Guest guest Posted July 1, 2008 Report Share Posted July 1, 2008 I always hear people quoting the Gita saying - Take success and failure alike; Don't get agitated if one is Hindu or Muslim - We are all same. But the same persons when it comes to their own personal lives, they want their son should be well educated, their own company to not undergo losses and their own property should fetch more money etc. Why people have these double standards, one for themselves and one for the cause of hindu society? Is Krishna's message right ? and if so, should we apply Krishna's idea that success and failure are same in all activities whether it be success of our own child or not? Please point Gita sources to help sadhaks get past these double standards, if they exist. (Moderator addition) Raghuram GUIDELINES FOR POSTING A RESPONSE: 1. The group is focused on the Holy Gitaji, therefore, only responses which further clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will be posted. 2. Making reference of Gitaji shloka is highly encouraged - at least once in the response. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to substantiate your response. 3. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting sadhaka's time. Under no circustance the answer should exceed say one page at the most (500 words or so). 4. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only. 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other organizations. 7. Complete reproduction of texts from any book is strongly discouraged, however references may be made of the book or author (but not links to other sites). 8. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone number, address etc. 9. Please do not address the response to a particular individual since the message is going to the entire group. 10. Due to the large readership, only those responses will be posted which are in line with the general philosophy of taking Shrimad Bhagavad Gita as the reference. 11. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if content is unclear for distribution or not directly related to the question being asked. 12. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use of only Sanskrit words, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit bracketed wherever possible. MODERATOR Ram Ram Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 2, 2008 Report Share Posted July 2, 2008 Dear Sadhakas, Namaste! The problem of double standards arise only if we have not understood the message of Gita correctly. If I consider myself Hindu as absolute truth or I consider myself as successful person or a failure really, then certainly I will have double standards. When I am " this " or " that " , chances are I will stand in conflict with others inevitably and hence double standards. What it means is that one needs to realize that one is neither Hindu, nor successful, nor a failure, nor this, nor that etc etc. From Absolute point, we are Atman-Consciousness which is not a thing or a person! With this attitude one lives life doing one's duties (karmas), guided by Righteousness-Dharma be it of Hindu or Muslim. It is assigned by God. One certainly should plan for being successful at whatever one does, and does the best of one's ability. Then one remains steadfast to accept whatever be the results as if it is from God. This is the attitude that Gita's teaching emphasizes mostly in Chapter 4th. Why would such a person have double standard at all? Again being Hindu or Muslim is just a role we need to play from a practical point of view. If we have understanding that Atma- Consciousness that " we are " has no gender, no caste, no race, no nationality, nor any attributes belonging to It. All such Attributes belong to body-mind individual depending on place and time of birth and subsequent upbringing. Belief in such individuality separates us and is of no real significance except for playing our role efficiently and tentatively. How can we have double standards with such deep understanding? I cannot consider myself superior or inferior to any other actors even if they get roles of heros and I get to play villain. The only thing that matters is the best acting! Play the role as if it matters, while knowing full well, it doesn't matter! Namaskars...Pratap (Pratap Bhatt) - Hari Om The Krishna's Message cannot be wrong. Our interpretation thereof , hence, needs to be falling in line. There are basically two things- One, your doing the efforts. Two, the results thereof. Says Lord Krishna in Gita " Karmanye vaadhikaraste, ma phaleshu kadachan " – Your right is to only perform your duty, but never to claim its fruits. (Gita 2:47). Hence there is nothing wrong in any one wishing or making efforts towards say his son getting higher education, or in his not incurring any losses or in his making efforts to see that his property fetches a good price. What is wrong with that, unless they are resorting to unfair means in their efforts? These very people can still talk about or even preach Equanimity – Take success and failure alike. There is no double standard till then. The question of double standards arise only when their son fails and they grieve and do not maintain Equanimity in their conduct and they still preach equanimity. Here in the examples given by you the results are not being put to test. No where in any religion your making lawful and genuine efforts to earn money, or ensure betterment of your near and dear ones etc is prohibited. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B It is not true for Gita that one should allow laisez faire (or let things be ). Had it been so, why would Arjun fight a war and killed own family members? Arjun was taught in Gita to do things that were right, and not worry of consequences. The problem is Gita is asking to rise up and listen to ones' intution, and do just things. You will be very surprised that in 36/10th chapter Sri Krishna says I am 'deception' in the game of dice (stock market), and 'talent' of the intellectuals, For business men/women, I am 'determination of the success', and 'purity' of knowledge, for the seekers of truth. He further says that one should do things as per his/her swabhav (independent nature), and never follow others mindlessly, else he/she will neither gain from own nature nor from the one who he/she followed. That means, criminals, thief and docoit and businessmen should work in state of independent nature and free (without compulsion of doing) and that will always be satisfactory, and never has worry of consequences. A docoit named Angulimaal was looting passengers that pass through an isolated road and cut one finger for marking purpose. He was like the traffic police who robbed truck drivers on Indian roads for money and give a token that when shown to other police, they can understand that the booty is collected already, and further harrassment is saved. Once Buddha passed over, and caught by that docoit, and after paying the money, Angulimaal was obliged to ampute one finger of Buddha. The dacoit was rich and yet doing this. This surprised Buddha and asked if the dacoit was doing the robbery for himself or under compulsion to do. Angulimaal had no answer. He went home to ask his wife and children if they are included in the sin or is it his own responsibility. None took the responsibility. Angulimaal then thought of Self and what he would have done, had he attained freedom (of obligation without sharing responsibility). The dacoit realized his DOUBLE STANDARDS and it was instantly corrected. He turned to a saint. It says 'do things for the main purpose of life, life without purpose is unimportant'. Soldiers sacrifice life for the purpose of protecting the nation is more important than life. Businessmen sacrifice life for profit as profit is purpose of life. It is individual question and everyone finds their own answers. Regards K G (Krishna Gopal) -------------------------------- Namasthe This is my humble opinion. Yes, Gita says " Take success and failure alike; Don't get agitated if one is Hindu or Muslim - We are all same. " .. that means..do whatever you wanted to do in this world which you understand is your duty and leave the fruits of all your actions to that God. This is the path of karma yoga relinquishing the fruits of our actions but again, we need to do our actions to complete our duties or responsibilities which has come to us either by choice or by circumstances. Yes, wanting to get the children educated and making them independent is a part of one's duty to take care of the family. Even wanting to fetch more money is not against Gita but once you try whatever you wanted to do, irrespective of whether your son studies or not, whether you can fetch more money or not..leave eveything to that God. Also, please look into the details of: whatever you wanted to do or get done is fine as long as you are in the path of dharma. This concept 'Dharma' is given different meanings by different people. But what I mean is: Dharma is relative, based on what you feel your duty is, just do what is righteous in that path of Dharma and that becomes your duty. Regards, Bharathi I thank you for your rules of responce. I hope it increases the ease at which Sadhaka administers. I for one would love to quote the Gita, yet I do not know the Gita. I understand its beauty, and ant to know more. I am very interested because of the teachings of American Transcendentalist Ralph Waldo Emerson. Although a century plus separates me from Emerson, I consider myself his student. In closing, I grew ups an Orthodox Christian. I was once a semester away from the ordained priesthood. When I arrived to that place I saw that something was missing. My journey brought me to this place. Your words, those of the Gita, are the most Christian of anything I read. I enjoy your messages. Please continue. Once again I am in love with Bhrama. It is the most wonderful idea of spirituality created. It explains everything Chris Politz -------------------------------- I don't understand how answer to this will help in our spiritual practice (Sadhana). A.H.Dalmia , " sadhak_insight " <sadhak_insight wrote: > > I always hear people quoting the Gita saying - Take success and > failure alike; Don't get agitated if one is Hindu or Muslim - We are > all same. > > But the same persons when it comes to their own personal lives, they > want their son should be well educated, their own company to not > undergo losses and their own property should fetch more money etc. > Why people have these double standards, one for themselves and one > for the cause of hindu society? > > Is Krishna's message right ? and if so, should we apply Krishna's > idea > that success and failure are same in all activities whether it be > success of our own child or not? > > Please point Gita sources to help sadhaks get past these double > standards, if they exist. (Moderator addition) > > Raghuram > > GUIDELINES FOR POSTING A RESPONSE: > > 1. The group is focused on the Holy Gitaji, therefore, only > responses which further clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will be > posted. > > 2. Making reference of Gitaji shloka is highly encouraged - at least > once in the response. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or > other scriptures to substantiate your response. > > 3. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting > sadhaka's time. Under no circustance the answer should exceed say > one page at the most (500 words or so). > > 4. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the > extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas > > 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only. > > 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other > organizations. > > 7. Complete reproduction of texts from any book is strongly > discouraged, however references may be made of the book or author > (but not links to other sites). > > 8. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone > number, address etc. > > 9. Please do not address the response to a particular individual > since the message is going to the entire group. > > 10. Due to the large readership, only those responses will be posted > which are in line with the general philosophy of taking Shrimad > Bhagavad Gita as the reference. > > 11. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if content > is unclear for distribution or not directly related to the question > being asked. > > 12. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth, > westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use of only > Sanskrit words, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit > bracketed wherever possible. > > MODERATOR > Ram Ram > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 3, 2008 Report Share Posted July 3, 2008 This is a wonderful conversation! I am not very knowledgable, but I would like to humbly submit a response. In Bhagavad Gita, Krishna explains: " The spirit soul, bewildered by the influence of false ego thinks himself the doer of activities that are in actuality carried out by the three modes of material nature. " (Chapter 3, Text27) He continues, " Bewildered by the modes of material nature, the ignorant fully engage themselves in material activities and become attached. " (3.29) And one more quotation: " There are principles to regulate attachment and aversion pertaining to the senses and their objects. One should not come under the control of such attachment and aversion, because they are stumbling blocks on the path of self-realization. " (3.34) If we want to make progress on the path towards God, it is important to fully understand these issues of attachment. What we often witness is intellectual understanding without full realization - someone can speak these ideals, but be unable to achieve them in his or her own life. Krishna tells us that material nature (which is actually part of God's energy and operates under God's direction) is not under our control. Through our attachment for the objects that give us pleasure, and aversion to those that give us pain, the material nature controls us. But, through proper practice, we can start to understand the situation. Then, when we act in the material world, although we may be pursuing education or operating a business, our mentality is that is it all God's energy and all under God's control. Then, we can work toward one thing or another, and be undisturbed by success or failure. So, what is the process by which we can surpass the shallow understanding of this philosophy and actually realize it and apply it to our lives? Mrs. Hannah Sandal --------------------------- Dear Sahak, Krishna asked Arjuna - " Stand up and fight, without thinking or attaching yourself with the result of the war " Gita, Chapter 2 He said-fight, fight with all your strength, means put all your efforts in what you do and leave the result onto HIM. To apply His principle in our life - put our best efforts into whatever we do, but leave the success or failure onto HIM. The result of our actions are not in our hands anyway. As you said- " THEY " have double standard- all so called good and fortunate things are for themselves, and preachings for rest of the world, it looks like that, it might be our illusion or even if it is true how does it affect MY SPIRITUAL JOURNEY? Spirituality is the journey of MY OWN SELF. It has nothing to do with what others think or do, its all about what I think, and do. If I put my best efforts into any action and leave the result to my Lord, then its fine, I am on the right path. If I KNOW that I am God's and only God is mine, then I am on right path. If I study Gita and follow its teaching, then I am on the right path. Gita Chapter 3-30 " Myi Srvani Karmani -----Vigatjavarah " " Surrendering all your works unto Me, with mind intent on Me, and without desire for gain and free from egoism and lethargy, fight. " When we live in complete surrender, remembering HIM, and working hard, being free from desire, lethargy and ego-- We are on right path. Krishna says- " All are dear to ME, all are part of ME " chapter 9:6 So if I am on right path Krishna will take care of all others too as all are dear to HIM. Just go deep inside, and be one with Krishna.....wandering into outer world does not help a spiritual aspirant. with lots of love, a sadhika (Sadhana Karigar) ---------------------------- , " sadhak_insight " <sadhak_insight wrote: > > I always hear people quoting the Gita saying - Take success and > failure alike; Don't get agitated if one is Hindu or Muslim - We are > all same. > > But the same persons when it comes to their own personal lives, they > want their son should be well educated, their own company to not > undergo losses and their own property should fetch more money etc. > Why people have these double standards, one for themselves and one > for the cause of hindu society? > > Is Krishna's message right ? and if so, should we apply Krishna's > idea > that success and failure are same in all activities whether it be > success of our own child or not? > > Please point Gita sources to help sadhaks get past these double > standards, if they exist. (Moderator addition) > > Raghuram > > GUIDELINES FOR POSTING A RESPONSE: > > 1. The group is focused on the Holy Gitaji, therefore, only > responses which further clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will be > posted. > > 2. Making reference of Gitaji shloka is highly encouraged - at least > once in the response. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or > other scriptures to substantiate your response. > > 3. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting > sadhaka's time. Under no circustance the answer should exceed say > one page at the most (500 words or so). > > 4. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the > extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas > > 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only. > > 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other > organizations. > > 7. Complete reproduction of texts from any book is strongly > discouraged, however references may be made of the book or author > (but not links to other sites). > > 8. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone > number, address etc. > > 9. Please do not address the response to a particular individual > since the message is going to the entire group. > > 10. Due to the large readership, only those responses will be posted > which are in line with the general philosophy of taking Shrimad > Bhagavad Gita as the reference. > > 11. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if content > is unclear for distribution or not directly related to the question > being asked. > > 12. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth, > westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use of only > Sanskrit words, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit > bracketed wherever possible. > > MODERATOR > Ram Ram > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 4, 2008 Report Share Posted July 4, 2008 I am of the view that the question of 'Double Standard' arises from the difference in 'Kathni and Karani'. This means that it is easy to preach, but difficult to practice. This in no way can reflect on Gitaji. It is only the individual who behaves like this. What has that has got to do with what Gitaji's message or central theme is ? Now coming to the question raised by Smt. Sandal, may I say that all the problem starts with accepting ourselves as the 'Body'. This invites the concept of 'I and Mine'. This further invites the concept of 'Attachment'. The cardinal principle is that mind has got a tendency to get attached to whatever he spends more time in thinking. Like we spend most time in thinking of earning more money. So we tend to get attached to money. Similarly, we spend a lot of time (consciously or unconsciously) thinking of our children or family. So we get attached to that. In order to reverse the process of attachment to the worldly objects, we need to spend more time with God and attach to God Saints and Scriptures have assures us that this is the way. Taste of the pudding lies in eating. A.H.Dalmia -------------------------------- Dear Sadaks, It looks simple to me. If one is of the mental attitude of " I - Me - Myself " then it is one way to live. If one is of the attitude that nothing is mine, everything is Vasudeva Sarvam Mayam (Everything is God) it is another way to live. So it is double standards. Choice is ours. Reading Geetha explaining talking is only in basic conscience level. To practice one needs blessings of Sri Krishna. The great Sanakadi Saints who has the power to travel to Sri Vaikunt or Kailash has said at the doors of Vaikunt, " We have read all scripts and vedas, but we are unable to put them in practice. The double standards are at very low ebb. But not so at super conscience level. Example: Taking success or failure is in conscience level. For people who leave the expectation of results of success and failure, both are same to them. If another person's son fails in exams, it does not bother you. So if your son fails, if it also does not bother you then you are in single standard. Angulimaala story in Buddha time. Valmiki (who wrote Srimat Ramayan was a thief turned saint) Sinners are potential saints. Saint Poodhanam in Guruvayur lost his son (by accident). His wife became Mad but Poodhanam said, " Oh Krishna you are my son and I do not feel the loss of this son born to me. " It did realy happen that Sri Krishna in a child form came from Sanctum sanctorium and sat on the lap of Poodhanam. For devotees like Poodhanam there is only one standard, and that is exclusive devotions...there is no other ! " Anniya Chintayayome----- " . B.Sathyanarayan -------------------------------- , " sadhak_insight " <sadhak_insight wrote: > > This is a wonderful conversation! I am not very knowledgable, but I > would like to humbly submit a response. > > In Bhagavad Gita, Krishna explains: " The spirit soul, bewildered by > the influence of false ego thinks himself the doer of activities > that are in actuality carried out by the three modes of material > nature. " (Chapter 3, Text27) > > He continues, " Bewildered by the modes of material nature, the > ignorant fully engage themselves in material activities and become > attached. " (3.29) > > And one more quotation: " There are principles to regulate attachment > and aversion pertaining to the senses and their objects. One should > not come under the control of such attachment and aversion, because > they are stumbling blocks on the path of self-realization. " (3.34) > > If we want to make progress on the path towards God, it is important > to fully understand these issues of attachment. What we often > witness is intellectual understanding without full realization - > someone can speak these ideals, but be unable to achieve them in his > or her own life. > > Krishna tells us that material nature (which is actually part of > God's energy and operates under God's direction) is not under our > control. Through our attachment for the objects that give us > pleasure, and aversion to those that give us pain, the material > nature controls us. But, through proper practice, we can start to > understand the situation. Then, when we act in the material world, > although we may be pursuing education or operating a business, our > mentality is that is it all God's energy and all under God's > control. Then, we can work toward one thing or another, and be > undisturbed by success or failure. > > So, what is the process by which we can surpass the shallow > understanding of this philosophy and actually realize it and apply > it to our lives? > > Mrs. Hannah Sandal > --------------------------- > > Dear Sahak, > Krishna asked Arjuna - " Stand up and fight, without thinking or > attaching yourself with the result of the war " Gita, Chapter 2 > He said-fight, fight with all your strength, means put all your > efforts in what you do and leave the result onto HIM. > To apply His principle in our life - put our best efforts into > whatever we do, but leave the success or failure onto HIM. The > result of our actions are not in our hands anyway. > > As you said- " THEY " have double standard- all so called good and > fortunate things are for themselves, and preachings for rest of the > world, it looks like that, it might be our illusion or even if it is > true how does it affect MY SPIRITUAL JOURNEY? Spirituality is the > journey of MY OWN SELF. It has nothing to do with what others think > or do, its all about what I think, and do. > > If I put my best efforts into any action and leave the result to my > Lord, then its fine, I am on the right path. If I KNOW that I am > God's and only God is mine, then I am on right path. If I study Gita > and follow its teaching, then I am on the right path. > Gita Chapter 3-30 " Myi Srvani Karmani -----Vigatjavarah " > " Surrendering all your works unto Me, with mind intent on Me, and > without desire for gain and free from egoism and lethargy, fight. " > When we live in complete surrender, remembering HIM, and working > hard, being free from desire, lethargy and ego-- We are on right > path. > > Krishna says- " All are dear to ME, all are part of ME " chapter 9:6 > So if I am on right path Krishna will take care of all others too as > all are dear to HIM. > > Just go deep inside, and be one with Krishna.....wandering into > outer world does not help a spiritual aspirant. > > with lots of love, > a sadhika > (Sadhana Karigar) > ---------------------------- > , " sadhak_insight " > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > I always hear people quoting the Gita saying - Take success and > > failure alike; Don't get agitated if one is Hindu or Muslim - We > are > > all same. > > > > But the same persons when it comes to their own personal lives, > they > > want their son should be well educated, their own company to not > > undergo losses and their own property should fetch more money etc. > > Why people have these double standards, one for themselves and one > > for the cause of hindu society? > > > > Is Krishna's message right ? and if so, should we apply Krishna's > > idea > > that success and failure are same in all activities whether it be > > success of our own child or not? > > > > Please point Gita sources to help sadhaks get past these double > > standards, if they exist. (Moderator addition) > > > > Raghuram > > > > GUIDELINES FOR POSTING A RESPONSE: > > > > 1. The group is focused on the Holy Gitaji, therefore, only > > responses which further clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will > be > > posted. > > > > 2. Making reference of Gitaji shloka is highly encouraged - at > least > > once in the response. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or > > other scriptures to substantiate your response. > > > > 3. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting > > sadhaka's time. Under no circustance the answer should exceed say > > one page at the most (500 words or so). > > > > 4. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the > > extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas > > > > 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only. > > > > 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other > > organizations. > > > > 7. Complete reproduction of texts from any book is strongly > > discouraged, however references may be made of the book or author > > (but not links to other sites). > > > > 8. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone > > number, address etc. > > > > 9. Please do not address the response to a particular individual > > since the message is going to the entire group. > > > > 10. Due to the large readership, only those responses will be > posted > > which are in line with the general philosophy of taking Shrimad > > Bhagavad Gita as the reference. > > > > 11. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if content > > is unclear for distribution or not directly related to the question > > being asked. > > > > 12. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth, > > westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use of only > > Sanskrit words, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit > > bracketed wherever possible. > > > > MODERATOR > > Ram Ram > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 16, 2008 Report Share Posted July 16, 2008 Who is responsible for the double standards? Bhagavdgita does not put any rule insisting or instructing anybody with any list of musts and must-nots! Vedanta is to attain The Freedom. Therefore, it cannot prescribe any rule as such. Therefore, there is no room for any double standard in Vedanta. All the Upanishads and Bhagavadgita and all such sriptures are univocal in their approach – BE HAPPY . It is very incorrect, rather heinous, on our part to attempt to project our ignorance on the scriptures, or anything else as a matter of fact. If you have a complaint on your state of living, Vedanta offers tools to analyze your problems, processes to identify their root causes and methods to eliminate the same ONLY IF you seek to pursue. Don't blame it on Krishna or Bhagavadgita or anything as such if there is an appearance of double standards. Seeing double standard is (1) useless – it won't help us to remove our difficulties; ( (2) erroneous – we can never understand others fully to draw correct conclusions; (3) incorrect – we have no right to judge others; and (4) a sin – anything that inflicts misery in ourself is a sin and any attempt to judge others invariably hurts us. Therefore, my suggestion is not to waste intellect on attempting to prove others wrong and to apply the same to correct ourselves. If we see double standards in anything, know that the root for the same is within us … not elsewhere. If we want to eliminate a weed, remove its roots … not its leaflets! Bhagavan Vyasa is very emphatic on this matter and all scriptures and practices insist upon the transparency and sincerity in one's approach to spirituality. On example, if we want, is … Na buddhibhedam janayet agnyanaam karmasanginaam | Joshayet sarva karmaani vidvaanyuktah samaacharan || Let us no preach ourselves with ideals and values in the name of Vedanta – then paradox, conflict and confusion will flood our existence. Try to seek, adapt and practice the principles of Vedanta – then we may be able to see through our opaque ignorance – " double standard " – to eventually eliminate the same. Again, anything we do is a sin if it clouds our thoughts with ignorance and hinders our actions with inertia. That means we are doing it wrong. Let us then pause … and correct ourself … if we cannot … at least stop what we are doing. Respects Naga Narayana -- Dear Friends, Success and failure give rise to joy and sorrow. But these are momentary and temporary, but the man who lives with equanimity and one who has viveka or discriminative faculty does not get swayed by the emotional mind, but transcends the mind and lives in true wisdom of the Self. In Ch 12 the appropriate verse about the one God loves describes this as one of the attributes of the true devotee. " That one I love, who is incapable of ill-will, who returns love for hatred. Living beyond the reach of I and Mine, pleasure and pain, full of mercy, ever in harmony accepting good and bad as it comes. Such a one is dear to me. " Sincerely, Dr. Vispi Jokhi -- In Sivanandalahiri, Adi Sankara defines the essence of devotion as the state when the mind is drawn towards God always just as iron is attracted to the magnet or the river seeks the sea. It is easy to quote thousands of similes, metaphors and images to highlight one's views. Instead of iron and magnet or river and sea, one can say tree and soil or fish and water. Then what is the nature of God? Does Krishna respond? Rishis and sanyasins who spend their whole life in devotion to God end their lives in frustration. If we walk along the banks of Varanasi, you will see hundreds of such frustrated faces. The Gita says that Krishna approaches a devotee according to his approach towards him. The Bhagavata Purana says that Bhakti Bhava is seen in a person who thinks of Krishna at all times. However, the Gopikas easily attain the favour and love of Krishna without any detachment which is denied to other devotees who had spent years of detachment from the world for attachment with Krishna. It appears it is all mere assumption. Does it look like appealing to a lifeless character? Isn't an imaginary picture? Radhakrishnan P -- , " sadhak_insight " <sadhak_insight wrote: > > I am of the view that the question of 'Double Standard' arises from > the difference in 'Kathni and Karani'. This means that it is easy to > preach, but difficult to practice. This in no way can reflect on > Gitaji. It is only the individual who behaves like this. What has > that has got to do with what Gitaji's message or central theme > is ? > > Now coming to the question raised by Smt. Sandal, may I say that all > the problem starts with accepting ourselves as the 'Body'. This > invites the concept of 'I and Mine'. This further invites the > concept of 'Attachment'. The cardinal principle is that mind has got > a tendency to get attached to whatever he spends more time in > thinking. Like we spend most time in thinking of earning more money. > So we tend to get attached to money. Similarly, we spend a lot of > time (consciously or unconsciously) thinking of our children or > family. So we get attached to that. > > In order to reverse the process of attachment to the worldly > objects, we need to spend more time with God and attach to God > Saints and Scriptures have assures us that this is the way. Taste of > the pudding lies in eating. > > A.H.Dalmia > -------------------------------- > Dear Sadaks, > > It looks simple to me. If one is of the mental attitude of " I - Me - > Myself " then it is one way to live. > > If one is of the attitude that nothing is mine, everything is > Vasudeva Sarvam Mayam (Everything is God) it is another way to live. > So it is double standards. Choice is ours. > > Reading Geetha explaining talking is only in basic conscience level. > To practice one needs blessings of Sri Krishna. > > The great Sanakadi Saints who has the power to travel to Sri Vaikunt > or Kailash has said at the doors of Vaikunt, " We have read all > scripts and vedas, but we are unable to put them in practice. > > The double standards are at very low ebb. But not so at super > conscience level. Example: > > Taking success or failure is in conscience level. For people who > leave the expectation of results of success and failure, both are > same to them. If another person's son fails in exams, it does not > bother you. So if your son fails, if it also does not bother you > then you are in single standard. > > Angulimaala story in Buddha time. Valmiki (who wrote Srimat Ramayan > was a thief turned saint) Sinners are potential saints. > > Saint Poodhanam in Guruvayur lost his son (by accident). His wife > became Mad but Poodhanam said, " Oh Krishna you are my son and I do > not feel the loss of this son born to me. " It did realy happen that > Sri Krishna in a child form came from Sanctum sanctorium and sat on > the lap of Poodhanam. For devotees like Poodhanam there is only one > standard, and that is exclusive devotions...there is no > other ! " Anniya Chintayayome----- " . > > B.Sathyanarayan > > -------------------------------- > , " sadhak_insight " > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > This is a wonderful conversation! I am not very knowledgable, but > I > > would like to humbly submit a response. > > > > In Bhagavad Gita, Krishna explains: " The spirit soul, bewildered > by > > the influence of false ego thinks himself the doer of activities > > that are in actuality carried out by the three modes of material > > nature. " (Chapter 3, Text27) > > > > He continues, " Bewildered by the modes of material nature, the > > ignorant fully engage themselves in material activities and become > > attached. " (3.29) > > > > And one more quotation: " There are principles to regulate > attachment > > and aversion pertaining to the senses and their objects. One > should > > not come under the control of such attachment and aversion, > because > > they are stumbling blocks on the path of self-realization. " (3.34) > > > > If we want to make progress on the path towards God, it is > important > > to fully understand these issues of attachment. What we often > > witness is intellectual understanding without full realization - > > someone can speak these ideals, but be unable to achieve them in > his > > or her own life. > > > > Krishna tells us that material nature (which is actually part of > > God's energy and operates under God's direction) is not under our > > control. Through our attachment for the objects that give us > > pleasure, and aversion to those that give us pain, the material > > nature controls us. But, through proper practice, we can start to > > understand the situation. Then, when we act in the material world, > > although we may be pursuing education or operating a business, our > > mentality is that is it all God's energy and all under God's > > control. Then, we can work toward one thing or another, and be > > undisturbed by success or failure. > > > > So, what is the process by which we can surpass the shallow > > understanding of this philosophy and actually realize it and apply > > it to our lives? > > > > Mrs. Hannah Sandal > > --------------------------- > > > > Dear Sahak, > > Krishna asked Arjuna - " Stand up and fight, without thinking or > > attaching yourself with the result of the war " Gita, Chapter 2 > > He said-fight, fight with all your strength, means put all your > > efforts in what you do and leave the result onto HIM. > > To apply His principle in our life - put our best efforts into > > whatever we do, but leave the success or failure onto HIM. The > > result of our actions are not in our hands anyway. > > > > As you said- " THEY " have double standard- all so called good and > > fortunate things are for themselves, and preachings for rest of > the > > world, it looks like that, it might be our illusion or even if it > is > > true how does it affect MY SPIRITUAL JOURNEY? Spirituality is the > > journey of MY OWN SELF. It has nothing to do with what others > think > > or do, its all about what I think, and do. > > > > If I put my best efforts into any action and leave the result to > my > > Lord, then its fine, I am on the right path. If I KNOW that I am > > God's and only God is mine, then I am on right path. If I study > Gita > > and follow its teaching, then I am on the right path. > > Gita Chapter 3-30 " Myi Srvani Karmani -----Vigatjavarah " > > " Surrendering all your works unto Me, with mind intent on Me, and > > without desire for gain and free from egoism and lethargy, fight. " > > When we live in complete surrender, remembering HIM, and working > > hard, being free from desire, lethargy and ego-- We are on right > > path. > > > > Krishna says- " All are dear to ME, all are part of ME " chapter 9:6 > > So if I am on right path Krishna will take care of all others too > as > > all are dear to HIM. > > > > Just go deep inside, and be one with Krishna.....wandering into > > outer world does not help a spiritual aspirant. > > > > with lots of love, > > a sadhika > > (Sadhana Karigar) > > ---------------------------- > > , " sadhak_insight " > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > > > I always hear people quoting the Gita saying - Take success and > > > failure alike; Don't get agitated if one is Hindu or Muslim - We > > are > > > all same. > > > > > > But the same persons when it comes to their own personal lives, > > they > > > want their son should be well educated, their own company to not > > > undergo losses and their own property should fetch more money > etc. > > > Why people have these double standards, one for themselves and > one > > > for the cause of hindu society? > > > > > > Is Krishna's message right ? and if so, should we apply Krishna's > > > idea > > > that success and failure are same in all activities whether it be > > > success of our own child or not? > > > > > > Please point Gita sources to help sadhaks get past these double > > > standards, if they exist. (Moderator addition) > > > > > > Raghuram > > > > > > GUIDELINES FOR POSTING A RESPONSE: > > > > > > 1. The group is focused on the Holy Gitaji, therefore, only > > > responses which further clarify the understanding of Gitaji, > will > > be > > > posted. > > > > > > 2. Making reference of Gitaji shloka is highly encouraged - at > > least > > > once in the response. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or > > > other scriptures to substantiate your response. > > > > > > 3. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting > > > sadhaka's time. Under no circustance the answer should exceed say > > > one page at the most (500 words or so). > > > > > > 4. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the > > > extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas > > > > > > 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only. > > > > > > 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other > > > organizations. > > > > > > 7. Complete reproduction of texts from any book is strongly > > > discouraged, however references may be made of the book or > author > > > (but not links to other sites). > > > > > > 8. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone > > > number, address etc. > > > > > > 9. Please do not address the response to a particular individual > > > since the message is going to the entire group. > > > > > > 10. Due to the large readership, only those responses will be > > posted > > > which are in line with the general philosophy of taking Shrimad > > > Bhagavad Gita as the reference. > > > > > > 11. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if > content > > > is unclear for distribution or not directly related to the > question > > > being asked. > > > > > > 12. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth, > > > westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use of only > > > Sanskrit words, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit > > > bracketed wherever possible. > > > > > > MODERATOR > > > Ram Ram > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 17, 2008 Report Share Posted July 17, 2008 Hari Om This is with reference to Sadhak Radhakrishnan's views. One can not say with certainty that – " the Rishis or sanyasins who spend their whole life in devotion to Paramatma end their lives in frustration " . Who can vouch whether they had or did not have inner peace, calm or serenity? Who can say as to how many among such people had actually realised Paramatma then or in later births? Gita clearly says, that whoever turns towards the Paramatma never ends up in frustration. How can we be sure as to in which stage of realisation process they are actually, when we find them or when we think about them ? Scriptures are full of characters like Sudama or Harishchandra, or Sita or Jad Bharata, Shabri, Devaki, who appeared to the outer world as miserable but actually who were Paramatma Realised souls. Look at Holy Cow! How miserable this special creation of Paramatma appears to us? But we all know how worshippable and pious is Cow! We can never judge the devotees of Paramatma from the yardsticks of external riches or prosperity. Frustrated faces seen by you on the banks of Varanasi or Haridwar are no indicators of the fact that there is no Paramatma or there is stone like / lifeless or imaginary Paramatma! Who knows as to whether at all they are devotees of Paramatma or not? How we can arrive at the conclusion that who ever wears saffron cloths and renounces the worldly duties and walks like a beggar on the banks of rivers is in fact a devotee of Paramatma - fit enough to get the realisation ? Is there no possibility of non saffron cloth wearing people also being devotees of Paramatma? Can't they be thugs, or cowards wearing saffron cloths to fill in their bellies? If there are some genuine devotees among them, then how do we know whether or not they have acquired peace, calmness or serenity inside of their hearts ? In fact, it may also be that the adverse circumstances which we see are faced by devotees of Paramatma are in fact especially sent for them by Paramatma so as to check whether His devotees have acquired Equanimity or not. How otherwise acquisition of Equanimity can be ascertained? May be also that the Law of Karma has become fully operational for such devotees to ensure that all of their past sins get extinguished as quicky as possible ! Is there no possibility of the same? You have referred, Sir, to Gopis ! No one can have more attachment to Krishna as they had ! Doing their worldly duties is no indicator of the attachment with the world. We all can very well remain attached to the world for serving the world and doing our duties and still we can " actually " remain attached to Paramatma. Read Bhagavatam, verses and verses, chapters are devoted to Gopi Bhaav only. They were absolutely dedicated to Krishna Bhaav in them. To compare Gopis with any one is inappropriate. You yourself admit that they got Paramatma Realisation ! How can they get realisation, if Paramatma is lifeless like a stone or imaginary? Ultimately, the answer boils down to simple statement – Do you believe that there is an element called Paramatma existing? If yes, then you should also believe in scriptures, in Gita, in the statements and experience of Saints and Sages and in the fact that He is not lifeless or stone like or imaginary. If no, then where is the question of analysis? You are absolutely free, independent and capable in accepting or not accepting the existence of Paramatma !, Pranaam. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B - I am happy to have a chance to share a small insight I have had in the matter of double standards.....though I am most unqualified. I was living in a mandir in Venice, California last year....it closed down due to financial/political considerations. The residents who had given so much time and energy had been told that there was no actual residency permit....after the temple closed, our resident sannyasi went to the government agency which ruled over these matters and found out there was no restriction on residency. How to look in the faces of those who are managers in this sanga, and not feel anger, hatred, fury? My realization was that no one can act beyond what is their level.....if they are simply materialistic, to make some personal profit, will they receive any happiness of prema? No, they will not. So, we should feel sad for someone who is causing some pain to others, though certainly anger may arise also, but in knowledge we know that the demoniac forces are in each and every one of us.....so with forgiveness and kindness we rise above being affected. Even if you, or I, or anyone else, chooses at any time to ignore someone turning to us for help, when it would be just a momentary spurt of energy to give what we can, if we ignore the call, we have to answer within to the Lord. Our personal strength is measured not by how disturbed and upset we become when we see inconsistencies in other's conduct, but rather how much we are unaffected and happy with our focus in life, our relationship with the Lord....despite acknowledging that their are painful situations. And how can we, as conditioned souls, come to this higher level? Associating with those who are there already, and seeing their peace and contentment which is beyond any material considerations. Respectfully Yours, Mahalaksmi Dasi -- , " sadhak_insight " <sadhak_insight wrote: > > Who is responsible for the double standards? > > Bhagavdgita does not put any rule insisting or instructing anybody > with any list of musts and must-nots! Vedanta is to attain The > Freedom. Therefore, it cannot prescribe any rule as such. Therefore, > there is no room for any double standard in Vedanta. All the > Upanishads and Bhagavadgita and all such sriptures are univocal in > their approach – BE HAPPY . > > It is very incorrect, rather heinous, on our part to attempt to > project our ignorance on the scriptures, or anything else as a > matter of fact. If you have a complaint on your state of living, > Vedanta offers tools to analyze your problems, processes to identify > their root causes and methods to eliminate the same ONLY IF you seek > to pursue. Don't blame it on Krishna or Bhagavadgita or anything as > such if there is an appearance of double standards. Seeing double > standard is > (1) useless – it won't help us to remove our difficulties; ( > (2) erroneous – we can never understand others fully to draw correct > conclusions; > (3) incorrect – we have no right to judge others; and > (4) a sin – anything that inflicts misery in ourself is a sin and > any attempt to judge others invariably hurts us. > > Therefore, my suggestion is not to waste intellect on attempting to > prove others wrong and to apply the same to correct ourselves. If we > see double standards in anything, know that the root for the same is > within us … not elsewhere. If we want to eliminate a weed, remove > its roots … not its leaflets! > > Bhagavan Vyasa is very emphatic on this matter and all scriptures > and practices insist upon the transparency and sincerity in one's > approach to spirituality. On example, if we want, is … > > Na buddhibhedam janayet agnyanaam karmasanginaam | > Joshayet sarva karmaani vidvaanyuktah samaacharan || > > Let us no preach ourselves with ideals and values in the name of > Vedanta – then paradox, conflict and confusion will flood our > existence. Try to seek, adapt and practice the principles of > Vedanta – then we may be able to see through our opaque ignorance – > " double standard " – to eventually eliminate the same. Again, > anything we do is a sin if it clouds our thoughts with ignorance and > hinders our actions with inertia. That means we are doing it wrong. > Let us then pause … and correct ourself … if we cannot … at least > stop what we are doing. > > Respects > > Naga Narayana > > - - > Dear Friends, > > Success and failure give rise to joy and sorrow. But these are > momentary and temporary, but the man who lives with equanimity and > one who has viveka or discriminative faculty does not get swayed by > the emotional mind, but transcends the mind and lives in true wisdom > of the Self. In Ch 12 the appropriate verse about the one God loves > describes this as one of the attributes of the true devotee. > " That one I love, who is incapable of ill-will, who returns love > for hatred. Living beyond the reach of I and Mine, pleasure and > pain, full of mercy, ever in harmony accepting good and bad as it > comes. Such a one is dear to me. " > > Sincerely, > Dr. Vispi Jokhi > - - > > In Sivanandalahiri, Adi Sankara defines the essence of devotion as > the state when the mind is drawn towards God always just as iron is > attracted to the magnet or the river seeks the sea. It is easy to > quote thousands of similes, metaphors and images to highlight one's > views. Instead of iron and magnet or river and sea, one can say tree > and soil or fish and water. Then what is the nature of God? Does > Krishna respond? Rishis and sanyasins who spend their whole life in > devotion to God end their lives in frustration. If we walk along the > banks of Varanasi, you will see hundreds of such frustrated faces. > The Gita says that Krishna approaches a devotee according to his > approach towards him. The Bhagavata Purana says that Bhakti Bhava is > seen in a person who thinks of Krishna at all times. However, the > Gopikas easily attain the favour and love of Krishna without any > detachment which is denied to other devotees who had spent years of > detachment from the world for attachment with Krishna. It appears it > is all mere assumption. Does it look like appealing to a lifeless > character? Isn't an imaginary picture? > > Radhakrishnan P > > - - > , " sadhak_insight " > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > I am of the view that the question of 'Double Standard' arises > from > > the difference in 'Kathni and Karani'. This means that it is easy > to > > preach, but difficult to practice. This in no way can reflect on > > Gitaji. It is only the individual who behaves like this. What has > > that has got to do with what Gitaji's message or central theme > > is ? > > > > Now coming to the question raised by Smt. Sandal, may I say that > all > > the problem starts with accepting ourselves as the 'Body'. This > > invites the concept of 'I and Mine'. This further invites the > > concept of 'Attachment'. The cardinal principle is that mind has > got > > a tendency to get attached to whatever he spends more time in > > thinking. Like we spend most time in thinking of earning more > money. > > So we tend to get attached to money. Similarly, we spend a lot of > > time (consciously or unconsciously) thinking of our children or > > family. So we get attached to that. > > > > In order to reverse the process of attachment to the worldly > > objects, we need to spend more time with God and attach to God > > Saints and Scriptures have assures us that this is the way. Taste > of > > the pudding lies in eating. > > > > A.H.Dalmia > > -------------------------------- > > Dear Sadaks, > > > > It looks simple to me. If one is of the mental attitude of " I - > Me - > > Myself " then it is one way to live. > > > > If one is of the attitude that nothing is mine, everything is > > Vasudeva Sarvam Mayam (Everything is God) it is another way to > live. > > So it is double standards. Choice is ours. > > > > Reading Geetha explaining talking is only in basic conscience > level. > > To practice one needs blessings of Sri Krishna. > > > > The great Sanakadi Saints who has the power to travel to Sri > Vaikunt > > or Kailash has said at the doors of Vaikunt, " We have read all > > scripts and vedas, but we are unable to put them in practice. > > > > The double standards are at very low ebb. But not so at super > > conscience level. Example: > > > > Taking success or failure is in conscience level. For people who > > leave the expectation of results of success and failure, both are > > same to them. If another person's son fails in exams, it does not > > bother you. So if your son fails, if it also does not bother you > > then you are in single standard. > > > > Angulimaala story in Buddha time. Valmiki (who wrote Srimat > Ramayan > > was a thief turned saint) Sinners are potential saints. > > > > Saint Poodhanam in Guruvayur lost his son (by accident). His wife > > became Mad but Poodhanam said, " Oh Krishna you are my son and I do > > not feel the loss of this son born to me. " It did realy happen > that > > Sri Krishna in a child form came from Sanctum sanctorium and sat > on > > the lap of Poodhanam. For devotees like Poodhanam there is only > one > > standard, and that is exclusive devotions...there is no > > other ! " Anniya Chintayayome----- " . > > > > B.Sathyanarayan > > > > -------------------------------- > > , " sadhak_insight " > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > > > This is a wonderful conversation! I am not very knowledgable, > but > > I > > > would like to humbly submit a response. > > > > > > In Bhagavad Gita, Krishna explains: " The spirit soul, bewildered > > by > > > the influence of false ego thinks himself the doer of activities > > > that are in actuality carried out by the three modes of material > > > nature. " (Chapter 3, Text27) > > > > > > He continues, " Bewildered by the modes of material nature, the > > > ignorant fully engage themselves in material activities and > become > > > attached. " (3.29) > > > > > > And one more quotation: " There are principles to regulate > > attachment > > > and aversion pertaining to the senses and their objects. One > > should > > > not come under the control of such attachment and aversion, > > because > > > they are stumbling blocks on the path of self-realization. " > (3.34) > > > > > > If we want to make progress on the path towards God, it is > > important > > > to fully understand these issues of attachment. What we often > > > witness is intellectual understanding without full realization - > > > someone can speak these ideals, but be unable to achieve them in > > his > > > or her own life. > > > > > > Krishna tells us that material nature (which is actually part of > > > God's energy and operates under God's direction) is not under > our > > > control. Through our attachment for the objects that give us > > > pleasure, and aversion to those that give us pain, the material > > > nature controls us. But, through proper practice, we can start > to > > > understand the situation. Then, when we act in the material > world, > > > although we may be pursuing education or operating a business, > our > > > mentality is that is it all God's energy and all under God's > > > control. Then, we can work toward one thing or another, and be > > > undisturbed by success or failure. > > > > > > So, what is the process by which we can surpass the shallow > > > understanding of this philosophy and actually realize it and > apply > > > it to our lives? > > > > > > Mrs. Hannah Sandal > > > --------------------------- > > > > > > Dear Sahak, > > > Krishna asked Arjuna - " Stand up and fight, without thinking or > > > attaching yourself with the result of the war " Gita, Chapter 2 > > > He said-fight, fight with all your strength, means put all your > > > efforts in what you do and leave the result onto HIM. > > > To apply His principle in our life - put our best efforts into > > > whatever we do, but leave the success or failure onto HIM. The > > > result of our actions are not in our hands anyway. > > > > > > As you said- " THEY " have double standard- all so called good and > > > fortunate things are for themselves, and preachings for rest of > > the > > > world, it looks like that, it might be our illusion or even if > it > > is > > > true how does it affect MY SPIRITUAL JOURNEY? Spirituality is > the > > > journey of MY OWN SELF. It has nothing to do with what others > > think > > > or do, its all about what I think, and do. > > > > > > If I put my best efforts into any action and leave the result to > > my > > > Lord, then its fine, I am on the right path. If I KNOW that I am > > > God's and only God is mine, then I am on right path. If I study > > Gita > > > and follow its teaching, then I am on the right path. > > > Gita Chapter 3-30 " Myi Srvani Karmani -----Vigatjavarah " > > > " Surrendering all your works unto Me, with mind intent on Me, > and > > > without desire for gain and free from egoism and lethargy, > fight. " > > > When we live in complete surrender, remembering HIM, and > working > > > hard, being free from desire, lethargy and ego-- We are on > right > > > path. > > > > > > Krishna says- " All are dear to ME, all are part of ME " chapter > 9:6 > > > So if I am on right path Krishna will take care of all others > too > > as > > > all are dear to HIM. > > > > > > Just go deep inside, and be one with Krishna.....wandering into > > > outer world does not help a spiritual aspirant. > > > > > > with lots of love, > > > a sadhika > > > (Sadhana Karigar) > > > ---------------------------- > > > , " sadhak_insight " > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > > > > > I always hear people quoting the Gita saying - Take success > and > > > > failure alike; Don't get agitated if one is Hindu or Muslim - > We > > > are > > > > all same. > > > > > > > > But the same persons when it comes to their own personal > lives, > > > they > > > > want their son should be well educated, their own company to > not > > > > undergo losses and their own property should fetch more money > > etc. > > > > Why people have these double standards, one for themselves and > > one > > > > for the cause of hindu society? > > > > > > > > Is Krishna's message right ? and if so, should we apply > Krishna's > > > > idea > > > > that success and failure are same in all activities whether it > be > > > > success of our own child or not? > > > > > > > > Please point Gita sources to help sadhaks get past these double > > > > standards, if they exist. (Moderator addition) > > > > > > > > Raghuram > > > > > > > > GUIDELINES FOR POSTING A RESPONSE: > > > > > > > > 1. The group is focused on the Holy Gitaji, therefore, only > > > > responses which further clarify the understanding of Gitaji, > > will > > > be > > > > posted. > > > > > > > > 2. Making reference of Gitaji shloka is highly encouraged - at > > > least > > > > once in the response. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji > or > > > > other scriptures to substantiate your response. > > > > > > > > 3. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, > respecting > > > > sadhaka's time. Under no circustance the answer should exceed > say > > > > one page at the most (500 words or so). > > > > > > > > 4. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to > the > > > > extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas > > > > > > > > 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only. > > > > > > > > 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other > > > > organizations. > > > > > > > > 7. Complete reproduction of texts from any book is strongly > > > > discouraged, however references may be made of the book or > > author > > > > (but not links to other sites). > > > > > > > > 8. Kindly do not include your personal information such as > phone > > > > number, address etc. > > > > > > > > 9. Please do not address the response to a particular > individual > > > > since the message is going to the entire group. > > > > > > > > 10. Due to the large readership, only those responses will be > > > posted > > > > which are in line with the general philosophy of taking Shrimad > > > > Bhagavad Gita as the reference. > > > > > > > > 11. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if > > content > > > > is unclear for distribution or not directly related to the > > question > > > > being asked. > > > > > > > > 12. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, > youth, > > > > westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use of > only > > > > Sanskrit words, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit > > > > bracketed wherever possible. > > > > > > > > MODERATOR > > > > Ram Ram > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 1, 2008 Report Share Posted August 1, 2008 Double Standards means, incompatiability of Character and Conduct. This is very common in our lives, and most of us conduct in a different way than our character. In fact, Plato considered the subject in 800 BC when ideas of third party justice and republic came first to light. For exampl, a man who is of character of non interfearance can by extraneous reasons become police. Now the conduct and character are in conflict. In Gandhi, in Einstein, Bill Gates, TulsiDas thse defomities are not found because they were not in rat race, and chose a path with awareness. There was DRONACHARYA who was like Plato who considered private life (character) separated from public life (vyavastha, conduction), and double standards could exist in pure form. A thief can be a judge if intersts are not etablished. Laws are meant to conduct, and not character. But in Bhagwa Gita, it is not DRONA (dounble) ACHARYA (standard) but Krishna or Ram who are swabhaav and Karma as One. Best Regards K G (Krishna Gopal) ------------------------------ The Bhagavad Gita places much stress on the need for maintaining equanimity of mind under both adverse and favorable circumstances (Bhagavad Gita: 6.7; 12.18 and 14.25). However, this is easier said than done. In the Shrimad Bhagavata Purana, that relishable text overflowing with the nectar of sweet words fallen from Lord Krishna's delicious lips, the lord says in unambiguous terms: " Whether reproached or insulted, ridiculed or belittled, beaten or bound by ropes, or deprived of one's means of livelihood, spat or urinated upon by the wicked - when one's foundations are shaken in this manner, one should try to redeem oneself by recourse to reason. " Kanayalal Raina --- Dear Sadaks, Are we seeing everyone around as ourselves. Do we not have likes and dislikes within the family. Do we treat a beggar who comes to our house as , " Adithi Devo Bava " . But so many saints did. HOW? Their mind was ONE standard " Servam Jaganatham " . B.Sathyanarayan -------------------------------- , " sadhak_insight " <sadhak_insight wrote: > > Hari Om > > This is with reference to Sadhak Radhakrishnan's views. One can not > say with certainty that – " the Rishis or sanyasins who spend their > whole life in devotion to Paramatma end their lives in frustration " . > Who can vouch whether they had or did not have inner peace, calm or > serenity? Who can say as to how many among such people had actually > realised Paramatma then or in later births? Gita clearly says, that > whoever turns towards the Paramatma never ends up in frustration. > How can we be sure as to in which stage of realisation process they > are actually, when we find them or when we think about them ? > Scriptures are full of characters like Sudama or Harishchandra, or > Sita or Jad Bharata, Shabri, Devaki, who appeared to the outer world > as miserable but actually who were Paramatma Realised souls. Look at > Holy Cow! How miserable this special creation of Paramatma appears > to us? But we all know how worshippable and pious is Cow! We can > never judge the devotees of Paramatma from the yardsticks of > external riches or prosperity. > > Frustrated faces seen by you on the banks of Varanasi or Haridwar > are no indicators of the fact that there is no Paramatma or there is > stone like / lifeless or imaginary Paramatma! Who knows as to > whether at all they are devotees of Paramatma or not? How we can > arrive at the conclusion that who ever wears saffron cloths and > renounces the worldly duties and walks like a beggar on the banks of > rivers is in fact a devotee of Paramatma - fit enough to get the > realisation ? Is there no possibility of non saffron cloth wearing > people also being devotees of Paramatma? Can't they be thugs, or > cowards wearing saffron cloths to fill in their bellies? If there > are some genuine devotees among them, then how do we know whether or > not they have acquired peace, calmness or serenity inside of their > hearts ? > > In fact, it may also be that the adverse circumstances which we > see are faced by devotees of Paramatma are in fact especially sent > for them by Paramatma so as to check whether His devotees have > acquired Equanimity or not. How otherwise acquisition of Equanimity > can be ascertained? May be also that the Law of Karma has become > fully operational for such devotees to ensure that all of their past > sins get extinguished as quicky as possible ! Is there no > possibility of the same? > > You have referred, Sir, to Gopis ! No one can have more attachment > to Krishna as they had ! Doing their worldly duties is no indicator > of the attachment with the world. We all can very well remain > attached to the world for serving the world and doing our duties and > still we can " actually " remain attached to Paramatma. Read > Bhagavatam, verses and verses, chapters are devoted to Gopi Bhaav > only. They were absolutely dedicated to Krishna Bhaav in them. To > compare Gopis with any one is inappropriate. You yourself admit that > they got Paramatma Realisation ! How can they get realisation, if > Paramatma is lifeless like a stone or imaginary? > > Ultimately, the answer boils down to simple statement – Do you > believe that there is an element called Paramatma existing? If yes, > then you should also believe in scriptures, in Gita, in the > statements and experience of Saints and Sages and in the fact that > He is not lifeless or stone like or imaginary. If no, then where is > the question of analysis? You are absolutely free, independent and > capable in accepting or not accepting the existence of Paramatma !, > > Pranaam. > > Jai Shree Krishna > > Vyas N B > - > > I am happy to have a chance to share a small insight I have had in > the matter of double standards.....though I am most unqualified. I > was living in a mandir in Venice, California last year....it closed > down due to financial/political considerations. The residents who > had given so much time and energy had been told that there was no > actual residency permit....after the temple closed, our resident > sannyasi went to the government agency which ruled over these > matters and found out there was no restriction on residency. How to > look in the faces of those who are managers in this sanga, and not > feel anger, hatred, fury? > > My realization was that no one can act beyond what is their > level.....if they are simply materialistic, to make some personal > profit, will they receive any happiness of prema? No, they will > not. So, we should feel sad for someone who is causing some pain to > others, though certainly anger may arise also, but in knowledge we > know that the demoniac forces are in each and every one of us.....so > with forgiveness and kindness we rise above being affected. Even if > you, or I, or anyone else, chooses at any time to ignore someone > turning to us for help, when it would be just a momentary spurt of > energy to give what we can, if we ignore the call, we have to answer > within to the Lord. Our personal strength is measured not by how > disturbed and upset we become when we see inconsistencies in > other's conduct, but rather how much we are unaffected and happy > with our focus in life, our relationship with the Lord....despite > acknowledging that their are painful situations. And how can we, as > conditioned souls, come to this higher level? Associating with > those who are there already, and seeing their peace and contentment > which is beyond any material considerations. > > Respectfully Yours, > > Mahalaksmi Dasi > > -- > , " sadhak_insight " > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > Who is responsible for the double standards? > > > > Bhagavdgita does not put any rule insisting or instructing anybody > > with any list of musts and must-nots! Vedanta is to attain The > > Freedom. Therefore, it cannot prescribe any rule as such. > Therefore, > > there is no room for any double standard in Vedanta. All the > > Upanishads and Bhagavadgita and all such sriptures are univocal in > > their approach – BE HAPPY . > > > > It is very incorrect, rather heinous, on our part to attempt to > > project our ignorance on the scriptures, or anything else as a > > matter of fact. If you have a complaint on your state of living, > > Vedanta offers tools to analyze your problems, processes to > identify > > their root causes and methods to eliminate the same ONLY IF you > seek > > to pursue. Don't blame it on Krishna or Bhagavadgita or anything as > > such if there is an appearance of double standards. Seeing double > > standard is > > (1) useless – it won't help us to remove our difficulties; ( > > (2) erroneous – we can never understand others fully to draw > correct > > conclusions; > > (3) incorrect – we have no right to judge others; and > > (4) a sin – anything that inflicts misery in ourself is a sin and > > any attempt to judge others invariably hurts us. > > > > Therefore, my suggestion is not to waste intellect on attempting > to > > prove others wrong and to apply the same to correct ourselves. If > we > > see double standards in anything, know that the root for the same > is > > within us … not elsewhere. If we want to eliminate a weed, remove > > its roots … not its leaflets! > > > > Bhagavan Vyasa is very emphatic on this matter and all scriptures > > and practices insist upon the transparency and sincerity in one's > > approach to spirituality. On example, if we want, is … > > > > Na buddhibhedam janayet agnyanaam karmasanginaam | > > Joshayet sarva karmaani vidvaanyuktah samaacharan || > > > > Let us no preach ourselves with ideals and values in the name of > > Vedanta – then paradox, conflict and confusion will flood our > > existence. Try to seek, adapt and practice the principles of > > Vedanta – then we may be able to see through our opaque ignorance – > > " double standard " – to eventually eliminate the same. Again, > > anything we do is a sin if it clouds our thoughts with ignorance > and > > hinders our actions with inertia. That means we are doing it > wrong. > > Let us then pause … and correct ourself … if we cannot … at least > > stop what we are doing. > > > > Respects > > > > Naga Narayana > > > > - > - > > Dear Friends, > > > > Success and failure give rise to joy and sorrow. But these are > > momentary and temporary, but the man who lives with equanimity and > > one who has viveka or discriminative faculty does not get swayed > by > > the emotional mind, but transcends the mind and lives in true > wisdom > > of the Self. In Ch 12 the appropriate verse about the one God > loves > > describes this as one of the attributes of the true devotee. > > " That one I love, who is incapable of ill-will, who returns love > > for hatred. Living beyond the reach of I and Mine, pleasure and > > pain, full of mercy, ever in harmony accepting good and bad as it > > comes. Such a one is dear to me. " > > > > Sincerely, > > Dr. Vispi Jokhi > > - > - > > > > In Sivanandalahiri, Adi Sankara defines the essence of devotion as > > the state when the mind is drawn towards God always just as iron > is > > attracted to the magnet or the river seeks the sea. It is easy to > > quote thousands of similes, metaphors and images to highlight > one's > > views. Instead of iron and magnet or river and sea, one can say > tree > > and soil or fish and water. Then what is the nature of God? Does > > Krishna respond? Rishis and sanyasins who spend their whole life > in > > devotion to God end their lives in frustration. If we walk along > the > > banks of Varanasi, you will see hundreds of such frustrated faces. > > The Gita says that Krishna approaches a devotee according to his > > approach towards him. The Bhagavata Purana says that Bhakti Bhava > is > > seen in a person who thinks of Krishna at all times. However, the > > Gopikas easily attain the favour and love of Krishna without any > > detachment which is denied to other devotees who had spent years > of > > detachment from the world for attachment with Krishna. It appears > it > > is all mere assumption. Does it look like appealing to a lifeless > > character? Isn't an imaginary picture? > > > > Radhakrishnan P > > > > - > - > > , " sadhak_insight " > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > > > I am of the view that the question of 'Double Standard' arises > > from > > > the difference in 'Kathni and Karani'. This means that it is > easy > > to > > > preach, but difficult to practice. This in no way can reflect on > > > Gitaji. It is only the individual who behaves like this. What > has > > > that has got to do with what Gitaji's message or central theme > > > is ? > > > > > > Now coming to the question raised by Smt. Sandal, may I say that > > all > > > the problem starts with accepting ourselves as the 'Body'. This > > > invites the concept of 'I and Mine'. This further invites the > > > concept of 'Attachment'. The cardinal principle is that mind has > > got > > > a tendency to get attached to whatever he spends more time in > > > thinking. Like we spend most time in thinking of earning more > > money. > > > So we tend to get attached to money. Similarly, we spend a lot > of > > > time (consciously or unconsciously) thinking of our children or > > > family. So we get attached to that. > > > > > > In order to reverse the process of attachment to the worldly > > > objects, we need to spend more time with God and attach to God > > > Saints and Scriptures have assures us that this is the way. > Taste > > of > > > the pudding lies in eating. > > > > > > A.H.Dalmia > > > ------------------------------- - > > > Dear Sadaks, > > > > > > It looks simple to me. If one is of the mental attitude of " I - > > Me - > > > Myself " then it is one way to live. > > > > > > If one is of the attitude that nothing is mine, everything is > > > Vasudeva Sarvam Mayam (Everything is God) it is another way to > > live. > > > So it is double standards. Choice is ours. > > > > > > Reading Geetha explaining talking is only in basic conscience > > level. > > > To practice one needs blessings of Sri Krishna. > > > > > > The great Sanakadi Saints who has the power to travel to Sri > > Vaikunt > > > or Kailash has said at the doors of Vaikunt, " We have read all > > > scripts and vedas, but we are unable to put them in practice. > > > > > > The double standards are at very low ebb. But not so at super > > > conscience level. Example: > > > > > > Taking success or failure is in conscience level. For people who > > > leave the expectation of results of success and failure, both > are > > > same to them. If another person's son fails in exams, it does > not > > > bother you. So if your son fails, if it also does not bother you > > > then you are in single standard. > > > > > > Angulimaala story in Buddha time. Valmiki (who wrote Srimat > > Ramayan > > > was a thief turned saint) Sinners are potential saints. > > > > > > Saint Poodhanam in Guruvayur lost his son (by accident). His > wife > > > became Mad but Poodhanam said, " Oh Krishna you are my son and I > do > > > not feel the loss of this son born to me. " It did realy happen > > that > > > Sri Krishna in a child form came from Sanctum sanctorium and sat > > on > > > the lap of Poodhanam. For devotees like Poodhanam there is only > > one > > > standard, and that is exclusive devotions...there is no > > > other ! " Anniya Chintayayome----- " . > > > > > > B.Sathyanarayan > > > > > > ------------------------------- - > > > , " sadhak_insight " > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > > > > > This is a wonderful conversation! I am not very knowledgable, > > but > > > I > > > > would like to humbly submit a response. > > > > > > > > In Bhagavad Gita, Krishna explains: " The spirit soul, > bewildered > > > by > > > > the influence of false ego thinks himself the doer of > activities > > > > that are in actuality carried out by the three modes of > material > > > > nature. " (Chapter 3, Text27) > > > > > > > > He continues, " Bewildered by the modes of material nature, the > > > > ignorant fully engage themselves in material activities and > > become > > > > attached. " (3.29) > > > > > > > > And one more quotation: " There are principles to regulate > > > attachment > > > > and aversion pertaining to the senses and their objects. One > > > should > > > > not come under the control of such attachment and aversion, > > > because > > > > they are stumbling blocks on the path of self-realization. " > > (3.34) > > > > > > > > If we want to make progress on the path towards God, it is > > > important > > > > to fully understand these issues of attachment. What we often > > > > witness is intellectual understanding without full > realization - > > > > someone can speak these ideals, but be unable to achieve them > in > > > his > > > > or her own life. > > > > > > > > Krishna tells us that material nature (which is actually part > of > > > > God's energy and operates under God's direction) is not under > > our > > > > control. Through our attachment for the objects that give us > > > > pleasure, and aversion to those that give us pain, the > material > > > > nature controls us. But, through proper practice, we can start > > to > > > > understand the situation. Then, when we act in the material > > world, > > > > although we may be pursuing education or operating a business, > > our > > > > mentality is that is it all God's energy and all under God's > > > > control. Then, we can work toward one thing or another, and be > > > > undisturbed by success or failure. > > > > > > > > So, what is the process by which we can surpass the shallow > > > > understanding of this philosophy and actually realize it and > > apply > > > > it to our lives? > > > > > > > > Mrs. Hannah Sandal > > > > --------------------------- > > > > > > > > Dear Sahak, > > > > Krishna asked Arjuna - " Stand up and fight, without thinking > or > > > > attaching yourself with the result of the war " Gita, Chapter 2 > > > > He said-fight, fight with all your strength, means put all > your > > > > efforts in what you do and leave the result onto HIM. > > > > To apply His principle in our life - put our best efforts into > > > > whatever we do, but leave the success or failure onto HIM. The > > > > result of our actions are not in our hands anyway. > > > > > > > > As you said- " THEY " have double standard- all so called good > and > > > > fortunate things are for themselves, and preachings for rest > of > > > the > > > > world, it looks like that, it might be our illusion or even if > > it > > > is > > > > true how does it affect MY SPIRITUAL JOURNEY? Spirituality is > > the > > > > journey of MY OWN SELF. It has nothing to do with what others > > > think > > > > or do, its all about what I think, and do. > > > > > > > > If I put my best efforts into any action and leave the result > to > > > my > > > > Lord, then its fine, I am on the right path. If I KNOW that I > am > > > > God's and only God is mine, then I am on right path. If I > study > > > Gita > > > > and follow its teaching, then I am on the right path. > > > > Gita Chapter 3-30 " Myi Srvani Karmani -----Vigatjavarah " > > > > " Surrendering all your works unto Me, with mind intent on Me, > > and > > > > without desire for gain and free from egoism and lethargy, > > fight. " > > > > When we live in complete surrender, remembering HIM, and > > working > > > > hard, being free from desire, lethargy and ego-- We are on > > right > > > > path. > > > > > > > > Krishna says- " All are dear to ME, all are part of ME " > chapter > > 9:6 > > > > So if I am on right path Krishna will take care of all others > > too > > > as > > > > all are dear to HIM. > > > > > > > > Just go deep inside, and be one with Krishna.....wandering > into > > > > outer world does not help a spiritual aspirant. > > > > > > > > with lots of love, > > > > a sadhika > > > > (Sadhana Karigar) > > > > ---------------------------- > > > > , " sadhak_insight " > > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I always hear people quoting the Gita saying - Take success > > and > > > > > failure alike; Don't get agitated if one is Hindu or Muslim - > > > We > > > > are > > > > > all same. > > > > > > > > > > But the same persons when it comes to their own personal > > lives, > > > > they > > > > > want their son should be well educated, their own company to > > not > > > > > undergo losses and their own property should fetch more > money > > > etc. > > > > > Why people have these double standards, one for themselves > and > > > one > > > > > for the cause of hindu society? > > > > > > > > > > Is Krishna's message right ? and if so, should we apply > > Krishna's > > > > > idea > > > > > that success and failure are same in all activities whether > it > > be > > > > > success of our own child or not? > > > > > > > > > > Please point Gita sources to help sadhaks get past these > double > > > > > standards, if they exist. (Moderator addition) > > > > > > > > > > Raghuram > > > > > > > > > > GUIDELINES FOR POSTING A RESPONSE: > > > > > > > > > > 1. The group is focused on the Holy Gitaji, therefore, only > > > > > responses which further clarify the understanding of Gitaji, > > > will > > > > be > > > > > posted. > > > > > > > > > > 2. Making reference of Gitaji shloka is highly encouraged - > at > > > > least > > > > > once in the response. Wherever possible, please quote > Gitaji > > or > > > > > other scriptures to substantiate your response. > > > > > > > > > > 3. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, > > respecting > > > > > sadhaka's time. Under no circustance the answer should > exceed > > say > > > > > one page at the most (500 words or so). > > > > > > > > > > 4. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to > > the > > > > > extent that they further help in understanding the Gita > shlokas > > > > > > > > > > 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only. > > > > > > > > > > 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other > > > > > organizations. > > > > > > > > > > 7. Complete reproduction of texts from any book is strongly > > > > > discouraged, however references may be made of the book or > > > author > > > > > (but not links to other sites). > > > > > > > > > > 8. Kindly do not include your personal information such as > > phone > > > > > number, address etc. > > > > > > > > > > 9. Please do not address the response to a particular > > individual > > > > > since the message is going to the entire group. > > > > > > > > > > 10. Due to the large readership, only those responses will > be > > > > posted > > > > > which are in line with the general philosophy of taking > Shrimad > > > > > Bhagavad Gita as the reference. > > > > > > > > > > 11. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if > > > content > > > > > is unclear for distribution or not directly related to the > > > question > > > > > being asked. > > > > > > > > > > 12. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, > > youth, > > > > > westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use of > > only > > > > > Sanskrit words, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit > > > > > bracketed wherever possible. > > > > > > > > > > MODERATOR > > > > > Ram Ram > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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