Which is powerful - Bhakthi or Bhagawan (God) ?

[Guest guest]

Dear Sadhak friends,

 

Pranaams to you all,

 

I think this topic is within the constitution of this group. If so,

May we start discussing this issue that is keeping me curious for

quite some time.

 

I feel privileged and blessed to come across some excellent articles

through this divine platform in the past. I am not an exponent or

a truely enlightened individual. But I am keen to come to a

logical conclusion in this subject at the earliest.

 

I have been experiencing on a personal level that Bhakthi at times

compels God to pay attention to my prayers and reply back by way of

little incidents and developments that are not always as I wished to

experience. I continue to practise Bhakthi in the simplistic manner

possible without exxageration or lavishness. But I always feel that

whatever I did indadequate and should have done it better.

 

I humbly look upon to the learned sadhaks who may wish to bring

forward their views more formally for the better enlightenment of

the fellow sadhaks.

 

May God Bless you all

 

Dharmarajaiyer

 

 

GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES:

1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify their doubts

related to Gitaji shalokas. Therefore, responses which further

clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be posted.

2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to

substantiate your response.

3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the

extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas

4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting

sadhaka's time.

5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only.

6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other

organizations.

7. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone

number, address etc.

8. Please do not address the response to a particular individual

since the message is going to the entire group.

9. Due to the large readership, all responses may not be posted.

10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if content

is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the group.

11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth,

westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use to Sanskrit

words only, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit bracketed

wherever possible.

 

MODERATOR

Ram Ram

[Guest guest]

Dear Sadhak,

 

This confusion is commonly felt amongst many spiritual seekers. If

we see difference between Bhakti, Bhagwan and Bhakta, we neither

know ourselves (the Bhakta under one's own claim), nor The Bhagwan

and never the Bhakti. Not seeking difference between the God and

ourselves is Bhakti. Then how can it be different from the seeker or

the sought. In Bhakti, the seeker, the sought as well as the seeking

process are all unified to The Unity. In such case, how can a Bhakta

have any expectation? .. and from whom? Therefore, your statement

that " I am waiting for a reply for my prayer " is self contradictory.

Bhakti does not need a reply ... IT IS THE REPLY BY ITSELF!

 

Ishopanishad:

 

Yastu sarvani bhutani aatmanyevanupashyate

Sarvabhuteshu chaatmanam tato na vjugupsate.

 

Bhakti enables us to mitigate differences between us and the world.

One who sees oneself in everything is obviously The Everything - The

God - as such. Thence, how can he have any room for doubts and

disappointments. The presence of the doubts and disappointments are

the symptomes of the lack of Bhakti. To notice that is wonderful -

we get a chance to correct ourselves.

 

Yastu sarvani bhutani aatmaivabhudvijanatah

Tatra ko mohah kah shokah ekatvamanupashyatah

 

One who has attained The Unity alone is worthy of being praised as a

Bhakta as he cannot see anything other than himself in everything.

Then how can he lack anything in life? Then how can the emotional

instability enter him in terms of sadness and happiness. Bhakti

enables us to balance ourselves at peace perpetually. Presence of

emotions indicates lack of peace. Lack of peace indicates lack of

Bhakti. Again, it is wonderful to notice that since we get an

opportunity to correct ourselves.

 

Respects.

 

Naga Narayana.

 

 

--

Your experience is reverential. Bhakti is like gravitation of earth

and it pulls every object to it but if the object is tied up with

something, pulling force of earth becomes ineffective. God is

powerful as earth but because we are detached with existing

illusions and thus cannot have an experience of pull of the god.

Bhakti is like gravitation of the earth and not a property of

object. This means, Sri Krishna is that gravitational pull, and not

us. Our objective should be only to surrender to the pull of bhakti

of Sri Krishna, and not get afraid of loosing attachment with things

that hold us.

 

I want to repeat in heart this senario of Krishna trying to catch

us, but we have many excuses of knowledge, work and penance. I write

in English what Sri Krishna says Himself in chapter 5

 

Tapasibhyo dhiko yogi, zyanibhyopi matodikah

karmabhyasi dhiko yogi, tasmat yogi bhavarjuna

 

Be in a senario that Sri Krishna is 'nana' or maternal grand father,

His daughter is the prakriti and we all are the child of prakriti

and in a way, grand child of Sri Krishna. Like all children, we too

are close to 'nana' and try to please Him by hard work (tapah), by

rigrous studies (zyana) and by doing work (karma) but 'nana' Sri

Krishna says do nothng, just come to me. Nothing is necessary to

qualify love our own 'nana'. He is desperate and we like children

display our skill and knowledge to Him, unnecesarily.

 

Bhakti is not our responsibility, our responsibility is just not

have defenses and worries for ourselves. If we worry for ourselves

and defenses and mind is engaged in calculations, pull of Sri

Krishna is ineffective. Bhagwat Gita is not a prayer book, it is not

a book promoting dogmas and business of temples, flowers,

loudspeakers and offering sweets to idols and TV serials. It is

unfortunate that it is hijacked by religious sects calling in Hindu

and so on, and diverting minds from bhakti as devotion to

independent self nature.

 

Bhakti is being in state of non defense, and non expectation and

non pleasing/ unpleasing to anyone real or imaginary. This silence

and awareness and unattached observation shows how Sri Krishna

quickly comes to you. Just see how you get saved from trouble when

did not expected it. This is Bhakti. Bhakti = non defense.

 

Regards

K G

Krishna Gopal

 

---

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

 

Bhakthi is generally understood as total Devotion to God. God in

some forms is more suitable at least in the beginning so the mind

can focus. My understanding is that it is essential to have total,

unbroken, and Unconditional Trust in God that whatever happens or

doesn't happen is alright the way it unfolds.

As one worships, does japas, chants mantras, does meditation, or

goes to temples or whatever one does in earnest, there is a humility

and surrender feelings already present. Humility and surrender makes

one egoless-free of me sense, and allows Bhagwan who is already

hiding behind ego waiting to step in and change devotee's mind to

see correctly, and respond appropriately in the midst of adverse

situations.

(Mahabharata war was such a response on the part of

Pandavas!)

In such a state, mind becomes desireless, carefree, peaceful,

satisfied, and ultimately fulfiled from within that nothing from

outside is needed. However, material needs of such a devotee is

provided through adopting to his/her vyavsayas(job engaged in). It is

never his/her problem. It is God who intervenes through spiritual

laws, called miracles! Krishna affirms this in Gita(9:22) " He(God-

Supreme Consciousness) provides necessities and security for

such devout Bhaktas " .

I am humbled by such small miracles on a personal level!

Bhakta, Bhakti and Bhagwan are all but one Experience of fulfilment

(being purna in oneself as one is) in the ultimate sense. True

bhakti descends so to speak, when the understanding of God-

Consciousness as Reality of Devotee and devotion dawns!

Namaskars ... Pratap Bhatt

 

 

Dear Divine Souls.

 

my humble parnaams !

 

As Dear Sadhak has raised the questions, I am giving some

experiences of the person I Know kuldip..

When we tread on the Path of Love and Intimacy called as Bhakti

marg, we have to understand only one thing.

 

Love means giving your self completely, without any demand, or

anything in exchange of our Surrender.

It Has to be Complete giving of yourself to the Lord...

 

God gives gifts to those who demands wordly gifts, but those who

donot ssk for anything, God provides everything ! including

God gives Himself to HIS Loving Devotees..this is True..

Try and you will see !

 

my regards

eternal child.

kuldip

 

--------------------------------

 

, " sadhak_insight "

<sadhak_insight wrote:

>

> Dear Sadhak friends,

>

> Pranaams to you all,

>

> I think this topic is within the constitution of this group. If

so,

> May we start discussing this issue that is keeping me curious for

> quite some time.

>

> I feel privileged and blessed to come across some excellent

articles

> through this divine platform in the past. I am not an exponent or

> a truely enlightened individual. But I am keen to come to a

> logical conclusion in this subject at the earliest.

>

> I have been experiencing on a personal level that Bhakthi at times

> compels God to pay attention to my prayers and reply back by way of

> little incidents and developments that are not always as I wished

to

> experience. I continue to practise Bhakthi in the simplistic

manner

> possible without exxageration or lavishness. But I always feel

that

> whatever I did indadequate and should have done it better.

>

> I humbly look upon to the learned sadhaks who may wish to bring

> forward their views more formally for the better enlightenment of

> the fellow sadhaks.

>

> May God Bless you all

>

> Dharmarajaiyer

>

>

> GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES:

> 1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify their doubts

> related to Gitaji shalokas. Therefore, responses which further

> clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be posted.

> 2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to

> substantiate your response.

> 3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the

> extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas

> 4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting

> sadhaka's time.

> 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only.

> 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other

> organizations.

> 7. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone

> number, address etc.

> 8. Please do not address the response to a particular individual

> since the message is going to the entire group.

> 9. Due to the large readership, all responses may not be posted.

> 10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if content

> is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the group.

> 11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth,

> westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use to

Sanskrit

> words only, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit bracketed

> wherever possible.

>

> MODERATOR

> Ram Ram

>

[Guest guest]

Certainly Bhagwan (God) is more powerful as everything is His grace.

Bhakti (devotion, worship, divine love) is a medium to experience

Him. We cannot call bhakti as more powerful, as it varies from

individual to individual. Degree of surrender , love , commitment etc

varies. But still irrespective of a particular degree bhakti is there

in all human being, whether one notice or not. Cause of bhakti (devotion,

worship) is bhagwan (God) but cause of bhagwan (God) is not bhakti.

 

samir sharma

 

-

Loving Divine,

Pranam.

 

" God to pay attention to my prayers and reply back by way of little

incidents and developments that are not always as I wished to

experience. "

 

BG 2:48-51, 12:12 - karmafal tyaag is shreshtha (letting go of

expectations/fruits of action is great). Because of this the actions

performed are free of selfish motive. If the clay statue is not put

in fire, it does not gain it's strength! Perfection comes after many

finishing touches...! One should be thankful to God for granting

these experiences as they prove to be - great learning lessons which

will help a person to mature in his/her bhakti, karma and jyaan.

They are the experiences that one needed the most for his/her

spiritual evolution.

Great help in one's all round development. They provide us the

opportunities to evaluate our own strength and weaknesses.

great means to let go of our expectations and become free of those

samsakars.

Great opportunities to expand our vision, heart and understanding by

accepting all of His creation.

Little tests for us - how firm we are in our faith.

 

" I continue to practise Bhakthi in the simplistic manner possible

without exageration or lavishness. "

Bhakti is devotion towards God = unconditional love = inner feelings

= complete faith = total surrender = absolute knowledge, so it has

nothing to do with performing anything as performing happens with

senses, doership, ego.

 

Try to understand these slokas - BG 2:25, 3:34, 4:9, 5:8-9. Upon

dawning of total knowledge true bhakti springs! When there is total

surrender, the absolute knowledge dawns! Performing is an act of ego

and that's why the result comes to us in the manner we don't want

them to be. The feeling of bhakti has been expressed by many bhaktas

as 'God, I am your servant (Sevak, Daas/Daasi).' I am using this

expression intentionally so that one can understand the extent of

surrender, non-expectations, and acceptance one feels. In other

words, I did my duty, I am happy in whatever condition you keep me

in - 'Jaahi vidhi raakhe Raam, taahi vidhi rahiye...'. As Swami

Ramsukhdasji Maharaj has been saying - mere tou Giridhar Gopaal

dusaraa naa koi - any and everything is for Him only and whatever

comes back accept it as His prasad only - it is all You O God,

nothing belongs to me.

 

" But I always feel that whatever I did inadequate and should have

done it better. "

Patram, Pushpam, Falam, Toyam... (BG 9:26). In other words, rest

assured that God is accepting it all whatever you are offering to

Him - your bhakti (devotion - love that you express inwardly), karma

(action - selfless service to others or action in the form of

chanting, meditation, etc.), and gyaan (knowledge - with whatever you

know to do to make God happy). Continue with the total faith,

eventually, all of what one is doing becomes more and more refined or

subtle resulting in self awareness, leading to these deep

understanding of Vasudevam sarvam... comes.

 

humble regards,

always at Thy Holy Feet

 

Manjula Patel

 

 

 

This is my humble opinion. Bhakhi (devotion to God) is a process of

understanding God with one's innermost self.

Once you start this, you will forget everything about your own self

and your mind becomes completely calm. In that state, you do not have

any feeling for any need or want to need anything . In that state,

whatever happens, you are not affected by it at all since ur mind is

already calm. Hence, sometimes, we feel, we et our reply back..but

what i feel is, once we get immersed in devotion to God, whatever

happens external to us does not bother us anymore since we feel happy

inside. But due to this feeling, we come to understand that Bhakthi

has answered our questions.(Yes, Bhakthi was the first step for all

this ). Usually our mind is always fluctuationg and hence when we

come out of that state of devotion, we again, now and then, feel

life's ups and downs. So, meditation/praying/any sort of one's

practice to remember that SUPREME will slowly makes one understand

that the continuous though of the supreme will keep our mind

continuously calm which eventually makes our hear full of peace all

the time. What I mean to say is: having the attitude of devotion

towards God in all our actions of life..whatever actions we do.

Regards,

Bharathi

 

 

 

 

, " sadhak_insight "

<sadhak_insight wrote:

>

> Dear Sadhak,

>

> This confusion is commonly felt amongst many spiritual seekers. If

> we see difference between Bhakti, Bhagwan and Bhakta, we neither

> know ourselves (the Bhakta under one's own claim), nor The Bhagwan

> and never the Bhakti. Not seeking difference between the God and

> ourselves is Bhakti. Then how can it be different from the seeker or

> the sought. In Bhakti, the seeker, the sought as well as the seeking

> process are all unified to The Unity. In such case, how can a Bhakta

> have any expectation? .. and from whom? Therefore, your statement

> that " I am waiting for a reply for my prayer " is self contradictory.

> Bhakti does not need a reply ... IT IS THE REPLY BY ITSELF!

>

> Ishopanishad:

>

> Yastu sarvani bhutani aatmanyevanupashyate

> Sarvabhuteshu chaatmanam tato na vjugupsate.

>

> Bhakti enables us to mitigate differences between us and the world.

> One who sees oneself in everything is obviously The Everything - The

> God - as such. Thence, how can he have any room for doubts and

> disappointments. The presence of the doubts and disappointments are

> the symptomes of the lack of Bhakti. To notice that is wonderful -

> we get a chance to correct ourselves.

>

> Yastu sarvani bhutani aatmaivabhudvijanatah

> Tatra ko mohah kah shokah ekatvamanupashyatah

>

> One who has attained The Unity alone is worthy of being praised as a

> Bhakta as he cannot see anything other than himself in everything.

> Then how can he lack anything in life? Then how can the emotional

> instability enter him in terms of sadness and happiness. Bhakti

> enables us to balance ourselves at peace perpetually. Presence of

> emotions indicates lack of peace. Lack of peace indicates lack of

> Bhakti. Again, it is wonderful to notice that since we get an

> opportunity to correct ourselves.

>

> Respects.

>

> Naga Narayana.

>

>

> --

> Your experience is reverential. Bhakti is like gravitation of earth

> and it pulls every object to it but if the object is tied up with

> something, pulling force of earth becomes ineffective. God is

> powerful as earth but because we are detached with existing

> illusions and thus cannot have an experience of pull of the god.

> Bhakti is like gravitation of the earth and not a property of

> object. This means, Sri Krishna is that gravitational pull, and not

> us. Our objective should be only to surrender to the pull of bhakti

> of Sri Krishna, and not get afraid of loosing attachment with things

> that hold us.

>

> I want to repeat in heart this senario of Krishna trying to catch

> us, but we have many excuses of knowledge, work and penance. I write

> in English what Sri Krishna says Himself in chapter 5

>

> Tapasibhyo dhiko yogi, zyanibhyopi matodikah

> karmabhyasi dhiko yogi, tasmat yogi bhavarjuna

>

> Be in a senario that Sri Krishna is 'nana' or maternal grand father,

> His daughter is the prakriti and we all are the child of prakriti

> and in a way, grand child of Sri Krishna. Like all children, we too

> are close to 'nana' and try to please Him by hard work (tapah), by

> rigrous studies (zyana) and by doing work (karma) but 'nana' Sri

> Krishna says do nothng, just come to me. Nothing is necessary to

> qualify love our own 'nana'. He is desperate and we like children

> display our skill and knowledge to Him, unnecesarily.

>

> Bhakti is not our responsibility, our responsibility is just not

> have defenses and worries for ourselves. If we worry for ourselves

> and defenses and mind is engaged in calculations, pull of Sri

> Krishna is ineffective. Bhagwat Gita is not a prayer book, it is not

> a book promoting dogmas and business of temples, flowers,

> loudspeakers and offering sweets to idols and TV serials. It is

> unfortunate that it is hijacked by religious sects calling in Hindu

> and so on, and diverting minds from bhakti as devotion to

> independent self nature.

>

> Bhakti is being in state of non defense, and non expectation and

> non pleasing/ unpleasing to anyone real or imaginary. This silence

> and awareness and unattached observation shows how Sri Krishna

> quickly comes to you. Just see how you get saved from trouble when

> did not expected it. This is Bhakti. Bhakti = non defense.

>

> Regards

> K G

> Krishna Gopal

>

> --

-

> Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

>

> Bhakthi is generally understood as total Devotion to God. God in

> some forms is more suitable at least in the beginning so the mind

> can focus. My understanding is that it is essential to have total,

> unbroken, and Unconditional Trust in God that whatever happens or

> doesn't happen is alright the way it unfolds.

> As one worships, does japas, chants mantras, does meditation, or

> goes to temples or whatever one does in earnest, there is a humility

> and surrender feelings already present. Humility and surrender makes

> one egoless-free of me sense, and allows Bhagwan who is already

> hiding behind ego waiting to step in and change devotee's mind to

> see correctly, and respond appropriately in the midst of adverse

> situations.

> (Mahabharata war was such a response on the part of

> Pandavas!)

> In such a state, mind becomes desireless, carefree, peaceful,

> satisfied, and ultimately fulfiled from within that nothing from

> outside is needed. However, material needs of such a devotee is

> provided through adopting to his/her vyavsayas(job engaged in). It

is

> never his/her problem. It is God who intervenes through spiritual

> laws, called miracles! Krishna affirms this in Gita(9:22) " He(God-

> Supreme Consciousness) provides necessities and security for

> such devout Bhaktas " .

> I am humbled by such small miracles on a personal level!

> Bhakta, Bhakti and Bhagwan are all but one Experience of fulfilment

> (being purna in oneself as one is) in the ultimate sense. True

> bhakti descends so to speak, when the understanding of God-

> Consciousness as Reality of Devotee and devotion dawns!

> Namaskars ... Pratap Bhatt

>

>

> Dear Divine Souls.

>

> my humble parnaams !

>

> As Dear Sadhak has raised the questions, I am giving some

> experiences of the person I Know kuldip..

> When we tread on the Path of Love and Intimacy called as Bhakti

> marg, we have to understand only one thing.

>

> Love means giving your self completely, without any demand, or

> anything in exchange of our Surrender.

> It Has to be Complete giving of yourself to the Lord...

>

> God gives gifts to those who demands wordly gifts, but those who

> donot ssk for anything, God provides everything ! including

> God gives Himself to HIS Loving Devotees..this is True..

> Try and you will see !

>

> my regards

> eternal child.

> kuldip

>

> --------------------------------

>

> , " sadhak_insight "

> <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> >

> > Dear Sadhak friends,

> >

> > Pranaams to you all,

> >

> > I think this topic is within the constitution of this group. If

> so,

> > May we start discussing this issue that is keeping me curious for

> > quite some time.

> >

> > I feel privileged and blessed to come across some excellent

> articles

> > through this divine platform in the past. I am not an exponent or

> > a truely enlightened individual. But I am keen to come to a

> > logical conclusion in this subject at the earliest.

> >

> > I have been experiencing on a personal level that Bhakthi at times

> > compels God to pay attention to my prayers and reply back by way

of

> > little incidents and developments that are not always as I wished

> to

> > experience. I continue to practise Bhakthi in the simplistic

> manner

> > possible without exxageration or lavishness. But I always feel

> that

> > whatever I did indadequate and should have done it better.

> >

> > I humbly look upon to the learned sadhaks who may wish to bring

> > forward their views more formally for the better enlightenment of

> > the fellow sadhaks.

> >

> > May God Bless you all

> >

> > Dharmarajaiyer

> >

> >

> > GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES:

> > 1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify their doubts

> > related to Gitaji shalokas. Therefore, responses which further

> > clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be posted.

> > 2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to

> > substantiate your response.

> > 3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the

> > extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas

> > 4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting

> > sadhaka's time.

> > 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only.

> > 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other

> > organizations.

> > 7. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone

> > number, address etc.

> > 8. Please do not address the response to a particular individual

> > since the message is going to the entire group.

> > 9. Due to the large readership, all responses may not be posted.

> > 10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if

content

> > is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the group.

> > 11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth,

> > westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use to

> Sanskrit

> > words only, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit

bracketed

> > wherever possible.

> >

> > MODERATOR

> > Ram Ram

> >

>

[Guest guest]

RAM SE BARA RAM KA NAAM.

 

(God's name is equivalent to God Himself)

 

Hari Motwani

 

---

 

The Word " God " is only an imagination. It is not factual. If it be a

fact then there cannot be a 1000 varieties of God. When we talk or

discuss about a subject or an object , first we should have a

specific, clear and universal definition of that word / object. If

there be a thousand definitions and a thousand objects pertaining to

that word, what discussion can you have? Each one will be talking off

at a tangent. And each one will assert that his concept of " God " is

correct !!! such discussion will only lead to untter confusion or

madness.

Therefore, Vedas, upanishads and the Geeta which are the " Pramanas "

for any discussion have to be followed. The Mahavakya of Vedas

is " Tatva Masi " " Aham Brahmasmi "

meaning " That thou Art " , " I am Brahman " . It is the equivalent of

what the great scientist Einstein, after great tapas for 10 years

discovered that E=MC2 . It follows that E is Formless Brahman = M is

matter x the speed of light squared. This shows that Brahman is both -

without attributes and form - Nirguna [ E ] and also with

attributes and form - saguna [ M ]. Brahman can be in the form of E

or as M.

 

Therefore, we mortals who are in the form of M should blow out like

the atom bomb and annihilate the body - Mind - Ego and become the

pure energy where nothing else except the pure energy in the form of

SAT - CHIT - ANANDA (Existence, Consciousness and Bliss Absolute)

exists which is second to none.

 

Therefore, our duty (Kartavya) is to annihilate the Body Mind and Ego

[Aham ] and become that formless " ENERGY " . That is all to this

discussion. This is my understanding of the voice of VEDAS.

 

Ramchander Homma

 

--

My pranaams to fellow sadhaks,

 

I am indeed glad to see some learned thoughts and views coming across

in this subject that I had reluctantly raised. Manjula ji's has

taken time off to illustrate in detail on specific areas of my

original request. I must apologize to her for a serious

typographical error committed in one of the paras which read as

under :

 

" God to pay attention to my prayers and reply back by way of little

incidents and developments that are not always as I wished to

experience. "

 

This I pray should be read as under

 

God to pay attention to my prayers and reply back by way of little

incidents and developments that are almost as I wished to

experience. "

 

The term Not had crept in inadvertently. In nutshell , what I

wanted to say was I felt unrelenting, simple Bhakti has the powers

to compel to pay attention and reply by way of influencing

situations we wished it to be in our life. Such a development not

only brings in positive attitude but compels a Bhatha to surrender

before Him.

 

I look forward to more such valuable pearls of wisdom

 

regards

 

Dhamarajaiyer

--------------------------------

Dear Friends,

Pranaam, Namasthe and Namaskaar !!! (hope, I would not be listed into any sect

of Sanatana Dharma for greetings... recently I heard that even " there is no

universal greetings codes in sanatana dharma " , as all the above words have been

patented by different sects / groups !!! How funny and how fallen all of us have

become... !!!)

 

The science of the " All-pervading ATMA " is beautifully explained by Lord Krishna

(Yogeeshwar Krishna) in the 2nd Chapter of Bhagavad Gita. The Law of Karma and

Karma Yoga are also beautifully explained by Him in the following chapters.

After explaining the quality of INDESTRUCTIBILITY OF ATMA, Lord Krishna asks

Arjuna to get up and fight. Did anyone think as to why this piece of advice is

given by Lord Krishna ?

 

Again, Jnaana Yoga coupled with Karma Yoga (Karma Yoga followed after imbibing

the true knowledge of the life of science that is Jnaana Yoga), Raja Yoga and

finally Bhakti Yoga are all beautifully explained by Lord Krishna.

 

After repeated readings, one has to truly meditate upon the lessons given by Him

in Bhagavad Gita to remove the veil of ignorance that makes one asks the

questions like those raised by Aadaraneeya Ashokji in his mail. All the answers

are in Bhagavad Gita. One can select and adopt whatever suits one's aptitude

and quality. A person of any level of intelligence would be able to pick up

some knowledge which would positively help to move forward in the spiritual

quest, which exists in everyone at different levels of potency. Some

relentlessly seek, some casually seek, some of them do not seek at all.

 

I can answer the questions raised by Shri Ashokji, but I would not colour the

TRUTHS discoursed by Lord Krishna (Yogeeshwar Krishna) with my own

interpretations. To some extent, the answers have been given by me above. It is

for Shri Ashokji himself to find out the answers as he seems to possess high

level of intelligence.

 

With best regards,

vm (vavamenon)

 

" Ashok T. Jaisinghani " <ashokjai wrote:

 

Can a Killer or Rapist be also considered as God?

 

Please refer to your message of March 12 with the title, " Which is powerful

- Bhakthi or Bhagawan (God)? "

 

It is absolutely confusing for anyone to believe that " Not seeking

difference between the God and ourselves is Bhakti. Then how can it be different

from the seeker or the sought. In Bhakti, the seeker, the sought as well as the

seeking process are all unified to The Unity. " Can the seeker and the sought

really be unified to The Unity?

 

Is it right to believe that " One who sees oneself in everything is obviously

The Everything - The God - as such. " How can one be Everything or even God?

 

Is it also right to believe that " One who has attained The Unity alone is

worthy of being praised as a Bhakta as he cannot see anything other than himself

in everything. "

 

Can a person who is attacked by a killer see himself in the killer? Should

the person not defend himself because he should consider even the killer as God?

 

Should a man do nothing when a rapist is raping his wife? Should the man

consider the rapist as God, or is the wife the " God " who does not need to be

defended? Should the man be a mere observer who feels nothing and does nothing?

If everything and everyone is God, and God is everything and everyone, no action

is required! The man witnessing the rape is God, the rapist is also God and the

raped wife is also God!

 

Please clarify, as they seem so confusing and absurd to all the human beings

like me who can only have limited intelligence?

 

With best regards,

Ashok T. Jaisinghani.

 

 

 

, " sadhak_insight "

<sadhak_insight wrote:

>

> Certainly Bhagwan (God) is more powerful as everything is His grace.

> Bhakti (devotion, worship, divine love) is a medium to experience

> Him. We cannot call bhakti as more powerful, as it varies from

> individual to individual. Degree of surrender , love , commitment

etc

> varies. But still irrespective of a particular degree bhakti is

there

> in all human being, whether one notice or not. Cause of bhakti

(devotion, worship) is bhagwan (God) but cause of bhagwan (God) is

not bhakti.

>

> samir sharma

>

> -

> Loving Divine,

> Pranam.

>

> " God to pay attention to my prayers and reply back by way of little

> incidents and developments that are not always as I wished to

> experience. "

>

> BG 2:48-51, 12:12 - karmafal tyaag is shreshtha (letting go of

> expectations/fruits of action is great). Because of this the

actions

> performed are free of selfish motive. If the clay statue is not put

> in fire, it does not gain it's strength! Perfection comes after

many

> finishing touches...! One should be thankful to God for granting

> these experiences as they prove to be - great learning lessons which

> will help a person to mature in his/her bhakti, karma and jyaan.

> They are the experiences that one needed the most for his/her

> spiritual evolution.

> Great help in one's all round development. They provide us the

> opportunities to evaluate our own strength and weaknesses.

> great means to let go of our expectations and become free of those

> samsakars.

> Great opportunities to expand our vision, heart and understanding by

> accepting all of His creation.

> Little tests for us - how firm we are in our faith.

>

> " I continue to practise Bhakthi in the simplistic manner possible

> without exageration or lavishness. "

> Bhakti is devotion towards God = unconditional love = inner feelings

> = complete faith = total surrender = absolute knowledge, so it has

> nothing to do with performing anything as performing happens with

> senses, doership, ego.

>

> Try to understand these slokas - BG 2:25, 3:34, 4:9, 5:8-9. Upon

> dawning of total knowledge true bhakti springs! When there is total

> surrender, the absolute knowledge dawns! Performing is an act of

ego

> and that's why the result comes to us in the manner we don't want

> them to be. The feeling of bhakti has been expressed by many

bhaktas

> as 'God, I am your servant (Sevak, Daas/Daasi).' I am using this

> expression intentionally so that one can understand the extent of

> surrender, non-expectations, and acceptance one feels. In other

> words, I did my duty, I am happy in whatever condition you keep me

> in - 'Jaahi vidhi raakhe Raam, taahi vidhi rahiye...'. As Swami

> Ramsukhdasji Maharaj has been saying - mere tou Giridhar Gopaal

> dusaraa naa koi - any and everything is for Him only and whatever

> comes back accept it as His prasad only - it is all You O God,

> nothing belongs to me.

>

> " But I always feel that whatever I did inadequate and should have

> done it better. "

> Patram, Pushpam, Falam, Toyam... (BG 9:26). In other words, rest

> assured that God is accepting it all whatever you are offering to

> Him - your bhakti (devotion - love that you express inwardly), karma

> (action - selfless service to others or action in the form of

> chanting, meditation, etc.), and gyaan (knowledge - with whatever

you

> know to do to make God happy). Continue with the total faith,

> eventually, all of what one is doing becomes more and more refined

or

> subtle resulting in self awareness, leading to these deep

> understanding of Vasudevam sarvam... comes.

>

> humble regards,

> always at Thy Holy Feet

>

> Manjula Patel

>

>

>

> This is my humble opinion. Bhakhi (devotion to God) is a process of

> understanding God with one's innermost self.

> Once you start this, you will forget everything about your own self

> and your mind becomes completely calm. In that state, you do not

have

> any feeling for any need or want to need anything . In that state,

> whatever happens, you are not affected by it at all since ur mind is

> already calm. Hence, sometimes, we feel, we et our reply back..but

> what i feel is, once we get immersed in devotion to God, whatever

> happens external to us does not bother us anymore since we feel

happy

> inside. But due to this feeling, we come to understand that Bhakthi

> has answered our questions.(Yes, Bhakthi was the first step for all

> this ). Usually our mind is always fluctuationg and hence when we

> come out of that state of devotion, we again, now and then, feel

> life's ups and downs. So, meditation/praying/any sort of one's

> practice to remember that SUPREME will slowly makes one understand

> that the continuous though of the supreme will keep our mind

> continuously calm which eventually makes our hear full of peace all

> the time. What I mean to say is: having the attitude of devotion

> towards God in all our actions of life..whatever actions we do.

> Regards,

> Bharathi

>

>

>

>

> , " sadhak_insight "

> <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> >

> > Dear Sadhak,

> >

> > This confusion is commonly felt amongst many spiritual seekers. If

> > we see difference between Bhakti, Bhagwan and Bhakta, we neither

> > know ourselves (the Bhakta under one's own claim), nor The Bhagwan

> > and never the Bhakti. Not seeking difference between the God and

> > ourselves is Bhakti. Then how can it be different from the seeker

or

> > the sought. In Bhakti, the seeker, the sought as well as the

seeking

> > process are all unified to The Unity. In such case, how can a

Bhakta

> > have any expectation? .. and from whom? Therefore, your statement

> > that " I am waiting for a reply for my prayer " is self

contradictory.

> > Bhakti does not need a reply ... IT IS THE REPLY BY ITSELF!

> >

> > Ishopanishad:

> >

> > Yastu sarvani bhutani aatmanyevanupashyate

> > Sarvabhuteshu chaatmanam tato na vjugupsate.

> >

> > Bhakti enables us to mitigate differences between us and the

world.

> > One who sees oneself in everything is obviously The Everything -

The

> > God - as such. Thence, how can he have any room for doubts and

> > disappointments. The presence of the doubts and disappointments

are

> > the symptomes of the lack of Bhakti. To notice that is wonderful -

> > we get a chance to correct ourselves.

> >

> > Yastu sarvani bhutani aatmaivabhudvijanatah

> > Tatra ko mohah kah shokah ekatvamanupashyatah

> >

> > One who has attained The Unity alone is worthy of being praised

as a

> > Bhakta as he cannot see anything other than himself in everything.

> > Then how can he lack anything in life? Then how can the emotional

> > instability enter him in terms of sadness and happiness. Bhakti

> > enables us to balance ourselves at peace perpetually. Presence of

> > emotions indicates lack of peace. Lack of peace indicates lack of

> > Bhakti. Again, it is wonderful to notice that since we get an

> > opportunity to correct ourselves.

> >

> > Respects.

> >

> > Naga Narayana.

> >

> >

> >

--

> > Your experience is reverential. Bhakti is like gravitation of

earth

> > and it pulls every object to it but if the object is tied up with

> > something, pulling force of earth becomes ineffective. God is

> > powerful as earth but because we are detached with existing

> > illusions and thus cannot have an experience of pull of the god.

> > Bhakti is like gravitation of the earth and not a property of

> > object. This means, Sri Krishna is that gravitational pull, and

not

> > us. Our objective should be only to surrender to the pull of

bhakti

> > of Sri Krishna, and not get afraid of loosing attachment with

things

> > that hold us.

> >

> > I want to repeat in heart this senario of Krishna trying to catch

> > us, but we have many excuses of knowledge, work and penance. I

write

> > in English what Sri Krishna says Himself in chapter 5

> >

> > Tapasibhyo dhiko yogi, zyanibhyopi matodikah

> > karmabhyasi dhiko yogi, tasmat yogi bhavarjuna

> >

> > Be in a senario that Sri Krishna is 'nana' or maternal grand

father,

> > His daughter is the prakriti and we all are the child of prakriti

> > and in a way, grand child of Sri Krishna. Like all children, we

too

> > are close to 'nana' and try to please Him by hard work (tapah),

by

> > rigrous studies (zyana) and by doing work (karma) but 'nana' Sri

> > Krishna says do nothng, just come to me. Nothing is necessary to

> > qualify love our own 'nana'. He is desperate and we like children

> > display our skill and knowledge to Him, unnecesarily.

> >

> > Bhakti is not our responsibility, our responsibility is just not

> > have defenses and worries for ourselves. If we worry for ourselves

> > and defenses and mind is engaged in calculations, pull of Sri

> > Krishna is ineffective. Bhagwat Gita is not a prayer book, it is

not

> > a book promoting dogmas and business of temples, flowers,

> > loudspeakers and offering sweets to idols and TV serials. It is

> > unfortunate that it is hijacked by religious sects calling in

Hindu

> > and so on, and diverting minds from bhakti as devotion to

> > independent self nature.

> >

> > Bhakti is being in state of non defense, and non expectation and

> > non pleasing/ unpleasing to anyone real or imaginary. This

silence

> > and awareness and unattached observation shows how Sri Krishna

> > quickly comes to you. Just see how you get saved from trouble when

> > did not expected it. This is Bhakti. Bhakti = non defense.

> >

> > Regards

> > K G

> > Krishna Gopal

> >

> >

--

> -

> > Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

> >

> > Bhakthi is generally understood as total Devotion to God. God in

> > some forms is more suitable at least in the beginning so the mind

> > can focus. My understanding is that it is essential to have total,

> > unbroken, and Unconditional Trust in God that whatever happens or

> > doesn't happen is alright the way it unfolds.

> > As one worships, does japas, chants mantras, does meditation, or

> > goes to temples or whatever one does in earnest, there is a

humility

> > and surrender feelings already present. Humility and surrender

makes

> > one egoless-free of me sense, and allows Bhagwan who is already

> > hiding behind ego waiting to step in and change devotee's mind to

> > see correctly, and respond appropriately in the midst of adverse

> > situations.

> > (Mahabharata war was such a response on the part of

> > Pandavas!)

> > In such a state, mind becomes desireless, carefree, peaceful,

> > satisfied, and ultimately fulfiled from within that nothing from

> > outside is needed. However, material needs of such a devotee is

> > provided through adopting to his/her vyavsayas(job engaged in). It

> is

> > never his/her problem. It is God who intervenes through spiritual

> > laws, called miracles! Krishna affirms this in Gita(9:22) " He(God-

> > Supreme Consciousness) provides necessities and security for

> > such devout Bhaktas " .

> > I am humbled by such small miracles on a personal level!

> > Bhakta, Bhakti and Bhagwan are all but one Experience of

fulfilment

> > (being purna in oneself as one is) in the ultimate sense. True

> > bhakti descends so to speak, when the understanding of God-

> > Consciousness as Reality of Devotee and devotion dawns!

> > Namaskars ... Pratap Bhatt

> >

> >

> > Dear Divine Souls.

> >

> > my humble parnaams !

> >

> > As Dear Sadhak has raised the questions, I am giving some

> > experiences of the person I Know kuldip..

> > When we tread on the Path of Love and Intimacy called as Bhakti

> > marg, we have to understand only one thing.

> >

> > Love means giving your self completely, without any demand, or

> > anything in exchange of our Surrender.

> > It Has to be Complete giving of yourself to the Lord...

> >

> > God gives gifts to those who demands wordly gifts, but those who

> > donot ssk for anything, God provides everything ! including

> > God gives Himself to HIS Loving Devotees..this is True..

> > Try and you will see !

> >

> > my regards

> > eternal child.

> > kuldip

> >

> > --------------------------------

> >

> > , " sadhak_insight "

> > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Dear Sadhak friends,

> > >

> > > Pranaams to you all,

> > >

> > > I think this topic is within the constitution of this group. If

> > so,

> > > May we start discussing this issue that is keeping me curious

for

> > > quite some time.

> > >

> > > I feel privileged and blessed to come across some excellent

> > articles

> > > through this divine platform in the past. I am not an exponent

or

> > > a truely enlightened individual. But I am keen to come to a

> > > logical conclusion in this subject at the earliest.

> > >

> > > I have been experiencing on a personal level that Bhakthi at

times

> > > compels God to pay attention to my prayers and reply back by way

> of

> > > little incidents and developments that are not always as I

wished

> > to

> > > experience. I continue to practise Bhakthi in the simplistic

> > manner

> > > possible without exxageration or lavishness. But I always feel

> > that

> > > whatever I did indadequate and should have done it better.

> > >

> > > I humbly look upon to the learned sadhaks who may wish to bring

> > > forward their views more formally for the better enlightenment

of

> > > the fellow sadhaks.

> > >

> > > May God Bless you all

> > >

> > > Dharmarajaiyer

> > >

> > > -------------------------------

--

> > > GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES:

> > > 1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify their doubts

> > > related to Gitaji shalokas. Therefore, responses which further

> > > clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be posted.

> > > 2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to

> > > substantiate your response.

> > > 3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the

> > > extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas

> > > 4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting

> > > sadhaka's time.

> > > 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only.

> > > 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other

> > > organizations.

> > > 7. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone

> > > number, address etc.

> > > 8. Please do not address the response to a particular individual

> > > since the message is going to the entire group.

> > > 9. Due to the large readership, all responses may not be posted.

> > > 10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if

> content

> > > is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the group.

> > > 11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth,

> > > westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use to

> > Sanskrit

> > > words only, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit

> bracketed

> > > wherever possible.

> > >

> > > MODERATOR

> > > Ram Ram

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Loving Divine,

Pranams.

Let's try 2 understand Gitaji frm gross level & find our way out 2

spiritual lvl hopefully that helps Ashokji & many new spiritual

aspirants.

 

There r lot of misconceptions, wrong understanding & ignorance

present in today's wrld about spirituality - selfless act (karma),

divine love (bhakti) & absolute knowledge (gyaan). Arjun is a

perfect example. When a spiritual aspirant starts his/her spiritual

journey he/she has painted some picture of spirituality in his/her

mind (own notions, environment, political situation, co., society,

science, etc... contribute to this picture) which doesn't match

w/what our scriptures are truly saying so conflict arises. Any

criminal act is a criminal act in worldly terms & Shri Krishna

acknowledges it by motivating Arjun to fight for right cause, at

right time. He says do your duty without desiring anything in

return. When no expectations, duty becomes selfless service. He

even redicules Arjun's behaviour for backing out (BG 2:2-3). If one

needs to protect victims from any criminal act or punish criminals,

one must do so, however, in the awareness of who's doing it? God

further says that He's all (BG 10) & Arjun confirms it (BG 11:13).

So Lord being all including Arjun & others who are against Arjun in

this war, tell me who's fighting with whom? That's why wise people

call this 'God's Leela' (divine play).

 

Two views are present here to evaluate the situation - gross/physical

& spiritual. At gross level, warriers are different bodies ready to

fight but when viewed from spiritual level - they all have soul (v, 4

communication purposes, call this as embodied soul-jivaatmaa as v

interpret it to be within certain body.) Experiment this - fill up a

big bucket w/water, put a small cup in this pot - now tell me is

water in cup or cup's in water? Add another cup - now tell me is

water in 1st cup different than 2nd cup? Now can v say that different

water is present in & outside the cups? It is a matter of

perception. God is water of big bucket & v r small cups in that

water. When a spiritual master speaks he/she speaks frm water in a

big bucket perspective & when spiritual aspirant tries to understand

he/she attempts frm small cup lvl. Until concepts of cups in big

bucket clicks in the aspirant's head the master continues w/different

approaches. Same thing Bhagwan did w/Arjun. Lord gave the knowledge

right away in the BG chapter 2 but Arjun wasn't quite ready yet so

Lord continued w/karma, bhakti & various combinations of these three

until Arjun got it.

 

So again, criminal act is a criminal act from gross level but soul

within each one of us is one and the same including criminals but

neither v nor they percieve it that way as we all r bound by our ego

& body sense. While reading any scripture one has to choose a

perspective & adjust their attitude accordingly, only then one will

understand what's being said in these beautiful scriptures. If one

remains in world & tries to understand soul, one will fail miserably -

can't mix oil & water, one has to view them separately until it

clicks! Another way of looking at it - viewing world from top of

mountain - there are no distictions between this or that tree -

everything's just green. But if you are situated in valley,

different trees exist w/different shades of greenness. When one is

really at the highest spiritual level even no greenery remains - peak

of mountain is above cloud, above sky, above earth, above

universe... So when one is established in Parmatma (Supreme

Consciousness), no criminal act is present! Can you really

distinguish between space? God is subtler than space & therefore

THAT/HE/SHE/IT is the basis of all existent & non existent. Can one

ever say space inside a house, in a hole dug in ground or at the top

of mountain is different? The absolute space is just space, same way

absolute soul is just SOUL & that's God/Brahman/Paramatma/or whatever

one wants to call. Jivaatmaa (embodies Soul), born of Parmatma

(Supreme Consciousness) (BG 15:7), is Parmatma just like animal born

of animal? While living in world we have to behave with everyone

according to worldly rules - one can't behave same way with child,

husband/wife, friend, servent, etc. but in our mind we have to be

aware of the presence of same soul in all.

 

Just like space is present everywhere, God being subtler is present

everywhere so how can THAT be not in the one who is seeing, seen and

sought? When one merges in God, differences dissolve, one is united

yet in the same unity, many resides (cups and water in big bucket).

When a doll made of salt goes into ocean, no doll remains, it becomes

ocean itself, right? Same thing happens when one merges in God, one

becomes God.

 

Enough to contemplate for now...

humble regards,

always at Thy Divine Feet

 

Manjula Patel

---

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

I can appreciate questions raised by Ashokji. I make an attempt as

best as I know them to be based on my experience.

Let us first understand what is this " I " that I call myself and the

world I see? This has to be based by looking at the actual

experience, and not just accepting what religions or scriptures say

about it in the manner we gather information When we experience any

object, see that it is in terms of raw sensations created by organs

of perceptions such as seeing-forms, hearing-sound, smelling-smell,

touching- sensations, tasting-tastes. These are fed to mind which

recognizes through memory, conceiving the object with a name which is

just a thought. Thus all our experiences are conceived thoughts in our

consciousness(mind) about those objects, be them gross objects or

subtle such as me, mine, my beliefs, my opinions, my house, etc. We

cannot experience own body and world without being conscious of them.

What happens, then, is that we equate the consciousness of such

perceived objects with the outside objects and think they are there

regardless of we perceive them or not. This is our first fallacy. Of

course objects do exist in and of themselves, in the wholeness, not as

separate such as my body, a chair or a dog, or ocean, mountain, etc.

Separation is in mind as conventions for conducting life. We cannot

experience them as such but we can nevertheless understand them being

consciousness when dealing with them enabling us to be detached. The

world is inside us, in consciousness!

What is allegedly outside cannot be known in and of itself! Thus

everything is consciousness of those " things " including I and the

world as we experience. In the light of this discovery, Bhagwan and

bhakta, killer and killed, rapist and victim, all are Consciousness

(Atman-soul-I, Brahman, God). Thus the whole world is experienced as

ourselves only, being the Consciousness we are!

This has to be experientially understood first. This is the

UNDERSTANDING – Gyan which is behind the proclamation of Sages in all

ages " Everything is God " .

 

Remember this is the understanding in the mind, not that one will see

God of his or her own imagination everywhere! One will continue to

see dog as dog, tree as tree and so forth, but now with right

understanding behind same experiences as before. Nothing has changed

out there, and yet everything has changed upside down. Now we can say

when such a person acts in daily life, it is this understanding that

really acts on his behalf, not an individual person. So the

appropriate response is given to killer, or rapist at the time

incidents happen guided by such wisdom. One cannot speculate one way

or the other as to what should be response should this happen to me.

It could be to run away or to fight or do whatever appropriate.

Mahabharat war is an example of such a response by Pandavas based on

wisdom imparted by Krishna to Arjuna : Fighting for justice to all

and establish dharma for future generations, killing was deemed to be

appropriate action, specially after all failed attempts to avoid

killings. After all as Krishna says, death is to perceived bodies and

sense of ego, no one really dies in such death. One is Consciousness

which Is one's True Being and therefore Bliss!

 

I think such questions as raised here must be asked. However, they

are answered better with inquiry leading to Truth of oneself and the

world provided one is prone to Knowledge – Gyan approach.

 

Pratap Bhatt

--

 

Pure intellect, pure love even towards people who hate you.

Pure action (means doing Karma without expecting fruits of action)

Pur actions are what saints, rishis did and Nis Kama Prema Bakthi

manifested in their hearts and Bagavan was behind those bakthas.

Examples:

Baktha Gora : Choped his hands for love of God` s Name.

Sant Sakubai left her home to Panderpur, but

Bagavan served as a servant in her place in the home.

There are numerous histories. Read Baktha vijayam.

B.Sathyanarayan

 

--

, " sadhak_insight "

<sadhak_insight wrote:

>

> RAM SE BARA RAM KA NAAM.

>

> (God's name is equivalent to God Himself)

>

> Hari Motwani

>

> --

-

>

> The Word " God " is only an imagination. It is not factual. If it be a

> fact then there cannot be a 1000 varieties of God. When we talk or

> discuss about a subject or an object , first we should have a

> specific, clear and universal definition of that word / object. If

> there be a thousand definitions and a thousand objects pertaining to

> that word, what discussion can you have? Each one will be talking

off

> at a tangent. And each one will assert that his concept of " God "

is

> correct !!! such discussion will only lead to untter confusion or

> madness.

> Therefore, Vedas, upanishads and the Geeta which are the " Pramanas "

> for any discussion have to be followed. The Mahavakya of Vedas

> is " Tatva Masi " " Aham Brahmasmi "

> meaning " That thou Art " , " I am Brahman " . It is the equivalent of

> what the great scientist Einstein, after great tapas for 10 years

> discovered that E=MC2 . It follows that E is Formless Brahman = M

is

> matter x the speed of light squared. This shows that Brahman is

both -

> without attributes and form - Nirguna [ E ] and also with

> attributes and form - saguna [ M ]. Brahman can be in the form of E

> or as M.

>

> Therefore, we mortals who are in the form of M should blow out like

> the atom bomb and annihilate the body - Mind - Ego and become the

> pure energy where nothing else except the pure energy in the form of

> SAT - CHIT - ANANDA (Existence, Consciousness and Bliss Absolute)

> exists which is second to none.

>

> Therefore, our duty (Kartavya) is to annihilate the Body Mind and

Ego

> [Aham ] and become that formless " ENERGY " . That is all to this

> discussion. This is my understanding of the voice of VEDAS.

>

> Ramchander Homma

>

> --

> My pranaams to fellow sadhaks,

>

> I am indeed glad to see some learned thoughts and views coming

across

> in this subject that I had reluctantly raised. Manjula ji's has

> taken time off to illustrate in detail on specific areas of my

> original request. I must apologize to her for a serious

> typographical error committed in one of the paras which read as

> under :

>

> " God to pay attention to my prayers and reply back by way of little

> incidents and developments that are not always as I wished to

> experience. "

>

> This I pray should be read as under

>

> God to pay attention to my prayers and reply back by way of little

> incidents and developments that are almost as I wished to

> experience. "

>

> The term Not had crept in inadvertently. In nutshell , what I

> wanted to say was I felt unrelenting, simple Bhakti has the powers

> to compel to pay attention and reply by way of influencing

> situations we wished it to be in our life. Such a development not

> only brings in positive attitude but compels a Bhatha to surrender

> before Him.

>

> I look forward to more such valuable pearls of wisdom

>

> regards

>

> Dhamarajaiyer

> --------------------------------

> Dear Friends,

> Pranaam, Namasthe and Namaskaar !!! (hope, I would not be listed

into any sect of Sanatana Dharma for greetings... recently I heard

that even " there is no universal greetings codes in sanatana dharma " ,

as all the above words have been patented by different sects /

groups !!! How funny and how fallen all of us have become... !!!)

>

> The science of the " All-pervading ATMA " is beautifully explained by

Lord Krishna (Yogeeshwar Krishna) in the 2nd Chapter of Bhagavad

Gita. The Law of Karma and Karma Yoga are also beautifully explained

by Him in the following chapters. After explaining the quality of

INDESTRUCTIBILITY OF ATMA, Lord Krishna asks Arjuna to get up and

fight. Did anyone think as to why this piece of advice is given by

Lord Krishna ?

>

> Again, Jnaana Yoga coupled with Karma Yoga (Karma Yoga followed

after imbibing the true knowledge of the life of science that is

Jnaana Yoga), Raja Yoga and finally Bhakti Yoga are all beautifully

explained by Lord Krishna.

>

> After repeated readings, one has to truly meditate upon the lessons

given by Him in Bhagavad Gita to remove the veil of ignorance that

makes one asks the questions like those raised by Aadaraneeya Ashokji

in his mail. All the answers are in Bhagavad Gita. One can select

and adopt whatever suits one's aptitude and quality. A person of any

level of intelligence would be able to pick up some knowledge which

would positively help to move forward in the spiritual quest, which

exists in everyone at different levels of potency. Some relentlessly

seek, some casually seek, some of them do not seek at all.

>

> I can answer the questions raised by Shri Ashokji, but I would not

colour the TRUTHS discoursed by Lord Krishna (Yogeeshwar Krishna)

with my own interpretations. To some extent, the answers have been

given by me above. It is for Shri Ashokji himself to find out the

answers as he seems to possess high level of intelligence.

>

> With best regards,

> vm (vavamenon)

>

> " Ashok T. Jaisinghani " <ashokjai wrote:

>

> Can a Killer or Rapist be also considered as God?

>

> Please refer to your message of March 12 with the title, " Which

is powerful - Bhakthi or Bhagawan (God)? "

>

> It is absolutely confusing for anyone to believe that " Not

seeking difference between the God and ourselves is Bhakti. Then how

can it be different from the seeker or the sought. In Bhakti, the

seeker, the sought as well as the seeking process are all unified to

The Unity. " Can the seeker and the sought really be unified to The

Unity?

>

> Is it right to believe that " One who sees oneself in everything

is obviously The Everything - The God - as such. " How can one be

Everything or even God?

>

> Is it also right to believe that " One who has attained The

Unity alone is worthy of being praised as a Bhakta as he cannot see

anything other than himself in everything. "

>

> Can a person who is attacked by a killer see himself in the

killer? Should the person not defend himself because he should

consider even the killer as God?

>

> Should a man do nothing when a rapist is raping his wife?

Should the man consider the rapist as God, or is the wife the " God "

who does not need to be defended? Should the man be a mere observer

who feels nothing and does nothing? If everything and everyone is

God, and God is everything and everyone, no action is required! The

man witnessing the rape is God, the rapist is also God and the raped

wife is also God!

>

> Please clarify, as they seem so confusing and absurd to all the

human beings like me who can only have limited intelligence?

>

> With best regards,

> Ashok T. Jaisinghani.

>

>

>

> , " sadhak_insight "

> <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> >

> > Certainly Bhagwan (God) is more powerful as everything is His

grace.

> > Bhakti (devotion, worship, divine love) is a medium to experience

> > Him. We cannot call bhakti as more powerful, as it varies from

> > individual to individual. Degree of surrender , love , commitment

> etc

> > varies. But still irrespective of a particular degree bhakti is

> there

> > in all human being, whether one notice or not. Cause of bhakti

> (devotion, worship) is bhagwan (God) but cause of bhagwan (God) is

> not bhakti.

> >

> > samir sharma

> >

> >

-

> > Loving Divine,

> > Pranam.

> >

> > " God to pay attention to my prayers and reply back by way of

little

> > incidents and developments that are not always as I wished to

> > experience. "

> >

> > BG 2:48-51, 12:12 - karmafal tyaag is shreshtha (letting go of

> > expectations/fruits of action is great). Because of this the

> actions

> > performed are free of selfish motive. If the clay statue is not

put

> > in fire, it does not gain it's strength! Perfection comes after

> many

> > finishing touches...! One should be thankful to God for granting

> > these experiences as they prove to be - great learning lessons

which

> > will help a person to mature in his/her bhakti, karma and jyaan.

> > They are the experiences that one needed the most for his/her

> > spiritual evolution.

> > Great help in one's all round development. They provide us the

> > opportunities to evaluate our own strength and weaknesses.

> > great means to let go of our expectations and become free of those

> > samsakars.

> > Great opportunities to expand our vision, heart and understanding

by

> > accepting all of His creation.

> > Little tests for us - how firm we are in our faith.

> >

> > " I continue to practise Bhakthi in the simplistic manner possible

> > without exageration or lavishness. "

> > Bhakti is devotion towards God = unconditional love = inner

feelings

> > = complete faith = total surrender = absolute knowledge, so it has

> > nothing to do with performing anything as performing happens with

> > senses, doership, ego.

> >

> > Try to understand these slokas - BG 2:25, 3:34, 4:9, 5:8-9. Upon

> > dawning of total knowledge true bhakti springs! When there is

total

> > surrender, the absolute knowledge dawns! Performing is an act of

> ego

> > and that's why the result comes to us in the manner we don't want

> > them to be. The feeling of bhakti has been expressed by many

> bhaktas

> > as 'God, I am your servant (Sevak, Daas/Daasi).' I am using this

> > expression intentionally so that one can understand the extent of

> > surrender, non-expectations, and acceptance one feels. In other

> > words, I did my duty, I am happy in whatever condition you keep me

> > in - 'Jaahi vidhi raakhe Raam, taahi vidhi rahiye...'. As Swami

> > Ramsukhdasji Maharaj has been saying - mere tou Giridhar Gopaal

> > dusaraa naa koi - any and everything is for Him only and whatever

> > comes back accept it as His prasad only - it is all You O God,

> > nothing belongs to me.

> >

> > " But I always feel that whatever I did inadequate and should have

> > done it better. "

> > Patram, Pushpam, Falam, Toyam... (BG 9:26). In other words, rest

> > assured that God is accepting it all whatever you are offering to

> > Him - your bhakti (devotion - love that you express inwardly),

karma

> > (action - selfless service to others or action in the form of

> > chanting, meditation, etc.), and gyaan (knowledge - with whatever

> you

> > know to do to make God happy). Continue with the total faith,

> > eventually, all of what one is doing becomes more and more refined

> or

> > subtle resulting in self awareness, leading to these deep

> > understanding of Vasudevam sarvam... comes.

> >

> > humble regards,

> > always at Thy Holy Feet

> >

> > Manjula Patel

> >

> >

> >

> > This is my humble opinion. Bhakhi (devotion to God) is a process

of

> > understanding God with one's innermost self.

> > Once you start this, you will forget everything about your own

self

> > and your mind becomes completely calm. In that state, you do not

> have

> > any feeling for any need or want to need anything . In that state,

> > whatever happens, you are not affected by it at all since ur mind

is

> > already calm. Hence, sometimes, we feel, we et our reply back..but

> > what i feel is, once we get immersed in devotion to God, whatever

> > happens external to us does not bother us anymore since we feel

> happy

> > inside. But due to this feeling, we come to understand that

Bhakthi

> > has answered our questions.(Yes, Bhakthi was the first step for

all

> > this ). Usually our mind is always fluctuationg and hence when we

> > come out of that state of devotion, we again, now and then, feel

> > life's ups and downs. So, meditation/praying/any sort of one's

> > practice to remember that SUPREME will slowly makes one understand

> > that the continuous though of the supreme will keep our mind

> > continuously calm which eventually makes our hear full of peace

all

> > the time. What I mean to say is: having the attitude of devotion

> > towards God in all our actions of life..whatever actions we do.

> > Regards,

> > Bharathi

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > , " sadhak_insight "

> > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Dear Sadhak,

> > >

> > > This confusion is commonly felt amongst many spiritual seekers.

If

> > > we see difference between Bhakti, Bhagwan and Bhakta, we neither

> > > know ourselves (the Bhakta under one's own claim), nor The

Bhagwan

> > > and never the Bhakti. Not seeking difference between the God and

> > > ourselves is Bhakti. Then how can it be different from the

seeker

> or

> > > the sought. In Bhakti, the seeker, the sought as well as the

> seeking

> > > process are all unified to The Unity. In such case, how can a

> Bhakta

> > > have any expectation? .. and from whom? Therefore, your

statement

> > > that " I am waiting for a reply for my prayer " is self

> contradictory.

> > > Bhakti does not need a reply ... IT IS THE REPLY BY ITSELF!

> > >

> > > Ishopanishad:

> > >

> > > Yastu sarvani bhutani aatmanyevanupashyate

> > > Sarvabhuteshu chaatmanam tato na vjugupsate.

> > >

> > > Bhakti enables us to mitigate differences between us and the

> world.

> > > One who sees oneself in everything is obviously The Everything -

> The

> > > God - as such. Thence, how can he have any room for doubts and

> > > disappointments. The presence of the doubts and disappointments

> are

> > > the symptomes of the lack of Bhakti. To notice that is

wonderful -

> > > we get a chance to correct ourselves.

> > >

> > > Yastu sarvani bhutani aatmaivabhudvijanatah

> > > Tatra ko mohah kah shokah ekatvamanupashyatah

> > >

> > > One who has attained The Unity alone is worthy of being praised

> as a

> > > Bhakta as he cannot see anything other than himself in

everything.

> > > Then how can he lack anything in life? Then how can the

emotional

> > > instability enter him in terms of sadness and happiness. Bhakti

> > > enables us to balance ourselves at peace perpetually. Presence

of

> > > emotions indicates lack of peace. Lack of peace indicates lack

of

> > > Bhakti. Again, it is wonderful to notice that since we get an

> > > opportunity to correct ourselves.

> > >

> > > Respects.

> > >

> > > Naga Narayana.

> > >

> > >

> > > -------------------------------

--

> --

> > > Your experience is reverential. Bhakti is like gravitation of

> earth

> > > and it pulls every object to it but if the object is tied up

with

> > > something, pulling force of earth becomes ineffective. God is

> > > powerful as earth but because we are detached with existing

> > > illusions and thus cannot have an experience of pull of the god.

> > > Bhakti is like gravitation of the earth and not a property of

> > > object. This means, Sri Krishna is that gravitational pull, and

> not

> > > us. Our objective should be only to surrender to the pull of

> bhakti

> > > of Sri Krishna, and not get afraid of loosing attachment with

> things

> > > that hold us.

> > >

> > > I want to repeat in heart this senario of Krishna trying to

catch

> > > us, but we have many excuses of knowledge, work and penance. I

> write

> > > in English what Sri Krishna says Himself in chapter 5

> > >

> > > Tapasibhyo dhiko yogi, zyanibhyopi matodikah

> > > karmabhyasi dhiko yogi, tasmat yogi bhavarjuna

> > >

> > > Be in a senario that Sri Krishna is 'nana' or maternal grand

> father,

> > > His daughter is the prakriti and we all are the child of

prakriti

> > > and in a way, grand child of Sri Krishna. Like all children, we

> too

> > > are close to 'nana' and try to please Him by hard work (tapah),

> by

> > > rigrous studies (zyana) and by doing work (karma) but 'nana' Sri

> > > Krishna says do nothng, just come to me. Nothing is necessary to

> > > qualify love our own 'nana'. He is desperate and we like

children

> > > display our skill and knowledge to Him, unnecesarily.

> > >

> > > Bhakti is not our responsibility, our responsibility is just not

> > > have defenses and worries for ourselves. If we worry for

ourselves

> > > and defenses and mind is engaged in calculations, pull of Sri

> > > Krishna is ineffective. Bhagwat Gita is not a prayer book, it is

> not

> > > a book promoting dogmas and business of temples, flowers,

> > > loudspeakers and offering sweets to idols and TV serials. It is

> > > unfortunate that it is hijacked by religious sects calling in

> Hindu

> > > and so on, and diverting minds from bhakti as devotion to

> > > independent self nature.

> > >

> > > Bhakti is being in state of non defense, and non expectation and

> > > non pleasing/ unpleasing to anyone real or imaginary. This

> silence

> > > and awareness and unattached observation shows how Sri Krishna

> > > quickly comes to you. Just see how you get saved from trouble

when

> > > did not expected it. This is Bhakti. Bhakti = non defense.

> > >

> > > Regards

> > > K G

> > > Krishna Gopal

> > >

> > > -------------------------------

--

> --

> > -

> > > Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

> > >

> > > Bhakthi is generally understood as total Devotion to God. God in

> > > some forms is more suitable at least in the beginning so the

mind

> > > can focus. My understanding is that it is essential to have

total,

> > > unbroken, and Unconditional Trust in God that whatever happens

or

> > > doesn't happen is alright the way it unfolds.

> > > As one worships, does japas, chants mantras, does meditation, or

> > > goes to temples or whatever one does in earnest, there is a

> humility

> > > and surrender feelings already present. Humility and surrender

> makes

> > > one egoless-free of me sense, and allows Bhagwan who is already

> > > hiding behind ego waiting to step in and change devotee's mind

to

> > > see correctly, and respond appropriately in the midst of adverse

> > > situations.

> > > (Mahabharata war was such a response on the part of

> > > Pandavas!)

> > > In such a state, mind becomes desireless, carefree, peaceful,

> > > satisfied, and ultimately fulfiled from within that nothing from

> > > outside is needed. However, material needs of such a devotee is

> > > provided through adopting to his/her vyavsayas(job engaged in).

It

> > is

> > > never his/her problem. It is God who intervenes through

spiritual

> > > laws, called miracles! Krishna affirms this in Gita(9:22) " He

(God-

> > > Supreme Consciousness) provides necessities and security for

> > > such devout Bhaktas " .

> > > I am humbled by such small miracles on a personal level!

> > > Bhakta, Bhakti and Bhagwan are all but one Experience of

> fulfilment

> > > (being purna in oneself as one is) in the ultimate sense. True

> > > bhakti descends so to speak, when the understanding of God-

> > > Consciousness as Reality of Devotee and devotion dawns!

> > > Namaskars ... Pratap Bhatt

> > > -------------------------------

--

> > >

> > > Dear Divine Souls.

> > >

> > > my humble parnaams !

> > >

> > > As Dear Sadhak has raised the questions, I am giving some

> > > experiences of the person I Know kuldip..

> > > When we tread on the Path of Love and Intimacy called as Bhakti

> > > marg, we have to understand only one thing.

> > >

> > > Love means giving your self completely, without any demand, or

> > > anything in exchange of our Surrender.

> > > It Has to be Complete giving of yourself to the Lord...

> > >

> > > God gives gifts to those who demands wordly gifts, but those who

> > > donot ssk for anything, God provides everything ! including

> > > God gives Himself to HIS Loving Devotees..this is True..

> > > Try and you will see !

> > >

> > > my regards

> > > eternal child.

> > > kuldip

> > >

> > > -------------------------------

-

> > >

> > > , " sadhak_insight "

> > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Dear Sadhak friends,

> > > >

> > > > Pranaams to you all,

> > > >

> > > > I think this topic is within the constitution of this group.

If

> > > so,

> > > > May we start discussing this issue that is keeping me curious

> for

> > > > quite some time.

> > > >

> > > > I feel privileged and blessed to come across some excellent

> > > articles

> > > > through this divine platform in the past. I am not an

exponent

> or

> > > > a truely enlightened individual. But I am keen to come to a

> > > > logical conclusion in this subject at the earliest.

> > > >

> > > > I have been experiencing on a personal level that Bhakthi at

> times

> > > > compels God to pay attention to my prayers and reply back by

way

> > of

> > > > little incidents and developments that are not always as I

> wished

> > > to

> > > > experience. I continue to practise Bhakthi in the simplistic

> > > manner

> > > > possible without exxageration or lavishness. But I always

feel

> > > that

> > > > whatever I did indadequate and should have done it better.

> > > >

> > > > I humbly look upon to the learned sadhaks who may wish to

bring

> > > > forward their views more formally for the better enlightenment

> of

> > > > the fellow sadhaks.

> > > >

> > > > May God Bless you all

> > > >

> > > > Dharmarajaiyer

> > > >

> > > > -----------------------------

--

> --

> > > > GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES:

> > > > 1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify their

doubts

> > > > related to Gitaji shalokas. Therefore, responses which further

> > > > clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be posted.

> > > > 2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures

to

> > > > substantiate your response.

> > > > 3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to

the

> > > > extent that they further help in understanding the Gita

shlokas

> > > > 4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible,

respecting

> > > > sadhaka's time.

> > > > 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only.

> > > > 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other

> > > > organizations.

> > > > 7. Kindly do not include your personal information such as

phone

> > > > number, address etc.

> > > > 8. Please do not address the response to a particular

individual

> > > > since the message is going to the entire group.

> > > > 9. Due to the large readership, all responses may not be

posted.

> > > > 10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if

> > content

> > > > is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the group.

> > > > 11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices,

youth,

> > > > westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use to

> > > Sanskrit

> > > > words only, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit

> > bracketed

> > > > wherever possible.

> > > >

> > > > MODERATOR

> > > > Ram Ram

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Sadhak,

 

Ashokji has brought out very valid and sincere issues in his

questions. Thank you. You are very much right from where you are

standing at – the society. As a social entity myself, I too share

your views as I am within the purview of the society.

 

I see that the social values and relations are kept at the pedestal

in all your argument. That is perfectly correct as far as you want

to steer yourself in the social ladder of life. But … that cannot be

Bhakti … whatsoever you do … howsoever you do. Because, you are

insisting to keep the rules and regulations you have authorized

as " good " above all. Then, there is no room for the concept of God

simply because … (1) The social values and relations upheld remains

supreme; (2) there is creation of sets of values and relations; (3)

there is urge to protect the same. Perfect. But, when insistence of

supremacy of something has been created, something that can be

manipulated, something from which one can expect services as supreme

there lies the issues. It is our ego that wants supremacy over

the world through its juke box of " social and personal values " . How

can there be a concept of God with such an ego playing in the

background?

 

Bhakti requires TOTAL SURRENDER of the ego. Dropping the

wrong doings is straight forward to the ego of a seeker. Dropping

the notion that " I do good " is the more subtle and difficult hurdle

a seeker of Bhakti faces within. Very often we don't even acknowledge

such hurdles – so crafty and strong is our ego. On has to be extra-

cautious while dealing with oneself very carefully in the path of

Sadhana – call it Bhakti or Gnyana or Karma or anything else that

comes across our mind. It is a razor edge on which you have to

tread your footsteps my dear friend - " Kshurasya dhara nishita

duratyaya durgam pathah tat Kavayah vadanti " .

 

Since you have sought clarification … let us go ahead … I am just

thinking aloud putting myself at your position and subjecting myself

to self-criticism below. If you are offended by these utterances, I

am happy for you since that gives you an opportunity to look at

yourself closer. That is all the Sadhana is about, in my opinion. If

you want more clarifications from my little understanding, please

feel free to whip me up.

 

Respects.

 

Naga Narayana.

 

(from Gita talk Moderator - Please try to keep your future responses somewhat

concise - Thank you).

 

Q.1 It is absolutely confusing for anyone to believe that " Not

seeking difference between the God and ourselves is Bhakti. Then how

can it be different from the seeker or the sought. In Bhakti, the

seeker, the sought as well as the seeking process are all unified to

The Unity. " Can the seeker and the sought really be unified to The

Unity?

 

A.1 Yes. It is not just possible, that is the only Truth. Even if

you are not a seeker, you ARE one with God … everything is ONE with

god. It is just that we are not aware of it fully. Let us focus on

Bhakti. Bhakti means ABSOLUTE SURRENDER to God. Absolute surrender

means NOT IDENTIFYING ONESELF as separate entity from the God. If

you identify yourself as an entity different from God you are

holding on to a pedestal from where the ego can claim authority

again. On the other hand, the God becomes a concept under your

purview. No concept can be The God, The All-Pervasive etc. as it is

bound within your mind which is trapped in your brain. The only way

to experience The All-Pervasive is to dissolve oneself into it.

There is no other way. If you consider Bhakti is the route for

experiencing God, do you see any other way?

 

As such the whole universe is merged within that Unity to sustain

its harmony – " dynamic equilibrium " in a Physicist's point of view –

between matter and energy. The ego cannot fathom that due to its

insistence on bounded discreteness in its perception. The question

is NOT " Can the seeker and the sought really be unified to The

Unity? " . The question is " Do I need to acknowledge The Truth? Do I

need to experience The Truth? Do I want to be The Truth? " If you

have the later question, it is worthwhile for you to dwell on this

matter. Otherwise, it is a useless topic for you.

 

Q.2 Can a Killer or Rapist be also considered as God? Can a person

who is attacked by a killer see himself in the killer? Should the

person not defend himself because he should consider even the killer

as God?

 

A.2 I remember of reading an excellent remark from a saint. Somebody

asked " Why God is not resolving my problem? " He said, " When you

think you can resolve your problems yourself, how can he interfere

with your freedom? " Remember, God being All-Pervasive, being

everything, is the Absolute Freedom. How can Freedom constrain you

or interfere with anything – good or bad? After all, what are these

goods and bads? They are just figments of your imagination trapped

in your mind that is imprisoned in your brain. Yes, if you give

importance to that, stick to that as mentioned earlier. Nothing

wrong. But just look at the flip side of it … The very notion of

being violated is causing so much trouble to your existence.

Strictly speaking, you do not know for sure whether God has laid any

rule to favor something and loath something. It is our wishful

thinking. As we no, nature's rule is to let the fittest survival.

All that you are referring to is the game of survival – relations,

friends, foes, etc. I do not think that we value these as such. We

pretend to value them because they boost our chances of survival.

Let us keep the survival game plan that all our egos have been

treading upon since ancient days in our sight. Therefore, all the

questions you have raised has validity ONLY WITHIN THIS GAME PLAN.

Please do not try to thrust your wish list into a God's concept.

Then, The God that you are imagining is no more a god – just another

tool to assist your game plan. Anything of this sort cannot be

Bhakti. Look at the scenario – only the ego is kept at the altar,

NOT god! The focal point is the protection of our identities, the

egos which are nothing but a bunch of relations, values and

emotions. In true Bhakti, " I " does not exist. Then how can " I " have

anything – body, relations, possessions, etc.? Then, where is " good "

and where is " bad " ? It is all That Freedom around. If you want to

be " FREE " , you need to seek that freedom – that is Bhakti. On the

other hand, if you want to " defend " your notions, please carry on.

THAT IS OUR FIRST RESPONSIBILITY – TO ACKNOWLDGE OUR NOTIONS AND TO

SERVE THEM TRUTHFULLY.

 

Shreyan swadharmo vigunah paradharmat swanushthitat.

Swadharmanidhanam shreyah paradharmo bhayavahah.

 

We have to execute our lives the way we have to. The Sadhana is to

keep a vigil over our activities to keep the growth of our egos at

bay and to purge its roots perpetually while we are involved in our

routines. Bhakti is the ultimate route to take us out our bondages …

if you care to … ONLY IF you care to.

 

Q.3: Should a man do nothing when a rapist is raping his wife?

Should the man consider the rapist as God, or is the wife the " God "

who does not need to be defended? Should the man be a mere observer

who feels nothing and does nothing? If everything and everyone is

God, and God is everything and everyone, no action is required! The

man witnessing the rape is God, the rapist is also God and the raped

wife is also God!

 

Please go through the wonderful chapters of Bhagavan Vyasa

revelations carefully. Until you have a feeling that " you are

doing " , you better do what you are doing well with honesty. Be it a

doctor protecting life or a soldier killing the same. Do your duties

in perfection. Who said you should do nothing? Can you ever do

nothing? That is an impossibility! THAT IS ABSURD!! But, the

suggestion is … just observe the happenings … who does what … who

are you … where do you fit in the so called " your actions " … just

keep a watch … keep a vigil … that is bhakti – to see that " you " are

not the only one working … that is BHAKTI – to see that something

else is the sole reason for all these actions.

 

Study Devi Suktam. Study Rudram. Study any scripts … YES … the

killer, the killed, the rapist, the raped, etc. are also THAT just

like you, me, a saint, a prophet etc. A prophet knows it … a saint

acknowledges it … you and me wish for it … killers, rapists etc. do

not care for it. The less you care of it, the more perturbed you

are. That is a fact. Knowingly or unknowingly, everyone wants the

freedom. The more alienated you are from it, more constrained you

feel, more miserable you become. Bhakti is to acknowledge that

freedom, to seek it and to attain it awarefully. Ignorants are also

blessed with the same bliss in terms of sleep etc. They have no clue

of that and suffer when they are not with it naturally. To

naturalize the association of oneself with the bliss of life in

spite of what you are doing – REMEMBER, IN SPITE OF WHAT YOU ARE

DOING SINCE NO ONE CAN ESCAPE FROM DOING SOMETHING – is Bhakti.

 

Let me tell a story. There was a person who stopped speaking

completely with an oath that he will utter a word only when he

experiences God. He was wandering carelessly … aimlessly and landed

in a secured area. The soldier warned him. He did not respond … he

could not care. The soldier threw his spear at his chest fearing

that he could be a deadly foe. As the spear pierced his heart, he

uttered " Tattvamasi Shvetaketo! " translating " It is You Shwetaketu! "

He was named Shwetaketu. He saw himself in everything – even in the

one who threw the spear, in the spear that cut his body apart as

well as the body that was being cut apart. He could never feel pain

through out the process which you and me can term as " killing " .

Please digest this story well if you want to appreciate Bhagavan

Vyasa's great revelations when he can utter " Nainam chindanti

shastrani, nainam dahati pavakah … " . We are al THAT. If we know we

know … else, we don't. If we don't, we suffer under the burden of

acquiring and defending our self created territories of life – body,

relations, emotions, values, taboos, etc. It is all up to us. We are

free … we are free to seek freedom … we are also free to continue

our invasion on the world to strengthen our territories further. The

Freedom will not interfere in either way just because it is THE

FREEDOM.

 

Q.4 Is it right to believe that " One who sees oneself in everything

is obviously The Everything - The God - as such. " How can one be

everything or even God?

 

If The God is not everything in your opinion, your understanding of

god should be subjected to great suspicion! In that case, " your god "

is not really The God in my opinion since that cannot be All

Pervasive, etc. If The God is everything – that is the only way The

God can be The God as such – everything including me, you, a dog, a

germ, a dust as well as the void should be The God. You cannot make

The God a singularity – one with infinite powers amongst infinite

powerless fellows! Even the infinite singularity cannot encompass

the rest even if they are negligibly finite and remains limited.

Therefore, it is obvious that EVERYTHING INCLUDING NOTHING IS GOD.

Anything else can never be god as there cannot exist anything else.

You cannot single out any object to be The God. At the same time,

you cannot single out any object The God is not. In other words God

is everything and nothing can be God.

 

To answer your question, YES! One who experiences everything as self

is everything as such. Just the way you and me can feel our minds

and bodies as ourselves can assert that we are this specific body-

mind cluster, a person who has attained this universal existence is

The Universe as such. If he is everything in his honest experience,

he is THAT. How can there be a doubt about that? If you ask me

personally whether it is fiction or real, I would say, IT IS REAL

because I cannot attain something that I assume as fictional.

 

I would like to extend my statement further. As such, telling that

something is not god is the greatest sin ever, in my opinion. If I

say that something is not God, then my acceptance of The God as All-

Pervasive, etc. is a myth, a superstition, a lie at its best.

Therefore, I hold that, whether you like it or not, whether you know

it or not, whether you accept it or not … everything including the

nothing is verily The God. There cannot exist anything other than

THAT. There cannot non-exist anything other than THAT as well. You

and me do not know it … a realized soul knows it. That is the only

difference.

 

Q.5 Is it also right to believe that " One who has attained The Unity

alone is worthy of being praised as a Bhakta as he cannot see

anything other than himself in everything. "

 

I think, I have already made it clear. Yes! Only the one has

attained that UNITY is worthy of being praised as a Bhakta. As I

have made it clear, as everything is verily united within that

UNITY, everything is also a Bhakta. Knowing that one is a Bhakta

perpetually is the one that I praise because there lays my path to

tread upon toward attaining THAT eventually. It is not my belief

though. It is my life. I want to keep it that way. Nobody else is

not praise-worthy because a Sadhaka should never settle for anything

less. Praising a True Bhakta is praising The God and vice versa

since they are synonymous to me. I call that Bhakti which helps me

to be in harmony within and with the rest of the world.

 

As Krishna Gopal puts it, if we hang on to the notions, emotions,

relations and values that we generate for our living … we will

continue to hang on to them. If we can dare to plunge into the

harmony of life as is by listening to the call of the Life Force,

Sri Krishna … we can also take part in the Bliss of Life actively.

It is all up to us. Bottom line is to be happy rather than trying to

have happiness. Yes … it is all up to us.

 

Respects.

 

Naga Narayana.

 

 

 

 

, " sadhak_insight "

<sadhak_insight wrote:

>

> Loving Divine,

> Pranams.

> Let's try 2 understand Gitaji frm gross level & find our way out 2

> spiritual lvl hopefully that helps Ashokji & many new spiritual

> aspirants.

>

> There r lot of misconceptions, wrong understanding & ignorance

> present in today's wrld about spirituality - selfless act (karma),

> divine love (bhakti) & absolute knowledge (gyaan). Arjun is a

> perfect example. When a spiritual aspirant starts his/her

spiritual

> journey he/she has painted some picture of spirituality in his/her

> mind (own notions, environment, political situation, co., society,

> science, etc... contribute to this picture) which doesn't match

> w/what our scriptures are truly saying so conflict arises. Any

> criminal act is a criminal act in worldly terms & Shri Krishna

> acknowledges it by motivating Arjun to fight for right cause, at

> right time. He says do your duty without desiring anything in

> return. When no expectations, duty becomes selfless service. He

> even redicules Arjun's behaviour for backing out (BG 2:2-3). If

one

> needs to protect victims from any criminal act or punish criminals,

> one must do so, however, in the awareness of who's doing it? God

> further says that He's all (BG 10) & Arjun confirms it (BG 11:13).

> So Lord being all including Arjun & others who are against Arjun in

> this war, tell me who's fighting with whom? That's why wise people

> call this 'God's Leela' (divine play).

>

> Two views are present here to evaluate the situation -

gross/physical

> & spiritual. At gross level, warriers are different bodies ready

to

> fight but when viewed from spiritual level - they all have soul

(v, 4

> communication purposes, call this as embodied soul-jivaatmaa as v

> interpret it to be within certain body.) Experiment this - fill

up a

> big bucket w/water, put a small cup in this pot - now tell me is

> water in cup or cup's in water? Add another cup - now tell me is

> water in 1st cup different than 2nd cup? Now can v say that

different

> water is present in & outside the cups? It is a matter of

> perception. God is water of big bucket & v r small cups in that

> water. When a spiritual master speaks he/she speaks frm water in a

> big bucket perspective & when spiritual aspirant tries to

understand

> he/she attempts frm small cup lvl. Until concepts of cups in big

> bucket clicks in the aspirant's head the master continues

w/different

> approaches. Same thing Bhagwan did w/Arjun. Lord gave the

knowledge

> right away in the BG chapter 2 but Arjun wasn't quite ready yet so

> Lord continued w/karma, bhakti & various combinations of these

three

> until Arjun got it.

>

> So again, criminal act is a criminal act from gross level but soul

> within each one of us is one and the same including criminals but

> neither v nor they percieve it that way as we all r bound by our

ego

> & body sense. While reading any scripture one has to choose a

> perspective & adjust their attitude accordingly, only then one will

> understand what's being said in these beautiful scriptures. If one

> remains in world & tries to understand soul, one will fail

miserably -

> can't mix oil & water, one has to view them separately until it

> clicks! Another way of looking at it - viewing world from top of

> mountain - there are no distictions between this or that tree -

> everything's just green. But if you are situated in valley,

> different trees exist w/different shades of greenness. When one is

> really at the highest spiritual level even no greenery remains -

peak

> of mountain is above cloud, above sky, above earth, above

> universe... So when one is established in Parmatma (Supreme

> Consciousness), no criminal act is present! Can you really

> distinguish between space? God is subtler than space & therefore

> THAT/HE/SHE/IT is the basis of all existent & non existent. Can

one

> ever say space inside a house, in a hole dug in ground or at the

top

> of mountain is different? The absolute space is just space, same

way

> absolute soul is just SOUL & that's God/Brahman/Paramatma/or

whatever

> one wants to call. Jivaatmaa (embodies Soul), born of Parmatma

> (Supreme Consciousness) (BG 15:7), is Parmatma just like animal

born

> of animal? While living in world we have to behave with everyone

> according to worldly rules - one can't behave same way with child,

> husband/wife, friend, servent, etc. but in our mind we have to be

> aware of the presence of same soul in all.

>

> Just like space is present everywhere, God being subtler is present

> everywhere so how can THAT be not in the one who is seeing, seen

and

> sought? When one merges in God, differences dissolve, one is

united

> yet in the same unity, many resides (cups and water in big bucket).

> When a doll made of salt goes into ocean, no doll remains, it

becomes

> ocean itself, right? Same thing happens when one merges in God,

one

> becomes God.

>

> Enough to contemplate for now...

> humble regards,

> always at Thy Divine Feet

>

> Manjula Patel

> -

--

> Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

> I can appreciate questions raised by Ashokji. I make an attempt as

> best as I know them to be based on my experience.

> Let us first understand what is this " I " that I call myself and the

> world I see? This has to be based by looking at the actual

> experience, and not just accepting what religions or scriptures say

> about it in the manner we gather information When we experience any

> object, see that it is in terms of raw sensations created by organs

> of perceptions such as seeing-forms, hearing-sound, smelling-smell,

> touching- sensations, tasting-tastes. These are fed to mind which

> recognizes through memory, conceiving the object with a name which

is

> just a thought. Thus all our experiences are conceived thoughts in

our

> consciousness(mind) about those objects, be them gross objects or

> subtle such as me, mine, my beliefs, my opinions, my house, etc. We

> cannot experience own body and world without being conscious of

them.

> What happens, then, is that we equate the consciousness of such

> perceived objects with the outside objects and think they are there

> regardless of we perceive them or not. This is our first fallacy.

Of

> course objects do exist in and of themselves, in the wholeness,

not as

> separate such as my body, a chair or a dog, or ocean, mountain,

etc.

> Separation is in mind as conventions for conducting life. We cannot

> experience them as such but we can nevertheless understand them

being

> consciousness when dealing with them enabling us to be detached.

The

> world is inside us, in consciousness!

> What is allegedly outside cannot be known in and of itself! Thus

> everything is consciousness of those " things " including I and the

> world as we experience. In the light of this discovery, Bhagwan and

> bhakta, killer and killed, rapist and victim, all are Consciousness

> (Atman-soul-I, Brahman, God). Thus the whole world is experienced

as

> ourselves only, being the Consciousness we are!

> This has to be experientially understood first. This is the

> UNDERSTANDING – Gyan which is behind the proclamation of Sages in

all

> ages " Everything is God " .

>

> Remember this is the understanding in the mind, not that one will

see

> God of his or her own imagination everywhere! One will continue to

> see dog as dog, tree as tree and so forth, but now with right

> understanding behind same experiences as before. Nothing has

changed

> out there, and yet everything has changed upside down. Now we can

say

> when such a person acts in daily life, it is this understanding

that

> really acts on his behalf, not an individual person. So the

> appropriate response is given to killer, or rapist at the time

> incidents happen guided by such wisdom. One cannot speculate one

way

> or the other as to what should be response should this happen to

me.

> It could be to run away or to fight or do whatever appropriate.

> Mahabharat war is an example of such a response by Pandavas based

on

> wisdom imparted by Krishna to Arjuna : Fighting for justice to all

> and establish dharma for future generations, killing was deemed to

be

> appropriate action, specially after all failed attempts to avoid

> killings. After all as Krishna says, death is to perceived bodies

and

> sense of ego, no one really dies in such death. One is

Consciousness

> which Is one's True Being and therefore Bliss!

>

> I think such questions as raised here must be asked. However, they

> are answered better with inquiry leading to Truth of oneself and

the

> world provided one is prone to Knowledge – Gyan approach.

>

> Pratap Bhatt

> -

-

>

> Pure intellect, pure love even towards people who hate you.

> Pure action (means doing Karma without expecting fruits of action)

> Pur actions are what saints, rishis did and Nis Kama Prema Bakthi

> manifested in their hearts and Bagavan was behind those bakthas.

> Examples:

> Baktha Gora : Choped his hands for love of God` s Name.

> Sant Sakubai left her home to Panderpur, but

> Bagavan served as a servant in her place in the home.

> There are numerous histories. Read Baktha vijayam.

> B.Sathyanarayan

>

> -

-

> , " sadhak_insight "

> <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> >

> > RAM SE BARA RAM KA NAAM.

> >

> > (God's name is equivalent to God Himself)

> >

> > Hari Motwani

> >

> > --------------------------------

---

> -

> >

> > The Word " God " is only an imagination. It is not factual. If it

be a

> > fact then there cannot be a 1000 varieties of God. When we talk

or

> > discuss about a subject or an object , first we should have a

> > specific, clear and universal definition of that word / object.

If

> > there be a thousand definitions and a thousand objects

pertaining to

> > that word, what discussion can you have? Each one will be talking

> off

> > at a tangent. And each one will assert that his concept of "

God "

> is

> > correct !!! such discussion will only lead to untter confusion or

> > madness.

> > Therefore, Vedas, upanishads and the Geeta which are

the " Pramanas "

> > for any discussion have to be followed. The Mahavakya of Vedas

> > is " Tatva Masi " " Aham Brahmasmi "

> > meaning " That thou Art " , " I am Brahman " . It is the

equivalent of

> > what the great scientist Einstein, after great tapas for 10 years

> > discovered that E=MC2 . It follows that E is Formless Brahman =

M

> is

> > matter x the speed of light squared. This shows that Brahman is

> both -

> > without attributes and form - Nirguna [ E ] and also with

> > attributes and form - saguna [ M ]. Brahman can be in the form

of E

> > or as M.

> >

> > Therefore, we mortals who are in the form of M should blow out

like

> > the atom bomb and annihilate the body - Mind - Ego and become

the

> > pure energy where nothing else except the pure energy in the

form of

> > SAT - CHIT - ANANDA (Existence, Consciousness and Bliss Absolute)

> > exists which is second to none.

> >

> > Therefore, our duty (Kartavya) is to annihilate the Body Mind and

> Ego

> > [Aham ] and become that formless " ENERGY " . That is all to this

> > discussion. This is my understanding of the voice of VEDAS.

> >

> > Ramchander Homma

> >

> > --------------------------------

---

> > My pranaams to fellow sadhaks,

> >

> > I am indeed glad to see some learned thoughts and views coming

> across

> > in this subject that I had reluctantly raised. Manjula ji's has

> > taken time off to illustrate in detail on specific areas of my

> > original request. I must apologize to her for a serious

> > typographical error committed in one of the paras which read as

> > under :

> >

> > " God to pay attention to my prayers and reply back by way of

little

> > incidents and developments that are not always as I wished to

> > experience. "

> >

> > This I pray should be read as under

> >

> > God to pay attention to my prayers and reply back by way of

little

> > incidents and developments that are almost as I wished to

> > experience. "

> >

> > The term Not had crept in inadvertently. In nutshell , what I

> > wanted to say was I felt unrelenting, simple Bhakti has the

powers

> > to compel to pay attention and reply by way of influencing

> > situations we wished it to be in our life. Such a development

not

> > only brings in positive attitude but compels a Bhatha to

surrender

> > before Him.

> >

> > I look forward to more such valuable pearls of wisdom

> >

> > regards

> >

> > Dhamarajaiyer

> > --------------------------------

> > Dear Friends,

> > Pranaam, Namasthe and Namaskaar !!! (hope, I would not be listed

> into any sect of Sanatana Dharma for greetings... recently I heard

> that even " there is no universal greetings codes in sanatana

dharma " ,

> as all the above words have been patented by different sects /

> groups !!! How funny and how fallen all of us have become... !!!)

> >

> > The science of the " All-pervading ATMA " is beautifully explained

by

> Lord Krishna (Yogeeshwar Krishna) in the 2nd Chapter of Bhagavad

> Gita. The Law of Karma and Karma Yoga are also beautifully

explained

> by Him in the following chapters. After explaining the quality of

> INDESTRUCTIBILITY OF ATMA, Lord Krishna asks Arjuna to get up and

> fight. Did anyone think as to why this piece of advice is given by

> Lord Krishna ?

> >

> > Again, Jnaana Yoga coupled with Karma Yoga (Karma Yoga followed

> after imbibing the true knowledge of the life of science that is

> Jnaana Yoga), Raja Yoga and finally Bhakti Yoga are all beautifully

> explained by Lord Krishna.

> >

> > After repeated readings, one has to truly meditate upon the

lessons

> given by Him in Bhagavad Gita to remove the veil of ignorance that

> makes one asks the questions like those raised by Aadaraneeya

Ashokji

> in his mail. All the answers are in Bhagavad Gita. One can select

> and adopt whatever suits one's aptitude and quality. A person of

any

> level of intelligence would be able to pick up some knowledge which

> would positively help to move forward in the spiritual quest, which

> exists in everyone at different levels of potency. Some

relentlessly

> seek, some casually seek, some of them do not seek at all.

> >

> > I can answer the questions raised by Shri Ashokji, but I would

not

> colour the TRUTHS discoursed by Lord Krishna (Yogeeshwar Krishna)

> with my own interpretations. To some extent, the answers have been

> given by me above. It is for Shri Ashokji himself to find out the

> answers as he seems to possess high level of intelligence.

> >

> > With best regards,

> > vm (vavamenon)

> > --------------------------------

-

> > " Ashok T. Jaisinghani " <ashokjai@> wrote:

> >

> > Can a Killer or Rapist be also considered as God?

> >

> > Please refer to your message of March 12 with the

title, " Which

> is powerful - Bhakthi or Bhagawan (God)? "

> >

> > It is absolutely confusing for anyone to believe that " Not

> seeking difference between the God and ourselves is Bhakti. Then

how

> can it be different from the seeker or the sought. In Bhakti, the

> seeker, the sought as well as the seeking process are all unified

to

> The Unity. " Can the seeker and the sought really be unified to The

> Unity?

> >

> > Is it right to believe that " One who sees oneself in

everything

> is obviously The Everything - The God - as such. " How can one be

> Everything or even God?

> >

> > Is it also right to believe that " One who has attained The

> Unity alone is worthy of being praised as a Bhakta as he cannot see

> anything other than himself in everything. "

> >

> > Can a person who is attacked by a killer see himself in the

> killer? Should the person not defend himself because he should

> consider even the killer as God?

> >

> > Should a man do nothing when a rapist is raping his wife?

> Should the man consider the rapist as God, or is the wife the " God "

> who does not need to be defended? Should the man be a mere observer

> who feels nothing and does nothing? If everything and everyone is

> God, and God is everything and everyone, no action is required! The

> man witnessing the rape is God, the rapist is also God and the

raped

> wife is also God!

> >

> > Please clarify, as they seem so confusing and absurd to all

the

> human beings like me who can only have limited intelligence?

> >

> > With best regards,

> > Ashok T. Jaisinghani.

> >

> >

> > --------------------------------

-

> > , " sadhak_insight "

> > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Certainly Bhagwan (God) is more powerful as everything is His

> grace.

> > > Bhakti (devotion, worship, divine love) is a medium to

experience

> > > Him. We cannot call bhakti as more powerful, as it varies from

> > > individual to individual. Degree of surrender , love ,

commitment

> > etc

> > > varies. But still irrespective of a particular degree bhakti is

> > there

> > > in all human being, whether one notice or not. Cause of bhakti

> > (devotion, worship) is bhagwan (God) but cause of bhagwan (God)

is

> > not bhakti.

> > >

> > > samir sharma

> > >

> > > ------------------------------

---

> -

> > > Loving Divine,

> > > Pranam.

> > >

> > > " God to pay attention to my prayers and reply back by way of

> little

> > > incidents and developments that are not always as I wished to

> > > experience. "

> > >

> > > BG 2:48-51, 12:12 - karmafal tyaag is shreshtha (letting go of

> > > expectations/fruits of action is great). Because of this the

> > actions

> > > performed are free of selfish motive. If the clay statue is

not

> put

> > > in fire, it does not gain it's strength! Perfection comes

after

> > many

> > > finishing touches...! One should be thankful to God for

granting

> > > these experiences as they prove to be - great learning lessons

> which

> > > will help a person to mature in his/her bhakti, karma and

jyaan.

> > > They are the experiences that one needed the most for his/her

> > > spiritual evolution.

> > > Great help in one's all round development. They provide us the

> > > opportunities to evaluate our own strength and weaknesses.

> > > great means to let go of our expectations and become free of

those

> > > samsakars.

> > > Great opportunities to expand our vision, heart and

understanding

> by

> > > accepting all of His creation.

> > > Little tests for us - how firm we are in our faith.

> > >

> > > " I continue to practise Bhakthi in the simplistic manner

possible

> > > without exageration or lavishness. "

> > > Bhakti is devotion towards God = unconditional love = inner

> feelings

> > > = complete faith = total surrender = absolute knowledge, so it

has

> > > nothing to do with performing anything as performing happens

with

> > > senses, doership, ego.

> > >

> > > Try to understand these slokas - BG 2:25, 3:34, 4:9, 5:8-9.

Upon

> > > dawning of total knowledge true bhakti springs! When there is

> total

> > > surrender, the absolute knowledge dawns! Performing is an act

of

> > ego

> > > and that's why the result comes to us in the manner we don't

want

> > > them to be. The feeling of bhakti has been expressed by many

> > bhaktas

> > > as 'God, I am your servant (Sevak, Daas/Daasi).' I am using

this

> > > expression intentionally so that one can understand the extent

of

> > > surrender, non-expectations, and acceptance one feels. In

other

> > > words, I did my duty, I am happy in whatever condition you

keep me

> > > in - 'Jaahi vidhi raakhe Raam, taahi vidhi rahiye...'. As

Swami

> > > Ramsukhdasji Maharaj has been saying - mere tou Giridhar Gopaal

> > > dusaraa naa koi - any and everything is for Him only and

whatever

> > > comes back accept it as His prasad only - it is all You O God,

> > > nothing belongs to me.

> > >

> > > " But I always feel that whatever I did inadequate and should

have

> > > done it better. "

> > > Patram, Pushpam, Falam, Toyam... (BG 9:26). In other words,

rest

> > > assured that God is accepting it all whatever you are offering

to

> > > Him - your bhakti (devotion - love that you express inwardly),

> karma

> > > (action - selfless service to others or action in the form of

> > > chanting, meditation, etc.), and gyaan (knowledge - with

whatever

> > you

> > > know to do to make God happy). Continue with the total faith,

> > > eventually, all of what one is doing becomes more and more

refined

> > or

> > > subtle resulting in self awareness, leading to these deep

> > > understanding of Vasudevam sarvam... comes.

> > >

> > > humble regards,

> > > always at Thy Holy Feet

> > >

> > > Manjula Patel

> > >

> > > ------------------------------

---

> > >

> > > This is my humble opinion. Bhakhi (devotion to God) is a

process

> of

> > > understanding God with one's innermost self.

> > > Once you start this, you will forget everything about your own

> self

> > > and your mind becomes completely calm. In that state, you do

not

> > have

> > > any feeling for any need or want to need anything . In that

state,

> > > whatever happens, you are not affected by it at all since ur

mind

> is

> > > already calm. Hence, sometimes, we feel, we et our reply

back..but

> > > what i feel is, once we get immersed in devotion to God,

whatever

> > > happens external to us does not bother us anymore since we feel

> > happy

> > > inside. But due to this feeling, we come to understand that

> Bhakthi

> > > has answered our questions.(Yes, Bhakthi was the first step for

> all

> > > this ). Usually our mind is always fluctuationg and hence when

we

> > > come out of that state of devotion, we again, now and then,

feel

> > > life's ups and downs. So, meditation/praying/any sort of one's

> > > practice to remember that SUPREME will slowly makes one

understand

> > > that the continuous though of the supreme will keep our mind

> > > continuously calm which eventually makes our hear full of peace

> all

> > > the time. What I mean to say is: having the attitude of

devotion

> > > towards God in all our actions of life..whatever actions we do.

> > > Regards,

> > > Bharathi

> > >

> > >

> > > ------------------------------

---

> > >

> > > , " sadhak_insight "

> > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Dear Sadhak,

> > > >

> > > > This confusion is commonly felt amongst many spiritual

seekers.

> If

> > > > we see difference between Bhakti, Bhagwan and Bhakta, we

neither

> > > > know ourselves (the Bhakta under one's own claim), nor The

> Bhagwan

> > > > and never the Bhakti. Not seeking difference between the God

and

> > > > ourselves is Bhakti. Then how can it be different from the

> seeker

> > or

> > > > the sought. In Bhakti, the seeker, the sought as well as the

> > seeking

> > > > process are all unified to The Unity. In such case, how can a

> > Bhakta

> > > > have any expectation? .. and from whom? Therefore, your

> statement

> > > > that " I am waiting for a reply for my prayer " is self

> > contradictory.

> > > > Bhakti does not need a reply ... IT IS THE REPLY BY ITSELF!

> > > >

> > > > Ishopanishad:

> > > >

> > > > Yastu sarvani bhutani aatmanyevanupashyate

> > > > Sarvabhuteshu chaatmanam tato na vjugupsate.

> > > >

> > > > Bhakti enables us to mitigate differences between us and the

> > world.

> > > > One who sees oneself in everything is obviously The

Everything -

> > The

> > > > God - as such. Thence, how can he have any room for doubts

and

> > > > disappointments. The presence of the doubts and

disappointments

> > are

> > > > the symptomes of the lack of Bhakti. To notice that is

> wonderful -

> > > > we get a chance to correct ourselves.

> > > >

> > > > Yastu sarvani bhutani aatmaivabhudvijanatah

> > > > Tatra ko mohah kah shokah ekatvamanupashyatah

> > > >

> > > > One who has attained The Unity alone is worthy of being

praised

> > as a

> > > > Bhakta as he cannot see anything other than himself in

> everything.

> > > > Then how can he lack anything in life? Then how can the

> emotional

> > > > instability enter him in terms of sadness and happiness.

Bhakti

> > > > enables us to balance ourselves at peace perpetually.

Presence

> of

> > > > emotions indicates lack of peace. Lack of peace indicates

lack

> of

> > > > Bhakti. Again, it is wonderful to notice that since we get an

> > > > opportunity to correct ourselves.

> > > >

> > > > Respects.

> > > >

> > > > Naga Narayana.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > ----------------------------

---

> --

> > --

> > > > Your experience is reverential. Bhakti is like gravitation of

> > earth

> > > > and it pulls every object to it but if the object is tied up

> with

> > > > something, pulling force of earth becomes ineffective. God is

> > > > powerful as earth but because we are detached with existing

> > > > illusions and thus cannot have an experience of pull of the

god.

> > > > Bhakti is like gravitation of the earth and not a property of

> > > > object. This means, Sri Krishna is that gravitational pull,

and

> > not

> > > > us. Our objective should be only to surrender to the pull of

> > bhakti

> > > > of Sri Krishna, and not get afraid of loosing attachment with

> > things

> > > > that hold us.

> > > >

> > > > I want to repeat in heart this senario of Krishna trying to

> catch

> > > > us, but we have many excuses of knowledge, work and penance.

I

> > write

> > > > in English what Sri Krishna says Himself in chapter 5

> > > >

> > > > Tapasibhyo dhiko yogi, zyanibhyopi matodikah

> > > > karmabhyasi dhiko yogi, tasmat yogi bhavarjuna

> > > >

> > > > Be in a senario that Sri Krishna is 'nana' or maternal grand

> > father,

> > > > His daughter is the prakriti and we all are the child of

> prakriti

> > > > and in a way, grand child of Sri Krishna. Like all children,

we

> > too

> > > > are close to 'nana' and try to please Him by hard work

(tapah),

> > by

> > > > rigrous studies (zyana) and by doing work (karma) but 'nana'

Sri

> > > > Krishna says do nothng, just come to me. Nothing is

necessary to

> > > > qualify love our own 'nana'. He is desperate and we like

> children

> > > > display our skill and knowledge to Him, unnecesarily.

> > > >

> > > > Bhakti is not our responsibility, our responsibility is just

not

> > > > have defenses and worries for ourselves. If we worry for

> ourselves

> > > > and defenses and mind is engaged in calculations, pull of Sri

> > > > Krishna is ineffective. Bhagwat Gita is not a prayer book,

it is

> > not

> > > > a book promoting dogmas and business of temples, flowers,

> > > > loudspeakers and offering sweets to idols and TV serials. It

is

> > > > unfortunate that it is hijacked by religious sects calling in

> > Hindu

> > > > and so on, and diverting minds from bhakti as devotion to

> > > > independent self nature.

> > > >

> > > > Bhakti is being in state of non defense, and non expectation

and

> > > > non pleasing/ unpleasing to anyone real or imaginary. This

> > silence

> > > > and awareness and unattached observation shows how Sri

Krishna

> > > > quickly comes to you. Just see how you get saved from trouble

> when

> > > > did not expected it. This is Bhakti. Bhakti = non defense.

> > > >

> > > > Regards

> > > > K G

> > > > Krishna Gopal

> > > >

> > > > ----------------------------

---

> --

> > --

> > > -

> > > > Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

> > > >

> > > > Bhakthi is generally understood as total Devotion to God.

God in

> > > > some forms is more suitable at least in the beginning so the

> mind

> > > > can focus. My understanding is that it is essential to have

> total,

> > > > unbroken, and Unconditional Trust in God that whatever

happens

> or

> > > > doesn't happen is alright the way it unfolds.

> > > > As one worships, does japas, chants mantras, does

meditation, or

> > > > goes to temples or whatever one does in earnest, there is a

> > humility

> > > > and surrender feelings already present. Humility and

surrender

> > makes

> > > > one egoless-free of me sense, and allows Bhagwan who is

already

> > > > hiding behind ego waiting to step in and change devotee's

mind

> to

> > > > see correctly, and respond appropriately in the midst of

adverse

> > > > situations.

> > > > (Mahabharata war was such a response on the part of

> > > > Pandavas!)

> > > > In such a state, mind becomes desireless, carefree, peaceful,

> > > > satisfied, and ultimately fulfiled from within that nothing

from

> > > > outside is needed. However, material needs of such a devotee

is

> > > > provided through adopting to his/her vyavsayas(job engaged

in).

> It

> > > is

> > > > never his/her problem. It is God who intervenes through

> spiritual

> > > > laws, called miracles! Krishna affirms this in Gita(9:22) " He

> (God-

> > > > Supreme Consciousness) provides necessities and security for

> > > > such devout Bhaktas " .

> > > > I am humbled by such small miracles on a personal level!

> > > > Bhakta, Bhakti and Bhagwan are all but one Experience of

> > fulfilment

> > > > (being purna in oneself as one is) in the ultimate sense.

True

> > > > bhakti descends so to speak, when the understanding of God-

> > > > Consciousness as Reality of Devotee and devotion dawns!

> > > > Namaskars ... Pratap Bhatt

> > > > ----------------------------

---

> --

> > > >

> > > > Dear Divine Souls.

> > > >

> > > > my humble parnaams !

> > > >

> > > > As Dear Sadhak has raised the questions, I am giving some

> > > > experiences of the person I Know kuldip..

> > > > When we tread on the Path of Love and Intimacy called as

Bhakti

> > > > marg, we have to understand only one thing.

> > > >

> > > > Love means giving your self completely, without any demand,

or

> > > > anything in exchange of our Surrender.

> > > > It Has to be Complete giving of yourself to the Lord...

> > > >

> > > > God gives gifts to those who demands wordly gifts, but those

who

> > > > donot ssk for anything, God provides everything ! including

> > > > God gives Himself to HIS Loving Devotees..this is True..

> > > > Try and you will see !

> > > >

> > > > my regards

> > > > eternal child.

> > > > kuldip

> > > >

> > > > ----------------------------

---

> -

> > > >

> > > > , " sadhak_insight "

> > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > Dear Sadhak friends,

> > > > >

> > > > > Pranaams to you all,

> > > > >

> > > > > I think this topic is within the constitution of this

group.

> If

> > > > so,

> > > > > May we start discussing this issue that is keeping me

curious

> > for

> > > > > quite some time.

> > > > >

> > > > > I feel privileged and blessed to come across some excellent

> > > > articles

> > > > > through this divine platform in the past. I am not an

> exponent

> > or

> > > > > a truely enlightened individual. But I am keen to come to

a

> > > > > logical conclusion in this subject at the earliest.

> > > > >

> > > > > I have been experiencing on a personal level that Bhakthi

at

> > times

> > > > > compels God to pay attention to my prayers and reply back

by

> way

> > > of

> > > > > little incidents and developments that are not always as I

> > wished

> > > > to

> > > > > experience. I continue to practise Bhakthi in the

simplistic

> > > > manner

> > > > > possible without exxageration or lavishness. But I always

> feel

> > > > that

> > > > > whatever I did indadequate and should have done it better.

> > > > >

> > > > > I humbly look upon to the learned sadhaks who may wish to

> bring

> > > > > forward their views more formally for the better

enlightenment

> > of

> > > > > the fellow sadhaks.

> > > > >

> > > > > May God Bless you all

> > > > >

> > > > > Dharmarajaiyer

> > > > >

> > > > > --------------------------

---

> --

> > --

> > > > > GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES:

> > > > > 1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify their

> doubts

> > > > > related to Gitaji shalokas. Therefore, responses which

further

> > > > > clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be posted.

> > > > > 2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other

scriptures

> to

> > > > > substantiate your response.

> > > > > 3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc.

to

> the

> > > > > extent that they further help in understanding the Gita

> shlokas

> > > > > 4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible,

> respecting

> > > > > sadhaka's time.

> > > > > 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only.

> > > > > 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other

> > > > > organizations.

> > > > > 7. Kindly do not include your personal information such as

> phone

> > > > > number, address etc.

> > > > > 8. Please do not address the response to a particular

> individual

> > > > > since the message is going to the entire group.

> > > > > 9. Due to the large readership, all responses may not be

> posted.

> > > > > 10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if

> > > content

> > > > > is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the

group.

> > > > > 11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices,

> youth,

> > > > > westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use to

> > > > Sanskrit

> > > > > words only, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit

> > > bracketed

> > > > > wherever possible.

> > > > >

> > > > > MODERATOR

> > > > > Ram Ram

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Fellow-Seekers:

 

The Bhakti is described in perfection by Ram Sukhdasji in circular

from 20th March, 2008, Thursday - (see repeated below)

 

The Love (God) is Within Us

 

I think there cannot be a better way to tell the blissful unity

amongst Bhakta-Bhakti-Bhagawan. It is wonderful.

 

Therefore ... the title of this discussion itself is in error. There

cannot be comparison within Unity.

 

Respects.

 

Naga Narayana.

 

 

:Shree Hari:

 

20th March, 2008, Thursday

 

The curtain that we see between God and us, the distance that we

see, the separation that we see, that separation is in reality

created only by us, not by God. Because God (Supreme Consciousness)

is ever present at all places and at all times. God (Supreme

Consciousness) is also within us. Not only that, God is even closer

than our assumed sense of mine-ness. God is ever present even in

the worst of worst sinners. Therefore a spiritual aspirant must

accept his ever loving One (Supreme Consciousness) inside himself

and become still (free of all worries and agitations). Besides God,

when one does not accept the existence of any other reality, then

the aspirant will find his Love (lover)within himself. But as long

as within himself, is the belief that " I am this body " - till that

time he will attain nothing but this worldly life.

 

He who sees his Love (Lover) in other beings, in saints and great

souls, in scriptures etc, he will inevitably have to experience

separation from his Love (lover). But he who sees his Love (lover)

in his own self, for him there is no sorrow of separation from the

lover. However close we may see our lover, but if we see him apart

from our self, there will undoubtedly and definitely be a feeling of

separation. However, on seeing the lover as within our self

(one-ness), there is an eternal relationship with the loved one. As

long as there remains within an aspirant the existence of many, till

that time he is unable to experience the eternal relationship with

his loved one, rather, he continues to wander in life, in search of

this love.

 

From " Sant Samagam " in Hindi pg 43 by Swami Ramsukhdasji

 

Ram Ram

 

---

, " sadhak_insight "

<sadhak_insight wrote:

>

> Dear Sadhak,

>

> Ashokji has brought out very valid and sincere issues in his

> questions. Thank you. You are very much right from where you are

> standing at – the society. As a social entity myself, I too share

> your views as I am within the purview of the society.

>

> I see that the social values and relations are kept at the pedestal

> in all your argument. That is perfectly correct as far as you want

> to steer yourself in the social ladder of life. But … that cannot

be

> Bhakti … whatsoever you do … howsoever you do. Because, you are

> insisting to keep the rules and regulations you have authorized

> as " good " above all. Then, there is no room for the concept of God

> simply because … (1) The social values and relations upheld remains

> supreme; (2) there is creation of sets of values and relations; (3)

> there is urge to protect the same. Perfect. But, when insistence of

> supremacy of something has been created, something that can be

> manipulated, something from which one can expect services as

supreme

> there lies the issues. It is our ego that wants supremacy over

> the world through its juke box of " social and personal values " . How

> can there be a concept of God with such an ego playing in the

> background?

>

> Bhakti requires TOTAL SURRENDER of the ego. Dropping the

> wrong doings is straight forward to the ego of a seeker. Dropping

> the notion that " I do good " is the more subtle and difficult hurdle

> a seeker of Bhakti faces within. Very often we don't even

acknowledge

> such hurdles – so crafty and strong is our ego. On has to be extra-

> cautious while dealing with oneself very carefully in the path of

> Sadhana – call it Bhakti or Gnyana or Karma or anything else that

> comes across our mind. It is a razor edge on which you have to

> tread your footsteps my dear friend - " Kshurasya dhara nishita

> duratyaya durgam pathah tat Kavayah vadanti " .

>

> Since you have sought clarification … let us go ahead … I am just

> thinking aloud putting myself at your position and subjecting

myself

> to self-criticism below. If you are offended by these utterances, I

> am happy for you since that gives you an opportunity to look at

> yourself closer. That is all the Sadhana is about, in my opinion.

If

> you want more clarifications from my little understanding, please

> feel free to whip me up.

>

> Respects.

>

> Naga Narayana.

>

> (from Gita talk Moderator - Please try to keep your future

responses somewhat concise - Thank you).

>

> Q.1 It is absolutely confusing for anyone to believe that " Not

> seeking difference between the God and ourselves is Bhakti. Then

how

> can it be different from the seeker or the sought. In Bhakti, the

> seeker, the sought as well as the seeking process are all unified

to

> The Unity. " Can the seeker and the sought really be unified to The

> Unity?

>

> A.1 Yes. It is not just possible, that is the only Truth. Even if

> you are not a seeker, you ARE one with God … everything is ONE with

> god. It is just that we are not aware of it fully. Let us focus on

> Bhakti. Bhakti means ABSOLUTE SURRENDER to God. Absolute surrender

> means NOT IDENTIFYING ONESELF as separate entity from the God. If

> you identify yourself as an entity different from God you are

> holding on to a pedestal from where the ego can claim authority

> again. On the other hand, the God becomes a concept under your

> purview. No concept can be The God, The All-Pervasive etc. as it is

> bound within your mind which is trapped in your brain. The only way

> to experience The All-Pervasive is to dissolve oneself into it.

> There is no other way. If you consider Bhakti is the route for

> experiencing God, do you see any other way?

>

> As such the whole universe is merged within that Unity to sustain

> its harmony – " dynamic equilibrium " in a Physicist's point of

view –

> between matter and energy. The ego cannot fathom that due to its

> insistence on bounded discreteness in its perception. The question

> is NOT " Can the seeker and the sought really be unified to The

> Unity? " . The question is " Do I need to acknowledge The Truth? Do I

> need to experience The Truth? Do I want to be The Truth? " If you

> have the later question, it is worthwhile for you to dwell on this

> matter. Otherwise, it is a useless topic for you.

>

> Q.2 Can a Killer or Rapist be also considered as God? Can a person

> who is attacked by a killer see himself in the killer? Should the

> person not defend himself because he should consider even the

killer

> as God?

>

> A.2 I remember of reading an excellent remark from a saint.

Somebody

> asked " Why God is not resolving my problem? " He said, " When you

> think you can resolve your problems yourself, how can he interfere

> with your freedom? " Remember, God being All-Pervasive, being

> everything, is the Absolute Freedom. How can Freedom constrain you

> or interfere with anything – good or bad? After all, what are these

> goods and bads? They are just figments of your imagination trapped

> in your mind that is imprisoned in your brain. Yes, if you give

> importance to that, stick to that as mentioned earlier. Nothing

> wrong. But just look at the flip side of it … The very notion of

> being violated is causing so much trouble to your existence.

> Strictly speaking, you do not know for sure whether God has laid

any

> rule to favor something and loath something. It is our wishful

> thinking. As we no, nature's rule is to let the fittest survival.

> All that you are referring to is the game of survival – relations,

> friends, foes, etc. I do not think that we value these as such. We

> pretend to value them because they boost our chances of survival.

> Let us keep the survival game plan that all our egos have been

> treading upon since ancient days in our sight. Therefore, all the

> questions you have raised has validity ONLY WITHIN THIS GAME PLAN.

> Please do not try to thrust your wish list into a God's concept.

> Then, The God that you are imagining is no more a god – just

another

> tool to assist your game plan. Anything of this sort cannot be

> Bhakti. Look at the scenario – only the ego is kept at the altar,

> NOT god! The focal point is the protection of our identities, the

> egos which are nothing but a bunch of relations, values and

> emotions. In true Bhakti, " I " does not exist. Then how can " I " have

> anything – body, relations, possessions, etc.? Then, where

is " good "

> and where is " bad " ? It is all That Freedom around. If you want to

> be " FREE " , you need to seek that freedom – that is Bhakti. On the

> other hand, if you want to " defend " your notions, please carry on.

> THAT IS OUR FIRST RESPONSIBILITY – TO ACKNOWLDGE OUR NOTIONS AND TO

> SERVE THEM TRUTHFULLY.

>

> Shreyan swadharmo vigunah paradharmat swanushthitat.

> Swadharmanidhanam shreyah paradharmo bhayavahah.

>

> We have to execute our lives the way we have to. The Sadhana is to

> keep a vigil over our activities to keep the growth of our egos at

> bay and to purge its roots perpetually while we are involved in our

> routines. Bhakti is the ultimate route to take us out our bondages

…

> if you care to … ONLY IF you care to.

>

> Q.3: Should a man do nothing when a rapist is raping his wife?

> Should the man consider the rapist as God, or is the wife the " God "

> who does not need to be defended? Should the man be a mere observer

> who feels nothing and does nothing? If everything and everyone is

> God, and God is everything and everyone, no action is required! The

> man witnessing the rape is God, the rapist is also God and the

raped

> wife is also God!

>

> Please go through the wonderful chapters of Bhagavan Vyasa

> revelations carefully. Until you have a feeling that " you are

> doing " , you better do what you are doing well with honesty. Be it a

> doctor protecting life or a soldier killing the same. Do your

duties

> in perfection. Who said you should do nothing? Can you ever do

> nothing? That is an impossibility! THAT IS ABSURD!! But, the

> suggestion is … just observe the happenings … who does what … who

> are you … where do you fit in the so called " your actions " … just

> keep a watch … keep a vigil … that is bhakti – to see that " you "

are

> not the only one working … that is BHAKTI – to see that something

> else is the sole reason for all these actions.

>

> Study Devi Suktam. Study Rudram. Study any scripts … YES … the

> killer, the killed, the rapist, the raped, etc. are also THAT just

> like you, me, a saint, a prophet etc. A prophet knows it … a saint

> acknowledges it … you and me wish for it … killers, rapists etc. do

> not care for it. The less you care of it, the more perturbed you

> are. That is a fact. Knowingly or unknowingly, everyone wants the

> freedom. The more alienated you are from it, more constrained you

> feel, more miserable you become. Bhakti is to acknowledge that

> freedom, to seek it and to attain it awarefully. Ignorants are also

> blessed with the same bliss in terms of sleep etc. They have no

clue

> of that and suffer when they are not with it naturally. To

> naturalize the association of oneself with the bliss of life in

> spite of what you are doing – REMEMBER, IN SPITE OF WHAT YOU ARE

> DOING SINCE NO ONE CAN ESCAPE FROM DOING SOMETHING – is Bhakti.

>

> Let me tell a story. There was a person who stopped speaking

> completely with an oath that he will utter a word only when he

> experiences God. He was wandering carelessly … aimlessly and landed

> in a secured area. The soldier warned him. He did not respond … he

> could not care. The soldier threw his spear at his chest fearing

> that he could be a deadly foe. As the spear pierced his heart, he

> uttered " Tattvamasi Shvetaketo! " translating " It is You

Shwetaketu! "

> He was named Shwetaketu. He saw himself in everything – even in the

> one who threw the spear, in the spear that cut his body apart as

> well as the body that was being cut apart. He could never feel pain

> through out the process which you and me can term as " killing " .

> Please digest this story well if you want to appreciate Bhagavan

> Vyasa's great revelations when he can utter " Nainam chindanti

> shastrani, nainam dahati pavakah … " . We are al THAT. If we know we

> know … else, we don't. If we don't, we suffer under the burden of

> acquiring and defending our self created territories of life –

body,

> relations, emotions, values, taboos, etc. It is all up to us. We

are

> free … we are free to seek freedom … we are also free to continue

> our invasion on the world to strengthen our territories further.

The

> Freedom will not interfere in either way just because it is THE

> FREEDOM.

>

> Q.4 Is it right to believe that " One who sees oneself in everything

> is obviously The Everything - The God - as such. " How can one be

> everything or even God?

>

> If The God is not everything in your opinion, your understanding of

> god should be subjected to great suspicion! In that case, " your

god "

> is not really The God in my opinion since that cannot be All

> Pervasive, etc. If The God is everything – that is the only way The

> God can be The God as such – everything including me, you, a dog, a

> germ, a dust as well as the void should be The God. You cannot make

> The God a singularity – one with infinite powers amongst infinite

> powerless fellows! Even the infinite singularity cannot encompass

> the rest even if they are negligibly finite and remains limited.

> Therefore, it is obvious that EVERYTHING INCLUDING NOTHING IS GOD.

> Anything else can never be god as there cannot exist anything else.

> You cannot single out any object to be The God. At the same time,

> you cannot single out any object The God is not. In other words God

> is everything and nothing can be God.

>

> To answer your question, YES! One who experiences everything as

self

> is everything as such. Just the way you and me can feel our minds

> and bodies as ourselves can assert that we are this specific body-

> mind cluster, a person who has attained this universal existence is

> The Universe as such. If he is everything in his honest experience,

> he is THAT. How can there be a doubt about that? If you ask me

> personally whether it is fiction or real, I would say, IT IS REAL

> because I cannot attain something that I assume as fictional.

>

> I would like to extend my statement further. As such, telling that

> something is not god is the greatest sin ever, in my opinion. If I

> say that something is not God, then my acceptance of The God as

All-

> Pervasive, etc. is a myth, a superstition, a lie at its best.

> Therefore, I hold that, whether you like it or not, whether you

know

> it or not, whether you accept it or not … everything including the

> nothing is verily The God. There cannot exist anything other than

> THAT. There cannot non-exist anything other than THAT as well. You

> and me do not know it … a realized soul knows it. That is the only

> difference.

>

> Q.5 Is it also right to believe that " One who has attained The

Unity

> alone is worthy of being praised as a Bhakta as he cannot see

> anything other than himself in everything. "

>

> I think, I have already made it clear. Yes! Only the one has

> attained that UNITY is worthy of being praised as a Bhakta. As I

> have made it clear, as everything is verily united within that

> UNITY, everything is also a Bhakta. Knowing that one is a Bhakta

> perpetually is the one that I praise because there lays my path to

> tread upon toward attaining THAT eventually. It is not my belief

> though. It is my life. I want to keep it that way. Nobody else is

> not praise-worthy because a Sadhaka should never settle for

anything

> less. Praising a True Bhakta is praising The God and vice versa

> since they are synonymous to me. I call that Bhakti which helps me

> to be in harmony within and with the rest of the world.

>

> As Krishna Gopal puts it, if we hang on to the notions, emotions,

> relations and values that we generate for our living … we will

> continue to hang on to them. If we can dare to plunge into the

> harmony of life as is by listening to the call of the Life Force,

> Sri Krishna … we can also take part in the Bliss of Life actively.

> It is all up to us. Bottom line is to be happy rather than trying

to

> have happiness. Yes … it is all up to us.

>

> Respects.

>

> Naga Narayana.

>

>

>

>

> , " sadhak_insight "

> <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> >

> > Loving Divine,

> > Pranams.

> > Let's try 2 understand Gitaji frm gross level & find our way out

2

> > spiritual lvl hopefully that helps Ashokji & many new spiritual

> > aspirants.

> >

> > There r lot of misconceptions, wrong understanding & ignorance

> > present in today's wrld about spirituality - selfless act

(karma),

> > divine love (bhakti) & absolute knowledge (gyaan). Arjun is a

> > perfect example. When a spiritual aspirant starts his/her

> spiritual

> > journey he/she has painted some picture of spirituality in

his/her

> > mind (own notions, environment, political situation, co.,

society,

> > science, etc... contribute to this picture) which doesn't match

> > w/what our scriptures are truly saying so conflict arises. Any

> > criminal act is a criminal act in worldly terms & Shri Krishna

> > acknowledges it by motivating Arjun to fight for right cause, at

> > right time. He says do your duty without desiring anything in

> > return. When no expectations, duty becomes selfless service. He

> > even redicules Arjun's behaviour for backing out (BG 2:2-3). If

> one

> > needs to protect victims from any criminal act or punish

criminals,

> > one must do so, however, in the awareness of who's doing it? God

> > further says that He's all (BG 10) & Arjun confirms it (BG

11:13).

> > So Lord being all including Arjun & others who are against Arjun

in

> > this war, tell me who's fighting with whom? That's why wise

people

> > call this 'God's Leela' (divine play).

> >

> > Two views are present here to evaluate the situation -

> gross/physical

> > & spiritual. At gross level, warriers are different bodies ready

> to

> > fight but when viewed from spiritual level - they all have soul

> (v, 4

> > communication purposes, call this as embodied soul-jivaatmaa as v

> > interpret it to be within certain body.) Experiment this - fill

> up a

> > big bucket w/water, put a small cup in this pot - now tell me is

> > water in cup or cup's in water? Add another cup - now tell me is

> > water in 1st cup different than 2nd cup? Now can v say that

> different

> > water is present in & outside the cups? It is a matter of

> > perception. God is water of big bucket & v r small cups in that

> > water. When a spiritual master speaks he/she speaks frm water

in a

> > big bucket perspective & when spiritual aspirant tries to

> understand

> > he/she attempts frm small cup lvl. Until concepts of cups in big

> > bucket clicks in the aspirant's head the master continues

> w/different

> > approaches. Same thing Bhagwan did w/Arjun. Lord gave the

> knowledge

> > right away in the BG chapter 2 but Arjun wasn't quite ready yet

so

> > Lord continued w/karma, bhakti & various combinations of these

> three

> > until Arjun got it.

> >

> > So again, criminal act is a criminal act from gross level but

soul

> > within each one of us is one and the same including criminals but

> > neither v nor they percieve it that way as we all r bound by our

> ego

> > & body sense. While reading any scripture one has to choose a

> > perspective & adjust their attitude accordingly, only then one

will

> > understand what's being said in these beautiful scriptures. If

one

> > remains in world & tries to understand soul, one will fail

> miserably -

> > can't mix oil & water, one has to view them separately until it

> > clicks! Another way of looking at it - viewing world from top of

> > mountain - there are no distictions between this or that tree -

> > everything's just green. But if you are situated in valley,

> > different trees exist w/different shades of greenness. When one

is

> > really at the highest spiritual level even no greenery remains -

> peak

> > of mountain is above cloud, above sky, above earth, above

> > universe... So when one is established in Parmatma (Supreme

> > Consciousness), no criminal act is present! Can you really

> > distinguish between space? God is subtler than space & therefore

> > THAT/HE/SHE/IT is the basis of all existent & non existent. Can

> one

> > ever say space inside a house, in a hole dug in ground or at the

> top

> > of mountain is different? The absolute space is just space, same

> way

> > absolute soul is just SOUL & that's God/Brahman/Paramatma/or

> whatever

> > one wants to call. Jivaatmaa (embodies Soul), born of Parmatma

> > (Supreme Consciousness) (BG 15:7), is Parmatma just like animal

> born

> > of animal? While living in world we have to behave with everyone

> > according to worldly rules - one can't behave same way with

child,

> > husband/wife, friend, servent, etc. but in our mind we have to be

> > aware of the presence of same soul in all.

> >

> > Just like space is present everywhere, God being subtler is

present

> > everywhere so how can THAT be not in the one who is seeing, seen

> and

> > sought? When one merges in God, differences dissolve, one is

> united

> > yet in the same unity, many resides (cups and water in big

bucket).

> > When a doll made of salt goes into ocean, no doll remains, it

> becomes

> > ocean itself, right? Same thing happens when one merges in God,

> one

> > becomes God.

> >

> > Enough to contemplate for now...

> > humble regards,

> > always at Thy Divine Feet

> >

> > Manjula Patel

> > --------------------------------

--

> --

> > Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

> > I can appreciate questions raised by Ashokji. I make an attempt

as

> > best as I know them to be based on my experience.

> > Let us first understand what is this " I " that I call myself and

the

> > world I see? This has to be based by looking at the actual

> > experience, and not just accepting what religions or scriptures

say

> > about it in the manner we gather information When we experience

any

> > object, see that it is in terms of raw sensations created by

organs

> > of perceptions such as seeing-forms, hearing-sound, smelling-

smell,

> > touching- sensations, tasting-tastes. These are fed to mind which

> > recognizes through memory, conceiving the object with a name

which

> is

> > just a thought. Thus all our experiences are conceived thoughts

in

> our

> > consciousness(mind) about those objects, be them gross objects or

> > subtle such as me, mine, my beliefs, my opinions, my house, etc.

We

> > cannot experience own body and world without being conscious of

> them.

> > What happens, then, is that we equate the consciousness of such

> > perceived objects with the outside objects and think they are

there

> > regardless of we perceive them or not. This is our first fallacy.

> Of

> > course objects do exist in and of themselves, in the wholeness,

> not as

> > separate such as my body, a chair or a dog, or ocean, mountain,

> etc.

> > Separation is in mind as conventions for conducting life. We

cannot

> > experience them as such but we can nevertheless understand them

> being

> > consciousness when dealing with them enabling us to be detached.

> The

> > world is inside us, in consciousness!

> > What is allegedly outside cannot be known in and of itself! Thus

> > everything is consciousness of those " things " including I and the

> > world as we experience. In the light of this discovery, Bhagwan

and

> > bhakta, killer and killed, rapist and victim, all are

Consciousness

> > (Atman-soul-I, Brahman, God). Thus the whole world is experienced

> as

> > ourselves only, being the Consciousness we are!

> > This has to be experientially understood first. This is the

> > UNDERSTANDING – Gyan which is behind the proclamation of Sages in

> all

> > ages " Everything is God " .

> >

> > Remember this is the understanding in the mind, not that one will

> see

> > God of his or her own imagination everywhere! One will continue

to

> > see dog as dog, tree as tree and so forth, but now with right

> > understanding behind same experiences as before. Nothing has

> changed

> > out there, and yet everything has changed upside down. Now we can

> say

> > when such a person acts in daily life, it is this understanding

> that

> > really acts on his behalf, not an individual person. So the

> > appropriate response is given to killer, or rapist at the time

> > incidents happen guided by such wisdom. One cannot speculate one

> way

> > or the other as to what should be response should this happen to

> me.

> > It could be to run away or to fight or do whatever appropriate.

> > Mahabharat war is an example of such a response by Pandavas based

> on

> > wisdom imparted by Krishna to Arjuna : Fighting for justice to

all

> > and establish dharma for future generations, killing was deemed

to

> be

> > appropriate action, specially after all failed attempts to avoid

> > killings. After all as Krishna says, death is to perceived bodies

> and

> > sense of ego, no one really dies in such death. One is

> Consciousness

> > which Is one's True Being and therefore Bliss!

> >

> > I think such questions as raised here must be asked. However,

they

> > are answered better with inquiry leading to Truth of oneself and

> the

> > world provided one is prone to Knowledge – Gyan approach.

> >

> > Pratap Bhatt

> > --------------------------------

--

> -

> >

> > Pure intellect, pure love even towards people who hate you.

> > Pure action (means doing Karma without expecting fruits of

action)

> > Pur actions are what saints, rishis did and Nis Kama Prema Bakthi

> > manifested in their hearts and Bagavan was behind those bakthas.

> > Examples:

> > Baktha Gora : Choped his hands for love of God` s Name.

> > Sant Sakubai left her home to Panderpur,

but

> > Bagavan served as a servant in her place in the home.

> > There are numerous histories. Read Baktha vijayam.

> > B.Sathyanarayan

> >

> > --------------------------------

--

> -

> > , " sadhak_insight "

> > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > >

> > > RAM SE BARA RAM KA NAAM.

> > >

> > > (God's name is equivalent to God Himself)

> > >

> > > Hari Motwani

> > >

> > > ------------------------------

--

> ---

> > -

> > >

> > > The Word " God " is only an imagination. It is not factual. If it

> be a

> > > fact then there cannot be a 1000 varieties of God. When we talk

> or

> > > discuss about a subject or an object , first we should have a

> > > specific, clear and universal definition of that word / object.

> If

> > > there be a thousand definitions and a thousand objects

> pertaining to

> > > that word, what discussion can you have? Each one will be

talking

> > off

> > > at a tangent. And each one will assert that his concept of "

> God "

> > is

> > > correct !!! such discussion will only lead to untter confusion

or

> > > madness.

> > > Therefore, Vedas, upanishads and the Geeta which are

> the " Pramanas "

> > > for any discussion have to be followed. The Mahavakya of Vedas

> > > is " Tatva Masi " " Aham Brahmasmi "

> > > meaning " That thou Art " , " I am Brahman " . It is the

> equivalent of

> > > what the great scientist Einstein, after great tapas for 10

years

> > > discovered that E=MC2 . It follows that E is Formless Brahman

=

> M

> > is

> > > matter x the speed of light squared. This shows that Brahman is

> > both -

> > > without attributes and form - Nirguna [ E ] and also with

> > > attributes and form - saguna [ M ]. Brahman can be in the form

> of E

> > > or as M.

> > >

> > > Therefore, we mortals who are in the form of M should blow out

> like

> > > the atom bomb and annihilate the body - Mind - Ego and become

> the

> > > pure energy where nothing else except the pure energy in the

> form of

> > > SAT - CHIT - ANANDA (Existence, Consciousness and Bliss

Absolute)

> > > exists which is second to none.

> > >

> > > Therefore, our duty (Kartavya) is to annihilate the Body Mind

and

> > Ego

> > > [Aham ] and become that formless " ENERGY " . That is all to this

> > > discussion. This is my understanding of the voice of VEDAS.

> > >

> > > Ramchander Homma

> > >

> > > ------------------------------

--

> ---

> > > My pranaams to fellow sadhaks,

> > >

> > > I am indeed glad to see some learned thoughts and views coming

> > across

> > > in this subject that I had reluctantly raised. Manjula ji's

has

> > > taken time off to illustrate in detail on specific areas of my

> > > original request. I must apologize to her for a serious

> > > typographical error committed in one of the paras which read as

> > > under :

> > >

> > > " God to pay attention to my prayers and reply back by way of

> little

> > > incidents and developments that are not always as I wished to

> > > experience. "

> > >

> > > This I pray should be read as under

> > >

> > > God to pay attention to my prayers and reply back by way of

> little

> > > incidents and developments that are almost as I wished to

> > > experience. "

> > >

> > > The term Not had crept in inadvertently. In nutshell , what I

> > > wanted to say was I felt unrelenting, simple Bhakti has the

> powers

> > > to compel to pay attention and reply by way of influencing

> > > situations we wished it to be in our life. Such a development

> not

> > > only brings in positive attitude but compels a Bhatha to

> surrender

> > > before Him.

> > >

> > > I look forward to more such valuable pearls of wisdom

> > >

> > > regards

> > >

> > > Dhamarajaiyer

> > > ------------------------------

--

> > > Dear Friends,

> > > Pranaam, Namasthe and Namaskaar !!! (hope, I would not be

listed

> > into any sect of Sanatana Dharma for greetings... recently I

heard

> > that even " there is no universal greetings codes in sanatana

> dharma " ,

> > as all the above words have been patented by different sects /

> > groups !!! How funny and how fallen all of us have become... !!!)

> > >

> > > The science of the " All-pervading ATMA " is beautifully

explained

> by

> > Lord Krishna (Yogeeshwar Krishna) in the 2nd Chapter of Bhagavad

> > Gita. The Law of Karma and Karma Yoga are also beautifully

> explained

> > by Him in the following chapters. After explaining the quality

of

> > INDESTRUCTIBILITY OF ATMA, Lord Krishna asks Arjuna to get up and

> > fight. Did anyone think as to why this piece of advice is given

by

> > Lord Krishna ?

> > >

> > > Again, Jnaana Yoga coupled with Karma Yoga (Karma Yoga followed

> > after imbibing the true knowledge of the life of science that is

> > Jnaana Yoga), Raja Yoga and finally Bhakti Yoga are all

beautifully

> > explained by Lord Krishna.

> > >

> > > After repeated readings, one has to truly meditate upon the

> lessons

> > given by Him in Bhagavad Gita to remove the veil of ignorance

that

> > makes one asks the questions like those raised by Aadaraneeya

> Ashokji

> > in his mail. All the answers are in Bhagavad Gita. One can

select

> > and adopt whatever suits one's aptitude and quality. A person of

> any

> > level of intelligence would be able to pick up some knowledge

which

> > would positively help to move forward in the spiritual quest,

which

> > exists in everyone at different levels of potency. Some

> relentlessly

> > seek, some casually seek, some of them do not seek at all.

> > >

> > > I can answer the questions raised by Shri Ashokji, but I would

> not

> > colour the TRUTHS discoursed by Lord Krishna (Yogeeshwar Krishna)

> > with my own interpretations. To some extent, the answers have

been

> > given by me above. It is for Shri Ashokji himself to find out

the

> > answers as he seems to possess high level of intelligence.

> > >

> > > With best regards,

> > > vm (vavamenon)

> > > ------------------------------

--

> -

> > > " Ashok T. Jaisinghani " <ashokjai@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Can a Killer or Rapist be also considered as God?

> > >

> > > Please refer to your message of March 12 with the

> title, " Which

> > is powerful - Bhakthi or Bhagawan (God)? "

> > >

> > > It is absolutely confusing for anyone to believe that " Not

> > seeking difference between the God and ourselves is Bhakti. Then

> how

> > can it be different from the seeker or the sought. In Bhakti, the

> > seeker, the sought as well as the seeking process are all unified

> to

> > The Unity. " Can the seeker and the sought really be unified to

The

> > Unity?

> > >

> > > Is it right to believe that " One who sees oneself in

> everything

> > is obviously The Everything - The God - as such. " How can one be

> > Everything or even God?

> > >

> > > Is it also right to believe that " One who has attained The

> > Unity alone is worthy of being praised as a Bhakta as he cannot

see

> > anything other than himself in everything. "

> > >

> > > Can a person who is attacked by a killer see himself in the

> > killer? Should the person not defend himself because he should

> > consider even the killer as God?

> > >

> > > Should a man do nothing when a rapist is raping his wife?

> > Should the man consider the rapist as God, or is the wife

the " God "

> > who does not need to be defended? Should the man be a mere

observer

> > who feels nothing and does nothing? If everything and everyone is

> > God, and God is everything and everyone, no action is required!

The

> > man witnessing the rape is God, the rapist is also God and the

> raped

> > wife is also God!

> > >

> > > Please clarify, as they seem so confusing and absurd to all

> the

> > human beings like me who can only have limited intelligence?

> > >

> > > With best regards,

> > > Ashok T. Jaisinghani.

> > >

> > >

> > > ------------------------------

--

> -

> > > , " sadhak_insight "

> > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Certainly Bhagwan (God) is more powerful as everything is His

> > grace.

> > > > Bhakti (devotion, worship, divine love) is a medium to

> experience

> > > > Him. We cannot call bhakti as more powerful, as it varies

from

> > > > individual to individual. Degree of surrender , love ,

> commitment

> > > etc

> > > > varies. But still irrespective of a particular degree bhakti

is

> > > there

> > > > in all human being, whether one notice or not. Cause of

bhakti

> > > (devotion, worship) is bhagwan (God) but cause of bhagwan (God)

> is

> > > not bhakti.

> > > >

> > > > samir sharma

> > > >

> > > > ----------------------------

--

> ---

> > -

> > > > Loving Divine,

> > > > Pranam.

> > > >

> > > > " God to pay attention to my prayers and reply back by way of

> > little

> > > > incidents and developments that are not always as I wished to

> > > > experience. "

> > > >

> > > > BG 2:48-51, 12:12 - karmafal tyaag is shreshtha (letting go

of

> > > > expectations/fruits of action is great). Because of this the

> > > actions

> > > > performed are free of selfish motive. If the clay statue is

> not

> > put

> > > > in fire, it does not gain it's strength! Perfection comes

> after

> > > many

> > > > finishing touches...! One should be thankful to God for

> granting

> > > > these experiences as they prove to be - great learning

lessons

> > which

> > > > will help a person to mature in his/her bhakti, karma and

> jyaan.

> > > > They are the experiences that one needed the most for his/her

> > > > spiritual evolution.

> > > > Great help in one's all round development. They provide us

the

> > > > opportunities to evaluate our own strength and weaknesses.

> > > > great means to let go of our expectations and become free of

> those

> > > > samsakars.

> > > > Great opportunities to expand our vision, heart and

> understanding

> > by

> > > > accepting all of His creation.

> > > > Little tests for us - how firm we are in our faith.

> > > >

> > > > " I continue to practise Bhakthi in the simplistic manner

> possible

> > > > without exageration or lavishness. "

> > > > Bhakti is devotion towards God = unconditional love = inner

> > feelings

> > > > = complete faith = total surrender = absolute knowledge, so

it

> has

> > > > nothing to do with performing anything as performing happens

> with

> > > > senses, doership, ego.

> > > >

> > > > Try to understand these slokas - BG 2:25, 3:34, 4:9, 5:8-9.

> Upon

> > > > dawning of total knowledge true bhakti springs! When there

is

> > total

> > > > surrender, the absolute knowledge dawns! Performing is an

act

> of

> > > ego

> > > > and that's why the result comes to us in the manner we don't

> want

> > > > them to be. The feeling of bhakti has been expressed by many

> > > bhaktas

> > > > as 'God, I am your servant (Sevak, Daas/Daasi).' I am using

> this

> > > > expression intentionally so that one can understand the

extent

> of

> > > > surrender, non-expectations, and acceptance one feels. In

> other

> > > > words, I did my duty, I am happy in whatever condition you

> keep me

> > > > in - 'Jaahi vidhi raakhe Raam, taahi vidhi rahiye...'. As

> Swami

> > > > Ramsukhdasji Maharaj has been saying - mere tou Giridhar

Gopaal

> > > > dusaraa naa koi - any and everything is for Him only and

> whatever

> > > > comes back accept it as His prasad only - it is all You O

God,

> > > > nothing belongs to me.

> > > >

> > > > " But I always feel that whatever I did inadequate and should

> have

> > > > done it better. "

> > > > Patram, Pushpam, Falam, Toyam... (BG 9:26). In other words,

> rest

> > > > assured that God is accepting it all whatever you are

offering

> to

> > > > Him - your bhakti (devotion - love that you express

inwardly),

> > karma

> > > > (action - selfless service to others or action in the form of

> > > > chanting, meditation, etc.), and gyaan (knowledge - with

> whatever

> > > you

> > > > know to do to make God happy). Continue with the total

faith,

> > > > eventually, all of what one is doing becomes more and more

> refined

> > > or

> > > > subtle resulting in self awareness, leading to these deep

> > > > understanding of Vasudevam sarvam... comes.

> > > >

> > > > humble regards,

> > > > always at Thy Holy Feet

> > > >

> > > > Manjula Patel

> > > >

> > > > ----------------------------

--

> ---

> > > >

> > > > This is my humble opinion. Bhakhi (devotion to God) is a

> process

> > of

> > > > understanding God with one's innermost self.

> > > > Once you start this, you will forget everything about your

own

> > self

> > > > and your mind becomes completely calm. In that state, you do

> not

> > > have

> > > > any feeling for any need or want to need anything . In that

> state,

> > > > whatever happens, you are not affected by it at all since ur

> mind

> > is

> > > > already calm. Hence, sometimes, we feel, we et our reply

> back..but

> > > > what i feel is, once we get immersed in devotion to God,

> whatever

> > > > happens external to us does not bother us anymore since we

feel

> > > happy

> > > > inside. But due to this feeling, we come to understand that

> > Bhakthi

> > > > has answered our questions.(Yes, Bhakthi was the first step

for

> > all

> > > > this ). Usually our mind is always fluctuationg and hence

when

> we

> > > > come out of that state of devotion, we again, now and then,

> feel

> > > > life's ups and downs. So, meditation/praying/any sort of

one's

> > > > practice to remember that SUPREME will slowly makes one

> understand

> > > > that the continuous though of the supreme will keep our mind

> > > > continuously calm which eventually makes our hear full of

peace

> > all

> > > > the time. What I mean to say is: having the attitude of

> devotion

> > > > towards God in all our actions of life..whatever actions we

do.

> > > > Regards,

> > > > Bharathi

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > ----------------------------

--

> ---

> > > >

> > > > , " sadhak_insight "

> > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > Dear Sadhak,

> > > > >

> > > > > This confusion is commonly felt amongst many spiritual

> seekers.

> > If

> > > > > we see difference between Bhakti, Bhagwan and Bhakta, we

> neither

> > > > > know ourselves (the Bhakta under one's own claim), nor The

> > Bhagwan

> > > > > and never the Bhakti. Not seeking difference between the

God

> and

> > > > > ourselves is Bhakti. Then how can it be different from the

> > seeker

> > > or

> > > > > the sought. In Bhakti, the seeker, the sought as well as

the

> > > seeking

> > > > > process are all unified to The Unity. In such case, how

can a

> > > Bhakta

> > > > > have any expectation? .. and from whom? Therefore, your

> > statement

> > > > > that " I am waiting for a reply for my prayer " is self

> > > contradictory.

> > > > > Bhakti does not need a reply ... IT IS THE REPLY BY ITSELF!

> > > > >

> > > > > Ishopanishad:

> > > > >

> > > > > Yastu sarvani bhutani aatmanyevanupashyate

> > > > > Sarvabhuteshu chaatmanam tato na vjugupsate.

> > > > >

> > > > > Bhakti enables us to mitigate differences between us and

the

> > > world.

> > > > > One who sees oneself in everything is obviously The

> Everything -

> > > The

> > > > > God - as such. Thence, how can he have any room for doubts

> and

> > > > > disappointments. The presence of the doubts and

> disappointments

> > > are

> > > > > the symptomes of the lack of Bhakti. To notice that is

> > wonderful -

> > > > > we get a chance to correct ourselves.

> > > > >

> > > > > Yastu sarvani bhutani aatmaivabhudvijanatah

> > > > > Tatra ko mohah kah shokah ekatvamanupashyatah

> > > > >

> > > > > One who has attained The Unity alone is worthy of being

> praised

> > > as a

> > > > > Bhakta as he cannot see anything other than himself in

> > everything.

> > > > > Then how can he lack anything in life? Then how can the

> > emotional

> > > > > instability enter him in terms of sadness and happiness.

> Bhakti

> > > > > enables us to balance ourselves at peace perpetually.

> Presence

> > of

> > > > > emotions indicates lack of peace. Lack of peace indicates

> lack

> > of

> > > > > Bhakti. Again, it is wonderful to notice that since we get

an

> > > > > opportunity to correct ourselves.

> > > > >

> > > > > Respects.

> > > > >

> > > > > Naga Narayana.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > --------------------------

--

> ---

> > --

> > > --

> > > > > Your experience is reverential. Bhakti is like gravitation

of

> > > earth

> > > > > and it pulls every object to it but if the object is tied

up

> > with

> > > > > something, pulling force of earth becomes ineffective. God

is

> > > > > powerful as earth but because we are detached with existing

> > > > > illusions and thus cannot have an experience of pull of the

> god.

> > > > > Bhakti is like gravitation of the earth and not a property

of

> > > > > object. This means, Sri Krishna is that gravitational pull,

> and

> > > not

> > > > > us. Our objective should be only to surrender to the pull

of

> > > bhakti

> > > > > of Sri Krishna, and not get afraid of loosing attachment

with

> > > things

> > > > > that hold us.

> > > > >

> > > > > I want to repeat in heart this senario of Krishna trying to

> > catch

> > > > > us, but we have many excuses of knowledge, work and

penance.

> I

> > > write

> > > > > in English what Sri Krishna says Himself in chapter 5

> > > > >

> > > > > Tapasibhyo dhiko yogi, zyanibhyopi matodikah

> > > > > karmabhyasi dhiko yogi, tasmat yogi bhavarjuna

> > > > >

> > > > > Be in a senario that Sri Krishna is 'nana' or maternal

grand

> > > father,

> > > > > His daughter is the prakriti and we all are the child of

> > prakriti

> > > > > and in a way, grand child of Sri Krishna. Like all

children,

> we

> > > too

> > > > > are close to 'nana' and try to please Him by hard work

> (tapah),

> > > by

> > > > > rigrous studies (zyana) and by doing work (karma)

but 'nana'

> Sri

> > > > > Krishna says do nothng, just come to me. Nothing is

> necessary to

> > > > > qualify love our own 'nana'. He is desperate and we like

> > children

> > > > > display our skill and knowledge to Him, unnecesarily.

> > > > >

> > > > > Bhakti is not our responsibility, our responsibility is

just

> not

> > > > > have defenses and worries for ourselves. If we worry for

> > ourselves

> > > > > and defenses and mind is engaged in calculations, pull of

Sri

> > > > > Krishna is ineffective. Bhagwat Gita is not a prayer book,

> it is

> > > not

> > > > > a book promoting dogmas and business of temples, flowers,

> > > > > loudspeakers and offering sweets to idols and TV serials.

It

> is

> > > > > unfortunate that it is hijacked by religious sects calling

in

> > > Hindu

> > > > > and so on, and diverting minds from bhakti as devotion to

> > > > > independent self nature.

> > > > >

> > > > > Bhakti is being in state of non defense, and non

expectation

> and

> > > > > non pleasing/ unpleasing to anyone real or imaginary. This

> > > silence

> > > > > and awareness and unattached observation shows how Sri

> Krishna

> > > > > quickly comes to you. Just see how you get saved from

trouble

> > when

> > > > > did not expected it. This is Bhakti. Bhakti = non defense.

> > > > >

> > > > > Regards

> > > > > K G

> > > > > Krishna Gopal

> > > > >

> > > > > --------------------------

--

> ---

> > --

> > > --

> > > > -

> > > > > Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

> > > > >

> > > > > Bhakthi is generally understood as total Devotion to God.

> God in

> > > > > some forms is more suitable at least in the beginning so

the

> > mind

> > > > > can focus. My understanding is that it is essential to have

> > total,

> > > > > unbroken, and Unconditional Trust in God that whatever

> happens

> > or

> > > > > doesn't happen is alright the way it unfolds.

> > > > > As one worships, does japas, chants mantras, does

> meditation, or

> > > > > goes to temples or whatever one does in earnest, there is a

> > > humility

> > > > > and surrender feelings already present. Humility and

> surrender

> > > makes

> > > > > one egoless-free of me sense, and allows Bhagwan who is

> already

> > > > > hiding behind ego waiting to step in and change devotee's

> mind

> > to

> > > > > see correctly, and respond appropriately in the midst of

> adverse

> > > > > situations.

> > > > > (Mahabharata war was such a response on the part of

> > > > > Pandavas!)

> > > > > In such a state, mind becomes desireless, carefree,

peaceful,

> > > > > satisfied, and ultimately fulfiled from within that nothing

> from

> > > > > outside is needed. However, material needs of such a

devotee

> is

> > > > > provided through adopting to his/her vyavsayas(job engaged

> in).

> > It

> > > > is

> > > > > never his/her problem. It is God who intervenes through

> > spiritual

> > > > > laws, called miracles! Krishna affirms this in Gita

(9:22) " He

> > (God-

> > > > > Supreme Consciousness) provides necessities and security

for

> > > > > such devout Bhaktas " .

> > > > > I am humbled by such small miracles on a personal level!

> > > > > Bhakta, Bhakti and Bhagwan are all but one Experience of

> > > fulfilment

> > > > > (being purna in oneself as one is) in the ultimate sense.

> True

> > > > > bhakti descends so to speak, when the understanding of God-

> > > > > Consciousness as Reality of Devotee and devotion dawns!

> > > > > Namaskars ... Pratap Bhatt

> > > > > --------------------------

--

> ---

> > --

> > > > >

> > > > > Dear Divine Souls.

> > > > >

> > > > > my humble parnaams !

> > > > >

> > > > > As Dear Sadhak has raised the questions, I am giving some

> > > > > experiences of the person I Know kuldip..

> > > > > When we tread on the Path of Love and Intimacy called as

> Bhakti

> > > > > marg, we have to understand only one thing.

> > > > >

> > > > > Love means giving your self completely, without any demand,

> or

> > > > > anything in exchange of our Surrender.

> > > > > It Has to be Complete giving of yourself to the Lord...

> > > > >

> > > > > God gives gifts to those who demands wordly gifts, but

those

> who

> > > > > donot ssk for anything, God provides everything ! including

> > > > > God gives Himself to HIS Loving Devotees..this is True..

> > > > > Try and you will see !

> > > > >

> > > > > my regards

> > > > > eternal child.

> > > > > kuldip

> > > > >

> > > > > --------------------------

--

> ---

> > -

> > > > >

> > > > > , " sadhak_insight "

> > > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Dear Sadhak friends,

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Pranaams to you all,

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I think this topic is within the constitution of this

> group.

> > If

> > > > > so,

> > > > > > May we start discussing this issue that is keeping me

> curious

> > > for

> > > > > > quite some time.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I feel privileged and blessed to come across some

excellent

> > > > > articles

> > > > > > through this divine platform in the past. I am not an

> > exponent

> > > or

> > > > > > a truely enlightened individual. But I am keen to come

to

> a

> > > > > > logical conclusion in this subject at the earliest.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I have been experiencing on a personal level that Bhakthi

> at

> > > times

> > > > > > compels God to pay attention to my prayers and reply back

> by

> > way

> > > > of

> > > > > > little incidents and developments that are not always as

I

> > > wished

> > > > > to

> > > > > > experience. I continue to practise Bhakthi in the

> simplistic

> > > > > manner

> > > > > > possible without exxageration or lavishness. But I

always

> > feel

> > > > > that

> > > > > > whatever I did indadequate and should have done it

better.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I humbly look upon to the learned sadhaks who may wish to

> > bring

> > > > > > forward their views more formally for the better

> enlightenment

> > > of

> > > > > > the fellow sadhaks.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > May God Bless you all

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Dharmarajaiyer

> > > > > >

> > > > > > ------------------------

--

> ---

> > --

> > > --

> > > > > > GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES:

> > > > > > 1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify their

> > doubts

> > > > > > related to Gitaji shalokas. Therefore, responses which

> further

> > > > > > clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be posted.

> > > > > > 2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other

> scriptures

> > to

> > > > > > substantiate your response.

> > > > > > 3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc.

> to

> > the

> > > > > > extent that they further help in understanding the Gita

> > shlokas

> > > > > > 4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible,

> > respecting

> > > > > > sadhaka's time.

> > > > > > 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only.

> > > > > > 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or

other

> > > > > > organizations.

> > > > > > 7. Kindly do not include your personal information such

as

> > phone

> > > > > > number, address etc.

> > > > > > 8. Please do not address the response to a particular

> > individual

> > > > > > since the message is going to the entire group.

> > > > > > 9. Due to the large readership, all responses may not be

> > posted.

> > > > > > 10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting,

if

> > > > content

> > > > > > is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the

> group.

> > > > > > 11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices,

> > youth,

> > > > > > westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use

to

> > > > > Sanskrit

> > > > > > words only, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit

> > > > bracketed

> > > > > > wherever possible.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > MODERATOR

> > > > > > Ram Ram

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>