Why Kill Any Living Beings ? Why Pandavas should Kill Kauravas ?

April 27, 2008

Dear Learned Sadhaks

Ram Ram

My 2nd question on Gitaji

All living persons have Atma (Gitaji)

Atma is a part of GOD as I understand.

Therefore all living being are having a common factor called God.

Can we communicate through this common factor (Telepathy, mind

reading, knowing that a person is good or bad and so on)

Each person has God Consciousness(Narayana) in him/her

Serving other person is serving God (Narayana).

Why kill any living being?

Why Pandvas should kill Kauravas?

Please enlighten

me

Jai Sri Krishana

Ramesh Kumar Suri

----------------------------GITA

TALK GROUP GUIDELINES:

1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify their doubts

related to Gitaji shalokas. Therefore, responses which further

clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be posted.

2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to

substantiate your response.

3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the

extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas

4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting

sadhaka's time.

5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only.

6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other

organizations.

7. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone

number, address etc.

8. Please do not address the response to a particular individual

since the message is going to the entire group.

9. Due to the large readership, all responses may not be posted.

10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if content

is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the group.

11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth,

westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use to Sanskrit

words only, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit bracketed

wherever possible.

MODERATOR

Ram Ram

April 29, 2008

Dear sadhaks,

you are right in your thinking.

Our scripts say -Death comes by accidents, by calamities- by other

living beings such as snake bite, by tiger killing human and other

animals. Death comes by diseases based on one`s karma, so on.

Sastras are considered as pramanams. Sastra says human killing

another human is known as Brahma Hathi (Brahma Dhosam) certainly a

sin.

But same scripts say- Killing some bad one to save a village is NO

sin. Destroying a village and people is No sin to save a big town.

Destroying a town to save 10 towns is NO sin. Destroying 10 towns to

save a big city (100 towns) is NO sin.

Killing some one causes sin (Brama Hathi). But that act done for the

good of society at large is called Dharma. That act should never be

even 0.001% for selfish gains. Anything done for selfish gain become

Paapa (sin). Anything done for selfless gain becomes Punnya.

Kauravas were so wicked, notorious, corrupted, they did anything and

everything for their pleasures, not being mindful of others

sufferings. They were given may opportunities to rectify themselves.

At end they remained the evil and had to be killed for maintaining

peace and dharma.

When Pandavas were children, Duryodan (He) mixed poison in sweets

(Laddu) and gave to Bheema. Bheema Was saved. Later He wanted to kill

Pandavas, made a wax house for them to stay in and soon after set

fire to it. Pandavas escaped through a tunnel. Again he planned and

made Pandavas to gamble, took away their property, disrobed Droupati,

sent them to exile. While they were in forest, Duryodana visited

adject forest to have Vana Bojana. Indra sent Gandarvas to arrest

Duryodana, Karna and others. Gandarvas tied them up and was dragging.

The news went to Dharmaraja. Bheema felt happy, but Dharmaraja said

to Arjuna to wage war with Gandarvas and release Duryodana's people.

Later when Pandavas were in Agnathavas, Duryodhan waged war illegally

and lost the battle. Bagavan Krishna visited as messenger to

pandavas, asked to compensate ONLY 5 villages to Pandavas, Duryodana

refused saying that He will not give place as small as a neddle

point. He again tried to rope up Bagavan and kill Sri Krishna, who

took Viswaroop and showed HIS might. Duryodana said to others that

Viswaroop was magic/illusion.

Duryodana uppa Kathas (small incidents) show He was wicked,

notorious, cunning, wreckless, dishonourable to parents and elders,

womaniser, cheater etc. Therfore with heavy bad deeds to His account

He had was given very long rope and then killed. One stage Bagavan

and Vithura asks Duryodhana, " Is it correct to do all these sins " .

Duryodan replied, " I cannot help it though I know I am doing worst

sins " .

Duryodana father Dukshasan was a bad man in earlier birth blinding

crane birds. So he was born blind and senseless.

Such bad people Bagavan said that they are to be killed by Arjuna

(king) which is Arjuna's Dharma to safeguard interests of society at

large and also to establish Dharma on earth. Leaving and running away

is not king` s Karma Marg.

To Vudhava Bagavan said go to Badrinath and do Tapas, because Vudhava

was fit for that as his gnana Marg

Namaste

B.Sathyanarayan

-

, " sadhak_insight "

<sadhak_insight wrote:

>

> Dear Learned Sadhaks

>

> Ram Ram

>

> My 2nd question on Gitaji

>

> All living persons have Atma (Gitaji)

>

> Atma is a part of GOD as I understand.

>

> Therefore all living being are having a common factor called God.

>

> Can we communicate through this common factor (Telepathy, mind

> reading, knowing that a person is good or bad and so on)

>

> Each person has God Consciousness(Narayana) in him/her

>

> Serving other person is serving God (Narayana).

>

> Why kill any living being?

>

> Why Pandvas should kill Kauravas?

>

> Please enlighten

> me

>

> Jai Sri Krishana

>

> Ramesh Kumar Suri

>

> ----------------------------GITA

> TALK GROUP GUIDELINES:

> 1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify their doubts

> related to Gitaji shalokas. Therefore, responses which further

> clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be posted.

> 2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to

> substantiate your response.

> 3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the

> extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas

> 4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting

> sadhaka's time.

> 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only.

> 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other

> organizations.

> 7. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone

> number, address etc.

> 8. Please do not address the response to a particular individual

> since the message is going to the entire group.

> 9. Due to the large readership, all responses may not be posted.

> 10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if content

> is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the group.

> 11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth,

> westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use to Sanskrit

> words only, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit bracketed

> wherever possible.

>

> MODERATOR

> Ram Ram

>

April 30, 2008

Can we communicate through this common factor (Telepathy, mind

reading, knowing that a person is good or bad and so on)?

Is it not true that we ARE communicating with each other and with

the nature to maintain this body and mind perpetually through

this " common factor " ?! Rather I would not call it a factor.

Everything is a factor of THAT. He has showered with so powerful

tools to enhance our communications already. It is we who have

failed to utilize these to understand ourselves better. It is we who

have abused what are gifted to us. When we are incapable of

utilizing what we have, what is the use of having more faculties

such as telepathy? When we have proved our wickedness throughout

history how we can abuse wonderful things – be it Vedanta or nuclear

power – is it not more disastrous to ask for more powerful faculties

for ourselves?

My suggestion is … let us understand what we already have … let us

apply what we already have for good use … let us thank God for what

we already have been rewarded with … let us thank God for the

rewards to the undeserving fellows that we are rather than

displaying lust and greed for more … that is the best thing that we

could possibly ever do.

Why kill any living being? Why Pandvas should kill Kauravas?

If Arjuna knew that he would not be in the war. Pandavas would not

be in the war. Remember how hard they tried for a peaceful

settlement (Study Udyoga Parva). Observe how hard Krishna, Vidura

and Yudhishthira tried their best for peace. When Yudhishthira

completed Rajasuya Yaga, Vyasa told him that he would be the head of

a bloody war. The peace lover Dharmaraja refused to be a part of

that. He waged everything, his brothers, wife and himself to appeace

Duryodhana to evade the war. When the other party is unwilling to

settle for peace you have little to control the fate. One-sided

peace is lopsided inviting calamity over oneself. India has paid

enough for its lopsided emphasis on Ahimsa (non-violence) when

Ahimsa is never understood by any – neither the preachers nor the

followers. India is subjugated to millenniums of invasion thanks to

the confusion in the name of Ahimsa (non-violence).

Bhagavan Vyasa cannot make that mistake. The Bhagavad Gita is the

song war that we HAVE TO wage whenever we succumb to invasion in

spirit, in person and in society. When your freedom is invaded, it

is your primary duty to destroy the invaders with all your might and

strength. You have to show a much higher level of courage to face

the invaders when the confusion looms over you that the invaders are

your kith and kin. You have to show much superior wisdom and courage

when the invaders happen to be your own notions, emotions, and

relations harbored in your own body and mind invading the very

righteousness that brings about harmony in society. The war has to

be waged irrespectively whenever righteousness is under invasion –

at social level, at personal level as well as at spiritual level.

Establishment of Righteousness and freedom and upliftment of all is

what matters, nothing else.

The preachers spoil the strength of a society, a person and a spirit

consumed by the general confusion around and in themselves. Bhagavan

Vyasa says so beautifully,

Na buddhibhedam janayet agnyanam karmasanginam |

Joshayet sarva karmani vidvan yuktah samacharan ||

Never ever try to preach a soldier who is in the war field about

Ahimsa. Nothing good could happen. He will be consumed by his

adversaries instantly leaving no room for him to understand what is

happening. Think well before the war of the calamities at its end.

The calamities of a war and the serenity of peace are the best known

to the humans … yet they can never be on the right side! Why?!

Because the peace we perceive is the result of conflicts. We cannot

appreciate the ever-existing peace in our perception. Our perception

demands for sadness before experiencing happiness, turmoil before

peace, fear before desire … it is corrupt with its own dualistic

polarities. As a result, it can never retain any good thing in its

own interpretation … the happiness turns to sadness, peace to

turmoil, desire to fear …

Yes, if at all it is worth living … we should wage the war … we

should wage the war against our perceptional hypocrisies that are

the root cause for all the unrest in ourselves and hence in our

societies … we should wage the war to wipe out the corruption rooted

in ourselves … We should appreciate Bhagavad Gita to empower

ourselves for this mission …

Respects.

Naga Narayana.

-------------------------------

Kaurav and Pandava are two states of mind in conflict, and

Mahabharata is the art and science of decision making. Laws and

order that is blind or insensitive, is symbolized as Kaurav. In

Sanskrit, Dhrat means, resting at, and Rashtra means governance or

management (vyavastha). Kaurav in Sanskrit means, noisy or chaotic

state of mind that is a result of bad governance or insensitive laws

and order (dhrat rashtra). Pandav on the other hand is purity of

self, or swabhav or dharma represented by Yudhishthir.

Every human mind is in midst of a war between vyavastha (kaurav) and

swabhav (pandav) in choice of every action in our lives. When human

are in control of irresponsible and self centred political class

(idiot parliamentarians) that gives least attention on laws and

order, then, fighting forces like police and army called Duroyodhan

( bad executives) play havoc by corruption and terrorize people,

together with Dush shaashan or (bad judiciary and authorities in

governance) which is legitimizing the action of Duryodhan. Karana in

Sanskrit is called beam giving it structure of administration which

is a sort of discipline in the governance but suffocated by loyalty

to Duryodhan and Dus Shaashan. Similarly, other characters represent

vyavastha (management or dhrat rashtra).

Pandava has no structure of governance and control but respect for

democracy and right of living as per ones' swabhav that gives self

realization, livelihood and co-existence. It is not chaotic but

heavy, determined or unmovable road of rock of dharma called

Yudhisthir (or that is sthir or stays in war). Bhima is similarly

symbol of commitment and strength, Arjun for enlightenment, Nakul

and sah deva representing communication and peace.

For guidance on the Bhagwat Gita, read Yathharth Gita by Swami

Adgadananda. The whole world and lives in it are in conflict by

inner and outer worlds and this is Mahabharata. Death and life is

not really important for students of Mahabharata because life

without meaning, is anyway useless. Bhagwat Gita in beginning

explains the transitory nature of death so that it is not considered

the aim of life. In modern time, death is big business and 99.99 %

die of hospitals (disease, accidents by environmental causes),

courts and political class (conviction by justice and wars) and

suicides (inability to cope up with reality). Very less people die

in state of bliss and stay victorious in understanding this maze of

universe. Bhagwat Gita is a guide of life, and getting rid of this

maze by A + mrit = Amrit (absence of death).

Regards

Krishna Gopal

-------------------------------

It is clear in Bhagavad Gita that Arjuna did not kill; they were all

already killed by the Lord (Bg 11).

He killed just for namesake- Â nimitta maatram bhava savyasaachin

(Bg 11).

Newton did not cause/create gravity. It was already there. Â E=mc

times c relation was already there. Einstein is not responsible for

relativity!

Koti Sreekrishna

Raam Raam --

Well, this question has been answered by Bhagvad Geeta itself !!!

You might want to read it ... for understanding !!

Jai ShriKrishna !!

Rajesh Patil

, " sadhak_insight "

<sadhak_insight wrote:

>

> Dear sadhaks,

>

> you are right in your thinking.

> Our scripts say -Death comes by accidents, by calamities- by other

> living beings such as snake bite, by tiger killing human and other

> animals. Death comes by diseases based on one`s karma, so on.

> Sastras are considered as pramanams. Sastra says human killing

> another human is known as Brahma Hathi (Brahma Dhosam) certainly a

> sin.

>

> But same scripts say- Killing some bad one to save a village is NO

> sin. Destroying a village and people is No sin to save a big town.

> Destroying a town to save 10 towns is NO sin. Destroying 10 towns

to

> save a big city (100 towns) is NO sin.

>

> Killing some one causes sin (Brama Hathi). But that act done for

the

> good of society at large is called Dharma. That act should never

be

> even 0.001% for selfish gains. Anything done for selfish gain

become

> Paapa (sin). Anything done for selfless gain becomes Punnya.

> Kauravas were so wicked, notorious, corrupted, they did anything

and

> everything for their pleasures, not being mindful of others

> sufferings. They were given may opportunities to rectify

themselves.

> At end they remained the evil and had to be killed for maintaining

> peace and dharma.

>

> When Pandavas were children, Duryodan (He) mixed poison in sweets

> (Laddu) and gave to Bheema. Bheema Was saved. Later He wanted to

kill

> Pandavas, made a wax house for them to stay in and soon after set

> fire to it. Pandavas escaped through a tunnel. Again he planned

and

> made Pandavas to gamble, took away their property, disrobed

Droupati,

> sent them to exile. While they were in forest, Duryodana visited

> adject forest to have Vana Bojana. Indra sent Gandarvas to arrest

> Duryodana, Karna and others. Gandarvas tied them up and was

dragging.

> The news went to Dharmaraja. Bheema felt happy, but Dharmaraja

said

> to Arjuna to wage war with Gandarvas and release Duryodana's

people.

> Later when Pandavas were in Agnathavas, Duryodhan waged war

illegally

> and lost the battle. Bagavan Krishna visited as messenger to

> pandavas, asked to compensate ONLY 5 villages to Pandavas,

Duryodana

> refused saying that He will not give place as small as a neddle

> point. He again tried to rope up Bagavan and kill Sri Krishna, who

> took Viswaroop and showed HIS might. Duryodana said to others that

> Viswaroop was magic/illusion.

>

> Duryodana uppa Kathas (small incidents) show He was wicked,

> notorious, cunning, wreckless, dishonourable to parents and

elders,

> womaniser, cheater etc. Therfore with heavy bad deeds to His

account

> He had was given very long rope and then killed. One stage Bagavan

> and Vithura asks Duryodhana, " Is it correct to do all these sins " .

> Duryodan replied, " I cannot help it though I know I am doing worst

> sins " .

>

> Duryodana father Dukshasan was a bad man in earlier birth blinding

> crane birds. So he was born blind and senseless.

> Such bad people Bagavan said that they are to be killed by Arjuna

> (king) which is Arjuna's Dharma to safeguard interests of society

at

> large and also to establish Dharma on earth. Leaving and running

away

> is not king` s Karma Marg.

> To Vudhava Bagavan said go to Badrinath and do Tapas, because

Vudhava

> was fit for that as his gnana Marg

> Namaste

> B.Sathyanarayan

> -

>

> , " sadhak_insight "

> <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> >

> > Dear Learned Sadhaks

> >

> > Ram Ram

> >

> > My 2nd question on Gitaji

> >

> > All living persons have Atma (Gitaji)

> >

> > Atma is a part of GOD as I understand.

> >

> > Therefore all living being are having a common factor called God.

> >

> > Can we communicate through this common factor (Telepathy, mind

> > reading, knowing that a person is good or bad and so on)

> >

> > Each person has God Consciousness(Narayana) in him/her

> >

> > Serving other person is serving God (Narayana).

> >

> > Why kill any living being?

> >

> > Why Pandvas should kill Kauravas?

> >

> > Please enlighten

> > me

> >

> > Jai Sri Krishana

> >

> > Ramesh Kumar Suri

> >

> > ----------------------------GITA

> > TALK GROUP GUIDELINES:

> > 1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify their doubts

> > related to Gitaji shalokas. Therefore, responses which further

> > clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be posted.

> > 2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to

> > substantiate your response.

> > 3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the

> > extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas

> > 4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting

> > sadhaka's time.

> > 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only.

> > 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other

> > organizations.

> > 7. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone

> > number, address etc.

> > 8. Please do not address the response to a particular individual

> > since the message is going to the entire group.

> > 9. Due to the large readership, all responses may not be posted.

> > 10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if

content

> > is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the group.

> > 11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth,

> > westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use to

Sanskrit

> > words only, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit

bracketed

> > wherever possible.

> >

> > MODERATOR

> > Ram Ram

> >

>

May 2, 2008

One small correction. Duryodhan's father was Dhritharashtra.

G.Vaidyanathan

--

, " sadhak_insight "

<sadhak_insight wrote:

>

> Dear sadhaks,

>

> you are right in your thinking.

> Our scripts say -Death comes by accidents, by calamities- by other

> living beings such as snake bite, by tiger killing human and other

> animals. Death comes by diseases based on one`s karma, so on.

> Sastras are considered as pramanams. Sastra says human killing

> another human is known as Brahma Hathi (Brahma Dhosam) certainly a

> sin.

>

> But same scripts say- Killing some bad one to save a village is NO

> sin. Destroying a village and people is No sin to save a big town.

> Destroying a town to save 10 towns is NO sin. Destroying 10 towns

to

> save a big city (100 towns) is NO sin.

>

> Killing some one causes sin (Brama Hathi). But that act done for

the

> good of society at large is called Dharma. That act should never

be

> even 0.001% for selfish gains. Anything done for selfish gain

become

> Paapa (sin). Anything done for selfless gain becomes Punnya.

> Kauravas were so wicked, notorious, corrupted, they did anything

and

> everything for their pleasures, not being mindful of others

> sufferings. They were given may opportunities to rectify

themselves.

> At end they remained the evil and had to be killed for maintaining

> peace and dharma.

>

> When Pandavas were children, Duryodan (He) mixed poison in sweets

> (Laddu) and gave to Bheema. Bheema Was saved. Later He wanted to

kill

> Pandavas, made a wax house for them to stay in and soon after set

> fire to it. Pandavas escaped through a tunnel. Again he planned

and

> made Pandavas to gamble, took away their property, disrobed

Droupati,

> sent them to exile. While they were in forest, Duryodana visited

> adject forest to have Vana Bojana. Indra sent Gandarvas to arrest

> Duryodana, Karna and others. Gandarvas tied them up and was

dragging.

> The news went to Dharmaraja. Bheema felt happy, but Dharmaraja

said

> to Arjuna to wage war with Gandarvas and release Duryodana's

people.

> Later when Pandavas were in Agnathavas, Duryodhan waged war

illegally

> and lost the battle. Bagavan Krishna visited as messenger to

> pandavas, asked to compensate ONLY 5 villages to Pandavas,

Duryodana

> refused saying that He will not give place as small as a neddle

> point. He again tried to rope up Bagavan and kill Sri Krishna, who

> took Viswaroop and showed HIS might. Duryodana said to others that

> Viswaroop was magic/illusion.

>

> Duryodana uppa Kathas (small incidents) show He was wicked,

> notorious, cunning, wreckless, dishonourable to parents and

elders,

> womaniser, cheater etc. Therfore with heavy bad deeds to His

account

> He had was given very long rope and then killed. One stage Bagavan

> and Vithura asks Duryodhana, " Is it correct to do all these sins " .

> Duryodan replied, " I cannot help it though I know I am doing worst

> sins " .

>

> Duryodana father Dukshasan was a bad man in earlier birth blinding

> crane birds. So he was born blind and senseless.

> Such bad people Bagavan said that they are to be killed by Arjuna

> (king) which is Arjuna's Dharma to safeguard interests of society

at

> large and also to establish Dharma on earth. Leaving and running

away

> is not king` s Karma Marg.

> To Vudhava Bagavan said go to Badrinath and do Tapas, because

Vudhava

> was fit for that as his gnana Marg

> Namaste

> B.Sathyanarayan

> -

>

> , " sadhak_insight "

> <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> >

> > Dear Learned Sadhaks

> >

> > Ram Ram

> >

> > My 2nd question on Gitaji

> >

> > All living persons have Atma (Gitaji)

> >

> > Atma is a part of GOD as I understand.

> >

> > Therefore all living being are having a common factor called God.

> >

> > Can we communicate through this common factor (Telepathy, mind

> > reading, knowing that a person is good or bad and so on)

> >

> > Each person has God Consciousness(Narayana) in him/her

> >

> > Serving other person is serving God (Narayana).

> >

> > Why kill any living being?

> >

> > Why Pandvas should kill Kauravas?

> >

> > Please enlighten

> > me

> >

> > Jai Sri Krishana

> >

> > Ramesh Kumar Suri

> >

> > ----------------------------GITA

> > TALK GROUP GUIDELINES:

> > 1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify their doubts

> > related to Gitaji shalokas. Therefore, responses which further

> > clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be posted.

> > 2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to

> > substantiate your response.

> > 3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the

> > extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas

> > 4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting

> > sadhaka's time.

> > 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only.

> > 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other

> > organizations.

> > 7. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone

> > number, address etc.

> > 8. Please do not address the response to a particular individual

> > since the message is going to the entire group.

> > 9. Due to the large readership, all responses may not be posted.

> > 10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if

content

> > is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the group.

> > 11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth,

> > westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use to

Sanskrit

> > words only, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit

bracketed

> > wherever possible.

> >

> > MODERATOR

> > Ram Ram

> >

>

May 3, 2008

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

As Mr. Naga Narayanaji explained so beautifully that this war had to

be waged for the righteousness sake after exhausting all the

peaceful means to resolve the issues.

Also, as Nagaji pointed out that the weakness has been there all

along with the Hindus, they have not stood up to the occasion when

they should have, while facing foreign invasions over the years.

Perhaps they thought they would be doing Violence (Himsa) if they

fought back. Swami Vivekananda pounded this message of strength

again and again to wake up the Indian masses against the prevailing

lethargy and weakness.

While in delusion, Arjuna too says in Gitaji (1-36):

" O Janaradana, what joy we can be derive by slaying the sons of

Dhrtarastra, sin alone will accrue to us by killing these felons " .

Lord Krishna scolds Arjuna in Gitaji (2-33):

" Now, if you will not wage such a righteous war, then, abandoning

your duty and losing your reputation, you will incur sin " .

An interesting question - is it really fair even to raise a doubt

about Pandvas killing Kaurvas in the Mahabharat war?

Few observations to ponder over:

This was a Dharma Yudha fought in Kurukshetra which has been called

as a Dharma Kshetra, in the presence of Lord Himself, who is the

protector and upholder of the Dharma. Would Lord Krishna not stop

this war if He felt the war was not being faught for the right

reasons.

How would the mankind receive the marvelous message of Gitaji if it

there were not the unique setting of this war.

Gitaji says it is not the actions which matter but motivation behind

them which is important. (Ref: Gitaji (18-17)

" He whose mind is free from self sense (egoism), and whose

understanding is free from attachment, even though slaying all

these people, slays not, nor he is bound " .

It is not the type of action which is critical but it is the

attitude with which actions are performed. (Ref: Gitaji 2-38)

" Treating alike pleasure and pain, gain and loss, victory and

defeat, get ready to fight, then, fighting thus you will not incur

sin " .

On Adhayatamic scale, the Mahabharat war represents the warfare

which is going on everyday within all sadhakas and non-sadhkas, the

good tendencies (small in number = 5) are fighting with the bad

tendencies (larger in number =100). This war has to be fought and

won if one wishes to pursue the spiritual path.

Ram Ram

Humble pranam

Madan Kaura

--

B.Sathyanarayan please clarify your message

Can one kill his / her mother even if she has become threat to his /

her life OR life of other family members? (say she has gone mad)

Jai Shri Krushna

" hitsoftindia "

--

, " sadhak_insight "

<sadhak_insight wrote:

>

> One small correction. Duryodhan's father was Dhritharashtra.

> G.Vaidyanathan

> -

-

> , " sadhak_insight "

> <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> >

> > Dear sadhaks,

> >

> > you are right in your thinking.

> > Our scripts say -Death comes by accidents, by calamities- by

other

> > living beings such as snake bite, by tiger killing human and

other

> > animals. Death comes by diseases based on one`s karma, so on.

> > Sastras are considered as pramanams. Sastra says human killing

> > another human is known as Brahma Hathi (Brahma Dhosam) certainly

a

> > sin.

> >

> > But same scripts say- Killing some bad one to save a village is

NO

> > sin. Destroying a village and people is No sin to save a big

town.

> > Destroying a town to save 10 towns is NO sin. Destroying 10

towns

> to

> > save a big city (100 towns) is NO sin.

> >

> > Killing some one causes sin (Brama Hathi). But that act done for

> the

> > good of society at large is called Dharma. That act should never

> be

> > even 0.001% for selfish gains. Anything done for selfish gain

> become

> > Paapa (sin). Anything done for selfless gain becomes Punnya.

> > Kauravas were so wicked, notorious, corrupted, they did anything

> and

> > everything for their pleasures, not being mindful of others

> > sufferings. They were given may opportunities to rectify

> themselves.

> > At end they remained the evil and had to be killed for

maintaining

> > peace and dharma.

> >

> > When Pandavas were children, Duryodan (He) mixed poison in

sweets

> > (Laddu) and gave to Bheema. Bheema Was saved. Later He wanted to

> kill

> > Pandavas, made a wax house for them to stay in and soon after

set

> > fire to it. Pandavas escaped through a tunnel. Again he planned

> and

> > made Pandavas to gamble, took away their property, disrobed

> Droupati,

> > sent them to exile. While they were in forest, Duryodana visited

> > adject forest to have Vana Bojana. Indra sent Gandarvas to

arrest

> > Duryodana, Karna and others. Gandarvas tied them up and was

> dragging.

> > The news went to Dharmaraja. Bheema felt happy, but Dharmaraja

> said

> > to Arjuna to wage war with Gandarvas and release Duryodana's

> people.

> > Later when Pandavas were in Agnathavas, Duryodhan waged war

> illegally

> > and lost the battle. Bagavan Krishna visited as messenger to

> > pandavas, asked to compensate ONLY 5 villages to Pandavas,

> Duryodana

> > refused saying that He will not give place as small as a neddle

> > point. He again tried to rope up Bagavan and kill Sri Krishna,

who

> > took Viswaroop and showed HIS might. Duryodana said to others

that

> > Viswaroop was magic/illusion.

> >

> > Duryodana uppa Kathas (small incidents) show He was wicked,

> > notorious, cunning, wreckless, dishonourable to parents and

> elders,

> > womaniser, cheater etc. Therfore with heavy bad deeds to His

> account

> > He had was given very long rope and then killed. One stage

Bagavan

> > and Vithura asks Duryodhana, " Is it correct to do all these

sins " .

> > Duryodan replied, " I cannot help it though I know I am doing

worst

> > sins " .

> >

> > Duryodana father Dukshasan was a bad man in earlier birth

blinding

> > crane birds. So he was born blind and senseless.

> > Such bad people Bagavan said that they are to be killed by

Arjuna

> > (king) which is Arjuna's Dharma to safeguard interests of

society

> at

> > large and also to establish Dharma on earth. Leaving and running

> away

> > is not king` s Karma Marg.

> > To Vudhava Bagavan said go to Badrinath and do Tapas, because

> Vudhava

> > was fit for that as his gnana Marg

> > Namaste

> > B.Sathyanarayan

> > --------------------------------

--

> >

> > , " sadhak_insight "

> > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Dear Learned Sadhaks

> > >

> > > Ram Ram

> > >

> > > My 2nd question on Gitaji

> > >

> > > All living persons have Atma (Gitaji)

> > >

> > > Atma is a part of GOD as I understand.

> > >

> > > Therefore all living being are having a common factor called

God.

> > >

> > > Can we communicate through this common factor (Telepathy, mind

> > > reading, knowing that a person is good or bad and so on)

> > >

> > > Each person has God Consciousness(Narayana) in him/her

> > >

> > > Serving other person is serving God (Narayana).

> > >

> > > Why kill any living being?

> > >

> > > Why Pandvas should kill Kauravas?

> > >

> > > Please enlighten

> > > me

> > >

> > > Jai Sri Krishana

> > >

> > > Ramesh Kumar Suri

> > >

> > > ----------------------------

GITA

> > > TALK GROUP GUIDELINES:

> > > 1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify their

doubts

> > > related to Gitaji shalokas. Therefore, responses which further

> > > clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be posted.

> > > 2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures

to

> > > substantiate your response.

> > > 3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to

the

> > > extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas

> > > 4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible,

respecting

> > > sadhaka's time.

> > > 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only.

> > > 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other

> > > organizations.

> > > 7. Kindly do not include your personal information such as

phone

> > > number, address etc.

> > > 8. Please do not address the response to a particular

individual

> > > since the message is going to the entire group.

> > > 9. Due to the large readership, all responses may not be

posted.

> > > 10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if

> content

> > > is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the group.

> > > 11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices,

youth,

> > > westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use to

> Sanskrit

> > > words only, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit

> bracketed

> > > wherever possible.

> > >

> > > MODERATOR

> > > Ram Ram

> > >

> >

>

May 5, 2008

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

Insightful answers are given already on this subject by Sadhakas.

I want to emphasize some points I see important.

Many may still think and believe Atma is residing in individual mind-

body, existing separately in each. This is too simplistic view if

not properly investigated.

Atman is ONE unique experience of Being which is also at the same

time knowingness or Consciousness we all share. Just as space cannot

be divided or corrupted by objects of the world, Consciousness,

subtlest than space, cannot be divided, nor touched, nor

differentiated as separate objects. Objects are perceived by Atman

and are also made up of the same vastue as Atman or consciousness we

experience as thoughts or feelings creating apparant separations

among conceived objects. Upon inquiry one may discover Atman to be

impersonal, infinite, ONE Wholeness, homogeneous in nature. This is

Absolute reality or Brahman. Atman is Brahman, proclaimed

Upanishadic sages!

Brahman appears diverse as nature with all sentient and insentient

beings trigunatmik in nature. This is relative truth of everything

that a mind can know. It is like a movie manifesting diversity from

ONE light of projector passing through films, or a dream manifesting

many objects in one mind.

Once known for what it is, our true nature, this consciousness of

being is realized as eternal, immortal. Now the world of relativity

becomes leela or drama, so to speak. In such a play we enjoy playing

our roles including dying as assigned in the script, which is

written, directed, played and watched by God through us! Roles are

mortals but " we " who play these roles are One immortal Conscious

Being.

To play our roles in the drama in the best possible way is the only

thing we can do once we are convinced it is so! This is why Pandavas

killed Kauravas(bodies), and this is also why it is said Yada yadahi

dharmasya.........

In the play of Mahabharata Arjuna was enlightened by Lord, the

supeme Consciousness!Kauravas played the roles of evil beings and

died in war and thus Dharma was restablished all per the script.

Namaskar......Pratap

(Pratap Bhatt)

-

, " sadhak_insight "

<sadhak_insight wrote:

>

> Shree Hari

>

> Ram Ram

>

> As Mr. Naga Narayanaji explained so beautifully that this war had

to

> be waged for the righteousness sake after exhausting all the

> peaceful means to resolve the issues.

>

> Also, as Nagaji pointed out that the weakness has been there all

> along with the Hindus, they have not stood up to the occasion when

> they should have, while facing foreign invasions over the years.

> Perhaps they thought they would be doing Violence (Himsa) if they

> fought back. Swami Vivekananda pounded this message of strength

> again and again to wake up the Indian masses against the

prevailing

> lethargy and weakness.

>

> While in delusion, Arjuna too says in Gitaji (1-36):

> " O Janaradana, what joy we can be derive by slaying the sons of

> Dhrtarastra, sin alone will accrue to us by killing these

felons " .

>

> Lord Krishna scolds Arjuna in Gitaji (2-33):

> " Now, if you will not wage such a righteous war, then, abandoning

> your duty and losing your reputation, you will incur sin " .

>

> An interesting question - is it really fair even to raise a doubt

> about Pandvas killing Kaurvas in the Mahabharat war?

>

> Few observations to ponder over:

>

> This was a Dharma Yudha fought in Kurukshetra which has been

called

> as a Dharma Kshetra, in the presence of Lord Himself, who is the

> protector and upholder of the Dharma. Would Lord Krishna not stop

> this war if He felt the war was not being faught for the right

> reasons.

>

> How would the mankind receive the marvelous message of Gitaji if

it

> there were not the unique setting of this war.

>

> Gitaji says it is not the actions which matter but motivation

behind

> them which is important. (Ref: Gitaji (18-17)

> " He whose mind is free from self sense (egoism), and whose

> understanding is free from attachment, even though slaying all

> these people, slays not, nor he is bound " .

>

> It is not the type of action which is critical but it is the

> attitude with which actions are performed. (Ref: Gitaji 2-38)

> " Treating alike pleasure and pain, gain and loss, victory and

> defeat, get ready to fight, then, fighting thus you will not incur

> sin " .

>

> On Adhayatamic scale, the Mahabharat war represents the warfare

> which is going on everyday within all sadhakas and non-sadhkas,

the

> good tendencies (small in number = 5) are fighting with the bad

> tendencies (larger in number =100). This war has to be fought and

> won if one wishes to pursue the spiritual path.

> Ram Ram

>

> Humble pranam

> Madan Kaura

>

> -

-

> B.Sathyanarayan please clarify your message

> Can one kill his / her mother even if she has become threat to

his /

> her life OR life of other family members? (say she has gone mad)

>

> Jai Shri Krushna

>

> " hitsoftindia "

> -

-

> , " sadhak_insight "

> <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> >

> > One small correction. Duryodhan's father was Dhritharashtra.

> > G.Vaidyanathan

> > --------------------------------

--

> -

> > , " sadhak_insight "

> > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Dear sadhaks,

> > >

> > > you are right in your thinking.

> > > Our scripts say -Death comes by accidents, by calamities- by

> other

> > > living beings such as snake bite, by tiger killing human and

> other

> > > animals. Death comes by diseases based on one`s karma, so on.

> > > Sastras are considered as pramanams. Sastra says human killing

> > > another human is known as Brahma Hathi (Brahma Dhosam)

certainly

> a

> > > sin.

> > >

> > > But same scripts say- Killing some bad one to save a village

is

> NO

> > > sin. Destroying a village and people is No sin to save a big

> town.

> > > Destroying a town to save 10 towns is NO sin. Destroying 10

> towns

> > to

> > > save a big city (100 towns) is NO sin.

> > >

> > > Killing some one causes sin (Brama Hathi). But that act done

for

> > the

> > > good of society at large is called Dharma. That act should

never

> > be

> > > even 0.001% for selfish gains. Anything done for selfish gain

> > become

> > > Paapa (sin). Anything done for selfless gain becomes Punnya.

> > > Kauravas were so wicked, notorious, corrupted, they did

anything

> > and

> > > everything for their pleasures, not being mindful of others

> > > sufferings. They were given may opportunities to rectify

> > themselves.

> > > At end they remained the evil and had to be killed for

> maintaining

> > > peace and dharma.

> > >

> > > When Pandavas were children, Duryodan (He) mixed poison in

> sweets

> > > (Laddu) and gave to Bheema. Bheema Was saved. Later He wanted

to

> > kill

> > > Pandavas, made a wax house for them to stay in and soon after

> set

> > > fire to it. Pandavas escaped through a tunnel. Again he

planned

> > and

> > > made Pandavas to gamble, took away their property, disrobed

> > Droupati,

> > > sent them to exile. While they were in forest, Duryodana

visited

> > > adject forest to have Vana Bojana. Indra sent Gandarvas to

> arrest

> > > Duryodana, Karna and others. Gandarvas tied them up and was

> > dragging.

> > > The news went to Dharmaraja. Bheema felt happy, but Dharmaraja

> > said

> > > to Arjuna to wage war with Gandarvas and release Duryodana's

> > people.

> > > Later when Pandavas were in Agnathavas, Duryodhan waged war

> > illegally

> > > and lost the battle. Bagavan Krishna visited as messenger to

> > > pandavas, asked to compensate ONLY 5 villages to Pandavas,

> > Duryodana

> > > refused saying that He will not give place as small as a

neddle

> > > point. He again tried to rope up Bagavan and kill Sri Krishna,

> who

> > > took Viswaroop and showed HIS might. Duryodana said to others

> that

> > > Viswaroop was magic/illusion.

> > >

> > > Duryodana uppa Kathas (small incidents) show He was wicked,

> > > notorious, cunning, wreckless, dishonourable to parents and

> > elders,

> > > womaniser, cheater etc. Therfore with heavy bad deeds to His

> > account

> > > He had was given very long rope and then killed. One stage

> Bagavan

> > > and Vithura asks Duryodhana, " Is it correct to do all these

> sins " .

> > > Duryodan replied, " I cannot help it though I know I am doing

> worst

> > > sins " .

> > >

> > > Duryodana father Dukshasan was a bad man in earlier birth

> blinding

> > > crane birds. So he was born blind and senseless.

> > > Such bad people Bagavan said that they are to be killed by

> Arjuna

> > > (king) which is Arjuna's Dharma to safeguard interests of

> society

> > at

> > > large and also to establish Dharma on earth. Leaving and

running

> > away

> > > is not king` s Karma Marg.

> > > To Vudhava Bagavan said go to Badrinath and do Tapas, because

> > Vudhava

> > > was fit for that as his gnana Marg

> > > Namaste

> > > B.Sathyanarayan

> > > ------------------------------

--

> --

> > >

> > > , " sadhak_insight "

> > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Dear Learned Sadhaks

> > > >

> > > > Ram Ram

> > > >

> > > > My 2nd question on Gitaji

> > > >

> > > > All living persons have Atma (Gitaji)

> > > >

> > > > Atma is a part of GOD as I understand.

> > > >

> > > > Therefore all living being are having a common factor called

> God.

> > > >

> > > > Can we communicate through this common factor (Telepathy,

mind

> > > > reading, knowing that a person is good or bad and so on)

> > > >

> > > > Each person has God Consciousness(Narayana) in him/her

> > > >

> > > > Serving other person is serving God (Narayana).

> > > >

> > > > Why kill any living being?

> > > >

> > > > Why Pandvas should kill Kauravas?

> > > >

> > > > Please enlighten

> > > > me

> > > >

> > > > Jai Sri Krishana

> > > >

> > > > Ramesh Kumar Suri

> > > >

> > > > ----------------------------

> GITA

> > > > TALK GROUP GUIDELINES:

> > > > 1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify their

> doubts

> > > > related to Gitaji shalokas. Therefore, responses which

further

> > > > clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be posted.

> > > > 2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other

scriptures

> to

> > > > substantiate your response.

> > > > 3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to

> the

> > > > extent that they further help in understanding the Gita

shlokas

> > > > 4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible,

> respecting

> > > > sadhaka's time.

> > > > 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only.

> > > > 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other

> > > > organizations.

> > > > 7. Kindly do not include your personal information such as

> phone

> > > > number, address etc.

> > > > 8. Please do not address the response to a particular

> individual

> > > > since the message is going to the entire group.

> > > > 9. Due to the large readership, all responses may not be

> posted.

> > > > 10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if

> > content

> > > > is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the group.

> > > > 11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices,

> youth,

> > > > westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use to

> > Sanskrit

> > > > words only, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit

> > bracketed

> > > > wherever possible.

> > > >

> > > > MODERATOR

> > > > Ram Ram

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

May 7, 2008

Dear Sadaks and " hitsoftindia "

Mother (Maatha), Father (Phitta), Spiritual Guide (Guru) and Deivam.

Maatha is the first step on earth, Pittha 2nd education, Guru 3rd

step to Gynana marg 3rd step and Deivam (God) 4th step final to

Moksha. Ultimate goal of any living form is Liberation. So mother,

father and Guru has been with us in several births. But we continue

this cycle of birth and death without reaching divinity. Parents and

Guru have their limitations. But God is unlimited. To reach the

stage of Dharma you need virtuous actions (Karmas).

Examples: Harischandra was to behead his wife. Viswamitra stopped

and praised the dharmic act. Sandikeswarar (a famous Shiva Devotee)

he regularly used to do abishek to Bagavan Shiva made by himself out

of sand. His father got angry on that act and rushed to kick the

sand mould (Shiva) on which Sandikeswarar was pouring milk. When the

Son hit his father`s leg with Dharba (holy dry grass), the father's

leg was chopped off. Realisation took place.

Yudhistera was asked by Yeksha to take a boon to save one of his four

brothers who was lying dead. Yudhistra asked for the youngest.

Yaksha asked to Yudistra why he has not opted for Arjuna or Bheema

who could be helpful in war. Yudhistra said he is there to do last

rights of his mother, but if Shahadev is not brought to life there

is no one to do last rights of his mother. Besides asking for

Arjuna/Bheema, would be a selfish act.

If mother should go Mad, then it is son` s duty to take her away

from society and live with her. But if mother becomes threat to

son/daughter life, and society at large, then one needs to do what

is beneficial and less harmful to more people at large.

Bagavan Parasuram one of the 10 Avathar had chopped of his mother` s

head just to abide by his father` s order. Later his father very

satisfied asked Parasuram what boon he wanted. Parasuram asked his

father that to return his mother back to life. 1st Matha Vakiyam

Paripalanam, next higher step father Vakiyam, next Guru Vakiyam, and

highest is obeying GOD`S words without asking any question.

Example: During war in Kurushetra, Bagavan says to Yudistara, " to

shout out that Ashvadhama died " . Yudistatra refused to say lie.

Bagavan asks Bheema to kill an elephant called Ashwadhama. Bheema

kills the elephant without any question even in mind. Then sadhaks

you all know what happened.

Much later when Pandavas die, Yudhistara meets Sri Krishna in

heavens. Bheema was in heaven before Yudhisthir.

Yudhistara asks Sri Krishna why Bheema was first? Bagavan says,

Bheema did what I (BHagavan) said without questioning, but you

Yudhistara you only did what you were asked to say, only after

questioning.

Taken from the perspective of " Vasudeva Sarvam " , the one being killed and one

performing the act of killing are the same Sriman Narayana.

Bagavan in Geetha clearly says, " I am in everything but I not that " .

Bagavan is in you but HE is not the body. Body functions as per

Karmas but Bagavan remains witness. Gynaneswar moved walls (achetanam). The

wall had the power of Bagavan but Bagavan is not wall. Prahlad showed Narashima

(God) in a pillar but Bagavan is not that pillar.

Simply understand this that GOD is Omnipresent and let your mind not

go too deep into sastras. Adi Sankara said that going deep in Sastras you may

offset yourself from GOD.

Namaste

B.Sathyanarayan

-------------------------

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

Seek help from God, by placing your mother in God's lap, and praying

to God, " Bhagavan - she is now Your responsibility. I am unable to take care

of the situation on my own. Only You can take care of her. You have been doing

so all along, but I have been thinking that it is me. Please take what belongs

to you back to you. You only take care of her, I cannot do it " In this manner,

surrender her over to God and He will surely take care of her. You will see the

magic as Pujya Swamiji has said on number of occasions. In the mean time

continue to do all the necessary seva as if she belongs to God and you are

serving His people. It is no longer your problem, you are only serving God's

people (not your mother). Be at ease and peace ! You will see the magic.

A Sadhak

-----------------------------

parnaaams...

dear Pratap Bhatt,

please clarify few doubts....

1.If Atman is Universal Principal...after the death of a person..

why we Hindus practice Sharaads and other rituals to make way for the departed

soul.for its easy passage....

2.The Different Narkas as described in the Book Gruer Purana..

is it merely Myth?... as Atman cannot be divided and touched..who goes

through those Dark Worlds mentioned in the Book.

3.you further wrote..our roles including dying as assigned in the script, which

is written, directed, played and watched by God through us! Roles are

mortals but " we " who play these roles are One mortal Conscious Being.

If each and every event is predermmined, already written as our role...then when

a person robs another, what is his fault ? as the script is already written ?

What was God 's purpose of this Creation..if every thing He already wrote?

Thanks..

kuldip suri

------------------------------

, " sadhak_insight "

<sadhak_insight wrote:

>

> Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

>

> Insightful answers are given already on this subject by Sadhakas.

>

> I want to emphasize some points I see important.

>

> Many may still think and believe Atma is residing in individual

mind-

> body, existing separately in each. This is too simplistic view if

> not properly investigated.

>

> Atman is ONE unique experience of Being which is also at the same

> time knowingness or Consciousness we all share. Just as space

cannot

> be divided or corrupted by objects of the world, Consciousness,

> subtlest than space, cannot be divided, nor touched, nor

> differentiated as separate objects. Objects are perceived by Atman

> and are also made up of the same vastue as Atman or consciousness

we

> experience as thoughts or feelings creating apparant separations

> among conceived objects. Upon inquiry one may discover Atman to be

> impersonal, infinite, ONE Wholeness, homogeneous in nature. This

is

> Absolute reality or Brahman. Atman is Brahman, proclaimed

> Upanishadic sages!

>

> Brahman appears diverse as nature with all sentient and insentient

> beings trigunatmik in nature. This is relative truth of everything

> that a mind can know. It is like a movie manifesting diversity

from

> ONE light of projector passing through films, or a dream

manifesting

> many objects in one mind.

>

> Once known for what it is, our true nature, this consciousness of

> being is realized as eternal, immortal. Now the world of

relativity

> becomes leela or drama, so to speak. In such a play we enjoy

playing

> our roles including dying as assigned in the script, which is

> written, directed, played and watched by God through us! Roles

are

> mortals but " we " who play these roles are One immortal Conscious

> Being.

>

> To play our roles in the drama in the best possible way is the

only

> thing we can do once we are convinced it is so! This is why

Pandavas

> killed Kauravas(bodies), and this is also why it is said Yada

yadahi

> dharmasya.........

>

> In the play of Mahabharata Arjuna was enlightened by Lord, the

> supeme Consciousness!Kauravas played the roles of evil beings and

> died in war and thus Dharma was restablished all per the script.

>

> Namaskar......Pratap

> (Pratap Bhatt)

> -

>

> , " sadhak_insight "

> <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> >

> > Shree Hari

> >

> > Ram Ram

> >

> > As Mr. Naga Narayanaji explained so beautifully that this war

had

> to

> > be waged for the righteousness sake after exhausting all the

> > peaceful means to resolve the issues.

> >

> > Also, as Nagaji pointed out that the weakness has been there all

> > along with the Hindus, they have not stood up to the occasion

when

> > they should have, while facing foreign invasions over the years.

> > Perhaps they thought they would be doing Violence (Himsa) if

they

> > fought back. Swami Vivekananda pounded this message of strength

> > again and again to wake up the Indian masses against the

> prevailing

> > lethargy and weakness.

> >

> > While in delusion, Arjuna too says in Gitaji (1-36):

> > " O Janaradana, what joy we can be derive by slaying the sons

of

> > Dhrtarastra, sin alone will accrue to us by killing these

> felons " .

> >

> > Lord Krishna scolds Arjuna in Gitaji (2-33):

> > " Now, if you will not wage such a righteous war, then,

abandoning

> > your duty and losing your reputation, you will incur sin " .

> >

> > An interesting question - is it really fair even to raise a

doubt

> > about Pandvas killing Kaurvas in the Mahabharat war?

> >

> > Few observations to ponder over:

> >

> > This was a Dharma Yudha fought in Kurukshetra which has been

> called

> > as a Dharma Kshetra, in the presence of Lord Himself, who is the

> > protector and upholder of the Dharma. Would Lord Krishna not

stop

> > this war if He felt the war was not being faught for the right

> > reasons.

> >

> > How would the mankind receive the marvelous message of Gitaji if

> it

> > there were not the unique setting of this war.

> >

> > Gitaji says it is not the actions which matter but motivation

> behind

> > them which is important. (Ref: Gitaji (18-17)

> > " He whose mind is free from self sense (egoism), and whose

> > understanding is free from attachment, even though slaying

all

> > these people, slays not, nor he is bound " .

> >

> > It is not the type of action which is critical but it is the

> > attitude with which actions are performed. (Ref: Gitaji 2-38)

> > " Treating alike pleasure and pain, gain and loss, victory and

> > defeat, get ready to fight, then, fighting thus you will not

incur

> > sin " .

> >

> > On Adhayatamic scale, the Mahabharat war represents the warfare

> > which is going on everyday within all sadhakas and non-sadhkas,

> the

> > good tendencies (small in number = 5) are fighting with the bad

> > tendencies (larger in number =100). This war has to be fought

and

> > won if one wishes to pursue the spiritual path.

> > Ram Ram

> >

> > Humble pranam

> > Madan Kaura

> >

> > --------------------------------

--

> -

> > B.Sathyanarayan please clarify your message

> > Can one kill his / her mother even if she has become threat to

> his /

> > her life OR life of other family members? (say she has gone mad)

> >

> > Jai Shri Krushna

> >

> > " hitsoftindia "

> > --------------------------------

--

> -

> > , " sadhak_insight "

> > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > >

> > > One small correction. Duryodhan's father was Dhritharashtra.

> > > G.Vaidyanathan

> > > ------------------------------

--

> --

> > -

> > > , " sadhak_insight "

> > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Dear sadhaks,

> > > >

> > > > you are right in your thinking.

> > > > Our scripts say -Death comes by accidents, by calamities- by

> > other

> > > > living beings such as snake bite, by tiger killing human and

> > other

> > > > animals. Death comes by diseases based on one`s karma, so

on.

> > > > Sastras are considered as pramanams. Sastra says human

killing

> > > > another human is known as Brahma Hathi (Brahma Dhosam)

> certainly

> > a

> > > > sin.

> > > >

> > > > But same scripts say- Killing some bad one to save a village

> is

> > NO

> > > > sin. Destroying a village and people is No sin to save a big

> > town.

> > > > Destroying a town to save 10 towns is NO sin. Destroying 10

> > towns

> > > to

> > > > save a big city (100 towns) is NO sin.

> > > >

> > > > Killing some one causes sin (Brama Hathi). But that act done

> for

> > > the

> > > > good of society at large is called Dharma. That act should

> never

> > > be

> > > > even 0.001% for selfish gains. Anything done for selfish

gain

> > > become

> > > > Paapa (sin). Anything done for selfless gain becomes Punnya.

> > > > Kauravas were so wicked, notorious, corrupted, they did

> anything

> > > and

> > > > everything for their pleasures, not being mindful of others

> > > > sufferings. They were given may opportunities to rectify

> > > themselves.

> > > > At end they remained the evil and had to be killed for

> > maintaining

> > > > peace and dharma.

> > > >

> > > > When Pandavas were children, Duryodan (He) mixed poison in

> > sweets

> > > > (Laddu) and gave to Bheema. Bheema Was saved. Later He

wanted

> to

> > > kill

> > > > Pandavas, made a wax house for them to stay in and soon

after

> > set

> > > > fire to it. Pandavas escaped through a tunnel. Again he

> planned

> > > and

> > > > made Pandavas to gamble, took away their property, disrobed

> > > Droupati,

> > > > sent them to exile. While they were in forest, Duryodana

> visited

> > > > adject forest to have Vana Bojana. Indra sent Gandarvas to

> > arrest

> > > > Duryodana, Karna and others. Gandarvas tied them up and was

> > > dragging.

> > > > The news went to Dharmaraja. Bheema felt happy, but

Dharmaraja

> > > said

> > > > to Arjuna to wage war with Gandarvas and release Duryodana's

> > > people.

> > > > Later when Pandavas were in Agnathavas, Duryodhan waged war

> > > illegally

> > > > and lost the battle. Bagavan Krishna visited as messenger to

> > > > pandavas, asked to compensate ONLY 5 villages to Pandavas,

> > > Duryodana

> > > > refused saying that He will not give place as small as a

> neddle

> > > > point. He again tried to rope up Bagavan and kill Sri

Krishna,

> > who

> > > > took Viswaroop and showed HIS might. Duryodana said to

others

> > that

> > > > Viswaroop was magic/illusion.

> > > >

> > > > Duryodana uppa Kathas (small incidents) show He was wicked,

> > > > notorious, cunning, wreckless, dishonourable to parents and

> > > elders,

> > > > womaniser, cheater etc. Therfore with heavy bad deeds to His

> > > account

> > > > He had was given very long rope and then killed. One stage

> > Bagavan

> > > > and Vithura asks Duryodhana, " Is it correct to do all these

> > sins " .

> > > > Duryodan replied, " I cannot help it though I know I am doing

> > worst

> > > > sins " .

> > > >

> > > > Duryodana father Dukshasan was a bad man in earlier birth

> > blinding

> > > > crane birds. So he was born blind and senseless.

> > > > Such bad people Bagavan said that they are to be killed by

> > Arjuna

> > > > (king) which is Arjuna's Dharma to safeguard interests of

> > society

> > > at

> > > > large and also to establish Dharma on earth. Leaving and

> running

> > > away

> > > > is not king` s Karma Marg.

> > > > To Vudhava Bagavan said go to Badrinath and do Tapas,

because

> > > Vudhava

> > > > was fit for that as his gnana Marg

> > > > Namaste

> > > > B.Sathyanarayan

> > > > ----------------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > >

> > > > , " sadhak_insight "

> > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > Dear Learned Sadhaks

> > > > >

> > > > > Ram Ram

> > > > >

> > > > > My 2nd question on Gitaji

> > > > >

> > > > > All living persons have Atma (Gitaji)

> > > > >

> > > > > Atma is a part of GOD as I understand.

> > > > >

> > > > > Therefore all living being are having a common factor

called

> > God.

> > > > >

> > > > > Can we communicate through this common factor (Telepathy,

> mind

> > > > > reading, knowing that a person is good or bad and so on)

> > > > >

> > > > > Each person has God Consciousness(Narayana) in him/her

> > > > >

> > > > > Serving other person is serving God (Narayana).

> > > > >

> > > > > Why kill any living being?

> > > > >

> > > > > Why Pandvas should kill Kauravas?

> > > > >

> > > > > Please enlighten

> > > > > me

> > > > >

> > > > > Jai Sri Krishana

> > > > >

> > > > > Ramesh Kumar Suri

> > > > >

> > > > > --------------------------

--

> > GITA

> > > > > TALK GROUP GUIDELINES:

> > > > > 1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify their

> > doubts

> > > > > related to Gitaji shalokas. Therefore, responses which

> further

> > > > > clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be posted.

> > > > > 2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other

> scriptures

> > to

> > > > > substantiate your response.

> > > > > 3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc.

to

> > the

> > > > > extent that they further help in understanding the Gita

> shlokas

> > > > > 4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible,

> > respecting

> > > > > sadhaka's time.

> > > > > 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only.

> > > > > 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other

> > > > > organizations.

> > > > > 7. Kindly do not include your personal information such as

> > phone

> > > > > number, address etc.

> > > > > 8. Please do not address the response to a particular

> > individual

> > > > > since the message is going to the entire group.

> > > > > 9. Due to the large readership, all responses may not be

> > posted.

> > > > > 10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting,

if

> > > content

> > > > > is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the

group.

> > > > > 11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices,

> > youth,

> > > > > westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use

to

> > > Sanskrit

> > > > > words only, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit

> > > bracketed

> > > > > wherever possible.

> > > > >

> > > > > MODERATOR

> > > > > Ram Ram

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

May 10, 2008

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

I am grateful to Kuldipji for asking clarifying questions on answers

I shared on the subject.

At the time of death of a person, gross physical body disintegrates

into five universal elements(earth, water, fire, air, space) just as

it was integrated from them at birth. Thus person was always made

from these universal elements and never can survive as an individual

isolating him from the totality of being.

During his/her life, a person lives as if he/she is an independently

existing and separate from the totality of all beings. He is

conditioned by likes and dislikes, personal desires, genetic

conditioning, culture, traditions, society, education, etc. and

acquires vaasanas, subtle tendencies. Such traits form his subtle

(sukshma) body. A person is controlled/driven by this subtle body,

called body of ignorance consisting of past memory, personal

history, thoughts and feelings. This is the result of Atma-

Consciousness identifying itself with this subtle body we generally

call soul. Such a soul departs upon death to merge with universal

subtle body made of collective ignorance of all. From such

ignorance, new bodies are born, ignorance being the life as separate

ego in separate body. This is just a belief not investigated.

Thus the cycle of birth and death which goes on until realization

happens to that person in some life span, that he/she was never such

a person bound in body-mind organism. He was always limitless Atman,

pure and undivided Consciousness ever existent and universal

Reality. Everything, sentients and insentients are within Him,

meaning in Consciousness He is. Now we can answer questions raised

here.

1)Shraaddh is performed for departed soul so that his/her subtle

body may find some peace on its onward journey and shed its bondage

to some degree. This however becomes rituals on the part of those

who perform it due to their own ignorance. But it has some value for

those who perform with shraddha and humility and good will for the

departed.

2) As explained, it is the subtle body of ignorance of not realizing

its true nature that goes through narakas as if such bodies are

being recycled back to life to give another chance to realize the

true universality of Atman that He is, which is never bound in the

body in the first place.

3) As long as we live our lives with this separation called ego and

consider us doers of our deeds, we are bound by ignorance into such

thinking and suffering along the way. When such a person realizes

his true self as Consciousness, Absolute existence Itself, running

the show through his body-mind instrument, he/she is free to play

whatever role he/she is assigned by Divine Consciousness. Until such

time this happens he lives as if in a dream world. TO wake up from

such a dream is to live in Bliss! Then as body-mind persons we

just play our roles in a drama/dream but never suffer while playing

the roles.

We are always free from predetermined-destiny as such Consciousness.

However, it may appear to a person who is ignorant of his/her

universality as if bound in such roles. Our immortality is in taking

our true stand and lving as Consciousness-Atman while our body is

mortal, and incidental for playing role.

4) God has no plan, just celebration of life through all creation

which He Himself Is! We can realize the truth in this life if we

long for such knowledge intensely. When we do, our questions

disappear leaving us fulfilled, in our Bliss. Then, who is there to

ask questions as to what is the purpose of this creation? It is God-

Atma-Brahman all the way in celebration!

Once again, we are always free from destiny as Atman, always taking

right actions in the moment for greater good. But if we think

ourselves to be individual ego then we are controlled by world

around us, by destiny as our Conditioning!

If we live as universal Consciousness-Atman, we can never rob

another person. Our role is to be responsible for the entire

universe! Only as individual " me " based person may rob another one.

Pratap hoping this helps!

(Pratap Bhatt)

Dear Sadak,

In Bhagavath Geetha, Bhagavan describes a character as " Guna

Theethan " . This person lives very calm, whatever may come and

whatever may happen. He does NOT ask for God`s help. He never gets

perturbed by happiness or sorrow. He never asks anything even if I

(Bhagavan) appears to give him with a boon. I (Bhagavan) likes such

a devotee, very much.

Refering a sadak writing below: Guna Theethan knows that it is God`s

responsibility and never wants to disturb God. He knows that God was

always caring and will always care. He himself has surrendered to

God. He sees no difference if magic happens or death takes place.

He serves but does not think he is serving God` s people as he has

removed that- I & Mine.

If one should think he is serving then the phala Karma (action of

serving) goes to that person. If one serves without any thought,

then the pala goes to Bhagavan.

Naradha thought that why people are not saying, Narayana. He was

made to realise through a Brahmin who never said Narayana. Referance

Padma Puranam. Sathybama thought she was serving Bhagavan. She was

made to realise through Sri Krishna Thulabaaram. Bheema thought he

was mighter before Krishna and was made to realise that Bheema was

unable to lift even a monkey's (Sri Hanuman in disguise) tail.

Referance Maha Bharatham.

Sadaks-- Bagavan is " SERVAGNIYAM- SERVASATHAN " . HE gave mother

devaki all 7 children killed by Kans. HE gave HIS guru Sandeepan his

son who died long before.

Sadaks--This does not mean we can ask and HE will give. HE knows

what to give.

Let us all be like Guna Theethan (by His grace)

B.Sathyanarayan

, " sadhak_insight "

<sadhak_insight wrote:

>

> Dear Sadaks and " hitsoftindia "

>

> Mother (Maatha), Father (Phitta), Spiritual Guide (Guru) and

Deivam.

> Maatha is the first step on earth, Pittha 2nd education, Guru 3rd

> step to Gynana marg 3rd step and Deivam (God) 4th step final to

> Moksha. Ultimate goal of any living form is Liberation. So mother,

> father and Guru has been with us in several births. But we continue

> this cycle of birth and death without reaching divinity. Parents

and

> Guru have their limitations. But God is unlimited. To reach the

> stage of Dharma you need virtuous actions (Karmas).

>

> Examples: Harischandra was to behead his wife. Viswamitra stopped

> and praised the dharmic act. Sandikeswarar (a famous Shiva

Devotee)

> he regularly used to do abishek to Bagavan Shiva made by himself

out

> of sand. His father got angry on that act and rushed to kick the

> sand mould (Shiva) on which Sandikeswarar was pouring milk. When

the

> Son hit his father`s leg with Dharba (holy dry grass), the father's

> leg was chopped off. Realisation took place.

>

> Yudhistera was asked by Yeksha to take a boon to save one of his

four

> brothers who was lying dead. Yudhistra asked for the youngest.

> Yaksha asked to Yudistra why he has not opted for Arjuna or Bheema

> who could be helpful in war. Yudhistra said he is there to do last

> rights of his mother, but if Shahadev is not brought to life there

> is no one to do last rights of his mother. Besides asking for

> Arjuna/Bheema, would be a selfish act.

>

> If mother should go Mad, then it is son` s duty to take her away

> from society and live with her. But if mother becomes threat to

> son/daughter life, and society at large, then one needs to do what

> is beneficial and less harmful to more people at large.

>

> Bagavan Parasuram one of the 10 Avathar had chopped of his mother`

s

> head just to abide by his father` s order. Later his father very

> satisfied asked Parasuram what boon he wanted. Parasuram asked his

> father that to return his mother back to life. 1st Matha Vakiyam

> Paripalanam, next higher step father Vakiyam, next Guru Vakiyam,

and

> highest is obeying GOD`S words without asking any question.

>

> Example: During war in Kurushetra, Bagavan says to Yudistara, " to

> shout out that Ashvadhama died " . Yudistatra refused to say lie.

> Bagavan asks Bheema to kill an elephant called Ashwadhama. Bheema

> kills the elephant without any question even in mind. Then sadhaks

> you all know what happened.

>

> Much later when Pandavas die, Yudhistara meets Sri Krishna in

> heavens. Bheema was in heaven before Yudhisthir.

> Yudhistara asks Sri Krishna why Bheema was first? Bagavan says,

> Bheema did what I (BHagavan) said without questioning, but you

> Yudhistara you only did what you were asked to say, only after

> questioning.

>

> Taken from the perspective of " Vasudeva Sarvam " , the one being

killed and one performing the act of killing are the same Sriman

Narayana.

>

> Bagavan in Geetha clearly says, " I am in everything but I not

that " .

> Bagavan is in you but HE is not the body. Body functions as per

> Karmas but Bagavan remains witness. Gynaneswar moved walls

(achetanam). The wall had the power of Bagavan but Bagavan is not

wall. Prahlad showed Narashima (God) in a pillar but Bagavan is not

that pillar.

>

> Simply understand this that GOD is Omnipresent and let your mind

not

> go too deep into sastras. Adi Sankara said that going deep in

Sastras you may offset yourself from GOD.

>

> Namaste

>

> B.Sathyanarayan

>

> -------------------------

> Shree Hari

> Ram Ram

>

> Seek help from God, by placing your mother in God's lap, and

praying

> to God, " Bhagavan - she is now Your responsibility. I am unable

to take care of the situation on my own. Only You can take care of

her. You have been doing so all along, but I have been thinking

that it is me. Please take what belongs to you back to you. You

only take care of her, I cannot do it " In this manner, surrender

her over to God and He will surely take care of her. You will see

the magic as Pujya Swamiji has said on number of occasions. In the

mean time continue to do all the necessary seva as if she belongs to

God and you are serving His people. It is no longer your problem,

you are only serving God's people (not your mother). Be at ease and

peace ! You will see the magic.

>

> A Sadhak

> -----------------------------

> parnaaams...

>

> dear Pratap Bhatt,

>

> please clarify few doubts....

>

> 1.If Atman is Universal Principal...after the death of a person..

> why we Hindus practice Sharaads and other rituals to make way for

the departed soul.for its easy passage....

> 2.The Different Narkas as described in the Book Gruer Purana..

> is it merely Myth?... as Atman cannot be divided and touched..who

goes

> through those Dark Worlds mentioned in the Book.

> 3.you further wrote..our roles including dying as assigned in the

script, which is written, directed, played and watched by God

through us! Roles are mortals but " we " who play these roles are

One mortal Conscious Being.

> If each and every event is predermmined, already written as our

role...then when a person robs another, what is his fault ? as the

script is already written ?

>

> What was God 's purpose of this Creation..if every thing He

already wrote?

>

> Thanks..

>

> kuldip suri

>

> ------------------------------

> , " sadhak_insight "

> <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> >

> > Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

> >

> > Insightful answers are given already on this subject by Sadhakas.

> >

> > I want to emphasize some points I see important.

> >

> > Many may still think and believe Atma is residing in individual

> mind-

> > body, existing separately in each. This is too simplistic view if

> > not properly investigated.

> >

> > Atman is ONE unique experience of Being which is also at the same

> > time knowingness or Consciousness we all share. Just as space

> cannot

> > be divided or corrupted by objects of the world, Consciousness,

> > subtlest than space, cannot be divided, nor touched, nor

> > differentiated as separate objects. Objects are perceived by

Atman

> > and are also made up of the same vastue as Atman or consciousness

> we

> > experience as thoughts or feelings creating apparant separations

> > among conceived objects. Upon inquiry one may discover Atman to

be

> > impersonal, infinite, ONE Wholeness, homogeneous in nature. This

> is

> > Absolute reality or Brahman. Atman is Brahman, proclaimed

> > Upanishadic sages!

> >

> > Brahman appears diverse as nature with all sentient and

insentient

> > beings trigunatmik in nature. This is relative truth of

everything

> > that a mind can know. It is like a movie manifesting diversity

> from

> > ONE light of projector passing through films, or a dream

> manifesting

> > many objects in one mind.

> >

> > Once known for what it is, our true nature, this consciousness of

> > being is realized as eternal, immortal. Now the world of

> relativity

> > becomes leela or drama, so to speak. In such a play we enjoy

> playing

> > our roles including dying as assigned in the script, which is

> > written, directed, played and watched by God through us! Roles

> are

> > mortals but " we " who play these roles are One immortal Conscious

> > Being.

> >

> > To play our roles in the drama in the best possible way is the

> only

> > thing we can do once we are convinced it is so! This is why

> Pandavas

> > killed Kauravas(bodies), and this is also why it is said Yada

> yadahi

> > dharmasya.........

> >

> > In the play of Mahabharata Arjuna was enlightened by Lord, the

> > supeme Consciousness!Kauravas played the roles of evil beings and

> > died in war and thus Dharma was restablished all per the script.

> >

> > Namaskar......Pratap

> > (Pratap Bhatt)

> > --------------------------------

--

> >

> > , " sadhak_insight "

> > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Shree Hari

> > >

> > > Ram Ram

> > >

> > > As Mr. Naga Narayanaji explained so beautifully that this war

> had

> > to

> > > be waged for the righteousness sake after exhausting all the

> > > peaceful means to resolve the issues.

> > >

> > > Also, as Nagaji pointed out that the weakness has been there

all

> > > along with the Hindus, they have not stood up to the occasion

> when

> > > they should have, while facing foreign invasions over the

years.

> > > Perhaps they thought they would be doing Violence (Himsa) if

> they

> > > fought back. Swami Vivekananda pounded this message of

strength

> > > again and again to wake up the Indian masses against the

> > prevailing

> > > lethargy and weakness.

> > >

> > > While in delusion, Arjuna too says in Gitaji (1-36):

> > > " O Janaradana, what joy we can be derive by slaying the sons

> of

> > > Dhrtarastra, sin alone will accrue to us by killing these

> > felons " .

> > >

> > > Lord Krishna scolds Arjuna in Gitaji (2-33):

> > > " Now, if you will not wage such a righteous war, then,

> abandoning

> > > your duty and losing your reputation, you will incur sin " .

> > >

> > > An interesting question - is it really fair even to raise a

> doubt

> > > about Pandvas killing Kaurvas in the Mahabharat war?

> > >

> > > Few observations to ponder over:

> > >

> > > This was a Dharma Yudha fought in Kurukshetra which has been

> > called

> > > as a Dharma Kshetra, in the presence of Lord Himself, who is

the

> > > protector and upholder of the Dharma. Would Lord Krishna not

> stop

> > > this war if He felt the war was not being faught for the right

> > > reasons.

> > >

> > > How would the mankind receive the marvelous message of Gitaji

if

> > it

> > > there were not the unique setting of this war.

> > >

> > > Gitaji says it is not the actions which matter but motivation

> > behind

> > > them which is important. (Ref: Gitaji (18-17)

> > > " He whose mind is free from self sense (egoism), and whose

> > > understanding is free from attachment, even though slaying

> all

> > > these people, slays not, nor he is bound " .

> > >

> > > It is not the type of action which is critical but it is the

> > > attitude with which actions are performed. (Ref: Gitaji 2-38)

> > > " Treating alike pleasure and pain, gain and loss, victory and

> > > defeat, get ready to fight, then, fighting thus you will not

> incur

> > > sin " .

> > >

> > > On Adhayatamic scale, the Mahabharat war represents the warfare

> > > which is going on everyday within all sadhakas and non-sadhkas,

> > the

> > > good tendencies (small in number = 5) are fighting with the bad

> > > tendencies (larger in number =100). This war has to be fought

> and

> > > won if one wishes to pursue the spiritual path.

> > > Ram Ram

> > >

> > > Humble pranam

> > > Madan Kaura

> > >

> > > ------------------------------

--

> --

> > -

> > > B.Sathyanarayan please clarify your message

> > > Can one kill his / her mother even if she has become threat to

> > his /

> > > her life OR life of other family members? (say she has gone

mad)

> > >

> > > Jai Shri Krushna

> > >

> > > " hitsoftindia "

> > > ------------------------------

--

> --

> > -

> > > , " sadhak_insight "

> > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > One small correction. Duryodhan's father was Dhritharashtra.

> > > > G.Vaidyanathan

> > > > ----------------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > -

> > > > , " sadhak_insight "

> > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > Dear sadhaks,

> > > > >

> > > > > you are right in your thinking.

> > > > > Our scripts say -Death comes by accidents, by calamities-

by

> > > other

> > > > > living beings such as snake bite, by tiger killing human

and

> > > other

> > > > > animals. Death comes by diseases based on one`s karma, so

> on.

> > > > > Sastras are considered as pramanams. Sastra says human

> killing

> > > > > another human is known as Brahma Hathi (Brahma Dhosam)

> > certainly

> > > a

> > > > > sin.

> > > > >

> > > > > But same scripts say- Killing some bad one to save a

village

> > is

> > > NO

> > > > > sin. Destroying a village and people is No sin to save a

big

> > > town.

> > > > > Destroying a town to save 10 towns is NO sin. Destroying 10

> > > towns

> > > > to

> > > > > save a big city (100 towns) is NO sin.

> > > > >

> > > > > Killing some one causes sin (Brama Hathi). But that act

done

> > for

> > > > the

> > > > > good of society at large is called Dharma. That act should

> > never

> > > > be

> > > > > even 0.001% for selfish gains. Anything done for selfish

> gain

> > > > become

> > > > > Paapa (sin). Anything done for selfless gain becomes

Punnya.

> > > > > Kauravas were so wicked, notorious, corrupted, they did

> > anything

> > > > and

> > > > > everything for their pleasures, not being mindful of others

> > > > > sufferings. They were given may opportunities to rectify

> > > > themselves.

> > > > > At end they remained the evil and had to be killed for

> > > maintaining

> > > > > peace and dharma.

> > > > >

> > > > > When Pandavas were children, Duryodan (He) mixed poison in

> > > sweets

> > > > > (Laddu) and gave to Bheema. Bheema Was saved. Later He

> wanted

> > to

> > > > kill

> > > > > Pandavas, made a wax house for them to stay in and soon

> after

> > > set

> > > > > fire to it. Pandavas escaped through a tunnel. Again he

> > planned

> > > > and

> > > > > made Pandavas to gamble, took away their property, disrobed

> > > > Droupati,

> > > > > sent them to exile. While they were in forest, Duryodana

> > visited

> > > > > adject forest to have Vana Bojana. Indra sent Gandarvas to

> > > arrest

> > > > > Duryodana, Karna and others. Gandarvas tied them up and was

> > > > dragging.

> > > > > The news went to Dharmaraja. Bheema felt happy, but

> Dharmaraja

> > > > said

> > > > > to Arjuna to wage war with Gandarvas and release

Duryodana's

> > > > people.

> > > > > Later when Pandavas were in Agnathavas, Duryodhan waged war

> > > > illegally

> > > > > and lost the battle. Bagavan Krishna visited as messenger

to

> > > > > pandavas, asked to compensate ONLY 5 villages to Pandavas,

> > > > Duryodana

> > > > > refused saying that He will not give place as small as a

> > neddle

> > > > > point. He again tried to rope up Bagavan and kill Sri

> Krishna,

> > > who

> > > > > took Viswaroop and showed HIS might. Duryodana said to

> others

> > > that

> > > > > Viswaroop was magic/illusion.

> > > > >

> > > > > Duryodana uppa Kathas (small incidents) show He was wicked,

> > > > > notorious, cunning, wreckless, dishonourable to parents and

> > > > elders,

> > > > > womaniser, cheater etc. Therfore with heavy bad deeds to

His

> > > > account

> > > > > He had was given very long rope and then killed. One stage

> > > Bagavan

> > > > > and Vithura asks Duryodhana, " Is it correct to do all these

> > > sins " .

> > > > > Duryodan replied, " I cannot help it though I know I am

doing

> > > worst

> > > > > sins " .

> > > > >

> > > > > Duryodana father Dukshasan was a bad man in earlier birth

> > > blinding

> > > > > crane birds. So he was born blind and senseless.

> > > > > Such bad people Bagavan said that they are to be killed by

> > > Arjuna

> > > > > (king) which is Arjuna's Dharma to safeguard interests of

> > > society

> > > > at

> > > > > large and also to establish Dharma on earth. Leaving and

> > running

> > > > away

> > > > > is not king` s Karma Marg.

> > > > > To Vudhava Bagavan said go to Badrinath and do Tapas,

> because

> > > > Vudhava

> > > > > was fit for that as his gnana Marg

> > > > > Namaste

> > > > > B.Sathyanarayan

> > > > > --------------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > --

> > > > >

> > > > > , " sadhak_insight "

> > > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Dear Learned Sadhaks

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Ram Ram

> > > > > >

> > > > > > My 2nd question on Gitaji

> > > > > >

> > > > > > All living persons have Atma (Gitaji)

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Atma is a part of GOD as I understand.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Therefore all living being are having a common factor

> called

> > > God.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Can we communicate through this common factor (Telepathy,

> > mind

> > > > > > reading, knowing that a person is good or bad and so on)

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Each person has God Consciousness(Narayana) in him/her

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Serving other person is serving God (Narayana).

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Why kill any living being?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Why Pandvas should kill Kauravas?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Please enlighten

> > > > > > me

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Jai Sri Krishana

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Ramesh Kumar Suri

> > > > > >

> > > > > > ------------------------

--

> --

> > > GITA

> > > > > > TALK GROUP GUIDELINES:

> > > > > > 1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify their

> > > doubts

> > > > > > related to Gitaji shalokas. Therefore, responses which

> > further

> > > > > > clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be posted.

> > > > > > 2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other

> > scriptures

> > > to

> > > > > > substantiate your response.

> > > > > > 3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc.

> to

> > > the

> > > > > > extent that they further help in understanding the Gita

> > shlokas

> > > > > > 4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible,

> > > respecting

> > > > > > sadhaka's time.

> > > > > > 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only.

> > > > > > 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or

other

> > > > > > organizations.

> > > > > > 7. Kindly do not include your personal information such

as

> > > phone

> > > > > > number, address etc.

> > > > > > 8. Please do not address the response to a particular

> > > individual

> > > > > > since the message is going to the entire group.

> > > > > > 9. Due to the large readership, all responses may not be

> > > posted.

> > > > > > 10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting,

> if

> > > > content

> > > > > > is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the

> group.

> > > > > > 11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices,

> > > youth,

> > > > > > westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use

> to

> > > > Sanskrit

> > > > > > words only, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit

> > > > bracketed

> > > > > > wherever possible.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > MODERATOR

> > > > > > Ram Ram

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

May 22, 2008

Death and life is occuring everytime in our lives. At time of

changes in residense from one city to another, the new VASA is like

new born in a new environment. The word NiVAS or AVASA comes from

VASA (under which) or VASANSI Jeernani ( old house). When one

changes business place, or goes for studies in University, kicked

out from a job, changed job for better job or taken retirement, and

lives in forest, all these are rebirths, some are by choice and some

by compulsons like accidents, suicides and diseases and calamities,

and some by samadhi. In all cases, individual is same but his/her

environment and active worlds change. When individual moves from one

place to another, then he carries most valuable assest that would be

needed at next life (new place). Similar is death, which is very far

off journey and one needs to carry very litle information of great

value.

If one has so many houses, one in Delhi, one in Mumbai, one on NY,

one in London and at all these places he has certain families united

and in love, then, the owner of these so many houses lives where he

pleases, and not bound to maintain it because the occupants do it.

Sri Krishna is that who has infinite houses and lives where he

pleases and is not bound except by love. If for example, my mother

who is like Sri Krishna has five houses in different cities built by

her five sons. And she is free to travel any where but chooses to

live where she feels intense love and need. She is free from life

and death because she is not owner of any house but lives in all

houses, and is taken care of, and free from attachment and ahankaar.

Sri Krishna is chtrazya (knower of ) all knowers (kstrazya).

Regards

K G

(krishna gopal)

----------------------------

Dear divine souls !!!!

my humble parnaams to ALL.

Pratap Bhai...you wrote in your previous mail..

Many may still think and believe Atma is residing in individual mind-

body, existing separately in each. This is too simplistic view if

not properly investigated..

1. if individual soul(jivatma) does not resides in individual

natural person...then who brought sanskara and Karmic link of past

Life to present Life..(If atma is considered universal principal)

2.When a person dies which part of the Being take away all Karmic

Acts of present Life to future births.. to prove my point i am

quoting few Verses of Gita Ji.

Chapter 15. v16

There are two purshas in the world,the immutable and the mutable;

the mutable is all these existences the Kutastha is called the

immutable.

17.

But other than these two is the highest spirit called the supereme

Self,who enters the three worlds and upbears them, the imperisahble

Lord.

18

Since I am beyond the mutable and am greater and higher even then

the immutable in the world and in the Veda I am proclaimed as the

Purshottama.

here Gita clearly says..Kshare sarwani bhutani..

all creatures are Many souls in the Cosmic Play. Each soul resides

or is present in the natural personality which carry forward the

experienc of that Life to nextlife and take birth with new

personality.

the embodied soul (Jivatama) is purush is residing in the Heart of

all creatures..

Ishwara sarwa bhutanbaaam hrideshe arjun tishtti..Iswara is residing

in the heart of all

creatures (B.Gita)18.61

If Jiva the sanatan Ansh(is)not residing in heart please explain

these verses.to clear doubts.. Why Sri Krishna used these words...

The three purshas..namely...

1.Kshar....all these creatures(Many)

2.Akshar Bhrahman....nirgun nirakaarinactive Brahman.

3.Puroshottam..the supereme Brahman Sagun sawroop the

Lord who is Controlling the world through His Shakti (Apara)

looking forwards to find answers from ALL..

kuldip suri

, " sadhak_insight "

<sadhak_insight wrote:

>

> Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

> I am grateful to Kuldipji for asking clarifying questions on

answers

> I shared on the subject.

> At the time of death of a person, gross physical body

disintegrates

> into five universal elements(earth, water, fire, air, space) just

as

> it was integrated from them at birth. Thus person was always made

> from these universal elements and never can survive as an

individual

> isolating him from the totality of being.

> During his/her life, a person lives as if he/she is an

independently

> existing and separate from the totality of all beings. He is

> conditioned by likes and dislikes, personal desires, genetic

> conditioning, culture, traditions, society, education, etc. and

> acquires vaasanas, subtle tendencies. Such traits form his subtle

> (sukshma) body. A person is controlled/driven by this subtle body,

> called body of ignorance consisting of past memory, personal

> history, thoughts and feelings. This is the result of Atma-

> Consciousness identifying itself with this subtle body we

generally

> call soul. Such a soul departs upon death to merge with universal

> subtle body made of collective ignorance of all. From such

> ignorance, new bodies are born, ignorance being the life as

separate

> ego in separate body. This is just a belief not investigated.

> Thus the cycle of birth and death which goes on until realization

> happens to that person in some life span, that he/she was never

such

> a person bound in body-mind organism. He was always limitless

Atman,

> pure and undivided Consciousness ever existent and universal

> Reality. Everything, sentients and insentients are within Him,

> meaning in Consciousness He is. Now we can answer questions

raised

> here.

> 1)Shraaddh is performed for departed soul so that his/her subtle

> body may find some peace on its onward journey and shed its

bondage

> to some degree. This however becomes rituals on the part of those

> who perform it due to their own ignorance. But it has some value

for

> those who perform with shraddha and humility and good will for the

> departed.

>

> 2) As explained, it is the subtle body of ignorance of not

realizing

> its true nature that goes through narakas as if such bodies are

> being recycled back to life to give another chance to realize the

> true universality of Atman that He is, which is never bound in the

> body in the first place.

>

> 3) As long as we live our lives with this separation called ego

and

> consider us doers of our deeds, we are bound by ignorance into

such

> thinking and suffering along the way. When such a person realizes

> his true self as Consciousness, Absolute existence Itself, running

> the show through his body-mind instrument, he/she is free to play

> whatever role he/she is assigned by Divine Consciousness. Until

such

> time this happens he lives as if in a dream world. TO wake up from

> such a dream is to live in Bliss! Then as body-mind persons we

> just play our roles in a drama/dream but never suffer while

playing

> the roles.

>

> We are always free from predetermined-destiny as such

Consciousness.

> However, it may appear to a person who is ignorant of his/her

> universality as if bound in such roles. Our immortality is in

taking

> our true stand and lving as Consciousness-Atman while our body is

> mortal, and incidental for playing role.

>

> 4) God has no plan, just celebration of life through all creation

> which He Himself Is! We can realize the truth in this life if we

> long for such knowledge intensely. When we do, our questions

> disappear leaving us fulfilled, in our Bliss. Then, who is there

to

> ask questions as to what is the purpose of this creation? It is

God-

> Atma-Brahman all the way in celebration!

>

> Once again, we are always free from destiny as Atman, always

taking

> right actions in the moment for greater good. But if we think

> ourselves to be individual ego then we are controlled by world

> around us, by destiny as our Conditioning!

> If we live as universal Consciousness-Atman, we can never rob

> another person. Our role is to be responsible for the entire

> universe! Only as individual " me " based person may rob another one.

> Pratap hoping this helps!

>

> (Pratap Bhatt)

>

> Dear Sadak,

> In Bhagavath Geetha, Bhagavan describes a character as " Guna

> Theethan " . This person lives very calm, whatever may come and

> whatever may happen. He does NOT ask for God`s help. He never gets

> perturbed by happiness or sorrow. He never asks anything even if I

> (Bhagavan) appears to give him with a boon. I (Bhagavan) likes

such

> a devotee, very much.

> Refering a sadak writing below: Guna Theethan knows that it is

God`s

> responsibility and never wants to disturb God. He knows that God

was

> always caring and will always care. He himself has surrendered to

> God. He sees no difference if magic happens or death takes

place.

> He serves but does not think he is serving God` s people as he has

> removed that- I & Mine.

> If one should think he is serving then the phala Karma (action of

> serving) goes to that person. If one serves without any thought,

> then the pala goes to Bhagavan.

> Naradha thought that why people are not saying, Narayana. He was

> made to realise through a Brahmin who never said Narayana.

Referance

> Padma Puranam. Sathybama thought she was serving Bhagavan. She was

> made to realise through Sri Krishna Thulabaaram. Bheema thought he

> was mighter before Krishna and was made to realise that Bheema was

> unable to lift even a monkey's (Sri Hanuman in disguise) tail.

> Referance Maha Bharatham.

>

> Sadaks-- Bagavan is " SERVAGNIYAM- SERVASATHAN " . HE gave mother

> devaki all 7 children killed by Kans. HE gave HIS guru Sandeepan

his

> son who died long before.

> Sadaks--This does not mean we can ask and HE will give. HE knows

> what to give.

>

> Let us all be like Guna Theethan (by His grace)

> B.Sathyanarayan

>

> , " sadhak_insight "

> <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> >

> > Dear Sadaks and " hitsoftindia "

> >

> > Mother (Maatha), Father (Phitta), Spiritual Guide (Guru) and

> Deivam.

> > Maatha is the first step on earth, Pittha 2nd education, Guru 3rd

> > step to Gynana marg 3rd step and Deivam (God) 4th step final to

> > Moksha. Ultimate goal of any living form is Liberation. So

mother,

> > father and Guru has been with us in several births. But we

continue

> > this cycle of birth and death without reaching divinity. Parents

> and

> > Guru have their limitations. But God is unlimited. To reach the

> > stage of Dharma you need virtuous actions (Karmas).

> >

> > Examples: Harischandra was to behead his wife. Viswamitra stopped

> > and praised the dharmic act. Sandikeswarar (a famous Shiva

> Devotee)

> > he regularly used to do abishek to Bagavan Shiva made by himself

> out

> > of sand. His father got angry on that act and rushed to kick the

> > sand mould (Shiva) on which Sandikeswarar was pouring milk. When

> the

> > Son hit his father`s leg with Dharba (holy dry grass), the

father's

> > leg was chopped off. Realisation took place.

> >

> > Yudhistera was asked by Yeksha to take a boon to save one of his

> four

> > brothers who was lying dead. Yudhistra asked for the youngest.

> > Yaksha asked to Yudistra why he has not opted for Arjuna or

Bheema

> > who could be helpful in war. Yudhistra said he is there to do

last

> > rights of his mother, but if Shahadev is not brought to life

there

> > is no one to do last rights of his mother. Besides asking for

> > Arjuna/Bheema, would be a selfish act.

> >

> > If mother should go Mad, then it is son` s duty to take her away

> > from society and live with her. But if mother becomes threat to

> > son/daughter life, and society at large, then one needs to do

what

> > is beneficial and less harmful to more people at large.

> >

> > Bagavan Parasuram one of the 10 Avathar had chopped of his

mother`

> s

> > head just to abide by his father` s order. Later his father very

> > satisfied asked Parasuram what boon he wanted. Parasuram asked

his

> > father that to return his mother back to life. 1st Matha Vakiyam

> > Paripalanam, next higher step father Vakiyam, next Guru Vakiyam,

> and

> > highest is obeying GOD`S words without asking any question.

> >

> > Example: During war in Kurushetra, Bagavan says to Yudistara, "

to

> > shout out that Ashvadhama died " . Yudistatra refused to say lie.

> > Bagavan asks Bheema to kill an elephant called Ashwadhama. Bheema

> > kills the elephant without any question even in mind. Then

sadhaks

> > you all know what happened.

> >

> > Much later when Pandavas die, Yudhistara meets Sri Krishna in

> > heavens. Bheema was in heaven before Yudhisthir.

> > Yudhistara asks Sri Krishna why Bheema was first? Bagavan says,

> > Bheema did what I (BHagavan) said without questioning, but you

> > Yudhistara you only did what you were asked to say, only after

> > questioning.

> >

> > Taken from the perspective of " Vasudeva Sarvam " , the one being

> killed and one performing the act of killing are the same Sriman

> Narayana.

> >

> > Bagavan in Geetha clearly says, " I am in everything but I not

> that " .

> > Bagavan is in you but HE is not the body. Body functions as per

> > Karmas but Bagavan remains witness. Gynaneswar moved walls

> (achetanam). The wall had the power of Bagavan but Bagavan is not

> wall. Prahlad showed Narashima (God) in a pillar but Bagavan is

not

> that pillar.

> >

> > Simply understand this that GOD is Omnipresent and let your mind

> not

> > go too deep into sastras. Adi Sankara said that going deep in

> Sastras you may offset yourself from GOD.

> >

> > Namaste

> >

> > B.Sathyanarayan

> >

> > -------------------------

> > Shree Hari

> > Ram Ram

> >

> > Seek help from God, by placing your mother in God's lap, and

> praying

> > to God, " Bhagavan - she is now Your responsibility. I am

unable

> to take care of the situation on my own. Only You can take care of

> her. You have been doing so all along, but I have been thinking

> that it is me. Please take what belongs to you back to you. You

> only take care of her, I cannot do it " In this manner, surrender

> her over to God and He will surely take care of her. You will see

> the magic as Pujya Swamiji has said on number of occasions. In

the

> mean time continue to do all the necessary seva as if she belongs

to

> God and you are serving His people. It is no longer your problem,

> you are only serving God's people (not your mother). Be at ease

and

> peace ! You will see the magic.

> >

> > A Sadhak

> > -----------------------------

> > parnaaams...

> >

> > dear Pratap Bhatt,

> >

> > please clarify few doubts....

> >

> > 1.If Atman is Universal Principal...after the death of a person..

> > why we Hindus practice Sharaads and other rituals to make way

for

> the departed soul.for its easy passage....

> > 2.The Different Narkas as described in the Book Gruer Purana..

> > is it merely Myth?... as Atman cannot be divided and

touched..who

> goes

> > through those Dark Worlds mentioned in the Book.

> > 3.you further wrote..our roles including dying as assigned in

the

> script, which is written, directed, played and watched by God

> through us! Roles are mortals but " we " who play these roles are

> One mortal Conscious Being.

> > If each and every event is predermmined, already written as our

> role...then when a person robs another, what is his fault ? as the

> script is already written ?

> >

> > What was God 's purpose of this Creation..if every thing He

> already wrote?

> >

> > Thanks..

> >

> > kuldip suri

> >

> > ------------------------------

> > , " sadhak_insight "

> > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

> > >

> > > Insightful answers are given already on this subject by

Sadhakas.

> > >

> > > I want to emphasize some points I see important.

> > >

> > > Many may still think and believe Atma is residing in individual

> > mind-

> > > body, existing separately in each. This is too simplistic view

if

> > > not properly investigated.

> > >

> > > Atman is ONE unique experience of Being which is also at the

same

> > > time knowingness or Consciousness we all share. Just as space

> > cannot

> > > be divided or corrupted by objects of the world, Consciousness,

> > > subtlest than space, cannot be divided, nor touched, nor

> > > differentiated as separate objects. Objects are perceived by

> Atman

> > > and are also made up of the same vastue as Atman or

consciousness

> > we

> > > experience as thoughts or feelings creating apparant

separations

> > > among conceived objects. Upon inquiry one may discover Atman

to

> be

> > > impersonal, infinite, ONE Wholeness, homogeneous in nature.

This

> > is

> > > Absolute reality or Brahman. Atman is Brahman, proclaimed

> > > Upanishadic sages!

> > >

> > > Brahman appears diverse as nature with all sentient and

> insentient

> > > beings trigunatmik in nature. This is relative truth of

> everything

> > > that a mind can know. It is like a movie manifesting diversity

> > from

> > > ONE light of projector passing through films, or a dream

> > manifesting

> > > many objects in one mind.

> > >

> > > Once known for what it is, our true nature, this consciousness

of

> > > being is realized as eternal, immortal. Now the world of

> > relativity

> > > becomes leela or drama, so to speak. In such a play we enjoy

> > playing

> > > our roles including dying as assigned in the script, which is

> > > written, directed, played and watched by God through us! Roles

> > are

> > > mortals but " we " who play these roles are One immortal

Conscious

> > > Being.

> > >

> > > To play our roles in the drama in the best possible way is the

> > only

> > > thing we can do once we are convinced it is so! This is why

> > Pandavas

> > > killed Kauravas(bodies), and this is also why it is said Yada

> > yadahi

> > > dharmasya.........

> > >

> > > In the play of Mahabharata Arjuna was enlightened by Lord, the

> > > supeme Consciousness!Kauravas played the roles of evil beings

and

> > > died in war and thus Dharma was restablished all per the

script.

> > >

> > > Namaskar......Pratap

> > > (Pratap Bhatt)

> > > ------------------------------

--

> --

> > >

> > > , " sadhak_insight "

> > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Shree Hari

> > > >

> > > > Ram Ram

> > > >

> > > > As Mr. Naga Narayanaji explained so beautifully that this war

> > had

> > > to

> > > > be waged for the righteousness sake after exhausting all the

> > > > peaceful means to resolve the issues.

> > > >

> > > > Also, as Nagaji pointed out that the weakness has been there

> all

> > > > along with the Hindus, they have not stood up to the occasion

> > when

> > > > they should have, while facing foreign invasions over the

> years.

> > > > Perhaps they thought they would be doing Violence (Himsa) if

> > they

> > > > fought back. Swami Vivekananda pounded this message of

> strength

> > > > again and again to wake up the Indian masses against the

> > > prevailing

> > > > lethargy and weakness.

> > > >

> > > > While in delusion, Arjuna too says in Gitaji (1-36):

> > > > " O Janaradana, what joy we can be derive by slaying the sons

> > of

> > > > Dhrtarastra, sin alone will accrue to us by killing these

> > > felons " .

> > > >

> > > > Lord Krishna scolds Arjuna in Gitaji (2-33):

> > > > " Now, if you will not wage such a righteous war, then,

> > abandoning

> > > > your duty and losing your reputation, you will incur sin " .

> > > >

> > > > An interesting question - is it really fair even to raise a

> > doubt

> > > > about Pandvas killing Kaurvas in the Mahabharat war?

> > > >

> > > > Few observations to ponder over:

> > > >

> > > > This was a Dharma Yudha fought in Kurukshetra which has been

> > > called

> > > > as a Dharma Kshetra, in the presence of Lord Himself, who is

> the

> > > > protector and upholder of the Dharma. Would Lord Krishna not

> > stop

> > > > this war if He felt the war was not being faught for the

right

> > > > reasons.

> > > >

> > > > How would the mankind receive the marvelous message of

Gitaji

> if

> > > it

> > > > there were not the unique setting of this war.

> > > >

> > > > Gitaji says it is not the actions which matter but motivation

> > > behind

> > > > them which is important. (Ref: Gitaji (18-17)

> > > > " He whose mind is free from self sense (egoism), and whose

> > > > understanding is free from attachment, even though slaying

> > all

> > > > these people, slays not, nor he is bound " .

> > > >

> > > > It is not the type of action which is critical but it is the

> > > > attitude with which actions are performed. (Ref: Gitaji 2-38)

> > > > " Treating alike pleasure and pain, gain and loss, victory and

> > > > defeat, get ready to fight, then, fighting thus you will not

> > incur

> > > > sin " .

> > > >

> > > > On Adhayatamic scale, the Mahabharat war represents the

warfare

> > > > which is going on everyday within all sadhakas and non-

sadhkas,

> > > the

> > > > good tendencies (small in number = 5) are fighting with the

bad

> > > > tendencies (larger in number =100). This war has to be fought

> > and

> > > > won if one wishes to pursue the spiritual path.

> > > > Ram Ram

> > > >

> > > > Humble pranam

> > > > Madan Kaura

> > > >

> > > > ----------------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > -

> > > > B.Sathyanarayan please clarify your message

> > > > Can one kill his / her mother even if she has become threat

to

> > > his /

> > > > her life OR life of other family members? (say she has gone

> mad)

> > > >

> > > > Jai Shri Krushna

> > > >

> > > > " hitsoftindia "

> > > > ----------------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > -

> > > > , " sadhak_insight "

> > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > One small correction. Duryodhan's father was

Dhritharashtra.

> > > > > G.Vaidyanathan

> > > > > --------------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > --

> > > > -

> > > > > , " sadhak_insight "

> > > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Dear sadhaks,

> > > > > >

> > > > > > you are right in your thinking.

> > > > > > Our scripts say -Death comes by accidents, by calamities-

> by

> > > > other

> > > > > > living beings such as snake bite, by tiger killing human

> and

> > > > other

> > > > > > animals. Death comes by diseases based on one`s karma,

so

> > on.

> > > > > > Sastras are considered as pramanams. Sastra says human

> > killing

> > > > > > another human is known as Brahma Hathi (Brahma Dhosam)

> > > certainly

> > > > a

> > > > > > sin.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > But same scripts say- Killing some bad one to save a

> village

> > > is

> > > > NO

> > > > > > sin. Destroying a village and people is No sin to save a

> big

> > > > town.

> > > > > > Destroying a town to save 10 towns is NO sin. Destroying

10

> > > > towns

> > > > > to

> > > > > > save a big city (100 towns) is NO sin.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Killing some one causes sin (Brama Hathi). But that act

> done

> > > for

> > > > > the

> > > > > > good of society at large is called Dharma. That act

should

> > > never

> > > > > be

> > > > > > even 0.001% for selfish gains. Anything done for selfish

> > gain

> > > > > become

> > > > > > Paapa (sin). Anything done for selfless gain becomes

> Punnya.

> > > > > > Kauravas were so wicked, notorious, corrupted, they did

> > > anything

> > > > > and

> > > > > > everything for their pleasures, not being mindful of

others

> > > > > > sufferings. They were given may opportunities to rectify

> > > > > themselves.

> > > > > > At end they remained the evil and had to be killed for

> > > > maintaining

> > > > > > peace and dharma.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > When Pandavas were children, Duryodan (He) mixed poison

in

> > > > sweets

> > > > > > (Laddu) and gave to Bheema. Bheema Was saved. Later He

> > wanted

> > > to

> > > > > kill

> > > > > > Pandavas, made a wax house for them to stay in and soon

> > after

> > > > set

> > > > > > fire to it. Pandavas escaped through a tunnel. Again he

> > > planned

> > > > > and

> > > > > > made Pandavas to gamble, took away their property,

disrobed

> > > > > Droupati,

> > > > > > sent them to exile. While they were in forest, Duryodana

> > > visited

> > > > > > adject forest to have Vana Bojana. Indra sent Gandarvas

to

> > > > arrest

> > > > > > Duryodana, Karna and others. Gandarvas tied them up and

was

> > > > > dragging.

> > > > > > The news went to Dharmaraja. Bheema felt happy, but

> > Dharmaraja

> > > > > said

> > > > > > to Arjuna to wage war with Gandarvas and release

> Duryodana's

> > > > > people.

> > > > > > Later when Pandavas were in Agnathavas, Duryodhan waged

war

> > > > > illegally

> > > > > > and lost the battle. Bagavan Krishna visited as

messenger

> to

> > > > > > pandavas, asked to compensate ONLY 5 villages to

Pandavas,

> > > > > Duryodana

> > > > > > refused saying that He will not give place as small as a

> > > neddle

> > > > > > point. He again tried to rope up Bagavan and kill Sri

> > Krishna,

> > > > who

> > > > > > took Viswaroop and showed HIS might. Duryodana said to

> > others

> > > > that

> > > > > > Viswaroop was magic/illusion.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Duryodana uppa Kathas (small incidents) show He was

wicked,

> > > > > > notorious, cunning, wreckless, dishonourable to parents

and

> > > > > elders,

> > > > > > womaniser, cheater etc. Therfore with heavy bad deeds to

> His

> > > > > account

> > > > > > He had was given very long rope and then killed. One

stage

> > > > Bagavan

> > > > > > and Vithura asks Duryodhana, " Is it correct to do all

these

> > > > sins " .

> > > > > > Duryodan replied, " I cannot help it though I know I am

> doing

> > > > worst

> > > > > > sins " .

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Duryodana father Dukshasan was a bad man in earlier birth

> > > > blinding

> > > > > > crane birds. So he was born blind and senseless.

> > > > > > Such bad people Bagavan said that they are to be killed

by

> > > > Arjuna

> > > > > > (king) which is Arjuna's Dharma to safeguard interests of

> > > > society

> > > > > at

> > > > > > large and also to establish Dharma on earth. Leaving and

> > > running

> > > > > away

> > > > > > is not king` s Karma Marg.

> > > > > > To Vudhava Bagavan said go to Badrinath and do Tapas,

> > because

> > > > > Vudhava

> > > > > > was fit for that as his gnana Marg

> > > > > > Namaste

> > > > > > B.Sathyanarayan

> > > > > > ------------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > --

> > > > --

> > > > > >

> > > > > > , " sadhak_insight "

> > > > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Dear Learned Sadhaks

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Ram Ram

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > My 2nd question on Gitaji

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > All living persons have Atma (Gitaji)

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Atma is a part of GOD as I understand.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Therefore all living being are having a common factor

> > called

> > > > God.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Can we communicate through this common factor

(Telepathy,

> > > mind

> > > > > > > reading, knowing that a person is good or bad and so

on)

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Each person has God Consciousness(Narayana) in him/her

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Serving other person is serving God (Narayana).

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Why kill any living being?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Why Pandvas should kill Kauravas?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Please enlighten

> > > > > > > me

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Jai Sri Krishana

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Ramesh Kumar Suri

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > ----------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > > GITA

> > > > > > > TALK GROUP GUIDELINES:

> > > > > > > 1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify

their

> > > > doubts

> > > > > > > related to Gitaji shalokas. Therefore, responses which

> > > further

> > > > > > > clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be

posted.

> > > > > > > 2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other

> > > scriptures

> > > > to

> > > > > > > substantiate your response.

> > > > > > > 3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs

etc.

> > to

> > > > the

> > > > > > > extent that they further help in understanding the Gita

> > > shlokas

> > > > > > > 4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible,

> > > > respecting

> > > > > > > sadhaka's time.

> > > > > > > 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand

only.

> > > > > > > 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or

> other

> > > > > > > organizations.

> > > > > > > 7. Kindly do not include your personal information

such

> as

> > > > phone

> > > > > > > number, address etc.

> > > > > > > 8. Please do not address the response to a particular

> > > > individual

> > > > > > > since the message is going to the entire group.

> > > > > > > 9. Due to the large readership, all responses may not

be

> > > > posted.

> > > > > > > 10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the

posting,

> > if

> > > > > content

> > > > > > > is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the

> > group.

> > > > > > > 11. Please respond taking into consideration the

novices,

> > > > youth,

> > > > > > > westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the

use

> > to

> > > > > Sanskrit

> > > > > > > words only, rather provide the English word with

Sanskrit

> > > > > bracketed

> > > > > > > wherever possible.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > MODERATOR

> > > > > > > Ram Ram

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

May 23, 2008

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

This is to clarify my understanding on Kuldipji's questions/doubts.

I am grateful for such opportunity.

The teaching of Bhagwat Geeta is better understood in the

Upanishadic context as it is rightly called Krishna, a fit Gwala

(cowman) who has milked the cow of Upanaishadas and milk is Geeta.

Jivatma is translated as soul, under the spell of Maya, lives with

the impressions of sanskaras, unfulfilled desires(vaasanas),

conditioned into believing and acting as a separate entity.

It's as if space in the clay pot considers itself a separate from

the universal space in ignorance! Or an ear-ring considering itself

an independent existence apart from Gold! This is perishable-Kshar

residing as though in the body which is also perishable. So that

which is perishable cannot be the ultimate truth of Jivatma-soul.

However, for explaining our ignorance, Krishna mentiones this

entity. This is what goes from body to body carrying with it

impressions of karmas, like air carrying foul smell or fragrance to

distances until exhausted and become free(pure). Hence in ignorance

or in dream it is felt as if soul is residing in the body(meaning

limitations are superimposed by Jivatma on itself), but truth is

otherwise!

Then Ishwara is Imperishable being of Jivatma, manifested Saguna

Brahman, not under the spell of Maya. These two entities are so-

called only but are really ONE, Jiva and Shiva or Jiva and Ishwara,

one being ignorance and the other being the reality or Kutastha as

referred to body or any specific object's impersishable being

aspect! One can say Jiva is such a mixture of so called two!

Now Pure Consciousness or Supreme Being is the substratum, so to

speak, for apparantly(not in reality when realization takes place)

two entities to BE.

We are really that Consciousness right now when we let go of our

ignorance of taking ourselves as limited by body-mind-intellect. We

can clearly see the stuff of all being is Consciousness, because we

experience all objects as mere perceptions/conceptions with names

and forms existing in Consciousness as Consciousness! It is as if we

wake up from the dream of ignorance. Then body is experienced being

in mind as perception of sensations, mind, in turn, experienced

being in Consciousness when thoughts are stirring. Here the mind is

really subtle body - perishable carrying the vaasanas-impressions as

explained earlier in to next body.

It is important to see that Krishna or Rishis are not validating the

Jivatma as reality of us, only an explanation or a model depicting

our condition under the influence of Maya.

We need to start seeing the truth that we are such Consciousness and

not give any credibility to that which is perishable! We were, are

and will be Imperishable Consciousness or Awareness or Brhman, Pure

and ONE BEING of all beings.

Please see this experiential reality of ourselves!

Thus we explained the three purushas of the verses of Geeta:

Jivatma, Ishwara, Brahman.

All of them point ultimately to ONE Experience of Conscious Being

never to be denied during Waking, dreaming and sleeping states of

our existence! After the body disintegrates into Bhutas, we are

still That which we were before and during the life, Eternal Being!

Namaskars... Pratap Bhatt

--

, " sadhak_insight "

<sadhak_insight wrote:

>

> Death and life is occuring everytime in our lives. At time of

> changes in residense from one city to another, the new VASA is

like

> new born in a new environment. The word NiVAS or AVASA comes from

> VASA (under which) or VASANSI Jeernani ( old house). When one

> changes business place, or goes for studies in University, kicked

> out from a job, changed job for better job or taken retirement,

and

> lives in forest, all these are rebirths, some are by choice and

some

> by compulsons like accidents, suicides and diseases and

calamities,

> and some by samadhi. In all cases, individual is same but his/her

> environment and active worlds change. When individual moves from

one

> place to another, then he carries most valuable assest that would

be

> needed at next life (new place). Similar is death, which is very

far

> off journey and one needs to carry very litle information of great

> value.

>

> If one has so many houses, one in Delhi, one in Mumbai, one on NY,

> one in London and at all these places he has certain families

united

> and in love, then, the owner of these so many houses lives where

he

> pleases, and not bound to maintain it because the occupants do it.

> Sri Krishna is that who has infinite houses and lives where he

> pleases and is not bound except by love. If for example, my mother

> who is like Sri Krishna has five houses in different cities built

by

> her five sons. And she is free to travel any where but chooses to

> live where she feels intense love and need. She is free from life

> and death because she is not owner of any house but lives in all

> houses, and is taken care of, and free from attachment and

ahankaar.

> Sri Krishna is chtrazya (knower of ) all knowers (kstrazya).

> Regards

> K G

> (krishna gopal)

> ----------------------------

> Dear divine souls !!!!

>

> my humble parnaams to ALL.

>

> Pratap Bhai...you wrote in your previous mail..

>

> Many may still think and believe Atma is residing in individual

mind-

> body, existing separately in each. This is too simplistic view if

> not properly investigated..

>

> 1. if individual soul(jivatma) does not resides in individual

> natural person...then who brought sanskara and Karmic link of past

> Life to present Life..(If atma is considered universal principal)

>

> 2.When a person dies which part of the Being take away all Karmic

> Acts of present Life to future births.. to prove my point i am

> quoting few Verses of Gita Ji.

>

> Chapter 15. v16

> There are two purshas in the world,the immutable and the mutable;

> the mutable is all these existences the Kutastha is called the

> immutable.

> 17.

> But other than these two is the highest spirit called the supereme

> Self,who enters the three worlds and upbears them, the

imperisahble

> Lord.

> 18

> Since I am beyond the mutable and am greater and higher even then

> the immutable in the world and in the Veda I am proclaimed as the

> Purshottama.

> here Gita clearly says..Kshare sarwani bhutani..

> all creatures are Many souls in the Cosmic Play. Each soul resides

> or is present in the natural personality which carry forward the

> experienc of that Life to nextlife and take birth with new

> personality.

> the embodied soul (Jivatama) is purush is residing in the Heart of

> all creatures..

> Ishwara sarwa bhutanbaaam hrideshe arjun tishtti..Iswara is

residing

> in the heart of all

> creatures (B.Gita)18.61

> If Jiva the sanatan Ansh(is)not residing in heart please explain

> these verses.to clear doubts.. Why Sri Krishna used these words...

> The three purshas..namely...

> 1.Kshar....all these creatures(Many)

> 2.Akshar Bhrahman....nirgun nirakaarinactive Brahman.

> 3.Puroshottam..the supereme Brahman Sagun sawroop the

> Lord who is Controlling the world through His Shakti (Apara)

>

> looking forwards to find answers from ALL..

>

> kuldip suri

>

> , " sadhak_insight "

> <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> >

> > Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

> > I am grateful to Kuldipji for asking clarifying questions on

> answers

> > I shared on the subject.

> > At the time of death of a person, gross physical body

> disintegrates

> > into five universal elements(earth, water, fire, air, space)

just

> as

> > it was integrated from them at birth. Thus person was always

made

> > from these universal elements and never can survive as an

> individual

> > isolating him from the totality of being.

> > During his/her life, a person lives as if he/she is an

> independently

> > existing and separate from the totality of all beings. He is

> > conditioned by likes and dislikes, personal desires, genetic

> > conditioning, culture, traditions, society, education, etc. and

> > acquires vaasanas, subtle tendencies. Such traits form his subtle

> > (sukshma) body. A person is controlled/driven by this subtle

body,

> > called body of ignorance consisting of past memory, personal

> > history, thoughts and feelings. This is the result of Atma-

> > Consciousness identifying itself with this subtle body we

> generally

> > call soul. Such a soul departs upon death to merge with

universal

> > subtle body made of collective ignorance of all. From such

> > ignorance, new bodies are born, ignorance being the life as

> separate

> > ego in separate body. This is just a belief not investigated.

> > Thus the cycle of birth and death which goes on until

realization

> > happens to that person in some life span, that he/she was never

> such

> > a person bound in body-mind organism. He was always limitless

> Atman,

> > pure and undivided Consciousness ever existent and universal

> > Reality. Everything, sentients and insentients are within Him,

> > meaning in Consciousness He is. Now we can answer questions

> raised

> > here.

> > 1)Shraaddh is performed for departed soul so that his/her subtle

> > body may find some peace on its onward journey and shed its

> bondage

> > to some degree. This however becomes rituals on the part of

those

> > who perform it due to their own ignorance. But it has some value

> for

> > those who perform with shraddha and humility and good will for

the

> > departed.

> >

> > 2) As explained, it is the subtle body of ignorance of not

> realizing

> > its true nature that goes through narakas as if such bodies are

> > being recycled back to life to give another chance to realize

the

> > true universality of Atman that He is, which is never bound in

the

> > body in the first place.

> >

> > 3) As long as we live our lives with this separation called ego

> and

> > consider us doers of our deeds, we are bound by ignorance into

> such

> > thinking and suffering along the way. When such a person

realizes

> > his true self as Consciousness, Absolute existence Itself,

running

> > the show through his body-mind instrument, he/she is free to

play

> > whatever role he/she is assigned by Divine Consciousness. Until

> such

> > time this happens he lives as if in a dream world. TO wake up

from

> > such a dream is to live in Bliss! Then as body-mind persons we

> > just play our roles in a drama/dream but never suffer while

> playing

> > the roles.

> >

> > We are always free from predetermined-destiny as such

> Consciousness.

> > However, it may appear to a person who is ignorant of his/her

> > universality as if bound in such roles. Our immortality is in

> taking

> > our true stand and lving as Consciousness-Atman while our body

is

> > mortal, and incidental for playing role.

> >

> > 4) God has no plan, just celebration of life through all

creation

> > which He Himself Is! We can realize the truth in this life if we

> > long for such knowledge intensely. When we do, our questions

> > disappear leaving us fulfilled, in our Bliss. Then, who is there

> to

> > ask questions as to what is the purpose of this creation? It is

> God-

> > Atma-Brahman all the way in celebration!

> >

> > Once again, we are always free from destiny as Atman, always

> taking

> > right actions in the moment for greater good. But if we think

> > ourselves to be individual ego then we are controlled by world

> > around us, by destiny as our Conditioning!

> > If we live as universal Consciousness-Atman, we can never rob

> > another person. Our role is to be responsible for the entire

> > universe! Only as individual " me " based person may rob another

one.

> > Pratap hoping this helps!

> >

> > (Pratap Bhatt)

> > --------------------------------

-

> >

> > Dear Sadak,

> > In Bhagavath Geetha, Bhagavan describes a character as " Guna

> > Theethan " . This person lives very calm, whatever may come and

> > whatever may happen. He does NOT ask for God`s help. He never

gets

> > perturbed by happiness or sorrow. He never asks anything even if

I

> > (Bhagavan) appears to give him with a boon. I (Bhagavan) likes

> such

> > a devotee, very much.

> > Refering a sadak writing below: Guna Theethan knows that it is

> God`s

> > responsibility and never wants to disturb God. He knows that God

> was

> > always caring and will always care. He himself has surrendered

to

> > God. He sees no difference if magic happens or death takes

> place.

> > He serves but does not think he is serving God` s people as he

has

> > removed that- I & Mine.

> > If one should think he is serving then the phala Karma (action

of

> > serving) goes to that person. If one serves without any thought,

> > then the pala goes to Bhagavan.

> > Naradha thought that why people are not saying, Narayana. He was

> > made to realise through a Brahmin who never said Narayana.

> Referance

> > Padma Puranam. Sathybama thought she was serving Bhagavan. She

was

> > made to realise through Sri Krishna Thulabaaram. Bheema thought

he

> > was mighter before Krishna and was made to realise that Bheema

was

> > unable to lift even a monkey's (Sri Hanuman in disguise) tail.

> > Referance Maha Bharatham.

> >

> > Sadaks-- Bagavan is " SERVAGNIYAM- SERVASATHAN " . HE gave mother

> > devaki all 7 children killed by Kans. HE gave HIS guru Sandeepan

> his

> > son who died long before.

> > Sadaks--This does not mean we can ask and HE will give. HE knows

> > what to give.

> >

> > Let us all be like Guna Theethan (by His grace)

> > B.Sathyanarayan

> >

> > --------------------------------

-

> > , " sadhak_insight "

> > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Dear Sadaks and " hitsoftindia "

> > >

> > > Mother (Maatha), Father (Phitta), Spiritual Guide (Guru) and

> > Deivam.

> > > Maatha is the first step on earth, Pittha 2nd education, Guru

3rd

> > > step to Gynana marg 3rd step and Deivam (God) 4th step final to

> > > Moksha. Ultimate goal of any living form is Liberation. So

> mother,

> > > father and Guru has been with us in several births. But we

> continue

> > > this cycle of birth and death without reaching divinity.

Parents

> > and

> > > Guru have their limitations. But God is unlimited. To reach the

> > > stage of Dharma you need virtuous actions (Karmas).

> > >

> > > Examples: Harischandra was to behead his wife. Viswamitra

stopped

> > > and praised the dharmic act. Sandikeswarar (a famous Shiva

> > Devotee)

> > > he regularly used to do abishek to Bagavan Shiva made by

himself

> > out

> > > of sand. His father got angry on that act and rushed to kick

the

> > > sand mould (Shiva) on which Sandikeswarar was pouring milk.

When

> > the

> > > Son hit his father`s leg with Dharba (holy dry grass), the

> father's

> > > leg was chopped off. Realisation took place.

> > >

> > > Yudhistera was asked by Yeksha to take a boon to save one of

his

> > four

> > > brothers who was lying dead. Yudhistra asked for the youngest.

> > > Yaksha asked to Yudistra why he has not opted for Arjuna or

> Bheema

> > > who could be helpful in war. Yudhistra said he is there to do

> last

> > > rights of his mother, but if Shahadev is not brought to life

> there

> > > is no one to do last rights of his mother. Besides asking for

> > > Arjuna/Bheema, would be a selfish act.

> > >

> > > If mother should go Mad, then it is son` s duty to take her

away

> > > from society and live with her. But if mother becomes threat to

> > > son/daughter life, and society at large, then one needs to do

> what

> > > is beneficial and less harmful to more people at large.

> > >

> > > Bagavan Parasuram one of the 10 Avathar had chopped of his

> mother`

> > s

> > > head just to abide by his father` s order. Later his father

very

> > > satisfied asked Parasuram what boon he wanted. Parasuram asked

> his

> > > father that to return his mother back to life. 1st Matha

Vakiyam

> > > Paripalanam, next higher step father Vakiyam, next Guru

Vakiyam,

> > and

> > > highest is obeying GOD`S words without asking any question.

> > >

> > > Example: During war in Kurushetra, Bagavan says to

Yudistara, "

> to

> > > shout out that Ashvadhama died " . Yudistatra refused to say lie.

> > > Bagavan asks Bheema to kill an elephant called Ashwadhama.

Bheema

> > > kills the elephant without any question even in mind. Then

> sadhaks

> > > you all know what happened.

> > >

> > > Much later when Pandavas die, Yudhistara meets Sri Krishna in

> > > heavens. Bheema was in heaven before Yudhisthir.

> > > Yudhistara asks Sri Krishna why Bheema was first? Bagavan

says,

> > > Bheema did what I (BHagavan) said without questioning, but you

> > > Yudhistara you only did what you were asked to say, only after

> > > questioning.

> > >

> > > Taken from the perspective of " Vasudeva Sarvam " , the one being

> > killed and one performing the act of killing are the same Sriman

> > Narayana.

> > >

> > > Bagavan in Geetha clearly says, " I am in everything but I not

> > that " .

> > > Bagavan is in you but HE is not the body. Body functions as per

> > > Karmas but Bagavan remains witness. Gynaneswar moved walls

> > (achetanam). The wall had the power of Bagavan but Bagavan is

not

> > wall. Prahlad showed Narashima (God) in a pillar but Bagavan is

> not

> > that pillar.

> > >

> > > Simply understand this that GOD is Omnipresent and let your

mind

> > not

> > > go too deep into sastras. Adi Sankara said that going deep in

> > Sastras you may offset yourself from GOD.

> > >

> > > Namaste

> > >

> > > B.Sathyanarayan

> > >

> > > -------------------------

> > > Shree Hari

> > > Ram Ram

> > >

> > > Seek help from God, by placing your mother in God's lap, and

> > praying

> > > to God, " Bhagavan - she is now Your responsibility. I am

> unable

> > to take care of the situation on my own. Only You can take care

of

> > her. You have been doing so all along, but I have been thinking

> > that it is me. Please take what belongs to you back to you.

You

> > only take care of her, I cannot do it " In this manner,

surrender

> > her over to God and He will surely take care of her. You will

see

> > the magic as Pujya Swamiji has said on number of occasions. In

> the

> > mean time continue to do all the necessary seva as if she

belongs

> to

> > God and you are serving His people. It is no longer your

problem,

> > you are only serving God's people (not your mother). Be at ease

> and

> > peace ! You will see the magic.

> > >

> > > A Sadhak

> > > -----------------------------

> > > parnaaams...

> > >

> > > dear Pratap Bhatt,

> > >

> > > please clarify few doubts....

> > >

> > > 1.If Atman is Universal Principal...after the death of a

person..

> > > why we Hindus practice Sharaads and other rituals to make way

> for

> > the departed soul.for its easy passage....

> > > 2.The Different Narkas as described in the Book Gruer Purana..

> > > is it merely Myth?... as Atman cannot be divided and

> touched..who

> > goes

> > > through those Dark Worlds mentioned in the Book.

> > > 3.you further wrote..our roles including dying as assigned in

> the

> > script, which is written, directed, played and watched by God

> > through us! Roles are mortals but " we " who play these roles

are

> > One mortal Conscious Being.

> > > If each and every event is predermmined, already written as

our

> > role...then when a person robs another, what is his fault ? as

the

> > script is already written ?

> > >

> > > What was God 's purpose of this Creation..if every thing He

> > already wrote?

> > >

> > > Thanks..

> > >

> > > kuldip suri

> > >

> > > ------------------------------

> > > , " sadhak_insight "

> > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

> > > >

> > > > Insightful answers are given already on this subject by

> Sadhakas.

> > > >

> > > > I want to emphasize some points I see important.

> > > >

> > > > Many may still think and believe Atma is residing in

individual

> > > mind-

> > > > body, existing separately in each. This is too simplistic

view

> if

> > > > not properly investigated.

> > > >

> > > > Atman is ONE unique experience of Being which is also at the

> same

> > > > time knowingness or Consciousness we all share. Just as space

> > > cannot

> > > > be divided or corrupted by objects of the world,

Consciousness,

> > > > subtlest than space, cannot be divided, nor touched, nor

> > > > differentiated as separate objects. Objects are perceived by

> > Atman

> > > > and are also made up of the same vastue as Atman or

> consciousness

> > > we

> > > > experience as thoughts or feelings creating apparant

> separations

> > > > among conceived objects. Upon inquiry one may discover Atman

> to

> > be

> > > > impersonal, infinite, ONE Wholeness, homogeneous in nature.

> This

> > > is

> > > > Absolute reality or Brahman. Atman is Brahman, proclaimed

> > > > Upanishadic sages!

> > > >

> > > > Brahman appears diverse as nature with all sentient and

> > insentient

> > > > beings trigunatmik in nature. This is relative truth of

> > everything

> > > > that a mind can know. It is like a movie manifesting

diversity

> > > from

> > > > ONE light of projector passing through films, or a dream

> > > manifesting

> > > > many objects in one mind.

> > > >

> > > > Once known for what it is, our true nature, this

consciousness

> of

> > > > being is realized as eternal, immortal. Now the world of

> > > relativity

> > > > becomes leela or drama, so to speak. In such a play we enjoy

> > > playing

> > > > our roles including dying as assigned in the script, which is

> > > > written, directed, played and watched by God through us!

Roles

> > > are

> > > > mortals but " we " who play these roles are One immortal

> Conscious

> > > > Being.

> > > >

> > > > To play our roles in the drama in the best possible way is

the

> > > only

> > > > thing we can do once we are convinced it is so! This is why

> > > Pandavas

> > > > killed Kauravas(bodies), and this is also why it is said Yada

> > > yadahi

> > > > dharmasya.........

> > > >

> > > > In the play of Mahabharata Arjuna was enlightened by Lord,

the

> > > > supeme Consciousness!Kauravas played the roles of evil

beings

> and

> > > > died in war and thus Dharma was restablished all per the

> script.

> > > >

> > > > Namaskar......Pratap

> > > > (Pratap Bhatt)

> > > > ----------------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > >

> > > > , " sadhak_insight "

> > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > Shree Hari

> > > > >

> > > > > Ram Ram

> > > > >

> > > > > As Mr. Naga Narayanaji explained so beautifully that this

war

> > > had

> > > > to

> > > > > be waged for the righteousness sake after exhausting all

the

> > > > > peaceful means to resolve the issues.

> > > > >

> > > > > Also, as Nagaji pointed out that the weakness has been

there

> > all

> > > > > along with the Hindus, they have not stood up to the

occasion

> > > when

> > > > > they should have, while facing foreign invasions over the

> > years.

> > > > > Perhaps they thought they would be doing Violence (Himsa)

if

> > > they

> > > > > fought back. Swami Vivekananda pounded this message of

> > strength

> > > > > again and again to wake up the Indian masses against the

> > > > prevailing

> > > > > lethargy and weakness.

> > > > >

> > > > > While in delusion, Arjuna too says in Gitaji (1-36):

> > > > > " O Janaradana, what joy we can be derive by slaying the

sons

> > > of

> > > > > Dhrtarastra, sin alone will accrue to us by killing these

> > > > felons " .

> > > > >

> > > > > Lord Krishna scolds Arjuna in Gitaji (2-33):

> > > > > " Now, if you will not wage such a righteous war, then,

> > > abandoning

> > > > > your duty and losing your reputation, you will incur sin " .

> > > > >

> > > > > An interesting question - is it really fair even to raise a

> > > doubt

> > > > > about Pandvas killing Kaurvas in the Mahabharat war?

> > > > >

> > > > > Few observations to ponder over:

> > > > >

> > > > > This was a Dharma Yudha fought in Kurukshetra which has

been

> > > > called

> > > > > as a Dharma Kshetra, in the presence of Lord Himself, who

is

> > the

> > > > > protector and upholder of the Dharma. Would Lord Krishna

not

> > > stop

> > > > > this war if He felt the war was not being faught for the

> right

> > > > > reasons.

> > > > >

> > > > > How would the mankind receive the marvelous message of

> Gitaji

> > if

> > > > it

> > > > > there were not the unique setting of this war.

> > > > >

> > > > > Gitaji says it is not the actions which matter but

motivation

> > > > behind

> > > > > them which is important. (Ref: Gitaji (18-17)

> > > > > " He whose mind is free from self sense (egoism), and whose

> > > > > understanding is free from attachment, even though slaying

> > > all

> > > > > these people, slays not, nor he is bound " .

> > > > >

> > > > > It is not the type of action which is critical but it is

the

> > > > > attitude with which actions are performed. (Ref: Gitaji 2-

38)

> > > > > " Treating alike pleasure and pain, gain and loss, victory

and

> > > > > defeat, get ready to fight, then, fighting thus you will

not

> > > incur

> > > > > sin " .

> > > > >

> > > > > On Adhayatamic scale, the Mahabharat war represents the

> warfare

> > > > > which is going on everyday within all sadhakas and non-

> sadhkas,

> > > > the

> > > > > good tendencies (small in number = 5) are fighting with

the

> bad

> > > > > tendencies (larger in number =100). This war has to be

fought

> > > and

> > > > > won if one wishes to pursue the spiritual path.

> > > > > Ram Ram

> > > > >

> > > > > Humble pranam

> > > > > Madan Kaura

> > > > >

> > > > > --------------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > --

> > > > -

> > > > > B.Sathyanarayan please clarify your message

> > > > > Can one kill his / her mother even if she has become

threat

> to

> > > > his /

> > > > > her life OR life of other family members? (say she has

gone

> > mad)

> > > > >

> > > > > Jai Shri Krushna

> > > > >

> > > > > " hitsoftindia "

> > > > > --------------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > --

> > > > -

> > > > > , " sadhak_insight "

> > > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > One small correction. Duryodhan's father was

> Dhritharashtra.

> > > > > > G.Vaidyanathan

> > > > > > ------------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > --

> > > > --

> > > > > -

> > > > > > , " sadhak_insight "

> > > > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Dear sadhaks,

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > you are right in your thinking.

> > > > > > > Our scripts say -Death comes by accidents, by

calamities-

>

> > by

> > > > > other

> > > > > > > living beings such as snake bite, by tiger killing

human

> > and

> > > > > other

> > > > > > > animals. Death comes by diseases based on one`s

karma,

> so

> > > on.

> > > > > > > Sastras are considered as pramanams. Sastra says human

> > > killing

> > > > > > > another human is known as Brahma Hathi (Brahma Dhosam)

> > > > certainly

> > > > > a

> > > > > > > sin.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > But same scripts say- Killing some bad one to save a

> > village

> > > > is

> > > > > NO

> > > > > > > sin. Destroying a village and people is No sin to save

a

> > big

> > > > > town.

> > > > > > > Destroying a town to save 10 towns is NO sin.

Destroying

> 10

> > > > > towns

> > > > > > to

> > > > > > > save a big city (100 towns) is NO sin.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Killing some one causes sin (Brama Hathi). But that

act

> > done

> > > > for

> > > > > > the

> > > > > > > good of society at large is called Dharma. That act

> should

> > > > never

> > > > > > be

> > > > > > > even 0.001% for selfish gains. Anything done for

selfish

> > > gain

> > > > > > become

> > > > > > > Paapa (sin). Anything done for selfless gain becomes

> > Punnya.

> > > > > > > Kauravas were so wicked, notorious, corrupted, they did

> > > > anything

> > > > > > and

> > > > > > > everything for their pleasures, not being mindful of

> others

> > > > > > > sufferings. They were given may opportunities to

rectify

> > > > > > themselves.

> > > > > > > At end they remained the evil and had to be killed for

> > > > > maintaining

> > > > > > > peace and dharma.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > When Pandavas were children, Duryodan (He) mixed

poison

> in

> > > > > sweets

> > > > > > > (Laddu) and gave to Bheema. Bheema Was saved. Later He

> > > wanted

> > > > to

> > > > > > kill

> > > > > > > Pandavas, made a wax house for them to stay in and soon

> > > after

> > > > > set

> > > > > > > fire to it. Pandavas escaped through a tunnel. Again

he

> > > > planned

> > > > > > and

> > > > > > > made Pandavas to gamble, took away their property,

> disrobed

> > > > > > Droupati,

> > > > > > > sent them to exile. While they were in forest,

Duryodana

> > > > visited

> > > > > > > adject forest to have Vana Bojana. Indra sent

Gandarvas

> to

> > > > > arrest

> > > > > > > Duryodana, Karna and others. Gandarvas tied them up

and

> was

> > > > > > dragging.

> > > > > > > The news went to Dharmaraja. Bheema felt happy, but

> > > Dharmaraja

> > > > > > said

> > > > > > > to Arjuna to wage war with Gandarvas and release

> > Duryodana's

> > > > > > people.

> > > > > > > Later when Pandavas were in Agnathavas, Duryodhan

waged

> war

> > > > > > illegally

> > > > > > > and lost the battle. Bagavan Krishna visited as

> messenger

> > to

> > > > > > > pandavas, asked to compensate ONLY 5 villages to

> Pandavas,

> > > > > > Duryodana

> > > > > > > refused saying that He will not give place as small as

a

> > > > neddle

> > > > > > > point. He again tried to rope up Bagavan and kill Sri

> > > Krishna,

> > > > > who

> > > > > > > took Viswaroop and showed HIS might. Duryodana said to

> > > others

> > > > > that

> > > > > > > Viswaroop was magic/illusion.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Duryodana uppa Kathas (small incidents) show He was

> wicked,

> > > > > > > notorious, cunning, wreckless, dishonourable to

parents

> and

> > > > > > elders,

> > > > > > > womaniser, cheater etc. Therfore with heavy bad deeds

to

> > His

> > > > > > account

> > > > > > > He had was given very long rope and then killed. One

> stage

> > > > > Bagavan

> > > > > > > and Vithura asks Duryodhana, " Is it correct to do all

> these

> > > > > sins " .

> > > > > > > Duryodan replied, " I cannot help it though I know I am

> > doing

> > > > > worst

> > > > > > > sins " .

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Duryodana father Dukshasan was a bad man in earlier

birth

> > > > > blinding

> > > > > > > crane birds. So he was born blind and senseless.

> > > > > > > Such bad people Bagavan said that they are to be

killed

> by

> > > > > Arjuna

> > > > > > > (king) which is Arjuna's Dharma to safeguard interests

of

> > > > > society

> > > > > > at

> > > > > > > large and also to establish Dharma on earth. Leaving

and

> > > > running

> > > > > > away

> > > > > > > is not king` s Karma Marg.

> > > > > > > To Vudhava Bagavan said go to Badrinath and do Tapas,

> > > because

> > > > > > Vudhava

> > > > > > > was fit for that as his gnana Marg

> > > > > > > Namaste

> > > > > > > B.Sathyanarayan

> > > > > > > ----------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > --

> > > > --

> > > > > --

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > , " sadhak_insight "

> > > > > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Dear Learned Sadhaks

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Ram Ram

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > My 2nd question on Gitaji

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > All living persons have Atma (Gitaji)

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Atma is a part of GOD as I understand.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Therefore all living being are having a common factor

> > > called

> > > > > God.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Can we communicate through this common factor

> (Telepathy,

> > > > mind

> > > > > > > > reading, knowing that a person is good or bad and so

> on)

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Each person has God Consciousness(Narayana) in

him/her

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Serving other person is serving God (Narayana).

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Why kill any living being?

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Why Pandvas should kill Kauravas?

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Please enlighten

> > > > > > > > me

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Jai Sri Krishana

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Ramesh Kumar Suri

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > --------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > --

> > > > > GITA

> > > > > > > > TALK GROUP GUIDELINES:

> > > > > > > > 1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify

> their

> > > > > doubts

> > > > > > > > related to Gitaji shalokas. Therefore, responses

which

> > > > further

> > > > > > > > clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be

> posted.

> > > > > > > > 2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other

> > > > scriptures

> > > > > to

> > > > > > > > substantiate your response.

> > > > > > > > 3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs

> etc.

> > > to

> > > > > the

> > > > > > > > extent that they further help in understanding the

Gita

> > > > shlokas

> > > > > > > > 4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible,

> > > > > respecting

> > > > > > > > sadhaka's time.

> > > > > > > > 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand

> only.

> > > > > > > > 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or

> > other

> > > > > > > > organizations.

> > > > > > > > 7. Kindly do not include your personal information

> such

> > as

> > > > > phone

> > > > > > > > number, address etc.

> > > > > > > > 8. Please do not address the response to a particular

> > > > > individual

> > > > > > > > since the message is going to the entire group.

> > > > > > > > 9. Due to the large readership, all responses may

not

> be

> > > > > posted.

> > > > > > > > 10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the

> posting,

> > > if

> > > > > > content

> > > > > > > > is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the

> > > group.

> > > > > > > > 11. Please respond taking into consideration the

> novices,

> > > > > youth,

> > > > > > > > westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the

> use

> > > to

> > > > > > Sanskrit

> > > > > > > > words only, rather provide the English word with

> Sanskrit

> > > > > > bracketed

> > > > > > > > wherever possible.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > MODERATOR

> > > > > > > > Ram Ram

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

June 6, 2008

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

To All...

Please kindly re-read the guidelines for this group and please

kindly respond with (supporting Gita shlokas), limiting personal

opinions, being concise and to the point and addressing the topic at

hand, and not calling out any specific sadhak's name . Thank you,

From the Moderator

Ram Ram

-

Hari Om !

1. Can we communicate through this common factor (Telepathy,

mind reading, knowing that a person is good or bad and so on).

Suppose we get a piece of mirror broken part from a bigger mirror

which is being kept on the wall. The bigger mirror reflects very

well because of its good quality and pure reception. It is being

cleaned every day with a lot of care and so the reflection falling

on it is very much clear.

As regards to the piece broken from it, it is being ignored and put

it away as waste and no body do the dusting or cleaning of it. A lot

of dust accumulates on it and the reflection falling upon it is not

at all clear due to the veil of dust.

Our mind is like a broken piece of mirror from the Eternal Bigger

one of the kind. It needs regular dusting for good quality

performance. Imagine the amount of negative thoughts such as hatred,

envy, jealousy, anger, ego, etc., that flow through our mind

unknowingly. They pollute our mind as the case of the dusty mirror.

We need to regular cleansing of our mind to purify it so as to get a

pure reception from the eternal Consciousness. Unless our internal

equipments (mind, intellect, etc.) are not purified, how can we

expect good results from it? Suppose our mind is a polluted vessel,

we are not going to benefit the milk or nectar which is poured in

it. First we have to keep our inner equipments clean, and then

whatever is poured in it is going to benefit us.

When we are pure and regular in dhyana, our mind gets connected with

the collective minds in the Consciousness and we get intuitions,

etc. We will be able to read others mind, by looking into their

eyes, as eyes reflect the kind of feelings and thoughts they

entertain in their mind.

There is no need to know the other person whether good or bad. It is

we that need introspection as to what type of thoughts coming to our

mind and how to improve the quality of our thoughts. Direct our

thoughts to the divine by different sadhanas prescribed by a

Realized Guru or as per the Scriptures, then we get purified.

Purification of our hearts should be for the realization of the

Infinite and not for getting sidhis. God is greater than all kinds

of sidhis. Once we get merged into the Divine, we no more need

anything like telepathy, mind reading or the need to know others'

minds.

When a flower is bloomed, its fragrance attracts the bees and

butterflies. It needs no advertisement. Bees and butterflies get

attracted to it, which is standing still on the plant. When we get

purified, good people naturally get attracted to the goodness in us.

If a person is bad or has committed great sins, even God is not

ignoring him. He is getting all the blessings as other punyatmas are

getting. He gets oxygen to breath, water from the rains, sun light,

everything as others do. Learned Sages do not consider any one papi

even if they committed great sins. They find in him some good

qualities that lie dormant in seed form in his mind, and they

stimulate the dormant good qualities in him. So he gets evolved and

purified. Likewise, we need not avoid any people, if we are purified

enough ourselves, people who have committing sins or whose actions

are bad, get purified with our company (sat-sang).

So there is no need to know the mind of others and trying to correct

them, but be a model for them to learn something from you.

2. Each person has God Consciousness(Narayana) in him/her

Serving other person is serving God (Narayana).

Why kill any living being?

Why Pandvas should kill Kauravas?

In Bhagawad Gita, Lord Krishna is not asking Arjuna to `Kill

Kauravas', but to do it duty at the battle-field. A soldier is not

killing the enemy soldiers. But just performing his duty as per the

High Command. He is not killing them for his own selfish motive. He

is saving his country.

Suppose you are Arjuna, then Lord Krishna reminds you to do your own

duty wherever you are, and dedicate the results obtaining from them

to surrender to God.

Lord Krishna indirectly asking us keeping Arjuna as a model, to

introspect ourselves. When Arjuna finds himself not capable of

performing his duties, the skills he acquired all these years have

gone mere waste. (Imagine a heart surgeon who is expert in his job,

but gets worried and turns away from his duty, when he learns the

patient in front of him is his own daughter). So Lord Krishna asks

Arjuna to turn his attention towards his inner Self (to turn within

and introspect himself). (What kind of thoughts that are coming and

going in our mind, that type of personality we have. It is said, " As

the thoughts – so the mind, as the mind – so the actions, as the

actions – so the character of the person " ). Then Arjuna saw there

were innumerable negative thoughts in his mind (number hundred and

thousand in Sanskrit denotes `many' and not the exact number

mentioned) like the 100 Kauravas and the positive thoughts he

entertained were only a handful (5 Pandavas). In order to become

brave and confident to perform any karma. He had to eradicate all

the negative thoughts that came on his way, and for that purpose

Lord Krisha is asking him to eradicate the negative thoughts

standing on his pathway (Kauravas) surrendering to the Lord the

results of the karmas. When God is giving us everything, and making

us an instrument, He is working through us, how can we be proud of

our actions?

Pranams,

Vanaja Ravi Nair.

--

my humble parnaams !

thanks for explaining ,replying to doubts raised by me.

Bhagwat Gita, is the oceon of Knowldge, the dynamic spirituality

Here and Now ... makes the Sadhak instruments of Krishna .

As I understand, it is the force acting through the instruments of

doer.. As all the instruments namly mind, body intellect, the frame

of Mind through which the force is acting really belongs to

Ishwara.. the instrument is mere nimatmatram..

Regards to All sadhaks of this forum..

thanks once again for bearing the ignorance of a ignorant child..

humble servant..

kuldip

(Kuldip Suri)

---

, " sadhak_insight "

<sadhak_insight wrote:

>

> Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

>

> This is to clarify my understanding on Kuldipji's

questions/doubts.

> I am grateful for such opportunity.

>

> The teaching of Bhagwat Geeta is better understood in the

> Upanishadic context as it is rightly called Krishna, a fit Gwala

> (cowman) who has milked the cow of Upanaishadas and milk is Geeta.

>

> Jivatma is translated as soul, under the spell of Maya, lives with

> the impressions of sanskaras, unfulfilled desires(vaasanas),

> conditioned into believing and acting as a separate entity.

>

> It's as if space in the clay pot considers itself a separate from

> the universal space in ignorance! Or an ear-ring considering

itself

> an independent existence apart from Gold! This is perishable-Kshar

> residing as though in the body which is also perishable. So that

> which is perishable cannot be the ultimate truth of Jivatma-soul.

> However, for explaining our ignorance, Krishna mentiones this

> entity. This is what goes from body to body carrying with it

> impressions of karmas, like air carrying foul smell or fragrance

to

> distances until exhausted and become free(pure). Hence in

ignorance

> or in dream it is felt as if soul is residing in the body(meaning

> limitations are superimposed by Jivatma on itself), but truth is

> otherwise!

>

> Then Ishwara is Imperishable being of Jivatma, manifested Saguna

> Brahman, not under the spell of Maya. These two entities are so-

> called only but are really ONE, Jiva and Shiva or Jiva and

Ishwara,

> one being ignorance and the other being the reality or Kutastha as

> referred to body or any specific object's impersishable being

> aspect! One can say Jiva is such a mixture of so called two!

>

> Now Pure Consciousness or Supreme Being is the substratum, so to

> speak, for apparantly(not in reality when realization takes place)

> two entities to BE.

>

> We are really that Consciousness right now when we let go of our

> ignorance of taking ourselves as limited by body-mind-intellect.

We

> can clearly see the stuff of all being is Consciousness, because

we

> experience all objects as mere perceptions/conceptions with names

> and forms existing in Consciousness as Consciousness! It is as if

we

> wake up from the dream of ignorance. Then body is experienced

being

> in mind as perception of sensations, mind, in turn, experienced

> being in Consciousness when thoughts are stirring. Here the mind

is

> really subtle body - perishable carrying the vaasanas-impressions

as

> explained earlier in to next body.

>

> It is important to see that Krishna or Rishis are not validating

the

> Jivatma as reality of us, only an explanation or a model depicting

> our condition under the influence of Maya.

>

> We need to start seeing the truth that we are such Consciousness

and

> not give any credibility to that which is perishable! We were, are

> and will be Imperishable Consciousness or Awareness or Brhman,

Pure

> and ONE BEING of all beings.

>

> Please see this experiential reality of ourselves!

>

> Thus we explained the three purushas of the verses of Geeta:

> Jivatma, Ishwara, Brahman.

>

> All of them point ultimately to ONE Experience of Conscious Being

> never to be denied during Waking, dreaming and sleeping states of

> our existence! After the body disintegrates into Bhutas, we are

> still That which we were before and during the life, Eternal Being!

>

> Namaskars... Pratap Bhatt

>

> -

-

> , " sadhak_insight "

> <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> >

> > Death and life is occuring everytime in our lives. At time of

> > changes in residense from one city to another, the new VASA is

> like

> > new born in a new environment. The word NiVAS or AVASA comes

from

> > VASA (under which) or VASANSI Jeernani ( old house). When one

> > changes business place, or goes for studies in University,

kicked

> > out from a job, changed job for better job or taken retirement,

> and

> > lives in forest, all these are rebirths, some are by choice and

> some

> > by compulsons like accidents, suicides and diseases and

> calamities,

> > and some by samadhi. In all cases, individual is same but

his/her

> > environment and active worlds change. When individual moves from

> one

> > place to another, then he carries most valuable assest that

would

> be

> > needed at next life (new place). Similar is death, which is very

> far

> > off journey and one needs to carry very litle information of

great

> > value.

> >

> > If one has so many houses, one in Delhi, one in Mumbai, one on

NY,

> > one in London and at all these places he has certain families

> united

> > and in love, then, the owner of these so many houses lives where

> he

> > pleases, and not bound to maintain it because the occupants do

it.

> > Sri Krishna is that who has infinite houses and lives where he

> > pleases and is not bound except by love. If for example, my

mother

> > who is like Sri Krishna has five houses in different cities

built

> by

> > her five sons. And she is free to travel any where but chooses

to

> > live where she feels intense love and need. She is free from

life

> > and death because she is not owner of any house but lives in all

> > houses, and is taken care of, and free from attachment and

> ahankaar.

> > Sri Krishna is chtrazya (knower of ) all knowers (kstrazya).

> > Regards

> > K G

> > (krishna gopal)

> > ----------------------------

> > Dear divine souls !!!!

> >

> > my humble parnaams to ALL.

> >

> > Pratap Bhai...you wrote in your previous mail..

> >

> > Many may still think and believe Atma is residing in individual

> mind-

> > body, existing separately in each. This is too simplistic view if

> > not properly investigated..

> >

> > 1. if individual soul(jivatma) does not resides in individual

> > natural person...then who brought sanskara and Karmic link of

past

> > Life to present Life..(If atma is considered universal principal)

> >

> > 2.When a person dies which part of the Being take away all

Karmic

> > Acts of present Life to future births.. to prove my point i am

> > quoting few Verses of Gita Ji.

> >

> > Chapter 15. v16

> > There are two purshas in the world,the immutable and the

mutable;

> > the mutable is all these existences the Kutastha is called the

> > immutable.

> > 17.

> > But other than these two is the highest spirit called the

supereme

> > Self,who enters the three worlds and upbears them, the

> imperisahble

> > Lord.

> > 18

> > Since I am beyond the mutable and am greater and higher even

then

> > the immutable in the world and in the Veda I am proclaimed as

the

> > Purshottama.

> > here Gita clearly says..Kshare sarwani bhutani..

> > all creatures are Many souls in the Cosmic Play. Each soul

resides

> > or is present in the natural personality which carry forward the

> > experienc of that Life to nextlife and take birth with new

> > personality.

> > the embodied soul (Jivatama) is purush is residing in the Heart

of

> > all creatures..

> > Ishwara sarwa bhutanbaaam hrideshe arjun tishtti..Iswara is

> residing

> > in the heart of all

> > creatures (B.Gita)18.61

> > If Jiva the sanatan Ansh(is)not residing in heart please explain

> > these verses.to clear doubts.. Why Sri Krishna used these

words...

> > The three purshas..namely...

> > 1.Kshar....all these creatures(Many)

> > 2.Akshar Bhrahman....nirgun nirakaarinactive Brahman.

> > 3.Puroshottam..the supereme Brahman Sagun sawroop the

> > Lord who is Controlling the world through His Shakti (Apara)

> >

> > looking forwards to find answers from ALL..

> >

> > kuldip suri

> >

> > --------------------------------

-

> > , " sadhak_insight "

> > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

> > > I am grateful to Kuldipji for asking clarifying questions on

> > answers

> > > I shared on the subject.

> > > At the time of death of a person, gross physical body

> > disintegrates

> > > into five universal elements(earth, water, fire, air, space)

> just

> > as

> > > it was integrated from them at birth. Thus person was always

> made

> > > from these universal elements and never can survive as an

> > individual

> > > isolating him from the totality of being.

> > > During his/her life, a person lives as if he/she is an

> > independently

> > > existing and separate from the totality of all beings. He is

> > > conditioned by likes and dislikes, personal desires, genetic

> > > conditioning, culture, traditions, society, education, etc.

and

> > > acquires vaasanas, subtle tendencies. Such traits form his

subtle

> > > (sukshma) body. A person is controlled/driven by this subtle

> body,

> > > called body of ignorance consisting of past memory, personal

> > > history, thoughts and feelings. This is the result of Atma-

> > > Consciousness identifying itself with this subtle body we

> > generally

> > > call soul. Such a soul departs upon death to merge with

> universal

> > > subtle body made of collective ignorance of all. From such

> > > ignorance, new bodies are born, ignorance being the life as

> > separate

> > > ego in separate body. This is just a belief not investigated.

> > > Thus the cycle of birth and death which goes on until

> realization

> > > happens to that person in some life span, that he/she was

never

> > such

> > > a person bound in body-mind organism. He was always limitless

> > Atman,

> > > pure and undivided Consciousness ever existent and universal

> > > Reality. Everything, sentients and insentients are within Him,

> > > meaning in Consciousness He is. Now we can answer questions

> > raised

> > > here.

> > > 1)Shraaddh is performed for departed soul so that his/her

subtle

> > > body may find some peace on its onward journey and shed its

> > bondage

> > > to some degree. This however becomes rituals on the part of

> those

> > > who perform it due to their own ignorance. But it has some

value

> > for

> > > those who perform with shraddha and humility and good will for

> the

> > > departed.

> > >

> > > 2) As explained, it is the subtle body of ignorance of not

> > realizing

> > > its true nature that goes through narakas as if such bodies

are

> > > being recycled back to life to give another chance to realize

> the

> > > true universality of Atman that He is, which is never bound in

> the

> > > body in the first place.

> > >

> > > 3) As long as we live our lives with this separation called

ego

> > and

> > > consider us doers of our deeds, we are bound by ignorance into

> > such

> > > thinking and suffering along the way. When such a person

> realizes

> > > his true self as Consciousness, Absolute existence Itself,

> running

> > > the show through his body-mind instrument, he/she is free to

> play

> > > whatever role he/she is assigned by Divine Consciousness.

Until

> > such

> > > time this happens he lives as if in a dream world. TO wake up

> from

> > > such a dream is to live in Bliss! Then as body-mind persons we

> > > just play our roles in a drama/dream but never suffer while

> > playing

> > > the roles.

> > >

> > > We are always free from predetermined-destiny as such

> > Consciousness.

> > > However, it may appear to a person who is ignorant of his/her

> > > universality as if bound in such roles. Our immortality is in

> > taking

> > > our true stand and lving as Consciousness-Atman while our body

> is

> > > mortal, and incidental for playing role.

> > >

> > > 4) God has no plan, just celebration of life through all

> creation

> > > which He Himself Is! We can realize the truth in this life if

we

> > > long for such knowledge intensely. When we do, our questions

> > > disappear leaving us fulfilled, in our Bliss. Then, who is

there

> > to

> > > ask questions as to what is the purpose of this creation? It

is

> > God-

> > > Atma-Brahman all the way in celebration!

> > >

> > > Once again, we are always free from destiny as Atman, always

> > taking

> > > right actions in the moment for greater good. But if we think

> > > ourselves to be individual ego then we are controlled by world

> > > around us, by destiny as our Conditioning!

> > > If we live as universal Consciousness-Atman, we can never rob

> > > another person. Our role is to be responsible for the entire

> > > universe! Only as individual " me " based person may rob another

> one.

> > > Pratap hoping this helps!

> > >

> > > (Pratap Bhatt)

> > > ------------------------------

--

> -

> > >

> > > Dear Sadak,

> > > In Bhagavath Geetha, Bhagavan describes a character as " Guna

> > > Theethan " . This person lives very calm, whatever may come and

> > > whatever may happen. He does NOT ask for God`s help. He never

> gets

> > > perturbed by happiness or sorrow. He never asks anything even

if

> I

> > > (Bhagavan) appears to give him with a boon. I (Bhagavan) likes

> > such

> > > a devotee, very much.

> > > Refering a sadak writing below: Guna Theethan knows that it is

> > God`s

> > > responsibility and never wants to disturb God. He knows that

God

> > was

> > > always caring and will always care. He himself has surrendered

> to

> > > God. He sees no difference if magic happens or death takes

> > place.

> > > He serves but does not think he is serving God` s people as he

> has

> > > removed that- I & Mine.

> > > If one should think he is serving then the phala Karma (action

> of

> > > serving) goes to that person. If one serves without any

thought,

> > > then the pala goes to Bhagavan.

> > > Naradha thought that why people are not saying, Narayana. He

was

> > > made to realise through a Brahmin who never said Narayana.

> > Referance

> > > Padma Puranam. Sathybama thought she was serving Bhagavan. She

> was

> > > made to realise through Sri Krishna Thulabaaram. Bheema

thought

> he

> > > was mighter before Krishna and was made to realise that Bheema

> was

> > > unable to lift even a monkey's (Sri Hanuman in disguise) tail.

> > > Referance Maha Bharatham.

> > >

> > > Sadaks-- Bagavan is " SERVAGNIYAM- SERVASATHAN " . HE gave mother

> > > devaki all 7 children killed by Kans. HE gave HIS guru

Sandeepan

> > his

> > > son who died long before.

> > > Sadaks--This does not mean we can ask and HE will give. HE

knows

> > > what to give.

> > >

> > > Let us all be like Guna Theethan (by His grace)

> > > B.Sathyanarayan

> > >

> > > ------------------------------

--

> -

> > > , " sadhak_insight "

> > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Dear Sadaks and " hitsoftindia "

> > > >

> > > > Mother (Maatha), Father (Phitta), Spiritual Guide (Guru) and

> > > Deivam.

> > > > Maatha is the first step on earth, Pittha 2nd education,

Guru

> 3rd

> > > > step to Gynana marg 3rd step and Deivam (God) 4th step final

to

> > > > Moksha. Ultimate goal of any living form is Liberation. So

> > mother,

> > > > father and Guru has been with us in several births. But we

> > continue

> > > > this cycle of birth and death without reaching divinity.

> Parents

> > > and

> > > > Guru have their limitations. But God is unlimited. To reach

the

> > > > stage of Dharma you need virtuous actions (Karmas).

> > > >

> > > > Examples: Harischandra was to behead his wife. Viswamitra

> stopped

> > > > and praised the dharmic act. Sandikeswarar (a famous Shiva

> > > Devotee)

> > > > he regularly used to do abishek to Bagavan Shiva made by

> himself

> > > out

> > > > of sand. His father got angry on that act and rushed to kick

> the

> > > > sand mould (Shiva) on which Sandikeswarar was pouring milk.

> When

> > > the

> > > > Son hit his father`s leg with Dharba (holy dry grass), the

> > father's

> > > > leg was chopped off. Realisation took place.

> > > >

> > > > Yudhistera was asked by Yeksha to take a boon to save one of

> his

> > > four

> > > > brothers who was lying dead. Yudhistra asked for the

youngest.

> > > > Yaksha asked to Yudistra why he has not opted for Arjuna or

> > Bheema

> > > > who could be helpful in war. Yudhistra said he is there to

do

> > last

> > > > rights of his mother, but if Shahadev is not brought to life

> > there

> > > > is no one to do last rights of his mother. Besides asking for

> > > > Arjuna/Bheema, would be a selfish act.

> > > >

> > > > If mother should go Mad, then it is son` s duty to take her

> away

> > > > from society and live with her. But if mother becomes threat

to

> > > > son/daughter life, and society at large, then one needs to

do

> > what

> > > > is beneficial and less harmful to more people at large.

> > > >

> > > > Bagavan Parasuram one of the 10 Avathar had chopped of his

> > mother`

> > > s

> > > > head just to abide by his father` s order. Later his father

> very

> > > > satisfied asked Parasuram what boon he wanted. Parasuram

asked

> > his

> > > > father that to return his mother back to life. 1st Matha

> Vakiyam

> > > > Paripalanam, next higher step father Vakiyam, next Guru

> Vakiyam,

> > > and

> > > > highest is obeying GOD`S words without asking any question.

> > > >

> > > > Example: During war in Kurushetra, Bagavan says to

> Yudistara, "

> > to

> > > > shout out that Ashvadhama died " . Yudistatra refused to say

lie.

> > > > Bagavan asks Bheema to kill an elephant called Ashwadhama.

> Bheema

> > > > kills the elephant without any question even in mind. Then

> > sadhaks

> > > > you all know what happened.

> > > >

> > > > Much later when Pandavas die, Yudhistara meets Sri Krishna in

> > > > heavens. Bheema was in heaven before Yudhisthir.

> > > > Yudhistara asks Sri Krishna why Bheema was first? Bagavan

> says,

> > > > Bheema did what I (BHagavan) said without questioning, but

you

> > > > Yudhistara you only did what you were asked to say, only

after

> > > > questioning.

> > > >

> > > > Taken from the perspective of " Vasudeva Sarvam " , the one

being

> > > killed and one performing the act of killing are the same

Sriman

> > > Narayana.

> > > >

> > > > Bagavan in Geetha clearly says, " I am in everything but I

not

> > > that " .

> > > > Bagavan is in you but HE is not the body. Body functions as

per

> > > > Karmas but Bagavan remains witness. Gynaneswar moved walls

> > > (achetanam). The wall had the power of Bagavan but Bagavan is

> not

> > > wall. Prahlad showed Narashima (God) in a pillar but Bagavan

is

> > not

> > > that pillar.

> > > >

> > > > Simply understand this that GOD is Omnipresent and let your

> mind

> > > not

> > > > go too deep into sastras. Adi Sankara said that going deep

in

> > > Sastras you may offset yourself from GOD.

> > > >

> > > > Namaste

> > > >

> > > > B.Sathyanarayan

> > > >

> > > > -------------------------

> > > > Shree Hari

> > > > Ram Ram

> > > >

> > > > Seek help from God, by placing your mother in God's lap, and

> > > praying

> > > > to God, " Bhagavan - she is now Your responsibility. I am

> > unable

> > > to take care of the situation on my own. Only You can take

care

> of

> > > her. You have been doing so all along, but I have been

thinking

> > > that it is me. Please take what belongs to you back to you.

> You

> > > only take care of her, I cannot do it " In this manner,

> surrender

> > > her over to God and He will surely take care of her. You will

> see

> > > the magic as Pujya Swamiji has said on number of occasions.

In

> > the

> > > mean time continue to do all the necessary seva as if she

> belongs

> > to

> > > God and you are serving His people. It is no longer your

> problem,

> > > you are only serving God's people (not your mother). Be at

ease

> > and

> > > peace ! You will see the magic.

> > > >

> > > > A Sadhak

> > > > ----------------------------

-

> > > > parnaaams...

> > > >

> > > > dear Pratap Bhatt,

> > > >

> > > > please clarify few doubts....

> > > >

> > > > 1.If Atman is Universal Principal...after the death of a

> person..

> > > > why we Hindus practice Sharaads and other rituals to make

way

> > for

> > > the departed soul.for its easy passage....

> > > > 2.The Different Narkas as described in the Book Gruer

Purana..

> > > > is it merely Myth?... as Atman cannot be divided and

> > touched..who

> > > goes

> > > > through those Dark Worlds mentioned in the Book.

> > > > 3.you further wrote..our roles including dying as assigned

in

> > the

> > > script, which is written, directed, played and watched by

God

> > > through us! Roles are mortals but " we " who play these roles

> are

> > > One mortal Conscious Being.

> > > > If each and every event is predermmined, already written as

> our

> > > role...then when a person robs another, what is his fault ? as

> the

> > > script is already written ?

> > > >

> > > > What was God 's purpose of this Creation..if every thing He

> > > already wrote?

> > > >

> > > > Thanks..

> > > >

> > > > kuldip suri

> > > >

> > > > ----------------------------

--

> > > > , " sadhak_insight "

> > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

> > > > >

> > > > > Insightful answers are given already on this subject by

> > Sadhakas.

> > > > >

> > > > > I want to emphasize some points I see important.

> > > > >

> > > > > Many may still think and believe Atma is residing in

> individual

> > > > mind-

> > > > > body, existing separately in each. This is too simplistic

> view

> > if

> > > > > not properly investigated.

> > > > >

> > > > > Atman is ONE unique experience of Being which is also at

the

> > same

> > > > > time knowingness or Consciousness we all share. Just as

space

> > > > cannot

> > > > > be divided or corrupted by objects of the world,

> Consciousness,

> > > > > subtlest than space, cannot be divided, nor touched, nor

> > > > > differentiated as separate objects. Objects are perceived

by

> > > Atman

> > > > > and are also made up of the same vastue as Atman or

> > consciousness

> > > > we

> > > > > experience as thoughts or feelings creating apparant

> > separations

> > > > > among conceived objects. Upon inquiry one may discover

Atman

> > to

> > > be

> > > > > impersonal, infinite, ONE Wholeness, homogeneous in

nature.

> > This

> > > > is

> > > > > Absolute reality or Brahman. Atman is Brahman, proclaimed

> > > > > Upanishadic sages!

> > > > >

> > > > > Brahman appears diverse as nature with all sentient and

> > > insentient

> > > > > beings trigunatmik in nature. This is relative truth of

> > > everything

> > > > > that a mind can know. It is like a movie manifesting

> diversity

> > > > from

> > > > > ONE light of projector passing through films, or a dream

> > > > manifesting

> > > > > many objects in one mind.

> > > > >

> > > > > Once known for what it is, our true nature, this

> consciousness

> > of

> > > > > being is realized as eternal, immortal. Now the world of

> > > > relativity

> > > > > becomes leela or drama, so to speak. In such a play we

enjoy

> > > > playing

> > > > > our roles including dying as assigned in the script, which

is

> > > > > written, directed, played and watched by God through us!

> Roles

> > > > are

> > > > > mortals but " we " who play these roles are One immortal

> > Conscious

> > > > > Being.

> > > > >

> > > > > To play our roles in the drama in the best possible way is

> the

> > > > only

> > > > > thing we can do once we are convinced it is so! This is why

> > > > Pandavas

> > > > > killed Kauravas(bodies), and this is also why it is said

Yada

> > > > yadahi

> > > > > dharmasya.........

> > > > >

> > > > > In the play of Mahabharata Arjuna was enlightened by Lord,

> the

> > > > > supeme Consciousness!Kauravas played the roles of evil

> beings

> > and

> > > > > died in war and thus Dharma was restablished all per the

> > script.

> > > > >

> > > > > Namaskar......Pratap

> > > > > (Pratap Bhatt)

> > > > > --------------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > --

> > > > >

> > > > > , " sadhak_insight "

> > > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Shree Hari

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Ram Ram

> > > > > >

> > > > > > As Mr. Naga Narayanaji explained so beautifully that

this

> war

> > > > had

> > > > > to

> > > > > > be waged for the righteousness sake after exhausting all

> the

> > > > > > peaceful means to resolve the issues.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Also, as Nagaji pointed out that the weakness has been

> there

> > > all

> > > > > > along with the Hindus, they have not stood up to the

> occasion

> > > > when

> > > > > > they should have, while facing foreign invasions over

the

> > > years.

> > > > > > Perhaps they thought they would be doing Violence

(Himsa)

> if

> > > > they

> > > > > > fought back. Swami Vivekananda pounded this message of

> > > strength

> > > > > > again and again to wake up the Indian masses against the

> > > > > prevailing

> > > > > > lethargy and weakness.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > While in delusion, Arjuna too says in Gitaji (1-36):

> > > > > > " O Janaradana, what joy we can be derive by slaying the

> sons

> > > > of

> > > > > > Dhrtarastra, sin alone will accrue to us by killing

these

> > > > > felons " .

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Lord Krishna scolds Arjuna in Gitaji (2-33):

> > > > > > " Now, if you will not wage such a righteous war, then,

> > > > abandoning

> > > > > > your duty and losing your reputation, you will incur

sin " .

> > > > > >

> > > > > > An interesting question - is it really fair even to

raise a

> > > > doubt

> > > > > > about Pandvas killing Kaurvas in the Mahabharat war?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Few observations to ponder over:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > This was a Dharma Yudha fought in Kurukshetra which has

> been

> > > > > called

> > > > > > as a Dharma Kshetra, in the presence of Lord Himself,

who

> is

> > > the

> > > > > > protector and upholder of the Dharma. Would Lord Krishna

> not

> > > > stop

> > > > > > this war if He felt the war was not being faught for the

> > right

> > > > > > reasons.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > How would the mankind receive the marvelous message of

> > Gitaji

> > > if

> > > > > it

> > > > > > there were not the unique setting of this war.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Gitaji says it is not the actions which matter but

> motivation

> > > > > behind

> > > > > > them which is important. (Ref: Gitaji (18-17)

> > > > > > " He whose mind is free from self sense (egoism), and

whose

> > > > > > understanding is free from attachment, even though

slaying

> > > > all

> > > > > > these people, slays not, nor he is bound " .

> > > > > >

> > > > > > It is not the type of action which is critical but it is

> the

> > > > > > attitude with which actions are performed. (Ref: Gitaji

2-

> 38)

> > > > > > " Treating alike pleasure and pain, gain and loss,

victory

> and

> > > > > > defeat, get ready to fight, then, fighting thus you will

> not

> > > > incur

> > > > > > sin " .

> > > > > >

> > > > > > On Adhayatamic scale, the Mahabharat war represents the

> > warfare

> > > > > > which is going on everyday within all sadhakas and non-

> > sadhkas,

> > > > > the

> > > > > > good tendencies (small in number = 5) are fighting with

> the

> > bad

> > > > > > tendencies (larger in number =100). This war has to be

> fought

> > > > and

> > > > > > won if one wishes to pursue the spiritual path.

> > > > > > Ram Ram

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Humble pranam

> > > > > > Madan Kaura

> > > > > >

> > > > > > ------------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > --

> > > > --

> > > > > -

> > > > > > B.Sathyanarayan please clarify your message

> > > > > > Can one kill his / her mother even if she has become

> threat

> > to

> > > > > his /

> > > > > > her life OR life of other family members? (say she has

> gone

> > > mad)

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Jai Shri Krushna

> > > > > >

> > > > > > " hitsoftindia "

> > > > > > ------------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > --

> > > > --

> > > > > -

> > > > > > , " sadhak_insight "

> > > > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > One small correction. Duryodhan's father was

> > Dhritharashtra.

> > > > > > > G.Vaidyanathan

> > > > > > > ----------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > --

> > > > --

> > > > > --

> > > > > > -

> > > > > > > , " sadhak_insight "

> > > > > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Dear sadhaks,

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > you are right in your thinking.

> > > > > > > > Our scripts say -Death comes by accidents, by

> calamities-

> >

> > > by

> > > > > > other

> > > > > > > > living beings such as snake bite, by tiger killing

> human

> > > and

> > > > > > other

> > > > > > > > animals. Death comes by diseases based on one`s

> karma,

> > so

> > > > on.

> > > > > > > > Sastras are considered as pramanams. Sastra says

human

> > > > killing

> > > > > > > > another human is known as Brahma Hathi (Brahma

Dhosam)

> > > > > certainly

> > > > > > a

> > > > > > > > sin.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > But same scripts say- Killing some bad one to save a

> > > village

> > > > > is

> > > > > > NO

> > > > > > > > sin. Destroying a village and people is No sin to

save

> a

> > > big

> > > > > > town.

> > > > > > > > Destroying a town to save 10 towns is NO sin.

> Destroying

> > 10

> > > > > > towns

> > > > > > > to

> > > > > > > > save a big city (100 towns) is NO sin.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Killing some one causes sin (Brama Hathi). But that

> act

> > > done

> > > > > for

> > > > > > > the

> > > > > > > > good of society at large is called Dharma. That act

> > should

> > > > > never

> > > > > > > be

> > > > > > > > even 0.001% for selfish gains. Anything done for

> selfish

> > > > gain

> > > > > > > become

> > > > > > > > Paapa (sin). Anything done for selfless gain becomes

> > > Punnya.

> > > > > > > > Kauravas were so wicked, notorious, corrupted, they

did

> > > > > anything

> > > > > > > and

> > > > > > > > everything for their pleasures, not being mindful of

> > others

> > > > > > > > sufferings. They were given may opportunities to

> rectify

> > > > > > > themselves.

> > > > > > > > At end they remained the evil and had to be killed

for

> > > > > > maintaining

> > > > > > > > peace and dharma.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > When Pandavas were children, Duryodan (He) mixed

> poison

> > in

> > > > > > sweets

> > > > > > > > (Laddu) and gave to Bheema. Bheema Was saved. Later

He

> > > > wanted

> > > > > to

> > > > > > > kill

> > > > > > > > Pandavas, made a wax house for them to stay in and

soon

> > > > after

> > > > > > set

> > > > > > > > fire to it. Pandavas escaped through a tunnel.

Again

> he

> > > > > planned

> > > > > > > and

> > > > > > > > made Pandavas to gamble, took away their property,

> > disrobed

> > > > > > > Droupati,

> > > > > > > > sent them to exile. While they were in forest,

> Duryodana

> > > > > visited

> > > > > > > > adject forest to have Vana Bojana. Indra sent

> Gandarvas

> > to

> > > > > > arrest

> > > > > > > > Duryodana, Karna and others. Gandarvas tied them up

> and

> > was

> > > > > > > dragging.

> > > > > > > > The news went to Dharmaraja. Bheema felt happy, but

> > > > Dharmaraja

> > > > > > > said

> > > > > > > > to Arjuna to wage war with Gandarvas and release

> > > Duryodana's

> > > > > > > people.

> > > > > > > > Later when Pandavas were in Agnathavas, Duryodhan

> waged

> > war

> > > > > > > illegally

> > > > > > > > and lost the battle. Bagavan Krishna visited as

> > messenger

> > > to

> > > > > > > > pandavas, asked to compensate ONLY 5 villages to

> > Pandavas,

> > > > > > > Duryodana

> > > > > > > > refused saying that He will not give place as small

as

> a

> > > > > neddle

> > > > > > > > point. He again tried to rope up Bagavan and kill Sri

> > > > Krishna,

> > > > > > who

> > > > > > > > took Viswaroop and showed HIS might. Duryodana said

to

> > > > others

> > > > > > that

> > > > > > > > Viswaroop was magic/illusion.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Duryodana uppa Kathas (small incidents) show He was

> > wicked,

> > > > > > > > notorious, cunning, wreckless, dishonourable to

> parents

> > and

> > > > > > > elders,

> > > > > > > > womaniser, cheater etc. Therfore with heavy bad

deeds

> to

> > > His

> > > > > > > account

> > > > > > > > He had was given very long rope and then killed. One

> > stage

> > > > > > Bagavan

> > > > > > > > and Vithura asks Duryodhana, " Is it correct to do

all

> > these

> > > > > > sins " .

> > > > > > > > Duryodan replied, " I cannot help it though I know I

am

> > > doing

> > > > > > worst

> > > > > > > > sins " .

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Duryodana father Dukshasan was a bad man in earlier

> birth

> > > > > > blinding

> > > > > > > > crane birds. So he was born blind and senseless.

> > > > > > > > Such bad people Bagavan said that they are to be

> killed

> > by

> > > > > > Arjuna

> > > > > > > > (king) which is Arjuna's Dharma to safeguard

interests

> of

> > > > > > society

> > > > > > > at

> > > > > > > > large and also to establish Dharma on earth. Leaving

> and

> > > > > running

> > > > > > > away

> > > > > > > > is not king` s Karma Marg.

> > > > > > > > To Vudhava Bagavan said go to Badrinath and do Tapas,

> > > > because

> > > > > > > Vudhava

> > > > > > > > was fit for that as his gnana Marg

> > > > > > > > Namaste

> > > > > > > > B.Sathyanarayan

> > > > > > > > --------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > --

> > > > --

> > > > > --

> > > > > > --

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > , " sadhak_insight "

> > > > > > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Dear Learned Sadhaks

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Ram Ram

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > My 2nd question on Gitaji

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > All living persons have Atma (Gitaji)

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Atma is a part of GOD as I understand.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Therefore all living being are having a common

factor

> > > > called

> > > > > > God.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Can we communicate through this common factor

> > (Telepathy,

> > > > > mind

> > > > > > > > > reading, knowing that a person is good or bad and

so

> > on)

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Each person has God Consciousness(Narayana) in

> him/her

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Serving other person is serving God (Narayana).

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Why kill any living being?

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Why Pandvas should kill Kauravas?

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Please enlighten

> > > > > > > > > me

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Jai Sri Krishana

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Ramesh Kumar Suri

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > ------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > --

> > > > --

> > > > > > GITA

> > > > > > > > > TALK GROUP GUIDELINES:

> > > > > > > > > 1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas

clarify

> > their

> > > > > > doubts

> > > > > > > > > related to Gitaji shalokas. Therefore, responses

> which

> > > > > further

> > > > > > > > > clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be

> > posted.

> > > > > > > > > 2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other

> > > > > scriptures

> > > > > > to

> > > > > > > > > substantiate your response.

> > > > > > > > > 3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions,

beliefs

> > etc.

> > > > to

> > > > > > the

> > > > > > > > > extent that they further help in understanding the

> Gita

> > > > > shlokas

> > > > > > > > > 4. Please be as concise and to the point as

possible,

> > > > > > respecting

> > > > > > > > > sadhaka's time.

> > > > > > > > > 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at

hand

> > only.

> > > > > > > > > 6. Please do not include links to the other sites

or

> > > other

> > > > > > > > > organizations.

> > > > > > > > > 7. Kindly do not include your personal information

> > such

> > > as

> > > > > > phone

> > > > > > > > > number, address etc.

> > > > > > > > > 8. Please do not address the response to a

particular

> > > > > > individual

> > > > > > > > > since the message is going to the entire group.

> > > > > > > > > 9. Due to the large readership, all responses may

> not

> > be

> > > > > > posted.

> > > > > > > > > 10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the

> > posting,

> > > > if

> > > > > > > content

> > > > > > > > > is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to

the

> > > > group.

> > > > > > > > > 11. Please respond taking into consideration the

> > novices,

> > > > > > youth,

> > > > > > > > > westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit

the

> > use

> > > > to

> > > > > > > Sanskrit

> > > > > > > > > words only, rather provide the English word with

> > Sanskrit

> > > > > > > bracketed

> > > > > > > > > wherever possible.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > MODERATOR

> > > > > > > > > Ram Ram

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

June 6, 2008

Hari Om,

I am addressing the first question reg telepathy, mind reading etc

strictly as per guidelines ofModerator. Gitaji talks at many places

reg Jeeva being capable of becoming " all knowing " (sarvagya, sarva

vit). Gitaji also refers re the Jnana Yogi that he first sees all in

him and then himself in all. For Bhakti Yogi also " to see God

everywhere and in everyone " is dictum. Karma yogi also considers all

as part of one and serves one and all selflessly. God gives Jeeva a

status as equal as himself but the title " jeeva " then ceases. Now

this is the position. If God can have power of telepathy, mind

reading etc then you can also have that power. I have no doubt on

this.Even Patanjaliji Maharaj has listed telepathy etc as

a " siddhi " which can be acquired by practice of Yoga

That apart, but the counter question is where is the need for

Saadhak to acquire that power? As per question_ to know whether the

person is good or bad! But when God is existing in every one and you

are thinking of making him as medium then what kind of goodness or

evilness remains to be seen? When everything is God (Gitaji 7:19)

where is the possibility of bad or good being present anywhere, in

anybody?If you are good, your medium is good, then how can a soul

just like you, having same fundamentals like you can be bad? What

can you achieve by using mind reading etc. If you are good , the

entire universe is good, every iota of Brahmand is good? Why to use

God for that? To know somebody's mind. MIND! Mind which changes

every fraction of a second!

The second question! Why kill any living being? Or rather " Why not

to kill any living being " !

At the outset it actually does not matter from God's point of view

as to who is getting killed. All his children and the creation

is " immortal " from his point of view. That is why he doesnot object

directly or puts the things to a grinding halt even if you kill any

one of his creations including his most loved creation _ the holy

Cow! What to say of a human killing another! That is the God _

watching, tolerating, the action of one child vis-a-vis his another

child! But he maintains the record, he has his own method of

bringing the errant child to his senses! He can afford to wait, he

loves all equally. That is the point ofview of one element of the

trinity!

The second element is the one who got killed. Nobody can get killed

as per Gita! (Chapter 2). One who got killed in fact would never

regret after getting killed because in fact he has become purer! In

fact he has reaped what he sowed and is now debt free! He in fact is

the happiest among the three- though to the third party he may be

appearing to be the helpless victim! But that is between him and God

only. The butcher cannot draw any points out of it.The butcher is on

a totally different wicket( unless there are exceptional

circumstances- very rare circumstances- the kind of circumstances

which if God permits me to list / elaborate upon, I shall do so for

mutual benefit while addressing the Question no 3 of this subject

topic). But the one who suffered or got killed is definitely on the

rise, is definitely moving towards the north- there is no doubt on

this!

Now come to the murderer!What right he had to annihilate any

creature from this world? Did he create them? Was he nourishing or

feeding them?What harm those creatures caused to him? What was the

mistake made vis-a-vis him by the holy Cow or by. Fish or by a

chicken or by a lamb or by a pig? Just for fun? Just to satisfy the

demands of tongue? Just to settle scores with an enemy? Just to feed

the Ego or show power? " Don't you know who I am " - to prove this to

the world? To continue with what you have seen others as doing? If

you can kill why you should not kill? Taste! Everybody does it so I

should also?.God has made them for killing only and has made me

superior to them! All these arguments , thoughts are advocated. None

is valid! You had a licence of power, you misused that, you ignored

the basics of humanity and hence you will be stripped of your

powers! Did you ever realise what kind of pain the fish or chicken

or cow goes through? No - so now realise that ? How? Become that!

That is then becomes your fate! That is then becomes the dictum of

mother nature for you! That then becomes the punishment for you!

That is why you should not kill! Itb makes no difference to the God

or World or the victim- it makes difference to you!

Look at the type of difference the killng others can make to you?

You fall from the position of human being to the position of animal!

As a human being you could have gone to any heights - even become

God! But just to satisfy your tongue - you fell down to become an

animal! Surely now the tongue will be the centre of attraction!

Tongue as good as that of frog, as good as that of snake! As good as

that of Cuckoo! But what about you! That is why you should not kill

or motivate others to kill! He who gave you power to kill can also

take that power away from you and give the same power to that soul

whom you killed or to that soul who has been appointed by Him to

make you taste your own medicine! Be sure that when He does so, he

does with 100 times more intensity than what you did! He knows

better than you the principles of Maths and the principles of

interest calculation- simple, compound, and the rests of copounding

the interest- daily rest or monthly rests or the yearly rests!

Then where shall you be? That is why you should not kill! Don't

gfive the argument that you killed because some one hurt you! It

will not be accepted that easily. Be sure before giving that

argument as to whether you have never hurt anyone and what if he

also takes rhat stand!

Many times we take the stand that in this world if we don't kill say

chickens or say lambs , the world will be full of them. Many times

we say this world has got only one law- the strong wins and the weak

loses! How many think as to how and why this law came into being?

Who is that weak ? Why is he weak? Why is some one strong? What are

the duties of one who is strong? Who made them weak or strong? Why ?

Can you not be made weak??? One who made you strong and some one

else as weak - is He not powerful enough to turn the tables? That is

why you should not kill!

Saadhaks may give their arguments! They may ask as to whom the

father of Lord Rama, Dashratha, wanted actually to kill which act

ultimately resulted in death of Shravan Kumar! Saadhaks may ask as

to why the 100 sons of Mother Gandhari got killed? In the questions

itself the answers will be there!

As regards the argument that the world will be full of chickens or

of Holy Cows or of lambs or of goats or the argument that the ocean

will not have space if we don't eat away fish or prawns or lobsters-

must first count their numbers and take their census in the world

vis-a-vis the human beings, they must take into account their

respective roles in making this earth worth living vis-a-vis the

role of human beings and then see who is more essential!

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas, N B

-

, " sadhak_insight "

<sadhak_insight wrote:

>

> Shree Hari

> Ram Ram

>

> To All...

> Please kindly re-read the guidelines for this group and please

> kindly respond with (supporting Gita shlokas), limiting personal

> opinions, being concise and to the point and addressing the topic

at

> hand, and not calling out any specific sadhak's name . Thank you,

>

> From the Moderator

> Ram Ram

> -

>

> Hari Om !

>

> 1. Can we communicate through this common factor (Telepathy,

> mind reading, knowing that a person is good or bad and so on).

> Suppose we get a piece of mirror broken part from a bigger mirror

> which is being kept on the wall. The bigger mirror reflects very

> well because of its good quality and pure reception. It is being

> cleaned every day with a lot of care and so the reflection falling

> on it is very much clear.

>

> As regards to the piece broken from it, it is being ignored and

put

> it away as waste and no body do the dusting or cleaning of it. A

lot

> of dust accumulates on it and the reflection falling upon it is not

> at all clear due to the veil of dust.

>

> Our mind is like a broken piece of mirror from the Eternal Bigger

> one of the kind. It needs regular dusting for good quality

> performance. Imagine the amount of negative thoughts such as

hatred,

> envy, jealousy, anger, ego, etc., that flow through our mind

> unknowingly. They pollute our mind as the case of the dusty mirror.

> We need to regular cleansing of our mind to purify it so as to get

a

> pure reception from the eternal Consciousness. Unless our internal

> equipments (mind, intellect, etc.) are not purified, how can we

> expect good results from it? Suppose our mind is a polluted vessel,

> we are not going to benefit the milk or nectar which is poured in

> it. First we have to keep our inner equipments clean, and then

> whatever is poured in it is going to benefit us.

>

> When we are pure and regular in dhyana, our mind gets connected

with

> the collective minds in the Consciousness and we get intuitions,

> etc. We will be able to read others mind, by looking into their

> eyes, as eyes reflect the kind of feelings and thoughts they

> entertain in their mind.

>

> There is no need to know the other person whether good or bad. It

is

> we that need introspection as to what type of thoughts coming to

our

> mind and how to improve the quality of our thoughts. Direct our

> thoughts to the divine by different sadhanas prescribed by a

> Realized Guru or as per the Scriptures, then we get purified.

> Purification of our hearts should be for the realization of the

> Infinite and not for getting sidhis. God is greater than all kinds

> of sidhis. Once we get merged into the Divine, we no more need

> anything like telepathy, mind reading or the need to know others'

> minds.

>

> When a flower is bloomed, its fragrance attracts the bees and

> butterflies. It needs no advertisement. Bees and butterflies get

> attracted to it, which is standing still on the plant. When we get

> purified, good people naturally get attracted to the goodness in

us.

>

> If a person is bad or has committed great sins, even God is not

> ignoring him. He is getting all the blessings as other punyatmas

are

> getting. He gets oxygen to breath, water from the rains, sun light,

> everything as others do. Learned Sages do not consider any one papi

> even if they committed great sins. They find in him some good

> qualities that lie dormant in seed form in his mind, and they

> stimulate the dormant good qualities in him. So he gets evolved and

> purified. Likewise, we need not avoid any people, if we are

purified

> enough ourselves, people who have committing sins or whose actions

> are bad, get purified with our company (sat-sang).

>

> So there is no need to know the mind of others and trying to

correct

> them, but be a model for them to learn something from you.

>

> 2. Each person has God Consciousness(Narayana) in him/her

> Serving other person is serving God (Narayana).

> Why kill any living being?

> Why Pandvas should kill Kauravas?

>

> In Bhagawad Gita, Lord Krishna is not asking Arjuna to `Kill

> Kauravas', but to do it duty at the battle-field. A soldier is not

> killing the enemy soldiers. But just performing his duty as per the

> High Command. He is not killing them for his own selfish motive. He

> is saving his country.

>

> Suppose you are Arjuna, then Lord Krishna reminds you to do your

own

> duty wherever you are, and dedicate the results obtaining from them

> to surrender to God.

>

> Lord Krishna indirectly asking us keeping Arjuna as a model, to

> introspect ourselves. When Arjuna finds himself not capable of

> performing his duties, the skills he acquired all these years have

> gone mere waste. (Imagine a heart surgeon who is expert in his job,

> but gets worried and turns away from his duty, when he learns the

> patient in front of him is his own daughter). So Lord Krishna asks

> Arjuna to turn his attention towards his inner Self (to turn within

> and introspect himself). (What kind of thoughts that are coming and

> going in our mind, that type of personality we have. It is

said, " As

> the thoughts – so the mind, as the mind – so the actions, as the

> actions – so the character of the person " ). Then Arjuna saw there

> were innumerable negative thoughts in his mind (number hundred and

> thousand in Sanskrit denotes `many' and not the exact number

> mentioned) like the 100 Kauravas and the positive thoughts he

> entertained were only a handful (5 Pandavas). In order to become

> brave and confident to perform any karma. He had to eradicate all

> the negative thoughts that came on his way, and for that purpose

> Lord Krisha is asking him to eradicate the negative thoughts

> standing on his pathway (Kauravas) surrendering to the Lord the

> results of the karmas. When God is giving us everything, and making

> us an instrument, He is working through us, how can we be proud of

> our actions?

>

> Pranams,

> Vanaja Ravi Nair.

> -

-

> my humble parnaams !

> thanks for explaining ,replying to doubts raised by me.

> Bhagwat Gita, is the oceon of Knowldge, the dynamic spirituality

> Here and Now ... makes the Sadhak instruments of Krishna .

>

> As I understand, it is the force acting through the instruments of

> doer.. As all the instruments namly mind, body intellect, the frame

> of Mind through which the force is acting really belongs to

> Ishwara.. the instrument is mere nimatmatram..

>

> Regards to All sadhaks of this forum..

> thanks once again for bearing the ignorance of a ignorant child..

>

> humble servant..

> kuldip

> (Kuldip Suri)

>

> -

--

> , " sadhak_insight "

> <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> >

> > Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

> >

> > This is to clarify my understanding on Kuldipji's

> questions/doubts.

> > I am grateful for such opportunity.

> >

> > The teaching of Bhagwat Geeta is better understood in the

> > Upanishadic context as it is rightly called Krishna, a fit Gwala

> > (cowman) who has milked the cow of Upanaishadas and milk is

Geeta.

> >

> > Jivatma is translated as soul, under the spell of Maya, lives

with

> > the impressions of sanskaras, unfulfilled desires(vaasanas),

> > conditioned into believing and acting as a separate entity.

> >

> > It's as if space in the clay pot considers itself a separate

from

> > the universal space in ignorance! Or an ear-ring considering

> itself

> > an independent existence apart from Gold! This is perishable-

Kshar

> > residing as though in the body which is also perishable. So that

> > which is perishable cannot be the ultimate truth of Jivatma-

soul.

> > However, for explaining our ignorance, Krishna mentiones this

> > entity. This is what goes from body to body carrying with it

> > impressions of karmas, like air carrying foul smell or fragrance

> to

> > distances until exhausted and become free(pure). Hence in

> ignorance

> > or in dream it is felt as if soul is residing in the body

(meaning

> > limitations are superimposed by Jivatma on itself), but truth is

> > otherwise!

> >

> > Then Ishwara is Imperishable being of Jivatma, manifested Saguna

> > Brahman, not under the spell of Maya. These two entities are so-

> > called only but are really ONE, Jiva and Shiva or Jiva and

> Ishwara,

> > one being ignorance and the other being the reality or Kutastha

as

> > referred to body or any specific object's impersishable being

> > aspect! One can say Jiva is such a mixture of so called two!

> >

> > Now Pure Consciousness or Supreme Being is the substratum, so to

> > speak, for apparantly(not in reality when realization takes

place)

> > two entities to BE.

> >

> > We are really that Consciousness right now when we let go of our

> > ignorance of taking ourselves as limited by body-mind-intellect.

> We

> > can clearly see the stuff of all being is Consciousness, because

> we

> > experience all objects as mere perceptions/conceptions with

names

> > and forms existing in Consciousness as Consciousness! It is as

if

> we

> > wake up from the dream of ignorance. Then body is experienced

> being

> > in mind as perception of sensations, mind, in turn, experienced

> > being in Consciousness when thoughts are stirring. Here the mind

> is

> > really subtle body - perishable carrying the vaasanas-

impressions

> as

> > explained earlier in to next body.

> >

> > It is important to see that Krishna or Rishis are not validating

> the

> > Jivatma as reality of us, only an explanation or a model

depicting

> > our condition under the influence of Maya.

> >

> > We need to start seeing the truth that we are such Consciousness

> and

> > not give any credibility to that which is perishable! We were,

are

> > and will be Imperishable Consciousness or Awareness or Brhman,

> Pure

> > and ONE BEING of all beings.

> >

> > Please see this experiential reality of ourselves!

> >

> > Thus we explained the three purushas of the verses of Geeta:

> > Jivatma, Ishwara, Brahman.

> >

> > All of them point ultimately to ONE Experience of Conscious

Being

> > never to be denied during Waking, dreaming and sleeping states

of

> > our existence! After the body disintegrates into Bhutas, we are

> > still That which we were before and during the life, Eternal

Being!

> >

> > Namaskars... Pratap Bhatt

> >

> > --------------------------------

--

> -

> > , " sadhak_insight "

> > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Death and life is occuring everytime in our lives. At time of

> > > changes in residense from one city to another, the new VASA

is

> > like

> > > new born in a new environment. The word NiVAS or AVASA comes

> from

> > > VASA (under which) or VASANSI Jeernani ( old house). When one

> > > changes business place, or goes for studies in University,

> kicked

> > > out from a job, changed job for better job or taken

retirement,

> > and

> > > lives in forest, all these are rebirths, some are by choice

and

> > some

> > > by compulsons like accidents, suicides and diseases and

> > calamities,

> > > and some by samadhi. In all cases, individual is same but

> his/her

> > > environment and active worlds change. When individual moves

from

> > one

> > > place to another, then he carries most valuable assest that

> would

> > be

> > > needed at next life (new place). Similar is death, which is

very

> > far

> > > off journey and one needs to carry very litle information of

> great

> > > value.

> > >

> > > If one has so many houses, one in Delhi, one in Mumbai, one on

> NY,

> > > one in London and at all these places he has certain families

> > united

> > > and in love, then, the owner of these so many houses lives

where

> > he

> > > pleases, and not bound to maintain it because the occupants do

> it.

> > > Sri Krishna is that who has infinite houses and lives where he

> > > pleases and is not bound except by love. If for example, my

> mother

> > > who is like Sri Krishna has five houses in different cities

> built

> > by

> > > her five sons. And she is free to travel any where but chooses

> to

> > > live where she feels intense love and need. She is free from

> life

> > > and death because she is not owner of any house but lives in

all

> > > houses, and is taken care of, and free from attachment and

> > ahankaar.

> > > Sri Krishna is chtrazya (knower of ) all knowers (kstrazya).

> > > Regards

> > > K G

> > > (krishna gopal)

> > > ----------------------------

> > > Dear divine souls !!!!

> > >

> > > my humble parnaams to ALL.

> > >

> > > Pratap Bhai...you wrote in your previous mail..

> > >

> > > Many may still think and believe Atma is residing in

individual

> > mind-

> > > body, existing separately in each. This is too simplistic view

if

> > > not properly investigated..

> > >

> > > 1. if individual soul(jivatma) does not resides in individual

> > > natural person...then who brought sanskara and Karmic link of

> past

> > > Life to present Life..(If atma is considered universal

principal)

> > >

> > > 2.When a person dies which part of the Being take away all

> Karmic

> > > Acts of present Life to future births.. to prove my point i

am

> > > quoting few Verses of Gita Ji.

> > >

> > > Chapter 15. v16

> > > There are two purshas in the world,the immutable and the

> mutable;

> > > the mutable is all these existences the Kutastha is called

the

> > > immutable.

> > > 17.

> > > But other than these two is the highest spirit called the

> supereme

> > > Self,who enters the three worlds and upbears them, the

> > imperisahble

> > > Lord.

> > > 18

> > > Since I am beyond the mutable and am greater and higher even

> then

> > > the immutable in the world and in the Veda I am proclaimed as

> the

> > > Purshottama.

> > > here Gita clearly says..Kshare sarwani bhutani..

> > > all creatures are Many souls in the Cosmic Play. Each soul

> resides

> > > or is present in the natural personality which carry forward

the

> > > experienc of that Life to nextlife and take birth with new

> > > personality.

> > > the embodied soul (Jivatama) is purush is residing in the

Heart

> of

> > > all creatures..

> > > Ishwara sarwa bhutanbaaam hrideshe arjun tishtti..Iswara is

> > residing

> > > in the heart of all

> > > creatures (B.Gita)18.61

> > > If Jiva the sanatan Ansh(is)not residing in heart please

explain

> > > these verses.to clear doubts.. Why Sri Krishna used these

> words...

> > > The three purshas..namely...

> > > 1.Kshar....all these creatures(Many)

> > > 2.Akshar Bhrahman....nirgun nirakaarinactive Brahman.

> > > 3.Puroshottam..the supereme Brahman Sagun sawroop the

> > > Lord who is Controlling the world through His Shakti (Apara)

> > >

> > > looking forwards to find answers from ALL..

> > >

> > > kuldip suri

> > >

> > > ------------------------------

--

> -

> > > , " sadhak_insight "

> > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

> > > > I am grateful to Kuldipji for asking clarifying questions on

> > > answers

> > > > I shared on the subject.

> > > > At the time of death of a person, gross physical body

> > > disintegrates

> > > > into five universal elements(earth, water, fire, air, space)

> > just

> > > as

> > > > it was integrated from them at birth. Thus person was always

> > made

> > > > from these universal elements and never can survive as an

> > > individual

> > > > isolating him from the totality of being.

> > > > During his/her life, a person lives as if he/she is an

> > > independently

> > > > existing and separate from the totality of all beings. He is

> > > > conditioned by likes and dislikes, personal desires, genetic

> > > > conditioning, culture, traditions, society, education, etc.

> and

> > > > acquires vaasanas, subtle tendencies. Such traits form his

> subtle

> > > > (sukshma) body. A person is controlled/driven by this subtle

> > body,

> > > > called body of ignorance consisting of past memory, personal

> > > > history, thoughts and feelings. This is the result of Atma-

> > > > Consciousness identifying itself with this subtle body we

> > > generally

> > > > call soul. Such a soul departs upon death to merge with

> > universal

> > > > subtle body made of collective ignorance of all. From such

> > > > ignorance, new bodies are born, ignorance being the life as

> > > separate

> > > > ego in separate body. This is just a belief not investigated.

> > > > Thus the cycle of birth and death which goes on until

> > realization

> > > > happens to that person in some life span, that he/she was

> never

> > > such

> > > > a person bound in body-mind organism. He was always

limitless

> > > Atman,

> > > > pure and undivided Consciousness ever existent and universal

> > > > Reality. Everything, sentients and insentients are within

Him,

> > > > meaning in Consciousness He is. Now we can answer questions

> > > raised

> > > > here.

> > > > 1)Shraaddh is performed for departed soul so that his/her

> subtle

> > > > body may find some peace on its onward journey and shed its

> > > bondage

> > > > to some degree. This however becomes rituals on the part of

> > those

> > > > who perform it due to their own ignorance. But it has some

> value

> > > for

> > > > those who perform with shraddha and humility and good will

for

> > the

> > > > departed.

> > > >

> > > > 2) As explained, it is the subtle body of ignorance of not

> > > realizing

> > > > its true nature that goes through narakas as if such bodies

> are

> > > > being recycled back to life to give another chance to

realize

> > the

> > > > true universality of Atman that He is, which is never bound

in

> > the

> > > > body in the first place.

> > > >

> > > > 3) As long as we live our lives with this separation called

> ego

> > > and

> > > > consider us doers of our deeds, we are bound by ignorance

into

> > > such

> > > > thinking and suffering along the way. When such a person

> > realizes

> > > > his true self as Consciousness, Absolute existence Itself,

> > running

> > > > the show through his body-mind instrument, he/she is free to

> > play

> > > > whatever role he/she is assigned by Divine Consciousness.

> Until

> > > such

> > > > time this happens he lives as if in a dream world. TO wake

up

> > from

> > > > such a dream is to live in Bliss! Then as body-mind persons

we

> > > > just play our roles in a drama/dream but never suffer while

> > > playing

> > > > the roles.

> > > >

> > > > We are always free from predetermined-destiny as such

> > > Consciousness.

> > > > However, it may appear to a person who is ignorant of

his/her

> > > > universality as if bound in such roles. Our immortality is

in

> > > taking

> > > > our true stand and lving as Consciousness-Atman while our

body

> > is

> > > > mortal, and incidental for playing role.

> > > >

> > > > 4) God has no plan, just celebration of life through all

> > creation

> > > > which He Himself Is! We can realize the truth in this life

if

> we

> > > > long for such knowledge intensely. When we do, our

questions

> > > > disappear leaving us fulfilled, in our Bliss. Then, who is

> there

> > > to

> > > > ask questions as to what is the purpose of this creation? It

> is

> > > God-

> > > > Atma-Brahman all the way in celebration!

> > > >

> > > > Once again, we are always free from destiny as Atman, always

> > > taking

> > > > right actions in the moment for greater good. But if we

think

> > > > ourselves to be individual ego then we are controlled by

world

> > > > around us, by destiny as our Conditioning!

> > > > If we live as universal Consciousness-Atman, we can never

rob

> > > > another person. Our role is to be responsible for the

entire

> > > > universe! Only as individual " me " based person may rob

another

> > one.

> > > > Pratap hoping this helps!

> > > >

> > > > (Pratap Bhatt)

> > > > ----------------------------

--

> --

> > -

> > > >

> > > > Dear Sadak,

> > > > In Bhagavath Geetha, Bhagavan describes a character as " Guna

> > > > Theethan " . This person lives very calm, whatever may come

and

> > > > whatever may happen. He does NOT ask for God`s help. He

never

> > gets

> > > > perturbed by happiness or sorrow. He never asks anything

even

> if

> > I

> > > > (Bhagavan) appears to give him with a boon. I (Bhagavan)

likes

> > > such

> > > > a devotee, very much.

> > > > Refering a sadak writing below: Guna Theethan knows that it

is

> > > God`s

> > > > responsibility and never wants to disturb God. He knows that

> God

> > > was

> > > > always caring and will always care. He himself has

surrendered

> > to

> > > > God. He sees no difference if magic happens or death takes

> > > place.

> > > > He serves but does not think he is serving God` s people as

he

> > has

> > > > removed that- I & Mine.

> > > > If one should think he is serving then the phala Karma

(action

> > of

> > > > serving) goes to that person. If one serves without any

> thought,

> > > > then the pala goes to Bhagavan.

> > > > Naradha thought that why people are not saying, Narayana. He

> was

> > > > made to realise through a Brahmin who never said Narayana.

> > > Referance

> > > > Padma Puranam. Sathybama thought she was serving Bhagavan.

She

> > was

> > > > made to realise through Sri Krishna Thulabaaram. Bheema

> thought

> > he

> > > > was mighter before Krishna and was made to realise that

Bheema

> > was

> > > > unable to lift even a monkey's (Sri Hanuman in disguise)

tail.

> > > > Referance Maha Bharatham.

> > > >

> > > > Sadaks-- Bagavan is " SERVAGNIYAM- SERVASATHAN " . HE gave

mother

> > > > devaki all 7 children killed by Kans. HE gave HIS guru

> Sandeepan

> > > his

> > > > son who died long before.

> > > > Sadaks--This does not mean we can ask and HE will give. HE

> knows

> > > > what to give.

> > > >

> > > > Let us all be like Guna Theethan (by His grace)

> > > > B.Sathyanarayan

> > > >

> > > > ----------------------------

--

> --

> > -

> > > > , " sadhak_insight "

> > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > Dear Sadaks and " hitsoftindia "

> > > > >

> > > > > Mother (Maatha), Father (Phitta), Spiritual Guide (Guru)

and

> > > > Deivam.

> > > > > Maatha is the first step on earth, Pittha 2nd education,

> Guru

> > 3rd

> > > > > step to Gynana marg 3rd step and Deivam (God) 4th step

final

> to

> > > > > Moksha. Ultimate goal of any living form is Liberation. So

> > > mother,

> > > > > father and Guru has been with us in several births. But we

> > > continue

> > > > > this cycle of birth and death without reaching divinity.

> > Parents

> > > > and

> > > > > Guru have their limitations. But God is unlimited. To

reach

> the

> > > > > stage of Dharma you need virtuous actions (Karmas).

> > > > >

> > > > > Examples: Harischandra was to behead his wife. Viswamitra

> > stopped

> > > > > and praised the dharmic act. Sandikeswarar (a famous

Shiva

> > > > Devotee)

> > > > > he regularly used to do abishek to Bagavan Shiva made by

> > himself

> > > > out

> > > > > of sand. His father got angry on that act and rushed to

kick

> > the

> > > > > sand mould (Shiva) on which Sandikeswarar was pouring

milk.

> > When

> > > > the

> > > > > Son hit his father`s leg with Dharba (holy dry grass), the

> > > father's

> > > > > leg was chopped off. Realisation took place.

> > > > >

> > > > > Yudhistera was asked by Yeksha to take a boon to save one

of

> > his

> > > > four

> > > > > brothers who was lying dead. Yudhistra asked for the

> youngest.

> > > > > Yaksha asked to Yudistra why he has not opted for Arjuna

or

> > > Bheema

> > > > > who could be helpful in war. Yudhistra said he is there to

> do

> > > last

> > > > > rights of his mother, but if Shahadev is not brought to

life

> > > there

> > > > > is no one to do last rights of his mother. Besides asking

for

> > > > > Arjuna/Bheema, would be a selfish act.

> > > > >

> > > > > If mother should go Mad, then it is son` s duty to take

her

> > away

> > > > > from society and live with her. But if mother becomes

threat

> to

> > > > > son/daughter life, and society at large, then one needs to

> do

> > > what

> > > > > is beneficial and less harmful to more people at large.

> > > > >

> > > > > Bagavan Parasuram one of the 10 Avathar had chopped of his

> > > mother`

> > > > s

> > > > > head just to abide by his father` s order. Later his

father

> > very

> > > > > satisfied asked Parasuram what boon he wanted. Parasuram

> asked

> > > his

> > > > > father that to return his mother back to life. 1st Matha

> > Vakiyam

> > > > > Paripalanam, next higher step father Vakiyam, next Guru

> > Vakiyam,

> > > > and

> > > > > highest is obeying GOD`S words without asking any question.

> > > > >

> > > > > Example: During war in Kurushetra, Bagavan says to

> > Yudistara, "

> > > to

> > > > > shout out that Ashvadhama died " . Yudistatra refused to say

> lie.

> > > > > Bagavan asks Bheema to kill an elephant called Ashwadhama.

> > Bheema

> > > > > kills the elephant without any question even in mind. Then

> > > sadhaks

> > > > > you all know what happened.

> > > > >

> > > > > Much later when Pandavas die, Yudhistara meets Sri Krishna

in

> > > > > heavens. Bheema was in heaven before Yudhisthir.

> > > > > Yudhistara asks Sri Krishna why Bheema was first?

Bagavan

> > says,

> > > > > Bheema did what I (BHagavan) said without questioning, but

> you

> > > > > Yudhistara you only did what you were asked to say, only

> after

> > > > > questioning.

> > > > >

> > > > > Taken from the perspective of " Vasudeva Sarvam " , the one

> being

> > > > killed and one performing the act of killing are the same

> Sriman

> > > > Narayana.

> > > > >

> > > > > Bagavan in Geetha clearly says, " I am in everything but I

> not

> > > > that " .

> > > > > Bagavan is in you but HE is not the body. Body functions

as

> per

> > > > > Karmas but Bagavan remains witness. Gynaneswar moved

walls

> > > > (achetanam). The wall had the power of Bagavan but Bagavan

is

> > not

> > > > wall. Prahlad showed Narashima (God) in a pillar but Bagavan

> is

> > > not

> > > > that pillar.

> > > > >

> > > > > Simply understand this that GOD is Omnipresent and let

your

> > mind

> > > > not

> > > > > go too deep into sastras. Adi Sankara said that going deep

> in

> > > > Sastras you may offset yourself from GOD.

> > > > >

> > > > > Namaste

> > > > >

> > > > > B.Sathyanarayan

> > > > >

> > > > > -------------------------

> > > > > Shree Hari

> > > > > Ram Ram

> > > > >

> > > > > Seek help from God, by placing your mother in God's lap,

and

> > > > praying

> > > > > to God, " Bhagavan - she is now Your responsibility. I am

> > > unable

> > > > to take care of the situation on my own. Only You can take

> care

> > of

> > > > her. You have been doing so all along, but I have been

> thinking

> > > > that it is me. Please take what belongs to you back to

you.

> > You

> > > > only take care of her, I cannot do it " In this manner,

> > surrender

> > > > her over to God and He will surely take care of her. You

will

> > see

> > > > the magic as Pujya Swamiji has said on number of occasions.

> In

> > > the

> > > > mean time continue to do all the necessary seva as if she

> > belongs

> > > to

> > > > God and you are serving His people. It is no longer your

> > problem,

> > > > you are only serving God's people (not your mother). Be at

> ease

> > > and

> > > > peace ! You will see the magic.

> > > > >

> > > > > A Sadhak

> > > > > --------------------------

--

> -

> > > > > parnaaams...

> > > > >

> > > > > dear Pratap Bhatt,

> > > > >

> > > > > please clarify few doubts....

> > > > >

> > > > > 1.If Atman is Universal Principal...after the death of a

> > person..

> > > > > why we Hindus practice Sharaads and other rituals to make

> way

> > > for

> > > > the departed soul.for its easy passage....

> > > > > 2.The Different Narkas as described in the Book Gruer

> Purana..

> > > > > is it merely Myth?... as Atman cannot be divided and

> > > touched..who

> > > > goes

> > > > > through those Dark Worlds mentioned in the Book.

> > > > > 3.you further wrote..our roles including dying as assigned

> in

> > > the

> > > > script, which is written, directed, played and watched by

> God

> > > > through us! Roles are mortals but " we " who play these

roles

> > are

> > > > One mortal Conscious Being.

> > > > > If each and every event is predermmined, already written

as

> > our

> > > > role...then when a person robs another, what is his fault ?

as

> > the

> > > > script is already written ?

> > > > >

> > > > > What was God 's purpose of this Creation..if every thing

He

> > > > already wrote?

> > > > >

> > > > > Thanks..

> > > > >

> > > > > kuldip suri

> > > > >

> > > > > --------------------------

--

> --

> > > > > , " sadhak_insight "

> > > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Insightful answers are given already on this subject by

> > > Sadhakas.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I want to emphasize some points I see important.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Many may still think and believe Atma is residing in

> > individual

> > > > > mind-

> > > > > > body, existing separately in each. This is too

simplistic

> > view

> > > if

> > > > > > not properly investigated.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Atman is ONE unique experience of Being which is also at

> the

> > > same

> > > > > > time knowingness or Consciousness we all share. Just as

> space

> > > > > cannot

> > > > > > be divided or corrupted by objects of the world,

> > Consciousness,

> > > > > > subtlest than space, cannot be divided, nor touched, nor

> > > > > > differentiated as separate objects. Objects are

perceived

> by

> > > > Atman

> > > > > > and are also made up of the same vastue as Atman or

> > > consciousness

> > > > > we

> > > > > > experience as thoughts or feelings creating apparant

> > > separations

> > > > > > among conceived objects. Upon inquiry one may discover

> Atman

> > > to

> > > > be

> > > > > > impersonal, infinite, ONE Wholeness, homogeneous in

> nature.

> > > This

> > > > > is

> > > > > > Absolute reality or Brahman. Atman is Brahman, proclaimed

> > > > > > Upanishadic sages!

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Brahman appears diverse as nature with all sentient and

> > > > insentient

> > > > > > beings trigunatmik in nature. This is relative truth of

> > > > everything

> > > > > > that a mind can know. It is like a movie manifesting

> > diversity

> > > > > from

> > > > > > ONE light of projector passing through films, or a dream

> > > > > manifesting

> > > > > > many objects in one mind.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Once known for what it is, our true nature, this

> > consciousness

> > > of

> > > > > > being is realized as eternal, immortal. Now the world of

> > > > > relativity

> > > > > > becomes leela or drama, so to speak. In such a play we

> enjoy

> > > > > playing

> > > > > > our roles including dying as assigned in the script,

which

> is

> > > > > > written, directed, played and watched by God through

us!

> > Roles

> > > > > are

> > > > > > mortals but " we " who play these roles are One immortal

> > > Conscious

> > > > > > Being.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > To play our roles in the drama in the best possible way

is

> > the

> > > > > only

> > > > > > thing we can do once we are convinced it is so! This is

why

> > > > > Pandavas

> > > > > > killed Kauravas(bodies), and this is also why it is said

> Yada

> > > > > yadahi

> > > > > > dharmasya.........

> > > > > >

> > > > > > In the play of Mahabharata Arjuna was enlightened by

Lord,

> > the

> > > > > > supeme Consciousness!Kauravas played the roles of evil

> > beings

> > > and

> > > > > > died in war and thus Dharma was restablished all per the

> > > script.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Namaskar......Pratap

> > > > > > (Pratap Bhatt)

> > > > > > ------------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > --

> > > > --

> > > > > >

> > > > > > , " sadhak_insight "

> > > > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Shree Hari

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Ram Ram

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > As Mr. Naga Narayanaji explained so beautifully that

> this

> > war

> > > > > had

> > > > > > to

> > > > > > > be waged for the righteousness sake after exhausting

all

> > the

> > > > > > > peaceful means to resolve the issues.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Also, as Nagaji pointed out that the weakness has been

> > there

> > > > all

> > > > > > > along with the Hindus, they have not stood up to the

> > occasion

> > > > > when

> > > > > > > they should have, while facing foreign invasions over

> the

> > > > years.

> > > > > > > Perhaps they thought they would be doing Violence

> (Himsa)

> > if

> > > > > they

> > > > > > > fought back. Swami Vivekananda pounded this message

of

> > > > strength

> > > > > > > again and again to wake up the Indian masses against

the

> > > > > > prevailing

> > > > > > > lethargy and weakness.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > While in delusion, Arjuna too says in Gitaji (1-36):

> > > > > > > " O Janaradana, what joy we can be derive by slaying

the

> > sons

> > > > > of

> > > > > > > Dhrtarastra, sin alone will accrue to us by killing

> these

> > > > > > felons " .

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Lord Krishna scolds Arjuna in Gitaji (2-33):

> > > > > > > " Now, if you will not wage such a righteous war, then,

> > > > > abandoning

> > > > > > > your duty and losing your reputation, you will incur

> sin " .

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > An interesting question - is it really fair even to

> raise a

> > > > > doubt

> > > > > > > about Pandvas killing Kaurvas in the Mahabharat war?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Few observations to ponder over:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > This was a Dharma Yudha fought in Kurukshetra which

has

> > been

> > > > > > called

> > > > > > > as a Dharma Kshetra, in the presence of Lord Himself,

> who

> > is

> > > > the

> > > > > > > protector and upholder of the Dharma. Would Lord

Krishna

> > not

> > > > > stop

> > > > > > > this war if He felt the war was not being faught for

the

> > > right

> > > > > > > reasons.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > How would the mankind receive the marvelous message of

> > > Gitaji

> > > > if

> > > > > > it

> > > > > > > there were not the unique setting of this war.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Gitaji says it is not the actions which matter but

> > motivation

> > > > > > behind

> > > > > > > them which is important. (Ref: Gitaji (18-17)

> > > > > > > " He whose mind is free from self sense (egoism), and

> whose

> > > > > > > understanding is free from attachment, even though

> slaying

> > > > > all

> > > > > > > these people, slays not, nor he is bound " .

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > It is not the type of action which is critical but it

is

> > the

> > > > > > > attitude with which actions are performed. (Ref:

Gitaji

> 2-

> > 38)

> > > > > > > " Treating alike pleasure and pain, gain and loss,

> victory

> > and

> > > > > > > defeat, get ready to fight, then, fighting thus you

will

> > not

> > > > > incur

> > > > > > > sin " .

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > On Adhayatamic scale, the Mahabharat war represents

the

> > > warfare

> > > > > > > which is going on everyday within all sadhakas and non-

> > > sadhkas,

> > > > > > the

> > > > > > > good tendencies (small in number = 5) are fighting

with

> > the

> > > bad

> > > > > > > tendencies (larger in number =100). This war has to be

> > fought

> > > > > and

> > > > > > > won if one wishes to pursue the spiritual path.

> > > > > > > Ram Ram

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Humble pranam

> > > > > > > Madan Kaura

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > ----------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > --

> > > > --

> > > > > --

> > > > > > -

> > > > > > > B.Sathyanarayan please clarify your message

> > > > > > > Can one kill his / her mother even if she has become

> > threat

> > > to

> > > > > > his /

> > > > > > > her life OR life of other family members? (say she has

> > gone

> > > > mad)

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Jai Shri Krushna

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > " hitsoftindia "

> > > > > > > ----------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > --

> > > > --

> > > > > --

> > > > > > -

> > > > > > > , " sadhak_insight "

> > > > > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > One small correction. Duryodhan's father was

> > > Dhritharashtra.

> > > > > > > > G.Vaidyanathan

> > > > > > > > --------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > --

> > > > --

> > > > > --

> > > > > > --

> > > > > > > -

> > > > > > > > , " sadhak_insight "

> > > > > > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Dear sadhaks,

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > you are right in your thinking.

> > > > > > > > > Our scripts say -Death comes by accidents, by

> > calamities-

> > >

> > > > by

> > > > > > > other

> > > > > > > > > living beings such as snake bite, by tiger killing

> > human

> > > > and

> > > > > > > other

> > > > > > > > > animals. Death comes by diseases based on one`s

> > karma,

> > > so

> > > > > on.

> > > > > > > > > Sastras are considered as pramanams. Sastra says

> human

> > > > > killing

> > > > > > > > > another human is known as Brahma Hathi (Brahma

> Dhosam)

> > > > > > certainly

> > > > > > > a

> > > > > > > > > sin.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > But same scripts say- Killing some bad one to save

a

> > > > village

> > > > > > is

> > > > > > > NO

> > > > > > > > > sin. Destroying a village and people is No sin to

> save

> > a

> > > > big

> > > > > > > town.

> > > > > > > > > Destroying a town to save 10 towns is NO sin.

> > Destroying

> > > 10

> > > > > > > towns

> > > > > > > > to

> > > > > > > > > save a big city (100 towns) is NO sin.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Killing some one causes sin (Brama Hathi). But

that

> > act

> > > > done

> > > > > > for

> > > > > > > > the

> > > > > > > > > good of society at large is called Dharma. That

act

> > > should

> > > > > > never

> > > > > > > > be

> > > > > > > > > even 0.001% for selfish gains. Anything done for

> > selfish

> > > > > gain

> > > > > > > > become

> > > > > > > > > Paapa (sin). Anything done for selfless gain

becomes

> > > > Punnya.

> > > > > > > > > Kauravas were so wicked, notorious, corrupted,

they

> did

> > > > > > anything

> > > > > > > > and

> > > > > > > > > everything for their pleasures, not being mindful

of

> > > others

> > > > > > > > > sufferings. They were given may opportunities to

> > rectify

> > > > > > > > themselves.

> > > > > > > > > At end they remained the evil and had to be killed

> for

> > > > > > > maintaining

> > > > > > > > > peace and dharma.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > When Pandavas were children, Duryodan (He) mixed

> > poison

> > > in

> > > > > > > sweets

> > > > > > > > > (Laddu) and gave to Bheema. Bheema Was saved.

Later

> He

> > > > > wanted

> > > > > > to

> > > > > > > > kill

> > > > > > > > > Pandavas, made a wax house for them to stay in and

> soon

> > > > > after

> > > > > > > set

> > > > > > > > > fire to it. Pandavas escaped through a tunnel.

> Again

> > he

> > > > > > planned

> > > > > > > > and

> > > > > > > > > made Pandavas to gamble, took away their property,

> > > disrobed

> > > > > > > > Droupati,

> > > > > > > > > sent them to exile. While they were in forest,

> > Duryodana

> > > > > > visited

> > > > > > > > > adject forest to have Vana Bojana. Indra sent

> > Gandarvas

> > > to

> > > > > > > arrest

> > > > > > > > > Duryodana, Karna and others. Gandarvas tied them

up

> > and

> > > was

> > > > > > > > dragging.

> > > > > > > > > The news went to Dharmaraja. Bheema felt happy, but

> > > > > Dharmaraja

> > > > > > > > said

> > > > > > > > > to Arjuna to wage war with Gandarvas and release

> > > > Duryodana's

> > > > > > > > people.

> > > > > > > > > Later when Pandavas were in Agnathavas, Duryodhan

> > waged

> > > war

> > > > > > > > illegally

> > > > > > > > > and lost the battle. Bagavan Krishna visited as

> > > messenger

> > > > to

> > > > > > > > > pandavas, asked to compensate ONLY 5 villages to

> > > Pandavas,

> > > > > > > > Duryodana

> > > > > > > > > refused saying that He will not give place as

small

> as

> > a

> > > > > > neddle

> > > > > > > > > point. He again tried to rope up Bagavan and kill

Sri

> > > > > Krishna,

> > > > > > > who

> > > > > > > > > took Viswaroop and showed HIS might. Duryodana

said

> to

> > > > > others

> > > > > > > that

> > > > > > > > > Viswaroop was magic/illusion.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Duryodana uppa Kathas (small incidents) show He

was

> > > wicked,

> > > > > > > > > notorious, cunning, wreckless, dishonourable to

> > parents

> > > and

> > > > > > > > elders,

> > > > > > > > > womaniser, cheater etc. Therfore with heavy bad

> deeds

> > to

> > > > His

> > > > > > > > account

> > > > > > > > > He had was given very long rope and then killed.

One

> > > stage

> > > > > > > Bagavan

> > > > > > > > > and Vithura asks Duryodhana, " Is it correct to do

> all

> > > these

> > > > > > > sins " .

> > > > > > > > > Duryodan replied, " I cannot help it though I know

I

> am

> > > > doing

> > > > > > > worst

> > > > > > > > > sins " .

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Duryodana father Dukshasan was a bad man in

earlier

> > birth

> > > > > > > blinding

> > > > > > > > > crane birds. So he was born blind and senseless.

> > > > > > > > > Such bad people Bagavan said that they are to be

> > killed

> > > by

> > > > > > > Arjuna

> > > > > > > > > (king) which is Arjuna's Dharma to safeguard

> interests

> > of

> > > > > > > society

> > > > > > > > at

> > > > > > > > > large and also to establish Dharma on earth.

Leaving

> > and

> > > > > > running

> > > > > > > > away

> > > > > > > > > is not king` s Karma Marg.

> > > > > > > > > To Vudhava Bagavan said go to Badrinath and do

Tapas,

> > > > > because

> > > > > > > > Vudhava

> > > > > > > > > was fit for that as his gnana Marg

> > > > > > > > > Namaste

> > > > > > > > > B.Sathyanarayan

> > > > > > > > > ------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > --

> > > > --

> > > > > --

> > > > > > --

> > > > > > > --

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > , " sadhak_insight "

> > > > > > > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Dear Learned Sadhaks

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Ram Ram

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > My 2nd question on Gitaji

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > All living persons have Atma (Gitaji)

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Atma is a part of GOD as I understand.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Therefore all living being are having a common

> factor

> > > > > called

> > > > > > > God.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Can we communicate through this common factor

> > > (Telepathy,

> > > > > > mind

> > > > > > > > > > reading, knowing that a person is good or bad

and

> so

> > > on)

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Each person has God Consciousness(Narayana) in

> > him/her

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Serving other person is serving God (Narayana).

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Why kill any living being?

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Why Pandvas should kill Kauravas?

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Please enlighten

> > > > > > > > > > me

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Jai Sri Krishana

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Ramesh Kumar Suri

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > ----------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > --

> > > > --

> > > > > --

> > > > > > > GITA

> > > > > > > > > > TALK GROUP GUIDELINES:

> > > > > > > > > > 1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas

> clarify

> > > their

> > > > > > > doubts

> > > > > > > > > > related to Gitaji shalokas. Therefore, responses

> > which

> > > > > > further

> > > > > > > > > > clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only

be

> > > posted.

> > > > > > > > > > 2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or

other

> > > > > > scriptures

> > > > > > > to

> > > > > > > > > > substantiate your response.

> > > > > > > > > > 3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions,

> beliefs

> > > etc.

> > > > > to

> > > > > > > the

> > > > > > > > > > extent that they further help in understanding

the

> > Gita

> > > > > > shlokas

> > > > > > > > > > 4. Please be as concise and to the point as

> possible,

> > > > > > > respecting

> > > > > > > > > > sadhaka's time.

> > > > > > > > > > 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at

> hand

> > > only.

> > > > > > > > > > 6. Please do not include links to the other

sites

> or

> > > > other

> > > > > > > > > > organizations.

> > > > > > > > > > 7. Kindly do not include your personal

information

> > > such

> > > > as

> > > > > > > phone

> > > > > > > > > > number, address etc.

> > > > > > > > > > 8. Please do not address the response to a

> particular

> > > > > > > individual

> > > > > > > > > > since the message is going to the entire group.

> > > > > > > > > > 9. Due to the large readership, all responses

may

> > not

> > > be

> > > > > > > posted.

> > > > > > > > > > 10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the

> > > posting,

> > > > > if

> > > > > > > > content

> > > > > > > > > > is unclear or not appropriate for distribution

to

> the

> > > > > group.

> > > > > > > > > > 11. Please respond taking into consideration the

> > > novices,

> > > > > > > youth,

> > > > > > > > > > westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit

> the

> > > use

> > > > > to

> > > > > > > > Sanskrit

> > > > > > > > > > words only, rather provide the English word with

> > > Sanskrit

> > > > > > > > bracketed

> > > > > > > > > > wherever possible.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > MODERATOR

> > > > > > > > > > Ram Ram

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

June 9, 2008

Namaste,

Based on your following arguments, any killing per se is bad and

sinful which eventually results in bad 'karmik' fruits in the

subsequent life of that 'Jiva'. I have the following questions:

1. The background of Gitaji is the lurking war between the two

cousins. Arjuna offers more or less the same argument to Bhagawan

Krishna as you have offered about the killing of fellow beings on

the battle field. Krishna counters Arjun's argument that it is

Arjun's duty to fight the war because the 'Adharmik' forces are

trying to destroy the 'Dharma'. Krishna gives several reasons as to

why Arjun must fight even if it means killing thousands of people in

the battle. How do you reconcile your arguments with Krishna's

central message to fight 'adharma'?

Pranam,

siaram

------------------------------

Dear Sadaks,

Was Kans able to kill baby Krishna? Was Hiranyaksh able to kill

Prahalad? Was tribols able to kill Jada Bharat? Was the butcher able

to kill Adi Sankara? etc. There are so many. Sadhaks please note

all the above divine persons offered themselves without any

resistance to be killed. But what happened all of you know. How come

they are saved? Can anyone understand this concept? Why so many

people were targeted point blank, but escaped ? Why so many

survived intact even after 40 days under debris due to earth quake?

With much advanced medical science some cases became cured without

medical help? 80 years old man with heart failing at AIMS hospital

was not treated due to age factor. His body developed new arteries

and veins and the man lived 10 years more? Famous Malar hospital in

Chennai whose director died with all medical needs at his command?

Sadhaks I personally feel that stop pondering over this subject as

you going to die any time amidst natural calamities, enemies,

accidents etc. Ekanathji said, " I live today knowing tomorrow is

not mine " . Living with hope that one will live next few weeks is in

Maya. Then one has lost extremely valuable human life in only asking

questions, but NOT doing Sadhana of Bhagavath Samaranam.

Life span is definitely insufficient to know all things on earth.

But life span is surely enough to reach Bhagavan. Parikshit attained

moksha in seven days. Was he pondering over his situation? Another

saint attained Moksha in 3 days listening upadesh from saint Asta

Vakra.

Seeing the world you are entangling yourself in maya. Seeing only

Bhagavan (God) is surrender. One will be raising one question, " why

killing " . But that leads to thousands of thoughts, questions and

ultimately one remains where it started. Please concentrate on this

point and understand.

B.Sathyanarayan

-------------------------------

, " sadhak_insight "

<sadhak_insight wrote:

>

> Hari Om,

>

> I am addressing the first question reg telepathy, mind reading etc

> strictly as per guidelines ofModerator. Gitaji talks at many

places

> reg Jeeva being capable of becoming " all knowing " (sarvagya, sarva

> vit). Gitaji also refers re the Jnana Yogi that he first sees all

in

> him and then himself in all. For Bhakti Yogi also " to see God

> everywhere and in everyone " is dictum. Karma yogi also considers

all

> as part of one and serves one and all selflessly. God gives Jeeva

a

> status as equal as himself but the title " jeeva " then ceases. Now

> this is the position. If God can have power of telepathy, mind

> reading etc then you can also have that power. I have no doubt on

> this.Even Patanjaliji Maharaj has listed telepathy etc as

> a " siddhi " which can be acquired by practice of Yoga

>

> That apart, but the counter question is where is the need for

> Saadhak to acquire that power? As per question_ to know whether

the

> person is good or bad! But when God is existing in every one and

you

> are thinking of making him as medium then what kind of goodness or

> evilness remains to be seen? When everything is God (Gitaji 7:19)

> where is the possibility of bad or good being present anywhere, in

> anybody?If you are good, your medium is good, then how can a soul

> just like you, having same fundamentals like you can be bad? What

> can you achieve by using mind reading etc. If you are good , the

> entire universe is good, every iota of Brahmand is good? Why to

use

> God for that? To know somebody's mind. MIND! Mind which changes

> every fraction of a second!

>

> The second question! Why kill any living being? Or rather " Why not

> to kill any living being " !

> At the outset it actually does not matter from God's point of view

> as to who is getting killed. All his children and the creation

> is " immortal " from his point of view. That is why he doesnot

object

> directly or puts the things to a grinding halt even if you kill

any

> one of his creations including his most loved creation _ the holy

> Cow! What to say of a human killing another! That is the God _

> watching, tolerating, the action of one child vis-a-vis his

another

> child! But he maintains the record, he has his own method of

> bringing the errant child to his senses! He can afford to wait, he

> loves all equally. That is the point ofview of one element of the

> trinity!

>

> The second element is the one who got killed. Nobody can get

killed

> as per Gita! (Chapter 2). One who got killed in fact would never

> regret after getting killed because in fact he has become purer!

In

> fact he has reaped what he sowed and is now debt free! He in fact

is

> the happiest among the three- though to the third party he may be

> appearing to be the helpless victim! But that is between him and

God

> only. The butcher cannot draw any points out of it.The butcher is

on

> a totally different wicket( unless there are exceptional

> circumstances- very rare circumstances- the kind of circumstances

> which if God permits me to list / elaborate upon, I shall do so

for

> mutual benefit while addressing the Question no 3 of this subject

> topic). But the one who suffered or got killed is definitely on

the

> rise, is definitely moving towards the north- there is no doubt on

> this!

>

> Now come to the murderer!What right he had to annihilate any

> creature from this world? Did he create them? Was he nourishing or

> feeding them?What harm those creatures caused to him? What was the

> mistake made vis-a-vis him by the holy Cow or by. Fish or by a

> chicken or by a lamb or by a pig? Just for fun? Just to satisfy

the

> demands of tongue? Just to settle scores with an enemy? Just to

feed

> the Ego or show power? " Don't you know who I am " - to prove this

to

> the world? To continue with what you have seen others as doing? If

> you can kill why you should not kill? Taste! Everybody does it so

I

> should also?.God has made them for killing only and has made me

> superior to them! All these arguments , thoughts are advocated.

None

> is valid! You had a licence of power, you misused that, you

ignored

> the basics of humanity and hence you will be stripped of your

> powers! Did you ever realise what kind of pain the fish or chicken

> or cow goes through? No - so now realise that ? How? Become that!

> That is then becomes your fate! That is then becomes the dictum of

> mother nature for you! That then becomes the punishment for you!

>

> That is why you should not kill! Itb makes no difference to the

God

> or World or the victim- it makes difference to you!

>

> Look at the type of difference the killng others can make to you?

> You fall from the position of human being to the position of

animal!

> As a human being you could have gone to any heights - even become

> God! But just to satisfy your tongue - you fell down to become an

> animal! Surely now the tongue will be the centre of attraction!

> Tongue as good as that of frog, as good as that of snake! As good

as

> that of Cuckoo! But what about you! That is why you should not

kill

> or motivate others to kill! He who gave you power to kill can also

> take that power away from you and give the same power to that soul

> whom you killed or to that soul who has been appointed by Him to

> make you taste your own medicine! Be sure that when He does so,

he

> does with 100 times more intensity than what you did! He knows

> better than you the principles of Maths and the principles of

> interest calculation- simple, compound, and the rests of

copounding

> the interest- daily rest or monthly rests or the yearly rests!

> Then where shall you be? That is why you should not kill! Don't

> gfive the argument that you killed because some one hurt you! It

> will not be accepted that easily. Be sure before giving that

> argument as to whether you have never hurt anyone and what if he

> also takes rhat stand!

>

> Many times we take the stand that in this world if we don't kill

say

> chickens or say lambs , the world will be full of them. Many times

> we say this world has got only one law- the strong wins and the

weak

> loses! How many think as to how and why this law came into being?

> Who is that weak ? Why is he weak? Why is some one strong? What

are

> the duties of one who is strong? Who made them weak or strong?

Why ?

> Can you not be made weak??? One who made you strong and some one

> else as weak - is He not powerful enough to turn the tables? That

is

> why you should not kill!

>

> Saadhaks may give their arguments! They may ask as to whom the

> father of Lord Rama, Dashratha, wanted actually to kill which act

> ultimately resulted in death of Shravan Kumar! Saadhaks may ask as

> to why the 100 sons of Mother Gandhari got killed? In the

questions

> itself the answers will be there!

>

> As regards the argument that the world will be full of chickens or

> of Holy Cows or of lambs or of goats or the argument that the

ocean

> will not have space if we don't eat away fish or prawns or

lobsters-

> must first count their numbers and take their census in the world

> vis-a-vis the human beings, they must take into account their

> respective roles in making this earth worth living vis-a-vis the

> role of human beings and then see who is more essential!

>

> Jai Shree Krishna

>

> Vyas, N B

> -

> , " sadhak_insight "

> <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> >

> > Shree Hari

> > Ram Ram

> >

> > To All...

> > Please kindly re-read the guidelines for this group and please

> > kindly respond with (supporting Gita shlokas), limiting personal

> > opinions, being concise and to the point and addressing the

topic

> at

> > hand, and not calling out any specific sadhak's name . Thank

you,

> >

> > From the Moderator

> > Ram Ram

> > --------------------------------

--

> >

> > Hari Om !

> >

> > 1. Can we communicate through this common factor (Telepathy,

> > mind reading, knowing that a person is good or bad and so on).

> > Suppose we get a piece of mirror broken part from a bigger mirror

> > which is being kept on the wall. The bigger mirror reflects very

> > well because of its good quality and pure reception. It is being

> > cleaned every day with a lot of care and so the reflection

falling

> > on it is very much clear.

> >

> > As regards to the piece broken from it, it is being ignored and

> put

> > it away as waste and no body do the dusting or cleaning of it. A

> lot

> > of dust accumulates on it and the reflection falling upon it is

not

> > at all clear due to the veil of dust.

> >

> > Our mind is like a broken piece of mirror from the Eternal Bigger

> > one of the kind. It needs regular dusting for good quality

> > performance. Imagine the amount of negative thoughts such as

> hatred,

> > envy, jealousy, anger, ego, etc., that flow through our mind

> > unknowingly. They pollute our mind as the case of the dusty

mirror.

> > We need to regular cleansing of our mind to purify it so as to

get

> a

> > pure reception from the eternal Consciousness. Unless our

internal

> > equipments (mind, intellect, etc.) are not purified, how can we

> > expect good results from it? Suppose our mind is a polluted

vessel,

> > we are not going to benefit the milk or nectar which is poured in

> > it. First we have to keep our inner equipments clean, and then

> > whatever is poured in it is going to benefit us.

> >

> > When we are pure and regular in dhyana, our mind gets connected

> with

> > the collective minds in the Consciousness and we get intuitions,

> > etc. We will be able to read others mind, by looking into their

> > eyes, as eyes reflect the kind of feelings and thoughts they

> > entertain in their mind.

> >

> > There is no need to know the other person whether good or bad.

It

> is

> > we that need introspection as to what type of thoughts coming to

> our

> > mind and how to improve the quality of our thoughts. Direct our

> > thoughts to the divine by different sadhanas prescribed by a

> > Realized Guru or as per the Scriptures, then we get purified.

> > Purification of our hearts should be for the realization of the

> > Infinite and not for getting sidhis. God is greater than all

kinds

> > of sidhis. Once we get merged into the Divine, we no more need

> > anything like telepathy, mind reading or the need to know others'

> > minds.

> >

> > When a flower is bloomed, its fragrance attracts the bees and

> > butterflies. It needs no advertisement. Bees and butterflies get

> > attracted to it, which is standing still on the plant. When we

get

> > purified, good people naturally get attracted to the goodness in

> us.

> >

> > If a person is bad or has committed great sins, even God is not

> > ignoring him. He is getting all the blessings as other punyatmas

> are

> > getting. He gets oxygen to breath, water from the rains, sun

light,

> > everything as others do. Learned Sages do not consider any one

papi

> > even if they committed great sins. They find in him some good

> > qualities that lie dormant in seed form in his mind, and they

> > stimulate the dormant good qualities in him. So he gets evolved

and

> > purified. Likewise, we need not avoid any people, if we are

> purified

> > enough ourselves, people who have committing sins or whose

actions

> > are bad, get purified with our company (sat-sang).

> >

> > So there is no need to know the mind of others and trying to

> correct

> > them, but be a model for them to learn something from you.

> >

> > 2. Each person has God Consciousness(Narayana) in him/her

> > Serving other person is serving God (Narayana).

> > Why kill any living being?

> > Why Pandvas should kill Kauravas?

> >

> > In Bhagawad Gita, Lord Krishna is not asking Arjuna to `Kill

> > Kauravas', but to do it duty at the battle-field. A soldier is

not

> > killing the enemy soldiers. But just performing his duty as per

the

> > High Command. He is not killing them for his own selfish motive.

He

> > is saving his country.

> >

> > Suppose you are Arjuna, then Lord Krishna reminds you to do your

> own

> > duty wherever you are, and dedicate the results obtaining from

them

> > to surrender to God.

> >

> > Lord Krishna indirectly asking us keeping Arjuna as a model, to

> > introspect ourselves. When Arjuna finds himself not capable of

> > performing his duties, the skills he acquired all these years

have

> > gone mere waste. (Imagine a heart surgeon who is expert in his

job,

> > but gets worried and turns away from his duty, when he learns the

> > patient in front of him is his own daughter). So Lord Krishna

asks

> > Arjuna to turn his attention towards his inner Self (to turn

within

> > and introspect himself). (What kind of thoughts that are coming

and

> > going in our mind, that type of personality we have. It is

> said, " As

> > the thoughts – so the mind, as the mind – so the actions, as the

> > actions – so the character of the person " ). Then Arjuna saw there

> > were innumerable negative thoughts in his mind (number hundred

and

> > thousand in Sanskrit denotes `many' and not the exact number

> > mentioned) like the 100 Kauravas and the positive thoughts he

> > entertained were only a handful (5 Pandavas). In order to become

> > brave and confident to perform any karma. He had to eradicate all

> > the negative thoughts that came on his way, and for that purpose

> > Lord Krisha is asking him to eradicate the negative thoughts

> > standing on his pathway (Kauravas) surrendering to the Lord the

> > results of the karmas. When God is giving us everything, and

making

> > us an instrument, He is working through us, how can we be proud

of

> > our actions?

> >

> > Pranams,

> > Vanaja Ravi Nair.

> > --------------------------------

--

> -

> > my humble parnaams !

> > thanks for explaining ,replying to doubts raised by me.

> > Bhagwat Gita, is the oceon of Knowldge, the dynamic spirituality

> > Here and Now ... makes the Sadhak instruments of Krishna .

> >

> > As I understand, it is the force acting through the instruments

of

> > doer.. As all the instruments namly mind, body intellect, the

frame

> > of Mind through which the force is acting really belongs to

> > Ishwara.. the instrument is mere nimatmatram..

> >

> > Regards to All sadhaks of this forum..

> > thanks once again for bearing the ignorance of a ignorant

child..

> >

> > humble servant..

> > kuldip

> > (Kuldip Suri)

> >

> > --------------------------------

--

> --

> > , " sadhak_insight "

> > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

> > >

> > > This is to clarify my understanding on Kuldipji's

> > questions/doubts.

> > > I am grateful for such opportunity.

> > >

> > > The teaching of Bhagwat Geeta is better understood in the

> > > Upanishadic context as it is rightly called Krishna, a fit

Gwala

> > > (cowman) who has milked the cow of Upanaishadas and milk is

> Geeta.

> > >

> > > Jivatma is translated as soul, under the spell of Maya, lives

> with

> > > the impressions of sanskaras, unfulfilled desires(vaasanas),

> > > conditioned into believing and acting as a separate entity.

> > >

> > > It's as if space in the clay pot considers itself a separate

> from

> > > the universal space in ignorance! Or an ear-ring considering

> > itself

> > > an independent existence apart from Gold! This is perishable-

> Kshar

> > > residing as though in the body which is also perishable. So

that

> > > which is perishable cannot be the ultimate truth of Jivatma-

> soul.

> > > However, for explaining our ignorance, Krishna mentiones this

> > > entity. This is what goes from body to body carrying with it

> > > impressions of karmas, like air carrying foul smell or

fragrance

> > to

> > > distances until exhausted and become free(pure). Hence in

> > ignorance

> > > or in dream it is felt as if soul is residing in the body

> (meaning

> > > limitations are superimposed by Jivatma on itself), but truth

is

> > > otherwise!

> > >

> > > Then Ishwara is Imperishable being of Jivatma, manifested

Saguna

> > > Brahman, not under the spell of Maya. These two entities are

so-

> > > called only but are really ONE, Jiva and Shiva or Jiva and

> > Ishwara,

> > > one being ignorance and the other being the reality or

Kutastha

> as

> > > referred to body or any specific object's impersishable being

> > > aspect! One can say Jiva is such a mixture of so called two!

> > >

> > > Now Pure Consciousness or Supreme Being is the substratum, so

to

> > > speak, for apparantly(not in reality when realization takes

> place)

> > > two entities to BE.

> > >

> > > We are really that Consciousness right now when we let go of

our

> > > ignorance of taking ourselves as limited by body-mind-

intellect.

> > We

> > > can clearly see the stuff of all being is Consciousness,

because

> > we

> > > experience all objects as mere perceptions/conceptions with

> names

> > > and forms existing in Consciousness as Consciousness! It is as

> if

> > we

> > > wake up from the dream of ignorance. Then body is experienced

> > being

> > > in mind as perception of sensations, mind, in turn,

experienced

> > > being in Consciousness when thoughts are stirring. Here the

mind

> > is

> > > really subtle body - perishable carrying the vaasanas-

> impressions

> > as

> > > explained earlier in to next body.

> > >

> > > It is important to see that Krishna or Rishis are not

validating

> > the

> > > Jivatma as reality of us, only an explanation or a model

> depicting

> > > our condition under the influence of Maya.

> > >

> > > We need to start seeing the truth that we are such

Consciousness

> > and

> > > not give any credibility to that which is perishable! We were,

> are

> > > and will be Imperishable Consciousness or Awareness or Brhman,

> > Pure

> > > and ONE BEING of all beings.

> > >

> > > Please see this experiential reality of ourselves!

> > >

> > > Thus we explained the three purushas of the verses of Geeta:

> > > Jivatma, Ishwara, Brahman.

> > >

> > > All of them point ultimately to ONE Experience of Conscious

> Being

> > > never to be denied during Waking, dreaming and sleeping states

> of

> > > our existence! After the body disintegrates into Bhutas, we

are

> > > still That which we were before and during the life, Eternal

> Being!

> > >

> > > Namaskars... Pratap Bhatt

> > >

> > > ------------------------------

--

> --

> > -

> > > , " sadhak_insight "

> > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Death and life is occuring everytime in our lives. At time

of

> > > > changes in residense from one city to another, the new VASA

> is

> > > like

> > > > new born in a new environment. The word NiVAS or AVASA comes

> > from

> > > > VASA (under which) or VASANSI Jeernani ( old house). When

one

> > > > changes business place, or goes for studies in University,

> > kicked

> > > > out from a job, changed job for better job or taken

> retirement,

> > > and

> > > > lives in forest, all these are rebirths, some are by choice

> and

> > > some

> > > > by compulsons like accidents, suicides and diseases and

> > > calamities,

> > > > and some by samadhi. In all cases, individual is same but

> > his/her

> > > > environment and active worlds change. When individual moves

> from

> > > one

> > > > place to another, then he carries most valuable assest that

> > would

> > > be

> > > > needed at next life (new place). Similar is death, which is

> very

> > > far

> > > > off journey and one needs to carry very litle information of

> > great

> > > > value.

> > > >

> > > > If one has so many houses, one in Delhi, one in Mumbai, one

on

> > NY,

> > > > one in London and at all these places he has certain

families

> > > united

> > > > and in love, then, the owner of these so many houses lives

> where

> > > he

> > > > pleases, and not bound to maintain it because the occupants

do

> > it.

> > > > Sri Krishna is that who has infinite houses and lives where

he

> > > > pleases and is not bound except by love. If for example, my

> > mother

> > > > who is like Sri Krishna has five houses in different cities

> > built

> > > by

> > > > her five sons. And she is free to travel any where but

chooses

> > to

> > > > live where she feels intense love and need. She is free from

> > life

> > > > and death because she is not owner of any house but lives in

> all

> > > > houses, and is taken care of, and free from attachment and

> > > ahankaar.

> > > > Sri Krishna is chtrazya (knower of ) all knowers

(kstrazya).

> > > > Regards

> > > > K G

> > > > (krishna gopal)

> > > > ----------------------------

> > > > Dear divine souls !!!!

> > > >

> > > > my humble parnaams to ALL.

> > > >

> > > > Pratap Bhai...you wrote in your previous mail..

> > > >

> > > > Many may still think and believe Atma is residing in

> individual

> > > mind-

> > > > body, existing separately in each. This is too simplistic

view

> if

> > > > not properly investigated..

> > > >

> > > > 1. if individual soul(jivatma) does not resides in

individual

> > > > natural person...then who brought sanskara and Karmic link

of

> > past

> > > > Life to present Life..(If atma is considered universal

> principal)

> > > >

> > > > 2.When a person dies which part of the Being take away all

> > Karmic

> > > > Acts of present Life to future births.. to prove my point i

> am

> > > > quoting few Verses of Gita Ji.

> > > >

> > > > Chapter 15. v16

> > > > There are two purshas in the world,the immutable and the

> > mutable;

> > > > the mutable is all these existences the Kutastha is called

> the

> > > > immutable.

> > > > 17.

> > > > But other than these two is the highest spirit called the

> > supereme

> > > > Self,who enters the three worlds and upbears them, the

> > > imperisahble

> > > > Lord.

> > > > 18

> > > > Since I am beyond the mutable and am greater and higher even

> > then

> > > > the immutable in the world and in the Veda I am proclaimed

as

> > the

> > > > Purshottama.

> > > > here Gita clearly says..Kshare sarwani bhutani..

> > > > all creatures are Many souls in the Cosmic Play. Each soul

> > resides

> > > > or is present in the natural personality which carry forward

> the

> > > > experienc of that Life to nextlife and take birth with new

> > > > personality.

> > > > the embodied soul (Jivatama) is purush is residing in the

> Heart

> > of

> > > > all creatures..

> > > > Ishwara sarwa bhutanbaaam hrideshe arjun tishtti..Iswara is

> > > residing

> > > > in the heart of all

> > > > creatures (B.Gita)18.61

> > > > If Jiva the sanatan Ansh(is)not residing in heart please

> explain

> > > > these verses.to clear doubts.. Why Sri Krishna used these

> > words...

> > > > The three purshas..namely...

> > > > 1.Kshar....all these creatures(Many)

> > > > 2.Akshar Bhrahman....nirgun nirakaarinactive Brahman.

> > > > 3.Puroshottam..the supereme Brahman Sagun sawroop the

> > > > Lord who is Controlling the world through His Shakti (Apara)

> > > >

> > > > looking forwards to find answers from ALL..

> > > >

> > > > kuldip suri

> > > >

> > > > ----------------------------

--

> --

> > -

> > > > , " sadhak_insight "

> > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

> > > > > I am grateful to Kuldipji for asking clarifying questions

on

> > > > answers

> > > > > I shared on the subject.

> > > > > At the time of death of a person, gross physical body

> > > > disintegrates

> > > > > into five universal elements(earth, water, fire, air,

space)

> > > just

> > > > as

> > > > > it was integrated from them at birth. Thus person was

always

> > > made

> > > > > from these universal elements and never can survive as an

> > > > individual

> > > > > isolating him from the totality of being.

> > > > > During his/her life, a person lives as if he/she is an

> > > > independently

> > > > > existing and separate from the totality of all beings. He

is

> > > > > conditioned by likes and dislikes, personal desires,

genetic

> > > > > conditioning, culture, traditions, society, education,

etc.

> > and

> > > > > acquires vaasanas, subtle tendencies. Such traits form his

> > subtle

> > > > > (sukshma) body. A person is controlled/driven by this

subtle

> > > body,

> > > > > called body of ignorance consisting of past memory,

personal

> > > > > history, thoughts and feelings. This is the result of Atma-

> > > > > Consciousness identifying itself with this subtle body we

> > > > generally

> > > > > call soul. Such a soul departs upon death to merge with

> > > universal

> > > > > subtle body made of collective ignorance of all. From

such

> > > > > ignorance, new bodies are born, ignorance being the life

as

> > > > separate

> > > > > ego in separate body. This is just a belief not

investigated.

> > > > > Thus the cycle of birth and death which goes on until

> > > realization

> > > > > happens to that person in some life span, that he/she was

> > never

> > > > such

> > > > > a person bound in body-mind organism. He was always

> limitless

> > > > Atman,

> > > > > pure and undivided Consciousness ever existent and

universal

> > > > > Reality. Everything, sentients and insentients are within

> Him,

> > > > > meaning in Consciousness He is. Now we can answer

questions

> > > > raised

> > > > > here.

> > > > > 1)Shraaddh is performed for departed soul so that his/her

> > subtle

> > > > > body may find some peace on its onward journey and shed

its

> > > > bondage

> > > > > to some degree. This however becomes rituals on the part

of

> > > those

> > > > > who perform it due to their own ignorance. But it has some

> > value

> > > > for

> > > > > those who perform with shraddha and humility and good will

> for

> > > the

> > > > > departed.

> > > > >

> > > > > 2) As explained, it is the subtle body of ignorance of not

> > > > realizing

> > > > > its true nature that goes through narakas as if such

bodies

> > are

> > > > > being recycled back to life to give another chance to

> realize

> > > the

> > > > > true universality of Atman that He is, which is never

bound

> in

> > > the

> > > > > body in the first place.

> > > > >

> > > > > 3) As long as we live our lives with this separation

called

> > ego

> > > > and

> > > > > consider us doers of our deeds, we are bound by ignorance

> into

> > > > such

> > > > > thinking and suffering along the way. When such a person

> > > realizes

> > > > > his true self as Consciousness, Absolute existence Itself,

> > > running

> > > > > the show through his body-mind instrument, he/she is free

to

> > > play

> > > > > whatever role he/she is assigned by Divine Consciousness.

> > Until

> > > > such

> > > > > time this happens he lives as if in a dream world. TO wake

> up

> > > from

> > > > > such a dream is to live in Bliss! Then as body-mind

persons

> we

> > > > > just play our roles in a drama/dream but never suffer

while

> > > > playing

> > > > > the roles.

> > > > >

> > > > > We are always free from predetermined-destiny as such

> > > > Consciousness.

> > > > > However, it may appear to a person who is ignorant of

> his/her

> > > > > universality as if bound in such roles. Our immortality is

> in

> > > > taking

> > > > > our true stand and lving as Consciousness-Atman while our

> body

> > > is

> > > > > mortal, and incidental for playing role.

> > > > >

> > > > > 4) God has no plan, just celebration of life through all

> > > creation

> > > > > which He Himself Is! We can realize the truth in this life

> if

> > we

> > > > > long for such knowledge intensely. When we do, our

> questions

> > > > > disappear leaving us fulfilled, in our Bliss. Then, who is

> > there

> > > > to

> > > > > ask questions as to what is the purpose of this creation?

It

> > is

> > > > God-

> > > > > Atma-Brahman all the way in celebration!

> > > > >

> > > > > Once again, we are always free from destiny as Atman,

always

> > > > taking

> > > > > right actions in the moment for greater good. But if we

> think

> > > > > ourselves to be individual ego then we are controlled by

> world

> > > > > around us, by destiny as our Conditioning!

> > > > > If we live as universal Consciousness-Atman, we can never

> rob

> > > > > another person. Our role is to be responsible for the

> entire

> > > > > universe! Only as individual " me " based person may rob

> another

> > > one.

> > > > > Pratap hoping this helps!

> > > > >

> > > > > (Pratap Bhatt)

> > > > > --------------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > -

> > > > >

> > > > > Dear Sadak,

> > > > > In Bhagavath Geetha, Bhagavan describes a character

as " Guna

> > > > > Theethan " . This person lives very calm, whatever may come

> and

> > > > > whatever may happen. He does NOT ask for God`s help. He

> never

> > > gets

> > > > > perturbed by happiness or sorrow. He never asks anything

> even

> > if

> > > I

> > > > > (Bhagavan) appears to give him with a boon. I (Bhagavan)

> likes

> > > > such

> > > > > a devotee, very much.

> > > > > Refering a sadak writing below: Guna Theethan knows that

it

> is

> > > > God`s

> > > > > responsibility and never wants to disturb God. He knows

that

> > God

> > > > was

> > > > > always caring and will always care. He himself has

> surrendered

> > > to

> > > > > God. He sees no difference if magic happens or death takes

> > > > place.

> > > > > He serves but does not think he is serving God` s people

as

> he

> > > has

> > > > > removed that- I & Mine.

> > > > > If one should think he is serving then the phala Karma

> (action

> > > of

> > > > > serving) goes to that person. If one serves without any

> > thought,

> > > > > then the pala goes to Bhagavan.

> > > > > Naradha thought that why people are not saying, Narayana.

He

> > was

> > > > > made to realise through a Brahmin who never said Narayana.

> > > > Referance

> > > > > Padma Puranam. Sathybama thought she was serving Bhagavan.

> She

> > > was

> > > > > made to realise through Sri Krishna Thulabaaram. Bheema

> > thought

> > > he

> > > > > was mighter before Krishna and was made to realise that

> Bheema

> > > was

> > > > > unable to lift even a monkey's (Sri Hanuman in disguise)

> tail.

> > > > > Referance Maha Bharatham.

> > > > >

> > > > > Sadaks-- Bagavan is " SERVAGNIYAM- SERVASATHAN " . HE gave

> mother

> > > > > devaki all 7 children killed by Kans. HE gave HIS guru

> > Sandeepan

> > > > his

> > > > > son who died long before.

> > > > > Sadaks--This does not mean we can ask and HE will give. HE

> > knows

> > > > > what to give.

> > > > >

> > > > > Let us all be like Guna Theethan (by His grace)

> > > > > B.Sathyanarayan

> > > > >

> > > > > --------------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > -

> > > > > , " sadhak_insight "

> > > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Dear Sadaks and " hitsoftindia "

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Mother (Maatha), Father (Phitta), Spiritual Guide (Guru)

> and

> > > > > Deivam.

> > > > > > Maatha is the first step on earth, Pittha 2nd education,

> > Guru

> > > 3rd

> > > > > > step to Gynana marg 3rd step and Deivam (God) 4th step

> final

> > to

> > > > > > Moksha. Ultimate goal of any living form is Liberation.

So

> > > > mother,

> > > > > > father and Guru has been with us in several births. But

we

> > > > continue

> > > > > > this cycle of birth and death without reaching divinity.

> > > Parents

> > > > > and

> > > > > > Guru have their limitations. But God is unlimited. To

> reach

> > the

> > > > > > stage of Dharma you need virtuous actions (Karmas).

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Examples: Harischandra was to behead his wife.

Viswamitra

> > > stopped

> > > > > > and praised the dharmic act. Sandikeswarar (a famous

> Shiva

> > > > > Devotee)

> > > > > > he regularly used to do abishek to Bagavan Shiva made by

> > > himself

> > > > > out

> > > > > > of sand. His father got angry on that act and rushed to

> kick

> > > the

> > > > > > sand mould (Shiva) on which Sandikeswarar was pouring

> milk.

> > > When

> > > > > the

> > > > > > Son hit his father`s leg with Dharba (holy dry grass),

the

> > > > father's

> > > > > > leg was chopped off. Realisation took place.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Yudhistera was asked by Yeksha to take a boon to save

one

> of

> > > his

> > > > > four

> > > > > > brothers who was lying dead. Yudhistra asked for the

> > youngest.

> > > > > > Yaksha asked to Yudistra why he has not opted for Arjuna

> or

> > > > Bheema

> > > > > > who could be helpful in war. Yudhistra said he is there

to

> > do

> > > > last

> > > > > > rights of his mother, but if Shahadev is not brought to

> life

> > > > there

> > > > > > is no one to do last rights of his mother. Besides

asking

> for

> > > > > > Arjuna/Bheema, would be a selfish act.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > If mother should go Mad, then it is son` s duty to take

> her

> > > away

> > > > > > from society and live with her. But if mother becomes

> threat

> > to

> > > > > > son/daughter life, and society at large, then one needs

to

> > do

> > > > what

> > > > > > is beneficial and less harmful to more people at large.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Bagavan Parasuram one of the 10 Avathar had chopped of

his

> > > > mother`

> > > > > s

> > > > > > head just to abide by his father` s order. Later his

> father

> > > very

> > > > > > satisfied asked Parasuram what boon he wanted. Parasuram

> > asked

> > > > his

> > > > > > father that to return his mother back to life. 1st Matha

> > > Vakiyam

> > > > > > Paripalanam, next higher step father Vakiyam, next Guru

> > > Vakiyam,

> > > > > and

> > > > > > highest is obeying GOD`S words without asking any

question.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Example: During war in Kurushetra, Bagavan says to

> > > Yudistara, "

> > > > to

> > > > > > shout out that Ashvadhama died " . Yudistatra refused to

say

> > lie.

> > > > > > Bagavan asks Bheema to kill an elephant called

Ashwadhama.

> > > Bheema

> > > > > > kills the elephant without any question even in mind.

Then

> > > > sadhaks

> > > > > > you all know what happened.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Much later when Pandavas die, Yudhistara meets Sri

Krishna

> in

> > > > > > heavens. Bheema was in heaven before Yudhisthir.

> > > > > > Yudhistara asks Sri Krishna why Bheema was first?

> Bagavan

> > > says,

> > > > > > Bheema did what I (BHagavan) said without questioning,

but

> > you

> > > > > > Yudhistara you only did what you were asked to say,

only

> > after

> > > > > > questioning.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Taken from the perspective of " Vasudeva Sarvam " , the one

> > being

> > > > > killed and one performing the act of killing are the same

> > Sriman

> > > > > Narayana.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Bagavan in Geetha clearly says, " I am in everything but

I

> > not

> > > > > that " .

> > > > > > Bagavan is in you but HE is not the body. Body functions

> as

> > per

> > > > > > Karmas but Bagavan remains witness. Gynaneswar moved

> walls

> > > > > (achetanam). The wall had the power of Bagavan but Bagavan

> is

> > > not

> > > > > wall. Prahlad showed Narashima (God) in a pillar but

Bagavan

> > is

> > > > not

> > > > > that pillar.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Simply understand this that GOD is Omnipresent and let

> your

> > > mind

> > > > > not

> > > > > > go too deep into sastras. Adi Sankara said that going

deep

> > in

> > > > > Sastras you may offset yourself from GOD.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Namaste

> > > > > >

> > > > > > B.Sathyanarayan

> > > > > >

> > > > > > ------------------------

-

> > > > > > Shree Hari

> > > > > > Ram Ram

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Seek help from God, by placing your mother in God's lap,

> and

> > > > > praying

> > > > > > to God, " Bhagavan - she is now Your responsibility. I

am

> > > > unable

> > > > > to take care of the situation on my own. Only You can take

> > care

> > > of

> > > > > her. You have been doing so all along, but I have been

> > thinking

> > > > > that it is me. Please take what belongs to you back to

> you.

> > > You

> > > > > only take care of her, I cannot do it " In this manner,

> > > surrender

> > > > > her over to God and He will surely take care of her. You

> will

> > > see

> > > > > the magic as Pujya Swamiji has said on number of

occasions.

> > In

> > > > the

> > > > > mean time continue to do all the necessary seva as if she

> > > belongs

> > > > to

> > > > > God and you are serving His people. It is no longer your

> > > problem,

> > > > > you are only serving God's people (not your mother). Be

at

> > ease

> > > > and

> > > > > peace ! You will see the magic.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > A Sadhak

> > > > > > ------------------------

--

> --

> > -

> > > > > > parnaaams...

> > > > > >

> > > > > > dear Pratap Bhatt,

> > > > > >

> > > > > > please clarify few doubts....

> > > > > >

> > > > > > 1.If Atman is Universal Principal...after the death of a

> > > person..

> > > > > > why we Hindus practice Sharaads and other rituals to

make

> > way

> > > > for

> > > > > the departed soul.for its easy passage....

> > > > > > 2.The Different Narkas as described in the Book Gruer

> > Purana..

> > > > > > is it merely Myth?... as Atman cannot be divided and

> > > > touched..who

> > > > > goes

> > > > > > through those Dark Worlds mentioned in the Book.

> > > > > > 3.you further wrote..our roles including dying as

assigned

> > in

> > > > the

> > > > > script, which is written, directed, played and watched

by

> > God

> > > > > through us! Roles are mortals but " we " who play these

> roles

> > > are

> > > > > One mortal Conscious Being.

> > > > > > If each and every event is predermmined, already written

> as

> > > our

> > > > > role...then when a person robs another, what is his

fault ?

> as

> > > the

> > > > > script is already written ?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > What was God 's purpose of this Creation..if every thing

> He

> > > > > already wrote?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Thanks..

> > > > > >

> > > > > > kuldip suri

> > > > > >

> > > > > > ------------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > > > > , " sadhak_insight "

> > > > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Insightful answers are given already on this subject

by

> > > > Sadhakas.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I want to emphasize some points I see important.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Many may still think and believe Atma is residing in

> > > individual

> > > > > > mind-

> > > > > > > body, existing separately in each. This is too

> simplistic

> > > view

> > > > if

> > > > > > > not properly investigated.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Atman is ONE unique experience of Being which is also

at

> > the

> > > > same

> > > > > > > time knowingness or Consciousness we all share. Just

as

> > space

> > > > > > cannot

> > > > > > > be divided or corrupted by objects of the world,

> > > Consciousness,

> > > > > > > subtlest than space, cannot be divided, nor touched,

nor

> > > > > > > differentiated as separate objects. Objects are

> perceived

> > by

> > > > > Atman

> > > > > > > and are also made up of the same vastue as Atman or

> > > > consciousness

> > > > > > we

> > > > > > > experience as thoughts or feelings creating apparant

> > > > separations

> > > > > > > among conceived objects. Upon inquiry one may discover

> > Atman

> > > > to

> > > > > be

> > > > > > > impersonal, infinite, ONE Wholeness, homogeneous in

> > nature.

> > > > This

> > > > > > is

> > > > > > > Absolute reality or Brahman. Atman is Brahman,

proclaimed

> > > > > > > Upanishadic sages!

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Brahman appears diverse as nature with all sentient

and

> > > > > insentient

> > > > > > > beings trigunatmik in nature. This is relative truth

of

> > > > > everything

> > > > > > > that a mind can know. It is like a movie manifesting

> > > diversity

> > > > > > from

> > > > > > > ONE light of projector passing through films, or a

dream

> > > > > > manifesting

> > > > > > > many objects in one mind.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Once known for what it is, our true nature, this

> > > consciousness

> > > > of

> > > > > > > being is realized as eternal, immortal. Now the world

of

> > > > > > relativity

> > > > > > > becomes leela or drama, so to speak. In such a play we

> > enjoy

> > > > > > playing

> > > > > > > our roles including dying as assigned in the script,

> which

> > is

> > > > > > > written, directed, played and watched by God through

> us!

> > > Roles

> > > > > > are

> > > > > > > mortals but " we " who play these roles are One immortal

> > > > Conscious

> > > > > > > Being.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > To play our roles in the drama in the best possible

way

> is

> > > the

> > > > > > only

> > > > > > > thing we can do once we are convinced it is so! This

is

> why

> > > > > > Pandavas

> > > > > > > killed Kauravas(bodies), and this is also why it is

said

> > Yada

> > > > > > yadahi

> > > > > > > dharmasya.........

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > In the play of Mahabharata Arjuna was enlightened by

> Lord,

> > > the

> > > > > > > supeme Consciousness!Kauravas played the roles of evil

> > > beings

> > > > and

> > > > > > > died in war and thus Dharma was restablished all per

the

> > > > script.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Namaskar......Pratap

> > > > > > > (Pratap Bhatt)

> > > > > > > ----------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > --

> > > > --

> > > > > --

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > , " sadhak_insight "

> > > > > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Shree Hari

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Ram Ram

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > As Mr. Naga Narayanaji explained so beautifully that

> > this

> > > war

> > > > > > had

> > > > > > > to

> > > > > > > > be waged for the righteousness sake after exhausting

> all

> > > the

> > > > > > > > peaceful means to resolve the issues.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Also, as Nagaji pointed out that the weakness has

been

> > > there

> > > > > all

> > > > > > > > along with the Hindus, they have not stood up to the

> > > occasion

> > > > > > when

> > > > > > > > they should have, while facing foreign invasions

over

> > the

> > > > > years.

> > > > > > > > Perhaps they thought they would be doing Violence

> > (Himsa)

> > > if

> > > > > > they

> > > > > > > > fought back. Swami Vivekananda pounded this message

> of

> > > > > strength

> > > > > > > > again and again to wake up the Indian masses against

> the

> > > > > > > prevailing

> > > > > > > > lethargy and weakness.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > While in delusion, Arjuna too says in Gitaji (1-36):

> > > > > > > > " O Janaradana, what joy we can be derive by slaying

> the

> > > sons

> > > > > > of

> > > > > > > > Dhrtarastra, sin alone will accrue to us by

killing

> > these

> > > > > > > felons " .

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Lord Krishna scolds Arjuna in Gitaji (2-33):

> > > > > > > > " Now, if you will not wage such a righteous war,

then,

> > > > > > abandoning

> > > > > > > > your duty and losing your reputation, you will incur

> > sin " .

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > An interesting question - is it really fair even to

> > raise a

> > > > > > doubt

> > > > > > > > about Pandvas killing Kaurvas in the Mahabharat war?

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Few observations to ponder over:

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > This was a Dharma Yudha fought in Kurukshetra which

> has

> > > been

> > > > > > > called

> > > > > > > > as a Dharma Kshetra, in the presence of Lord

Himself,

> > who

> > > is

> > > > > the

> > > > > > > > protector and upholder of the Dharma. Would Lord

> Krishna

> > > not

> > > > > > stop

> > > > > > > > this war if He felt the war was not being faught for

> the

> > > > right

> > > > > > > > reasons.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > How would the mankind receive the marvelous message

of

> > > > Gitaji

> > > > > if

> > > > > > > it

> > > > > > > > there were not the unique setting of this war.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Gitaji says it is not the actions which matter but

> > > motivation

> > > > > > > behind

> > > > > > > > them which is important. (Ref: Gitaji (18-17)

> > > > > > > > " He whose mind is free from self sense (egoism), and

> > whose

> > > > > > > > understanding is free from attachment, even though

> > slaying

> > > > > > all

> > > > > > > > these people, slays not, nor he is bound " .

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > It is not the type of action which is critical but

it

> is

> > > the

> > > > > > > > attitude with which actions are performed. (Ref:

> Gitaji

> > 2-

> > > 38)

> > > > > > > > " Treating alike pleasure and pain, gain and loss,

> > victory

> > > and

> > > > > > > > defeat, get ready to fight, then, fighting thus you

> will

> > > not

> > > > > > incur

> > > > > > > > sin " .

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > On Adhayatamic scale, the Mahabharat war represents

> the

> > > > warfare

> > > > > > > > which is going on everyday within all sadhakas and

non-

> > > > sadhkas,

> > > > > > > the

> > > > > > > > good tendencies (small in number = 5) are fighting

> with

> > > the

> > > > bad

> > > > > > > > tendencies (larger in number =100). This war has to

be

> > > fought

> > > > > > and

> > > > > > > > won if one wishes to pursue the spiritual path.

> > > > > > > > Ram Ram

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Humble pranam

> > > > > > > > Madan Kaura

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > --------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > --

> > > > --

> > > > > --

> > > > > > --

> > > > > > > -

> > > > > > > > B.Sathyanarayan please clarify your message

> > > > > > > > Can one kill his / her mother even if she has become

> > > threat

> > > > to

> > > > > > > his /

> > > > > > > > her life OR life of other family members? (say she

has

> > > gone

> > > > > mad)

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Jai Shri Krushna

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > " hitsoftindia "

> > > > > > > > --------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > --

> > > > --

> > > > > --

> > > > > > --

> > > > > > > -

> > > > > > > > , " sadhak_insight "

> > > > > > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > One small correction. Duryodhan's father was

> > > > Dhritharashtra.

> > > > > > > > > G.Vaidyanathan

> > > > > > > > > ------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > --

> > > > --

> > > > > --

> > > > > > --

> > > > > > > --

> > > > > > > > -

> > > > > > > > > , " sadhak_insight "

> > > > > > > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Dear sadhaks,

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > you are right in your thinking.

> > > > > > > > > > Our scripts say -Death comes by accidents, by

> > > calamities-

> > > >

> > > > > by

> > > > > > > > other

> > > > > > > > > > living beings such as snake bite, by tiger

killing

> > > human

> > > > > and

> > > > > > > > other

> > > > > > > > > > animals. Death comes by diseases based on one`s

> > > karma,

> > > > so

> > > > > > on.

> > > > > > > > > > Sastras are considered as pramanams. Sastra says

> > human

> > > > > > killing

> > > > > > > > > > another human is known as Brahma Hathi (Brahma

> > Dhosam)

> > > > > > > certainly

> > > > > > > > a

> > > > > > > > > > sin.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > But same scripts say- Killing some bad one to

save

> a

> > > > > village

> > > > > > > is

> > > > > > > > NO

> > > > > > > > > > sin. Destroying a village and people is No sin

to

> > save

> > > a

> > > > > big

> > > > > > > > town.

> > > > > > > > > > Destroying a town to save 10 towns is NO sin.

> > > Destroying

> > > > 10

> > > > > > > > towns

> > > > > > > > > to

> > > > > > > > > > save a big city (100 towns) is NO sin.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Killing some one causes sin (Brama Hathi). But

> that

> > > act

> > > > > done

> > > > > > > for

> > > > > > > > > the

> > > > > > > > > > good of society at large is called Dharma. That

> act

> > > > should

> > > > > > > never

> > > > > > > > > be

> > > > > > > > > > even 0.001% for selfish gains. Anything done for

> > > selfish

> > > > > > gain

> > > > > > > > > become

> > > > > > > > > > Paapa (sin). Anything done for selfless gain

> becomes

> > > > > Punnya.

> > > > > > > > > > Kauravas were so wicked, notorious, corrupted,

> they

> > did

> > > > > > > anything

> > > > > > > > > and

> > > > > > > > > > everything for their pleasures, not being

mindful

> of

> > > > others

> > > > > > > > > > sufferings. They were given may opportunities to

> > > rectify

> > > > > > > > > themselves.

> > > > > > > > > > At end they remained the evil and had to be

killed

> > for

> > > > > > > > maintaining

> > > > > > > > > > peace and dharma.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > When Pandavas were children, Duryodan (He) mixed

> > > poison

> > > > in

> > > > > > > > sweets

> > > > > > > > > > (Laddu) and gave to Bheema. Bheema Was saved.

> Later

> > He

> > > > > > wanted

> > > > > > > to

> > > > > > > > > kill

> > > > > > > > > > Pandavas, made a wax house for them to stay in

and

> > soon

> > > > > > after

> > > > > > > > set

> > > > > > > > > > fire to it. Pandavas escaped through a tunnel.

> > Again

> > > he

> > > > > > > planned

> > > > > > > > > and

> > > > > > > > > > made Pandavas to gamble, took away their

property,

> > > > disrobed

> > > > > > > > > Droupati,

> > > > > > > > > > sent them to exile. While they were in forest,

> > > Duryodana

> > > > > > > visited

> > > > > > > > > > adject forest to have Vana Bojana. Indra sent

> > > Gandarvas

> > > > to

> > > > > > > > arrest

> > > > > > > > > > Duryodana, Karna and others. Gandarvas tied them

> up

> > > and

> > > > was

> > > > > > > > > dragging.

> > > > > > > > > > The news went to Dharmaraja. Bheema felt happy,

but

> > > > > > Dharmaraja

> > > > > > > > > said

> > > > > > > > > > to Arjuna to wage war with Gandarvas and release

> > > > > Duryodana's

> > > > > > > > > people.

> > > > > > > > > > Later when Pandavas were in Agnathavas,

Duryodhan

> > > waged

> > > > war

> > > > > > > > > illegally

> > > > > > > > > > and lost the battle. Bagavan Krishna visited as

> > > > messenger

> > > > > to

> > > > > > > > > > pandavas, asked to compensate ONLY 5 villages to

> > > > Pandavas,

> > > > > > > > > Duryodana

> > > > > > > > > > refused saying that He will not give place as

> small

> > as

> > > a

> > > > > > > neddle

> > > > > > > > > > point. He again tried to rope up Bagavan and

kill

> Sri

> > > > > > Krishna,

> > > > > > > > who

> > > > > > > > > > took Viswaroop and showed HIS might. Duryodana

> said

> > to

> > > > > > others

> > > > > > > > that

> > > > > > > > > > Viswaroop was magic/illusion.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Duryodana uppa Kathas (small incidents) show He

> was

> > > > wicked,

> > > > > > > > > > notorious, cunning, wreckless, dishonourable to

> > > parents

> > > > and

> > > > > > > > > elders,

> > > > > > > > > > womaniser, cheater etc. Therfore with heavy bad

> > deeds

> > > to

> > > > > His

> > > > > > > > > account

> > > > > > > > > > He had was given very long rope and then killed.

> One

> > > > stage

> > > > > > > > Bagavan

> > > > > > > > > > and Vithura asks Duryodhana, " Is it correct to

do

> > all

> > > > these

> > > > > > > > sins " .

> > > > > > > > > > Duryodan replied, " I cannot help it though I

know

> I

> > am

> > > > > doing

> > > > > > > > worst

> > > > > > > > > > sins " .

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Duryodana father Dukshasan was a bad man in

> earlier

> > > birth

> > > > > > > > blinding

> > > > > > > > > > crane birds. So he was born blind and senseless.

> > > > > > > > > > Such bad people Bagavan said that they are to be

> > > killed

> > > > by

> > > > > > > > Arjuna

> > > > > > > > > > (king) which is Arjuna's Dharma to safeguard

> > interests

> > > of

> > > > > > > > society

> > > > > > > > > at

> > > > > > > > > > large and also to establish Dharma on earth.

> Leaving

> > > and

> > > > > > > running

> > > > > > > > > away

> > > > > > > > > > is not king` s Karma Marg.

> > > > > > > > > > To Vudhava Bagavan said go to Badrinath and do

> Tapas,

> > > > > > because

> > > > > > > > > Vudhava

> > > > > > > > > > was fit for that as his gnana Marg

> > > > > > > > > > Namaste

> > > > > > > > > > B.Sathyanarayan

> > > > > > > > > > ----------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > --

> > > > --

> > > > > --

> > > > > > --

> > > > > > > --

> > > > > > > > --

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > gita-

talk , " sadhak_insight "

> > > > > > > > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Dear Learned Sadhaks

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Ram Ram

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > My 2nd question on Gitaji

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > All living persons have Atma (Gitaji)

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Atma is a part of GOD as I understand.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Therefore all living being are having a common

> > factor

> > > > > > called

> > > > > > > > God.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Can we communicate through this common factor

> > > > (Telepathy,

> > > > > > > mind

> > > > > > > > > > > reading, knowing that a person is good or bad

> and

> > so

> > > > on)

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Each person has God Consciousness(Narayana) in

> > > him/her

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Serving other person is serving God (Narayana).

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Why kill any living being?

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Why Pandvas should kill Kauravas?

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Please enlighten

> > > > > > > > > > > me

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Jai Sri Krishana

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Ramesh Kumar Suri

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > --------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > --

> > > > --

> > > > > --

> > > > > > --

> > > > > > > > GITA

> > > > > > > > > > > TALK GROUP GUIDELINES:

> > > > > > > > > > > 1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas

> > clarify

> > > > their

> > > > > > > > doubts

> > > > > > > > > > > related to Gitaji shalokas. Therefore,

responses

> > > which

> > > > > > > further

> > > > > > > > > > > clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only

> be

> > > > posted.

> > > > > > > > > > > 2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or

> other

> > > > > > > scriptures

> > > > > > > > to

> > > > > > > > > > > substantiate your response.

> > > > > > > > > > > 3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions,

> > beliefs

> > > > etc.

> > > > > > to

> > > > > > > > the

> > > > > > > > > > > extent that they further help in understanding

> the

> > > Gita

> > > > > > > shlokas

> > > > > > > > > > > 4. Please be as concise and to the point as

> > possible,

> > > > > > > > respecting

> > > > > > > > > > > sadhaka's time.

> > > > > > > > > > > 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at

> > hand

> > > > only.

> > > > > > > > > > > 6. Please do not include links to the other

> sites

> > or

> > > > > other

> > > > > > > > > > > organizations.

> > > > > > > > > > > 7. Kindly do not include your personal

> information

> > > > such

> > > > > as

> > > > > > > > phone

> > > > > > > > > > > number, address etc.

> > > > > > > > > > > 8. Please do not address the response to a

> > particular

> > > > > > > > individual

> > > > > > > > > > > since the message is going to the entire group.

> > > > > > > > > > > 9. Due to the large readership, all responses

> may

> > > not

> > > > be

> > > > > > > > posted.

> > > > > > > > > > > 10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify

the

> > > > posting,

> > > > > > if

> > > > > > > > > content

> > > > > > > > > > > is unclear or not appropriate for distribution

> to

> > the

> > > > > > group.

> > > > > > > > > > > 11. Please respond taking into consideration

the

> > > > novices,

> > > > > > > > youth,

> > > > > > > > > > > westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly

limit

> > the

> > > > use

> > > > > > to

> > > > > > > > > Sanskrit

> > > > > > > > > > > words only, rather provide the English word

with

> > > > Sanskrit

> > > > > > > > > bracketed

> > > > > > > > > > > wherever possible.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > MODERATOR

> > > > > > > > > > > Ram Ram

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

June 21, 2008

Hari Om

Re Saadhak Sia Ram's Query

From the perspective of God's divine play, nothing gets killed ! The

world is an eternal play of the God. To kill or get killed are very

common in this world- as far as animal life is concerned. Hence

basically there is nothing important about killing or getting

killed ! But, the human life form is the most valuable of all other

life forms. Human beings are supposed to be adhering certain norms

for living and there is a law – called Law of Karma – which operates

with reference to their conduct in human life. The said Law is not

applicable to animals and other life forms, as they are born to

exhaust their past karmas (deeds) ! God's eternal principles dictate

the future births, as based upon one's Karma in human life he is

placed in the cycle of birth and death in various forms of life.

Nothing gets destroyed in essence.

This discussion started on three independent queries. One- Telepathy.

Two- Why (or rather why not we should) kill any living being.? Three-

Why Pandavas should kill Kauravas ? I dealt with first two questions

only- with a rider that if time permits I shall give views about the

third. I also stated that killing is OK if there exist exceptional

or rare circumstances. Here in case of Mahabharat War there certainly

existed rare and exceptional circumstances. The laksha griha episode

in which a conspiracy was hatched to burn the Pandavas alive,'

Draupadi insult, clear backing out even after Pandavas went through

14 years of exile, etc were totally evil deeds. It is not that " peace

talks " were not held before the war. Emissaries were sent to

Kauravas, but they refused to give even 5 villages . War thereafter

remained the only alternative. There was no other alternative. Mind

it, in the world made by God ,there is a provision for fighting. It

is not that the wars have not been held in the history. But here the

war was made for a better tomorrow, not to satisfy any desires- and

after exhausting all other options. War was fought by " Kshatriyas "

whose primary duty is protection of humanity at large. Still, it was

greatness of Arjuna that he gave arguments and he was hesitant. This

war was fought by Pandavas within the peripherals of Dharma . They

did not have any selfish motives behind the same and hence they did

not incur any sins. Even today you don't incur a sin if you kill

someone say in self defense. But these are exceptional circumstances.

Any killing per se is bad and sinful only if that killing

eventually results in bad " karmic " fruits in the subsequent life of

that " Jeeva " ( Here I have quoted your opening remarks word by

word) – Sure ! You are right 100%. But in this war there were

reasons and circumstances which reasons fell squarely in the

exceptions category - as far as operation of Law of Karma was

concerned. ( Any law student will tell you that every law has some

exceptions- even if that law is God made Law of Karma ) The

arguments which were given in reply to Q no 2 were for the killings

which were not falling in the exception category of the Law of

Karma ! The reasons given by Lord Krishna were the enumeration of the

exceptions to the Law of Karma . Those reasons are not applicable

when we talk about killing of animals, foetus or Holy cow and that

too for the sake of pleasure or taste or ego or superiority. As such

there is no inconsistency in conclusions arrived at in my responses

to Q no. 2 and Q no 3 !!

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

, " sadhak_insight "

<sadhak_insight wrote:

>

> Namaste,

>

> Based on your following arguments, any killing per se is bad and

> sinful which eventually results in bad 'karmik' fruits in the

> subsequent life of that 'Jiva'. I have the following questions:

>

> 1. The background of Gitaji is the lurking war between the two

> cousins. Arjuna offers more or less the same argument to Bhagawan

> Krishna as you have offered about the killing of fellow beings on

> the battle field. Krishna counters Arjun's argument that it is

> Arjun's duty to fight the war because the 'Adharmik' forces are

> trying to destroy the 'Dharma'. Krishna gives several reasons as to

> why Arjun must fight even if it means killing thousands of people

in

> the battle. How do you reconcile your arguments with Krishna's

> central message to fight 'adharma'?

>

> Pranam,

>

> siaram

>

> ------------------------------

> Dear Sadaks,

>

> Was Kans able to kill baby Krishna? Was Hiranyaksh able to kill

> Prahalad? Was tribols able to kill Jada Bharat? Was the butcher

able

> to kill Adi Sankara? etc. There are so many. Sadhaks please note

> all the above divine persons offered themselves without any

> resistance to be killed. But what happened all of you know. How

come

> they are saved? Can anyone understand this concept? Why so many

> people were targeted point blank, but escaped ? Why so many

> survived intact even after 40 days under debris due to earth quake?

> With much advanced medical science some cases became cured without

> medical help? 80 years old man with heart failing at AIMS hospital

> was not treated due to age factor. His body developed new arteries

> and veins and the man lived 10 years more? Famous Malar hospital in

> Chennai whose director died with all medical needs at his command?

>

> Sadhaks I personally feel that stop pondering over this subject as

> you going to die any time amidst natural calamities, enemies,

> accidents etc. Ekanathji said, " I live today knowing tomorrow is

> not mine " . Living with hope that one will live next few weeks is in

> Maya. Then one has lost extremely valuable human life in only

asking

> questions, but NOT doing Sadhana of Bhagavath Samaranam.

> Life span is definitely insufficient to know all things on earth.

> But life span is surely enough to reach Bhagavan. Parikshit

attained

> moksha in seven days. Was he pondering over his situation? Another

> saint attained Moksha in 3 days listening upadesh from saint Asta

> Vakra.

>

> Seeing the world you are entangling yourself in maya. Seeing only

> Bhagavan (God) is surrender. One will be raising one question, " why

> killing " . But that leads to thousands of thoughts, questions and

> ultimately one remains where it started. Please concentrate on this

> point and understand.

>

> B.Sathyanarayan

> -------------------------------

> , " sadhak_insight "

> <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> >

> > Hari Om,

> >

> > I am addressing the first question reg telepathy, mind reading

etc

> > strictly as per guidelines ofModerator. Gitaji talks at many

> places

> > reg Jeeva being capable of becoming " all knowing " (sarvagya,

sarva

> > vit). Gitaji also refers re the Jnana Yogi that he first sees all

> in

> > him and then himself in all. For Bhakti Yogi also " to see God

> > everywhere and in everyone " is dictum. Karma yogi also considers

> all

> > as part of one and serves one and all selflessly. God gives Jeeva

> a

> > status as equal as himself but the title " jeeva " then ceases. Now

> > this is the position. If God can have power of telepathy, mind

> > reading etc then you can also have that power. I have no doubt on

> > this.Even Patanjaliji Maharaj has listed telepathy etc as

> > a " siddhi " which can be acquired by practice of Yoga

> >

> > That apart, but the counter question is where is the need for

> > Saadhak to acquire that power? As per question_ to know whether

> the

> > person is good or bad! But when God is existing in every one and

> you

> > are thinking of making him as medium then what kind of goodness

or

> > evilness remains to be seen? When everything is God (Gitaji 7:19)

> > where is the possibility of bad or good being present anywhere,

in

> > anybody?If you are good, your medium is good, then how can a soul

> > just like you, having same fundamentals like you can be bad? What

> > can you achieve by using mind reading etc. If you are good , the

> > entire universe is good, every iota of Brahmand is good? Why to

> use

> > God for that? To know somebody's mind. MIND! Mind which changes

> > every fraction of a second!

> >

> > The second question! Why kill any living being? Or rather " Why

not

> > to kill any living being " !

> > At the outset it actually does not matter from God's point of

view

> > as to who is getting killed. All his children and the creation

> > is " immortal " from his point of view. That is why he doesnot

> object

> > directly or puts the things to a grinding halt even if you kill

> any

> > one of his creations including his most loved creation _ the holy

> > Cow! What to say of a human killing another! That is the God _

> > watching, tolerating, the action of one child vis-a-vis his

> another

> > child! But he maintains the record, he has his own method of

> > bringing the errant child to his senses! He can afford to wait,

he

> > loves all equally. That is the point ofview of one element of the

> > trinity!

> >

> > The second element is the one who got killed. Nobody can get

> killed

> > as per Gita! (Chapter 2). One who got killed in fact would never

> > regret after getting killed because in fact he has become purer!

> In

> > fact he has reaped what he sowed and is now debt free! He in fact

> is

> > the happiest among the three- though to the third party he may be

> > appearing to be the helpless victim! But that is between him and

> God

> > only. The butcher cannot draw any points out of it.The butcher is

> on

> > a totally different wicket( unless there are exceptional

> > circumstances- very rare circumstances- the kind of circumstances

> > which if God permits me to list / elaborate upon, I shall do so

> for

> > mutual benefit while addressing the Question no 3 of this subject

> > topic). But the one who suffered or got killed is definitely on

> the

> > rise, is definitely moving towards the north- there is no doubt

on

> > this!

> >

> > Now come to the murderer!What right he had to annihilate any

> > creature from this world? Did he create them? Was he nourishing

or

> > feeding them?What harm those creatures caused to him? What was

the

> > mistake made vis-a-vis him by the holy Cow or by. Fish or by a

> > chicken or by a lamb or by a pig? Just for fun? Just to satisfy

> the

> > demands of tongue? Just to settle scores with an enemy? Just to

> feed

> > the Ego or show power? " Don't you know who I am " - to prove this

> to

> > the world? To continue with what you have seen others as doing?

If

> > you can kill why you should not kill? Taste! Everybody does it so

> I

> > should also?.God has made them for killing only and has made me

> > superior to them! All these arguments , thoughts are advocated.

> None

> > is valid! You had a licence of power, you misused that, you

> ignored

> > the basics of humanity and hence you will be stripped of your

> > powers! Did you ever realise what kind of pain the fish or

chicken

> > or cow goes through? No - so now realise that ? How? Become that!

> > That is then becomes your fate! That is then becomes the dictum

of

> > mother nature for you! That then becomes the punishment for you!

> >

> > That is why you should not kill! Itb makes no difference to the

> God

> > or World or the victim- it makes difference to you!

> >

> > Look at the type of difference the killng others can make to you?

> > You fall from the position of human being to the position of

> animal!

> > As a human being you could have gone to any heights - even become

> > God! But just to satisfy your tongue - you fell down to become an

> > animal! Surely now the tongue will be the centre of attraction!

> > Tongue as good as that of frog, as good as that of snake! As good

> as

> > that of Cuckoo! But what about you! That is why you should not

> kill

> > or motivate others to kill! He who gave you power to kill can

also

> > take that power away from you and give the same power to that

soul

> > whom you killed or to that soul who has been appointed by Him to

> > make you taste your own medicine! Be sure that when He does so,

> he

> > does with 100 times more intensity than what you did! He knows

> > better than you the principles of Maths and the principles of

> > interest calculation- simple, compound, and the rests of

> copounding

> > the interest- daily rest or monthly rests or the yearly rests!

> > Then where shall you be? That is why you should not kill! Don't

> > gfive the argument that you killed because some one hurt you! It

> > will not be accepted that easily. Be sure before giving that

> > argument as to whether you have never hurt anyone and what if he

> > also takes rhat stand!

> >

> > Many times we take the stand that in this world if we don't kill

> say

> > chickens or say lambs , the world will be full of them. Many

times

> > we say this world has got only one law- the strong wins and the

> weak

> > loses! How many think as to how and why this law came into

being?

> > Who is that weak ? Why is he weak? Why is some one strong? What

> are

> > the duties of one who is strong? Who made them weak or strong?

> Why ?

> > Can you not be made weak??? One who made you strong and some one

> > else as weak - is He not powerful enough to turn the tables? That

> is

> > why you should not kill!

> >

> > Saadhaks may give their arguments! They may ask as to whom the

> > father of Lord Rama, Dashratha, wanted actually to kill which act

> > ultimately resulted in death of Shravan Kumar! Saadhaks may ask

as

> > to why the 100 sons of Mother Gandhari got killed? In the

> questions

> > itself the answers will be there!

> >

> > As regards the argument that the world will be full of chickens

or

> > of Holy Cows or of lambs or of goats or the argument that the

> ocean

> > will not have space if we don't eat away fish or prawns or

> lobsters-

> > must first count their numbers and take their census in the world

> > vis-a-vis the human beings, they must take into account their

> > respective roles in making this earth worth living vis-a-vis the

> > role of human beings and then see who is more essential!

> >

> > Jai Shree Krishna

> >

> > Vyas, N B

> >

-

> > , " sadhak_insight "

> > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Shree Hari

> > > Ram Ram

> > >

> > > To All...

> > > Please kindly re-read the guidelines for this group and please

> > > kindly respond with (supporting Gita shlokas), limiting

personal

> > > opinions, being concise and to the point and addressing the

> topic

> > at

> > > hand, and not calling out any specific sadhak's name . Thank

> you,

> > >

> > > From the Moderator

> > > Ram Ram

> > > -------------------------------

-

> --

> > >

> > > Hari Om !

> > >

> > > 1. Can we communicate through this common factor (Telepathy,

> > > mind reading, knowing that a person is good or bad and so on).

> > > Suppose we get a piece of mirror broken part from a bigger

mirror

> > > which is being kept on the wall. The bigger mirror reflects very

> > > well because of its good quality and pure reception. It is being

> > > cleaned every day with a lot of care and so the reflection

> falling

> > > on it is very much clear.

> > >

> > > As regards to the piece broken from it, it is being ignored

and

> > put

> > > it away as waste and no body do the dusting or cleaning of it.

A

> > lot

> > > of dust accumulates on it and the reflection falling upon it is

> not

> > > at all clear due to the veil of dust.

> > >

> > > Our mind is like a broken piece of mirror from the Eternal

Bigger

> > > one of the kind. It needs regular dusting for good quality

> > > performance. Imagine the amount of negative thoughts such as

> > hatred,

> > > envy, jealousy, anger, ego, etc., that flow through our mind

> > > unknowingly. They pollute our mind as the case of the dusty

> mirror.

> > > We need to regular cleansing of our mind to purify it so as to

> get

> > a

> > > pure reception from the eternal Consciousness. Unless our

> internal

> > > equipments (mind, intellect, etc.) are not purified, how can we

> > > expect good results from it? Suppose our mind is a polluted

> vessel,

> > > we are not going to benefit the milk or nectar which is poured

in

> > > it. First we have to keep our inner equipments clean, and then

> > > whatever is poured in it is going to benefit us.

> > >

> > > When we are pure and regular in dhyana, our mind gets connected

> > with

> > > the collective minds in the Consciousness and we get intuitions,

> > > etc. We will be able to read others mind, by looking into their

> > > eyes, as eyes reflect the kind of feelings and thoughts they

> > > entertain in their mind.

> > >

> > > There is no need to know the other person whether good or bad.

> It

> > is

> > > we that need introspection as to what type of thoughts coming

to

> > our

> > > mind and how to improve the quality of our thoughts. Direct our

> > > thoughts to the divine by different sadhanas prescribed by a

> > > Realized Guru or as per the Scriptures, then we get purified.

> > > Purification of our hearts should be for the realization of the

> > > Infinite and not for getting sidhis. God is greater than all

> kinds

> > > of sidhis. Once we get merged into the Divine, we no more need

> > > anything like telepathy, mind reading or the need to know

others'

> > > minds.

> > >

> > > When a flower is bloomed, its fragrance attracts the bees and

> > > butterflies. It needs no advertisement. Bees and butterflies get

> > > attracted to it, which is standing still on the plant. When we

> get

> > > purified, good people naturally get attracted to the goodness

in

> > us.

> > >

> > > If a person is bad or has committed great sins, even God is not

> > > ignoring him. He is getting all the blessings as other

punyatmas

> > are

> > > getting. He gets oxygen to breath, water from the rains, sun

> light,

> > > everything as others do. Learned Sages do not consider any one

> papi

> > > even if they committed great sins. They find in him some good

> > > qualities that lie dormant in seed form in his mind, and they

> > > stimulate the dormant good qualities in him. So he gets evolved

> and

> > > purified. Likewise, we need not avoid any people, if we are

> > purified

> > > enough ourselves, people who have committing sins or whose

> actions

> > > are bad, get purified with our company (sat-sang).

> > >

> > > So there is no need to know the mind of others and trying to

> > correct

> > > them, but be a model for them to learn something from you.

> > >

> > > 2. Each person has God Consciousness(Narayana) in him/her

> > > Serving other person is serving God (Narayana).

> > > Why kill any living being?

> > > Why Pandvas should kill Kauravas?

> > >

> > > In Bhagawad Gita, Lord Krishna is not asking Arjuna to `Kill

> > > Kauravas', but to do it duty at the battle-field. A soldier is

> not

> > > killing the enemy soldiers. But just performing his duty as per

> the

> > > High Command. He is not killing them for his own selfish

motive.

> He

> > > is saving his country.

> > >

> > > Suppose you are Arjuna, then Lord Krishna reminds you to do

your

> > own

> > > duty wherever you are, and dedicate the results obtaining from

> them

> > > to surrender to God.

> > >

> > > Lord Krishna indirectly asking us keeping Arjuna as a model, to

> > > introspect ourselves. When Arjuna finds himself not capable of

> > > performing his duties, the skills he acquired all these years

> have

> > > gone mere waste. (Imagine a heart surgeon who is expert in his

> job,

> > > but gets worried and turns away from his duty, when he learns

the

> > > patient in front of him is his own daughter). So Lord Krishna

> asks

> > > Arjuna to turn his attention towards his inner Self (to turn

> within

> > > and introspect himself). (What kind of thoughts that are coming

> and

> > > going in our mind, that type of personality we have. It is

> > said, " As

> > > the thoughts – so the mind, as the mind – so the actions, as the

> > > actions – so the character of the person " ). Then Arjuna saw

there

> > > were innumerable negative thoughts in his mind (number hundred

> and

> > > thousand in Sanskrit denotes `many' and not the exact number

> > > mentioned) like the 100 Kauravas and the positive thoughts he

> > > entertained were only a handful (5 Pandavas). In order to become

> > > brave and confident to perform any karma. He had to eradicate

all

> > > the negative thoughts that came on his way, and for that purpose

> > > Lord Krisha is asking him to eradicate the negative thoughts

> > > standing on his pathway (Kauravas) surrendering to the Lord the

> > > results of the karmas. When God is giving us everything, and

> making

> > > us an instrument, He is working through us, how can we be proud

> of

> > > our actions?

> > >

> > > Pranams,

> > > Vanaja Ravi Nair.

> > > -------------------------------

-

> --

> > -

> > > my humble parnaams !

> > > thanks for explaining ,replying to doubts raised by me.

> > > Bhagwat Gita, is the oceon of Knowldge, the dynamic spirituality

> > > Here and Now ... makes the Sadhak instruments of Krishna .

> > >

> > > As I understand, it is the force acting through the

instruments

> of

> > > doer.. As all the instruments namly mind, body intellect, the

> frame

> > > of Mind through which the force is acting really belongs to

> > > Ishwara.. the instrument is mere nimatmatram..

> > >

> > > Regards to All sadhaks of this forum..

> > > thanks once again for bearing the ignorance of a ignorant

> child..

> > >

> > > humble servant..

> > > kuldip

> > > (Kuldip Suri)

> > >

> > > -------------------------------

-

> --

> > --

> > > , " sadhak_insight "

> > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

> > > >

> > > > This is to clarify my understanding on Kuldipji's

> > > questions/doubts.

> > > > I am grateful for such opportunity.

> > > >

> > > > The teaching of Bhagwat Geeta is better understood in the

> > > > Upanishadic context as it is rightly called Krishna, a fit

> Gwala

> > > > (cowman) who has milked the cow of Upanaishadas and milk is

> > Geeta.

> > > >

> > > > Jivatma is translated as soul, under the spell of Maya, lives

> > with

> > > > the impressions of sanskaras, unfulfilled desires(vaasanas),

> > > > conditioned into believing and acting as a separate entity.

> > > >

> > > > It's as if space in the clay pot considers itself a separate

> > from

> > > > the universal space in ignorance! Or an ear-ring considering

> > > itself

> > > > an independent existence apart from Gold! This is perishable-

> > Kshar

> > > > residing as though in the body which is also perishable. So

> that

> > > > which is perishable cannot be the ultimate truth of Jivatma-

> > soul.

> > > > However, for explaining our ignorance, Krishna mentiones this

> > > > entity. This is what goes from body to body carrying with it

> > > > impressions of karmas, like air carrying foul smell or

> fragrance

> > > to

> > > > distances until exhausted and become free(pure). Hence in

> > > ignorance

> > > > or in dream it is felt as if soul is residing in the body

> > (meaning

> > > > limitations are superimposed by Jivatma on itself), but truth

> is

> > > > otherwise!

> > > >

> > > > Then Ishwara is Imperishable being of Jivatma, manifested

> Saguna

> > > > Brahman, not under the spell of Maya. These two entities are

> so-

> > > > called only but are really ONE, Jiva and Shiva or Jiva and

> > > Ishwara,

> > > > one being ignorance and the other being the reality or

> Kutastha

> > as

> > > > referred to body or any specific object's impersishable being

> > > > aspect! One can say Jiva is such a mixture of so called two!

> > > >

> > > > Now Pure Consciousness or Supreme Being is the substratum, so

> to

> > > > speak, for apparantly(not in reality when realization takes

> > place)

> > > > two entities to BE.

> > > >

> > > > We are really that Consciousness right now when we let go of

> our

> > > > ignorance of taking ourselves as limited by body-mind-

> intellect.

> > > We

> > > > can clearly see the stuff of all being is Consciousness,

> because

> > > we

> > > > experience all objects as mere perceptions/conceptions with

> > names

> > > > and forms existing in Consciousness as Consciousness! It is

as

> > if

> > > we

> > > > wake up from the dream of ignorance. Then body is experienced

> > > being

> > > > in mind as perception of sensations, mind, in turn,

> experienced

> > > > being in Consciousness when thoughts are stirring. Here the

> mind

> > > is

> > > > really subtle body - perishable carrying the vaasanas-

> > impressions

> > > as

> > > > explained earlier in to next body.

> > > >

> > > > It is important to see that Krishna or Rishis are not

> validating

> > > the

> > > > Jivatma as reality of us, only an explanation or a model

> > depicting

> > > > our condition under the influence of Maya.

> > > >

> > > > We need to start seeing the truth that we are such

> Consciousness

> > > and

> > > > not give any credibility to that which is perishable! We

were,

> > are

> > > > and will be Imperishable Consciousness or Awareness or

Brhman,

> > > Pure

> > > > and ONE BEING of all beings.

> > > >

> > > > Please see this experiential reality of ourselves!

> > > >

> > > > Thus we explained the three purushas of the verses of Geeta:

> > > > Jivatma, Ishwara, Brahman.

> > > >

> > > > All of them point ultimately to ONE Experience of Conscious

> > Being

> > > > never to be denied during Waking, dreaming and sleeping

states

> > of

> > > > our existence! After the body disintegrates into Bhutas, we

> are

> > > > still That which we were before and during the life, Eternal

> > Being!

> > > >

> > > > Namaskars... Pratap Bhatt

> > > >

> > > > -----------------------------

-

> --

> > --

> > > -

> > > > , " sadhak_insight "

> > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > Death and life is occuring everytime in our lives. At time

> of

> > > > > changes in residense from one city to another, the new

VASA

> > is

> > > > like

> > > > > new born in a new environment. The word NiVAS or AVASA

comes

> > > from

> > > > > VASA (under which) or VASANSI Jeernani ( old house). When

> one

> > > > > changes business place, or goes for studies in University,

> > > kicked

> > > > > out from a job, changed job for better job or taken

> > retirement,

> > > > and

> > > > > lives in forest, all these are rebirths, some are by choice

> > and

> > > > some

> > > > > by compulsons like accidents, suicides and diseases and

> > > > calamities,

> > > > > and some by samadhi. In all cases, individual is same but

> > > his/her

> > > > > environment and active worlds change. When individual moves

> > from

> > > > one

> > > > > place to another, then he carries most valuable assest that

> > > would

> > > > be

> > > > > needed at next life (new place). Similar is death, which is

> > very

> > > > far

> > > > > off journey and one needs to carry very litle information

of

> > > great

> > > > > value.

> > > > >

> > > > > If one has so many houses, one in Delhi, one in Mumbai, one

> on

> > > NY,

> > > > > one in London and at all these places he has certain

> families

> > > > united

> > > > > and in love, then, the owner of these so many houses lives

> > where

> > > > he

> > > > > pleases, and not bound to maintain it because the occupants

> do

> > > it.

> > > > > Sri Krishna is that who has infinite houses and lives where

> he

> > > > > pleases and is not bound except by love. If for example, my

> > > mother

> > > > > who is like Sri Krishna has five houses in different cities

> > > built

> > > > by

> > > > > her five sons. And she is free to travel any where but

> chooses

> > > to

> > > > > live where she feels intense love and need. She is free

from

> > > life

> > > > > and death because she is not owner of any house but lives

in

> > all

> > > > > houses, and is taken care of, and free from attachment and

> > > > ahankaar.

> > > > > Sri Krishna is chtrazya (knower of ) all knowers

> (kstrazya).

> > > > > Regards

> > > > > K G

> > > > > (krishna gopal)

> > > > > ---------------------------

-

> > > > > Dear divine souls !!!!

> > > > >

> > > > > my humble parnaams to ALL.

> > > > >

> > > > > Pratap Bhai...you wrote in your previous mail..

> > > > >

> > > > > Many may still think and believe Atma is residing in

> > individual

> > > > mind-

> > > > > body, existing separately in each. This is too simplistic

> view

> > if

> > > > > not properly investigated..

> > > > >

> > > > > 1. if individual soul(jivatma) does not resides in

> individual

> > > > > natural person...then who brought sanskara and Karmic link

> of

> > > past

> > > > > Life to present Life..(If atma is considered universal

> > principal)

> > > > >

> > > > > 2.When a person dies which part of the Being take away all

> > > Karmic

> > > > > Acts of present Life to future births.. to prove my point

i

> > am

> > > > > quoting few Verses of Gita Ji.

> > > > >

> > > > > Chapter 15. v16

> > > > > There are two purshas in the world,the immutable and the

> > > mutable;

> > > > > the mutable is all these existences the Kutastha is called

> > the

> > > > > immutable.

> > > > > 17.

> > > > > But other than these two is the highest spirit called the

> > > supereme

> > > > > Self,who enters the three worlds and upbears them, the

> > > > imperisahble

> > > > > Lord.

> > > > > 18

> > > > > Since I am beyond the mutable and am greater and higher

even

> > > then

> > > > > the immutable in the world and in the Veda I am proclaimed

> as

> > > the

> > > > > Purshottama.

> > > > > here Gita clearly says..Kshare sarwani bhutani..

> > > > > all creatures are Many souls in the Cosmic Play. Each soul

> > > resides

> > > > > or is present in the natural personality which carry

forward

> > the

> > > > > experienc of that Life to nextlife and take birth with new

> > > > > personality.

> > > > > the embodied soul (Jivatama) is purush is residing in the

> > Heart

> > > of

> > > > > all creatures..

> > > > > Ishwara sarwa bhutanbaaam hrideshe arjun tishtti..Iswara is

> > > > residing

> > > > > in the heart of all

> > > > > creatures (B.Gita)18.61

> > > > > If Jiva the sanatan Ansh(is)not residing in heart please

> > explain

> > > > > these verses.to clear doubts.. Why Sri Krishna used these

> > > words...

> > > > > The three purshas..namely...

> > > > > 1.Kshar....all these creatures(Many)

> > > > > 2.Akshar Bhrahman....nirgun nirakaarinactive Brahman.

> > > > > 3.Puroshottam..the supereme Brahman Sagun sawroop the

> > > > > Lord who is Controlling the world through His Shakti (Apara)

> > > > >

> > > > > looking forwards to find answers from ALL..

> > > > >

> > > > > kuldip suri

> > > > >

> > > > > ---------------------------

-

> --

> > --

> > > -

> > > > > , " sadhak_insight "

> > > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

> > > > > > I am grateful to Kuldipji for asking clarifying questions

> on

> > > > > answers

> > > > > > I shared on the subject.

> > > > > > At the time of death of a person, gross physical body

> > > > > disintegrates

> > > > > > into five universal elements(earth, water, fire, air,

> space)

> > > > just

> > > > > as

> > > > > > it was integrated from them at birth. Thus person was

> always

> > > > made

> > > > > > from these universal elements and never can survive as an

> > > > > individual

> > > > > > isolating him from the totality of being.

> > > > > > During his/her life, a person lives as if he/she is an

> > > > > independently

> > > > > > existing and separate from the totality of all beings. He

> is

> > > > > > conditioned by likes and dislikes, personal desires,

> genetic

> > > > > > conditioning, culture, traditions, society, education,

> etc.

> > > and

> > > > > > acquires vaasanas, subtle tendencies. Such traits form

his

> > > subtle

> > > > > > (sukshma) body. A person is controlled/driven by this

> subtle

> > > > body,

> > > > > > called body of ignorance consisting of past memory,

> personal

> > > > > > history, thoughts and feelings. This is the result of

Atma-

> > > > > > Consciousness identifying itself with this subtle body we

> > > > > generally

> > > > > > call soul. Such a soul departs upon death to merge with

> > > > universal

> > > > > > subtle body made of collective ignorance of all. From

> such

> > > > > > ignorance, new bodies are born, ignorance being the life

> as

> > > > > separate

> > > > > > ego in separate body. This is just a belief not

> investigated.

> > > > > > Thus the cycle of birth and death which goes on until

> > > > realization

> > > > > > happens to that person in some life span, that he/she was

> > > never

> > > > > such

> > > > > > a person bound in body-mind organism. He was always

> > limitless

> > > > > Atman,

> > > > > > pure and undivided Consciousness ever existent and

> universal

> > > > > > Reality. Everything, sentients and insentients are within

> > Him,

> > > > > > meaning in Consciousness He is. Now we can answer

> questions

> > > > > raised

> > > > > > here.

> > > > > > 1)Shraaddh is performed for departed soul so that his/her

> > > subtle

> > > > > > body may find some peace on its onward journey and shed

> its

> > > > > bondage

> > > > > > to some degree. This however becomes rituals on the part

> of

> > > > those

> > > > > > who perform it due to their own ignorance. But it has

some

> > > value

> > > > > for

> > > > > > those who perform with shraddha and humility and good

will

> > for

> > > > the

> > > > > > departed.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > 2) As explained, it is the subtle body of ignorance of

not

> > > > > realizing

> > > > > > its true nature that goes through narakas as if such

> bodies

> > > are

> > > > > > being recycled back to life to give another chance to

> > realize

> > > > the

> > > > > > true universality of Atman that He is, which is never

> bound

> > in

> > > > the

> > > > > > body in the first place.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > 3) As long as we live our lives with this separation

> called

> > > ego

> > > > > and

> > > > > > consider us doers of our deeds, we are bound by ignorance

> > into

> > > > > such

> > > > > > thinking and suffering along the way. When such a person

> > > > realizes

> > > > > > his true self as Consciousness, Absolute existence

Itself,

> > > > running

> > > > > > the show through his body-mind instrument, he/she is free

> to

> > > > play

> > > > > > whatever role he/she is assigned by Divine Consciousness.

> > > Until

> > > > > such

> > > > > > time this happens he lives as if in a dream world. TO

wake

> > up

> > > > from

> > > > > > such a dream is to live in Bliss! Then as body-mind

> persons

> > we

> > > > > > just play our roles in a drama/dream but never suffer

> while

> > > > > playing

> > > > > > the roles.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > We are always free from predetermined-destiny as such

> > > > > Consciousness.

> > > > > > However, it may appear to a person who is ignorant of

> > his/her

> > > > > > universality as if bound in such roles. Our immortality

is

> > in

> > > > > taking

> > > > > > our true stand and lving as Consciousness-Atman while our

> > body

> > > > is

> > > > > > mortal, and incidental for playing role.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > 4) God has no plan, just celebration of life through all

> > > > creation

> > > > > > which He Himself Is! We can realize the truth in this

life

> > if

> > > we

> > > > > > long for such knowledge intensely. When we do, our

> > questions

> > > > > > disappear leaving us fulfilled, in our Bliss. Then, who

is

> > > there

> > > > > to

> > > > > > ask questions as to what is the purpose of this creation?

> It

> > > is

> > > > > God-

> > > > > > Atma-Brahman all the way in celebration!

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Once again, we are always free from destiny as Atman,

> always

> > > > > taking

> > > > > > right actions in the moment for greater good. But if we

> > think

> > > > > > ourselves to be individual ego then we are controlled by

> > world

> > > > > > around us, by destiny as our Conditioning!

> > > > > > If we live as universal Consciousness-Atman, we can never

> > rob

> > > > > > another person. Our role is to be responsible for the

> > entire

> > > > > > universe! Only as individual " me " based person may rob

> > another

> > > > one.

> > > > > > Pratap hoping this helps!

> > > > > >

> > > > > > (Pratap Bhatt)

> > > > > > -------------------------

-

> --

> > --

> > > --

> > > > -

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Dear Sadak,

> > > > > > In Bhagavath Geetha, Bhagavan describes a character

> as " Guna

> > > > > > Theethan " . This person lives very calm, whatever may come

> > and

> > > > > > whatever may happen. He does NOT ask for God`s help. He

> > never

> > > > gets

> > > > > > perturbed by happiness or sorrow. He never asks anything

> > even

> > > if

> > > > I

> > > > > > (Bhagavan) appears to give him with a boon. I (Bhagavan)

> > likes

> > > > > such

> > > > > > a devotee, very much.

> > > > > > Refering a sadak writing below: Guna Theethan knows that

> it

> > is

> > > > > God`s

> > > > > > responsibility and never wants to disturb God. He knows

> that

> > > God

> > > > > was

> > > > > > always caring and will always care. He himself has

> > surrendered

> > > > to

> > > > > > God. He sees no difference if magic happens or death

takes

> > > > > place.

> > > > > > He serves but does not think he is serving God` s people

> as

> > he

> > > > has

> > > > > > removed that- I & Mine.

> > > > > > If one should think he is serving then the phala Karma

> > (action

> > > > of

> > > > > > serving) goes to that person. If one serves without any

> > > thought,

> > > > > > then the pala goes to Bhagavan.

> > > > > > Naradha thought that why people are not saying, Narayana.

> He

> > > was

> > > > > > made to realise through a Brahmin who never said

Narayana.

> > > > > Referance

> > > > > > Padma Puranam. Sathybama thought she was serving

Bhagavan.

> > She

> > > > was

> > > > > > made to realise through Sri Krishna Thulabaaram. Bheema

> > > thought

> > > > he

> > > > > > was mighter before Krishna and was made to realise that

> > Bheema

> > > > was

> > > > > > unable to lift even a monkey's (Sri Hanuman in disguise)

> > tail.

> > > > > > Referance Maha Bharatham.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Sadaks-- Bagavan is " SERVAGNIYAM- SERVASATHAN " . HE gave

> > mother

> > > > > > devaki all 7 children killed by Kans. HE gave HIS guru

> > > Sandeepan

> > > > > his

> > > > > > son who died long before.

> > > > > > Sadaks--This does not mean we can ask and HE will give.

HE

> > > knows

> > > > > > what to give.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Let us all be like Guna Theethan (by His grace)

> > > > > > B.Sathyanarayan

> > > > > >

> > > > > > -------------------------

-

> --

> > --

> > > --

> > > > -

> > > > > > , " sadhak_insight "

> > > > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Dear Sadaks and " hitsoftindia "

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Mother (Maatha), Father (Phitta), Spiritual Guide

(Guru)

> > and

> > > > > > Deivam.

> > > > > > > Maatha is the first step on earth, Pittha 2nd

education,

> > > Guru

> > > > 3rd

> > > > > > > step to Gynana marg 3rd step and Deivam (God) 4th step

> > final

> > > to

> > > > > > > Moksha. Ultimate goal of any living form is Liberation.

> So

> > > > > mother,

> > > > > > > father and Guru has been with us in several births. But

> we

> > > > > continue

> > > > > > > this cycle of birth and death without reaching

divinity.

> > > > Parents

> > > > > > and

> > > > > > > Guru have their limitations. But God is unlimited. To

> > reach

> > > the

> > > > > > > stage of Dharma you need virtuous actions (Karmas).

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Examples: Harischandra was to behead his wife.

> Viswamitra

> > > > stopped

> > > > > > > and praised the dharmic act. Sandikeswarar (a famous

> > Shiva

> > > > > > Devotee)

> > > > > > > he regularly used to do abishek to Bagavan Shiva made

by

> > > > himself

> > > > > > out

> > > > > > > of sand. His father got angry on that act and rushed to

> > kick

> > > > the

> > > > > > > sand mould (Shiva) on which Sandikeswarar was pouring

> > milk.

> > > > When

> > > > > > the

> > > > > > > Son hit his father`s leg with Dharba (holy dry grass),

> the

> > > > > father's

> > > > > > > leg was chopped off. Realisation took place.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Yudhistera was asked by Yeksha to take a boon to save

> one

> > of

> > > > his

> > > > > > four

> > > > > > > brothers who was lying dead. Yudhistra asked for the

> > > youngest.

> > > > > > > Yaksha asked to Yudistra why he has not opted for

Arjuna

> > or

> > > > > Bheema

> > > > > > > who could be helpful in war. Yudhistra said he is there

> to

> > > do

> > > > > last

> > > > > > > rights of his mother, but if Shahadev is not brought to

> > life

> > > > > there

> > > > > > > is no one to do last rights of his mother. Besides

> asking

> > for

> > > > > > > Arjuna/Bheema, would be a selfish act.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > If mother should go Mad, then it is son` s duty to take

> > her

> > > > away

> > > > > > > from society and live with her. But if mother becomes

> > threat

> > > to

> > > > > > > son/daughter life, and society at large, then one needs

> to

> > > do

> > > > > what

> > > > > > > is beneficial and less harmful to more people at large.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Bagavan Parasuram one of the 10 Avathar had chopped of

> his

> > > > > mother`

> > > > > > s

> > > > > > > head just to abide by his father` s order. Later his

> > father

> > > > very

> > > > > > > satisfied asked Parasuram what boon he wanted.

Parasuram

> > > asked

> > > > > his

> > > > > > > father that to return his mother back to life. 1st

Matha

> > > > Vakiyam

> > > > > > > Paripalanam, next higher step father Vakiyam, next Guru

> > > > Vakiyam,

> > > > > > and

> > > > > > > highest is obeying GOD`S words without asking any

> question.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Example: During war in Kurushetra, Bagavan says to

> > > > Yudistara, "

> > > > > to

> > > > > > > shout out that Ashvadhama died " . Yudistatra refused to

> say

> > > lie.

> > > > > > > Bagavan asks Bheema to kill an elephant called

> Ashwadhama.

> > > > Bheema

> > > > > > > kills the elephant without any question even in mind.

> Then

> > > > > sadhaks

> > > > > > > you all know what happened.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Much later when Pandavas die, Yudhistara meets Sri

> Krishna

> > in

> > > > > > > heavens. Bheema was in heaven before Yudhisthir.

> > > > > > > Yudhistara asks Sri Krishna why Bheema was first?

> > Bagavan

> > > > says,

> > > > > > > Bheema did what I (BHagavan) said without questioning,

> but

> > > you

> > > > > > > Yudhistara you only did what you were asked to say,

> only

> > > after

> > > > > > > questioning.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Taken from the perspective of " Vasudeva Sarvam " , the

one

> > > being

> > > > > > killed and one performing the act of killing are the same

> > > Sriman

> > > > > > Narayana.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Bagavan in Geetha clearly says, " I am in everything but

> I

> > > not

> > > > > > that " .

> > > > > > > Bagavan is in you but HE is not the body. Body

functions

> > as

> > > per

> > > > > > > Karmas but Bagavan remains witness. Gynaneswar moved

> > walls

> > > > > > (achetanam). The wall had the power of Bagavan but

Bagavan

> > is

> > > > not

> > > > > > wall. Prahlad showed Narashima (God) in a pillar but

> Bagavan

> > > is

> > > > > not

> > > > > > that pillar.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Simply understand this that GOD is Omnipresent and let

> > your

> > > > mind

> > > > > > not

> > > > > > > go too deep into sastras. Adi Sankara said that going

> deep

> > > in

> > > > > > Sastras you may offset yourself from GOD.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Namaste

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > B.Sathyanarayan

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > -----------------------

-

> -

> > > > > > > Shree Hari

> > > > > > > Ram Ram

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Seek help from God, by placing your mother in God's

lap,

> > and

> > > > > > praying

> > > > > > > to God, " Bhagavan - she is now Your responsibility. I

> am

> > > > > unable

> > > > > > to take care of the situation on my own. Only You can

take

> > > care

> > > > of

> > > > > > her. You have been doing so all along, but I have been

> > > thinking

> > > > > > that it is me. Please take what belongs to you back to

> > you.

> > > > You

> > > > > > only take care of her, I cannot do it " In this manner,

> > > > surrender

> > > > > > her over to God and He will surely take care of her. You

> > will

> > > > see

> > > > > > the magic as Pujya Swamiji has said on number of

> occasions.

> > > In

> > > > > the

> > > > > > mean time continue to do all the necessary seva as if she

> > > > belongs

> > > > > to

> > > > > > God and you are serving His people. It is no longer your

> > > > problem,

> > > > > > you are only serving God's people (not your mother). Be

> at

> > > ease

> > > > > and

> > > > > > peace ! You will see the magic.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > A Sadhak

> > > > > > > -----------------------

-

> --

> > --

> > > -

> > > > > > > parnaaams...

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > dear Pratap Bhatt,

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > please clarify few doubts....

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > 1.If Atman is Universal Principal...after the death of

a

> > > > person..

> > > > > > > why we Hindus practice Sharaads and other rituals to

> make

> > > way

> > > > > for

> > > > > > the departed soul.for its easy passage....

> > > > > > > 2.The Different Narkas as described in the Book Gruer

> > > Purana..

> > > > > > > is it merely Myth?... as Atman cannot be divided and

> > > > > touched..who

> > > > > > goes

> > > > > > > through those Dark Worlds mentioned in the Book.

> > > > > > > 3.you further wrote..our roles including dying as

> assigned

> > > in

> > > > > the

> > > > > > script, which is written, directed, played and watched

> by

> > > God

> > > > > > through us! Roles are mortals but " we " who play these

> > roles

> > > > are

> > > > > > One mortal Conscious Being.

> > > > > > > If each and every event is predermmined, already

written

> > as

> > > > our

> > > > > > role...then when a person robs another, what is his

> fault ?

> > as

> > > > the

> > > > > > script is already written ?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > What was God 's purpose of this Creation..if every

thing

> > He

> > > > > > already wrote?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Thanks..

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > kuldip suri

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > -----------------------

-

> --

> > --

> > > --

> > > > > > > , " sadhak_insight "

> > > > > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Insightful answers are given already on this subject

> by

> > > > > Sadhakas.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I want to emphasize some points I see important.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Many may still think and believe Atma is residing in

> > > > individual

> > > > > > > mind-

> > > > > > > > body, existing separately in each. This is too

> > simplistic

> > > > view

> > > > > if

> > > > > > > > not properly investigated.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Atman is ONE unique experience of Being which is also

> at

> > > the

> > > > > same

> > > > > > > > time knowingness or Consciousness we all share. Just

> as

> > > space

> > > > > > > cannot

> > > > > > > > be divided or corrupted by objects of the world,

> > > > Consciousness,

> > > > > > > > subtlest than space, cannot be divided, nor touched,

> nor

> > > > > > > > differentiated as separate objects. Objects are

> > perceived

> > > by

> > > > > > Atman

> > > > > > > > and are also made up of the same vastue as Atman or

> > > > > consciousness

> > > > > > > we

> > > > > > > > experience as thoughts or feelings creating apparant

> > > > > separations

> > > > > > > > among conceived objects. Upon inquiry one may

discover

> > > Atman

> > > > > to

> > > > > > be

> > > > > > > > impersonal, infinite, ONE Wholeness, homogeneous in

> > > nature.

> > > > > This

> > > > > > > is

> > > > > > > > Absolute reality or Brahman. Atman is Brahman,

> proclaimed

> > > > > > > > Upanishadic sages!

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Brahman appears diverse as nature with all sentient

> and

> > > > > > insentient

> > > > > > > > beings trigunatmik in nature. This is relative truth

> of

> > > > > > everything

> > > > > > > > that a mind can know. It is like a movie manifesting

> > > > diversity

> > > > > > > from

> > > > > > > > ONE light of projector passing through films, or a

> dream

> > > > > > > manifesting

> > > > > > > > many objects in one mind.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Once known for what it is, our true nature, this

> > > > consciousness

> > > > > of

> > > > > > > > being is realized as eternal, immortal. Now the

world

> of

> > > > > > > relativity

> > > > > > > > becomes leela or drama, so to speak. In such a play

we

> > > enjoy

> > > > > > > playing

> > > > > > > > our roles including dying as assigned in the script,

> > which

> > > is

> > > > > > > > written, directed, played and watched by God through

> > us!

> > > > Roles

> > > > > > > are

> > > > > > > > mortals but " we " who play these roles are One

immortal

> > > > > Conscious

> > > > > > > > Being.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > To play our roles in the drama in the best possible

> way

> > is

> > > > the

> > > > > > > only

> > > > > > > > thing we can do once we are convinced it is so! This

> is

> > why

> > > > > > > Pandavas

> > > > > > > > killed Kauravas(bodies), and this is also why it is

> said

> > > Yada

> > > > > > > yadahi

> > > > > > > > dharmasya.........

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > In the play of Mahabharata Arjuna was enlightened by

> > Lord,

> > > > the

> > > > > > > > supeme Consciousness!Kauravas played the roles of

evil

> > > > beings

> > > > > and

> > > > > > > > died in war and thus Dharma was restablished all per

> the

> > > > > script.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Namaskar......Pratap

> > > > > > > > (Pratap Bhatt)

> > > > > > > > ---------------------

-

> --

> > --

> > > --

> > > > --

> > > > > --

> > > > > > --

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > , " sadhak_insight "

> > > > > > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Shree Hari

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Ram Ram

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > As Mr. Naga Narayanaji explained so beautifully

that

> > > this

> > > > war

> > > > > > > had

> > > > > > > > to

> > > > > > > > > be waged for the righteousness sake after

exhausting

> > all

> > > > the

> > > > > > > > > peaceful means to resolve the issues.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Also, as Nagaji pointed out that the weakness has

> been

> > > > there

> > > > > > all

> > > > > > > > > along with the Hindus, they have not stood up to

the

> > > > occasion

> > > > > > > when

> > > > > > > > > they should have, while facing foreign invasions

> over

> > > the

> > > > > > years.

> > > > > > > > > Perhaps they thought they would be doing Violence

> > > (Himsa)

> > > > if

> > > > > > > they

> > > > > > > > > fought back. Swami Vivekananda pounded this

message

> > of

> > > > > > strength

> > > > > > > > > again and again to wake up the Indian masses

against

> > the

> > > > > > > > prevailing

> > > > > > > > > lethargy and weakness.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > While in delusion, Arjuna too says in Gitaji (1-36):

> > > > > > > > > " O Janaradana, what joy we can be derive by slaying

> > the

> > > > sons

> > > > > > > of

> > > > > > > > > Dhrtarastra, sin alone will accrue to us by

> killing

> > > these

> > > > > > > > felons " .

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Lord Krishna scolds Arjuna in Gitaji (2-33):

> > > > > > > > > " Now, if you will not wage such a righteous war,

> then,

> > > > > > > abandoning

> > > > > > > > > your duty and losing your reputation, you will

incur

> > > sin " .

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > An interesting question - is it really fair even to

> > > raise a

> > > > > > > doubt

> > > > > > > > > about Pandvas killing Kaurvas in the Mahabharat war?

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Few observations to ponder over:

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > This was a Dharma Yudha fought in Kurukshetra which

> > has

> > > > been

> > > > > > > > called

> > > > > > > > > as a Dharma Kshetra, in the presence of Lord

> Himself,

> > > who

> > > > is

> > > > > > the

> > > > > > > > > protector and upholder of the Dharma. Would Lord

> > Krishna

> > > > not

> > > > > > > stop

> > > > > > > > > this war if He felt the war was not being faught

for

> > the

> > > > > right

> > > > > > > > > reasons.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > How would the mankind receive the marvelous message

> of

> > > > > Gitaji

> > > > > > if

> > > > > > > > it

> > > > > > > > > there were not the unique setting of this war.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Gitaji says it is not the actions which matter but

> > > > motivation

> > > > > > > > behind

> > > > > > > > > them which is important. (Ref: Gitaji (18-17)

> > > > > > > > > " He whose mind is free from self sense (egoism),

and

> > > whose

> > > > > > > > > understanding is free from attachment, even though

> > > slaying

> > > > > > > all

> > > > > > > > > these people, slays not, nor he is bound " .

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > It is not the type of action which is critical but

> it

> > is

> > > > the

> > > > > > > > > attitude with which actions are performed. (Ref:

> > Gitaji

> > > 2-

> > > > 38)

> > > > > > > > > " Treating alike pleasure and pain, gain and loss,

> > > victory

> > > > and

> > > > > > > > > defeat, get ready to fight, then, fighting thus you

> > will

> > > > not

> > > > > > > incur

> > > > > > > > > sin " .

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > On Adhayatamic scale, the Mahabharat war represents

> > the

> > > > > warfare

> > > > > > > > > which is going on everyday within all sadhakas and

> non-

> > > > > sadhkas,

> > > > > > > > the

> > > > > > > > > good tendencies (small in number = 5) are fighting

> > with

> > > > the

> > > > > bad

> > > > > > > > > tendencies (larger in number =100). This war has to

> be

> > > > fought

> > > > > > > and

> > > > > > > > > won if one wishes to pursue the spiritual path.

> > > > > > > > > Ram Ram

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Humble pranam

> > > > > > > > > Madan Kaura

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > -------------------

-

> --

> > --

> > > --

> > > > --

> > > > > --

> > > > > > --

> > > > > > > --

> > > > > > > > -

> > > > > > > > > B.Sathyanarayan please clarify your message

> > > > > > > > > Can one kill his / her mother even if she has

become

> > > > threat

> > > > > to

> > > > > > > > his /

> > > > > > > > > her life OR life of other family members? (say she

> has

> > > > gone

> > > > > > mad)

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Jai Shri Krushna

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > " hitsoftindia "

> > > > > > > > > -------------------

-

> --

> > --

> > > --

> > > > --

> > > > > --

> > > > > > --

> > > > > > > --

> > > > > > > > -

> > > > > > > > > , " sadhak_insight "

> > > > > > > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > One small correction. Duryodhan's father was

> > > > > Dhritharashtra.

> > > > > > > > > > G.Vaidyanathan

> > > > > > > > > > -----------------

-

> --

> > --

> > > --

> > > > --

> > > > > --

> > > > > > --

> > > > > > > --

> > > > > > > > --

> > > > > > > > > -

> > > > > > > > > > , " sadhak_insight "

> > > > > > > > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Dear sadhaks,

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > you are right in your thinking.

> > > > > > > > > > > Our scripts say -Death comes by accidents, by

> > > > calamities-

> > > > >

> > > > > > by

> > > > > > > > > other

> > > > > > > > > > > living beings such as snake bite, by tiger

> killing

> > > > human

> > > > > > and

> > > > > > > > > other

> > > > > > > > > > > animals. Death comes by diseases based on

one`s

> > > > karma,

> > > > > so

> > > > > > > on.

> > > > > > > > > > > Sastras are considered as pramanams. Sastra

says

> > > human

> > > > > > > killing

> > > > > > > > > > > another human is known as Brahma Hathi (Brahma

> > > Dhosam)

> > > > > > > > certainly

> > > > > > > > > a

> > > > > > > > > > > sin.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > But same scripts say- Killing some bad one to

> save

> > a

> > > > > > village

> > > > > > > > is

> > > > > > > > > NO

> > > > > > > > > > > sin. Destroying a village and people is No sin

> to

> > > save

> > > > a

> > > > > > big

> > > > > > > > > town.

> > > > > > > > > > > Destroying a town to save 10 towns is NO sin.

> > > > Destroying

> > > > > 10

> > > > > > > > > towns

> > > > > > > > > > to

> > > > > > > > > > > save a big city (100 towns) is NO sin.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Killing some one causes sin (Brama Hathi). But

> > that

> > > > act

> > > > > > done

> > > > > > > > for

> > > > > > > > > > the

> > > > > > > > > > > good of society at large is called Dharma. That

> > act

> > > > > should

> > > > > > > > never

> > > > > > > > > > be

> > > > > > > > > > > even 0.001% for selfish gains. Anything done

for

> > > > selfish

> > > > > > > gain

> > > > > > > > > > become

> > > > > > > > > > > Paapa (sin). Anything done for selfless gain

> > becomes

> > > > > > Punnya.

> > > > > > > > > > > Kauravas were so wicked, notorious, corrupted,

> > they

> > > did

> > > > > > > > anything

> > > > > > > > > > and

> > > > > > > > > > > everything for their pleasures, not being

> mindful

> > of

> > > > > others

> > > > > > > > > > > sufferings. They were given may opportunities

to

> > > > rectify

> > > > > > > > > > themselves.

> > > > > > > > > > > At end they remained the evil and had to be

> killed

> > > for

> > > > > > > > > maintaining

> > > > > > > > > > > peace and dharma.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > When Pandavas were children, Duryodan (He)

mixed

> > > > poison

> > > > > in

> > > > > > > > > sweets

> > > > > > > > > > > (Laddu) and gave to Bheema. Bheema Was saved.

> > Later

> > > He

> > > > > > > wanted

> > > > > > > > to

> > > > > > > > > > kill

> > > > > > > > > > > Pandavas, made a wax house for them to stay in

> and

> > > soon

> > > > > > > after

> > > > > > > > > set

> > > > > > > > > > > fire to it. Pandavas escaped through a tunnel.

> > > Again

> > > > he

> > > > > > > > planned

> > > > > > > > > > and

> > > > > > > > > > > made Pandavas to gamble, took away their

> property,

> > > > > disrobed

> > > > > > > > > > Droupati,

> > > > > > > > > > > sent them to exile. While they were in forest,

> > > > Duryodana

> > > > > > > > visited

> > > > > > > > > > > adject forest to have Vana Bojana. Indra sent

> > > > Gandarvas

> > > > > to

> > > > > > > > > arrest

> > > > > > > > > > > Duryodana, Karna and others. Gandarvas tied

them

> > up

> > > > and

> > > > > was

> > > > > > > > > > dragging.

> > > > > > > > > > > The news went to Dharmaraja. Bheema felt happy,

> but

> > > > > > > Dharmaraja

> > > > > > > > > > said

> > > > > > > > > > > to Arjuna to wage war with Gandarvas and

release

> > > > > > Duryodana's

> > > > > > > > > > people.

> > > > > > > > > > > Later when Pandavas were in Agnathavas,

> Duryodhan

> > > > waged

> > > > > war

> > > > > > > > > > illegally

> > > > > > > > > > > and lost the battle. Bagavan Krishna visited as

> > > > > messenger

> > > > > > to

> > > > > > > > > > > pandavas, asked to compensate ONLY 5 villages

to

> > > > > Pandavas,

> > > > > > > > > > Duryodana

> > > > > > > > > > > refused saying that He will not give place as

> > small

> > > as

> > > > a

> > > > > > > > neddle

> > > > > > > > > > > point. He again tried to rope up Bagavan and

> kill

> > Sri

> > > > > > > Krishna,

> > > > > > > > > who

> > > > > > > > > > > took Viswaroop and showed HIS might. Duryodana

> > said

> > > to

> > > > > > > others

> > > > > > > > > that

> > > > > > > > > > > Viswaroop was magic/illusion.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Duryodana uppa Kathas (small incidents) show He

> > was

> > > > > wicked,

> > > > > > > > > > > notorious, cunning, wreckless, dishonourable to

> > > > parents

> > > > > and

> > > > > > > > > > elders,

> > > > > > > > > > > womaniser, cheater etc. Therfore with heavy bad

> > > deeds

> > > > to

> > > > > > His

> > > > > > > > > > account

> > > > > > > > > > > He had was given very long rope and then

killed.

> > One

> > > > > stage

> > > > > > > > > Bagavan

> > > > > > > > > > > and Vithura asks Duryodhana, " Is it correct to

> do

> > > all

> > > > > these

> > > > > > > > > sins " .

> > > > > > > > > > > Duryodan replied, " I cannot help it though I

> know

> > I

> > > am

> > > > > > doing

> > > > > > > > > worst

> > > > > > > > > > > sins " .

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Duryodana father Dukshasan was a bad man in

> > earlier

> > > > birth

> > > > > > > > > blinding

> > > > > > > > > > > crane birds. So he was born blind and senseless.

> > > > > > > > > > > Such bad people Bagavan said that they are to

be

> > > > killed

> > > > > by

> > > > > > > > > Arjuna

> > > > > > > > > > > (king) which is Arjuna's Dharma to safeguard

> > > interests

> > > > of

> > > > > > > > > society

> > > > > > > > > > at

> > > > > > > > > > > large and also to establish Dharma on earth.

> > Leaving

> > > > and

> > > > > > > > running

> > > > > > > > > > away

> > > > > > > > > > > is not king` s Karma Marg.

> > > > > > > > > > > To Vudhava Bagavan said go to Badrinath and do

> > Tapas,

> > > > > > > because

> > > > > > > > > > Vudhava

> > > > > > > > > > > was fit for that as his gnana Marg

> > > > > > > > > > > Namaste

> > > > > > > > > > > B.Sathyanarayan

> > > > > > > > > > > ---------------

-

> --

> > --

> > > --

> > > > --

> > > > > --

> > > > > > --

> > > > > > > --

> > > > > > > > --

> > > > > > > > > --

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > gita-

> talk , " sadhak_insight "

> > > > > > > > > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Learned Sadhaks

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Ram Ram

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > My 2nd question on Gitaji

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > All living persons have Atma (Gitaji)

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Atma is a part of GOD as I understand.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Therefore all living being are having a

common

> > > factor

> > > > > > > called

> > > > > > > > > God.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Can we communicate through this common factor

> > > > > (Telepathy,

> > > > > > > > mind

> > > > > > > > > > > > reading, knowing that a person is good or bad

> > and

> > > so

> > > > > on)

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Each person has God Consciousness(Narayana)

in

> > > > him/her

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Serving other person is serving God

(Narayana).

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Why kill any living being?

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Why Pandvas should kill Kauravas?

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Please enlighten

> > > > > > > > > > > > me

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Jai Sri Krishana

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Ramesh Kumar Suri

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > -------------

-

> --

> > --

> > > --

> > > > --

> > > > > --

> > > > > > --

> > > > > > > --

> > > > > > > > > GITA

> > > > > > > > > > > > TALK GROUP GUIDELINES:

> > > > > > > > > > > > 1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas

> > > clarify

> > > > > their

> > > > > > > > > doubts

> > > > > > > > > > > > related to Gitaji shalokas. Therefore,

> responses

> > > > which

> > > > > > > > further

> > > > > > > > > > > > clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will

only

> > be

> > > > > posted.

> > > > > > > > > > > > 2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or

> > other

> > > > > > > > scriptures

> > > > > > > > > to

> > > > > > > > > > > > substantiate your response.

> > > > > > > > > > > > 3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions,

> > > beliefs

> > > > > etc.

> > > > > > > to

> > > > > > > > > the

> > > > > > > > > > > > extent that they further help in

understanding

> > the

> > > > Gita

> > > > > > > > shlokas

> > > > > > > > > > > > 4. Please be as concise and to the point as

> > > possible,

> > > > > > > > > respecting

> > > > > > > > > > > > sadhaka's time.

> > > > > > > > > > > > 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject

at

> > > hand

> > > > > only.

> > > > > > > > > > > > 6. Please do not include links to the other

> > sites

> > > or

> > > > > > other

> > > > > > > > > > > > organizations.

> > > > > > > > > > > > 7. Kindly do not include your personal

> > information

> > > > > such

> > > > > > as

> > > > > > > > > phone

> > > > > > > > > > > > number, address etc.

> > > > > > > > > > > > 8. Please do not address the response to a

> > > particular

> > > > > > > > > individual

> > > > > > > > > > > > since the message is going to the entire

group.

> > > > > > > > > > > > 9. Due to the large readership, all responses

> > may

> > > > not

> > > > > be

> > > > > > > > > posted.

> > > > > > > > > > > > 10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify

> the

> > > > > posting,

> > > > > > > if

> > > > > > > > > > content

> > > > > > > > > > > > is unclear or not appropriate for

distribution

> > to

> > > the

> > > > > > > group.

> > > > > > > > > > > > 11. Please respond taking into consideration

> the

> > > > > novices,

> > > > > > > > > youth,

> > > > > > > > > > > > westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly

> limit

> > > the

> > > > > use

> > > > > > > to

> > > > > > > > > > Sanskrit

> > > > > > > > > > > > words only, rather provide the English word

> with

> > > > > Sanskrit

> > > > > > > > > > bracketed

> > > > > > > > > > > > wherever possible.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > MODERATOR

> > > > > > > > > > > > Ram Ram

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

Why Kill Any Living Beings ? Why Pandavas should Kill Kauravas ?

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