The truly great men remain in oblivion. Please share thoughts

[Guest guest]

I am confused about this verse in the Gita. The popular meaning of

this verse seems to be..

 

" whatever ways in which a great man acts, those ways are followed by

the rest of the people.

Whatever standards are set by the great one, the world takes up and

follows. "

 

This seems to be an idealized interpretation of the verse. If this

interpretation is correct, how do we explain today's scenario when

petty politicians command great unflinched following? Criminals rule

the roost in many states/countries, by virtue of the power given to

them by popular mandate in an elected democracy. Oftentimes it's

satirically said, the masses are asses to follow such inept and

corrupt leaders. The truly great men remain in oblivion. Please share

your thoughts on this refering to Gita wherever possible.

 

Regards,

Hari

(Hari Krishnan)

 

---------------------------

The following are the guidelines for Gita-Talk discussions.

 

GUIDELINES FOR POSTING A QUESTION:

 

1. The group is focused on the Holy Gitaji and clarifying any doubts,

therefore only questions that pertain to Gitaji will be posted in the

future.

 

2. Please restrict the number of questions asked to only one at a time.

 

3. Making reference of Gitaji shloka is compulsory - at least once in

the question.

 

4. Please be specific with the question, relating the practical

difficulties being faced by the Sadhak. Specifics around, where is the

sadhak facing obstacles in his spiritual journey, in the teachings of

Geetaji, in principles laid down by Swamiji or other Mahatamas are

highly recommended to be included.

 

5. General questions will not be considered for future posting.

e.g. " suicide " " solving world hunger " etc.

 

GUIDELINES FOR POSTING A RESPONSE:

 

1. The group is focused on the Holy Gitaji, therefore, only responses

which further clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will be posted.

 

2. Making reference of Gitaji shloka is highly encouraged - at least

once in the response. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other

scriptures to substantiate your response.

 

3. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting

sadhaka's time. Under no circustance the answer should exceed say one

page at the most (500 words or so).

 

4. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the

extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas

 

5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only.

 

6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other organizations.

 

7. Complete reproduction of texts from any book is strongly

discouraged, however references may be made of the book or author(but

not links to other sites).

 

8. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone

number, address etc.

 

9. Please do not address the response to a particular individual since

the message is going to the entire group.

 

10. Due to the large readership, only those responses will be posted

which are in line with the general philosophy of taking Shrimad

Bhagavad Gita as the reference.

 

11. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if content is

unclear for distribution or not directly related to the question being

asked.

 

12. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth,

westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use of only

Sanskrit words, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit

bracketed wherever possible.

 

MODERATOR

Ram Ram

[Guest guest]

Hari Om

Re Gitaji 3:21

Right you are. But times have changed. The law remains the same.

Whatever " great men " do, ordinary people follow. No doubt. But

Unfortunately the definition of " great men " has undergone change in

common man's mind. Because of importance of wealth,position etc in

the Antahkarana (mind stuff) you have started considering wealthy

people and Ministers ,etc as " great

Men " and have started following them.

 

The law operates- as is evidenced by the fact that there is

automatic circulation of tax evasion

Methods etc which evasions are done by leaders in industry or

business. The conduct of wealthy people automatically spreads

without any conscious effort. The law operates-the people have

changed for worse! Kaliyuga!

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

-------------------------------

Hariji,

You have asked a good question. Shri Vishnu(Krishna)

meant example set by Noble souls are followed for long times.

Needless to say residents of Lanka were followers of Ravana and were

destroyed.

So were the followers of Kansa.

Both Ravana and Kansa had great following in their Kingdoms.

However today, we follow the examples (or at least teach our kids)

to follow examples of Shri Rama and Shri Krishna and not Ravana or

Kansa.

When the Lord is addressing he is speaking the Truth that is one

that is sustained over time.

Aberrant behavior or example of aberrant behavior does not last long

or wide in the Human Populace

 

Gopal Sharma

 

 

 

--------------------------------

Priy sadhak

 

Pranams,

 

Before applying these verses to todays scenerio one must understand

what the Great man is? Great is not by power or post but it as to

how selfless the person is? Saints with selfless preachings to

society are great ones. The society is today miscontemplating the

noun Great man. It thinks great politicians, Moneyholders, cinema

actors, famous players. But are they selfless, egoless, this is to

be considered before following their suit.

 

Thanx,

 

Raja

(Raja Gurdasani)

--------------------------------

The message of the Gita is basically meant for " Mumukhu " , the seeker

of liberation. One who reaches such a ripe stage on the path

always seeks to be ideal. it is to him the verse applies, not to all

and sundry.

pmr

Prof. P Mallikarjuna Rao

--------------------------------

Gita gyan is meant for the seeker & therefore first and foremost

thing for him/her is to " accept " through " own " anubhava.

 

The greatness for " blind " & " selfish " ones has little or no meaning

and therefore it would for a true-seeker of the ghyana is always as

an observation and just-awareness.

 

Should we be part of such a lot ? The choice is our to decide upon.

 

Best Regards

Kishin Chandiramani

 

--------------------------------

It is simple. Great men here means men of unfathomable knowledge,with

a clear vision about the ways of life,self controlled, wishing every

one good, no ambitions, shunning wealth and leading a simple life.

Such men will never do any thing wrong. and what ever they do will

always be for the good of men and the world. That is it.

The leaders of modern days, referred to, are not thought of in the

verse. They are in no way great men . They can be classified as

corrupt loafers. I hope this clarifies the matter.

Examples of great men who should be imitated are :-

A Vashishta, A Vyasa, A vishwamitra, A Buddha, A Rama, A krishna,

and among mundane men, A Balagangadhar, A Mahatma Gandhi, A

Ramakrishna Paramahansa, Vivekananda, Bhagavan Ramana.

How do the present day corrupt politicians come under this category?

They are to be shunned. We cannot equate the Great Men mentioned in

the Gita Verse with the present day Politicians. There is no

question of imitating them.

 

RAMACHANDER.

 

--------------------------------

 

Hari to know two words from Bhagwat Gita

 

Raja and Rakshash both are defined in the Bhagwat Gita. Raja is not

ruler or king, as commonly misunderstood. And Rakshash is not a

dangerous animal like creature as it is commonly misunderstood.

 

Raja is from guna of Rajas (passion). Rajas means dust or raj. A

raja is dust of the truth or sat guna or the god. As dust has

property to spread itself, Raja is role model and people follow

his/her character by understanding it. This understanding process of

people to find a Raja or a role model for them is called Pragya and

in broken sanskrit was called praja. The raja thus is praja pati or

the object of understanding. Gandhi, was a Raja because he was

followed by people in voluntary way, without any authority and

without incentive. Ram is a Raja as he continued to guide and

inspire our lives from time immorial.

 

Rakshash is protector or defense or security agency. Rakshash belong

to Tamo (ignorance) guna. They are not raja but security people to

be at the gate in role of dogs. The Rakshash are alert all the time

and therefore being unpredictable (ASUR) is a desirable quality for

them. All government and police are Rakshash and therefore they are

unpreditable (ASUR). The Rakshash is not bad but when the protector

becomes harmful like Rawana to protectee, its value system is

compromised, and it gets killed.

 

Regards

K G

(Krishna Gopal)

---

We have to interpret this verse in a proper context. This has been

said to reinforce the need even for men of great virtue to perform

all actions as per shastric injunctions and not abandon any even

though they may not have to perform them because of their stature.

The society will be looking for guidance from these people. If they

become dishonest, the society will come to the conclusion that it

was also right for them to do so.

 

This is what is happening at present. Corrupt politicians become a

symbol for others to follow and hence their large followers. If they

had displayed honesty and integrity, they would have helped to

create a society where honesty and integrity would be held at a high

esteem.

 

It proves totally the validity of the verse in every sense.

 

This is my humble view.

 

G Rangarajan

---

 

1. " GREAT MEN " in the days of Bhagwat Geetha, were the learned

Rishis and Sages, who were respected even by the rulers of the areas

and their advice was invariably sought for in every action, be it

political or economic decisions in the inteof the Country.

 

2. Politicians are not " Great Men " in my eyes. I will leave it at

that ..... Who can learn morals from them?

 

3. In today's World, there are very few " Great Men " of knowledge who

could advice people in full devotion to their duty.

 

Democracy as it is followed today is flawed and chooses leaders by

mobocracy and money power, and intelligentsia do not stand a chance

to win against such manipulators.

 

kesava pillai

 

, " sadhak_insight "

<sadhak_insight wrote:

>

> I am confused about this verse in the Gita. The popular meaning of

> this verse seems to be..

>

> " whatever ways in which a great man acts, those ways are followed

by

> the rest of the people.

> Whatever standards are set by the great one, the world takes up and

> follows. "

>

> This seems to be an idealized interpretation of the verse. If this

> interpretation is correct, how do we explain today's scenario when

> petty politicians command great unflinched following? Criminals

rule

> the roost in many states/countries, by virtue of the power given to

> them by popular mandate in an elected democracy. Oftentimes it's

> satirically said, the masses are asses to follow such inept and

> corrupt leaders. The truly great men remain in oblivion. Please

share

> your thoughts on this refering to Gita wherever possible.

>

> Regards,

> Hari

> (Hari Krishnan)

>

> ---------------------------

> The following are the guidelines for Gita-Talk discussions.

>

> GUIDELINES FOR POSTING A QUESTION:

>

> 1. The group is focused on the Holy Gitaji and clarifying any

doubts,

> therefore only questions that pertain to Gitaji will be posted in

the

> future.

>

> 2. Please restrict the number of questions asked to only one at a

time.

>

> 3. Making reference of Gitaji shloka is compulsory - at least once

in

> the question.

>

> 4. Please be specific with the question, relating the practical

> difficulties being faced by the Sadhak. Specifics around, where is

the

> sadhak facing obstacles in his spiritual journey, in the teachings

of

> Geetaji, in principles laid down by Swamiji or other Mahatamas are

> highly recommended to be included.

>

> 5. General questions will not be considered for future posting.

> e.g. " suicide " " solving world hunger " etc.

>

> GUIDELINES FOR POSTING A RESPONSE:

>

> 1. The group is focused on the Holy Gitaji, therefore, only

responses

> which further clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will be posted.

>

> 2. Making reference of Gitaji shloka is highly encouraged - at

least

> once in the response. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or

other

> scriptures to substantiate your response.

>

> 3. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting

> sadhaka's time. Under no circustance the answer should exceed say

one

> page at the most (500 words or so).

>

> 4. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the

> extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas

>

> 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only.

>

> 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other

organizations.

>

> 7. Complete reproduction of texts from any book is strongly

> discouraged, however references may be made of the book or author

(but

> not links to other sites).

>

> 8. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone

> number, address etc.

>

> 9. Please do not address the response to a particular individual

since

> the message is going to the entire group.

>

> 10. Due to the large readership, only those responses will be

posted

> which are in line with the general philosophy of taking Shrimad

> Bhagavad Gita as the reference.

>

> 11. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if

content is

> unclear for distribution or not directly related to the question

being

> asked.

>

> 12. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth,

> westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use of only

> Sanskrit words, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit

> bracketed wherever possible.

>

> MODERATOR

> Ram Ram

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

 

All responses given by fellow sadhakas, together, capture the essence

of this verse 3:21.

 

However, the response of Rangarajanji captures the essence of the

verse when seen within the context of verse before and after this

verse.

 

Essentially those are truly great people who act in very responsible

ways in the society and guide people waiting for such guidance to

live a meaningful life. As we all know most people have to be led.

Greatness of God works as the Light through people of wisdom. Having

acquired Self-Knowledge or realization of their true nature being

Atman, they need not even act. Saints and sages are such examples,

not the political leaders in general.

 

They act just to serve people by guiding them to righteousness to

live a life of happiness, free of conflict.

 

Greatness or leadership doesn't depend at all on the number of

people, however large may be the following of those leaders, if

people they lead are misled to their own benefits!

 

As we have also seen such leaders are not really happy because their

happiness depends on so many things and people they try to manipulate

ultimately bring their own downfall.

 

Namaskars.. Pratap

 

 

------------------------------

 

Ravana and Kansa were great too but only when alive.

 

Krishna message is one for those who remain great after death.

 

Remember that greatness is of the Atma not the body.

 

Anil bhanot

 

 

Jai Sri Krishna,

 

Though I have little knowledge of Gita ji but what ever I have read

it inspires you to leave your ego and be a part of The Great Krishna

ji. Once we realise that HE is the supreme controller of everything

in this universe it is a humbling experience.

 

I have nothing against preachers with large following, but it is a

natural question which comes to my mind and I would appreciate very

much if you can share with me insights from Gita. Does Gita have a

statement about preachers who project and often even declare

themselves to be like Bhagawan or Sadguru with a large following.

What category do they belong to, as per the Gita ?

A true believer.

RP Shahi

 

 

, " sadhak_insight "

<sadhak_insight wrote:

>

> Hari Om

> Re Gitaji 3:21

> Right you are. But times have changed. The law remains the same.

> Whatever " great men " do, ordinary people follow. No doubt. But

> Unfortunately the definition of " great men " has undergone change in

> common man's mind. Because of importance of wealth,position etc in

> the Antahkarana (mind stuff) you have started considering wealthy

> people and Ministers ,etc as " great

> Men " and have started following them.

>

> The law operates- as is evidenced by the fact that there is

> automatic circulation of tax evasion

> Methods etc which evasions are done by leaders in industry or

> business. The conduct of wealthy people automatically spreads

> without any conscious effort. The law operates-the people have

> changed for worse! Kaliyuga!

>

> Jai Shree Krishna

>

> Vyas N B

> -------------------------------

> Hariji,

> You have asked a good question. Shri Vishnu(Krishna)

> meant example set by Noble souls are followed for long times.

> Needless to say residents of Lanka were followers of Ravana and

were

> destroyed.

> So were the followers of Kansa.

> Both Ravana and Kansa had great following in their Kingdoms.

> However today, we follow the examples (or at least teach our kids)

> to follow examples of Shri Rama and Shri Krishna and not Ravana or

> Kansa.

> When the Lord is addressing he is speaking the Truth that is one

> that is sustained over time.

> Aberrant behavior or example of aberrant behavior does not last

long

> or wide in the Human Populace

>

> Gopal Sharma

>

>

>

> --------------------------------

> Priy sadhak

>

> Pranams,

>

> Before applying these verses to todays scenerio one must understand

> what the Great man is? Great is not by power or post but it as to

> how selfless the person is? Saints with selfless preachings to

> society are great ones. The society is today miscontemplating the

> noun Great man. It thinks great politicians, Moneyholders, cinema

> actors, famous players. But are they selfless, egoless, this is to

> be considered before following their suit.

>

> Thanx,

>

> Raja

> (Raja Gurdasani)

> --------------------------------

> The message of the Gita is basically meant for " Mumukhu " , the

seeker

> of liberation. One who reaches such a ripe stage on the path

> always seeks to be ideal. it is to him the verse applies, not to

all

> and sundry.

> pmr

> Prof. P Mallikarjuna Rao

> --------------------------------

> Gita gyan is meant for the seeker & therefore first and foremost

> thing for him/her is to " accept " through " own " anubhava.

>

> The greatness for " blind " & " selfish " ones has little or no

meaning

> and therefore it would for a true-seeker of the ghyana is always as

> an observation and just-awareness.

>

> Should we be part of such a lot ? The choice is our to decide upon.

>

> Best Regards

> Kishin Chandiramani

>

> --------------------------------

> It is simple. Great men here means men of unfathomable

knowledge,with

> a clear vision about the ways of life,self controlled, wishing every

> one good, no ambitions, shunning wealth and leading a simple life.

> Such men will never do any thing wrong. and what ever they do will

> always be for the good of men and the world. That is it.

> The leaders of modern days, referred to, are not thought of in the

> verse. They are in no way great men . They can be classified as

> corrupt loafers. I hope this clarifies the matter.

> Examples of great men who should be imitated are :-

> A Vashishta, A Vyasa, A vishwamitra, A Buddha, A Rama, A krishna,

> and among mundane men, A Balagangadhar, A Mahatma Gandhi, A

> Ramakrishna Paramahansa, Vivekananda, Bhagavan Ramana.

> How do the present day corrupt politicians come under this

category?

> They are to be shunned. We cannot equate the Great Men mentioned in

> the Gita Verse with the present day Politicians. There is no

> question of imitating them.

>

> RAMACHANDER.

>

> --------------------------------

>

> Hari to know two words from Bhagwat Gita

>

> Raja and Rakshash both are defined in the Bhagwat Gita. Raja is not

> ruler or king, as commonly misunderstood. And Rakshash is not a

> dangerous animal like creature as it is commonly misunderstood.

>

> Raja is from guna of Rajas (passion). Rajas means dust or raj. A

> raja is dust of the truth or sat guna or the god. As dust has

> property to spread itself, Raja is role model and people follow

> his/her character by understanding it. This understanding process

of

> people to find a Raja or a role model for them is called Pragya and

> in broken sanskrit was called praja. The raja thus is praja pati or

> the object of understanding. Gandhi, was a Raja because he was

> followed by people in voluntary way, without any authority and

> without incentive. Ram is a Raja as he continued to guide and

> inspire our lives from time immorial.

>

> Rakshash is protector or defense or security agency. Rakshash

belong

> to Tamo (ignorance) guna. They are not raja but security people to

> be at the gate in role of dogs. The Rakshash are alert all the time

> and therefore being unpredictable (ASUR) is a desirable quality for

> them. All government and police are Rakshash and therefore they are

> unpreditable (ASUR). The Rakshash is not bad but when the protector

> becomes harmful like Rawana to protectee, its value system is

> compromised, and it gets killed.

>

> Regards

> K G

> (Krishna Gopal)

> --

-

> We have to interpret this verse in a proper context. This has been

> said to reinforce the need even for men of great virtue to perform

> all actions as per shastric injunctions and not abandon any even

> though they may not have to perform them because of their stature.

> The society will be looking for guidance from these people. If they

> become dishonest, the society will come to the conclusion that it

> was also right for them to do so.

>

> This is what is happening at present. Corrupt politicians become a

> symbol for others to follow and hence their large followers. If

they

> had displayed honesty and integrity, they would have helped to

> create a society where honesty and integrity would be held at a

high

> esteem.

>

> It proves totally the validity of the verse in every sense.

>

> This is my humble view.

>

> G Rangarajan

> --

-

>

> 1. " GREAT MEN " in the days of Bhagwat Geetha, were the learned

> Rishis and Sages, who were respected even by the rulers of the

areas

> and their advice was invariably sought for in every action, be it

> political or economic decisions in the inteof the Country.

>

> 2. Politicians are not " Great Men " in my eyes. I will leave it at

> that ..... Who can learn morals from them?

>

> 3. In today's World, there are very few " Great Men " of knowledge

who

> could advice people in full devotion to their duty.

>

> Democracy as it is followed today is flawed and chooses leaders by

> mobocracy and money power, and intelligentsia do not stand a chance

> to win against such manipulators.

>

> kesava pillai

>

> , " sadhak_insight "

> <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> >

> > I am confused about this verse in the Gita. The popular meaning of

> > this verse seems to be..

> >

> > " whatever ways in which a great man acts, those ways are followed

> by

> > the rest of the people.

> > Whatever standards are set by the great one, the world takes up

and

> > follows. "

> >

> > This seems to be an idealized interpretation of the verse. If this

> > interpretation is correct, how do we explain today's scenario when

> > petty politicians command great unflinched following? Criminals

> rule

> > the roost in many states/countries, by virtue of the power given

to

> > them by popular mandate in an elected democracy. Oftentimes it's

> > satirically said, the masses are asses to follow such inept and

> > corrupt leaders. The truly great men remain in oblivion. Please

> share

> > your thoughts on this refering to Gita wherever possible.

> >

> > Regards,

> > Hari

> > (Hari Krishnan)

> >

> > ---------------------------

> > The following are the guidelines for Gita-Talk discussions.

> >

> > GUIDELINES FOR POSTING A QUESTION:

> >

> > 1. The group is focused on the Holy Gitaji and clarifying any

> doubts,

> > therefore only questions that pertain to Gitaji will be posted in

> the

> > future.

> >

> > 2. Please restrict the number of questions asked to only one at a

> time.

> >

> > 3. Making reference of Gitaji shloka is compulsory - at least

once

> in

> > the question.

> >

> > 4. Please be specific with the question, relating the practical

> > difficulties being faced by the Sadhak. Specifics around, where

is

> the

> > sadhak facing obstacles in his spiritual journey, in the

teachings

> of

> > Geetaji, in principles laid down by Swamiji or other Mahatamas are

> > highly recommended to be included.

> >

> > 5. General questions will not be considered for future posting.

> > e.g. " suicide " " solving world hunger " etc.

> >

> > GUIDELINES FOR POSTING A RESPONSE:

> >

> > 1. The group is focused on the Holy Gitaji, therefore, only

> responses

> > which further clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will be posted.

> >

> > 2. Making reference of Gitaji shloka is highly encouraged - at

> least

> > once in the response. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or

> other

> > scriptures to substantiate your response.

> >

> > 3. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting

> > sadhaka's time. Under no circustance the answer should exceed say

> one

> > page at the most (500 words or so).

> >

> > 4. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the

> > extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas

> >

> > 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only.

> >

> > 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other

> organizations.

> >

> > 7. Complete reproduction of texts from any book is strongly

> > discouraged, however references may be made of the book or author

> (but

> > not links to other sites).

> >

> > 8. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone

> > number, address etc.

> >

> > 9. Please do not address the response to a particular individual

> since

> > the message is going to the entire group.

> >

> > 10. Due to the large readership, only those responses will be

> posted

> > which are in line with the general philosophy of taking Shrimad

> > Bhagavad Gita as the reference.

> >

> > 11. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if

> content is

> > unclear for distribution or not directly related to the question

> being

> > asked.

> >

> > 12. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth,

> > westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use of only

> > Sanskrit words, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit

> > bracketed wherever possible.

> >

> > MODERATOR

> > Ram Ram

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hari Om

 

Re Saadhak Shahi's query on the subject

 

Those who call themselves to be Bhagwan or Sadgurus are most

certainly " anti God " . A real Guru drives the followers towards God

not towards himself. A God realised soul shall never pronounce

himself to be God. Those who pronounce themselves to be God

are " anti God " and are the people who are begging for respect and

worship. They are inferior to the most ordinary beggars! Be sure on

that!

 

Re Saadhak Sahi " s Query (Contd with Gitaji in focus)

 

As far as Geetaji is concerned on the subject- there does not appear

to be direct reference for such people. In " Uttarkaand " of Ramayana

Tulsidaasji Maharaj refers about such " paakhandi " Gurus. But there

are enough references indirectly in Geetaji from where we can draw

inferences. Consider the qualities of " Siddha Bhakta " as deciphered

out in Ch 12:13 to 12:19. Or consider the qualities of

even " stithapragya " (A karma yogi with settled intellect) enumerated

in Chapter 2:71. These so called self pronounced Gods or Gurus might

not have any qualities enumerated therein- for example how many

among them are " santustam " (satisfied) or " anapekshah " (desireless)

or " shubhashubh parityaagi " (renouncers of both good and bad)

or " aniketah " (unmindful of abode).

 

They are publishing life sized photographs of themselves,they are

calling themselves to be the mediums which you should choose should

you want to reach God, they expect you to garland them, they keep

donation boxes in the meetings so that you may part with your money,

they want you to worship them, they want you to respect them, they

want you to do their jaijaikaar,they have terms on which you can

become their disciples,they have magazines publishing in which you

are welcome to advertise and - HOW THEY ARE DESIRELESS?

Even if the faintest of desires is prevalent in you ,you cant reach

Godhood- irrespective of whether you chose Karma Yoga or Jnana Yoga

or Bhakti Yoga! Geetaji is abundantly clear on the subject. What

desires they are supposed to have -once they are God themselves? Why

they should advertise their presence? Now that they are equal to God

where is the need for them to open ashrams? They should be happy

within themselves ! How they have reached Godhood? Did anyone state

that? So many Gurus are existing in this country, how many of them

have given to you the steps which you should take to reach God?

 

The real GOD REALISED SOUL which the country has produced, in the

last century was Param Shraddheya Swamiji Shri Ramsukhdasji Maharaj.

Before that Sethji Jaidayalji Goenka realised God. Now consider

their life with the life of so called Gurus or Gods ! Swamiji never

allowed himself to be photographed, he never touched money, he never

allowed himself to be worshipped,there was a ban for keeping

donation boxes at the places where his discourses were to be held,

he never touched a woman after childhood, he never requested any one

to donate for any purpose,in his meetings no one was permitted to

clap or say jaijaikaar,he never allowed anyone to touch his feet...

He was God realised soul! He never looked at the world for getting

something out of it! He was God realised soul! He was desireless!!

Not these self proclaimed Gods!

 

Saadhaks should be beware of such jokers. In Kaliyuga such drama or

chamatkar producing jokers will be in abundance. They will be

committing heinous crimes of preventing saadhaks from fulfilling the

purpose of the human life. They will misguide them and snatch away

their moneys. They will arouse the chamatkaar witnessing curiosity

in the saadhaks and in the end will mislead them to disaster. They

are going to be in plenty - as Kaliyuga is friendly to such culprits.

 

The real Guru ,according to Swamiji, is your CONSCIENCE! Whenever

there will be a need of Guru or guidance , if you are a genuine

Saadhak, be certain that without making any efforts by you , the

Guru will come to you! Guru may come to you in the form of a child

or stranger or in any form, but he will change you for the better.

The real Guru is " KRISHNA " .

 

He is the Guru of the world- " KRISHANAM VANDE JAGADGURUM "

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

 

 

, " sadhak_insight "

<sadhak_insight wrote:

>

> Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

>

> All responses given by fellow sadhakas, together, capture the

essence

> of this verse 3:21.

>

> However, the response of Rangarajanji captures the essence of the

> verse when seen within the context of verse before and after this

> verse.

>

> Essentially those are truly great people who act in very

responsible

> ways in the society and guide people waiting for such guidance to

> live a meaningful life. As we all know most people have to be led.

> Greatness of God works as the Light through people of wisdom.

Having

> acquired Self-Knowledge or realization of their true nature being

> Atman, they need not even act. Saints and sages are such examples,

> not the political leaders in general.

>

> They act just to serve people by guiding them to righteousness to

> live a life of happiness, free of conflict.

>

> Greatness or leadership doesn't depend at all on the number of

> people, however large may be the following of those leaders, if

> people they lead are misled to their own benefits!

>

> As we have also seen such leaders are not really happy because

their

> happiness depends on so many things and people they try to

manipulate

> ultimately bring their own downfall.

>

> Namaskars.. Pratap

>

>

> ------------------------------

>

> Ravana and Kansa were great too but only when alive.

>

> Krishna message is one for those who remain great after death.

>

> Remember that greatness is of the Atma not the body.

>

> Anil bhanot

>

>

> Jai Sri Krishna,

>

> Though I have little knowledge of Gita ji but what ever I have read

> it inspires you to leave your ego and be a part of The Great

Krishna

> ji. Once we realise that HE is the supreme controller of everything

> in this universe it is a humbling experience.

>

> I have nothing against preachers with large following, but it is a

> natural question which comes to my mind and I would appreciate very

> much if you can share with me insights from Gita. Does Gita have a

> statement about preachers who project and often even declare

> themselves to be like Bhagawan or Sadguru with a large following.

> What category do they belong to, as per the Gita ?

> A true believer.

> RP Shahi

>

>

> , " sadhak_insight "

> <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> >

> > Hari Om

> > Re Gitaji 3:21

> > Right you are. But times have changed. The law remains the same.

> > Whatever " great men " do, ordinary people follow. No doubt. But

> > Unfortunately the definition of " great men " has undergone change

in

> > common man's mind. Because of importance of wealth,position etc

in

> > the Antahkarana (mind stuff) you have started considering wealthy

> > people and Ministers ,etc as " great

> > Men " and have started following them.

> >

> > The law operates- as is evidenced by the fact that there is

> > automatic circulation of tax evasion

> > Methods etc which evasions are done by leaders in industry or

> > business. The conduct of wealthy people automatically spreads

> > without any conscious effort. The law operates-the people have

> > changed for worse! Kaliyuga!

> >

> > Jai Shree Krishna

> >

> > Vyas N B

> > -------------------------------

> > Hariji,

> > You have asked a good question. Shri Vishnu(Krishna)

> > meant example set by Noble souls are followed for long times.

> > Needless to say residents of Lanka were followers of Ravana and

> were

> > destroyed.

> > So were the followers of Kansa.

> > Both Ravana and Kansa had great following in their Kingdoms.

> > However today, we follow the examples (or at least teach our

kids)

> > to follow examples of Shri Rama and Shri Krishna and not Ravana

or

> > Kansa.

> > When the Lord is addressing he is speaking the Truth that is one

> > that is sustained over time.

> > Aberrant behavior or example of aberrant behavior does not last

> long

> > or wide in the Human Populace

> >

> > Gopal Sharma

> >

> >

> >

> > --------------------------------

> > Priy sadhak

> >

> > Pranams,

> >

> > Before applying these verses to todays scenerio one must

understand

> > what the Great man is? Great is not by power or post but it as to

> > how selfless the person is? Saints with selfless preachings to

> > society are great ones. The society is today miscontemplating the

> > noun Great man. It thinks great politicians, Moneyholders, cinema

> > actors, famous players. But are they selfless, egoless, this is

to

> > be considered before following their suit.

> >

> > Thanx,

> >

> > Raja

> > (Raja Gurdasani)

> > --------------------------------

> > The message of the Gita is basically meant for " Mumukhu " , the

> seeker

> > of liberation. One who reaches such a ripe stage on the path

> > always seeks to be ideal. it is to him the verse applies, not to

> all

> > and sundry.

> > pmr

> > Prof. P Mallikarjuna Rao

> > --------------------------------

> > Gita gyan is meant for the seeker & therefore first and foremost

> > thing for him/her is to " accept " through " own " anubhava.

> >

> > The greatness for " blind " & " selfish " ones has little or no

> meaning

> > and therefore it would for a true-seeker of the ghyana is always

as

> > an observation and just-awareness.

> >

> > Should we be part of such a lot ? The choice is our to decide

upon.

> >

> > Best Regards

> > Kishin Chandiramani

> >

> > --------------------------------

> > It is simple. Great men here means men of unfathomable

> knowledge,with

> > a clear vision about the ways of life,self controlled, wishing

every

> > one good, no ambitions, shunning wealth and leading a simple

life.

> > Such men will never do any thing wrong. and what ever they do

will

> > always be for the good of men and the world. That is it.

> > The leaders of modern days, referred to, are not thought of in

the

> > verse. They are in no way great men . They can be classified as

> > corrupt loafers. I hope this clarifies the matter.

> > Examples of great men who should be imitated are :-

> > A Vashishta, A Vyasa, A vishwamitra, A Buddha, A Rama, A krishna,

> > and among mundane men, A Balagangadhar, A Mahatma Gandhi, A

> > Ramakrishna Paramahansa, Vivekananda, Bhagavan Ramana.

> > How do the present day corrupt politicians come under this

> category?

> > They are to be shunned. We cannot equate the Great Men mentioned

in

> > the Gita Verse with the present day Politicians. There is no

> > question of imitating them.

> >

> > RAMACHANDER.

> >

> > --------------------------------

> >

> > Hari to know two words from Bhagwat Gita

> >

> > Raja and Rakshash both are defined in the Bhagwat Gita. Raja is

not

> > ruler or king, as commonly misunderstood. And Rakshash is not a

> > dangerous animal like creature as it is commonly misunderstood.

> >

> > Raja is from guna of Rajas (passion). Rajas means dust or raj. A

> > raja is dust of the truth or sat guna or the god. As dust has

> > property to spread itself, Raja is role model and people follow

> > his/her character by understanding it. This understanding process

> of

> > people to find a Raja or a role model for them is called Pragya

and

> > in broken sanskrit was called praja. The raja thus is praja pati

or

> > the object of understanding. Gandhi, was a Raja because he was

> > followed by people in voluntary way, without any authority and

> > without incentive. Ram is a Raja as he continued to guide and

> > inspire our lives from time immorial.

> >

> > Rakshash is protector or defense or security agency. Rakshash

> belong

> > to Tamo (ignorance) guna. They are not raja but security people

to

> > be at the gate in role of dogs. The Rakshash are alert all the

time

> > and therefore being unpredictable (ASUR) is a desirable quality

for

> > them. All government and police are Rakshash and therefore they

are

> > unpreditable (ASUR). The Rakshash is not bad but when the

protector

> > becomes harmful like Rawana to protectee, its value system is

> > compromised, and it gets killed.

> >

> > Regards

> > K G

> > (Krishna Gopal)

> > --------------------------------

---

> -

> > We have to interpret this verse in a proper context. This has

been

> > said to reinforce the need even for men of great virtue to

perform

> > all actions as per shastric injunctions and not abandon any even

> > though they may not have to perform them because of their

stature.

> > The society will be looking for guidance from these people. If

they

> > become dishonest, the society will come to the conclusion that it

> > was also right for them to do so.

> >

> > This is what is happening at present. Corrupt politicians become

a

> > symbol for others to follow and hence their large followers. If

> they

> > had displayed honesty and integrity, they would have helped to

> > create a society where honesty and integrity would be held at a

> high

> > esteem.

> >

> > It proves totally the validity of the verse in every sense.

> >

> > This is my humble view.

> >

> > G Rangarajan

> > --------------------------------

---

> -

> >

> > 1. " GREAT MEN " in the days of Bhagwat Geetha, were the learned

> > Rishis and Sages, who were respected even by the rulers of the

> areas

> > and their advice was invariably sought for in every action, be it

> > political or economic decisions in the inteof the Country.

> >

> > 2. Politicians are not " Great Men " in my eyes. I will leave it

at

> > that ..... Who can learn morals from them?

> >

> > 3. In today's World, there are very few " Great Men " of knowledge

> who

> > could advice people in full devotion to their duty.

> >

> > Democracy as it is followed today is flawed and chooses leaders

by

> > mobocracy and money power, and intelligentsia do not stand a

chance

> > to win against such manipulators.

> >

> > kesava pillai

> > --------------------------------

-

> > , " sadhak_insight "

> > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > >

> > > I am confused about this verse in the Gita. The popular

meaning of

> > > this verse seems to be..

> > >

> > > " whatever ways in which a great man acts, those ways are

followed

> > by

> > > the rest of the people.

> > > Whatever standards are set by the great one, the world takes up

> and

> > > follows. "

> > >

> > > This seems to be an idealized interpretation of the verse. If

this

> > > interpretation is correct, how do we explain today's scenario

when

> > > petty politicians command great unflinched following? Criminals

> > rule

> > > the roost in many states/countries, by virtue of the power

given

> to

> > > them by popular mandate in an elected democracy. Oftentimes

it's

> > > satirically said, the masses are asses to follow such inept and

> > > corrupt leaders. The truly great men remain in oblivion. Please

> > share

> > > your thoughts on this refering to Gita wherever possible.

> > >

> > > Regards,

> > > Hari

> > > (Hari Krishnan)

> > >

> > > ---------------------------

> > > The following are the guidelines for Gita-Talk discussions.

> > >

> > > GUIDELINES FOR POSTING A QUESTION:

> > >

> > > 1. The group is focused on the Holy Gitaji and clarifying any

> > doubts,

> > > therefore only questions that pertain to Gitaji will be posted

in

> > the

> > > future.

> > >

> > > 2. Please restrict the number of questions asked to only one

at a

> > time.

> > >

> > > 3. Making reference of Gitaji shloka is compulsory - at least

> once

> > in

> > > the question.

> > >

> > > 4. Please be specific with the question, relating the practical

> > > difficulties being faced by the Sadhak. Specifics around, where

> is

> > the

> > > sadhak facing obstacles in his spiritual journey, in the

> teachings

> > of

> > > Geetaji, in principles laid down by Swamiji or other Mahatamas

are

> > > highly recommended to be included.

> > >

> > > 5. General questions will not be considered for future posting.

> > > e.g. " suicide " " solving world hunger " etc.

> > >

> > > GUIDELINES FOR POSTING A RESPONSE:

> > >

> > > 1. The group is focused on the Holy Gitaji, therefore, only

> > responses

> > > which further clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will be

posted.

> > >

> > > 2. Making reference of Gitaji shloka is highly encouraged - at

> > least

> > > once in the response. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji

or

> > other

> > > scriptures to substantiate your response.

> > >

> > > 3. Please be as concise and to the point as possible,

respecting

> > > sadhaka's time. Under no circustance the answer should exceed

say

> > one

> > > page at the most (500 words or so).

> > >

> > > 4. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to

the

> > > extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas

> > >

> > > 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only.

> > >

> > > 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other

> > organizations.

> > >

> > > 7. Complete reproduction of texts from any book is strongly

> > > discouraged, however references may be made of the book or

author

> > (but

> > > not links to other sites).

> > >

> > > 8. Kindly do not include your personal information such as

phone

> > > number, address etc.

> > >

> > > 9. Please do not address the response to a particular

individual

> > since

> > > the message is going to the entire group.

> > >

> > > 10. Due to the large readership, only those responses will be

> > posted

> > > which are in line with the general philosophy of taking Shrimad

> > > Bhagavad Gita as the reference.

> > >

> > > 11. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if

> > content is

> > > unclear for distribution or not directly related to the

question

> > being

> > > asked.

> > >

> > > 12. Please respond taking into consideration the novices,

youth,

> > > westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use of

only

> > > Sanskrit words, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit

> > > bracketed wherever possible.

> > >

> > > MODERATOR

> > > Ram Ram

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

Pujya Swamiji has written a lot about true greatness based on His deep

understanding of our scriptures. Here are a couple of thoughts that he has

expressed, per Gita and the scriptures.

 

The one we consider a great soul (Mahatma), that one is a

great soul only when he has completely detached himself from the

body. His greatness is not from association with that body. A great

soul is never restricted to the body. Therefore faith should only be

in the eternal principles and vows of the great Soul (Mahatma), and

not the perishable body or name. There is attachment associated with

the perishable body and the name. Therefore worshipping, revering,

glorifying the perishable, ever changing body, results in a waste of

our lives, but also causes a major deceit and delusion in us.

 

The greatness that we see any anyone (whether it be a Guru, a Saint,

or anyone that we admire deeply, that greatness is not their own. It

has come from God, even though we may believe that it is the

greatness of the Guru, a Saint etc. Just like one who makes a sweet

dish, the sweetness comes from the sugar, similarly, wherever you

see something special, this specialness is God's only. God has said

in the Gita -

 

" Yadhyadvibhootimatsatvam Srimadoorjitmeva vaa;

tattdevaavagacch tvam mama tejonshsambhavam. " (Gita 10:41).

 

" All that is glorious, brilliant, powerful, know that to be a

manifestation of Me, a spark of My splendour. " (Gita 10:41).

 

There is so much more Pujya Swamiji has written regarding this. You

may search the past sadhaka messages.

 

Meera Das

Ram Ram

 

-

Dear Krishna-bhaktas,

Radhe Krishna!

 

We cannot dispute the statement that " You are He " or " I am He " which

are true translations of " Tat-twam Asi " and " Aham Brahmasmi " . These

are the governing principles of Advaita Vedanta. But to get into a

mindset where the aspirant can understand the principle, he has to

go through " Dwaita " , worship Lord Krishna or his/her Ishta-deivatam

as a separate entity, develop and enhance Bhakti, at the same time

performing Karma-yoga to attain purity of mind. Unless the mind is

pure and devoid of desires for the fruits of action, this mindset

cannot be achieved. This is a hard and time-consuming process, and

short-cuts will not work in every case. so, to generalise to a

beginner " You are God " or " I am God " , does not make any sense.

 

First of all, the concept of " All Gods are One " , but are only the

manifestations of the " Nish-kala Brahman " , the Whole Indivisible

formless Supreme, should be imprinted in the minds of the aspirants.

But when we find that even the Mata-adhipathis, the heads of

religious institutions who are supposed to be " realised souls " , are

fighting with each other whether the Narasimha-murthy should have

a " Y " sign or " U " sign on His forehead and taking the matter to

courts, how can the common man get the concept of " Advaita " ?

 

One cannot profess to be a preceptor or a Guru unless he has

experiential knowledge of this teachings, and his thoughts, words

and deeds are all aligned on one plane. If we find things to the

contrary, that Guru should be abandoned. Bhagavadgita chanting and

learning it by heart is okay, but if one does not practice what is

written in the Gita, what is the use?

 

Truly great men do not advertise themselves or ask for any desires

to be fulfilled. They are beyond the mundane desires and it is

for others that can identify greatness in them and honour/learn from

them, not them proclaiming their own greatness.

 

Regards

K.V. Gopalakrishna.

--

Thanks for reply, which has given strength to my own views. The one

who projects himself superior and collects worldly riches to make

MATHAs ( centres for future controvercies) has not attained

knowledge.

 

RP Shahi

--------------------------------

, " sadhak_insight "

<sadhak_insight wrote:

>

> Hari Om

>

> Re Saadhak Shahi's query on the subject

>

> Those who call themselves to be Bhagwan or Sadgurus are most

> certainly " anti God " . A real Guru drives the followers towards God

> not towards himself. A God realised soul shall never pronounce

> himself to be God. Those who pronounce themselves to be God

> are " anti God " and are the people who are begging for respect and

> worship. They are inferior to the most ordinary beggars! Be sure

on

> that!

>

> Re Saadhak Sahi " s Query (Contd with Gitaji in focus)

>

> As far as Geetaji is concerned on the subject- there does not

appear

> to be direct reference for such people. In " Uttarkaand " of

Ramayana

> Tulsidaasji Maharaj refers about such " paakhandi " Gurus. But there

> are enough references indirectly in Geetaji from where we can draw

> inferences. Consider the qualities of " Siddha Bhakta " as

deciphered

> out in Ch 12:13 to 12:19. Or consider the qualities of

> even " stithapragya " (A karma yogi with settled intellect)

enumerated

> in Chapter 2:71. These so called self pronounced Gods or Gurus

might

> not have any qualities enumerated therein- for example how many

> among them are " santustam " (satisfied) or " anapekshah " (desireless)

> or " shubhashubh parityaagi " (renouncers of both good and bad)

> or " aniketah " (unmindful of abode).

>

> They are publishing life sized photographs of themselves,they are

> calling themselves to be the mediums which you should choose

should

> you want to reach God, they expect you to garland them, they keep

> donation boxes in the meetings so that you may part with your

money,

> they want you to worship them, they want you to respect them, they

> want you to do their jaijaikaar,they have terms on which you can

> become their disciples,they have magazines publishing in which you

> are welcome to advertise and - HOW THEY ARE DESIRELESS?

> Even if the faintest of desires is prevalent in you ,you cant

reach

> Godhood- irrespective of whether you chose Karma Yoga or Jnana

Yoga

> or Bhakti Yoga! Geetaji is abundantly clear on the subject. What

> desires they are supposed to have -once they are God themselves?

Why

> they should advertise their presence? Now that they are equal to

God

> where is the need for them to open ashrams? They should be happy

> within themselves ! How they have reached Godhood? Did anyone

state

> that? So many Gurus are existing in this country, how many of them

> have given to you the steps which you should take to reach God?

>

> The real GOD REALISED SOUL which the country has produced, in the

> last century was Param Shraddheya Swamiji Shri Ramsukhdasji

Maharaj.

> Before that Sethji Jaidayalji Goenka realised God. Now consider

> their life with the life of so called Gurus or Gods ! Swamiji

never

> allowed himself to be photographed, he never touched money, he

never

> allowed himself to be worshipped,there was a ban for keeping

> donation boxes at the places where his discourses were to be held,

> he never touched a woman after childhood, he never requested any

one

> to donate for any purpose,in his meetings no one was permitted to

> clap or say jaijaikaar,he never allowed anyone to touch his

feet...

> He was God realised soul! He never looked at the world for getting

> something out of it! He was God realised soul! He was desireless!!

> Not these self proclaimed Gods!

>

> Saadhaks should be beware of such jokers. In Kaliyuga such drama or

> chamatkar producing jokers will be in abundance. They will be

> committing heinous crimes of preventing saadhaks from fulfilling

the

> purpose of the human life. They will misguide them and snatch away

> their moneys. They will arouse the chamatkaar witnessing curiosity

> in the saadhaks and in the end will mislead them to disaster. They

> are going to be in plenty - as Kaliyuga is friendly to such

culprits.

>

> The real Guru ,according to Swamiji, is your CONSCIENCE! Whenever

> there will be a need of Guru or guidance , if you are a genuine

> Saadhak, be certain that without making any efforts by you , the

> Guru will come to you! Guru may come to you in the form of a child

> or stranger or in any form, but he will change you for the better.

> The real Guru is " KRISHNA " .

>

> He is the Guru of the world- " KRISHANAM VANDE JAGADGURUM "

>

> Jai Shree Krishna

>

> Vyas N B

>

>

> , " sadhak_insight "

> <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> >

> > Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

> >

> > All responses given by fellow sadhakas, together, capture the

> essence

> > of this verse 3:21.

> >

> > However, the response of Rangarajanji captures the essence of the

> > verse when seen within the context of verse before and after this

> > verse.

> >

> > Essentially those are truly great people who act in very

> responsible

> > ways in the society and guide people waiting for such guidance to

> > live a meaningful life. As we all know most people have to be

led.

> > Greatness of God works as the Light through people of wisdom.

> Having

> > acquired Self-Knowledge or realization of their true nature being

> > Atman, they need not even act. Saints and sages are such

examples,

> > not the political leaders in general.

> >

> > They act just to serve people by guiding them to righteousness to

> > live a life of happiness, free of conflict.

> >

> > Greatness or leadership doesn't depend at all on the number of

> > people, however large may be the following of those leaders, if

> > people they lead are misled to their own benefits!

> >

> > As we have also seen such leaders are not really happy because

> their

> > happiness depends on so many things and people they try to

> manipulate

> > ultimately bring their own downfall.

> >

> > Namaskars.. Pratap

> >

> >

> > ------------------------------

> >

> > Ravana and Kansa were great too but only when alive.

> >

> > Krishna message is one for those who remain great after death.

> >

> > Remember that greatness is of the Atma not the body.

> >

> > Anil bhanot

> >

> > --------------------------------

-

> > Jai Sri Krishna,

> >

> > Though I have little knowledge of Gita ji but what ever I have

read

> > it inspires you to leave your ego and be a part of The Great

> Krishna

> > ji. Once we realise that HE is the supreme controller of

everything

> > in this universe it is a humbling experience.

> >

> > I have nothing against preachers with large following, but it is

a

> > natural question which comes to my mind and I would appreciate

very

> > much if you can share with me insights from Gita. Does Gita

have a

> > statement about preachers who project and often even declare

> > themselves to be like Bhagawan or Sadguru with a large following.

> > What category do they belong to, as per the Gita ?

> > A true believer.

> > RP Shahi

> >

> > --------------------------------

-

> > , " sadhak_insight "

> > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Hari Om

> > > Re Gitaji 3:21

> > > Right you are. But times have changed. The law remains the

same.

> > > Whatever " great men " do, ordinary people follow. No doubt. But

> > > Unfortunately the definition of " great men " has undergone

change

> in

> > > common man's mind. Because of importance of wealth,position

etc

> in

> > > the Antahkarana (mind stuff) you have started considering

wealthy

> > > people and Ministers ,etc as " great

> > > Men " and have started following them.

> > >

> > > The law operates- as is evidenced by the fact that there is

> > > automatic circulation of tax evasion

> > > Methods etc which evasions are done by leaders in industry or

> > > business. The conduct of wealthy people automatically spreads

> > > without any conscious effort. The law operates-the people have

> > > changed for worse! Kaliyuga!

> > >

> > > Jai Shree Krishna

> > >

> > > Vyas N B

> > > ------------------------------

-

> > > Hariji,

> > > You have asked a good question. Shri Vishnu

(Krishna)

> > > meant example set by Noble souls are followed for long times.

> > > Needless to say residents of Lanka were followers of Ravana and

> > were

> > > destroyed.

> > > So were the followers of Kansa.

> > > Both Ravana and Kansa had great following in their Kingdoms.

> > > However today, we follow the examples (or at least teach our

> kids)

> > > to follow examples of Shri Rama and Shri Krishna and not

Ravana

> or

> > > Kansa.

> > > When the Lord is addressing he is speaking the Truth that is

one

> > > that is sustained over time.

> > > Aberrant behavior or example of aberrant behavior does not last

> > long

> > > or wide in the Human Populace

> > >

> > > Gopal Sharma

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > ------------------------------

--

> > > Priy sadhak

> > >

> > > Pranams,

> > >

> > > Before applying these verses to todays scenerio one must

> understand

> > > what the Great man is? Great is not by power or post but it as

to

> > > how selfless the person is? Saints with selfless preachings to

> > > society are great ones. The society is today miscontemplating

the

> > > noun Great man. It thinks great politicians, Moneyholders,

cinema

> > > actors, famous players. But are they selfless, egoless, this

is

> to

> > > be considered before following their suit.

> > >

> > > Thanx,

> > >

> > > Raja

> > > (Raja Gurdasani)

> > > ------------------------------

--

> > > The message of the Gita is basically meant for " Mumukhu " , the

> > seeker

> > > of liberation. One who reaches such a ripe stage on the path

> > > always seeks to be ideal. it is to him the verse applies, not

to

> > all

> > > and sundry.

> > > pmr

> > > Prof. P Mallikarjuna Rao

> > > ------------------------------

--

> > > Gita gyan is meant for the seeker & therefore first and

foremost

> > > thing for him/her is to " accept " through " own " anubhava.

> > >

> > > The greatness for " blind " & " selfish " ones has little or no

> > meaning

> > > and therefore it would for a true-seeker of the ghyana is

always

> as

> > > an observation and just-awareness.

> > >

> > > Should we be part of such a lot ? The choice is our to decide

> upon.

> > >

> > > Best Regards

> > > Kishin Chandiramani

> > >

> > > ------------------------------

--

> > > It is simple. Great men here means men of unfathomable

> > knowledge,with

> > > a clear vision about the ways of life,self controlled, wishing

> every

> > > one good, no ambitions, shunning wealth and leading a simple

> life.

> > > Such men will never do any thing wrong. and what ever they do

> will

> > > always be for the good of men and the world. That is it.

> > > The leaders of modern days, referred to, are not thought of in

> the

> > > verse. They are in no way great men . They can be classified as

> > > corrupt loafers. I hope this clarifies the matter.

> > > Examples of great men who should be imitated are :-

> > > A Vashishta, A Vyasa, A vishwamitra, A Buddha, A Rama, A

krishna,

> > > and among mundane men, A Balagangadhar, A Mahatma Gandhi, A

> > > Ramakrishna Paramahansa, Vivekananda, Bhagavan Ramana.

> > > How do the present day corrupt politicians come under this

> > category?

> > > They are to be shunned. We cannot equate the Great Men

mentioned

> in

> > > the Gita Verse with the present day Politicians. There is no

> > > question of imitating them.

> > >

> > > RAMACHANDER.

> > >

> > > ------------------------------

--

> > >

> > > Hari to know two words from Bhagwat Gita

> > >

> > > Raja and Rakshash both are defined in the Bhagwat Gita. Raja

is

> not

> > > ruler or king, as commonly misunderstood. And Rakshash is not a

> > > dangerous animal like creature as it is commonly misunderstood.

> > >

> > > Raja is from guna of Rajas (passion). Rajas means dust or raj.

A

> > > raja is dust of the truth or sat guna or the god. As dust has

> > > property to spread itself, Raja is role model and people follow

> > > his/her character by understanding it. This understanding

process

> > of

> > > people to find a Raja or a role model for them is called

Pragya

> and

> > > in broken sanskrit was called praja. The raja thus is praja

pati

> or

> > > the object of understanding. Gandhi, was a Raja because he was

> > > followed by people in voluntary way, without any authority and

> > > without incentive. Ram is a Raja as he continued to guide and

> > > inspire our lives from time immorial.

> > >

> > > Rakshash is protector or defense or security agency. Rakshash

> > belong

> > > to Tamo (ignorance) guna. They are not raja but security

people

> to

> > > be at the gate in role of dogs. The Rakshash are alert all the

> time

> > > and therefore being unpredictable (ASUR) is a desirable

quality

> for

> > > them. All government and police are Rakshash and therefore

they

> are

> > > unpreditable (ASUR). The Rakshash is not bad but when the

> protector

> > > becomes harmful like Rawana to protectee, its value system is

> > > compromised, and it gets killed.

> > >

> > > Regards

> > > K G

> > > (Krishna Gopal)

> > > ------------------------------

--

> ---

> > -

> > > We have to interpret this verse in a proper context. This has

> been

> > > said to reinforce the need even for men of great virtue to

> perform

> > > all actions as per shastric injunctions and not abandon any

even

> > > though they may not have to perform them because of their

> stature.

> > > The society will be looking for guidance from these people. If

> they

> > > become dishonest, the society will come to the conclusion that

it

> > > was also right for them to do so.

> > >

> > > This is what is happening at present. Corrupt politicians

become

> a

> > > symbol for others to follow and hence their large followers. If

> > they

> > > had displayed honesty and integrity, they would have helped to

> > > create a society where honesty and integrity would be held at a

> > high

> > > esteem.

> > >

> > > It proves totally the validity of the verse in every sense.

> > >

> > > This is my humble view.

> > >

> > > G Rangarajan

> > > ------------------------------

--

> ---

> > -

> > >

> > > 1. " GREAT MEN " in the days of Bhagwat Geetha, were the learned

> > > Rishis and Sages, who were respected even by the rulers of the

> > areas

> > > and their advice was invariably sought for in every action, be

it

> > > political or economic decisions in the inteof the Country.

> > >

> > > 2. Politicians are not " Great Men " in my eyes. I will leave

it

> at

> > > that ..... Who can learn morals from them?

> > >

> > > 3. In today's World, there are very few " Great Men " of

knowledge

> > who

> > > could advice people in full devotion to their duty.

> > >

> > > Democracy as it is followed today is flawed and chooses

leaders

> by

> > > mobocracy and money power, and intelligentsia do not stand a

> chance

> > > to win against such manipulators.

> > >

> > > kesava pillai

> > > ------------------------------

--

> -

> > > , " sadhak_insight "

> > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > I am confused about this verse in the Gita. The popular

> meaning of

> > > > this verse seems to be..

> > > >

> > > > " whatever ways in which a great man acts, those ways are

> followed

> > > by

> > > > the rest of the people.

> > > > Whatever standards are set by the great one, the world takes

up

> > and

> > > > follows. "

> > > >

> > > > This seems to be an idealized interpretation of the verse.

If

> this

> > > > interpretation is correct, how do we explain today's

scenario

> when

> > > > petty politicians command great unflinched following?

Criminals

> > > rule

> > > > the roost in many states/countries, by virtue of the power

> given

> > to

> > > > them by popular mandate in an elected democracy. Oftentimes

> it's

> > > > satirically said, the masses are asses to follow such inept

and

> > > > corrupt leaders. The truly great men remain in oblivion.

Please

> > > share

> > > > your thoughts on this refering to Gita wherever possible.

> > > >

> > > > Regards,

> > > > Hari

> > > > (Hari Krishnan)

> > > >

> > > > ---------------------------

> > > > The following are the guidelines for Gita-Talk discussions.

> > > >

> > > > GUIDELINES FOR POSTING A QUESTION:

> > > >

> > > > 1. The group is focused on the Holy Gitaji and clarifying any

> > > doubts,

> > > > therefore only questions that pertain to Gitaji will be

posted

> in

> > > the

> > > > future.

> > > >

> > > > 2. Please restrict the number of questions asked to only one

> at a

> > > time.

> > > >

> > > > 3. Making reference of Gitaji shloka is compulsory - at least

> > once

> > > in

> > > > the question.

> > > >

> > > > 4. Please be specific with the question, relating the

practical

> > > > difficulties being faced by the Sadhak. Specifics around,

where

> > is

> > > the

> > > > sadhak facing obstacles in his spiritual journey, in the

> > teachings

> > > of

> > > > Geetaji, in principles laid down by Swamiji or other

Mahatamas

> are

> > > > highly recommended to be included.

> > > >

> > > > 5. General questions will not be considered for future

posting.

> > > > e.g. " suicide " " solving world hunger " etc.

> > > >

> > > > GUIDELINES FOR POSTING A RESPONSE:

> > > >

> > > > 1. The group is focused on the Holy Gitaji, therefore, only

> > > responses

> > > > which further clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will be

> posted.

> > > >

> > > > 2. Making reference of Gitaji shloka is highly encouraged -

at

> > > least

> > > > once in the response. Wherever possible, please quote

Gitaji

> or

> > > other

> > > > scriptures to substantiate your response.

> > > >

> > > > 3. Please be as concise and to the point as possible,

> respecting

> > > > sadhaka's time. Under no circustance the answer should

exceed

> say

> > > one

> > > > page at the most (500 words or so).

> > > >

> > > > 4. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to

> the

> > > > extent that they further help in understanding the Gita

shlokas

> > > >

> > > > 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only.

> > > >

> > > > 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other

> > > organizations.

> > > >

> > > > 7. Complete reproduction of texts from any book is strongly

> > > > discouraged, however references may be made of the book or

> author

> > > (but

> > > > not links to other sites).

> > > >

> > > > 8. Kindly do not include your personal information such as

> phone

> > > > number, address etc.

> > > >

> > > > 9. Please do not address the response to a particular

> individual

> > > since

> > > > the message is going to the entire group.

> > > >

> > > > 10. Due to the large readership, only those responses will be

> > > posted

> > > > which are in line with the general philosophy of taking

Shrimad

> > > > Bhagavad Gita as the reference.

> > > >

> > > > 11. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if

> > > content is

> > > > unclear for distribution or not directly related to the

> question

> > > being

> > > > asked.

> > > >

> > > > 12. Please respond taking into consideration the novices,

> youth,

> > > > westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use of

> only

> > > > Sanskrit words, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit

> > > > bracketed wherever possible.

> > > >

> > > > MODERATOR

> > > > Ram Ram

> > > >

> > >

> >

>