Please Clarify Message on Real Seeker and His Quest for Liberation

[Guest guest]

The statement you have made here misses the mark by a million miles.

It does not in any way take into account the fact that many come to

realisation without having any previous interest OR desire for it at

all.

 

There is ONLY enlightenment, all are already Divine, and the seeking

of this is the very thing that prevents the seeing of this fact.

There is ONLY the Divine including that idea that there is other

than the Divine.

Avasa

(Adrian Meyers)

----------------------------

 

Namaskar,

 

In your article you have mentioned that a sadhak having true longing

for his spiritual betterment will not last with a Guru if he is

unable to attain salvation through Him.

 

The above is totally in contradiction with the Guru-shishya

parampara which Bharat is famous for. In fact if you take the

history of many Saints including that of Adhishankaracharya

(Gyanyogi) the role play of The Guru is what leads the Disciple

towards ultimate liberation. It is in fact The Guru who chooses his

Disciple and not the other way around.

 

And once accepted by a Guru, The Disciple just obeys his Guru's

advice and with The Guru's grace attains Gyan, Bhakthi and

Vairagya. Guru's grace alone guides him in his further spiritual

journey and leads him to Final liberation. (Mumukshatva)

 

If a sadhak chooses to leave his Guru, it is not because of his

intense yearning(tulmul) for liberation,(as you have explained) but

only due to his high ego, with which he will never realise his aim

of self realisation. A true sadhak gets guidance from his Guru, even

if the Guru has given away his gross body(sthula deha). Because the

disciple does 'adhnyapalan " of his Guru's words and becomes more and

more introverted that the Nirgun Gurutatva starts guiding him from

within. Ref (Path of Guru's Grace) vol-4 of Science of Spirituality

published by Santan Sanstha.

 

Please write your articles very clearly, without leaving room for

misinterpretations. What you have really wanted to convey in your

article is actually that a real seeker does not stop at anything

until he reaches his goal. But the message below gives

out a completely different meaning.

 

Gratitude.

Gurucharni.

Chitra Srini

 

-----------------------------

[sadhaka] All That is Needed is Intense Longing for

Salvation (July 12, 2008)

sadhaka

Saturday, July 12, 2008, 5:00 AM

 

:Shree Hari:

 

12th July, 2008, Saturday

Aashaad Shukla Navami, Vikram Samvat 2065, Shanivar

 

A Sadhak (Spiritual Aspirant) who has a true longing for his

spiritual betterment and salvation, will not last anywhere without

attaining salvation. If he finds a Guru, but is unable to attain

salvation through him, then he will not last with that Guru. If he

becomes a sadhu (ascetic), but still does not attain salvation, then

there too he will not last long. If he joins an organization, there

too he will not last. Until a hungry man, does not get food, how

can he rest? If there is deep and intense longing for salvation,

he will be unable to stay put anywhere. Staying put is simply not

in his hands. He will stay rested, only where his deep spiritual

longing is fulfilled.

 

Out of great fortune and luck, one receives satsang (association

with truth) - " Bade bhaag paayib satsangaa " (Manasa. Utter. 33:4).

But in that same scripture (granth) that writes about great fortune,

it is also written, " Jehi ke Jehi per satya sanehu. So tehi

milayee ne kachu sandehu. " (Manasa., Baal. 259:3). One who has a

real and intense longing for spiritual truths, will certainly

receive real satsang (association of good company, Truth).

 

He who has a real longing for salvation, he will receive the

opportunity for salvation and spiritual betterment - there is no

doubt about it. In this matter, it is not about one's luck or

fortune.

 

In worldly matters such as acquisition of wealth, it is essential to

have three things.

1) Desire for wealth,

2) Effort to acquire the wealth and

3) Luck (fortune).

 

But God Realization is possible by mere longing / desiring. This

human body has been received for the purpose of God Realization. If

God is not attained, than how did this human body in anyway, aid in

achieving this aim and purpose? Thus, by giving up worldly desires,

exclusively awaken within the inquiry into the Self (Atma) or awaken

within an intense longing for God Realization. In this is the

success of human life.

 

From " Mere Toh Giridhar Gopal, Dusero ne Koyi, " in Hindi pg 19 by

Swami Ramsukhdasji Maharaj.

[Guest guest]

Hari Om

 

With reference to the message posted on the above subject and views

of learned Saadhaks, I humbly submit that in this article Swamiji

has described the momentum to which a saadhak reaches when the true

longing/ desire in him arises for salvation/ realisation. As rightly

concluded by Guru Charanji and Chitra Sriniji, here the intention is

to reflect that a true seeker does not stop at anything once true

longing/desire in him awakens. There are many other continuing

examples given in the article to reflect this intention. You are

right that Guru/ Shishya parampara ( Spiritual Master / Disciple

tradition) is very pious and yielded great results in the past to

the saadhaks and disciples. But then, now, in this Kaliyuga, we find

rather too many Gurus directing disciples more towards themselves

rather than towards Paramatma (God) and we notice that quite often,

a seeker finds himself empty handed in the end, many times even

cheated. It is those type of Gurus which are referred in this

Article - not real , desireless, egoless Gurus carrying traditions

of olden times.

 

As regards the observation of Adrian Meyers, let me state that even

Swamiji on many occasions stated/written in his articles that there

are situations when realisation can take place without having any

previous interest or desire for it at all. Desire is a mean, not an

end. Yes, there is only enlightenment, all are already divine, and

in the end (at final stage) this desire to realise Paramatma also

has to be relinquished by saadhak (Spiritual aspirant). You get

Paramatma realisation ONLY when you are in a totally desire less

mode. In fact, in the last speech of Swamiji, which was posted on

this site during this month only (around 2nd/3rd July), there is a

confirmation of the views of Adrian Meyers.

 

But that does not mean that a spiritual aspirant should not desire

for Paramatma at the beginning of his journey. It is a must.

Nothing can replace the role of intense desire for Paramatma in

realisation. JUST AS: When you reach door steps of a temple/ church

etc, you relinquish/ leave your shoes, vehicle etc. outside only

e.g. you leave the very means of reaching to temple outside, and go

before the Paramatma deity all alone, SIMILARLY at the final stage

of Paramatma Realisation you leave even the desire for realisation

outside and go all alone - desireless! The fact that the element

(Essence) is ever existing is undeniable and there is nothing in the

article which disputes this fact (rather there can never be a denial

of this fact in any article written by Swamiji). We ourselves employ

the word " REALISATION " and not " GETTING " , whenever we talk about

salvation etc. It is a fact that the element is already received by

us. It is realising/ discovering/ remembering an already available

but forgotten thing. Hence there is no contradiction of any sort

whatsoever in the concept

 

Here the article was not on the Paramatma Realisation, the article

was on the means thereof viz. intense desire, the momentum which an

aspirant gathers in his journey, and the role of intense desire as

well as Satsanga (good company). There is nothing wrong, therefore,

in the article or in the translation. It is accurate, not an inch

missing the mark, leave aside million miles or light years missing

the mark. Not an inch in fact..

 

Therefore, I would urge, in all humbleness to fellow aspirants to

appreciate the fact that these short messages are picked from

Swamiji's books and are translated from Hindi to English as it is.

Many times the messages are chosen with reference to one subtle

principle only and the moderator stops translating further and hence

the totality of the article gets limited/suffers a need for

explanation. That then is a reflection on the translator ONLY and on

the space constraints regarding the size of message ONLY. In reality

the latter reason is more operative. However, the translation of

this article, the text , tenor, intention is absolutely blemishless.

Please trust me, I am not moderator or translator, I am as good a

fellow saadhak as are all others like Adrian or Guru Charanji.

 

With sincere respects and divine regards to all fellow Saadhaks

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

 

--

, " sadhak_insight "

<sadhak_insight wrote:

>

> The statement you have made here misses the mark by a million

miles.

> It does not in any way take into account the fact that many come to

> realisation without having any previous interest OR desire for it

at

> all.

>

> There is ONLY enlightenment, all are already Divine, and the

seeking

> of this is the very thing that prevents the seeing of this fact.

> There is ONLY the Divine including that idea that there is other

> than the Divine.

> Avasa

> (Adrian Meyers)

> ----------------------------

>

> Namaskar,

>

> In your article you have mentioned that a sadhak having true

longing

> for his spiritual betterment will not last with a Guru if he is

> unable to attain salvation through Him.

>

> The above is totally in contradiction with the Guru-shishya

> parampara which Bharat is famous for. In fact if you take the

> history of many Saints including that of Adhishankaracharya

> (Gyanyogi) the role play of The Guru is what leads the Disciple

> towards ultimate liberation. It is in fact The Guru who chooses his

> Disciple and not the other way around.

>

> And once accepted by a Guru, The Disciple just obeys his Guru's

> advice and with The Guru's grace attains Gyan, Bhakthi and

> Vairagya. Guru's grace alone guides him in his further spiritual

> journey and leads him to Final liberation. (Mumukshatva)

>

> If a sadhak chooses to leave his Guru, it is not because of his

> intense yearning(tulmul) for liberation,(as you have explained) but

> only due to his high ego, with which he will never realise his aim

> of self realisation. A true sadhak gets guidance from his Guru,

even

> if the Guru has given away his gross body(sthula deha). Because the

> disciple does 'adhnyapalan " of his Guru's words and becomes more

and

> more introverted that the Nirgun Gurutatva starts guiding him from

> within. Ref (Path of Guru's Grace) vol-4 of Science of Spirituality

> published by Santan Sanstha.

>

> Please write your articles very clearly, without leaving room for

> misinterpretations. What you have really wanted to convey in your

> article is actually that a real seeker does not stop at anything

> until he reaches his goal. But the message below gives

> out a completely different meaning.

>

> Gratitude.

> Gurucharni.

> Chitra Srini

>

> -----------------------------

> [sadhaka] All That is Needed is Intense Longing for

> Salvation (July 12, 2008)

> sadhaka

> Saturday, July 12, 2008, 5:00 AM

>

> :Shree Hari:

>

> 12th July, 2008, Saturday

> Aashaad Shukla Navami, Vikram Samvat 2065, Shanivar

>

> A Sadhak (Spiritual Aspirant) who has a true longing for his

> spiritual betterment and salvation, will not last anywhere without

> attaining salvation. If he finds a Guru, but is unable to attain

> salvation through him, then he will not last with that Guru. If he

> becomes a sadhu (ascetic), but still does not attain salvation,

then

> there too he will not last long. If he joins an organization, there

> too he will not last. Until a hungry man, does not get food, how

> can he rest? If there is deep and intense longing for salvation,

> he will be unable to stay put anywhere. Staying put is simply not

> in his hands. He will stay rested, only where his deep spiritual

> longing is fulfilled.

>

> Out of great fortune and luck, one receives satsang (association

> with truth) - " Bade bhaag paayib satsangaa " (Manasa. Utter. 33:4).

> But in that same scripture (granth) that writes about great

fortune,

> it is also written, " Jehi ke Jehi per satya sanehu. So tehi

> milayee ne kachu sandehu. " (Manasa., Baal. 259:3). One who has a

> real and intense longing for spiritual truths, will certainly

> receive real satsang (association of good company, Truth).

>

> He who has a real longing for salvation, he will receive the

> opportunity for salvation and spiritual betterment - there is no

> doubt about it. In this matter, it is not about one's luck or

> fortune.

>

> In worldly matters such as acquisition of wealth, it is essential

to

> have three things.

> 1) Desire for wealth,

> 2) Effort to acquire the wealth and

> 3) Luck (fortune).

>

> But God Realization is possible by mere longing / desiring. This

> human body has been received for the purpose of God Realization. If

> God is not attained, than how did this human body in anyway, aid in

> achieving this aim and purpose? Thus, by giving up worldly desires,

> exclusively awaken within the inquiry into the Self (Atma) or

awaken

> within an intense longing for God Realization. In this is the

> success of human life.

>

> From " Mere Toh Giridhar Gopal, Dusero ne Koyi, " in Hindi pg 19 by

> Swami Ramsukhdasji Maharaj.

>

[Guest guest]

Jai Shri Krishna,

 

It is not necessary at all to establish Guru-Shishya (Teacher †"

Student) relationship for progressing in the spiritual journey,

instead our own intense curiosity, our own craving desire to

liberate (Kalyaan) ONLY is extremely essential. Once a sadhak

experiences such a craving desire for his Kalyaan, then he gets the

requisite material for spiritual progress through Parmaatma's

grace, through discourses of realized souls, through scriptures,

through books, through any incidence or situation, through any

atmosphere.

 

There is a special force (Shakti) which is controlling the entire

world. When man believes the existence of such Shakti, then he

diverts towards Parmaatma. Then Parmaatma Himself destroys the

ignorance of such a man (Gitaji 10:11) and Parmaatma frees such a

man from the deathly sea of the world (Gitaji 12:7).

 

From whomsoever one gets light (Prakaash), knowledge, his right

path, his duty, his aim (Dhyeya), is Guru-Tatva. That Guru-Tatva is

residing within everyone. Whosoever is instrumental in bringing out

that Guru-Tatva should be considered Guru. Actually Parmaatma is

everyone's Guru because everyone gets knowledge, light from Him only.

 

These days one should stay away from Gurus who force the Shishya to

worship the Guru, chant their name, take care of their bodies,

require them to have their leftover food and water etc. because

there is a great possibility of being cheated by them, like Sitaji

(wife of Lord Rama) from Demon Ravan disguised as a sage.

 

A renowned doctor can not treat his son or wife, but calls another

doctor. Why, because of his attachment (Moha, Mamta) to his family.

Only an outside doctor, who is not attached can treat well.

Similarly, only unattached, impartial Saints can impart knowledge.

It is very sad that today's Gurus say that you become my

Shishya (disciple) then I will give you good knowledge. Such Gurus

are actually slaves of the Shishyas (disciples).

 

Actually, one does not have to make Guru. Guru just becomes. Anyone

who knows more than us is our Guru, whether we believe it or not.

 

One does not have to search Guru. Just as when the fruit ripes, the

parrot comes on its own. Similarly, you get ready for getting

liberation, Guru will come automatically.

 

A real Guru is one who diverts people towards Parmaatma instead of

towards himself.

 

" Krishnam Vande Jagatgurum "

 

Narayana Narayana

 

Rajendra J Bohra

 

-------------------------------

, " sadhak_insight "

<sadhak_insight wrote:

>

> Hari Om

>

> With reference to the message posted on the above subject and

views

> of learned Saadhaks, I humbly submit that in this article Swamiji

> has described the momentum to which a saadhak reaches when the

true

> longing/ desire in him arises for salvation/ realisation. As

rightly

> concluded by Guru Charanji and Chitra Sriniji, here the intention

is

> to reflect that a true seeker does not stop at anything once true

> longing/desire in him awakens. There are many other continuing

> examples given in the article to reflect this intention. You are

> right that Guru/ Shishya parampara ( Spiritual Master / Disciple

> tradition) is very pious and yielded great results in the past to

> the saadhaks and disciples. But then, now, in this Kaliyuga, we

find

> rather too many Gurus directing disciples more towards themselves

> rather than towards Paramatma (God) and we notice that quite

often,

> a seeker finds himself empty handed in the end, many times even

> cheated. It is those type of Gurus which are referred in this

> Article - not real , desireless, egoless Gurus carrying

traditions

> of olden times.

>

> As regards the observation of Adrian Meyers, let me state that

even

> Swamiji on many occasions stated/written in his articles that

there

> are situations when realisation can take place without having any

> previous interest or desire for it at all. Desire is a mean, not

an

> end. Yes, there is only enlightenment, all are already divine, and

> in the end (at final stage) this desire to realise Paramatma also

> has to be relinquished by saadhak (Spiritual aspirant). You get

> Paramatma realisation ONLY when you are in a totally desire less

> mode. In fact, in the last speech of Swamiji, which was posted on

> this site during this month only (around 2nd/3rd July), there is a

> confirmation of the views of Adrian Meyers.

>

> But that does not mean that a spiritual aspirant should not desire

> for Paramatma at the beginning of his journey. It is a must.

> Nothing can replace the role of intense desire for Paramatma in

> realisation. JUST AS: When you reach door steps of a temple/

church

> etc, you relinquish/ leave your shoes, vehicle etc. outside only

> e.g. you leave the very means of reaching to temple outside, and

go

> before the Paramatma deity all alone, SIMILARLY at the final

stage

> of Paramatma Realisation you leave even the desire for realisation

> outside and go all alone - desireless! The fact that the element

> (Essence) is ever existing is undeniable and there is nothing in

the

> article which disputes this fact (rather there can never be a

denial

> of this fact in any article written by Swamiji). We ourselves

employ

> the word " REALISATION " and not " GETTING " , whenever we talk about

> salvation etc. It is a fact that the element is already received

by

> us. It is realising/ discovering/ remembering an already available

> but forgotten thing. Hence there is no contradiction of any sort

> whatsoever in the concept

>

> Here the article was not on the Paramatma Realisation, the

article

> was on the means thereof viz. intense desire, the momentum which

an

> aspirant gathers in his journey, and the role of intense desire

as

> well as Satsanga (good company). There is nothing wrong,

therefore,

> in the article or in the translation. It is accurate, not an inch

> missing the mark, leave aside million miles or light years missing

> the mark. Not an inch in fact..

>

> Therefore, I would urge, in all humbleness to fellow aspirants to

> appreciate the fact that these short messages are picked from

> Swamiji's books and are translated from Hindi to English as it is.

> Many times the messages are chosen with reference to one subtle

> principle only and the moderator stops translating further and

hence

> the totality of the article gets limited/suffers a need for

> explanation. That then is a reflection on the translator ONLY and

on

> the space constraints regarding the size of message ONLY. In

reality

> the latter reason is more operative. However, the translation of

> this article, the text , tenor, intention is absolutely

blemishless.

> Please trust me, I am not moderator or translator, I am as good a

> fellow saadhak as are all others like Adrian or Guru Charanji.

>

> With sincere respects and divine regards to all fellow Saadhaks

>

> Jai Shree Krishna

>

> Vyas N B

>

> -

-

> , " sadhak_insight "

> <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> >

> > The statement you have made here misses the mark by a million

> miles.

> > It does not in any way take into account the fact that many come

to

> > realisation without having any previous interest OR desire for

it

> at

> > all.

> >

> > There is ONLY enlightenment, all are already Divine, and the

> seeking

> > of this is the very thing that prevents the seeing of this fact.

> > There is ONLY the Divine including that idea that there is other

> > than the Divine.

> > Avasa

> > (Adrian Meyers)

> > ----------------------------

> >

> > Namaskar,

> >

> > In your article you have mentioned that a sadhak having true

> longing

> > for his spiritual betterment will not last with a Guru if he is

> > unable to attain salvation through Him.

> >

> > The above is totally in contradiction with the Guru-shishya

> > parampara which Bharat is famous for. In fact if you take the

> > history of many Saints including that of Adhishankaracharya

> > (Gyanyogi) the role play of The Guru is what leads the Disciple

> > towards ultimate liberation. It is in fact The Guru who chooses

his

> > Disciple and not the other way around.

> >

> > And once accepted by a Guru, The Disciple just obeys his Guru's

> > advice and with The Guru's grace attains Gyan, Bhakthi and

> > Vairagya. Guru's grace alone guides him in his further

spiritual

> > journey and leads him to Final liberation. (Mumukshatva)

> >

> > If a sadhak chooses to leave his Guru, it is not because of his

> > intense yearning(tulmul) for liberation,(as you have explained)

but

> > only due to his high ego, with which he will never realise his

aim

> > of self realisation. A true sadhak gets guidance from his Guru,

> even

> > if the Guru has given away his gross body(sthula deha). Because

the

> > disciple does 'adhnyapalan " of his Guru's words and becomes more

> and

> > more introverted that the Nirgun Gurutatva starts guiding him

from

> > within. Ref (Path of Guru's Grace) vol-4 of Science of

Spirituality

> > published by Santan Sanstha.

> >

> > Please write your articles very clearly, without leaving room for

> > misinterpretations. What you have really wanted to convey in

your

> > article is actually that a real seeker does not stop at anything

> > until he reaches his goal. But the message below gives

> > out a completely different meaning.

> >

> > Gratitude.

> > Gurucharni.

> > Chitra Srini

> >

> > -----------------------------

> > [sadhaka] All That is Needed is Intense Longing for

> > Salvation (July 12, 2008)

> > sadhaka

> > Saturday, July 12, 2008, 5:00 AM

> >

> > :Shree Hari:

> >

> > 12th July, 2008, Saturday

> > Aashaad Shukla Navami, Vikram Samvat 2065, Shanivar

> >

> > A Sadhak (Spiritual Aspirant) who has a true longing for his

> > spiritual betterment and salvation, will not last anywhere

without

> > attaining salvation. If he finds a Guru, but is unable to attain

> > salvation through him, then he will not last with that Guru. If

he

> > becomes a sadhu (ascetic), but still does not attain salvation,

> then

> > there too he will not last long. If he joins an organization,

there

> > too he will not last. Until a hungry man, does not get food, how

> > can he rest? If there is deep and intense longing for salvation,

> > he will be unable to stay put anywhere. Staying put is simply not

> > in his hands. He will stay rested, only where his deep spiritual

> > longing is fulfilled.

> >

> > Out of great fortune and luck, one receives satsang (association

> > with truth) - " Bade bhaag paayib satsangaa " (Manasa. Utter.

33:4).

> > But in that same scripture (granth) that writes about great

> fortune,

> > it is also written, " Jehi ke Jehi per satya sanehu. So tehi

> > milayee ne kachu sandehu. " (Manasa., Baal. 259:3). One who has a

> > real and intense longing for spiritual truths, will certainly

> > receive real satsang (association of good company, Truth).

> >

> > He who has a real longing for salvation, he will receive the

> > opportunity for salvation and spiritual betterment - there is no

> > doubt about it. In this matter, it is not about one's luck or

> > fortune.

> >

> > In worldly matters such as acquisition of wealth, it is

essential

> to

> > have three things.

> > 1) Desire for wealth,

> > 2) Effort to acquire the wealth and

> > 3) Luck (fortune).

> >

> > But God Realization is possible by mere longing / desiring. This

> > human body has been received for the purpose of God Realization.

If

> > God is not attained, than how did this human body in anyway, aid

in

> > achieving this aim and purpose? Thus, by giving up worldly

desires,

> > exclusively awaken within the inquiry into the Self (Atma) or

> awaken

> > within an intense longing for God Realization. In this is the

> > success of human life.

> >

> > From " Mere Toh Giridhar Gopal, Dusero ne Koyi, " in Hindi pg 19 by

> > Swami Ramsukhdasji Maharaj.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

-Shri Hari-

 

Rajendra J Bohra's down to earth no nonsense comment is one that I

wholly agree with.

 

Regarding Shakti that permeates existence, it is a force that is

experienced, one does not need to believe in it, she can introduce

herself, if the door to your soul is open. The burning desire for

the truth is a key it seems. ( I will put in a question that was asked, " Why so

much pain " ), I am not sure but Gitaji 12:5 may explain, I read two translations.

 

People of the West as a rule, do not have the knowledge that is

known in India, most people have never heard of the Bhagavad Gita, and because

of centuries of suppression of these matters they can fall into pitfalls. But

help is always at hand, Paramatma is true to all.

 

There is a term that is finding popular usage, 'Tipping Point', it is

at that spiritual tipping point that the seeker steps forward relying

on Divine support, and it is their acknowledging and understand that

this IS sacred that will save them from harm. It is at this point

that Gitaji 12:7 makes sense to me.

Yes from then on Gurus appear, not necessarily one , circumstances

can be confusing often bewildering. Some people say they do not believe in

coincidence, certainly too many things to be coincidence. The Divine hand is

clearly at work.

 

With Respect and Divine Love,

 

Mike

(Mike Keenor)

 

 

 

Loving Divine,

Pranam.

Thanks to all for the beautiful satsang, enjoyed it all. Whatever I

am going to say is just a little addition to it. The fact is, most

of us are very weak in our determination to attain Godhood because

of the difficulties faced in detaching ourselves from the world.

Also, we are very forgetful that all is God - vasudeva sarvam

(including myself and others) & that is our biggest mistake/sin. So

I believe that it is also ok to have a human being as our Guru who

can constantly remind us of who we are, how can we remain in touch

with The Truth, some do's and don'ts, strengthen our will, motivate

us, until we reach that oneness. Guru-Shishya paramparaa is very

sacred, those who have experienced it need no further explanation.

I am very grateful to my Guru for everything. As stated already

Guru-tatva (essence) is the same regardless from whom we learn, as

long as we are conscious of learning from other sources, & yes,

ultimately, it all comes from the same, one & only source -

God/Bhrahman/Paramaatmaa!

 

I don't remember an exact story that I heard from Baba, so if

someone knows it please elaborate, it is about Guru-Shishya. Either

Shri Ashtavakra in Guru's role asked King Janak or King Janak in the

role of Guru asked Shri Vyasji's son, first to give gurudakshina

(offerings given by disciple to guru at the end of his/her study)

before even the spiritual study began. The shishya was surprised

and asked why gurudakshina first? Guru said that once the so called

shishya attains self-realization, who is guru and who is shishya?

From whom to collect gurudakshina? Guru and shishya become one &

the same! So the point is, until we are not in touch with who we

really are all is valid, but the minute we are self-realized, all

separateness/differences dissolve!

 

Shri Vyasji beautifully describes this point in BG Chapter 10 using

actually Shri Krishna as his voice. Shri Krishna, [a human being,

whom Arjun has accepted as his guru (BG 2:7), helps resolve Arjun's

doubts (BG 18:73) in his spiritual journey], is addressed as Bhagwan

(BG 2:2), Mahaan - great soul (BG 18:74), Yogeshwar - great yogi (BG

18:75/78) due to His attainment in spirituality. Shri Vyasji, a

human being, is also addressed as Bhagwan, a great soul, due to his

attainment in spirituality as well (BG 18:75). In BG 10:37, Vyasji

using Krishna's voice indicates that there is no difference between

him & Shri Krishna and there is no difference between Shri Krishna &

Arjun (still an ignorant). Chapter 10 really helps expand our

horizon, brings us out of our limited mentality and frees us to be

really how vast we are being children of God! But, like Arjun, we

need to continue with our efforts, study scriptures, take help of

guru/guide, do selfless act, follow all do's and don'ts, cultivate

love, etc.; even though nothing is needed all is needed, until we

truly understand who we are! Just prior to a moment of realization,

all carry some value but as soon as it dawns (like when a switch is

tuned on, darkness disappears immediately), all are dropped

immediately, scriptures carry no meaning (BG 2:46), nothing remains

to be done by I (selfless karma), the so difficult world just gets

dropped (equanimity, peace), other than God nothing exist (true

surrender), nothing remains to be said (Krishna-Arjun dialog ends).

But until that aatma-gyaan is attained, one doesn't stop like

Arjun!

 

Even though we know we are all divine, children of the very same

God, we forget and in this forgetfulness we continue to commit many

mistakes. Baba says mistakes are not for mistakes, they are for

correction. So let's correct the very basic mistake by remembering

God in our daily activities, let's be conscious of who is performing

these activities hiding within our body & then let God lead us the

way He wants us to lead.

 

humble regards,

always at Thy Holy Feet

 

Manjula Patel

 

 

 

In life, is it essential to have a Guru or not ? Please provide a

clear answer that is based on the scriptures (mainly Gita). What

has Gita written about need for Guru and Guru Parampara ?

 

JINDAJI MAI GURU BANANA JARURI HAI YA NAAHI? ...SPASHT JAWAAB DIJIYE

GITA SE. GITA NE GURU BANANE KI JARURIYAAT AUR GURU PARAMAPARAA KE

BAARE MEIN KYAA LIKHAA HAI

 

vyas.ramchandra

--------------------------------

, " sadhak_insight "

<sadhak_insight wrote:

>

> Jai Shri Krishna,

>

> It is not necessary at all to establish Guru-Shishya (Teacher †"

> Student) relationship for progressing in the spiritual journey,

> instead our own intense curiosity, our own craving desire to

> liberate (Kalyaan) ONLY is extremely essential. Once a sadhak

> experiences such a craving desire for his Kalyaan, then he gets

the

> requisite material for spiritual progress through Parmaatma's

> grace, through discourses of realized souls, through scriptures,

> through books, through any incidence or situation, through any

> atmosphere.

>

> There is a special force (Shakti) which is controlling the entire

> world. When man believes the existence of such Shakti, then he

> diverts towards Parmaatma. Then Parmaatma Himself destroys the

> ignorance of such a man (Gitaji 10:11) and Parmaatma frees such a

> man from the deathly sea of the world (Gitaji 12:7).

>

> From whomsoever one gets light (Prakaash), knowledge, his right

> path, his duty, his aim (Dhyeya), is Guru-Tatva. That Guru-Tatva

is

> residing within everyone. Whosoever is instrumental in bringing

out

> that Guru-Tatva should be considered Guru. Actually Parmaatma is

> everyone's Guru because everyone gets knowledge, light from Him

only.

>

> These days one should stay away from Gurus who force the Shishya

to

> worship the Guru, chant their name, take care of their bodies,

> require them to have their leftover food and water etc. because

> there is a great possibility of being cheated by them, like Sitaji

> (wife of Lord Rama) from Demon Ravan disguised as a sage.

>

> A renowned doctor can not treat his son or wife, but calls another

> doctor. Why, because of his attachment (Moha, Mamta) to his

family.

> Only an outside doctor, who is not attached can treat well.

> Similarly, only unattached, impartial Saints can impart knowledge.

> It is very sad that today's Gurus say that you become my

> Shishya (disciple) then I will give you good knowledge. Such Gurus

> are actually slaves of the Shishyas (disciples).

>

> Actually, one does not have to make Guru. Guru just becomes.

Anyone

> who knows more than us is our Guru, whether we believe it or not.

>

> One does not have to search Guru. Just as when the fruit ripes,

the

> parrot comes on its own. Similarly, you get ready for getting

> liberation, Guru will come automatically.

>

> A real Guru is one who diverts people towards Parmaatma instead of

> towards himself.

>

> " Krishnam Vande Jagatgurum "

>

> Narayana Narayana

>

> Rajendra J Bohra

>

> -------------------------------

> , " sadhak_insight "

> <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> >

> > Hari Om

> >

> > With reference to the message posted on the above subject and

> views

> > of learned Saadhaks, I humbly submit that in this article

Swamiji

> > has described the momentum to which a saadhak reaches when the

> true

> > longing/ desire in him arises for salvation/ realisation. As

> rightly

> > concluded by Guru Charanji and Chitra Sriniji, here the

intention

> is

> > to reflect that a true seeker does not stop at anything once

true

> > longing/desire in him awakens. There are many other continuing

> > examples given in the article to reflect this intention. You are

> > right that Guru/ Shishya parampara ( Spiritual Master /

Disciple

> > tradition) is very pious and yielded great results in the past

to

> > the saadhaks and disciples. But then, now, in this Kaliyuga, we

> find

> > rather too many Gurus directing disciples more towards

themselves

> > rather than towards Paramatma (God) and we notice that quite

> often,

> > a seeker finds himself empty handed in the end, many times even

> > cheated. It is those type of Gurus which are referred in this

> > Article - not real , desireless, egoless Gurus carrying

> traditions

> > of olden times.

> >

> > As regards the observation of Adrian Meyers, let me state that

> even

> > Swamiji on many occasions stated/written in his articles that

> there

> > are situations when realisation can take place without having

any

> > previous interest or desire for it at all. Desire is a mean, not

> an

> > end. Yes, there is only enlightenment, all are already divine,

and

> > in the end (at final stage) this desire to realise Paramatma

also

> > has to be relinquished by saadhak (Spiritual aspirant). You get

> > Paramatma realisation ONLY when you are in a totally desire less

> > mode. In fact, in the last speech of Swamiji, which was posted

on

> > this site during this month only (around 2nd/3rd July), there is

a

> > confirmation of the views of Adrian Meyers.

> >

> > But that does not mean that a spiritual aspirant should not

desire

> > for Paramatma at the beginning of his journey. It is a must.

> > Nothing can replace the role of intense desire for Paramatma in

> > realisation. JUST AS: When you reach door steps of a temple/

> church

> > etc, you relinquish/ leave your shoes, vehicle etc. outside

only

> > e.g. you leave the very means of reaching to temple outside, and

> go

> > before the Paramatma deity all alone, SIMILARLY at the final

> stage

> > of Paramatma Realisation you leave even the desire for

realisation

> > outside and go all alone - desireless! The fact that the element

> > (Essence) is ever existing is undeniable and there is nothing in

> the

> > article which disputes this fact (rather there can never be a

> denial

> > of this fact in any article written by Swamiji). We ourselves

> employ

> > the word " REALISATION " and not " GETTING " , whenever we talk about

> > salvation etc. It is a fact that the element is already received

> by

> > us. It is realising/ discovering/ remembering an already

available

> > but forgotten thing. Hence there is no contradiction of any

sort

> > whatsoever in the concept

> >

> > Here the article was not on the Paramatma Realisation, the

> article

> > was on the means thereof viz. intense desire, the momentum

which

> an

> > aspirant gathers in his journey, and the role of intense desire

> as

> > well as Satsanga (good company). There is nothing wrong,

> therefore,

> > in the article or in the translation. It is accurate, not an

inch

> > missing the mark, leave aside million miles or light years

missing

> > the mark. Not an inch in fact..

> >

> > Therefore, I would urge, in all humbleness to fellow aspirants

to

> > appreciate the fact that these short messages are picked from

> > Swamiji's books and are translated from Hindi to English as it

is.

> > Many times the messages are chosen with reference to one subtle

> > principle only and the moderator stops translating further and

> hence

> > the totality of the article gets limited/suffers a need for

> > explanation. That then is a reflection on the translator ONLY

and

> on

> > the space constraints regarding the size of message ONLY. In

> reality

> > the latter reason is more operative. However, the translation of

> > this article, the text , tenor, intention is absolutely

> blemishless.

> > Please trust me, I am not moderator or translator, I am as good

a

> > fellow saadhak as are all others like Adrian or Guru Charanji.

> >

> > With sincere respects and divine regards to all fellow Saadhaks

> >

> > Jai Shree Krishna

> >

> > Vyas N B

> >

> > --------------------------------

--

> -

> > , " sadhak_insight "

> > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > >

> > > The statement you have made here misses the mark by a million

> > miles.

> > > It does not in any way take into account the fact that many

come

> to

> > > realisation without having any previous interest OR desire for

> it

> > at

> > > all.

> > >

> > > There is ONLY enlightenment, all are already Divine, and the

> > seeking

> > > of this is the very thing that prevents the seeing of this

fact.

> > > There is ONLY the Divine including that idea that there is

other

> > > than the Divine.

> > > Avasa

> > > (Adrian Meyers)

> > > ----------------------------

> > >

> > > Namaskar,

> > >

> > > In your article you have mentioned that a sadhak having true

> > longing

> > > for his spiritual betterment will not last with a Guru if he is

> > > unable to attain salvation through Him.

> > >

> > > The above is totally in contradiction with the Guru-shishya

> > > parampara which Bharat is famous for. In fact if you take the

> > > history of many Saints including that of Adhishankaracharya

> > > (Gyanyogi) the role play of The Guru is what leads the Disciple

> > > towards ultimate liberation. It is in fact The Guru who

chooses

> his

> > > Disciple and not the other way around.

> > >

> > > And once accepted by a Guru, The Disciple just obeys his Guru's

> > > advice and with The Guru's grace attains Gyan, Bhakthi and

> > > Vairagya. Guru's grace alone guides him in his further

> spiritual

> > > journey and leads him to Final liberation. (Mumukshatva)

> > >

> > > If a sadhak chooses to leave his Guru, it is not because of his

> > > intense yearning(tulmul) for liberation,(as you have

explained)

> but

> > > only due to his high ego, with which he will never realise his

> aim

> > > of self realisation. A true sadhak gets guidance from his

Guru,

> > even

> > > if the Guru has given away his gross body(sthula deha).

Because

> the

> > > disciple does 'adhnyapalan " of his Guru's words and becomes

more

> > and

> > > more introverted that the Nirgun Gurutatva starts guiding him

> from

> > > within. Ref (Path of Guru's Grace) vol-4 of Science of

> Spirituality

> > > published by Santan Sanstha.

> > >

> > > Please write your articles very clearly, without leaving room

for

> > > misinterpretations. What you have really wanted to convey in

> your

> > > article is actually that a real seeker does not stop at

anything

> > > until he reaches his goal. But the message below gives

> > > out a completely different meaning.

> > >

> > > Gratitude.

> > > Gurucharni.

> > > Chitra Srini

> > >

> > > -----------------------------

> > > [sadhaka] All That is Needed is Intense Longing for

> > > Salvation (July 12, 2008)

> > > sadhaka

> > > Saturday, July 12, 2008, 5:00 AM

> > >

> > > :Shree Hari:

> > >

> > > 12th July, 2008, Saturday

> > > Aashaad Shukla Navami, Vikram Samvat 2065, Shanivar

> > >

> > > A Sadhak (Spiritual Aspirant) who has a true longing for his

> > > spiritual betterment and salvation, will not last anywhere

> without

> > > attaining salvation. If he finds a Guru, but is unable to

attain

> > > salvation through him, then he will not last with that Guru.

If

> he

> > > becomes a sadhu (ascetic), but still does not attain

salvation,

> > then

> > > there too he will not last long. If he joins an organization,

> there

> > > too he will not last. Until a hungry man, does not get food,

how

> > > can he rest? If there is deep and intense longing for

salvation,

> > > he will be unable to stay put anywhere. Staying put is simply

not

> > > in his hands. He will stay rested, only where his deep

spiritual

> > > longing is fulfilled.

> > >

> > > Out of great fortune and luck, one receives satsang

(association

> > > with truth) - " Bade bhaag paayib satsangaa " (Manasa. Utter.

> 33:4).

> > > But in that same scripture (granth) that writes about great

> > fortune,

> > > it is also written, " Jehi ke Jehi per satya sanehu. So tehi

> > > milayee ne kachu sandehu. " (Manasa., Baal. 259:3). One who has

a

> > > real and intense longing for spiritual truths, will certainly

> > > receive real satsang (association of good company, Truth).

> > >

> > > He who has a real longing for salvation, he will receive the

> > > opportunity for salvation and spiritual betterment - there is

no

> > > doubt about it. In this matter, it is not about one's luck or

> > > fortune.

> > >

> > > In worldly matters such as acquisition of wealth, it is

> essential

> > to

> > > have three things.

> > > 1) Desire for wealth,

> > > 2) Effort to acquire the wealth and

> > > 3) Luck (fortune).

> > >

> > > But God Realization is possible by mere longing / desiring.

This

> > > human body has been received for the purpose of God

Realization.

> If

> > > God is not attained, than how did this human body in anyway,

aid

> in

> > > achieving this aim and purpose? Thus, by giving up worldly

> desires,

> > > exclusively awaken within the inquiry into the Self (Atma) or

> > awaken

> > > within an intense longing for God Realization. In this is the

> > > success of human life.

> > >

> > > From " Mere Toh Giridhar Gopal, Dusero ne Koyi, " in Hindi pg 19

by

> > > Swami Ramsukhdasji Maharaj.

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hari Om

 

A Saadhak has asked question – " Is it essential to have Guru or

not? " . He has sought Gita views on the subject.

 

If one reads carefully Gita (say 6:5, 6:6) , it is abundantly clear

that it is not the principle d by Gita that one should

become Guru or disciple. It is very clear.

 

Gita 6:5 reads as under:-

 

" Let a man emancipate himself by his own self; and not degrade

himself; for he himself is his friend, as well as, his enemy.

 

Gita 6:6 reads as under:-

 

" To him, who has conquered his self by himself, his own self is a

friend : but to him who has not conquered the self, his own self

acts as his foe. "

 

Initiation (initiating or being initiated) is not the principle of

the Gita. A man is his own preceptor, therefore he has to know,

learn, and imbibe in the teachings the gospel by his own self. When

all is Paramatma (VASUDEVAH SARVAM), then who except Paramatma is a

preceptor ! (KRISHNAM VANDE JAGADGURUM - Krishna is Guru of entire

world). Who will reveal the gospel and to whom will he reveal it?

 

Therefore, instead of perceiving defects in others, a man should

perceive defects in his own self and try to get rid of them and

teach the gospel to himself. He himself should become his own

preceptor, he himself should become his leader and he himself should

become his own ruler!

 

Every human being has been given " CONSCIENCE " (Viveka) along with

this human body. That conscience is our Guru. It never changes. It

never tells us something that is inappropriate. It never agrees to

our wrong doings - NEVER! It is our direct experience. Who then can

be a better Guru than our own conscience, residing right within us?

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

-

 

Namaste....

 

My respects to all in this sanga....I am writing in respect to the question by

Vyasa. Ramchandra...he asked what the Bhagavad Gita says in regard to the need

for a guru. I am guided by my diksha guru, and by my siksha guru, to speak in

answer to this question. It is truly nothing short of thievery if a disciple

presents what he has been given from his guru, and fails to acknowledge his

indebtedness toward the one who has given the knowledge.

 

In the fourth chapter of the Gita, Transcendental Knowledge, chapter 34, it is

said, " tad viddhi pranipatena, pariprasnene sevaya, upadeksyanti te jnanam,

jnaninas tattva-darsinah " " Just try to learn the truth by approaching a

spiritual master. Inquire from him submissively and render service unto him.

The self-realized soul can impart knowledge unto you because he has seen the

truth. "

 

Another pertinent quote is in the glorious Srimad Bhagavatam....chapter eleven,

canto three, verse 21. " tasmad gurum prapadyeta, jijnasuh sreya uttamam, sabde

pare ca nisnatam, brahmany upasamasrayam " Therefore, any person who seriously

desires real happiness must seek a bon fide spiritual master and take shelter of

him thru initiation. The qualification of a bona fide spiritual master is that

he has realized the conclusions of the scriptures

by deliberation and is able to convince others of these conclusions. Such great

personalities, who have taken shelter of the Supreme Godhead, leaving aside all

material considerations, should be understood to be bona fide spiritual

masters " .

 

There are so many individuals who may say that guru is not necessary, but the

words of the Gita and the Bhagavatam are from the Lord directly. Sri Krsna says

that a guru IS necessary. While I agree that it is true, Guru is everywhere,

until an individual comes to the realized platform, of seeing the presence of

God in everything, at every moment, a diksha guru is necessary to begin the

students progress, and to guide him to enter into bhajan of the Lord.

 

If someone is saying that initiation and guru is not important, perhaps that is

true for him/her, but it is cheating to say that this is the case for

everyone....we are not all on the same level. So, such an individual, who is

unaware of the needs of others, he himself must also be in need of some

instruction? A beginner on the path must be guided....and ultimately, as each

new level of awareness dawns on the student, the beauty of a truly genuine

student is that he/she always feels oneself to be a beginner, though

simultaneously that person knows within of his achievements. It is said of an

uttama (topmost) adhikari, that he has to come

down to the level of a madhyama (intermediate) adhikari in order to

preach.....as the uttama is seeing all souls acting perfectly, and serving the

Lord better than himself, due to his overwhelming and genuine humility. In such

a state, there is no need, no ability to preach to others. It is this

personality that we must seek out, one who is seeing within their heart the

loving pastimes of the Divine couple, Sri Sri Radha and Krsna. Not everyone

may want to worship that particular aspect of the divine, that is individual

rasa, but the true guru understands this individuality, and doesn't force

anything foreign on a disciple, as is the case with Anupama in the Caitanya

Caritamrtra.....he had sold his head at the feet of Lord Ramachandra, and could

not give his full-hearted devotion to Lord Caitanya. Lord Caitanya glorified

him for his love and blessed him.

 

respectfully yours,

Mahalaksmi Dasi

 

-

 

How can someone be directed towards the Divine when all that exists

is the Divine?

Where one is being directed FROM and directed TO is the same, it is

the Divine only.

 

Seeking is an impersonal action, it does not come from an individual,

it is the play of the Divine itself to lose sight of itself and this

then gives rise to the action of seeking. Seeking is an action

arising from No-thing, there is no seeker. The seeker is the very

illusion that is dispelled when all is seen to be the Divine only.

Action arises as thinking and as sensation from No-thing, there is no

thinker, no individual producing the feeings that appear. There is no

individual. The concept that one is an individual continues as long

as the seeking action arises, when it no longer arises it ceases NOT

because of an apparent individuals action but because the Divine

simply no longer gives rise to the seeking action through that

particular form. Nothing that the apparent individual does can bring

an end to the illusion of there being an individual. The action of

seeking and the ceasation of it are grace.

 

With Love avasa

 

" Adrian Meyers "

 

--

 

I read an essay on guru-Sishya, an elaboration of a couplet from

taittireeya upanishad, which goes like

 

AcAryah poorva roopam, antEvAsyuttara roopam

vidyA sandhih, pravacanam sandhAnam

 

The author in elaborating this concept says that everything around

us, whether a living being or otherwise, has the capacity of

becoming a guru; that when one is ready to receive knowledge,

everything around him becomes a Guru.

 

Ramakrishna

(Krishna Pillalamarri)

 

 

, " sadhak_insight "

<sadhak_insight wrote:

>

> -Shri Hari-

>

> Rajendra J Bohra's down to earth no nonsense comment is one that I

> wholly agree with.

>

> Regarding Shakti that permeates existence, it is a force that is

> experienced, one does not need to believe in it, she can introduce

> herself, if the door to your soul is open. The burning desire for

> the truth is a key it seems. ( I will put in a question that was

asked, " Why so much pain " ), I am not sure but Gitaji 12:5 may

explain, I read two translations.

>

> People of the West as a rule, do not have the knowledge that is

> known in India, most people have never heard of the Bhagavad Gita,

and because of centuries of suppression of these matters they can

fall into pitfalls. But help is always at hand, Paramatma is true to

all.

>

> There is a term that is finding popular usage, 'Tipping Point', it

is

> at that spiritual tipping point that the seeker steps forward

relying

> on Divine support, and it is their acknowledging and understand

that

> this IS sacred that will save them from harm. It is at this point

> that Gitaji 12:7 makes sense to me.

> Yes from then on Gurus appear, not necessarily one , circumstances

> can be confusing often bewildering. Some people say they do not

believe in coincidence, certainly too many things to be coincidence.

The Divine hand is clearly at work.

>

> With Respect and Divine Love,

>

> Mike

> (Mike Keenor)

>

>

>

> Loving Divine,

> Pranam.

> Thanks to all for the beautiful satsang, enjoyed it all. Whatever

I

> am going to say is just a little addition to it. The fact is, most

> of us are very weak in our determination to attain Godhood because

> of the difficulties faced in detaching ourselves from the world.

> Also, we are very forgetful that all is God - vasudeva sarvam

> (including myself and others) & that is our biggest mistake/sin.

So

> I believe that it is also ok to have a human being as our Guru who

> can constantly remind us of who we are, how can we remain in touch

> with The Truth, some do's and don'ts, strengthen our will, motivate

> us, until we reach that oneness. Guru-Shishya paramparaa is very

> sacred, those who have experienced it need no further explanation.

> I am very grateful to my Guru for everything. As stated already

> Guru-tatva (essence) is the same regardless from whom we learn, as

> long as we are conscious of learning from other sources, & yes,

> ultimately, it all comes from the same, one & only source -

> God/Bhrahman/Paramaatmaa!

>

> I don't remember an exact story that I heard from Baba, so if

> someone knows it please elaborate, it is about Guru-Shishya.

Either

> Shri Ashtavakra in Guru's role asked King Janak or King Janak in

the

> role of Guru asked Shri Vyasji's son, first to give gurudakshina

> (offerings given by disciple to guru at the end of his/her study)

> before even the spiritual study began. The shishya was surprised

> and asked why gurudakshina first? Guru said that once the so

called

> shishya attains self-realization, who is guru and who is shishya?

> From whom to collect gurudakshina? Guru and shishya become one &

> the same! So the point is, until we are not in touch with who we

> really are all is valid, but the minute we are self-realized, all

> separateness/differences dissolve!

>

> Shri Vyasji beautifully describes this point in BG Chapter 10 using

> actually Shri Krishna as his voice. Shri Krishna, [a human being,

> whom Arjun has accepted as his guru (BG 2:7), helps resolve Arjun's

> doubts (BG 18:73) in his spiritual journey], is addressed as

Bhagwan

> (BG 2:2), Mahaan - great soul (BG 18:74), Yogeshwar - great yogi

(BG

> 18:75/78) due to His attainment in spirituality. Shri Vyasji, a

> human being, is also addressed as Bhagwan, a great soul, due to his

> attainment in spirituality as well (BG 18:75). In BG 10:37, Vyasji

> using Krishna's voice indicates that there is no difference between

> him & Shri Krishna and there is no difference between Shri Krishna

&

> Arjun (still an ignorant). Chapter 10 really helps expand our

> horizon, brings us out of our limited mentality and frees us to be

> really how vast we are being children of God! But, like Arjun, we

> need to continue with our efforts, study scriptures, take help of

> guru/guide, do selfless act, follow all do's and don'ts, cultivate

> love, etc.; even though nothing is needed all is needed, until we

> truly understand who we are! Just prior to a moment of

realization,

> all carry some value but as soon as it dawns (like when a switch is

> tuned on, darkness disappears immediately), all are dropped

> immediately, scriptures carry no meaning (BG 2:46), nothing remains

> to be done by I (selfless karma), the so difficult world just gets

> dropped (equanimity, peace), other than God nothing exist (true

> surrender), nothing remains to be said (Krishna-Arjun dialog ends).

> But until that aatma-gyaan is attained, one doesn't stop like

> Arjun!

>

> Even though we know we are all divine, children of the very same

> God, we forget and in this forgetfulness we continue to commit many

> mistakes. Baba says mistakes are not for mistakes, they are for

> correction. So let's correct the very basic mistake by remembering

> God in our daily activities, let's be conscious of who is

performing

> these activities hiding within our body & then let God lead us the

> way He wants us to lead.

>

> humble regards,

> always at Thy Holy Feet

>

> Manjula Patel

>

>

>

> In life, is it essential to have a Guru or not ? Please provide a

> clear answer that is based on the scriptures (mainly Gita). What

> has Gita written about need for Guru and Guru Parampara ?

>

> JINDAJI MAI GURU BANANA JARURI HAI YA NAAHI? ...SPASHT JAWAAB

DIJIYE

> GITA SE. GITA NE GURU BANANE KI JARURIYAAT AUR GURU PARAMAPARAA KE

> BAARE MEIN KYAA LIKHAA HAI

>

> vyas.ramchandra

> --------------------------------

> , " sadhak_insight "

> <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> >

> > Jai Shri Krishna,

> >

> > It is not necessary at all to establish Guru-Shishya (Teacher †"

> > Student) relationship for progressing in the spiritual journey,

> > instead our own intense curiosity, our own craving desire to

> > liberate (Kalyaan) ONLY is extremely essential. Once a sadhak

> > experiences such a craving desire for his Kalyaan, then he gets

> the

> > requisite material for spiritual progress through Parmaatma's

> > grace, through discourses of realized souls, through scriptures,

> > through books, through any incidence or situation, through any

> > atmosphere.

> >

> > There is a special force (Shakti) which is controlling the entire

> > world. When man believes the existence of such Shakti, then he

> > diverts towards Parmaatma. Then Parmaatma Himself destroys the

> > ignorance of such a man (Gitaji 10:11) and Parmaatma frees such a

> > man from the deathly sea of the world (Gitaji 12:7).

> >

> > From whomsoever one gets light (Prakaash), knowledge, his right

> > path, his duty, his aim (Dhyeya), is Guru-Tatva. That Guru-Tatva

> is

> > residing within everyone. Whosoever is instrumental in bringing

> out

> > that Guru-Tatva should be considered Guru. Actually Parmaatma is

> > everyone's Guru because everyone gets knowledge, light from Him

> only.

> >

> > These days one should stay away from Gurus who force the Shishya

> to

> > worship the Guru, chant their name, take care of their bodies,

> > require them to have their leftover food and water etc. because

> > there is a great possibility of being cheated by them, like

Sitaji

> > (wife of Lord Rama) from Demon Ravan disguised as a sage.

> >

> > A renowned doctor can not treat his son or wife, but calls

another

> > doctor. Why, because of his attachment (Moha, Mamta) to his

> family.

> > Only an outside doctor, who is not attached can treat well.

> > Similarly, only unattached, impartial Saints can impart

knowledge.

> > It is very sad that today's Gurus say that you become my

> > Shishya (disciple) then I will give you good knowledge. Such

Gurus

> > are actually slaves of the Shishyas (disciples).

> >

> > Actually, one does not have to make Guru. Guru just becomes.

> Anyone

> > who knows more than us is our Guru, whether we believe it or not.

> >

> > One does not have to search Guru. Just as when the fruit ripes,

> the

> > parrot comes on its own. Similarly, you get ready for getting

> > liberation, Guru will come automatically.

> >

> > A real Guru is one who diverts people towards Parmaatma instead

of

> > towards himself.

> >

> > " Krishnam Vande Jagatgurum "

> >

> > Narayana Narayana

> >

> > Rajendra J Bohra

> >

> > -------------------------------

> > , " sadhak_insight "

> > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Hari Om

> > >

> > > With reference to the message posted on the above subject and

> > views

> > > of learned Saadhaks, I humbly submit that in this article

> Swamiji

> > > has described the momentum to which a saadhak reaches when the

> > true

> > > longing/ desire in him arises for salvation/ realisation. As

> > rightly

> > > concluded by Guru Charanji and Chitra Sriniji, here the

> intention

> > is

> > > to reflect that a true seeker does not stop at anything once

> true

> > > longing/desire in him awakens. There are many other continuing

> > > examples given in the article to reflect this intention. You

are

> > > right that Guru/ Shishya parampara ( Spiritual Master /

> Disciple

> > > tradition) is very pious and yielded great results in the past

> to

> > > the saadhaks and disciples. But then, now, in this Kaliyuga, we

> > find

> > > rather too many Gurus directing disciples more towards

> themselves

> > > rather than towards Paramatma (God) and we notice that quite

> > often,

> > > a seeker finds himself empty handed in the end, many times

even

> > > cheated. It is those type of Gurus which are referred in this

> > > Article - not real , desireless, egoless Gurus carrying

> > traditions

> > > of olden times.

> > >

> > > As regards the observation of Adrian Meyers, let me state that

> > even

> > > Swamiji on many occasions stated/written in his articles that

> > there

> > > are situations when realisation can take place without having

> any

> > > previous interest or desire for it at all. Desire is a mean,

not

> > an

> > > end. Yes, there is only enlightenment, all are already divine,

> and

> > > in the end (at final stage) this desire to realise Paramatma

> also

> > > has to be relinquished by saadhak (Spiritual aspirant). You get

> > > Paramatma realisation ONLY when you are in a totally desire

less

> > > mode. In fact, in the last speech of Swamiji, which was posted

> on

> > > this site during this month only (around 2nd/3rd July), there

is

> a

> > > confirmation of the views of Adrian Meyers.

> > >

> > > But that does not mean that a spiritual aspirant should not

> desire

> > > for Paramatma at the beginning of his journey. It is a must.

> > > Nothing can replace the role of intense desire for Paramatma in

> > > realisation. JUST AS: When you reach door steps of a temple/

> > church

> > > etc, you relinquish/ leave your shoes, vehicle etc. outside

> only

> > > e.g. you leave the very means of reaching to temple outside,

and

> > go

> > > before the Paramatma deity all alone, SIMILARLY at the final

> > stage

> > > of Paramatma Realisation you leave even the desire for

> realisation

> > > outside and go all alone - desireless! The fact that the

element

> > > (Essence) is ever existing is undeniable and there is nothing

in

> > the

> > > article which disputes this fact (rather there can never be a

> > denial

> > > of this fact in any article written by Swamiji). We ourselves

> > employ

> > > the word " REALISATION " and not " GETTING " , whenever we talk

about

> > > salvation etc. It is a fact that the element is already

received

> > by

> > > us. It is realising/ discovering/ remembering an already

> available

> > > but forgotten thing. Hence there is no contradiction of any

> sort

> > > whatsoever in the concept

> > >

> > > Here the article was not on the Paramatma Realisation, the

> > article

> > > was on the means thereof viz. intense desire, the momentum

> which

> > an

> > > aspirant gathers in his journey, and the role of intense

desire

> > as

> > > well as Satsanga (good company). There is nothing wrong,

> > therefore,

> > > in the article or in the translation. It is accurate, not an

> inch

> > > missing the mark, leave aside million miles or light years

> missing

> > > the mark. Not an inch in fact..

> > >

> > > Therefore, I would urge, in all humbleness to fellow aspirants

> to

> > > appreciate the fact that these short messages are picked from

> > > Swamiji's books and are translated from Hindi to English as it

> is.

> > > Many times the messages are chosen with reference to one subtle

> > > principle only and the moderator stops translating further and

> > hence

> > > the totality of the article gets limited/suffers a need for

> > > explanation. That then is a reflection on the translator ONLY

> and

> > on

> > > the space constraints regarding the size of message ONLY. In

> > reality

> > > the latter reason is more operative. However, the translation

of

> > > this article, the text , tenor, intention is absolutely

> > blemishless.

> > > Please trust me, I am not moderator or translator, I am as good

> a

> > > fellow saadhak as are all others like Adrian or Guru Charanji.

> > >

> > > With sincere respects and divine regards to all fellow Saadhaks

> > >

> > > Jai Shree Krishna

> > >

> > > Vyas N B

> > >

> > > ------------------------------

--

> --

> > -

> > > , " sadhak_insight "

> > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > The statement you have made here misses the mark by a million

> > > miles.

> > > > It does not in any way take into account the fact that many

> come

> > to

> > > > realisation without having any previous interest OR desire

for

> > it

> > > at

> > > > all.

> > > >

> > > > There is ONLY enlightenment, all are already Divine, and the

> > > seeking

> > > > of this is the very thing that prevents the seeing of this

> fact.

> > > > There is ONLY the Divine including that idea that there is

> other

> > > > than the Divine.

> > > > Avasa

> > > > (Adrian Meyers)

> > > > ----------------------------

> > > >

> > > > Namaskar,

> > > >

> > > > In your article you have mentioned that a sadhak having true

> > > longing

> > > > for his spiritual betterment will not last with a Guru if he

is

> > > > unable to attain salvation through Him.

> > > >

> > > > The above is totally in contradiction with the Guru-shishya

> > > > parampara which Bharat is famous for. In fact if you take

the

> > > > history of many Saints including that of Adhishankaracharya

> > > > (Gyanyogi) the role play of The Guru is what leads the

Disciple

> > > > towards ultimate liberation. It is in fact The Guru who

> chooses

> > his

> > > > Disciple and not the other way around.

> > > >

> > > > And once accepted by a Guru, The Disciple just obeys his

Guru's

> > > > advice and with The Guru's grace attains Gyan, Bhakthi and

> > > > Vairagya. Guru's grace alone guides him in his further

> > spiritual

> > > > journey and leads him to Final liberation. (Mumukshatva)

> > > >

> > > > If a sadhak chooses to leave his Guru, it is not because of

his

> > > > intense yearning(tulmul) for liberation,(as you have

> explained)

> > but

> > > > only due to his high ego, with which he will never realise

his

> > aim

> > > > of self realisation. A true sadhak gets guidance from his

> Guru,

> > > even

> > > > if the Guru has given away his gross body(sthula deha).

> Because

> > the

> > > > disciple does 'adhnyapalan " of his Guru's words and becomes

> more

> > > and

> > > > more introverted that the Nirgun Gurutatva starts guiding him

> > from

> > > > within. Ref (Path of Guru's Grace) vol-4 of Science of

> > Spirituality

> > > > published by Santan Sanstha.

> > > >

> > > > Please write your articles very clearly, without leaving room

> for

> > > > misinterpretations. What you have really wanted to convey in

> > your

> > > > article is actually that a real seeker does not stop at

> anything

> > > > until he reaches his goal. But the message below gives

> > > > out a completely different meaning.

> > > >

> > > > Gratitude.

> > > > Gurucharni.

> > > > Chitra Srini

> > > >

> > > > ----------------------------

-

> > > > [sadhaka] All That is Needed is Intense Longing for

> > > > Salvation (July 12, 2008)

> > > > sadhaka

> > > > Saturday, July 12, 2008, 5:00 AM

> > > >

> > > > :Shree Hari:

> > > >

> > > > 12th July, 2008, Saturday

> > > > Aashaad Shukla Navami, Vikram Samvat 2065, Shanivar

> > > >

> > > > A Sadhak (Spiritual Aspirant) who has a true longing for his

> > > > spiritual betterment and salvation, will not last anywhere

> > without

> > > > attaining salvation. If he finds a Guru, but is unable to

> attain

> > > > salvation through him, then he will not last with that Guru.

> If

> > he

> > > > becomes a sadhu (ascetic), but still does not attain

> salvation,

> > > then

> > > > there too he will not last long. If he joins an organization,

> > there

> > > > too he will not last. Until a hungry man, does not get food,

> how

> > > > can he rest? If there is deep and intense longing for

> salvation,

> > > > he will be unable to stay put anywhere. Staying put is simply

> not

> > > > in his hands. He will stay rested, only where his deep

> spiritual

> > > > longing is fulfilled.

> > > >

> > > > Out of great fortune and luck, one receives satsang

> (association

> > > > with truth) - " Bade bhaag paayib satsangaa " (Manasa. Utter.

> > 33:4).

> > > > But in that same scripture (granth) that writes about great

> > > fortune,

> > > > it is also written, " Jehi ke Jehi per satya sanehu. So tehi

> > > > milayee ne kachu sandehu. " (Manasa., Baal. 259:3). One who

has

> a

> > > > real and intense longing for spiritual truths, will certainly

> > > > receive real satsang (association of good company, Truth).

> > > >

> > > > He who has a real longing for salvation, he will receive the

> > > > opportunity for salvation and spiritual betterment - there is

> no

> > > > doubt about it. In this matter, it is not about one's luck or

> > > > fortune.

> > > >

> > > > In worldly matters such as acquisition of wealth, it is

> > essential

> > > to

> > > > have three things.

> > > > 1) Desire for wealth,

> > > > 2) Effort to acquire the wealth and

> > > > 3) Luck (fortune).

> > > >

> > > > But God Realization is possible by mere longing / desiring.

> This

> > > > human body has been received for the purpose of God

> Realization.

> > If

> > > > God is not attained, than how did this human body in anyway,

> aid

> > in

> > > > achieving this aim and purpose? Thus, by giving up worldly

> > desires,

> > > > exclusively awaken within the inquiry into the Self (Atma) or

> > > awaken

> > > > within an intense longing for God Realization. In this is the

> > > > success of human life.

> > > >

> > > > From " Mere Toh Giridhar Gopal, Dusero ne Koyi, " in Hindi pg

19

> by

> > > > Swami Ramsukhdasji Maharaj.

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

 

A sadhaka asks a question: In life, is it essential to have a Guru

or not?

 

I would say if this question keeps arising to a sadhaka, then answer

is " YES " .

 

Guru means " that " whatever that instills the quest in us to pursue

with untiring energy to find out what we are. That which turns our

mind inward by pushing us from outside until we feel the pull from

inside to discover our essence!

 

The best thing I have found is to just burn with the longing to know

truth to the extent that no price is ever greater than discovery of

truth of oneself( Note:Truth of oneself and not truth about

oneself).

 

To be a disciple, one needs to develop complete humility which will

open up one's mind to watch, listen, hear and contemplate. This will

bring all that we need home. All of a sudden one may find that one

is drawn to someone whose presence and words have magical quality

taking one to unknown dimension! His/Her answers bring satisfaction

never found before even through the scriptures, peace unknown, and

joy that knows no cause! One's whole being may cry out " yes, yes,

this is what I have been waiting " .

 

Recognizing such inner voice is of utmost importance at this time.

Responding to such directions appropriately happens spontaneously,

inspite of us. At this point, sadhakas, just know that you have the

Guru! A Guru is born in our heart right then and there!

 

Such a non-individual in the form of apparant individual becomes the

mouthpiece of God to announce God's glory and thus become a channel

between us and God to remove our darkness and lead us to light

ultimately! Why channel, because experience of God is beyond mind

and intellect!

 

Thus I don't hesitate to say, the best resource to realization is

hearing the truth from the lips of your Guru. Scriptures and

everything else are the next best!

 

Namaskars, Pratap

 

(Pratap Bhatt)

--

 

Dear readers,

 

om ojnana timirandasya, jnana jnana salakaya,

caksur unmilitam yena, tasmai sri gurave namah

 

" I was born in the darkest ignorance, and my spiritual master opened

my eyes with the torchlight of knowledge. I offer my humble

obeisances unto him " .

 

In the words below, our friend has tried to point out that men/women

do not need guru. Personally, I cannot see how anyone can come to

such a conclusion....even to learn how to do simple things in this

world, such as to become proficient in book-keeping, to learn the

art of cooking, electricity, etc....any art or science, one must

approach a teacher. Even if one says he learnt from a book, still,

a person has written the book. If there was no need for guru, then

it would be so easy for everyone in Kali yuga to come to the level

of those high-minded saints that existed in previous yugas. Do we

see this happening? And in truth, aren't the symptoms of Kali

become worse and worse? Intoxiication, gambling, meat-eating, and

prostitution are rampant everywhere, even in the most gentle, clean

communities, one can still find it all either by the television or

online.

 

One who is himself coming from the transcendental world can look

into the heart of a disciple and perceive the deficiency in the

heart, so that the disciple may come to a level of spiritual

awareness. The lessons taught by guru can be painful, if the

sadhaka is attached to worldly things such as prestige, money,

power, etc. Due to the nature of pratistha, the desire for fame,

these anarthas are not always visible to the jiva. So, without the

help of guru, one may go on, life time after life time, thinking

oneself so pure and advanced.

 

This in itself is an illusion, for the pure soul is always

introspective and striving for purity, not complacent with a sense

of, " I am so pure. " It is conveyed throughout the Gita that Arjuna

is confused, bewildered, and playing the role of a disciple, FOR OUR

BENEFIT. If there was no need of the guru/disciple relationship,

why did Arjuna present himself as a bewildered jiva

chapter two, verse 7.... " now I am confused about my duty and have

lost all composure because of weakness. In this condition I am

asking You to tell me clearly what is best for me. Now I am

Your disciple and a soul surrendered unto You. Please instruct

me. " ? The entire Gita is presented to bring Arjun to the point of

executing his duty for the satisfaction of Lord Sri Krsna, not to

tell him to live life by whatever he feels in his heart. Illusion

must be broken by one free from illusion.

 

Respectfully,

 

Mahalaksmi Dasi

 

---

, " sadhak_insight "

<sadhak_insight wrote:

>

> Hari Om

>

> A Saadhak has asked question – " Is it essential to have Guru or

> not? " . He has sought Gita views on the subject.

>

> If one reads carefully Gita (say 6:5, 6:6) , it is abundantly clear

> that it is not the principle d by Gita that one should

> become Guru or disciple. It is very clear.

>

> Gita 6:5 reads as under:-

>

> " Let a man emancipate himself by his own self; and not degrade

> himself; for he himself is his friend, as well as, his enemy.

>

> Gita 6:6 reads as under:-

>

> " To him, who has conquered his self by himself, his own self is a

> friend : but to him who has not conquered the self, his own self

> acts as his foe. "

>

> Initiation (initiating or being initiated) is not the principle of

> the Gita. A man is his own preceptor, therefore he has to know,

> learn, and imbibe in the teachings the gospel by his own self. When

> all is Paramatma (VASUDEVAH SARVAM), then who except Paramatma is a

> preceptor ! (KRISHNAM VANDE JAGADGURUM - Krishna is Guru of entire

> world). Who will reveal the gospel and to whom will he reveal it?

>

> Therefore, instead of perceiving defects in others, a man should

> perceive defects in his own self and try to get rid of them and

> teach the gospel to himself. He himself should become his own

> preceptor, he himself should become his leader and he himself

should

> become his own ruler!

>

> Every human being has been given " CONSCIENCE " (Viveka) along with

> this human body. That conscience is our Guru. It never changes. It

> never tells us something that is inappropriate. It never agrees to

> our wrong doings - NEVER! It is our direct experience. Who then can

> be a better Guru than our own conscience, residing right within us?

>

> Jai Shree Krishna

>

> Vyas N B

> -

>

> Namaste....

>

> My respects to all in this sanga....I am writing in respect to the

question by Vyasa. Ramchandra...he asked what the Bhagavad Gita

says in regard to the need for a guru. I am guided by my diksha

guru, and by my siksha guru, to speak in answer to this question.

It is truly nothing short of thievery if a disciple presents what he

has been given from his guru, and fails to acknowledge his

indebtedness toward the one who has given the knowledge.

>

> In the fourth chapter of the Gita, Transcendental Knowledge,

chapter 34, it is said, " tad viddhi pranipatena, pariprasnene

sevaya, upadeksyanti te jnanam, jnaninas tattva-darsinah " " Just try

to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master. Inquire from

him submissively and render service unto him.

> The self-realized soul can impart knowledge unto you because he

has seen the truth. "

>

> Another pertinent quote is in the glorious Srimad

Bhagavatam....chapter eleven, canto three, verse 21. " tasmad gurum

prapadyeta, jijnasuh sreya uttamam, sabde pare ca nisnatam, brahmany

upasamasrayam " Therefore, any person who seriously desires real

happiness must seek a bon fide spiritual master and take shelter of

him thru initiation. The qualification of a bona fide spiritual

master is that he has realized the conclusions of the scriptures

> by deliberation and is able to convince others of these

conclusions. Such great personalities, who have taken shelter of

the Supreme Godhead, leaving aside all material considerations,

should be understood to be bona fide spiritual masters " .

>

> There are so many individuals who may say that guru is not

necessary, but the words of the Gita and the Bhagavatam are from the

Lord directly. Sri Krsna says that a guru IS necessary. While I

agree that it is true, Guru is everywhere, until an individual comes

to the realized platform, of seeing the presence of God in

everything, at every moment, a diksha guru is necessary to begin the

students progress, and to guide him to enter into bhajan of the Lord.

>

> If someone is saying that initiation and guru is not important,

perhaps that is true for him/her, but it is cheating to say that

this is the case for everyone....we are not all on the same level.

So, such an individual, who is unaware of the needs of others, he

himself must also be in need of some instruction? A beginner on

the path must be guided....and ultimately, as each new level of

awareness dawns on the student, the beauty of a truly genuine

> student is that he/she always feels oneself to be a beginner,

though simultaneously that person knows within of his achievements.

It is said of an uttama (topmost) adhikari, that he has to come

> down to the level of a madhyama (intermediate) adhikari in order to

> preach.....as the uttama is seeing all souls acting perfectly, and

serving the Lord better than himself, due to his overwhelming and

genuine humility. In such a state, there is no need, no ability to

preach to others. It is this personality that we must seek out, one

who is seeing within their heart the loving pastimes of the Divine

couple, Sri Sri Radha and Krsna. Not everyone may want to worship

that particular aspect of the divine, that is individual

> rasa, but the true guru understands this individuality, and

doesn't force anything foreign on a disciple, as is the case with

Anupama in the Caitanya Caritamrtra.....he had sold his head at the

feet of Lord Ramachandra, and could not give his full-hearted

devotion to Lord Caitanya. Lord Caitanya glorified him for his love

and blessed him.

>

> respectfully yours,

> Mahalaksmi Dasi

>

> -

>

> How can someone be directed towards the Divine when all that exists

> is the Divine?

> Where one is being directed FROM and directed TO is the same, it is

> the Divine only.

>

> Seeking is an impersonal action, it does not come from an

individual,

> it is the play of the Divine itself to lose sight of itself and

this

> then gives rise to the action of seeking. Seeking is an action

> arising from No-thing, there is no seeker. The seeker is the very

> illusion that is dispelled when all is seen to be the Divine only.

> Action arises as thinking and as sensation from No-thing, there is

no

> thinker, no individual producing the feeings that appear. There is

no

> individual. The concept that one is an individual continues as long

> as the seeking action arises, when it no longer arises it ceases

NOT

> because of an apparent individuals action but because the Divine

> simply no longer gives rise to the seeking action through that

> particular form. Nothing that the apparent individual does can

bring

> an end to the illusion of there being an individual. The action of

> seeking and the ceasation of it are grace.

>

> With Love avasa

>

> " Adrian Meyers "

>

> -

-

>

> I read an essay on guru-Sishya, an elaboration of a couplet from

> taittireeya upanishad, which goes like

>

> AcAryah poorva roopam, antEvAsyuttara roopam

> vidyA sandhih, pravacanam sandhAnam

>

> The author in elaborating this concept says that everything around

> us, whether a living being or otherwise, has the capacity of

> becoming a guru; that when one is ready to receive knowledge,

> everything around him becomes a Guru.

>

> Ramakrishna

> (Krishna Pillalamarri)

>

>

> , " sadhak_insight "

> <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> >

> > -Shri Hari-

> >

> > Rajendra J Bohra's down to earth no nonsense comment is one that

I

> > wholly agree with.

> >

> > Regarding Shakti that permeates existence, it is a force that is

> > experienced, one does not need to believe in it, she can

introduce

> > herself, if the door to your soul is open. The burning desire

for

> > the truth is a key it seems. ( I will put in a question that was

> asked, " Why so much pain " ), I am not sure but Gitaji 12:5 may

> explain, I read two translations.

> >

> > People of the West as a rule, do not have the knowledge that is

> > known in India, most people have never heard of the Bhagavad

Gita,

> and because of centuries of suppression of these matters they can

> fall into pitfalls. But help is always at hand, Paramatma is true

to

> all.

> >

> > There is a term that is finding popular usage, 'Tipping Point',

it

> is

> > at that spiritual tipping point that the seeker steps forward

> relying

> > on Divine support, and it is their acknowledging and understand

> that

> > this IS sacred that will save them from harm. It is at this point

> > that Gitaji 12:7 makes sense to me.

> > Yes from then on Gurus appear, not necessarily one ,

circumstances

> > can be confusing often bewildering. Some people say they do not

> believe in coincidence, certainly too many things to be

coincidence.

> The Divine hand is clearly at work.

> >

> > With Respect and Divine Love,

> >

> > Mike

> > (Mike Keenor)

> >

> > --------------------------------

-

> >

> > Loving Divine,

> > Pranam.

> > Thanks to all for the beautiful satsang, enjoyed it all.

Whatever

> I

> > am going to say is just a little addition to it. The fact is,

most

> > of us are very weak in our determination to attain Godhood

because

> > of the difficulties faced in detaching ourselves from the world.

> > Also, we are very forgetful that all is God - vasudeva sarvam

> > (including myself and others) & that is our biggest mistake/sin.

> So

> > I believe that it is also ok to have a human being as our Guru

who

> > can constantly remind us of who we are, how can we remain in

touch

> > with The Truth, some do's and don'ts, strengthen our will,

motivate

> > us, until we reach that oneness. Guru-Shishya paramparaa is very

> > sacred, those who have experienced it need no further

explanation.

> > I am very grateful to my Guru for everything. As stated already

> > Guru-tatva (essence) is the same regardless from whom we learn,

as

> > long as we are conscious of learning from other sources, & yes,

> > ultimately, it all comes from the same, one & only source -

> > God/Bhrahman/Paramaatmaa!

> >

> > I don't remember an exact story that I heard from Baba, so if

> > someone knows it please elaborate, it is about Guru-Shishya.

> Either

> > Shri Ashtavakra in Guru's role asked King Janak or King Janak in

> the

> > role of Guru asked Shri Vyasji's son, first to give gurudakshina

> > (offerings given by disciple to guru at the end of his/her study)

> > before even the spiritual study began. The shishya was surprised

> > and asked why gurudakshina first? Guru said that once the so

> called

> > shishya attains self-realization, who is guru and who is shishya?

> > From whom to collect gurudakshina? Guru and shishya become one &

> > the same! So the point is, until we are not in touch with who we

> > really are all is valid, but the minute we are self-realized, all

> > separateness/differences dissolve!

> >

> > Shri Vyasji beautifully describes this point in BG Chapter 10

using

> > actually Shri Krishna as his voice. Shri Krishna, [a human

being,

> > whom Arjun has accepted as his guru (BG 2:7), helps resolve

Arjun's

> > doubts (BG 18:73) in his spiritual journey], is addressed as

> Bhagwan

> > (BG 2:2), Mahaan - great soul (BG 18:74), Yogeshwar - great yogi

> (BG

> > 18:75/78) due to His attainment in spirituality. Shri Vyasji, a

> > human being, is also addressed as Bhagwan, a great soul, due to

his

> > attainment in spirituality as well (BG 18:75). In BG 10:37,

Vyasji

> > using Krishna's voice indicates that there is no difference

between

> > him & Shri Krishna and there is no difference between Shri

Krishna

> &

> > Arjun (still an ignorant). Chapter 10 really helps expand our

> > horizon, brings us out of our limited mentality and frees us to

be

> > really how vast we are being children of God! But, like Arjun,

we

> > need to continue with our efforts, study scriptures, take help of

> > guru/guide, do selfless act, follow all do's and don'ts,

cultivate

> > love, etc.; even though nothing is needed all is needed, until we

> > truly understand who we are! Just prior to a moment of

> realization,

> > all carry some value but as soon as it dawns (like when a switch

is

> > tuned on, darkness disappears immediately), all are dropped

> > immediately, scriptures carry no meaning (BG 2:46), nothing

remains

> > to be done by I (selfless karma), the so difficult world just

gets

> > dropped (equanimity, peace), other than God nothing exist (true

> > surrender), nothing remains to be said (Krishna-Arjun dialog

ends).

> > But until that aatma-gyaan is attained, one doesn't stop like

> > Arjun!

> >

> > Even though we know we are all divine, children of the very same

> > God, we forget and in this forgetfulness we continue to commit

many

> > mistakes. Baba says mistakes are not for mistakes, they are for

> > correction. So let's correct the very basic mistake by

remembering

> > God in our daily activities, let's be conscious of who is

> performing

> > these activities hiding within our body & then let God lead us

the

> > way He wants us to lead.

> >

> > humble regards,

> > always at Thy Holy Feet

> >

> > Manjula Patel

> >

> > --------------------------------

-

> >

> > In life, is it essential to have a Guru or not ? Please provide

a

> > clear answer that is based on the scriptures (mainly Gita). What

> > has Gita written about need for Guru and Guru Parampara ?

> >

> > JINDAJI MAI GURU BANANA JARURI HAI YA NAAHI? ...SPASHT JAWAAB

> DIJIYE

> > GITA SE. GITA NE GURU BANANE KI JARURIYAAT AUR GURU PARAMAPARAA

KE

> > BAARE MEIN KYAA LIKHAA HAI

> >

> > vyas.ramchandra

> > --------------------------------

> > , " sadhak_insight "

> > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Jai Shri Krishna,

> > >

> > > It is not necessary at all to establish Guru-Shishya (Teacher

†"

> > > Student) relationship for progressing in the spiritual journey,

> > > instead our own intense curiosity, our own craving desire to

> > > liberate (Kalyaan) ONLY is extremely essential. Once a sadhak

> > > experiences such a craving desire for his Kalyaan, then he gets

> > the

> > > requisite material for spiritual progress through Parmaatma's

> > > grace, through discourses of realized souls, through

scriptures,

> > > through books, through any incidence or situation, through any

> > > atmosphere.

> > >

> > > There is a special force (Shakti) which is controlling the

entire

> > > world. When man believes the existence of such Shakti, then he

> > > diverts towards Parmaatma. Then Parmaatma Himself destroys the

> > > ignorance of such a man (Gitaji 10:11) and Parmaatma frees

such a

> > > man from the deathly sea of the world (Gitaji 12:7).

> > >

> > > From whomsoever one gets light (Prakaash), knowledge, his right

> > > path, his duty, his aim (Dhyeya), is Guru-Tatva. That Guru-

Tatva

> > is

> > > residing within everyone. Whosoever is instrumental in bringing

> > out

> > > that Guru-Tatva should be considered Guru. Actually Parmaatma

is

> > > everyone's Guru because everyone gets knowledge, light from Him

> > only.

> > >

> > > These days one should stay away from Gurus who force the

Shishya

> > to

> > > worship the Guru, chant their name, take care of their bodies,

> > > require them to have their leftover food and water etc. because

> > > there is a great possibility of being cheated by them, like

> Sitaji

> > > (wife of Lord Rama) from Demon Ravan disguised as a sage.

> > >

> > > A renowned doctor can not treat his son or wife, but calls

> another

> > > doctor. Why, because of his attachment (Moha, Mamta) to his

> > family.

> > > Only an outside doctor, who is not attached can treat well.

> > > Similarly, only unattached, impartial Saints can impart

> knowledge.

> > > It is very sad that today's Gurus say that you become my

> > > Shishya (disciple) then I will give you good knowledge. Such

> Gurus

> > > are actually slaves of the Shishyas (disciples).

> > >

> > > Actually, one does not have to make Guru. Guru just becomes.

> > Anyone

> > > who knows more than us is our Guru, whether we believe it or

not.

> > >

> > > One does not have to search Guru. Just as when the fruit ripes,

> > the

> > > parrot comes on its own. Similarly, you get ready for getting

> > > liberation, Guru will come automatically.

> > >

> > > A real Guru is one who diverts people towards Parmaatma instead

> of

> > > towards himself.

> > >

> > > " Krishnam Vande Jagatgurum "

> > >

> > > Narayana Narayana

> > >

> > > Rajendra J Bohra

> > >

> > > ------------------------------

-

> > > , " sadhak_insight "

> > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Hari Om

> > > >

> > > > With reference to the message posted on the above subject and

> > > views

> > > > of learned Saadhaks, I humbly submit that in this article

> > Swamiji

> > > > has described the momentum to which a saadhak reaches when

the

> > > true

> > > > longing/ desire in him arises for salvation/ realisation. As

> > > rightly

> > > > concluded by Guru Charanji and Chitra Sriniji, here the

> > intention

> > > is

> > > > to reflect that a true seeker does not stop at anything once

> > true

> > > > longing/desire in him awakens. There are many other

continuing

> > > > examples given in the article to reflect this intention. You

> are

> > > > right that Guru/ Shishya parampara ( Spiritual Master /

> > Disciple

> > > > tradition) is very pious and yielded great results in the

past

> > to

> > > > the saadhaks and disciples. But then, now, in this Kaliyuga,

we

> > > find

> > > > rather too many Gurus directing disciples more towards

> > themselves

> > > > rather than towards Paramatma (God) and we notice that quite

> > > often,

> > > > a seeker finds himself empty handed in the end, many times

> even

> > > > cheated. It is those type of Gurus which are referred in this

> > > > Article - not real , desireless, egoless Gurus carrying

> > > traditions

> > > > of olden times.

> > > >

> > > > As regards the observation of Adrian Meyers, let me state

that

> > > even

> > > > Swamiji on many occasions stated/written in his articles that

> > > there

> > > > are situations when realisation can take place without having

> > any

> > > > previous interest or desire for it at all. Desire is a mean,

> not

> > > an

> > > > end. Yes, there is only enlightenment, all are already

divine,

> > and

> > > > in the end (at final stage) this desire to realise Paramatma

> > also

> > > > has to be relinquished by saadhak (Spiritual aspirant). You

get

> > > > Paramatma realisation ONLY when you are in a totally desire

> less

> > > > mode. In fact, in the last speech of Swamiji, which was

posted

> > on

> > > > this site during this month only (around 2nd/3rd July), there

> is

> > a

> > > > confirmation of the views of Adrian Meyers.

> > > >

> > > > But that does not mean that a spiritual aspirant should not

> > desire

> > > > for Paramatma at the beginning of his journey. It is a must.

> > > > Nothing can replace the role of intense desire for Paramatma

in

> > > > realisation. JUST AS: When you reach door steps of a temple/

> > > church

> > > > etc, you relinquish/ leave your shoes, vehicle etc. outside

> > only

> > > > e.g. you leave the very means of reaching to temple outside,

> and

> > > go

> > > > before the Paramatma deity all alone, SIMILARLY at the final

> > > stage

> > > > of Paramatma Realisation you leave even the desire for

> > realisation

> > > > outside and go all alone - desireless! The fact that the

> element

> > > > (Essence) is ever existing is undeniable and there is nothing

> in

> > > the

> > > > article which disputes this fact (rather there can never be a

> > > denial

> > > > of this fact in any article written by Swamiji). We ourselves

> > > employ

> > > > the word " REALISATION " and not " GETTING " , whenever we talk

> about

> > > > salvation etc. It is a fact that the element is already

> received

> > > by

> > > > us. It is realising/ discovering/ remembering an already

> > available

> > > > but forgotten thing. Hence there is no contradiction of any

> > sort

> > > > whatsoever in the concept

> > > >

> > > > Here the article was not on the Paramatma Realisation, the

> > > article

> > > > was on the means thereof viz. intense desire, the momentum

> > which

> > > an

> > > > aspirant gathers in his journey, and the role of intense

> desire

> > > as

> > > > well as Satsanga (good company). There is nothing wrong,

> > > therefore,

> > > > in the article or in the translation. It is accurate, not an

> > inch

> > > > missing the mark, leave aside million miles or light years

> > missing

> > > > the mark. Not an inch in fact..

> > > >

> > > > Therefore, I would urge, in all humbleness to fellow

aspirants

> > to

> > > > appreciate the fact that these short messages are picked from

> > > > Swamiji's books and are translated from Hindi to English as

it

> > is.

> > > > Many times the messages are chosen with reference to one

subtle

> > > > principle only and the moderator stops translating further

and

> > > hence

> > > > the totality of the article gets limited/suffers a need for

> > > > explanation. That then is a reflection on the translator ONLY

> > and

> > > on

> > > > the space constraints regarding the size of message ONLY. In

> > > reality

> > > > the latter reason is more operative. However, the translation

> of

> > > > this article, the text , tenor, intention is absolutely

> > > blemishless.

> > > > Please trust me, I am not moderator or translator, I am as

good

> > a

> > > > fellow saadhak as are all others like Adrian or Guru

Charanji.

> > > >

> > > > With sincere respects and divine regards to all fellow

Saadhaks

> > > >

> > > > Jai Shree Krishna

> > > >

> > > > Vyas N B

> > > >

> > > > ----------------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > -

> > > > , " sadhak_insight "

> > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > The statement you have made here misses the mark by a

million

> > > > miles.

> > > > > It does not in any way take into account the fact that many

> > come

> > > to

> > > > > realisation without having any previous interest OR desire

> for

> > > it

> > > > at

> > > > > all.

> > > > >

> > > > > There is ONLY enlightenment, all are already Divine, and

the

> > > > seeking

> > > > > of this is the very thing that prevents the seeing of this

> > fact.

> > > > > There is ONLY the Divine including that idea that there is

> > other

> > > > > than the Divine.

> > > > > Avasa

> > > > > (Adrian Meyers)

> > > > > --------------------------

--

> > > > >

> > > > > Namaskar,

> > > > >

> > > > > In your article you have mentioned that a sadhak having

true

> > > > longing

> > > > > for his spiritual betterment will not last with a Guru if

he

> is

> > > > > unable to attain salvation through Him.

> > > > >

> > > > > The above is totally in contradiction with the Guru-shishya

> > > > > parampara which Bharat is famous for. In fact if you take

> the

> > > > > history of many Saints including that of Adhishankaracharya

> > > > > (Gyanyogi) the role play of The Guru is what leads the

> Disciple

> > > > > towards ultimate liberation. It is in fact The Guru who

> > chooses

> > > his

> > > > > Disciple and not the other way around.

> > > > >

> > > > > And once accepted by a Guru, The Disciple just obeys his

> Guru's

> > > > > advice and with The Guru's grace attains Gyan, Bhakthi and

> > > > > Vairagya. Guru's grace alone guides him in his further

> > > spiritual

> > > > > journey and leads him to Final liberation. (Mumukshatva)

> > > > >

> > > > > If a sadhak chooses to leave his Guru, it is not because of

> his

> > > > > intense yearning(tulmul) for liberation,(as you have

> > explained)

> > > but

> > > > > only due to his high ego, with which he will never realise

> his

> > > aim

> > > > > of self realisation. A true sadhak gets guidance from his

> > Guru,

> > > > even

> > > > > if the Guru has given away his gross body(sthula deha).

> > Because

> > > the

> > > > > disciple does 'adhnyapalan " of his Guru's words and becomes

> > more

> > > > and

> > > > > more introverted that the Nirgun Gurutatva starts guiding

him

> > > from

> > > > > within. Ref (Path of Guru's Grace) vol-4 of Science of

> > > Spirituality

> > > > > published by Santan Sanstha.

> > > > >

> > > > > Please write your articles very clearly, without leaving

room

> > for

> > > > > misinterpretations. What you have really wanted to convey

in

> > > your

> > > > > article is actually that a real seeker does not stop at

> > anything

> > > > > until he reaches his goal. But the message below gives

> > > > > out a completely different meaning.

> > > > >

> > > > > Gratitude.

> > > > > Gurucharni.

> > > > > Chitra Srini

> > > > >

> > > > > --------------------------

--

> -

> > > > > [sadhaka] All That is Needed is Intense Longing

for

> > > > > Salvation (July 12, 2008)

> > > > > sadhaka

> > > > > Saturday, July 12, 2008, 5:00 AM

> > > > >

> > > > > :Shree Hari:

> > > > >

> > > > > 12th July, 2008, Saturday

> > > > > Aashaad Shukla Navami, Vikram Samvat 2065, Shanivar

> > > > >

> > > > > A Sadhak (Spiritual Aspirant) who has a true longing for

his

> > > > > spiritual betterment and salvation, will not last anywhere

> > > without

> > > > > attaining salvation. If he finds a Guru, but is unable to

> > attain

> > > > > salvation through him, then he will not last with that

Guru.

> > If

> > > he

> > > > > becomes a sadhu (ascetic), but still does not attain

> > salvation,

> > > > then

> > > > > there too he will not last long. If he joins an

organization,

> > > there

> > > > > too he will not last. Until a hungry man, does not get

food,

> > how

> > > > > can he rest? If there is deep and intense longing for

> > salvation,

> > > > > he will be unable to stay put anywhere. Staying put is

simply

> > not

> > > > > in his hands. He will stay rested, only where his deep

> > spiritual

> > > > > longing is fulfilled.

> > > > >

> > > > > Out of great fortune and luck, one receives satsang

> > (association

> > > > > with truth) - " Bade bhaag paayib satsangaa " (Manasa. Utter.

> > > 33:4).

> > > > > But in that same scripture (granth) that writes about great

> > > > fortune,

> > > > > it is also written, " Jehi ke Jehi per satya sanehu. So tehi

> > > > > milayee ne kachu sandehu. " (Manasa., Baal. 259:3). One who

> has

> > a

> > > > > real and intense longing for spiritual truths, will

certainly

> > > > > receive real satsang (association of good company, Truth).

> > > > >

> > > > > He who has a real longing for salvation, he will receive

the

> > > > > opportunity for salvation and spiritual betterment - there

is

> > no

> > > > > doubt about it. In this matter, it is not about one's luck

or

> > > > > fortune.

> > > > >

> > > > > In worldly matters such as acquisition of wealth, it is

> > > essential

> > > > to

> > > > > have three things.

> > > > > 1) Desire for wealth,

> > > > > 2) Effort to acquire the wealth and

> > > > > 3) Luck (fortune).

> > > > >

> > > > > But God Realization is possible by mere longing / desiring.

> > This

> > > > > human body has been received for the purpose of God

> > Realization.

> > > If

> > > > > God is not attained, than how did this human body in

anyway,

> > aid

> > > in

> > > > > achieving this aim and purpose? Thus, by giving up worldly

> > > desires,

> > > > > exclusively awaken within the inquiry into the Self (Atma)

or

> > > > awaken

> > > > > within an intense longing for God Realization. In this is

the

> > > > > success of human life.

> > > > >

> > > > > From " Mere Toh Giridhar Gopal, Dusero ne Koyi, " in Hindi pg

> 19

> > by

> > > > > Swami Ramsukhdasji Maharaj.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

-Shree Hari-

 

I think there can be trouble in translation, and these

interpretations can be coloured by the interpreters inner beliefs.

Looking at two different sources in English Translation A & B :

 

Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master.

Inquire from him submissively and render service unto him. The self-

realized souls can impart knowledge unto you because they have seen

the truth. [4.34](Trans.A)

 

Know that by long prostration, by question and by service, the wise

who have realised the Truth will instruct you in (that)

knowledge.[4.34](Trans.B)

 

As all surrender unto Me, I reward them accordingly. Everyone follows

My path in all respects, O son of Pritha. [4.11(Trans.A)]

 

In whatever way men approach me, even so do I reward them; my path do

men tread in all ways, Arjuna![4.11(Trans.B)]

 

But note :

One must deliver himself with the help of his mind, and not degrade

himself. The mind is the friend of the conditioned soul, and his

enemy as well. [6.5](Trans.A)(I have a problem with mind, self seems

more appropriate).

 

Let a man lift himself by his own Self alone; let him not lower

himself, for this self alone is the friend of oneself and this self

alone is the enemy of oneself.6.5](Trans.B)

 

Without being overly pedantic B.G. 6.5 Translation A & B are in clear

agreement. I also read this as a directive.

 

However there seems to be a greyness between A & B in B.G. 4.34, but

what is clear to me is Krishna is not pointing to a single

Guru,(Especially translation B) I would take this to be advice

given.(Just try.../ Know that..).

 

As for B.G. 4.11 , I read that all humanity will come to Krishna by

their own chosen path.

 

Beyond this is experience, to me that is the final litmus test to

clarify the mind.

 

With Respect and Divine Love.

 

Mike

(Mike Keenor)

 

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

Swamiji has conveyed some very key messages regarding the subject,

many have been covered, yet I will attempt to summarize a few points, by His

grace -

 

1) If you accept God as Guru, your work is completed. In God, you

will receive everything.

 

2) Swamiji says that Gita 4:34 is not indicating that you must

engage in a formal Guru - Disciple relationship and receive formal

initiation. When one goes to a realized, great Soul, prostrates at

his feet (surrenders to him), does all activities according to his

instructions, and expresses one's keen quest and inquiry into the

essential nature, then the Guru (tattva), will instruct the aspirant in the

essential knowledge of Truth, without even engaging in a formal Guru-Disciple

relation.

 

3) Liberation is from one's own inner and intense longing, not by making someone

a Guru. Until that deep longing, that intensity, that quest for salvation is not

awakened within one's self, till that time, even God Himself cannot free one,

then how will a Guru be able to do so ?

 

4) Great Souls come in to this world, to bring human beings close to

God, not to get people attracted to and involved in themselves

instead. One who attracts others towards himself (to worship him, to

meditate on him etc) is a deceitful imposter.

 

5) Guru is the essence (tattva, element), Guru is not a human

being. To see a Guru in a human being and to see a human being in a

Guru is a crime.

 

6) A great soul is never restricted to the body, therefore why the

worship of the physical aspects? As far as possible one must stay

far away from and escape safely away from one who gets others to

worship him, meditate on body made of flesh and bones, recite his name, eating

his leftover morsels, etc. etc., because in this there is a great likelihood of

being cheated and these things becoming an obstacle in worship of God. One

should worship the form of God alone, one must meditate on God alone, one must

make an offering of food to God alone.

 

7) As stated in the scriptures - " Uma Ram sum hit jag naahi; Guru pitu maatu

bandhu prabhu naahi. "

" In this Universe their is no one, neither Guru (teacher), nor

father, nor mother, nor brother who is our well-wisher, as God is. "

 

8) God, even though being a Universal Guru, does not make anyone

his disciple (chela). He only makes them his comrade and friend.

Arjun is only accepting His guidance. It is his reverence for Shri Krishna that

makes him say he is a sishya.. but Krishna does not say that you are my formal

chella... Shri Krishna - Arjun dialogue did not require a formal initiation or

Guru-disciple relationship to receive guidance.

 

Other points -

 

9) Those Gurus that have desire to make disciples can never ever

become Gurus.

 

10) Individuals that transact or trade their teachings are not real Gurus. Those

that say - first become my disciple (student), then I will reveal to you the

path towards God Realization, are like traders of God and an item traded is of

less value than the listed price.

 

11) It is a sad thing that on becoming a disciple, one becomes

allured, develops attachment, and when this delusion sets

in, both guru and disciple take a fall - " Guru Lobhi, Shishya

Laalchi, dono khele daav Dono dooba parasram, baith patther ki naav. "

 

12) Particularly for a devotee who has taken refuge in God (sharanagat bhakta),

God Himself takes care of all the needs of the devotee including spiritual

upliftment and liberation. Gita 4:34 only is in reference to a seeker of

knowledge, not a devotee who has taken refuge in God. The Bhakti yoga chapters

are Ch 7-12 do not address this subject at all.

 

13) Please think about this. " Krishnam Vande Jagatgurum. " God is the

Guru of this entire Universe and you are in this Universe. Lord

Krishna's mantra is - " Bhagavad Gita " . Contemplate on the Gita and

live by it, and attain salvation.

 

There is so much more on this subject... in light of the group's

guidelines, I will stop here.

 

Meera das

Ram Ram

 

 

Loving Divine,

Pranam.

 

This email is in response to the need for a Guru. As I have

indicated before & many others have also listed that the Guru-tattva

(essense) is one & the same in all then why this big fuss about not

having human guru? Whether we learn from bird, animal, sky, earth,

human or any creature, what difference does it make, after all guru-

tattva is the same, isn't it? Everything flows from the same source

so everything in this creation is capable of teaching us something.

We are not conscious of ourselves & surroundings around us but we

are not completely unaware or ignorant either. We all learn

differently - some learn by listening or looking or touching or

experimenting - all senses are involved or one can also learn just

by silencing their senses, etc. So when we have a teacher to teach

us various subjects why not to teach spirituality, the most

essential of all subjects of our life? I wanted to clarify some

misunderstanding people have. Guru is a must regardless in which

form it comes but relationship with that form is dangerous! Do you

understand what I am trying to say? For us to feel comfortable in

our learning, we may establish relationship and that is ok too but

to remain attached to it is the problem. Please understand the

subtleties of this aspect. I think when I read Swamiji's message, I

felt his whole concern is people leaving their families to break-off

relationships and they establish another relationship (as they just

can't truly drop the relationship) with their guru (another form)

and between these 2 relationships, there is no difference. One is

still attached. All relationships need to be dropped, including

guru-disciple and it happens only when guru-disciple become one and

the same. If only one exist where is relationship? In physical

relationships we are bound but when the learning happens without

this bondage, it is just a pure learning and when one is at this

level, one is learning from all creation, not just human guru.

 

Shri Ramkrishna Paramhamsa had Totapuri as his guru to lead him to

his final formless stage. Lord Rama had 2 human gurus - Shri

Valmiki and Sage Vashishtha. Shri Krishna had 3 human Gurus in His

life - Gargaachaarya (kul-guru), Rishi Sandipani (in whose

ashram/hermitage He stayed from childhood), and Sage Ghor Angiras

(Yoga/Spiritual Guru). So now tell me if Krishna had 3 human gurus,

how can He oppose having a Guru??? There are events listed of Rama

& Krishna serving (physically) their gurus with their utmost love

and reverence and thus acquiring all vidya (knowledge). In BG 2:7,

Arjun says guide me I am your shishya. BG 3:34-36, Lord says serve

gyaani (one who knows The Truth). BG 4:1, Bhagwan talks about

teaching karma yoga to Sun to Manu to Ikshvaku. In BG4:2, He also

mentions about this (guru-shishya) being a Paramparaa. In BG 4:3,

He says I am telling you this yoga because you are my friend and

devotee (bhakta). True guru will not say that I am your guru. In

BG 11:43, Arjun is finally capable of understanding the guru-tattva

within his friend Krisha then he says that Krishana, the formless

one, is the greatest Guru. Behine every creation or form, Krishna

(formless) is there (vasudev sarvam), that's why every thing is

capable of teaching us and we are capable of learning so instead of

condemning one way vs. other, just accept that we all learn

differently, we all are at different level of learning, and we all

are at different pace of learning, then one will understand that any

and every way of leaning is coming from one and only one source.

 

Some questions have been raised in past about guru being mean or

greedy and what not... Lord defines in Gitaji who is true gyaani,

serving whom one can attain the Truth. Other scriptures also

describe how to know who is the true guru. In past email we have

discussed this subject, may be one can perform search in

archieves. However, I have some questions:

If by listening to guru my attachment to money, family, food,

physical pleasure, etc. doesn't go away, what shall the true guru do

so that such attachments get dropped?

if I am not curbing my anger or greed even though I know it is bad

for me and others, what shall the true guru do?

if my emotions are coming in my way or my relationships are the

hurdle or my emotions/attitude are blocking my path or my ego is

just blinding me from evolving, what shall the true guru do to clear

out the path?

What are the options available to true guru to teach me whatever I

needed to learn to evolve in my spiritual path and attain the

ultimate goal of my life?

Please think and answer to the above. If you can answer them

honestly looking from guru's perspective, you will be able to

understand some of the behavior of guru then you will be grateful to

guru for what he does for you than condemning him. Baba says if you

are attached with the workings of body and mind, your own negativity

is reflected in other people, environment or the world around you.

 

Hope this helps...

humble regards,

always at Thy Holy Feet

 

-

-

ALL PREVIOUS MESSAGES

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

 

A sadhaka asks a question: In life, is it essential to have a Guru

or not?

 

I would say if this question keeps arising to a sadhaka, then answer

is " YES " .

 

Guru means " that " whatever that instills the quest in us to pursue

with untiring energy to find out what we are. That which turns our

mind inward by pushing us from outside until we feel the pull from

inside to discover our essence!

 

The best thing I have found is to just burn with the longing to know

truth to the extent that no price is ever greater than discovery of

truth of oneself( Note:Truth of oneself and not truth about

oneself).

 

To be a disciple, one needs to develop complete humility which will

open up one's mind to watch, listen, hear and contemplate. This will

bring all that we need home. All of a sudden one may find that one

is drawn to someone whose presence and words have magical quality

taking one to unknown dimension! His/Her answers bring satisfaction

never found before even through the scriptures, peace unknown, and

joy that knows no cause! One's whole being may cry out " yes, yes,

this is what I have been waiting " .

 

Recognizing such inner voice is of utmost importance at this time.

Responding to such directions appropriately happens spontaneously,

inspite of us. At this point, sadhakas, just know that you have the

Guru! A Guru is born in our heart right then and there!

 

Such a non-individual in the form of apparant individual becomes the

mouthpiece of God to announce God's glory and thus become a channel

between us and God to remove our darkness and lead us to light

ultimately! Why channel, because experience of God is beyond mind

and intellect!

 

Thus I don't hesitate to say, the best resource to realization is

hearing the truth from the lips of your Guru. Scriptures and

everything else are the next best!

 

Namaskars, Pratap

 

(Pratap Bhatt)

--

 

Dear readers,

 

om ojnana timirandasya, jnana jnana salakaya,

caksur unmilitam yena, tasmai sri gurave namah

 

" I was born in the darkest ignorance, and my spiritual master opened

my eyes with the torchlight of knowledge. I offer my humble

obeisances unto him " .

 

In the words below, our friend has tried to point out that men/women

do not need guru. Personally, I cannot see how anyone can come to

such a conclusion....even to learn how to do simple things in this

world, such as to become proficient in book-keeping, to learn the

art of cooking, electricity, etc....any art or science, one must

approach a teacher. Even if one says he learnt from a book, still,

a person has written the book. If there was no need for guru, then

it would be so easy for everyone in Kali yuga to come to the level

of those high-minded saints that existed in previous yugas. Do we

see this happening? And in truth, aren't the symptoms of Kali

become worse and worse? Intoxiication, gambling, meat-eating, and

prostitution are rampant everywhere, even in the most gentle, clean

communities, one can still find it all either by the television or

online.

 

One who is himself coming from the transcendental world can look

into the heart of a disciple and perceive the deficiency in the

heart, so that the disciple may come to a level of spiritual

awareness. The lessons taught by guru can be painful, if the

sadhaka is attached to worldly things such as prestige, money,

power, etc. Due to the nature of pratistha, the desire for fame,

these anarthas are not always visible to the jiva. So, without the

help of guru, one may go on, life time after life time, thinking

oneself so pure and advanced.

 

This in itself is an illusion, for the pure soul is always

introspective and striving for purity, not complacent with a sense

of, " I am so pure. " It is conveyed throughout the Gita that Arjuna

is confused, bewildered, and playing the role of a disciple, FOR OUR

BENEFIT. If there was no need of the guru/disciple relationship,

why did Arjuna present himself as a bewildered jiva

chapter two, verse 7.... " now I am confused about my duty and have

lost all composure because of weakness. In this condition I am

asking You to tell me clearly what is best for me. Now I am

Your disciple and a soul surrendered unto You. Please instruct

me. " ? The entire Gita is presented to bring Arjun to the point of

executing his duty for the satisfaction of Lord Sri Krsna, not to

tell him to live life by whatever he feels in his heart. Illusion

must be broken by one free from illusion.

 

Respectfully,

 

Mahalaksmi Dasi

 

Hari Om

 

A Saadhak has asked question – " Is it essential to have Guru or

not? " . He has sought Gita views on the subject.

 

If one reads carefully Gita (say 6:5, 6:6) , it is abundantly clear

that it is not the principle d by Gita that one should

become Guru or disciple. It is very clear.

 

Gita 6:5 reads as under:-

 

" Let a man emancipate himself by his own self; and not degrade

himself; for he himself is his friend, as well as, his enemy.

 

Gita 6:6 reads as under:-

 

" To him, who has conquered his self by himself, his own self is a

friend : but to him who has not conquered the self, his own self

acts as his foe. "

 

Initiation (initiating or being initiated) is not the principle of

the Gita. A man is his own preceptor, therefore he has to know,

learn, and imbibe in the teachings the gospel by his own self. When

all is Paramatma (VASUDEVAH SARVAM), then who except Paramatma is a

preceptor ! (KRISHNAM VANDE JAGADGURUM - Krishna is Guru of entire

world). Who will reveal the gospel and to whom will he reveal it?

 

Therefore, instead of perceiving defects in others, a man should

perceive defects in his own self and try to get rid of them and

teach the gospel to himself. He himself should become his own

preceptor, he himself should become his leader and he himself should

become his own ruler!

 

Every human being has been given " CONSCIENCE " (Viveka) along with

this human body. That conscience is our Guru. It never changes. It

never tells us something that is inappropriate. It never agrees to

our wrong doings - NEVER! It is our direct experience. Who then can

be a better Guru than our own conscience, residing right within us?

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

-

 

Namaste....

 

My respects to all in this sanga....I am writing in respect to the question by

Vyasa. Ramchandra...he asked what the Bhagavad Gita says in regard to the need

for a guru. I am guided by my diksha guru, and by my siksha guru, to speak in

answer to this question. It is truly nothing short of thievery if a disciple

presents what he has been given from his guru, and fails to acknowledge his

indebtedness toward the one who has given the knowledge.

 

In the fourth chapter of the Gita, Transcendental Knowledge, chapter 34, it is

said, " tad viddhi pranipatena, pariprasnene sevaya, upadeksyanti te jnanam,

jnaninas tattva-darsinah " " Just try to learn the truth by approaching a

spiritual master. Inquire from him submissively and render service unto him.

The self-realized soul can impart knowledge unto you because he has seen the

truth. "

 

Another pertinent quote is in the glorious Srimad Bhagavatam....chapter eleven,

canto three, verse 21. " tasmad gurum prapadyeta, jijnasuh sreya uttamam, sabde

pare ca nisnatam, brahmany upasamasrayam " Therefore, any person who seriously

desires real happiness must seek a bon fide spiritual master and take shelter of

him thru initiation. The qualification of a bona fide spiritual master is that

he has realized the conclusions of the scriptures

by deliberation and is able to convince others of these conclusions. Such great

personalities, who have taken shelter of the Supreme Godhead, leaving aside all

material considerations, should be understood to be bona fide spiritual

masters " .

 

There are so many individuals who may say that guru is not necessary, but the

words of the Gita and the Bhagavatam are from the Lord directly. Sri Krsna says

that a guru IS necessary. While I agree that it is true, Guru is everywhere,

until an individual comes to the realized platform, of seeing the presence of

God in everything, at every moment, a diksha guru is necessary to begin the

students progress, and to guide him to enter into bhajan of the Lord.

 

If someone is saying that initiation and guru is not important, perhaps that is

true for him/her, but it is cheating to say that this is the case for

everyone....we are not all on the same level. So, such an individual, who is

unaware of the needs of others, he himself must also be in need of some

instruction? A beginner on the path must be guided....and ultimately, as each

new level of awareness dawns on the student, the beauty of a truly genuine

student is that he/she always feels oneself to be a beginner, though

simultaneously that person knows within of his achievements. It is said of an

uttama (topmost) adhikari, that he has to come

down to the level of a madhyama (intermediate) adhikari in order to

preach.....as the uttama is seeing all souls acting perfectly, and serving the

Lord better than himself, due to his overwhelming and genuine humility. In such

a state, there is no need, no ability to preach to others. It is this

personality that we must seek out, one who is seeing within their heart the

loving pastimes of the Divine couple, Sri Sri Radha and Krsna. Not everyone

may want to worship that particular aspect of the divine, that is individual

rasa, but the true guru understands this individuality, and doesn't force

anything foreign on a disciple, as is the case with Anupama in the Caitanya

Caritamrtra.....he had sold his head at the feet of Lord Ramachandra, and could

not give his full-hearted devotion to Lord Caitanya. Lord Caitanya glorified

him for his love and blessed him.

 

respectfully yours,

Mahalaksmi Dasi

 

-

 

How can someone be directed towards the Divine when all that exists

is the Divine?

Where one is being directed FROM and directed TO is the same, it is

the Divine only.

 

Seeking is an impersonal action, it does not come from an individual,

it is the play of the Divine itself to lose sight of itself and this

then gives rise to the action of seeking. Seeking is an action

arising from No-thing, there is no seeker. The seeker is the very

illusion that is dispelled when all is seen to be the Divine only.

Action arises as thinking and as sensation from No-thing, there is no

thinker, no individual producing the feeings that appear. There is no

individual. The concept that one is an individual continues as long

as the seeking action arises, when it no longer arises it ceases NOT

because of an apparent individuals action but because the Divine

simply no longer gives rise to the seeking action through that

particular form. Nothing that the apparent individual does can bring

an end to the illusion of there being an individual. The action of

seeking and the ceasation of it are grace.

 

With Love avasa

 

" Adrian Meyers "

 

--

 

I read an essay on guru-Sishya, an elaboration of a couplet from

taittireeya upanishad, which goes like

 

AcAryah poorva roopam, antEvAsyuttara roopam

vidyA sandhih, pravacanam sandhAnam

 

The author in elaborating this concept says that everything around

us, whether a living being or otherwise, has the capacity of

becoming a guru; that when one is ready to receive knowledge,

everything around him becomes a Guru.

 

Ramakrishna

(Krishna Pillalamarri)

 

--

 

-Shri Hari-

 

Rajendra J Bohra's down to earth no nonsense comment is one that I

wholly agree with.

 

Regarding Shakti that permeates existence, it is a force that is

experienced, one does not need to believe in it, she can introduce

herself, if the door to your soul is open. The burning desire for

the truth is a key it seems. ( I will put in a question that was asked, " Why so

much pain " ), I am not sure but Gitaji 12:5 may explain, I read two translations.

 

People of the West as a rule, do not have the knowledge that is

known in India, most people have never heard of the Bhagavad Gita, and because

of centuries of suppression of these matters they can fall into pitfalls. But

help is always at hand, Paramatma is true to all.

 

There is a term that is finding popular usage, 'Tipping Point', it is

at that spiritual tipping point that the seeker steps forward relying

on Divine support, and it is their acknowledging and understand that

this IS sacred that will save them from harm. It is at this point

that Gitaji 12:7 makes sense to me.

Yes from then on Gurus appear, not necessarily one , circumstances

can be confusing often bewildering. Some people say they do not believe in

coincidence, certainly too many things to be coincidence. The Divine hand is

clearly at work.

 

With Respect and Divine Love,

 

Mike

(Mike Keenor)

 

 

 

Loving Divine,

Pranam.

Thanks to all for the beautiful satsang, enjoyed it all. Whatever I

am going to say is just a little addition to it. The fact is, most

of us are very weak in our determination to attain Godhood because

of the difficulties faced in detaching ourselves from the world.

Also, we are very forgetful that all is God - vasudeva sarvam

(including myself and others) & that is our biggest mistake/sin. So

I believe that it is also ok to have a human being as our Guru who

can constantly remind us of who we are, how can we remain in touch

with The Truth, some do's and don'ts, strengthen our will, motivate

us, until we reach that oneness. Guru-Shishya paramparaa is very

sacred, those who have experienced it need no further explanation.

I am very grateful to my Guru for everything. As stated already

Guru-tatva (essence) is the same regardless from whom we learn, as

long as we are conscious of learning from other sources, & yes,

ultimately, it all comes from the same, one & only source -

God/Bhrahman/Paramaatmaa!

 

I don't remember an exact story that I heard from Baba, so if

someone knows it please elaborate, it is about Guru-Shishya. Either

Shri Ashtavakra in Guru's role asked King Janak or King Janak in the

role of Guru asked Shri Vyasji's son, first to give gurudakshina

(offerings given by disciple to guru at the end of his/her study)

before even the spiritual study began. The shishya was surprised

and asked why gurudakshina first? Guru said that once the so called

shishya attains self-realization, who is guru and who is shishya?

From whom to collect gurudakshina? Guru and shishya become one &

the same! So the point is, until we are not in touch with who we

really are all is valid, but the minute we are self-realized, all

separateness/differences dissolve!

 

Shri Vyasji beautifully describes this point in BG Chapter 10 using

actually Shri Krishna as his voice. Shri Krishna, [a human being,

whom Arjun has accepted as his guru (BG 2:7), helps resolve Arjun's

doubts (BG 18:73) in his spiritual journey], is addressed as Bhagwan

(BG 2:2), Mahaan - great soul (BG 18:74), Yogeshwar - great yogi (BG

18:75/78) due to His attainment in spirituality. Shri Vyasji, a

human being, is also addressed as Bhagwan, a great soul, due to his

attainment in spirituality as well (BG 18:75). In BG 10:37, Vyasji

using Krishna's voice indicates that there is no difference between

him & Shri Krishna and there is no difference between Shri Krishna &

Arjun (still an ignorant). Chapter 10 really helps expand our

horizon, brings us out of our limited mentality and frees us to be

really how vast we are being children of God! But, like Arjun, we

need to continue with our efforts, study scriptures, take help of

guru/guide, do selfless act, follow all do's and don'ts, cultivate

love, etc.; even though nothing is needed all is needed, until we

truly understand who we are! Just prior to a moment of realization,

all carry some value but as soon as it dawns (like when a switch is

tuned on, darkness disappears immediately), all are dropped

immediately, scriptures carry no meaning (BG 2:46), nothing remains

to be done by I (selfless karma), the so difficult world just gets

dropped (equanimity, peace), other than God nothing exist (true

surrender), nothing remains to be said (Krishna-Arjun dialog ends).

But until that aatma-gyaan is attained, one doesn't stop like

Arjun!

 

Even though we know we are all divine, children of the very same

God, we forget and in this forgetfulness we continue to commit many

mistakes. Baba says mistakes are not for mistakes, they are for

correction. So let's correct the very basic mistake by remembering

God in our daily activities, let's be conscious of who is performing

these activities hiding within our body & then let God lead us the

way He wants us to lead.

 

humble regards,

always at Thy Holy Feet

 

Manjula Patel

 

 

 

In life, is it essential to have a Guru or not ? Please provide a

clear answer that is based on the scriptures (mainly Gita). What

has Gita written about need for Guru and Guru Parampara ?

 

JINDAJI MAI GURU BANANA JARURI HAI YA NAAHI? ...SPASHT JAWAAB DIJIYE

GITA SE. GITA NE GURU BANANE KI JARURIYAAT AUR GURU PARAMAPARAA KE

BAARE MEIN KYAA LIKHAA HAI

 

vyas.ramchandra

 

 

 

 

Re: Please Clarify Message on Real Seeker and His Quest for Liberation

 

 

Jai Shri Krishna,

 

It is not necessary at all to establish Guru-Shishya (Teacher †"

Student) relationship for progressing in the spiritual journey,

instead our own intense curiosity, our own craving desire to

liberate (Kalyaan) ONLY is extremely essential. Once a sadhak

experiences such a craving desire for his Kalyaan, then he gets the

requisite material for spiritual progress through Parmaatma's

grace, through discourses of realized souls, through scriptures,

through books, through any incidence or situation, through any

atmosphere.

 

There is a special force (Shakti) which is controlling the entire

world. When man believes the existence of such Shakti, then he

diverts towards Parmaatma. Then Parmaatma Himself destroys the

ignorance of such a man (Gitaji 10:11) and Parmaatma frees such a

man from the deathly sea of the world (Gitaji 12:7).

 

From whomsoever one gets light (Prakaash), knowledge, his right

path, his duty, his aim (Dhyeya), is Guru-Tatva. That Guru-Tatva is

residing within everyone. Whosoever is instrumental in bringing out

that Guru-Tatva should be considered Guru. Actually Parmaatma is

everyone's Guru because everyone gets knowledge, light from Him only.

 

These days one should stay away from Gurus who force the Shishya to

worship the Guru, chant their name, take care of their bodies,

require them to have their leftover food and water etc. because

there is a great possibility of being cheated by them, like Sitaji

(wife of Lord Rama) from Demon Ravan disguised as a sage.

 

A renowned doctor can not treat his son or wife, but calls another

doctor. Why, because of his attachment (Moha, Mamta) to his family.

Only an outside doctor, who is not attached can treat well.

Similarly, only unattached, impartial Saints can impart knowledge.

It is very sad that today's Gurus say that you become my

Shishya (disciple) then I will give you good knowledge. Such Gurus

are actually slaves of the Shishyas (disciples).

 

Actually, one does not have to make Guru. Guru just becomes. Anyone

who knows more than us is our Guru, whether we believe it or not.

 

One does not have to search Guru. Just as when the fruit ripes, the

parrot comes on its own. Similarly, you get ready for getting

liberation, Guru will come automatically.

 

A real Guru is one who diverts people towards Parmaatma instead of

towards himself.

 

" Krishnam Vande Jagatgurum "

 

Narayana Narayana

 

Rajendra J Bohra

 

 

 

Re: Please Clarify Message on Real Seeker and His Quest for Liberation

 

 

Hari Om

 

With reference to the message posted on the above subject and views

of learned Saadhaks, I humbly submit that in this article Swamiji

has described the momentum to which a saadhak reaches when the true

longing/ desire in him arises for salvation/ realisation. As rightly

concluded by Guru Charanji and Chitra Sriniji, here the intention is

to reflect that a true seeker does not stop at anything once true

longing/desire in him awakens. There are many other continuing

examples given in the article to reflect this intention. You are

right that Guru/ Shishya parampara ( Spiritual Master / Disciple

tradition) is very pious and yielded great results in the past to

the saadhaks and disciples. But then, now, in this Kaliyuga, we find

rather too many Gurus directing disciples more towards themselves

rather than towards Paramatma (God) and we notice that quite often,

a seeker finds himself empty handed in the end, many times even

cheated. It is those type of Gurus which are referred in this

Article - not real , desireless, egoless Gurus carrying traditions

of olden times.

 

As regards the observation of Adrian Meyers, let me state that even

Swamiji on many occasions stated/written in his articles that there

are situations when realisation can take place without having any

previous interest or desire for it at all. Desire is a mean, not an

end. Yes, there is only enlightenment, all are already divine, and

in the end (at final stage) this desire to realise Paramatma also

has to be relinquished by saadhak (Spiritual aspirant). You get

Paramatma realisation ONLY when you are in a totally desire less

mode. In fact, in the last speech of Swamiji, which was posted on

this site during this month only (around 2nd/3rd July), there is a

confirmation of the views of Adrian Meyers.

 

But that does not mean that a spiritual aspirant should not desire

for Paramatma at the beginning of his journey. It is a must.

Nothing can replace the role of intense desire for Paramatma in

realisation. JUST AS: When you reach door steps of a temple/ church

etc, you relinquish/ leave your shoes, vehicle etc. outside only

e.g. you leave the very means of reaching to temple outside, and go

before the Paramatma deity all alone, SIMILARLY at the final stage

of Paramatma Realisation you leave even the desire for realisation

outside and go all alone - desireless! The fact that the element

(Essence) is ever existing is undeniable and there is nothing in the

article which disputes this fact (rather there can never be a denial

of this fact in any article written by Swamiji). We ourselves employ

the word " REALISATION " and not " GETTING " , whenever we talk about

salvation etc. It is a fact that the element is already received by

us. It is realising/ discovering/ remembering an already available

but forgotten thing. Hence there is no contradiction of any sort

whatsoever in the concept

 

Here the article was not on the Paramatma Realisation, the article

was on the means thereof viz. intense desire, the momentum which an

aspirant gathers in his journey, and the role of intense desire as

well as Satsanga (good company). There is nothing wrong, therefore,

in the article or in the translation. It is accurate, not an inch

missing the mark, leave aside million miles or light years missing

the mark. Not an inch in fact..

 

Therefore, I would urge, in all humbleness to fellow aspirants to

appreciate the fact that these short messages are picked from

Swamiji's books and are translated from Hindi to English as it is.

Many times the messages are chosen with reference to one subtle

principle only and the moderator stops translating further and hence

the totality of the article gets limited/suffers a need for

explanation. That then is a reflection on the translator ONLY and on

the space constraints regarding the size of message ONLY. In reality

the latter reason is more operative. However, the translation of

this article, the text , tenor, intention is absolutely blemishless.

Please trust me, I am not moderator or translator, I am as good a

fellow saadhak as are all others like Adrian or Guru Charanji.

 

With sincere respects and divine regards to all fellow Saadhaks

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

 

 

, " sadhak_insight "

The statement you have made here misses the mark by a million miles.

It does not in any way take into account the fact that many come to

realisation without having any previous interest OR desire for it at

all.

 

There is ONLY enlightenment, all are already Divine, and the seeking

of this is the very thing that prevents the seeing of this fact.

There is ONLY the Divine including that idea that there is other

than the Divine.

Avasa

(Adrian Meyers)

----------------------------

 

Namaskar,

 

In your article you have mentioned that a sadhak having true longing

for his spiritual betterment will not last with a Guru if he is

unable to attain salvation through Him.

 

The above is totally in contradiction with the Guru-shishya

parampara which Bharat is famous for. In fact if you take the

history of many Saints including that of Adhishankaracharya

(Gyanyogi) the role play of The Guru is what leads the Disciple

towards ultimate liberation. It is in fact The Guru who chooses his

Disciple and not the other way around.

 

And once accepted by a Guru, The Disciple just obeys his Guru's

advice and with The Guru's grace attains Gyan, Bhakthi and

Vairagya. Guru's grace alone guides him in his further spiritual

journey and leads him to Final liberation. (Mumukshatva)

 

If a sadhak chooses to leave his Guru, it is not because of his

intense yearning(tulmul) for liberation,(as you have explained) but

only due to his high ego, with which he will never realise his aim

of self realisation. A true sadhak gets guidance from his Guru, even

if the Guru has given away his gross body(sthula deha). Because the

disciple does 'adhnyapalan " of his Guru's words and becomes more and

more introverted that the Nirgun Gurutatva starts guiding him from

within. Ref (Path of Guru's Grace) vol-4 of Science of Spirituality

published by Santan Sanstha.

 

Please write your articles very clearly, without leaving room for

misinterpretations. What you have really wanted to convey in your

article is actually that a real seeker does not stop at anything

until he reaches his goal. But the message below gives

out a completely different meaning.

 

Gratitude.

Gurucharni.

Chitra Srini

 

-----------------------------

[sadhaka] All That is Needed is Intense Longing for

Salvation (July 12, 2008)

sadhaka

Saturday, July 12, 2008, 5:00 AM

 

:Shree Hari:

 

12th July, 2008, Saturday

Aashaad Shukla Navami, Vikram Samvat 2065, Shanivar

 

A Sadhak (Spiritual Aspirant) who has a true longing for his

spiritual betterment and salvation, will not last anywhere without

attaining salvation. If he finds a Guru, but is unable to attain

salvation through him, then he will not last with that Guru. If he

becomes a sadhu (ascetic), but still does not attain salvation, then

there too he will not last long. If he joins an organization, there

too he will not last. Until a hungry man, does not get food, how

can he rest? If there is deep and intense longing for salvation,

he will be unable to stay put anywhere. Staying put is simply not

in his hands. He will stay rested, only where his deep spiritual

longing is fulfilled.

 

Out of great fortune and luck, one receives satsang (association

with truth) - " Bade bhaag paayib satsangaa " (Manasa. Utter. 33:4).

But in that same scripture (granth) that writes about great fortune,

it is also written, " Jehi ke Jehi per satya sanehu. So tehi

milayee ne kachu sandehu. " (Manasa., Baal. 259:3). One who has a

real and intense longing for spiritual truths, will certainly

receive real satsang (association of good company, Truth).

 

He who has a real longing for salvation, he will receive the

opportunity for salvation and spiritual betterment - there is no

doubt about it. In this matter, it is not about one's luck or

fortune.

 

In worldly matters such as acquisition of wealth, it is essential to

have three things.

1) Desire for wealth,

2) Effort to acquire the wealth and

3) Luck (fortune).

 

But God Realization is possible by mere longing / desiring. This

human body has been received for the purpose of God Realization. If

God is not attained, than how did this human body in anyway, aid in

achieving this aim and purpose? Thus, by giving up worldly desires,

exclusively awaken within the inquiry into the Self (Atma) or awaken

within an intense longing for God Realization. In this is the

success of human life.

 

From " Mere Toh Giridhar Gopal, Dusero ne Koyi, " in Hindi pg 19 by

Swami Ramsukhdasji Maharaj.

[Guest guest]

Hari Om

 

Oh , What a divine shape this deliberation has taken ! Satsanga, and

Group discussion has its own divinity ! Afterall, it is JNANA YAGYA

as per Gitaji.

 

Gita - 4:34 can not be said to be confirming that Guru Shishya

Parampara is mandatory or even necessary for SELF REALIZATION. Let

us examine that:-

 

" Learn that by your obeisance humble reverence , by questioning and

by your service : the wise who have realized the truth , will

instruct thee , in that knowledge (jnana) "

 

That is all 4:34 says. What does the preceptor do here? He can

merely teach the disciple regarding the unreal world. In fact from

the preceptor, a disciple does not gain knowledge about the self,

but he gains knowledge about the world. When a striver comes to know

the truth about the unreal world, his affinity for the world , MAY (

depending upon the determination of striver and striver only) get

renounced and he realizes the self, which is self evident.. The

term " Upadekshyanti " (instruct) means, that the great souls instruct

a striver, (nothing more) but it is not necessary that he should

attain self realization. Ultimately it is the FAITH which get you

realization. Where has it been written that it is compulsory ?

Entire world comes to the rescue and help of that person who has

turned towards the Paramatma. Even Mother Nature becomes especially

inclined to help such person. Each and everything which happens in

his life becomes his Guru. The Law of Karma accelerates to destroy

all his past sins in a super fast manner. Grace of Paramatma starts

giving him the way. Gurus start coming to him as if guided by a

natural force. Rishi Dattatreya, as per Bhagavatam, counted 24 Gurus

from whom he received knowledge, without these 24 people ( including

a prostitute, some animals also) even knowing that some one has

considered them to be Guru ! That is what is element called Guru..

 

The same Lord therefore in the same Gita, in the same Chapter 4 also

tells to the same Arjuna that :-

 

" Verily, nothing purifies in this world, like knowledge (jnana). He

who has been perfected in Yoga fully finds it AUTOMATICALLY and

POSITIVELY in the SELF " (Gita 4:38)

 

Here the words employed should be read carefully. Here Lord declares

that a Karma Yogi having become perfected in Yoga, gains this

knowledge POSITIVELY (assuredly). The term " kalena " used in this

verse, needs special attention. The Lord has used the third

inflexion, which means that through Karma Yoga, one certainly gains

knowledge of the SELF, or realizes Paramatma. The term " svayam "

(self generated), shows that a Yogi gains the knowledge of the self,

while performing his duty, without the guidance of a Guru, or the

scriptures or any other means. AUTOMATIC ! Leave aside , Guru - even

accepting the existence element called " Paramatma " is not necessary

in Self realization through the paths of Karma Yoga and Jnana Yoga.

It is not necessary at all! That is the justice of Paramatma. That

is the grace of Paramatma. That is the power of SELF.

 

Now let us come to Arjuna's uttering of the word " shishya " in 2:7.

Here he also stated that " I surrender to you " . At that point Arjuna

was too blind, too grief stricken to talk sense at all. I have

constraints of space, otherwise I can give a whole list of what

Arjuna told to Krishna upto this verse and how Krishna ruthlessly

proved him not only wrong but proved that he was talking just

reverse of what was reality. (If some sadhak is interested, he can

post a question) It was the stupidity of Arjuna that made Krishna

laugh freely and then started the real Gita. Stupidity – because on

one hand Arjuna said that I surrender to you. On other hand in the

very next verse and in 2:9, he said " I will not fight " . Now one who

surrenders, does he get right to say so ? No ! If you read 18:66

which sets the definition of surrender - categorical No ! In 2:7

itself Arjuna tells " I Surrender and now teach me " . This is not the

principle of surrender. Once you have surrendered, whether Krishna

teaches you, or does not teach you, is not your prerogative at all.

Hence 2:7 neither establishes Guru Shishya parampara nor establishes

principles of surrender. It was a grief stricken Arjuna, uttering

sense lessly the words which came to his mind - making Krishna

laugh ! ! Krishna never accepted " preceptorship " vis a vis Arjuna !

He in fact later on called him to be his friend - which was how

Krishna took the relationship. In fact as late as upto verse 18:59

Krishna did not believe Arjuna to be either disciple or surrendered.

 

There is no need of a Guru even for renouncing the affinity with the

world. Use of conscience is more than enough. If we just respect our

conscience, keep doing our duties in the world and remember always

that we do not belong to this world, we in due course of time will

get automatically liberated. Nothing else is needed. Had it been in

the hands of Saints and Sages, the world would not have been in the

shape it is today. A great Paramatma realized soul wants entire

humanity to get liberated. But is the SELF and SELF alone who has to

initiate and get initiated. Consider the example of EKLAVYA. He took

the Guru Tattwa (Element) not the body made of bones and flesh. Even

Lord Krishna could not liberate the entire humanity when He

incarnated. You, yourself, have to be willing. What a Guru can do,

unless the disciple is accepting him?. There is Guru already sitting

in you, CONSCIENCE. If some body cares to find out what

characteristics the person to be called as " preceptor " / Guru should

possess in order to fall with in the ambit of Gita 4:34, one will

perhaps have to spend whole life only in finding and locating him.

In this yuga it will be very difficult to find him. Paramatma cannot

be that arbitrary, to provide that who ever finds such a great soul

only can realize me, and no body else. The element called Guru

becomes essential only if there is an express provision in the

Scriptures to that effect. There is Guru element in everything, even

in a stone, even in a mountain if one has faith.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

 

 

---

, " sadhak_insight "

<sadhak_insight wrote:

>

> -Shree Hari-

>

> I think there can be trouble in translation, and these

> interpretations can be coloured by the interpreters inner beliefs.

> Looking at two different sources in English Translation A & B :

>

> Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master.

> Inquire from him submissively and render service unto him. The

self-

> realized souls can impart knowledge unto you because they have seen

> the truth. [4.34](Trans.A)

>

> Know that by long prostration, by question and by service, the wise

> who have realised the Truth will instruct you in (that)

> knowledge.[4.34](Trans.B)

>

> As all surrender unto Me, I reward them accordingly. Everyone

follows

> My path in all respects, O son of Pritha. [4.11(Trans.A)]

>

> In whatever way men approach me, even so do I reward them; my path

do

> men tread in all ways, Arjuna![4.11(Trans.B)]

>

> But note :

> One must deliver himself with the help of his mind, and not degrade

> himself. The mind is the friend of the conditioned soul, and his

> enemy as well. [6.5](Trans.A)(I have a problem with mind, self

seems

> more appropriate).

>

> Let a man lift himself by his own Self alone; let him not lower

> himself, for this self alone is the friend of oneself and this self

> alone is the enemy of oneself.6.5](Trans.B)

>

> Without being overly pedantic B.G. 6.5 Translation A & B are in

clear

> agreement. I also read this as a directive.

>

> However there seems to be a greyness between A & B in B.G. 4.34, but

> what is clear to me is Krishna is not pointing to a single

> Guru,(Especially translation B) I would take this to be advice

> given.(Just try.../ Know that..).

>

> As for B.G. 4.11 , I read that all humanity will come to Krishna

by

> their own chosen path.

>

> Beyond this is experience, to me that is the final litmus test to

> clarify the mind.

>

> With Respect and Divine Love.

>

> Mike

> (Mike Keenor)

>

> Shree Hari

> Ram Ram

>

> Swamiji has conveyed some very key messages regarding the subject,

> many have been covered, yet I will attempt to summarize a few

points, by His grace -

>

> 1) If you accept God as Guru, your work is completed. In God, you

> will receive everything.

>

> 2) Swamiji says that Gita 4:34 is not indicating that you must

> engage in a formal Guru - Disciple relationship and receive formal

> initiation. When one goes to a realized, great Soul, prostrates at

> his feet (surrenders to him), does all activities according to his

> instructions, and expresses one's keen quest and inquiry into the

> essential nature, then the Guru (tattva), will instruct the

aspirant in the essential knowledge of Truth, without even engaging

in a formal Guru-Disciple relation.

>

> 3) Liberation is from one's own inner and intense longing, not by

making someone a Guru. Until that deep longing, that intensity, that

quest for salvation is not awakened within one's self, till that

time, even God Himself cannot free one, then how will a Guru be able

to do so ?

>

> 4) Great Souls come in to this world, to bring human beings close

to

> God, not to get people attracted to and involved in themselves

> instead. One who attracts others towards himself (to worship him,

to

> meditate on him etc) is a deceitful imposter.

>

> 5) Guru is the essence (tattva, element), Guru is not a human

> being. To see a Guru in a human being and to see a human being in a

> Guru is a crime.

>

> 6) A great soul is never restricted to the body, therefore why the

> worship of the physical aspects? As far as possible one must stay

> far away from and escape safely away from one who gets others to

> worship him, meditate on body made of flesh and bones, recite his

name, eating his leftover morsels, etc. etc., because in this there

is a great likelihood of being cheated and these things becoming an

obstacle in worship of God. One should worship the form of God

alone, one must meditate on God alone, one must make an offering of

food to God alone.

>

> 7) As stated in the scriptures - " Uma Ram sum hit jag naahi; Guru

pitu maatu bandhu prabhu naahi. "

> " In this Universe their is no one, neither Guru (teacher), nor

> father, nor mother, nor brother who is our well-wisher, as God is. "

>

> 8) God, even though being a Universal Guru, does not make anyone

> his disciple (chela). He only makes them his comrade and friend.

> Arjun is only accepting His guidance. It is his reverence for Shri

Krishna that makes him say he is a sishya.. but Krishna does not say

that you are my formal chella... Shri Krishna - Arjun dialogue did

not require a formal initiation or Guru-disciple relationship to

receive guidance.

>

> Other points -

>

> 9) Those Gurus that have desire to make disciples can never ever

> become Gurus.

>

> 10) Individuals that transact or trade their teachings are not

real Gurus. Those that say - first become my disciple (student),

then I will reveal to you the path towards God Realization, are like

traders of God and an item traded is of less value than the listed

price.

>

> 11) It is a sad thing that on becoming a disciple, one becomes

> allured, develops attachment, and when this delusion sets

> in, both guru and disciple take a fall - " Guru Lobhi, Shishya

> Laalchi, dono khele daav Dono dooba parasram, baith patther ki

naav. "

>

> 12) Particularly for a devotee who has taken refuge in God

(sharanagat bhakta), God Himself takes care of all the needs of the

devotee including spiritual upliftment and liberation. Gita 4:34

only is in reference to a seeker of knowledge, not a devotee who has

taken refuge in God. The Bhakti yoga chapters are Ch 7-12 do not

address this subject at all.

>

> 13) Please think about this. " Krishnam Vande Jagatgurum. " God is

the

> Guru of this entire Universe and you are in this Universe. Lord

> Krishna's mantra is - " Bhagavad Gita " . Contemplate on the Gita and

> live by it, and attain salvation.

>

> There is so much more on this subject... in light of the group's

> guidelines, I will stop here.

>

> Meera das

> Ram Ram

>

>

> Loving Divine,

> Pranam.

>

> This email is in response to the need for a Guru. As I have

> indicated before & many others have also listed that the Guru-

tattva

> (essense) is one & the same in all then why this big fuss about not

> having human guru? Whether we learn from bird, animal, sky, earth,

> human or any creature, what difference does it make, after all

guru-

> tattva is the same, isn't it? Everything flows from the same

source

> so everything in this creation is capable of teaching us something.

> We are not conscious of ourselves & surroundings around us but we

> are not completely unaware or ignorant either. We all learn

> differently - some learn by listening or looking or touching or

> experimenting - all senses are involved or one can also learn just

> by silencing their senses, etc. So when we have a teacher to teach

> us various subjects why not to teach spirituality, the most

> essential of all subjects of our life? I wanted to clarify some

> misunderstanding people have. Guru is a must regardless in which

> form it comes but relationship with that form is dangerous! Do you

> understand what I am trying to say? For us to feel comfortable in

> our learning, we may establish relationship and that is ok too but

> to remain attached to it is the problem. Please understand the

> subtleties of this aspect. I think when I read Swamiji's message,

I

> felt his whole concern is people leaving their families to break-

off

> relationships and they establish another relationship (as they just

> can't truly drop the relationship) with their guru (another form)

> and between these 2 relationships, there is no difference. One is

> still attached. All relationships need to be dropped, including

> guru-disciple and it happens only when guru-disciple become one and

> the same. If only one exist where is relationship? In physical

> relationships we are bound but when the learning happens without

> this bondage, it is just a pure learning and when one is at this

> level, one is learning from all creation, not just human guru.

>

> Shri Ramkrishna Paramhamsa had Totapuri as his guru to lead him to

> his final formless stage. Lord Rama had 2 human gurus - Shri

> Valmiki and Sage Vashishtha. Shri Krishna had 3 human Gurus in His

> life - Gargaachaarya (kul-guru), Rishi Sandipani (in whose

> ashram/hermitage He stayed from childhood), and Sage Ghor Angiras

> (Yoga/Spiritual Guru). So now tell me if Krishna had 3 human

gurus,

> how can He oppose having a Guru??? There are events listed of Rama

> & Krishna serving (physically) their gurus with their utmost love

> and reverence and thus acquiring all vidya (knowledge). In BG 2:7,

> Arjun says guide me I am your shishya. BG 3:34-36, Lord says serve

> gyaani (one who knows The Truth). BG 4:1, Bhagwan talks about

> teaching karma yoga to Sun to Manu to Ikshvaku. In BG4:2, He also

> mentions about this (guru-shishya) being a Paramparaa. In BG 4:3,

> He says I am telling you this yoga because you are my friend and

> devotee (bhakta). True guru will not say that I am your guru. In

> BG 11:43, Arjun is finally capable of understanding the guru-tattva

> within his friend Krisha then he says that Krishana, the formless

> one, is the greatest Guru. Behine every creation or form, Krishna

> (formless) is there (vasudev sarvam), that's why every thing is

> capable of teaching us and we are capable of learning so instead of

> condemning one way vs. other, just accept that we all learn

> differently, we all are at different level of learning, and we all

> are at different pace of learning, then one will understand that

any

> and every way of leaning is coming from one and only one source.

>

> Some questions have been raised in past about guru being mean or

> greedy and what not... Lord defines in Gitaji who is true gyaani,

> serving whom one can attain the Truth. Other scriptures also

> describe how to know who is the true guru. In past email we have

> discussed this subject, may be one can perform search in

> archieves. However, I have some questions:

> If by listening to guru my attachment to money, family, food,

> physical pleasure, etc. doesn't go away, what shall the true guru

do

> so that such attachments get dropped?

> if I am not curbing my anger or greed even though I know it is bad

> for me and others, what shall the true guru do?

> if my emotions are coming in my way or my relationships are the

> hurdle or my emotions/attitude are blocking my path or my ego is

> just blinding me from evolving, what shall the true guru do to

clear

> out the path?

> What are the options available to true guru to teach me whatever I

> needed to learn to evolve in my spiritual path and attain the

> ultimate goal of my life?

> Please think and answer to the above. If you can answer them

> honestly looking from guru's perspective, you will be able to

> understand some of the behavior of guru then you will be grateful

to

> guru for what he does for you than condemning him. Baba says if

you

> are attached with the workings of body and mind, your own

negativity

> is reflected in other people, environment or the world around you.

>

> Hope this helps...

> humble regards,

> always at Thy Holy Feet

>

> -

> -

> ALL PREVIOUS MESSAGES

> Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

>

> A sadhaka asks a question: In life, is it essential to have a Guru

> or not?

>

> I would say if this question keeps arising to a sadhaka, then

answer

> is " YES " .

>

> Guru means " that " whatever that instills the quest in us to pursue

> with untiring energy to find out what we are. That which turns our

> mind inward by pushing us from outside until we feel the pull from

> inside to discover our essence!

>

> The best thing I have found is to just burn with the longing to

know

> truth to the extent that no price is ever greater than discovery of

> truth of oneself( Note:Truth of oneself and not truth about

> oneself).

>

> To be a disciple, one needs to develop complete humility which will

> open up one's mind to watch, listen, hear and contemplate. This

will

> bring all that we need home. All of a sudden one may find that one

> is drawn to someone whose presence and words have magical quality

> taking one to unknown dimension! His/Her answers bring satisfaction

> never found before even through the scriptures, peace unknown, and

> joy that knows no cause! One's whole being may cry out " yes, yes,

> this is what I have been waiting " .

>

> Recognizing such inner voice is of utmost importance at this time.

> Responding to such directions appropriately happens spontaneously,

> inspite of us. At this point, sadhakas, just know that you have the

> Guru! A Guru is born in our heart right then and there!

>

> Such a non-individual in the form of apparant individual becomes

the

> mouthpiece of God to announce God's glory and thus become a channel

> between us and God to remove our darkness and lead us to light

> ultimately! Why channel, because experience of God is beyond mind

> and intellect!

>

> Thus I don't hesitate to say, the best resource to realization is

> hearing the truth from the lips of your Guru. Scriptures and

> everything else are the next best!

>

> Namaskars, Pratap

>

> (Pratap Bhatt)

> -

-

>

> Dear readers,

>

> om ojnana timirandasya, jnana jnana salakaya,

> caksur unmilitam yena, tasmai sri gurave namah

>

> " I was born in the darkest ignorance, and my spiritual master

opened

> my eyes with the torchlight of knowledge. I offer my humble

> obeisances unto him " .

>

> In the words below, our friend has tried to point out that

men/women

> do not need guru. Personally, I cannot see how anyone can come to

> such a conclusion....even to learn how to do simple things in this

> world, such as to become proficient in book-keeping, to learn the

> art of cooking, electricity, etc....any art or science, one must

> approach a teacher. Even if one says he learnt from a book, still,

> a person has written the book. If there was no need for guru, then

> it would be so easy for everyone in Kali yuga to come to the level

> of those high-minded saints that existed in previous yugas. Do we

> see this happening? And in truth, aren't the symptoms of Kali

> become worse and worse? Intoxiication, gambling, meat-eating, and

> prostitution are rampant everywhere, even in the most gentle, clean

> communities, one can still find it all either by the television or

> online.

>

> One who is himself coming from the transcendental world can look

> into the heart of a disciple and perceive the deficiency in the

> heart, so that the disciple may come to a level of spiritual

> awareness. The lessons taught by guru can be painful, if the

> sadhaka is attached to worldly things such as prestige, money,

> power, etc. Due to the nature of pratistha, the desire for fame,

> these anarthas are not always visible to the jiva. So, without the

> help of guru, one may go on, life time after life time, thinking

> oneself so pure and advanced.

>

> This in itself is an illusion, for the pure soul is always

> introspective and striving for purity, not complacent with a sense

> of, " I am so pure. " It is conveyed throughout the Gita that Arjuna

> is confused, bewildered, and playing the role of a disciple, FOR

OUR

> BENEFIT. If there was no need of the guru/disciple relationship,

> why did Arjuna present himself as a bewildered jiva

> chapter two, verse 7.... " now I am confused about my duty and have

> lost all composure because of weakness. In this condition I am

> asking You to tell me clearly what is best for me. Now I am

> Your disciple and a soul surrendered unto You. Please instruct

> me. " ? The entire Gita is presented to bring Arjun to the point of

> executing his duty for the satisfaction of Lord Sri Krsna, not to

> tell him to live life by whatever he feels in his heart. Illusion

> must be broken by one free from illusion.

>

> Respectfully,

>

> Mahalaksmi Dasi

>

> Hari Om

>

> A Saadhak has asked question – " Is it essential to have Guru or

> not? " . He has sought Gita views on the subject.

>

> If one reads carefully Gita (say 6:5, 6:6) , it is abundantly clear

> that it is not the principle d by Gita that one should

> become Guru or disciple. It is very clear.

>

> Gita 6:5 reads as under:-

>

> " Let a man emancipate himself by his own self; and not degrade

> himself; for he himself is his friend, as well as, his enemy.

>

> Gita 6:6 reads as under:-

>

> " To him, who has conquered his self by himself, his own self is a

> friend : but to him who has not conquered the self, his own self

> acts as his foe. "

>

> Initiation (initiating or being initiated) is not the principle of

> the Gita. A man is his own preceptor, therefore he has to know,

> learn, and imbibe in the teachings the gospel by his own self. When

> all is Paramatma (VASUDEVAH SARVAM), then who except Paramatma is a

> preceptor ! (KRISHNAM VANDE JAGADGURUM - Krishna is Guru of entire

> world). Who will reveal the gospel and to whom will he reveal it?

>

> Therefore, instead of perceiving defects in others, a man should

> perceive defects in his own self and try to get rid of them and

> teach the gospel to himself. He himself should become his own

> preceptor, he himself should become his leader and he himself

should

> become his own ruler!

>

> Every human being has been given " CONSCIENCE " (Viveka) along with

> this human body. That conscience is our Guru. It never changes. It

> never tells us something that is inappropriate. It never agrees to

> our wrong doings - NEVER! It is our direct experience. Who then can

> be a better Guru than our own conscience, residing right within us?

>

> Jai Shree Krishna

>

> Vyas N B

> -

>

> Namaste....

>

> My respects to all in this sanga....I am writing in respect to the

question by

> Vyasa. Ramchandra...he asked what the Bhagavad Gita says in regard

to the need

> for a guru. I am guided by my diksha guru, and by my siksha guru,

to speak in

> answer to this question. It is truly nothing short of thievery if

a disciple

> presents what he has been given from his guru, and fails to

acknowledge his

> indebtedness toward the one who has given the knowledge.

>

> In the fourth chapter of the Gita, Transcendental Knowledge,

chapter 34, it is

> said, " tad viddhi pranipatena, pariprasnene sevaya, upadeksyanti

te jnanam,

> jnaninas tattva-darsinah " " Just try to learn the truth by

approaching a

> spiritual master. Inquire from him submissively and render service

unto him.

> The self-realized soul can impart knowledge unto you because he

has seen the

> truth. "

>

> Another pertinent quote is in the glorious Srimad

Bhagavatam....chapter eleven,

> canto three, verse 21. " tasmad gurum prapadyeta, jijnasuh sreya

uttamam, sabde

> pare ca nisnatam, brahmany upasamasrayam " Therefore, any person

who seriously

> desires real happiness must seek a bon fide spiritual master and

take shelter of

> him thru initiation. The qualification of a bona fide spiritual

master is that

> he has realized the conclusions of the scriptures

> by deliberation and is able to convince others of these

conclusions. Such great

> personalities, who have taken shelter of the Supreme Godhead,

leaving aside all

> material considerations, should be understood to be bona fide

spiritual

> masters " .

>

> There are so many individuals who may say that guru is not

necessary, but the

> words of the Gita and the Bhagavatam are from the Lord directly.

Sri Krsna says

> that a guru IS necessary. While I agree that it is true, Guru is

everywhere,

> until an individual comes to the realized platform, of seeing the

presence of

> God in everything, at every moment, a diksha guru is necessary to

begin the

> students progress, and to guide him to enter into bhajan of the

Lord.

>

> If someone is saying that initiation and guru is not important,

perhaps that is

> true for him/her, but it is cheating to say that this is the case

for

> everyone....we are not all on the same level. So, such an

individual, who is

> unaware of the needs of others, he himself must also be in need of

some

> instruction? A beginner on the path must be guided....and

ultimately, as each

> new level of awareness dawns on the student, the beauty of a truly

genuine

> student is that he/she always feels oneself to be a beginner,

though

> simultaneously that person knows within of his achievements. It is

said of an

> uttama (topmost) adhikari, that he has to come

> down to the level of a madhyama (intermediate) adhikari in order to

> preach.....as the uttama is seeing all souls acting perfectly, and

serving the

> Lord better than himself, due to his overwhelming and genuine

humility. In such

> a state, there is no need, no ability to preach to others. It is

this

> personality that we must seek out, one who is seeing within their

heart the

> loving pastimes of the Divine couple, Sri Sri Radha and Krsna. Not

everyone

> may want to worship that particular aspect of the divine, that is

individual

> rasa, but the true guru understands this individuality, and

doesn't force

> anything foreign on a disciple, as is the case with Anupama in the

Caitanya

> Caritamrtra.....he had sold his head at the feet of Lord

Ramachandra, and could

> not give his full-hearted devotion to Lord Caitanya. Lord Caitanya

glorified

> him for his love and blessed him.

>

> respectfully yours,

> Mahalaksmi Dasi

>

> -

>

> How can someone be directed towards the Divine when all that exists

> is the Divine?

> Where one is being directed FROM and directed TO is the same, it is

> the Divine only.

>

> Seeking is an impersonal action, it does not come from an

individual,

> it is the play of the Divine itself to lose sight of itself and

this

> then gives rise to the action of seeking. Seeking is an action

> arising from No-thing, there is no seeker. The seeker is the very

> illusion that is dispelled when all is seen to be the Divine only.

> Action arises as thinking and as sensation from No-thing, there is

no

> thinker, no individual producing the feeings that appear. There is

no

> individual. The concept that one is an individual continues as long

> as the seeking action arises, when it no longer arises it ceases

NOT

> because of an apparent individuals action but because the Divine

> simply no longer gives rise to the seeking action through that

> particular form. Nothing that the apparent individual does can

bring

> an end to the illusion of there being an individual. The action of

> seeking and the ceasation of it are grace.

>

> With Love avasa

>

> " Adrian Meyers "

>

> -

-

>

> I read an essay on guru-Sishya, an elaboration of a couplet from

> taittireeya upanishad, which goes like

>

> AcAryah poorva roopam, antEvAsyuttara roopam

> vidyA sandhih, pravacanam sandhAnam

>

> The author in elaborating this concept says that everything around

> us, whether a living being or otherwise, has the capacity of

> becoming a guru; that when one is ready to receive knowledge,

> everything around him becomes a Guru.

>

> Ramakrishna

> (Krishna Pillalamarri)

>

> -

-

>

> -Shri Hari-

>

> Rajendra J Bohra's down to earth no nonsense comment is one that I

> wholly agree with.

>

> Regarding Shakti that permeates existence, it is a force that is

> experienced, one does not need to believe in it, she can introduce

> herself, if the door to your soul is open. The burning desire for

> the truth is a key it seems. ( I will put in a question that was

asked, " Why so

> much pain " ), I am not sure but Gitaji 12:5 may explain, I read two

translations.

>

> People of the West as a rule, do not have the knowledge that is

> known in India, most people have never heard of the Bhagavad Gita,

and because

> of centuries of suppression of these matters they can fall into

pitfalls. But

> help is always at hand, Paramatma is true to all.

>

> There is a term that is finding popular usage, 'Tipping Point', it

is

> at that spiritual tipping point that the seeker steps forward

relying

> on Divine support, and it is their acknowledging and understand

that

> this IS sacred that will save them from harm. It is at this point

> that Gitaji 12:7 makes sense to me.

> Yes from then on Gurus appear, not necessarily one , circumstances

> can be confusing often bewildering. Some people say they do not

believe in

> coincidence, certainly too many things to be coincidence. The

Divine hand is

> clearly at work.

>

> With Respect and Divine Love,

>

> Mike

> (Mike Keenor)

>

>

>

> Loving Divine,

> Pranam.

> Thanks to all for the beautiful satsang, enjoyed it all. Whatever I

> am going to say is just a little addition to it. The fact is, most

> of us are very weak in our determination to attain Godhood because

> of the difficulties faced in detaching ourselves from the world.

> Also, we are very forgetful that all is God - vasudeva sarvam

> (including myself and others) & that is our biggest mistake/sin. So

> I believe that it is also ok to have a human being as our Guru who

> can constantly remind us of who we are, how can we remain in touch

> with The Truth, some do's and don'ts, strengthen our will, motivate

> us, until we reach that oneness. Guru-Shishya paramparaa is very

> sacred, those who have experienced it need no further explanation.

> I am very grateful to my Guru for everything. As stated already

> Guru-tatva (essence) is the same regardless from whom we learn, as

> long as we are conscious of learning from other sources, & yes,

> ultimately, it all comes from the same, one & only source -

> God/Bhrahman/Paramaatmaa!

>

> I don't remember an exact story that I heard from Baba, so if

> someone knows it please elaborate, it is about Guru-Shishya. Either

> Shri Ashtavakra in Guru's role asked King Janak or King Janak in

the

> role of Guru asked Shri Vyasji's son, first to give gurudakshina

> (offerings given by disciple to guru at the end of his/her study)

> before even the spiritual study began. The shishya was surprised

> and asked why gurudakshina first? Guru said that once the so called

> shishya attains self-realization, who is guru and who is shishya?

> From whom to collect gurudakshina? Guru and shishya become one &

> the same! So the point is, until we are not in touch with who we

> really are all is valid, but the minute we are self-realized, all

> separateness/differences dissolve!

>

> Shri Vyasji beautifully describes this point in BG Chapter 10 using

> actually Shri Krishna as his voice. Shri Krishna, [a human being,

> whom Arjun has accepted as his guru (BG 2:7), helps resolve Arjun's

> doubts (BG 18:73) in his spiritual journey], is addressed as

Bhagwan

> (BG 2:2), Mahaan - great soul (BG 18:74), Yogeshwar - great yogi

(BG

> 18:75/78) due to His attainment in spirituality. Shri Vyasji, a

> human being, is also addressed as Bhagwan, a great soul, due to his

> attainment in spirituality as well (BG 18:75). In BG 10:37, Vyasji

> using Krishna's voice indicates that there is no difference between

> him & Shri Krishna and there is no difference between Shri Krishna

&

> Arjun (still an ignorant). Chapter 10 really helps expand our

> horizon, brings us out of our limited mentality and frees us to be

> really how vast we are being children of God! But, like Arjun, we

> need to continue with our efforts, study scriptures, take help of

> guru/guide, do selfless act, follow all do's and don'ts, cultivate

> love, etc.; even though nothing is needed all is needed, until we

> truly understand who we are! Just prior to a moment of realization,

> all carry some value but as soon as it dawns (like when a switch is

> tuned on, darkness disappears immediately), all are dropped

> immediately, scriptures carry no meaning (BG 2:46), nothing remains

> to be done by I (selfless karma), the so difficult world just gets

> dropped (equanimity, peace), other than God nothing exist (true

> surrender), nothing remains to be said (Krishna-Arjun dialog ends).

> But until that aatma-gyaan is attained, one doesn't stop like

> Arjun!

>

> Even though we know we are all divine, children of the very same

> God, we forget and in this forgetfulness we continue to commit many

> mistakes. Baba says mistakes are not for mistakes, they are for

> correction. So let's correct the very basic mistake by remembering

> God in our daily activities, let's be conscious of who is

performing

> these activities hiding within our body & then let God lead us the

> way He wants us to lead.

>

> humble regards,

> always at Thy Holy Feet

>

> Manjula Patel

>

>

>

> In life, is it essential to have a Guru or not ? Please provide a

> clear answer that is based on the scriptures (mainly Gita). What

> has Gita written about need for Guru and Guru Parampara ?

>

> JINDAJI MAI GURU BANANA JARURI HAI YA NAAHI? ...SPASHT JAWAAB

DIJIYE

> GITA SE. GITA NE GURU BANANE KI JARURIYAAT AUR GURU PARAMAPARAA KE

> BAARE MEIN KYAA LIKHAA HAI

>

> vyas.ramchandra

>

>

>

>

> Re: Please Clarify Message on Real Seeker and His Quest for

Liberation

>

>

> Jai Shri Krishna,

>

> It is not necessary at all to establish Guru-Shishya (Teacher †"

> Student) relationship for progressing in the spiritual journey,

> instead our own intense curiosity, our own craving desire to

> liberate (Kalyaan) ONLY is extremely essential. Once a sadhak

> experiences such a craving desire for his Kalyaan, then he gets the

> requisite material for spiritual progress through Parmaatma's

> grace, through discourses of realized souls, through scriptures,

> through books, through any incidence or situation, through any

> atmosphere.

>

> There is a special force (Shakti) which is controlling the entire

> world. When man believes the existence of such Shakti, then he

> diverts towards Parmaatma. Then Parmaatma Himself destroys the

> ignorance of such a man (Gitaji 10:11) and Parmaatma frees such a

> man from the deathly sea of the world (Gitaji 12:7).

>

> From whomsoever one gets light (Prakaash), knowledge, his right

> path, his duty, his aim (Dhyeya), is Guru-Tatva. That Guru-Tatva is

> residing within everyone. Whosoever is instrumental in bringing out

> that Guru-Tatva should be considered Guru. Actually Parmaatma is

> everyone's Guru because everyone gets knowledge, light from Him

only.

>

> These days one should stay away from Gurus who force the Shishya to

> worship the Guru, chant their name, take care of their bodies,

> require them to have their leftover food and water etc. because

> there is a great possibility of being cheated by them, like Sitaji

> (wife of Lord Rama) from Demon Ravan disguised as a sage.

>

> A renowned doctor can not treat his son or wife, but calls another

> doctor. Why, because of his attachment (Moha, Mamta) to his family.

> Only an outside doctor, who is not attached can treat well.

> Similarly, only unattached, impartial Saints can impart knowledge.

> It is very sad that today's Gurus say that you become my

> Shishya (disciple) then I will give you good knowledge. Such Gurus

> are actually slaves of the Shishyas (disciples).

>

> Actually, one does not have to make Guru. Guru just becomes. Anyone

> who knows more than us is our Guru, whether we believe it or not.

>

> One does not have to search Guru. Just as when the fruit ripes, the

> parrot comes on its own. Similarly, you get ready for getting

> liberation, Guru will come automatically.

>

> A real Guru is one who diverts people towards Parmaatma instead of

> towards himself.

>

> " Krishnam Vande Jagatgurum "

>

> Narayana Narayana

>

> Rajendra J Bohra

>

>

>

> Re: Please Clarify Message on Real Seeker and His Quest for

Liberation

>

>

> Hari Om

>

> With reference to the message posted on the above subject and views

> of learned Saadhaks, I humbly submit that in this article Swamiji

> has described the momentum to which a saadhak reaches when the true

> longing/ desire in him arises for salvation/ realisation. As

rightly

> concluded by Guru Charanji and Chitra Sriniji, here the intention

is

> to reflect that a true seeker does not stop at anything once true

> longing/desire in him awakens. There are many other continuing

> examples given in the article to reflect this intention. You are

> right that Guru/ Shishya parampara ( Spiritual Master / Disciple

> tradition) is very pious and yielded great results in the past to

> the saadhaks and disciples. But then, now, in this Kaliyuga, we

find

> rather too many Gurus directing disciples more towards themselves

> rather than towards Paramatma (God) and we notice that quite often,

> a seeker finds himself empty handed in the end, many times even

> cheated. It is those type of Gurus which are referred in this

> Article - not real , desireless, egoless Gurus carrying traditions

> of olden times.

>

> As regards the observation of Adrian Meyers, let me state that even

> Swamiji on many occasions stated/written in his articles that there

> are situations when realisation can take place without having any

> previous interest or desire for it at all. Desire is a mean, not an

> end. Yes, there is only enlightenment, all are already divine, and

> in the end (at final stage) this desire to realise Paramatma also

> has to be relinquished by saadhak (Spiritual aspirant). You get

> Paramatma realisation ONLY when you are in a totally desire less

> mode. In fact, in the last speech of Swamiji, which was posted on

> this site during this month only (around 2nd/3rd July), there is a

> confirmation of the views of Adrian Meyers.

>

> But that does not mean that a spiritual aspirant should not desire

> for Paramatma at the beginning of his journey. It is a must.

> Nothing can replace the role of intense desire for Paramatma in

> realisation. JUST AS: When you reach door steps of a temple/ church

> etc, you relinquish/ leave your shoes, vehicle etc. outside only

> e.g. you leave the very means of reaching to temple outside, and go

> before the Paramatma deity all alone, SIMILARLY at the final stage

> of Paramatma Realisation you leave even the desire for realisation

> outside and go all alone - desireless! The fact that the element

> (Essence) is ever existing is undeniable and there is nothing in

the

> article which disputes this fact (rather there can never be a

denial

> of this fact in any article written by Swamiji). We ourselves

employ

> the word " REALISATION " and not " GETTING " , whenever we talk about

> salvation etc. It is a fact that the element is already received by

> us. It is realising/ discovering/ remembering an already available

> but forgotten thing. Hence there is no contradiction of any sort

> whatsoever in the concept

>

> Here the article was not on the Paramatma Realisation, the article

> was on the means thereof viz. intense desire, the momentum which an

> aspirant gathers in his journey, and the role of intense desire as

> well as Satsanga (good company). There is nothing wrong, therefore,

> in the article or in the translation. It is accurate, not an inch

> missing the mark, leave aside million miles or light years missing

> the mark. Not an inch in fact..

>

> Therefore, I would urge, in all humbleness to fellow aspirants to

> appreciate the fact that these short messages are picked from

> Swamiji's books and are translated from Hindi to English as it is.

> Many times the messages are chosen with reference to one subtle

> principle only and the moderator stops translating further and

hence

> the totality of the article gets limited/suffers a need for

> explanation. That then is a reflection on the translator ONLY and

on

> the space constraints regarding the size of message ONLY. In

reality

> the latter reason is more operative. However, the translation of

> this article, the text , tenor, intention is absolutely

blemishless.

> Please trust me, I am not moderator or translator, I am as good a

> fellow saadhak as are all others like Adrian or Guru Charanji.

>

> With sincere respects and divine regards to all fellow Saadhaks

>

> Jai Shree Krishna

>

> Vyas N B

>

>

> , " sadhak_insight "

> The statement you have made here misses the mark by a million

miles.

> It does not in any way take into account the fact that many come to

> realisation without having any previous interest OR desire for it

at

> all.

>

> There is ONLY enlightenment, all are already Divine, and the

seeking

> of this is the very thing that prevents the seeing of this fact.

> There is ONLY the Divine including that idea that there is other

> than the Divine.

> Avasa

> (Adrian Meyers)

> ----------------------------

>

> Namaskar,

>

> In your article you have mentioned that a sadhak having true

longing

> for his spiritual betterment will not last with a Guru if he is

> unable to attain salvation through Him.

>

> The above is totally in contradiction with the Guru-shishya

> parampara which Bharat is famous for. In fact if you take the

> history of many Saints including that of Adhishankaracharya

> (Gyanyogi) the role play of The Guru is what leads the Disciple

> towards ultimate liberation. It is in fact The Guru who chooses his

> Disciple and not the other way around.

>

> And once accepted by a Guru, The Disciple just obeys his Guru's

> advice and with The Guru's grace attains Gyan, Bhakthi and

> Vairagya. Guru's grace alone guides him in his further spiritual

> journey and leads him to Final liberation. (Mumukshatva)

>

> If a sadhak chooses to leave his Guru, it is not because of his

> intense yearning(tulmul) for liberation,(as you have explained) but

> only due to his high ego, with which he will never realise his aim

> of self realisation. A true sadhak gets guidance from his Guru,

even

> if the Guru has given away his gross body(sthula deha). Because the

> disciple does 'adhnyapalan " of his Guru's words and becomes more

and

> more introverted that the Nirgun Gurutatva starts guiding him from

> within. Ref (Path of Guru's Grace) vol-4 of Science of Spirituality

> published by Santan Sanstha.

>

> Please write your articles very clearly, without leaving room for

> misinterpretations. What you have really wanted to convey in your

> article is actually that a real seeker does not stop at anything

> until he reaches his goal. But the message below gives

> out a completely different meaning.

>

> Gratitude.

> Gurucharni.

> Chitra Srini

>

> -----------------------------

> [sadhaka] All That is Needed is Intense Longing for

> Salvation (July 12, 2008)

> sadhaka

> Saturday, July 12, 2008, 5:00 AM

>

> :Shree Hari:

>

> 12th July, 2008, Saturday

> Aashaad Shukla Navami, Vikram Samvat 2065, Shanivar

>

> A Sadhak (Spiritual Aspirant) who has a true longing for his

> spiritual betterment and salvation, will not last anywhere without

> attaining salvation. If he finds a Guru, but is unable to attain

> salvation through him, then he will not last with that Guru. If he

> becomes a sadhu (ascetic), but still does not attain salvation,

then

> there too he will not last long. If he joins an organization, there

> too he will not last. Until a hungry man, does not get food, how

> can he rest? If there is deep and intense longing for salvation,

> he will be unable to stay put anywhere. Staying put is simply not

> in his hands. He will stay rested, only where his deep spiritual

> longing is fulfilled.

>

> Out of great fortune and luck, one receives satsang (association

> with truth) - " Bade bhaag paayib satsangaa " (Manasa. Utter. 33:4).

> But in that same scripture (granth) that writes about great

fortune,

> it is also written, " Jehi ke Jehi per satya sanehu. So tehi

> milayee ne kachu sandehu. " (Manasa., Baal. 259:3). One who has a

> real and intense longing for spiritual truths, will certainly

> receive real satsang (association of good company, Truth).

>

> He who has a real longing for salvation, he will receive the

> opportunity for salvation and spiritual betterment - there is no

> doubt about it. In this matter, it is not about one's luck or

> fortune.

>

> In worldly matters such as acquisition of wealth, it is essential

to

> have three things.

> 1) Desire for wealth,

> 2) Effort to acquire the wealth and

> 3) Luck (fortune).

>

> But God Realization is possible by mere longing / desiring. This

> human body has been received for the purpose of God Realization. If

> God is not attained, than how did this human body in anyway, aid in

> achieving this aim and purpose? Thus, by giving up worldly desires,

> exclusively awaken within the inquiry into the Self (Atma) or

awaken

> within an intense longing for God Realization. In this is the

> success of human life.

>

> From " Mere Toh Giridhar Gopal, Dusero ne Koyi, " in Hindi pg 19 by

> Swami Ramsukhdasji Maharaj.

>

[Guest guest]

Jai Shri Krishna,

 

The issue actually is whether there is a need for Guru-Shishya

Parampara (Preceptor – Disciple Tradition).

 

As per Gitaji, there can be only two Gurus – Conscience (Viveka) or

Parmaatma.

 

Gitaji 6:5, 6:6 & 4:38 declare in no uncertain terms that Self only

can liberate Self. If Parmaatma has given us human birth, then he

has also given us sufficient material to realize Him. Hence, there

is no need of some one else (and some thing else) for realizing

Parmaatma. Actually, conscience, Parmaatma, Guru is present within

Self, but due to our attachment to the perishable, material world we

are unable to identify the same.

 

Gitaji does not espouse the idea of making Preceptor or Disciple.

One is Guru of himself and therefore, he has to give discourse to

himself. When all is Parmaatma (Vaasudevah Sarvam / 7:19), then who

will become Guru and to whom the discourses will be given.

`Uddharedatmnatmanam' (Gita 6:5) LITERALLY means instead of finding

mistakes in others, find our own mistakes and try to alleviate the

same.

 

Krishna confirms in Gita 3:23 that every one follows His path.

Parmaatma incarnates from time to time to teach man the way of

living in this world. Further, Krishna confirms that He only is the

Guru of all Demigods and all Great Sages, by all means (Gitaji

10:2). Arjuna also tells Krishna that You only are everyone's Guru

(Gitaji 11:37 and 11:43).

 

Therefore, a spiritual aspirant (Sadhak) does not have to search a

Guru. He simply has to consider Krishna as his Guru according

to `Krishnam Vande Jagatgurum' and pursue his Sadhana according to

Gitaji, which is Krishna's voice (Vaani), His hymn (Mantra). If he

will feel the necessity of some spiritual master from worldly point

of view then Krishna, Jagatguru, will make him meet the Guru;

because He says `Yogakshema Vahamiaham' in (Gitaji 9:22).

 

Krishnam Vande Jagatgurum.

 

Narayana Narayana

 

Rajendra J. Bohra

 

---

, " sadhak_insight "

<sadhak_insight wrote:

>

> Hari Om

>

> Oh , What a divine shape this deliberation has taken ! Satsanga,

and

> Group discussion has its own divinity ! Afterall, it is JNANA

YAGYA

> as per Gitaji.

>

> Gita - 4:34 can not be said to be confirming that Guru Shishya

> Parampara is mandatory or even necessary for SELF REALIZATION. Let

> us examine that:-

>

> " Learn that by your obeisance humble reverence , by questioning

and

> by your service : the wise who have realized the truth , will

> instruct thee , in that knowledge (jnana) "

>

> That is all 4:34 says. What does the preceptor do here? He can

> merely teach the disciple regarding the unreal world. In fact from

> the preceptor, a disciple does not gain knowledge about the self,

> but he gains knowledge about the world. When a striver comes to

know

> the truth about the unreal world, his affinity for the world , MAY

(

> depending upon the determination of striver and striver only) get

> renounced and he realizes the self, which is self evident.. The

> term " Upadekshyanti " (instruct) means, that the great souls

instruct

> a striver, (nothing more) but it is not necessary that he should

> attain self realization. Ultimately it is the FAITH which get you

> realization. Where has it been written that it is compulsory ?

> Entire world comes to the rescue and help of that person who has

> turned towards the Paramatma. Even Mother Nature becomes

especially

> inclined to help such person. Each and everything which happens in

> his life becomes his Guru. The Law of Karma accelerates to destroy

> all his past sins in a super fast manner. Grace of Paramatma

starts

> giving him the way. Gurus start coming to him as if guided by a

> natural force. Rishi Dattatreya, as per Bhagavatam, counted 24

Gurus

> from whom he received knowledge, without these 24 people (

including

> a prostitute, some animals also) even knowing that some one has

> considered them to be Guru ! That is what is element called Guru..

>

> The same Lord therefore in the same Gita, in the same Chapter 4

also

> tells to the same Arjuna that :-

>

> " Verily, nothing purifies in this world, like knowledge (jnana).

He

> who has been perfected in Yoga fully finds it AUTOMATICALLY and

> POSITIVELY in the SELF " (Gita 4:38)

>

> Here the words employed should be read carefully. Here Lord

declares

> that a Karma Yogi having become perfected in Yoga, gains this

> knowledge POSITIVELY (assuredly). The term " kalena " used in this

> verse, needs special attention. The Lord has used the third

> inflexion, which means that through Karma Yoga, one certainly

gains

> knowledge of the SELF, or realizes Paramatma. The term " svayam "

> (self generated), shows that a Yogi gains the knowledge of the

self,

> while performing his duty, without the guidance of a Guru, or the

> scriptures or any other means. AUTOMATIC ! Leave aside , Guru -

even

> accepting the existence element called " Paramatma " is not

necessary

> in Self realization through the paths of Karma Yoga and Jnana

Yoga.

> It is not necessary at all! That is the justice of Paramatma. That

> is the grace of Paramatma. That is the power of SELF.

>

> Now let us come to Arjuna's uttering of the word " shishya " in 2:7.

> Here he also stated that " I surrender to you " . At that point

Arjuna

> was too blind, too grief stricken to talk sense at all. I have

> constraints of space, otherwise I can give a whole list of what

> Arjuna told to Krishna upto this verse and how Krishna ruthlessly

> proved him not only wrong but proved that he was talking just

> reverse of what was reality. (If some sadhak is interested, he can

> post a question) It was the stupidity of Arjuna that made Krishna

> laugh freely and then started the real Gita. Stupidity – because

on

> one hand Arjuna said that I surrender to you. On other hand in the

> very next verse and in 2:9, he said " I will not fight " . Now one

who

> surrenders, does he get right to say so ? No ! If you read 18:66

> which sets the definition of surrender - categorical No ! In 2:7

> itself Arjuna tells " I Surrender and now teach me " . This is not

the

> principle of surrender. Once you have surrendered, whether Krishna

> teaches you, or does not teach you, is not your prerogative at

all.

> Hence 2:7 neither establishes Guru Shishya parampara nor

establishes

> principles of surrender. It was a grief stricken Arjuna, uttering

> sense lessly the words which came to his mind - making Krishna

> laugh ! ! Krishna never accepted " preceptorship " vis a vis

Arjuna !

> He in fact later on called him to be his friend - which was how

> Krishna took the relationship. In fact as late as upto verse 18:59

> Krishna did not believe Arjuna to be either disciple or

surrendered.

>

> There is no need of a Guru even for renouncing the affinity with

the

> world. Use of conscience is more than enough. If we just respect

our

> conscience, keep doing our duties in the world and remember always

> that we do not belong to this world, we in due course of time will

> get automatically liberated. Nothing else is needed. Had it been

in

> the hands of Saints and Sages, the world would not have been in

the

> shape it is today. A great Paramatma realized soul wants entire

> humanity to get liberated. But is the SELF and SELF alone who has

to

> initiate and get initiated. Consider the example of EKLAVYA. He

took

> the Guru Tattwa (Element) not the body made of bones and flesh.

Even

> Lord Krishna could not liberate the entire humanity when He

> incarnated. You, yourself, have to be willing. What a Guru can do,

> unless the disciple is accepting him?. There is Guru already

sitting

> in you, CONSCIENCE. If some body cares to find out what

> characteristics the person to be called as " preceptor " / Guru

should

> possess in order to fall with in the ambit of Gita 4:34, one will

> perhaps have to spend whole life only in finding and locating him.

> In this yuga it will be very difficult to find him. Paramatma

cannot

> be that arbitrary, to provide that who ever finds such a great

soul

> only can realize me, and no body else. The element called Guru

> becomes essential only if there is an express provision in the

> Scriptures to that effect. There is Guru element in everything,

even

> in a stone, even in a mountain if one has faith.

>

> Jai Shree Krishna

>

> Vyas N B

>

>

> -

--

> , " sadhak_insight "

> <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> >

> > -Shree Hari-

> >

> > I think there can be trouble in translation, and these

> > interpretations can be coloured by the interpreters inner

beliefs.

> > Looking at two different sources in English Translation A & B :

> >

> > Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master.

> > Inquire from him submissively and render service unto him. The

> self-

> > realized souls can impart knowledge unto you because they have

seen

> > the truth. [4.34](Trans.A)

> >

> > Know that by long prostration, by question and by service, the

wise

> > who have realised the Truth will instruct you in (that)

> > knowledge.[4.34](Trans.B)

> >

> > As all surrender unto Me, I reward them accordingly. Everyone

> follows

> > My path in all respects, O son of Pritha. [4.11(Trans.A)]

> >

> > In whatever way men approach me, even so do I reward them; my

path

> do

> > men tread in all ways, Arjuna![4.11(Trans.B)]

> >

> > But note :

> > One must deliver himself with the help of his mind, and not

degrade

> > himself. The mind is the friend of the conditioned soul, and his

> > enemy as well. [6.5](Trans.A)(I have a problem with mind, self

> seems

> > more appropriate).

> >

> > Let a man lift himself by his own Self alone; let him not lower

> > himself, for this self alone is the friend of oneself and this

self

> > alone is the enemy of oneself.6.5](Trans.B)

> >

> > Without being overly pedantic B.G. 6.5 Translation A & B are in

> clear

> > agreement. I also read this as a directive.

> >

> > However there seems to be a greyness between A & B in B.G. 4.34,

but

> > what is clear to me is Krishna is not pointing to a single

> > Guru,(Especially translation B) I would take this to be advice

> > given.(Just try.../ Know that..).

> >

> > As for B.G. 4.11 , I read that all humanity will come to

Krishna

> by

> > their own chosen path.

> >

> > Beyond this is experience, to me that is the final litmus test to

> > clarify the mind.

> >

> > With Respect and Divine Love.

> >

> > Mike

> > (Mike Keenor)

> > --------------------------------

-

> > Shree Hari

> > Ram Ram

> >

> > Swamiji has conveyed some very key messages regarding the

subject,

> > many have been covered, yet I will attempt to summarize a few

> points, by His grace -

> >

> > 1) If you accept God as Guru, your work is completed. In God,

you

> > will receive everything.

> >

> > 2) Swamiji says that Gita 4:34 is not indicating that you must

> > engage in a formal Guru - Disciple relationship and receive

formal

> > initiation. When one goes to a realized, great Soul, prostrates

at

> > his feet (surrenders to him), does all activities according to

his

> > instructions, and expresses one's keen quest and inquiry into the

> > essential nature, then the Guru (tattva), will instruct the

> aspirant in the essential knowledge of Truth, without even

engaging

> in a formal Guru-Disciple relation.

> >

> > 3) Liberation is from one's own inner and intense longing, not

by

> making someone a Guru. Until that deep longing, that intensity,

that

> quest for salvation is not awakened within one's self, till that

> time, even God Himself cannot free one, then how will a Guru be

able

> to do so ?

> >

> > 4) Great Souls come in to this world, to bring human beings

close

> to

> > God, not to get people attracted to and involved in themselves

> > instead. One who attracts others towards himself (to worship

him,

> to

> > meditate on him etc) is a deceitful imposter.

> >

> > 5) Guru is the essence (tattva, element), Guru is not a human

> > being. To see a Guru in a human being and to see a human being

in a

> > Guru is a crime.

> >

> > 6) A great soul is never restricted to the body, therefore why

the

> > worship of the physical aspects? As far as possible one must stay

> > far away from and escape safely away from one who gets others to

> > worship him, meditate on body made of flesh and bones, recite

his

> name, eating his leftover morsels, etc. etc., because in this

there

> is a great likelihood of being cheated and these things becoming

an

> obstacle in worship of God. One should worship the form of God

> alone, one must meditate on God alone, one must make an offering

of

> food to God alone.

> >

> > 7) As stated in the scriptures - " Uma Ram sum hit jag naahi;

Guru

> pitu maatu bandhu prabhu naahi. "

> > " In this Universe their is no one, neither Guru (teacher), nor

> > father, nor mother, nor brother who is our well-wisher, as God

is. "

> >

> > 8) God, even though being a Universal Guru, does not make anyone

> > his disciple (chela). He only makes them his comrade and friend.

> > Arjun is only accepting His guidance. It is his reverence for

Shri

> Krishna that makes him say he is a sishya.. but Krishna does not

say

> that you are my formal chella... Shri Krishna - Arjun dialogue did

> not require a formal initiation or Guru-disciple relationship to

> receive guidance.

> >

> > Other points -

> >

> > 9) Those Gurus that have desire to make disciples can never ever

> > become Gurus.

> >

> > 10) Individuals that transact or trade their teachings are not

> real Gurus. Those that say - first become my disciple (student),

> then I will reveal to you the path towards God Realization, are

like

> traders of God and an item traded is of less value than the listed

> price.

> >

> > 11) It is a sad thing that on becoming a disciple, one becomes

> > allured, develops attachment, and when this delusion sets

> > in, both guru and disciple take a fall - " Guru Lobhi, Shishya

> > Laalchi, dono khele daav Dono dooba parasram, baith patther ki

> naav. "

> >

> > 12) Particularly for a devotee who has taken refuge in God

> (sharanagat bhakta), God Himself takes care of all the needs of

the

> devotee including spiritual upliftment and liberation. Gita 4:34

> only is in reference to a seeker of knowledge, not a devotee who

has

> taken refuge in God. The Bhakti yoga chapters are Ch 7-12 do not

> address this subject at all.

> >

> > 13) Please think about this. " Krishnam Vande Jagatgurum. " God is

> the

> > Guru of this entire Universe and you are in this Universe. Lord

> > Krishna's mantra is - " Bhagavad Gita " . Contemplate on the Gita

and

> > live by it, and attain salvation.

> >

> > There is so much more on this subject... in light of the group's

> > guidelines, I will stop here.

> >

> > Meera das

> > Ram Ram

> >

> > --------------------------------

-

> > Loving Divine,

> > Pranam.

> >

> > This email is in response to the need for a Guru. As I have

> > indicated before & many others have also listed that the Guru-

> tattva

> > (essense) is one & the same in all then why this big fuss about

not

> > having human guru? Whether we learn from bird, animal, sky,

earth,

> > human or any creature, what difference does it make, after all

> guru-

> > tattva is the same, isn't it? Everything flows from the same

> source

> > so everything in this creation is capable of teaching us

something.

> > We are not conscious of ourselves & surroundings around us but we

> > are not completely unaware or ignorant either. We all learn

> > differently - some learn by listening or looking or touching or

> > experimenting - all senses are involved or one can also learn

just

> > by silencing their senses, etc. So when we have a teacher to

teach

> > us various subjects why not to teach spirituality, the most

> > essential of all subjects of our life? I wanted to clarify some

> > misunderstanding people have. Guru is a must regardless in which

> > form it comes but relationship with that form is dangerous! Do

you

> > understand what I am trying to say? For us to feel comfortable

in

> > our learning, we may establish relationship and that is ok too

but

> > to remain attached to it is the problem. Please understand the

> > subtleties of this aspect. I think when I read Swamiji's

message,

> I

> > felt his whole concern is people leaving their families to break-

> off

> > relationships and they establish another relationship (as they

just

> > can't truly drop the relationship) with their guru (another form)

> > and between these 2 relationships, there is no difference. One

is

> > still attached. All relationships need to be dropped, including

> > guru-disciple and it happens only when guru-disciple become one

and

> > the same. If only one exist where is relationship? In physical

> > relationships we are bound but when the learning happens without

> > this bondage, it is just a pure learning and when one is at this

> > level, one is learning from all creation, not just human guru.

> >

> > Shri Ramkrishna Paramhamsa had Totapuri as his guru to lead him

to

> > his final formless stage. Lord Rama had 2 human gurus - Shri

> > Valmiki and Sage Vashishtha. Shri Krishna had 3 human Gurus in

His

> > life - Gargaachaarya (kul-guru), Rishi Sandipani (in whose

> > ashram/hermitage He stayed from childhood), and Sage Ghor Angiras

> > (Yoga/Spiritual Guru). So now tell me if Krishna had 3 human

> gurus,

> > how can He oppose having a Guru??? There are events listed of

Rama

> > & Krishna serving (physically) their gurus with their utmost love

> > and reverence and thus acquiring all vidya (knowledge). In BG

2:7,

> > Arjun says guide me I am your shishya. BG 3:34-36, Lord says

serve

> > gyaani (one who knows The Truth). BG 4:1, Bhagwan talks about

> > teaching karma yoga to Sun to Manu to Ikshvaku. In BG4:2, He

also

> > mentions about this (guru-shishya) being a Paramparaa. In BG

4:3,

> > He says I am telling you this yoga because you are my friend and

> > devotee (bhakta). True guru will not say that I am your guru.

In

> > BG 11:43, Arjun is finally capable of understanding the guru-

tattva

> > within his friend Krisha then he says that Krishana, the formless

> > one, is the greatest Guru. Behine every creation or form,

Krishna

> > (formless) is there (vasudev sarvam), that's why every thing is

> > capable of teaching us and we are capable of learning so instead

of

> > condemning one way vs. other, just accept that we all learn

> > differently, we all are at different level of learning, and we

all

> > are at different pace of learning, then one will understand that

> any

> > and every way of leaning is coming from one and only one source.

> >

> > Some questions have been raised in past about guru being mean or

> > greedy and what not... Lord defines in Gitaji who is true

gyaani,

> > serving whom one can attain the Truth. Other scriptures also

> > describe how to know who is the true guru. In past email we have

> > discussed this subject, may be one can perform search in gita-

talk

> > archieves. However, I have some questions:

> > If by listening to guru my attachment to money, family, food,

> > physical pleasure, etc. doesn't go away, what shall the true

guru

> do

> > so that such attachments get dropped?

> > if I am not curbing my anger or greed even though I know it is

bad

> > for me and others, what shall the true guru do?

> > if my emotions are coming in my way or my relationships are the

> > hurdle or my emotions/attitude are blocking my path or my ego is

> > just blinding me from evolving, what shall the true guru do to

> clear

> > out the path?

> > What are the options available to true guru to teach me whatever

I

> > needed to learn to evolve in my spiritual path and attain the

> > ultimate goal of my life?

> > Please think and answer to the above. If you can answer them

> > honestly looking from guru's perspective, you will be able to

> > understand some of the behavior of guru then you will be

grateful

> to

> > guru for what he does for you than condemning him. Baba says if

> you

> > are attached with the workings of body and mind, your own

> negativity

> > is reflected in other people, environment or the world around

you.

> >

> > Hope this helps...

> > humble regards,

> > always at Thy Holy Feet

> >

> > --------------------------------

--

> > --------------------------------

--

> > ALL PREVIOUS MESSAGES

> > Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

> >

> > A sadhaka asks a question: In life, is it essential to have a

Guru

> > or not?

> >

> > I would say if this question keeps arising to a sadhaka, then

> answer

> > is " YES " .

> >

> > Guru means " that " whatever that instills the quest in us to

pursue

> > with untiring energy to find out what we are. That which turns

our

> > mind inward by pushing us from outside until we feel the pull

from

> > inside to discover our essence!

> >

> > The best thing I have found is to just burn with the longing to

> know

> > truth to the extent that no price is ever greater than discovery

of

> > truth of oneself( Note:Truth of oneself and not truth about

> > oneself).

> >

> > To be a disciple, one needs to develop complete humility which

will

> > open up one's mind to watch, listen, hear and contemplate. This

> will

> > bring all that we need home. All of a sudden one may find that

one

> > is drawn to someone whose presence and words have magical quality

> > taking one to unknown dimension! His/Her answers bring

satisfaction

> > never found before even through the scriptures, peace unknown,

and

> > joy that knows no cause! One's whole being may cry out " yes, yes,

> > this is what I have been waiting " .

> >

> > Recognizing such inner voice is of utmost importance at this

time.

> > Responding to such directions appropriately happens

spontaneously,

> > inspite of us. At this point, sadhakas, just know that you have

the

> > Guru! A Guru is born in our heart right then and there!

> >

> > Such a non-individual in the form of apparant individual becomes

> the

> > mouthpiece of God to announce God's glory and thus become a

channel

> > between us and God to remove our darkness and lead us to light

> > ultimately! Why channel, because experience of God is beyond mind

> > and intellect!

> >

> > Thus I don't hesitate to say, the best resource to realization is

> > hearing the truth from the lips of your Guru. Scriptures and

> > everything else are the next best!

> >

> > Namaskars, Pratap

> >

> > (Pratap Bhatt)

> > --------------------------------

--

> -

> >

> > Dear readers,

> >

> > om ojnana timirandasya, jnana jnana salakaya,

> > caksur unmilitam yena, tasmai sri gurave namah

> >

> > " I was born in the darkest ignorance, and my spiritual master

> opened

> > my eyes with the torchlight of knowledge. I offer my humble

> > obeisances unto him " .

> >

> > In the words below, our friend has tried to point out that

> men/women

> > do not need guru. Personally, I cannot see how anyone can come to

> > such a conclusion....even to learn how to do simple things in

this

> > world, such as to become proficient in book-keeping, to learn the

> > art of cooking, electricity, etc....any art or science, one must

> > approach a teacher. Even if one says he learnt from a book,

still,

> > a person has written the book. If there was no need for guru,

then

> > it would be so easy for everyone in Kali yuga to come to the

level

> > of those high-minded saints that existed in previous yugas. Do we

> > see this happening? And in truth, aren't the symptoms of Kali

> > become worse and worse? Intoxiication, gambling, meat-eating, and

> > prostitution are rampant everywhere, even in the most gentle,

clean

> > communities, one can still find it all either by the television

or

> > online.

> >

> > One who is himself coming from the transcendental world can look

> > into the heart of a disciple and perceive the deficiency in the

> > heart, so that the disciple may come to a level of spiritual

> > awareness. The lessons taught by guru can be painful, if the

> > sadhaka is attached to worldly things such as prestige, money,

> > power, etc. Due to the nature of pratistha, the desire for fame,

> > these anarthas are not always visible to the jiva. So, without

the

> > help of guru, one may go on, life time after life time, thinking

> > oneself so pure and advanced.

> >

> > This in itself is an illusion, for the pure soul is always

> > introspective and striving for purity, not complacent with a

sense

> > of, " I am so pure. " It is conveyed throughout the Gita that

Arjuna

> > is confused, bewildered, and playing the role of a disciple, FOR

> OUR

> > BENEFIT. If there was no need of the guru/disciple relationship,

> > why did Arjuna present himself as a bewildered jiva

> > chapter two, verse 7.... " now I am confused about my duty and have

> > lost all composure because of weakness. In this condition I am

> > asking You to tell me clearly what is best for me. Now I am

> > Your disciple and a soul surrendered unto You. Please instruct

> > me. " ? The entire Gita is presented to bring Arjun to the point of

> > executing his duty for the satisfaction of Lord Sri Krsna, not to

> > tell him to live life by whatever he feels in his heart. Illusion

> > must be broken by one free from illusion.

> >

> > Respectfully,

> >

> > Mahalaksmi Dasi

> >

> > Hari Om

> >

> > A Saadhak has asked question – " Is it essential to have Guru or

> > not? " . He has sought Gita views on the subject.

> >

> > If one reads carefully Gita (say 6:5, 6:6) , it is abundantly

clear

> > that it is not the principle d by Gita that one should

> > become Guru or disciple. It is very clear.

> >

> > Gita 6:5 reads as under:-

> >

> > " Let a man emancipate himself by his own self; and not degrade

> > himself; for he himself is his friend, as well as, his enemy.

> >

> > Gita 6:6 reads as under:-

> >

> > " To him, who has conquered his self by himself, his own self is a

> > friend : but to him who has not conquered the self, his own self

> > acts as his foe. "

> >

> > Initiation (initiating or being initiated) is not the principle

of

> > the Gita. A man is his own preceptor, therefore he has to know,

> > learn, and imbibe in the teachings the gospel by his own self.

When

> > all is Paramatma (VASUDEVAH SARVAM), then who except Paramatma

is a

> > preceptor ! (KRISHNAM VANDE JAGADGURUM - Krishna is Guru of

entire

> > world). Who will reveal the gospel and to whom will he reveal it?

> >

> > Therefore, instead of perceiving defects in others, a man should

> > perceive defects in his own self and try to get rid of them and

> > teach the gospel to himself. He himself should become his own

> > preceptor, he himself should become his leader and he himself

> should

> > become his own ruler!

> >

> > Every human being has been given " CONSCIENCE " (Viveka) along with

> > this human body. That conscience is our Guru. It never changes.

It

> > never tells us something that is inappropriate. It never agrees

to

> > our wrong doings - NEVER! It is our direct experience. Who then

can

> > be a better Guru than our own conscience, residing right within

us?

> >

> > Jai Shree Krishna

> >

> > Vyas N B

> > --------------------------------

--

> >

> > Namaste....

> >

> > My respects to all in this sanga....I am writing in respect to

the

> question by

> > Vyasa. Ramchandra...he asked what the Bhagavad Gita says in

regard

> to the need

> > for a guru. I am guided by my diksha guru, and by my siksha

guru,

> to speak in

> > answer to this question. It is truly nothing short of thievery

if

> a disciple

> > presents what he has been given from his guru, and fails to

> acknowledge his

> > indebtedness toward the one who has given the knowledge.

> >

> > In the fourth chapter of the Gita, Transcendental Knowledge,

> chapter 34, it is

> > said, " tad viddhi pranipatena, pariprasnene sevaya, upadeksyanti

> te jnanam,

> > jnaninas tattva-darsinah " " Just try to learn the truth by

> approaching a

> > spiritual master. Inquire from him submissively and render

service

> unto him.

> > The self-realized soul can impart knowledge unto you because he

> has seen the

> > truth. "

> >

> > Another pertinent quote is in the glorious Srimad

> Bhagavatam....chapter eleven,

> > canto three, verse 21. " tasmad gurum prapadyeta, jijnasuh sreya

> uttamam, sabde

> > pare ca nisnatam, brahmany upasamasrayam " Therefore, any person

> who seriously

> > desires real happiness must seek a bon fide spiritual master and

> take shelter of

> > him thru initiation. The qualification of a bona fide spiritual

> master is that

> > he has realized the conclusions of the scriptures

> > by deliberation and is able to convince others of these

> conclusions. Such great

> > personalities, who have taken shelter of the Supreme Godhead,

> leaving aside all

> > material considerations, should be understood to be bona fide

> spiritual

> > masters " .

> >

> > There are so many individuals who may say that guru is not

> necessary, but the

> > words of the Gita and the Bhagavatam are from the Lord directly.

> Sri Krsna says

> > that a guru IS necessary. While I agree that it is true, Guru is

> everywhere,

> > until an individual comes to the realized platform, of seeing

the

> presence of

> > God in everything, at every moment, a diksha guru is necessary

to

> begin the

> > students progress, and to guide him to enter into bhajan of the

> Lord.

> >

> > If someone is saying that initiation and guru is not important,

> perhaps that is

> > true for him/her, but it is cheating to say that this is the

case

> for

> > everyone....we are not all on the same level. So, such an

> individual, who is

> > unaware of the needs of others, he himself must also be in need

of

> some

> > instruction? A beginner on the path must be guided....and

> ultimately, as each

> > new level of awareness dawns on the student, the beauty of a

truly

> genuine

> > student is that he/she always feels oneself to be a beginner,

> though

> > simultaneously that person knows within of his achievements. It

is

> said of an

> > uttama (topmost) adhikari, that he has to come

> > down to the level of a madhyama (intermediate) adhikari in order

to

> > preach.....as the uttama is seeing all souls acting perfectly,

and

> serving the

> > Lord better than himself, due to his overwhelming and genuine

> humility. In such

> > a state, there is no need, no ability to preach to others. It is

> this

> > personality that we must seek out, one who is seeing within

their

> heart the

> > loving pastimes of the Divine couple, Sri Sri Radha and Krsna.

Not

> everyone

> > may want to worship that particular aspect of the divine, that

is

> individual

> > rasa, but the true guru understands this individuality, and

> doesn't force

> > anything foreign on a disciple, as is the case with Anupama in

the

> Caitanya

> > Caritamrtra.....he had sold his head at the feet of Lord

> Ramachandra, and could

> > not give his full-hearted devotion to Lord Caitanya. Lord

Caitanya

> glorified

> > him for his love and blessed him.

> >

> > respectfully yours,

> > Mahalaksmi Dasi

> >

> > --------------------------------

--

> >

> > How can someone be directed towards the Divine when all that

exists

> > is the Divine?

> > Where one is being directed FROM and directed TO is the same, it

is

> > the Divine only.

> >

> > Seeking is an impersonal action, it does not come from an

> individual,

> > it is the play of the Divine itself to lose sight of itself and

> this

> > then gives rise to the action of seeking. Seeking is an action

> > arising from No-thing, there is no seeker. The seeker is the very

> > illusion that is dispelled when all is seen to be the Divine

only.

> > Action arises as thinking and as sensation from No-thing, there

is

> no

> > thinker, no individual producing the feeings that appear. There

is

> no

> > individual. The concept that one is an individual continues as

long

> > as the seeking action arises, when it no longer arises it ceases

> NOT

> > because of an apparent individuals action but because the Divine

> > simply no longer gives rise to the seeking action through that

> > particular form. Nothing that the apparent individual does can

> bring

> > an end to the illusion of there being an individual. The action

of

> > seeking and the ceasation of it are grace.

> >

> > With Love avasa

> >

> > " Adrian Meyers "

> >

> > --------------------------------

--

> -

> >

> > I read an essay on guru-Sishya, an elaboration of a couplet from

> > taittireeya upanishad, which goes like

> >

> > AcAryah poorva roopam, antEvAsyuttara roopam

> > vidyA sandhih, pravacanam sandhAnam

> >

> > The author in elaborating this concept says that everything

around

> > us, whether a living being or otherwise, has the capacity of

> > becoming a guru; that when one is ready to receive knowledge,

> > everything around him becomes a Guru.

> >

> > Ramakrishna

> > (Krishna Pillalamarri)

> >

> > --------------------------------

--

> -

> >

> > -Shri Hari-

> >

> > Rajendra J Bohra's down to earth no nonsense comment is one that

I

> > wholly agree with.

> >

> > Regarding Shakti that permeates existence, it is a force that is

> > experienced, one does not need to believe in it, she can

introduce

> > herself, if the door to your soul is open. The burning desire for

> > the truth is a key it seems. ( I will put in a question that was

> asked, " Why so

> > much pain " ), I am not sure but Gitaji 12:5 may explain, I read

two

> translations.

> >

> > People of the West as a rule, do not have the knowledge that is

> > known in India, most people have never heard of the Bhagavad

Gita,

> and because

> > of centuries of suppression of these matters they can fall into

> pitfalls. But

> > help is always at hand, Paramatma is true to all.

> >

> > There is a term that is finding popular usage, 'Tipping Point',

it

> is

> > at that spiritual tipping point that the seeker steps forward

> relying

> > on Divine support, and it is their acknowledging and understand

> that

> > this IS sacred that will save them from harm. It is at this point

> > that Gitaji 12:7 makes sense to me.

> > Yes from then on Gurus appear, not necessarily one ,

circumstances

> > can be confusing often bewildering. Some people say they do not

> believe in

> > coincidence, certainly too many things to be coincidence. The

> Divine hand is

> > clearly at work.

> >

> > With Respect and Divine Love,

> >

> > Mike

> > (Mike Keenor)

> >

> > --------------------------------

-

> >

> > Loving Divine,

> > Pranam.

> > Thanks to all for the beautiful satsang, enjoyed it all.

Whatever I

> > am going to say is just a little addition to it. The fact is,

most

> > of us are very weak in our determination to attain Godhood

because

> > of the difficulties faced in detaching ourselves from the world.

> > Also, we are very forgetful that all is God - vasudeva sarvam

> > (including myself and others) & that is our biggest mistake/sin.

So

> > I believe that it is also ok to have a human being as our Guru

who

> > can constantly remind us of who we are, how can we remain in

touch

> > with The Truth, some do's and don'ts, strengthen our will,

motivate

> > us, until we reach that oneness. Guru-Shishya paramparaa is very

> > sacred, those who have experienced it need no further

explanation.

> > I am very grateful to my Guru for everything. As stated already

> > Guru-tatva (essence) is the same regardless from whom we learn,

as

> > long as we are conscious of learning from other sources, & yes,

> > ultimately, it all comes from the same, one & only source -

> > God/Bhrahman/Paramaatmaa!

> >

> > I don't remember an exact story that I heard from Baba, so if

> > someone knows it please elaborate, it is about Guru-Shishya.

Either

> > Shri Ashtavakra in Guru's role asked King Janak or King Janak in

> the

> > role of Guru asked Shri Vyasji's son, first to give gurudakshina

> > (offerings given by disciple to guru at the end of his/her study)

> > before even the spiritual study began. The shishya was surprised

> > and asked why gurudakshina first? Guru said that once the so

called

> > shishya attains self-realization, who is guru and who is shishya?

> > From whom to collect gurudakshina? Guru and shishya become one &

> > the same! So the point is, until we are not in touch with who we

> > really are all is valid, but the minute we are self-realized, all

> > separateness/differences dissolve!

> >

> > Shri Vyasji beautifully describes this point in BG Chapter 10

using

> > actually Shri Krishna as his voice. Shri Krishna, [a human being,

> > whom Arjun has accepted as his guru (BG 2:7), helps resolve

Arjun's

> > doubts (BG 18:73) in his spiritual journey], is addressed as

> Bhagwan

> > (BG 2:2), Mahaan - great soul (BG 18:74), Yogeshwar - great yogi

> (BG

> > 18:75/78) due to His attainment in spirituality. Shri Vyasji, a

> > human being, is also addressed as Bhagwan, a great soul, due to

his

> > attainment in spirituality as well (BG 18:75). In BG 10:37,

Vyasji

> > using Krishna's voice indicates that there is no difference

between

> > him & Shri Krishna and there is no difference between Shri

Krishna

> &

> > Arjun (still an ignorant). Chapter 10 really helps expand our

> > horizon, brings us out of our limited mentality and frees us to

be

> > really how vast we are being children of God! But, like Arjun, we

> > need to continue with our efforts, study scriptures, take help of

> > guru/guide, do selfless act, follow all do's and don'ts,

cultivate

> > love, etc.; even though nothing is needed all is needed, until we

> > truly understand who we are! Just prior to a moment of

realization,

> > all carry some value but as soon as it dawns (like when a switch

is

> > tuned on, darkness disappears immediately), all are dropped

> > immediately, scriptures carry no meaning (BG 2:46), nothing

remains

> > to be done by I (selfless karma), the so difficult world just

gets

> > dropped (equanimity, peace), other than God nothing exist (true

> > surrender), nothing remains to be said (Krishna-Arjun dialog

ends).

> > But until that aatma-gyaan is attained, one doesn't stop like

> > Arjun!

> >

> > Even though we know we are all divine, children of the very same

> > God, we forget and in this forgetfulness we continue to commit

many

> > mistakes. Baba says mistakes are not for mistakes, they are for

> > correction. So let's correct the very basic mistake by

remembering

> > God in our daily activities, let's be conscious of who is

> performing

> > these activities hiding within our body & then let God lead us

the

> > way He wants us to lead.

> >

> > humble regards,

> > always at Thy Holy Feet

> >

> > Manjula Patel

> >

> > --------------------------------

-

> >

> > In life, is it essential to have a Guru or not ? Please provide a

> > clear answer that is based on the scriptures (mainly Gita). What

> > has Gita written about need for Guru and Guru Parampara ?

> >

> > JINDAJI MAI GURU BANANA JARURI HAI YA NAAHI? ...SPASHT JAWAAB

> DIJIYE

> > GITA SE. GITA NE GURU BANANE KI JARURIYAAT AUR GURU PARAMAPARAA

KE

> > BAARE MEIN KYAA LIKHAA HAI

> >

> > vyas.ramchandra

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Re: Please Clarify Message on Real Seeker and His Quest for

> Liberation

> >

> >

> > Jai Shri Krishna,

> >

> > It is not necessary at all to establish Guru-Shishya (Teacher †"

> > Student) relationship for progressing in the spiritual journey,

> > instead our own intense curiosity, our own craving desire to

> > liberate (Kalyaan) ONLY is extremely essential. Once a sadhak

> > experiences such a craving desire for his Kalyaan, then he gets

the

> > requisite material for spiritual progress through Parmaatma's

> > grace, through discourses of realized souls, through scriptures,

> > through books, through any incidence or situation, through any

> > atmosphere.

> >

> > There is a special force (Shakti) which is controlling the entire

> > world. When man believes the existence of such Shakti, then he

> > diverts towards Parmaatma. Then Parmaatma Himself destroys the

> > ignorance of such a man (Gitaji 10:11) and Parmaatma frees such a

> > man from the deathly sea of the world (Gitaji 12:7).

> >

> > From whomsoever one gets light (Prakaash), knowledge, his right

> > path, his duty, his aim (Dhyeya), is Guru-Tatva. That Guru-Tatva

is

> > residing within everyone. Whosoever is instrumental in bringing

out

> > that Guru-Tatva should be considered Guru. Actually Parmaatma is

> > everyone's Guru because everyone gets knowledge, light from Him

> only.

> >

> > These days one should stay away from Gurus who force the Shishya

to

> > worship the Guru, chant their name, take care of their bodies,

> > require them to have their leftover food and water etc. because

> > there is a great possibility of being cheated by them, like

Sitaji

> > (wife of Lord Rama) from Demon Ravan disguised as a sage.

> >

> > A renowned doctor can not treat his son or wife, but calls

another

> > doctor. Why, because of his attachment (Moha, Mamta) to his

family.

> > Only an outside doctor, who is not attached can treat well.

> > Similarly, only unattached, impartial Saints can impart

knowledge.

> > It is very sad that today's Gurus say that you become my

> > Shishya (disciple) then I will give you good knowledge. Such

Gurus

> > are actually slaves of the Shishyas (disciples).

> >

> > Actually, one does not have to make Guru. Guru just becomes.

Anyone

> > who knows more than us is our Guru, whether we believe it or not.

> >

> > One does not have to search Guru. Just as when the fruit ripes,

the

> > parrot comes on its own. Similarly, you get ready for getting

> > liberation, Guru will come automatically.

> >

> > A real Guru is one who diverts people towards Parmaatma instead

of

> > towards himself.

> >

> > " Krishnam Vande Jagatgurum "

> >

> > Narayana Narayana

> >

> > Rajendra J Bohra

> >

> >

> >

> > Re: Please Clarify Message on Real Seeker and His Quest for

> Liberation

> >

> >

> > Hari Om

> >

> > With reference to the message posted on the above subject and

views

> > of learned Saadhaks, I humbly submit that in this article Swamiji

> > has described the momentum to which a saadhak reaches when the

true

> > longing/ desire in him arises for salvation/ realisation. As

> rightly

> > concluded by Guru Charanji and Chitra Sriniji, here the

intention

> is

> > to reflect that a true seeker does not stop at anything once true

> > longing/desire in him awakens. There are many other continuing

> > examples given in the article to reflect this intention. You are

> > right that Guru/ Shishya parampara ( Spiritual Master / Disciple

> > tradition) is very pious and yielded great results in the past to

> > the saadhaks and disciples. But then, now, in this Kaliyuga, we

> find

> > rather too many Gurus directing disciples more towards themselves

> > rather than towards Paramatma (God) and we notice that quite

often,

> > a seeker finds himself empty handed in the end, many times even

> > cheated. It is those type of Gurus which are referred in this

> > Article - not real , desireless, egoless Gurus carrying

traditions

> > of olden times.

> >

> > As regards the observation of Adrian Meyers, let me state that

even

> > Swamiji on many occasions stated/written in his articles that

there

> > are situations when realisation can take place without having any

> > previous interest or desire for it at all. Desire is a mean, not

an

> > end. Yes, there is only enlightenment, all are already divine,

and

> > in the end (at final stage) this desire to realise Paramatma also

> > has to be relinquished by saadhak (Spiritual aspirant). You get

> > Paramatma realisation ONLY when you are in a totally desire less

> > mode. In fact, in the last speech of Swamiji, which was posted on

> > this site during this month only (around 2nd/3rd July), there is

a

> > confirmation of the views of Adrian Meyers.

> >

> > But that does not mean that a spiritual aspirant should not

desire

> > for Paramatma at the beginning of his journey. It is a must.

> > Nothing can replace the role of intense desire for Paramatma in

> > realisation. JUST AS: When you reach door steps of a temple/

church

> > etc, you relinquish/ leave your shoes, vehicle etc. outside only

> > e.g. you leave the very means of reaching to temple outside, and

go

> > before the Paramatma deity all alone, SIMILARLY at the final

stage

> > of Paramatma Realisation you leave even the desire for

realisation

> > outside and go all alone - desireless! The fact that the element

> > (Essence) is ever existing is undeniable and there is nothing in

> the

> > article which disputes this fact (rather there can never be a

> denial

> > of this fact in any article written by Swamiji). We ourselves

> employ

> > the word " REALISATION " and not " GETTING " , whenever we talk about

> > salvation etc. It is a fact that the element is already received

by

> > us. It is realising/ discovering/ remembering an already

available

> > but forgotten thing. Hence there is no contradiction of any sort

> > whatsoever in the concept

> >

> > Here the article was not on the Paramatma Realisation, the

article

> > was on the means thereof viz. intense desire, the momentum which

an

> > aspirant gathers in his journey, and the role of intense desire

as

> > well as Satsanga (good company). There is nothing wrong,

therefore,

> > in the article or in the translation. It is accurate, not an inch

> > missing the mark, leave aside million miles or light years

missing

> > the mark. Not an inch in fact..

> >

> > Therefore, I would urge, in all humbleness to fellow aspirants to

> > appreciate the fact that these short messages are picked from

> > Swamiji's books and are translated from Hindi to English as it

is.

> > Many times the messages are chosen with reference to one subtle

> > principle only and the moderator stops translating further and

> hence

> > the totality of the article gets limited/suffers a need for

> > explanation. That then is a reflection on the translator ONLY

and

> on

> > the space constraints regarding the size of message ONLY. In

> reality

> > the latter reason is more operative. However, the translation of

> > this article, the text , tenor, intention is absolutely

> blemishless.

> > Please trust me, I am not moderator or translator, I am as good a

> > fellow saadhak as are all others like Adrian or Guru Charanji.

> >

> > With sincere respects and divine regards to all fellow Saadhaks

> >

> > Jai Shree Krishna

> >

> > Vyas N B

> >

> >

> > , " sadhak_insight "

> > The statement you have made here misses the mark by a million

> miles.

> > It does not in any way take into account the fact that many come

to

> > realisation without having any previous interest OR desire for

it

> at

> > all.

> >

> > There is ONLY enlightenment, all are already Divine, and the

> seeking

> > of this is the very thing that prevents the seeing of this fact.

> > There is ONLY the Divine including that idea that there is other

> > than the Divine.

> > Avasa

> > (Adrian Meyers)

> > ----------------------------

> >

> > Namaskar,

> >

> > In your article you have mentioned that a sadhak having true

> longing

> > for his spiritual betterment will not last with a Guru if he is

> > unable to attain salvation through Him.

> >

> > The above is totally in contradiction with the Guru-shishya

> > parampara which Bharat is famous for. In fact if you take the

> > history of many Saints including that of Adhishankaracharya

> > (Gyanyogi) the role play of The Guru is what leads the Disciple

> > towards ultimate liberation. It is in fact The Guru who chooses

his

> > Disciple and not the other way around.

> >

> > And once accepted by a Guru, The Disciple just obeys his Guru's

> > advice and with The Guru's grace attains Gyan, Bhakthi and

> > Vairagya. Guru's grace alone guides him in his further spiritual

> > journey and leads him to Final liberation. (Mumukshatva)

> >

> > If a sadhak chooses to leave his Guru, it is not because of his

> > intense yearning(tulmul) for liberation,(as you have explained)

but

> > only due to his high ego, with which he will never realise his

aim

> > of self realisation. A true sadhak gets guidance from his Guru,

> even

> > if the Guru has given away his gross body(sthula deha). Because

the

> > disciple does 'adhnyapalan " of his Guru's words and becomes more

> and

> > more introverted that the Nirgun Gurutatva starts guiding him

from

> > within. Ref (Path of Guru's Grace) vol-4 of Science of

Spirituality

> > published by Santan Sanstha.

> >

> > Please write your articles very clearly, without leaving room for

> > misinterpretations. What you have really wanted to convey in your

> > article is actually that a real seeker does not stop at anything

> > until he reaches his goal. But the message below gives

> > out a completely different meaning.

> >

> > Gratitude.

> > Gurucharni.

> > Chitra Srini

> >

> > -----------------------------

> > [sadhaka] All That is Needed is Intense Longing for

> > Salvation (July 12, 2008)

> > sadhaka

> > Saturday, July 12, 2008, 5:00 AM

> >

> > :Shree Hari:

> >

> > 12th July, 2008, Saturday

> > Aashaad Shukla Navami, Vikram Samvat 2065, Shanivar

> >

> > A Sadhak (Spiritual Aspirant) who has a true longing for his

> > spiritual betterment and salvation, will not last anywhere

without

> > attaining salvation. If he finds a Guru, but is unable to attain

> > salvation through him, then he will not last with that Guru. If

he

> > becomes a sadhu (ascetic), but still does not attain salvation,

> then

> > there too he will not last long. If he joins an organization,

there

> > too he will not last. Until a hungry man, does not get food, how

> > can he rest? If there is deep and intense longing for salvation,

> > he will be unable to stay put anywhere. Staying put is simply not

> > in his hands. He will stay rested, only where his deep spiritual

> > longing is fulfilled.

> >

> > Out of great fortune and luck, one receives satsang (association

> > with truth) - " Bade bhaag paayib satsangaa " (Manasa. Utter.

33:4).

> > But in that same scripture (granth) that writes about great

> fortune,

> > it is also written, " Jehi ke Jehi per satya sanehu. So tehi

> > milayee ne kachu sandehu. " (Manasa., Baal. 259:3). One who has a

> > real and intense longing for spiritual truths, will certainly

> > receive real satsang (association of good company, Truth).

> >

> > He who has a real longing for salvation, he will receive the

> > opportunity for salvation and spiritual betterment - there is no

> > doubt about it. In this matter, it is not about one's luck or

> > fortune.

> >

> > In worldly matters such as acquisition of wealth, it is

essential

> to

> > have three things.

> > 1) Desire for wealth,

> > 2) Effort to acquire the wealth and

> > 3) Luck (fortune).

> >

> > But God Realization is possible by mere longing / desiring. This

> > human body has been received for the purpose of God Realization.

If

> > God is not attained, than how did this human body in anyway, aid

in

> > achieving this aim and purpose? Thus, by giving up worldly

desires,

> > exclusively awaken within the inquiry into the Self (Atma) or

> awaken

> > within an intense longing for God Realization. In this is the

> > success of human life.

> >

> > From " Mere Toh Giridhar Gopal, Dusero ne Koyi, " in Hindi pg 19 by

> > Swami Ramsukhdasji Maharaj.

> >

>

[Guest guest]

SHREE HARI

RAM RAM

 

In future, long postings will be cut out at the discretion of the Moderator or

they may not be posted. Please limit postings to a maximum of one (book) page.

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Gita-Talk Moderator.

------------------------------

 

In life, is it essential to have a Guru or not?

 

This questions has been raised in different forms at various times

in this forum.

 

Following is what I understand with the terms guru and disciple in

their isolation as we start thinking from the perspective of our

perceptional discrepancy.

 

Guru: Source of knowledge, a never-changing entity.

 

Disciple: Receiver of knowledge, an ever-changing entity.

 

NOW … can there be anything without GURU? Could anyone have uttered

a word without a guru? Could anyone have put a step forward without

a guru? Could there be a single action or thought that had no guru?

THEREFORE, THE QUESTION IS REDICULOUS. The observation – the Guru

and Shisya relationship is old concept and no more relevant in the

present age. Most of the time, Shisya knows more than the Guru – is

absolutely baseless.

 

Knowledge in our perception is to receive new information …

ignorance in our perception is the obsolete information junked in

our memory. You cannot receive new valid information on anything

unless you accept that the corresponding information you have saved

in your memory is obsolete. Often, we ignorantly imagine that

ignorance is lack of some information without realizing that we

could not perceive anything if it has no bearing on our earlier

experiences. The source of valid information is the guru and the

junkyard of obsolete information is the student. The force that

validates the newer information is The Guru within. The recipient of

the newer information is the student. Therefore, anything that

perceives can only be a student. It can never be a guru.

 

Student can never be greater than Guru as such since a guru should

relatively have more valid information than a student by definition.

The identity of Guru may change … not of the concept.

 

Whether we know or not, whether we like it or not, all the

information that we seem to proudly own happens to be borrowed from

everything other than ourselves. The instant we think we know better

than our guru, we forfeit our right to call ourselves his students.

The instant we declare we know, we forfeit our studenthood as such.

That is the worst thing that is possible to happen to any seeker.

 

Knowledge is a perpetual process of acknowledging ignorance within …

in other words, one can earn the right to receive knowledge only by

an acceptance of the ignorance harbored within and through a

resolution to purge the same.

 

A difference of opinion is insufficient to judge whether I know more

than others. In fact, can anybody know more than any other? It is an

incorrect notion because … (1) The Knowledge does not belong to

anybody; (2) nobody can ever assess what another could possible know

and (3) more than anything else, nobody really knows how much he/she

knows in the first place! In other words The Knowledge is

immeasurable. Therefore any comparison based on knowledge is

lopsided in itself. But, a difference of opinion certainly

establishes that one harbors the same is definitely incapable of

appreciating an opposing view point on the same point and hence is

ignorant to that extent. A difference of opinion certainly brings

out one's ignorance for inspection. One should capitalize on such

opportunities to examine one's own ignorance. One becomes a self-

assisin if one resorts to twist such opporutinies to establish

other's ignorance because (1) one has missed a great opportunity to

unveil oneself in the first place and (2) one has veiled more opaque

costumes by intensifying one's own ignorance in the process. One

should keep in mind that one can never establish ignorance in others

just for one's incapability of penetrating anything beyond its

superficial presence. Even if one does, it cannot do anything good

within.

 

Greatness is not in being a Guru as the Guru forfeits freedom to

learn or unlearn! Greatness is in being a student as student alone

retains freedom to learn and unlearn!! That is why students are kept

at high esteem in all our scriptures. Often the gurus are obscure

and referred directly to cosmic forces in the name of gods.

 

In our traditional learning system, there are only students

communicating to each other their learning each considering the

other as guru. Learning is a life-long process for a true student.

 

All scripts always make statement such as " let us learn

together " , " let us explore together " , and so on. Learning is a

collective process between multiple individuals.

 

" I know " is the furtile seed of ignorance … " I know better " is the

fertile soil of ignorance. I know the best is the furtile fruit of

ignorance which enseeds itself perpetually. No sane saint will ever

say I am a Guru … e.g. Ram Sukhdasji never let anybody touch his

feet or worship him. A true sadhaka is an eternal student of

everything in life.

 

One who thinks to know better than the other will forfeit a chance

to learn. One who thinks the other knows better can learn. The

knowledge always flows from a higher plane to a lower plane just

like water. You cannot receive the nectar of water to sustain your

existence unless you are at a lowere elevation than the source of

water. You cannot receive the nectar of knowledge to sustain your

soul unless you position yourself lower than the source of knowledge

which is everything.

 

Craving for students (in other words, to be a Guru) is the weakness.

Urging for a Guru (in other words, maintaining oneself as a student)

is the strength. A true seeker always seeks the association of true

students. Any other seeker is definitely a guru for a true seeker.

In fact everything is nothing but The Guru for a true seeker. That

is why they say " Guru will seek you if your yearning for learning is

pure and strong " . No true seeker can announce himself as the guru to

us. No true seeker can ever wield the ignorance of not seeing the

guru in anything in life. It is student's responsibility to locate

The Guru in the fellow sadhkas, rather, in everything around.

 

One has no choice but to receive the grace of The Guru actively or

passively, knowingly or unknowingly, wantingly or unwantingly.

Everything is born with The Guru embedded in its core to achieve

this task. In a way, everything is a guru as well as a disciple.

Therefore, guru and disciple are nothing but The Same. One who seeks

the guru in everything seeks The Guru within and becomes one with

the same. The eternal learner is the only eternal knower. One who

sees ONLY GURU AND NOTHING ELSE in the whole universe remains the

Eternal Student and is verily THE JAGADGURU as such.

 

Respects

 

Naga Narayana

 

 

----------------------------

 

Dear readers, this foolish jiva would beg your indulgence to

consider a few

points on the matter of accepting guru....in the Srimad bhagavatam,

11.3.21...this verse is given....tasmad gurum prapadyeta, jijnasuh

sreya uttamam, sabde pare ca nisnatam, brahmany

upasamasrayam....... " Therefore any person who seriously desires real

happiness must seek a bona fide spiritual master and take shelter of

him thru initiation. The qualification of a bona fide spiritual

master is that he has realized the conclusions of the scriptures

by deliberation and is able to convince others of these

conclusions. Such great personalities, who have taken shelter of

the Supreme Godhead leaving aside all material considerations,

should be understood to be bona fide spiritual masters. "

 

We deep respect and reverence, I acknowledge that many individuals

may indeed have a strong relationship with Paramatma.....but this is

different from understanding of Bhagavan. The word Bhagavan

indicates the Supreme Person who is full in six opulences....all

knowledge, all strength, all fame, all wealth, all beauty, and all

renunciation. These qualities are attributed to the Supreme

Person, who is described in the Vedas by the nomenclature " Sri

Krsna " . If one has no desire to know Sri Radha and Krsna

personally, this may or may not be considered a fault depending on

one's point of view/faith. We all choose what level of service to

the Lord we desire.... Paramatma level of God realization is

a very high state of awareness/God consciousness....for some this is

perfect, and my deepest respects and folded palms to those on this

level. However, the three levels of God realization are compared

to the 3 levels of understanding the sun globe....the rays

of the sun are to Brahman realization, the observation of the

sunglobe being in the sky is to Paramatma awareness, and Bhagavan

realization is compared to actually being able to enter into the sun

globe itself, to know its inhabitants, Vivasvan and others, and to

be part of that domain. (this is substantiated in the Srimad

Bhagavatam 1.2.11

vadanti tat tattva-vidas

tattvam yaj jnanam advayam

brahmeti paramatmeti

bhagavan iti sabdyate......

" Learned transcendentalists who know the

Absolute Truth call this nondual substance Brahman, Paramatama or

Bhagavan. "

 

Paramatma is an expansion from Sri Krsna, specifically to guide

the jiva in this world, and to remember all our actions and thereby

give us the resultant reactions. He is in the hearts of all, and to

love Him and serve Him is a glorious state of being. In order to

attain the higher realm of God realization, of entering into the

loving pastimes of Sri Krsna and His eternal associates, (when

Paramatma appears externally before the sadhak) to accept an

uttama=adhikari Guru is not just a consideration.....it is an

absolute necessity, as referenced in the verse from the Bhagavatam

above. (I could list dozens of verses, but space restraints

prevent) Just as in this world, one will not be able very well to

meet with any great personality unless introduced by

someone else who is close to that person, so guru takes the position

of introducing us to Sri Radha and Krsna, and freeing us from the

ego to the degree that we can enter into Their company. Not

everyone is meant for this....perhaps in a million births I may be

fortunate enough to even begin to desire, what to speak of have the

qualifications.....I therefore humbly applaud those who have loving

close sentiments for Paramatma in the heart.

Also, I would like to mention, it is not an external affair, this

initiaion/acceptance of guru. So many so-called disciples go for

their fire yajna....offer some daksin, chant prayers....but their

heart has not been offered. So, one cannot know very easily who is a true

disciple, for the formalities will not display the exchange of the heart.

 

Respectfully,

Mahalakmsi Dasi

 

 

---------------------------

Hari Om

 

I am glad to add a few words regarding Guru.

 

" ajnaana Timiraandhasya jnaanaanjana shalaakaya

Chakshurunmeelitam ena tasmai sree gurave namah " he is the remover

of the layer of ignorance by knowledge and gives the eye of wisdom.

Even to say a letter, mother, the first guru teaches the child. All

the schooling would be useless if a guru is not needed.

all universities have to be closed. Any body who teaches any thing I

did not know and made it known to me is a guru.

If in this world of materials we need the help of a guru, what to

talk of 'Paramaartha jnaana'.

Rare few like Bhagavan Ramana did not need a Guru. But most of us

never reach any where without a Guru.

Those Lucky few please donot misguide the ordinary folks like myself

denying the need for a guru.

Any body can be a guru, a book, a friend, mother, father,teacher,

etc. It all depends on ones own vision of such.

If one denies guru's guidance in life ONE is forgetting ones own

mother. Let us remember what all our godly mother taught us.

to eat, to walk, to talk and even talk back and all the rest for

ones growth.

For a spiritual seaker a GURU

is " GururBrahma,gururvishnuh,gururdevomaheshvarah,gurureva param

Brahma " . Hail that Guru who is none other than Lord alone to keep us on the

right path to raech HIM.

Love

Nagaraju

(Marigowda Nagaraju)

 

 

 

 

 

 

, " sadhak_insight "

<sadhak_insight wrote:

>

> Jai Shri Krishna,

>

> The issue actually is whether there is a need for Guru-Shishya

> Parampara (Preceptor – Disciple Tradition).

>

> As per Gitaji, there can be only two Gurus – Conscience (Viveka)

or

> Parmaatma.

>

> Gitaji 6:5, 6:6 & 4:38 declare in no uncertain terms that Self

only

> can liberate Self. If Parmaatma has given us human birth, then he

> has also given us sufficient material to realize Him. Hence, there

> is no need of some one else (and some thing else) for realizing

> Parmaatma. Actually, conscience, Parmaatma, Guru is present within

> Self, but due to our attachment to the perishable, material world

we

> are unable to identify the same.

>

> Gitaji does not espouse the idea of making Preceptor or Disciple.

> One is Guru of himself and therefore, he has to give discourse to

> himself. When all is Parmaatma (Vaasudevah Sarvam / 7:19), then

who

> will become Guru and to whom the discourses will be given.

> `Uddharedatmnatmanam' (Gita 6:5) LITERALLY means instead of

finding

> mistakes in others, find our own mistakes and try to alleviate the

> same.

>

> Krishna confirms in Gita 3:23 that every one follows His path.

> Parmaatma incarnates from time to time to teach man the way of

> living in this world. Further, Krishna confirms that He only is

the

> Guru of all Demigods and all Great Sages, by all means (Gitaji

> 10:2). Arjuna also tells Krishna that You only are everyone's Guru

> (Gitaji 11:37 and 11:43).

>

> Therefore, a spiritual aspirant (Sadhak) does not have to search a

> Guru. He simply has to consider Krishna as his Guru according

> to `Krishnam Vande Jagatgurum' and pursue his Sadhana according to

> Gitaji, which is Krishna's voice (Vaani), His hymn (Mantra). If he

> will feel the necessity of some spiritual master from worldly

point

> of view then Krishna, Jagatguru, will make him meet the Guru;

> because He says `Yogakshema Vahamiaham' in (Gitaji 9:22).

>

> Krishnam Vande Jagatgurum.

>

> Narayana Narayana

>

> Rajendra J. Bohra

>

> -

--

> , " sadhak_insight "

> <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> >

> > Hari Om

> >

> > Oh , What a divine shape this deliberation has taken ! Satsanga,

> and

> > Group discussion has its own divinity ! Afterall, it is JNANA

> YAGYA

> > as per Gitaji.

> >

> > Gita - 4:34 can not be said to be confirming that Guru Shishya

> > Parampara is mandatory or even necessary for SELF REALIZATION.

Let

> > us examine that:-

> >

> > " Learn that by your obeisance humble reverence , by questioning

> and

> > by your service : the wise who have realized the truth , will

> > instruct thee , in that knowledge (jnana) "

> >

> > That is all 4:34 says. What does the preceptor do here? He can

> > merely teach the disciple regarding the unreal world. In fact

from

> > the preceptor, a disciple does not gain knowledge about the

self,

> > but he gains knowledge about the world. When a striver comes to

> know

> > the truth about the unreal world, his affinity for the world ,

MAY

> (

> > depending upon the determination of striver and striver only)

get

> > renounced and he realizes the self, which is self evident.. The

> > term " Upadekshyanti " (instruct) means, that the great souls

> instruct

> > a striver, (nothing more) but it is not necessary that he should

> > attain self realization. Ultimately it is the FAITH which get

you

> > realization. Where has it been written that it is compulsory ?

> > Entire world comes to the rescue and help of that person who has

> > turned towards the Paramatma. Even Mother Nature becomes

> especially

> > inclined to help such person. Each and everything which happens

in

> > his life becomes his Guru. The Law of Karma accelerates to

destroy

> > all his past sins in a super fast manner. Grace of Paramatma

> starts

> > giving him the way. Gurus start coming to him as if guided by a

> > natural force. Rishi Dattatreya, as per Bhagavatam, counted 24

> Gurus

> > from whom he received knowledge, without these 24 people (

> including

> > a prostitute, some animals also) even knowing that some one has

> > considered them to be Guru ! That is what is element called

Guru..

> >

> > The same Lord therefore in the same Gita, in the same Chapter 4

> also

> > tells to the same Arjuna that :-

> >

> > " Verily, nothing purifies in this world, like knowledge (jnana).

> He

> > who has been perfected in Yoga fully finds it AUTOMATICALLY and

> > POSITIVELY in the SELF " (Gita 4:38)

> >

> > Here the words employed should be read carefully. Here Lord

> declares

> > that a Karma Yogi having become perfected in Yoga, gains this

> > knowledge POSITIVELY (assuredly). The term " kalena " used in this

> > verse, needs special attention. The Lord has used the third

> > inflexion, which means that through Karma Yoga, one certainly

> gains

> > knowledge of the SELF, or realizes Paramatma. The term " svayam "

> > (self generated), shows that a Yogi gains the knowledge of the

> self,

> > while performing his duty, without the guidance of a Guru, or

the

> > scriptures or any other means. AUTOMATIC ! Leave aside , Guru -

> even

> > accepting the existence element called " Paramatma " is not

> necessary

> > in Self realization through the paths of Karma Yoga and Jnana

> Yoga.

> > It is not necessary at all! That is the justice of Paramatma.

That

> > is the grace of Paramatma. That is the power of SELF.

> >

> > Now let us come to Arjuna's uttering of the word " shishya " in

2:7.

> > Here he also stated that " I surrender to you " . At that point

> Arjuna

> > was too blind, too grief stricken to talk sense at all. I have

> > constraints of space, otherwise I can give a whole list of what

> > Arjuna told to Krishna upto this verse and how Krishna

ruthlessly

> > proved him not only wrong but proved that he was talking just

> > reverse of what was reality. (If some sadhak is interested, he

can

> > post a question) It was the stupidity of Arjuna that made

Krishna

> > laugh freely and then started the real Gita. Stupidity – because

> on

> > one hand Arjuna said that I surrender to you. On other hand in

the

> > very next verse and in 2:9, he said " I will not fight " . Now one

> who

> > surrenders, does he get right to say so ? No ! If you read 18:66

> > which sets the definition of surrender - categorical No ! In 2:7

> > itself Arjuna tells " I Surrender and now teach me " . This is not

> the

> > principle of surrender. Once you have surrendered, whether

Krishna

> > teaches you, or does not teach you, is not your prerogative at

> all.

> > Hence 2:7 neither establishes Guru Shishya parampara nor

> establishes

> > principles of surrender. It was a grief stricken Arjuna,

uttering

> > sense lessly the words which came to his mind - making Krishna

> > laugh ! ! Krishna never accepted " preceptorship " vis a vis

> Arjuna !

> > He in fact later on called him to be his friend - which was how

> > Krishna took the relationship. In fact as late as upto verse

18:59

> > Krishna did not believe Arjuna to be either disciple or

> surrendered.

> >

> > There is no need of a Guru even for renouncing the affinity with

> the

> > world. Use of conscience is more than enough. If we just respect

> our

> > conscience, keep doing our duties in the world and remember

always

> > that we do not belong to this world, we in due course of time

will

> > get automatically liberated. Nothing else is needed. Had it been

> in

> > the hands of Saints and Sages, the world would not have been in

> the

> > shape it is today. A great Paramatma realized soul wants entire

> > humanity to get liberated. But is the SELF and SELF alone who

has

> to

> > initiate and get initiated. Consider the example of EKLAVYA. He

> took

> > the Guru Tattwa (Element) not the body made of bones and flesh.

> Even

> > Lord Krishna could not liberate the entire humanity when He

> > incarnated. You, yourself, have to be willing. What a Guru can

do,

> > unless the disciple is accepting him?. There is Guru already

> sitting

> > in you, CONSCIENCE. If some body cares to find out what

> > characteristics the person to be called as " preceptor " / Guru

> should

> > possess in order to fall with in the ambit of Gita 4:34, one

will

> > perhaps have to spend whole life only in finding and locating

him.

> > In this yuga it will be very difficult to find him. Paramatma

> cannot

> > be that arbitrary, to provide that who ever finds such a great

> soul

> > only can realize me, and no body else. The element called Guru

> > becomes essential only if there is an express provision in the

> > Scriptures to that effect. There is Guru element in everything,

> even

> > in a stone, even in a mountain if one has faith.

> >

> > Jai Shree Krishna

> >

> > Vyas N B

> > --------------------------------

-

> >

> > --------------------------------

--

> --

> > , " sadhak_insight "

> > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > >

> > > -Shree Hari-

> > >

> > > I think there can be trouble in translation, and these

> > > interpretations can be coloured by the interpreters inner

> beliefs.

> > > Looking at two different sources in English Translation A & B :

> > >

> > > Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master.

> > > Inquire from him submissively and render service unto him. The

> > self-

> > > realized souls can impart knowledge unto you because they have

> seen

> > > the truth. [4.34](Trans.A)

> > >

> > > Know that by long prostration, by question and by service, the

> wise

> > > who have realised the Truth will instruct you in (that)

> > > knowledge.[4.34](Trans.B)

> > >

> > > As all surrender unto Me, I reward them accordingly. Everyone

> > follows

> > > My path in all respects, O son of Pritha. [4.11(Trans.A)]

> > >

> > > In whatever way men approach me, even so do I reward them; my

> path

> > do

> > > men tread in all ways, Arjuna![4.11(Trans.B)]

> > >

> > > But note :

> > > One must deliver himself with the help of his mind, and not

> degrade

> > > himself. The mind is the friend of the conditioned soul, and

his

> > > enemy as well. [6.5](Trans.A)(I have a problem with mind, self

> > seems

> > > more appropriate).

> > >

> > > Let a man lift himself by his own Self alone; let him not lower

> > > himself, for this self alone is the friend of oneself and this

> self

> > > alone is the enemy of oneself.6.5](Trans.B)

> > >

> > > Without being overly pedantic B.G. 6.5 Translation A & B are

in

> > clear

> > > agreement. I also read this as a directive.

> > >

> > > However there seems to be a greyness between A & B in B.G.

4.34,

> but

> > > what is clear to me is Krishna is not pointing to a single

> > > Guru,(Especially translation B) I would take this to be advice

> > > given.(Just try.../ Know that..).

> > >

> > > As for B.G. 4.11 , I read that all humanity will come to

> Krishna

> > by

> > > their own chosen path.

> > >

> > > Beyond this is experience, to me that is the final litmus test

to

> > > clarify the mind.

> > >

> > > With Respect and Divine Love.

> > >

> > > Mike

> > > (Mike Keenor)

> > > ------------------------------

--

> -

> > > Shree Hari

> > > Ram Ram

> > >

> > > Swamiji has conveyed some very key messages regarding the

> subject,

> > > many have been covered, yet I will attempt to summarize a few

> > points, by His grace -

> > >

> > > 1) If you accept God as Guru, your work is completed. In God,

> you

> > > will receive everything.

> > >

> > > 2) Swamiji says that Gita 4:34 is not indicating that you must

> > > engage in a formal Guru - Disciple relationship and receive

> formal

> > > initiation. When one goes to a realized, great Soul,

prostrates

> at

> > > his feet (surrenders to him), does all activities according to

> his

> > > instructions, and expresses one's keen quest and inquiry into

the

> > > essential nature, then the Guru (tattva), will instruct the

> > aspirant in the essential knowledge of Truth, without even

> engaging

> > in a formal Guru-Disciple relation.

> > >

> > > 3) Liberation is from one's own inner and intense longing, not

> by

> > making someone a Guru. Until that deep longing, that intensity,

> that

> > quest for salvation is not awakened within one's self, till that

> > time, even God Himself cannot free one, then how will a Guru be

> able

> > to do so ?

> > >

> > > 4) Great Souls come in to this world, to bring human beings

> close

> > to

> > > God, not to get people attracted to and involved in themselves

> > > instead. One who attracts others towards himself (to worship

> him,

> > to

> > > meditate on him etc) is a deceitful imposter.

> > >

> > > 5) Guru is the essence (tattva, element), Guru is not a human

> > > being. To see a Guru in a human being and to see a human being

> in a

> > > Guru is a crime.

> > >

> > > 6) A great soul is never restricted to the body, therefore why

> the

> > > worship of the physical aspects? As far as possible one must

stay

> > > far away from and escape safely away from one who gets others

to

> > > worship him, meditate on body made of flesh and bones, recite

> his

> > name, eating his leftover morsels, etc. etc., because in this

> there

> > is a great likelihood of being cheated and these things becoming

> an

> > obstacle in worship of God. One should worship the form of God

> > alone, one must meditate on God alone, one must make an offering

> of

> > food to God alone.

> > >

> > > 7) As stated in the scriptures - " Uma Ram sum hit jag naahi;

> Guru

> > pitu maatu bandhu prabhu naahi. "

> > > " In this Universe their is no one, neither Guru (teacher), nor

> > > father, nor mother, nor brother who is our well-wisher, as God

> is. "

> > >

> > > 8) God, even though being a Universal Guru, does not make

anyone

> > > his disciple (chela). He only makes them his comrade and

friend.

> > > Arjun is only accepting His guidance. It is his reverence for

> Shri

> > Krishna that makes him say he is a sishya.. but Krishna does not

> say

> > that you are my formal chella... Shri Krishna - Arjun dialogue

did

> > not require a formal initiation or Guru-disciple relationship to

> > receive guidance.

> > >

> > > Other points -

> > >

> > > 9) Those Gurus that have desire to make disciples can never

ever

> > > become Gurus.

> > >

> > > 10) Individuals that transact or trade their teachings are not

> > real Gurus. Those that say - first become my disciple (student),

> > then I will reveal to you the path towards God Realization, are

> like

> > traders of God and an item traded is of less value than the

listed

> > price.

> > >

> > > 11) It is a sad thing that on becoming a disciple, one becomes

> > > allured, develops attachment, and when this delusion sets

> > > in, both guru and disciple take a fall - " Guru Lobhi, Shishya

> > > Laalchi, dono khele daav Dono dooba parasram, baith patther ki

> > naav. "

> > >

> > > 12) Particularly for a devotee who has taken refuge in God

> > (sharanagat bhakta), God Himself takes care of all the needs of

> the

> > devotee including spiritual upliftment and liberation. Gita

4:34

> > only is in reference to a seeker of knowledge, not a devotee who

> has

> > taken refuge in God. The Bhakti yoga chapters are Ch 7-12 do not

> > address this subject at all.

> > >

> > > 13) Please think about this. " Krishnam Vande Jagatgurum. " God

is

> > the

> > > Guru of this entire Universe and you are in this Universe. Lord

> > > Krishna's mantra is - " Bhagavad Gita " . Contemplate on the

Gita

> and

> > > live by it, and attain salvation.

> > >

> > > There is so much more on this subject... in light of the

group's

> > > guidelines, I will stop here.

> > >

> > > Meera das

> > > Ram Ram

> > >

> > > ------------------------------

--

> -

> > > Loving Divine,

> > > Pranam.

> > >

> > > This email is in response to the need for a Guru. As I have

> > > indicated before & many others have also listed that the Guru-

> > tattva

> > > (essense) is one & the same in all then why this big fuss

about

> not

> > > having human guru? Whether we learn from bird, animal, sky,

> earth,

> > > human or any creature, what difference does it make, after all

> > guru-

> > > tattva is the same, isn't it? Everything flows from the same

> > source

> > > so everything in this creation is capable of teaching us

> something.

> > > We are not conscious of ourselves & surroundings around us but

we

> > > are not completely unaware or ignorant either. We all learn

> > > differently - some learn by listening or looking or touching or

> > > experimenting - all senses are involved or one can also learn

> just

> > > by silencing their senses, etc. So when we have a teacher to

> teach

> > > us various subjects why not to teach spirituality, the most

> > > essential of all subjects of our life? I wanted to clarify

some

> > > misunderstanding people have. Guru is a must regardless in

which

> > > form it comes but relationship with that form is dangerous!

Do

> you

> > > understand what I am trying to say? For us to feel

comfortable

> in

> > > our learning, we may establish relationship and that is ok too

> but

> > > to remain attached to it is the problem. Please understand the

> > > subtleties of this aspect. I think when I read Swamiji's

> message,

> > I

> > > felt his whole concern is people leaving their families to

break-

> > off

> > > relationships and they establish another relationship (as they

> just

> > > can't truly drop the relationship) with their guru (another

form)

> > > and between these 2 relationships, there is no difference.

One

> is

> > > still attached. All relationships need to be dropped,

including

> > > guru-disciple and it happens only when guru-disciple become

one

> and

> > > the same. If only one exist where is relationship? In

physical

> > > relationships we are bound but when the learning happens

without

> > > this bondage, it is just a pure learning and when one is at

this

> > > level, one is learning from all creation, not just human guru.

> > >

> > > Shri Ramkrishna Paramhamsa had Totapuri as his guru to lead

him

> to

> > > his final formless stage. Lord Rama had 2 human gurus - Shri

> > > Valmiki and Sage Vashishtha. Shri Krishna had 3 human Gurus

in

> His

> > > life - Gargaachaarya (kul-guru), Rishi Sandipani (in whose

> > > ashram/hermitage He stayed from childhood), and Sage Ghor

Angiras

> > > (Yoga/Spiritual Guru). So now tell me if Krishna had 3 human

> > gurus,

> > > how can He oppose having a Guru??? There are events listed of

> Rama

> > > & Krishna serving (physically) their gurus with their utmost

love

> > > and reverence and thus acquiring all vidya (knowledge). In BG

> 2:7,

> > > Arjun says guide me I am your shishya. BG 3:34-36, Lord says

> serve

> > > gyaani (one who knows The Truth). BG 4:1, Bhagwan talks about

> > > teaching karma yoga to Sun to Manu to Ikshvaku. In BG4:2, He

> also

> > > mentions about this (guru-shishya) being a Paramparaa. In BG

> 4:3,

> > > He says I am telling you this yoga because you are my friend

and

> > > devotee (bhakta). True guru will not say that I am your

guru.

> In

> > > BG 11:43, Arjun is finally capable of understanding the guru-

> tattva

> > > within his friend Krisha then he says that Krishana, the

formless

> > > one, is the greatest Guru. Behine every creation or form,

> Krishna

> > > (formless) is there (vasudev sarvam), that's why every thing is

> > > capable of teaching us and we are capable of learning so

instead

> of

> > > condemning one way vs. other, just accept that we all learn

> > > differently, we all are at different level of learning, and we

> all

> > > are at different pace of learning, then one will understand

that

> > any

> > > and every way of leaning is coming from one and only one

source.

> > >

> > > Some questions have been raised in past about guru being mean

or

> > > greedy and what not... Lord defines in Gitaji who is true

> gyaani,

> > > serving whom one can attain the Truth. Other scriptures also

> > > describe how to know who is the true guru. In past email we

have

> > > discussed this subject, may be one can perform search in gita-

> talk

> > > archieves. However, I have some questions:

> > > If by listening to guru my attachment to money, family, food,

> > > physical pleasure, etc. doesn't go away, what shall the true

> guru

> > do

> > > so that such attachments get dropped?

> > > if I am not curbing my anger or greed even though I know it is

> bad

> > > for me and others, what shall the true guru do?

> > > if my emotions are coming in my way or my relationships are the

> > > hurdle or my emotions/attitude are blocking my path or my ego

is

> > > just blinding me from evolving, what shall the true guru do to

> > clear

> > > out the path?

> > > What are the options available to true guru to teach me

whatever

> I

> > > needed to learn to evolve in my spiritual path and attain the

> > > ultimate goal of my life?

> > > Please think and answer to the above. If you can answer them

> > > honestly looking from guru's perspective, you will be able to

> > > understand some of the behavior of guru then you will be

> grateful

> > to

> > > guru for what he does for you than condemning him. Baba says

if

> > you

> > > are attached with the workings of body and mind, your own

> > negativity

> > > is reflected in other people, environment or the world around

> you.

> > >

> > > Hope this helps...

> > > humble regards,

> > > always at Thy Holy Feet

> > >

> > > ------------------------------

--

> --

> > > ------------------------------

--

> --

> > > ALL PREVIOUS MESSAGES

> > > Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

> > >

> > > A sadhaka asks a question: In life, is it essential to have a

> Guru

> > > or not?

> > >

> > > I would say if this question keeps arising to a sadhaka, then

> > answer

> > > is " YES " .

> > >

> > > Guru means " that " whatever that instills the quest in us to

> pursue

> > > with untiring energy to find out what we are. That which turns

> our

> > > mind inward by pushing us from outside until we feel the pull

> from

> > > inside to discover our essence!

> > >

> > > The best thing I have found is to just burn with the longing

to

> > know

> > > truth to the extent that no price is ever greater than

discovery

> of

> > > truth of oneself( Note:Truth of oneself and not truth about

> > > oneself).

> > >

> > > To be a disciple, one needs to develop complete humility which

> will

> > > open up one's mind to watch, listen, hear and contemplate.

This

> > will

> > > bring all that we need home. All of a sudden one may find that

> one

> > > is drawn to someone whose presence and words have magical

quality

> > > taking one to unknown dimension! His/Her answers bring

> satisfaction

> > > never found before even through the scriptures, peace unknown,

> and

> > > joy that knows no cause! One's whole being may cry out " yes,

yes,

> > > this is what I have been waiting " .

> > >

> > > Recognizing such inner voice is of utmost importance at this

> time.

> > > Responding to such directions appropriately happens

> spontaneously,

> > > inspite of us. At this point, sadhakas, just know that you

have

> the

> > > Guru! A Guru is born in our heart right then and there!

> > >

> > > Such a non-individual in the form of apparant individual

becomes

> > the

> > > mouthpiece of God to announce God's glory and thus become a

> channel

> > > between us and God to remove our darkness and lead us to light

> > > ultimately! Why channel, because experience of God is beyond

mind

> > > and intellect!

> > >

> > > Thus I don't hesitate to say, the best resource to realization

is

> > > hearing the truth from the lips of your Guru. Scriptures and

> > > everything else are the next best!

> > >

> > > Namaskars, Pratap

> > >

> > > (Pratap Bhatt)

> > > ------------------------------

--

> --

> > -

> > >

> > > Dear readers,

> > >

> > > om ojnana timirandasya, jnana jnana salakaya,

> > > caksur unmilitam yena, tasmai sri gurave namah

> > >

> > > " I was born in the darkest ignorance, and my spiritual master

> > opened

> > > my eyes with the torchlight of knowledge. I offer my humble

> > > obeisances unto him " .

> > >

> > > In the words below, our friend has tried to point out that

> > men/women

> > > do not need guru. Personally, I cannot see how anyone can come

to

> > > such a conclusion....even to learn how to do simple things in

> this

> > > world, such as to become proficient in book-keeping, to learn

the

> > > art of cooking, electricity, etc....any art or science, one

must

> > > approach a teacher. Even if one says he learnt from a book,

> still,

> > > a person has written the book. If there was no need for guru,

> then

> > > it would be so easy for everyone in Kali yuga to come to the

> level

> > > of those high-minded saints that existed in previous yugas. Do

we

> > > see this happening? And in truth, aren't the symptoms of Kali

> > > become worse and worse? Intoxiication, gambling, meat-eating,

and

> > > prostitution are rampant everywhere, even in the most gentle,

> clean

> > > communities, one can still find it all either by the

television

> or

> > > online.

> > >

> > > One who is himself coming from the transcendental world can

look

> > > into the heart of a disciple and perceive the deficiency in the

> > > heart, so that the disciple may come to a level of spiritual

> > > awareness. The lessons taught by guru can be painful, if the

> > > sadhaka is attached to worldly things such as prestige, money,

> > > power, etc. Due to the nature of pratistha, the desire for

fame,

> > > these anarthas are not always visible to the jiva. So, without

> the

> > > help of guru, one may go on, life time after life time,

thinking

> > > oneself so pure and advanced.

> > >

> > > This in itself is an illusion, for the pure soul is always

> > > introspective and striving for purity, not complacent with a

> sense

> > > of, " I am so pure. " It is conveyed throughout the Gita that

> Arjuna

> > > is confused, bewildered, and playing the role of a disciple,

FOR

> > OUR

> > > BENEFIT. If there was no need of the guru/disciple

relationship,

> > > why did Arjuna present himself as a bewildered jiva

> > > chapter two, verse 7.... " now I am confused about my duty and

have

> > > lost all composure because of weakness. In this condition I am

> > > asking You to tell me clearly what is best for me. Now I am

> > > Your disciple and a soul surrendered unto You. Please instruct

> > > me. " ? The entire Gita is presented to bring Arjun to the point

of

> > > executing his duty for the satisfaction of Lord Sri Krsna, not

to

> > > tell him to live life by whatever he feels in his heart.

Illusion

> > > must be broken by one free from illusion.

> > >

> > > Respectfully,

> > >

> > > Mahalaksmi Dasi

> > >

> > > Hari Om

> > >

> > > A Saadhak has asked question – " Is it essential to have Guru or

> > > not? " . He has sought Gita views on the subject.

> > >

> > > If one reads carefully Gita (say 6:5, 6:6) , it is abundantly

> clear

> > > that it is not the principle d by Gita that one should

> > > become Guru or disciple. It is very clear.

> > >

> > > Gita 6:5 reads as under:-

> > >

> > > " Let a man emancipate himself by his own self; and not degrade

> > > himself; for he himself is his friend, as well as, his enemy.

> > >

> > > Gita 6:6 reads as under:-

> > >

> > > " To him, who has conquered his self by himself, his own self

is a

> > > friend : but to him who has not conquered the self, his own

self

> > > acts as his foe. "

> > >

> > > Initiation (initiating or being initiated) is not the

principle

> of

> > > the Gita. A man is his own preceptor, therefore he has to know,

> > > learn, and imbibe in the teachings the gospel by his own self.

> When

> > > all is Paramatma (VASUDEVAH SARVAM), then who except Paramatma

> is a

> > > preceptor ! (KRISHNAM VANDE JAGADGURUM - Krishna is Guru of

> entire

> > > world). Who will reveal the gospel and to whom will he reveal

it?

> > >

> > > Therefore, instead of perceiving defects in others, a man

should

> > > perceive defects in his own self and try to get rid of them and

> > > teach the gospel to himself. He himself should become his own

> > > preceptor, he himself should become his leader and he himself

> > should

> > > become his own ruler!

> > >

> > > Every human being has been given " CONSCIENCE " (Viveka) along

with

> > > this human body. That conscience is our Guru. It never

changes.

> It

> > > never tells us something that is inappropriate. It never

agrees

> to

> > > our wrong doings - NEVER! It is our direct experience. Who

then

> can

> > > be a better Guru than our own conscience, residing right

within

> us?

> > >

> > > Jai Shree Krishna

> > >

> > > Vyas N B

> > > ------------------------------

--

> --

> > >

> > > Namaste....

> > >

> > > My respects to all in this sanga....I am writing in respect to

> the

> > question by

> > > Vyasa. Ramchandra...he asked what the Bhagavad Gita says in

> regard

> > to the need

> > > for a guru. I am guided by my diksha guru, and by my siksha

> guru,

> > to speak in

> > > answer to this question. It is truly nothing short of thievery

> if

> > a disciple

> > > presents what he has been given from his guru, and fails to

> > acknowledge his

> > > indebtedness toward the one who has given the knowledge.

> > >

> > > In the fourth chapter of the Gita, Transcendental Knowledge,

> > chapter 34, it is

> > > said, " tad viddhi pranipatena, pariprasnene sevaya,

upadeksyanti

> > te jnanam,

> > > jnaninas tattva-darsinah " " Just try to learn the truth by

> > approaching a

> > > spiritual master. Inquire from him submissively and render

> service

> > unto him.

> > > The self-realized soul can impart knowledge unto you because

he

> > has seen the

> > > truth. "

> > >

> > > Another pertinent quote is in the glorious Srimad

> > Bhagavatam....chapter eleven,

> > > canto three, verse 21. " tasmad gurum prapadyeta, jijnasuh

sreya

> > uttamam, sabde

> > > pare ca nisnatam, brahmany upasamasrayam " Therefore, any

person

> > who seriously

> > > desires real happiness must seek a bon fide spiritual master

and

> > take shelter of

> > > him thru initiation. The qualification of a bona fide

spiritual

> > master is that

> > > he has realized the conclusions of the scriptures

> > > by deliberation and is able to convince others of these

> > conclusions. Such great

> > > personalities, who have taken shelter of the Supreme Godhead,

> > leaving aside all

> > > material considerations, should be understood to be bona fide

> > spiritual

> > > masters " .

> > >

> > > There are so many individuals who may say that guru is not

> > necessary, but the

> > > words of the Gita and the Bhagavatam are from the Lord

directly.

> > Sri Krsna says

> > > that a guru IS necessary. While I agree that it is true, Guru

is

> > everywhere,

> > > until an individual comes to the realized platform, of seeing

> the

> > presence of

> > > God in everything, at every moment, a diksha guru is necessary

> to

> > begin the

> > > students progress, and to guide him to enter into bhajan of

the

> > Lord.

> > >

> > > If someone is saying that initiation and guru is not

important,

> > perhaps that is

> > > true for him/her, but it is cheating to say that this is the

> case

> > for

> > > everyone....we are not all on the same level. So, such an

> > individual, who is

> > > unaware of the needs of others, he himself must also be in

need

> of

> > some

> > > instruction? A beginner on the path must be guided....and

> > ultimately, as each

> > > new level of awareness dawns on the student, the beauty of a

> truly

> > genuine

> > > student is that he/she always feels oneself to be a beginner,

> > though

> > > simultaneously that person knows within of his achievements.

It

> is

> > said of an

> > > uttama (topmost) adhikari, that he has to come

> > > down to the level of a madhyama (intermediate) adhikari in

order

> to

> > > preach.....as the uttama is seeing all souls acting perfectly,

> and

> > serving the

> > > Lord better than himself, due to his overwhelming and genuine

> > humility. In such

> > > a state, there is no need, no ability to preach to others. It

is

> > this

> > > personality that we must seek out, one who is seeing within

> their

> > heart the

> > > loving pastimes of the Divine couple, Sri Sri Radha and Krsna.

> Not

> > everyone

> > > may want to worship that particular aspect of the divine, that

> is

> > individual

> > > rasa, but the true guru understands this individuality, and

> > doesn't force

> > > anything foreign on a disciple, as is the case with Anupama in

> the

> > Caitanya

> > > Caritamrtra.....he had sold his head at the feet of Lord

> > Ramachandra, and could

> > > not give his full-hearted devotion to Lord Caitanya. Lord

> Caitanya

> > glorified

> > > him for his love and blessed him.

> > >

> > > respectfully yours,

> > > Mahalaksmi Dasi

> > >

> > > ------------------------------

--

> --

> > >

> > > How can someone be directed towards the Divine when all that

> exists

> > > is the Divine?

> > > Where one is being directed FROM and directed TO is the same,

it

> is

> > > the Divine only.

> > >

> > > Seeking is an impersonal action, it does not come from an

> > individual,

> > > it is the play of the Divine itself to lose sight of itself

and

> > this

> > > then gives rise to the action of seeking. Seeking is an action

> > > arising from No-thing, there is no seeker. The seeker is the

very

> > > illusion that is dispelled when all is seen to be the Divine

> only.

> > > Action arises as thinking and as sensation from No-thing,

there

> is

> > no

> > > thinker, no individual producing the feeings that appear.

There

> is

> > no

> > > individual. The concept that one is an individual continues as

> long

> > > as the seeking action arises, when it no longer arises it

ceases

> > NOT

> > > because of an apparent individuals action but because the

Divine

> > > simply no longer gives rise to the seeking action through that

> > > particular form. Nothing that the apparent individual does can

> > bring

> > > an end to the illusion of there being an individual. The

action

> of

> > > seeking and the ceasation of it are grace.

> > >

> > > With Love avasa

> > >

> > > " Adrian Meyers "

> > >

> > > ------------------------------

--

> --

> > -

> > >

> > > I read an essay on guru-Sishya, an elaboration of a couplet

from

> > > taittireeya upanishad, which goes like

> > >

> > > AcAryah poorva roopam, antEvAsyuttara roopam

> > > vidyA sandhih, pravacanam sandhAnam

> > >

> > > The author in elaborating this concept says that everything

> around

> > > us, whether a living being or otherwise, has the capacity of

> > > becoming a guru; that when one is ready to receive knowledge,

> > > everything around him becomes a Guru.

> > >

> > > Ramakrishna

> > > (Krishna Pillalamarri)

> > >

> > > ------------------------------

--

> --

> > -

> > >

> > > -Shri Hari-

> > >

> > > Rajendra J Bohra's down to earth no nonsense comment is one

that

> I

> > > wholly agree with.

> > >

> > > Regarding Shakti that permeates existence, it is a force that

is

> > > experienced, one does not need to believe in it, she can

> introduce

> > > herself, if the door to your soul is open. The burning desire

for

> > > the truth is a key it seems. ( I will put in a question that

was

> > asked, " Why so

> > > much pain " ), I am not sure but Gitaji 12:5 may explain, I read

> two

> > translations.

> > >

> > > People of the West as a rule, do not have the knowledge that is

> > > known in India, most people have never heard of the Bhagavad

> Gita,

> > and because

> > > of centuries of suppression of these matters they can fall

into

> > pitfalls. But

> > > help is always at hand, Paramatma is true to all.

> > >

> > > There is a term that is finding popular usage, 'Tipping

Point',

> it

> > is

> > > at that spiritual tipping point that the seeker steps forward

> > relying

> > > on Divine support, and it is their acknowledging and

understand

> > that

> > > this IS sacred that will save them from harm. It is at this

point

> > > that Gitaji 12:7 makes sense to me.

> > > Yes from then on Gurus appear, not necessarily one ,

> circumstances

> > > can be confusing often bewildering. Some people say they do

not

> > believe in

> > > coincidence, certainly too many things to be coincidence. The

> > Divine hand is

> > > clearly at work.

> > >

> > > With Respect and Divine Love,

> > >

> > > Mike

> > > (Mike Keenor)

> > >

> > > ------------------------------

--

> -

> > >

> > > Loving Divine,

> > > Pranam.

> > > Thanks to all for the beautiful satsang, enjoyed it all.

> Whatever I

> > > am going to say is just a little addition to it. The fact is,

> most

> > > of us are very weak in our determination to attain Godhood

> because

> > > of the difficulties faced in detaching ourselves from the

world.

> > > Also, we are very forgetful that all is God - vasudeva sarvam

> > > (including myself and others) & that is our biggest

mistake/sin.

> So

> > > I believe that it is also ok to have a human being as our Guru

> who

> > > can constantly remind us of who we are, how can we remain in

> touch

> > > with The Truth, some do's and don'ts, strengthen our will,

> motivate

> > > us, until we reach that oneness. Guru-Shishya paramparaa is

very

> > > sacred, those who have experienced it need no further

> explanation.

> > > I am very grateful to my Guru for everything. As stated already

> > > Guru-tatva (essence) is the same regardless from whom we

learn,

> as

> > > long as we are conscious of learning from other sources, & yes,

> > > ultimately, it all comes from the same, one & only source -

> > > God/Bhrahman/Paramaatmaa!

> > >

> > > I don't remember an exact story that I heard from Baba, so if

> > > someone knows it please elaborate, it is about Guru-Shishya.

> Either

> > > Shri Ashtavakra in Guru's role asked King Janak or King Janak

in

> > the

> > > role of Guru asked Shri Vyasji's son, first to give

gurudakshina

> > > (offerings given by disciple to guru at the end of his/her

study)

> > > before even the spiritual study began. The shishya was

surprised

> > > and asked why gurudakshina first? Guru said that once the so

> called

> > > shishya attains self-realization, who is guru and who is

shishya?

> > > From whom to collect gurudakshina? Guru and shishya become one

&

> > > the same! So the point is, until we are not in touch with who

we

> > > really are all is valid, but the minute we are self-realized,

all

> > > separateness/differences dissolve!

> > >

> > > Shri Vyasji beautifully describes this point in BG Chapter 10

> using

> > > actually Shri Krishna as his voice. Shri Krishna, [a human

being,

> > > whom Arjun has accepted as his guru (BG 2:7), helps resolve

> Arjun's

> > > doubts (BG 18:73) in his spiritual journey], is addressed as

> > Bhagwan

> > > (BG 2:2), Mahaan - great soul (BG 18:74), Yogeshwar - great

yogi

> > (BG

> > > 18:75/78) due to His attainment in spirituality. Shri Vyasji, a

> > > human being, is also addressed as Bhagwan, a great soul, due

to

> his

> > > attainment in spirituality as well (BG 18:75). In BG 10:37,

> Vyasji

> > > using Krishna's voice indicates that there is no difference

> between

> > > him & Shri Krishna and there is no difference between Shri

> Krishna

> > &

> > > Arjun (still an ignorant). Chapter 10 really helps expand our

> > > horizon, brings us out of our limited mentality and frees us

to

> be

> > > really how vast we are being children of God! But, like Arjun,

we

> > > need to continue with our efforts, study scriptures, take help

of

> > > guru/guide, do selfless act, follow all do's and don'ts,

> cultivate

> > > love, etc.; even though nothing is needed all is needed, until

we

> > > truly understand who we are! Just prior to a moment of

> realization,

> > > all carry some value but as soon as it dawns (like when a

switch

> is

> > > tuned on, darkness disappears immediately), all are dropped

> > > immediately, scriptures carry no meaning (BG 2:46), nothing

> remains

> > > to be done by I (selfless karma), the so difficult world just

> gets

> > > dropped (equanimity, peace), other than God nothing exist (true

> > > surrender), nothing remains to be said (Krishna-Arjun dialog

> ends).

> > > But until that aatma-gyaan is attained, one doesn't stop like

> > > Arjun!

> > >

> > > Even though we know we are all divine, children of the very

same

> > > God, we forget and in this forgetfulness we continue to commit

> many

> > > mistakes. Baba says mistakes are not for mistakes, they are for

> > > correction. So let's correct the very basic mistake by

> remembering

> > > God in our daily activities, let's be conscious of who is

> > performing

> > > these activities hiding within our body & then let God lead us

> the

> > > way He wants us to lead.

> > >

> > > humble regards,

> > > always at Thy Holy Feet

> > >

> > > Manjula Patel

> > >

> > > ------------------------------

--

> -

> > >

> > > In life, is it essential to have a Guru or not ? Please

provide a

> > > clear answer that is based on the scriptures (mainly Gita).

What

> > > has Gita written about need for Guru and Guru Parampara ?

> > >

> > > JINDAJI MAI GURU BANANA JARURI HAI YA NAAHI? ...SPASHT JAWAAB

> > DIJIYE

> > > GITA SE. GITA NE GURU BANANE KI JARURIYAAT AUR GURU

PARAMAPARAA

> KE

> > > BAARE MEIN KYAA LIKHAA HAI

> > >

> > > vyas.ramchandra

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Re: Please Clarify Message on Real Seeker and His Quest for

> > Liberation

> > >

> > >

> > > Jai Shri Krishna,

> > >

> > > It is not necessary at all to establish Guru-Shishya (Teacher

†"

> > > Student) relationship for progressing in the spiritual journey,

> > > instead our own intense curiosity, our own craving desire to

> > > liberate (Kalyaan) ONLY is extremely essential. Once a sadhak

> > > experiences such a craving desire for his Kalyaan, then he

gets

> the

> > > requisite material for spiritual progress through Parmaatma's

> > > grace, through discourses of realized souls, through

scriptures,

> > > through books, through any incidence or situation, through any

> > > atmosphere.

> > >

> > > There is a special force (Shakti) which is controlling the

entire

> > > world. When man believes the existence of such Shakti, then he

> > > diverts towards Parmaatma. Then Parmaatma Himself destroys the

> > > ignorance of such a man (Gitaji 10:11) and Parmaatma frees

such a

> > > man from the deathly sea of the world (Gitaji 12:7).

> > >

> > > From whomsoever one gets light (Prakaash), knowledge, his right

> > > path, his duty, his aim (Dhyeya), is Guru-Tatva. That Guru-

Tatva

> is

> > > residing within everyone. Whosoever is instrumental in

bringing

> out

> > > that Guru-Tatva should be considered Guru. Actually Parmaatma

is

> > > everyone's Guru because everyone gets knowledge, light from

Him

> > only.

> > >

> > > These days one should stay away from Gurus who force the

Shishya

> to

> > > worship the Guru, chant their name, take care of their bodies,

> > > require them to have their leftover food and water etc. because

> > > there is a great possibility of being cheated by them, like

> Sitaji

> > > (wife of Lord Rama) from Demon Ravan disguised as a sage.

> > >

> > > A renowned doctor can not treat his son or wife, but calls

> another

> > > doctor. Why, because of his attachment (Moha, Mamta) to his

> family.

> > > Only an outside doctor, who is not attached can treat well.

> > > Similarly, only unattached, impartial Saints can impart

> knowledge.

> > > It is very sad that today's Gurus say that you become my

> > > Shishya (disciple) then I will give you good knowledge. Such

> Gurus

> > > are actually slaves of the Shishyas (disciples).

> > >

> > > Actually, one does not have to make Guru. Guru just becomes.

> Anyone

> > > who knows more than us is our Guru, whether we believe it or

not.

> > >

> > > One does not have to search Guru. Just as when the fruit

ripes,

> the

> > > parrot comes on its own. Similarly, you get ready for getting

> > > liberation, Guru will come automatically.

> > >

> > > A real Guru is one who diverts people towards Parmaatma

instead

> of

> > > towards himself.

> > >

> > > " Krishnam Vande Jagatgurum "

> > >

> > > Narayana Narayana

> > >

> > > Rajendra J Bohra

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Re: Please Clarify Message on Real Seeker and His Quest for

> > Liberation

> > >

> > >

> > > Hari Om

> > >

> > > With reference to the message posted on the above subject and

> views

> > > of learned Saadhaks, I humbly submit that in this article

Swamiji

> > > has described the momentum to which a saadhak reaches when the

> true

> > > longing/ desire in him arises for salvation/ realisation. As

> > rightly

> > > concluded by Guru Charanji and Chitra Sriniji, here the

> intention

> > is

> > > to reflect that a true seeker does not stop at anything once

true

> > > longing/desire in him awakens. There are many other continuing

> > > examples given in the article to reflect this intention. You

are

> > > right that Guru/ Shishya parampara ( Spiritual Master /

Disciple

> > > tradition) is very pious and yielded great results in the past

to

> > > the saadhaks and disciples. But then, now, in this Kaliyuga,

we

> > find

> > > rather too many Gurus directing disciples more towards

themselves

> > > rather than towards Paramatma (God) and we notice that quite

> often,

> > > a seeker finds himself empty handed in the end, many times even

> > > cheated. It is those type of Gurus which are referred in this

> > > Article - not real , desireless, egoless Gurus carrying

> traditions

> > > of olden times.

> > >

> > > As regards the observation of Adrian Meyers, let me state that

> even

> > > Swamiji on many occasions stated/written in his articles that

> there

> > > are situations when realisation can take place without having

any

> > > previous interest or desire for it at all. Desire is a mean,

not

> an

> > > end. Yes, there is only enlightenment, all are already divine,

> and

> > > in the end (at final stage) this desire to realise Paramatma

also

> > > has to be relinquished by saadhak (Spiritual aspirant). You get

> > > Paramatma realisation ONLY when you are in a totally desire

less

> > > mode. In fact, in the last speech of Swamiji, which was posted

on

> > > this site during this month only (around 2nd/3rd July), there

is

> a

> > > confirmation of the views of Adrian Meyers.

> > >

> > > But that does not mean that a spiritual aspirant should not

> desire

> > > for Paramatma at the beginning of his journey. It is a must.

> > > Nothing can replace the role of intense desire for Paramatma in

> > > realisation. JUST AS: When you reach door steps of a temple/

> church

> > > etc, you relinquish/ leave your shoes, vehicle etc. outside

only

> > > e.g. you leave the very means of reaching to temple outside,

and

> go

> > > before the Paramatma deity all alone, SIMILARLY at the final

> stage

> > > of Paramatma Realisation you leave even the desire for

> realisation

> > > outside and go all alone - desireless! The fact that the

element

> > > (Essence) is ever existing is undeniable and there is nothing

in

> > the

> > > article which disputes this fact (rather there can never be a

> > denial

> > > of this fact in any article written by Swamiji). We ourselves

> > employ

> > > the word " REALISATION " and not " GETTING " , whenever we talk

about

> > > salvation etc. It is a fact that the element is already

received

> by

> > > us. It is realising/ discovering/ remembering an already

> available

> > > but forgotten thing. Hence there is no contradiction of any

sort

> > > whatsoever in the concept

> > >

> > > Here the article was not on the Paramatma Realisation, the

> article

> > > was on the means thereof viz. intense desire, the momentum

which

> an

> > > aspirant gathers in his journey, and the role of intense

desire

> as

> > > well as Satsanga (good company). There is nothing wrong,

> therefore,

> > > in the article or in the translation. It is accurate, not an

inch

> > > missing the mark, leave aside million miles or light years

> missing

> > > the mark. Not an inch in fact..

> > >

> > > Therefore, I would urge, in all humbleness to fellow aspirants

to

> > > appreciate the fact that these short messages are picked from

> > > Swamiji's books and are translated from Hindi to English as it

> is.

> > > Many times the messages are chosen with reference to one subtle

> > > principle only and the moderator stops translating further and

> > hence

> > > the totality of the article gets limited/suffers a need for

> > > explanation. That then is a reflection on the translator ONLY

> and

> > on

> > > the space constraints regarding the size of message ONLY. In

> > reality

> > > the latter reason is more operative. However, the translation

of

> > > this article, the text , tenor, intention is absolutely

> > blemishless.

> > > Please trust me, I am not moderator or translator, I am as

good a

> > > fellow saadhak as are all others like Adrian or Guru Charanji.

> > >

> > > With sincere respects and divine regards to all fellow Saadhaks

> > >

> > > Jai Shree Krishna

> > >

> > > Vyas N B

> > >

> > >

> > > , " sadhak_insight "

> > > The statement you have made here misses the mark by a million

> > miles.

> > > It does not in any way take into account the fact that many

come

> to

> > > realisation without having any previous interest OR desire for

> it

> > at

> > > all.

> > >

> > > There is ONLY enlightenment, all are already Divine, and the

> > seeking

> > > of this is the very thing that prevents the seeing of this

fact.

> > > There is ONLY the Divine including that idea that there is

other

> > > than the Divine.

> > > Avasa

> > > (Adrian Meyers)

> > > ----------------------------

> > >

> > > Namaskar,

> > >

> > > In your article you have mentioned that a sadhak having true

> > longing

> > > for his spiritual betterment will not last with a Guru if he is

> > > unable to attain salvation through Him.

> > >

> > > The above is totally in contradiction with the Guru-shishya

> > > parampara which Bharat is famous for. In fact if you take the

> > > history of many Saints including that of Adhishankaracharya

> > > (Gyanyogi) the role play of The Guru is what leads the Disciple

> > > towards ultimate liberation. It is in fact The Guru who

chooses

> his

> > > Disciple and not the other way around.

> > >

> > > And once accepted by a Guru, The Disciple just obeys his Guru's

> > > advice and with The Guru's grace attains Gyan, Bhakthi and

> > > Vairagya. Guru's grace alone guides him in his further

spiritual

> > > journey and leads him to Final liberation. (Mumukshatva)

> > >

> > > If a sadhak chooses to leave his Guru, it is not because of his

> > > intense yearning(tulmul) for liberation,(as you have

explained)

> but

> > > only due to his high ego, with which he will never realise his

> aim

> > > of self realisation. A true sadhak gets guidance from his

Guru,

> > even

> > > if the Guru has given away his gross body(sthula deha).

Because

> the

> > > disciple does 'adhnyapalan " of his Guru's words and becomes

more

> > and

> > > more introverted that the Nirgun Gurutatva starts guiding him

> from

> > > within. Ref (Path of Guru's Grace) vol-4 of Science of

> Spirituality

> > > published by Santan Sanstha.

> > >

> > > Please write your articles very clearly, without leaving room

for

> > > misinterpretations. What you have really wanted to convey in

your

> > > article is actually that a real seeker does not stop at

anything

> > > until he reaches his goal. But the message below gives

> > > out a completely different meaning.

> > >

> > > Gratitude.

> > > Gurucharni.

> > > Chitra Srini

> > >

> > > -----------------------------

> > > [sadhaka] All That is Needed is Intense Longing for

> > > Salvation (July 12, 2008)

> > > sadhaka

> > > Saturday, July 12, 2008, 5:00 AM

> > >

> > > :Shree Hari:

> > >

> > > 12th July, 2008, Saturday

> > > Aashaad Shukla Navami, Vikram Samvat 2065, Shanivar

> > >

> > > A Sadhak (Spiritual Aspirant) who has a true longing for his

> > > spiritual betterment and salvation, will not last anywhere

> without

> > > attaining salvation. If he finds a Guru, but is unable to

attain

> > > salvation through him, then he will not last with that Guru.

If

> he

> > > becomes a sadhu (ascetic), but still does not attain

salvation,

> > then

> > > there too he will not last long. If he joins an organization,

> there

> > > too he will not last. Until a hungry man, does not get food,

how

> > > can he rest? If there is deep and intense longing for

salvation,

> > > he will be unable to stay put anywhere. Staying put is simply

not

> > > in his hands. He will stay rested, only where his deep

spiritual

> > > longing is fulfilled.

> > >

> > > Out of great fortune and luck, one receives satsang

(association

> > > with truth) - " Bade bhaag paayib satsangaa " (Manasa. Utter.

> 33:4).

> > > But in that same scripture (granth) that writes about great

> > fortune,

> > > it is also written, " Jehi ke Jehi per satya sanehu. So tehi

> > > milayee ne kachu sandehu. " (Manasa., Baal. 259:3). One who has

a

> > > real and intense longing for spiritual truths, will certainly

> > > receive real satsang (association of good company, Truth).

> > >

> > > He who has a real longing for salvation, he will receive the

> > > opportunity for salvation and spiritual betterment - there is

no

> > > doubt about it. In this matter, it is not about one's luck or

> > > fortune.

> > >

> > > In worldly matters such as acquisition of wealth, it is

> essential

> > to

> > > have three things.

> > > 1) Desire for wealth,

> > > 2) Effort to acquire the wealth and

> > > 3) Luck (fortune).

> > >

> > > But God Realization is possible by mere longing / desiring.

This

> > > human body has been received for the purpose of God

Realization.

> If

> > > God is not attained, than how did this human body in anyway,

aid

> in

> > > achieving this aim and purpose? Thus, by giving up worldly

> desires,

> > > exclusively awaken within the inquiry into the Self (Atma) or

> > awaken

> > > within an intense longing for God Realization. In this is the

> > > success of human life.

> > >

> > > From " Mere Toh Giridhar Gopal, Dusero ne Koyi, " in Hindi pg 19

by

> > > Swami Ramsukhdasji Maharaj.

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

Please kindly confine your responses to the question posed only !!!

Any personal remarks over the knowledge of any sadhak or about the

stage at which any sadhak is standing in his quest / sadhna /

spiritual journey - must not be included in your posting, as that

may not be true and appropriate and liked by sadhaks. Also, there

should not be any sarcasm towards fellow sadhaks in this

spiritual learning and sharing.

 

If these conditions are not met, the responses will not be posted.

 

We have concluded on this question as specifically asked, and will

be addressing new topics now.

 

From Gita Talk Moderator

 

-

Hari Om

 

It is so divine and good to be part of this group where a real Jnana

Yagya as per Gita is taking place.

 

Here I may clarify that the actual question was that whether as per

Gita, Guru - Disciple tradition is ESSENTIAL for Paramatma / Self

Realisation or not. This was the question. (Fellow sadhaks may track

back the question).

 

Now this question had four ingredients/boundaries :

 

1) As per Gita

2) " Essential " .

3) For Self/ Paramatma realisation and

4) Guru Shishya Parampara / tradition of preceptor - disciple

relationship (as glorified by the Scriptures and even by Lord

Krishna in Gita 4:34, equally powerfully in 13:7 also.)

 

Hence the answers / opinions must keep in view these four

ingredients / boundaries - quite naturally and appropriately. Every

paticipant is duty bound in this respect.

 

Question was not whether or not a Guru is " desirable " for a striver-

it was not on the glorification related with Guru also. It was

also not distinguishing among various paths available to an aspirant

viz Jnana/ Bhakti/ Karma/ Dhyaan Yoga (meditation) etc. Moreover

the question was directly related with tradition of preceptor-

disciple relationship. It was not on the Guru alone element, it was

on a tradition, on a cotractual relationship. On the top of it, the

question was related with self-realisation and knowlege connected

therewith only and not with the world and the worldly knowledge.

 

With these ingredients and boundaries entailing the question, the

opinion that Guru-Shishya Parampara is not essential as per Gita for

self realisation is a perfect opinion, and is also my opinion -

based on my limited knowledge and belief.

 

However, I have no hesitation in stating here that each of the

aforesaid boundaries of the actual question posed, has a very strong

and independent bearing on the final answer - except the

ingredient (i)- as per Gita ( you may include any number of

scriptures, the answer would be the same - whatever is that answer)..

 

I hope I have clarified regarding my two responses to the question.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

 

 

, " sadhak_insight "

<sadhak_insight wrote:

>

> SHREE HARI

> RAM RAM

>

> In future, long postings will be cut out at the discretion of the

Moderator or they may not be posted. Please limit postings to a

maximum of one (book) page.

> Thank you,

> Gita-Talk Moderator.

> ------------------------------

>

> In life, is it essential to have a Guru or not?

>

> This questions has been raised in different forms at various times

> in this forum.

>

> Following is what I understand with the terms guru and disciple in

> their isolation as we start thinking from the perspective of our

> perceptional discrepancy.

>

> Guru: Source of knowledge, a never-changing entity.

>

> Disciple: Receiver of knowledge, an ever-changing entity.

>

> NOW … can there be anything without GURU? Could anyone have uttered

> a word without a guru? Could anyone have put a step forward without

> a guru? Could there be a single action or thought that had no guru?

> THEREFORE, THE QUESTION IS REDICULOUS. The observation – the Guru

> and Shisya relationship is old concept and no more relevant in the

> present age. Most of the time, Shisya knows more than the Guru – is

> absolutely baseless.

>

> Knowledge in our perception is to receive new information …

> ignorance in our perception is the obsolete information junked in

> our memory. You cannot receive new valid information on anything

> unless you accept that the corresponding information you have saved

> in your memory is obsolete. Often, we ignorantly imagine that

> ignorance is lack of some information without realizing that we

> could not perceive anything if it has no bearing on our earlier

> experiences. The source of valid information is the guru and the

> junkyard of obsolete information is the student. The force that

> validates the newer information is The Guru within. The recipient

of

> the newer information is the student. Therefore, anything that

> perceives can only be a student. It can never be a guru.

>

> Student can never be greater than Guru as such since a guru should

> relatively have more valid information than a student by

definition.

> The identity of Guru may change … not of the concept.

>

> Whether we know or not, whether we like it or not, all the

> information that we seem to proudly own happens to be borrowed from

> everything other than ourselves. The instant we think we know

better

> than our guru, we forfeit our right to call ourselves his students.

> The instant we declare we know, we forfeit our studenthood as such.

> That is the worst thing that is possible to happen to any seeker.

>

> Knowledge is a perpetual process of acknowledging ignorance within

…

> in other words, one can earn the right to receive knowledge only by

> an acceptance of the ignorance harbored within and through a

> resolution to purge the same.

>

> A difference of opinion is insufficient to judge whether I know

more

> than others. In fact, can anybody know more than any other? It is

an

> incorrect notion because … (1) The Knowledge does not belong to

> anybody; (2) nobody can ever assess what another could possible

know

> and (3) more than anything else, nobody really knows how much

he/she

> knows in the first place! In other words The Knowledge is

> immeasurable. Therefore any comparison based on knowledge is

> lopsided in itself. But, a difference of opinion certainly

> establishes that one harbors the same is definitely incapable of

> appreciating an opposing view point on the same point and hence is

> ignorant to that extent. A difference of opinion certainly brings

> out one's ignorance for inspection. One should capitalize on such

> opportunities to examine one's own ignorance. One becomes a self-

> assisin if one resorts to twist such opporutinies to establish

> other's ignorance because (1) one has missed a great opportunity to

> unveil oneself in the first place and (2) one has veiled more

opaque

> costumes by intensifying one's own ignorance in the process. One

> should keep in mind that one can never establish ignorance in

others

> just for one's incapability of penetrating anything beyond its

> superficial presence. Even if one does, it cannot do anything good

> within.

>

> Greatness is not in being a Guru as the Guru forfeits freedom to

> learn or unlearn! Greatness is in being a student as student alone

> retains freedom to learn and unlearn!! That is why students are

kept

> at high esteem in all our scriptures. Often the gurus are obscure

> and referred directly to cosmic forces in the name of gods.

>

> In our traditional learning system, there are only students

> communicating to each other their learning each considering the

> other as guru. Learning is a life-long process for a true student.

>

> All scripts always make statement such as " let us learn

> together " , " let us explore together " , and so on. Learning is a

> collective process between multiple individuals.

>

> " I know " is the furtile seed of ignorance … " I know better " is the

> fertile soil of ignorance. I know the best is the furtile fruit of

> ignorance which enseeds itself perpetually. No sane saint will ever

> say I am a Guru … e.g. Ram Sukhdasji never let anybody touch his

> feet or worship him. A true sadhaka is an eternal student of

> everything in life.

>

> One who thinks to know better than the other will forfeit a chance

> to learn. One who thinks the other knows better can learn. The

> knowledge always flows from a higher plane to a lower plane just

> like water. You cannot receive the nectar of water to sustain your

> existence unless you are at a lowere elevation than the source of

> water. You cannot receive the nectar of knowledge to sustain your

> soul unless you position yourself lower than the source of

knowledge

> which is everything.

>

> Craving for students (in other words, to be a Guru) is the

weakness.

> Urging for a Guru (in other words, maintaining oneself as a

student)

> is the strength. A true seeker always seeks the association of true

> students. Any other seeker is definitely a guru for a true seeker.

> In fact everything is nothing but The Guru for a true seeker. That

> is why they say " Guru will seek you if your yearning for learning

is

> pure and strong " . No true seeker can announce himself as the guru

to

> us. No true seeker can ever wield the ignorance of not seeing the

> guru in anything in life. It is student's responsibility to locate

> The Guru in the fellow sadhkas, rather, in everything around.

>

> One has no choice but to receive the grace of The Guru actively or

> passively, knowingly or unknowingly, wantingly or unwantingly.

> Everything is born with The Guru embedded in its core to achieve

> this task. In a way, everything is a guru as well as a disciple.

> Therefore, guru and disciple are nothing but The Same. One who

seeks

> the guru in everything seeks The Guru within and becomes one with

> the same. The eternal learner is the only eternal knower. One who

> sees ONLY GURU AND NOTHING ELSE in the whole universe remains the

> Eternal Student and is verily THE JAGADGURU as such.

>

> Respects

>

> Naga Narayana

>

>

> ----------------------------

>

> Dear readers, this foolish jiva would beg your indulgence to

> consider a few

> points on the matter of accepting guru....in the Srimad bhagavatam,

> 11.3.21...this verse is given....tasmad gurum prapadyeta, jijnasuh

> sreya uttamam, sabde pare ca nisnatam, brahmany

> upasamasrayam....... " Therefore any person who seriously desires

real

> happiness must seek a bona fide spiritual master and take shelter

of

> him thru initiation. The qualification of a bona fide spiritual

> master is that he has realized the conclusions of the scriptures

> by deliberation and is able to convince others of these

> conclusions. Such great personalities, who have taken shelter of

> the Supreme Godhead leaving aside all material considerations,

> should be understood to be bona fide spiritual masters. "

>

> We deep respect and reverence, I acknowledge that many individuals

> may indeed have a strong relationship with Paramatma.....but this

is

> different from understanding of Bhagavan. The word Bhagavan

> indicates the Supreme Person who is full in six opulences....all

> knowledge, all strength, all fame, all wealth, all beauty, and all

> renunciation. These qualities are attributed to the Supreme

> Person, who is described in the Vedas by the nomenclature " Sri

> Krsna " . If one has no desire to know Sri Radha and Krsna

> personally, this may or may not be considered a fault depending on

> one's point of view/faith. We all choose what level of service to

> the Lord we desire.... Paramatma level of God realization is

> a very high state of awareness/God consciousness....for some this

is

> perfect, and my deepest respects and folded palms to those on this

> level. However, the three levels of God realization are compared

> to the 3 levels of understanding the sun globe....the rays

> of the sun are to Brahman realization, the observation of the

> sunglobe being in the sky is to Paramatma awareness, and Bhagavan

> realization is compared to actually being able to enter into the

sun

> globe itself, to know its inhabitants, Vivasvan and others, and to

> be part of that domain. (this is substantiated in the Srimad

> Bhagavatam 1.2.11

> vadanti tat tattva-vidas

> tattvam yaj jnanam advayam

> brahmeti paramatmeti

> bhagavan iti sabdyate......

> " Learned transcendentalists who know the

> Absolute Truth call this nondual substance Brahman, Paramatama or

> Bhagavan. "

>

> Paramatma is an expansion from Sri Krsna, specifically to guide

> the jiva in this world, and to remember all our actions and thereby

> give us the resultant reactions. He is in the hearts of all, and to

> love Him and serve Him is a glorious state of being. In order to

> attain the higher realm of God realization, of entering into the

> loving pastimes of Sri Krsna and His eternal associates, (when

> Paramatma appears externally before the sadhak) to accept an

> uttama=adhikari Guru is not just a consideration.....it is an

> absolute necessity, as referenced in the verse from the Bhagavatam

> above. (I could list dozens of verses, but space restraints

> prevent) Just as in this world, one will not be able very well to

> meet with any great personality unless introduced by

> someone else who is close to that person, so guru takes the

position

> of introducing us to Sri Radha and Krsna, and freeing us from the

> ego to the degree that we can enter into Their company. Not

> everyone is meant for this....perhaps in a million births I may

be

> fortunate enough to even begin to desire, what to speak of have the

> qualifications.....I therefore humbly applaud those who have loving

> close sentiments for Paramatma in the heart.

> Also, I would like to mention, it is not an external affair,

this

> initiaion/acceptance of guru. So many so-called disciples go for

> their fire yajna....offer some daksin, chant prayers....but their

> heart has not been offered. So, one cannot know very easily who

is a true disciple, for the formalities will not display the

exchange of the heart.

>

> Respectfully,

> Mahalakmsi Dasi

>

>

> ---------------------------

> Hari Om

>

> I am glad to add a few words regarding Guru.

>

> " ajnaana Timiraandhasya jnaanaanjana shalaakaya

> Chakshurunmeelitam ena tasmai sree gurave namah " he is the remover

> of the layer of ignorance by knowledge and gives the eye of wisdom.

> Even to say a letter, mother, the first guru teaches the child. All

> the schooling would be useless if a guru is not needed.

> all universities have to be closed. Any body who teaches any thing

I

> did not know and made it known to me is a guru.

> If in this world of materials we need the help of a guru, what to

> talk of 'Paramaartha jnaana'.

> Rare few like Bhagavan Ramana did not need a Guru. But most of us

> never reach any where without a Guru.

> Those Lucky few please donot misguide the ordinary folks like

myself

> denying the need for a guru.

> Any body can be a guru, a book, a friend, mother, father,teacher,

> etc. It all depends on ones own vision of such.

> If one denies guru's guidance in life ONE is forgetting ones own

> mother. Let us remember what all our godly mother taught us.

> to eat, to walk, to talk and even talk back and all the rest for

> ones growth.

> For a spiritual seaker a GURU

> is " GururBrahma,gururvishnuh,gururdevomaheshvarah,gurureva param

> Brahma " . Hail that Guru who is none other than Lord alone to keep

us on the right path to raech HIM.

> Love

> Nagaraju

> (Marigowda Nagaraju)

>

>

>

>

>

>

> , " sadhak_insight "

> <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> >

> > Jai Shri Krishna,

> >

> > The issue actually is whether there is a need for Guru-Shishya

> > Parampara (Preceptor – Disciple Tradition).

> >

> > As per Gitaji, there can be only two Gurus – Conscience (Viveka)

> or

> > Parmaatma.

> >

> > Gitaji 6:5, 6:6 & 4:38 declare in no uncertain terms that Self

> only

> > can liberate Self. If Parmaatma has given us human birth, then he

> > has also given us sufficient material to realize Him. Hence,

there

> > is no need of some one else (and some thing else) for realizing

> > Parmaatma. Actually, conscience, Parmaatma, Guru is present

within

> > Self, but due to our attachment to the perishable, material world

> we

> > are unable to identify the same.

> >

> > Gitaji does not espouse the idea of making Preceptor or Disciple.

> > One is Guru of himself and therefore, he has to give discourse to

> > himself. When all is Parmaatma (Vaasudevah Sarvam / 7:19), then

> who

> > will become Guru and to whom the discourses will be given.

> > `Uddharedatmnatmanam' (Gita 6:5) LITERALLY means instead of

> finding

> > mistakes in others, find our own mistakes and try to alleviate

the

> > same.

> >

> > Krishna confirms in Gita 3:23 that every one follows His path.

> > Parmaatma incarnates from time to time to teach man the way of

> > living in this world. Further, Krishna confirms that He only is

> the

> > Guru of all Demigods and all Great Sages, by all means (Gitaji

> > 10:2). Arjuna also tells Krishna that You only are everyone's

Guru

> > (Gitaji 11:37 and 11:43).

> >

> > Therefore, a spiritual aspirant (Sadhak) does not have to search

a

> > Guru. He simply has to consider Krishna as his Guru according

> > to `Krishnam Vande Jagatgurum' and pursue his Sadhana according

to

> > Gitaji, which is Krishna's voice (Vaani), His hymn (Mantra). If

he

> > will feel the necessity of some spiritual master from worldly

> point

> > of view then Krishna, Jagatguru, will make him meet the Guru;

> > because He says `Yogakshema Vahamiaham' in (Gitaji 9:22).

> >

> > Krishnam Vande Jagatgurum.

> >

> > Narayana Narayana

> >

> > Rajendra J. Bohra

> >

> > --------------------------------

--

> --

> > , " sadhak_insight "

> > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Hari Om

> > >

> > > Oh , What a divine shape this deliberation has taken !

Satsanga,

> > and

> > > Group discussion has its own divinity ! Afterall, it is JNANA

> > YAGYA

> > > as per Gitaji.

> > >

> > > Gita - 4:34 can not be said to be confirming that Guru Shishya

> > > Parampara is mandatory or even necessary for SELF REALIZATION.

> Let

> > > us examine that:-

> > >

> > > " Learn that by your obeisance humble reverence , by

questioning

> > and

> > > by your service : the wise who have realized the truth , will

> > > instruct thee , in that knowledge (jnana) "

> > >

> > > That is all 4:34 says. What does the preceptor do here? He can

> > > merely teach the disciple regarding the unreal world. In fact

> from

> > > the preceptor, a disciple does not gain knowledge about the

> self,

> > > but he gains knowledge about the world. When a striver comes to

> > know

> > > the truth about the unreal world, his affinity for the world ,

> MAY

> > (

> > > depending upon the determination of striver and striver only)

> get

> > > renounced and he realizes the self, which is self evident.. The

> > > term " Upadekshyanti " (instruct) means, that the great souls

> > instruct

> > > a striver, (nothing more) but it is not necessary that he

should

> > > attain self realization. Ultimately it is the FAITH which get

> you

> > > realization. Where has it been written that it is compulsory ?

> > > Entire world comes to the rescue and help of that person who

has

> > > turned towards the Paramatma. Even Mother Nature becomes

> > especially

> > > inclined to help such person. Each and everything which happens

> in

> > > his life becomes his Guru. The Law of Karma accelerates to

> destroy

> > > all his past sins in a super fast manner. Grace of Paramatma

> > starts

> > > giving him the way. Gurus start coming to him as if guided by a

> > > natural force. Rishi Dattatreya, as per Bhagavatam, counted 24

> > Gurus

> > > from whom he received knowledge, without these 24 people (

> > including

> > > a prostitute, some animals also) even knowing that some one has

> > > considered them to be Guru ! That is what is element called

> Guru..

> > >

> > > The same Lord therefore in the same Gita, in the same Chapter 4

> > also

> > > tells to the same Arjuna that :-

> > >

> > > " Verily, nothing purifies in this world, like knowledge

(jnana).

> > He

> > > who has been perfected in Yoga fully finds it AUTOMATICALLY and

> > > POSITIVELY in the SELF " (Gita 4:38)

> > >

> > > Here the words employed should be read carefully. Here Lord

> > declares

> > > that a Karma Yogi having become perfected in Yoga, gains this

> > > knowledge POSITIVELY (assuredly). The term " kalena " used in

this

> > > verse, needs special attention. The Lord has used the third

> > > inflexion, which means that through Karma Yoga, one certainly

> > gains

> > > knowledge of the SELF, or realizes Paramatma. The term " svayam "

> > > (self generated), shows that a Yogi gains the knowledge of the

> > self,

> > > while performing his duty, without the guidance of a Guru, or

> the

> > > scriptures or any other means. AUTOMATIC ! Leave aside , Guru -

> > even

> > > accepting the existence element called " Paramatma " is not

> > necessary

> > > in Self realization through the paths of Karma Yoga and Jnana

> > Yoga.

> > > It is not necessary at all! That is the justice of Paramatma.

> That

> > > is the grace of Paramatma. That is the power of SELF.

> > >

> > > Now let us come to Arjuna's uttering of the word " shishya " in

> 2:7.

> > > Here he also stated that " I surrender to you " . At that point

> > Arjuna

> > > was too blind, too grief stricken to talk sense at all. I have

> > > constraints of space, otherwise I can give a whole list of what

> > > Arjuna told to Krishna upto this verse and how Krishna

> ruthlessly

> > > proved him not only wrong but proved that he was talking just

> > > reverse of what was reality. (If some sadhak is interested, he

> can

> > > post a question) It was the stupidity of Arjuna that made

> Krishna

> > > laugh freely and then started the real Gita. Stupidity –

because

> > on

> > > one hand Arjuna said that I surrender to you. On other hand in

> the

> > > very next verse and in 2:9, he said " I will not fight " . Now one

> > who

> > > surrenders, does he get right to say so ? No ! If you read

18:66

> > > which sets the definition of surrender - categorical No ! In

2:7

> > > itself Arjuna tells " I Surrender and now teach me " . This is not

> > the

> > > principle of surrender. Once you have surrendered, whether

> Krishna

> > > teaches you, or does not teach you, is not your prerogative at

> > all.

> > > Hence 2:7 neither establishes Guru Shishya parampara nor

> > establishes

> > > principles of surrender. It was a grief stricken Arjuna,

> uttering

> > > sense lessly the words which came to his mind - making Krishna

> > > laugh ! ! Krishna never accepted " preceptorship " vis a vis

> > Arjuna !

> > > He in fact later on called him to be his friend - which was how

> > > Krishna took the relationship. In fact as late as upto verse

> 18:59

> > > Krishna did not believe Arjuna to be either disciple or

> > surrendered.

> > >

> > > There is no need of a Guru even for renouncing the affinity

with

> > the

> > > world. Use of conscience is more than enough. If we just

respect

> > our

> > > conscience, keep doing our duties in the world and remember

> always

> > > that we do not belong to this world, we in due course of time

> will

> > > get automatically liberated. Nothing else is needed. Had it

been

> > in

> > > the hands of Saints and Sages, the world would not have been in

> > the

> > > shape it is today. A great Paramatma realized soul wants entire

> > > humanity to get liberated. But is the SELF and SELF alone who

> has

> > to

> > > initiate and get initiated. Consider the example of EKLAVYA. He

> > took

> > > the Guru Tattwa (Element) not the body made of bones and flesh.

> > Even

> > > Lord Krishna could not liberate the entire humanity when He

> > > incarnated. You, yourself, have to be willing. What a Guru can

> do,

> > > unless the disciple is accepting him?. There is Guru already

> > sitting

> > > in you, CONSCIENCE. If some body cares to find out what

> > > characteristics the person to be called as " preceptor " / Guru

> > should

> > > possess in order to fall with in the ambit of Gita 4:34, one

> will

> > > perhaps have to spend whole life only in finding and locating

> him.

> > > In this yuga it will be very difficult to find him. Paramatma

> > cannot

> > > be that arbitrary, to provide that who ever finds such a great

> > soul

> > > only can realize me, and no body else. The element called Guru

> > > becomes essential only if there is an express provision in the

> > > Scriptures to that effect. There is Guru element in everything,

> > even

> > > in a stone, even in a mountain if one has faith.

> > >

> > > Jai Shree Krishna

> > >

> > > Vyas N B

> > > ------------------------------

--

> -

> > >

> > > ------------------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > , " sadhak_insight "

> > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > -Shree Hari-

> > > >

> > > > I think there can be trouble in translation, and these

> > > > interpretations can be coloured by the interpreters inner

> > beliefs.

> > > > Looking at two different sources in English Translation A &

B :

> > > >

> > > > Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual

master.

> > > > Inquire from him submissively and render service unto him.

The

> > > self-

> > > > realized souls can impart knowledge unto you because they

have

> > seen

> > > > the truth. [4.34](Trans.A)

> > > >

> > > > Know that by long prostration, by question and by service,

the

> > wise

> > > > who have realised the Truth will instruct you in (that)

> > > > knowledge.[4.34](Trans.B)

> > > >

> > > > As all surrender unto Me, I reward them accordingly. Everyone

> > > follows

> > > > My path in all respects, O son of Pritha. [4.11(Trans.A)]

> > > >

> > > > In whatever way men approach me, even so do I reward them; my

> > path

> > > do

> > > > men tread in all ways, Arjuna![4.11(Trans.B)]

> > > >

> > > > But note :

> > > > One must deliver himself with the help of his mind, and not

> > degrade

> > > > himself. The mind is the friend of the conditioned soul, and

> his

> > > > enemy as well. [6.5](Trans.A)(I have a problem with mind,

self

> > > seems

> > > > more appropriate).

> > > >

> > > > Let a man lift himself by his own Self alone; let him not

lower

> > > > himself, for this self alone is the friend of oneself and

this

> > self

> > > > alone is the enemy of oneself.6.5](Trans.B)

> > > >

> > > > Without being overly pedantic B.G. 6.5 Translation A & B are

> in

> > > clear

> > > > agreement. I also read this as a directive.

> > > >

> > > > However there seems to be a greyness between A & B in B.G.

> 4.34,

> > but

> > > > what is clear to me is Krishna is not pointing to a single

> > > > Guru,(Especially translation B) I would take this to be

advice

> > > > given.(Just try.../ Know that..).

> > > >

> > > > As for B.G. 4.11 , I read that all humanity will come to

> > Krishna

> > > by

> > > > their own chosen path.

> > > >

> > > > Beyond this is experience, to me that is the final litmus

test

> to

> > > > clarify the mind.

> > > >

> > > > With Respect and Divine Love.

> > > >

> > > > Mike

> > > > (Mike Keenor)

> > > > ----------------------------

--

> --

> > -

> > > > Shree Hari

> > > > Ram Ram

> > > >

> > > > Swamiji has conveyed some very key messages regarding the

> > subject,

> > > > many have been covered, yet I will attempt to summarize a few

> > > points, by His grace -

> > > >

> > > > 1) If you accept God as Guru, your work is completed. In

God,

> > you

> > > > will receive everything.

> > > >

> > > > 2) Swamiji says that Gita 4:34 is not indicating that you

must

> > > > engage in a formal Guru - Disciple relationship and receive

> > formal

> > > > initiation. When one goes to a realized, great Soul,

> prostrates

> > at

> > > > his feet (surrenders to him), does all activities according

to

> > his

> > > > instructions, and expresses one's keen quest and inquiry into

> the

> > > > essential nature, then the Guru (tattva), will instruct the

> > > aspirant in the essential knowledge of Truth, without even

> > engaging

> > > in a formal Guru-Disciple relation.

> > > >

> > > > 3) Liberation is from one's own inner and intense longing,

not

> > by

> > > making someone a Guru. Until that deep longing, that intensity,

> > that

> > > quest for salvation is not awakened within one's self, till

that

> > > time, even God Himself cannot free one, then how will a Guru be

> > able

> > > to do so ?

> > > >

> > > > 4) Great Souls come in to this world, to bring human beings

> > close

> > > to

> > > > God, not to get people attracted to and involved in

themselves

> > > > instead. One who attracts others towards himself (to worship

> > him,

> > > to

> > > > meditate on him etc) is a deceitful imposter.

> > > >

> > > > 5) Guru is the essence (tattva, element), Guru is not a human

> > > > being. To see a Guru in a human being and to see a human

being

> > in a

> > > > Guru is a crime.

> > > >

> > > > 6) A great soul is never restricted to the body, therefore

why

> > the

> > > > worship of the physical aspects? As far as possible one must

> stay

> > > > far away from and escape safely away from one who gets others

> to

> > > > worship him, meditate on body made of flesh and bones, recite

> > his

> > > name, eating his leftover morsels, etc. etc., because in this

> > there

> > > is a great likelihood of being cheated and these things

becoming

> > an

> > > obstacle in worship of God. One should worship the form of God

> > > alone, one must meditate on God alone, one must make an

offering

> > of

> > > food to God alone.

> > > >

> > > > 7) As stated in the scriptures - " Uma Ram sum hit jag naahi;

> > Guru

> > > pitu maatu bandhu prabhu naahi. "

> > > > " In this Universe their is no one, neither Guru (teacher),

nor

> > > > father, nor mother, nor brother who is our well-wisher, as

God

> > is. "

> > > >

> > > > 8) God, even though being a Universal Guru, does not make

> anyone

> > > > his disciple (chela). He only makes them his comrade and

> friend.

> > > > Arjun is only accepting His guidance. It is his reverence for

> > Shri

> > > Krishna that makes him say he is a sishya.. but Krishna does

not

> > say

> > > that you are my formal chella... Shri Krishna - Arjun dialogue

> did

> > > not require a formal initiation or Guru-disciple relationship

to

> > > receive guidance.

> > > >

> > > > Other points -

> > > >

> > > > 9) Those Gurus that have desire to make disciples can never

> ever

> > > > become Gurus.

> > > >

> > > > 10) Individuals that transact or trade their teachings are

not

> > > real Gurus. Those that say - first become my disciple

(student),

> > > then I will reveal to you the path towards God Realization, are

> > like

> > > traders of God and an item traded is of less value than the

> listed

> > > price.

> > > >

> > > > 11) It is a sad thing that on becoming a disciple, one

becomes

> > > > allured, develops attachment, and when this delusion sets

> > > > in, both guru and disciple take a fall - " Guru Lobhi, Shishya

> > > > Laalchi, dono khele daav Dono dooba parasram, baith patther

ki

> > > naav. "

> > > >

> > > > 12) Particularly for a devotee who has taken refuge in God

> > > (sharanagat bhakta), God Himself takes care of all the needs

of

> > the

> > > devotee including spiritual upliftment and liberation. Gita

> 4:34

> > > only is in reference to a seeker of knowledge, not a devotee

who

> > has

> > > taken refuge in God. The Bhakti yoga chapters are Ch 7-12 do

not

> > > address this subject at all.

> > > >

> > > > 13) Please think about this. " Krishnam Vande Jagatgurum. " God

> is

> > > the

> > > > Guru of this entire Universe and you are in this Universe.

Lord

> > > > Krishna's mantra is - " Bhagavad Gita " . Contemplate on the

> Gita

> > and

> > > > live by it, and attain salvation.

> > > >

> > > > There is so much more on this subject... in light of the

> group's

> > > > guidelines, I will stop here.

> > > >

> > > > Meera das

> > > > Ram Ram

> > > >

> > > > ----------------------------

--

> --

> > -

> > > > Loving Divine,

> > > > Pranam.

> > > >

> > > > This email is in response to the need for a Guru. As I have

> > > > indicated before & many others have also listed that the

Guru-

> > > tattva

> > > > (essense) is one & the same in all then why this big fuss

> about

> > not

> > > > having human guru? Whether we learn from bird, animal, sky,

> > earth,

> > > > human or any creature, what difference does it make, after

all

> > > guru-

> > > > tattva is the same, isn't it? Everything flows from the same

> > > source

> > > > so everything in this creation is capable of teaching us

> > something.

> > > > We are not conscious of ourselves & surroundings around us

but

> we

> > > > are not completely unaware or ignorant either. We all learn

> > > > differently - some learn by listening or looking or touching

or

> > > > experimenting - all senses are involved or one can also learn

> > just

> > > > by silencing their senses, etc. So when we have a teacher to

> > teach

> > > > us various subjects why not to teach spirituality, the most

> > > > essential of all subjects of our life? I wanted to clarify

> some

> > > > misunderstanding people have. Guru is a must regardless in

> which

> > > > form it comes but relationship with that form is dangerous!

> Do

> > you

> > > > understand what I am trying to say? For us to feel

> comfortable

> > in

> > > > our learning, we may establish relationship and that is ok

too

> > but

> > > > to remain attached to it is the problem. Please understand

the

> > > > subtleties of this aspect. I think when I read Swamiji's

> > message,

> > > I

> > > > felt his whole concern is people leaving their families to

> break-

> > > off

> > > > relationships and they establish another relationship (as

they

> > just

> > > > can't truly drop the relationship) with their guru (another

> form)

> > > > and between these 2 relationships, there is no difference.

> One

> > is

> > > > still attached. All relationships need to be dropped,

> including

> > > > guru-disciple and it happens only when guru-disciple become

> one

> > and

> > > > the same. If only one exist where is relationship? In

> physical

> > > > relationships we are bound but when the learning happens

> without

> > > > this bondage, it is just a pure learning and when one is at

> this

> > > > level, one is learning from all creation, not just human

guru.

> > > >

> > > > Shri Ramkrishna Paramhamsa had Totapuri as his guru to lead

> him

> > to

> > > > his final formless stage. Lord Rama had 2 human gurus - Shri

> > > > Valmiki and Sage Vashishtha. Shri Krishna had 3 human Gurus

> in

> > His

> > > > life - Gargaachaarya (kul-guru), Rishi Sandipani (in whose

> > > > ashram/hermitage He stayed from childhood), and Sage Ghor

> Angiras

> > > > (Yoga/Spiritual Guru). So now tell me if Krishna had 3 human

> > > gurus,

> > > > how can He oppose having a Guru??? There are events listed

of

> > Rama

> > > > & Krishna serving (physically) their gurus with their utmost

> love

> > > > and reverence and thus acquiring all vidya (knowledge). In

BG

> > 2:7,

> > > > Arjun says guide me I am your shishya. BG 3:34-36, Lord says

> > serve

> > > > gyaani (one who knows The Truth). BG 4:1, Bhagwan talks

about

> > > > teaching karma yoga to Sun to Manu to Ikshvaku. In BG4:2,

He

> > also

> > > > mentions about this (guru-shishya) being a Paramparaa. In BG

> > 4:3,

> > > > He says I am telling you this yoga because you are my friend

> and

> > > > devotee (bhakta). True guru will not say that I am your

> guru.

> > In

> > > > BG 11:43, Arjun is finally capable of understanding the guru-

> > tattva

> > > > within his friend Krisha then he says that Krishana, the

> formless

> > > > one, is the greatest Guru. Behine every creation or form,

> > Krishna

> > > > (formless) is there (vasudev sarvam), that's why every thing

is

> > > > capable of teaching us and we are capable of learning so

> instead

> > of

> > > > condemning one way vs. other, just accept that we all learn

> > > > differently, we all are at different level of learning, and

we

> > all

> > > > are at different pace of learning, then one will understand

> that

> > > any

> > > > and every way of leaning is coming from one and only one

> source.

> > > >

> > > > Some questions have been raised in past about guru being mean

> or

> > > > greedy and what not... Lord defines in Gitaji who is true

> > gyaani,

> > > > serving whom one can attain the Truth. Other scriptures also

> > > > describe how to know who is the true guru. In past email we

> have

> > > > discussed this subject, may be one can perform search in

gita-

> > talk

> > > > archieves. However, I have some questions:

> > > > If by listening to guru my attachment to money, family, food,

> > > > physical pleasure, etc. doesn't go away, what shall the true

> > guru

> > > do

> > > > so that such attachments get dropped?

> > > > if I am not curbing my anger or greed even though I know it

is

> > bad

> > > > for me and others, what shall the true guru do?

> > > > if my emotions are coming in my way or my relationships are

the

> > > > hurdle or my emotions/attitude are blocking my path or my ego

> is

> > > > just blinding me from evolving, what shall the true guru do

to

> > > clear

> > > > out the path?

> > > > What are the options available to true guru to teach me

> whatever

> > I

> > > > needed to learn to evolve in my spiritual path and attain the

> > > > ultimate goal of my life?

> > > > Please think and answer to the above. If you can answer them

> > > > honestly looking from guru's perspective, you will be able to

> > > > understand some of the behavior of guru then you will be

> > grateful

> > > to

> > > > guru for what he does for you than condemning him. Baba says

> if

> > > you

> > > > are attached with the workings of body and mind, your own

> > > negativity

> > > > is reflected in other people, environment or the world around

> > you.

> > > >

> > > > Hope this helps...

> > > > humble regards,

> > > > always at Thy Holy Feet

> > > >

> > > > ----------------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > > ----------------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > > ALL PREVIOUS MESSAGES

> > > > Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

> > > >

> > > > A sadhaka asks a question: In life, is it essential to have a

> > Guru

> > > > or not?

> > > >

> > > > I would say if this question keeps arising to a sadhaka, then

> > > answer

> > > > is " YES " .

> > > >

> > > > Guru means " that " whatever that instills the quest in us to

> > pursue

> > > > with untiring energy to find out what we are. That which

turns

> > our

> > > > mind inward by pushing us from outside until we feel the pull

> > from

> > > > inside to discover our essence!

> > > >

> > > > The best thing I have found is to just burn with the longing

> to

> > > know

> > > > truth to the extent that no price is ever greater than

> discovery

> > of

> > > > truth of oneself( Note:Truth of oneself and not truth about

> > > > oneself).

> > > >

> > > > To be a disciple, one needs to develop complete humility

which

> > will

> > > > open up one's mind to watch, listen, hear and contemplate.

> This

> > > will

> > > > bring all that we need home. All of a sudden one may find

that

> > one

> > > > is drawn to someone whose presence and words have magical

> quality

> > > > taking one to unknown dimension! His/Her answers bring

> > satisfaction

> > > > never found before even through the scriptures, peace

unknown,

> > and

> > > > joy that knows no cause! One's whole being may cry out " yes,

> yes,

> > > > this is what I have been waiting " .

> > > >

> > > > Recognizing such inner voice is of utmost importance at this

> > time.

> > > > Responding to such directions appropriately happens

> > spontaneously,

> > > > inspite of us. At this point, sadhakas, just know that you

> have

> > the

> > > > Guru! A Guru is born in our heart right then and there!

> > > >

> > > > Such a non-individual in the form of apparant individual

> becomes

> > > the

> > > > mouthpiece of God to announce God's glory and thus become a

> > channel

> > > > between us and God to remove our darkness and lead us to

light

> > > > ultimately! Why channel, because experience of God is beyond

> mind

> > > > and intellect!

> > > >

> > > > Thus I don't hesitate to say, the best resource to

realization

> is

> > > > hearing the truth from the lips of your Guru. Scriptures and

> > > > everything else are the next best!

> > > >

> > > > Namaskars, Pratap

> > > >

> > > > (Pratap Bhatt)

> > > > ----------------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > -

> > > >

> > > > Dear readers,

> > > >

> > > > om ojnana timirandasya, jnana jnana salakaya,

> > > > caksur unmilitam yena, tasmai sri gurave namah

> > > >

> > > > " I was born in the darkest ignorance, and my spiritual master

> > > opened

> > > > my eyes with the torchlight of knowledge. I offer my humble

> > > > obeisances unto him " .

> > > >

> > > > In the words below, our friend has tried to point out that

> > > men/women

> > > > do not need guru. Personally, I cannot see how anyone can

come

> to

> > > > such a conclusion....even to learn how to do simple things in

> > this

> > > > world, such as to become proficient in book-keeping, to learn

> the

> > > > art of cooking, electricity, etc....any art or science, one

> must

> > > > approach a teacher. Even if one says he learnt from a book,

> > still,

> > > > a person has written the book. If there was no need for guru,

> > then

> > > > it would be so easy for everyone in Kali yuga to come to the

> > level

> > > > of those high-minded saints that existed in previous yugas.

Do

> we

> > > > see this happening? And in truth, aren't the symptoms of Kali

> > > > become worse and worse? Intoxiication, gambling, meat-eating,

> and

> > > > prostitution are rampant everywhere, even in the most gentle,

> > clean

> > > > communities, one can still find it all either by the

> television

> > or

> > > > online.

> > > >

> > > > One who is himself coming from the transcendental world can

> look

> > > > into the heart of a disciple and perceive the deficiency in

the

> > > > heart, so that the disciple may come to a level of spiritual

> > > > awareness. The lessons taught by guru can be painful, if the

> > > > sadhaka is attached to worldly things such as prestige,

money,

> > > > power, etc. Due to the nature of pratistha, the desire for

> fame,

> > > > these anarthas are not always visible to the jiva. So,

without

> > the

> > > > help of guru, one may go on, life time after life time,

> thinking

> > > > oneself so pure and advanced.

> > > >

> > > > This in itself is an illusion, for the pure soul is always

> > > > introspective and striving for purity, not complacent with a

> > sense

> > > > of, " I am so pure. " It is conveyed throughout the Gita that

> > Arjuna

> > > > is confused, bewildered, and playing the role of a disciple,

> FOR

> > > OUR

> > > > BENEFIT. If there was no need of the guru/disciple

> relationship,

> > > > why did Arjuna present himself as a bewildered jiva

> > > > chapter two, verse 7.... " now I am confused about my duty and

> have

> > > > lost all composure because of weakness. In this condition I

am

> > > > asking You to tell me clearly what is best for me. Now I am

> > > > Your disciple and a soul surrendered unto You. Please

instruct

> > > > me. " ? The entire Gita is presented to bring Arjun to the

point

> of

> > > > executing his duty for the satisfaction of Lord Sri Krsna,

not

> to

> > > > tell him to live life by whatever he feels in his heart.

> Illusion

> > > > must be broken by one free from illusion.

> > > >

> > > > Respectfully,

> > > >

> > > > Mahalaksmi Dasi

> > > >

> > > > Hari Om

> > > >

> > > > A Saadhak has asked question – " Is it essential to have Guru

or

> > > > not? " . He has sought Gita views on the subject.

> > > >

> > > > If one reads carefully Gita (say 6:5, 6:6) , it is abundantly

> > clear

> > > > that it is not the principle d by Gita that one

should

> > > > become Guru or disciple. It is very clear.

> > > >

> > > > Gita 6:5 reads as under:-

> > > >

> > > > " Let a man emancipate himself by his own self; and not

degrade

> > > > himself; for he himself is his friend, as well as, his enemy.

> > > >

> > > > Gita 6:6 reads as under:-

> > > >

> > > > " To him, who has conquered his self by himself, his own self

> is a

> > > > friend : but to him who has not conquered the self, his own

> self

> > > > acts as his foe. "

> > > >

> > > > Initiation (initiating or being initiated) is not the

> principle

> > of

> > > > the Gita. A man is his own preceptor, therefore he has to

know,

> > > > learn, and imbibe in the teachings the gospel by his own

self.

> > When

> > > > all is Paramatma (VASUDEVAH SARVAM), then who except

Paramatma

> > is a

> > > > preceptor ! (KRISHNAM VANDE JAGADGURUM - Krishna is Guru of

> > entire

> > > > world). Who will reveal the gospel and to whom will he reveal

> it?

> > > >

> > > > Therefore, instead of perceiving defects in others, a man

> should

> > > > perceive defects in his own self and try to get rid of them

and

> > > > teach the gospel to himself. He himself should become his own

> > > > preceptor, he himself should become his leader and he himself

> > > should

> > > > become his own ruler!

> > > >

> > > > Every human being has been given " CONSCIENCE " (Viveka) along

> with

> > > > this human body. That conscience is our Guru. It never

> changes.

> > It

> > > > never tells us something that is inappropriate. It never

> agrees

> > to

> > > > our wrong doings - NEVER! It is our direct experience. Who

> then

> > can

> > > > be a better Guru than our own conscience, residing right

> within

> > us?

> > > >

> > > > Jai Shree Krishna

> > > >

> > > > Vyas N B

> > > > ----------------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > >

> > > > Namaste....

> > > >

> > > > My respects to all in this sanga....I am writing in respect

to

> > the

> > > question by

> > > > Vyasa. Ramchandra...he asked what the Bhagavad Gita says in

> > regard

> > > to the need

> > > > for a guru. I am guided by my diksha guru, and by my siksha

> > guru,

> > > to speak in

> > > > answer to this question. It is truly nothing short of

thievery

> > if

> > > a disciple

> > > > presents what he has been given from his guru, and fails to

> > > acknowledge his

> > > > indebtedness toward the one who has given the knowledge.

> > > >

> > > > In the fourth chapter of the Gita, Transcendental Knowledge,

> > > chapter 34, it is

> > > > said, " tad viddhi pranipatena, pariprasnene sevaya,

> upadeksyanti

> > > te jnanam,

> > > > jnaninas tattva-darsinah " " Just try to learn the truth by

> > > approaching a

> > > > spiritual master. Inquire from him submissively and render

> > service

> > > unto him.

> > > > The self-realized soul can impart knowledge unto you because

> he

> > > has seen the

> > > > truth. "

> > > >

> > > > Another pertinent quote is in the glorious Srimad

> > > Bhagavatam....chapter eleven,

> > > > canto three, verse 21. " tasmad gurum prapadyeta, jijnasuh

> sreya

> > > uttamam, sabde

> > > > pare ca nisnatam, brahmany upasamasrayam " Therefore, any

> person

> > > who seriously

> > > > desires real happiness must seek a bon fide spiritual master

> and

> > > take shelter of

> > > > him thru initiation. The qualification of a bona fide

> spiritual

> > > master is that

> > > > he has realized the conclusions of the scriptures

> > > > by deliberation and is able to convince others of these

> > > conclusions. Such great

> > > > personalities, who have taken shelter of the Supreme Godhead,

> > > leaving aside all

> > > > material considerations, should be understood to be bona fide

> > > spiritual

> > > > masters " .

> > > >

> > > > There are so many individuals who may say that guru is not

> > > necessary, but the

> > > > words of the Gita and the Bhagavatam are from the Lord

> directly.

> > > Sri Krsna says

> > > > that a guru IS necessary. While I agree that it is true, Guru

> is

> > > everywhere,

> > > > until an individual comes to the realized platform, of seeing

> > the

> > > presence of

> > > > God in everything, at every moment, a diksha guru is

necessary

> > to

> > > begin the

> > > > students progress, and to guide him to enter into bhajan of

> the

> > > Lord.

> > > >

> > > > If someone is saying that initiation and guru is not

> important,

> > > perhaps that is

> > > > true for him/her, but it is cheating to say that this is the

> > case

> > > for

> > > > everyone....we are not all on the same level. So, such an

> > > individual, who is

> > > > unaware of the needs of others, he himself must also be in

> need

> > of

> > > some

> > > > instruction? A beginner on the path must be guided....and

> > > ultimately, as each

> > > > new level of awareness dawns on the student, the beauty of a

> > truly

> > > genuine

> > > > student is that he/she always feels oneself to be a beginner,

> > > though

> > > > simultaneously that person knows within of his achievements.

> It

> > is

> > > said of an

> > > > uttama (topmost) adhikari, that he has to come

> > > > down to the level of a madhyama (intermediate) adhikari in

> order

> > to

> > > > preach.....as the uttama is seeing all souls acting

perfectly,

> > and

> > > serving the

> > > > Lord better than himself, due to his overwhelming and genuine

> > > humility. In such

> > > > a state, there is no need, no ability to preach to others. It

> is

> > > this

> > > > personality that we must seek out, one who is seeing within

> > their

> > > heart the

> > > > loving pastimes of the Divine couple, Sri Sri Radha and

Krsna.

> > Not

> > > everyone

> > > > may want to worship that particular aspect of the divine,

that

> > is

> > > individual

> > > > rasa, but the true guru understands this individuality, and

> > > doesn't force

> > > > anything foreign on a disciple, as is the case with Anupama

in

> > the

> > > Caitanya

> > > > Caritamrtra.....he had sold his head at the feet of Lord

> > > Ramachandra, and could

> > > > not give his full-hearted devotion to Lord Caitanya. Lord

> > Caitanya

> > > glorified

> > > > him for his love and blessed him.

> > > >

> > > > respectfully yours,

> > > > Mahalaksmi Dasi

> > > >

> > > > ----------------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > >

> > > > How can someone be directed towards the Divine when all that

> > exists

> > > > is the Divine?

> > > > Where one is being directed FROM and directed TO is the same,

> it

> > is

> > > > the Divine only.

> > > >

> > > > Seeking is an impersonal action, it does not come from an

> > > individual,

> > > > it is the play of the Divine itself to lose sight of itself

> and

> > > this

> > > > then gives rise to the action of seeking. Seeking is an

action

> > > > arising from No-thing, there is no seeker. The seeker is the

> very

> > > > illusion that is dispelled when all is seen to be the Divine

> > only.

> > > > Action arises as thinking and as sensation from No-thing,

> there

> > is

> > > no

> > > > thinker, no individual producing the feeings that appear.

> There

> > is

> > > no

> > > > individual. The concept that one is an individual continues

as

> > long

> > > > as the seeking action arises, when it no longer arises it

> ceases

> > > NOT

> > > > because of an apparent individuals action but because the

> Divine

> > > > simply no longer gives rise to the seeking action through

that

> > > > particular form. Nothing that the apparent individual does

can

> > > bring

> > > > an end to the illusion of there being an individual. The

> action

> > of

> > > > seeking and the ceasation of it are grace.

> > > >

> > > > With Love avasa

> > > >

> > > > " Adrian Meyers "

> > > >

> > > > ----------------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > -

> > > >

> > > > I read an essay on guru-Sishya, an elaboration of a couplet

> from

> > > > taittireeya upanishad, which goes like

> > > >

> > > > AcAryah poorva roopam, antEvAsyuttara roopam

> > > > vidyA sandhih, pravacanam sandhAnam

> > > >

> > > > The author in elaborating this concept says that everything

> > around

> > > > us, whether a living being or otherwise, has the capacity of

> > > > becoming a guru; that when one is ready to receive knowledge,

> > > > everything around him becomes a Guru.

> > > >

> > > > Ramakrishna

> > > > (Krishna Pillalamarri)

> > > >

> > > > ----------------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > -

> > > >

> > > > -Shri Hari-

> > > >

> > > > Rajendra J Bohra's down to earth no nonsense comment is one

> that

> > I

> > > > wholly agree with.

> > > >

> > > > Regarding Shakti that permeates existence, it is a force that

> is

> > > > experienced, one does not need to believe in it, she can

> > introduce

> > > > herself, if the door to your soul is open. The burning desire

> for

> > > > the truth is a key it seems. ( I will put in a question that

> was

> > > asked, " Why so

> > > > much pain " ), I am not sure but Gitaji 12:5 may explain, I

read

> > two

> > > translations.

> > > >

> > > > People of the West as a rule, do not have the knowledge that

is

> > > > known in India, most people have never heard of the Bhagavad

> > Gita,

> > > and because

> > > > of centuries of suppression of these matters they can fall

> into

> > > pitfalls. But

> > > > help is always at hand, Paramatma is true to all.

> > > >

> > > > There is a term that is finding popular usage, 'Tipping

> Point',

> > it

> > > is

> > > > at that spiritual tipping point that the seeker steps forward

> > > relying

> > > > on Divine support, and it is their acknowledging and

> understand

> > > that

> > > > this IS sacred that will save them from harm. It is at this

> point

> > > > that Gitaji 12:7 makes sense to me.

> > > > Yes from then on Gurus appear, not necessarily one ,

> > circumstances

> > > > can be confusing often bewildering. Some people say they do

> not

> > > believe in

> > > > coincidence, certainly too many things to be coincidence. The

> > > Divine hand is

> > > > clearly at work.

> > > >

> > > > With Respect and Divine Love,

> > > >

> > > > Mike

> > > > (Mike Keenor)

> > > >

> > > > ----------------------------

--

> --

> > -

> > > >

> > > > Loving Divine,

> > > > Pranam.

> > > > Thanks to all for the beautiful satsang, enjoyed it all.

> > Whatever I

> > > > am going to say is just a little addition to it. The fact is,

> > most

> > > > of us are very weak in our determination to attain Godhood

> > because

> > > > of the difficulties faced in detaching ourselves from the

> world.

> > > > Also, we are very forgetful that all is God - vasudeva sarvam

> > > > (including myself and others) & that is our biggest

> mistake/sin.

> > So

> > > > I believe that it is also ok to have a human being as our

Guru

> > who

> > > > can constantly remind us of who we are, how can we remain in

> > touch

> > > > with The Truth, some do's and don'ts, strengthen our will,

> > motivate

> > > > us, until we reach that oneness. Guru-Shishya paramparaa is

> very

> > > > sacred, those who have experienced it need no further

> > explanation.

> > > > I am very grateful to my Guru for everything. As stated

already

> > > > Guru-tatva (essence) is the same regardless from whom we

> learn,

> > as

> > > > long as we are conscious of learning from other sources, &

yes,

> > > > ultimately, it all comes from the same, one & only source -

> > > > God/Bhrahman/Paramaatmaa!

> > > >

> > > > I don't remember an exact story that I heard from Baba, so if

> > > > someone knows it please elaborate, it is about Guru-Shishya.

> > Either

> > > > Shri Ashtavakra in Guru's role asked King Janak or King Janak

> in

> > > the

> > > > role of Guru asked Shri Vyasji's son, first to give

> gurudakshina

> > > > (offerings given by disciple to guru at the end of his/her

> study)

> > > > before even the spiritual study began. The shishya was

> surprised

> > > > and asked why gurudakshina first? Guru said that once the so

> > called

> > > > shishya attains self-realization, who is guru and who is

> shishya?

> > > > From whom to collect gurudakshina? Guru and shishya become

one

> &

> > > > the same! So the point is, until we are not in touch with who

> we

> > > > really are all is valid, but the minute we are self-realized,

> all

> > > > separateness/differences dissolve!

> > > >

> > > > Shri Vyasji beautifully describes this point in BG Chapter 10

> > using

> > > > actually Shri Krishna as his voice. Shri Krishna, [a human

> being,

> > > > whom Arjun has accepted as his guru (BG 2:7), helps resolve

> > Arjun's

> > > > doubts (BG 18:73) in his spiritual journey], is addressed as

> > > Bhagwan

> > > > (BG 2:2), Mahaan - great soul (BG 18:74), Yogeshwar - great

> yogi

> > > (BG

> > > > 18:75/78) due to His attainment in spirituality. Shri

Vyasji, a

> > > > human being, is also addressed as Bhagwan, a great soul, due

> to

> > his

> > > > attainment in spirituality as well (BG 18:75). In BG 10:37,

> > Vyasji

> > > > using Krishna's voice indicates that there is no difference

> > between

> > > > him & Shri Krishna and there is no difference between Shri

> > Krishna

> > > &

> > > > Arjun (still an ignorant). Chapter 10 really helps expand our

> > > > horizon, brings us out of our limited mentality and frees us

> to

> > be

> > > > really how vast we are being children of God! But, like

Arjun,

> we

> > > > need to continue with our efforts, study scriptures, take

help

> of

> > > > guru/guide, do selfless act, follow all do's and don'ts,

> > cultivate

> > > > love, etc.; even though nothing is needed all is needed,

until

> we

> > > > truly understand who we are! Just prior to a moment of

> > realization,

> > > > all carry some value but as soon as it dawns (like when a

> switch

> > is

> > > > tuned on, darkness disappears immediately), all are dropped

> > > > immediately, scriptures carry no meaning (BG 2:46), nothing

> > remains

> > > > to be done by I (selfless karma), the so difficult world just

> > gets

> > > > dropped (equanimity, peace), other than God nothing exist

(true

> > > > surrender), nothing remains to be said (Krishna-Arjun dialog

> > ends).

> > > > But until that aatma-gyaan is attained, one doesn't stop like

> > > > Arjun!

> > > >

> > > > Even though we know we are all divine, children of the very

> same

> > > > God, we forget and in this forgetfulness we continue to

commit

> > many

> > > > mistakes. Baba says mistakes are not for mistakes, they are

for

> > > > correction. So let's correct the very basic mistake by

> > remembering

> > > > God in our daily activities, let's be conscious of who is

> > > performing

> > > > these activities hiding within our body & then let God lead

us

> > the

> > > > way He wants us to lead.

> > > >

> > > > humble regards,

> > > > always at Thy Holy Feet

> > > >

> > > > Manjula Patel

> > > >

> > > > ----------------------------

--

> --

> > -

> > > >

> > > > In life, is it essential to have a Guru or not ? Please

> provide a

> > > > clear answer that is based on the scriptures (mainly Gita).

> What

> > > > has Gita written about need for Guru and Guru Parampara ?

> > > >

> > > > JINDAJI MAI GURU BANANA JARURI HAI YA NAAHI? ...SPASHT JAWAAB

> > > DIJIYE

> > > > GITA SE. GITA NE GURU BANANE KI JARURIYAAT AUR GURU

> PARAMAPARAA

> > KE

> > > > BAARE MEIN KYAA LIKHAA HAI

> > > >

> > > > vyas.ramchandra

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Re: Please Clarify Message on Real Seeker and His Quest for

> > > Liberation

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Jai Shri Krishna,

> > > >

> > > > It is not necessary at all to establish Guru-Shishya (Teacher

> †"

> > > > Student) relationship for progressing in the spiritual

journey,

> > > > instead our own intense curiosity, our own craving desire to

> > > > liberate (Kalyaan) ONLY is extremely essential. Once a sadhak

> > > > experiences such a craving desire for his Kalyaan, then he

> gets

> > the

> > > > requisite material for spiritual progress through Parmaatma's

> > > > grace, through discourses of realized souls, through

> scriptures,

> > > > through books, through any incidence or situation, through

any

> > > > atmosphere.

> > > >

> > > > There is a special force (Shakti) which is controlling the

> entire

> > > > world. When man believes the existence of such Shakti, then

he

> > > > diverts towards Parmaatma. Then Parmaatma Himself destroys

the

> > > > ignorance of such a man (Gitaji 10:11) and Parmaatma frees

> such a

> > > > man from the deathly sea of the world (Gitaji 12:7).

> > > >

> > > > From whomsoever one gets light (Prakaash), knowledge, his

right

> > > > path, his duty, his aim (Dhyeya), is Guru-Tatva. That Guru-

> Tatva

> > is

> > > > residing within everyone. Whosoever is instrumental in

> bringing

> > out

> > > > that Guru-Tatva should be considered Guru. Actually Parmaatma

> is

> > > > everyone's Guru because everyone gets knowledge, light from

> Him

> > > only.

> > > >

> > > > These days one should stay away from Gurus who force the

> Shishya

> > to

> > > > worship the Guru, chant their name, take care of their

bodies,

> > > > require them to have their leftover food and water etc.

because

> > > > there is a great possibility of being cheated by them, like

> > Sitaji

> > > > (wife of Lord Rama) from Demon Ravan disguised as a sage.

> > > >

> > > > A renowned doctor can not treat his son or wife, but calls

> > another

> > > > doctor. Why, because of his attachment (Moha, Mamta) to his

> > family.

> > > > Only an outside doctor, who is not attached can treat well.

> > > > Similarly, only unattached, impartial Saints can impart

> > knowledge.

> > > > It is very sad that today's Gurus say that you become my

> > > > Shishya (disciple) then I will give you good knowledge. Such

> > Gurus

> > > > are actually slaves of the Shishyas (disciples).

> > > >

> > > > Actually, one does not have to make Guru. Guru just becomes.

> > Anyone

> > > > who knows more than us is our Guru, whether we believe it or

> not.

> > > >

> > > > One does not have to search Guru. Just as when the fruit

> ripes,

> > the

> > > > parrot comes on its own. Similarly, you get ready for getting

> > > > liberation, Guru will come automatically.

> > > >

> > > > A real Guru is one who diverts people towards Parmaatma

> instead

> > of

> > > > towards himself.

> > > >

> > > > " Krishnam Vande Jagatgurum "

> > > >

> > > > Narayana Narayana

> > > >

> > > > Rajendra J Bohra

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Re: Please Clarify Message on Real Seeker and His Quest for

> > > Liberation

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Hari Om

> > > >

> > > > With reference to the message posted on the above subject and

> > views

> > > > of learned Saadhaks, I humbly submit that in this article

> Swamiji

> > > > has described the momentum to which a saadhak reaches when

the

> > true

> > > > longing/ desire in him arises for salvation/ realisation. As

> > > rightly

> > > > concluded by Guru Charanji and Chitra Sriniji, here the

> > intention

> > > is

> > > > to reflect that a true seeker does not stop at anything once

> true

> > > > longing/desire in him awakens. There are many other

continuing

> > > > examples given in the article to reflect this intention. You

> are

> > > > right that Guru/ Shishya parampara ( Spiritual Master /

> Disciple

> > > > tradition) is very pious and yielded great results in the

past

> to

> > > > the saadhaks and disciples. But then, now, in this Kaliyuga,

> we

> > > find

> > > > rather too many Gurus directing disciples more towards

> themselves

> > > > rather than towards Paramatma (God) and we notice that quite

> > often,

> > > > a seeker finds himself empty handed in the end, many times

even

> > > > cheated. It is those type of Gurus which are referred in this

> > > > Article - not real , desireless, egoless Gurus carrying

> > traditions

> > > > of olden times.

> > > >

> > > > As regards the observation of Adrian Meyers, let me state

that

> > even

> > > > Swamiji on many occasions stated/written in his articles that

> > there

> > > > are situations when realisation can take place without having

> any

> > > > previous interest or desire for it at all. Desire is a mean,

> not

> > an

> > > > end. Yes, there is only enlightenment, all are already

divine,

> > and

> > > > in the end (at final stage) this desire to realise Paramatma

> also

> > > > has to be relinquished by saadhak (Spiritual aspirant). You

get

> > > > Paramatma realisation ONLY when you are in a totally desire

> less

> > > > mode. In fact, in the last speech of Swamiji, which was

posted

> on

> > > > this site during this month only (around 2nd/3rd July), there

> is

> > a

> > > > confirmation of the views of Adrian Meyers.

> > > >

> > > > But that does not mean that a spiritual aspirant should not

> > desire

> > > > for Paramatma at the beginning of his journey. It is a must.

> > > > Nothing can replace the role of intense desire for Paramatma

in

> > > > realisation. JUST AS: When you reach door steps of a temple/

> > church

> > > > etc, you relinquish/ leave your shoes, vehicle etc. outside

> only

> > > > e.g. you leave the very means of reaching to temple outside,

> and

> > go

> > > > before the Paramatma deity all alone, SIMILARLY at the final

> > stage

> > > > of Paramatma Realisation you leave even the desire for

> > realisation

> > > > outside and go all alone - desireless! The fact that the

> element

> > > > (Essence) is ever existing is undeniable and there is nothing

> in

> > > the

> > > > article which disputes this fact (rather there can never be a

> > > denial

> > > > of this fact in any article written by Swamiji). We ourselves

> > > employ

> > > > the word " REALISATION " and not " GETTING " , whenever we talk

> about

> > > > salvation etc. It is a fact that the element is already

> received

> > by

> > > > us. It is realising/ discovering/ remembering an already

> > available

> > > > but forgotten thing. Hence there is no contradiction of any

> sort

> > > > whatsoever in the concept

> > > >

> > > > Here the article was not on the Paramatma Realisation, the

> > article

> > > > was on the means thereof viz. intense desire, the momentum

> which

> > an

> > > > aspirant gathers in his journey, and the role of intense

> desire

> > as

> > > > well as Satsanga (good company). There is nothing wrong,

> > therefore,

> > > > in the article or in the translation. It is accurate, not an

> inch

> > > > missing the mark, leave aside million miles or light years

> > missing

> > > > the mark. Not an inch in fact..

> > > >

> > > > Therefore, I would urge, in all humbleness to fellow

aspirants

> to

> > > > appreciate the fact that these short messages are picked from

> > > > Swamiji's books and are translated from Hindi to English as

it

> > is.

> > > > Many times the messages are chosen with reference to one

subtle

> > > > principle only and the moderator stops translating further

and

> > > hence

> > > > the totality of the article gets limited/suffers a need for

> > > > explanation. That then is a reflection on the translator ONLY

> > and

> > > on

> > > > the space constraints regarding the size of message ONLY. In

> > > reality

> > > > the latter reason is more operative. However, the translation

> of

> > > > this article, the text , tenor, intention is absolutely

> > > blemishless.

> > > > Please trust me, I am not moderator or translator, I am as

> good a

> > > > fellow saadhak as are all others like Adrian or Guru

Charanji.

> > > >

> > > > With sincere respects and divine regards to all fellow

Saadhaks

> > > >

> > > > Jai Shree Krishna

> > > >

> > > > Vyas N B

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > , " sadhak_insight "

> > > > The statement you have made here misses the mark by a million

> > > miles.

> > > > It does not in any way take into account the fact that many

> come

> > to

> > > > realisation without having any previous interest OR desire

for

> > it

> > > at

> > > > all.

> > > >

> > > > There is ONLY enlightenment, all are already Divine, and the

> > > seeking

> > > > of this is the very thing that prevents the seeing of this

> fact.

> > > > There is ONLY the Divine including that idea that there is

> other

> > > > than the Divine.

> > > > Avasa

> > > > (Adrian Meyers)

> > > > ----------------------------

> > > >

> > > > Namaskar,

> > > >

> > > > In your article you have mentioned that a sadhak having true

> > > longing

> > > > for his spiritual betterment will not last with a Guru if he

is

> > > > unable to attain salvation through Him.

> > > >

> > > > The above is totally in contradiction with the Guru-shishya

> > > > parampara which Bharat is famous for. In fact if you take the

> > > > history of many Saints including that of Adhishankaracharya

> > > > (Gyanyogi) the role play of The Guru is what leads the

Disciple

> > > > towards ultimate liberation. It is in fact The Guru who

> chooses

> > his

> > > > Disciple and not the other way around.

> > > >

> > > > And once accepted by a Guru, The Disciple just obeys his

Guru's

> > > > advice and with The Guru's grace attains Gyan, Bhakthi and

> > > > Vairagya. Guru's grace alone guides him in his further

> spiritual

> > > > journey and leads him to Final liberation. (Mumukshatva)

> > > >

> > > > If a sadhak chooses to leave his Guru, it is not because of

his

> > > > intense yearning(tulmul) for liberation,(as you have

> explained)

> > but

> > > > only due to his high ego, with which he will never realise

his

> > aim

> > > > of self realisation. A true sadhak gets guidance from his

> Guru,

> > > even

> > > > if the Guru has given away his gross body(sthula deha).

> Because

> > the

> > > > disciple does 'adhnyapalan " of his Guru's words and becomes

> more

> > > and

> > > > more introverted that the Nirgun Gurutatva starts guiding him

> > from

> > > > within. Ref (Path of Guru's Grace) vol-4 of Science of

> > Spirituality

> > > > published by Santan Sanstha.

> > > >

> > > > Please write your articles very clearly, without leaving room

> for

> > > > misinterpretations. What you have really wanted to convey in

> your

> > > > article is actually that a real seeker does not stop at

> anything

> > > > until he reaches his goal. But the message below gives

> > > > out a completely different meaning.

> > > >

> > > > Gratitude.

> > > > Gurucharni.

> > > > Chitra Srini

> > > >

> > > > ----------------------------

-

> > > > [sadhaka] All That is Needed is Intense Longing for

> > > > Salvation (July 12, 2008)

> > > > sadhaka

> > > > Saturday, July 12, 2008, 5:00 AM

> > > >

> > > > :Shree Hari:

> > > >

> > > > 12th July, 2008, Saturday

> > > > Aashaad Shukla Navami, Vikram Samvat 2065, Shanivar

> > > >

> > > > A Sadhak (Spiritual Aspirant) who has a true longing for his

> > > > spiritual betterment and salvation, will not last anywhere

> > without

> > > > attaining salvation. If he finds a Guru, but is unable to

> attain

> > > > salvation through him, then he will not last with that Guru.

> If

> > he

> > > > becomes a sadhu (ascetic), but still does not attain

> salvation,

> > > then

> > > > there too he will not last long. If he joins an organization,

> > there

> > > > too he will not last. Until a hungry man, does not get food,

> how

> > > > can he rest? If there is deep and intense longing for

> salvation,

> > > > he will be unable to stay put anywhere. Staying put is simply

> not

> > > > in his hands. He will stay rested, only where his deep

> spiritual

> > > > longing is fulfilled.

> > > >

> > > > Out of great fortune and luck, one receives satsang

> (association

> > > > with truth) - " Bade bhaag paayib satsangaa " (Manasa. Utter.

> > 33:4).

> > > > But in that same scripture (granth) that writes about great

> > > fortune,

> > > > it is also written, " Jehi ke Jehi per satya sanehu. So tehi

> > > > milayee ne kachu sandehu. " (Manasa., Baal. 259:3). One who

has

> a

> > > > real and intense longing for spiritual truths, will certainly

> > > > receive real satsang (association of good company, Truth).

> > > >

> > > > He who has a real longing for salvation, he will receive the

> > > > opportunity for salvation and spiritual betterment - there is

> no

> > > > doubt about it. In this matter, it is not about one's luck or

> > > > fortune.

> > > >

> > > > In worldly matters such as acquisition of wealth, it is

> > essential

> > > to

> > > > have three things.

> > > > 1) Desire for wealth,

> > > > 2) Effort to acquire the wealth and

> > > > 3) Luck (fortune).

> > > >

> > > > But God Realization is possible by mere longing / desiring.

> This

> > > > human body has been received for the purpose of God

> Realization.

> > If

> > > > God is not attained, than how did this human body in anyway,

> aid

> > in

> > > > achieving this aim and purpose? Thus, by giving up worldly

> > desires,

> > > > exclusively awaken within the inquiry into the Self (Atma) or

> > > awaken

> > > > within an intense longing for God Realization. In this is the

> > > > success of human life.

> > > >

> > > > From " Mere Toh Giridhar Gopal, Dusero ne Koyi, " in Hindi pg

19

> by

> > > > Swami Ramsukhdasji Maharaj.

> > > >

> > >

> >

>