In Actuality is the Body truly separate from the Soul ? How to realize this ?

March 30, 2008

respected shriman ji

jai shri ram ki

It is fact that body and soul (atma) are both separate, but in

actuality is it really so ? Is it only external knowledge or is

this knowledge from within? Is this internally realized by anyone

in this world? If there is, then tell me - How does one become

freed from this illusion of maya ? This does not seem something

that is within my reach.

Daily I seem to be getting more deeply trapped. Demands of this

body, demands of the family, and who knows who all we keep running

after day in and day out. If we do not run around for worldly work,

then daily there are new fights, wife says why are you running away

to satsangs ? Our God is in our home, where is your God ? If I do

name recitation (nama japa), she says - becoming like an ascetic,

simply sitting, not wanting to do any work at home, this is a good

way to escape the chores. Now, you only tell me what to do ? Is

this how the world is ?

I beg you to please show me the way.

Let there be God's immmense grace and blessing,

jai ram ji ki

B.R.Bishnoi

IN HINDI .........

dono alag alag hain parntu esa atuality main nahi hota hain kya

problem hain,bahari gyan hain under ka esa gyan nahi hain.under ke

gyan ko koi hain kya es dunia main,adi hain to bata do muge .maya se

sutkara kase ho sakat hain, mere bas ki to bat hain nahi har pal aur

gahare dal-dal main fasta jaraha haun.sarir ki demand, parivar ki

demand aur na jane kis -kis ke liye har pal bhagte rahate hain. nahi

bhage to nit naya jagada,patni kahati hain kyon bhagte ho satsang ke

liye ,hamara bhagwan to hamare ghar main hain, tumara bhagwan kahan

hain!nam jap karo to kahati hain ki baba ji banjao, bus beth gye

hain,ghar ka koi kam nahi karna hain ,acha tarika hain pichha surane

ka, bhakti ke nam se dhong karte raho, maje se ankh bandh karke so

jao. ab mujhe ap batayega kya karana , esi duniya ka.

ap marg darshan karne ki ati kripa kare.

prabhu ki bahoot-bahoot kripa ho

jai ram ji ki

B.R.Bishnoi

FROM THE MODERATOR

The following are the guidelines for Gita-Talk discussions.

GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES:

1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify their doubts

related to Gitaji shalokas. Therefore, responses which further

clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be posted.

2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to

substantiate your response.

3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the

extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas

4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting

sadhaka's time.

5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only.

6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other

organizations.

7. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone

number, address etc.

8. Please do not address the response to a particular individual

since the message is going to the entire group.

9. Due to the large readership, all responses may not be posted.

10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if content

is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the group.

11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth,

westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use to Sanskrit

words only, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit bracketed

wherever possible.

MODERATOR

Ram Ram

March 31, 2008

Dear fellow travellers

All of us are YOGA BHRASHT and thus are born and dying repeatedly

only to have correct knowledge before eachone of us pass the test

and getting ourselves relieved of the burden of memory of our past

and future obligations. The main job of life is therefore to learn

what we must learn to get salvation; or in other words, remain

defect free so that none is looking for us, neither do we look for

others. And nothing is to learn from outside but thinking or

upasate. Upanishad says: Atma nay moksharthe, jagat hitay cha i.e.,

help yourself for nirvan and is help everyone else. All people are

similaly cursed to live inside creation of their own mind.

If you believe in Sri Krisna, all is His responsibility. The world

is a CHITT (picture, drawing) of Sri Krishna. With the breath

(SANKALP) of Sri Krishna (MAD GATAH PRAANA), look at the world

around, and try understanding it (BODHYANTAH) with Him together

(PARASPARAM).

This world is very uncertain and incomprehensible and like a room

full of darkness. You must therefore keep talking to Sri Krishna

constantly (KATHAYATACH MAAM NITYAH) so that the fear of existence

of darkness does not affect you, and be sure and satisfied in the

world (TUSHYANTI CHA) and in this condition keep doing (RAMANTI CHA)

whatever is necessary, and wanted.

MAT CHITTAH MAD GATAH PRAANA

BODHYANTAH PARASPARAM

KATHAYATAH SCH MAAM NITYAH

TUSHAYATI CHA RAMANTI CHA.

- Bhagwat Gita

Best regards

K G

(Krishna Gopal)

-

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

If one were to say ya, body and atma are separate, or no, body and

atma are one and not separate, it would probably mean little. To be

able to answer correctly, one need to know experientially what Atma-

Soul is first, right? We think we know our body but that also

is doubtful. Our knowledge of body is generally limited to pleasures

we derive from it. This doesn't leave us any time to investigate the

most important dimension of our living, which is to know the truth of

myself.

Suppose I find the truth of " I " , " me " and " mine " and therefore by

implication the truth of what is " not-me " and the apparant world. I

will be living my daily life according to this truth and definitely

not based on what I now believe, right? This Truth happens to be

that " I " is Awareness in which body, thoughts, feelings, and all

objects I call " mine " or " not mine " arise to disappear.

Unfortunately I consider myself to be body with mind, and an

independent entity.

SO first we have to see this I is different from everything I is

aware of. We are the Awareness or Consciousness in which our world

appears as perceptions and conceptions having names and forms(nama,

rupah) and therefore different from it. Perceived and conceived

objects including our own body come and go with every thought or

feelings whereas Awareness is always there even while dream, and

sleep states of mind-body organism. See and feel the truth

of this, as it is our experience right now as these words are being

read.

We have to be Awareness because that is the only permanent aspect of

our living. As such we are separate from body. Now having understood

this first, the discrimination takes place in us, " I " am Awareness,

not what I am aware of, the objects including body I call mine.

Then all objects I thus perceive are made up of thoughts only as we

experience them! World cannot be experienced independent of Being

Aware! Tables, chairs, mountains, oceans, forests all are perceived

and conceived thoughts in our Awareness and therefore are one with

It again as I experience them. So everything we experience is One

Awareness appearing as apparantly different objects, but in reality

of our experience is One and not separate from Awareness.

This is when Sages say everything is Ishwara, or Vasudevam servam

iti.

Awareness experiences Awareness, God sees God everywhere. Thus Body

is not separate from Atma same as Awareness or Supreme Consciousness-

God as Swamiji calls it.

This realization takes care of problems of dealing with the world

out there let alone one's own spouse!

Namaskar.....Pratap

(Pratap Bhatt)

---

namasthe Bishnoi ji,

This is my humble opinion. please do not think that you are getting

more deeply trapped at all. after all, we are are in this life.

Also, as ur wife mentioned, you need not had to do satsang when u

are having work at home..once all ur duties at home everything is

done, and then if have time, you can do satsung or do anything which

you wanted. please you can SURRENDER all your duties in ur home, all

ur worldly duties which u feel u are supposed to do, SURRENDER all

of them as a worship to that God. ..and that is the HIGHEST form of

worship.

In 6.1 (Dhyana yoga chapter of Bhagavadgita), God says:He who

performs his duty without depending on the fruits of actions - he is

a sannyasin, not the one who does not light the sacred fire, and

performs no rites.

( Here sannyasin means => not the person who is not married or do

not have anything to do or simply sits and meditates..the meaning

goes like this: brahmacharya : state of moving/exploring all of

existance. sanyasa: san- wholy, nyasa- established/rooted in ' that

divinity or brahman'.

sacred fire/rites means => one's own duties )

In the vese 9.27, God says, whatever you eat, whatever you do,

whatever you offer as oblation to sacred fire, whatever you give out

as charity, OFFER it all onto Me (Supreme Consciousness).

So, u need not had to think that u need to go to temple, or do

satsung to understand God. Just doing whatever duties that you have

either by choice or by circumstances, we can offer everything to

that God remembering as that SOURCE of all what we have, and behind

all what we are able to do, and also the reason of all our

duties/families/responsibilities and let go to that SUPREME with all

the respect and devotion.

have a nice wonderful day.

Regards,

Bharathi

-

, " sadhak_insight "

<sadhak_insight wrote:

>

> respected shriman ji

> jai shri ram ki

>

> It is fact that body and soul (atma) are both separate, but in

> actuality is it really so ? Is it only external knowledge or is

> this knowledge from within? Is this internally realized by anyone

> in this world? If there is, then tell me - How does one become

> freed from this illusion of maya ? This does not seem something

> that is within my reach.

>

> Daily I seem to be getting more deeply trapped. Demands of this

> body, demands of the family, and who knows who all we keep

running

> after day in and day out. If we do not run around for worldly

work,

> then daily there are new fights, wife says why are you running

away

> to satsangs ? Our God is in our home, where is your God ? If I

do

> name recitation (nama japa), she says - becoming like an ascetic,

> simply sitting, not wanting to do any work at home, this is a good

> way to escape the chores. Now, you only tell me what to do ? Is

> this how the world is ?

>

> I beg you to please show me the way.

>

> Let there be God's immmense grace and blessing,

> jai ram ji ki

> B.R.Bishnoi

>

> IN HINDI .........

>

> dono alag alag hain parntu esa atuality main nahi hota hain kya

> problem hain,bahari gyan hain under ka esa gyan nahi hain.under ke

> gyan ko koi hain kya es dunia main,adi hain to bata do muge .maya

se

> sutkara kase ho sakat hain, mere bas ki to bat hain nahi har pal

aur

> gahare dal-dal main fasta jaraha haun.sarir ki demand, parivar ki

> demand aur na jane kis -kis ke liye har pal bhagte rahate hain.

nahi

> bhage to nit naya jagada,patni kahati hain kyon bhagte ho satsang

ke

> liye ,hamara bhagwan to hamare ghar main hain, tumara bhagwan

kahan

> hain!nam jap karo to kahati hain ki baba ji banjao, bus beth gye

> hain,ghar ka koi kam nahi karna hain ,acha tarika hain pichha

surane

> ka, bhakti ke nam se dhong karte raho, maje se ankh bandh karke

so

> jao. ab mujhe ap batayega kya karana , esi duniya ka.

> ap marg darshan karne ki ati kripa kare.

> prabhu ki bahoot-bahoot kripa ho

> jai ram ji ki

> B.R.Bishnoi

>

> FROM THE MODERATOR

>

> The following are the guidelines for Gita-Talk discussions.

>

> GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES:

> 1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify their doubts

> related to Gitaji shalokas. Therefore, responses which further

> clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be posted.

> 2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to

> substantiate your response.

> 3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the

> extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas

> 4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting

> sadhaka's time.

> 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only.

> 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other

> organizations.

> 7. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone

> number, address etc.

> 8. Please do not address the response to a particular individual

> since the message is going to the entire group.

> 9. Due to the large readership, all responses may not be posted.

> 10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if

content

> is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the group.

> 11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth,

> westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use to

Sanskrit

> words only, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit

bracketed

> wherever possible.

>

> MODERATOR

> Ram Ram

>

April 1, 2008

Dear Friend:

This is a burning quest of all the seekers from the yore. Welcome to

the couldrum on the fire.

In fact, almost all the Upanishads deal with this. As I understand,

Kathopanishad provides the best outlook toward this. The death

utters, " It has been debated by even gods and has not been

understood well " . It utters, " This can be never examined and

understood by any amount of debate, analyses and discussions " . It

concludes, " It is attainable by just being that. In fact, only one

who acknowledges a possibility alone can ever attain anything " .

Kenopanishad concludes that " You are wrong if you say IT exists! You

are utterly wrong if you say IT does not exist!! It is the

existence, non-existence as well as anything else you could think of

or you cannot even think of " .

Eeshopanishad teaches us, " One who thinks IT does not exist is a

fool! One who thinks IT exists is a bigger fool!! " .

We can keep arguing about this for lives. No argument can be

conclusive. The very quest for determining the Absolute is our

foolishness. Simple logic reveals to us that anything that can be

determined by our senses and their fountain head, the mind, can

never be Absolute since the very perceptorial mechanism remains

relative and limited in its essence! One can argue that there lies a

driver within this body driving it as far as it can run since all

our perception of the body aligns with this notion! One can also

argue that the body creates an illusion of the driver since there is

no evidence for such a driver outside the realms of the body!! I

consider both the positions as mere positions that our perceptions

could generate. The perception being incomplete, lopsided and

inconsistent in its very existence – incomplete since only

superficial nature of objects are revealed in it, lopsided since the

object is never consulted and all the conclusions are drawn by the

subject unilaterally, inconsistent because seemingly unconnected

senses seem to generate impressions to relate objects – any position

that is taken by the thought process remains an illusions within

itself in its best. Hanging on to our perceptions to determine The

Truth is the ignorance a seeker could wield very often.

One cannot " have " The Truth which is Absolute since the very notion

of " having " remains relative. One can definitely " be " The Truth

since the reality is in " being " as we are, as the world is. Taking

positions is required for " having " . Having no position is the very

basis for " being " . Anything that can be possessed is relative and

debatable. Anything that is can never be questioned as no question

raises regarding its being as such. The body, the mind, the soul,

the Unmanifested, The Life … can we ever separate anyone from the

rest an examine?! If we could, then only we can dwell in the debate

of whether the body and soul are the same or not. It is the unity

across the existence that assures the sustenance of everything we

perceive as well as everything that we don't. The distinction,

demarcation and discreteness in the universal presence are

exclusively in our perception. Just because the perception is

fragmented, one cannot conclude that the universe is fragmented. One

who can break through such infinitely fractured perceptorial reality

can " be " THAT REALITY. One depends on to the fragmented perception

for " having " the reality will just wander in the wilderness of one's

own mind just like a blind man following another! Therefore, my

suggestion to you is to drop such debate in the very roots my dear

friend!

You have raised another important question that relates a seeker to

the society. This is very subtle … how and why you practice the so

called spirituality should be determined by you alone. I do not see

anything wrong in your wife's comment as she seems to be outside the

realm of your intentions and quests. Obviously your quest is not

revealed to her in its sincerity. If it had, she would also happily

join you in the journey.

Again, there is no definite path for spirituality. Thinking that one

particular method takes you there – be it the work or the worship –

remains our ignorance. The very notion that we should be taken

somewhere is our ignorance. In my experience, appreciation of one's

own nature and circumstantial position (Swadharma) is an absolute

must for a spiritual seeker. Don't get trapped by an attraction to

something alien … even it happens to be " the sacred " spirituality.

If any of your practice creates dilemma, anxiety or doubts in your

mind … question them then and there to resolve the same then and

there. The reaction from your wife is the reflection of the dilemma,

anxiety and doubts that are rooted in you. I suggest utilize the

opportunity of your wife's criticism to correct yourself. In my

opinion, that is the best approach in spirituality as well as in the

day-to-day affairs.

This is my personal opinion. Hope, it helps.

Respects

Naga Narayana.

---------------------------

There is no soul. Stop trying to make fools of people

arun kumar

---------------------------

, " sadhak_insight "

<sadhak_insight wrote:

>

> Dear fellow travellers

> All of us are YOGA BHRASHT and thus are born and dying repeatedly

> only to have correct knowledge before eachone of us pass the test

> and getting ourselves relieved of the burden of memory of our past

> and future obligations. The main job of life is therefore to learn

> what we must learn to get salvation; or in other words, remain

> defect free so that none is looking for us, neither do we look for

> others. And nothing is to learn from outside but thinking or

> upasate. Upanishad says: Atma nay moksharthe, jagat hitay cha

i.e.,

> help yourself for nirvan and is help everyone else. All people are

> similaly cursed to live inside creation of their own mind.

>

> If you believe in Sri Krisna, all is His responsibility. The world

> is a CHITT (picture, drawing) of Sri Krishna. With the breath

> (SANKALP) of Sri Krishna (MAD GATAH PRAANA), look at the world

> around, and try understanding it (BODHYANTAH) with Him together

> (PARASPARAM).

>

> This world is very uncertain and incomprehensible and like a room

> full of darkness. You must therefore keep talking to Sri Krishna

> constantly (KATHAYATACH MAAM NITYAH) so that the fear of existence

> of darkness does not affect you, and be sure and satisfied in the

> world (TUSHYANTI CHA) and in this condition keep doing (RAMANTI

CHA)

> whatever is necessary, and wanted.

>

> MAT CHITTAH MAD GATAH PRAANA

> BODHYANTAH PARASPARAM

> KATHAYATAH SCH MAAM NITYAH

> TUSHAYATI CHA RAMANTI CHA.

> - Bhagwat Gita

>

> Best regards

> K G

> (Krishna Gopal)

> -

>

> Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

> If one were to say ya, body and atma are separate, or no, body and

> atma are one and not separate, it would probably mean little. To

be

> able to answer correctly, one need to know experientially what

Atma-

> Soul is first, right? We think we know our body but that also

> is doubtful. Our knowledge of body is generally limited to

pleasures

> we derive from it. This doesn't leave us any time to investigate

the

> most important dimension of our living, which is to know the truth

of

> myself.

>

> Suppose I find the truth of " I " , " me " and " mine " and therefore by

> implication the truth of what is " not-me " and the apparant world.

I

> will be living my daily life according to this truth and

definitely

> not based on what I now believe, right? This Truth happens to be

> that " I " is Awareness in which body, thoughts, feelings, and all

> objects I call " mine " or " not mine " arise to disappear.

> Unfortunately I consider myself to be body with mind, and an

> independent entity.

> SO first we have to see this I is different from everything I is

> aware of. We are the Awareness or Consciousness in which our world

> appears as perceptions and conceptions having names and forms

(nama,

> rupah) and therefore different from it. Perceived and conceived

> objects including our own body come and go with every thought or

> feelings whereas Awareness is always there even while dream, and

> sleep states of mind-body organism. See and feel the truth

> of this, as it is our experience right now as these words are

being

> read.

> We have to be Awareness because that is the only permanent aspect

of

> our living. As such we are separate from body. Now having

understood

> this first, the discrimination takes place in us, " I " am

Awareness,

> not what I am aware of, the objects including body I call mine.

> Then all objects I thus perceive are made up of thoughts only as

we

> experience them! World cannot be experienced independent of Being

> Aware! Tables, chairs, mountains, oceans, forests all are perceived

> and conceived thoughts in our Awareness and therefore are one with

> It again as I experience them. So everything we experience is One

> Awareness appearing as apparantly different objects, but in

reality

> of our experience is One and not separate from Awareness.

> This is when Sages say everything is Ishwara, or Vasudevam servam

> iti.

> Awareness experiences Awareness, God sees God everywhere. Thus

Body

> is not separate from Atma same as Awareness or Supreme

Consciousness-

> God as Swamiji calls it.

> This realization takes care of problems of dealing with the world

> out there let alone one's own spouse!

> Namaskar.....Pratap

> (Pratap Bhatt)

>

> -

--

> namasthe Bishnoi ji,

>

> This is my humble opinion. please do not think that you are

getting

> more deeply trapped at all. after all, we are are in this life.

> Also, as ur wife mentioned, you need not had to do satsang when u

> are having work at home..once all ur duties at home everything is

> done, and then if have time, you can do satsung or do anything

which

> you wanted. please you can SURRENDER all your duties in ur home,

all

> ur worldly duties which u feel u are supposed to do, SURRENDER all

> of them as a worship to that God. ..and that is the HIGHEST form

of

> worship.

>

> In 6.1 (Dhyana yoga chapter of Bhagavadgita), God says:He who

> performs his duty without depending on the fruits of actions - he

is

> a sannyasin, not the one who does not light the sacred fire, and

> performs no rites.

>

> ( Here sannyasin means => not the person who is not married or do

> not have anything to do or simply sits and meditates..the meaning

> goes like this: brahmacharya : state of moving/exploring all of

> existance. sanyasa: san- wholy, nyasa- established/rooted in '

that

> divinity or brahman'.

>

> sacred fire/rites means => one's own duties )

>

> In the vese 9.27, God says, whatever you eat, whatever you do,

> whatever you offer as oblation to sacred fire, whatever you give

out

> as charity, OFFER it all onto Me (Supreme Consciousness).

>

> So, u need not had to think that u need to go to temple, or do

> satsung to understand God. Just doing whatever duties that you

have

> either by choice or by circumstances, we can offer everything to

> that God remembering as that SOURCE of all what we have, and

behind

> all what we are able to do, and also the reason of all our

> duties/families/responsibilities and let go to that SUPREME with

all

> the respect and devotion.

>

> have a nice wonderful day.

> Regards,

> Bharathi

>

> -

>

> , " sadhak_insight "

> <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> >

> > respected shriman ji

> > jai shri ram ki

> >

> > It is fact that body and soul (atma) are both separate, but in

> > actuality is it really so ? Is it only external knowledge or is

> > this knowledge from within? Is this internally realized by

anyone

> > in this world? If there is, then tell me - How does one become

> > freed from this illusion of maya ? This does not seem something

> > that is within my reach.

> >

> > Daily I seem to be getting more deeply trapped. Demands of this

> > body, demands of the family, and who knows who all we keep

> running

> > after day in and day out. If we do not run around for worldly

> work,

> > then daily there are new fights, wife says why are you running

> away

> > to satsangs ? Our God is in our home, where is your God ? If I

> do

> > name recitation (nama japa), she says - becoming like an

ascetic,

> > simply sitting, not wanting to do any work at home, this is a

good

> > way to escape the chores. Now, you only tell me what to do ?

Is

> > this how the world is ?

> >

> > I beg you to please show me the way.

> >

> > Let there be God's immmense grace and blessing,

> > jai ram ji ki

> > B.R.Bishnoi

> >

> > IN HINDI .........

> >

> > dono alag alag hain parntu esa atuality main nahi hota hain kya

> > problem hain,bahari gyan hain under ka esa gyan nahi hain.under

ke

> > gyan ko koi hain kya es dunia main,adi hain to bata do

muge .maya

> se

> > sutkara kase ho sakat hain, mere bas ki to bat hain nahi har pal

> aur

> > gahare dal-dal main fasta jaraha haun.sarir ki demand, parivar

ki

> > demand aur na jane kis -kis ke liye har pal bhagte rahate hain.

> nahi

> > bhage to nit naya jagada,patni kahati hain kyon bhagte ho

satsang

> ke

> > liye ,hamara bhagwan to hamare ghar main hain, tumara bhagwan

> kahan

> > hain!nam jap karo to kahati hain ki baba ji banjao, bus beth gye

> > hain,ghar ka koi kam nahi karna hain ,acha tarika hain pichha

> surane

> > ka, bhakti ke nam se dhong karte raho, maje se ankh bandh karke

> so

> > jao. ab mujhe ap batayega kya karana , esi duniya ka.

> > ap marg darshan karne ki ati kripa kare.

> > prabhu ki bahoot-bahoot kripa ho

> > jai ram ji ki

> > B.R.Bishnoi

> > --------------------------------

-

> >

> > FROM THE MODERATOR

> >

> > The following are the guidelines for Gita-Talk discussions.

> >

> > GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES:

> > 1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify their doubts

> > related to Gitaji shalokas. Therefore, responses which further

> > clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be posted.

> > 2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to

> > substantiate your response.

> > 3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the

> > extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas

> > 4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting

> > sadhaka's time.

> > 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only.

> > 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other

> > organizations.

> > 7. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone

> > number, address etc.

> > 8. Please do not address the response to a particular individual

> > since the message is going to the entire group.

> > 9. Due to the large readership, all responses may not be posted.

> > 10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if

> content

> > is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the group.

> > 11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth,

> > westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use to

> Sanskrit

> > words only, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit

> bracketed

> > wherever possible.

> >

> > MODERATOR

> > Ram Ram

> >

>

April 2, 2008

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

I am posting this just to appreciate the response of Naga Narayana.

I felt the Truth of what I read. I sure hope all of us benefit from

it, specially those of us on the path(so to speak) of Self-

knowledge. Along with his and Swamiji's message of April 1st

on " There is only God-Supreme Consciousness " touched me deeply in my

core of Being.

I am grateful to receive such messages from some other members of

the group from time to time!

Pratap in Divinity

(Pratap Bhatt)

--

What a beautiful answer for this dilemma by Naga Narayanji

And Arun Kumarji, in future please elaborate what you mean, instead

of responding with a single line.

With best wishes,

Abhinav Mehta

ESSENCE OF BHAGVAD GITA

Whatever has happened, has happened for good.

Whatever is happening, is happening for good.

Whatever is going to happen, it will be for good.

What have you lost for which you cry?

What did you bring with you, which you have lost?

What did you produce, which has been destroyed?

You did not bring anything when you were born.

Whatever you have, you have received from Him.

Whatever you will give, you will give to Him.

You came empty handed and you will go the same way.

Whatever is yours today was somebody else's yesterday and will be

somebody else's tomorrow.

SO WHY WORRY UNNECESSARILY?

Change is the law of the universe

--

Dear Divine soul

humble parnaama!

the king janak etc. Seers...

who reached the Meditative State Of Their Reality...

when one is awakened to one's True Nature...

WHEN ONE IS IN UNITY WITH All-

when one has dissolved one's ego in the ocean of BRAHMAN..

when one is one with this world.

When one is identified with all creatures.

When one has crossed all names and boundries and

when one is mere witness. Consciousness.

One has attained the Self.

i do not accept the version given by my fellow pilgrim

we are not yoga brasht..

whatever happens is ALL His Will

the world is a Leela,and not a curse.

my humble parnaamns

eternal child

kuldip suri

--

, " sadhak_insight "

<sadhak_insight wrote:

>

> Dear Friend:

>

> This is a burning quest of all the seekers from the yore. Welcome

to

> the couldrum on the fire.

>

> In fact, almost all the Upanishads deal with this. As I understand,

> Kathopanishad provides the best outlook toward this. The death

> utters, " It has been debated by even gods and has not been

> understood well " . It utters, " This can be never examined and

> understood by any amount of debate, analyses and discussions " . It

> concludes, " It is attainable by just being that. In fact, only one

> who acknowledges a possibility alone can ever attain anything " .

>

> Kenopanishad concludes that " You are wrong if you say IT exists!

You

> are utterly wrong if you say IT does not exist!! It is the

> existence, non-existence as well as anything else you could think

of

> or you cannot even think of " .

>

> Eeshopanishad teaches us, " One who thinks IT does not exist is a

> fool! One who thinks IT exists is a bigger fool!! " .

>

> We can keep arguing about this for lives. No argument can be

> conclusive. The very quest for determining the Absolute is our

> foolishness. Simple logic reveals to us that anything that can be

> determined by our senses and their fountain head, the mind, can

> never be Absolute since the very perceptorial mechanism remains

> relative and limited in its essence! One can argue that there lies

a

> driver within this body driving it as far as it can run since all

> our perception of the body aligns with this notion! One can also

> argue that the body creates an illusion of the driver since there

is

> no evidence for such a driver outside the realms of the body!! I

> consider both the positions as mere positions that our perceptions

> could generate. The perception being incomplete, lopsided and

> inconsistent in its very existence – incomplete since only

> superficial nature of objects are revealed in it, lopsided since

the

> object is never consulted and all the conclusions are drawn by the

> subject unilaterally, inconsistent because seemingly unconnected

> senses seem to generate impressions to relate objects – any

position

> that is taken by the thought process remains an illusions within

> itself in its best. Hanging on to our perceptions to determine The

> Truth is the ignorance a seeker could wield very often.

>

> One cannot " have " The Truth which is Absolute since the very notion

> of " having " remains relative. One can definitely " be " The Truth

> since the reality is in " being " as we are, as the world is. Taking

> positions is required for " having " . Having no position is the very

> basis for " being " . Anything that can be possessed is relative and

> debatable. Anything that is can never be questioned as no question

> raises regarding its being as such. The body, the mind, the soul,

> the Unmanifested, The Life … can we ever separate anyone from the

> rest an examine?! If we could, then only we can dwell in the debate

> of whether the body and soul are the same or not. It is the unity

> across the existence that assures the sustenance of everything we

> perceive as well as everything that we don't. The distinction,

> demarcation and discreteness in the universal presence are

> exclusively in our perception. Just because the perception is

> fragmented, one cannot conclude that the universe is fragmented.

One

> who can break through such infinitely fractured perceptorial

reality

> can " be " THAT REALITY. One depends on to the fragmented perception

> for " having " the reality will just wander in the wilderness of

one's

> own mind just like a blind man following another! Therefore, my

> suggestion to you is to drop such debate in the very roots my dear

> friend!

>

> You have raised another important question that relates a seeker to

> the society. This is very subtle … how and why you practice the so

> called spirituality should be determined by you alone. I do not see

> anything wrong in your wife's comment as she seems to be outside

the

> realm of your intentions and quests. Obviously your quest is not

> revealed to her in its sincerity. If it had, she would also happily

> join you in the journey.

>

> Again, there is no definite path for spirituality. Thinking that

one

> particular method takes you there – be it the work or the worship –

> remains our ignorance. The very notion that we should be taken

> somewhere is our ignorance. In my experience, appreciation of one's

> own nature and circumstantial position (Swadharma) is an absolute

> must for a spiritual seeker. Don't get trapped by an attraction to

> something alien … even it happens to be " the sacred " spirituality.

> If any of your practice creates dilemma, anxiety or doubts in your

> mind … question them then and there to resolve the same then and

> there. The reaction from your wife is the reflection of the

dilemma,

> anxiety and doubts that are rooted in you. I suggest utilize the

> opportunity of your wife's criticism to correct yourself. In my

> opinion, that is the best approach in spirituality as well as in

the

> day-to-day affairs.

>

> This is my personal opinion. Hope, it helps.

>

> Respects

>

> Naga Narayana.

>

> ---------------------------

> There is no soul. Stop trying to make fools of people

> arun kumar

>

> ---------------------------

>

> , " sadhak_insight "

> <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> >

> > Dear fellow travellers

> > All of us are YOGA BHRASHT and thus are born and dying repeatedly

> > only to have correct knowledge before eachone of us pass the test

> > and getting ourselves relieved of the burden of memory of our

past

> > and future obligations. The main job of life is therefore to

learn

> > what we must learn to get salvation; or in other words, remain

> > defect free so that none is looking for us, neither do we look

for

> > others. And nothing is to learn from outside but thinking or

> > upasate. Upanishad says: Atma nay moksharthe, jagat hitay cha

> i.e.,

> > help yourself for nirvan and is help everyone else. All people

are

> > similaly cursed to live inside creation of their own mind.

> >

> > If you believe in Sri Krisna, all is His responsibility. The

world

> > is a CHITT (picture, drawing) of Sri Krishna. With the breath

> > (SANKALP) of Sri Krishna (MAD GATAH PRAANA), look at the world

> > around, and try understanding it (BODHYANTAH) with Him together

> > (PARASPARAM).

> >

> > This world is very uncertain and incomprehensible and like a room

> > full of darkness. You must therefore keep talking to Sri Krishna

> > constantly (KATHAYATACH MAAM NITYAH) so that the fear of

existence

> > of darkness does not affect you, and be sure and satisfied in the

> > world (TUSHYANTI CHA) and in this condition keep doing (RAMANTI

> CHA)

> > whatever is necessary, and wanted.

> >

> > MAT CHITTAH MAD GATAH PRAANA

> > BODHYANTAH PARASPARAM

> > KATHAYATAH SCH MAAM NITYAH

> > TUSHAYATI CHA RAMANTI CHA.

> > - Bhagwat Gita

> >

> > Best regards

> > K G

> > (Krishna Gopal)

> > --------------------------------

--

> >

> > Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

> > If one were to say ya, body and atma are separate, or no, body

and

> > atma are one and not separate, it would probably mean little. To

> be

> > able to answer correctly, one need to know experientially what

> Atma-

> > Soul is first, right? We think we know our body but that also

> > is doubtful. Our knowledge of body is generally limited to

> pleasures

> > we derive from it. This doesn't leave us any time to investigate

> the

> > most important dimension of our living, which is to know the

truth

> of

> > myself.

> >

> > Suppose I find the truth of " I " , " me " and " mine " and therefore by

> > implication the truth of what is " not-me " and the apparant world.

> I

> > will be living my daily life according to this truth and

> definitely

> > not based on what I now believe, right? This Truth happens to be

> > that " I " is Awareness in which body, thoughts, feelings, and all

> > objects I call " mine " or " not mine " arise to disappear.

> > Unfortunately I consider myself to be body with mind, and an

> > independent entity.

> > SO first we have to see this I is different from everything I

is

> > aware of. We are the Awareness or Consciousness in which our

world

> > appears as perceptions and conceptions having names and forms

> (nama,

> > rupah) and therefore different from it. Perceived and conceived

> > objects including our own body come and go with every thought or

> > feelings whereas Awareness is always there even while dream, and

> > sleep states of mind-body organism. See and feel the truth

> > of this, as it is our experience right now as these words are

> being

> > read.

> > We have to be Awareness because that is the only permanent aspect

> of

> > our living. As such we are separate from body. Now having

> understood

> > this first, the discrimination takes place in us, " I " am

> Awareness,

> > not what I am aware of, the objects including body I call mine.

> > Then all objects I thus perceive are made up of thoughts only as

> we

> > experience them! World cannot be experienced independent of Being

> > Aware! Tables, chairs, mountains, oceans, forests all are

perceived

> > and conceived thoughts in our Awareness and therefore are one

with

> > It again as I experience them. So everything we experience is One

> > Awareness appearing as apparantly different objects, but in

> reality

> > of our experience is One and not separate from Awareness.

> > This is when Sages say everything is Ishwara, or Vasudevam servam

> > iti.

> > Awareness experiences Awareness, God sees God everywhere. Thus

> Body

> > is not separate from Atma same as Awareness or Supreme

> Consciousness-

> > God as Swamiji calls it.

> > This realization takes care of problems of dealing with the world

> > out there let alone one's own spouse!

> > Namaskar.....Pratap

> > (Pratap Bhatt)

> >

> > --------------------------------

--

> --

> > namasthe Bishnoi ji,

> >

> > This is my humble opinion. please do not think that you are

> getting

> > more deeply trapped at all. after all, we are are in this life.

> > Also, as ur wife mentioned, you need not had to do satsang when u

> > are having work at home..once all ur duties at home everything is

> > done, and then if have time, you can do satsung or do anything

> which

> > you wanted. please you can SURRENDER all your duties in ur home,

> all

> > ur worldly duties which u feel u are supposed to do, SURRENDER

all

> > of them as a worship to that God. ..and that is the HIGHEST form

> of

> > worship.

> >

> > In 6.1 (Dhyana yoga chapter of Bhagavadgita), God says:He who

> > performs his duty without depending on the fruits of actions - he

> is

> > a sannyasin, not the one who does not light the sacred fire, and

> > performs no rites.

> >

> > ( Here sannyasin means => not the person who is not married or

do

> > not have anything to do or simply sits and meditates..the meaning

> > goes like this: brahmacharya : state of moving/exploring all of

> > existance. sanyasa: san- wholy, nyasa- established/rooted in '

> that

> > divinity or brahman'.

> >

> > sacred fire/rites means => one's own duties )

> >

> > In the vese 9.27, God says, whatever you eat, whatever you do,

> > whatever you offer as oblation to sacred fire, whatever you give

> out

> > as charity, OFFER it all onto Me (Supreme Consciousness).

> >

> > So, u need not had to think that u need to go to temple, or do

> > satsung to understand God. Just doing whatever duties that you

> have

> > either by choice or by circumstances, we can offer everything to

> > that God remembering as that SOURCE of all what we have, and

> behind

> > all what we are able to do, and also the reason of all our

> > duties/families/responsibilities and let go to that SUPREME with

> all

> > the respect and devotion.

> >

> > have a nice wonderful day.

> > Regards,

> > Bharathi

> >

> > --------------------------------

--

> >

> > , " sadhak_insight "

> > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > >

> > > respected shriman ji

> > > jai shri ram ki

> > >

> > > It is fact that body and soul (atma) are both separate, but in

> > > actuality is it really so ? Is it only external knowledge or

is

> > > this knowledge from within? Is this internally realized by

> anyone

> > > in this world? If there is, then tell me - How does one become

> > > freed from this illusion of maya ? This does not seem

something

> > > that is within my reach.

> > >

> > > Daily I seem to be getting more deeply trapped. Demands of

this

> > > body, demands of the family, and who knows who all we keep

> > running

> > > after day in and day out. If we do not run around for worldly

> > work,

> > > then daily there are new fights, wife says why are you running

> > away

> > > to satsangs ? Our God is in our home, where is your God ? If

I

> > do

> > > name recitation (nama japa), she says - becoming like an

> ascetic,

> > > simply sitting, not wanting to do any work at home, this is a

> good

> > > way to escape the chores. Now, you only tell me what to do ?

> Is

> > > this how the world is ?

> > >

> > > I beg you to please show me the way.

> > >

> > > Let there be God's immmense grace and blessing,

> > > jai ram ji ki

> > > B.R.Bishnoi

> > >

> > > IN HINDI .........

> > >

> > > dono alag alag hain parntu esa atuality main nahi hota hain kya

> > > problem hain,bahari gyan hain under ka esa gyan nahi hain.under

> ke

> > > gyan ko koi hain kya es dunia main,adi hain to bata do

> muge .maya

> > se

> > > sutkara kase ho sakat hain, mere bas ki to bat hain nahi har

pal

> > aur

> > > gahare dal-dal main fasta jaraha haun.sarir ki demand, parivar

> ki

> > > demand aur na jane kis -kis ke liye har pal bhagte rahate hain.

> > nahi

> > > bhage to nit naya jagada,patni kahati hain kyon bhagte ho

> satsang

> > ke

> > > liye ,hamara bhagwan to hamare ghar main hain, tumara bhagwan

> > kahan

> > > hain!nam jap karo to kahati hain ki baba ji banjao, bus beth

gye

> > > hain,ghar ka koi kam nahi karna hain ,acha tarika hain pichha

> > surane

> > > ka, bhakti ke nam se dhong karte raho, maje se ankh bandh

karke

> > so

> > > jao. ab mujhe ap batayega kya karana , esi duniya ka.

> > > ap marg darshan karne ki ati kripa kare.

> > > prabhu ki bahoot-bahoot kripa ho

> > > jai ram ji ki

> > > B.R.Bishnoi

> > > ------------------------------

--

> -

> > >

> > > FROM THE MODERATOR

> > >

> > > The following are the guidelines for Gita-Talk discussions.

> > >

> > > GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES:

> > > 1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify their

doubts

> > > related to Gitaji shalokas. Therefore, responses which further

> > > clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be posted.

> > > 2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures

to

> > > substantiate your response.

> > > 3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to

the

> > > extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas

> > > 4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible,

respecting

> > > sadhaka's time.

> > > 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only.

> > > 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other

> > > organizations.

> > > 7. Kindly do not include your personal information such as

phone

> > > number, address etc.

> > > 8. Please do not address the response to a particular

individual

> > > since the message is going to the entire group.

> > > 9. Due to the large readership, all responses may not be

posted.

> > > 10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if

> > content

> > > is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the group.

> > > 11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices,

youth,

> > > westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use to

> > Sanskrit

> > > words only, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit

> > bracketed

> > > wherever possible.

> > >

> > > MODERATOR

> > > Ram Ram

> > >

> >

>

April 3, 2008

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

I am addressing Arun Kumarji's statement: " There is no

soul. Stop trying to make fools of

people. "

One has to know completely what soul is or is not in

order to make such a statement, right? If this

understanding is partial, it is based on reading or

hearing or belief, opinion, idea etc. one cannot make

such a statement! That is the truth.

Now, suppose one looks at one's own experience in

daily life. He/She may realize that no matter what

these experiences are, painful or pleasurable, they

all happen to " him/her " only. The question is what is

the nature(or reality) of such a one to whom these

experiences happen. If one pursues such a line of

inquiry diligently, makes it a top priority of his/her

life, one will find experiences are perceptions and

conceptions and essentially of the nature of

Consciousness! All experiences are fleeting including

that of one's own body-mind, but Consciousness is

always there like a light!

Consciousness in such context is soul which is never

absent always shinig experiences of one's

wakeful-dreaming-sleeping states!

From this it is clear one has to be Conscious or soul

even to say there is no soul, just as one has to be

alive to say he/she is dead!

Namaskar... Pratap Bhatt

, " sadhak_insight "

<sadhak_insight wrote:

>

> Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

> I am posting this just to appreciate the response of Naga Narayana.

> I felt the Truth of what I read. I sure hope all of us benefit from

> it, specially those of us on the path(so to speak) of Self-

> knowledge. Along with his and Swamiji's message of April 1st

> on " There is only God-Supreme Consciousness " touched me deeply in

my

> core of Being.

> I am grateful to receive such messages from some other members of

> the group from time to time!

> Pratap in Divinity

> (Pratap Bhatt)

> -

-

> What a beautiful answer for this dilemma by Naga Narayanji

>

> And Arun Kumarji, in future please elaborate what you mean,

instead

> of responding with a single line.

> With best wishes,

>

> Abhinav Mehta

>

> ESSENCE OF BHAGVAD GITA

>

> Whatever has happened, has happened for good.

> Whatever is happening, is happening for good.

> Whatever is going to happen, it will be for good.

> What have you lost for which you cry?

> What did you bring with you, which you have lost?

> What did you produce, which has been destroyed?

> You did not bring anything when you were born.

> Whatever you have, you have received from Him.

> Whatever you will give, you will give to Him.

> You came empty handed and you will go the same way.

> Whatever is yours today was somebody else's yesterday and will be

> somebody else's tomorrow.

> SO WHY WORRY UNNECESSARILY?

> Change is the law of the universe

> -

-

> Dear Divine soul

>

> humble parnaama!

> the king janak etc. Seers...

> who reached the Meditative State Of Their Reality...

> when one is awakened to one's True Nature...

> WHEN ONE IS IN UNITY WITH All-

> when one has dissolved one's ego in the ocean of BRAHMAN..

> when one is one with this world.

> When one is identified with all creatures.

> When one has crossed all names and boundries and

> when one is mere witness. Consciousness.

> One has attained the Self.

>

> i do not accept the version given by my fellow pilgrim

> we are not yoga brasht..

> whatever happens is ALL His Will

>

> the world is a Leela,and not a curse.

>

> my humble parnaamns

> eternal child

> kuldip suri

>

> -

-

>

> , " sadhak_insight "

> <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> >

> > Dear Friend:

> >

> > This is a burning quest of all the seekers from the yore.

Welcome

> to

> > the couldrum on the fire.

> >

> > In fact, almost all the Upanishads deal with this. As I

understand,

> > Kathopanishad provides the best outlook toward this. The death

> > utters, " It has been debated by even gods and has not been

> > understood well " . It utters, " This can be never examined and

> > understood by any amount of debate, analyses and discussions " . It

> > concludes, " It is attainable by just being that. In fact, only

one

> > who acknowledges a possibility alone can ever attain anything " .

> >

> > Kenopanishad concludes that " You are wrong if you say IT exists!

> You

> > are utterly wrong if you say IT does not exist!! It is the

> > existence, non-existence as well as anything else you could

think

> of

> > or you cannot even think of " .

> >

> > Eeshopanishad teaches us, " One who thinks IT does not exist is a

> > fool! One who thinks IT exists is a bigger fool!! " .

> >

> > We can keep arguing about this for lives. No argument can be

> > conclusive. The very quest for determining the Absolute is our

> > foolishness. Simple logic reveals to us that anything that can be

> > determined by our senses and their fountain head, the mind, can

> > never be Absolute since the very perceptorial mechanism remains

> > relative and limited in its essence! One can argue that there

lies

> a

> > driver within this body driving it as far as it can run since all

> > our perception of the body aligns with this notion! One can also

> > argue that the body creates an illusion of the driver since

there

> is

> > no evidence for such a driver outside the realms of the body!! I

> > consider both the positions as mere positions that our

perceptions

> > could generate. The perception being incomplete, lopsided and

> > inconsistent in its very existence – incomplete since only

> > superficial nature of objects are revealed in it, lopsided since

> the

> > object is never consulted and all the conclusions are drawn by

the

> > subject unilaterally, inconsistent because seemingly unconnected

> > senses seem to generate impressions to relate objects – any

> position

> > that is taken by the thought process remains an illusions within

> > itself in its best. Hanging on to our perceptions to determine

The

> > Truth is the ignorance a seeker could wield very often.

> >

> > One cannot " have " The Truth which is Absolute since the very

notion

> > of " having " remains relative. One can definitely " be " The Truth

> > since the reality is in " being " as we are, as the world is.

Taking

> > positions is required for " having " . Having no position is the

very

> > basis for " being " . Anything that can be possessed is relative and

> > debatable. Anything that is can never be questioned as no

question

> > raises regarding its being as such. The body, the mind, the soul,

> > the Unmanifested, The Life … can we ever separate anyone from the

> > rest an examine?! If we could, then only we can dwell in the

debate

> > of whether the body and soul are the same or not. It is the unity

> > across the existence that assures the sustenance of everything we

> > perceive as well as everything that we don't. The distinction,

> > demarcation and discreteness in the universal presence are

> > exclusively in our perception. Just because the perception is

> > fragmented, one cannot conclude that the universe is fragmented.

> One

> > who can break through such infinitely fractured perceptorial

> reality

> > can " be " THAT REALITY. One depends on to the fragmented

perception

> > for " having " the reality will just wander in the wilderness of

> one's

> > own mind just like a blind man following another! Therefore, my

> > suggestion to you is to drop such debate in the very roots my

dear

> > friend!

> >

> > You have raised another important question that relates a seeker

to

> > the society. This is very subtle … how and why you practice the

so

> > called spirituality should be determined by you alone. I do not

see

> > anything wrong in your wife's comment as she seems to be outside

> the

> > realm of your intentions and quests. Obviously your quest is not

> > revealed to her in its sincerity. If it had, she would also

happily

> > join you in the journey.

> >

> > Again, there is no definite path for spirituality. Thinking that

> one

> > particular method takes you there – be it the work or the

worship –

> > remains our ignorance. The very notion that we should be taken

> > somewhere is our ignorance. In my experience, appreciation of

one's

> > own nature and circumstantial position (Swadharma) is an absolute

> > must for a spiritual seeker. Don't get trapped by an attraction

to

> > something alien … even it happens to be " the sacred "

spirituality.

> > If any of your practice creates dilemma, anxiety or doubts in

your

> > mind … question them then and there to resolve the same then and

> > there. The reaction from your wife is the reflection of the

> dilemma,

> > anxiety and doubts that are rooted in you. I suggest utilize the

> > opportunity of your wife's criticism to correct yourself. In my

> > opinion, that is the best approach in spirituality as well as in

> the

> > day-to-day affairs.

> >

> > This is my personal opinion. Hope, it helps.

> >

> > Respects

> >

> > Naga Narayana.

> >

> > ---------------------------

> > There is no soul. Stop trying to make fools of people

> > arun kumar

> >

> > ---------------------------

> >

> > , " sadhak_insight "

> > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Dear fellow travellers

> > > All of us are YOGA BHRASHT and thus are born and dying

repeatedly

> > > only to have correct knowledge before eachone of us pass the

test

> > > and getting ourselves relieved of the burden of memory of our

> past

> > > and future obligations. The main job of life is therefore to

> learn

> > > what we must learn to get salvation; or in other words, remain

> > > defect free so that none is looking for us, neither do we look

> for

> > > others. And nothing is to learn from outside but thinking or

> > > upasate. Upanishad says: Atma nay moksharthe, jagat hitay cha

> > i.e.,

> > > help yourself for nirvan and is help everyone else. All people

> are

> > > similaly cursed to live inside creation of their own mind.

> > >

> > > If you believe in Sri Krisna, all is His responsibility. The

> world

> > > is a CHITT (picture, drawing) of Sri Krishna. With the breath

> > > (SANKALP) of Sri Krishna (MAD GATAH PRAANA), look at the world

> > > around, and try understanding it (BODHYANTAH) with Him together

> > > (PARASPARAM).

> > >

> > > This world is very uncertain and incomprehensible and like a

room

> > > full of darkness. You must therefore keep talking to Sri

Krishna

> > > constantly (KATHAYATACH MAAM NITYAH) so that the fear of

> existence

> > > of darkness does not affect you, and be sure and satisfied in

the

> > > world (TUSHYANTI CHA) and in this condition keep doing (RAMANTI

> > CHA)

> > > whatever is necessary, and wanted.

> > >

> > > MAT CHITTAH MAD GATAH PRAANA

> > > BODHYANTAH PARASPARAM

> > > KATHAYATAH SCH MAAM NITYAH

> > > TUSHAYATI CHA RAMANTI CHA.

> > > - Bhagwat Gita

> > >

> > > Best regards

> > > K G

> > > (Krishna Gopal)

> > > ------------------------------

--

> --

> > >

> > > Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

> > > If one were to say ya, body and atma are separate, or no, body

> and

> > > atma are one and not separate, it would probably mean little.

To

> > be

> > > able to answer correctly, one need to know experientially what

> > Atma-

> > > Soul is first, right? We think we know our body but that also

> > > is doubtful. Our knowledge of body is generally limited to

> > pleasures

> > > we derive from it. This doesn't leave us any time to

investigate

> > the

> > > most important dimension of our living, which is to know the

> truth

> > of

> > > myself.

> > >

> > > Suppose I find the truth of " I " , " me " and " mine " and therefore

by

> > > implication the truth of what is " not-me " and the apparant

world.

> > I

> > > will be living my daily life according to this truth and

> > definitely

> > > not based on what I now believe, right? This Truth happens to

be

> > > that " I " is Awareness in which body, thoughts, feelings, and

all

> > > objects I call " mine " or " not mine " arise to disappear.

> > > Unfortunately I consider myself to be body with mind, and an

> > > independent entity.

> > > SO first we have to see this I is different from everything

I

> is

> > > aware of. We are the Awareness or Consciousness in which our

> world

> > > appears as perceptions and conceptions having names and forms

> > (nama,

> > > rupah) and therefore different from it. Perceived and conceived

> > > objects including our own body come and go with every thought

or

> > > feelings whereas Awareness is always there even while dream,

and

> > > sleep states of mind-body organism. See and feel the truth

> > > of this, as it is our experience right now as these words are

> > being

> > > read.

> > > We have to be Awareness because that is the only permanent

aspect

> > of

> > > our living. As such we are separate from body. Now having

> > understood

> > > this first, the discrimination takes place in us, " I " am

> > Awareness,

> > > not what I am aware of, the objects including body I call mine.

> > > Then all objects I thus perceive are made up of thoughts only

as

> > we

> > > experience them! World cannot be experienced independent of

Being

> > > Aware! Tables, chairs, mountains, oceans, forests all are

> perceived

> > > and conceived thoughts in our Awareness and therefore are one

> with

> > > It again as I experience them. So everything we experience is

One

> > > Awareness appearing as apparantly different objects, but in

> > reality

> > > of our experience is One and not separate from Awareness.

> > > This is when Sages say everything is Ishwara, or Vasudevam

servam

> > > iti.

> > > Awareness experiences Awareness, God sees God everywhere. Thus

> > Body

> > > is not separate from Atma same as Awareness or Supreme

> > Consciousness-

> > > God as Swamiji calls it.

> > > This realization takes care of problems of dealing with the

world

> > > out there let alone one's own spouse!

> > > Namaskar.....Pratap

> > > (Pratap Bhatt)

> > >

> > > ------------------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > namasthe Bishnoi ji,

> > >

> > > This is my humble opinion. please do not think that you are

> > getting

> > > more deeply trapped at all. after all, we are are in this life.

> > > Also, as ur wife mentioned, you need not had to do satsang

when u

> > > are having work at home..once all ur duties at home everything

is

> > > done, and then if have time, you can do satsung or do anything

> > which

> > > you wanted. please you can SURRENDER all your duties in ur

home,

> > all

> > > ur worldly duties which u feel u are supposed to do, SURRENDER

> all

> > > of them as a worship to that God. ..and that is the HIGHEST

form

> > of

> > > worship.

> > >

> > > In 6.1 (Dhyana yoga chapter of Bhagavadgita), God says:He who

> > > performs his duty without depending on the fruits of actions -

he

> > is

> > > a sannyasin, not the one who does not light the sacred fire,

and

> > > performs no rites.

> > >

> > > ( Here sannyasin means => not the person who is not married

or

> do

> > > not have anything to do or simply sits and meditates..the

meaning

> > > goes like this: brahmacharya : state of moving/exploring all of

> > > existance. sanyasa: san- wholy, nyasa- established/rooted in '

> > that

> > > divinity or brahman'.

> > >

> > > sacred fire/rites means => one's own duties )

> > >

> > > In the vese 9.27, God says, whatever you eat, whatever you do,

> > > whatever you offer as oblation to sacred fire, whatever you

give

> > out

> > > as charity, OFFER it all onto Me (Supreme Consciousness).

> > >

> > > So, u need not had to think that u need to go to temple, or do

> > > satsung to understand God. Just doing whatever duties that you

> > have

> > > either by choice or by circumstances, we can offer everything

to

> > > that God remembering as that SOURCE of all what we have, and

> > behind

> > > all what we are able to do, and also the reason of all our

> > > duties/families/responsibilities and let go to that SUPREME

with

> > all

> > > the respect and devotion.

> > >

> > > have a nice wonderful day.

> > > Regards,

> > > Bharathi

> > >

> > > ------------------------------

--

> --

> > >

> > > , " sadhak_insight "

> > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > respected shriman ji

> > > > jai shri ram ki

> > > >

> > > > It is fact that body and soul (atma) are both separate, but

in

> > > > actuality is it really so ? Is it only external knowledge

or

> is

> > > > this knowledge from within? Is this internally realized by

> > anyone

> > > > in this world? If there is, then tell me - How does one

become

> > > > freed from this illusion of maya ? This does not seem

> something

> > > > that is within my reach.

> > > >

> > > > Daily I seem to be getting more deeply trapped. Demands of

> this

> > > > body, demands of the family, and who knows who all we keep

> > > running

> > > > after day in and day out. If we do not run around for

worldly

> > > work,

> > > > then daily there are new fights, wife says why are you

running

> > > away

> > > > to satsangs ? Our God is in our home, where is your God ?

If

> I

> > > do

> > > > name recitation (nama japa), she says - becoming like an

> > ascetic,

> > > > simply sitting, not wanting to do any work at home, this is a

> > good

> > > > way to escape the chores. Now, you only tell me what to do ?

> > Is

> > > > this how the world is ?

> > > >

> > > > I beg you to please show me the way.

> > > >

> > > > Let there be God's immmense grace and blessing,

> > > > jai ram ji ki

> > > > B.R.Bishnoi

> > > >

> > > > IN HINDI .........

> > > >

> > > > dono alag alag hain parntu esa atuality main nahi hota hain

kya

> > > > problem hain,bahari gyan hain under ka esa gyan nahi

hain.under

> > ke

> > > > gyan ko koi hain kya es dunia main,adi hain to bata do

> > muge .maya

> > > se

> > > > sutkara kase ho sakat hain, mere bas ki to bat hain nahi har

> pal

> > > aur

> > > > gahare dal-dal main fasta jaraha haun.sarir ki demand,

parivar

> > ki

> > > > demand aur na jane kis -kis ke liye har pal bhagte rahate

hain.

> > > nahi

> > > > bhage to nit naya jagada,patni kahati hain kyon bhagte ho

> > satsang

> > > ke

> > > > liye ,hamara bhagwan to hamare ghar main hain, tumara bhagwan

> > > kahan

> > > > hain!nam jap karo to kahati hain ki baba ji banjao, bus beth

> gye

> > > > hain,ghar ka koi kam nahi karna hain ,acha tarika hain pichha

> > > surane

> > > > ka, bhakti ke nam se dhong karte raho, maje se ankh bandh

> karke

> > > so

> > > > jao. ab mujhe ap batayega kya karana , esi duniya ka.

> > > > ap marg darshan karne ki ati kripa kare.

> > > > prabhu ki bahoot-bahoot kripa ho

> > > > jai ram ji ki

> > > > B.R.Bishnoi

> > > > ----------------------------

--

> --

> > -

> > > >

> > > > FROM THE MODERATOR

> > > >

> > > > The following are the guidelines for Gita-Talk discussions.

> > > >

> > > > GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES:

> > > > 1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify their

> doubts

> > > > related to Gitaji shalokas. Therefore, responses which

further

> > > > clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be posted.

> > > > 2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other

scriptures

> to

> > > > substantiate your response.

> > > > 3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to

> the

> > > > extent that they further help in understanding the Gita

shlokas

> > > > 4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible,

> respecting

> > > > sadhaka's time.

> > > > 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only.

> > > > 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other

> > > > organizations.

> > > > 7. Kindly do not include your personal information such as

> phone

> > > > number, address etc.

> > > > 8. Please do not address the response to a particular

> individual

> > > > since the message is going to the entire group.

> > > > 9. Due to the large readership, all responses may not be

> posted.

> > > > 10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if

> > > content

> > > > is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the group.

> > > > 11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices,

> youth,

> > > > westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use to

> > > Sanskrit

> > > > words only, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit

> > > bracketed

> > > > wherever possible.

> > > >

> > > > MODERATOR

> > > > Ram Ram

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

April 18, 2008

Shree Hari Priya Sadhaka, prasana ke liye dhanyavad! Rev. Swamiji Maharaj pointed out this fact time and again in his discourses that body and soul are indeed different entities. Incorrect assumption on the part of the Sadhaka that he is the body is the main reason for his bondage to the world and is the cause for him to continue in the birth and death cycle. For a minute if we hypothetically assume that we are the body then who is getting moksha, who is going to heaven since the body dies, is everything finished right here. It is impossible to prove that the body and soul are one and the same but it is much easier to prove that they are separate. The separation of body and soul can be visualized in a few different ways, e.g., ·

We know from our own daily experience, when we are in deep sleep, we do not have the awareness of not only the body but also prana, senses, mind and intellect. But the soul (consciousness) is always present because after we wake up, we say I had a very sound sleep, who was there to make a note of our being in deep sleep. It is that consciousness (awareness) which never goes to sleep. It is that awareness which imparts the light to make us of aware of awareness itself. · When we are living in a house, the house and us are separate entities from each other but we do need the house to live in. · In

the sky (or space), many times there are clouds, lightening, rain, smoke, mighty wind storm etc. but the sky is not affected by any of these. The soul is likewise not affected by constant changes happening in the body. · The body is subject to modification and decay, prana energy is slowly depleting with aging of the body, with time, prana stops and the body dies. The body needs prana energy to continue to live but the soul does need any prana to live on. · The body, prana, senses, mind and intellect are inert without the consciousness principle. As we know, the body cannot exist without the soul but the soul does exist without the

body. · Among other Hindu scriptures, Upnisads, Brahm Sutras and Gitaji are well recognized as the authority for all spiritual matters by many world scholars, sages and seers who have commented, enjoyed and wondered about the spiritual truths enumerated there in. Many verses in Gitaji clearly point out the distinction between the body and soul

principle. Some of verses are as follows: · 2/11-2/30 - explain the difference between the Sharira (body) and Shariri (Atma) · 7/4 - Apara prakriti - indicates the similarity between body and prikariti ·

7/5 - Para prikriti - which explains about soul pervading all over the body yet not connected with the body, Para is different from Apara prakriti · 13/1 and 13/2 - explains

Kshetra and Kshetrajana, body is the Kshetra, body and mind are the where the seeds of good and bad karmas are sowed, while Kshetrajana is the one who knows the body as Kshetra. Lord Krishna says that He is the Kshetrajana in all. · 13/6 - Kshetra and Kshetrajan come together for the beings to be born and to be

existing. · 15/7 – The jiva (soul) in the body is an eternal portion of Myself. Seated in the Prakriti, it attracts the senses (five) – the mind being the sixth. Humble

regards, Madan Kaurasadhak_insight <sadhak_insight wrote: respected shriman jijai shri ram kiIt is fact that body and soul (atma) are both separate, but in actuality is it really so ? Is it only external knowledge or is this knowledge from within? Is

this internally realized by anyone in this world? If there is, then tell me - How does one become freed from this illusion of maya ? This does not seem something that is within my reach. Daily I seem to be getting more deeply trapped. Demands of this body, demands of the family, and who knows who all we keep running after day in and day out. If we do not run around for worldly work, then daily there are new fights, wife says why are you running away to satsangs ? Our God is in our home, where is your God ? If I do name recitation (nama japa), she says - becoming like an ascetic, simply sitting, not wanting to do any work at home, this is a good way to escape the chores. Now, you only tell me what to do ? Is this how the world is ? I beg you to please show me the way. Let there be God's immmense grace and blessing,jai ram ji kiB.R.BishnoiIN HINDI .........dono alag alag hain parntu

esa atuality main nahi hota hain kya problem hain,bahari gyan hain under ka esa gyan nahi hain.under ke gyan ko koi hain kya es dunia main,adi hain to bata do muge .maya se sutkara kase ho sakat hain, mere bas ki to bat hain nahi har pal aur gahare dal-dal main fasta jaraha haun.sarir ki demand, parivar ki demand aur na jane kis -kis ke liye har pal bhagte rahate hain. nahi bhage to nit naya jagada,patni kahati hain kyon bhagte ho satsang ke liye ,hamara bhagwan to hamare ghar main hain, tumara bhagwan kahan hain!nam jap karo to kahati hain ki baba ji banjao, bus beth gye hain,ghar ka koi kam nahi karna hain ,acha tarika hain pichha surane ka, bhakti ke nam se dhong karte raho, maje se ankh bandh karke so jao. ab mujhe ap batayega kya karana , esi duniya ka.ap marg darshan karne ki ati kripa kare.prabhu ki bahoot-bahoot kripa hojai ram ji

kiB.R.Bishnoi-------------------------FROM THE MODERATORThe following are the guidelines for Gita-Talk discussions.GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES:1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify their doubts related to Gitaji shalokas. Therefore, responses which further clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be posted.2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to substantiate your response.3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas 4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting sadhaka's time.5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only.6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other organizations.7. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone number,

address etc.8. Please do not address the response to a particular individual since the message is going to the entire group.9. Due to the large readership, all responses may not be posted.10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if content is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the group.11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use to Sanskrit words only, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit bracketed wherever possible. MODERATORRam Ram

Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Mobile. Try it now.

April 18, 2008

Shree Hari Priya Sadhaka, prasana ke liye dhanyavad! Param Sharadhya Swamiji Maharaj pointed out this key fact time and again in his discourses that body and soul are indeed different entities. Incorrect assumption on the part of the Sadhaka that he is the body is the main reason for his bondage to the world, resulting in pain and suffering. It is also the cause for him to continue in the birth and death cycle. For a minute if we hypothetically assume that we are the body then who is getting Moksha, who is going to heaven since the body dies, is everything finished right here. It is impossible to prove that the body and soul are one and the same but it is much easier to prove that they are separate. The separation of body and soul can be visualized in a few different ways, e.g., · We know from our own daily experience, when we are in deep sleep, we do not have the awareness of not only the body but also prana, senses, mind and intellect. But the soul (consciousness) is always present because after we wake up, we say I had a very sound sleep, who was there to make a note of our being in deep sleep. It is that consciousness (awareness) which never goes to sleep. It is that awareness which imparts the light to make us of aware of awareness itself. · When we are living in a house, the house and us are separate entities from each other but we do need the house to live in. · In the sky (or space),

many times there are clouds, lightening, rain, smoke, mighty wind storm etc. but the sky is not affected by any of these. The soul is likewise not affected by constant changes happening in the body. · The body is subject to modification (change from child, youth & old age) and decay, prana energy is slowly depleting with aging of the body, with time, prana stops and the

body dies. The body needs prana energy to continue to live but the soul does not need any prana to live on. · The body, prana, senses, mind and intellect are inert without the consciousness principle. As we know, the body cannot exist without the soul but the soul does exist without the body. · Among the Hindu scriptures, Upnishads (knowledge portion of the Vedas), Brahm Sutras and Bhagavad Gita are called the Scriptural Trinity- Prasthanatrayam. They constitute the final authority on scriptural matters. There is no conflict of views among these three. The elucidation of the distinction between the body

& soul principle, the truth about ultimate Reality and other spiritual truths are explained very clearly in these. Many verses in Gitaji also explain the same truths. Some of the verses signifying the body and soul distinction are as follows: · 2/11-2/30 - explain the difference between the Sharira (body) and Shariri (Atma) · 7/4 - Apara Prakriti - indicates the similarity between body and Prakriti · 7/5 - Para prikriti - which explains about soul pervading all over the body yet not connected with the body, Para is different from Apara Prakriti · 13/1 and 13/2 - explains Kshetra and Kshetrajna, body is the Kshetra, body and mind are the where the seeds of good and bad karmas are sowed, while Kshetrajna is the one who knows the body as Kshetra. Lord Krishna says that He is the Kshetrajna in all.

· 13/6 - Kshetra and Kshetrajna come together for the beings to be born and to be existing. · 15/7 – The Jiva (soul) in the body is an eternal portion of Myself. Being seated in the Prakriti, it attracts (considers his own) the senses (five) – the mind being the sixth. · 15/8 – When Jiva takes up a body and when He leaves it, He leaves taking these, (senses and mind) as the wind carries the scents from their sources. Humble regards, Madan Kaurasadhak_insight <sadhak_insight wrote: respected shriman jijai shri ram kiIt is fact that body and soul (atma) are both separate, but in actuality is it really so ? Is it only external knowledge or is this knowledge from within? Is

this internally realized by anyone in this world? If there is, then tell me - How does one become freed from this illusion of maya ? This does not seem something that is within my reach. Daily I seem to be getting more deeply trapped. Demands of this body, demands of the family, and who knows who all we keep running after day in and day out. If we do not run around for worldly work, then daily there are new fights, wife says why are you running away to satsangs ? Our God is in our home, where is your God ? If I do name recitation (nama japa), she says - becoming like an ascetic, simply sitting, not wanting to do any work at home, this is a good way to escape the chores. Now, you only tell me what to do ? Is this how the world is ? I beg you to please show me the way. Let there be God's immmense grace and blessing,jai ram ji kiB.R.BishnoiIN HINDI .........dono alag alag hain parntu

esa atuality main nahi hota hain kya problem hain,bahari gyan hain under ka esa gyan nahi hain.under ke gyan ko koi hain kya es dunia main,adi hain to bata do muge .maya se sutkara kase ho sakat hain, mere bas ki to bat hain nahi har pal aur gahare dal-dal main fasta jaraha haun.sarir ki demand, parivar ki demand aur na jane kis -kis ke liye har pal bhagte rahate hain. nahi bhage to nit naya jagada,patni kahati hain kyon bhagte ho satsang ke liye ,hamara bhagwan to hamare ghar main hain, tumara bhagwan kahan hain!nam jap karo to kahati hain ki baba ji banjao, bus beth gye hain,ghar ka koi kam nahi karna hain ,acha tarika hain pichha surane ka, bhakti ke nam se dhong karte raho, maje se ankh bandh karke so jao. ab mujhe ap batayega kya karana , esi duniya ka.ap marg darshan karne ki ati kripa kare.prabhu ki bahoot-bahoot kripa hojai ram ji

kiB.R.Bishnoi-------------------------FROM THE MODERATORThe following are the guidelines for Gita-Talk discussions.GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES:1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify their doubts related to Gitaji shalokas. Therefore, responses which further clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be posted.2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to substantiate your response.3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas 4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting sadhaka's time.5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only.6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other organizations.7. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone number,

address etc.8. Please do not address the response to a particular individual since the message is going to the entire group.9. Due to the large readership, all responses may not be posted.10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if content is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the group.11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use to Sanskrit words only, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit bracketed wherever possible. MODERATORRam Ram

Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Mobile. Try it now.

April 19, 2008

Haro Om,

Saint Gnaneswar, his sister Muktha bai woke the dead to life.

Adi Sankarara left behind his body for few days and was in a king`s

body (king died just then).

Sant Sakubai died in Panderpur temple inside sanctum sanctorium. She

was (cremated) burnt to ashed. Bagavan Shiva brought her back to form

and life. In chennai there is a temple Kapaleeswarar Temple 800

hundred years old. Saint Thirunanasambanther (shivite) brought a lady

18 years old back to form and life. Her name is Poogothai. All these

happened in presence of public.

So soul is seperate from body.

Medically- When someone dies, all organs are intact for sometime. The

body lost the energy call soul. Slowly the body starts seperating

heat goes Agni, Air goes to Vayu, water goes to Varuna etc and then

body starts decaying.

Vedically- Body is made of pancha (5) pranas, pancha kosas (5 Sheets

of Aura), chakras that generate power, Pancha boothas (air-fire-water-

space-earth) where earth is chemistry. Then sukshumam the soul. This

soul Bagavan says that it cannot be destroyed by anything. This soul

enters body after body to wash away it`s vasanas (desires). When all

vasanas are emptied the body, mind and intellect becomes so pure that

Aura around the body expands to a radius of 12 Kms. Such body when

moves in and around nothing can harm. In fact for that 12 Kms radius

all living beings become satvik. These auras can now be filmed by

kerlion camara. When such body, soul remains in constant thought of

GOD, it gains Astama Sidis (8 Occult powers). With one of these

siddhis nowadays swamyjis play around with crowd. But if one does not

use these Sidhis they become Paramahamsa (a divine person) and attain

Samadhi or Moksha. With these type of persons God always remain with

them.

Dear Sadhaks- So the body is separate from body. Anyone can practice

bakthi, meditation. It is our chioce to live around on earth in

enjoyment of pleasures or to go in search of self knowledge.

In Ramayan, when sri Rama completes war, Dasaratha appears. Dasaratha

body is dead. How come Dasaratha appeared. The soul can assume any

shape or shapes in one place and same time in differant places.

An atom is seperatable. Nutron, proton and electron. To seperate this

you should be qualified and experienced. So in case of body and soul.

If you get Athma Gynan you are qualified to see body separate from

body.

Many would have heard of DNA in human body. Based on ones Karma the

DNA is implanted in a body from grandfather to grandson. The grandson

has to be born. Yet the DNA is decided and which soul has to come

which family generation. DNA are again divided into 6 verities. That

is why a child gets disease based on it`s stars. These DNA are linked

with 27 birth stars. So birth and death depends upon ones karmas and

vasanas.

Jaya and Vijaya at entrance of Vaikunt was cursed to take 3 births on

earth and then be back to Vaikunth. So for 3 birth everything was

decided on to which DNA and star. When Prahaladha was by side of

Visnu after Narashima Avathar, God said to Prahaladha that his seven

generation earlier and that seven generation to come, will attain

moksha. Again Bagavan has decided (sankalpa) whose who.

Logically-- If one losses some part of body still he survives. Is he

one of those limbs/part of body is you. Who is it then? Where you in

existence a day before coming to Womb? if yes. Where were you?

B.Sathyanarayan

----

, Madan kaura <madan_kaura wrote:

>

> Shree Hari

>

> Priya Sadhaka, prasana ke liye dhanyavad!

>

> Param Sharadhya Swamiji Maharaj pointed out this key fact time

and again in his discourses that body and soul are indeed different

entities. Incorrect assumption on the part of the Sadhaka that he is

the body is the main reason for his bondage to the world, resulting

in pain and suffering. It is also the cause for him to continue in

the birth and death cycle.

>

> For a minute if we hypothetically assume that we are the body

then who is getting Moksha, who is going to heaven since the body

dies, is everything finished right here. It is impossible to prove

that the body and soul are one and the same but it is much easier to

prove that they are separate. The separation of body and soul can be

visualized in a few different ways, e.g.,

>

> · We know from our own daily experience, when we are in

deep sleep, we do not have the awareness of not only the body but

also prana, senses, mind and intellect. But the soul (consciousness)

is always present because after we wake up, we say I had a very sound

sleep, who was there to make a note of our being in deep sleep. It is

that consciousness (awareness) which never goes to sleep. It is that

awareness which imparts the light to make us of aware of awareness

itself.

>

> · When we are living in a house, the house and us are

separate entities from each other but we do need the house to live in.

>

> · In the sky (or space), many times there are clouds,

lightening, rain, smoke, mighty wind storm etc. but the sky is not

affected by any of these. The soul is likewise not affected by

constant changes happening in the body.

>

> · The body is subject to modification (change from child,

youth & old age) and decay, prana energy is slowly depleting with

aging of the body, with time, prana stops and the body dies. The body

needs prana energy to continue to live but the soul does not need any

prana to live on.

>

> · The body, prana, senses, mind and intellect are inert

without the consciousness principle. As we know, the body cannot

exist without the soul but the soul does exist without the body.

>

> · Among the Hindu scriptures, Upnishads (knowledge

portion of the Vedas), Brahm Sutras and Bhagavad Gita are called the

Scriptural Trinity- Prasthanatrayam. They constitute the final

authority on scriptural matters. There is no conflict of views among

these three. The elucidation of the distinction between the body &

soul principle, the truth about ultimate Reality and other spiritual

truths are explained very clearly in these. Many verses in Gitaji

also explain the same truths. Some of the verses signifying the body

and soul distinction are as follows:

>

> · 2/11-2/30 - explain the difference between the Sharira

(body) and Shariri (Atma)

> · 7/4 - Apara Prakriti - indicates the similarity

between body and Prikariti

> · 7/5 - Para prikriti - which explains about soul

pervading all over the body yet not connected with the body, Para is

different from Apara Prakriti

> · 13/1 and 13/2 - explains Kshetra and Kshetrajana, body

is the Kshetra, body and mind are the where the seeds of good and bad

karmas are sowed, while Kshetrajana is the one who knows the body as

Kshetra. Lord Krishna says that He is the Kshetrajana in all.

> · 13/6 - Kshetra and Kshetrajan come together for the

beings to be born and to be existing.

> · 15/7 – The Jiva (soul) in the body is an eternal

portion of Myself. Being seated in the Prakriti, it attracts

(considers his own) the senses (five) – the mind being the sixth.

> · 15/8 – When Jiva takes up a body and when He leaves it,

He leaves taking these, (senses and mind) as the wind carries the

scents from their sources.

>

> Humble regards,

> Madan Kaura

>

> sadhak_insight <sadhak_insight wrote:

>

> respected shriman ji

> jai shri ram ki

>

> It is fact that body and soul (atma) are both separate, but in

> actuality is it really so ? Is it only external knowledge or is

> this knowledge from within? Is this internally realized by anyone

> in this world? If there is, then tell me - How does one become

> freed from this illusion of maya ? This does not seem something

> that is within my reach.

>

> Daily I seem to be getting more deeply trapped. Demands of this

> body, demands of the family, and who knows who all we keep running

> after day in and day out. If we do not run around for worldly work,

> then daily there are new fights, wife says why are you running away

> to satsangs ? Our God is in our home, where is your God ? If I do

> name recitation (nama japa), she says - becoming like an ascetic,

> simply sitting, not wanting to do any work at home, this is a good

> way to escape the chores. Now, you only tell me what to do ? Is

> this how the world is ?

>

> I beg you to please show me the way.

>

> Let there be God's immmense grace and blessing,

> jai ram ji ki

> B.R.Bishnoi

>

> IN HINDI .........

>

> dono alag alag hain parntu esa atuality main nahi hota hain kya

> problem hain,bahari gyan hain under ka esa gyan nahi hain.under ke

> gyan ko koi hain kya es dunia main,adi hain to bata do muge .maya

se

> sutkara kase ho sakat hain, mere bas ki to bat hain nahi har pal

aur

> gahare dal-dal main fasta jaraha haun.sarir ki demand, parivar ki

> demand aur na jane kis -kis ke liye har pal bhagte rahate hain.

nahi

> bhage to nit naya jagada,patni kahati hain kyon bhagte ho satsang

ke

> liye ,hamara bhagwan to hamare ghar main hain, tumara bhagwan kahan

> hain!nam jap karo to kahati hain ki baba ji banjao, bus beth gye

> hain,ghar ka koi kam nahi karna hain ,acha tarika hain pichha

surane

> ka, bhakti ke nam se dhong karte raho, maje se ankh bandh karke so

> jao. ab mujhe ap batayega kya karana , esi duniya ka.

> ap marg darshan karne ki ati kripa kare.

> prabhu ki bahoot-bahoot kripa ho

> jai ram ji ki

> B.R.Bishnoi

> -------------------------

>

> FROM THE MODERATOR

>

> The following are the guidelines for Gita-Talk discussions.

>

> GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES:

> 1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify their doubts

> related to Gitaji shalokas. Therefore, responses which further

> clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be posted.

> 2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to

> substantiate your response.

> 3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the

> extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas

> 4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting

> sadhaka's time.

> 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only.

> 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other

> organizations.

> 7. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone

> number, address etc.

> 8. Please do not address the response to a particular individual

> since the message is going to the entire group.

> 9. Due to the large readership, all responses may not be posted.

> 10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if content

> is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the group.

> 11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth,

> westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use to

Sanskrit

> words only, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit bracketed

> wherever possible.

>

> MODERATOR

> Ram Ram

> Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Mobile.

Try it now.

>

April 20, 2008

Loving Divine,

Humble pranams.

Everything said so far is good, I agree from the perspective it is

said but, let's see... Whatever I am going to say now is for those

participants who like to contemplate :-).

- Do you agree that God is omnipresent? He is in every atom OR

whatever our senses can perceive - don't perceive is nothing but an

atom of Him (Entire Chapter 10, specifically BG 10: 8, 41), right

(also mamaivaansho jiv loke) (Gita 15:7) " You are part of Me, my

very own Consciousness " . If He is omnipresent then how can He be

separate from body - dead or alive?

- Do you agree that paraa (Consciousness; higher nature) or aparaa

(inert, lower nature), it is still Lord's creation. Lord said that

prakriti (Nature, matter) is His nature (BG 7: 4, 5). Lower or

higher it is still Him, isn't it?

- Science has proven that even rock has consciousness. Lord says

in mountains I am Meru (BG 10:23).

- A body from which the soul has left, in my view, still carries

higher level of consciousness than rock! If left alone in few days

from the same body which we call dead, lots of germs get produced.

Not from rock but from the dead body, many jivatma start thriving,

how come?

- Body is only a solid form of the same consciousness just like ice

to vapor, so how can one say body and soul are separate? Yes, their

nature are different like ice, water & vapor, but they are not

separate.

If we separate them, then Vasudevam sarvam would not be true or the

law of omnipresent will not serve the purpose.

- Scriptures are written but who interprets them? People like us -

with limited knowledge. We continue to interpret it as our

knowledge expands & reaches the state of 'aham brhamasmi'. Then as

Lord says, the purpose of scripture is as good as a pond to an ocean

(BG 2:46).

Please share your thoughts...

always at Thy Holy Feet

Manjula Patel

--

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

Having established the separation of Soul from Body, an important

step in our Sadhana on the path of Self inquiry, we need to proceed

further to inquire about the nature of body-mind and world we

experience. The first step as explained convincingly by Madanji and

Sathyanarayanaji and also others, is, I think, that of crown jewel

of discrimination - Shankara's VivekChudamani.

At this satge it is important to see we are Atman, Pure Conscious

Being, Witnessing Presence within relative to body-mind-intelelct

and externally relative to world.

This is the door through which we can enter Absolute Existence-

Consciouseness, also called SarvatmaBhav(Vasudev sarvam).

As we experience body-mind-intellect and world, they are all just

One Consciousness which is the only Reality of our

experiences. " Witness " and " witnessed " are of the same nature, ONE

Being appearing as separate thoughts. Thus there remains no need to

distinguish.

This is what we experience all the time but don't know it. Anything

I know is sense-mind perceived/conceived object even if that object

is gross(jada) or subtle(chaitnya).

I know body and the world in the exact same way. This body I call

myself and the world perceived, I call different from me. Both are

of the nature of Consciousness, arising as thoughts in Consciousness

and merge back into Consciousness with every new perceptions. One

can appreciate this; we experience being Conscious of some forms the

instant we perceive. It is whole awareness in which no subject-

object differentiations exist.

Another instant a thought arise helped by cognitive faculty which

conceptualize the experience of wholeness into I, the observer,

taken as permanent individual-me, and observed objects.

Consciousness is Citta, and the Vritti is the shape that Citta takes

on upon perceiving objects called citta-vritti. So our connection to

the world and the body we call " I " is through this Consciousness-

citta-vritti. There is no independent world which can be experienced

without being Cosncious!

So all we call I, me, mine and other things I consider not mine are

One and only Consciousness conditioned as different objects-

vrittis. We can live as if all things thus perceived/conceived are

I or God(supreme Consciousness) only (all bodies, animate or

inanimate). This goes a long way toward Moksha!

Namaskar! Pratap.

(Pratap Bhatt)

---

Body (indriyas (senses), praan (life force), chitta, buddhi

(intellect), manah (mind), dharma and each ones' universe of

perceptibility and domain of action) is individuals' Kshetra

(field) and its individual Knowers of each are Kshetragnya (knower

of field). Bhagwat Gita has Chapter 13 dedicated to it. Sri Krishna

is that Kestragnya (knower of fields) who knows all Kshetra

(fields). In other place, Sri Krishna says the entire universe as

His picture and each individual sees it in their personnal points of

view. Seer (observer) and seen (object) are separate as long as it

is seen with a point of view (ahankaar). As it goes down, the seen

and seer become one, and inseparable.

Regards

K G

(Krishna Gopal)

---

jai RAM ji,

When body is destroyed what happens to soul ?

Santosh Rastogi

---

, Madan kaura <madan_kaura

wrote:

>

> Shree Hari

>

> Priya Sadhaka, prasana ke liye dhanyavad!

>

> Param Sharadhya Swamiji Maharaj pointed out this key fact time

and again in his discourses that body and soul are indeed different

entities. Incorrect assumption on the part of the Sadhaka that he is

the body is the main reason for his bondage to the world, resulting

in pain and suffering. It is also the cause for him to continue in

the birth and death cycle.

>

> For a minute if we hypothetically assume that we are the body

then who is getting Moksha, who is going to heaven since the body

dies, is everything finished right here. It is impossible to prove

that the body and soul are one and the same but it is much easier to

prove that they are separate. The separation of body and soul can be

visualized in a few different ways, e.g.,

>

> · We know from our own daily experience, when we are in

deep sleep, we do not have the awareness of not only the body but

also prana, senses, mind and intellect. But the soul (consciousness)

is always present because after we wake up, we say I had a very

sound sleep, who was there to make a note of our being in deep

sleep. It is that consciousness (awareness) which never goes to

sleep. It is that awareness which imparts the light to make us of

aware of awareness itself.

>

> · When we are living in a house, the house and us are

separate entities from each other but we do need the house to live

in.

>

> · In the sky (or space), many times there are clouds,

lightening, rain, smoke, mighty wind storm etc. but the sky is not

affected by any of these. The soul is likewise not affected by

constant changes happening in the body.

>

> · The body is subject to modification (change from

child, youth & old age) and decay, prana energy is slowly depleting

with aging of the body, with time, prana stops and the body dies.

The body needs prana energy to continue to live but the soul does

not need any prana to live on.

>

> · The body, prana, senses, mind and intellect are inert

without the consciousness principle. As we know, the body cannot

exist without the soul but the soul does exist without the body.

>

> · Among the Hindu scriptures, Upnishads (knowledge

portion of the Vedas), Brahm Sutras and Bhagavad Gita are called the

Scriptural Trinity- Prasthanatrayam. They constitute the final

authority on scriptural matters. There is no conflict of views among

these three. The elucidation of the distinction between the body &

soul principle, the truth about ultimate Reality and other spiritual

truths are explained very clearly in these. Many verses in Gitaji

also explain the same truths. Some of the verses signifying the body

and soul distinction are as follows:

>

> · 2/11-2/30 - explain the difference between the Sharira

(body) and Shariri (Atma)

> · 7/4 - Apara Prakriti - indicates the similarity

between body and Prikariti

> · 7/5 - Para prikriti - which explains about soul

pervading all over the body yet not connected with the body, Para is

different from Apara Prakriti

> · 13/1 and 13/2 - explains Kshetra and Kshetrajana, body

is the Kshetra, body and mind are the where the seeds of good and

bad karmas are sowed, while Kshetrajana is the one who knows the

body as Kshetra. Lord Krishna says that He is the Kshetrajana in

all.

> · 13/6 - Kshetra and Kshetrajan come together for the

beings to be born and to be existing.

> · 15/7 – The Jiva (soul) in the body is an eternal

portion of Myself. Being seated in the Prakriti, it attracts

(considers his own) the senses (five) – the mind being the sixth.

> · 15/8 – When Jiva takes up a body and when He leaves

it, He leaves taking these, (senses and mind) as the wind carries

the scents from their sources.

>

> Humble regards,

> Madan Kaura

>

> sadhak_insight <sadhak_insight wrote:

>

> respected shriman ji

> jai shri ram ki

>

> It is fact that body and soul (atma) are both separate, but in

> actuality is it really so ? Is it only external knowledge or is

> this knowledge from within? Is this internally realized by anyone

> in this world? If there is, then tell me - How does one become

> freed from this illusion of maya ? This does not seem something

> that is within my reach.

>

> Daily I seem to be getting more deeply trapped. Demands of this

> body, demands of the family, and who knows who all we keep running

> after day in and day out. If we do not run around for worldly

work,

> then daily there are new fights, wife says why are you running

away

> to satsangs ? Our God is in our home, where is your God ? If I do

> name recitation (nama japa), she says - becoming like an ascetic,

> simply sitting, not wanting to do any work at home, this is a good

> way to escape the chores. Now, you only tell me what to do ? Is

> this how the world is ?

>

> I beg you to please show me the way.

>

> Let there be God's immmense grace and blessing,

> jai ram ji ki

> B.R.Bishnoi

>

> IN HINDI .........

>

> dono alag alag hain parntu esa atuality main nahi hota hain kya

> problem hain,bahari gyan hain under ka esa gyan nahi hain.under ke

> gyan ko koi hain kya es dunia main,adi hain to bata do muge .maya

se

> sutkara kase ho sakat hain, mere bas ki to bat hain nahi har pal

aur

> gahare dal-dal main fasta jaraha haun.sarir ki demand, parivar ki

> demand aur na jane kis -kis ke liye har pal bhagte rahate hain.

nahi

> bhage to nit naya jagada,patni kahati hain kyon bhagte ho satsang

ke

> liye ,hamara bhagwan to hamare ghar main hain, tumara bhagwan

kahan

> hain!nam jap karo to kahati hain ki baba ji banjao, bus beth gye

> hain,ghar ka koi kam nahi karna hain ,acha tarika hain pichha

surane

> ka, bhakti ke nam se dhong karte raho, maje se ankh bandh karke so

> jao. ab mujhe ap batayega kya karana , esi duniya ka.

> ap marg darshan karne ki ati kripa kare.

> prabhu ki bahoot-bahoot kripa ho

> jai ram ji ki

> B.R.Bishnoi

> -------------------------

>

> FROM THE MODERATOR

>

> The following are the guidelines for Gita-Talk discussions.

>

> GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES:

> 1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify their doubts

> related to Gitaji shalokas. Therefore, responses which further

> clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be posted.

> 2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to

> substantiate your response.

> 3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the

> extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas

> 4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting

> sadhaka's time.

> 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only.

> 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other

> organizations.

> 7. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone

> number, address etc.

> 8. Please do not address the response to a particular individual

> since the message is going to the entire group.

> 9. Due to the large readership, all responses may not be posted.

> 10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if

content

> is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the group.

> 11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth,

> westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use to

Sanskrit

> words only, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit

bracketed

> wherever possible.

>

> MODERATOR

> Ram Ram

> Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with

Mobile. Try it now.

>

April 22, 2008

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

I just want to make one more observation to build further on what

has been said already. The ultimate realization is that Everything

is just ONE Consciousness undifferentiated, undivided, everywhere

and nowhere, all things and no-things.

What I want to say is that in order to experience " everything is

Cosnciousness-God " , it is not necessary that mountains, oceans, and

all we call Jada-insantients objects have consciousness, even though

we can say they have lower consciousness. What is more important to

see is that they all have their beings rooted in our knowingness

(same as Cosnciousness)! Their existences are made evident to us by

consciousness only.

The fact is that nothing can be experienced without being conscious

of that thing in terms of either thoughts in the mind or

feeling/emotion in the body expressed as spoken or unspoken words.

So we do experience even insantients-jada-prakriti in terms of

conscious thoughts only, there is no other way to perceive/cognize

objects. In all our experiences be that of pleasures or pains,

Consciousness is conscious of Itself all the time. Only mind carves

out from such knowingness into objects of which it assumes itself

the subject, just as a statue is carved out of One stone!

The whole appears as parts. Like a tree appears as branches, leaves,

roots, flowers, etc but together constitute reality of the tree. So

a leave is as much a tree as a branch or root, as long as they are

connected as one system called Tree!. Similarly Consciousness-

Godhood is such a system whose branches, leaves, flowers, roots etc

we are! Without this essential connection, neither leave, nor

branch, etc can survive independently.

What we are is not a leave or a branch, etc but the whole tree. We

are not ansha of Ishwara but we are the whole!

Pratap

(Pratap Bhatt)

--

dear divine souls !

soul is separate from the body and how to ....??

1) Kshar akshar uttam... kshar mutable creatures (my eight fold

divided nature..mahabhutani ahankaar budhi avayktam eva ch..)

This is plane of Matter.

2) Akshar...the Silence inactive Brahman..nirgun niraakaar

Brahman who is the Substratum Reality..the stage..this is Spiritual

the Field of Consciousness, the subtle part beyond the realm of MIND.

When embodied soul (jiva) identifies itself with his name and form,

he is merely sanctioning the works of energy (Updrishta)and is not

the form itself.

Uttam.

Ishwar and Shakti moves the world as upara(higher...Nature..)

Now there are two different planes all together.

1) Prakriti..which consists of matter(5),ego(6),and mind(7) and (8)

energy prakirti

2) Spirit.. God is present in every atom.. but He is subtle

Conscious Witness.and not the Energy(Phenomenan)

So our physical existence..He is Not the doer

He is Other Than Body and Not the Body. Body is His instrument..and

not Himself..

here i disagree with Manjula ji

once the soul has left the body... body is merely lump of

matter..Inert jada..like minerals and otherwise..many jivatman are

thriving... they can thrive in a filthy mud ..but we cannot

consider it higher consciousness... hence body and soul are seperate

planes altogether...

Others are Free to disagree..

thanks.

kuldip

eternal child.

---

Dear friends,

1) If you are 60 years old where were you a day before 60 years?

2) If you never existed earlier, you are not going exits after

death.

3) If you existed earlier, then you were in some form.

So in both the cases, it was the body that came to this earth and

disappeared.

When one dies, his body with all organs is intact for few hours.

But the body has no actions of any sort or feelings of any sort.

That means the energy or soul or the prana left the body. Means body

is separate from soul. In case of anesthesia administered, the body

losses senses under control. But immediately after anesthesia effect

fades away, all senses manifests. This manifestation effect is done

by something in the body. That something is called soul by Hindus,

called as Sprit by Christians..In Bagavath Geetha Bagavan has

explained clearly.

From Srimath Bagavath: Yoga Bharatha desired to rare a deer. He was

born as deer. Due to abundant yoga and puiya earlier the deer had

the previous birth remembrances. Then again born as JADA BHARATH. It

is mostly possible to attain liberation by human birth alone.

PURANAS; Sri Rama took incarnation (appearances not birth) as Sri

Krishna.

That is why our Vedas say you are that Brahman. You are not able to

realize the fact dues to Vasanas (Desires) in the body.

Saint Thirumoolar lived 3000 years. He said in Tamil—( Asai Arumin

Asai Arumin Easan Ayinum Asai Arumin) means the desire does effect

even Eswar. YOGEES: They come to stage of no desires and then only

they send their soul through (Susuba Nadi) nerve in spinal to

blissful stage of divinity.

Now About us:-- Our senses are limited. Gana Sakthi- Kriya Sakthi-

Echicha Sakthi. ( Gana- ability- Desire) One by accident is about

fall from tree branch braking. He has Gana that he will get

injured/die. His ability is not saving. His desire not to fall, but

cannot help. That is the limitation which is considered very very

low. A saint can fall to the ground like a feather and walk off. The

saint acquires SIDIS. The Sidis (Astama Sidis- 8 types of super

natural powers) can be got by constant practice of PURITY of mind as

said by sastras.

Bagavan says in Geetha to Arjuna: I know all who comes and goes on

this earth, but no one realizes ME.

Reading Kapila Geetha will give insight of the body and soul

Once again I request the mediator to organize people for sat sangh

and I can provide much details from scripts, Vedas, puranas in audio

and video format.

Sarve Janoba Sukino Bavanthu.

B.Sathyanarayan

---

Sir,

We should differentiate between a FACT & FAITH. The body is a

fact whereas the soul or the God is a faith. Therefore, there can be

no corroboration between the TWO.

you can make deductions only from established truth and

not conjuctures and imaginations. Like the Logical syllogism:-

All men are mortal [ This is proved]

Nehru is a man [ This also is proved and true]

Therefore Nehru is mortal.[This is the deduction from the 1st. truth]

So, till we know what that soul and God are, it is useless to be

wasting our time on it. So, what next ?

The vedas proclaim the Maha Vakya " Tatva Masi " Aham Brahmasmi "

Which says " that thou art " OR " I am brahman "

Here " I " is the matter which we see and feel, while Brahamn is pure

energy. It says " I " the matter is the Pure energy Brahman.Brahman

exists either as pure energy or as Matter. Brahman cannot be

simultaneeously in the Form of energy and Matter.

Einstein, the great scientist proved that E = MC SQUARE. THAT IS ALL

MATTER IS ENERGY AND VISE VERSA. IF YOU DESTROY MATTER IT TURNS INTO

ENERGY. SO WE HAVE TO DESTROY THE " I'.It is matter. and it becomes

pure energy that is Brahman. This was proved by Budha, Shankara,

recently Ramakrishna Parmahansa, Vivekananda, Jiddu krishna

Murthy, Bhagavan Ramana Maharshi. So Realise the " I " [ Who am I] Do

sadhana and you will get to know the " I " which is the truth. You may

call it God if you like.

So, it is better that we pursue this truth " Who am I " instead of

groping in the dark with the Soul and God. Tamasoma Jyotirgamaya.

shali_homma

---

, " sadhak_insight "

<sadhak_insight wrote:

>

> Loving Divine,

> Humble pranams.

> Everything said so far is good, I agree from the perspective it is

> said but, let's see... Whatever I am going to say now is for

those

> participants who like to contemplate :-).

>

> - Do you agree that God is omnipresent? He is in every atom OR

> whatever our senses can perceive - don't perceive is nothing but

an

> atom of Him (Entire Chapter 10, specifically BG 10: 8, 41), right

> (also mamaivaansho jiv loke) (Gita 15:7) " You are part of Me, my

> very own Consciousness " . If He is omnipresent then how can He be

> separate from body - dead or alive?

> - Do you agree that paraa (Consciousness; higher nature) or

aparaa

> (inert, lower nature), it is still Lord's creation. Lord said

that

> prakriti (Nature, matter) is His nature (BG 7: 4, 5). Lower or

> higher it is still Him, isn't it?

> - Science has proven that even rock has consciousness. Lord says

> in mountains I am Meru (BG 10:23).

> - A body from which the soul has left, in my view, still carries

> higher level of consciousness than rock! If left alone in few

days

> from the same body which we call dead, lots of germs get

produced.

> Not from rock but from the dead body, many jivatma start thriving,

> how come?

> - Body is only a solid form of the same consciousness just like

ice

> to vapor, so how can one say body and soul are separate? Yes,

their

> nature are different like ice, water & vapor, but they are not

> separate.

> If we separate them, then Vasudevam sarvam would not be true or

the

> law of omnipresent will not serve the purpose.

> - Scriptures are written but who interprets them? People like

us -

> with limited knowledge. We continue to interpret it as our

> knowledge expands & reaches the state of 'aham brhamasmi'. Then

as

> Lord says, the purpose of scripture is as good as a pond to an

ocean

> (BG 2:46).

>

> Please share your thoughts...

> always at Thy Holy Feet

>

> Manjula Patel

> -

-

> Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

>

> Having established the separation of Soul from Body, an important

> step in our Sadhana on the path of Self inquiry, we need to

proceed

> further to inquire about the nature of body-mind and world we

> experience. The first step as explained convincingly by Madanji

and

> Sathyanarayanaji and also others, is, I think, that of crown jewel

> of discrimination - Shankara's VivekChudamani.

>

> At this satge it is important to see we are Atman, Pure Conscious

> Being, Witnessing Presence within relative to body-mind-intelelct

> and externally relative to world.

>

> This is the door through which we can enter Absolute Existence-

> Consciouseness, also called SarvatmaBhav(Vasudev sarvam).

>

> As we experience body-mind-intellect and world, they are all just

> One Consciousness which is the only Reality of our

> experiences. " Witness " and " witnessed " are of the same nature, ONE

> Being appearing as separate thoughts. Thus there remains no need

to

> distinguish.

>

> This is what we experience all the time but don't know it.

Anything

> I know is sense-mind perceived/conceived object even if that

object

> is gross(jada) or subtle(chaitnya).

>

> I know body and the world in the exact same way. This body I call

> myself and the world perceived, I call different from me. Both are

> of the nature of Consciousness, arising as thoughts in

Consciousness

> and merge back into Consciousness with every new perceptions. One

> can appreciate this; we experience being Conscious of some forms

the

> instant we perceive. It is whole awareness in which no subject-

> object differentiations exist.

>

> Another instant a thought arise helped by cognitive faculty which

> conceptualize the experience of wholeness into I, the observer,

> taken as permanent individual-me, and observed objects.

> Consciousness is Citta, and the Vritti is the shape that Citta

takes

> on upon perceiving objects called citta-vritti. So our connection

to

> the world and the body we call " I " is through this Consciousness-

> citta-vritti. There is no independent world which can be

experienced

> without being Cosncious!

>

> So all we call I, me, mine and other things I consider not mine

are

> One and only Consciousness conditioned as different objects-

> vrittis. We can live as if all things thus perceived/conceived

are

> I or God(supreme Consciousness) only (all bodies, animate or

> inanimate). This goes a long way toward Moksha!

>

> Namaskar! Pratap.

>

> (Pratap Bhatt)

>

> -

--

> Body (indriyas (senses), praan (life force), chitta, buddhi

> (intellect), manah (mind), dharma and each ones' universe of

> perceptibility and domain of action) is individuals' Kshetra

> (field) and its individual Knowers of each are Kshetragnya (knower

> of field). Bhagwat Gita has Chapter 13 dedicated to it. Sri

Krishna

> is that Kestragnya (knower of fields) who knows all Kshetra

> (fields). In other place, Sri Krishna says the entire universe as

> His picture and each individual sees it in their personnal points

of

> view. Seer (observer) and seen (object) are separate as long as

it

> is seen with a point of view (ahankaar). As it goes down, the seen

> and seer become one, and inseparable.

> Regards

> K G

> (Krishna Gopal)

>

> -

--

> jai RAM ji,

>

> When body is destroyed what happens to soul ?

>

> Santosh Rastogi

> -

--

>

> , Madan kaura <madan_kaura@>

> wrote:

> >

> > Shree Hari

> >

> > Priya Sadhaka, prasana ke liye dhanyavad!

> >

> > Param Sharadhya Swamiji Maharaj pointed out this key fact time

> and again in his discourses that body and soul are indeed

different

> entities. Incorrect assumption on the part of the Sadhaka that he

is

> the body is the main reason for his bondage to the world,

resulting

> in pain and suffering. It is also the cause for him to continue in

> the birth and death cycle.

> >

> > For a minute if we hypothetically assume that we are the body

> then who is getting Moksha, who is going to heaven since the body

> dies, is everything finished right here. It is impossible to prove

> that the body and soul are one and the same but it is much easier

to

> prove that they are separate. The separation of body and soul can

be

> visualized in a few different ways, e.g.,

> >

> > · We know from our own daily experience, when we are

in

> deep sleep, we do not have the awareness of not only the body but

> also prana, senses, mind and intellect. But the soul

(consciousness)

> is always present because after we wake up, we say I had a very

> sound sleep, who was there to make a note of our being in deep

> sleep. It is that consciousness (awareness) which never goes to

> sleep. It is that awareness which imparts the light to make us of

> aware of awareness itself.

> >

> > · When we are living in a house, the house and us are

> separate entities from each other but we do need the house to live

> in.

> >

> > · In the sky (or space), many times there are clouds,

> lightening, rain, smoke, mighty wind storm etc. but the sky is not

> affected by any of these. The soul is likewise not affected by

> constant changes happening in the body.

> >

> > · The body is subject to modification (change from

> child, youth & old age) and decay, prana energy is slowly

depleting

> with aging of the body, with time, prana stops and the body dies.

> The body needs prana energy to continue to live but the soul does

> not need any prana to live on.

> >

> > · The body, prana, senses, mind and intellect are

inert

> without the consciousness principle. As we know, the body cannot

> exist without the soul but the soul does exist without the

body.

> >

> > · Among the Hindu scriptures, Upnishads (knowledge

> portion of the Vedas), Brahm Sutras and Bhagavad Gita are called

the

> Scriptural Trinity- Prasthanatrayam. They constitute the final

> authority on scriptural matters. There is no conflict of views

among

> these three. The elucidation of the distinction between the body &

> soul principle, the truth about ultimate Reality and other

spiritual

> truths are explained very clearly in these. Many verses in Gitaji

> also explain the same truths. Some of the verses signifying the

body

> and soul distinction are as follows:

> >

> > · 2/11-2/30 - explain the difference between the

Sharira

> (body) and Shariri (Atma)

> > · 7/4 - Apara Prakriti - indicates the similarity

> between body and Prikariti

> > · 7/5 - Para prikriti - which explains about soul

> pervading all over the body yet not connected with the body, Para

is

> different from Apara Prakriti

> > · 13/1 and 13/2 - explains Kshetra and Kshetrajana,

body

> is the Kshetra, body and mind are the where the seeds of good and

> bad karmas are sowed, while Kshetrajana is the one who knows the

> body as Kshetra. Lord Krishna says that He is the Kshetrajana in

> all.

> > · 13/6 - Kshetra and Kshetrajan come together for the

> beings to be born and to be existing.

> > · 15/7 – The Jiva (soul) in the body is an eternal

> portion of Myself. Being seated in the Prakriti, it attracts

> (considers his own) the senses (five) – the mind being the sixth.

> > · 15/8 – When Jiva takes up a body and when He leaves

> it, He leaves taking these, (senses and mind) as the wind carries

> the scents from their sources.

> >

> > Humble regards,

> > Madan Kaura

> >

> > sadhak_insight <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> >

> > respected shriman ji

> > jai shri ram ki

> >

> > It is fact that body and soul (atma) are both separate, but in

> > actuality is it really so ? Is it only external knowledge or is

> > this knowledge from within? Is this internally realized by

anyone

> > in this world? If there is, then tell me - How does one become

> > freed from this illusion of maya ? This does not seem something

> > that is within my reach.

> >

> > Daily I seem to be getting more deeply trapped. Demands of this

> > body, demands of the family, and who knows who all we keep

running

> > after day in and day out. If we do not run around for worldly

> work,

> > then daily there are new fights, wife says why are you running

> away

> > to satsangs ? Our God is in our home, where is your God ? If I

do

> > name recitation (nama japa), she says - becoming like an

ascetic,

> > simply sitting, not wanting to do any work at home, this is a

good

> > way to escape the chores. Now, you only tell me what to do ? Is

> > this how the world is ?

> >

> > I beg you to please show me the way.

> >

> > Let there be God's immmense grace and blessing,

> > jai ram ji ki

> > B.R.Bishnoi

> >

> > IN HINDI .........

> >

> > dono alag alag hain parntu esa atuality main nahi hota hain kya

> > problem hain,bahari gyan hain under ka esa gyan nahi hain.under

ke

> > gyan ko koi hain kya es dunia main,adi hain to bata do

muge .maya

> se

> > sutkara kase ho sakat hain, mere bas ki to bat hain nahi har pal

> aur

> > gahare dal-dal main fasta jaraha haun.sarir ki demand, parivar

ki

> > demand aur na jane kis -kis ke liye har pal bhagte rahate hain.

> nahi

> > bhage to nit naya jagada,patni kahati hain kyon bhagte ho

satsang

> ke

> > liye ,hamara bhagwan to hamare ghar main hain, tumara bhagwan

> kahan

> > hain!nam jap karo to kahati hain ki baba ji banjao, bus beth gye

> > hain,ghar ka koi kam nahi karna hain ,acha tarika hain pichha

> surane

> > ka, bhakti ke nam se dhong karte raho, maje se ankh bandh karke

so

> > jao. ab mujhe ap batayega kya karana , esi duniya ka.

> > ap marg darshan karne ki ati kripa kare.

> > prabhu ki bahoot-bahoot kripa ho

> > jai ram ji ki

> > B.R.Bishnoi

> > -------------------------

> >

> > FROM THE MODERATOR

> >

> > The following are the guidelines for Gita-Talk discussions.

> >

> > GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES:

> > 1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify their doubts

> > related to Gitaji shalokas. Therefore, responses which further

> > clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be posted.

> > 2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to

> > substantiate your response.

> > 3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the

> > extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas

> > 4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting

> > sadhaka's time.

> > 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only.

> > 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other

> > organizations.

> > 7. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone

> > number, address etc.

> > 8. Please do not address the response to a particular individual

> > since the message is going to the entire group.

> > 9. Due to the large readership, all responses may not be posted.

> > 10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if

> content

> > is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the group.

> > 11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth,

> > westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use to

> Sanskrit

> > words only, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit

> bracketed

> > wherever possible.

> >

> > MODERATOR

> > Ram Ram

> >

> > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with

> Mobile. Try it now.

> >

>

April 26, 2008

Dear Friends:

ARE SOUL AND BODY DIFFERENT? IS BODY REAL OR SOUL? All such

questions are created in a confused doubtful mind. How can a

confused entity provide any solution that is free of its confusion?

Yet, we have no other instrument to depend upon … that is our

dilemma.

WE SHOULD NOT MISUNDERSTAND BHAGAVAN VYASA OR RAMSUKHDASJI OR ANY

SUCH GREAT SAINT AS SUCH. ALL SAINTS INSIST THAT " I AM NOT BODY " . AT

THE SAME TIME, THEY ALSO DECLARE THAT " I AM EVERYTHING " . YOU HAVE TO

APPRECIATE THE CONTEXT OF " I " WHEN THEY UTTER SUCH WONDERFUL THINGS

e.g. April 23 Sadhaka circular on " What is I? " .

From perceptional point of view body is " real " and soul (individual

self) is a belief.

From experiential point of view the soul (individual self) is real

and body is a belief.

The natural tendency in existential experience is the apparent

fragmentation in the perception. With such fragmentation, it is

obvious for anybody to perceive that body and soul are different and

that one of it is the basis for the other etc. Then the argument

should be completed … one body is different from another; one soul

is different from another; and The God is different from the bodies

and souls … nothing can be the same as another … the life is

variety. You may want to refer to Madhvacharya's great work on

Pancha Tattva.

Yathodakam durge vrishtam parvateshu vidhavati |

Evam dharman prithak pashyan thanevanu vidhavati ||

Though some people may say water is water, you can continue to

insist that every water particle remains distinct in spite of where

it stands – ocean, cloud, river, or your stomach. The logic is

flawless. But stick to it. Then you will have no room to worry.

After all you are one just like anything else. Nothing special can

be assumed about yourself. Therefore, you have no right to demand

for anything. Accordingly, you cannot worry if you stick to your

belief.

Nothing wrong in such thinking. Stick to it. If you stick to it, you

will have no room to complain … after all you are a miniscule

creature in the infinitude of creation in space and time … you are

just a pawn in the game of Life … play your role as per the rules of

the game ... even if that role is to loose your limbs or to loose

your body … just play the game and enjoy the participation. One who

thinks that he just a creation just like anything else around has no

room to think that he/she is special and hence deserves to dictate

things around to serve her/him.

Yastu sarvani bhutani aatmanyevanupashyate |

Sarvabhuteshu chaatmaanam tatho na vijugupsate ||

In such case, everything in creation has absolutely equal

importance. If keep it that way our belief is an understanding;

else, it is a superstition.

Well, one can also argue the other way. I have never seen the soul

separate from the body. I have never seen the body separate from the

world. How can they be independent of each other? In fact, how can

they be different? After all everything is nothing but matter-energy

cluster creating itself perpetually. The inseparable matter and

energy can never be different as they can never exist in isolation.

Whether water is in my mouth or stomach or cup or river or ocean or

cloud … the water remains water and has never ruptured from the fact

of being water at any time.

Yathodakam shuddhe shuddham aasiktam taadrigeva bhavati |

Evam munervijanatah aatmaa bhavati goutam ||

It may appear counter intuitive. But yet such an understanding

becomes the only possibility under sharp vigilance of an intellect

as the perception is shifted to microscopic and macroscopic planes

of visions. Study the development of Physics from Aristotle to

Newton to Enstein to Hawkins to …

From this perspective, all the objects in the universe are nothing

but the unique matter-energy cluster knit in space and time. Truly

speaking, I cannot separate any of them from each other – be it

matter or energy or space or time – in any manner. Then how can I

see many?

Yastu sarvani bhutani aatmaivaabhut vijanatah |

Tatra ko mohah ko shokah ekatvamanupashyatah ||

Good. Nothing wrong. But stick to it. Again, you will have no room

to worry. When there is nothing around but the Unity, what can

attract your attention to desire for and what can repel you to be

afraid of?

Are they – soul and body – different or not? One can never establish

this within one's perception or experience as they both remain

lopsided in their interactions – the former deals with the external

physical world; the later deals with the internal ethereal world.

One has to make an observation here that they are intact in

themselves and relate to each other in full integrity in spite of

their distinctly exclusive domains of existence and operation. The

Strength that nurtures their individual integrity, The Force that

establishes exclusive relation between them and The Vital Power that

remains the inherent integrity in the union of the apparently

exclusive worlds remains a mystery. Any attempt to evaluate THAT

would be lack of wisdom and integrity in any individual.

How can any number of elements such as mind, senses, body, objects

etc. establish their Common Source of Vitality, their Common Support

of Existence, and their Common Medium of Communication with their

obstinately fragmented existence and behavior? Any attempt to

examine THAT with our body-sense-mind clusters remains futile and

force us to stick to an extreme depending on our current existential

state. Interestingly, we will attain THAT in any position if we are

truthful. Unfortunately, as soon as we take a position of any kind,

its opposite becomes the biggest attraction to our existence and

distraction in our behavior. Therefore, we end up debating making an

issue out of nothing. Humans have argued, fought and waged war over

such debates over millenniums for no use. They will continue to do

so in spite of the clear suggestions built in our scriptures. One

who harbors conflicts within is bound to perceive the same in

everything and is helpless to seek the same in the name of solution

to the indwelling conflicts of desires and fears.

The obvious reason is the inevitable cessation created between the

thought process and the body in the very mechanism of cognition. One

cannot cognize unless the mind occupies a subjective position

pushing everything else (including the body and even senses) into an

objective position. Beware of the fact that even Brahman is

objectified by the mind when you think about it! That is why

Kathopanishat teaches us that we are THAT only when our ego is

completely shut. As soon as our thought process is active, even THAT

becomes an object of our contemplation.

Respects.

Naga Narayana.

Loving Divine,

Pranam. Thanks for your replies, highly appreciated...

Even though it was not stated clearly, it is jivaatma (embodied

soul) who leaves the body but the Cosmic Soul still remains and due

to its presence, jivatmaa keeps on being born even from a so called

dead body.

Yes, it is energy which keeps on getting converted from one object

to another. This object or matter is the carrier of this energy

like wire to electricity or brahmaand to worlds. But in case of

jivaatmaa 'I' one can not separate the energy from themselves, this

I is The Energy like sun and rays are inseparable. When one becomes

capable of perceiving this energy, actually no body remains for that

being (he/she is liberated) even though this body, still alive is

visible to others.

Thanks again.

humble regards,

always at Thy Holy Feet

Manjula Patel

--

, " sadhak_insight "

<sadhak_insight wrote:

>

> Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

>

> I just want to make one more observation to build further on what

> has been said already. The ultimate realization is that Everything

> is just ONE Consciousness undifferentiated, undivided, everywhere

> and nowhere, all things and no-things.

>

> What I want to say is that in order to experience " everything is

> Cosnciousness-God " , it is not necessary that mountains, oceans,

and

> all we call Jada-insantients objects have consciousness, even

though

> we can say they have lower consciousness. What is more important

to

> see is that they all have their beings rooted in our knowingness

> (same as Cosnciousness)! Their existences are made evident to us

by

> consciousness only.

>

> The fact is that nothing can be experienced without being

conscious

> of that thing in terms of either thoughts in the mind or

> feeling/emotion in the body expressed as spoken or unspoken words.

> So we do experience even insantients-jada-prakriti in terms of

> conscious thoughts only, there is no other way to perceive/cognize

> objects. In all our experiences be that of pleasures or pains,

> Consciousness is conscious of Itself all the time. Only mind

carves

> out from such knowingness into objects of which it assumes itself

> the subject, just as a statue is carved out of One stone!

>

> The whole appears as parts. Like a tree appears as branches,

leaves,

> roots, flowers, etc but together constitute reality of the tree.

So

> a leave is as much a tree as a branch or root, as long as they are

> connected as one system called Tree!. Similarly Consciousness-

> Godhood is such a system whose branches, leaves, flowers, roots

etc

> we are! Without this essential connection, neither leave, nor

> branch, etc can survive independently.

>

> What we are is not a leave or a branch, etc but the whole tree. We

> are not ansha of Ishwara but we are the whole!

>

> Pratap

> (Pratap Bhatt)

> -

-

>

> dear divine souls !

>

> soul is separate from the body and how to ....??

>

> 1) Kshar akshar uttam... kshar mutable creatures (my eight fold

> divided nature..mahabhutani ahankaar budhi avayktam eva ch..)

> This is plane of Matter.

> 2) Akshar...the Silence inactive Brahman..nirgun niraakaar

> Brahman who is the Substratum Reality..the stage..this is

Spiritual

> the Field of Consciousness, the subtle part beyond the realm of

MIND.

> When embodied soul (jiva) identifies itself with his name and

form,

> he is merely sanctioning the works of energy (Updrishta)and is not

> the form itself.

> Uttam.

> Ishwar and Shakti moves the world as upara(higher...Nature..)

> Now there are two different planes all together.

>

> 1) Prakriti..which consists of matter(5),ego(6),and mind(7) and (8)

> energy prakirti

> 2) Spirit.. God is present in every atom.. but He is subtle

> Conscious Witness.and not the Energy(Phenomenan)

>

> So our physical existence..He is Not the doer

> He is Other Than Body and Not the Body. Body is His

instrument..and

> not Himself..

> here i disagree with Manjula ji

> once the soul has left the body... body is merely lump of

> matter..Inert jada..like minerals and otherwise..many jivatman are

> thriving... they can thrive in a filthy mud ..but we cannot

> consider it higher consciousness... hence body and soul are

seperate

> planes altogether...

>

> Others are Free to disagree..

> thanks.

> kuldip

> eternal child.

> -

--

>

> Dear friends,

> 1) If you are 60 years old where were you a day before 60

years?

> 2) If you never existed earlier, you are not going exits

after

> death.

> 3) If you existed earlier, then you were in some form.

> So in both the cases, it was the body that came to this earth and

> disappeared.

> When one dies, his body with all organs is intact for few hours.

> But the body has no actions of any sort or feelings of any sort.

> That means the energy or soul or the prana left the body. Means

body

> is separate from soul. In case of anesthesia administered, the

body

> losses senses under control. But immediately after anesthesia

effect

> fades away, all senses manifests. This manifestation effect is

done

> by something in the body. That something is called soul by Hindus,

> called as Sprit by Christians..In Bagavath Geetha Bagavan has

> explained clearly.

>

> From Srimath Bagavath: Yoga Bharatha desired to rare a deer. He

was

> born as deer. Due to abundant yoga and puiya earlier the deer had

> the previous birth remembrances. Then again born as JADA BHARATH.

It

> is mostly possible to attain liberation by human birth alone.

> PURANAS; Sri Rama took incarnation (appearances not birth) as Sri

> Krishna.

> That is why our Vedas say you are that Brahman. You are not able

to

> realize the fact dues to Vasanas (Desires) in the body.

> Saint Thirumoolar lived 3000 years. He said in Tamil—( Asai Arumin

> Asai Arumin Easan Ayinum Asai Arumin) means the desire does effect

> even Eswar. YOGEES: They come to stage of no desires and then only

> they send their soul through (Susuba Nadi) nerve in spinal to

> blissful stage of divinity.

>

> Now About us:-- Our senses are limited. Gana Sakthi- Kriya Sakthi-

> Echicha Sakthi. ( Gana- ability- Desire) One by accident is about

> fall from tree branch braking. He has Gana that he will get

> injured/die. His ability is not saving. His desire not to fall,

but

> cannot help. That is the limitation which is considered very very

> low. A saint can fall to the ground like a feather and walk off.

The

> saint acquires SIDIS. The Sidis (Astama Sidis- 8 types of super

> natural powers) can be got by constant practice of PURITY of mind

as

> said by sastras.

>

> Bagavan says in Geetha to Arjuna: I know all who comes and goes on

> this earth, but no one realizes ME.

> Reading Kapila Geetha will give insight of the body and soul

> Once again I request the mediator to organize people for sat sangh

> and I can provide much details from scripts, Vedas, puranas in

audio

> and video format.

> Sarve Janoba Sukino Bavanthu.

> B.Sathyanarayan

> -

--

> Sir,

> We should differentiate between a FACT & FAITH. The body is a

> fact whereas the soul or the God is a faith. Therefore, there can

be

> no corroboration between the TWO.

>

> you can make deductions only from established truth and

> not conjuctures and imaginations. Like the Logical syllogism:-

> All men are mortal [ This is proved]

> Nehru is a man [ This also is proved and true]

> Therefore Nehru is mortal.[This is the deduction from the 1st.

truth]

> So, till we know what that soul and God are, it is useless to be

> wasting our time on it. So, what next ?

>

> The vedas proclaim the Maha Vakya " Tatva Masi " Aham Brahmasmi "

> Which says " that thou art " OR " I am brahman "

> Here " I " is the matter which we see and feel, while Brahamn is pure

> energy. It says " I " the matter is the Pure energy Brahman.Brahman

> exists either as pure energy or as Matter. Brahman cannot be

> simultaneeously in the Form of energy and Matter.

>

> Einstein, the great scientist proved that E = MC SQUARE. THAT IS

ALL

> MATTER IS ENERGY AND VISE VERSA. IF YOU DESTROY MATTER IT TURNS

INTO

> ENERGY. SO WE HAVE TO DESTROY THE " I'.It is matter. and it becomes

> pure energy that is Brahman. This was proved by Budha, Shankara,

> recently Ramakrishna Parmahansa, Vivekananda, Jiddu krishna

> Murthy, Bhagavan Ramana Maharshi. So Realise the " I " [ Who am I] Do

> sadhana and you will get to know the " I " which is the truth. You

may

> call it God if you like.

>

> So, it is better that we pursue this truth " Who am I " instead of

> groping in the dark with the Soul and God. Tamasoma Jyotirgamaya.

>

> shali_homma

>

> -

--

>

> , " sadhak_insight "

> <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> >

> > Loving Divine,

> > Humble pranams.

> > Everything said so far is good, I agree from the perspective it

is

> > said but, let's see... Whatever I am going to say now is for

> those

> > participants who like to contemplate :-).

> >

> > - Do you agree that God is omnipresent? He is in every atom OR

> > whatever our senses can perceive - don't perceive is nothing but

> an

> > atom of Him (Entire Chapter 10, specifically BG 10: 8, 41),

right

> > (also mamaivaansho jiv loke) (Gita 15:7) " You are part of Me, my

> > very own Consciousness " . If He is omnipresent then how can He

be

> > separate from body - dead or alive?

> > - Do you agree that paraa (Consciousness; higher nature) or

> aparaa

> > (inert, lower nature), it is still Lord's creation. Lord said

> that

> > prakriti (Nature, matter) is His nature (BG 7: 4, 5). Lower or

> > higher it is still Him, isn't it?

> > - Science has proven that even rock has consciousness. Lord

says

> > in mountains I am Meru (BG 10:23).

> > - A body from which the soul has left, in my view, still

carries

> > higher level of consciousness than rock! If left alone in few

> days

> > from the same body which we call dead, lots of germs get

> produced.

> > Not from rock but from the dead body, many jivatma start

thriving,

> > how come?

> > - Body is only a solid form of the same consciousness just like

> ice

> > to vapor, so how can one say body and soul are separate? Yes,

> their

> > nature are different like ice, water & vapor, but they are not

> > separate.

> > If we separate them, then Vasudevam sarvam would not be true or

> the

> > law of omnipresent will not serve the purpose.

> > - Scriptures are written but who interprets them? People like

> us -

> > with limited knowledge. We continue to interpret it as our

> > knowledge expands & reaches the state of 'aham brhamasmi'. Then

> as

> > Lord says, the purpose of scripture is as good as a pond to an

> ocean

> > (BG 2:46).

> >

> > Please share your thoughts...

> > always at Thy Holy Feet

> >

> > Manjula Patel

> > --------------------------------

--

> -

> > Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

> >

> > Having established the separation of Soul from Body, an

important

> > step in our Sadhana on the path of Self inquiry, we need to

> proceed

> > further to inquire about the nature of body-mind and world we

> > experience. The first step as explained convincingly by Madanji

> and

> > Sathyanarayanaji and also others, is, I think, that of crown

jewel

> > of discrimination - Shankara's VivekChudamani.

> >

> > At this satge it is important to see we are Atman, Pure

Conscious

> > Being, Witnessing Presence within relative to body-mind-

intelelct

> > and externally relative to world.

> >

> > This is the door through which we can enter Absolute Existence-

> > Consciouseness, also called SarvatmaBhav(Vasudev sarvam).

> >

> > As we experience body-mind-intellect and world, they are all

just

> > One Consciousness which is the only Reality of our

> > experiences. " Witness " and " witnessed " are of the same nature,

ONE

> > Being appearing as separate thoughts. Thus there remains no need

> to

> > distinguish.

> >

> > This is what we experience all the time but don't know it.

> Anything

> > I know is sense-mind perceived/conceived object even if that

> object

> > is gross(jada) or subtle(chaitnya).

> >

> > I know body and the world in the exact same way. This body I

call

> > myself and the world perceived, I call different from me. Both

are

> > of the nature of Consciousness, arising as thoughts in

> Consciousness

> > and merge back into Consciousness with every new perceptions.

One

> > can appreciate this; we experience being Conscious of some forms

> the

> > instant we perceive. It is whole awareness in which no subject-

> > object differentiations exist.

> >

> > Another instant a thought arise helped by cognitive faculty

which

> > conceptualize the experience of wholeness into I, the observer,

> > taken as permanent individual-me, and observed objects.

> > Consciousness is Citta, and the Vritti is the shape that Citta

> takes

> > on upon perceiving objects called citta-vritti. So our

connection

> to

> > the world and the body we call " I " is through this Consciousness-

> > citta-vritti. There is no independent world which can be

> experienced

> > without being Cosncious!

> >

> > So all we call I, me, mine and other things I consider not mine

> are

> > One and only Consciousness conditioned as different objects-

> > vrittis. We can live as if all things thus perceived/conceived

> are

> > I or God(supreme Consciousness) only (all bodies, animate or

> > inanimate). This goes a long way toward Moksha!

> >

> > Namaskar! Pratap.

> >

> > (Pratap Bhatt)

> >

> > --------------------------------

--

> --

> > Body (indriyas (senses), praan (life force), chitta, buddhi

> > (intellect), manah (mind), dharma and each ones' universe of

> > perceptibility and domain of action) is individuals' Kshetra

> > (field) and its individual Knowers of each are Kshetragnya

(knower

> > of field). Bhagwat Gita has Chapter 13 dedicated to it. Sri

> Krishna

> > is that Kestragnya (knower of fields) who knows all Kshetra

> > (fields). In other place, Sri Krishna says the entire universe

as

> > His picture and each individual sees it in their personnal

points

> of

> > view. Seer (observer) and seen (object) are separate as long as

> it

> > is seen with a point of view (ahankaar). As it goes down, the

seen

> > and seer become one, and inseparable.

> > Regards

> > K G

> > (Krishna Gopal)

> >

> > --------------------------------

--

> --

> > jai RAM ji,

> >

> > When body is destroyed what happens to soul ?

> >

> > Santosh Rastogi

> > --------------------------------

--

> --

> >

> > , Madan kaura <madan_kaura@>

> > wrote:

> > >

> > > Shree Hari

> > >

> > > Priya Sadhaka, prasana ke liye dhanyavad!

> > >

> > > Param Sharadhya Swamiji Maharaj pointed out this key fact

time

> > and again in his discourses that body and soul are indeed

> different

> > entities. Incorrect assumption on the part of the Sadhaka that

he

> is

> > the body is the main reason for his bondage to the world,

> resulting

> > in pain and suffering. It is also the cause for him to continue

in

> > the birth and death cycle.

> > >

> > > For a minute if we hypothetically assume that we are the

body

> > then who is getting Moksha, who is going to heaven since the

body

> > dies, is everything finished right here. It is impossible to

prove

> > that the body and soul are one and the same but it is much

easier

> to

> > prove that they are separate. The separation of body and soul

can

> be

> > visualized in a few different ways, e.g.,

> > >

> > > · We know from our own daily experience, when we are

> in

> > deep sleep, we do not have the awareness of not only the body

but

> > also prana, senses, mind and intellect. But the soul

> (consciousness)

> > is always present because after we wake up, we say I had a very

> > sound sleep, who was there to make a note of our being in deep

> > sleep. It is that consciousness (awareness) which never goes to

> > sleep. It is that awareness which imparts the light to make us

of

> > aware of awareness itself.

> > >

> > > · When we are living in a house, the house and us

are

> > separate entities from each other but we do need the house to

live

> > in.

> > >

> > > · In the sky (or space), many times there are

clouds,

> > lightening, rain, smoke, mighty wind storm etc. but the sky is

not

> > affected by any of these. The soul is likewise not affected by

> > constant changes happening in the body.

> > >

> > > · The body is subject to modification (change from

> > child, youth & old age) and decay, prana energy is slowly

> depleting

> > with aging of the body, with time, prana stops and the body

dies.

> > The body needs prana energy to continue to live but the soul

does

> > not need any prana to live on.

> > >

> > > · The body, prana, senses, mind and intellect are

> inert

> > without the consciousness principle. As we know, the body cannot

> > exist without the soul but the soul does exist without the

> body.

> > >

> > > · Among the Hindu scriptures, Upnishads (knowledge

> > portion of the Vedas), Brahm Sutras and Bhagavad Gita are called

> the

> > Scriptural Trinity- Prasthanatrayam. They constitute the final

> > authority on scriptural matters. There is no conflict of views

> among

> > these three. The elucidation of the distinction between the body

&

> > soul principle, the truth about ultimate Reality and other

> spiritual

> > truths are explained very clearly in these. Many verses in

Gitaji

> > also explain the same truths. Some of the verses signifying the

> body

> > and soul distinction are as follows:

> > >

> > > · 2/11-2/30 - explain the difference between the

> Sharira

> > (body) and Shariri (Atma)

> > > · 7/4 - Apara Prakriti - indicates the similarity

> > between body and Prikariti

> > > · 7/5 - Para prikriti - which explains about soul

> > pervading all over the body yet not connected with the body,

Para

> is

> > different from Apara Prakriti

> > > · 13/1 and 13/2 - explains Kshetra and Kshetrajana,

> body

> > is the Kshetra, body and mind are the where the seeds of good

and

> > bad karmas are sowed, while Kshetrajana is the one who knows the

> > body as Kshetra. Lord Krishna says that He is the Kshetrajana in

> > all.

> > > · 13/6 - Kshetra and Kshetrajan come together for

the

> > beings to be born and to be existing.

> > > · 15/7 – The Jiva (soul) in the body is an eternal

> > portion of Myself. Being seated in the Prakriti, it attracts

> > (considers his own) the senses (five) – the mind being the sixth.

> > > · 15/8 – When Jiva takes up a body and when He

leaves

> > it, He leaves taking these, (senses and mind) as the wind

carries

> > the scents from their sources.

> > >

> > > Humble regards,

> > > Madan Kaura

> > >

> > > sadhak_insight <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > >

> > > respected shriman ji

> > > jai shri ram ki

> > >

> > > It is fact that body and soul (atma) are both separate, but in

> > > actuality is it really so ? Is it only external knowledge or

is

> > > this knowledge from within? Is this internally realized by

> anyone

> > > in this world? If there is, then tell me - How does one become

> > > freed from this illusion of maya ? This does not seem

something

> > > that is within my reach.

> > >

> > > Daily I seem to be getting more deeply trapped. Demands of

this

> > > body, demands of the family, and who knows who all we keep

> running

> > > after day in and day out. If we do not run around for worldly

> > work,

> > > then daily there are new fights, wife says why are you running

> > away

> > > to satsangs ? Our God is in our home, where is your God ? If I

> do

> > > name recitation (nama japa), she says - becoming like an

> ascetic,

> > > simply sitting, not wanting to do any work at home, this is a

> good

> > > way to escape the chores. Now, you only tell me what to do ?

Is

> > > this how the world is ?

> > >

> > > I beg you to please show me the way.

> > >

> > > Let there be God's immmense grace and blessing,

> > > jai ram ji ki

> > > B.R.Bishnoi

> > >

> > > IN HINDI .........

> > >

> > > dono alag alag hain parntu esa atuality main nahi hota hain

kya

> > > problem hain,bahari gyan hain under ka esa gyan nahi

hain.under

> ke

> > > gyan ko koi hain kya es dunia main,adi hain to bata do

> muge .maya

> > se

> > > sutkara kase ho sakat hain, mere bas ki to bat hain nahi har

pal

> > aur

> > > gahare dal-dal main fasta jaraha haun.sarir ki demand, parivar

> ki

> > > demand aur na jane kis -kis ke liye har pal bhagte rahate

hain.

> > nahi

> > > bhage to nit naya jagada,patni kahati hain kyon bhagte ho

> satsang

> > ke

> > > liye ,hamara bhagwan to hamare ghar main hain, tumara bhagwan

> > kahan

> > > hain!nam jap karo to kahati hain ki baba ji banjao, bus beth

gye

> > > hain,ghar ka koi kam nahi karna hain ,acha tarika hain pichha

> > surane

> > > ka, bhakti ke nam se dhong karte raho, maje se ankh bandh

karke

> so

> > > jao. ab mujhe ap batayega kya karana , esi duniya ka.

> > > ap marg darshan karne ki ati kripa kare.

> > > prabhu ki bahoot-bahoot kripa ho

> > > jai ram ji ki

> > > B.R.Bishnoi

> > > -------------------------

> > >

> > > FROM THE MODERATOR

> > >

> > > The following are the guidelines for Gita-Talk discussions.

> > >

> > > GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES:

> > > 1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify their

doubts

> > > related to Gitaji shalokas. Therefore, responses which further

> > > clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be posted.

> > > 2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures

to

> > > substantiate your response.

> > > 3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to

the

> > > extent that they further help in understanding the Gita

shlokas

> > > 4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible,

respecting

> > > sadhaka's time.

> > > 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only.

> > > 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other

> > > organizations.

> > > 7. Kindly do not include your personal information such as

phone

> > > number, address etc.

> > > 8. Please do not address the response to a particular

individual

> > > since the message is going to the entire group.

> > > 9. Due to the large readership, all responses may not be

posted.

> > > 10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if

> > content

> > > is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the group.

> > > 11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices,

youth,

> > > westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use to

> > Sanskrit

> > > words only, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit

> > bracketed

> > > wherever possible.

> > >

> > > MODERATOR

> > > Ram Ram

> > >

> > > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with

> > Mobile. Try it now.

> > >

> >

>

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In Actuality is the Body truly separate from the Soul ? How to realize this ?

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