Guest guest Posted July 7, 2008 Report Share Posted July 7, 2008 -Shree Hari- I would very much appreciate any comments or guidance on my thoughts below regarding surrender, I have listed some of the chapters plus a learned comment, that formulated my thinking. BG 2.7 " Now I am confused about my duty and have lost all composure because of miserly weakness. In this condition I am asking You to tell me for certain what is best for me. Now I am Your disciple, and a soul surrendered unto You. Please instruct me. " BG 3.3 The Supreme Personality of Godhead said: O sinless Arjuna, I have already explained that there are two classes of men who try to realize the self. Some are inclined to understand it by empirical, philosophical speculation, and others by devotional service. A comment on 3.3 The karmi and jnani are different in name only. Actually persons engaged in karma become pure hearted jnanis by the actions. And the jnanis become liberated by bhakti. This is meaning of all my words. BG 3.7 On the other hand, if a sincere person tries to control the active senses by the mind and begins karma-yoga [in Krishna consciousness] without attachment, he is by far superior. Surrender:- From my readings it appears that with jnana , ultimately the aspirant, can hit a brick wall as it were, the mind finds a place it cannot proceed beyond. At that point to surrender to the Divine Lord without reservation, to no longer think in pure logic of the Absolute Truth, and to follow faithfully the path that opens before you with courage. Can open the eyes with wonder, as the Lord shows his presence in all that is revealed, how can a soul be anything but bhakti, after such a moment of truth? With Respect and Divine Love, Mike (Mike Keenor) ----------------------------- GUIDELINES FOR POSTING A RESPONSE: 1. The group is focused on the Holy Gitaji, therefore, only responses which further clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will be posted. 2. Making reference of Gitaji shloka is highly encouraged - at least once in the response. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to substantiate your response. 3. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting sadhaka's time. Under no circustance the answer should exceed say one page at the most (500 words or so). 4. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only. 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other organizations. 7. Complete reproduction of texts from any book is strongly discouraged, however references may be made of the book or author (but not links to other sites). 8. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone number, address etc. 9. Please do not address the response to a particular individual since the message is going to the entire group. 10. Due to the large readership, only those responses will be posted which are in line with the general philosophy of taking Shrimad Bhagavad Gita as the reference. 11. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if content is unclear for distribution or not directly related to the question being asked. 12. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use of only Sanskrit words, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit bracketed wherever possible. MODERATOR Ram Ram Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 8, 2008 Report Share Posted July 8, 2008 Hari Om You have sought comments on certain verses of Gita dealing with Jnana Yoga (JY) , Karma Yoga (KY) and Bhakti Yoga (BY) and on two learned comments, that formulated your thinking. I shall briefly take you through the best on the subject to impart total clarity. The answer shall be in minimum two installments of one page each, maximum three. First Bhagavad Gita 3:3. The correct translation of the verse is as under - " O Sinless Arjuna, in this world a two fold path has been enunciated by Me before, the Path of Knowledge (Jnana Yoga or Sankhya Yoga) for men of renunciation and the Path of Action for men of action (Karma Yoga) " . The correct translation of BG 3:7 is - " But he who controls his senses through the mind, O Arjuna, and engages himself in the path of action, with the organs of action and sense, without being attached, is superior. " Your comment that - " The karmi and jnani are different in name only. Actually, persons engaged in karma become pure hearted jnanis by their actions. And the jnanis become liberated by bhakti. " - can not be said to be entirely correct. Because it pre suposses that the outcome or the end result of these exercises is " purity of heart " while actually the end result of both of them is " liberation " . Further the comment that they are different names only is right from only end result perspective and certainly not from the process followed by them and by the attitude of a Jnana Yogi and a Karma Yogi. (Refer last para of this edition). Secondly this comment presumes that Bhakti is necessary for liberation, but actually Bhakti gets you ever increasing love of God in addition to liberation. Your translation also of the verse does not bring out Karma Yoga clearly and gets rather tilted towards bhakti when you refer devotional service. Here are some good revelations. In this verse the term " loke " stands for " in this world " . Here only two yogas (paths) have been described, not three. Bhakti Yoga is absent here. Reason is that while Jnana Yoga and Karma Yoga are " laukik " (worldly – beliefs/paths to be practiced in relation to the world and worldly things), the Bhakti Yoga is " alaukik " (beyond this world - divine, special path, a belief/path to be practiced in relation to God). Refer also discussion below dealing with perishable/imperishable - both of which elements are worldly only. The term " nishtha " stands for Equanimity, which can be either attained through the path of knowledge or through path of action. (There is very little need of equanimity in fact in Bhakti Yoga) – Refer distinction made by God in Gita 2:39. Corresponding to these two paths there are two types of purushas (men) – Gita 15:16 – one Akshar (Immortal self) and two " Kshar " (mortal world). To remain equanimous in success or failure, or profits or losses (dualities) etc. of the perishable is Karma Yoga, while having disinclination for the perishable and being established in imperishable (self) is Sankhya or Jnana Yoga. But above these two there is the Supreme Person who is beyond the perishable, and is superior to the imperishable, called as Paramatma (God) in the scriptures and Veda (Gita 15:18). Thus a whole hearted surrender to God, is called Discipline of Devotion (Bhakti Yoga). In Karma Yoga there is predominance of perishable, in Sankhya Yoga there is predominance of imperishable and in Bhakti Yoga there is predominance of God. The state of " nishtha " (Equanimity) can be attained by strivers, either through knowledge or through Action, but identification with the God, is not their own (nishtha). In Sankhya state, strivers experience distinctly, the existence of their own selves, as well as, that of the world and try to cut asunder the affinity for the world. A Karma Yogi offers to the world, everything (including even his body), that he has derived from it and removes affinity from the world. In this way both of them get established in their true form – the self. Neither think others as evil doers, nor wish evil to others nor do evil to others- with this outlook " Karma Yoga " begins. Nothing is mine, I need nothing and I have to do nothing for myself – by accepting this truth " Jnana (Sankhya) Yoga " begins. The beauty is that in both the paths of JY and KY there is no need of even thinking about/ focusing/ accepting the existence of God at all. Both JYs and KYs get liberated easily without even imagining about God. It is only in BY that God comes into picture right from beginning. In both JY and KY the God is optional not at all compulsory even upto the final stage. You, Mike has presumed an order of KY first, then JY and then BY as the last. Gita does not to that view. In Gita it is JY, then KY (superior to JY) and then BY (best ). However all three are Independent ways of liberation. If you are determined then you need not take another or additional route to continue your journey, unless when you want love of God also. All three get you liberation. The aforesaid orders therefore are from comfort point of view only. Now coming to how they are different from process point of view. In JY you use your power of " knowing " , in KY your power of " doing " and in BY your power of belief/acceptance. In JY your conscience is the guiding force, in KY it is action and in BY it is emotions of faith/belief. In JY you depend upon self, in KY upon duty and in BY upon God. In JY you renounce ego, in KY " desires " and in BY the mineness with the world. In JY you eliminate ego, in KY you modify/purify ego and in BY you change your ego. In JY you become equal to God, in KY near to God and in BY indivisible with God. A JY is useful to himself, a KY is useful to the world and a BY to the God. In JY your desire to " know something " is extinguished, in KY " to do something " and in BY to get something. In JY you renounce the doership first, in KY you renounce the " enjoyership " and in BY you renounce the " mineness " with the worldly people. In JY you get pleased by self, in KY by seeing others happy, in BY by making God happy.In JY you don't do anything, in KY you do for others only and in BY you do for God. In JY you surrender the things to Nature, in KY to the world and in BY to the God.In JY obstacle is your ego and body, in KY obstacle is your attachment with worldly pleasures and in BY the obstacle is remaining away from God. In JY your karmas get burnt, in KY they become " akarmas " (fruitless) and in BY they become " divya " ( divine). In JY you don't desire anything from anyone, in KY you fulfil desires of others and in BY you merge your desires into the desire of God. In JY you don't consider anyone to be " mine " , in KY all in the world are yours but for selfless service only, and in BY only God is yours. Balance in next edition. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B - It is very interesting to read your teachings ! I personally feel that if one can use the ' INDRIYAS' as tools, ( The sensory organs ) then, one uses the eyes to its fullest - which means that the job of the eyes is only to report - see and report - but, we then remember that all the further decisions are made by the atma or the self which is the life - and if this self is manifested with desires - it does not follow the righteous path, then the eyes are not to blame for reporting ! The BG is the best tool which teaches us how to use these indriyas to our betterment - not to destruction with desires !! Prapati , " sadhak_insight " <sadhak_insight wrote: > > -Shree Hari- > I would very much appreciate any comments or guidance on my thoughts > below regarding surrender, > I have listed some of the chapters plus a learned comment, that > formulated my thinking. > > > BG 2.7 > " Now I am confused about my duty and have lost all composure because > of miserly weakness. In this condition I am asking You to tell me for > certain what is best for me. Now I am Your disciple, and a soul > surrendered unto You. Please instruct me. " > BG 3.3 > The Supreme Personality of Godhead said: O sinless Arjuna, I have > already explained that there are two classes of men who try to > realize > the self. Some are inclined to understand it by empirical, > philosophical speculation, and others by devotional service. > > A comment on 3.3 > The karmi and jnani are different in name only. Actually persons > engaged in karma become pure hearted jnanis by the actions. And the > jnanis become liberated by bhakti. This is meaning of all my words. > > BG 3.7 > On the other hand, if a sincere person tries to control the active > senses by the mind and begins karma-yoga [in Krishna consciousness] > without attachment, he is by far superior. > > Surrender:- > > From my readings it appears that with jnana , ultimately the > aspirant, can hit a brick wall as it were, the mind finds a place > it cannot proceed beyond. At that point to surrender to the Divine > Lord without reservation, to no longer think in pure logic of the > Absolute Truth, and to follow faithfully the path that opens before > you with courage. Can open the eyes with wonder, as the Lord shows > his presence in all that is revealed, how can a soul be anything but > bhakti, after such a moment of truth? > > With Respect and Divine Love, > > Mike > (Mike Keenor) > > ----------------------------- > > > GUIDELINES FOR POSTING A RESPONSE: > > 1. The group is focused on the Holy Gitaji, therefore, only > responses which further clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will be > posted. > > 2. Making reference of Gitaji shloka is highly encouraged - at least > once in the response. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or > other scriptures to substantiate your response. > > 3. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting > sadhaka's time. Under no circustance the answer should exceed say > one page at the most (500 words or so). > > 4. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the > extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas > > 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only. > > 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other > organizations. > > 7. Complete reproduction of texts from any book is strongly > discouraged, however references may be made of the book or author > (but not links to other sites). > > 8. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone > number, address etc. > > 9. Please do not address the response to a particular individual > since the message is going to the entire group. > > 10. Due to the large readership, only those responses will be posted > which are in line with the general philosophy of taking Shrimad > Bhagavad Gita as the reference. > > 11. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if content > is unclear for distribution or not directly related to the question > being asked. > > 12. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth, > westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use of only > Sanskrit words, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit > bracketed wherever possible. > > MODERATOR > Ram Ram > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 9, 2008 Report Share Posted July 9, 2008 Hari Hari! In considering this current conversation, I looked to chapter twelve of the Gita, entitled " Devotional Service " . Please forgive my quoting of several verses: 12.6-7 But those who worship Me, giving up all their activities unto Me and being devoted to Me without deviation, engaged in devotional service and always meditating upon Me, having fixed their minds upon Me, O son of Pritha for them I am the swift deliverer from the ocean of birth and death. BG 12.8: Just fix your mind upon Me, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and engage all your intelligence in Me. Thus you will live in Me always, without a doubt. BG 12.9: My dear Arjuna, O winner of wealth, if you cannot fix your mind upon Me without deviation, then follow the regulative principles of bhakti-yoga. In this way develop a desire to attain Me. BG 12.10: If you cannot practice the regulations of bhakti-yoga, then just try to work for Me, because by working for Me you will come to the perfect stage. BG 12.11: If, however, you are unable to work in this consciousness of Me, then try to act giving up all results of your work and try to be self-situated. BG 12.12: If you cannot take to this practice, then engage yourself in the cultivation of knowledge. Better than knowledge, however, is meditation, and better than meditation is renunciation of the fruits of action, for by such renunciation one can attain peace of mind. Here, Krishna outlines the options available to us, and encourages them to pursue them to the best of our ability. He says that cultivation of knolwedge (JYoga) and renunciation of the fruits of action (KYoga) are both beneficial on the path towards liberation because they help us develop a " desire to attain " God. We can use our intelliegence to understand the philosophy of God, and we can use our ability to renounce to practice controlling our mind. Bhakti yoga provides principles to practice loving service to God. We can see in 12.6-7 that the goal of all of this is to be 100% fixed in a relationship of devotional service with the Supreme Lord. It is at this point that God provides liberation to those who are devoted to him. One final note, is that we are perhaps working from different translations. I am of the opinion that each person should study the authors of the translations, and the quality of different translations, and find the one that is most in line with their own purposes. The differences arise from the difference between English and Sanskrit: there are words in Sanskrit that have many meanings, and these meanings are dependant upon grammar, spelling, and context. Translation into English is not always straightforward, and frequently depends upon the background and purpose of the translator. You'll find, for example, a very different translation of the Gita used for learning Sanskrit in American universities. your servant, H. Sandal (Hannah Sandal) -------------------------- Dear Sadhakas, Namaste! The essence of the verses mentioned by Mike Keenor has been captured in his own words. I would like to suggest, however, that we don't need to consider any one path being superior to other paths toward Self-God Realization. If Self-God realization were to mean freedom from sorrows and to live in unconditional Love serving all, it is all the more important to see all paths being equal even if they differ in their approaches. If the ultimate results are the same, there is no need to compare any paths as being superior or inferior. Krishnaji may have said only to emphasize that all can attain such freedom even if they are not prone to one or the other paths. We need to see that God is not separate from such a Gyani, or Karma- Yogi or Devotee! Gita says God is Devotion in Bhakta, Truth-Being- Self in Gyani and self-less actions in Karm-Yogi. Ultimately that is what happens to Bhakta(Devotee), Karma-Yogi(person of selfless action), and Gyani(Self-realized). Some of us are naturally inclined to do Karmas! To make their Karmas not binding and yet serve those who are in need, Gita prescribes the Karma-Yoga meaning self-less actions. By performing actions without assuming doership, guided by righteousness, frees one from Bondage due to karmas. Unless one has total devotion while performing actions and total surrender of results to God, one just cannot do such self-less actions. Thus Karma-Yogi is also doing Bhakti, leading to freedom(moksha) from sorrows. He will eventually realize his true nature being Sat-Chit- Ananda(Supreme Consciousness, not an individual). In the same way one who is given to inquiry, is a Truth Seeker. He/She will in time become Truth Lover by seeking nothing but Truth. Upon experiencing glimpses of truth in daily life, the devotion to Truth becomes intense. So again such a truth lover is also devotee- bhakta of Truth, same as God and then attains knowledge of who he/she is in reality and thus perfection! In my experience, one just doesn't follow only one path, rather one integrates all such paths and God given resoureces! As we all know, no one can remain without actions, and all of us have quality of devotion at least in something we do! In the times we are living at present, it is more appropriate to perform Karmas with the best of one's ability to serve humanity, assuming no-doership thereof and to accept or rather welcome results of such actions. This will automatically leads one to wonder and inquire about the nature of God, world, and oneself. Upon contemplation of all three, one will realize the truth of them and eventually get established in True Self. Out of such knowledge one becomes a mystic, so to speak, and his/her existence is aligned with Totality or wholeness of Being in which individuality is absorbed. God is just the name to such Experience of Being everything, which is Absolute Existence and thus Ananda. Namaskars...Pratap (Pratap Bhatt) - , " sadhak_insight " <sadhak_insight wrote: > > Hari Om > > You have sought comments on certain verses of Gita dealing with > Jnana Yoga (JY) , Karma Yoga (KY) and Bhakti Yoga (BY) and on two > learned comments, that formulated your thinking. I shall briefly > take you through the best on the subject to impart total clarity. > The answer shall be in minimum two installments of one page each, > maximum three. > > First Bhagavad Gita 3:3. The correct translation of the verse is as > under - " O Sinless Arjuna, in this world a two fold path has been > enunciated by Me before, the Path of Knowledge (Jnana Yoga or > Sankhya Yoga) for men of renunciation and the Path of Action for > men of action (Karma Yoga) " . > > The correct translation of BG 3:7 is - " But he who controls his > senses through the mind, O Arjuna, and engages himself in the path > of action, with the organs of action and sense, without being > attached, is superior. " > > Your comment that - " The karmi and jnani are different in name only. > Actually, persons engaged in karma become pure hearted jnanis by > their actions. And the jnanis become liberated by bhakti. " - can > not be said to be entirely correct. Because it pre suposses that the > outcome or the end result of these exercises is " purity of heart " > while actually the end result of both of them is " liberation " . > Further the comment that they are different names only is right from > only end result perspective and certainly not from the process > followed by them and by the attitude of a Jnana Yogi and a Karma > Yogi. (Refer last para of this edition). Secondly this comment > presumes that Bhakti is necessary for liberation, but actually > Bhakti gets you ever increasing love of God in addition to > liberation. Your translation also of the verse does not bring out > Karma Yoga clearly and gets rather tilted towards bhakti when you > refer devotional service. Here are some good revelations. > > In this verse the term " loke " stands for " in this world " . Here only > two yogas (paths) have been described, not three. Bhakti Yoga is > absent here. Reason is that while Jnana Yoga and Karma Yoga > are " laukik " (worldly – beliefs/paths to be practiced in relation to > the world and worldly things), the Bhakti Yoga is " alaukik " > (beyond this world - divine, special path, a belief/path to be > practiced in relation to God). Refer also discussion below dealing > with perishable/imperishable - both of which elements are worldly > only. > > The term " nishtha " stands for Equanimity, which can be either > attained through the path of knowledge or through path of action. > (There is very little need of equanimity in fact in Bhakti Yoga) – > Refer distinction made by God in Gita 2:39. > > Corresponding to these two paths there are two types of purushas > (men) – Gita 15:16 – one Akshar (Immortal self) and two " Kshar " > (mortal world). To remain equanimous in success or failure, or > profits or losses (dualities) etc. of the perishable is Karma Yoga, > while having disinclination for the perishable and being established > in imperishable (self) is Sankhya or Jnana Yoga. But above these two > there is the Supreme Person who is beyond the perishable, and is > superior to the imperishable, called as Paramatma (God) in the > scriptures and Veda (Gita 15:18). Thus a whole hearted surrender to > God, is called Discipline of Devotion (Bhakti Yoga). In Karma Yoga > there is predominance of perishable, in Sankhya Yoga there is > predominance of imperishable and in Bhakti Yoga there is > predominance of God. > > The state of " nishtha " (Equanimity) can be attained by strivers, > either through knowledge or through Action, but identification with > the God, is not their own (nishtha). In Sankhya state, strivers > experience distinctly, the existence of their own selves, as well > as, that of the world and try to cut asunder the affinity for the > world. A Karma Yogi offers to the world, everything (including even > his body), that he has derived from it and removes affinity from > the world. In this way both of them get established in their true > form – the self. > > Neither think others as evil doers, nor wish evil to others nor do > evil to others- with this outlook " Karma Yoga " begins. Nothing is > mine, I need nothing and I have to do nothing for myself – by > accepting this truth " Jnana (Sankhya) Yoga " begins. > > The beauty is that in both the paths of JY and KY there is no need > of even thinking about/ focusing/ accepting the existence of God at > all. Both JYs and KYs get liberated easily without even imagining > about God. It is only in BY that God comes into picture right from > beginning. In both JY and KY the God is optional not at all > compulsory even upto the final stage. > > You, Mike has presumed an order of KY first, then JY and then BY as > the last. Gita does not to that view. In Gita it is JY, > then KY (superior to JY) and then BY (best ). However all three are > Independent ways of liberation. If you are determined then you need > not take another or additional route to continue your journey, > unless when you want love of God also. All three get you > liberation. > > The aforesaid orders therefore are from comfort point of view only. > > Now coming to how they are different from process point of view. In > JY you use your power of " knowing " , in KY your power of " doing " and > in BY your power of belief/acceptance. In JY your conscience is the > guiding force, in KY it is action and in BY it is emotions of > faith/belief. In JY you depend upon self, in KY upon duty and in BY > upon God. In JY you renounce ego, in KY " desires " and in BY the > mineness with the world. In JY you eliminate ego, in KY you > modify/purify ego and in BY you change your ego. In JY you become > equal to God, in KY near to God and in BY indivisible with God. A JY > is useful to himself, a KY is useful to the world and a BY to the > God. In JY your desire to " know something " is extinguished, in > KY " to do something " and in BY to get something. In JY you renounce > the doership first, in KY you renounce the " enjoyership " and in BY > you renounce the " mineness " with the worldly people. In JY you get > pleased by self, in KY by seeing others happy, in BY by making God > happy.In JY you don't do anything, in KY you do for others only and > in BY you do for God. In JY you surrender the things to Nature, in > KY to the world and in BY to the God.In JY obstacle is your ego and > body, in KY obstacle is your attachment with worldly pleasures and > in BY the obstacle is remaining away from God. In JY your karmas get > burnt, in KY they become " akarmas " (fruitless) and in BY they > become " divya " ( divine). In JY you don't desire anything from > anyone, in KY you fulfil desires of others and in BY you merge your > desires into the desire of God. In JY you don't consider anyone to > be " mine " , in KY all in the world are yours but for selfless > service only, and in BY only God is yours. > > Balance in next edition. > > Jai Shree Krishna > > Vyas N B > - > It is very interesting to read your teachings ! I personally feel > that if one can use the ' INDRIYAS' as tools, ( The sensory > organs ) then, one uses the eyes to its fullest - which means that > the job of the eyes is only to report - see and report - but, we > then remember that all the further decisions are made by the atma or > the self which is the life - and if this self is manifested with > desires - it does not follow the righteous path, then the eyes are > not to blame for reporting ! The BG is the best tool which teaches > us how to use these indriyas to our betterment - not to destruction > with desires !! > > Prapati > > > , " sadhak_insight " > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > -Shree Hari- > > I would very much appreciate any comments or guidance on my > thoughts > > below regarding surrender, > > I have listed some of the chapters plus a learned comment, that > > formulated my thinking. > > > > > > BG 2.7 > > " Now I am confused about my duty and have lost all composure > because > > of miserly weakness. In this condition I am asking You to tell me > for > > certain what is best for me. Now I am Your disciple, and a soul > > surrendered unto You. Please instruct me. " > > BG 3.3 > > The Supreme Personality of Godhead said: O sinless Arjuna, I have > > already explained that there are two classes of men who try to > > realize > > the self. Some are inclined to understand it by empirical, > > philosophical speculation, and others by devotional service. > > > > A comment on 3.3 > > The karmi and jnani are different in name only. Actually persons > > engaged in karma become pure hearted jnanis by the actions. And the > > jnanis become liberated by bhakti. This is meaning of all my words. > > > > BG 3.7 > > On the other hand, if a sincere person tries to control the active > > senses by the mind and begins karma-yoga [in Krishna consciousness] > > without attachment, he is by far superior. > > > > Surrender:- > > > > From my readings it appears that with jnana , ultimately the > > aspirant, can hit a brick wall as it were, the mind finds a place > > it cannot proceed beyond. At that point to surrender to the > Divine > > Lord without reservation, to no longer think in pure logic of the > > Absolute Truth, and to follow faithfully the path that opens > before > > you with courage. Can open the eyes with wonder, as the Lord shows > > his presence in all that is revealed, how can a soul be anything > but > > bhakti, after such a moment of truth? > > > > With Respect and Divine Love, > > > > Mike > > (Mike Keenor) > > > > ----------------------------- > > > > > > GUIDELINES FOR POSTING A RESPONSE: > > > > 1. The group is focused on the Holy Gitaji, therefore, only > > responses which further clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will > be > > posted. > > > > 2. Making reference of Gitaji shloka is highly encouraged - at > least > > once in the response. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or > > other scriptures to substantiate your response. > > > > 3. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting > > sadhaka's time. Under no circustance the answer should exceed say > > one page at the most (500 words or so). > > > > 4. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the > > extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas > > > > 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only. > > > > 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other > > organizations. > > > > 7. Complete reproduction of texts from any book is strongly > > discouraged, however references may be made of the book or author > > (but not links to other sites). > > > > 8. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone > > number, address etc. > > > > 9. Please do not address the response to a particular individual > > since the message is going to the entire group. > > > > 10. Due to the large readership, only those responses will be > posted > > which are in line with the general philosophy of taking Shrimad > > Bhagavad Gita as the reference. > > > > 11. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if > content > > is unclear for distribution or not directly related to the > question > > being asked. > > > > 12. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth, > > westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use of only > > Sanskrit words, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit > > bracketed wherever possible. > > > > MODERATOR > > Ram Ram > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 9, 2008 Report Share Posted July 9, 2008 Hari Om Re Sadhak Mike " s Query Let us now talk about surrender. Your 2nd learned comment is indeed soul touching and is almost perfect. However as stated in previous episode the Bhakti Yoga is independent and therefore the surrender doesnot begin when the limitation of mind is realised. It is a principle that mind and intellect cannot reach God because both are part of Nature (Prakrati) and God is beyond the Nature. However you can always change the focus ( direction) of mind and intellect from the world to the God. That in itself is more than sufficient. Bhakti Yoga begins with the outlook - " I am of the God and only God is mine, and nobody else is mine " and attains perfection when you start seeing/ experiencing presence of God everywhere. Read carefully the process differences given by me in the previous edition. There are dozens or more such differences but due to space constraints I have given briefly. They are really important from spiritual practice point of view. From your second comment it has been revealed to me that you have set the goal for yourself to feel the presence of God everywhere. Believe me that goal is perfect- It is ultimate and real Bhakti Yoga- let me tell you. " VASUDEVAH SARVAM " – All this is God (Gita 7:19) is the final conclusion of Gita and the surrender is the ultimate weapon which an aspirant has in his spiritual journey- there is no doubt on these two. In fact Gita begins with surrender ( BG 2:7 quoted by you too) and ends with surrender (18:66). God starts conversation talking about " WORRYING " to Arjuna ( 2:11) and ends his conversation telling Arjuna not to worry( 18:66). I would suggest you read " Saadhak Sanjeevani " a Treatise on Gita by Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj, the English Edition of which is also there. That will solve translation confusions of the verses forever for you and it is so vast, comprehensive and clear that merely by reading you may change your perceptions and it shall enthuse you in your journey in a miraculous manner. If I get address I may ensure you get latest copy of the same by post. In my eyes it is an essential commentary and the ULTIMATE ON GITA. No other detailed commentary has the depth of cross reference and can even be a semblance of it- it is my experience. It is the best on the subject, written by a God realised soul exclusively to help aspirants only. Hope I have been able to provide clarity. Everything which I write is from the books and discourses of Swamiji only. Only the translation or presentation is mine. Pls do write if you need more clarification . Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B - , " sadhak_insight " <sadhak_insight wrote: > > Hari Hari! > In considering this current conversation, I looked to chapter twelve > of the Gita, entitled " Devotional Service " . Please forgive my > quoting of several verses: > > 12.6-7 But those who worship Me, giving up all their activities > unto Me and being devoted to Me without deviation, engaged in > devotional service and always meditating upon Me, having fixed their > minds upon Me, O son of Pritha for them I am the swift deliverer > from the ocean of birth and death. > > BG 12.8: Just fix your mind upon Me, the Supreme Personality of > Godhead, and engage all your intelligence in Me. Thus you will live > in Me always, without a doubt. > > BG 12.9: My dear Arjuna, O winner of wealth, if you cannot fix your > mind upon Me without deviation, then follow the regulative > principles of bhakti-yoga. In this way develop a desire to attain Me. > > BG 12.10: If you cannot practice the regulations of bhakti-yoga, > then just try to work for Me, because by working for Me you will > come to the perfect stage. > > BG 12.11: If, however, you are unable to work in this consciousness > of Me, then try to act giving up all results of your work and try to > be self-situated. > > BG 12.12: If you cannot take to this practice, then engage yourself > in the cultivation of knowledge. Better than knowledge, however, is > meditation, and better than meditation is renunciation of the fruits > of action, for by such renunciation one can attain peace of mind. > > Here, Krishna outlines the options available to us, and encourages > them to pursue them to the best of our ability. He says that > cultivation of knolwedge (JYoga) and renunciation of the fruits of > action (KYoga) are both beneficial on the path towards liberation > because they help us develop a " desire to attain " God. We can use > our intelliegence to understand the philosophy of God, and we > can use our ability to renounce to practice controlling our mind. > Bhakti yoga provides principles to practice loving service to God. > We can see in 12.6-7 that the goal of all of this is to be 100% > fixed in a relationship of devotional service with the Supreme Lord. > It is at this point that God provides liberation to those who are > devoted to him. > > One final note, is that we are perhaps working from different > translations. I am of the opinion that each person should study the > authors of the translations, and the quality of different > translations, and find the one that is most in line with their own > purposes. The differences arise from the difference between > English and Sanskrit: there are words in Sanskrit that have many > meanings, and these meanings are dependant upon grammar, spelling, > and context. Translation into English is not always straightforward, > and frequently depends upon the background and purpose of the > translator. You'll find, for example, a very different translation > of the Gita used for learning Sanskrit in American universities. > > your servant, > H. Sandal > (Hannah Sandal) > -------------------------- > Dear Sadhakas, Namaste! > > The essence of the verses mentioned by Mike Keenor has been captured > in his own words. > > I would like to suggest, however, that we don't need to consider any > one path being superior to other paths toward Self-God Realization. > If Self-God realization were to mean freedom from sorrows and to > live in unconditional Love serving all, it is all the more important > to see all paths being equal even if they differ in their > approaches. If the ultimate results are the same, there is no need > to compare any paths as being superior or inferior. Krishnaji may > have said only to emphasize that all can attain such freedom even if > they are not prone to one or the other paths. > > We need to see that God is not separate from such a Gyani, or Karma- > Yogi or Devotee! Gita says God is Devotion in Bhakta, Truth-Being- > Self in Gyani and self-less actions in Karm-Yogi. Ultimately that is > what happens to Bhakta(Devotee), Karma-Yogi(person of selfless > action), and Gyani(Self-realized). > > Some of us are naturally inclined to do Karmas! To make their Karmas > not binding and yet serve those who are in need, Gita prescribes the > Karma-Yoga meaning self-less actions. > > By performing actions without assuming doership, guided by > righteousness, frees one from Bondage due to karmas. Unless one has > total devotion while performing actions and total surrender of > results to God, one just cannot do such self-less actions. Thus > Karma-Yogi is also doing Bhakti, leading to freedom(moksha) from > sorrows. He will eventually realize his true nature being Sat-Chit- > Ananda(Supreme Consciousness, not an individual). > > In the same way one who is given to inquiry, is a Truth Seeker. > He/She will in time become Truth Lover by seeking nothing but Truth. > Upon experiencing glimpses of truth in daily life, the devotion to > Truth becomes intense. So again such a truth lover is also devotee- > bhakta of Truth, same as God and then attains knowledge of who > he/she is in reality and thus perfection! > > In my experience, one just doesn't follow only one path, rather one > integrates all such paths and God given resoureces! As we all know, > no one can remain without actions, and all of us have quality of > devotion at least in something we do! > > In the times we are living at present, it is more appropriate to > perform Karmas with the best of one's ability to serve humanity, > assuming no-doership thereof and to accept or rather welcome results > of such actions. This will automatically leads one to wonder and > inquire about the nature of God, world, and oneself. Upon > contemplation of all three, one will realize the truth of them and > eventually get established in True Self. Out of such knowledge one > becomes a mystic, so to speak, and his/her existence is aligned with > Totality or wholeness of Being in which individuality is absorbed. > God is just the name to such Experience of Being everything, which > is Absolute Existence and thus Ananda. > > Namaskars...Pratap > (Pratap Bhatt) > > - > > > , " sadhak_insight " > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > Hari Om > > > > You have sought comments on certain verses of Gita dealing with > > Jnana Yoga (JY) , Karma Yoga (KY) and Bhakti Yoga (BY) and on two > > learned comments, that formulated your thinking. I shall briefly > > take you through the best on the subject to impart total clarity. > > The answer shall be in minimum two installments of one page each, > > maximum three. > > > > First Bhagavad Gita 3:3. The correct translation of the verse is > as > > under - " O Sinless Arjuna, in this world a two fold path has > been > > enunciated by Me before, the Path of Knowledge (Jnana Yoga or > > Sankhya Yoga) for men of renunciation and the Path of Action for > > men of action (Karma Yoga) " . > > > > The correct translation of BG 3:7 is - " But he who controls his > > senses through the mind, O Arjuna, and engages himself in the path > > of action, with the organs of action and sense, without being > > attached, is superior. " > > > > Your comment that - " The karmi and jnani are different in name > only. > > Actually, persons engaged in karma become pure hearted jnanis by > > their actions. And the jnanis become liberated by bhakti. " - can > > not be said to be entirely correct. Because it pre suposses that > the > > outcome or the end result of these exercises is " purity of heart " > > while actually the end result of both of them is " liberation " . > > Further the comment that they are different names only is right > from > > only end result perspective and certainly not from the process > > followed by them and by the attitude of a Jnana Yogi and a Karma > > Yogi. (Refer last para of this edition). Secondly this comment > > presumes that Bhakti is necessary for liberation, but actually > > Bhakti gets you ever increasing love of God in addition to > > liberation. Your translation also of the verse does not bring out > > Karma Yoga clearly and gets rather tilted towards bhakti when you > > refer devotional service. Here are some good revelations. > > > > In this verse the term " loke " stands for " in this world " . Here > only > > two yogas (paths) have been described, not three. Bhakti Yoga is > > absent here. Reason is that while Jnana Yoga and Karma Yoga > > are " laukik " (worldly – beliefs/paths to be practiced in relation > to > > the world and worldly things), the Bhakti Yoga is " alaukik " > > (beyond this world - divine, special path, a belief/path to be > > practiced in relation to God). Refer also discussion below dealing > > with perishable/imperishable - both of which elements are worldly > > only. > > > > The term " nishtha " stands for Equanimity, which can be either > > attained through the path of knowledge or through path of action. > > (There is very little need of equanimity in fact in Bhakti Yoga) – > > Refer distinction made by God in Gita 2:39. > > > > Corresponding to these two paths there are two types of purushas > > (men) – Gita 15:16 – one Akshar (Immortal self) and two " Kshar " > > (mortal world). To remain equanimous in success or failure, or > > profits or losses (dualities) etc. of the perishable is Karma > Yoga, > > while having disinclination for the perishable and being > established > > in imperishable (self) is Sankhya or Jnana Yoga. But above these > two > > there is the Supreme Person who is beyond the perishable, and is > > superior to the imperishable, called as Paramatma (God) in the > > scriptures and Veda (Gita 15:18). Thus a whole hearted surrender > to > > God, is called Discipline of Devotion (Bhakti Yoga). In Karma Yoga > > there is predominance of perishable, in Sankhya Yoga there is > > predominance of imperishable and in Bhakti Yoga there is > > predominance of God. > > > > The state of " nishtha " (Equanimity) can be attained by strivers, > > either through knowledge or through Action, but identification > with > > the God, is not their own (nishtha). In Sankhya state, strivers > > experience distinctly, the existence of their own selves, as well > > as, that of the world and try to cut asunder the affinity for the > > world. A Karma Yogi offers to the world, everything (including > even > > his body), that he has derived from it and removes affinity from > > the world. In this way both of them get established in their true > > form – the self. > > > > Neither think others as evil doers, nor wish evil to others nor do > > evil to others- with this outlook " Karma Yoga " begins. Nothing is > > mine, I need nothing and I have to do nothing for myself – by > > accepting this truth " Jnana (Sankhya) Yoga " begins. > > > > The beauty is that in both the paths of JY and KY there is no need > > of even thinking about/ focusing/ accepting the existence of God > at > > all. Both JYs and KYs get liberated easily without even imagining > > about God. It is only in BY that God comes into picture right from > > beginning. In both JY and KY the God is optional not at all > > compulsory even upto the final stage. > > > > You, Mike has presumed an order of KY first, then JY and then BY > as > > the last. Gita does not to that view. In Gita it is JY, > > then KY (superior to JY) and then BY (best ). However all three > are > > Independent ways of liberation. If you are determined then you > need > > not take another or additional route to continue your journey, > > unless when you want love of God also. All three get you > > liberation. > > > > The aforesaid orders therefore are from comfort point of view only. > > > > Now coming to how they are different from process point of view. > In > > JY you use your power of " knowing " , in KY your power of " doing " > and > > in BY your power of belief/acceptance. In JY your conscience is > the > > guiding force, in KY it is action and in BY it is emotions of > > faith/belief. In JY you depend upon self, in KY upon duty and in > BY > > upon God. In JY you renounce ego, in KY " desires " and in BY the > > mineness with the world. In JY you eliminate ego, in KY you > > modify/purify ego and in BY you change your ego. In JY you become > > equal to God, in KY near to God and in BY indivisible with God. A > JY > > is useful to himself, a KY is useful to the world and a BY to the > > God. In JY your desire to " know something " is extinguished, in > > KY " to do something " and in BY to get something. In JY you > renounce > > the doership first, in KY you renounce the " enjoyership " and in BY > > you renounce the " mineness " with the worldly people. In JY you get > > pleased by self, in KY by seeing others happy, in BY by making God > > happy.In JY you don't do anything, in KY you do for others only > and > > in BY you do for God. In JY you surrender the things to Nature, in > > KY to the world and in BY to the God.In JY obstacle is your ego > and > > body, in KY obstacle is your attachment with worldly pleasures and > > in BY the obstacle is remaining away from God. In JY your karmas > get > > burnt, in KY they become " akarmas " (fruitless) and in BY they > > become " divya " ( divine). In JY you don't desire anything from > > anyone, in KY you fulfil desires of others and in BY you merge > your > > desires into the desire of God. In JY you don't consider anyone to > > be " mine " , in KY all in the world are yours but for selfless > > service only, and in BY only God is yours. > > > > Balance in next edition. > > > > Jai Shree Krishna > > > > Vyas N B > > -------------------------------- -- > > It is very interesting to read your teachings ! I personally feel > > that if one can use the ' INDRIYAS' as tools, ( The sensory > > organs ) then, one uses the eyes to its fullest - which means that > > the job of the eyes is only to report - see and report - but, we > > then remember that all the further decisions are made by the atma > or > > the self which is the life - and if this self is manifested with > > desires - it does not follow the righteous path, then the eyes are > > not to blame for reporting ! The BG is the best tool which teaches > > us how to use these indriyas to our betterment - not to > destruction > > with desires !! > > > > Prapati > > -------------------------------- - > > > > , " sadhak_insight " > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > > > -Shree Hari- > > > I would very much appreciate any comments or guidance on my > > thoughts > > > below regarding surrender, > > > I have listed some of the chapters plus a learned comment, that > > > formulated my thinking. > > > > > > > > > BG 2.7 > > > " Now I am confused about my duty and have lost all composure > > because > > > of miserly weakness. In this condition I am asking You to tell > me > > for > > > certain what is best for me. Now I am Your disciple, and a soul > > > surrendered unto You. Please instruct me. " > > > BG 3.3 > > > The Supreme Personality of Godhead said: O sinless Arjuna, I have > > > already explained that there are two classes of men who try to > > > realize > > > the self. Some are inclined to understand it by empirical, > > > philosophical speculation, and others by devotional service. > > > > > > A comment on 3.3 > > > The karmi and jnani are different in name only. Actually > persons > > > engaged in karma become pure hearted jnanis by the actions. And > the > > > jnanis become liberated by bhakti. This is meaning of all my > words. > > > > > > BG 3.7 > > > On the other hand, if a sincere person tries to control the > active > > > senses by the mind and begins karma-yoga [in Krishna > consciousness] > > > without attachment, he is by far superior. > > > > > > Surrender:- > > > > > > From my readings it appears that with jnana , ultimately the > > > aspirant, can hit a brick wall as it were, the mind finds a > place > > > it cannot proceed beyond. At that point to surrender to the > > Divine > > > Lord without reservation, to no longer think in pure logic of > the > > > Absolute Truth, and to follow faithfully the path that opens > > before > > > you with courage. Can open the eyes with wonder, as the Lord > shows > > > his presence in all that is revealed, how can a soul be anything > > but > > > bhakti, after such a moment of truth? > > > > > > With Respect and Divine Love, > > > > > > Mike > > > (Mike Keenor) > > > > > > ----------------------------- > > > > > > > > > GUIDELINES FOR POSTING A RESPONSE: > > > > > > 1. The group is focused on the Holy Gitaji, therefore, only > > > responses which further clarify the understanding of Gitaji, > will > > be > > > posted. > > > > > > 2. Making reference of Gitaji shloka is highly encouraged - at > > least > > > once in the response. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or > > > other scriptures to substantiate your response. > > > > > > 3. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting > > > sadhaka's time. Under no circustance the answer should exceed > say > > > one page at the most (500 words or so). > > > > > > 4. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the > > > extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas > > > > > > 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only. > > > > > > 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other > > > organizations. > > > > > > 7. Complete reproduction of texts from any book is strongly > > > discouraged, however references may be made of the book or > author > > > (but not links to other sites). > > > > > > 8. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone > > > number, address etc. > > > > > > 9. Please do not address the response to a particular individual > > > since the message is going to the entire group. > > > > > > 10. Due to the large readership, only those responses will be > > posted > > > which are in line with the general philosophy of taking Shrimad > > > Bhagavad Gita as the reference. > > > > > > 11. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if > > content > > > is unclear for distribution or not directly related to the > > question > > > being asked. > > > > > > 12. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth, > > > westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use of only > > > Sanskrit words, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit > > > bracketed wherever possible. > > > > > > MODERATOR > > > Ram Ram > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 9, 2008 Report Share Posted July 9, 2008 What is " surrendering " ? Samarpana – Bhakti – God No one can " surrender " to God. If something receives your surrenderance, then it is NOT God. Surrendering involves two distinct parties – one superior and the other inferior, both being limited owing to their mutually exclusive distinction from each other. One who surrenders is not a Bhakta and one who is surrendered to is not God either. One who surrenders is at worst a slave and one who receives a surrenderer is at best a king. Note that both a slave and a king are nothing but slaves – individuals with no freedom. Note that all the distinctions are arased between a Bhakta and God. The very meaning of Bhakti is the mitigation of all alienation of a person with ereference to God. The Bhakta is as liberated as The God as such due to the lack of all alienating notions between the two. Therefore, the very term " surrender " is a fallacy in spiritual practice because the word has the popular cannotation of " giving away something " or " sacrificing something " as if by force or by no other choice. The sanskrit term " Samarpana " is often referred to as " to surrender " since that is probably the best english word available. " Arpana " means denying ownership of something; " samarpana " is denying the very ownership in all respects – in actions, in thoughts as well as in desires. The very denial is the only route to mitigate the differences between subject and object, objects and objects, and God and objects. All the distinctions between God, subject and objects are rooted in the perceived notion of ownership as such. Observing the illusive and evasive nature of one's ego to hang on to one or the other ownership, understanding the mythical unreality in all such notions, and realizing that all our miseries are in fact rooted in such notions as such is the sound process of purging all the notions of ownership within to liberate oneself to merge with the Universal Reality with no constraints or conditions of any kind. Therefore, " samarpana " is the path of devotion to reach the Absolute Freedom. There is nothing given up in samarpana. There is nothing transacted in samarpana. There is nothing attained in samarpana. Not seeking to give up, transact and attain is called Bhakti. If surrendering is understood synanymous with samarpana, the very act is the only Knowledge. Anything else is just information. The Bhakti (Samarpana) is the very Karma (The Act). The Karma is the very Gnyana (The Knowledge). Thinking that the mind is the the domain of knowledge is a huge misnomer. Understanding that the mind is part of knowledge and knowledge is not part of mind is the true knowledge. That is the true surrender (samarpana) from mind's perspective. A Samarpita Manas (truly surrendered mind) is The God as such where the notion of surrendering never raises again. A samarpita manas cannot face any kind of " brick walls " – removing all such obstacles is the role of logic (informational analysis – Sankhya); NOT to create one! I would not agree that if somebody believes to be in Bhakti when one cannot think further as Para Bhakti. Para Bhakti incorporates proactive understanding (karma- purita-gnyana) and realized acitivities (Gnyana-purita-karma). The verses quoted by Mr. Keenor often tend to project variant notions regarding Karma, Gnyana and Bhakti – but, only in their isolated context. As I understand, Bhagavad Gita cannot create any such isolation. Everything is THAT alone in all respects though they may appear as variant within one's perception. Breaking the barriers of such perceptional isolation within one's mind is the role of the logical observation (Sankhya). Sankhya cannot bring Gnyana – logic in any form cannot bring Knowledge. Sankhya becomes Gnyana in its purity. So does the Karma. So does the Bhakti. Tasyai tapo damah karmeti pratishtha – the Shraddha incorporating focussed knowledge, controled desire and guided action is the foundation for Samarpana. Vedah sarvangani – all the sources of perception (understanding all perceptions to be as such without any trace of ownership) is the domain of Samarpana. Satyamayatanam – to be The Truth, The Absolute, The Peace, The Bliss … to be ONE is THE SAMARPANA. Therefore, I canot agree that TRUE SURRENDER (THE SAMARPANA) can raise out of an incapable mind. It is the state of a very capable mind. Respects. Naga Narayana. -------------------------------- Re Sadhak Hannah's views I am indeed touched by the fact that inspite of the very serious limitation of the translations of the verses adopted by you, some of the conclusions arrived at by you were exceptionally accurate. You may indeed call that grace of God and power and glory of Gita and of your devotion to God. . However let me tell you that had you had at your disposal English Edition of Saadhak Sanjeevani written by Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj , the entire interpretations of the verses would have taken a divine shape. For example what you called as " regulative principles of Bhakti Yoga " is in fact " constant practice of (chanting etc) divine name with equanimity having God as the aim " in 12:9 ! 12:10 would have read - " If you are unable to practice as above , be thou intent on performing ordained actions for Me , thus doing self less actions for my sake, thou shalt achieve perfection " The knowledge referred in Ch 12:12 is not Jnana Yoga in entirety. Here knowledge means mainly reading of scriptures, having interest in what is body, nature,self etc only and merely knowing ( not realising or experiencing completely) that you are separate from your body etc- in other words in very limited sense only ( as there is no yoga -equanimity attached with that). Here in 12:12 " practice " referred is mere practice not " practice with equanimity having God as aim " referred in 12:9 !! Similarly there is a difference between " practice with Equanimity (abhyaas yogen)with keeping God as aim " referred in 12:9 and mere " practice " referred in 12:10 (abhyaasepyasamartho) etc etc. Similarly 12:12 does not entirely refer Karma Yoga but only one portion of that viz renunciation of fruits Karma Yoga is not wholly and exclusively renunciation of fruits only!. Here actually " renunciation " (tyaag) is more glorified than " renunciation with equanimity " . Thus, Here in 12:12 an eternal principle gets revealed - " every renunciation results in instant peace " - " tyagatchhantimanantaram " Now this principle is applicable in every department of life, everywhere universally! Differences are subtle but when you practice or implement or try to grasp they become extremely relevant and almost touch your soul. After all these verses are the voice of God ! ! Gita is a mirror, as is your attitude so does it look ! ! Hence I agree with you that there is a need of a perfect translation of these verses. They make sea of a difference.Here there is importance of writer! Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B Hare Krishna Re Sadhak Mike " s Query As mentioned in the verses below, there are two kinds of devotional service: the way of regulative principles and the way of full attachment in love to the Supreme Personality of Godhead. For those who are actually not able to follow the principles of Krishna consciousness it is better to cultivate knowledge, because by knowledge one can be able to understand his real position. Gradually knowledge will develop to the point of meditation. By meditation one can be able to understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead by a gradual process. There are processes which make one understand that one himself is the Supreme, and that sort of meditation is preferred if one is unable to engage in devotional service. If one is not able to meditate in such a way, then there are prescribed duties, as enjoined in the Vedic literature, for the Brahmanas, Ksatriyas, Vaisyas and Sudras, which we shall find in the last chapter of Bhagavad-Gita. But in all cases, one should give up the result or fruits of labor; this means to employ the result of karma for some good cause. In summary, to reach the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the highest goal, there are two processes: one process is by gradual development, and the other process is direct. Devotional service in Krishna consciousness is the direct method, and the other method involves renouncing the fruits of one's activities. Then one can come to the stage of knowledge, then to the stage of meditation, then to the stage of understanding the Supersoul, and then to the stage of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. One may take either the step-by-step process or the direct path. The direct process is not possible for everyone; therefore the indirect process is also good. It is, however, to be understood that the indirect process is not recommended for Arjuna, because he is already at the stage of loving devotional service to the Supreme Lord. It is for others, who are not at this stage; for them the gradual process of renunciation, knowledge, meditation and realization of the Supersoul and Brahman should be followed. But as far as Bhagavad-Gita is concerned, it is the direct method that is stressed. Everyone is advised to take to the direct method and surrender unto the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krishna Your Servant Janardhana Dasa - Dear friends Vyas ji has ideas on Karma and Zyan and Bhakti and Yoga. In the Bhagwat Gita, these are soul of understanding. I will try to explain it in the following way: Take example of person(s) going from Delhi to Mumbai. In this journey of self realization, everyone is in an act of loneliness, birth and death in cycles after cycles, and wants to realize truth about him/herself. And when this destination is fixed, YOGA starts. YOGA is placing one on a path of self realization. When an individual starts journey in search of truth, he does it by his/her natural instinct whatever it is. This knowledge of the swabhaav is called ZYAN. Because this ZYAN is directed to (YOGA) the path of self realization, it is called ZYAN YOGA. Has this ZYAN been is not in a direction of self realization, that would be VISHAYA. By knowing the swbhaav, when individual works this is called KARMA. At every new milestone, the swbhaav gets more pure, and this is called KARMA YOGA. But when individual does not know his/her swbhaav and works not in the direction of self realization, this is VYAVSAYA (from Vishaya). When an individual is working all alone and reaches a stage of self realization, this is ZYAN YOGA and KARMA YOGA. In Buddhist tradition, this way is called HINAYAN (small vehicle). It has advantage because an individual follows TAPAH (endurance), and learns by mistakes, and quite clear in mind. In earlier periods, all Yogis used to stay alone and meditate in forests. Krishna is Himself this example. In case when an individual finds another soul, and joined with it, this togetherness is called BHAKTI. And when the people in group work and knowing right way, this is called BHAKTI YOGA. Buddhist called it MAHA YAN (large vehicle). In this case, if Bhakti is with right Guru, the individual keeps following and reaches destination. This is BHAKTI YOGA and KARMA YOGA. The ZYAN YOGA is there but not relevant because the right path of GURU is enough. SoorDas and TulsiDas are example of saints who never lived in forests and never fought war like Arjun, and they by their mind only followed Ram and Krishna. Zyan is there but not has any effect. It is like milistones (Kota, Baroda) falling on the way from Delhi to Mumbai, and the passenger like TulsiDas never get it noticed. Arjun is the one who is together with Krishna (BHAKTI YOGA). He got explanation of every stage in the journey of self realization or self transformation to truth (ZYAN YOGA), and had to fight a war like living in dangerous forest (tapah, endurance) and staying at course is KARMA YOGA. All three. Buddha says same thing in other words Buddham Sharam Gachhami = " Go " to Truth (Karma YOGA) Dhamman sharnam Gachhami'= by following your " self nature " (Zyan YOGA) Sangham sharnam Gachhami = go " together " (Bhakti YOGA) Best regards K G (Krishna Gopal) ----------------------------- -Shree Hari- Clarification: The comment on BG 3.3 was not mine but was on the Bhagavad Gita I was reading on line. Thus of course this does not change the wisdom of the comments posted. Surrender comment was based on personal experience, (and that of the man I met in strange circumstances). We both had one thing in common and that was to find the truth, (spiritual truth, not necessarily God focussed). I can only speak from my heart, (he has his own journey). But one reached a point where every perception one had fell away. A state of absolute bewilderment. Of course I know now that the brick wall was my own ignorance. But I did then realize that I needed Divine help. The early Chapters that I have read seem to be around these thoughts of mine. I have also learned that character change does happen. One does help others without wanting for reward, in fact being at one with those that suffer. And of course always the intellect, but not so blinded by the ego, knowing ultimately there is GOD. This seems to fit in general with the comments, have read. I know there is much for me to learn. With respects and Divine Love. Mike Keenor -- , " sadhak_insight " <sadhak_insight wrote: > > Hari Om > > Re Sadhak Mike " s Query > > Let us now talk about surrender. Your 2nd learned comment is indeed > soul touching and is almost perfect. However as stated in previous > episode the Bhakti Yoga is independent and therefore the surrender > doesnot begin when the limitation of mind is realised. It is a > principle that mind and intellect cannot reach God because both are > part of Nature (Prakrati) and God is beyond the Nature. However > you can always change the focus ( direction) of mind and intellect > from the world to the God. That in itself is more than sufficient. > > Bhakti Yoga begins with the outlook - " I am of the God and only God > is mine, and nobody else is mine " and attains perfection when you > start seeing/ experiencing presence of God everywhere. Read > carefully the process differences given by me in the previous > edition. There are dozens or more such differences but due to space > constraints I have given briefly. They are really important from > spiritual practice point of view. > > From your second comment it has been revealed to me that you have > set the goal for yourself to feel the presence of God everywhere. > Believe me that goal is perfect- It is ultimate and real Bhakti Yoga- > let me tell you. " VASUDEVAH SARVAM " – All this is God (Gita 7:19) > is the final conclusion of Gita and the surrender is the ultimate > weapon which an aspirant has in his spiritual journey- there is no > doubt on these two. In fact Gita begins with surrender ( BG 2:7 > quoted by you too) and ends with surrender (18:66). > > God starts conversation talking about " WORRYING " to Arjuna ( 2:11) > and ends his conversation telling Arjuna not to worry( 18:66). I > would suggest you read " Saadhak Sanjeevani " a Treatise on Gita by > Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj, the English Edition of which is also > there. That will solve translation confusions of the verses forever > for you and it is so vast, comprehensive and clear that merely by > reading you may change your perceptions and it shall enthuse you in > your journey in a miraculous manner. If I get address I may ensure > you get latest copy of the same by post. In my eyes it is an > essential commentary and the ULTIMATE ON GITA. No other detailed > commentary has the depth of cross reference and can even be a > semblance of it- it is my experience. It is the best on the subject, > written by a God realised soul exclusively to help aspirants only. > > Hope I have been able to provide clarity. Everything which I write > is from the books and discourses of Swamiji only. Only the > translation or presentation is mine. Pls do write if you need more > clarification . > > Jai Shree Krishna > > Vyas N B > - > , " sadhak_insight " > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > Hari Hari! > > In considering this current conversation, I looked to chapter > twelve > > of the Gita, entitled " Devotional Service " . Please forgive my > > quoting of several verses: > > > > 12.6-7 But those who worship Me, giving up all their activities > > unto Me and being devoted to Me without deviation, engaged in > > devotional service and always meditating upon Me, having fixed > their > > minds upon Me, O son of Pritha for them I am the swift deliverer > > from the ocean of birth and death. > > > > BG 12.8: Just fix your mind upon Me, the Supreme Personality of > > Godhead, and engage all your intelligence in Me. Thus you will > live > > in Me always, without a doubt. > > > > BG 12.9: My dear Arjuna, O winner of wealth, if you cannot fix > your > > mind upon Me without deviation, then follow the regulative > > principles of bhakti-yoga. In this way develop a desire to attain > Me. > > > > BG 12.10: If you cannot practice the regulations of bhakti-yoga, > > then just try to work for Me, because by working for Me you will > > come to the perfect stage. > > > > BG 12.11: If, however, you are unable to work in this > consciousness > > of Me, then try to act giving up all results of your work and try > to > > be self-situated. > > > > BG 12.12: If you cannot take to this practice, then engage > yourself > > in the cultivation of knowledge. Better than knowledge, however, > is > > meditation, and better than meditation is renunciation of the > fruits > > of action, for by such renunciation one can attain peace of mind. > > > > Here, Krishna outlines the options available to us, and encourages > > them to pursue them to the best of our ability. He says that > > cultivation of knolwedge (JYoga) and renunciation of the fruits > of > > action (KYoga) are both beneficial on the path towards liberation > > because they help us develop a " desire to attain " God. We can use > > our intelliegence to understand the philosophy of God, and we > > can use our ability to renounce to practice controlling our mind. > > Bhakti yoga provides principles to practice loving service to God. > > We can see in 12.6-7 that the goal of all of this is to be 100% > > fixed in a relationship of devotional service with the Supreme > Lord. > > It is at this point that God provides liberation to those who are > > devoted to him. > > > > One final note, is that we are perhaps working from different > > translations. I am of the opinion that each person should study > the > > authors of the translations, and the quality of different > > translations, and find the one that is most in line with their own > > purposes. The differences arise from the difference between > > English and Sanskrit: there are words in Sanskrit that have many > > meanings, and these meanings are dependant upon grammar, spelling, > > and context. Translation into English is not always > straightforward, > > and frequently depends upon the background and purpose of the > > translator. You'll find, for example, a very different translation > > of the Gita used for learning Sanskrit in American universities. > > > > your servant, > > H. Sandal > > (Hannah Sandal) > > -------------------------- > > Dear Sadhakas, Namaste! > > > > The essence of the verses mentioned by Mike Keenor has been > captured > > in his own words. > > > > I would like to suggest, however, that we don't need to consider > any > > one path being superior to other paths toward Self-God > Realization. > > If Self-God realization were to mean freedom from sorrows and to > > live in unconditional Love serving all, it is all the more > important > > to see all paths being equal even if they differ in their > > approaches. If the ultimate results are the same, there is no need > > to compare any paths as being superior or inferior. Krishnaji may > > have said only to emphasize that all can attain such freedom even > if > > they are not prone to one or the other paths. > > > > We need to see that God is not separate from such a Gyani, or > Karma- > > Yogi or Devotee! Gita says God is Devotion in Bhakta, Truth- Being- > > Self in Gyani and self-less actions in Karm-Yogi. Ultimately that > is > > what happens to Bhakta(Devotee), Karma-Yogi(person of selfless > > action), and Gyani(Self-realized). > > > > Some of us are naturally inclined to do Karmas! To make their > Karmas > > not binding and yet serve those who are in need, Gita prescribes > the > > Karma-Yoga meaning self-less actions. > > > > By performing actions without assuming doership, guided by > > righteousness, frees one from Bondage due to karmas. Unless one > has > > total devotion while performing actions and total surrender of > > results to God, one just cannot do such self-less actions. Thus > > Karma-Yogi is also doing Bhakti, leading to freedom(moksha) from > > sorrows. He will eventually realize his true nature being Sat- Chit- > > Ananda(Supreme Consciousness, not an individual). > > > > In the same way one who is given to inquiry, is a Truth Seeker. > > He/She will in time become Truth Lover by seeking nothing but > Truth. > > Upon experiencing glimpses of truth in daily life, the devotion to > > Truth becomes intense. So again such a truth lover is also devotee- > > bhakta of Truth, same as God and then attains knowledge of who > > he/she is in reality and thus perfection! > > > > In my experience, one just doesn't follow only one path, rather > one > > integrates all such paths and God given resoureces! As we all > know, > > no one can remain without actions, and all of us have quality of > > devotion at least in something we do! > > > > In the times we are living at present, it is more appropriate to > > perform Karmas with the best of one's ability to serve humanity, > > assuming no-doership thereof and to accept or rather welcome > results > > of such actions. This will automatically leads one to wonder and > > inquire about the nature of God, world, and oneself. Upon > > contemplation of all three, one will realize the truth of them and > > eventually get established in True Self. Out of such knowledge one > > becomes a mystic, so to speak, and his/her existence is aligned > with > > Totality or wholeness of Being in which individuality is absorbed. > > God is just the name to such Experience of Being everything, which > > is Absolute Existence and thus Ananda. > > > > Namaskars...Pratap > > (Pratap Bhatt) > > > > -------------------------------- -- > > > > > > , " sadhak_insight " > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > > > Hari Om > > > > > > You have sought comments on certain verses of Gita dealing with > > > Jnana Yoga (JY) , Karma Yoga (KY) and Bhakti Yoga (BY) and on > two > > > learned comments, that formulated your thinking. I shall briefly > > > take you through the best on the subject to impart total > clarity. > > > The answer shall be in minimum two installments of one page > each, > > > maximum three. > > > > > > First Bhagavad Gita 3:3. The correct translation of the verse is > > as > > > under - " O Sinless Arjuna, in this world a two fold path has > > been > > > enunciated by Me before, the Path of Knowledge (Jnana Yoga or > > > Sankhya Yoga) for men of renunciation and the Path of Action > for > > > men of action (Karma Yoga) " . > > > > > > The correct translation of BG 3:7 is - " But he who controls his > > > senses through the mind, O Arjuna, and engages himself in the > path > > > of action, with the organs of action and sense, without being > > > attached, is superior. " > > > > > > Your comment that - " The karmi and jnani are different in name > > only. > > > Actually, persons engaged in karma become pure hearted jnanis by > > > their actions. And the jnanis become liberated by bhakti. " - > can > > > not be said to be entirely correct. Because it pre suposses that > > the > > > outcome or the end result of these exercises is " purity of > heart " > > > while actually the end result of both of them is " liberation " . > > > Further the comment that they are different names only is right > > from > > > only end result perspective and certainly not from the process > > > followed by them and by the attitude of a Jnana Yogi and a Karma > > > Yogi. (Refer last para of this edition). Secondly this comment > > > presumes that Bhakti is necessary for liberation, but actually > > > Bhakti gets you ever increasing love of God in addition to > > > liberation. Your translation also of the verse does not bring > out > > > Karma Yoga clearly and gets rather tilted towards bhakti when > you > > > refer devotional service. Here are some good revelations. > > > > > > In this verse the term " loke " stands for " in this world " . Here > > only > > > two yogas (paths) have been described, not three. Bhakti Yoga > is > > > absent here. Reason is that while Jnana Yoga and Karma Yoga > > > are " laukik " (worldly – beliefs/paths to be practiced in > relation > > to > > > the world and worldly things), the Bhakti Yoga is " alaukik " > > > (beyond this world - divine, special path, a belief/path to be > > > practiced in relation to God). Refer also discussion below > dealing > > > with perishable/imperishable - both of which elements are > worldly > > > only. > > > > > > The term " nishtha " stands for Equanimity, which can be either > > > attained through the path of knowledge or through path of > action. > > > (There is very little need of equanimity in fact in Bhakti > Yoga) – > > > Refer distinction made by God in Gita 2:39. > > > > > > Corresponding to these two paths there are two types of purushas > > > (men) – Gita 15:16 – one Akshar (Immortal self) and two " Kshar " > > > (mortal world). To remain equanimous in success or failure, or > > > profits or losses (dualities) etc. of the perishable is Karma > > Yoga, > > > while having disinclination for the perishable and being > > established > > > in imperishable (self) is Sankhya or Jnana Yoga. But above these > > two > > > there is the Supreme Person who is beyond the perishable, and > is > > > superior to the imperishable, called as Paramatma (God) in the > > > scriptures and Veda (Gita 15:18). Thus a whole hearted surrender > > to > > > God, is called Discipline of Devotion (Bhakti Yoga). In Karma > Yoga > > > there is predominance of perishable, in Sankhya Yoga there is > > > predominance of imperishable and in Bhakti Yoga there is > > > predominance of God. > > > > > > The state of " nishtha " (Equanimity) can be attained by strivers, > > > either through knowledge or through Action, but identification > > with > > > the God, is not their own (nishtha). In Sankhya state, strivers > > > experience distinctly, the existence of their own selves, as > well > > > as, that of the world and try to cut asunder the affinity for > the > > > world. A Karma Yogi offers to the world, everything (including > > even > > > his body), that he has derived from it and removes affinity > from > > > the world. In this way both of them get established in their > true > > > form – the self. > > > > > > Neither think others as evil doers, nor wish evil to others nor > do > > > evil to others- with this outlook " Karma Yoga " begins. Nothing > is > > > mine, I need nothing and I have to do nothing for myself – by > > > accepting this truth " Jnana (Sankhya) Yoga " begins. > > > > > > The beauty is that in both the paths of JY and KY there is no > need > > > of even thinking about/ focusing/ accepting the existence of God > > at > > > all. Both JYs and KYs get liberated easily without even > imagining > > > about God. It is only in BY that God comes into picture right > from > > > beginning. In both JY and KY the God is optional not at all > > > compulsory even upto the final stage. > > > > > > You, Mike has presumed an order of KY first, then JY and then BY > > as > > > the last. Gita does not to that view. In Gita it is > JY, > > > then KY (superior to JY) and then BY (best ). However all three > > are > > > Independent ways of liberation. If you are determined then you > > need > > > not take another or additional route to continue your journey, > > > unless when you want love of God also. All three get you > > > liberation. > > > > > > The aforesaid orders therefore are from comfort point of view > only. > > > > > > Now coming to how they are different from process point of view. > > In > > > JY you use your power of " knowing " , in KY your power of " doing " > > and > > > in BY your power of belief/acceptance. In JY your conscience is > > the > > > guiding force, in KY it is action and in BY it is emotions of > > > faith/belief. In JY you depend upon self, in KY upon duty and in > > BY > > > upon God. In JY you renounce ego, in KY " desires " and in BY the > > > mineness with the world. In JY you eliminate ego, in KY you > > > modify/purify ego and in BY you change your ego. In JY you > become > > > equal to God, in KY near to God and in BY indivisible with God. > A > > JY > > > is useful to himself, a KY is useful to the world and a BY to > the > > > God. In JY your desire to " know something " is extinguished, in > > > KY " to do something " and in BY to get something. In JY you > > renounce > > > the doership first, in KY you renounce the " enjoyership " and in > BY > > > you renounce the " mineness " with the worldly people. In JY you > get > > > pleased by self, in KY by seeing others happy, in BY by making > God > > > happy.In JY you don't do anything, in KY you do for others only > > and > > > in BY you do for God. In JY you surrender the things to Nature, > in > > > KY to the world and in BY to the God.In JY obstacle is your ego > > and > > > body, in KY obstacle is your attachment with worldly pleasures > and > > > in BY the obstacle is remaining away from God. In JY your karmas > > get > > > burnt, in KY they become " akarmas " (fruitless) and in BY they > > > become " divya " ( divine). In JY you don't desire anything from > > > anyone, in KY you fulfil desires of others and in BY you merge > > your > > > desires into the desire of God. In JY you don't consider anyone > to > > > be " mine " , in KY all in the world are yours but for selfless > > > service only, and in BY only God is yours. > > > > > > Balance in next edition. > > > > > > Jai Shree Krishna > > > > > > Vyas N B > > > ------------------------------ -- > -- > > > It is very interesting to read your teachings ! I personally > feel > > > that if one can use the ' INDRIYAS' as tools, ( The sensory > > > organs ) then, one uses the eyes to its fullest - which means > that > > > the job of the eyes is only to report - see and report - but, we > > > then remember that all the further decisions are made by the > atma > > or > > > the self which is the life - and if this self is manifested with > > > desires - it does not follow the righteous path, then the eyes > are > > > not to blame for reporting ! The BG is the best tool which > teaches > > > us how to use these indriyas to our betterment - not to > > destruction > > > with desires !! > > > > > > Prapati > > > ------------------------------ -- > - > > > > > > , " sadhak_insight " > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > > > > > -Shree Hari- > > > > I would very much appreciate any comments or guidance on my > > > thoughts > > > > below regarding surrender, > > > > I have listed some of the chapters plus a learned comment, that > > > > formulated my thinking. > > > > > > > > > > > > BG 2.7 > > > > " Now I am confused about my duty and have lost all composure > > > because > > > > of miserly weakness. In this condition I am asking You to tell > > me > > > for > > > > certain what is best for me. Now I am Your disciple, and a soul > > > > surrendered unto You. Please instruct me. " > > > > BG 3.3 > > > > The Supreme Personality of Godhead said: O sinless Arjuna, I > have > > > > already explained that there are two classes of men who try to > > > > realize > > > > the self. Some are inclined to understand it by empirical, > > > > philosophical speculation, and others by devotional service. > > > > > > > > A comment on 3.3 > > > > The karmi and jnani are different in name only. Actually > > persons > > > > engaged in karma become pure hearted jnanis by the actions. > And > > the > > > > jnanis become liberated by bhakti. This is meaning of all my > > words. > > > > > > > > BG 3.7 > > > > On the other hand, if a sincere person tries to control the > > active > > > > senses by the mind and begins karma-yoga [in Krishna > > consciousness] > > > > without attachment, he is by far superior. > > > > > > > > Surrender:- > > > > > > > > From my readings it appears that with jnana , ultimately the > > > > aspirant, can hit a brick wall as it were, the mind finds a > > place > > > > it cannot proceed beyond. At that point to surrender to the > > > Divine > > > > Lord without reservation, to no longer think in pure logic of > > the > > > > Absolute Truth, and to follow faithfully the path that opens > > > before > > > > you with courage. Can open the eyes with wonder, as the Lord > > shows > > > > his presence in all that is revealed, how can a soul be > anything > > > but > > > > bhakti, after such a moment of truth? > > > > > > > > With Respect and Divine Love, > > > > > > > > Mike > > > > (Mike Keenor) > > > > > > > > ---------------------------- - > > > > > > > > > > > > GUIDELINES FOR POSTING A RESPONSE: > > > > > > > > 1. The group is focused on the Holy Gitaji, therefore, only > > > > responses which further clarify the understanding of Gitaji, > > will > > > be > > > > posted. > > > > > > > > 2. Making reference of Gitaji shloka is highly encouraged - at > > > least > > > > once in the response. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji > or > > > > other scriptures to substantiate your response. > > > > > > > > 3. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, > respecting > > > > sadhaka's time. Under no circustance the answer should exceed > > say > > > > one page at the most (500 words or so). > > > > > > > > 4. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to > the > > > > extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas > > > > > > > > 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only. > > > > > > > > 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other > > > > organizations. > > > > > > > > 7. Complete reproduction of texts from any book is strongly > > > > discouraged, however references may be made of the book or > > author > > > > (but not links to other sites). > > > > > > > > 8. Kindly do not include your personal information such as > phone > > > > number, address etc. > > > > > > > > 9. Please do not address the response to a particular > individual > > > > since the message is going to the entire group. > > > > > > > > 10. Due to the large readership, only those responses will be > > > posted > > > > which are in line with the general philosophy of taking > Shrimad > > > > Bhagavad Gita as the reference. > > > > > > > > 11. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if > > > content > > > > is unclear for distribution or not directly related to the > > > question > > > > being asked. > > > > > > > > 12. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, > youth, > > > > westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use of > only > > > > Sanskrit words, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit > > > > bracketed wherever possible. > > > > > > > > MODERATOR > > > > Ram Ram > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 9, 2008 Report Share Posted July 9, 2008 Hari Om Oh! How nice it is to sit together and deliberate! Devotion , the name God has infinite ways to gladden soul. Consider clarification of Mike. What he " experienced " was right. Whatever he read was debated. This is to be noted. Soul knows no barriers. Conscience is always perfect. Your direct experience is infinite times better than learning! Gita touches your soul. You are right Mike, the beginning of spiritual journey does not always involve God being in focus. You search for the truth and suddenly you get changed - character, habits, attitude, every thing changes for better. The same world, the same worldly people start looking different. Your focus shifts towards looking goodness in others and suddenly you realise there are people who help without expecting results. They were there in the past also, Sure. But with change in us they are seen with clarity. One day, and that day is not far for any determined aspirant, will come when all around us will be revealed to us as God and God only! That revelation in fact is the goal of every human being! Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ------------------------------- Hari Hari! I have but two short points. 1. The issue of whether one can actually surrender to God, as Naga Narayana has put the issue, actually pivots around two very different conceptions of God and jivas. The spiritual teacher (Swami Ramsukdasji) whose disciples host this discussion, it is my understanding that he has apparently taught that individuality is an illusion of the material world, and upon liberation, we merge with the impersonal Supreme. I come from a line of teaching that considers individual identity to be eternal, and that each individual has an eternal relationship with the Supreme Personality of Godhead. With the second conception, the logic leading to the conclusion of surrender and Bhakti is apparent. Generally, I've found that those following first line of teaching consider the second to be incorrect, and vice versa. I don't really see a purpose in debating the point here; actually, I think everyone should pursue God in the way that they can believe in, and hopefully those of us who are farther can come nearer to God through devotion to our respective paths. 2. I mainly use a translation of the Bhagavad Gita that is well respected by religious studies departments and sanskrit scholars throughout the world, what to speak of Vaishnava religious authorities. The translator comes from an established line of teachers, and in his life he was an exemplary devotee: A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. It is readily available online with sanskrit, word-by-word translations. I have not referred to other's translations as possessing a " serious limitation, " but rather have accepted your respected teacher's translations because I know they are sacred to you. This is a very nice opportunity to learn about different conceptions of God, and to use important questions (like that of surrender) to delve deeper into our own philosophies. I hope it can be done respectfully, now that we are aware of our philosophical differences. I think there is still much held in common. Hare Krishna, Hannah Sandal ------------------------------ How about saying surrender to ALMIGHTY who controls OUR Natural Habitat including Environmemt and Human Evolution itself? Mohan K Muju ------------------------------- , " sadhak_insight " <sadhak_insight wrote: > > What is " surrendering " ? > > Samarpana – Bhakti – God > > No one can " surrender " to God. If something receives your > surrenderance, then it is NOT God. Surrendering involves two > distinct parties – one superior and the other inferior, both being > limited owing to their mutually exclusive distinction from each > other. One who surrenders is not a Bhakta and one who is surrendered > to is not God either. One who surrenders is at worst a slave and one > who receives a surrenderer is at best a king. Note that both a slave > and a king are nothing but slaves – individuals with no freedom. > Note that all the distinctions are arased between a Bhakta and God. > The very meaning of Bhakti is the mitigation of all alienation of a > person with ereference to God. The Bhakta is as liberated as The God > as such due to the lack of all alienating notions between the two. > Therefore, the very term " surrender " is a fallacy in spiritual > practice because the word has the popular cannotation of " giving > away something " or " sacrificing something " as if by force or by no > other choice. > > The sanskrit term " Samarpana " is often referred to as " to surrender " > since that is probably the best english word available. " Arpana " > means denying ownership of something; " samarpana " is denying the > very ownership in all respects – in actions, in thoughts as well as > in desires. The very denial is the only route to mitigate the > differences between subject and object, objects and objects, and God > and objects. All the distinctions between God, subject and objects > are rooted in the perceived notion of ownership as such. Observing > the illusive and evasive nature of one's ego to hang on to one or > the other ownership, understanding the mythical unreality in all > such notions, and realizing that all our miseries are in fact rooted > in such notions as such is the sound process of purging all the > notions of ownership within to liberate oneself to merge with the > Universal Reality with no constraints or conditions of any kind. > Therefore, " samarpana " is the path of devotion to reach the Absolute > Freedom. There is nothing given up in samarpana. There is nothing > transacted in samarpana. There is nothing attained in samarpana. Not > seeking to give up, transact and attain is called Bhakti. > > If surrendering is understood synanymous with samarpana, the very > act is the only Knowledge. Anything else is just information. The > Bhakti (Samarpana) is the very Karma (The Act). The Karma is the > very Gnyana (The Knowledge). Thinking that the mind is the the > domain of knowledge is a huge misnomer. Understanding that the mind > is part of knowledge and knowledge is not part of mind is the true > knowledge. That is the true surrender (samarpana) from mind's > perspective. A Samarpita Manas (truly surrendered mind) is The God > as such where the notion of surrendering never raises again. A > samarpita manas cannot face any kind of " brick walls " – removing all > such obstacles is the role of logic (informational analysis – > Sankhya); NOT to create one! I would not agree that if somebody > believes to be in Bhakti when one cannot think further as Para > Bhakti. Para Bhakti incorporates proactive understanding (karma- > purita-gnyana) and realized acitivities (Gnyana-purita-karma). The > verses quoted by Mr. Keenor often tend to project variant notions > regarding Karma, Gnyana and Bhakti – but, only in their isolated > context. As I understand, Bhagavad Gita cannot create any such > isolation. Everything is THAT alone in all respects though they may > appear as variant within one's perception. Breaking the barriers of > such perceptional isolation within one's mind is the role of the > logical observation (Sankhya). Sankhya cannot bring Gnyana – logic > in any form cannot bring Knowledge. Sankhya becomes Gnyana in its > purity. So does the Karma. So does the Bhakti. > > Tasyai tapo damah karmeti pratishtha – the Shraddha incorporating > focussed knowledge, controled desire and guided action is the > foundation for Samarpana. > > Vedah sarvangani – all the sources of perception (understanding all > perceptions to be as such without any trace of ownership) is the > domain of Samarpana. > > Satyamayatanam – to be The Truth, The Absolute, The Peace, The Bliss > … to be ONE is THE SAMARPANA. > > Therefore, I canot agree that TRUE SURRENDER (THE SAMARPANA) can > raise out of an incapable mind. It is the state of a very capable > mind. > > Respects. > > Naga Narayana. > -------------------------------- > > Re Sadhak Hannah's views > > I am indeed touched by the fact that inspite of the very serious > limitation of the translations of the verses adopted by you, some of > the conclusions arrived at by you were exceptionally accurate. You > may indeed call that grace of God and power and glory of Gita and of > your devotion to God. . > > However let me tell you that had you had at your disposal English > Edition of Saadhak Sanjeevani written by Swamiji Ramsukhdasji > Maharaj , the entire interpretations of the verses would have taken > a divine shape. > > For example what you called as " regulative principles of Bhakti > Yoga " is in fact " constant practice of (chanting etc) divine name > with equanimity having God as the aim " in 12:9 ! > > 12:10 would have read - > > " If you are unable to practice as above , be thou intent on > performing ordained actions for Me , thus doing self less actions > for my sake, thou shalt achieve perfection " > > The knowledge referred in Ch 12:12 is not Jnana Yoga in entirety. > Here knowledge means mainly reading of scriptures, having interest > in what is body, nature,self etc only and merely knowing ( not > realising or experiencing completely) that you are separate from > your body etc- in other words in very limited sense only ( as there > is no yoga -equanimity attached with that). Here in 12:12 " practice " > referred is mere practice not " practice with equanimity having God > as aim " referred in 12:9 !! > > Similarly there is a difference between " practice with Equanimity > (abhyaas yogen)with keeping God as aim " referred in 12:9 and > mere " practice " referred in 12:10 (abhyaasepyasamartho) etc etc. > > > Similarly 12:12 does not entirely refer Karma Yoga but only one > portion of that viz renunciation of fruits Karma Yoga is not wholly > and exclusively renunciation of fruits only!. Here > actually " renunciation " (tyaag) is more glorified than " renunciation > with equanimity " . > > Thus, Here in 12:12 an eternal principle gets revealed - " every > renunciation results in instant peace " - > > " tyagatchhantimanantaram " > > Now this principle is applicable in every department of life, > everywhere universally! > > Differences are subtle but when you practice or implement or try to > grasp they become extremely relevant and almost touch your soul. > After all these verses are the voice of God ! ! Gita is a mirror, as > is your attitude so does it look ! ! > > Hence I agree with you that there is a need of a perfect translation > of these verses. They make sea of a difference.Here there is > importance of writer! > > Jai Shree Krishna > > Vyas N B > > > Hare Krishna > > Re Sadhak Mike " s Query > > As mentioned in the verses below, there are two kinds of devotional > service: the way of regulative principles and the way of full > attachment in love to the Supreme Personality of Godhead. For those > who are actually not able to follow the principles of Krishna > consciousness it is better to cultivate knowledge, because by > knowledge one can be able to understand his real position. Gradually > knowledge will develop to the point of meditation. By meditation one > can be able to understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead by a > gradual process. There are processes which make one understand that > one himself is the Supreme, and that sort of meditation is preferred > if one is unable to engage in devotional service. If one is not able > to meditate in such a way, then there are prescribed duties, as > enjoined in the Vedic literature, for the Brahmanas, Ksatriyas, > Vaisyas and Sudras, which we shall find in the last chapter of > Bhagavad-Gita. But in all cases, one should give up the result or > fruits of labor; this means to employ the result of karma for some > good cause. > > In summary, to reach the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the highest > goal, there are two processes: one process is by gradual > development, and the other process is direct. Devotional service in > Krishna consciousness is the direct method, and the other method > involves renouncing the fruits of one's activities. Then one can > come to the stage of knowledge, then to the stage of meditation, > then to the stage of understanding the Supersoul, and then to the > stage of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. One may take either the > step-by-step process or the direct path. The direct process is not > possible for everyone; therefore the indirect process is also good. > It is, however, to be understood that the indirect process is not > recommended for Arjuna, because he is already at the stage of loving > devotional service to the Supreme Lord. It is for others, who are > not at this stage; for them the gradual process of renunciation, > knowledge, meditation and realization of the Supersoul and Brahman > should be followed. But as far as Bhagavad-Gita is concerned, it is > the direct method that is stressed. Everyone is advised to take to > the direct method and surrender unto the Supreme Personality of > Godhead, Krishna > > Your Servant > > Janardhana Dasa > > - > > Dear friends > Vyas ji has ideas on Karma and Zyan and Bhakti and Yoga. In the > Bhagwat Gita, these are soul of understanding. I will try to explain > it in the following way: > > Take example of person(s) going from Delhi to Mumbai. In this > journey of self realization, everyone is in an act of loneliness, > birth and death in cycles after cycles, and wants to realize truth > about him/herself. And when this destination is fixed, YOGA starts. > YOGA is placing one on a path of self realization. > > When an individual starts journey in search of truth, he does it by > his/her natural instinct whatever it is. This knowledge of the > swabhaav is called ZYAN. Because this ZYAN is directed to (YOGA) the > path of self realization, it is called ZYAN YOGA. Has this ZYAN been > is not in a direction of self realization, that would be VISHAYA. > > By knowing the swbhaav, when individual works this is called KARMA. > At every new milestone, the swbhaav gets more pure, and this is > called KARMA YOGA. But when individual does not know his/her > swbhaav and works not in the direction of self realization, this is > VYAVSAYA (from Vishaya). > > When an individual is working all alone and reaches a stage of self > realization, this is ZYAN YOGA and KARMA YOGA. In Buddhist > tradition, this way is called HINAYAN (small vehicle). It has > advantage because an individual follows TAPAH (endurance), and > learns by mistakes, and quite clear in mind. In earlier periods, all > Yogis used to stay alone and meditate in forests. Krishna is Himself > this example. > > In case when an individual finds another soul, and joined with it, > this togetherness is called BHAKTI. And when the people in group > work and knowing right way, this is called BHAKTI YOGA. Buddhist > called it MAHA YAN (large vehicle). In this case, if Bhakti is with > right Guru, the individual keeps following and reaches destination. > This is BHAKTI YOGA and KARMA YOGA. The ZYAN YOGA is there but not > relevant because the right path of GURU is enough. SoorDas and > TulsiDas are example of saints who never lived in forests and never > fought war like Arjun, and they by their mind only followed Ram and > Krishna. Zyan is there but not has any effect. It is like milistones > (Kota, Baroda) falling on the way from Delhi to Mumbai, and the > passenger like TulsiDas never get it noticed. > > Arjun is the one who is together with Krishna (BHAKTI YOGA). He got > explanation of every stage in the journey of self realization or > self transformation to truth (ZYAN YOGA), and had to fight a war > like living in dangerous forest (tapah, endurance) and staying at > course is KARMA YOGA. All three. > > Buddha says same thing in other words > Buddham Sharam Gachhami = " Go " to Truth (Karma YOGA) > Dhamman sharnam Gachhami'= by following your " self nature " (Zyan > YOGA) > Sangham sharnam Gachhami = go " together " (Bhakti YOGA) > > > Best regards > K G > (Krishna Gopal) > ----------------------------- > > -Shree Hari- > > Clarification: > > The comment on BG 3.3 was not mine but was on the Bhagavad Gita I was > reading on line. Thus of course this does not change the wisdom of > the > comments posted. > Surrender comment was based on personal experience, (and that of > the man I met in strange circumstances). We both had one thing in > common and that was to find the truth, (spiritual truth, not > necessarily God focussed). > I can only speak from my heart, (he has his own journey). But one > reached a point where every perception one had fell away. A state of > absolute bewilderment. Of course I know now that the brick wall was > my > own ignorance. But I did then realize that I needed Divine help. > The early Chapters that I have read seem to be around these thoughts > of mine. > I have also learned that character change does happen. One does help > others without wanting for reward, in fact being at one with those > that suffer. And of course always the intellect, but not so blinded > by > the ego, knowing ultimately there is GOD. > This seems to fit in general with the comments, have read. > I know there is much for me to learn. > > With respects and Divine Love. > > Mike Keenor > > > > - - > , " sadhak_insight " > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > Hari Om > > > > Re Sadhak Mike " s Query > > > > Let us now talk about surrender. Your 2nd learned comment is > indeed > > soul touching and is almost perfect. However as stated in previous > > episode the Bhakti Yoga is independent and therefore the surrender > > doesnot begin when the limitation of mind is realised. It is a > > principle that mind and intellect cannot reach God because both > are > > part of Nature (Prakrati) and God is beyond the Nature. However > > you can always change the focus ( direction) of mind and intellect > > from the world to the God. That in itself is more than sufficient. > > > > Bhakti Yoga begins with the outlook - " I am of the God and only > God > > is mine, and nobody else is mine " and attains perfection when you > > start seeing/ experiencing presence of God everywhere. Read > > carefully the process differences given by me in the previous > > edition. There are dozens or more such differences but due to > space > > constraints I have given briefly. They are really important from > > spiritual practice point of view. > > > > From your second comment it has been revealed to me that you have > > set the goal for yourself to feel the presence of God everywhere. > > Believe me that goal is perfect- It is ultimate and real Bhakti > Yoga- > > let me tell you. " VASUDEVAH SARVAM " – All this is God (Gita > 7:19) > > is the final conclusion of Gita and the surrender is the ultimate > > weapon which an aspirant has in his spiritual journey- there is no > > doubt on these two. In fact Gita begins with surrender ( BG 2:7 > > quoted by you too) and ends with surrender (18:66). > > > > God starts conversation talking about " WORRYING " to Arjuna ( 2:11) > > and ends his conversation telling Arjuna not to worry( 18:66). I > > would suggest you read " Saadhak Sanjeevani " a Treatise on Gita by > > Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj, the English Edition of which is also > > there. That will solve translation confusions of the verses > forever > > for you and it is so vast, comprehensive and clear that merely by > > reading you may change your perceptions and it shall enthuse you > in > > your journey in a miraculous manner. If I get address I may ensure > > you get latest copy of the same by post. In my eyes it is an > > essential commentary and the ULTIMATE ON GITA. No other detailed > > commentary has the depth of cross reference and can even be a > > semblance of it- it is my experience. It is the best on the > subject, > > written by a God realised soul exclusively to help aspirants only. > > > > Hope I have been able to provide clarity. Everything which I write > > is from the books and discourses of Swamiji only. Only the > > translation or presentation is mine. Pls do write if you need > more > > clarification . > > > > Jai Shree Krishna > > > > Vyas N B > > -------------------------------- -- > > , " sadhak_insight " > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > > > Hari Hari! > > > In considering this current conversation, I looked to chapter > > twelve > > > of the Gita, entitled " Devotional Service " . Please forgive my > > > quoting of several verses: > > > > > > 12.6-7 But those who worship Me, giving up all their activities > > > unto Me and being devoted to Me without deviation, engaged in > > > devotional service and always meditating upon Me, having fixed > > their > > > minds upon Me, O son of Pritha for them I am the swift deliverer > > > from the ocean of birth and death. > > > > > > BG 12.8: Just fix your mind upon Me, the Supreme Personality of > > > Godhead, and engage all your intelligence in Me. Thus you will > > live > > > in Me always, without a doubt. > > > > > > BG 12.9: My dear Arjuna, O winner of wealth, if you cannot fix > > your > > > mind upon Me without deviation, then follow the regulative > > > principles of bhakti-yoga. In this way develop a desire to > attain > > Me. > > > > > > BG 12.10: If you cannot practice the regulations of bhakti- yoga, > > > then just try to work for Me, because by working for Me you will > > > come to the perfect stage. > > > > > > BG 12.11: If, however, you are unable to work in this > > consciousness > > > of Me, then try to act giving up all results of your work and > try > > to > > > be self-situated. > > > > > > BG 12.12: If you cannot take to this practice, then engage > > yourself > > > in the cultivation of knowledge. Better than knowledge, however, > > is > > > meditation, and better than meditation is renunciation of the > > fruits > > > of action, for by such renunciation one can attain peace of mind. > > > > > > Here, Krishna outlines the options available to us, and > encourages > > > them to pursue them to the best of our ability. He says that > > > cultivation of knolwedge (JYoga) and renunciation of the fruits > > of > > > action (KYoga) are both beneficial on the path towards > liberation > > > because they help us develop a " desire to attain " God. We can > use > > > our intelliegence to understand the philosophy of God, and we > > > can use our ability to renounce to practice controlling our > mind. > > > Bhakti yoga provides principles to practice loving service to > God. > > > We can see in 12.6-7 that the goal of all of this is to be 100% > > > fixed in a relationship of devotional service with the Supreme > > Lord. > > > It is at this point that God provides liberation to those who > are > > > devoted to him. > > > > > > One final note, is that we are perhaps working from different > > > translations. I am of the opinion that each person should study > > the > > > authors of the translations, and the quality of different > > > translations, and find the one that is most in line with their > own > > > purposes. The differences arise from the difference between > > > English and Sanskrit: there are words in Sanskrit that have many > > > meanings, and these meanings are dependant upon grammar, > spelling, > > > and context. Translation into English is not always > > straightforward, > > > and frequently depends upon the background and purpose of the > > > translator. You'll find, for example, a very different > translation > > > of the Gita used for learning Sanskrit in American universities. > > > > > > your servant, > > > H. Sandal > > > (Hannah Sandal) > > > -------------------------- > > > Dear Sadhakas, Namaste! > > > > > > The essence of the verses mentioned by Mike Keenor has been > > captured > > > in his own words. > > > > > > I would like to suggest, however, that we don't need to consider > > any > > > one path being superior to other paths toward Self-God > > Realization. > > > If Self-God realization were to mean freedom from sorrows and to > > > live in unconditional Love serving all, it is all the more > > important > > > to see all paths being equal even if they differ in their > > > approaches. If the ultimate results are the same, there is no > need > > > to compare any paths as being superior or inferior. Krishnaji > may > > > have said only to emphasize that all can attain such freedom > even > > if > > > they are not prone to one or the other paths. > > > > > > We need to see that God is not separate from such a Gyani, or > > Karma- > > > Yogi or Devotee! Gita says God is Devotion in Bhakta, Truth- > Being- > > > Self in Gyani and self-less actions in Karm-Yogi. Ultimately > that > > is > > > what happens to Bhakta(Devotee), Karma-Yogi(person of selfless > > > action), and Gyani(Self-realized). > > > > > > Some of us are naturally inclined to do Karmas! To make their > > Karmas > > > not binding and yet serve those who are in need, Gita prescribes > > the > > > Karma-Yoga meaning self-less actions. > > > > > > By performing actions without assuming doership, guided by > > > righteousness, frees one from Bondage due to karmas. Unless one > > has > > > total devotion while performing actions and total surrender of > > > results to God, one just cannot do such self-less actions. Thus > > > Karma-Yogi is also doing Bhakti, leading to freedom(moksha) from > > > sorrows. He will eventually realize his true nature being Sat- > Chit- > > > Ananda(Supreme Consciousness, not an individual). > > > > > > In the same way one who is given to inquiry, is a Truth Seeker. > > > He/She will in time become Truth Lover by seeking nothing but > > Truth. > > > Upon experiencing glimpses of truth in daily life, the devotion > to > > > Truth becomes intense. So again such a truth lover is also > devotee- > > > bhakta of Truth, same as God and then attains knowledge of who > > > he/she is in reality and thus perfection! > > > > > > In my experience, one just doesn't follow only one path, rather > > one > > > integrates all such paths and God given resoureces! As we all > > know, > > > no one can remain without actions, and all of us have quality of > > > devotion at least in something we do! > > > > > > In the times we are living at present, it is more appropriate to > > > perform Karmas with the best of one's ability to serve humanity, > > > assuming no-doership thereof and to accept or rather welcome > > results > > > of such actions. This will automatically leads one to wonder and > > > inquire about the nature of God, world, and oneself. Upon > > > contemplation of all three, one will realize the truth of them > and > > > eventually get established in True Self. Out of such knowledge > one > > > becomes a mystic, so to speak, and his/her existence is aligned > > with > > > Totality or wholeness of Being in which individuality is > absorbed. > > > God is just the name to such Experience of Being everything, > which > > > is Absolute Existence and thus Ananda. > > > > > > Namaskars...Pratap > > > (Pratap Bhatt) > > > > > > ------------------------------ -- > -- > > > > > > > > > , " sadhak_insight " > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Hari Om > > > > > > > > You have sought comments on certain verses of Gita dealing > with > > > > Jnana Yoga (JY) , Karma Yoga (KY) and Bhakti Yoga (BY) and on > > two > > > > learned comments, that formulated your thinking. I shall > briefly > > > > take you through the best on the subject to impart total > > clarity. > > > > The answer shall be in minimum two installments of one page > > each, > > > > maximum three. > > > > > > > > First Bhagavad Gita 3:3. The correct translation of the verse > is > > > as > > > > under - " O Sinless Arjuna, in this world a two fold path > has > > > been > > > > enunciated by Me before, the Path of Knowledge (Jnana Yoga or > > > > Sankhya Yoga) for men of renunciation and the Path of Action > > for > > > > men of action (Karma Yoga) " . > > > > > > > > The correct translation of BG 3:7 is - " But he who controls > his > > > > senses through the mind, O Arjuna, and engages himself in the > > path > > > > of action, with the organs of action and sense, without being > > > > attached, is superior. " > > > > > > > > Your comment that - " The karmi and jnani are different in name > > > only. > > > > Actually, persons engaged in karma become pure hearted jnanis > by > > > > their actions. And the jnanis become liberated by bhakti. " - > > can > > > > not be said to be entirely correct. Because it pre suposses > that > > > the > > > > outcome or the end result of these exercises is " purity of > > heart " > > > > while actually the end result of both of them is " liberation " . > > > > Further the comment that they are different names only is > right > > > from > > > > only end result perspective and certainly not from the process > > > > followed by them and by the attitude of a Jnana Yogi and a > Karma > > > > Yogi. (Refer last para of this edition). Secondly this comment > > > > presumes that Bhakti is necessary for liberation, but actually > > > > Bhakti gets you ever increasing love of God in addition to > > > > liberation. Your translation also of the verse does not bring > > out > > > > Karma Yoga clearly and gets rather tilted towards bhakti when > > you > > > > refer devotional service. Here are some good revelations. > > > > > > > > In this verse the term " loke " stands for " in this world " . > Here > > > only > > > > two yogas (paths) have been described, not three. Bhakti Yoga > > is > > > > absent here. Reason is that while Jnana Yoga and Karma Yoga > > > > are " laukik " (worldly – beliefs/paths to be practiced in > > relation > > > to > > > > the world and worldly things), the Bhakti Yoga is " alaukik " > > > > (beyond this world - divine, special path, a belief/path to be > > > > practiced in relation to God). Refer also discussion below > > dealing > > > > with perishable/imperishable - both of which elements are > > worldly > > > > only. > > > > > > > > The term " nishtha " stands for Equanimity, which can be either > > > > attained through the path of knowledge or through path of > > action. > > > > (There is very little need of equanimity in fact in Bhakti > > Yoga) – > > > > Refer distinction made by God in Gita 2:39. > > > > > > > > Corresponding to these two paths there are two types of > purushas > > > > (men) – Gita 15:16 – one Akshar (Immortal self) and > two " Kshar " > > > > (mortal world). To remain equanimous in success or failure, or > > > > profits or losses (dualities) etc. of the perishable is Karma > > > Yoga, > > > > while having disinclination for the perishable and being > > > established > > > > in imperishable (self) is Sankhya or Jnana Yoga. But above > these > > > two > > > > there is the Supreme Person who is beyond the perishable, > and > > is > > > > superior to the imperishable, called as Paramatma (God) in the > > > > scriptures and Veda (Gita 15:18). Thus a whole hearted > surrender > > > to > > > > God, is called Discipline of Devotion (Bhakti Yoga). In Karma > > Yoga > > > > there is predominance of perishable, in Sankhya Yoga there is > > > > predominance of imperishable and in Bhakti Yoga there is > > > > predominance of God. > > > > > > > > The state of " nishtha " (Equanimity) can be attained by > strivers, > > > > either through knowledge or through Action, but identification > > > with > > > > the God, is not their own (nishtha). In Sankhya state, > strivers > > > > experience distinctly, the existence of their own selves, as > > well > > > > as, that of the world and try to cut asunder the affinity for > > the > > > > world. A Karma Yogi offers to the world, everything (including > > > even > > > > his body), that he has derived from it and removes affinity > > from > > > > the world. In this way both of them get established in their > > true > > > > form – the self. > > > > > > > > Neither think others as evil doers, nor wish evil to others > nor > > do > > > > evil to others- with this outlook " Karma Yoga " begins. Nothing > > is > > > > mine, I need nothing and I have to do nothing for myself – by > > > > accepting this truth " Jnana (Sankhya) Yoga " begins. > > > > > > > > The beauty is that in both the paths of JY and KY there is no > > need > > > > of even thinking about/ focusing/ accepting the existence of > God > > > at > > > > all. Both JYs and KYs get liberated easily without even > > imagining > > > > about God. It is only in BY that God comes into picture right > > from > > > > beginning. In both JY and KY the God is optional not at all > > > > compulsory even upto the final stage. > > > > > > > > You, Mike has presumed an order of KY first, then JY and then > BY > > > as > > > > the last. Gita does not to that view. In Gita it is > > JY, > > > > then KY (superior to JY) and then BY (best ). However all > three > > > are > > > > Independent ways of liberation. If you are determined then > you > > > need > > > > not take another or additional route to continue your journey, > > > > unless when you want love of God also. All three get you > > > > liberation. > > > > > > > > The aforesaid orders therefore are from comfort point of view > > only. > > > > > > > > Now coming to how they are different from process point of > view. > > > In > > > > JY you use your power of " knowing " , in KY your power > of " doing " > > > and > > > > in BY your power of belief/acceptance. In JY your conscience > is > > > the > > > > guiding force, in KY it is action and in BY it is emotions of > > > > faith/belief. In JY you depend upon self, in KY upon duty and > in > > > BY > > > > upon God. In JY you renounce ego, in KY " desires " and in BY > the > > > > mineness with the world. In JY you eliminate ego, in KY you > > > > modify/purify ego and in BY you change your ego. In JY you > > become > > > > equal to God, in KY near to God and in BY indivisible with > God. > > A > > > JY > > > > is useful to himself, a KY is useful to the world and a BY to > > the > > > > God. In JY your desire to " know something " is extinguished, in > > > > KY " to do something " and in BY to get something. In JY you > > > renounce > > > > the doership first, in KY you renounce the " enjoyership " and > in > > BY > > > > you renounce the " mineness " with the worldly people. In JY you > > get > > > > pleased by self, in KY by seeing others happy, in BY by making > > God > > > > happy.In JY you don't do anything, in KY you do for others > only > > > and > > > > in BY you do for God. In JY you surrender the things to > Nature, > > in > > > > KY to the world and in BY to the God.In JY obstacle is your > ego > > > and > > > > body, in KY obstacle is your attachment with worldly pleasures > > and > > > > in BY the obstacle is remaining away from God. In JY your > karmas > > > get > > > > burnt, in KY they become " akarmas " (fruitless) and in BY they > > > > become " divya " ( divine). In JY you don't desire anything from > > > > anyone, in KY you fulfil desires of others and in BY you merge > > > your > > > > desires into the desire of God. In JY you don't consider > anyone > > to > > > > be " mine " , in KY all in the world are yours but for selfless > > > > service only, and in BY only God is yours. > > > > > > > > Balance in next edition. > > > > > > > > Jai Shree Krishna > > > > > > > > Vyas N B > > > > ---------------------------- -- > -- > > -- > > > > It is very interesting to read your teachings ! I personally > > feel > > > > that if one can use the ' INDRIYAS' as tools, ( The sensory > > > > organs ) then, one uses the eyes to its fullest - which means > > that > > > > the job of the eyes is only to report - see and report - but, > we > > > > then remember that all the further decisions are made by the > > atma > > > or > > > > the self which is the life - and if this self is manifested > with > > > > desires - it does not follow the righteous path, then the eyes > > are > > > > not to blame for reporting ! The BG is the best tool which > > teaches > > > > us how to use these indriyas to our betterment - not to > > > destruction > > > > with desires !! > > > > > > > > Prapati > > > > ---------------------------- -- > -- > > - > > > > > > > > , " sadhak_insight " > > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > -Shree Hari- > > > > > I would very much appreciate any comments or guidance on my > > > > thoughts > > > > > below regarding surrender, > > > > > I have listed some of the chapters plus a learned comment, > that > > > > > formulated my thinking. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > BG 2.7 > > > > > " Now I am confused about my duty and have lost all composure > > > > because > > > > > of miserly weakness. In this condition I am asking You to > tell > > > me > > > > for > > > > > certain what is best for me. Now I am Your disciple, and a > soul > > > > > surrendered unto You. Please instruct me. " > > > > > BG 3.3 > > > > > The Supreme Personality of Godhead said: O sinless Arjuna, I > > have > > > > > already explained that there are two classes of men who try > to > > > > > realize > > > > > the self. Some are inclined to understand it by empirical, > > > > > philosophical speculation, and others by devotional service. > > > > > > > > > > A comment on 3.3 > > > > > The karmi and jnani are different in name only. Actually > > > persons > > > > > engaged in karma become pure hearted jnanis by the actions. > > And > > > the > > > > > jnanis become liberated by bhakti. This is meaning of all my > > > words. > > > > > > > > > > BG 3.7 > > > > > On the other hand, if a sincere person tries to control the > > > active > > > > > senses by the mind and begins karma-yoga [in Krishna > > > consciousness] > > > > > without attachment, he is by far superior. > > > > > > > > > > Surrender:- > > > > > > > > > > From my readings it appears that with jnana , ultimately the > > > > > aspirant, can hit a brick wall as it were, the mind finds a > > > place > > > > > it cannot proceed beyond. At that point to surrender to > the > > > > Divine > > > > > Lord without reservation, to no longer think in pure logic > of > > > the > > > > > Absolute Truth, and to follow faithfully the path that opens > > > > before > > > > > you with courage. Can open the eyes with wonder, as the Lord > > > shows > > > > > his presence in all that is revealed, how can a soul be > > anything > > > > but > > > > > bhakti, after such a moment of truth? > > > > > > > > > > With Respect and Divine Love, > > > > > > > > > > Mike > > > > > (Mike Keenor) > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------- -- > - > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > GUIDELINES FOR POSTING A RESPONSE: > > > > > > > > > > 1. The group is focused on the Holy Gitaji, therefore, only > > > > > responses which further clarify the understanding of Gitaji, > > > will > > > > be > > > > > posted. > > > > > > > > > > 2. Making reference of Gitaji shloka is highly encouraged - > at > > > > least > > > > > once in the response. Wherever possible, please quote > Gitaji > > or > > > > > other scriptures to substantiate your response. > > > > > > > > > > 3. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, > > respecting > > > > > sadhaka's time. Under no circustance the answer should > exceed > > > say > > > > > one page at the most (500 words or so). > > > > > > > > > > 4. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to > > the > > > > > extent that they further help in understanding the Gita > shlokas > > > > > > > > > > 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only. > > > > > > > > > > 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other > > > > > organizations. > > > > > > > > > > 7. Complete reproduction of texts from any book is strongly > > > > > discouraged, however references may be made of the book or > > > author > > > > > (but not links to other sites). > > > > > > > > > > 8. Kindly do not include your personal information such as > > phone > > > > > number, address etc. > > > > > > > > > > 9. Please do not address the response to a particular > > individual > > > > > since the message is going to the entire group. > > > > > > > > > > 10. Due to the large readership, only those responses will > be > > > > posted > > > > > which are in line with the general philosophy of taking > > Shrimad > > > > > Bhagavad Gita as the reference. > > > > > > > > > > 11. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if > > > > content > > > > > is unclear for distribution or not directly related to the > > > > question > > > > > being asked. > > > > > > > > > > 12. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, > > youth, > > > > > westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use of > > only > > > > > Sanskrit words, rather provide the English word with > Sanskrit > > > > > bracketed wherever possible. > > > > > > > > > > MODERATOR > > > > > Ram Ram > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 11, 2008 Report Share Posted July 11, 2008 Following has been written in commentary to Chapter 18 Verse 61 in the Gitaji (Verses and their meaning) published by Gita Press. Discarding shame, fear, praise and attachment; shedding feeling of me and mine from the body and the world; accepting God as the sole shelter, final destiation and every thing; non stop remembering of God's name, God's virtues, God's influence and God's form with great reverence, devotion and love; doing all worldly activities and duties keeping God in mind, as per God's orders/ instructions, without any worldly attachment and doing every thing only for God. This is true " Sharanagati " (Surrender to God). I have attempted to translate from Hindi to English myself and hence there may be some difference in the actual intention of the writer. However, I personally feel that the translation is close to what has been written. A.H.Dalmia Naga ji has right understanding of the 'surrender' because self realization is not an obligation towards anyone else but is about understanding of the truth. When two people fight over a subject, and finally an experiment proves the real position where both agree. For example, in earlier days, some people thought of earth as centre and sun encircling it, and another people thought just reverse. In final view, the later proved correct, and everybody accepted it to the one truth. In exactly similar way, the conflicts within us finds answer in universal knowledge of self realization and that which is free from any conflict, is the truth. The mind thus surrenders to superior most wisdom, and this is surrender to the God. Or in other words, it is removal of ignorance. Sciences are evolved by inquiry into natural phenomena. Scientists, and even philosophers get satisfied only when their mind is at peace by correct understanding. They write what they understood so that errors are removed, and people share the higher wisdom. This truth of sciences in observed objects or conduct of surrender and people follow laws discovered in sciences. One step above is Dharma or knowledge about observer and character rather than conduct. One step further is beyond the ultimate truth of life cycles and causes of changes. In these way, surrender is a term for going higher in ladder of awareness. Regards K G Misra -Shree Hari- In referance to the comment by Vyas N B: You spoke my life since that point of change. Indeed it is the simple truth, I at times find it hard to believe the way things have played out, I just have to accept it with humility. I do mean humility. I know I am among people with great knowledge of the Bhagavad Gita, and indeed it seems to have an energy when I read it, even though my comprehension of it is poor. The debate goes this way, then that way, " I disagree, I agree " . To me it is like, in a spiritual sense, a fan swishing over smoldering coals bringing them to life. With respect and Divine Love, Mike (Mike Keenor) ------------------------------ Remember Hindus, there is no " God " in the Gita. " God " is not a Hindu term. Class Yoga From Moderator : Please suggest other words that represent That Paramatma Ram Ram -------------------------------- , " sadhak_insight " <sadhak_insight wrote: > > Hari Om > > Oh! How nice it is to sit together and deliberate! Devotion , the name God has infinite ways to gladden soul. Consider clarification of Mike. What he " experienced " was right. Whatever he read was debated. This is to be noted. Soul knows no barriers. Conscience is always perfect. Your direct experience is infinite times better than learning! Gita touches your soul. You are right Mike, the beginning of spiritual journey does not always involve God being in focus. You search for the truth and suddenly you get changed - character, habits, attitude, every thing changes for better. The same world, the same worldly people start looking different. Your focus shifts towards looking goodness in others and suddenly you realise there are people who help without expecting results. They were there in the past also, Sure. But with change in us they are seen with clarity. One day, and that day is not far for any determined aspirant, will come when all around us will be revealed to us as God and God only! > > That revelation in fact is the goal of every human being! > > Jai Shree Krishna > > Vyas N B > > ------------------------------- > Hari Hari! > > I have but two short points. > > 1. The issue of whether one can actually surrender to God, as Naga > Narayana has put the issue, actually pivots around two very > different conceptions of God and jivas. The spiritual teacher > (Swami Ramsukdasji) whose disciples host this discussion, it is my > understanding that he has apparently taught that individuality is an > illusion of the material world, and upon liberation, we merge with > the impersonal Supreme. I come from a line of teaching that > considers individual identity to be eternal, and that each > individual has an eternal relationship with the Supreme Personality > of Godhead. With the second conception, the logic leading to the > conclusion of surrender and Bhakti is apparent. Generally, I've > found that those following first line of teaching consider the > second to be incorrect, and vice versa. I don't really see a > purpose in debating the point here; actually, I think everyone > should pursue God in the way that they can believe in, and > hopefully those of us who are farther can come nearer to God through > devotion to our respective paths. > > 2. I mainly use a translation of the Bhagavad Gita that is well > respected by religious studies departments and sanskrit scholars > throughout the world, what to speak of Vaishnava religious > authorities. The translator comes from an established line of > teachers, and in his life he was an exemplary devotee: A.C. > Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. It is readily available online with > sanskrit, word-by-word translations. I have not referred > to other's translations as possessing a " serious limitation, " but > rather have accepted your respected teacher's translations because I > know they are sacred to you. > > This is a very nice opportunity to learn about different conceptions > of God, and to use important questions (like that of surrender) to > delve deeper into our own philosophies. I hope it can be done > respectfully, now that we are aware of our philosophical > differences. I think there is still much held in common. > > Hare Krishna, > Hannah Sandal > > > ------------------------------ > How about saying surrender to ALMIGHTY who controls OUR Natural > Habitat including Environmemt and Human Evolution itself? > > Mohan K Muju > > ------------------------------- > , " sadhak_insight " > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > What is " surrendering " ? > > > > Samarpana – Bhakti – God > > > > No one can " surrender " to God. If something receives your > > surrenderance, then it is NOT God. Surrendering involves two > > distinct parties – one superior and the other inferior, both being > > limited owing to their mutually exclusive distinction from each > > other. One who surrenders is not a Bhakta and one who is > surrendered > > to is not God either. One who surrenders is at worst a slave and > one > > who receives a surrenderer is at best a king. Note that both a > slave > > and a king are nothing but slaves – individuals with no freedom. > > Note that all the distinctions are arased between a Bhakta and > God. > > The very meaning of Bhakti is the mitigation of all alienation of > a > > person with ereference to God. The Bhakta is as liberated as The > God > > as such due to the lack of all alienating notions between the two. > > Therefore, the very term " surrender " is a fallacy in spiritual > > practice because the word has the popular cannotation of " giving > > away something " or " sacrificing something " as if by force or by no > > other choice. > > > > The sanskrit term " Samarpana " is often referred to as " to > surrender " > > since that is probably the best english word available. " Arpana " > > means denying ownership of something; " samarpana " is denying the > > very ownership in all respects – in actions, in thoughts as well > as > > in desires. The very denial is the only route to mitigate the > > differences between subject and object, objects and objects, and > God > > and objects. All the distinctions between God, subject and objects > > are rooted in the perceived notion of ownership as such. Observing > > the illusive and evasive nature of one's ego to hang on to one or > > the other ownership, understanding the mythical unreality in all > > such notions, and realizing that all our miseries are in fact > rooted > > in such notions as such is the sound process of purging all the > > notions of ownership within to liberate oneself to merge with the > > Universal Reality with no constraints or conditions of any kind. > > Therefore, " samarpana " is the path of devotion to reach the > Absolute > > Freedom. There is nothing given up in samarpana. There is nothing > > transacted in samarpana. There is nothing attained in samarpana. > Not > > seeking to give up, transact and attain is called Bhakti. > > > > If surrendering is understood synanymous with samarpana, the very > > act is the only Knowledge. Anything else is just information. The > > Bhakti (Samarpana) is the very Karma (The Act). The Karma is the > > very Gnyana (The Knowledge). Thinking that the mind is the the > > domain of knowledge is a huge misnomer. Understanding that the > mind > > is part of knowledge and knowledge is not part of mind is the true > > knowledge. That is the true surrender (samarpana) from mind's > > perspective. A Samarpita Manas (truly surrendered mind) is The God > > as such where the notion of surrendering never raises again. A > > samarpita manas cannot face any kind of " brick walls " – removing > all > > such obstacles is the role of logic (informational analysis – > > Sankhya); NOT to create one! I would not agree that if somebody > > believes to be in Bhakti when one cannot think further as Para > > Bhakti. Para Bhakti incorporates proactive understanding (karma- > > purita-gnyana) and realized acitivities (Gnyana-purita-karma). The > > verses quoted by Mr. Keenor often tend to project variant notions > > regarding Karma, Gnyana and Bhakti – but, only in their isolated > > context. As I understand, Bhagavad Gita cannot create any such > > isolation. Everything is THAT alone in all respects though they > may > > appear as variant within one's perception. Breaking the barriers > of > > such perceptional isolation within one's mind is the role of the > > logical observation (Sankhya). Sankhya cannot bring Gnyana – logic > > in any form cannot bring Knowledge. Sankhya becomes Gnyana in its > > purity. So does the Karma. So does the Bhakti. > > > > Tasyai tapo damah karmeti pratishtha – the Shraddha incorporating > > focussed knowledge, controled desire and guided action is the > > foundation for Samarpana. > > > > Vedah sarvangani – all the sources of perception (understanding > all > > perceptions to be as such without any trace of ownership) is the > > domain of Samarpana. > > > > Satyamayatanam – to be The Truth, The Absolute, The Peace, The > Bliss > > … to be ONE is THE SAMARPANA. > > > > Therefore, I canot agree that TRUE SURRENDER (THE SAMARPANA) can > > raise out of an incapable mind. It is the state of a very capable > > mind. > > > > Respects. > > > > Naga Narayana. > > -------------------------------- > > > > Re Sadhak Hannah's views > > > > I am indeed touched by the fact that inspite of the very serious > > limitation of the translations of the verses adopted by you, some > of > > the conclusions arrived at by you were exceptionally accurate. You > > may indeed call that grace of God and power and glory of Gita and > of > > your devotion to God. . > > > > However let me tell you that had you had at your disposal English > > Edition of Saadhak Sanjeevani written by Swamiji Ramsukhdasji > > Maharaj , the entire interpretations of the verses would have > taken > > a divine shape. > > > > For example what you called as " regulative principles of Bhakti > > Yoga " is in fact " constant practice of (chanting etc) divine > name > > with equanimity having God as the aim " in 12:9 ! > > > > 12:10 would have read - > > > > " If you are unable to practice as above , be thou intent on > > performing ordained actions for Me , thus doing self less actions > > for my sake, thou shalt achieve perfection " > > > > The knowledge referred in Ch 12:12 is not Jnana Yoga in entirety. > > Here knowledge means mainly reading of scriptures, having interest > > in what is body, nature,self etc only and merely knowing ( not > > realising or experiencing completely) that you are separate from > > your body etc- in other words in very limited sense only ( as > there > > is no yoga -equanimity attached with that). Here in > 12:12 " practice " > > referred is mere practice not " practice with equanimity having God > > as aim " referred in 12:9 !! > > > > Similarly there is a difference between " practice with Equanimity > > (abhyaas yogen)with keeping God as aim " referred in 12:9 and > > mere " practice " referred in 12:10 (abhyaasepyasamartho) etc etc. > > > > > > Similarly 12:12 does not entirely refer Karma Yoga but only one > > portion of that viz renunciation of fruits Karma Yoga is not > wholly > > and exclusively renunciation of fruits only!. Here > > actually " renunciation " (tyaag) is more glorified > than " renunciation > > with equanimity " . > > > > Thus, Here in 12:12 an eternal principle gets revealed - " every > > renunciation results in instant peace " - > > > > " tyagatchhantimanantaram " > > > > Now this principle is applicable in every department of life, > > everywhere universally! > > > > Differences are subtle but when you practice or implement or try > to > > grasp they become extremely relevant and almost touch your soul. > > After all these verses are the voice of God ! ! Gita is a mirror, > as > > is your attitude so does it look ! ! > > > > Hence I agree with you that there is a need of a perfect > translation > > of these verses. They make sea of a difference.Here there is > > importance of writer! > > > > Jai Shree Krishna > > > > Vyas N B > > > > -------------------------------- - > > Hare Krishna > > > > Re Sadhak Mike " s Query > > > > As mentioned in the verses below, there are two kinds of > devotional > > service: the way of regulative principles and the way of full > > attachment in love to the Supreme Personality of Godhead. For > those > > who are actually not able to follow the principles of Krishna > > consciousness it is better to cultivate knowledge, because by > > knowledge one can be able to understand his real position. > Gradually > > knowledge will develop to the point of meditation. By meditation > one > > can be able to understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead by a > > gradual process. There are processes which make one understand > that > > one himself is the Supreme, and that sort of meditation is > preferred > > if one is unable to engage in devotional service. If one is not > able > > to meditate in such a way, then there are prescribed duties, as > > enjoined in the Vedic literature, for the Brahmanas, Ksatriyas, > > Vaisyas and Sudras, which we shall find in the last chapter of > > Bhagavad-Gita. But in all cases, one should give up the result or > > fruits of labor; this means to employ the result of karma for some > > good cause. > > > > In summary, to reach the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the > highest > > goal, there are two processes: one process is by gradual > > development, and the other process is direct. Devotional service > in > > Krishna consciousness is the direct method, and the other method > > involves renouncing the fruits of one's activities. Then one can > > come to the stage of knowledge, then to the stage of meditation, > > then to the stage of understanding the Supersoul, and then to the > > stage of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. One may take either > the > > step-by-step process or the direct path. The direct process is not > > possible for everyone; therefore the indirect process is also > good. > > It is, however, to be understood that the indirect process is not > > recommended for Arjuna, because he is already at the stage of > loving > > devotional service to the Supreme Lord. It is for others, who are > > not at this stage; for them the gradual process of renunciation, > > knowledge, meditation and realization of the Supersoul and Brahman > > should be followed. But as far as Bhagavad-Gita is concerned, it > is > > the direct method that is stressed. Everyone is advised to take to > > the direct method and surrender unto the Supreme Personality of > > Godhead, Krishna > > > > Your Servant > > > > Janardhana Dasa > > > > -------------------------------- -- > > > > Dear friends > > Vyas ji has ideas on Karma and Zyan and Bhakti and Yoga. In the > > Bhagwat Gita, these are soul of understanding. I will try to > explain > > it in the following way: > > > > Take example of person(s) going from Delhi to Mumbai. In this > > journey of self realization, everyone is in an act of loneliness, > > birth and death in cycles after cycles, and wants to realize truth > > about him/herself. And when this destination is fixed, YOGA > starts. > > YOGA is placing one on a path of self realization. > > > > When an individual starts journey in search of truth, he does it > by > > his/her natural instinct whatever it is. This knowledge of the > > swabhaav is called ZYAN. Because this ZYAN is directed to (YOGA) > the > > path of self realization, it is called ZYAN YOGA. Has this ZYAN > been > > is not in a direction of self realization, that would be VISHAYA. > > > > By knowing the swbhaav, when individual works this is called > KARMA. > > At every new milestone, the swbhaav gets more pure, and this is > > called KARMA YOGA. But when individual does not know his/her > > swbhaav and works not in the direction of self realization, this > is > > VYAVSAYA (from Vishaya). > > > > When an individual is working all alone and reaches a stage of > self > > realization, this is ZYAN YOGA and KARMA YOGA. In Buddhist > > tradition, this way is called HINAYAN (small vehicle). It has > > advantage because an individual follows TAPAH (endurance), and > > learns by mistakes, and quite clear in mind. In earlier periods, > all > > Yogis used to stay alone and meditate in forests. Krishna is > Himself > > this example. > > > > In case when an individual finds another soul, and joined with it, > > this togetherness is called BHAKTI. And when the people in group > > work and knowing right way, this is called BHAKTI YOGA. Buddhist > > called it MAHA YAN (large vehicle). In this case, if Bhakti is > with > > right Guru, the individual keeps following and reaches > destination. > > This is BHAKTI YOGA and KARMA YOGA. The ZYAN YOGA is there but not > > relevant because the right path of GURU is enough. SoorDas and > > TulsiDas are example of saints who never lived in forests and > never > > fought war like Arjun, and they by their mind only followed Ram > and > > Krishna. Zyan is there but not has any effect. It is like > milistones > > (Kota, Baroda) falling on the way from Delhi to Mumbai, and the > > passenger like TulsiDas never get it noticed. > > > > Arjun is the one who is together with Krishna (BHAKTI YOGA). He > got > > explanation of every stage in the journey of self realization or > > self transformation to truth (ZYAN YOGA), and had to fight a war > > like living in dangerous forest (tapah, endurance) and staying at > > course is KARMA YOGA. All three. > > > > Buddha says same thing in other words > > Buddham Sharam Gachhami = " Go " to Truth (Karma YOGA) > > Dhamman sharnam Gachhami'= by following your " self nature " (Zyan > > YOGA) > > Sangham sharnam Gachhami = go " together " (Bhakti YOGA) > > > > > > Best regards > > K G > > (Krishna Gopal) > > ----------------------------- > > > > -Shree Hari- > > > > Clarification: > > > > The comment on BG 3.3 was not mine but was on the Bhagavad Gita I > was > > reading on line. Thus of course this does not change the wisdom of > > the > > comments posted. > > Surrender comment was based on personal experience, (and that of > > the man I met in strange circumstances). We both had one thing in > > common and that was to find the truth, (spiritual truth, not > > necessarily God focussed). > > I can only speak from my heart, (he has his own journey). But one > > reached a point where every perception one had fell away. A state > of > > absolute bewilderment. Of course I know now that the brick wall > was > > my > > own ignorance. But I did then realize that I needed Divine help. > > The early Chapters that I have read seem to be around these > thoughts > > of mine. > > I have also learned that character change does happen. One does > help > > others without wanting for reward, in fact being at one with those > > that suffer. And of course always the intellect, but not so > blinded > > by > > the ego, knowing ultimately there is GOD. > > This seems to fit in general with the comments, have read. > > I know there is much for me to learn. > > > > With respects and Divine Love. > > > > Mike Keenor > > > > > > > > -------------------------------- -- > - > > , " sadhak_insight " > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > > > Hari Om > > > > > > Re Sadhak Mike " s Query > > > > > > Let us now talk about surrender. Your 2nd learned comment is > > indeed > > > soul touching and is almost perfect. However as stated in > previous > > > episode the Bhakti Yoga is independent and therefore the > surrender > > > doesnot begin when the limitation of mind is realised. It is a > > > principle that mind and intellect cannot reach God because both > > are > > > part of Nature (Prakrati) and God is beyond the Nature. > However > > > you can always change the focus ( direction) of mind and > intellect > > > from the world to the God. That in itself is more than > sufficient. > > > > > > Bhakti Yoga begins with the outlook - " I am of the God and only > > God > > > is mine, and nobody else is mine " and attains perfection when > you > > > start seeing/ experiencing presence of God everywhere. Read > > > carefully the process differences given by me in the previous > > > edition. There are dozens or more such differences but due to > > space > > > constraints I have given briefly. They are really important > from > > > spiritual practice point of view. > > > > > > From your second comment it has been revealed to me that you > have > > > set the goal for yourself to feel the presence of God > everywhere. > > > Believe me that goal is perfect- It is ultimate and real Bhakti > > Yoga- > > > let me tell you. " VASUDEVAH SARVAM " – All this is God (Gita > > 7:19) > > > is the final conclusion of Gita and the surrender is the > ultimate > > > weapon which an aspirant has in his spiritual journey- there is > no > > > doubt on these two. In fact Gita begins with surrender ( BG 2:7 > > > quoted by you too) and ends with surrender (18:66). > > > > > > God starts conversation talking about " WORRYING " to Arjuna ( > 2:11) > > > and ends his conversation telling Arjuna not to worry( 18:66). > I > > > would suggest you read " Saadhak Sanjeevani " a Treatise on Gita > by > > > Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj, the English Edition of which is > also > > > there. That will solve translation confusions of the verses > > forever > > > for you and it is so vast, comprehensive and clear that merely > by > > > reading you may change your perceptions and it shall enthuse you > > in > > > your journey in a miraculous manner. If I get address I may > ensure > > > you get latest copy of the same by post. In my eyes it is an > > > essential commentary and the ULTIMATE ON GITA. No other > detailed > > > commentary has the depth of cross reference and can even be a > > > semblance of it- it is my experience. It is the best on the > > subject, > > > written by a God realised soul exclusively to help aspirants > only. > > > > > > Hope I have been able to provide clarity. Everything which I > write > > > is from the books and discourses of Swamiji only. Only the > > > translation or presentation is mine. Pls do write if you need > > more > > > clarification . > > > > > > Jai Shree Krishna > > > > > > Vyas N B > > > ------------------------------ -- > -- > > > , " sadhak_insight " > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Hari Hari! > > > > In considering this current conversation, I looked to chapter > > > twelve > > > > of the Gita, entitled " Devotional Service " . Please forgive my > > > > quoting of several verses: > > > > > > > > 12.6-7 But those who worship Me, giving up all their > activities > > > > unto Me and being devoted to Me without deviation, engaged in > > > > devotional service and always meditating upon Me, having fixed > > > their > > > > minds upon Me, O son of Pritha for them I am the swift > deliverer > > > > from the ocean of birth and death. > > > > > > > > BG 12.8: Just fix your mind upon Me, the Supreme Personality > of > > > > Godhead, and engage all your intelligence in Me. Thus you will > > > live > > > > in Me always, without a doubt. > > > > > > > > BG 12.9: My dear Arjuna, O winner of wealth, if you cannot fix > > > your > > > > mind upon Me without deviation, then follow the regulative > > > > principles of bhakti-yoga. In this way develop a desire to > > attain > > > Me. > > > > > > > > BG 12.10: If you cannot practice the regulations of bhakti- > yoga, > > > > then just try to work for Me, because by working for Me you > will > > > > come to the perfect stage. > > > > > > > > BG 12.11: If, however, you are unable to work in this > > > consciousness > > > > of Me, then try to act giving up all results of your work and > > try > > > to > > > > be self-situated. > > > > > > > > BG 12.12: If you cannot take to this practice, then engage > > > yourself > > > > in the cultivation of knowledge. Better than knowledge, > however, > > > is > > > > meditation, and better than meditation is renunciation of the > > > fruits > > > > of action, for by such renunciation one can attain peace of > mind. > > > > > > > > Here, Krishna outlines the options available to us, and > > encourages > > > > them to pursue them to the best of our ability. He says that > > > > cultivation of knolwedge (JYoga) and renunciation of the > fruits > > > of > > > > action (KYoga) are both beneficial on the path towards > > liberation > > > > because they help us develop a " desire to attain " God. We can > > use > > > > our intelliegence to understand the philosophy of God, and we > > > > can use our ability to renounce to practice controlling our > > mind. > > > > Bhakti yoga provides principles to practice loving service to > > God. > > > > We can see in 12.6-7 that the goal of all of this is to be > 100% > > > > fixed in a relationship of devotional service with the Supreme > > > Lord. > > > > It is at this point that God provides liberation to those who > > are > > > > devoted to him. > > > > > > > > One final note, is that we are perhaps working from different > > > > translations. I am of the opinion that each person should > study > > > the > > > > authors of the translations, and the quality of different > > > > translations, and find the one that is most in line with their > > own > > > > purposes. The differences arise from the difference between > > > > English and Sanskrit: there are words in Sanskrit that have > many > > > > meanings, and these meanings are dependant upon grammar, > > spelling, > > > > and context. Translation into English is not always > > > straightforward, > > > > and frequently depends upon the background and purpose of the > > > > translator. You'll find, for example, a very different > > translation > > > > of the Gita used for learning Sanskrit in American > universities. > > > > > > > > your servant, > > > > H. Sandal > > > > (Hannah Sandal) > > > > -------------------------- > > > > Dear Sadhakas, Namaste! > > > > > > > > The essence of the verses mentioned by Mike Keenor has been > > > captured > > > > in his own words. > > > > > > > > I would like to suggest, however, that we don't need to > consider > > > any > > > > one path being superior to other paths toward Self-God > > > Realization. > > > > If Self-God realization were to mean freedom from sorrows and > to > > > > live in unconditional Love serving all, it is all the more > > > important > > > > to see all paths being equal even if they differ in their > > > > approaches. If the ultimate results are the same, there is no > > need > > > > to compare any paths as being superior or inferior. Krishnaji > > may > > > > have said only to emphasize that all can attain such freedom > > even > > > if > > > > they are not prone to one or the other paths. > > > > > > > > We need to see that God is not separate from such a Gyani, or > > > Karma- > > > > Yogi or Devotee! Gita says God is Devotion in Bhakta, Truth- > > Being- > > > > Self in Gyani and self-less actions in Karm-Yogi. Ultimately > > that > > > is > > > > what happens to Bhakta(Devotee), Karma-Yogi(person of selfless > > > > action), and Gyani(Self-realized). > > > > > > > > Some of us are naturally inclined to do Karmas! To make their > > > Karmas > > > > not binding and yet serve those who are in need, Gita > prescribes > > > the > > > > Karma-Yoga meaning self-less actions. > > > > > > > > By performing actions without assuming doership, guided by > > > > righteousness, frees one from Bondage due to karmas. Unless > one > > > has > > > > total devotion while performing actions and total surrender of > > > > results to God, one just cannot do such self-less actions. > Thus > > > > Karma-Yogi is also doing Bhakti, leading to freedom(moksha) > from > > > > sorrows. He will eventually realize his true nature being Sat- > > Chit- > > > > Ananda(Supreme Consciousness, not an individual). > > > > > > > > In the same way one who is given to inquiry, is a Truth > Seeker. > > > > He/She will in time become Truth Lover by seeking nothing but > > > Truth. > > > > Upon experiencing glimpses of truth in daily life, the > devotion > > to > > > > Truth becomes intense. So again such a truth lover is also > > devotee- > > > > bhakta of Truth, same as God and then attains knowledge of who > > > > he/she is in reality and thus perfection! > > > > > > > > In my experience, one just doesn't follow only one path, > rather > > > one > > > > integrates all such paths and God given resoureces! As we all > > > know, > > > > no one can remain without actions, and all of us have quality > of > > > > devotion at least in something we do! > > > > > > > > In the times we are living at present, it is more appropriate > to > > > > perform Karmas with the best of one's ability to serve > humanity, > > > > assuming no-doership thereof and to accept or rather welcome > > > results > > > > of such actions. This will automatically leads one to wonder > and > > > > inquire about the nature of God, world, and oneself. Upon > > > > contemplation of all three, one will realize the truth of them > > and > > > > eventually get established in True Self. Out of such knowledge > > one > > > > becomes a mystic, so to speak, and his/her existence is > aligned > > > with > > > > Totality or wholeness of Being in which individuality is > > absorbed. > > > > God is just the name to such Experience of Being everything, > > which > > > > is Absolute Existence and thus Ananda. > > > > > > > > Namaskars...Pratap > > > > (Pratap Bhatt) > > > > > > > > ---------------------------- -- > -- > > -- > > > > > > > > > > > > , " sadhak_insight " > > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hari Om > > > > > > > > > > You have sought comments on certain verses of Gita dealing > > with > > > > > Jnana Yoga (JY) , Karma Yoga (KY) and Bhakti Yoga (BY) and > on > > > two > > > > > learned comments, that formulated your thinking. I shall > > briefly > > > > > take you through the best on the subject to impart total > > > clarity. > > > > > The answer shall be in minimum two installments of one page > > > each, > > > > > maximum three. > > > > > > > > > > First Bhagavad Gita 3:3. The correct translation of the > verse > > is > > > > as > > > > > under - " O Sinless Arjuna, in this world a two fold path > > has > > > > been > > > > > enunciated by Me before, the Path of Knowledge (Jnana Yoga > or > > > > > Sankhya Yoga) for men of renunciation and the Path of > Action > > > for > > > > > men of action (Karma Yoga) " . > > > > > > > > > > The correct translation of BG 3:7 is - " But he who controls > > his > > > > > senses through the mind, O Arjuna, and engages himself in > the > > > path > > > > > of action, with the organs of action and sense, without > being > > > > > attached, is superior. " > > > > > > > > > > Your comment that - " The karmi and jnani are different in > name > > > > only. > > > > > Actually, persons engaged in karma become pure hearted > jnanis > > by > > > > > their actions. And the jnanis become liberated by bhakti. " - > > > > can > > > > > not be said to be entirely correct. Because it pre suposses > > that > > > > the > > > > > outcome or the end result of these exercises is " purity of > > > heart " > > > > > while actually the end result of both of them > is " liberation " . > > > > > Further the comment that they are different names only is > > right > > > > from > > > > > only end result perspective and certainly not from the > process > > > > > followed by them and by the attitude of a Jnana Yogi and a > > Karma > > > > > Yogi. (Refer last para of this edition). Secondly this > comment > > > > > presumes that Bhakti is necessary for liberation, but > actually > > > > > Bhakti gets you ever increasing love of God in addition to > > > > > liberation. Your translation also of the verse does not > bring > > > out > > > > > Karma Yoga clearly and gets rather tilted towards bhakti > when > > > you > > > > > refer devotional service. Here are some good revelations. > > > > > > > > > > In this verse the term " loke " stands for " in this world " . > > Here > > > > only > > > > > two yogas (paths) have been described, not three. Bhakti > Yoga > > > is > > > > > absent here. Reason is that while Jnana Yoga and Karma Yoga > > > > > are " laukik " (worldly – beliefs/paths to be practiced in > > > relation > > > > to > > > > > the world and worldly things), the Bhakti Yoga > is " alaukik " > > > > > (beyond this world - divine, special path, a belief/path to > be > > > > > practiced in relation to God). Refer also discussion below > > > dealing > > > > > with perishable/imperishable - both of which elements are > > > worldly > > > > > only. > > > > > > > > > > The term " nishtha " stands for Equanimity, which can be > either > > > > > attained through the path of knowledge or through path of > > > action. > > > > > (There is very little need of equanimity in fact in Bhakti > > > Yoga) – > > > > > Refer distinction made by God in Gita 2:39. > > > > > > > > > > Corresponding to these two paths there are two types of > > purushas > > > > > (men) – Gita 15:16 – one Akshar (Immortal self) and > > two " Kshar " > > > > > (mortal world). To remain equanimous in success or failure, > or > > > > > profits or losses (dualities) etc. of the perishable is > Karma > > > > Yoga, > > > > > while having disinclination for the perishable and being > > > > established > > > > > in imperishable (self) is Sankhya or Jnana Yoga. But above > > these > > > > two > > > > > there is the Supreme Person who is beyond the perishable, > > and > > > is > > > > > superior to the imperishable, called as Paramatma (God) in > the > > > > > scriptures and Veda (Gita 15:18). Thus a whole hearted > > surrender > > > > to > > > > > God, is called Discipline of Devotion (Bhakti Yoga). In > Karma > > > Yoga > > > > > there is predominance of perishable, in Sankhya Yoga there > is > > > > > predominance of imperishable and in Bhakti Yoga there is > > > > > predominance of God. > > > > > > > > > > The state of " nishtha " (Equanimity) can be attained by > > strivers, > > > > > either through knowledge or through Action, but > identification > > > > with > > > > > the God, is not their own (nishtha). In Sankhya state, > > strivers > > > > > experience distinctly, the existence of their own selves, as > > > well > > > > > as, that of the world and try to cut asunder the affinity > for > > > the > > > > > world. A Karma Yogi offers to the world, everything > (including > > > > even > > > > > his body), that he has derived from it and removes affinity > > > from > > > > > the world. In this way both of them get established in their > > > true > > > > > form – the self. > > > > > > > > > > Neither think others as evil doers, nor wish evil to others > > nor > > > do > > > > > evil to others- with this outlook " Karma Yoga " begins. > Nothing > > > is > > > > > mine, I need nothing and I have to do nothing for myself – > by > > > > > accepting this truth " Jnana (Sankhya) Yoga " begins. > > > > > > > > > > The beauty is that in both the paths of JY and KY there is > no > > > need > > > > > of even thinking about/ focusing/ accepting the existence of > > God > > > > at > > > > > all. Both JYs and KYs get liberated easily without even > > > imagining > > > > > about God. It is only in BY that God comes into picture > right > > > from > > > > > beginning. In both JY and KY the God is optional not at all > > > > > compulsory even upto the final stage. > > > > > > > > > > You, Mike has presumed an order of KY first, then JY and > then > > BY > > > > as > > > > > the last. Gita does not to that view. In Gita it > is > > > JY, > > > > > then KY (superior to JY) and then BY (best ). However all > > three > > > > are > > > > > Independent ways of liberation. If you are determined then > > you > > > > need > > > > > not take another or additional route to continue your > journey, > > > > > unless when you want love of God also. All three get you > > > > > liberation. > > > > > > > > > > The aforesaid orders therefore are from comfort point of > view > > > only. > > > > > > > > > > Now coming to how they are different from process point of > > view. > > > > In > > > > > JY you use your power of " knowing " , in KY your power > > of " doing " > > > > and > > > > > in BY your power of belief/acceptance. In JY your conscience > > is > > > > the > > > > > guiding force, in KY it is action and in BY it is emotions > of > > > > > faith/belief. In JY you depend upon self, in KY upon duty > and > > in > > > > BY > > > > > upon God. In JY you renounce ego, in KY " desires " and in BY > > the > > > > > mineness with the world. In JY you eliminate ego, in KY you > > > > > modify/purify ego and in BY you change your ego. In JY you > > > become > > > > > equal to God, in KY near to God and in BY indivisible with > > God. > > > A > > > > JY > > > > > is useful to himself, a KY is useful to the world and a BY > to > > > the > > > > > God. In JY your desire to " know something " is extinguished, > in > > > > > KY " to do something " and in BY to get something. In JY you > > > > renounce > > > > > the doership first, in KY you renounce the " enjoyership " and > > in > > > BY > > > > > you renounce the " mineness " with the worldly people. In JY > you > > > get > > > > > pleased by self, in KY by seeing others happy, in BY by > making > > > God > > > > > happy.In JY you don't do anything, in KY you do for others > > only > > > > and > > > > > in BY you do for God. In JY you surrender the things to > > Nature, > > > in > > > > > KY to the world and in BY to the God.In JY obstacle is your > > ego > > > > and > > > > > body, in KY obstacle is your attachment with worldly > pleasures > > > and > > > > > in BY the obstacle is remaining away from God. In JY your > > karmas > > > > get > > > > > burnt, in KY they become " akarmas " (fruitless) and in BY > they > > > > > become " divya " ( divine). In JY you don't desire anything > from > > > > > anyone, in KY you fulfil desires of others and in BY you > merge > > > > your > > > > > desires into the desire of God. In JY you don't consider > > anyone > > > to > > > > > be " mine " , in KY all in the world are yours but for > selfless > > > > > service only, and in BY only God is yours. > > > > > > > > > > Balance in next edition. > > > > > > > > > > Jai Shree Krishna > > > > > > > > > > Vyas N B > > > > > -------------------------- -- > -- > > -- > > > -- > > > > > It is very interesting to read your teachings ! I personally > > > feel > > > > > that if one can use the ' INDRIYAS' as tools, ( The sensory > > > > > organs ) then, one uses the eyes to its fullest - which > means > > > that > > > > > the job of the eyes is only to report - see and report - > but, > > we > > > > > then remember that all the further decisions are made by the > > > atma > > > > or > > > > > the self which is the life - and if this self is manifested > > with > > > > > desires - it does not follow the righteous path, then the > eyes > > > are > > > > > not to blame for reporting ! The BG is the best tool which > > > teaches > > > > > us how to use these indriyas to our betterment - not to > > > > destruction > > > > > with desires !! > > > > > > > > > > Prapati > > > > > -------------------------- -- > -- > > -- > > > - > > > > > > > > > > , " sadhak_insight " > > > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > -Shree Hari- > > > > > > I would very much appreciate any comments or guidance on > my > > > > > thoughts > > > > > > below regarding surrender, > > > > > > I have listed some of the chapters plus a learned comment, > > that > > > > > > formulated my thinking. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > BG 2.7 > > > > > > " Now I am confused about my duty and have lost all > composure > > > > > because > > > > > > of miserly weakness. In this condition I am asking You to > > tell > > > > me > > > > > for > > > > > > certain what is best for me. Now I am Your disciple, and a > > soul > > > > > > surrendered unto You. Please instruct me. " > > > > > > BG 3.3 > > > > > > The Supreme Personality of Godhead said: O sinless Arjuna, > I > > > have > > > > > > already explained that there are two classes of men who > try > > to > > > > > > realize > > > > > > the self. Some are inclined to understand it by empirical, > > > > > > philosophical speculation, and others by devotional > service. > > > > > > > > > > > > A comment on 3.3 > > > > > > The karmi and jnani are different in name only. Actually > > > > persons > > > > > > engaged in karma become pure hearted jnanis by the > actions. > > > And > > > > the > > > > > > jnanis become liberated by bhakti. This is meaning of all > my > > > > words. > > > > > > > > > > > > BG 3.7 > > > > > > On the other hand, if a sincere person tries to control > the > > > > active > > > > > > senses by the mind and begins karma-yoga [in Krishna > > > > consciousness] > > > > > > without attachment, he is by far superior. > > > > > > > > > > > > Surrender:- > > > > > > > > > > > > From my readings it appears that with jnana , ultimately > the > > > > > > aspirant, can hit a brick wall as it were, the mind finds > a > > > > place > > > > > > it cannot proceed beyond. At that point to surrender to > > the > > > > > Divine > > > > > > Lord without reservation, to no longer think in pure logic > > of > > > > the > > > > > > Absolute Truth, and to follow faithfully the path that > opens > > > > > before > > > > > > you with courage. Can open the eyes with wonder, as the > Lord > > > > shows > > > > > > his presence in all that is revealed, how can a soul be > > > anything > > > > > but > > > > > > bhakti, after such a moment of truth? > > > > > > > > > > > > With Respect and Divine Love, > > > > > > > > > > > > Mike > > > > > > (Mike Keenor) > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------ -- > -- > > - > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > GUIDELINES FOR POSTING A RESPONSE: > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. The group is focused on the Holy Gitaji, therefore, > only > > > > > > responses which further clarify the understanding of > Gitaji, > > > > will > > > > > be > > > > > > posted. > > > > > > > > > > > > 2. Making reference of Gitaji shloka is highly encouraged - > > > at > > > > > least > > > > > > once in the response. Wherever possible, please quote > > Gitaji > > > or > > > > > > other scriptures to substantiate your response. > > > > > > > > > > > > 3. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, > > > respecting > > > > > > sadhaka's time. Under no circustance the answer should > > exceed > > > > say > > > > > > one page at the most (500 words or so). > > > > > > > > > > > > 4. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. > to > > > the > > > > > > extent that they further help in understanding the Gita > > shlokas > > > > > > > > > > > > 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only. > > > > > > > > > > > > 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other > > > > > > organizations. > > > > > > > > > > > > 7. Complete reproduction of texts from any book is > strongly > > > > > > discouraged, however references may be made of the book > or > > > > author > > > > > > (but not links to other sites). > > > > > > > > > > > > 8. Kindly do not include your personal information such as > > > phone > > > > > > number, address etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > 9. Please do not address the response to a particular > > > individual > > > > > > since the message is going to the entire group. > > > > > > > > > > > > 10. Due to the large readership, only those responses will > > be > > > > > posted > > > > > > which are in line with the general philosophy of taking > > > Shrimad > > > > > > Bhagavad Gita as the reference. > > > > > > > > > > > > 11. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, > if > > > > > content > > > > > > is unclear for distribution or not directly related to the > > > > > question > > > > > > being asked. > > > > > > > > > > > > 12. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, > > > youth, > > > > > > westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use > of > > > only > > > > > > Sanskrit words, rather provide the English word with > > Sanskrit > > > > > > bracketed wherever possible. > > > > > > > > > > > > MODERATOR > > > > > > Ram Ram > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 11, 2008 Report Share Posted July 11, 2008 Is God Superior? Am I inferior? Should I surrender to God? NO … and, NO … and NO. God is not superior to me and I am not inferior to God. Be careful, I cannot be superior to anything as such since nothing is inferior to God as such because GOD IS EVERYTHING – VASUDEVA SARVAM. Therefore, let me validate my initial statement further … IF I AM NOT SUPERIOR TO ANYTHING THEN I AM NOT INFERIOR TO ANYTHING INCLUDING GOD … else … I am inferior to everything as such because everything else remains God while I am not and therefore I suffer. An attempt to impose a superior position to oneself while actually feeling inferior within is the inferiority complex … an attempt to perceive relative inferiority around to believe self superiority is the superiority complex … in either case, I suffer from being inferior within – in one case I know that I am inferior and in the other case I don't know that I am inferior. One who attains such knowledge (beware! Not information!!) that there is nothing inferior or superior is also GOD as such. Therefore, a true Bhakta/Gnyani/Yogi is verily THE GOD as such. Because, for such a person there is nothing to crave for and nothing to be afraid of: Yastu sarvani bhutani aatmanyevanupashyate | Sarva bhuteshu chaatmaanam tato na vijugupsate || The very fear that I could be inferior binds me to the inferiority driving me to imbibe alien behavior and adapt alien conduct to " appear " superior … sulking away from my true presence with the Universal Absolute devoid of all such alienations of superiority and inferiority. The very desire that I should be superior keeps me inferior driving me to pursue alien objectives and tread alien conduit to " feel " superior … running away from my true presence with the Universal Absolute devoid of all such alienations of superiority and inferiority. Appreciating our fear of inferiority and urge for superiority; acknowledging our ill-placed dependence in the two; understanding the two as the root causes of all our miseries; and realizing that the two were and are nothing but figments of our illusions and hallucinations would eventually force our alien notions of fear and desire to drop away automatically since all the alienating factors that separate any entity from The Absolute are mitigated in the process. Yasmin sarvani bhutani aatmaivabhdvijanatah | Tatra ko mohah kah shokah ekatvamanupashyatah || The process is called SAMARPANA which is often translated as " surrendering " . Again, please note that 1. nobody has no rights to surrender anything since the very notion of owning something which could be possibly surrendered is a fallacy 2. there is nothing to surrender since everything is THAT as such 3. nothing can be surrendered to God because everything is GOD Should we come to this conclusion when logic fails? Should one drop Karma and Gnyana to attain Bhakti? NO. We should again understand the subtle differences between information, logic and knowledge. We should observe the subtle differences between the our activities, work and action. We should appreciate the subtle differences between desires, emotions and devotion. Using sensory evidences toward a logical existence of one's presence is Sankhya. On the other hand, the mere awareness of one's presence is Gnyana. Though the individual awareness is apparently revealed in one's sensory perception, all the perceptions are established within this awareness in reality. But, our focus being driven by our cognitive mechanism hones on the perceptional evidence as reality rather than the substratum from which the very cognition arises and into which the very cognition merges back. Gnyana is in the substratum while Sankhya dwells in the cognitive boundaries. Therefore, all logical deductions should be applied to appreciate one's relativity … not to define The Absolute. Again, no logic can capture Gnyana … and yet, all logic when truthfully pursued point toward the substratum, The Knowledge. The fact is, the cognition is the only mechanism that can help us to appreciate its own limitations, faults and strengths. On one hand it is the ignorance. On the other hand, it is the only weapon that can break the ignorance apart. Therefore, one cannot attain by dropping one's analytical prowess in spiritual progress when one feels frustrated while being unable to penetrate through one's ignorance. Infact, that is when the mechanism is the most useful. If the mechanism is applied properly, it will eventually drop by itself to be with The Knowledge rather than with its playful fun and painful miseries. It should not buckle on any brick wall of ignorance as such. It is also another fallacy that Bhakti raises when this mechanism stops. Anything devoid of Gnyana cannot be Bhakti: Kuru te ganga sagara gamanam vrataparipalanam athava daanam | Gnyanavihinah sarvamatena bhajati muktim janma shatena || Bhaja Gonidam bhaja Govindam Govindam bhaja mudhamate | Samsare sannihite kale nahi nahi rakshati dukrinkarane || Therefore, observation, analysis, appreciation, understanding and realization is part of the tri-fold sadhana – Karma, Gnyana and Bhakti. Again remember … thoughts are NOT KNOWLEDGE … activities are NOT ACTION … emotions are NOT DEVOTION. Thoughts, activities and emotions are alienatied from each other and trapped in ones individual existence while Knowledge, Action and Devotion are UNIVERSAL. Thoughts, activities and emotions are distinctly different. Knowledge, Action and Devotion are unanimously synonymous to each other. Therefore, a Yogi whose activites are merged along The Action is also a Gnyani whose thoughts are merged with The Knowledge and also a Bhakta whose experiences are merged in The Devotion. One without the other would remain mere thoughts or activities or emotions snowballing into ones storage of Vasanas (tendencies) becoming root cause for all our miseries. Respects. Naga Narayana. ------------------------------- , " sadhak_insight " <sadhak_insight wrote: > > Following has been written in commentary to Chapter 18 Verse 61 in > the Gitaji (Verses and their meaning) published by Gita Press. > > Discarding shame, fear, praise and attachment; shedding feeling of > me and mine from the body and the world; accepting God as the sole > shelter, final destiation and every thing; non stop remembering of > God's name, God's virtues, God's influence and God's form with great > reverence, devotion and love; doing all worldly activities and > duties keeping God in mind, as per God's orders/ instructions, > without any worldly attachment and doing every thing only for God. > This is true " Sharanagati " (Surrender to God). > > I have attempted to translate from Hindi to English myself and hence > there may be some difference in the actual intention of the writer. > However, I personally feel that the translation is close to what has > been written. > > A.H.Dalmia > > Naga ji has right understanding of the 'surrender' because self > realization is not an obligation towards anyone else but is about > understanding of the truth. When two people fight over a subject, > and finally an experiment proves the real position where both agree. > For example, in earlier days, some people thought of earth as centre > and sun encircling it, and another people thought just reverse. In > final view, the later proved correct, and everybody accepted it to > the one truth. In exactly similar way, the conflicts within us finds > answer in universal knowledge of self realization and that which is > free from any conflict, is the truth. The mind thus surrenders to > superior most wisdom, and this is surrender to the God. Or in other > words, it is removal of ignorance. > > Sciences are evolved by inquiry into natural phenomena. Scientists, > and even philosophers get satisfied only when their mind is at peace > by correct understanding. They write what they understood so that > errors are removed, and people share the higher wisdom. This truth > of sciences in observed objects or conduct of surrender and people > follow laws discovered in sciences. One step above is Dharma or > knowledge about observer and character rather than conduct. One > step further is beyond the ultimate truth of life cycles and causes > of changes. In these way, surrender is a term for going higher in > ladder of awareness. > > Regards > K G Misra > > > -Shree Hari- > > In referance to the comment by Vyas N B: > > You spoke my life since that point of change. Indeed it is the simple > truth, I at times find it hard to believe the way things have played > out, I just have to accept it with humility. I do mean humility. > I know I am among people with great knowledge of the Bhagavad Gita, > and indeed it seems to have an energy when I read it, even though my > comprehension of it is poor. > The debate goes this way, then that way, " I disagree, I agree " . To me > it is like, in a spiritual sense, a fan swishing over smoldering > coals bringing them to life. > > With respect and Divine Love, > > Mike > (Mike Keenor) > > ------------------------------ > Remember Hindus, there is no " God " in the Gita. " God " is not a Hindu > term. > Class Yoga > > From Moderator : Please suggest other words that represent That > Paramatma > Ram Ram > -------------------------------- > > , " sadhak_insight " > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > Hari Om > > > > Oh! How nice it is to sit together and deliberate! Devotion , the > name God has infinite ways to gladden soul. Consider clarification > of Mike. What he " experienced " was right. Whatever he read was > debated. This is to be noted. Soul knows no barriers. Conscience is > always perfect. Your direct experience is infinite times better than > learning! Gita touches your soul. You are right Mike, the beginning > of spiritual journey does not always involve God being in focus. You > search for the truth and suddenly you get changed - character, > habits, attitude, every thing changes for better. The same world, > the same worldly people start looking different. Your focus shifts > towards looking goodness in others and suddenly you realise there > are people who help without expecting results. They were there in > the past also, Sure. But with change in us they are seen with > clarity. One day, and that day is not far for any determined > aspirant, will come when all around us will be revealed to us as God > and God only! > > > > That revelation in fact is the goal of every human being! > > > > Jai Shree Krishna > > > > Vyas N B > > > > ------------------------------- > > Hari Hari! > > > > I have but two short points. > > > > 1. The issue of whether one can actually surrender to God, as Naga > > Narayana has put the issue, actually pivots around two very > > different conceptions of God and jivas. The spiritual teacher > > (Swami Ramsukdasji) whose disciples host this discussion, it is my > > understanding that he has apparently taught that individuality is > an > > illusion of the material world, and upon liberation, we merge with > > the impersonal Supreme. I come from a line of teaching that > > considers individual identity to be eternal, and that each > > individual has an eternal relationship with the Supreme Personality > > of Godhead. With the second conception, the logic leading to the > > conclusion of surrender and Bhakti is apparent. Generally, I've > > found that those following first line of teaching consider the > > second to be incorrect, and vice versa. I don't really see a > > purpose in debating the point here; actually, I think everyone > > should pursue God in the way that they can believe in, and > > hopefully those of us who are farther can come nearer to God > through > > devotion to our respective paths. > > > > 2. I mainly use a translation of the Bhagavad Gita that is well > > respected by religious studies departments and sanskrit scholars > > throughout the world, what to speak of Vaishnava religious > > authorities. The translator comes from an established line of > > teachers, and in his life he was an exemplary devotee: A.C. > > Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. It is readily available online with > > sanskrit, word-by-word translations. I have not referred > > to other's translations as possessing a " serious limitation, " but > > rather have accepted your respected teacher's translations because > I > > know they are sacred to you. > > > > This is a very nice opportunity to learn about different > conceptions > > of God, and to use important questions (like that of surrender) to > > delve deeper into our own philosophies. I hope it can be done > > respectfully, now that we are aware of our philosophical > > differences. I think there is still much held in common. > > > > Hare Krishna, > > Hannah Sandal > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > How about saying surrender to ALMIGHTY who controls OUR Natural > > Habitat including Environmemt and Human Evolution itself? > > > > Mohan K Muju > > > > ------------------------------- > > , " sadhak_insight " > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > > > What is " surrendering " ? > > > > > > Samarpana – Bhakti – God > > > > > > No one can " surrender " to God. If something receives your > > > surrenderance, then it is NOT God. Surrendering involves two > > > distinct parties – one superior and the other inferior, both > being > > > limited owing to their mutually exclusive distinction from each > > > other. One who surrenders is not a Bhakta and one who is > > surrendered > > > to is not God either. One who surrenders is at worst a slave and > > one > > > who receives a surrenderer is at best a king. Note that both a > > slave > > > and a king are nothing but slaves – individuals with no freedom. > > > Note that all the distinctions are arased between a Bhakta and > > God. > > > The very meaning of Bhakti is the mitigation of all alienation of > > a > > > person with ereference to God. The Bhakta is as liberated as The > > God > > > as such due to the lack of all alienating notions between the > two. > > > Therefore, the very term " surrender " is a fallacy in spiritual > > > practice because the word has the popular cannotation of " giving > > > away something " or " sacrificing something " as if by force or by > no > > > other choice. > > > > > > The sanskrit term " Samarpana " is often referred to as " to > > surrender " > > > since that is probably the best english word available. " Arpana " > > > means denying ownership of something; " samarpana " is denying the > > > very ownership in all respects – in actions, in thoughts as well > > as > > > in desires. The very denial is the only route to mitigate the > > > differences between subject and object, objects and objects, and > > God > > > and objects. All the distinctions between God, subject and > objects > > > are rooted in the perceived notion of ownership as such. > Observing > > > the illusive and evasive nature of one's ego to hang on to one or > > > the other ownership, understanding the mythical unreality in all > > > such notions, and realizing that all our miseries are in fact > > rooted > > > in such notions as such is the sound process of purging all the > > > notions of ownership within to liberate oneself to merge with the > > > Universal Reality with no constraints or conditions of any kind. > > > Therefore, " samarpana " is the path of devotion to reach the > > Absolute > > > Freedom. There is nothing given up in samarpana. There is nothing > > > transacted in samarpana. There is nothing attained in samarpana. > > Not > > > seeking to give up, transact and attain is called Bhakti. > > > > > > If surrendering is understood synanymous with samarpana, the very > > > act is the only Knowledge. Anything else is just information. The > > > Bhakti (Samarpana) is the very Karma (The Act). The Karma is the > > > very Gnyana (The Knowledge). Thinking that the mind is the the > > > domain of knowledge is a huge misnomer. Understanding that the > > mind > > > is part of knowledge and knowledge is not part of mind is the > true > > > knowledge. That is the true surrender (samarpana) from mind's > > > perspective. A Samarpita Manas (truly surrendered mind) is The > God > > > as such where the notion of surrendering never raises again. A > > > samarpita manas cannot face any kind of " brick walls " – removing > > all > > > such obstacles is the role of logic (informational analysis – > > > Sankhya); NOT to create one! I would not agree that if somebody > > > believes to be in Bhakti when one cannot think further as Para > > > Bhakti. Para Bhakti incorporates proactive understanding (karma- > > > purita-gnyana) and realized acitivities (Gnyana-purita-karma). > The > > > verses quoted by Mr. Keenor often tend to project variant notions > > > regarding Karma, Gnyana and Bhakti – but, only in their isolated > > > context. As I understand, Bhagavad Gita cannot create any such > > > isolation. Everything is THAT alone in all respects though they > > may > > > appear as variant within one's perception. Breaking the barriers > > of > > > such perceptional isolation within one's mind is the role of the > > > logical observation (Sankhya). Sankhya cannot bring Gnyana – > logic > > > in any form cannot bring Knowledge. Sankhya becomes Gnyana in its > > > purity. So does the Karma. So does the Bhakti. > > > > > > Tasyai tapo damah karmeti pratishtha – the Shraddha incorporating > > > focussed knowledge, controled desire and guided action is the > > > foundation for Samarpana. > > > > > > Vedah sarvangani – all the sources of perception (understanding > > all > > > perceptions to be as such without any trace of ownership) is the > > > domain of Samarpana. > > > > > > Satyamayatanam – to be The Truth, The Absolute, The Peace, The > > Bliss > > > … to be ONE is THE SAMARPANA. > > > > > > Therefore, I canot agree that TRUE SURRENDER (THE SAMARPANA) can > > > raise out of an incapable mind. It is the state of a very capable > > > mind. > > > > > > Respects. > > > > > > Naga Narayana. > > > ------------------------------ -- > > > > > > Re Sadhak Hannah's views > > > > > > I am indeed touched by the fact that inspite of the very serious > > > limitation of the translations of the verses adopted by you, some > > of > > > the conclusions arrived at by you were exceptionally accurate. > You > > > may indeed call that grace of God and power and glory of Gita and > > of > > > your devotion to God. . > > > > > > However let me tell you that had you had at your disposal > English > > > Edition of Saadhak Sanjeevani written by Swamiji Ramsukhdasji > > > Maharaj , the entire interpretations of the verses would have > > taken > > > a divine shape. > > > > > > For example what you called as " regulative principles of Bhakti > > > Yoga " is in fact " constant practice of (chanting etc) divine > > name > > > with equanimity having God as the aim " in 12:9 ! > > > > > > 12:10 would have read - > > > > > > " If you are unable to practice as above , be thou intent on > > > performing ordained actions for Me , thus doing self less actions > > > for my sake, thou shalt achieve perfection " > > > > > > The knowledge referred in Ch 12:12 is not Jnana Yoga in > entirety. > > > Here knowledge means mainly reading of scriptures, having > interest > > > in what is body, nature,self etc only and merely knowing ( not > > > realising or experiencing completely) that you are separate from > > > your body etc- in other words in very limited sense only ( as > > there > > > is no yoga -equanimity attached with that). Here in > > 12:12 " practice " > > > referred is mere practice not " practice with equanimity having > God > > > as aim " referred in 12:9 !! > > > > > > Similarly there is a difference between " practice with > Equanimity > > > (abhyaas yogen)with keeping God as aim " referred in 12:9 and > > > mere " practice " referred in 12:10 (abhyaasepyasamartho) etc etc. > > > > > > > > > Similarly 12:12 does not entirely refer Karma Yoga but only one > > > portion of that viz renunciation of fruits Karma Yoga is not > > wholly > > > and exclusively renunciation of fruits only!. Here > > > actually " renunciation " (tyaag) is more glorified > > than " renunciation > > > with equanimity " . > > > > > > Thus, Here in 12:12 an eternal principle gets revealed - " every > > > renunciation results in instant peace " - > > > > > > " tyagatchhantimanantaram " > > > > > > Now this principle is applicable in every department of life, > > > everywhere universally! > > > > > > Differences are subtle but when you practice or implement or try > > to > > > grasp they become extremely relevant and almost touch your soul. > > > After all these verses are the voice of God ! ! Gita is a mirror, > > as > > > is your attitude so does it look ! ! > > > > > > Hence I agree with you that there is a need of a perfect > > translation > > > of these verses. They make sea of a difference.Here there is > > > importance of writer! > > > > > > Jai Shree Krishna > > > > > > Vyas N B > > > > > > ------------------------------ -- > - > > > Hare Krishna > > > > > > Re Sadhak Mike " s Query > > > > > > As mentioned in the verses below, there are two kinds of > > devotional > > > service: the way of regulative principles and the way of full > > > attachment in love to the Supreme Personality of Godhead. For > > those > > > who are actually not able to follow the principles of Krishna > > > consciousness it is better to cultivate knowledge, because by > > > knowledge one can be able to understand his real position. > > Gradually > > > knowledge will develop to the point of meditation. By meditation > > one > > > can be able to understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead by a > > > gradual process. There are processes which make one understand > > that > > > one himself is the Supreme, and that sort of meditation is > > preferred > > > if one is unable to engage in devotional service. If one is not > > able > > > to meditate in such a way, then there are prescribed duties, as > > > enjoined in the Vedic literature, for the Brahmanas, Ksatriyas, > > > Vaisyas and Sudras, which we shall find in the last chapter of > > > Bhagavad-Gita. But in all cases, one should give up the result or > > > fruits of labor; this means to employ the result of karma for > some > > > good cause. > > > > > > In summary, to reach the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the > > highest > > > goal, there are two processes: one process is by gradual > > > development, and the other process is direct. Devotional service > > in > > > Krishna consciousness is the direct method, and the other method > > > involves renouncing the fruits of one's activities. Then one can > > > come to the stage of knowledge, then to the stage of meditation, > > > then to the stage of understanding the Supersoul, and then to the > > > stage of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. One may take either > > the > > > step-by-step process or the direct path. The direct process is > not > > > possible for everyone; therefore the indirect process is also > > good. > > > It is, however, to be understood that the indirect process is not > > > recommended for Arjuna, because he is already at the stage of > > loving > > > devotional service to the Supreme Lord. It is for others, who are > > > not at this stage; for them the gradual process of renunciation, > > > knowledge, meditation and realization of the Supersoul and > Brahman > > > should be followed. But as far as Bhagavad-Gita is concerned, it > > is > > > the direct method that is stressed. Everyone is advised to take > to > > > the direct method and surrender unto the Supreme Personality of > > > Godhead, Krishna > > > > > > Your Servant > > > > > > Janardhana Dasa > > > > > > ------------------------------ -- > -- > > > > > > Dear friends > > > Vyas ji has ideas on Karma and Zyan and Bhakti and Yoga. In the > > > Bhagwat Gita, these are soul of understanding. I will try to > > explain > > > it in the following way: > > > > > > Take example of person(s) going from Delhi to Mumbai. In this > > > journey of self realization, everyone is in an act of loneliness, > > > birth and death in cycles after cycles, and wants to realize > truth > > > about him/herself. And when this destination is fixed, YOGA > > starts. > > > YOGA is placing one on a path of self realization. > > > > > > When an individual starts journey in search of truth, he does it > > by > > > his/her natural instinct whatever it is. This knowledge of the > > > swabhaav is called ZYAN. Because this ZYAN is directed to (YOGA) > > the > > > path of self realization, it is called ZYAN YOGA. Has this ZYAN > > been > > > is not in a direction of self realization, that would be VISHAYA. > > > > > > By knowing the swbhaav, when individual works this is called > > KARMA. > > > At every new milestone, the swbhaav gets more pure, and this is > > > called KARMA YOGA. But when individual does not know his/her > > > swbhaav and works not in the direction of self realization, this > > is > > > VYAVSAYA (from Vishaya). > > > > > > When an individual is working all alone and reaches a stage of > > self > > > realization, this is ZYAN YOGA and KARMA YOGA. In Buddhist > > > tradition, this way is called HINAYAN (small vehicle). It has > > > advantage because an individual follows TAPAH (endurance), and > > > learns by mistakes, and quite clear in mind. In earlier periods, > > all > > > Yogis used to stay alone and meditate in forests. Krishna is > > Himself > > > this example. > > > > > > In case when an individual finds another soul, and joined with > it, > > > this togetherness is called BHAKTI. And when the people in group > > > work and knowing right way, this is called BHAKTI YOGA. Buddhist > > > called it MAHA YAN (large vehicle). In this case, if Bhakti is > > with > > > right Guru, the individual keeps following and reaches > > destination. > > > This is BHAKTI YOGA and KARMA YOGA. The ZYAN YOGA is there but > not > > > relevant because the right path of GURU is enough. SoorDas and > > > TulsiDas are example of saints who never lived in forests and > > never > > > fought war like Arjun, and they by their mind only followed Ram > > and > > > Krishna. Zyan is there but not has any effect. It is like > > milistones > > > (Kota, Baroda) falling on the way from Delhi to Mumbai, and the > > > passenger like TulsiDas never get it noticed. > > > > > > Arjun is the one who is together with Krishna (BHAKTI YOGA). He > > got > > > explanation of every stage in the journey of self realization or > > > self transformation to truth (ZYAN YOGA), and had to fight a war > > > like living in dangerous forest (tapah, endurance) and staying at > > > course is KARMA YOGA. All three. > > > > > > Buddha says same thing in other words > > > Buddham Sharam Gachhami = " Go " to Truth (Karma YOGA) > > > Dhamman sharnam Gachhami'= by following your " self nature " (Zyan > > > YOGA) > > > Sangham sharnam Gachhami = go " together " (Bhakti YOGA) > > > > > > > > > Best regards > > > K G > > > (Krishna Gopal) > > > ----------------------------- > > > > > > -Shree Hari- > > > > > > Clarification: > > > > > > The comment on BG 3.3 was not mine but was on the Bhagavad Gita I > > was > > > reading on line. Thus of course this does not change the wisdom > of > > > the > > > comments posted. > > > Surrender comment was based on personal experience, (and that of > > > the man I met in strange circumstances). We both had one thing in > > > common and that was to find the truth, (spiritual truth, not > > > necessarily God focussed). > > > I can only speak from my heart, (he has his own journey). But one > > > reached a point where every perception one had fell away. A state > > of > > > absolute bewilderment. Of course I know now that the brick wall > > was > > > my > > > own ignorance. But I did then realize that I needed Divine help. > > > The early Chapters that I have read seem to be around these > > thoughts > > > of mine. > > > I have also learned that character change does happen. One does > > help > > > others without wanting for reward, in fact being at one with > those > > > that suffer. And of course always the intellect, but not so > > blinded > > > by > > > the ego, knowing ultimately there is GOD. > > > This seems to fit in general with the comments, have read. > > > I know there is much for me to learn. > > > > > > With respects and Divine Love. > > > > > > Mike Keenor > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ -- > -- > > - > > > , " sadhak_insight " > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Hari Om > > > > > > > > Re Sadhak Mike " s Query > > > > > > > > Let us now talk about surrender. Your 2nd learned comment is > > > indeed > > > > soul touching and is almost perfect. However as stated in > > previous > > > > episode the Bhakti Yoga is independent and therefore the > > surrender > > > > doesnot begin when the limitation of mind is realised. It is a > > > > principle that mind and intellect cannot reach God because both > > > are > > > > part of Nature (Prakrati) and God is beyond the Nature. > > However > > > > you can always change the focus ( direction) of mind and > > intellect > > > > from the world to the God. That in itself is more than > > sufficient. > > > > > > > > Bhakti Yoga begins with the outlook - " I am of the God and > only > > > God > > > > is mine, and nobody else is mine " and attains perfection when > > you > > > > start seeing/ experiencing presence of God everywhere. Read > > > > carefully the process differences given by me in the previous > > > > edition. There are dozens or more such differences but due to > > > space > > > > constraints I have given briefly. They are really important > > from > > > > spiritual practice point of view. > > > > > > > > From your second comment it has been revealed to me that you > > have > > > > set the goal for yourself to feel the presence of God > > everywhere. > > > > Believe me that goal is perfect- It is ultimate and real Bhakti > > > Yoga- > > > > let me tell you. " VASUDEVAH SARVAM " – All this is God (Gita > > > 7:19) > > > > is the final conclusion of Gita and the surrender is the > > ultimate > > > > weapon which an aspirant has in his spiritual journey- there is > > no > > > > doubt on these two. In fact Gita begins with surrender ( BG 2:7 > > > > quoted by you too) and ends with surrender (18:66). > > > > > > > > God starts conversation talking about " WORRYING " to Arjuna ( > > 2:11) > > > > and ends his conversation telling Arjuna not to worry( 18:66). > > I > > > > would suggest you read " Saadhak Sanjeevani " a Treatise on Gita > > by > > > > Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj, the English Edition of which is > > also > > > > there. That will solve translation confusions of the verses > > > forever > > > > for you and it is so vast, comprehensive and clear that merely > > by > > > > reading you may change your perceptions and it shall enthuse > you > > > in > > > > your journey in a miraculous manner. If I get address I may > > ensure > > > > you get latest copy of the same by post. In my eyes it is an > > > > essential commentary and the ULTIMATE ON GITA. No other > > detailed > > > > commentary has the depth of cross reference and can even be a > > > > semblance of it- it is my experience. It is the best on the > > > subject, > > > > written by a God realised soul exclusively to help aspirants > > only. > > > > > > > > Hope I have been able to provide clarity. Everything which I > > write > > > > is from the books and discourses of Swamiji only. Only the > > > > translation or presentation is mine. Pls do write if you need > > > more > > > > clarification . > > > > > > > > Jai Shree Krishna > > > > > > > > Vyas N B > > > > ---------------------------- -- > -- > > -- > > > > , " sadhak_insight " > > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hari Hari! > > > > > In considering this current conversation, I looked to chapter > > > > twelve > > > > > of the Gita, entitled " Devotional Service " . Please forgive my > > > > > quoting of several verses: > > > > > > > > > > 12.6-7 But those who worship Me, giving up all their > > activities > > > > > unto Me and being devoted to Me without deviation, engaged in > > > > > devotional service and always meditating upon Me, having > fixed > > > > their > > > > > minds upon Me, O son of Pritha for them I am the swift > > deliverer > > > > > from the ocean of birth and death. > > > > > > > > > > BG 12.8: Just fix your mind upon Me, the Supreme Personality > > of > > > > > Godhead, and engage all your intelligence in Me. Thus you > will > > > > live > > > > > in Me always, without a doubt. > > > > > > > > > > BG 12.9: My dear Arjuna, O winner of wealth, if you cannot > fix > > > > your > > > > > mind upon Me without deviation, then follow the regulative > > > > > principles of bhakti-yoga. In this way develop a desire to > > > attain > > > > Me. > > > > > > > > > > BG 12.10: If you cannot practice the regulations of bhakti- > > yoga, > > > > > then just try to work for Me, because by working for Me you > > will > > > > > come to the perfect stage. > > > > > > > > > > BG 12.11: If, however, you are unable to work in this > > > > consciousness > > > > > of Me, then try to act giving up all results of your work and > > > try > > > > to > > > > > be self-situated. > > > > > > > > > > BG 12.12: If you cannot take to this practice, then engage > > > > yourself > > > > > in the cultivation of knowledge. Better than knowledge, > > however, > > > > is > > > > > meditation, and better than meditation is renunciation of the > > > > fruits > > > > > of action, for by such renunciation one can attain peace of > > mind. > > > > > > > > > > Here, Krishna outlines the options available to us, and > > > encourages > > > > > them to pursue them to the best of our ability. He says that > > > > > cultivation of knolwedge (JYoga) and renunciation of the > > fruits > > > > of > > > > > action (KYoga) are both beneficial on the path towards > > > liberation > > > > > because they help us develop a " desire to attain " God. We can > > > use > > > > > our intelliegence to understand the philosophy of God, and we > > > > > can use our ability to renounce to practice controlling our > > > mind. > > > > > Bhakti yoga provides principles to practice loving service to > > > God. > > > > > We can see in 12.6-7 that the goal of all of this is to be > > 100% > > > > > fixed in a relationship of devotional service with the > Supreme > > > > Lord. > > > > > It is at this point that God provides liberation to those who > > > are > > > > > devoted to him. > > > > > > > > > > One final note, is that we are perhaps working from different > > > > > translations. I am of the opinion that each person should > > study > > > > the > > > > > authors of the translations, and the quality of different > > > > > translations, and find the one that is most in line with > their > > > own > > > > > purposes. The differences arise from the difference between > > > > > English and Sanskrit: there are words in Sanskrit that have > > many > > > > > meanings, and these meanings are dependant upon grammar, > > > spelling, > > > > > and context. Translation into English is not always > > > > straightforward, > > > > > and frequently depends upon the background and purpose of the > > > > > translator. You'll find, for example, a very different > > > translation > > > > > of the Gita used for learning Sanskrit in American > > universities. > > > > > > > > > > your servant, > > > > > H. Sandal > > > > > (Hannah Sandal) > > > > > -------------------------- > > > > > Dear Sadhakas, Namaste! > > > > > > > > > > The essence of the verses mentioned by Mike Keenor has been > > > > captured > > > > > in his own words. > > > > > > > > > > I would like to suggest, however, that we don't need to > > consider > > > > any > > > > > one path being superior to other paths toward Self-God > > > > Realization. > > > > > If Self-God realization were to mean freedom from sorrows and > > to > > > > > live in unconditional Love serving all, it is all the more > > > > important > > > > > to see all paths being equal even if they differ in their > > > > > approaches. If the ultimate results are the same, there is no > > > need > > > > > to compare any paths as being superior or inferior. Krishnaji > > > may > > > > > have said only to emphasize that all can attain such freedom > > > even > > > > if > > > > > they are not prone to one or the other paths. > > > > > > > > > > We need to see that God is not separate from such a Gyani, or > > > > Karma- > > > > > Yogi or Devotee! Gita says God is Devotion in Bhakta, Truth- > > > Being- > > > > > Self in Gyani and self-less actions in Karm-Yogi. Ultimately > > > that > > > > is > > > > > what happens to Bhakta(Devotee), Karma-Yogi(person of > selfless > > > > > action), and Gyani(Self-realized). > > > > > > > > > > Some of us are naturally inclined to do Karmas! To make their > > > > Karmas > > > > > not binding and yet serve those who are in need, Gita > > prescribes > > > > the > > > > > Karma-Yoga meaning self-less actions. > > > > > > > > > > By performing actions without assuming doership, guided by > > > > > righteousness, frees one from Bondage due to karmas. Unless > > one > > > > has > > > > > total devotion while performing actions and total surrender > of > > > > > results to God, one just cannot do such self-less actions. > > Thus > > > > > Karma-Yogi is also doing Bhakti, leading to freedom(moksha) > > from > > > > > sorrows. He will eventually realize his true nature being > Sat- > > > Chit- > > > > > Ananda(Supreme Consciousness, not an individual). > > > > > > > > > > In the same way one who is given to inquiry, is a Truth > > Seeker. > > > > > He/She will in time become Truth Lover by seeking nothing but > > > > Truth. > > > > > Upon experiencing glimpses of truth in daily life, the > > devotion > > > to > > > > > Truth becomes intense. So again such a truth lover is also > > > devotee- > > > > > bhakta of Truth, same as God and then attains knowledge of > who > > > > > he/she is in reality and thus perfection! > > > > > > > > > > In my experience, one just doesn't follow only one path, > > rather > > > > one > > > > > integrates all such paths and God given resoureces! As we all > > > > know, > > > > > no one can remain without actions, and all of us have quality > > of > > > > > devotion at least in something we do! > > > > > > > > > > In the times we are living at present, it is more appropriate > > to > > > > > perform Karmas with the best of one's ability to serve > > humanity, > > > > > assuming no-doership thereof and to accept or rather welcome > > > > results > > > > > of such actions. This will automatically leads one to wonder > > and > > > > > inquire about the nature of God, world, and oneself. Upon > > > > > contemplation of all three, one will realize the truth of > them > > > and > > > > > eventually get established in True Self. Out of such > knowledge > > > one > > > > > becomes a mystic, so to speak, and his/her existence is > > aligned > > > > with > > > > > Totality or wholeness of Being in which individuality is > > > absorbed. > > > > > God is just the name to such Experience of Being everything, > > > which > > > > > is Absolute Existence and thus Ananda. > > > > > > > > > > Namaskars...Pratap > > > > > (Pratap Bhatt) > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------- -- > -- > > -- > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " sadhak_insight " > > > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Hari Om > > > > > > > > > > > > You have sought comments on certain verses of Gita dealing > > > with > > > > > > Jnana Yoga (JY) , Karma Yoga (KY) and Bhakti Yoga (BY) and > > on > > > > two > > > > > > learned comments, that formulated your thinking. I shall > > > briefly > > > > > > take you through the best on the subject to impart total > > > > clarity. > > > > > > The answer shall be in minimum two installments of one page > > > > each, > > > > > > maximum three. > > > > > > > > > > > > First Bhagavad Gita 3:3. The correct translation of the > > verse > > > is > > > > > as > > > > > > under - " O Sinless Arjuna, in this world a two fold path > > > has > > > > > been > > > > > > enunciated by Me before, the Path of Knowledge (Jnana Yoga > > or > > > > > > Sankhya Yoga) for men of renunciation and the Path of > > Action > > > > for > > > > > > men of action (Karma Yoga) " . > > > > > > > > > > > > The correct translation of BG 3:7 is - " But he who controls > > > his > > > > > > senses through the mind, O Arjuna, and engages himself in > > the > > > > path > > > > > > of action, with the organs of action and sense, without > > being > > > > > > attached, is superior. " > > > > > > > > > > > > Your comment that - " The karmi and jnani are different in > > name > > > > > only. > > > > > > Actually, persons engaged in karma become pure hearted > > jnanis > > > by > > > > > > their actions. And the jnanis become liberated by > bhakti. " - > > > > > > can > > > > > > not be said to be entirely correct. Because it pre suposses > > > that > > > > > the > > > > > > outcome or the end result of these exercises is " purity of > > > > heart " > > > > > > while actually the end result of both of them > > is " liberation " . > > > > > > Further the comment that they are different names only is > > > right > > > > > from > > > > > > only end result perspective and certainly not from the > > process > > > > > > followed by them and by the attitude of a Jnana Yogi and a > > > Karma > > > > > > Yogi. (Refer last para of this edition). Secondly this > > comment > > > > > > presumes that Bhakti is necessary for liberation, but > > actually > > > > > > Bhakti gets you ever increasing love of God in addition to > > > > > > liberation. Your translation also of the verse does not > > bring > > > > out > > > > > > Karma Yoga clearly and gets rather tilted towards bhakti > > when > > > > you > > > > > > refer devotional service. Here are some good revelations. > > > > > > > > > > > > In this verse the term " loke " stands for " in this world " . > > > Here > > > > > only > > > > > > two yogas (paths) have been described, not three. Bhakti > > Yoga > > > > is > > > > > > absent here. Reason is that while Jnana Yoga and Karma > Yoga > > > > > > are " laukik " (worldly – beliefs/paths to be practiced in > > > > relation > > > > > to > > > > > > the world and worldly things), the Bhakti Yoga > > is " alaukik " > > > > > > (beyond this world - divine, special path, a belief/path to > > be > > > > > > practiced in relation to God). Refer also discussion below > > > > dealing > > > > > > with perishable/imperishable - both of which elements are > > > > worldly > > > > > > only. > > > > > > > > > > > > The term " nishtha " stands for Equanimity, which can be > > either > > > > > > attained through the path of knowledge or through path of > > > > action. > > > > > > (There is very little need of equanimity in fact in Bhakti > > > > Yoga) – > > > > > > Refer distinction made by God in Gita 2:39. > > > > > > > > > > > > Corresponding to these two paths there are two types of > > > purushas > > > > > > (men) – Gita 15:16 – one Akshar (Immortal self) and > > > two " Kshar " > > > > > > (mortal world). To remain equanimous in success or failure, > > or > > > > > > profits or losses (dualities) etc. of the perishable is > > Karma > > > > > Yoga, > > > > > > while having disinclination for the perishable and being > > > > > established > > > > > > in imperishable (self) is Sankhya or Jnana Yoga. But above > > > these > > > > > two > > > > > > there is the Supreme Person who is beyond the perishable, > > > and > > > > is > > > > > > superior to the imperishable, called as Paramatma (God) in > > the > > > > > > scriptures and Veda (Gita 15:18). Thus a whole hearted > > > surrender > > > > > to > > > > > > God, is called Discipline of Devotion (Bhakti Yoga). In > > Karma > > > > Yoga > > > > > > there is predominance of perishable, in Sankhya Yoga there > > is > > > > > > predominance of imperishable and in Bhakti Yoga there is > > > > > > predominance of God. > > > > > > > > > > > > The state of " nishtha " (Equanimity) can be attained by > > > strivers, > > > > > > either through knowledge or through Action, but > > identification > > > > > with > > > > > > the God, is not their own (nishtha). In Sankhya state, > > > strivers > > > > > > experience distinctly, the existence of their own selves, > as > > > > well > > > > > > as, that of the world and try to cut asunder the affinity > > for > > > > the > > > > > > world. A Karma Yogi offers to the world, everything > > (including > > > > > even > > > > > > his body), that he has derived from it and removes affinity > > > > from > > > > > > the world. In this way both of them get established in > their > > > > true > > > > > > form – the self. > > > > > > > > > > > > Neither think others as evil doers, nor wish evil to others > > > nor > > > > do > > > > > > evil to others- with this outlook " Karma Yoga " begins. > > Nothing > > > > is > > > > > > mine, I need nothing and I have to do nothing for myself – > > by > > > > > > accepting this truth " Jnana (Sankhya) Yoga " begins. > > > > > > > > > > > > The beauty is that in both the paths of JY and KY there is > > no > > > > need > > > > > > of even thinking about/ focusing/ accepting the existence > of > > > God > > > > > at > > > > > > all. Both JYs and KYs get liberated easily without even > > > > imagining > > > > > > about God. It is only in BY that God comes into picture > > right > > > > from > > > > > > beginning. In both JY and KY the God is optional not at all > > > > > > compulsory even upto the final stage. > > > > > > > > > > > > You, Mike has presumed an order of KY first, then JY and > > then > > > BY > > > > > as > > > > > > the last. Gita does not to that view. In Gita it > > is > > > > JY, > > > > > > then KY (superior to JY) and then BY (best ). However all > > > three > > > > > are > > > > > > Independent ways of liberation. If you are determined then > > > you > > > > > need > > > > > > not take another or additional route to continue your > > journey, > > > > > > unless when you want love of God also. All three get you > > > > > > liberation. > > > > > > > > > > > > The aforesaid orders therefore are from comfort point of > > view > > > > only. > > > > > > > > > > > > Now coming to how they are different from process point of > > > view. > > > > > In > > > > > > JY you use your power of " knowing " , in KY your power > > > of " doing " > > > > > and > > > > > > in BY your power of belief/acceptance. In JY your > conscience > > > is > > > > > the > > > > > > guiding force, in KY it is action and in BY it is emotions > > of > > > > > > faith/belief. In JY you depend upon self, in KY upon duty > > and > > > in > > > > > BY > > > > > > upon God. In JY you renounce ego, in KY " desires " and in BY > > > the > > > > > > mineness with the world. In JY you eliminate ego, in KY you > > > > > > modify/purify ego and in BY you change your ego. In JY you > > > > become > > > > > > equal to God, in KY near to God and in BY indivisible with > > > God. > > > > A > > > > > JY > > > > > > is useful to himself, a KY is useful to the world and a BY > > to > > > > the > > > > > > God. In JY your desire to " know something " is extinguished, > > in > > > > > > KY " to do something " and in BY to get something. In JY you > > > > > renounce > > > > > > the doership first, in KY you renounce the " enjoyership " > and > > > in > > > > BY > > > > > > you renounce the " mineness " with the worldly people. In JY > > you > > > > get > > > > > > pleased by self, in KY by seeing others happy, in BY by > > making > > > > God > > > > > > happy.In JY you don't do anything, in KY you do for others > > > only > > > > > and > > > > > > in BY you do for God. In JY you surrender the things to > > > Nature, > > > > in > > > > > > KY to the world and in BY to the God.In JY obstacle is your > > > ego > > > > > and > > > > > > body, in KY obstacle is your attachment with worldly > > pleasures > > > > and > > > > > > in BY the obstacle is remaining away from God. In JY your > > > karmas > > > > > get > > > > > > burnt, in KY they become " akarmas " (fruitless) and in BY > > they > > > > > > become " divya " ( divine). In JY you don't desire anything > > from > > > > > > anyone, in KY you fulfil desires of others and in BY you > > merge > > > > > your > > > > > > desires into the desire of God. In JY you don't consider > > > anyone > > > > to > > > > > > be " mine " , in KY all in the world are yours but for > > selfless > > > > > > service only, and in BY only God is yours. > > > > > > > > > > > > Balance in next edition. > > > > > > > > > > > > Jai Shree Krishna > > > > > > > > > > > > Vyas N B > > > > > > ------------------------ -- > -- > > -- > > > -- > > > > -- > > > > > > It is very interesting to read your teachings ! I > personally > > > > feel > > > > > > that if one can use the ' INDRIYAS' as tools, ( The > sensory > > > > > > organs ) then, one uses the eyes to its fullest - which > > means > > > > that > > > > > > the job of the eyes is only to report - see and report - > > but, > > > we > > > > > > then remember that all the further decisions are made by > the > > > > atma > > > > > or > > > > > > the self which is the life - and if this self is manifested > > > with > > > > > > desires - it does not follow the righteous path, then the > > eyes > > > > are > > > > > > not to blame for reporting ! The BG is the best tool which > > > > teaches > > > > > > us how to use these indriyas to our betterment - not to > > > > > destruction > > > > > > with desires !! > > > > > > > > > > > > Prapati > > > > > > ------------------------ -- > -- > > -- > > > -- > > > > - > > > > > > > > > > > > , " sadhak_insight " > > > > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -Shree Hari- > > > > > > > I would very much appreciate any comments or guidance on > > my > > > > > > thoughts > > > > > > > below regarding surrender, > > > > > > > I have listed some of the chapters plus a learned > comment, > > > that > > > > > > > formulated my thinking. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > BG 2.7 > > > > > > > " Now I am confused about my duty and have lost all > > composure > > > > > > because > > > > > > > of miserly weakness. In this condition I am asking You to > > > tell > > > > > me > > > > > > for > > > > > > > certain what is best for me. Now I am Your disciple, and > a > > > soul > > > > > > > surrendered unto You. Please instruct me. " > > > > > > > BG 3.3 > > > > > > > The Supreme Personality of Godhead said: O sinless > Arjuna, > > I > > > > have > > > > > > > already explained that there are two classes of men who > > try > > > to > > > > > > > realize > > > > > > > the self. Some are inclined to understand it by > empirical, > > > > > > > philosophical speculation, and others by devotional > > service. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A comment on 3.3 > > > > > > > The karmi and jnani are different in name only. > Actually > > > > > persons > > > > > > > engaged in karma become pure hearted jnanis by the > > actions. > > > > And > > > > > the > > > > > > > jnanis become liberated by bhakti. This is meaning of all > > my > > > > > words. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > BG 3.7 > > > > > > > On the other hand, if a sincere person tries to control > > the > > > > > active > > > > > > > senses by the mind and begins karma-yoga [in Krishna > > > > > consciousness] > > > > > > > without attachment, he is by far superior. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Surrender:- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From my readings it appears that with jnana , ultimately > > the > > > > > > > aspirant, can hit a brick wall as it were, the mind finds > > a > > > > > place > > > > > > > it cannot proceed beyond. At that point to surrender to > > > the > > > > > > Divine > > > > > > > Lord without reservation, to no longer think in pure > logic > > > of > > > > > the > > > > > > > Absolute Truth, and to follow faithfully the path that > > opens > > > > > > before > > > > > > > you with courage. Can open the eyes with wonder, as the > > Lord > > > > > shows > > > > > > > his presence in all that is revealed, how can a soul be > > > > anything > > > > > > but > > > > > > > bhakti, after such a moment of truth? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > With Respect and Divine Love, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mike > > > > > > > (Mike Keenor) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------- -- > -- > > -- > > > - > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > GUIDELINES FOR POSTING A RESPONSE: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. The group is focused on the Holy Gitaji, therefore, > > only > > > > > > > responses which further clarify the understanding of > > Gitaji, > > > > > will > > > > > > be > > > > > > > posted. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2. Making reference of Gitaji shloka is highly > encouraged - > > > > > at > > > > > > least > > > > > > > once in the response. Wherever possible, please quote > > > Gitaji > > > > or > > > > > > > other scriptures to substantiate your response. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, > > > > respecting > > > > > > > sadhaka's time. Under no circustance the answer should > > > exceed > > > > > say > > > > > > > one page at the most (500 words or so). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 4. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. > > to > > > > the > > > > > > > extent that they further help in understanding the Gita > > > shlokas > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or > other > > > > > > > organizations. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 7. 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Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, > > if > > > > > > content > > > > > > > is unclear for distribution or not directly related to > the > > > > > > question > > > > > > > being asked. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 12. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, > > > > youth, > > > > > > > westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use > > of > > > > only > > > > > > > Sanskrit words, rather provide the English word with > > > Sanskrit > > > > > > > bracketed wherever possible. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > MODERATOR > > > > > > > Ram Ram > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 12, 2008 Report Share Posted July 12, 2008 Jai Shri Krishna, 'Sharanagati' (Surrender) & 'Samarpan' (offering) are two altogether different terms. Sharanagati is of Self and Surrender is of things separate from Self. " Sharanagati " is " Self " related and " Samarpan " is " worldly things " related. We surrender our Karma to the God. A Sharnagat Devotee firmly believes that I am God's and God is mine. A Sharanagat devotee with such a FIRM belief then surrenders himself along with offering (Samarpan) all 'so called his things' to the God. He thereafter becomes Assured (Nischinta), Fearless (Nirbhay), Grief less (Nishok), Doubtless (Nishank). He, however, does not test that since I have surrendered to God, these qualities should arise in me. On the contrary if he finds any deficiency in himself, he wonders how such a deficiency has still remained. The moment he feels this way, then such a deficiency also alleviates. He believes that my relationship with God is Unbreakable (Atoota), Whole (Akhanda), Permanent (Nitya). Whatever God decides (God's Vidhaan), it is purely for liberation (Kalyaan) of every one (Praani Matra) - if one starts seeing this grace (God's Kripa), then nothing remains to be done. God craves for good of every one (Praani Matra) and therefore he declares " Sarva Dharmaan Parityajya, Mamekam Sharanam Vrija " (Gitaji 18:66) as a very SECRET thing. This is because God considers every one (Jeeva Matra) as his friend - 'Suhrahdam Sarvabhutaanam' (Gitaji 5:29) and gives them the freedom to use any of Karma Yoga, Jnana Yoga or Bhakti Yoga to realise Him and COMPLETELY (Samoola) alleviate all pains (Dukha) for ever. Actually, God's grace is only reason in Kalyaan (liberation) of Jiva (embodied soul). Karma Yoga, Jnana Yoga, Bhakti Yoga etc. all these means are made available by God and God realised souls. Therefore these means are COMPLETELY DRENCHED in God's grace. Vasudev Sarvam… Narayana Narayana Rajendra J. Bohra ------------------------------- Namaste (Nagaji and all) Mindblowing please keep enlightening us. Jayesh Patel -------------------------------- Hari Om What a divine shape this deliberation is taking?Satsanga has its own divinity.Thanks Naga Narainji for really relevant and crucial inputs on the suject of " surrender " . ON ONE HAND There is no doubt that we are stainless, immortal, and ever blissful part of God and God only. There is no doubt that a Jnana Yogi upon achieving perfection " becomes " equal to God. There is no doubt that a Karma Yogi " becomes " the closest to God and a Bhakti Yogi " becomes " indivisible with God. Why do they reach there ? Because they are not inferior to God - 100 percent right.! There is also no doubt that both Liberation and Bondage are in Mind only. Actually, neither is existing- all are relative terms. There is also no doubt that without even thinking / imagining / accepting any existence of God a Jnana Yogi and a Karma Yogi can " become " as good as God. How can a son be inferior or superior to father? How can a part be different than the whole? There is no doubt that the fundamental principle of Gita is VASUDEVAH SARVAM - it is declaration of God, Gita and all Vedas. Poison is as good a creation of God as is nectar. ON THE OTHER HAND There is no doubt that God in Gita declared Himself to be beyond Nature and superior to individual soul (Jeeva - 15:18). There is no doubt that inspite of being fundamentally stainless, faultless fragment of God, every human being makes mistakes - to err is human. There is no doubt that we all feel imperfection, deficiency, lack, inspite of being Son of the King of all Kings and being capable of getting equal or nearest to or indivisible with God! There is no doubt that " samarpan " and " sharangati " are totally different terms, as per Gita and " surrender " is " sharanagati " not " samarpan " . There is no doubt that Gita starts and ends with " sharanagati " (surrender). There is no doubt that 18:66 is about " surrender " and not " samarpan " . Why 18:66 only ? Gita is full of verses where the surrender is glorified ( e.g. 7:14, 15:4, 7:19, 8:14,8:22,9:13,9:34,15:19 etc). There is no doubt that " samarpan " is also used in Gita ( Ref 9:26, 9:27, 9:28, 12:6 - 12:7, 12:8, etc). There is no doubt that Jeeva (embodied Soul) experiences a fiercely burning desire in him of getting something, doing something and knowing something - that is true as of date with all of us. There is no doubt that we lack peace, bliss and fearlessness - at present. If you can't surrender anything because everything is God, then you can't renounce or offer the ownership also or relinquish your rights (samarpan)of anything, because everything is God! In VASUDEVAH SARVAM there is neither " sharanagati " nor " samarpan " . Who will do " samarpan " to whom? There is one only, there is no second existing! " There is also no doubt that by use of different terms, say " samarpan " or " sharanagati " , the basic element or process stated in 18:66 doesn't change. The words are not important, they are " drukanya karane " as per Bhaja Govindam quoted by Naga Narayanaji. Words employed therefore make no difference. Important is basic fact - if Jeeva (embodied Soul) is part of God, where is question of surrender/ samarpana/ any process? It is also true that all sense of fear, inferiority etc are not existing in reality - they are only in mind. It is also true that all scriptures, Gita, God advice Jeeva not to feel fearful, inferior, deficient or incapable, worried, unhappy. At the same time this is also true that each saadhak or human being hits a brickwall of ignorance or realises limitations of his mind during his spiritual journey. It is difficult to imagine any human being can escape the limitations of mind and intellect. The real journey starts therafter. The entire discussion is focused on Jeeva being part of God and hence being in no way inferior to God. Sure! But Jeeva (embodied soul) as of date is not equal or closest or part of God - he has forgotten. Inspite of being perfect, Jeeva feels imperfection. Inspite of needing nothing, Jeeva feels deficiency. Hence Gita, hence need of religion, Hence Saints, Hence Satsanga, Hence " samarpana " . Hence " sharanagati " (surrender), so that Jeeva " becomes " (I repeat " becomes " ) equal to/nearest to/indivisible with God. So that Jeeva recalls his eternal connection with God. So that Jeeva feels perfect, faultless and ever blissful. So that a lost , bewildered, sufferring son goes back into the arms and shelter of his father. So that Jeeva nevers feels inferiority. Oh! What a beautiful experience it is to talk/ think/ deliberate about God, His devotees, His Voice, His Gita, His principles, His infinite minds and intellects, His children ! Pranaam to all Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B -------------------------------- , " sadhak_insight " <sadhak_insight wrote: > > Is God Superior? Am I inferior? Should I surrender to God? > > NO … and, NO … and NO. > > God is not superior to me and I am not inferior to God. Be careful, > I cannot be superior to anything as such since nothing is inferior > to God as such because GOD IS EVERYTHING – VASUDEVA SARVAM. > > Therefore, let me validate my initial statement further … IF I AM > NOT SUPERIOR TO ANYTHING THEN I AM NOT INFERIOR TO ANYTHING > INCLUDING GOD … else … I am inferior to everything as such because > everything else remains God while I am not and therefore I suffer. > An attempt to impose a superior position to oneself while actually > feeling inferior within is the inferiority complex … an attempt to > perceive relative inferiority around to believe self superiority is > the superiority complex … in either case, I suffer from being > inferior within – in one case I know that I am inferior and in the > other case I don't know that I am inferior. > > One who attains such knowledge (beware! Not information!!) that > there is nothing inferior or superior is also GOD as such. > Therefore, a true Bhakta/Gnyani/Yogi is verily THE GOD as such. > Because, for such a person there is nothing to crave for and nothing > to be afraid of: > > Yastu sarvani bhutani aatmanyevanupashyate | > Sarva bhuteshu chaatmaanam tato na vijugupsate || > > The very fear that I could be inferior binds me to the inferiority > driving me to imbibe alien behavior and adapt alien conduct > to " appear " superior … sulking away from my true presence with the > Universal Absolute devoid of all such alienations of superiority and > inferiority. > > The very desire that I should be superior keeps me inferior driving > me to pursue alien objectives and tread alien conduit to " feel " > superior … running away from my true presence with the Universal > Absolute devoid of all such alienations of superiority and > inferiority. > > Appreciating our fear of inferiority and urge for superiority; > acknowledging our ill-placed dependence in the two; understanding > the two as the root causes of all our miseries; and realizing that > the two were and are nothing but figments of our illusions and > hallucinations would eventually force our alien notions of fear and > desire to drop away automatically since all the alienating factors > that separate any entity from The Absolute are mitigated in the > process. > > Yasmin sarvani bhutani aatmaivabhdvijanatah | > Tatra ko mohah kah shokah ekatvamanupashyatah || > > The process is called SAMARPANA which is often translated > as " surrendering " . Again, please note that > > 1. nobody has no rights to surrender anything since the very > notion of owning something which could be possibly surrendered is a > fallacy > 2. there is nothing to surrender since everything is THAT as > such > 3. nothing can be surrendered to God because everything is GOD > > Should we come to this conclusion when logic fails? Should one drop > Karma and Gnyana to attain Bhakti? NO. We should again understand > the subtle differences between information, logic and knowledge. We > should observe the subtle differences between the our activities, > work and action. We should appreciate the subtle differences between > desires, emotions and devotion. > > Using sensory evidences toward a logical existence of one's presence > is Sankhya. On the other hand, the mere awareness of one's presence > is Gnyana. Though the individual awareness is apparently revealed in > one's sensory perception, all the perceptions are established within > this awareness in reality. But, our focus being driven by our > cognitive mechanism hones on the perceptional evidence as reality > rather than the substratum from which the very cognition arises and > into which the very cognition merges back. Gnyana is in the > substratum while Sankhya dwells in the cognitive boundaries. > Therefore, all logical deductions should be applied to appreciate > one's relativity … not to define The Absolute. Again, no logic can > capture Gnyana … and yet, all logic when truthfully pursued point > toward the substratum, The Knowledge. > > The fact is, the cognition is the only mechanism that can help us to > appreciate its own limitations, faults and strengths. On one hand it > is the ignorance. On the other hand, it is the only weapon that can > break the ignorance apart. Therefore, one cannot attain by dropping > one's analytical prowess in spiritual progress when one feels > frustrated while being unable to penetrate through one's ignorance. > Infact, that is when the mechanism is the most useful. If the > mechanism is applied properly, it will eventually drop by itself to > be with The Knowledge rather than with its playful fun and painful > miseries. It should not buckle on any brick wall of ignorance as > such. It is also another fallacy that Bhakti raises when this > mechanism stops. Anything devoid of Gnyana cannot be Bhakti: > > Kuru te ganga sagara gamanam vrataparipalanam athava daanam | > Gnyanavihinah sarvamatena bhajati muktim janma shatena || > > Bhaja Gonidam bhaja Govindam Govindam bhaja mudhamate | > Samsare sannihite kale nahi nahi rakshati dukrinkarane || > > Therefore, observation, analysis, appreciation, understanding and > realization is part of the tri-fold sadhana – Karma, Gnyana and > Bhakti. Again remember … thoughts are NOT KNOWLEDGE … activities are > NOT ACTION … emotions are NOT DEVOTION. Thoughts, activities and > emotions are alienatied from each other and trapped in ones > individual existence while Knowledge, Action and Devotion are > UNIVERSAL. Thoughts, activities and emotions are distinctly > different. Knowledge, Action and Devotion are unanimously synonymous > to each other. Therefore, a Yogi whose activites are merged along > The Action is also a Gnyani whose thoughts are merged with The > Knowledge and also a Bhakta whose experiences are merged in The > Devotion. One without the other would remain mere thoughts or > activities or emotions snowballing into ones storage of Vasanas > (tendencies) becoming root cause for all our miseries. > > Respects. > > Naga Narayana. > ------------------------------- > , " sadhak_insight " > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > Following has been written in commentary to Chapter 18 Verse 61 in > > the Gitaji (Verses and their meaning) published by Gita Press. > > > > Discarding shame, fear, praise and attachment; shedding feeling of > > me and mine from the body and the world; accepting God as the sole > > shelter, final destiation and every thing; non stop remembering of > > God's name, God's virtues, God's influence and God's form with > great > > reverence, devotion and love; doing all worldly activities and > > duties keeping God in mind, as per God's orders/ instructions, > > without any worldly attachment and doing every thing only for God. > > This is true " Sharanagati " (Surrender to God). > > > > I have attempted to translate from Hindi to English myself and > hence > > there may be some difference in the actual intention of the > writer. > > However, I personally feel that the translation is close to what > has > > been written. > > > > A.H.Dalmia > > -------------------------------- - > > Naga ji has right understanding of the 'surrender' because self > > realization is not an obligation towards anyone else but is about > > understanding of the truth. When two people fight over a subject, > > and finally an experiment proves the real position where both > agree. > > For example, in earlier days, some people thought of earth as > centre > > and sun encircling it, and another people thought just reverse. In > > final view, the later proved correct, and everybody accepted it to > > the one truth. In exactly similar way, the conflicts within us > finds > > answer in universal knowledge of self realization and that which > is > > free from any conflict, is the truth. The mind thus surrenders to > > superior most wisdom, and this is surrender to the God. Or in > other > > words, it is removal of ignorance. > > > > Sciences are evolved by inquiry into natural phenomena. > Scientists, > > and even philosophers get satisfied only when their mind is at > peace > > by correct understanding. They write what they understood so that > > errors are removed, and people share the higher wisdom. This truth > > of sciences in observed objects or conduct of surrender and people > > follow laws discovered in sciences. One step above is Dharma or > > knowledge about observer and character rather than conduct. One > > step further is beyond the ultimate truth of life cycles and > causes > > of changes. In these way, surrender is a term for going higher in > > ladder of awareness. > > > > Regards > > K G Misra > > > > -------------------------------- - > > -Shree Hari- > > > > In referance to the comment by Vyas N B: > > > > You spoke my life since that point of change. Indeed it is the > simple > > truth, I at times find it hard to believe the way things have > played > > out, I just have to accept it with humility. I do mean humility. > > I know I am among people with great knowledge of the Bhagavad > Gita, > > and indeed it seems to have an energy when I read it, even though > my > > comprehension of it is poor. > > The debate goes this way, then that way, " I disagree, I agree " . To > me > > it is like, in a spiritual sense, a fan swishing over smoldering > > coals bringing them to life. > > > > With respect and Divine Love, > > > > Mike > > (Mike Keenor) > > > > ------------------------------ > > Remember Hindus, there is no " God " in the Gita. " God " is not a > Hindu > > term. > > Class Yoga > > > > From Moderator : Please suggest other words that represent That > > Paramatma > > Ram Ram > > -------------------------------- > > > > , " sadhak_insight " > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > > > Hari Om > > > > > > Oh! How nice it is to sit together and deliberate! Devotion , > the > > name God has infinite ways to gladden soul. Consider clarification > > of Mike. What he " experienced " was right. Whatever he read was > > debated. This is to be noted. Soul knows no barriers. Conscience > is > > always perfect. Your direct experience is infinite times better > than > > learning! Gita touches your soul. You are right Mike, the > beginning > > of spiritual journey does not always involve God being in focus. > You > > search for the truth and suddenly you get changed - character, > > habits, attitude, every thing changes for better. The same world, > > the same worldly people start looking different. Your focus shifts > > towards looking goodness in others and suddenly you realise there > > are people who help without expecting results. They were there in > > the past also, Sure. But with change in us they are seen with > > clarity. One day, and that day is not far for any determined > > aspirant, will come when all around us will be revealed to us as > God > > and God only! > > > > > > That revelation in fact is the goal of every human being! > > > > > > Jai Shree Krishna > > > > > > Vyas N B > > > > > > ------------------------------ - > > > Hari Hari! > > > > > > I have but two short points. > > > > > > 1. The issue of whether one can actually surrender to God, as > Naga > > > Narayana has put the issue, actually pivots around two very > > > different conceptions of God and jivas. The spiritual teacher > > > (Swami Ramsukdasji) whose disciples host this discussion, it is > my > > > understanding that he has apparently taught that individuality > is > > an > > > illusion of the material world, and upon liberation, we merge > with > > > the impersonal Supreme. I come from a line of teaching that > > > considers individual identity to be eternal, and that each > > > individual has an eternal relationship with the Supreme > Personality > > > of Godhead. With the second conception, the logic leading to the > > > conclusion of surrender and Bhakti is apparent. Generally, I've > > > found that those following first line of teaching consider the > > > second to be incorrect, and vice versa. I don't really see a > > > purpose in debating the point here; actually, I think everyone > > > should pursue God in the way that they can believe in, and > > > hopefully those of us who are farther can come nearer to God > > through > > > devotion to our respective paths. > > > > > > 2. I mainly use a translation of the Bhagavad Gita that is well > > > respected by religious studies departments and sanskrit scholars > > > throughout the world, what to speak of Vaishnava religious > > > authorities. The translator comes from an established line of > > > teachers, and in his life he was an exemplary devotee: A.C. > > > Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. It is readily available online > with > > > sanskrit, word-by-word translations. I have not referred > > > to other's translations as possessing a " serious limitation, " but > > > rather have accepted your respected teacher's translations > because > > I > > > know they are sacred to you. > > > > > > This is a very nice opportunity to learn about different > > conceptions > > > of God, and to use important questions (like that of surrender) > to > > > delve deeper into our own philosophies. I hope it can be done > > > respectfully, now that we are aware of our philosophical > > > differences. I think there is still much held in common. > > > > > > Hare Krishna, > > > Hannah Sandal > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > How about saying surrender to ALMIGHTY who controls OUR > Natural > > > Habitat including Environmemt and Human Evolution itself? > > > > > > Mohan K Muju > > > > > > ------------------------------ - > > > , " sadhak_insight " > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > > > > > What is " surrendering " ? > > > > > > > > Samarpana – Bhakti – God > > > > > > > > No one can " surrender " to God. If something receives your > > > > surrenderance, then it is NOT God. Surrendering involves two > > > > distinct parties – one superior and the other inferior, both > > being > > > > limited owing to their mutually exclusive distinction from each > > > > other. One who surrenders is not a Bhakta and one who is > > > surrendered > > > > to is not God either. One who surrenders is at worst a slave > and > > > one > > > > who receives a surrenderer is at best a king. Note that both a > > > slave > > > > and a king are nothing but slaves – individuals with no > freedom. > > > > Note that all the distinctions are arased between a Bhakta and > > > God. > > > > The very meaning of Bhakti is the mitigation of all alienation > of > > > a > > > > person with ereference to God. The Bhakta is as liberated as > The > > > God > > > > as such due to the lack of all alienating notions between the > > two. > > > > Therefore, the very term " surrender " is a fallacy in spiritual > > > > practice because the word has the popular cannotation > of " giving > > > > away something " or " sacrificing something " as if by force or > by > > no > > > > other choice. > > > > > > > > The sanskrit term " Samarpana " is often referred to as " to > > > surrender " > > > > since that is probably the best english word > available. " Arpana " > > > > means denying ownership of something; " samarpana " is denying > the > > > > very ownership in all respects – in actions, in thoughts as > well > > > as > > > > in desires. The very denial is the only route to mitigate the > > > > differences between subject and object, objects and objects, > and > > > God > > > > and objects. All the distinctions between God, subject and > > objects > > > > are rooted in the perceived notion of ownership as such. > > Observing > > > > the illusive and evasive nature of one's ego to hang on to one > or > > > > the other ownership, understanding the mythical unreality in > all > > > > such notions, and realizing that all our miseries are in fact > > > rooted > > > > in such notions as such is the sound process of purging all the > > > > notions of ownership within to liberate oneself to merge with > the > > > > Universal Reality with no constraints or conditions of any > kind. > > > > Therefore, " samarpana " is the path of devotion to reach the > > > Absolute > > > > Freedom. There is nothing given up in samarpana. There is > nothing > > > > transacted in samarpana. There is nothing attained in > samarpana. > > > Not > > > > seeking to give up, transact and attain is called Bhakti. > > > > > > > > If surrendering is understood synanymous with samarpana, the > very > > > > act is the only Knowledge. Anything else is just information. > The > > > > Bhakti (Samarpana) is the very Karma (The Act). The Karma is > the > > > > very Gnyana (The Knowledge). Thinking that the mind is the the > > > > domain of knowledge is a huge misnomer. Understanding that the > > > mind > > > > is part of knowledge and knowledge is not part of mind is the > > true > > > > knowledge. That is the true surrender (samarpana) from mind's > > > > perspective. A Samarpita Manas (truly surrendered mind) is The > > God > > > > as such where the notion of surrendering never raises again. A > > > > samarpita manas cannot face any kind of " brick walls " – > removing > > > all > > > > such obstacles is the role of logic (informational analysis – > > > > Sankhya); NOT to create one! I would not agree that if somebody > > > > believes to be in Bhakti when one cannot think further as Para > > > > Bhakti. Para Bhakti incorporates proactive understanding > (karma- > > > > purita-gnyana) and realized acitivities (Gnyana-purita- karma). > > The > > > > verses quoted by Mr. Keenor often tend to project variant > notions > > > > regarding Karma, Gnyana and Bhakti – but, only in their > isolated > > > > context. As I understand, Bhagavad Gita cannot create any such > > > > isolation. Everything is THAT alone in all respects though they > > > may > > > > appear as variant within one's perception. Breaking the > barriers > > > of > > > > such perceptional isolation within one's mind is the role of > the > > > > logical observation (Sankhya). Sankhya cannot bring Gnyana – > > logic > > > > in any form cannot bring Knowledge. Sankhya becomes Gnyana in > its > > > > purity. So does the Karma. So does the Bhakti. > > > > > > > > Tasyai tapo damah karmeti pratishtha – the Shraddha > incorporating > > > > focussed knowledge, controled desire and guided action is the > > > > foundation for Samarpana. > > > > > > > > Vedah sarvangani – all the sources of perception (understanding > > > all > > > > perceptions to be as such without any trace of ownership) is > the > > > > domain of Samarpana. > > > > > > > > Satyamayatanam – to be The Truth, The Absolute, The Peace, The > > > Bliss > > > > … to be ONE is THE SAMARPANA. > > > > > > > > Therefore, I canot agree that TRUE SURRENDER (THE SAMARPANA) > can > > > > raise out of an incapable mind. It is the state of a very > capable > > > > mind. > > > > > > > > Respects. > > > > > > > > Naga Narayana. > > > > ---------------------------- -- > -- > > > > > > > > Re Sadhak Hannah's views > > > > > > > > I am indeed touched by the fact that inspite of the very > serious > > > > limitation of the translations of the verses adopted by you, > some > > > of > > > > the conclusions arrived at by you were exceptionally accurate. > > You > > > > may indeed call that grace of God and power and glory of Gita > and > > > of > > > > your devotion to God. . > > > > > > > > However let me tell you that had you had at your disposal > > English > > > > Edition of Saadhak Sanjeevani written by Swamiji Ramsukhdasji > > > > Maharaj , the entire interpretations of the verses would have > > > taken > > > > a divine shape. > > > > > > > > For example what you called as " regulative principles of > Bhakti > > > > Yoga " is in fact " constant practice of (chanting etc) divine > > > name > > > > with equanimity having God as the aim " in 12:9 ! > > > > > > > > 12:10 would have read - > > > > > > > > " If you are unable to practice as above , be thou intent on > > > > performing ordained actions for Me , thus doing self less > actions > > > > for my sake, thou shalt achieve perfection " > > > > > > > > The knowledge referred in Ch 12:12 is not Jnana Yoga in > > entirety. > > > > Here knowledge means mainly reading of scriptures, having > > interest > > > > in what is body, nature,self etc only and merely knowing ( not > > > > realising or experiencing completely) that you are separate > from > > > > your body etc- in other words in very limited sense only ( as > > > there > > > > is no yoga -equanimity attached with that). Here in > > > 12:12 " practice " > > > > referred is mere practice not " practice with equanimity having > > God > > > > as aim " referred in 12:9 !! > > > > > > > > Similarly there is a difference between " practice with > > Equanimity > > > > (abhyaas yogen)with keeping God as aim " referred in 12:9 and > > > > mere " practice " referred in 12:10 (abhyaasepyasamartho) etc > etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > Similarly 12:12 does not entirely refer Karma Yoga but only one > > > > portion of that viz renunciation of fruits Karma Yoga is not > > > wholly > > > > and exclusively renunciation of fruits only!. Here > > > > actually " renunciation " (tyaag) is more glorified > > > than " renunciation > > > > with equanimity " . > > > > > > > > Thus, Here in 12:12 an eternal principle gets revealed - > " every > > > > renunciation results in instant peace " - > > > > > > > > " tyagatchhantimanantaram " > > > > > > > > Now this principle is applicable in every department of life, > > > > everywhere universally! > > > > > > > > Differences are subtle but when you practice or implement or > try > > > to > > > > grasp they become extremely relevant and almost touch your > soul. > > > > After all these verses are the voice of God ! ! Gita is a > mirror, > > > as > > > > is your attitude so does it look ! ! > > > > > > > > Hence I agree with you that there is a need of a perfect > > > translation > > > > of these verses. They make sea of a difference.Here there is > > > > importance of writer! > > > > > > > > Jai Shree Krishna > > > > > > > > Vyas N B > > > > > > > > ---------------------------- -- > -- > > - > > > > Hare Krishna > > > > > > > > Re Sadhak Mike " s Query > > > > > > > > As mentioned in the verses below, there are two kinds of > > > devotional > > > > service: the way of regulative principles and the way of full > > > > attachment in love to the Supreme Personality of Godhead. For > > > those > > > > who are actually not able to follow the principles of Krishna > > > > consciousness it is better to cultivate knowledge, because by > > > > knowledge one can be able to understand his real position. > > > Gradually > > > > knowledge will develop to the point of meditation. By > meditation > > > one > > > > can be able to understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead > by a > > > > gradual process. There are processes which make one understand > > > that > > > > one himself is the Supreme, and that sort of meditation is > > > preferred > > > > if one is unable to engage in devotional service. If one is not > > > able > > > > to meditate in such a way, then there are prescribed duties, as > > > > enjoined in the Vedic literature, for the Brahmanas, Ksatriyas, > > > > Vaisyas and Sudras, which we shall find in the last chapter of > > > > Bhagavad-Gita. But in all cases, one should give up the result > or > > > > fruits of labor; this means to employ the result of karma for > > some > > > > good cause. > > > > > > > > In summary, to reach the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the > > > highest > > > > goal, there are two processes: one process is by gradual > > > > development, and the other process is direct. Devotional > service > > > in > > > > Krishna consciousness is the direct method, and the other > method > > > > involves renouncing the fruits of one's activities. Then one > can > > > > come to the stage of knowledge, then to the stage of > meditation, > > > > then to the stage of understanding the Supersoul, and then to > the > > > > stage of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. One may take > either > > > the > > > > step-by-step process or the direct path. The direct process is > > not > > > > possible for everyone; therefore the indirect process is also > > > good. > > > > It is, however, to be understood that the indirect process is > not > > > > recommended for Arjuna, because he is already at the stage of > > > loving > > > > devotional service to the Supreme Lord. It is for others, who > are > > > > not at this stage; for them the gradual process of > renunciation, > > > > knowledge, meditation and realization of the Supersoul and > > Brahman > > > > should be followed. But as far as Bhagavad-Gita is concerned, > it > > > is > > > > the direct method that is stressed. Everyone is advised to > take > > to > > > > the direct method and surrender unto the Supreme Personality of > > > > Godhead, Krishna > > > > > > > > Your Servant > > > > > > > > Janardhana Dasa > > > > > > > > ---------------------------- -- > -- > > -- > > > > > > > > Dear friends > > > > Vyas ji has ideas on Karma and Zyan and Bhakti and Yoga. In the > > > > Bhagwat Gita, these are soul of understanding. I will try to > > > explain > > > > it in the following way: > > > > > > > > Take example of person(s) going from Delhi to Mumbai. In this > > > > journey of self realization, everyone is in an act of > loneliness, > > > > birth and death in cycles after cycles, and wants to realize > > truth > > > > about him/herself. And when this destination is fixed, YOGA > > > starts. > > > > YOGA is placing one on a path of self realization. > > > > > > > > When an individual starts journey in search of truth, he does > it > > > by > > > > his/her natural instinct whatever it is. This knowledge of the > > > > swabhaav is called ZYAN. Because this ZYAN is directed to > (YOGA) > > > the > > > > path of self realization, it is called ZYAN YOGA. Has this ZYAN > > > been > > > > is not in a direction of self realization, that would be > VISHAYA. > > > > > > > > By knowing the swbhaav, when individual works this is called > > > KARMA. > > > > At every new milestone, the swbhaav gets more pure, and this is > > > > called KARMA YOGA. But when individual does not know his/her > > > > swbhaav and works not in the direction of self realization, > this > > > is > > > > VYAVSAYA (from Vishaya). > > > > > > > > When an individual is working all alone and reaches a stage of > > > self > > > > realization, this is ZYAN YOGA and KARMA YOGA. In Buddhist > > > > tradition, this way is called HINAYAN (small vehicle). It has > > > > advantage because an individual follows TAPAH (endurance), and > > > > learns by mistakes, and quite clear in mind. In earlier > periods, > > > all > > > > Yogis used to stay alone and meditate in forests. Krishna is > > > Himself > > > > this example. > > > > > > > > In case when an individual finds another soul, and joined with > > it, > > > > this togetherness is called BHAKTI. And when the people in > group > > > > work and knowing right way, this is called BHAKTI YOGA. > Buddhist > > > > called it MAHA YAN (large vehicle). In this case, if Bhakti is > > > with > > > > right Guru, the individual keeps following and reaches > > > destination. > > > > This is BHAKTI YOGA and KARMA YOGA. The ZYAN YOGA is there but > > not > > > > relevant because the right path of GURU is enough. SoorDas and > > > > TulsiDas are example of saints who never lived in forests and > > > never > > > > fought war like Arjun, and they by their mind only followed Ram > > > and > > > > Krishna. Zyan is there but not has any effect. It is like > > > milistones > > > > (Kota, Baroda) falling on the way from Delhi to Mumbai, and the > > > > passenger like TulsiDas never get it noticed. > > > > > > > > Arjun is the one who is together with Krishna (BHAKTI YOGA). He > > > got > > > > explanation of every stage in the journey of self realization > or > > > > self transformation to truth (ZYAN YOGA), and had to fight a > war > > > > like living in dangerous forest (tapah, endurance) and staying > at > > > > course is KARMA YOGA. All three. > > > > > > > > Buddha says same thing in other words > > > > Buddham Sharam Gachhami = " Go " to Truth (Karma YOGA) > > > > Dhamman sharnam Gachhami'= by following your " self nature " > (Zyan > > > > YOGA) > > > > Sangham sharnam Gachhami = go " together " (Bhakti YOGA) > > > > > > > > > > > > Best regards > > > > K G > > > > (Krishna Gopal) > > > > ---------------------------- - > > > > > > > > -Shree Hari- > > > > > > > > Clarification: > > > > > > > > The comment on BG 3.3 was not mine but was on the Bhagavad > Gita I > > > was > > > > reading on line. Thus of course this does not change the > wisdom > > of > > > > the > > > > comments posted. > > > > Surrender comment was based on personal experience, (and that > of > > > > the man I met in strange circumstances). We both had one thing > in > > > > common and that was to find the truth, (spiritual truth, not > > > > necessarily God focussed). > > > > I can only speak from my heart, (he has his own journey). But > one > > > > reached a point where every perception one had fell away. A > state > > > of > > > > absolute bewilderment. Of course I know now that the brick wall > > > was > > > > my > > > > own ignorance. But I did then realize that I needed Divine > help. > > > > The early Chapters that I have read seem to be around these > > > thoughts > > > > of mine. > > > > I have also learned that character change does happen. One does > > > help > > > > others without wanting for reward, in fact being at one with > > those > > > > that suffer. And of course always the intellect, but not so > > > blinded > > > > by > > > > the ego, knowing ultimately there is GOD. > > > > This seems to fit in general with the comments, have read. > > > > I know there is much for me to learn. > > > > > > > > With respects and Divine Love. > > > > > > > > Mike Keenor > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------- -- > -- > > -- > > > - > > > > , " sadhak_insight " > > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hari Om > > > > > > > > > > Re Sadhak Mike " s Query > > > > > > > > > > Let us now talk about surrender. Your 2nd learned comment is > > > > indeed > > > > > soul touching and is almost perfect. However as stated in > > > previous > > > > > episode the Bhakti Yoga is independent and therefore the > > > surrender > > > > > doesnot begin when the limitation of mind is realised. It is > a > > > > > principle that mind and intellect cannot reach God because > both > > > > are > > > > > part of Nature (Prakrati) and God is beyond the Nature. > > > However > > > > > you can always change the focus ( direction) of mind and > > > intellect > > > > > from the world to the God. That in itself is more than > > > sufficient. > > > > > > > > > > Bhakti Yoga begins with the outlook - " I am of the God and > > only > > > > God > > > > > is mine, and nobody else is mine " and attains perfection when > > > you > > > > > start seeing/ experiencing presence of God everywhere. Read > > > > > carefully the process differences given by me in the previous > > > > > edition. There are dozens or more such differences but due to > > > > space > > > > > constraints I have given briefly. They are really important > > > from > > > > > spiritual practice point of view. > > > > > > > > > > From your second comment it has been revealed to me that you > > > have > > > > > set the goal for yourself to feel the presence of God > > > everywhere. > > > > > Believe me that goal is perfect- It is ultimate and real > Bhakti > > > > Yoga- > > > > > let me tell you. " VASUDEVAH SARVAM " – All this is God (Gita > > > > 7:19) > > > > > is the final conclusion of Gita and the surrender is the > > > ultimate > > > > > weapon which an aspirant has in his spiritual journey- there > is > > > no > > > > > doubt on these two. In fact Gita begins with surrender ( BG > 2:7 > > > > > quoted by you too) and ends with surrender (18:66). > > > > > > > > > > God starts conversation talking about " WORRYING " to Arjuna ( > > > 2:11) > > > > > and ends his conversation telling Arjuna not to worry( > 18:66). > > > I > > > > > would suggest you read " Saadhak Sanjeevani " a Treatise on > Gita > > > by > > > > > Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj, the English Edition of which is > > > also > > > > > there. That will solve translation confusions of the verses > > > > forever > > > > > for you and it is so vast, comprehensive and clear that > merely > > > by > > > > > reading you may change your perceptions and it shall enthuse > > you > > > > in > > > > > your journey in a miraculous manner. If I get address I may > > > ensure > > > > > you get latest copy of the same by post. In my eyes it is an > > > > > essential commentary and the ULTIMATE ON GITA. No other > > > detailed > > > > > commentary has the depth of cross reference and can even be a > > > > > semblance of it- it is my experience. It is the best on the > > > > subject, > > > > > written by a God realised soul exclusively to help aspirants > > > only. > > > > > > > > > > Hope I have been able to provide clarity. Everything which I > > > write > > > > > is from the books and discourses of Swamiji only. Only the > > > > > translation or presentation is mine. Pls do write if you > need > > > > more > > > > > clarification . > > > > > > > > > > Jai Shree Krishna > > > > > > > > > > Vyas N B > > > > > -------------------------- -- > -- > > -- > > > -- > > > > > , " sadhak_insight " > > > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Hari Hari! > > > > > > In considering this current conversation, I looked to > chapter > > > > > twelve > > > > > > of the Gita, entitled " Devotional Service " . Please forgive > my > > > > > > quoting of several verses: > > > > > > > > > > > > 12.6-7 But those who worship Me, giving up all their > > > activities > > > > > > unto Me and being devoted to Me without deviation, engaged > in > > > > > > devotional service and always meditating upon Me, having > > fixed > > > > > their > > > > > > minds upon Me, O son of Pritha for them I am the swift > > > deliverer > > > > > > from the ocean of birth and death. > > > > > > > > > > > > BG 12.8: Just fix your mind upon Me, the Supreme > Personality > > > of > > > > > > Godhead, and engage all your intelligence in Me. Thus you > > will > > > > > live > > > > > > in Me always, without a doubt. > > > > > > > > > > > > BG 12.9: My dear Arjuna, O winner of wealth, if you cannot > > fix > > > > > your > > > > > > mind upon Me without deviation, then follow the regulative > > > > > > principles of bhakti-yoga. In this way develop a desire to > > > > attain > > > > > Me. > > > > > > > > > > > > BG 12.10: If you cannot practice the regulations of bhakti- > > > yoga, > > > > > > then just try to work for Me, because by working for Me you > > > will > > > > > > come to the perfect stage. > > > > > > > > > > > > BG 12.11: If, however, you are unable to work in this > > > > > consciousness > > > > > > of Me, then try to act giving up all results of your work > and > > > > try > > > > > to > > > > > > be self-situated. > > > > > > > > > > > > BG 12.12: If you cannot take to this practice, then engage > > > > > yourself > > > > > > in the cultivation of knowledge. Better than knowledge, > > > however, > > > > > is > > > > > > meditation, and better than meditation is renunciation of > the > > > > > fruits > > > > > > of action, for by such renunciation one can attain peace of > > > mind. > > > > > > > > > > > > Here, Krishna outlines the options available to us, and > > > > encourages > > > > > > them to pursue them to the best of our ability. He says > that > > > > > > cultivation of knolwedge (JYoga) and renunciation of the > > > fruits > > > > > of > > > > > > action (KYoga) are both beneficial on the path towards > > > > liberation > > > > > > because they help us develop a " desire to attain " God. We > can > > > > use > > > > > > our intelliegence to understand the philosophy of God, and > we > > > > > > can use our ability to renounce to practice controlling our > > > > mind. > > > > > > Bhakti yoga provides principles to practice loving service > to > > > > God. > > > > > > We can see in 12.6-7 that the goal of all of this is to be > > > 100% > > > > > > fixed in a relationship of devotional service with the > > Supreme > > > > > Lord. > > > > > > It is at this point that God provides liberation to those > who > > > > are > > > > > > devoted to him. > > > > > > > > > > > > One final note, is that we are perhaps working from > different > > > > > > translations. I am of the opinion that each person should > > > study > > > > > the > > > > > > authors of the translations, and the quality of different > > > > > > translations, and find the one that is most in line with > > their > > > > own > > > > > > purposes. The differences arise from the difference between > > > > > > English and Sanskrit: there are words in Sanskrit that have > > > many > > > > > > meanings, and these meanings are dependant upon grammar, > > > > spelling, > > > > > > and context. Translation into English is not always > > > > > straightforward, > > > > > > and frequently depends upon the background and purpose of > the > > > > > > translator. You'll find, for example, a very different > > > > translation > > > > > > of the Gita used for learning Sanskrit in American > > > universities. > > > > > > > > > > > > your servant, > > > > > > H. Sandal > > > > > > (Hannah Sandal) > > > > > > ------------------------ -- > > > > > > Dear Sadhakas, Namaste! > > > > > > > > > > > > The essence of the verses mentioned by Mike Keenor has been > > > > > captured > > > > > > in his own words. > > > > > > > > > > > > I would like to suggest, however, that we don't need to > > > consider > > > > > any > > > > > > one path being superior to other paths toward Self-God > > > > > Realization. > > > > > > If Self-God realization were to mean freedom from sorrows > and > > > to > > > > > > live in unconditional Love serving all, it is all the more > > > > > important > > > > > > to see all paths being equal even if they differ in their > > > > > > approaches. If the ultimate results are the same, there is > no > > > > need > > > > > > to compare any paths as being superior or inferior. > Krishnaji > > > > may > > > > > > have said only to emphasize that all can attain such > freedom > > > > even > > > > > if > > > > > > they are not prone to one or the other paths. > > > > > > > > > > > > We need to see that God is not separate from such a Gyani, > or > > > > > Karma- > > > > > > Yogi or Devotee! Gita says God is Devotion in Bhakta, > Truth- > > > > Being- > > > > > > Self in Gyani and self-less actions in Karm-Yogi. > Ultimately > > > > that > > > > > is > > > > > > what happens to Bhakta(Devotee), Karma-Yogi(person of > > selfless > > > > > > action), and Gyani(Self-realized). > > > > > > > > > > > > Some of us are naturally inclined to do Karmas! To make > their > > > > > Karmas > > > > > > not binding and yet serve those who are in need, Gita > > > prescribes > > > > > the > > > > > > Karma-Yoga meaning self-less actions. > > > > > > > > > > > > By performing actions without assuming doership, guided by > > > > > > righteousness, frees one from Bondage due to karmas. Unless > > > one > > > > > has > > > > > > total devotion while performing actions and total > surrender > > of > > > > > > results to God, one just cannot do such self-less actions. > > > Thus > > > > > > Karma-Yogi is also doing Bhakti, leading to freedom (moksha) > > > from > > > > > > sorrows. He will eventually realize his true nature being > > Sat- > > > > Chit- > > > > > > Ananda(Supreme Consciousness, not an individual). > > > > > > > > > > > > In the same way one who is given to inquiry, is a Truth > > > Seeker. > > > > > > He/She will in time become Truth Lover by seeking nothing > but > > > > > Truth. > > > > > > Upon experiencing glimpses of truth in daily life, the > > > devotion > > > > to > > > > > > Truth becomes intense. So again such a truth lover is also > > > > devotee- > > > > > > bhakta of Truth, same as God and then attains knowledge of > > who > > > > > > he/she is in reality and thus perfection! > > > > > > > > > > > > In my experience, one just doesn't follow only one path, > > > rather > > > > > one > > > > > > integrates all such paths and God given resoureces! As we > all > > > > > know, > > > > > > no one can remain without actions, and all of us have > quality > > > of > > > > > > devotion at least in something we do! > > > > > > > > > > > > In the times we are living at present, it is more > appropriate > > > to > > > > > > perform Karmas with the best of one's ability to serve > > > humanity, > > > > > > assuming no-doership thereof and to accept or rather > welcome > > > > > results > > > > > > of such actions. This will automatically leads one to > wonder > > > and > > > > > > inquire about the nature of God, world, and oneself. Upon > > > > > > contemplation of all three, one will realize the truth of > > them > > > > and > > > > > > eventually get established in True Self. Out of such > > knowledge > > > > one > > > > > > becomes a mystic, so to speak, and his/her existence is > > > aligned > > > > > with > > > > > > Totality or wholeness of Being in which individuality is > > > > absorbed. > > > > > > God is just the name to such Experience of Being > everything, > > > > which > > > > > > is Absolute Existence and thus Ananda. > > > > > > > > > > > > Namaskars...Pratap > > > > > > (Pratap Bhatt) > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------ -- > -- > > -- > > > -- > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " sadhak_insight " > > > > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hari Om > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You have sought comments on certain verses of Gita > dealing > > > > with > > > > > > > Jnana Yoga (JY) , Karma Yoga (KY) and Bhakti Yoga (BY) > and > > > on > > > > > two > > > > > > > learned comments, that formulated your thinking. I shall > > > > briefly > > > > > > > take you through the best on the subject to impart total > > > > > clarity. > > > > > > > The answer shall be in minimum two installments of one > page > > > > > each, > > > > > > > maximum three. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > First Bhagavad Gita 3:3. The correct translation of the > > > verse > > > > is > > > > > > as > > > > > > > under - " O Sinless Arjuna, in this world a two fold > path > > > > has > > > > > > been > > > > > > > enunciated by Me before, the Path of Knowledge (Jnana > Yoga > > > or > > > > > > > Sankhya Yoga) for men of renunciation and the Path of > > > Action > > > > > for > > > > > > > men of action (Karma Yoga) " . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The correct translation of BG 3:7 is - " But he who > controls > > > > his > > > > > > > senses through the mind, O Arjuna, and engages himself in > > > the > > > > > path > > > > > > > of action, with the organs of action and sense, without > > > being > > > > > > > attached, is superior. " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your comment that - " The karmi and jnani are different in > > > name > > > > > > only. > > > > > > > Actually, persons engaged in karma become pure hearted > > > jnanis > > > > by > > > > > > > their actions. And the jnanis become liberated by > > bhakti. " - > > > > > > > > can > > > > > > > not be said to be entirely correct. Because it pre > suposses > > > > that > > > > > > the > > > > > > > outcome or the end result of these exercises is " purity > of > > > > > heart " > > > > > > > while actually the end result of both of them > > > is " liberation " . > > > > > > > Further the comment that they are different names only is > > > > right > > > > > > from > > > > > > > only end result perspective and certainly not from the > > > process > > > > > > > followed by them and by the attitude of a Jnana Yogi and > a > > > > Karma > > > > > > > Yogi. (Refer last para of this edition). Secondly this > > > comment > > > > > > > presumes that Bhakti is necessary for liberation, but > > > actually > > > > > > > Bhakti gets you ever increasing love of God in addition > to > > > > > > > liberation. Your translation also of the verse does not > > > bring > > > > > out > > > > > > > Karma Yoga clearly and gets rather tilted towards bhakti > > > when > > > > > you > > > > > > > refer devotional service. Here are some good revelations. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In this verse the term " loke " stands for " in this > world " . > > > > Here > > > > > > only > > > > > > > two yogas (paths) have been described, not three. Bhakti > > > Yoga > > > > > is > > > > > > > absent here. Reason is that while Jnana Yoga and Karma > > Yoga > > > > > > > are " laukik " (worldly – beliefs/paths to be practiced in > > > > > relation > > > > > > to > > > > > > > the world and worldly things), the Bhakti Yoga > > > is " alaukik " > > > > > > > (beyond this world - divine, special path, a belief/path > to > > > be > > > > > > > practiced in relation to God). Refer also discussion > below > > > > > dealing > > > > > > > with perishable/imperishable - both of which elements are > > > > > worldly > > > > > > > only. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The term " nishtha " stands for Equanimity, which can be > > > either > > > > > > > attained through the path of knowledge or through path of > > > > > action. > > > > > > > (There is very little need of equanimity in fact in > Bhakti > > > > > Yoga) – > > > > > > > Refer distinction made by God in Gita 2:39. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Corresponding to these two paths there are two types of > > > > purushas > > > > > > > (men) – Gita 15:16 – one Akshar (Immortal self) and > > > > two " Kshar " > > > > > > > (mortal world). To remain equanimous in success or > failure, > > > or > > > > > > > profits or losses (dualities) etc. of the perishable is > > > Karma > > > > > > Yoga, > > > > > > > while having disinclination for the perishable and being > > > > > > established > > > > > > > in imperishable (self) is Sankhya or Jnana Yoga. But > above > > > > these > > > > > > two > > > > > > > there is the Supreme Person who is beyond the > perishable, > > > > and > > > > > is > > > > > > > superior to the imperishable, called as Paramatma (God) > in > > > the > > > > > > > scriptures and Veda (Gita 15:18). Thus a whole hearted > > > > surrender > > > > > > to > > > > > > > God, is called Discipline of Devotion (Bhakti Yoga). In > > > Karma > > > > > Yoga > > > > > > > there is predominance of perishable, in Sankhya Yoga > there > > > is > > > > > > > predominance of imperishable and in Bhakti Yoga there is > > > > > > > predominance of God. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The state of " nishtha " (Equanimity) can be attained by > > > > strivers, > > > > > > > either through knowledge or through Action, but > > > identification > > > > > > with > > > > > > > the God, is not their own (nishtha). In Sankhya state, > > > > strivers > > > > > > > experience distinctly, the existence of their own > selves, > > as > > > > > well > > > > > > > as, that of the world and try to cut asunder the affinity > > > for > > > > > the > > > > > > > world. A Karma Yogi offers to the world, everything > > > (including > > > > > > even > > > > > > > his body), that he has derived from it and removes > affinity > > > > > from > > > > > > > the world. In this way both of them get established in > > their > > > > > true > > > > > > > form – the self. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Neither think others as evil doers, nor wish evil to > others > > > > nor > > > > > do > > > > > > > evil to others- with this outlook " Karma Yoga " begins. > > > Nothing > > > > > is > > > > > > > mine, I need nothing and I have to do nothing for > myself – > > > by > > > > > > > accepting this truth " Jnana (Sankhya) Yoga " begins. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The beauty is that in both the paths of JY and KY there > is > > > no > > > > > need > > > > > > > of even thinking about/ focusing/ accepting the > existence > > of > > > > God > > > > > > at > > > > > > > all. Both JYs and KYs get liberated easily without even > > > > > imagining > > > > > > > about God. It is only in BY that God comes into picture > > > right > > > > > from > > > > > > > beginning. In both JY and KY the God is optional not at > all > > > > > > > compulsory even upto the final stage. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You, Mike has presumed an order of KY first, then JY and > > > then > > > > BY > > > > > > as > > > > > > > the last. Gita does not to that view. In Gita > it > > > is > > > > > JY, > > > > > > > then KY (superior to JY) and then BY (best ). However all > > > > three > > > > > > are > > > > > > > Independent ways of liberation. If you are determined > then > > > > you > > > > > > need > > > > > > > not take another or additional route to continue your > > > journey, > > > > > > > unless when you want love of God also. All three get you > > > > > > > liberation. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The aforesaid orders therefore are from comfort point of > > > view > > > > > only. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now coming to how they are different from process point > of > > > > view. > > > > > > In > > > > > > > JY you use your power of " knowing " , in KY your power > > > > of " doing " > > > > > > and > > > > > > > in BY your power of belief/acceptance. In JY your > > conscience > > > > is > > > > > > the > > > > > > > guiding force, in KY it is action and in BY it is > emotions > > > of > > > > > > > faith/belief. In JY you depend upon self, in KY upon duty > > > and > > > > in > > > > > > BY > > > > > > > upon God. In JY you renounce ego, in KY " desires " and in > BY > > > > the > > > > > > > mineness with the world. In JY you eliminate ego, in KY > you > > > > > > > modify/purify ego and in BY you change your ego. In JY > you > > > > > become > > > > > > > equal to God, in KY near to God and in BY indivisible > with > > > > God. > > > > > A > > > > > > JY > > > > > > > is useful to himself, a KY is useful to the world and a > BY > > > to > > > > > the > > > > > > > God. In JY your desire to " know something " is > extinguished, > > > in > > > > > > > KY " to do something " and in BY to get something. In JY > you > > > > > > renounce > > > > > > > the doership first, in KY you renounce the " enjoyership " > > and > > > > in > > > > > BY > > > > > > > you renounce the " mineness " with the worldly people. In > JY > > > you > > > > > get > > > > > > > pleased by self, in KY by seeing others happy, in BY by > > > making > > > > > God > > > > > > > happy.In JY you don't do anything, in KY you do for > others > > > > only > > > > > > and > > > > > > > in BY you do for God. In JY you surrender the things to > > > > Nature, > > > > > in > > > > > > > KY to the world and in BY to the God.In JY obstacle is > your > > > > ego > > > > > > and > > > > > > > body, in KY obstacle is your attachment with worldly > > > pleasures > > > > > and > > > > > > > in BY the obstacle is remaining away from God. In JY your > > > > karmas > > > > > > get > > > > > > > burnt, in KY they become " akarmas " (fruitless) and in BY > > > they > > > > > > > become " divya " ( divine). In JY you don't desire anything > > > from > > > > > > > anyone, in KY you fulfil desires of others and in BY you > > > merge > > > > > > your > > > > > > > desires into the desire of God. In JY you don't consider > > > > anyone > > > > > to > > > > > > > be " mine " , in KY all in the world are yours but for > > > selfless > > > > > > > service only, and in BY only God is yours. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Balance in next edition. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jai Shree Krishna > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Vyas N B > > > > > > > ---------------------- -- > -- > > -- > > > -- > > > > -- > > > > > -- > > > > > > > It is very interesting to read your teachings ! I > > personally > > > > > feel > > > > > > > that if one can use the ' INDRIYAS' as tools, ( The > > sensory > > > > > > > organs ) then, one uses the eyes to its fullest - which > > > means > > > > > that > > > > > > > the job of the eyes is only to report - see and report - > > > but, > > > > we > > > > > > > then remember that all the further decisions are made by > > the > > > > > atma > > > > > > or > > > > > > > the self which is the life - and if this self is > manifested > > > > with > > > > > > > desires - it does not follow the righteous path, then the > > > eyes > > > > > are > > > > > > > not to blame for reporting ! The BG is the best tool > which > > > > > teaches > > > > > > > us how to use these indriyas to our betterment - not to > > > > > > destruction > > > > > > > with desires !! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Prapati > > > > > > > ---------------------- -- > -- > > -- > > > -- > > > > -- > > > > > - > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " sadhak_insight " > > > > > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -Shree Hari- > > > > > > > > I would very much appreciate any comments or guidance > on > > > my > > > > > > > thoughts > > > > > > > > below regarding surrender, > > > > > > > > I have listed some of the chapters plus a learned > > comment, > > > > that > > > > > > > > formulated my thinking. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > BG 2.7 > > > > > > > > " Now I am confused about my duty and have lost all > > > composure > > > > > > > because > > > > > > > > of miserly weakness. In this condition I am asking You > to > > > > tell > > > > > > me > > > > > > > for > > > > > > > > certain what is best for me. Now I am Your disciple, > and > > a > > > > soul > > > > > > > > surrendered unto You. Please instruct me. " > > > > > > > > BG 3.3 > > > > > > > > The Supreme Personality of Godhead said: O sinless > > Arjuna, > > > I > > > > > have > > > > > > > > already explained that there are two classes of men who > > > try > > > > to > > > > > > > > realize > > > > > > > > the self. Some are inclined to understand it by > > empirical, > > > > > > > > philosophical speculation, and others by devotional > > > service. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A comment on 3.3 > > > > > > > > The karmi and jnani are different in name only. > > Actually > > > > > > persons > > > > > > > > engaged in karma become pure hearted jnanis by the > > > actions. > > > > > And > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > jnanis become liberated by bhakti. This is meaning of > all > > > my > > > > > > words. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > BG 3.7 > > > > > > > > On the other hand, if a sincere person tries to control > > > the > > > > > > active > > > > > > > > senses by the mind and begins karma-yoga [in Krishna > > > > > > consciousness] > > > > > > > > without attachment, he is by far superior. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Surrender:- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From my readings it appears that with jnana , > ultimately > > > the > > > > > > > > aspirant, can hit a brick wall as it were, the mind > finds > > > a > > > > > > place > > > > > > > > it cannot proceed beyond. At that point to surrender > to > > > > the > > > > > > > Divine > > > > > > > > Lord without reservation, to no longer think in pure > > logic > > > > of > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > Absolute Truth, and to follow faithfully the path that > > > opens > > > > > > > before > > > > > > > > you with courage. Can open the eyes with wonder, as the > > > Lord > > > > > > shows > > > > > > > > his presence in all that is revealed, how can a soul be > > > > > anything > > > > > > > but > > > > > > > > bhakti, after such a moment of truth? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > With Respect and Divine Love, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mike > > > > > > > > (Mike Keenor) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------------- -- > -- > > -- > > > -- > > > > - > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > GUIDELINES FOR POSTING A RESPONSE: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. The group is focused on the Holy Gitaji, therefore, > > > only > > > > > > > > responses which further clarify the understanding of > > > Gitaji, > > > > > > will > > > > > > > be > > > > > > > > posted. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2. Making reference of Gitaji shloka is highly > > encouraged - > > > > > > > at > > > > > > > least > > > > > > > > once in the response. Wherever possible, please quote > > > > Gitaji > > > > > or > > > > > > > > other scriptures to substantiate your response. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, > > > > > respecting > > > > > > > > sadhaka's time. Under no circustance the answer should > > > > exceed > > > > > > say > > > > > > > > one page at the most (500 words or so). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 4. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs > etc. > > > to > > > > > the > > > > > > > > extent that they further help in understanding the Gita > > > > shlokas > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand > only. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or > > other > > > > > > > > organizations. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 7. Complete reproduction of texts from any book is > > > strongly > > > > > > > > discouraged, however references may be made of the > book > > > or > > > > > > author > > > > > > > > (but not links to other sites). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 8. Kindly do not include your personal information > such > > as > > > > > phone > > > > > > > > number, address etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 9. Please do not address the response to a particular > > > > > individual > > > > > > > > since the message is going to the entire group. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 10. Due to the large readership, only those responses > > will > > > > be > > > > > > > posted > > > > > > > > which are in line with the general philosophy of taking > > > > > Shrimad > > > > > > > > Bhagavad Gita as the reference. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 11. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the > posting, > > > if > > > > > > > content > > > > > > > > is unclear for distribution or not directly related to > > the > > > > > > > question > > > > > > > > being asked. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 12. Please respond taking into consideration the > novices, > > > > > youth, > > > > > > > > westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the > use > > > of > > > > > only > > > > > > > > Sanskrit words, rather provide the English word with > > > > Sanskrit > > > > > > > > bracketed wherever possible. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > MODERATOR > > > > > > > > Ram Ram > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 12, 2008 Report Share Posted July 12, 2008 Hari Om Thanks. Right you are. How easily we can cross the ocean! That is kripa (benevolence) of God! Can there be an easier thing than surrender? Certainly not. Surrender and the principles of surrender, the great utility of surrender - it is seen by us , experienced by us, realised by us from day one as our " direct experience " You were as sharanagat only (surrendered) when you were born!! Can surrender principles remain then out of direct experience?. How blissful, how fearless, how doubtless, how worryless, how divine, how carefree was our childhood - when we slept, played, danced, did all sorts of notorities and bratinesses, learnt, grew and developed in the loving arms of father and mother? Were we not then surrendered? Yes, We were! We certainly were in surrendered mode! When did we doubt as a child as to whether the mother is mine? We did not know with certainty whether our our mother is truly our mother, but in our hearts we had no doubt. We had one belief " Mother is Mine " . That is all we had. That is all is needed also - " God is mine " to surrender. What other qualification we had then (when we were children)? There is no need of any action or knowledge or karma, or jnana (knowledge), or mind , or intellect, or wisdom, or analysis, or ego, nothing is needed. - " Only God is mine " is needed. And it is needed in the form of an acceptance, a doubtless, " self " acceptance from within. You are absolutely right in concluding that a surrendered devotee, as soon as he surrenders becomes worriless(nischint), becomes grief less (nisshok), becomes doubtless (nisshank) and fearless (nirbhay). And so remains a child! Why child only? What is patient in front of a doctor? What are old people ? What is an Indian " pativrata " (devoted and dutiful) wife ? What were traditional disciples vis a vis Gurus (spiritual guides)? What is a loyal employee before his employer? What is a criminal before judge? What is a weak before the powerful? All are surrendered! We surrender every day before our mind, before our circumstances, before our calls of nature, before our desires, before our superiors , before our destiny, before our diseases, before our death, - where do we not surrender? What is then impossibility or shame or inferiority or unjustness about our surrendering before the God? What is difficulty? What kind of " knowledge " a child has before he surrenders? What kind of analytical research or expertise a patient has when he surrenders before the Doctor? Oh ! How graceful is God ! How easy it is to surrender! How just and equitable it is to surrender? How beneficial it is to surrender? All ignorance vanishes. All sorrows get extinguished with roots! All sins get destroyed! You become indivisible with God - with your father! How superior is God! How merciful is our Father! How great are the principles of surrender! How sacred is Gita - the voice of our Father! Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B - -Shree Hari- Going back to to my quote in 'clarification': 'But one reached a point where every perception one had fell away. A state of absolute bewilderment. Of course I know now that the brick wall was my own ignorance. But I did then realize that I needed Divine help'. After many years of meditation deep silent. Constant contemplation of the meaning of the 'Logos', fascinated me. Seeing through the glaring double speak of religions, pushing my mind beyond the 'logos', (well attempting to). Two others I have known that had come to this spiritual point turned, to what I consider to be the fountain of great spiritual energy, India, and took a Yoga path, I sat at the feet of a High Lama, but slowly was drawn towards the Indian traditions. This site, gita talk is absolutely brilliant, I never looked for it, it sort of came at me, and I did not 'Delete' click. Discussing Surrender to God, with my son, he said, " Hmm, you mean to yielding to your true self, higher self " , " Yes " , I said. One could not proceed without higher guidance, one had to proceed! This was no place to dally! What of Bhagavad Gita 2.7 , Arjuna was confused, so was I. How can I surrender as a slave to that which is my higher self, that which I find in meditation, that which radiates a sweet energy from my heart that spells sacred love, and causes my eyes to weep sweet gentle tears. I am not sure who does the weeping, the 'Beloved', or my lower self. I will keep reading 'The Gita', and will ask questions, and I apologize if they are Western and clumsy, but maybe my coal bucket will someday shine, (I liked that story). With Respect and Divine Love, Mike (Mike Keenor) -- Just an observation to correct the address " god " In our Hindu vocabulary, PARMAATMA is word used for God. We shouldn't use incorrect terminology. We are supposedly free from colonialism and enslaved mentality. Naresh Khanna --- , " sadhak_insight " <sadhak_insight wrote: > > Jai Shri Krishna, > > 'Sharanagati' (Surrender) & 'Samarpan' (offering) are two altogether > different terms. Sharanagati is of Self and Surrender is of things > separate from Self. " Sharanagati " is " Self " related and " Samarpan " > is " worldly things " related. We surrender our Karma to the God. > > A Sharnagat Devotee firmly believes that I am God's and God is mine. > A Sharanagat devotee with such a FIRM belief then surrenders himself > along with offering (Samarpan) all 'so called his things' to the > God. He thereafter becomes Assured (Nischinta), Fearless (Nirbhay), > Grief less (Nishok), Doubtless (Nishank). He, however, does not test > that since I have surrendered to God, these qualities should arise > in me. On the contrary if he finds any deficiency in himself, he > wonders how such a deficiency has still remained. The moment he > feels this way, then such a deficiency also alleviates. He believes > that my relationship with God is Unbreakable (Atoota), Whole > (Akhanda), Permanent (Nitya). > > Whatever God decides (God's Vidhaan), it is purely for liberation > (Kalyaan) of every one (Praani Matra) - if one starts seeing this > grace (God's Kripa), then nothing remains to be done. God craves for > good of every one (Praani Matra) and therefore he declares " Sarva > Dharmaan Parityajya, Mamekam Sharanam Vrija " (Gitaji 18:66) as a > very SECRET thing. This is because God considers every one (Jeeva > Matra) as his friend - 'Suhrahdam Sarvabhutaanam' (Gitaji 5:29) and > gives them the freedom to use any of Karma Yoga, Jnana Yoga or > Bhakti Yoga to realise Him and COMPLETELY (Samoola) alleviate all > pains (Dukha) for ever. > > Actually, God's grace is only reason in Kalyaan (liberation) of Jiva > (embodied soul). Karma Yoga, Jnana Yoga, Bhakti Yoga etc. all these > means are made available by God and God realised souls. Therefore > these means are COMPLETELY DRENCHED in God's grace. > > Vasudev Sarvam… > > Narayana Narayana > > Rajendra J. Bohra > ------------------------------- > > Namaste (Nagaji and all) > > Mindblowing please keep enlightening us. > Jayesh Patel > > > -------------------------------- > Hari Om > > What a divine shape this deliberation is taking?Satsanga has its own > divinity.Thanks Naga Narainji for really relevant and crucial inputs > on the suject of " surrender " . > > ON ONE HAND > > There is no doubt that we are stainless, immortal, and ever > blissful part of God and God only. There is no doubt that a Jnana > Yogi upon achieving perfection " becomes " equal to God. There is no > doubt that a Karma Yogi " becomes " the closest to God and a Bhakti > Yogi " becomes " indivisible with God. Why do they reach there ? > Because they are not inferior to God - 100 percent right.! > > There is also no doubt that both Liberation and Bondage are in Mind > only. Actually, neither is existing- all are relative terms. There > is also no doubt that without even thinking / imagining / accepting > any existence of God a Jnana Yogi and a Karma Yogi can " become " as > good as God. How can a son be inferior or superior to father? How > can a part be different than the whole? There is no doubt that the > fundamental principle of Gita is VASUDEVAH SARVAM - it is > declaration of God, Gita and all Vedas. Poison is as good a creation > of God as is nectar. > > ON THE OTHER HAND > > There is no doubt that God in Gita declared Himself to be beyond > Nature and superior to individual soul (Jeeva - 15:18). There is no > doubt that inspite of being fundamentally stainless, faultless > fragment of God, every human being makes mistakes - to err is human. > There is no doubt that we all feel imperfection, deficiency, lack, > inspite of being Son of the King of all Kings and being capable of > getting equal or nearest to or indivisible with God! There is no > doubt that " samarpan " and " sharangati " are totally different terms, > as per Gita and " surrender " is " sharanagati " not " samarpan " . There > is no doubt that Gita starts and ends with " sharanagati " > (surrender). There is no doubt that 18:66 is about " surrender " and > not " samarpan " . Why 18:66 only ? Gita is full of verses where the > surrender is glorified ( e.g. 7:14, 15:4, 7:19, > 8:14,8:22,9:13,9:34,15:19 etc). There is no doubt that " samarpan " is > also used in Gita ( Ref 9:26, 9:27, 9:28, 12:6 - 12:7, 12:8, etc). > There is no doubt that Jeeva (embodied Soul) experiences a fiercely > burning desire in him of getting something, doing something and > knowing something - that is true as of date with all of us. There is > no doubt that we lack peace, bliss and fearlessness - at present. > > If you can't surrender anything because everything is God, then you > can't renounce or offer the ownership also or relinquish your > rights (samarpan)of anything, because everything is God! In > VASUDEVAH SARVAM there is neither " sharanagati " nor " samarpan " . Who > will do " samarpan " to whom? There is one only, there is no second > existing! > > " There is also no doubt that by use of different terms, > say " samarpan " or " sharanagati " , the basic element or process stated > in 18:66 doesn't change. The words are not important, they > are " drukanya karane " as per Bhaja Govindam quoted by Naga > Narayanaji. Words employed therefore make no difference. Important > is basic fact - if Jeeva (embodied Soul) is part of God, where is > question of surrender/ samarpana/ any process? > > It is also true that all sense of fear, inferiority etc are not > existing in reality - they are only in mind. It is also true that > all scriptures, Gita, God advice Jeeva not to feel fearful, > inferior, deficient or incapable, worried, unhappy. At the same time > this is also true that each saadhak or human being hits a brickwall > of ignorance or realises limitations of his mind during his > spiritual journey. It is difficult to imagine any human being can > escape the limitations of mind and intellect. The real journey > starts therafter. > > The entire discussion is focused on Jeeva being part of God and > hence being in no way inferior to God. > > Sure! > > But Jeeva (embodied soul) as of date is not equal or closest or > part of God - he has forgotten. Inspite of being perfect, Jeeva > feels imperfection. Inspite of needing nothing, Jeeva feels > deficiency. Hence Gita, hence need of religion, Hence Saints, Hence > Satsanga, Hence " samarpana " . Hence " sharanagati " (surrender), so > that Jeeva " becomes " (I repeat " becomes " ) equal to/nearest > to/indivisible with God. So that Jeeva recalls his eternal > connection with God. So that Jeeva feels perfect, faultless and ever > blissful. So that a lost , bewildered, sufferring son goes back into > the arms and shelter of his father. So that Jeeva nevers feels > inferiority. > > Oh! What a beautiful experience it is to talk/ think/ deliberate > about God, His devotees, His Voice, His Gita, His principles, His > infinite minds and intellects, His children ! > > Pranaam to all > > Jai Shree Krishna > > Vyas N B > > -------------------------------- > , " sadhak_insight " > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > Is God Superior? Am I inferior? Should I surrender to God? > > > > NO … and, NO … and NO. > > > > God is not superior to me and I am not inferior to God. Be careful, > > I cannot be superior to anything as such since nothing is inferior > > to God as such because GOD IS EVERYTHING – VASUDEVA SARVAM. > > > > Therefore, let me validate my initial statement further … IF I AM > > NOT SUPERIOR TO ANYTHING THEN I AM NOT INFERIOR TO ANYTHING > > INCLUDING GOD … else … I am inferior to everything as such because > > everything else remains God while I am not and therefore I suffer. > > An attempt to impose a superior position to oneself while actually > > feeling inferior within is the inferiority complex … an attempt to > > perceive relative inferiority around to believe self superiority is > > the superiority complex … in either case, I suffer from being > > inferior within – in one case I know that I am inferior and in the > > other case I don't know that I am inferior. > > > > One who attains such knowledge (beware! Not information!!) that > > there is nothing inferior or superior is also GOD as such. > > Therefore, a true Bhakta/Gnyani/Yogi is verily THE GOD as such. > > Because, for such a person there is nothing to crave for and > nothing > > to be afraid of: > > > > Yastu sarvani bhutani aatmanyevanupashyate | > > Sarva bhuteshu chaatmaanam tato na vijugupsate || > > > > The very fear that I could be inferior binds me to the inferiority > > driving me to imbibe alien behavior and adapt alien conduct > > to " appear " superior … sulking away from my true presence with the > > Universal Absolute devoid of all such alienations of superiority > and > > inferiority. > > > > The very desire that I should be superior keeps me inferior driving > > me to pursue alien objectives and tread alien conduit to " feel " > > superior … running away from my true presence with the Universal > > Absolute devoid of all such alienations of superiority and > > inferiority. > > > > Appreciating our fear of inferiority and urge for superiority; > > acknowledging our ill-placed dependence in the two; understanding > > the two as the root causes of all our miseries; and realizing that > > the two were and are nothing but figments of our illusions and > > hallucinations would eventually force our alien notions of fear and > > desire to drop away automatically since all the alienating factors > > that separate any entity from The Absolute are mitigated in the > > process. > > > > Yasmin sarvani bhutani aatmaivabhdvijanatah | > > Tatra ko mohah kah shokah ekatvamanupashyatah || > > > > The process is called SAMARPANA which is often translated > > as " surrendering " . Again, please note that > > > > 1. nobody has no rights to surrender anything since the very > > notion of owning something which could be possibly surrendered is a > > fallacy > > 2. there is nothing to surrender since everything is THAT as > > such > > 3. nothing can be surrendered to God because everything is GOD > > > > Should we come to this conclusion when logic fails? Should one drop > > Karma and Gnyana to attain Bhakti? NO. We should again understand > > the subtle differences between information, logic and knowledge. We > > should observe the subtle differences between the our activities, > > work and action. We should appreciate the subtle differences > between > > desires, emotions and devotion. > > > > Using sensory evidences toward a logical existence of one's > presence > > is Sankhya. On the other hand, the mere awareness of one's presence > > is Gnyana. Though the individual awareness is apparently revealed > in > > one's sensory perception, all the perceptions are established > within > > this awareness in reality. But, our focus being driven by our > > cognitive mechanism hones on the perceptional evidence as reality > > rather than the substratum from which the very cognition arises and > > into which the very cognition merges back. Gnyana is in the > > substratum while Sankhya dwells in the cognitive boundaries. > > Therefore, all logical deductions should be applied to appreciate > > one's relativity … not to define The Absolute. Again, no logic can > > capture Gnyana … and yet, all logic when truthfully pursued point > > toward the substratum, The Knowledge. > > > > The fact is, the cognition is the only mechanism that can help us > to > > appreciate its own limitations, faults and strengths. On one hand > it > > is the ignorance. On the other hand, it is the only weapon that can > > break the ignorance apart. Therefore, one cannot attain by dropping > > one's analytical prowess in spiritual progress when one feels > > frustrated while being unable to penetrate through one's ignorance. > > Infact, that is when the mechanism is the most useful. If the > > mechanism is applied properly, it will eventually drop by itself to > > be with The Knowledge rather than with its playful fun and painful > > miseries. It should not buckle on any brick wall of ignorance as > > such. It is also another fallacy that Bhakti raises when this > > mechanism stops. Anything devoid of Gnyana cannot be Bhakti: > > > > Kuru te ganga sagara gamanam vrataparipalanam athava daanam | > > Gnyanavihinah sarvamatena bhajati muktim janma shatena || > > > > Bhaja Gonidam bhaja Govindam Govindam bhaja mudhamate | > > Samsare sannihite kale nahi nahi rakshati dukrinkarane || > > > > Therefore, observation, analysis, appreciation, understanding and > > realization is part of the tri-fold sadhana – Karma, Gnyana and > > Bhakti. Again remember … thoughts are NOT KNOWLEDGE … activities > are > > NOT ACTION … emotions are NOT DEVOTION. Thoughts, activities and > > emotions are alienatied from each other and trapped in ones > > individual existence while Knowledge, Action and Devotion are > > UNIVERSAL. Thoughts, activities and emotions are distinctly > > different. Knowledge, Action and Devotion are unanimously > synonymous > > to each other. Therefore, a Yogi whose activites are merged along > > The Action is also a Gnyani whose thoughts are merged with The > > Knowledge and also a Bhakta whose experiences are merged in The > > Devotion. One without the other would remain mere thoughts or > > activities or emotions snowballing into ones storage of Vasanas > > (tendencies) becoming root cause for all our miseries. > > > > Respects. > > > > Naga Narayana. > > ------------------------------- > > , " sadhak_insight " > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > > > Following has been written in commentary to Chapter 18 Verse 61 > in > > > the Gitaji (Verses and their meaning) published by Gita Press. > > > > > > Discarding shame, fear, praise and attachment; shedding feeling > of > > > me and mine from the body and the world; accepting God as the > sole > > > shelter, final destiation and every thing; non stop remembering > of > > > God's name, God's virtues, God's influence and God's form with > > great > > > reverence, devotion and love; doing all worldly activities and > > > duties keeping God in mind, as per God's orders/ instructions, > > > without any worldly attachment and doing every thing only for > God. > > > This is true " Sharanagati " (Surrender to God). > > > > > > I have attempted to translate from Hindi to English myself and > > hence > > > there may be some difference in the actual intention of the > > writer. > > > However, I personally feel that the translation is close to what > > has > > > been written. > > > > > > A.H.Dalmia > > > ------------------------------ -- > - > > > Naga ji has right understanding of the 'surrender' because self > > > realization is not an obligation towards anyone else but is > about > > > understanding of the truth. When two people fight over a > subject, > > > and finally an experiment proves the real position where both > > agree. > > > For example, in earlier days, some people thought of earth as > > centre > > > and sun encircling it, and another people thought just reverse. > In > > > final view, the later proved correct, and everybody accepted it > to > > > the one truth. In exactly similar way, the conflicts within us > > finds > > > answer in universal knowledge of self realization and that which > > is > > > free from any conflict, is the truth. The mind thus surrenders > to > > > superior most wisdom, and this is surrender to the God. Or in > > other > > > words, it is removal of ignorance. > > > > > > Sciences are evolved by inquiry into natural phenomena. > > Scientists, > > > and even philosophers get satisfied only when their mind is at > > peace > > > by correct understanding. They write what they understood so > that > > > errors are removed, and people share the higher wisdom. This > truth > > > of sciences in observed objects or conduct of surrender and > people > > > follow laws discovered in sciences. One step above is Dharma or > > > knowledge about observer and character rather than conduct. One > > > step further is beyond the ultimate truth of life cycles and > > causes > > > of changes. In these way, surrender is a term for going higher > in > > > ladder of awareness. > > > > > > Regards > > > K G Misra > > > > > > ------------------------------ -- > - > > > -Shree Hari- > > > > > > In referance to the comment by Vyas N B: > > > > > > You spoke my life since that point of change. Indeed it is the > > simple > > > truth, I at times find it hard to believe the way things have > > played > > > out, I just have to accept it with humility. I do mean humility. > > > I know I am among people with great knowledge of the Bhagavad > > Gita, > > > and indeed it seems to have an energy when I read it, even > though > > my > > > comprehension of it is poor. > > > The debate goes this way, then that way, " I disagree, I agree " . > To > > me > > > it is like, in a spiritual sense, a fan swishing over > smoldering > > > coals bringing them to life. > > > > > > With respect and Divine Love, > > > > > > Mike > > > (Mike Keenor) > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > Remember Hindus, there is no " God " in the Gita. " God " is not a > > Hindu > > > term. > > > Class Yoga > > > > > > From Moderator : Please suggest other words that represent That > > > Paramatma > > > Ram Ram > > > ------------------------------ -- > > > > > > , " sadhak_insight " > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Hari Om > > > > > > > > Oh! How nice it is to sit together and deliberate! Devotion , > > the > > > name God has infinite ways to gladden soul. Consider > clarification > > > of Mike. What he " experienced " was right. Whatever he read was > > > debated. This is to be noted. Soul knows no barriers. Conscience > > is > > > always perfect. Your direct experience is infinite times better > > than > > > learning! Gita touches your soul. You are right Mike, the > > beginning > > > of spiritual journey does not always involve God being in focus. > > You > > > search for the truth and suddenly you get changed - character, > > > habits, attitude, every thing changes for better. The same > world, > > > the same worldly people start looking different. Your focus > shifts > > > towards looking goodness in others and suddenly you realise > there > > > are people who help without expecting results. They were there > in > > > the past also, Sure. But with change in us they are seen with > > > clarity. One day, and that day is not far for any determined > > > aspirant, will come when all around us will be revealed to us as > > God > > > and God only! > > > > > > > > That revelation in fact is the goal of every human being! > > > > > > > > Jai Shree Krishna > > > > > > > > Vyas N B > > > > > > > > ---------------------------- -- > - > > > > Hari Hari! > > > > > > > > I have but two short points. > > > > > > > > 1. The issue of whether one can actually surrender to God, as > > Naga > > > > Narayana has put the issue, actually pivots around two very > > > > different conceptions of God and jivas. The spiritual teacher > > > > (Swami Ramsukdasji) whose disciples host this discussion, it > is > > my > > > > understanding that he has apparently taught that individuality > > is > > > an > > > > illusion of the material world, and upon liberation, we merge > > with > > > > the impersonal Supreme. I come from a line of teaching that > > > > considers individual identity to be eternal, and that each > > > > individual has an eternal relationship with the Supreme > > Personality > > > > of Godhead. With the second conception, the logic leading to > the > > > > conclusion of surrender and Bhakti is apparent. Generally, I've > > > > found that those following first line of teaching consider the > > > > second to be incorrect, and vice versa. I don't really see a > > > > purpose in debating the point here; actually, I think everyone > > > > should pursue God in the way that they can believe in, and > > > > hopefully those of us who are farther can come nearer to God > > > through > > > > devotion to our respective paths. > > > > > > > > 2. I mainly use a translation of the Bhagavad Gita that is well > > > > respected by religious studies departments and sanskrit > scholars > > > > throughout the world, what to speak of Vaishnava religious > > > > authorities. The translator comes from an established line of > > > > teachers, and in his life he was an exemplary devotee: A.C. > > > > Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. It is readily available online > > with > > > > sanskrit, word-by-word translations. I have not referred > > > > to other's translations as possessing a " serious limitation, " > but > > > > rather have accepted your respected teacher's translations > > because > > > I > > > > know they are sacred to you. > > > > > > > > This is a very nice opportunity to learn about different > > > conceptions > > > > of God, and to use important questions (like that of > surrender) > > to > > > > delve deeper into our own philosophies. I hope it can be done > > > > respectfully, now that we are aware of our philosophical > > > > differences. I think there is still much held in common. > > > > > > > > Hare Krishna, > > > > Hannah Sandal > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------- -- > > > > How about saying surrender to ALMIGHTY who controls OUR > > Natural > > > > Habitat including Environmemt and Human Evolution itself? > > > > > > > > Mohan K Muju > > > > > > > > ---------------------------- -- > - > > > > , " sadhak_insight " > > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > What is " surrendering " ? > > > > > > > > > > Samarpana – Bhakti – God > > > > > > > > > > No one can " surrender " to God. If something receives your > > > > > surrenderance, then it is NOT God. Surrendering involves two > > > > > distinct parties – one superior and the other inferior, both > > > being > > > > > limited owing to their mutually exclusive distinction from > each > > > > > other. One who surrenders is not a Bhakta and one who is > > > > surrendered > > > > > to is not God either. One who surrenders is at worst a slave > > and > > > > one > > > > > who receives a surrenderer is at best a king. Note that both > a > > > > slave > > > > > and a king are nothing but slaves – individuals with no > > freedom. > > > > > Note that all the distinctions are arased between a Bhakta > and > > > > God. > > > > > The very meaning of Bhakti is the mitigation of all > alienation > > of > > > > a > > > > > person with ereference to God. The Bhakta is as liberated as > > The > > > > God > > > > > as such due to the lack of all alienating notions between > the > > > two. > > > > > Therefore, the very term " surrender " is a fallacy in > spiritual > > > > > practice because the word has the popular cannotation > > of " giving > > > > > away something " or " sacrificing something " as if by force or > > by > > > no > > > > > other choice. > > > > > > > > > > The sanskrit term " Samarpana " is often referred to as " to > > > > surrender " > > > > > since that is probably the best english word > > available. " Arpana " > > > > > means denying ownership of something; " samarpana " is denying > > the > > > > > very ownership in all respects – in actions, in thoughts as > > well > > > > as > > > > > in desires. The very denial is the only route to mitigate the > > > > > differences between subject and object, objects and objects, > > and > > > > God > > > > > and objects. All the distinctions between God, subject and > > > objects > > > > > are rooted in the perceived notion of ownership as such. > > > Observing > > > > > the illusive and evasive nature of one's ego to hang on to > one > > or > > > > > the other ownership, understanding the mythical unreality in > > all > > > > > such notions, and realizing that all our miseries are in fact > > > > rooted > > > > > in such notions as such is the sound process of purging all > the > > > > > notions of ownership within to liberate oneself to merge > with > > the > > > > > Universal Reality with no constraints or conditions of any > > kind. > > > > > Therefore, " samarpana " is the path of devotion to reach the > > > > Absolute > > > > > Freedom. There is nothing given up in samarpana. There is > > nothing > > > > > transacted in samarpana. There is nothing attained in > > samarpana. > > > > Not > > > > > seeking to give up, transact and attain is called Bhakti. > > > > > > > > > > If surrendering is understood synanymous with samarpana, the > > very > > > > > act is the only Knowledge. Anything else is just > information. > > The > > > > > Bhakti (Samarpana) is the very Karma (The Act). The Karma is > > the > > > > > very Gnyana (The Knowledge). Thinking that the mind is the > the > > > > > domain of knowledge is a huge misnomer. Understanding that > the > > > > mind > > > > > is part of knowledge and knowledge is not part of mind is > the > > > true > > > > > knowledge. That is the true surrender (samarpana) from mind's > > > > > perspective. A Samarpita Manas (truly surrendered mind) is > The > > > God > > > > > as such where the notion of surrendering never raises again. > A > > > > > samarpita manas cannot face any kind of " brick walls " – > > removing > > > > all > > > > > such obstacles is the role of logic (informational analysis – > > > > > Sankhya); NOT to create one! I would not agree that if > somebody > > > > > believes to be in Bhakti when one cannot think further as > Para > > > > > Bhakti. Para Bhakti incorporates proactive understanding > > (karma- > > > > > purita-gnyana) and realized acitivities (Gnyana-purita- > karma). > > > The > > > > > verses quoted by Mr. Keenor often tend to project variant > > notions > > > > > regarding Karma, Gnyana and Bhakti – but, only in their > > isolated > > > > > context. As I understand, Bhagavad Gita cannot create any > such > > > > > isolation. Everything is THAT alone in all respects though > they > > > > may > > > > > appear as variant within one's perception. Breaking the > > barriers > > > > of > > > > > such perceptional isolation within one's mind is the role of > > the > > > > > logical observation (Sankhya). Sankhya cannot bring Gnyana – > > > logic > > > > > in any form cannot bring Knowledge. Sankhya becomes Gnyana > in > > its > > > > > purity. So does the Karma. So does the Bhakti. > > > > > > > > > > Tasyai tapo damah karmeti pratishtha – the Shraddha > > incorporating > > > > > focussed knowledge, controled desire and guided action is the > > > > > foundation for Samarpana. > > > > > > > > > > Vedah sarvangani – all the sources of perception > (understanding > > > > all > > > > > perceptions to be as such without any trace of ownership) is > > the > > > > > domain of Samarpana. > > > > > > > > > > Satyamayatanam – to be The Truth, The Absolute, The Peace, > The > > > > Bliss > > > > > … to be ONE is THE SAMARPANA. > > > > > > > > > > Therefore, I canot agree that TRUE SURRENDER (THE SAMARPANA) > > can > > > > > raise out of an incapable mind. It is the state of a very > > capable > > > > > mind. > > > > > > > > > > Respects. > > > > > > > > > > Naga Narayana. > > > > > -------------------------- -- > -- > > -- > > > > > > > > > > Re Sadhak Hannah's views > > > > > > > > > > I am indeed touched by the fact that inspite of the very > > serious > > > > > limitation of the translations of the verses adopted by you, > > some > > > > of > > > > > the conclusions arrived at by you were exceptionally > accurate. > > > You > > > > > may indeed call that grace of God and power and glory of > Gita > > and > > > > of > > > > > your devotion to God. . > > > > > > > > > > However let me tell you that had you had at your disposal > > > English > > > > > Edition of Saadhak Sanjeevani written by Swamiji Ramsukhdasji > > > > > Maharaj , the entire interpretations of the verses would have > > > > taken > > > > > a divine shape. > > > > > > > > > > For example what you called as " regulative principles of > > Bhakti > > > > > Yoga " is in fact " constant practice of (chanting etc) divine > > > > name > > > > > with equanimity having God as the aim " in 12:9 ! > > > > > > > > > > 12:10 would have read - > > > > > > > > > > " If you are unable to practice as above , be thou intent on > > > > > performing ordained actions for Me , thus doing self less > > actions > > > > > for my sake, thou shalt achieve perfection " > > > > > > > > > > The knowledge referred in Ch 12:12 is not Jnana Yoga in > > > entirety. > > > > > Here knowledge means mainly reading of scriptures, having > > > interest > > > > > in what is body, nature,self etc only and merely knowing ( > not > > > > > realising or experiencing completely) that you are separate > > from > > > > > your body etc- in other words in very limited sense only ( as > > > > there > > > > > is no yoga -equanimity attached with that). Here in > > > > 12:12 " practice " > > > > > referred is mere practice not " practice with equanimity > having > > > God > > > > > as aim " referred in 12:9 !! > > > > > > > > > > Similarly there is a difference between " practice with > > > Equanimity > > > > > (abhyaas yogen)with keeping God as aim " referred in 12:9 and > > > > > mere " practice " referred in 12:10 (abhyaasepyasamartho) etc > > etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Similarly 12:12 does not entirely refer Karma Yoga but only > one > > > > > portion of that viz renunciation of fruits Karma Yoga is not > > > > wholly > > > > > and exclusively renunciation of fruits only!. Here > > > > > actually " renunciation " (tyaag) is more glorified > > > > than " renunciation > > > > > with equanimity " . > > > > > > > > > > Thus, Here in 12:12 an eternal principle gets revealed - > > " every > > > > > renunciation results in instant peace " - > > > > > > > > > > " tyagatchhantimanantaram " > > > > > > > > > > Now this principle is applicable in every department of life, > > > > > everywhere universally! > > > > > > > > > > Differences are subtle but when you practice or implement or > > try > > > > to > > > > > grasp they become extremely relevant and almost touch your > > soul. > > > > > After all these verses are the voice of God ! ! Gita is a > > mirror, > > > > as > > > > > is your attitude so does it look ! ! > > > > > > > > > > Hence I agree with you that there is a need of a perfect > > > > translation > > > > > of these verses. They make sea of a difference.Here there is > > > > > importance of writer! > > > > > > > > > > Jai Shree Krishna > > > > > > > > > > Vyas N B > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------- -- > -- > > -- > > > - > > > > > Hare Krishna > > > > > > > > > > Re Sadhak Mike " s Query > > > > > > > > > > As mentioned in the verses below, there are two kinds of > > > > devotional > > > > > service: the way of regulative principles and the way of full > > > > > attachment in love to the Supreme Personality of Godhead. For > > > > those > > > > > who are actually not able to follow the principles of Krishna > > > > > consciousness it is better to cultivate knowledge, because by > > > > > knowledge one can be able to understand his real position. > > > > Gradually > > > > > knowledge will develop to the point of meditation. By > > meditation > > > > one > > > > > can be able to understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead > > by a > > > > > gradual process. There are processes which make one > understand > > > > that > > > > > one himself is the Supreme, and that sort of meditation is > > > > preferred > > > > > if one is unable to engage in devotional service. If one is > not > > > > able > > > > > to meditate in such a way, then there are prescribed duties, > as > > > > > enjoined in the Vedic literature, for the Brahmanas, > Ksatriyas, > > > > > Vaisyas and Sudras, which we shall find in the last chapter > of > > > > > Bhagavad-Gita. But in all cases, one should give up the > result > > or > > > > > fruits of labor; this means to employ the result of karma > for > > > some > > > > > good cause. > > > > > > > > > > In summary, to reach the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the > > > > highest > > > > > goal, there are two processes: one process is by gradual > > > > > development, and the other process is direct. Devotional > > service > > > > in > > > > > Krishna consciousness is the direct method, and the other > > method > > > > > involves renouncing the fruits of one's activities. Then one > > can > > > > > come to the stage of knowledge, then to the stage of > > meditation, > > > > > then to the stage of understanding the Supersoul, and then > to > > the > > > > > stage of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. One may take > > either > > > > the > > > > > step-by-step process or the direct path. The direct process > is > > > not > > > > > possible for everyone; therefore the indirect process is also > > > > good. > > > > > It is, however, to be understood that the indirect process > is > > not > > > > > recommended for Arjuna, because he is already at the stage of > > > > loving > > > > > devotional service to the Supreme Lord. It is for others, > who > > are > > > > > not at this stage; for them the gradual process of > > renunciation, > > > > > knowledge, meditation and realization of the Supersoul and > > > Brahman > > > > > should be followed. But as far as Bhagavad-Gita is > concerned, > > it > > > > is > > > > > the direct method that is stressed. Everyone is advised to > > take > > > to > > > > > the direct method and surrender unto the Supreme Personality > of > > > > > Godhead, Krishna > > > > > > > > > > Your Servant > > > > > > > > > > Janardhana Dasa > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------- -- > -- > > -- > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > Dear friends > > > > > Vyas ji has ideas on Karma and Zyan and Bhakti and Yoga. In > the > > > > > Bhagwat Gita, these are soul of understanding. I will try to > > > > explain > > > > > it in the following way: > > > > > > > > > > Take example of person(s) going from Delhi to Mumbai. In this > > > > > journey of self realization, everyone is in an act of > > loneliness, > > > > > birth and death in cycles after cycles, and wants to realize > > > truth > > > > > about him/herself. And when this destination is fixed, YOGA > > > > starts. > > > > > YOGA is placing one on a path of self realization. > > > > > > > > > > When an individual starts journey in search of truth, he > does > > it > > > > by > > > > > his/her natural instinct whatever it is. This knowledge of > the > > > > > swabhaav is called ZYAN. Because this ZYAN is directed to > > (YOGA) > > > > the > > > > > path of self realization, it is called ZYAN YOGA. Has this > ZYAN > > > > been > > > > > is not in a direction of self realization, that would be > > VISHAYA. > > > > > > > > > > By knowing the swbhaav, when individual works this is called > > > > KARMA. > > > > > At every new milestone, the swbhaav gets more pure, and this > is > > > > > called KARMA YOGA. But when individual does not know his/her > > > > > swbhaav and works not in the direction of self realization, > > this > > > > is > > > > > VYAVSAYA (from Vishaya). > > > > > > > > > > When an individual is working all alone and reaches a stage > of > > > > self > > > > > realization, this is ZYAN YOGA and KARMA YOGA. In Buddhist > > > > > tradition, this way is called HINAYAN (small vehicle). It has > > > > > advantage because an individual follows TAPAH (endurance), > and > > > > > learns by mistakes, and quite clear in mind. In earlier > > periods, > > > > all > > > > > Yogis used to stay alone and meditate in forests. Krishna is > > > > Himself > > > > > this example. > > > > > > > > > > In case when an individual finds another soul, and joined > with > > > it, > > > > > this togetherness is called BHAKTI. And when the people in > > group > > > > > work and knowing right way, this is called BHAKTI YOGA. > > Buddhist > > > > > called it MAHA YAN (large vehicle). In this case, if Bhakti > is > > > > with > > > > > right Guru, the individual keeps following and reaches > > > > destination. > > > > > This is BHAKTI YOGA and KARMA YOGA. The ZYAN YOGA is there > but > > > not > > > > > relevant because the right path of GURU is enough. SoorDas > and > > > > > TulsiDas are example of saints who never lived in forests and > > > > never > > > > > fought war like Arjun, and they by their mind only followed > Ram > > > > and > > > > > Krishna. Zyan is there but not has any effect. It is like > > > > milistones > > > > > (Kota, Baroda) falling on the way from Delhi to Mumbai, and > the > > > > > passenger like TulsiDas never get it noticed. > > > > > > > > > > Arjun is the one who is together with Krishna (BHAKTI YOGA). > He > > > > got > > > > > explanation of every stage in the journey of self > realization > > or > > > > > self transformation to truth (ZYAN YOGA), and had to fight a > > war > > > > > like living in dangerous forest (tapah, endurance) and > staying > > at > > > > > course is KARMA YOGA. All three. > > > > > > > > > > Buddha says same thing in other words > > > > > Buddham Sharam Gachhami = " Go " to Truth (Karma YOGA) > > > > > Dhamman sharnam Gachhami'= by following your " self nature " > > (Zyan > > > > > YOGA) > > > > > Sangham sharnam Gachhami = go " together " (Bhakti YOGA) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Best regards > > > > > K G > > > > > (Krishna Gopal) > > > > > -------------------------- -- > - > > > > > > > > > > -Shree Hari- > > > > > > > > > > Clarification: > > > > > > > > > > The comment on BG 3.3 was not mine but was on the Bhagavad > > Gita I > > > > was > > > > > reading on line. Thus of course this does not change the > > wisdom > > > of > > > > > the > > > > > comments posted. > > > > > Surrender comment was based on personal experience, (and > that > > of > > > > > the man I met in strange circumstances). We both had one > thing > > in > > > > > common and that was to find the truth, (spiritual truth, not > > > > > necessarily God focussed). > > > > > I can only speak from my heart, (he has his own journey). > But > > one > > > > > reached a point where every perception one had fell away. A > > state > > > > of > > > > > absolute bewilderment. Of course I know now that the brick > wall > > > > was > > > > > my > > > > > own ignorance. But I did then realize that I needed Divine > > help. > > > > > The early Chapters that I have read seem to be around these > > > > thoughts > > > > > of mine. > > > > > I have also learned that character change does happen. One > does > > > > help > > > > > others without wanting for reward, in fact being at one with > > > those > > > > > that suffer. And of course always the intellect, but not so > > > > blinded > > > > > by > > > > > the ego, knowing ultimately there is GOD. > > > > > This seems to fit in general with the comments, have read. > > > > > I know there is much for me to learn. > > > > > > > > > > With respects and Divine Love. > > > > > > > > > > Mike Keenor > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------- -- > -- > > -- > > > -- > > > > - > > > > > , " sadhak_insight " > > > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Hari Om > > > > > > > > > > > > Re Sadhak Mike " s Query > > > > > > > > > > > > Let us now talk about surrender. Your 2nd learned comment > is > > > > > indeed > > > > > > soul touching and is almost perfect. However as stated in > > > > previous > > > > > > episode the Bhakti Yoga is independent and therefore the > > > > surrender > > > > > > doesnot begin when the limitation of mind is realised. It > is > > a > > > > > > principle that mind and intellect cannot reach God because > > both > > > > > are > > > > > > part of Nature (Prakrati) and God is beyond the Nature. > > > > However > > > > > > you can always change the focus ( direction) of mind and > > > > intellect > > > > > > from the world to the God. That in itself is more than > > > > sufficient. > > > > > > > > > > > > Bhakti Yoga begins with the outlook - " I am of the God > and > > > only > > > > > God > > > > > > is mine, and nobody else is mine " and attains perfection > when > > > > you > > > > > > start seeing/ experiencing presence of God everywhere. Read > > > > > > carefully the process differences given by me in the > previous > > > > > > edition. There are dozens or more such differences but due > to > > > > > space > > > > > > constraints I have given briefly. They are really > important > > > > from > > > > > > spiritual practice point of view. > > > > > > > > > > > > From your second comment it has been revealed to me that > you > > > > have > > > > > > set the goal for yourself to feel the presence of God > > > > everywhere. > > > > > > Believe me that goal is perfect- It is ultimate and real > > Bhakti > > > > > Yoga- > > > > > > let me tell you. " VASUDEVAH SARVAM " – All this is God > (Gita > > > > > 7:19) > > > > > > is the final conclusion of Gita and the surrender is the > > > > ultimate > > > > > > weapon which an aspirant has in his spiritual journey- > there > > is > > > > no > > > > > > doubt on these two. In fact Gita begins with surrender ( > BG > > 2:7 > > > > > > quoted by you too) and ends with surrender (18:66). > > > > > > > > > > > > God starts conversation talking about " WORRYING " to Arjuna > ( > > > > 2:11) > > > > > > and ends his conversation telling Arjuna not to worry( > > 18:66). > > > > I > > > > > > would suggest you read " Saadhak Sanjeevani " a Treatise on > > Gita > > > > by > > > > > > Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj, the English Edition of which > is > > > > also > > > > > > there. That will solve translation confusions of the verses > > > > > forever > > > > > > for you and it is so vast, comprehensive and clear that > > merely > > > > by > > > > > > reading you may change your perceptions and it shall > enthuse > > > you > > > > > in > > > > > > your journey in a miraculous manner. If I get address I may > > > > ensure > > > > > > you get latest copy of the same by post. In my eyes it is > an > > > > > > essential commentary and the ULTIMATE ON GITA. No other > > > > detailed > > > > > > commentary has the depth of cross reference and can even > be a > > > > > > semblance of it- it is my experience. It is the best on the > > > > > subject, > > > > > > written by a God realised soul exclusively to help > aspirants > > > > only. > > > > > > > > > > > > Hope I have been able to provide clarity. Everything which > I > > > > write > > > > > > is from the books and discourses of Swamiji only. Only the > > > > > > translation or presentation is mine. Pls do write if you > > need > > > > > more > > > > > > clarification . > > > > > > > > > > > > Jai Shree Krishna > > > > > > > > > > > > Vyas N B > > > > > > ------------------------ -- > -- > > -- > > > -- > > > > -- > > > > > > , " sadhak_insight " > > > > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hari Hari! > > > > > > > In considering this current conversation, I looked to > > chapter > > > > > > twelve > > > > > > > of the Gita, entitled " Devotional Service " . Please > forgive > > my > > > > > > > quoting of several verses: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 12.6-7 But those who worship Me, giving up all their > > > > activities > > > > > > > unto Me and being devoted to Me without deviation, > engaged > > in > > > > > > > devotional service and always meditating upon Me, having > > > fixed > > > > > > their > > > > > > > minds upon Me, O son of Pritha for them I am the swift > > > > deliverer > > > > > > > from the ocean of birth and death. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > BG 12.8: Just fix your mind upon Me, the Supreme > > Personality > > > > of > > > > > > > Godhead, and engage all your intelligence in Me. Thus > you > > > will > > > > > > live > > > > > > > in Me always, without a doubt. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > BG 12.9: My dear Arjuna, O winner of wealth, if you > cannot > > > fix > > > > > > your > > > > > > > mind upon Me without deviation, then follow the > regulative > > > > > > > principles of bhakti-yoga. In this way develop a desire > to > > > > > attain > > > > > > Me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > BG 12.10: If you cannot practice the regulations of > bhakti- > > > > yoga, > > > > > > > then just try to work for Me, because by working for Me > you > > > > will > > > > > > > come to the perfect stage. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > BG 12.11: If, however, you are unable to work in this > > > > > > consciousness > > > > > > > of Me, then try to act giving up all results of your > work > > and > > > > > try > > > > > > to > > > > > > > be self-situated. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > BG 12.12: If you cannot take to this practice, then > engage > > > > > > yourself > > > > > > > in the cultivation of knowledge. Better than knowledge, > > > > however, > > > > > > is > > > > > > > meditation, and better than meditation is renunciation > of > > the > > > > > > fruits > > > > > > > of action, for by such renunciation one can attain peace > of > > > > mind. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Here, Krishna outlines the options available to us, and > > > > > encourages > > > > > > > them to pursue them to the best of our ability. He says > > that > > > > > > > cultivation of knolwedge (JYoga) and renunciation of the > > > > fruits > > > > > > of > > > > > > > action (KYoga) are both beneficial on the path towards > > > > > liberation > > > > > > > because they help us develop a " desire to attain " God. > We > > can > > > > > use > > > > > > > our intelliegence to understand the philosophy of God, > and > > we > > > > > > > can use our ability to renounce to practice controlling > our > > > > > mind. > > > > > > > Bhakti yoga provides principles to practice loving > service > > to > > > > > God. > > > > > > > We can see in 12.6-7 that the goal of all of this is to > be > > > > 100% > > > > > > > fixed in a relationship of devotional service with the > > > Supreme > > > > > > Lord. > > > > > > > It is at this point that God provides liberation to > those > > who > > > > > are > > > > > > > devoted to him. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One final note, is that we are perhaps working from > > different > > > > > > > translations. I am of the opinion that each person should > > > > study > > > > > > the > > > > > > > authors of the translations, and the quality of different > > > > > > > translations, and find the one that is most in line with > > > their > > > > > own > > > > > > > purposes. The differences arise from the difference > between > > > > > > > English and Sanskrit: there are words in Sanskrit that > have > > > > many > > > > > > > meanings, and these meanings are dependant upon grammar, > > > > > spelling, > > > > > > > and context. Translation into English is not always > > > > > > straightforward, > > > > > > > and frequently depends upon the background and purpose > of > > the > > > > > > > translator. You'll find, for example, a very different > > > > > translation > > > > > > > of the Gita used for learning Sanskrit in American > > > > universities. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > your servant, > > > > > > > H. Sandal > > > > > > > (Hannah Sandal) > > > > > > > ---------------------- -- > -- > > > > > > > Dear Sadhakas, Namaste! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The essence of the verses mentioned by Mike Keenor has > been > > > > > > captured > > > > > > > in his own words. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I would like to suggest, however, that we don't need to > > > > consider > > > > > > any > > > > > > > one path being superior to other paths toward Self-God > > > > > > Realization. > > > > > > > If Self-God realization were to mean freedom from > sorrows > > and > > > > to > > > > > > > live in unconditional Love serving all, it is all the > more > > > > > > important > > > > > > > to see all paths being equal even if they differ in their > > > > > > > approaches. If the ultimate results are the same, there > is > > no > > > > > need > > > > > > > to compare any paths as being superior or inferior. > > Krishnaji > > > > > may > > > > > > > have said only to emphasize that all can attain such > > freedom > > > > > even > > > > > > if > > > > > > > they are not prone to one or the other paths. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We need to see that God is not separate from such a > Gyani, > > or > > > > > > Karma- > > > > > > > Yogi or Devotee! Gita says God is Devotion in Bhakta, > > Truth- > > > > > Being- > > > > > > > Self in Gyani and self-less actions in Karm-Yogi. > > Ultimately > > > > > that > > > > > > is > > > > > > > what happens to Bhakta(Devotee), Karma-Yogi(person of > > > selfless > > > > > > > action), and Gyani(Self-realized). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Some of us are naturally inclined to do Karmas! To make > > their > > > > > > Karmas > > > > > > > not binding and yet serve those who are in need, Gita > > > > prescribes > > > > > > the > > > > > > > Karma-Yoga meaning self-less actions. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > By performing actions without assuming doership, guided > by > > > > > > > righteousness, frees one from Bondage due to karmas. > Unless > > > > one > > > > > > has > > > > > > > total devotion while performing actions and total > > surrender > > > of > > > > > > > results to God, one just cannot do such self-less > actions. > > > > Thus > > > > > > > Karma-Yogi is also doing Bhakti, leading to freedom > (moksha) > > > > from > > > > > > > sorrows. He will eventually realize his true nature > being > > > Sat- > > > > > Chit- > > > > > > > Ananda(Supreme Consciousness, not an individual). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In the same way one who is given to inquiry, is a Truth > > > > Seeker. > > > > > > > He/She will in time become Truth Lover by seeking > nothing > > but > > > > > > Truth. > > > > > > > Upon experiencing glimpses of truth in daily life, the > > > > devotion > > > > > to > > > > > > > Truth becomes intense. So again such a truth lover is > also > > > > > devotee- > > > > > > > bhakta of Truth, same as God and then attains knowledge > of > > > who > > > > > > > he/she is in reality and thus perfection! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In my experience, one just doesn't follow only one path, > > > > rather > > > > > > one > > > > > > > integrates all such paths and God given resoureces! As > we > > all > > > > > > know, > > > > > > > no one can remain without actions, and all of us have > > quality > > > > of > > > > > > > devotion at least in something we do! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In the times we are living at present, it is more > > appropriate > > > > to > > > > > > > perform Karmas with the best of one's ability to serve > > > > humanity, > > > > > > > assuming no-doership thereof and to accept or rather > > welcome > > > > > > results > > > > > > > of such actions. This will automatically leads one to > > wonder > > > > and > > > > > > > inquire about the nature of God, world, and oneself. Upon > > > > > > > contemplation of all three, one will realize the truth > of > > > them > > > > > and > > > > > > > eventually get established in True Self. Out of such > > > knowledge > > > > > one > > > > > > > becomes a mystic, so to speak, and his/her existence is > > > > aligned > > > > > > with > > > > > > > Totality or wholeness of Being in which individuality is > > > > > absorbed. > > > > > > > God is just the name to such Experience of Being > > everything, > > > > > which > > > > > > > is Absolute Existence and thus Ananda. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Namaskars...Pratap > > > > > > > (Pratap Bhatt) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------- -- > -- > > -- > > > -- > > > > -- > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " sadhak_insight " > > > > > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hari Om > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You have sought comments on certain verses of Gita > > dealing > > > > > with > > > > > > > > Jnana Yoga (JY) , Karma Yoga (KY) and Bhakti Yoga > (BY) > > and > > > > on > > > > > > two > > > > > > > > learned comments, that formulated your thinking. I > shall > > > > > briefly > > > > > > > > take you through the best on the subject to impart > total > > > > > > clarity. > > > > > > > > The answer shall be in minimum two installments of one > > page > > > > > > each, > > > > > > > > maximum three. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > First Bhagavad Gita 3:3. The correct translation of the > > > > verse > > > > > is > > > > > > > as > > > > > > > > under - " O Sinless Arjuna, in this world a two fold > > path > > > > > has > > > > > > > been > > > > > > > > enunciated by Me before, the Path of Knowledge (Jnana > > Yoga > > > > or > > > > > > > > Sankhya Yoga) for men of renunciation and the Path of > > > > Action > > > > > > for > > > > > > > > men of action (Karma Yoga) " . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The correct translation of BG 3:7 is - " But he who > > controls > > > > > his > > > > > > > > senses through the mind, O Arjuna, and engages himself > in > > > > the > > > > > > path > > > > > > > > of action, with the organs of action and sense, without > > > > being > > > > > > > > attached, is superior. " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your comment that - " The karmi and jnani are different > in > > > > name > > > > > > > only. > > > > > > > > Actually, persons engaged in karma become pure hearted > > > > jnanis > > > > > by > > > > > > > > their actions. And the jnanis become liberated by > > > bhakti. " - > > > > > > > > > > can > > > > > > > > not be said to be entirely correct. Because it pre > > suposses > > > > > that > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > outcome or the end result of these exercises > is " purity > > of > > > > > > heart " > > > > > > > > while actually the end result of both of them > > > > is " liberation " . > > > > > > > > Further the comment that they are different names only > is > > > > > right > > > > > > > from > > > > > > > > only end result perspective and certainly not from the > > > > process > > > > > > > > followed by them and by the attitude of a Jnana Yogi > and > > a > > > > > Karma > > > > > > > > Yogi. (Refer last para of this edition). Secondly this > > > > comment > > > > > > > > presumes that Bhakti is necessary for liberation, but > > > > actually > > > > > > > > Bhakti gets you ever increasing love of God in > addition > > to > > > > > > > > liberation. Your translation also of the verse does > not > > > > bring > > > > > > out > > > > > > > > Karma Yoga clearly and gets rather tilted towards > bhakti > > > > when > > > > > > you > > > > > > > > refer devotional service. Here are some good > revelations. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In this verse the term " loke " stands for " in this > > world " . > > > > > Here > > > > > > > only > > > > > > > > two yogas (paths) have been described, not three. > Bhakti > > > > Yoga > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > absent here. Reason is that while Jnana Yoga and > Karma > > > Yoga > > > > > > > > are " laukik " (worldly – beliefs/paths to be practiced > in > > > > > > relation > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > the world and worldly things), the Bhakti Yoga > > > > is " alaukik " > > > > > > > > (beyond this world - divine, special path, a > belief/path > > to > > > > be > > > > > > > > practiced in relation to God). Refer also discussion > > below > > > > > > dealing > > > > > > > > with perishable/imperishable - both of which elements > are > > > > > > worldly > > > > > > > > only. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The term " nishtha " stands for Equanimity, which can be > > > > either > > > > > > > > attained through the path of knowledge or through path > of > > > > > > action. > > > > > > > > (There is very little need of equanimity in fact in > > Bhakti > > > > > > Yoga) – > > > > > > > > Refer distinction made by God in Gita 2:39. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Corresponding to these two paths there are two types of > > > > > purushas > > > > > > > > (men) – Gita 15:16 – one Akshar (Immortal self) and > > > > > two " Kshar " > > > > > > > > (mortal world). To remain equanimous in success or > > failure, > > > > or > > > > > > > > profits or losses (dualities) etc. of the perishable is > > > > Karma > > > > > > > Yoga, > > > > > > > > while having disinclination for the perishable and > being > > > > > > > established > > > > > > > > in imperishable (self) is Sankhya or Jnana Yoga. But > > above > > > > > these > > > > > > > two > > > > > > > > there is the Supreme Person who is beyond the > > perishable, > > > > > and > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > superior to the imperishable, called as Paramatma > (God) > > in > > > > the > > > > > > > > scriptures and Veda (Gita 15:18). Thus a whole hearted > > > > > surrender > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > God, is called Discipline of Devotion (Bhakti Yoga). In > > > > Karma > > > > > > Yoga > > > > > > > > there is predominance of perishable, in Sankhya Yoga > > there > > > > is > > > > > > > > predominance of imperishable and in Bhakti Yoga there > is > > > > > > > > predominance of God. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The state of " nishtha " (Equanimity) can be attained by > > > > > strivers, > > > > > > > > either through knowledge or through Action, but > > > > identification > > > > > > > with > > > > > > > > the God, is not their own (nishtha). In Sankhya state, > > > > > strivers > > > > > > > > experience distinctly, the existence of their own > > selves, > > > as > > > > > > well > > > > > > > > as, that of the world and try to cut asunder the > affinity > > > > for > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > world. A Karma Yogi offers to the world, everything > > > > (including > > > > > > > even > > > > > > > > his body), that he has derived from it and removes > > affinity > > > > > > from > > > > > > > > the world. In this way both of them get established in > > > their > > > > > > true > > > > > > > > form – the self. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Neither think others as evil doers, nor wish evil to > > others > > > > > nor > > > > > > do > > > > > > > > evil to others- with this outlook " Karma Yoga " begins. > > > > Nothing > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > mine, I need nothing and I have to do nothing for > > myself – > > > > by > > > > > > > > accepting this truth " Jnana (Sankhya) Yoga " begins. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The beauty is that in both the paths of JY and KY > there > > is > > > > no > > > > > > need > > > > > > > > of even thinking about/ focusing/ accepting the > > existence > > > of > > > > > God > > > > > > > at > > > > > > > > all. Both JYs and KYs get liberated easily without > even > > > > > > imagining > > > > > > > > about God. It is only in BY that God comes into picture > > > > right > > > > > > from > > > > > > > > beginning. In both JY and KY the God is optional not > at > > all > > > > > > > > compulsory even upto the final stage. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You, Mike has presumed an order of KY first, then JY > and > > > > then > > > > > BY > > > > > > > as > > > > > > > > the last. Gita does not to that view. In > Gita > > it > > > > is > > > > > > JY, > > > > > > > > then KY (superior to JY) and then BY (best ). However > all > > > > > three > > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > Independent ways of liberation. If you are determined > > then > > > > > you > > > > > > > need > > > > > > > > not take another or additional route to continue your > > > > journey, > > > > > > > > unless when you want love of God also. All three get > you > > > > > > > > liberation. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The aforesaid orders therefore are from comfort point > of > > > > view > > > > > > only. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now coming to how they are different from process > point > > of > > > > > view. > > > > > > > In > > > > > > > > JY you use your power of " knowing " , in KY your power > > > > > of " doing " > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > in BY your power of belief/acceptance. In JY your > > > conscience > > > > > is > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > guiding force, in KY it is action and in BY it is > > emotions > > > > of > > > > > > > > faith/belief. In JY you depend upon self, in KY upon > duty > > > > and > > > > > in > > > > > > > BY > > > > > > > > upon God. In JY you renounce ego, in KY " desires " and > in > > BY > > > > > the > > > > > > > > mineness with the world. In JY you eliminate ego, in > KY > > you > > > > > > > > modify/purify ego and in BY you change your ego. In > JY > > you > > > > > > become > > > > > > > > equal to God, in KY near to God and in BY indivisible > > with > > > > > God. > > > > > > A > > > > > > > JY > > > > > > > > is useful to himself, a KY is useful to the world and > a > > BY > > > > to > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > God. In JY your desire to " know something " is > > extinguished, > > > > in > > > > > > > > KY " to do something " and in BY to get something. In JY > > you > > > > > > > renounce > > > > > > > > the doership first, in KY you renounce > the " enjoyership " > > > and > > > > > in > > > > > > BY > > > > > > > > you renounce the " mineness " with the worldly people. > In > > JY > > > > you > > > > > > get > > > > > > > > pleased by self, in KY by seeing others happy, in BY by > > > > making > > > > > > God > > > > > > > > happy.In JY you don't do anything, in KY you do for > > others > > > > > only > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > in BY you do for God. In JY you surrender the things to > > > > > Nature, > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > KY to the world and in BY to the God.In JY obstacle is > > your > > > > > ego > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > body, in KY obstacle is your attachment with worldly > > > > pleasures > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > in BY the obstacle is remaining away from God. In JY > your > > > > > karmas > > > > > > > get > > > > > > > > burnt, in KY they become " akarmas " (fruitless) and in > BY > > > > they > > > > > > > > become " divya " ( divine). In JY you don't desire > anything > > > > from > > > > > > > > anyone, in KY you fulfil desires of others and in BY > you > > > > merge > > > > > > > your > > > > > > > > desires into the desire of God. In JY you don't > consider > > > > > anyone > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > be " mine " , in KY all in the world are yours but for > > > > selfless > > > > > > > > service only, and in BY only God is yours. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Balance in next edition. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jai Shree Krishna > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Vyas N B > > > > > > > > -------------------- -- > -- > > -- > > > -- > > > > -- > > > > > -- > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > It is very interesting to read your teachings ! I > > > personally > > > > > > feel > > > > > > > > that if one can use the ' INDRIYAS' as tools, ( The > > > sensory > > > > > > > > organs ) then, one uses the eyes to its fullest - which > > > > means > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > the job of the eyes is only to report - see and > report - > > > > but, > > > > > we > > > > > > > > then remember that all the further decisions are made > by > > > the > > > > > > atma > > > > > > > or > > > > > > > > the self which is the life - and if this self is > > manifested > > > > > with > > > > > > > > desires - it does not follow the righteous path, then > the > > > > eyes > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > not to blame for reporting ! The BG is the best tool > > which > > > > > > teaches > > > > > > > > us how to use these indriyas to our betterment - not to > > > > > > > destruction > > > > > > > > with desires !! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Prapati > > > > > > > > -------------------- -- > -- > > -- > > > -- > > > > -- > > > > > -- > > > > > > - > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " sadhak_insight " > > > > > > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -Shree Hari- > > > > > > > > > I would very much appreciate any comments or > guidance > > on > > > > my > > > > > > > > thoughts > > > > > > > > > below regarding surrender, > > > > > > > > > I have listed some of the chapters plus a learned > > > comment, > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > formulated my thinking. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > BG 2.7 > > > > > > > > > " Now I am confused about my duty and have lost all > > > > composure > > > > > > > > because > > > > > > > > > of miserly weakness. In this condition I am asking > You > > to > > > > > tell > > > > > > > me > > > > > > > > for > > > > > > > > > certain what is best for me. Now I am Your disciple, > > and > > > a > > > > > soul > > > > > > > > > surrendered unto You. Please instruct me. " > > > > > > > > > BG 3.3 > > > > > > > > > The Supreme Personality of Godhead said: O sinless > > > Arjuna, > > > > I > > > > > > have > > > > > > > > > already explained that there are two classes of men > who > > > > try > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > realize > > > > > > > > > the self. Some are inclined to understand it by > > > empirical, > > > > > > > > > philosophical speculation, and others by devotional > > > > service. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A comment on 3.3 > > > > > > > > > The karmi and jnani are different in name only. > > > Actually > > > > > > > persons > > > > > > > > > engaged in karma become pure hearted jnanis by the > > > > actions. > > > > > > And > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > jnanis become liberated by bhakti. This is meaning > of > > all > > > > my > > > > > > > words. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > BG 3.7 > > > > > > > > > On the other hand, if a sincere person tries to > control > > > > the > > > > > > > active > > > > > > > > > senses by the mind and begins karma-yoga [in Krishna > > > > > > > consciousness] > > > > > > > > > without attachment, he is by far superior. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Surrender:- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From my readings it appears that with jnana , > > ultimately > > > > the > > > > > > > > > aspirant, can hit a brick wall as it were, the mind > > finds > > > > a > > > > > > > place > > > > > > > > > it cannot proceed beyond. At that point to > surrender > > to > > > > > the > > > > > > > > Divine > > > > > > > > > Lord without reservation, to no longer think in pure > > > logic > > > > > of > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > Absolute Truth, and to follow faithfully the path > that > > > > opens > > > > > > > > before > > > > > > > > > you with courage. Can open the eyes with wonder, as > the > > > > Lord > > > > > > > shows > > > > > > > > > his presence in all that is revealed, how can a soul > be > > > > > > anything > > > > > > > > but > > > > > > > > > bhakti, after such a moment of truth? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > With Respect and Divine Love, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mike > > > > > > > > > (Mike Keenor) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------ -- > -- > > -- > > > -- > > > > -- > > > > > - > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > GUIDELINES FOR POSTING A RESPONSE: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. The group is focused on the Holy Gitaji, > therefore, > > > > only > > > > > > > > > responses which further clarify the understanding of > > > > Gitaji, > > > > > > > will > > > > > > > > be > > > > > > > > > posted. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2. Making reference of Gitaji shloka is highly > > > encouraged - > > > > > > > > > at > > > > > > > > least > > > > > > > > > once in the response. Wherever possible, please > quote > > > > > Gitaji > > > > > > or > > > > > > > > > other scriptures to substantiate your response. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, > > > > > > respecting > > > > > > > > > sadhaka's time. Under no circustance the answer > should > > > > > exceed > > > > > > > say > > > > > > > > > one page at the most (500 words or so). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 4. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs > > etc. > > > > to > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > extent that they further help in understanding the > Gita > > > > > shlokas > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand > > only. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or > > > other > > > > > > > > > organizations. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 7. Complete reproduction of texts from any book is > > > > strongly > > > > > > > > > discouraged, however references may be made of the > > book > > > > or > > > > > > > author > > > > > > > > > (but not links to other sites). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 8. Kindly do not include your personal information > > such > > > as > > > > > > phone > > > > > > > > > number, address etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 9. Please do not address the response to a particular > > > > > > individual > > > > > > > > > since the message is going to the entire group. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 10. Due to the large readership, only those > responses > > > will > > > > > be > > > > > > > > posted > > > > > > > > > which are in line with the general philosophy of > taking > > > > > > Shrimad > > > > > > > > > Bhagavad Gita as the reference. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 11. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the > > posting, > > > > if > > > > > > > > content > > > > > > > > > is unclear for distribution or not directly related > to > > > the > > > > > > > > question > > > > > > > > > being asked. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 12. Please respond taking into consideration the > > novices, > > > > > > youth, > > > > > > > > > westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the > > use > > > > of > > > > > > only > > > > > > > > > Sanskrit words, rather provide the English word with > > > > > Sanskrit > > > > > > > > > bracketed wherever possible. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > MODERATOR > > > > > > > > > Ram Ram > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 14, 2008 Report Share Posted July 14, 2008 Jai Shri Krishna, To bow (Pranaam / Namaskaar) before Parmatma is his Sharanagati. Pranaam means – I am yours, so whatever you decide, is acceptable to me. " Namaskaar Se Ramdas, Karam Sabhi Kat Jaay, Jay Mile Parbrahma Mein, Aavagaman Mitaay. " – By Namaskaar, actions lose their binding power, one meets the Parmatma and is freed from the cycle of birth and death. Our culture is basically Sharanagati (surrender) oriented. A student bows before teacher, a son bows before parents, a chaste woman bows before husband, a servant bows before master, the subjects bow before king, an employee bows before employer and so on and so forth. Vyasji has beautifully explained Sharanagati with the example of a child, which is the most apt example on the subject. Actually, we are practicing Sharanagati at every stage of our life - we surrender before weather, we surrender before earthquake, we surrender before sonami waves, we surrender before volcanoes, we surrender before famines, we surrender before floods, we surrender before fire, we surrender before our family, we surrender before our employers, we surrender before the sovereign rule etc. In fact we are continuously surrendering only, since birth. Until we surrender to Parmatma, whom we belong to, we will continue shifting base. Surrendering to Parmaatma is very easy. Just as when a man sleeps, he does not have to do anything to sleep, nor does he have to make any efforts, nor does he have to remember anything, nor does he have to do any work – instead he has to just leave everything. If he leaves everything, then sleep comes on its own. Similarly, if do not take shelter of our strength (Bal), mind (Buddhi), knowledge (vidya), capability (yogyata) etc., if we do not take pride (Abhimaan) in them, then we are Sharnagat only, we do not have to do anything for that. Because, in reality every one (Jiva Matra) is Sharnagat to Parmatma. He treats every one as His own – " Sab Mam Priya, Sab Mam Upjaaye " (all are dear to Me and all are My children). But becoming SLAVE of his FALSE EGO, Jiva (embodied soul) can not surrender to Parmatma. Actually, to take pride in his own Bal, Buddhi, Vidhya, Yogyata is man's weakness, because to take help of anything is sign of weakness. However, to be Sharnagat is not weakness but reality, because Jiva is part of Parmatma only. Boasting of his capabilities, man says that I will do this, that etc., but when he can not pass urine due to some physical problem, then he runs to the doctor. Only those who become Sharnagat can make an impossible thing possible. Parmatma only is doing EVERYTHING, because He has taken us in His shelter since times immemorial. We now have to accept his Sharanagati, give our consent in his decision (Vidhaan), say yes to His yes. From His side, we are his children only – " Mamaivansho Jivaloke " . But from our side we become surrendered to the world. We do not actually have to become Sharnagat to Parmatma, but to renounce the false Sharanagati of the world – we have to correct our mistake (Bhool). Sharanagati is essence of Gitaji. If one accepts that Sharanagati, then he will be ecstatic. He will become special (Vilakshan). He will start realizing the meaning of Vedas, even without reading them. Nothing will be left for him to DO, KNOW and GET then. " Hey Naath Main Aapkaa Hoon " …. " Oh Father, I am your very own. " Narayana Narayana Rajendra J. Bohra Dear Sadaks, Until one realises by surrendering everthing that happens to him, he is still jeevathuma (embodied soul). He is far far inferior. Bhagavan in Geetha has said in one place a word, " Moodathuma " . Contemplate on it, as Bagavan is always perfect. Vasudeva Servam-- No doubt the power of Vasudev is there in all beings. But only few become saints due to sense of mineness and attachment. When these vanish, mind surrenders to God, and thereafter, inspite of living in this world, one is unattached like a lotus in water. B.Sathyanarayan -------------------------------- Everything is God and hence no surrender is required is non-sense based on my understanding. Why does Krishna say than " Maamekam saranam vraja " ? Aatmaa (embodied soul) has to surrender to Paramaatmaa (Supreme Soul). Else the words Brahman, Parabrahman, Jivaatmaa, Paramaatmaa etc. do not have any meaning at all. We are all eternal servants of the Lord and we should regain the devotional service to Him. Even Shankara prayed Bhaja Govindam and clearly said that this type of flowery speech or writing will never help when the last moment arrives. Only surrender to Govinda will help. Hence he himself surrendered to Lakshminrusimha. So, one should surrender to the Supreme Lord. This is written in the true interest of all real devotees. Daasa Mukunda. , " sadhak_insight " <sadhak_insight wrote: > > Hari Om > > Thanks. Right you are. How easily we can cross the ocean! > That is kripa (benevolence) of God! Can there be an easier thing > than surrender? Certainly not. > > Surrender and the principles of surrender, the great utility of > surrender - it is seen by us , experienced by us, realised by us > from day one as our " direct experience " > > You were as sharanagat only (surrendered) when you were born!! Can > surrender principles remain then out of direct experience?. How > blissful, how fearless, how doubtless, how worryless, how divine, > how carefree was our childhood - when we slept, played, danced, did > all sorts of notorities and bratinesses, learnt, grew and developed > in the loving arms of father and mother? Were we not then > surrendered? Yes, We were! We certainly were in surrendered mode! > > When did we doubt as a child as to whether the mother is mine? We > did not know with certainty whether our our mother is truly our > mother, but in our hearts we had no doubt. We had one belief " Mother > is Mine " . That is all we had. That is all is needed also - " God is > mine " to surrender. What other qualification we had then (when we > were children)? There is no need of any action or knowledge or > karma, or jnana (knowledge), or mind , or intellect, or wisdom, or > analysis, or ego, nothing is needed. - " Only God is mine " is > needed. And it is needed in the form of an acceptance, a > doubtless, " self " acceptance from within. > > You are absolutely right in concluding that a surrendered devotee, > as soon as he surrenders becomes worriless(nischint), becomes grief > less (nisshok), becomes doubtless (nisshank) and fearless (nirbhay). > And so remains a child! > > Why child only? What is patient in front of a doctor? What are old > people ? What is an Indian " pativrata " (devoted and dutiful) wife ? > What were traditional disciples vis a vis Gurus (spiritual guides)? > What is a loyal employee before his employer? What is a criminal > before judge? What is a weak before the powerful? All are > surrendered! > > We surrender every day before our mind, before our circumstances, > before our calls of nature, before our desires, before our > superiors , before our destiny, before our diseases, before our > death, - where do we not surrender? What is then impossibility or > shame or inferiority or unjustness about our surrendering before > the God? What is difficulty? > > What kind of " knowledge " a child has before he surrenders? What kind > of analytical research or expertise a patient has when he surrenders > before the Doctor? > > Oh ! How graceful is God ! How easy it is to surrender! How just and > equitable it is to surrender? How beneficial it is to surrender? All > ignorance vanishes. All sorrows get extinguished with roots! All > sins get destroyed! You become indivisible with God - with your > father! > > How superior is God! How merciful is our Father! How great are the > principles of surrender! How sacred is Gita - the voice of our > Father! > > Jai Shree Krishna > > Vyas N B > - > > -Shree Hari- > > Going back to to my quote in 'clarification': > > 'But one reached a point where every perception one had fell away. A > state of absolute bewilderment. Of course I know now that the brick > wall was my own ignorance. But I did then realize that I needed > Divine help'. > > After many years of meditation deep silent. Constant contemplation of > the meaning of the 'Logos', fascinated me. > Seeing through the glaring double speak of religions, pushing my > mind beyond the 'logos', (well attempting to). > Two others I have known that had come to this spiritual point turned, > to what I consider to be the fountain of great spiritual energy, > India, and took a Yoga path, I sat at the feet of a High Lama, but > slowly was drawn towards the Indian traditions. > > This site, gita talk is absolutely brilliant, I never looked for it, > it sort of came at me, and I did not 'Delete' click. > > Discussing Surrender to God, with my son, he said, " Hmm, you mean to > yielding to your true self, higher self " , " Yes " , I said. > > One could not proceed without higher guidance, one had to proceed! > This was no place to dally! > > What of Bhagavad Gita 2.7 , Arjuna was confused, so was I. > How can I surrender as a slave to that which is my higher self, that > which I find in meditation, that which radiates a sweet energy from > my heart that spells sacred love, and causes my eyes to weep sweet > gentle tears. I am not sure who does the weeping, the 'Beloved', or > my lower self. > > I will keep reading 'The Gita', and will ask questions, and I > apologize if they are Western and clumsy, but maybe my coal bucket > will someday shine, (I liked that story). > > With Respect and Divine Love, > > Mike > (Mike Keenor) > > - - > > Just an observation to correct the address " god " > In our Hindu vocabulary, PARMAATMA is word used for God. We > shouldn't use incorrect terminology. We are supposedly free from > colonialism and enslaved mentality. > Naresh Khanna > > > - -- > , " sadhak_insight " > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > Jai Shri Krishna, > > > > 'Sharanagati' (Surrender) & 'Samarpan' (offering) are two > altogether > > different terms. Sharanagati is of Self and Surrender is of things > > separate from Self. " Sharanagati " is " Self " related and " Samarpan " > > is " worldly things " related. We surrender our Karma to the God. > > > > A Sharnagat Devotee firmly believes that I am God's and God is > mine. > > A Sharanagat devotee with such a FIRM belief then surrenders > himself > > along with offering (Samarpan) all 'so called his things' to the > > God. He thereafter becomes Assured (Nischinta), Fearless > (Nirbhay), > > Grief less (Nishok), Doubtless (Nishank). He, however, does not > test > > that since I have surrendered to God, these qualities should arise > > in me. On the contrary if he finds any deficiency in himself, he > > wonders how such a deficiency has still remained. The moment he > > feels this way, then such a deficiency also alleviates. He > believes > > that my relationship with God is Unbreakable (Atoota), Whole > > (Akhanda), Permanent (Nitya). > > > > Whatever God decides (God's Vidhaan), it is purely for liberation > > (Kalyaan) of every one (Praani Matra) - if one starts seeing this > > grace (God's Kripa), then nothing remains to be done. God craves > for > > good of every one (Praani Matra) and therefore he declares " Sarva > > Dharmaan Parityajya, Mamekam Sharanam Vrija " (Gitaji 18:66) as a > > very SECRET thing. This is because God considers every one (Jeeva > > Matra) as his friend - 'Suhrahdam Sarvabhutaanam' (Gitaji 5:29) > and > > gives them the freedom to use any of Karma Yoga, Jnana Yoga or > > Bhakti Yoga to realise Him and COMPLETELY (Samoola) alleviate all > > pains (Dukha) for ever. > > > > Actually, God's grace is only reason in Kalyaan (liberation) of > Jiva > > (embodied soul). Karma Yoga, Jnana Yoga, Bhakti Yoga etc. all > these > > means are made available by God and God realised souls. Therefore > > these means are COMPLETELY DRENCHED in God's grace. > > > > Vasudev Sarvam… > > > > Narayana Narayana > > > > Rajendra J. Bohra > > ------------------------------- > > > > Namaste (Nagaji and all) > > > > Mindblowing please keep enlightening us. > > Jayesh Patel > > > > > > -------------------------------- > > Hari Om > > > > What a divine shape this deliberation is taking?Satsanga has its > own > > divinity.Thanks Naga Narainji for really relevant and crucial > inputs > > on the suject of " surrender " . > > > > ON ONE HAND > > > > There is no doubt that we are stainless, immortal, and ever > > blissful part of God and God only. There is no doubt that a Jnana > > Yogi upon achieving perfection " becomes " equal to God. There is no > > doubt that a Karma Yogi " becomes " the closest to God and a Bhakti > > Yogi " becomes " indivisible with God. Why do they reach there ? > > Because they are not inferior to God - 100 percent right.! > > > > There is also no doubt that both Liberation and Bondage are in > Mind > > only. Actually, neither is existing- all are relative terms. There > > is also no doubt that without even thinking / imagining / > accepting > > any existence of God a Jnana Yogi and a Karma Yogi can " become " as > > good as God. How can a son be inferior or superior to father? How > > can a part be different than the whole? There is no doubt that the > > fundamental principle of Gita is VASUDEVAH SARVAM - it is > > declaration of God, Gita and all Vedas. Poison is as good a > creation > > of God as is nectar. > > > > ON THE OTHER HAND > > > > There is no doubt that God in Gita declared Himself to be beyond > > Nature and superior to individual soul (Jeeva - 15:18). There is > no > > doubt that inspite of being fundamentally stainless, faultless > > fragment of God, every human being makes mistakes - to err is > human. > > There is no doubt that we all feel imperfection, deficiency, lack, > > inspite of being Son of the King of all Kings and being capable of > > getting equal or nearest to or indivisible with God! There is no > > doubt that " samarpan " and " sharangati " are totally different > terms, > > as per Gita and " surrender " is " sharanagati " not " samarpan " . There > > is no doubt that Gita starts and ends with " sharanagati " > > (surrender). There is no doubt that 18:66 is about " surrender " and > > not " samarpan " . Why 18:66 only ? Gita is full of verses where the > > surrender is glorified ( e.g. 7:14, 15:4, 7:19, > > 8:14,8:22,9:13,9:34,15:19 etc). There is no doubt that " samarpan " > is > > also used in Gita ( Ref 9:26, 9:27, 9:28, 12:6 - 12:7, 12:8, etc). > > There is no doubt that Jeeva (embodied Soul) experiences a > fiercely > > burning desire in him of getting something, doing something and > > knowing something - that is true as of date with all of us. There > is > > no doubt that we lack peace, bliss and fearlessness - at present. > > > > If you can't surrender anything because everything is God, then > you > > can't renounce or offer the ownership also or relinquish your > > rights (samarpan)of anything, because everything is God! In > > VASUDEVAH SARVAM there is neither " sharanagati " nor " samarpan " . > Who > > will do " samarpan " to whom? There is one only, there is no second > > existing! > > > > " There is also no doubt that by use of different terms, > > say " samarpan " or " sharanagati " , the basic element or process > stated > > in 18:66 doesn't change. The words are not important, they > > are " drukanya karane " as per Bhaja Govindam quoted by Naga > > Narayanaji. Words employed therefore make no difference. > Important > > is basic fact - if Jeeva (embodied Soul) is part of God, where is > > question of surrender/ samarpana/ any process? > > > > It is also true that all sense of fear, inferiority etc are not > > existing in reality - they are only in mind. It is also true that > > all scriptures, Gita, God advice Jeeva not to feel fearful, > > inferior, deficient or incapable, worried, unhappy. At the same > time > > this is also true that each saadhak or human being hits a > brickwall > > of ignorance or realises limitations of his mind during his > > spiritual journey. It is difficult to imagine any human being can > > escape the limitations of mind and intellect. The real journey > > starts therafter. > > > > The entire discussion is focused on Jeeva being part of God and > > hence being in no way inferior to God. > > > > Sure! > > > > But Jeeva (embodied soul) as of date is not equal or closest or > > part of God - he has forgotten. Inspite of being perfect, Jeeva > > feels imperfection. Inspite of needing nothing, Jeeva feels > > deficiency. Hence Gita, hence need of religion, Hence Saints, > Hence > > Satsanga, Hence " samarpana " . Hence " sharanagati " (surrender), so > > that Jeeva " becomes " (I repeat " becomes " ) equal to/nearest > > to/indivisible with God. So that Jeeva recalls his eternal > > connection with God. So that Jeeva feels perfect, faultless and > ever > > blissful. So that a lost , bewildered, sufferring son goes back > into > > the arms and shelter of his father. So that Jeeva nevers feels > > inferiority. > > > > Oh! What a beautiful experience it is to talk/ think/ deliberate > > about God, His devotees, His Voice, His Gita, His principles, His > > infinite minds and intellects, His children ! > > > > Pranaam to all > > > > Jai Shree Krishna > > > > Vyas N B > > > > -------------------------------- > > , " sadhak_insight " > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > > > Is God Superior? Am I inferior? Should I surrender to God? > > > > > > NO … and, NO … and NO. > > > > > > God is not superior to me and I am not inferior to God. Be > careful, > > > I cannot be superior to anything as such since nothing is > inferior > > > to God as such because GOD IS EVERYTHING – VASUDEVA SARVAM. > > > > > > Therefore, let me validate my initial statement further … IF I AM > > > NOT SUPERIOR TO ANYTHING THEN I AM NOT INFERIOR TO ANYTHING > > > INCLUDING GOD … else … I am inferior to everything as such > because > > > everything else remains God while I am not and therefore I > suffer. > > > An attempt to impose a superior position to oneself while > actually > > > feeling inferior within is the inferiority complex … an attempt > to > > > perceive relative inferiority around to believe self superiority > is > > > the superiority complex … in either case, I suffer from being > > > inferior within – in one case I know that I am inferior and in > the > > > other case I don't know that I am inferior. > > > > > > One who attains such knowledge (beware! Not information!!) that > > > there is nothing inferior or superior is also GOD as such. > > > Therefore, a true Bhakta/Gnyani/Yogi is verily THE GOD as such. > > > Because, for such a person there is nothing to crave for and > > nothing > > > to be afraid of: > > > > > > Yastu sarvani bhutani aatmanyevanupashyate | > > > Sarva bhuteshu chaatmaanam tato na vijugupsate || > > > > > > The very fear that I could be inferior binds me to the > inferiority > > > driving me to imbibe alien behavior and adapt alien conduct > > > to " appear " superior … sulking away from my true presence with > the > > > Universal Absolute devoid of all such alienations of superiority > > and > > > inferiority. > > > > > > The very desire that I should be superior keeps me inferior > driving > > > me to pursue alien objectives and tread alien conduit to " feel " > > > superior … running away from my true presence with the Universal > > > Absolute devoid of all such alienations of superiority and > > > inferiority. > > > > > > Appreciating our fear of inferiority and urge for superiority; > > > acknowledging our ill-placed dependence in the two; understanding > > > the two as the root causes of all our miseries; and realizing > that > > > the two were and are nothing but figments of our illusions and > > > hallucinations would eventually force our alien notions of fear > and > > > desire to drop away automatically since all the alienating > factors > > > that separate any entity from The Absolute are mitigated in the > > > process. > > > > > > Yasmin sarvani bhutani aatmaivabhdvijanatah | > > > Tatra ko mohah kah shokah ekatvamanupashyatah || > > > > > > The process is called SAMARPANA which is often translated > > > as " surrendering " . Again, please note that > > > > > > 1. nobody has no rights to surrender anything since the very > > > notion of owning something which could be possibly surrendered > is a > > > fallacy > > > 2. there is nothing to surrender since everything is THAT as > > > such > > > 3. nothing can be surrendered to God because everything is GOD > > > > > > Should we come to this conclusion when logic fails? Should one > drop > > > Karma and Gnyana to attain Bhakti? NO. We should again understand > > > the subtle differences between information, logic and knowledge. > We > > > should observe the subtle differences between the our activities, > > > work and action. We should appreciate the subtle differences > > between > > > desires, emotions and devotion. > > > > > > Using sensory evidences toward a logical existence of one's > > presence > > > is Sankhya. On the other hand, the mere awareness of one's > presence > > > is Gnyana. Though the individual awareness is apparently > revealed > > in > > > one's sensory perception, all the perceptions are established > > within > > > this awareness in reality. But, our focus being driven by our > > > cognitive mechanism hones on the perceptional evidence as reality > > > rather than the substratum from which the very cognition arises > and > > > into which the very cognition merges back. Gnyana is in the > > > substratum while Sankhya dwells in the cognitive boundaries. > > > Therefore, all logical deductions should be applied to appreciate > > > one's relativity … not to define The Absolute. Again, no logic > can > > > capture Gnyana … and yet, all logic when truthfully pursued point > > > toward the substratum, The Knowledge. > > > > > > The fact is, the cognition is the only mechanism that can help > us > > to > > > appreciate its own limitations, faults and strengths. On one > hand > > it > > > is the ignorance. On the other hand, it is the only weapon that > can > > > break the ignorance apart. Therefore, one cannot attain by > dropping > > > one's analytical prowess in spiritual progress when one feels > > > frustrated while being unable to penetrate through one's > ignorance. > > > Infact, that is when the mechanism is the most useful. If the > > > mechanism is applied properly, it will eventually drop by itself > to > > > be with The Knowledge rather than with its playful fun and > painful > > > miseries. It should not buckle on any brick wall of ignorance as > > > such. It is also another fallacy that Bhakti raises when this > > > mechanism stops. Anything devoid of Gnyana cannot be Bhakti: > > > > > > Kuru te ganga sagara gamanam vrataparipalanam athava daanam | > > > Gnyanavihinah sarvamatena bhajati muktim janma shatena || > > > > > > Bhaja Gonidam bhaja Govindam Govindam bhaja mudhamate | > > > Samsare sannihite kale nahi nahi rakshati dukrinkarane || > > > > > > Therefore, observation, analysis, appreciation, understanding and > > > realization is part of the tri-fold sadhana – Karma, Gnyana and > > > Bhakti. Again remember … thoughts are NOT KNOWLEDGE … activities > > are > > > NOT ACTION … emotions are NOT DEVOTION. Thoughts, activities and > > > emotions are alienatied from each other and trapped in ones > > > individual existence while Knowledge, Action and Devotion are > > > UNIVERSAL. Thoughts, activities and emotions are distinctly > > > different. Knowledge, Action and Devotion are unanimously > > synonymous > > > to each other. Therefore, a Yogi whose activites are merged along > > > The Action is also a Gnyani whose thoughts are merged with The > > > Knowledge and also a Bhakta whose experiences are merged in The > > > Devotion. One without the other would remain mere thoughts or > > > activities or emotions snowballing into ones storage of Vasanas > > > (tendencies) becoming root cause for all our miseries. > > > > > > Respects. > > > > > > Naga Narayana. > > > ------------------------------ - > > > , " sadhak_insight " > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Following has been written in commentary to Chapter 18 Verse > 61 > > in > > > > the Gitaji (Verses and their meaning) published by Gita Press. > > > > > > > > Discarding shame, fear, praise and attachment; shedding > feeling > > of > > > > me and mine from the body and the world; accepting God as the > > sole > > > > shelter, final destiation and every thing; non stop > remembering > > of > > > > God's name, God's virtues, God's influence and God's form with > > > great > > > > reverence, devotion and love; doing all worldly activities and > > > > duties keeping God in mind, as per God's orders/ instructions, > > > > without any worldly attachment and doing every thing only for > > God. > > > > This is true " Sharanagati " (Surrender to God). > > > > > > > > I have attempted to translate from Hindi to English myself and > > > hence > > > > there may be some difference in the actual intention of the > > > writer. > > > > However, I personally feel that the translation is close to > what > > > has > > > > been written. > > > > > > > > A.H.Dalmia > > > > ---------------------------- -- > -- > > - > > > > Naga ji has right understanding of the 'surrender' because > self > > > > realization is not an obligation towards anyone else but is > > about > > > > understanding of the truth. When two people fight over a > > subject, > > > > and finally an experiment proves the real position where both > > > agree. > > > > For example, in earlier days, some people thought of earth as > > > centre > > > > and sun encircling it, and another people thought just > reverse. > > In > > > > final view, the later proved correct, and everybody accepted > it > > to > > > > the one truth. In exactly similar way, the conflicts within us > > > finds > > > > answer in universal knowledge of self realization and that > which > > > is > > > > free from any conflict, is the truth. The mind thus surrenders > > to > > > > superior most wisdom, and this is surrender to the God. Or in > > > other > > > > words, it is removal of ignorance. > > > > > > > > Sciences are evolved by inquiry into natural phenomena. > > > Scientists, > > > > and even philosophers get satisfied only when their mind is at > > > peace > > > > by correct understanding. They write what they understood so > > that > > > > errors are removed, and people share the higher wisdom. This > > truth > > > > of sciences in observed objects or conduct of surrender and > > people > > > > follow laws discovered in sciences. One step above is Dharma > or > > > > knowledge about observer and character rather than conduct. > One > > > > step further is beyond the ultimate truth of life cycles and > > > causes > > > > of changes. In these way, surrender is a term for going higher > > in > > > > ladder of awareness. > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > K G Misra > > > > > > > > ---------------------------- -- > -- > > - > > > > -Shree Hari- > > > > > > > > In referance to the comment by Vyas N B: > > > > > > > > You spoke my life since that point of change. Indeed it is the > > > simple > > > > truth, I at times find it hard to believe the way things have > > > played > > > > out, I just have to accept it with humility. I do mean > humility. > > > > I know I am among people with great knowledge of the Bhagavad > > > Gita, > > > > and indeed it seems to have an energy when I read it, even > > though > > > my > > > > comprehension of it is poor. > > > > The debate goes this way, then that way, " I disagree, I > agree " . > > To > > > me > > > > it is like, in a spiritual sense, a fan swishing over > > smoldering > > > > coals bringing them to life. > > > > > > > > With respect and Divine Love, > > > > > > > > Mike > > > > (Mike Keenor) > > > > > > > > ---------------------------- -- > > > > Remember Hindus, there is no " God " in the Gita. " God " is not a > > > Hindu > > > > term. > > > > Class Yoga > > > > > > > > From Moderator : Please suggest other words that represent > That > > > > Paramatma > > > > Ram Ram > > > > ---------------------------- -- > -- > > > > > > > > , " sadhak_insight " > > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Hari Om > > > > > > > > > > Oh! How nice it is to sit together and deliberate! > Devotion , > > > the > > > > name God has infinite ways to gladden soul. Consider > > clarification > > > > of Mike. What he " experienced " was right. Whatever he read was > > > > debated. This is to be noted. Soul knows no barriers. > Conscience > > > is > > > > always perfect. Your direct experience is infinite times > better > > > than > > > > learning! Gita touches your soul. You are right Mike, the > > > beginning > > > > of spiritual journey does not always involve God being in > focus. > > > You > > > > search for the truth and suddenly you get changed - character, > > > > habits, attitude, every thing changes for better. The same > > world, > > > > the same worldly people start looking different. Your focus > > shifts > > > > towards looking goodness in others and suddenly you realise > > there > > > > are people who help without expecting results. They were there > > in > > > > the past also, Sure. But with change in us they are seen with > > > > clarity. One day, and that day is not far for any determined > > > > aspirant, will come when all around us will be revealed to us > as > > > God > > > > and God only! > > > > > > > > > > That revelation in fact is the goal of every human being! > > > > > > > > > > Jai Shree Krishna > > > > > > > > > > Vyas N B > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------- -- > -- > > - > > > > > Hari Hari! > > > > > > > > > > I have but two short points. > > > > > > > > > > 1. The issue of whether one can actually surrender to God, > as > > > Naga > > > > > Narayana has put the issue, actually pivots around two very > > > > > different conceptions of God and jivas. The spiritual > teacher > > > > > (Swami Ramsukdasji) whose disciples host this discussion, it > > is > > > my > > > > > understanding that he has apparently taught that > individuality > > > is > > > > an > > > > > illusion of the material world, and upon liberation, we > merge > > > with > > > > > the impersonal Supreme. I come from a line of teaching that > > > > > considers individual identity to be eternal, and that each > > > > > individual has an eternal relationship with the Supreme > > > Personality > > > > > of Godhead. With the second conception, the logic leading > to > > the > > > > > conclusion of surrender and Bhakti is apparent. Generally, > I've > > > > > found that those following first line of teaching consider > the > > > > > second to be incorrect, and vice versa. I don't really see a > > > > > purpose in debating the point here; actually, I think > everyone > > > > > should pursue God in the way that they can believe in, and > > > > > hopefully those of us who are farther can come nearer to God > > > > through > > > > > devotion to our respective paths. > > > > > > > > > > 2. I mainly use a translation of the Bhagavad Gita that is > well > > > > > respected by religious studies departments and sanskrit > > scholars > > > > > throughout the world, what to speak of Vaishnava religious > > > > > authorities. The translator comes from an established line of > > > > > teachers, and in his life he was an exemplary devotee: A.C. > > > > > Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. It is readily available > online > > > with > > > > > sanskrit, word-by-word translations. I have not referred > > > > > to other's translations as possessing a " serious > limitation, " > > but > > > > > rather have accepted your respected teacher's translations > > > because > > > > I > > > > > know they are sacred to you. > > > > > > > > > > This is a very nice opportunity to learn about different > > > > conceptions > > > > > of God, and to use important questions (like that of > > surrender) > > > to > > > > > delve deeper into our own philosophies. I hope it can be done > > > > > respectfully, now that we are aware of our philosophical > > > > > differences. I think there is still much held in common. > > > > > > > > > > Hare Krishna, > > > > > Hannah Sandal > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------- -- > -- > > > > > How about saying surrender to ALMIGHTY who controls OUR > > > Natural > > > > > Habitat including Environmemt and Human Evolution itself? > > > > > > > > > > Mohan K Muju > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------- -- > -- > > - > > > > > , " sadhak_insight " > > > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > What is " surrendering " ? > > > > > > > > > > > > Samarpana – Bhakti – God > > > > > > > > > > > > No one can " surrender " to God. If something receives your > > > > > > surrenderance, then it is NOT God. Surrendering involves > two > > > > > > distinct parties – one superior and the other inferior, > both > > > > being > > > > > > limited owing to their mutually exclusive distinction from > > each > > > > > > other. One who surrenders is not a Bhakta and one who is > > > > > surrendered > > > > > > to is not God either. One who surrenders is at worst a > slave > > > and > > > > > one > > > > > > who receives a surrenderer is at best a king. Note that > both > > a > > > > > slave > > > > > > and a king are nothing but slaves – individuals with no > > > freedom. > > > > > > Note that all the distinctions are arased between a Bhakta > > and > > > > > God. > > > > > > The very meaning of Bhakti is the mitigation of all > > alienation > > > of > > > > > a > > > > > > person with ereference to God. The Bhakta is as liberated > as > > > The > > > > > God > > > > > > as such due to the lack of all alienating notions between > > the > > > > two. > > > > > > Therefore, the very term " surrender " is a fallacy in > > spiritual > > > > > > practice because the word has the popular cannotation > > > of " giving > > > > > > away something " or " sacrificing something " as if by force > or > > > by > > > > no > > > > > > other choice. > > > > > > > > > > > > The sanskrit term " Samarpana " is often referred to as " to > > > > > surrender " > > > > > > since that is probably the best english word > > > available. " Arpana " > > > > > > means denying ownership of something; " samarpana " is > denying > > > the > > > > > > very ownership in all respects – in actions, in thoughts > as > > > well > > > > > as > > > > > > in desires. The very denial is the only route to mitigate > the > > > > > > differences between subject and object, objects and > objects, > > > and > > > > > God > > > > > > and objects. All the distinctions between God, subject and > > > > objects > > > > > > are rooted in the perceived notion of ownership as such. > > > > Observing > > > > > > the illusive and evasive nature of one's ego to hang on to > > one > > > or > > > > > > the other ownership, understanding the mythical unreality > in > > > all > > > > > > such notions, and realizing that all our miseries are in > fact > > > > > rooted > > > > > > in such notions as such is the sound process of purging > all > > the > > > > > > notions of ownership within to liberate oneself to merge > > with > > > the > > > > > > Universal Reality with no constraints or conditions of any > > > kind. > > > > > > Therefore, " samarpana " is the path of devotion to reach the > > > > > Absolute > > > > > > Freedom. There is nothing given up in samarpana. There is > > > nothing > > > > > > transacted in samarpana. There is nothing attained in > > > samarpana. > > > > > Not > > > > > > seeking to give up, transact and attain is called Bhakti. > > > > > > > > > > > > If surrendering is understood synanymous with samarpana, > the > > > very > > > > > > act is the only Knowledge. Anything else is just > > information. > > > The > > > > > > Bhakti (Samarpana) is the very Karma (The Act). The Karma > is > > > the > > > > > > very Gnyana (The Knowledge). Thinking that the mind is the > > the > > > > > > domain of knowledge is a huge misnomer. Understanding that > > the > > > > > mind > > > > > > is part of knowledge and knowledge is not part of mind is > > the > > > > true > > > > > > knowledge. That is the true surrender (samarpana) from > mind's > > > > > > perspective. A Samarpita Manas (truly surrendered mind) is > > The > > > > God > > > > > > as such where the notion of surrendering never raises > again. > > A > > > > > > samarpita manas cannot face any kind of " brick walls " – > > > removing > > > > > all > > > > > > such obstacles is the role of logic (informational > analysis – > > > > > > Sankhya); NOT to create one! I would not agree that if > > somebody > > > > > > believes to be in Bhakti when one cannot think further as > > Para > > > > > > Bhakti. Para Bhakti incorporates proactive understanding > > > (karma- > > > > > > purita-gnyana) and realized acitivities (Gnyana-purita- > > karma). > > > > The > > > > > > verses quoted by Mr. Keenor often tend to project variant > > > notions > > > > > > regarding Karma, Gnyana and Bhakti – but, only in their > > > isolated > > > > > > context. As I understand, Bhagavad Gita cannot create any > > such > > > > > > isolation. Everything is THAT alone in all respects though > > they > > > > > may > > > > > > appear as variant within one's perception. Breaking the > > > barriers > > > > > of > > > > > > such perceptional isolation within one's mind is the role > of > > > the > > > > > > logical observation (Sankhya). Sankhya cannot bring > Gnyana – > > > > logic > > > > > > in any form cannot bring Knowledge. Sankhya becomes Gnyana > > in > > > its > > > > > > purity. So does the Karma. So does the Bhakti. > > > > > > > > > > > > Tasyai tapo damah karmeti pratishtha – the Shraddha > > > incorporating > > > > > > focussed knowledge, controled desire and guided action is > the > > > > > > foundation for Samarpana. > > > > > > > > > > > > Vedah sarvangani – all the sources of perception > > (understanding > > > > > all > > > > > > perceptions to be as such without any trace of ownership) > is > > > the > > > > > > domain of Samarpana. > > > > > > > > > > > > Satyamayatanam – to be The Truth, The Absolute, The Peace, > > The > > > > > Bliss > > > > > > … to be ONE is THE SAMARPANA. > > > > > > > > > > > > Therefore, I canot agree that TRUE SURRENDER (THE > SAMARPANA) > > > can > > > > > > raise out of an incapable mind. It is the state of a very > > > capable > > > > > > mind. > > > > > > > > > > > > Respects. > > > > > > > > > > > > Naga Narayana. > > > > > > ------------------------ -- > -- > > -- > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > > > Re Sadhak Hannah's views > > > > > > > > > > > > I am indeed touched by the fact that inspite of the very > > > serious > > > > > > limitation of the translations of the verses adopted by > you, > > > some > > > > > of > > > > > > the conclusions arrived at by you were exceptionally > > accurate. > > > > You > > > > > > may indeed call that grace of God and power and glory of > > Gita > > > and > > > > > of > > > > > > your devotion to God. . > > > > > > > > > > > > However let me tell you that had you had at your disposal > > > > English > > > > > > Edition of Saadhak Sanjeevani written by Swamiji > Ramsukhdasji > > > > > > Maharaj , the entire interpretations of the verses would > have > > > > > taken > > > > > > a divine shape. > > > > > > > > > > > > For example what you called as " regulative principles of > > > Bhakti > > > > > > Yoga " is in fact " constant practice of (chanting etc) > divine > > > > > name > > > > > > with equanimity having God as the aim " in 12:9 ! > > > > > > > > > > > > 12:10 would have read - > > > > > > > > > > > > " If you are unable to practice as above , be thou intent > on > > > > > > performing ordained actions for Me , thus doing self less > > > actions > > > > > > for my sake, thou shalt achieve perfection " > > > > > > > > > > > > The knowledge referred in Ch 12:12 is not Jnana Yoga in > > > > entirety. > > > > > > Here knowledge means mainly reading of scriptures, having > > > > interest > > > > > > in what is body, nature,self etc only and merely knowing ( > > not > > > > > > realising or experiencing completely) that you are > separate > > > from > > > > > > your body etc- in other words in very limited sense only ( > as > > > > > there > > > > > > is no yoga -equanimity attached with that). Here in > > > > > 12:12 " practice " > > > > > > referred is mere practice not " practice with equanimity > > having > > > > God > > > > > > as aim " referred in 12:9 !! > > > > > > > > > > > > Similarly there is a difference between " practice with > > > > Equanimity > > > > > > (abhyaas yogen)with keeping God as aim " referred in 12:9 > and > > > > > > mere " practice " referred in 12:10 (abhyaasepyasamartho) > etc > > > etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Similarly 12:12 does not entirely refer Karma Yoga but > only > > one > > > > > > portion of that viz renunciation of fruits Karma Yoga is > not > > > > > wholly > > > > > > and exclusively renunciation of fruits only!. Here > > > > > > actually " renunciation " (tyaag) is more glorified > > > > > than " renunciation > > > > > > with equanimity " . > > > > > > > > > > > > Thus, Here in 12:12 an eternal principle gets revealed - > > > " every > > > > > > renunciation results in instant peace " - > > > > > > > > > > > > " tyagatchhantimanantaram " > > > > > > > > > > > > Now this principle is applicable in every department of > life, > > > > > > everywhere universally! > > > > > > > > > > > > Differences are subtle but when you practice or implement > or > > > try > > > > > to > > > > > > grasp they become extremely relevant and almost touch your > > > soul. > > > > > > After all these verses are the voice of God ! ! Gita is a > > > mirror, > > > > > as > > > > > > is your attitude so does it look ! ! > > > > > > > > > > > > Hence I agree with you that there is a need of a perfect > > > > > translation > > > > > > of these verses. They make sea of a difference.Here there > is > > > > > > importance of writer! > > > > > > > > > > > > Jai Shree Krishna > > > > > > > > > > > > Vyas N B > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------ -- > -- > > -- > > > -- > > > > - > > > > > > Hare Krishna > > > > > > > > > > > > Re Sadhak Mike " s Query > > > > > > > > > > > > As mentioned in the verses below, there are two kinds of > > > > > devotional > > > > > > service: the way of regulative principles and the way of > full > > > > > > attachment in love to the Supreme Personality of Godhead. > For > > > > > those > > > > > > who are actually not able to follow the principles of > Krishna > > > > > > consciousness it is better to cultivate knowledge, because > by > > > > > > knowledge one can be able to understand his real position. > > > > > Gradually > > > > > > knowledge will develop to the point of meditation. By > > > meditation > > > > > one > > > > > > can be able to understand the Supreme Personality of > Godhead > > > by a > > > > > > gradual process. There are processes which make one > > understand > > > > > that > > > > > > one himself is the Supreme, and that sort of meditation is > > > > > preferred > > > > > > if one is unable to engage in devotional service. If one > is > > not > > > > > able > > > > > > to meditate in such a way, then there are prescribed > duties, > > as > > > > > > enjoined in the Vedic literature, for the Brahmanas, > > Ksatriyas, > > > > > > Vaisyas and Sudras, which we shall find in the last > chapter > > of > > > > > > Bhagavad-Gita. But in all cases, one should give up the > > result > > > or > > > > > > fruits of labor; this means to employ the result of karma > > for > > > > some > > > > > > good cause. > > > > > > > > > > > > In summary, to reach the Supreme Personality of Godhead, > the > > > > > highest > > > > > > goal, there are two processes: one process is by gradual > > > > > > development, and the other process is direct. Devotional > > > service > > > > > in > > > > > > Krishna consciousness is the direct method, and the other > > > method > > > > > > involves renouncing the fruits of one's activities. Then > one > > > can > > > > > > come to the stage of knowledge, then to the stage of > > > meditation, > > > > > > then to the stage of understanding the Supersoul, and then > > to > > > the > > > > > > stage of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. One may take > > > either > > > > > the > > > > > > step-by-step process or the direct path. The direct > process > > is > > > > not > > > > > > possible for everyone; therefore the indirect process is > also > > > > > good. > > > > > > It is, however, to be understood that the indirect process > > is > > > not > > > > > > recommended for Arjuna, because he is already at the stage > of > > > > > loving > > > > > > devotional service to the Supreme Lord. It is for others, > > who > > > are > > > > > > not at this stage; for them the gradual process of > > > renunciation, > > > > > > knowledge, meditation and realization of the Supersoul and > > > > Brahman > > > > > > should be followed. But as far as Bhagavad-Gita is > > concerned, > > > it > > > > > is > > > > > > the direct method that is stressed. Everyone is advised to > > > take > > > > to > > > > > > the direct method and surrender unto the Supreme > Personality > > of > > > > > > Godhead, Krishna > > > > > > > > > > > > Your Servant > > > > > > > > > > > > Janardhana Dasa > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------ -- > -- > > -- > > > -- > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear friends > > > > > > Vyas ji has ideas on Karma and Zyan and Bhakti and Yoga. > In > > the > > > > > > Bhagwat Gita, these are soul of understanding. I will try > to > > > > > explain > > > > > > it in the following way: > > > > > > > > > > > > Take example of person(s) going from Delhi to Mumbai. In > this > > > > > > journey of self realization, everyone is in an act of > > > loneliness, > > > > > > birth and death in cycles after cycles, and wants to > realize > > > > truth > > > > > > about him/herself. And when this destination is fixed, YOGA > > > > > starts. > > > > > > YOGA is placing one on a path of self realization. > > > > > > > > > > > > When an individual starts journey in search of truth, he > > does > > > it > > > > > by > > > > > > his/her natural instinct whatever it is. This knowledge of > > the > > > > > > swabhaav is called ZYAN. Because this ZYAN is directed to > > > (YOGA) > > > > > the > > > > > > path of self realization, it is called ZYAN YOGA. Has this > > ZYAN > > > > > been > > > > > > is not in a direction of self realization, that would be > > > VISHAYA. > > > > > > > > > > > > By knowing the swbhaav, when individual works this is > called > > > > > KARMA. > > > > > > At every new milestone, the swbhaav gets more pure, and > this > > is > > > > > > called KARMA YOGA. But when individual does not know > his/her > > > > > > swbhaav and works not in the direction of self > realization, > > > this > > > > > is > > > > > > VYAVSAYA (from Vishaya). > > > > > > > > > > > > When an individual is working all alone and reaches a > stage > > of > > > > > self > > > > > > realization, this is ZYAN YOGA and KARMA YOGA. In Buddhist > > > > > > tradition, this way is called HINAYAN (small vehicle). It > has > > > > > > advantage because an individual follows TAPAH (endurance), > > and > > > > > > learns by mistakes, and quite clear in mind. In earlier > > > periods, > > > > > all > > > > > > Yogis used to stay alone and meditate in forests. Krishna > is > > > > > Himself > > > > > > this example. > > > > > > > > > > > > In case when an individual finds another soul, and joined > > with > > > > it, > > > > > > this togetherness is called BHAKTI. And when the people in > > > group > > > > > > work and knowing right way, this is called BHAKTI YOGA. > > > Buddhist > > > > > > called it MAHA YAN (large vehicle). In this case, if > Bhakti > > is > > > > > with > > > > > > right Guru, the individual keeps following and reaches > > > > > destination. > > > > > > This is BHAKTI YOGA and KARMA YOGA. The ZYAN YOGA is there > > but > > > > not > > > > > > relevant because the right path of GURU is enough. SoorDas > > and > > > > > > TulsiDas are example of saints who never lived in forests > and > > > > > never > > > > > > fought war like Arjun, and they by their mind only > followed > > Ram > > > > > and > > > > > > Krishna. Zyan is there but not has any effect. It is like > > > > > milistones > > > > > > (Kota, Baroda) falling on the way from Delhi to Mumbai, > and > > the > > > > > > passenger like TulsiDas never get it noticed. > > > > > > > > > > > > Arjun is the one who is together with Krishna (BHAKTI > YOGA). > > He > > > > > got > > > > > > explanation of every stage in the journey of self > > realization > > > or > > > > > > self transformation to truth (ZYAN YOGA), and had to fight > a > > > war > > > > > > like living in dangerous forest (tapah, endurance) and > > staying > > > at > > > > > > course is KARMA YOGA. All three. > > > > > > > > > > > > Buddha says same thing in other words > > > > > > Buddham Sharam Gachhami = " Go " to Truth (Karma YOGA) > > > > > > Dhamman sharnam Gachhami'= by following your " self > nature " > > > (Zyan > > > > > > YOGA) > > > > > > Sangham sharnam Gachhami = go " together " (Bhakti YOGA) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Best regards > > > > > > K G > > > > > > (Krishna Gopal) > > > > > > ------------------------ -- > -- > > - > > > > > > > > > > > > -Shree Hari- > > > > > > > > > > > > Clarification: > > > > > > > > > > > > The comment on BG 3.3 was not mine but was on the Bhagavad > > > Gita I > > > > > was > > > > > > reading on line. Thus of course this does not change the > > > wisdom > > > > of > > > > > > the > > > > > > comments posted. > > > > > > Surrender comment was based on personal experience, (and > > that > > > of > > > > > > the man I met in strange circumstances). We both had one > > thing > > > in > > > > > > common and that was to find the truth, (spiritual truth, > not > > > > > > necessarily God focussed). > > > > > > I can only speak from my heart, (he has his own journey). > > But > > > one > > > > > > reached a point where every perception one had fell away. > A > > > state > > > > > of > > > > > > absolute bewilderment. Of course I know now that the brick > > wall > > > > > was > > > > > > my > > > > > > own ignorance. But I did then realize that I needed Divine > > > help. > > > > > > The early Chapters that I have read seem to be around these > > > > > thoughts > > > > > > of mine. > > > > > > I have also learned that character change does happen. One > > does > > > > > help > > > > > > others without wanting for reward, in fact being at one > with > > > > those > > > > > > that suffer. And of course always the intellect, but not so > > > > > blinded > > > > > > by > > > > > > the ego, knowing ultimately there is GOD. > > > > > > This seems to fit in general with the comments, have read. > > > > > > I know there is much for me to learn. > > > > > > > > > > > > With respects and Divine Love. > > > > > > > > > > > > Mike Keenor > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------ -- > -- > > -- > > > -- > > > > -- > > > > > - > > > > > > , " sadhak_insight " > > > > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hari Om > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Re Sadhak Mike " s Query > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let us now talk about surrender. Your 2nd learned > comment > > is > > > > > > indeed > > > > > > > soul touching and is almost perfect. However as stated in > > > > > previous > > > > > > > episode the Bhakti Yoga is independent and therefore the > > > > > surrender > > > > > > > doesnot begin when the limitation of mind is realised. > It > > is > > > a > > > > > > > principle that mind and intellect cannot reach God > because > > > both > > > > > > are > > > > > > > part of Nature (Prakrati) and God is beyond the Nature. > > > > > However > > > > > > > you can always change the focus ( direction) of mind and > > > > > intellect > > > > > > > from the world to the God. That in itself is more than > > > > > sufficient. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bhakti Yoga begins with the outlook - " I am of the God > > and > > > > only > > > > > > God > > > > > > > is mine, and nobody else is mine " and attains perfection > > when > > > > > you > > > > > > > start seeing/ experiencing presence of God everywhere. > Read > > > > > > > carefully the process differences given by me in the > > previous > > > > > > > edition. There are dozens or more such differences but > due > > to > > > > > > space > > > > > > > constraints I have given briefly. They are really > > important > > > > > from > > > > > > > spiritual practice point of view. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From your second comment it has been revealed to me that > > you > > > > > have > > > > > > > set the goal for yourself to feel the presence of God > > > > > everywhere. > > > > > > > Believe me that goal is perfect- It is ultimate and real > > > Bhakti > > > > > > Yoga- > > > > > > > let me tell you. " VASUDEVAH SARVAM " – All this is God > > (Gita > > > > > > 7:19) > > > > > > > is the final conclusion of Gita and the surrender is the > > > > > ultimate > > > > > > > weapon which an aspirant has in his spiritual journey- > > there > > > is > > > > > no > > > > > > > doubt on these two. In fact Gita begins with surrender ( > > BG > > > 2:7 > > > > > > > quoted by you too) and ends with surrender (18:66). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > God starts conversation talking about " WORRYING " to > Arjuna > > ( > > > > > 2:11) > > > > > > > and ends his conversation telling Arjuna not to worry( > > > 18:66). > > > > > I > > > > > > > would suggest you read " Saadhak Sanjeevani " a Treatise > on > > > Gita > > > > > by > > > > > > > Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj, the English Edition of > which > > is > > > > > also > > > > > > > there. That will solve translation confusions of the > verses > > > > > > forever > > > > > > > for you and it is so vast, comprehensive and clear that > > > merely > > > > > by > > > > > > > reading you may change your perceptions and it shall > > enthuse > > > > you > > > > > > in > > > > > > > your journey in a miraculous manner. If I get address I > may > > > > > ensure > > > > > > > you get latest copy of the same by post. In my eyes it > is > > an > > > > > > > essential commentary and the ULTIMATE ON GITA. No other > > > > > detailed > > > > > > > commentary has the depth of cross reference and can even > > be a > > > > > > > semblance of it- it is my experience. It is the best on > the > > > > > > subject, > > > > > > > written by a God realised soul exclusively to help > > aspirants > > > > > only. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hope I have been able to provide clarity. Everything > which > > I > > > > > write > > > > > > > is from the books and discourses of Swamiji only. Only > the > > > > > > > translation or presentation is mine. Pls do write if > you > > > need > > > > > > more > > > > > > > clarification . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jai Shree Krishna > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Vyas N B > > > > > > > ---------------------- -- > -- > > -- > > > -- > > > > -- > > > > > -- > > > > > > > , " sadhak_insight " > > > > > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hari Hari! > > > > > > > > In considering this current conversation, I looked to > > > chapter > > > > > > > twelve > > > > > > > > of the Gita, entitled " Devotional Service " . Please > > forgive > > > my > > > > > > > > quoting of several verses: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 12.6-7 But those who worship Me, giving up all their > > > > > activities > > > > > > > > unto Me and being devoted to Me without deviation, > > engaged > > > in > > > > > > > > devotional service and always meditating upon Me, > having > > > > fixed > > > > > > > their > > > > > > > > minds upon Me, O son of Pritha for them I am the swift > > > > > deliverer > > > > > > > > from the ocean of birth and death. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > BG 12.8: Just fix your mind upon Me, the Supreme > > > Personality > > > > > of > > > > > > > > Godhead, and engage all your intelligence in Me. Thus > > you > > > > will > > > > > > > live > > > > > > > > in Me always, without a doubt. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > BG 12.9: My dear Arjuna, O winner of wealth, if you > > cannot > > > > fix > > > > > > > your > > > > > > > > mind upon Me without deviation, then follow the > > regulative > > > > > > > > principles of bhakti-yoga. In this way develop a > desire > > to > > > > > > attain > > > > > > > Me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > BG 12.10: If you cannot practice the regulations of > > bhakti- > > > > > yoga, > > > > > > > > then just try to work for Me, because by working for > Me > > you > > > > > will > > > > > > > > come to the perfect stage. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > BG 12.11: If, however, you are unable to work in this > > > > > > > consciousness > > > > > > > > of Me, then try to act giving up all results of your > > work > > > and > > > > > > try > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > be self-situated. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > BG 12.12: If you cannot take to this practice, then > > engage > > > > > > > yourself > > > > > > > > in the cultivation of knowledge. Better than knowledge, > > > > > however, > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > meditation, and better than meditation is renunciation > > of > > > the > > > > > > > fruits > > > > > > > > of action, for by such renunciation one can attain > peace > > of > > > > > mind. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Here, Krishna outlines the options available to us, and > > > > > > encourages > > > > > > > > them to pursue them to the best of our ability. He > says > > > that > > > > > > > > cultivation of knolwedge (JYoga) and renunciation of > the > > > > > fruits > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > action (KYoga) are both beneficial on the path towards > > > > > > liberation > > > > > > > > because they help us develop a " desire to attain " God. > > We > > > can > > > > > > use > > > > > > > > our intelliegence to understand the philosophy of God, > > and > > > we > > > > > > > > can use our ability to renounce to practice > controlling > > our > > > > > > mind. > > > > > > > > Bhakti yoga provides principles to practice loving > > service > > > to > > > > > > God. > > > > > > > > We can see in 12.6-7 that the goal of all of this is > to > > be > > > > > 100% > > > > > > > > fixed in a relationship of devotional service with the > > > > Supreme > > > > > > > Lord. > > > > > > > > It is at this point that God provides liberation to > > those > > > who > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > devoted to him. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One final note, is that we are perhaps working from > > > different > > > > > > > > translations. I am of the opinion that each person > should > > > > > study > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > authors of the translations, and the quality of > different > > > > > > > > translations, and find the one that is most in line > with > > > > their > > > > > > own > > > > > > > > purposes. The differences arise from the difference > > between > > > > > > > > English and Sanskrit: there are words in Sanskrit that > > have > > > > > many > > > > > > > > meanings, and these meanings are dependant upon > grammar, > > > > > > spelling, > > > > > > > > and context. Translation into English is not always > > > > > > > straightforward, > > > > > > > > and frequently depends upon the background and purpose > > of > > > the > > > > > > > > translator. You'll find, for example, a very different > > > > > > translation > > > > > > > > of the Gita used for learning Sanskrit in American > > > > > universities. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > your servant, > > > > > > > > H. Sandal > > > > > > > > (Hannah Sandal) > > > > > > > > -------------------- -- > -- > > -- > > > > > > > > Dear Sadhakas, Namaste! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The essence of the verses mentioned by Mike Keenor has > > been > > > > > > > captured > > > > > > > > in his own words. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I would like to suggest, however, that we don't need to > > > > > consider > > > > > > > any > > > > > > > > one path being superior to other paths toward Self- God > > > > > > > Realization. > > > > > > > > If Self-God realization were to mean freedom from > > sorrows > > > and > > > > > to > > > > > > > > live in unconditional Love serving all, it is all the > > more > > > > > > > important > > > > > > > > to see all paths being equal even if they differ in > their > > > > > > > > approaches. If the ultimate results are the same, > there > > is > > > no > > > > > > need > > > > > > > > to compare any paths as being superior or inferior. > > > Krishnaji > > > > > > may > > > > > > > > have said only to emphasize that all can attain such > > > freedom > > > > > > even > > > > > > > if > > > > > > > > they are not prone to one or the other paths. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We need to see that God is not separate from such a > > Gyani, > > > or > > > > > > > Karma- > > > > > > > > Yogi or Devotee! Gita says God is Devotion in Bhakta, > > > Truth- > > > > > > Being- > > > > > > > > Self in Gyani and self-less actions in Karm-Yogi. > > > Ultimately > > > > > > that > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > what happens to Bhakta(Devotee), Karma-Yogi(person of > > > > selfless > > > > > > > > action), and Gyani(Self-realized). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Some of us are naturally inclined to do Karmas! To > make > > > their > > > > > > > Karmas > > > > > > > > not binding and yet serve those who are in need, Gita > > > > > prescribes > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > Karma-Yoga meaning self-less actions. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > By performing actions without assuming doership, > guided > > by > > > > > > > > righteousness, frees one from Bondage due to karmas. > > Unless > > > > > one > > > > > > > has > > > > > > > > total devotion while performing actions and total > > > surrender > > > > of > > > > > > > > results to God, one just cannot do such self-less > > actions. > > > > > Thus > > > > > > > > Karma-Yogi is also doing Bhakti, leading to freedom > > (moksha) > > > > > from > > > > > > > > sorrows. He will eventually realize his true nature > > being > > > > Sat- > > > > > > Chit- > > > > > > > > Ananda(Supreme Consciousness, not an individual). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In the same way one who is given to inquiry, is a Truth > > > > > Seeker. > > > > > > > > He/She will in time become Truth Lover by seeking > > nothing > > > but > > > > > > > Truth. > > > > > > > > Upon experiencing glimpses of truth in daily life, the > > > > > devotion > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > Truth becomes intense. So again such a truth lover is > > also > > > > > > devotee- > > > > > > > > bhakta of Truth, same as God and then attains > knowledge > > of > > > > who > > > > > > > > he/she is in reality and thus perfection! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In my experience, one just doesn't follow only one > path, > > > > > rather > > > > > > > one > > > > > > > > integrates all such paths and God given resoureces! As > > we > > > all > > > > > > > know, > > > > > > > > no one can remain without actions, and all of us have > > > quality > > > > > of > > > > > > > > devotion at least in something we do! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In the times we are living at present, it is more > > > appropriate > > > > > to > > > > > > > > perform Karmas with the best of one's ability to serve > > > > > humanity, > > > > > > > > assuming no-doership thereof and to accept or rather > > > welcome > > > > > > > results > > > > > > > > of such actions. This will automatically leads one to > > > wonder > > > > > and > > > > > > > > inquire about the nature of God, world, and oneself. > Upon > > > > > > > > contemplation of all three, one will realize the truth > > of > > > > them > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > eventually get established in True Self. Out of such > > > > knowledge > > > > > > one > > > > > > > > becomes a mystic, so to speak, and his/her existence is > > > > > aligned > > > > > > > with > > > > > > > > Totality or wholeness of Being in which individuality > is > > > > > > absorbed. > > > > > > > > God is just the name to such Experience of Being > > > everything, > > > > > > which > > > > > > > > is Absolute Existence and thus Ananda. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Namaskars...Pratap > > > > > > > > (Pratap Bhatt) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------------- -- > -- > > -- > > > -- > > > > -- > > > > > -- > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " sadhak_insight " > > > > > > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hari Om > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You have sought comments on certain verses of Gita > > > dealing > > > > > > with > > > > > > > > > Jnana Yoga (JY) , Karma Yoga (KY) and Bhakti Yoga > > (BY) > > > and > > > > > on > > > > > > > two > > > > > > > > > learned comments, that formulated your thinking. I > > shall > > > > > > briefly > > > > > > > > > take you through the best on the subject to impart > > total > > > > > > > clarity. > > > > > > > > > The answer shall be in minimum two installments of > one > > > page > > > > > > > each, > > > > > > > > > maximum three. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > First Bhagavad Gita 3:3. The correct translation of > the > > > > > verse > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > as > > > > > > > > > under - " O Sinless Arjuna, in this world a two > fold > > > path > > > > > > has > > > > > > > > been > > > > > > > > > enunciated by Me before, the Path of Knowledge > (Jnana > > > Yoga > > > > > or > > > > > > > > > Sankhya Yoga) for men of renunciation and the Path > of > > > > > Action > > > > > > > for > > > > > > > > > men of action (Karma Yoga) " . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The correct translation of BG 3:7 is - " But he who > > > controls > > > > > > his > > > > > > > > > senses through the mind, O Arjuna, and engages > himself > > in > > > > > the > > > > > > > path > > > > > > > > > of action, with the organs of action and sense, > without > > > > > being > > > > > > > > > attached, is superior. " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your comment that - " The karmi and jnani are > different > > in > > > > > name > > > > > > > > only. > > > > > > > > > Actually, persons engaged in karma become pure > hearted > > > > > jnanis > > > > > > by > > > > > > > > > their actions. And the jnanis become liberated by > > > > bhakti. " - > > > > > > > > > > > > can > > > > > > > > > not be said to be entirely correct. Because it pre > > > suposses > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > outcome or the end result of these exercises > > is " purity > > > of > > > > > > > heart " > > > > > > > > > while actually the end result of both of them > > > > > is " liberation " . > > > > > > > > > Further the comment that they are different names > only > > is > > > > > > right > > > > > > > > from > > > > > > > > > only end result perspective and certainly not from > the > > > > > process > > > > > > > > > followed by them and by the attitude of a Jnana Yogi > > and > > > a > > > > > > Karma > > > > > > > > > Yogi. (Refer last para of this edition). Secondly > this > > > > > comment > > > > > > > > > presumes that Bhakti is necessary for liberation, but > > > > > actually > > > > > > > > > Bhakti gets you ever increasing love of God in > > addition > > > to > > > > > > > > > liberation. Your translation also of the verse does > > not > > > > > bring > > > > > > > out > > > > > > > > > Karma Yoga clearly and gets rather tilted towards > > bhakti > > > > > when > > > > > > > you > > > > > > > > > refer devotional service. Here are some good > > revelations. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In this verse the term " loke " stands for " in this > > > world " . > > > > > > Here > > > > > > > > only > > > > > > > > > two yogas (paths) have been described, not three. > > Bhakti > > > > > Yoga > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > absent here. Reason is that while Jnana Yoga and > > Karma > > > > Yoga > > > > > > > > > are " laukik " (worldly – beliefs/paths to be > practiced > > in > > > > > > > relation > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > the world and worldly things), the Bhakti Yoga > > > > > is " alaukik " > > > > > > > > > (beyond this world - divine, special path, a > > belief/path > > > to > > > > > be > > > > > > > > > practiced in relation to God). Refer also discussion > > > below > > > > > > > dealing > > > > > > > > > with perishable/imperishable - both of which > elements > > are > > > > > > > worldly > > > > > > > > > only. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The term " nishtha " stands for Equanimity, which can > be > > > > > either > > > > > > > > > attained through the path of knowledge or through > path > > of > > > > > > > action. > > > > > > > > > (There is very little need of equanimity in fact in > > > Bhakti > > > > > > > Yoga) – > > > > > > > > > Refer distinction made by God in Gita 2:39. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Corresponding to these two paths there are two types > of > > > > > > purushas > > > > > > > > > (men) – Gita 15:16 – one Akshar (Immortal self) and > > > > > > two " Kshar " > > > > > > > > > (mortal world). To remain equanimous in success or > > > failure, > > > > > or > > > > > > > > > profits or losses (dualities) etc. of the perishable > is > > > > > Karma > > > > > > > > Yoga, > > > > > > > > > while having disinclination for the perishable and > > being > > > > > > > > established > > > > > > > > > in imperishable (self) is Sankhya or Jnana Yoga. But > > > above > > > > > > these > > > > > > > > two > > > > > > > > > there is the Supreme Person who is beyond the > > > perishable, > > > > > > and > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > superior to the imperishable, called as Paramatma > > (God) > > > in > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > scriptures and Veda (Gita 15:18). Thus a whole > hearted > > > > > > surrender > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > God, is called Discipline of Devotion (Bhakti Yoga). > In > > > > > Karma > > > > > > > Yoga > > > > > > > > > there is predominance of perishable, in Sankhya Yoga > > > there > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > predominance of imperishable and in Bhakti Yoga > there > > is > > > > > > > > > predominance of God. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The state of " nishtha " (Equanimity) can be attained > by > > > > > > strivers, > > > > > > > > > either through knowledge or through Action, but > > > > > identification > > > > > > > > with > > > > > > > > > the God, is not their own (nishtha). In Sankhya > state, > > > > > > strivers > > > > > > > > > experience distinctly, the existence of their own > > > selves, > > > > as > > > > > > > well > > > > > > > > > as, that of the world and try to cut asunder the > > affinity > > > > > for > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > world. A Karma Yogi offers to the world, everything > > > > > (including > > > > > > > > even > > > > > > > > > his body), that he has derived from it and removes > > > affinity > > > > > > > from > > > > > > > > > the world. In this way both of them get established > in > > > > their > > > > > > > true > > > > > > > > > form – the self. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Neither think others as evil doers, nor wish evil to > > > others > > > > > > nor > > > > > > > do > > > > > > > > > evil to others- with this outlook " Karma Yoga " > begins. > > > > > Nothing > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > mine, I need nothing and I have to do nothing for > > > myself – > > > > > by > > > > > > > > > accepting this truth " Jnana (Sankhya) Yoga " begins. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The beauty is that in both the paths of JY and KY > > there > > > is > > > > > no > > > > > > > need > > > > > > > > > of even thinking about/ focusing/ accepting the > > > existence > > > > of > > > > > > God > > > > > > > > at > > > > > > > > > all. Both JYs and KYs get liberated easily without > > even > > > > > > > imagining > > > > > > > > > about God. It is only in BY that God comes into > picture > > > > > right > > > > > > > from > > > > > > > > > beginning. In both JY and KY the God is optional not > > at > > > all > > > > > > > > > compulsory even upto the final stage. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You, Mike has presumed an order of KY first, then JY > > and > > > > > then > > > > > > BY > > > > > > > > as > > > > > > > > > the last. Gita does not to that view. In > > Gita > > > it > > > > > is > > > > > > > JY, > > > > > > > > > then KY (superior to JY) and then BY (best ). > However > > all > > > > > > three > > > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > > Independent ways of liberation. If you are > determined > > > then > > > > > > you > > > > > > > > need > > > > > > > > > not take another or additional route to continue your > > > > > journey, > > > > > > > > > unless when you want love of God also. All three get > > you > > > > > > > > > liberation. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The aforesaid orders therefore are from comfort > point > > of > > > > > view > > > > > > > only. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now coming to how they are different from process > > point > > > of > > > > > > view. > > > > > > > > In > > > > > > > > > JY you use your power of " knowing " , in KY your power > > > > > > of " doing " > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > in BY your power of belief/acceptance. In JY your > > > > conscience > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > guiding force, in KY it is action and in BY it is > > > emotions > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > faith/belief. In JY you depend upon self, in KY upon > > duty > > > > > and > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > BY > > > > > > > > > upon God. In JY you renounce ego, in KY " desires " > and > > in > > > BY > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > mineness with the world. In JY you eliminate ego, in > > KY > > > you > > > > > > > > > modify/purify ego and in BY you change your ego. In > > JY > > > you > > > > > > > become > > > > > > > > > equal to God, in KY near to God and in BY > indivisible > > > with > > > > > > God. > > > > > > > A > > > > > > > > JY > > > > > > > > > is useful to himself, a KY is useful to the world > and > > a > > > BY > > > > > to > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > God. In JY your desire to " know something " is > > > extinguished, > > > > > in > > > > > > > > > KY " to do something " and in BY to get something. In > JY > > > you > > > > > > > > renounce > > > > > > > > > the doership first, in KY you renounce > > the " enjoyership " > > > > and > > > > > > in > > > > > > > BY > > > > > > > > > you renounce the " mineness " with the worldly people. > > In > > > JY > > > > > you > > > > > > > get > > > > > > > > > pleased by self, in KY by seeing others happy, in BY > by > > > > > making > > > > > > > God > > > > > > > > > happy.In JY you don't do anything, in KY you do for > > > others > > > > > > only > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > in BY you do for God. In JY you surrender the things > to > > > > > > Nature, > > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > > KY to the world and in BY to the God.In JY obstacle > is > > > your > > > > > > ego > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > body, in KY obstacle is your attachment with worldly > > > > > pleasures > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > in BY the obstacle is remaining away from God. In JY > > your > > > > > > karmas > > > > > > > > get > > > > > > > > > burnt, in KY they become " akarmas " (fruitless) and > in > > BY > > > > > they > > > > > > > > > become " divya " ( divine). In JY you don't desire > > anything > > > > > from > > > > > > > > > anyone, in KY you fulfil desires of others and in BY > > you > > > > > merge > > > > > > > > your > > > > > > > > > desires into the desire of God. In JY you don't > > consider > > > > > > anyone > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > be " mine " , in KY all in the world are yours but for > > > > > selfless > > > > > > > > > service only, and in BY only God is yours. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Balance in next edition. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jai Shree Krishna > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Vyas N B > > > > > > > > > ------------------ -- > -- > > -- > > > -- > > > > -- > > > > > -- > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > It is very interesting to read your teachings ! I > > > > personally > > > > > > > feel > > > > > > > > > that if one can use the ' INDRIYAS' as tools, ( The > > > > sensory > > > > > > > > > organs ) then, one uses the eyes to its fullest - > which > > > > > means > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > the job of the eyes is only to report - see and > > report - > > > > > but, > > > > > > we > > > > > > > > > then remember that all the further decisions are > made > > by > > > > the > > > > > > > atma > > > > > > > > or > > > > > > > > > the self which is the life - and if this self is > > > manifested > > > > > > with > > > > > > > > > desires - it does not follow the righteous path, > then > > the > > > > > eyes > > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > > not to blame for reporting ! The BG is the best tool > > > which > > > > > > > teaches > > > > > > > > > us how to use these indriyas to our betterment - not > to > > > > > > > > destruction > > > > > > > > > with desires !! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Prapati > > > > > > > > > ------------------ -- > -- > > -- > > > -- > > > > -- > > > > > -- > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > - > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " sadhak_insight " > > > > > > > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -Shree Hari- > > > > > > > > > > I would very much appreciate any comments or > > guidance > > > on > > > > > my > > > > > > > > > thoughts > > > > > > > > > > below regarding surrender, > > > > > > > > > > I have listed some of the chapters plus a learned > > > > comment, > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > > formulated my thinking. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > BG 2.7 > > > > > > > > > > " Now I am confused about my duty and have lost all > > > > > composure > > > > > > > > > because > > > > > > > > > > of miserly weakness. In this condition I am asking > > You > > > to > > > > > > tell > > > > > > > > me > > > > > > > > > for > > > > > > > > > > certain what is best for me. Now I am Your > disciple, > > > and > > > > a > > > > > > soul > > > > > > > > > > surrendered unto You. Please instruct me. " > > > > > > > > > > BG 3.3 > > > > > > > > > > The Supreme Personality of Godhead said: O sinless > > > > Arjuna, > > > > > I > > > > > > > have > > > > > > > > > > already explained that there are two classes of > men > > who > > > > > try > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > realize > > > > > > > > > > the self. Some are inclined to understand it by > > > > empirical, > > > > > > > > > > philosophical speculation, and others by devotional > > > > > service. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A comment on 3.3 > > > > > > > > > > The karmi and jnani are different in name only. > > > > Actually > > > > > > > > persons > > > > > > > > > > engaged in karma become pure hearted jnanis by the > > > > > actions. > > > > > > > And > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > jnanis become liberated by bhakti. This is meaning > > of > > > all > > > > > my > > > > > > > > words. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > BG 3.7 > > > > > > > > > > On the other hand, if a sincere person tries to > > control > > > > > the > > > > > > > > active > > > > > > > > > > senses by the mind and begins karma-yoga [in > Krishna > > > > > > > > consciousness] > > > > > > > > > > without attachment, he is by far superior. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Surrender:- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From my readings it appears that with jnana , > > > ultimately > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > aspirant, can hit a brick wall as it were, the > mind > > > finds > > > > > a > > > > > > > > place > > > > > > > > > > it cannot proceed beyond. At that point to > > surrender > > > to > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > Divine > > > > > > > > > > Lord without reservation, to no longer think in > pure > > > > logic > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > Absolute Truth, and to follow faithfully the path > > that > > > > > opens > > > > > > > > > before > > > > > > > > > > you with courage. Can open the eyes with wonder, > as > > the > > > > > Lord > > > > > > > > shows > > > > > > > > > > his presence in all that is revealed, how can a > soul > > be > > > > > > > anything > > > > > > > > > but > > > > > > > > > > bhakti, after such a moment of truth? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > With Respect and Divine Love, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mike > > > > > > > > > > (Mike Keenor) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------- -- > -- > > -- > > > -- > > > > -- > > > > > -- > > > > > > - > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > GUIDELINES FOR POSTING A RESPONSE: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. The group is focused on the Holy Gitaji, > > therefore, > > > > > only > > > > > > > > > > responses which further clarify the understanding > of > > > > > Gitaji, > > > > > > > > will > > > > > > > > > be > > > > > > > > > > posted. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2. Making reference of Gitaji shloka is highly > > > > encouraged - > > > > > > > > > > > at > > > > > > > > > least > > > > > > > > > > once in the response. Wherever possible, please > > quote > > > > > > Gitaji > > > > > > > or > > > > > > > > > > other scriptures to substantiate your response. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3. Please be as concise and to the point as > possible, > > > > > > > respecting > > > > > > > > > > sadhaka's time. Under no circustance the answer > > should > > > > > > exceed > > > > > > > > say > > > > > > > > > > one page at the most (500 words or so). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 4. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, > beliefs > > > etc. > > > > > to > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > extent that they further help in understanding the > > Gita > > > > > > shlokas > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at > hand > > > only. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 6. Please do not include links to the other sites > or > > > > other > > > > > > > > > > organizations. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 7. Complete reproduction of texts from any book is > > > > > strongly > > > > > > > > > > discouraged, however references may be made of > the > > > book > > > > > or > > > > > > > > author > > > > > > > > > > (but not links to other sites). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 8. Kindly do not include your personal information > > > such > > > > as > > > > > > > phone > > > > > > > > > > number, address etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 9. Please do not address the response to a > particular > > > > > > > individual > > > > > > > > > > since the message is going to the entire group. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 10. Due to the large readership, only those > > responses > > > > will > > > > > > be > > > > > > > > > posted > > > > > > > > > > which are in line with the general philosophy of > > taking > > > > > > > Shrimad > > > > > > > > > > Bhagavad Gita as the reference. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 11. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the > > > posting, > > > > > if > > > > > > > > > content > > > > > > > > > > is unclear for distribution or not directly > related > > to > > > > the > > > > > > > > > question > > > > > > > > > > being asked. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 12. Please respond taking into consideration the > > > novices, > > > > > > > youth, > > > > > > > > > > westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit > the > > > use > > > > > of > > > > > > > only > > > > > > > > > > Sanskrit words, rather provide the English word > with > > > > > > Sanskrit > > > > > > > > > > bracketed wherever possible. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > MODERATOR > > > > > > > > > > Ram Ram > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 18, 2008 Report Share Posted July 18, 2008 Hari Om Here are some practical life " direct experiences " of us all on the subject of surrender/ prayer to Paramatma :- JUST AS : A mother clearly knows whether the " cry " of child is genuine or a drama ( naatak). If the child is doing " naatak " , ( drama) of crying, she ignores and keeps doing household work. But if the child is serious, the mother will forget everything, will throw away even the most important job on hand, and come running to take the child into her arms! SIMILARLY : If a person with a truthful and pure heart calls Paramatma (i.e. surrenders), He comes running, but if you are doing " naatak " (drama), you get ignored! JUST AS: The mother is not the child's for any particular reason e.g. any ability, power, merits, right, intelligence, devotion of the child towards the mother. It is because of the mineness of the child - Mother is mine. SIMILARLY: The Paramatma is not ours because of some knowledge, power, capability, right, entitlement, or some merits or specific traits in us. He is ours when we establish " mineness " with HIM, _ " Paramatma is mine. I am of Paramatma " . Whether we are good, bad, pure, sinful – if we mean " We are of Paramatma " - He is ours. JUST AS : To clean, bathe a child is responsibility of mother, not of the Child. SIMILARLY; To purify, to clean , to destroy the sins of a surrendered devotee is the responsibility of Paramatma not of the devotee. JUST AS: A Child is entitled to exercise all the powers on his mother using the singular and the only available tool with him - crying " . SIMILARLY: We become entitled to exercise all the powers of the Paramatma by using " SURRENDER " JUST AS: A Mother does not seek permission of the child while deciding to clean him, bathe him, nor does the mother seek permission of anyone else before cleaning, the child. SIMILARLY; Paramatma does not need approval of surrendered devotee or of anybody else to purify him. No body thus is entitled to blame that such and such " good " person is undergoing hardships. JUST AS: A child sometimes cries even when he is in the arms and lap of his mother. This cry arises out of " stupidity " only. Stupidity- because if a child cries in the lap of his mother, where will he laugh? SIMILARLY; We regret, rue, get tense, suffer, in this world out of stupidity alone. The world is the lap of Paramatma for a surrendered devotee. If we cry here , where will we laugh? JUST AS: A little boy of a very rich person unnecessarily worries, fights about money - not knowing his father is very rich. When he comes to know of the richness, power of his father - HE CHANGES. SIMILARLY: We keep on fighting for petty things, money/ power/wealth etc inspite being Son of the King of all Kings. When we surrender, when we establish our relationship with Paramatma - WE CHANGE! JUST AS: Inspite of intolerable criminal conduct of son, a father never says - " This child is not mine " SIMILARLY: Paramatma will never disown you, when you surrender to HIM, even if you are the most sinful and impure. JUST AS : When an infant (one who depends on mother's milk only) gets unwell, the medicine is taken by the mother. SIMILARLY: When we surrender, when we get dependent upon Paramatma, all our responsibilities will be borne by Him only. JUST AS: When a crawling little child lifts any object in the house and gives to father, his father becomes happy - inspite of the fact that the object belongs to father only, the house is of father only and the child is of father only. It is the gesture of the child which pleases the father. SIMILARLY: When you surrender, when you say " O Father, you are mine, I am yours " and when you exhibit a child like gesture of giving yourself to Him and/or whatever or some worldly things you possess, He becomes happy, inspite of the fact that you yourself was always of Him only, the worldly things were always belonging to Him only. JUST AS: A child fears to go alone in a dark place or take a ride alone. But all fears vanish instantly and completely when he is in the arms of his mother! Thereafter even if he is in a dark place, he will not worry. SIMILARLY: Our anxieties, our worries, apprehensions all vanish when we SURRENDER and slip into the arms of Paramatma. They remain only till we don't surrender. JUST AS: When a child with dirt on his person and cloths approaches his mother, his attention is never towards his dirt and his person but towards his mother. Similarly when mother takes the child, she does not look at the dirt on his cloths but she looks at the child only.SIMILARLY: When we turn towards Paramatma, when we surrender, our focus should be Paramatma only not our conduct, our sins or our deeds. JUST AS : A father becomes happy when his little one speaks in a broken, defective language of his own. Father does not bother about the the purity of the language, pronunciation etc. On the contrary , father himself starts using the same defective, totally broken language to make child understand him. SIMILARLY: When you sincerely pray to Paramatma, He will not look at your language, choice of the words, presentation. He will see your feelings, inner emotions and will become happy by your gestures alone. He then will conduct Himself in a language which you understand ! JUST AS: A child does not bother as much about the mother, as much as, the mother bothers about the child. She is infinite times more tolerant than the child. Therefore she never gets angry when the child bites her nipples while feeding, when child kicks her or when child urinates in her lap only. If mother gets angry, how the child will survive? SIMILARLY: Paramatma tolerates your disobedience, your bratinesses, your criminal conducts and still loves you. If He gets angry, what will happen to you? He bothers infinite times more than you are bothered about Him. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B - , " sadhak_insight " <sadhak_insight wrote: > > Jai Shri Krishna, > > To bow (Pranaam / Namaskaar) before Parmatma is his Sharanagati. > Pranaam means – I am yours, so whatever you decide, is acceptable to > me. > > " Namaskaar Se Ramdas, Karam Sabhi Kat Jaay, Jay Mile Parbrahma Mein, > Aavagaman Mitaay. " – By Namaskaar, actions lose their binding power, > one meets the Parmatma and is freed from the cycle of birth and > death. > > Our culture is basically Sharanagati (surrender) oriented. A student > bows before teacher, a son bows before parents, a chaste woman bows > before husband, a servant bows before master, the subjects bow > before king, an employee bows before employer and so on and so > forth. > > Vyasji has beautifully explained Sharanagati with the example of a > child, which is the most apt example on the subject. Actually, we > are practicing Sharanagati at every stage of our life - we surrender > before weather, we surrender before earthquake, we surrender before > sonami waves, we surrender before volcanoes, we surrender before > famines, we surrender before floods, we surrender before fire, we > surrender before our family, we surrender before our employers, we > surrender before the sovereign rule etc. In fact we are continuously > surrendering only, since birth. Until we surrender to Parmatma, whom > we belong to, we will continue shifting base. > > Surrendering to Parmaatma is very easy. Just as when a man sleeps, > he does not have to do anything to sleep, nor does he have to make > any efforts, nor does he have to remember anything, nor does he have > to do any work – instead he has to just leave everything. If he > leaves everything, then sleep comes on its own. Similarly, if do not > take shelter of our strength (Bal), mind (Buddhi), knowledge > (vidya), capability (yogyata) etc., if we do not take pride > (Abhimaan) in them, then we are Sharnagat only, we do not have to do > anything for that. Because, in reality every one (Jiva Matra) is > Sharnagat to Parmatma. He treats every one as His own – " Sab Mam > Priya, Sab Mam Upjaaye " (all are dear to Me and all are My > children). But becoming SLAVE of his FALSE EGO, Jiva (embodied soul) > can not surrender to Parmatma. > > Actually, to take pride in his own Bal, Buddhi, Vidhya, Yogyata is > man's weakness, because to take help of anything is sign of > weakness. However, to be Sharnagat is not weakness but reality, > because Jiva is part of Parmatma only. Boasting of his capabilities, > man says that I will do this, that etc., but when he can not pass > urine due to some physical problem, then he runs to the doctor. Only > those who become Sharnagat can make an impossible thing possible. > > Parmatma only is doing EVERYTHING, because He has taken us in His > shelter since times immemorial. We now have to accept his > Sharanagati, give our consent in his decision (Vidhaan), say yes to > His yes. From His side, we are his children only – " Mamaivansho > Jivaloke " . But from our side we become surrendered to the world. We > do not actually have to become Sharnagat to Parmatma, but to > renounce the false Sharanagati of the world – we have to correct our > mistake (Bhool). > > Sharanagati is essence of Gitaji. If one accepts that Sharanagati, > then he will be ecstatic. He will become special (Vilakshan). He > will start realizing the meaning of Vedas, even without reading > them. Nothing will be left for him to DO, KNOW and GET then. > > " Hey Naath Main Aapkaa Hoon " …. " Oh Father, I am your very own. " > > Narayana Narayana > > Rajendra J. Bohra > > > Dear Sadaks, > > Until one realises by surrendering everthing that happens to him, he > is still jeevathuma (embodied soul). He is far far inferior. > Bhagavan in Geetha has said in one place a word, " Moodathuma " . > Contemplate on it, as Bagavan is always perfect. > > Vasudeva Servam-- No doubt the power of Vasudev is there in all > beings. But only few become saints due to sense of mineness and > attachment. When these vanish, mind surrenders to God, and > thereafter, inspite of living in this world, one is unattached like > a lotus in water. > > B.Sathyanarayan > > -------------------------------- > > Everything is God and hence no surrender is required is non-sense > based on my understanding. Why does Krishna say than " Maamekam > saranam vraja " ? Aatmaa (embodied soul) has to surrender to > Paramaatmaa (Supreme Soul). Else the words Brahman, Parabrahman, > Jivaatmaa, Paramaatmaa etc. do not have any meaning at all. We are > all eternal servants of the Lord and we should regain the devotional > service to Him. > > Even Shankara prayed Bhaja Govindam and clearly said that this type > of flowery speech or writing will never help when the last moment > arrives. Only surrender to Govinda will help. Hence he himself > surrendered to Lakshminrusimha. > > So, one should surrender to the Supreme Lord. This is written in > the true interest of all real devotees. > > Daasa Mukunda. > > > , " sadhak_insight " > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > Hari Om > > > > Thanks. Right you are. How easily we can cross the ocean! > > That is kripa (benevolence) of God! Can there be an easier thing > > than surrender? Certainly not. > > > > Surrender and the principles of surrender, the great utility of > > surrender - it is seen by us , experienced by us, realised by us > > from day one as our " direct experience " > > > > You were as sharanagat only (surrendered) when you were born!! Can > > surrender principles remain then out of direct experience?. How > > blissful, how fearless, how doubtless, how worryless, how divine, > > how carefree was our childhood - when we slept, played, danced, did > > all sorts of notorities and bratinesses, learnt, grew and developed > > in the loving arms of father and mother? Were we not then > > surrendered? Yes, We were! We certainly were in surrendered mode! > > > > When did we doubt as a child as to whether the mother is mine? We > > did not know with certainty whether our our mother is truly our > > mother, but in our hearts we had no doubt. We had one > belief " Mother > > is Mine " . That is all we had. That is all is needed also - " God is > > mine " to surrender. What other qualification we had then (when we > > were children)? There is no need of any action or knowledge or > > karma, or jnana (knowledge), or mind , or intellect, or wisdom, or > > analysis, or ego, nothing is needed. - " Only God is mine " is > > needed. And it is needed in the form of an acceptance, a > > doubtless, " self " acceptance from within. > > > > You are absolutely right in concluding that a surrendered devotee, > > as soon as he surrenders becomes worriless(nischint), becomes grief > > less (nisshok), becomes doubtless (nisshank) and fearless > (nirbhay). > > And so remains a child! > > > > Why child only? What is patient in front of a doctor? What are old > > people ? What is an Indian " pativrata " (devoted and dutiful) > wife ? > > What were traditional disciples vis a vis Gurus (spiritual guides)? > > What is a loyal employee before his employer? What is a criminal > > before judge? What is a weak before the powerful? All are > > surrendered! > > > > We surrender every day before our mind, before our circumstances, > > before our calls of nature, before our desires, before our > > superiors , before our destiny, before our diseases, before our > > death, - where do we not surrender? What is then impossibility or > > shame or inferiority or unjustness about our surrendering before > > the God? What is difficulty? > > > > What kind of " knowledge " a child has before he surrenders? What > kind > > of analytical research or expertise a patient has when he > surrenders > > before the Doctor? > > > > Oh ! How graceful is God ! How easy it is to surrender! How just > and > > equitable it is to surrender? How beneficial it is to surrender? > All > > ignorance vanishes. All sorrows get extinguished with roots! All > > sins get destroyed! You become indivisible with God - with your > > father! > > > > How superior is God! How merciful is our Father! How great are the > > principles of surrender! How sacred is Gita - the voice of our > > Father! > > > > Jai Shree Krishna > > > > Vyas N B > > -------------------------------- -- > > > > -Shree Hari- > > > > Going back to to my quote in 'clarification': > > > > 'But one reached a point where every perception one had fell away. > A > > state of absolute bewilderment. Of course I know now that the brick > > wall was my own ignorance. But I did then realize that I needed > > Divine help'. > > > > After many years of meditation deep silent. Constant contemplation > of > > the meaning of the 'Logos', fascinated me. > > Seeing through the glaring double speak of religions, pushing my > > mind beyond the 'logos', (well attempting to). > > Two others I have known that had come to this spiritual point > turned, > > to what I consider to be the fountain of great spiritual energy, > > India, and took a Yoga path, I sat at the feet of a High Lama, but > > slowly was drawn towards the Indian traditions. > > > > This site, gita talk is absolutely brilliant, I never looked for > it, > > it sort of came at me, and I did not 'Delete' click. > > > > Discussing Surrender to God, with my son, he said, " Hmm, you mean > to > > yielding to your true self, higher self " , " Yes " , I said. > > > > One could not proceed without higher guidance, one had to proceed! > > This was no place to dally! > > > > What of Bhagavad Gita 2.7 , Arjuna was confused, so was I. > > How can I surrender as a slave to that which is my higher self, > that > > which I find in meditation, that which radiates a sweet energy from > > my heart that spells sacred love, and causes my eyes to weep sweet > > gentle tears. I am not sure who does the weeping, the 'Beloved', > or > > my lower self. > > > > I will keep reading 'The Gita', and will ask questions, and I > > apologize if they are Western and clumsy, but maybe my coal bucket > > will someday shine, (I liked that story). > > > > With Respect and Divine Love, > > > > Mike > > (Mike Keenor) > > > > -------------------------------- -- > - > > > > Just an observation to correct the address " god " > > In our Hindu vocabulary, PARMAATMA is word used for God. We > > shouldn't use incorrect terminology. We are supposedly free from > > colonialism and enslaved mentality. > > Naresh Khanna > > > > > > -------------------------------- -- > -- > > , " sadhak_insight " > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > > > Jai Shri Krishna, > > > > > > 'Sharanagati' (Surrender) & 'Samarpan' (offering) are two > > altogether > > > different terms. Sharanagati is of Self and Surrender is of > things > > > separate from Self. " Sharanagati " is " Self " related > and " Samarpan " > > > is " worldly things " related. We surrender our Karma to the God. > > > > > > A Sharnagat Devotee firmly believes that I am God's and God is > > mine. > > > A Sharanagat devotee with such a FIRM belief then surrenders > > himself > > > along with offering (Samarpan) all 'so called his things' to the > > > God. He thereafter becomes Assured (Nischinta), Fearless > > (Nirbhay), > > > Grief less (Nishok), Doubtless (Nishank). He, however, does not > > test > > > that since I have surrendered to God, these qualities should > arise > > > in me. On the contrary if he finds any deficiency in himself, he > > > wonders how such a deficiency has still remained. The moment he > > > feels this way, then such a deficiency also alleviates. He > > believes > > > that my relationship with God is Unbreakable (Atoota), Whole > > > (Akhanda), Permanent (Nitya). > > > > > > Whatever God decides (God's Vidhaan), it is purely for liberation > > > (Kalyaan) of every one (Praani Matra) - if one starts seeing this > > > grace (God's Kripa), then nothing remains to be done. God craves > > for > > > good of every one (Praani Matra) and therefore he declares " Sarva > > > Dharmaan Parityajya, Mamekam Sharanam Vrija " (Gitaji 18:66) as a > > > very SECRET thing. This is because God considers every one (Jeeva > > > Matra) as his friend - 'Suhrahdam Sarvabhutaanam' (Gitaji 5:29) > > and > > > gives them the freedom to use any of Karma Yoga, Jnana Yoga or > > > Bhakti Yoga to realise Him and COMPLETELY (Samoola) alleviate all > > > pains (Dukha) for ever. > > > > > > Actually, God's grace is only reason in Kalyaan (liberation) of > > Jiva > > > (embodied soul). Karma Yoga, Jnana Yoga, Bhakti Yoga etc. all > > these > > > means are made available by God and God realised souls. Therefore > > > these means are COMPLETELY DRENCHED in God's grace. > > > > > > Vasudev Sarvam… > > > > > > Narayana Narayana > > > > > > Rajendra J. Bohra > > > ------------------------------ - > > > > > > Namaste (Nagaji and all) > > > > > > Mindblowing please keep enlightening us. > > > Jayesh Patel > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ -- > > > Hari Om > > > > > > What a divine shape this deliberation is taking?Satsanga has its > > own > > > divinity.Thanks Naga Narainji for really relevant and crucial > > inputs > > > on the suject of " surrender " . > > > > > > ON ONE HAND > > > > > > There is no doubt that we are stainless, immortal, and ever > > > blissful part of God and God only. There is no doubt that a Jnana > > > Yogi upon achieving perfection " becomes " equal to God. There is > no > > > doubt that a Karma Yogi " becomes " the closest to God and a Bhakti > > > Yogi " becomes " indivisible with God. Why do they reach there ? > > > Because they are not inferior to God - 100 percent right.! > > > > > > There is also no doubt that both Liberation and Bondage are in > > Mind > > > only. Actually, neither is existing- all are relative terms. > There > > > is also no doubt that without even thinking / imagining / > > accepting > > > any existence of God a Jnana Yogi and a Karma Yogi can " become " > as > > > good as God. How can a son be inferior or superior to father? How > > > can a part be different than the whole? There is no doubt that > the > > > fundamental principle of Gita is VASUDEVAH SARVAM - it is > > > declaration of God, Gita and all Vedas. Poison is as good a > > creation > > > of God as is nectar. > > > > > > ON THE OTHER HAND > > > > > > There is no doubt that God in Gita declared Himself to be > beyond > > > Nature and superior to individual soul (Jeeva - 15:18). There is > > no > > > doubt that inspite of being fundamentally stainless, faultless > > > fragment of God, every human being makes mistakes - to err is > > human. > > > There is no doubt that we all feel imperfection, deficiency, > lack, > > > inspite of being Son of the King of all Kings and being capable > of > > > getting equal or nearest to or indivisible with God! There is no > > > doubt that " samarpan " and " sharangati " are totally different > > terms, > > > as per Gita and " surrender " is " sharanagati " not " samarpan " . > There > > > is no doubt that Gita starts and ends with " sharanagati " > > > (surrender). There is no doubt that 18:66 is about " surrender " > and > > > not " samarpan " . Why 18:66 only ? Gita is full of verses where the > > > surrender is glorified ( e.g. 7:14, 15:4, 7:19, > > > 8:14,8:22,9:13,9:34,15:19 etc). There is no doubt that " samarpan " > > is > > > also used in Gita ( Ref 9:26, 9:27, 9:28, 12:6 - 12:7, 12:8, > etc). > > > There is no doubt that Jeeva (embodied Soul) experiences a > > fiercely > > > burning desire in him of getting something, doing something and > > > knowing something - that is true as of date with all of us. There > > is > > > no doubt that we lack peace, bliss and fearlessness - at present. > > > > > > If you can't surrender anything because everything is God, then > > you > > > can't renounce or offer the ownership also or relinquish your > > > rights (samarpan)of anything, because everything is God! In > > > VASUDEVAH SARVAM there is neither " sharanagati " nor " samarpan " . > > Who > > > will do " samarpan " to whom? There is one only, there is no second > > > existing! > > > > > > " There is also no doubt that by use of different terms, > > > say " samarpan " or " sharanagati " , the basic element or process > > stated > > > in 18:66 doesn't change. The words are not important, they > > > are " drukanya karane " as per Bhaja Govindam quoted by Naga > > > Narayanaji. Words employed therefore make no difference. > > Important > > > is basic fact - if Jeeva (embodied Soul) is part of God, where > is > > > question of surrender/ samarpana/ any process? > > > > > > It is also true that all sense of fear, inferiority etc are not > > > existing in reality - they are only in mind. It is also true that > > > all scriptures, Gita, God advice Jeeva not to feel fearful, > > > inferior, deficient or incapable, worried, unhappy. At the same > > time > > > this is also true that each saadhak or human being hits a > > brickwall > > > of ignorance or realises limitations of his mind during his > > > spiritual journey. It is difficult to imagine any human being can > > > escape the limitations of mind and intellect. The real journey > > > starts therafter. > > > > > > The entire discussion is focused on Jeeva being part of God and > > > hence being in no way inferior to God. > > > > > > Sure! > > > > > > But Jeeva (embodied soul) as of date is not equal or closest or > > > part of God - he has forgotten. Inspite of being perfect, Jeeva > > > feels imperfection. Inspite of needing nothing, Jeeva feels > > > deficiency. Hence Gita, hence need of religion, Hence Saints, > > Hence > > > Satsanga, Hence " samarpana " . Hence " sharanagati " (surrender), so > > > that Jeeva " becomes " (I repeat " becomes " ) equal to/nearest > > > to/indivisible with God. So that Jeeva recalls his eternal > > > connection with God. So that Jeeva feels perfect, faultless and > > ever > > > blissful. So that a lost , bewildered, sufferring son goes back > > into > > > the arms and shelter of his father. So that Jeeva nevers feels > > > inferiority. > > > > > > Oh! What a beautiful experience it is to talk/ think/ deliberate > > > about God, His devotees, His Voice, His Gita, His principles, His > > > infinite minds and intellects, His children ! > > > > > > Pranaam to all > > > > > > Jai Shree Krishna > > > > > > Vyas N B > > > > > > ------------------------------ -- > > > , " sadhak_insight " > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Is God Superior? Am I inferior? Should I surrender to God? > > > > > > > > NO … and, NO … and NO. > > > > > > > > God is not superior to me and I am not inferior to God. Be > > careful, > > > > I cannot be superior to anything as such since nothing is > > inferior > > > > to God as such because GOD IS EVERYTHING – VASUDEVA SARVAM. > > > > > > > > Therefore, let me validate my initial statement further … IF I > AM > > > > NOT SUPERIOR TO ANYTHING THEN I AM NOT INFERIOR TO ANYTHING > > > > INCLUDING GOD … else … I am inferior to everything as such > > because > > > > everything else remains God while I am not and therefore I > > suffer. > > > > An attempt to impose a superior position to oneself while > > actually > > > > feeling inferior within is the inferiority complex … an attempt > > to > > > > perceive relative inferiority around to believe self > superiority > > is > > > > the superiority complex … in either case, I suffer from being > > > > inferior within – in one case I know that I am inferior and in > > the > > > > other case I don't know that I am inferior. > > > > > > > > One who attains such knowledge (beware! Not information!!) that > > > > there is nothing inferior or superior is also GOD as such. > > > > Therefore, a true Bhakta/Gnyani/Yogi is verily THE GOD as such. > > > > Because, for such a person there is nothing to crave for and > > > nothing > > > > to be afraid of: > > > > > > > > Yastu sarvani bhutani aatmanyevanupashyate | > > > > Sarva bhuteshu chaatmaanam tato na vijugupsate || > > > > > > > > The very fear that I could be inferior binds me to the > > inferiority > > > > driving me to imbibe alien behavior and adapt alien conduct > > > > to " appear " superior … sulking away from my true presence with > > the > > > > Universal Absolute devoid of all such alienations of > superiority > > > and > > > > inferiority. > > > > > > > > The very desire that I should be superior keeps me inferior > > driving > > > > me to pursue alien objectives and tread alien conduit to " feel " > > > > superior … running away from my true presence with the > Universal > > > > Absolute devoid of all such alienations of superiority and > > > > inferiority. > > > > > > > > Appreciating our fear of inferiority and urge for superiority; > > > > acknowledging our ill-placed dependence in the two; > understanding > > > > the two as the root causes of all our miseries; and realizing > > that > > > > the two were and are nothing but figments of our illusions and > > > > hallucinations would eventually force our alien notions of fear > > and > > > > desire to drop away automatically since all the alienating > > factors > > > > that separate any entity from The Absolute are mitigated in the > > > > process. > > > > > > > > Yasmin sarvani bhutani aatmaivabhdvijanatah | > > > > Tatra ko mohah kah shokah ekatvamanupashyatah || > > > > > > > > The process is called SAMARPANA which is often translated > > > > as " surrendering " . Again, please note that > > > > > > > > 1. nobody has no rights to surrender anything since the very > > > > notion of owning something which could be possibly surrendered > > is a > > > > fallacy > > > > 2. there is nothing to surrender since everything is THAT as > > > > such > > > > 3. nothing can be surrendered to God because everything is GOD > > > > > > > > Should we come to this conclusion when logic fails? Should one > > drop > > > > Karma and Gnyana to attain Bhakti? NO. We should again > understand > > > > the subtle differences between information, logic and > knowledge. > > We > > > > should observe the subtle differences between the our > activities, > > > > work and action. We should appreciate the subtle differences > > > between > > > > desires, emotions and devotion. > > > > > > > > Using sensory evidences toward a logical existence of one's > > > presence > > > > is Sankhya. On the other hand, the mere awareness of one's > > presence > > > > is Gnyana. Though the individual awareness is apparently > > revealed > > > in > > > > one's sensory perception, all the perceptions are established > > > within > > > > this awareness in reality. But, our focus being driven by our > > > > cognitive mechanism hones on the perceptional evidence as > reality > > > > rather than the substratum from which the very cognition arises > > and > > > > into which the very cognition merges back. Gnyana is in the > > > > substratum while Sankhya dwells in the cognitive boundaries. > > > > Therefore, all logical deductions should be applied to > appreciate > > > > one's relativity … not to define The Absolute. Again, no logic > > can > > > > capture Gnyana … and yet, all logic when truthfully pursued > point > > > > toward the substratum, The Knowledge. > > > > > > > > The fact is, the cognition is the only mechanism that can help > > us > > > to > > > > appreciate its own limitations, faults and strengths. On one > > hand > > > it > > > > is the ignorance. On the other hand, it is the only weapon that > > can > > > > break the ignorance apart. Therefore, one cannot attain by > > dropping > > > > one's analytical prowess in spiritual progress when one feels > > > > frustrated while being unable to penetrate through one's > > ignorance. > > > > Infact, that is when the mechanism is the most useful. If the > > > > mechanism is applied properly, it will eventually drop by > itself > > to > > > > be with The Knowledge rather than with its playful fun and > > painful > > > > miseries. It should not buckle on any brick wall of ignorance > as > > > > such. It is also another fallacy that Bhakti raises when this > > > > mechanism stops. Anything devoid of Gnyana cannot be Bhakti: > > > > > > > > Kuru te ganga sagara gamanam vrataparipalanam athava daanam | > > > > Gnyanavihinah sarvamatena bhajati muktim janma shatena || > > > > > > > > Bhaja Gonidam bhaja Govindam Govindam bhaja mudhamate | > > > > Samsare sannihite kale nahi nahi rakshati dukrinkarane || > > > > > > > > Therefore, observation, analysis, appreciation, understanding > and > > > > realization is part of the tri-fold sadhana – Karma, Gnyana and > > > > Bhakti. Again remember … thoughts are NOT KNOWLEDGE … > activities > > > are > > > > NOT ACTION … emotions are NOT DEVOTION. Thoughts, activities > and > > > > emotions are alienatied from each other and trapped in ones > > > > individual existence while Knowledge, Action and Devotion are > > > > UNIVERSAL. Thoughts, activities and emotions are distinctly > > > > different. Knowledge, Action and Devotion are unanimously > > > synonymous > > > > to each other. Therefore, a Yogi whose activites are merged > along > > > > The Action is also a Gnyani whose thoughts are merged with The > > > > Knowledge and also a Bhakta whose experiences are merged in The > > > > Devotion. One without the other would remain mere thoughts or > > > > activities or emotions snowballing into ones storage of Vasanas > > > > (tendencies) becoming root cause for all our miseries. > > > > > > > > Respects. > > > > > > > > Naga Narayana. > > > > ---------------------------- -- > - > > > > , " sadhak_insight " > > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Following has been written in commentary to Chapter 18 Verse > > 61 > > > in > > > > > the Gitaji (Verses and their meaning) published by Gita > Press. > > > > > > > > > > Discarding shame, fear, praise and attachment; shedding > > feeling > > > of > > > > > me and mine from the body and the world; accepting God as the > > > sole > > > > > shelter, final destiation and every thing; non stop > > remembering > > > of > > > > > God's name, God's virtues, God's influence and God's form > with > > > > great > > > > > reverence, devotion and love; doing all worldly activities > and > > > > > duties keeping God in mind, as per God's orders/ > instructions, > > > > > without any worldly attachment and doing every thing only for > > > God. > > > > > This is true " Sharanagati " (Surrender to God). > > > > > > > > > > I have attempted to translate from Hindi to English myself > and > > > > hence > > > > > there may be some difference in the actual intention of the > > > > writer. > > > > > However, I personally feel that the translation is close to > > what > > > > has > > > > > been written. > > > > > > > > > > A.H.Dalmia > > > > > -------------------------- -- > -- > > -- > > > - > > > > > Naga ji has right understanding of the 'surrender' because > > self > > > > > realization is not an obligation towards anyone else but is > > > about > > > > > understanding of the truth. When two people fight over a > > > subject, > > > > > and finally an experiment proves the real position where both > > > > agree. > > > > > For example, in earlier days, some people thought of earth as > > > > centre > > > > > and sun encircling it, and another people thought just > > reverse. > > > In > > > > > final view, the later proved correct, and everybody accepted > > it > > > to > > > > > the one truth. In exactly similar way, the conflicts within > us > > > > finds > > > > > answer in universal knowledge of self realization and that > > which > > > > is > > > > > free from any conflict, is the truth. The mind thus > surrenders > > > to > > > > > superior most wisdom, and this is surrender to the God. Or in > > > > other > > > > > words, it is removal of ignorance. > > > > > > > > > > Sciences are evolved by inquiry into natural phenomena. > > > > Scientists, > > > > > and even philosophers get satisfied only when their mind is > at > > > > peace > > > > > by correct understanding. They write what they understood so > > > that > > > > > errors are removed, and people share the higher wisdom. This > > > truth > > > > > of sciences in observed objects or conduct of surrender and > > > people > > > > > follow laws discovered in sciences. One step above is Dharma > > or > > > > > knowledge about observer and character rather than conduct. > > One > > > > > step further is beyond the ultimate truth of life cycles and > > > > causes > > > > > of changes. In these way, surrender is a term for going > higher > > > in > > > > > ladder of awareness. > > > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > K G Misra > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------- -- > -- > > -- > > > - > > > > > -Shree Hari- > > > > > > > > > > In referance to the comment by Vyas N B: > > > > > > > > > > You spoke my life since that point of change. Indeed it is > the > > > > simple > > > > > truth, I at times find it hard to believe the way things have > > > > played > > > > > out, I just have to accept it with humility. I do mean > > humility. > > > > > I know I am among people with great knowledge of the Bhagavad > > > > Gita, > > > > > and indeed it seems to have an energy when I read it, even > > > though > > > > my > > > > > comprehension of it is poor. > > > > > The debate goes this way, then that way, " I disagree, I > > agree " . > > > To > > > > me > > > > > it is like, in a spiritual sense, a fan swishing over > > > smoldering > > > > > coals bringing them to life. > > > > > > > > > > With respect and Divine Love, > > > > > > > > > > Mike > > > > > (Mike Keenor) > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------- -- > -- > > > > > Remember Hindus, there is no " God " in the Gita. " God " is not > a > > > > Hindu > > > > > term. > > > > > Class Yoga > > > > > > > > > > From Moderator : Please suggest other words that represent > > That > > > > > Paramatma > > > > > Ram Ram > > > > > -------------------------- -- > -- > > -- > > > > > > > > > > , " sadhak_insight " > > > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Hari Om > > > > > > > > > > > > Oh! How nice it is to sit together and deliberate! > > Devotion , > > > > the > > > > > name God has infinite ways to gladden soul. Consider > > > clarification > > > > > of Mike. What he " experienced " was right. Whatever he read > was > > > > > debated. This is to be noted. Soul knows no barriers. > > Conscience > > > > is > > > > > always perfect. Your direct experience is infinite times > > better > > > > than > > > > > learning! Gita touches your soul. You are right Mike, the > > > > beginning > > > > > of spiritual journey does not always involve God being in > > focus. > > > > You > > > > > search for the truth and suddenly you get changed - > character, > > > > > habits, attitude, every thing changes for better. The same > > > world, > > > > > the same worldly people start looking different. Your focus > > > shifts > > > > > towards looking goodness in others and suddenly you realise > > > there > > > > > are people who help without expecting results. They were > there > > > in > > > > > the past also, Sure. But with change in us they are seen with > > > > > clarity. One day, and that day is not far for any determined > > > > > aspirant, will come when all around us will be revealed to us > > as > > > > God > > > > > and God only! > > > > > > > > > > > > That revelation in fact is the goal of every human being! > > > > > > > > > > > > Jai Shree Krishna > > > > > > > > > > > > Vyas N B > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------ -- > -- > > -- > > > - > > > > > > Hari Hari! > > > > > > > > > > > > I have but two short points. > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. The issue of whether one can actually surrender to God, > > as > > > > Naga > > > > > > Narayana has put the issue, actually pivots around two very > > > > > > different conceptions of God and jivas. The spiritual > > teacher > > > > > > (Swami Ramsukdasji) whose disciples host this discussion, > it > > > is > > > > my > > > > > > understanding that he has apparently taught that > > individuality > > > > is > > > > > an > > > > > > illusion of the material world, and upon liberation, we > > merge > > > > with > > > > > > the impersonal Supreme. I come from a line of teaching that > > > > > > considers individual identity to be eternal, and that each > > > > > > individual has an eternal relationship with the Supreme > > > > Personality > > > > > > of Godhead. With the second conception, the logic leading > > to > > > the > > > > > > conclusion of surrender and Bhakti is apparent. Generally, > > I've > > > > > > found that those following first line of teaching consider > > the > > > > > > second to be incorrect, and vice versa. I don't really > see a > > > > > > purpose in debating the point here; actually, I think > > everyone > > > > > > should pursue God in the way that they can believe in, and > > > > > > hopefully those of us who are farther can come nearer to > God > > > > > through > > > > > > devotion to our respective paths. > > > > > > > > > > > > 2. I mainly use a translation of the Bhagavad Gita that is > > well > > > > > > respected by religious studies departments and sanskrit > > > scholars > > > > > > throughout the world, what to speak of Vaishnava religious > > > > > > authorities. The translator comes from an established line > of > > > > > > teachers, and in his life he was an exemplary devotee: A.C. > > > > > > Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. It is readily available > > online > > > > with > > > > > > sanskrit, word-by-word translations. I have not referred > > > > > > to other's translations as possessing a " serious > > limitation, " > > > but > > > > > > rather have accepted your respected teacher's translations > > > > because > > > > > I > > > > > > know they are sacred to you. > > > > > > > > > > > > This is a very nice opportunity to learn about different > > > > > conceptions > > > > > > of God, and to use important questions (like that of > > > surrender) > > > > to > > > > > > delve deeper into our own philosophies. I hope it can be > done > > > > > > respectfully, now that we are aware of our philosophical > > > > > > differences. I think there is still much held in common. > > > > > > > > > > > > Hare Krishna, > > > > > > Hannah Sandal > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------ -- > -- > > -- > > > > > > How about saying surrender to ALMIGHTY who controls OUR > > > > Natural > > > > > > Habitat including Environmemt and Human Evolution itself? > > > > > > > > > > > > Mohan K Muju > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------ -- > -- > > -- > > > - > > > > > > , " sadhak_insight " > > > > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What is " surrendering " ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Samarpana – Bhakti – God > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No one can " surrender " to God. If something receives your > > > > > > > surrenderance, then it is NOT God. Surrendering involves > > two > > > > > > > distinct parties – one superior and the other inferior, > > both > > > > > being > > > > > > > limited owing to their mutually exclusive distinction > from > > > each > > > > > > > other. One who surrenders is not a Bhakta and one who is > > > > > > surrendered > > > > > > > to is not God either. One who surrenders is at worst a > > slave > > > > and > > > > > > one > > > > > > > who receives a surrenderer is at best a king. Note that > > both > > > a > > > > > > slave > > > > > > > and a king are nothing but slaves – individuals with no > > > > freedom. > > > > > > > Note that all the distinctions are arased between a > Bhakta > > > and > > > > > > God. > > > > > > > The very meaning of Bhakti is the mitigation of all > > > alienation > > > > of > > > > > > a > > > > > > > person with ereference to God. The Bhakta is as liberated > > as > > > > The > > > > > > God > > > > > > > as such due to the lack of all alienating notions between > > > the > > > > > two. > > > > > > > Therefore, the very term " surrender " is a fallacy in > > > spiritual > > > > > > > practice because the word has the popular cannotation > > > > of " giving > > > > > > > away something " or " sacrificing something " as if by force > > or > > > > by > > > > > no > > > > > > > other choice. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The sanskrit term " Samarpana " is often referred to as " to > > > > > > surrender " > > > > > > > since that is probably the best english word > > > > available. " Arpana " > > > > > > > means denying ownership of something; " samarpana " is > > denying > > > > the > > > > > > > very ownership in all respects – in actions, in thoughts > > as > > > > well > > > > > > as > > > > > > > in desires. The very denial is the only route to mitigate > > the > > > > > > > differences between subject and object, objects and > > objects, > > > > and > > > > > > God > > > > > > > and objects. All the distinctions between God, subject > and > > > > > objects > > > > > > > are rooted in the perceived notion of ownership as such. > > > > > Observing > > > > > > > the illusive and evasive nature of one's ego to hang on > to > > > one > > > > or > > > > > > > the other ownership, understanding the mythical unreality > > in > > > > all > > > > > > > such notions, and realizing that all our miseries are in > > fact > > > > > > rooted > > > > > > > in such notions as such is the sound process of purging > > all > > > the > > > > > > > notions of ownership within to liberate oneself to merge > > > with > > > > the > > > > > > > Universal Reality with no constraints or conditions of > any > > > > kind. > > > > > > > Therefore, " samarpana " is the path of devotion to reach > the > > > > > > Absolute > > > > > > > Freedom. There is nothing given up in samarpana. There is > > > > nothing > > > > > > > transacted in samarpana. There is nothing attained in > > > > samarpana. > > > > > > Not > > > > > > > seeking to give up, transact and attain is called Bhakti. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If surrendering is understood synanymous with samarpana, > > the > > > > very > > > > > > > act is the only Knowledge. Anything else is just > > > information. > > > > The > > > > > > > Bhakti (Samarpana) is the very Karma (The Act). The Karma > > is > > > > the > > > > > > > very Gnyana (The Knowledge). Thinking that the mind is > the > > > the > > > > > > > domain of knowledge is a huge misnomer. Understanding > that > > > the > > > > > > mind > > > > > > > is part of knowledge and knowledge is not part of mind is > > > the > > > > > true > > > > > > > knowledge. That is the true surrender (samarpana) from > > mind's > > > > > > > perspective. A Samarpita Manas (truly surrendered mind) > is > > > The > > > > > God > > > > > > > as such where the notion of surrendering never raises > > again. > > > A > > > > > > > samarpita manas cannot face any kind of " brick walls " – > > > > removing > > > > > > all > > > > > > > such obstacles is the role of logic (informational > > analysis – > > > > > > > Sankhya); NOT to create one! I would not agree that if > > > somebody > > > > > > > believes to be in Bhakti when one cannot think further as > > > Para > > > > > > > Bhakti. Para Bhakti incorporates proactive understanding > > > > (karma- > > > > > > > purita-gnyana) and realized acitivities (Gnyana-purita- > > > karma). > > > > > The > > > > > > > verses quoted by Mr. Keenor often tend to project variant > > > > notions > > > > > > > regarding Karma, Gnyana and Bhakti – but, only in their > > > > isolated > > > > > > > context. As I understand, Bhagavad Gita cannot create any > > > such > > > > > > > isolation. Everything is THAT alone in all respects > though > > > they > > > > > > may > > > > > > > appear as variant within one's perception. Breaking the > > > > barriers > > > > > > of > > > > > > > such perceptional isolation within one's mind is the role > > of > > > > the > > > > > > > logical observation (Sankhya). Sankhya cannot bring > > Gnyana – > > > > > logic > > > > > > > in any form cannot bring Knowledge. Sankhya becomes > Gnyana > > > in > > > > its > > > > > > > purity. So does the Karma. So does the Bhakti. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Tasyai tapo damah karmeti pratishtha – the Shraddha > > > > incorporating > > > > > > > focussed knowledge, controled desire and guided action is > > the > > > > > > > foundation for Samarpana. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Vedah sarvangani – all the sources of perception > > > (understanding > > > > > > all > > > > > > > perceptions to be as such without any trace of ownership) > > is > > > > the > > > > > > > domain of Samarpana. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Satyamayatanam – to be The Truth, The Absolute, The > Peace, > > > The > > > > > > Bliss > > > > > > > … to be ONE is THE SAMARPANA. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Therefore, I canot agree that TRUE SURRENDER (THE > > SAMARPANA) > > > > can > > > > > > > raise out of an incapable mind. It is the state of a very > > > > capable > > > > > > > mind. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Respects. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Naga Narayana. > > > > > > > ---------------------- -- > -- > > -- > > > -- > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Re Sadhak Hannah's views > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am indeed touched by the fact that inspite of the very > > > > serious > > > > > > > limitation of the translations of the verses adopted by > > you, > > > > some > > > > > > of > > > > > > > the conclusions arrived at by you were exceptionally > > > accurate. > > > > > You > > > > > > > may indeed call that grace of God and power and glory of > > > Gita > > > > and > > > > > > of > > > > > > > your devotion to God. . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > However let me tell you that had you had at your > disposal > > > > > English > > > > > > > Edition of Saadhak Sanjeevani written by Swamiji > > Ramsukhdasji > > > > > > > Maharaj , the entire interpretations of the verses would > > have > > > > > > taken > > > > > > > a divine shape. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For example what you called as " regulative principles of > > > > Bhakti > > > > > > > Yoga " is in fact " constant practice of (chanting etc) > > divine > > > > > > name > > > > > > > with equanimity having God as the aim " in 12:9 ! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 12:10 would have read - > > > > > > > > > > > > > > " If you are unable to practice as above , be thou intent > > on > > > > > > > performing ordained actions for Me , thus doing self less > > > > actions > > > > > > > for my sake, thou shalt achieve perfection " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The knowledge referred in Ch 12:12 is not Jnana Yoga in > > > > > entirety. > > > > > > > Here knowledge means mainly reading of scriptures, having > > > > > interest > > > > > > > in what is body, nature,self etc only and merely knowing > ( > > > not > > > > > > > realising or experiencing completely) that you are > > separate > > > > from > > > > > > > your body etc- in other words in very limited sense only > ( > > as > > > > > > there > > > > > > > is no yoga -equanimity attached with that). Here in > > > > > > 12:12 " practice " > > > > > > > referred is mere practice not " practice with equanimity > > > having > > > > > God > > > > > > > as aim " referred in 12:9 !! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Similarly there is a difference between " practice with > > > > > Equanimity > > > > > > > (abhyaas yogen)with keeping God as aim " referred in 12:9 > > and > > > > > > > mere " practice " referred in 12:10 (abhyaasepyasamartho) > > etc > > > > etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Similarly 12:12 does not entirely refer Karma Yoga but > > only > > > one > > > > > > > portion of that viz renunciation of fruits Karma Yoga is > > not > > > > > > wholly > > > > > > > and exclusively renunciation of fruits only!. Here > > > > > > > actually " renunciation " (tyaag) is more glorified > > > > > > than " renunciation > > > > > > > with equanimity " . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thus, Here in 12:12 an eternal principle gets > revealed - > > > > " every > > > > > > > renunciation results in instant peace " - > > > > > > > > > > > > > > " tyagatchhantimanantaram " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now this principle is applicable in every department of > > life, > > > > > > > everywhere universally! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Differences are subtle but when you practice or implement > > or > > > > try > > > > > > to > > > > > > > grasp they become extremely relevant and almost touch > your > > > > soul. > > > > > > > After all these verses are the voice of God ! ! Gita is a > > > > mirror, > > > > > > as > > > > > > > is your attitude so does it look ! ! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hence I agree with you that there is a need of a perfect > > > > > > translation > > > > > > > of these verses. They make sea of a difference.Here there > > is > > > > > > > importance of writer! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jai Shree Krishna > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Vyas N B > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------- -- > -- > > -- > > > -- > > > > -- > > > > > - > > > > > > > Hare Krishna > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Re Sadhak Mike " s Query > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As mentioned in the verses below, there are two kinds of > > > > > > devotional > > > > > > > service: the way of regulative principles and the way of > > full > > > > > > > attachment in love to the Supreme Personality of Godhead. > > For > > > > > > those > > > > > > > who are actually not able to follow the principles of > > Krishna > > > > > > > consciousness it is better to cultivate knowledge, > because > > by > > > > > > > knowledge one can be able to understand his real > position. > > > > > > Gradually > > > > > > > knowledge will develop to the point of meditation. By > > > > meditation > > > > > > one > > > > > > > can be able to understand the Supreme Personality of > > Godhead > > > > by a > > > > > > > gradual process. There are processes which make one > > > understand > > > > > > that > > > > > > > one himself is the Supreme, and that sort of meditation > is > > > > > > preferred > > > > > > > if one is unable to engage in devotional service. If one > > is > > > not > > > > > > able > > > > > > > to meditate in such a way, then there are prescribed > > duties, > > > as > > > > > > > enjoined in the Vedic literature, for the Brahmanas, > > > Ksatriyas, > > > > > > > Vaisyas and Sudras, which we shall find in the last > > chapter > > > of > > > > > > > Bhagavad-Gita. But in all cases, one should give up the > > > result > > > > or > > > > > > > fruits of labor; this means to employ the result of karma > > > for > > > > > some > > > > > > > good cause. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In summary, to reach the Supreme Personality of Godhead, > > the > > > > > > highest > > > > > > > goal, there are two processes: one process is by gradual > > > > > > > development, and the other process is direct. Devotional > > > > service > > > > > > in > > > > > > > Krishna consciousness is the direct method, and the other > > > > method > > > > > > > involves renouncing the fruits of one's activities. Then > > one > > > > can > > > > > > > come to the stage of knowledge, then to the stage of > > > > meditation, > > > > > > > then to the stage of understanding the Supersoul, and > then > > > to > > > > the > > > > > > > stage of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. One may take > > > > either > > > > > > the > > > > > > > step-by-step process or the direct path. The direct > > process > > > is > > > > > not > > > > > > > possible for everyone; therefore the indirect process is > > also > > > > > > good. > > > > > > > It is, however, to be understood that the indirect > process > > > is > > > > not > > > > > > > recommended for Arjuna, because he is already at the > stage > > of > > > > > > loving > > > > > > > devotional service to the Supreme Lord. It is for others, > > > who > > > > are > > > > > > > not at this stage; for them the gradual process of > > > > renunciation, > > > > > > > knowledge, meditation and realization of the Supersoul > and > > > > > Brahman > > > > > > > should be followed. But as far as Bhagavad-Gita is > > > concerned, > > > > it > > > > > > is > > > > > > > the direct method that is stressed. Everyone is advised > to > > > > take > > > > > to > > > > > > > the direct method and surrender unto the Supreme > > Personality > > > of > > > > > > > Godhead, Krishna > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your Servant > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Janardhana Dasa > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------- -- > -- > > -- > > > -- > > > > -- > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear friends > > > > > > > Vyas ji has ideas on Karma and Zyan and Bhakti and Yoga. > > In > > > the > > > > > > > Bhagwat Gita, these are soul of understanding. I will try > > to > > > > > > explain > > > > > > > it in the following way: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Take example of person(s) going from Delhi to Mumbai. In > > this > > > > > > > journey of self realization, everyone is in an act of > > > > loneliness, > > > > > > > birth and death in cycles after cycles, and wants to > > realize > > > > > truth > > > > > > > about him/herself. And when this destination is fixed, > YOGA > > > > > > starts. > > > > > > > YOGA is placing one on a path of self realization. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When an individual starts journey in search of truth, he > > > does > > > > it > > > > > > by > > > > > > > his/her natural instinct whatever it is. This knowledge > of > > > the > > > > > > > swabhaav is called ZYAN. Because this ZYAN is directed to > > > > (YOGA) > > > > > > the > > > > > > > path of self realization, it is called ZYAN YOGA. Has > this > > > ZYAN > > > > > > been > > > > > > > is not in a direction of self realization, that would be > > > > VISHAYA. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > By knowing the swbhaav, when individual works this is > > called > > > > > > KARMA. > > > > > > > At every new milestone, the swbhaav gets more pure, and > > this > > > is > > > > > > > called KARMA YOGA. But when individual does not know > > his/her > > > > > > > swbhaav and works not in the direction of self > > realization, > > > > this > > > > > > is > > > > > > > VYAVSAYA (from Vishaya). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When an individual is working all alone and reaches a > > stage > > > of > > > > > > self > > > > > > > realization, this is ZYAN YOGA and KARMA YOGA. In > Buddhist > > > > > > > tradition, this way is called HINAYAN (small vehicle). It > > has > > > > > > > advantage because an individual follows TAPAH > (endurance), > > > and > > > > > > > learns by mistakes, and quite clear in mind. In earlier > > > > periods, > > > > > > all > > > > > > > Yogis used to stay alone and meditate in forests. Krishna > > is > > > > > > Himself > > > > > > > this example. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In case when an individual finds another soul, and joined > > > with > > > > > it, > > > > > > > this togetherness is called BHAKTI. And when the people > in > > > > group > > > > > > > work and knowing right way, this is called BHAKTI YOGA. > > > > Buddhist > > > > > > > called it MAHA YAN (large vehicle). In this case, if > > Bhakti > > > is > > > > > > with > > > > > > > right Guru, the individual keeps following and reaches > > > > > > destination. > > > > > > > This is BHAKTI YOGA and KARMA YOGA. The ZYAN YOGA is > there > > > but > > > > > not > > > > > > > relevant because the right path of GURU is enough. > SoorDas > > > and > > > > > > > TulsiDas are example of saints who never lived in forests > > and > > > > > > never > > > > > > > fought war like Arjun, and they by their mind only > > followed > > > Ram > > > > > > and > > > > > > > Krishna. Zyan is there but not has any effect. It is like > > > > > > milistones > > > > > > > (Kota, Baroda) falling on the way from Delhi to Mumbai, > > and > > > the > > > > > > > passenger like TulsiDas never get it noticed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Arjun is the one who is together with Krishna (BHAKTI > > YOGA). > > > He > > > > > > got > > > > > > > explanation of every stage in the journey of self > > > realization > > > > or > > > > > > > self transformation to truth (ZYAN YOGA), and had to > fight > > a > > > > war > > > > > > > like living in dangerous forest (tapah, endurance) and > > > staying > > > > at > > > > > > > course is KARMA YOGA. All three. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Buddha says same thing in other words > > > > > > > Buddham Sharam Gachhami = " Go " to Truth (Karma YOGA) > > > > > > > Dhamman sharnam Gachhami'= by following your " self > > nature " > > > > (Zyan > > > > > > > YOGA) > > > > > > > Sangham sharnam Gachhami = go " together " (Bhakti YOGA) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Best regards > > > > > > > K G > > > > > > > (Krishna Gopal) > > > > > > > ---------------------- -- > -- > > -- > > > - > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -Shree Hari- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Clarification: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The comment on BG 3.3 was not mine but was on the > Bhagavad > > > > Gita I > > > > > > was > > > > > > > reading on line. Thus of course this does not change the > > > > wisdom > > > > > of > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > comments posted. > > > > > > > Surrender comment was based on personal experience, (and > > > that > > > > of > > > > > > > the man I met in strange circumstances). We both had one > > > thing > > > > in > > > > > > > common and that was to find the truth, (spiritual truth, > > not > > > > > > > necessarily God focussed). > > > > > > > I can only speak from my heart, (he has his own journey). > > > But > > > > one > > > > > > > reached a point where every perception one had fell away. > > A > > > > state > > > > > > of > > > > > > > absolute bewilderment. Of course I know now that the > brick > > > wall > > > > > > was > > > > > > > my > > > > > > > own ignorance. But I did then realize that I needed > Divine > > > > help. > > > > > > > The early Chapters that I have read seem to be around > these > > > > > > thoughts > > > > > > > of mine. > > > > > > > I have also learned that character change does happen. > One > > > does > > > > > > help > > > > > > > others without wanting for reward, in fact being at one > > with > > > > > those > > > > > > > that suffer. And of course always the intellect, but not > so > > > > > > blinded > > > > > > > by > > > > > > > the ego, knowing ultimately there is GOD. > > > > > > > This seems to fit in general with the comments, have > read. > > > > > > > I know there is much for me to learn. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > With respects and Divine Love. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mike Keenor > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------- -- > -- > > -- > > > -- > > > > -- > > > > > -- > > > > > > - > > > > > > > , " sadhak_insight " > > > > > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hari Om > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Re Sadhak Mike " s Query > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let us now talk about surrender. Your 2nd learned > > comment > > > is > > > > > > > indeed > > > > > > > > soul touching and is almost perfect. However as stated > in > > > > > > previous > > > > > > > > episode the Bhakti Yoga is independent and therefore > the > > > > > > surrender > > > > > > > > doesnot begin when the limitation of mind is realised. > > It > > > is > > > > a > > > > > > > > principle that mind and intellect cannot reach God > > because > > > > both > > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > part of Nature (Prakrati) and God is beyond the > Nature. > > > > > > However > > > > > > > > you can always change the focus ( direction) of mind > and > > > > > > intellect > > > > > > > > from the world to the God. That in itself is more than > > > > > > sufficient. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bhakti Yoga begins with the outlook - " I am of the God > > > and > > > > > only > > > > > > > God > > > > > > > > is mine, and nobody else is mine " and attains > perfection > > > when > > > > > > you > > > > > > > > start seeing/ experiencing presence of God everywhere. > > Read > > > > > > > > carefully the process differences given by me in the > > > previous > > > > > > > > edition. There are dozens or more such differences but > > due > > > to > > > > > > > space > > > > > > > > constraints I have given briefly. They are really > > > important > > > > > > from > > > > > > > > spiritual practice point of view. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From your second comment it has been revealed to me > that > > > you > > > > > > have > > > > > > > > set the goal for yourself to feel the presence of God > > > > > > everywhere. > > > > > > > > Believe me that goal is perfect- It is ultimate and > real > > > > Bhakti > > > > > > > Yoga- > > > > > > > > let me tell you. " VASUDEVAH SARVAM " – All this is God > > > (Gita > > > > > > > 7:19) > > > > > > > > is the final conclusion of Gita and the surrender is > the > > > > > > ultimate > > > > > > > > weapon which an aspirant has in his spiritual journey- > > > there > > > > is > > > > > > no > > > > > > > > doubt on these two. In fact Gita begins with surrender > ( > > > BG > > > > 2:7 > > > > > > > > quoted by you too) and ends with surrender (18:66). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > God starts conversation talking about " WORRYING " to > > Arjuna > > > ( > > > > > > 2:11) > > > > > > > > and ends his conversation telling Arjuna not to worry( > > > > 18:66). > > > > > > I > > > > > > > > would suggest you read " Saadhak Sanjeevani " a Treatise > > on > > > > Gita > > > > > > by > > > > > > > > Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj, the English Edition of > > which > > > is > > > > > > also > > > > > > > > there. That will solve translation confusions of the > > verses > > > > > > > forever > > > > > > > > for you and it is so vast, comprehensive and clear > that > > > > merely > > > > > > by > > > > > > > > reading you may change your perceptions and it shall > > > enthuse > > > > > you > > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > your journey in a miraculous manner. If I get address I > > may > > > > > > ensure > > > > > > > > you get latest copy of the same by post. In my eyes it > > is > > > an > > > > > > > > essential commentary and the ULTIMATE ON GITA. No > other > > > > > > detailed > > > > > > > > commentary has the depth of cross reference and can > even > > > be a > > > > > > > > semblance of it- it is my experience. It is the best on > > the > > > > > > > subject, > > > > > > > > written by a God realised soul exclusively to help > > > aspirants > > > > > > only. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hope I have been able to provide clarity. Everything > > which > > > I > > > > > > write > > > > > > > > is from the books and discourses of Swamiji only. Only > > the > > > > > > > > translation or presentation is mine. Pls do write if > > you > > > > need > > > > > > > more > > > > > > > > clarification . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jai Shree Krishna > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Vyas N B > > > > > > > > -------------------- -- > -- > > -- > > > -- > > > > -- > > > > > -- > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > , " sadhak_insight " > > > > > > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hari Hari! > > > > > > > > > In considering this current conversation, I looked to > > > > chapter > > > > > > > > twelve > > > > > > > > > of the Gita, entitled " Devotional Service " . Please > > > forgive > > > > my > > > > > > > > > quoting of several verses: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 12.6-7 But those who worship Me, giving up all their > > > > > > activities > > > > > > > > > unto Me and being devoted to Me without deviation, > > > engaged > > > > in > > > > > > > > > devotional service and always meditating upon Me, > > having > > > > > fixed > > > > > > > > their > > > > > > > > > minds upon Me, O son of Pritha for them I am the > swift > > > > > > deliverer > > > > > > > > > from the ocean of birth and death. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > BG 12.8: Just fix your mind upon Me, the Supreme > > > > Personality > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > Godhead, and engage all your intelligence in Me. Thus > > > you > > > > > will > > > > > > > > live > > > > > > > > > in Me always, without a doubt. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > BG 12.9: My dear Arjuna, O winner of wealth, if you > > > cannot > > > > > fix > > > > > > > > your > > > > > > > > > mind upon Me without deviation, then follow the > > > regulative > > > > > > > > > principles of bhakti-yoga. In this way develop a > > desire > > > to > > > > > > > attain > > > > > > > > Me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > BG 12.10: If you cannot practice the regulations of > > > bhakti- > > > > > > yoga, > > > > > > > > > then just try to work for Me, because by working for > > Me > > > you > > > > > > will > > > > > > > > > come to the perfect stage. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > BG 12.11: If, however, you are unable to work in this > > > > > > > > consciousness > > > > > > > > > of Me, then try to act giving up all results of your > > > work > > > > and > > > > > > > try > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > be self-situated. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > BG 12.12: If you cannot take to this practice, then > > > engage > > > > > > > > yourself > > > > > > > > > in the cultivation of knowledge. Better than > knowledge, > > > > > > however, > > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > meditation, and better than meditation is > renunciation > > > of > > > > the > > > > > > > > fruits > > > > > > > > > of action, for by such renunciation one can attain > > peace > > > of > > > > > > mind. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Here, Krishna outlines the options available to us, > and > > > > > > > encourages > > > > > > > > > them to pursue them to the best of our ability. He > > says > > > > that > > > > > > > > > cultivation of knolwedge (JYoga) and renunciation of > > the > > > > > > fruits > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > action (KYoga) are both beneficial on the path > towards > > > > > > > liberation > > > > > > > > > because they help us develop a " desire to attain " > God. > > > We > > > > can > > > > > > > use > > > > > > > > > our intelliegence to understand the philosophy of > God, > > > and > > > > we > > > > > > > > > can use our ability to renounce to practice > > controlling > > > our > > > > > > > mind. > > > > > > > > > Bhakti yoga provides principles to practice loving > > > service > > > > to > > > > > > > God. > > > > > > > > > We can see in 12.6-7 that the goal of all of this is > > to > > > be > > > > > > 100% > > > > > > > > > fixed in a relationship of devotional service with > the > > > > > Supreme > > > > > > > > Lord. > > > > > > > > > It is at this point that God provides liberation to > > > those > > > > who > > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > > devoted to him. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One final note, is that we are perhaps working from > > > > different > > > > > > > > > translations. I am of the opinion that each person > > should > > > > > > study > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > authors of the translations, and the quality of > > different > > > > > > > > > translations, and find the one that is most in line > > with > > > > > their > > > > > > > own > > > > > > > > > purposes. The differences arise from the difference > > > between > > > > > > > > > English and Sanskrit: there are words in Sanskrit > that > > > have > > > > > > many > > > > > > > > > meanings, and these meanings are dependant upon > > grammar, > > > > > > > spelling, > > > > > > > > > and context. Translation into English is not always > > > > > > > > straightforward, > > > > > > > > > and frequently depends upon the background and > purpose > > > of > > > > the > > > > > > > > > translator. You'll find, for example, a very > different > > > > > > > translation > > > > > > > > > of the Gita used for learning Sanskrit in American > > > > > > universities. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > your servant, > > > > > > > > > H. Sandal > > > > > > > > > (Hannah Sandal) > > > > > > > > > ------------------ -- > -- > > -- > > > -- > > > > > > > > > Dear Sadhakas, Namaste! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The essence of the verses mentioned by Mike Keenor > has > > > been > > > > > > > > captured > > > > > > > > > in his own words. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I would like to suggest, however, that we don't need > to > > > > > > consider > > > > > > > > any > > > > > > > > > one path being superior to other paths toward Self- > God > > > > > > > > Realization. > > > > > > > > > If Self-God realization were to mean freedom from > > > sorrows > > > > and > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > live in unconditional Love serving all, it is all the > > > more > > > > > > > > important > > > > > > > > > to see all paths being equal even if they differ in > > their > > > > > > > > > approaches. If the ultimate results are the same, > > there > > > is > > > > no > > > > > > > need > > > > > > > > > to compare any paths as being superior or inferior. > > > > Krishnaji > > > > > > > may > > > > > > > > > have said only to emphasize that all can attain such > > > > freedom > > > > > > > even > > > > > > > > if > > > > > > > > > they are not prone to one or the other paths. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We need to see that God is not separate from such a > > > Gyani, > > > > or > > > > > > > > Karma- > > > > > > > > > Yogi or Devotee! Gita says God is Devotion in > Bhakta, > > > > Truth- > > > > > > > Being- > > > > > > > > > Self in Gyani and self-less actions in Karm-Yogi. > > > > Ultimately > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > what happens to Bhakta(Devotee), Karma-Yogi(person of > > > > > selfless > > > > > > > > > action), and Gyani(Self-realized). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Some of us are naturally inclined to do Karmas! To > > make > > > > their > > > > > > > > Karmas > > > > > > > > > not binding and yet serve those who are in need, Gita > > > > > > prescribes > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > Karma-Yoga meaning self-less actions. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > By performing actions without assuming doership, > > guided > > > by > > > > > > > > > righteousness, frees one from Bondage due to karmas. > > > Unless > > > > > > one > > > > > > > > has > > > > > > > > > total devotion while performing actions and total > > > > surrender > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > results to God, one just cannot do such self-less > > > actions. > > > > > > Thus > > > > > > > > > Karma-Yogi is also doing Bhakti, leading to freedom > > > (moksha) > > > > > > from > > > > > > > > > sorrows. He will eventually realize his true nature > > > being > > > > > Sat- > > > > > > > Chit- > > > > > > > > > Ananda(Supreme Consciousness, not an individual). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In the same way one who is given to inquiry, is a > Truth > > > > > > Seeker. > > > > > > > > > He/She will in time become Truth Lover by seeking > > > nothing > > > > but > > > > > > > > Truth. > > > > > > > > > Upon experiencing glimpses of truth in daily life, > the > > > > > > devotion > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > Truth becomes intense. So again such a truth lover is > > > also > > > > > > > devotee- > > > > > > > > > bhakta of Truth, same as God and then attains > > knowledge > > > of > > > > > who > > > > > > > > > he/she is in reality and thus perfection! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In my experience, one just doesn't follow only one > > path, > > > > > > rather > > > > > > > > one > > > > > > > > > integrates all such paths and God given resoureces! > As > > > we > > > > all > > > > > > > > know, > > > > > > > > > no one can remain without actions, and all of us have > > > > quality > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > devotion at least in something we do! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In the times we are living at present, it is more > > > > appropriate > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > perform Karmas with the best of one's ability to > serve > > > > > > humanity, > > > > > > > > > assuming no-doership thereof and to accept or rather > > > > welcome > > > > > > > > results > > > > > > > > > of such actions. This will automatically leads one to > > > > wonder > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > inquire about the nature of God, world, and oneself. > > Upon > > > > > > > > > contemplation of all three, one will realize the > truth > > > of > > > > > them > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > eventually get established in True Self. Out of such > > > > > knowledge > > > > > > > one > > > > > > > > > becomes a mystic, so to speak, and his/her existence > is > > > > > > aligned > > > > > > > > with > > > > > > > > > Totality or wholeness of Being in which individuality > > is > > > > > > > absorbed. > > > > > > > > > God is just the name to such Experience of Being > > > > everything, > > > > > > > which > > > > > > > > > is Absolute Existence and thus Ananda. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Namaskars...Pratap > > > > > > > > > (Pratap Bhatt) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------ -- > -- > > -- > > > -- > > > > -- > > > > > -- > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " sadhak_insight " > > > > > > > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hari Om > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You have sought comments on certain verses of Gita > > > > dealing > > > > > > > with > > > > > > > > > > Jnana Yoga (JY) , Karma Yoga (KY) and Bhakti Yoga > > > (BY) > > > > and > > > > > > on > > > > > > > > two > > > > > > > > > > learned comments, that formulated your thinking. I > > > shall > > > > > > > briefly > > > > > > > > > > take you through the best on the subject to impart > > > total > > > > > > > > clarity. > > > > > > > > > > The answer shall be in minimum two installments of > > one > > > > page > > > > > > > > each, > > > > > > > > > > maximum three. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > First Bhagavad Gita 3:3. The correct translation of > > the > > > > > > verse > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > as > > > > > > > > > > under - " O Sinless Arjuna, in this world a two > > fold > > > > path > > > > > > > has > > > > > > > > > been > > > > > > > > > > enunciated by Me before, the Path of Knowledge > > (Jnana > > > > Yoga > > > > > > or > > > > > > > > > > Sankhya Yoga) for men of renunciation and the Path > > of > > > > > > Action > > > > > > > > for > > > > > > > > > > men of action (Karma Yoga) " . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The correct translation of BG 3:7 is - " But he who > > > > controls > > > > > > > his > > > > > > > > > > senses through the mind, O Arjuna, and engages > > himself > > > in > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > path > > > > > > > > > > of action, with the organs of action and sense, > > without > > > > > > being > > > > > > > > > > attached, is superior. " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your comment that - " The karmi and jnani are > > different > > > in > > > > > > name > > > > > > > > > only. > > > > > > > > > > Actually, persons engaged in karma become pure > > hearted > > > > > > jnanis > > > > > > > by > > > > > > > > > > their actions. And the jnanis become liberated by > > > > > bhakti. " - > > > > > > > > > > > > > > can > > > > > > > > > > not be said to be entirely correct. Because it pre > > > > suposses > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > outcome or the end result of these exercises > > > is " purity > > > > of > > > > > > > > heart " > > > > > > > > > > while actually the end result of both of them > > > > > > is " liberation " . > > > > > > > > > > Further the comment that they are different names > > only > > > is > > > > > > > right > > > > > > > > > from > > > > > > > > > > only end result perspective and certainly not from > > the > > > > > > process > > > > > > > > > > followed by them and by the attitude of a Jnana > Yogi > > > and > > > > a > > > > > > > Karma > > > > > > > > > > Yogi. (Refer last para of this edition). Secondly > > this > > > > > > comment > > > > > > > > > > presumes that Bhakti is necessary for liberation, > but > > > > > > actually > > > > > > > > > > Bhakti gets you ever increasing love of God in > > > addition > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > liberation. Your translation also of the verse > does > > > not > > > > > > bring > > > > > > > > out > > > > > > > > > > Karma Yoga clearly and gets rather tilted towards > > > bhakti > > > > > > when > > > > > > > > you > > > > > > > > > > refer devotional service. Here are some good > > > revelations. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In this verse the term " loke " stands for " in this > > > > world " . > > > > > > > Here > > > > > > > > > only > > > > > > > > > > two yogas (paths) have been described, not three. > > > Bhakti > > > > > > Yoga > > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > > absent here. Reason is that while Jnana Yoga and > > > Karma > > > > > Yoga > > > > > > > > > > are " laukik " (worldly – beliefs/paths to be > > practiced > > > in > > > > > > > > relation > > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > the world and worldly things), the Bhakti Yoga > > > > > > is " alaukik " > > > > > > > > > > (beyond this world - divine, special path, a > > > belief/path > > > > to > > > > > > be > > > > > > > > > > practiced in relation to God). Refer also > discussion > > > > below > > > > > > > > dealing > > > > > > > > > > with perishable/imperishable - both of which > > elements > > > are > > > > > > > > worldly > > > > > > > > > > only. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The term " nishtha " stands for Equanimity, which can > > be > > > > > > either > > > > > > > > > > attained through the path of knowledge or through > > path > > > of > > > > > > > > action. > > > > > > > > > > (There is very little need of equanimity in fact in > > > > Bhakti > > > > > > > > Yoga) – > > > > > > > > > > Refer distinction made by God in Gita 2:39. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Corresponding to these two paths there are two > types > > of > > > > > > > purushas > > > > > > > > > > (men) – Gita 15:16 – one Akshar (Immortal self) and > > > > > > > two " Kshar " > > > > > > > > > > (mortal world). To remain equanimous in success or > > > > failure, > > > > > > or > > > > > > > > > > profits or losses (dualities) etc. of the > perishable > > is > > > > > > Karma > > > > > > > > > Yoga, > > > > > > > > > > while having disinclination for the perishable and > > > being > > > > > > > > > established > > > > > > > > > > in imperishable (self) is Sankhya or Jnana Yoga. > But > > > > above > > > > > > > these > > > > > > > > > two > > > > > > > > > > there is the Supreme Person who is beyond the > > > > perishable, > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > > superior to the imperishable, called as Paramatma > > > (God) > > > > in > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > scriptures and Veda (Gita 15:18). Thus a whole > > hearted > > > > > > > surrender > > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > God, is called Discipline of Devotion (Bhakti > Yoga). > > In > > > > > > Karma > > > > > > > > Yoga > > > > > > > > > > there is predominance of perishable, in Sankhya > Yoga > > > > there > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > > predominance of imperishable and in Bhakti Yoga > > there > > > is > > > > > > > > > > predominance of God. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The state of " nishtha " (Equanimity) can be attained > > by > > > > > > > strivers, > > > > > > > > > > either through knowledge or through Action, but > > > > > > identification > > > > > > > > > with > > > > > > > > > > the God, is not their own (nishtha). In Sankhya > > state, > > > > > > > strivers > > > > > > > > > > experience distinctly, the existence of their own > > > > selves, > > > > > as > > > > > > > > well > > > > > > > > > > as, that of the world and try to cut asunder the > > > affinity > > > > > > for > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > world. A Karma Yogi offers to the world, everything > > > > > > (including > > > > > > > > > even > > > > > > > > > > his body), that he has derived from it and removes > > > > affinity > > > > > > > > from > > > > > > > > > > the world. In this way both of them get established > > in > > > > > their > > > > > > > > true > > > > > > > > > > form – the self. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Neither think others as evil doers, nor wish evil > to > > > > others > > > > > > > nor > > > > > > > > do > > > > > > > > > > evil to others- with this outlook " Karma Yoga " > > begins. > > > > > > Nothing > > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > > mine, I need nothing and I have to do nothing for > > > > myself – > > > > > > by > > > > > > > > > > accepting this truth " Jnana (Sankhya) Yoga " > begins. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The beauty is that in both the paths of JY and KY > > > there > > > > is > > > > > > no > > > > > > > > need > > > > > > > > > > of even thinking about/ focusing/ accepting the > > > > existence > > > > > of > > > > > > > God > > > > > > > > > at > > > > > > > > > > all. Both JYs and KYs get liberated easily without > > > even > > > > > > > > imagining > > > > > > > > > > about God. It is only in BY that God comes into > > picture > > > > > > right > > > > > > > > from > > > > > > > > > > beginning. In both JY and KY the God is optional > not > > > at > > > > all > > > > > > > > > > compulsory even upto the final stage. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You, Mike has presumed an order of KY first, then > JY > > > and > > > > > > then > > > > > > > BY > > > > > > > > > as > > > > > > > > > > the last. Gita does not to that view. In > > > Gita > > > > it > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > JY, > > > > > > > > > > then KY (superior to JY) and then BY (best ). > > However > > > all > > > > > > > three > > > > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > > > Independent ways of liberation. If you are > > determined > > > > then > > > > > > > you > > > > > > > > > need > > > > > > > > > > not take another or additional route to continue > your > > > > > > journey, > > > > > > > > > > unless when you want love of God also. All three > get > > > you > > > > > > > > > > liberation. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The aforesaid orders therefore are from comfort > > point > > > of > > > > > > view > > > > > > > > only. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now coming to how they are different from process > > > point > > > > of > > > > > > > view. > > > > > > > > > In > > > > > > > > > > JY you use your power of " knowing " , in KY your > power > > > > > > > of " doing " > > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > in BY your power of belief/acceptance. In JY your > > > > > conscience > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > guiding force, in KY it is action and in BY it is > > > > emotions > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > > faith/belief. In JY you depend upon self, in KY > upon > > > duty > > > > > > and > > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > > BY > > > > > > > > > > upon God. In JY you renounce ego, in KY " desires " > > and > > > in > > > > BY > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > mineness with the world. In JY you eliminate ego, > in > > > KY > > > > you > > > > > > > > > > modify/purify ego and in BY you change your ego. > In > > > JY > > > > you > > > > > > > > become > > > > > > > > > > equal to God, in KY near to God and in BY > > indivisible > > > > with > > > > > > > God. > > > > > > > > A > > > > > > > > > JY > > > > > > > > > > is useful to himself, a KY is useful to the world > > and > > > a > > > > BY > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > God. In JY your desire to " know something " is > > > > extinguished, > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > > > KY " to do something " and in BY to get something. In > > JY > > > > you > > > > > > > > > renounce > > > > > > > > > > the doership first, in KY you renounce > > > the " enjoyership " > > > > > and > > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > BY > > > > > > > > > > you renounce the " mineness " with the worldly > people. > > > In > > > > JY > > > > > > you > > > > > > > > get > > > > > > > > > > pleased by self, in KY by seeing others happy, in > BY > > by > > > > > > making > > > > > > > > God > > > > > > > > > > happy.In JY you don't do anything, in KY you do for > > > > others > > > > > > > only > > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > in BY you do for God. In JY you surrender the > things > > to > > > > > > > Nature, > > > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > > > KY to the world and in BY to the God.In JY obstacle > > is > > > > your > > > > > > > ego > > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > body, in KY obstacle is your attachment with > worldly > > > > > > pleasures > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > in BY the obstacle is remaining away from God. In > JY > > > your > > > > > > > karmas > > > > > > > > > get > > > > > > > > > > burnt, in KY they become " akarmas " (fruitless) and > > in > > > BY > > > > > > they > > > > > > > > > > become " divya " ( divine). In JY you don't desire > > > anything > > > > > > from > > > > > > > > > > anyone, in KY you fulfil desires of others and in > BY > > > you > > > > > > merge > > > > > > > > > your > > > > > > > > > > desires into the desire of God. In JY you don't > > > consider > > > > > > > anyone > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > be " mine " , in KY all in the world are yours but > for > > > > > > selfless > > > > > > > > > > service only, and in BY only God is yours. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Balance in next edition. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jai Shree Krishna > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Vyas N B > > > > > > > > > > ---------------- -- > -- > > -- > > > -- > > > > -- > > > > > -- > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > > It is very interesting to read your teachings ! I > > > > > personally > > > > > > > > feel > > > > > > > > > > that if one can use the ' INDRIYAS' as tools, ( > The > > > > > sensory > > > > > > > > > > organs ) then, one uses the eyes to its fullest - > > which > > > > > > means > > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > > the job of the eyes is only to report - see and > > > report - > > > > > > but, > > > > > > > we > > > > > > > > > > then remember that all the further decisions are > > made > > > by > > > > > the > > > > > > > > atma > > > > > > > > > or > > > > > > > > > > the self which is the life - and if this self is > > > > manifested > > > > > > > with > > > > > > > > > > desires - it does not follow the righteous path, > > then > > > the > > > > > > eyes > > > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > > > not to blame for reporting ! The BG is the best > tool > > > > which > > > > > > > > teaches > > > > > > > > > > us how to use these indriyas to our betterment - > not > > to > > > > > > > > > destruction > > > > > > > > > > with desires !! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Prapati > > > > > > > > > > ---------------- -- > -- > > -- > > > -- > > > > -- > > > > > -- > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > - > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > gita- talk , " sadhak_insight " > > > > > > > > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -Shree Hari- > > > > > > > > > > > I would very much appreciate any comments or > > > guidance > > > > on > > > > > > my > > > > > > > > > > thoughts > > > > > > > > > > > below regarding surrender, > > > > > > > > > > > I have listed some of the chapters plus a learned > > > > > comment, > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > > > formulated my thinking. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > BG 2.7 > > > > > > > > > > > " Now I am confused about my duty and have lost > all > > > > > > composure > > > > > > > > > > because > > > > > > > > > > > of miserly weakness. In this condition I am > asking > > > You > > > > to > > > > > > > tell > > > > > > > > > me > > > > > > > > > > for > > > > > > > > > > > certain what is best for me. Now I am Your > > disciple, > > > > and > > > > > a > > > > > > > soul > > > > > > > > > > > surrendered unto You. Please instruct me. " > > > > > > > > > > > BG 3.3 > > > > > > > > > > > The Supreme Personality of Godhead said: O > sinless > > > > > Arjuna, > > > > > > I > > > > > > > > have > > > > > > > > > > > already explained that there are two classes of > > men > > > who > > > > > > try > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > > realize > > > > > > > > > > > the self. Some are inclined to understand it by > > > > > empirical, > > > > > > > > > > > philosophical speculation, and others by > devotional > > > > > > service. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A comment on 3.3 > > > > > > > > > > > The karmi and jnani are different in name only. > > > > > Actually > > > > > > > > > persons > > > > > > > > > > > engaged in karma become pure hearted jnanis by > the > > > > > > actions. > > > > > > > > And > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > jnanis become liberated by bhakti. This is > meaning > > > of > > > > all > > > > > > my > > > > > > > > > words. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > BG 3.7 > > > > > > > > > > > On the other hand, if a sincere person tries to > > > control > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > active > > > > > > > > > > > senses by the mind and begins karma-yoga [in > > Krishna > > > > > > > > > consciousness] > > > > > > > > > > > without attachment, he is by far superior. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Surrender:- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From my readings it appears that with jnana , > > > > ultimately > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > aspirant, can hit a brick wall as it were, the > > mind > > > > finds > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > > place > > > > > > > > > > > it cannot proceed beyond. At that point to > > > surrender > > > > to > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > Divine > > > > > > > > > > > Lord without reservation, to no longer think in > > pure > > > > > logic > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > Absolute Truth, and to follow faithfully the path > > > that > > > > > > opens > > > > > > > > > > before > > > > > > > > > > > you with courage. Can open the eyes with wonder, > > as > > > the > > > > > > Lord > > > > > > > > > shows > > > > > > > > > > > his presence in all that is revealed, how can a > > soul > > > be > > > > > > > > anything > > > > > > > > > > but > > > > > > > > > > > bhakti, after such a moment of truth? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > With Respect and Divine Love, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mike > > > > > > > > > > > (Mike Keenor) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------- -- > -- > > -- > > > -- > > > > -- > > > > > -- > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > - > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > GUIDELINES FOR POSTING A RESPONSE: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. The group is focused on the Holy Gitaji, > > > therefore, > > > > > > only > > > > > > > > > > > responses which further clarify the understanding > > of > > > > > > Gitaji, > > > > > > > > > will > > > > > > > > > > be > > > > > > > > > > > posted. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2. Making reference of Gitaji shloka is highly > > > > > encouraged - > > > > > > > > > > > > > at > > > > > > > > > > least > > > > > > > > > > > once in the response. Wherever possible, please > > > quote > > > > > > > Gitaji > > > > > > > > or > > > > > > > > > > > other scriptures to substantiate your response. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3. Please be as concise and to the point as > > possible, > > > > > > > > respecting > > > > > > > > > > > sadhaka's time. Under no circustance the answer > > > should > > > > > > > exceed > > > > > > > > > say > > > > > > > > > > > one page at the most (500 words or so). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 4. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, > > beliefs > > > > etc. > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > extent that they further help in understanding > the > > > Gita > > > > > > > shlokas > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at > > hand > > > > only. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 6. Please do not include links to the other sites > > or > > > > > other > > > > > > > > > > > organizations. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 7. Complete reproduction of texts from any book > is > > > > > > strongly > > > > > > > > > > > discouraged, however references may be made of > > the > > > > book > > > > > > or > > > > > > > > > author > > > > > > > > > > > (but not links to other sites). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 8. Kindly do not include your personal > information > > > > such > > > > > as > > > > > > > > phone > > > > > > > > > > > number, address etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 9. Please do not address the response to a > > particular > > > > > > > > individual > > > > > > > > > > > since the message is going to the entire group. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 10. Due to the large readership, only those > > > responses > > > > > will > > > > > > > be > > > > > > > > > > posted > > > > > > > > > > > which are in line with the general philosophy of > > > taking > > > > > > > > Shrimad > > > > > > > > > > > Bhagavad Gita as the reference. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 11. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the > > > > posting, > > > > > > if > > > > > > > > > > content > > > > > > > > > > > is unclear for distribution or not directly > > related > > > to > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > question > > > > > > > > > > > being asked. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 12. Please respond taking into consideration the > > > > novices, > > > > > > > > youth, > > > > > > > > > > > westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit > > the > > > > use > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > only > > > > > > > > > > > Sanskrit words, rather provide the English word > > with > > > > > > > Sanskrit > > > > > > > > > > > bracketed wherever possible. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > MODERATOR > > > > > > > > > > > Ram Ram > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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