Guru Worship related

[Guest guest]

Shree Hari

 

Ram Ram

 

Guru Govind dono khade kisko laagu pai

balihaari gurudev ki govind diyo bataaye.

 

Pujya Swamiji has spoken about this verse on many occasions, as this

statement is often misinterpreted by many.

 

What it means is that if the Guru gives you the darshan (vision) of

God and the Guru is also present at the same time, side by side

with God, then Guru is to be paid homage to first before God.

Dandvat pranaam is first to the Guru, (only when God is standing next to the

Guru) as the Guru has clearly given you the darshan of God. The caveat is if

the Guru and God are standing side by side and Guru has given you the darshan of

God, not otherwise.

 

Pujya Swamiji says that in this world that which is most excellent,

most eminent, the best of all, most honored etc. is extremely

rare, just like parasmani (the stone whose touch, coverts ordinary

metals to gold) is a rarity. Nature has shown us that the rare

things are so very hard to find. How many such gurus are there?

Such great Souls, Gurus, Sadgurus are an absolutely rarity. If we

find a real saint (Guru), we must definitely hold on to that one by

all means, i.e. the one who has given you the darshan of God.

 

Guru is the remover of darkness, and when this darkness is removed,

enlightment or realization is automatic. But until the darkness is

not removed, and the realization has not been attained, the person

cannot be called a Guru (or a Sadguru). Therefore a Guru cannot be

called a Guru until this process of God Realization is complete, as

he cannot be called the remover of darkness. Either the darkness is

removed or it is not.

 

When one goes to a shopkeeper to buy something and one pays money, but does not

receive the goods, then he has been cheated. Similarly a Guru who makes you a

disciple and doesn't give you darshan of God, i.e. you do not attain God

realization, then it is cheating. It closes your doors to other teachings etc.

 

A lion does not become a lion by wearing a costume of a lion. A guru by being

called a Guru, does not become a Guru. A gun

without the bullet, will make a loud noise when fired, but will not

pierce. A real saint is like a loaded gun which when released, will

not only awaken the inner quest for salvation with the loud bang,

but will pierce your inner being through and through (towards the goal of human

life). The impact will be significant. Therefore when Guru's life is lived by

his spoken words as per the scriptures, the results are automatically seen in

the disciples.

 

The main point that Pujya Swamiji emphasized is that Guru's work is

to make you meet God. And if he is unable to do that he is not a

Guru. Then what is the point of engaging in another

relationship? Why get caught up in another relationship, another

bondage ? Are we not experiencing enough bondages from

relationships in sansaar (this world) ? For a sadhak it is best to

have a relationship directly with God, but at the same time take

advantage of satsang of many saints, gurus etc. A true Guru, saint

will not limit a sadhak from gaining spiritual knowledge else where

or will not hide the real ways to God Realization. A true Guru's

only mission, only goal is looking towards the salvation of his

disciples. A true Guru if he himself is free, why would he make

anyone a slave, or bonded ? Pujya Swamiji therefore said it is best

that a sadhak get good points by listening to many sources (Guru /

God can come in many different forms) and adopt those teachings into your life

that make sense and touch one personally. But one must have relatiobship with

only GOD.

 

A true Guru will not make anyone a slave (chella) Even God

made Arjuna, His friend, not his chella (disciple). One learns more

when it comes out of a friend. Even God only taught as a friend.

God never stayed on higher level or a higher pedestal, from His

loved ones. Therefore Guru should be accessible like a friend, thus

making the teachings so easy to imbibe. Learning becomes natural

and effortless.

 

You said that the deha of Guru is not only a sthula deha. He is Chaitanya-Deha.

Yes absolutely... therefore why all that fuss over the body ? Eating his left

over food, drinking the tirtha of

his feet.... etc etc. If by eating leftovers and drinking water of Guru's feet,

salvation can be attained, then why salvation / realization has not taken place

so far in majority of the devotees who have been doing this for years ?

 

Krishnam Vande Jagat Guru. Krishna is Guru and Gita is the Mantra and with this

we can all attain upliftment, salvation / God Realization.

 

If there are any imperfections in expression, from Pujya Swamiji's

messages, I seek pardon.

 

Ram Ram

 

 

Prasanna Shembekar <she......com> wrote:

I do not agree with this point. One should worship his Guru, eat his

left overs, drink the tirtha of his feet.

Who has seen God ? But you can see a living being who is nothing

but God.

 

In adhyatma & especially in Bhakti Marga, Guru is the Sarvasva , he

is entity. Please refer to the scriptures of Saint Dnyaneshwar,

Tukaram and Samarth Ramdas Swami. Please refer to Sadguru

Bramhachaitanya Maharaj and Shri Swami Samartha. Also refer to the

Charitra of Shri sai BAba and Shri Sant Gajanan Maharaj of Shegaon.

 

The deha of Guru is not only a sthula deha. He is Chaitanya-Deha.

 

In fact I should say if God himself appears in front of you and your

Guru is also present there, then you should first bow in the feet of

Guru and then God.

 

This is not only my opinion but it is very important sutra in Bhakti

Marga.

Shri Ram.

 

Prasanna Shembekar

 

 

On 10/19/07, Sadhak < sadhak_insight wrote:

:Shree Hari:

 

18th October, 2007, Monday

Ashwin Krishna Panchami, Vikram Samvat 2064, Somvar

 

Question: To what extent is it appropriate to worship one's Guru, to

meditate on the Guru, to eat the left-overs off the Guru's plate, to

take the dust of his feet, or to drink the nectar-filled water after

washing his feet ?

 

Answer: All of this should be done only to God; just like one should

worship the form of God alone, one must meditate on God alone, one

must make an offering of food to God alone and then take that in as

God's offering (prasad). One must only pay homage and save the soil

of that land where God entered into His divine play. One must drink

the nectar from Shaligram stone. One must pay homage and revere

Gangaji herself, that touched the feet of the Lord. The point being

made here is, that God himself it the greatest and the purest. There

is no one like God, has never been, will never be, and can never be.

Therefore taking refuge in God, one must worship God alone, meditate

and do all else for God alone.

 

God's body is eternal and consciousness itself, but the bodies of

great souls are made of the five elements and therefore inert and

perishable. God is present everywhere as He pervades this entire

Universe; i.e. He is in the photograph, as well. But the all

pervasiveness of the great Souls (being separate from the body) is

within God's all pervasiveness. Within God are all the great Souls,

therefore by worshipping God, all the great Souls will be

automatically worshipped.

 

If instead one worships the picture of a Great Soul, and worships

the body of a Great Soul made of flesh and bones, then this will

become an obstacle in worship of God, which is totally against the

principles of great Souls. This is because great Souls come in to

this world, to bring human beings close to God, not to get people

attracted to and involved in themselves instead. One who attracts

others towards himself (to worship him, to meditate on him etc) is a

deceitful imposter.

 

In reality if one examines this further, then this body is nothing

but a machine producing excretion and sewage. Even when given the

best of best foods, it converts it into excretion and the best of

best sweet juices and nectar, comes out in the form of sewage ! As

long as there is life force, the body is a machine to manufacture

excretion and sewage. And once the life force leaves it, it is

nothing but a corpse. In reality, this body is dying at every

moment, it is becoming a corpse. One cannot take a picture of that

which is the essence within (the consciousness). A picture can only

be taken of that body which is changing every moment, and

continuosly perishing. Rather even immediately after taking a

picture, the body does not remain like the same as when the picture

was taken a few minutes back. Therefore worshipping a picture is

worshipping only the perishable. There is no life force in the

picture of a body, therefore picture of a body is like the

corpse of a corpse ! (to be continued)

 

From " Saccha Guru Kaun Hai " in Hindi pg 30 by Swami Ramsukhdasji

 

Ram Ram

 

For full online discourses in Hindi, please visit Swami

Ramsukhdasji's website.

 

http://www.swamiramsukhdasji.org

To gain clarification on related issues, please send your questions

to:

 

To read online spiritual books, please visit:

http://www.swamiramsukhdasji.org/swamijibooks/

To read all previous messages, please visit:

sadhaka/

P.S: Please pass on this message to whomever you think would benefit

from the same

[Guest guest]

All arguments come to an end when one realizes that we are not debating making a choice between Guru and God, but we are debating on who comes first Guru or God. Besides this verse taken literally means we are making guru and God embodied souls standing in front of us. The prostration is not to the mere body of the Guru or God but to divine which is both same in Guru and God. And since Guru has facilitated God realization therefore it is to the Guru that we bow first. This is my humble submission. I hope all agree with this simple interpretation.

 

 

 

Sincerely,

Dr. Vispi Jokhi

-----------

 

Prasanna Shembekar

I think our views on Guru are not matching at all. You say a Guru can be called as Guru only when he removes the darkness within you. This contradicts with the whole concept of Guru. A Guru is a Guru who meets you in darkness and takes you with him towards light. When you get enlightened , you actually merge in your Guru's Swarupa.

 

Shri Ram

 

-----------

----

 

 

sadhak_insight

10/21/2007 3:52:53 PM

 

Guru Worship related

 

 

Shree Hari Ram Ram Guru Govind dono khade kisko laagu paibalihaari gurudev ki govind diyo bataaye. Pujya Swamiji has spoken about this verse on many occasions, as this statement is often misinterpreted by many. What it means is that if the Guru gives you the darshan (vision) of God and the Guru is also present at the same time, side by side with God, then Guru is to be paid homage to first before God. Dandvat pranaam is first to the Guru, (only when God is standing next to the Guru) as the Guru has clearly given you the darshan of God. The caveat is if the Guru and God are standing side by side and Guru has given you the darshan of God, not otherwise. Pujya Swamiji says that in this world that which is most excellent, most eminent, the best of all, most honored etc. is extremely rare, just like parasmani (the stone whose touch, coverts ordinary metals to gold) is a rarity. Nature has shown us that the rare things are so very hard to find. How many such gurus are there? Such great Souls, Gurus, Sadgurus are an absolutely rarity. If we find a real saint (Guru), we must definitely hold on to that one by all means, i.e. the one who has given you the darshan of God. Guru is the remover of darkness, and when this darkness is removed, enlightment or realization is automatic. But until the darkness is not removed, and the realization has not been attained, the person cannot be called a Guru (or a Sadguru). Therefore a Guru cannot be called a Guru until this process of God Realization is complete, as he cannot be called the remover of darkness. Either the darkness is removed or it is not. When one goes to a shopkeeper to buy something and one pays money, but does not receive the goods, then he has been cheated. Similarly a Guru who makes you a disciple and doesn't give you darshan of God, i.e. you do not attain God realization, then it is cheating. It closes your doors to other teachings etc. A lion does not become a lion by wearing a costume of a lion. A guru by being called a Guru, does not become a Guru. A gun without the bullet, will make a loud noise when fired, but will not pierce. A real saint is like a loaded gun which when released, will not only awaken the inner quest for salvation with the loud bang, but will pierce your inner being through and through (towards the goal of human life). The impact will be significant. Therefore when Guru's life is lived by his spoken words as per the scriptures, the results are automatically seen in the disciples. The main point that Pujya Swamiji emphasized is that Guru's work is to make you meet God. And if he is unable to do that he is not a Guru. Then what is the point of engaging in another relationship? Why get caught up in another relationship, another bondage ? Are we not experiencing enough bondages from relationships in sansaar (this world) ? For a sadhak it is best to have a relationship directly with God, but at the same time take advantage of satsang of many saints, gurus etc. A true Guru, saint will not limit a sadhak from gaining spiritual knowledge else where or will not hide the real ways to God Realization. A true Guru's only mission, only goal is looking towards the salvation of his disciples. A true Guru if he himself is free, why would he make anyone a slave, or bonded ? Pujya Swamiji therefore said it is best that a sadhak get good points by listening to many sources (Guru / God can come in many different forms) and adopt those teachings into your life that make sense and touch one personally. But one must have relatiobship with only GOD. A true Guru will not make anyone a slave (chella) Even God made Arjuna, His friend, not his chella (disciple). One learns more when it comes out of a friend. Even God only taught as a friend. God never stayed on higher level or a higher pedestal, from His loved ones. Therefore Guru should be accessible like a friend, thus making the teachings so easy to imbibe. Learning becomes natural and effortless. You said that the deha of Guru is not only a sthula deha. He is Chaitanya-Deha. Yes absolutely... therefore why all that fuss over the body ? Eating his left over food, drinking the tirtha of his feet.... etc etc. If by eating leftovers and drinking water of Guru's feet, salvation can be attained, then why salvation / realization has not taken place so far in majority of the devotees who have been doing this for years ? Krishnam Vande Jagat Guru. Krishna is Guru and Gita is the Mantra and with this we can all attain upliftment, salvation / God Realization. If there are any imperfections in expression, from Pujya Swamiji's messages, I seek pardon. Ram Ram Prasanna Shembekar <she......com> wrote:I do not agree with this point. One should worship his Guru, eat his left overs, drink the tirtha of his feet.Who has seen God ? But you can see a living being who is nothing but God.In adhyatma & especially in Bhakti Marga, Guru is the Sarvasva , he is entity. Please refer to the scriptures of Saint Dnyaneshwar, Tukaram and Samarth Ramdas Swami. Please refer to Sadguru Bramhachaitanya Maharaj and Shri Swami Samartha. Also refer to the Charitra of Shri sai BAba and Shri Sant Gajanan Maharaj of Shegaon. The deha of Guru is not only a sthula deha. He is Chaitanya-Deha. In fact I should say if God himself appears in front of you and your Guru is also present there, then you should first bow in the feet of Guru and then God. This is not only my opinion but it is very important sutra in Bhakti Marga.Shri Ram.Prasanna ShembekarOn 10/19/07, Sadhak < sadhak_insight > wrote: :Shree Hari:18th October, 2007, MondayAshwin Krishna Panchami, Vikram Samvat 2064, Somvar Question: To what extent is it appropriate to worship one's Guru, to meditate on the Guru, to eat the left-overs off the Guru's plate, to take the dust of his feet, or to drink the nectar-filled water after washing his feet ? Answer: All of this should be done only to God; just like one should worship the form of God alone, one must meditate on God alone, one must make an offering of food to God alone and then take that in as God's offering (prasad). One must only pay homage and save the soil of that land where God entered into His divine play. One must drink the nectar from Shaligram stone. One must pay homage and revere Gangaji herself, that touched the feet of the Lord. The point being made here is, that God himself it the greatest and the purest. There is no one like God, has never been, will never be, and can never be. Therefore taking refuge in God, one must worship God alone, meditate and do all else for God alone. God's body is eternal and consciousness itself, but the bodies of great souls are made of the five elements and therefore inert and perishable. God is present everywhere as He pervades this entire Universe; i.e. He is in the photograph, as well. But the all pervasiveness of the great Souls (being separate from the body) is within God's all pervasiveness. Within God are all the great Souls, therefore by worshipping God, all the great Souls will be automatically worshipped. If instead one worships the picture of a Great Soul, and worships the body of a Great Soul made of flesh and bones, then this will become an obstacle in worship of God, which is totally against the principles of great Souls. This is because great Souls come in to this world, to bring human beings close to God, not to get people attracted to and involved in themselves instead. One who attracts others towards himself (to worship him, to meditate on him etc) is a deceitful imposter. In reality if one examines this further, then this body is nothing but a machine producing excretion and sewage. Even when given the best of best foods, it converts it into excretion and the best of best sweet juices and nectar, comes out in the form of sewage ! As long as there is life force, the body is a machine to manufacture excretion and sewage. And once the life force leaves it, it is nothing but a corpse. In reality, this body is dying at every moment, it is becoming a corpse. One cannot take a picture of that which is the essence within (the consciousness). A picture can only be taken of that body which is changing every moment, and continuosly perishing. Rather even immediately after taking a picture, the body does not remain like the same as when the picture was taken a few minutes back. Therefore worshipping a picture is worshipping only the perishable. There is no life force in the picture of a body, therefore picture of a body is like the corpse of a corpse ! (to be continued) From "Saccha Guru Kaun Hai" in Hindi pg 30 by Swami RamsukhdasjiRam RamFor full online discourses in Hindi, please visit Swami Ramsukhdasji's website.http://www.swamiramsukhdasji.orgTo gain clarification on related issues, please send your questions to: To read online spiritual books, please visit:http://www.swamiramsukhdasji.org/swamijibooks/To read all previous messages, please visit:sadhaka/P.S: Please pass on this message to whomever you think would benefit from the same

[Guest guest]

Samyak Darshan

 

Dear Shri Ram Ram,

 

Nice that Guru and his worship is finding a place of discussion table.

 

Guru as it is understood as venerable one and is one of the instrumental causes

for educating the less informed to learn what is necessary for the liberation -

Moksha - end of birth and death.

 

Guru is one who has information to remove or eliminate the darkness of ignorance

of Self- Soul.

 

Guru – Gu = darkness + ru = remover.

 

All other teachers who impart worldly knowledge are also called as Gurus but

that is worldly expression.

 

If this statement is acceptable, then let Guru’s roll be analyzed:

 

Quote:

Guru is the remover of darkness, and when this darkness is removed,

enlightment or realization is automatic. But until the darkness is

not removed, and the realization has not been attained, the person

cannot be called a Guru (or a Sadguru). Therefore a Guru cannot be

called a Guru until this process of God Realization is complete, as

he cannot be called the remover of darkness. Either the darkness is

removed or it is not. Unquote.

 

Guru may have placed all that he has at his disposal for the understanding of

the subject. However, how much is understood, how less understood, whether

understood at all, depends entirely upon the disciple, could there be any

disagreement?

 

In case, Guru had the capacity to make all those who listen to him to understand

him the way he had meant, then the differences in understanding or perceiving in

all the disciples would not exist, right. However, in reality it is not so.

 

That explains the inequality / individuality in intelligence / intellect of

every human soul.

 

Therefore, Guru is one of the instrumental causes – ‘nimitta kaaran’, of the

many that provided conducive atmosphere for enabling the individual to

understand Guru’s sermon.

 

Nonetheless, the disciple carries in him a feeling of gratitude for all that he

had from Guru and hence due to that ‘vinaya’ he pays homage to him and even go

to the extent of eulogizing him that but for Guru he/she would not have learnt

the subject. This can be more a

formal respect expected of the individual in the worldly transactions.

 

Capability to ‘understand’ is a singular and unique characteristic of the

individual and is neither lendable nor donable. This is the substantial cause

(upaadhan kaaran) for understanding the Guru’s sermon.

 

Attempt is made to present the best that is known and it is likely that it may

be falling short of one’s expectation and information. It is earnest and sincere

request to bring out the defects and insufficiencies thereby help understanding

better.

 

Welcome for any further clarification. Truth is of Kevalin and the rest are

mine. Wishing you all the best for the early dawn of

Samykathva. Now, it is, for the participants to come up.

 

Yours brotherly,

Sreepalan

 

 

--- sadhak_insight <sadhak_insight wrote:

 

> Shree Hari

>

> Ram Ram

>

> Guru Govind dono khade kisko laagu pai

> balihaari gurudev ki govind diyo bataaye.

>

> Pujya Swamiji has spoken about this verse on many

> occasions, as this

> statement is often misinterpreted by many.

>

> What it means is that if the Guru gives you the

> darshan (vision) of

> God and the Guru is also present at the same time,

> side by side

> with God, then Guru is to be paid homage to first

> before God.

> Dandvat pranaam is first to the Guru, (only when God

> is standing next to the Guru) as the Guru has

> clearly given you the darshan of God. The caveat is

> if the Guru and God are standing side by side and

> Guru has given you the darshan of God, not

> otherwise.

>

> Pujya Swamiji says that in this world that which is

> most excellent,

> most eminent, the best of all, most honored etc. is

> extremely

> rare, just like parasmani (the stone whose touch,

> coverts ordinary

> metals to gold) is a rarity. Nature has shown us

> that the rare

> things are so very hard to find. How many such

> gurus are there?

> Such great Souls, Gurus, Sadgurus are an absolutely

> rarity. If we

> find a real saint (Guru), we must definitely hold on

> to that one by

> all means, i.e. the one who has given you the

> darshan of God.

>

> Guru is the remover of darkness, and when this

> darkness is removed,

> enlightment or realization is automatic. But until

> the darkness is

> not removed, and the realization has not been

> attained, the person

> cannot be called a Guru (or a Sadguru). Therefore a

> Guru cannot be

> called a Guru until this process of God Realization

> is complete, as

> he cannot be called the remover of darkness. Either

> the darkness is

> removed or it is not.

>

> When one goes to a shopkeeper to buy something and

> one pays money, but does not receive the goods, then

> he has been cheated. Similarly a Guru who makes you

> a disciple and doesn't give you darshan of God, i.e.

> you do not attain God realization, then it is

> cheating. It closes your doors to other teachings

> etc.

>

> A lion does not become a lion by wearing a costume

> of a lion. A guru by being called a Guru, does not

> become a Guru. A gun

> without the bullet, will make a loud noise when

> fired, but will not

> pierce. A real saint is like a loaded gun which

> when released, will

> not only awaken the inner quest for salvation with

> the loud bang,

> but will pierce your inner being through and through

> (towards the goal of human life). The impact will

> be significant. Therefore when Guru's life is lived

> by his spoken words as per the scriptures, the

> results are automatically seen in the disciples.

>

> The main point that Pujya Swamiji emphasized is that

> Guru's work is

> to make you meet God. And if he is unable to do

> that he is not a

> Guru. Then what is the point of engaging in another

> relationship? Why get caught up in another

> relationship, another

> bondage ? Are we not experiencing enough bondages

> from

> relationships in sansaar (this world) ? For a

> sadhak it is best to

> have a relationship directly with God, but at the

> same time take

> advantage of satsang of many saints, gurus etc. A

> true Guru, saint

> will not limit a sadhak from gaining spiritual

> knowledge else where

> or will not hide the real ways to God Realization.

> A true Guru's

> only mission, only goal is looking towards the

> salvation of his

> disciples. A true Guru if he himself is free, why

> would he make

> anyone a slave, or bonded ? Pujya Swamiji therefore

> said it is best

> that a sadhak get good points by listening to many

> sources (Guru /

> God can come in many different forms) and adopt

> those teachings into your life that make sense and

> touch one personally. But one must have

> relatiobship with only GOD.

>

> A true Guru will not make anyone a slave (chella)

> Even God

> made Arjuna, His friend, not his chella (disciple).

> One learns more

> when it comes out of a friend. Even God only taught

> as a friend.

> God never stayed on higher level or a higher

> pedestal, from His

> loved ones. Therefore Guru should be accessible

> like a friend, thus

> making the teachings so easy to imbibe. Learning

> becomes natural

> and effortless.

>

> You said that the deha of Guru is not only a sthula

> deha. He is Chaitanya-Deha. Yes absolutely...

> therefore why all that fuss over the body ? Eating

> his left over food, drinking the tirtha of

> his feet.... etc etc. If by eating leftovers and

> drinking water of Guru's feet, salvation can be

> attained, then why salvation / realization has not

> taken place so far in majority of the devotees who

> have been doing this for years ?

>

> Krishnam Vande Jagat Guru. Krishna is Guru and Gita

> is the Mantra and with this we can all attain

> upliftment, salvation / God Realization.

>

> If there are any imperfections in expression, from

> Pujya Swamiji's

> messages, I seek pardon.

>

> Ram Ram

>

>

> Prasanna Shembekar <she......com> wrote:

> I do not agree with this point. One should worship

> his Guru, eat his

> left overs, drink the tirtha of his feet.

> Who has seen God ? But you can see a living being

> who is nothing

> but God.

>

> In adhyatma & especially in Bhakti Marga, Guru is

> the Sarvasva , he

> is entity. Please refer to the scriptures of Saint

> Dnyaneshwar,

> Tukaram and Samarth Ramdas Swami. Please refer to

> Sadguru

> Bramhachaitanya Maharaj and Shri Swami Samartha.

> Also refer to the

> Charitra of Shri sai BAba and Shri Sant Gajanan

> Maharaj of Shegaon.

>

> The deha of Guru is not only a sthula deha. He is

> Chaitanya-Deha.

>

> In fact I should say if God himself appears in front

> of you and your

> Guru is also present there, then you should first

> bow in the feet of

> Guru and then God.

>

> This is not only my opinion but it is very important

> sutra in Bhakti

> Marga.

> Shri Ram.

>

> Prasanna Shembekar

>

>

> On 10/19/07, Sadhak < sadhak_insight

> wrote:

> :Shree Hari:

>

> 18th October, 2007, Monday

> Ashwin Krishna Panchami, Vikram Samvat 2064, Somvar

>

> Question: To what extent is it appropriate to

> worship one's Guru, to

> meditate on the Guru, to eat the left-overs off the

> Guru's plate, to

> take the dust of his feet, or to drink the

> nectar-filled water after

> washing his feet ?

>

> Answer: All of this should be done only to God; just

> like one should

> worship the form of God alone, one must meditate on

> God alone, one

> must make an offering of food to God alone and then

> take

=== message truncated ===

[Guest guest]

A similar discussion took place once between a great Guru and the best of disciples; when asked who comes first (in the sense whom sishya should prostrate to first), Guru replied "do not worry & prostrate without hesitation at God's feet because you will find that I am already at God's feet in the same position".

 

Can you guess who that Guru is?

 

regards,

Mallikarjuna Rao

Vispi Jokhi <vhjokhi Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2007 9:56:45 AMRe: Guru Worship related

 

 

 

 

 

 

All arguments come to an end when one realizes that we are not debating making a choice between Guru and God, but we are debating on who comes first Guru or God. Besides this verse taken literally means we are making guru and God embodied souls standing in front of us. The prostration is not to the mere body of the Guru or God but to divine which is both same in Guru and God. And since Guru has facilitated God realization therefore it is to the Guru that we bow first. This is my humble submission. I hope all agree with this simple interpretation.

 

 

 

Sincerely,

Dr. Vispi Jokhi

------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --

Prasanna Shembekar I think our views on Guru are not matching at all. You say a Guru can be called as Guru only when he removes the darkness within you. This contradicts with the whole concept of Guru. A Guru is a Guru who meets you in darkness and takes you with him towards light. When you get enlightened , you actually merge in your Guru's Swarupa.

Shri Ram

 

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-- --

 

 

sadhak_insight

10/21/2007 3:52:53 PM

@grou ps.com

Guru Worship related

 

 

Shree Hari Ram Ram Guru Govind dono khade kisko laagu paibalihaari gurudev ki govind diyo bataaye. Pujya Swamiji has spoken about this verse on many occasions, as this statement is often misinterpreted by many. What it means is that if the Guru gives you the darshan (vision) of God and the Guru is also present at the same time, side by side with God, then Guru is to be paid homage to first before God. Dandvat pranaam is first to the Guru, (only when God is standing next to the Guru) as the Guru has clearly given you the darshan of God. The caveat is if the Guru and God are standing side by side and Guru has given you the darshan of God, not otherwise. Pujya Swamiji says that in this world that which is most excellent, most eminent, the best of all, most honored etc. is extremely rare, just like parasmani (the stone whose touch, coverts ordinary metals to gold) is a rarity. Nature

has shown us that the rare things are so very hard to find. How many such gurus are there? Such great Souls, Gurus, Sadgurus are an absolutely rarity. If we find a real saint (Guru), we must definitely hold on to that one by all means, i.e. the one who has given you the darshan of God. Guru is the remover of darkness, and when this darkness is removed, enlightment or realization is automatic. But until the darkness is not removed, and the realization has not been attained, the person cannot be called a Guru (or a Sadguru). Therefore a Guru cannot be called a Guru until this process of God Realization is complete, as he cannot be called the remover of darkness. Either the darkness is removed or it is not. When one goes to a shopkeeper to buy something and one pays money, but does not receive the goods, then he has been cheated. Similarly a Guru who makes you a disciple and doesn't give you darshan

of God, i.e. you do not attain God realization, then it is cheating. It closes your doors to other teachings etc. A lion does not become a lion by wearing a costume of a lion. A guru by being called a Guru, does not become a Guru. A gun without the bullet, will make a loud noise when fired, but will not pierce. A real saint is like a loaded gun which when released, will not only awaken the inner quest for salvation with the loud bang, but will pierce your inner being through and through (towards the goal of human life). The impact will be significant. Therefore when Guru's life is lived by his spoken words as per the scriptures, the results are automatically seen in the disciples. The main point that Pujya Swamiji emphasized is that Guru's work is to make you meet God. And if he is unable to do that he is not a Guru. Then what is the point of engaging in another relationship? Why get caught up in another

relationship, another bondage ? Are we not experiencing enough bondages from relationships in sansaar (this world) ? For a sadhak it is best to have a relationship directly with God, but at the same time take advantage of satsang of many saints, gurus etc. A true Guru, saint will not limit a sadhak from gaining spiritual knowledge else where or will not hide the real ways to God Realization. A true Guru's only mission, only goal is looking towards the salvation of his disciples. A true Guru if he himself is free, why would he make anyone a slave, or bonded ? Pujya Swamiji therefore said it is best that a sadhak get good points by listening to many sources (Guru / God can come in many different forms) and adopt those teachings into your life that make sense and touch one personally. But one must have relatiobship with only GOD. A true Guru will not make anyone a slave (chella) Even God made Arjuna,

His friend, not his chella (disciple). One learns more when it comes out of a friend. Even God only taught as a friend. God never stayed on higher level or a higher pedestal, from His loved ones. Therefore Guru should be accessible like a friend, thus making the teachings so easy to imbibe. Learning becomes natural and effortless. You said that the deha of Guru is not only a sthula deha. He is Chaitanya-Deha. Yes absolutely.. . therefore why all that fuss over the body ? Eating his left over food, drinking the tirtha of his feet.... etc etc. If by eating leftovers and drinking water of Guru's feet, salvation can be attained, then why salvation / realization has not taken place so far in majority of the devotees who have been doing this for years ? Krishnam Vande Jagat Guru. Krishna is Guru and Gita is the Mantra and with this we can all attain upliftment, salvation / God Realization. If there are any

imperfections in expression, from Pujya Swamiji's messages, I seek pardon. Ram Ram Prasanna Shembekar <she.... ..com> wrote:I do not agree with this point. One should worship his Guru, eat his left overs, drink the tirtha of his feet.Who has seen God ? But you can see a living being who is nothing but God.In adhyatma & especially in Bhakti Marga, Guru is the Sarvasva , he is entity. Please refer to the scriptures of Saint Dnyaneshwar, Tukaram and Samarth Ramdas Swami. Please refer to Sadguru Bramhachaitanya Maharaj and Shri Swami Samartha. Also refer to the Charitra of Shri sai BAba and Shri Sant Gajanan Maharaj of Shegaon. The deha of Guru is not only a sthula deha. He is Chaitanya-Deha. In fact I should say if God himself appears in front of you and your Guru is also present there, then you should first bow in the feet of Guru and then God. This

is not only my opinion but it is very important sutra in Bhakti Marga.Shri Ram.Prasanna ShembekarOn 10/19/07, Sadhak < sadhak_insight@ > wrote: :Shree Hari:18th October, 2007, MondayAshwin Krishna Panchami, Vikram Samvat 2064, Somvar Question: To what extent is it appropriate to worship one's Guru, to meditate on the Guru, to eat the left-overs off the Guru's plate, to take the dust of his feet, or to drink the nectar-filled water after washing his feet ? Answer: All of this should be done only to God; just like one should worship the form of God alone, one must meditate on God alone, one must make an offering of food to God alone and then take that in as God's offering (prasad). One must only pay homage and save the soil of that land

where God entered into His divine play. One must drink the nectar from Shaligram stone. One must pay homage and revere Gangaji herself, that touched the feet of the Lord. The point being made here is, that God himself it the greatest and the purest. There is no one like God, has never been, will never be, and can never be. Therefore taking refuge in God, one must worship God alone, meditate and do all else for God alone. God's body is eternal and consciousness itself, but the bodies of great souls are made of the five elements and therefore inert and perishable. God is present everywhere as He pervades this entire Universe; i.e. He is in the photograph, as well. But the all pervasiveness of the great Souls (being separate from the body) is within God's all pervasiveness. Within God are all the great Souls, therefore by worshipping God, all the great Souls will be automatically worshipped.

If instead one worships the picture of a Great Soul, and worships the body of a Great Soul made of flesh and bones, then this will become an obstacle in worship of God, which is totally against the principles of great Souls. This is because great Souls come in to this world, to bring human beings close to God, not to get people attracted to and involved in themselves instead. One who attracts others towards himself (to worship him, to meditate on him etc) is a deceitful imposter. In reality if one examines this further, then this body is nothing but a machine producing excretion and sewage. Even when given the best of best foods, it converts it into excretion and the best of best sweet juices and nectar, comes out in the form of sewage ! As long as there is life force, the body is a machine to manufacture excretion and sewage. And once the life force leaves it, it is nothing but a

corpse. In reality, this body is dying at every moment, it is becoming a corpse. One cannot take a picture of that which is the essence within (the consciousness) . A picture can only be taken of that body which is changing every moment, and continuosly perishing. Rather even immediately after taking a picture, the body does not remain like the same as when the picture was taken a few minutes back. Therefore worshipping a picture is worshipping only the perishable. There is no life force in the picture of a body, therefore picture of a body is like the corpse of a corpse ! (to be continued) From "Saccha Guru Kaun Hai" in Hindi pg 30 by Swami RamsukhdasjiRam RamFor full online discourses in Hindi, please visit Swami Ramsukhdasji' s website.http://www.swamiram sukhdasji. orgTo gain clarification on related

issues, please send your questions to: @grou ps.comTo read online spiritual books, please visit:http://www.swamiram sukhdasji. org/swamijibooks /To read all previous messages, please visit:http://groups. / group/sadhaka/P.S: Please pass on this message to whomever you think would benefit from the same

 

[Guest guest]

Jai Sadasiva , Om Namah Shivay!

enjoyed reading all.

Only one question.

What is the one that can see Guru in all? Do you see Guru in all before you see God in all?

Jai Guru Datta Sree Guru Datta

 

 

Sreepalan VC <sreepal5058 Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2007 8:32:44 AMRe: Guru Worship related

 

Samyak DarshanDear Shri Ram Ram,Nice that Guru and his worship is finding a place of discussion table.Guru as it is understood as venerable one and is one of the instrumental causes for educating the less informed to learn what is necessary for the liberation - Moksha - end of birth and death. Guru is one who has information to remove or eliminate the darkness of ignorance of Self- Soul. Guru – Gu = darkness + ru = remover.All other teachers who impart worldly knowledge are also called as Gurus but that is worldly expression.If this statement is acceptable, then let Guru’s roll be analyzed:Quote:Guru is the remover of darkness, and when this darkness is removed, enlightment or realization is automatic. But until the darkness is not removed, and the realization has not been attained, the person cannot be called a Guru (or a Sadguru). Therefore a Guru cannot be

called a Guru until this process of God Realization is complete, as he cannot be called the remover of darkness. Either the darkness is removed or it is not. Unquote.Guru may have placed all that he has at his disposal for the understanding of the subject. However, how much is understood, how less understood, whether understood at all, depends entirely upon the disciple, could there be any disagreement? In case, Guru had the capacity to make all those who listen to him to understand him the way he had meant, then the differences in understanding or perceiving in all the disciples would not exist, right. However, in reality it is not so. That explains the inequality / individuality in intelligence / intellect of every human soul.Therefore, Guru is one of the instrumental causes – ‘nimitta kaaran’, of the many that provided conducive atmosphere for enabling the individual to understand Guru’s sermon.

Nonetheless, the disciple carries in him a feeling of gratitude for all that he had from Guru and hence due to that ‘vinaya’ he pays homage to him and even go to the extent of eulogizing him that but for Guru he/she would not have learnt the subject. This can be more aformal respect expected of the individual in the worldly transactions.Capability to ‘understand’ is a singular and unique characteristic of the individual and is neither lendable nor donable. This is the substantial cause (upaadhan kaaran) for understanding the Guru’s sermon.Attempt is made to present the best that is known and it is likely that it may be falling short of one’s expectation and information. It is earnest and sincere request to bring out the defects and insufficiencies thereby help understanding better.Welcome for any further clarification. Truth is of Kevalin and the rest are mine. Wishing you all the best for the early dawn

ofSamykathva. Now, it is, for the participants to come up. Yours brotherly,Sreepalan--- sadhak_insight <sadhak_insight@ > wrote:> Shree Hari> > Ram Ram> > Guru Govind dono khade kisko laagu pai> balihaari gurudev ki govind diyo bataaye.> > Pujya Swamiji has spoken about this verse on many> occasions, as this> statement is often misinterpreted by many.> > What it means is that if the Guru gives you the> darshan (vision) of> God and the Guru is also present at the same time,> side by side> with God, then Guru is to be paid homage to first> before God.> Dandvat pranaam is first to the Guru, (only when God> is standing next to the Guru) as the Guru has> clearly

given you the darshan of God. The caveat is> if the Guru and God are standing side by side and> Guru has given you the darshan of God, not> otherwise.> > Pujya Swamiji says that in this world that which is> most excellent,> most eminent, the best of all, most honored etc. is> extremely> rare, just like parasmani (the stone whose touch,> coverts ordinary> metals to gold) is a rarity. Nature has shown us> that the rare> things are so very hard to find. How many such> gurus are there?> Such great Souls, Gurus, Sadgurus are an absolutely> rarity. If we> find a real saint (Guru), we must definitely hold on> to that one by> all means, i.e. the one who has given you the> darshan of God.> > Guru is the remover of darkness, and when this> darkness is removed,> enlightment or realization is

automatic. But until> the darkness is> not removed, and the realization has not been> attained, the person> cannot be called a Guru (or a Sadguru). Therefore a> Guru cannot be> called a Guru until this process of God Realization> is complete, as> he cannot be called the remover of darkness. Either> the darkness is> removed or it is not.> > When one goes to a shopkeeper to buy something and> one pays money, but does not receive the goods, then> he has been cheated. Similarly a Guru who makes you> a disciple and doesn't give you darshan of God, i.e.> you do not attain God realization, then it is> cheating. It closes your doors to other teachings > etc.> > A lion does not become a lion by wearing a costume> of a lion. A guru by being called a Guru, does not> become a Guru. A gun> without the

bullet, will make a loud noise when> fired, but will not> pierce. A real saint is like a loaded gun which> when released, will> not only awaken the inner quest for salvation with> the loud bang,> but will pierce your inner being through and through> (towards the goal of human life). The impact will> be significant. Therefore when Guru's life is lived> by his spoken words as per the scriptures, the> results are automatically seen in the disciples.> > The main point that Pujya Swamiji emphasized is that> Guru's work is> to make you meet God. And if he is unable to do> that he is not a> Guru. Then what is the point of engaging in another> relationship? Why get caught up in another> relationship, another> bondage ? Are we not experiencing enough bondages> from> relationships in sansaar (this world) ? For

a> sadhak it is best to> have a relationship directly with God, but at the> same time take> advantage of satsang of many saints, gurus etc. A> true Guru, saint> will not limit a sadhak from gaining spiritual> knowledge else where> or will not hide the real ways to God Realization. > A true Guru's> only mission, only goal is looking towards the> salvation of his> disciples. A true Guru if he himself is free, why> would he make> anyone a slave, or bonded ? Pujya Swamiji therefore> said it is best> that a sadhak get good points by listening to many> sources (Guru /> God can come in many different forms) and adopt> those teachings into your life that make sense and> touch one personally. But one must have> relatiobship with only GOD.> > A true Guru will not make anyone a slave (chella)> Even

God> made Arjuna, His friend, not his chella (disciple). > One learns more> when it comes out of a friend. Even God only taught> as a friend.> God never stayed on higher level or a higher> pedestal, from His> loved ones. Therefore Guru should be accessible> like a friend, thus> making the teachings so easy to imbibe. Learning> becomes natural> and effortless.> > You said that the deha of Guru is not only a sthula> deha. He is Chaitanya-Deha. Yes absolutely.. .> therefore why all that fuss over the body ? Eating> his left over food, drinking the tirtha of> his feet.... etc etc. If by eating leftovers and> drinking water of Guru's feet, salvation can be> attained, then why salvation / realization has not> taken place so far in majority of the devotees who> have been doing this for years ?> >

Krishnam Vande Jagat Guru. Krishna is Guru and Gita> is the Mantra and with this we can all attain> upliftment, salvation / God Realization.> > If there are any imperfections in expression, from> Pujya Swamiji's> messages, I seek pardon.> > Ram Ram> > > Prasanna Shembekar <she.... ..com> wrote:> I do not agree with this point. One should worship> his Guru, eat his> left overs, drink the tirtha of his feet.> Who has seen God ? But you can see a living being> who is nothing> but God.> > In adhyatma & especially in Bhakti Marga, Guru is> the Sarvasva , he> is entity. Please refer to the scriptures of Saint> Dnyaneshwar,> Tukaram and Samarth Ramdas Swami. Please refer to> Sadguru> Bramhachaitanya Maharaj and Shri Swami Samartha.> Also refer to the> Charitra

of Shri sai BAba and Shri Sant Gajanan> Maharaj of Shegaon.> > The deha of Guru is not only a sthula deha. He is> Chaitanya-Deha.> > In fact I should say if God himself appears in front> of you and your> Guru is also present there, then you should first> bow in the feet of> Guru and then God.> > This is not only my opinion but it is very important> sutra in Bhakti> Marga.> Shri Ram.> > Prasanna Shembekar> > > On 10/19/07, Sadhak < sadhak_insight@ >> wrote:> :Shree Hari:> > 18th October, 2007, Monday> Ashwin Krishna Panchami, Vikram Samvat 2064, Somvar> > Question: To what extent is it appropriate to> worship one's Guru,

to> meditate on the Guru, to eat the left-overs off the> Guru's plate, to> take the dust of his feet, or to drink the> nectar-filled water after> washing his feet ?> > Answer: All of this should be done only to God; just> like one should> worship the form of God alone, one must meditate on> God alone, one> must make an offering of food to God alone and then> take === message truncated

[Guest guest]

Sri Krishnam Vande Jagat Gurummallik kotamarti <mkotamarti wrote: A similar discussion took place once between a great Guru and the best of disciples; when asked who comes first (in the sense whom sishya should prostrate to first), Guru replied "do not worry & prostrate without hesitation at God's feet because you will find that I am already at God's

feet in the same position". Can you guess who that Guru is? regards, Mallikarjuna Rao Vispi Jokhi <vhjokhi > Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2007 9:56:45 AMRe: Guru Worship related All arguments come to an end when one realizes that we are not debating making a choice between Guru and God, but we are debating on who comes first Guru or God. Besides this verse taken literally means we are making guru and God embodied souls standing in front of us. The prostration is not to the mere body of the Guru or God but to divine which is both same in Guru and God. And since Guru has facilitated God realization therefore it is to the Guru that we bow first. This is my humble submission. I hope all agree with this simple interpretation. Sincerely, Dr. Vispi Jokhi ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -- Prasanna Shembekar I think our views on Guru are not matching at

all. You say a Guru can be called as Guru only when he removes the darkness within you. This contradicts with the whole concept of Guru. A Guru is a Guru who meets you in darkness and takes you with him towards light. When you get enlightened , you actually merge in your Guru's Swarupa. Shri Ram ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -- -- -- sadhak_insight 10/21/2007 3:52:53 PM @grou ps.com Guru Worship related Shree Hari Ram Ram Guru Govind dono khade kisko laagu paibalihaari gurudev ki govind diyo bataaye. Pujya Swamiji has spoken about this verse on many occasions, as this statement is often misinterpreted by many. What it means is that if the Guru gives you the darshan (vision) of God and the Guru is also present at the same time, side by side with God, then Guru is to be paid homage to first before God. Dandvat pranaam is first to the Guru, (only when God is standing next to the Guru) as the Guru has clearly given you the darshan of God. The caveat is if the Guru and God are standing side by side and Guru has given you the darshan of God, not otherwise. Pujya Swamiji says that in this

world that which is most excellent, most eminent, the best of all, most honored etc. is extremely rare, just like parasmani (the stone whose touch, coverts ordinary metals to gold) is a rarity. Nature has shown us that the rare things are so very hard to find. How many such gurus are there? Such great Souls, Gurus, Sadgurus are an absolutely rarity. If we find a real saint (Guru), we must definitely hold on to that one by all means, i.e. the one who has given you the darshan of God. Guru is the remover of darkness, and when this darkness is removed, enlightment or realization is automatic. But until the darkness is not removed, and the realization has not been attained, the person cannot be called a Guru (or a Sadguru). Therefore a Guru cannot be called a Guru until this process of God Realization is complete, as he cannot be called the remover of darkness. Either the darkness is removed or it is not. When

one goes to a shopkeeper to buy something and one pays money, but does not receive the goods, then he has been cheated. Similarly a Guru who makes you a disciple and doesn't give you darshan of God, i.e. you do not attain God realization, then it is cheating. It closes your doors to other teachings etc. A lion does not become a lion by wearing a costume of a lion. A guru by being called a Guru, does not become a Guru. A gun without the bullet, will make a loud noise when fired, but will not pierce. A real saint is like a loaded gun which when released, will not only awaken the inner quest for salvation with the loud bang, but will pierce your inner being through and through (towards the goal of human life). The impact will be significant. Therefore when Guru's life is lived by his spoken words as per the scriptures, the results are automatically seen in the disciples. The main point that Pujya Swamiji emphasized is that Guru's work is to

make you meet God. And if he is unable to do that he is not a Guru. Then what is the point of engaging in another relationship? Why get caught up in another relationship, another bondage ? Are we not experiencing enough bondages from relationships in sansaar (this world) ? For a sadhak it is best to have a relationship directly with God, but at the same time take advantage of satsang of many saints, gurus etc. A true Guru, saint will not limit a sadhak from gaining spiritual knowledge else where or will not hide the real ways to God Realization. A true Guru's only mission, only goal is looking towards the salvation of his disciples. A true Guru if he himself is free, why would he make anyone a slave, or bonded ? Pujya Swamiji therefore said it is best that a sadhak get good points by listening to many sources (Guru / God can come in many different forms) and adopt those teachings into your life that make sense and touch

one personally. But one must have relatiobship with only GOD. A true Guru will not make anyone a slave (chella) Even God made Arjuna, His friend, not his chella (disciple). One learns more when it comes out of a friend. Even God only taught as a friend. God never stayed on higher level or a higher pedestal, from His loved ones. Therefore Guru should be accessible like a friend, thus making the teachings so easy to imbibe. Learning becomes natural and effortless. You said that the deha of Guru is not only a sthula deha. He is Chaitanya-Deha. Yes absolutely.. . therefore why all that fuss over the body ? Eating his left over food, drinking the tirtha of his feet.... etc etc. If by eating leftovers and drinking water of Guru's feet, salvation can be attained, then why salvation / realization has not taken place so far in majority of the devotees who have been doing this for years ? Krishnam Vande Jagat Guru. Krishna is Guru

and Gita is the Mantra and with this we can all attain upliftment, salvation / God Realization. If there are any imperfections in expression, from Pujya Swamiji's messages, I seek pardon. Ram Ram Prasanna Shembekar <she.... ..com> wrote:I do not agree with this point. One should worship his Guru, eat his left overs, drink the tirtha of his feet.Who has seen God ? But you can see a living being who is nothing but God.In adhyatma & especially in Bhakti Marga, Guru is the Sarvasva , he is entity. Please refer to the scriptures of Saint Dnyaneshwar, Tukaram and Samarth Ramdas Swami. Please refer to Sadguru Bramhachaitanya Maharaj and Shri Swami Samartha. Also refer to the Charitra of Shri sai BAba and Shri Sant Gajanan Maharaj of Shegaon. The deha of Guru is not only a sthula deha. He is Chaitanya-Deha. In fact I should say if God himself appears in front of you and your Guru

is also present there, then you should first bow in the feet of Guru and then God. This is not only my opinion but it is very important sutra in Bhakti Marga.Shri Ram.Prasanna ShembekarOn 10/19/07, Sadhak < sadhak_insight@ > wrote: :Shree Hari:18th October, 2007, MondayAshwin Krishna Panchami, Vikram Samvat 2064, Somvar Question: To what extent is it appropriate to worship one's Guru, to meditate on the Guru, to eat the left-overs off the Guru's plate, to take the dust of his feet, or to drink the nectar-filled water after washing his feet ? Answer: All of this should be done only to God; just like one should worship the form of God alone, one must meditate on God alone, one must make an offering of food to God alone and then take that in as God's

offering (prasad). One must only pay homage and save the soil of that land where God entered into His divine play. One must drink the nectar from Shaligram stone. One must pay homage and revere Gangaji herself, that touched the feet of the Lord. The point being made here is, that God himself it the greatest and the purest. There is no one like God, has never been, will never be, and can never be. Therefore taking refuge in God, one must worship God alone, meditate and do all else for God alone. God's body is eternal and consciousness itself, but the bodies of great souls are made of the five elements and therefore inert and perishable. God is present everywhere as He pervades this entire Universe; i.e. He is in the photograph, as well. But the all pervasiveness of the great Souls (being separate from the body) is within God's all pervasiveness. Within God are all the great Souls, therefore by worshipping God, all

the great Souls will be automatically worshipped. If instead one worships the picture of a Great Soul, and worships the body of a Great Soul made of flesh and bones, then this will become an obstacle in worship of God, which is totally against the principles of great Souls. This is because great Souls come in to this world, to bring human beings close to God, not to get people attracted to and involved in themselves instead. One who attracts others towards himself (to worship him, to meditate on him etc) is a deceitful imposter. In reality if one examines this further, then this body is nothing but a machine producing excretion and sewage. Even when given the best of best foods, it converts it into excretion and the best of best sweet juices and nectar, comes out in the form of sewage ! As long as there is life force, the body is a machine to manufacture excretion and sewage. And once the life force leaves

it, it is nothing but a corpse. In reality, this body is dying at every moment, it is becoming a corpse. One cannot take a picture of that which is the essence within (the consciousness) . A picture can only be taken of that body which is changing every moment, and continuosly perishing. Rather even immediately after taking a picture, the body does not remain like the same as when the picture was taken a few minutes back. Therefore worshipping a picture is worshipping only the perishable. There is no life force in the picture of a body, therefore picture of a body is like the corpse of a corpse ! (to be continued) From "Saccha Guru Kaun Hai" in Hindi pg 30 by Swami RamsukhdasjiRam RamFor full online discourses in Hindi, please visit Swami Ramsukhdasji' s website.http://www.swamiram sukhdasji. orgTo gain clarification on

related issues, please send your questions to: @grou ps.comTo read online spiritual books, please visit:http://www.swamiram sukhdasji. org/swamijibooks /To read all previous messages, please visit:http://groups. / group/sadhaka/P.S: Please pass on this message to whomever you think would benefit from the same

[Guest guest]

Yes there is a Guru in all and that is the divine principle. That is real knowledge and having attained it the need for Vedas scriptures disappear. They live in wisdom who see themselves in all and all in themselves.

 

 

 

Sincerely,

Dr. Vispi Jokhi

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Pranams. If you believe in the principle of Advaita, then you aught to see paramatman in every one. But the same is not applicable for Guru. Vaidyanathan.

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Dear All

Guru is the internal ear (antah karan) who introduces our intellect to the Sri Krishna.

Guru is a path travelled and that who has suceeded in achieving salvation can inspire others. Kripacharya and Dona charya were also Gurus, but they did not reach the end of road, before started to speak on. On the other hand, Sri Krishna, also a Guru but was realized.

How to find Guru? Guru finds his Shisya. Guru is more kind and responsible than the lives bound by worldly compulsions. The Sishya is always before sight of the Guru. After Sishya realizes the GURU and his wishes, he sees all world in the light of the knowledge, and without the ego. All world is manifest of the knowledge of the Guru.

Sri Krishna finally told Arjun who he was, and after self introduction Arjun was freed of illusion and regained own remembrance.

NASTO MOHAH SMIRITIS LABHDHA - now the illusion is destroyed and I remember everything.

 

Regards

Krishna Gopal

----------

Guru is embodiment of holiness. Adi Sankara met guru Govinda Paada only after deciding to seek GOD. Durva age about 7 who was Guru.Narada came on his way blessed. Thirunanasambadar age about 5 who was Guru. Mother parvathi came and bleseed. Narada came to Prahalada and blessed him. Namadeva was blessed and sent by Lord Panduraga to get guru blessings. Kanchi purnar was sent by Lord Varadaraja at Kanchipuram to get blessed by another purnar at Sri Rangam. Annamaiya in Tirumala (Thirupathi) was blessed by Lord Venkateswara HIMSELF as GURU. So many are there.

 

Adi Sankara says in Vivekachudami that a Sat Guru is one who live by begging only 5 houses, does not possess more than 2 cloths, does not confine to one place forming trust etc, and very importantly said GURU is the one who speaks only on knowledge of Athuma.

 

Dear friends GURU will be sent to you only IF you let tears on God and concentrate on values of sadhana mentioned in "Sadana Panchakam".

Guru ONLY indicates direction towards GOD. One can know from great saints that they respected their Guru, but went on the way shown, in practicing values. Sri Ragavendra saw LORD Krishna in tender age. Got blessed. Later he went to Guru. After that he was all alone by himself. So is all the above saints. Worrying to get a Guru may not help. Ask Lord Krishna with whole heart. Follow values on life. Be best to your self. Remain calm and avoid desires. A Sat Guru comes to you.

B.Sathyanarayan

----------

In my opinion a guru will show the way to enlightenment, but will not assure you any enlightenment. In class room one guru will be there and many students, but only few students will pass, others may fail. Do you say he is guru for only those students who have got through ?

I think this clears all doubts about who is guru.

 

As per our culture, we respect/worship all elders ( in terms of age, knowledge and experience).

 

Prakash

----------

Dear Devotees, In my opinion, the entire discussion has been based on the physical body of the Guru, because of which all such confusion has come. If the Guru's astral body is taken into account and we do all obeisance to that body, then it will be as good as doing it to God himself. Let us be clear that when we refer to Guru, we are talking of a real emancipated soul, who can lead us to God. Pranams,

Vaidyanathan

----------

Guru (spiritual teacher or Acharya) has a supreme place in our tradition. The

word Guru is made of two parts: Gu means darkness or ignorance and ru means

dispeller or remover. Thus Guru literally means remover of ignorance. Gurus

can be male or female, old or young, and come in all shapes, sizes, castes and

colors. The Guru-disciple(Shishya) relationship is perhaps the most sacred

relationship in the Hindu tradition. Right from the Vedas (Acharya Devo Bhava-

Teacher is like God) The role of Guru is more than just communication of information. The qualities of a Guru are as follows:

1. Guru is true, simple, and direct.

2. Guru does not steal our money, instead steals only our ignorance and anxiety.

3. Guru can lead us to a spiritual path without severe asceticism.

4. Guru brings peace of a cave and the experience of solitude right to our houses. 5. Guru does not give us wrong advice to renounce our property and wealth of this world, instead makes us renounce our ego.

6. Guru breaths in a divine factor and help us to transform our mundane life into a sacred existence.

7. Guru bestows a new life in which we can face all sorrows cheerfully.

8. Guru makes us attain perfection in this very world.

9. With the grace of a Guru we will be able to see this world as heaven and not as a place of sorrow and suffering.

 

Do we absolutely need to have a Guru? I suppose, it is possible to reach the

goal in our spiritual journey without the aid of a Guru. However, it is lot

easier with the grace of a Guru. As the Katha Upanishad states " To many it

is not given to hear the God within. Many, though hear of it, do no understand

it. Wonderful is he who speaks of it. Intelligent is he who learns of it. Blessed is he who, taught by a Guru is able to understand it". Thus, we may

look upon the Gurus as road maps to our spiritual journey. A Guru will wake us

up and may even walk with us side by side, but no Guru will carry us on his

shoulder and deliver us to final destination. That we have to do our selves, as

declared in the Bhagavadgita by Jagadguru (teacher of the universe) Krishna

thus: "One should lift one self by ones own self...."

 

K.S. tAtAchAr

-----------

 

----

 

 

mallik kotamarti

10/25/2007 8:26:27 PM

 

Re: Guru Worship related

 

 

 

 

Jai Sadasiva , Om Namah Shivay!

enjoyed reading all.

Only one question.

What is the one that can see Guru in all? Do you see Guru in all before you see God in all?

Jai Guru Datta Sree Guru Datta

 

 

Sreepalan VC <sreepal5058 > Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2007 8:32:44 AMRe: Guru Worship related

 

Samyak DarshanDear Shri Ram Ram,Nice that Guru and his worship is finding a place of discussion table.Guru as it is understood as venerable one and is one of the instrumental causes for educating the less informed to learn what is necessary for the liberation - Moksha - end of birth and death. Guru is one who has information to remove or eliminate the darkness of ignorance of Self- Soul. Guru – Gu = darkness + ru = remover.All other teachers who impart worldly knowledge are also called as Gurus but that is worldly expression.If this statement is acceptable, then let Guru’s roll be analyzed:Quote:Guru is the remover of darkness, and when this darkness is removed, enlightment or realization is automatic. But until the darkness is not removed, and the realization has not been attained, the person cannot be called a Guru (or a Sadguru). Therefore a Guru cannot be called a Guru until this process of God Realization is complete, as he cannot be called the remover of darkness. Either the darkness is removed or it is not. Unquote.Guru may have placed all that he has at his disposal for the understanding of the subject. However, how much is understood, how less understood, whether understood at all, depends entirely upon the disciple, could there be any disagreement? In case, Guru had the capacity to make all those who listen to him to understand him the way he had meant, then the differences in understanding or perceiving in all the disciples would not exist, right. However, in reality it is not so. That explains the inequality / individuality in intelligence / intellect of every human soul.Therefore, Guru is one of the instrumental causes – ‘nimitta kaaran’, of the many that provided conducive atmosphere for enabling the individual to understand Guru’s sermon. Nonetheless, the disciple carries in him a feeling of gratitude for all that he had from Guru and hence due to that ‘vinaya’ he pays homage to him and even go to the extent of eulogizing him that but for Guru he/she would not have learnt the subject. This can be more aformal respect expected of the individual in the worldly transactions.Capability to ‘understand’ is a singular and unique characteristic of the individual and is neither lendable nor donable. This is the substantial cause (upaadhan kaaran) for understanding the Guru’s sermon.Attempt is made to present the best that is known and it is likely that it may be falling short of one’s expectation and information. It is earnest and sincere request to bring out the defects and insufficiencies thereby help understanding better.Welcome for any further clarification. Truth is of Kevalin and the rest are mine. Wishing you all the best for the early dawn ofSamykathva. Now, it is, for the participants to come up. Yours brotherly,Sreepalan--- sadhak_insight <sadhak_insight@ > wrote:> Shree Hari> > Ram Ram> > Guru Govind dono khade kisko laagu pai> balihaari gurudev ki govind diyo bataaye.> > Pujya Swamiji has spoken about this verse on many> occasions, as this> statement is often misinterpreted by many.> > What it means is that if the Guru gives you the> darshan (vision) of> God and the Guru is also present at the same time,> side by side> with God, then Guru is to be paid homage to first> before God.> Dandvat pranaam is first to the Guru, (only when God> is standing next to the Guru) as the Guru has> clearly given you the darshan of God. The caveat is> if the Guru and God are standing side by side and> Guru has given you the darshan of God, not> otherwise.> > Pujya Swamiji says that in this world that which is> most excellent,> most eminent, the best of all, most honored etc. is> extremely> rare, just like parasmani (the stone whose touch,> coverts ordinary> metals to gold) is a rarity. Nature has shown us> that the rare> things are so very hard to find. How many such> gurus are there?> Such great Souls, Gurus, Sadgurus are an absolutely> rarity. If we> find a real saint (Guru), we must definitely hold on> to that one by> all means, i.e. the one who has given you the> darshan of God.> > Guru is the remover of darkness, and when this> darkness is removed,> enlightment or realization is automatic. But until> the darkness is> not removed, and the realization has not been> attained, the person> cannot be called a Guru (or a Sadguru). Therefore a> Guru cannot be> called a Guru until this process of God Realization> is complete, as> he cannot be called the remover of darkness. Either> the darkness is> removed or it is not.> > When one goes to a shopkeeper to buy something and> one pays money, but does not receive the goods, then> he has been cheated. Similarly a Guru who makes you> a disciple and doesn't give you darshan of God, i.e.> you do not attain God realization, then it is> cheating. It closes your doors to other teachings > etc.> > A lion does not become a lion by wearing a costume> of a lion. A guru by being called a Guru, does not> become a Guru. A gun> without the bullet, will make a loud noise when> fired, but will not> pierce. A real saint is like a loaded gun which> when released, will> not only awaken the inner quest for salvation with> the loud bang,> but will pierce your inner being through and through> (towards the goal of human life). The impact will> be significant. Therefore when Guru's life is lived> by his spoken words as per the scriptures, the> results are automatically seen in the disciples.> > The main point that Pujya Swamiji emphasized is that> Guru's work is> to make you meet God. And if he is unable to do> that he is not a> Guru. Then what is the point of engaging in another> relationship? Why get caught up in another> relationship, another> bondage ? Are we not experiencing enough bondages> from> relationships in sansaar (this world) ? For a> sadhak it is best to> have a relationship directly with God, but at the> same time take> advantage of satsang of many saints, gurus etc. A> true Guru, saint> will not limit a sadhak from gaining spiritual> knowledge else where> or will not hide the real ways to God Realization. > A true Guru's> only mission, only goal is looking towards the> salvation of his> disciples. A true Guru if he himself is free, why> would he make> anyone a slave, or bonded ? Pujya Swamiji therefore> said it is best> that a sadhak get good points by listening to many> sources (Guru /> God can come in many different forms) and adopt> those teachings into your life that make sense and> touch one personally. But one must have> relatiobship with only GOD.> > A true Guru will not make anyone a slave (chella)> Even God> made Arjuna, His friend, not his chella (disciple). > One learns more> when it comes out of a friend. Even God only taught> as a friend.> God never stayed on higher level or a higher> pedestal, from His> loved ones. Therefore Guru should be accessible> like a friend, thus> making the teachings so easy to imbibe. Learning> becomes natural> and effortless.> > You said that the deha of Guru is not only a sthula> deha. He is Chaitanya-Deha. Yes absolutely.. .> therefore why all that fuss over the body ? Eating> his left over food, drinking the tirtha of> his feet.... etc etc. If by eating leftovers and> drinking water of Guru's feet, salvation can be> attained, then why salvation / realization has not> taken place so far in majority of the devotees who> have been doing this for years ?> > Krishnam Vande Jagat Guru. Krishna is Guru and Gita> is the Mantra and with this we can all attain> upliftment, salvation / God Realization.> > If there are any imperfections in expression, from> Pujya Swamiji's> messages, I seek pardon.> > Ram Ram> > > Prasanna Shembekar <she.... ..com> wrote:> I do not agree with this point. One should worship> his Guru, eat his> left overs, drink the tirtha of his feet.> Who has seen God ? But you can see a living being> who is nothing> but God.> > In adhyatma & especially in Bhakti Marga, Guru is> the Sarvasva , he> is entity. Please refer to the scriptures of Saint> Dnyaneshwar,> Tukaram and Samarth Ramdas Swami. Please refer to> Sadguru> Bramhachaitanya Maharaj and Shri Swami Samartha.> Also refer to the> Charitra of Shri sai BAba and Shri Sant Gajanan> Maharaj of Shegaon.> > The deha of Guru is not only a sthula deha. He is> Chaitanya-Deha.> > In fact I should say if God himself appears in front> of you and your> Guru is also present there, then you should first> bow in the feet of> Guru and then God.> > This is not only my opinion but it is very important> sutra in Bhakti> Marga.> Shri Ram.> > Prasanna Shembekar> > > On 10/19/07, Sadhak < sadhak_insight@ >> wrote:> :Shree Hari:> > 18th October, 2007, Monday> Ashwin Krishna Panchami, Vikram Samvat 2064, Somvar> > Question: To what extent is it appropriate to> worship one's Guru, to> meditate on the Guru, to eat the left-overs off the> Guru's plate, to> take the dust of his feet, or to drink the> nectar-filled water after> washing his feet ?> > Answer: All of this should be done only to God; just> like one should> worship the form of God alone, one must meditate on> God alone, one> must make an offering of food to God alone and then> take === message truncated

 

 

[Guest guest]

It is possible to get struck with words and labels.......

.......and leave the understanding down the line

 

Important is the Clear understanding of what is happening and the rules of life...

rest starts to happen....

 

It is so simple and yet you may not get the opportunity......

......That is where the Grace or Guru comes in.......

 

a little guidance can help clear the blocks and then the process is on.......

One has the ability to do this by oneself too........

 

Sushil Jain

-

 

It is also said that such knowledge is possible as one raises consciousness through Yoga mentioned in our beloved Gita; as I further researched, I found this to be possible through opening of Visuddha in one's being. I wonder if someone that is well read could direct me to that point with in the ocean of Gita.

 

I learned tremendously when I was directed to a shloka in Bhakti Yoga that starts with "Klesodhika" when I was struggling with turning life around though I was a sincere practioner of Meditation.

 

regards, ShivMallik

-

 

Jai Gurudev!

 

My humble submission:

 

For anything we do in life, we need a guide/coach/teacher/guru and of different level /stature and knowledge depending on where are we in our life. If I am studying Biology in Class x Vs I am studying Bilogy in B.Sc. Vs I am studying in Medical college - My need for GURU Exists at each stage but we need more qualified / of higher order Guru in Medical college than in Class X.

 

So, we need Guru for sure for any learning and without Guru we can't learn the topic, we can't always be on track, without guidance one will become purposeless. This becomes even more Crtical and Important in Spiritual journey.

 

Best regards,

Siddharth

-

 

 

 

On 10/27/07, Vispi Jokhi <vhjokhi wrote:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes there is a Guru in all and that is the divine principle. That is real knowledge and having attained it the need for Vedas scriptures disappear. They live in wisdom who see themselves in all and all in themselves.

 

 

 

 

Sincerely,

Dr. Vispi Jokhi ---------- Pranams. If you believe in the principle of Advaita, then you aught to see paramatman in every one. But the same is not applicable for Guru. Vaidyanathan. ---------- Dear All Guru is the internal ear (antah karan) who introduces our intellect to the Sri Krishna. Guru is a path travelled and that who has suceeded in achieving salvation can inspire others. Kripacharya and Dona charya were also Gurus, but they did not reach the end of road, before started to speak on. On the other hand, Sri Krishna, also a Guru but was realized. How to find Guru? Guru finds his Shisya. Guru is more kind and responsible than the lives bound by worldly compulsions. The Sishya is always before sight of the Guru. After Sishya realizes the GURU and his wishes, he sees all world in the light of the knowledge, and without the ego. All world is manifest of the knowledge of the Guru. Sri Krishna finally told Arjun who he was, and after self introduction Arjun was freed of illusion and regained own remembrance. NASTO MOHAH SMIRITIS LABHDHA - now the illusion is destroyed and I remember everything.

Regards Krishna Gopal ---------- Guru is embodiment of holiness. Adi Sankara met guru Govinda Paada only after deciding to seek GOD. Durva age about 7 who was Guru.Narada came on his way blessed. Thirunanasambadar age about 5 who was Guru. Mother parvathi came and bleseed. Narada came to Prahalada and blessed him. Namadeva was blessed and sent by Lord Panduraga to get guru blessings. Kanchi purnar was sent by Lord Varadaraja at Kanchipuram to get blessed by another purnar at Sri Rangam. Annamaiya in Tirumala (Thirupathi) was blessed by Lord Venkateswara HIMSELF as GURU. So many are there.

Adi Sankara says in Vivekachudami that a Sat Guru is one who live by begging only 5 houses, does not possess more than 2 cloths, does not confine to one place forming trust etc, and very importantly said GURU is the one who speaks only on knowledge of Athuma.

Dear friends GURU will be sent to you only IF you let tears on God and concentrate on values of sadhana mentioned in " Sadana Panchakam " . Guru ONLY indicates direction towards GOD. One can know from great saints that they respected their Guru, but went on the way shown, in practicing values. Sri Ragavendra saw LORD Krishna in tender age. Got blessed. Later he went to Guru. After that he was all alone by himself. So is all the above saints. Worrying to get a Guru may not help. Ask Lord Krishna with whole heart. Follow values on life. Be best to your self. Remain calm and avoid desires. A Sat Guru comes to you. B.Sathyanarayan -------my opinion a guru will show the way to enlightenment, but will not assure you any enlightenment. In class room one guru will be there and many students, but only few students will pass, others may fail. Do you say he is guru for only those students who have got through ? I think this clears all doubts about who is guru.

As per our culture, we respect/worship all elders ( in terms of age, knowledge and experience).

Prakash ---------- Dear Devotees, In my opinion, the entire discussion has been based on the physical body of the Guru, because of which all such confusion has come. If the Guru's astral body is taken into account and we do all obeisance to that body, then it will be as good as doing it to God himself. Let us be clear that when we refer to Guru, we are talking of a real emancipated soul, who can lead us to God. Pranams, Vaidyanathan ---------- Guru (spiritual teacher or Acharya) has a supreme place in our tradition. The word Guru is made of two parts: Gu means darkness or ignorance and ru means dispeller or remover. Thus Guru literally means remover of ignorance. Gurus can be male or female, old or young, and come in all shapes, sizes, castes and colors. The Guru-disciple(Shishya) relationship is perhaps the most sacred relationship in the Hindu tradition. Right from the Vedas (Acharya Devo Bhava- Teacher is like God) The role of Guru is more than just communication of information. The qualities of a Guru are as follows: 1. Guru is true, simple, and direct. 2. Guru does not steal our money, instead steals only our ignorance and anxiety. 3. Guru can lead us to a spiritual path without severe asceticism. 4. Guru brings peace of a cave and the experience of solitude right to our houses. 5. Guru does not give us wrong advice to renounce our property and wealth of this world, instead makes us renounce our ego. 6. Guru breaths in a divine factor and help us to transform our mundane life into a sacred existence. 7. Guru bestows a new life in which we can face all sorrows cheerfully. 8. Guru makes us attain perfection in this very world. 9. With the grace of a Guru we will be able to see this world as heaven and not as a place of sorrow and suffering.

Do we absolutely need to have a Guru? I suppose, it is possible to reach the goal in our spiritual journey without the aid of a Guru. However, it is lot easier with the grace of a Guru. As the Katha Upanishad states " To many it is not given to hear the God within. Many, though hear of it, do no understand it. Wonderful is he who speaks of it. Intelligent is he who learns of it. Blessed is he who, taught by a Guru is able to understand it " . Thus, we may look upon the Gurus as road maps to our spiritual journey. A Guru will wake us up and may even walk with us side by side, but no Guru will carry us on his shoulder and deliver us to final destination. That we have to do our selves, as declared in the Bhagavadgita by Jagadguru (teacher of the universe) Krishna thus: " One should lift one self by ones own self.... "

K.S. tAtAchAr -----------

----

 

 

mallik kotamarti

10/25/2007 8:26:27 PM

 

Re: Guru Worship related

 

 

 

 

Jai Sadasiva , Om Namah Shivay!

enjoyed reading all.

Only one question.

What is the one that can see Guru in all? Do you see Guru in all before you see God in all?

Jai Guru Datta Sree Guru Datta

 

 

Sreepalan VC <

sreepal5058 Sent: Tuesday, October 23, 2007 8:32:44 AM

Re: Guru Worship related

 

Samyak DarshanDear Shri Ram Ram,Nice that Guru and his worship is finding a place of discussion table.Guru as it is understood as venerable one and is one of the instrumental causes for educating the less informed to learn what is necessary for the liberation - Moksha - end of birth and death. Guru is one who has information to remove or eliminate the darkness of ignorance of Self- Soul. Guru – Gu = darkness + ru = remover.All other teachers who impart worldly knowledge are also called as Gurus but that is worldly expression.

If this statement is acceptable, then let Guru's roll be analyzed:Quote:Guru is the remover of darkness, and when this darkness is removed, enlightment or realization is automatic. But until the darkness is not removed, and the realization has not been attained, the person cannot be called a Guru (or a Sadguru). Therefore a Guru cannot be called a Guru until this process of God Realization is complete, as he cannot be called the remover of darkness. Either the darkness is removed or it is not. Unquote.Guru may have placed all that he has at his disposal for the understanding of the subject. However, how much is understood, how less understood, whether understood at all, depends entirely upon the disciple, could there be any disagreement? In case, Guru had the capacity to make all those who listen to him to understand him the way he had meant, then the differences in understanding or perceiving in all the disciples would not exist, right. However, in reality it is not so. That explains the inequality / individuality in intelligence / intellect of every human soul.Therefore, Guru is one of the instrumental causes – 'nimitta kaaran', of the many that provided conducive atmosphere for enabling the individual to understand Guru's sermon. Nonetheless, the disciple carries in him a feeling of gratitude for all that he had from Guru and hence due to that 'vinaya' he pays homage to him and even go to the extent of eulogizing him that but for Guru he/she would not have learnt the subject. This can be more a

formal respect expected of the individual in the worldly transactions.Capability to 'understand' is a singular and unique characteristic of the individual and is neither lendable nor donable. This is the substantial cause (upaadhan kaaran) for understanding the Guru's sermon.

Attempt is made to present the best that is known and it is likely that it may be falling short of one's expectation and information. It is earnest and sincere request to bring out the defects and insufficiencies thereby help understanding better.

Welcome for any further clarification. Truth is of Kevalin and the rest are mine. Wishing you all the best for the early dawn ofSamykathva. Now, it is, for the participants to come up. Yours brotherly,

Sreepalan--- sadhak_insight <sadhak_insight@ > wrote:

> Shree Hari> > Ram Ram> > Guru Govind dono khade kisko laagu pai> balihaari gurudev ki govind diyo bataaye.> > Pujya Swamiji has spoken about this verse on many> occasions, as this

> statement is often misinterpreted by many.> > What it means is that if the Guru gives you the> darshan (vision) of> God and the Guru is also present at the same time,> side by side

> with God, then Guru is to be paid homage to first> before God.> Dandvat pranaam is first to the Guru, (only when God> is standing next to the Guru) as the Guru has> clearly given you the darshan of God. The caveat is

> if the Guru and God are standing side by side and> Guru has given you the darshan of God, not> otherwise.> > Pujya Swamiji says that in this world that which is> most excellent,

> most eminent, the best of all, most honored etc. is> extremely> rare, just like parasmani (the stone whose touch,> coverts ordinary> metals to gold) is a rarity. Nature has shown us

> that the rare> things are so very hard to find. How many such> gurus are there?> Such great Souls, Gurus, Sadgurus are an absolutely> rarity. If we> find a real saint (Guru), we must definitely hold on

> to that one by> all means, i.e. the one who has given you the> darshan of God.> > Guru is the remover of darkness, and when this> darkness is removed,> enlightment or realization is automatic. But until

> the darkness is> not removed, and the realization has not been> attained, the person> cannot be called a Guru (or a Sadguru). Therefore a> Guru cannot be> called a Guru until this process of God Realization

> is complete, as> he cannot be called the remover of darkness. Either> the darkness is> removed or it is not.> > When one goes to a shopkeeper to buy something and> one pays money, but does not receive the goods, then

> he has been cheated. Similarly a Guru who makes you> a disciple and doesn't give you darshan of God, i.e.> you do not attain God realization, then it is> cheating. It closes your doors to other teachings > etc.> > A lion does not become a lion by wearing a costume> of a lion. A guru by being called a Guru, does not> become a Guru. A gun> without the bullet, will make a loud noise when

> fired, but will not> pierce. A real saint is like a loaded gun which> when released, will> not only awaken the inner quest for salvation with> the loud bang,> but will pierce your inner being through and through

> (towards the goal of human life). The impact will> be significant. Therefore when Guru's life is lived> by his spoken words as per the scriptures, the> results are automatically seen in the disciples.

> > The main point that Pujya Swamiji emphasized is that> Guru's work is> to make you meet God. And if he is unable to do> that he is not a> Guru. Then what is the point of engaging in another

> relationship? Why get caught up in another> relationship, another> bondage ? Are we not experiencing enough bondages> from> relationships in sansaar (this world) ? For a> sadhak it is best to

> have a relationship directly with God, but at the> same time take> advantage of satsang of many saints, gurus etc. A> true Guru, saint> will not limit a sadhak from gaining spiritual

> knowledge else where> or will not hide the real ways to God Realization. > A true Guru's> only mission, only goal is looking towards the> salvation of his> disciples. A true Guru if he himself is free, why

> would he make> anyone a slave, or bonded ? Pujya Swamiji therefore> said it is best> that a sadhak get good points by listening to many> sources (Guru /> God can come in many different forms) and adopt

> those teachings into your life that make sense and> touch one personally. But one must have> relatiobship with only GOD.> > A true Guru will not make anyone a slave (chella)> Even God

> made Arjuna, His friend, not his chella (disciple). > One learns more> when it comes out of a friend. Even God only taught> as a friend.> God never stayed on higher level or a higher

> pedestal, from His> loved ones. Therefore Guru should be accessible> like a friend, thus> making the teachings so easy to imbibe. Learning> becomes natural> and effortless.> > You said that the deha of Guru is not only a sthula> deha. He is Chaitanya-Deha. Yes absolutely.. .> therefore why all that fuss over the body ? Eating> his left over food, drinking the tirtha of

> his feet.... etc etc. If by eating leftovers and> drinking water of Guru's feet, salvation can be> attained, then why salvation / realization has not> taken place so far in majority of the devotees who

> have been doing this for years ?> > Krishnam Vande Jagat Guru. Krishna is Guru and Gita> is the Mantra and with this we can all attain> upliftment, salvation / God Realization.> > If there are any imperfections in expression, from> Pujya Swamiji's> messages, I seek pardon.> > Ram Ram> > > Prasanna Shembekar <she.... ..com> wrote:

> I do not agree with this point. One should worship> his Guru, eat his> left overs, drink the tirtha of his feet.> Who has seen God ? But you can see a living being> who is nothing> but God.

> > In adhyatma & especially in Bhakti Marga, Guru is> the Sarvasva , he> is entity. Please refer to the scriptures of Saint> Dnyaneshwar,> Tukaram and Samarth Ramdas Swami. Please refer to

> Sadguru> Bramhachaitanya Maharaj and Shri Swami Samartha.> Also refer to the> Charitra of Shri sai BAba and Shri Sant Gajanan> Maharaj of Shegaon.> > The deha of Guru is not only a sthula deha. He is

> Chaitanya-Deha.> > In fact I should say if God himself appears in front> of you and your> Guru is also present there, then you should first> bow in the feet of> Guru and then God.

> > This is not only my opinion but it is very important> sutra in Bhakti> Marga.> Shri Ram.> > Prasanna Shembekar> > > On 10/19/07, Sadhak <

sadhak_insight@ >> wrote:> :Shree Hari:> > 18th October, 2007, Monday> Ashwin Krishna Panchami, Vikram Samvat 2064, Somvar> > Question: To what extent is it appropriate to

> worship one's Guru, to> meditate on the Guru, to eat the left-overs off the> Guru's plate, to> take the dust of his feet, or to drink the> nectar-filled water after> washing his feet ?

> > Answer: All of this should be done only to God; just> like one should> worship the form of God alone, one must meditate on> God alone, one> must make an offering of food to God alone and then

> take === message truncated