Guest guest Posted April 26, 2008 Report Share Posted April 26, 2008 Dear Sadhaks, You can never distrube or even interfere GOD` s plan. GOD` s PLAN IS IN UPANASHIDS AND SCRIPTS. DESTINED:4 yugas are time framed. Longest Sat Yug shortest Kali yug. Exact number of years are mentioned. Nine planets syncronised for all being on earth as when, where, to whom, boy or girl or animal, plant etc based on one`s karma. Humans do foresee things just few weeks/months ahead but sometime fails. God has fixed rules on one`s action based cause and effect for several births of a soul which works automatically in which GOD remains witness. Where GOD interfers: Only in the case of true BHAKTHAS (devotees). Not even to yogi, sanyasi, Bhramin or anyone else one can think off. Why only to Bhaktha (true devotee): Here a bhaktha surrenders to GOD and remains calm. Does not even worry of future or things around, does not plan, does see GOD in all etc. IN HERE BAKTHA REMAINS WITNESS. Tapasvi, yogi, Sanyasi etc; They people try (make special effort) for Mukthi (salvation) by doing all sorts of penance. HERE GOD REMAINS WITNESS. When God remains witness, you are Kartha (doer), doing all penance. When you remain witness, God takes over the doership role - kartha, doing everything for you to elevate you. God and His divine energy (shakti) is already in this role, but it is only ignorance that makes us believe that we are doing. This concept is from BAGAVATHA DHARMA script told by 9 elevated saints starting from Druvular, Karabaganar etc Sadhaks: If you can disturb GOD's plan, then you are mightier. How can anyone be greater than God? This human life span is very very short. Once the sukshuma (soul) leaves the body, time lapses and you have no chance to do bakthi (worship and devotion). Your body which you love so dearly, will not be kept even for 24 hours even if you choose. Time is running out ... let us surrender at His lotus feet and live by His plans. B.Sathyanarayan - Is Life Free-Will or Destiny? Everything is destiny. Even the way you think, the reason you breath, the incidences that you blink, the purpose you act for, is pre-destined. If you think you did something in certain way, one can always say that that is what you were pre-destined for. Where is the free will here? Everything is free will. If I do not push myself into an act nothing will happen from my side. If anything happens related to me, my presence is the reason for that. I can always change my ways to adapt the way I want. I have always been doing it. Therefore, I am the reason for whatever I am. Every entity is the sole reason for whatever it is. Basically, there are two factors for any action to occur. One is me who wants to participate in an action. The other is a set of environmental factors that seem to govern my actions. One who insists that oneself is the sole responsibility for anything that has happened to him/her would pledge his/her life to protect their belief as the truth. One who insists that the environmental factors govern everything in ones life (they would argue that whatever you think you are wanting was also fed to you from the environment once upon a time, with a good reason) would stake their lives to protect their belief as the truth. Both are basically protecting themselves because they believe that they are their beliefs. One can argue that all free wills are nothing but the inertial residue of the environmental stimuli on the corresponding individuals. At the same time, one can counter the argument that every environmental stimulus is nothing but the free will in its own sense. One can never settle a dispute between these two ideologies because they are both correct. Next comes, how can two mutually exclusive opposites can be both correct? Look at the above argument closely. Are they really opposites? They are actually exclusively inclusive of each other in the very argument. The argument has clearly shown that destiny is free will and free will is destiny. They are nothing but the same sprouting as different in our perception in a singular fashion. Just because you cannot visualize your back it does not mean it does not exist. If you turn your previous front becomes your back. The front, the back, the known, the unknown, the free will, the destiny, … they are all just illusions of the restless mind that I have! There are three variables on both sides of an action – subject and environment (objects) – known, knowable and unknowable. The known is what I insist to have a knowledge upon with my sensory approval. The knowable is the one which is still within my sensory spectrum that I have not cared to or equipped to acknowledge. The unknowable is the one that can never be perceived within my sensory spectrum that I possess or I am blessed with. Some acknowledge the futility of chasing an unknowable for it is not explorable by definition and hence is not manipulatable for one's benefits. Their opinion is, some thing that is of no benefit to me need not be acknowledged … after all, what is the use?! They obviously have to advocate that the life is run by free will. Such people are driven by desires as all their actions and beliefs hover around their desires. Their very individual identity is the set of their desires. Others acknowledge the futility of praising the known for many reasons (1) all the miseries are brought in through these knowns – ignorance is bliss – knowledge brings anticipation and fear; (2) these knowns elude us by their continuously changing attributes; and (3) after all, these knowns are useless because we are still unhappy in-spite of knowing them, in-spite of how many knowns are known; (4) No known can ever change or stop what is going to happen; (5) no known can bring us whatever we want … They obviously have to advocate that the life is run by destiny – the unknowns, The Unknowable. Such people are driven by fears as all their actions and beliefs hover around their fears. Their very individual identity is the set of their fears. To take shelter from their own fears they start believing that some unknown force protects them. We often mix up a set of known factors to define what we are and what our environment is and insist that the universe is that. One who insists that the world is governed by ONLY KNOWNS and refuse to care about the unknowns (for a good reason, anyway they are unknown and what can I do with them?!) will tend to insist that life is made of Free Will. It all depends on who I think I am. If I can define whatever I am, all such definitions depend on so many experiences I have accumulated from the environment over my life. Then where is the free will since the very definition of my very identity is nothing but a bunch of environmental stimuli? We often get carried away by the fears of uncertainties in life and declare in frustration that we are just pawns in the hands of life. One who insists that the unknowns overwhelm the knowns in all respects jump to conclude that the unknowns run the show and refuse to respect the knowns. One who insists that the world is governed by ONLY UNKNOWNS and refuses to respect the knowns (for a good reason, what great things could I achieve with them anyway?!) will tend to insist that life is made of Destiny. It all depends on who I think I am. If I can define whatever I am, all such definitions depend on so many perceptions created within my cognition. Though they seem to have been triggered by the environmental stimuli through the senses, they are received and generated uniquely by the individual – no two individual can have identical perception and experience in any event with identical characteristics. After all, the " stimuli " are generated internally based on my personality to serve my desires. It is my desire that brings in the stimuli; it is me who interpret these stimuli to make sense out of them; and it is me who manipulate them and enjoy the result. I know what I am and what I do – I am my motifs and acceptances and I do what I want and what I accept. Then where is the destiny dictating me what I am and what to do when the very definition of my identity is my motifs and acceptances? " Free will and destiny are like two wheels of a cart running together to make this life happen. " There is a danger in this … the two opposites perpetually try to corrupt each other bringing themselves to momentary agreement – letting one or the other win – in which both take rest and are ever ready to jump for the next conflict. Natural to our ignorant tendencies, we would hang on to each on the wrong side – praise oneself at success and blame some destiny at failure to attain such illusory and transitory complacence. In your perception, they are distinctly different from each other – rather alien to each other. Then how can they ever cooperate to make this balance occur? Obviously, at any conflict, they both claim their stakes to own the positive side of all the events since they are identified with their positivity in the first place – one who is identified with positivity can never accept any suggestion of negativity on oneself. The ego entertains such debates so that it can jump in to take the altar of superiority to judge the two. The ego jumps to the judgment that promotes its own positivity – tendencies. It claims itself to be the reason for what it likes; and blames the destiny for what it does not like. Either side it is clueless. It thinks it itself is the free will – but when was it free and has it ever exercised its freedom?! It blames destiny – but what is it and has it ever faced it to know what destiny is?! A clever ego actually blames the destiny sugarcoated with apparent praise – don't be fooled by that – if one does not hesitate to take the credit for " good " , he/she is not submitting to destiny even though he/she believes to be surrendering to destiny in certain situations of desperation. This tussle between praising and blaming will strengthen its ignorance further for stronger arguments in the next event. Stronger the arguments, bitter the fight, more diverge the sense of likes and dislikes, more intense the feelings in one's experience, more vehement the debating parties are, … thicker and wider the ignorance one is eclipsed with. Two wheels are not synchronized without an axle … the above argument lacks this third element – the element of unification unifying the two opposites to one. You are right, our lives are mixtures of both polarities in different intensities and proportions. One who seeks the conflicts between the polarities (Preya) in every event is bound to be consumed by the very conflict as explained above. However, one who sees the unity in the apparent conflict (Shreya) in every event is bound to be with the unity, The Bliss. Preya's focus is always on one of the wheels constantly drifting from one to another. Shreya's focus is always on the balance of the wheels and therefore has a chance to shift the focus to the axle. The Preya expands these wheels – sometimes unevenly to our torture – increasing the intensity of our conflicting tendencies by increasing their inertia. Shreya shrinks these wheels evenly in a balanced way to maintain our balance as well as to reduce our emotional intensity by reducing the inertia of our tendencies. Preya runs the two wheels in opposite directions promoting one and demoting the other ... relegating one while delegating the other. Preya instigates internal racism by letting one wheel (favored by the ego) to outpace the other letting the system swirl in its self-generated whirlpool. Shreya balances the wheel motion to be in equilibrium to start with, reduces their pace gradually, and reduces the wheels leading the system to become one with the axle eventually. At limits both theories are right … if you can stick to what you say! If you stick to pure Free Will, you have no room for miseries – after all, you are the reason for everything. If you stick to pure Destiny, you again have no room for miseries – after all you have no say in whatever is going on in this life; whatever happens is anyway destined to have happened. Since the result is the same – you cannot be miserable – both are correct. But how can you ever have absolute desire without any fear or absolute fear without any desire?! Then how can you ever be convinced with the Free Will and Destiny in isolation??!! Then how can you argue for any one of them when your very argument is a mixture of the two???!!! No! How can both free will and destiny be correct? They are mutually exclusive domains in a Venn Diagram! If one is TRUE, the other is bound to be FALSE!! No! At their absolute limits, both are exclusively inclusive of each other i.e. they are NOT DIFFERENT, they are the same. The Venn Diagram is the ignorance which perpetually insists for its own approval for all our perceptions to establish itself, to sustain itself, and to breed itself. The ignorance keeps arguing (believing itself to be the knowledge) until it faces itself (as ignorance). This duality occurs due to our partial vision. The two opposites are the illusions created in your mind. I cannot say that they are created by the mind – then they should always serve for mind's benefits! Most often, they serve the opposite!! They are not created by the objects perceived as well. Why do the objects care how you acknowledge them? They can never have a clue regarding the impressions created in your mind! Even if they could, there is no apparent benefit for them from the impressions you carry!! But the illusion persists. The mind chases this illusion in terms of desires desperately since it looses its own cognition without that. At the same time, it is being chased by the same illusion in terms of fears. It can neither outpace the illusion to satisfy its desires completely. Nor can it stop to face the fears to understand them and eradicate them. It runs away from its fears pretending that it is hunting its game to feed upon eventually. Who is the game? And, who is the predator? Ignorance believes that the mind is the predator and desire is the game. Knowledge knows that the mind is the victim of the illusion – the predator is the game and the game is the predator. The mind's chase is like the chase of a donkey running relentlessly with a stiff long stick tied tight along its back with a carrot dangling in the front and fire on the rear end. One can never judge whether it is running because of the fear of the fire on the rear or for the crave of the carrot in the front. For sure it neither captures its desires, nor does it understand its fears, but remains captive between its fears and desires thanks to its ignorance on its desires (carrot), fears (fire) as well as its tendencies (stick). The donkey never appreciates the strong pact between the carrot and the fire to boost each other right under its nose. The chase continues. It is like a mouse running inside a stagnant spinner wheel … mind never knows why it is running, but it cannot help stop due to inertia constantly fueled by fears and desires. When it is tired, it may go to sleep … but the wheel of tendencies it has built continues to spin as time passes. Every step the mouse jumps on the wheel rim, the wheel collects more momentum to sustain its own motion. The mouse never understands that it is chasing the same thing in terms of its desires that it is running away from in terms of fears. The same desire becomes fear to show itself again and again … the same fear becomes desire to show itself again and again. The game continues. Yadeveha tadamutra yadamutra tadanviha; mrityosya mrityumapnoti ya iha naneva pashyati. Manasaivedamapnavyam neha nanasti kinchana; mrityosya mrityum gachchati ya iha naneva pashyati. Respects. Naga Narayana. - " Experiment with spiritual wisdom " or " Free Will " as expressed in two posts will not stand the test, unless we know the supreme wisdom of the Creator. Naturalism " (the belief that the natural world is all there is) would lead us to believe that human beings are nothing more than generic parts in the machine of the universe and on par with dogs, frogs, and logs. Are we special and uniquely blessed by being made in the image of God like the Bible says? When we ponder God's creation of humankind, we note that He breathed life into us (Genesis 2:7) and made us " in His own image " (Genesis 1:27). Utterly unique among God's creation, we have been given a tremendous gift: The capacity to know the glorious God who created us. How unique is the human race among the various galaxies that comprise our universe? The probability of a planet anywhere in the universe fitting within all 153 parameters [required for life] is approximately 10-194. The maximum possible number of planets in the universe is estimated to be 1022. Thus, less than 1 chance in 10172 (100 thousand trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion) exists that even one such planet would occur anywhere in the universe. (Dr Hugh Ross, PhD Astrophysics, University of Toronto) The odds of a planet like ours existing anywhere in the universe, let alone containing life like ours, is infinitesimally small. Science has merely reconfirmed God's word: We are special. How awesome that " God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. " (Romans 5:8) Even though we are totally undeserving, God's mercy is still offered to all those who are willing to repent and accept it. When you are feeling insignificant, or afraid, or unloved, remember our Lord's words: " Indeed, the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Don't be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows. " (Luke 12:7) You are special, and greatly loved by God. Question: How has God made you utterly unique, even shaping you through tough times, to be who you are today? yeshu rathenam -- , " sadhak_insight " <sadhak_insight wrote: > > It is interesting......the mind looks for a definite answer....this > way or that way..... > Why not go within and know from experience....... > > experiment.....with the spiritual wisdom.....to know..... > andar ki baat hai.......andar jane se pata lagagi.... > > Sushil Jain > > dear pratap Bhai, > > my humble parnaams ... > you have Rightly explained my question Does Free Will Really > Exist ? There is Only Free Will and > That is HIS WILL > To Know or to Experience Free Will, we have to desolve our limited > Ego into the Vast Supreme Brahman... > And there we may Know What is Free Will > my sincere regards.. > kuldip Suri > > > - > , " sadhak_insight " > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > Dear Sadhakas, Namaste! > > > > Kuldipji is asking: > > The real Questions is what Is real Free Will? > > whether it truly Exists...? > > > > Real Free Will is freedom from having to have Free will! When Our > > choices are governed/determined by our Conditioning in terms of > > education, beliefs, culture, opinions, desires, fears, likes and > > dislikes, how can we have real free will? Conditioning is always > > limited due to the identification with body-mind-me sense. > > Such conditioning creates an independently existing entity, > > doer/enjoyer, and thus loses its real free will! > > When one realizes one's true nature being Atman one will have total > > Freedom. Free will is not freedom to do anything one likes! It is > to > > do right thing at right time, considering the well being of all! > It is > > thus never predetermined because right things are never absolutely > > right in all circumstances at all times! This can happen: > > IF one takes his/her stand as Atman, Absolute* Existence- > > Consciousness-Bliss, one is/has nothing but Freedom. Such freedom > is > > emnating from Intelligence of Atman-God, so only right actions are > > carried out by that person(he/she is really not a person). > > One has to see that a person is a conglomerate of thoughts, > beliefs, > > likes/dislikes, etc., put together from childhood onward. Person is > > like a reflection in the mirror of Consciousness whose reality is > > Mirror! > > > > Reflection is mistaken as a real giving one a false sense of > being > > an individual, which one is not! > > > > Pratap > > (Pratap Bhatt) > > -------------------------------- -- > > > > > > , " sadhak_insight " > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > > > Dear divine souls,,, > > > > > > > > > parnaams! > > > > > > What ever happens, it has to happen, per Universal cause and > effect. > > > Cause created in the Past, manifests in present Life, as > experienced > > > in present joy and pain. It is a part of a master plan. > > > But everything is not predetermined ! Fate is what happens. > > > But God has bestowed His FREE WILL on us, and we have control > over > > > our present actions. > > > > > > The real Questions is what Is real Free Will ? whether it truly > > Exists...? > > > > > > Please provide your insights > > > thanks > > > eternal child. > > > Kuldip Suri> > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 27, 2008 Report Share Posted April 27, 2008 dear divine souls ! In life all sorts of things offer themselves. There is a choice of action and a wrong choice produces its consequences... All is free-will or else all is destiny-- it is not so simple as that... free will and universal determinism is the most knotty of all metaphysical questions and nobody has been able to solve it. my Questions to respected Naga naryana ji is or any one who would like to respond..? If world as we see today..chaos, sufferings, violence against humanity as is His Will...Then Why krishna promises " Whenever there is the decline of Dharma and uprising of unrighteousness, then I manifest Myself " (Gita 4:7).. " For the protection of the good, as for the destruction of the evil doers, as for the establishment of righteousness, I manifest Myself for the enthroning of the Right.I am from age to age. " (Gita 4:8) He would simply had not Willed it in that way in the beginning itself? Why to create a problem in first place and then the coming of Avataras to esteblish righteousness on Earth ? this does not seem to make sense to me ? The world is manifestation of God..as we see as Cosmic Play..but.the Play of Dark forces is Not His Will the Devil or the Undivine Forces who are Dominating today in the Universe could not have been HIS WILL.. He has Sanctioned All forces to act in their own Way.. but Not Willed IT??? Pls clear my doubts being a child groping in the darkness.. Is the world we see today IS HIS WILL? my humble parnaams to ALL participating souls in this forum kuldip suri.. eternal child --- , " sadhak_insight " <sadhak_insight wrote: > > Dear Sadhaks, > You can never distrube or even interfere GOD` s plan. > GOD` s PLAN IS IN UPANASHIDS AND SCRIPTS. > DESTINED:4 yugas are time framed. Longest Sat Yug shortest Kali yug. > Exact number of years are mentioned. > Nine planets syncronised for all being on earth as when, where, to > whom, boy or girl or animal, plant etc based on one`s karma. > Humans do foresee things just few weeks/months ahead but sometime > fails. God has fixed rules on one`s action based cause and effect > for several births of a soul which works automatically in which GOD > remains witness. > > Where GOD interfers: Only in the case of true BHAKTHAS (devotees). > Not even to yogi, sanyasi, Bhramin or anyone else one can think off. > Why only to Bhaktha (true devotee): Here a bhaktha surrenders to GOD > and remains calm. Does not even worry of future or things around, > does not plan, does see GOD in all etc. IN HERE BAKTHA REMAINS > WITNESS. > Tapasvi, yogi, Sanyasi etc; They people try (make special effort) > for Mukthi (salvation) by doing all sorts of penance. HERE GOD > REMAINS WITNESS. > > When God remains witness, you are Kartha (doer), doing all penance. > When you remain witness, God takes over the doership role - kartha, > doing everything for you to elevate you. God and His divine energy > (shakti) is already in this role, but it is only ignorance that > makes us believe that we are doing. > > This concept is from BAGAVATHA DHARMA script told by 9 elevated > saints starting from Druvular, Karabaganar etc > > Sadhaks: If you can disturb GOD's plan, then you are mightier. How > can anyone be greater than God? This human life span is very very > short. Once the sukshuma (soul) leaves the body, time lapses and you > have no chance to do bakthi (worship and devotion). Your body which > you love so dearly, will not be kept even for 24 hours even if you > choose. Time is running out ... let us surrender at His lotus feet > and live by His plans. > B.Sathyanarayan > - > Is Life Free-Will or Destiny? > > Everything is destiny. Even the way you think, the reason you > breath, the incidences that you blink, the purpose you act for, is > pre-destined. If you think you did something in certain way, one can > always say that that is what you were pre-destined for. Where is the > free will here? > > Everything is free will. If I do not push myself into an act nothing > will happen from my side. If anything happens related to me, my > presence is the reason for that. I can always change my ways to > adapt the way I want. I have always been doing it. Therefore, I am > the reason for whatever I am. Every entity is the sole reason for > whatever it is. > > Basically, there are two factors for any action to occur. One is me > who wants to participate in an action. The other is a set of > environmental factors that seem to govern my actions. One who > insists that oneself is the sole responsibility for anything that > has happened to him/her would pledge his/her life to protect their > belief as the truth. One who insists that the environmental factors > govern everything in ones life (they would argue that whatever you > think you are wanting was also fed to you from the environment once > upon a time, with a good reason) would stake their lives to protect > their belief as the truth. Both are basically protecting themselves > because they believe that they are their beliefs. > > One can argue that all free wills are nothing but the inertial > residue of the environmental stimuli on the corresponding > individuals. At the same time, one can counter the argument that > every environmental stimulus is nothing but the free will in its own > sense. One can never settle a dispute between these two ideologies > because they are both correct. > > Next comes, how can two mutually exclusive opposites can be both > correct? Look at the above argument closely. Are they really > opposites? They are actually exclusively inclusive of each other in > the very argument. The argument has clearly shown that destiny is > free will and free will is destiny. They are nothing but the same > sprouting as different in our perception in a singular fashion. Just > because you cannot visualize your back it does not mean it does not > exist. If you turn your previous front becomes your back. The front, > the back, the known, the unknown, the free will, the destiny, … they > are all just illusions of the restless mind that I have! > > There are three variables on both sides of an action – subject and > environment (objects) – known, knowable and unknowable. The known is > what I insist to have a knowledge upon with my sensory approval. The > knowable is the one which is still within my sensory spectrum that I > have not cared to or equipped to acknowledge. The unknowable is the > one that can never be perceived within my sensory spectrum that I > possess or I am blessed with. > > Some acknowledge the futility of chasing an unknowable for it is not > explorable by definition and hence is not manipulatable for one's > benefits. Their opinion is, some thing that is of no benefit to me > need not be acknowledged … after all, what is the use?! They > obviously have to advocate that the life is run by free will. Such > people are driven by desires as all their actions and beliefs hover > around their desires. Their very individual identity is the set of > their desires. > > Others acknowledge the futility of praising the known for many > reasons (1) all the miseries are brought in through these knowns – > ignorance is bliss – knowledge brings anticipation and fear; (2) > these knowns elude us by their continuously changing attributes; and > (3) after all, these knowns are useless because we are still unhappy > in-spite of knowing them, in-spite of how many knowns are known; (4) > No known can ever change or stop what is going to happen; (5) no > known can bring us whatever we want … They obviously have to > advocate that the life is run by destiny – the unknowns, The > Unknowable. Such people are driven by fears as all their actions and > beliefs hover around their fears. Their very individual identity is > the set of their fears. To take shelter from their own fears they > start believing that some unknown force protects them. > > We often mix up a set of known factors to define what we are and > what our environment is and insist that the universe is that. One > who insists that the world is governed by ONLY KNOWNS and refuse to > care about the unknowns (for a good reason, anyway they are unknown > and what can I do with them?!) will tend to insist that life is made > of Free Will. > > It all depends on who I think I am. If I can define whatever I am, > all such definitions depend on so many experiences I have > accumulated from the environment over my life. Then where is the > free will since the very definition of my very identity is nothing > but a bunch of environmental stimuli? > > We often get carried away by the fears of uncertainties in life and > declare in frustration that we are just pawns in the hands of life. > One who insists that the unknowns overwhelm the knowns in all > respects jump to conclude that the unknowns run the show and refuse > to respect the knowns. One who insists that the world is governed by > ONLY UNKNOWNS and refuses to respect the knowns (for a good reason, > what great things could I achieve with them anyway?!) will tend to > insist that life is made of Destiny. > > It all depends on who I think I am. If I can define whatever I am, > all such definitions depend on so many perceptions created within my > cognition. Though they seem to have been triggered by the > environmental stimuli through the senses, they are received and > generated uniquely by the individual – no two individual can have > identical perception and experience in any event with identical > characteristics. After all, the " stimuli " are generated internally > based on my personality to serve my desires. It is my desire that > brings in the stimuli; it is me who interpret these stimuli to make > sense out of them; and it is me who manipulate them and enjoy the > result. I know what I am and what I do – I am my motifs and > acceptances and I do what I want and what I accept. Then where is > the destiny dictating me what I am and what to do when the very > definition of my identity is my motifs and acceptances? > > " Free will and destiny are like two wheels of a cart running > together to make this life happen. " > > There is a danger in this … the two opposites perpetually try to > corrupt each other bringing themselves to momentary agreement – > letting one or the other win – in which both take rest and are ever > ready to jump for the next conflict. Natural to our ignorant > tendencies, we would hang on to each on the wrong side – praise > oneself at success and blame some destiny at failure to attain such > illusory and transitory complacence. In your perception, they are > distinctly different from each other – rather alien to each other. > Then how can they ever cooperate to make this balance occur? > Obviously, at any conflict, they both claim their stakes to own the > positive side of all the events since they are identified with their > positivity in the first place – one who is identified with > positivity can never accept any suggestion of negativity on oneself. > The ego entertains such debates so that it can jump in to take the > altar of superiority to judge the two. The ego jumps to the judgment > that promotes its own positivity – tendencies. It claims itself to > be the reason for what it likes; and blames the destiny for what it > does not like. Either side it is clueless. It thinks it itself is > the free will – but when was it free and has it ever exercised its > freedom?! It blames destiny – but what is it and has it ever faced > it to know what destiny is?! A clever ego actually blames the > destiny sugarcoated with apparent praise – don't be fooled by that – > if one does not hesitate to take the credit for " good " , he/she is > not submitting to destiny even though he/she believes to be > surrendering to destiny in certain situations of desperation. This > tussle between praising and blaming will strengthen its ignorance > further for stronger arguments in the next event. Stronger the > arguments, bitter the fight, more diverge the sense of likes and > dislikes, more intense the feelings in one's experience, more > vehement the debating parties are, … thicker and wider the ignorance > one is eclipsed with. > > Two wheels are not synchronized without an axle … the above argument > lacks this third element – the element of unification unifying the > two opposites to one. You are right, our lives are mixtures of both > polarities in different intensities and proportions. One who seeks > the conflicts between the polarities (Preya) in every event is bound > to be consumed by the very conflict as explained above. However, one > who sees the unity in the apparent conflict (Shreya) in every event > is bound to be with the unity, The Bliss. Preya's focus is always on > one of the wheels constantly drifting from one to another. Shreya's > focus is always on the balance of the wheels and therefore has a > chance to shift the focus to the axle. The Preya expands these > wheels – sometimes unevenly to our torture – increasing the > intensity of our conflicting tendencies by increasing their inertia. > Shreya shrinks these wheels evenly in a balanced way to maintain our > balance as well as to reduce our emotional intensity by reducing the > inertia of our tendencies. Preya runs the two wheels in opposite > directions promoting one and demoting the other ... relegating one > while delegating the other. Preya instigates internal racism by > letting one wheel (favored by the ego) to outpace the other letting > the system swirl in its self-generated whirlpool. Shreya balances > the wheel motion to be in equilibrium to start with, reduces their > pace gradually, and reduces the wheels leading the system to become > one with the axle eventually. > > At limits both theories are right … if you can stick to what you > say! If you stick to pure Free Will, you have no room for miseries – > after all, you are the reason for everything. If you stick to pure > Destiny, you again have no room for miseries – after all you have no > say in whatever is going on in this life; whatever happens is anyway > destined to have happened. Since the result is the same – you cannot > be miserable – both are correct. But how can you ever have absolute > desire without any fear or absolute fear without any desire?! Then > how can you ever be convinced with the Free Will and Destiny in > isolation??!! Then how can you argue for any one of them when your > very argument is a mixture of the two???!!! > > No! How can both free will and destiny be correct? They are mutually > exclusive domains in a Venn Diagram! If one is TRUE, the other is > bound to be FALSE!! > > No! At their absolute limits, both are exclusively inclusive of each > other i.e. they are NOT DIFFERENT, they are the same. The Venn > Diagram is the ignorance which perpetually insists for its own > approval for all our perceptions to establish itself, to sustain > itself, and to breed itself. The ignorance keeps arguing (believing > itself to be the knowledge) until it faces itself (as ignorance). > > This duality occurs due to our partial vision. The two opposites are > the illusions created in your mind. I cannot say that they are > created by the mind – then they should always serve for mind's > benefits! Most often, they serve the opposite!! They are not created > by the objects perceived as well. Why do the objects care how you > acknowledge them? They can never have a clue regarding the > impressions created in your mind! Even if they could, there is no > apparent benefit for them from the impressions you carry!! But the > illusion persists. The mind chases this illusion in terms of desires > desperately since it looses its own cognition without that. At the > same time, it is being chased by the same illusion in terms of > fears. It can neither outpace the illusion to satisfy its desires > completely. Nor can it stop to face the fears to understand them and > eradicate them. It runs away from its fears pretending that it is > hunting its game to feed upon eventually. Who is the game? And, who > is the predator? Ignorance believes that the mind is the predator > and desire is the game. Knowledge knows that the mind is the victim > of the illusion – the predator is the game and the game is the > predator. > > The mind's chase is like the chase of a donkey running relentlessly > with a stiff long stick tied tight along its back with a carrot > dangling in the front and fire on the rear end. One can never judge > whether it is running because of the fear of the fire on the rear or > for the crave of the carrot in the front. For sure it neither > captures its desires, nor does it understand its fears, but remains > captive between its fears and desires thanks to its ignorance on its > desires (carrot), fears (fire) as well as its tendencies (stick). > The donkey never appreciates the strong pact between the carrot and > the fire to boost each other right under its nose. The chase > continues. > > It is like a mouse running inside a stagnant spinner wheel … mind > never knows why it is running, but it cannot help stop due to > inertia constantly fueled by fears and desires. When it is tired, it > may go to sleep … but the wheel of tendencies it has built continues > to spin as time passes. Every step the mouse jumps on the wheel rim, > the wheel collects more momentum to sustain its own motion. The > mouse never understands that it is chasing the same thing in terms > of its desires that it is running away from in terms of fears. The > same desire becomes fear to show itself again and again … the same > fear becomes desire to show itself again and again. The game > continues. > > Yadeveha tadamutra yadamutra tadanviha; > mrityosya mrityumapnoti ya iha naneva pashyati. > > Manasaivedamapnavyam neha nanasti kinchana; > mrityosya mrityum gachchati ya iha naneva pashyati. > > Respects. > > Naga Narayana. > > - > > " Experiment with spiritual wisdom " or " Free Will " as expressed in > two posts will not stand the test, unless we know the supreme wisdom > of the Creator. > > Naturalism " (the belief that the natural world is all there is) would > lead us to believe that human beings are nothing more than generic > parts in the machine of the universe and on par with dogs, frogs, > and logs. Are we special and uniquely blessed by being made in the > image of God like the Bible says? > > When we ponder God's creation of humankind, we note that He breathed > life into us (Genesis 2:7) and made us " in His own image " (Genesis > 1:27). Utterly unique among God's creation, we have been given a > tremendous gift: The capacity to know the glorious God who created > us. How unique is the human race among the various galaxies that > comprise our universe? > > The probability of a planet anywhere in the universe fitting within > all 153 parameters [required for life] is approximately 10-194. The > maximum possible number of planets in the universe is estimated to > be 1022. Thus, less than 1 chance in 10172 (100 thousand trillion > trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion > trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion) exists that even one > such planet would occur anywhere in the universe. (Dr Hugh Ross, PhD > Astrophysics, University of Toronto) > > The odds of a planet like ours existing anywhere in the universe, let > alone containing life like ours, is infinitesimally small. Science > has merely reconfirmed God's word: We are special. > > How awesome that " God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While > we were still sinners, Christ died for us. " (Romans 5:8) Even though > we are totally undeserving, God's mercy is still offered to all > those who are willing to repent and accept it. > > When you are feeling insignificant, or afraid, or unloved, remember > our Lord's words: " Indeed, the very hairs of your head are all > numbered. Don't be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows. " > (Luke 12:7) You are special, and greatly loved by God. > > Question: How has God made you utterly unique, even shaping you > through tough times, to be who you are today? > > yeshu rathenam > > - - > , " sadhak_insight " > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > It is interesting......the mind looks for a definite answer....this > > way or that way..... > > Why not go within and know from experience....... > > > > experiment.....with the spiritual wisdom.....to know..... > > andar ki baat hai.......andar jane se pata lagagi.... > > > > Sushil Jain > > -------------------------------- - > > dear pratap Bhai, > > > > my humble parnaams ... > > you have Rightly explained my question Does Free Will Really > > Exist ? There is Only Free Will and > > That is HIS WILL > > To Know or to Experience Free Will, we have to desolve our limited > > Ego into the Vast Supreme Brahman... > > And there we may Know What is Free Will > > my sincere regards.. > > kuldip Suri > > > > > > -------------------------------- -- > > , " sadhak_insight " > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > > > Dear Sadhakas, Namaste! > > > > > > Kuldipji is asking: > > > The real Questions is what Is real Free Will? > > > whether it truly Exists...? > > > > > > Real Free Will is freedom from having to have Free will! When Our > > > choices are governed/determined by our Conditioning in terms of > > > education, beliefs, culture, opinions, desires, fears, likes and > > > dislikes, how can we have real free will? Conditioning is always > > > limited due to the identification with body-mind-me sense. > > > Such conditioning creates an independently existing entity, > > > doer/enjoyer, and thus loses its real free will! > > > When one realizes one's true nature being Atman one will have > total > > > Freedom. Free will is not freedom to do anything one likes! It is > > to > > > do right thing at right time, considering the well being of all! > > It is > > > thus never predetermined because right things are never > absolutely > > > right in all circumstances at all times! This can happen: > > > IF one takes his/her stand as Atman, Absolute* Existence- > > > Consciousness-Bliss, one is/has nothing but Freedom. Such freedom > > is > > > emnating from Intelligence of Atman-God, so only right actions > are > > > carried out by that person(he/she is really not a person). > > > One has to see that a person is a conglomerate of thoughts, > > beliefs, > > > likes/dislikes, etc., put together from childhood onward. Person > is > > > like a reflection in the mirror of Consciousness whose reality is > > > Mirror! > > > > > > Reflection is mistaken as a real giving one a false sense of > > being > > > an individual, which one is not! > > > > > > Pratap > > > (Pratap Bhatt) > > > ------------------------------ -- > -- > > > > > > > > > , " sadhak_insight " > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear divine souls,,, > > > > > > > > > > > > parnaams! > > > > > > > > What ever happens, it has to happen, per Universal cause and > > effect. > > > > Cause created in the Past, manifests in present Life, as > > experienced > > > > in present joy and pain. It is a part of a master plan. > > > > But everything is not predetermined ! Fate is what happens. > > > > But God has bestowed His FREE WILL on us, and we have control > > over > > > > our present actions. > > > > > > > > The real Questions is what Is real Free Will ? whether it truly > > > Exists...? > > > > > > > > Please provide your insights > > > > thanks > > > > eternal child. > > > > Kuldip Suri> > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 27, 2008 Report Share Posted April 27, 2008 The questions Kuldipji brought out are the very ones that Sanatana Dharma alone has tackled and other faiths failed. In a very simplistic way it is explained that God has created all the laws under the umbrella of 'Cosmic Intelligence' or Universal Consciousness. God has nothing to do with their use and evolution of individual entity. It is easy to understand taking the material example and extend the logic to the Intelligence level. Sun gives us all that is needed to sustain life on earth. Without his presence, not a blade of grass grows and if there is no food, there is no life created on sustained. " Annad bhavanti Bhutaani prajanayd anna sambhavah .... " from Gita. If I want to expose myself to the Sun in California desert continuously for days and kill myself with skin cancer, Sun is not responsible for that. He gives all that is needed but how we utilize and evolve is our (Creatures) responsibility which in varied ways expressed as acquired Karma. Since God is only witness, He has no responsibility for how we use/misuse his laws. Again taking another material example of pollution, if we create lot of pollution, nature makes that place inhabitable and living beings move away to a better place. The law of this migration is also provided by Him. Coming to God's statement that I will be taking up a new incarnation to correct the bad things, we can think in terms of HIM coming up with new laws as he is the ONE who proclaims them. For example he can take away the SUN from us and leaving the earth completely destroyed. But life prospers perhaps in another galaxy. Nature's corrective mechanism is a beautiful control system. It takes the feedback of the error and corrects it in terms of change of climate, change of seasons etc. as we are able to comprehend. GOD comes in if this corrective mechanism is not working and the error is too large that nature is unable to correct it. Words have limitations to express. Vedic texts explain the fundamentals in different styles and different examples to drive home the central point. We need to understand all the statements with deeper meaning. If there is an order (Niyata) in the universe, there must be someone (Niyanta) who created that order that is GOD. I am glad to participate in this dialog. It is the only way to understand the real strength of our scriptures. In summary, these scriptures tell us that the Creation and Evolution both are valid in their own way. One to create the universal laws and the other to evolve based on them to realize the laws. This is the purpose of life at all levels it appears. Hari OM. B Vempaty --- HE watches the kaledoscopic play as created by reflection of My EGO, Physical Laws that HE Created, and My Past Karmas. When I see the same event in others life I see the factors at play, choices -right and wrong - they make and the randomness of, or devine will in the outcome. When similar things happen in my life, I see it as suffering or triumph, rather than being a witness to what happened. May HE lead us from darkness to light. HEMENDRA PARIKH -- All is free-will or else all is destiny.? " destiny in the rigid sense applies only to the outer being so long as it lives in the Ignorance. What we call destiny is only in fact the result of the present condition of the being and the nature and energies it has acumulated in the past acting on each other and determining the present attempts and their future results. But as soon as one enters the path of spiritual life, this old predetermined destiny begins to recede. There comes in a new factor, The Divine Grace....the help of of a higher Divine Force other than the force of Karma....which can lift the sadhak beyond the present possibilties of his nature. One's spiritual destiny is then the divine election which ensures the future. The only doubt is about the vicissitudes of the Path and the time to be taken by the passage. It is here that the hostile forces playing on the weaknesses of the past nature strive to prevent the rapidity of the progress and to postpone the fulfillment. Those who fall, fall not because of the attacks of the vital forces, but because they put themselves on the side of the hostile Force and prefer a vital ambition of desire (ambition,vanity,lust,etc.) to the spiritual siddhi... (few words complied from Sri aurobindo's letters On Yoga...) kuldip suri - , " sadhak_insight " <sadhak_insight wrote: > > dear divine souls ! > > In life all sorts of things offer themselves. There is a choice of > action and a wrong choice produces its consequences... > > All is free-will or else all is destiny-- it is not so simple as > that... free will and universal determinism is the most knotty of > all metaphysical questions and nobody has been able > to solve it. > > my Questions to respected Naga naryana ji is or any one who would > like to respond..? > If world as we see today..chaos, sufferings, violence against > humanity as is His Will...Then Why krishna promises > > " Whenever there is the decline of Dharma and uprising of > unrighteousness, then I manifest Myself " (Gita 4:7).. > " For the protection of the good, as for the destruction of the evil > doers, as for the establishment of righteousness, I manifest Myself > for the enthroning of the Right.I am from age to age. " (Gita 4:8) > > He would simply had not Willed it in that way in the beginning > itself? Why to create a problem in first place and then the coming > of Avataras to esteblish righteousness on Earth ? this does not > seem to make sense to me ? > > The world is manifestation of God..as we see as Cosmic Play..but.the > Play of Dark forces is Not His Will the Devil or the Undivine > Forces who are Dominating today in the Universe could not have been > HIS WILL.. He has Sanctioned All forces to act in their own Way.. > but Not Willed IT??? > > Pls clear my doubts being a child groping in the > darkness.. > > Is the world we see today IS HIS WILL? > > my humble parnaams to ALL participating souls in this > forum > > kuldip suri.. > eternal child > > - -- > , " sadhak_insight " > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > Dear Sadhaks, > > You can never distrube or even interfere GOD` s plan. > > GOD` s PLAN IS IN UPANASHIDS AND SCRIPTS. > > DESTINED:4 yugas are time framed. Longest Sat Yug shortest Kali > yug. > > Exact number of years are mentioned. > > Nine planets syncronised for all being on earth as when, where, to > > whom, boy or girl or animal, plant etc based on one`s karma. > > Humans do foresee things just few weeks/months ahead but sometime > > fails. God has fixed rules on one`s action based cause and effect > > for several births of a soul which works automatically in which > GOD > > remains witness. > > > > Where GOD interfers: Only in the case of true BHAKTHAS (devotees). > > Not even to yogi, sanyasi, Bhramin or anyone else one can think > off. > > Why only to Bhaktha (true devotee): Here a bhaktha surrenders to > GOD > > and remains calm. Does not even worry of future or things around, > > does not plan, does see GOD in all etc. IN HERE BAKTHA REMAINS > > WITNESS. > > Tapasvi, yogi, Sanyasi etc; They people try (make special effort) > > for Mukthi (salvation) by doing all sorts of penance. HERE GOD > > REMAINS WITNESS. > > > > When God remains witness, you are Kartha (doer), doing all > penance. > > When you remain witness, God takes over the doership role - > kartha, > > doing everything for you to elevate you. God and His divine energy > > (shakti) is already in this role, but it is only ignorance that > > makes us believe that we are doing. > > > > This concept is from BAGAVATHA DHARMA script told by 9 elevated > > saints starting from Druvular, Karabaganar etc > > > > Sadhaks: If you can disturb GOD's plan, then you are mightier. How > > can anyone be greater than God? This human life span is very very > > short. Once the sukshuma (soul) leaves the body, time lapses and > you > > have no chance to do bakthi (worship and devotion). Your body > which > > you love so dearly, will not be kept even for 24 hours even if you > > choose. Time is running out ... let us surrender at His lotus > feet > > and live by His plans. > > B.Sathyanarayan > > -------------------------------- -- > > Is Life Free-Will or Destiny? > > > > Everything is destiny. Even the way you think, the reason you > > breath, the incidences that you blink, the purpose you act for, is > > pre-destined. If you think you did something in certain way, one > can > > always say that that is what you were pre-destined for. Where is > the > > free will here? > > > > Everything is free will. If I do not push myself into an act > nothing > > will happen from my side. If anything happens related to me, my > > presence is the reason for that. I can always change my ways to > > adapt the way I want. I have always been doing it. Therefore, I am > > the reason for whatever I am. Every entity is the sole reason for > > whatever it is. > > > > Basically, there are two factors for any action to occur. One is me > > who wants to participate in an action. The other is a set of > > environmental factors that seem to govern my actions. One who > > insists that oneself is the sole responsibility for anything that > > has happened to him/her would pledge his/her life to protect their > > belief as the truth. One who insists that the environmental factors > > govern everything in ones life (they would argue that whatever you > > think you are wanting was also fed to you from the environment once > > upon a time, with a good reason) would stake their lives to protect > > their belief as the truth. Both are basically protecting themselves > > because they believe that they are their beliefs. > > > > One can argue that all free wills are nothing but the inertial > > residue of the environmental stimuli on the corresponding > > individuals. At the same time, one can counter the argument that > > every environmental stimulus is nothing but the free will in its > own > > sense. One can never settle a dispute between these two ideologies > > because they are both correct. > > > > Next comes, how can two mutually exclusive opposites can be both > > correct? Look at the above argument closely. Are they really > > opposites? They are actually exclusively inclusive of each other in > > the very argument. The argument has clearly shown that destiny is > > free will and free will is destiny. They are nothing but the same > > sprouting as different in our perception in a singular fashion. > Just > > because you cannot visualize your back it does not mean it does not > > exist. If you turn your previous front becomes your back. The > front, > > the back, the known, the unknown, the free will, the destiny, … > they > > are all just illusions of the restless mind that I have! > > > > There are three variables on both sides of an action – subject and > > environment (objects) – known, knowable and unknowable. The known > is > > what I insist to have a knowledge upon with my sensory approval. > The > > knowable is the one which is still within my sensory spectrum that > I > > have not cared to or equipped to acknowledge. The unknowable is the > > one that can never be perceived within my sensory spectrum that I > > possess or I am blessed with. > > > > Some acknowledge the futility of chasing an unknowable for it is > not > > explorable by definition and hence is not manipulatable for one's > > benefits. Their opinion is, some thing that is of no benefit to me > > need not be acknowledged … after all, what is the use?! They > > obviously have to advocate that the life is run by free will. Such > > people are driven by desires as all their actions and beliefs hover > > around their desires. Their very individual identity is the set of > > their desires. > > > > Others acknowledge the futility of praising the known for many > > reasons (1) all the miseries are brought in through these knowns – > > ignorance is bliss – knowledge brings anticipation and fear; (2) > > these knowns elude us by their continuously changing attributes; > and > > (3) after all, these knowns are useless because we are still > unhappy > > in-spite of knowing them, in-spite of how many knowns are known; > (4) > > No known can ever change or stop what is going to happen; (5) no > > known can bring us whatever we want … They obviously have to > > advocate that the life is run by destiny – the unknowns, The > > Unknowable. Such people are driven by fears as all their actions > and > > beliefs hover around their fears. Their very individual identity is > > the set of their fears. To take shelter from their own fears they > > start believing that some unknown force protects them. > > > > We often mix up a set of known factors to define what we are and > > what our environment is and insist that the universe is that. One > > who insists that the world is governed by ONLY KNOWNS and refuse to > > care about the unknowns (for a good reason, anyway they are unknown > > and what can I do with them?!) will tend to insist that life is > made > > of Free Will. > > > > It all depends on who I think I am. If I can define whatever I am, > > all such definitions depend on so many experiences I have > > accumulated from the environment over my life. Then where is the > > free will since the very definition of my very identity is nothing > > but a bunch of environmental stimuli? > > > > We often get carried away by the fears of uncertainties in life and > > declare in frustration that we are just pawns in the hands of life. > > One who insists that the unknowns overwhelm the knowns in all > > respects jump to conclude that the unknowns run the show and refuse > > to respect the knowns. One who insists that the world is governed > by > > ONLY UNKNOWNS and refuses to respect the knowns (for a good reason, > > what great things could I achieve with them anyway?!) will tend to > > insist that life is made of Destiny. > > > > It all depends on who I think I am. If I can define whatever I am, > > all such definitions depend on so many perceptions created within > my > > cognition. Though they seem to have been triggered by the > > environmental stimuli through the senses, they are received and > > generated uniquely by the individual – no two individual can have > > identical perception and experience in any event with identical > > characteristics. After all, the " stimuli " are generated internally > > based on my personality to serve my desires. It is my desire that > > brings in the stimuli; it is me who interpret these stimuli to make > > sense out of them; and it is me who manipulate them and enjoy the > > result. I know what I am and what I do – I am my motifs and > > acceptances and I do what I want and what I accept. Then where is > > the destiny dictating me what I am and what to do when the very > > definition of my identity is my motifs and acceptances? > > > > " Free will and destiny are like two wheels of a cart running > > together to make this life happen. " > > > > There is a danger in this … the two opposites perpetually try to > > corrupt each other bringing themselves to momentary agreement – > > letting one or the other win – in which both take rest and are ever > > ready to jump for the next conflict. Natural to our ignorant > > tendencies, we would hang on to each on the wrong side – praise > > oneself at success and blame some destiny at failure to attain such > > illusory and transitory complacence. In your perception, they are > > distinctly different from each other – rather alien to each other. > > Then how can they ever cooperate to make this balance occur? > > Obviously, at any conflict, they both claim their stakes to own the > > positive side of all the events since they are identified with > their > > positivity in the first place – one who is identified with > > positivity can never accept any suggestion of negativity on > oneself. > > The ego entertains such debates so that it can jump in to take the > > altar of superiority to judge the two. The ego jumps to the > judgment > > that promotes its own positivity – tendencies. It claims itself to > > be the reason for what it likes; and blames the destiny for what it > > does not like. Either side it is clueless. It thinks it itself is > > the free will – but when was it free and has it ever exercised its > > freedom?! It blames destiny – but what is it and has it ever faced > > it to know what destiny is?! A clever ego actually blames the > > destiny sugarcoated with apparent praise – don't be fooled by > that – > > if one does not hesitate to take the credit for " good " , he/she is > > not submitting to destiny even though he/she believes to be > > surrendering to destiny in certain situations of desperation. This > > tussle between praising and blaming will strengthen its ignorance > > further for stronger arguments in the next event. Stronger the > > arguments, bitter the fight, more diverge the sense of likes and > > dislikes, more intense the feelings in one's experience, more > > vehement the debating parties are, … thicker and wider the > ignorance > > one is eclipsed with. > > > > Two wheels are not synchronized without an axle … the above > argument > > lacks this third element – the element of unification unifying the > > two opposites to one. You are right, our lives are mixtures of both > > polarities in different intensities and proportions. One who seeks > > the conflicts between the polarities (Preya) in every event is > bound > > to be consumed by the very conflict as explained above. However, > one > > who sees the unity in the apparent conflict (Shreya) in every event > > is bound to be with the unity, The Bliss. Preya's focus is always > on > > one of the wheels constantly drifting from one to another. Shreya's > > focus is always on the balance of the wheels and therefore has a > > chance to shift the focus to the axle. The Preya expands these > > wheels – sometimes unevenly to our torture – increasing the > > intensity of our conflicting tendencies by increasing their > inertia. > > Shreya shrinks these wheels evenly in a balanced way to maintain > our > > balance as well as to reduce our emotional intensity by reducing > the > > inertia of our tendencies. Preya runs the two wheels in opposite > > directions promoting one and demoting the other ... relegating one > > while delegating the other. Preya instigates internal racism by > > letting one wheel (favored by the ego) to outpace the other letting > > the system swirl in its self-generated whirlpool. Shreya balances > > the wheel motion to be in equilibrium to start with, reduces their > > pace gradually, and reduces the wheels leading the system to become > > one with the axle eventually. > > > > At limits both theories are right … if you can stick to what you > > say! If you stick to pure Free Will, you have no room for > miseries – > > after all, you are the reason for everything. If you stick to pure > > Destiny, you again have no room for miseries – after all you have > no > > say in whatever is going on in this life; whatever happens is > anyway > > destined to have happened. Since the result is the same – you > cannot > > be miserable – both are correct. But how can you ever have absolute > > desire without any fear or absolute fear without any desire?! Then > > how can you ever be convinced with the Free Will and Destiny in > > isolation??!! Then how can you argue for any one of them when your > > very argument is a mixture of the two???!!! > > > > No! How can both free will and destiny be correct? They are > mutually > > exclusive domains in a Venn Diagram! If one is TRUE, the other is > > bound to be FALSE!! > > > > No! At their absolute limits, both are exclusively inclusive of > each > > other i.e. they are NOT DIFFERENT, they are the same. The Venn > > Diagram is the ignorance which perpetually insists for its own > > approval for all our perceptions to establish itself, to sustain > > itself, and to breed itself. The ignorance keeps arguing (believing > > itself to be the knowledge) until it faces itself (as ignorance). > > > > This duality occurs due to our partial vision. The two opposites > are > > the illusions created in your mind. I cannot say that they are > > created by the mind – then they should always serve for mind's > > benefits! Most often, they serve the opposite!! They are not > created > > by the objects perceived as well. Why do the objects care how you > > acknowledge them? They can never have a clue regarding the > > impressions created in your mind! Even if they could, there is no > > apparent benefit for them from the impressions you carry!! But the > > illusion persists. The mind chases this illusion in terms of > desires > > desperately since it looses its own cognition without that. At the > > same time, it is being chased by the same illusion in terms of > > fears. It can neither outpace the illusion to satisfy its desires > > completely. Nor can it stop to face the fears to understand them > and > > eradicate them. It runs away from its fears pretending that it is > > hunting its game to feed upon eventually. Who is the game? And, who > > is the predator? Ignorance believes that the mind is the predator > > and desire is the game. Knowledge knows that the mind is the victim > > of the illusion – the predator is the game and the game is the > > predator. > > > > The mind's chase is like the chase of a donkey running relentlessly > > with a stiff long stick tied tight along its back with a carrot > > dangling in the front and fire on the rear end. One can never judge > > whether it is running because of the fear of the fire on the rear > or > > for the crave of the carrot in the front. For sure it neither > > captures its desires, nor does it understand its fears, but remains > > captive between its fears and desires thanks to its ignorance on > its > > desires (carrot), fears (fire) as well as its tendencies (stick). > > The donkey never appreciates the strong pact between the carrot and > > the fire to boost each other right under its nose. The chase > > continues. > > > > It is like a mouse running inside a stagnant spinner wheel … mind > > never knows why it is running, but it cannot help stop due to > > inertia constantly fueled by fears and desires. When it is tired, > it > > may go to sleep … but the wheel of tendencies it has built > continues > > to spin as time passes. Every step the mouse jumps on the wheel > rim, > > the wheel collects more momentum to sustain its own motion. The > > mouse never understands that it is chasing the same thing in terms > > of its desires that it is running away from in terms of fears. The > > same desire becomes fear to show itself again and again … the same > > fear becomes desire to show itself again and again. The game > > continues. > > > > Yadeveha tadamutra yadamutra tadanviha; > > mrityosya mrityumapnoti ya iha naneva pashyati. > > > > Manasaivedamapnavyam neha nanasti kinchana; > > mrityosya mrityum gachchati ya iha naneva pashyati. > > > > Respects. > > > > Naga Narayana. > > > > -------------------------------- -- > > > > " Experiment with spiritual wisdom " or " Free Will " as expressed in > > two posts will not stand the test, unless we know the supreme > wisdom > > of the Creator. > > > > Naturalism " (the belief that the natural world is all there is) > would > > lead us to believe that human beings are nothing more than generic > > parts in the machine of the universe and on par with dogs, frogs, > > and logs. Are we special and uniquely blessed by being made in the > > image of God like the Bible says? > > > > When we ponder God's creation of humankind, we note that He > breathed > > life into us (Genesis 2:7) and made us " in His own image " (Genesis > > 1:27). Utterly unique among God's creation, we have been given a > > tremendous gift: The capacity to know the glorious God who created > > us. How unique is the human race among the various galaxies that > > comprise our universe? > > > > The probability of a planet anywhere in the universe fitting > within > > all 153 parameters [required for life] is approximately 10-194. The > > maximum possible number of planets in the universe is estimated to > > be 1022. Thus, less than 1 chance in 10172 (100 thousand trillion > > trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion > > trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion) exists that even one > > such planet would occur anywhere in the universe. (Dr Hugh Ross, > PhD > > Astrophysics, University of Toronto) > > > > The odds of a planet like ours existing anywhere in the universe, > let > > alone containing life like ours, is infinitesimally small. Science > > has merely reconfirmed God's word: We are special. > > > > How awesome that " God demonstrates his own love for us in this: > While > > we were still sinners, Christ died for us. " (Romans 5:8) Even > though > > we are totally undeserving, God's mercy is still offered to all > > those who are willing to repent and accept it. > > > > When you are feeling insignificant, or afraid, or unloved, > remember > > our Lord's words: " Indeed, the very hairs of your head are all > > numbered. Don't be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows. " > > (Luke 12:7) You are special, and greatly loved by God. > > > > Question: How has God made you utterly unique, even shaping you > > through tough times, to be who you are today? > > > > yeshu rathenam > > > > -------------------------------- -- > - > > , " sadhak_insight " > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > > > It is interesting......the mind looks for a definite > answer....this > > > way or that way..... > > > Why not go within and know from experience....... > > > > > > experiment.....with the spiritual wisdom.....to know..... > > > andar ki baat hai.......andar jane se pata lagagi.... > > > > > > Sushil Jain > > > ------------------------------ -- > - > > > dear pratap Bhai, > > > > > > my humble parnaams ... > > > you have Rightly explained my question Does Free Will Really > > > Exist ? There is Only Free Will and > > > That is HIS WILL > > > To Know or to Experience Free Will, we have to desolve our > limited > > > Ego into the Vast Supreme Brahman... > > > And there we may Know What is Free Will > > > my sincere regards.. > > > kuldip Suri > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ -- > -- > > > , " sadhak_insight " > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear Sadhakas, Namaste! > > > > > > > > Kuldipji is asking: > > > > The real Questions is what Is real Free Will? > > > > whether it truly Exists...? > > > > > > > > Real Free Will is freedom from having to have Free will! When > Our > > > > choices are governed/determined by our Conditioning in terms of > > > > education, beliefs, culture, opinions, desires, fears, likes > and > > > > dislikes, how can we have real free will? Conditioning is > always > > > > limited due to the identification with body-mind-me sense. > > > > Such conditioning creates an independently existing entity, > > > > doer/enjoyer, and thus loses its real free will! > > > > When one realizes one's true nature being Atman one will have > > total > > > > Freedom. Free will is not freedom to do anything one likes! It > is > > > to > > > > do right thing at right time, considering the well being of > all! > > > It is > > > > thus never predetermined because right things are never > > absolutely > > > > right in all circumstances at all times! This can happen: > > > > IF one takes his/her stand as Atman, Absolute* Existence- > > > > Consciousness-Bliss, one is/has nothing but Freedom. Such > freedom > > > is > > > > emnating from Intelligence of Atman-God, so only right actions > > are > > > > carried out by that person(he/she is really not a person). > > > > One has to see that a person is a conglomerate of thoughts, > > > beliefs, > > > > likes/dislikes, etc., put together from childhood onward. > Person > > is > > > > like a reflection in the mirror of Consciousness whose reality > is > > > > Mirror! > > > > > > > > Reflection is mistaken as a real giving one a false sense of > > > being > > > > an individual, which one is not! > > > > > > > > Pratap > > > > (Pratap Bhatt) > > > > ---------------------------- -- > -- > > -- > > > > > > > > > > > > , " sadhak_insight " > > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Dear divine souls,,, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > parnaams! > > > > > > > > > > What ever happens, it has to happen, per Universal cause and > > > effect. > > > > > Cause created in the Past, manifests in present Life, as > > > experienced > > > > > in present joy and pain. It is a part of a master plan. > > > > > But everything is not predetermined ! Fate is what happens. > > > > > But God has bestowed His FREE WILL on us, and we have control > > > over > > > > > our present actions. > > > > > > > > > > The real Questions is what Is real Free Will ? whether it > truly > > > > Exists...? > > > > > > > > > > Please provide your insights > > > > > thanks > > > > > eternal child. > > > > > Kuldip Suri> > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 10, 2008 Report Share Posted May 10, 2008 Can we really disturb God's plans ?? Are we that powerful ? When he makes a blueprint to do something, does he leave out grey areas such that ordinary humans can interefere with them ? sampuran Singh -------------------------------- Dear Sadaks, There is a choice of action and a wrong choice produces its consequences. The above line is wrong action produces wrong results. Human blessed with intellect which animal do not have. Human has gone through several births from plants to animals and finally got birth as human. This is said in Geetha, Vivekachudami, Manasha Panchakam, and by numerous saints, very clearly in Narayaniyam. So the statement very authentic. That is why human birth is considered extremely difficult to get. Human has been gifted to raise to divinity or go to lower births by using the intellect rightly or wrongly. This choice Bhagavan has clearly given. Animals have no choice, even if they are slaughtered they remain unaware and helpless. Recent scientific finding shows they produce certain liquid fearing their death just about to be slaugtered, but helpless. All free will is available only to humans in choice of action. Elevate to divinity or rebirths to suffer. Ultimately one day the soul reaches GOD. In Geetha Bagavan says, " Aneka Samsiddaya------- " All chaos suffering violence is not only to humans. It also towards Pancha boothas, nature, and animals. Those who are involved in it, is their designed life based on their cause and effects. You cannot touch or harm the true Baktha of Sri Krishna. This is evident from so many (100 `s of ) life true history of saints. Yet I give only few. Adi Sankara was to be beheaded. Was saved. Buddha was to be killed and was saved. Abiramai Battar was to be hanged. Mother Abirami appeared and saved. Tukaram was ordered to be executed by Maratha shivaji. Panduranga saved. Old lady Pittu was to be lashed, but Bagavan Shiva appeared and saved. Read history of Shena Nayak, Sant Sakunthala, Baktha Gora, Purandera Doss etc where in Bagavan came as servant and shown to the world his benevolence of establishing Dharma. Sri Krishna promise is that when Dharma declines HE will save. Where is Dharma? Dharma is with Dharmathuma (divine ones). Few unruly are fighting and why should Bagavan come. Unruly is showing their might, so Bagavan remains witness only. Mother Drowpathi was being disrobed and she was crying for help with elders there. When she lost all hopes and only when she left her one hand holding her under garment, and raised both hands and called Bagavan, " Shanka Chakra Ghada Paani Dwaraka nillaya achuda----- " , Bagavan gave her clothing and protection. Surely he establishes Dharma when required, to the righteous person (HIS BAKTHA) HE is not witness there. HE keeps up HIS promise NOT to unruly elements, bad one, wicked ones. So please understand clearly HIS wordings and it`s inner truths. Adharma was at large, with even Bishma, Achariyas, Kings, brothers, within family, when Sri Krishna was to appear and start samhar from tender age of few months killing Akasura, Bakasura etc. Parasurama appeared when all kings were unrighteous. So avatars are necessary only in case of society at large. That comes as Kalki Avathar. We cannot plan positively for a week. Bagavan plans are perfect for millions of years ahead. Our knowledge is very limited and GOD` s unlimited. Bagavan is said as Purushotaman (Flawless- pure-benovolent- Karuniya etc) We create problem and Bagavan comes to rectify, as mother comes to rescue her children. B.Sathyanarayan. , " sadhak_insight " <sadhak_insight wrote: > > The questions Kuldipji brought out are the very ones that Sanatana > Dharma alone has tackled and other faiths failed. In a very > simplistic way it is explained that God has created all the laws > under the umbrella of 'Cosmic Intelligence' or Universal > Consciousness. God has nothing to do with their use and evolution > of individual entity. It is easy to understand taking the material > example and extend the logic to the Intelligence level. Sun gives > us all that is needed to sustain life on earth. Without his > presence, not a blade of grass grows and if there is no food, there > is no life created on sustained. " Annad bhavanti Bhutaani > prajanayd anna sambhavah .... " from Gita. If I want to expose > myself to the Sun in California desert continuously for days and > kill myself with skin cancer, Sun is not responsible for that. He > gives all that is needed but how we utilize and evolve is our > (Creatures) responsibility which in varied ways expressed as > acquired Karma. Since God is only witness, He has no responsibility > for how we use/misuse his laws. Again taking another material > example of pollution, if we create lot of pollution, nature makes > that place inhabitable and living beings move away to a better > place. The law of this migration is also provided by Him. > > Coming to God's statement that I will be taking up a new incarnation > to correct the bad things, we can think in terms of HIM coming up > with new laws as he is the ONE who proclaims them. For example he > can take away the SUN from us and leaving the earth completely > destroyed. But life prospers perhaps in another galaxy. Nature's > corrective mechanism is a beautiful control system. It takes the > feedback of the error and corrects it in terms of change of climate, > change of seasons etc. as we are able to comprehend. GOD comes in if > this corrective mechanism is not working and the error is too large > that nature is unable to correct it. > > Words have limitations to express. Vedic texts explain the > fundamentals in different styles and different examples to drive > home the central point. We need to understand all the statements > with deeper meaning. If there is an order (Niyata) in the universe, > there must be someone (Niyanta) who created that order that is GOD. > I am glad to participate in this dialog. It is the only way to > understand the real strength of our scriptures. In summary, these > scriptures tell us that the Creation and Evolution both are valid in > their own way. One to create the universal laws and the other to > evolve based on them to realize the laws. This is the purpose of > life at all levels it appears. Hari OM. > > B Vempaty > > - -- > HE watches the kaledoscopic play as created by reflection of My EGO, > Physical Laws that HE Created, and My Past Karmas. > When I see the same event in others life I see the factors at play, > choices -right and wrong - they make and the randomness of, or > devine will in the outcome. When similar things happen in my life, I > see it as suffering or triumph, rather than being a witness to what > happened. > May HE lead us from darkness to light. > > HEMENDRA PARIKH > - - > All is free-will or else all is destiny.? > > " destiny in the rigid sense applies only to the outer being so long > as it lives in the Ignorance. What we call destiny is only in fact > the result of the present condition of the being and the nature and > energies it has acumulated in the past acting on each other and > determining the present attempts and their future results. But as > soon as one enters the path of spiritual life, this old > predetermined destiny begins to recede. There comes in a new factor, > The Divine Grace....the help of of a higher Divine Force other than > the force of Karma....which can lift the sadhak beyond the present > possibilties of his nature. > One's spiritual destiny is then the divine election which ensures > the future. The only doubt is about the vicissitudes of the Path > and the time to be taken by the passage. It is here that the > hostile forces playing on the weaknesses of the past nature strive > to prevent the rapidity of the progress and to postpone the > fulfillment. > > Those who fall, fall not because of the attacks of the vital forces, > but because they put themselves on the side of the hostile Force and > prefer a vital ambition of desire (ambition,vanity,lust,etc.) to the > spiritual siddhi... > > (few words complied from Sri aurobindo's letters On Yoga...) > > kuldip suri > - > , " sadhak_insight " > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > dear divine souls ! > > > > In life all sorts of things offer themselves. There is a choice of > > action and a wrong choice produces its consequences... > > > > All is free-will or else all is destiny-- it is not so simple as > > that... free will and universal determinism is the most knotty of > > all metaphysical questions and nobody has been able > > to solve it. > > > > my Questions to respected Naga naryana ji is or any one who would > > like to respond..? > > If world as we see today..chaos, sufferings, violence against > > humanity as is His Will...Then Why krishna promises > > > > " Whenever there is the decline of Dharma and uprising of > > unrighteousness, then I manifest Myself " (Gita 4:7).. > > " For the protection of the good, as for the destruction of the > evil > > doers, as for the establishment of righteousness, I manifest > Myself > > for the enthroning of the Right.I am from age to age. " (Gita > 4:8) > > > > He would simply had not Willed it in that way in the beginning > > itself? Why to create a problem in first place and then the coming > > of Avataras to esteblish righteousness on Earth ? this does not > > seem to make sense to me ? > > > > The world is manifestation of God..as we see as Cosmic > Play..but.the > > Play of Dark forces is Not His Will the Devil or the Undivine > > Forces who are Dominating today in the Universe could not have > been > > HIS WILL.. He has Sanctioned All forces to act in their own Way.. > > but Not Willed IT??? > > > > Pls clear my doubts being a child groping in the > > darkness.. > > > > Is the world we see today IS HIS WILL? > > > > my humble parnaams to ALL participating souls in this > > forum > > > > kuldip suri.. > > eternal child > > > > -------------------------------- -- > -- > > , " sadhak_insight " > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > > > Dear Sadhaks, > > > You can never distrube or even interfere GOD` s plan. > > > GOD` s PLAN IS IN UPANASHIDS AND SCRIPTS. > > > DESTINED:4 yugas are time framed. Longest Sat Yug shortest Kali > > yug. > > > Exact number of years are mentioned. > > > Nine planets syncronised for all being on earth as when, where, > to > > > whom, boy or girl or animal, plant etc based on one`s karma. > > > Humans do foresee things just few weeks/months ahead but > sometime > > > fails. God has fixed rules on one`s action based cause and > effect > > > for several births of a soul which works automatically in which > > GOD > > > remains witness. > > > > > > Where GOD interfers: Only in the case of true BHAKTHAS > (devotees). > > > Not even to yogi, sanyasi, Bhramin or anyone else one can think > > off. > > > Why only to Bhaktha (true devotee): Here a bhaktha surrenders to > > GOD > > > and remains calm. Does not even worry of future or things > around, > > > does not plan, does see GOD in all etc. IN HERE BAKTHA REMAINS > > > WITNESS. > > > Tapasvi, yogi, Sanyasi etc; They people try (make special > effort) > > > for Mukthi (salvation) by doing all sorts of penance. HERE GOD > > > REMAINS WITNESS. > > > > > > When God remains witness, you are Kartha (doer), doing all > > penance. > > > When you remain witness, God takes over the doership role - > > kartha, > > > doing everything for you to elevate you. God and His divine > energy > > > (shakti) is already in this role, but it is only ignorance that > > > makes us believe that we are doing. > > > > > > This concept is from BAGAVATHA DHARMA script told by 9 elevated > > > saints starting from Druvular, Karabaganar etc > > > > > > Sadhaks: If you can disturb GOD's plan, then you are mightier. > How > > > can anyone be greater than God? This human life span is very > very > > > short. Once the sukshuma (soul) leaves the body, time lapses and > > you > > > have no chance to do bakthi (worship and devotion). Your body > > which > > > you love so dearly, will not be kept even for 24 hours even if > you > > > choose. Time is running out ... let us surrender at His lotus > > feet > > > and live by His plans. > > > B.Sathyanarayan > > > ------------------------------ -- > -- > > > Is Life Free-Will or Destiny? > > > > > > Everything is destiny. Even the way you think, the reason you > > > breath, the incidences that you blink, the purpose you act for, > is > > > pre-destined. If you think you did something in certain way, one > > can > > > always say that that is what you were pre-destined for. Where is > > the > > > free will here? > > > > > > Everything is free will. If I do not push myself into an act > > nothing > > > will happen from my side. If anything happens related to me, my > > > presence is the reason for that. I can always change my ways to > > > adapt the way I want. I have always been doing it. Therefore, I > am > > > the reason for whatever I am. Every entity is the sole reason for > > > whatever it is. > > > > > > Basically, there are two factors for any action to occur. One is > me > > > who wants to participate in an action. The other is a set of > > > environmental factors that seem to govern my actions. One who > > > insists that oneself is the sole responsibility for anything that > > > has happened to him/her would pledge his/her life to protect > their > > > belief as the truth. One who insists that the environmental > factors > > > govern everything in ones life (they would argue that whatever > you > > > think you are wanting was also fed to you from the environment > once > > > upon a time, with a good reason) would stake their lives to > protect > > > their belief as the truth. Both are basically protecting > themselves > > > because they believe that they are their beliefs. > > > > > > One can argue that all free wills are nothing but the inertial > > > residue of the environmental stimuli on the corresponding > > > individuals. At the same time, one can counter the argument that > > > every environmental stimulus is nothing but the free will in its > > own > > > sense. One can never settle a dispute between these two > ideologies > > > because they are both correct. > > > > > > Next comes, how can two mutually exclusive opposites can be both > > > correct? Look at the above argument closely. Are they really > > > opposites? They are actually exclusively inclusive of each other > in > > > the very argument. The argument has clearly shown that destiny is > > > free will and free will is destiny. They are nothing but the same > > > sprouting as different in our perception in a singular fashion. > > Just > > > because you cannot visualize your back it does not mean it does > not > > > exist. If you turn your previous front becomes your back. The > > front, > > > the back, the known, the unknown, the free will, the destiny, … > > they > > > are all just illusions of the restless mind that I have! > > > > > > There are three variables on both sides of an action – subject > and > > > environment (objects) – known, knowable and unknowable. The > known > > is > > > what I insist to have a knowledge upon with my sensory approval. > > The > > > knowable is the one which is still within my sensory spectrum > that > > I > > > have not cared to or equipped to acknowledge. The unknowable is > the > > > one that can never be perceived within my sensory spectrum that I > > > possess or I am blessed with. > > > > > > Some acknowledge the futility of chasing an unknowable for it is > > not > > > explorable by definition and hence is not manipulatable for one's > > > benefits. Their opinion is, some thing that is of no benefit to > me > > > need not be acknowledged … after all, what is the use?! They > > > obviously have to advocate that the life is run by free will. > Such > > > people are driven by desires as all their actions and beliefs > hover > > > around their desires. Their very individual identity is the set > of > > > their desires. > > > > > > Others acknowledge the futility of praising the known for many > > > reasons (1) all the miseries are brought in through these > knowns – > > > ignorance is bliss – knowledge brings anticipation and fear; (2) > > > these knowns elude us by their continuously changing attributes; > > and > > > (3) after all, these knowns are useless because we are still > > unhappy > > > in-spite of knowing them, in-spite of how many knowns are known; > > (4) > > > No known can ever change or stop what is going to happen; (5) no > > > known can bring us whatever we want … They obviously have to > > > advocate that the life is run by destiny – the unknowns, The > > > Unknowable. Such people are driven by fears as all their actions > > and > > > beliefs hover around their fears. Their very individual identity > is > > > the set of their fears. To take shelter from their own fears they > > > start believing that some unknown force protects them. > > > > > > We often mix up a set of known factors to define what we are and > > > what our environment is and insist that the universe is that. One > > > who insists that the world is governed by ONLY KNOWNS and refuse > to > > > care about the unknowns (for a good reason, anyway they are > unknown > > > and what can I do with them?!) will tend to insist that life is > > made > > > of Free Will. > > > > > > It all depends on who I think I am. If I can define whatever I > am, > > > all such definitions depend on so many experiences I have > > > accumulated from the environment over my life. Then where is the > > > free will since the very definition of my very identity is > nothing > > > but a bunch of environmental stimuli? > > > > > > We often get carried away by the fears of uncertainties in life > and > > > declare in frustration that we are just pawns in the hands of > life. > > > One who insists that the unknowns overwhelm the knowns in all > > > respects jump to conclude that the unknowns run the show and > refuse > > > to respect the knowns. One who insists that the world is > governed > > by > > > ONLY UNKNOWNS and refuses to respect the knowns (for a good > reason, > > > what great things could I achieve with them anyway?!) will tend > to > > > insist that life is made of Destiny. > > > > > > It all depends on who I think I am. If I can define whatever I > am, > > > all such definitions depend on so many perceptions created > within > > my > > > cognition. Though they seem to have been triggered by the > > > environmental stimuli through the senses, they are received and > > > generated uniquely by the individual – no two individual can have > > > identical perception and experience in any event with identical > > > characteristics. After all, the " stimuli " are generated > internally > > > based on my personality to serve my desires. It is my desire > that > > > brings in the stimuli; it is me who interpret these stimuli to > make > > > sense out of them; and it is me who manipulate them and enjoy the > > > result. I know what I am and what I do – I am my motifs and > > > acceptances and I do what I want and what I accept. Then where is > > > the destiny dictating me what I am and what to do when the very > > > definition of my identity is my motifs and acceptances? > > > > > > " Free will and destiny are like two wheels of a cart running > > > together to make this life happen. " > > > > > > There is a danger in this … the two opposites perpetually try to > > > corrupt each other bringing themselves to momentary agreement – > > > letting one or the other win – in which both take rest and are > ever > > > ready to jump for the next conflict. Natural to our ignorant > > > tendencies, we would hang on to each on the wrong side – praise > > > oneself at success and blame some destiny at failure to attain > such > > > illusory and transitory complacence. In your perception, they are > > > distinctly different from each other – rather alien to each > other. > > > Then how can they ever cooperate to make this balance occur? > > > Obviously, at any conflict, they both claim their stakes to own > the > > > positive side of all the events since they are identified with > > their > > > positivity in the first place – one who is identified with > > > positivity can never accept any suggestion of negativity on > > oneself. > > > The ego entertains such debates so that it can jump in to take > the > > > altar of superiority to judge the two. The ego jumps to the > > judgment > > > that promotes its own positivity – tendencies. It claims itself > to > > > be the reason for what it likes; and blames the destiny for what > it > > > does not like. Either side it is clueless. It thinks it itself is > > > the free will – but when was it free and has it ever exercised > its > > > freedom?! It blames destiny – but what is it and has it ever > faced > > > it to know what destiny is?! A clever ego actually blames the > > > destiny sugarcoated with apparent praise – don't be fooled by > > that – > > > if one does not hesitate to take the credit for " good " , he/she is > > > not submitting to destiny even though he/she believes to be > > > surrendering to destiny in certain situations of desperation. > This > > > tussle between praising and blaming will strengthen its ignorance > > > further for stronger arguments in the next event. Stronger the > > > arguments, bitter the fight, more diverge the sense of likes and > > > dislikes, more intense the feelings in one's experience, more > > > vehement the debating parties are, … thicker and wider the > > ignorance > > > one is eclipsed with. > > > > > > Two wheels are not synchronized without an axle … the above > > argument > > > lacks this third element – the element of unification unifying > the > > > two opposites to one. You are right, our lives are mixtures of > both > > > polarities in different intensities and proportions. One who > seeks > > > the conflicts between the polarities (Preya) in every event is > > bound > > > to be consumed by the very conflict as explained above. However, > > one > > > who sees the unity in the apparent conflict (Shreya) in every > event > > > is bound to be with the unity, The Bliss. Preya's focus is > always > > on > > > one of the wheels constantly drifting from one to another. > Shreya's > > > focus is always on the balance of the wheels and therefore has a > > > chance to shift the focus to the axle. The Preya expands these > > > wheels – sometimes unevenly to our torture – increasing the > > > intensity of our conflicting tendencies by increasing their > > inertia. > > > Shreya shrinks these wheels evenly in a balanced way to maintain > > our > > > balance as well as to reduce our emotional intensity by reducing > > the > > > inertia of our tendencies. Preya runs the two wheels in opposite > > > directions promoting one and demoting the other ... relegating > one > > > while delegating the other. Preya instigates internal racism by > > > letting one wheel (favored by the ego) to outpace the other > letting > > > the system swirl in its self-generated whirlpool. Shreya balances > > > the wheel motion to be in equilibrium to start with, reduces > their > > > pace gradually, and reduces the wheels leading the system to > become > > > one with the axle eventually. > > > > > > At limits both theories are right … if you can stick to what you > > > say! If you stick to pure Free Will, you have no room for > > miseries – > > > after all, you are the reason for everything. If you stick to > pure > > > Destiny, you again have no room for miseries – after all you > have > > no > > > say in whatever is going on in this life; whatever happens is > > anyway > > > destined to have happened. Since the result is the same – you > > cannot > > > be miserable – both are correct. But how can you ever have > absolute > > > desire without any fear or absolute fear without any desire?! > Then > > > how can you ever be convinced with the Free Will and Destiny in > > > isolation??!! Then how can you argue for any one of them when > your > > > very argument is a mixture of the two???!!! > > > > > > No! How can both free will and destiny be correct? They are > > mutually > > > exclusive domains in a Venn Diagram! If one is TRUE, the other is > > > bound to be FALSE!! > > > > > > No! At their absolute limits, both are exclusively inclusive of > > each > > > other i.e. they are NOT DIFFERENT, they are the same. The Venn > > > Diagram is the ignorance which perpetually insists for its own > > > approval for all our perceptions to establish itself, to sustain > > > itself, and to breed itself. The ignorance keeps arguing > (believing > > > itself to be the knowledge) until it faces itself (as ignorance). > > > > > > This duality occurs due to our partial vision. The two opposites > > are > > > the illusions created in your mind. I cannot say that they are > > > created by the mind – then they should always serve for mind's > > > benefits! Most often, they serve the opposite!! They are not > > created > > > by the objects perceived as well. Why do the objects care how you > > > acknowledge them? They can never have a clue regarding the > > > impressions created in your mind! Even if they could, there is no > > > apparent benefit for them from the impressions you carry!! But > the > > > illusion persists. The mind chases this illusion in terms of > > desires > > > desperately since it looses its own cognition without that. At > the > > > same time, it is being chased by the same illusion in terms of > > > fears. It can neither outpace the illusion to satisfy its desires > > > completely. Nor can it stop to face the fears to understand them > > and > > > eradicate them. It runs away from its fears pretending that it is > > > hunting its game to feed upon eventually. Who is the game? And, > who > > > is the predator? Ignorance believes that the mind is the predator > > > and desire is the game. Knowledge knows that the mind is the > victim > > > of the illusion – the predator is the game and the game is the > > > predator. > > > > > > The mind's chase is like the chase of a donkey running > relentlessly > > > with a stiff long stick tied tight along its back with a carrot > > > dangling in the front and fire on the rear end. One can never > judge > > > whether it is running because of the fear of the fire on the > rear > > or > > > for the crave of the carrot in the front. For sure it neither > > > captures its desires, nor does it understand its fears, but > remains > > > captive between its fears and desires thanks to its ignorance on > > its > > > desires (carrot), fears (fire) as well as its tendencies (stick). > > > The donkey never appreciates the strong pact between the carrot > and > > > the fire to boost each other right under its nose. The chase > > > continues. > > > > > > It is like a mouse running inside a stagnant spinner wheel … mind > > > never knows why it is running, but it cannot help stop due to > > > inertia constantly fueled by fears and desires. When it is > tired, > > it > > > may go to sleep … but the wheel of tendencies it has built > > continues > > > to spin as time passes. Every step the mouse jumps on the wheel > > rim, > > > the wheel collects more momentum to sustain its own motion. The > > > mouse never understands that it is chasing the same thing in > terms > > > of its desires that it is running away from in terms of fears. > The > > > same desire becomes fear to show itself again and again … the > same > > > fear becomes desire to show itself again and again. The game > > > continues. > > > > > > Yadeveha tadamutra yadamutra tadanviha; > > > mrityosya mrityumapnoti ya iha naneva pashyati. > > > > > > Manasaivedamapnavyam neha nanasti kinchana; > > > mrityosya mrityum gachchati ya iha naneva pashyati. > > > > > > Respects. > > > > > > Naga Narayana. > > > > > > ------------------------------ -- > -- > > > > > > " Experiment with spiritual wisdom " or " Free Will " as expressed > in > > > two posts will not stand the test, unless we know the supreme > > wisdom > > > of the Creator. > > > > > > Naturalism " (the belief that the natural world is all there is) > > would > > > lead us to believe that human beings are nothing more than > generic > > > parts in the machine of the universe and on par with dogs, > frogs, > > > and logs. Are we special and uniquely blessed by being made in > the > > > image of God like the Bible says? > > > > > > When we ponder God's creation of humankind, we note that He > > breathed > > > life into us (Genesis 2:7) and made us " in His own image " > (Genesis > > > 1:27). Utterly unique among God's creation, we have been given a > > > tremendous gift: The capacity to know the glorious God who > created > > > us. How unique is the human race among the various galaxies that > > > comprise our universe? > > > > > > The probability of a planet anywhere in the universe fitting > > within > > > all 153 parameters [required for life] is approximately 10- 194. > The > > > maximum possible number of planets in the universe is estimated > to > > > be 1022. Thus, less than 1 chance in 10172 (100 thousand > trillion > > > trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion > > > trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion) exists that even > one > > > such planet would occur anywhere in the universe. (Dr Hugh Ross, > > PhD > > > Astrophysics, University of Toronto) > > > > > > The odds of a planet like ours existing anywhere in the > universe, > > let > > > alone containing life like ours, is infinitesimally small. > Science > > > has merely reconfirmed God's word: We are special. > > > > > > How awesome that " God demonstrates his own love for us in this: > > While > > > we were still sinners, Christ died for us. " (Romans 5:8) Even > > though > > > we are totally undeserving, God's mercy is still offered to all > > > those who are willing to repent and accept it. > > > > > > When you are feeling insignificant, or afraid, or unloved, > > remember > > > our Lord's words: " Indeed, the very hairs of your head are all > > > numbered. Don't be afraid; you are worth more than many > sparrows. " > > > (Luke 12:7) You are special, and greatly loved by God. > > > > > > Question: How has God made you utterly unique, even shaping you > > > through tough times, to be who you are today? > > > > > > yeshu rathenam > > > > > > ------------------------------ -- > -- > > - > > > , " sadhak_insight " > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > > > > > It is interesting......the mind looks for a definite > > answer....this > > > > way or that way..... > > > > Why not go within and know from experience....... > > > > > > > > experiment.....with the spiritual wisdom.....to know..... > > > > andar ki baat hai.......andar jane se pata lagagi.... > > > > > > > > Sushil Jain > > > > ---------------------------- -- > -- > > - > > > > dear pratap Bhai, > > > > > > > > my humble parnaams ... > > > > you have Rightly explained my question Does Free Will Really > > > > Exist ? There is Only Free Will and > > > > That is HIS WILL > > > > To Know or to Experience Free Will, we have to desolve our > > limited > > > > Ego into the Vast Supreme Brahman... > > > > And there we may Know What is Free Will > > > > my sincere regards.. > > > > kuldip Suri > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------- -- > -- > > -- > > > > , " sadhak_insight " > > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Dear Sadhakas, Namaste! > > > > > > > > > > Kuldipji is asking: > > > > > The real Questions is what Is real Free Will? > > > > > whether it truly Exists...? > > > > > > > > > > Real Free Will is freedom from having to have Free will! > When > > Our > > > > > choices are governed/determined by our Conditioning in terms > of > > > > > education, beliefs, culture, opinions, desires, fears, likes > > and > > > > > dislikes, how can we have real free will? Conditioning is > > always > > > > > limited due to the identification with body-mind-me sense. > > > > > Such conditioning creates an independently existing entity, > > > > > doer/enjoyer, and thus loses its real free will! > > > > > When one realizes one's true nature being Atman one will > have > > > total > > > > > Freedom. Free will is not freedom to do anything one likes! > It > > is > > > > to > > > > > do right thing at right time, considering the well being of > > all! > > > > It is > > > > > thus never predetermined because right things are never > > > absolutely > > > > > right in all circumstances at all times! This can happen: > > > > > IF one takes his/her stand as Atman, Absolute* Existence- > > > > > Consciousness-Bliss, one is/has nothing but Freedom. Such > > freedom > > > > is > > > > > emnating from Intelligence of Atman-God, so only right > actions > > > are > > > > > carried out by that person(he/she is really not a person). > > > > > One has to see that a person is a conglomerate of thoughts, > > > > beliefs, > > > > > likes/dislikes, etc., put together from childhood onward. > > Person > > > is > > > > > like a reflection in the mirror of Consciousness whose > reality > > is > > > > > Mirror! > > > > > > > > > > Reflection is mistaken as a real giving one a false sense > of > > > > being > > > > > an individual, which one is not! > > > > > > > > > > Pratap > > > > > (Pratap Bhatt) > > > > > -------------------------- -- > -- > > -- > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " sadhak_insight " > > > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear divine souls,,, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > parnaams! > > > > > > > > > > > > What ever happens, it has to happen, per Universal cause > and > > > > effect. > > > > > > Cause created in the Past, manifests in present Life, as > > > > experienced > > > > > > in present joy and pain. It is a part of a master plan. > > > > > > But everything is not predetermined ! Fate is what > happens. > > > > > > But God has bestowed His FREE WILL on us, and we have > control > > > > over > > > > > > our present actions. > > > > > > > > > > > > The real Questions is what Is real Free Will ? whether it > > truly > > > > > Exists...? > > > > > > > > > > > > Please provide your insights > > > > > > thanks > > > > > > eternal child. > > > > > > Kuldip Suri> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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