Guest guest Posted February 29, 2008 Report Share Posted February 29, 2008 Ram Ram This is my first question to clear my doubt on Gita Lord Krishna says 1) Your right is only to perform your duty (to act, to work, karma) 2) Even if you do not kill Kaurvas they are already destined to be dead. You are only an instrument (Nimit i.e. apparent karta). 3) From above, I tend to understand that every event is pre-destined by Lord and we are only instruments, i.e. apparent karta. Then do we have choice of action (karma, duty)? Ram Ram Ramesh Suri --- FROM THE MODERATOR The following are the guidelines for Gita-Talk discussions. GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: 1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify their doubts related to Gitaji shalokas. Therefore, responses which further clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be posted. 2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to substantiate your response. 3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas 4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting sadhaka's time. 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only. 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other organizations. 7. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone number, address etc. 8. Please do not address the response to a particular individual since the message is going to the entire group. 9. Due to the large readership, all responses may not be posted. 10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if content is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the group. 11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use to Sanskrit words only, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit bracketed wherever possible. MODERATOR Ram Ram Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 1, 2008 Report Share Posted March 1, 2008 Dear Sadhakas, Namaste! Do we have a choice over action or everything is predetermined? I am sorry its a little long explanation but perhaps worth it! If one takes a careful look at any action, one will see that action is triggered by a thought or a set of thoughts that precedes it. These thoughts stem from our acquired conditioning(Sanskaras) based on time and place we grow up. Conditioning dictates the way we feel, think and act as if we are programmed having some choices. This manifests in our behavior in the guise of desires, fears, beliefs, opinions etc., etc giving us a false sense of separate entity(ego) with choices. Such conditioning come from this and many lives of living in ignorance of our real self as Atman. Due to this we remain in bondage. Our actions are thus always predictable and in accordance with our conditioned understanding(or misunderstanding) over which we seem to have no control. In other words our actions are reactions only. We don't choose thoughts, they come to us from such sanskaras. E. G. We are walking and smell coffee, and a thought appears " let's have coffee " ! (I am conditioned to like it). We take action to have coffee or not, but think we have a choice. It's not what actually happens though. If we can choose thoughts, why cannot we choose always happy or no thoughts? We cannot. So actions triggered in this way has no freedom or choice. Therefore, as long as we are under the spell of such ignorance, we don't have freedom or choice to act or not act. We just think we have choice to act because we don't notice who really acts, us or the conditioning. The real " us " is Atman, total freedom! Thus, it just looks as if everything is predetermined! This doesn't mean we cannot have choices to act. We do have the choice, just one. This is our first or last choice, and that is to dis-identify from our conditioning meaning freedom from all conditioning and abide as Atman, our True Self! This freedom is Intelligence or God acting through us and He/She has freedom at every momnet, not predetermined in the past. If we don't exercise this one and the last freedom God has given uncondionally to all of us, we don't have freedom to act at all. Namaskars! Pratap --- Loving Divine, Pranam. Thanks, very good question. Pandavas represent good and Kauravas represent bad qualities within us. There is constant struggle between these two within us so... when one makes a firm resolve or accepts to perform their duties without any expectations (good quality), one is released from lot of unnecessary tensions, worries, unpleasantness, and conflicts (bad qualities). It leads into cultivating seva (good) and when there is no expectation, greed / anger / jealousy / attachments, etc. (bad) are wiped out automatically. But, to an ignorant/deluded spiritual aspirant, it appears that they have to kill their bad qualities and he/she continues to make efforts in doing so. Bhagwan is saying it is not so... When our focus is on good, the bad automatically gets wiped out. Of course, it takes some effort for us to remain good initially until it becomes our nature as bad also wants to remain established with its dominance over us. But when we don't give in to bad and stick to good, bad automatically weakens/curbed/wiped out. Please look within while reading Gitaji. We are the cause of our own bondage and freedom. Arjuna got attached seeing his family members / relatives in the war field instead of enemies. He was ready to run away from the war. With the improved understanding he became detached and was ready to perform his duty. With the ego sense present he became concerned that how would they enjoy the pleasure of 3 worlds if rest of his family is not there? But when true knowledge dawns, such fear has no place. Our destiny is in our own hand. The world we see is our own creation and it is in our own hand to change or destroy it. Like a child, playing with sand creates or destroys a palace and still enjoys the play because he is not attached. Like in dream we create the whole world that only we know - no matter how much we try to explain our dream, it is still only we know what it was! So yes, we do have a choice - to perform any action with the doership of action (ego & attachment - bad quality) and thus enjoy/suffer the consequences of it or performing action according to dharma and knowing that indriyas are doing their job (BG 5:9) so without attachment (good quality), attain the higher self and thus let the so called good/bad not impact us. When doership is present, everything matters, when it is not there at all, nothing what so ever matters!!! humble regards, always at Thy Holy Feet Manjula Patel --- Interesting question........ answer lies in understanding " who are you? " and understanding the Leela - grand play Choice is to remain involved or be above..... Let it be a rigorous excercise till you get the answer not in words but in experience......... Sushil Jain --- Yes, God has betowed upon us VIVEK inner instinct for right & wrong. If we follow it with pure heart we will get it rite. Raja Gurdasani. --- , " sadhak_insight " <sadhak_insight wrote: > > Ram Ram > > This is my first question to clear my doubt on Gita > > Lord Krishna says > > 1) Your right is only to perform your duty (to act, to work, karma) > > 2) Even if you do not kill Kaurvas they are already destined to be > dead. You are only an instrument (Nimit i.e. apparent karta). > > 3) From above, I tend to understand that every event is pre- destined > by Lord and we are only instruments, i.e. apparent karta. > > Then do we have choice of action (karma, duty)? > > Ram Ram > > Ramesh Suri > > - -- > > FROM THE MODERATOR > > The following are the guidelines for Gita-Talk discussions. > > GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: > 1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify their doubts > related to Gitaji shalokas. Therefore, responses which further > clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be posted. > 2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to > substantiate your response. > 3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the > extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas > 4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting > sadhaka's time. > 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only. > 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other > organizations. > 7. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone > number, address etc. > 8. Please do not address the response to a particular individual > since the message is going to the entire group. > 9. Due to the large readership, all responses may not be posted. > 10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if content > is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the group. > 11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth, > westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use to Sanskrit > words only, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit bracketed > wherever possible. > > MODERATOR > Ram Ram > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 4, 2008 Report Share Posted March 4, 2008 Loving Divine, Pranam. In short, as long as we own the doership of action, we have no choice but the moment we give up this doership, we are free! humble regards, always at Thy Holy Feet Manjula Patel --- Namasthe, mr.Ramesh,This is my humble understanding. Based on your below steps, yes, you are absolutely right about first two steps. Just modifying the first step like this: Our right is only to perform our duty at that point of time which we feel our duty based on circumstance or situation or any other reason we can think of WITHOUT expecting/or worrying about anything in return for our action, then that places in in the path of karma yoga( Gita ,3rd chapter). Once we are fixed in that kind of activity, slowly we will relaize that ou mind becomes calm and clear. Then, slowly we understand the second step and eventually the third step too. We can only do what we think our duty is and become a witness for our own actions as a observer and God takes you to the other two steps..do not worry about it. Also, whenever we pray or act, only try to understand the starting path based on ur enquiry..and do not worry of the destination at all..You will definitely reach whatever you are intended to reach. Just 'surrender' urself and all your actions onto God and only by HIS grace can we even get the doubts and confusions. And unless we are confused, there cannot be clarity and slowly our mind gets calmer and calmer and we willl understand in our eart slowly by HIS grace. Regards, Bharathi --- HARI OM, All the below are from BG (Bagavath Geetha), Upanashids and scriptures. Where ever it is mentioned PK = Prarabdha Karma. Sri MahaVishnu is the giver of the fruits of PK. This birth is designed, packed and destined based on past actions (PK). Only freedom we have in this birth to do the best actions (karmas), spend maximum time in devotion and worship of God (Bakthi), for divinity and liberation. NARAYANA- SRI KRISHNA- SHIVAYA NAMAHA. B.Sathyanarayan ---- Dear friends Your replies are very knowledgeable I am KG student of Gitaji I will reframe my question which is very simple. I went to a restaurant XYZ today at say 10 A.M. I ordered A, B, C, dishes I completely ate A and B. I left about 60% of C as it contained too much chilies Was this trip to restaurant XYZ was predetermined or did I have choice to Visit or not to visit or visit to a different place Visit at different time Order different dishes Finish different %age of dishes And so on i.e. Return at such and such time to my home/to other place etc. I would love to hear from sadhaks Parnam Ram Ram Ramesh Suri ------------------------------ , " sadhak_insight " <sadhak_insight wrote: > > Dear Sadhakas, Namaste! > Do we have a choice over action or everything is predetermined? > > I am sorry its a little long explanation but perhaps worth it! > If one takes a careful look at any action, one will see that action > is triggered by a thought or a set of thoughts that precedes it. > These thoughts stem from our acquired conditioning(Sanskaras) based > on time and place we grow up. Conditioning dictates the way we > feel, think and act as if we are programmed having some choices. > This manifests in our behavior in the guise of desires, fears, > beliefs, opinions etc., etc giving us a false sense of separate > entity(ego) with choices. Such conditioning come from this and many > lives of living in ignorance of our real self as Atman. Due to this > we remain in bondage. Our actions are thus always predictable and in > accordance with our conditioned understanding(or misunderstanding) > over which we seem to have no control. In other words our actions > are reactions only. We don't choose thoughts, they come to us from > such sanskaras. E. G. We are walking and smell coffee, and a thought > appears " let's have coffee " ! (I am conditioned to like it). We take > action to have coffee or not, but think we have a choice. It's not > what actually happens though. If we can choose thoughts, why cannot > we choose always happy or no thoughts? We cannot. So actions > triggered in this way has no freedom or choice. Therefore, as long > as we are under the spell of such ignorance, we don't have freedom > or choice to act or not act. We just think we have choice to act > because we don't notice who really acts, us or the conditioning. The > real " us " is Atman, total freedom! Thus, it just looks as if > everything is predetermined! > This doesn't mean we cannot have choices to act. We do have the > choice, just one. This is our first or last choice, and that is to > dis-identify from our conditioning meaning freedom from all > conditioning and abide as Atman, our True Self! This freedom is > Intelligence or God acting through us and He/She has freedom at > every momnet, not predetermined in the past. If we don't exercise > this one and the last freedom God has given uncondionally to all of > us, we don't have freedom to act at all. > Namaskars! Pratap > > --- > Loving Divine, > Pranam. Thanks, very good question. > > Pandavas represent good and Kauravas represent bad qualities within > us. There is constant struggle between these two within us so... > > when one makes a firm resolve or accepts to perform their duties > without any expectations (good quality), one is released from lot of > unnecessary tensions, worries, unpleasantness, and conflicts (bad > qualities). It leads into cultivating seva (good) and when there is > no expectation, greed / anger / jealousy / attachments, etc. (bad) > are wiped out automatically. But, to an ignorant/deluded spiritual > aspirant, it appears that they have to kill their bad qualities and > he/she continues to make efforts in doing so. Bhagwan is saying it > is not so... When our focus is on good, the bad automatically gets > wiped out. Of course, it takes some effort for us to remain good > initially until it becomes our nature as bad also wants to remain > established with its dominance over us. But when we don't give in > to bad and stick to good, bad automatically weakens/curbed/wiped out. > > Please look within while reading Gitaji. We are the cause of our > own bondage and freedom. Arjuna got attached seeing his family > members / relatives in the war field instead of enemies. He was > ready to run away from the war. With the improved understanding he > became detached and was ready to perform his duty. With the ego > sense present he became concerned that how would they enjoy the > pleasure of 3 worlds if rest of his family is not there? But when > true knowledge dawns, such fear has no place. Our destiny is in our > own hand. The world we see is our own creation and it is in our own > hand to change or destroy it. Like a child, playing with sand > creates or destroys a palace and still enjoys the play because he is > not attached. Like in dream we create the whole world that only we > know - no matter how much we try to explain our dream, it is still > only we know what it was! So yes, we do have a choice - to perform > any action with the doership of action (ego & attachment - bad > quality) and thus enjoy/suffer the consequences of it or performing > action according to dharma and knowing that indriyas are doing their > job (BG 5:9) so without attachment (good quality), attain the higher > self and thus let the so called good/bad not impact us. When > doership is present, everything matters, when it is not there at > all, nothing what so ever matters!!! > > humble regards, > always at Thy Holy Feet > > Manjula Patel > --- > > Interesting question........ > > answer lies in understanding " who are you? " and understanding the > Leela - grand play > Choice is to remain involved or be above..... > > Let it be a rigorous excercise till you get the answer > not in words but in experience......... > Sushil Jain > > --- > Yes, God has betowed upon us VIVEK inner instinct for right & wrong. > If we follow it with pure heart we will get it rite. > > Raja Gurdasani. > > --- > > > , " sadhak_insight " > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > Ram Ram > > > > This is my first question to clear my doubt on Gita > > > > Lord Krishna says > > > > 1) Your right is only to perform your duty (to act, to work, karma) > > > > 2) Even if you do not kill Kaurvas they are already destined to be > > dead. You are only an instrument (Nimit i.e. apparent karta). > > > > 3) From above, I tend to understand that every event is pre- > destined > > by Lord and we are only instruments, i.e. apparent karta. > > > > Then do we have choice of action (karma, duty)? > > > > Ram Ram > > > > Ramesh Suri > > > > - > -- > > > > FROM THE MODERATOR > > > > The following are the guidelines for Gita-Talk discussions. > > > > GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: > > 1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify their doubts > > related to Gitaji shalokas. Therefore, responses which further > > clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be posted. > > 2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to > > substantiate your response. > > 3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the > > extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas > > 4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting > > sadhaka's time. > > 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only. > > 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other > > organizations. > > 7. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone > > number, address etc. > > 8. Please do not address the response to a particular individual > > since the message is going to the entire group. > > 9. Due to the large readership, all responses may not be posted. > > 10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if > content > > is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the group. > > 11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth, > > westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use to > Sanskrit > > words only, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit > bracketed > > wherever possible. > > > > MODERATOR > > Ram Ram > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 8, 2008 Report Share Posted March 8, 2008 Respected Sadhakas! " Do we have choice of action? " Answers to the following questions are requested earnestly -: 1. Who thinks? 2. Who does? 3. Who decides? 4. Who has choice of action? 5. When this 'Who' is bonded and when freed? 6. How does a doer not have doership? Please be precise and authenticated with Sadhak Sanjeevanee only. Thanks in advance for this trouble taken for me. Sincerely, Sarvottam Varma --- Dear Sadhakas, Namaste! I am addressing Rameshji's questions! When one goes to restaurant, either one feels hungry or some thought appears in the mind due to memory of previous tastes etc. In both or all such cases thoughts triggered the action to eat. Such thought(s) is deciding thought over which one has no control.(if we can choose thoughts, why not choose only happy thoughts or think about God continuously which is not possible, right?) What generally happens is that sense organ or a combination of sense organs come into contact with their respective objects(hearing contacts sound, sight contacts forms, skin creates tectile sensations etc.) and past memory of pleasurable experiences create a desire to act. Where is the choice on the part of an individual other than to execute the command of such a powerful boss? So either hunger in this case and/or senses(indriyas) with the help of mind instigated the action. When action is taken another thought arises: " I have a choice to eat such and such any time I want to " So you see they are all thoughts which we clearly don't choose, and hence consequent actions also we don't really choose. We take " ourselves " to be such thoughts and miss out noticing the birth of actions! THis is not predetermined action of the past but rather conditioning of our likes and dislikes makes us choose and we think we as an individual choose. There is no freedom of choice to a conditioned individual. If we pay attention as to who really acts when we seem to choose to act, we begin to dis-identify from such a " person " within us, made up of likes and dislikes, controlling our life every moment. Then we take our true stand as Witnessing-Consciousness in which such choices arise and actions are done without a doer thereof! Then true freedom reigns, thus choosing to act whatever is right in the present situation for greater good! With such freedom of choice we may not go to restaurant or go and eat what is good for our health and pocket! Namaskar... Pratap Bhatt - namasthe again, Based on your (Mr. Ramesh) different kind of question on the same subject, here is my humble opinion again. Your question is : " I went to a restaurant XYZ today at say 10 A.M. I ordered A, B, C, dishes I completely ate A and B.I left about 60% of C as it contained too much chilies Was this trip to restaurant XYZ was predetermined or did I have choice to visit or not to visit or visit to a different place. Visit at different time , order different dishes, etc etc etc. What I feel is: When you think of going to some XYZ place around 10 am., actually u think that u are able to successfully complete your plan of action. But even to reach the XYZ place, so many factors are dependent. What made u choose XYZ and ZZZ place ? It only happend that your idea and SUPREME's idea is same in this context and you were able to reach there. What I am trying to say is: just before u start, if a friend calls u and plans for ZZZ place, would u have gone there instead of XYZ in case if u do not have any particular preference? Also, when we are doing one particular action, we think and analyze only particular to oneself..(anyway thats the way to start self enquiry to one's own understanding)..but in a bigger picture with respect to entire world, u are and me are not alone..we each are interrelated to one another. The reason you went to XYZ probably is u were supposed to be there at that time and that is all (we being humans may not always be able to see the subtle experiences we and others go through whenever we are at one place). But again, if any particular obvious situation occurs at XYZ at 10 am when u were there, for example, u met a childhood friend whom u have not have seen for past 30 or 40 years..then u will wonder as to what made u be there at that time..? Based on that, you may question, then why should i plan or do anything if everything is already in God's hands? Even that thought also is because of that SUPREME ! and again, we do actions with the attitide of worship not because God wants u to worship but to keep our own mind calm... that too is done only by God's grace. Our entire life we are driven by action, therefore, Gita says..whatever virtuous actions u do, surrender and OFFER that action un to GOD. Going to a restaurant may be certain action, but u can offer that action of going also to the LORD. Do not worry, please continue your understanding and slowly we all understand God's grace by His own Grace. Regards, Bharathi --- Ramesh is observer of events and he is able to keep him stationery. Events like going to restaurant, food, left over and whether or not he goes there again are visuals which includes Ramesh but Ramesh can see it too, and is thus independent. Wonderful!!! First of all I pray to Ramesh for that he is not in KG but in Ph D in Bhagwat Gita. When speed of thoughts (shutter of manah) is high, speed of observation is slowed and at speed infinity, the universe is stand still. And this gives clear undertanding by engaged detachment. Libnitz, Gandhi, Einstein, Newton were too a follower of Ramesh and kept him statinery and observed the begining and end of universes. This is one of the very important point in Krishna's teachings. Bhagwat Gita says it most beautifully than any imagination and extreme of wonderful explanation. Kshetra - kshetragnya (Chapter 13), and in Vibhuti are more than enough. Updrasta, anumanta ch .................. There are three components in observation a) observed (drashya) b) drashta (that who sees it) and c) updrasta (who shows from behind what is seen). Sri Krshna is saying that he is first as UPDRASTA and as a knower of all fields, the entire univese is seen as running, as a one network which is self regulated by its laws, but it cannot be known by observation to those with a given point of view, but a detached observation is independent of point of views, and thus, knows the network in complete form. This is the difference Ramesh is now finding. Ramesh is seeing himself by himself. And by practicing it several years, he gets admitted to KG and knew Krishna a UPDRASTA. When he will understand it and takes decision from detached observer, he then goes to ANUMANTA then BHARTA then BHOKTA then MAHESWAR, then PARMESHWAR. Mat Chiitah Madgatah praana ................. For Ramesh, this is a guideline of observation when in detached condition and is most terrific. Sri Krishna with profound love gives a sort of warning before detachment is taught. Sri Krishna says to Arjun that you now see the network of universe as is on a drawing board (chitta, picture, drawing) and because you cannot hold your breath, take my breath to sustain this detached observation, and to not get lost into it, keep talking to me constantly so that you are aware of Me and not get lost in the good/bad dream. Read the sanskrit verse for the taste of truth yourelf... Less is more. Ramesh is KG student already and he now gets clue. Regards Krishna Gopal -- Dear divine souls, to understand clearly the doer and the Witeness.. there is a story in Upnishadss.. two birds are sitting on a tree. one is eating the bitter fruit, and the other is watching We had to understand the difference between the Two.. the Actor (Mr. kuldip) is doer The Witenessing Consciousness who is Watching the world as Witness, is the Real ME.. Silently....we watch not our own thoughts that are only repetitions of Past, or planning for the Future, We have to come to the Present Moment, when mind is Awakened to the NEW Reality The SELF ! Living in this Self, is first step thanks. my humble parnaams e.child Kuldip Suri -- --- , " sadhak_insight " <sadhak_insight wrote: > > Loving Divine, > Pranam. > In short, as long as we own the doership of action, we have no choice > but the moment we give up this doership, we are free! > humble regards, > always at Thy Holy Feet > Manjula Patel > > -- - > > Namasthe, mr.Ramesh,This is my humble understanding. > > Based on your below steps, yes, you are absolutely right about first > two steps. Just modifying the first step like this: Our right is only > to perform our duty at that point of time which we feel our duty based > on circumstance or situation or any other reason we can think of > WITHOUT expecting/or worrying about anything in return for our action, > then that places in in the path of karma yoga( Gita ,3rd chapter). > > Once we are fixed in that kind of activity, slowly we will relaize > that ou mind becomes calm and clear. Then, slowly we understand the > second step and eventually the third step too. > > We can only do what we think our duty is and become a witness for our > own actions as a observer and God takes you to the other two steps..do > not worry about it. > > Also, whenever we pray or act, only try to understand the starting > path based on ur enquiry..and do not worry of the destination at > all..You will definitely reach whatever you are intended to reach. > Just 'surrender' urself and all your actions onto God and only by HIS > grace can we even get the doubts and confusions. And unless we are > confused, there cannot be clarity and slowly our mind gets calmer and > calmer and we willl understand in our eart slowly by HIS grace. > > Regards, > Bharathi > -- - > > HARI OM, > All the below are from BG (Bagavath Geetha), Upanashids and scriptures. > Where ever it is mentioned PK = Prarabdha Karma. > > Sri MahaVishnu is the giver of the fruits of PK. This birth is > designed, packed and destined based on past actions (PK). Only freedom > we have in this birth to do the best actions (karmas), spend maximum > time in devotion and worship of God (Bakthi), for divinity and liberation. > > NARAYANA- SRI KRISHNA- SHIVAYA NAMAHA. > > B.Sathyanarayan > -- -- > > Dear friends > > Your replies are very knowledgeable > > I am KG student of Gitaji > > I will reframe my question which is very simple. > > > > I went to a restaurant XYZ today at say 10 A.M. > > I ordered A, B, C, dishes > > I completely ate A and B. > > I left about 60% of C as it contained too much chilies > > > > Was this trip to restaurant XYZ was predetermined or did I have choice to > > Visit or not to visit or visit to a different place > > Visit at different time > > Order different dishes > > Finish different %age of dishes > > And so on i.e. > > Return at such and such time to my home/to other place etc. > > I would love to hear from sadhaks > > Parnam > > Ram Ram > > Ramesh Suri > > ------------------------------ > > , " sadhak_insight " > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > Dear Sadhakas, Namaste! > > Do we have a choice over action or everything is predetermined? > > > > I am sorry its a little long explanation but perhaps worth it! > > If one takes a careful look at any action, one will see that action > > is triggered by a thought or a set of thoughts that precedes it. > > These thoughts stem from our acquired conditioning(Sanskaras) based > > on time and place we grow up. Conditioning dictates the way we > > feel, think and act as if we are programmed having some choices. > > This manifests in our behavior in the guise of desires, fears, > > beliefs, opinions etc., etc giving us a false sense of separate > > entity(ego) with choices. Such conditioning come from this and many > > lives of living in ignorance of our real self as Atman. Due to this > > we remain in bondage. Our actions are thus always predictable and in > > accordance with our conditioned understanding(or misunderstanding) > > over which we seem to have no control. In other words our actions > > are reactions only. We don't choose thoughts, they come to us from > > such sanskaras. E. G. We are walking and smell coffee, and a thought > > appears " let's have coffee " ! (I am conditioned to like it). We take > > action to have coffee or not, but think we have a choice. It's not > > what actually happens though. If we can choose thoughts, why cannot > > we choose always happy or no thoughts? We cannot. So actions > > triggered in this way has no freedom or choice. Therefore, as long > > as we are under the spell of such ignorance, we don't have freedom > > or choice to act or not act. We just think we have choice to act > > because we don't notice who really acts, us or the conditioning. The > > real " us " is Atman, total freedom! Thus, it just looks as if > > everything is predetermined! > > This doesn't mean we cannot have choices to act. We do have the > > choice, just one. This is our first or last choice, and that is to > > dis-identify from our conditioning meaning freedom from all > > conditioning and abide as Atman, our True Self! This freedom is > > Intelligence or God acting through us and He/She has freedom at > > every momnet, not predetermined in the past. If we don't exercise > > this one and the last freedom God has given uncondionally to all of > > us, we don't have freedom to act at all. > > Namaskars! Pratap > > > > --- > > Loving Divine, > > Pranam. Thanks, very good question. > > > > Pandavas represent good and Kauravas represent bad qualities within > > us. There is constant struggle between these two within us so... > > > > when one makes a firm resolve or accepts to perform their duties > > without any expectations (good quality), one is released from lot of > > unnecessary tensions, worries, unpleasantness, and conflicts (bad > > qualities). It leads into cultivating seva (good) and when there is > > no expectation, greed / anger / jealousy / attachments, etc. (bad) > > are wiped out automatically. But, to an ignorant/deluded spiritual > > aspirant, it appears that they have to kill their bad qualities and > > he/she continues to make efforts in doing so. Bhagwan is saying it > > is not so... When our focus is on good, the bad automatically gets > > wiped out. Of course, it takes some effort for us to remain good > > initially until it becomes our nature as bad also wants to remain > > established with its dominance over us. But when we don't give in > > to bad and stick to good, bad automatically weakens/curbed/wiped out. > > > > Please look within while reading Gitaji. We are the cause of our > > own bondage and freedom. Arjuna got attached seeing his family > > members / relatives in the war field instead of enemies. He was > > ready to run away from the war. With the improved understanding he > > became detached and was ready to perform his duty. With the ego > > sense present he became concerned that how would they enjoy the > > pleasure of 3 worlds if rest of his family is not there? But when > > true knowledge dawns, such fear has no place. Our destiny is in our > > own hand. The world we see is our own creation and it is in our own > > hand to change or destroy it. Like a child, playing with sand > > creates or destroys a palace and still enjoys the play because he is > > not attached. Like in dream we create the whole world that only we > > know - no matter how much we try to explain our dream, it is still > > only we know what it was! So yes, we do have a choice - to perform > > any action with the doership of action (ego & attachment - bad > > quality) and thus enjoy/suffer the consequences of it or performing > > action according to dharma and knowing that indriyas are doing their > > job (BG 5:9) so without attachment (good quality), attain the higher > > self and thus let the so called good/bad not impact us. When > > doership is present, everything matters, when it is not there at > > all, nothing what so ever matters!!! > > > > humble regards, > > always at Thy Holy Feet > > > > Manjula Patel > > --- > > > > Interesting question........ > > > > answer lies in understanding " who are you? " and understanding the > > Leela - grand play > > Choice is to remain involved or be above..... > > > > Let it be a rigorous excercise till you get the answer > > not in words but in experience......... > > Sushil Jain > > > > --- > > Yes, God has betowed upon us VIVEK inner instinct for right & wrong. > > If we follow it with pure heart we will get it rite. > > > > Raja Gurdasani. > > > > --- > > > > > > , " sadhak_insight " > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > > > Ram Ram > > > > > > This is my first question to clear my doubt on Gita > > > > > > Lord Krishna says > > > > > > 1) Your right is only to perform your duty (to act, to work, karma) > > > > > > 2) Even if you do not kill Kaurvas they are already destined to be > > > dead. You are only an instrument (Nimit i.e. apparent karta). > > > > > > 3) From above, I tend to understand that every event is pre- > > destined > > > by Lord and we are only instruments, i.e. apparent karta. > > > > > > Then do we have choice of action (karma, duty)? > > > > > > Ram Ram > > > > > > Ramesh Suri > > > > > > ------------------------------- --- > > -- > > > > > > FROM THE MODERATOR > > > > > > The following are the guidelines for Gita-Talk discussions. > > > > > > GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: > > > 1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify their doubts > > > related to Gitaji shalokas. Therefore, responses which further > > > clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be posted. > > > 2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to > > > substantiate your response. > > > 3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the > > > extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas > > > 4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting > > > sadhaka's time. > > > 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only. > > > 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other > > > organizations. > > > 7. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone > > > number, address etc. > > > 8. Please do not address the response to a particular individual > > > since the message is going to the entire group. > > > 9. Due to the large readership, all responses may not be posted. > > > 10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if > > content > > > is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the group. > > > 11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth, > > > westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use to > > Sanskrit > > > words only, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit > > bracketed > > > wherever possible. > > > > > > MODERATOR > > > Ram Ram > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 14, 2008 Report Share Posted March 14, 2008 Dear Sadhakas, Namaste! I want to address questions raised by Sarvottamji, which, I think, are consistent with Pujya Swamiji's Sadhak Sanjeevanee ! However, it is my humble request to have an open mind for what you read or hear anywhere as we are after Truth and Truth can come from all directions to open mind! Notice one thing though: to be able to say answers are not consistent, one has to already know the answers given in Sanjeevanee, right? Answers of first four are: It is Truth of What we are, that thinks, decides, and does out of the freedom of choice It has! That Truth we are, somehow, gets identified as 'my' body and all that 'I know' through mind, and mistakes it as real I or Ego. This is ignorance of myself - ego I, who thinks it is I who decides, does and has free will to make a choice. Such limited entity cannot have Freedom we are interested in here! Ego is the name for Bondage, which is outcome of ignorance! TO answer no 5, True WHO is never bound, and Ego is never free by its definition. As an Individual I have only one freedom, to say yes or no to Consciousness-God and be eternally free or in Bondage until ...... Pratap Bhatt Upon realizing the Truth being One's true and only SELF, one gets all kinds of intimations from Truth to act through mind-body instrument. Before realization, mind was boss, and now the same mind upon seeing the truth, becomes the servant executor of Truth. This Truth is Intelligence called God or Atman, meaning One Whole Consciousness which is Absolute Existence, One behind all our individual existences! - Ek hi hai.......................... Ek ki Leela hai................ (There is only One; It is the Divine Play of That One) Sushil Jain -- we are all directed already. mind is the answer to the six questions. That mind is governed by buddhi the intelligence which is the god. thererefore we say vasudevassarvam (All is God) and hence submission including ego ensures freedom and happiness. vasanat vasudevasya vasitam te jagatrayam sarvabhuta nivossosi vasudeva namostute. one mantra kamokarshit manyurakarshitnamonamah. kamah karoti naham karomi kamah karta naham karta esa kama kamaaya svaha. manaeva karanam bandha mokshayoh. tena vina na kimapi pracalati. the term kimapi draws our attention. best we should enjoy the sense ydyat karma karomi tattadakhilam sambho tavaradhanam as sankara advvise. Krishna too teaches to regulate mind through gita and this was realised by arjuna and hence he agreed to do what is wanted by the Lord. subham prabhakar ------------------------------ , " sadhak_insight " <sadhak_insight wrote: > > Respected Sadhakas! > " Do we have choice of action? " > Answers to the following questions are requested earnestly -: > 1. Who thinks? > 2. Who does? > 3. Who decides? > 4. Who has choice of action? > 5. When this 'Who' is bonded and when freed? > 6. How does a doer not have doership? > Please be precise and authenticated with Sadhak Sanjeevanee only. > Thanks in advance for this trouble taken for me. > Sincerely, > Sarvottam Varma > -- - > Dear Sadhakas, Namaste! > > I am addressing Rameshji's questions! > When one goes to restaurant, either one feels hungry or some thought > appears in the mind due to memory of previous tastes etc. In both or > all such cases thoughts triggered the action to eat. Such thought (s) > is deciding thought over which one has no control.(if we can choose > thoughts, why not choose only happy thoughts or think about God > continuously which is not possible, right?) > What generally happens is that sense organ or a combination of sense > organs come into contact with their respective objects(hearing > contacts sound, sight contacts forms, skin creates tectile sensations > etc.) and past memory of pleasurable experiences create a desire to > act. Where is the choice on the part of an individual other than to > execute the command of such a powerful boss? So either hunger in > this case and/or senses(indriyas) with the help of mind instigated > the action. When action is taken another thought arises: " I have a > choice to eat such and such any time I want to " So you see they are > all thoughts which we clearly don't choose, and hence consequent > actions also we don't really choose. We take " ourselves " to be such > thoughts and miss out noticing the birth of actions! > THis is not predetermined action of the past but rather conditioning > of our likes and dislikes makes us choose and we think we as an > individual choose. > There is no freedom of choice to a conditioned individual. If we pay > attention as to who really acts when we seem to choose to act, we > begin to dis-identify from such a " person " within us, made up of > likes and dislikes, controlling our life every moment. Then we > take our true stand as Witnessing-Consciousness in which such choices > arise and actions are done without a doer thereof! Then true freedom > reigns, thus choosing to act whatever is right in the present > situation for greater good! With such freedom of choice we may not > go to restaurant or go and eat what is good for our health and pocket! > Namaskar... > > Pratap Bhatt > > > - > namasthe again, > > Based on your (Mr. Ramesh) different kind of question on the same > subject, here is my humble opinion again. > > Your question is : > " I went to a restaurant XYZ today at say 10 A.M. I ordered A, B, C, > dishes I completely ate A and B.I left about 60% of C as it contained > too much chilies Was this trip to restaurant XYZ was predetermined or > did I have choice to visit or not to visit or visit to a different > place. Visit at different time , order different dishes, etc etc > etc. > > What I feel is: When you think of going to some XYZ place around 10 > am., actually u think that u are able to successfully complete your > plan of action. But even to reach the XYZ place, so many factors are > dependent. What made u choose XYZ and ZZZ place ? It only happend > that your idea and SUPREME's idea is same in this context and you > were able to reach there. What I am trying to say is: just before u > start, if a friend calls u and plans for ZZZ place, would u have gone > there instead of XYZ in case if u do not have any particular > preference? Also, when we are doing one particular action, we think > and analyze only particular to oneself..(anyway thats the way to > start self enquiry to one's own understanding)..but in a bigger > picture with respect to entire world, u are and me are not alone..we > each are interrelated to one another. The reason you went to XYZ > probably is u were supposed to be there at that time and that is all > (we being humans may not always be able to see the subtle experiences > we and others go through whenever we are at one place). But again, if > any particular obvious situation occurs at XYZ at 10 am when u were > there, for example, u met a childhood friend whom u have not have > seen for past 30 or 40 years..then u will wonder as to what made u be > there at that time..? Based on that, you may question, then why > should i plan or do anything if everything is already in God's > hands? Even that thought also is because of that SUPREME ! and > again, we do actions with the attitide of worship not because God > wants u to worship but to keep our own mind calm... that too is done > only by God's grace. > > Our entire life we are driven by action, therefore, Gita > says..whatever virtuous actions u do, surrender and OFFER that action > un to GOD. Going to a restaurant may be certain action, but u can > offer that action of going also to the LORD. > > Do not worry, please continue your understanding and slowly we all > understand God's grace by His own Grace. > Regards, > Bharathi > -- - > > Ramesh is observer of events and he is able to keep him stationery. > Events like going to restaurant, food, left over and whether or not > he goes there again are visuals which includes Ramesh but Ramesh can > see it too, and is thus independent. Wonderful!!! First of all I > pray to Ramesh for that he is not in KG but in Ph D in Bhagwat Gita. > > When speed of thoughts (shutter of manah) is high, speed of > observation is slowed and at speed infinity, the universe is stand > still. And this gives clear undertanding by engaged detachment. > Libnitz, Gandhi, Einstein, Newton were too a follower of Ramesh and > kept him statinery and observed the begining and end of universes. > This is one of the very important point in Krishna's teachings. > > Bhagwat Gita says it most beautifully than any imagination and > extreme of wonderful explanation. Kshetra - kshetragnya (Chapter 13), > and in Vibhuti are more than enough. > > Updrasta, anumanta ch .................. > There are three components in observation a) observed (drashya) b) > drashta (that who sees it) and c) updrasta (who shows from behind > what is seen). Sri Krshna is saying that he is first as UPDRASTA and > as a knower of all fields, the entire univese is seen as running, as > a one network which is self regulated by its laws, but it cannot be > known by observation to those with a given point of view, but a > detached observation is independent of point of views, and thus, > knows the network in complete form. This is the difference Ramesh is > now finding. Ramesh is seeing himself by himself. And by practicing > it several years, he gets admitted to KG and knew Krishna a UPDRASTA. > When he will understand it and takes decision from detached observer, > he then goes to ANUMANTA then BHARTA then BHOKTA then MAHESWAR, then > PARMESHWAR. > > Mat Chiitah Madgatah praana ................. > For Ramesh, this is a guideline of observation when in detached > condition and is most terrific. Sri Krishna with profound love gives > a sort of warning before detachment is taught. Sri Krishna says to > Arjun that you now see the network of universe as is on a drawing > board (chitta, picture, drawing) and because you cannot hold your > breath, take my breath to sustain this detached observation, and to > not get lost into it, keep talking to me constantly so that you are > aware of Me and not get lost in the good/bad dream. Read the > sanskrit verse for the taste of truth yourelf... > > Less is more. Ramesh is KG student already and he now gets clue. > > Regards > Krishna Gopal > > > -- > Dear divine souls, > > to understand clearly the doer and the Witeness.. > > there is a story in Upnishadss.. > two birds are sitting on a tree. > one is eating the bitter fruit, > and the other is watching > We had to understand the difference between the Two.. > the Actor (Mr. kuldip) is doer > The Witenessing Consciousness who is Watching the world as Witness, > is the Real ME.. > Silently....we watch not our own thoughts that are only repetitions > of Past, or planning for the Future, > We have to come to the Present Moment, when mind is Awakened to the > NEW Reality > The SELF ! > Living in this Self, is first step > thanks. > my humble parnaams > e.child > > Kuldip Suri > -- > > > -- - > > , " sadhak_insight " > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > Loving Divine, > > Pranam. > > In short, as long as we own the doership of action, we have no > choice > > but the moment we give up this doership, we are free! > > humble regards, > > always at Thy Holy Feet > > Manjula Patel > > > > -- > - > > > > Namasthe, mr.Ramesh,This is my humble understanding. > > > > Based on your below steps, yes, you are absolutely right about first > > two steps. Just modifying the first step like this: Our right is > only > > to perform our duty at that point of time which we feel our duty > based > > on circumstance or situation or any other reason we can think of > > WITHOUT expecting/or worrying about anything in return for our > action, > > then that places in in the path of karma yoga( Gita ,3rd chapter). > > > > Once we are fixed in that kind of activity, slowly we will relaize > > that ou mind becomes calm and clear. Then, slowly we understand the > > second step and eventually the third step too. > > > > We can only do what we think our duty is and become a witness for > our > > own actions as a observer and God takes you to the other two > steps..do > > not worry about it. > > > > Also, whenever we pray or act, only try to understand the starting > > path based on ur enquiry..and do not worry of the destination at > > all..You will definitely reach whatever you are intended to reach. > > Just 'surrender' urself and all your actions onto God and only by > HIS > > grace can we even get the doubts and confusions. And unless we are > > confused, there cannot be clarity and slowly our mind gets calmer > and > > calmer and we willl understand in our eart slowly by HIS grace. > > > > Regards, > > Bharathi > > -- > - > > > > HARI OM, > > All the below are from BG (Bagavath Geetha), Upanashids and > scriptures. > > Where ever it is mentioned PK = Prarabdha Karma. > > > > Sri MahaVishnu is the giver of the fruits of PK. This birth is > > designed, packed and destined based on past actions (PK). Only > freedom > > we have in this birth to do the best actions (karmas), spend maximum > > time in devotion and worship of God (Bakthi), for divinity and > liberation. > > > > NARAYANA- SRI KRISHNA- SHIVAYA NAMAHA. > > > > B.Sathyanarayan > > -- > -- > > > > Dear friends > > > > Your replies are very knowledgeable > > > > I am KG student of Gitaji > > > > I will reframe my question which is very simple. > > > > > > > > I went to a restaurant XYZ today at say 10 A.M. > > > > I ordered A, B, C, dishes > > > > I completely ate A and B. > > > > I left about 60% of C as it contained too much chilies > > > > > > > > Was this trip to restaurant XYZ was predetermined or did I have > choice to > > > > Visit or not to visit or visit to a different place > > > > Visit at different time > > > > Order different dishes > > > > Finish different %age of dishes > > > > And so on i.e. > > > > Return at such and such time to my home/to other place etc. > > > > I would love to hear from sadhaks > > > > Parnam > > > > Ram Ram > > > > Ramesh Suri > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > , " sadhak_insight " > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > > > Dear Sadhakas, Namaste! > > > Do we have a choice over action or everything is predetermined? > > > > > > I am sorry its a little long explanation but perhaps worth it! > > > If one takes a careful look at any action, one will see that > action > > > is triggered by a thought or a set of thoughts that precedes it. > > > These thoughts stem from our acquired conditioning(Sanskaras) > based > > > on time and place we grow up. Conditioning dictates the way we > > > feel, think and act as if we are programmed having some choices. > > > This manifests in our behavior in the guise of desires, fears, > > > beliefs, opinions etc., etc giving us a false sense of separate > > > entity(ego) with choices. Such conditioning come from this and > many > > > lives of living in ignorance of our real self as Atman. Due to > this > > > we remain in bondage. Our actions are thus always predictable and > in > > > accordance with our conditioned understanding(or misunderstanding) > > > over which we seem to have no control. In other words our actions > > > are reactions only. We don't choose thoughts, they come to us from > > > such sanskaras. E. G. We are walking and smell coffee, and a > thought > > > appears " let's have coffee " ! (I am conditioned to like it). We > take > > > action to have coffee or not, but think we have a choice. It's not > > > what actually happens though. If we can choose thoughts, why > cannot > > > we choose always happy or no thoughts? We cannot. So actions > > > triggered in this way has no freedom or choice. Therefore, as long > > > as we are under the spell of such ignorance, we don't have freedom > > > or choice to act or not act. We just think we have choice to act > > > because we don't notice who really acts, us or the conditioning. > The > > > real " us " is Atman, total freedom! Thus, it just looks as if > > > everything is predetermined! > > > This doesn't mean we cannot have choices to act. We do have the > > > choice, just one. This is our first or last choice, and that is to > > > dis-identify from our conditioning meaning freedom from all > > > conditioning and abide as Atman, our True Self! This freedom is > > > Intelligence or God acting through us and He/She has freedom at > > > every momnet, not predetermined in the past. If we don't exercise > > > this one and the last freedom God has given uncondionally to all > of > > > us, we don't have freedom to act at all. > > > Namaskars! Pratap > > > > > > ------------------------------- -- > --- > > > Loving Divine, > > > Pranam. Thanks, very good question. > > > > > > Pandavas represent good and Kauravas represent bad qualities > within > > > us. There is constant struggle between these two within us so... > > > > > > when one makes a firm resolve or accepts to perform their duties > > > without any expectations (good quality), one is released from lot > of > > > unnecessary tensions, worries, unpleasantness, and conflicts (bad > > > qualities). It leads into cultivating seva (good) and when there > is > > > no expectation, greed / anger / jealousy / attachments, etc. (bad) > > > are wiped out automatically. But, to an ignorant/deluded > spiritual > > > aspirant, it appears that they have to kill their bad qualities > and > > > he/she continues to make efforts in doing so. Bhagwan is saying > it > > > is not so... When our focus is on good, the bad automatically > gets > > > wiped out. Of course, it takes some effort for us to remain good > > > initially until it becomes our nature as bad also wants to remain > > > established with its dominance over us. But when we don't give in > > > to bad and stick to good, bad automatically weakens/curbed/wiped > out. > > > > > > Please look within while reading Gitaji. We are the cause of our > > > own bondage and freedom. Arjuna got attached seeing his family > > > members / relatives in the war field instead of enemies. He was > > > ready to run away from the war. With the improved understanding > he > > > became detached and was ready to perform his duty. With the ego > > > sense present he became concerned that how would they enjoy the > > > pleasure of 3 worlds if rest of his family is not there? But when > > > true knowledge dawns, such fear has no place. Our destiny is in > our > > > own hand. The world we see is our own creation and it is in our > own > > > hand to change or destroy it. Like a child, playing with sand > > > creates or destroys a palace and still enjoys the play because he > is > > > not attached. Like in dream we create the whole world that only > we > > > know - no matter how much we try to explain our dream, it is still > > > only we know what it was! So yes, we do have a choice - to > perform > > > any action with the doership of action (ego & attachment - bad > > > quality) and thus enjoy/suffer the consequences of it or > performing > > > action according to dharma and knowing that indriyas are doing > their > > > job (BG 5:9) so without attachment (good quality), attain the > higher > > > self and thus let the so called good/bad not impact us. When > > > doership is present, everything matters, when it is not there at > > > all, nothing what so ever matters!!! > > > > > > humble regards, > > > always at Thy Holy Feet > > > > > > Manjula Patel > > > ------------------------------- -- > --- > > > > > > Interesting question........ > > > > > > answer lies in understanding " who are you? " and understanding the > > > Leela - grand play > > > Choice is to remain involved or be above..... > > > > > > Let it be a rigorous excercise till you get the answer > > > not in words but in experience......... > > > Sushil Jain > > > > > > ------------------------------- -- > --- > > > Yes, God has betowed upon us VIVEK inner instinct for right & > wrong. > > > If we follow it with pure heart we will get it rite. > > > > > > Raja Gurdasani. > > > > > > ------------------------------- -- > --- > > > > > > > > > , " sadhak_insight " > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Ram Ram > > > > > > > > This is my first question to clear my doubt on Gita > > > > > > > > Lord Krishna says > > > > > > > > 1) Your right is only to perform your duty (to act, to work, > karma) > > > > > > > > 2) Even if you do not kill Kaurvas they are already destined to > be > > > > dead. You are only an instrument (Nimit i.e. apparent karta). > > > > > > > > 3) From above, I tend to understand that every event is pre- > > > destined > > > > by Lord and we are only instruments, i.e. apparent karta. > > > > > > > > Then do we have choice of action (karma, duty)? > > > > > > > > Ram Ram > > > > > > > > Ramesh Suri > > > > > > > > ----------------------------- -- > --- > > > -- > > > > > > > > FROM THE MODERATOR > > > > > > > > The following are the guidelines for Gita-Talk discussions. > > > > > > > > GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: > > > > 1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify their doubts > > > > related to Gitaji shalokas. Therefore, responses which further > > > > clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be posted. > > > > 2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to > > > > substantiate your response. > > > > 3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the > > > > extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas > > > > 4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting > > > > sadhaka's time. > > > > 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only. > > > > 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other > > > > organizations. > > > > 7. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone > > > > number, address etc. > > > > 8. Please do not address the response to a particular individual > > > > since the message is going to the entire group. > > > > 9. Due to the large readership, all responses may not be posted. > > > > 10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if > > > content > > > > is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the group. > > > > 11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth, > > > > westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use to > > > Sanskrit > > > > words only, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit > > > bracketed > > > > wherever possible. > > > > > > > > MODERATOR > > > > Ram Ram > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 2, 2008 Report Share Posted May 2, 2008 Yes you do have choice of action. You can use both the hands to pray Bagavan. Same hands to kill someone. Worship and Devotion (Bakthi) by hands gives DAYA (compassion) from God. Hands misused gives Bramahathi Dosa. For all actions there is fruit (phala). Choice is yours. The phala (fruit) can be later part of life or in the next birth. In Veda, it is said that by the act of abusing a person, we take part in his sins. By serving, doing charity (Dana), righteousness (Dharma) etc we get spiritual merits ( Puniyas) which results in a luxurious and good future life. " So engage in devotion and worship (bhajan) on Govinda to elevate yourself " says Bajagovindam script. B.Sathyanarayan -- , " sadhak_insight " <sadhak_insight wrote: > > Dear Sadhakas, Namaste! > > I want to address questions raised by Sarvottamji, which, I think, > are consistent with Pujya Swamiji's Sadhak Sanjeevanee ! However, it > is my humble request to have an open mind for what you read or hear > anywhere as we are after Truth and Truth can come from all directions > to open mind! Notice one thing though: to be able to say answers are > not consistent, one has to already know the answers given in > Sanjeevanee, right? > > Answers of first four are: It is Truth of What we are, that thinks, > decides, and does out of the freedom of choice It has! That Truth we > are, somehow, gets identified as 'my' body and all that 'I know' > through mind, and mistakes it as real I or Ego. This is ignorance of > myself - ego I, who thinks it is I who decides, does and has free > will to make a choice. Such limited entity cannot have Freedom we > are interested in here! Ego is the name for Bondage, which is outcome > of ignorance! TO answer no 5, True WHO is never bound, and Ego is > never free by its definition. As an Individual I have only one > freedom, to say yes or no to Consciousness-God and be eternally free > or in Bondage until ...... > > Pratap Bhatt > > Upon realizing the Truth being One's true and only SELF, one gets all > kinds of intimations from Truth to act through mind-body instrument. > Before realization, mind was boss, and now the same mind upon seeing > the truth, becomes the servant executor of Truth. This Truth is > Intelligence called God or Atman, meaning One Whole Consciousness > which is Absolute Existence, One behind all our individual existences! > > - > > Ek hi hai.......................... > Ek ki Leela hai................ > > (There is only One; It is the Divine Play of That One) > > Sushil Jain > - - > > we are all directed already. mind is the answer to the six > questions. That mind is governed by buddhi the intelligence which is > the god. > thererefore we say vasudevassarvam (All is God) and hence submission > including ego ensures freedom and happiness. > > vasanat vasudevasya vasitam te jagatrayam sarvabhuta nivossosi > vasudeva namostute. > one mantra kamokarshit manyurakarshitnamonamah. > kamah karoti naham karomi kamah karta naham karta esa kama kamaaya > svaha. > manaeva karanam bandha mokshayoh. tena vina na kimapi pracalati. > the term kimapi draws our attention. > > best we should enjoy the sense ydyat karma karomi tattadakhilam > sambho tavaradhanam as sankara advvise. > > Krishna too teaches to regulate mind through gita and this was > realised by arjuna and hence he agreed to do what is wanted by the > Lord. > subham > prabhakar > > ------------------------------ > > , " sadhak_insight " > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > Respected Sadhakas! > > " Do we have choice of action? " > > Answers to the following questions are requested earnestly -: > > 1. Who thinks? > > 2. Who does? > > 3. Who decides? > > 4. Who has choice of action? > > 5. When this 'Who' is bonded and when freed? > > 6. How does a doer not have doership? > > Please be precise and authenticated with Sadhak Sanjeevanee only. > > Thanks in advance for this trouble taken for me. > > Sincerely, > > Sarvottam Varma > > -------------------------------- --- > - > > Dear Sadhakas, Namaste! > > > > I am addressing Rameshji's questions! > > When one goes to restaurant, either one feels hungry or some > thought > > appears in the mind due to memory of previous tastes etc. In both > or > > all such cases thoughts triggered the action to eat. Such thought > (s) > > is deciding thought over which one has no control.(if we can choose > > thoughts, why not choose only happy thoughts or think about God > > continuously which is not possible, right?) > > What generally happens is that sense organ or a combination of > sense > > organs come into contact with their respective objects(hearing > > contacts sound, sight contacts forms, skin creates tectile > sensations > > etc.) and past memory of pleasurable experiences create a desire to > > act. Where is the choice on the part of an individual other than > to > > execute the command of such a powerful boss? So either hunger in > > this case and/or senses(indriyas) with the help of mind instigated > > the action. When action is taken another thought arises: " I have a > > choice to eat such and such any time I want to " So you see they are > > all thoughts which we clearly don't choose, and hence consequent > > actions also we don't really choose. We take " ourselves " to be such > > thoughts and miss out noticing the birth of actions! > > THis is not predetermined action of the past but rather > conditioning > > of our likes and dislikes makes us choose and we think we as an > > individual choose. > > There is no freedom of choice to a conditioned individual. If we > pay > > attention as to who really acts when we seem to choose to act, we > > begin to dis-identify from such a " person " within us, made up of > > likes and dislikes, controlling our life every moment. Then we > > take our true stand as Witnessing-Consciousness in which such > choices > > arise and actions are done without a doer thereof! Then true > freedom > > reigns, thus choosing to act whatever is right in the present > > situation for greater good! With such freedom of choice we may not > > go to restaurant or go and eat what is good for our health and > pocket! > > Namaskar... > > > > Pratap Bhatt > > > > > > -------------------------------- -- > > namasthe again, > > > > Based on your (Mr. Ramesh) different kind of question on the same > > subject, here is my humble opinion again. > > > > Your question is : > > " I went to a restaurant XYZ today at say 10 A.M. I ordered A, B, C, > > dishes I completely ate A and B.I left about 60% of C as it > contained > > too much chilies Was this trip to restaurant XYZ was predetermined > or > > did I have choice to visit or not to visit or visit to a different > > place. Visit at different time , order different dishes, etc etc > > etc. > > > > What I feel is: When you think of going to some XYZ place around 10 > > am., actually u think that u are able to successfully complete your > > plan of action. But even to reach the XYZ place, so many factors > are > > dependent. What made u choose XYZ and ZZZ place ? It only happend > > that your idea and SUPREME's idea is same in this context and you > > were able to reach there. What I am trying to say is: just before u > > start, if a friend calls u and plans for ZZZ place, would u have > gone > > there instead of XYZ in case if u do not have any particular > > preference? Also, when we are doing one particular action, we think > > and analyze only particular to oneself..(anyway thats the way to > > start self enquiry to one's own understanding)..but in a bigger > > picture with respect to entire world, u are and me are not > alone..we > > each are interrelated to one another. The reason you went to XYZ > > probably is u were supposed to be there at that time and that is all > > (we being humans may not always be able to see the subtle > experiences > > we and others go through whenever we are at one place). But again, > if > > any particular obvious situation occurs at XYZ at 10 am when u were > > there, for example, u met a childhood friend whom u have not have > > seen for past 30 or 40 years..then u will wonder as to what made u > be > > there at that time..? Based on that, you may question, then why > > should i plan or do anything if everything is already in God's > > hands? Even that thought also is because of that SUPREME ! and > > again, we do actions with the attitide of worship not because God > > wants u to worship but to keep our own mind calm... that too is > done > > only by God's grace. > > > > Our entire life we are driven by action, therefore, Gita > > says..whatever virtuous actions u do, surrender and OFFER that > action > > un to GOD. Going to a restaurant may be certain action, but u can > > offer that action of going also to the LORD. > > > > Do not worry, please continue your understanding and slowly we all > > understand God's grace by His own Grace. > > Regards, > > Bharathi > > -------------------------------- --- > - > > > > Ramesh is observer of events and he is able to keep him stationery. > > Events like going to restaurant, food, left over and whether or not > > he goes there again are visuals which includes Ramesh but Ramesh > can > > see it too, and is thus independent. Wonderful!!! First of all I > > pray to Ramesh for that he is not in KG but in Ph D in Bhagwat > Gita. > > > > When speed of thoughts (shutter of manah) is high, speed of > > observation is slowed and at speed infinity, the universe is stand > > still. And this gives clear undertanding by engaged detachment. > > Libnitz, Gandhi, Einstein, Newton were too a follower of Ramesh > and > > kept him statinery and observed the begining and end of universes. > > This is one of the very important point in Krishna's teachings. > > > > Bhagwat Gita says it most beautifully than any imagination and > > extreme of wonderful explanation. Kshetra - kshetragnya (Chapter > 13), > > and in Vibhuti are more than enough. > > > > Updrasta, anumanta ch .................. > > There are three components in observation a) observed (drashya) b) > > drashta (that who sees it) and c) updrasta (who shows from behind > > what is seen). Sri Krshna is saying that he is first as UPDRASTA > and > > as a knower of all fields, the entire univese is seen as running, > as > > a one network which is self regulated by its laws, but it cannot be > > known by observation to those with a given point of view, but a > > detached observation is independent of point of views, and thus, > > knows the network in complete form. This is the difference Ramesh > is > > now finding. Ramesh is seeing himself by himself. And by practicing > > it several years, he gets admitted to KG and knew Krishna a > UPDRASTA. > > When he will understand it and takes decision from detached > observer, > > he then goes to ANUMANTA then BHARTA then BHOKTA then MAHESWAR, > then > > PARMESHWAR. > > > > Mat Chiitah Madgatah praana ................. > > For Ramesh, this is a guideline of observation when in detached > > condition and is most terrific. Sri Krishna with profound love > gives > > a sort of warning before detachment is taught. Sri Krishna says to > > Arjun that you now see the network of universe as is on a drawing > > board (chitta, picture, drawing) and because you cannot hold your > > breath, take my breath to sustain this detached observation, and to > > not get lost into it, keep talking to me constantly so that you are > > aware of Me and not get lost in the good/bad dream. Read the > > sanskrit verse for the taste of truth yourelf... > > > > Less is more. Ramesh is KG student already and he now gets clue. > > > > Regards > > Krishna Gopal > > > > > > -------------------------------- --- > > Dear divine souls, > > > > to understand clearly the doer and the Witeness.. > > > > there is a story in Upnishadss.. > > two birds are sitting on a tree. > > one is eating the bitter fruit, > > and the other is watching > > We had to understand the difference between the Two.. > > the Actor (Mr. kuldip) is doer > > The Witenessing Consciousness who is Watching the world as Witness, > > is the Real ME.. > > Silently....we watch not our own thoughts that are only repetitions > > of Past, or planning for the Future, > > We have to come to the Present Moment, when mind is Awakened to the > > NEW Reality > > The SELF ! > > Living in this Self, is first step > > thanks. > > my humble parnaams > > e.child > > > > Kuldip Suri > > -------------------------------- --- > > > > > > -------------------------------- --- > - > > > > , " sadhak_insight " > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > > > Loving Divine, > > > Pranam. > > > In short, as long as we own the doership of action, we have no > > choice > > > but the moment we give up this doership, we are free! > > > humble regards, > > > always at Thy Holy Feet > > > Manjula Patel > > > > > > ------------------------------ --- > -- > > - > > > > > > Namasthe, mr.Ramesh,This is my humble understanding. > > > > > > Based on your below steps, yes, you are absolutely right about > first > > > two steps. Just modifying the first step like this: Our right is > > only > > > to perform our duty at that point of time which we feel our duty > > based > > > on circumstance or situation or any other reason we can think of > > > WITHOUT expecting/or worrying about anything in return for our > > action, > > > then that places in in the path of karma yoga( Gita ,3rd chapter). > > > > > > Once we are fixed in that kind of activity, slowly we will relaize > > > that ou mind becomes calm and clear. Then, slowly we understand > the > > > second step and eventually the third step too. > > > > > > We can only do what we think our duty is and become a witness for > > our > > > own actions as a observer and God takes you to the other two > > steps..do > > > not worry about it. > > > > > > Also, whenever we pray or act, only try to understand the starting > > > path based on ur enquiry..and do not worry of the destination at > > > all..You will definitely reach whatever you are intended to reach. > > > Just 'surrender' urself and all your actions onto God and only by > > HIS > > > grace can we even get the doubts and confusions. And unless we are > > > confused, there cannot be clarity and slowly our mind gets calmer > > and > > > calmer and we willl understand in our eart slowly by HIS grace. > > > > > > Regards, > > > Bharathi > > > ------------------------------ --- > -- > > - > > > > > > HARI OM, > > > All the below are from BG (Bagavath Geetha), Upanashids and > > scriptures. > > > Where ever it is mentioned PK = Prarabdha Karma. > > > > > > Sri MahaVishnu is the giver of the fruits of PK. This birth is > > > designed, packed and destined based on past actions (PK). Only > > freedom > > > we have in this birth to do the best actions (karmas), spend > maximum > > > time in devotion and worship of God (Bakthi), for divinity and > > liberation. > > > > > > NARAYANA- SRI KRISHNA- SHIVAYA NAMAHA. > > > > > > B.Sathyanarayan > > > ------------------------------ --- > -- > > -- > > > > > > Dear friends > > > > > > Your replies are very knowledgeable > > > > > > I am KG student of Gitaji > > > > > > I will reframe my question which is very simple. > > > > > > > > > > > > I went to a restaurant XYZ today at say 10 A.M. > > > > > > I ordered A, B, C, dishes > > > > > > I completely ate A and B. > > > > > > I left about 60% of C as it contained too much chilies > > > > > > > > > > > > Was this trip to restaurant XYZ was predetermined or did I have > > choice to > > > > > > Visit or not to visit or visit to a different place > > > > > > Visit at different time > > > > > > Order different dishes > > > > > > Finish different %age of dishes > > > > > > And so on i.e. > > > > > > Return at such and such time to my home/to other place etc. > > > > > > I would love to hear from sadhaks > > > > > > Parnam > > > > > > Ram Ram > > > > > > Ramesh Suri > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > > > , " sadhak_insight " > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear Sadhakas, Namaste! > > > > Do we have a choice over action or everything is predetermined? > > > > > > > > I am sorry its a little long explanation but perhaps worth it! > > > > If one takes a careful look at any action, one will see that > > action > > > > is triggered by a thought or a set of thoughts that precedes it. > > > > These thoughts stem from our acquired conditioning (Sanskaras) > > based > > > > on time and place we grow up. Conditioning dictates the way we > > > > feel, think and act as if we are programmed having some choices. > > > > This manifests in our behavior in the guise of desires, fears, > > > > beliefs, opinions etc., etc giving us a false sense of separate > > > > entity(ego) with choices. Such conditioning come from this and > > many > > > > lives of living in ignorance of our real self as Atman. Due to > > this > > > > we remain in bondage. Our actions are thus always predictable > and > > in > > > > accordance with our conditioned understanding(or > misunderstanding) > > > > over which we seem to have no control. In other words our > actions > > > > are reactions only. We don't choose thoughts, they come to us > from > > > > such sanskaras. E. G. We are walking and smell coffee, and a > > thought > > > > appears " let's have coffee " ! (I am conditioned to like it). We > > take > > > > action to have coffee or not, but think we have a choice. It's > not > > > > what actually happens though. If we can choose thoughts, why > > cannot > > > > we choose always happy or no thoughts? We cannot. So actions > > > > triggered in this way has no freedom or choice. Therefore, as > long > > > > as we are under the spell of such ignorance, we don't have > freedom > > > > or choice to act or not act. We just think we have choice to > act > > > > because we don't notice who really acts, us or the > conditioning. > > The > > > > real " us " is Atman, total freedom! Thus, it just looks as if > > > > everything is predetermined! > > > > This doesn't mean we cannot have choices to act. We do have the > > > > choice, just one. This is our first or last choice, and that is > to > > > > dis-identify from our conditioning meaning freedom from all > > > > conditioning and abide as Atman, our True Self! This freedom is > > > > Intelligence or God acting through us and He/She has freedom at > > > > every momnet, not predetermined in the past. If we don't > exercise > > > > this one and the last freedom God has given uncondionally to > all > > of > > > > us, we don't have freedom to act at all. > > > > Namaskars! Pratap > > > > > > > > ---------------------------- --- > -- > > --- > > > > Loving Divine, > > > > Pranam. Thanks, very good question. > > > > > > > > Pandavas represent good and Kauravas represent bad qualities > > within > > > > us. There is constant struggle between these two within us > so... > > > > > > > > when one makes a firm resolve or accepts to perform their duties > > > > without any expectations (good quality), one is released from > lot > > of > > > > unnecessary tensions, worries, unpleasantness, and conflicts > (bad > > > > qualities). It leads into cultivating seva (good) and when > there > > is > > > > no expectation, greed / anger / jealousy / attachments, etc. > (bad) > > > > are wiped out automatically. But, to an ignorant/deluded > > spiritual > > > > aspirant, it appears that they have to kill their bad qualities > > and > > > > he/she continues to make efforts in doing so. Bhagwan is > saying > > it > > > > is not so... When our focus is on good, the bad automatically > > gets > > > > wiped out. Of course, it takes some effort for us to remain > good > > > > initially until it becomes our nature as bad also wants to > remain > > > > established with its dominance over us. But when we don't give > in > > > > to bad and stick to good, bad automatically > weakens/curbed/wiped > > out. > > > > > > > > Please look within while reading Gitaji. We are the cause of > our > > > > own bondage and freedom. Arjuna got attached seeing his family > > > > members / relatives in the war field instead of enemies. He was > > > > ready to run away from the war. With the improved > understanding > > he > > > > became detached and was ready to perform his duty. With the ego > > > > sense present he became concerned that how would they enjoy the > > > > pleasure of 3 worlds if rest of his family is not there? But > when > > > > true knowledge dawns, such fear has no place. Our destiny is > in > > our > > > > own hand. The world we see is our own creation and it is in > our > > own > > > > hand to change or destroy it. Like a child, playing with sand > > > > creates or destroys a palace and still enjoys the play because > he > > is > > > > not attached. Like in dream we create the whole world that > only > > we > > > > know - no matter how much we try to explain our dream, it is > still > > > > only we know what it was! So yes, we do have a choice - to > > perform > > > > any action with the doership of action (ego & attachment - bad > > > > quality) and thus enjoy/suffer the consequences of it or > > performing > > > > action according to dharma and knowing that indriyas are doing > > their > > > > job (BG 5:9) so without attachment (good quality), attain the > > higher > > > > self and thus let the so called good/bad not impact us. When > > > > doership is present, everything matters, when it is not there at > > > > all, nothing what so ever matters!!! > > > > > > > > humble regards, > > > > always at Thy Holy Feet > > > > > > > > Manjula Patel > > > > ---------------------------- --- > -- > > --- > > > > > > > > Interesting question........ > > > > > > > > answer lies in understanding " who are you? " and understanding > the > > > > Leela - grand play > > > > Choice is to remain involved or be above..... > > > > > > > > Let it be a rigorous excercise till you get the answer > > > > not in words but in experience......... > > > > Sushil Jain > > > > > > > > ---------------------------- --- > -- > > --- > > > > Yes, God has betowed upon us VIVEK inner instinct for right & > > wrong. > > > > If we follow it with pure heart we will get it rite. > > > > > > > > Raja Gurdasani. > > > > > > > > ---------------------------- --- > -- > > --- > > > > > > > > > > > > , " sadhak_insight " > > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Ram Ram > > > > > > > > > > This is my first question to clear my doubt on Gita > > > > > > > > > > Lord Krishna says > > > > > > > > > > 1) Your right is only to perform your duty (to act, to work, > > karma) > > > > > > > > > > 2) Even if you do not kill Kaurvas they are already destined > to > > be > > > > > dead. You are only an instrument (Nimit i.e. apparent karta). > > > > > > > > > > 3) From above, I tend to understand that every event is pre- > > > > destined > > > > > by Lord and we are only instruments, i.e. apparent karta. > > > > > > > > > > Then do we have choice of action (karma, duty)? > > > > > > > > > > Ram Ram > > > > > > > > > > Ramesh Suri > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------- --- > -- > > --- > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > FROM THE MODERATOR > > > > > > > > > > The following are the guidelines for Gita-Talk discussions. > > > > > > > > > > GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: > > > > > 1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify their > doubts > > > > > related to Gitaji shalokas. Therefore, responses which further > > > > > clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be posted. > > > > > 2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures > to > > > > > substantiate your response. > > > > > 3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to > the > > > > > extent that they further help in understanding the Gita > shlokas > > > > > 4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, > respecting > > > > > sadhaka's time. > > > > > 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only. > > > > > 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other > > > > > organizations. > > > > > 7. Kindly do not include your personal information such as > phone > > > > > number, address etc. > > > > > 8. Please do not address the response to a particular > individual > > > > > since the message is going to the entire group. > > > > > 9. Due to the large readership, all responses may not be > posted. > > > > > 10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if > > > > content > > > > > is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the group. > > > > > 11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, > youth, > > > > > westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use to > > > > Sanskrit > > > > > words only, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit > > > > bracketed > > > > > wherever possible. > > > > > > > > > > MODERATOR > > > > > Ram Ram > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 3, 2008 Report Share Posted May 3, 2008 Dear Sadhak, Do we have choice of action ? Wonderful question. Lets evaluate it both ways - Yes and No too and you decide for yourself what is suitable for you. Answer YES-------------- Yes, God has given me intelligence, a strong body , a healthy mind, I can do this and that , I can rule the entire world, why not ? This is true, we have the strength, the capabilities to do. Then why we don't succeed ? why we fail to pursue our desires ? Why ? Simply because we do not follow the path of KARMA YOGA wholeheartedly. (Gitaji-Chapter 3.) My Krishna says in Gitaji- Karmanye vadhikaraste , ma faleshu kadachana....We have right to do our duty only, we have no right over the fruit of our action. That simply means there is no harm in desiring anything and setting high goals and working towards it but the main reason of our being a failure is attachment to our desire, insisting on a certain outcome,ego of doership... So what is the solution ? Krishna says- Sarve Dharma paritjya mamek sharanam vrij...... Just surrender to HIM. Everything...Your desires, your goals, your actions, your plans, your results, your every single breath, and see the miracles, watch HIS LEELA and be free. Do not insist on anything, accept HIS PLAN, surrender yours. Answer 2---NO............................................. No, I have no strength at all, I am just a puppet in HIS hands, dancing on HIS FINGERTIPS. Everything happens as per HIS will,I am nothing, I am nothing............. This is true too. This so called " I " actually does not exist. We all are part of HIS DIVINE PLAY, and everything is happening according to HIS WILL only. Our desires, our actions, our fruits, everything, is only HIS WILL. You are asking question, and I am answering it, this is HIS will too. And actually who is asking ? Only My Krishna is asking , who is answering ? Only my Krishna is answering. So the simplest way is to just surrender everything to HIM and be free. This path is called sharanagati (taking refuge) in BHAKTI YOGA. Please meditate, and contemplate on every word of Gitaji, the answer will come to you automatically, With lots of love, A sadhika (Sadhna Karigar) -- , " sadhak_insight " <sadhak_insight wrote: > > Yes you do have choice of action. You can use both the hands to pray > Bagavan. Same hands to kill someone. Worship and Devotion (Bakthi) > by hands gives DAYA (compassion) from God. > Hands misused gives Bramahathi Dosa. For all actions there is fruit > (phala). Choice is yours. The phala (fruit) can be later part of > life or in the next birth. In Veda, it is said that by the act of > abusing a person, we take part in his sins. By serving, doing > charity (Dana), righteousness (Dharma) etc we get spiritual merits ( > Puniyas) which results in a luxurious and good future life. " So > engage in devotion and worship (bhajan) on Govinda to elevate > yourself " says Bajagovindam script. > > B.Sathyanarayan > > > - - > , " sadhak_insight " > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > Dear Sadhakas, Namaste! > > > > I want to address questions raised by Sarvottamji, which, I think, > > are consistent with Pujya Swamiji's Sadhak Sanjeevanee ! However, > it > > is my humble request to have an open mind for what you read or > hear > > anywhere as we are after Truth and Truth can come from all > directions > > to open mind! Notice one thing though: to be able to say answers > are > > not consistent, one has to already know the answers given in > > Sanjeevanee, right? > > > > Answers of first four are: It is Truth of What we are, that > thinks, > > decides, and does out of the freedom of choice It has! That Truth > we > > are, somehow, gets identified as 'my' body and all that 'I know' > > through mind, and mistakes it as real I or Ego. This is ignorance > of > > myself - ego I, who thinks it is I who decides, does and has free > > will to make a choice. Such limited entity cannot have Freedom we > > are interested in here! Ego is the name for Bondage, which is > outcome > > of ignorance! TO answer no 5, True WHO is never bound, and Ego is > > never free by its definition. As an Individual I have only one > > freedom, to say yes or no to Consciousness-God and be eternally > free > > or in Bondage until ...... > > > > Pratap Bhatt > > > > Upon realizing the Truth being One's true and only SELF, one gets > all > > kinds of intimations from Truth to act through mind-body > instrument. > > Before realization, mind was boss, and now the same mind upon > seeing > > the truth, becomes the servant executor of Truth. This Truth is > > Intelligence called God or Atman, meaning One Whole Consciousness > > which is Absolute Existence, One behind all our individual > existences! > > > > -------------------------------- -- > > > > Ek hi hai.......................... > > Ek ki Leela hai................ > > > > (There is only One; It is the Divine Play of That One) > > > > Sushil Jain > > -------------------------------- -- > - > > > > we are all directed already. mind is the answer to the six > > questions. That mind is governed by buddhi the intelligence which > is > > the god. > > thererefore we say vasudevassarvam (All is God) and hence > submission > > including ego ensures freedom and happiness. > > > > vasanat vasudevasya vasitam te jagatrayam sarvabhuta nivossosi > > vasudeva namostute. > > one mantra kamokarshit manyurakarshitnamonamah. > > kamah karoti naham karomi kamah karta naham karta esa kama kamaaya > > svaha. > > manaeva karanam bandha mokshayoh. tena vina na kimapi pracalati. > > the term kimapi draws our attention. > > > > best we should enjoy the sense ydyat karma karomi tattadakhilam > > sambho tavaradhanam as sankara advvise. > > > > Krishna too teaches to regulate mind through gita and this was > > realised by arjuna and hence he agreed to do what is wanted by the > > Lord. > > subham > > prabhakar > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > , " sadhak_insight " > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > > > Respected Sadhakas! > > > " Do we have choice of action? " > > > Answers to the following questions are requested earnestly -: > > > 1. Who thinks? > > > 2. Who does? > > > 3. Who decides? > > > 4. Who has choice of action? > > > 5. When this 'Who' is bonded and when freed? > > > 6. How does a doer not have doership? > > > Please be precise and authenticated with Sadhak Sanjeevanee only. > > > Thanks in advance for this trouble taken for me. > > > Sincerely, > > > Sarvottam Varma > > > ------------------------------ -- > --- > > - > > > Dear Sadhakas, Namaste! > > > > > > I am addressing Rameshji's questions! > > > When one goes to restaurant, either one feels hungry or some > > thought > > > appears in the mind due to memory of previous tastes etc. In > both > > or > > > all such cases thoughts triggered the action to eat. Such thought > > (s) > > > is deciding thought over which one has no control.(if we can > choose > > > thoughts, why not choose only happy thoughts or think about God > > > continuously which is not possible, right?) > > > What generally happens is that sense organ or a combination of > > sense > > > organs come into contact with their respective objects(hearing > > > contacts sound, sight contacts forms, skin creates tectile > > sensations > > > etc.) and past memory of pleasurable experiences create a desire > to > > > act. Where is the choice on the part of an individual other > than > > to > > > execute the command of such a powerful boss? So either hunger in > > > this case and/or senses(indriyas) with the help of mind > instigated > > > the action. When action is taken another thought arises: " I have > a > > > choice to eat such and such any time I want to " So you see they > are > > > all thoughts which we clearly don't choose, and hence consequent > > > actions also we don't really choose. We take " ourselves " to be > such > > > thoughts and miss out noticing the birth of actions! > > > THis is not predetermined action of the past but rather > > conditioning > > > of our likes and dislikes makes us choose and we think we as an > > > individual choose. > > > There is no freedom of choice to a conditioned individual. If we > > pay > > > attention as to who really acts when we seem to choose to act, > we > > > begin to dis-identify from such a " person " within us, made up of > > > likes and dislikes, controlling our life every moment. Then we > > > take our true stand as Witnessing-Consciousness in which such > > choices > > > arise and actions are done without a doer thereof! Then true > > freedom > > > reigns, thus choosing to act whatever is right in the present > > > situation for greater good! With such freedom of choice we may > not > > > go to restaurant or go and eat what is good for our health and > > pocket! > > > Namaskar... > > > > > > Pratap Bhatt > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ -- > -- > > > namasthe again, > > > > > > Based on your (Mr. Ramesh) different kind of question on the > same > > > subject, here is my humble opinion again. > > > > > > Your question is : > > > " I went to a restaurant XYZ today at say 10 A.M. I ordered A, B, > C, > > > dishes I completely ate A and B.I left about 60% of C as it > > contained > > > too much chilies Was this trip to restaurant XYZ was > predetermined > > or > > > did I have choice to visit or not to visit or visit to a > different > > > place. Visit at different time , order different dishes, etc etc > > > etc. > > > > > > What I feel is: When you think of going to some XYZ place around > 10 > > > am., actually u think that u are able to successfully complete > your > > > plan of action. But even to reach the XYZ place, so many factors > > are > > > dependent. What made u choose XYZ and ZZZ place ? It only > happend > > > that your idea and SUPREME's idea is same in this context and > you > > > were able to reach there. What I am trying to say is: just > before u > > > start, if a friend calls u and plans for ZZZ place, would u have > > gone > > > there instead of XYZ in case if u do not have any particular > > > preference? Also, when we are doing one particular action, we > think > > > and analyze only particular to oneself..(anyway thats the way to > > > start self enquiry to one's own understanding)..but in a bigger > > > picture with respect to entire world, u are and me are not > > alone..we > > > each are interrelated to one another. The reason you went to XYZ > > > probably is u were supposed to be there at that time and that is > all > > > (we being humans may not always be able to see the subtle > > experiences > > > we and others go through whenever we are at one place). But > again, > > if > > > any particular obvious situation occurs at XYZ at 10 am when u > were > > > there, for example, u met a childhood friend whom u have not > have > > > seen for past 30 or 40 years..then u will wonder as to what made > u > > be > > > there at that time..? Based on that, you may question, then why > > > should i plan or do anything if everything is already in God's > > > hands? Even that thought also is because of that SUPREME ! and > > > again, we do actions with the attitide of worship not because > God > > > wants u to worship but to keep our own mind calm... that too is > > done > > > only by God's grace. > > > > > > Our entire life we are driven by action, therefore, Gita > > > says..whatever virtuous actions u do, surrender and OFFER that > > action > > > un to GOD. Going to a restaurant may be certain action, but u > can > > > offer that action of going also to the LORD. > > > > > > Do not worry, please continue your understanding and slowly we > all > > > understand God's grace by His own Grace. > > > Regards, > > > Bharathi > > > ------------------------------ -- > --- > > - > > > > > > Ramesh is observer of events and he is able to keep him > stationery. > > > Events like going to restaurant, food, left over and whether or > not > > > he goes there again are visuals which includes Ramesh but Ramesh > > can > > > see it too, and is thus independent. Wonderful!!! First of all > I > > > pray to Ramesh for that he is not in KG but in Ph D in Bhagwat > > Gita. > > > > > > When speed of thoughts (shutter of manah) is high, speed of > > > observation is slowed and at speed infinity, the universe is > stand > > > still. And this gives clear undertanding by engaged detachment. > > > Libnitz, Gandhi, Einstein, Newton were too a follower of Ramesh > > and > > > kept him statinery and observed the begining and end of > universes. > > > This is one of the very important point in Krishna's teachings. > > > > > > Bhagwat Gita says it most beautifully than any imagination and > > > extreme of wonderful explanation. Kshetra - kshetragnya (Chapter > > 13), > > > and in Vibhuti are more than enough. > > > > > > Updrasta, anumanta ch .................. > > > There are three components in observation a) observed (drashya) > b) > > > drashta (that who sees it) and c) updrasta (who shows from > behind > > > what is seen). Sri Krshna is saying that he is first as UPDRASTA > > and > > > as a knower of all fields, the entire univese is seen as > running, > > as > > > a one network which is self regulated by its laws, but it cannot > be > > > known by observation to those with a given point of view, but a > > > detached observation is independent of point of views, and thus, > > > knows the network in complete form. This is the difference > Ramesh > > is > > > now finding. Ramesh is seeing himself by himself. And by > practicing > > > it several years, he gets admitted to KG and knew Krishna a > > UPDRASTA. > > > When he will understand it and takes decision from detached > > observer, > > > he then goes to ANUMANTA then BHARTA then BHOKTA then MAHESWAR, > > then > > > PARMESHWAR. > > > > > > Mat Chiitah Madgatah praana ................. > > > For Ramesh, this is a guideline of observation when in detached > > > condition and is most terrific. Sri Krishna with profound love > > gives > > > a sort of warning before detachment is taught. Sri Krishna says > to > > > Arjun that you now see the network of universe as is on a > drawing > > > board (chitta, picture, drawing) and because you cannot hold > your > > > breath, take my breath to sustain this detached observation, and > to > > > not get lost into it, keep talking to me constantly so that you > are > > > aware of Me and not get lost in the good/bad dream. Read the > > > sanskrit verse for the taste of truth yourelf... > > > > > > Less is more. Ramesh is KG student already and he now gets clue. > > > > > > Regards > > > Krishna Gopal > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ -- > --- > > > Dear divine souls, > > > > > > to understand clearly the doer and the Witeness.. > > > > > > there is a story in Upnishadss.. > > > two birds are sitting on a tree. > > > one is eating the bitter fruit, > > > and the other is watching > > > We had to understand the difference between the Two.. > > > the Actor (Mr. kuldip) is doer > > > The Witenessing Consciousness who is Watching the world as > Witness, > > > is the Real ME.. > > > Silently....we watch not our own thoughts that are only > repetitions > > > of Past, or planning for the Future, > > > We have to come to the Present Moment, when mind is Awakened to > the > > > NEW Reality > > > The SELF ! > > > Living in this Self, is first step > > > thanks. > > > my humble parnaams > > > e.child > > > > > > Kuldip Suri > > > ------------------------------ -- > --- > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ -- > --- > > - > > > > > > , " sadhak_insight " > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Loving Divine, > > > > Pranam. > > > > In short, as long as we own the doership of action, we have no > > > choice > > > > but the moment we give up this doership, we are free! > > > > humble regards, > > > > always at Thy Holy Feet > > > > Manjula Patel > > > > > > > > ---------------------------- -- > --- > > -- > > > - > > > > > > > > Namasthe, mr.Ramesh,This is my humble understanding. > > > > > > > > Based on your below steps, yes, you are absolutely right about > > first > > > > two steps. Just modifying the first step like this: Our right > is > > > only > > > > to perform our duty at that point of time which we feel our > duty > > > based > > > > on circumstance or situation or any other reason we can think > of > > > > WITHOUT expecting/or worrying about anything in return for our > > > action, > > > > then that places in in the path of karma yoga( Gita ,3rd > chapter). > > > > > > > > Once we are fixed in that kind of activity, slowly we will > relaize > > > > that ou mind becomes calm and clear. Then, slowly we > understand > > the > > > > second step and eventually the third step too. > > > > > > > > We can only do what we think our duty is and become a witness > for > > > our > > > > own actions as a observer and God takes you to the other two > > > steps..do > > > > not worry about it. > > > > > > > > Also, whenever we pray or act, only try to understand the > starting > > > > path based on ur enquiry..and do not worry of the destination > at > > > > all..You will definitely reach whatever you are intended to > reach. > > > > Just 'surrender' urself and all your actions onto God and only > by > > > HIS > > > > grace can we even get the doubts and confusions. And unless we > are > > > > confused, there cannot be clarity and slowly our mind gets > calmer > > > and > > > > calmer and we willl understand in our eart slowly by HIS grace. > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > Bharathi > > > > ---------------------------- -- > --- > > -- > > > - > > > > > > > > HARI OM, > > > > All the below are from BG (Bagavath Geetha), Upanashids and > > > scriptures. > > > > Where ever it is mentioned PK = Prarabdha Karma. > > > > > > > > Sri MahaVishnu is the giver of the fruits of PK. This birth is > > > > designed, packed and destined based on past actions (PK). Only > > > freedom > > > > we have in this birth to do the best actions (karmas), spend > > maximum > > > > time in devotion and worship of God (Bakthi), for divinity and > > > liberation. > > > > > > > > NARAYANA- SRI KRISHNA- SHIVAYA NAMAHA. > > > > > > > > B.Sathyanarayan > > > > ---------------------------- -- > --- > > -- > > > -- > > > > > > > > Dear friends > > > > > > > > Your replies are very knowledgeable > > > > > > > > I am KG student of Gitaji > > > > > > > > I will reframe my question which is very simple. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I went to a restaurant XYZ today at say 10 A.M. > > > > > > > > I ordered A, B, C, dishes > > > > > > > > I completely ate A and B. > > > > > > > > I left about 60% of C as it contained too much chilies > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Was this trip to restaurant XYZ was predetermined or did I > have > > > choice to > > > > > > > > Visit or not to visit or visit to a different place > > > > > > > > Visit at different time > > > > > > > > Order different dishes > > > > > > > > Finish different %age of dishes > > > > > > > > And so on i.e. > > > > > > > > Return at such and such time to my home/to other place etc. > > > > > > > > I would love to hear from sadhaks > > > > > > > > Parnam > > > > > > > > Ram Ram > > > > > > > > Ramesh Suri > > > > > > > > ---------------------------- -- > > > > > > > > , " sadhak_insight " > > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Dear Sadhakas, Namaste! > > > > > Do we have a choice over action or everything is > predetermined? > > > > > > > > > > I am sorry its a little long explanation but perhaps worth > it! > > > > > If one takes a careful look at any action, one will see that > > > action > > > > > is triggered by a thought or a set of thoughts that precedes > it. > > > > > These thoughts stem from our acquired conditioning > (Sanskaras) > > > based > > > > > on time and place we grow up. Conditioning dictates the way > we > > > > > feel, think and act as if we are programmed having some > choices. > > > > > This manifests in our behavior in the guise of desires, > fears, > > > > > beliefs, opinions etc., etc giving us a false sense of > separate > > > > > entity(ego) with choices. Such conditioning come from this > and > > > many > > > > > lives of living in ignorance of our real self as Atman. Due > to > > > this > > > > > we remain in bondage. Our actions are thus always > predictable > > and > > > in > > > > > accordance with our conditioned understanding(or > > misunderstanding) > > > > > over which we seem to have no control. In other words our > > actions > > > > > are reactions only. We don't choose thoughts, they come to > us > > from > > > > > such sanskaras. E. G. We are walking and smell coffee, and a > > > thought > > > > > appears " let's have coffee " ! (I am conditioned to like it). > We > > > take > > > > > action to have coffee or not, but think we have a choice. > It's > > not > > > > > what actually happens though. If we can choose thoughts, why > > > cannot > > > > > we choose always happy or no thoughts? We cannot. So actions > > > > > triggered in this way has no freedom or choice. Therefore, > as > > long > > > > > as we are under the spell of such ignorance, we don't have > > freedom > > > > > or choice to act or not act. We just think we have choice > to > > act > > > > > because we don't notice who really acts, us or the > > conditioning. > > > The > > > > > real " us " is Atman, total freedom! Thus, it just looks as if > > > > > everything is predetermined! > > > > > This doesn't mean we cannot have choices to act. We do have > the > > > > > choice, just one. This is our first or last choice, and that > is > > to > > > > > dis-identify from our conditioning meaning freedom from all > > > > > conditioning and abide as Atman, our True Self! This freedom > is > > > > > Intelligence or God acting through us and He/She has freedom > at > > > > > every momnet, not predetermined in the past. If we don't > > exercise > > > > > this one and the last freedom God has given uncondionally to > > all > > > of > > > > > us, we don't have freedom to act at all. > > > > > Namaskars! Pratap > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------- -- > --- > > -- > > > --- > > > > > Loving Divine, > > > > > Pranam. Thanks, very good question. > > > > > > > > > > Pandavas represent good and Kauravas represent bad qualities > > > within > > > > > us. There is constant struggle between these two within us > > so... > > > > > > > > > > when one makes a firm resolve or accepts to perform their > duties > > > > > without any expectations (good quality), one is released > from > > lot > > > of > > > > > unnecessary tensions, worries, unpleasantness, and conflicts > > (bad > > > > > qualities). It leads into cultivating seva (good) and when > > there > > > is > > > > > no expectation, greed / anger / jealousy / attachments, etc. > > (bad) > > > > > are wiped out automatically. But, to an ignorant/deluded > > > spiritual > > > > > aspirant, it appears that they have to kill their bad > qualities > > > and > > > > > he/she continues to make efforts in doing so. Bhagwan is > > saying > > > it > > > > > is not so... When our focus is on good, the bad > automatically > > > gets > > > > > wiped out. Of course, it takes some effort for us to remain > > good > > > > > initially until it becomes our nature as bad also wants to > > remain > > > > > established with its dominance over us. But when we don't > give > > in > > > > > to bad and stick to good, bad automatically > > weakens/curbed/wiped > > > out. > > > > > > > > > > Please look within while reading Gitaji. We are the cause > of > > our > > > > > own bondage and freedom. Arjuna got attached seeing his > family > > > > > members / relatives in the war field instead of enemies. He > was > > > > > ready to run away from the war. With the improved > > understanding > > > he > > > > > became detached and was ready to perform his duty. With the > ego > > > > > sense present he became concerned that how would they enjoy > the > > > > > pleasure of 3 worlds if rest of his family is not there? > But > > when > > > > > true knowledge dawns, such fear has no place. Our destiny > is > > in > > > our > > > > > own hand. The world we see is our own creation and it is in > > our > > > own > > > > > hand to change or destroy it. Like a child, playing with > sand > > > > > creates or destroys a palace and still enjoys the play > because > > he > > > is > > > > > not attached. Like in dream we create the whole world that > > only > > > we > > > > > know - no matter how much we try to explain our dream, it is > > still > > > > > only we know what it was! So yes, we do have a choice - to > > > perform > > > > > any action with the doership of action (ego & attachment - > bad > > > > > quality) and thus enjoy/suffer the consequences of it or > > > performing > > > > > action according to dharma and knowing that indriyas are > doing > > > their > > > > > job (BG 5:9) so without attachment (good quality), attain > the > > > higher > > > > > self and thus let the so called good/bad not impact us. When > > > > > doership is present, everything matters, when it is not > there at > > > > > all, nothing what so ever matters!!! > > > > > > > > > > humble regards, > > > > > always at Thy Holy Feet > > > > > > > > > > Manjula Patel > > > > > -------------------------- -- > --- > > -- > > > --- > > > > > > > > > > Interesting question........ > > > > > > > > > > answer lies in understanding " who are you? " and > understanding > > the > > > > > Leela - grand play > > > > > Choice is to remain involved or be above..... > > > > > > > > > > Let it be a rigorous excercise till you get the answer > > > > > not in words but in experience......... > > > > > Sushil Jain > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------- -- > --- > > -- > > > --- > > > > > Yes, God has betowed upon us VIVEK inner instinct for right > & > > > wrong. > > > > > If we follow it with pure heart we will get it rite. > > > > > > > > > > Raja Gurdasani. > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------- -- > --- > > -- > > > --- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " sadhak_insight " > > > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Ram Ram > > > > > > > > > > > > This is my first question to clear my doubt on Gita > > > > > > > > > > > > Lord Krishna says > > > > > > > > > > > > 1) Your right is only to perform your duty (to act, to > work, > > > karma) > > > > > > > > > > > > 2) Even if you do not kill Kaurvas they are already > destined > > to > > > be > > > > > > dead. You are only an instrument (Nimit i.e. apparent > karta). > > > > > > > > > > > > 3) From above, I tend to understand that every event is > pre- > > > > > destined > > > > > > by Lord and we are only instruments, i.e. apparent karta. > > > > > > > > > > > > Then do we have choice of action (karma, duty)? > > > > > > > > > > > > Ram Ram > > > > > > > > > > > > Ramesh Suri > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------ -- > --- > > -- > > > --- > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > > > FROM THE MODERATOR > > > > > > > > > > > > The following are the guidelines for Gita-Talk discussions. > > > > > > > > > > > > GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: > > > > > > 1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify their > > doubts > > > > > > related to Gitaji shalokas. Therefore, responses which > further > > > > > > clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be posted. > > > > > > 2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other > scriptures > > to > > > > > > substantiate your response. > > > > > > 3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. > to > > the > > > > > > extent that they further help in understanding the Gita > > shlokas > > > > > > 4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, > > respecting > > > > > > sadhaka's time. > > > > > > 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only. > > > > > > 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other > > > > > > organizations. > > > > > > 7. Kindly do not include your personal information such as > > phone > > > > > > number, address etc. > > > > > > 8. Please do not address the response to a particular > > individual > > > > > > since the message is going to the entire group. > > > > > > 9. Due to the large readership, all responses may not be > > posted. > > > > > > 10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if > > > > > content > > > > > > is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the > group. > > > > > > 11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, > > youth, > > > > > > westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use to > > > > > Sanskrit > > > > > > words only, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit > > > > > bracketed > > > > > > wherever possible. > > > > > > > > > > > > MODERATOR > > > > > > Ram Ram > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.