Please Explain Gita's Wisdom on The Word , Time and God per Gita 2:12

[Guest guest]

-Shree Hari-

 

I have a question:

 

Extending from Bhagavad Gita 2.12----Never was there a time when I

did not exist, nor you, nor all these kings; nor in the future shall

any of us cease to be.

 

Reading the above reminded me of a conversation I had with a young

priest, I was explaining my view of 'The Word', and how I sensed that

all we perceive as existence including The Creator i.e. The Word

existed in Time but beyond that was the ever present source. He

exclaimed ha! You mean The Word is God in time.

 

It seems to me this a somewhat universal concept. Perhaps I am out of

the starting blocks a little early, but maybe some good person can

give me the Bhagavad Gita wisdom on this, (I am sure its there).

 

With respects and Divine Love.

 

Mike

(Mike Keenor)

 

GUIDELINES FOR POSTING A RESPONSE:

 

1. The group is focused on the Holy Gitaji, therefore, only

responses which further clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will be

posted.

 

2. Making reference of Gitaji shloka is highly encouraged - at least

once in the response. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or

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6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other

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7. Complete reproduction of texts from any book is strongly

discouraged, however references may be made of the book or author

(but not links to other sites).

 

8. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone

number, address etc.

 

9. Please do not address the response to a particular individual

since the message is going to the entire group.

 

10. Due to the large readership, only those responses will be posted

which are in line with the general philosophy of taking Shrimad

Bhagavad Gita as the reference.

 

11. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if content

is unclear for distribution or not directly related to the question

being asked.

 

12. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth,

westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use of only

Sanskrit words, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit

bracketed wherever possible.

 

MODERATOR

Ram Ram

[Guest guest]

Hari Om

 

SORRY SADHAKS ! RESENDING WITH CORRECTIONS... DUE TO ERROR IN

PREVIOUS POSTING. Please ignore previous message

 

Re Saadhak Mike's Query

 

In this answer I will give substance of 2:12 only to begin with.

 

In this verse, the unity or similarness of " God " and " jeeva " (You,

me, they, he ... self ...soul existing in each one of us) is

described. God says that " You, me and these kings " they are separate

only when seen with reference to the bodies, but if you consider

" existence " they are one, only. The bodies were not there in past,

and shall not remain in future. But the existence of " svaroop "

(Self) was there in the past, shall also remain in future. Needless

to say it is very well there in the present. When these bodies were

not there then also, the existence (of you, me and these kings-God

and all of us) was there, when these bodies will not be there then

also existence will be there. There is nothing in this universe

except " existence " . Therefore one should not grieve in relation to

bodies.

 

" You, me and these kings " - the meaning to say these words is that

the " existence " of God ( " satta " ) and " existence " of " jeeva " is one

and same only - in both there is same " chinmay " (divine, permanent)

existence is there. That " existence " alone is our true essence.

Therefore one should not grieve in relation to body.

 

An incident of " past " and of " future " appears far to us. The same

distance, the same farness is prevalent of an incidence of " present "

also. Just as we have no relationship or connection at present

with " past " or with " future " , similarly we have no relationship or

connection with " present " also. When there is no relationship, then

where is the difference among " past, present and future " ? Then,

where is " time " as far as our existence is concerned? Past, present

and future denote " time " only, and our existence in other words " we "

are beyond the same, beyond " time " ! You can divide " time " but our

form is " indivisible " . " When you consider the " body " to be

your form, and do not consider eternal existence to be your real

essence, then only can you see or perceive the difference among

past, present and future! "

 

Millions of " yugas " (eons or ages) may change but you as existence

will not change. You remain the same, because you are part of God.

On the other hand the " body " keeps changing, never remains static

even for a fraction of a second.

 

How are we beyond time? How to prove that? A simple logic! We " know "

past, present and future. These three divisions of " TIME " are

subject matter of our knowledge! Hence we are beyond " past, present

and future " ! It is law - you are separate from that thing which

comes in your sphere of knowledge!

 

Before we go to sleep, our experience suggests that " we are there at

present " . After getting up from sleep our experience is " we are

there at present " . Then in the state of deep sleep also - " we are

there at present " ! In deep sleep there was absence of " tools of

knowing " - there was no absence of ourselves!

 

In deep sleep hence the existence is very well there. Where

is " TIME " at that point? Do you feel " time " in deep sleep? At the

same time you are very well existing in deep sleep also. The

perception of " time " at that point is absent. But you never

perceive your absence.

 

Therefore I replied that you were right, Mike in your observing-

" ...... Beyond that was the ever present source " . In a movie

running in a cinema hall, there is past and future scenes. But where

is past and future for the projection screen behind the projected

scenery? It is Ever present !

 

You are right therefore in observing that - " all we perceive as

existence......existed in Time but beyond that was the ever present

source " .

 

Should you need more clarification please do write.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

 

--

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

 

This verse 2:12(none of us were never non-existent....) is very

essence of Gita along with 2:16 (That which IS, never ceases to be

and that which is NOT, never comes into Being and the seers know

this Truth).

 

The Lord has pointed to our true identity which has to be other than

body-mind-intellect-ego and things we know. Everything known through

mind is perishable so we cannot be those. We have to be The One

knower though unknowable by our own instrument! What a Divine

Mystery! But the good news is we can realize it.

 

The reality of the world including all of us sentients and

insentients lies in its ever Beingness in whatever names and forms

they may appear, in whatver times and places they appear. Names-

forms are individual existences of ONE Absolute Existence just as

waves are constantly arising and broken down again and again but

water(Ocean) cannot be non-existent. Reality of each wave is 100%

Ocean(one touches Ocean when one touches waves). Thus Ocean has

Being while waves have existences relative to Ocean.

 

Similarly Lord says we all as that Absolute Being like an Ocean,

were always here(or everywhere, and nowhere, in otherword not

located in space). However we continue to appear and disappear as

separate body-minds separated only by a fabric of space and time

(maya)! It is easy to see waves-ocean analogy here, but the Being

that " we are " cannot be seen or captured by mind, our only

instrument of cognition, seems to be our difficulty.

 

Nevertheless That Being is our experience right now as

Consciousness. Aren't we conscious of our being? We cannot show /

produce an evidence of our being as some thing perceived by mind

like things of the world, but we intuitively know we ARE and hence

it is Self-Evident Self. We just know we ARE and it is very unique

Experience unlike all other experiences and also our the most

CERTAIN Experience by which we can validate all other fleeting

experiences! This Experience is the Subject Knowing Itself by Itself

for Itself (Apperception), which is SUBJECTIVITY IN ITSELF! It is

not Subject relative to objects, it is the total absence of all

objectivity!

 

Let us realize that through the study of Gita by all means

indicated at our disposals!

 

Namaskars.

 

Pratap Bhatt

 

Hi Mike

What is termed THE WORD is the first vibration that arises in

Stillness (the Source). All that appears as manifest reality is a

variation on this one vibration vibrating at higher or lower levels.

All creation is therefore only the Word manifest. Clearly then all

apparent separate beings are no other than this One Word appearing

as the apparent separate many. Everything that exists is the Source

manifesting, all is Stillness only.

 

You and I and others are no other than the One manifesting as the

apparent many.

 

With Love Avasa

Adrian Meyers

 

 

Dear Sadak,

 

Bagavan has said in Maha Pralaya everything gets destroyed and the

athman " Self " in all beings abide in ME. Once again the creation

process starts and everything manifests from Me. This concept Sri

Vishnu explains and shows how it works to Markandeya Rishi. The

Upanashids and Vedas say that this is going on from times

immemorable. So all of us one day (judgement day) on Maha Pralaya

disappear and take refuge in Sri Vishnu. From Nabi of Sri Vishnu

comes Brahma, Vedas, creation etc. Then all of us appear. Again Maha

Pralata and we disappear. So there is never a time we never existed.

Only our equipment body appears and disappears. The earth thus went

comes into existence time framed for 4 yugas. Longest is Sat Yug and

shortest is Kaliyug. One can get the exact number of years of each

yug from PANCHANGAM (astrological book). Why this circle? answer is

lengthy.

 

B.Sathyanarayan

 

 

, " sadhak_insight "

<sadhak_insight wrote:

>

> -Shree Hari-

>

> I have a question:

>

> Extending from Bhagavad Gita 2.12----Never was there a time when I

> did not exist, nor you, nor all these kings; nor in the future

shall

> any of us cease to be.

>

> Reading the above reminded me of a conversation I had with a young

> priest, I was explaining my view of 'The Word', and how I sensed

that

> all we perceive as existence including The Creator i.e. The Word

> existed in Time but beyond that was the ever present source. He

> exclaimed ha! You mean The Word is God in time.

>

> It seems to me this a somewhat universal concept. Perhaps I am out

of

> the starting blocks a little early, but maybe some good person can

> give me the Bhagavad Gita wisdom on this, (I am sure its there).

>

> With respects and Divine Love.

>

> Mike

> (Mike Keenor)

>

> GUIDELINES FOR POSTING A RESPONSE:

>

> 1. The group is focused on the Holy Gitaji, therefore, only

> responses which further clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will

be

> posted.

>

> 2. Making reference of Gitaji shloka is highly encouraged - at

least

> once in the response. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or

> other scriptures to substantiate your response.

>

> 3. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting

> sadhaka's time. Under no circustance the answer should exceed say

> one page at the most (500 words or so).

>

> 4. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the

> extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas

>

> 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only.

>

> 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other

> organizations.

>

> 7. Complete reproduction of texts from any book is strongly

> discouraged, however references may be made of the book or author

> (but not links to other sites).

>

> 8. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone

> number, address etc.

>

> 9. Please do not address the response to a particular individual

> since the message is going to the entire group.

>

> 10. Due to the large readership, only those responses will be

posted

> which are in line with the general philosophy of taking Shrimad

> Bhagavad Gita as the reference.

>

> 11. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if

content

> is unclear for distribution or not directly related to the

question

> being asked.

>

> 12. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth,

> westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use of only

> Sanskrit words, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit

> bracketed wherever possible.

>

> MODERATOR

> Ram Ram

>

[Guest guest]

Hari Om

 

Great Adrian! And that vibration ..... That sound ....that

WORD ...... as per Hindu Sanatan Dharma was " A U M " ..... " O M. " !

 

You are right when you say -

" You and I and others are no other than the One manifesting as the

apparent many " .

 

From the stillness came the sound......which is effect of ether (

sky ) Subtler than sky is " mind " (mann). Subtler than mind

is " intellect " . Subtler than that is " I " (ego,Individuality). In the

regime of " nature " the ego is the subtlest!

 

That " I " in fact is " existence " - when individuality is removed.

(Aham Brahmasmi - I am Brahma ... I am God ) Remove " I " and what

remains is God ! " Only existence " . Thus It becomes common and same

for all - one manifesting as many.

 

Sky is the cause of " air " . Air thus is grosser than sky. Air is the

cause of " fire " . Fire is the cause of " water " . Water is the cause

of " earth " . Thus you have 8 elements of Nature. Ego, Intellect,

Mind, Sky, Air, Fire, Water and earth ( read Gita 7: 4 and 5)

 

Your existence - You are beyond them. So is God. Both are one only -

one manifesting as many.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

--------------------------------

The Word is God in time.

It is correct that Word is God in Time. It will be easy to

understand if we rephrase it as Word and Time are in God.

In Gita, Lord Krishna says " This whole universe is pervaded by Me,

in My unmanifest aspect. All the beings exist in Me but I do not

dwell in them " Ch 9 vs. 4. As soon as God manifests, time is

created. Time is a by-product of creation. The first manifestation

of God is the Word, " OM " not in literal meaning but the pure sound.

The duality cannot exist without time, hence the creation of time.

When pralaya takes place the duality ends and every thing merges in

to one. This is the reason the four Yugas start (time zero) from

that happening. Lord Krishna says, " All beings, O'Kaunteya go in to

My nature at the end of each Kalpa (Measure of Time) and again at

the beginning of next Kalpa (Measure of Time) I send them forth

again. Ch 9 vs. 7

 

In Hindu thought, there are 6 philosophies regarding the

relationship between the creator and the creation and each one

differs from the other with some modification. Gita is the only

scripture, which addresses all of them and provides a consolidated

version of all six..

 

Manmohan Sehgal

 

 

Regarding Mike's query

It may also be explained here that there are two types of worlds :

satya and mithya. What remains unchanged and everchanged is the

satya and whatever changes or reels into the cycle of life and birth

is mithya. Brahmeva satyam jaganmitha also points out these two

things. This visible world and physical bodies always change, so

they belong to the mithya world. The concept of time also belong to

this mithya world. The cocept of past present and future also belong

to this mithya world. This prakriti undergoes the change of

visibility and unvisibility. Its visibility is called life and

unvisibility is called death. So the entire Prakriti belong to the

mithya world. But God and souls they remain unchanged all the times.

They are neither born (become visible) nor die (become unvisible).

So they belong to the Satya world. Sri Krishna wants to say that as

the member of the satya world we are always there irrespective of

the time. But as the member of mithya world we are present sometimes

and become absent at another time. But the cycle of life and death

is also eternal. As such world cannot be God in time but visible

world is the mithya and as such cannot exist all the times. On the

other hand, God and souls exist all the time.

 

Ravi Arya

-------------------------------

Time is a rate of changes in perception.

And changes, occur in perception

Once changes or fluctuation in perception stop, then time is zero.

Such as before birth, in sleep and upon death, changes occure but

not in our perception

and thus, time also does not exist.

A meditating mind is thus, free from fluctuation of mind,

and thus is free from bondage of time.

 

Historical time is perception by others' information

These collection of history is the word

Words extend our perception beyond life, and

time becomes infinity

 

Words of the Bhagwat gita expand our mind and dissolve perception

and non perception

and reality of time between zero to infinite is thus comprensible.

 

Knowledge is thus proved as non sensory. Time is object of mind, so

is the word.

regards

K G

(Krishna Gopal)

 

-------------------------------

Is there a word that is more appropriate, as there is no word such

as " God " in the Gita ?

 

Classyoga

 

-------------------------------

, " sadhak_insight "

<sadhak_insight wrote:

>

> Hari Om

>

> SORRY SADHAKS ! RESENDING WITH CORRECTIONS... DUE TO ERROR IN

> PREVIOUS POSTING. Please ignore previous message

>

> Re Saadhak Mike's Query

>

> In this answer I will give substance of 2:12 only to begin with.

>

> In this verse, the unity or similarness of " God " and " jeeva " (You,

> me, they, he ... self ...soul existing in each one of us) is

> described. God says that " You, me and these kings " they are

separate

> only when seen with reference to the bodies, but if you consider

> " existence " they are one, only. The bodies were not there in past,

> and shall not remain in future. But the existence of " svaroop "

> (Self) was there in the past, shall also remain in future. Needless

> to say it is very well there in the present. When these bodies were

> not there then also, the existence (of you, me and these kings-God

> and all of us) was there, when these bodies will not be there then

> also existence will be there. There is nothing in this universe

> except " existence " . Therefore one should not grieve in relation to

> bodies.

>

> " You, me and these kings " - the meaning to say these words is that

> the " existence " of God ( " satta " ) and " existence " of " jeeva " is one

> and same only - in both there is same " chinmay " (divine, permanent)

> existence is there. That " existence " alone is our true essence.

> Therefore one should not grieve in relation to body.

>

> An incident of " past " and of " future " appears far to us. The same

> distance, the same farness is prevalent of an incidence

of " present "

> also. Just as we have no relationship or connection at present

> with " past " or with " future " , similarly we have no relationship or

> connection with " present " also. When there is no relationship, then

> where is the difference among " past, present and future " ? Then,

> where is " time " as far as our existence is concerned? Past, present

> and future denote " time " only, and our existence in other

words " we "

> are beyond the same, beyond " time " ! You can divide " time " but our

> form is " indivisible " . " When you consider the " body " to be

> your form, and do not consider eternal existence to be your real

> essence, then only can you see or perceive the difference among

> past, present and future! "

>

> Millions of " yugas " (eons or ages) may change but you as existence

> will not change. You remain the same, because you are part of God.

> On the other hand the " body " keeps changing, never remains static

> even for a fraction of a second.

>

> How are we beyond time? How to prove that? A simple logic!

We " know "

> past, present and future. These three divisions of " TIME " are

> subject matter of our knowledge! Hence we are beyond " past, present

> and future " ! It is law - you are separate from that thing which

> comes in your sphere of knowledge!

>

> Before we go to sleep, our experience suggests that " we are there

at

> present " . After getting up from sleep our experience is " we are

> there at present " . Then in the state of deep sleep also - " we are

> there at present " ! In deep sleep there was absence of " tools of

> knowing " - there was no absence of ourselves!

>

> In deep sleep hence the existence is very well there. Where

> is " TIME " at that point? Do you feel " time " in deep sleep? At the

> same time you are very well existing in deep sleep also. The

> perception of " time " at that point is absent. But you never

> perceive your absence.

>

> Therefore I replied that you were right, Mike in your observing-

> " ...... Beyond that was the ever present source " . In a movie

> running in a cinema hall, there is past and future scenes. But

where

> is past and future for the projection screen behind the projected

> scenery? It is Ever present !

>

> You are right therefore in observing that - " all we perceive as

> existence......existed in Time but beyond that was the ever present

> source " .

>

> Should you need more clarification please do write.

>

> Jai Shree Krishna

>

> Vyas N B

>

> -

-

> Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

>

> This verse 2:12(none of us were never non-existent....) is very

> essence of Gita along with 2:16 (That which IS, never ceases to be

> and that which is NOT, never comes into Being and the seers know

> this Truth).

>

> The Lord has pointed to our true identity which has to be other

than

> body-mind-intellect-ego and things we know. Everything known

through

> mind is perishable so we cannot be those. We have to be The One

> knower though unknowable by our own instrument! What a Divine

> Mystery! But the good news is we can realize it.

>

> The reality of the world including all of us sentients and

> insentients lies in its ever Beingness in whatever names and forms

> they may appear, in whatver times and places they appear. Names-

> forms are individual existences of ONE Absolute Existence just as

> waves are constantly arising and broken down again and again but

> water(Ocean) cannot be non-existent. Reality of each wave is 100%

> Ocean(one touches Ocean when one touches waves). Thus Ocean has

> Being while waves have existences relative to Ocean.

>

> Similarly Lord says we all as that Absolute Being like an Ocean,

> were always here(or everywhere, and nowhere, in otherword not

> located in space). However we continue to appear and disappear as

> separate body-minds separated only by a fabric of space and time

> (maya)! It is easy to see waves-ocean analogy here, but the Being

> that " we are " cannot be seen or captured by mind, our only

> instrument of cognition, seems to be our difficulty.

>

> Nevertheless That Being is our experience right now as

> Consciousness. Aren't we conscious of our being? We cannot show /

> produce an evidence of our being as some thing perceived by mind

> like things of the world, but we intuitively know we ARE and hence

> it is Self-Evident Self. We just know we ARE and it is very unique

> Experience unlike all other experiences and also our the most

> CERTAIN Experience by which we can validate all other fleeting

> experiences! This Experience is the Subject Knowing Itself by

Itself

> for Itself (Apperception), which is SUBJECTIVITY IN ITSELF! It is

> not Subject relative to objects, it is the total absence of all

> objectivity!

>

> Let us realize that through the study of Gita by all means

> indicated at our disposals!

>

> Namaskars.

>

> Pratap Bhatt

>

> Hi Mike

> What is termed THE WORD is the first vibration that arises in

> Stillness (the Source). All that appears as manifest reality is a

> variation on this one vibration vibrating at higher or lower

levels.

> All creation is therefore only the Word manifest. Clearly then all

> apparent separate beings are no other than this One Word appearing

> as the apparent separate many. Everything that exists is the Source

> manifesting, all is Stillness only.

>

> You and I and others are no other than the One manifesting as the

> apparent many.

>

> With Love Avasa

> Adrian Meyers

>

>

> Dear Sadak,

>

> Bagavan has said in Maha Pralaya everything gets destroyed and the

> athman " Self " in all beings abide in ME. Once again the creation

> process starts and everything manifests from Me. This concept Sri

> Vishnu explains and shows how it works to Markandeya Rishi. The

> Upanashids and Vedas say that this is going on from times

> immemorable. So all of us one day (judgement day) on Maha Pralaya

> disappear and take refuge in Sri Vishnu. From Nabi of Sri Vishnu

> comes Brahma, Vedas, creation etc. Then all of us appear. Again

Maha

> Pralata and we disappear. So there is never a time we never

existed.

> Only our equipment body appears and disappears. The earth thus went

> comes into existence time framed for 4 yugas. Longest is Sat Yug

and

> shortest is Kaliyug. One can get the exact number of years of each

> yug from PANCHANGAM (astrological book). Why this circle? answer is

> lengthy.

>

> B.Sathyanarayan

>

>

> , " sadhak_insight "

> <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> >

> > -Shree Hari-

> >

> > I have a question:

> >

> > Extending from Bhagavad Gita 2.12----Never was there a time when

I

> > did not exist, nor you, nor all these kings; nor in the future

> shall

> > any of us cease to be.

> >

> > Reading the above reminded me of a conversation I had with a

young

> > priest, I was explaining my view of 'The Word', and how I sensed

> that

> > all we perceive as existence including The Creator i.e. The Word

> > existed in Time but beyond that was the ever present source. He

> > exclaimed ha! You mean The Word is God in time.

> >

> > It seems to me this a somewhat universal concept. Perhaps I am

out

> of

> > the starting blocks a little early, but maybe some good person

can

> > give me the Bhagavad Gita wisdom on this, (I am sure its there).

> >

> > With respects and Divine Love.

> >

> > Mike

> > (Mike Keenor)

> >

> > GUIDELINES FOR POSTING A RESPONSE:

> >

> > 1. The group is focused on the Holy Gitaji, therefore, only

> > responses which further clarify the understanding of Gitaji,

will

> be

> > posted.

> >

> > 2. Making reference of Gitaji shloka is highly encouraged - at

> least

> > once in the response. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or

> > other scriptures to substantiate your response.

> >

> > 3. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting

> > sadhaka's time. Under no circustance the answer should exceed

say

> > one page at the most (500 words or so).

> >

> > 4. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the

> > extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas

> >

> > 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only.

> >

> > 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other

> > organizations.

> >

> > 7. Complete reproduction of texts from any book is strongly

> > discouraged, however references may be made of the book or

author

> > (but not links to other sites).

> >

> > 8. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone

> > number, address etc.

> >

> > 9. Please do not address the response to a particular individual

> > since the message is going to the entire group.

> >

> > 10. Due to the large readership, only those responses will be

> posted

> > which are in line with the general philosophy of taking Shrimad

> > Bhagavad Gita as the reference.

> >

> > 11. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if

> content

> > is unclear for distribution or not directly related to the

> question

> > being asked.

> >

> > 12. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth,

> > westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use of only

> > Sanskrit words, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit

> > bracketed wherever possible.

> >

> > MODERATOR

> > Ram Ram

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Loving Divine,

Pranam.

 

What a beautiful revelation - '...The Word existed in Time but

beyond that was the ever present source. He exclaimed ha! You mean

The Word is God in time.' Yes, it is indeed! Beautiful answers

have been given (regarding OMmmmmm... sound - it is all pervading in

the universe, the sound of sounds or from where the sound uttered by

us is created) so i will not repeat any of it. Just wanted to point

out to another verse (sloka) reflecting similar thoughts - in the

Bhagavad Gita - Gita 10:20, Lord says, I am Aatma (Soul/

Consciousness) situated in all beings. In them I am the beginning,

middle and end! Let's look within, the Source (Soul/Consciousness)

is present in all times - in the beginning, as a creator - Brahmaa

(past), in the middle as a sustainer - Vishnu (present) & at the end

as a dissolution - Shiva (future). No word, no creation! Whatever

we utter, related thoughts have to be there. Whatever we think, we

construct sentences. Before we construct a sentence, there are

words (if it doesn't exist, we create one!). Before the existence

of a word, an alphabet has to exist. Before alphabet is pronounced,

pure sound has to exist and that pure sound is Ommmmm... When one

concentrates on listening to this sound (not uttering but what is

present in this universe), one goes beyond sound, the source of

sound, which is present in all times - as we perceive the time to

be, but if we end our perception, we realize that this source is

present even beyond time!

 

Thanks,

humble regards,

always at Thy Lotus Feet

 

Manjula Patel

 

-------------------------------

Vyasji brought out the essence of the cause of the drama of life

that is played out with eight elements of nature. Adi Sankara in

Dakshina Murthy Strotram puts it slightly different eight " bhuh

ambha anala anila ambar maharnatha himansu puman' Meaning earth,

water, fire, air, space, Sun, Moon and Ego as the eight fold. These

give rise to all the chara and achara (moving and non-moving) jagat

(world).

 

It is so facinating how our philosophy is so deep in rational

thinking, I am somewhat astonished when some one asks is this

scientific? The most scientific inquiry ever conducted into the

spiritual and phenomenal world is by the Ancient Seers of India

whose results are codified and called " Sanatana Dharma. " Taittiriya

Upanishad talks about the same. Gita the essence of all Upanishads

as mentioned below also talks about the same.

 

B. Vempaty

--------------------------------

 

, " sadhak_insight "

<sadhak_insight wrote:

>

> Hari Om

>

> Great Adrian! And that vibration ..... That sound ....that

> WORD ...... as per Hindu Sanatan Dharma was " A U M " ..... " O M. " !

>

> You are right when you say -

> " You and I and others are no other than the One manifesting as the

> apparent many " .

>

> From the stillness came the sound......which is effect of ether (

> sky ) Subtler than sky is " mind " (mann). Subtler than mind

> is " intellect " . Subtler than that is " I " (ego,Individuality). In

the

> regime of " nature " the ego is the subtlest!

>

> That " I " in fact is " existence " - when individuality is removed.

> (Aham Brahmasmi - I am Brahma ... I am God ) Remove " I " and what

> remains is God ! " Only existence " . Thus It becomes common and same

> for all - one manifesting as many.

>

> Sky is the cause of " air " . Air thus is grosser than sky. Air is the

> cause of " fire " . Fire is the cause of " water " . Water is the cause

> of " earth " . Thus you have 8 elements of Nature. Ego, Intellect,

> Mind, Sky, Air, Fire, Water and earth ( read Gita 7: 4 and 5)

>

> Your existence - You are beyond them. So is God. Both are one

only -

> one manifesting as many.

>

> Jai Shree Krishna

>

> Vyas N B

> --------------------------------

> The Word is God in time.

> It is correct that Word is God in Time. It will be easy to

> understand if we rephrase it as Word and Time are in God.

> In Gita, Lord Krishna says " This whole universe is pervaded by Me,

> in My unmanifest aspect. All the beings exist in Me but I do not

> dwell in them " Ch 9 vs. 4. As soon as God manifests, time is

> created. Time is a by-product of creation. The first manifestation

> of God is the Word, " OM " not in literal meaning but the pure sound.

> The duality cannot exist without time, hence the creation of time.

> When pralaya takes place the duality ends and every thing merges in

> to one. This is the reason the four Yugas start (time zero) from

> that happening. Lord Krishna says, " All beings, O'Kaunteya go in

to

> My nature at the end of each Kalpa (Measure of Time) and again at

> the beginning of next Kalpa (Measure of Time) I send them forth

> again. Ch 9 vs. 7

>

> In Hindu thought, there are 6 philosophies regarding the

> relationship between the creator and the creation and each one

> differs from the other with some modification. Gita is the only

> scripture, which addresses all of them and provides a consolidated

> version of all six..

>

> Manmohan Sehgal

>

>

> Regarding Mike's query

> It may also be explained here that there are two types of worlds :

> satya and mithya. What remains unchanged and everchanged is the

> satya and whatever changes or reels into the cycle of life and

birth

> is mithya. Brahmeva satyam jaganmitha also points out these two

> things. This visible world and physical bodies always change, so

> they belong to the mithya world. The concept of time also belong to

> this mithya world. The cocept of past present and future also

belong

> to this mithya world. This prakriti undergoes the change of

> visibility and unvisibility. Its visibility is called life and

> unvisibility is called death. So the entire Prakriti belong to the

> mithya world. But God and souls they remain unchanged all the

times.

> They are neither born (become visible) nor die (become unvisible).

> So they belong to the Satya world. Sri Krishna wants to say that as

> the member of the satya world we are always there irrespective of

> the time. But as the member of mithya world we are present

sometimes

> and become absent at another time. But the cycle of life and death

> is also eternal. As such world cannot be God in time but visible

> world is the mithya and as such cannot exist all the times. On the

> other hand, God and souls exist all the time.

>

> Ravi Arya

> -------------------------------

> Time is a rate of changes in perception.

> And changes, occur in perception

> Once changes or fluctuation in perception stop, then time is zero.

> Such as before birth, in sleep and upon death, changes occure but

> not in our perception

> and thus, time also does not exist.

> A meditating mind is thus, free from fluctuation of mind,

> and thus is free from bondage of time.

>

> Historical time is perception by others' information

> These collection of history is the word

> Words extend our perception beyond life, and

> time becomes infinity

>

> Words of the Bhagwat gita expand our mind and dissolve perception

> and non perception

> and reality of time between zero to infinite is thus comprensible.

>

> Knowledge is thus proved as non sensory. Time is object of mind, so

> is the word.

> regards

> K G

> (Krishna Gopal)

>

> -------------------------------

> Is there a word that is more appropriate, as there is no word such

> as " God " in the Gita ?

>

> Classyoga

>

> -------------------------------

> , " sadhak_insight "

> <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> >

> > Hari Om

> >

> > SORRY SADHAKS ! RESENDING WITH CORRECTIONS... DUE TO ERROR IN

> > PREVIOUS POSTING. Please ignore previous message

> >

> > Re Saadhak Mike's Query

> >

> > In this answer I will give substance of 2:12 only to begin with.

> >

> > In this verse, the unity or similarness of " God " and " jeeva "

(You,

> > me, they, he ... self ...soul existing in each one of us) is

> > described. God says that " You, me and these kings " they are

> separate

> > only when seen with reference to the bodies, but if you consider

> > " existence " they are one, only. The bodies were not there in

past,

> > and shall not remain in future. But the existence of " svaroop "

> > (Self) was there in the past, shall also remain in future.

Needless

> > to say it is very well there in the present. When these bodies

were

> > not there then also, the existence (of you, me and these kings-

God

> > and all of us) was there, when these bodies will not be there

then

> > also existence will be there. There is nothing in this universe

> > except " existence " . Therefore one should not grieve in relation

to

> > bodies.

> >

> > " You, me and these kings " - the meaning to say these words is

that

> > the " existence " of God ( " satta " ) and " existence " of " jeeva " is

one

> > and same only - in both there is same " chinmay " (divine,

permanent)

> > existence is there. That " existence " alone is our true essence.

> > Therefore one should not grieve in relation to body.

> >

> > An incident of " past " and of " future " appears far to us. The same

> > distance, the same farness is prevalent of an incidence

> of " present "

> > also. Just as we have no relationship or connection at present

> > with " past " or with " future " , similarly we have no relationship

or

> > connection with " present " also. When there is no relationship,

then

> > where is the difference among " past, present and future " ? Then,

> > where is " time " as far as our existence is concerned? Past,

present

> > and future denote " time " only, and our existence in other

> words " we "

> > are beyond the same, beyond " time " ! You can divide " time " but our

> > form is " indivisible " . " When you consider the " body " to be

> > your form, and do not consider eternal existence to be your real

> > essence, then only can you see or perceive the difference among

> > past, present and future! "

> >

> > Millions of " yugas " (eons or ages) may change but you as

existence

> > will not change. You remain the same, because you are part of

God.

> > On the other hand the " body " keeps changing, never remains static

> > even for a fraction of a second.

> >

> > How are we beyond time? How to prove that? A simple logic!

> We " know "

> > past, present and future. These three divisions of " TIME " are

> > subject matter of our knowledge! Hence we are beyond " past,

present

> > and future " ! It is law - you are separate from that thing which

> > comes in your sphere of knowledge!

> >

> > Before we go to sleep, our experience suggests that " we are there

> at

> > present " . After getting up from sleep our experience is " we are

> > there at present " . Then in the state of deep sleep also - " we are

> > there at present " ! In deep sleep there was absence of " tools of

> > knowing " - there was no absence of ourselves!

> >

> > In deep sleep hence the existence is very well there. Where

> > is " TIME " at that point? Do you feel " time " in deep sleep? At the

> > same time you are very well existing in deep sleep also. The

> > perception of " time " at that point is absent. But you never

> > perceive your absence.

> >

> > Therefore I replied that you were right, Mike in your observing-

> > " ...... Beyond that was the ever present source " . In a movie

> > running in a cinema hall, there is past and future scenes. But

> where

> > is past and future for the projection screen behind the projected

> > scenery? It is Ever present !

> >

> > You are right therefore in observing that - " all we perceive as

> > existence......existed in Time but beyond that was the ever

present

> > source " .

> >

> > Should you need more clarification please do write.

> >

> > Jai Shree Krishna

> >

> > Vyas N B

> >

> > --------------------------------

--

> -

> > Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

> >

> > This verse 2:12(none of us were never non-existent....) is very

> > essence of Gita along with 2:16 (That which IS, never ceases to

be

> > and that which is NOT, never comes into Being and the seers know

> > this Truth).

> >

> > The Lord has pointed to our true identity which has to be other

> than

> > body-mind-intellect-ego and things we know. Everything known

> through

> > mind is perishable so we cannot be those. We have to be The One

> > knower though unknowable by our own instrument! What a Divine

> > Mystery! But the good news is we can realize it.

> >

> > The reality of the world including all of us sentients and

> > insentients lies in its ever Beingness in whatever names and

forms

> > they may appear, in whatver times and places they appear. Names-

> > forms are individual existences of ONE Absolute Existence just as

> > waves are constantly arising and broken down again and again but

> > water(Ocean) cannot be non-existent. Reality of each wave is 100%

> > Ocean(one touches Ocean when one touches waves). Thus Ocean has

> > Being while waves have existences relative to Ocean.

> >

> > Similarly Lord says we all as that Absolute Being like an Ocean,

> > were always here(or everywhere, and nowhere, in otherword not

> > located in space). However we continue to appear and disappear as

> > separate body-minds separated only by a fabric of space and time

> > (maya)! It is easy to see waves-ocean analogy here, but the Being

> > that " we are " cannot be seen or captured by mind, our only

> > instrument of cognition, seems to be our difficulty.

> >

> > Nevertheless That Being is our experience right now as

> > Consciousness. Aren't we conscious of our being? We cannot show /

> > produce an evidence of our being as some thing perceived by mind

> > like things of the world, but we intuitively know we ARE and

hence

> > it is Self-Evident Self. We just know we ARE and it is very

unique

> > Experience unlike all other experiences and also our the most

> > CERTAIN Experience by which we can validate all other fleeting

> > experiences! This Experience is the Subject Knowing Itself by

> Itself

> > for Itself (Apperception), which is SUBJECTIVITY IN ITSELF! It is

> > not Subject relative to objects, it is the total absence of all

> > objectivity!

> >

> > Let us realize that through the study of Gita by all means

> > indicated at our disposals!

> >

> > Namaskars.

> >

> > Pratap Bhatt

> > --------------------------------

-

> > Hi Mike

> > What is termed THE WORD is the first vibration that arises in

> > Stillness (the Source). All that appears as manifest reality is a

> > variation on this one vibration vibrating at higher or lower

> levels.

> > All creation is therefore only the Word manifest. Clearly then

all

> > apparent separate beings are no other than this One Word

appearing

> > as the apparent separate many. Everything that exists is the

Source

> > manifesting, all is Stillness only.

> >

> > You and I and others are no other than the One manifesting as the

> > apparent many.

> >

> > With Love Avasa

> > Adrian Meyers

> >

> > --------------------------------

-

> > Dear Sadak,

> >

> > Bagavan has said in Maha Pralaya everything gets destroyed and

the

> > athman " Self " in all beings abide in ME. Once again the creation

> > process starts and everything manifests from Me. This concept Sri

> > Vishnu explains and shows how it works to Markandeya Rishi. The

> > Upanashids and Vedas say that this is going on from times

> > immemorable. So all of us one day (judgement day) on Maha Pralaya

> > disappear and take refuge in Sri Vishnu. From Nabi of Sri Vishnu

> > comes Brahma, Vedas, creation etc. Then all of us appear. Again

> Maha

> > Pralata and we disappear. So there is never a time we never

> existed.

> > Only our equipment body appears and disappears. The earth thus

went

> > comes into existence time framed for 4 yugas. Longest is Sat Yug

> and

> > shortest is Kaliyug. One can get the exact number of years of

each

> > yug from PANCHANGAM (astrological book). Why this circle? answer

is

> > lengthy.

> >

> > B.Sathyanarayan

> >

> >

> > , " sadhak_insight "

> > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > >

> > > -Shree Hari-

> > >

> > > I have a question:

> > >

> > > Extending from Bhagavad Gita 2.12----Never was there a time

when

> I

> > > did not exist, nor you, nor all these kings; nor in the future

> > shall

> > > any of us cease to be.

> > >

> > > Reading the above reminded me of a conversation I had with a

> young

> > > priest, I was explaining my view of 'The Word', and how I

sensed

> > that

> > > all we perceive as existence including The Creator i.e. The

Word

> > > existed in Time but beyond that was the ever present source. He

> > > exclaimed ha! You mean The Word is God in time.

> > >

> > > It seems to me this a somewhat universal concept. Perhaps I am

> out

> > of

> > > the starting blocks a little early, but maybe some good person

> can

> > > give me the Bhagavad Gita wisdom on this, (I am sure its

there).

> > >

> > > With respects and Divine Love.

> > >

> > > Mike

> > > (Mike Keenor)

> > >

> > > GUIDELINES FOR POSTING A RESPONSE:

> > >

> > > 1. The group is focused on the Holy Gitaji, therefore, only

> > > responses which further clarify the understanding of Gitaji,

> will

> > be

> > > posted.

> > >

> > > 2. Making reference of Gitaji shloka is highly encouraged - at

> > least

> > > once in the response. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji

or

> > > other scriptures to substantiate your response.

> > >

> > > 3. Please be as concise and to the point as possible,

respecting

> > > sadhaka's time. Under no circustance the answer should exceed

> say

> > > one page at the most (500 words or so).

> > >

> > > 4. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to

the

> > > extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas

> > >

> > > 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only.

> > >

> > > 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other

> > > organizations.

> > >

> > > 7. Complete reproduction of texts from any book is strongly

> > > discouraged, however references may be made of the book or

> author

> > > (but not links to other sites).

> > >

> > > 8. Kindly do not include your personal information such as

phone

> > > number, address etc.

> > >

> > > 9. Please do not address the response to a particular

individual

> > > since the message is going to the entire group.

> > >

> > > 10. Due to the large readership, only those responses will be

> > posted

> > > which are in line with the general philosophy of taking Shrimad

> > > Bhagavad Gita as the reference.

> > >

> > > 11. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if

> > content

> > > is unclear for distribution or not directly related to the

> > question

> > > being asked.

> > >

> > > 12. Please respond taking into consideration the novices,

youth,

> > > westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use of

only

> > > Sanskrit words, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit

> > > bracketed wherever possible.

> > >

> > > MODERATOR

> > > Ram Ram

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hari Om

 

Re Saadhak Mike's query

 

While I addressed Mike's Query as to whether beyond WORD and TIME

there is ever present source. But then there was observation of

young priest also to be addressed - " You mean the Word is God in

Time " .

 

Whether the God is there in World or the World is there in God ?

Whether the Word is God in Time or in God the Word and Time are

there. A similar query arises in Gita also.

 

In Gita 9:4 and 5 - The God says -

 

" All this universe is pervaded by Me in My unmanifest form. All being

abide in Me, but I do not abide in them. Nor does the whole creation

vest in Me; look at my divine Yoga(Power). Being the creator and

sustainer of beings , I , do not in reality , dwell in them " !

 

In Gita 7:12 - The Lord says -

 

" Whatever entities are born of sattva (mode of goodness), of rajas

(mode of activity or passion) and tamas ( mode of inertia or

ignorance), know them all, as evolved from Me; yet still neither I

am in them, nor are they in Me.

 

Now the contradictory statements are explained by means of an

illustration. The Lord, abides in the world and the world abides in

the Lord; the Lord does not abide in the world, and the world does

not abide in the Lord. Waves, are in water and water is in waves,

but waves have no existence besides water. Thus, the Lord abides in

the world and the world abides in the Lord! B U T, if we do not

accept the independent existence of waves, because they have no

existence, besides water, there is neither water in waves, nor waves

in water, there remains only water which appears as waves.

Similarly , neither God abides in the world, nor does the world

abide in the God; the world has no existence of its own, besides the

Lord, VASUDEVAH SARVAM - (Gita 7 : 19 - All this is God).

 

That means all are evolved from Him. He is all in all; the cause and

the effect, which seems distinct. But, the effect has no separate and

independent existence, from the cause. As in ornaments made of gold,

there is nothing else, besides gold, similarly the universe evolved

from God is nothing else, besides the God!

 

Actually, there is nothing else, besides Him. When there is only one

element then who will be there in whom and who shall not be there in

whom?

 

You were right, Mike in your statement.

The priest's statement has been addressed as above. Awaiting any

further doubts or clarification on this subject.

 

It is a divine experience to be with such a learned group - Gita Talk Group..

What we are doing in fact is " Jnana Yajna " within the

meaning of Gitaji. Each participant, each reader is giving " ahuti "

in this sacrifice(Yajna). It is said that when two deepaks (oil

lamps) get together, each destroys the shadow beneath the another.

In our scriptures the importance of Saadhaks getting together and

deliberating upon God, His lila, His stories, His Gita, His devotees

is brought out in glorious terms. It is Bhakti (devotion)

undoubtedly.. It is Jnana (knowledge) also. And of course it

is " divya Karma " ( divine deed).. A Father undoubtedly becomes happy

when his children pay attention to him.

 

Let us keep deliberating, keep questioning, keep replying and keep

reading.

 

My respectful pranaam to all participants and readers.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

 

 

Dear sadaks,

 

A U M is Om generally known to all. Bagavan said in Geetha, " I am in

Aksharam - Akaram " . That is sound starting with A. The sound

AUM /OM. Pronouncing Om in certain frequency brings ones mind

focused on mind seeking GOD and simulteniously cuts off desires.

Once Kama (desire) goes, Krodha (Anger) goes. Bagavan referred

Kamayesu Krodhayesu etc six bad gunas.

 

Vishnu is independant of anything says Upanashids. Time has means

start and end otherwise the concept of time is not there.

 

God does not depend on time. Time is temporary for each and every

one in creation. Time span for man, animal, plant is fixed. There is

no time span for GOD as it is said in Vedas, GOD exists, existed,

will be existing (past present and future)

 

Means GOD is independant of TIME. Time can change vary etc. But God

does not change vary. Bagavan in Geetha says to Arjuna certain

words, " Kalpakalam and Anaadhikalam " . Means in time frame creation

comes and goes. But GOD remains not in time frame.

 

B. Sathyanarayan

--

namaskar

i would just like to thank you all for you continual writings

i study what you post every day

moksha

anne thakur

--

Hare Krsna,

Dandavats.....all glories to Sri guru and Gaurganga

 

I have been reading your insights for some time.

I appreciate the time to these questions. Many thanks for the direct, helpful,

and beautiufl realizations of your master.

 

Mahalaksmi Dasi

--

 

, " sadhak_insight "

<sadhak_insight wrote:

>

> Loving Divine,

> Pranam.

>

> What a beautiful revelation - '...The Word existed in Time but

> beyond that was the ever present source. He exclaimed ha! You mean

> The Word is God in time.' Yes, it is indeed! Beautiful answers

> have been given (regarding OMmmmmm... sound - it is all pervading

in the universe, the sound of sounds or from where the sound uttered

by

> us is created) so i will not repeat any of it. Just wanted to

point

> out to another verse (sloka) reflecting similar thoughts - in the

> Bhagavad Gita - Gita 10:20, Lord says, I am Aatma (Soul/

> Consciousness) situated in all beings. In them I am the beginning,

> middle and end! Let's look within, the Source

(Soul/Consciousness)

> is present in all times - in the beginning, as a creator - Brahmaa

> (past), in the middle as a sustainer - Vishnu (present) & at the

end

> as a dissolution - Shiva (future). No word, no creation! Whatever

> we utter, related thoughts have to be there. Whatever we think, we

> construct sentences. Before we construct a sentence, there are

> words (if it doesn't exist, we create one!). Before the existence

> of a word, an alphabet has to exist. Before alphabet is

pronounced,

> pure sound has to exist and that pure sound is Ommmmm... When one

> concentrates on listening to this sound (not uttering but what is

> present in this universe), one goes beyond sound, the source of

> sound, which is present in all times - as we perceive the time to

> be, but if we end our perception, we realize that this source is

> present even beyond time!

>

> Thanks,

> humble regards,

> always at Thy Lotus Feet

>

> Manjula Patel

>

> -------------------------------

> Vyasji brought out the essence of the cause of the drama of life

> that is played out with eight elements of nature. Adi Sankara in

> Dakshina Murthy Strotram puts it slightly different eight " bhuh

> ambha anala anila ambar maharnatha himansu puman' Meaning earth,

> water, fire, air, space, Sun, Moon and Ego as the eight fold.

These

> give rise to all the chara and achara (moving and non-moving)

jagat

> (world).

>

> It is so facinating how our philosophy is so deep in rational

> thinking, I am somewhat astonished when some one asks is this

> scientific? The most scientific inquiry ever conducted into the

> spiritual and phenomenal world is by the Ancient Seers of India

> whose results are codified and called " Sanatana Dharma. "

Taittiriya

> Upanishad talks about the same. Gita the essence of all

Upanishads

> as mentioned below also talks about the same.

>

> B. Vempaty

> --------------------------------

>

> , " sadhak_insight "

> <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> >

> > Hari Om

> >

> > Great Adrian! And that vibration ..... That sound ....that

> > WORD ...... as per Hindu Sanatan Dharma was " A U M " ..... " O

M. " !

> >

> > You are right when you say -

> > " You and I and others are no other than the One manifesting as

the

> > apparent many " .

> >

> > From the stillness came the sound......which is effect of ether (

> > sky ) Subtler than sky is " mind " (mann). Subtler than mind

> > is " intellect " . Subtler than that is " I " (ego,Individuality). In

> the

> > regime of " nature " the ego is the subtlest!

> >

> > That " I " in fact is " existence " - when individuality is removed.

> > (Aham Brahmasmi - I am Brahma ... I am God ) Remove " I " and what

> > remains is God ! " Only existence " . Thus It becomes common and

same

> > for all - one manifesting as many.

> >

> > Sky is the cause of " air " . Air thus is grosser than sky. Air is

the

> > cause of " fire " . Fire is the cause of " water " . Water is the cause

> > of " earth " . Thus you have 8 elements of Nature. Ego, Intellect,

> > Mind, Sky, Air, Fire, Water and earth ( read Gita 7: 4 and 5)

> >

> > Your existence - You are beyond them. So is God. Both are one

> only -

> > one manifesting as many.

> >

> > Jai Shree Krishna

> >

> > Vyas N B

> > --------------------------------

> > The Word is God in time.

> > It is correct that Word is God in Time. It will be easy to

> > understand if we rephrase it as Word and Time are in God.

> > In Gita, Lord Krishna says " This whole universe is pervaded by

Me,

> > in My unmanifest aspect. All the beings exist in Me but I do not

> > dwell in them " Ch 9 vs. 4. As soon as God manifests, time is

> > created. Time is a by-product of creation. The first

manifestation

> > of God is the Word, " OM " not in literal meaning but the pure

sound.

> > The duality cannot exist without time, hence the creation of

time.

> > When pralaya takes place the duality ends and every thing merges

in

> > to one. This is the reason the four Yugas start (time zero) from

> > that happening. Lord Krishna says, " All beings, O'Kaunteya go

in

> to

> > My nature at the end of each Kalpa (Measure of Time) and again at

> > the beginning of next Kalpa (Measure of Time) I send them forth

> > again. Ch 9 vs. 7

> >

> > In Hindu thought, there are 6 philosophies regarding the

> > relationship between the creator and the creation and each one

> > differs from the other with some modification. Gita is the only

> > scripture, which addresses all of them and provides a

consolidated

> > version of all six..

> >

> > Manmohan Sehgal

> > --------------------------------

-

> >

> > Regarding Mike's query

> > It may also be explained here that there are two types of

worlds :

> > satya and mithya. What remains unchanged and everchanged is the

> > satya and whatever changes or reels into the cycle of life and

> birth

> > is mithya. Brahmeva satyam jaganmitha also points out these two

> > things. This visible world and physical bodies always change, so

> > they belong to the mithya world. The concept of time also belong

to

> > this mithya world. The cocept of past present and future also

> belong

> > to this mithya world. This prakriti undergoes the change of

> > visibility and unvisibility. Its visibility is called life and

> > unvisibility is called death. So the entire Prakriti belong to

the

> > mithya world. But God and souls they remain unchanged all the

> times.

> > They are neither born (become visible) nor die (become

unvisible).

> > So they belong to the Satya world. Sri Krishna wants to say that

as

> > the member of the satya world we are always there irrespective of

> > the time. But as the member of mithya world we are present

> sometimes

> > and become absent at another time. But the cycle of life and

death

> > is also eternal. As such world cannot be God in time but visible

> > world is the mithya and as such cannot exist all the times. On

the

> > other hand, God and souls exist all the time.

> >

> > Ravi Arya

> > -------------------------------

> > Time is a rate of changes in perception.

> > And changes, occur in perception

> > Once changes or fluctuation in perception stop, then time is

zero.

> > Such as before birth, in sleep and upon death, changes occure but

> > not in our perception

> > and thus, time also does not exist.

> > A meditating mind is thus, free from fluctuation of mind,

> > and thus is free from bondage of time.

> >

> > Historical time is perception by others' information

> > These collection of history is the word

> > Words extend our perception beyond life, and

> > time becomes infinity

> >

> > Words of the Bhagwat gita expand our mind and dissolve perception

> > and non perception

> > and reality of time between zero to infinite is thus

comprensible.

> >

> > Knowledge is thus proved as non sensory. Time is object of mind,

so

> > is the word.

> > regards

> > K G

> > (Krishna Gopal)

> >

> > -------------------------------

> > Is there a word that is more appropriate, as there is no word

such

> > as " God " in the Gita ?

> >

> > Classyoga

> >

> > -------------------------------

> > , " sadhak_insight "

> > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Hari Om

> > >

> > > SORRY SADHAKS ! RESENDING WITH CORRECTIONS... DUE TO ERROR IN

> > > PREVIOUS POSTING. Please ignore previous message

> > >

> > > Re Saadhak Mike's Query

> > >

> > > In this answer I will give substance of 2:12 only to begin

with.

> > >

> > > In this verse, the unity or similarness of " God " and " jeeva "

> (You,

> > > me, they, he ... self ...soul existing in each one of us) is

> > > described. God says that " You, me and these kings " they are

> > separate

> > > only when seen with reference to the bodies, but if you

consider

> > > " existence " they are one, only. The bodies were not there in

> past,

> > > and shall not remain in future. But the existence of " svaroop "

> > > (Self) was there in the past, shall also remain in future.

> Needless

> > > to say it is very well there in the present. When these bodies

> were

> > > not there then also, the existence (of you, me and these kings-

> God

> > > and all of us) was there, when these bodies will not be there

> then

> > > also existence will be there. There is nothing in this universe

> > > except " existence " . Therefore one should not grieve in

relation

> to

> > > bodies.

> > >

> > > " You, me and these kings " - the meaning to say these words is

> that

> > > the " existence " of God ( " satta " ) and " existence " of " jeeva " is

> one

> > > and same only - in both there is same " chinmay " (divine,

> permanent)

> > > existence is there. That " existence " alone is our true essence.

> > > Therefore one should not grieve in relation to body.

> > >

> > > An incident of " past " and of " future " appears far to us. The

same

> > > distance, the same farness is prevalent of an incidence

> > of " present "

> > > also. Just as we have no relationship or connection at present

> > > with " past " or with " future " , similarly we have no

relationship

> or

> > > connection with " present " also. When there is no relationship,

> then

> > > where is the difference among " past, present and future " ? Then,

> > > where is " time " as far as our existence is concerned? Past,

> present

> > > and future denote " time " only, and our existence in other

> > words " we "

> > > are beyond the same, beyond " time " ! You can divide " time " but

our

> > > form is " indivisible " . " When you consider the " body " to be

> > > your form, and do not consider eternal existence to be your

real

> > > essence, then only can you see or perceive the difference among

> > > past, present and future! "

> > >

> > > Millions of " yugas " (eons or ages) may change but you as

> existence

> > > will not change. You remain the same, because you are part of

> God.

> > > On the other hand the " body " keeps changing, never remains

static

> > > even for a fraction of a second.

> > >

> > > How are we beyond time? How to prove that? A simple logic!

> > We " know "

> > > past, present and future. These three divisions of " TIME " are

> > > subject matter of our knowledge! Hence we are beyond " past,

> present

> > > and future " ! It is law - you are separate from that thing

which

> > > comes in your sphere of knowledge!

> > >

> > > Before we go to sleep, our experience suggests that " we are

there

> > at

> > > present " . After getting up from sleep our experience is " we are

> > > there at present " . Then in the state of deep sleep also - " we

are

> > > there at present " ! In deep sleep there was absence of " tools of

> > > knowing " - there was no absence of ourselves!

> > >

> > > In deep sleep hence the existence is very well there. Where

> > > is " TIME " at that point? Do you feel " time " in deep sleep? At

the

> > > same time you are very well existing in deep sleep also. The

> > > perception of " time " at that point is absent. But you never

> > > perceive your absence.

> > >

> > > Therefore I replied that you were right, Mike in your

observing-

> > > " ...... Beyond that was the ever present source " . In a movie

> > > running in a cinema hall, there is past and future scenes. But

> > where

> > > is past and future for the projection screen behind the

projected

> > > scenery? It is Ever present !

> > >

> > > You are right therefore in observing that - " all we perceive as

> > > existence......existed in Time but beyond that was the ever

> present

> > > source " .

> > >

> > > Should you need more clarification please do write.

> > >

> > > Jai Shree Krishna

> > >

> > > Vyas N B

> > >

> > > ------------------------------

--

> --

> > -

> > > Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

> > >

> > > This verse 2:12(none of us were never non-existent....) is very

> > > essence of Gita along with 2:16 (That which IS, never ceases

to

> be

> > > and that which is NOT, never comes into Being and the seers

know

> > > this Truth).

> > >

> > > The Lord has pointed to our true identity which has to be other

> > than

> > > body-mind-intellect-ego and things we know. Everything known

> > through

> > > mind is perishable so we cannot be those. We have to be The One

> > > knower though unknowable by our own instrument! What a Divine

> > > Mystery! But the good news is we can realize it.

> > >

> > > The reality of the world including all of us sentients and

> > > insentients lies in its ever Beingness in whatever names and

> forms

> > > they may appear, in whatver times and places they appear.

Names-

> > > forms are individual existences of ONE Absolute Existence just

as

> > > waves are constantly arising and broken down again and again

but

> > > water(Ocean) cannot be non-existent. Reality of each wave is

100%

> > > Ocean(one touches Ocean when one touches waves). Thus Ocean has

> > > Being while waves have existences relative to Ocean.

> > >

> > > Similarly Lord says we all as that Absolute Being like an

Ocean,

> > > were always here(or everywhere, and nowhere, in otherword not

> > > located in space). However we continue to appear and disappear

as

> > > separate body-minds separated only by a fabric of space and

time

> > > (maya)! It is easy to see waves-ocean analogy here, but the

Being

> > > that " we are " cannot be seen or captured by mind, our only

> > > instrument of cognition, seems to be our difficulty.

> > >

> > > Nevertheless That Being is our experience right now as

> > > Consciousness. Aren't we conscious of our being? We cannot

show /

> > > produce an evidence of our being as some thing perceived by

mind

> > > like things of the world, but we intuitively know we ARE and

> hence

> > > it is Self-Evident Self. We just know we ARE and it is very

> unique

> > > Experience unlike all other experiences and also our the most

> > > CERTAIN Experience by which we can validate all other fleeting

> > > experiences! This Experience is the Subject Knowing Itself by

> > Itself

> > > for Itself (Apperception), which is SUBJECTIVITY IN ITSELF! It

is

> > > not Subject relative to objects, it is the total absence of all

> > > objectivity!

> > >

> > > Let us realize that through the study of Gita by all means

> > > indicated at our disposals!

> > >

> > > Namaskars.

> > >

> > > Pratap Bhatt

> > > ------------------------------

--

> -

> > > Hi Mike

> > > What is termed THE WORD is the first vibration that arises in

> > > Stillness (the Source). All that appears as manifest reality

is a

> > > variation on this one vibration vibrating at higher or lower

> > levels.

> > > All creation is therefore only the Word manifest. Clearly then

> all

> > > apparent separate beings are no other than this One Word

> appearing

> > > as the apparent separate many. Everything that exists is the

> Source

> > > manifesting, all is Stillness only.

> > >

> > > You and I and others are no other than the One manifesting as

the

> > > apparent many.

> > >

> > > With Love Avasa

> > > Adrian Meyers

> > >

> > > ------------------------------

--

> -

> > > Dear Sadak,

> > >

> > > Bagavan has said in Maha Pralaya everything gets destroyed and

> the

> > > athman " Self " in all beings abide in ME. Once again the

creation

> > > process starts and everything manifests from Me. This concept

Sri

> > > Vishnu explains and shows how it works to Markandeya Rishi. The

> > > Upanashids and Vedas say that this is going on from times

> > > immemorable. So all of us one day (judgement day) on Maha

Pralaya

> > > disappear and take refuge in Sri Vishnu. From Nabi of Sri

Vishnu

> > > comes Brahma, Vedas, creation etc. Then all of us appear. Again

> > Maha

> > > Pralata and we disappear. So there is never a time we never

> > existed.

> > > Only our equipment body appears and disappears. The earth thus

> went

> > > comes into existence time framed for 4 yugas. Longest is Sat

Yug

> > and

> > > shortest is Kaliyug. One can get the exact number of years of

> each

> > > yug from PANCHANGAM (astrological book). Why this circle?

answer

> is

> > > lengthy.

> > >

> > > B.Sathyanarayan

> > >

> > >

> > > , " sadhak_insight "

> > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > -Shree Hari-

> > > >

> > > > I have a question:

> > > >

> > > > Extending from Bhagavad Gita 2.12----Never was there a time

> when

> > I

> > > > did not exist, nor you, nor all these kings; nor in the

future

> > > shall

> > > > any of us cease to be.

> > > >

> > > > Reading the above reminded me of a conversation I had with a

> > young

> > > > priest, I was explaining my view of 'The Word', and how I

> sensed

> > > that

> > > > all we perceive as existence including The Creator i.e. The

> Word

> > > > existed in Time but beyond that was the ever present source.

He

> > > > exclaimed ha! You mean The Word is God in time.

> > > >

> > > > It seems to me this a somewhat universal concept. Perhaps I

am

> > out

> > > of

> > > > the starting blocks a little early, but maybe some good

person

> > can

> > > > give me the Bhagavad Gita wisdom on this, (I am sure its

> there).

> > > >

> > > > With respects and Divine Love.

> > > >

> > > > Mike

> > > > (Mike Keenor)

> > > >

> > > > GUIDELINES FOR POSTING A RESPONSE:

> > > >

> > > > 1. The group is focused on the Holy Gitaji, therefore, only

> > > > responses which further clarify the understanding of Gitaji,

> > will

> > > be

> > > > posted.

> > > >

> > > > 2. Making reference of Gitaji shloka is highly encouraged -

at

> > > least

> > > > once in the response. Wherever possible, please quote

Gitaji

> or

> > > > other scriptures to substantiate your response.

> > > >

> > > > 3. Please be as concise and to the point as possible,

> respecting

> > > > sadhaka's time. Under no circustance the answer should exceed

> > say

> > > > one page at the most (500 words or so).

> > > >

> > > > 4. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to

> the

> > > > extent that they further help in understanding the Gita

shlokas

> > > >

> > > > 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only.

> > > >

> > > > 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other

> > > > organizations.

> > > >

> > > > 7. Complete reproduction of texts from any book is strongly

> > > > discouraged, however references may be made of the book or

> > author

> > > > (but not links to other sites).

> > > >

> > > > 8. Kindly do not include your personal information such as

> phone

> > > > number, address etc.

> > > >

> > > > 9. Please do not address the response to a particular

> individual

> > > > since the message is going to the entire group.

> > > >

> > > > 10. Due to the large readership, only those responses will be

> > > posted

> > > > which are in line with the general philosophy of taking

Shrimad

> > > > Bhagavad Gita as the reference.

> > > >

> > > > 11. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if

> > > content

> > > > is unclear for distribution or not directly related to the

> > > question

> > > > being asked.

> > > >

> > > > 12. Please respond taking into consideration the novices,

> youth,

> > > > westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use of

> only

> > > > Sanskrit words, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit

> > > > bracketed wherever possible.

> > > >

> > > > MODERATOR

> > > > Ram Ram

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

-Shree Hari-

 

Indeed, what a joy it is to participate in such learned discourse.

And thank you so much.

 

Iam sure the Gitaji, will stimulate a need in me to ask many more

questions as I travel through its verses.

The question I asked is based on much thought on my part.

 

There has been much insight.

Thus putting things together from all the knowledgeable discourse,

I reason:

GOD the source, The Word (Logos)the fundamental vibration(s), all the

elements have a unique frequency, and God expressed in their

existence.

I feel a joy with all this.

 

With respects and Divine love.

 

Mike Keenor

 

 

--

, " sadhak_insight "

<sadhak_insight wrote:

>

> Hari Om

>

> Re Saadhak Mike's query

>

> While I addressed Mike's Query as to whether beyond WORD and TIME

> there is ever present source. But then there was observation of

> young priest also to be addressed - " You mean the Word is God in

> Time " .

>

> Whether the God is there in World or the World is there in God ?

> Whether the Word is God in Time or in God the Word and Time are

> there. A similar query arises in Gita also.

>

> In Gita 9:4 and 5 - The God says -

>

> " All this universe is pervaded by Me in My unmanifest form. All

being

> abide in Me, but I do not abide in them. Nor does the whole

creation

> vest in Me; look at my divine Yoga(Power). Being the creator and

> sustainer of beings , I , do not in reality , dwell in them " !

>

> In Gita 7:12 - The Lord says -

>

> " Whatever entities are born of sattva (mode of goodness), of rajas

> (mode of activity or passion) and tamas ( mode of inertia or

> ignorance), know them all, as evolved from Me; yet still neither I

> am in them, nor are they in Me.

>

> Now the contradictory statements are explained by means of an

> illustration. The Lord, abides in the world and the world abides in

> the Lord; the Lord does not abide in the world, and the world does

> not abide in the Lord. Waves, are in water and water is in waves,

> but waves have no existence besides water. Thus, the Lord abides in

> the world and the world abides in the Lord! B U T, if we do not

> accept the independent existence of waves, because they have no

> existence, besides water, there is neither water in waves, nor

waves

> in water, there remains only water which appears as waves.

> Similarly , neither God abides in the world, nor does the world

> abide in the God; the world has no existence of its own, besides

the

> Lord, VASUDEVAH SARVAM - (Gita 7 : 19 - All this is God).

>

> That means all are evolved from Him. He is all in all; the cause

and

> the effect, which seems distinct. But, the effect has no separate

and

> independent existence, from the cause. As in ornaments made of

gold,

> there is nothing else, besides gold, similarly the universe evolved

> from God is nothing else, besides the God!

>

> Actually, there is nothing else, besides Him. When there is only

one

> element then who will be there in whom and who shall not be there

in

> whom?

>

> You were right, Mike in your statement.

> The priest's statement has been addressed as above. Awaiting any

> further doubts or clarification on this subject.

>

> It is a divine experience to be with such a learned group - Gita

Talk Group.. What we are doing in fact is " Jnana Yajna " within the

> meaning of Gitaji. Each participant, each reader is giving " ahuti "

> in this sacrifice(Yajna). It is said that when two deepaks (oil

> lamps) get together, each destroys the shadow beneath the another.

> In our scriptures the importance of Saadhaks getting together and

> deliberating upon God, His lila, His stories, His Gita, His

devotees

> is brought out in glorious terms. It is Bhakti (devotion)

> undoubtedly.. It is Jnana (knowledge) also. And of course it

> is " divya Karma " ( divine deed).. A Father undoubtedly becomes happy

> when his children pay attention to him.

>

> Let us keep deliberating, keep questioning, keep replying and keep

> reading.

>

> My respectful pranaam to all participants and readers.

>

> Jai Shree Krishna

> Vyas N B

>

>

> Dear sadaks,

>

> A U M is Om generally known to all. Bagavan said in Geetha, " I am

in

> Aksharam - Akaram " . That is sound starting with A. The sound

> AUM /OM. Pronouncing Om in certain frequency brings ones mind

> focused on mind seeking GOD and simulteniously cuts off desires.

> Once Kama (desire) goes, Krodha (Anger) goes. Bagavan referred

> Kamayesu Krodhayesu etc six bad gunas.

>

> Vishnu is independant of anything says Upanashids. Time has means

> start and end otherwise the concept of time is not there.

>

> God does not depend on time. Time is temporary for each and every

> one in creation. Time span for man, animal, plant is fixed. There

is

> no time span for GOD as it is said in Vedas, GOD exists, existed,

> will be existing (past present and future)

>

> Means GOD is independant of TIME. Time can change vary etc. But God

> does not change vary. Bagavan in Geetha says to Arjuna certain

> words, " Kalpakalam and Anaadhikalam " . Means in time frame creation

> comes and goes. But GOD remains not in time frame.

>

> B. Sathyanarayan

> -

-

> namaskar

> i would just like to thank you all for you continual writings

> i study what you post every day

> moksha

> anne thakur

> -

-

> Hare Krsna,

> Dandavats.....all glories to Sri guru and Gaurganga

>

> I have been reading your insights for some time.

> I appreciate the time to these questions. Many thanks for the

direct, helpful, and beautiufl realizations of your master.

>

> Mahalaksmi Dasi

> -

-

>

> , " sadhak_insight "

> <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> >

> > Loving Divine,

> > Pranam.

> >

> > What a beautiful revelation - '...The Word existed in Time but

> > beyond that was the ever present source. He exclaimed ha! You

mean

> > The Word is God in time.' Yes, it is indeed! Beautiful answers

> > have been given (regarding OMmmmmm... sound - it is all pervading

> in the universe, the sound of sounds or from where the sound

uttered

> by

> > us is created) so i will not repeat any of it. Just wanted to

> point

> > out to another verse (sloka) reflecting similar thoughts - in the

> > Bhagavad Gita - Gita 10:20, Lord says, I am Aatma (Soul/

> > Consciousness) situated in all beings. In them I am the

beginning,

> > middle and end! Let's look within, the Source

> (Soul/Consciousness)

> > is present in all times - in the beginning, as a creator -

Brahmaa

> > (past), in the middle as a sustainer - Vishnu (present) & at the

> end

> > as a dissolution - Shiva (future). No word, no creation!

Whatever

> > we utter, related thoughts have to be there. Whatever we think,

we

> > construct sentences. Before we construct a sentence, there are

> > words (if it doesn't exist, we create one!). Before the

existence

> > of a word, an alphabet has to exist. Before alphabet is

> pronounced,

> > pure sound has to exist and that pure sound is Ommmmm... When

one

> > concentrates on listening to this sound (not uttering but what is

> > present in this universe), one goes beyond sound, the source of

> > sound, which is present in all times - as we perceive the time to

> > be, but if we end our perception, we realize that this source is

> > present even beyond time!

> >

> > Thanks,

> > humble regards,

> > always at Thy Lotus Feet

> >

> > Manjula Patel

> >

> > -------------------------------

> > Vyasji brought out the essence of the cause of the drama of life

> > that is played out with eight elements of nature. Adi Sankara in

> > Dakshina Murthy Strotram puts it slightly different eight " bhuh

> > ambha anala anila ambar maharnatha himansu puman' Meaning

earth,

> > water, fire, air, space, Sun, Moon and Ego as the eight fold.

> These

> > give rise to all the chara and achara (moving and non-moving)

> jagat

> > (world).

> >

> > It is so facinating how our philosophy is so deep in rational

> > thinking, I am somewhat astonished when some one asks is this

> > scientific? The most scientific inquiry ever conducted into the

> > spiritual and phenomenal world is by the Ancient Seers of India

> > whose results are codified and called " Sanatana Dharma. "

> Taittiriya

> > Upanishad talks about the same. Gita the essence of all

> Upanishads

> > as mentioned below also talks about the same.

> >

> > B. Vempaty

> > --------------------------------

> >

> > , " sadhak_insight "

> > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Hari Om

> > >

> > > Great Adrian! And that vibration ..... That sound ....that

> > > WORD ...... as per Hindu Sanatan Dharma was " A U M " ..... " O

> M. " !

> > >

> > > You are right when you say -

> > > " You and I and others are no other than the One manifesting as

> the

> > > apparent many " .

> > >

> > > From the stillness came the sound......which is effect of

ether (

> > > sky ) Subtler than sky is " mind " (mann). Subtler than mind

> > > is " intellect " . Subtler than that is " I " (ego,Individuality).

In

> > the

> > > regime of " nature " the ego is the subtlest!

> > >

> > > That " I " in fact is " existence " - when individuality is

removed.

> > > (Aham Brahmasmi - I am Brahma ... I am God ) Remove " I " and

what

> > > remains is God ! " Only existence " . Thus It becomes common and

> same

> > > for all - one manifesting as many.

> > >

> > > Sky is the cause of " air " . Air thus is grosser than sky. Air is

> the

> > > cause of " fire " . Fire is the cause of " water " . Water is the

cause

> > > of " earth " . Thus you have 8 elements of Nature. Ego, Intellect,

> > > Mind, Sky, Air, Fire, Water and earth ( read Gita 7: 4 and 5)

> > >

> > > Your existence - You are beyond them. So is God. Both are one

> > only -

> > > one manifesting as many.

> > >

> > > Jai Shree Krishna

> > >

> > > Vyas N B

> > > ------------------------------

--

> > > The Word is God in time.

> > > It is correct that Word is God in Time. It will be easy to

> > > understand if we rephrase it as Word and Time are in God.

> > > In Gita, Lord Krishna says " This whole universe is pervaded by

> Me,

> > > in My unmanifest aspect. All the beings exist in Me but I do

not

> > > dwell in them " Ch 9 vs. 4. As soon as God manifests, time is

> > > created. Time is a by-product of creation. The first

> manifestation

> > > of God is the Word, " OM " not in literal meaning but the pure

> sound.

> > > The duality cannot exist without time, hence the creation of

> time.

> > > When pralaya takes place the duality ends and every thing

merges

> in

> > > to one. This is the reason the four Yugas start (time zero)

from

> > > that happening. Lord Krishna says, " All beings, O'Kaunteya go

> in

> > to

> > > My nature at the end of each Kalpa (Measure of Time) and again

at

> > > the beginning of next Kalpa (Measure of Time) I send them forth

> > > again. Ch 9 vs. 7

> > >

> > > In Hindu thought, there are 6 philosophies regarding the

> > > relationship between the creator and the creation and each one

> > > differs from the other with some modification. Gita is the only

> > > scripture, which addresses all of them and provides a

> consolidated

> > > version of all six..

> > >

> > > Manmohan Sehgal

> > > ------------------------------

--

> -

> > >

> > > Regarding Mike's query

> > > It may also be explained here that there are two types of

> worlds :

> > > satya and mithya. What remains unchanged and everchanged is the

> > > satya and whatever changes or reels into the cycle of life and

> > birth

> > > is mithya. Brahmeva satyam jaganmitha also points out these two

> > > things. This visible world and physical bodies always change,

so

> > > they belong to the mithya world. The concept of time also

belong

> to

> > > this mithya world. The cocept of past present and future also

> > belong

> > > to this mithya world. This prakriti undergoes the change of

> > > visibility and unvisibility. Its visibility is called life and

> > > unvisibility is called death. So the entire Prakriti belong to

> the

> > > mithya world. But God and souls they remain unchanged all the

> > times.

> > > They are neither born (become visible) nor die (become

> unvisible).

> > > So they belong to the Satya world. Sri Krishna wants to say

that

> as

> > > the member of the satya world we are always there irrespective

of

> > > the time. But as the member of mithya world we are present

> > sometimes

> > > and become absent at another time. But the cycle of life and

> death

> > > is also eternal. As such world cannot be God in time but

visible

> > > world is the mithya and as such cannot exist all the times. On

> the

> > > other hand, God and souls exist all the time.

> > >

> > > Ravi Arya

> > > ------------------------------

-

> > > Time is a rate of changes in perception.

> > > And changes, occur in perception

> > > Once changes or fluctuation in perception stop, then time is

> zero.

> > > Such as before birth, in sleep and upon death, changes occure

but

> > > not in our perception

> > > and thus, time also does not exist.

> > > A meditating mind is thus, free from fluctuation of mind,

> > > and thus is free from bondage of time.

> > >

> > > Historical time is perception by others' information

> > > These collection of history is the word

> > > Words extend our perception beyond life, and

> > > time becomes infinity

> > >

> > > Words of the Bhagwat gita expand our mind and dissolve

perception

> > > and non perception

> > > and reality of time between zero to infinite is thus

> comprensible.

> > >

> > > Knowledge is thus proved as non sensory. Time is object of

mind,

> so

> > > is the word.

> > > regards

> > > K G

> > > (Krishna Gopal)

> > >

> > > ------------------------------

-

> > > Is there a word that is more appropriate, as there is no word

> such

> > > as " God " in the Gita ?

> > >

> > > Classyoga

> > >

> > > ------------------------------

-

> > > , " sadhak_insight "

> > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Hari Om

> > > >

> > > > SORRY SADHAKS ! RESENDING WITH CORRECTIONS... DUE TO ERROR

IN

> > > > PREVIOUS POSTING. Please ignore previous message

> > > >

> > > > Re Saadhak Mike's Query

> > > >

> > > > In this answer I will give substance of 2:12 only to begin

> with.

> > > >

> > > > In this verse, the unity or similarness of " God " and " jeeva "

> > (You,

> > > > me, they, he ... self ...soul existing in each one of us) is

> > > > described. God says that " You, me and these kings " they are

> > > separate

> > > > only when seen with reference to the bodies, but if you

> consider

> > > > " existence " they are one, only. The bodies were not there in

> > past,

> > > > and shall not remain in future. But the existence of "

svaroop "

> > > > (Self) was there in the past, shall also remain in future.

> > Needless

> > > > to say it is very well there in the present. When these

bodies

> > were

> > > > not there then also, the existence (of you, me and these

kings-

> > God

> > > > and all of us) was there, when these bodies will not be there

> > then

> > > > also existence will be there. There is nothing in this

universe

> > > > except " existence " . Therefore one should not grieve in

> relation

> > to

> > > > bodies.

> > > >

> > > > " You, me and these kings " - the meaning to say these words is

> > that

> > > > the " existence " of God ( " satta " ) and " existence " of " jeeva "

is

> > one

> > > > and same only - in both there is same " chinmay " (divine,

> > permanent)

> > > > existence is there. That " existence " alone is our true

essence.

> > > > Therefore one should not grieve in relation to body.

> > > >

> > > > An incident of " past " and of " future " appears far to us. The

> same

> > > > distance, the same farness is prevalent of an incidence

> > > of " present "

> > > > also. Just as we have no relationship or connection at

present

> > > > with " past " or with " future " , similarly we have no

> relationship

> > or

> > > > connection with " present " also. When there is no

relationship,

> > then

> > > > where is the difference among " past, present and future " ?

Then,

> > > > where is " time " as far as our existence is concerned? Past,

> > present

> > > > and future denote " time " only, and our existence in other

> > > words " we "

> > > > are beyond the same, beyond " time " ! You can divide " time " but

> our

> > > > form is " indivisible " . " When you consider the " body " to be

> > > > your form, and do not consider eternal existence to be your

> real

> > > > essence, then only can you see or perceive the difference

among

> > > > past, present and future! "

> > > >

> > > > Millions of " yugas " (eons or ages) may change but you as

> > existence

> > > > will not change. You remain the same, because you are part of

> > God.

> > > > On the other hand the " body " keeps changing, never remains

> static

> > > > even for a fraction of a second.

> > > >

> > > > How are we beyond time? How to prove that? A simple logic!

> > > We " know "

> > > > past, present and future. These three divisions of " TIME " are

> > > > subject matter of our knowledge! Hence we are beyond " past,

> > present

> > > > and future " ! It is law - you are separate from that thing

> which

> > > > comes in your sphere of knowledge!

> > > >

> > > > Before we go to sleep, our experience suggests that " we are

> there

> > > at

> > > > present " . After getting up from sleep our experience is " we

are

> > > > there at present " . Then in the state of deep sleep also - " we

> are

> > > > there at present " ! In deep sleep there was absence of " tools

of

> > > > knowing " - there was no absence of ourselves!

> > > >

> > > > In deep sleep hence the existence is very well there. Where

> > > > is " TIME " at that point? Do you feel " time " in deep sleep? At

> the

> > > > same time you are very well existing in deep sleep also. The

> > > > perception of " time " at that point is absent. But you never

> > > > perceive your absence.

> > > >

> > > > Therefore I replied that you were right, Mike in your

> observing-

> > > > " ...... Beyond that was the ever present source " . In a movie

> > > > running in a cinema hall, there is past and future scenes.

But

> > > where

> > > > is past and future for the projection screen behind the

> projected

> > > > scenery? It is Ever present !

> > > >

> > > > You are right therefore in observing that - " all we perceive

as

> > > > existence......existed in Time but beyond that was the ever

> > present

> > > > source " .

> > > >

> > > > Should you need more clarification please do write.

> > > >

> > > > Jai Shree Krishna

> > > >

> > > > Vyas N B

> > > >

> > > > ----------------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > -

> > > > Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

> > > >

> > > > This verse 2:12(none of us were never non-existent....) is

very

> > > > essence of Gita along with 2:16 (That which IS, never ceases

> to

> > be

> > > > and that which is NOT, never comes into Being and the seers

> know

> > > > this Truth).

> > > >

> > > > The Lord has pointed to our true identity which has to be

other

> > > than

> > > > body-mind-intellect-ego and things we know. Everything known

> > > through

> > > > mind is perishable so we cannot be those. We have to be The

One

> > > > knower though unknowable by our own instrument! What a Divine

> > > > Mystery! But the good news is we can realize it.

> > > >

> > > > The reality of the world including all of us sentients and

> > > > insentients lies in its ever Beingness in whatever names and

> > forms

> > > > they may appear, in whatver times and places they appear.

> Names-

> > > > forms are individual existences of ONE Absolute Existence

just

> as

> > > > waves are constantly arising and broken down again and again

> but

> > > > water(Ocean) cannot be non-existent. Reality of each wave is

> 100%

> > > > Ocean(one touches Ocean when one touches waves). Thus Ocean

has

> > > > Being while waves have existences relative to Ocean.

> > > >

> > > > Similarly Lord says we all as that Absolute Being like an

> Ocean,

> > > > were always here(or everywhere, and nowhere, in otherword not

> > > > located in space). However we continue to appear and

disappear

> as

> > > > separate body-minds separated only by a fabric of space and

> time

> > > > (maya)! It is easy to see waves-ocean analogy here, but the

> Being

> > > > that " we are " cannot be seen or captured by mind, our only

> > > > instrument of cognition, seems to be our difficulty.

> > > >

> > > > Nevertheless That Being is our experience right now as

> > > > Consciousness. Aren't we conscious of our being? We cannot

> show /

> > > > produce an evidence of our being as some thing perceived by

> mind

> > > > like things of the world, but we intuitively know we ARE and

> > hence

> > > > it is Self-Evident Self. We just know we ARE and it is very

> > unique

> > > > Experience unlike all other experiences and also our the most

> > > > CERTAIN Experience by which we can validate all other

fleeting

> > > > experiences! This Experience is the Subject Knowing Itself by

> > > Itself

> > > > for Itself (Apperception), which is SUBJECTIVITY IN ITSELF!

It

> is

> > > > not Subject relative to objects, it is the total absence of

all

> > > > objectivity!

> > > >

> > > > Let us realize that through the study of Gita by all means

> > > > indicated at our disposals!

> > > >

> > > > Namaskars.

> > > >

> > > > Pratap Bhatt

> > > > ----------------------------

--

> --

> > -

> > > > Hi Mike

> > > > What is termed THE WORD is the first vibration that arises in

> > > > Stillness (the Source). All that appears as manifest reality

> is a

> > > > variation on this one vibration vibrating at higher or lower

> > > levels.

> > > > All creation is therefore only the Word manifest. Clearly

then

> > all

> > > > apparent separate beings are no other than this One Word

> > appearing

> > > > as the apparent separate many. Everything that exists is the

> > Source

> > > > manifesting, all is Stillness only.

> > > >

> > > > You and I and others are no other than the One manifesting as

> the

> > > > apparent many.

> > > >

> > > > With Love Avasa

> > > > Adrian Meyers

> > > >

> > > > ----------------------------

--

> --

> > -

> > > > Dear Sadak,

> > > >

> > > > Bagavan has said in Maha Pralaya everything gets destroyed

and

> > the

> > > > athman " Self " in all beings abide in ME. Once again the

> creation

> > > > process starts and everything manifests from Me. This concept

> Sri

> > > > Vishnu explains and shows how it works to Markandeya Rishi.

The

> > > > Upanashids and Vedas say that this is going on from times

> > > > immemorable. So all of us one day (judgement day) on Maha

> Pralaya

> > > > disappear and take refuge in Sri Vishnu. From Nabi of Sri

> Vishnu

> > > > comes Brahma, Vedas, creation etc. Then all of us appear.

Again

> > > Maha

> > > > Pralata and we disappear. So there is never a time we never

> > > existed.

> > > > Only our equipment body appears and disappears. The earth

thus

> > went

> > > > comes into existence time framed for 4 yugas. Longest is Sat

> Yug

> > > and

> > > > shortest is Kaliyug. One can get the exact number of years of

> > each

> > > > yug from PANCHANGAM (astrological book). Why this circle?

> answer

> > is

> > > > lengthy.

> > > >

> > > > B.Sathyanarayan

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > , " sadhak_insight "

> > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > -Shree Hari-

> > > > >

> > > > > I have a question:

> > > > >

> > > > > Extending from Bhagavad Gita 2.12----Never was there a time

> > when

> > > I

> > > > > did not exist, nor you, nor all these kings; nor in the

> future

> > > > shall

> > > > > any of us cease to be.

> > > > >

> > > > > Reading the above reminded me of a conversation I had with

a

> > > young

> > > > > priest, I was explaining my view of 'The Word', and how I

> > sensed

> > > > that

> > > > > all we perceive as existence including The Creator i.e. The

> > Word

> > > > > existed in Time but beyond that was the ever present

source.

> He

> > > > > exclaimed ha! You mean The Word is God in time.

> > > > >

> > > > > It seems to me this a somewhat universal concept. Perhaps I

> am

> > > out

> > > > of

> > > > > the starting blocks a little early, but maybe some good

> person

> > > can

> > > > > give me the Bhagavad Gita wisdom on this, (I am sure its

> > there).

> > > > >

> > > > > With respects and Divine Love.

> > > > >

> > > > > Mike

> > > > > (Mike Keenor)

> > > > >

> > > > > GUIDELINES FOR POSTING A RESPONSE:

> > > > >

> > > > > 1. The group is focused on the Holy Gitaji, therefore, only

> > > > > responses which further clarify the understanding of

Gitaji,

> > > will

> > > > be

> > > > > posted.

> > > > >

> > > > > 2. Making reference of Gitaji shloka is highly encouraged -

> at

> > > > least

> > > > > once in the response. Wherever possible, please quote

> Gitaji

> > or

> > > > > other scriptures to substantiate your response.

> > > > >

> > > > > 3. Please be as concise and to the point as possible,

> > respecting

> > > > > sadhaka's time. Under no circustance the answer should

exceed

> > > say

> > > > > one page at the most (500 words or so).

> > > > >

> > > > > 4. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc.

to

> > the

> > > > > extent that they further help in understanding the Gita

> shlokas

> > > > >

> > > > > 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only.

> > > > >

> > > > > 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other

> > > > > organizations.

> > > > >

> > > > > 7. Complete reproduction of texts from any book is strongly

> > > > > discouraged, however references may be made of the book or

> > > author

> > > > > (but not links to other sites).

> > > > >

> > > > > 8. Kindly do not include your personal information such as

> > phone

> > > > > number, address etc.

> > > > >

> > > > > 9. Please do not address the response to a particular

> > individual

> > > > > since the message is going to the entire group.

> > > > >

> > > > > 10. Due to the large readership, only those responses will

be

> > > > posted

> > > > > which are in line with the general philosophy of taking

> Shrimad

> > > > > Bhagavad Gita as the reference.

> > > > >

> > > > > 11. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if

> > > > content

> > > > > is unclear for distribution or not directly related to the

> > > > question

> > > > > being asked.

> > > > >

> > > > > 12. Please respond taking into consideration the novices,

> > youth,

> > > > > westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use of

> > only

> > > > > Sanskrit words, rather provide the English word with

Sanskrit

> > > > > bracketed wherever possible.

> > > > >

> > > > > MODERATOR

> > > > > Ram Ram

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>