When Lord Krishna says, I am Lord Shiva

December 9, 2007

Namasthe,

The word 'Lord' comes from Christianity. It is okay to accept words from other languages and religions but know that you are using a word that is used most often by Christianity.

We, Hindus, use the word 'Lord' to explain details about Hinduism to non Hindus. If we use the word "Lord' because of English language then it is okay. We do need to also know the subtle impact of the use of words on our kids and others.

God, Param-atma etc are more meaningful words to me.

With lots of love and respect

Suneel

On Behalf Of BharathiFriday, December 07, 2007 3:14 PM Subject: Re: When Lord Kriishna says, "I am Lord Shiva"

Namasthe mr.swami param, : This is my question for my own understanding and clarification purpose. Can you please give the explanation under what context that we should be understanding this statement "Note: Hindus should really not be using the term "Lord" or "God" for that matter. " by mr.swami Param in below email thread.

I am a hindu by birth but I usually think of supreme as supreme/divinity/Lord/God/or whatever you feel about that Ultimate/ at that moment in your heart is all it is which is beyond birth/death/religion/etc..

Namasthe again,

Regards,

Bharathi.

- Shri Swami Param,

II SHRI HARI HARII

Your statement that who really knows, is not appropriate. What Shri Krishna said is written in Shrimad Bhagwat by Bagwan Ved Vyas. Whether Vaishnavas or Shav, they do not ever prove any thing but are only devoted to Bhakti of their Paramatma. A devotee (Bhagat) has no such qualities like fundamentalist as Bhakti is above these dualities (Dawand). Devotion (Bhakti) has no place for logic or argument as Bhakti flows on the path of Shradha and Vishwas. With these basis only the fruit of sadhna is attained as Shastra quote Vishawaso faldayaka.

Please do not attempt to hurt the sentiments of devotees but purify your quest (Jigyasa) for knowing the truth from Saints, Ved, Shastras and Puranas.

Shubh Kamna Sahit,

RAJINDER MOHAN VOHRA

PK LAMBA <pklamba231 > Sent: Thursday, December 6, 2007 7:14:28 AMRe: When Lord Kriishna says, "I am Lord Shiva"

Swami RamPlease define "Vaishnava fundamentalists"P.K.LAMBA

On Dec 5, 2007 5:43 PM, baiya sathyanarayan <baiya07_sathya@ .co. in > wrote:

Dear Sadaks,

In any ancient temple built by sacred saint and songs sung about that temple, one can definetely see Lord Vishnu idol in Shiva temple on the western side. So is lord Shiva in Vishnu temple. Lord Shiva on Nandi Vahana symbolises that death is approaching living beings slowly as the buffelow moves. Shiva is giver of death. Vishnu is sustainer. Sustainance should come fast as Garuda. Bhrama the creator. Many of you know this. In many avatars Lord Vishnu killed many demons/ horrible persons doing the work of Shiva. So said Lord. Whether Shiva or Visnu do not ponder over it. Life span is very short. 10 years anyone can realise has gone without realisation. Don`t waste time. Make devotion and reach that Lord. In my next mail I will give details from puranas.

B.Sathyanarayan------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -- Of course, who really knows what Krishna said? Such statements are often used by Vaishnava fundamentalists to "prove" that Krishna is "really the Creator of all" including Siva. It is nice you are studying the Hindu religion. Note: Hindus should really not be using the term "Lord" or "God" for that matter.

Think about "knowing" that "There is no difference between Lord Shiva and Lord Krishna." Just another "obvious" trick of the ego.

one should stop using names and forms.

Swami Param

------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --

Rajinder Vohra <rajinder_vohra@ isgec.com> wrote:

II SHRI HARI II

Lord Krishna said in Vibhuti Yog of Shrimad Bhagwat that in Vaihnavas, HE is the Param Vaishnav SHIV.

In Shri Shiv Chalisa the following verses (vakya) are written:

"Hari Har ek (one) roop gunsheela

Karat Swami Sewak ki leela

Rahte dono poojat pujwavat

Pooja paddati sabni seekhavat.

Maruti (Shri hanuman ji) ban sewa keeni

Rameshwar (Ishawar of Sri Ram) ban sewa leeni "

In Skand Puran, Shri Vishnu categorically states that HE and SHIV both are ONE and akatya

(indivisible) . Whosoever will make difference between them shall go to Rorak Narak (a type of Hell).

In Shiv Maha Puran, Lord SHIV categorically states that HE and Shri Vishnu are ONE and whosoever

will make differentiate between them shall not get rebirth as manushya.

Therefore, Lord Krishna reveals a param staya about HIS being SHIVA and SHIVA being KRISHNA.

In Bhakti Yog of Vedas, ananya bhakti is emphasised i.e. worship of ONE roop (vigraha or figure) of GOD.

Therefore, If you worship Lord SHIV and you also love Lord Krishna, you can recite Shri Krishna names also

But keeping the roop of Lord SHIV in the mind.

This way you can purify yourself and attain the All Mighty GOD as and when your bhakti attains parikashtha

(ultimate limit) and you get the blessing of a Sat Guru.

II SHIV OM II

Shubh Kamna Sahit,

RAJINDER MOHAN VOHRA------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- ------- Lord is one and is intelligence of all. God cannot be reached by merely worldly materials as that of your mind, your intelligence, it is because of your complete faith in the god, that his mere blessing would give you his divinity. Worldly material cannot grasp God, He is above of all those. Very first lesson that if you have hate with any community, any living being it is the same as you are having hate with param-atma. Duty is assigned in dharma-shastra as which community has to do what work, but by merely hating a community or considering your community as above of other makes you no where . look for "vasudev sarvam"- (look god in everyone) . Do's and don't are being very well defined in dharma shastra, you have example of religious saints and lord Ram in front of you as have to behave live life like. do your duty according to your varna, and please do not harm anyone, that does not mean you have to support the ones who are doing wrong deeds. It is person who is doing wrong deeds, and have to be punished for that, after all dharm is above all. It is god who has taken all the birth in the universe whether you or me, and have been told to act according to dharma-shastra. Also please note at the time of maha-pralaya, all atma would be merged in god itself, of which the whole universe had come up from. ONE VERY IMPORTANT SAYING "PLEASE DEVOTE YOURSELF TO THE LORD AND ASK HIM TO LEAD YOU TO THE RIGHT PATH, ", AS IT IS SAID TILL THE PERSON USES HIS INTELLIGENCE , GOD NEVER INTERFERES, BUT ONCE WHEN HE BECOMES COMPLETE DEVOTEE, IT IS HIS BLESSINGS WHICH COMES INTO FORCE. As regard lord Krishna stating "I being lord shiva" it is stated that the paramatma is the sole of all, out atma is also a part of paramatma. It is one single paramatma which has taken shape of many. Rgds Ram ram Manish Pugalia

------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- ----- It may be relevant here>>> BHAGVADA GEETA TEXT 7/22 sa taya sraddhaya yuktas tasyaradhanam ihate labhate ca tatah kaman mayaiva vihitan hi tan

TRANSLATION Endowed with such a faith, he seeks favors of a particular demigod and obtains his desires. But in actuality these benefits are bestowed by Me alone.

PURPORT The demigods cannot award benedictions to the devotees without the permission of the Supreme Lord. The living entity may forget that everything is the property of the Supreme Lord, but the demigods do not forget. So the worship of demigods and achievement of desired results are not due to the demigods but to the Supreme Personality of Godhead, by arrangement. The less intelligent living entity does not know this, and therefore he foolishly goes to the demigods for some benefit. But the pure devotee, when in need of something, prays only to the Supreme Lord. Asking for material benefit, however, is not a sign of a pure devotee. A living entity goes to the demigods usually because he is mad to fulfill his lust. This happens when something undue is desired by the living entity, and the Lord Himself does not fulfill the desire. In the Caitanya-caritamrta it is said that one who worships the Supreme Lord and at the same time desires material enjoyment is contradictory in his desires. Devotional service of the Supreme Lord and the worship of a demigod cannot be on the same platform because worship of a demigod is material and devotional service to the Supreme Lord is completely spiritual. For the living entity who desires to return to Godhead, material desires are impediments. A pure devotee of the Lord is therefore not awarded the material benefits desired by less intelligent living entities who prefer to worship demigods of the material world rather than engage in devotional service of the Supreme Lord.

TEXT 7/ 23 antavat tu phalam tesam tad bhavaty alpa-medhasam devan deva-yajo yanti mad-bhakta yanti mam api

TRANSLATION Men of small intelligence worship the demigods, and their fruits are limited and temporary. Those who worship the demigods go to the planets of the demigods, but My devotees ultimately reach My supreme planet. PURPORT

Some commentators on the Gita say that one who worships a demigod can reach the Supreme Lord, but here it is clearly stated that the worshipers of demigods go to the different planetary systems where various demigods are situated, just as a worshiper of the sun achieves the sun or a worshiper of the demigod of the moon achieves the moon. Similarly, if anyone wants to worship a demigod like Indra, he can attain that particular god's planet. It is not that everyone, regardless of whatever demigod is worshiped, will reach the Supreme Personality of Godhead. That is denied here, for it is clearly stated that the worshipers of the demigods go to different planets in the material world, but the devotee of the Supreme Lord goes directly to the supreme planet of the Personality of Godhead. Here the point may be raised that if the demigods are different parts of the body of the Supreme Lord, then the same end should be achieved by worshiping them. However, worshipers of the demigods are less intelligent because they don't know to what part of the body food must be supplied. Some of them are so foolish that they claim that there are many parts and many ways to supply food. This isn't very sanguine. Can anyone supply food to the body through the ears or eyes? They do not know that these demigods are different parts of the universal body of the Supreme Lord, and in their ignorance they believe that each and every demigod is a separate God and a competitor of the Supreme Lord. Not only are demigods parts of the Supreme Lord, but ordinary living entities are also. In the Srimad-Bhagavatam it is stated that the brahmanas are the head of the Supreme Lord, the ksatriyas are the arms, etc., and that all serve different functions. Regardless of the situation, if one knows that both the demigods and himself are part and parcel of the Supreme Lord, his knowledge is perfect. But if he does not understand this, he achieves different planets where the demigods reside. This is not the same destination the devotee reaches. The results achieved by the demigods' benedictions are perishable because within this material world the planets, the demigods and their worshipers are all perishable. Therefore it is clearly stated in this verse that all results achieved by worshiping demigods are perishable, and therefore such worship is performed by the less intelligent living entity. Because the pure devotee engaged in Krsna consciousness in devotional service of the Supreme Lord achieves eternal blissful existence that is full of knowledge, his achievements and those of the common worshiper of the demigods are different. The Supreme Lord is unlimited; His favor is unlimited; His mercy is unlimited. Therefore the mercy of the Supreme Lord upon His pure devotees is unlimited. HARE KRISHNA P.K.Lamba ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- ----- Dear Friends, Namaskaar and pranaams ! If anyone thinks that he has reached the SUMMIT (pinnacle) of knowledge, he would be the most open-minded person, without trying to impose his knowledge. TRUE KNOWLEDGE IS INFINITE AND IS ISHWARA JNAANA (AND ONE WOULD NEVER DARE TO DECLARE THAT "I KNOW EVERYTHING"). Yes, of course, we can use our logic and positive exchanges to remove our own misunderstandings in order to move closer the the ONE AND ONLY TRUTH, THAT IS ISHWARA. Quoting few verses from various scriptures here and there to prove one's point is not enough to establish the INTINITE NATURE OF TRUTH. One should always have checks and balances of his own spiritual journey's progress, and unless one feels deep inside "NETI... NETI.... (this is not... this is not.....)", one may not be on the right path to the goal. Depending on a particular dogma, one may not reach the TRUTH. IT IS A PROCESS OF INCESSANT (NON-STOP) INQUISITIVENESS, SEEKING, LEARNING, UNDERSTANDING, THROUGH EXCHANGE OF INFORMATION, DISCUSSIONS DEBATES, "REALISING AND EXPERIENCING THE TRUTH WITHIN ONE'S "SELF THAT HELPS ONE TO REACH THE "SAT-CHIT-ANANDA" (an eternal bliss by becoming the KNOWLEDGE ITSELF). VEDA VYAASA BHAGAVAN SHOULD HAVE BEEN A FOOL, WHO CODIFIED VEDAS, AND THEN TO HAVE AUTHORED BRAHMASUTRA DOWN TO PURANAS AND UPAPURANAS IN ORDER TO LEAD EVERY HUMAN BEING TO THE DIVINE THROUGH VARIOUS PATHS OF YOGA, ESPECIALLY "BHAKTHI YOGA" FOR THE ORDINARY HUMANS. THE ULTIMATE TRUTH THAT IS ISHWARA IS PRESENTED "AT DIFFERENT LEVELS" TO THE HUMAN RACE SO THAT EVERYONE CAN GET CONNECTED TO THE "ALL-PERVASIVE (OMNI-PRESENT, OMNIPOTENT, OMNI-SCIENT) DIVINE". To broadly put the classification, the following would give a guideline on these different presentation : - BRAHM SANKALPA - AUM - AS THE PRIMORDIAL SOUND SANKALPA - PURUSHA SANKALPA - AADI PARAASHAKTHI SANKALPA - PURUSHA PRAKRITI SANKALPA - THRIMURTI SANKALPA - THRIMURTI WITH THEIR CONSORTS SANKALPA - INCARNATION SANKALPA - THROUGH DIFFERENT DEVATHAS ALL LEADING TO THE ONE AND ONLY TRUTH - SANKALPA, EXPLAINED THROUGH VARIOUS PURANAS AND UPAPURANAS. One who questions Veda Vyaasa Bhagavan's wisdom should be be trying to learn the whole scriptural wisdom, as their consciousness has been blocked half-way through and stuck there, refusing to move forward. THE FIRST BOOK OF ALL MANKIND, RG VEDA SAYS : TAD VISHNOH PARAMAM PADAM (Rg Veda 1.22.20) There are more than 23 different Devathas discussed in RG VEDA and these Devathas are power centres in our our physiology guiding various (trillions of) activities within our body, helping us poor arrogant souls through the mysterious ways of CREATION/SUSTENANCE /DISSOLUTION to the ultimate GOAL OF ABODE OF ISHWARA. With best regards, VM (vavamenon) ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -------

@grou ps.com [ @grou ps.com] On Behalf Of sjackson07513Sunday, November 18, 2007 6:02 PM@grou ps.com When Lord Kriishna says, "I am Lord Shiva"

Namaste to all, If anyone would like to please elaborate on the statement Lord Krishna makes, "I am Lord Shiva."The reason I am interested is that as my practice is developing I must admit I feel a strong connection with Lord Shiva including worship of shivalinga.I had started japa with Lord Krishna but after beginning now with recitation of Om Namah Shivaya, I feel a growing sense of peace and devotion and see changes in myself. I have also from the beginning felt a love for Lord Ganesh and Devi Mother Ambaji.I would welcome any comments. Om Namah ShivayaBlessings to all, Steve------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -Gita Talk GuidelinesFROM THE MODERATORThe following are the guidelines for Gita-Talk discussions. 1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhaks clarify their doubts related to Gita shlokas. For responses to be posted, they must further clarify the understanding of Gitaji.2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to substantiate the response 3. Please limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc.4. Kindly make your responses concise and to the point. (Up to twenty line maximum, if possible).5. Please limit discussions to subject at hand.6. Please do not include links to other sites or other organizations7. Please do not include your personal information such as phone number, address etc.8. Kindly do not address the response to a particular individual, since the message is going to the entire group. 9. Due to a large readership, not all responses will be posted.10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if content is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the group.11. Please respond taking into consideration novices, youth, westerners, non-secterian audience. Please limit the use on only sanskrit words, and provide the english word with sanskrit bracketed wherever possible. MODERATORRam Ram

December 11, 2007

This is what I as a devotee of the Almighty feel:-

There is no difference between Shiva and Vishnu, as they are only different aspects of the same Almighty in different forms. In the Gita, Sri Krishna repeatedly advises Arjuna that he is immortal, all-pervasive, all-knowing, timeless, eternal in every form of the word. He appears to devotees in the form in which they worship Him, because He is formless. Islam feels our worship of the Almighty in varying forms and shapes defiles the Almighty, and that is a major cause of difference between the religions.

Vishnu can say "I am Shiva", as Shiva can say "I am Vishnu" depending on the circumstances, as both are manifestations of the same Power of God. It is left to us to understand the enigma we call "GOD", since HE is an intelligence far superior to us.I have not used the prefix Lord, or Shri for the two deities, since they are far above us.

Shivashankar Rajiv

--

Lord is Lord! God is God! Almighty is Almighty! Paramatma is Param+atma! Water is water, Jal and Pani, the same. Fire is Fire, Aag, Agni, Bah. Please donot be confused in the name/words. He is only HE. One speaking in Eng may call LORD, the same in Hindi /Sanskirt, PARBRAHAMN! Study more and deep to know the inner meaning (TRUTH). Hari Motwani.

--

Hari Om / Namestey / / Shalom/ Salam /Ni Hao /Chao/

Ciao/ Konichiwa / Dia Duit/ Bonjour/ Hello / Amen

/Amin / Guten Tag / Hola To All,

Every one of us is a human by birth and is born with the intelligence and a conciousness . We label our selves as this and that. It is a matter of choice of what you feel to choose to address yourselves and the Supreme Power/ Param-Atma/ Super Soul/ God/ Lord/Bhagvan. We humans have divided our selves and our

thoughts from other humans as mine and your religion. I am right You are wrong , because it suits me. I, me and mine and not you, your and your ways. But my way or a high way. But Why ???

As humans, If we believe that the same soul in me is the same soul in you then where is question of who calls and addresses this Supreme Power as Lord / God / Bhagavan / Super Power/ Param-Atma /Cosmic Energy and so on. As we address each other with various names in different languages in different countries of the

same Supreme Power as Hari Om / Namestey / / Shalom / Salam / Ni Hao / Chao / Ciao / Konichiwa / Dia Duit / Bonjour/ Hello / Amen /Amin /Guten Tag / Hola. So, why we can not address the same Supreme Power with the different name we choose to. Even a single person has different names and is known and is often called with different names as Son father, brother, uncles, cousin, daughter, mother, sister etc.

We all must think and live as humans and the children of the same one Supreme Power who is always with and without form in you and every where.

There is one religion and that is of the humanity. You are not the human body which is mortal but the Soul/ Atma residing in this vehicle . Soul is immortal and which is in you and in every other human and Soul is Eternal. Soul/ Atma can not be cut/ wet/ sliced /

destroyed. Broaden the horizon of your vision and understanding, tolerance of other humans.

You as human have been given this a destroyable vehicle-physical body to achieve a certain purpose with a mission within a very short time. Time is precious and does not wait for any one. So accomplish

the purpose and leave this vehicle/mortal body. A Human must not spend time and energy in a wasteful discussion and in discrimination between human and their believes. As a human engage in understanding,

Teach and Practice the following:

Love all

Manav Seva is Madhav Seva - Selfless Service-Serve all with no expectations in return

Be Truthful ( No lie, cheat, deceit , disloyal, dishonesty etc. )

Do your duty with the Right Action)

Non-Violence)

Seek and Be in Peace within and around)

Help ever and Hurt Never)

Be Thankful and Grateful what you have and who helped you to achieve these - The Supreme Power and the fellow humans)

Share your happiness and prosperity with the fellow human/s.)

Share the sorrow of others

Be in Constant touch with the Atma and Param-atma)

Surrender and offer every thing to Param -Atma /Supreme Power)

Always seek the right guidance from the Supreme in achieving the purpose for which HE has sent us here with the vehicle/ mortal body on this mortal world.)

With lots of Regards, love, affection, compassion,

care ,respect, thanks and Grateful to you all.

Kamlesh

-----------

Dear all,

I don't think we should get bog down on which word came form where.

That way India itself is a Greek word, and Hindu is a persian word.

God, Lord, Supreme or Supreme-soul sounds more universal than Allah, Jesus or para-atma while conversing in English.

In God we trust (motto of USA) looks generic than In Jesus we trust or in Krishna we trust!

getting back to "I am Shiva" of Bhagavadgita; let us not take it out of context.

BG says "rudrANAm shamkarashchAsmi"

that is among the 11 rudrAs, I am Sham-kara

Likewise, "AdityAnAm aham viSHNuh"

that is among 12 AdityAs (sons od aditi), I am viSHNu!

"prahlAdashchAsmi daityAnam"

that is among sons of Diti, I am prahlAda!

A more relevant verse is:

yo yo yAm yAm tanum bhaktah

shraddhayArchitum ichcHati..

KST

-----------

There are many Lords and many Gods and we can achnowledge any one. The

search for mankinds creator continues on and on, because the creator

purposed so. That man will continue to search the God, the Creator of

this universe. The great universal sovereign will not manifest Himself

in the form that we understand Him, for he's formless , invisible to

human eyes yet we can perseive Him by His divine qualities. By studies,

introspection, analysis, and see the awe in spiring events in

nature,one understands there is a wonderful personality behind all this.

That One commands, orders events and regulates all things for mankinds

benefits. I t is we by our political, commercial, other dividing forces

have caused pain, sorrow, greed, and violence, and hatred among

ourselves. The is super Ego that is the causing the pain and problems o

everyone the rich, poor, young and the aged. With regard and respect to

the group,

Paul Ponniah.

----------- Dear Sunil,

Thank you for this. Shall use Praramathuma in place of "Lord". In many British countries they use the word lord for highly reputed persons. Even in our country the advocates use, "My Lord". Our God is called Amaraprabu means Lord of all Lords. Once again thank you.

B.Sathyanarayan

-----------

Suneel has it very well clarified and that's the way Hindus should address. There is no word equivalent to Paramatma in english language, inadequacy of the language.

Ashok Shukla

-----------

From: suneelDate: Sun, 9 Dec 2007 18:11:37 -0500RE: When Lord Krishna says, "I am Lord Shiva"