Guest guest Posted January 18, 2008 Report Share Posted January 18, 2008 Namaste all! " For the man who has conquered it;the mind becomes his greatest friend.For the one who has failed to conquer it; the mind becomes his worst enemy " (The Bhagavad Gita 6:4) What are the thoughts of the group on this verse? Hare Krishna Hari bol! Glen GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: 1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify their doubts related to Gitaji shalokas. Therefore, responses which further clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be posted. 2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to substantiate your response. 3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas 4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting sadhaka's time. 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only. 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other organizations. 7. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone number, address etc. 8. Please do not address the response to a particular individual since the message is going to the entire group. 9. Due to the large readership, all responses may not be posted. 10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if content is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the group. 11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use to Sanskrit words only, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit bracketed wherever possible. Ram Ram Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 19, 2008 Report Share Posted January 19, 2008 Dear Sadhakas, Namaste! I don't see Verse 4 in Ch 6 of B. G. translates to the meaning given by Glen in his post. However, verse 6 of Ch 6 is close to it except its not mind, but is lower self - ego - sense of me that needs to be conquered. If Ego is not conquered with the help of higher- divine Self, it acts like an enemy. When subdued by the higher Self-Atman, the same ego becomes friend! However, mind in ignorance of its true nature may be called ego. I think it is important to understand that what we call ego or sense of " me " is deep rooted belief in us that we are separate individual physically(body) and psychologically(thought). One of ways to conquer such a mind is to inquire and understand clearly that this belief is false. We don't have any valid evidence that we are such an individual. Even physically we are ONE cosmic body, like a tree with branches, roots, trunk, different flowers! It is just one tree! We cannot survive without sunlight, rains, oxygen from trees, foods from earth, human beings like mother, father, friends we call " others " . Our Oneness is disguised by seeming differences among us so we can play the divine game to celebrate the Life(Ishwara's glory)! Apparant individual is vested with Will of Totality called God who can initiate/trigger impersonal Will to accomplish anything, thus is a friend of God. As a matter of fact God(Sat-Chit-Ananda) is the only Experience behind all seemingly different experiences! Upon realizing such truth, Ego-mind becomes friend of the Higher self(which we are) and gets busy serving its Master, Atman. Before such realization, Ego-Mind thinks it is the master! Namaskar....Pratap - I am not sure which verse you are quoting. Do you mean verse 6 of chapter 6? Because verse 4 of chapter 6 is: When one is neither attached to sense-objects nor to actions and has renounced all motives that person is said to have ascended to yoga. If you mean verse 6 of chapter 6, then it refers to self of verse 5. It is quite self-explanatory. First we have to be friend to our self. Otherwise it is like living in a hell - because unlike some other enemy, this enemy is with us 24/7. The worst loneliness is not to be comfortable with one self (Mark Twain). One should elevate one self by one self (one's own efforts); one should not degrade one self; indeed self alone is the (best) friend of one self and the self-alone is one's (worst) enemy. For him who has conquered his (lower) self by the (higher) self, the self (it self) is a friend; whereas, for him whose (lower) self is not subdued (by the higher self), his very (lower) self-remains hostile, like an enemy. Tatachar - --- blueangels6168 <blueangels6168 wrote: > Namaste all! > " For the man who has conquered it;the mind becomes > his > greatest friend.For the one who has failed to > conquer it; > the mind becomes his worst enemy " > (The Bhagavad Gita 6:4) > > What are the thoughts of the group on this verse? > Hare Krishna Hari bol! > Glen > > GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: > 1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify > their doubts related to Gitaji shalokas. Therefore, > responses which further clarify the understanding of > Gitaji, will only be posted. > 2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other > scriptures to substantiate your response. > 3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs > etc. to the extent that they further help in > understanding the Gita shlokas > 4. Please be as concise and to the point as > possible, respecting sadhaka's time. > 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand > only. > 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or > other organizations. > 7. Kindly do not include your personal information > such as phone number, address etc. > 8. Please do not address the response to a > particular individual since the message is going to > the entire group. > 9. Due to the large readership, all responses may > not be posted. > 10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the > posting, if content is unclear or not appropriate > for distribution to the group. > 11. Please respond taking into consideration the > novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. > Kindly limit the use to Sanskrit words only, rather > provide the English word with Sanskrit bracketed > wherever possible. > > Ram Ram Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 20, 2008 Report Share Posted January 20, 2008 I feel ego with reality is the motivating force of an individual and in the era of karmachetra it is purpose of life Santosh Namaste All! First of all,I am ignorant to the beauty of Hinduism. A lot of things I do not understand; which is why I am reading the book, " The complete Idiots guide to hinduism " by Linda Johnsen. The verse I quoted or misquoted came from the book. Now I can either blame Linda Johnsen or blame myself. I see we are both wrong. I was hoping it would give me the truth. Luckily,I do have a pocket-sized Gita from " Gita Press,Gorankhpur,India " My little gita has Sanskit text with English translation So! I hope to feed my hunger for the truth by reading the Gita I have and of course the messages i read here in group. I am trying so hard to learn the Eternal Religion. Why? well, to me its kind of personal nearly everyday I have " Hindu Visions " I am hungry to learn all I can. Hare Krishna Hari Bol Glen Bundy --- Pratap Bhatt <pratapbhatt wrote: > Dear Sadhakas, Namaste! > I don't see Verse 4 in Ch 6 of B. G. translates to > the > meaning given by Glen in his post. However, verse 6 > of > Ch 6 is close to it except its not mind, but is > lower > self - ego - sense of me that needs to be conquered. > If Ego is not conquered with the help of higher- > divine Self, it acts like an enemy. When subdued by > the higher Self-Atman, the same ego becomes friend! > However, mind in ignorance of its true nature may be > called ego. > I think it is important to understand that what we > call ego or sense of " me " is deep rooted belief in > us > that we are separate individual physically(body) and > psychologically(thought). One of ways to conquer > such > a mind is to inquire and understand clearly that > this > belief is false. We don't have any valid evidence > that > we are such an individual. Even physically we are > ONE > cosmic body, like a tree with branches, roots, > trunk, > different flowers! It is just one tree! We cannot > survive without sunlight, rains, oxygen from trees, > foods from earth, human beings like mother, father, > friends we call " others " . > Our Oneness is disguised by seeming differences > among > us so we can play the divine game to celebrate the > Life(Ishwara's glory)! Apparant individual is vested > with Will of Totality called God who can > initiate/trigger impersonal Will to accomplish > anything, thus is a friend of God. > As a matter of fact God(Sat-Chit-Ananda) is the only > Experience behind all seemingly different > experiences! > Upon realizing such truth, Ego-mind becomes friend > of > the Higher self(which we are) and gets busy serving > its Master, Atman. Before such realization, Ego-Mind > thinks it is the master! > Namaskar....Pratap > > - > > I am not sure which verse you are quoting. > Do you mean verse 6 of chapter 6? > Because verse 4 of chapter 6 is: > > When one is neither attached to sense-objects nor to > actions > and has renounced all motives that person is said to > have ascended to > yoga. > > If you mean verse 6 of chapter 6, then it refers to > self of verse 5. It is quite self-explanatory. > First we have to be friend to our self. > Otherwise it is like living in a hell - > because unlike some other enemy, this enemy is with > us 24/7. > The worst loneliness is not to be comfortable with > one self (Mark > Twain). > > One should elevate one self by one self (one's own > efforts); > one should not degrade one self; indeed self alone > is the (best) > friend of one self and the self-alone is one's > (worst) enemy. > > For him who has conquered his (lower) self by the > (higher) self, > the self (it self) is a friend; whereas, for him > whose (lower) self > is not subdued (by the higher self), his very > (lower) self-remains > hostile, like an enemy. > > > Tatachar > > - > > --- blueangels6168 <blueangels6168 wrote: > > > Namaste all! > > " For the man who has conquered it;the mind becomes > > his > > greatest friend.For the one who has failed to > > conquer it; > > the mind becomes his worst enemy " > > (The Bhagavad Gita 6:4) > > > > What are the thoughts of the group on this verse? > > Hare Krishna Hari bol! > > Glen > > > > GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: > > 1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas > clarify > > their doubts related to Gitaji shalokas. > Therefore, > > responses which further clarify the understanding > of > > Gitaji, will only be posted. > > 2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other > > scriptures to substantiate your response. > > 3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, > beliefs > > etc. to the extent that they further help in > > understanding the Gita shlokas > > 4. Please be as concise and to the point as > > possible, respecting sadhaka's time. > > 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at > hand > > only. > > 6. Please do not include links to the other sites > or > > other organizations. > > 7. Kindly do not include your personal information > > such as phone number, address etc. > > 8. Please do not address the response to a > > particular individual since the message is going > to > > the entire group. > > 9. Due to the large readership, all responses may > > not be posted. > > 10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the > > posting, if content is unclear or not appropriate > > for distribution to the group. > > 11. Please respond taking into consideration the > > novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian > audience. > > Kindly limit the use to Sanskrit words only, > rather > > provide the English word with Sanskrit bracketed > > wherever possible. > > > > Ram Ram > ______________________________\ ____ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile./;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 21, 2008 Report Share Posted January 21, 2008 Dear Sadhakas, Namaste! I am addressing Santoshji's post on ego being motivational force of an individual. It is true ego is such a force of an individual who considers him/her a doer and enjoyer/sufferer of deeds. Ego is an Individual, not different. However, ego flies in the face of an inquiry as to what it really is, what is the stuff it is made up of. One will discover that ego is of the stuff of thoughts, beliefs, images, opinions about oneself and others. It is a feeling of separation from the Totality of our Being and thus is non-existent or an illusion we like to live with. The root of it is body/mind identification in ignorance. Thus such an individual is illusion, so also his/her motivating force and such karmas too. The purpose of life is to realize experientially our identity as Impersonal Being, Conscious Presence, Totality itself acting through the instrument of body-mind. Per Gita we are Kshetragna(ONE Knower disguised as person), and not Kshetra(known objects including body, mind and world). Benovalent Karmas are natural outcome of such realization. Namaskar.....Pratap -------- Pranam all Hari om tat sat Hindusim is an organization of “bodh” – not “prachar”. This is what we have learnt from the saints. It simply means that the internal witness, nameless formless, infinite is a state within which there is no anger or hate or greed or specifically- mind. The mind and its activity is simply limited to purusha and prakriti and its continual interaction. For the realized one, he is above this- he will not dwell on the analysis of it, but will become the meditated; for those on the path, practical application is advised. To be stuck in the marg of gyan is also not beneficial; it may make you more intelligent (intellect) but will not take you more than that as the essence/witness is infinite and cannot be known by a finite source (mind). The saints always tell us that any or all approaches are fine; so long as they drop once you merge into the unknown. Progress on the marg of yama niyama dhyan automatically reduces the questions; the path is not meant to be poetic. It is very scientific. Even after you realize the masters say; before enlightenment- chop wood- after enlightenment – chop wood. It is said that life originated a few billion years ago- incorrect- form of life originated that long ago. Life/consciousness which is the witness in us has been ever present; it is nameless formless tasteless immortal etc etc; but alive in the manner that it has different forms and those are self organizing (states of consciousness). Aum is the state- waking,dreaming,sleeping and turiya- which is the state of beyond and the goal of all life. Hence it is said hari aum tat sat. that is the truth. Even those of scientific rational mind accept that matter and waves are interchangeable; to know and experience this is form of god. To get there there are reactions or imbalances in energy (karma) that must be settled in this world itself; this is because in the state of beyond, these karma do not exist; they are of human making, in the human plane. In the gita of the many ways to sublimate (not control) the mind are listed; some are practical and some like vaid (ayurveda/rasayana) are physical. We should not encourage our mind to ask too many questions; that is a trap. If we follow the path of yo-ga, the path is made clear by the masters. The only ones we should hear are the ones who have direct experience or “atma bodh”. The rest is useless fantasy, and illusion, emotional state etc etc. Ego is a sum collection of “samskars” or mental impressions. Thoughts, actions, habits, character, destiny(karma)- it’s a straight line. We are energy- we have to clear whatever energy we have created through good karma or bad karma. Its physics in poetry. The nature of god lies in the experience of god. He is not a person,man, woman – he is bright light, effulgent and the same as the witness within you. Realize the same through sadhana; don’t seek the answers; become the answer and the questions will cease; this is what we learn from the gurus and saints of the sanatan dharma (way of truth). Hindusim is just an organization. we are all part of the sanatan dharama, devoid of caste, religion, creed. inside we are all the same. Outside we are all divided. Go beyond that. Become the answer that you seek. That is the true message of the gita. Hari om tat sat Ashish -------- It is welcome to know that God is a friend, then we are are only neighbors, and the influence is only partial, then the I becoming one with my neighbor is remote, and can never reach him. learning only partially complete knowledge is absent. need more clarity. Good will towards all, Thank you, Paul Ponniah. -------- Hare Krishna, Glen, Follow krishna words, he is showing you the way to conquer your senses , win over your feelings. Krishna beleives in " INDRAJIT " means One who conquers his or her senses, rather making their feelings die. Gaurav Nigam -------- --- Santosh Rastogi <santoshkrastogi wrote: > I feel ego with reality is the motivating force of > an individual and in the era of karmachetra it is > purpose of life > > Santosh > > > > > Namaste All! > > First of all,I am ignorant to the beauty of > Hinduism. > A lot of things I do not understand; which is why I > am reading the book, " The complete Idiots guide to > hinduism " by Linda Johnsen. > > The verse I quoted or misquoted came from the book. > Now I can either blame Linda Johnsen or blame > myself. I see we are both wrong. I was hoping it > would give me the truth. Luckily,I do have a > pocket-sized Gita from " Gita Press,Gorankhpur,India " > My little gita has Sanskit text with English > translation So! I hope to feed my hunger for the > truth by reading the Gita I have > and of course the messages i read here in group. I > am trying so hard to learn the Eternal Religion. > > Why? well, to me its kind of personal nearly > everyday I have " Hindu Visions " I am hungry to learn > all I can. > > Hare Krishna Hari Bol > Glen Bundy > > > > > > > --- Pratap Bhatt <pratapbhatt wrote: > > > Dear Sadhakas, Namaste! > > I don't see Verse 4 in Ch 6 of B. G. translates to > > the > > meaning given by Glen in his post. However, verse > 6 > > of > > Ch 6 is close to it except its not mind, but is > > lower > > self - ego - sense of me that needs to be > conquered. > > If Ego is not conquered with the help of higher- > > divine Self, it acts like an enemy. When subdued > by > > the higher Self-Atman, the same ego becomes > friend! > > However, mind in ignorance of its true nature may > be > > called ego. > > I think it is important to understand that what we > > call ego or sense of " me " is deep rooted belief in > > us > > that we are separate individual physically(body) > and > > psychologically(thought). One of ways to conquer > > such > > a mind is to inquire and understand clearly that > > this > > belief is false. We don't have any valid evidence > > that > > we are such an individual. Even physically we are > > ONE > > cosmic body, like a tree with branches, roots, > > trunk, > > different flowers! It is just one tree! We cannot > > survive without sunlight, rains, oxygen from > trees, > > foods from earth, human beings like mother, > father, > > friends we call " others " . > > Our Oneness is disguised by seeming differences > > among > > us so we can play the divine game to celebrate the > > Life(Ishwara's glory)! Apparant individual is > vested > > with Will of Totality called God who can > > initiate/trigger impersonal Will to accomplish > > anything, thus is a friend of God. > > As a matter of fact God(Sat-Chit-Ananda) is the > only > > Experience behind all seemingly different > > experiences! > > Upon realizing such truth, Ego-mind becomes friend > > of > > the Higher self(which we are) and gets busy > serving > > its Master, Atman. Before such realization, > Ego-Mind > > thinks it is the master! > > Namaskar....Pratap > > > > > - > > > > I am not sure which verse you are quoting. > > Do you mean verse 6 of chapter 6? > > Because verse 4 of chapter 6 is: > > > > When one is neither attached to sense-objects nor > to > > actions > > and has renounced all motives that person is said > to > > have ascended to > > yoga. > > > > If you mean verse 6 of chapter 6, then it refers > to > > self of verse 5. It is quite self-explanatory. > > First we have to be friend to our self. > > Otherwise it is like living in a hell - > > because unlike some other enemy, this enemy is > with > > us 24/7. > > The worst loneliness is not to be comfortable with > > one self (Mark > > Twain). > > > > One should elevate one self by one self (one's own > > efforts); > > one should not degrade one self; indeed self alone > > is the (best) > > friend of one self and the self-alone is one's > > (worst) enemy. > > > > For him who has conquered his (lower) self by the > > (higher) self, > > the self (it self) is a friend; whereas, for him > > whose (lower) self > > is not subdued (by the higher self), his very > > (lower) self-remains > > hostile, like an enemy. > > > > > > Tatachar > > > > > - > > > > --- blueangels6168 <blueangels6168 > wrote: > > > > > Namaste all! > > > " For the man who has conquered it;the mind > becomes > > > his > > > greatest friend.For the one who has failed to > > > conquer it; > > > the mind becomes his worst enemy " > > > (The Bhagavad Gita 6:4) > > > > > > What are the thoughts of the group on this > verse? > > > Hare Krishna Hari bol! > > > Glen > > > > > > GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: > > > 1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas > > clarify > > > their doubts related to Gitaji shalokas. > > Therefore, > > > responses which further clarify the > understanding > > of > > > Gitaji, will only be posted. > > > 2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or > other > > > scriptures to substantiate your response. > > > 3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, > > beliefs > > > etc. to the extent that they further help in > > > understanding the Gita shlokas > > > 4. Please be as concise and to the point as > > > possible, respecting sadhaka's time. > > > 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at > > hand > > > only. > > > 6. Please do not include links to the other > sites > > or > > > other organizations. > > > 7. Kindly do not include your personal > information > > > such as phone number, address etc. > > > 8. Please do not address the response to a > > > particular individual since the message is going > > to > > > the entire group. > > > 9. Due to the large readership, all responses > may > > > not be posted. > > > 10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the > > > posting, if content is unclear or not > appropriate > > > for distribution to the group. > > > 11. Please respond taking into consideration the > > > novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian > > audience. > > > Kindly limit the use to Sanskrit words only, > > rather > > > provide the English word with Sanskrit bracketed > > > wherever possible. > > > > > > Ram Ram Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 23, 2008 Report Share Posted January 23, 2008 Dear Sadhakas, Namaste! This is in response to Paul Ponniah's following post. " It is welcome to know that God is a friend, then we > are are only neighbors, and the influence is only > partial, then the I becoming one with my neighbor is > remote, and can never reach him. learning only > partially complete knowledge is absent. > need more clarity. > Good will towards all, > Thank you, > Paul Ponniah. " My understanding is: What is meant by God being friend is that mind has realized that Its God only that acts through mind-body of an apparant person. The mind as he/she knew before such understanding behaved as if it was the doer/controller(ego) of actions! This means it thought it existed as independent entity, not knowing it is really God-Consciousness conceptualized as mind. There is no duality like Mind and God, there is only Consciousness, our only experience in all experiences, whether we know it or not. With such understanding, mind stands as God but can be described like an instrument in the hand of God, and as such is considered a friend. The complete merger of mind with God has taken place. Just as we accomplish tasks with our tools, they are really us because they don't have separate existnce/use apart from us. Ignorant mind is enemy of a person causing suffering and realized mind(God) is a friend. THis is the meaning of God being friend! Namaskar!... Pratap Bhatt -- -------- Jai Sri Krishna ! Here is another humble attempt to shed some more light on verse 6 of Ch 6. For the one who has conquered the mind, mind is best friend; And for the one whose mind is uncontrolled, that very mind is worst enemy. Mind always seeks long lasting pleasure, happiness and for the worldly people, it is uncontrollable. So a desire arise in the mind, then the (unpurified) intellect starts planning on it. And the whole being is always running to fullfill the desires of senses and mind, with no results of long lasting peaceful happiness. Such a being waste all the life without acieving the supreme goal of human life (which is to experience the supreme spiritual bliss) and hence, mind proved to be worst enemy. For the spiritual mind, which has tasted the long lasting peaceful bliss, happiness of meditation or bhakti or self less service, the mind is greatest friend. Because having tasted that supreme bliss even once, that very mind don't aspire for any petty worldly pleasures and such a mind always try to engage that being to remember the holy name, or meditate or to experience that same bliss again and again. In such a case, conquered mind ( conquered by pure intellect - ritambhra pragya ) proved to be great friend. Om Om Om .... ! -Anil Maini --- ------- Dear loved Ones Man and buddhi distinction is necessary as a student of the bhagwat giita. Separation and reunion of Buddhi (Sita) and Man (Ram) is real education. Buddhi gets dissolved in Man, and both exist in complete but in a peculiar way. Bhagwat Gita is a training for war, and it is not hypothetical. It uses the word surrender for the truth where Sri Krishna and Arjun sees same thing. It is not surrender of Arjun to Sri Krishna. In fact, Sri krishna is 'up drashta' - looking from behind so that Arjun and Sri Krishna see in one direction and not at each other. When Sri Krishna is chariot operator, he is ahead of Arjun but again not looking at each other. This is clear understanding of one truth or surrender to truth (as called 'maam', not me but my or seen by me). Relationship of a patient and doctor is not Bhagwat Gita. A patient surrenders to doctor but there is no common goal, patient wants cure, doctor wants money. But a trainee doctor and top surgeon are like Arjun and Sri Krishna who are togethr in operating the patient (or universe) in understanding it carefully. Sri Krishna is Manh who cannot manifest, and has no experience, and Arjun has experience but no direction and knowledge. This is a combination of Man and buddhi united in search of truth. Gandhi is true follower of Bhagwat Gita and in fellowship of Krishna. Bhagwat gita is to be started at which a man is best at. For example, a thief will have to be a non violent and benevolent thief. He will serve truth but with the skill and nature given. A criminal who has knowledge of weapon can turn into protector still in use of weapon in a right direction. A teacher who has skill of communication can interpret ideas more clearly so that students feel involved and not taxed. These are test of truth that sum up manh and buddhi. Tyaag or renunciation is not about leaving but integrating so that all need of leaving disappears. None else can teach it better than Sri Krishna himself. Sri Krishna is the only official 'thief'. He is called chitt chor, mano har, that means, He is taking away secretly all records of memory, and taking away all desires as a thief so that we do not even know. He is not falling prey to any conflicts and therefore called Ran Chod or that who is uninterested in arguments and conflicts. How polite and kind this thief is. This attraction never ends and is called Krishna (pulling force). This peculiarly defined action is a part of the great quality of Sri Krishna that leaves all of us crying after Him and praying to HARE KRISHNA HARE KRISHNA - stolen by Krishna, stolen by Krishna, stolen by Krishna, stolen by Krishna, stolen by Krishna, stolen by Krishna. He is loved one. Love is undivided nature, and as a teacher and benevolent teacher or father or mother or friend, where none need fear or respect or feel shy of asking questions and maintain any separation of you and me. He does not stop at just the chitt (picture, drawing, record of memory) and manh (svabhav, desire, commttment) but also what we do and eat and feel every time and every moment. Sri Krishna is thus called Govind, or Dhama Gopta. Gupta is a word from it used by trader community in India. This also has a nasty meaning. Govind means, taking 'ras' secretly by indriyas. Sri Krishna secretly gets a taste from the power and energy and fluid thought flowing. This way is Govind. Gopta is similarly hidden action of Sri Krishna. Can any one ever find such a thief of chitt (record of memory), desire (swabhav)? I am one looking for Him for a long time, this great thief of mine. I am calling Hare Krishna (stolen by Krishna, stolen by Krishna, stolen by Krishna); but He (truth) is hiding ever since sriti started. I am buddhi and manah is Krishna. Both are together but still playing hide and seek. regards Krishna Gopal --- ------- , Pratap Bhatt <pratapbhatt wrote: > > Dear Sadhakas, Namaste! > I am addressing Santoshji's post on ego being > motivational force of an individual. It is true ego is > such a force of an individual who considers him/her a > doer and enjoyer/sufferer of deeds. Ego is an > Individual, not different. However, ego flies in the > face of an inquiry as to what it really is, what is > the stuff it is made up of. One will discover that ego > is of the stuff of thoughts, beliefs, images, opinions > about oneself and others. It is a feeling of > separation from the Totality of our Being and thus is > non-existent or an illusion we like to live with. The > root of it is body/mind identification in ignorance. > Thus such an individual is illusion, so also his/her > motivating force and such karmas too. > The purpose of life is to realize experientially our > identity as Impersonal Being, Conscious Presence, > Totality itself acting through the instrument of > body-mind. Per Gita we are Kshetragna(ONE Knower > disguised as person), and not Kshetra(known objects > including body, mind and world). Benovalent Karmas are > natural outcome of such realization. > Namaskar.....Pratap > > - ------- > Pranam all > > Hari om tat sat > > Hindusim is an organization of " bodh " – not " prachar " . This is what we have learnt from the saints. It simply means that the internal witness, nameless formless, infinite is a state within which there is no anger or hate or greed or specifically- mind. The mind and its activity is simply limited to purusha and prakriti and its continual interaction. For the realized one, he is above this- he will not dwell on the analysis of it, but will become the meditated; for those on the path, practical application is advised. To be stuck in the marg of gyan is also not beneficial; it may make you more intelligent (intellect) but will not take you more than that as the essence/witness is infinite and cannot be known by a finite source (mind). The saints always tell us that any or all approaches are fine; so long as they drop once you merge into the unknown. Progress on the marg of yama niyama dhyan automatically reduces the questions; the path is not meant to be poetic. It is very scientific. Even after you realize the masters say; before enlightenment- chop wood- after enlightenment – chop wood. It is said that life originated a few billion years ago- incorrect- form of life originated that long ago. Life/consciousness which is the witness in us has been ever present; it is nameless formless tasteless immortal etc etc; but alive in the manner that it has different forms and those are self organizing (states of consciousness). Aum is the state- waking,dreaming,sleeping and turiya- which is the state of beyond and the goal of all life. Hence it is said hari aum tat sat. that is the truth. Even those of scientific rational mind accept that matter and waves are interchangeable; to know and experience this is form of god. To get there there are reactions or imbalances in energy (karma) that must be settled in this world itself; this is because in the state of beyond, these karma do not exist; they are of human making, in the human plane. > > In the gita of the many ways to sublimate (not control) the mind are listed; some are practical and some like vaid (ayurveda/rasayana) are physical. We should not encourage our mind to ask too many questions; that is a trap. If we follow the path of yo-ga, the path is made clear by the masters. The only ones we should hear are the ones who have direct experience or " atma bodh " . The rest is useless fantasy, and illusion, emotional state etc etc. > > Ego is a sum collection of " samskars " or mental impressions. Thoughts, actions, habits, character, destiny(karma)- it's a straight line. We are energy- we have to clear whatever energy we have created through good karma or bad karma. Its physics in poetry. > > The nature of god lies in the experience of god. He is not a person,man, woman – he is bright light, effulgent and the same as the witness within you. Realize the same through sadhana; don't seek the answers; become the answer and the questions will cease; this is what we learn from the gurus and saints of the sanatan dharma (way of truth). > > > Hindusim is just an organization. we are all part of the sanatan dharama, devoid of caste, religion, creed. inside we are all the same. Outside we are all divided. Go beyond that. Become the answer that you seek. That is the true message of the gita. > > Hari om tat sat > > Ashish > > - ------- > It is welcome to know that God is a friend, then we > are are only neighbors, and the influence is only > partial, then the I becoming one with my neighbor is > remote, and can never reach him. learning only > partially complete knowledge is absent. > need more clarity. > Good will towards all, > Thank you, > Paul Ponniah. > > - ------- > Hare Krishna, > > Glen, Follow krishna words, he is showing you the way to conquer your senses , win over your feelings. Krishna beleives in " INDRAJIT " means One who conquers his or her senses, rather making their feelings die. > Gaurav Nigam > > - ------- > --- Santosh Rastogi <santoshkrastogi wrote: > > > I feel ego with reality is the motivating force of > > an individual and in the era of karmachetra it is > > purpose of life > > > > Santosh > > > > > - ----------- > > > > > > Namaste All! > > > > First of all,I am ignorant to the beauty of > > Hinduism. > > A lot of things I do not understand; which is why I > > am reading the book, " The complete Idiots guide to > > hinduism " by Linda Johnsen. > > > > The verse I quoted or misquoted came from the book. > > Now I can either blame Linda Johnsen or blame > > myself. I see we are both wrong. I was hoping it > > would give me the truth. Luckily,I do have a > > pocket-sized Gita from " Gita Press,Gorankhpur,India " > > My little gita has Sanskit text with English > > translation So! I hope to feed my hunger for the > > truth by reading the Gita I have > > and of course the messages i read here in group. I > > am trying so hard to learn the Eternal Religion. > > > > Why? well, to me its kind of personal nearly > > everyday I have " Hindu Visions " I am hungry to learn > > all I can. > > > > Hare Krishna Hari Bol > > Glen Bundy > > > > > - ----------- > > > > > > > > > > --- Pratap Bhatt <pratapbhatt wrote: > > > > > Dear Sadhakas, Namaste! > > > I don't see Verse 4 in Ch 6 of B. G. translates to > > > the > > > meaning given by Glen in his post. However, verse > > 6 > > > of > > > Ch 6 is close to it except its not mind, but is > > > lower > > > self - ego - sense of me that needs to be > > conquered. > > > If Ego is not conquered with the help of higher- > > > divine Self, it acts like an enemy. When subdued > > by > > > the higher Self-Atman, the same ego becomes > > friend! > > > However, mind in ignorance of its true nature may > > be > > > called ego. > > > I think it is important to understand that what we > > > call ego or sense of " me " is deep rooted belief in > > > us > > > that we are separate individual physically(body) > > and > > > psychologically(thought). One of ways to conquer > > > such > > > a mind is to inquire and understand clearly that > > > this > > > belief is false. We don't have any valid evidence > > > that > > > we are such an individual. Even physically we are > > > ONE > > > cosmic body, like a tree with branches, roots, > > > trunk, > > > different flowers! It is just one tree! We cannot > > > survive without sunlight, rains, oxygen from > > trees, > > > foods from earth, human beings like mother, > > father, > > > friends we call " others " . > > > Our Oneness is disguised by seeming differences > > > among > > > us so we can play the divine game to celebrate the > > > Life(Ishwara's glory)! Apparant individual is > > vested > > > with Will of Totality called God who can > > > initiate/trigger impersonal Will to accomplish > > > anything, thus is a friend of God. > > > As a matter of fact God(Sat-Chit-Ananda) is the > > only > > > Experience behind all seemingly different > > > experiences! > > > Upon realizing such truth, Ego-mind becomes friend > > > of > > > the Higher self(which we are) and gets busy > > serving > > > its Master, Atman. Before such realization, > > Ego-Mind > > > thinks it is the master! > > > Namaskar....Pratap > > > > > > > > > - ------------ > > > > > > I am not sure which verse you are quoting. > > > Do you mean verse 6 of chapter 6? > > > Because verse 4 of chapter 6 is: > > > > > > When one is neither attached to sense-objects nor > > to > > > actions > > > and has renounced all motives that person is said > > to > > > have ascended to > > > yoga. > > > > > > If you mean verse 6 of chapter 6, then it refers > > to > > > self of verse 5. It is quite self-explanatory. > > > First we have to be friend to our self. > > > Otherwise it is like living in a hell - > > > because unlike some other enemy, this enemy is > > with > > > us 24/7. > > > The worst loneliness is not to be comfortable with > > > one self (Mark > > > Twain). > > > > > > One should elevate one self by one self (one's own > > > efforts); > > > one should not degrade one self; indeed self alone > > > is the (best) > > > friend of one self and the self-alone is one's > > > (worst) enemy. > > > > > > For him who has conquered his (lower) self by the > > > (higher) self, > > > the self (it self) is a friend; whereas, for him > > > whose (lower) self > > > is not subdued (by the higher self), his very > > > (lower) self-remains > > > hostile, like an enemy. > > > > > > > > > Tatachar > > > > > > > > > - ------------ > > > > > > --- blueangels6168 <blueangels6168 > > wrote: > > > > > > > Namaste all! > > > > " For the man who has conquered it;the mind > > becomes > > > > his > > > > greatest friend.For the one who has failed to > > > > conquer it; > > > > the mind becomes his worst enemy " > > > > (The Bhagavad Gita 6:4) > > > > > > > > What are the thoughts of the group on this > > verse? > > > > Hare Krishna Hari bol! > > > > Glen > > > > > > > > GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: > > > > 1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas > > > clarify > > > > their doubts related to Gitaji shalokas. > > > Therefore, > > > > responses which further clarify the > > understanding > > > of > > > > Gitaji, will only be posted. > > > > 2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or > > other > > > > scriptures to substantiate your response. > > > > 3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, > > > beliefs > > > > etc. to the extent that they further help in > > > > understanding the Gita shlokas > > > > 4. Please be as concise and to the point as > > > > possible, respecting sadhaka's time. > > > > 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at > > > hand > > > > only. > > > > 6. Please do not include links to the other > > sites > > > or > > > > other organizations. > > > > 7. Kindly do not include your personal > > information > > > > such as phone number, address etc. > > > > 8. Please do not address the response to a > > > > particular individual since the message is going > > > to > > > > the entire group. > > > > 9. Due to the large readership, all responses > > may > > > > not be posted. > > > > 10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the > > > > posting, if content is unclear or not > > appropriate > > > > for distribution to the group. > > > > 11. Please respond taking into consideration the > > > > novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian > > > audience. > > > > Kindly limit the use to Sanskrit words only, > > > rather > > > > provide the English word with Sanskrit bracketed > > > > wherever possible. > > > > > > > > Ram Ram > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 26, 2008 Report Share Posted January 26, 2008 Trying to conquer the mind is like running after something that one cannot catch. Just remain witness to the mind let loose. Do not perform actions that are not good to your intellect. Mind will become stable once desires are deleted one by one. B.Sathyanarayan I understand that the body mind mechanism is that of Sita and Rama.This is a psycho-somatic explanation, and differs from man and the Friend, God the supreme, The absolute and unique. Next the explanation of the worker and his tool, the tool can never become the worker but only an instrument of use to an end. They differ in purpose and power, so the relationship of man and the Friend God. So the logic continues. With honor to all, Paul Ponniah. -- Dear Sadhakji Don't confuse modern psychological terms with outdated, primitive and mythological Gita. Mr Pratap says in his message that by having Krishna ‘consciousness,’ one can conquer the mind. Freud, the famous psycho-analyst, projected the dimensions of mind. All at once Gita fanatics began to claim that Gita also deals with mind. They started their own ridiculous interpretation of mind-body interaction, quantimn physics etc., At the outset, it is to be emphasized that a myth is a legend. It is of a symbolic character, expressing primitive beliefs and theories concerning the nature of phenomena, and especially their supernatural origins. As we have seen in other religions in some Asian countries, there may be physical healing, miracles and supernatural experiences. It is all because of the fact evil spirits also have supernatural powers. But these powers are evanescent, temporary and short-lived. Krishna consciousness, claiming 'conquering the mind' comes under this category. Yeshu Rathenam --------- sadhak_insight <sadhak_insight wrote: Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!This is in response to Paul Ponniah's following post."It is welcome to know that God is a friend, then we> are are only neighbors, and the influence is only> partial, then the I becoming one with my neighbor is> remote, and can never reach him. learning only> partially complete knowledge is absent.> need more clarity.> Good will towards all,> Thank you,> Paul Ponniah."My understanding is: What is meant by God being friend is that mind has realized that Its God only that acts through mind-body of an apparant person. The mind as he/she knew before such understanding behaved as if it was the doer/controller(ego) of actions! Thismeans it thought it existed as independent entity, not knowing it is really God-Consciousness conceptualized as mind. There is no duality like Mind and God, there is only Consciousness, our only experience in all experiences, whether we know it or not. With such understanding, mind stands as God but can be described like an instrument in the hand of God, and as such is considered a friend. The complete merger of mind with God has taken place. Just as we accomplish tasks with our tools, they are really us because they don't have separate existnce/use apart from us. Ignorant mind isenemy of a person causing suffering and realized mind(God) is a friend. THis is the meaning of God being friend!Namaskar!... Pratap Bhatt Jai Sri Krishna ! Here is another humble attempt to shed some more light on verse 6 of Ch 6. For the one who has conquered the mind, mind is best friend; And for the one whose mind is uncontrolled, that very mind is worst enemy. Mind always seeks long lasting pleasure, happiness and for the worldly people, it is uncontrollable. So a desire arise in the mind, then the (unpurified) intellect starts planning on it. And the whole being is always running to fullfill the desires of senses and mind, with no results of long lasting peaceful happiness. Such a being waste all the life without acieving the supreme goal of human life (which is to experience the supreme spiritual bliss) and hence, mind proved to be worst enemy. For the spiritual mind, which has tasted the long lasting peaceful bliss, happiness of meditation or bhakti or self less service, the mind is greatest friend. Because having tasted that supreme bliss even once, that very mind don't aspire for any petty worldly pleasures and such a mind always try to engage that being to remember the holy name, or meditate or to experience that same bliss again and again. In such a case, conquered mind ( conquered by pure intellect - ritambhra pragya ) proved to be great friend. Om Om Om .... ! -Anil Maini--------------------------------Dear loved OnesMan and buddhi distinction is necessary as a student of the bhagwat giita. Separation and reunion of Buddhi (Sita) and Man (Ram) is real education. Buddhi gets dissolved in Man, and both exist in complete but in a peculiar way. Bhagwat Gita is a training for war, and it is not hypothetical. It uses the word surrender for the truth where Sri Krishna and Arjun sees same thing. It is not surrender of Arjun to Sri Krishna. In fact, Sri krishna is 'up drashta' - looking from behind so that Arjun and Sri Krishna see in one direction and not at each other. When Sri Krishna is chariot operator, he is ahead of Arjun but again not looking at each other. This is clear understanding of one truth or surrender to truth (as called 'maam', not me but my or seen by me). Relationship of a patient and doctor is not Bhagwat Gita. A patient surrenders to doctor but there is no common goal, patient wants cure, doctor wants money. But a trainee doctor and top surgeon are like Arjun and Sri Krishna who are togethr in operating the patient (or universe) in understanding it carefully. Sri Krishna is Manh who cannot manifest, and has no experience, and Arjun has experience but no direction and knowledge. This is a combination of Man and buddhi united in search of truth. Gandhi is true follower of Bhagwat Gita and in fellowship of Krishna. Bhagwat gita is to be started at which a man is best at. For example, a thief will have to be a non violent and benevolent thief. He will serve truth but with the skill and nature given. A criminal who has knowledge of weapon can turn into protector still in use of weapon in a right direction. A teacher who has skill of communication can interpret ideas more clearly so that students feel involved and not taxed. These are test of truth that sum up manh and buddhi. Tyaag or renunciation is not about leaving but integrating so that all need of leaving disappears. None else can teach it better than Sri Krishna himself. Sri Krishna is the only official 'thief'. He is called chitt chor, mano har, that means, He is taking away secretly all records of memory, and taking away all desires as a thief so that we do not even know. He is not falling prey to any conflicts and therefore called Ran Chod or that who is uninterested in arguments and conflicts. How polite and kind this thief is. This attraction never ends and is called Krishna (pulling force). This peculiarly defined action is a part of the great quality of Sri Krishna that leaves all of us crying after Him and praying to HARE KRISHNA HARE KRISHNA - stolen by Krishna, stolen by Krishna, stolen by Krishna, stolen by Krishna, stolen by Krishna, stolen by Krishna. He is loved one. Love is undivided nature, and as a teacher and benevolent teacher or father or mother or friend, where none need fear or respect or feel shy of asking questions and maintain any separation of you and me. He does not stop at just the chitt (picture, drawing, record of memory) and manh (svabhav, desire, commttment) but also what we do and eat and feel every time and every moment. Sri Krishna is thus called Govind, or Dhama Gopta. Gupta is a word from it used by trader community in India. This also has a nasty meaning. Govind means, taking 'ras' secretly by indriyas. Sri Krishna secretly gets a taste from the power and energy and fluid thought flowing. This way is Govind. Gopta is similarly hidden action of Sri Krishna. Can any one ever find such a thief of chitt (record of memory), desire (swabhav)? I am one looking for Him for a long time, this great thief of mine. I am calling Hare Krishna (stolen by Krishna, stolen by Krishna, stolen by Krishna); but He (truth) is hiding ever since sriti started. I am buddhi and manah is Krishna. Both are together but still playing hide and seek. regardsKrishna Gopal-- In , Pratap Bhatt <pratapbhatt wrote:>> Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!> I am addressing Santoshji's post on ego being> motivational force of an individual. It is true ego is> such a force of an individual who considers him/her a> doer and enjoyer/sufferer of deeds. Ego is an> Individual, not different. However, ego flies in the> face of an inquiry as to what it really is, what is> the stuff it is made up of. One will discover that ego> is of the stuff of thoughts, beliefs, images, opinions> about oneself and others. It is a feeling of> separation from the Totality of our Being and thus is> non-existent or an illusion we like to live with. The> root of it is body/mind identification in ignorance.> Thus such an individual is illusion, so also his/her> motivating force and such karmas too. > The purpose of life is to realize experientially our> identity as Impersonal Being, Conscious Presence,> Totality itself acting through the instrument of> body-mind. Per Gita we are Kshetragna(ONE Knower> disguised as person), and not Kshetra(known objects> including body, mind and world). Benovalent Karmas are> natural outcome of such realization.> Namaskar.....Pratap> > --------------------------------> Pranam all> > Hari om tat sat > > Hindusim is an organization of "bodh" – not "prachar". This is what we have learnt from the saints. It simply means that the internal witness, nameless formless, infinite is a state within which there is no anger or hate or greed or specifically- mind. The mind and its activity is simply limited to purusha and prakriti and its continual interaction. For the realized one, he is above this- he will not dwell on the analysis of it, but will become the meditated; for those on the path, practical application is advised. To be stuck in the marg of gyan is also not beneficial; it may make you more intelligent (intellect) but will not take you more than that as the essence/witness is infinite and cannot be known by a finite source (mind). The saints always tell us that any or all approaches are fine; so long as they drop once you merge into the unknown. Progress on the marg of yama niyama dhyan automatically reduces the questions; the path is not meant to be poetic. It is very scientific. Even after you realize the masters say; before enlightenment- chop wood- after enlightenment – chop wood. It is said that life originated a few billion years ago- incorrect- form of life originated that long ago. Life/consciousness which is the witness in us has been ever present; it is nameless formless tasteless immortal etc etc; but alive in the manner that it has different forms and those are self organizing (states of consciousness). Aum is the state- waking,dreaming,sleeping and turiya- which is the state of beyond and the goal of all life. Hence it is said hari aum tat sat. that is the truth. Even those of scientific rational mind accept that matter and waves are interchangeable; to know and experience this is form of god. To get there there are reactions or imbalances in energy (karma) that must be settled in this world itself; this is because in the state of beyond, these karma do not exist; they are of human making, in the human plane. > > In the gita of the many ways to sublimate (not control) the mind are listed; some are practical and some like vaid (ayurveda/rasayana) are physical. We should not encourage our mind to ask too many questions; that is a trap. If we follow the path of yo-ga, the path is made clear by the masters. The only ones we should hear are the ones who have direct experience or "atma bodh". The rest is useless fantasy, and illusion, emotional state etc etc.> > Ego is a sum collection of "samskars" or mental impressions. Thoughts, actions, habits, character, destiny(karma)- it's a straight line. We are energy- we have to clear whatever energy we have created through good karma or bad karma. Its physics in poetry.> > The nature of god lies in the experience of god. He is not a person,man, woman – he is bright light, effulgent and the same as the witness within you. Realize the same through sadhana; don't seek the answers; become the answer and the questions will cease; this is what we learn from the gurus and saints of the sanatan dharma (way of truth). > > > Hindusim is just an organization. we are all part of the sanatan dharama, devoid of caste, religion, creed. inside we are all the same. Outside we are all divided. Go beyond that. Become the answer that you seek. That is the true message of the gita. > > Hari om tat sat> > Ashish> > --------------------------------> It is welcome to know that God is a friend, then we> are are only neighbors, and the influence is only> partial, then the I becoming one with my neighbor is> remote, and can never reach him. learning only> partially complete knowledge is absent.> need more clarity.> Good will towards all,> Thank you,> Paul Ponniah.> > --------------------------------> Hare Krishna,> > Glen, Follow krishna words, he is showing you the way to conquer your senses , win over your feelings. Krishna beleives in "INDRAJIT" means One who conquers his or her senses, rather making their feelings die.> Gaurav Nigam> > --------------------------------> --- Santosh Rastogi <santoshkrastogi wrote:> > > I feel ego with reality is the motivating force of> > an individual and in the era of karmachetra it is> > purpose of life> > > > Santosh> > > >> ---> > > > > > Namaste All!> > > > First of all,I am ignorant to the beauty of> > Hinduism.> > A lot of things I do not understand; which is why I> > am reading the book, "The complete Idiots guide to> > hinduism" by Linda Johnsen.> > > > The verse I quoted or misquoted came from the book.> > Now I can either blame Linda Johnsen or blame> > myself. I see we are both wrong. I was hoping it> > would give me the truth. Luckily,I do have a> > pocket-sized Gita from "Gita Press,Gorankhpur,India"> > My little gita has Sanskit text with English> > translation So! I hope to feed my hunger for the> > truth by reading the Gita I have> > and of course the messages i read here in group. I> > am trying so hard to learn the Eternal Religion.> > > > Why? well, to me its kind of personal nearly> > everyday I have "Hindu Visions" I am hungry to learn> > all I can.> > > > Hare Krishna Hari Bol> > Glen Bundy> > > >> ---> > > > > > > > > > --- Pratap Bhatt <pratapbhatt wrote:> > > > > Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!> > > I don't see Verse 4 in Ch 6 of B. G. translates to> > > the> > > meaning given by Glen in his post. However, verse> > 6> > > of> > > Ch 6 is close to it except its not mind, but is> > > lower> > > self - ego - sense of me that needs to be> > conquered.> > > If Ego is not conquered with the help of higher-> > > divine Self, it acts like an enemy. When subdued> > by> > > the higher Self-Atman, the same ego becomes> > friend!> > > However, mind in ignorance of its true nature may> > be> > > called ego. > > > I think it is important to understand that what we> > > call ego or sense of "me" is deep rooted belief in> > > us> > > that we are separate individual physically(body)> > and> > > psychologically(thought). One of ways to conquer> > > such> > > a mind is to inquire and understand clearly that> > > this> > > belief is false. We don't have any valid evidence> > > that> > > we are such an individual. Even physically we are> > > ONE> > > cosmic body, like a tree with branches, roots,> > > trunk,> > > different flowers! It is just one tree! We cannot> > > survive without sunlight, rains, oxygen from> > trees,> > > foods from earth, human beings like mother,> > father,> > > friends we call "others".> > > Our Oneness is disguised by seeming differences> > > among> > > us so we can play the divine game to celebrate the> > > Life(Ishwara's glory)! Apparant individual is> > vested> > > with Will of Totality called God who can> > > initiate/trigger impersonal Will to accomplish> > > anything, thus is a friend of God.> > > As a matter of fact God(Sat-Chit-Ananda) is the> > only> > > Experience behind all seemingly different> > > experiences!> > > Upon realizing such truth, Ego-mind becomes friend> > > of> > > the Higher self(which we are) and gets busy> > serving> > > its Master, Atman. Before such realization,> > Ego-Mind> > > thinks it is the master!> > > Namaskar....Pratap> > > > > >> >> ----> > > > > > I am not sure which verse you are quoting.> > > Do you mean verse 6 of chapter 6?> > > Because verse 4 of chapter 6 is:> > > > > > When one is neither attached to sense-objects nor> > to> > > actions> > > and has renounced all motives that person is said> > to> > > have ascended to> > > yoga.> > > > > > If you mean verse 6 of chapter 6, then it refers> > to> > > self of verse 5. It is quite self-explanatory.> > > First we have to be friend to our self.> > > Otherwise it is like living in a hell - > > > because unlike some other enemy, this enemy is> > with> > > us 24/7.> > > The worst loneliness is not to be comfortable with> > > one self (Mark> > > Twain).> > > > > > One should elevate one self by one self (one's own> > > efforts);> > > one should not degrade one self; indeed self alone> > > is the (best)> > > friend of one self and the self-alone is one's> > > (worst) enemy.> > > > > > For him who has conquered his (lower) self by the> > > (higher) self,> > > the self (it self) is a friend; whereas, for him> > > whose (lower) self> > > is not subdued (by the higher self), his very> > > (lower) self-remains> > > hostile, like an enemy.> > > > > > > > > Tatachar> > > > > >> >> ----> > > > > > --- blueangels6168 <blueangels6168> > wrote:> > > > > > > Namaste all!> > > > "For the man who has conquered it;the mind> > becomes> > > > his> > > > greatest friend.For the one who has failed to> > > > conquer it;> > > > the mind becomes his worst enemy"> > > > (The Bhagavad Gita 6:4)> > > > > > > > What are the thoughts of the group on this> > verse?> > > > Hare Krishna Hari bol!> > > > Glen> > > > > > > > GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES:> > > > 1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas> > > clarify> > > > their doubts related to Gitaji shalokas.> > > Therefore,> > > > responses which further clarify the> > understanding> > > of> > > > Gitaji, will only be posted.> > > > 2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or> > other> > > > scriptures to substantiate your response.> > > > 3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions,> > > beliefs> > > > etc. to the extent that they further help in> > > > understanding the Gita shlokas> > > > 4. Please be as concise and to the point as> > > > possible, respecting sadhaka's time.> > > > 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at> > > hand> > > > only.> > > > 6. Please do not include links to the other> > sites> > > or> > > > other organizations.> > > > 7. Kindly do not include your personal> > information> > > > such as phone number, address etc.> > > > 8. Please do not address the response to a> > > > particular individual since the message is going> > > to> > > > the entire group.> > > > 9. Due to the large readership, all responses> > may> > > > not be posted.> > > > 10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the> > > > posting, if content is unclear or not> > appropriate> > > > for distribution to the group.> > > > 11. Please respond taking into consideration the> > > > novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian> > > audience.> > > > Kindly limit the use to Sanskrit words only,> > > rather> > > > provide the English word with Sanskrit bracketed> > > > wherever possible.> > > > > > > > Ram Ram> Why delete messages? Unlimited storage is just a click away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 27, 2008 Report Share Posted January 27, 2008 I am not sure how the post by Yeshu Rathenam came into circulation because I only received it inside someone's else's post . In any event I find it difficult to ignore the confused and misinformed posting comparing what Yeshu Rathenam describes as " outdated, primitive and mythological Gita " to what he refers to as " modern " and " psychological " Freud representing the valid and universal truth. If we are serious about what we write and say in this group then it is important to explain the significance of the Bhagvad Gita in our times. Regardless whether it is the Bhagvad Gita or any other mythological epic of the Hindus, or the Vedanta in general - not only have all of these *thrived* and endured in their original form over the last 5000 years or more of kings, dynasties, invaders, civilizations, cultural transformations and science, but that these epic scriptures happen to actually be part of that body of knowledge which is *eternally* valid, and not just a mythological *story* for the entertainment of children or something supernatural and evil or dark. I generally would not name Freud and the Bhagvad Gita or Krishna consciousness in the same breath. Because Freud is like the light from a matchstick and the light that comes from the Bhagvad Gita (in particular and the Vedanta in general) is like the light that comes from the sun. I do not say this simply as an argument, I actually mean it. The Bhagvad Gita represents and describes an absolute truth which is universally applicable regardless of what one's belief system or religion is. The Bhagvad Gita is close to the heart of Hindus, but its light belongs to the world. There are western scholars, scientists and philosophers who have described the Bhagvad Gita as an exalted philosophical work whose wisdom lights the way in our lives. To give an example Albert Einstein said, " When I read the Bhagavad-Gita and reflect about how God created this universe everything else seems so superfluous " . And to give another example, Dr. Robert Oppenheimer, the scientist who created the atom bomb also derived sustenance from the wisdom of the Bhagvad Gita. If you wish to read about what the Bhagvad Gita read Dr. Oppenheimer's works. For the sake of convenience I have provided a short excerpt. The original reference is 45 pages of text on the subject of what the Bhagvad Gita meant to Dr. Oppenheimer. Please note that not only did Dr. Oppenheimer read the Bhagavad Gita in the original Sanskrit but also translated it into English. In any event I would like Yeshu Rathenam to please think about responses and remarks before making them. Because he has let his utter ignorance of any facts show because Freud died in 1939 and in the past six decades nearly 70% to 80% of Freud's ideas are no longer accepted as valid in psychology. So the authority that Yeshu Rathenam says Freud has in the so-called " modern " age has been rejected in less than 70 years. And the Bhagvad Gita for thousands of years continues to be the eternal fountain of spirituality providing sustenance and guidance towards the highest truths, and answers questions asked by all people who have some degree of awareness. It does not matter what religion Yeshu Rathenam belongs to because it is clear he knows as little about his own beliefs as he knows about the beliefs of others or any philosophical wisdom. He simply likes to hear his own voice or see his own words. Here is the quote from the article: " Oppenheimer acquired a deeper knowledge of the Bhagavad-Gita in 1933 when, as a young professor of physics with interests ranging far beyond his academic specialty, he studied Sanskrit with Professor Arthur W. Ryder at Berkeley. The Gita, Oppenheimer excitedly wrote to his brother, was " very easy and quite marvelous. " 40 This is the earliest direct evidence of the impression the book made on Oppenheimer, and a lasting impression it was. Later he called the Gita " the most beautiful philosophical song existing in any known tongue. " He kept a well-worn copy of it conveniently on hand on the bookshelf closest to his desk and often gave the book (in translation) to friends as a present. He continued to browse in it while directing the bomb laboratory. After President Franklin Roosevelt's death in April 1945, Oppenheimer spoke at a memorial service at Los Alamos and quoted a passage from the Gita. Clearly this ancient book was on his mind as the atomic bomb neared completion, even before he saw the dazzling fireball from the Trinity test. In later years, too, he would look back on the Gita as one of the most important influences in his life. In 1963, Christian Century magazine asked him to list the ten books that " did most to shape your vocational attitude and your philosophy of life. " Along with Shakespeare's Hamlet and Eliot's Waste Land, Oppenheimer listed the Gita. The Bhagavad-Gita, whose title can be translated as the " Song of the Lord, " 44 is a masterpiece and monument of Hinduism. One expert calls it " the most important single text for 'Hindu' religion, " ..... " Thank you, Biraj Khosla Dear Yeshu Rathenam I have to specifically reply to you and endorse you in 100% that say Bhagwat Gita is 'out dated' and 'primitive' and 'mythological'. In fact Sri Krishna himself says it ANAADI (not have begining, not included in time-space) devah, purushah PURAANAH (primitive, oldest, at begining of universe). Regarding 'mythological' I can only say that this survived to this day from thousands of years travelling in minds and hearts of people, not without becomong mythology. It is unlike the schools of paid education in so called modern sciences that never reaches all. No science is yet so perfect to take unchanging status of belief, and becoming mythlogy. Test of truth is never empirical and anything empirical cannot be truth. Empiricism is a perspective and it gets into relativity of observation from differing point of view. How do an idiot understand difference between truth and perspectives is the following. If the goal is low and reachable by two people, both see it differently and go to fight. But if the goal is high that none of them can see own ways, then both will see it one direction and only one perspective exists which is sum of both. This summing of perspective is called truth, and which is not source of conflict but unity of purpose. Truth is not justiciable, or not an optical exactness of observation or test of personal integrity but summing of perspectives, and unity of purpose or telescopic view of goal of all. It is a boy in hand of his grandfather together seeing aircraft flying in sky. If aircraft is grounded the perspectives will differ and boy will get separated from grand father, and not agree to one thing. Truth has no conflict in observers and it is end of Eisteins' research of the relativity. Quantum'uncertainly' theory of Hisenburg and determinism of Enstein are not truth because of differences in their perspectives. But a state of mnd free from perepectives is conception that none have except the Bhagwat Gita. It is like concept of Zero that exists but not found in emipiricism. I hope Yeshu read Emanel Kant 'critique of pure reason' and also Einsten. Did Freud cured of himself ? Did he ever imagine a concept of truth? Did he ever made his ideas that transform people? Did he made Gandhi out of countless other leaders. Freud is a speccialist or exprt in his job and serving a clinical investigaror in memory and behavior. His thoughts are certainly not fundamental and subject to continued changes and interpretation. I repect Freud as a normal specialist living out of skills of treatment of diseases, and not more. I do think that Yeshu is ignorant of what he is not yet known. He is empiricist and not curable unless he is rationalist. Sorry if I look unpleasant. regards Krishna Gopal Reply to Yeshu Rathenam Please read the Vedas, not the distorted books, which were used for conversion purposes to avoid being further misled. There is enough documentation from great people. Please read with open mind and courage for the benefit of all. Some of the following great people, listed below, had followed the Natural laws of Science of Self Realization, where their original knowledge was derived from Bhagavad-Gita, Upanishads, Vedas, Ramayan and other Vedic texts: Chinese Tao & Confucius; Japan's Rekki; Greek Pythagoras Socrates, Plato & Aristotle; Lord Buddha; Great Americans and Europeans: J. D. Sallinger; Richard Beck; Paul Gaugin; the great philosopher, Voltaire; Emerson; Henry Thoreau; Walt Whitman; French Author, Honore Balzac; Charles Dickens; US Auto Magnate, Henry Ford, whose great grandson is now a full time devotee of Lord Krishna in Detroit; Noble Laureate Isaac Bashevis Singer; British Poet Laureate John Mansfield; Musician, Song Writer, Celebrated Ex-Beatle George Harrison who remained a Lord Krishna's devotees until his passing away and his ashes were submerged in India's Trinity river i.e. Trivani (where Ganges i.e. Ganga river, Jamuna river and Sarswati River congregate); America Psychoanalyst, Erik Erikson; US General, George S. Patton; British Biologist, Thomas Huxley; Jack London; Irish Novelist and Poet, James Joyce; One of the greatest Psychologists, Carl Jung,; Nobel Laureate, Herman Hesse, in his classic novel of the search for spiritual truth SIDDHARTHA; Shirley McClain, Hollywood Actress German Max Muller wrote in his final days: “The Vedas are eternal and consequently perfect and infallible. The Vedas are the oldest Books for the Word of God. " Henry David Thoreau: “In the morning, I bathe my intellect in the stupendous and cosmogonal philosophy of the Bhagavad-Gita.” Aldous Huxley: “The Gita is one of the clearest and most comprehensive statements of perennial philosophy ever to have been made.” Albert Einstein: “Always kept a copy of Bhagavad-Gita and showed it to his friends by saying: “She is my Mother.” Mahatma Gandhi: “Those who meditate on the Bhagavad-Gita will derive fresh joy and new meanings from it everyday.” & #8195;Mahatma Gandhi wrote in his autobiography: “Such power as I possess for working in the political field has derived (from) my experiments in the spiritual field, “Truth is the sovereign principle,” and that Bhagavad-Gita is “the book par excellence for the knowledge of truth.” and more and more and more ............................. Joe Martin ---------- Dear Sadhakas, Namaste! Here is an attempt to convey the essence of my posts to Paul Pooniah's subsequent posts. His comments indicate to me that I am not understood. It may be due to my inability to use words to convey what I feel deep within. Relationship between the specific mind and God is like that of Mechanic and Tool only upon realization by that mind it is non-existent as an independent entity apart from God-Consciousness. It shines only in God's Presence, as our experience of perceptions and cognitions, thoughts and feelings, intellect and Ego which we choose to call Mind. Thus its conceptual in nature! So it is just a tool for relating to world. As such it is one with God. God manifests as and through mind-body-senses-ego and world. Now we can say it is liken the relationship between a Master mechanic(God) and tools(minds). Tools are His own creation for specific purposes. It may appear as mind and God(God being Consciousness Absolute), but in fact it is Only God all the way, through and through! If one can realize God as Consciousness Infinite which is also " we " or us, we can appreciate Mind being our friend. Namaskar! PRatap - baiya sathyanarayan Saturday, January 26, 2008 9:55 AM Re: Re: Conquering the mind Trying to conquer the mind is like running after something that one cannot catch. Just remain witness to the mind let loose. Do not perform actions that are not good to your intellect. Mind will become stable once desires are deleted one by one. B.Sathyanarayan I understand that the body mind mechanism is that of Sita and Rama.This is a psycho-somatic explanation, and differs from man and the Friend, God the supreme, The absolute and unique. Next the explanation of the worker and his tool, the tool can never become the worker but only an instrument of use to an end. They differ in purpose and power, so the relationship of man and the Friend God. So the logic continues. With honor to all, Paul Ponniah. -- Dear Sadhakji Don't confuse modern psychological terms with outdated, primitive and mythological Gita. Mr Pratap says in his message that by having Krishna 'consciousness,' one can conquer the mind. Freud, the famous psycho-analyst, projected the dimensions of mind. All at once Gita fanatics began to claim that Gita also deals with mind. They started their own ridiculous interpretation of mind-body interaction, quantimn physics etc., At the outset, it is to be emphasized that a myth is a legend. It is of a symbolic character, expressing primitive beliefs and theories concerning the nature of phenomena, and especially their supernatural origins. As we have seen in other religions in some Asian countries, there may be physical healing, miracles and supernatural experiences. It is all because of the fact evil spirits also have supernatural powers. But these powers are evanescent, temporary and short-lived. Krishna consciousness, claiming 'conquering the mind' comes under this category. Yeshu Rathenam --------- sadhak_insight <sadhak_insight wrote: Dear Sadhakas, Namaste! This is in response to Paul Ponniah's following post. " It is welcome to know that God is a friend, then we > are are only neighbors, and the influence is only > partial, then the I becoming one with my neighbor is > remote, and can never reach him. learning only > partially complete knowledge is absent. > need more clarity. > Good will towards all, > Thank you, > Paul Ponniah. " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 28, 2008 Report Share Posted January 28, 2008 Dear Sadhakas, I don't think we should worry about what one misinformed fellow like Yeshu-Rathenam has to say about GITA,WHICH HAS STOOD THE TEST OF TIME. Let us confine ourselves to more useful discussions and ignore such irrelevent comments. G.Vaidyanathan --------- I got angry after reading the post from Yeshu Rathenam. Am i right or wrong? I mean does it really matter.. I shouldn't have got angry right? Siva --------- Are we sure that Gita is only for Hindus??This word is not mentioned any where in Gita. Nor is the word "Dharma" meaning "RELIGION" used anywhere. Any one who will study Bhagwad Gita will benefit from it. It has been told for good of mankind; not Arjuna alone. Many have beneffitted from the study of Gita --Professors, Soldiers,Doctors, Managers, Engineers etc just to mention a few. Let us not get into arguments but study the Scripture and practice as much as we can. HARI OM -- Suhas Gogate --------- From: skylightDate: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 13:45:28 -0500Re: Re: Conquering the mind I am not sure how the post by Yeshu Rathenam came into circulation because I only received it inside someone's else's post . In any event I find it difficult to ignore the confused and misinformed posting comparing what Yeshu Rathenam describes as "outdated, primitive and mythological Gita" to what he refers to as "modern" and "psychological" Freud representing the valid and universal truth. If we are serious about what we write and say in this group then it is important to explain the significance of the Bhagvad Gita in our times.Regardless whether it is the Bhagvad Gita or any other mythological epic of the Hindus, or the Vedanta in general - not only have all of these *thrived* and endured in their original form over the last 5000 years or more of kings, dynasties, invaders, civilizations, cultural transformations and science, but that these epic scriptures happen to actually be part of that body of knowledge which is *eternally* valid, and not just a mythological *story* for the entertainment of children or something supernatural and evil or dark.I generally would not name Freud and the Bhagvad Gita or Krishnaconsciousness in the same breath. Because Freud is like the light from a matchstick and the light that comes from the Bhagvad Gita (in particular and the Vedanta in general) is like the light that comes from the sun. I do not say this simply as an argument, I actually mean it. The Bhagvad Gita represents and describes an absolute truth which is universally applicable regardless of what one's belief system or religion is. The Bhagvad Gita is close to the heart of Hindus, but its light belongs to the world. There arewestern scholars, scientists and philosophers who have described the Bhagvad Gita as an exalted philosophical work whose wisdom lights the way in our lives. To give an example Albert Einstein said, "When I read the Bhagavad-Gita and reflect about how God created this universe everything else seems so superfluous". And to give another example, Dr. Robert Oppenheimer, the scientist who created the atom bomb also derived sustenance from the wisdom of the Bhagvad Gita. If you wish to read about what the Bhagvad Gita read Dr. Oppenheimer's works. For the sake of convenience I have provided a short excerpt. The original reference is 45 pages of text on the subject of whatthe Bhagvad Gita meant to Dr. Oppenheimer. Please note that not only did Dr. Oppenheimer read the Bhagavad Gita in the original Sanskrit but also translated it into English.In any event I would like Yeshu Rathenam to please think about responses and remarks before making them. Because he has let his utter ignorance of any facts show because Freud died in 1939 and in the past six decades nearly 70% to 80% of Freud's ideas are no longer accepted as valid in psychology. So the authority that Yeshu Rathenam says Freud has in the so-called "modern" age has been rejected in less than 70 years. And the Bhagvad Gita for thousands of years continues to be the eternal fountain of spirituality providing sustenance and guidance towards the highest truths, and answers questions asked by all people who have some degree of awareness.It does not matter what religion Yeshu Rathenam belongs to because it is clear he knows as little about his own beliefs as he knows about the beliefs of others or any philosophical wisdom. He simply likes to hear his own voice or see his own words.Here is the quote from the article:"Oppenheimer acquired a deeper knowledge of the Bhagavad-Gita in 1933 when, as a young professor of physics with interests ranging far beyond his academic specialty, he studied Sanskrit with ProfessorArthur W. Ryder at Berkeley. The Gita, Oppenheimer excitedly wrote to his brother, was "very easy and quite marvelous."40 This is the earliest direct evidence of the impression the book made on Oppenheimer, and a lasting impression it was. Later he called the Gita "the most beautiful philosophical song existing in any known tongue." He kept a well-worn copy of it conveniently on hand on the bookshelf closest to his desk and often gave the book (in translation) to friends as a present. He continued to browse in it while directing the bomb laboratory. After President FranklinRoosevelt's death in April 1945, Oppenheimer spoke at a memorial service at Los Alamos and quoted a passage from the Gita. Clearly this ancient book was on his mind as the atomic bomb neared completion, even before he saw the dazzling fireball from the Trinity test. In later years, too, he would look back on the Gita as one of the most important influences in his life. In 1963, Christian Century magazine asked him to list the ten books that "did most to shape your vocational attitude and your philosophy of life." Alongwith Shakespeare's Hamlet and Eliot's Waste Land, Oppenheimer listed the Gita. The Bhagavad-Gita, whose title can be translated as the "Song of the Lord,"44 is a masterpiece and monument of Hinduism. One expert calls it "the most important single text for 'Hindu' religion,"....."Thank you,Biraj Khosla-------------------------Dear Yeshu RathenamI have to specifically reply to you and endorse you in 100% that say Bhagwat Gita is 'out dated' and 'primitive' and 'mythological'. In fact Sri Krishna himself says it ANAADI (not have begining, not included in time-space) devah, purushah PURAANAH (primitive, oldest, at begining of universe). Regarding 'mythological' I can only say that this survived to this day from thousands of years travelling in minds and hearts of people, not without becomong mythology. It is unlike the schools of paid education in so called modern sciences that never reaches all. No science is yet so perfect to take unchanging status of belief, and becoming mythlogy. Test of truth is never empirical and anything empirical cannot be truth. Empiricism is a perspective and it gets into relativity of observation from differing point of view. How do an idiot understand difference between truth and perspectives is the following. If the goal is low and reachable by two people, both see it differently and go to fight. But if the goal is high that none of them can see own ways, then both will see it one direction and only one perspective exists which is sum of both. This summing of perspective is called truth, and which is not source of conflict but unity of purpose. Truth is not justiciable, or not an optical exactness of observation or test of personal integrity but summing of perspectives, and unity of purpose or telescopic view of goal of all. It is a boy in hand of his grandfather together seeing aircraft flying in sky. If aircraft is grounded the perspectives will differ and boy will get separated from grand father, and not agree to one thing. Truth has no conflict in observers and it is end of Eisteins' research of the relativity. Quantum'uncertainly' theory of Hisenburg and determinism of Enstein are not truth because of differences in their perspectives. But a state of mnd free from perepectives is conception that none have except the Bhagwat Gita. It is like concept of Zero that exists but not found in emipiricism. I hope Yeshu read Emanel Kant 'critique of pure reason' and also Einsten.Did Freud cured of himself ? Did he ever imagine a concept of truth? Did he ever made his ideas that transform people? Did he made Gandhi out of countless other leaders. Freud is a speccialist or exprt in his job and serving a clinical investigaror in memory and behavior. His thoughts are certainly not fundamental and subject to continued changes and interpretation. I repect Freud as a normal specialist living out of skills of treatment of diseases, and not more. I do think that Yeshu is ignorant of what he is not yet known. He is empiricist and not curable unless he is rationalist. Sorry if I look unpleasant. regardsKrishna Gopal -------------------------Reply to Yeshu Rathenam Please read the Vedas, not the distorted books, which were used for conversion purposes to avoid being further misled. There is enough documentation from great people. Please read with open mind and courage for the benefit of all. Some of the following great people, listed below, had followed the Natural laws of Science of Self Realization, where their original knowledge was derived from Bhagavad-Gita, Upanishads, Vedas, Ramayan and other Vedic texts: Chinese Tao & Confucius; Japan's Rekki; Greek Pythagoras Socrates, Plato & Aristotle; Lord Buddha; Great Americans and Europeans: J. D. Sallinger; Richard Beck; Paul Gaugin; the great philosopher, Voltaire; Emerson; Henry Thoreau; Walt Whitman; French Author, Honore Balzac; Charles Dickens; US Auto Magnate, Henry Ford, whose great grandson is now a full time devotee of Lord Krishna in Detroit; Noble Laureate Isaac Bashevis Singer; British Poet Laureate John Mansfield; Musician, Song Writer, Celebrated Ex-Beatle George Harrison who remained a Lord Krishna's devotees until his passing away and his ashes were submerged in India's Trinity river i.e. Trivani (where Ganges i.e. Ganga river, Jamuna river and Sarswati River congregate); America Psychoanalyst, Erik Erikson; US General, George S. Patton; British Biologist, Thomas Huxley; Jack London; Irish Novelist and Poet, James Joyce; One of the greatest Psychologists, Carl Jung,; Nobel Laureate, Herman Hesse, in his classic novel of the search for spiritual truth SIDDHARTHA; Shirley McClain, Hollywood Actress German Max Muller wrote in his final days: “The Vedas are eternal and consequently perfect and infallible. The Vedas are the oldest Books for the Word of God." Henry David Thoreau: “In the morning, I bathe my intellect in the stupendous and cosmogonal philosophy of the Bhagavad-Gita.”Aldous Huxley: “The Gita is one of the clearest and most comprehensive statements of perennial philosophy ever to have been made.”Albert Einstein: “Always kept a copy of Bhagavad-Gita and showed it to his friends by saying: “She is my Mother.” Mahatma Gandhi: “Those who meditate on the Bhagavad-Gita will derive fresh joy and new meanings from it everyday.” & #8195;Mahatma Gandhi wrote in his autobiography: “Such power as I possess for working in the political field has derived (from) my experiments in the spiritual field, “Truth is the sovereign principle,” and that Bhagavad-Gita is “the book par excellence for the knowledge of truth.”and more and more and more .............................Joe Martin-------------------------Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!Here is an attempt to convey the essence of my poststo Paul Pooniah's subsequent posts. His commentsindicate to me that I am not understood. It may be dueto my inability to use words to convey what I feeldeep within.Relationship between the specific mind and God is likethat of Mechanic and Tool only upon realization bythat mind it is non-existent as an independent entityapart from God-Consciousness. It shines only in God'sPresence, as our experience of perceptions andcognitions, thoughts and feelings, intellect and Egowhich we choose to call Mind. Thus its conceptual innature! So it is just a tool for relating to world. Assuch it is one with God. God manifests as and throughmind-body-senses-ego and world. Now we can say it isliken the relationship between a Master mechanic(God)and tools(minds). Tools are His own creation forspecific purposes. It may appear as mind and God(Godbeing Consciousness Absolute), but in fact it is OnlyGod all the way, through and through!If one can realize God as Consciousness Infinite whichis also "we" or us, we can appreciate Mind being ourfriend.Namaskar! PRatap-------------------------- baiya sathyanarayan Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2008 9:55 AMRe: Re: Conquering the mindTrying to conquer the mind is like running after something that one cannotcatch. Just remain witness to the mind let loose. Do not perform actionsthat are not good to your intellect. Mind will become stable once desiresare deleted one by one.B.Sathyanarayan-------------------------I understand that the body mind mechanism is that of Sita and Rama.This is apsycho-somatic explanation, and differs from man and the Friend, God thesupreme, The absolute and unique.Next the explanation of the worker and his tool, the tool can never becomethe worker but only an instrument of use to an end. They differ in purposeand power, so the relationship of man and the Friend God.So the logic continues.With honor to all,Paul Ponniah.-------------------------Dear Sadhakji Don't confuse modern psychological terms with outdated,primitive and mythological Gita. Mr Pratap says in his message that byhaving Krishna 'consciousness,' one can conquer the mind. Freud, the famouspsycho-analyst, projected the dimensions of mind. All at once Gita fanaticsbegan to claim that Gita also deals with mind. They started their ownridiculous interpretation of mind-body interaction, quantimn physics etc.,At the outset, it is to be emphasized that a myth is a legend. It is of asymbolic character, expressing primitive beliefs and theories concerning thenature of phenomena, and especially their supernatural origins.As we have seen in other religions in some Asian countries, there may bephysical healing, miracles and supernatural experiences. It is all becauseof the fact evil spirits also have supernatural powers. But these powers areevanescent, temporary and short-lived. Krishna consciousness, claiming'conquering the mind' comes under this category.Yeshu Rathenam-------------------------sadhak_insight <sadhak_insight > wrote:Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!This is in response to Paul Ponniah's following post."It is welcome to know that God is a friend, then we> are are only neighbors, and the influence is only> partial, then the I becoming one with my neighbor is> remote, and can never reach him. learning only> partially complete knowledge is absent.> need more clarity.> Good will towards all,> Thank you,> Paul Ponniah." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 29, 2008 Report Share Posted January 29, 2008 Gita is message to entire humanity NOT SPECIFICALLY TO HINDUS. Nobody created Hinduism rather the spiritual learnings are the result of collective conciousness of the great sages, rishis and munis. In no Hindu scripture we find the word Hindu and nowhere it is written what Hindus should be doing specifically to remain Hindus. Even Hindus didn't create the word "Hindu" but this is the way the people on the other side of river Sindhu (Indus) addressed the people on this side. I believe in keeping my belief system open and not limit it by any limiting ideology, because I am a Hindu. Any religion and culture which has no provision for cleaning and updating it's beliefs will die out logically, but Hinduism has stood the test of time by cleaning up of it's attic by sages and great thinkers from time to time. On Bhurbhuva Swaha, Tatsavitur Varenayham Bhargodevasya Dhimahi, Dhiyo Yonah Prachodayat Amen ================================================================================== Shree Hari Ram Ram Shri Jayadayal Goenkaji has very beautiful articulated, that we must not give weight and importance to untruth, by counteracting against those who speak ill of the teaching of scriptures. By challenging their statements, we are giving importance to their words and making their message even more powerful. It is better to let it be, to become indifferent(udaasin), and continue to remain focused on the truth. "Nasato vidhyate bhava, Nabhavo ne vidhyate satah." Only truth can prevail the test of time. This is not the exact words of Shri Goenkaji, rather the essence of his message. A Sadhak Ram Ram ================================================================================== Shree Hari Ram Ram Yes, I agree with Mr. Vaidyanathan's point 100%, we should stick to constructive and positive discussion only! Humble Pranam! Madan Kaura ================================================================================== Dear co- sadhak bandhu Biraj Enlightening. Ennobling. Exilerating. Thats how my whole being felt. And, does on each recall. Grateful with fond regards, suresh sharma ================================================================================== On 1/28/08, Incandescent Skylight <skylight wrote: I am not sure how the post by Yeshu Rathenam came into circulation because I only received it inside someone's else's post . In any event I find it difficult to ignore the confused and misinformed posting comparing what Yeshu Rathenam describes as " outdated, primitive and mythological Gita " to what he refers to as " modern " and " psychological " Freud representing the valid and universal truth. If we are serious about what we write and say in this group then it is important to explain the significance of the Bhagvad Gita in our times. Regardless whether it is the Bhagvad Gita or any other mythological epic of the Hindus, or the Vedanta in general - not only have all of these *thrived* and endured in their original form over the last 5000 years or more of kings, dynasties, invaders, civilizations, cultural transformations and science, but that these epic scriptures happen to actually be part of that body of knowledge which is *eternally* valid, and not just a mythological *story* for the entertainment of children or something supernatural and evil or dark. I generally would not name Freud and the Bhagvad Gita or Krishnaconsciousness in the same breath. Because Freud is like the light from a matchstick and the light that comes from the Bhagvad Gita (in particular and the Vedanta in general) is like the light that comes from the sun. I do not say this simply as an argument, I actually mean it. The Bhagvad Gita represents and describes an absolute truth which is universally applicable regardless of what one's belief system or religion is. The Bhagvad Gita is close to the heart of Hindus, but its light belongs to the world. There are western scholars, scientists and philosophers who have described the Bhagvad Gita as an exalted philosophical work whose wisdom lights the way in our lives. To give an example Albert Einstein said, " When I read the Bhagavad-Gita and reflect about how God created this universe everything else seems so superfluous " . And to give another example, Dr. Robert Oppenheimer, the scientist who created the atom bomb also derived sustenance from the wisdom of the Bhagvad Gita. If you wish to read about what the Bhagvad Gita read Dr. Oppenheimer's works. For the sake of convenience I have provided a short excerpt. The original reference is 45 pages of text on the subject of whatthe Bhagvad Gita meant to Dr. Oppenheimer. Please note that not only did Dr. Oppenheimer read the Bhagavad Gita in the original Sanskrit but also translated it into English. In any event I would like Yeshu Rathenam to please think about responses and remarks before making them. Because he has let his utter ignorance of any facts show because Freud died in 1939 and in the past six decades nearly 70% to 80% of Freud's ideas are no longer accepted as valid in psychology. So the authority that Yeshu Rathenam says Freud has in the so-called " modern " age has been rejected in less than 70 years. And the Bhagvad Gita for thousands of years continues to be the eternal fountain of spirituality providing sustenance and guidance towards the highest truths, and answers questions asked by all people who have some degree of awareness. It does not matter what religion Yeshu Rathenam belongs to because it is clear he knows as little about his own beliefs as he knows about the beliefs of others or any philosophical wisdom. He simply likes to hear his own voice or see his own words. Here is the quote from the article: " Oppenheimer acquired a deeper knowledge of the Bhagavad-Gita in 1933 when, as a young professor of physics with interests ranging far beyond his academic specialty, he studied Sanskrit with Professor Arthur W. Ryder at Berkeley. The Gita, Oppenheimer excitedly wrote to his brother, was " very easy and quite marvelous. " 40 This is the earliest direct evidence of the impression the book made on Oppenheimer, and a lasting impression it was. Later he called the Gita " the most beautiful philosophical song existing in any known tongue. " He kept a well-worn copy of it conveniently on hand on the bookshelf closest to his desk and often gave the book (in translation) to friends as a present. He continued to browse in it while directing the bomb laboratory. After President Franklin Roosevelt's death in April 1945, Oppenheimer spoke at a memorial service at Los Alamos and quoted a passage from the Gita. Clearly this ancient book was on his mind as the atomic bomb neared completion, even before he saw the dazzling fireball from the Trinity test. In later years, too, he would look back on the Gita as one of the most important influences in his life. In 1963, Christian Century magazine asked him to list the ten books that " did most to shape your vocational attitude and your philosophy of life. " Along with Shakespeare's Hamlet and Eliot's Waste Land, Oppenheimer listed the Gita. The Bhagavad-Gita, whose title can be translated as the " Song of the Lord, " 44 is a masterpiece and monument of Hinduism. One expert calls it " the most important single text for 'Hindu' religion, " ..... " Thank you,Biraj Khosla-------------------------Dear Yeshu RathenamI have to specifically reply to you and endorse you in 100% that say Bhagwat Gita is 'out dated' and 'primitive' and 'mythological'. In fact Sri Krishna himself says it ANAADI (not have begining, not included in time-space) devah, purushah PURAANAH (primitive, oldest, at begining of universe). Regarding 'mythological' I can only say that this survived to this day from thousands of years travelling in minds and hearts of people, not without becomong mythology. It is unlike the schools of paid education in so called modern sciences that never reaches all. No science is yet so perfect to take unchanging status of belief, and becoming mythlogy. Test of truth is never empirical and anything empirical cannot be truth. Empiricism is a perspective and it gets into relativity of observation from differing point of view. How do an idiot understand difference between truth and perspectives is the following. If the goal is low and reachable by two people, both see it differently and go to fight. But if the goal is high that none of them can see own ways, then both will see it one direction and only one perspective exists which is sum of both. This summing of perspective is called truth, and which is not source of conflict but unity of purpose. Truth is not justiciable, or not an optical exactness of observation or test of personal integrity but summing of perspectives, and unity of purpose or telescopic view of goal of all. It is a boy in hand of his grandfather together seeing aircraft flying in sky. If aircraft is grounded the perspectives will differ and boy will get separated from grand father, and not agree to one thing. Truth has no conflict in observers and it is end of Eisteins' research of the relativity. Quantum'uncertainly' theory of Hisenburg and determinism of Enstein are not truth because of differences in their perspectives. But a state of mnd free from perepectives is conception that none have except the Bhagwat Gita. It is like concept of Zero that exists but not found in emipiricism. I hope Yeshu read Emanel Kant 'critique of pure reason' and also Einsten. Did Freud cured of himself ? Did he ever imagine a concept of truth? Did he ever made his ideas that transform people? Did he made Gandhi out of countless other leaders. Freud is a speccialist or exprt in his job and serving a clinical investigaror in memory and behavior. His thoughts are certainly not fundamental and subject to continued changes and interpretation. I repect Freud as a normal specialist living out of skills of treatment of diseases, and not more. I do think that Yeshu is ignorant of what he is not yet known. He is empiricist and not curable unless he is rationalist. Sorry if I look unpleasant. regardsKrishna Gopal ------------------------- Reply to Yeshu Rathenam Please read the Vedas, not the distorted books, which were used for conversion purposes to avoid being further misled. There is enough documentation from great people. Please read with open mind and courage for the benefit of all. Some of the following great people, listed below, had followed the Natural laws of Science of Self Realization, where their original knowledge was derived from Bhagavad-Gita, Upanishads, Vedas, Ramayan and other Vedic texts: Chinese Tao & Confucius; Japan's Rekki; Greek Pythagoras Socrates, Plato & Aristotle; Lord Buddha; Great Americans and Europeans: J. D. Sallinger; Richard Beck; Paul Gaugin; the great philosopher, Voltaire; Emerson; Henry Thoreau; Walt Whitman; French Author, Honore Balzac; Charles Dickens; US Auto Magnate, Henry Ford, whose great grandson is now a full time devotee of Lord Krishna in Detroit; Noble Laureate Isaac Bashevis Singer; British Poet Laureate John Mansfield; Musician, Song Writer, Celebrated Ex-Beatle George Harrison who remained a Lord Krishna's devotees until his passing away and his ashes were submerged in India's Trinity river i.e. Trivani (where Ganges i.e. Ganga river, Jamuna river and Sarswati River congregate); America Psychoanalyst, Erik Erikson; US General, George S. Patton; British Biologist, Thomas Huxley; Jack London; Irish Novelist and Poet, James Joyce; One of the greatest Psychologists, Carl Jung,; Nobel Laureate, Herman Hesse, in his classic novel of the search for spiritual truth SIDDHARTHA; Shirley McClain, Hollywood Actress German Max Muller wrote in his final days: "The Vedas are eternal and consequently perfect and infallible. The Vedas are the oldest Books for the Word of God. " Henry David Thoreau: "In the morning, I bathe my intellect in the stupendous and cosmogonal philosophy of the Bhagavad-Gita." Aldous Huxley: "The Gita is one of the clearest and most comprehensive statements of perennial philosophy ever to have been made."Albert Einstein: "Always kept a copy of Bhagavad-Gita and showed it to his friends by saying: "She is my Mother." Mahatma Gandhi: "Those who meditate on the Bhagavad-Gita will derive fresh joy and new meanings from it everyday." & #8195;Mahatma Gandhi wrote in his autobiography: "Such power as I possess for working in the political field has derived (from) my experiments in the spiritual field, "Truth is the sovereign principle," and that Bhagavad-Gita is "the book par excellence for the knowledge of truth." and more and more and more .............................Joe Martin-------------------------Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!Here is an attempt to convey the essence of my posts to Paul Pooniah's subsequent posts. His commentsindicate to me that I am not understood. It may be dueto my inability to use words to convey what I feeldeep within.Relationship between the specific mind and God is like that of Mechanic and Tool only upon realization bythat mind it is non-existent as an independent entityapart from God-Consciousness. It shines only in God'sPresence, as our experience of perceptions and cognitions, thoughts and feelings, intellect and Egowhich we choose to call Mind. Thus its conceptual innature! So it is just a tool for relating to world. Assuch it is one with God. God manifests as and through mind-body-senses-ego and world. Now we can say it isliken the relationship between a Master mechanic(God)and tools(minds). Tools are His own creation forspecific purposes. It may appear as mind and God(God being Consciousness Absolute), but in fact it is OnlyGod all the way, through and through!If one can realize God as Consciousness Infinite whichis also " we " or us, we can appreciate Mind being our friend.Namaskar! PRatap------------------------- - baiya sathyanarayan Saturday, January 26, 2008 9:55 AMRe: Re: Conquering the mindTrying to conquer the mind is like running after something that one cannotcatch. Just remain witness to the mind let loose. Do not perform actions that are not good to your intellect. Mind will become stable once desiresare deleted one by one.B.Sathyanarayan-------------------------I understand that the body mind mechanism is that of Sita and Rama.This is a psycho-somatic explanation, and differs from man and the Friend, God thesupreme, The absolute and unique.Next the explanation of the worker and his tool, the tool can never becomethe worker but only an instrument of use to an end. They differ in purpose and power, so the relationship of man and the Friend God.So the logic continues.With honor to all,Paul Ponniah.-------------------------Dear Sadhakji Don't confuse modern psychological terms with outdated, primitive and mythological Gita. Mr Pratap says in his message that byhaving Krishna 'consciousness,' one can conquer the mind. Freud, the famouspsycho-analyst, projected the dimensions of mind. All at once Gita fanatics began to claim that Gita also deals with mind. They started their ownridiculous interpretation of mind-body interaction, quantimn physics etc.,At the outset, it is to be emphasized that a myth is a legend. It is of a symbolic character, expressing primitive beliefs and theories concerning thenature of phenomena, and especially their supernatural origins.As we have seen in other religions in some Asian countries, there may be physical healing, miracles and supernatural experiences. It is all becauseof the fact evil spirits also have supernatural powers. But these powers areevanescent, temporary and short-lived. Krishna consciousness, claiming 'conquering the mind' comes under this category.Yeshu Rathenam-------------------------sadhak_insight <sadhak_insight wrote: Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!This is in response to Paul Ponniah's following post. " It is welcome to know that God is a friend, then we> are are only neighbors, and the influence is only> partial, then the I becoming one with my neighbor is > remote, and can never reach him. learning only> partially complete knowledge is absent.> need more clarity.> Good will towards all,> Thank you,> Paul Ponniah. " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.