Guest guest Posted May 31, 2008 Report Share Posted May 31, 2008 Why one must not commit suicide ? Is there anything written against suicide ? Does Gita say anything about this ? Please elaborate pandek GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: 1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify their doubts related to Gitaji shalokas. Therefore, responses which further clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be posted. 2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to substantiate your response. 3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas 4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting sadhaka's time. 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only. 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other organizations. 7. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone number, address etc. 8. Please do not address the response to a particular individual since the message is going to the entire group. 9. Due to the large readership, all responses may not be posted. 10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if content is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the group. 11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use to Sanskrit words only, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit bracketed wherever possible. MODERATOR Ram Ram Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2008 Report Share Posted June 1, 2008 Dear Sadhakas, Namaste! I don't know what Gita has said on this one, but some of us will know it and answer. my understanding is that it is our innate/intrinsic nature to exist and continue living in any condition. There are many proofs of this all around us when we see even terminally ill people would like to survive. It is just a natural instinct built in by God, the Intelligence itself! Suicide is thus, an unnatural act originating from dispairs, acute depression, or all such imaginations or ideas breeding fear in one! To end the body by suicide is an act of Ego, who wants to escape from responsibility causing pains to those loved ones left behind. Such a person only thinks of himself/herself and the pains he/she cannot endure, without thinking others who might be his/her dependents. This is acting very veryselfishly. Suicide is also a missed opportunity to hope for the best and realize Truth which has been discovered by some while facing such acute crisis! If one has complete trust in God and thereby in oneself, one cannot commit such an act. One goes on living inspite of problems! A man of wisdom will never commit suicide. Such a person would always know that to end the suffering, Life is a better alternative to suicide. Namaskaras... Pratap (Pratap Bhatt) -------------------------------- This is my humble opinion. In Gita, it is not explicitly mentioned 'not to commit suicide' but eloborates on the concept of death in second chapter when Arjuna is wrried about killing his own relatives. Gita states that death can be considered similarly as : as the soul taking different births and going thro the cycle of life and death similar to a person shunning the old clothes and wearing the new ones. There is no death for soul but states abour death of body only, which comes from earth and becomes one with earth as the soul takes a different journey in different body. Also, Gita talks about karma yoga (concept of fulfilling your duties :whatever it may be by choice or circumstances and whatever you think ur duty is at that time without thinking/expecting fruits for any actions at all.). If one understand this in deep, he/she also understands that there is no worry in life about anything since whatever it is, you can just offer /surrender that complete activity onto that Supreme. If one is able to surrender to that God, he is free of worries/stress/depression /etc and then one will will be able to understand that there is no need to commit suicide at all. Regards, Bharathi ------------------------------ We all are commiting suicide everday. To jump before train, or fast unto death is conventional definition but if one is drinking alcohol, eating tobacco or living a diseased life style, these are all known and voluntary action of self-destruction. Gita only says about life and death as manifestation of certain appearance as per our true nature (svabhaav). Actually, the real person does not die and comes back again to know the purpose of life rather than rejecting it. Regards K G (Krishna Gopal) -------------------------------- Thank you for your duty, be blessed by all Gods, that they fill your heart with love and trust in the power of Shiva . please if possible, send me more about this subject. I am fed up with my western woman hindu body. Very hard penance OM EIN KALINK CHAMUNDAYE VITCHE OM shiva shakti shanti shanti , " sadhak_insight " <sadhak_insight wrote: > > > Why one must not commit suicide ? > Is there anything written against suicide ? > Does Gita say anything about this ? Please elaborate > > pandek > > > GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: > 1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify their doubts > related to Gitaji shalokas. Therefore, responses which further > clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be posted. > 2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to > substantiate your response. > 3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the > extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas > 4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting > sadhaka's time. > 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only. > 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other > organizations. > 7. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone > number, address etc. > 8. Please do not address the response to a particular individual > since the message is going to the entire group. > 9. Due to the large readership, all responses may not be posted. > 10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if content > is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the group. > 11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth, > westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use to Sanskrit > words only, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit bracketed > wherever possible. > > MODERATOR > Ram Ram > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2008 Report Share Posted June 1, 2008 Dear Sadaks, Suicide is ones option to terminate body from functioning. Per my understanding, the soul after suicide remains in space until the time originaly alotted to a one on the 15th day of that baby in womb. The body and the soul with 5 kosas (5 layers of auras) comes to this earth with package of destiny which is based on it` s previous birth account of vasanas, karmas etc. As I understand, this soul hanging in space suffers worse than it was with body. The soul always carries along with it the kosas which has recorded it`s vasanas (impressions in the mind), acts, etc whether one dies naturally or suicide. The vasanas (impressions of the mind, desires, fancy imaginations, passioj) can be satisfied only with the equipment - body. The soul, now without body gets frustrated, being unable to satisfy it`s desires. Adi Sankara left his body and entered into a kings body for few days to gain certain knowledge. The soul can leave the body by yoga siddhi and reenter. By suicide one terminates the body before time span given to it. It is my understanding that the soul neither gets fresh body or goes to higher level, rather it suffers until life span given to it. So it is sinful to not do the karmas that was to one's account. Such a soul gets handicapped body after it`s life span ( with body and time without body). B.Sathyanarayan ------------------------------ Dear Sadhakas, We are all mentally committing suicide by not following the tenets of Vedas, Upanishads etc., hurting other people's feelings for our own physical betterment. Physical suicide is also on account of " Prarabdha Karma " , if one believes in the same. About this, much has been said in Gita. G.Vaidyanathan ------------------------------ Dear all, In democracy, suicide is permitted by euthanasia and legislation in EXTREME cases of body in absolutely unbearable condition. At times, suicide is assisted by husband, wife or relative ot of sheer pity and terminate suffering, or vegetative condition from paraplagia, where only moving part of person is his eyelids, being paralysed from neck downwards. At times sick people have travelled to other countries to get assisted suicide. Dr.Kevrokian also known as Dr. Death had number of clients, before he wasd stopped. Ramesh Jhalla ------------------------------ , " sadhak_insight " <sadhak_insight wrote: > > Dear Sadhakas, Namaste! > > I don't know what Gita has said on this one, but some of us will > know it and answer. > > my understanding is that it is our innate/intrinsic nature to exist > and continue living in any condition. There are many proofs of this > all around us when we see even terminally ill people would like to > survive. It is just a natural instinct built in by God, the > Intelligence itself! Suicide is thus, an unnatural act originating > from dispairs, acute depression, or all such imaginations or ideas > breeding fear in one! > > To end the body by suicide is an act of Ego, who wants to escape > from responsibility causing pains to those loved ones left behind. > Such a person only thinks of himself/herself and the pains he/she > cannot endure, without thinking others who might be his/her > dependents. This is acting very veryselfishly. > > Suicide is also a missed opportunity to hope for the best and > realize Truth which has been discovered by some while facing such > acute crisis! If one has complete trust in God and thereby in > oneself, one cannot commit such an act. One goes on living inspite > of problems! > > A man of wisdom will never commit suicide. Such a person would > always know that to end the suffering, Life is a better alternative > to suicide. > > Namaskaras... Pratap > (Pratap Bhatt) > -------------------------------- > This is my humble opinion. In Gita, it is not explicitly > mentioned 'not to commit suicide' but eloborates on the concept of > death in second chapter when Arjuna is wrried about killing his own > relatives. Gita states that death can be considered similarly as : > as the soul taking different births and going thro the cycle of life > and death similar to a person shunning the old clothes and wearing > the new ones. There is no death for soul but states abour death of > body only, which comes from earth and becomes one with earth as the > soul takes a different journey in different body. > > Also, Gita talks about karma yoga (concept of fulfilling your > duties :whatever it may be by choice or circumstances and whatever > you think ur duty is at that time without thinking/expecting fruits > for any actions at all.). > > If one understand this in deep, he/she also understands that there > is no worry in life about anything since whatever it is, you can > just offer /surrender that complete activity onto that Supreme. If > one is able to surrender to that God, he is free of > worries/stress/depression /etc and then one will will be able to > understand that there is no need to commit suicide at all. > > Regards, > Bharathi > ------------------------------ > We all are commiting suicide everday. To jump before train, or fast > unto death is conventional definition but if one is drinking > alcohol, eating tobacco or living a diseased life style, these are > all known and voluntary action of self-destruction. > > Gita only says about life and death as manifestation of certain > appearance as per our true nature (svabhaav). Actually, the real > person does not die and comes back again to know the purpose of life > rather than rejecting it. > Regards > K G > (Krishna Gopal) > -------------------------------- > Thank you for your duty, be blessed by all Gods, that they fill your > heart with love and trust in the power of Shiva . > > please if possible, send me more about this subject. I am fed up > with my western woman hindu body. > Very hard penance > > OM EIN KALINK CHAMUNDAYE VITCHE OM > shiva shakti shanti > > shanti > > > > , " sadhak_insight " > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > > > Why one must not commit suicide ? > > Is there anything written against suicide ? > > Does Gita say anything about this ? Please elaborate > > > > pandek > > > > > > GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: > > 1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify their doubts > > related to Gitaji shalokas. Therefore, responses which further > > clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be posted. > > 2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to > > substantiate your response. > > 3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the > > extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas > > 4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting > > sadhaka's time. > > 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only. > > 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other > > organizations. > > 7. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone > > number, address etc. > > 8. Please do not address the response to a particular individual > > since the message is going to the entire group. > > 9. Due to the large readership, all responses may not be posted. > > 10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if > content > > is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the group. > > 11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth, > > westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use to > Sanskrit > > words only, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit > bracketed > > wherever possible. > > > > MODERATOR > > Ram Ram > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 1, 2008 Report Share Posted June 1, 2008 Loving Divine, Pranam. Yes, Gitaji has mentioned about Arjun ready to commit suicide in BG 1:46. He was so dejected with the situation, he said to Krishna that it is better for me not to carry weapon or fight, rather let all equipped Kauravs kill me. The last sloka BG 1.47 says that after saying this Arjuna dropped his bow-arrows & sat down at the back seat of the chariott. Arjuna knew committing suicide is a sin so he finds an alternate way to get killed! Looking at his condition, Lord calls him cowered (BG 2:3). In BG 2:11, Krishna even becomes sarcastic. Arjuna continues with his depressive attitude & not wanting to face the situation (BG 2:9). Lord starts giving him advise why he should not kill himself or be upset over other bodies being killed BG 2:12. Also Krishna talks about what happens when people die in later chapters. When people die with unfulfilled desires, they have to be reborn. Nature wants them to learn the life lesson but by running away from it they are bound to face the situation over and over again until they learn and transcend themselves. So it is not good to commit suicide. I would suggest reading BG Chapter 1 & 2 thoroughly for better understanding. humble regards, always at Thy Holy Feet Manjula Patel - First let us understand that so called life and death _ how significant they are from the perspective of " SELF " and that of " GOD " . The correct answer is as insignificant as is our change of cloths_ Gita is relevant here.There are only three elements existing in this universe. JEEVA (Self), JAGDISH(God) and JAGAT(World including your body, mind, intellect and ego). Just as it is insignificant from Jeeva (Self) and Jagdish (God's) point of view , from Jagat (World's) point of view also they are not at all of any importance because the World changes, changes and does nothing except changes. A change for life is death and a change for death is life. Now come to " Suicide " . It is a running away from the reality. While Gita doesnot specifically refer about suicide but it is abundantly clear that it is an act of total stupidity and cowardice. Other Hindu Scriptures condemn this act in no uncertain terms. Where in fact is the need ever to get so upset? The punishment is " non entitlement of human life for eons and eons " You wasted the earlier life given to you. As simple as that. Vyas, N B Hare Krishna. I think that the right thing would be to stay alive until you die either by an accident or naturally, EVEN THOUGH you are in a vegetative state, because that way you'd be paying your karma, most probably a huge one!! Kind regards. Daniel Tkach Dear Sadaks, Why speak of Suicide when we are alive ? that is how to live peacefully and happily is what one needs to understand Thank you and best regards, Gokul Mehta - , " sadhak_insight " <sadhak_insight wrote: > > Dear Sadaks, > > Suicide is ones option to terminate body from functioning. Per my > understanding, the soul after suicide remains in space until the > time originaly alotted to a one on the 15th day of that baby in > womb. The body and the soul with 5 kosas (5 layers of auras) comes > to this earth with package of destiny which is based on it` s > previous birth account of vasanas, karmas etc. > > As I understand, this soul hanging in space suffers worse than it > was with body. The soul always carries along with it the kosas which > has recorded it`s vasanas (impressions in the mind), acts, etc > whether one dies naturally or suicide. The vasanas (impressions of > the mind, desires, fancy imaginations, passioj) can be satisfied > only with the equipment - body. The soul, now without body gets > frustrated, being unable to satisfy it`s desires. > > Adi Sankara left his body and entered into a kings body for few days > to gain certain knowledge. The soul can leave the body by yoga > siddhi and reenter. > > By suicide one terminates the body before time span given to it. It > is my understanding that the soul neither gets fresh body or goes to > higher level, rather it suffers until life span given to it. So it > is sinful to not do the karmas that was to one's account. Such a > soul gets handicapped body after it`s life span ( with body and time > without body). > > B.Sathyanarayan > ------------------------------ > Dear Sadhakas, We are all mentally committing suicide by not > following the tenets of Vedas, Upanishads etc., hurting other > people's feelings for our own physical betterment. Physical suicide > is also on account of " Prarabdha Karma " , if one believes in the > same. About this, much has been said in Gita. > G.Vaidyanathan > > ------------------------------ > Dear all, > > In democracy, suicide is permitted by euthanasia and legislation in > EXTREME cases of body in absolutely unbearable condition. At times, > suicide is assisted by husband, wife or relative ot of sheer pity > and terminate suffering, or vegetative condition from paraplagia, > where only moving part of person is his eyelids, being paralysed > from neck downwards. > > At times sick people have travelled to other countries to get > assisted suicide. Dr.Kevrokian also known as Dr. Death had number of > clients, before he wasd stopped. > > Ramesh Jhalla > > > ------------------------------ > , " sadhak_insight " > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > Dear Sadhakas, Namaste! > > > > I don't know what Gita has said on this one, but some of us will > > know it and answer. > > > > my understanding is that it is our innate/intrinsic nature to > exist > > and continue living in any condition. There are many proofs of > this > > all around us when we see even terminally ill people would like to > > survive. It is just a natural instinct built in by God, the > > Intelligence itself! Suicide is thus, an unnatural act originating > > from dispairs, acute depression, or all such imaginations or ideas > > breeding fear in one! > > > > To end the body by suicide is an act of Ego, who wants to escape > > from responsibility causing pains to those loved ones left behind. > > Such a person only thinks of himself/herself and the pains he/she > > cannot endure, without thinking others who might be his/her > > dependents. This is acting very veryselfishly. > > > > Suicide is also a missed opportunity to hope for the best and > > realize Truth which has been discovered by some while facing such > > acute crisis! If one has complete trust in God and thereby in > > oneself, one cannot commit such an act. One goes on living inspite > > of problems! > > > > A man of wisdom will never commit suicide. Such a person would > > always know that to end the suffering, Life is a better > alternative > > to suicide. > > > > Namaskaras... Pratap > > (Pratap Bhatt) > > -------------------------------- > > This is my humble opinion. In Gita, it is not explicitly > > mentioned 'not to commit suicide' but eloborates on the concept of > > death in second chapter when Arjuna is wrried about killing his > own > > relatives. Gita states that death can be considered similarly as : > > as the soul taking different births and going thro the cycle of > life > > and death similar to a person shunning the old clothes and wearing > > the new ones. There is no death for soul but states abour death of > > body only, which comes from earth and becomes one with earth as > the > > soul takes a different journey in different body. > > > > Also, Gita talks about karma yoga (concept of fulfilling your > > duties :whatever it may be by choice or circumstances and whatever > > you think ur duty is at that time without thinking/expecting > fruits > > for any actions at all.). > > > > If one understand this in deep, he/she also understands that there > > is no worry in life about anything since whatever it is, you can > > just offer /surrender that complete activity onto that Supreme. If > > one is able to surrender to that God, he is free of > > worries/stress/depression /etc and then one will will be able to > > understand that there is no need to commit suicide at all. > > > > Regards, > > Bharathi > > ------------------------------ > > We all are commiting suicide everday. To jump before train, or > fast > > unto death is conventional definition but if one is drinking > > alcohol, eating tobacco or living a diseased life style, these are > > all known and voluntary action of self-destruction. > > > > Gita only says about life and death as manifestation of certain > > appearance as per our true nature (svabhaav). Actually, the real > > person does not die and comes back again to know the purpose of > life > > rather than rejecting it. > > Regards > > K G > > (Krishna Gopal) > > -------------------------------- > > Thank you for your duty, be blessed by all Gods, that they fill > your > > heart with love and trust in the power of Shiva . > > > > please if possible, send me more about this subject. I am fed up > > with my western woman hindu body. > > Very hard penance > > > > OM EIN KALINK CHAMUNDAYE VITCHE OM > > shiva shakti shanti > > > > shanti > > > > > > -------------------------------- - > > , " sadhak_insight " > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Why one must not commit suicide ? > > > Is there anything written against suicide ? > > > Does Gita say anything about this ? Please elaborate > > > > > > pandek > > > > > > > > > GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: > > > 1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify their doubts > > > related to Gitaji shalokas. Therefore, responses which further > > > clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be posted. > > > 2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to > > > substantiate your response. > > > 3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the > > > extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas > > > 4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting > > > sadhaka's time. > > > 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only. > > > 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other > > > organizations. > > > 7. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone > > > number, address etc. > > > 8. Please do not address the response to a particular individual > > > since the message is going to the entire group. > > > 9. Due to the large readership, all responses may not be posted. > > > 10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if > > content > > > is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the group. > > > 11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth, > > > westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use to > > Sanskrit > > > words only, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit > > bracketed > > > wherever possible. > > > > > > MODERATOR > > > Ram Ram > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 3, 2008 Report Share Posted June 3, 2008 Pranam to all Sadhakas; Did Arjuna say that he wanted to commit suicide?? Where?? and When? In (1/46) Arjuna is ready to be killed (when unarmed) by the Kuravas. This is not suicide, though it may be suicidal in the end. In fact no Kshatriya worth his salt will think of suicide because nothing is more dear to him than a Dharma Yuddha which opens the gates of Heaven for him (2/31) Also a Kshtriya knows that if killed during a Dharma Yuddha, he will go straight to Heaven and if he survives he will enjoy life tothe fullest (2/37). Namaskar to all. Suhas Gogate - I feel Brother B.Sathyanarayan has put it in a very beautiful way. I too strongly think the same. Suicide is just trying to avoid one's karma, which is impossible, and has to be completed anyways! Love and Light Jacob - pranam what about the reverse of this. one kills others if they dont follow his path. like terrorists kill lots when they dont follow their suit. Pl. elaborate on geetaji. thanx raja gurdasani -- , " sadhak_insight " <sadhak_insight wrote: > > Loving Divine, > Pranam. > Yes, Gitaji has mentioned about Arjun ready to commit suicide in BG > 1:46. He was so dejected with the situation, he said to Krishna > that it is better for me not to carry weapon or fight, rather let > all equipped Kauravs kill me. The last sloka BG 1.47 says that > after saying this Arjuna dropped his bow-arrows & sat down at the > back seat of the chariott. Arjuna knew committing suicide is a sin > so he finds an alternate way to get killed! Looking at his > condition, Lord calls him cowered (BG 2:3). In BG 2:11, Krishna > even becomes sarcastic. Arjuna continues with his depressive > attitude & not wanting to face the situation (BG 2:9). Lord starts > giving him advise why he should not kill himself or be upset over > other bodies being killed BG 2:12. > > Also Krishna talks about what happens when people die in later > chapters. When people die with unfulfilled desires, they have to be > reborn. Nature wants them to learn the life lesson but by running > away from it they are bound to face the situation over and over > again until they learn and transcend themselves. So it is not good > to commit suicide. > > I would suggest reading BG Chapter 1 & 2 thoroughly for better > understanding. > > humble regards, > always at Thy Holy Feet > > Manjula Patel > - > First let us understand that so called life and death _ how > significant they are from the perspective of " SELF " and that > of " GOD " . The correct answer is as insignificant as is our change of > cloths_ Gita is relevant here.There are only three elements existing > in this universe. JEEVA (Self), JAGDISH(God) and JAGAT(World > including your body, mind, intellect and ego). Just as it is > insignificant from Jeeva (Self) and Jagdish (God's) point of view , > from Jagat (World's) point of view also they are not at all of any > importance because the World changes, changes and does nothing > except changes. A change for life is death and a change for death is > life. > > Now come to " Suicide " . It is a running away from the reality. While > Gita doesnot specifically refer about suicide but it is abundantly > clear that it is an act of total stupidity and cowardice. Other > Hindu Scriptures condemn this act in no uncertain terms. Where in > fact is the need ever to get so upset? The punishment is " non > entitlement of human life for eons and eons " You wasted the earlier > life given to you. As simple as that. > > Vyas, N B > > Hare Krishna. > I think that the right thing would be to stay alive until you die > either by an accident > or naturally, EVEN THOUGH you are in a vegetative state, because > that way you'd be paying your karma, most probably a huge one!! > Kind regards. > > Daniel Tkach > > Dear Sadaks, > > Why speak of Suicide when we are alive ? that is how to live > peacefully and happily is what one needs to understand > Thank you and best regards, > > Gokul Mehta > - > , " sadhak_insight " > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > Dear Sadaks, > > > > Suicide is ones option to terminate body from functioning. Per my > > understanding, the soul after suicide remains in space until the > > time originaly alotted to a one on the 15th day of that baby in > > womb. The body and the soul with 5 kosas (5 layers of auras) comes > > to this earth with package of destiny which is based on it` s > > previous birth account of vasanas, karmas etc. > > > > As I understand, this soul hanging in space suffers worse than it > > was with body. The soul always carries along with it the kosas > which > > has recorded it`s vasanas (impressions in the mind), acts, etc > > whether one dies naturally or suicide. The vasanas (impressions of > > the mind, desires, fancy imaginations, passioj) can be satisfied > > only with the equipment - body. The soul, now without body gets > > frustrated, being unable to satisfy it`s desires. > > > > Adi Sankara left his body and entered into a kings body for few > days > > to gain certain knowledge. The soul can leave the body by yoga > > siddhi and reenter. > > > > By suicide one terminates the body before time span given to it. > It > > is my understanding that the soul neither gets fresh body or goes > to > > higher level, rather it suffers until life span given to it. So it > > is sinful to not do the karmas that was to one's account. Such a > > soul gets handicapped body after it`s life span ( with body and > time > > without body). > > > > B.Sathyanarayan > > ------------------------------ > > Dear Sadhakas, We are all mentally committing suicide by not > > following the tenets of Vedas, Upanishads etc., hurting other > > people's feelings for our own physical betterment. Physical > suicide > > is also on account of " Prarabdha Karma " , if one believes in the > > same. About this, much has been said in Gita. > > G.Vaidyanathan > > > > ------------------------------ > > Dear all, > > > > In democracy, suicide is permitted by euthanasia and legislation > in > > EXTREME cases of body in absolutely unbearable condition. At > times, > > suicide is assisted by husband, wife or relative ot of sheer pity > > and terminate suffering, or vegetative condition from paraplagia, > > where only moving part of person is his eyelids, being paralysed > > from neck downwards. > > > > At times sick people have travelled to other countries to get > > assisted suicide. Dr.Kevrokian also known as Dr. Death had number > of > > clients, before he wasd stopped. > > > > Ramesh Jhalla > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > , " sadhak_insight " > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > > > Dear Sadhakas, Namaste! > > > > > > I don't know what Gita has said on this one, but some of us will > > > know it and answer. > > > > > > my understanding is that it is our innate/intrinsic nature to > > exist > > > and continue living in any condition. There are many proofs of > > this > > > all around us when we see even terminally ill people would like > to > > > survive. It is just a natural instinct built in by God, the > > > Intelligence itself! Suicide is thus, an unnatural act > originating > > > from dispairs, acute depression, or all such imaginations or > ideas > > > breeding fear in one! > > > > > > To end the body by suicide is an act of Ego, who wants to escape > > > from responsibility causing pains to those loved ones left > behind. > > > Such a person only thinks of himself/herself and the pains > he/she > > > cannot endure, without thinking others who might be his/her > > > dependents. This is acting very veryselfishly. > > > > > > Suicide is also a missed opportunity to hope for the best and > > > realize Truth which has been discovered by some while facing > such > > > acute crisis! If one has complete trust in God and thereby in > > > oneself, one cannot commit such an act. One goes on living > inspite > > > of problems! > > > > > > A man of wisdom will never commit suicide. Such a person would > > > always know that to end the suffering, Life is a better > > alternative > > > to suicide. > > > > > > Namaskaras... Pratap > > > (Pratap Bhatt) > > > ------------------------------ -- > > > This is my humble opinion. In Gita, it is not explicitly > > > mentioned 'not to commit suicide' but eloborates on the concept > of > > > death in second chapter when Arjuna is wrried about killing his > > own > > > relatives. Gita states that death can be considered similarly > as : > > > as the soul taking different births and going thro the cycle of > > life > > > and death similar to a person shunning the old clothes and > wearing > > > the new ones. There is no death for soul but states abour death > of > > > body only, which comes from earth and becomes one with earth as > > the > > > soul takes a different journey in different body. > > > > > > Also, Gita talks about karma yoga (concept of fulfilling your > > > duties :whatever it may be by choice or circumstances and > whatever > > > you think ur duty is at that time without thinking/expecting > > fruits > > > for any actions at all.). > > > > > > If one understand this in deep, he/she also understands that > there > > > is no worry in life about anything since whatever it is, you can > > > just offer /surrender that complete activity onto that Supreme. > If > > > one is able to surrender to that God, he is free of > > > worries/stress/depression /etc and then one will will be able to > > > understand that there is no need to commit suicide at all. > > > > > > Regards, > > > Bharathi > > > ------------------------------ > > > We all are commiting suicide everday. To jump before train, or > > fast > > > unto death is conventional definition but if one is drinking > > > alcohol, eating tobacco or living a diseased life style, these > are > > > all known and voluntary action of self-destruction. > > > > > > Gita only says about life and death as manifestation of certain > > > appearance as per our true nature (svabhaav). Actually, the > real > > > person does not die and comes back again to know the purpose of > > life > > > rather than rejecting it. > > > Regards > > > K G > > > (Krishna Gopal) > > > ------------------------------ -- > > > Thank you for your duty, be blessed by all Gods, that they fill > > your > > > heart with love and trust in the power of Shiva . > > > > > > please if possible, send me more about this subject. I am fed > up > > > with my western woman hindu body. > > > Very hard penance > > > > > > OM EIN KALINK CHAMUNDAYE VITCHE OM > > > shiva shakti shanti > > > > > > shanti > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ -- > - > > > , " sadhak_insight " > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Why one must not commit suicide ? > > > > Is there anything written against suicide ? > > > > Does Gita say anything about this ? Please elaborate > > > > > > > > pandek > > > > > > > > > > > > GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: > > > > 1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify their > doubts > > > > related to Gitaji shalokas. Therefore, responses which further > > > > clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be posted. > > > > 2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures > to > > > > substantiate your response. > > > > 3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to > the > > > > extent that they further help in understanding the Gita > shlokas > > > > 4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, > respecting > > > > sadhaka's time. > > > > 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only. > > > > 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other > > > > organizations. > > > > 7. Kindly do not include your personal information such as > phone > > > > number, address etc. > > > > 8. Please do not address the response to a particular > individual > > > > since the message is going to the entire group. > > > > 9. Due to the large readership, all responses may not be > posted. > > > > 10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if > > > content > > > > is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the group. > > > > 11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, > youth, > > > > westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use to > > > Sanskrit > > > > words only, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit > > > bracketed > > > > wherever possible. > > > > > > > > MODERATOR > > > > Ram Ram > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 5, 2008 Report Share Posted June 5, 2008 Dear Sadhika, Pranaam. Committing suicide means ending your body. Whats the use of ending up something(body) which is going to end itself anyway ? Instead bear it and align yourself with the purpose of your existence. Gitaji says-bear pain and pleasure as you bear cold and hot weather. As you said- " I " am fed up with my ... " body " . This implies that you are already aware of the fact that " I " am not " my body " . Gitaji;1:18 Then who am I ? Gitaji Chapter 1, 2 will explain you. Please first find out WHO AM I ? You are already at the higher state of consciousness where you know that you are not the body, please meditate more and contemplate on " who am I " . As you go deeper you will know that you are not your mental, emotional assumptions, you are not what the other people think of you and you are not what you think you are.You are not the sufferings, you are not the pain your body and mind is going through, you are not that mental emotional role you are playing everyday. Then who are you ? Please find out, its important. Every shaloka of Gitaji is full of answers. Read, re-read, contemplate, meditate. I will suggest reading Eckhart Tolle's books - " Power of now " and " A new earth " . He was thinking of ending his life but ultimately he got realization out of that. with lots of love, a sadhika Sadhna Karigar ------------------------------- What is suicide? Is it terminating one's association with the body-mind cluster or terminating one's association with oneself? Isopanishad declares that it is the later who are the suiciders (aatmahanah) though we ignorantly are obsessed with the former. Bhagavad Gita – the essence of all Upanishads – certainly deals with both. 1. Suicide – termination of one's association with the body-mind cluster One's attempt for cessation from the body-mind cluster is condemned throughout the Bhagavad Gita. All our miseries are nothing but symptoms of our frustration and disgust with what we are. What we are is generally determined with what we have. What we have is generally determined with what we can. What we can is generally determined with our physical and mental abilities. In other words, our day-to-day happiness is determined with the quality of the body- mind cluster we possess. That is the ignorance we happily harbor in our existential persistence. Therefore, every pain we experience is nothing but a hint of our frustration with our identity – body-mind cluster – in its core. Accordingly, we develop dreams of identities that we are not. Our lust for this dreamed identities grows stronger and stronger as our frustration with our actual identity increases increasing our disgust toward our current identity in return – it is a vicious circle. Gita is most vocal on this chaotic confusion we harbor e.g. Shreyan swadharmo vigunah paradharmat swanushthithat … The survival instinct imbedded in our existence – to run away from adversities – is turned to cowardice due to our wrong conditioning keeping us on the verge of escaping from any adverse situations at the very first instance. Escapism is in other words the agent of the suicide. Escaping from actions in its zenith becomes escaping from life as such. Very often people have tried to twist the concept of Nirvana relating it to suicide with me. My challenge to them is, " If you can quit your body without any effort, without any motivation or intention and without any assistance from anything including holding breath … that I say is Nirvana " . There cannot be a trace of any urge or purturbation at Nirvana. All associations are mitigated in spite of the physical association with the organic system. Therefore, the question of giving up the organic system can never arise at Nirvana since there is no organic system that such a soul cling on to in the first place. The identity dies in spite of the living. On the other hand, a suicide always ends a life with intense unfulfilled urge for an alien identity swarmed with perturbations. In fact, a suicider continues to " own " the identity that is being thrown away as well as the one that is dreamt after. Therefore, there is no real termination of association with the identity in such termination of life. In fact, all such associations are strengthened in the very attempt in spite of the physical sessation from the organic system. There is no question of giving up an identity at suicide since there is no faculty to exercise on such an act in the first place. Therefore, the individual identity exits stronger with heightened frustration having no more faculties to manipulate itself after the death. The identity never dies in spite of the death; in fact, it grows stronger in case of suicide, in particular. Most humans are perpetually in the act of suicide knowingly or unknowingly – trying to escape from situations, trying to hide their true identities, forging false relations in life etc. Gita, again, is quite strongly against any such suicidal attempt – inaction, running away from action e.g. Niyatam kuru karma tvam karma jyayohyakarmanah … The whole essence of Gita is the message " Fight! Do not give up!! " " Uttishthata! Jagrata!! Prapya varaannibodhata " as Kathopanishad puts it. 1. Suicide – termination of one's association with oneself As Ishopanishad puts it almost all humans are verily " aatmahanaah " – the self slayers, ones who have no clue of their true selves and the ones who do not dare to envision themselves in their lives – they prefer to live in pitch dark ignorance of themselves. It is true. Not knowing or insisting not to know anything is as good as the non- existence of that as far as they are concerned. If one does not know oneself, one's self is definitely slain within one's perception. In other words, one does not exist for oneself when one's existence is anything but oneself. You get this message in every verse of Bhagavad Gita. The whole Mahabharata war is to fight through all the elements of ignorance and inertia that try to separate one from oneself. The ignorant can never suicide from this perspective since they have never lived a life to give up one. On the other hand, the realized ones cannot see the death in the first place and hence live for ever. In fact, the ignorant are never born (Aja) since they never make any attempt to seek life; while, the realized seek life to realize that they are in fact Aja, the birthless (and hence deathless) since they are The Life. My understanding from Gita and all other scriptures regarding life, death and suicide is: One who lives can never die. One who covets life has to die. And, those who never lived would seek suicide. Respects. Naga Narayana. - Loving Divine, Pranam Here are few definitions: 1. the act of killing oneself deliberately: he tried to commit suicide 2. a person who kills himself or herself intentionally 3. the self-inflicted ruin of one's own career or future: such a cut would be political suicide OR The act of deliberately or intentionally taking one's own life. Suicidal behavior is any deliberate action that has a potentially life-threatening consequences, such as taking a drug overdose or deliberately crashing a car. The human act of self-inflicted, self-intentioned cessation. According to Freud, Suicide was murder turned around 180 degrees. A very poor response to a very bad day. OR A. Suicide is any form of self-killing, where self-killing is understood as acting in such a way as to bring about one's own death. B. Durkheim's definition of suicide: Suicide is the death resulting directly or indirectly from a positive or negative act of the victim himself, which he knows will produce this result. C. Another definition of suicide: X commits suicide if: X acts (or refrains form acting) in such a way as to bring about his own death. X intends by those actions to bring about his own death either because he wants his own death per se, or because he wants something which he thinks can be caused only by his death (not merely by the act which also causes his death as a foreseen but unintended consequence). Arjun was not willing to get killed bravely fighting the dharma yuddha (true kshatriya would die fighting to protect dharma) rather before even fight begins he had given up wanting to be killed (BG chapter 1 tells about it many times). This is a sin (paapa). He prefers begging over fighting the dharma yuddha! If Arjun would have wanted to die even unarmed truly fighting the war, Lord would not have to call him coward. Reading entire chapter 1 & 2 together will help understand the situation. Shri Krishna also explains the same thing in few slokas starting BG 2:31. humble regards, always at Thy Lotus Feet Manjula Patel - , " sadhak_insight " <sadhak_insight wrote: > > > Pranam to all Sadhakas; > > Did Arjuna say that he wanted to commit suicide?? Where?? and When? > > In (1/46) Arjuna is ready to be killed (when unarmed) by the > Kuravas. This is not suicide, though it may be suicidal in the end. > > In fact no Kshatriya worth his salt will think of suicide because > nothing is more dear to him than a Dharma Yuddha which opens the > gates of Heaven for him (2/31) Also a Kshtriya knows that if killed > during a Dharma Yuddha, he will go straight to Heaven and if he > survives he will enjoy life tothe fullest (2/37). > > Namaskar to all. > > Suhas Gogate > - > I feel Brother B.Sathyanarayan has put it in a very beautiful way. I > too strongly think the same. Suicide is just trying to avoid one's > karma, which is impossible, and has to be completed anyways! > > > Love and Light > Jacob > - > pranam > > what about the reverse of this. one kills others if they dont follow > his path. like terrorists kill lots when they dont follow their suit. > > Pl. elaborate on geetaji. > > thanx > > raja gurdasani > > - - > , " sadhak_insight " > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > Loving Divine, > > Pranam. > > Yes, Gitaji has mentioned about Arjun ready to commit suicide in > BG > > 1:46. He was so dejected with the situation, he said to Krishna > > that it is better for me not to carry weapon or fight, rather let > > all equipped Kauravs kill me. The last sloka BG 1.47 says that > > after saying this Arjuna dropped his bow-arrows & sat down at the > > back seat of the chariott. Arjuna knew committing suicide is a > sin > > so he finds an alternate way to get killed! Looking at his > > condition, Lord calls him cowered (BG 2:3). In BG 2:11, Krishna > > even becomes sarcastic. Arjuna continues with his depressive > > attitude & not wanting to face the situation (BG 2:9). Lord > starts > > giving him advise why he should not kill himself or be upset over > > other bodies being killed BG 2:12. > > > > Also Krishna talks about what happens when people die in later > > chapters. When people die with unfulfilled desires, they have to > be > > reborn. Nature wants them to learn the life lesson but by running > > away from it they are bound to face the situation over and over > > again until they learn and transcend themselves. So it is not > good > > to commit suicide. > > > > I would suggest reading BG Chapter 1 & 2 thoroughly for better > > understanding. > > > > humble regards, > > always at Thy Holy Feet > > > > Manjula Patel > > -------------------------------- -- > > First let us understand that so called life and death _ how > > significant they are from the perspective of " SELF " and that > > of " GOD " . The correct answer is as insignificant as is our change > of > > cloths_ Gita is relevant here.There are only three elements > existing > > in this universe. JEEVA (Self), JAGDISH(God) and JAGAT(World > > including your body, mind, intellect and ego). Just as it is > > insignificant from Jeeva (Self) and Jagdish (God's) point of > view , > > from Jagat (World's) point of view also they are not at all of any > > importance because the World changes, changes and does nothing > > except changes. A change for life is death and a change for death > is > > life. > > > > Now come to " Suicide " . It is a running away from the reality. > While > > Gita doesnot specifically refer about suicide but it is abundantly > > clear that it is an act of total stupidity and cowardice. Other > > Hindu Scriptures condemn this act in no uncertain terms. Where in > > fact is the need ever to get so upset? The punishment is " non > > entitlement of human life for eons and eons " You wasted the > earlier > > life given to you. As simple as that. > > > > Vyas, N B > > -------------------------------- - > > Hare Krishna. > > I think that the right thing would be to stay alive until you die > > either by an accident > > or naturally, EVEN THOUGH you are in a vegetative state, because > > that way you'd be paying your karma, most probably a huge one!! > > Kind regards. > > > > Daniel Tkach > > -------------------------------- - > > Dear Sadaks, > > > > Why speak of Suicide when we are alive ? that is how to live > > peacefully and happily is what one needs to understand > > Thank you and best regards, > > > > Gokul Mehta > > -------------------------------- -- > > , " sadhak_insight " > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > > > Dear Sadaks, > > > > > > Suicide is ones option to terminate body from functioning. Per > my > > > understanding, the soul after suicide remains in space until the > > > time originaly alotted to a one on the 15th day of that baby in > > > womb. The body and the soul with 5 kosas (5 layers of auras) > comes > > > to this earth with package of destiny which is based on it` s > > > previous birth account of vasanas, karmas etc. > > > > > > As I understand, this soul hanging in space suffers worse than > it > > > was with body. The soul always carries along with it the kosas > > which > > > has recorded it`s vasanas (impressions in the mind), acts, etc > > > whether one dies naturally or suicide. The vasanas (impressions > of > > > the mind, desires, fancy imaginations, passioj) can be satisfied > > > only with the equipment - body. The soul, now without body gets > > > frustrated, being unable to satisfy it`s desires. > > > > > > Adi Sankara left his body and entered into a kings body for few > > days > > > to gain certain knowledge. The soul can leave the body by yoga > > > siddhi and reenter. > > > > > > By suicide one terminates the body before time span given to it. > > It > > > is my understanding that the soul neither gets fresh body or > goes > > to > > > higher level, rather it suffers until life span given to it. So > it > > > is sinful to not do the karmas that was to one's account. Such > a > > > soul gets handicapped body after it`s life span ( with body and > > time > > > without body). > > > > > > B.Sathyanarayan > > > ------------------------------ > > > Dear Sadhakas, We are all mentally committing suicide by not > > > following the tenets of Vedas, Upanishads etc., hurting other > > > people's feelings for our own physical betterment. Physical > > suicide > > > is also on account of " Prarabdha Karma " , if one believes in the > > > same. About this, much has been said in Gita. > > > G.Vaidyanathan > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > Dear all, > > > > > > In democracy, suicide is permitted by euthanasia and legislation > > in > > > EXTREME cases of body in absolutely unbearable condition. At > > times, > > > suicide is assisted by husband, wife or relative ot of sheer > pity > > > and terminate suffering, or vegetative condition from > paraplagia, > > > where only moving part of person is his eyelids, being paralysed > > > from neck downwards. > > > > > > At times sick people have travelled to other countries to get > > > assisted suicide. Dr.Kevrokian also known as Dr. Death had > number > > of > > > clients, before he wasd stopped. > > > > > > Ramesh Jhalla > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > , " sadhak_insight " > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear Sadhakas, Namaste! > > > > > > > > I don't know what Gita has said on this one, but some of us > will > > > > know it and answer. > > > > > > > > my understanding is that it is our innate/intrinsic nature to > > > exist > > > > and continue living in any condition. There are many proofs of > > > this > > > > all around us when we see even terminally ill people would > like > > to > > > > survive. It is just a natural instinct built in by God, the > > > > Intelligence itself! Suicide is thus, an unnatural act > > originating > > > > from dispairs, acute depression, or all such imaginations or > > ideas > > > > breeding fear in one! > > > > > > > > To end the body by suicide is an act of Ego, who wants to > escape > > > > from responsibility causing pains to those loved ones left > > behind. > > > > Such a person only thinks of himself/herself and the pains > > he/she > > > > cannot endure, without thinking others who might be his/her > > > > dependents. This is acting very veryselfishly. > > > > > > > > Suicide is also a missed opportunity to hope for the best and > > > > realize Truth which has been discovered by some while facing > > such > > > > acute crisis! If one has complete trust in God and thereby in > > > > oneself, one cannot commit such an act. One goes on living > > inspite > > > > of problems! > > > > > > > > A man of wisdom will never commit suicide. Such a person would > > > > always know that to end the suffering, Life is a better > > > alternative > > > > to suicide. > > > > > > > > Namaskaras... Pratap > > > > (Pratap Bhatt) > > > > ---------------------------- -- > -- > > > > This is my humble opinion. In Gita, it is not explicitly > > > > mentioned 'not to commit suicide' but eloborates on the > concept > > of > > > > death in second chapter when Arjuna is wrried about killing > his > > > own > > > > relatives. Gita states that death can be considered similarly > > as : > > > > as the soul taking different births and going thro the cycle > of > > > life > > > > and death similar to a person shunning the old clothes and > > wearing > > > > the new ones. There is no death for soul but states abour > death > > of > > > > body only, which comes from earth and becomes one with earth > as > > > the > > > > soul takes a different journey in different body. > > > > > > > > Also, Gita talks about karma yoga (concept of fulfilling your > > > > duties :whatever it may be by choice or circumstances and > > whatever > > > > you think ur duty is at that time without thinking/expecting > > > fruits > > > > for any actions at all.). > > > > > > > > If one understand this in deep, he/she also understands that > > there > > > > is no worry in life about anything since whatever it is, you > can > > > > just offer /surrender that complete activity onto that > Supreme. > > If > > > > one is able to surrender to that God, he is free of > > > > worries/stress/depression /etc and then one will will be able > to > > > > understand that there is no need to commit suicide at all. > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > Bharathi > > > > ---------------------------- -- > > > > We all are commiting suicide everday. To jump before train, or > > > fast > > > > unto death is conventional definition but if one is drinking > > > > alcohol, eating tobacco or living a diseased life style, these > > are > > > > all known and voluntary action of self-destruction. > > > > > > > > Gita only says about life and death as manifestation of > certain > > > > appearance as per our true nature (svabhaav). Actually, the > > real > > > > person does not die and comes back again to know the purpose > of > > > life > > > > rather than rejecting it. > > > > Regards > > > > K G > > > > (Krishna Gopal) > > > > ---------------------------- -- > -- > > > > Thank you for your duty, be blessed by all Gods, that they > fill > > > your > > > > heart with love and trust in the power of Shiva . > > > > > > > > please if possible, send me more about this subject. I am fed > > up > > > > with my western woman hindu body. > > > > Very hard penance > > > > > > > > OM EIN KALINK CHAMUNDAYE VITCHE OM > > > > shiva shakti shanti > > > > > > > > shanti > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------- -- > -- > > - > > > > , " sadhak_insight " > > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why one must not commit suicide ? > > > > > Is there anything written against suicide ? > > > > > Does Gita say anything about this ? Please elaborate > > > > > > > > > > pandek > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: > > > > > 1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify their > > doubts > > > > > related to Gitaji shalokas. Therefore, responses which > further > > > > > clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be posted. > > > > > 2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other > scriptures > > to > > > > > substantiate your response. > > > > > 3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to > > the > > > > > extent that they further help in understanding the Gita > > shlokas > > > > > 4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, > > respecting > > > > > sadhaka's time. > > > > > 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only. > > > > > 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other > > > > > organizations. > > > > > 7. Kindly do not include your personal information such as > > phone > > > > > number, address etc. > > > > > 8. Please do not address the response to a particular > > individual > > > > > since the message is going to the entire group. > > > > > 9. Due to the large readership, all responses may not be > > posted. > > > > > 10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if > > > > content > > > > > is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the group. > > > > > 11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, > > youth, > > > > > westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use to > > > > Sanskrit > > > > > words only, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit > > > > bracketed > > > > > wherever possible. > > > > > > > > > > MODERATOR > > > > > Ram Ram > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 11, 2008 Report Share Posted June 11, 2008 Why one must not suicide? Have we done anything to build our bodies the way they are? Have we done anything to run our thought process the way it is functioning? Then what right do we have to terminate them? Who are enjoying the body-mind cluster blessed to us by God's grace? How can one who is enjoying the gifts of God be right in deciding to throw away the same? Who are we to throw our bodies? What rights do we have to judge upon the gifts graced on us? It is our duty to respect what we have received gracefully. Do we have any other means to appreciate what we are? The only path we have to seek ourselves is through the same body and mind we are blessed with. Therefore, it is our duty to serve our body-mind clusters to appreciate ourselves deeper and clearer. Our relation with our bodies and minds should be the foremost Upasana – worship with full awareness, commitment and reverence. Therefore, (1) we have no right to terminate our bodily existence; (2) it is our duty to serve the same to our best abilities; and (3) it is for our own upliftment we respect what we are blessed with. Living healthy – physically as well as mentally – is the fundamental need for spiritual progress. The root cause for all our miseries is our self-alienation – farther we are from our true selves, more miserable we will feel. Feeling miserable is the most fundamental sin of all. The very thought of suicide is the acute crystalization of all our miseries. It is our foremost duty to face our miseries and resolve their fundamental cause by getting closer to what we are rather than what we have or we have not. Therefore, it is our fundamental right as well as duty (Adhikara means responsive authority and authoritative response) to seek ourselves to affect reduction of all our miseries categorically. Therefore, we must pause on our mundane suicidal life of ignoring ourselves, watch our ignorance and get closer to ourselves as we move along rather than deviating from ourselves in our actions, thoughts and experiences. Again, that is our right as well as duty. It is time we should claim our rights and execute our duties. Therefore, Utthishthata jagrata prapya varaannibodhata | Kshurasya dhara nishita duratyaya durgam pathastat kavayo vadante || Wake up ! Get vigilent !! Approach The Right, Your Self !!! The path you tread upon in life is like a razor edge … in no time you would slip to the wrong ways, if you are not alert. Therefore … Be aware ! Be alert !! Be correct !!! Respects. Naga Narayana. Is there anything written against suicide ? Everything that is written in sanity is against suicide! The very life is designed against suicide!! Every gene in every cell of yours carries this message!!! Acknowledge the message. Understand the message. Experience the message. Receive the essence of wisdom from life. Respond to the life with wisdom. Resonate with the life as yourself. THAT IS JOY. There cannot be a room for any thoughts against the life in such JOY. Find IT. Seek IT. Be IT. This is my understanding I am blessed with from all our scriptures as well as life. Respects. Naga Narayana. -------------------------------- Bhagwat Gita is not against killing or defending or resistance with or without force but is against HINSA or Reaction. This means, life and death in the form of killing others, or sacrifice (kurbaani) of soldiers for saving the mother land in war for struggle for freedom are AHINSA or Non Reaction. Arjun was explained this concept by Sri Krishna that the act of war in a situation when laws and order get deteriorated is a duty (kartavya) for Chhatria and it is swabhaav of Arjun that will respond it and not react it. Fire is duty bound to burn and this is its swabhaav. Water has different swabhaav and it is bound to act as per it. So the purity of swabhaav is not reactive but not delayed in responses, and accepts no restriction. Had Arjun not responded to call of war and surrendered meekly to bad governance (Dus Shaasan) and bad authority (Dur Yodhan) and Structure of Government serving them (Karna i.e., structure) those born of insensitive law and order (blind Dhrat Rashtra i.e., on which a nation i.e., Rashtra rests i.e., Dhrat), that would have been a HINSA and cowerdice and life of Arjun falling from its swabhaav. Suicide is escaping from ones own self, and this is failing attempt of getting out of situation. The impression will be carried over to next life or further future, and till the time one understands own swabhaav and responds it with its ability (purusharth). Gandhi was fasting very offten and gets close to death, Jain muni also follow similar thing. But this is TAPASYA or testing of endurance to observe nature from a distance. These are not suicide or cowardice. Bhagwat Gita, in fact, begins with Kaparnya Dosho Pahatah Swabhaavah Prkshyami Twam Dharma Sammoodh Chetah That means, Arjun asking (pakshyami) Sri Krishna what to do when the swabhaav is beginning to fall (pahatah), and he gets diseased (dosho) with cowerdice of inaction (kaparnya). best regards K G(Krishna Gopal) Loving Divine, Pranam. To best of my knowledge, the message in Gitaji is - it is ok to die fighting with the enemy but killing oneself is an 'upmrityu'. To do whatever it takes to protect oneself or the nation is not considered suicide, it is called scacrifying for greater interest. No, I have NOT clearly indicated that 'the Bhagwad Gita cannot provide answers to the social and political situations and problems of all times. Unfortunately, people want to talk about BG but don't want to implement any of it's teachings. If men, would curtail their desires to control the world, greed for material pleasure, his heightened ego, his indulgence in immoral sense pleasure, his tendencies to discriminate others and treat them as low life, and his delusional living, etc. as discussed in BG and other scriptures, the world would be lot better - women & other men, will not have to suffer...! Honestly who wants to follow the path shown by Lord? Everyone wants name & fame, earn more money, still others ideas and present them as their own to build their career, who really wants God? When the intentions are delusional, how to expect that they will understand God's message in BG? I had mentioned it before also that social transformation is possible only by individual transformation but who really wants to change? Please clarify you real issue! it sure will help. humble regards, always at Thy Divine Feet Manjula Patel -------------------------------- You have clearly indicated that the Bhagwad Gita cannot provide answers to the social and political situations and problems of all times. Why should we follow the Bhagwad Gita if it cannot solve the problems of Hindus? Ashok T. Jaisinghani. Loving Divine. Pranam. The following are all based on social & political situations and are not addressed in Bhagawat Gita. I have not run across any thing in Bhagawat Gita indicating committing suicide is ok. humble regards, always at Thy Holy Feet Manjula Patel ------------------------------- What about killing one's self to escape rape, abduction, to save life of king or leader in a battlefield, to escape from enemies that may lead to torture and revealing Country's secrets ? Ashok T. Jaisinghani -------------------------------- , " sadhak_insight " <sadhak_insight wrote: > > > Pranam to all Sadhakas; > > Did Arjuna say that he wanted to commit suicide?? Where?? and When? > > In (1/46) Arjuna is ready to be killed (when unarmed) by the > Kuravas. This is not suicide, though it may be suicidal in the end. > > In fact no Kshatriya worth his salt will think of suicide because > nothing is more dear to him than a Dharma Yuddha which opens the > gates of Heaven for him (2/31) Also a Kshtriya knows that if killed > during a Dharma Yuddha, he will go straight to Heaven and if he > survives he will enjoy life tothe fullest (2/37). > > Namaskar to all. > > Suhas Gogate > - > I feel Brother B.Sathyanarayan has put it in a very beautiful way. I > too strongly think the same. Suicide is just trying to avoid one's > karma, which is impossible, and has to be completed anyways! > > > Love and Light > Jacob > - > pranam > > what about the reverse of this. one kills others if they dont follow > his path. like terrorists kill lots when they dont follow their suit. > > Pl. elaborate on geetaji. > > thanx > > raja gurdasani > > - - > , " sadhak_insight " > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > Loving Divine, > > Pranam. > > Yes, Gitaji has mentioned about Arjun ready to commit suicide in > BG > > 1:46. He was so dejected with the situation, he said to Krishna > > that it is better for me not to carry weapon or fight, rather let > > all equipped Kauravs kill me. The last sloka BG 1.47 says that > > after saying this Arjuna dropped his bow-arrows & sat down at the > > back seat of the chariott. Arjuna knew committing suicide is a > sin > > so he finds an alternate way to get killed! Looking at his > > condition, Lord calls him cowered (BG 2:3). In BG 2:11, Krishna > > even becomes sarcastic. Arjuna continues with his depressive > > attitude & not wanting to face the situation (BG 2:9). Lord > starts > > giving him advise why he should not kill himself or be upset over > > other bodies being killed BG 2:12. > > > > Also Krishna talks about what happens when people die in later > > chapters. When people die with unfulfilled desires, they have to > be > > reborn. Nature wants them to learn the life lesson but by running > > away from it they are bound to face the situation over and over > > again until they learn and transcend themselves. So it is not > good > > to commit suicide. > > > > I would suggest reading BG Chapter 1 & 2 thoroughly for better > > understanding. > > > > humble regards, > > always at Thy Holy Feet > > > > Manjula Patel > > -------------------------------- -- > > First let us understand that so called life and death _ how > > significant they are from the perspective of " SELF " and that > > of " GOD " . The correct answer is as insignificant as is our change > of > > cloths_ Gita is relevant here.There are only three elements > existing > > in this universe. JEEVA (Self), JAGDISH(God) and JAGAT(World > > including your body, mind, intellect and ego). Just as it is > > insignificant from Jeeva (Self) and Jagdish (God's) point of > view , > > from Jagat (World's) point of view also they are not at all of any > > importance because the World changes, changes and does nothing > > except changes. A change for life is death and a change for death > is > > life. > > > > Now come to " Suicide " . It is a running away from the reality. > While > > Gita doesnot specifically refer about suicide but it is abundantly > > clear that it is an act of total stupidity and cowardice. Other > > Hindu Scriptures condemn this act in no uncertain terms. Where in > > fact is the need ever to get so upset? The punishment is " non > > entitlement of human life for eons and eons " You wasted the > earlier > > life given to you. As simple as that. > > > > Vyas, N B > > -------------------------------- - > > Hare Krishna. > > I think that the right thing would be to stay alive until you die > > either by an accident > > or naturally, EVEN THOUGH you are in a vegetative state, because > > that way you'd be paying your karma, most probably a huge one!! > > Kind regards. > > > > Daniel Tkach > > -------------------------------- - > > Dear Sadaks, > > > > Why speak of Suicide when we are alive ? that is how to live > > peacefully and happily is what one needs to understand > > Thank you and best regards, > > > > Gokul Mehta > > -------------------------------- -- > > , " sadhak_insight " > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > > > Dear Sadaks, > > > > > > Suicide is ones option to terminate body from functioning. Per > my > > > understanding, the soul after suicide remains in space until the > > > time originaly alotted to a one on the 15th day of that baby in > > > womb. The body and the soul with 5 kosas (5 layers of auras) > comes > > > to this earth with package of destiny which is based on it` s > > > previous birth account of vasanas, karmas etc. > > > > > > As I understand, this soul hanging in space suffers worse than > it > > > was with body. The soul always carries along with it the kosas > > which > > > has recorded it`s vasanas (impressions in the mind), acts, etc > > > whether one dies naturally or suicide. The vasanas (impressions > of > > > the mind, desires, fancy imaginations, passioj) can be satisfied > > > only with the equipment - body. The soul, now without body gets > > > frustrated, being unable to satisfy it`s desires. > > > > > > Adi Sankara left his body and entered into a kings body for few > > days > > > to gain certain knowledge. The soul can leave the body by yoga > > > siddhi and reenter. > > > > > > By suicide one terminates the body before time span given to it. > > It > > > is my understanding that the soul neither gets fresh body or > goes > > to > > > higher level, rather it suffers until life span given to it. So > it > > > is sinful to not do the karmas that was to one's account. Such > a > > > soul gets handicapped body after it`s life span ( with body and > > time > > > without body). > > > > > > B.Sathyanarayan > > > ------------------------------ > > > Dear Sadhakas, We are all mentally committing suicide by not > > > following the tenets of Vedas, Upanishads etc., hurting other > > > people's feelings for our own physical betterment. Physical > > suicide > > > is also on account of " Prarabdha Karma " , if one believes in the > > > same. About this, much has been said in Gita. > > > G.Vaidyanathan > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > Dear all, > > > > > > In democracy, suicide is permitted by euthanasia and legislation > > in > > > EXTREME cases of body in absolutely unbearable condition. At > > times, > > > suicide is assisted by husband, wife or relative ot of sheer > pity > > > and terminate suffering, or vegetative condition from > paraplagia, > > > where only moving part of person is his eyelids, being paralysed > > > from neck downwards. > > > > > > At times sick people have travelled to other countries to get > > > assisted suicide. Dr.Kevrokian also known as Dr. Death had > number > > of > > > clients, before he wasd stopped. > > > > > > Ramesh Jhalla > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > , " sadhak_insight " > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear Sadhakas, Namaste! > > > > > > > > I don't know what Gita has said on this one, but some of us > will > > > > know it and answer. > > > > > > > > my understanding is that it is our innate/intrinsic nature to > > > exist > > > > and continue living in any condition. There are many proofs of > > > this > > > > all around us when we see even terminally ill people would > like > > to > > > > survive. It is just a natural instinct built in by God, the > > > > Intelligence itself! Suicide is thus, an unnatural act > > originating > > > > from dispairs, acute depression, or all such imaginations or > > ideas > > > > breeding fear in one! > > > > > > > > To end the body by suicide is an act of Ego, who wants to > escape > > > > from responsibility causing pains to those loved ones left > > behind. > > > > Such a person only thinks of himself/herself and the pains > > he/she > > > > cannot endure, without thinking others who might be his/her > > > > dependents. This is acting very veryselfishly. > > > > > > > > Suicide is also a missed opportunity to hope for the best and > > > > realize Truth which has been discovered by some while facing > > such > > > > acute crisis! If one has complete trust in God and thereby in > > > > oneself, one cannot commit such an act. One goes on living > > inspite > > > > of problems! > > > > > > > > A man of wisdom will never commit suicide. Such a person would > > > > always know that to end the suffering, Life is a better > > > alternative > > > > to suicide. > > > > > > > > Namaskaras... Pratap > > > > (Pratap Bhatt) > > > > ---------------------------- -- > -- > > > > This is my humble opinion. In Gita, it is not explicitly > > > > mentioned 'not to commit suicide' but eloborates on the > concept > > of > > > > death in second chapter when Arjuna is wrried about killing > his > > > own > > > > relatives. Gita states that death can be considered similarly > > as : > > > > as the soul taking different births and going thro the cycle > of > > > life > > > > and death similar to a person shunning the old clothes and > > wearing > > > > the new ones. There is no death for soul but states abour > death > > of > > > > body only, which comes from earth and becomes one with earth > as > > > the > > > > soul takes a different journey in different body. > > > > > > > > Also, Gita talks about karma yoga (concept of fulfilling your > > > > duties :whatever it may be by choice or circumstances and > > whatever > > > > you think ur duty is at that time without thinking/expecting > > > fruits > > > > for any actions at all.). > > > > > > > > If one understand this in deep, he/she also understands that > > there > > > > is no worry in life about anything since whatever it is, you > can > > > > just offer /surrender that complete activity onto that > Supreme. > > If > > > > one is able to surrender to that God, he is free of > > > > worries/stress/depression /etc and then one will will be able > to > > > > understand that there is no need to commit suicide at all. > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > Bharathi > > > > ---------------------------- -- > > > > We all are commiting suicide everday. To jump before train, or > > > fast > > > > unto death is conventional definition but if one is drinking > > > > alcohol, eating tobacco or living a diseased life style, these > > are > > > > all known and voluntary action of self-destruction. > > > > > > > > Gita only says about life and death as manifestation of > certain > > > > appearance as per our true nature (svabhaav). Actually, the > > real > > > > person does not die and comes back again to know the purpose > of > > > life > > > > rather than rejecting it. > > > > Regards > > > > K G > > > > (Krishna Gopal) > > > > ---------------------------- -- > -- > > > > Thank you for your duty, be blessed by all Gods, that they > fill > > > your > > > > heart with love and trust in the power of Shiva . > > > > > > > > please if possible, send me more about this subject. I am fed > > up > > > > with my western woman hindu body. > > > > Very hard penance > > > > > > > > OM EIN KALINK CHAMUNDAYE VITCHE OM > > > > shiva shakti shanti > > > > > > > > shanti > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------- -- > -- > > - > > > > , " sadhak_insight " > > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why one must not commit suicide ? > > > > > Is there anything written against suicide ? > > > > > Does Gita say anything about this ? Please elaborate > > > > > > > > > > pandek > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: > > > > > 1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify their > > doubts > > > > > related to Gitaji shalokas. Therefore, responses which > further > > > > > clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be posted. > > > > > 2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other > scriptures > > to > > > > > substantiate your response. > > > > > 3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to > > the > > > > > extent that they further help in understanding the Gita > > shlokas > > > > > 4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, > > respecting > > > > > sadhaka's time. > > > > > 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only. > > > > > 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other > > > > > organizations. > > > > > 7. Kindly do not include your personal information such as > > phone > > > > > number, address etc. > > > > > 8. Please do not address the response to a particular > > individual > > > > > since the message is going to the entire group. > > > > > 9. Due to the large readership, all responses may not be > > posted. > > > > > 10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if > > > > content > > > > > is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the group. > > > > > 11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, > > youth, > > > > > westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use to > > > > Sanskrit > > > > > words only, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit > > > > bracketed > > > > > wherever possible. > > > > > > > > > > MODERATOR > > > > > Ram Ram > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 12, 2008 Report Share Posted June 12, 2008 Why one must not commit suicide? Simply because as per Hinduism, it is against the very principle of nonviolence. The concept of nonviolence is not only applicable towards others but more so to oneself and perhaps to a much larger degree. A violence performed onto oneself is perhaps a bigger sin.. -Ravi Khattree Hinsa or violence is undesirable whether to own self or to others. This (hinsa, violence) is violation of the Dharma (self nature in free and independent state). TAPASYA is enduring the nature without recognizing its adverse effect, and this then end up in TYAG (renunciation). TAPSYA is not suicide or killing but an experiment with truth as did Gandhi. Jain muni have similar penance. TYAG (sacrifice) is a little different which also involves loss of life such as soldiers in war ready to kill and get killed for defense of a country, or ladies of Indian rulers with cool mind chosen to self immolate and defend the honour and deprivation from Khiljii. Similarly, sons of Sikh rulers also sacrificed for the traditional honour and self respect without surrendering to Mughals. BALI : Sacrifice of life is also for gaining knowledge. In medical sciences, animals and human trials are conducted for new drug or medical procedure as a part of study. These sacrifices of human and animals are for gaining knowede so that cause of diseases of known, and solved. Bali is not for eating animals and making business of meat and animal products. COWARDICE this is hinsa or violation where death is not in best choice, but a desperation. Killing animals for food, leather etc.. and accidents, suicides, killed by diseases are examples of AKAL MRITYU and all are cowardice. Regards K G (Krishna Gopal) - May I suggest to the learned scholars that they may consider supplementing with the consequences of " suicide " . (Binu Bhaya hoye na priti...). What happens after suicide? Where does that soul go? What yoni he gets in next birth. How he suffers in that next birth etc.? Hopefully keeping in context with Gitaji. A.H.Dalmia. - , " sadhak_insight " <sadhak_insight wrote: > > Why one must not suicide? > > Have we done anything to build our bodies the way they are? Have we > done anything to run our thought process the way it is functioning? > Then what right do we have to terminate them? > > Who are enjoying the body-mind cluster blessed to us by God's grace? > How can one who is enjoying the gifts of God be right in deciding to > throw away the same? Who are we to throw our bodies? What rights do > we have to judge upon the gifts graced on us? It is our duty to > respect what we have received gracefully. > > Do we have any other means to appreciate what we are? The only path > we have to seek ourselves is through the same body and mind we are > blessed with. Therefore, it is our duty to serve our body-mind > clusters to appreciate ourselves deeper and clearer. Our relation > with our bodies and minds should be the foremost Upasana – worship > with full awareness, commitment and reverence. > > Therefore, (1) we have no right to terminate our bodily existence; > (2) it is our duty to serve the same to our best abilities; and (3) > it is for our own upliftment we respect what we are blessed with. > Living healthy – physically as well as mentally – is the fundamental > need for spiritual progress. > > The root cause for all our miseries is our self-alienation – farther > we are from our true selves, more miserable we will feel. Feeling > miserable is the most fundamental sin of all. The very thought of > suicide is the acute crystalization of all our miseries. It is our > foremost duty to face our miseries and resolve their fundamental > cause by getting closer to what we are rather than what we have or > we have not. Therefore, it is our fundamental right as well as duty > (Adhikara means responsive authority and authoritative response) to > seek ourselves to affect reduction of all our miseries > categorically. Therefore, we must pause on our mundane suicidal life > of ignoring ourselves, watch our ignorance and get closer to > ourselves as we move along rather than deviating from ourselves in > our actions, thoughts and experiences. Again, that is our right as > well as duty. It is time we should claim our rights and execute our > duties. Therefore, > > Utthishthata jagrata prapya varaannibodhata | > Kshurasya dhara nishita duratyaya durgam pathastat kavayo vadante || > > Wake up ! Get vigilent !! Approach The Right, Your Self !!! > The path you tread upon in life is like a razor edge … in no time > you would slip to the wrong ways, if you are not alert. Therefore … > Be aware ! Be alert !! Be correct !!! > > Respects. > > Naga Narayana. > > > Is there anything written against suicide ? > > Everything that is written in sanity is against suicide! The very > life is designed against suicide!! Every gene in every cell of yours > carries this message!!! > > Acknowledge the message. Understand the message. Experience the > message. > > Receive the essence of wisdom from life. Respond to the life with > wisdom. Resonate with the life as yourself. THAT IS JOY. There > cannot be a room for any thoughts against the life in such JOY. Find > IT. Seek IT. Be IT. > > This is my understanding I am blessed with from all our scriptures > as well as life. > > Respects. > > Naga Narayana. > -------------------------------- > Bhagwat Gita is not against killing or defending or resistance with > or without force but is against HINSA or Reaction. This means, life > and death in the form of killing others, or sacrifice (kurbaani) of > soldiers for saving the mother land in war for struggle for freedom > are AHINSA or Non Reaction. Arjun was explained this concept by Sri > Krishna that the act of war in a situation when laws and order get > deteriorated is a duty (kartavya) for Chhatria and it is swabhaav of > Arjun that will respond it and not react it. Fire is duty bound to > burn and this is its swabhaav. Water has different swabhaav and it > is bound to act as per it. So the purity of swabhaav is not reactive > but not delayed in responses, and accepts no restriction. > > Had Arjun not responded to call of war and surrendered meekly to bad > governance (Dus Shaasan) and bad authority (Dur Yodhan) and > Structure of Government serving them (Karna i.e., structure) those > born of insensitive law and order (blind Dhrat Rashtra i.e., on > which a nation i.e., Rashtra rests i.e., Dhrat), that would have > been a HINSA and cowerdice and life of Arjun falling from its > swabhaav. > > Suicide is escaping from ones own self, and this is failing attempt > of getting out of situation. The impression will be carried over to > next life or further future, and till the time one understands own > swabhaav and responds it with its ability (purusharth). Gandhi was > fasting very offten and gets close to death, Jain muni also follow > similar thing. But this is TAPASYA or testing of endurance to > observe nature from a distance. These are not suicide or cowardice. > > > Bhagwat Gita, in fact, begins with > Kaparnya Dosho Pahatah Swabhaavah > Prkshyami Twam Dharma Sammoodh Chetah > > That means, Arjun asking (pakshyami) Sri Krishna what to do when the > swabhaav is beginning to fall (pahatah), and he gets diseased > (dosho) with cowerdice of inaction (kaparnya). > > best regards > K G(Krishna Gopal) > > > Loving Divine, > Pranam. > To best of my knowledge, the message in Gitaji is - it is ok to die > fighting with the enemy but killing oneself is an 'upmrityu'. To do > whatever it takes to protect oneself or the nation is not considered > suicide, it is called scacrifying for greater interest. > > No, I have NOT clearly indicated that 'the Bhagwad Gita cannot > provide answers to the social and political situations and problems > of all times. > > Unfortunately, people want to talk about BG but don't want to > implement any of it's teachings. If men, would curtail their > desires to control the world, greed for material pleasure, his > heightened ego, his indulgence in immoral sense pleasure, his > tendencies to discriminate others and treat them as low life, and > his delusional living, etc. as discussed in BG and other scriptures, > the world would be lot better - women & other men, will not have to > suffer...! Honestly who wants to follow the path shown by Lord? > > Everyone wants name & fame, earn more money, still others ideas and > present them as their own to build their career, who really wants > God? When the intentions are delusional, how to expect that they > will understand God's message in BG? I had mentioned it before also > that social transformation is possible only by individual > transformation but who really wants to change? > > Please clarify you real issue! it sure will help. > > humble regards, > always at Thy Divine Feet > Manjula Patel > > -------------------------------- > You have clearly indicated that the Bhagwad Gita cannot > provide answers to the social and political situations and > problems of all times. Why should we follow the Bhagwad > Gita if it cannot solve the problems of Hindus? > Ashok T. Jaisinghani. > > > Loving Divine. > Pranam. > The following are all based on social & political situations and are > not addressed in Bhagawat Gita. I have not run across any thing in > Bhagawat Gita indicating committing suicide is ok. > humble regards, > always at Thy Holy Feet > > Manjula Patel > ------------------------------- > What about killing one's self to escape rape, abduction, to save > life of king or leader in a battlefield, to escape from enemies that > may lead to torture and revealing Country's secrets ? > > Ashok T. Jaisinghani > -------------------------------- > , " sadhak_insight " > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > > > Pranam to all Sadhakas; > > > > Did Arjuna say that he wanted to commit suicide?? Where?? and When? > > > > In (1/46) Arjuna is ready to be killed (when unarmed) by the > > Kuravas. This is not suicide, though it may be suicidal in the > end. > > > > In fact no Kshatriya worth his salt will think of suicide because > > nothing is more dear to him than a Dharma Yuddha which opens the > > gates of Heaven for him (2/31) Also a Kshtriya knows that if > killed > > during a Dharma Yuddha, he will go straight to Heaven and if he > > survives he will enjoy life tothe fullest (2/37). > > > > Namaskar to all. > > > > Suhas Gogate > > -------------------------------- -- > > I feel Brother B.Sathyanarayan has put it in a very beautiful way. > I > > too strongly think the same. Suicide is just trying to avoid one's > > karma, which is impossible, and has to be completed anyways! > > > > > > Love and Light > > Jacob > > -------------------------------- -- > > pranam > > > > what about the reverse of this. one kills others if they dont > follow > > his path. like terrorists kill lots when they dont follow their > suit. > > > > Pl. elaborate on geetaji. > > > > thanx > > > > raja gurdasani > > > > -------------------------------- -- > - > > , " sadhak_insight " > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > > > Loving Divine, > > > Pranam. > > > Yes, Gitaji has mentioned about Arjun ready to commit suicide in > > BG > > > 1:46. He was so dejected with the situation, he said to Krishna > > > that it is better for me not to carry weapon or fight, rather > let > > > all equipped Kauravs kill me. The last sloka BG 1.47 says that > > > after saying this Arjuna dropped his bow-arrows & sat down at > the > > > back seat of the chariott. Arjuna knew committing suicide is a > > sin > > > so he finds an alternate way to get killed! Looking at his > > > condition, Lord calls him cowered (BG 2:3). In BG 2:11, Krishna > > > even becomes sarcastic. Arjuna continues with his depressive > > > attitude & not wanting to face the situation (BG 2:9). Lord > > starts > > > giving him advise why he should not kill himself or be upset > over > > > other bodies being killed BG 2:12. > > > > > > Also Krishna talks about what happens when people die in later > > > chapters. When people die with unfulfilled desires, they have > to > > be > > > reborn. Nature wants them to learn the life lesson but by > running > > > away from it they are bound to face the situation over and over > > > again until they learn and transcend themselves. So it is not > > good > > > to commit suicide. > > > > > > I would suggest reading BG Chapter 1 & 2 thoroughly for better > > > understanding. > > > > > > humble regards, > > > always at Thy Holy Feet > > > > > > Manjula Patel > > > ------------------------------ -- > -- > > > First let us understand that so called life and death _ how > > > significant they are from the perspective of " SELF " and that > > > of " GOD " . The correct answer is as insignificant as is our > change > > of > > > cloths_ Gita is relevant here.There are only three elements > > existing > > > in this universe. JEEVA (Self), JAGDISH(God) and JAGAT(World > > > including your body, mind, intellect and ego). Just as it is > > > insignificant from Jeeva (Self) and Jagdish (God's) point of > > view , > > > from Jagat (World's) point of view also they are not at all of > any > > > importance because the World changes, changes and does nothing > > > except changes. A change for life is death and a change for > death > > is > > > life. > > > > > > Now come to " Suicide " . It is a running away from the reality. > > While > > > Gita doesnot specifically refer about suicide but it is > abundantly > > > clear that it is an act of total stupidity and cowardice. Other > > > Hindu Scriptures condemn this act in no uncertain terms. Where > in > > > fact is the need ever to get so upset? The punishment is " non > > > entitlement of human life for eons and eons " You wasted the > > earlier > > > life given to you. As simple as that. > > > > > > Vyas, N B > > > ------------------------------ -- > - > > > Hare Krishna. > > > I think that the right thing would be to stay alive until you > die > > > either by an accident > > > or naturally, EVEN THOUGH you are in a vegetative state, because > > > that way you'd be paying your karma, most probably a huge one!! > > > Kind regards. > > > > > > Daniel Tkach > > > ------------------------------ -- > - > > > Dear Sadaks, > > > > > > Why speak of Suicide when we are alive ? that is how to live > > > peacefully and happily is what one needs to understand > > > Thank you and best regards, > > > > > > Gokul Mehta > > > ------------------------------ -- > -- > > > , " sadhak_insight " > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear Sadaks, > > > > > > > > Suicide is ones option to terminate body from functioning. Per > > my > > > > understanding, the soul after suicide remains in space until > the > > > > time originaly alotted to a one on the 15th day of that baby > in > > > > womb. The body and the soul with 5 kosas (5 layers of auras) > > comes > > > > to this earth with package of destiny which is based on it` s > > > > previous birth account of vasanas, karmas etc. > > > > > > > > As I understand, this soul hanging in space suffers worse than > > it > > > > was with body. The soul always carries along with it the kosas > > > which > > > > has recorded it`s vasanas (impressions in the mind), acts, etc > > > > whether one dies naturally or suicide. The vasanas > (impressions > > of > > > > the mind, desires, fancy imaginations, passioj) can be > satisfied > > > > only with the equipment - body. The soul, now without body > gets > > > > frustrated, being unable to satisfy it`s desires. > > > > > > > > Adi Sankara left his body and entered into a kings body for > few > > > days > > > > to gain certain knowledge. The soul can leave the body by yoga > > > > siddhi and reenter. > > > > > > > > By suicide one terminates the body before time span given to > it. > > > It > > > > is my understanding that the soul neither gets fresh body or > > goes > > > to > > > > higher level, rather it suffers until life span given to it. > So > > it > > > > is sinful to not do the karmas that was to one's account. > Such > > a > > > > soul gets handicapped body after it`s life span ( with body > and > > > time > > > > without body). > > > > > > > > B.Sathyanarayan > > > > ---------------------------- -- > > > > Dear Sadhakas, We are all mentally committing suicide by not > > > > following the tenets of Vedas, Upanishads etc., hurting other > > > > people's feelings for our own physical betterment. Physical > > > suicide > > > > is also on account of " Prarabdha Karma " , if one believes in > the > > > > same. About this, much has been said in Gita. > > > > G.Vaidyanathan > > > > > > > > ---------------------------- -- > > > > Dear all, > > > > > > > > In democracy, suicide is permitted by euthanasia and > legislation > > > in > > > > EXTREME cases of body in absolutely unbearable condition. At > > > times, > > > > suicide is assisted by husband, wife or relative ot of sheer > > pity > > > > and terminate suffering, or vegetative condition from > > paraplagia, > > > > where only moving part of person is his eyelids, being > paralysed > > > > from neck downwards. > > > > > > > > At times sick people have travelled to other countries to get > > > > assisted suicide. Dr.Kevrokian also known as Dr. Death had > > number > > > of > > > > clients, before he wasd stopped. > > > > > > > > Ramesh Jhalla > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------- -- > > > > , " sadhak_insight " > > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Dear Sadhakas, Namaste! > > > > > > > > > > I don't know what Gita has said on this one, but some of us > > will > > > > > know it and answer. > > > > > > > > > > my understanding is that it is our innate/intrinsic nature > to > > > > exist > > > > > and continue living in any condition. There are many proofs > of > > > > this > > > > > all around us when we see even terminally ill people would > > like > > > to > > > > > survive. It is just a natural instinct built in by God, the > > > > > Intelligence itself! Suicide is thus, an unnatural act > > > originating > > > > > from dispairs, acute depression, or all such imaginations or > > > ideas > > > > > breeding fear in one! > > > > > > > > > > To end the body by suicide is an act of Ego, who wants to > > escape > > > > > from responsibility causing pains to those loved ones left > > > behind. > > > > > Such a person only thinks of himself/herself and the pains > > > he/she > > > > > cannot endure, without thinking others who might be his/her > > > > > dependents. This is acting very veryselfishly. > > > > > > > > > > Suicide is also a missed opportunity to hope for the best > and > > > > > realize Truth which has been discovered by some while facing > > > such > > > > > acute crisis! If one has complete trust in God and thereby > in > > > > > oneself, one cannot commit such an act. One goes on living > > > inspite > > > > > of problems! > > > > > > > > > > A man of wisdom will never commit suicide. Such a person > would > > > > > always know that to end the suffering, Life is a better > > > > alternative > > > > > to suicide. > > > > > > > > > > Namaskaras... Pratap > > > > > (Pratap Bhatt) > > > > > -------------------------- -- > -- > > -- > > > > > This is my humble opinion. In Gita, it is not explicitly > > > > > mentioned 'not to commit suicide' but eloborates on the > > concept > > > of > > > > > death in second chapter when Arjuna is wrried about killing > > his > > > > own > > > > > relatives. Gita states that death can be considered > similarly > > > as : > > > > > as the soul taking different births and going thro the cycle > > of > > > > life > > > > > and death similar to a person shunning the old clothes and > > > wearing > > > > > the new ones. There is no death for soul but states abour > > death > > > of > > > > > body only, which comes from earth and becomes one with earth > > as > > > > the > > > > > soul takes a different journey in different body. > > > > > > > > > > Also, Gita talks about karma yoga (concept of fulfilling > your > > > > > duties :whatever it may be by choice or circumstances and > > > whatever > > > > > you think ur duty is at that time without thinking/expecting > > > > fruits > > > > > for any actions at all.). > > > > > > > > > > If one understand this in deep, he/she also understands that > > > there > > > > > is no worry in life about anything since whatever it is, you > > can > > > > > just offer /surrender that complete activity onto that > > Supreme. > > > If > > > > > one is able to surrender to that God, he is free of > > > > > worries/stress/depression /etc and then one will will be > able > > to > > > > > understand that there is no need to commit suicide at all. > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > Bharathi > > > > > -------------------------- -- > -- > > > > > We all are commiting suicide everday. To jump before train, > or > > > > fast > > > > > unto death is conventional definition but if one is drinking > > > > > alcohol, eating tobacco or living a diseased life style, > these > > > are > > > > > all known and voluntary action of self-destruction. > > > > > > > > > > Gita only says about life and death as manifestation of > > certain > > > > > appearance as per our true nature (svabhaav). Actually, the > > > real > > > > > person does not die and comes back again to know the purpose > > of > > > > life > > > > > rather than rejecting it. > > > > > Regards > > > > > K G > > > > > (Krishna Gopal) > > > > > -------------------------- -- > -- > > -- > > > > > Thank you for your duty, be blessed by all Gods, that they > > fill > > > > your > > > > > heart with love and trust in the power of Shiva . > > > > > > > > > > please if possible, send me more about this subject. I am > fed > > > up > > > > > with my western woman hindu body. > > > > > Very hard penance > > > > > > > > > > OM EIN KALINK CHAMUNDAYE VITCHE OM > > > > > shiva shakti shanti > > > > > > > > > > shanti > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------- -- > -- > > -- > > > - > > > > > , " sadhak_insight " > > > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why one must not commit suicide ? > > > > > > Is there anything written against suicide ? > > > > > > Does Gita say anything about this ? Please elaborate > > > > > > > > > > > > pandek > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: > > > > > > 1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify their > > > doubts > > > > > > related to Gitaji shalokas. Therefore, responses which > > further > > > > > > clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be posted. > > > > > > 2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other > > scriptures > > > to > > > > > > substantiate your response. > > > > > > 3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. > to > > > the > > > > > > extent that they further help in understanding the Gita > > > shlokas > > > > > > 4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, > > > respecting > > > > > > sadhaka's time. > > > > > > 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only. > > > > > > 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other > > > > > > organizations. > > > > > > 7. Kindly do not include your personal information such as > > > phone > > > > > > number, address etc. > > > > > > 8. Please do not address the response to a particular > > > individual > > > > > > since the message is going to the entire group. > > > > > > 9. Due to the large readership, all responses may not be > > > posted. > > > > > > 10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, > if > > > > > content > > > > > > is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the > group. > > > > > > 11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, > > > youth, > > > > > > westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use > to > > > > > Sanskrit > > > > > > words only, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit > > > > > bracketed > > > > > > wherever possible. > > > > > > > > > > > > MODERATOR > > > > > > Ram Ram > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 19, 2008 Report Share Posted June 19, 2008 shree hari Ram Ram In many lectures when asked about suicide, Swamiji emphasized the rarity of receiving a human birth. It is only in this form of birth that God Realization is possible, freeing this embodied soul once and for all from the cycle of birth and death. There is 8.4 millions different life forms, but only by His grace we have in the middle received this human body and birth. With this human body, many amazing things are possible. We can become eternally free of all sorrows. Out of God's grace and compassion He has given us this human birth, then do you believe His grace will be of no avail? Does it make any sense to not eat food after everything has been prepared for us, placed on a silver plate and served to us ? His grace can never go to waste. Yes! God has given man the freedom. With this freedom, man has the choice of utilizing this freedom to attain salvation. On the other hand, man has the choice of mis-utilizing and going into the vicious cycle of 8.4 million different forms of births, or going to hell. Now ! Does is make any sense to commit suicide and get trapped into another life form and not know when we will have the opportunity again to get out of that cycle? Most importantly, we have no such rights to destroy that which does not belong to us ! In reality, this freedom has been provided to man to uplift himself and only to attain salvation and not for misusing it. Meera Das Ram Ram -------------------------------- Hello everyone, I saw the below question in the email thread.. : > You have clearly indicated that the Bhagwad Gita cannot > provide answers to the social and political situations and > problems of all times. Why should we follow the Bhagwad > Gita if it cannot solve the problems of Hindus? > Ashok T. Jaisinghani. This is my humble opinion regarding the above question. Please do not come to conclusion about what others say whether its mentioned in Bhagavadgita or not...please try to understand the gist of Bhagavdgita by your own self and your own understanding which will open the doors to new perspective. Some questions are very difficult to answer 'yes' or 'no' with respect to..whether Bhagavad Gita covers certain subject or not...Bhagavd Gita is not like any other subject..(any scriptures for that matter) because the mind is a mysterious thing and hence these teaching once you go through step by step understanding what it means to you will be the great first step. Again, after reading them..it may be better idea not to think why others are not going in the right path or not..its only to yourself..these teachings are all for only oneself and once you try to practice whatever you feel right in your heart..then you can feel the peace will be in ur heart irrespective of whatever that comes your way. this is my humble opinion again. Regards, Bharathi - Nowadays, nobody shouldd commit suicide because in the pretext of that, a lot of suicide bombers by their agenda of 'attaining martyrdom', have threatened global peace. This has also led to the abuse of a sacred religious ideal namely dying for the nobility, for certain virtues, values, for saving mothers, children, the motherland etc. All might die; but nobody has the right to kill including himself or herself. Dr Shastry --- , " sadhak_insight " <sadhak_insight wrote: > > Why one must not commit suicide? Simply because as per Hinduism, it > is against the very principle of nonviolence. The concept of > nonviolence is not only applicable towards others but more so to > oneself and perhaps to a much larger degree. A violence performed > onto oneself is perhaps a bigger sin.. > > -Ravi Khattree > > Hinsa or violence is undesirable whether to own self or to others. > This (hinsa, violence) is violation of the Dharma (self nature in > free and independent state). TAPASYA is enduring the nature without > recognizing its adverse effect, and this then end up in TYAG > (renunciation). TAPSYA is not suicide or killing but an experiment > with truth as did Gandhi. Jain muni have similar penance. > TYAG (sacrifice) is a little different which also involves loss of > life such as soldiers in war ready to kill and get killed for > defense of a country, or ladies of Indian rulers with cool mind > chosen to self immolate and defend the honour and deprivation from > Khiljii. Similarly, sons of Sikh rulers also sacrificed for the > traditional honour and self respect without surrendering to Mughals. > > BALI : Sacrifice of life is also for gaining knowledge. In medical > sciences, animals and human trials are conducted for new drug or > medical procedure as a part of study. These sacrifices of human and > animals are for gaining knowede so that cause of diseases of known, > and solved. Bali is not for eating animals and making business of > meat and animal products. > > COWARDICE this is hinsa or violation where death is not in best > choice, but a desperation. Killing animals for food, leather etc.. > and accidents, suicides, killed by diseases are examples of AKAL > MRITYU and all are cowardice. > Regards > K G > (Krishna Gopal) > - > > May I suggest to the learned scholars that they may consider supplementing with the consequences of " suicide " . (Binu Bhaya hoye na priti...). What happens after suicide? Where does that soul go? What yoni he gets in next birth. How he suffers in that next birth etc.? > Hopefully keeping in context with Gitaji. > > A.H.Dalmia. > > - > , " sadhak_insight " > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > Why one must not suicide? > > > > Have we done anything to build our bodies the way they are? Have we > > done anything to run our thought process the way it is functioning? > > Then what right do we have to terminate them? > > > > Who are enjoying the body-mind cluster blessed to us by God's > grace? > > How can one who is enjoying the gifts of God be right in deciding > to > > throw away the same? Who are we to throw our bodies? What rights do > > we have to judge upon the gifts graced on us? It is our duty to > > respect what we have received gracefully. > > > > Do we have any other means to appreciate what we are? The only path > > we have to seek ourselves is through the same body and mind we are > > blessed with. Therefore, it is our duty to serve our body-mind > > clusters to appreciate ourselves deeper and clearer. Our relation > > with our bodies and minds should be the foremost Upasana – worship > > with full awareness, commitment and reverence. > > > > Therefore, (1) we have no right to terminate our bodily existence; > > (2) it is our duty to serve the same to our best abilities; and (3) > > it is for our own upliftment we respect what we are blessed with. > > Living healthy – physically as well as mentally – is the > fundamental > > need for spiritual progress. > > > > The root cause for all our miseries is our self-alienation – > farther > > we are from our true selves, more miserable we will feel. Feeling > > miserable is the most fundamental sin of all. The very thought of > > suicide is the acute crystalization of all our miseries. It is our > > foremost duty to face our miseries and resolve their fundamental > > cause by getting closer to what we are rather than what we have or > > we have not. Therefore, it is our fundamental right as well as duty > > (Adhikara means responsive authority and authoritative response) to > > seek ourselves to affect reduction of all our miseries > > categorically. Therefore, we must pause on our mundane suicidal > life > > of ignoring ourselves, watch our ignorance and get closer to > > ourselves as we move along rather than deviating from ourselves in > > our actions, thoughts and experiences. Again, that is our right as > > well as duty. It is time we should claim our rights and execute our > > duties. Therefore, > > > > Utthishthata jagrata prapya varaannibodhata | > > Kshurasya dhara nishita duratyaya durgam pathastat kavayo vadante > || > > > > Wake up ! Get vigilent !! Approach The Right, Your Self !!! > > The path you tread upon in life is like a razor edge … in no time > > you would slip to the wrong ways, if you are not alert. Therefore … > > Be aware ! Be alert !! Be correct !!! > > > > Respects. > > > > Naga Narayana. > > > > > > Is there anything written against suicide ? > > > > Everything that is written in sanity is against suicide! The very > > life is designed against suicide!! Every gene in every cell of > yours > > carries this message!!! > > > > Acknowledge the message. Understand the message. Experience the > > message. > > > > Receive the essence of wisdom from life. Respond to the life with > > wisdom. Resonate with the life as yourself. THAT IS JOY. There > > cannot be a room for any thoughts against the life in such JOY. > Find > > IT. Seek IT. Be IT. > > > > This is my understanding I am blessed with from all our scriptures > > as well as life. > > > > Respects. > > > > Naga Narayana. > > -------------------------------- > > Bhagwat Gita is not against killing or defending or resistance > with > > or without force but is against HINSA or Reaction. This means, > life > > and death in the form of killing others, or sacrifice (kurbaani) > of > > soldiers for saving the mother land in war for struggle for > freedom > > are AHINSA or Non Reaction. Arjun was explained this concept by > Sri > > Krishna that the act of war in a situation when laws and order get > > deteriorated is a duty (kartavya) for Chhatria and it is swabhaav > of > > Arjun that will respond it and not react it. Fire is duty bound > to > > burn and this is its swabhaav. Water has different swabhaav and it > > is bound to act as per it. So the purity of swabhaav is not > reactive > > but not delayed in responses, and accepts no restriction. > > > > Had Arjun not responded to call of war and surrendered meekly to > bad > > governance (Dus Shaasan) and bad authority (Dur Yodhan) and > > Structure of Government serving them (Karna i.e., structure) > those > > born of insensitive law and order (blind Dhrat Rashtra i.e., on > > which a nation i.e., Rashtra rests i.e., Dhrat), that would have > > been a HINSA and cowerdice and life of Arjun falling from its > > swabhaav. > > > > Suicide is escaping from ones own self, and this is failing > attempt > > of getting out of situation. The impression will be carried over > to > > next life or further future, and till the time one understands own > > swabhaav and responds it with its ability (purusharth). Gandhi was > > fasting very offten and gets close to death, Jain muni also follow > > similar thing. But this is TAPASYA or testing of endurance to > > observe nature from a distance. These are not suicide or > cowardice. > > > > > > Bhagwat Gita, in fact, begins with > > Kaparnya Dosho Pahatah Swabhaavah > > Prkshyami Twam Dharma Sammoodh Chetah > > > > That means, Arjun asking (pakshyami) Sri Krishna what to do when > the > > swabhaav is beginning to fall (pahatah), and he gets diseased > > (dosho) with cowerdice of inaction (kaparnya). > > > > best regards > > K G(Krishna Gopal) > > > > -------------------------------- - > > Loving Divine, > > Pranam. > > To best of my knowledge, the message in Gitaji is - it is ok to > die > > fighting with the enemy but killing oneself is an 'upmrityu'. To > do > > whatever it takes to protect oneself or the nation is not > considered > > suicide, it is called scacrifying for greater interest. > > > > No, I have NOT clearly indicated that 'the Bhagwad Gita cannot > > provide answers to the social and political situations and > problems > > of all times. > > > > Unfortunately, people want to talk about BG but don't want to > > implement any of it's teachings. If men, would curtail their > > desires to control the world, greed for material pleasure, his > > heightened ego, his indulgence in immoral sense pleasure, his > > tendencies to discriminate others and treat them as low life, and > > his delusional living, etc. as discussed in BG and other > scriptures, > > the world would be lot better - women & other men, will not have > to > > suffer...! Honestly who wants to follow the path shown by Lord? > > > > Everyone wants name & fame, earn more money, still others ideas > and > > present them as their own to build their career, who really wants > > God? When the intentions are delusional, how to expect that they > > will understand God's message in BG? I had mentioned it before > also > > that social transformation is possible only by individual > > transformation but who really wants to change? > > > > Please clarify you real issue! it sure will help. > > > > humble regards, > > always at Thy Divine Feet > > Manjula Patel > > > > -------------------------------- > > You have clearly indicated that the Bhagwad Gita cannot > > provide answers to the social and political situations and > > problems of all times. Why should we follow the Bhagwad > > Gita if it cannot solve the problems of Hindus? > > Ashok T. Jaisinghani. > > > > -------------------------------- - > > Loving Divine. > > Pranam. > > The following are all based on social & political situations and > are > > not addressed in Bhagawat Gita. I have not run across any thing in > > Bhagawat Gita indicating committing suicide is ok. > > humble regards, > > always at Thy Holy Feet > > > > Manjula Patel > > ------------------------------- > > What about killing one's self to escape rape, abduction, to save > > life of king or leader in a battlefield, to escape from enemies > that > > may lead to torture and revealing Country's secrets ? > > > > Ashok T. Jaisinghani > > -------------------------------- > > , " sadhak_insight " > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Pranam to all Sadhakas; > > > > > > Did Arjuna say that he wanted to commit suicide?? Where?? and > When? > > > > > > In (1/46) Arjuna is ready to be killed (when unarmed) by the > > > Kuravas. This is not suicide, though it may be suicidal in the > > end. > > > > > > In fact no Kshatriya worth his salt will think of suicide > because > > > nothing is more dear to him than a Dharma Yuddha which opens > the > > > gates of Heaven for him (2/31) Also a Kshtriya knows that if > > killed > > > during a Dharma Yuddha, he will go straight to Heaven and if he > > > survives he will enjoy life tothe fullest (2/37). > > > > > > Namaskar to all. > > > > > > Suhas Gogate > > > ------------------------------ -- > -- > > > I feel Brother B.Sathyanarayan has put it in a very beautiful > way. > > I > > > too strongly think the same. Suicide is just trying to avoid > one's > > > karma, which is impossible, and has to be completed anyways! > > > > > > > > > Love and Light > > > Jacob > > > ------------------------------ -- > -- > > > pranam > > > > > > what about the reverse of this. one kills others if they dont > > follow > > > his path. like terrorists kill lots when they dont follow their > > suit. > > > > > > Pl. elaborate on geetaji. > > > > > > thanx > > > > > > raja gurdasani > > > > > > ------------------------------ -- > -- > > - > > > , " sadhak_insight " > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Loving Divine, > > > > Pranam. > > > > Yes, Gitaji has mentioned about Arjun ready to commit suicide > in > > > BG > > > > 1:46. He was so dejected with the situation, he said to > Krishna > > > > that it is better for me not to carry weapon or fight, rather > > let > > > > all equipped Kauravs kill me. The last sloka BG 1.47 says > that > > > > after saying this Arjuna dropped his bow-arrows & sat down at > > the > > > > back seat of the chariott. Arjuna knew committing suicide is > a > > > sin > > > > so he finds an alternate way to get killed! Looking at his > > > > condition, Lord calls him cowered (BG 2:3). In BG 2:11, > Krishna > > > > even becomes sarcastic. Arjuna continues with his depressive > > > > attitude & not wanting to face the situation (BG 2:9). Lord > > > starts > > > > giving him advise why he should not kill himself or be upset > > over > > > > other bodies being killed BG 2:12. > > > > > > > > Also Krishna talks about what happens when people die in later > > > > chapters. When people die with unfulfilled desires, they have > > to > > > be > > > > reborn. Nature wants them to learn the life lesson but by > > running > > > > away from it they are bound to face the situation over and > over > > > > again until they learn and transcend themselves. So it is not > > > good > > > > to commit suicide. > > > > > > > > I would suggest reading BG Chapter 1 & 2 thoroughly for better > > > > understanding. > > > > > > > > humble regards, > > > > always at Thy Holy Feet > > > > > > > > Manjula Patel > > > > ---------------------------- -- > -- > > -- > > > > First let us understand that so called life and death _ how > > > > significant they are from the perspective of " SELF " and that > > > > of " GOD " . The correct answer is as insignificant as is our > > change > > > of > > > > cloths_ Gita is relevant here.There are only three elements > > > existing > > > > in this universe. JEEVA (Self), JAGDISH(God) and JAGAT(World > > > > including your body, mind, intellect and ego). Just as it is > > > > insignificant from Jeeva (Self) and Jagdish (God's) point of > > > view , > > > > from Jagat (World's) point of view also they are not at all of > > any > > > > importance because the World changes, changes and does nothing > > > > except changes. A change for life is death and a change for > > death > > > is > > > > life. > > > > > > > > Now come to " Suicide " . It is a running away from the reality. > > > While > > > > Gita doesnot specifically refer about suicide but it is > > abundantly > > > > clear that it is an act of total stupidity and cowardice. > Other > > > > Hindu Scriptures condemn this act in no uncertain terms. > Where > > in > > > > fact is the need ever to get so upset? The punishment is " non > > > > entitlement of human life for eons and eons " You wasted the > > > earlier > > > > life given to you. As simple as that. > > > > > > > > Vyas, N B > > > > ---------------------------- -- > -- > > - > > > > Hare Krishna. > > > > I think that the right thing would be to stay alive until you > > die > > > > either by an accident > > > > or naturally, EVEN THOUGH you are in a vegetative state, > because > > > > that way you'd be paying your karma, most probably a huge one!! > > > > Kind regards. > > > > > > > > Daniel Tkach > > > > ---------------------------- -- > -- > > - > > > > Dear Sadaks, > > > > > > > > Why speak of Suicide when we are alive ? that is how to live > > > > peacefully and happily is what one needs to understand > > > > Thank you and best regards, > > > > > > > > Gokul Mehta > > > > ---------------------------- -- > -- > > -- > > > > , " sadhak_insight " > > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Dear Sadaks, > > > > > > > > > > Suicide is ones option to terminate body from functioning. > Per > > > my > > > > > understanding, the soul after suicide remains in space until > > the > > > > > time originaly alotted to a one on the 15th day of that baby > > in > > > > > womb. The body and the soul with 5 kosas (5 layers of auras) > > > comes > > > > > to this earth with package of destiny which is based on it` > s > > > > > previous birth account of vasanas, karmas etc. > > > > > > > > > > As I understand, this soul hanging in space suffers worse > than > > > it > > > > > was with body. The soul always carries along with it the > kosas > > > > which > > > > > has recorded it`s vasanas (impressions in the mind), acts, > etc > > > > > whether one dies naturally or suicide. The vasanas > > (impressions > > > of > > > > > the mind, desires, fancy imaginations, passioj) can be > > satisfied > > > > > only with the equipment - body. The soul, now without body > > gets > > > > > frustrated, being unable to satisfy it`s desires. > > > > > > > > > > Adi Sankara left his body and entered into a kings body for > > few > > > > days > > > > > to gain certain knowledge. The soul can leave the body by > yoga > > > > > siddhi and reenter. > > > > > > > > > > By suicide one terminates the body before time span given to > > it. > > > > It > > > > > is my understanding that the soul neither gets fresh body or > > > goes > > > > to > > > > > higher level, rather it suffers until life span given to it. > > So > > > it > > > > > is sinful to not do the karmas that was to one's account. > > Such > > > a > > > > > soul gets handicapped body after it`s life span ( with body > > and > > > > time > > > > > without body). > > > > > > > > > > B.Sathyanarayan > > > > > -------------------------- -- > -- > > > > > Dear Sadhakas, We are all mentally committing suicide by not > > > > > following the tenets of Vedas, Upanishads etc., hurting > other > > > > > people's feelings for our own physical betterment. Physical > > > > suicide > > > > > is also on account of " Prarabdha Karma " , if one believes in > > the > > > > > same. About this, much has been said in Gita. > > > > > G.Vaidyanathan > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------- -- > -- > > > > > Dear all, > > > > > > > > > > In democracy, suicide is permitted by euthanasia and > > legislation > > > > in > > > > > EXTREME cases of body in absolutely unbearable condition. At > > > > times, > > > > > suicide is assisted by husband, wife or relative ot of sheer > > > pity > > > > > and terminate suffering, or vegetative condition from > > > paraplagia, > > > > > where only moving part of person is his eyelids, being > > paralysed > > > > > from neck downwards. > > > > > > > > > > At times sick people have travelled to other countries to > get > > > > > assisted suicide. Dr.Kevrokian also known as Dr. Death had > > > number > > > > of > > > > > clients, before he wasd stopped. > > > > > > > > > > Ramesh Jhalla > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------- -- > -- > > > > > , " sadhak_insight " > > > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Sadhakas, Namaste! > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't know what Gita has said on this one, but some of > us > > > will > > > > > > know it and answer. > > > > > > > > > > > > my understanding is that it is our innate/intrinsic nature > > to > > > > > exist > > > > > > and continue living in any condition. There are many > proofs > > of > > > > > this > > > > > > all around us when we see even terminally ill people would > > > like > > > > to > > > > > > survive. It is just a natural instinct built in by God, > the > > > > > > Intelligence itself! Suicide is thus, an unnatural act > > > > originating > > > > > > from dispairs, acute depression, or all such imaginations > or > > > > ideas > > > > > > breeding fear in one! > > > > > > > > > > > > To end the body by suicide is an act of Ego, who wants to > > > escape > > > > > > from responsibility causing pains to those loved ones left > > > > behind. > > > > > > Such a person only thinks of himself/herself and the pains > > > > he/she > > > > > > cannot endure, without thinking others who might be > his/her > > > > > > dependents. This is acting very veryselfishly. > > > > > > > > > > > > Suicide is also a missed opportunity to hope for the best > > and > > > > > > realize Truth which has been discovered by some while > facing > > > > such > > > > > > acute crisis! If one has complete trust in God and thereby > > in > > > > > > oneself, one cannot commit such an act. One goes on living > > > > inspite > > > > > > of problems! > > > > > > > > > > > > A man of wisdom will never commit suicide. Such a person > > would > > > > > > always know that to end the suffering, Life is a better > > > > > alternative > > > > > > to suicide. > > > > > > > > > > > > Namaskaras... Pratap > > > > > > (Pratap Bhatt) > > > > > > ------------------------ -- > -- > > -- > > > -- > > > > > > This is my humble opinion. In Gita, it is not explicitly > > > > > > mentioned 'not to commit suicide' but eloborates on the > > > concept > > > > of > > > > > > death in second chapter when Arjuna is wrried about > killing > > > his > > > > > own > > > > > > relatives. Gita states that death can be considered > > similarly > > > > as : > > > > > > as the soul taking different births and going thro the > cycle > > > of > > > > > life > > > > > > and death similar to a person shunning the old clothes and > > > > wearing > > > > > > the new ones. There is no death for soul but states abour > > > death > > > > of > > > > > > body only, which comes from earth and becomes one with > earth > > > as > > > > > the > > > > > > soul takes a different journey in different body. > > > > > > > > > > > > Also, Gita talks about karma yoga (concept of fulfilling > > your > > > > > > duties :whatever it may be by choice or circumstances and > > > > whatever > > > > > > you think ur duty is at that time without > thinking/expecting > > > > > fruits > > > > > > for any actions at all.). > > > > > > > > > > > > If one understand this in deep, he/she also understands > that > > > > there > > > > > > is no worry in life about anything since whatever it is, > you > > > can > > > > > > just offer /surrender that complete activity onto that > > > Supreme. > > > > If > > > > > > one is able to surrender to that God, he is free of > > > > > > worries/stress/depression /etc and then one will will be > > able > > > to > > > > > > understand that there is no need to commit suicide at all. > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Bharathi > > > > > > ------------------------ -- > -- > > -- > > > > > > We all are commiting suicide everday. To jump before > train, > > or > > > > > fast > > > > > > unto death is conventional definition but if one is > drinking > > > > > > alcohol, eating tobacco or living a diseased life style, > > these > > > > are > > > > > > all known and voluntary action of self-destruction. > > > > > > > > > > > > Gita only says about life and death as manifestation of > > > certain > > > > > > appearance as per our true nature (svabhaav). Actually, > the > > > > real > > > > > > person does not die and comes back again to know the > purpose > > > of > > > > > life > > > > > > rather than rejecting it. > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > K G > > > > > > (Krishna Gopal) > > > > > > ------------------------ -- > -- > > -- > > > -- > > > > > > Thank you for your duty, be blessed by all Gods, that they > > > fill > > > > > your > > > > > > heart with love and trust in the power of Shiva . > > > > > > > > > > > > please if possible, send me more about this subject. I am > > fed > > > > up > > > > > > with my western woman hindu body. > > > > > > Very hard penance > > > > > > > > > > > > OM EIN KALINK CHAMUNDAYE VITCHE OM > > > > > > shiva shakti shanti > > > > > > > > > > > > shanti > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------ -- > -- > > -- > > > -- > > > > - > > > > > > , " sadhak_insight " > > > > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why one must not commit suicide ? > > > > > > > Is there anything written against suicide ? > > > > > > > Does Gita say anything about this ? Please elaborate > > > > > > > > > > > > > > pandek > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: > > > > > > > 1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify > their > > > > doubts > > > > > > > related to Gitaji shalokas. Therefore, responses which > > > further > > > > > > > clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be posted. > > > > > > > 2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other > > > scriptures > > > > to > > > > > > > substantiate your response. > > > > > > > 3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs > etc. > > to > > > > the > > > > > > > extent that they further help in understanding the Gita > > > > shlokas > > > > > > > 4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, > > > > respecting > > > > > > > sadhaka's time. > > > > > > > 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only. > > > > > > > 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or > other > > > > > > > organizations. > > > > > > > 7. Kindly do not include your personal information such > as > > > > phone > > > > > > > number, address etc. > > > > > > > 8. Please do not address the response to a particular > > > > individual > > > > > > > since the message is going to the entire group. > > > > > > > 9. Due to the large readership, all responses may not be > > > > posted. > > > > > > > 10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, > > if > > > > > > content > > > > > > > is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the > > group. > > > > > > > 11. Please respond taking into consideration the > novices, > > > > youth, > > > > > > > westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use > > to > > > > > > Sanskrit > > > > > > > words only, rather provide the English word with > Sanskrit > > > > > > bracketed > > > > > > > wherever possible. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > MODERATOR > > > > > > > Ram Ram > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 20, 2008 Report Share Posted June 20, 2008 Re Saadhak Jaisinghani " s response to Manjulaji What a fast conclusion ! Where is the question of Hindus? Gitaji is the world " s best holy book. Any one on this earth is entitled to live life as per Gitaji- irrespective of caste,creed,colour, country,culture 0r religion . In Gitaji it is no where written that it is applicable to only Hindus . Manjulaji also did not tell that Gitaji is only applicable to Hindus. What was the query and where we have reached? Whether according to Ashokji suicide is only the problem of Hindus? Whose problem is it- except that of the departed soul? Is that problem so grave that a conclusion of the type – " Why we should follow Bhagwad Gita " can be arrived at? Gitaji is heritage of Hindu Sanatan Dharma. It is the nectar of all Vedas and Upanishads. Ashokji should himself read that ! He should have " shraddha " (respectful belief) in Geetaji ,if he is so conscious about at least Hindus or if he is proud of being a Hindu! Leave aside " shraddha " at least he should read it, before making such an astonishing,hasty remark! If even by mistake he reads Gitaji or touches it even, he will have benefits in life. A lot of Saadhaks have responded to the query regarding suicide in a really earnest and sincere manner. Beautiful answers have been given to the query. What doubts you have now reg the suicide ? Is not that the primary object of this forum, or the primary duty of all participants? Who wrote that Gitaji " cannot provide answers to the social and political situations and problems of all types " ? Certainly Manjulaji did not write that. She simply said the type of examples given by you ( country " s secrets, abduction, rape, saving the king in battlefield etc) are socio political situations not directly addressed ! For whatever reasons you commit suicide it is bad! She also said that no where in Gitaji it is said that suicide is OK! Had it been a great act , would not it have been listed in the first three verses of Chapter 16 ! And you have arrived at such conclusions!! We must treat this forum with the minimum decorum and maturity. This column is read by millions of people across the globe. Let us impart this column a respect. Vyas, N.B. , " sadhak_insight " <sadhak_insight wrote: > > shree hari > Ram Ram > > In many lectures when asked about suicide, Swamiji emphasized the rarity of receiving a human birth. It is only in this form of birth that God Realization is possible, freeing this embodied soul once and for all from the cycle of birth and death. There is 8.4 millions different life forms, but only by His grace we have in the middle received this human body and birth. With this human body, many amazing things are possible. We can become eternally free of all sorrows. Out of God's grace and compassion He has given us this human birth, then do you believe His grace will be of no avail? Does it make any sense to not eat food after everything has been prepared for us, placed on a silver plate and served to us ? His grace can never go to waste. > > Yes! God has given man the freedom. With this freedom, man has the > choice of utilizing this freedom to attain salvation. On the other hand, man has the choice of mis-utilizing and going into the vicious cycle of 8.4 million different forms of births, or going to hell. Now ! Does is make any sense to commit suicide and get trapped into another life form and not know when we will have the opportunity again to get out of that cycle? Most importantly, we have no such rights to destroy that which does not belong to us ! > > In reality, this freedom has been provided to man to uplift himself and only to attain salvation and not for misusing it. > > Meera Das > Ram Ram > -------------------------------- > > Hello everyone, I saw the below question in the email thread.. : > > > You have clearly indicated that the Bhagwad Gita cannot > > provide answers to the social and political situations and > > problems of all times. Why should we follow the Bhagwad > > Gita if it cannot solve the problems of Hindus? > > Ashok T. Jaisinghani. > > This is my humble opinion regarding the above question. Please do > not come to conclusion about what others say whether its mentioned > in Bhagavadgita or not...please try to understand the gist of > Bhagavdgita by your own self and your own understanding which will > open the doors to new perspective. Some questions are very difficult > to answer 'yes' or 'no' with respect to..whether Bhagavad Gita > covers certain subject or not...Bhagavd Gita is not like any other > subject..(any scriptures for that matter) because the mind is a > mysterious thing and hence these teaching once you go through step > by step understanding what it means to you will be the great first > step. Again, after reading them..it may be better idea not to think > why others are not going in the right path or not..its only to > yourself..these teachings are all for only oneself and once you try > to practice whatever you feel right in your heart..then you can feel > the peace will be in ur heart irrespective of whatever that comes > your way. this is my humble opinion again. > Regards, > Bharathi > - > Nowadays, nobody shouldd commit suicide because in the pretext of > that, a lot of suicide bombers by their agenda of 'attaining > martyrdom', have threatened global peace. This has also led to the > abuse of a sacred religious ideal namely dying for the nobility, for > certain virtues, values, for saving mothers, children, the > motherland etc. All might die; but nobody has the right to kill > including himself or herself. > Dr Shastry > > - -- > , " sadhak_insight " > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > Why one must not commit suicide? Simply because as per Hinduism, it > > is against the very principle of nonviolence. The concept of > > nonviolence is not only applicable towards others but more so to > > oneself and perhaps to a much larger degree. A violence performed > > onto oneself is perhaps a bigger sin.. > > > > -Ravi Khattree > > -------------------------------- - > > Hinsa or violence is undesirable whether to own self or to others. > > This (hinsa, violence) is violation of the Dharma (self nature in > > free and independent state). TAPASYA is enduring the nature > without > > recognizing its adverse effect, and this then end up in TYAG > > (renunciation). TAPSYA is not suicide or killing but an experiment > > with truth as did Gandhi. Jain muni have similar penance. > > TYAG (sacrifice) is a little different which also involves loss of > > life such as soldiers in war ready to kill and get killed for > > defense of a country, or ladies of Indian rulers with cool mind > > chosen to self immolate and defend the honour and deprivation from > > Khiljii. Similarly, sons of Sikh rulers also sacrificed for the > > traditional honour and self respect without surrendering to > Mughals. > > > > BALI : Sacrifice of life is also for gaining knowledge. In medical > > sciences, animals and human trials are conducted for new drug or > > medical procedure as a part of study. These sacrifices of human and > > animals are for gaining knowede so that cause of diseases of known, > > and solved. Bali is not for eating animals and making business of > > meat and animal products. > > > > COWARDICE this is hinsa or violation where death is not in best > > choice, but a desperation. Killing animals for food, leather etc.. > > and accidents, suicides, killed by diseases are examples of AKAL > > MRITYU and all are cowardice. > > Regards > > K G > > (Krishna Gopal) > > -------------------------------- -- > > > > May I suggest to the learned scholars that they may consider > supplementing with the consequences of " suicide " . (Binu Bhaya hoye > na priti...). What happens after suicide? Where does that soul go? > What yoni he gets in next birth. How he suffers in that next birth > etc.? > > Hopefully keeping in context with Gitaji. > > > > A.H.Dalmia. > > > > -------------------------------- -- > > , " sadhak_insight " > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > > > Why one must not suicide? > > > > > > Have we done anything to build our bodies the way they are? Have > we > > > done anything to run our thought process the way it is > functioning? Then what right do we have to terminate them? Who are enjoying the body-mind cluster blessed to us by God's grace? How can one who is enjoying the gifts of God be right in deciding to throw away the same? Who are we to throw our bodies? What rights do we have to judge upon the gifts graced on us? It is our duty to respect what we have received gracefully. Do we have any other means to appreciate what we are? The only path we have to seek ourselves is through the same body and mind we are blessed with. Therefore, it is our duty to serve our body-mind clusters to appreciate ourselves deeper and clearer. Our relation with our bodies and minds should be the foremost Upasana – worship with full awareness, commitment and reverence. Therefore, (1) we have no right to terminate our bodily existence; (2) it is our duty to serve the same to our best abilities; and (3) it is for our own upliftment we respect what we are blessed with. Living healthy – physically as well as mentally – is the fundamental need for spiritual progress. The root cause for all our miseries is our self-alienation – farther we are from our true selves, more miserable we will feel. Feeling miserable is the most fundamental sin of all. The very thought of suicide is the acute crystalization of all our miseries. It is our foremost duty to face our miseries and resolve their fundamental cause by getting closer to what we are rather than what we have or we have not. Therefore, it is our fundamental right as well as duty Adhikara means responsive authority and authoritative response) to seek ourselves to affect reduction of all our miseries categorically. Therefore, we must pause on our mundane suicidal life of ignoring ourselves, watch our ignorance and get closer to ourselves as we move along rather than deviating from ourselves in our actions, thoughts and experiences. Again, that is our right as well as duty. It is time we should claim our rights and execute our duties. Therefore, Utthishthata jagrata prapya varaannibodhata | Kshurasya dhara nishita duratyaya durgam pathastat kavayo vadante|| Wake up ! Get vigilent !! Approach The Right, Your Self !!! The path you tread upon in life is like a razor edge … in no time you would slip to the wrong ways, if you are not alert. Therefore … Be aware ! Be alert !! Be correct !!! Respects. Naga Narayana. Is there anything written against suicide ? Everything that is written in sanity is against suicide! The very life is designed against suicide!! Every gene in every cell of yours carries this message!!! Acknowledge the message. Understand the message. Experience the message. Receive the essence of wisdom from life. Respond to the life with wisdom. Resonate with the life as yourself. THAT IS JOY. There cannot be a room for any thoughts against the life in such JOY. Find IT. Seek IT. Be IT. This is my understanding I am blessed with from all our scriptures > > > as well as life. > > > > > > Respects. > > > > > > Naga Narayana. > > > ------------------------------ -- > > > Bhagwat Gita is not against killing or defending or resistance > > with > > > or without force but is against HINSA or Reaction. This means, > > life > > > and death in the form of killing others, or sacrifice (kurbaani) > > of > > > soldiers for saving the mother land in war for struggle for > > freedom > > > are AHINSA or Non Reaction. Arjun was explained this concept by > > Sri > > > Krishna that the act of war in a situation when laws and order > get > > > deteriorated is a duty (kartavya) for Chhatria and it is swabhaav > > of > > > Arjun that will respond it and not react it. Fire is duty bound > > to > > > burn and this is its swabhaav. Water has different swabhaav and > it > > > is bound to act as per it. So the purity of swabhaav is not > > reactive > > > but not delayed in responses, and accepts no restriction. > > > > > > Had Arjun not responded to call of war and surrendered meekly to > > bad > > > governance (Dus Shaasan) and bad authority (Dur Yodhan) and > > > Structure of Government serving them (Karna i.e., structure) > > those > > > born of insensitive law and order (blind Dhrat Rashtra i.e., on > > > which a nation i.e., Rashtra rests i.e., Dhrat), that would have > > > been a HINSA and cowerdice and life of Arjun falling from its > > > swabhaav. > > > > > > Suicide is escaping from ones own self, and this is failing > > attempt > > > of getting out of situation. The impression will be carried over > > to > > > next life or further future, and till the time one understands > own > > > swabhaav and responds it with its ability (purusharth). Gandhi > was > > > fasting very offten and gets close to death, Jain muni also > follow > > > similar thing. But this is TAPASYA or testing of endurance to > > > observe nature from a distance. These are not suicide or > > cowardice. > > > > > > > > > Bhagwat Gita, in fact, begins with > > > Kaparnya Dosho Pahatah Swabhaavah > > > Prkshyami Twam Dharma Sammoodh Chetah > > > > > > That means, Arjun asking (pakshyami) Sri Krishna what to do when > > the > > > swabhaav is beginning to fall (pahatah), and he gets diseased > > > (dosho) with cowerdice of inaction (kaparnya). > > > > > > best regards > > > K G(Krishna Gopal) > > > -------------------------------- Loving Divine, Pranam. To best of my knowledge, the message in Gitaji is - it is ok to die fighting with the enemy but killing oneself is an 'upmrityu'. To do whatever it takes to protect oneself or the nation is not considered suicide, it is called scacrifying for greater interest. No, I have NOT clearly indicated that 'the Bhagwad Gita cannot provide answers to the social and political situations and problems of all times. Unfortunately, people want to talk about BG but don't want to implement any of it's teachings. If men, would curtail their desires to control the world, greed for material pleasure, his heightened ego, his indulgence in immoral sense pleasure, his tendencies to discriminate others and treat them as low life, and his delusional living, etc. as discussed in BG and other scriptures, the world would be lot better - women & other men, will not have to suffer...! Honestly who wants to follow the path shown by Lord? Everyone wants name & fame, earn more money, still others ideas and present them as their own to build their career, who really wants God? When the intentions are delusional, how to expect that they will understand God's message in BG? I had mentioned it before also that social transformation is possible only by individual transformation but who really wants to change? Please clarify you real issue! it sure will help. humble regards, always at Thy Divine Feet Manjula Patel -------------------------------- > > > You have clearly indicated that the Bhagwad Gita cannot > > > provide answers to the social and political situations and > > > problems of all times. Why should we follow the Bhagwad > > > Gita if it cannot solve the problems of Hindus? > > > Ashok T. Jaisinghani. > > > > > > ------------------------------ -- > - Loving Divine. Pranam. The following are all based on social & political situations and are not addressed in Bhagawat Gita. I have not run across any thing in Bhagawat Gita indicating committing suicide is ok. humble regards, always at Thy Holy Feet Manjula Patel ------------------------------- > > > What about killing one's self to escape rape, abduction, to save > > > life of king or leader in a battlefield, to escape from enemies > > that > > > may lead to torture and revealing Country's secrets ? > > > > > > Ashok T. Jaisinghani > > > ------------------------------ -- > > > , " sadhak_insight " > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Pranam to all Sadhakas; > > > > > > > > Did Arjuna say that he wanted to commit suicide?? Where?? and > > When? > > > > > > > > In (1/46) Arjuna is ready to be killed (when unarmed) by the > > > > Kuravas. This is not suicide, though it may be suicidal in the > > > end. > > > > > > > > In fact no Kshatriya worth his salt will think of suicide > > because > > > > nothing is more dear to him than a Dharma Yuddha which opens > > the > > > > gates of Heaven for him (2/31) Also a Kshtriya knows that if > > > killed > > > > during a Dharma Yuddha, he will go straight to Heaven and if he > > > > survives he will enjoy life tothe fullest (2/37). > > > > > > > > Namaskar to all. > > > > > > > > Suhas Gogate > > > > ---------------------------- -- > -- > > -- > > > > I feel Brother B.Sathyanarayan has put it in a very beautiful > > way. > > > I > > > > too strongly think the same. Suicide is just trying to avoid > > one's > > > > karma, which is impossible, and has to be completed anyways! > > > > > > > > > > > > Love and Light > > > > Jacob > > > > ---------------------------- -- > -- > > -- > > > > pranam > > > > > > > > what about the reverse of this. one kills others if they dont > > > follow > > > > his path. like terrorists kill lots when they dont follow their > > > suit. > > > > > > > > Pl. elaborate on geetaji. > > > > > > > > thanx > > > > > > > > raja gurdasani > > > > > > > > ---------------------------- -- > -- > > -- > > > - > > > > , " sadhak_insight " > > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Loving Divine, > > > > > Pranam. > > > > > Yes, Gitaji has mentioned about Arjun ready to commit suicide > > in > > > > BG > > > > > 1:46. He was so dejected with the situation, he said to > > Krishna > > > > > that it is better for me not to carry weapon or fight, rather > > > let > > > > > all equipped Kauravs kill me. The last sloka BG 1.47 says > > that > > > > > after saying this Arjuna dropped his bow-arrows & sat down at > > > the > > > > > back seat of the chariott. Arjuna knew committing suicide is > > a > > > > sin > > > > > so he finds an alternate way to get killed! Looking at his > > > > > condition, Lord calls him cowered (BG 2:3). In BG 2:11, > > Krishna > > > > > even becomes sarcastic. Arjuna continues with his depressive > > > > > attitude & not wanting to face the situation (BG 2:9). Lord > > > > starts > > > > > giving him advise why he should not kill himself or be upset > > > over > > > > > other bodies being killed BG 2:12. > > > > > > > > > > Also Krishna talks about what happens when people die in > later > > > > > chapters. When people die with unfulfilled desires, they > have > > > to > > > > be > > > > > reborn. Nature wants them to learn the life lesson but by > > > running > > > > > away from it they are bound to face the situation over and > > over > > > > > again until they learn and transcend themselves. So it is > not > > > > good > > > > > to commit suicide. > > > > > > > > > > I would suggest reading BG Chapter 1 & 2 thoroughly for > better > > > > > understanding. > > > > > > > > > > humble regards, > > > > > always at Thy Holy Feet > > > > > > > > > > Manjula Patel > > > > > -------------------------- -- > -- > > -- > > > -- > > > > > First let us understand that so called life and death _ how > > > > > significant they are from the perspective of " SELF " and that > > > > > of " GOD " . The correct answer is as insignificant as is our > > > change > > > > of > > > > > cloths_ Gita is relevant here.There are only three elements > > > > existing > > > > > in this universe. JEEVA (Self), JAGDISH(God) and JAGAT (World > > > > > including your body, mind, intellect and ego). Just as it is > > > > > insignificant from Jeeva (Self) and Jagdish (God's) point of > > > > view , > > > > > from Jagat (World's) point of view also they are not at all > of > > > any > > > > > importance because the World changes, changes and does > nothing > > > > > except changes. A change for life is death and a change for > > > death > > > > is > > > > > life. > > > > > > > > > > Now come to " Suicide " . It is a running away from the reality. > > > > While > > > > > Gita doesnot specifically refer about suicide but it is > > > abundantly > > > > > clear that it is an act of total stupidity and cowardice. > > Other > > > > > Hindu Scriptures condemn this act in no uncertain terms. > > Where > > > in > > > > > fact is the need ever to get so upset? The punishment is " non > > > > > entitlement of human life for eons and eons " You wasted the > > > > earlier > > > > > life given to you. As simple as that. > > > > > > > > > > Vyas, N B > > > > > -------------------------- -- > -- > > -- > > > - > > > > > Hare Krishna. > > > > > I think that the right thing would be to stay alive until you > > > die > > > > > either by an accident > > > > > or naturally, EVEN THOUGH you are in a vegetative state, > > because > > > > > that way you'd be paying your karma, most probably a huge > one!! > > > > > Kind regards. > > > > > > > > > > Daniel Tkach > > > > > -------------------------- -- > -- > > -- > > > - > > > > > Dear Sadaks, > > > > > > > > > > Why speak of Suicide when we are alive ? that is how to live > > > > > peacefully and happily is what one needs to understand > > > > > Thank you and best regards, > > > > > > > > > > Gokul Mehta > > > > > -------------------------- -- > -- > > -- > > > -- > > > > > , " sadhak_insight " > > > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Sadaks, > > > > > > > > > > > > Suicide is ones option to terminate body from functioning. > > Per > > > > my > > > > > > understanding, the soul after suicide remains in space > until > > > the > > > > > > time originaly alotted to a one on the 15th day of that > baby > > > in > > > > > > womb. The body and the soul with 5 kosas (5 layers of > auras) > > > > comes > > > > > > to this earth with package of destiny which is based on it` > > s > > > > > > previous birth account of vasanas, karmas etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > As I understand, this soul hanging in space suffers worse > > than > > > > it > > > > > > was with body. The soul always carries along with it the > > kosas > > > > > which > > > > > > has recorded it`s vasanas (impressions in the mind), acts, > > etc > > > > > > whether one dies naturally or suicide. The vasanas > > > (impressions > > > > of > > > > > > the mind, desires, fancy imaginations, passioj) can be > > > satisfied > > > > > > only with the equipment - body. The soul, now without body > > > gets > > > > > > frustrated, being unable to satisfy it`s desires. > > > > > > > > > > > > Adi Sankara left his body and entered into a kings body for > > > few > > > > > days > > > > > > to gain certain knowledge. The soul can leave the body by > > yoga > > > > > > siddhi and reenter. > > > > > > > > > > > > By suicide one terminates the body before time span given > to > > > it. > > > > > It > > > > > > is my understanding that the soul neither gets fresh body > or > > > > goes > > > > > to > > > > > > higher level, rather it suffers until life span given to > it. > > > So > > > > it > > > > > > is sinful to not do the karmas that was to one's account. > > > Such > > > > a > > > > > > soul gets handicapped body after it`s life span ( with body > > > and > > > > > time > > > > > > without body). > > > > > > > > > > > > B.Sathyanarayan > > > > > > ------------------------ -- > -- > > -- > > > > > > Dear Sadhakas, We are all mentally committing suicide by > not > > > > > > following the tenets of Vedas, Upanishads etc., hurting > > other > > > > > > people's feelings for our own physical betterment. > Physical > > > > > suicide > > > > > > is also on account of " Prarabdha Karma " , if one believes in > > > the > > > > > > same. About this, much has been said in Gita. > > > > > > G.Vaidyanathan > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------ -- > -- > > -- > > > > > > Dear all, > > > > > > > > > > > > In democracy, suicide is permitted by euthanasia and > > > legislation > > > > > in > > > > > > EXTREME cases of body in absolutely unbearable condition. > At > > > > > times, > > > > > > suicide is assisted by husband, wife or relative ot of > sheer > > > > pity > > > > > > and terminate suffering, or vegetative condition from > > > > paraplagia, > > > > > > where only moving part of person is his eyelids, being > > > paralysed > > > > > > from neck downwards. > > > > > > > > > > > > At times sick people have travelled to other countries to > > get > > > > > > assisted suicide. Dr.Kevrokian also known as Dr. Death had > > > > number > > > > > of > > > > > > clients, before he wasd stopped. > > > > > > > > > > > > Ramesh Jhalla > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------ -- > -- > > -- > > > > > > , " sadhak_insight " > > > > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Sadhakas, Namaste! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't know what Gita has said on this one, but some of > > us > > > > will > > > > > > > know it and answer. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > my understanding is that it is our innate/intrinsic > nature > > > to > > > > > > exist > > > > > > > and continue living in any condition. There are many > > proofs > > > of > > > > > > this > > > > > > > all around us when we see even terminally ill people > would > > > > like > > > > > to > > > > > > > survive. It is just a natural instinct built in by God, > > the > > > > > > > Intelligence itself! Suicide is thus, an unnatural act > > > > > originating > > > > > > > from dispairs, acute depression, or all such imaginations > > or > > > > > ideas > > > > > > > breeding fear in one! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To end the body by suicide is an act of Ego, who wants to > > > > escape > > > > > > > from responsibility causing pains to those loved ones > left > > > > > behind. > > > > > > > Such a person only thinks of himself/herself and the > pains > > > > > he/she > > > > > > > cannot endure, without thinking others who might be > > his/her > > > > > > > dependents. This is acting very veryselfishly. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Suicide is also a missed opportunity to hope for the best > > > and > > > > > > > realize Truth which has been discovered by some while > > facing > > > > > such > > > > > > > acute crisis! If one has complete trust in God and > thereby > > > in > > > > > > > oneself, one cannot commit such an act. One goes on > living > > > > > inspite > > > > > > > of problems! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A man of wisdom will never commit suicide. Such a person > > > would > > > > > > > always know that to end the suffering, Life is a better > > > > > > alternative > > > > > > > to suicide. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Namaskaras... Pratap > > > > > > > (Pratap Bhatt) > > > > > > > ---------------------- -- > -- > > -- > > > -- > > > > -- > > > > > > > This is my humble opinion. In Gita, it is not explicitly > > > > > > > mentioned 'not to commit suicide' but eloborates on the > > > > concept > > > > > of > > > > > > > death in second chapter when Arjuna is wrried about > > killing > > > > his > > > > > > own > > > > > > > relatives. Gita states that death can be considered > > > similarly > > > > > as : > > > > > > > as the soul taking different births and going thro the > > cycle > > > > of > > > > > > life > > > > > > > and death similar to a person shunning the old clothes > and > > > > > wearing > > > > > > > the new ones. There is no death for soul but states abour > > > > death > > > > > of > > > > > > > body only, which comes from earth and becomes one with > > earth > > > > as > > > > > > the > > > > > > > soul takes a different journey in different body. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also, Gita talks about karma yoga (concept of fulfilling > > > your > > > > > > > duties :whatever it may be by choice or circumstances and > > > > > whatever > > > > > > > you think ur duty is at that time without > > thinking/expecting > > > > > > fruits > > > > > > > for any actions at all.). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If one understand this in deep, he/she also understands > > that > > > > > there > > > > > > > is no worry in life about anything since whatever it is, > > you > > > > can > > > > > > > just offer /surrender that complete activity onto that > > > > Supreme. > > > > > If > > > > > > > one is able to surrender to that God, he is free of > > > > > > > worries/stress/depression /etc and then one will will be > > > able > > > > to > > > > > > > understand that there is no need to commit suicide at > all. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > Bharathi > > > > > > > ---------------------- -- > -- > > -- > > > -- > > > > > > > We all are commiting suicide everday. To jump before > > train, > > > or > > > > > > fast > > > > > > > unto death is conventional definition but if one is > > drinking > > > > > > > alcohol, eating tobacco or living a diseased life style, > > > these > > > > > are > > > > > > > all known and voluntary action of self-destruction. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Gita only says about life and death as manifestation of > > > > certain > > > > > > > appearance as per our true nature (svabhaav). Actually, > > the > > > > > real > > > > > > > person does not die and comes back again to know the > > purpose > > > > of > > > > > > life > > > > > > > rather than rejecting it. > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > > K G > > > > > > > (Krishna Gopal) > > > > > > > ---------------------- -- > -- > > -- > > > -- > > > > -- > > > > > > > Thank you for your duty, be blessed by all Gods, that > they > > > > fill > > > > > > your > > > > > > > heart with love and trust in the power of Shiva . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > please if possible, send me more about this subject. I > am > > > fed > > > > > up > > > > > > > with my western woman hindu body. > > > > > > > Very hard penance > > > > > > > > > > > > > > OM EIN KALINK CHAMUNDAYE VITCHE OM > > > > > > > shiva shakti shanti > > > > > > > > > > > > > > shanti > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------- -- > -- > > -- > > > -- > > > > -- > > > > > - > > > > > > > , " sadhak_insight " > > > > > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why one must not commit suicide ? > > > > > > > > Is there anything written against suicide ? > > > > > > > > Does Gita say anything about this ? Please elaborate > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > pandek > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: > > > > > > > > 1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify > > their > > > > > doubts > > > > > > > > related to Gitaji shalokas. Therefore, responses which > > > > further > > > > > > > > clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be > posted. > > > > > > > > 2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other > > > > scriptures > > > > > to > > > > > > > > substantiate your response. > > > > > > > > 3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs > > etc. > > > to > > > > > the > > > > > > > > extent that they further help in understanding the Gita > > > > > shlokas > > > > > > > > 4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, > > > > > respecting > > > > > > > > sadhaka's time. > > > > > > > > 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand > only. > > > > > > > > 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or > > other > > > > > > > > organizations. > > > > > > > > 7. Kindly do not include your personal information such > > as > > > > > phone > > > > > > > > number, address etc. > > > > > > > > 8. Please do not address the response to a particular > > > > > individual > > > > > > > > since the message is going to the entire group. > > > > > > > > 9. Due to the large readership, all responses may not > be > > > > > posted. > > > > > > > > 10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the > posting, > > > if > > > > > > > content > > > > > > > > is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the > > > group. > > > > > > > > 11. Please respond taking into consideration the > > novices, > > > > > youth, > > > > > > > > westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the > use > > > to > > > > > > > Sanskrit > > > > > > > > words only, rather provide the English word with > > Sanskrit > > > > > > > bracketed > > > > > > > > wherever possible. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > MODERATOR > > > > > > > > Ram Ram > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 24, 2008 Report Share Posted October 24, 2008 Shree Hari Ram Ram Due to request by Sadhak, this topic is being re-introduced. From Gita Talk Moderator Ram Ram ------------------------------- QUESTION: Why one must not commit suicide ? Is there anything written against suicide ? Does Gita say anything about this ? Please elaborate pandek -Shree Hari- Dear sadhaks, Suicide is such a terrible thing that it does need attention. I have been in situations where people were close to suicide, two told me out rite, (what a burden to have someone place their lives in ones hands as it were). The other situation was far more imminent, I will keep it brief: A colleague who was working for me, I noticed was getting more and more withdrawn. Finally he was crouched on the floor, definitely putting his life at risk. My superiors had backed off, I took on the task. He had an answer to all my logic, I was concerned for his and my own well-being. I knew that this situation was really bad. Suddenly I looked into his eyes and said " You are precious! " , and quietly said " We all are precious " . His eyes filled with tears the crisis was over. So I will repeat to all who read this, We are all precious ! So if one can save a soul from all the terrors that can await him/her as a result of suicide. Then it is a precious gift for both of you. So never, never hesitate, to help such a soul ! Divine love will guide you. That which I have written above is not about me, it's about divine love. I think these sad souls I mentioned had fallen into a trap, something to do with ego born of ignorance. Gitaji: 4: 22. Content with what comes to him without effort, free from the pairs of opposites and envy, even-minded in success and failure, Though acting, he is not bound. 4: 42. Therefore, with the sword of knowledge (of the Self) cut asunder the doubt of the self born of ignorance, residing in your heart, and take refuge in Yoga; arise, Arjuna! With Respect and Divine Love, Mike Keenor Re Saadhak Jaisinghani " s response to Manjulaji What a fast conclusion ! Where is the question of Hindus? Gitaji is the world " s best holy book. Any one on this earth is entitled to live life as per Gitaji- irrespective of caste,creed,colour, country,culture 0r religion . In Gitaji it is no where written that it is applicable to only Hindus . Manjulaji also did not tell that Gitaji is only applicable to Hindus. What was the query and where we have reached? Whether according to Ashokji suicide is only the problem of Hindus? Whose problem is it- except that of the departed soul? Is that problem so grave that a conclusion of the type – " Why we should follow Bhagwad Gita " can be arrived at? Gitaji is heritage of Hindu Sanatan Dharma. It is the nectar of all Vedas and Upanishads. Ashokji should himself read that ! He should have " shraddha " (respectful belief) in Geetaji ,if he is so conscious about at least Hindus or if he is proud of being a Hindu! Leave aside " shraddha " at least he should read it, before making such an astonishing,hasty remark! If even by mistake he reads Gitaji or touches it even, he will have benefits in life. A lot of Saadhaks have responded to the query regarding suicide in a really earnest and sincere manner. Beautiful answers have been given to the query. What doubts you have now reg the suicide ? Is not that the primary object of this forum, or the primary duty of all participants? Who wrote that Gitaji " cannot provide answers to the social and political situations and problems of all types " ? Certainly Manjulaji did not write that. She simply said the type of examples given by you ( country " s secrets, abduction, rape, saving the king in battlefield etc) are socio political situations not directly addressed ! For whatever reasons you commit suicide it is bad! She also said that no where in Gitaji it is said that suicide is OK! Had it been a great act , would not it have been listed in the first three verses of Chapter 16 ! And you have arrived at such conclusions!! We must treat this forum with the minimum decorum and maturity. This column is read by millions of people across the globe. Let us impart this column a respect. Vyas, N.B. shree hari Ram Ram In many lectures when asked about suicide, Swamiji emphasized the rarity of receiving a human birth. It is only in this form of birth that God Realization is possible, freeing this embodied soul once and for all from the cycle of birth and death. There is 8.4 millions different life forms, but only by His grace we have in the middle received this human body and birth. With this human body, many amazing things are possible. We can become eternally free of all sorrows. Out of God's grace and compassion He has given us this human birth, then do you believe His grace will be of no avail? Does it make any sense to not eat food after everything has been prepared for us, placed on a silver plate and served to us ? His grace can never go to waste. > > Yes! God has given man the freedom. With this freedom, man has the > choice of utilizing this freedom to attain salvation. On the other hand, man has the choice of mis-utilizing and going into the vicious cycle of 8.4 million different forms of births, or going to hell. Now ! Does is make any sense to commit suicide and get trapped into another life form and not know when we will have the opportunity again to get out of that cycle? Most importantly, we have no such rights to destroy that which does not belong to us ! In reality, this freedom has been provided to man to uplift himself and only to attain salvation and not for misusing it. Meera Das Ram Ram > -------------------------------- Hello everyone, I saw the below question in the email thread.. : You have clearly indicated that the Bhagwad Gita cannot provide answers to the social and political situations and problems of all times. Why should we follow the Bhagwad Gita if it cannot solve the problems of Hindus? Ashok T. Jaisinghani. ---------------------------- This is my humble opinion regarding the above question. Please do not come to conclusion about what others say whether its mentioned in Bhagavadgita or not...please try to understand the gist of Bhagavdgita by your own self and your own understanding which will open the doors to new perspective. Some questions are very difficult to answer 'yes' or 'no' with respect to..whether Bhagavad Gita covers certain subject or not...Bhagavd Gita is not like any other subject..(any scriptures for that matter) because the mind is a mysterious thing and hence these teaching once you go through step by step understanding what it means to you will be the great first step. Again, after reading them..it may be better idea not to think why others are not going in the right path or not..its only to yourself..these teachings are all for only oneself and once you try to practice whatever you feel right in your heart..then you can feel the peace will be in ur heart irrespective of whatever that comes your way. this is my humble opinion again. Regards, Bharathi > - Nowadays, nobody shouldd commit suicide because in the pretext of that, a lot of suicide bombers by their agenda of 'attaining martyrdom', have threatened global peace. This has also led to the abuse of a sacred religious ideal namely dying for the nobility, for certain virtues, values, for saving mothers, children, the motherland etc. All might die; but nobody has the right to kill including himself or herself. Dr Shastry - Why one must not commit suicide? Simply because as per Hinduism, it is against the very principle of nonviolence. The concept of nonviolence is not only applicable towards others but more so to oneself and perhaps to a much larger degree. A violence performed onto oneself is perhaps a bigger sin.. -Ravi Khattree -------------------------------- Hinsa or violence is undesirable whether to own self or to others. This (hinsa, violence) is violation of the Dharma (self nature in free and independent state). TAPASYA is enduring the nature without recognizing its adverse effect, and this then end up in TYAG (renunciation). TAPSYA is not suicide or killing but an experiment with truth as did Gandhi. Jain muni have similar penance. TYAG (sacrifice) is a little different which also involves loss of life such as soldiers in war ready to kill and get killed for defense of a country, or ladies of Indian rulers with cool mind chosen to self immolate and defend the honour and deprivation from Khiljii. Similarly, sons of Sikh rulers also sacrificed for the traditional honour and self respect without surrendering to Mughals. BALI : Sacrifice of life is also for gaining knowledge. In medical > > sciences, animals and human trials are conducted for new drug or > > medical procedure as a part of study. These sacrifices of human and > > animals are for gaining knowede so that cause of diseases of known, > > and solved. Bali is not for eating animals and making business of > > meat and animal products. > > > > COWARDICE this is hinsa or violation where death is not in best > > choice, but a desperation. Killing animals for food, leather etc.. > > and accidents, suicides, killed by diseases are examples of AKAL > > MRITYU and all are cowardice. > > Regards > > K G > > (Krishna Gopal) > > -------------------------------- -- > > > > May I suggest to the learned scholars that they may consider > supplementing with the consequences of " suicide " . (Binu Bhaya hoye > na priti...). What happens after suicide? Where does that soul go? > What yoni he gets in next birth. How he suffers in that next birth > etc.? > > Hopefully keeping in context with Gitaji. > > > > A.H.Dalmia. > > > > -------------------------------- Why one must not suicide? Have we done anything to build our bodies the way they are? Have we done anything to run our thought process the way it is functioning? Then what right do we have to terminate them? Who are enjoying the body-mind cluster blessed to us by God's grace? How can one who is enjoying the gifts of God be right in deciding to throw away the same? Who are we to throw our bodies? What rights do we have to judge upon the gifts graced on us? It is our duty to respect what we have received gracefully. Do we have any other means to appreciate what we are? The only path we have to seek ourselves is through the same body and mind we are blessed with. Therefore, it is our duty to serve our body-mind clusters to appreciate ourselves deeper and clearer. Our relation with our bodies and minds should be the foremost Upasana – worship with full awareness, commitment and reverence. Therefore, (1) we have no right to terminate our bodily existence; (2) it is our duty to serve the same to our best abilities; and (3) it is for our own upliftment we respect what we are blessed with. Living healthy – physically as well as mentally – is the fundamental need for spiritual progress. The root cause for all our miseries is our self-alienation – farther we are from our true selves, more miserable we will feel. Feeling miserable is the most fundamental sin of all. The very thought of suicide is the acute crystalization of all our miseries. It is our foremost duty to face our miseries and resolve their fundamental cause by getting closer to what we are rather than what we have or we have not. Therefore, it is our fundamental right as well as duty Adhikara means responsive authority and authoritative response) to seek ourselves to affect reduction of all our miseries categorically. Therefore, we must pause on our mundane suicidal life of ignoring ourselves, watch our ignorance and get closer to ourselves as we move along rather than deviating from ourselves in our actions, thoughts and experiences. Again, that is our right as well as duty. It is time we should claim our rights and execute our duties. Therefore, Utthishthata jagrata prapya varaannibodhata | Kshurasya dhara nishita duratyaya durgam pathastat kavayo vadante|| Wake up ! Get vigilent !! Approach The Right, Your Self !!! The path you tread upon in life is like a razor edge … in no time you would slip to the wrong ways, if you are not alert. Therefore … Be aware ! Be alert !! Be correct !!! Respects. Naga Narayana. ------------------------- Is there anything written against suicide ? Everything that is written in sanity is against suicide! The very life is designed against suicide!! Every gene in every cell of yours carries this message!!! Acknowledge the message. Understand the message. Experience the message. Receive the essence of wisdom from life. Respond to the life with wisdom. Resonate with the life as yourself. THAT IS JOY. There cannot be a room for any thoughts against the life in such JOY. Find IT. Seek IT. Be IT. This is my understanding I am blessed with from all our scriptures as well as life. Respects. Naga Narayana. > > > ------------------------------ -- Bhagwat Gita is not against killing or defending or resistance with or without force but is against HINSA or Reaction. This means, life and death in the form of killing others, or sacrifice (kurbaani) of soldiers for saving the mother land in war for struggle for freedom are AHINSA or Non Reaction. Arjun was explained this concept by Sri Krishna that the act of war in a situation when laws and order get deteriorated is a duty (kartavya) for Chhatria and it is swabhaav of Arjun that will respond it and not react it. Fire is duty bound to burn and this is its swabhaav. Water has different swabhaav and it is bound to act as per it. So the purity of swabhaav is not reactive but not delayed in responses, and accepts no restriction. Had Arjun not responded to call of war and surrendered meekly to bad governance (Dus Shaasan) and bad authority (Dur Yodhan) and Structure of Government serving them (Karna i.e., structure) those born of insensitive law and order (blind Dhrat Rashtra i.e., on which a nation i.e., Rashtra rests i.e., Dhrat), that would have been a HINSA and cowerdice and life of Arjun falling from its swabhaav. Suicide is escaping from ones own self, and this is failing attempt of getting out of situation. The impression will be carried over to next life or further future, and till the time one understands own swabhaav and responds it with its ability (purusharth). Gandhi was fasting very often and gets close to death, Jain muni also follow similar thing. But this is TAPASYA or testing of endurance to observe nature from a distance. These are not suicide or cowardice. Bhagwat Gita, in fact, begins with Kaparnya Dosho Pahatah Swabhaavah Prkshyami Twam Dharma Sammoodh Chetah That means, Arjun asking (pakshyami) Sri Krishna what to do when the swabhaav is beginning to fall (pahatah), and he gets diseased (dosho) with cowerdice of inaction (kaparnya). best regards K G(Krishna Gopal) -------------------------------- Loving Divine, Pranam. To best of my knowledge, the message in Gitaji is - it is ok to die fighting with the enemy but killing oneself is an 'upmrityu'. To do whatever it takes to protect oneself or the nation is not considered suicide, it is called scacrifying for greater interest. No, I have NOT clearly indicated that 'the Bhagwad Gita cannot provide answers to the social and political situations and problems of all times. Unfortunately, people want to talk about BG but don't want to implement any of it's teachings. If men, would curtail their desires to control the world, greed for material pleasure, his heightened ego, his indulgence in immoral sense pleasure, his tendencies to discriminate others and treat them as low life, and his delusional living, etc. as discussed in BG and other scriptures, the world would be lot better - women & other men, will not have to suffer...! Honestly who wants to follow the path shown by Lord? Everyone wants name & fame, earn more money, still others ideas and present them as their own to build their career, who really wants God? When the intentions are delusional, how to expect that they will understand God's message in BG? I had mentioned it before also that social transformation is possible only by individual transformation but who really wants to change? Please clarify you real issue! it sure will help. humble regards, always at Thy Divine Feet Manjula Patel -------------------------------- > > > You have clearly indicated that the Bhagwad Gita cannot > > > provide answers to the social and political situations and > > > problems of all times. Why should we follow the Bhagwad > > > Gita if it cannot solve the problems of Hindus? > > > Ashok T. Jaisinghani. > > > > > > ------------------------------ -- > - Loving Divine. Pranam. The following are all based on social & political situations and are not addressed in Bhagawat Gita. I have not run across any thing in Bhagawat Gita indicating committing suicide is ok. humble regards, always at Thy Holy Feet Manjula Patel ------------------------------- > > > What about killing one's self to escape rape, abduction, to save > > > life of king or leader in a battlefield, to escape from enemies > > that > > > may lead to torture and revealing Country's secrets ? > > > > > > Ashok T. Jaisinghani Dear Sadhika, Pranaam. Committing suicide means ending your body. Whats the use of ending up something(body) which is going to end itself anyway ? Instead bear it and align yourself with the purpose of your existence. Gitaji says-bear pain and pleasure as you bear cold and hot weather. As you said- " I " am fed up with my ... " body " . This implies that you are already aware of the fact that " I " am not " my body " . Gitaji;1:18 Then who am I ? Gitaji Chapter 1, 2 will explain you. Please first find out WHO AM I ? You are already at the higher state of consciousness where you know that you are not the body, please meditate more and contemplate on " who am I " . As you go deeper you will know that you are not your mental, emotional assumptions, you are not what the other people think of you and you are not what you think you are.You are not the sufferings, you are not the pain your body and mind is going through, you are not that mental emotional role you are playing everyday. Then who are you ? Please find out, its important. Every shaloka of Gitaji is full of answers. Read, re-read, contemplate, meditate. I will suggest reading Eckhart Tolle's books - " Power of now " and " A new earth " . He was thinking of ending his life but ultimately he got realization out of that. with lots of love, a sadhika Sadhna Karigar ------------------------------- What is suicide? Is it terminating one's association with the body-mind cluster or terminating one's association with oneself? Isopanishad declares that it is the later who are the suiciders (aatmahanah) though we ignorantly are obsessed with the former. Bhagavad Gita – the essence of all Upanishads – certainly deals with both. 1. Suicide – termination of one's association with the body-mind cluster One's attempt for cessation from the body-mind cluster is condemned throughout the Bhagavad Gita. All our miseries are nothing but symptoms of our frustration and disgust with what we are. What we are is generally determined with what we have. What we have is generally determined with what we can. What we can is generally determined with our physical and mental abilities. In other words, our day-to-day happiness is determined with the quality of the body- mind cluster we possess. That is the ignorance we happily harbor in our existential persistence. Therefore, every pain we experience is nothing but a hint of our frustration with our identity – body-mind cluster – in its core. Accordingly, we develop dreams of identities that we are not. Our lust for this dreamed identities grows stronger and stronger as our frustration with our actual identity increases increasing our disgust toward our current identity in return – it is a vicious circle. Gita is most vocal on this chaotic confusion we harbor e.g. Shreyan swadharmo vigunah paradharmat swanushthithat … The survival instinct imbedded in our existence – to run away from adversities – is turned to cowardice due to our wrong conditioning keeping us on the verge of escaping from any adverse situations at the very first instance. Escapism is in other words the agent of the suicide. Escaping from actions in its zenith becomes escaping from life as such. Very often people have tried to twist the concept of Nirvana relating it to suicide with me. My challenge to them is, " If you can quit your body without any effort, without any motivation or intention and without any assistance from anything including holding breath … that I say is Nirvana " . There cannot be a trace of any urge or purturbation at Nirvana. All associations are mitigated in spite of the physical association with the organic system. Therefore, the question of giving up the organic system can never arise at Nirvana since there is no organic system that such a soul cling on to in the first place. The identity dies in spite of the living. On the other hand, a suicide always ends a life with intense unfulfilled urge for an alien identity swarmed with perturbations. In fact, a suicider continues to " own " the identity that is being thrown away as well as the one that is dreamt after. Therefore, there is no real termination of association with the identity in such termination of life. In fact, all such associations are strengthened in the very attempt in spite of the physical sessation from the organic system. There is no question of giving up an identity at suicide since there is no faculty to exercise on such an act in the first place. Therefore, the individual identity exits stronger with heightened frustration having no more faculties to manipulate itself after the death. The identity never dies in spite of the death; in fact, it grows stronger in case of suicide, in particular. Most humans are perpetually in the act of suicide knowingly or unknowingly – trying to escape from situations, trying to hide their true identities, forging false relations in life etc. Gita, again, is quite strongly against any such suicidal attempt – inaction, running away from action e.g. Niyatam kuru karma tvam karma jyayohyakarmanah … The whole essence of Gita is the message " Fight! Do not give up!! " " Uttishthata! Jagrata!! Prapya varaannibodhata " as Kathopanishad puts it. 1. Suicide – termination of one's association with oneself As Ishopanishad puts it almost all humans are verily " aatmahanaah " – the self slayers, ones who have no clue of their true selves and the ones who do not dare to envision themselves in their lives – they prefer to live in pitch dark ignorance of themselves. It is true. Not knowing or insisting not to know anything is as good as the non- existence of that as far as they are concerned. If one does not know oneself, one's self is definitely slain within one's perception. In other words, one does not exist for oneself when one's existence is anything but oneself. You get this message in every verse of Bhagavad Gita. The whole Mahabharata war is to fight through all the elements of ignorance and inertia that try to separate one from oneself. The ignorant can never suicide from this perspective since they have never lived a life to give up one. On the other hand, the realized ones cannot see the death in the first place and hence live for ever. In fact, the ignorant are never born (Aja) since they never make any attempt to seek life; while, the realized seek life to realize that they are in fact Aja, the birthless (and hence deathless) since they are The Life. My understanding from Gita and all other scriptures regarding life, death and suicide is: One who lives can never die. One who covets life has to die. And, those who never lived would seek suicide. Respects. Naga Narayana. - Loving Divine, Pranam Here are few definitions: 1. the act of killing oneself deliberately: he tried to commit suicide 2. a person who kills himself or herself intentionally 3. the self-inflicted ruin of one's own career or future: such a cut would be political suicide OR The act of deliberately or intentionally taking one's own life. Suicidal behavior is any deliberate action that has a potentially life-threatening consequences, such as taking a drug overdose or deliberately crashing a car. The human act of self-inflicted, self-intentioned cessation. According to Freud, Suicide was murder turned around 180 degrees. A very poor response to a very bad day. OR A. Suicide is any form of self-killing, where self-killing is understood as acting in such a way as to bring about one's own death. B. Durkheim's definition of suicide: Suicide is the death resulting directly or indirectly from a positive or negative act of the victim himself, which he knows will produce this result. C. Another definition of suicide: X commits suicide if: X acts (or refrains form acting) in such a way as to bring about his own death. X intends by those actions to bring about his own death either because he wants his own death per se, or because he wants something which he thinks can be caused only by his death (not merely by the act which also causes his death as a foreseen but unintended consequence). Arjun was not willing to get killed bravely fighting the dharma yuddha (true kshatriya would die fighting to protect dharma) rather before even fight begins he had given up wanting to be killed (BG chapter 1 tells about it many times). This is a sin (paapa). He prefers begging over fighting the dharma yuddha! If Arjun would have wanted to die even unarmed truly fighting the war, Lord would not have to call him coward. Reading entire chapter 1 & 2 together will help understand the situation. Shri Krishna also explains the same thing in few slokas starting BG 2:31. humble regards, always at Thy Lotus Feet Manjula Patel ------------------------------ Pranam to all Sadhakas; Did Arjuna say that he wanted to commit suicide?? Where?? and When? In (1/46) Arjuna is ready to be killed (when unarmed) by the Kuravas. This is not suicide, though it may be suicidal in the end. In fact no Kshatriya worth his salt will think of suicide because nothing is more dear to him than a Dharma Yuddha which opens the gates of Heaven for him (2/31) Also a Kshtriya knows that if killed during a Dharma Yuddha, he will go straight to Heaven and if he survives he will enjoy life tothe fullest (2/37). Namaskar to all. Suhas Gogate - I feel Brother B.Sathyanarayan has put it in a very beautiful way. I too strongly think the same. Suicide is just trying to avoid one's karma, which is impossible, and has to be completed anyways! Love and Light Jacob - pranam what about the reverse of this. one kills others if they dont follow his path. like terrorists kill lots when they dont follow their suit. Pl. elaborate on geetaji. thanx raja gurdasani ---------------------------- -- Loving Divine, Pranam. Yes, Gitaji has mentioned about Arjun ready to commit suicide in BG 1:46. He was so dejected with the situation, he said to Krishna that it is better for me not to carry weapon or fight, rather let all equipped Kauravs kill me. The last sloka BG 1.47 says that after saying this Arjuna dropped his bow-arrows & sat down at the back seat of the chariott. Arjuna knew committing suicide is a sin so he finds an alternate way to get killed! Looking at his condition, Lord calls him cowered (BG 2:3). In BG 2:11, Krishna even becomes sarcastic. Arjuna continues with his depressive attitude & not wanting to face the situation (BG 2:9). Lord starts giving him advise why he should not kill himself or be upset over other bodies being killed BG 2:12. Also Krishna talks about what happens when people die in later chapters. When people die with unfulfilled desires, they have to be reborn. Nature wants them to learn the life lesson but by running away from it they are bound to face the situation over and over again until they learn and transcend themselves. So it is not good to commit suicide. I would suggest reading BG Chapter 1 & 2 thoroughly for better understanding. humble regards, always at Thy Holy Feet Manjula Patel - First let us understand that so called life and death _ how significant they are from the perspective of " SELF " and that of " GOD " . The correct answer is as insignificant as is our change of cloths_ Gita is relevant here.There are only three elements existing in this universe. JEEVA (Self), JAGDISH(God) and JAGAT(World including your body, mind, intellect and ego). Just as it is insignificant from Jeeva (Self) and Jagdish (God's) point of view , from Jagat (World's) point of view also they are not at all of any importance because the World changes, changes and does nothing except changes. A change for life is death and a change for death is life. Now come to " Suicide " . It is a running away from the reality. While Gita doesnot specifically refer about suicide but it is abundantly clear that it is an act of total stupidity and cowardice. Other Hindu Scriptures condemn this act in no uncertain terms. Where in fact is the need ever to get so upset? The punishment is " non entitlement of human life for eons and eons " You wasted the earlier life given to you. As simple as that. Vyas, N B Hare Krishna. I think that the right thing would be to stay alive until you die either by an accident or naturally, EVEN THOUGH you are in a vegetative state, because that way you'd be paying your karma, most probably a huge one!! Kind regards. Daniel Tkach Dear Sadaks, Why speak of Suicide when we are alive ? that is how to live peacefully and happily is what one needs to understand Thank you and best regards, Gokul Mehta ---------------------------- Dear Sadaks, Suicide is ones option to terminate body from functioning. Per my understanding, the soul after suicide remains in space until the time originaly alotted to a one on the 15th day of that baby in womb. The body and the soul with 5 kosas (5 layers of auras) comes to this earth with package of destiny which is based on it` s previous birth account of vasanas, karmas etc. As I understand, this soul hanging in space suffers worse than it was with body. The soul always carries along with it the kosas which has recorded it`s vasanas (impressions in the mind), acts, etc whether one dies naturally or suicide. The vasanas (impressions of the mind, desires, fancy imaginations, passioj) can be satisfied only with the equipment - body. The soul, now without body gets frustrated, being unable to satisfy it`s desires. Adi Sankara left his body and entered into a kings body for few days to gain certain knowledge. The soul can leave the body by yoga siddhi and reenter. By suicide one terminates the body before time span given to it. It is my understanding that the soul neither gets fresh body or goes to higher level, rather it suffers until life span given to it. So it is sinful to not do the karmas that was to one's account. Such a soul gets handicapped body after it`s life span ( with body and time without body). B.Sathyanarayan ------------------------------ Dear Sadhakas, We are all mentally committing suicide by not following the tenets of Vedas, Upanishads etc., hurting other people's feelings for our own physical betterment. Physical suicide is also on account of " Prarabdha Karma " , if one believes in the same. About this, much has been said in Gita. G.Vaidyanathan ------------------------------ Dear all, In democracy, suicide is permitted by euthanasia and legislation in EXTREME cases of body in absolutely unbearable condition. At times, suicide is assisted by husband, wife or relative ot of sheer pity and terminate suffering, or vegetative condition from paraplagia, where only moving part of person is his eyelids, being paralysed from neck downwards. At times sick people have travelled to other countries to get assisted suicide. Dr.Kevrokian also known as Dr. Death had number of clients, before he wasd stopped. Ramesh Jhalla ------------------------ Dear Sadhakas, Namaste! I don't know what Gita has said on this one, but some of us will know it and answer. my understanding is that it is our innate/intrinsic nature to exist and continue living in any condition. There are many proofs of this all around us when we see even terminally ill people would like to survive. It is just a natural instinct built in by God, the Intelligence itself! Suicide is thus, an unnatural act originating from dispairs, acute depression, or all such imaginations or ideas breeding fear in one! To end the body by suicide is an act of Ego, who wants to escape from responsibility causing pains to those loved ones left behind. Such a person only thinks of himself/herself and the pains he/she cannot endure, without thinking others who might be his/her dependents. This is acting very veryselfishly. Suicide is also a missed opportunity to hope for the best and realize Truth which has been discovered by some while facing such acute crisis! If one has complete trust in God and thereby in oneself, one cannot commit such an act. One goes on living inspite of problems! A man of wisdom will never commit suicide. Such a person would always know that to end the suffering, Life is a better alternative to suicide. Namaskaras... Pratap (Pratap Bhatt) -------------------------------- This is my humble opinion. In Gita, it is not explicitly mentioned 'not to commit suicide' but eloborates on the concept of death in second chapter when Arjuna is wrried about killing his own relatives. Gita states that death can be considered similarly as : as the soul taking different births and going thro the cycle of life and death similar to a person shunning the old clothes and wearing the new ones. There is no death for soul but states abour death of body only, which comes from earth and becomes one with earth as the soul takes a different journey in different body. Also, Gita talks about karma yoga (concept of fulfilling your duties :whatever it may be by choice or circumstances and whatever you think ur duty is at that time without thinking/expecting fruits for any actions at all.). If one understand this in deep, he/she also understands that there is no worry in life about anything since whatever it is, you can just offer /surrender that complete activity onto that Supreme. If one is able to surrender to that God, he is free of worries/stress/depression /etc and then one will will be able to understand that there is no need to commit suicide at all. Regards, Bharathi ------------------------------ We all are commiting suicide everday. To jump before train, or fast unto death is conventional definition but if one is drinking alcohol, eating tobacco or living a diseased life style, these are all known and voluntary action of self-destruction. Gita only says about life and death as manifestation of certain appearance as per our true nature (svabhaav). Actually, the real person does not die and comes back again to know the purpose of life rather than rejecting it. Regards K G (Krishna Gopal) -------------------------------- Thank you for your duty, be blessed by all Gods, that they fill your heart with love and trust in the power of Shiva . please if possible, send me more about this subject. I am fed up with my western woman hindu body. Very hard penance OM EIN KALINK CHAMUNDAYE VITCHE OM shiva shakti shanti shanti ---------------------- GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: 1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify their doubts related to Gitaji shalokas. Therefore, responses which further clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be posted. 2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to substantiate your response. 3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas 4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting sadhaka's time. 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only. 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other organizations. 7. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone number, address etc. 8. Please do not address the response to a particular individual since the message is going to the entire group. 9. Due to the large readership, all responses may not be posted. 10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if content is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the group. 11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use to Sanskrit words only, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit bracketed wherever possible. MODERATOR Ram Ram Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 25, 2008 Report Share Posted October 25, 2008 Shree Hari Ram Ram Due to request by Sadhak, this topic is being re-introduced. From Gita Talk Moderator Ram Ram ------------------------------- QUESTION: Why one must not commit suicide ? Is there anything written against suicide ? Does Gita say anything about this ? Please elaborate pandek NEW POSTING Hari Om Suicide is the best example of the limitation/imperfection/deficiency of " mind " ! How in the web created by itself, the mind becomes clueless in the end? Can this mind help in reaching to God ? No ! Never!! One can not make suicide at all if one distinguishes himself from mind. Your mind and your love for this machine only creates a helplessness for you. All inferences/perceptions are derived by the mind only out of given innocent circumstances, which perceptions only lead a person to commit even suicide. If a person uses " discrimination " - viveka , he can never commit suicide. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B Dear Godly Atma's Understanding the 'Cause and Effect', our soul is reborn to act as per the Effect. Suicide ends this effect and so it will start and continue from that point in the next Birth. So this suffering does not end as the soul will carry this 'Cause' also added to the previous deeds. This should be taught at school and college level also. But this spiritual science of Logic is not Physically Scientific, so kept away from Educational University and Boards. Regards Swapan PURKAYASTHA if someone commits suicide than he will be reborn and will suffer more. because of this suicide is not a good choice in life. dewanand PRIOR POSTING -Shree Hari- Dear sadhaks, Suicide is such a terrible thing that it does need attention. I have been in situations where people were close to suicide, two told me out rite, (what a burden to have someone place their lives in ones hands as it were). The other situation was far more imminent, I will keep it brief: A colleague who was working for me, I noticed was getting more and more withdrawn. Finally he was crouched on the floor, definitely putting his life at risk. My superiors had backed off, I took on the task. He had an answer to all my logic, I was concerned for his and my own well-being. I knew that this situation was really bad. Suddenly I looked into his eyes and said " You are precious! " , and quietly said " We all are precious " . His eyes filled with tears the crisis was over. So I will repeat to all who read this, We are all precious ! So if one can save a soul from all the terrors that can await him/her as a result of suicide. Then it is a precious gift for both of you. So never, never hesitate, to help such a soul ! Divine love will guide you. That which I have written above is not about me, it's about divine love. I think these sad souls I mentioned had fallen into a trap, something to do with ego born of ignorance. Gitaji: 4: 22. Content with what comes to him without effort, free from the pairs of opposites and envy, even-minded in success and failure, Though acting, he is not bound. 4: 42. Therefore, with the sword of knowledge (of the Self) cut asunder the doubt of the self born of ignorance, residing in your heart, and take refuge in Yoga; arise, Arjuna! With Respect and Divine Love, Mike Keenor Re Saadhak Jaisinghani " s response to Manjulaji What a fast conclusion ! Where is the question of Hindus? Gitaji is the world " s best holy book. Any one on this earth is entitled to live life as per Gitaji- irrespective of caste,creed,colour, country,culture 0r religion . In Gitaji it is no where written that it is applicable to only Hindus . Manjulaji also did not tell that Gitaji is only applicable to Hindus. What was the query and where we have reached? Whether according to Ashokji suicide is only the problem of Hindus? Whose problem is it- except that of the departed soul? Is that problem so grave that a conclusion of the type – " Why we should follow Bhagwad Gita " can be arrived at? Gitaji is heritage of Hindu Sanatan Dharma. It is the nectar of all Vedas and Upanishads. Ashokji should himself read that ! He should have " shraddha " (respectful belief) in Geetaji ,if he is so conscious about at least Hindus or if he is proud of being a Hindu! Leave aside " shraddha " at least he should read it, before making such an astonishing,hasty remark! If even by mistake he reads Gitaji or touches it even, he will have benefits in life. A lot of Saadhaks have responded to the query regarding suicide in a really earnest and sincere manner. Beautiful answers have been given to the query. What doubts you have now reg the suicide ? Is not that the primary object of this forum, or the primary duty of all participants? Who wrote that Gitaji " cannot provide answers to the social and political situations and problems of all types " ? Certainly Manjulaji did not write that. She simply said the type of examples given by you ( country " s secrets, abduction, rape, saving the king in battlefield etc) are socio political situations not directly addressed ! For whatever reasons you commit suicide it is bad! She also said that no where in Gitaji it is said that suicide is OK! Had it been a great act , would not it have been listed in the first three verses of Chapter 16 ! And you have arrived at such conclusions!! We must treat this forum with the minimum decorum and maturity. This column is read by millions of people across the globe. Let us impart this column a respect. Vyas, N.B. shree hari Ram Ram In many lectures when asked about suicide, Swamiji emphasized the rarity of receiving a human birth. It is only in this form of birth that God Realization is possible, freeing this embodied soul once and for all from the cycle of birth and death. There is 8.4 millions different life forms, but only by His grace we have in the middle received this human body and birth. With this human body, many amazing things are possible. We can become eternally free of all sorrows. Out of God's grace and compassion He has given us this human birth, then do you believe His grace will be of no avail? Does it make any sense to not eat food after everything has been prepared for us, placed on a silver plate and served to us ? His grace can never go to waste. > > Yes! God has given man the freedom. With this freedom, man has the > choice of utilizing this freedom to attain salvation. On the other hand, man has the choice of mis-utilizing and going into the vicious cycle of 8.4 million different forms of births, or going to hell. Now ! Does is make any sense to commit suicide and get trapped into another life form and not know when we will have the opportunity again to get out of that cycle? Most importantly, we have no such rights to destroy that which does not belong to us ! In reality, this freedom has been provided to man to uplift himself and only to attain salvation and not for misusing it. Meera Das Ram Ram > -------------------------------- Hello everyone, I saw the below question in the email thread.. : You have clearly indicated that the Bhagwad Gita cannot provide answers to the social and political situations and problems of all times. Why should we follow the Bhagwad Gita if it cannot solve the problems of Hindus? Ashok T. Jaisinghani. ---------------------------- This is my humble opinion regarding the above question. Please do not come to conclusion about what others say whether its mentioned in Bhagavadgita or not...please try to understand the gist of Bhagavdgita by your own self and your own understanding which will open the doors to new perspective. Some questions are very difficult to answer 'yes' or 'no' with respect to..whether Bhagavad Gita covers certain subject or not...Bhagavd Gita is not like any other subject..(any scriptures for that matter) because the mind is a mysterious thing and hence these teaching once you go through step by step understanding what it means to you will be the great first step. Again, after reading them..it may be better idea not to think why others are not going in the right path or not..its only to yourself..these teachings are all for only oneself and once you try to practice whatever you feel right in your heart..then you can feel the peace will be in ur heart irrespective of whatever that comes your way. this is my humble opinion again. Regards, Bharathi > - Nowadays, nobody shouldd commit suicide because in the pretext of that, a lot of suicide bombers by their agenda of 'attaining martyrdom', have threatened global peace. This has also led to the abuse of a sacred religious ideal namely dying for the nobility, for certain virtues, values, for saving mothers, children, the motherland etc. All might die; but nobody has the right to kill including himself or herself. Dr Shastry - Why one must not commit suicide? Simply because as per Hinduism, it is against the very principle of nonviolence. The concept of nonviolence is not only applicable towards others but more so to oneself and perhaps to a much larger degree. A violence performed onto oneself is perhaps a bigger sin.. -Ravi Khattree -------------------------------- Hinsa or violence is undesirable whether to own self or to others. This (hinsa, violence) is violation of the Dharma (self nature in free and independent state). TAPASYA is enduring the nature without recognizing its adverse effect, and this then end up in TYAG (renunciation). TAPSYA is not suicide or killing but an experiment with truth as did Gandhi. Jain muni have similar penance. TYAG (sacrifice) is a little different which also involves loss of life such as soldiers in war ready to kill and get killed for defense of a country, or ladies of Indian rulers with cool mind chosen to self immolate and defend the honour and deprivation from Khiljii. Similarly, sons of Sikh rulers also sacrificed for the traditional honour and self respect without surrendering to Mughals. BALI : Sacrifice of life is also for gaining knowledge. In medical > > sciences, animals and human trials are conducted for new drug or > > medical procedure as a part of study. These sacrifices of human and > > animals are for gaining knowede so that cause of diseases of known, > > and solved. Bali is not for eating animals and making business of > > meat and animal products. > > > > COWARDICE this is hinsa or violation where death is not in best > > choice, but a desperation. Killing animals for food, leather etc.. > > and accidents, suicides, killed by diseases are examples of AKAL > > MRITYU and all are cowardice. > > Regards > > K G > > (Krishna Gopal) > > -------------------------------- -- > > > > May I suggest to the learned scholars that they may consider > supplementing with the consequences of " suicide " . (Binu Bhaya hoye > na priti...). What happens after suicide? Where does that soul go? > What yoni he gets in next birth. How he suffers in that next birth > etc.? > > Hopefully keeping in context with Gitaji. > > > > A.H.Dalmia. > > > > -------------------------------- Why one must not suicide? Have we done anything to build our bodies the way they are? Have we done anything to run our thought process the way it is functioning? Then what right do we have to terminate them? Who are enjoying the body-mind cluster blessed to us by God's grace? How can one who is enjoying the gifts of God be right in deciding to throw away the same? Who are we to throw our bodies? What rights do we have to judge upon the gifts graced on us? It is our duty to respect what we have received gracefully. Do we have any other means to appreciate what we are? The only path we have to seek ourselves is through the same body and mind we are blessed with. Therefore, it is our duty to serve our body-mind clusters to appreciate ourselves deeper and clearer. Our relation with our bodies and minds should be the foremost Upasana – worship with full awareness, commitment and reverence. Therefore, (1) we have no right to terminate our bodily existence; (2) it is our duty to serve the same to our best abilities; and (3) it is for our own upliftment we respect what we are blessed with. Living healthy – physically as well as mentally – is the fundamental need for spiritual progress. The root cause for all our miseries is our self-alienation – farther we are from our true selves, more miserable we will feel. Feeling miserable is the most fundamental sin of all. The very thought of suicide is the acute crystalization of all our miseries. It is our foremost duty to face our miseries and resolve their fundamental cause by getting closer to what we are rather than what we have or we have not. Therefore, it is our fundamental right as well as duty Adhikara means responsive authority and authoritative response) to seek ourselves to affect reduction of all our miseries categorically. Therefore, we must pause on our mundane suicidal life of ignoring ourselves, watch our ignorance and get closer to ourselves as we move along rather than deviating from ourselves in our actions, thoughts and experiences. Again, that is our right as well as duty. It is time we should claim our rights and execute our duties. Therefore, Utthishthata jagrata prapya varaannibodhata | Kshurasya dhara nishita duratyaya durgam pathastat kavayo vadante|| Wake up ! Get vigilent !! Approach The Right, Your Self !!! The path you tread upon in life is like a razor edge … in no time you would slip to the wrong ways, if you are not alert. Therefore … Be aware ! Be alert !! Be correct !!! Respects. Naga Narayana. ------------------------- Is there anything written against suicide ? Everything that is written in sanity is against suicide! The very life is designed against suicide!! Every gene in every cell of yours carries this message!!! Acknowledge the message. Understand the message. Experience the message. Receive the essence of wisdom from life. Respond to the life with wisdom. Resonate with the life as yourself. THAT IS JOY. There cannot be a room for any thoughts against the life in such JOY. Find IT. Seek IT. Be IT. This is my understanding I am blessed with from all our scriptures as well as life. Respects. Naga Narayana. > > > ------------------------------ -- Bhagwat Gita is not against killing or defending or resistance with or without force but is against HINSA or Reaction. This means, life and death in the form of killing others, or sacrifice (kurbaani) of soldiers for saving the mother land in war for struggle for freedom are AHINSA or Non Reaction. Arjun was explained this concept by Sri Krishna that the act of war in a situation when laws and order get deteriorated is a duty (kartavya) for Chhatria and it is swabhaav of Arjun that will respond it and not react it. Fire is duty bound to burn and this is its swabhaav. Water has different swabhaav and it is bound to act as per it. So the purity of swabhaav is not reactive but not delayed in responses, and accepts no restriction. Had Arjun not responded to call of war and surrendered meekly to bad governance (Dus Shaasan) and bad authority (Dur Yodhan) and Structure of Government serving them (Karna i.e., structure) those born of insensitive law and order (blind Dhrat Rashtra i.e., on which a nation i.e., Rashtra rests i.e., Dhrat), that would have been a HINSA and cowerdice and life of Arjun falling from its swabhaav. Suicide is escaping from ones own self, and this is failing attempt of getting out of situation. The impression will be carried over to next life or further future, and till the time one understands own swabhaav and responds it with its ability (purusharth). Gandhi was fasting very often and gets close to death, Jain muni also follow similar thing. But this is TAPASYA or testing of endurance to observe nature from a distance. These are not suicide or cowardice. Bhagwat Gita, in fact, begins with Kaparnya Dosho Pahatah Swabhaavah Prkshyami Twam Dharma Sammoodh Chetah That means, Arjun asking (pakshyami) Sri Krishna what to do when the swabhaav is beginning to fall (pahatah), and he gets diseased (dosho) with cowerdice of inaction (kaparnya). best regards K G(Krishna Gopal) -------------------------------- Loving Divine, Pranam. To best of my knowledge, the message in Gitaji is - it is ok to die fighting with the enemy but killing oneself is an 'upmrityu'. To do whatever it takes to protect oneself or the nation is not considered suicide, it is called scacrifying for greater interest. No, I have NOT clearly indicated that 'the Bhagwad Gita cannot provide answers to the social and political situations and problems of all times. Unfortunately, people want to talk about BG but don't want to implement any of it's teachings. If men, would curtail their desires to control the world, greed for material pleasure, his heightened ego, his indulgence in immoral sense pleasure, his tendencies to discriminate others and treat them as low life, and his delusional living, etc. as discussed in BG and other scriptures, the world would be lot better - women & other men, will not have to suffer...! Honestly who wants to follow the path shown by Lord? Everyone wants name & fame, earn more money, still others ideas and present them as their own to build their career, who really wants God? When the intentions are delusional, how to expect that they will understand God's message in BG? I had mentioned it before also that social transformation is possible only by individual transformation but who really wants to change? Please clarify you real issue! it sure will help. humble regards, always at Thy Divine Feet Manjula Patel -------------------------------- > > > You have clearly indicated that the Bhagwad Gita cannot > > > provide answers to the social and political situations and > > > problems of all times. Why should we follow the Bhagwad > > > Gita if it cannot solve the problems of Hindus? > > > Ashok T. Jaisinghani. > > > > > > ------------------------------ -- > - Loving Divine. Pranam. The following are all based on social & political situations and are not addressed in Bhagawat Gita. I have not run across any thing in Bhagawat Gita indicating committing suicide is ok. humble regards, always at Thy Holy Feet Manjula Patel ------------------------------- > > > What about killing one's self to escape rape, abduction, to save > > > life of king or leader in a battlefield, to escape from enemies > > that > > > may lead to torture and revealing Country's secrets ? > > > > > > Ashok T. Jaisinghani Dear Sadhika, Pranaam. Committing suicide means ending your body. Whats the use of ending up something(body) which is going to end itself anyway ? Instead bear it and align yourself with the purpose of your existence. Gitaji says-bear pain and pleasure as you bear cold and hot weather. As you said- " I " am fed up with my ... " body " . This implies that you are already aware of the fact that " I " am not " my body " . Gitaji;1:18 Then who am I ? Gitaji Chapter 1, 2 will explain you. Please first find out WHO AM I ? You are already at the higher state of consciousness where you know that you are not the body, please meditate more and contemplate on " who am I " . As you go deeper you will know that you are not your mental, emotional assumptions, you are not what the other people think of you and you are not what you think you are.You are not the sufferings, you are not the pain your body and mind is going through, you are not that mental emotional role you are playing everyday. Then who are you ? Please find out, its important. Every shaloka of Gitaji is full of answers. Read, re-read, contemplate, meditate. I will suggest reading Eckhart Tolle's books - " Power of now " and " A new earth " . He was thinking of ending his life but ultimately he got realization out of that. with lots of love, a sadhika Sadhna Karigar ------------------------------- What is suicide? Is it terminating one's association with the body-mind cluster or terminating one's association with oneself? Isopanishad declares that it is the later who are the suiciders (aatmahanah) though we ignorantly are obsessed with the former. Bhagavad Gita – the essence of all Upanishads – certainly deals with both. 1. Suicide – termination of one's association with the body-mind cluster One's attempt for cessation from the body-mind cluster is condemned throughout the Bhagavad Gita. All our miseries are nothing but symptoms of our frustration and disgust with what we are. What we are is generally determined with what we have. What we have is generally determined with what we can. What we can is generally determined with our physical and mental abilities. In other words, our day-to-day happiness is determined with the quality of the body- mind cluster we possess. That is the ignorance we happily harbor in our existential persistence. Therefore, every pain we experience is nothing but a hint of our frustration with our identity – body-mind cluster – in its core. Accordingly, we develop dreams of identities that we are not. Our lust for this dreamed identities grows stronger and stronger as our frustration with our actual identity increases increasing our disgust toward our current identity in return – it is a vicious circle. Gita is most vocal on this chaotic confusion we harbor e.g. Shreyan swadharmo vigunah paradharmat swanushthithat … The survival instinct imbedded in our existence – to run away from adversities – is turned to cowardice due to our wrong conditioning keeping us on the verge of escaping from any adverse situations at the very first instance. Escapism is in other words the agent of the suicide. Escaping from actions in its zenith becomes escaping from life as such. Very often people have tried to twist the concept of Nirvana relating it to suicide with me. My challenge to them is, " If you can quit your body without any effort, without any motivation or intention and without any assistance from anything including holding breath … that I say is Nirvana " . There cannot be a trace of any urge or purturbation at Nirvana. All associations are mitigated in spite of the physical association with the organic system. Therefore, the question of giving up the organic system can never arise at Nirvana since there is no organic system that such a soul cling on to in the first place. The identity dies in spite of the living. On the other hand, a suicide always ends a life with intense unfulfilled urge for an alien identity swarmed with perturbations. In fact, a suicider continues to " own " the identity that is being thrown away as well as the one that is dreamt after. Therefore, there is no real termination of association with the identity in such termination of life. In fact, all such associations are strengthened in the very attempt in spite of the physical sessation from the organic system. There is no question of giving up an identity at suicide since there is no faculty to exercise on such an act in the first place. Therefore, the individual identity exits stronger with heightened frustration having no more faculties to manipulate itself after the death. The identity never dies in spite of the death; in fact, it grows stronger in case of suicide, in particular. Most humans are perpetually in the act of suicide knowingly or unknowingly – trying to escape from situations, trying to hide their true identities, forging false relations in life etc. Gita, again, is quite strongly against any such suicidal attempt – inaction, running away from action e.g. Niyatam kuru karma tvam karma jyayohyakarmanah … The whole essence of Gita is the message " Fight! Do not give up!! " " Uttishthata! Jagrata!! Prapya varaannibodhata " as Kathopanishad puts it. 1. Suicide – termination of one's association with oneself As Ishopanishad puts it almost all humans are verily " aatmahanaah " – the self slayers, ones who have no clue of their true selves and the ones who do not dare to envision themselves in their lives – they prefer to live in pitch dark ignorance of themselves. It is true. Not knowing or insisting not to know anything is as good as the non- existence of that as far as they are concerned. If one does not know oneself, one's self is definitely slain within one's perception. In other words, one does not exist for oneself when one's existence is anything but oneself. You get this message in every verse of Bhagavad Gita. The whole Mahabharata war is to fight through all the elements of ignorance and inertia that try to separate one from oneself. The ignorant can never suicide from this perspective since they have never lived a life to give up one. On the other hand, the realized ones cannot see the death in the first place and hence live for ever. In fact, the ignorant are never born (Aja) since they never make any attempt to seek life; while, the realized seek life to realize that they are in fact Aja, the birthless (and hence deathless) since they are The Life. My understanding from Gita and all other scriptures regarding life, death and suicide is: One who lives can never die. One who covets life has to die. And, those who never lived would seek suicide. Respects. Naga Narayana. - Loving Divine, Pranam Here are few definitions: 1. the act of killing oneself deliberately: he tried to commit suicide 2. a person who kills himself or herself intentionally 3. the self-inflicted ruin of one's own career or future: such a cut would be political suicide OR The act of deliberately or intentionally taking one's own life. Suicidal behavior is any deliberate action that has a potentially life-threatening consequences, such as taking a drug overdose or deliberately crashing a car. The human act of self-inflicted, self-intentioned cessation. According to Freud, Suicide was murder turned around 180 degrees. A very poor response to a very bad day. OR A. Suicide is any form of self-killing, where self-killing is understood as acting in such a way as to bring about one's own death. B. Durkheim's definition of suicide: Suicide is the death resulting directly or indirectly from a positive or negative act of the victim himself, which he knows will produce this result. C. Another definition of suicide: X commits suicide if: X acts (or refrains form acting) in such a way as to bring about his own death. X intends by those actions to bring about his own death either because he wants his own death per se, or because he wants something which he thinks can be caused only by his death (not merely by the act which also causes his death as a foreseen but unintended consequence). Arjun was not willing to get killed bravely fighting the dharma yuddha (true kshatriya would die fighting to protect dharma) rather before even fight begins he had given up wanting to be killed (BG chapter 1 tells about it many times). This is a sin (paapa). He prefers begging over fighting the dharma yuddha! If Arjun would have wanted to die even unarmed truly fighting the war, Lord would not have to call him coward. Reading entire chapter 1 & 2 together will help understand the situation. Shri Krishna also explains the same thing in few slokas starting BG 2:31. humble regards, always at Thy Lotus Feet Manjula Patel ------------------------------ Pranam to all Sadhakas; Did Arjuna say that he wanted to commit suicide?? Where?? and When? In (1/46) Arjuna is ready to be killed (when unarmed) by the Kuravas. This is not suicide, though it may be suicidal in the end. In fact no Kshatriya worth his salt will think of suicide because nothing is more dear to him than a Dharma Yuddha which opens the gates of Heaven for him (2/31) Also a Kshtriya knows that if killed during a Dharma Yuddha, he will go straight to Heaven and if he survives he will enjoy life tothe fullest (2/37). Namaskar to all. Suhas Gogate - I feel Brother B.Sathyanarayan has put it in a very beautiful way. I too strongly think the same. Suicide is just trying to avoid one's karma, which is impossible, and has to be completed anyways! Love and Light Jacob - pranam what about the reverse of this. one kills others if they dont follow his path. like terrorists kill lots when they dont follow their suit. Pl. elaborate on geetaji. thanx raja gurdasani ---------------------------- -- Loving Divine, Pranam. Yes, Gitaji has mentioned about Arjun ready to commit suicide in BG 1:46. He was so dejected with the situation, he said to Krishna that it is better for me not to carry weapon or fight, rather let all equipped Kauravs kill me. The last sloka BG 1.47 says that after saying this Arjuna dropped his bow-arrows & sat down at the back seat of the chariott. Arjuna knew committing suicide is a sin so he finds an alternate way to get killed! Looking at his condition, Lord calls him cowered (BG 2:3). In BG 2:11, Krishna even becomes sarcastic. Arjuna continues with his depressive attitude & not wanting to face the situation (BG 2:9). Lord starts giving him advise why he should not kill himself or be upset over other bodies being killed BG 2:12. Also Krishna talks about what happens when people die in later chapters. When people die with unfulfilled desires, they have to be reborn. Nature wants them to learn the life lesson but by running away from it they are bound to face the situation over and over again until they learn and transcend themselves. So it is not good to commit suicide. I would suggest reading BG Chapter 1 & 2 thoroughly for better understanding. humble regards, always at Thy Holy Feet Manjula Patel - First let us understand that so called life and death _ how significant they are from the perspective of " SELF " and that of " GOD " . The correct answer is as insignificant as is our change of cloths_ Gita is relevant here.There are only three elements existing in this universe. JEEVA (Self), JAGDISH(God) and JAGAT(World including your body, mind, intellect and ego). Just as it is insignificant from Jeeva (Self) and Jagdish (God's) point of view , from Jagat (World's) point of view also they are not at all of any importance because the World changes, changes and does nothing except changes. A change for life is death and a change for death is life. Now come to " Suicide " . It is a running away from the reality. While Gita doesnot specifically refer about suicide but it is abundantly clear that it is an act of total stupidity and cowardice. Other Hindu Scriptures condemn this act in no uncertain terms. Where in fact is the need ever to get so upset? The punishment is " non entitlement of human life for eons and eons " You wasted the earlier life given to you. As simple as that. Vyas, N B Hare Krishna. I think that the right thing would be to stay alive until you die either by an accident or naturally, EVEN THOUGH you are in a vegetative state, because that way you'd be paying your karma, most probably a huge one!! Kind regards. Daniel Tkach Dear Sadaks, Why speak of Suicide when we are alive ? that is how to live peacefully and happily is what one needs to understand Thank you and best regards, Gokul Mehta ---------------------------- Dear Sadaks, Suicide is ones option to terminate body from functioning. Per my understanding, the soul after suicide remains in space until the time originaly alotted to a one on the 15th day of that baby in womb. The body and the soul with 5 kosas (5 layers of auras) comes to this earth with package of destiny which is based on it` s previous birth account of vasanas, karmas etc. As I understand, this soul hanging in space suffers worse than it was with body. The soul always carries along with it the kosas which has recorded it`s vasanas (impressions in the mind), acts, etc whether one dies naturally or suicide. The vasanas (impressions of the mind, desires, fancy imaginations, passioj) can be satisfied only with the equipment - body. The soul, now without body gets frustrated, being unable to satisfy it`s desires. Adi Sankara left his body and entered into a kings body for few days to gain certain knowledge. The soul can leave the body by yoga siddhi and reenter. By suicide one terminates the body before time span given to it. It is my understanding that the soul neither gets fresh body or goes to higher level, rather it suffers until life span given to it. So it is sinful to not do the karmas that was to one's account. Such a soul gets handicapped body after it`s life span ( with body and time without body). B.Sathyanarayan ------------------------------ Dear Sadhakas, We are all mentally committing suicide by not following the tenets of Vedas, Upanishads etc., hurting other people's feelings for our own physical betterment. Physical suicide is also on account of " Prarabdha Karma " , if one believes in the same. About this, much has been said in Gita. G.Vaidyanathan ------------------------------ Dear all, In democracy, suicide is permitted by euthanasia and legislation in EXTREME cases of body in absolutely unbearable condition. At times, suicide is assisted by husband, wife or relative ot of sheer pity and terminate suffering, or vegetative condition from paraplagia, where only moving part of person is his eyelids, being paralysed from neck downwards. At times sick people have travelled to other countries to get assisted suicide. Dr.Kevrokian also known as Dr. Death had number of clients, before he wasd stopped. Ramesh Jhalla ------------------------ Dear Sadhakas, Namaste! I don't know what Gita has said on this one, but some of us will know it and answer. my understanding is that it is our innate/intrinsic nature to exist and continue living in any condition. There are many proofs of this all around us when we see even terminally ill people would like to survive. It is just a natural instinct built in by God, the Intelligence itself! Suicide is thus, an unnatural act originating from dispairs, acute depression, or all such imaginations or ideas breeding fear in one! To end the body by suicide is an act of Ego, who wants to escape from responsibility causing pains to those loved ones left behind. Such a person only thinks of himself/herself and the pains he/she cannot endure, without thinking others who might be his/her dependents. This is acting very veryselfishly. Suicide is also a missed opportunity to hope for the best and realize Truth which has been discovered by some while facing such acute crisis! If one has complete trust in God and thereby in oneself, one cannot commit such an act. One goes on living inspite of problems! A man of wisdom will never commit suicide. Such a person would always know that to end the suffering, Life is a better alternative to suicide. Namaskaras... Pratap (Pratap Bhatt) -------------------------------- This is my humble opinion. In Gita, it is not explicitly mentioned 'not to commit suicide' but eloborates on the concept of death in second chapter when Arjuna is wrried about killing his own relatives. Gita states that death can be considered similarly as : as the soul taking different births and going thro the cycle of life and death similar to a person shunning the old clothes and wearing the new ones. There is no death for soul but states abour death of body only, which comes from earth and becomes one with earth as the soul takes a different journey in different body. Also, Gita talks about karma yoga (concept of fulfilling your duties :whatever it may be by choice or circumstances and whatever you think ur duty is at that time without thinking/expecting fruits for any actions at all.). If one understand this in deep, he/she also understands that there is no worry in life about anything since whatever it is, you can just offer /surrender that complete activity onto that Supreme. If one is able to surrender to that God, he is free of worries/stress/depression /etc and then one will will be able to understand that there is no need to commit suicide at all. Regards, Bharathi ------------------------------ We all are commiting suicide everday. To jump before train, or fast unto death is conventional definition but if one is drinking alcohol, eating tobacco or living a diseased life style, these are all known and voluntary action of self-destruction. Gita only says about life and death as manifestation of certain appearance as per our true nature (svabhaav). Actually, the real person does not die and comes back again to know the purpose of life rather than rejecting it. Regards K G (Krishna Gopal) -------------------------------- Thank you for your duty, be blessed by all Gods, that they fill your heart with love and trust in the power of Shiva . please if possible, send me more about this subject. I am fed up with my western woman hindu body. Very hard penance OM EIN KALINK CHAMUNDAYE VITCHE OM shiva shakti shanti shanti ---------------------- GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: 1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify their doubts related to Gitaji shalokas. Therefore, responses which further clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be posted. 2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to substantiate your response. 3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas 4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting sadhaka's time. 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only. 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other organizations. 7. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone number, address etc. 8. Please do not address the response to a particular individual since the message is going to the entire group. 9. Due to the large readership, all responses may not be posted. 10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if content is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the group. 11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use to Sanskrit words only, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit bracketed wherever possible. MODERATOR Ram Ram Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 26, 2008 Report Share Posted October 26, 2008 Shree Hari Ram Ram Due to request by Sadhak, this topic is being re-introduced. From Gita Talk Moderator Ram Ram ------------------------------- QUESTION: Why one must not commit suicide ? Is there anything written against suicide ? Does Gita say anything about this ? Please elaborate pandek NEW POSTING It was an extremely deplorable and grievous state to which Arjuna was reduced by the softness of the heart caused by his compassion. The thought of the dreadful effect of the war had made his mind so restless that he could not fix it on any thing even for a movement. 'Kinnorajyena Govinda kimbhogair " Jeevitenava " ?' Drawing a faithful picture of the state of his mind, Arjuna said several things including that his life would of no use to him whatsoever. The feeling of 'useless' life is the penultimate feeling of any person going for the extreme step of harming himself. Arjuna's laying down of arms and sinking down in his chariot in utter dejection with a mind map of grief and infatuation shows his disinterest on life. 'Urdhvamgachhanti satvastaa -- Adho gachhanti taamasaah' Arjuna's position is of a taamasika temperament, enveloped as they are in the effects of Tamoguna sink down like him. Lord Krishna cautioned Arjuna that 'Anubandham " kshayam " himsamanavekshachapourusham' loss to oneself or self destruction shall be treated as Tamasika. And it has been stated that a taamasika action of suicide leads to Ajnana i.e., birth in the species of stupid creatures, such as swine, dogs, plants etc., or condemnation to hell. Hence those seeking beatitude should never undertake such an act of suicide. In Ramayanam, Sita thinks of suicide ' Mamanunamatra 'Vadhyaaham' - So I shall commit suicide this very instant.It is not at all sinful for one to do. Then expressing her sorrow deeply immersed in grief like Arjuna tried to commit the heinous tamasic act. On listening to Hanuman she withdrew from the thought of killing herself. The Isa Upanishad 'Asuryanaama -- Ekecha 'aatmahano' janaah. Those demoniac regions in the form of the lower forms of life, such as swine, dogs and so on , and the infernal regions are enveloped in the darkness of ignorance. Those who commit suicide are condemned to them. As some of the sources of Indian Constitution are Upanishads and other scriptures, attempted suicide is punishable today under our criminal justice system. The answer to the question is that one must not commit suicide. Dr.Goli Dear Pandek, I do not think that anything has been said specifically against 'suicide' as such. Nearest to that extent, Arjuna says that he will find it better being killed in the war by the Kauravas, when he is unarmed. (Ch I.46). To my understanding of our scriptures, this body has been given to us to lead a righteous life and thereby get elevation to higher births and eventually to Release from Cycle of Births & Deaths. (Sareera maadhyam khalu dharma saadhanam). Further as per Karma Theory, this body has been assumed by our soul (from Ativaahika Sareera) in the soul-evolution-process, to discharge certain quota of Karma (Praarabdha Karma). Hence to short close that period of destined life amounts to leaving the praarabhda karma incomplete, necessitating another birth to clear it. Yet again, when we cannot give birth to a life (remember : a child being born to us is not our doing, but God's Grace), we have no right to take one either. Hence from all view points, one must not commit suicide. From mundane world point of view also, committing suicide is an exhibition of cowardice and lack of courage to face realities of life! Prof Ramanujam. ------------------------------- We will all leave this world when the time comes. After 8.4 million births, we are born as humans, the highest form of life, which is very rare. We should use this life to attain moksh and our soul should join God so that we are spared the endless and painful cycle of birth and death, because only human beings are thus enabled. Therefore we should not end our lives in vain to be condemned to another 8.4 million births of pain and misery. This has already been said before but it is worth repeating. Hari Shanker Deo PRIOR POSTING Hari Om Suicide is the best example of the limitation/imperfection/deficiency of " mind " ! How in the web created by itself, the mind becomes clueless in the end? Can this mind help in reaching to God ? No ! Never!! One can not make suicide at all if one distinguishes himself from mind. Your mind and your love for this machine only creates a helplessness for you. All inferences/perceptions are derived by the mind only out of given innocent circumstances, which perceptions only lead a person to commit even suicide. If a person uses " discrimination " - viveka , he can never commit suicide. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B Dear Godly Atma's Understanding the 'Cause and Effect', our soul is reborn to act as per the Effect. Suicide ends this effect and so it will start and continue from that point in the next Birth. So this suffering does not end as the soul will carry this 'Cause' also added to the previous deeds. This should be taught at school and college level also. But this spiritual science of Logic is not Physically Scientific, so kept away from Educational University and Boards. Regards Swapan PURKAYASTHA if someone commits suicide than he will be reborn and will suffer more. because of this suicide is not a good choice in life. dewanand PRIOR POSTING -Shree Hari- Dear sadhaks, Suicide is such a terrible thing that it does need attention. I have been in situations where people were close to suicide, two told me out rite, (what a burden to have someone place their lives in ones hands as it were). The other situation was far more imminent, I will keep it brief: A colleague who was working for me, I noticed was getting more and more withdrawn. Finally he was crouched on the floor, definitely putting his life at risk. My superiors had backed off, I took on the task. He had an answer to all my logic, I was concerned for his and my own well-being. I knew that this situation was really bad. Suddenly I looked into his eyes and said " You are precious! " , and quietly said " We all are precious " . His eyes filled with tears the crisis was over. So I will repeat to all who read this, We are all precious ! So if one can save a soul from all the terrors that can await him/her as a result of suicide. Then it is a precious gift for both of you. So never, never hesitate, to help such a soul ! Divine love will guide you. That which I have written above is not about me, it's about divine love. I think these sad souls I mentioned had fallen into a trap, something to do with ego born of ignorance. Gitaji: 4: 22. Content with what comes to him without effort, free from the pairs of opposites and envy, even-minded in success and failure, Though acting, he is not bound. 4: 42. Therefore, with the sword of knowledge (of the Self) cut asunder the doubt of the self born of ignorance, residing in your heart, and take refuge in Yoga; arise, Arjuna! With Respect and Divine Love, Mike Keenor Re Saadhak Jaisinghani " s response to Manjulaji What a fast conclusion ! Where is the question of Hindus? Gitaji is the world " s best holy book. Any one on this earth is entitled to live life as per Gitaji- irrespective of caste,creed,colour, country,culture 0r religion . In Gitaji it is no where written that it is applicable to only Hindus . Manjulaji also did not tell that Gitaji is only applicable to Hindus. What was the query and where we have reached? Whether according to Ashokji suicide is only the problem of Hindus? Whose problem is it- except that of the departed soul? Is that problem so grave that a conclusion of the type – " Why we should follow Bhagwad Gita " can be arrived at? Gitaji is heritage of Hindu Sanatan Dharma. It is the nectar of all Vedas and Upanishads. Ashokji should himself read that ! He should have " shraddha " (respectful belief) in Geetaji ,if he is so conscious about at least Hindus or if he is proud of being a Hindu! Leave aside " shraddha " at least he should read it, before making such an astonishing,hasty remark! If even by mistake he reads Gitaji or touches it even, he will have benefits in life. A lot of Saadhaks have responded to the query regarding suicide in a really earnest and sincere manner. Beautiful answers have been given to the query. What doubts you have now reg the suicide ? Is not that the primary object of this forum, or the primary duty of all participants? Who wrote that Gitaji " cannot provide answers to the social and political situations and problems of all types " ? Certainly Manjulaji did not write that. She simply said the type of examples given by you ( country " s secrets, abduction, rape, saving the king in battlefield etc) are socio political situations not directly addressed ! For whatever reasons you commit suicide it is bad! She also said that no where in Gitaji it is said that suicide is OK! Had it been a great act , would not it have been listed in the first three verses of Chapter 16 ! And you have arrived at such conclusions!! We must treat this forum with the minimum decorum and maturity. This column is read by millions of people across the globe. Let us impart this column a respect. Vyas, N.B. shree hari Ram Ram In many lectures when asked about suicide, Swamiji emphasized the rarity of receiving a human birth. It is only in this form of birth that God Realization is possible, freeing this embodied soul once and for all from the cycle of birth and death. There is 8.4 millions different life forms, but only by His grace we have in the middle received this human body and birth. With this human body, many amazing things are possible. We can become eternally free of all sorrows. Out of God's grace and compassion He has given us this human birth, then do you believe His grace will be of no avail? Does it make any sense to not eat food after everything has been prepared for us, placed on a silver plate and served to us ? His grace can never go to waste. > > Yes! God has given man the freedom. With this freedom, man has the > choice of utilizing this freedom to attain salvation. On the other hand, man has the choice of mis-utilizing and going into the vicious cycle of 8.4 million different forms of births, or going to hell. Now ! Does is make any sense to commit suicide and get trapped into another life form and not know when we will have the opportunity again to get out of that cycle? Most importantly, we have no such rights to destroy that which does not belong to us ! In reality, this freedom has been provided to man to uplift himself and only to attain salvation and not for misusing it. Meera Das Ram Ram > -------------------------------- Hello everyone, I saw the below question in the email thread.. : You have clearly indicated that the Bhagwad Gita cannot provide answers to the social and political situations and problems of all times. Why should we follow the Bhagwad Gita if it cannot solve the problems of Hindus? Ashok T. Jaisinghani. ---------------------------- This is my humble opinion regarding the above question. Please do not come to conclusion about what others say whether its mentioned in Bhagavadgita or not...please try to understand the gist of Bhagavdgita by your own self and your own understanding which will open the doors to new perspective. Some questions are very difficult to answer 'yes' or 'no' with respect to..whether Bhagavad Gita covers certain subject or not...Bhagavd Gita is not like any other subject..(any scriptures for that matter) because the mind is a mysterious thing and hence these teaching once you go through step by step understanding what it means to you will be the great first step. Again, after reading them..it may be better idea not to think why others are not going in the right path or not..its only to yourself..these teachings are all for only oneself and once you try to practice whatever you feel right in your heart..then you can feel the peace will be in ur heart irrespective of whatever that comes your way. this is my humble opinion again. Regards, Bharathi > - Nowadays, nobody shouldd commit suicide because in the pretext of that, a lot of suicide bombers by their agenda of 'attaining martyrdom', have threatened global peace. This has also led to the abuse of a sacred religious ideal namely dying for the nobility, for certain virtues, values, for saving mothers, children, the motherland etc. All might die; but nobody has the right to kill including himself or herself. Dr Shastry - Why one must not commit suicide? Simply because as per Hinduism, it is against the very principle of nonviolence. The concept of nonviolence is not only applicable towards others but more so to oneself and perhaps to a much larger degree. A violence performed onto oneself is perhaps a bigger sin.. -Ravi Khattree -------------------------------- Hinsa or violence is undesirable whether to own self or to others. This (hinsa, violence) is violation of the Dharma (self nature in free and independent state). TAPASYA is enduring the nature without recognizing its adverse effect, and this then end up in TYAG (renunciation). TAPSYA is not suicide or killing but an experiment with truth as did Gandhi. Jain muni have similar penance. TYAG (sacrifice) is a little different which also involves loss of life such as soldiers in war ready to kill and get killed for defense of a country, or ladies of Indian rulers with cool mind chosen to self immolate and defend the honour and deprivation from Khiljii. Similarly, sons of Sikh rulers also sacrificed for the traditional honour and self respect without surrendering to Mughals. BALI : Sacrifice of life is also for gaining knowledge. In medical > > sciences, animals and human trials are conducted for new drug or > > medical procedure as a part of study. These sacrifices of human and > > animals are for gaining knowede so that cause of diseases of known, > > and solved. Bali is not for eating animals and making business of > > meat and animal products. > > > > COWARDICE this is hinsa or violation where death is not in best > > choice, but a desperation. Killing animals for food, leather etc.. > > and accidents, suicides, killed by diseases are examples of AKAL > > MRITYU and all are cowardice. > > Regards > > K G > > (Krishna Gopal) > > -------------------------------- -- > > > > May I suggest to the learned scholars that they may consider > supplementing with the consequences of " suicide " . (Binu Bhaya hoye > na priti...). What happens after suicide? Where does that soul go? > What yoni he gets in next birth. How he suffers in that next birth > etc.? > > Hopefully keeping in context with Gitaji. > > > > A.H.Dalmia. > > > > -------------------------------- Why one must not suicide? Have we done anything to build our bodies the way they are? Have we done anything to run our thought process the way it is functioning? Then what right do we have to terminate them? Who are enjoying the body-mind cluster blessed to us by God's grace? How can one who is enjoying the gifts of God be right in deciding to throw away the same? Who are we to throw our bodies? What rights do we have to judge upon the gifts graced on us? It is our duty to respect what we have received gracefully. Do we have any other means to appreciate what we are? The only path we have to seek ourselves is through the same body and mind we are blessed with. Therefore, it is our duty to serve our body-mind clusters to appreciate ourselves deeper and clearer. Our relation with our bodies and minds should be the foremost Upasana – worship with full awareness, commitment and reverence. Therefore, (1) we have no right to terminate our bodily existence; (2) it is our duty to serve the same to our best abilities; and (3) it is for our own upliftment we respect what we are blessed with. Living healthy – physically as well as mentally – is the fundamental need for spiritual progress. The root cause for all our miseries is our self-alienation – farther we are from our true selves, more miserable we will feel. Feeling miserable is the most fundamental sin of all. The very thought of suicide is the acute crystalization of all our miseries. It is our foremost duty to face our miseries and resolve their fundamental cause by getting closer to what we are rather than what we have or we have not. Therefore, it is our fundamental right as well as duty Adhikara means responsive authority and authoritative response) to seek ourselves to affect reduction of all our miseries categorically. Therefore, we must pause on our mundane suicidal life of ignoring ourselves, watch our ignorance and get closer to ourselves as we move along rather than deviating from ourselves in our actions, thoughts and experiences. Again, that is our right as well as duty. It is time we should claim our rights and execute our duties. Therefore, Utthishthata jagrata prapya varaannibodhata | Kshurasya dhara nishita duratyaya durgam pathastat kavayo vadante|| Wake up ! Get vigilent !! Approach The Right, Your Self !!! The path you tread upon in life is like a razor edge … in no time you would slip to the wrong ways, if you are not alert. Therefore … Be aware ! Be alert !! Be correct !!! Respects. Naga Narayana. ------------------------- Is there anything written against suicide ? Everything that is written in sanity is against suicide! The very life is designed against suicide!! Every gene in every cell of yours carries this message!!! Acknowledge the message. Understand the message. Experience the message. Receive the essence of wisdom from life. Respond to the life with wisdom. Resonate with the life as yourself. THAT IS JOY. There cannot be a room for any thoughts against the life in such JOY. Find IT. Seek IT. Be IT. This is my understanding I am blessed with from all our scriptures as well as life. Respects. Naga Narayana. > > > ------------------------------ -- Bhagwat Gita is not against killing or defending or resistance with or without force but is against HINSA or Reaction. This means, life and death in the form of killing others, or sacrifice (kurbaani) of soldiers for saving the mother land in war for struggle for freedom are AHINSA or Non Reaction. Arjun was explained this concept by Sri Krishna that the act of war in a situation when laws and order get deteriorated is a duty (kartavya) for Chhatria and it is swabhaav of Arjun that will respond it and not react it. Fire is duty bound to burn and this is its swabhaav. Water has different swabhaav and it is bound to act as per it. So the purity of swabhaav is not reactive but not delayed in responses, and accepts no restriction. Had Arjun not responded to call of war and surrendered meekly to bad governance (Dus Shaasan) and bad authority (Dur Yodhan) and Structure of Government serving them (Karna i.e., structure) those born of insensitive law and order (blind Dhrat Rashtra i.e., on which a nation i.e., Rashtra rests i.e., Dhrat), that would have been a HINSA and cowerdice and life of Arjun falling from its swabhaav. Suicide is escaping from ones own self, and this is failing attempt of getting out of situation. The impression will be carried over to next life or further future, and till the time one understands own swabhaav and responds it with its ability (purusharth). Gandhi was fasting very often and gets close to death, Jain muni also follow similar thing. But this is TAPASYA or testing of endurance to observe nature from a distance. These are not suicide or cowardice. Bhagwat Gita, in fact, begins with Kaparnya Dosho Pahatah Swabhaavah Prkshyami Twam Dharma Sammoodh Chetah That means, Arjun asking (pakshyami) Sri Krishna what to do when the swabhaav is beginning to fall (pahatah), and he gets diseased (dosho) with cowerdice of inaction (kaparnya). best regards K G(Krishna Gopal) -------------------------------- Loving Divine, Pranam. To best of my knowledge, the message in Gitaji is - it is ok to die fighting with the enemy but killing oneself is an 'upmrityu'. To do whatever it takes to protect oneself or the nation is not considered suicide, it is called scacrifying for greater interest. No, I have NOT clearly indicated that 'the Bhagwad Gita cannot provide answers to the social and political situations and problems of all times. Unfortunately, people want to talk about BG but don't want to implement any of it's teachings. If men, would curtail their desires to control the world, greed for material pleasure, his heightened ego, his indulgence in immoral sense pleasure, his tendencies to discriminate others and treat them as low life, and his delusional living, etc. as discussed in BG and other scriptures, the world would be lot better - women & other men, will not have to suffer...! Honestly who wants to follow the path shown by Lord? Everyone wants name & fame, earn more money, still others ideas and present them as their own to build their career, who really wants God? When the intentions are delusional, how to expect that they will understand God's message in BG? I had mentioned it before also that social transformation is possible only by individual transformation but who really wants to change? Please clarify you real issue! it sure will help. humble regards, always at Thy Divine Feet Manjula Patel -------------------------------- > > > You have clearly indicated that the Bhagwad Gita cannot > > > provide answers to the social and political situations and > > > problems of all times. Why should we follow the Bhagwad > > > Gita if it cannot solve the problems of Hindus? > > > Ashok T. Jaisinghani. > > > > > > ------------------------------ -- > - Loving Divine. Pranam. The following are all based on social & political situations and are not addressed in Bhagawat Gita. I have not run across any thing in Bhagawat Gita indicating committing suicide is ok. humble regards, always at Thy Holy Feet Manjula Patel ------------------------------- > > > What about killing one's self to escape rape, abduction, to save > > > life of king or leader in a battlefield, to escape from enemies > > that > > > may lead to torture and revealing Country's secrets ? > > > > > > Ashok T. Jaisinghani Dear Sadhika, Pranaam. Committing suicide means ending your body. Whats the use of ending up something(body) which is going to end itself anyway ? Instead bear it and align yourself with the purpose of your existence. Gitaji says-bear pain and pleasure as you bear cold and hot weather. As you said- " I " am fed up with my ... " body " . This implies that you are already aware of the fact that " I " am not " my body " . Gitaji;1:18 Then who am I ? Gitaji Chapter 1, 2 will explain you. Please first find out WHO AM I ? You are already at the higher state of consciousness where you know that you are not the body, please meditate more and contemplate on " who am I " . As you go deeper you will know that you are not your mental, emotional assumptions, you are not what the other people think of you and you are not what you think you are.You are not the sufferings, you are not the pain your body and mind is going through, you are not that mental emotional role you are playing everyday. Then who are you ? Please find out, its important. Every shaloka of Gitaji is full of answers. Read, re-read, contemplate, meditate. I will suggest reading Eckhart Tolle's books - " Power of now " and " A new earth " . He was thinking of ending his life but ultimately he got realization out of that. with lots of love, a sadhika Sadhna Karigar ------------------------------- What is suicide? Is it terminating one's association with the body-mind cluster or terminating one's association with oneself? Isopanishad declares that it is the later who are the suiciders (aatmahanah) though we ignorantly are obsessed with the former. Bhagavad Gita – the essence of all Upanishads – certainly deals with both. 1. Suicide – termination of one's association with the body-mind cluster One's attempt for cessation from the body-mind cluster is condemned throughout the Bhagavad Gita. All our miseries are nothing but symptoms of our frustration and disgust with what we are. What we are is generally determined with what we have. What we have is generally determined with what we can. What we can is generally determined with our physical and mental abilities. In other words, our day-to-day happiness is determined with the quality of the body- mind cluster we possess. That is the ignorance we happily harbor in our existential persistence. Therefore, every pain we experience is nothing but a hint of our frustration with our identity – body-mind cluster – in its core. Accordingly, we develop dreams of identities that we are not. Our lust for this dreamed identities grows stronger and stronger as our frustration with our actual identity increases increasing our disgust toward our current identity in return – it is a vicious circle. Gita is most vocal on this chaotic confusion we harbor e.g. Shreyan swadharmo vigunah paradharmat swanushthithat … The survival instinct imbedded in our existence – to run away from adversities – is turned to cowardice due to our wrong conditioning keeping us on the verge of escaping from any adverse situations at the very first instance. Escapism is in other words the agent of the suicide. Escaping from actions in its zenith becomes escaping from life as such. Very often people have tried to twist the concept of Nirvana relating it to suicide with me. My challenge to them is, " If you can quit your body without any effort, without any motivation or intention and without any assistance from anything including holding breath … that I say is Nirvana " . There cannot be a trace of any urge or purturbation at Nirvana. All associations are mitigated in spite of the physical association with the organic system. Therefore, the question of giving up the organic system can never arise at Nirvana since there is no organic system that such a soul cling on to in the first place. The identity dies in spite of the living. On the other hand, a suicide always ends a life with intense unfulfilled urge for an alien identity swarmed with perturbations. In fact, a suicider continues to " own " the identity that is being thrown away as well as the one that is dreamt after. Therefore, there is no real termination of association with the identity in such termination of life. In fact, all such associations are strengthened in the very attempt in spite of the physical sessation from the organic system. There is no question of giving up an identity at suicide since there is no faculty to exercise on such an act in the first place. Therefore, the individual identity exits stronger with heightened frustration having no more faculties to manipulate itself after the death. The identity never dies in spite of the death; in fact, it grows stronger in case of suicide, in particular. Most humans are perpetually in the act of suicide knowingly or unknowingly – trying to escape from situations, trying to hide their true identities, forging false relations in life etc. Gita, again, is quite strongly against any such suicidal attempt – inaction, running away from action e.g. Niyatam kuru karma tvam karma jyayohyakarmanah … The whole essence of Gita is the message " Fight! Do not give up!! " " Uttishthata! Jagrata!! Prapya varaannibodhata " as Kathopanishad puts it. 1. Suicide – termination of one's association with oneself As Ishopanishad puts it almost all humans are verily " aatmahanaah " – the self slayers, ones who have no clue of their true selves and the ones who do not dare to envision themselves in their lives – they prefer to live in pitch dark ignorance of themselves. It is true. Not knowing or insisting not to know anything is as good as the non- existence of that as far as they are concerned. If one does not know oneself, one's self is definitely slain within one's perception. In other words, one does not exist for oneself when one's existence is anything but oneself. You get this message in every verse of Bhagavad Gita. The whole Mahabharata war is to fight through all the elements of ignorance and inertia that try to separate one from oneself. The ignorant can never suicide from this perspective since they have never lived a life to give up one. On the other hand, the realized ones cannot see the death in the first place and hence live for ever. In fact, the ignorant are never born (Aja) since they never make any attempt to seek life; while, the realized seek life to realize that they are in fact Aja, the birthless (and hence deathless) since they are The Life. My understanding from Gita and all other scriptures regarding life, death and suicide is: One who lives can never die. One who covets life has to die. And, those who never lived would seek suicide. Respects. Naga Narayana. - Loving Divine, Pranam Here are few definitions: 1. the act of killing oneself deliberately: he tried to commit suicide 2. a person who kills himself or herself intentionally 3. the self-inflicted ruin of one's own career or future: such a cut would be political suicide OR The act of deliberately or intentionally taking one's own life. Suicidal behavior is any deliberate action that has a potentially life-threatening consequences, such as taking a drug overdose or deliberately crashing a car. The human act of self-inflicted, self-intentioned cessation. According to Freud, Suicide was murder turned around 180 degrees. A very poor response to a very bad day. OR A. Suicide is any form of self-killing, where self-killing is understood as acting in such a way as to bring about one's own death. B. Durkheim's definition of suicide: Suicide is the death resulting directly or indirectly from a positive or negative act of the victim himself, which he knows will produce this result. C. Another definition of suicide: X commits suicide if: X acts (or refrains form acting) in such a way as to bring about his own death. X intends by those actions to bring about his own death either because he wants his own death per se, or because he wants something which he thinks can be caused only by his death (not merely by the act which also causes his death as a foreseen but unintended consequence). Arjun was not willing to get killed bravely fighting the dharma yuddha (true kshatriya would die fighting to protect dharma) rather before even fight begins he had given up wanting to be killed (BG chapter 1 tells about it many times). This is a sin (paapa). He prefers begging over fighting the dharma yuddha! If Arjun would have wanted to die even unarmed truly fighting the war, Lord would not have to call him coward. Reading entire chapter 1 & 2 together will help understand the situation. Shri Krishna also explains the same thing in few slokas starting BG 2:31. humble regards, always at Thy Lotus Feet Manjula Patel ------------------------------ Pranam to all Sadhakas; Did Arjuna say that he wanted to commit suicide?? Where?? and When? In (1/46) Arjuna is ready to be killed (when unarmed) by the Kuravas. This is not suicide, though it may be suicidal in the end. In fact no Kshatriya worth his salt will think of suicide because nothing is more dear to him than a Dharma Yuddha which opens the gates of Heaven for him (2/31) Also a Kshtriya knows that if killed during a Dharma Yuddha, he will go straight to Heaven and if he survives he will enjoy life tothe fullest (2/37). Namaskar to all. Suhas Gogate - I feel Brother B.Sathyanarayan has put it in a very beautiful way. I too strongly think the same. Suicide is just trying to avoid one's karma, which is impossible, and has to be completed anyways! Love and Light Jacob - pranam what about the reverse of this. one kills others if they dont follow his path. like terrorists kill lots when they dont follow their suit. Pl. elaborate on geetaji. thanx raja gurdasani ---------------------------- -- Loving Divine, Pranam. Yes, Gitaji has mentioned about Arjun ready to commit suicide in BG 1:46. He was so dejected with the situation, he said to Krishna that it is better for me not to carry weapon or fight, rather let all equipped Kauravs kill me. The last sloka BG 1.47 says that after saying this Arjuna dropped his bow-arrows & sat down at the back seat of the chariott. Arjuna knew committing suicide is a sin so he finds an alternate way to get killed! Looking at his condition, Lord calls him cowered (BG 2:3). In BG 2:11, Krishna even becomes sarcastic. Arjuna continues with his depressive attitude & not wanting to face the situation (BG 2:9). Lord starts giving him advise why he should not kill himself or be upset over other bodies being killed BG 2:12. Also Krishna talks about what happens when people die in later chapters. When people die with unfulfilled desires, they have to be reborn. Nature wants them to learn the life lesson but by running away from it they are bound to face the situation over and over again until they learn and transcend themselves. So it is not good to commit suicide. I would suggest reading BG Chapter 1 & 2 thoroughly for better understanding. humble regards, always at Thy Holy Feet Manjula Patel - First let us understand that so called life and death _ how significant they are from the perspective of " SELF " and that of " GOD " . The correct answer is as insignificant as is our change of cloths_ Gita is relevant here.There are only three elements existing in this universe. JEEVA (Self), JAGDISH(God) and JAGAT(World including your body, mind, intellect and ego). Just as it is insignificant from Jeeva (Self) and Jagdish (God's) point of view , from Jagat (World's) point of view also they are not at all of any importance because the World changes, changes and does nothing except changes. A change for life is death and a change for death is life. Now come to " Suicide " . It is a running away from the reality. While Gita doesnot specifically refer about suicide but it is abundantly clear that it is an act of total stupidity and cowardice. Other Hindu Scriptures condemn this act in no uncertain terms. Where in fact is the need ever to get so upset? The punishment is " non entitlement of human life for eons and eons " You wasted the earlier life given to you. As simple as that. Vyas, N B Hare Krishna. I think that the right thing would be to stay alive until you die either by an accident or naturally, EVEN THOUGH you are in a vegetative state, because that way you'd be paying your karma, most probably a huge one!! Kind regards. Daniel Tkach Dear Sadaks, Why speak of Suicide when we are alive ? that is how to live peacefully and happily is what one needs to understand Thank you and best regards, Gokul Mehta ---------------------------- Dear Sadaks, Suicide is ones option to terminate body from functioning. Per my understanding, the soul after suicide remains in space until the time originaly alotted to a one on the 15th day of that baby in womb. The body and the soul with 5 kosas (5 layers of auras) comes to this earth with package of destiny which is based on it` s previous birth account of vasanas, karmas etc. As I understand, this soul hanging in space suffers worse than it was with body. The soul always carries along with it the kosas which has recorded it`s vasanas (impressions in the mind), acts, etc whether one dies naturally or suicide. The vasanas (impressions of the mind, desires, fancy imaginations, passioj) can be satisfied only with the equipment - body. The soul, now without body gets frustrated, being unable to satisfy it`s desires. Adi Sankara left his body and entered into a kings body for few days to gain certain knowledge. The soul can leave the body by yoga siddhi and reenter. By suicide one terminates the body before time span given to it. It is my understanding that the soul neither gets fresh body or goes to higher level, rather it suffers until life span given to it. So it is sinful to not do the karmas that was to one's account. Such a soul gets handicapped body after it`s life span ( with body and time without body). B.Sathyanarayan ------------------------------ Dear Sadhakas, We are all mentally committing suicide by not following the tenets of Vedas, Upanishads etc., hurting other people's feelings for our own physical betterment. Physical suicide is also on account of " Prarabdha Karma " , if one believes in the same. About this, much has been said in Gita. G.Vaidyanathan ------------------------------ Dear all, In democracy, suicide is permitted by euthanasia and legislation in EXTREME cases of body in absolutely unbearable condition. At times, suicide is assisted by husband, wife or relative ot of sheer pity and terminate suffering, or vegetative condition from paraplagia, where only moving part of person is his eyelids, being paralysed from neck downwards. At times sick people have travelled to other countries to get assisted suicide. Dr.Kevrokian also known as Dr. Death had number of clients, before he wasd stopped. Ramesh Jhalla ------------------------ Dear Sadhakas, Namaste! I don't know what Gita has said on this one, but some of us will know it and answer. my understanding is that it is our innate/intrinsic nature to exist and continue living in any condition. There are many proofs of this all around us when we see even terminally ill people would like to survive. It is just a natural instinct built in by God, the Intelligence itself! Suicide is thus, an unnatural act originating from dispairs, acute depression, or all such imaginations or ideas breeding fear in one! To end the body by suicide is an act of Ego, who wants to escape from responsibility causing pains to those loved ones left behind. Such a person only thinks of himself/herself and the pains he/she cannot endure, without thinking others who might be his/her dependents. This is acting very veryselfishly. Suicide is also a missed opportunity to hope for the best and realize Truth which has been discovered by some while facing such acute crisis! If one has complete trust in God and thereby in oneself, one cannot commit such an act. One goes on living inspite of problems! A man of wisdom will never commit suicide. Such a person would always know that to end the suffering, Life is a better alternative to suicide. Namaskaras... Pratap (Pratap Bhatt) -------------------------------- This is my humble opinion. In Gita, it is not explicitly mentioned 'not to commit suicide' but eloborates on the concept of death in second chapter when Arjuna is wrried about killing his own relatives. Gita states that death can be considered similarly as : as the soul taking different births and going thro the cycle of life and death similar to a person shunning the old clothes and wearing the new ones. There is no death for soul but states abour death of body only, which comes from earth and becomes one with earth as the soul takes a different journey in different body. Also, Gita talks about karma yoga (concept of fulfilling your duties :whatever it may be by choice or circumstances and whatever you think ur duty is at that time without thinking/expecting fruits for any actions at all.). If one understand this in deep, he/she also understands that there is no worry in life about anything since whatever it is, you can just offer /surrender that complete activity onto that Supreme. If one is able to surrender to that God, he is free of worries/stress/depression /etc and then one will will be able to understand that there is no need to commit suicide at all. Regards, Bharathi ------------------------------ We all are commiting suicide everday. To jump before train, or fast unto death is conventional definition but if one is drinking alcohol, eating tobacco or living a diseased life style, these are all known and voluntary action of self-destruction. Gita only says about life and death as manifestation of certain appearance as per our true nature (svabhaav). Actually, the real person does not die and comes back again to know the purpose of life rather than rejecting it. Regards K G (Krishna Gopal) -------------------------------- Thank you for your duty, be blessed by all Gods, that they fill your heart with love and trust in the power of Shiva . please if possible, send me more about this subject. I am fed up with my western woman hindu body. Very hard penance OM EIN KALINK CHAMUNDAYE VITCHE OM shiva shakti shanti shanti ---------------------- GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: 1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify their doubts related to Gitaji shalokas. Therefore, responses which further clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be posted. 2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to substantiate your response. 3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas 4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting sadhaka's time. 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only. 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other organizations. 7. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone number, address etc. 8. Please do not address the response to a particular individual since the message is going to the entire group. 9. Due to the large readership, all responses may not be posted. 10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if content is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the group. 11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use to Sanskrit words only, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit bracketed wherever possible. MODERATOR Ram Ram Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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