Is Gita Simply a Matter of Acceptance ? Is there Scientific Explanations?

June 23, 2008

Haribol!!

Can anyone explain why we should believe in the Gita or for that

matter the Vedas?

I've been stuying Bhagavad Gita for some time, and I believe everything

that is there is the absolute truth, but how do you explain to someone

else that this is the truth? It is not enough to say " it comes from

Krsna " " just accept Krsna " . It has to be a more scientific and thorough

explanation, do you know what I mean?

I'd like to be able to explain to someone why this is the truth, how do

we know the real source !

Is there anything in the Gita that provides scientific view /

explanation or anything that addresses the Origin of the Vedas / Gita ?

Hare Krsna!! Thanks.

Daniel Tkach

FROM THE MODERATOR

GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES:

The Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify their doubts

related to Gitaji shlokas. To ensure that both the questions and the

responses are focused, pointed and brief, the guidelines for Gita-Talk

discussions are being modified and are being sent to you.

The following are the guidelines for Gita-Talk discussions.

GUIDELINES FOR POSTING A QUESTION:

1. The group is focused on the Holy Gitaji and clarifying any doubts,

therefore only questions that pertain to Gitaji will be posted in the

future.

2. Please restrict the number of questions asked to only one at a time.

3. Making reference of Gitaji shloka is compulsory - at least once in

the question.

4. Please be specific with the question, relating the practical

difficulties being faced by the Sadhak. Specifics around, where is the

sadhak facing obstacles in his spiritual journey, in the teachings of

Geetaji, in principles laid down by Swamiji or other Mahatamas are

highly recommended to be included.

5. General questions will not be considered for future posting.

e.g. " suicide " " solving world hunger " etc.

GUIDELINES FOR POSTING A RESPONSE:

1. The group is focused on the Holy Gitaji, therefore, only responses

which further clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will be posted.

2. Making reference of Gitaji shloka is highly encouraged - at least

once in the response. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other

scriptures to substantiate your response.

3. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting

sadhaka's time. Under no circustance the answer should exceed say one

page at the most (500 words or so).

4. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the

extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas

5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only.

6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other

organizations.

7. Complete reproduction of texts from any book is strongly

discouraged, however references may be made of the book or author(but

not links to other sites).

8. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone

number, address etc.

9. Please do not address the response to a particular individual since

the message is going to the entire group.

10. Due to the large readership, only those responses will be posted

which are in line with the general philosophy of taking Shrimad

Bhagavad Gita as the reference.

11. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if content is

unclear for distribution or not directly related to the question being

asked.

12. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth,

westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use of only

Sanskrit words, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit

bracketed wherever possible.

MODERATOR

Ram Ram

June 24, 2008

Hari Om

Re Saadhak Daniel's Queries - Reply to Question No 1

There are too many queries emanating in reality. First let me

summarise them. Then a separate reply shall be given for each query.

In the end we shall conclude- so that time and space requirements of

Moderator also remain complied with.

Q 1 Is Gita simply a matter of Acceptance?

Q 2 Is there scientific explanation ( other than acceptance) ?

Q 3 Why we should believe in the Gita or for that purpose the

Vedas?

Q 4 How do you explain to some one that whatever is explained in

Gita is truthful ?

Q 5 How do we know the real source of Gita?

Q 6 Is there anything in the Gita that provides scientific view /

explanation or anything that addresses the Origin of Vedas/ Gita?

Now these are the six questions, which Brother Daniel has asked, at

the same time acknowledging that he has been studying Gita and

believes that everything stated therein is truth. He wants now to

make others believe that.

In this posting first I will take Q no 1. Every day I shall address

one question and in the end shall conclude.

IS GITA SIMPLY A MATTER OF ACCEPTANCE?

Everything in this world basically is a matter of acceptance only.

Why to single out Gita? Take your birth for example. Can you say

based on the " knowledge " - your own personal knowledge -as to who is

your father? You don't remember your birth. Whoever gave you love

and affection in the beginning was your mother and to whosoever she

pointed out was your father! How will you prove that Mr So and So is

your father ? THERE IS NO WAY ANYBODY CAN PROVE BASED ON HIS

KNOWLEDGE THAT HE IS SON OF MR SO AND SO

I repeat no way! This is a fact. Anybody can raise a separate query

on this. You have to accept only in the beginning. Later on the

knowledge comes. It is your acceptance level which opens the door of

knowledge in life. When you accept that you are son of so and so,

that acceptance keeps strengthening in you and when you become adult

or old , your talking, walking styles, your physique or mannerism

start resembling to your father ! First you have to accept. You

accept first that alphabet A comes before alphabet B, later on you

may become a Professor of English language. You have to accept first

that one plus one is two- later on you can get a Doctorate in

mathematics! Why one plus one is 2 and not 3? Why do you pronounce A

as A and not as B? You accepted first. Later on you became

knowledgeable! Just as you accepted someone to be your father, you

have to first accept God also. Later on all explanations and logics

will flow. You cant establish by knowledge the identity of your own

father, where is the question then of establishing

the eternal father , the God? Same is for Gita also which is the

voice of that God only- whose identity you cant establish based on

your knowledge. God is beyond knowledge. God or Gita or our fathers

all are matter of belief and acceptance. Yes Gita is a matter of

acceptance! What is wrong with that? If you start making a list- you

will find uncountable things in life which you accepted first. We

shall deal with it later on with specific reference.

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

-

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

Very good question, " One has studied Gita for some time and believes

that it has absolute truth, but how do you explain to someone else

logically that Gita has the truth? "

The way I understand is that belief in truth has a place in

organized religions. However the truth as taught in Gita or Veda or

other such scriptures is to be experienced. The teaching is about

the reality of " I " , the world, and God, and above all how they are

related to each other. Simply belief in the truth will not work in

this case as it is not organized around God, the truth. Gita is not

dogmatic. Many possibilities are explained rather than preached

specific. When one's belief is replaced with knowing experientially,

one knows how to explain to others!

Second difficulty is that the experience of God is unlike all other

experiences which are all objective knowledge through sense organs,

mind and intellect. All such experiences are limited in scope. God

is that Knowingness itself through which everything else is known to

exist in the first place and that which cannot be objectified, When

objectified, God becomes limited object of our belief. Belief in God

takes one up to a certain point, never to final salvation..

Lord Krishna is speaking unspeakable only because we need to

communicate to ohers with a full knowledge that it is only a pointer

to truth. One has to walk accordingly.

Such being the case, my suggestion would be to explain these above

points first. Then one has to study with open mind, asking

questions, doubting, and not resting until answers become

convictions and resonate within oneself. True Understanding of

verses culminate into bursts of joy and satisfaction. This is a test

of experience of truth. In this regard help of like minded friends,

realized teacher, and platform such as this group is highly

recommended. The one to whom we want to explain has to be interested

in truth and approach us to have a meaningful explanation.

Namaskars...Pratap

(Pratap Bhatt)

-

Dear seeker of permanent truths,

The physical, subtle and causal Truths are found by two methods viz.

either Inductive or Deductive. Inductive methods are normally

applied in physical sciences and scientific findings go on changing.

Newtonian Physics of inert matter has vastly changed as matter is

now having unsuspected vitality. Even steel feels fatigue. Science

once said Earth is static and Sun is moving, now Sceince has

accepted Sun is stationary and earth is moving. Biology is changing

every day.

The permanent truths found through deductive methods known to human

soul (apriori knowledge) contained in Vedas, Bhagavd Gita and

Upanishads have been challenged, criticised and even people like

great materialists Charvakas said it was going back to the ancient

period. BUT till date not proved wrong even by the great scientists

of any age-past and present. On the contrary even Newton, Einstein

and many others confirrmed about the existence of Supreme Reality.

Einstein even put a board outside his laboratory " Thou art That " .

and said God does not play dice.

Deductive method is based on Metaphysics (beyond Physics/matter)

which Bhagavd Gita says is the supreme science. The rsis and munnies

(metaphysicists and wandering sages)of yore got these permanent

truths through their omniscient souls. Vedic truths in regard to

matter are now being proved even in the laboratory of scientists

relating to atom, sub atomic particles, physical sciences. But

truths relating to subtle matters like subtle divine Nature,

location of subtle instruments in human body like Vivek (power of

discernment, Ego, Buddhi (intellect), manas (inward looking mind),

physical scientist can never find. They only know about maaterial

instruments in the human body like senses, sense organs etc.

If truths contained in Vedas and Bhagavad Gita are to be accepted on

blind faith, it is better not to accept and one should continue

facing material happiness or sorrows in this vast turbulent sea of

matter. But one who is convinced of the much higher deductive

methods of finding truths, will accept Bhagavad Gita and Vedas as

Shruti - revealed through the human soul which is subtle particle of

the Supreme Soul (Parmatma).

with kind regards,

P.K.Sabhlok

--

Dear TKach.

I think the Moderator would/may respond to this one query. Staying

with the group's exchanges so far, would have already shed some

light on these Truths.

To me as a sadhak; A real " believer's " is he whose conviction is

fully realised and becomes one with it. It is not about blind

faith.

Even the scientist person like Newton in a question of him being the

greatest person, came out stating that " people say I know so so

much; but in fact my knowledge is just like an atom of dust at the

sea-shore...while I have so much to gain the knowledge ... " . The

Science or seeking scientific reasons being only or related to

physics or a form and being limited - cannot in anyway define the

omni-present and all-prevading GOD.

This subject is of HEART before the BRAIN.

Best Regards

Kishin Chandiramani

---

Dear Sadak,

Geetha starts, " EITHI UPANATHSHU " . That means Geetha is juice of

Upanashids/Vedas.

From my personal view the Geetha is Do`s and Dont`s. Rules laid to

guide one from human to divinity. Once human level raises to

divinity, he becomes realized in conscience level.

If one believes Geetha and strictly PRACTICES what Krishna says,

that person becomes " Gunaa Theethan " , as Bagavan himself said. The

question any one of you can ask yourself, " Am I practicing basic

princlples of Geetha, speaking truth (alignment of thought, word and

deed at the conscience level), seeing Bagavan (God Consciousness)in

all living creatures, getting up early in morning and atleast

thinking of Bagavan, controling senses - tongue in eating (Bagavan

said in Geetha how Gunas affect a person due to food) and in talking

(Not causing the least pain by words spoken), Bagavan says, " Indriya

(Organs of actions) control. Do we do this?

After this comes Bagavan saying, " Kama yeshu- Krodha yeshu etc " .

From desire comes anger, from anger comes greed etc. Simply by

understanding these words through vivek (discriminative faculty) one

can become calms and experience Ananda (it is bliss, with no

opposite, it is not happiness). The opposity of Happiness is

sorrow, such as health and sickess, so on. But for Ananda there is

no opposite. Some people just by reading Bagavath Geetha feel happy,

then what to speak of application in one's life; Imagine the glory.

Coming to scientific explanation, Geetha says, " Prana, Samana etc " 5

pranas, which scientist accepts 5 elements of air we breath. Over

night kept food forments and produces certain chemical change next

day says Geetha. Scientist say food kept in store for a night and

used next day causes surge in immune system. But Geetha has gone

much deeper than scientist by says how our brain is affected.

There is everything in Geetha for the whole creation. But one does

not make the effort to read and deeply contemplate on hidden truths.

Now coming to Sri Krishna: HE had 108 Sidhis, able to lift mountain,

kill demons, bring back the dead son of HIS Guru Sandipan`s dead son

to life. HIS teaching gives more insight about human way of living

that could elevate to Moksha. In HIS life time were there any

mistakes? HE is therefore believed by saints as " Jagath GURU " .

Sri Krishna says, that one needs to under go several birth to start

to say " Om Namo Narayanaya " . So the ones who do not believe in HIM

is our brothers/sisters are on the way striving to reach that level.

Therefore there should be no dislike/hatred to be shown to any

persons, as Sri Krishna says, " See ME in all creation " . One may

believe in Geetha but if one should have even in conscience level a

small dislike on the person who disbelieves Sri Krishna/ Geetha,

then such a person is not true Visnavite.

B.Sathyanarayan

, " sadhak_insight "

<sadhak_insight wrote:

>

> Haribol!!

>

> Can anyone explain why we should believe in the Gita or for that

> matter the Vedas?

>

> I've been studying Bhagavad Gita for some time, and I believe

everything

> that is there is the absolute truth, but how do you explain to

someone

> else that this is the truth? It is not enough to say " it comes from

> Krsna " " just accept Krsna " . It has to be a more scientific and

thorough

> explanation, do you know what I mean?

>

> I'd like to be able to explain to someone why this is the truth,

how do

> we know the real source !

>

> Is there anything in the Gita that provides scientific view /

> explanation or anything that addresses the Origin of the Vedas /

Gita ?

>

> Hare Krsna!! Thanks.

>

> Daniel Tkach

>

> FROM THE MODERATOR

>

> GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES:

> The Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify their doubts

> related to Gitaji shlokas. To ensure that both the questions and

the

> responses are focused, pointed and brief, the guidelines for Gita-

Talk

> discussions are being modified and are being sent to you.

>

> The following are the guidelines for Gita-Talk discussions.

>

> GUIDELINES FOR POSTING A QUESTION:

>

> 1. The group is focused on the Holy Gitaji and clarifying any

doubts,

> therefore only questions that pertain to Gitaji will be posted in

the

> future.

>

> 2. Please restrict the number of questions asked to only one at a

time.

>

> 3. Making reference of Gitaji shloka is compulsory - at least once

in

> the question.

>

> 4. Please be specific with the question, relating the practical

> difficulties being faced by the Sadhak. Specifics around, where is

the

> sadhak facing obstacles in his spiritual journey, in the teachings

of

> Geetaji, in principles laid down by Swamiji or other Mahatamas are

> highly recommended to be included.

>

> 5. General questions will not be considered for future posting.

> e.g. " suicide " " solving world hunger " etc.

>

> GUIDELINES FOR POSTING A RESPONSE:

>

> 1. The group is focused on the Holy Gitaji, therefore, only

responses

> which further clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will be posted.

>

> 2. Making reference of Gitaji shloka is highly encouraged - at

least

> once in the response. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or

other

> scriptures to substantiate your response.

>

> 3. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting

> sadhaka's time. Under no circustance the answer should exceed say

one

> page at the most (500 words or so).

>

> 4. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the

> extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas

>

> 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only.

>

> 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other

> organizations.

>

> 7. Complete reproduction of texts from any book is strongly

> discouraged, however references may be made of the book or author

(but

> not links to other sites).

>

> 8. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone

> number, address etc.

>

> 9. Please do not address the response to a particular individual

since

> the message is going to the entire group.

>

> 10. Due to the large readership, only those responses will be

posted

> which are in line with the general philosophy of taking Shrimad

> Bhagavad Gita as the reference.

>

> 11. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if

content is

> unclear for distribution or not directly related to the question

being

> asked.

>

> 12. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth,

> westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use of only

> Sanskrit words, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit

> bracketed wherever possible.

>

> MODERATOR

> Ram Ram

>

June 24, 2008

Dear Daniel

There are three words a) information b) knowledge c) truth.

Information is empirical or a typical case like history, or court

case with names and places and details of observervation. Akbar and

Ashoka both are rulers but student of history can not substitue one

with another.

Knowledge is not information but a model or theoretical/logical

model which is not dependent on a given history or experiment but is

always there in some form or the other. Physics is not a given

history but ever present (sanaatan, nitya) and f = force, g=

gravity, v= velocity are symbol of characters which takes any names

and places in value. Physics can thus, predict any information

without specific names. This 'physics' which is nitya, sanaatan is

thus an example of knowledge.

Satya (truth) is one step beyond the knowledge. It is universal

knowledge and therefore known naturally to all f us without effort,

and common to all. Because it is common, there cannot exist

differences in opinon, and thus no conflict. Gandhi therefore

defined truth in its property of non voilence. In other words, if

understanding of Bhagwat Gita makes one contemplative and

independent, and free from anexiety, conflict then this is Truth.

Science is not truth but a way to truth. This is a know how of

already known things. If there is no truth, there can not be

sciences explaining that. Thus, truth is the aim of all knowledges.

It can only be realized but when it comes to explanation, it becomes

sciences.

I cannot write how many times in Bhagwat Gita, satya (Truth) and

gyan (Knowledge) are used differently, and accurate absolutely.

Best regards

K G

(Krishna Gopal)

-------------------------------

Jai Shri Krishna,

Re: Sadhak Daniel's query - Q 1

Vyas Ji has beautifully addressed Sadhak Daniel's query on

Acceptance.

Acceptance is FAR MORE Superior than learning (knowledge). Whatever

one accepts in life, one never forgets, whereas anything learnt can

always be forgotten, partially or completely. If you are woken up in

the middle of the night and asked what is your marital status, you

will not need even a second to think before answering this question

because you have firmly accepted that you are bachelor, married or

widower.

At least in the Indian context, a chaste (Pativrata) woman, accepts

her relationship with the person she marries just by the saying of

the Priest performing the matrimonial rituals. The acceptance is

instant and so firm that even after say 50 years of the death of her

husband she becomes vigilant whenever anyone takes her husband's

name. She can never forget the acceptance of the man as her husband.

A Suhagan (a married woman with her husband alive) does not see

herself as 'Widow' even in her dreams - that is the power of

ACCEPTANCE.

We all will vouch for the fact that many things we learn in life

(knowledge acquired), we tend to forget with time. BUT no one

forgets whatever one accepts once.

Use of underestimating words such as " simply " is apt at best to

learning (knowledge) only. Acceptance is on top at 100 on on a scale

where learning is at 1.

Narayan Narayan

Rajendra J Bohra

--------------------------------

Why we should believe in the Gita or for that matter the Vedas?

Belief in anything is useless in itself. Yet, belief alone can let

anyone start one's journey toward anything including spirituality.

You cannot derive benefit from anything – be it Gita or Vedas or

cough medicine – unless you have a belief to start with. It is our

habit to ignore things unless we have a belief. Therefore, one

should have belief in something if one wants to derive benefits from

anything. Belief is the key to the door for any body of knowledge

including Vedanta.

If we make our beleifs our path we won't go anywhere just like a

blind man following another blind man. Belief cannot reap the fruits

from anything unless we adapt to the path we choose. Threfore, it is

what you understand and realize from the scripts that matters for

our progress. Carrying out anything without understanding is even

worse than not doing it since we could channel our resources to what

helps us. Understanding is the key to tread the path we choose

including spiritual practice.

But, even if we understand great meanings out of the scripts, it is

of no use unless it is adapted in our life. No matter what we

understand in our thought process, we continue to fidget in our

lives contrary to our very understanding unless the knowledge

perculates to our atomic existence in its subtlety and clarity. It

is what we are that matters at any point of time – before the path

wherein no belief has dawned, in the path wherein the belief has

kicked off the process, and all along the path wherein the knowledge

trickles into our living, in its purity. After all what we would be

matters no matter we took guidance from an Upanishad or from a Veda

or from The Gita or from any other scriptures or from The Life as

such.

The idea is to be at peace. The litmus test for our state in the

path is the happiness. Anything that deviates us from our natural

state of peace and happiness is reveals the play of our ignorance

and alerts us to explore and fix the same at once. To jump start

ourselves in such a process we should believe in Vedas. To keep in

pace with the process, we should understand the Vedas. To be one with

the process, we should be the Vedas.

Veda means Knowledge. Knowledge means Bliss. Bliss is The Truth. We

should be grateful to the Faith as it put us in the path of

Knowledge. We should be grateful to the Knowledge as it marches us

toward the Bliss. We should be grateful to the Bliss as it keeps us

with the Truth. All are excellent as far as they are correctly

placed and practiced.

Respects.

Naga Narayana.

---

Jai hree Krishna Pryia Bhandus

Based on my understanding, Gita/Vedas are the origins of LANGUAGE,

MATHS AND SCIENCE. Here is an example of Math and the number ZERO.

Origins from SANYAS into Arabic SIFER to Latin CIFER and english

ZERO.

As I understand, the concept of Nothingness came from Vedic thought

as well. SANATAN DHARMA represents Eternal and ultimate TRUTH.

These Eternal Truths existed even before creation, just like gravity

existed even before Newton labeled it as gravity, when he observed

the apple falling from a tree.

Jai Hind

Jayesh A Patel

London

, " sadhak_insight "

<sadhak_insight wrote:

>

> Hari Om

>

> Re Saadhak Daniel's Queries - Reply to Question No 1

>

> There are too many queries emanating in reality. First let me

> summarise them. Then a separate reply shall be given for each

query.

> In the end we shall conclude- so that time and space requirements

of

> Moderator also remain complied with.

>

> Q 1 Is Gita simply a matter of Acceptance?

>

> Q 2 Is there scientific explanation ( other than acceptance) ?

>

> Q 3 Why we should believe in the Gita or for that purpose the

> Vedas?

>

> Q 4 How do you explain to some one that whatever is explained in

> Gita is truthful ?

>

> Q 5 How do we know the real source of Gita?

>

> Q 6 Is there anything in the Gita that provides scientific view /

> explanation or anything that addresses the Origin of Vedas/ Gita?

>

> Now these are the six questions, which Brother Daniel has asked,

at

> the same time acknowledging that he has been studying Gita and

> believes that everything stated therein is truth. He wants now to

> make others believe that.

>

> In this posting first I will take Q no 1. Every day I shall

address

> one question and in the end shall conclude.

>

> IS GITA SIMPLY A MATTER OF ACCEPTANCE?

>

> Everything in this world basically is a matter of acceptance only.

> Why to single out Gita? Take your birth for example. Can you say

> based on the " knowledge " - your own personal knowledge -as to who

is

> your father? You don't remember your birth. Whoever gave you love

> and affection in the beginning was your mother and to whosoever

she

> pointed out was your father! How will you prove that Mr So and So

is

> your father ? THERE IS NO WAY ANYBODY CAN PROVE BASED ON HIS

> KNOWLEDGE THAT HE IS SON OF MR SO AND SO

>

> I repeat no way! This is a fact. Anybody can raise a separate

query

> on this. You have to accept only in the beginning. Later on the

> knowledge comes. It is your acceptance level which opens the door

of

> knowledge in life. When you accept that you are son of so and so,

> that acceptance keeps strengthening in you and when you become

adult

> or old , your talking, walking styles, your physique or mannerism

> start resembling to your father ! First you have to accept. You

> accept first that alphabet A comes before alphabet B, later on you

> may become a Professor of English language. You have to accept

first

> that one plus one is two- later on you can get a Doctorate in

> mathematics! Why one plus one is 2 and not 3? Why do you pronounce

A

> as A and not as B? You accepted first. Later on you became

> knowledgeable! Just as you accepted someone to be your father, you

> have to first accept God also. Later on all explanations and

logics

> will flow. You cant establish by knowledge the identity of your

own

> father, where is the question then of establishing

> the eternal father , the God? Same is for Gita also which is the

> voice of that God only- whose identity you cant establish based on

> your knowledge. God is beyond knowledge. God or Gita or our

fathers

> all are matter of belief and acceptance. Yes Gita is a matter of

> acceptance! What is wrong with that? If you start making a list-

you

> will find uncountable things in life which you accepted first. We

> shall deal with it later on with specific reference.

>

> Jai Shree Krishna

>

> Vyas N B

>

> -

> Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

>

> Very good question, " One has studied Gita for some time and

believes

> that it has absolute truth, but how do you explain to someone else

> logically that Gita has the truth? "

>

> The way I understand is that belief in truth has a place in

> organized religions. However the truth as taught in Gita or Veda

or

> other such scriptures is to be experienced. The teaching is about

> the reality of " I " , the world, and God, and above all how they are

> related to each other. Simply belief in the truth will not work in

> this case as it is not organized around God, the truth. Gita is

not

> dogmatic. Many possibilities are explained rather than preached

> specific. When one's belief is replaced with knowing

experientially,

> one knows how to explain to others!

>

> Second difficulty is that the experience of God is unlike all

other

> experiences which are all objective knowledge through sense

organs,

> mind and intellect. All such experiences are limited in scope. God

> is that Knowingness itself through which everything else is known

to

> exist in the first place and that which cannot be objectified,

When

> objectified, God becomes limited object of our belief. Belief in

God

> takes one up to a certain point, never to final salvation..

>

> Lord Krishna is speaking unspeakable only because we need to

> communicate to ohers with a full knowledge that it is only a

pointer

> to truth. One has to walk accordingly.

>

> Such being the case, my suggestion would be to explain these above

> points first. Then one has to study with open mind, asking

> questions, doubting, and not resting until answers become

> convictions and resonate within oneself. True Understanding of

> verses culminate into bursts of joy and satisfaction. This is a

test

> of experience of truth. In this regard help of like minded

friends,

> realized teacher, and platform such as this group is highly

> recommended. The one to whom we want to explain has to be

interested

> in truth and approach us to have a meaningful explanation.

>

> Namaskars...Pratap

> (Pratap Bhatt)

>

> -

> Dear seeker of permanent truths,

>

> The physical, subtle and causal Truths are found by two methods

viz.

> either Inductive or Deductive. Inductive methods are normally

> applied in physical sciences and scientific findings go on

changing.

> Newtonian Physics of inert matter has vastly changed as matter is

> now having unsuspected vitality. Even steel feels fatigue. Science

> once said Earth is static and Sun is moving, now Sceince has

> accepted Sun is stationary and earth is moving. Biology is

changing

> every day.

>

> The permanent truths found through deductive methods known to

human

> soul (apriori knowledge) contained in Vedas, Bhagavd Gita and

> Upanishads have been challenged, criticised and even people like

> great materialists Charvakas said it was going back to the ancient

> period. BUT till date not proved wrong even by the great

scientists

> of any age-past and present. On the contrary even Newton, Einstein

> and many others confirrmed about the existence of Supreme Reality.

> Einstein even put a board outside his laboratory " Thou art That " .

> and said God does not play dice.

>

> Deductive method is based on Metaphysics (beyond Physics/matter)

> which Bhagavd Gita says is the supreme science. The rsis and

munnies

> (metaphysicists and wandering sages)of yore got these permanent

> truths through their omniscient souls. Vedic truths in regard to

> matter are now being proved even in the laboratory of scientists

> relating to atom, sub atomic particles, physical sciences. But

> truths relating to subtle matters like subtle divine Nature,

> location of subtle instruments in human body like Vivek (power of

> discernment, Ego, Buddhi (intellect), manas (inward looking mind),

> physical scientist can never find. They only know about maaterial

> instruments in the human body like senses, sense organs etc.

>

> If truths contained in Vedas and Bhagavad Gita are to be accepted

on

> blind faith, it is better not to accept and one should continue

> facing material happiness or sorrows in this vast turbulent sea of

> matter. But one who is convinced of the much higher deductive

> methods of finding truths, will accept Bhagavad Gita and Vedas as

> Shruti - revealed through the human soul which is subtle particle

of

> the Supreme Soul (Parmatma).

> with kind regards,

>

> P.K.Sabhlok

>

> -

-

> Dear TKach.

>

> I think the Moderator would/may respond to this one query. Staying

> with the group's exchanges so far, would have already shed some

> light on these Truths.

>

> To me as a sadhak; A real " believer's " is he whose conviction is

> fully realised and becomes one with it. It is not about blind

> faith.

>

> Even the scientist person like Newton in a question of him being

the

> greatest person, came out stating that " people say I know so so

> much; but in fact my knowledge is just like an atom of dust at the

> sea-shore...while I have so much to gain the knowledge ... " . The

> Science or seeking scientific reasons being only or related to

> physics or a form and being limited - cannot in anyway define the

> omni-present and all-prevading GOD.

>

> This subject is of HEART before the BRAIN.

>

> Best Regards

>

> Kishin Chandiramani

>

> -

--

> Dear Sadak,

>

> Geetha starts, " EITHI UPANATHSHU " . That means Geetha is juice of

> Upanashids/Vedas.

>

> From my personal view the Geetha is Do`s and Dont`s. Rules laid to

> guide one from human to divinity. Once human level raises to

> divinity, he becomes realized in conscience level.

>

> If one believes Geetha and strictly PRACTICES what Krishna says,

> that person becomes " Gunaa Theethan " , as Bagavan himself said. The

> question any one of you can ask yourself, " Am I practicing basic

> princlples of Geetha, speaking truth (alignment of thought, word

and

> deed at the conscience level), seeing Bagavan (God Consciousness)

in

> all living creatures, getting up early in morning and atleast

> thinking of Bagavan, controling senses - tongue in eating (Bagavan

> said in Geetha how Gunas affect a person due to food) and in

talking

> (Not causing the least pain by words spoken), Bagavan

says, " Indriya

> (Organs of actions) control. Do we do this?

>

> After this comes Bagavan saying, " Kama yeshu- Krodha yeshu etc " .

> From desire comes anger, from anger comes greed etc. Simply by

> understanding these words through vivek (discriminative faculty)

one

> can become calms and experience Ananda (it is bliss, with no

> opposite, it is not happiness). The opposity of Happiness is

> sorrow, such as health and sickess, so on. But for Ananda there is

> no opposite. Some people just by reading Bagavath Geetha feel

happy,

> then what to speak of application in one's life; Imagine the glory.

>

> Coming to scientific explanation, Geetha says, " Prana, Samana etc "

5

> pranas, which scientist accepts 5 elements of air we breath. Over

> night kept food forments and produces certain chemical change next

> day says Geetha. Scientist say food kept in store for a night and

> used next day causes surge in immune system. But Geetha has gone

> much deeper than scientist by says how our brain is affected.

>

> There is everything in Geetha for the whole creation. But one does

> not make the effort to read and deeply contemplate on hidden

truths.

>

> Now coming to Sri Krishna: HE had 108 Sidhis, able to lift

mountain,

> kill demons, bring back the dead son of HIS Guru Sandipan`s dead

son

> to life. HIS teaching gives more insight about human way of living

> that could elevate to Moksha. In HIS life time were there any

> mistakes? HE is therefore believed by saints as " Jagath GURU " .

>

> Sri Krishna says, that one needs to under go several birth to

start

> to say " Om Namo Narayanaya " . So the ones who do not believe in HIM

> is our brothers/sisters are on the way striving to reach that

level.

> Therefore there should be no dislike/hatred to be shown to any

> persons, as Sri Krishna says, " See ME in all creation " . One may

> believe in Geetha but if one should have even in conscience level

a

> small dislike on the person who disbelieves Sri Krishna/ Geetha,

> then such a person is not true Visnavite.

>

> B.Sathyanarayan

>

> , " sadhak_insight "

> <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> >

> > Haribol!!

> >

> > Can anyone explain why we should believe in the Gita or for that

> > matter the Vedas?

> >

> > I've been studying Bhagavad Gita for some time, and I believe

> everything

> > that is there is the absolute truth, but how do you explain to

> someone

> > else that this is the truth? It is not enough to say " it comes

from

> > Krsna " " just accept Krsna " . It has to be a more scientific and

> thorough

> > explanation, do you know what I mean?

> >

> > I'd like to be able to explain to someone why this is the truth,

> how do

> > we know the real source !

> >

> > Is there anything in the Gita that provides scientific view /

> > explanation or anything that addresses the Origin of the Vedas /

> Gita ?

> >

> > Hare Krsna!! Thanks.

> >

> > Daniel Tkach

> >

> > FROM THE MODERATOR

> >

> > GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES:

> > The Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify their doubts

> > related to Gitaji shlokas. To ensure that both the questions and

> the

> > responses are focused, pointed and brief, the guidelines for

Gita-

> Talk

> > discussions are being modified and are being sent to you.

> >

> > The following are the guidelines for Gita-Talk discussions.

> >

> > GUIDELINES FOR POSTING A QUESTION:

> >

> > 1. The group is focused on the Holy Gitaji and clarifying any

> doubts,

> > therefore only questions that pertain to Gitaji will be posted

in

> the

> > future.

> >

> > 2. Please restrict the number of questions asked to only one at

a

> time.

> >

> > 3. Making reference of Gitaji shloka is compulsory - at least

once

> in

> > the question.

> >

> > 4. Please be specific with the question, relating the practical

> > difficulties being faced by the Sadhak. Specifics around, where

is

> the

> > sadhak facing obstacles in his spiritual journey, in the

teachings

> of

> > Geetaji, in principles laid down by Swamiji or other Mahatamas

are

> > highly recommended to be included.

> >

> > 5. General questions will not be considered for future posting.

> > e.g. " suicide " " solving world hunger " etc.

> >

> > GUIDELINES FOR POSTING A RESPONSE:

> >

> > 1. The group is focused on the Holy Gitaji, therefore, only

> responses

> > which further clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will be

posted.

> >

> > 2. Making reference of Gitaji shloka is highly encouraged - at

> least

> > once in the response. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or

> other

> > scriptures to substantiate your response.

> >

> > 3. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting

> > sadhaka's time. Under no circustance the answer should exceed

say

> one

> > page at the most (500 words or so).

> >

> > 4. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the

> > extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas

> >

> > 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only.

> >

> > 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other

> > organizations.

> >

> > 7. Complete reproduction of texts from any book is strongly

> > discouraged, however references may be made of the book or

author

> (but

> > not links to other sites).

> >

> > 8. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone

> > number, address etc.

> >

> > 9. Please do not address the response to a particular individual

> since

> > the message is going to the entire group.

> >

> > 10. Due to the large readership, only those responses will be

> posted

> > which are in line with the general philosophy of taking Shrimad

> > Bhagavad Gita as the reference.

> >

> > 11. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if

> content is

> > unclear for distribution or not directly related to the question

> being

> > asked.

> >

> > 12. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth,

> > westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use of only

> > Sanskrit words, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit

> > bracketed wherever possible.

> >

> > MODERATOR

> > Ram Ram

> >

>

June 25, 2008

Hari Om

Re Saadhak Daniel `s Query- Reply to Q no 2

At the outset I must clarify that a thing which is subject matter of

belief/faith/acceptance/trust can also be scientific. It is not

necessary ( as we generally believe) that whatever is subject

matter of belief cant be scientific!

IS THERE SCIENTIFIC EXPLANATION FOR GITA?

" Scientific " explanation/method/view ! " Science " ! Before I deal

with these two terms with reference to Gita/ Vedas , let me tell you

that there is one more similar word in English language

called " SCIENTISM " ! " Scientism " means as per English Dictionary -

" The tendency to reduce all reality and experience to mathematical

descriptions of physical and chemical phenomena " !! When people

reflected this tendency with reference to topics other

than " physical and chemical phenomena " under the garb of " Science "

or " Scientific " , the " Saturday Review " Editors got wild and they

issued a powerful statement- so powerful that it now finds place in

Dictionaries of English Language- under " SCIENTISM " . The statement

said – " Those of us who think that Scientific method is applicable

to political problems are apt to be told, rather sharply, that we

are talking " scientism " . This statement is relevant for the topic

under reference and applies mutatis mutandis on any subject

including subject matter of belief i. e. on any subject which is

not related with " physical and chemical phenomena " ! However my

intention here is not to say that Gita is not scientific. Here I am

answering partly also Q no 4 of Brother Daniel.

What is " SCIENCE " ? The dictionary meaning of " science " - (a)

knowledge based on observed facts and tested truths arranged in an

orderly system; (b) a branch of such knowledge dealing with

phenomena of the universe and their laws; © skill based on

training and practice ; (d) SEARCH FOR TRUTH ; (e) systematic,

accurate, exact. The dictionary meaning of " SCIENTIFIC METHOD " – An

orderly method consisting of identifying a problem , gathering all

the pertinent data,,formulating a hypothesis, performing

experiments, interpreting results and drawing conclusions. The

branches of science are Natural sciences, Social sciences, Applied

Sciences, Physical sciences, Natural Sciences etc etc. That is all

what is called SCIENCE or SCIENTIFIC METHOD/EXPLANATION/VIEW What

else it means?

Gita and Vedas not only fall into each and every yardstick of the

aforesaid definitions but are far superior to them.

Everything in Gita is scientific only. There is nothing in Gita

which can be called illogical, inaccurate or irrational. There is no

inconsistency in the 700 verses with each other. All the laws,

principles, theories stated therein are proved by the experience. It

is in perfect sync with theories of Veda, Upanishads and other

eternal scriptures of Hindu Dharma. It explains everything. There

are many things for which no where else the explanation is available

but in Gita and allied scriptures.The explanations, interpretations,

concepts, laws, processes enumerated in Gita of the Soul,

equanimity, Yoga, Surrender, God, Jeeva(self), Jagat (universe,

world) , Gunas (attributes), Maya (illusion), Bondage, Liberation,

Conscience, Nature (prakrati), Gross/Subtle and causal bodies, types

or variations of Prana ( air operating in body), Duty , Desires ,

Mind, Intellect, Ego , Sorrow, Happiness, Karma, Doer, Law of Karma,

Heaven, Hell etc etc cannot be disputed when put on the yardsticks

of a person's direct experience level and logic. They are exact,

accurate and precise. They are nothing but truthful. The Laws,

Principles or Formulae given in Gita are infallible! There are

people who practiced the principles of Gita and reaped the fruits

exactly as stated in Gita. The principles given in Gita get never

outdated- unlike the principles of science., The reasons of

pleasures and pains are perfectly given- you cant argue them out!

The entire universe and its phenomena is covered in Gita. Not only

the present life but the state after death has been covered. The

methods of eradication of pain from human life given in Gita are so

accurate that if you practice them there is no chance that you can

fail in the same. The principles and practice of Self/ God

Realisation are given to the perfection. Various alternatives and

perfect processes have been given of the paths leading to

liberation, and to God. ( and for that purpose of the paths leading

to hell and heaven). Laws are explained, the exceptions are given.

Just as the scientific formulas operate in day to day life with the

precision, the formulas given in Gita also operate in day to day

life with precision. Gita is larger than any science. It addresses/

explains those issues which science till today has not been able to

address. Like in Science, In Gita also the formulas given are

proven-- by your direct experiences. To compare Gita with science

is disrespect to Gita. Science is one of the many many ways of

explaining or proving a given scenario and that science is more

useful in terms of material or physical or chemical phenomena. But

Gita extends much beyond what science can ever imagine. The best

proof is your own experience. No body till date has been able to

negate or argue out against what is stated in Gita. We all have a

choice always , however, to believe or not. The Yoga process of

Gita ( control of Prana) and Patanjali Yoga Darshan has been

practiced by the millions of Saints, Sages, Rishis, ordinary people,

Yogis, Saadhaks in the past and now also. None disputed their

results. The Praanayaam explained in Gita is even today practiced

by millions of people across the globe. What more arguments are

needed to prove something to be scientific. You certainly cannot

satisfy those who indulge in " SCIENTISM " . Because to get satisfied

also is a subject matter of belief/acceptance !!!

Jai Shree Krishna.

Vyas N B

-------------------------------

Dear Sadak,

With Ref to Daniel quiry.

In Mathura there is place (Jail) where Krishna was born, HIS nanda

Gokul is there, Kans (Kamsa Krishna uncle) kingdom is there. The

names of persons with whom Krishna dealt is there with there

residential proof. Sri Krishna where HE lived Dwaraka is there

submerged in sea coast.

Now regards scientific comparision: HE (sri Krishna) said about-

human body system, food, inhaling process, mental changes due to

vasanas, how one` s destiny is working scientifically system of

birth and death, purpose of birth, six stages of changes that all

living beings undergo (in sanskrit word starting from Parimalathe

(appear) -to- Asthi (death) ), how to reach divinity, six mental

levels starting from Kaama-Krodha-Madha etc which today science

says mental balance is important for health, HE taught how to

behave with teacher, friend (Kuchela), oponant Duryodhan, parents

etc. HE also taught complete detachment if one contemplates on HIS

life patern. HE could forsee the fate of Jarasand whose fate to die

in the hands of Bheema. HE could know anyone intellect.Example: HE

acted to have headache and said it could be cured by the dust of HIS

baktha. Narada, HIS 8 wives, and other refused to dust when HE

asked. Then HE said get the dust of Gopies. Later everyone relized

their mistakes.

Faith can move mountains. To day in Kaliyuga everything is doubted.

One doubt is enough, that one will multiply to infinite completely

removing peace of mind. These are said in Geetha if one reads

carfully.

B.Sathyanarayan

-------------------------------

Hari Om

Dear Sri Daniel

I was intrigued by your query and therefore decided to test myself on

the same lines.

Being a Science student and definitely having a bias towards

Mathematics, I have always sought to reduce any concept or idea to

simple rules.

I am reminded of a Mathematics term " Axiom " . It means " A self-

evident principle or one that is accepted as true without proof as

the basis for argument; a postulate " .

Can Gita be reduced to an Axiom. I often wonder !

St. Augustine said, " Faith is to believe what you do not see; the

reward of this faith is to see what you believe " .

The route to achieving the goal as prescribed in Gita is to pursue

diligently what is said in Gita, taking it as an Axiom, and at every

stage experiencing the change within.

Have I experienced any change? Yes.

I have seen changes in myself with reference to Anger, I have seen

the benefits of Acceptance, and am sure several of the Sadhakas

experience the changes within which gives them the confidence that

they are in THE PATH.

Thanks for the query

Hari Om

Jayaraman

------------------------------

All these explanations are in a stand point of Intellect only.....

Do you believe that you have Father and Grand Father or Great Grand

Father.. or Great Great Grand Father?

Do you believe you exist? Then all our Sastras also exist...

I got a big laugh when our present remote sensing Sonia asked about

Sri Rama's Birth Certificate, what a foolishness.....

All these are in the argument level. Can you show you have Brains..

I need proof. I need to see the brain physically not through image

scanning!!

May GOD Bless

Krishna Prasad

--------------------------------

, " sadhak_insight "

<sadhak_insight wrote:

>

> Dear Daniel

> There are three words a) information b) knowledge c) truth.

> Information is empirical or a typical case like history, or court

> case with names and places and details of observervation. Akbar

and

> Ashoka both are rulers but student of history can not substitue

one

> with another.

>

> Knowledge is not information but a model or theoretical/logical

> model which is not dependent on a given history or experiment but

is

> always there in some form or the other. Physics is not a given

> history but ever present (sanaatan, nitya) and f = force, g=

> gravity, v= velocity are symbol of characters which takes any

names

> and places in value. Physics can thus, predict any information

> without specific names. This 'physics' which is nitya, sanaatan is

> thus an example of knowledge.

>

> Satya (truth) is one step beyond the knowledge. It is universal

> knowledge and therefore known naturally to all f us without

effort,

> and common to all. Because it is common, there cannot exist

> differences in opinon, and thus no conflict. Gandhi therefore

> defined truth in its property of non voilence. In other words, if

> understanding of Bhagwat Gita makes one contemplative and

> independent, and free from anexiety, conflict then this is Truth.

>

> Science is not truth but a way to truth. This is a know how of

> already known things. If there is no truth, there can not be

> sciences explaining that. Thus, truth is the aim of all

knowledges.

> It can only be realized but when it comes to explanation, it

becomes

> sciences.

>

> I cannot write how many times in Bhagwat Gita, satya (Truth) and

> gyan (Knowledge) are used differently, and accurate absolutely.

>

> Best regards

> K G

> (Krishna Gopal)

> -------------------------------

> Jai Shri Krishna,

>

> Re: Sadhak Daniel's query - Q 1

>

> Vyas Ji has beautifully addressed Sadhak Daniel's query on

> Acceptance.

>

> Acceptance is FAR MORE Superior than learning (knowledge).

Whatever

> one accepts in life, one never forgets, whereas anything learnt

can

> always be forgotten, partially or completely. If you are woken up

in

> the middle of the night and asked what is your marital status, you

> will not need even a second to think before answering this

question

> because you have firmly accepted that you are bachelor, married or

> widower.

>

> At least in the Indian context, a chaste (Pativrata) woman,

accepts

> her relationship with the person she marries just by the saying of

> the Priest performing the matrimonial rituals. The acceptance is

> instant and so firm that even after say 50 years of the death of

her

> husband she becomes vigilant whenever anyone takes her husband's

> name. She can never forget the acceptance of the man as her

husband.

> A Suhagan (a married woman with her husband alive) does not see

> herself as 'Widow' even in her dreams - that is the power of

> ACCEPTANCE.

>

> We all will vouch for the fact that many things we learn in life

> (knowledge acquired), we tend to forget with time. BUT no one

> forgets whatever one accepts once.

>

> Use of underestimating words such as " simply " is apt at best to

> learning (knowledge) only. Acceptance is on top at 100 on on a

scale

> where learning is at 1.

>

> Narayan Narayan

>

> Rajendra J Bohra

>

> --------------------------------

> Why we should believe in the Gita or for that matter the Vedas?

>

> Belief in anything is useless in itself. Yet, belief alone can let

> anyone start one's journey toward anything including spirituality.

>

> You cannot derive benefit from anything – be it Gita or Vedas or

> cough medicine – unless you have a belief to start with. It is our

> habit to ignore things unless we have a belief. Therefore, one

> should have belief in something if one wants to derive benefits

from

> anything. Belief is the key to the door for any body of knowledge

> including Vedanta.

>

> If we make our beleifs our path we won't go anywhere just like a

> blind man following another blind man. Belief cannot reap the

fruits

> from anything unless we adapt to the path we choose. Threfore, it

is

> what you understand and realize from the scripts that matters for

> our progress. Carrying out anything without understanding is even

> worse than not doing it since we could channel our resources to

what

> helps us. Understanding is the key to tread the path we choose

> including spiritual practice.

>

> But, even if we understand great meanings out of the scripts, it is

> of no use unless it is adapted in our life. No matter what we

> understand in our thought process, we continue to fidget in our

> lives contrary to our very understanding unless the knowledge

> perculates to our atomic existence in its subtlety and clarity. It

> is what we are that matters at any point of time – before the path

> wherein no belief has dawned, in the path wherein the belief has

> kicked off the process, and all along the path wherein the

knowledge

> trickles into our living, in its purity. After all what we would be

> matters no matter we took guidance from an Upanishad or from a Veda

> or from The Gita or from any other scriptures or from The Life as

> such.

>

> The idea is to be at peace. The litmus test for our state in the

> path is the happiness. Anything that deviates us from our natural

> state of peace and happiness is reveals the play of our ignorance

> and alerts us to explore and fix the same at once. To jump start

> ourselves in such a process we should believe in Vedas. To keep in

> pace with the process, we should understand the Vedas. To be one

with

> the process, we should be the Vedas.

>

> Veda means Knowledge. Knowledge means Bliss. Bliss is The Truth. We

> should be grateful to the Faith as it put us in the path of

> Knowledge. We should be grateful to the Knowledge as it marches us

> toward the Bliss. We should be grateful to the Bliss as it keeps us

> with the Truth. All are excellent as far as they are correctly

> placed and practiced.

>

> Respects.

>

> Naga Narayana.

>

> -

--

>

> Jai hree Krishna Pryia Bhandus

>

> Based on my understanding, Gita/Vedas are the origins of LANGUAGE,

> MATHS AND SCIENCE. Here is an example of Math and the number ZERO.

> Origins from SANYAS into Arabic SIFER to Latin CIFER and english

> ZERO.

>

> As I understand, the concept of Nothingness came from Vedic

thought

> as well. SANATAN DHARMA represents Eternal and ultimate TRUTH.

> These Eternal Truths existed even before creation, just like

gravity

> existed even before Newton labeled it as gravity, when he observed

> the apple falling from a tree.

>

> Jai Hind

> Jayesh A Patel

> London

>

> , " sadhak_insight "

> <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> >

> > Hari Om

> >

> > Re Saadhak Daniel's Queries - Reply to Question No 1

> >

> > There are too many queries emanating in reality. First let me

> > summarise them. Then a separate reply shall be given for each

> query.

> > In the end we shall conclude- so that time and space

requirements

> of

> > Moderator also remain complied with.

> >

> > Q 1 Is Gita simply a matter of Acceptance?

> >

> > Q 2 Is there scientific explanation ( other than acceptance) ?

> >

> > Q 3 Why we should believe in the Gita or for that purpose the

> > Vedas?

> >

> > Q 4 How do you explain to some one that whatever is explained

in

> > Gita is truthful ?

> >

> > Q 5 How do we know the real source of Gita?

> >

> > Q 6 Is there anything in the Gita that provides scientific

view /

> > explanation or anything that addresses the Origin of Vedas/ Gita?

> >

> > Now these are the six questions, which Brother Daniel has asked,

> at

> > the same time acknowledging that he has been studying Gita and

> > believes that everything stated therein is truth. He wants now

to

> > make others believe that.

> >

> > In this posting first I will take Q no 1. Every day I shall

> address

> > one question and in the end shall conclude.

> >

> > IS GITA SIMPLY A MATTER OF ACCEPTANCE?

> >

> > Everything in this world basically is a matter of acceptance

only.

> > Why to single out Gita? Take your birth for example. Can you say

> > based on the " knowledge " - your own personal knowledge -as to

who

> is

> > your father? You don't remember your birth. Whoever gave you

love

> > and affection in the beginning was your mother and to whosoever

> she

> > pointed out was your father! How will you prove that Mr So and

So

> is

> > your father ? THERE IS NO WAY ANYBODY CAN PROVE BASED ON HIS

> > KNOWLEDGE THAT HE IS SON OF MR SO AND SO

> >

> > I repeat no way! This is a fact. Anybody can raise a separate

> query

> > on this. You have to accept only in the beginning. Later on the

> > knowledge comes. It is your acceptance level which opens the

door

> of

> > knowledge in life. When you accept that you are son of so and

so,

> > that acceptance keeps strengthening in you and when you become

> adult

> > or old , your talking, walking styles, your physique or

mannerism

> > start resembling to your father ! First you have to accept. You

> > accept first that alphabet A comes before alphabet B, later on

you

> > may become a Professor of English language. You have to accept

> first

> > that one plus one is two- later on you can get a Doctorate in

> > mathematics! Why one plus one is 2 and not 3? Why do you

pronounce

> A

> > as A and not as B? You accepted first. Later on you became

> > knowledgeable! Just as you accepted someone to be your father,

you

> > have to first accept God also. Later on all explanations and

> logics

> > will flow. You cant establish by knowledge the identity of your

> own

> > father, where is the question then of establishing

> > the eternal father , the God? Same is for Gita also which is the

> > voice of that God only- whose identity you cant establish based

on

> > your knowledge. God is beyond knowledge. God or Gita or our

> fathers

> > all are matter of belief and acceptance. Yes Gita is a matter

of

> > acceptance! What is wrong with that? If you start making a list-

> you

> > will find uncountable things in life which you accepted first.

We

> > shall deal with it later on with specific reference.

> >

> > Jai Shree Krishna

> >

> > Vyas N B

> >

> > --------------------------------

--

> > Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

> >

> > Very good question, " One has studied Gita for some time and

> believes

> > that it has absolute truth, but how do you explain to someone

else

> > logically that Gita has the truth? "

> >

> > The way I understand is that belief in truth has a place in

> > organized religions. However the truth as taught in Gita or Veda

> or

> > other such scriptures is to be experienced. The teaching is

about

> > the reality of " I " , the world, and God, and above all how they

are

> > related to each other. Simply belief in the truth will not work

in

> > this case as it is not organized around God, the truth. Gita is

> not

> > dogmatic. Many possibilities are explained rather than preached

> > specific. When one's belief is replaced with knowing

> experientially,

> > one knows how to explain to others!

> >

> > Second difficulty is that the experience of God is unlike all

> other

> > experiences which are all objective knowledge through sense

> organs,

> > mind and intellect. All such experiences are limited in scope.

God

> > is that Knowingness itself through which everything else is

known

> to

> > exist in the first place and that which cannot be objectified,

> When

> > objectified, God becomes limited object of our belief. Belief in

> God

> > takes one up to a certain point, never to final salvation..

> >

> > Lord Krishna is speaking unspeakable only because we need to

> > communicate to ohers with a full knowledge that it is only a

> pointer

> > to truth. One has to walk accordingly.

> >

> > Such being the case, my suggestion would be to explain these

above

> > points first. Then one has to study with open mind, asking

> > questions, doubting, and not resting until answers become

> > convictions and resonate within oneself. True Understanding of

> > verses culminate into bursts of joy and satisfaction. This is a

> test

> > of experience of truth. In this regard help of like minded

> friends,

> > realized teacher, and platform such as this group is highly

> > recommended. The one to whom we want to explain has to be

> interested

> > in truth and approach us to have a meaningful explanation.

> >

> > Namaskars...Pratap

> > (Pratap Bhatt)

> >

> > --------------------------------

--

> > Dear seeker of permanent truths,

> >

> > The physical, subtle and causal Truths are found by two methods

> viz.

> > either Inductive or Deductive. Inductive methods are normally

> > applied in physical sciences and scientific findings go on

> changing.

> > Newtonian Physics of inert matter has vastly changed as matter

is

> > now having unsuspected vitality. Even steel feels fatigue.

Science

> > once said Earth is static and Sun is moving, now Sceince has

> > accepted Sun is stationary and earth is moving. Biology is

> changing

> > every day.

> >

> > The permanent truths found through deductive methods known to

> human

> > soul (apriori knowledge) contained in Vedas, Bhagavd Gita and

> > Upanishads have been challenged, criticised and even people like

> > great materialists Charvakas said it was going back to the

ancient

> > period. BUT till date not proved wrong even by the great

> scientists

> > of any age-past and present. On the contrary even Newton,

Einstein

> > and many others confirrmed about the existence of Supreme

Reality.

> > Einstein even put a board outside his laboratory " Thou art

That " .

> > and said God does not play dice.

> >

> > Deductive method is based on Metaphysics (beyond Physics/matter)

> > which Bhagavd Gita says is the supreme science. The rsis and

> munnies

> > (metaphysicists and wandering sages)of yore got these permanent

> > truths through their omniscient souls. Vedic truths in regard to

> > matter are now being proved even in the laboratory of scientists

> > relating to atom, sub atomic particles, physical sciences. But

> > truths relating to subtle matters like subtle divine Nature,

> > location of subtle instruments in human body like Vivek (power

of

> > discernment, Ego, Buddhi (intellect), manas (inward looking

mind),

> > physical scientist can never find. They only know about

maaterial

> > instruments in the human body like senses, sense organs etc.

> >

> > If truths contained in Vedas and Bhagavad Gita are to be

accepted

> on

> > blind faith, it is better not to accept and one should continue

> > facing material happiness or sorrows in this vast turbulent sea

of

> > matter. But one who is convinced of the much higher deductive

> > methods of finding truths, will accept Bhagavad Gita and Vedas

as

> > Shruti - revealed through the human soul which is subtle

particle

> of

> > the Supreme Soul (Parmatma).

> > with kind regards,

> >

> > P.K.Sabhlok

> >

> > --------------------------------

--

> -

> > Dear TKach.

> >

> > I think the Moderator would/may respond to this one query.

Staying

> > with the group's exchanges so far, would have already shed some

> > light on these Truths.

> >

> > To me as a sadhak; A real " believer's " is he whose conviction is

> > fully realised and becomes one with it. It is not about blind

> > faith.

> >

> > Even the scientist person like Newton in a question of him being

> the

> > greatest person, came out stating that " people say I know so so

> > much; but in fact my knowledge is just like an atom of dust at

the

> > sea-shore...while I have so much to gain the knowledge ... " . The

> > Science or seeking scientific reasons being only or related to

> > physics or a form and being limited - cannot in anyway define

the

> > omni-present and all-prevading GOD.

> >

> > This subject is of HEART before the BRAIN.

> >

> > Best Regards

> >

> > Kishin Chandiramani

> >

> > --------------------------------

--

> --

> > Dear Sadak,

> >

> > Geetha starts, " EITHI UPANATHSHU " . That means Geetha is juice of

> > Upanashids/Vedas.

> >

> > From my personal view the Geetha is Do`s and Dont`s. Rules laid

to

> > guide one from human to divinity. Once human level raises to

> > divinity, he becomes realized in conscience level.

> >

> > If one believes Geetha and strictly PRACTICES what Krishna says,

> > that person becomes " Gunaa Theethan " , as Bagavan himself said.

The

> > question any one of you can ask yourself, " Am I practicing basic

> > princlples of Geetha, speaking truth (alignment of thought, word

> and

> > deed at the conscience level), seeing Bagavan (God Consciousness)

> in

> > all living creatures, getting up early in morning and atleast

> > thinking of Bagavan, controling senses - tongue in eating

(Bagavan

> > said in Geetha how Gunas affect a person due to food) and in

> talking

> > (Not causing the least pain by words spoken), Bagavan

> says, " Indriya

> > (Organs of actions) control. Do we do this?

> >

> > After this comes Bagavan saying, " Kama yeshu- Krodha yeshu etc " .

> > From desire comes anger, from anger comes greed etc. Simply by

> > understanding these words through vivek (discriminative faculty)

> one

> > can become calms and experience Ananda (it is bliss, with no

> > opposite, it is not happiness). The opposity of Happiness is

> > sorrow, such as health and sickess, so on. But for Ananda there

is

> > no opposite. Some people just by reading Bagavath Geetha feel

> happy,

> > then what to speak of application in one's life; Imagine the

glory.

> >

> > Coming to scientific explanation, Geetha says, " Prana, Samana

etc "

> 5

> > pranas, which scientist accepts 5 elements of air we breath.

Over

> > night kept food forments and produces certain chemical change

and

> > used next day causes surge in immune system. But Geetha has gone

> > much deeper than scientist by says how our brain is affected.

> >

> > There is everything in Geetha for the whole creation. But one

does

> > not make the effort to read and deeply contemplate on hidden

> truths.

> >

> > Now coming to Sri Krishna: HE had 108 Sidhis, able to lift

> mountain,

> > kill demons, bring back the dead son of HIS Guru Sandipan`s dead

> son

> > to life. HIS teaching gives more insight about human way of

living

> > that could elevate to Moksha. In HIS life time were there any

> > mistakes? HE is therefore believed by saints as " Jagath GURU " .

> >

> > Sri Krishna says, that one needs to under go several birth to

> start

> > to say " Om Namo Narayanaya " . So the ones who do not believe in

HIM

> > is our brothers/sisters are on the way striving to reach that

> level.

> > Therefore there should be no dislike/hatred to be shown to any

> > persons, as Sri Krishna says, " See ME in all creation " . One may

> > believe in Geetha but if one should have even in conscience

level

> a

> > small dislike on the person who disbelieves Sri Krishna/ Geetha,

> > then such a person is not true Visnavite.

> >

> > B.Sathyanarayan

> > --------------------------------

-

> >

> > , " sadhak_insight "

> > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Haribol!!

> > >

> > > Can anyone explain why we should believe in the Gita or for

that

> > > matter the Vedas?

> > >

> > > I've been studying Bhagavad Gita for some time, and I believe

> > everything

> > > that is there is the absolute truth, but how do you explain to

> > someone

> > > else that this is the truth? It is not enough to say " it comes

> from

> > > Krsna " " just accept Krsna " . It has to be a more scientific and

> > thorough

> > > explanation, do you know what I mean?

> > >

> > > I'd like to be able to explain to someone why this is the

truth,

> > how do

> > > we know the real source !

> > >

> > > Is there anything in the Gita that provides scientific view /

> > > explanation or anything that addresses the Origin of the

Vedas /

> > Gita ?

> > >

> > > Hare Krsna!! Thanks.

> > >

> > > Daniel Tkach

> > >

> > > FROM THE MODERATOR

> > >

> > > GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES:

> > > The Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify their

doubts

> > > related to Gitaji shlokas. To ensure that both the questions

and

> > the

> > > responses are focused, pointed and brief, the guidelines for

> Gita-

> > Talk

> > > discussions are being modified and are being sent to you.

> > >

> > > The following are the guidelines for Gita-Talk discussions.

> > >

> > > GUIDELINES FOR POSTING A QUESTION:

> > >

> > > 1. The group is focused on the Holy Gitaji and clarifying any

> > doubts,

> > > therefore only questions that pertain to Gitaji will be posted

> in

> > the

> > > future.

> > >

> > > 2. Please restrict the number of questions asked to only one

at

> a

> > time.

> > >

> > > 3. Making reference of Gitaji shloka is compulsory - at least

> once

> > in

> > > the question.

> > >

> > > 4. Please be specific with the question, relating the practical

> > > difficulties being faced by the Sadhak. Specifics around,

where

> is

> > the

> > > sadhak facing obstacles in his spiritual journey, in the

> teachings

> > of

> > > Geetaji, in principles laid down by Swamiji or other Mahatamas

> are

> > > highly recommended to be included.

> > >

> > > 5. General questions will not be considered for future posting.

> > > e.g. " suicide " " solving world hunger " etc.

> > >

> > > GUIDELINES FOR POSTING A RESPONSE:

> > >

> > > 1. The group is focused on the Holy Gitaji, therefore, only

> > responses

> > > which further clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will be

> posted.

> > >

> > > 2. Making reference of Gitaji shloka is highly encouraged - at

> > least

> > > once in the response. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji

or

> > other

> > > scriptures to substantiate your response.

> > >

> > > 3. Please be as concise and to the point as possible,

respecting

> > > sadhaka's time. Under no circustance the answer should exceed

> say

> > one

> > > page at the most (500 words or so).

> > >

> > > 4. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to

the

> > > extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas

> > >

> > > 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only.

> > >

> > > 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other

> > > organizations.

> > >

> > > 7. Complete reproduction of texts from any book is strongly

> > > discouraged, however references may be made of the book or

> author

> > (but

> > > not links to other sites).

> > >

> > > 8. Kindly do not include your personal information such as

phone

> > > number, address etc.

> > >

> > > 9. Please do not address the response to a particular

individual

> > since

> > > the message is going to the entire group.

> > >

> > > 10. Due to the large readership, only those responses will be

> > posted

> > > which are in line with the general philosophy of taking Shrimad

> > > Bhagavad Gita as the reference.

> > >

> > > 11. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if

> > content is

> > > unclear for distribution or not directly related to the

question

> > being

> > > asked.

> > >

> > > 12. Please respond taking into consideration the novices,

youth,

> > > westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use of

only

> > > Sanskrit words, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit

> > > bracketed wherever possible.

> > >

> > > MODERATOR

> > > Ram Ram

> > >

> >

>

June 25, 2008

-Shree Hari-

A person who I had made acquaintance with under strange

circumstances, one day he said, " Mike you should read the Bhagavad

Gita " . He lent me a copy, he knew what it was about. I found that it

was amazing, it explained things to me that I had thought about, and

had experienced, these were things that were almost never dealt with

in western philosophy or science. How is it possible that this book

was able to answer question that laid deep within the psyche of a

person who had nothing to do with the faith behind it?

This was a good few years ago, I am now reading this sacred text

slowly now on line, it has authoritative comments, and I am

allowing it to take me as far and as deep, that it will.

To me 'The Gita' is beyond science. I have long considered that

science is constrained by the dogmas within it.

From my point of view the Bhagvada Gita is not a matter of just

acceptance, it would not ring a bell for someone like me who spent

their life in technology. My faith in it, is based on experience.

With respects and Divine love,

Mike Keenor

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

Dear Daniel, thanks for a very good question!

Gita describes four Yogas to achieve the only goal of human life to

realize the inherent divinity in man by uniting with the Supreme.

The Yoga of Devotion (Bhakti Yoga) is considered a direct, simple

and the best path. To follow this path, starting point is acceptance

and surrender in exclusive love of God. Even though this path starts

with acceptance but eventually it leads to Knowledge of the Supreme

in the end. This fact about the path of devotion as a potent method

to realize the goal, is not unique to Gita or Hindu tradition but is

true for the most wisdom traditions of the world. The importance of

acceptance is brought out by Swamiji Maharaj time & again in his

discourses and has been already captured beautifully by Vyasji's

response (#1).

In science we go from proof to belief, in devotion we go from belief

to proof.

From the stand point of Yoga of Action (Karma Yoga), we do not have

to just accept what is declared in Gita but we can scientifically

verify it first through our own observation and personal experience.

The spiritual truths remain always unchanged, regardless of whether

we accept them or not. These truths have been experienced and

validated by sages and seers over the centuries. For our

satisfaction, we too can validate these spiritual truths through our

own experimentation.

Here are few of the verses from Gita on Karma Yoga to illustrate how

we can apply science to verify the truths in Gita:

Gita 2-62/63

Shows logically, the sequence of events when person gets angry and

the consequence which follow -

" The man dwelling on sense-objects develops attachment for them;

from attachment springs up desire, and from desire (unfulfilled)

ensures anger. From anger arises delusion; from delusion confusion

of memory, from confusion of memory loss of discrimination (Budhi);

from the loss of discrimination, he falls down from his

spiritual goal " .

Gita 2-64

On what should the mind, weaned through from the senses, be placed?

" But a man of disciplined mind, though moving about amongst the

objects of senses under control, free from likes and dislikes,

attains tranquility of mind " .

Gita 2-71

What should the aspirant do so that he may gain access to the

perfect state:

" He who abandons all desires and acts free from longing, without

attachment, egoism, he attains lasting peace " .

Gita 2-56

Pacification of the mind is explained -

" He whose mind is not perturbed by adversity, who does not crave for

temporary happiness, who is free from fondness, fear and anger is

the sage (Muni) of steady wisdom " .

Gita 3-36

Why does an intelligent man commit sin?

Arjuna said: " By what is a man compelled to commit sin, as if driven

by force, even against his will, O Varsneya (Krishna) " .

Gita 3-37

The Blessed Lord said: " The desire born of the mode of passion

(Rajas), is anger, all devouring and most sinful. Know this to be

the enemy here " .

Similarly we can verify with our scientific enquiry many verses in

Gita on Jnana Yoga and Yoga of Self Control, before accepting these

spiritual truths in Gita.

Another question was about the source of Gita, in my humble opinion,

that is only an intellectual exercise, more important question is

can the principles declared in Gita, when applied in our daily life

help to reach the goal!

Humble regards,

Madan Kaura

----------------------------

, " sadhak_insight "

<sadhak_insight wrote:

>

> Hari Om

>

> Re Saadhak Daniel `s Query- Reply to Q no 2

>

> At the outset I must clarify that a thing which is subject matter

of

> belief/faith/acceptance/trust can also be scientific. It is not

> necessary ( as we generally believe) that whatever is subject

> matter of belief cant be scientific!

>

> IS THERE SCIENTIFIC EXPLANATION FOR GITA?

>

> " Scientific " explanation/method/view ! " Science " ! Before I deal

> with these two terms with reference to Gita/ Vedas , let me tell

you

> that there is one more similar word in English language

> called " SCIENTISM " ! " Scientism " means as per English Dictionary -

> " The tendency to reduce all reality and experience to mathematical

> descriptions of physical and chemical phenomena " !! When people

> reflected this tendency with reference to topics other

> than " physical and chemical phenomena " under the garb of " Science "

> or " Scientific " , the " Saturday Review " Editors got wild and they

> issued a powerful statement- so powerful that it now finds place

in

> Dictionaries of English Language- under " SCIENTISM " . The

statement

> said – " Those of us who think that Scientific method is

applicable

> to political problems are apt to be told, rather sharply, that we

> are talking " scientism " . This statement is relevant for the topic

> under reference and applies mutatis mutandis on any subject

> including subject matter of belief i. e. on any subject which is

> not related with " physical and chemical phenomena " ! However my

> intention here is not to say that Gita is not scientific. Here I

am

> answering partly also Q no 4 of Brother Daniel.

>

> What is " SCIENCE " ? The dictionary meaning of " science " - (a)

> knowledge based on observed facts and tested truths arranged in an

> orderly system; (b) a branch of such knowledge dealing with

> phenomena of the universe and their laws; © skill based on

> training and practice ; (d) SEARCH FOR TRUTH ; (e) systematic,

> accurate, exact. The dictionary meaning of " SCIENTIFIC METHOD " –

An

> orderly method consisting of identifying a problem , gathering all

> the pertinent data,,formulating a hypothesis, performing

> experiments, interpreting results and drawing conclusions. The

> branches of science are Natural sciences, Social sciences, Applied

> Sciences, Physical sciences, Natural Sciences etc etc. That is all

> what is called SCIENCE or SCIENTIFIC METHOD/EXPLANATION/VIEW What

> else it means?

>

> Gita and Vedas not only fall into each and every yardstick of the

> aforesaid definitions but are far superior to them.

>

> Everything in Gita is scientific only. There is nothing in Gita

> which can be called illogical, inaccurate or irrational. There is

no

> inconsistency in the 700 verses with each other. All the laws,

> principles, theories stated therein are proved by the experience.

It

> is in perfect sync with theories of Veda, Upanishads and other

> eternal scriptures of Hindu Dharma. It explains everything. There

> are many things for which no where else the explanation is

available

> but in Gita and allied scriptures.The explanations,

interpretations,

> concepts, laws, processes enumerated in Gita of the Soul,

> equanimity, Yoga, Surrender, God, Jeeva(self), Jagat (universe,

> world) , Gunas (attributes), Maya (illusion), Bondage, Liberation,

> Conscience, Nature (prakrati), Gross/Subtle and causal bodies,

types

> or variations of Prana ( air operating in body), Duty , Desires ,

> Mind, Intellect, Ego , Sorrow, Happiness, Karma, Doer, Law of

Karma,

> Heaven, Hell etc etc cannot be disputed when put on the

yardsticks

> of a person's direct experience level and logic. They are exact,

> accurate and precise. They are nothing but truthful. The Laws,

> Principles or Formulae given in Gita are infallible! There are

> people who practiced the principles of Gita and reaped the fruits

> exactly as stated in Gita. The principles given in Gita get never

> outdated- unlike the principles of science., The reasons of

> pleasures and pains are perfectly given- you cant argue them out!

> The entire universe and its phenomena is covered in Gita. Not only

> the present life but the state after death has been covered. The

> methods of eradication of pain from human life given in Gita are

so

> accurate that if you practice them there is no chance that you can

> fail in the same. The principles and practice of Self/ God

> Realisation are given to the perfection. Various alternatives and

> perfect processes have been given of the paths leading to

> liberation, and to God. ( and for that purpose of the paths

leading

> to hell and heaven). Laws are explained, the exceptions are given.

> Just as the scientific formulas operate in day to day life with

the

> precision, the formulas given in Gita also operate in day to day

> life with precision. Gita is larger than any science. It

addresses/

> explains those issues which science till today has not been able

to

> address. Like in Science, In Gita also the formulas given are

> proven-- by your direct experiences. To compare Gita with science

> is disrespect to Gita. Science is one of the many many ways of

> explaining or proving a given scenario and that science is more

> useful in terms of material or physical or chemical phenomena.

But

> Gita extends much beyond what science can ever imagine. The best

> proof is your own experience. No body till date has been able to

> negate or argue out against what is stated in Gita. We all have a

> choice always , however, to believe or not. The Yoga process of

> Gita ( control of Prana) and Patanjali Yoga Darshan has been

> practiced by the millions of Saints, Sages, Rishis, ordinary

people,

> Yogis, Saadhaks in the past and now also. None disputed their

> results. The Praanayaam explained in Gita is even today

practiced

> by millions of people across the globe. What more arguments are

> needed to prove something to be scientific. You certainly cannot

> satisfy those who indulge in " SCIENTISM " . Because to get satisfied

> also is a subject matter of belief/acceptance !!!

>

> Jai Shree Krishna.

>

> Vyas N B

> -------------------------------

> Dear Sadak,

>

> With Ref to Daniel quiry.

>

> In Mathura there is place (Jail) where Krishna was born, HIS nanda

> Gokul is there, Kans (Kamsa Krishna uncle) kingdom is there. The

> names of persons with whom Krishna dealt is there with there

> residential proof. Sri Krishna where HE lived Dwaraka is there

> submerged in sea coast.

>

> Now regards scientific comparision: HE (sri Krishna) said about-

> human body system, food, inhaling process, mental changes due to

> vasanas, how one` s destiny is working scientifically system of

> birth and death, purpose of birth, six stages of changes that all

> living beings undergo (in sanskrit word starting from Parimalathe

> (appear) -to- Asthi (death) ), how to reach divinity, six mental

> levels starting from Kaama-Krodha-Madha etc which today science

> says mental balance is important for health, HE taught how to

> behave with teacher, friend (Kuchela), oponant Duryodhan, parents

> etc. HE also taught complete detachment if one contemplates on HIS

> life patern. HE could forsee the fate of Jarasand whose fate to

die

> in the hands of Bheema. HE could know anyone intellect.Example: HE

> acted to have headache and said it could be cured by the dust of

HIS

> baktha. Narada, HIS 8 wives, and other refused to dust when HE

> asked. Then HE said get the dust of Gopies. Later everyone relized

> their mistakes.

>

> Faith can move mountains. To day in Kaliyuga everything is

doubted.

> One doubt is enough, that one will multiply to infinite completely

> removing peace of mind. These are said in Geetha if one reads

> carfully.

>

> B.Sathyanarayan

> -------------------------------

> Hari Om

>

> Dear Sri Daniel

>

> I was intrigued by your query and therefore decided to test myself

on

> the same lines.

>

> Being a Science student and definitely having a bias towards

> Mathematics, I have always sought to reduce any concept or idea to

> simple rules.

>

> I am reminded of a Mathematics term " Axiom " . It means " A self-

> evident principle or one that is accepted as true without proof as

> the basis for argument; a postulate " .

>

> Can Gita be reduced to an Axiom. I often wonder !

>

> St. Augustine said, " Faith is to believe what you do not see; the

> reward of this faith is to see what you believe " .

>

> The route to achieving the goal as prescribed in Gita is to pursue

> diligently what is said in Gita, taking it as an Axiom, and at

every

> stage experiencing the change within.

>

> Have I experienced any change? Yes.

>

> I have seen changes in myself with reference to Anger, I have seen

> the benefits of Acceptance, and am sure several of the Sadhakas

> experience the changes within which gives them the confidence that

> they are in THE PATH.

>

> Thanks for the query

>

> Hari Om

> Jayaraman

> ------------------------------

> All these explanations are in a stand point of Intellect only.....

>

> Do you believe that you have Father and Grand Father or Great

Grand

> Father.. or Great Great Grand Father?

>

> Do you believe you exist? Then all our Sastras also exist...

>

> I got a big laugh when our present remote sensing Sonia asked

about

> Sri Rama's Birth Certificate, what a foolishness.....

>

> All these are in the argument level. Can you show you have

Brains..

> I need proof. I need to see the brain physically not through image

> scanning!!

>

> May GOD Bless

>

> Krishna Prasad

>

> --------------------------------

> , " sadhak_insight "

> <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> >

> > Dear Daniel

> > There are three words a) information b) knowledge c) truth.

> > Information is empirical or a typical case like history, or

court

> > case with names and places and details of observervation. Akbar

> and

> > Ashoka both are rulers but student of history can not substitue

> one

> > with another.

> >

> > Knowledge is not information but a model or theoretical/logical

> > model which is not dependent on a given history or experiment

but

> is

> > always there in some form or the other. Physics is not a given

> > history but ever present (sanaatan, nitya) and f = force, g=

> > gravity, v= velocity are symbol of characters which takes any

> names

> > and places in value. Physics can thus, predict any information

> > without specific names. This 'physics' which is nitya, sanaatan

is

> > thus an example of knowledge.

> >

> > Satya (truth) is one step beyond the knowledge. It is universal

> > knowledge and therefore known naturally to all f us without

> effort,

> > and common to all. Because it is common, there cannot exist

> > differences in opinon, and thus no conflict. Gandhi therefore

> > defined truth in its property of non voilence. In other words,

if

> > understanding of Bhagwat Gita makes one contemplative and

> > independent, and free from anexiety, conflict then this is

Truth.

> >

> > Science is not truth but a way to truth. This is a know how of

> > already known things. If there is no truth, there can not be

> > sciences explaining that. Thus, truth is the aim of all

> knowledges.

> > It can only be realized but when it comes to explanation, it

> becomes

> > sciences.

> >

> > I cannot write how many times in Bhagwat Gita, satya (Truth) and

> > gyan (Knowledge) are used differently, and accurate absolutely.

> >

> > Best regards

> > K G

> > (Krishna Gopal)

> > -------------------------------

> > Jai Shri Krishna,

> >

> > Re: Sadhak Daniel's query - Q 1

> >

> > Vyas Ji has beautifully addressed Sadhak Daniel's query on

> > Acceptance.

> >

> > Acceptance is FAR MORE Superior than learning (knowledge).

> Whatever

> > one accepts in life, one never forgets, whereas anything learnt

> can

> > always be forgotten, partially or completely. If you are woken

up

> in

> > the middle of the night and asked what is your marital status,

you

> > will not need even a second to think before answering this

> question

> > because you have firmly accepted that you are bachelor, married

or

> > widower.

> >

> > At least in the Indian context, a chaste (Pativrata) woman,

> accepts

> > her relationship with the person she marries just by the saying

of

> > the Priest performing the matrimonial rituals. The acceptance is

> > instant and so firm that even after say 50 years of the death of

> her

> > husband she becomes vigilant whenever anyone takes her husband's

> > name. She can never forget the acceptance of the man as her

> husband.

> > A Suhagan (a married woman with her husband alive) does not see

> > herself as 'Widow' even in her dreams - that is the power of

> > ACCEPTANCE.

> >

> > We all will vouch for the fact that many things we learn in life

> > (knowledge acquired), we tend to forget with time. BUT no one

> > forgets whatever one accepts once.

> >

> > Use of underestimating words such as " simply " is apt at best to

> > learning (knowledge) only. Acceptance is on top at 100 on on a

> scale

> > where learning is at 1.

> >

> > Narayan Narayan

> >

> > Rajendra J Bohra

> >

> > --------------------------------

> > Why we should believe in the Gita or for that matter the Vedas?

> >

> > Belief in anything is useless in itself. Yet, belief alone can

let

> > anyone start one's journey toward anything including

spirituality.

> >

> > You cannot derive benefit from anything – be it Gita or Vedas or

> > cough medicine – unless you have a belief to start with. It is

our

> > habit to ignore things unless we have a belief. Therefore, one

> > should have belief in something if one wants to derive benefits

> from

> > anything. Belief is the key to the door for any body of knowledge

> > including Vedanta.

> >

> > If we make our beleifs our path we won't go anywhere just like a

> > blind man following another blind man. Belief cannot reap the

> fruits

> > from anything unless we adapt to the path we choose. Threfore,

it

> is

> > what you understand and realize from the scripts that matters for

> > our progress. Carrying out anything without understanding is even

> > worse than not doing it since we could channel our resources to

> what

> > helps us. Understanding is the key to tread the path we choose

> > including spiritual practice.

> >

> > But, even if we understand great meanings out of the scripts, it

is

> > of no use unless it is adapted in our life. No matter what we

> > understand in our thought process, we continue to fidget in our

> > lives contrary to our very understanding unless the knowledge

> > perculates to our atomic existence in its subtlety and clarity.

It

> > is what we are that matters at any point of time – before the

path

> > wherein no belief has dawned, in the path wherein the belief has

> > kicked off the process, and all along the path wherein the

> knowledge

> > trickles into our living, in its purity. After all what we would

be

> > matters no matter we took guidance from an Upanishad or from a

Veda

> > or from The Gita or from any other scriptures or from The Life as

> > such.

> >

> > The idea is to be at peace. The litmus test for our state in the

> > path is the happiness. Anything that deviates us from our natural

> > state of peace and happiness is reveals the play of our ignorance

> > and alerts us to explore and fix the same at once. To jump start

> > ourselves in such a process we should believe in Vedas. To keep

in

> > pace with the process, we should understand the Vedas. To be one

> with

> > the process, we should be the Vedas.

> >

> > Veda means Knowledge. Knowledge means Bliss. Bliss is The Truth.

We

> > should be grateful to the Faith as it put us in the path of

> > Knowledge. We should be grateful to the Knowledge as it marches

us

> > toward the Bliss. We should be grateful to the Bliss as it keeps

us

> > with the Truth. All are excellent as far as they are correctly

> > placed and practiced.

> >

> > Respects.

> >

> > Naga Narayana.

> >

> > --------------------------------

--

> --

> >

> > Jai hree Krishna Pryia Bhandus

> >

> > Based on my understanding, Gita/Vedas are the origins of

LANGUAGE,

> > MATHS AND SCIENCE. Here is an example of Math and the number

ZERO.

> > Origins from SANYAS into Arabic SIFER to Latin CIFER and english

> > ZERO.

> >

> > As I understand, the concept of Nothingness came from Vedic

> thought

> > as well. SANATAN DHARMA represents Eternal and ultimate TRUTH.

> > These Eternal Truths existed even before creation, just like

> gravity

> > existed even before Newton labeled it as gravity, when he

observed

> > the apple falling from a tree.

> >

> > Jai Hind

> > Jayesh A Patel

> > London

> >

> > , " sadhak_insight "

> > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Hari Om

> > >

> > > Re Saadhak Daniel's Queries - Reply to Question No 1

> > >

> > > There are too many queries emanating in reality. First let

me

> > > summarise them. Then a separate reply shall be given for each

> > query.

> > > In the end we shall conclude- so that time and space

> requirements

> > of

> > > Moderator also remain complied with.

> > >

> > > Q 1 Is Gita simply a matter of Acceptance?

> > >

> > > Q 2 Is there scientific explanation ( other than acceptance) ?

> > >

> > > Q 3 Why we should believe in the Gita or for that purpose

the

> > > Vedas?

> > >

> > > Q 4 How do you explain to some one that whatever is explained

> in

> > > Gita is truthful ?

> > >

> > > Q 5 How do we know the real source of Gita?

> > >

> > > Q 6 Is there anything in the Gita that provides scientific

> view /

> > > explanation or anything that addresses the Origin of Vedas/

Gita?

> > >

> > > Now these are the six questions, which Brother Daniel has

asked,

> > at

> > > the same time acknowledging that he has been studying Gita and

> > > believes that everything stated therein is truth. He wants now

> to

> > > make others believe that.

> > >

> > > In this posting first I will take Q no 1. Every day I shall

> > address

> > > one question and in the end shall conclude.

> > >

> > > IS GITA SIMPLY A MATTER OF ACCEPTANCE?

> > >

> > > Everything in this world basically is a matter of acceptance

> only.

> > > Why to single out Gita? Take your birth for example. Can you

say

> > > based on the " knowledge " - your own personal knowledge -as to

> who

> > is

> > > your father? You don't remember your birth. Whoever gave you

> love

> > > and affection in the beginning was your mother and to

whosoever

> > she

> > > pointed out was your father! How will you prove that Mr So and

> So

> > is

> > > your father ? THERE IS NO WAY ANYBODY CAN PROVE BASED ON HIS

> > > KNOWLEDGE THAT HE IS SON OF MR SO AND SO

> > >

> > > I repeat no way! This is a fact. Anybody can raise a separate

> > query

> > > on this. You have to accept only in the beginning. Later on

the

> > > knowledge comes. It is your acceptance level which opens the

> door

> > of

> > > knowledge in life. When you accept that you are son of so and

> so,

> > > that acceptance keeps strengthening in you and when you become

> > adult

> > > or old , your talking, walking styles, your physique or

> mannerism

> > > start resembling to your father ! First you have to accept.

You

> > > accept first that alphabet A comes before alphabet B, later on

> you

> > > may become a Professor of English language. You have to accept

> > first

> > > that one plus one is two- later on you can get a Doctorate in

> > > mathematics! Why one plus one is 2 and not 3? Why do you

> pronounce

> > A

> > > as A and not as B? You accepted first. Later on you became

> > > knowledgeable! Just as you accepted someone to be your father,

> you

> > > have to first accept God also. Later on all explanations and

> > logics

> > > will flow. You cant establish by knowledge the identity of

your

> > own

> > > father, where is the question then of establishing

> > > the eternal father , the God? Same is for Gita also which is

the

> > > voice of that God only- whose identity you cant establish

based

> on

> > > your knowledge. God is beyond knowledge. God or Gita or our

> > fathers

> > > all are matter of belief and acceptance. Yes Gita is a matter

> of

> > > acceptance! What is wrong with that? If you start making a

list-

> > you

> > > will find uncountable things in life which you accepted first.

> We

> > > shall deal with it later on with specific reference.

> > >

> > > Jai Shree Krishna

> > >

> > > Vyas N B

> > >

> > > ------------------------------

--

> --

> > > Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

> > >

> > > Very good question, " One has studied Gita for some time and

> > believes

> > > that it has absolute truth, but how do you explain to someone

> else

> > > logically that Gita has the truth? "

> > >

> > > The way I understand is that belief in truth has a place in

> > > organized religions. However the truth as taught in Gita or

Veda

> > or

> > > other such scriptures is to be experienced. The teaching is

> about

> > > the reality of " I " , the world, and God, and above all how they

> are

> > > related to each other. Simply belief in the truth will not

work

> in

> > > this case as it is not organized around God, the truth. Gita

is

> > not

> > > dogmatic. Many possibilities are explained rather than

preached

> > > specific. When one's belief is replaced with knowing

> > experientially,

> > > one knows how to explain to others!

> > >

> > > Second difficulty is that the experience of God is unlike all

> > other

> > > experiences which are all objective knowledge through sense

> > organs,

> > > mind and intellect. All such experiences are limited in scope.

> God

> > > is that Knowingness itself through which everything else is

> known

> > to

> > > exist in the first place and that which cannot be objectified,

> > When

> > > objectified, God becomes limited object of our belief. Belief

in

> > God

> > > takes one up to a certain point, never to final salvation..

> > >

> > > Lord Krishna is speaking unspeakable only because we need to

> > > communicate to ohers with a full knowledge that it is only a

> > pointer

> > > to truth. One has to walk accordingly.

> > >

> > > Such being the case, my suggestion would be to explain these

> above

> > > points first. Then one has to study with open mind, asking

> > > questions, doubting, and not resting until answers become

> > > convictions and resonate within oneself. True Understanding of

> > > verses culminate into bursts of joy and satisfaction. This is

a

> > test

> > > of experience of truth. In this regard help of like minded

> > friends,

> > > realized teacher, and platform such as this group is highly

> > > recommended. The one to whom we want to explain has to be

> > interested

> > > in truth and approach us to have a meaningful explanation.

> > >

> > > Namaskars...Pratap

> > > (Pratap Bhatt)

> > >

> > > ------------------------------

--

> --

> > > Dear seeker of permanent truths,

> > >

> > > The physical, subtle and causal Truths are found by two

methods

> > viz.

> > > either Inductive or Deductive. Inductive methods are normally

> > > applied in physical sciences and scientific findings go on

> > changing.

> > > Newtonian Physics of inert matter has vastly changed as matter

> is

> > > now having unsuspected vitality. Even steel feels fatigue.

> Science

> > > once said Earth is static and Sun is moving, now Sceince has

> > > accepted Sun is stationary and earth is moving. Biology is

> > changing

> > > every day.

> > >

> > > The permanent truths found through deductive methods known to

> > human

> > > soul (apriori knowledge) contained in Vedas, Bhagavd Gita and

> > > Upanishads have been challenged, criticised and even people

like

> > > great materialists Charvakas said it was going back to the

> ancient

> > > period. BUT till date not proved wrong even by the great

> > scientists

> > > of any age-past and present. On the contrary even Newton,

> Einstein

> > > and many others confirrmed about the existence of Supreme

> Reality.

> > > Einstein even put a board outside his laboratory " Thou art

> That " .

> > > and said God does not play dice.

> > >

> > > Deductive method is based on Metaphysics (beyond

Physics/matter)

> > > which Bhagavd Gita says is the supreme science. The rsis and

> > munnies

> > > (metaphysicists and wandering sages)of yore got these

permanent

> > > truths through their omniscient souls. Vedic truths in regard

to

> > > matter are now being proved even in the laboratory of

scientists

> > > relating to atom, sub atomic particles, physical sciences. But

> > > truths relating to subtle matters like subtle divine Nature,

> > > location of subtle instruments in human body like Vivek (power

> of

> > > discernment, Ego, Buddhi (intellect), manas (inward looking

> mind),

> > > physical scientist can never find. They only know about

> maaterial

> > > instruments in the human body like senses, sense organs etc.

> > >

> > > If truths contained in Vedas and Bhagavad Gita are to be

> accepted

> > on

> > > blind faith, it is better not to accept and one should

continue

> > > facing material happiness or sorrows in this vast turbulent

sea

> of

> > > matter. But one who is convinced of the much higher deductive

> > > methods of finding truths, will accept Bhagavad Gita and Vedas

> as

> > > Shruti - revealed through the human soul which is subtle

> particle

> > of

> > > the Supreme Soul (Parmatma).

> > > with kind regards,

> > >

> > > P.K.Sabhlok

> > >

> > > ------------------------------

--

> --

> > -

> > > Dear TKach.

> > >

> > > I think the Moderator would/may respond to this one query.

> Staying

> > > with the group's exchanges so far, would have already shed

some

> > > light on these Truths.

> > >

> > > To me as a sadhak; A real " believer's " is he whose conviction

is

> > > fully realised and becomes one with it. It is not about blind

> > > faith.

> > >

> > > Even the scientist person like Newton in a question of him

being

> > the

> > > greatest person, came out stating that " people say I know so

so

> > > much; but in fact my knowledge is just like an atom of dust at

> the

> > > sea-shore...while I have so much to gain the knowledge ... " .

The

> > > Science or seeking scientific reasons being only or related to

> > > physics or a form and being limited - cannot in anyway define

> the

> > > omni-present and all-prevading GOD.

> > >

> > > This subject is of HEART before the BRAIN.

> > >

> > > Best Regards

> > >

> > > Kishin Chandiramani

> > >

> > > ------------------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > Dear Sadak,

> > >

> > > Geetha starts, " EITHI UPANATHSHU " . That means Geetha is juice

of

> > > Upanashids/Vedas.

> > >

> > > From my personal view the Geetha is Do`s and Dont`s. Rules

laid

> to

> > > guide one from human to divinity. Once human level raises to

> > > divinity, he becomes realized in conscience level.

> > >

> > > If one believes Geetha and strictly PRACTICES what Krishna

says,

> > > that person becomes " Gunaa Theethan " , as Bagavan himself said.

> The

> > > question any one of you can ask yourself, " Am I practicing

basic

> > > princlples of Geetha, speaking truth (alignment of thought,

word

> > and

> > > deed at the conscience level), seeing Bagavan (God

Consciousness)

> > in

> > > all living creatures, getting up early in morning and atleast

> > > thinking of Bagavan, controling senses - tongue in eating

> (Bagavan

> > > said in Geetha how Gunas affect a person due to food) and in

> > talking

> > > (Not causing the least pain by words spoken), Bagavan

> > says, " Indriya

> > > (Organs of actions) control. Do we do this?

> > >

> > > After this comes Bagavan saying, " Kama yeshu- Krodha yeshu

etc " .

> > > From desire comes anger, from anger comes greed etc. Simply

by

> > > understanding these words through vivek (discriminative

faculty)

> > one

> > > can become calms and experience Ananda (it is bliss, with no

> > > opposite, it is not happiness). The opposity of Happiness is

> > > sorrow, such as health and sickess, so on. But for Ananda

there

> is

> > > no opposite. Some people just by reading Bagavath Geetha feel

> > happy,

> > > then what to speak of application in one's life; Imagine the

> glory.

> > >

> > > Coming to scientific explanation, Geetha says, " Prana, Samana

> etc "

> > 5

> > > pranas, which scientist accepts 5 elements of air we breath.

> Over

> > > night kept food forments and produces certain chemical change

> next

> > > day says Geetha. Scientist say food kept in store for a night

> and

> > > used next day causes surge in immune system. But Geetha has

gone

> > > much deeper than scientist by says how our brain is affected.

> > >

> > > There is everything in Geetha for the whole creation. But one

> does

> > > not make the effort to read and deeply contemplate on hidden

> > truths.

> > >

> > > Now coming to Sri Krishna: HE had 108 Sidhis, able to lift

> > mountain,

> > > kill demons, bring back the dead son of HIS Guru Sandipan`s

dead

> > son

> > > to life. HIS teaching gives more insight about human way of

> living

> > > that could elevate to Moksha. In HIS life time were there any

> > > mistakes? HE is therefore believed by saints as " Jagath GURU " .

> > >

> > > Sri Krishna says, that one needs to under go several birth to

> > start

> > > to say " Om Namo Narayanaya " . So the ones who do not believe in

> HIM

> > > is our brothers/sisters are on the way striving to reach that

> > level.

> > > Therefore there should be no dislike/hatred to be shown to any

> > > persons, as Sri Krishna says, " See ME in all creation " . One

may

> > > believe in Geetha but if one should have even in conscience

> level

> > a

> > > small dislike on the person who disbelieves Sri Krishna/

Geetha,

> > > then such a person is not true Visnavite.

> > >

> > > B.Sathyanarayan

> > > ------------------------------

--

> -

> > >

> > > , " sadhak_insight "

> > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Haribol!!

> > > >

> > > > Can anyone explain why we should believe in the Gita or for

> that

> > > > matter the Vedas?

> > > >

> > > > I've been studying Bhagavad Gita for some time, and I

believe

> > > everything

> > > > that is there is the absolute truth, but how do you explain

to

> > > someone

> > > > else that this is the truth? It is not enough to say " it

comes

> > from

> > > > Krsna " " just accept Krsna " . It has to be a more scientific

and

> > > thorough

> > > > explanation, do you know what I mean?

> > > >

> > > > I'd like to be able to explain to someone why this is the

> truth,

> > > how do

> > > > we know the real source !

> > > >

> > > > Is there anything in the Gita that provides scientific view /

> > > > explanation or anything that addresses the Origin of the

> Vedas /

> > > Gita ?

> > > >

> > > > Hare Krsna!! Thanks.

> > > >

> > > > Daniel Tkach

> > > >

> > > > FROM THE MODERATOR

> > > >

> > > > GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES:

> > > > The Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify their

> doubts

> > > > related to Gitaji shlokas. To ensure that both the questions

> and

> > > the

> > > > responses are focused, pointed and brief, the guidelines for

> > Gita-

> > > Talk

> > > > discussions are being modified and are being sent to you.

> > > >

> > > > The following are the guidelines for Gita-Talk discussions.

> > > >

> > > > GUIDELINES FOR POSTING A QUESTION:

> > > >

> > > > 1. The group is focused on the Holy Gitaji and clarifying

any

> > > doubts,

> > > > therefore only questions that pertain to Gitaji will be

posted

> > in

> > > the

> > > > future.

> > > >

> > > > 2. Please restrict the number of questions asked to only one

> at

> > a

> > > time.

> > > >

> > > > 3. Making reference of Gitaji shloka is compulsory - at

least

> > once

> > > in

> > > > the question.

> > > >

> > > > 4. Please be specific with the question, relating the

practical

> > > > difficulties being faced by the Sadhak. Specifics around,

> where

> > is

> > > the

> > > > sadhak facing obstacles in his spiritual journey, in the

> > teachings

> > > of

> > > > Geetaji, in principles laid down by Swamiji or other

Mahatamas

> > are

> > > > highly recommended to be included.

> > > >

> > > > 5. General questions will not be considered for future

posting.

> > > > e.g. " suicide " " solving world hunger " etc.

> > > >

> > > > GUIDELINES FOR POSTING A RESPONSE:

> > > >

> > > > 1. The group is focused on the Holy Gitaji, therefore, only

> > > responses

> > > > which further clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will be

> > posted.

> > > >

> > > > 2. Making reference of Gitaji shloka is highly encouraged -

at

> > > least

> > > > once in the response. Wherever possible, please quote

Gitaji

> or

> > > other

> > > > scriptures to substantiate your response.

> > > >

> > > > 3. Please be as concise and to the point as possible,

> respecting

> > > > sadhaka's time. Under no circustance the answer should

exceed

> > say

> > > one

> > > > page at the most (500 words or so).

> > > >

> > > > 4. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to

> the

> > > > extent that they further help in understanding the Gita

shlokas

> > > >

> > > > 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only.

> > > >

> > > > 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other

> > > > organizations.

> > > >

> > > > 7. Complete reproduction of texts from any book is strongly

> > > > discouraged, however references may be made of the book or

> > author

> > > (but

> > > > not links to other sites).

> > > >

> > > > 8. Kindly do not include your personal information such as

> phone

> > > > number, address etc.

> > > >

> > > > 9. Please do not address the response to a particular

> individual

> > > since

> > > > the message is going to the entire group.

> > > >

> > > > 10. Due to the large readership, only those responses will

be

> > > posted

> > > > which are in line with the general philosophy of taking

Shrimad

> > > > Bhagavad Gita as the reference.

> > > >

> > > > 11. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if

> > > content is

> > > > unclear for distribution or not directly related to the

> question

> > > being

> > > > asked.

> > > >

> > > > 12. Please respond taking into consideration the novices,

> youth,

> > > > westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use of

> only

> > > > Sanskrit words, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit

> > > > bracketed wherever possible.

> > > >

> > > > MODERATOR

> > > > Ram Ram

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

June 26, 2008

Hari Om

Re Saadhak Daniel's Queries- Reply to Q no 3

WHY WE SHOULD BELIEVE IN GITA / VEDAS ?

A really good question. The best among the 6 questions. Many

powerful reasons can be given. However I shall give one reason only.

May be that clicks too. The briefest answer is " YOU SHOULD BELIEVE

IN GITA/VEDAS TO SATISFY ALL OF YOUR DESIRES – CONCLUSIVELY " ! !

Every human being has desires to fulfil. Entire humanity with no

exception is doing only the acts to fulfil their desires. There is

nothing else ! that each one of us is doing at present. It is quite

natural also because, in fact you have been given human birth only

to fulfil your desires. Desires are born along with you. It is a

law that if you have any desire then the element to fulfil that

desire is also existing. You cannot have a desire for a thing which

does not exist. For example, none of us has a desire to get

say " flower of sky " . That is because the flower of sky does not

exist. If we have thirst, that necessarily means that there exists

water on the planet. Had there been no water existing on the planet

we would not have felt thirsty. So the principle is – if you have a

desire there exists invariably an element to fulfil that desire. It

is also a law that if you have a desire then the power to fulfil

that desire is also existing in you. That is the kindness of God and

that is justice also ! So you have a desire existing. You also have

that element existing which fulfils that desire. You have powers

also to fulfil that desire. Once these three meet- then the desire

gets fulfilled and thereby extinguishes. Then there remains no

desire.

Now what are your desires? They are not uncountable as we generally

believe. They are only three basically. (1) TO KNOW SOMETHING; (2)

TO DO SOMETHING ; and (3) TO GET SOMETHING. ( If any Reader can

provide fourth desire - welcome. Some may feel " desire to live' " to

be the 4th . But that desire is included in (3)- " to get " -

longevity/ immortality). All desires ultimately get classified into

these 3 categories. To fulfil these desires you have three powers

with us. (1) power to know ; (2) power to do and ( 3 ) power to

believe/accept. These are the powers we have. We don't have a power

to get. That which we are to get is realised by us , if we have

exercised our power to believe/accept correctly. It is also a law

that if we fulfil any one of the above three desires conclusively,

then the balance two desires get automatically fulfilled.

Now about the third element of the trinity. The element which

fulfils the desire. What is that element ? With respect to the first

desire- to know something- the element has to be " that element

after knowing which nothing remains to be known " Then there should

not remain anything to be known. You have known everything.

Similarly your desire to do something can extinguish only when you

have done that thing after doing which nothing remains to be done,

the very desire to do something should extinguish. The same is with

your desire to get something. This can extinguish only when you have

got that thing after getting which nothing remains to get (to be

attained). The very desire to get something should extinguish. So

the yardstick for fulfilment of desire is- extinguishment of

desire. What else can be the yardstick ? It is also a law that you

cannot remain peaceful unless you have fulfilled your desires!

Naturally! How can you remain peaceful when the very purpose of your

getting human life is not fulfilled? Needless to say that if today

you have these three desires existing in you then most certainly you

have not known/done/got those elements which fulfil and thereby

extinguish those desires! Any doubt?

You have been for eons and ages in fact are busy in fulfilling

these desires only. In this life also what are you doing at present

except making efforts to fulfil these desires ? But have these

desires extinguished in you ? Are you peaceful? Do you have nothing

now to know/do/get? That means what? That means you are no where

near those elements which fulfil and therby extinguish these three

basic desires! You made efforts throughout your life, you used your

powers consistently to fulfil your desires, but there are still a

lot of things which you have to know/do/ get. Meaning thereby, job

unfulfilled ! No peace! What have you got till date by hankering,

toiling, running, struggling ? - Sorrows, pains; frustrations,

dissatisfaction, deficiencies,lack of peace, tension, anxiety, fear,

turbulences, inner storms, 'birth' death; disease. And is there an

end in sight ? Again dying with unfulfilled desires, once again

taking birth, the cycle continues and continues. What have you not

done (attempted) to fulfil the desires, what compromises you have

not made to get what you desired? And still you are unhappy,

deficient. Still the same old desires are haunting you. Some thing

wrong some where- is not it?

Gita and Veda precisely tell you what you should do and what you

should not do. They tell you what you should know and what is futile

even if you know. They tell what you should strive to get and what

is useless even if you get. How to get those final elements which

fulfil and thereby extinguish forever these three desires in you?

What are those elements? How to use your powers? How to become

peaceful? Who are you? How are you? To get answers, you should

believe in Gita/ Vedas. It is within your powers. You can believe if

you want. " To believe " - is one of the three powers you have got

with you. Use that power of belief correctly, in right direction and

get in return a liberation from an otherwise endless cycle.. Get

peaceful. Get real ANANDA ( Bliss).. .

One good enough reason?

Jai Shree Krishna.

Vyas N B

--

Loving Divine,

Pranam.

Beautiful question and beautiful answers. I am going to add little

more to it. In my understanding, Gitaji is a very compact book of

Psychology - science of studying mind and its manifestation in

personal and social life. If one understands his/her own

psychology, one is able to help oneself move in the right direction,

at the right time by making the right decision. This also helps one

to understand behaviour of others in general. Eventually, this

brings better harmony in life. The following information is from

Wikipedia. Try to understand this definition and then read Bhagwat

Gita, you will understand lot of things yourself why one should

study it!

'Psychology is an academic and applied discipline involving the

analytic and scientific study of mental processes and behavior.

Psychologists study such phenomena as perception, cognition,

emotion, personality, behavior, and interpersonal relationships.

Psychology also refers to the application of such knowledge to

various spheres of human activity including issues related to daily

life—e.g. family, education, and work—and the treatment of mental

health problems. Psychology attempts to understand the role these

functions play in social behavior and in social dynamics, while

incorporating the underlying physiological and neurological

processes into its conceptions of mental functioning. Psychology

includes many sub-fields of study and application concerned with

such areas as human development, sports, health, industry, media,

law, and transpersonal psychology.'

Even though there are many sub-fields discussed in last line, my

strong conviction is that one can not change anything without

bringing a change in one's own mental state and that's what Krishna

helped Arjun to realize. After understanding the above definition,

when one studies Gitaji, lot more things open up! Just chapter one

raises lot of issues like discriminating mentality - yours vs. mine,

ego, illusion, racism, depression, fear, desire, attachment, result

of being over ambitious, stubbornness, ignorance, disrespect -

attitude problem, self praise, boasting, distrust, dejection, sin,

virtues - vices, some blind practices that are still going on in

today's environment, etc. Age old mind has not changed a bit even

in today's so call scientific advancements - technological age.

The key treatments offered are talking to a wise - trustworthy

friend, having faith - love - devotion, right karma (action), right

understanding via knowledge, yoga-meditation, right eating, right

attitude, regular study/practice of ones own mind and taking right

action at the right time, etc... Ultimately practicing what Gitaji

is suggesting, one can expand his/her mind to cosmic level, freeing

one from all of this and reaching to liberation!

Gitaji is showing a way for one to become his/her own scientist,

conduct the experiments suggested and conclude yourself rather than

depending on studies conducted by someone else! Accept the

challenge and find out what it has to offer!

Hope this helps.

humble regards,

always at Thy Holy Feet

Manjula Patel

-

Jai Shri Krishna,

Re Saadhak Daniel `s Query- Reply to Q no 2

The dictionary definition of the word 'Science' has been brought out

by Vyas Ji while addressing the subject query. The dictionary might

have defined the word say a few thousand years ago. However, the

word Science has been defined by Gitaji for TIMES IMMEMORIAL.

The English word Science is known as 'Vigyan' in Sanskrit, which is

an eternal language of Sanatan Dharma. Vi-gyan means special

knowledge (learned or scientific knowledge, or philosophical

acquired knowledge).

It is important to note that the word Science has been defined in

Gitaji at various places ( eg. Gitaji 7/2, 9/1). In fact each verse

in Gitaji treasures oceans of sciences, if explored. The question of

Gitaji standing the test of qualifying to be scientific does not

arise at all then.

Gitaji has laid the laws and procedures for getting free from grief

(18/66), way of performing duties (2/47), renunciation (18/9),

ensuring that sins stay away from us (2/38), style of eating food

(6/16-17), offering anything to God (9/26), donation(17/20),

equanimity (3/34) and so on and so forth, in precise yet

comprehensive and logical (so called scientific) ways.

Gitaji is much LARGER than science.

Narayan Narayan

Rajendra J Bohra

--

Mr. Keenor has made couple of apt observations. I could not agree

with him more in:

1. 'The Gita' is beyond science - one should derive support for

one's sceintific understanding from Vedanta. NOT vice versa . All

attempts to bring " sceince " in Gita does not make any sense to me

either. Of course, Vedanta makes many sweeping observations on

science as well just like any other faculty of human information

system to make a point. One should not limit oneself to such

observations. Then, we would miss the boat altogether.

2. Bhagvada Gita is not a matter of just acceptance, it would not

ring a bell for someone like me who spent their life in technology.

My faith in it, is based on experience - Vedanta is beyond

acceptance, observation, understanding, learning etc. It is a matter

of being THAT. Nothing else. Of course, acceptance, understanding,

learning etc. are all part of the process ... but yet cannot

encompass THAT in anyway. The seeker should keep this in mind

perpetually.

Respects.

Naga Narayana.

Thanks Mike.

As a child, my grandmother told stories to me. She would ask which

story, you want for today. And then she would tell same stories

again with adding more depth into it. After 50 years, I hold belief

in those stories that guides my life in matters of human

sensibilities. Bhagwat Gita is just like that. I miss the grand

mother for the love, and her stories and care, and it gets

substitute by the Bhagwat Gita which similarly answers all

questions, and repeats with more depth.

Bhagwat Gita is about you talking to yourself, and that yourself is

absoltely detached and free. Once you start knowing 'that freed

yourself' more, you living into world become free and detached.

Best regards

K G

(Krishna Gopal)

---

, " sadhak_insight "

<sadhak_insight wrote:

>

> -Shree Hari-

>

> A person who I had made acquaintance with under strange

> circumstances, one day he said, " Mike you should read the Bhagavad

> Gita " . He lent me a copy, he knew what it was about. I found that

it

> was amazing, it explained things to me that I had thought about,

and

> had experienced, these were things that were almost never dealt

with

> in western philosophy or science. How is it possible that this

book

> was able to answer question that laid deep within the psyche of a

> person who had nothing to do with the faith behind it?

>

> This was a good few years ago, I am now reading this sacred text

> slowly now on line, it has authoritative comments, and I am

> allowing it to take me as far and as deep, that it will.

>

> To me 'The Gita' is beyond science. I have long considered that

> science is constrained by the dogmas within it.

>

> From my point of view the Bhagvada Gita is not a matter of just

> acceptance, it would not ring a bell for someone like me who spent

> their life in technology. My faith in it, is based on experience.

>

> With respects and Divine love,

>

> Mike Keenor

>

> Shree Hari

> Ram Ram

>

> Dear Daniel, thanks for a very good question!

> Gita describes four Yogas to achieve the only goal of human life to

> realize the inherent divinity in man by uniting with the Supreme.

> The Yoga of Devotion (Bhakti Yoga) is considered a direct, simple

> and the best path. To follow this path, starting point is

acceptance

> and surrender in exclusive love of God. Even though this path

starts

> with acceptance but eventually it leads to Knowledge of the Supreme

> in the end. This fact about the path of devotion as a potent method

> to realize the goal, is not unique to Gita or Hindu tradition but

is

> true for the most wisdom traditions of the world. The importance of

> acceptance is brought out by Swamiji Maharaj time & again in his

> discourses and has been already captured beautifully by Vyasji's

> response (#1).

>

> In science we go from proof to belief, in devotion we go from

belief

> to proof.

>

> From the stand point of Yoga of Action (Karma Yoga), we do not have

> to just accept what is declared in Gita but we can scientifically

> verify it first through our own observation and personal

experience.

> The spiritual truths remain always unchanged, regardless of whether

> we accept them or not. These truths have been experienced and

> validated by sages and seers over the centuries. For our

> satisfaction, we too can validate these spiritual truths through

our

> own experimentation.

>

> Here are few of the verses from Gita on Karma Yoga to illustrate

how

> we can apply science to verify the truths in Gita:

>

> Gita 2-62/63

>

> Shows logically, the sequence of events when person gets angry and

> the consequence which follow -

>

> " The man dwelling on sense-objects develops attachment for them;

> from attachment springs up desire, and from desire (unfulfilled)

> ensures anger. From anger arises delusion; from delusion confusion

> of memory, from confusion of memory loss of discrimination (Budhi);

> from the loss of discrimination, he falls down from his

> spiritual goal " .

>

> Gita 2-64

>

> On what should the mind, weaned through from the senses, be placed?

>

> " But a man of disciplined mind, though moving about amongst the

> objects of senses under control, free from likes and dislikes,

> attains tranquility of mind " .

>

> Gita 2-71

>

> What should the aspirant do so that he may gain access to the

> perfect state:

>

> " He who abandons all desires and acts free from longing, without

> attachment, egoism, he attains lasting peace " .

>

> Gita 2-56

>

> Pacification of the mind is explained -

>

> " He whose mind is not perturbed by adversity, who does not crave

for

> temporary happiness, who is free from fondness, fear and anger is

> the sage (Muni) of steady wisdom " .

>

> Gita 3-36

>

> Why does an intelligent man commit sin?

>

> Arjuna said: " By what is a man compelled to commit sin, as if

driven

> by force, even against his will, O Varsneya (Krishna) " .

>

> Gita 3-37

>

> The Blessed Lord said: " The desire born of the mode of passion

> (Rajas), is anger, all devouring and most sinful. Know this to be

> the enemy here " .

>

> Similarly we can verify with our scientific enquiry many verses in

> Gita on Jnana Yoga and Yoga of Self Control, before accepting these

> spiritual truths in Gita.

>

> Another question was about the source of Gita, in my humble

opinion,

> that is only an intellectual exercise, more important question is

> can the principles declared in Gita, when applied in our daily life

> help to reach the goal!

>

> Humble regards,

>

> Madan Kaura

> ----------------------------

>

> , " sadhak_insight "

> <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> >

> > Hari Om

> >

> > Re Saadhak Daniel `s Query- Reply to Q no 2

> >

> > At the outset I must clarify that a thing which is subject matter

> of

> > belief/faith/acceptance/trust can also be scientific. It is not

> > necessary ( as we generally believe) that whatever is subject

> > matter of belief cant be scientific!

> >

> > IS THERE SCIENTIFIC EXPLANATION FOR GITA?

> >

> > " Scientific " explanation/method/view ! " Science " ! Before I deal

> > with these two terms with reference to Gita/ Vedas , let me tell

> you

> > that there is one more similar word in English language

> > called " SCIENTISM " ! " Scientism " means as per English

Dictionary -

> > " The tendency to reduce all reality and experience to

mathematical

> > descriptions of physical and chemical phenomena " !! When people

> > reflected this tendency with reference to topics other

> > than " physical and chemical phenomena " under the garb

of " Science "

> > or " Scientific " , the " Saturday Review " Editors got wild and

they

> > issued a powerful statement- so powerful that it now finds place

> in

> > Dictionaries of English Language- under " SCIENTISM " . The

> statement

> > said – " Those of us who think that Scientific method is

> applicable

> > to political problems are apt to be told, rather sharply, that we

> > are talking " scientism " . This statement is relevant for the topic

> > under reference and applies mutatis mutandis on any subject

> > including subject matter of belief i. e. on any subject which is

> > not related with " physical and chemical phenomena " ! However my

> > intention here is not to say that Gita is not scientific. Here I

> am

> > answering partly also Q no 4 of Brother Daniel.

> >

> > What is " SCIENCE " ? The dictionary meaning of " science " - (a)

> > knowledge based on observed facts and tested truths arranged in

an

> > orderly system; (b) a branch of such knowledge dealing with

> > phenomena of the universe and their laws; © skill based on

> > training and practice ; (d) SEARCH FOR TRUTH ; (e) systematic,

> > accurate, exact. The dictionary meaning of " SCIENTIFIC METHOD " –

> An

> > orderly method consisting of identifying a problem , gathering

all

> > the pertinent data,,formulating a hypothesis, performing

> > experiments, interpreting results and drawing conclusions. The

> > branches of science are Natural sciences, Social sciences,

Applied

> > Sciences, Physical sciences, Natural Sciences etc etc. That is

all

> > what is called SCIENCE or SCIENTIFIC METHOD/EXPLANATION/VIEW

What

> > else it means?

> >

> > Gita and Vedas not only fall into each and every yardstick of the

> > aforesaid definitions but are far superior to them.

> >

> > Everything in Gita is scientific only. There is nothing in Gita

> > which can be called illogical, inaccurate or irrational. There is

> no

> > inconsistency in the 700 verses with each other. All the laws,

> > principles, theories stated therein are proved by the experience.

> It

> > is in perfect sync with theories of Veda, Upanishads and other

> > eternal scriptures of Hindu Dharma. It explains everything.

There

> > are many things for which no where else the explanation is

> available

> > but in Gita and allied scriptures.The explanations,

> interpretations,

> > concepts, laws, processes enumerated in Gita of the Soul,

> > equanimity, Yoga, Surrender, God, Jeeva(self), Jagat (universe,

> > world) , Gunas (attributes), Maya (illusion), Bondage,

Liberation,

> > Conscience, Nature (prakrati), Gross/Subtle and causal bodies,

> types

> > or variations of Prana ( air operating in body), Duty , Desires ,

> > Mind, Intellect, Ego , Sorrow, Happiness, Karma, Doer, Law of

> Karma,

> > Heaven, Hell etc etc cannot be disputed when put on the

> yardsticks

> > of a person's direct experience level and logic. They are exact,

> > accurate and precise. They are nothing but truthful. The Laws,

> > Principles or Formulae given in Gita are infallible! There are

> > people who practiced the principles of Gita and reaped the fruits

> > exactly as stated in Gita. The principles given in Gita get never

> > outdated- unlike the principles of science., The reasons of

> > pleasures and pains are perfectly given- you cant argue them out!

> > The entire universe and its phenomena is covered in Gita. Not

only

> > the present life but the state after death has been covered. The

> > methods of eradication of pain from human life given in Gita are

> so

> > accurate that if you practice them there is no chance that you

can

> > fail in the same. The principles and practice of Self/ God

> > Realisation are given to the perfection. Various alternatives and

> > perfect processes have been given of the paths leading to

> > liberation, and to God. ( and for that purpose of the paths

> leading

> > to hell and heaven). Laws are explained, the exceptions are

given.

> > Just as the scientific formulas operate in day to day life with

> the

> > precision, the formulas given in Gita also operate in day to day

> > life with precision. Gita is larger than any science. It

> addresses/

> > explains those issues which science till today has not been able

> to

> > address. Like in Science, In Gita also the formulas given are

> > proven-- by your direct experiences. To compare Gita with

science

> > is disrespect to Gita. Science is one of the many many ways of

> > explaining or proving a given scenario and that science is more

> > useful in terms of material or physical or chemical phenomena.

> But

> > Gita extends much beyond what science can ever imagine. The best

> > proof is your own experience. No body till date has been able to

> > negate or argue out against what is stated in Gita. We all have

a

> > choice always , however, to believe or not. The Yoga process of

> > Gita ( control of Prana) and Patanjali Yoga Darshan has been

> > practiced by the millions of Saints, Sages, Rishis, ordinary

> people,

> > Yogis, Saadhaks in the past and now also. None disputed their

> > results. The Praanayaam explained in Gita is even today

> practiced

> > by millions of people across the globe. What more arguments are

> > needed to prove something to be scientific. You certainly cannot

> > satisfy those who indulge in " SCIENTISM " . Because to get

satisfied

> > also is a subject matter of belief/acceptance !!!

> >

> > Jai Shree Krishna.

> >

> > Vyas N B

> > -------------------------------

> > Dear Sadak,

> >

> > With Ref to Daniel quiry.

> >

> > In Mathura there is place (Jail) where Krishna was born, HIS

nanda

> > Gokul is there, Kans (Kamsa Krishna uncle) kingdom is there. The

> > names of persons with whom Krishna dealt is there with there

> > residential proof. Sri Krishna where HE lived Dwaraka is there

> > submerged in sea coast.

> >

> > Now regards scientific comparision: HE (sri Krishna) said about-

> > human body system, food, inhaling process, mental changes due to

> > vasanas, how one` s destiny is working scientifically system of

> > birth and death, purpose of birth, six stages of changes that all

> > living beings undergo (in sanskrit word starting from Parimalathe

> > (appear) -to- Asthi (death) ), how to reach divinity, six mental

> > levels starting from Kaama-Krodha-Madha etc which today science

> > says mental balance is important for health, HE taught how to

> > behave with teacher, friend (Kuchela), oponant Duryodhan, parents

> > etc. HE also taught complete detachment if one contemplates on

HIS

> > life patern. HE could forsee the fate of Jarasand whose fate to

> die

> > in the hands of Bheema. HE could know anyone intellect.Example:

HE

> > acted to have headache and said it could be cured by the dust of

> HIS

> > baktha. Narada, HIS 8 wives, and other refused to dust when HE

> > asked. Then HE said get the dust of Gopies. Later everyone

relized

> > their mistakes.

> >

> > Faith can move mountains. To day in Kaliyuga everything is

> doubted.

> > One doubt is enough, that one will multiply to infinite

completely

> > removing peace of mind. These are said in Geetha if one reads

> > carfully.

> >

> > B.Sathyanarayan

> > -------------------------------

> > Hari Om

> >

> > Dear Sri Daniel

> >

> > I was intrigued by your query and therefore decided to test

myself

> on

> > the same lines.

> >

> > Being a Science student and definitely having a bias towards

> > Mathematics, I have always sought to reduce any concept or idea

to

> > simple rules.

> >

> > I am reminded of a Mathematics term " Axiom " . It means " A self-

> > evident principle or one that is accepted as true without proof

as

> > the basis for argument; a postulate " .

> >

> > Can Gita be reduced to an Axiom. I often wonder !

> >

> > St. Augustine said, " Faith is to believe what you do not see; the

> > reward of this faith is to see what you believe " .

> >

> > The route to achieving the goal as prescribed in Gita is to

pursue

> > diligently what is said in Gita, taking it as an Axiom, and at

> every

> > stage experiencing the change within.

> >

> > Have I experienced any change? Yes.

> >

> > I have seen changes in myself with reference to Anger, I have

seen

> > the benefits of Acceptance, and am sure several of the Sadhakas

> > experience the changes within which gives them the confidence

that

> > they are in THE PATH.

> >

> > Thanks for the query

> >

> > Hari Om

> > Jayaraman

> > ------------------------------

> > All these explanations are in a stand point of Intellect

only.....

> >

> > Do you believe that you have Father and Grand Father or Great

> Grand

> > Father.. or Great Great Grand Father?

> >

> > Do you believe you exist? Then all our Sastras also exist...

> >

> > I got a big laugh when our present remote sensing Sonia asked

> about

> > Sri Rama's Birth Certificate, what a foolishness.....

> >

> > All these are in the argument level. Can you show you have

> Brains..

> > I need proof. I need to see the brain physically not through

image

> > scanning!!

> >

> > May GOD Bless

> >

> > Krishna Prasad

> >

> > --------------------------------

> > , " sadhak_insight "

> > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Dear Daniel

> > > There are three words a) information b) knowledge c) truth.

> > > Information is empirical or a typical case like history, or

> court

> > > case with names and places and details of observervation. Akbar

> > and

> > > Ashoka both are rulers but student of history can not substitue

> > one

> > > with another.

> > >

> > > Knowledge is not information but a model or theoretical/logical

> > > model which is not dependent on a given history or experiment

> but

> > is

> > > always there in some form or the other. Physics is not a given

> > > history but ever present (sanaatan, nitya) and f = force, g=

> > > gravity, v= velocity are symbol of characters which takes any

> > names

> > > and places in value. Physics can thus, predict any information

> > > without specific names. This 'physics' which is nitya, sanaatan

> is

> > > thus an example of knowledge.

> > >

> > > Satya (truth) is one step beyond the knowledge. It is universal

> > > knowledge and therefore known naturally to all f us without

> > effort,

> > > and common to all. Because it is common, there cannot exist

> > > differences in opinon, and thus no conflict. Gandhi therefore

> > > defined truth in its property of non voilence. In other words,

> if

> > > understanding of Bhagwat Gita makes one contemplative and

> > > independent, and free from anexiety, conflict then this is

> Truth.

> > >

> > > Science is not truth but a way to truth. This is a know how of

> > > already known things. If there is no truth, there can not be

> > > sciences explaining that. Thus, truth is the aim of all

> > knowledges.

> > > It can only be realized but when it comes to explanation, it

> > becomes

> > > sciences.

> > >

> > > I cannot write how many times in Bhagwat Gita, satya (Truth)

and

> > > gyan (Knowledge) are used differently, and accurate absolutely.

> > >

> > > Best regards

> > > K G

> > > (Krishna Gopal)

> > > ------------------------------

-

> > > Jai Shri Krishna,

> > >

> > > Re: Sadhak Daniel's query - Q 1

> > >

> > > Vyas Ji has beautifully addressed Sadhak Daniel's query on

> > > Acceptance.

> > >

> > > Acceptance is FAR MORE Superior than learning (knowledge).

> > Whatever

> > > one accepts in life, one never forgets, whereas anything learnt

> > can

> > > always be forgotten, partially or completely. If you are woken

> up

> > in

> > > the middle of the night and asked what is your marital status,

> you

> > > will not need even a second to think before answering this

> > question

> > > because you have firmly accepted that you are bachelor, married

> or

> > > widower.

> > >

> > > At least in the Indian context, a chaste (Pativrata) woman,

> > accepts

> > > her relationship with the person she marries just by the saying

> of

> > > the Priest performing the matrimonial rituals. The acceptance

is

> > > instant and so firm that even after say 50 years of the death

of

> > her

> > > husband she becomes vigilant whenever anyone takes her

husband's

> > > name. She can never forget the acceptance of the man as her

> > husband.

> > > A Suhagan (a married woman with her husband alive) does not see

> > > herself as 'Widow' even in her dreams - that is the power of

> > > ACCEPTANCE.

> > >

> > > We all will vouch for the fact that many things we learn in

life

> > > (knowledge acquired), we tend to forget with time. BUT no one

> > > forgets whatever one accepts once.

> > >

> > > Use of underestimating words such as " simply " is apt at best to

> > > learning (knowledge) only. Acceptance is on top at 100 on on a

> > scale

> > > where learning is at 1.

> > >

> > > Narayan Narayan

> > >

> > > Rajendra J Bohra

> > >

> > > ------------------------------

--

> > > Why we should believe in the Gita or for that matter the Vedas?

> > >

> > > Belief in anything is useless in itself. Yet, belief alone can

> let

> > > anyone start one's journey toward anything including

> spirituality.

> > >

> > > You cannot derive benefit from anything – be it Gita or Vedas

or

> > > cough medicine – unless you have a belief to start with. It is

> our

> > > habit to ignore things unless we have a belief. Therefore, one

> > > should have belief in something if one wants to derive benefits

> > from

> > > anything. Belief is the key to the door for any body of

knowledge

> > > including Vedanta.

> > >

> > > If we make our beleifs our path we won't go anywhere just like

a

> > > blind man following another blind man. Belief cannot reap the

> > fruits

> > > from anything unless we adapt to the path we choose. Threfore,

> it

> > is

> > > what you understand and realize from the scripts that matters

for

> > > our progress. Carrying out anything without understanding is

even

> > > worse than not doing it since we could channel our resources to

> > what

> > > helps us. Understanding is the key to tread the path we choose

> > > including spiritual practice.

> > >

> > > But, even if we understand great meanings out of the scripts,

it

> is

> > > of no use unless it is adapted in our life. No matter what we

> > > understand in our thought process, we continue to fidget in our

> > > lives contrary to our very understanding unless the knowledge

> > > perculates to our atomic existence in its subtlety and clarity.

> It

> > > is what we are that matters at any point of time – before the

> path

> > > wherein no belief has dawned, in the path wherein the belief

has

> > > kicked off the process, and all along the path wherein the

> > knowledge

> > > trickles into our living, in its purity. After all what we

would

> be

> > > matters no matter we took guidance from an Upanishad or from a

> Veda

> > > or from The Gita or from any other scriptures or from The Life

as

> > > such.

> > >

> > > The idea is to be at peace. The litmus test for our state in

the

> > > path is the happiness. Anything that deviates us from our

natural

> > > state of peace and happiness is reveals the play of our

ignorance

> > > and alerts us to explore and fix the same at once. To jump

start

> > > ourselves in such a process we should believe in Vedas. To keep

> in

> > > pace with the process, we should understand the Vedas. To be

one

> > with

> > > the process, we should be the Vedas.

> > >

> > > Veda means Knowledge. Knowledge means Bliss. Bliss is The

Truth.

> We

> > > should be grateful to the Faith as it put us in the path of

> > > Knowledge. We should be grateful to the Knowledge as it marches

> us

> > > toward the Bliss. We should be grateful to the Bliss as it

keeps

> us

> > > with the Truth. All are excellent as far as they are correctly

> > > placed and practiced.

> > >

> > > Respects.

> > >

> > > Naga Narayana.

> > >

> > > ------------------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > >

> > > Jai hree Krishna Pryia Bhandus

> > >

> > > Based on my understanding, Gita/Vedas are the origins of

> LANGUAGE,

> > > MATHS AND SCIENCE. Here is an example of Math and the number

> ZERO.

> > > Origins from SANYAS into Arabic SIFER to Latin CIFER and

english

> > > ZERO.

> > >

> > > As I understand, the concept of Nothingness came from Vedic

> > thought

> > > as well. SANATAN DHARMA represents Eternal and ultimate TRUTH.

> > > These Eternal Truths existed even before creation, just like

> > gravity

> > > existed even before Newton labeled it as gravity, when he

> observed

> > > the apple falling from a tree.

> > >

> > > Jai Hind

> > > Jayesh A Patel

> > > London

> > >

> > > , " sadhak_insight "

> > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Hari Om

> > > >

> > > > Re Saadhak Daniel's Queries - Reply to Question No 1

> > > >

> > > > There are too many queries emanating in reality. First let

> me

> > > > summarise them. Then a separate reply shall be given for each

> > > query.

> > > > In the end we shall conclude- so that time and space

> > requirements

> > > of

> > > > Moderator also remain complied with.

> > > >

> > > > Q 1 Is Gita simply a matter of Acceptance?

> > > >

> > > > Q 2 Is there scientific explanation ( other than

acceptance) ?

> > > >

> > > > Q 3 Why we should believe in the Gita or for that purpose

> the

> > > > Vedas?

> > > >

> > > > Q 4 How do you explain to some one that whatever is

explained

> > in

> > > > Gita is truthful ?

> > > >

> > > > Q 5 How do we know the real source of Gita?

> > > >

> > > > Q 6 Is there anything in the Gita that provides scientific

> > view /

> > > > explanation or anything that addresses the Origin of Vedas/

> Gita?

> > > >

> > > > Now these are the six questions, which Brother Daniel has

> asked,

> > > at

> > > > the same time acknowledging that he has been studying Gita

and

> > > > believes that everything stated therein is truth. He wants

now

> > to

> > > > make others believe that.

> > > >

> > > > In this posting first I will take Q no 1. Every day I shall

> > > address

> > > > one question and in the end shall conclude.

> > > >

> > > > IS GITA SIMPLY A MATTER OF ACCEPTANCE?

> > > >

> > > > Everything in this world basically is a matter of acceptance

> > only.

> > > > Why to single out Gita? Take your birth for example. Can you

> say

> > > > based on the " knowledge " - your own personal knowledge -as to

> > who

> > > is

> > > > your father? You don't remember your birth. Whoever gave you

> > love

> > > > and affection in the beginning was your mother and to

> whosoever

> > > she

> > > > pointed out was your father! How will you prove that Mr So

and

> > So

> > > is

> > > > your father ? THERE IS NO WAY ANYBODY CAN PROVE BASED ON HIS

> > > > KNOWLEDGE THAT HE IS SON OF MR SO AND SO

> > > >

> > > > I repeat no way! This is a fact. Anybody can raise a separate

> > > query

> > > > on this. You have to accept only in the beginning. Later on

> the

> > > > knowledge comes. It is your acceptance level which opens the

> > door

> > > of

> > > > knowledge in life. When you accept that you are son of so and

> > so,

> > > > that acceptance keeps strengthening in you and when you

become

> > > adult

> > > > or old , your talking, walking styles, your physique or

> > mannerism

> > > > start resembling to your father ! First you have to accept.

> You

> > > > accept first that alphabet A comes before alphabet B, later

on

> > you

> > > > may become a Professor of English language. You have to

accept

> > > first

> > > > that one plus one is two- later on you can get a Doctorate

in

> > > > mathematics! Why one plus one is 2 and not 3? Why do you

> > pronounce

> > > A

> > > > as A and not as B? You accepted first. Later on you became

> > > > knowledgeable! Just as you accepted someone to be your

father,

> > you

> > > > have to first accept God also. Later on all explanations and

> > > logics

> > > > will flow. You cant establish by knowledge the identity of

> your

> > > own

> > > > father, where is the question then of establishing

> > > > the eternal father , the God? Same is for Gita also which is

> the

> > > > voice of that God only- whose identity you cant establish

> based

> > on

> > > > your knowledge. God is beyond knowledge. God or Gita or our

> > > fathers

> > > > all are matter of belief and acceptance. Yes Gita is a

matter

> > of

> > > > acceptance! What is wrong with that? If you start making a

> list-

> > > you

> > > > will find uncountable things in life which you accepted

first.

> > We

> > > > shall deal with it later on with specific reference.

> > > >

> > > > Jai Shree Krishna

> > > >

> > > > Vyas N B

> > > >

> > > > ----------------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > > Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

> > > >

> > > > Very good question, " One has studied Gita for some time and

> > > believes

> > > > that it has absolute truth, but how do you explain to someone

> > else

> > > > logically that Gita has the truth? "

> > > >

> > > > The way I understand is that belief in truth has a place in

> > > > organized religions. However the truth as taught in Gita or

> Veda

> > > or

> > > > other such scriptures is to be experienced. The teaching is

> > about

> > > > the reality of " I " , the world, and God, and above all how

they

> > are

> > > > related to each other. Simply belief in the truth will not

> work

> > in

> > > > this case as it is not organized around God, the truth. Gita

> is

> > > not

> > > > dogmatic. Many possibilities are explained rather than

> preached

> > > > specific. When one's belief is replaced with knowing

> > > experientially,

> > > > one knows how to explain to others!

> > > >

> > > > Second difficulty is that the experience of God is unlike all

> > > other

> > > > experiences which are all objective knowledge through sense

> > > organs,

> > > > mind and intellect. All such experiences are limited in

scope.

> > God

> > > > is that Knowingness itself through which everything else is

> > known

> > > to

> > > > exist in the first place and that which cannot be

objectified,

> > > When

> > > > objectified, God becomes limited object of our belief. Belief

> in

> > > God

> > > > takes one up to a certain point, never to final salvation..

> > > >

> > > > Lord Krishna is speaking unspeakable only because we need to

> > > > communicate to ohers with a full knowledge that it is only a

> > > pointer

> > > > to truth. One has to walk accordingly.

> > > >

> > > > Such being the case, my suggestion would be to explain these

> > above

> > > > points first. Then one has to study with open mind, asking

> > > > questions, doubting, and not resting until answers become

> > > > convictions and resonate within oneself. True Understanding

of

> > > > verses culminate into bursts of joy and satisfaction. This is

> a

> > > test

> > > > of experience of truth. In this regard help of like minded

> > > friends,

> > > > realized teacher, and platform such as this group is highly

> > > > recommended. The one to whom we want to explain has to be

> > > interested

> > > > in truth and approach us to have a meaningful explanation.

> > > >

> > > > Namaskars...Pratap

> > > > (Pratap Bhatt)

> > > >

> > > > ----------------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > > Dear seeker of permanent truths,

> > > >

> > > > The physical, subtle and causal Truths are found by two

> methods

> > > viz.

> > > > either Inductive or Deductive. Inductive methods are normally

> > > > applied in physical sciences and scientific findings go on

> > > changing.

> > > > Newtonian Physics of inert matter has vastly changed as

matter

> > is

> > > > now having unsuspected vitality. Even steel feels fatigue.

> > Science

> > > > once said Earth is static and Sun is moving, now Sceince has

> > > > accepted Sun is stationary and earth is moving. Biology is

> > > changing

> > > > every day.

> > > >

> > > > The permanent truths found through deductive methods known to

> > > human

> > > > soul (apriori knowledge) contained in Vedas, Bhagavd Gita and

> > > > Upanishads have been challenged, criticised and even people

> like

> > > > great materialists Charvakas said it was going back to the

> > ancient

> > > > period. BUT till date not proved wrong even by the great

> > > scientists

> > > > of any age-past and present. On the contrary even Newton,

> > Einstein

> > > > and many others confirrmed about the existence of Supreme

> > Reality.

> > > > Einstein even put a board outside his laboratory " Thou art

> > That " .

> > > > and said God does not play dice.

> > > >

> > > > Deductive method is based on Metaphysics (beyond

> Physics/matter)

> > > > which Bhagavd Gita says is the supreme science. The rsis and

> > > munnies

> > > > (metaphysicists and wandering sages)of yore got these

> permanent

> > > > truths through their omniscient souls. Vedic truths in regard

> to

> > > > matter are now being proved even in the laboratory of

> scientists

> > > > relating to atom, sub atomic particles, physical sciences.

But

> > > > truths relating to subtle matters like subtle divine Nature,

> > > > location of subtle instruments in human body like Vivek

(power

> > of

> > > > discernment, Ego, Buddhi (intellect), manas (inward looking

> > mind),

> > > > physical scientist can never find. They only know about

> > maaterial

> > > > instruments in the human body like senses, sense organs etc.

> > > >

> > > > If truths contained in Vedas and Bhagavad Gita are to be

> > accepted

> > > on

> > > > blind faith, it is better not to accept and one should

> continue

> > > > facing material happiness or sorrows in this vast turbulent

> sea

> > of

> > > > matter. But one who is convinced of the much higher deductive

> > > > methods of finding truths, will accept Bhagavad Gita and

Vedas

> > as

> > > > Shruti - revealed through the human soul which is subtle

> > particle

> > > of

> > > > the Supreme Soul (Parmatma).

> > > > with kind regards,

> > > >

> > > > P.K.Sabhlok

> > > >

> > > > ----------------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > -

> > > > Dear TKach.

> > > >

> > > > I think the Moderator would/may respond to this one query.

> > Staying

> > > > with the group's exchanges so far, would have already shed

> some

> > > > light on these Truths.

> > > >

> > > > To me as a sadhak; A real " believer's " is he whose conviction

> is

> > > > fully realised and becomes one with it. It is not about

blind

> > > > faith.

> > > >

> > > > Even the scientist person like Newton in a question of him

> being

> > > the

> > > > greatest person, came out stating that " people say I know so

> so

> > > > much; but in fact my knowledge is just like an atom of dust

at

> > the

> > > > sea-shore...while I have so much to gain the knowledge ... " .

> The

> > > > Science or seeking scientific reasons being only or related

to

> > > > physics or a form and being limited - cannot in anyway define

> > the

> > > > omni-present and all-prevading GOD.

> > > >

> > > > This subject is of HEART before the BRAIN.

> > > >

> > > > Best Regards

> > > >

> > > > Kishin Chandiramani

> > > >

> > > > ----------------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > --

> > > > Dear Sadak,

> > > >

> > > > Geetha starts, " EITHI UPANATHSHU " . That means Geetha is juice

> of

> > > > Upanashids/Vedas.

> > > >

> > > > From my personal view the Geetha is Do`s and Dont`s. Rules

> laid

> > to

> > > > guide one from human to divinity. Once human level raises to

> > > > divinity, he becomes realized in conscience level.

> > > >

> > > > If one believes Geetha and strictly PRACTICES what Krishna

> says,

> > > > that person becomes " Gunaa Theethan " , as Bagavan himself

said.

> > The

> > > > question any one of you can ask yourself, " Am I practicing

> basic

> > > > princlples of Geetha, speaking truth (alignment of thought,

> word

> > > and

> > > > deed at the conscience level), seeing Bagavan (God

> Consciousness)

> > > in

> > > > all living creatures, getting up early in morning and atleast

> > > > thinking of Bagavan, controling senses - tongue in eating

> > (Bagavan

> > > > said in Geetha how Gunas affect a person due to food) and in

> > > talking

> > > > (Not causing the least pain by words spoken), Bagavan

> > > says, " Indriya

> > > > (Organs of actions) control. Do we do this?

> > > >

> > > > After this comes Bagavan saying, " Kama yeshu- Krodha yeshu

> etc " .

> > > > From desire comes anger, from anger comes greed etc. Simply

> by

> > > > understanding these words through vivek (discriminative

> faculty)

> > > one

> > > > can become calms and experience Ananda (it is bliss, with no

> > > > opposite, it is not happiness). The opposity of Happiness is

> > > > sorrow, such as health and sickess, so on. But for Ananda

> there

> > is

> > > > no opposite. Some people just by reading Bagavath Geetha feel

> > > happy,

> > > > then what to speak of application in one's life; Imagine the

> > glory.

> > > >

> > > > Coming to scientific explanation, Geetha says, " Prana, Samana

> > etc "

> > > 5

> > > > pranas, which scientist accepts 5 elements of air we breath.

> > Over

> > > > night kept food forments and produces certain chemical change

> > next

> > > > day says Geetha. Scientist say food kept in store for a night

> > and

> > > > used next day causes surge in immune system. But Geetha has

> gone

> > > > much deeper than scientist by says how our brain is affected.

> > > >

> > > > There is everything in Geetha for the whole creation. But one

> > does

> > > > not make the effort to read and deeply contemplate on hidden

> > > truths.

> > > >

> > > > Now coming to Sri Krishna: HE had 108 Sidhis, able to lift

> > > mountain,

> > > > kill demons, bring back the dead son of HIS Guru Sandipan`s

> dead

> > > son

> > > > to life. HIS teaching gives more insight about human way of

> > living

> > > > that could elevate to Moksha. In HIS life time were there any

> > > > mistakes? HE is therefore believed by saints as " Jagath

GURU " .

> > > >

> > > > Sri Krishna says, that one needs to under go several birth to

> > > start

> > > > to say " Om Namo Narayanaya " . So the ones who do not believe

in

> > HIM

> > > > is our brothers/sisters are on the way striving to reach that

> > > level.

> > > > Therefore there should be no dislike/hatred to be shown to

any

> > > > persons, as Sri Krishna says, " See ME in all creation " . One

> may

> > > > believe in Geetha but if one should have even in conscience

> > level

> > > a

> > > > small dislike on the person who disbelieves Sri Krishna/

> Geetha,

> > > > then such a person is not true Visnavite.

> > > >

> > > > B.Sathyanarayan

> > > > ----------------------------

--

> --

> > -

> > > >

> > > > , " sadhak_insight "

> > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > Haribol!!

> > > > >

> > > > > Can anyone explain why we should believe in the Gita or for

> > that

> > > > > matter the Vedas?

> > > > >

> > > > > I've been studying Bhagavad Gita for some time, and I

> believe

> > > > everything

> > > > > that is there is the absolute truth, but how do you explain

> to

> > > > someone

> > > > > else that this is the truth? It is not enough to say " it

> comes

> > > from

> > > > > Krsna " " just accept Krsna " . It has to be a more scientific

> and

> > > > thorough

> > > > > explanation, do you know what I mean?

> > > > >

> > > > > I'd like to be able to explain to someone why this is the

> > truth,

> > > > how do

> > > > > we know the real source !

> > > > >

> > > > > Is there anything in the Gita that provides scientific

view /

> > > > > explanation or anything that addresses the Origin of the

> > Vedas /

> > > > Gita ?

> > > > >

> > > > > Hare Krsna!! Thanks.

> > > > >

> > > > > Daniel Tkach

> > > > >

> > > > > FROM THE MODERATOR

> > > > >

> > > > > GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES:

> > > > > The Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify their

> > doubts

> > > > > related to Gitaji shlokas. To ensure that both the

questions

> > and

> > > > the

> > > > > responses are focused, pointed and brief, the guidelines

for

> > > Gita-

> > > > Talk

> > > > > discussions are being modified and are being sent to you.

> > > > >

> > > > > The following are the guidelines for Gita-Talk discussions.

> > > > >

> > > > > GUIDELINES FOR POSTING A QUESTION:

> > > > >

> > > > > 1. The group is focused on the Holy Gitaji and clarifying

> any

> > > > doubts,

> > > > > therefore only questions that pertain to Gitaji will be

> posted

> > > in

> > > > the

> > > > > future.

> > > > >

> > > > > 2. Please restrict the number of questions asked to only

one

> > at

> > > a

> > > > time.

> > > > >

> > > > > 3. Making reference of Gitaji shloka is compulsory - at

> least

> > > once

> > > > in

> > > > > the question.

> > > > >

> > > > > 4. Please be specific with the question, relating the

> practical

> > > > > difficulties being faced by the Sadhak. Specifics around,

> > where

> > > is

> > > > the

> > > > > sadhak facing obstacles in his spiritual journey, in the

> > > teachings

> > > > of

> > > > > Geetaji, in principles laid down by Swamiji or other

> Mahatamas

> > > are

> > > > > highly recommended to be included.

> > > > >

> > > > > 5. General questions will not be considered for future

> posting.

> > > > > e.g. " suicide " " solving world hunger " etc.

> > > > >

> > > > > GUIDELINES FOR POSTING A RESPONSE:

> > > > >

> > > > > 1. The group is focused on the Holy Gitaji, therefore, only

> > > > responses

> > > > > which further clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will be

> > > posted.

> > > > >

> > > > > 2. Making reference of Gitaji shloka is highly encouraged -

> at

> > > > least

> > > > > once in the response. Wherever possible, please quote

> Gitaji

> > or

> > > > other

> > > > > scriptures to substantiate your response.

> > > > >

> > > > > 3. Please be as concise and to the point as possible,

> > respecting

> > > > > sadhaka's time. Under no circustance the answer should

> exceed

> > > say

> > > > one

> > > > > page at the most (500 words or so).

> > > > >

> > > > > 4. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc.

to

> > the

> > > > > extent that they further help in understanding the Gita

> shlokas

> > > > >

> > > > > 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only.

> > > > >

> > > > > 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other

> > > > > organizations.

> > > > >

> > > > > 7. Complete reproduction of texts from any book is strongly

> > > > > discouraged, however references may be made of the book or

> > > author

> > > > (but

> > > > > not links to other sites).

> > > > >

> > > > > 8. Kindly do not include your personal information such as

> > phone

> > > > > number, address etc.

> > > > >

> > > > > 9. Please do not address the response to a particular

> > individual

> > > > since

> > > > > the message is going to the entire group.

> > > > >

> > > > > 10. Due to the large readership, only those responses will

> be

> > > > posted

> > > > > which are in line with the general philosophy of taking

> Shrimad

> > > > > Bhagavad Gita as the reference.

> > > > >

> > > > > 11. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if

> > > > content is

> > > > > unclear for distribution or not directly related to the

> > question

> > > > being

> > > > > asked.

> > > > >

> > > > > 12. Please respond taking into consideration the novices,

> > youth,

> > > > > westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use of

> > only

> > > > > Sanskrit words, rather provide the English word with

Sanskrit

> > > > > bracketed wherever possible.

> > > > >

> > > > > MODERATOR

> > > > > Ram Ram

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

June 27, 2008

Hari Om

Re Saadhak Daniel's Queries – Reply to Q no 4

HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN TO SOMEONE THAT WHATEVER IS EXPLAINED IN GITA IS

TRUTHFUL ?

At the outset, you must ensure that your making efforts to convince

others do not lead to your incurring a " sin " within the meaning of

Gita 18 : 67 !

In Gita 18 : 67 - Lord Krishna forbids Arjuna, to unfold the

supreme secret gospel, the secret of all the other secrets, as

mentioned in the preceding verse - 18:66 - to those who are

undeserving. Lord said - " This is never to be mentioned by you, to

anyone who does not perform any austerities, nor has any devotion,

nor who is unwilling to hear, nor he who finds fault with Me. " !

Once you have ensured that based on these four criteria, the person

is found to be deserving, you can make efforts to explain to him.

Your such efforts then will fall into the scope of Gita 18 : 68

which says - " He who, with supreme devotion to Me teaches this

supreme secret to My devotees, shall doubtless, come to Me alone.

There is no doubt about it " . In the next verse 18:69 He says- " There

is, none among men who does more loving service to Me than he: nor

shall there be, another on earth, dearer to Me than him " These 2

verses e.g. 18: 68 and 18:69 as well as 18:67 are with reference to

18 : 66 only.

Thereafter God says in 18:70 – " And, he who contemplates this sacred

dialogue of ours, he shall be worshipping Me, through the sacrifice

(yajna) of knowledge (wisdom) - such is my conviction " ! Verse

18:70 is with reference to Gita as a whole.

You yourself stated that you are studying Gita and you believe that

whatever is stated there in is truth. Find out the reasons of your

belief and your conviction and use them to convince others. You must

have got enough clues from material shared so far about this sacred

text. Many learned Saadhaks have participated in this discussion so

far. From each participation you can draw gems. Have belief. Have

courage and go ahead fearlessly and perform " Jnana Yajna "

(Selflessly sharing the Divine Knowledge and Wisdom " .

Here I must state that generally there is no benefit in insisting

for anything too much. Basically we must understand that all are

children of God, irrespective of their beliefs/present

status/willingness and convictions. There are systems and laws

already prevailing in the world – Laws of Mother Nature – that are

ceaselessly focused to attract and magnetically pull all of us

towards the truth. We can only become humble mediums under Gita

18:70, if we are fully confident and fully clear about what we are

talking.. Then it becomes immaterial whether we have been successful

in our endeavour or not. You cannot satisfy any body on this earth

if he does not want to get satisfied. To get convinced is a matter

of acceptance. As I told earlier,there are systems and laws of

Mother Nature already operating. You must also respect those laws of

Mother Nature. Ultimately, a person gets attracted to religion only

when there is something " fiercely burning inside him " – to quote

Brother Mike Keenoor who spoke from his soul really, while replying

to another question posed in this group . Notice also Brother Mike's

reply to your query yesterday. He said in his opening remarks ---

" A person who I had made acquaintance with under strange

circumstances , one day he said …………. " . Now what these types

of " strange circumstances " indicate? They indicate that laws of

Mother Nature are operating in the world consistently to draw all

of us towards the truth, towards the reality, towards the God.

Everything which happens in our lives – if we care to analyse- will

invariably indicate to us that such laws are ceaselessly operating.

Hence we can afford to be rather careful and patient in our

endeavours. You must appreciate that real curiosity, is not aroused

in any man so long a man does not get disenchanted with mundane

affairs, and does not become dispassionate. When he becomes

restless, in the mundane maze, to find out the way, he has a heart

to heart talk with a person, from whom he expects right guidance.

When a cow feeds a calf with her milk, the more hungry the calf is,

with more force he pulls the udders and the entire milk of the cow

comes gushing to the mother cow's udders, from other areas.

We should however know that in today's world, more often than not,

our over insistence may prove counter productive also particularly,

if we ourselves are not fully convinced or certain about anything

and then we may be doing a disservice and may be achieving an

opposite result. That we must never do. Truth has its own power.

Water makes it's own way. If we are solid in our convictions and

faith and if the other is willing – then there is nothing wrong in

doing him this service. We will then please our father. We will then

become the dearest to the God - Gita 18:69.

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

-----------------------------Dear

Sadhaks,

Mr.Daniel req: Scientific findings in Geetha.

Atom was said indivisable. Later said protron, nutron,electron.

Again science is going to say the three are also having 6 parts in

each. Again much later each part is having 3 micro atoms. Each of

these micro atom has got violet coloured super micro atoms which

cannot be measured. Human has got 6 DNA. Each DNA are having 6

parts. Each part has 3 microzomes which are cause for human body

function- age, moods, charactors, organ functional period etc. This

DNA theory is in web site and approved science. Regarding atom,

science now saying protron can be divided.

Read Geetha very carefully these are all stated in it.

Given the exact date of birth, time, place of birth, one can find

out what you are and what you were. This science is said in Kapila

Geetha.

There was Noah Arc (ship) built by Noah when GOD said from space

that there is going to be biggest tsunami (Maha pralaya), so Noah

should go in ship along with species of animals. Here in Hindu

purana A saint heard voice from space mahapralaya is coming, build a

ship and load species of animal and food. GOD (voice) said , " I will

take you to Meru mountain during floods. It did happen where Sri

Vishnu took avathar of big fish and dragged the ship to Meru. Voice

from space called " ASARIR "

Old testament says the world is square. Hinduism says 4 square

within a square is called 4 yugas life span of earth.

Jesus said when slapped show the other cheek. Hinduism says clearly,

if a person slaps someone, that person is doing good, as the

person`s account is getting credited with the sin transfered from

the one being slapped. So showing another cheek further reduces the

sin of the one getting beaten. Christ endured even during

crucification and attained an astral body. This is also said in

Geetha

Now there is scientific study on so many things that are already in

Vedas and Geetha. Person's Aura, Child learning even in Womb and

attaining divinity (e.g. Prahlad), Funnel systems of human scienve

versus conducive environments created for rebirth; Black Hole

theory versus Krishna taking Arjuna to the Worlds beyond...past

black hole to the land of Vaikunth.

In Geetha Bagavan spoke of other worlds 2X7 worlds i.e. 14 worlds..

Read today's paper " The Hindu " , where it states that scientists are

finding earth similar to ours.

Geetha reveals to us about, " Stitha Pragnyan " . Scientist say 16

thousands billion cells in human brain capable of controlling

anything on earth when all the cells are focused to one point and

used. Normally we use only a fraction of these cells that a " Stitha

Pragnyan " does.

In Geetha--- It is said there are 84 Lac (8.4 milion) living

species. It addresses distances of planets from earth. Science is

now only discovering these.

God (Bagavan) said, " I am in everything, but I am not that " . See

nature and think of the creator. See ocean, think of creator. See an

angry person, think of the creator, WHO created the diverse people

and creatures ? SO on.

God (Bagavan) showed His Universal Form (Viswaroop) to Arjuna.

Viswam (whole creation) is His form. Contemplating on it, one can

think whether seed came first or tree came first. Can science

answer? But Hindu scriptures has answers to these.

Earth goes by Maha Pralaya (water), water eaten away by maha

pralayagni (fire), fire disappers by maha Vayu (great winds), winds

vanishes in avakthiyam (space), space takes abode in Paramathuma

(God)

From where does--- Jackal get his cunningness, a 14 year boy

effortlessly plays musically instrument, rich man turns poor and

poor turns rich, a man clinicaly totally fit but from where the

tumor started, a chain smoker never gets cancer, but a healthy man

gets, the ecological imbalances, what causes untold disasters, etc

all such answers are there in the Gita. God (Bagavan) in Geetha

reveals to us Prakurthi (Nature and Creation). Defenition is there

in the scriptures. There is everything in Geetha, nothing is left

incomplete, not addressed or left out. But each word has to be

refered from vedas/upanashids etc

H2O is water. Hydrogen and Oxygen says science. But water has 6

elements. Water taken in palm and drunk 6 times saying, " Pranaya

Swaha, Appanaya swaha, Dynaya Swaha, etc ending Bramaneya Swaha',

results in smooth and effective functioning of the pulmonary system.

Science is yet to do findings on this.

In Gyana Marg in Geetha Bagavan says that yogi by constant spiritual

practice (sadhana) can activate charkras and send power from

mooladhara through Susuba Naadi (a nerve in spinal cord) to kapalam

(skull) and through a very small opening sends himself (athman) to

heavens reaching ME. Science is now finding a special nerve that is

going from bottom of spinal cord to the skull is performing

electrical and magnetic energies at differant levels. But scientist

yet have to find out how this actually functions? Bagavan said this

in Geetha but to know more about such details about this nervous

system, bagavan refers one has to read Patanjali Yoga a scrip

written by saint Patanjali.

There is so much more... there is no end to what is already in the

Vedas, Upanishads and Geetha.

Namaste.

B.Sathyanarayan

------------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

Few more beautiful responses from Sadhakas inspired me to build on

some of views about Gita being scientific or not. It doesn't matter

really as it is said here, it is beyond Science and all other

knowledge desciplines and yet supporting all knowledge.

Scientific knowledge is limited as it is based on observations of

objects outside. It has never studied the real Observer who makes

observations possible. It cannot, because the Observer is not an

object of perception and conception like all scientific studies

require. Science can give only an empirical knowledge based on

observations by a scientist to be confirmed by many others.

Vedanta says all such knowledge desciplines have relative values but

in reality they are Avidya(nescience or paravidya). The only Vidya

(knowledge) is that of Knowingness-Consciousness Itself by which we

know all things or nothing. I mean even ignorance needs this

Consciousness to shine it to be able to say " I don't know " .

No one can ever know " objects in themselves " . We take our sense

perceptions and subsequent conceptions by mind, to be the objects

external to us as science does which is not true.

Our experience of objects is one of being aware of thought-feelings

triggered by objects. Our reality, as Naga Narayanaji put it, is

Being THAT, the Absolute! Gitaji has such pointers throughout the

chapters. In my view, it is better understood in the Upanisadic

context to really benefit.

Namaskaras, Pratap

(Pratap Bhatt)

------------------------------

Best way of knowing the truth is to experience the truth.

If it transforms you increasing your happiness level then it is the

truth. No need for believing straightaway. Experience it first.

The questions like the origin of Vedas / scientific explanations can

be important at some level but are irrelevant. Wisdom/ the truth is

important.

Wisdom is the set of rules of life, which govern us.

Sushil Jain

Sri Vyas ji,

Jai Sri Krishna,

I have been reading GEETA JI recently and with a desire to know

more, have joined this group. Your explainations about science and

Geeta ji has been very clear and I am deeply moved by it.

Pranam to you and your knowledge,

Ravi Shahi

, " sadhak_insight "

<sadhak_insight wrote:

>

> Hari Om

>

> Re Saadhak Daniel's Queries- Reply to Q no 3

>

> WHY WE SHOULD BELIEVE IN GITA / VEDAS ?

>

> A really good question. The best among the 6 questions. Many

> powerful reasons can be given. However I shall give one reason

only.

> May be that clicks too. The briefest answer is " YOU SHOULD

BELIEVE

> IN GITA/VEDAS TO SATISFY ALL OF YOUR DESIRES – CONCLUSIVELY " ! !

>

> Every human being has desires to fulfil. Entire humanity with no

> exception is doing only the acts to fulfil their desires. There

is

> nothing else ! that each one of us is doing at present. It is

quite

> natural also because, in fact you have been given human birth only

> to fulfil your desires. Desires are born along with you. It is a

> law that if you have any desire then the element to fulfil that

> desire is also existing. You cannot have a desire for a thing

which

> does not exist. For example, none of us has a desire to get

> say " flower of sky " . That is because the flower of sky does not

> exist. If we have thirst, that necessarily means that there exists

> water on the planet. Had there been no water existing on the

planet

> we would not have felt thirsty. So the principle is – if you have

a

> desire there exists invariably an element to fulfil that desire.

It

> is also a law that if you have a desire then the power to fulfil

> that desire is also existing in you. That is the kindness of God

and

> that is justice also ! So you have a desire existing. You also

have

> that element existing which fulfils that desire. You have powers

> also to fulfil that desire. Once these three meet- then the desire

> gets fulfilled and thereby extinguishes. Then there remains no

> desire.

>

> Now what are your desires? They are not uncountable as we

generally

> believe. They are only three basically. (1) TO KNOW SOMETHING;

(2)

> TO DO SOMETHING ; and (3) TO GET SOMETHING. ( If any Reader can

> provide fourth desire - welcome. Some may feel " desire to live' "

to

> be the 4th . But that desire is included in (3)- " to get " -

> longevity/ immortality). All desires ultimately get classified

into

> these 3 categories. To fulfil these desires you have three powers

> with us. (1) power to know ; (2) power to do and ( 3 ) power to

> believe/accept. These are the powers we have. We don't have a

power

> to get. That which we are to get is realised by us , if we have

> exercised our power to believe/accept correctly. It is also a law

> that if we fulfil any one of the above three desires conclusively,

> then the balance two desires get automatically fulfilled.

>

> Now about the third element of the trinity. The element which

> fulfils the desire. What is that element ? With respect to the

first

> desire- to know something- the element has to be " that element

> after knowing which nothing remains to be known " Then there

should

> not remain anything to be known. You have known everything.

> Similarly your desire to do something can extinguish only when you

> have done that thing after doing which nothing remains to be done,

> the very desire to do something should extinguish. The same is

with

> your desire to get something. This can extinguish only when you

have

> got that thing after getting which nothing remains to get (to be

> attained). The very desire to get something should extinguish. So

> the yardstick for fulfilment of desire is- extinguishment of

> desire. What else can be the yardstick ? It is also a law that you

> cannot remain peaceful unless you have fulfilled your desires!

> Naturally! How can you remain peaceful when the very purpose of

your

> getting human life is not fulfilled? Needless to say that if today

> you have these three desires existing in you then most certainly

you

> have not known/done/got those elements which fulfil and thereby

> extinguish those desires! Any doubt?

>

> You have been for eons and ages in fact are busy in fulfilling

> these desires only. In this life also what are you doing at

present

> except making efforts to fulfil these desires ? But have these

> desires extinguished in you ? Are you peaceful? Do you have

nothing

> now to know/do/get? That means what? That means you are no where

> near those elements which fulfil and therby extinguish these three

> basic desires! You made efforts throughout your life, you used

your

> powers consistently to fulfil your desires, but there are still a

> lot of things which you have to know/do/ get. Meaning thereby,

job

> unfulfilled ! No peace! What have you got till date by hankering,

> toiling, running, struggling ? - Sorrows, pains; frustrations,

> dissatisfaction, deficiencies,lack of peace, tension, anxiety,

fear,

> turbulences, inner storms, 'birth' death; disease. And is there an

> end in sight ? Again dying with unfulfilled desires, once again

> taking birth, the cycle continues and continues. What have you

not

> done (attempted) to fulfil the desires, what compromises you have

> not made to get what you desired? And still you are unhappy,

> deficient. Still the same old desires are haunting you. Some thing

> wrong some where- is not it?

>

> Gita and Veda precisely tell you what you should do and what you

> should not do. They tell you what you should know and what is

futile

> even if you know. They tell what you should strive to get and what

> is useless even if you get. How to get those final elements which

> fulfil and thereby extinguish forever these three desires in you?

> What are those elements? How to use your powers? How to become

> peaceful? Who are you? How are you? To get answers, you should

> believe in Gita/ Vedas. It is within your powers. You can believe

if

> you want. " To believe " - is one of the three powers you have

got

> with you. Use that power of belief correctly, in right direction

and

> get in return a liberation from an otherwise endless cycle.. Get

> peaceful. Get real ANANDA ( Bliss).. .

>

> One good enough reason?

>

> Jai Shree Krishna.

>

> Vyas N B

> -

-

> Loving Divine,

> Pranam.

> Beautiful question and beautiful answers. I am going to add

little

> more to it. In my understanding, Gitaji is a very compact book of

> Psychology - science of studying mind and its manifestation in

> personal and social life. If one understands his/her own

> psychology, one is able to help oneself move in the right

direction,

> at the right time by making the right decision. This also helps

one

> to understand behaviour of others in general. Eventually, this

> brings better harmony in life. The following information is from

> Wikipedia. Try to understand this definition and then read

Bhagwat

> Gita, you will understand lot of things yourself why one should

> study it!

>

> 'Psychology is an academic and applied discipline involving the

> analytic and scientific study of mental processes and behavior.

> Psychologists study such phenomena as perception, cognition,

> emotion, personality, behavior, and interpersonal relationships.

> Psychology also refers to the application of such knowledge to

> various spheres of human activity including issues related to

daily

> life—e.g. family, education, and work—and the treatment of mental

> health problems. Psychology attempts to understand the role these

> functions play in social behavior and in social dynamics, while

> incorporating the underlying physiological and neurological

> processes into its conceptions of mental functioning. Psychology

> includes many sub-fields of study and application concerned with

> such areas as human development, sports, health, industry, media,

> law, and transpersonal psychology.'

>

> Even though there are many sub-fields discussed in last line, my

> strong conviction is that one can not change anything without

> bringing a change in one's own mental state and that's what

Krishna

> helped Arjun to realize. After understanding the above

definition,

> when one studies Gitaji, lot more things open up! Just chapter

one

> raises lot of issues like discriminating mentality - yours vs.

mine,

> ego, illusion, racism, depression, fear, desire, attachment,

result

> of being over ambitious, stubbornness, ignorance, disrespect -

> attitude problem, self praise, boasting, distrust, dejection, sin,

> virtues - vices, some blind practices that are still going on in

> today's environment, etc. Age old mind has not changed a bit even

> in today's so call scientific advancements - technological age.

> The key treatments offered are talking to a wise - trustworthy

> friend, having faith - love - devotion, right karma (action),

right

> understanding via knowledge, yoga-meditation, right eating, right

> attitude, regular study/practice of ones own mind and taking right

> action at the right time, etc... Ultimately practicing what

Gitaji

> is suggesting, one can expand his/her mind to cosmic level,

freeing

> one from all of this and reaching to liberation!

>

> Gitaji is showing a way for one to become his/her own scientist,

> conduct the experiments suggested and conclude yourself rather

than

> depending on studies conducted by someone else! Accept the

> challenge and find out what it has to offer!

>

> Hope this helps.

> humble regards,

> always at Thy Holy Feet

>

> Manjula Patel

> -

> Jai Shri Krishna,

>

> Re Saadhak Daniel `s Query- Reply to Q no 2

>

> The dictionary definition of the word 'Science' has been brought

out

> by Vyas Ji while addressing the subject query. The dictionary

might

> have defined the word say a few thousand years ago. However, the

> word Science has been defined by Gitaji for TIMES IMMEMORIAL.

>

> The English word Science is known as 'Vigyan' in Sanskrit, which

is

> an eternal language of Sanatan Dharma. Vi-gyan means special

> knowledge (learned or scientific knowledge, or philosophical

> acquired knowledge).

>

> It is important to note that the word Science has been defined in

> Gitaji at various places ( eg. Gitaji 7/2, 9/1). In fact each

verse

> in Gitaji treasures oceans of sciences, if explored. The question

of

> Gitaji standing the test of qualifying to be scientific does not

> arise at all then.

>

> Gitaji has laid the laws and procedures for getting free from

grief

> (18/66), way of performing duties (2/47), renunciation (18/9),

> ensuring that sins stay away from us (2/38), style of eating food

> (6/16-17), offering anything to God (9/26), donation(17/20),

> equanimity (3/34) and so on and so forth, in precise yet

> comprehensive and logical (so called scientific) ways.

>

> Gitaji is much LARGER than science.

>

> Narayan Narayan

> Rajendra J Bohra

> -

-

> Mr. Keenor has made couple of apt observations. I could not agree

> with him more in:

>

> 1. 'The Gita' is beyond science - one should derive support for

> one's sceintific understanding from Vedanta. NOT vice versa . All

> attempts to bring " sceince " in Gita does not make any sense to me

> either. Of course, Vedanta makes many sweeping observations on

> science as well just like any other faculty of human information

> system to make a point. One should not limit oneself to such

> observations. Then, we would miss the boat altogether.

>

> 2. Bhagvada Gita is not a matter of just acceptance, it would not

> ring a bell for someone like me who spent their life in technology.

> My faith in it, is based on experience - Vedanta is beyond

> acceptance, observation, understanding, learning etc. It is a

matter

> of being THAT. Nothing else. Of course, acceptance, understanding,

> learning etc. are all part of the process ... but yet cannot

> encompass THAT in anyway. The seeker should keep this in mind

> perpetually.

>

> Respects.

>

> Naga Narayana.

>

> Thanks Mike.

> As a child, my grandmother told stories to me. She would ask which

> story, you want for today. And then she would tell same stories

> again with adding more depth into it. After 50 years, I hold

belief

> in those stories that guides my life in matters of human

> sensibilities. Bhagwat Gita is just like that. I miss the grand

> mother for the love, and her stories and care, and it gets

> substitute by the Bhagwat Gita which similarly answers all

> questions, and repeats with more depth.

>

> Bhagwat Gita is about you talking to yourself, and that yourself

is

> absoltely detached and free. Once you start knowing 'that freed

> yourself' more, you living into world become free and detached.

>

> Best regards

> K G

> (Krishna Gopal)

>

> -

--

> , " sadhak_insight "

> <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> >

> > -Shree Hari-

> >

> > A person who I had made acquaintance with under strange

> > circumstances, one day he said, " Mike you should read the

Bhagavad

> > Gita " . He lent me a copy, he knew what it was about. I found

that

> it

> > was amazing, it explained things to me that I had thought about,

> and

> > had experienced, these were things that were almost never dealt

> with

> > in western philosophy or science. How is it possible that this

> book

> > was able to answer question that laid deep within the psyche of a

> > person who had nothing to do with the faith behind it?

> >

> > This was a good few years ago, I am now reading this sacred text

> > slowly now on line, it has authoritative comments, and I am

> > allowing it to take me as far and as deep, that it will.

> >

> > To me 'The Gita' is beyond science. I have long considered that

> > science is constrained by the dogmas within it.

> >

> > From my point of view the Bhagvada Gita is not a matter of just

> > acceptance, it would not ring a bell for someone like me who

spent

> > their life in technology. My faith in it, is based on experience.

> >

> > With respects and Divine love,

> >

> > Mike Keenor

> >

> > --------------------------------

-

> > Shree Hari

> > Ram Ram

> >

> > Dear Daniel, thanks for a very good question!

> > Gita describes four Yogas to achieve the only goal of human life

to

> > realize the inherent divinity in man by uniting with the Supreme.

> > The Yoga of Devotion (Bhakti Yoga) is considered a direct, simple

> > and the best path. To follow this path, starting point is

> acceptance

> > and surrender in exclusive love of God. Even though this path

> starts

> > with acceptance but eventually it leads to Knowledge of the

Supreme

> > in the end. This fact about the path of devotion as a potent

method

> > to realize the goal, is not unique to Gita or Hindu tradition

but

> is

> > true for the most wisdom traditions of the world. The importance

of

> > acceptance is brought out by Swamiji Maharaj time & again in his

> > discourses and has been already captured beautifully by Vyasji's

> > response (#1).

> >

> > In science we go from proof to belief, in devotion we go from

> belief

> > to proof.

> >

> > From the stand point of Yoga of Action (Karma Yoga), we do not

have

> > to just accept what is declared in Gita but we can scientifically

> > verify it first through our own observation and personal

> experience.

> > The spiritual truths remain always unchanged, regardless of

whether

> > we accept them or not. These truths have been experienced and

> > validated by sages and seers over the centuries. For our

> > satisfaction, we too can validate these spiritual truths through

> our

> > own experimentation.

> >

> > Here are few of the verses from Gita on Karma Yoga to illustrate

> how

> > we can apply science to verify the truths in Gita:

> >

> > Gita 2-62/63

> >

> > Shows logically, the sequence of events when person gets angry

and

> > the consequence which follow -

> >

> > " The man dwelling on sense-objects develops attachment for them;

> > from attachment springs up desire, and from desire (unfulfilled)

> > ensures anger. From anger arises delusion; from delusion

confusion

> > of memory, from confusion of memory loss of discrimination

(Budhi);

> > from the loss of discrimination, he falls down from his

> > spiritual goal " .

> >

> > Gita 2-64

> >

> > On what should the mind, weaned through from the senses, be

placed?

> >

> > " But a man of disciplined mind, though moving about amongst the

> > objects of senses under control, free from likes and dislikes,

> > attains tranquility of mind " .

> >

> > Gita 2-71

> >

> > What should the aspirant do so that he may gain access to the

> > perfect state:

> >

> > " He who abandons all desires and acts free from longing, without

> > attachment, egoism, he attains lasting peace " .

> >

> > Gita 2-56

> >

> > Pacification of the mind is explained -

> >

> > " He whose mind is not perturbed by adversity, who does not crave

> for

> > temporary happiness, who is free from fondness, fear and anger is

> > the sage (Muni) of steady wisdom " .

> >

> > Gita 3-36

> >

> > Why does an intelligent man commit sin?

> >

> > Arjuna said: " By what is a man compelled to commit sin, as if

> driven

> > by force, even against his will, O Varsneya (Krishna) " .

> >

> > Gita 3-37

> >

> > The Blessed Lord said: " The desire born of the mode of passion

> > (Rajas), is anger, all devouring and most sinful. Know this to be

> > the enemy here " .

> >

> > Similarly we can verify with our scientific enquiry many verses

in

> > Gita on Jnana Yoga and Yoga of Self Control, before accepting

these

> > spiritual truths in Gita.

> >

> > Another question was about the source of Gita, in my humble

> opinion,

> > that is only an intellectual exercise, more important question is

> > can the principles declared in Gita, when applied in our daily

life

> > help to reach the goal!

> >

> > Humble regards,

> >

> > Madan Kaura

> > ----------------------------

> >

> > , " sadhak_insight "

> > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Hari Om

> > >

> > > Re Saadhak Daniel `s Query- Reply to Q no 2

> > >

> > > At the outset I must clarify that a thing which is subject

matter

> > of

> > > belief/faith/acceptance/trust can also be scientific. It is not

> > > necessary ( as we generally believe) that whatever is subject

> > > matter of belief cant be scientific!

> > >

> > > IS THERE SCIENTIFIC EXPLANATION FOR GITA?

> > >

> > > " Scientific " explanation/method/view ! " Science " ! Before I

deal

> > > with these two terms with reference to Gita/ Vedas , let me

tell

> > you

> > > that there is one more similar word in English language

> > > called " SCIENTISM " ! " Scientism " means as per English

> Dictionary -

> > > " The tendency to reduce all reality and experience to

> mathematical

> > > descriptions of physical and chemical phenomena " !! When

people

> > > reflected this tendency with reference to topics other

> > > than " physical and chemical phenomena " under the garb

> of " Science "

> > > or " Scientific " , the " Saturday Review " Editors got wild and

> they

> > > issued a powerful statement- so powerful that it now finds

place

> > in

> > > Dictionaries of English Language- under " SCIENTISM " . The

> > statement

> > > said – " Those of us who think that Scientific method is

> > applicable

> > > to political problems are apt to be told, rather sharply, that

we

> > > are talking " scientism " . This statement is relevant for the

topic

> > > under reference and applies mutatis mutandis on any subject

> > > including subject matter of belief i. e. on any subject which

is

> > > not related with " physical and chemical phenomena " ! However

my

> > > intention here is not to say that Gita is not scientific. Here

I

> > am

> > > answering partly also Q no 4 of Brother Daniel.

> > >

> > > What is " SCIENCE " ? The dictionary meaning of " science " - (a)

> > > knowledge based on observed facts and tested truths arranged

in

> an

> > > orderly system; (b) a branch of such knowledge dealing with

> > > phenomena of the universe and their laws; © skill based on

> > > training and practice ; (d) SEARCH FOR TRUTH ; (e) systematic,

> > > accurate, exact. The dictionary meaning of " SCIENTIFIC

METHOD " –

> > An

> > > orderly method consisting of identifying a problem , gathering

> all

> > > the pertinent data,,formulating a hypothesis, performing

> > > experiments, interpreting results and drawing conclusions. The

> > > branches of science are Natural sciences, Social sciences,

> Applied

> > > Sciences, Physical sciences, Natural Sciences etc etc. That is

> all

> > > what is called SCIENCE or SCIENTIFIC METHOD/EXPLANATION/VIEW

> What

> > > else it means?

> > >

> > > Gita and Vedas not only fall into each and every yardstick of

the

> > > aforesaid definitions but are far superior to them.

> > >

> > > Everything in Gita is scientific only. There is nothing in

Gita

> > > which can be called illogical, inaccurate or irrational. There

is

> > no

> > > inconsistency in the 700 verses with each other. All the laws,

> > > principles, theories stated therein are proved by the

experience.

> > It

> > > is in perfect sync with theories of Veda, Upanishads and other

> > > eternal scriptures of Hindu Dharma. It explains everything.

> There

> > > are many things for which no where else the explanation is

> > available

> > > but in Gita and allied scriptures.The explanations,

> > interpretations,

> > > concepts, laws, processes enumerated in Gita of the Soul,

> > > equanimity, Yoga, Surrender, God, Jeeva(self), Jagat (universe,

> > > world) , Gunas (attributes), Maya (illusion), Bondage,

> Liberation,

> > > Conscience, Nature (prakrati), Gross/Subtle and causal bodies,

> > types

> > > or variations of Prana ( air operating in body), Duty ,

Desires ,

> > > Mind, Intellect, Ego , Sorrow, Happiness, Karma, Doer, Law of

> > Karma,

> > > Heaven, Hell etc etc cannot be disputed when put on the

> > yardsticks

> > > of a person's direct experience level and logic. They are

exact,

> > > accurate and precise. They are nothing but truthful. The Laws,

> > > Principles or Formulae given in Gita are infallible! There are

> > > people who practiced the principles of Gita and reaped the

fruits

> > > exactly as stated in Gita. The principles given in Gita get

never

> > > outdated- unlike the principles of science., The reasons of

> > > pleasures and pains are perfectly given- you cant argue them

out!

> > > The entire universe and its phenomena is covered in Gita. Not

> only

> > > the present life but the state after death has been covered.

The

> > > methods of eradication of pain from human life given in Gita

are

> > so

> > > accurate that if you practice them there is no chance that you

> can

> > > fail in the same. The principles and practice of Self/ God

> > > Realisation are given to the perfection. Various alternatives

and

> > > perfect processes have been given of the paths leading to

> > > liberation, and to God. ( and for that purpose of the paths

> > leading

> > > to hell and heaven). Laws are explained, the exceptions are

> given.

> > > Just as the scientific formulas operate in day to day life with

> > the

> > > precision, the formulas given in Gita also operate in day to

day

> > > life with precision. Gita is larger than any science. It

> > addresses/

> > > explains those issues which science till today has not been

able

> > to

> > > address. Like in Science, In Gita also the formulas given are

> > > proven-- by your direct experiences. To compare Gita with

> science

> > > is disrespect to Gita. Science is one of the many many ways of

> > > explaining or proving a given scenario and that science is more

> > > useful in terms of material or physical or chemical phenomena.

> > But

> > > Gita extends much beyond what science can ever imagine. The

best

> > > proof is your own experience. No body till date has been able

to

> > > negate or argue out against what is stated in Gita. We all

have

> a

> > > choice always , however, to believe or not. The Yoga process

of

> > > Gita ( control of Prana) and Patanjali Yoga Darshan has been

> > > practiced by the millions of Saints, Sages, Rishis, ordinary

> > people,

> > > Yogis, Saadhaks in the past and now also. None disputed their

> > > results. The Praanayaam explained in Gita is even today

> > practiced

> > > by millions of people across the globe. What more arguments are

> > > needed to prove something to be scientific. You certainly

cannot

> > > satisfy those who indulge in " SCIENTISM " . Because to get

> satisfied

> > > also is a subject matter of belief/acceptance !!!

> > >

> > > Jai Shree Krishna.

> > >

> > > Vyas N B

> > > ------------------------------

-

> > > Dear Sadak,

> > >

> > > With Ref to Daniel quiry.

> > >

> > > In Mathura there is place (Jail) where Krishna was born, HIS

> nanda

> > > Gokul is there, Kans (Kamsa Krishna uncle) kingdom is there.

The

> > > names of persons with whom Krishna dealt is there with there

> > > residential proof. Sri Krishna where HE lived Dwaraka is there

> > > submerged in sea coast.

> > >

> > > Now regards scientific comparision: HE (sri Krishna) said

about-

> > > human body system, food, inhaling process, mental changes due

to

> > > vasanas, how one` s destiny is working scientifically system of

> > > birth and death, purpose of birth, six stages of changes that

all

> > > living beings undergo (in sanskrit word starting from

Parimalathe

> > > (appear) -to- Asthi (death) ), how to reach divinity, six

mental

> > > levels starting from Kaama-Krodha-Madha etc which today science

> > > says mental balance is important for health, HE taught how to

> > > behave with teacher, friend (Kuchela), oponant Duryodhan,

parents

> > > etc. HE also taught complete detachment if one contemplates on

> HIS

> > > life patern. HE could forsee the fate of Jarasand whose fate to

> > die

> > > in the hands of Bheema. HE could know anyone

intellect.Example:

> HE

> > > acted to have headache and said it could be cured by the dust

of

> > HIS

> > > baktha. Narada, HIS 8 wives, and other refused to dust when HE

> > > asked. Then HE said get the dust of Gopies. Later everyone

> relized

> > > their mistakes.

> > >

> > > Faith can move mountains. To day in Kaliyuga everything is

> > doubted.

> > > One doubt is enough, that one will multiply to infinite

> completely

> > > removing peace of mind. These are said in Geetha if one reads

> > > carfully.

> > >

> > > B.Sathyanarayan

> > > ------------------------------

-

> > > Hari Om

> > >

> > > Dear Sri Daniel

> > >

> > > I was intrigued by your query and therefore decided to test

> myself

> > on

> > > the same lines.

> > >

> > > Being a Science student and definitely having a bias towards

> > > Mathematics, I have always sought to reduce any concept or

idea

> to

> > > simple rules.

> > >

> > > I am reminded of a Mathematics term " Axiom " . It means " A self-

> > > evident principle or one that is accepted as true without

proof

> as

> > > the basis for argument; a postulate " .

> > >

> > > Can Gita be reduced to an Axiom. I often wonder !

> > >

> > > St. Augustine said, " Faith is to believe what you do not see;

the

> > > reward of this faith is to see what you believe " .

> > >

> > > The route to achieving the goal as prescribed in Gita is to

> pursue

> > > diligently what is said in Gita, taking it as an Axiom, and at

> > every

> > > stage experiencing the change within.

> > >

> > > Have I experienced any change? Yes.

> > >

> > > I have seen changes in myself with reference to Anger, I have

> seen

> > > the benefits of Acceptance, and am sure several of the Sadhakas

> > > experience the changes within which gives them the confidence

> that

> > > they are in THE PATH.

> > >

> > > Thanks for the query

> > >

> > > Hari Om

> > > Jayaraman

> > > ------------------------------

> > > All these explanations are in a stand point of Intellect

> only.....

> > >

> > > Do you believe that you have Father and Grand Father or Great

> > Grand

> > > Father.. or Great Great Grand Father?

> > >

> > > Do you believe you exist? Then all our Sastras also exist...

> > >

> > > I got a big laugh when our present remote sensing Sonia asked

> > about

> > > Sri Rama's Birth Certificate, what a foolishness.....

> > >

> > > All these are in the argument level. Can you show you have

> > Brains..

> > > I need proof. I need to see the brain physically not through

> image

> > > scanning!!

> > >

> > > May GOD Bless

> > >

> > > Krishna Prasad

> > >

> > > ------------------------------

--

> > > , " sadhak_insight "

> > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Dear Daniel

> > > > There are three words a) information b) knowledge c) truth.

> > > > Information is empirical or a typical case like history, or

> > court

> > > > case with names and places and details of observervation.

Akbar

> > > and

> > > > Ashoka both are rulers but student of history can not

substitue

> > > one

> > > > with another.

> > > >

> > > > Knowledge is not information but a model or

theoretical/logical

> > > > model which is not dependent on a given history or experiment

> > but

> > > is

> > > > always there in some form or the other. Physics is not a

given

> > > > history but ever present (sanaatan, nitya) and f = force, g=

> > > > gravity, v= velocity are symbol of characters which takes

any

> > > names

> > > > and places in value. Physics can thus, predict any

information

> > > > without specific names. This 'physics' which is nitya,

sanaatan

> > is

> > > > thus an example of knowledge.

> > > >

> > > > Satya (truth) is one step beyond the knowledge. It is

universal

> > > > knowledge and therefore known naturally to all f us without

> > > effort,

> > > > and common to all. Because it is common, there cannot exist

> > > > differences in opinon, and thus no conflict. Gandhi therefore

> > > > defined truth in its property of non voilence. In other

words,

> > if

> > > > understanding of Bhagwat Gita makes one contemplative and

> > > > independent, and free from anexiety, conflict then this is

> > Truth.

> > > >

> > > > Science is not truth but a way to truth. This is a know how

of

> > > > already known things. If there is no truth, there can not be

> > > > sciences explaining that. Thus, truth is the aim of all

> > > knowledges.

> > > > It can only be realized but when it comes to explanation, it

> > > becomes

> > > > sciences.

> > > >

> > > > I cannot write how many times in Bhagwat Gita, satya (Truth)

> and

> > > > gyan (Knowledge) are used differently, and accurate

absolutely.

> > > >

> > > > Best regards

> > > > K G

> > > > (Krishna Gopal)

> > > > ----------------------------

--

> -

> > > > Jai Shri Krishna,

> > > >

> > > > Re: Sadhak Daniel's query - Q 1

> > > >

> > > > Vyas Ji has beautifully addressed Sadhak Daniel's query on

> > > > Acceptance.

> > > >

> > > > Acceptance is FAR MORE Superior than learning (knowledge).

> > > Whatever

> > > > one accepts in life, one never forgets, whereas anything

learnt

> > > can

> > > > always be forgotten, partially or completely. If you are

woken

> > up

> > > in

> > > > the middle of the night and asked what is your marital

status,

> > you

> > > > will not need even a second to think before answering this

> > > question

> > > > because you have firmly accepted that you are bachelor,

married

> > or

> > > > widower.

> > > >

> > > > At least in the Indian context, a chaste (Pativrata) woman,

> > > accepts

> > > > her relationship with the person she marries just by the

saying

> > of

> > > > the Priest performing the matrimonial rituals. The

acceptance

> is

> > > > instant and so firm that even after say 50 years of the

death

> of

> > > her

> > > > husband she becomes vigilant whenever anyone takes her

> husband's

> > > > name. She can never forget the acceptance of the man as her

> > > husband.

> > > > A Suhagan (a married woman with her husband alive) does not

see

> > > > herself as 'Widow' even in her dreams - that is the power of

> > > > ACCEPTANCE.

> > > >

> > > > We all will vouch for the fact that many things we learn in

> life

> > > > (knowledge acquired), we tend to forget with time. BUT no one

> > > > forgets whatever one accepts once.

> > > >

> > > > Use of underestimating words such as " simply " is apt at best

to

> > > > learning (knowledge) only. Acceptance is on top at 100 on on

a

> > > scale

> > > > where learning is at 1.

> > > >

> > > > Narayan Narayan

> > > >

> > > > Rajendra J Bohra

> > > >

> > > > ----------------------------

--

> --

> > > > Why we should believe in the Gita or for that matter the

Vedas?

> > > >

> > > > Belief in anything is useless in itself. Yet, belief alone

can

> > let

> > > > anyone start one's journey toward anything including

> > spirituality.

> > > >

> > > > You cannot derive benefit from anything – be it Gita or

Vedas

> or

> > > > cough medicine – unless you have a belief to start with. It

is

> > our

> > > > habit to ignore things unless we have a belief. Therefore,

one

> > > > should have belief in something if one wants to derive

benefits

> > > from

> > > > anything. Belief is the key to the door for any body of

> knowledge

> > > > including Vedanta.

> > > >

> > > > If we make our beleifs our path we won't go anywhere just

like

> a

> > > > blind man following another blind man. Belief cannot reap the

> > > fruits

> > > > from anything unless we adapt to the path we choose.

Threfore,

> > it

> > > is

> > > > what you understand and realize from the scripts that

matters

> for

> > > > our progress. Carrying out anything without understanding is

> even

> > > > worse than not doing it since we could channel our resources

to

> > > what

> > > > helps us. Understanding is the key to tread the path we

choose

> > > > including spiritual practice.

> > > >

> > > > But, even if we understand great meanings out of the

scripts,

> it

> > is

> > > > of no use unless it is adapted in our life. No matter what we

> > > > understand in our thought process, we continue to fidget in

our

> > > > lives contrary to our very understanding unless the knowledge

> > > > perculates to our atomic existence in its subtlety and

clarity.

> > It

> > > > is what we are that matters at any point of time – before the

> > path

> > > > wherein no belief has dawned, in the path wherein the belief

> has

> > > > kicked off the process, and all along the path wherein the

> > > knowledge

> > > > trickles into our living, in its purity. After all what we

> would

> > be

> > > > matters no matter we took guidance from an Upanishad or from

a

> > Veda

> > > > or from The Gita or from any other scriptures or from The

Life

> as

> > > > such.

> > > >

> > > > The idea is to be at peace. The litmus test for our state in

> the

> > > > path is the happiness. Anything that deviates us from our

> natural

> > > > state of peace and happiness is reveals the play of our

> ignorance

> > > > and alerts us to explore and fix the same at once. To jump

> start

> > > > ourselves in such a process we should believe in Vedas. To

keep

> > in

> > > > pace with the process, we should understand the Vedas. To be

> one

> > > with

> > > > the process, we should be the Vedas.

> > > >

> > > > Veda means Knowledge. Knowledge means Bliss. Bliss is The

> Truth.

> > We

> > > > should be grateful to the Faith as it put us in the path of

> > > > Knowledge. We should be grateful to the Knowledge as it

marches

> > us

> > > > toward the Bliss. We should be grateful to the Bliss as it

> keeps

> > us

> > > > with the Truth. All are excellent as far as they are

correctly

> > > > placed and practiced.

> > > >

> > > > Respects.

> > > >

> > > > Naga Narayana.

> > > >

> > > > ----------------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > --

> > > >

> > > > Jai hree Krishna Pryia Bhandus

> > > >

> > > > Based on my understanding, Gita/Vedas are the origins of

> > LANGUAGE,

> > > > MATHS AND SCIENCE. Here is an example of Math and the number

> > ZERO.

> > > > Origins from SANYAS into Arabic SIFER to Latin CIFER and

> english

> > > > ZERO.

> > > >

> > > > As I understand, the concept of Nothingness came from Vedic

> > > thought

> > > > as well. SANATAN DHARMA represents Eternal and ultimate

TRUTH.

> > > > These Eternal Truths existed even before creation, just like

> > > gravity

> > > > existed even before Newton labeled it as gravity, when he

> > observed

> > > > the apple falling from a tree.

> > > >

> > > > Jai Hind

> > > > Jayesh A Patel

> > > > London

> > > >

> > > > , " sadhak_insight "

> > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > Hari Om

> > > > >

> > > > > Re Saadhak Daniel's Queries - Reply to Question No 1

> > > > >

> > > > > There are too many queries emanating in reality. First

let

> > me

> > > > > summarise them. Then a separate reply shall be given for

each

> > > > query.

> > > > > In the end we shall conclude- so that time and space

> > > requirements

> > > > of

> > > > > Moderator also remain complied with.

> > > > >

> > > > > Q 1 Is Gita simply a matter of Acceptance?

> > > > >

> > > > > Q 2 Is there scientific explanation ( other than

> acceptance) ?

> > > > >

> > > > > Q 3 Why we should believe in the Gita or for that purpose

> > the

> > > > > Vedas?

> > > > >

> > > > > Q 4 How do you explain to some one that whatever is

> explained

> > > in

> > > > > Gita is truthful ?

> > > > >

> > > > > Q 5 How do we know the real source of Gita?

> > > > >

> > > > > Q 6 Is there anything in the Gita that provides

scientific

> > > view /

> > > > > explanation or anything that addresses the Origin of Vedas/

> > Gita?

> > > > >

> > > > > Now these are the six questions, which Brother Daniel has

> > asked,

> > > > at

> > > > > the same time acknowledging that he has been studying Gita

> and

> > > > > believes that everything stated therein is truth. He wants

> now

> > > to

> > > > > make others believe that.

> > > > >

> > > > > In this posting first I will take Q no 1. Every day I shall

> > > > address

> > > > > one question and in the end shall conclude.

> > > > >

> > > > > IS GITA SIMPLY A MATTER OF ACCEPTANCE?

> > > > >

> > > > > Everything in this world basically is a matter of

acceptance

> > > only.

> > > > > Why to single out Gita? Take your birth for example. Can

you

> > say

> > > > > based on the " knowledge " - your own personal knowledge -as

to

> > > who

> > > > is

> > > > > your father? You don't remember your birth. Whoever gave

you

> > > love

> > > > > and affection in the beginning was your mother and to

> > whosoever

> > > > she

> > > > > pointed out was your father! How will you prove that Mr So

> and

> > > So

> > > > is

> > > > > your father ? THERE IS NO WAY ANYBODY CAN PROVE BASED ON

HIS

> > > > > KNOWLEDGE THAT HE IS SON OF MR SO AND SO

> > > > >

> > > > > I repeat no way! This is a fact. Anybody can raise a

separate

> > > > query

> > > > > on this. You have to accept only in the beginning. Later on

> > the

> > > > > knowledge comes. It is your acceptance level which opens

the

> > > door

> > > > of

> > > > > knowledge in life. When you accept that you are son of so

and

> > > so,

> > > > > that acceptance keeps strengthening in you and when you

> become

> > > > adult

> > > > > or old , your talking, walking styles, your physique or

> > > mannerism

> > > > > start resembling to your father ! First you have to

accept.

> > You

> > > > > accept first that alphabet A comes before alphabet B,

later

> on

> > > you

> > > > > may become a Professor of English language. You have to

> accept

> > > > first

> > > > > that one plus one is two- later on you can get a

Doctorate

> in

> > > > > mathematics! Why one plus one is 2 and not 3? Why do you

> > > pronounce

> > > > A

> > > > > as A and not as B? You accepted first. Later on you became

> > > > > knowledgeable! Just as you accepted someone to be your

> father,

> > > you

> > > > > have to first accept God also. Later on all explanations

and

> > > > logics

> > > > > will flow. You cant establish by knowledge the identity of

> > your

> > > > own

> > > > > father, where is the question then of establishing

> > > > > the eternal father , the God? Same is for Gita also which

is

> > the

> > > > > voice of that God only- whose identity you cant establish

> > based

> > > on

> > > > > your knowledge. God is beyond knowledge. God or Gita or our

> > > > fathers

> > > > > all are matter of belief and acceptance. Yes Gita is a

> matter

> > > of

> > > > > acceptance! What is wrong with that? If you start making a

> > list-

> > > > you

> > > > > will find uncountable things in life which you accepted

> first.

> > > We

> > > > > shall deal with it later on with specific reference.

> > > > >

> > > > > Jai Shree Krishna

> > > > >

> > > > > Vyas N B

> > > > >

> > > > > --------------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > --

> > > > > Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

> > > > >

> > > > > Very good question, " One has studied Gita for some time and

> > > > believes

> > > > > that it has absolute truth, but how do you explain to

someone

> > > else

> > > > > logically that Gita has the truth? "

> > > > >

> > > > > The way I understand is that belief in truth has a place in

> > > > > organized religions. However the truth as taught in Gita or

> > Veda

> > > > or

> > > > > other such scriptures is to be experienced. The teaching is

> > > about

> > > > > the reality of " I " , the world, and God, and above all how

> they

> > > are

> > > > > related to each other. Simply belief in the truth will not

> > work

> > > in

> > > > > this case as it is not organized around God, the truth.

Gita

> > is

> > > > not

> > > > > dogmatic. Many possibilities are explained rather than

> > preached

> > > > > specific. When one's belief is replaced with knowing

> > > > experientially,

> > > > > one knows how to explain to others!

> > > > >

> > > > > Second difficulty is that the experience of God is unlike

all

> > > > other

> > > > > experiences which are all objective knowledge through sense

> > > > organs,

> > > > > mind and intellect. All such experiences are limited in

> scope.

> > > God

> > > > > is that Knowingness itself through which everything else is

> > > known

> > > > to

> > > > > exist in the first place and that which cannot be

> objectified,

> > > > When

> > > > > objectified, God becomes limited object of our belief.

Belief

> > in

> > > > God

> > > > > takes one up to a certain point, never to final salvation..

> > > > >

> > > > > Lord Krishna is speaking unspeakable only because we need

to

> > > > > communicate to ohers with a full knowledge that it is only

a

> > > > pointer

> > > > > to truth. One has to walk accordingly.

> > > > >

> > > > > Such being the case, my suggestion would be to explain

these

> > > above

> > > > > points first. Then one has to study with open mind, asking

> > > > > questions, doubting, and not resting until answers become

> > > > > convictions and resonate within oneself. True

Understanding

> of

> > > > > verses culminate into bursts of joy and satisfaction. This

is

> > a

> > > > test

> > > > > of experience of truth. In this regard help of like minded

> > > > friends,

> > > > > realized teacher, and platform such as this group is highly

> > > > > recommended. The one to whom we want to explain has to be

> > > > interested

> > > > > in truth and approach us to have a meaningful explanation.

> > > > >

> > > > > Namaskars...Pratap

> > > > > (Pratap Bhatt)

> > > > >

> > > > > --------------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > --

> > > > > Dear seeker of permanent truths,

> > > > >

> > > > > The physical, subtle and causal Truths are found by two

> > methods

> > > > viz.

> > > > > either Inductive or Deductive. Inductive methods are

normally

> > > > > applied in physical sciences and scientific findings go on

> > > > changing.

> > > > > Newtonian Physics of inert matter has vastly changed as

> matter

> > > is

> > > > > now having unsuspected vitality. Even steel feels fatigue.

> > > Science

> > > > > once said Earth is static and Sun is moving, now Sceince

has

> > > > > accepted Sun is stationary and earth is moving. Biology is

> > > > changing

> > > > > every day.

> > > > >

> > > > > The permanent truths found through deductive methods known

to

> > > > human

> > > > > soul (apriori knowledge) contained in Vedas, Bhagavd Gita

and

> > > > > Upanishads have been challenged, criticised and even people

> > like

> > > > > great materialists Charvakas said it was going back to the

> > > ancient

> > > > > period. BUT till date not proved wrong even by the great

> > > > scientists

> > > > > of any age-past and present. On the contrary even Newton,

> > > Einstein

> > > > > and many others confirrmed about the existence of Supreme

> > > Reality.

> > > > > Einstein even put a board outside his laboratory " Thou art

> > > That " .

> > > > > and said God does not play dice.

> > > > >

> > > > > Deductive method is based on Metaphysics (beyond

> > Physics/matter)

> > > > > which Bhagavd Gita says is the supreme science. The rsis

and

> > > > munnies

> > > > > (metaphysicists and wandering sages)of yore got these

> > permanent

> > > > > truths through their omniscient souls. Vedic truths in

regard

> > to

> > > > > matter are now being proved even in the laboratory of

> > scientists

> > > > > relating to atom, sub atomic particles, physical sciences.

> But

> > > > > truths relating to subtle matters like subtle divine

Nature,

> > > > > location of subtle instruments in human body like Vivek

> (power

> > > of

> > > > > discernment, Ego, Buddhi (intellect), manas (inward looking

> > > mind),

> > > > > physical scientist can never find. They only know about

> > > maaterial

> > > > > instruments in the human body like senses, sense organs

etc.

> > > > >

> > > > > If truths contained in Vedas and Bhagavad Gita are to be

> > > accepted

> > > > on

> > > > > blind faith, it is better not to accept and one should

> > continue

> > > > > facing material happiness or sorrows in this vast turbulent

> > sea

> > > of

> > > > > matter. But one who is convinced of the much higher

deductive

> > > > > methods of finding truths, will accept Bhagavad Gita and

> Vedas

> > > as

> > > > > Shruti - revealed through the human soul which is subtle

> > > particle

> > > > of

> > > > > the Supreme Soul (Parmatma).

> > > > > with kind regards,

> > > > >

> > > > > P.K.Sabhlok

> > > > >

> > > > > --------------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > --

> > > > -

> > > > > Dear TKach.

> > > > >

> > > > > I think the Moderator would/may respond to this one query.

> > > Staying

> > > > > with the group's exchanges so far, would have already shed

> > some

> > > > > light on these Truths.

> > > > >

> > > > > To me as a sadhak; A real " believer's " is he whose

conviction

> > is

> > > > > fully realised and becomes one with it. It is not about

> blind

> > > > > faith.

> > > > >

> > > > > Even the scientist person like Newton in a question of him

> > being

> > > > the

> > > > > greatest person, came out stating that " people say I know

so

> > so

> > > > > much; but in fact my knowledge is just like an atom of

dust

> at

> > > the

> > > > > sea-shore...while I have so much to gain the

knowledge ... " .

> > The

> > > > > Science or seeking scientific reasons being only or

> > > > > physics or a form and being limited - cannot in anyway

define

> > > the

> > > > > omni-present and all-prevading GOD.

> > > > >

> > > > > This subject is of HEART before the BRAIN.

> > > > >

> > > > > Best Regards

> > > > >

> > > > > Kishin Chandiramani

> > > > >

> > > > > --------------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > --

> > > > --

> > > > > Dear Sadak,

> > > > >

> > > > > Geetha starts, " EITHI UPANATHSHU " . That means Geetha is

juice

> > of

> > > > > Upanashids/Vedas.

> > > > >

> > > > > From my personal view the Geetha is Do`s and Dont`s. Rules

> > laid

> > > to

> > > > > guide one from human to divinity. Once human level raises

to

> > > > > divinity, he becomes realized in conscience level.

> > > > >

> > > > > If one believes Geetha and strictly PRACTICES what Krishna

> > says,

> > > > > that person becomes " Gunaa Theethan " , as Bagavan himself

> said.

> > > The

> > > > > question any one of you can ask yourself, " Am I practicing

> > basic

> > > > > princlples of Geetha, speaking truth (alignment of thought,

> > word

> > > > and

> > > > > deed at the conscience level), seeing Bagavan (God

> > Consciousness)

> > > > in

> > > > > all living creatures, getting up early in morning and

atleast

> > > > > thinking of Bagavan, controling senses - tongue in eating

> > > (Bagavan

> > > > > said in Geetha how Gunas affect a person due to food) and

in

> > > > talking

> > > > > (Not causing the least pain by words spoken), Bagavan

> > > > says, " Indriya

> > > > > (Organs of actions) control. Do we do this?

> > > > >

> > > > > After this comes Bagavan saying, " Kama yeshu- Krodha yeshu

> > etc " .

> > > > > From desire comes anger, from anger comes greed etc.

Simply

> > by

> > > > > understanding these words through vivek (discriminative

> > faculty)

> > > > one

> > > > > can become calms and experience Ananda (it is bliss, with

no

> > > > > opposite, it is not happiness). The opposity of Happiness

is

> > > > > sorrow, such as health and sickess, so on. But for Ananda

> > there

> > > is

> > > > > no opposite. Some people just by reading Bagavath Geetha

feel

> > > > happy,

> > > > > then what to speak of application in one's life; Imagine

the

> > > glory.

> > > > >

> > > > > Coming to scientific explanation, Geetha says, " Prana,

Samana

> > > etc "

> > > > 5

> > > > > pranas, which scientist accepts 5 elements of air we

breath.

> > > Over

> > > > > night kept food forments and produces certain chemical

change

> > > next

> > > > > day says Geetha. Scientist say food kept in store for a

night

> > > and

> > > > > used next day causes surge in immune system. But Geetha has

> > gone

> > > > > much deeper than scientist by says how our brain is

affected.

> > > > >

> > > > > There is everything in Geetha for the whole creation. But

one

> > > does

> > > > > not make the effort to read and deeply contemplate on

hidden

> > > > truths.

> > > > >

> > > > > Now coming to Sri Krishna: HE had 108 Sidhis, able to lift

> > > > mountain,

> > > > > kill demons, bring back the dead son of HIS Guru Sandipan`s

> > dead

> > > > son

> > > > > to life. HIS teaching gives more insight about human way of

> > > living

> > > > > that could elevate to Moksha. In HIS life time were there

any

> > > > > mistakes? HE is therefore believed by saints as " Jagath

> GURU " .

> > > > >

> > > > > Sri Krishna says, that one needs to under go several birth

to

> > > > start

> > > > > to say " Om Namo Narayanaya " . So the ones who do not

believe

> in

> > > HIM

> > > > > is our brothers/sisters are on the way striving to reach

that

> > > > level.

> > > > > Therefore there should be no dislike/hatred to be shown to

> any

> > > > > persons, as Sri Krishna says, " See ME in all creation " . One

> > may

> > > > > believe in Geetha but if one should have even in conscience

> > > level

> > > > a

> > > > > small dislike on the person who disbelieves Sri Krishna/

> > Geetha,

> > > > > then such a person is not true Visnavite.

> > > > >

> > > > > B.Sathyanarayan

> > > > > --------------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > -

> > > > >

> > > > > , " sadhak_insight "

> > > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Haribol!!

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Can anyone explain why we should believe in the Gita or

for

> > > that

> > > > > > matter the Vedas?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I've been studying Bhagavad Gita for some time, and I

> > believe

> > > > > everything

> > > > > > that is there is the absolute truth, but how do you

explain

> > to

> > > > > someone

> > > > > > else that this is the truth? It is not enough to say " it

> > comes

> > > > from

> > > > > > Krsna " " just accept Krsna " . It has to be a more

scientific

> > and

> > > > > thorough

> > > > > > explanation, do you know what I mean?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I'd like to be able to explain to someone why this is the

> > > truth,

> > > > > how do

> > > > > > we know the real source !

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Is there anything in the Gita that provides scientific

> view /

> > > > > > explanation or anything that addresses the Origin of the

> > > Vedas /

> > > > > Gita ?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Hare Krsna!! Thanks.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Daniel Tkach

> > > > > >

> > > > > > FROM THE MODERATOR

> > > > > >

> > > > > > GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES:

> > > > > > The Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify

their

> > > doubts

> > > > > > related to Gitaji shlokas. To ensure that both the

> questions

> > > and

> > > > > the

> > > > > > responses are focused, pointed and brief, the guidelines

> for

> > > > Gita-

> > > > > Talk

> > > > > > discussions are being modified and are being sent to you.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The following are the guidelines for Gita-Talk

discussions.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > GUIDELINES FOR POSTING A QUESTION:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > 1. The group is focused on the Holy Gitaji and clarifying

> > any

> > > > > doubts,

> > > > > > therefore only questions that pertain to Gitaji will be

> > posted

> > > > in

> > > > > the

> > > > > > future.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > 2. Please restrict the number of questions asked to only

> one

> > > at

> > > > a

> > > > > time.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > 3. Making reference of Gitaji shloka is compulsory - at

> > least

> > > > once

> > > > > in

> > > > > > the question.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > 4. Please be specific with the question, relating the

> > practical

> > > > > > difficulties being faced by the Sadhak. Specifics around,

> > > where

> > > > is

> > > > > the

> > > > > > sadhak facing obstacles in his spiritual journey, in the

> > > > teachings

> > > > > of

> > > > > > Geetaji, in principles laid down by Swamiji or other

> > Mahatamas

> > > > are

> > > > > > highly recommended to be included.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > 5. General questions will not be considered for future

> > posting.

> > > > > > e.g. " suicide " " solving world hunger " etc.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > GUIDELINES FOR POSTING A RESPONSE:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > 1. The group is focused on the Holy Gitaji, therefore,

only

> > > > > responses

> > > > > > which further clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will

be

> > > > posted.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > 2. Making reference of Gitaji shloka is highly

encouraged -

> > at

> > > > > least

> > > > > > once in the response. Wherever possible, please quote

> > Gitaji

> > > or

> > > > > other

> > > > > > scriptures to substantiate your response.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > 3. Please be as concise and to the point as possible,

> > > respecting

> > > > > > sadhaka's time. Under no circustance the answer should

> > exceed

> > > > say

> > > > > one

> > > > > > page at the most (500 words or so).

> > > > > >

> > > > > > 4. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs

etc.

> to

> > > the

> > > > > > extent that they further help in understanding the Gita

> > shlokas

> > > > > >

> > > > > > 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or

other

> > > > > > organizations.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > 7. Complete reproduction of texts from any book is

strongly

> > > > > > discouraged, however references may be made of the book

or

> > > > author

> > > > > (but

> > > > > > not links to other sites).

> > > > > >

> > > > > > 8. Kindly do not include your personal information such

as

> > > phone

> > > > > > number, address etc.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > 9. Please do not address the response to a particular

> > > individual

> > > > > since

> > > > > > the message is going to the entire group.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > 10. Due to the large readership, only those responses

will

> > be

> > > > > posted

> > > > > > which are in line with the general philosophy of taking

> > Shrimad

> > > > > > Bhagavad Gita as the reference.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > 11. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting,

if

> > > > > content is

> > > > > > unclear for distribution or not directly related to the

> > > question

> > > > > being

> > > > > > asked.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > 12. Please respond taking into consideration the novices,

> > > youth,

> > > > > > westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use

of

> > > only

> > > > > > Sanskrit words, rather provide the English word with

> Sanskrit

> > > > > > bracketed wherever possible.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > MODERATOR

> > > > > > Ram Ram

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

June 27, 2008

Loving Divine,

Pranam.

While reading Gitaji, Arjun being a case study object, I also

understood the following evolution. I thought it might b beneficial:

* Arjun is extrovert when he asks Lord to take his chariot in the

middle to see who all have gathered here to fight (BG 1:21). He's

looking at others & not towards himself (BG 1:26-27).

Like Arjun we are also extrovert when we first study the Bhagwat

Gita. We notice external / gross world - history, politics,

warfare, society, etc. No 1 has taught us to look within, so we take

its literal meaning & may find it being illogical, impractical, not

relevant to me or present age of so called modern science. We may

reject it saying it's not helpful to mankind, Gitaji is just written

by primitive man for primitive community. But it isn't true! In

general, majority of us are extoverts in our behavior, we like to

find faults in others, blame others but we rarely look within!

* When we continue studying /implementing (swaadhyaay) Gitaji as

Lord said, it starts taking us in to deeper level. Arjun wants to

see who all have gathered here to fight. He's looking at others, all

around him, but excludes himself. His eyes, ears, etc. are pointed

outwards - 1 finger pointing at others but forgot that three are

pointing at him. Arjun isn't facing the present moment, he's in his

illusory world so he gives all kinds of reasons for why he shouldn't

fight (BG 1:40-45). Lord also tells him that when you all overcome

these illusion/delusion/imagination, you will attain the supreme

peace (BG 2:53). Arjun has been a war hero/great archer, blessed

with powerful war weapons by gods; so the issue isn't at gross

level, it is at the subtle level, mental problem ! Slowly while

talking to his friend Krishna, after giving all extroverted reasons,

he comes to realize his own problem. Now he turns within & says

that I am confused, I am your disciple, please guide me. So from

rest of the army, he comes to himself, from many to one, from others

to I, extrovert to introvert, to the center of the problem. He

understands his mental process & accepts that there's a problem.

He's now into the field of psychology. Krishna challenges his

mental process by presenting various logic including what others

will say about him & would he be able to live withit (BG 2:31-36)?

Eventually, Arjun develops little better understanding & he agrees

to study his mind at deeper level with Krishna's help. He asks

Krishna that mind is like restless wind, how can I control (BG

6:34)? Lord helps him analyze various behavior patterns based on

three gunas (BG Chpt 17). But, Lord's teaching is focused on taking

Arjun beyond 3 gunas - satva, rajas, tamas (BG 2:45). Upon asking,

Lord continues to teach various aspects of mind, what affects it,

how it behaves in cetain situations, & how he can control it.

Eventually, Arjun becomes ready to go beyond mind.

Initially, we are extroverts, slowly we start looking within &

understand that the battle field is nothing but our own mental war

between good-bad qualities, our stuggle to overcome our bad habits.

We analyze our behaviour & apply the techniques shown by the Lord.

Now we want to go beyond mind.

* Once we understand the workings of the mind, like Arjun, we are

ready to understand more subtle aspects. E.g., at grosser level,

Lord talks about action (karma), devotion (bhakti) & knowledge

(gyaan). The working of our senses, seen as eyes, seeing, ears

hearing and mouth talking, tongue tasting and skin feeling, nose

smelling, etc, now gets converted into the working of earth, water,

fire, air and space made them work the way they did -

nature /prakriti is responsible for their working (BG 3:27). Later,

at further deeper level we realize that it is all the play of three

cosmic elements - light, sound & vibration. Those who are looking

for scientific proof may study science & can confirm this. But

something greater exist under whose control these three elements are

working! Lord talks about Him being all pervading pranav / Om

sound, feeling aliveness of His creation due to its vibration, &

light that lits Sun, moon, stars & gives sight to our eyes, etc. At

deeper level, studying these three aspects within us we understand

that the eyes we thought are seeing is not true, the ears that hear

and mouth that creates sound is not the case, the skin that feels is

no longer true! There has to be the greater force working behind

all!

* In Vibhutiyoga (Chpt 10), Lord really prepares Arjun to go beyond

His creation. And in Vishwarupdarshanyoga (Chpt 11) Lord shows Him

His cosmic form. We've to use some words, like form, to communicate

as there's no phyiscal body/thing existing controlling this

universe. It is the subtlest of all, in Vedas/Upanishads/Gitaji the

word used to describe IT is Brahman, in English we translate IT as

awareness or consciousness or cosmic mind but Brahman carries more

subtle meaning than these English words. Arjun transcends his own

mind & perceives the cosmic mind.

I believe, we too can eventually transcend our mind & reach the

cosmic mind if we continue to implement Lord's teachings in our

life. It doesn't help us looking at others - who is doing what,

rather studying our own self & correcting our mistakes sure will

help us bring that change. So Gitaji can take one from extrovert

attitude to introvert, from individual mind to cosmic consciousness,

& transand beyond mind, which science has yet to come up with.

Three parts of atoms - netron, proton, electorn, described by

science, I insist to those who want scientific proof, to study their

characteristics & I am sure people will conclude that three parts

are nothing but the three lower gunas - sattve, tamas & rajas,

described by Lord. And Lord is saying He is beyond them!

Lord also says that when one reaches this highest state/liberation,

one is not bound by any samskaras. To this person, the scriptural

books carry no meaning as books are also limiting in their words

describing infinite Brahman! Ultimatly, one must transcend these

scriptures also as God / The Truth / Conciousness / Cosmic Soul,

whatever you want to call it, is beyond books (BG 2:46)! In

otherwords, talking, reading, implementing/acting etc. are limiting

the existance of God but until one realizes it, one must continue to

practice. Lord continues to say that after realizing it, one must

also help others, who are willing, to transcend their mind (BG 18:67-

71).

Thanks to all who contributed to the questions asked by Danielji, I

really enjoyed them. Thanks to moderatorji also for facilitating it.

Hope this adds some value.

humble regards

always at Thy Holy Feet

Manjula Patel

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

This verse 2:12(none of us were never non-existent....) is very

essence of Gita along with 2:16 (That which IS, never ceases to be

and that which is NOT, never comes into Being and the seers know

this Truth).

The Lord has pointed to our true identity which has to be other than

body-mind-intellect-ego and things we know. Everything known through

mind is perishable so we cannot be those. We have to be The One

knower though unknowable by our own instrument! What a Divine

Mystery! But the good news is we can realize it.

The reality of the world including all of us sentients and

insentients lies in its ever Beingness in whatever names and forms

they may appear, in whatver times and places they appear. Names-

forms are individual existences of ONE Absolute Existence just as

waves are constantly arising and broken down again and again but

water(Ocean) cannot be non-existent. Reality of each wave is 100%

Ocean(one touches Ocean when one touches waves). Thus Ocean has

Being while waves have existences relative to Ocean.

Similarly Lord says we all as that Absolute Being like an Ocean,

were always here(or everywhere, and nowhere, in otherword not

located in space). However we continue to appear and disappear as

separate body-minds separated only by a fabric of space and time

(maya)! It is easy to see waves-ocean analogy here, but the Being

that " we are " cannot be seen or captured by mind, our only

instrument of cognition, seems to be our difficulty.

Nevertheless That Being is our experience right now as

Consciousness. Aren't we conscious of our being? We cannot show /

produce an evidence of our being as some thing perceived by mind

like things of the world, but we intuitively know we ARE and hence

it is Self-Evident Self. We just know we ARE and it is very unique

Experience unlike all other experiences and also our the most

CERTAIN Experience by which we can validate all other fleeting

experiences! This Experience is the Subject Knowing Itself by Itself

for Itself (Apperception), which is SUBJECTIVITY IN ITSELF! It is

not Subject relative to objects, it is the total absence of all

objectivity!

Let us realize that through the study of Gita by all means

indicated at our disposals!

Namaskars.

Pratap Bhatt

-------------------------------

We are few of the lucky ones out of millions to be able to get

exposed to the divine Gita and taste its nectar. The Holy Gita came

from the divine lips of The God - Lord Krishna Himself. No wonder

Gita speaks to every human - whether uneducated or well-educated,

and provides solace. I am sure that one will be able to find

answers, which are beyond the scope of science, and comes closer to

divinity. A world of Gita will be a world glowing with divine

happiness.

Hare Ram Hare Krishna

SRIKANTH MOHAN KETHU

--------------------------------

Science and belief are 2 different things, please read 'The God

Delusion' to clarify this point.

We first need to ask yourself why we or anyone needs to believe in

anything?

Belief is a statement of unsurity, e.g. I believe my name is ....

states that I don't really know, or am unsure. Further when we are

unsure we ask others, and if we trust them enough to follow their

advice we need to have faith in that person. So basically if you

say I believe in krishna etc you are saying you are unsure.

And when religious persons get together to share their beliefs they

are basically sharing their uncertainties.

Hinduism is a science as it has a rationale and methodology. It is

investigative in nature e.g. the 1st sutra of 'vedant sutra' as we

all know, states, 'and now an investigation into the nature of

bramhan!' and not 'you must believe to be saved, ...' baloney we

commonly find in religions. Similarly yoga sutras are involved in

investigation into the nature of mind, cognition, consciousness etc

The language of eternal truths is totally different to that of

religions. Get a copy of Yoga Sutras and note and list the type of

vocabulary used.

E.g. 'Yoga is the removal of modification of consciousness, so we

can perceive things in their true state' is a clear statement of the

aims and objectives and rational.

Words such as cognition, perception, deduction, inference, mind,

conciousness, self, ego, substance, nature, attributes,

discrimination etc show the form of ideas, thinking being followed

here,

e.g. Because name and effect follow from perception - kanada sutras

II-19

The language used in Hindu scriptures is akin to philosophy.

Take a look at 'The Tao of Physics by Fritzjof Capra'

Schrodinger said 'My Whole philosophy of life is based upon Vedanta'

When you stop believing is when you truly know, conversely when you

know , you don't need to believe, you dont have to explain to anyone

and you must not be arrogant in thinking you have something superior.

Learn to meditate, this is Hinduism's greatest gift to the world.

Ravi Bakhshi

, " sadhak_insight "

<sadhak_insight wrote:

>

> Hari Om

>

> Re Saadhak Daniel's Queries – Reply to Q no 4

>

> HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN TO SOMEONE THAT WHATEVER IS EXPLAINED IN GITA

IS

> TRUTHFUL ?

>

> At the outset, you must ensure that your making efforts to

convince

> others do not lead to your incurring a " sin " within the meaning of

> Gita 18 : 67 !

>

> In Gita 18 : 67 - Lord Krishna forbids Arjuna, to unfold the

> supreme secret gospel, the secret of all the other secrets, as

> mentioned in the preceding verse - 18:66 - to those who are

> undeserving. Lord said - " This is never to be mentioned by you, to

> anyone who does not perform any austerities, nor has any devotion,

> nor who is unwilling to hear, nor he who finds fault with Me. " !

>

> Once you have ensured that based on these four criteria, the

person

> is found to be deserving, you can make efforts to explain to him.

> Your such efforts then will fall into the scope of Gita 18 : 68

> which says - " He who, with supreme devotion to Me teaches this

> supreme secret to My devotees, shall doubtless, come to Me alone.

> There is no doubt about it " . In the next verse 18:69 He says-

" There

> is, none among men who does more loving service to Me than he: nor

> shall there be, another on earth, dearer to Me than him " These 2

> verses e.g. 18: 68 and 18:69 as well as 18:67 are with reference

to

> 18 : 66 only.

>

> Thereafter God says in 18:70 – " And, he who contemplates this

sacred

> dialogue of ours, he shall be worshipping Me, through the

sacrifice

> (yajna) of knowledge (wisdom) - such is my conviction " ! Verse

> 18:70 is with reference to Gita as a whole.

>

> You yourself stated that you are studying Gita and you believe

that

> whatever is stated there in is truth. Find out the reasons of your

> belief and your conviction and use them to convince others. You

must

> have got enough clues from material shared so far about this

sacred

> text. Many learned Saadhaks have participated in this discussion

so

> far. From each participation you can draw gems. Have belief. Have

> courage and go ahead fearlessly and perform " Jnana Yajna "

> (Selflessly sharing the Divine Knowledge and Wisdom " .

>

> Here I must state that generally there is no benefit in insisting

> for anything too much. Basically we must understand that all are

> children of God, irrespective of their beliefs/present

> status/willingness and convictions. There are systems and laws

> already prevailing in the world – Laws of Mother Nature – that are

> ceaselessly focused to attract and magnetically pull all of us

> towards the truth. We can only become humble mediums under Gita

> 18:70, if we are fully confident and fully clear about what we are

> talking.. Then it becomes immaterial whether we have been

successful

> in our endeavour or not. You cannot satisfy any body on this earth

> if he does not want to get satisfied. To get convinced is a matter

> of acceptance. As I told earlier,there are systems and laws of

> Mother Nature already operating. You must also respect those laws

of

> Mother Nature. Ultimately, a person gets attracted to religion

only

> when there is something " fiercely burning inside him " – to quote

> Brother Mike Keenoor who spoke from his soul really, while

replying

> to another question posed in this group . Notice also Brother

Mike's

> reply to your query yesterday. He said in his opening remarks ---

> " A person who I had made acquaintance with under strange

> circumstances , one day he said …………. " . Now what these types

> of " strange circumstances " indicate? They indicate that laws of

> Mother Nature are operating in the world consistently to draw all

> of us towards the truth, towards the reality, towards the God.

> Everything which happens in our lives – if we care to analyse-

will

> invariably indicate to us that such laws are ceaselessly

operating.

>

> Hence we can afford to be rather careful and patient in our

> endeavours. You must appreciate that real curiosity, is not

aroused

> in any man so long a man does not get disenchanted with mundane

> affairs, and does not become dispassionate. When he becomes

> restless, in the mundane maze, to find out the way, he has a heart

> to heart talk with a person, from whom he expects right guidance.

> When a cow feeds a calf with her milk, the more hungry the calf

is,

> with more force he pulls the udders and the entire milk of the cow

> comes gushing to the mother cow's udders, from other areas.

>

> We should however know that in today's world, more often than not,

> our over insistence may prove counter productive also

particularly,

> if we ourselves are not fully convinced or certain about anything

> and then we may be doing a disservice and may be achieving an

> opposite result. That we must never do. Truth has its own power.

> Water makes it's own way. If we are solid in our convictions and

> faith and if the other is willing – then there is nothing wrong in

> doing him this service. We will then please our father. We will

then

> become the dearest to the God - Gita 18:69.

>

> Jai Shree Krishna

>

> Vyas N B

> -----------------------------Dear

> Sadhaks,

>

> Mr.Daniel req: Scientific findings in Geetha.

>

> Atom was said indivisable. Later said protron, nutron,electron.

> Again science is going to say the three are also having 6 parts in

> each. Again much later each part is having 3 micro atoms. Each of

> these micro atom has got violet coloured super micro atoms which

> cannot be measured. Human has got 6 DNA. Each DNA are having 6

> parts. Each part has 3 microzomes which are cause for human body

> function- age, moods, charactors, organ functional period etc.

This

> DNA theory is in web site and approved science. Regarding atom,

> science now saying protron can be divided.

>

> Read Geetha very carefully these are all stated in it.

>

> Given the exact date of birth, time, place of birth, one can find

> out what you are and what you were. This science is said in Kapila

> Geetha.

>

> There was Noah Arc (ship) built by Noah when GOD said from space

> that there is going to be biggest tsunami (Maha pralaya), so Noah

> should go in ship along with species of animals. Here in Hindu

> purana A saint heard voice from space mahapralaya is coming, build

a

> ship and load species of animal and food. GOD (voice) said , " I

will

> take you to Meru mountain during floods. It did happen where Sri

> Vishnu took avathar of big fish and dragged the ship to Meru.

Voice

> from space called " ASARIR "

>

> Old testament says the world is square. Hinduism says 4 square

> within a square is called 4 yugas life span of earth.

>

> Jesus said when slapped show the other cheek. Hinduism says

clearly,

> if a person slaps someone, that person is doing good, as the

> person`s account is getting credited with the sin transfered from

> the one being slapped. So showing another cheek further reduces

the

> sin of the one getting beaten. Christ endured even during

> crucification and attained an astral body. This is also said in

> Geetha

>

> Now there is scientific study on so many things that are already

in

> Vedas and Geetha. Person's Aura, Child learning even in Womb and

> attaining divinity (e.g. Prahlad), Funnel systems of human scienve

> versus conducive environments created for rebirth; Black Hole

> theory versus Krishna taking Arjuna to the Worlds beyond...past

> black hole to the land of Vaikunth.

>

> In Geetha Bagavan spoke of other worlds 2X7 worlds i.e. 14

worlds..

> Read today's paper " The Hindu " , where it states that scientists

are

> finding earth similar to ours.

>

> Geetha reveals to us about, " Stitha Pragnyan " . Scientist say 16

> thousands billion cells in human brain capable of controlling

> anything on earth when all the cells are focused to one point and

> used. Normally we use only a fraction of these cells that

a " Stitha

> Pragnyan " does.

>

> In Geetha--- It is said there are 84 Lac (8.4 milion) living

> species. It addresses distances of planets from earth. Science is

> now only discovering these.

>

> God (Bagavan) said, " I am in everything, but I am not that " . See

> nature and think of the creator. See ocean, think of creator. See

an

> angry person, think of the creator, WHO created the diverse people

> and creatures ? SO on.

>

> God (Bagavan) showed His Universal Form (Viswaroop) to Arjuna.

> Viswam (whole creation) is His form. Contemplating on it, one can

> think whether seed came first or tree came first. Can science

> answer? But Hindu scriptures has answers to these.

>

> Earth goes by Maha Pralaya (water), water eaten away by maha

> pralayagni (fire), fire disappers by maha Vayu (great winds),

winds

> vanishes in avakthiyam (space), space takes abode in Paramathuma

> (God)

>

> From where does--- Jackal get his cunningness, a 14 year boy

> effortlessly plays musically instrument, rich man turns poor and

> poor turns rich, a man clinicaly totally fit but from where the

> tumor started, a chain smoker never gets cancer, but a healthy man

> gets, the ecological imbalances, what causes untold disasters, etc

> all such answers are there in the Gita. God (Bagavan) in Geetha

> reveals to us Prakurthi (Nature and Creation). Defenition is there

> in the scriptures. There is everything in Geetha, nothing is left

> incomplete, not addressed or left out. But each word has to be

> refered from vedas/upanashids etc

>

> H2O is water. Hydrogen and Oxygen says science. But water has 6

> elements. Water taken in palm and drunk 6 times saying, " Pranaya

> Swaha, Appanaya swaha, Dynaya Swaha, etc ending Bramaneya Swaha',

> results in smooth and effective functioning of the pulmonary

system.

> Science is yet to do findings on this.

>

> In Gyana Marg in Geetha Bagavan says that yogi by constant

spiritual

> practice (sadhana) can activate charkras and send power from

> mooladhara through Susuba Naadi (a nerve in spinal cord) to

kapalam

> (skull) and through a very small opening sends himself (athman) to

> heavens reaching ME. Science is now finding a special nerve that

is

> going from bottom of spinal cord to the skull is performing

> electrical and magnetic energies at differant levels. But

scientist

> yet have to find out how this actually functions? Bagavan said

this

> in Geetha but to know more about such details about this nervous

> system, bagavan refers one has to read Patanjali Yoga a scrip

> written by saint Patanjali.

>

> There is so much more... there is no end to what is already in the

> Vedas, Upanishads and Geetha.

>

> Namaste.

>

> B.Sathyanarayan

>

> ------------------------------

> Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

>

> Few more beautiful responses from Sadhakas inspired me to build on

> some of views about Gita being scientific or not. It doesn't

matter

> really as it is said here, it is beyond Science and all other

> knowledge desciplines and yet supporting all knowledge.

>

> Scientific knowledge is limited as it is based on observations of

> objects outside. It has never studied the real Observer who makes

> observations possible. It cannot, because the Observer is not an

> object of perception and conception like all scientific studies

> require. Science can give only an empirical knowledge based on

> observations by a scientist to be confirmed by many others.

>

> Vedanta says all such knowledge desciplines have relative values

but

> in reality they are Avidya(nescience or paravidya). The only Vidya

> (knowledge) is that of Knowingness-Consciousness Itself by which

we

> know all things or nothing. I mean even ignorance needs this

> Consciousness to shine it to be able to say " I don't know " .

>

> No one can ever know " objects in themselves " . We take our sense

> perceptions and subsequent conceptions by mind, to be the objects

> external to us as science does which is not true.

>

> Our experience of objects is one of being aware of thought-

feelings

> triggered by objects. Our reality, as Naga Narayanaji put it, is

> Being THAT, the Absolute! Gitaji has such pointers throughout the

> chapters. In my view, it is better understood in the Upanisadic

> context to really benefit.

>

> Namaskaras, Pratap

> (Pratap Bhatt)

> ------------------------------

>

> Best way of knowing the truth is to experience the truth.

> If it transforms you increasing your happiness level then it is

the

> truth. No need for believing straightaway. Experience it first.

>

> The questions like the origin of Vedas / scientific explanations

can

> be important at some level but are irrelevant. Wisdom/ the truth

is

> important.

>

> Wisdom is the set of rules of life, which govern us.

>

> Sushil Jain

>

> Sri Vyas ji,

>

> Jai Sri Krishna,

>

> I have been reading GEETA JI recently and with a desire to know

> more, have joined this group. Your explainations about science and

> Geeta ji has been very clear and I am deeply moved by it.

>

> Pranam to you and your knowledge,

>

> Ravi Shahi

>

> , " sadhak_insight "

> <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> >

> > Hari Om

> >

> > Re Saadhak Daniel's Queries- Reply to Q no 3

> >

> > WHY WE SHOULD BELIEVE IN GITA / VEDAS ?

> >

> > A really good question. The best among the 6 questions. Many

> > powerful reasons can be given. However I shall give one reason

> only.

> > May be that clicks too. The briefest answer is " YOU SHOULD

> BELIEVE

> > IN GITA/VEDAS TO SATISFY ALL OF YOUR DESIRES – CONCLUSIVELY " ! !

> >

> > Every human being has desires to fulfil. Entire humanity with

no

> > exception is doing only the acts to fulfil their desires. There

> is

> > nothing else ! that each one of us is doing at present. It is

> quite

> > natural also because, in fact you have been given human birth

only

> > to fulfil your desires. Desires are born along with you. It is

a

> > law that if you have any desire then the element to fulfil that

> > desire is also existing. You cannot have a desire for a thing

> which

> > does not exist. For example, none of us has a desire to get

> > say " flower of sky " . That is because the flower of sky does not

> > exist. If we have thirst, that necessarily means that there

exists

> > water on the planet. Had there been no water existing on the

> planet

> > we would not have felt thirsty. So the principle is – if you

have

> a

> > desire there exists invariably an element to fulfil that

desire.

> It

> > is also a law that if you have a desire then the power to fulfil

> > that desire is also existing in you. That is the kindness of God

> and

> > that is justice also ! So you have a desire existing. You also

> have

> > that element existing which fulfils that desire. You have powers

> > also to fulfil that desire. Once these three meet- then the

desire

> > gets fulfilled and thereby extinguishes. Then there remains no

> > desire.

> >

> > Now what are your desires? They are not uncountable as we

> generally

> > believe. They are only three basically. (1) TO KNOW SOMETHING;

> (2)

> > TO DO SOMETHING ; and (3) TO GET SOMETHING. ( If any Reader can

> > provide fourth desire - welcome. Some may feel " desire to live' "

> to

> > be the 4th . But that desire is included in (3)- " to get " -

> > longevity/ immortality). All desires ultimately get classified

> into

> > these 3 categories. To fulfil these desires you have three

powers

> > with us. (1) power to know ; (2) power to do and ( 3 ) power

to

> > believe/accept. These are the powers we have. We don't have a

> power

> > to get. That which we are to get is realised by us , if we have

> > exercised our power to believe/accept correctly. It is also a

law

> > that if we fulfil any one of the above three desires

conclusively,

> > then the balance two desires get automatically fulfilled.

> >

> > Now about the third element of the trinity. The element which

> > fulfils the desire. What is that element ? With respect to the

> first

> > desire- to know something- the element has to be " that element

> > after knowing which nothing remains to be known " Then there

> should

> > not remain anything to be known. You have known everything.

> > Similarly your desire to do something can extinguish only when

you

> > have done that thing after doing which nothing remains to be

done,

> > the very desire to do something should extinguish. The same is

> with

> > your desire to get something. This can extinguish only when you

> have

> > got that thing after getting which nothing remains to get (to be

> > attained). The very desire to get something should extinguish.

So

> > the yardstick for fulfilment of desire is- extinguishment of

> > desire. What else can be the yardstick ? It is also a law that

you

> > cannot remain peaceful unless you have fulfilled your desires!

> > Naturally! How can you remain peaceful when the very purpose of

> your

> > getting human life is not fulfilled? Needless to say that if

today

> > you have these three desires existing in you then most certainly

> you

> > have not known/done/got those elements which fulfil and thereby

> > extinguish those desires! Any doubt?

> >

> > You have been for eons and ages in fact are busy in fulfilling

> > these desires only. In this life also what are you doing at

> present

> > except making efforts to fulfil these desires ? But have these

> > desires extinguished in you ? Are you peaceful? Do you have

> nothing

> > now to know/do/get? That means what? That means you are no where

> > near those elements which fulfil and therby extinguish these

three

> > basic desires! You made efforts throughout your life, you used

> your

> > powers consistently to fulfil your desires, but there are still

a

> > lot of things which you have to know/do/ get. Meaning thereby,

> job

> > unfulfilled ! No peace! What have you got till date by

hankering,

> > toiling, running, struggling ? - Sorrows, pains; frustrations,

> > dissatisfaction, deficiencies,lack of peace, tension, anxiety,

> fear,

> > turbulences, inner storms, 'birth' death; disease. And is there

an

> > end in sight ? Again dying with unfulfilled desires, once again

> > taking birth, the cycle continues and continues. What have you

> not

> > done (attempted) to fulfil the desires, what compromises you

have

> > not made to get what you desired? And still you are unhappy,

> > deficient. Still the same old desires are haunting you. Some

thing

> > wrong some where- is not it?

> >

> > Gita and Veda precisely tell you what you should do and what you

> > should not do. They tell you what you should know and what is

> futile

> > even if you know. They tell what you should strive to get and

what

> > is useless even if you get. How to get those final elements

which

> > fulfil and thereby extinguish forever these three desires in

you?

> > What are those elements? How to use your powers? How to become

> > peaceful? Who are you? How are you? To get answers, you should

> > believe in Gita/ Vedas. It is within your powers. You can

believe

> if

> > you want. " To believe " - is one of the three powers you have

> got

> > with you. Use that power of belief correctly, in right direction

> and

> > get in return a liberation from an otherwise endless cycle.. Get

> > peaceful. Get real ANANDA ( Bliss).. .

> >

> > One good enough reason?

> >

> > Jai Shree Krishna.

> >

> > Vyas N B

> > --------------------------------

--

> -

> > Loving Divine,

> > Pranam.

> > Beautiful question and beautiful answers. I am going to add

> little

> > more to it. In my understanding, Gitaji is a very compact book

of

> > Psychology - science of studying mind and its manifestation in

> > personal and social life. If one understands his/her own

> > psychology, one is able to help oneself move in the right

> direction,

> > at the right time by making the right decision. This also helps

> one

> > to understand behaviour of others in general. Eventually, this

> > brings better harmony in life. The following information is

from

> > Wikipedia. Try to understand this definition and then read

> Bhagwat

> > Gita, you will understand lot of things yourself why one should

> > study it!

> >

> > 'Psychology is an academic and applied discipline involving the

> > analytic and scientific study of mental processes and behavior.

> > Psychologists study such phenomena as perception, cognition,

> > emotion, personality, behavior, and interpersonal relationships.

> > Psychology also refers to the application of such knowledge to

> > various spheres of human activity including issues related to

> daily

> > life—e.g. family, education, and work—and the treatment of

mental

> > health problems. Psychology attempts to understand the role

these

> > functions play in social behavior and in social dynamics, while

> > incorporating the underlying physiological and neurological

> > processes into its conceptions of mental functioning. Psychology

> > includes many sub-fields of study and application concerned with

> > such areas as human development, sports, health, industry,

media,

> > law, and transpersonal psychology.'

> >

> > Even though there are many sub-fields discussed in last line, my

> > strong conviction is that one can not change anything without

> > bringing a change in one's own mental state and that's what

> Krishna

> > helped Arjun to realize. After understanding the above

> definition,

> > when one studies Gitaji, lot more things open up! Just chapter

> one

> > raises lot of issues like discriminating mentality - yours vs.

> mine,

> > ego, illusion, racism, depression, fear, desire, attachment,

> result

> > of being over ambitious, stubbornness, ignorance, disrespect -

> > attitude problem, self praise, boasting, distrust, dejection,

sin,

> > virtues - vices, some blind practices that are still going on in

> > today's environment, etc. Age old mind has not changed a bit

even

> > in today's so call scientific advancements - technological

age.

> > The key treatments offered are talking to a wise - trustworthy

> > friend, having faith - love - devotion, right karma (action),

> right

> > understanding via knowledge, yoga-meditation, right eating,

right

> > attitude, regular study/practice of ones own mind and taking

right

> > action at the right time, etc... Ultimately practicing what

> Gitaji

> > is suggesting, one can expand his/her mind to cosmic level,

> freeing

> > one from all of this and reaching to liberation!

> >

> > Gitaji is showing a way for one to become his/her own scientist,

> > conduct the experiments suggested and conclude yourself rather

> than

> > depending on studies conducted by someone else! Accept the

> > challenge and find out what it has to offer!

> >

> > Hope this helps.

> > humble regards,

> > always at Thy Holy Feet

> >

> > Manjula Patel

> > --------------------------------

--

> > Jai Shri Krishna,

> >

> > Re Saadhak Daniel `s Query- Reply to Q no 2

> >

> > The dictionary definition of the word 'Science' has been brought

> out

> > by Vyas Ji while addressing the subject query. The dictionary

> might

> > have defined the word say a few thousand years ago. However, the

> > word Science has been defined by Gitaji for TIMES IMMEMORIAL.

> >

> > The English word Science is known as 'Vigyan' in Sanskrit, which

> is

> > an eternal language of Sanatan Dharma. Vi-gyan means special

> > knowledge (learned or scientific knowledge, or philosophical

> > acquired knowledge).

> >

> > It is important to note that the word Science has been defined

in

> > Gitaji at various places ( eg. Gitaji 7/2, 9/1). In fact each

> verse

> > in Gitaji treasures oceans of sciences, if explored. The

question

> of

> > Gitaji standing the test of qualifying to be scientific does not

> > arise at all then.

> >

> > Gitaji has laid the laws and procedures for getting free from

> grief

> > (18/66), way of performing duties (2/47), renunciation (18/9),

> > ensuring that sins stay away from us (2/38), style of eating

food

> > (6/16-17), offering anything to God (9/26), donation(17/20),

> > equanimity (3/34) and so on and so forth, in precise yet

> > comprehensive and logical (so called scientific) ways.

> >

> > Gitaji is much LARGER than science.

> >

> > Narayan Narayan

> > Rajendra J Bohra

> > --------------------------------

--

> -

> > Mr. Keenor has made couple of apt observations. I could not agree

> > with him more in:

> >

> > 1. 'The Gita' is beyond science - one should derive support for

> > one's sceintific understanding from Vedanta. NOT vice versa .

All

> > attempts to bring " sceince " in Gita does not make any sense to me

> > either. Of course, Vedanta makes many sweeping observations on

> > science as well just like any other faculty of human information

> > system to make a point. One should not limit oneself to such

> > observations. Then, we would miss the boat altogether.

> >

> > 2. Bhagvada Gita is not a matter of just acceptance, it would not

> > ring a bell for someone like me who spent their life in

technology.

> > My faith in it, is based on experience - Vedanta is beyond

> > acceptance, observation, understanding, learning etc. It is a

> matter

> > of being THAT. Nothing else. Of course, acceptance,

understanding,

> > learning etc. are all part of the process ... but yet cannot

> > encompass THAT in anyway. The seeker should keep this in mind

> > perpetually.

> >

> > Respects.

> >

> > Naga Narayana.

> > --------------------------------

-

> > Thanks Mike.

> > As a child, my grandmother told stories to me. She would ask

which

> > story, you want for today. And then she would tell same stories

> > again with adding more depth into it. After 50 years, I hold

> belief

> > in those stories that guides my life in matters of human

> > sensibilities. Bhagwat Gita is just like that. I miss the grand

> > mother for the love, and her stories and care, and it gets

> > substitute by the Bhagwat Gita which similarly answers all

> > questions, and repeats with more depth.

> >

> > Bhagwat Gita is about you talking to yourself, and that yourself

> is

> > absoltely detached and free. Once you start knowing 'that freed

> > yourself' more, you living into world become free and detached.

> >

> > Best regards

> > K G

> > (Krishna Gopal)

> >

> > --------------------------------

--

> --

> > , " sadhak_insight "

> > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > >

> > > -Shree Hari-

> > >

> > > A person who I had made acquaintance with under strange

> > > circumstances, one day he said, " Mike you should read the

> Bhagavad

> > > Gita " . He lent me a copy, he knew what it was about. I found

> that

> > it

> > > was amazing, it explained things to me that I had thought

about,

> > and

> > > had experienced, these were things that were almost never

dealt

> > with

> > > in western philosophy or science. How is it possible that

this

> > book

> > > was able to answer question that laid deep within the psyche

of a

> > > person who had nothing to do with the faith behind it?

> > >

> > > This was a good few years ago, I am now reading this sacred

text

> > > slowly now on line, it has authoritative comments, and I am

> > > allowing it to take me as far and as deep, that it will.

> > >

> > > To me 'The Gita' is beyond science. I have long considered

that

> > > science is constrained by the dogmas within it.

> > >

> > > From my point of view the Bhagvada Gita is not a matter of just

> > > acceptance, it would not ring a bell for someone like me who

> spent

> > > their life in technology. My faith in it, is based on

experience.

> > >

> > > With respects and Divine love,

> > >

> > > Mike Keenor

> > >

> > > ------------------------------

--

> -

> > > Shree Hari

> > > Ram Ram

> > >

> > > Dear Daniel, thanks for a very good question!

> > > Gita describes four Yogas to achieve the only goal of human

life

> to

> > > realize the inherent divinity in man by uniting with the

Supreme.

> > > The Yoga of Devotion (Bhakti Yoga) is considered a direct,

simple

> > > and the best path. To follow this path, starting point is

> > acceptance

> > > and surrender in exclusive love of God. Even though this path

> > starts

> > > with acceptance but eventually it leads to Knowledge of the

> Supreme

> > > in the end. This fact about the path of devotion as a potent

> method

> > > to realize the goal, is not unique to Gita or Hindu tradition

> but

> > is

> > > true for the most wisdom traditions of the world. The

importance

> of

> > > acceptance is brought out by Swamiji Maharaj time & again in

his

> > > discourses and has been already captured beautifully by

Vyasji's

> > > response (#1).

> > >

> > > In science we go from proof to belief, in devotion we go from

> > belief

> > > to proof.

> > >

> > > From the stand point of Yoga of Action (Karma Yoga), we do not

> have

> > > to just accept what is declared in Gita but we can

scientifically

> > > verify it first through our own observation and personal

> > experience.

> > > The spiritual truths remain always unchanged, regardless of

> whether

> > > we accept them or not. These truths have been experienced and

> > > validated by sages and seers over the centuries. For our

> > > satisfaction, we too can validate these spiritual truths

through

> > our

> > > own experimentation.

> > >

> > > Here are few of the verses from Gita on Karma Yoga to

illustrate

> > how

> > > we can apply science to verify the truths in Gita:

> > >

> > > Gita 2-62/63

> > >

> > > Shows logically, the sequence of events when person gets angry

> and

> > > the consequence which follow -

> > >

> > > " The man dwelling on sense-objects develops attachment for

them;

> > > from attachment springs up desire, and from desire

(unfulfilled)

> > > ensures anger. From anger arises delusion; from delusion

> confusion

> > > of memory, from confusion of memory loss of discrimination

> (Budhi);

> > > from the loss of discrimination, he falls down from his

> > > spiritual goal " .

> > >

> > > Gita 2-64

> > >

> > > On what should the mind, weaned through from the senses, be

> placed?

> > >

> > > " But a man of disciplined mind, though moving about amongst the

> > > objects of senses under control, free from likes and dislikes,

> > > attains tranquility of mind " .

> > >

> > > Gita 2-71

> > >

> > > What should the aspirant do so that he may gain access to the

> > > perfect state:

> > >

> > > " He who abandons all desires and acts free from longing,

without

> > > attachment, egoism, he attains lasting peace " .

> > >

> > > Gita 2-56

> > >

> > > Pacification of the mind is explained -

> > >

> > > " He whose mind is not perturbed by adversity, who does not

crave

> > for

> > > temporary happiness, who is free from fondness, fear and anger

is

> > > the sage (Muni) of steady wisdom " .

> > >

> > > Gita 3-36

> > >

> > > Why does an intelligent man commit sin?

> > >

> > > Arjuna said: " By what is a man compelled to commit sin, as if

> > driven

> > > by force, even against his will, O Varsneya (Krishna) " .

> > >

> > > Gita 3-37

> > >

> > > The Blessed Lord said: " The desire born of the mode of passion

> > > (Rajas), is anger, all devouring and most sinful. Know this to

be

> > > the enemy here " .

> > >

> > > Similarly we can verify with our scientific enquiry many

verses

> in

> > > Gita on Jnana Yoga and Yoga of Self Control, before accepting

> these

> > > spiritual truths in Gita.

> > >

> > > Another question was about the source of Gita, in my humble

> > opinion,

> > > that is only an intellectual exercise, more important question

is

> > > can the principles declared in Gita, when applied in our daily

> life

> > > help to reach the goal!

> > >

> > > Humble regards,

> > >

> > > Madan Kaura

> > > ----------------------------

> > >

> > > , " sadhak_insight "

> > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Hari Om

> > > >

> > > > Re Saadhak Daniel `s Query- Reply to Q no 2

> > > >

> > > > At the outset I must clarify that a thing which is subject

> matter

> > > of

> > > > belief/faith/acceptance/trust can also be scientific. It is

not

> > > > necessary ( as we generally believe) that whatever is

subject

> > > > matter of belief cant be scientific!

> > > >

> > > > IS THERE SCIENTIFIC EXPLANATION FOR GITA?

> > > >

> > > > " Scientific " explanation/method/view ! " Science " ! Before I

> deal

> > > > with these two terms with reference to Gita/ Vedas , let me

> tell

> > > you

> > > > that there is one more similar word in English language

> > > > called " SCIENTISM " ! " Scientism " means as per English

> > Dictionary -

> > > > " The tendency to reduce all reality and experience to

> > mathematical

> > > > descriptions of physical and chemical phenomena " !! When

> people

> > > > reflected this tendency with reference to topics other

> > > > than " physical and chemical phenomena " under the garb

> > of " Science "

> > > > or " Scientific " , the " Saturday Review " Editors got wild

and

> > they

> > > > issued a powerful statement- so powerful that it now finds

> place

> > > in

> > > > Dictionaries of English Language- under " SCIENTISM " . The

> > > statement

> > > > said – " Those of us who think that Scientific method is

> > > applicable

> > > > to political problems are apt to be told, rather sharply,

that

> we

> > > > are talking " scientism " . This statement is relevant for the

> topic

> > > > under reference and applies mutatis mutandis on any subject

> > > > including subject matter of belief i. e. on any subject

which

> is

> > > > not related with " physical and chemical phenomena " !

However

> my

> > > > intention here is not to say that Gita is not scientific.

Here

> I

> > > am

> > > > answering partly also Q no 4 of Brother Daniel.

> > > >

> > > > What is " SCIENCE " ? The dictionary meaning of " science " - (a)

> > > > knowledge based on observed facts and tested truths arranged

> in

> > an

> > > > orderly system; (b) a branch of such knowledge dealing with

> > > > phenomena of the universe and their laws; © skill based on

> > > > training and practice ; (d) SEARCH FOR TRUTH ; (e)

systematic,

> > > > accurate, exact. The dictionary meaning of " SCIENTIFIC

> METHOD " –

> > > An

> > > > orderly method consisting of identifying a problem ,

gathering

> > all

> > > > the pertinent data,,formulating a hypothesis, performing

> > > > experiments, interpreting results and drawing conclusions.

The

> > > > branches of science are Natural sciences, Social sciences,

> > Applied

> > > > Sciences, Physical sciences, Natural Sciences etc etc. That

is

> > all

> > > > what is called SCIENCE or SCIENTIFIC

METHOD/EXPLANATION/VIEW

> > What

> > > > else it means?

> > > >

> > > > Gita and Vedas not only fall into each and every yardstick

of

> the

> > > > aforesaid definitions but are far superior to them.

> > > >

> > > > Everything in Gita is scientific only. There is nothing in

> Gita

> > > > which can be called illogical, inaccurate or irrational.

There

> is

> > > no

> > > > inconsistency in the 700 verses with each other. All the

laws,

> > > > principles, theories stated therein are proved by the

> experience.

> > > It

> > > > is in perfect sync with theories of Veda, Upanishads and

other

> > > > eternal scriptures of Hindu Dharma. It explains everything.

> > There

> > > > are many things for which no where else the explanation is

> > > available

> > > > but in Gita and allied scriptures.The explanations,

> > > interpretations,

> > > > concepts, laws, processes enumerated in Gita of the Soul,

> > > > equanimity, Yoga, Surrender, God, Jeeva(self), Jagat

(universe,

> > > > world) , Gunas (attributes), Maya (illusion), Bondage,

> > Liberation,

> > > > Conscience, Nature (prakrati), Gross/Subtle and causal

bodies,

> > > types

> > > > or variations of Prana ( air operating in body), Duty ,

> Desires ,

> > > > Mind, Intellect, Ego , Sorrow, Happiness, Karma, Doer, Law of

> > > Karma,

> > > > Heaven, Hell etc etc cannot be disputed when put on the

> > > yardsticks

> > > > of a person's direct experience level and logic. They are

> exact,

> > > > accurate and precise. They are nothing but truthful. The

Laws,

> > > > Principles or Formulae given in Gita are infallible! There

are

> > > > people who practiced the principles of Gita and reaped the

> fruits

> > > > exactly as stated in Gita. The principles given in Gita get

> never

> > > > outdated- unlike the principles of science., The reasons of

> > > > pleasures and pains are perfectly given- you cant argue them

> out!

> > > > The entire universe and its phenomena is covered in Gita.

Not

> > only

> > > > the present life but the state after death has been covered.

> The

> > > > methods of eradication of pain from human life given in Gita

> are

> > > so

> > > > accurate that if you practice them there is no chance that

you

> > can

> > > > fail in the same. The principles and practice of Self/ God

> > > > Realisation are given to the perfection. Various

alternatives

> and

> > > > perfect processes have been given of the paths leading to

> > > > liberation, and to God. ( and for that purpose of the paths

> > > leading

> > > > to hell and heaven). Laws are explained, the exceptions are

> > given.

> > > > Just as the scientific formulas operate in day to day life

with

> > > the

> > > > precision, the formulas given in Gita also operate in day to

> day

> > > > life with precision. Gita is larger than any science. It

> > > addresses/

> > > > explains those issues which science till today has not been

> able

> > > to

> > > > address. Like in Science, In Gita also the formulas given

are

> > > > proven-- by your direct experiences. To compare Gita with

> > science

> > > > is disrespect to Gita. Science is one of the many many ways

of

> > > > explaining or proving a given scenario and that science is

more

> > > > useful in terms of material or physical or chemical

phenomena.

> > > But

> > > > Gita extends much beyond what science can ever imagine. The

> best

> > > > proof is your own experience. No body till date has been

able

> to

> > > > negate or argue out against what is stated in Gita. We all

> have

> > a

> > > > choice always , however, to believe or not. The Yoga

process

> of

> > > > Gita ( control of Prana) and Patanjali Yoga Darshan has been

> > > > practiced by the millions of Saints, Sages, Rishis, ordinary

> > > people,

> > > > Yogis, Saadhaks in the past and now also. None disputed their

> > > > results. The Praanayaam explained in Gita is even today

> > > practiced

> > > > by millions of people across the globe. What more arguments

are

> > > > needed to prove something to be scientific. You certainly

> cannot

> > > > satisfy those who indulge in " SCIENTISM " . Because to get

> > satisfied

> > > > also is a subject matter of belief/acceptance !!!

> > > >

> > > > Jai Shree Krishna.

> > > >

> > > > Vyas N B

> > > > ----------------------------

--

> -

> > > > Dear Sadak,

> > > >

> > > > With Ref to Daniel quiry.

> > > >

> > > > In Mathura there is place (Jail) where Krishna was born, HIS

> > nanda

> > > > Gokul is there, Kans (Kamsa Krishna uncle) kingdom is there.

> The

> > > > names of persons with whom Krishna dealt is there with there

> > > > residential proof. Sri Krishna where HE lived Dwaraka is

there

> > > > submerged in sea coast.

> > > >

> > > > Now regards scientific comparision: HE (sri Krishna) said

> about-

> > > > human body system, food, inhaling process, mental changes

due

> to

> > > > vasanas, how one` s destiny is working scientifically system

of

> > > > birth and death, purpose of birth, six stages of changes

that

> all

> > > > living beings undergo (in sanskrit word starting from

> Parimalathe

> > > > (appear) -to- Asthi (death) ), how to reach divinity, six

> mental

> > > > levels starting from Kaama-Krodha-Madha etc which today

science

> > > > says mental balance is important for health, HE taught how

to

> > > > behave with teacher, friend (Kuchela), oponant Duryodhan,

> parents

> > > > etc. HE also taught complete detachment if one contemplates

on

> > HIS

> > > > life patern. HE could forsee the fate of Jarasand whose fate

to

> > > die

> > > > in the hands of Bheema. HE could know anyone

> intellect.Example:

> > HE

> > > > acted to have headache and said it could be cured by the

dust

> of

> > > HIS

> > > > baktha. Narada, HIS 8 wives, and other refused to dust when

HE

> > > > asked. Then HE said get the dust of Gopies. Later everyone

> > relized

> > > > their mistakes.

> > > >

> > > > Faith can move mountains. To day in Kaliyuga everything is

> > > doubted.

> > > > One doubt is enough, that one will multiply to infinite

> > completely

> > > > removing peace of mind. These are said in Geetha if one reads

> > > > carfully.

> > > >

> > > > B.Sathyanarayan

> > > > ----------------------------

--

> -

> > > > Hari Om

> > > >

> > > > Dear Sri Daniel

> > > >

> > > > I was intrigued by your query and therefore decided to test

> > myself

> > > on

> > > > the same lines.

> > > >

> > > > Being a Science student and definitely having a bias towards

> > > > Mathematics, I have always sought to reduce any concept or

> idea

> > to

> > > > simple rules.

> > > >

> > > > I am reminded of a Mathematics term " Axiom " . It means " A

self-

> > > > evident principle or one that is accepted as true without

> proof

> > as

> > > > the basis for argument; a postulate " .

> > > >

> > > > Can Gita be reduced to an Axiom. I often wonder !

> > > >

> > > > St. Augustine said, " Faith is to believe what you do not

see;

> the

> > > > reward of this faith is to see what you believe " .

> > > >

> > > > The route to achieving the goal as prescribed in Gita is to

> > pursue

> > > > diligently what is said in Gita, taking it as an Axiom, and

at

> > > every

> > > > stage experiencing the change within.

> > > >

> > > > Have I experienced any change? Yes.

> > > >

> > > > I have seen changes in myself with reference to Anger, I

have

> > seen

> > > > the benefits of Acceptance, and am sure several of the

Sadhakas

> > > > experience the changes within which gives them the

confidence

> > that

> > > > they are in THE PATH.

> > > >

> > > > Thanks for the query

> > > >

> > > > Hari Om

> > > > Jayaraman

> > > > ----------------------------

--

> > > > All these explanations are in a stand point of Intellect

> > only.....

> > > >

> > > > Do you believe that you have Father and Grand Father or Great

> > > Grand

> > > > Father.. or Great Great Grand Father?

> > > >

> > > > Do you believe you exist? Then all our Sastras also exist...

> > > >

> > > > I got a big laugh when our present remote sensing Sonia asked

> > > about

> > > > Sri Rama's Birth Certificate, what a foolishness.....

> > > >

> > > > All these are in the argument level. Can you show you have

> > > Brains..

> > > > I need proof. I need to see the brain physically not through

> > image

> > > > scanning!!

> > > >

> > > > May GOD Bless

> > > >

> > > > Krishna Prasad

> > > >

> > > > ----------------------------

--

> --

> > > > , " sadhak_insight "

> > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > Dear Daniel

> > > > > There are three words a) information b) knowledge c) truth.

> > > > > Information is empirical or a typical case like history, or

> > > court

> > > > > case with names and places and details of observervation.

> Akbar

> > > > and

> > > > > Ashoka both are rulers but student of history can not

> substitue

> > > > one

> > > > > with another.

> > > > >

> > > > > Knowledge is not information but a model or

> theoretical/logical

> > > > > model which is not dependent on a given history or

experiment

> > > but

> > > > is

> > > > > always there in some form or the other. Physics is not a

> given

> > > > > history but ever present (sanaatan, nitya) and f = force,

g=

> > > > > gravity, v= velocity are symbol of characters which takes

> any

> > > > names

> > > > > and places in value. Physics can thus, predict any

> information

> > > > > without specific names. This 'physics' which is nitya,

> sanaatan

> > > is

> > > > > thus an example of knowledge.

> > > > >

> > > > > Satya (truth) is one step beyond the knowledge. It is

> universal

> > > > > knowledge and therefore known naturally to all f us without

> > > > effort,

> > > > > and common to all. Because it is common, there cannot exist

> > > > > differences in opinon, and thus no conflict. Gandhi

therefore

> > > > > defined truth in its property of non voilence. In other

> words,

> > > if

> > > > > understanding of Bhagwat Gita makes one contemplative and

> > > > > independent, and free from anexiety, conflict then this is

> > > Truth.

> > > > >

> > > > > Science is not truth but a way to truth. This is a know

how

> of

> > > > > already known things. If there is no truth, there can not

be

> > > > > sciences explaining that. Thus, truth is the aim of all

> > > > knowledges.

> > > > > It can only be realized but when it comes to explanation,

it

> > > > becomes

> > > > > sciences.

> > > > >

> > > > > I cannot write how many times in Bhagwat Gita, satya

(Truth)

> > and

> > > > > gyan (Knowledge) are used differently, and accurate

> absolutely.

> > > > >

> > > > > Best regards

> > > > > K G

> > > > > (Krishna Gopal)

> > > > > --------------------------

--

> --

> > -

> > > > > Jai Shri Krishna,

> > > > >

> > > > > Re: Sadhak Daniel's query - Q 1

> > > > >

> > > > > Vyas Ji has beautifully addressed Sadhak Daniel's query on

> > > > > Acceptance.

> > > > >

> > > > > Acceptance is FAR MORE Superior than learning (knowledge).

> > > > Whatever

> > > > > one accepts in life, one never forgets, whereas anything

> learnt

> > > > can

> > > > > always be forgotten, partially or completely. If you are

> woken

> > > up

> > > > in

> > > > > the middle of the night and asked what is your marital

> status,

> > > you

> > > > > will not need even a second to think before answering this

> > > > question

> > > > > because you have firmly accepted that you are bachelor,

> married

> > > or

> > > > > widower.

> > > > >

> > > > > At least in the Indian context, a chaste (Pativrata) woman,

> > > > accepts

> > > > > her relationship with the person she marries just by the

> saying

> > > of

> > > > > the Priest performing the matrimonial rituals. The

> acceptance

> > is

> > > > > instant and so firm that even after say 50 years of the

> death

> > of

> > > > her

> > > > > husband she becomes vigilant whenever anyone takes her

> > husband's

> > > > > name. She can never forget the acceptance of the man as her

> > > > husband.

> > > > > A Suhagan (a married woman with her husband alive) does

not

> see

> > > > > herself as 'Widow' even in her dreams - that is the power

of

> > > > > ACCEPTANCE.

> > > > >

> > > > > We all will vouch for the fact that many things we learn

in

> > life

> > > > > (knowledge acquired), we tend to forget with time. BUT no

one

> > > > > forgets whatever one accepts once.

> > > > >

> > > > > Use of underestimating words such as " simply " is apt at

best

> to

> > > > > learning (knowledge) only. Acceptance is on top at 100 on

on

> a

> > > > scale

> > > > > where learning is at 1.

> > > > >

> > > > > Narayan Narayan

> > > > >

> > > > > Rajendra J Bohra

> > > > >

> > > > > --------------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > > > Why we should believe in the Gita or for that matter the

> Vedas?

> > > > >

> > > > > Belief in anything is useless in itself. Yet, belief alone

> can

> > > let

> > > > > anyone start one's journey toward anything including

> > > spirituality.

> > > > >

> > > > > You cannot derive benefit from anything – be it Gita or

> Vedas

> > or

> > > > > cough medicine – unless you have a belief to start with.

It

> is

> > > our

> > > > > habit to ignore things unless we have a belief. Therefore,

> one

> > > > > should have belief in something if one wants to derive

> benefits

> > > > from

> > > > > anything. Belief is the key to the door for any body of

> > knowledge

> > > > > including Vedanta.

> > > > >

> > > > > If we make our beleifs our path we won't go anywhere just

> like

> > a

> > > > > blind man following another blind man. Belief cannot reap

the

> > > > fruits

> > > > > from anything unless we adapt to the path we choose.

> Threfore,

> > > it

> > > > is

> > > > > what you understand and realize from the scripts that

> matters

> > for

> > > > > our progress. Carrying out anything without understanding

is

> > even

> > > > > worse than not doing it since we could channel our

resources

> to

> > > > what

> > > > > helps us. Understanding is the key to tread the path we

> choose

> > > > > including spiritual practice.

> > > > >

> > > > > But, even if we understand great meanings out of the

> scripts,

> > it

> > > is

> > > > > of no use unless it is adapted in our life. No matter what

we

> > > > > understand in our thought process, we continue to fidget

in

> our

> > > > > lives contrary to our very understanding unless the

knowledge

> > > > > perculates to our atomic existence in its subtlety and

> clarity.

> > > It

> > > > > is what we are that matters at any point of time – before

the

> > > path

> > > > > wherein no belief has dawned, in the path wherein the

belief

> > has

> > > > > kicked off the process, and all along the path wherein the

> > > > knowledge

> > > > > trickles into our living, in its purity. After all what we

> > would

> > > be

> > > > > matters no matter we took guidance from an Upanishad or

from

> a

> > > Veda

> > > > > or from The Gita or from any other scriptures or from The

> Life

> > as

> > > > > such.

> > > > >

> > > > > The idea is to be at peace. The litmus test for our state

in

> > the

> > > > > path is the happiness. Anything that deviates us from our

> > natural

> > > > > state of peace and happiness is reveals the play of our

> > ignorance

> > > > > and alerts us to explore and fix the same at once. To jump

> > start

> > > > > ourselves in such a process we should believe in Vedas. To

> keep

> > > in

> > > > > pace with the process, we should understand the Vedas. To

be

> > one

> > > > with

> > > > > the process, we should be the Vedas.

> > > > >

> > > > > Veda means Knowledge. Knowledge means Bliss. Bliss is The

> > Truth.

> > > We

> > > > > should be grateful to the Faith as it put us in the path of

> > > > > Knowledge. We should be grateful to the Knowledge as it

> marches

> > > us

> > > > > toward the Bliss. We should be grateful to the Bliss as it

> > keeps

> > > us

> > > > > with the Truth. All are excellent as far as they are

> correctly

> > > > > placed and practiced.

> > > > >

> > > > > Respects.

> > > > >

> > > > > Naga Narayana.

> > > > >

> > > > > --------------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > --

> > > > --

> > > > >

> > > > > Jai hree Krishna Pryia Bhandus

> > > > >

> > > > > Based on my understanding, Gita/Vedas are the origins of

> > > LANGUAGE,

> > > > > MATHS AND SCIENCE. Here is an example of Math and the

number

> > > ZERO.

> > > > > Origins from SANYAS into Arabic SIFER to Latin CIFER and

> > english

> > > > > ZERO.

> > > > >

> > > > > As I understand, the concept of Nothingness came from Vedic

> > > > thought

> > > > > as well. SANATAN DHARMA represents Eternal and ultimate

> TRUTH.

> > > > > These Eternal Truths existed even before creation, just

like

> > > > gravity

> > > > > existed even before Newton labeled it as gravity, when he

> > > observed

> > > > > the apple falling from a tree.

> > > > >

> > > > > Jai Hind

> > > > > Jayesh A Patel

> > > > > London

> > > > >

> > > > > , " sadhak_insight "

> > > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Hari Om

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Re Saadhak Daniel's Queries - Reply to Question No 1

> > > > > >

> > > > > > There are too many queries emanating in reality. First

> let

> > > me

> > > > > > summarise them. Then a separate reply shall be given for

> each

> > > > > query.

> > > > > > In the end we shall conclude- so that time and space

> > > > requirements

> > > > > of

> > > > > > Moderator also remain complied with.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Q 1 Is Gita simply a matter of Acceptance?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Q 2 Is there scientific explanation ( other than

> > acceptance) ?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Q 3 Why we should believe in the Gita or for that

purpose

> > > the

> > > > > > Vedas?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Q 4 How do you explain to some one that whatever is

> > explained

> > > > in

> > > > > > Gita is truthful ?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Q 5 How do we know the real source of Gita?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Q 6 Is there anything in the Gita that provides

> scientific

> > > > view /

> > > > > > explanation or anything that addresses the Origin of

Vedas/

> > > Gita?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Now these are the six questions, which Brother Daniel has

> > > asked,

> > > > > at

> > > > > > the same time acknowledging that he has been studying

Gita

> > and

> > > > > > believes that everything stated therein is truth. He

wants

> > now

> > > > to

> > > > > > make others believe that.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > In this posting first I will take Q no 1. Every day I

shall

> > > > > address

> > > > > > one question and in the end shall conclude.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > IS GITA SIMPLY A MATTER OF ACCEPTANCE?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Everything in this world basically is a matter of

> acceptance

> > > > only.

> > > > > > Why to single out Gita? Take your birth for example. Can

> you

> > > say

> > > > > > based on the " knowledge " - your own personal knowledge -

as

> to

> > > > who

> > > > > is

> > > > > > your father? You don't remember your birth. Whoever gave

> you

> > > > love

> > > > > > and affection in the beginning was your mother and to

> > > whosoever

> > > > > she

> > > > > > pointed out was your father! How will you prove that Mr

So

> > and

> > > > So

> > > > > is

> > > > > > your father ? THERE IS NO WAY ANYBODY CAN PROVE BASED ON

> HIS

> > > > > > KNOWLEDGE THAT HE IS SON OF MR SO AND SO

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I repeat no way! This is a fact. Anybody can raise a

> separate

> > > > > query

> > > > > > on this. You have to accept only in the beginning. Later

on

> > > the

> > > > > > knowledge comes. It is your acceptance level which opens

> the

> > > > door

> > > > > of

> > > > > > knowledge in life. When you accept that you are son of

so

> and

> > > > so,

> > > > > > that acceptance keeps strengthening in you and when you

> > become

> > > > > adult

> > > > > > or old , your talking, walking styles, your physique or

> > > > mannerism

> > > > > > start resembling to your father ! First you have to

> accept.

> > > You

> > > > > > accept first that alphabet A comes before alphabet B,

> later

> > on

> > > > you

> > > > > > may become a Professor of English language. You have to

> > accept

> > > > > first

> > > > > > that one plus one is two- later on you can get a

> Doctorate

> > in

> > > > > > mathematics! Why one plus one is 2 and not 3? Why do you

> > > > pronounce

> > > > > A

> > > > > > as A and not as B? You accepted first. Later on you

became

> > > > > > knowledgeable! Just as you accepted someone to be your

> > father,

> > > > you

> > > > > > have to first accept God also. Later on all explanations

> and

> > > > > logics

> > > > > > will flow. You cant establish by knowledge the identity

of

> > > your

> > > > > own

> > > > > > father, where is the question then of establishing

> > > > > > the eternal father , the God? Same is for Gita also

which

> is

> > > the

> > > > > > voice of that God only- whose identity you cant establish

> > > based

> > > > on

> > > > > > your knowledge. God is beyond knowledge. God or Gita or

our

> > > > > fathers

> > > > > > all are matter of belief and acceptance. Yes Gita is a

> > matter

> > > > of

> > > > > > acceptance! What is wrong with that? If you start making

a

> > > list-

> > > > > you

> > > > > > will find uncountable things in life which you accepted

> > first.

> > > > We

> > > > > > shall deal with it later on with specific reference.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Jai Shree Krishna

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Vyas N B

> > > > > >

> > > > > > ------------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > --

> > > > --

> > > > > > Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Very good question, " One has studied Gita for some time

and

> > > > > believes

> > > > > > that it has absolute truth, but how do you explain to

> someone

> > > > else

> > > > > > logically that Gita has the truth? "

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The way I understand is that belief in truth has a place

in

> > > > > > organized religions. However the truth as taught in Gita

or

> > > Veda

> > > > > or

> > > > > > other such scriptures is to be experienced. The teaching

is

> > > > about

> > > > > > the reality of " I " , the world, and God, and above all

how

> > they

> > > > are

> > > > > > related to each other. Simply belief in the truth will

not

> > > work

> > > > in

> > > > > > this case as it is not organized around God, the truth.

> Gita

> > > is

> > > > > not

> > > > > > dogmatic. Many possibilities are explained rather than

> > > preached

> > > > > > specific. When one's belief is replaced with knowing

> > > > > experientially,

> > > > > > one knows how to explain to others!

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Second difficulty is that the experience of God is

unlike

> all

> > > > > other

> > > > > > experiences which are all objective knowledge through

sense

> > > > > organs,

> > > > > > mind and intellect. All such experiences are limited in

> > scope.

> > > > God

> > > > > > is that Knowingness itself through which everything else

is

> > > > known

> > > > > to

> > > > > > exist in the first place and that which cannot be

> > objectified,

> > > > > When

> > > > > > objectified, God becomes limited object of our belief.

> Belief

> > > in

> > > > > God

> > > > > > takes one up to a certain point, never to final

salvation..

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Lord Krishna is speaking unspeakable only because we

need

> to

> > > > > > communicate to ohers with a full knowledge that it is

only

> a

> > > > > pointer

> > > > > > to truth. One has to walk accordingly.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Such being the case, my suggestion would be to explain

> these

> > > > above

> > > > > > points first. Then one has to study with open mind,

asking

> > > > > > questions, doubting, and not resting until answers become

> > > > > > convictions and resonate within oneself. True

> Understanding

> > of

> > > > > > verses culminate into bursts of joy and satisfaction.

This

> is

> > > a

> > > > > test

> > > > > > of experience of truth. In this regard help of like

minded

> > > > > friends,

> > > > > > realized teacher, and platform such as this group is

highly

> > > > > > recommended. The one to whom we want to explain has to be

> > > > > interested

> > > > > > in truth and approach us to have a meaningful

explanation.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Namaskars...Pratap

> > > > > > (Pratap Bhatt)

> > > > > >

> > > > > > ------------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > --

> > > > --

> > > > > > Dear seeker of permanent truths,

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The physical, subtle and causal Truths are found by two

> > > methods

> > > > > viz.

> > > > > > either Inductive or Deductive. Inductive methods are

> normally

> > > > > > applied in physical sciences and scientific findings go

on

> > > > > changing.

> > > > > > Newtonian Physics of inert matter has vastly changed as

> > matter

> > > > is

> > > > > > now having unsuspected vitality. Even steel feels

fatigue.

> > > > Science

> > > > > > once said Earth is static and Sun is moving, now Sceince

> has

> > > > > > accepted Sun is stationary and earth is moving. Biology

is

> > > > > changing

> > > > > > every day.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The permanent truths found through deductive methods

known

> to

> > > > > human

> > > > > > soul (apriori knowledge) contained in Vedas, Bhagavd

Gita

> and

> > > > > > Upanishads have been challenged, criticised and even

people

> > > like

> > > > > > great materialists Charvakas said it was going back to

the

> > > > ancient

> > > > > > period. BUT till date not proved wrong even by the great

> > > > > scientists

> > > > > > of any age-past and present. On the contrary even Newton,

> > > > Einstein

> > > > > > and many others confirrmed about the existence of Supreme

> > > > Reality.

> > > > > > Einstein even put a board outside his laboratory " Thou

art

> > > > That " .

> > > > > > and said God does not play dice.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Deductive method is based on Metaphysics (beyond

> > > Physics/matter)

> > > > > > which Bhagavd Gita says is the supreme science. The rsis

> and

> > > > > munnies

> > > > > > (metaphysicists and wandering sages)of yore got these

> > > permanent

> > > > > > truths through their omniscient souls. Vedic truths in

> regard

> > > to

> > > > > > matter are now being proved even in the laboratory of

> > > scientists

> > > > > > relating to atom, sub atomic particles, physical

sciences.

> > But

> > > > > > truths relating to subtle matters like subtle divine

> Nature,

> > > > > > location of subtle instruments in human body like Vivek

> > (power

> > > > of

> > > > > > discernment, Ego, Buddhi (intellect), manas (inward

looking

> > > > mind),

> > > > > > physical scientist can never find. They only know about

> > > > maaterial

> > > > > > instruments in the human body like senses, sense organs

> etc.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > If truths contained in Vedas and Bhagavad Gita are to be

> > > > accepted

> > > > > on

> > > > > > blind faith, it is better not to accept and one should

> > > continue

> > > > > > facing material happiness or sorrows in this vast

turbulent

> > > sea

> > > > of

> > > > > > matter. But one who is convinced of the much higher

> deductive

> > > > > > methods of finding truths, will accept Bhagavad Gita and

> > Vedas

> > > > as

> > > > > > Shruti - revealed through the human soul which is subtle

> > > > particle

> > > > > of

> > > > > > the Supreme Soul (Parmatma).

> > > > > > with kind regards,

> > > > > >

> > > > > > P.K.Sabhlok

> > > > > >

> > > > > > ------------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > --

> > > > --

> > > > > -

> > > > > > Dear TKach.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I think the Moderator would/may respond to this one

query.

> > > > Staying

> > > > > > with the group's exchanges so far, would have already

shed

> > > some

> > > > > > light on these Truths.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > To me as a sadhak; A real " believer's " is he whose

> conviction

> > > is

> > > > > > fully realised and becomes one with it. It is not about

> > blind

> > > > > > faith.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Even the scientist person like Newton in a question of

him

> > > being

> > > > > the

> > > > > > greatest person, came out stating that " people say I

know

> so

> > > so

> > > > > > much; but in fact my knowledge is just like an atom of

> dust

> > at

> > > > the

> > > > > > sea-shore...while I have so much to gain the

> knowledge ... " .

> > > The

> > > > > > Science or seeking scientific reasons being only or

> related

> > to

> > > > > > physics or a form and being limited - cannot in anyway

> define

> > > > the

> > > > > > omni-present and all-prevading GOD.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > This subject is of HEART before the BRAIN.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Best Regards

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Kishin Chandiramani

> > > > > >

> > > > > > ------------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > --

> > > > --

> > > > > --

> > > > > > Dear Sadak,

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Geetha starts, " EITHI UPANATHSHU " . That means Geetha is

> juice

> > > of

> > > > > > Upanashids/Vedas.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > From my personal view the Geetha is Do`s and Dont`s.

Rules

> > > laid

> > > > to

> > > > > > guide one from human to divinity. Once human level

raises

> to

> > > > > > divinity, he becomes realized in conscience level.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > If one believes Geetha and strictly PRACTICES what

Krishna

> > > says,

> > > > > > that person becomes " Gunaa Theethan " , as Bagavan himself

> > said.

> > > > The

> > > > > > question any one of you can ask yourself, " Am I

practicing

> > > basic

> > > > > > princlples of Geetha, speaking truth (alignment of

thought,

> > > word

> > > > > and

> > > > > > deed at the conscience level), seeing Bagavan (God

> > > Consciousness)

> > > > > in

> > > > > > all living creatures, getting up early in morning and

> atleast

> > > > > > thinking of Bagavan, controling senses - tongue in eating

> > > > (Bagavan

> > > > > > said in Geetha how Gunas affect a person due to food)

and

> in

> > > > > talking

> > > > > > (Not causing the least pain by words spoken), Bagavan

> > > > > says, " Indriya

> > > > > > (Organs of actions) control. Do we do this?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > After this comes Bagavan saying, " Kama yeshu- Krodha

yeshu

> > > etc " .

> > > > > > From desire comes anger, from anger comes greed etc.

> Simply

> > > by

> > > > > > understanding these words through vivek (discriminative

> > > faculty)

> > > > > one

> > > > > > can become calms and experience Ananda (it is bliss,

with

> no

> > > > > > opposite, it is not happiness). The opposity of

Happiness

> is

> > > > > > sorrow, such as health and sickess, so on. But for Ananda

> > > there

> > > > is

> > > > > > no opposite. Some people just by reading Bagavath Geetha

> feel

> > > > > happy,

> > > > > > then what to speak of application in one's life; Imagine

> the

> > > > glory.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Coming to scientific explanation, Geetha says, " Prana,

> Samana

> > > > etc "

> > > > > 5

> > > > > > pranas, which scientist accepts 5 elements of air we

> breath.

> > > > Over

> > > > > > night kept food forments and produces certain chemical

> change

> > > > next

> > > > > > day says Geetha. Scientist say food kept in store for a

> night

> > > > and

> > > > > > used next day causes surge in immune system. But Geetha

has

> > > gone

> > > > > > much deeper than scientist by says how our brain is

> affected.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > There is everything in Geetha for the whole creation.

But

> one

> > > > does

> > > > > > not make the effort to read and deeply contemplate on

> hidden

> > > > > truths.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Now coming to Sri Krishna: HE had 108 Sidhis, able to

lift

> > > > > mountain,

> > > > > > kill demons, bring back the dead son of HIS Guru

Sandipan`s

> > > dead

> > > > > son

> > > > > > to life. HIS teaching gives more insight about human way

of

> > > > living

> > > > > > that could elevate to Moksha. In HIS life time were

there

> any

> > > > > > mistakes? HE is therefore believed by saints as " Jagath

> > GURU " .

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Sri Krishna says, that one needs to under go several

birth

> to

> > > > > start

> > > > > > to say " Om Namo Narayanaya " . So the ones who do not

> believe

> > in

> > > > HIM

> > > > > > is our brothers/sisters are on the way striving to reach

> that

> > > > > level.

> > > > > > Therefore there should be no dislike/hatred to be shown

to

> > any

> > > > > > persons, as Sri Krishna says, " See ME in all creation " .

One

> > > may

> > > > > > believe in Geetha but if one should have even in

conscience

> > > > level

> > > > > a

> > > > > > small dislike on the person who disbelieves Sri Krishna/

> > > Geetha,

> > > > > > then such a person is not true Visnavite.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > B.Sathyanarayan

> > > > > > ------------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > --

> > > > -

> > > > > >

> > > > > > , " sadhak_insight "

> > > > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Haribol!!

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Can anyone explain why we should believe in the Gita

or

> for

> > > > that

> > > > > > > matter the Vedas?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I've been studying Bhagavad Gita for some time, and I

> > > believe

> > > > > > everything

> > > > > > > that is there is the absolute truth, but how do you

> explain

> > > to

> > > > > > someone

> > > > > > > else that this is the truth? It is not enough to

say " it

> > > comes

> > > > > from

> > > > > > > Krsna " " just accept Krsna " . It has to be a more

> scientific

> > > and

> > > > > > thorough

> > > > > > > explanation, do you know what I mean?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I'd like to be able to explain to someone why this is

the

> > > > truth,

> > > > > > how do

> > > > > > > we know the real source !

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Is there anything in the Gita that provides scientific

> > view /

> > > > > > > explanation or anything that addresses the Origin of

the

> > > > Vedas /

> > > > > > Gita ?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Hare Krsna!! Thanks.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Daniel Tkach

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > FROM THE MODERATOR

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES:

> > > > > > > The Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify

> their

> > > > doubts

> > > > > > > related to Gitaji shlokas. To ensure that both the

> > questions

> > > > and

> > > > > > the

> > > > > > > responses are focused, pointed and brief, the

guidelines

> > for

> > > > > Gita-

> > > > > > Talk

> > > > > > > discussions are being modified and are being sent to

you.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > The following are the guidelines for Gita-Talk

> discussions.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > GUIDELINES FOR POSTING A QUESTION:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > 1. The group is focused on the Holy Gitaji and

clarifying

> > > any

> > > > > > doubts,

> > > > > > > therefore only questions that pertain to Gitaji will be

> > > posted

> > > > > in

> > > > > > the

> > > > > > > future.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > 2. Please restrict the number of questions asked to

only

> > one

> > > > at

> > > > > a

> > > > > > time.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > 3. Making reference of Gitaji shloka is compulsory - at

> > > least

> > > > > once

> > > > > > in

> > > > > > > the question.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > 4. Please be specific with the question, relating the

> > > practical

> > > > > > > difficulties being faced by the Sadhak. Specifics

around,

> > > > where

> > > > > is

> > > > > > the

> > > > > > > sadhak facing obstacles in his spiritual journey, in

the

> > > > > teachings

> > > > > > of

> > > > > > > Geetaji, in principles laid down by Swamiji or other

> > > Mahatamas

> > > > > are

> > > > > > > highly recommended to be included.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > 5. General questions will not be considered for future

> > > posting.

> > > > > > > e.g. " suicide " " solving world hunger " etc.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > GUIDELINES FOR POSTING A RESPONSE:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > 1. The group is focused on the Holy Gitaji, therefore,

> only

> > > > > > responses

> > > > > > > which further clarify the understanding of Gitaji,

will

> be

> > > > > posted.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > 2. Making reference of Gitaji shloka is highly

> encouraged -

> > > at

> > > > > > least

> > > > > > > once in the response. Wherever possible, please quote

> > > Gitaji

> > > > or

> > > > > > other

> > > > > > > scriptures to substantiate your response.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > 3. Please be as concise and to the point as possible,

> > > > respecting

> > > > > > > sadhaka's time. Under no circustance the answer should

> > > exceed

> > > > > say

> > > > > > one

> > > > > > > page at the most (500 words or so).

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > 4. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs

> etc.

> > to

> > > > the

> > > > > > > extent that they further help in understanding the Gita

> > > shlokas

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand

only.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or

> other

> > > > > > > organizations.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > 7. Complete reproduction of texts from any book is

> strongly

> > > > > > > discouraged, however references may be made of the

book

> or

> > > > > author

> > > > > > (but

> > > > > > > not links to other sites).

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > 8. Kindly do not include your personal information

such

> as

> > > > phone

> > > > > > > number, address etc.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > 9. Please do not address the response to a particular

> > > > individual

> > > > > > since

> > > > > > > the message is going to the entire group.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > 10. Due to the large readership, only those responses

> will

> > > be

> > > > > > posted

> > > > > > > which are in line with the general philosophy of taking

> > > Shrimad

> > > > > > > Bhagavad Gita as the reference.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > 11. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the

posting,

> if

> > > > > > content is

> > > > > > > unclear for distribution or not directly related to the

> > > > question

> > > > > > being

> > > > > > > asked.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > 12. Please respond taking into consideration the

novices,

> > > > youth,

> > > > > > > westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the

use

> of

> > > > only

> > > > > > > Sanskrit words, rather provide the English word with

> > Sanskrit

> > > > > > > bracketed wherever possible.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > MODERATOR

> > > > > > > Ram Ram

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

June 30, 2008

Hari Om

Re Sadhak Daniel's Query no 5 & 6

ANY REFERENCE IN GITA ADDRESSING THE ORIGIN OF VEDAS/ GITA

(SCIENTIFIC OR ANYTHING) ?

First I will address Q no 6

Basically you must understand that Vedas are part of " Sanatan

Dharma " – which means eternal/beginning less principles or spiritual

truths or universal laws. Other names for Dharma can be

Righteousness or that which upholds or natural tendencies or one's

DUTY. Hence Vedas are as old as humanity. The day humans were born

the Vedas were awaiting them, because human beings are a special

form of life. They are better than all other forms of life. They

have certain norms to follow. They have certain special

capabilities. They have certain aims and aspirations. They are born

to perform certain duties. Vedas comprise the description of our

duties, our objective, our capabilities, our rights, our

obligations. Hence Vedas are as old as mankind.

It is as natural as our getting employment in some company, the

table, chair, pen, equipment, stationary, our role, our duties, and

the job to be performed by us are all awaiting us.

JUST AS: Before a child is born, there is already nourishment

prepared and waiting in the mother's breasts. SIMILARLY : Before

the first human beings were born the Vedas were awaiting them -

along with air, water, food, right environment for survival, Sun,

Moon, fire, ether, etc .

Sanatan Dharma, being the Universal principles for the smooth

functioning of this Universe, are Eternal principles and they do not

have one particular founder. Rather no one has claimed to be it's

founder.

Gita on the other hand is the essence of the principles of Vedas and

Upanishads. The principles embodied in Gita are essentially the

principles of Vedas and Upanishads - restricted in size and picked

up judiciously by God to achieve a particular purpose. Vedas are

stated to be the " breaths " of God. Upanishads are the essence of the

Vedas, that were revelations that sages and rishis received in

their deep meditative states. Whereas Gita is " voice " of God . It

was spoken by Lord Krishna during " TRETA YUGA " at the time of

Mahabharat War to Arjuna. Gita was given the shape of a book by

Rishi Ved Vyasa- who was grand father of Arjuna. And who was present

at the time of Mahabharat War. At many places in Gita , the God has

stated that he taught the the principles say of Karma Yoga to

various people in the past including to SUN.

At the beginning of Chapter 4, He told Arjuna that this " eternal "

Karma Yoga was taught by Him first to SUN, then Sun taught this to

his son Vaivasvat Manu. Manu then taught this Karma Yoga to his son

Ikshvaaku. (Gita 4:1). He also stated that with the time passing the

principles of Karma Yoga had become almost extinct / forgotten.

(Gita 4:2) Arjuna even asked God as to how He could have taught Sun

the principles of Gita, to which God replied. (Gita 4 : 4 ,4:5 )

He also stated that by practicing the principles stated by Him, in

the past many people like Janak etc.had attained Liberation. (Gita

3:20).

It is very clear then that Vedas, and the principles of Gita are as

old as humanity.

I will not touch upon the " scientific " part of the question now

having addressed the same under Q no 2. I agree with other Saadhaks

who also responded to your queries that it is futile to bring the

subject of " science " into matters of belief.

Q NO 5 - HOW DO WE KNOW THE REAL SOURCE OF GITA?

How do we " know " the real source of Gita? The " how " part is like

asking... how do we know that butter is in the milk or fire is in a

log of wood. The principles of Gita are as old as " existence

itself " of Sun or rather older than Sun. Just as the Law of gravity

existed even before Newton discovered it. The person who revealed

Gita is God Himself who is beyond knowledge. Certain things in life

are matter of " belief/acceptance " purely because they are beyond the

comprehension of the limited human mind and it's capacity to know,

just as our current limited capacity to know so many things, such as

the real source of Sun, Moon and much more.

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

--------------------------------

, " sadhak_insight "

<sadhak_insight wrote:

>

> Loving Divine,

> Pranam.

> While reading Gitaji, Arjun being a case study object, I also

> understood the following evolution. I thought it might b

beneficial:

> * Arjun is extrovert when he asks Lord to take his chariot in the

> middle to see who all have gathered here to fight (BG 1:21). He's

> looking at others & not towards himself (BG 1:26-27).

>

> Like Arjun we are also extrovert when we first study the Bhagwat

> Gita. We notice external / gross world - history, politics,

> warfare, society, etc. No 1 has taught us to look within, so we

take

> its literal meaning & may find it being illogical, impractical,

not

> relevant to me or present age of so called modern science. We may

> reject it saying it's not helpful to mankind, Gitaji is just

written

> by primitive man for primitive community. But it isn't true! In

> general, majority of us are extoverts in our behavior, we like to

> find faults in others, blame others but we rarely look within!

>

> * When we continue studying /implementing (swaadhyaay) Gitaji as

> Lord said, it starts taking us in to deeper level. Arjun wants to

> see who all have gathered here to fight. He's looking at others,

all

> around him, but excludes himself. His eyes, ears, etc. are

pointed

> outwards - 1 finger pointing at others but forgot that three are

> pointing at him. Arjun isn't facing the present moment, he's in

his

> illusory world so he gives all kinds of reasons for why he

shouldn't

> fight (BG 1:40-45). Lord also tells him that when you all

overcome

> these illusion/delusion/imagination, you will attain the supreme

> peace (BG 2:53). Arjun has been a war hero/great archer, blessed

> with powerful war weapons by gods; so the issue isn't at gross

> level, it is at the subtle level, mental problem ! Slowly while

> talking to his friend Krishna, after giving all extroverted

reasons,

> he comes to realize his own problem. Now he turns within & says

> that I am confused, I am your disciple, please guide me. So from

> rest of the army, he comes to himself, from many to one, from

others

> to I, extrovert to introvert, to the center of the problem. He

> understands his mental process & accepts that there's a problem.

> He's now into the field of psychology. Krishna challenges his

> mental process by presenting various logic including what others

> will say about him & would he be able to live withit (BG 2:31-36)?

> Eventually, Arjun develops little better understanding & he agrees

> to study his mind at deeper level with Krishna's help. He asks

> Krishna that mind is like restless wind, how can I control (BG

> 6:34)? Lord helps him analyze various behavior patterns based on

> three gunas (BG Chpt 17). But, Lord's teaching is focused on

taking

> Arjun beyond 3 gunas - satva, rajas, tamas (BG 2:45). Upon

asking,

> Lord continues to teach various aspects of mind, what affects it,

> how it behaves in cetain situations, & how he can control it.

> Eventually, Arjun becomes ready to go beyond mind.

>

> Initially, we are extroverts, slowly we start looking within &

> understand that the battle field is nothing but our own mental war

> between good-bad qualities, our stuggle to overcome our bad

habits.

> We analyze our behaviour & apply the techniques shown by the

Lord.

> Now we want to go beyond mind.

>

> * Once we understand the workings of the mind, like Arjun, we are

> ready to understand more subtle aspects. E.g., at grosser level,

> Lord talks about action (karma), devotion (bhakti) & knowledge

> (gyaan). The working of our senses, seen as eyes, seeing, ears

> hearing and mouth talking, tongue tasting and skin feeling, nose

> smelling, etc, now gets converted into the working of earth,

water,

> fire, air and space made them work the way they did -

> nature /prakriti is responsible for their working (BG 3:27).

Later,

> at further deeper level we realize that it is all the play of

three

> cosmic elements - light, sound & vibration. Those who are looking

> for scientific proof may study science & can confirm this. But

> something greater exist under whose control these three elements

are

> working! Lord talks about Him being all pervading pranav / Om

> sound, feeling aliveness of His creation due to its vibration, &

> light that lits Sun, moon, stars & gives sight to our eyes, etc.

At

> deeper level, studying these three aspects within us we understand

> that the eyes we thought are seeing is not true, the ears that

hear

> and mouth that creates sound is not the case, the skin that feels

is

> no longer true! There has to be the greater force working behind

> all!

>

> * In Vibhutiyoga (Chpt 10), Lord really prepares Arjun to go

beyond

> His creation. And in Vishwarupdarshanyoga (Chpt 11) Lord shows Him

> His cosmic form. We've to use some words, like form, to

communicate

> as there's no phyiscal body/thing existing controlling this

> universe. It is the subtlest of all, in Vedas/Upanishads/Gitaji

the

> word used to describe IT is Brahman, in English we translate IT as

> awareness or consciousness or cosmic mind but Brahman carries more

> subtle meaning than these English words. Arjun transcends his own

> mind & perceives the cosmic mind.

>

> I believe, we too can eventually transcend our mind & reach the

> cosmic mind if we continue to implement Lord's teachings in our

> life. It doesn't help us looking at others - who is doing what,

> rather studying our own self & correcting our mistakes sure will

> help us bring that change. So Gitaji can take one from extrovert

> attitude to introvert, from individual mind to cosmic

consciousness,

> & transand beyond mind, which science has yet to come up with.

> Three parts of atoms - netron, proton, electorn, described by

> science, I insist to those who want scientific proof, to study

their

> characteristics & I am sure people will conclude that three parts

> are nothing but the three lower gunas - sattve, tamas & rajas,

> described by Lord. And Lord is saying He is beyond them!

>

> Lord also says that when one reaches this highest

state/liberation,

> one is not bound by any samskaras. To this person, the scriptural

> books carry no meaning as books are also limiting in their words

> describing infinite Brahman! Ultimatly, one must transcend these

> scriptures also as God / The Truth / Conciousness / Cosmic Soul,

> whatever you want to call it, is beyond books (BG 2:46)! In

> otherwords, talking, reading, implementing/acting etc. are

limiting

> the existance of God but until one realizes it, one must continue

to

> practice. Lord continues to say that after realizing it, one must

> also help others, who are willing, to transcend their mind (BG

18:67-

> 71).

>

> Thanks to all who contributed to the questions asked by Danielji,

I

> really enjoyed them. Thanks to moderatorji also for facilitating

it.

>

> Hope this adds some value.

> humble regards

> always at Thy Holy Feet

>

> Manjula Patel

>

> Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

>

> This verse 2:12(none of us were never non-existent....) is very

> essence of Gita along with 2:16 (That which IS, never ceases to be

> and that which is NOT, never comes into Being and the seers know

> this Truth).

>

> The Lord has pointed to our true identity which has to be other

than

> body-mind-intellect-ego and things we know. Everything known

through

> mind is perishable so we cannot be those. We have to be The One

> knower though unknowable by our own instrument! What a Divine

> Mystery! But the good news is we can realize it.

>

> The reality of the world including all of us sentients and

> insentients lies in its ever Beingness in whatever names and forms

> they may appear, in whatver times and places they appear. Names-

> forms are individual existences of ONE Absolute Existence just as

> waves are constantly arising and broken down again and again but

> water(Ocean) cannot be non-existent. Reality of each wave is 100%

> Ocean(one touches Ocean when one touches waves). Thus Ocean has

> Being while waves have existences relative to Ocean.

>

> Similarly Lord says we all as that Absolute Being like an Ocean,

> were always here(or everywhere, and nowhere, in otherword not

> located in space). However we continue to appear and disappear as

> separate body-minds separated only by a fabric of space and time

> (maya)! It is easy to see waves-ocean analogy here, but the Being

> that " we are " cannot be seen or captured by mind, our only

> instrument of cognition, seems to be our difficulty.

>

> Nevertheless That Being is our experience right now as

> Consciousness. Aren't we conscious of our being? We cannot show /

> produce an evidence of our being as some thing perceived by mind

> like things of the world, but we intuitively know we ARE and hence

> it is Self-Evident Self. We just know we ARE and it is very unique

> Experience unlike all other experiences and also our the most

> CERTAIN Experience by which we can validate all other fleeting

> experiences! This Experience is the Subject Knowing Itself by

Itself

> for Itself (Apperception), which is SUBJECTIVITY IN ITSELF! It is

> not Subject relative to objects, it is the total absence of all

> objectivity!

>

> Let us realize that through the study of Gita by all means

> indicated at our disposals!

> Namaskars.

>

> Pratap Bhatt

> -------------------------------

> We are few of the lucky ones out of millions to be able to get

> exposed to the divine Gita and taste its nectar. The Holy Gita

came

> from the divine lips of The God - Lord Krishna Himself. No wonder

> Gita speaks to every human - whether uneducated or well-educated,

> and provides solace. I am sure that one will be able to find

> answers, which are beyond the scope of science, and comes closer

to

> divinity. A world of Gita will be a world glowing with divine

> happiness.

>

> Hare Ram Hare Krishna

>

> SRIKANTH MOHAN KETHU

>

> --------------------------------

>

> Science and belief are 2 different things, please read 'The God

> Delusion' to clarify this point.

>

> We first need to ask yourself why we or anyone needs to believe in

> anything?

> Belief is a statement of unsurity, e.g. I believe my name is ....

> states that I don't really know, or am unsure. Further when we

are

> unsure we ask others, and if we trust them enough to follow their

> advice we need to have faith in that person. So basically if you

> say I believe in krishna etc you are saying you are unsure.

> And when religious persons get together to share their beliefs

they

> are basically sharing their uncertainties.

>

> Hinduism is a science as it has a rationale and methodology. It

is

> investigative in nature e.g. the 1st sutra of 'vedant sutra' as we

> all know, states, 'and now an investigation into the nature of

> bramhan!' and not 'you must believe to be saved, ...' baloney we

> commonly find in religions. Similarly yoga sutras are involved in

> investigation into the nature of mind, cognition, consciousness

etc

> The language of eternal truths is totally different to that of

> religions. Get a copy of Yoga Sutras and note and list the type

of

> vocabulary used.

>

> E.g. 'Yoga is the removal of modification of consciousness, so we

> can perceive things in their true state' is a clear statement of

the

> aims and objectives and rational.

>

> Words such as cognition, perception, deduction, inference, mind,

> conciousness, self, ego, substance, nature, attributes,

> discrimination etc show the form of ideas, thinking being followed

> here,

>

> e.g. Because name and effect follow from perception - kanada

sutras

> II-19

> The language used in Hindu scriptures is akin to philosophy.

> Take a look at 'The Tao of Physics by Fritzjof Capra'

> Schrodinger said 'My Whole philosophy of life is based upon

Vedanta'

>

> When you stop believing is when you truly know, conversely when

you

> know , you don't need to believe, you dont have to explain to

anyone

> and you must not be arrogant in thinking you have something

superior.

>

> Learn to meditate, this is Hinduism's greatest gift to the world.

>

> Ravi Bakhshi

>

> , " sadhak_insight "

> <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> >

> > Hari Om

> >

> > Re Saadhak Daniel's Queries – Reply to Q no 4

> >

> > HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN TO SOMEONE THAT WHATEVER IS EXPLAINED IN

GITA

> IS

> > TRUTHFUL ?

> >

> > At the outset, you must ensure that your making efforts to

> convince

> > others do not lead to your incurring a " sin " within the meaning

of

> > Gita 18 : 67 !

> >

> > In Gita 18 : 67 - Lord Krishna forbids Arjuna, to unfold the

> > supreme secret gospel, the secret of all the other secrets, as

> > mentioned in the preceding verse - 18:66 - to those who are

> > undeserving. Lord said - " This is never to be mentioned by you,

to

> > anyone who does not perform any austerities, nor has any

devotion,

> > nor who is unwilling to hear, nor he who finds fault with Me. " !

> >

> > Once you have ensured that based on these four criteria, the

> person

> > is found to be deserving, you can make efforts to explain to

him.

> > Your such efforts then will fall into the scope of Gita 18 : 68

> > which says - " He who, with supreme devotion to Me teaches this

> > supreme secret to My devotees, shall doubtless, come to Me

alone.

> > There is no doubt about it " . In the next verse 18:69 He says-

> " There

> > is, none among men who does more loving service to Me than he:

nor

> > shall there be, another on earth, dearer to Me than him " These

2

> > verses e.g. 18: 68 and 18:69 as well as 18:67 are with reference

> to

> > 18 : 66 only.

> >

> > Thereafter God says in 18:70 – " And, he who contemplates this

> sacred

> > dialogue of ours, he shall be worshipping Me, through the

> sacrifice

> > (yajna) of knowledge (wisdom) - such is my conviction " ! Verse

> > 18:70 is with reference to Gita as a whole.

> >

> > You yourself stated that you are studying Gita and you believe

> that

> > whatever is stated there in is truth. Find out the reasons of

your

> > belief and your conviction and use them to convince others. You

> must

> > have got enough clues from material shared so far about this

> sacred

> > text. Many learned Saadhaks have participated in this

discussion

> so

> > far. From each participation you can draw gems. Have belief.

Have

> > courage and go ahead fearlessly and perform " Jnana Yajna "

> > (Selflessly sharing the Divine Knowledge and Wisdom " .

> >

> > Here I must state that generally there is no benefit in

insisting

> > for anything too much. Basically we must understand that all are

> > children of God, irrespective of their beliefs/present

> > status/willingness and convictions. There are systems and laws

> > already prevailing in the world – Laws of Mother Nature – that

are

> > ceaselessly focused to attract and magnetically pull all of us

> > towards the truth. We can only become humble mediums under Gita

> > 18:70, if we are fully confident and fully clear about what we

are

> > talking.. Then it becomes immaterial whether we have been

> successful

> > in our endeavour or not. You cannot satisfy any body on this

earth

> > if he does not want to get satisfied. To get convinced is a

matter

> > of acceptance. As I told earlier,there are systems and laws of

> > Mother Nature already operating. You must also respect those

laws

> of

> > Mother Nature. Ultimately, a person gets attracted to religion

> only

> > when there is something " fiercely burning inside him " – to

quote

> > Brother Mike Keenoor who spoke from his soul really, while

> replying

> > to another question posed in this group . Notice also Brother

> Mike's

> > reply to your query yesterday. He said in his opening remarks ---

> > " A person who I had made acquaintance with under strange

> > circumstances , one day he said …………. " . Now what these types

> > of " strange circumstances " indicate? They indicate that laws of

> > Mother Nature are operating in the world consistently to draw

all

> > of us towards the truth, towards the reality, towards the God.

> > Everything which happens in our lives – if we care to analyse-

> will

> > invariably indicate to us that such laws are ceaselessly

> operating.

> >

> > Hence we can afford to be rather careful and patient in our

> > endeavours. You must appreciate that real curiosity, is not

> aroused

> > in any man so long a man does not get disenchanted with mundane

> > affairs, and does not become dispassionate. When he becomes

> > restless, in the mundane maze, to find out the way, he has a

heart

> > to heart talk with a person, from whom he expects right

guidance.

> > When a cow feeds a calf with her milk, the more hungry the calf

> is,

> > with more force he pulls the udders and the entire milk of the

cow

> > comes gushing to the mother cow's udders, from other areas.

> >

> > We should however know that in today's world, more often than

not,

> > our over insistence may prove counter productive also

> particularly,

> > if we ourselves are not fully convinced or certain about

anything

> > and then we may be doing a disservice and may be achieving an

> > opposite result. That we must never do. Truth has its own power.

> > Water makes it's own way. If we are solid in our convictions and

> > faith and if the other is willing – then there is nothing wrong

in

> > doing him this service. We will then please our father. We will

> then

> > become the dearest to the God - Gita 18:69.

> >

> > Jai Shree Krishna

> >

> > Vyas N B

> > -----------------------------

Dear

> > Sadhaks,

> >

> > Mr.Daniel req: Scientific findings in Geetha.

> >

> > Atom was said indivisable. Later said protron, nutron,electron.

> > Again science is going to say the three are also having 6 parts

in

> > each. Again much later each part is having 3 micro atoms. Each

of

> > these micro atom has got violet coloured super micro atoms which

> > cannot be measured. Human has got 6 DNA. Each DNA are having 6

> > parts. Each part has 3 microzomes which are cause for human body

> > function- age, moods, charactors, organ functional period etc.

> This

> > DNA theory is in web site and approved science. Regarding atom,

> > science now saying protron can be divided.

> >

> > Read Geetha very carefully these are all stated in it.

> >

> > Given the exact date of birth, time, place of birth, one can

find

> > out what you are and what you were. This science is said in

Kapila

> > Geetha.

> >

> > There was Noah Arc (ship) built by Noah when GOD said from space

> > that there is going to be biggest tsunami (Maha pralaya), so

Noah

> > should go in ship along with species of animals. Here in Hindu

> > purana A saint heard voice from space mahapralaya is coming,

build

> a

> > ship and load species of animal and food. GOD (voice) said , " I

> will

> > take you to Meru mountain during floods. It did happen where Sri

> > Vishnu took avathar of big fish and dragged the ship to Meru.

> Voice

> > from space called " ASARIR "

> >

> > Old testament says the world is square. Hinduism says 4 square

> > within a square is called 4 yugas life span of earth.

> >

> > Jesus said when slapped show the other cheek. Hinduism says

> clearly,

> > if a person slaps someone, that person is doing good, as the

> > person`s account is getting credited with the sin transfered

from

> > the one being slapped. So showing another cheek further reduces

> the

> > sin of the one getting beaten. Christ endured even during

> > crucification and attained an astral body. This is also said in

> > Geetha

> >

> > Now there is scientific study on so many things that are already

> in

> > Vedas and Geetha. Person's Aura, Child learning even in Womb

and

> > attaining divinity (e.g. Prahlad), Funnel systems of human

scienve

> > versus conducive environments created for rebirth; Black Hole

> > theory versus Krishna taking Arjuna to the Worlds beyond...past

> > black hole to the land of Vaikunth.

> >

> > In Geetha Bagavan spoke of other worlds 2X7 worlds i.e. 14

> worlds..

> > Read today's paper " The Hindu " , where it states that scientists

> are

> > finding earth similar to ours.

> >

> > Geetha reveals to us about, " Stitha Pragnyan " . Scientist say 16

> > thousands billion cells in human brain capable of controlling

> > anything on earth when all the cells are focused to one point

and

> > used. Normally we use only a fraction of these cells that

> a " Stitha

> > Pragnyan " does.

> >

> > In Geetha--- It is said there are 84 Lac (8.4 milion) living

> > species. It addresses distances of planets from earth. Science

is

> > now only discovering these.

> >

> > God (Bagavan) said, " I am in everything, but I am not that " . See

> > nature and think of the creator. See ocean, think of creator.

See

> an

> > angry person, think of the creator, WHO created the diverse

people

> > and creatures ? SO on.

> >

> > God (Bagavan) showed His Universal Form (Viswaroop) to Arjuna.

> > Viswam (whole creation) is His form. Contemplating on it, one

can

> > think whether seed came first or tree came first. Can science

> > answer? But Hindu scriptures has answers to these.

> >

> > Earth goes by Maha Pralaya (water), water eaten away by maha

> > pralayagni (fire), fire disappers by maha Vayu (great winds),

> winds

> > vanishes in avakthiyam (space), space takes abode in Paramathuma

> > (God)

> >

> > From where does--- Jackal get his cunningness, a 14 year boy

> > effortlessly plays musically instrument, rich man turns poor and

> > poor turns rich, a man clinicaly totally fit but from where the

> > tumor started, a chain smoker never gets cancer, but a healthy

man

> > gets, the ecological imbalances, what causes untold disasters,

etc

> > all such answers are there in the Gita. God (Bagavan) in Geetha

> > reveals to us Prakurthi (Nature and Creation). Defenition is

there

> > in the scriptures. There is everything in Geetha, nothing is

left

> > incomplete, not addressed or left out. But each word has to be

> > refered from vedas/upanashids etc

> >

> > H2O is water. Hydrogen and Oxygen says science. But water has 6

> > elements. Water taken in palm and drunk 6 times saying, "

Pranaya

> > Swaha, Appanaya swaha, Dynaya Swaha, etc ending Bramaneya

Swaha',

> > results in smooth and effective functioning of the pulmonary

> system.

> > Science is yet to do findings on this.

> >

> > In Gyana Marg in Geetha Bagavan says that yogi by constant

> spiritual

> > practice (sadhana) can activate charkras and send power from

> > mooladhara through Susuba Naadi (a nerve in spinal cord) to

> kapalam

> > (skull) and through a very small opening sends himself (athman)

to

> > heavens reaching ME. Science is now finding a special nerve that

> is

> > going from bottom of spinal cord to the skull is performing

> > electrical and magnetic energies at differant levels. But

> scientist

> > yet have to find out how this actually functions? Bagavan said

> this

> > in Geetha but to know more about such details about this nervous

> > system, bagavan refers one has to read Patanjali Yoga a scrip

> > written by saint Patanjali.

> >

> > There is so much more... there is no end to what is already in

the

> > Vedas, Upanishads and Geetha.

> >

> > Namaste.

> >

> > B.Sathyanarayan

> >

> > ------------------------------

> > Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

> >

> > Few more beautiful responses from Sadhakas inspired me to build

on

> > some of views about Gita being scientific or not. It doesn't

> matter

> > really as it is said here, it is beyond Science and all other

> > knowledge desciplines and yet supporting all knowledge.

> >

> > Scientific knowledge is limited as it is based on observations

of

> > objects outside. It has never studied the real Observer who

makes

> > observations possible. It cannot, because the Observer is not an

> > object of perception and conception like all scientific studies

> > require. Science can give only an empirical knowledge based on

> > observations by a scientist to be confirmed by many others.

> >

> > Vedanta says all such knowledge desciplines have relative values

> but

> > in reality they are Avidya(nescience or paravidya). The only

Vidya

> > (knowledge) is that of Knowingness-Consciousness Itself by which

> we

> > know all things or nothing. I mean even ignorance needs this

> > Consciousness to shine it to be able to say " I don't know " .

> >

> > No one can ever know " objects in themselves " . We take our sense

> > perceptions and subsequent conceptions by mind, to be the

objects

> > external to us as science does which is not true.

> >

> > Our experience of objects is one of being aware of thought-

> feelings

> > triggered by objects. Our reality, as Naga Narayanaji put it, is

> > Being THAT, the Absolute! Gitaji has such pointers throughout

the

> > chapters. In my view, it is better understood in the Upanisadic

> > context to really benefit.

> >

> > Namaskaras, Pratap

> > (Pratap Bhatt)

> > ------------------------------

> >

> > Best way of knowing the truth is to experience the truth.

> > If it transforms you increasing your happiness level then it is

> the

> > truth. No need for believing straightaway. Experience it

first.

> >

> > The questions like the origin of Vedas / scientific explanations

> can

> > be important at some level but are irrelevant. Wisdom/ the truth

> is

> > important.

> >

> > Wisdom is the set of rules of life, which govern us.

> >

> > Sushil Jain

> > --------------------------------

-

> >

> > Sri Vyas ji,

> >

> > Jai Sri Krishna,

> >

> > I have been reading GEETA JI recently and with a desire to know

> > more, have joined this group. Your explainations about science

and

> > Geeta ji has been very clear and I am deeply moved by it.

> >

> > Pranam to you and your knowledge,

> >

> > Ravi Shahi

> >

> > --------------------------------

-

> > , " sadhak_insight "

> > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Hari Om

> > >

> > > Re Saadhak Daniel's Queries- Reply to Q no 3

> > >

> > > WHY WE SHOULD BELIEVE IN GITA / VEDAS ?

> > >

> > > A really good question. The best among the 6 questions. Many

> > > powerful reasons can be given. However I shall give one reason

> > only.

> > > May be that clicks too. The briefest answer is " YOU SHOULD

> > BELIEVE

> > > IN GITA/VEDAS TO SATISFY ALL OF YOUR DESIRES –

CONCLUSIVELY " ! !

> > >

> > > Every human being has desires to fulfil. Entire humanity with

> no

> > > exception is doing only the acts to fulfil their desires.

There

> > is

> > > nothing else ! that each one of us is doing at present. It is

> > quite

> > > natural also because, in fact you have been given human birth

> only

> > > to fulfil your desires. Desires are born along with you. It

is

> a

> > > law that if you have any desire then the element to fulfil

that

> > > desire is also existing. You cannot have a desire for a thing

> > which

> > > does not exist. For example, none of us has a desire to get

> > > say " flower of sky " . That is because the flower of sky does

not

> > > exist. If we have thirst, that necessarily means that there

> exists

> > > water on the planet. Had there been no water existing on the

> > planet

> > > we would not have felt thirsty. So the principle is – if you

> have

> > a

> > > desire there exists invariably an element to fulfil that

> desire.

> > It

> > > is also a law that if you have a desire then the power to

fulfil

> > > that desire is also existing in you. That is the kindness of

God

> > and

> > > that is justice also ! So you have a desire existing. You

also

> > have

> > > that element existing which fulfils that desire. You have

powers

> > > also to fulfil that desire. Once these three meet- then the

> desire

> > > gets fulfilled and thereby extinguishes. Then there remains no

> > > desire.

> > >

> > > Now what are your desires? They are not uncountable as we

> > generally

> > > believe. They are only three basically. (1) TO KNOW

SOMETHING;

> > (2)

> > > TO DO SOMETHING ; and (3) TO GET SOMETHING. ( If any Reader

can

> > > provide fourth desire - welcome. Some may feel " desire to

live' "

> > to

> > > be the 4th . But that desire is included in (3)- " to get " -

> > > longevity/ immortality). All desires ultimately get classified

> > into

> > > these 3 categories. To fulfil these desires you have three

> powers

> > > with us. (1) power to know ; (2) power to do and ( 3 )

power

> to

> > > believe/accept. These are the powers we have. We don't have a

> > power

> > > to get. That which we are to get is realised by us , if we

have

> > > exercised our power to believe/accept correctly. It is also a

> law

> > > that if we fulfil any one of the above three desires

> conclusively,

> > > then the balance two desires get automatically fulfilled.

> > >

> > > Now about the third element of the trinity. The element which

> > > fulfils the desire. What is that element ? With respect to the

> > first

> > > desire- to know something- the element has to be " that

element

> > > after knowing which nothing remains to be known " Then there

> > should

> > > not remain anything to be known. You have known everything.

> > > Similarly your desire to do something can extinguish only when

> you

> > > have done that thing after doing which nothing remains to be

> done,

> > > the very desire to do something should extinguish. The same

is

> > with

> > > your desire to get something. This can extinguish only when

you

> > have

> > > got that thing after getting which nothing remains to get (to

be

> > > attained). The very desire to get something should extinguish.

> So

> > > the yardstick for fulfilment of desire is- extinguishment of

> > > desire. What else can be the yardstick ? It is also a law that

> you

> > > cannot remain peaceful unless you have fulfilled your desires!

> > > Naturally! How can you remain peaceful when the very purpose

of

> > your

> > > getting human life is not fulfilled? Needless to say that if

> today

> > > you have these three desires existing in you then most

certainly

> > you

> > > have not known/done/got those elements which fulfil and

thereby

> > > extinguish those desires! Any doubt?

> > >

> > > You have been for eons and ages in fact are busy in

fulfilling

> > > these desires only. In this life also what are you doing at

> > present

> > > except making efforts to fulfil these desires ? But have these

> > > desires extinguished in you ? Are you peaceful? Do you have

> > nothing

> > > now to know/do/get? That means what? That means you are no

where

> > > near those elements which fulfil and therby extinguish these

> three

> > > basic desires! You made efforts throughout your life, you used

> > your

> > > powers consistently to fulfil your desires, but there are

still

> a

> > > lot of things which you have to know/do/ get. Meaning

thereby,

> > job

> > > unfulfilled ! No peace! What have you got till date by

> hankering,

> > > toiling, running, struggling ? - Sorrows, pains;

frustrations,

> > > dissatisfaction, deficiencies,lack of peace, tension, anxiety,

> > fear,

> > > turbulences, inner storms, 'birth' death; disease. And is

there

> an

> > > end in sight ? Again dying with unfulfilled desires, once

again

> > > taking birth, the cycle continues and continues. What have

you

> > not

> > > done (attempted) to fulfil the desires, what compromises you

> have

> > > not made to get what you desired? And still you are unhappy,

> > > deficient. Still the same old desires are haunting you. Some

> thing

> > > wrong some where- is not it?

> > >

> > > Gita and Veda precisely tell you what you should do and what

you

> > > should not do. They tell you what you should know and what is

> > futile

> > > even if you know. They tell what you should strive to get and

> what

> > > is useless even if you get. How to get those final elements

> which

> > > fulfil and thereby extinguish forever these three desires in

> you?

> > > What are those elements? How to use your powers? How to become

> > > peaceful? Who are you? How are you? To get answers, you

should

> > > believe in Gita/ Vedas. It is within your powers. You can

> believe

> > if

> > > you want. " To believe " - is one of the three powers you

have

> > got

> > > with you. Use that power of belief correctly, in right

direction

> > and

> > > get in return a liberation from an otherwise endless cycle..

Get

> > > peaceful. Get real ANANDA ( Bliss).. .

> > >

> > > One good enough reason?

> > >

> > > Jai Shree Krishna.

> > >

> > > Vyas N B

> > > ------------------------------

--

> --

> > -

> > > Loving Divine,

> > > Pranam.

> > > Beautiful question and beautiful answers. I am going to add

> > little

> > > more to it. In my understanding, Gitaji is a very compact

book

> of

> > > Psychology - science of studying mind and its manifestation in

> > > personal and social life. If one understands his/her own

> > > psychology, one is able to help oneself move in the right

> > direction,

> > > at the right time by making the right decision. This also

helps

> > one

> > > to understand behaviour of others in general. Eventually,

this

> > > brings better harmony in life. The following information is

> from

> > > Wikipedia. Try to understand this definition and then read

> > Bhagwat

> > > Gita, you will understand lot of things yourself why one

should

> > > study it!

> > >

> > > 'Psychology is an academic and applied discipline involving

the

> > > analytic and scientific study of mental processes and

behavior.

> > > Psychologists study such phenomena as perception, cognition,

> > > emotion, personality, behavior, and interpersonal

relationships.

> > > Psychology also refers to the application of such knowledge to

> > > various spheres of human activity including issues related to

> > daily

> > > life—e.g. family, education, and work—and the treatment of

> mental

> > > health problems. Psychology attempts to understand the role

> these

> > > functions play in social behavior and in social dynamics,

while

> > > incorporating the underlying physiological and neurological

> > > processes into its conceptions of mental functioning.

Psychology

> > > includes many sub-fields of study and application concerned

with

> > > such areas as human development, sports, health, industry,

> media,

> > > law, and transpersonal psychology.'

> > >

> > > Even though there are many sub-fields discussed in last line,

my

> > > strong conviction is that one can not change anything without

> > > bringing a change in one's own mental state and that's what

> > Krishna

> > > helped Arjun to realize. After understanding the above

> > definition,

> > > when one studies Gitaji, lot more things open up! Just

chapter

> > one

> > > raises lot of issues like discriminating mentality - yours vs.

> > mine,

> > > ego, illusion, racism, depression, fear, desire, attachment,

> > result

> > > of being over ambitious, stubbornness, ignorance, disrespect -

> > > attitude problem, self praise, boasting, distrust, dejection,

> sin,

> > > virtues - vices, some blind practices that are still going on

in

> > > today's environment, etc. Age old mind has not changed a bit

> even

> > > in today's so call scientific advancements - technological

> age.

> > > The key treatments offered are talking to a wise - trustworthy

> > > friend, having faith - love - devotion, right karma (action),

> > right

> > > understanding via knowledge, yoga-meditation, right eating,

> right

> > > attitude, regular study/practice of ones own mind and taking

> right

> > > action at the right time, etc... Ultimately practicing what

> > Gitaji

> > > is suggesting, one can expand his/her mind to cosmic level,

> > freeing

> > > one from all of this and reaching to liberation!

> > >

> > > Gitaji is showing a way for one to become his/her own

scientist,

> > > conduct the experiments suggested and conclude yourself rather

> > than

> > > depending on studies conducted by someone else! Accept the

> > > challenge and find out what it has to offer!

> > >

> > > Hope this helps.

> > > humble regards,

> > > always at Thy Holy Feet

> > >

> > > Manjula Patel

> > > ------------------------------

--

> --

> > > Jai Shri Krishna,

> > >

> > > Re Saadhak Daniel `s Query- Reply to Q no 2

> > >

> > > The dictionary definition of the word 'Science' has been

brought

> > out

> > > by Vyas Ji while addressing the subject query. The dictionary

> > might

> > > have defined the word say a few thousand years ago. However,

the

> > > word Science has been defined by Gitaji for TIMES IMMEMORIAL.

> > >

> > > The English word Science is known as 'Vigyan' in Sanskrit,

which

> > is

> > > an eternal language of Sanatan Dharma. Vi-gyan means special

> > > knowledge (learned or scientific knowledge, or philosophical

> > > acquired knowledge).

> > >

> > > It is important to note that the word Science has been defined

> in

> > > Gitaji at various places ( eg. Gitaji 7/2, 9/1). In fact each

> > verse

> > > in Gitaji treasures oceans of sciences, if explored. The

> question

> > of

> > > Gitaji standing the test of qualifying to be scientific does

not

> > > arise at all then.

> > >

> > > Gitaji has laid the laws and procedures for getting free from

> > grief

> > > (18/66), way of performing duties (2/47), renunciation (18/9),

> > > ensuring that sins stay away from us (2/38), style of eating

> food

> > > (6/16-17), offering anything to God (9/26), donation(17/20),

> > > equanimity (3/34) and so on and so forth, in precise yet

> > > comprehensive and logical (so called scientific) ways.

> > >

> > > Gitaji is much LARGER than science.

> > >

> > > Narayan Narayan

> > > Rajendra J Bohra

> > > ------------------------------

--

> --

> > -

> > > Mr. Keenor has made couple of apt observations. I could not

agree

> > > with him more in:

> > >

> > > 1. 'The Gita' is beyond science - one should derive support for

> > > one's sceintific understanding from Vedanta. NOT vice

versa .

> All

> > > attempts to bring " sceince " in Gita does not make any sense to

me

> > > either. Of course, Vedanta makes many sweeping observations on

> > > science as well just like any other faculty of human

information

> > > system to make a point. One should not limit oneself to such

> > > observations. Then, we would miss the boat altogether.

> > >

> > > 2. Bhagvada Gita is not a matter of just acceptance, it would

not

> > > ring a bell for someone like me who spent their life in

> technology.

> > > My faith in it, is based on experience - Vedanta is beyond

> > > acceptance, observation, understanding, learning etc. It is a

> > matter

> > > of being THAT. Nothing else. Of course, acceptance,

> understanding,

> > > learning etc. are all part of the process ... but yet cannot

> > > encompass THAT in anyway. The seeker should keep this in mind

> > > perpetually.

> > >

> > > Respects.

> > >

> > > Naga Narayana.

> > > ------------------------------

--

> -

> > > Thanks Mike.

> > > As a child, my grandmother told stories to me. She would ask

> which

> > > story, you want for today. And then she would tell same

stories

> > > again with adding more depth into it. After 50 years, I hold

> > belief

> > > in those stories that guides my life in matters of human

> > > sensibilities. Bhagwat Gita is just like that. I miss the

grand

> > > mother for the love, and her stories and care, and it gets

> > > substitute by the Bhagwat Gita which similarly answers all

> > > questions, and repeats with more depth.

> > >

> > > Bhagwat Gita is about you talking to yourself, and that

yourself

> > is

> > > absoltely detached and free. Once you start knowing 'that

freed

> > > yourself' more, you living into world become free and

detached.

> > >

> > > Best regards

> > > K G

> > > (Krishna Gopal)

> > >

> > > ------------------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > , " sadhak_insight "

> > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > -Shree Hari-

> > > >

> > > > A person who I had made acquaintance with under strange

> > > > circumstances, one day he said, " Mike you should read the

> > Bhagavad

> > > > Gita " . He lent me a copy, he knew what it was about. I found

> > that

> > > it

> > > > was amazing, it explained things to me that I had thought

> about,

> > > and

> > > > had experienced, these were things that were almost never

> dealt

> > > with

> > > > in western philosophy or science. How is it possible that

> this

> > > book

> > > > was able to answer question that laid deep within the psyche

> of a

> > > > person who had nothing to do with the faith behind it?

> > > >

> > > > This was a good few years ago, I am now reading this sacred

> text

> > > > slowly now on line, it has authoritative comments, and I am

> > > > allowing it to take me as far and as deep, that it will.

> > > >

> > > > To me 'The Gita' is beyond science. I have long considered

> that

> > > > science is constrained by the dogmas within it.

> > > >

> > > > From my point of view the Bhagvada Gita is not a matter of

just

> > > > acceptance, it would not ring a bell for someone like me who

> > spent

> > > > their life in technology. My faith in it, is based on

> experience.

> > > >

> > > > With respects and Divine love,

> > > >

> > > > Mike Keenor

> > > >

> > > > ----------------------------

--

> --

> > -

> > > > Shree Hari

> > > > Ram Ram

> > > >

> > > > Dear Daniel, thanks for a very good question!

> > > > Gita describes four Yogas to achieve the only goal of human

> life

> > to

> > > > realize the inherent divinity in man by uniting with the

> Supreme.

> > > > The Yoga of Devotion (Bhakti Yoga) is considered a direct,

> simple

> > > > and the best path. To follow this path, starting point is

> > > acceptance

> > > > and surrender in exclusive love of God. Even though this

path

> > > starts

> > > > with acceptance but eventually it leads to Knowledge of the

> > Supreme

> > > > in the end. This fact about the path of devotion as a potent

> > method

> > > > to realize the goal, is not unique to Gita or Hindu

tradition

> > but

> > > is

> > > > true for the most wisdom traditions of the world. The

> importance

> > of

> > > > acceptance is brought out by Swamiji Maharaj time & again in

> his

> > > > discourses and has been already captured beautifully by

> Vyasji's

> > > > response (#1).

> > > >

> > > > In science we go from proof to belief, in devotion we go

from

> > > belief

> > > > to proof.

> > > >

> > > > From the stand point of Yoga of Action (Karma Yoga), we do

not

> > have

> > > > to just accept what is declared in Gita but we can

> scientifically

> > > > verify it first through our own observation and personal

> > > experience.

> > > > The spiritual truths remain always unchanged, regardless of

> > whether

> > > > we accept them or not. These truths have been experienced and

> > > > validated by sages and seers over the centuries. For our

> > > > satisfaction, we too can validate these spiritual truths

> through

> > > our

> > > > own experimentation.

> > > >

> > > > Here are few of the verses from Gita on Karma Yoga to

> illustrate

> > > how

> > > > we can apply science to verify the truths in Gita:

> > > >

> > > > Gita 2-62/63

> > > >

> > > > Shows logically, the sequence of events when person gets

angry

> > and

> > > > the consequence which follow -

> > > >

> > > > " The man dwelling on sense-objects develops attachment for

> them;

> > > > from attachment springs up desire, and from desire

> (unfulfilled)

> > > > ensures anger. From anger arises delusion; from delusion

> > confusion

> > > > of memory, from confusion of memory loss of discrimination

> > (Budhi);

> > > > from the loss of discrimination, he falls down from his

> > > > spiritual goal " .

> > > >

> > > > Gita 2-64

> > > >

> > > > On what should the mind, weaned through from the senses, be

> > placed?

> > > >

> > > > " But a man of disciplined mind, though moving about amongst

the

> > > > objects of senses under control, free from likes and

dislikes,

> > > > attains tranquility of mind " .

> > > >

> > > > Gita 2-71

> > > >

> > > > What should the aspirant do so that he may gain access to the

> > > > perfect state:

> > > >

> > > > " He who abandons all desires and acts free from longing,

> without

> > > > attachment, egoism, he attains lasting peace " .

> > > >

> > > > Gita 2-56

> > > >

> > > > Pacification of the mind is explained -

> > > >

> > > > " He whose mind is not perturbed by adversity, who does not

> crave

> > > for

> > > > temporary happiness, who is free from fondness, fear and

anger

> is

> > > > the sage (Muni) of steady wisdom " .

> > > >

> > > > Gita 3-36

> > > >

> > > > Why does an intelligent man commit sin?

> > > >

> > > > Arjuna said: " By what is a man compelled to commit sin, as

if

> > > driven

> > > > by force, even against his will, O Varsneya (Krishna) " .

> > > >

> > > > Gita 3-37

> > > >

> > > > The Blessed Lord said: " The desire born of the mode of

passion

> > > > (Rajas), is anger, all devouring and most sinful. Know this

to

> be

> > > > the enemy here " .

> > > >

> > > > Similarly we can verify with our scientific enquiry many

> verses

> > in

> > > > Gita on Jnana Yoga and Yoga of Self Control, before

accepting

> > these

> > > > spiritual truths in Gita.

> > > >

> > > > Another question was about the source of Gita, in my humble

> > > opinion,

> > > > that is only an intellectual exercise, more important

question

> is

> > > > can the principles declared in Gita, when applied in our

daily

> > life

> > > > help to reach the goal!

> > > >

> > > > Humble regards,

> > > >

> > > > Madan Kaura

> > > > ----------------------------

> > > >

> > > > , " sadhak_insight "

> > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > Hari Om

> > > > >

> > > > > Re Saadhak Daniel `s Query- Reply to Q no 2

> > > > >

> > > > > At the outset I must clarify that a thing which is subject

> > matter

> > > > of

> > > > > belief/faith/acceptance/trust can also be scientific. It

is

> not

> > > > > necessary ( as we generally believe) that whatever is

> subject

> > > > > matter of belief cant be scientific!

> > > > >

> > > > > IS THERE SCIENTIFIC EXPLANATION FOR GITA?

> > > > >

> > > > > " Scientific " explanation/method/view ! " Science " ! Before

I

> > deal

> > > > > with these two terms with reference to Gita/ Vedas , let

me

> > tell

> > > > you

> > > > > that there is one more similar word in English language

> > > > > called " SCIENTISM " ! " Scientism " means as per English

> > > Dictionary -

> > > > > " The tendency to reduce all reality and experience to

> > > mathematical

> > > > > descriptions of physical and chemical phenomena " !! When

> > people

> > > > > reflected this tendency with reference to topics other

> > > > > than " physical and chemical phenomena " under the garb

> > > of " Science "

> > > > > or " Scientific " , the " Saturday Review " Editors got wild

> and

> > > they

> > > > > issued a powerful statement- so powerful that it now finds

> > place

> > > > in

> > > > > Dictionaries of English Language- under " SCIENTISM " . The

> > > > statement

> > > > > said – " Those of us who think that Scientific method is

> > > > applicable

> > > > > to political problems are apt to be told, rather sharply,

> that

> > we

> > > > > are talking " scientism " . This statement is relevant for

the

> > topic

> > > > > under reference and applies mutatis mutandis on any subject

> > > > > including subject matter of belief i. e. on any subject

> which

> > is

> > > > > not related with " physical and chemical phenomena " !

> However

> > my

> > > > > intention here is not to say that Gita is not scientific.

> Here

> > I

> > > > am

> > > > > answering partly also Q no 4 of Brother Daniel.

> > > > >

> > > > > What is " SCIENCE " ? The dictionary meaning of " science " -

(a)

> > > > > knowledge based on observed facts and tested truths

arranged

> > in

> > > an

> > > > > orderly system; (b) a branch of such knowledge dealing with

on

> > > > > training and practice ; (d) SEARCH FOR TRUTH ; (e)

> systematic,

> > > > > accurate, exact. The dictionary meaning of " SCIENTIFIC

> > METHOD " –

> > > > An

> > > > > orderly method consisting of identifying a problem ,

> gathering

> > > all

> > > > > the pertinent data,,formulating a hypothesis, performing

> > > > > experiments, interpreting results and drawing conclusions.

> The

> > > > > branches of science are Natural sciences, Social sciences,

> > > Applied

> > > > > Sciences, Physical sciences, Natural Sciences etc etc.

That

> is

> > > all

> > > > > what is called SCIENCE or SCIENTIFIC

> METHOD/EXPLANATION/VIEW

> > > What

> > > > > else it means?

> > > > >

> > > > > Gita and Vedas not only fall into each and every yardstick

> of

> > the

> > > > > aforesaid definitions but are far superior to them.

> > > > >

> > > > > Everything in Gita is scientific only. There is nothing

in

> > Gita

> > > > > which can be called illogical, inaccurate or irrational.

> There

> > is

> > > > no

> > > > > inconsistency in the 700 verses with each other. All the

> laws,

> > > > > principles, theories stated therein are proved by the

> > experience.

> > > > It

> > > > > is in perfect sync with theories of Veda, Upanishads and

> other

> > > > > eternal scriptures of Hindu Dharma. It explains

everything.

> > > There

> > > > > are many things for which no where else the explanation is

> > > > available

> > > > > but in Gita and allied scriptures.The explanations,

> > > > interpretations,

> > > > > concepts, laws, processes enumerated in Gita of the Soul,

> > > > > equanimity, Yoga, Surrender, God, Jeeva(self), Jagat

> (universe,

> > > > > world) , Gunas (attributes), Maya (illusion), Bondage,

> > > Liberation,

> > > > > Conscience, Nature (prakrati), Gross/Subtle and causal

> bodies,

> > > > types

> > > > > or variations of Prana ( air operating in body), Duty ,

> > Desires ,

> > > > > Mind, Intellect, Ego , Sorrow, Happiness, Karma, Doer, Law

of

> > > > Karma,

> > > > > Heaven, Hell etc etc cannot be disputed when put on the

> > > > yardsticks

> > > > > of a person's direct experience level and logic. They are

> > exact,

> > > > > accurate and precise. They are nothing but truthful. The

> Laws,

> > > > > Principles or Formulae given in Gita are infallible! There

> are

> > > > > people who practiced the principles of Gita and reaped the

> > fruits

> > > > > exactly as stated in Gita. The principles given in Gita

get

> > never

> > > > > outdated- unlike the principles of science., The reasons

of

> > > > > pleasures and pains are perfectly given- you cant argue

them

> > out!

> > > > > The entire universe and its phenomena is covered in Gita.

> Not

> > > only

> > > > > the present life but the state after death has been

covered.

> > The

> > > > > methods of eradication of pain from human life given in

Gita

> > are

> > > > so

> > > > > accurate that if you practice them there is no chance that

> you

> > > can

> > > > > fail in the same. The principles and practice of Self/ God

> > > > > Realisation are given to the perfection. Various

> alternatives

> > and

> > > > > perfect processes have been given of the paths leading to

> > > > > liberation, and to God. ( and for that purpose of the paths

> > > > leading

> > > > > to hell and heaven). Laws are explained, the exceptions

are

> > > given.

> > > > > Just as the scientific formulas operate in day to day life

> with

> > > > the

> > > > > precision, the formulas given in Gita also operate in day

to

> > day

> > > > > life with precision. Gita is larger than any science. It

> > > > addresses/

> > > > > explains those issues which science till today has not

been

> > able

> > > > to

> > > > > address. Like in Science, In Gita also the formulas

given

> are

> > > > > proven-- by your direct experiences. To compare Gita with

> > > science

> > > > > is disrespect to Gita. Science is one of the many many

ways

> of

> > > > > explaining or proving a given scenario and that science is

> more

> > > > > useful in terms of material or physical or chemical

> phenomena.

> > > > But

> > > > > Gita extends much beyond what science can ever imagine.

The

> > best

> > > > > proof is your own experience. No body till date has been

> able

> > to

> > > > > negate or argue out against what is stated in Gita. We

all

> > have

> > > a

> > > > > choice always , however, to believe or not. The Yoga

> process

> > of

> > > > > Gita ( control of Prana) and Patanjali Yoga Darshan has

been

> > > > > practiced by the millions of Saints, Sages, Rishis,

ordinary

> > > > people,

> > > > > Yogis, Saadhaks in the past and now also. None disputed

their

> > > > > results. The Praanayaam explained in Gita is even today

> > > > practiced

> > > > > by millions of people across the globe. What more

arguments

> are

> > > > > needed to prove something to be scientific. You certainly

> > cannot

> > > > > satisfy those who indulge in " SCIENTISM " . Because to get

> > > satisfied

> > > > > also is a subject matter of belief/acceptance !!!

> > > > >

> > > > > Jai Shree Krishna.

> > > > >

> > > > > Vyas N B

> > > > > --------------------------

--

> --

> > -

> > > > > Dear Sadak,

> > > > >

> > > > > With Ref to Daniel quiry.

> > > > >

> > > > > In Mathura there is place (Jail) where Krishna was born,

HIS

> > > nanda

> > > > > Gokul is there, Kans (Kamsa Krishna uncle) kingdom is

there.

> > The

> > > > > names of persons with whom Krishna dealt is there with

there

> > > > > residential proof. Sri Krishna where HE lived Dwaraka is

> there

> > > > > submerged in sea coast.

> > > > >

> > > > > Now regards scientific comparision: HE (sri Krishna) said

> > about-

> > > > > human body system, food, inhaling process, mental changes

> due

> > to

> > > > > vasanas, how one` s destiny is working scientifically

system

> of

> > > > > birth and death, purpose of birth, six stages of changes

> that

> > all

> > > > > living beings undergo (in sanskrit word starting from

> > Parimalathe

> > > > > (appear) -to- Asthi (death) ), how to reach divinity, six

> > mental

> > > > > levels starting from Kaama-Krodha-Madha etc which today

> science

> > > > > says mental balance is important for health, HE taught

how

> to

> > > > > behave with teacher, friend (Kuchela), oponant Duryodhan,

> > parents

> > > > > etc. HE also taught complete detachment if one

contemplates

> on

> > > HIS

> > > > > life patern. HE could forsee the fate of Jarasand whose

fate

> to

> > > > die

> > > > > in the hands of Bheema. HE could know anyone

> > intellect.Example:

> > > HE

> > > > > acted to have headache and said it could be cured by the

> dust

> > of

> > > > HIS

> > > > > baktha. Narada, HIS 8 wives, and other refused to dust

when

> HE

> > > > > asked. Then HE said get the dust of Gopies. Later everyone

> > > relized

> > > > > their mistakes.

> > > > >

> > > > > Faith can move mountains. To day in Kaliyuga everything is

> > > > doubted.

> > > > > One doubt is enough, that one will multiply to infinite

> > > completely

> > > > > removing peace of mind. These are said in Geetha if one

reads

> > > > > carfully.

> > > > >

> > > > > B.Sathyanarayan

> > > > > --------------------------

--

> --

> > -

> > > > > Hari Om

> > > > >

> > > > > Dear Sri Daniel

> > > > >

> > > > > I was intrigued by your query and therefore decided to

test

> > > myself

> > > > on

> > > > > the same lines.

> > > > >

> > > > > Being a Science student and definitely having a bias

towards

> > > > > Mathematics, I have always sought to reduce any concept or

> > idea

> > > to

> > > > > simple rules.

> > > > >

> > > > > I am reminded of a Mathematics term " Axiom " . It means " A

> self-

> > > > > evident principle or one that is accepted as true without

> > proof

> > > as

> > > > > the basis for argument; a postulate " .

> > > > >

> > > > > Can Gita be reduced to an Axiom. I often wonder !

> > > > >

> > > > > St. Augustine said, " Faith is to believe what you do not

> see;

> > the

> > > > > reward of this faith is to see what you believe " .

> > > > >

> > > > > The route to achieving the goal as prescribed in Gita is

to

> > > pursue

> > > > > diligently what is said in Gita, taking it as an Axiom,

and

> at

> > > > every

> > > > > stage experiencing the change within.

> > > > >

> > > > > Have I experienced any change? Yes.

> > > > >

> > > > > I have seen changes in myself with reference to Anger, I

> have

> > > seen

> > > > > the benefits of Acceptance, and am sure several of the

> Sadhakas

> > > > > experience the changes within which gives them the

> confidence

> > > that

> > > > > they are in THE PATH.

> > > > >

> > > > > Thanks for the query

> > > > >

> > > > > Hari Om

> > > > > Jayaraman

> > > > > --------------------------

--

> --

> > > > > All these explanations are in a stand point of Intellect

> > > only.....

> > > > >

> > > > > Do you believe that you have Father and Grand Father or

Great

> > > > Grand

> > > > > Father.. or Great Great Grand Father?

> > > > >

> > > > > Do you believe you exist? Then all our Sastras also

exist...

> > > > >

> > > > > I got a big laugh when our present remote sensing Sonia

asked

> > > > about

> > > > > Sri Rama's Birth Certificate, what a foolishness.....

> > > > >

> > > > > All these are in the argument level. Can you show you have

> > > > Brains..

> > > > > I need proof. I need to see the brain physically not

through

> > > image

> > > > > scanning!!

> > > > >

> > > > > May GOD Bless

> > > > >

> > > > > Krishna Prasad

> > > > >

> > > > > --------------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > > > , " sadhak_insight "

> > > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Dear Daniel

> > > > > > There are three words a) information b) knowledge c)

truth.

> > > > > > Information is empirical or a typical case like history,

or

> > > > court

> > > > > > case with names and places and details of

observervation.

> > Akbar

> > > > > and

> > > > > > Ashoka both are rulers but student of history can not

> > substitue

> > > > > one

> > > > > > with another.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Knowledge is not information but a model or

> > theoretical/logical

> > > > > > model which is not dependent on a given history or

> experiment

> > > > but

> > > > > is

> > > > > > always there in some form or the other. Physics is not a

> > given

> > > > > > history but ever present (sanaatan, nitya) and f =

force,

> g=

> > > > > > gravity, v= velocity are symbol of characters which

takes

> > any

> > > > > names

> > > > > > and places in value. Physics can thus, predict any

> > information

> > > > > > without specific names. This 'physics' which is nitya,

> > sanaatan

> > > > is

> > > > > > thus an example of knowledge.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Satya (truth) is one step beyond the knowledge. It is

> > universal

> > > > > > knowledge and therefore known naturally to all f us

without

> > > > > effort,

> > > > > > and common to all. Because it is common, there cannot

exist

> > > > > > differences in opinon, and thus no conflict. Gandhi

> therefore

> > > > > > defined truth in its property of non voilence. In other

> > words,

> > > > if

> > > > > > understanding of Bhagwat Gita makes one contemplative and

> > > > > > independent, and free from anexiety, conflict then this

is

> > > > Truth.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Science is not truth but a way to truth. This is a know

> how

> > of

> > > > > > already known things. If there is no truth, there can

not

> be

> > > > > > sciences explaining that. Thus, truth is the aim of all

> > > > > knowledges.

> > > > > > It can only be realized but when it comes to

explanation,

> it

> > > > > becomes

> > > > > > sciences.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I cannot write how many times in Bhagwat Gita, satya

> (Truth)

> > > and

> > > > > > gyan (Knowledge) are used differently, and accurate

> > absolutely.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Best regards

> > > > > > K G

> > > > > > (Krishna Gopal)

> > > > > > ------------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > -

> > > > > > Jai Shri Krishna,

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Re: Sadhak Daniel's query - Q 1

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Vyas Ji has beautifully addressed Sadhak Daniel's query

on

> > > > > > Acceptance.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Acceptance is FAR MORE Superior than learning

(knowledge).

> > > > > Whatever

> > > > > > one accepts in life, one never forgets, whereas anything

> > learnt

> > > > > can

> > > > > > always be forgotten, partially or completely. If you are

> > woken

> > > > up

> > > > > in

> > > > > > the middle of the night and asked what is your marital

> > status,

> > > > you

> > > > > > will not need even a second to think before answering

this

> > > > > question

> > > > > > because you have firmly accepted that you are bachelor,

> > married

> > > > or

> > > > > > widower.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > At least in the Indian context, a chaste (Pativrata)

woman,

> > > > > accepts

> > > > > > her relationship with the person she marries just by the

> > saying

> > > > of

> > > > > > the Priest performing the matrimonial rituals. The

> > acceptance

> > > is

> > > > > > instant and so firm that even after say 50 years of the

> > death

> > > of

> > > > > her

> > > > > > husband she becomes vigilant whenever anyone takes her

> > > husband's

> > > > > > name. She can never forget the acceptance of the man as

her

> > > > > husband.

> > > > > > A Suhagan (a married woman with her husband alive) does

> not

> > see

> > > > > > herself as 'Widow' even in her dreams - that is the

power

> of

> > > > > > ACCEPTANCE.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > We all will vouch for the fact that many things we learn

> in

> > > life

> > > > > > (knowledge acquired), we tend to forget with time. BUT

no

> one

> > > > > > forgets whatever one accepts once.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Use of underestimating words such as " simply " is apt at

> best

> > to

> > > > > > learning (knowledge) only. Acceptance is on top at 100

on

> on

> > a

> > > > > scale

> > > > > > where learning is at 1.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Narayan Narayan

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Rajendra J Bohra

> > > > > >

> > > > > > ------------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > --

> > > > > > Why we should believe in the Gita or for that matter the

> > Vedas?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Belief in anything is useless in itself. Yet, belief

alone

> > can

> > > > let

> > > > > > anyone start one's journey toward anything including

> > > > spirituality.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > You cannot derive benefit from anything – be it Gita or

> > Vedas

> > > or

> > > > > > cough medicine – unless you have a belief to start with.

> It

> > is

> > > > our

> > > > > > habit to ignore things unless we have a belief.

Therefore,

> > one

> > > > > > should have belief in something if one wants to derive

> > benefits

> > > > > from

> > > > > > anything. Belief is the key to the door for any body of

> > > knowledge

> > > > > > including Vedanta.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > If we make our beleifs our path we won't go anywhere

just

> > like

> > > a

> > > > > > blind man following another blind man. Belief cannot

reap

> the

> > > > > fruits

> > > > > > from anything unless we adapt to the path we choose.

> > Threfore,

> > > > it

> > > > > is

> > > > > > what you understand and realize from the scripts that

> > matters

> > > for

> > > > > > our progress. Carrying out anything without

understanding

> is

> > > even

> > > > > > worse than not doing it since we could channel our

> resources

> > to

> > > > > what

> > > > > > helps us. Understanding is the key to tread the path we

> > choose

> > > > > > including spiritual practice.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > But, even if we understand great meanings out of the

> > scripts,

> > > it

> > > > is

> > > > > > of no use unless it is adapted in our life. No matter

what

> we

> > > > > > understand in our thought process, we continue to fidget

> in

> > our

> > > > > > lives contrary to our very understanding unless the

> knowledge

> > > > > > perculates to our atomic existence in its subtlety and

> > clarity.

> > > > It

> > > > > > is what we are that matters at any point of time –

before

> the

> > > > path

> > > > > > wherein no belief has dawned, in the path wherein the

> belief

> > > has

> > > > > > kicked off the process, and all along the path wherein

the

> > > > > knowledge

> > > > > > trickles into our living, in its purity. After all what

we

> > > would

> > > > be

> > > > > > matters no matter we took guidance from an Upanishad or

> from

> > a

> > > > Veda

> > > > > > or from The Gita or from any other scriptures or from

The

> > Life

> > > as

> > > > > > such.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The idea is to be at peace. The litmus test for our

state

> in

> > > the

> > > > > > path is the happiness. Anything that deviates us from

our

> > > natural

> > > > > > state of peace and happiness is reveals the play of our

> > > ignorance

> > > > > > and alerts us to explore and fix the same at once. To

jump

> > > start

> > > > > > ourselves in such a process we should believe in Vedas.

To

> > keep

> > > > in

> > > > > > pace with the process, we should understand the Vedas.

To

> be

> > > one

> > > > > with

> > > > > > the process, we should be the Vedas.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Veda means Knowledge. Knowledge means Bliss. Bliss is

The

> > > Truth.

> > > > We

> > > > > > should be grateful to the Faith as it put us in the path

of

> > > > > > Knowledge. We should be grateful to the Knowledge as it

> > marches

> > > > us

> > > > > > toward the Bliss. We should be grateful to the Bliss as

it

> > > keeps

> > > > us

> > > > > > with the Truth. All are excellent as far as they are

> > correctly

> > > > > > placed and practiced.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Respects.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Naga Narayana.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > ------------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > --

> > > > --

> > > > > --

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Jai hree Krishna Pryia Bhandus

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Based on my understanding, Gita/Vedas are the origins of

> > > > LANGUAGE,

> > > > > > MATHS AND SCIENCE. Here is an example of Math and the

> number

> > > > ZERO.

> > > > > > Origins from SANYAS into Arabic SIFER to Latin CIFER and

> > > english

> > > > > > ZERO.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > As I understand, the concept of Nothingness came from

Vedic

> > > > > thought

> > > > > > as well. SANATAN DHARMA represents Eternal and ultimate

> > TRUTH.

> > > > > > These Eternal Truths existed even before creation, just

> like

> > > > > gravity

> > > > > > existed even before Newton labeled it as gravity, when he

> > > > observed

> > > > > > the apple falling from a tree.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Jai Hind

> > > > > > Jayesh A Patel

> > > > > > London

> > > > > >

> > > > > > , " sadhak_insight "

> > > > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Hari Om

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Re Saadhak Daniel's Queries - Reply to Question No 1

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > There are too many queries emanating in reality.

First

> > let

> > > > me

> > > > > > > summarise them. Then a separate reply shall be given

for

> > each

> > > > > > query.

> > > > > > > In the end we shall conclude- so that time and space

> > > > > requirements

> > > > > > of

> > > > > > > Moderator also remain complied with.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Q 1 Is Gita simply a matter of Acceptance?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Q 2 Is there scientific explanation ( other than

> > > acceptance) ?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Q 3 Why we should believe in the Gita or for that

> purpose

> > > > the

> > > > > > > Vedas?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Q 4 How do you explain to some one that whatever is

> > > explained

> > > > > in

> > > > > > > Gita is truthful ?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Q 5 How do we know the real source of Gita?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Q 6 Is there anything in the Gita that provides

> > scientific

> > > > > view /

> > > > > > > explanation or anything that addresses the Origin of

> Vedas/

> > > > Gita?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Now these are the six questions, which Brother Daniel

has

> > > > asked,

> > > > > > at

> > > > > > > the same time acknowledging that he has been studying

> Gita

> > > and

> > > > > > > believes that everything stated therein is truth. He

> wants

> > > now

> > > > > to

> > > > > > > make others believe that.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > In this posting first I will take Q no 1. Every day I

> shall

> > > > > > address

> > > > > > > one question and in the end shall conclude.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > IS GITA SIMPLY A MATTER OF ACCEPTANCE?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Everything in this world basically is a matter of

> > acceptance

> > > > > only.

> > > > > > > Why to single out Gita? Take your birth for example.

Can

> > you

> > > > say

> > > > > > > based on the " knowledge " - your own personal

knowledge -

> as

> > to

> > > > > who

> > > > > > is

> > > > > > > your father? You don't remember your birth. Whoever

gave

> > you

> > > > > love

> > > > > > > and affection in the beginning was your mother and to

> > > > whosoever

> > > > > > she

> > > > > > > pointed out was your father! How will you prove that

Mr

> So

> > > and

> > > > > So

> > > > > > is

> > > > > > > your father ? THERE IS NO WAY ANYBODY CAN PROVE BASED

ON

> > HIS

> > > > > > > KNOWLEDGE THAT HE IS SON OF MR SO AND SO

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I repeat no way! This is a fact. Anybody can raise a

> > separate

> > > > > > query

> > > > > > > on this. You have to accept only in the beginning.

Later

> on

> > > > the

> > > > > > > knowledge comes. It is your acceptance level which

opens

> > the

> > > > > door

> > > > > > of

> > > > > > > knowledge in life. When you accept that you are son of

> so

> > and

> > > > > so,

> > > > > > > that acceptance keeps strengthening in you and when

you

> > > become

> > > > > > adult

> > > > > > > or old , your talking, walking styles, your physique or

> > > > > mannerism

> > > > > > > start resembling to your father ! First you have to

> > accept.

> > > > You

> > > > > > > accept first that alphabet A comes before alphabet B,

> > later

> > > on

> > > > > you

> > > > > > > may become a Professor of English language. You have

to

> > > accept

> > > > > > first

> > > > > > > that one plus one is two- later on you can get a

> > Doctorate

> > > in

> > > > > > > mathematics! Why one plus one is 2 and not 3? Why do

you

> > > > > pronounce

> > > > > > A

> > > > > > > as A and not as B? You accepted first. Later on you

> became

> > > > > > > knowledgeable! Just as you accepted someone to be your

> > > father,

> > > > > you

> > > > > > > have to first accept God also. Later on all

explanations

> > and

> > > > > > logics

> > > > > > > will flow. You cant establish by knowledge the

identity

> of

> > > > your

> > > > > > own

> > > > > > > father, where is the question then of establishing

> > > > > > > the eternal father , the God? Same is for Gita also

> which

> > is

> > > > the

> > > > > > > voice of that God only- whose identity you cant

establish

> > > > based

> > > > > on

> > > > > > > your knowledge. God is beyond knowledge. God or Gita

or

> our

> > > > > > fathers

> > > > > > > all are matter of belief and acceptance. Yes Gita is

a

> > > matter

> > > > > of

> > > > > > > acceptance! What is wrong with that? If you start

making

> a

> > > > list-

> > > > > > you

> > > > > > > will find uncountable things in life which you

accepted

> > > first.

> > > > > We

> > > > > > > shall deal with it later on with specific reference.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Jai Shree Krishna

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Vyas N B

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > ----------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > --

> > > > --

> > > > > --

> > > > > > > Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Very good question, " One has studied Gita for some

time

> and

> > > > > > believes

> > > > > > > that it has absolute truth, but how do you explain to

> > someone

> > > > > else

> > > > > > > logically that Gita has the truth? "

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > The way I understand is that belief in truth has a

place

> in

> > > > > > > organized religions. However the truth as taught in

Gita

> or

> > > > Veda

> > > > > > or

> > > > > > > other such scriptures is to be experienced. The

teaching

> is

> > > > > about

> > > > > > > the reality of " I " , the world, and God, and above all

> how

> > > they

> > > > > are

> > > > > > > related to each other. Simply belief in the truth will

> not

> > > > work

> > > > > in

> > > > > > > this case as it is not organized around God, the

truth.

> > Gita

> > > > is

> > > > > > not

> > > > > > > dogmatic. Many possibilities are explained rather than

> > > > preached

> > > > > > > specific. When one's belief is replaced with knowing

> > > > > > experientially,

> > > > > > > one knows how to explain to others!

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Second difficulty is that the experience of God is

> unlike

> > all

> > > > > > other

> > > > > > > experiences which are all objective knowledge through

> sense

> > > > > > organs,

> > > > > > > mind and intellect. All such experiences are limited

in

> > > scope.

> > > > > God

> > > > > > > is that Knowingness itself through which everything

else

> is

> > > > > known

> > > > > > to

> > > > > > > exist in the first place and that which cannot be

> > > objectified,

> > > > > > When

> > > > > > > objectified, God becomes limited object of our belief.

> > Belief

> > > > in

> > > > > > God

> > > > > > > takes one up to a certain point, never to final

> salvation..

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Lord Krishna is speaking unspeakable only because we

> need

> > to

> > > > > > > communicate to ohers with a full knowledge that it is

> only

> > a

> > > > > > pointer

> > > > > > > to truth. One has to walk accordingly.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Such being the case, my suggestion would be to explain

> > these

> > > > > above

> > > > > > > points first. Then one has to study with open mind,

> asking

> > > > > > > questions, doubting, and not resting until answers

become

> > > > > > > convictions and resonate within oneself. True

> > Understanding

> > > of

> > > > > > > verses culminate into bursts of joy and satisfaction.

> This

> > is

> > > > a

> > > > > > test

> > > > > > > of experience of truth. In this regard help of like

> minded

> > > > > > friends,

> > > > > > > realized teacher, and platform such as this group is

> highly

> > > > > > > recommended. The one to whom we want to explain has to

be

> > > > > > interested

> > > > > > > in truth and approach us to have a meaningful

> explanation.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Namaskars...Pratap

> > > > > > > (Pratap Bhatt)

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > ----------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > --

> > > > --

> > > > > --

> > > > > > > Dear seeker of permanent truths,

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > The physical, subtle and causal Truths are found by two

> > > > methods

> > > > > > viz.

> > > > > > > either Inductive or Deductive. Inductive methods are

> > normally

> > > > > > > applied in physical sciences and scientific findings

go

> on

> > > > > > changing.

> > > > > > > Newtonian Physics of inert matter has vastly changed

as

> > > matter

> > > > > is

> > > > > > > now having unsuspected vitality. Even steel feels

> fatigue.

> > > > > Science

> > > > > > > once said Earth is static and Sun is moving, now

Sceince

> > has

> > > > > > > accepted Sun is stationary and earth is moving.

Biology

> is

> > > > > > changing

> > > > > > > every day.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > The permanent truths found through deductive methods

> known

> > to

> > > > > > human

> > > > > > > soul (apriori knowledge) contained in Vedas, Bhagavd

> Gita

> > and

> > > > > > > Upanishads have been challenged, criticised and even

> people

> > > > like

> > > > > > > great materialists Charvakas said it was going back to

> the

> > > > > ancient

> > > > > > > period. BUT till date not proved wrong even by the

great

> > > > > > scientists

> > > > > > > of any age-past and present. On the contrary even

Newton,

> > > > > Einstein

> > > > > > > and many others confirrmed about the existence of

Supreme

> > > > > Reality.

> > > > > > > Einstein even put a board outside his laboratory " Thou

> art

> > > > > That " .

> > > > > > > and said God does not play dice.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Deductive method is based on Metaphysics (beyond

> > > > Physics/matter)

> > > > > > > which Bhagavd Gita says is the supreme science. The

rsis

> > and

> > > > > > munnies

> > > > > > > (metaphysicists and wandering sages)of yore got these

> > > > permanent

> > > > > > > truths through their omniscient souls. Vedic truths in

> > regard

> > > > to

> > > > > > > matter are now being proved even in the laboratory of

> > > > scientists

> > > > > > > relating to atom, sub atomic particles, physical

> sciences.

> > > But

> > > > > > > truths relating to subtle matters like subtle divine

> > Nature,

> > > > > > > location of subtle instruments in human body like

Vivek

> > > (power

> > > > > of

> > > > > > > discernment, Ego, Buddhi (intellect), manas (inward

> looking

> > > > > mind),

> > > > > > > physical scientist can never find. They only know about

> > > > > maaterial

> > > > > > > instruments in the human body like senses, sense

organs

> > etc.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > If truths contained in Vedas and Bhagavad Gita are to

be

> > > > > accepted

> > > > > > on

> > > > > > > blind faith, it is better not to accept and one should

> > > > continue

> > > > > > > facing material happiness or sorrows in this vast

> turbulent

> > > > sea

> > > > > of

> > > > > > > matter. But one who is convinced of the much higher

> > deductive

> > > > > > > methods of finding truths, will accept Bhagavad Gita

and

> > > Vedas

> > > > > as

> > > > > > > Shruti - revealed through the human soul which is

subtle

> > > > > particle

> > > > > > of

> > > > > > > the Supreme Soul (Parmatma).

> > > > > > > with kind regards,

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > P.K.Sabhlok

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > ----------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > --

> > > > --

> > > > > --

> > > > > > -

> > > > > > > Dear TKach.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I think the Moderator would/may respond to this one

> query.

> > > > > Staying

> > > > > > > with the group's exchanges so far, would have already

> shed

> > > > some

> > > > > > > light on these Truths.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > To me as a sadhak; A real " believer's " is he whose

> > conviction

> > > > is

> > > > > > > fully realised and becomes one with it. It is not

about

> > > blind

> > > > > > > faith.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Even the scientist person like Newton in a question of

> him

> > > > being

> > > > > > the

> > > > > > > greatest person, came out stating that " people say I

> know

> > so

> > > > so

> > > > > > > much; but in fact my knowledge is just like an atom of

> > dust

> > > at

> > > > > the

> > > > > > > sea-shore...while I have so much to gain the

> > knowledge ... " .

> > > > The

> > > > > > > Science or seeking scientific reasons being only or

> > related

> > > to

> > > > > > > physics or a form and being limited - cannot in anyway

> > define

> > > > > the

> > > > > > > omni-present and all-prevading GOD.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > This subject is of HEART before the BRAIN.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Best Regards

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Kishin Chandiramani

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > ----------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > --

> > > > --

> > > > > --

> > > > > > --

> > > > > > > Dear Sadak,

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Geetha starts, " EITHI UPANATHSHU " . That means Geetha

is

> > juice

> > > > of

> > > > > > > Upanashids/Vedas.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > From my personal view the Geetha is Do`s and Dont`s.

> Rules

> > > > laid

> > > > > to

> > > > > > > guide one from human to divinity. Once human level

> raises

> > to

> > > > > > > divinity, he becomes realized in conscience level.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > If one believes Geetha and strictly PRACTICES what

> Krishna

> > > > says,

> > > > > > > that person becomes " Gunaa Theethan " , as Bagavan

himself

> > > said.

> > > > > The

> > > > > > > question any one of you can ask yourself, " Am I

> practicing

> > > > basic

> > > > > > > princlples of Geetha, speaking truth (alignment of

> thought,

> > > > word

> > > > > > and

> > > > > > > deed at the conscience level), seeing Bagavan (God

> > > > Consciousness)

> > > > > > in

> > > > > > > all living creatures, getting up early in morning and

> > atleast

> > > > > > > thinking of Bagavan, controling senses - tongue in

eating

> > > > > (Bagavan

> > > > > > > said in Geetha how Gunas affect a person due to food)

> and

> > in

> > > > > > talking

> > > > > > > (Not causing the least pain by words spoken), Bagavan

> > > > > > says, " Indriya

> > > > > > > (Organs of actions) control. Do we do this?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > After this comes Bagavan saying, " Kama yeshu- Krodha

> yeshu

> > > > etc " .

> > > > > > > From desire comes anger, from anger comes greed etc.

> > Simply

> > > > by

> > > > > > > understanding these words through vivek (discriminative

> > > > faculty)

> > > > > > one

> > > > > > > can become calms and experience Ananda (it is bliss,

> with

> > no

> > > > > > > opposite, it is not happiness). The opposity of

> Happiness

> > is

> > > > > > > sorrow, such as health and sickess, so on. But for

Ananda

> > > > there

> > > > > is

> > > > > > > no opposite. Some people just by reading Bagavath

Geetha

> > feel

> > > > > > happy,

> > > > > > > then what to speak of application in one's life;

Imagine

> > the

> > > > > glory.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Coming to scientific explanation, Geetha says, " Prana,

> > Samana

> > > > > etc "

> > > > > > 5

> > > > > > > pranas, which scientist accepts 5 elements of air we

> > breath.

> > > > > Over

> > > > > > > night kept food forments and produces certain chemical

> > change

> > > > > next

> > > > > > > day says Geetha. Scientist say food kept in store for

a

> > night

> > > > > and

> > > > > > > used next day causes surge in immune system. But

Geetha

> has

> > > > gone

> > > > > > > much deeper than scientist by says how our brain is

> > affected.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > There is everything in Geetha for the whole creation.

> But

> > one

> > > > > does

> > > > > > > not make the effort to read and deeply contemplate on

> > hidden

> > > > > > truths.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Now coming to Sri Krishna: HE had 108 Sidhis, able to

> lift

> > > > > > mountain,

> > > > > > > kill demons, bring back the dead son of HIS Guru

> Sandipan`s

> > > > dead

> > > > > > son

> > > > > > > to life. HIS teaching gives more insight about human

way

> of

> > > > > living

> > > > > > > that could elevate to Moksha. In HIS life time were

> there

> > any

> > > > > > > mistakes? HE is therefore believed by saints

as " Jagath

> > > GURU " .

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Sri Krishna says, that one needs to under go several

> birth

> > to

> > > > > > start

> > > > > > > to say " Om Namo Narayanaya " . So the ones who do not

> > believe

> > > in

> > > > > HIM

> > > > > > > is our brothers/sisters are on the way striving to

reach

> > that

> > > > > > level.

> > > > > > > Therefore there should be no dislike/hatred to be

shown

> to

> > > any

> > > > > > > persons, as Sri Krishna says, " See ME in all

creation " .

> One

> > > > may

> > > > > > > believe in Geetha but if one should have even in

> conscience

> > > > > level

> > > > > > a

> > > > > > > small dislike on the person who disbelieves Sri

Krishna/

> > > > Geetha,

> > > > > > > then such a person is not true Visnavite.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > B.Sathyanarayan

> > > > > > > ----------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > --

> > > > --

> > > > > -

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > , " sadhak_insight "

> > > > > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Haribol!!

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Can anyone explain why we should believe in the Gita

> or

> > for

> > > > > that

> > > > > > > > matter the Vedas?

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I've been studying Bhagavad Gita for some time, and I

> > > > believe

> > > > > > > everything

> > > > > > > > that is there is the absolute truth, but how do you

> > explain

> > > > to

> > > > > > > someone

> > > > > > > > else that this is the truth? It is not enough to

> say " it

> > > > comes

> > > > > > from

> > > > > > > > Krsna " " just accept Krsna " . It has to be a more

> > scientific

> > > > and

> > > > > > > thorough

> > > > > > > > explanation, do you know what I mean?

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I'd like to be able to explain to someone why this

is

> the

> > > > > truth,

> > > > > > > how do

> > > > > > > > we know the real source !

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Is there anything in the Gita that provides

scientific

> > > view /

> > > > > > > > explanation or anything that addresses the Origin of

> the

> > > > > Vedas /

> > > > > > > Gita ?

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Hare Krsna!! Thanks.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Daniel Tkach

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > FROM THE MODERATOR

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES:

> > > > > > > > The Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify

> > their

> > > > > doubts

> > > > > > > > related to Gitaji shlokas. To ensure that both the

> > > questions

> > > > > and

> > > > > > > the

> > > > > > > > responses are focused, pointed and brief, the

> guidelines

> > > for

> > > > > > Gita-

> > > > > > > Talk

> > > > > > > > discussions are being modified and are being sent to

> you.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > The following are the guidelines for Gita-Talk

> > discussions.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > GUIDELINES FOR POSTING A QUESTION:

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > 1. The group is focused on the Holy Gitaji and

> clarifying

> > > > any

> > > > > > > doubts,

> > > > > > > > therefore only questions that pertain to Gitaji will

be

> > > > posted

> > > > > > in

> > > > > > > the

> > > > > > > > future.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > 2. Please restrict the number of questions asked to

> only

> > > one

> > > > > at

> > > > > > a

> > > > > > > time.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > 3. Making reference of Gitaji shloka is compulsory -

at

> > > > least

> > > > > > once

> > > > > > > in

> > > > > > > > the question.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > 4. Please be specific with the question, relating the

> > > > practical

> > > > > > > > difficulties being faced by the Sadhak. Specifics

> around,

> > > > > where

> > > > > > is

> > > > > > > the

> > > > > > > > sadhak facing obstacles in his spiritual journey, in

> the

> > > > > > teachings

> > > > > > > of

> > > > > > > > Geetaji, in principles laid down by Swamiji or other

> > > > Mahatamas

> > > > > > are

> > > > > > > > highly recommended to be included.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > 5. General questions will not be considered for

future

> > > > posting.

> > > > > > > > e.g. " suicide " " solving world hunger " etc.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > GUIDELINES FOR POSTING A RESPONSE:

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > 1. The group is focused on the Holy Gitaji,

therefore,

> > only

> > > > > > > responses

> > > > > > > > which further clarify the understanding of Gitaji,

> will

> > be

> > > > > > posted.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > 2. Making reference of Gitaji shloka is highly

> > encouraged -

> > > > at

> > > > > > > least

> > > > > > > > once in the response. Wherever possible, please

quote

> > > > Gitaji

> > > > > or

> > > > > > > other

> > > > > > > > scriptures to substantiate your response.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > 3. Please be as concise and to the point as possible,

> > > > > respecting

> > > > > > > > sadhaka's time. Under no circustance the answer

should

> > > > exceed

> > > > > > say

> > > > > > > one

> > > > > > > > page at the most (500 words or so).

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > 4. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs

> > etc.

> > > to

> > > > > the

> > > > > > > > extent that they further help in understanding the

Gita

> > > > shlokas

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand

> only.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or

> > other

> > > > > > > > organizations.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > 7. Complete reproduction of texts from any book is

> > strongly

> > > > > > > > discouraged, however references may be made of the

> book

> > or

> > > > > > author

> > > > > > > (but

> > > > > > > > not links to other sites).

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > 8. Kindly do not include your personal information

> such

> > as

> > > > > phone

> > > > > > > > number, address etc.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > 9. Please do not address the response to a particular

> > > > > individual

> > > > > > > since

> > > > > > > > the message is going to the entire group.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > 10. Due to the large readership, only those

responses

> > will

> > > > be

> > > > > > > posted

> > > > > > > > which are in line with the general philosophy of

taking

> > > > Shrimad

> > > > > > > > Bhagavad Gita as the reference.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > 11. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the

> posting,

> > if

> > > > > > > content is

> > > > > > > > unclear for distribution or not directly related to

the

> > > > > question

> > > > > > > being

> > > > > > > > asked.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > 12. Please respond taking into consideration the

> novices,

> > > > > youth,

> > > > > > > > westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the

> use

> > of

> > > > > only

> > > > > > > > Sanskrit words, rather provide the English word with

> > > Sanskrit

> > > > > > > > bracketed wherever possible.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > MODERATOR

> > > > > > > > Ram Ram

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

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Is Gita Simply a Matter of Acceptance ? Is there Scientific Explanations?

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