Question on Combining Path of Inquiry and Faith in Your Spiritual Practice

[Guest guest]

Clarification Sadhaka Message July 17th, Thursday

 

By combining faith (path of devotion) and inquiry (path of

knowledge) - sadhaka's life does not remain pure, it becomes impure?

Does this imply that a sadhaka cannot follow the path of devotion

and path of knowledge at the same time? Why should it make his life

impure? Are these paths exclusive of each other? Please clarify.

 

 

Subhash Madan

Ram Ram

 

:Shree Hari:

 

17th July, 2008, Thursday

Aashaad Shukla Chaturdashi, Vikram Samvat 2065, Guruvar

 

We never looks to ourselves, as to why we were born? what do we

want? and what are we doing? As long as we are not attentive to

these things, till that time, our position (please forgive me for

saying this), is lower than that of animals ! Our life is lower

than that of animals, birds, trees etc. After being born a man,

there is not that alertness, that inquiry as to whether we are

really men? A man must have the alertness, and a quest to know -

why was I born? What should I do? and what should I not do?

 

If this understanding does not come on it's own, then so be it. But

from the messages of the saints and scriptures, one can understand

completely, that human birth is attained only for one's liberation.

From God's side, He has already given this as the last birth,

through which He can be realized.

 

Brahmaji through various sacrifices (yagna) he manifests

creation " sahyagyaah prajaah srhtavaapuraovaach prajaapatih, " (Gita

3:10). In other words, duty and the doer - they both manifested at

the same time. That which is " duty " is " innate " . Today, the

difficulty and effort we experience in doing our duty, is due to

developing an affinity with the world. By it self the doer is also

innate, and the duties are also innate and natural. Man himself

makes them unnatural. The thought does not arise in him, that why

did he create this unnaturalness ? How did he do that? If he

inquires into this then benefits are certain !

 

Now I will share with you one thing. There are two paths - one the

path of vishwaas (faith and belief) and another the path of jigyaasa

(quest for knowledge). Faith and belief is in that which one has no

doubt at all, where there is not even the slightest possibility of a

doubt arising. That faith that is free of all doubts, does not

arise in the form of belief and faith from the onset. Rather

inquiry is on those things where there is some element of doubt. In

Path of Devotion (bhakti maarg), faith and belief that is free of

all doubts is primary and in the path of jnana (knowledge, inquiry

into the Truth) some doubt / uncertainty is paramount. By combining

faith and inquiry - a sadhak's (spiritual aspirant's) life does not

remain pure, it becomes impure.

 

In what do we have faith? In that which we have no knowledge of

with our sense organs and inner faculties, we may or may not have

faith in that. There are only two points - either you have faith,

or you don't have faith. Whether God exists or not, this point is

not one of belief, it is one of an inquiring seeker. (to be

continued)

 

From " Saadhan, Sudhaa, Sindhu " in Hindi pg. 706 by Swami

Ramsukhdasji.

 

Ram Ram

 

GUIDELINES FOR POSTING A RESPONSE:

 

1. The group is focused on the Holy Gitaji, therefore, only

responses which further clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will be

posted.

 

2. Making reference of Gitaji shloka is highly encouraged - at least

once in the response. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or

other scriptures to substantiate your response.

 

3. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting

sadhaka's time. Under no circustance the answer should exceed say

one page at the most (500 words or so).

 

4. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the

extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas

 

5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only.

 

6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other

organizations.

 

7. Complete reproduction of texts from any book is strongly

discouraged, however references may be made of the book or author

(but not links to other sites).

 

8. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone

number, address etc.

 

9. Please do not address the response to a particular individual

since the message is going to the entire group.

 

10. Due to the large readership, only those responses will be posted

which are in line with the general philosophy of taking Shrimad

Bhagavad Gita as the reference.

 

11. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if content

is unclear for distribution or not directly related to the question

being asked.

 

12. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth,

westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use of only

Sanskrit words, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit

bracketed wherever possible.

 

MODERATOR

Ram Ram

[Guest guest]

Dear Sadhak,

Bhakti (companionship, togetherness of those in similar inner

feeling or swabhaav) and Jnana (awareness of the current position of

one's inner nature or swabhaav) and Karma (activity of correction or

improvement in the inner and innate nature or swbhaav) can lead to

Yoga (truth). This paradigm of Bhakti yoga, Jnana yoga and Karma

yoga are terms of critical understanding of the Bhagwat Gita

techniques.

 

If one is going from Delhi to Mumbai, the path or railway route is

equivalent of Dharma, but different milestones specifying location

of inner nature, characteristics, temperament (swabhaav) across the

journey. Bhakti is companionship or right train which if correctly

decided, will take one to Mumbai whether or not one is aware of

various locations and limited activity. Thus, bhakti can be a short

cut of jnana and karma. In another way, a man can go from Delhi to

Mumbai alone, and is full of activity, and discovers the Mumbai.

Here, bhakti is not feasible but, jnana and karma are together is

success.

 

Swabhaav (inner nature, characteristics) is transformed in a step by

step process, and this is purpose of activity and awareness. Bhakti is simpler

way and one can avoid tapah (austerities) which the discoverer like Krishna,

Buddha had toiled. It is very much like any other set of subjects, like Physics,

high school student knows the ideas of Newton without spending lifetime, and

this facilitation is Bhakti.

 

Bhagwat Gita is knowledge of transformation of ones' swabhaav (inner nature and

tendencies). Whatever be the starting point; by continued practice, awareness

and companionship of right kind, goal is achieved sooner than later.

Best regards

K G Misra

(Krishna Gopal)

-

Priy Sadhaka,

As far as I perceived from Swamiji, Knowledge is received by Buddhi

(intellect) which is part of JADA Prakruti (Limited, Inert Nature).

It can not know limitlessness. Therefore on the path of knowledge, we feel

incomplete (rather a very subtle form of ego remains).

 

In MANAS Goswamiji wrote in Uttarkand that One who is intelligent

follows the path of devotion. Swamiji also wrote in Sadhak

Sanjivani : Even after getting absolute knowledge, one still longs for love of

God, whereas devotee from the very beginning (first step) develops love and

relationship with God. So the devotee is considered to be a Gyani

(intelligent). Bhagwan Sri Krishna also told in Geetaji : Gyani (Premi) Bhakt is

my most beloved.

 

Hope this helps,

Thanks,

Raja

(Raja Gurdasani)

 

--------------------------------

Namaste.

 

Vivekanand said: Science without faith is dangerous, Faith without science is

blind.

 

Based on Geetaji...

 

Faith (Bhakti) without Knowledge is blind.

 

Knowledge (Gyan) without Faith in God is only superficial / material.

 

We need both for spiritual progress (Ego to Atma) like two wheels of a bicycle:

 

Faith (Buddhi) to guide us in the right direction towards God (front wheel).

 

Knowledge (Mind) to understand the nature of God (back wheel).

 

Additionally Karmayog provides the energy to ride and Dhyanyog to keep us

straight.

 

Our Guruji once said these four Yog are like the four legs of a chair to sit on

for each of us.

 

Maybe these are like the four wheels of a car (kar) to move us from Ahamkar to

Omkar.

 

Hope this clarifies the points raised in this discussion.

 

Dr BalMukund Bhala

 

 

, " sadhak_insight "

<sadhak_insight wrote:

>

> Clarification Sadhaka Message July 17th, Thursday

>

> By combining faith (path of devotion) and inquiry (path of

> knowledge) - sadhaka's life does not remain pure, it becomes

impure?

> Does this imply that a sadhaka cannot follow the path of devotion

> and path of knowledge at the same time? Why should it make his

life

> impure? Are these paths exclusive of each other? Please clarify.

>

>

> Subhash Madan

> Ram Ram

>

> :Shree Hari:

>

> 17th July, 2008, Thursday

> Aashaad Shukla Chaturdashi, Vikram Samvat 2065, Guruvar

>

> We never looks to ourselves, as to why we were born? what do we

> want? and what are we doing? As long as we are not attentive to

> these things, till that time, our position (please forgive me for

> saying this), is lower than that of animals ! Our life is lower

> than that of animals, birds, trees etc. After being born a man,

> there is not that alertness, that inquiry as to whether we are

> really men? A man must have the alertness, and a quest to know -

> why was I born? What should I do? and what should I not do?

>

> If this understanding does not come on it's own, then so be it. But

> from the messages of the saints and scriptures, one can understand

> completely, that human birth is attained only for one's liberation.

> From God's side, He has already given this as the last birth,

> through which He can be realized.

>

> Brahmaji through various sacrifices (yagna) he manifests

> creation " sahyagyaah prajaah srhtavaapuraovaach prajaapatih, " (Gita

> 3:10). In other words, duty and the doer - they both manifested at

> the same time. That which is " duty " is " innate " . Today, the

> difficulty and effort we experience in doing our duty, is due to

> developing an affinity with the world. By it self the doer is also

> innate, and the duties are also innate and natural. Man himself

> makes them unnatural. The thought does not arise in him, that why

> did he create this unnaturalness ? How did he do that? If he

> inquires into this then benefits are certain !

>

> Now I will share with you one thing. There are two paths - one the

> path of vishwaas (faith and belief) and another the path of

jigyaasa

> (quest for knowledge). Faith and belief is in that which one has no

> doubt at all, where there is not even the slightest possibility of

a

> doubt arising. That faith that is free of all doubts, does not

> arise in the form of belief and faith from the onset. Rather

> inquiry is on those things where there is some element of doubt. In

> Path of Devotion (bhakti maarg), faith and belief that is free of

> all doubts is primary and in the path of jnana (knowledge, inquiry

> into the Truth) some doubt / uncertainty is paramount. By combining

> faith and inquiry - a sadhak's (spiritual aspirant's) life does not

> remain pure, it becomes impure.

>

> In what do we have faith? In that which we have no knowledge of

> with our sense organs and inner faculties, we may or may not have

> faith in that. There are only two points - either you have faith,

> or you don't have faith. Whether God exists or not, this point is

> not one of belief, it is one of an inquiring seeker. (to be

> continued)

>

> From " Saadhan, Sudhaa, Sindhu " in Hindi pg. 706 by Swami

> Ramsukhdasji.

>

> Ram Ram

>

> GUIDELINES FOR POSTING A RESPONSE:

>

> 1. The group is focused on the Holy Gitaji, therefore, only

> responses which further clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will

be

> posted.

>

> 2. Making reference of Gitaji shloka is highly encouraged - at

least

> once in the response. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or

> other scriptures to substantiate your response.

>

> 3. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting

> sadhaka's time. Under no circustance the answer should exceed say

> one page at the most (500 words or so).

>

> 4. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the

> extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas

>

> 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only.

>

> 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other

> organizations.

>

> 7. Complete reproduction of texts from any book is strongly

> discouraged, however references may be made of the book or author

> (but not links to other sites).

>

> 8. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone

> number, address etc.

>

> 9. Please do not address the response to a particular individual

> since the message is going to the entire group.

>

> 10. Due to the large readership, only those responses will be

posted

> which are in line with the general philosophy of taking Shrimad

> Bhagavad Gita as the reference.

>

> 11. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if

content

> is unclear for distribution or not directly related to the

question

> being asked.

>

> 12. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth,

> westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use of only

> Sanskrit words, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit

> bracketed wherever possible.

>

> MODERATOR

> Ram Ram

>

[Guest guest]

Hari Om

 

Here the meaning is to state that Bhakti and Jnana Yoga are

independent paths. In jnana yoga the doubt is essence in your quest.

Because there is curiosity in your mind for search of the truth.

That curiosity in fact later on leads you to the truth. Once your

quest is over, and you realise the truth then you naturally start

believing. But in Bhakti Yoga , the very doubt is not acceptable.

You have to have total belief. Because there the devotee starts with

a mind set that his belief is truthful and in reality that is

truth only. In fact both Jnana Yoga and Karma Yoga are " of this

world " pursuits - they are in relation to the world and hence they

are called " laukik " . In these two, disconnection with world becomes

the result in the end. What remains there after is eternal

connection with Paramatma only. Even otherwise the Paramatma is

connected with you..Bhakti Yoga is " alaukik " – " out of this world, "

divine path. Here you start with reality itself, that is connection

with Paramatma. Then the disconnection with the world becomes

automatic.. Even otherwise the world is disconnecting with you!

 

If you are curious, then blind faith makes you " impure " (not

impious)- ashuddha. Doubt is in essence, there. Because otherwise

you get into a dilemma. Similarly, when you have chosen path of

devotion, then any doubt makes your sadhna (striving) impure. There

is no place for doubt in Bhakti Yoga. Belief is essence there. Any

way , here the hindi word used was " asuddha " (impure, adulterated,

not exactly precise, confusing) and it does not mean " apavitra "

(impious, sinful). If your goal is Paramatma or quest for truth you

never become impious. In the process adopted by you an impurity, an

inappropriateness, an imperfection comes, if you mix doubt in belief

or belief in curiosity.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

 

 

Loving Divine,

Pranam.

I agree that we are a mixture of bhakti (devotion), gyaan

(knowledge), karma (right action), dhyaan (yoga-meditation).

Usually that's how we start. We have doubts, questions to be

clarified, etc. so we use gyaan yoga. But what Swamiji is saying

when one is truly surrendered, no doubt/question arises in devotee's

mind because true devotee is completely dependent on God and the

attitude is whatever God does, He knows what is best for me so there

is no question or doubt or objection or desire to change the

situation arising in him/her. This is a true state of bhakti. But

if you have questions or doubts need to be resolved, if you think

why me God, or if you pray to change the present situation or

object, it is not true bhakti because you have not surrendered

completely yet to God and finding answers require enquiry, so it is

gyaan yoga. When one is questioning, objection, enquiring, one is

not truly surrendered and when one is all stops! Do you see the

subtle difference between them? When we start, we are like baby

monkey - I am holding on to my Mother (Divine) while She jumps from

one place to other. We trust Her but still it is I who is holding

on - the subtle ego remains. In the other case - bhakta, on the

contrary is a person like a kitten. Where ever my Mother takes me

She is the one who has to carry me and I am always happy in where

ever she takes me.

 

Hope this helps...

humble regards,

always at Thy Divine Feet

 

Manjula Patel

 

 

--

, " sadhak_insight "

<sadhak_insight wrote:

>

> Dear Sadhak,

> Bhakti (companionship, togetherness of those in similar inner

> feeling or swabhaav) and Jnana (awareness of the current position

of

> one's inner nature or swabhaav) and Karma (activity of correction

or

> improvement in the inner and innate nature or swbhaav) can lead to

> Yoga (truth). This paradigm of Bhakti yoga, Jnana yoga and Karma

> yoga are terms of critical understanding of the Bhagwat Gita

> techniques.

>

> If one is going from Delhi to Mumbai, the path or railway route is

> equivalent of Dharma, but different milestones specifying location

> of inner nature, characteristics, temperament (swabhaav) across the

> journey. Bhakti is companionship or right train which if correctly

> decided, will take one to Mumbai whether or not one is aware of

> various locations and limited activity. Thus, bhakti can be a short

> cut of jnana and karma. In another way, a man can go from Delhi to

> Mumbai alone, and is full of activity, and discovers the Mumbai.

> Here, bhakti is not feasible but, jnana and karma are together is

> success.

>

> Swabhaav (inner nature, characteristics) is transformed in a step

by

> step process, and this is purpose of activity and awareness.

Bhakti is simpler way and one can avoid tapah (austerities) which

the discoverer like Krishna, Buddha had toiled. It is very much like

any other set of subjects, like Physics, high school student knows

the ideas of Newton without spending lifetime, and this facilitation

is Bhakti.

>

> Bhagwat Gita is knowledge of transformation of ones' swabhaav

(inner nature and tendencies). Whatever be the starting point; by

continued practice, awareness and companionship of right kind, goal

is achieved sooner than later.

> Best regards

> K G Misra

> (Krishna Gopal)

> -

> Priy Sadhaka,

> As far as I perceived from Swamiji, Knowledge is received by Buddhi

> (intellect) which is part of JADA Prakruti (Limited, Inert Nature).

> It can not know limitlessness. Therefore on the path of knowledge,

we feel incomplete (rather a very subtle form of ego remains).

>

> In MANAS Goswamiji wrote in Uttarkand that One who is intelligent

> follows the path of devotion. Swamiji also wrote in Sadhak

> Sanjivani : Even after getting absolute knowledge, one still longs

for love of God, whereas devotee from the very beginning (first

step) develops love and relationship with God. So the devotee is

considered to be a Gyani (intelligent). Bhagwan Sri Krishna also

told in Geetaji : Gyani (Premi) Bhakt is my most beloved.

>

> Hope this helps,

> Thanks,

> Raja

> (Raja Gurdasani)

>

> --------------------------------

> Namaste.

>

> Vivekanand said: Science without faith is dangerous, Faith without

science is blind.

>

> Based on Geetaji...

>

> Faith (Bhakti) without Knowledge is blind.

>

> Knowledge (Gyan) without Faith in God is only superficial /

material.

>

> We need both for spiritual progress (Ego to Atma) like two wheels

of a bicycle:

>

> Faith (Buddhi) to guide us in the right direction towards God

(front wheel).

>

> Knowledge (Mind) to understand the nature of God (back wheel).

>

> Additionally Karmayog provides the energy to ride and Dhyanyog to

keep us straight.

>

> Our Guruji once said these four Yog are like the four legs of a

chair to sit on for each of us.

>

> Maybe these are like the four wheels of a car (kar) to move us

from Ahamkar to Omkar.

>

> Hope this clarifies the points raised in this discussion.

>

> Dr BalMukund Bhala

>

>

> , " sadhak_insight "

> <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> >

> > Clarification Sadhaka Message July 17th, Thursday

> >

> > By combining faith (path of devotion) and inquiry (path of

> > knowledge) - sadhaka's life does not remain pure, it becomes

> impure?

> > Does this imply that a sadhaka cannot follow the path of devotion

> > and path of knowledge at the same time? Why should it make his

> life

> > impure? Are these paths exclusive of each other? Please clarify.

> >

> >

> > Subhash Madan

> > Ram Ram

> >

> > :Shree Hari:

> >

> > 17th July, 2008, Thursday

> > Aashaad Shukla Chaturdashi, Vikram Samvat 2065, Guruvar

> >

> > We never looks to ourselves, as to why we were born? what do we

> > want? and what are we doing? As long as we are not attentive to

> > these things, till that time, our position (please forgive me for

> > saying this), is lower than that of animals ! Our life is lower

> > than that of animals, birds, trees etc. After being born a man,

> > there is not that alertness, that inquiry as to whether we are

> > really men? A man must have the alertness, and a quest to know -

> > why was I born? What should I do? and what should I not do?

> >

> > If this understanding does not come on it's own, then so be it.

But

> > from the messages of the saints and scriptures, one can

understand

> > completely, that human birth is attained only for one's

liberation.

> > From God's side, He has already given this as the last birth,

> > through which He can be realized.

> >

> > Brahmaji through various sacrifices (yagna) he manifests

> > creation " sahyagyaah prajaah srhtavaapuraovaach prajaapatih, "

(Gita

> > 3:10). In other words, duty and the doer - they both manifested

at

> > the same time. That which is " duty " is " innate " . Today, the

> > difficulty and effort we experience in doing our duty, is due to

> > developing an affinity with the world. By it self the doer is

also

> > innate, and the duties are also innate and natural. Man himself

> > makes them unnatural. The thought does not arise in him, that why

> > did he create this unnaturalness ? How did he do that? If he

> > inquires into this then benefits are certain !

> >

> > Now I will share with you one thing. There are two paths - one

the

> > path of vishwaas (faith and belief) and another the path of

> jigyaasa

> > (quest for knowledge). Faith and belief is in that which one has

no

> > doubt at all, where there is not even the slightest possibility

of

> a

> > doubt arising. That faith that is free of all doubts, does not

> > arise in the form of belief and faith from the onset. Rather

> > inquiry is on those things where there is some element of doubt.

In

> > Path of Devotion (bhakti maarg), faith and belief that is free of

> > all doubts is primary and in the path of jnana (knowledge,

inquiry

> > into the Truth) some doubt / uncertainty is paramount. By

combining

> > faith and inquiry - a sadhak's (spiritual aspirant's) life does

not

> > remain pure, it becomes impure.

> >

> > In what do we have faith? In that which we have no knowledge of

> > with our sense organs and inner faculties, we may or may not have

> > faith in that. There are only two points - either you have faith,

> > or you don't have faith. Whether God exists or not, this point is

> > not one of belief, it is one of an inquiring seeker. (to be

> > continued)

> >

> > From " Saadhan, Sudhaa, Sindhu " in Hindi pg. 706 by Swami

> > Ramsukhdasji.

> >

> > Ram Ram

> >

> > GUIDELINES FOR POSTING A RESPONSE:

> >

> > 1. The group is focused on the Holy Gitaji, therefore, only

> > responses which further clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will

> be

> > posted.

> >

> > 2. Making reference of Gitaji shloka is highly encouraged - at

> least

> > once in the response. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or

> > other scriptures to substantiate your response.

> >

> > 3. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting

> > sadhaka's time. Under no circustance the answer should exceed say

> > one page at the most (500 words or so).

> >

> > 4. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the

> > extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas

> >

> > 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only.

> >

> > 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other

> > organizations.

> >

> > 7. Complete reproduction of texts from any book is strongly

> > discouraged, however references may be made of the book or

author

> > (but not links to other sites).

> >

> > 8. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone

> > number, address etc.

> >

> > 9. Please do not address the response to a particular individual

> > since the message is going to the entire group.

> >

> > 10. Due to the large readership, only those responses will be

> posted

> > which are in line with the general philosophy of taking Shrimad

> > Bhagavad Gita as the reference.

> >

> > 11. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if

> content

> > is unclear for distribution or not directly related to the

> question

> > being asked.

> >

> > 12. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth,

> > westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use of only

> > Sanskrit words, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit

> > bracketed wherever possible.

> >

> > MODERATOR

> > Ram Ram

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Imagine two persons standing at the foot of a hill who want to go to

a Shiva temple, which is at the peak of the mountain. One has a map

with complete instructions and the topography of the mountain. He

studies the map over and over and has complete grasp of the path and

the obstacles he is going to face on his journey. But he does not

have the faith in himself if he can climb the mountain. All type of

doubts come in his mind and he stays at the foot of the temple

thinking if should start or not, if he will be able to make it to

the top or not.

 

The other has complete faith in himself and is ready to start and is

sure to reach the top, but has no directions. He travels few hundred

yards and sees a dead end and comes back. He is at loss and can not

judge as which path is the right for him

 

Then both of them talk to each other and with the faith and

encouragement of the one and knowledge of the other , both reach

the summit.

 

When they were at the summit, the only thing, which mattered, was

that both were in the temple of God and were immersed in His bliss.

 

It is not correct to separate these paths, as both are essential for

the ultimate goal.

 

Also the second reason why they should be practiced together is that

one path acts as an antidote for the weakness of the other path .

Practicing the path of knowledge has tendency to enhance the ego, so

the path of faith, which teaches submission, counters it. Similarly

path of faith has a tendency to create blind faith, and path of

knowledge helps it to stay on the right course.

Although various great teachers like Shankra, Chaitanya (or

Prabhupad) , and B G Tilak have interpreted Gita to suite their

thinking and say Gita is nothing but Gian yoga, or Bhakti yoga or

Karam yoga , Lord Krishna has emphasized to pursue all the paths to

keep it in balance.

When one has achieved the goal and has merged in Him, all these

variations disappear.

 

Manmohan Sehgal

-

 

Dear Sadaks,

This combing does not come to one`s intellect if one has not made

sufficient practice on spritual life in earlier birth. We can see

many people next to us does not care even to listen devotional songs

when we play. This body equipment is result of our earlier karmas

and desires. So if one has sincerly attempted spritual path and lead

divine life in his previous birth he automatically gets desire to

continue in this birth. Many of us know what is Vasana. Vasana can

be divine or worldly. Earlier birth vasana be divine then it

contiues in present birth. This is combing.

Buddha did combing as to why aging, death, disease etc. HIS brother

in law Devadatha was with Buddha for 13 years. But just before

Buddha life to end Devadatha was claiming Buddha position. How many

of us question ourselves, " My end is going to be the same as that

of a minister or begger- same cremation/burial- what happens next-

am I not wasting time seeing things around me and not forsaking

attachment " . This comes in mind to us like a flash, then back to

world. Only Adi Sanakara, Buddha, Puranderdas, Tukaram, Thirupan

Alwar can think. Body is the same composition for all. It is

previous strong Vasana/Desire in divinity that contiues.

B.Sathyanarayan

 

 

 

 

-

 

, " sadhak_insight "

<sadhak_insight wrote:

>

> Hari Om

>

> Here the meaning is to state that Bhakti and Jnana Yoga are

> independent paths. In jnana yoga the doubt is essence in your

quest.

> Because there is curiosity in your mind for search of the truth.

> That curiosity in fact later on leads you to the truth. Once your

> quest is over, and you realise the truth then you naturally start

> believing. But in Bhakti Yoga , the very doubt is not acceptable.

> You have to have total belief. Because there the devotee starts

with

> a mind set that his belief is truthful and in reality that is

> truth only. In fact both Jnana Yoga and Karma Yoga are " of this

> world " pursuits - they are in relation to the world and hence they

> are called " laukik " . In these two, disconnection with world

becomes

> the result in the end. What remains there after is eternal

> connection with Paramatma only. Even otherwise the Paramatma is

> connected with you..Bhakti Yoga is " alaukik " – " out of this

world, "

> divine path. Here you start with reality itself, that is

connection

> with Paramatma. Then the disconnection with the world becomes

> automatic.. Even otherwise the world is disconnecting with you!

>

> If you are curious, then blind faith makes you " impure " (not

> impious)- ashuddha. Doubt is in essence, there. Because otherwise

> you get into a dilemma. Similarly, when you have chosen path of

> devotion, then any doubt makes your sadhna (striving) impure.

There

> is no place for doubt in Bhakti Yoga. Belief is essence there. Any

> way , here the hindi word used was " asuddha " (impure, adulterated,

> not exactly precise, confusing) and it does not mean " apavitra "

> (impious, sinful). If your goal is Paramatma or quest for truth

you

> never become impious. In the process adopted by you an impurity,

an

> inappropriateness, an imperfection comes, if you mix doubt in

belief

> or belief in curiosity.

>

> Jai Shree Krishna

>

> Vyas N B

>

>

 

> Loving Divine,

> Pranam.

> I agree that we are a mixture of bhakti (devotion), gyaan

> (knowledge), karma (right action), dhyaan (yoga-meditation).

> Usually that's how we start. We have doubts, questions to be

> clarified, etc. so we use gyaan yoga. But what Swamiji is saying

> when one is truly surrendered, no doubt/question arises in

devotee's

> mind because true devotee is completely dependent on God and the

> attitude is whatever God does, He knows what is best for me so

there

> is no question or doubt or objection or desire to change the

> situation arising in him/her. This is a true state of bhakti.

But

> if you have questions or doubts need to be resolved, if you think

> why me God, or if you pray to change the present situation or

> object, it is not true bhakti because you have not surrendered

> completely yet to God and finding answers require enquiry, so it

is

> gyaan yoga. When one is questioning, objection, enquiring, one is

> not truly surrendered and when one is all stops! Do you see the

> subtle difference between them? When we start, we are like baby

> monkey - I am holding on to my Mother (Divine) while She jumps

from

> one place to other. We trust Her but still it is I who is holding

> on - the subtle ego remains. In the other case - bhakta, on the

> contrary is a person like a kitten. Where ever my Mother takes me

> She is the one who has to carry me and I am always happy in where

> ever she takes me.

>

> Hope this helps...

> humble regards,

> always at Thy Divine Feet

>

> Manjula Patel

>

>

> -

-

> , " sadhak_insight "

> <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> >

> > Dear Sadhak,

> > Bhakti (companionship, togetherness of those in similar inner

> > feeling or swabhaav) and Jnana (awareness of the current

position

> of

> > one's inner nature or swabhaav) and Karma (activity of

correction

> or

> > improvement in the inner and innate nature or swbhaav) can lead

to

> > Yoga (truth). This paradigm of Bhakti yoga, Jnana yoga and Karma

> > yoga are terms of critical understanding of the Bhagwat Gita

> > techniques.

> >

> > If one is going from Delhi to Mumbai, the path or railway route

is

> > equivalent of Dharma, but different milestones specifying

location

> > of inner nature, characteristics, temperament (swabhaav) across

the

> > journey. Bhakti is companionship or right train which if

correctly

> > decided, will take one to Mumbai whether or not one is aware of

> > various locations and limited activity. Thus, bhakti can be a

short

> > cut of jnana and karma. In another way, a man can go from Delhi

to

> > Mumbai alone, and is full of activity, and discovers the Mumbai.

> > Here, bhakti is not feasible but, jnana and karma are together is

> > success.

> >

> > Swabhaav (inner nature, characteristics) is transformed in a

step

> by

> > step process, and this is purpose of activity and awareness.

> Bhakti is simpler way and one can avoid tapah (austerities) which

> the discoverer like Krishna, Buddha had toiled. It is very much

like

> any other set of subjects, like Physics, high school student knows

> the ideas of Newton without spending lifetime, and this

facilitation

> is Bhakti.

> >

> > Bhagwat Gita is knowledge of transformation of ones' swabhaav

> (inner nature and tendencies). Whatever be the starting point; by

> continued practice, awareness and companionship of right kind,

goal

> is achieved sooner than later.

> > Best regards

> > K G Misra

> > (Krishna Gopal)

> > --------------------------------

--

> > Priy Sadhaka,

> > As far as I perceived from Swamiji, Knowledge is received by

Buddhi

> > (intellect) which is part of JADA Prakruti (Limited, Inert

Nature).

> > It can not know limitlessness. Therefore on the path of

knowledge,

> we feel incomplete (rather a very subtle form of ego remains).

> >

> > In MANAS Goswamiji wrote in Uttarkand that One who is intelligent

> > follows the path of devotion. Swamiji also wrote in Sadhak

> > Sanjivani : Even after getting absolute knowledge, one still

longs

> for love of God, whereas devotee from the very beginning (first

> step) develops love and relationship with God. So the devotee is

> considered to be a Gyani (intelligent). Bhagwan Sri Krishna also

> told in Geetaji : Gyani (Premi) Bhakt is my most beloved.

> >

> > Hope this helps,

> > Thanks,

> > Raja

> > (Raja Gurdasani)

> >

> > --------------------------------

> > Namaste.

> >

> > Vivekanand said: Science without faith is dangerous, Faith

without

> science is blind.

> >

> > Based on Geetaji...

> >

> > Faith (Bhakti) without Knowledge is blind.

> >

> > Knowledge (Gyan) without Faith in God is only superficial /

> material.

> >

> > We need both for spiritual progress (Ego to Atma) like two

wheels

> of a bicycle:

> >

> > Faith (Buddhi) to guide us in the right direction towards God

> (front wheel).

> >

> > Knowledge (Mind) to understand the nature of God (back wheel).

> >

> > Additionally Karmayog provides the energy to ride and Dhyanyog

to

> keep us straight.

> >

> > Our Guruji once said these four Yog are like the four legs of a

> chair to sit on for each of us.

> >

> > Maybe these are like the four wheels of a car (kar) to move us

> from Ahamkar to Omkar.

> >

> > Hope this clarifies the points raised in this discussion.

> >

> > Dr BalMukund Bhala

> >

> > --------------------------------

-

> > , " sadhak_insight "

> > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Clarification Sadhaka Message July 17th, Thursday

> > >

> > > By combining faith (path of devotion) and inquiry (path of

> > > knowledge) - sadhaka's life does not remain pure, it becomes

> > impure?

> > > Does this imply that a sadhaka cannot follow the path of

devotion

> > > and path of knowledge at the same time? Why should it make his

> > life

> > > impure? Are these paths exclusive of each other? Please

clarify.

> > >

> > >

> > > Subhash Madan

> > > Ram Ram

> > >

> > > :Shree Hari:

> > >

> > > 17th July, 2008, Thursday

> > > Aashaad Shukla Chaturdashi, Vikram Samvat 2065, Guruvar

> > >

> > > We never looks to ourselves, as to why we were born? what do we

> > > want? and what are we doing? As long as we are not attentive to

> > > these things, till that time, our position (please forgive me

for

> > > saying this), is lower than that of animals ! Our life is lower

> > > than that of animals, birds, trees etc. After being born a man,

> > > there is not that alertness, that inquiry as to whether we are

> > > really men? A man must have the alertness, and a quest to

know -

> > > why was I born? What should I do? and what should I not do?

> > >

> > > If this understanding does not come on it's own, then so be

it.

> But

> > > from the messages of the saints and scriptures, one can

> understand

> > > completely, that human birth is attained only for one's

> liberation.

> > > From God's side, He has already given this as the last birth,

> > > through which He can be realized.

> > >

> > > Brahmaji through various sacrifices (yagna) he manifests

> > > creation " sahyagyaah prajaah srhtavaapuraovaach prajaapatih, "

> (Gita

> > > 3:10). In other words, duty and the doer - they both

manifested

> at

> > > the same time. That which is " duty " is " innate " . Today, the

> > > difficulty and effort we experience in doing our duty, is due

to

> > > developing an affinity with the world. By it self the doer is

> also

> > > innate, and the duties are also innate and natural. Man himself

> > > makes them unnatural. The thought does not arise in him, that

why

> > > did he create this unnaturalness ? How did he do that? If he

> > > inquires into this then benefits are certain !

> > >

> > > Now I will share with you one thing. There are two paths - one

> the

> > > path of vishwaas (faith and belief) and another the path of

> > jigyaasa

> > > (quest for knowledge). Faith and belief is in that which one

has

> no

> > > doubt at all, where there is not even the slightest

possibility

> of

> > a

> > > doubt arising. That faith that is free of all doubts, does not

> > > arise in the form of belief and faith from the onset. Rather

> > > inquiry is on those things where there is some element of

doubt.

> In

> > > Path of Devotion (bhakti maarg), faith and belief that is free

of

> > > all doubts is primary and in the path of jnana (knowledge,

> inquiry

> > > into the Truth) some doubt / uncertainty is paramount. By

> combining

> > > faith and inquiry - a sadhak's (spiritual aspirant's) life

does

> not

> > > remain pure, it becomes impure.

> > >

> > > In what do we have faith? In that which we have no knowledge of

> > > with our sense organs and inner faculties, we may or may not

have

> > > faith in that. There are only two points - either you have

faith,

> > > or you don't have faith. Whether God exists or not, this point

is

> > > not one of belief, it is one of an inquiring seeker. (to be

> > > continued)

> > >

> > > From " Saadhan, Sudhaa, Sindhu " in Hindi pg. 706 by Swami

> > > Ramsukhdasji.

> > >

> > > Ram Ram

> > >

> > > GUIDELINES FOR POSTING A RESPONSE:

> > >

> > > 1. The group is focused on the Holy Gitaji, therefore, only

> > > responses which further clarify the understanding of Gitaji,

will

> > be

> > > posted.

> > >

> > > 2. Making reference of Gitaji shloka is highly encouraged - at

> > least

> > > once in the response. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji

or

> > > other scriptures to substantiate your response.

> > >

> > > 3. Please be as concise and to the point as possible,

respecting

> > > sadhaka's time. Under no circustance the answer should exceed

say

> > > one page at the most (500 words or so).

> > >

> > > 4. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to

the

> > > extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas

> > >

> > > 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only.

> > >

> > > 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other

> > > organizations.

> > >

> > > 7. Complete reproduction of texts from any book is strongly

> > > discouraged, however references may be made of the book or

> author

> > > (but not links to other sites).

> > >

> > > 8. Kindly do not include your personal information such as

phone

> > > number, address etc.

> > >

> > > 9. Please do not address the response to a particular

individual

> > > since the message is going to the entire group.

> > >

> > > 10. Due to the large readership, only those responses will be

> > posted

> > > which are in line with the general philosophy of taking Shrimad

> > > Bhagavad Gita as the reference.

> > >

> > > 11. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if

> > content

> > > is unclear for distribution or not directly related to the

> > question

> > > being asked.

> > >

> > > 12. Please respond taking into consideration the novices,

youth,

> > > westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use of

only

> > > Sanskrit words, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit

> > > bracketed wherever possible.

> > >

> > > MODERATOR

> > > Ram Ram

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hari Om

 

Example given by Sadhak Manmohanji may not be applicable in this

case. In Bhakti the belief never gets broken - because it is about

established truth - " I am of the God and only God is mine " . In

Bhakti, an aspirant never has to find a dead end and he can never

return wondering if he needs help of knowledeable person to

supplement. Bhakti Yoga is path in itself. Here the Laws made by

Lord Himself ensure that there are no obstacles on the path. Refer

Gita 9:22- here Lord declares , " yogakshemam vahamyaham " which

means " I shall make available whatever is necessary for aspirant to

accomplish his yoga " . Infallible laws start operating with your

reference, as soon as, you take path of devotion. Another law which

becomes operational is stated in Gita 7:21. Here Krishna takes

responsibilty of " strengthening the belief " of the believer. Your

belief will keep on strengthening.

 

There was a shortage of conviction and belief in the person

returning after seeing dead end. THERE WAS AN ELEMENT OF DOUBT IN

HIM. He in fact had already mixed doubt in his belief when he set

out and when he returned. Unfortunately in his case the belief was

not exactly the same as was the established truth (which is the

case with Bhakta) and there was nobody who took responsibilty as it

is in case of Bhakta under Gita 9:22.

 

Since he mixed doubt in his belief, therefore he has now become

dependent on knowledge. Otherwise when he started his journey, he

was all alone. So impurity has come in his path.

 

The person having map with complete instructions, topography of the

mountain, complete grasp of the path and comprehensive overview of

the obstacles did not have confidence in his knowledge. He might

have mixed some beliefs already in his knowledge when he firmed up

the topography, map, instructions, overview etc.- Which only can

result in his lack of confidence. He is in difficulty now. His life

has become impure. He now is dependent upon faith. He is not sure

whether he will reach to the top. Otherwise when he started making

maps etc. he was all alone. Need was only of the knowledge acquired

by method of " doubting " .

 

Such a situation does not arise in case of Bhakti Yogi at least -

for the reasons stated above.. Moreover Karma Yoga (KY), Jnana Yoga

(JY) and Bhakti Yoga ( BY) are independent paths, complete in

themselves.

 

But in the end they give same results by and large. In case of

Bhakti however an aspirant gets Love of God additionally. Otherwise

all three get you -

 

(i) Early accomplishment ( ref for KY Gita 5:6, for JY 4:39, for

BY 12:7),

(ii) Destruction of sins( KY 4:23, JY4:36/37 BY 18:66)

(iii) Contentment (KY 2:55,3:17, JY 6:20, BY 10:9,12:14)

(iv) Peace ( KY 2:71,5:12, JY 4:39, BY 6:15,9:31)

(v) Equanimity ( KY 4:22, JY6:29, 14:24 BY 10:10)

(vi) Knowledge ( KY 4:38, JY 13:34,BY 10:11) and

(vii) Purification of inner sense/bliss and pleasure (KY 2:64,JY

18:54 , BY 6:14) etc.

 

However many learned sadhaks have quite rightly felt that there may

be a need of taking simultaneous paths also. I do not see any thing

wrong with the same except what Swamiji has stated re: mixing of

belief in doubt, and of doubt in belief. That does create

difficulties in pursuing the JY with BY.

 

In fact in Gita also, at many places, in case of certain

qualities / features overlapping has been noticed among these 3

yogas ..

 

In KY, for example - Gita 2:61/3:30/5:10 are basically from BY and

5:7 is quality of JY. Similarly in JY - Gita 5:24/12:4 quality of

engagement in welfare of all creatures is from KY and features

stated in 13:10/14:26 are from BY.

In BY - Gita 12:11/18:46 qualities are of KY and 15:5/7:29 some

qualities stated in them are from JY.

 

Hope this clarifies the queries fully.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

 

-------------------------------

Dear Sadak,

Path of pure devotion in sorrow or happiness leads to path of

knowledge.

Example: Ramana Rishi was teenage without much education. Devotion

gave abundant knowledge. He could quote any thing from 108

Upanashids.

Recently Valalar near Chennai wrote wonderful scripts. He was much

educated. Valmiki was a thief. Only Ram Nam gave knowledge to write

Srimath Ramayan.

B.Sathyanarayan

--------------------------------

Bhakti Marg, Gyana Marg, Yoga Marg or Karma Marg - they can all

jointly or severally lead to our Creator. What is to be avoided in

all these paths is Adharma (unrighteousness). 'Rah pakad tu ek

chalachal, pa jaiga Madhushala'

Please notice, M of Madhushala is capital.

 

Dr. Jagdish Shama

 

 

-------------------------------

 

 

 

, " sadhak_insight "

<sadhak_insight wrote:

>

> Imagine two persons standing at the foot of a hill who want to go

to

> a Shiva temple, which is at the peak of the mountain. One has a

map

> with complete instructions and the topography of the mountain. He

> studies the map over and over and has complete grasp of the path

and

> the obstacles he is going to face on his journey. But he does not

> have the faith in himself if he can climb the mountain. All type

of

> doubts come in his mind and he stays at the foot of the temple

> thinking if should start or not, if he will be able to make it to

> the top or not.

>

> The other has complete faith in himself and is ready to start and

is

> sure to reach the top, but has no directions. He travels few

hundred

> yards and sees a dead end and comes back. He is at loss and can

not

> judge as which path is the right for him

>

> Then both of them talk to each other and with the faith and

> encouragement of the one and knowledge of the other , both reach

> the summit.

>

> When they were at the summit, the only thing, which mattered, was

> that both were in the temple of God and were immersed in His

bliss.

>

> It is not correct to separate these paths, as both are essential

for

> the ultimate goal.

>

> Also the second reason why they should be practiced together is

that

> one path acts as an antidote for the weakness of the other path .

> Practicing the path of knowledge has tendency to enhance the ego,

so

> the path of faith, which teaches submission, counters it.

Similarly

> path of faith has a tendency to create blind faith, and path of

> knowledge helps it to stay on the right course.

> Although various great teachers like Shankra, Chaitanya (or

> Prabhupad) , and B G Tilak have interpreted Gita to suite their

> thinking and say Gita is nothing but Gian yoga, or Bhakti yoga or

> Karam yoga , Lord Krishna has emphasized to pursue all the paths

to

> keep it in balance.

> When one has achieved the goal and has merged in Him, all these

> variations disappear.

>

> Manmohan Sehgal

> -

>

> Dear Sadaks,

> This combing does not come to one`s intellect if one has not made

> sufficient practice on spritual life in earlier birth. We can see

> many people next to us does not care even to listen devotional

songs

> when we play. This body equipment is result of our earlier karmas

> and desires. So if one has sincerly attempted spritual path and

lead

> divine life in his previous birth he automatically gets desire to

> continue in this birth. Many of us know what is Vasana. Vasana can

> be divine or worldly. Earlier birth vasana be divine then it

> contiues in present birth. This is combing.

> Buddha did combing as to why aging, death, disease etc. HIS

brother

> in law Devadatha was with Buddha for 13 years. But just before

> Buddha life to end Devadatha was claiming Buddha position. How

many

> of us question ourselves, " My end is going to be the same as that

> of a minister or begger- same cremation/burial- what happens next-

> am I not wasting time seeing things around me and not forsaking

> attachment " . This comes in mind to us like a flash, then back to

> world. Only Adi Sanakara, Buddha, Puranderdas, Tukaram, Thirupan

> Alwar can think. Body is the same composition for all. It is

> previous strong Vasana/Desire in divinity that contiues.

> B.Sathyanarayan

>

>

>

>

> -

>

> , " sadhak_insight "

> <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> >

> > Hari Om

> >

> > Here the meaning is to state that Bhakti and Jnana Yoga are

> > independent paths. In jnana yoga the doubt is essence in your

> quest.

> > Because there is curiosity in your mind for search of the truth.

> > That curiosity in fact later on leads you to the truth. Once

your

> > quest is over, and you realise the truth then you naturally

start

> > believing. But in Bhakti Yoga , the very doubt is not

acceptable.

> > You have to have total belief. Because there the devotee starts

> with

> > a mind set that his belief is truthful and in reality that is

> > truth only. In fact both Jnana Yoga and Karma Yoga are " of this

> > world " pursuits - they are in relation to the world and hence

they

> > are called " laukik " . In these two, disconnection with world

> becomes

> > the result in the end. What remains there after is eternal

> > connection with Paramatma only. Even otherwise the Paramatma is

> > connected with you..Bhakti Yoga is " alaukik " – " out of this

> world, "

> > divine path. Here you start with reality itself, that is

> connection

> > with Paramatma. Then the disconnection with the world becomes

> > automatic.. Even otherwise the world is disconnecting with you!

> >

> > If you are curious, then blind faith makes you " impure " (not

> > impious)- ashuddha. Doubt is in essence, there. Because

otherwise

> > you get into a dilemma. Similarly, when you have chosen path of

> > devotion, then any doubt makes your sadhna (striving) impure.

> There

> > is no place for doubt in Bhakti Yoga. Belief is essence there.

Any

> > way , here the hindi word used was " asuddha " (impure,

adulterated,

> > not exactly precise, confusing) and it does not mean " apavitra "

> > (impious, sinful). If your goal is Paramatma or quest for truth

> you

> > never become impious. In the process adopted by you an impurity,

> an

> > inappropriateness, an imperfection comes, if you mix doubt in

> belief

> > or belief in curiosity.

> >

> > Jai Shree Krishna

> >

> > Vyas N B

> >

> > --------------------------------

-

>

> > Loving Divine,

> > Pranam.

> > I agree that we are a mixture of bhakti (devotion), gyaan

> > (knowledge), karma (right action), dhyaan (yoga-meditation).

> > Usually that's how we start. We have doubts, questions to be

> > clarified, etc. so we use gyaan yoga. But what Swamiji is

saying

> > when one is truly surrendered, no doubt/question arises in

> devotee's

> > mind because true devotee is completely dependent on God and the

> > attitude is whatever God does, He knows what is best for me so

> there

> > is no question or doubt or objection or desire to change the

> > situation arising in him/her. This is a true state of bhakti.

> But

> > if you have questions or doubts need to be resolved, if you

think

> > why me God, or if you pray to change the present situation or

> > object, it is not true bhakti because you have not surrendered

> > completely yet to God and finding answers require enquiry, so it

> is

> > gyaan yoga. When one is questioning, objection, enquiring, one

is

> > not truly surrendered and when one is all stops! Do you see the

> > subtle difference between them? When we start, we are like baby

> > monkey - I am holding on to my Mother (Divine) while She jumps

> from

> > one place to other. We trust Her but still it is I who is

holding

> > on - the subtle ego remains. In the other case - bhakta, on the

> > contrary is a person like a kitten. Where ever my Mother takes

me

> > She is the one who has to carry me and I am always happy in

where

> > ever she takes me.

> >

> > Hope this helps...

> > humble regards,

> > always at Thy Divine Feet

> >

> > Manjula Patel

> >

> >

> > --------------------------------

--

> -

> > , " sadhak_insight "

> > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Dear Sadhak,

> > > Bhakti (companionship, togetherness of those in similar inner

> > > feeling or swabhaav) and Jnana (awareness of the current

> position

> > of

> > > one's inner nature or swabhaav) and Karma (activity of

> correction

> > or

> > > improvement in the inner and innate nature or swbhaav) can

lead

> to

> > > Yoga (truth). This paradigm of Bhakti yoga, Jnana yoga and

Karma

> > > yoga are terms of critical understanding of the Bhagwat Gita

> > > techniques.

> > >

> > > If one is going from Delhi to Mumbai, the path or railway

route

> is

> > > equivalent of Dharma, but different milestones specifying

> location

> > > of inner nature, characteristics, temperament (swabhaav)

across

> the

> > > journey. Bhakti is companionship or right train which if

> correctly

> > > decided, will take one to Mumbai whether or not one is aware of

> > > various locations and limited activity. Thus, bhakti can be a

> short

> > > cut of jnana and karma. In another way, a man can go from

Delhi

> to

> > > Mumbai alone, and is full of activity, and discovers the

Mumbai.

> > > Here, bhakti is not feasible but, jnana and karma are together

is

> > > success.

> > >

> > > Swabhaav (inner nature, characteristics) is transformed in a

> step

> > by

> > > step process, and this is purpose of activity and awareness.

> > Bhakti is simpler way and one can avoid tapah (austerities)

which

> > the discoverer like Krishna, Buddha had toiled. It is very much

> like

> > any other set of subjects, like Physics, high school student

knows

> > the ideas of Newton without spending lifetime, and this

> facilitation

> > is Bhakti.

> > >

> > > Bhagwat Gita is knowledge of transformation of ones' swabhaav

> > (inner nature and tendencies). Whatever be the starting point;

by

> > continued practice, awareness and companionship of right kind,

> goal

> > is achieved sooner than later.

> > > Best regards

> > > K G Misra

> > > (Krishna Gopal)

> > > ------------------------------

--

> --

> > > Priy Sadhaka,

> > > As far as I perceived from Swamiji, Knowledge is received by

> Buddhi

> > > (intellect) which is part of JADA Prakruti (Limited, Inert

> Nature).

> > > It can not know limitlessness. Therefore on the path of

> knowledge,

> > we feel incomplete (rather a very subtle form of ego remains).

> > >

> > > In MANAS Goswamiji wrote in Uttarkand that One who is

intelligent

> > > follows the path of devotion. Swamiji also wrote in Sadhak

> > > Sanjivani : Even after getting absolute knowledge, one still

> longs

> > for love of God, whereas devotee from the very beginning (first

> > step) develops love and relationship with God. So the devotee

is

> > considered to be a Gyani (intelligent). Bhagwan Sri Krishna also

> > told in Geetaji : Gyani (Premi) Bhakt is my most beloved.

> > >

> > > Hope this helps,

> > > Thanks,

> > > Raja

> > > (Raja Gurdasani)

> > >

> > > ------------------------------

--

> > > Namaste.

> > >

> > > Vivekanand said: Science without faith is dangerous, Faith

> without

> > science is blind.

> > >

> > > Based on Geetaji...

> > >

> > > Faith (Bhakti) without Knowledge is blind.

> > >

> > > Knowledge (Gyan) without Faith in God is only superficial /

> > material.

> > >

> > > We need both for spiritual progress (Ego to Atma) like two

> wheels

> > of a bicycle:

> > >

> > > Faith (Buddhi) to guide us in the right direction towards God

> > (front wheel).

> > >

> > > Knowledge (Mind) to understand the nature of God (back wheel).

> > >

> > > Additionally Karmayog provides the energy to ride and Dhyanyog

> to

> > keep us straight.

> > >

> > > Our Guruji once said these four Yog are like the four legs of

a

> > chair to sit on for each of us.

> > >

> > > Maybe these are like the four wheels of a car (kar) to move us

> > from Ahamkar to Omkar.

> > >

> > > Hope this clarifies the points raised in this discussion.

> > >

> > > Dr BalMukund Bhala

> > >

> > > ------------------------------

--

> -

> > > , " sadhak_insight "

> > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Clarification Sadhaka Message July 17th, Thursday

> > > >

> > > > By combining faith (path of devotion) and inquiry (path of

> > > > knowledge) - sadhaka's life does not remain pure, it becomes

> > > impure?

> > > > Does this imply that a sadhaka cannot follow the path of

> devotion

> > > > and path of knowledge at the same time? Why should it make

his

> > > life

> > > > impure? Are these paths exclusive of each other? Please

> clarify.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Subhash Madan

> > > > Ram Ram

> > > >

> > > > :Shree Hari:

> > > >

> > > > 17th July, 2008, Thursday

> > > > Aashaad Shukla Chaturdashi, Vikram Samvat 2065, Guruvar

> > > >

> > > > We never looks to ourselves, as to why we were born? what do

we

> > > > want? and what are we doing? As long as we are not attentive

to

> > > > these things, till that time, our position (please forgive

me

> for

> > > > saying this), is lower than that of animals ! Our life is

lower

> > > > than that of animals, birds, trees etc. After being born a

man,

> > > > there is not that alertness, that inquiry as to whether we

are

> > > > really men? A man must have the alertness, and a quest to

> know -

> > > > why was I born? What should I do? and what should I not do?

> > > >

> > > > If this understanding does not come on it's own, then so be

> it.

> > But

> > > > from the messages of the saints and scriptures, one can

> > understand

> > > > completely, that human birth is attained only for one's

> > liberation.

> > > > From God's side, He has already given this as the last birth,

> > > > through which He can be realized.

> > > >

> > > > Brahmaji through various sacrifices (yagna) he manifests

> > > > creation " sahyagyaah prajaah srhtavaapuraovaach

prajaapatih, "

> > (Gita

> > > > 3:10). In other words, duty and the doer - they both

> manifested

> > at

> > > > the same time. That which is " duty " is " innate " . Today, the

> > > > difficulty and effort we experience in doing our duty, is

due

> to

> > > > developing an affinity with the world. By it self the doer

is

> > also

> > > > innate, and the duties are also innate and natural. Man

himself

> > > > makes them unnatural. The thought does not arise in him,

that

> why

> > > > did he create this unnaturalness ? How did he do that? If he

> > > > inquires into this then benefits are certain !

> > > >

> > > > Now I will share with you one thing. There are two paths -

one

> > the

> > > > path of vishwaas (faith and belief) and another the path of

> > > jigyaasa

> > > > (quest for knowledge). Faith and belief is in that which one

> has

> > no

> > > > doubt at all, where there is not even the slightest

> possibility

> > of

> > > a

> > > > doubt arising. That faith that is free of all doubts, does

not

> > > > arise in the form of belief and faith from the onset. Rather

> > > > inquiry is on those things where there is some element of

> doubt.

> > In

> > > > Path of Devotion (bhakti maarg), faith and belief that is

free

> of

> > > > all doubts is primary and in the path of jnana (knowledge,

> > inquiry

> > > > into the Truth) some doubt / uncertainty is paramount. By

> > combining

> > > > faith and inquiry - a sadhak's (spiritual aspirant's) life

> does

> > not

> > > > remain pure, it becomes impure.

> > > >

> > > > In what do we have faith? In that which we have no knowledge

of

> > > > with our sense organs and inner faculties, we may or may not

> have

> > > > faith in that. There are only two points - either you have

> faith,

> > > > or you don't have faith. Whether God exists or not, this

point

> is

> > > > not one of belief, it is one of an inquiring seeker. (to be

> > > > continued)

> > > >

> > > > From " Saadhan, Sudhaa, Sindhu " in Hindi pg. 706 by Swami

> > > > Ramsukhdasji.

> > > >

> > > > Ram Ram

> > > >

> > > > GUIDELINES FOR POSTING A RESPONSE:

> > > >

> > > > 1. The group is focused on the Holy Gitaji, therefore, only

> > > > responses which further clarify the understanding of Gitaji,

> will

> > > be

> > > > posted.

> > > >

> > > > 2. Making reference of Gitaji shloka is highly encouraged -

at

> > > least

> > > > once in the response. Wherever possible, please quote

Gitaji

> or

> > > > other scriptures to substantiate your response.

> > > >

> > > > 3. Please be as concise and to the point as possible,

> respecting

> > > > sadhaka's time. Under no circustance the answer should

exceed

> say

> > > > one page at the most (500 words or so).

> > > >

> > > > 4. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to

> the

> > > > extent that they further help in understanding the Gita

shlokas

> > > >

> > > > 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only.

> > > >

> > > > 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other

> > > > organizations.

> > > >

> > > > 7. Complete reproduction of texts from any book is strongly

> > > > discouraged, however references may be made of the book or

> > author

> > > > (but not links to other sites).

> > > >

> > > > 8. Kindly do not include your personal information such as

> phone

> > > > number, address etc.

> > > >

> > > > 9. Please do not address the response to a particular

> individual

> > > > since the message is going to the entire group.

> > > >

> > > > 10. Due to the large readership, only those responses will be

> > > posted

> > > > which are in line with the general philosophy of taking

Shrimad

> > > > Bhagavad Gita as the reference.

> > > >

> > > > 11. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if

> > > content

> > > > is unclear for distribution or not directly related to the

> > > question

> > > > being asked.

> > > >

> > > > 12. Please respond taking into consideration the novices,

> youth,

> > > > westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use of

> only

> > > > Sanskrit words, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit

> > > > bracketed wherever possible.

> > > >

> > > > MODERATOR

> > > > Ram Ram

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Jai Shri Krishna,

 

I agree with Sadhak Sathyanarainji. Knowledge comes later on.

 

" Knowledge " in fact in case of all 3 yogas comes as an end result

upon accomplishment of Yoga- and not before. " Knowledge " , in

spiritual and Gita terminology is not information, it is that

element after knowing which nothing remains to be known. It

satiates/extinguishes the very desire in you - " to know something "

You have known everthing.

 

It goes without saying that the moment doubt comes, the faith

extinguishes. The terms are 100 percent opposite to each other. Just

as darkness and Sun can't remain together- so is the case between

faith and doubt. If you have doubt, where is Faith? If you have

faith , where is the question of doubt? Both can't remain together.

 

It is also a fact that advent of knowledge about anything destroys

at that moment itself the faith pertaining to that thing- just as

advent of sun rays instantly destroys darkness . Where is the

question of faith when express knowledge is available? Therefore

the faith is always placed in respect of that thing about which

knowledge is not available.

 

Belief in fact is one of the only 3 powers which a human being has

got. It is not an ordinary thing. In fact Gita has allocated one

entire chapter on belief only!

Another thing to be kept in mind is that these ways have thoroughly

independent and vastly different means/methodologies/processes. It

is like one starting journey towards west and another towards east.

Since the world is round they meet in the end !

 

A Bhakta starts his journey by changing his Aham ( Ego) from " I am

of the world. World is mine " to " I am of Paramatma. Only Paramatma

is mine. Nothing else is mine "

 

Now this is an established Truth. Irrespective of whether you have

faith or not, you are of Him, Only He is yours and nothing else is

yours. Now if you doubt this, established truth itself, where will

you reach? You will only drive your self towards false hood.

 

Therefore Swamiji told never mix doubt with faith. It will make you

impure ! !

 

Paramatma is beyond knowledge. A Jnana Yogi has nothing to do with

Paramatma at the start of his journey. His goal is SELF. Now in

that goal you must have doubt. Is body mine? Doubt. Answer- No! Is

world mine? Doubt. Answer -No! Is body me? Doubt. Answer-No! Do I

need anything for myself? Doubt. Answer-No.....and so on.

 

Now if you mix faith here, where will you reach? How will you

acquire knowledge, if you are acting on faith? A Jnana Yogi is more

sterner than a scientist in his attitude. He can't establish into

SELF otherwise.

 

Therefore Swamiji told never mix faith in doubt(means of acquiring

knowledge). It will make your life impure.

 

Narayana Narayana

 

Rajendra J Bohra

 

 

, " sadhak_insight "

<sadhak_insight wrote:

>

> Hari Om

>

> Example given by Sadhak Manmohanji may not be applicable in this

> case. In Bhakti the belief never gets broken - because it is about

> established truth - " I am of the God and only God is mine " . In

> Bhakti, an aspirant never has to find a dead end and he can never

> return wondering if he needs help of knowledeable person to

> supplement. Bhakti Yoga is path in itself. Here the Laws made by

> Lord Himself ensure that there are no obstacles on the path. Refer

> Gita 9:22- here Lord declares , " yogakshemam vahamyaham " which

> means " I shall make available whatever is necessary for aspirant

to

> accomplish his yoga " . Infallible laws start operating with your

> reference, as soon as, you take path of devotion. Another law

which

> becomes operational is stated in Gita 7:21. Here Krishna takes

> responsibilty of " strengthening the belief " of the believer. Your

> belief will keep on strengthening.

>

> There was a shortage of conviction and belief in the person

> returning after seeing dead end. THERE WAS AN ELEMENT OF DOUBT IN

> HIM. He in fact had already mixed doubt in his belief when he set

> out and when he returned. Unfortunately in his case the belief was

> not exactly the same as was the established truth (which is the

> case with Bhakta) and there was nobody who took responsibilty as

it

> is in case of Bhakta under Gita 9:22.

>

> Since he mixed doubt in his belief, therefore he has now become

> dependent on knowledge. Otherwise when he started his journey, he

> was all alone. So impurity has come in his path.

>

> The person having map with complete instructions, topography of

the

> mountain, complete grasp of the path and comprehensive overview of

> the obstacles did not have confidence in his knowledge. He might

> have mixed some beliefs already in his knowledge when he firmed up

> the topography, map, instructions, overview etc.- Which only can

> result in his lack of confidence. He is in difficulty now. His

life

> has become impure. He now is dependent upon faith. He is not sure

> whether he will reach to the top. Otherwise when he started making

> maps etc. he was all alone. Need was only of the knowledge

acquired

> by method of " doubting " .

>

> Such a situation does not arise in case of Bhakti Yogi at least -

> for the reasons stated above.. Moreover Karma Yoga (KY), Jnana

Yoga

> (JY) and Bhakti Yoga ( BY) are independent paths, complete in

> themselves.

>

> But in the end they give same results by and large. In case of

> Bhakti however an aspirant gets Love of God additionally.

Otherwise

> all three get you -

>

> (i) Early accomplishment ( ref for KY Gita 5:6, for JY 4:39, for

> BY 12:7),

> (ii) Destruction of sins( KY 4:23, JY4:36/37 BY 18:66)

> (iii) Contentment (KY 2:55,3:17, JY 6:20, BY 10:9,12:14)

> (iv) Peace ( KY 2:71,5:12, JY 4:39, BY 6:15,9:31)

> (v) Equanimity ( KY 4:22, JY6:29, 14:24 BY 10:10)

> (vi) Knowledge ( KY 4:38, JY 13:34,BY 10:11) and

> (vii) Purification of inner sense/bliss and pleasure (KY 2:64,JY

> 18:54 , BY 6:14) etc.

>

> However many learned sadhaks have quite rightly felt that there

may

> be a need of taking simultaneous paths also. I do not see any

thing

> wrong with the same except what Swamiji has stated re: mixing of

> belief in doubt, and of doubt in belief. That does create

> difficulties in pursuing the JY with BY.

>

> In fact in Gita also, at many places, in case of certain

> qualities / features overlapping has been noticed among these 3

> yogas ..

>

> In KY, for example - Gita 2:61/3:30/5:10 are basically from BY and

> 5:7 is quality of JY. Similarly in JY - Gita 5:24/12:4 quality of

> engagement in welfare of all creatures is from KY and features

> stated in 13:10/14:26 are from BY.

> In BY - Gita 12:11/18:46 qualities are of KY and 15:5/7:29 some

> qualities stated in them are from JY.

>

> Hope this clarifies the queries fully.

>

> Jai Shree Krishna

>

> Vyas N B

>

> -------------------------------

> Dear Sadak,

> Path of pure devotion in sorrow or happiness leads to path of

> knowledge.

> Example: Ramana Rishi was teenage without much education. Devotion

> gave abundant knowledge. He could quote any thing from 108

> Upanashids.

> Recently Valalar near Chennai wrote wonderful scripts. He was much

> educated. Valmiki was a thief. Only Ram Nam gave knowledge to

write

> Srimath Ramayan.

> B.Sathyanarayan

> --------------------------------

> Bhakti Marg, Gyana Marg, Yoga Marg or Karma Marg - they can all

> jointly or severally lead to our Creator. What is to be avoided in

> all these paths is Adharma (unrighteousness). 'Rah pakad tu ek

> chalachal, pa jaiga Madhushala'

> Please notice, M of Madhushala is capital.

>

> Dr. Jagdish Shama

>

>

> -------------------------------

>

>

>

> , " sadhak_insight "

> <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> >

> > Imagine two persons standing at the foot of a hill who want to

go

> to

> > a Shiva temple, which is at the peak of the mountain. One has a

> map

> > with complete instructions and the topography of the mountain.

He

> > studies the map over and over and has complete grasp of the path

> and

> > the obstacles he is going to face on his journey. But he does

not

> > have the faith in himself if he can climb the mountain. All type

> of

> > doubts come in his mind and he stays at the foot of the temple

> > thinking if should start or not, if he will be able to make it

to

> > the top or not.

> >

> > The other has complete faith in himself and is ready to start

and

> is

> > sure to reach the top, but has no directions. He travels few

> hundred

> > yards and sees a dead end and comes back. He is at loss and can

> not

> > judge as which path is the right for him

> >

> > Then both of them talk to each other and with the faith and

> > encouragement of the one and knowledge of the other , both

reach

> > the summit.

> >

> > When they were at the summit, the only thing, which mattered,

was

> > that both were in the temple of God and were immersed in His

> bliss.

> >

> > It is not correct to separate these paths, as both are essential

> for

> > the ultimate goal.

> >

> > Also the second reason why they should be practiced together is

> that

> > one path acts as an antidote for the weakness of the other

path .

> > Practicing the path of knowledge has tendency to enhance the

ego,

> so

> > the path of faith, which teaches submission, counters it.

> Similarly

> > path of faith has a tendency to create blind faith, and path of

> > knowledge helps it to stay on the right course.

> > Although various great teachers like Shankra, Chaitanya (or

> > Prabhupad) , and B G Tilak have interpreted Gita to suite their

> > thinking and say Gita is nothing but Gian yoga, or Bhakti yoga

or

> > Karam yoga , Lord Krishna has emphasized to pursue all the paths

> to

> > keep it in balance.

> > When one has achieved the goal and has merged in Him, all these

> > variations disappear.

> >

> > Manmohan Sehgal

> > --------------------------------

--

> >

> > Dear Sadaks,

> > This combing does not come to one`s intellect if one has not

made

> > sufficient practice on spritual life in earlier birth. We can

see

> > many people next to us does not care even to listen devotional

> songs

> > when we play. This body equipment is result of our earlier

karmas

> > and desires. So if one has sincerly attempted spritual path and

> lead

> > divine life in his previous birth he automatically gets desire

to

> > continue in this birth. Many of us know what is Vasana. Vasana

can

> > be divine or worldly. Earlier birth vasana be divine then it

> > contiues in present birth. This is combing.

> > Buddha did combing as to why aging, death, disease etc. HIS

> brother

> > in law Devadatha was with Buddha for 13 years. But just before

> > Buddha life to end Devadatha was claiming Buddha position. How

> many

> > of us question ourselves, " My end is going to be the same as

that

> > of a minister or begger- same cremation/burial- what happens

next-

> > am I not wasting time seeing things around me and not forsaking

> > attachment " . This comes in mind to us like a flash, then back to

> > world. Only Adi Sanakara, Buddha, Puranderdas, Tukaram, Thirupan

> > Alwar can think. Body is the same composition for all. It is

> > previous strong Vasana/Desire in divinity that contiues.

> > B.Sathyanarayan

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > --------------------------------

--

> >

> > , " sadhak_insight "

> > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Hari Om

> > >

> > > Here the meaning is to state that Bhakti and Jnana Yoga are

> > > independent paths. In jnana yoga the doubt is essence in your

> > quest.

> > > Because there is curiosity in your mind for search of the

truth.

> > > That curiosity in fact later on leads you to the truth. Once

> your

> > > quest is over, and you realise the truth then you naturally

> start

> > > believing. But in Bhakti Yoga , the very doubt is not

> acceptable.

> > > You have to have total belief. Because there the devotee

starts

> > with

> > > a mind set that his belief is truthful and in reality that

is

> > > truth only. In fact both Jnana Yoga and Karma Yoga are " of

this

> > > world " pursuits - they are in relation to the world and hence

> they

> > > are called " laukik " . In these two, disconnection with world

> > becomes

> > > the result in the end. What remains there after is eternal

> > > connection with Paramatma only. Even otherwise the Paramatma

is

> > > connected with you..Bhakti Yoga is " alaukik " – " out of this

> > world, "

> > > divine path. Here you start with reality itself, that is

> > connection

> > > with Paramatma. Then the disconnection with the world becomes

> > > automatic.. Even otherwise the world is disconnecting with

you!

> > >

> > > If you are curious, then blind faith makes you " impure " (not

> > > impious)- ashuddha. Doubt is in essence, there. Because

> otherwise

> > > you get into a dilemma. Similarly, when you have chosen path

of

> > > devotion, then any doubt makes your sadhna (striving) impure.

> > There

> > > is no place for doubt in Bhakti Yoga. Belief is essence there.

> Any

> > > way , here the hindi word used was " asuddha " (impure,

> adulterated,

> > > not exactly precise, confusing) and it does not mean "

apavitra "

> > > (impious, sinful). If your goal is Paramatma or quest for

truth

> > you

> > > never become impious. In the process adopted by you an

impurity,

> > an

> > > inappropriateness, an imperfection comes, if you mix doubt in

> > belief

> > > or belief in curiosity.

> > >

> > > Jai Shree Krishna

> > >

> > > Vyas N B

> > >

> > > ------------------------------

--

> -

> >

> > > Loving Divine,

> > > Pranam.

> > > I agree that we are a mixture of bhakti (devotion), gyaan

> > > (knowledge), karma (right action), dhyaan (yoga-meditation).

> > > Usually that's how we start. We have doubts, questions to be

> > > clarified, etc. so we use gyaan yoga. But what Swamiji is

> saying

> > > when one is truly surrendered, no doubt/question arises in

> > devotee's

> > > mind because true devotee is completely dependent on God and

the

> > > attitude is whatever God does, He knows what is best for me so

> > there

> > > is no question or doubt or objection or desire to change the

> > > situation arising in him/her. This is a true state of

bhakti.

> > But

> > > if you have questions or doubts need to be resolved, if you

> think

> > > why me God, or if you pray to change the present situation or

> > > object, it is not true bhakti because you have not surrendered

> > > completely yet to God and finding answers require enquiry, so

it

> > is

> > > gyaan yoga. When one is questioning, objection, enquiring,

one

> is

> > > not truly surrendered and when one is all stops! Do you see

the

> > > subtle difference between them? When we start, we are like

baby

> > > monkey - I am holding on to my Mother (Divine) while She jumps

> > from

> > > one place to other. We trust Her but still it is I who is

> holding

> > > on - the subtle ego remains. In the other case - bhakta, on

the

> > > contrary is a person like a kitten. Where ever my Mother

takes

> me

> > > She is the one who has to carry me and I am always happy in

> where

> > > ever she takes me.

> > >

> > > Hope this helps...

> > > humble regards,

> > > always at Thy Divine Feet

> > >

> > > Manjula Patel

> > >

> > >

> > > ------------------------------

--

> --

> > -

> > > , " sadhak_insight "

> > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Dear Sadhak,

> > > > Bhakti (companionship, togetherness of those in similar inner

> > > > feeling or swabhaav) and Jnana (awareness of the current

> > position

> > > of

> > > > one's inner nature or swabhaav) and Karma (activity of

> > correction

> > > or

> > > > improvement in the inner and innate nature or swbhaav) can

> lead

> > to

> > > > Yoga (truth). This paradigm of Bhakti yoga, Jnana yoga and

> Karma

> > > > yoga are terms of critical understanding of the Bhagwat Gita

> > > > techniques.

> > > >

> > > > If one is going from Delhi to Mumbai, the path or railway

> route

> > is

> > > > equivalent of Dharma, but different milestones specifying

> > location

> > > > of inner nature, characteristics, temperament (swabhaav)

> across

> > the

> > > > journey. Bhakti is companionship or right train which if

> > correctly

> > > > decided, will take one to Mumbai whether or not one is aware

of

> > > > various locations and limited activity. Thus, bhakti can be

a

> > short

> > > > cut of jnana and karma. In another way, a man can go from

> Delhi

> > to

> > > > Mumbai alone, and is full of activity, and discovers the

> Mumbai.

> > > > Here, bhakti is not feasible but, jnana and karma are

together

> is

> > > > success.

> > > >

> > > > Swabhaav (inner nature, characteristics) is transformed in a

> > step

> > > by

> > > > step process, and this is purpose of activity and

awareness.

> > > Bhakti is simpler way and one can avoid tapah (austerities)

> which

> > > the discoverer like Krishna, Buddha had toiled. It is very

much

> > like

> > > any other set of subjects, like Physics, high school student

> knows

> > > the ideas of Newton without spending lifetime, and this

> > facilitation

> > > is Bhakti.

> > > >

> > > > Bhagwat Gita is knowledge of transformation of ones'

swabhaav

> > > (inner nature and tendencies). Whatever be the starting

point;

> by

> > > continued practice, awareness and companionship of right kind,

> > goal

> > > is achieved sooner than later.

> > > > Best regards

> > > > K G Misra

> > > > (Krishna Gopal)

> > > > ----------------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > > Priy Sadhaka,

> > > > As far as I perceived from Swamiji, Knowledge is received by

> > Buddhi

> > > > (intellect) which is part of JADA Prakruti (Limited, Inert

> > Nature).

> > > > It can not know limitlessness. Therefore on the path of

> > knowledge,

> > > we feel incomplete (rather a very subtle form of ego remains).

> > > >

> > > > In MANAS Goswamiji wrote in Uttarkand that One who is

> intelligent

> > > > follows the path of devotion. Swamiji also wrote in Sadhak

> > > > Sanjivani : Even after getting absolute knowledge, one still

> > longs

> > > for love of God, whereas devotee from the very beginning

(first

> > > step) develops love and relationship with God. So the devotee

> is

> > > considered to be a Gyani (intelligent). Bhagwan Sri Krishna

also

> > > told in Geetaji : Gyani (Premi) Bhakt is my most beloved.

> > > >

> > > > Hope this helps,

> > > > Thanks,

> > > > Raja

> > > > (Raja Gurdasani)

> > > >

> > > > ----------------------------

--

> --

> > > > Namaste.

> > > >

> > > > Vivekanand said: Science without faith is dangerous, Faith

> > without

> > > science is blind.

> > > >

> > > > Based on Geetaji...

> > > >

> > > > Faith (Bhakti) without Knowledge is blind.

> > > >

> > > > Knowledge (Gyan) without Faith in God is only superficial /

> > > material.

> > > >

> > > > We need both for spiritual progress (Ego to Atma) like two

> > wheels

> > > of a bicycle:

> > > >

> > > > Faith (Buddhi) to guide us in the right direction towards

God

> > > (front wheel).

> > > >

> > > > Knowledge (Mind) to understand the nature of God (back

wheel).

> > > >

> > > > Additionally Karmayog provides the energy to ride and

Dhyanyog

> > to

> > > keep us straight.

> > > >

> > > > Our Guruji once said these four Yog are like the four legs

of

> a

> > > chair to sit on for each of us.

> > > >

> > > > Maybe these are like the four wheels of a car (kar) to move

us

> > > from Ahamkar to Omkar.

> > > >

> > > > Hope this clarifies the points raised in this discussion.

> > > >

> > > > Dr BalMukund Bhala

> > > >

> > > > ----------------------------

--

> --

> > -

> > > > , " sadhak_insight "

> > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > Clarification Sadhaka Message July 17th, Thursday

> > > > >

> > > > > By combining faith (path of devotion) and inquiry (path of

> > > > > knowledge) - sadhaka's life does not remain pure, it

becomes

> > > > impure?

> > > > > Does this imply that a sadhaka cannot follow the path of

> > devotion

> > > > > and path of knowledge at the same time? Why should it make

> his

> > > > life

> > > > > impure? Are these paths exclusive of each other? Please

> > clarify.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Subhash Madan

> > > > > Ram Ram

> > > > >

> > > > > :Shree Hari:

> > > > >

> > > > > 17th July, 2008, Thursday

> > > > > Aashaad Shukla Chaturdashi, Vikram Samvat 2065, Guruvar

> > > > >

> > > > > We never looks to ourselves, as to why we were born? what

do

> we

> > > > > want? and what are we doing? As long as we are not

attentive

> to

> > > > > these things, till that time, our position (please forgive

> me

> > for

> > > > > saying this), is lower than that of animals ! Our life is

> lower

> > > > > than that of animals, birds, trees etc. After being born a

> man,

> > > > > there is not that alertness, that inquiry as to whether we

> are

> > > > > really men? A man must have the alertness, and a quest to

> > know -

> > > > > why was I born? What should I do? and what should I not do?

> > > > >

> > > > > If this understanding does not come on it's own, then so

be

> > it.

> > > But

> > > > > from the messages of the saints and scriptures, one can

> > > understand

> > > > > completely, that human birth is attained only for one's

> > > liberation.

> > > > > From God's side, He has already given this as the last

birth,

> > > > > through which He can be realized.

> > > > >

> > > > > Brahmaji through various sacrifices (yagna) he manifests

> > > > > creation " sahyagyaah prajaah srhtavaapuraovaach

> prajaapatih, "

> > > (Gita

> > > > > 3:10). In other words, duty and the doer - they both

> > manifested

> > > at

> > > > > the same time. That which is " duty " is " innate " . Today, the

> > > > > difficulty and effort we experience in doing our duty, is

> due

> > to

> > > > > developing an affinity with the world. By it self the doer

> is

> > > also

> > > > > innate, and the duties are also innate and natural. Man

> himself

> > > > > makes them unnatural. The thought does not arise in him,

> that

> > why

> > > > > did he create this unnaturalness ? How did he do that? If

he

> > > > > inquires into this then benefits are certain !

> > > > >

> > > > > Now I will share with you one thing. There are two paths -

> one

> > > the

> > > > > path of vishwaas (faith and belief) and another the path of

> > > > jigyaasa

> > > > > (quest for knowledge). Faith and belief is in that which

one

> > has

> > > no

> > > > > doubt at all, where there is not even the slightest

> > possibility

> > > of

> > > > a

> > > > > doubt arising. That faith that is free of all doubts, does

> not

> > > > > arise in the form of belief and faith from the onset.

Rather

> > > > > inquiry is on those things where there is some element of

> > doubt.

> > > In

> > > > > Path of Devotion (bhakti maarg), faith and belief that is

> free

> > of

> > > > > all doubts is primary and in the path of jnana (knowledge,

> > > inquiry

> > > > > into the Truth) some doubt / uncertainty is paramount. By

> > > combining

> > > > > faith and inquiry - a sadhak's (spiritual aspirant's) life

> > does

> > > not

> > > > > remain pure, it becomes impure.

> > > > >

> > > > > In what do we have faith? In that which we have no

knowledge

> of

> > > > > with our sense organs and inner faculties, we may or may

not

> > have

> > > > > faith in that. There are only two points - either you have

> > faith,

> > > > > or you don't have faith. Whether God exists or not, this

> point

> > is

> > > > > not one of belief, it is one of an inquiring seeker. (to be

> > > > > continued)

> > > > >

> > > > > From " Saadhan, Sudhaa, Sindhu " in Hindi pg. 706 by Swami

> > > > > Ramsukhdasji.

> > > > >

> > > > > Ram Ram

> > > > >

> > > > > GUIDELINES FOR POSTING A RESPONSE:

> > > > >

> > > > > 1. The group is focused on the Holy Gitaji, therefore, only

> > > > > responses which further clarify the understanding of

Gitaji,

> > will

> > > > be

> > > > > posted.

> > > > >

> > > > > 2. Making reference of Gitaji shloka is highly encouraged -

 

> at

> > > > least

> > > > > once in the response. Wherever possible, please quote

> Gitaji

> > or

> > > > > other scriptures to substantiate your response.

> > > > >

> > > > > 3. Please be as concise and to the point as possible,

> > respecting

> > > > > sadhaka's time. Under no circustance the answer should

> exceed

> > say

> > > > > one page at the most (500 words or so).

> > > > >

> > > > > 4. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc.

to

> > the

> > > > > extent that they further help in understanding the Gita

> shlokas

> > > > >

> > > > > 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only.

> > > > >

> > > > > 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other

> > > > > organizations.

> > > > >

> > > > > 7. Complete reproduction of texts from any book is strongly

> > > > > discouraged, however references may be made of the book

or

> > > author

> > > > > (but not links to other sites).

> > > > >

> > > > > 8. Kindly do not include your personal information such as

> > phone

> > > > > number, address etc.

> > > > >

> > > > > 9. Please do not address the response to a particular

> > individual

> > > > > since the message is going to the entire group.

> > > > >

> > > > > 10. Due to the large readership, only those responses will

be

> > > > posted

> > > > > which are in line with the general philosophy of taking

> Shrimad

> > > > > Bhagavad Gita as the reference.

> > > > >

> > > > > 11. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if

> > > > content

> > > > > is unclear for distribution or not directly related to the

> > > > question

> > > > > being asked.

> > > > >

> > > > > 12. Please respond taking into consideration the novices,

> > youth,

> > > > > westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use

of

> > only

> > > > > Sanskrit words, rather provide the English word with

Sanskrit

> > > > > bracketed wherever possible.

> > > > >

> > > > > MODERATOR

> > > > > Ram Ram

[Guest guest]

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

After reading the responses below, if there are no further doubts , regarding

the question posed by Subhashji, we bring this question to a closure to pursue

a new topic for discussion.

From Gita Talk Moderator

Ram Ram

 

 

Subhashji's Question:

Regarding combining faith (path of devotion) and inquiry (path of knowledge) -

sadhaka's life does not remain pure, it becomes

impure? Does this imply that a sadhaka cannot follow the path of

devotion and path of knowledge at the same time? Why should it

make his life impure? Are these paths exclusive of each other? Please

clarify.

Subhash Madan

 

------------------------------

-Shree Hari-

I found Rajendra J Bohra comments most interesting.

 

I often thought how did this journey start?(In my case that is).

Something like this; Does what I am being taught of spiritual matters

hold up to deep thought NO!

Do I feel that these 'Holy' texts agree NO!

Do I have blind faith No!

Am I afraid to stand alone NO!

Does science have all the answers, in fact does science agree NO!

This process , goes on for decades .

Then a change starts to occur sometimes mixed with NO responses.

Something like this; OK if science stumbles over the source of

existence, then where are the answers?

Right let me see now, if at the very deepest quantum level all

matter is energy vibration, and some scientist believe all existence

comes in and out of reality at a high frequency, does any religion

deal with such things.

Many more questions of course, but then my head started to look

towards 'Eastern Wisdom'.

Because it seemed to deal with the things I had experienced, the

things I had learned and unlearned.

And now to the Bhagavad Gita. Does it vibrate with truth and the

Sacred YES!

 

With Respect and Divine Love

 

Mike

(Mike Keenor)

--

Hari Om

 

I fully agree with Sadhak Rajendraji.

 

Every Yoga ultimately drives the aspirant towards - " disconnection

with the world " . As soon as disconnection takes place , eternal

connection with Paramatma comes into realisation, into experience !!

 

That is why Paramatma is always " realised/attained " not " got " . You

remember/recollect your an already existing eternal connection

with Paramatma (smartir labdha- I have now remembered/recollected-

Gita 18 :73 - last words of Arjuna)

 

A Bhakta starts his spiritual journey with the outlook-

 

" I am of the Paramatma. He only is mine and nothing else is mine. "

 

He surrenders and/or does every action only in relation with

Paramatma, gets wholly dependent on Him and very soon starts

realising that all others around him are as good of Paramatma as is

he himself. Then the world disappears for him. He sees Paramatma

everywhere. Friendliness and compassion enter his attitude

naturally. He in the end " attains " (realises) love of Paramatma. He

becomes " indivisible " with Him. He has nothing to attain (realise)

now.

 

A Jnana Yogi starts his journey with the outlook -

 

" I am not body. Nothing is mine. I don't need anything "

 

He then with the help of inquiry and doubt keeps on feeling -

" neti " " neti " - not this , not this - and in the end when entire

world and the body by his enquiries get negated as not him, not for

him, different than him, he gets disconnected with the world.

Egolessness, desirelessness, non-attachment with family, isolation,

meditation (Dhyaan Yoga / Raaj Yoga) etc quite naturally become part

of his attitude. He then says " yes " only in respect of truth

(satsanga, Good Scriptures, Paramatma, that element which does not

change, and of course " SELF " ) ! ! What remains thereafter is SELF ,

which he considers as Paramatma. (Aham Brahmasmi- I am Brahma). He

becomes equal to Paramatma. He has nothing left to know now.

 

A Karma Yogi starts his spiritual journey with the outlook -

 

" I am Yogi. I am a servant and a debtor to the World.. I have to do

my duty. I don't have to do anything for myself. I have to serve the

world "

 

He thus honestly returns whatever he has got/gets from the world by

way of service/his duty, including his body.(By Karmas). He does

Karmas always for others, never for himself. Charity, unselfishness,

dutifulness, renunciation (tyaag) etc become part of his attitude.

His old debts get repaid and as he has not expected anything in

return, no new debts are incurred. Having become debt free, in the

end, he gets disconnected with the world- because his connection

with world was contractual arising out of Karmas done for " himself " .

In the end he gets established into Equanimity. He becomes nearest

to Paramatma (who is also Equanimous like him). He has nothing to do

now.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

 

--

, " sadhak_insight "

sadhak_insight wrote:

 

Jai Shri Krishna,

 

I agree with Sadhak Sathyanarainji. Knowledge comes later on.

 

" Knowledge " in fact in case of all 3 yogas comes as an end result

upon accomplishment of Yoga- and not before. " Knowledge " , in

spiritual and Gita terminology is not information, it is that

element after knowing which nothing remains to be known. It

satiates/extinguishes the very desire in you - " to know something "

You have known everthing.

 

It goes without saying that the moment doubt comes, the faith

extinguishes. The terms are 100 percent opposite to each other.

Just as darkness and Sun can't remain together- so is the case between faith and

doubt. If you have doubt, where is Faith? If you have faith , where is the

question of doubt? Both can't remain together.

 

It is also a fact that advent of knowledge about anything destroys

at that moment itself the faith pertaining to that thing- just as

advent of sun rays instantly destroys darkness . Where is the

question of faith when express knowledge is available? Therefore

the faith is always placed in respect of that thing about which

knowledge is not available.

 

Belief in fact is one of the only 3 powers which a human being has

got. It is not an ordinary thing. In fact Gita has allocated one

entire chapter on belief only!

Another thing to be kept in mind is that these ways have

thoroughly independent and vastly different means / methodologies/ processes. It

is like one starting journey towards west and another towards east.

Since the world is round they meet in the end !

 

A Bhakta starts his journey by changing his Aham ( Ego) from " I

am of the world. World is mine " to " I am of Paramatma. Only

Paramatma is mine. Nothing else is mine "

 

Now this is an established Truth. Irrespective of whether you have

faith or not, you are of Him, Only He is yours and nothing else is

yours. Now if you doubt this, established truth itself, where

will you reach? You will only drive your self towards false hood.

 

Therefore Swamiji told never mix doubt with faith. It will make

you impure ! !

 

Paramatma is beyond knowledge. A Jnana Yogi has nothing to do with

Paramatma at the start of his journey. His goal is SELF. Now in

that goal you must have doubt. Is body mine? Doubt. Answer- No! Is

world mine? Doubt. Answer -No! Is body me? Doubt. Answer-No! Do I

need anything for myself? Doubt. Answer-No.....and so on.

 

Now if you mix faith here, where will you reach? How will you

acquire knowledge, if you are acting on faith? A Jnana Yogi is

more sterner than a scientist in his attitude. He can't establish into SELF

otherwise.

 

Therefore Swamiji told never mix faith in doubt(means of acquiring

knowledge). It will make your life impure.

 

Narayana Narayana

 

Rajendra J Bohra

 

> , " sadhak_insight "

> <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> >

> > Hari Om

> >

> > Example given by Sadhak Manmohanji may not be applicable in this

> > case. In Bhakti the belief never gets broken - because it is

about

> > established truth - " I am of the God and only God is mine " . In

> > Bhakti, an aspirant never has to find a dead end and he can

never

> > return wondering if he needs help of knowledeable person to

> > supplement. Bhakti Yoga is path in itself. Here the Laws made by

> > Lord Himself ensure that there are no obstacles on the path.

Refer

> > Gita 9:22- here Lord declares , " yogakshemam vahamyaham " which

> > means " I shall make available whatever is necessary for

aspirant

> to

> > accomplish his yoga " . Infallible laws start operating with your

> > reference, as soon as, you take path of devotion. Another law

> which

> > becomes operational is stated in Gita 7:21. Here Krishna takes

> > responsibilty of " strengthening the belief " of the believer.

Your

> > belief will keep on strengthening.

> >

> > There was a shortage of conviction and belief in the person

> > returning after seeing dead end. THERE WAS AN ELEMENT OF DOUBT

IN

> > HIM. He in fact had already mixed doubt in his belief when he

set

> > out and when he returned. Unfortunately in his case the belief

was

> > not exactly the same as was the established truth (which is the

> > case with Bhakta) and there was nobody who took responsibilty as

> it

> > is in case of Bhakta under Gita 9:22.

> >

> > Since he mixed doubt in his belief, therefore he has now become

> > dependent on knowledge. Otherwise when he started his journey,

he

> > was all alone. So impurity has come in his path.

> >

> > The person having map with complete instructions, topography of

> the

> > mountain, complete grasp of the path and comprehensive overview

of

> > the obstacles did not have confidence in his knowledge. He might

> > have mixed some beliefs already in his knowledge when he firmed

up

> > the topography, map, instructions, overview etc.- Which only can

> > result in his lack of confidence. He is in difficulty now. His

> life

> > has become impure. He now is dependent upon faith. He is not

sure

> > whether he will reach to the top. Otherwise when he started

making

> > maps etc. he was all alone. Need was only of the knowledge

> acquired

> > by method of " doubting " .

> >

> > Such a situation does not arise in case of Bhakti Yogi at least -

 

> > for the reasons stated above.. Moreover Karma Yoga (KY), Jnana

> Yoga

> > (JY) and Bhakti Yoga ( BY) are independent paths, complete in

> > themselves.

> >

> > But in the end they give same results by and large. In case of

> > Bhakti however an aspirant gets Love of God additionally.

> Otherwise

> > all three get you -

> >

> > (i) Early accomplishment ( ref for KY Gita 5:6, for JY 4:39,

for

> > BY 12:7),

> > (ii) Destruction of sins( KY 4:23, JY4:36/37 BY 18:66)

> > (iii) Contentment (KY 2:55,3:17, JY 6:20, BY 10:9,12:14)

> > (iv) Peace ( KY 2:71,5:12, JY 4:39, BY 6:15,9:31)

> > (v) Equanimity ( KY 4:22, JY6:29, 14:24 BY 10:10)

> > (vi) Knowledge ( KY 4:38, JY 13:34,BY 10:11) and

> > (vii) Purification of inner sense/bliss and pleasure (KY 2:64,JY

> > 18:54 , BY 6:14) etc.

> >

> > However many learned sadhaks have quite rightly felt that there

> may

> > be a need of taking simultaneous paths also. I do not see any

> thing

> > wrong with the same except what Swamiji has stated re: mixing of

> > belief in doubt, and of doubt in belief. That does create

> > difficulties in pursuing the JY with BY.

> >

> > In fact in Gita also, at many places, in case of certain

> > qualities / features overlapping has been noticed among these 3

> > yogas ..

> >

> > In KY, for example - Gita 2:61/3:30/5:10 are basically from BY

and

> > 5:7 is quality of JY. Similarly in JY - Gita 5:24/12:4 quality

of

> > engagement in welfare of all creatures is from KY and features

> > stated in 13:10/14:26 are from BY.

> > In BY - Gita 12:11/18:46 qualities are of KY and 15:5/7:29 some

> > qualities stated in them are from JY.

> >

> > Hope this clarifies the queries fully.

> >

> > Jai Shree Krishna

> >

> > Vyas N B

> >

> > -------------------------------

> > Dear Sadak,

> > Path of pure devotion in sorrow or happiness leads to path of

> > knowledge.

> > Example: Ramana Rishi was teenage without much education.

Devotion

> > gave abundant knowledge. He could quote any thing from 108

> > Upanashids.

> > Recently Valalar near Chennai wrote wonderful scripts. He was

much

> > educated. Valmiki was a thief. Only Ram Nam gave knowledge to

> write

> > Srimath Ramayan.

> > B.Sathyanarayan

> > --------------------------------

> > Bhakti Marg, Gyana Marg, Yoga Marg or Karma Marg - they can all

> > jointly or severally lead to our Creator. What is to be avoided

in

> > all these paths is Adharma (unrighteousness). 'Rah pakad tu ek

> > chalachal, pa jaiga Madhushala'

> > Please notice, M of Madhushala is capital.

> >

> > Dr. Jagdish Shama

> >

> >

> > -------------------------------

> >

> >

> >

> > , " sadhak_insight "

> > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Imagine two persons standing at the foot of a hill who want to

> go

> > to

> > > a Shiva temple, which is at the peak of the mountain. One has

a

> > map

> > > with complete instructions and the topography of the mountain.

> He

> > > studies the map over and over and has complete grasp of the

path

> > and

> > > the obstacles he is going to face on his journey. But he does

> not

> > > have the faith in himself if he can climb the mountain. All

type

> > of

> > > doubts come in his mind and he stays at the foot of the temple

> > > thinking if should start or not, if he will be able to make it

> to

> > > the top or not.

> > >

> > > The other has complete faith in himself and is ready to start

> and

> > is

> > > sure to reach the top, but has no directions. He travels few

> > hundred

> > > yards and sees a dead end and comes back. He is at loss and

can

> > not

> > > judge as which path is the right for him

> > >

> > > Then both of them talk to each other and with the faith and

> > > encouragement of the one and knowledge of the other , both

> reach

> > > the summit.

> > >

> > > When they were at the summit, the only thing, which mattered,

> was

> > > that both were in the temple of God and were immersed in His

> > bliss.

> > >

> > > It is not correct to separate these paths, as both are

essential

> > for

> > > the ultimate goal.

> > >

> > > Also the second reason why they should be practiced together

is

> > that

> > > one path acts as an antidote for the weakness of the other

> path .

> > > Practicing the path of knowledge has tendency to enhance the

> ego,

> > so

> > > the path of faith, which teaches submission, counters it.

> > Similarly

> > > path of faith has a tendency to create blind faith, and path

of

> > > knowledge helps it to stay on the right course.

> > > Although various great teachers like Shankra, Chaitanya (or

> > > Prabhupad) , and B G Tilak have interpreted Gita to suite

their

> > > thinking and say Gita is nothing but Gian yoga, or Bhakti yoga

> or

> > > Karam yoga , Lord Krishna has emphasized to pursue all the

paths

> > to

> > > keep it in balance.

> > > When one has achieved the goal and has merged in Him, all

these

> > > variations disappear.

> > >

> > > Manmohan Sehgal

> > > ------------------------------

--

> --

> > >

> > > Dear Sadaks,

> > > This combing does not come to one`s intellect if one has not

> made

> > > sufficient practice on spritual life in earlier birth. We can

> see

> > > many people next to us does not care even to listen devotional

> > songs

> > > when we play. This body equipment is result of our earlier

> karmas

> > > and desires. So if one has sincerly attempted spritual path

and

> > lead

> > > divine life in his previous birth he automatically gets desire

> to

> > > continue in this birth. Many of us know what is Vasana. Vasana

> can

> > > be divine or worldly. Earlier birth vasana be divine then it

> > > contiues in present birth. This is combing.

> > > Buddha did combing as to why aging, death, disease etc. HIS

> > brother

> > > in law Devadatha was with Buddha for 13 years. But just before

> > > Buddha life to end Devadatha was claiming Buddha position. How

> > many

> > > of us question ourselves, " My end is going to be the same as

> that

> > > of a minister or begger- same cremation/burial- what happens

> next-

> > > am I not wasting time seeing things around me and not

forsaking

> > > attachment " . This comes in mind to us like a flash, then back

to

> > > world. Only Adi Sanakara, Buddha, Puranderdas, Tukaram,

Thirupan

> > > Alwar can think. Body is the same composition for all. It is

> > > previous strong Vasana/Desire in divinity that contiues.

> > > B.Sathyanarayan

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > ------------------------------

--

> --

> > >

> > > , " sadhak_insight "

> > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Hari Om

> > > >

> > > > Here the meaning is to state that Bhakti and Jnana Yoga are

> > > > independent paths. In jnana yoga the doubt is essence in

your

> > > quest.

> > > > Because there is curiosity in your mind for search of the

> truth.

> > > > That curiosity in fact later on leads you to the truth. Once

> > your

> > > > quest is over, and you realise the truth then you naturally

> > start

> > > > believing. But in Bhakti Yoga , the very doubt is not

> > acceptable.

> > > > You have to have total belief. Because there the devotee

> starts

> > > with

> > > > a mind set that his belief is truthful and in reality that

> is

> > > > truth only. In fact both Jnana Yoga and Karma Yoga are " of

> this

> > > > world " pursuits - they are in relation to the world and

hence

> > they

> > > > are called " laukik " . In these two, disconnection with world

> > > becomes

> > > > the result in the end. What remains there after is eternal

> > > > connection with Paramatma only. Even otherwise the

Paramatma

> is

> > > > connected with you..Bhakti Yoga is " alaukik " – " out of this

> > > world, "

> > > > divine path. Here you start with reality itself, that is

> > > connection

> > > > with Paramatma. Then the disconnection with the world

becomes

> > > > automatic.. Even otherwise the world is disconnecting with

> you!

> > > >

> > > > If you are curious, then blind faith makes you " impure "

(not

> > > > impious)- ashuddha. Doubt is in essence, there. Because

> > otherwise

> > > > you get into a dilemma. Similarly, when you have chosen

path

> of

> > > > devotion, then any doubt makes your sadhna (striving)

impure.

> > > There

> > > > is no place for doubt in Bhakti Yoga. Belief is essence

there.

> > Any

> > > > way , here the hindi word used was " asuddha " (impure,

> > adulterated,

> > > > not exactly precise, confusing) and it does not mean "

> apavitra "

> > > > (impious, sinful). If your goal is Paramatma or quest for

> truth

> > > you

> > > > never become impious. In the process adopted by you an

> impurity,

> > > an

> > > > inappropriateness, an imperfection comes, if you mix doubt

in

> > > belief

> > > > or belief in curiosity.

> > > >

> > > > Jai Shree Krishna

> > > >

> > > > Vyas N B

> > > >

> > > > ----------------------------

--

> --

> > -

> > >

> > > > Loving Divine,

> > > > Pranam.

> > > > I agree that we are a mixture of bhakti (devotion), gyaan

> > > > (knowledge), karma (right action), dhyaan (yoga-

meditation).

> > > > Usually that's how we start. We have doubts, questions to

be

> > > > clarified, etc. so we use gyaan yoga. But what Swamiji is

> > saying

> > > > when one is truly surrendered, no doubt/question arises in

> > > devotee's

> > > > mind because true devotee is completely dependent on God and

> the

> > > > attitude is whatever God does, He knows what is best for me

so

> > > there

> > > > is no question or doubt or objection or desire to change the

> > > > situation arising in him/her. This is a true state of

> bhakti.

> > > But

> > > > if you have questions or doubts need to be resolved, if you

> > think

> > > > why me God, or if you pray to change the present situation

or

> > > > object, it is not true bhakti because you have not

surrendered

> > > > completely yet to God and finding answers require enquiry,

so

> it

> > > is

> > > > gyaan yoga. When one is questioning, objection, enquiring,

> one

> > is

> > > > not truly surrendered and when one is all stops! Do you see

> the

> > > > subtle difference between them? When we start, we are like

> baby

> > > > monkey - I am holding on to my Mother (Divine) while She

jumps

> > > from

> > > > one place to other. We trust Her but still it is I who is

> > holding

> > > > on - the subtle ego remains. In the other case - bhakta, on

> the

> > > > contrary is a person like a kitten. Where ever my Mother

> takes

> > me

> > > > She is the one who has to carry me and I am always happy in

> > where

> > > > ever she takes me.

> > > >

> > > > Hope this helps...

> > > > humble regards,

> > > > always at Thy Divine Feet

> > > >

> > > > Manjula Patel

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > ----------------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > -

> > > > , " sadhak_insight "

> > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > Dear Sadhak,

> > > > > Bhakti (companionship, togetherness of those in similar

inner

> > > > > feeling or swabhaav) and Jnana (awareness of the current

> > > position

> > > > of

> > > > > one's inner nature or swabhaav) and Karma (activity of

> > > correction

> > > > or

> > > > > improvement in the inner and innate nature or swbhaav) can

> > lead

> > > to

> > > > > Yoga (truth). This paradigm of Bhakti yoga, Jnana yoga and

> > Karma

> > > > > yoga are terms of critical understanding of the Bhagwat

Gita

> > > > > techniques.

> > > > >

> > > > > If one is going from Delhi to Mumbai, the path or railway

> > route

> > > is

> > > > > equivalent of Dharma, but different milestones specifying

> > > location

> > > > > of inner nature, characteristics, temperament (swabhaav)

> > across

> > > the

> > > > > journey. Bhakti is companionship or right train which if

> > > correctly

> > > > > decided, will take one to Mumbai whether or not one is

aware

> of

> > > > > various locations and limited activity. Thus, bhakti can

be

> a

> > > short

> > > > > cut of jnana and karma. In another way, a man can go from

> > Delhi

> > > to

> > > > > Mumbai alone, and is full of activity, and discovers the

> > Mumbai.

> > > > > Here, bhakti is not feasible but, jnana and karma are

> together

> > is

> > > > > success.

> > > > >

> > > > > Swabhaav (inner nature, characteristics) is transformed in

a

> > > step

> > > > by

> > > > > step process, and this is purpose of activity and

> awareness.

> > > > Bhakti is simpler way and one can avoid tapah (austerities)

> > which

> > > > the discoverer like Krishna, Buddha had toiled. It is very

> much

> > > like

> > > > any other set of subjects, like Physics, high school student

> > knows

> > > > the ideas of Newton without spending lifetime, and this

> > > facilitation

> > > > is Bhakti.

> > > > >

> > > > > Bhagwat Gita is knowledge of transformation of ones'

> swabhaav

> > > > (inner nature and tendencies). Whatever be the starting

> point;

> > by

> > > > continued practice, awareness and companionship of right

kind,

> > > goal

> > > > is achieved sooner than later.

> > > > > Best regards

> > > > > K G Misra

> > > > > (Krishna Gopal)

> > > > > --------------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > --

> > > > > Priy Sadhaka,

> > > > > As far as I perceived from Swamiji, Knowledge is received

by

> > > Buddhi

> > > > > (intellect) which is part of JADA Prakruti (Limited, Inert

> > > Nature).

> > > > > It can not know limitlessness. Therefore on the path of

> > > knowledge,

> > > > we feel incomplete (rather a very subtle form of ego

remains).

> > > > >

> > > > > In MANAS Goswamiji wrote in Uttarkand that One who is

> > intelligent

> > > > > follows the path of devotion. Swamiji also wrote in Sadhak

> > > > > Sanjivani : Even after getting absolute knowledge, one

still

> > > longs

> > > > for love of God, whereas devotee from the very beginning

> (first

> > > > step) develops love and relationship with God. So the

devotee

> > is

> > > > considered to be a Gyani (intelligent). Bhagwan Sri Krishna

> also

> > > > told in Geetaji : Gyani (Premi) Bhakt is my most beloved.

> > > > >

> > > > > Hope this helps,

> > > > > Thanks,

> > > > > Raja

> > > > > (Raja Gurdasani)

> > > > >

> > > > > --------------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > > > Namaste.

> > > > >

> > > > > Vivekanand said: Science without faith is dangerous, Faith

> > > without

> > > > science is blind.

> > > > >

> > > > > Based on Geetaji...

> > > > >

> > > > > Faith (Bhakti) without Knowledge is blind.

> > > > >

> > > > > Knowledge (Gyan) without Faith in God is only

superficial /

> > > > material.

> > > > >

> > > > > We need both for spiritual progress (Ego to Atma) like two

> > > wheels

> > > > of a bicycle:

> > > > >

> > > > > Faith (Buddhi) to guide us in the right direction towards

> God

> > > > (front wheel).

> > > > >

> > > > > Knowledge (Mind) to understand the nature of God (back

> wheel).

> > > > >

> > > > > Additionally Karmayog provides the energy to ride and

> Dhyanyog

> > > to

> > > > keep us straight.

> > > > >

> > > > > Our Guruji once said these four Yog are like the four legs

> of

> > a

> > > > chair to sit on for each of us.

> > > > >

> > > > > Maybe these are like the four wheels of a car (kar) to

move

> us

> > > > from Ahamkar to Omkar.

> > > > >

> > > > > Hope this clarifies the points raised in this discussion.

> > > > >

> > > > > Dr BalMukund Bhala

> > > > >

> > > > > --------------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > -

> > > > > , " sadhak_insight "

> > > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Clarification Sadhaka Message July 17th, Thursday

> > > > > >

> > > > > > By combining faith (path of devotion) and inquiry (path

of

> > > > > > knowledge) - sadhaka's life does not remain pure, it

> becomes

> > > > > impure?

> > > > > > Does this imply that a sadhaka cannot follow the path of

> > > devotion

> > > > > > and path of knowledge at the same time? Why should it

make

> > his

> > > > > life

> > > > > > impure? Are these paths exclusive of each other? Please

> > > clarify.

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Subhash Madan

> > > > > > Ram Ram

> > > > > >

> > > > > > :Shree Hari:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > 17th July, 2008, Thursday

> > > > > > Aashaad Shukla Chaturdashi, Vikram Samvat 2065, Guruvar

> > > > > >

> > > > > > We never looks to ourselves, as to why we were born?

what

> do

> > we

> > > > > > want? and what are we doing? As long as we are not

> attentive

> > to

> > > > > > these things, till that time, our position (please

forgive

> > me

> > > for

> > > > > > saying this), is lower than that of animals ! Our life

is

> > lower

> > > > > > than that of animals, birds, trees etc. After being born

a

> > man,

> > > > > > there is not that alertness, that inquiry as to whether

we

> > are

> > > > > > really men? A man must have the alertness, and a quest

to

> > > know -

> > > > > > why was I born? What should I do? and what should I not

do?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > If this understanding does not come on it's own, then so

> be

> > > it.

> > > > But

> > > > > > from the messages of the saints and scriptures, one can

> > > > understand

> > > > > > completely, that human birth is attained only for one's

> > > > liberation.

> > > > > > From God's side, He has already given this as the last

> birth,

> > > > > > through which He can be realized.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Brahmaji through various sacrifices (yagna) he manifests

> > > > > > creation " sahyagyaah prajaah srhtavaapuraovaach

> > prajaapatih, "

> > > > (Gita

> > > > > > 3:10). In other words, duty and the doer - they both

> > > manifested

> > > > at

> > > > > > the same time. That which is " duty " is " innate " . Today,

the

> > > > > > difficulty and effort we experience in doing our duty,

is

> > due

> > > to

> > > > > > developing an affinity with the world. By it self the

doer

> > is

> > > > also

> > > > > > innate, and the duties are also innate and natural. Man

> > himself

> > > > > > makes them unnatural. The thought does not arise in him,

> > that

> > > why

> > > > > > did he create this unnaturalness ? How did he do that?

If

> he

> > > > > > inquires into this then benefits are certain !

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Now I will share with you one thing. There are two

paths -

> > one

> > > > the

> > > > > > path of vishwaas (faith and belief) and another the path

of

> > > > > jigyaasa

> > > > > > (quest for knowledge). Faith and belief is in that which

> one

> > > has

> > > > no

> > > > > > doubt at all, where there is not even the slightest

> > > possibility

> > > > of

> > > > > a

> > > > > > doubt arising. That faith that is free of all doubts,

does

> > not

> > > > > > arise in the form of belief and faith from the onset.

> Rather

> > > > > > inquiry is on those things where there is some element

of

> > > doubt.

> > > > In

> > > > > > Path of Devotion (bhakti maarg), faith and belief that

is

> > free

> > > of

> > > > > > all doubts is primary and in the path of jnana

(knowledge,

> > > > inquiry

> > > > > > into the Truth) some doubt / uncertainty is paramount.

By

> > > > combining

> > > > > > faith and inquiry - a sadhak's (spiritual aspirant's)

life

> > > does

> > > > not

> > > > > > remain pure, it becomes impure.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > In what do we have faith? In that which we have no

> knowledge

> > of

> > > > > > with our sense organs and inner faculties, we may or may

> not

> > > have

> > > > > > faith in that. There are only two points - either you

have

> > > faith,

> > > > > > or you don't have faith. Whether God exists or not, this

> > point

> > > is

> > > > > > not one of belief, it is one of an inquiring seeker. (to

be

> > > > > > continued)

> > > > > >

> > > > > > From " Saadhan, Sudhaa, Sindhu " in Hindi pg. 706 by Swami

> > > > > > Ramsukhdasji.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Ram Ram

> > > > > >

> > > > > > GUIDELINES FOR POSTING A RESPONSE:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > 1. The group is focused on the Holy Gitaji, therefore,

only

> > > > > > responses which further clarify the understanding of

> Gitaji,

> > > will

> > > > > be

> > > > > > posted.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > 2. Making reference of Gitaji shloka is highly

encouraged -

>

> > at

> > > > > least

> > > > > > once in the response. Wherever possible, please quote

> > Gitaji

> > > or

> > > > > > other scriptures to substantiate your response.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > 3. Please be as concise and to the point as possible,

> > > respecting

> > > > > > sadhaka's time. Under no circustance the answer should

> > exceed

> > > say

> > > > > > one page at the most (500 words or so).

> > > > > >

> > > > > > 4. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs

etc.

> to

> > > the

> > > > > > extent that they further help in understanding the Gita

> > shlokas

> > > > > >

> > > > > > 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or

other

> > > > > > organizations.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > 7. Complete reproduction of texts from any book is

strongly

> > > > > > discouraged, however references may be made of the book

> or

> > > > author

> > > > > > (but not links to other sites).

> > > > > >

> > > > > > 8. Kindly do not include your personal information such

as

> > > phone

> > > > > > number, address etc.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > 9. Please do not address the response to a particular

> > > individual

> > > > > > since the message is going to the entire group.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > 10. Due to the large readership, only those responses

will

> be

> > > > > posted

> > > > > > which are in line with the general philosophy of taking

> > Shrimad

> > > > > > Bhagavad Gita as the reference.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > 11. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting,

if

> > > > > content

> > > > > > is unclear for distribution or not directly related to

the

> > > > > question

> > > > > > being asked.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > 12. Please respond taking into consideration the

novices,

> > > youth,

> > > > > > westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use

> of

> > > only

> > > > > > Sanskrit words, rather provide the English word with

> Sanskrit

> > > > > > bracketed wherever possible.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > MODERATOR

> > > > > > Ram Ram

>

[Guest guest]

Namaste,

 

There are a couple of verses in the Bhagvad Gita in Chapter VII - 16

and 17, which begin with " Chaturvidha Bhajante Maam " ... etc.

 

Essentially these two verses say " There are 4 types of Bhaktas - The

one who is in distress (some pain or trouble), The one who is

seeking after material success (wealth, power etc.), The one who is

seeking after God Knowledge and the one who already knows (Jnani).

Of these 4 types of Bhaktas, The Jnani (The wise one), who is in

ever constant union with the divine, whose devotion is single

minded, is the bext of them all. I am supremely dear to him, and he

is supremely dear to Me.

 

The inter-connection between Jnana and Bhakti, is being irrevocably

established by Shri Krishna himself, it seems to me in these two

verses. I wonder how you would reconcile these verses with the view

that Bhakta and Jnana are entirely separate paths etc ?

 

Kalyan Viswanathan

 

-

Dear Sadak,

Path of Devotion is you- Path of knwledge is your shadow. As long as

you think shadow and you are differant than confusion.

B.Sathyanarayan

 

 

 

 

 

, " sadhak_insight "

<sadhak_insight wrote:

>

> Shree Hari

> Ram Ram

>

> After reading the responses below, if there are no further

doubts , regarding the question posed by Subhashji, we bring this

question to a closure to pursue a new topic for discussion.

> From Gita Talk Moderator

> Ram Ram

>

>

> Subhashji's Question:

> Regarding combining faith (path of devotion) and inquiry (path of

knowledge) - sadhaka's life does not remain pure, it becomes

> impure? Does this imply that a sadhaka cannot follow the path of

> devotion and path of knowledge at the same time? Why should it

> make his life impure? Are these paths exclusive of each other?

Please

> clarify.

> Subhash Madan

>

> ------------------------------

> -Shree Hari-

> I found Rajendra J Bohra comments most interesting.

>

> I often thought how did this journey start?(In my case that is).

> Something like this; Does what I am being taught of spiritual

matters

> hold up to deep thought NO!

> Do I feel that these 'Holy' texts agree NO!

> Do I have blind faith No!

> Am I afraid to stand alone NO!

> Does science have all the answers, in fact does science agree NO!

> This process , goes on for decades .

> Then a change starts to occur sometimes mixed with NO responses.

> Something like this; OK if science stumbles over the source of

> existence, then where are the answers?

> Right let me see now, if at the very deepest quantum level all

> matter is energy vibration, and some scientist believe all

existence

> comes in and out of reality at a high frequency, does any religion

> deal with such things.

> Many more questions of course, but then my head started to look

> towards 'Eastern Wisdom'.

> Because it seemed to deal with the things I had experienced, the

> things I had learned and unlearned.

> And now to the Bhagavad Gita. Does it vibrate with truth and the

> Sacred YES!

>

> With Respect and Divine Love

>

> Mike

> (Mike Keenor)

> -

-

> Hari Om

>

> I fully agree with Sadhak Rajendraji.

>

> Every Yoga ultimately drives the aspirant towards - " disconnection

> with the world " . As soon as disconnection takes place , eternal

> connection with Paramatma comes into realisation, into

experience !!

>

> That is why Paramatma is always " realised/attained " not " got " . You

> remember/recollect your an already existing eternal connection

> with Paramatma (smartir labdha- I have now remembered/recollected-

> Gita 18 :73 - last words of Arjuna)

>

> A Bhakta starts his spiritual journey with the outlook-

>

> " I am of the Paramatma. He only is mine and nothing else is mine. "

>

> He surrenders and/or does every action only in relation with

> Paramatma, gets wholly dependent on Him and very soon starts

> realising that all others around him are as good of Paramatma as is

> he himself. Then the world disappears for him. He sees Paramatma

> everywhere. Friendliness and compassion enter his attitude

> naturally. He in the end " attains " (realises) love of Paramatma.

He

> becomes " indivisible " with Him. He has nothing to attain (realise)

> now.

>

> A Jnana Yogi starts his journey with the outlook -

>

> " I am not body. Nothing is mine. I don't need anything "

>

> He then with the help of inquiry and doubt keeps on feeling -

> " neti " " neti " - not this , not this - and in the end when entire

> world and the body by his enquiries get negated as not him, not for

> him, different than him, he gets disconnected with the world.

> Egolessness, desirelessness, non-attachment with family, isolation,

> meditation (Dhyaan Yoga / Raaj Yoga) etc quite naturally become

part

> of his attitude. He then says " yes " only in respect of truth

> (satsanga, Good Scriptures, Paramatma, that element which does not

> change, and of course " SELF " ) ! ! What remains thereafter is

SELF ,

> which he considers as Paramatma. (Aham Brahmasmi- I am Brahma). He

> becomes equal to Paramatma. He has nothing left to know now.

>

> A Karma Yogi starts his spiritual journey with the outlook -

>

> " I am Yogi. I am a servant and a debtor to the World.. I have to do

> my duty. I don't have to do anything for myself. I have to serve

the

> world "

>

> He thus honestly returns whatever he has got/gets from the world by

> way of service/his duty, including his body.(By Karmas). He does

> Karmas always for others, never for himself. Charity,

unselfishness,

> dutifulness, renunciation (tyaag) etc become part of his attitude.

> His old debts get repaid and as he has not expected anything in

> return, no new debts are incurred. Having become debt free, in the

> end, he gets disconnected with the world- because his connection

> with world was contractual arising out of Karmas done

for " himself " .

> In the end he gets established into Equanimity. He becomes nearest

> to Paramatma (who is also Equanimous like him). He has nothing to

do

> now.

>

> Jai Shree Krishna

>

> Vyas N B

>

> -

-

> , " sadhak_insight "

> sadhak_insight@> wrote:

>

> Jai Shri Krishna,

>

> I agree with Sadhak Sathyanarainji. Knowledge comes later on.

>

> " Knowledge " in fact in case of all 3 yogas comes as an end result

> upon accomplishment of Yoga- and not before. " Knowledge " , in

> spiritual and Gita terminology is not information, it is that

> element after knowing which nothing remains to be known. It

> satiates/extinguishes the very desire in you - " to know something "

> You have known everthing.

>

> It goes without saying that the moment doubt comes, the faith

> extinguishes. The terms are 100 percent opposite to each other.

> Just as darkness and Sun can't remain together- so is the case

between faith and doubt. If you have doubt, where is Faith? If you

have faith , where is the question of doubt? Both can't remain

together.

>

> It is also a fact that advent of knowledge about anything destroys

> at that moment itself the faith pertaining to that thing- just as

> advent of sun rays instantly destroys darkness . Where is the

> question of faith when express knowledge is available? Therefore

> the faith is always placed in respect of that thing about which

> knowledge is not available.

>

> Belief in fact is one of the only 3 powers which a human being has

> got. It is not an ordinary thing. In fact Gita has allocated one

> entire chapter on belief only!

> Another thing to be kept in mind is that these ways have

> thoroughly independent and vastly different means / methodologies/

processes. It is like one starting journey towards west and another

towards east.

> Since the world is round they meet in the end !

>

> A Bhakta starts his journey by changing his Aham ( Ego) from " I

> am of the world. World is mine " to " I am of Paramatma. Only

> Paramatma is mine. Nothing else is mine "

>

> Now this is an established Truth. Irrespective of whether you have

> faith or not, you are of Him, Only He is yours and nothing else is

> yours. Now if you doubt this, established truth itself, where

> will you reach? You will only drive your self towards false hood.

>

> Therefore Swamiji told never mix doubt with faith. It will make

> you impure ! !

>

> Paramatma is beyond knowledge. A Jnana Yogi has nothing to do with

> Paramatma at the start of his journey. His goal is SELF. Now in

> that goal you must have doubt. Is body mine? Doubt. Answer- No! Is

> world mine? Doubt. Answer -No! Is body me? Doubt. Answer-No! Do I

> need anything for myself? Doubt. Answer-No.....and so on.

>

> Now if you mix faith here, where will you reach? How will you

> acquire knowledge, if you are acting on faith? A Jnana Yogi is

> more sterner than a scientist in his attitude. He can't establish

into SELF otherwise.

>

> Therefore Swamiji told never mix faith in doubt(means of acquiring

> knowledge). It will make your life impure.

>

> Narayana Narayana

>

> Rajendra J Bohra

>

>

> > , " sadhak_insight "

> > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Hari Om

> > >

> > > Example given by Sadhak Manmohanji may not be applicable in

this

> > > case. In Bhakti the belief never gets broken - because it is

> about

> > > established truth - " I am of the God and only God is mine " . In

> > > Bhakti, an aspirant never has to find a dead end and he can

> never

> > > return wondering if he needs help of knowledeable person to

> > > supplement. Bhakti Yoga is path in itself. Here the Laws made

by

> > > Lord Himself ensure that there are no obstacles on the path.

> Refer

> > > Gita 9:22- here Lord declares , " yogakshemam vahamyaham " which

> > > means " I shall make available whatever is necessary for

> aspirant

> > to

> > > accomplish his yoga " . Infallible laws start operating with your

> > > reference, as soon as, you take path of devotion. Another law

> > which

> > > becomes operational is stated in Gita 7:21. Here Krishna takes

> > > responsibilty of " strengthening the belief " of the believer.

> Your

> > > belief will keep on strengthening.

> > >

> > > There was a shortage of conviction and belief in the person

> > > returning after seeing dead end. THERE WAS AN ELEMENT OF DOUBT

> IN

> > > HIM. He in fact had already mixed doubt in his belief when he

> set

> > > out and when he returned. Unfortunately in his case the belief

> was

> > > not exactly the same as was the established truth (which is

the

> > > case with Bhakta) and there was nobody who took responsibilty

as

> > it

> > > is in case of Bhakta under Gita 9:22.

> > >

> > > Since he mixed doubt in his belief, therefore he has now become

> > > dependent on knowledge. Otherwise when he started his journey,

> he

> > > was all alone. So impurity has come in his path.

> > >

> > > The person having map with complete instructions, topography of

> > the

> > > mountain, complete grasp of the path and comprehensive overview

> of

> > > the obstacles did not have confidence in his knowledge. He

might

> > > have mixed some beliefs already in his knowledge when he firmed

> up

> > > the topography, map, instructions, overview etc.- Which only

can

> > > result in his lack of confidence. He is in difficulty now. His

> > life

> > > has become impure. He now is dependent upon faith. He is not

> sure

> > > whether he will reach to the top. Otherwise when he started

> making

> > > maps etc. he was all alone. Need was only of the knowledge

> > acquired

> > > by method of " doubting " .

> > >

> > > Such a situation does not arise in case of Bhakti Yogi at

least -

>

> > > for the reasons stated above.. Moreover Karma Yoga (KY), Jnana

> > Yoga

> > > (JY) and Bhakti Yoga ( BY) are independent paths, complete in

> > > themselves.

> > >

> > > But in the end they give same results by and large. In case of

> > > Bhakti however an aspirant gets Love of God additionally.

> > Otherwise

> > > all three get you -

> > >

> > > (i) Early accomplishment ( ref for KY Gita 5:6, for JY 4:39,

> for

> > > BY 12:7),

> > > (ii) Destruction of sins( KY 4:23, JY4:36/37 BY 18:66)

> > > (iii) Contentment (KY 2:55,3:17, JY 6:20, BY 10:9,12:14)

> > > (iv) Peace ( KY 2:71,5:12, JY 4:39, BY 6:15,9:31)

> > > (v) Equanimity ( KY 4:22, JY6:29, 14:24 BY 10:10)

> > > (vi) Knowledge ( KY 4:38, JY 13:34,BY 10:11) and

> > > (vii) Purification of inner sense/bliss and pleasure (KY

2:64,JY

> > > 18:54 , BY 6:14) etc.

> > >

> > > However many learned sadhaks have quite rightly felt that there

> > may

> > > be a need of taking simultaneous paths also. I do not see any

> > thing

> > > wrong with the same except what Swamiji has stated re: mixing

of

> > > belief in doubt, and of doubt in belief. That does create

> > > difficulties in pursuing the JY with BY.

> > >

> > > In fact in Gita also, at many places, in case of certain

> > > qualities / features overlapping has been noticed among these 3

> > > yogas ..

> > >

> > > In KY, for example - Gita 2:61/3:30/5:10 are basically from BY

> and

> > > 5:7 is quality of JY. Similarly in JY - Gita 5:24/12:4 quality

> of

> > > engagement in welfare of all creatures is from KY and features

> > > stated in 13:10/14:26 are from BY.

> > > In BY - Gita 12:11/18:46 qualities are of KY and 15:5/7:29 some

> > > qualities stated in them are from JY.

> > >

> > > Hope this clarifies the queries fully.

> > >

> > > Jai Shree Krishna

> > >

> > > Vyas N B

> > >

> > > ------------------------------

-

> > > Dear Sadak,

> > > Path of pure devotion in sorrow or happiness leads to path of

> > > knowledge.

> > > Example: Ramana Rishi was teenage without much education.

> Devotion

> > > gave abundant knowledge. He could quote any thing from 108

> > > Upanashids.

> > > Recently Valalar near Chennai wrote wonderful scripts. He was

> much

> > > educated. Valmiki was a thief. Only Ram Nam gave knowledge to

> > write

> > > Srimath Ramayan.

> > > B.Sathyanarayan

> > > ------------------------------

--

> > > Bhakti Marg, Gyana Marg, Yoga Marg or Karma Marg - they can all

> > > jointly or severally lead to our Creator. What is to be avoided

> in

> > > all these paths is Adharma (unrighteousness). 'Rah pakad tu ek

> > > chalachal, pa jaiga Madhushala'

> > > Please notice, M of Madhushala is capital.

> > >

> > > Dr. Jagdish Shama

> > >

> > >

> > > ------------------------------

-

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > , " sadhak_insight "

> > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Imagine two persons standing at the foot of a hill who want

to

> > go

> > > to

> > > > a Shiva temple, which is at the peak of the mountain. One has

> a

> > > map

> > > > with complete instructions and the topography of the

mountain.

> > He

> > > > studies the map over and over and has complete grasp of the

> path

> > > and

> > > > the obstacles he is going to face on his journey. But he does

> > not

> > > > have the faith in himself if he can climb the mountain. All

> type

> > > of

> > > > doubts come in his mind and he stays at the foot of the

temple

> > > > thinking if should start or not, if he will be able to make

it

> > to

> > > > the top or not.

> > > >

> > > > The other has complete faith in himself and is ready to start

> > and

> > > is

> > > > sure to reach the top, but has no directions. He travels few

> > > hundred

> > > > yards and sees a dead end and comes back. He is at loss and

> can

> > > not

> > > > judge as which path is the right for him

> > > >

> > > > Then both of them talk to each other and with the faith and

> > > > encouragement of the one and knowledge of the other , both

> > reach

> > > > the summit.

> > > >

> > > > When they were at the summit, the only thing, which mattered,

> > was

> > > > that both were in the temple of God and were immersed in His

> > > bliss.

> > > >

> > > > It is not correct to separate these paths, as both are

> essential

> > > for

> > > > the ultimate goal.

> > > >

> > > > Also the second reason why they should be practiced together

> is

> > > that

> > > > one path acts as an antidote for the weakness of the other

> > path .

> > > > Practicing the path of knowledge has tendency to enhance the

> > ego,

> > > so

> > > > the path of faith, which teaches submission, counters it.

> > > Similarly

> > > > path of faith has a tendency to create blind faith, and path

> of

> > > > knowledge helps it to stay on the right course.

> > > > Although various great teachers like Shankra, Chaitanya (or

> > > > Prabhupad) , and B G Tilak have interpreted Gita to suite

> their

> > > > thinking and say Gita is nothing but Gian yoga, or Bhakti

yoga

> > or

> > > > Karam yoga , Lord Krishna has emphasized to pursue all the

> paths

> > > to

> > > > keep it in balance.

> > > > When one has achieved the goal and has merged in Him, all

> these

> > > > variations disappear.

> > > >

> > > > Manmohan Sehgal

> > > > ----------------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > >

> > > > Dear Sadaks,

> > > > This combing does not come to one`s intellect if one has not

> > made

> > > > sufficient practice on spritual life in earlier birth. We can

> > see

> > > > many people next to us does not care even to listen

devotional

> > > songs

> > > > when we play. This body equipment is result of our earlier

> > karmas

> > > > and desires. So if one has sincerly attempted spritual path

> and

> > > lead

> > > > divine life in his previous birth he automatically gets

desire

> > to

> > > > continue in this birth. Many of us know what is Vasana.

Vasana

> > can

> > > > be divine or worldly. Earlier birth vasana be divine then it

> > > > contiues in present birth. This is combing.

> > > > Buddha did combing as to why aging, death, disease etc. HIS

> > > brother

> > > > in law Devadatha was with Buddha for 13 years. But just

before

> > > > Buddha life to end Devadatha was claiming Buddha position.

How

> > > many

> > > > of us question ourselves, " My end is going to be the same as

> > that

> > > > of a minister or begger- same cremation/burial- what happens

> > next-

> > > > am I not wasting time seeing things around me and not

> forsaking

> > > > attachment " . This comes in mind to us like a flash, then back

> to

> > > > world. Only Adi Sanakara, Buddha, Puranderdas, Tukaram,

> Thirupan

> > > > Alwar can think. Body is the same composition for all. It is

> > > > previous strong Vasana/Desire in divinity that contiues.

> > > > B.Sathyanarayan

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > ----------------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > >

> > > > , " sadhak_insight "

> > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > Hari Om

> > > > >

> > > > > Here the meaning is to state that Bhakti and Jnana Yoga are

> > > > > independent paths. In jnana yoga the doubt is essence in

> your

> > > > quest.

> > > > > Because there is curiosity in your mind for search of the

> > truth.

> > > > > That curiosity in fact later on leads you to the truth.

Once

> > > your

> > > > > quest is over, and you realise the truth then you

naturally

> > > start

> > > > > believing. But in Bhakti Yoga , the very doubt is not

> > > acceptable.

> > > > > You have to have total belief. Because there the devotee

> > starts

> > > > with

> > > > > a mind set that his belief is truthful and in reality

that

> > is

> > > > > truth only. In fact both Jnana Yoga and Karma Yoga are " of

> > this

> > > > > world " pursuits - they are in relation to the world and

> hence

> > > they

> > > > > are called " laukik " . In these two, disconnection with world

> > > > becomes

> > > > > the result in the end. What remains there after is eternal

> > > > > connection with Paramatma only. Even otherwise the

> Paramatma

> > is

> > > > > connected with you..Bhakti Yoga is " alaukik " – " out of this

> > > > world, "

> > > > > divine path. Here you start with reality itself, that is

> > > > connection

> > > > > with Paramatma. Then the disconnection with the world

> becomes

> > > > > automatic.. Even otherwise the world is disconnecting with

> > you!

> > > > >

> > > > > If you are curious, then blind faith makes you " impure "

> (not

> > > > > impious)- ashuddha. Doubt is in essence, there. Because

> > > otherwise

> > > > > you get into a dilemma. Similarly, when you have chosen

> path

> > of

> > > > > devotion, then any doubt makes your sadhna (striving)

> impure.

> > > > There

> > > > > is no place for doubt in Bhakti Yoga. Belief is essence

> there.

> > > Any

> > > > > way , here the hindi word used was " asuddha " (impure,

> > > adulterated,

> > > > > not exactly precise, confusing) and it does not mean "

> > apavitra "

> > > > > (impious, sinful). If your goal is Paramatma or quest for

> > truth

> > > > you

> > > > > never become impious. In the process adopted by you an

> > impurity,

> > > > an

> > > > > inappropriateness, an imperfection comes, if you mix doubt

> in

> > > > belief

> > > > > or belief in curiosity.

> > > > >

> > > > > Jai Shree Krishna

> > > > >

> > > > > Vyas N B

> > > > >

> > > > > --------------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > -

> > > >

> > > > > Loving Divine,

> > > > > Pranam.

> > > > > I agree that we are a mixture of bhakti (devotion), gyaan

> > > > > (knowledge), karma (right action), dhyaan (yoga-

> meditation).

> > > > > Usually that's how we start. We have doubts, questions to

> be

> > > > > clarified, etc. so we use gyaan yoga. But what Swamiji is

> > > saying

> > > > > when one is truly surrendered, no doubt/question arises in

> > > > devotee's

> > > > > mind because true devotee is completely dependent on God

and

> > the

> > > > > attitude is whatever God does, He knows what is best for me

> so

> > > > there

> > > > > is no question or doubt or objection or desire to change

the

> > > > > situation arising in him/her. This is a true state of

> > bhakti.

> > > > But

> > > > > if you have questions or doubts need to be resolved, if you

> > > think

> > > > > why me God, or if you pray to change the present situation

> or

> > > > > object, it is not true bhakti because you have not

> surrendered

> > > > > completely yet to God and finding answers require enquiry,

> so

> > it

> > > > is

> > > > > gyaan yoga. When one is questioning, objection, enquiring,

> > one

> > > is

> > > > > not truly surrendered and when one is all stops! Do you

see

> > the

> > > > > subtle difference between them? When we start, we are like

> > baby

> > > > > monkey - I am holding on to my Mother (Divine) while She

> jumps

> > > > from

> > > > > one place to other. We trust Her but still it is I who is

> > > holding

> > > > > on - the subtle ego remains. In the other case - bhakta,

on

> > the

> > > > > contrary is a person like a kitten. Where ever my Mother

> > takes

> > > me

> > > > > She is the one who has to carry me and I am always happy in

> > > where

> > > > > ever she takes me.

> > > > >

> > > > > Hope this helps...

> > > > > humble regards,

> > > > > always at Thy Divine Feet

> > > > >

> > > > > Manjula Patel

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > --------------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > --

> > > > -

> > > > > , " sadhak_insight "

> > > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Dear Sadhak,

> > > > > > Bhakti (companionship, togetherness of those in similar

> inner

> > > > > > feeling or swabhaav) and Jnana (awareness of the current

> > > > position

> > > > > of

> > > > > > one's inner nature or swabhaav) and Karma (activity of

> > > > correction

> > > > > or

> > > > > > improvement in the inner and innate nature or swbhaav)

can

> > > lead

> > > > to

> > > > > > Yoga (truth). This paradigm of Bhakti yoga, Jnana yoga

and

> > > Karma

> > > > > > yoga are terms of critical understanding of the Bhagwat

> Gita

> > > > > > techniques.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > If one is going from Delhi to Mumbai, the path or railway

> > > route

> > > > is

> > > > > > equivalent of Dharma, but different milestones specifying

> > > > location

> > > > > > of inner nature, characteristics, temperament (swabhaav)

> > > across

> > > > the

> > > > > > journey. Bhakti is companionship or right train which if

> > > > correctly

> > > > > > decided, will take one to Mumbai whether or not one is

> aware

> > of

> > > > > > various locations and limited activity. Thus, bhakti can

> be

> > a

> > > > short

> > > > > > cut of jnana and karma. In another way, a man can go from

> > > Delhi

> > > > to

> > > > > > Mumbai alone, and is full of activity, and discovers the

> > > Mumbai.

> > > > > > Here, bhakti is not feasible but, jnana and karma are

> > together

> > > is

> > > > > > success.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Swabhaav (inner nature, characteristics) is transformed

in

> a

> > > > step

> > > > > by

> > > > > > step process, and this is purpose of activity and

> > awareness.

> > > > > Bhakti is simpler way and one can avoid tapah (austerities)

> > > which

> > > > > the discoverer like Krishna, Buddha had toiled. It is very

> > much

> > > > like

> > > > > any other set of subjects, like Physics, high school

student

> > > knows

> > > > > the ideas of Newton without spending lifetime, and this

> > > > facilitation

> > > > > is Bhakti.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Bhagwat Gita is knowledge of transformation of ones'

> > swabhaav

> > > > > (inner nature and tendencies). Whatever be the starting

> > point;

> > > by

> > > > > continued practice, awareness and companionship of right

> kind,

> > > > goal

> > > > > is achieved sooner than later.

> > > > > > Best regards

> > > > > > K G Misra

> > > > > > (Krishna Gopal)

> > > > > > ------------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > --

> > > > --

> > > > > > Priy Sadhaka,

> > > > > > As far as I perceived from Swamiji, Knowledge is received

> by

> > > > Buddhi

> > > > > > (intellect) which is part of JADA Prakruti (Limited,

Inert

> > > > Nature).

> > > > > > It can not know limitlessness. Therefore on the path of

> > > > knowledge,

> > > > > we feel incomplete (rather a very subtle form of ego

> remains).

> > > > > >

> > > > > > In MANAS Goswamiji wrote in Uttarkand that One who is

> > > intelligent

> > > > > > follows the path of devotion. Swamiji also wrote in

Sadhak

> > > > > > Sanjivani : Even after getting absolute knowledge, one

> still

> > > > longs

> > > > > for love of God, whereas devotee from the very beginning

> > (first

> > > > > step) develops love and relationship with God. So the

> devotee

> > > is

> > > > > considered to be a Gyani (intelligent). Bhagwan Sri Krishna

> > also

> > > > > told in Geetaji : Gyani (Premi) Bhakt is my most beloved.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Hope this helps,

> > > > > > Thanks,

> > > > > > Raja

> > > > > > (Raja Gurdasani)

> > > > > >

> > > > > > ------------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > --

> > > > > > Namaste.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Vivekanand said: Science without faith is dangerous,

Faith

> > > > without

> > > > > science is blind.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Based on Geetaji...

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Faith (Bhakti) without Knowledge is blind.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Knowledge (Gyan) without Faith in God is only

> superficial /

> > > > > material.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > We need both for spiritual progress (Ego to Atma) like

two

> > > > wheels

> > > > > of a bicycle:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Faith (Buddhi) to guide us in the right direction towards

> > God

> > > > > (front wheel).

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Knowledge (Mind) to understand the nature of God (back

> > wheel).

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Additionally Karmayog provides the energy to ride and

> > Dhyanyog

> > > > to

> > > > > keep us straight.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Our Guruji once said these four Yog are like the four

legs

> > of

> > > a

> > > > > chair to sit on for each of us.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Maybe these are like the four wheels of a car (kar) to

> move

> > us

> > > > > from Ahamkar to Omkar.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Hope this clarifies the points raised in this discussion.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Dr BalMukund Bhala

> > > > > >

> > > > > > ------------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > --

> > > > -

> > > > > > , " sadhak_insight "

> > > > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Clarification Sadhaka Message July 17th, Thursday

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > By combining faith (path of devotion) and inquiry (path

> of

> > > > > > > knowledge) - sadhaka's life does not remain pure, it

> > becomes

> > > > > > impure?

> > > > > > > Does this imply that a sadhaka cannot follow the path

of

> > > > devotion

> > > > > > > and path of knowledge at the same time? Why should it

> make

> > > his

> > > > > > life

> > > > > > > impure? Are these paths exclusive of each other? Please

> > > > clarify.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Subhash Madan

> > > > > > > Ram Ram

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > :Shree Hari:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > 17th July, 2008, Thursday

> > > > > > > Aashaad Shukla Chaturdashi, Vikram Samvat 2065, Guruvar

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > We never looks to ourselves, as to why we were born?

> what

> > do

> > > we

> > > > > > > want? and what are we doing? As long as we are not

> > attentive

> > > to

> > > > > > > these things, till that time, our position (please

> forgive

> > > me

> > > > for

> > > > > > > saying this), is lower than that of animals ! Our life

> is

> > > lower

> > > > > > > than that of animals, birds, trees etc. After being

born

> a

> > > man,

> > > > > > > there is not that alertness, that inquiry as to whether

> we

> > > are

> > > > > > > really men? A man must have the alertness, and a quest

> to

> > > > know -

> > > > > > > why was I born? What should I do? and what should I not

> do?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > If this understanding does not come on it's own, then

so

> > be

> > > > it.

> > > > > But

> > > > > > > from the messages of the saints and scriptures, one can

> > > > > understand

> > > > > > > completely, that human birth is attained only for one's

> > > > > liberation.

> > > > > > > From God's side, He has already given this as the last

> > birth,

> > > > > > > through which He can be realized.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Brahmaji through various sacrifices (yagna) he

manifests

> > > > > > > creation " sahyagyaah prajaah srhtavaapuraovaach

> > > prajaapatih, "

> > > > > (Gita

> > > > > > > 3:10). In other words, duty and the doer - they both

> > > > manifested

> > > > > at

> > > > > > > the same time. That which is " duty " is " innate " . Today,

> the

> > > > > > > difficulty and effort we experience in doing our duty,

> is

> > > due

> > > > to

> > > > > > > developing an affinity with the world. By it self the

> doer

> > > is

> > > > > also

> > > > > > > innate, and the duties are also innate and natural. Man

> > > himself

> > > > > > > makes them unnatural. The thought does not arise in

him,

> > > that

> > > > why

> > > > > > > did he create this unnaturalness ? How did he do that?

> If

> > he

> > > > > > > inquires into this then benefits are certain !

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Now I will share with you one thing. There are two

> paths -

> > > one

> > > > > the

> > > > > > > path of vishwaas (faith and belief) and another the

path

> of

> > > > > > jigyaasa

> > > > > > > (quest for knowledge). Faith and belief is in that

which

> > one

> > > > has

> > > > > no

> > > > > > > doubt at all, where there is not even the slightest

> > > > possibility

> > > > > of

> > > > > > a

> > > > > > > doubt arising. That faith that is free of all doubts,

> does

> > > not

> > > > > > > arise in the form of belief and faith from the onset.

> > Rather

> > > > > > > inquiry is on those things where there is some element

> of

> > > > doubt.

> > > > > In

> > > > > > > Path of Devotion (bhakti maarg), faith and belief that

> is

> > > free

> > > > of

> > > > > > > all doubts is primary and in the path of jnana

> (knowledge,

> > > > > inquiry

> > > > > > > into the Truth) some doubt / uncertainty is paramount.

> By

> > > > > combining

> > > > > > > faith and inquiry - a sadhak's (spiritual aspirant's)

> life

> > > > does

> > > > > not

> > > > > > > remain pure, it becomes impure.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > In what do we have faith? In that which we have no

> > knowledge

> > > of

> > > > > > > with our sense organs and inner faculties, we may or

may

> > not

> > > > have

> > > > > > > faith in that. There are only two points - either you

> have

> > > > faith,

> > > > > > > or you don't have faith. Whether God exists or not,

this

> > > point

> > > > is

> > > > > > > not one of belief, it is one of an inquiring seeker.

(to

> be

> > > > > > > continued)

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > From " Saadhan, Sudhaa, Sindhu " in Hindi pg. 706 by

Swami

> > > > > > > Ramsukhdasji.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Ram Ram

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > GUIDELINES FOR POSTING A RESPONSE:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > 1. The group is focused on the Holy Gitaji, therefore,

> only

> > > > > > > responses which further clarify the understanding of

> > Gitaji,

> > > > will

> > > > > > be

> > > > > > > posted.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > 2. Making reference of Gitaji shloka is highly

> encouraged -

> >

> > > at

> > > > > > least

> > > > > > > once in the response. Wherever possible, please quote

> > > Gitaji

> > > > or

> > > > > > > other scriptures to substantiate your response.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > 3. Please be as concise and to the point as possible,

> > > > respecting

> > > > > > > sadhaka's time. Under no circustance the answer should

> > > exceed

> > > > say

> > > > > > > one page at the most (500 words or so).

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > 4. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs

> etc.

> > to

> > > > the

> > > > > > > extent that they further help in understanding the Gita

> > > shlokas

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand

only.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or

> other

> > > > > > > organizations.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > 7. Complete reproduction of texts from any book is

> strongly

> > > > > > > discouraged, however references may be made of the

book

> > or

> > > > > author

> > > > > > > (but not links to other sites).

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > 8. Kindly do not include your personal information such

> as

> > > > phone

> > > > > > > number, address etc.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > 9. Please do not address the response to a particular

> > > > individual

> > > > > > > since the message is going to the entire group.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > 10. Due to the large readership, only those responses

> will

> > be

> > > > > > posted

> > > > > > > which are in line with the general philosophy of taking

> > > Shrimad

> > > > > > > Bhagavad Gita as the reference.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > 11. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the

posting,

> if

> > > > > > content

> > > > > > > is unclear for distribution or not directly related to

> the

> > > > > > question

> > > > > > > being asked.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > 12. Please respond taking into consideration the

> novices,

> > > > youth,

> > > > > > > westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the

use

> > of

> > > > only

> > > > > > > Sanskrit words, rather provide the English word with

> > Sanskrit

> > > > > > > bracketed wherever possible.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > MODERATOR

> > > > > > > Ram Ram

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Hari Om

 

Beautiful Question indeed.

 

Answer is that in Gita 7:16 to 7: 19 , the term " Jnani " essentially

represents a Lover devotee (Bhakta) only as what is being discussed

in these verses are " 4 types of Bhaktas " and nothing else. " Jnani "

term is used for one of such four devotees who loves Paramatma. He

is " Jnani Lover Bhakta " because he experiences that knowledge which

in reality is the final, the real knowledge - " Vasudevah Sarvam " .

The others love to remove pain (Aart) or worldly pleasures

(Artharthi), or solution to a riddle (Jigyaasu). You have to see

the context also while interpreting Gitaji. Then there are

explanations/adjectives also in the same verses - " ek bhaktir

vishishyate " , " nitya yuktanam " , " mamevaamanuttam gatim " which are

essentially adjectives connected with a Bhakta (devotee) only and

not with a Jnana Yogi or a Karma Yogi.

 

Here such Bhakta has also been given status of " tvatmaiva " (verily

my own self) by Krishna.. When you have reached as a lover, as a

devotee, as a Bhakta to that stage - the knowledge falls at your

lotus feet-begging for your attention. Even otherwise, one of the

end results of all 3 Yogas is " acquisition of knowledge " . A Bhakta

is not some sort of Idiot, as one may say comparing with a Jnani

taking Jnana Yoga as a path. He is " daksha " (skillful- Gita 12:16)

in his own right. Wherever reference of knowledge/intelligence/ mind

comes, you can't exclude Bhakta out of the same. He has a brain,

undoubtedly - only his focus " predominantly " is not knowledge, it is

Paramatma.

 

Thus use of term " Jnani " in Gita 7:16 to 7:19 does not make the

Paths of Jnana Yoga and Bhakti Yoga dependent on each other. They

are indeed " Independent Paths " - undoubtedly - in their own rights.

 

It may be pointed out here that in Gita, the same term has been used

at different places, in different contexts and they convey totally

different meanings.

 

Take for example the terms " Jnana " (Knowledge), " Jnani " (Knower)

and " Jneya " (Knowable).

 

The term " Jnana " has been used in Gitaji at least 55 times to convey

9 different meanings. The term " Jnani " or variation like " jnanawaan "

has been used in Gitaji for at least 7 times to convey 5 different

meanings and the the term " Jneya " has been used in Gitaji at least 4

times to convey 2 different meanings. It all depends upon the

contexts, the other adjectives associated in those verses etc to

understand the true meaning.

 

Here reference to a proper Treatise on Gitaji helps immensely. We in

India are fortunate to have with us " Sadhak Sanjeevani " and " Gita

Darpan " , written by Swamiji Shri Ramsukhdasji Maharaj, to refer to

and remove such natural doubts.

 

One can't truly understand Gitaji if he is reading it primiarly

based on the proud of sharp intellect which he possesses. Then

Gitaji becomes a riddle - the world's best riddle for him. Gitaji is

a " mirror " - as is your attitude, so it looks. The best way to

understand Gitaji is to put yourself in a surrendered mode and then

read.

 

The term " Jnani " has been used to mean " REALISED SOUL " in

3:33, " DISCRIMINATING ASPIRANT (viveki sadhak) in 3:39, LOVER BHAKTA

in 7:16 to 19, KNOWER OF THE ESSENCE OF SCRIPTURES in 4:34 and

KNOWLEDGEABLE IN SCRIPTURES in 6:46 !!

 

The following is the complete list of 55 places and 9 different

meanings of the term " Jnana " :-

 

1 Meaning - " GENERAL KNOWLEDGE " (9 times)

 

Gita 3:32/9:12/10:38/14:1/14:6

18:18 to 21

 

2 Meaning - " KNOWLEDGE OF SCRIPTURES " ( 3 times)

 

Gita 4:28/12:12/18:42

 

3 Meaning- " FIRM ACCEPTANCE " (3 times)

 

Gita 4:10/7:2/9:1

 

4 Meaning - " SURRENDER " ( 1 time)

 

Gita 18:63

 

5. Meaning- " DISCRIMINATION BETWEEN SAT ( Real) AND ASAT( Unreal) "

( 15 times)

 

Gita 3:3/4:27/4:33/5:16/7:20/

9:15/10:4/13:2/13:34/14:9/14:11/14:17/15:10/15:15/18:50

 

6 Meaning - " DISCRIMINATION BETWEEN DUTY AND NON-DUTY " ( 6 times)

 

Gita 3:39 to 41/4:41-42/6:8

 

7 Meaning - " FINAL ULTIMATE KNOWLEDGE ( Tattwa Jnana). ( 14 times)

 

Gita 4:19/ 4:23/ 4:33 to 39/ 5:17/10:11/13:17/14:1-2/16:1

 

8 Meaning- " .METHODS OF JNANA YOGA " ( 3 times)

 

Gita 13:11/13:17-18

 

9 Meaning - " STUDY OF SCRIPTURES " ( one time)

 

Gita 18:70

 

Hope the above clarifies the query fully.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

 

-------------------------------

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

Swamiji has explained this in detail and clearly in the Sadhak

Sanjivani.

 

When one attains knowledge (Jnana), the error that has specific

characteristics, is removed; i.e. even though the world is seen, the

attraction for the world ends. But in " Devotion " (Bhakti), the error

without characteristics is also removed; i.e. the World is not seen,

only God is seen. " Vasudeva Sarvam " .

 

In the Gita the true man of Wisdom (Jnani) is a devotee (Bhakt). The

word Jnani has been used for a devotee and not for a man with

knowledge. Everyone is independent to follow his or her path (Jnana,

Karma or Bhakti). All the three paths leads to the same end. But on

a comparison of the three, devotion (Bhakti) is the best. In bhakti

you will automatically understand the other two, where as, it is not

necessary that you will understand bhakti if you follow either Jnana

or karma.

 

The ultimate stage of devotion (Bhakti) is complete refuge in God

(sharnagati). At the end of Jnana, you will understand Bhakti. This

is only true if you do not criticise Bhakti. All the paths are

equally important. You cannot and should not criticise any path. To Lord Krishna

even the banana was not as delicious as the banana peels that Vidurani fed him

with love and devotion. Devotion (bhakti)

is the best spiritual discipline as expressed by Swamiji.

 

Therefore with reference to Jnanis, God has acknowledged the Devotee

(Bhakta) to be Supreme -

 

" Mayya vaishya mano yeh maam, nitya yuktaa upaasate;

Shraddhayaa parayopetaaste mein yuktatamaa mataah. " (Gita 12:2)

 

" Those who, fixing their mind on Me, worship Me ever steadfast and

are endowed with Supreme faith, are the most perfect Yogis in My

opinion. " (Gita 12:2)

 

Meera Das

Ram Ram

-------------------------------

Shri Krishnah sharanam mama

 

I think which marg (path) should be followed depends essentially on

what a person desires to achieve ultimately. And what one desires

depends on the three gunas (attributes- Satva, Rajas, Tamas) and

sanskars (instincts) one has acquired or one possesses through one's

innumerable births in the past (Gita 3.5, 13.21 etc). While it is

true that all the paths take you somewhere, there are limits up to

which you can go, or a particular marg can lead you up to. The Karma

marg can at best get you the paradise (svarga loka), if you have

done all punya. But Gita ( 9.21) says that after the punyas exhaust,

a Jiva is thrown back into this mortal world again into the cycle of

birth and death. The Gyan Marg will enable you to know the Self and

the Consciousness. A follower of the highest order in the Gyan or

Yog Marg can even transcend the cycle of birth and death (and attain

Moksha), still the eternal Bliss of Bhagwan can not be achieved,

until the web of Maya (illusion, Prakriti) is crossed. Those of the

most enlightened Gyaanis and Yogis could attain Brahma Loka, but

even up to this Loka, the domain of Maya pervades. Maya can be

crossed over only and only when in Bhakti Marg, a devotee fully

surrenders to Him and to Him alone (Gita 7.14), since He alone can

influence, direct or wield His own power-Maya. A human can never

become as powerful as Bhagwan to be able to cross over it through

his own efforts, since Maya is Bhagwan's own power. Even

Shankaracharya realized this, although he was an ardent follower and

preacher of Gyan Marg and has said so in his Bhashya and advised his

own mother to worship Shri Krishna.

 

The followers of deities, gods, demigods etc. through Karma marg can

attain whatever their gods can grant them within their powers. Shri

Krishna will only be too glad to help in this cause (Gita 7.21).

However the Superconsciousness, the Bliss and His abode could be

only achieved through Bhakti Marg. An ardent follower of this Marg

can also get all that which one can get through both Karma Marg and

Gyan Marg, if he so desires. The converse is not true. But a

follower of Bhakti Marg does not seek these things. His goal is much

higher. It is not materialistic, but spiritual. The process of both

Karma Marg and the knowledge/Gyan Marg is to know the truth,

reality, Jiva, Soul etc. but these will lead a follower up to a

certain limit only. Beyond this, if they have to transcend the

bondage of Maya or to strive to be able to attain Bhagwan, the

knowledge (gyan) has to first vanquish ignorance and thereafter

should itself dissolve. The sense of doership/I-ness should vanish

since the karma and gyan both are acquired by a person through own

efforts and will invariably bring that feeling in the sub-conscious

mind. Later, only the Bhakti marg and 'atma-samarpana' (complete

surrender) can lead to Bhagwatprapti (God realisation).

 

Regards.

 

K.N. Sharma

 

--------------------------------

, " sadhak_insight "

<sadhak_insight wrote:

>

> Namaste,

>

> There are a couple of verses in the Bhagvad Gita in Chapter VII -

16

> and 17, which begin with " Chaturvidha Bhajante Maam " ... etc.

>

> Essentially these two verses say " There are 4 types of Bhaktas -

The

> one who is in distress (some pain or trouble), The one who is

> seeking after material success (wealth, power etc.), The one who

is

> seeking after God Knowledge and the one who already knows (Jnani).

> Of these 4 types of Bhaktas, The Jnani (The wise one), who is in

> ever constant union with the divine, whose devotion is single

> minded, is the bext of them all. I am supremely dear to him, and

he

> is supremely dear to Me.

>

> The inter-connection between Jnana and Bhakti, is being

irrevocably

> established by Shri Krishna himself, it seems to me in these two

> verses. I wonder how you would reconcile these verses with the

view

> that Bhakta and Jnana are entirely separate paths etc ?

>

> Kalyan Viswanathan

>

> -

> Dear Sadak,

> Path of Devotion is you- Path of knwledge is your shadow. As long

as

> you think shadow and you are differant than confusion.

> B.Sathyanarayan

>

>

>

>

>

> , " sadhak_insight "

> <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> >

> > Shree Hari

> > Ram Ram

> >

> > After reading the responses below, if there are no further

> doubts , regarding the question posed by Subhashji, we bring this

> question to a closure to pursue a new topic for discussion.

> > From Gita Talk Moderator

> > Ram Ram

> >

> >

> > Subhashji's Question:

> > Regarding combining faith (path of devotion) and inquiry (path

of

> knowledge) - sadhaka's life does not remain pure, it becomes

> > impure? Does this imply that a sadhaka cannot follow the path of

> > devotion and path of knowledge at the same time? Why should it

> > make his life impure? Are these paths exclusive of each other?

> Please

> > clarify.

> > Subhash Madan

> >

> > ------------------------------

> > -Shree Hari-

> > I found Rajendra J Bohra comments most interesting.

> >

> > I often thought how did this journey start?(In my case that is).

> > Something like this; Does what I am being taught of spiritual

> matters

> > hold up to deep thought NO!

> > Do I feel that these 'Holy' texts agree NO!

> > Do I have blind faith No!

> > Am I afraid to stand alone NO!

> > Does science have all the answers, in fact does science agree NO!

> > This process , goes on for decades .

> > Then a change starts to occur sometimes mixed with NO responses.

> > Something like this; OK if science stumbles over the source of

> > existence, then where are the answers?

> > Right let me see now, if at the very deepest quantum level all

> > matter is energy vibration, and some scientist believe all

> existence

> > comes in and out of reality at a high frequency, does any

religion

> > deal with such things.

> > Many more questions of course, but then my head started to look

> > towards 'Eastern Wisdom'.

> > Because it seemed to deal with the things I had experienced, the

> > things I had learned and unlearned.

> > And now to the Bhagavad Gita. Does it vibrate with truth and

the

> > Sacred YES!

> >

> > With Respect and Divine Love

> >

> > Mike

> > (Mike Keenor)

> > --------------------------------

--

> -

> > Hari Om

> >

> > I fully agree with Sadhak Rajendraji.

> >

> > Every Yoga ultimately drives the aspirant towards -

" disconnection

> > with the world " . As soon as disconnection takes place , eternal

> > connection with Paramatma comes into realisation, into

> experience !!

> >

> > That is why Paramatma is always " realised/attained " not " got " .

You

> > remember/recollect your an already existing eternal connection

> > with Paramatma (smartir labdha- I have now

remembered/recollected-

> > Gita 18 :73 - last words of Arjuna)

> >

> > A Bhakta starts his spiritual journey with the outlook-

> >

> > " I am of the Paramatma. He only is mine and nothing else is

mine. "

> >

> > He surrenders and/or does every action only in relation with

> > Paramatma, gets wholly dependent on Him and very soon starts

> > realising that all others around him are as good of Paramatma as

is

> > he himself. Then the world disappears for him. He sees Paramatma

> > everywhere. Friendliness and compassion enter his attitude

> > naturally. He in the end " attains " (realises) love of

Paramatma.

> He

> > becomes " indivisible " with Him. He has nothing to attain

(realise)

> > now.

> >

> > A Jnana Yogi starts his journey with the outlook -

> >

> > " I am not body. Nothing is mine. I don't need anything "

> >

> > He then with the help of inquiry and doubt keeps on feeling -

> > " neti " " neti " - not this , not this - and in the end when

entire

> > world and the body by his enquiries get negated as not him, not

for

> > him, different than him, he gets disconnected with the world.

> > Egolessness, desirelessness, non-attachment with family,

isolation,

> > meditation (Dhyaan Yoga / Raaj Yoga) etc quite naturally become

> part

> > of his attitude. He then says " yes " only in respect of truth

> > (satsanga, Good Scriptures, Paramatma, that element which does

not

> > change, and of course " SELF " ) ! ! What remains thereafter is

> SELF ,

> > which he considers as Paramatma. (Aham Brahmasmi- I am Brahma).

He

> > becomes equal to Paramatma. He has nothing left to know now.

> >

> > A Karma Yogi starts his spiritual journey with the outlook -

> >

> > " I am Yogi. I am a servant and a debtor to the World.. I have to

do

> > my duty. I don't have to do anything for myself. I have to serve

> the

> > world "

> >

> > He thus honestly returns whatever he has got/gets from the world

by

> > way of service/his duty, including his body.(By Karmas). He does

> > Karmas always for others, never for himself. Charity,

> unselfishness,

> > dutifulness, renunciation (tyaag) etc become part of his

attitude.

> > His old debts get repaid and as he has not expected anything in

> > return, no new debts are incurred. Having become debt free, in

the

> > end, he gets disconnected with the world- because his connection

> > with world was contractual arising out of Karmas done

> for " himself " .

> > In the end he gets established into Equanimity. He becomes

nearest

> > to Paramatma (who is also Equanimous like him). He has nothing

to

> do

> > now.

> >

> > Jai Shree Krishna

> >

> > Vyas N B

> >

> > --------------------------------

--

> -

> > , " sadhak_insight "

> > sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> >

> > Jai Shri Krishna,

> >

> > I agree with Sadhak Sathyanarainji. Knowledge comes later on.

> >

> > " Knowledge " in fact in case of all 3 yogas comes as an end

result

> > upon accomplishment of Yoga- and not before. " Knowledge " , in

> > spiritual and Gita terminology is not information, it is that

> > element after knowing which nothing remains to be known. It

> > satiates/extinguishes the very desire in you - " to know

something "

> > You have known everthing.

> >

> > It goes without saying that the moment doubt comes, the faith

> > extinguishes. The terms are 100 percent opposite to each other.

> > Just as darkness and Sun can't remain together- so is the case

> between faith and doubt. If you have doubt, where is Faith? If you

> have faith , where is the question of doubt? Both can't remain

> together.

> >

> > It is also a fact that advent of knowledge about anything

destroys

> > at that moment itself the faith pertaining to that thing- just as

> > advent of sun rays instantly destroys darkness . Where is the

> > question of faith when express knowledge is available? Therefore

> > the faith is always placed in respect of that thing about which

> > knowledge is not available.

> >

> > Belief in fact is one of the only 3 powers which a human being

has

> > got. It is not an ordinary thing. In fact Gita has allocated one

> > entire chapter on belief only!

> > Another thing to be kept in mind is that these ways have

> > thoroughly independent and vastly different means /

methodologies/

> processes. It is like one starting journey towards west and

another

> towards east.

> > Since the world is round they meet in the end !

> >

> > A Bhakta starts his journey by changing his Aham ( Ego) from " I

> > am of the world. World is mine " to " I am of Paramatma. Only

> > Paramatma is mine. Nothing else is mine "

> >

> > Now this is an established Truth. Irrespective of whether you

have

> > faith or not, you are of Him, Only He is yours and nothing else

is

> > yours. Now if you doubt this, established truth itself, where

> > will you reach? You will only drive your self towards false hood.

> >

> > Therefore Swamiji told never mix doubt with faith. It will make

> > you impure ! !

> >

> > Paramatma is beyond knowledge. A Jnana Yogi has nothing to do

with

> > Paramatma at the start of his journey. His goal is SELF. Now in

> > that goal you must have doubt. Is body mine? Doubt. Answer- No!

Is

> > world mine? Doubt. Answer -No! Is body me? Doubt. Answer-No! Do I

> > need anything for myself? Doubt. Answer-No.....and so on.

> >

> > Now if you mix faith here, where will you reach? How will you

> > acquire knowledge, if you are acting on faith? A Jnana Yogi is

> > more sterner than a scientist in his attitude. He can't

establish

> into SELF otherwise.

> >

> > Therefore Swamiji told never mix faith in doubt(means of

acquiring

> > knowledge). It will make your life impure.

> >

> > Narayana Narayana

> >

> > Rajendra J Bohra

> >

> > -------------------------------

--

> > > , " sadhak_insight "

> > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Hari Om

> > > >

> > > > Example given by Sadhak Manmohanji may not be applicable in

> this

> > > > case. In Bhakti the belief never gets broken - because it is

> > about

> > > > established truth - " I am of the God and only God is mine " .

In

> > > > Bhakti, an aspirant never has to find a dead end and he can

> > never

> > > > return wondering if he needs help of knowledeable person to

> > > > supplement. Bhakti Yoga is path in itself. Here the Laws

made

> by

> > > > Lord Himself ensure that there are no obstacles on the path.

> > Refer

> > > > Gita 9:22- here Lord declares , " yogakshemam vahamyaham "

which

> > > > means " I shall make available whatever is necessary for

> > aspirant

> > > to

> > > > accomplish his yoga " . Infallible laws start operating with

your

> > > > reference, as soon as, you take path of devotion. Another law

> > > which

> > > > becomes operational is stated in Gita 7:21. Here Krishna

takes

> > > > responsibilty of " strengthening the belief " of the believer.

> > Your

> > > > belief will keep on strengthening.

> > > >

> > > > There was a shortage of conviction and belief in the person

> > > > returning after seeing dead end. THERE WAS AN ELEMENT OF

DOUBT

> > IN

> > > > HIM. He in fact had already mixed doubt in his belief when he

> > set

> > > > out and when he returned. Unfortunately in his case the

belief

> > was

> > > > not exactly the same as was the established truth (which is

> the

> > > > case with Bhakta) and there was nobody who took

responsibilty

> as

> > > it

> > > > is in case of Bhakta under Gita 9:22.

> > > >

> > > > Since he mixed doubt in his belief, therefore he has now

become

> > > > dependent on knowledge. Otherwise when he started his

journey,

> > he

> > > > was all alone. So impurity has come in his path.

> > > >

> > > > The person having map with complete instructions, topography

of

> > > the

> > > > mountain, complete grasp of the path and comprehensive

overview

> > of

> > > > the obstacles did not have confidence in his knowledge. He

> might

> > > > have mixed some beliefs already in his knowledge when he

firmed

> > up

> > > > the topography, map, instructions, overview etc.- Which only

> can

> > > > result in his lack of confidence. He is in difficulty now.

His

> > > life

> > > > has become impure. He now is dependent upon faith. He is not

> > sure

> > > > whether he will reach to the top. Otherwise when he started

> > making

> > > > maps etc. he was all alone. Need was only of the knowledge

> > > acquired

> > > > by method of " doubting " .

> > > >

> > > > Such a situation does not arise in case of Bhakti Yogi at

> least -

> >

> > > > for the reasons stated above.. Moreover Karma Yoga (KY),

Jnana

> > > Yoga

> > > > (JY) and Bhakti Yoga ( BY) are independent paths, complete

in

> > > > themselves.

> > > >

> > > > But in the end they give same results by and large. In case

of

> > > > Bhakti however an aspirant gets Love of God additionally.

> > > Otherwise

> > > > all three get you -

> > > >

> > > > (i) Early accomplishment ( ref for KY Gita 5:6, for JY

4:39,

> > for

> > > > BY 12:7),

> > > > (ii) Destruction of sins( KY 4:23, JY4:36/37 BY 18:66)

> > > > (iii) Contentment (KY 2:55,3:17, JY 6:20, BY 10:9,12:14)

> > > > (iv) Peace ( KY 2:71,5:12, JY 4:39, BY 6:15,9:31)

> > > > (v) Equanimity ( KY 4:22, JY6:29, 14:24 BY 10:10)

> > > > (vi) Knowledge ( KY 4:38, JY 13:34,BY 10:11) and

> > > > (vii) Purification of inner sense/bliss and pleasure (KY

> 2:64,JY

> > > > 18:54 , BY 6:14) etc.

> > > >

> > > > However many learned sadhaks have quite rightly felt that

there

> > > may

> > > > be a need of taking simultaneous paths also. I do not see any

> > > thing

> > > > wrong with the same except what Swamiji has stated re:

mixing

> of

> > > > belief in doubt, and of doubt in belief. That does create

> > > > difficulties in pursuing the JY with BY.

> > > >

> > > > In fact in Gita also, at many places, in case of certain

> > > > qualities / features overlapping has been noticed among

these 3

> > > > yogas ..

> > > >

> > > > In KY, for example - Gita 2:61/3:30/5:10 are basically from

BY

> > and

> > > > 5:7 is quality of JY. Similarly in JY - Gita 5:24/12:4

quality

> > of

> > > > engagement in welfare of all creatures is from KY and

features

> > > > stated in 13:10/14:26 are from BY.

> > > > In BY - Gita 12:11/18:46 qualities are of KY and 15:5/7:29

some

> > > > qualities stated in them are from JY.

> > > >

> > > > Hope this clarifies the queries fully.

> > > >

> > > > Jai Shree Krishna

> > > >

> > > > Vyas N B

> > > >

> > > > ----------------------------

--

> -

> > > > Dear Sadak,

> > > > Path of pure devotion in sorrow or happiness leads to path of

> > > > knowledge.

> > > > Example: Ramana Rishi was teenage without much education.

> > Devotion

> > > > gave abundant knowledge. He could quote any thing from 108

> > > > Upanashids.

> > > > Recently Valalar near Chennai wrote wonderful scripts. He was

> > much

> > > > educated. Valmiki was a thief. Only Ram Nam gave knowledge to

> > > write

> > > > Srimath Ramayan.

> > > > B.Sathyanarayan

> > > > ----------------------------

--

> --

> > > > Bhakti Marg, Gyana Marg, Yoga Marg or Karma Marg - they can

all

> > > > jointly or severally lead to our Creator. What is to be

avoided

> > in

> > > > all these paths is Adharma (unrighteousness). 'Rah pakad tu

ek

> > > > chalachal, pa jaiga Madhushala'

> > > > Please notice, M of Madhushala is capital.

> > > >

> > > > Dr. Jagdish Shama

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > ----------------------------

--

> -

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > , " sadhak_insight "

> > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > Imagine two persons standing at the foot of a hill who

want

> to

> > > go

> > > > to

> > > > > a Shiva temple, which is at the peak of the mountain. One

has

> > a

> > > > map

> > > > > with complete instructions and the topography of the

> mountain.

> > > He

> > > > > studies the map over and over and has complete grasp of the

> > path

> > > > and

> > > > > the obstacles he is going to face on his journey. But he

does

> > > not

> > > > > have the faith in himself if he can climb the mountain. All

> > type

> > > > of

> > > > > doubts come in his mind and he stays at the foot of the

> temple

> > > > > thinking if should start or not, if he will be able to

make

> it

> > > to

> > > > > the top or not.

> > > > >

> > > > > The other has complete faith in himself and is ready to

start

> > > and

> > > > is

> > > > > sure to reach the top, but has no directions. He travels

few

> > > > hundred

> > > > > yards and sees a dead end and comes back. He is at loss and

> > can

> > > > not

> > > > > judge as which path is the right for him

> > > > >

> > > > > Then both of them talk to each other and with the faith and

> > > > > encouragement of the one and knowledge of the other , both

> > > reach

> > > > > the summit.

> > > > >

> > > > > When they were at the summit, the only thing, which

mattered,

> > > was

> > > > > that both were in the temple of God and were immersed in

His

> > > > bliss.

> > > > >

> > > > > It is not correct to separate these paths, as both are

> > essential

> > > > for

> > > > > the ultimate goal.

> > > > >

> > > > > Also the second reason why they should be practiced

together

> > is

> > > > that

> > > > > one path acts as an antidote for the weakness of the other

> > > path .

> > > > > Practicing the path of knowledge has tendency to enhance

the

> > > ego,

> > > > so

> > > > > the path of faith, which teaches submission, counters it.

> > > > Similarly

> > > > > path of faith has a tendency to create blind faith, and

path

> > of

> > > > > knowledge helps it to stay on the right course.

> > > > > Although various great teachers like Shankra, Chaitanya (or

> > > > > Prabhupad) , and B G Tilak have interpreted Gita to suite

> > their

> > > > > thinking and say Gita is nothing but Gian yoga, or Bhakti

> yoga

> > > or

> > > > > Karam yoga , Lord Krishna has emphasized to pursue all the

> > paths

> > > > to

> > > > > keep it in balance.

> > > > > When one has achieved the goal and has merged in Him, all

> > these

> > > > > variations disappear.

> > > > >

> > > > > Manmohan Sehgal

> > > > > --------------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > --

> > > > >

> > > > > Dear Sadaks,

> > > > > This combing does not come to one`s intellect if one has

not

> > > made

> > > > > sufficient practice on spritual life in earlier birth. We

can

> > > see

> > > > > many people next to us does not care even to listen

> devotional

> > > > songs

> > > > > when we play. This body equipment is result of our earlier

> > > karmas

> > > > > and desires. So if one has sincerly attempted spritual path

> > and

> > > > lead

> > > > > divine life in his previous birth he automatically gets

> desire

> > > to

> > > > > continue in this birth. Many of us know what is Vasana.

> Vasana

> > > can

> > > > > be divine or worldly. Earlier birth vasana be divine then

it

> > > > > contiues in present birth. This is combing.

> > > > > Buddha did combing as to why aging, death, disease etc. HIS

> > > > brother

> > > > > in law Devadatha was with Buddha for 13 years. But just

> before

> > > > > Buddha life to end Devadatha was claiming Buddha position.

> How

> > > > many

> > > > > of us question ourselves, " My end is going to be the same

as

> > > that

> > > > > of a minister or begger- same cremation/burial- what

happens

> > > next-

> > > > > am I not wasting time seeing things around me and not

> > forsaking

> > > > > attachment " . This comes in mind to us like a flash, then

back

> > to

> > > > > world. Only Adi Sanakara, Buddha, Puranderdas, Tukaram,

> > Thirupan

> > > > > Alwar can think. Body is the same composition for all. It

is

> > > > > previous strong Vasana/Desire in divinity that contiues.

> > > > > B.Sathyanarayan

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > --------------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > --

> > > > >

> > > > > , " sadhak_insight "

> > > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Hari Om

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Here the meaning is to state that Bhakti and Jnana Yoga

are

> > > > > > independent paths. In jnana yoga the doubt is essence in

> > your

> > > > > quest.

> > > > > > Because there is curiosity in your mind for search of the

> > > truth.

> > > > > > That curiosity in fact later on leads you to the truth.

> Once

> > > > your

> > > > > > quest is over, and you realise the truth then you

> naturally

> > > > start

> > > > > > believing. But in Bhakti Yoga , the very doubt is not

> > > > acceptable.

> > > > > > You have to have total belief. Because there the devotee

> > > starts

> > > > > with

> > > > > > a mind set that his belief is truthful and in reality

> that

> > > is

> > > > > > truth only. In fact both Jnana Yoga and Karma Yoga

are " of

> > > this

> > > > > > world " pursuits - they are in relation to the world and

> > hence

> > > > they

> > > > > > are called " laukik " . In these two, disconnection with

world

> > > > > becomes

> > > > > > the result in the end. What remains there after is

eternal

> > > > > > connection with Paramatma only. Even otherwise the

> > Paramatma

> > > is

> > > > > > connected with you..Bhakti Yoga is " alaukik " – " out of

this

> > > > > world, "

> > > > > > divine path. Here you start with reality itself, that is

> > > > > connection

> > > > > > with Paramatma. Then the disconnection with the world

> > becomes

> > > > > > automatic.. Even otherwise the world is disconnecting

with

> > > you!

> > > > > >

> > > > > > If you are curious, then blind faith makes you " impure "

> > (not

> > > > > > impious)- ashuddha. Doubt is in essence, there. Because

> > > > otherwise

> > > > > > you get into a dilemma. Similarly, when you have chosen

> > path

> > > of

> > > > > > devotion, then any doubt makes your sadhna (striving)

> > impure.

> > > > > There

> > > > > > is no place for doubt in Bhakti Yoga. Belief is essence

> > there.

> > > > Any

> > > > > > way , here the hindi word used was " asuddha " (impure,

> > > > adulterated,

> > > > > > not exactly precise, confusing) and it does not mean "

> > > apavitra "

> > > > > > (impious, sinful). If your goal is Paramatma or quest for

> > > truth

> > > > > you

> > > > > > never become impious. In the process adopted by you an

> > > impurity,

> > > > > an

> > > > > > inappropriateness, an imperfection comes, if you mix

doubt

> > in

> > > > > belief

> > > > > > or belief in curiosity.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Jai Shree Krishna

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Vyas N B

> > > > > >

> > > > > > ------------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > --

> > > > -

> > > > >

> > > > > > Loving Divine,

> > > > > > Pranam.

> > > > > > I agree that we are a mixture of bhakti (devotion), gyaan

> > > > > > (knowledge), karma (right action), dhyaan (yoga-

> > meditation).

> > > > > > Usually that's how we start. We have doubts, questions

to

> > be

> > > > > > clarified, etc. so we use gyaan yoga. But what Swamiji

is

> > > > saying

> > > > > > when one is truly surrendered, no doubt/question arises

in

> > > > > devotee's

> > > > > > mind because true devotee is completely dependent on God

> and

> > > the

> > > > > > attitude is whatever God does, He knows what is best for

me

> > so

> > > > > there

> > > > > > is no question or doubt or objection or desire to change

> the

> > > > > > situation arising in him/her. This is a true state of

> > > bhakti.

> > > > > But

> > > > > > if you have questions or doubts need to be resolved, if

you

> > > > think

> > > > > > why me God, or if you pray to change the present

situation

> > or

> > > > > > object, it is not true bhakti because you have not

> > surrendered

> > > > > > completely yet to God and finding answers require

enquiry,

> > so

> > > it

> > > > > is

> > > > > > gyaan yoga. When one is questioning, objection,

enquiring,

> > > one

> > > > is

> > > > > > not truly surrendered and when one is all stops! Do you

> see

> > > the

> > > > > > subtle difference between them? When we start, we are

like

> > > baby

> > > > > > monkey - I am holding on to my Mother (Divine) while She

> > jumps

> > > > > from

> > > > > > one place to other. We trust Her but still it is I who

is

> > > > holding

> > > > > > on - the subtle ego remains. In the other case -

bhakta,

> on

> > > the

> > > > > > contrary is a person like a kitten. Where ever my Mother

> > > takes

> > > > me

> > > > > > She is the one who has to carry me and I am always happy

in

> > > > where

> > > > > > ever she takes me.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Hope this helps...

> > > > > > humble regards,

> > > > > > always at Thy Divine Feet

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Manjula Patel

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > ------------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > --

> > > > --

> > > > > -

> > > > > > , " sadhak_insight "

> > > > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Dear Sadhak,

> > > > > > > Bhakti (companionship, togetherness of those in similar

> > inner

> > > > > > > feeling or swabhaav) and Jnana (awareness of the

current

> > > > > position

> > > > > > of

> > > > > > > one's inner nature or swabhaav) and Karma (activity of

> > > > > correction

> > > > > > or

> > > > > > > improvement in the inner and innate nature or swbhaav)

> can

> > > > lead

> > > > > to

> > > > > > > Yoga (truth). This paradigm of Bhakti yoga, Jnana yoga

> and

> > > > Karma

> > > > > > > yoga are terms of critical understanding of the Bhagwat

> > Gita

> > > > > > > techniques.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > If one is going from Delhi to Mumbai, the path or

railway

> > > > route

> > > > > is

> > > > > > > equivalent of Dharma, but different milestones

specifying

> > > > > location

> > > > > > > of inner nature, characteristics, temperament

(swabhaav)

> > > > across

> > > > > the

> > > > > > > journey. Bhakti is companionship or right train which

if

> > > > > correctly

> > > > > > > decided, will take one to Mumbai whether or not one is

> > aware

> > > of

> > > > > > > various locations and limited activity. Thus, bhakti

can

> > be

> > > a

> > > > > short

> > > > > > > cut of jnana and karma. In another way, a man can go

from

> > > > Delhi

> > > > > to

> > > > > > > Mumbai alone, and is full of activity, and discovers

the

> > > > Mumbai.

> > > > > > > Here, bhakti is not feasible but, jnana and karma are

> > > together

> > > > is

> > > > > > > success.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Swabhaav (inner nature, characteristics) is

transformed

> in

> > a

> > > > > step

> > > > > > by

> > > > > > > step process, and this is purpose of activity and

> > > awareness.

> > > > > > Bhakti is simpler way and one can avoid tapah

(austerities)

> > > > which

> > > > > > the discoverer like Krishna, Buddha had toiled. It is

very

> > > much

> > > > > like

> > > > > > any other set of subjects, like Physics, high school

> student

> > > > knows

> > > > > > the ideas of Newton without spending lifetime, and this

> > > > > facilitation

> > > > > > is Bhakti.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Bhagwat Gita is knowledge of transformation of ones'

> > > swabhaav

> > > > > > (inner nature and tendencies). Whatever be the starting

> > > point;

> > > > by

> > > > > > continued practice, awareness and companionship of right

> > kind,

> > > > > goal

> > > > > > is achieved sooner than later.

> > > > > > > Best regards

> > > > > > > K G Misra

> > > > > > > (Krishna Gopal)

> > > > > > > ----------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > --

> > > > --

> > > > > --

> > > > > > > Priy Sadhaka,

> > > > > > > As far as I perceived from Swamiji, Knowledge is

received

> > by

> > > > > Buddhi

> > > > > > > (intellect) which is part of JADA Prakruti (Limited,

> Inert

> > > > > Nature).

> > > > > > > It can not know limitlessness. Therefore on the path of

> > > > > knowledge,

> > > > > > we feel incomplete (rather a very subtle form of ego

> > remains).

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > In MANAS Goswamiji wrote in Uttarkand that One who is

> > > > intelligent

> > > > > > > follows the path of devotion. Swamiji also wrote in

> Sadhak

> > > > > > > Sanjivani : Even after getting absolute knowledge, one

> > still

> > > > > longs

> > > > > > for love of God, whereas devotee from the very beginning

> > > (first

> > > > > > step) develops love and relationship with God. So the

> > devotee

> > > > is

> > > > > > considered to be a Gyani (intelligent). Bhagwan Sri

Krishna

> > > also

> > > > > > told in Geetaji : Gyani (Premi) Bhakt is my most beloved.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Hope this helps,

> > > > > > > Thanks,

> > > > > > > Raja

> > > > > > > (Raja Gurdasani)

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > ----------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > --

> > > > --

> > > > > > > Namaste.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Vivekanand said: Science without faith is dangerous,

> Faith

> > > > > without

> > > > > > science is blind.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Based on Geetaji...

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Faith (Bhakti) without Knowledge is blind.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Knowledge (Gyan) without Faith in God is only

> > superficial /

> > > > > > material.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > We need both for spiritual progress (Ego to Atma) like

> two

> > > > > wheels

> > > > > > of a bicycle:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Faith (Buddhi) to guide us in the right direction

towards

> > > God

> > > > > > (front wheel).

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Knowledge (Mind) to understand the nature of God (back

> > > wheel).

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Additionally Karmayog provides the energy to ride and

> > > Dhyanyog

> > > > > to

> > > > > > keep us straight.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Our Guruji once said these four Yog are like the four

> legs

> > > of

> > > > a

> > > > > > chair to sit on for each of us.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Maybe these are like the four wheels of a car (kar) to

> > move

> > > us

> > > > > > from Ahamkar to Omkar.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Hope this clarifies the points raised in this

discussion.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Dr BalMukund Bhala

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > ----------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > --

> > > > --

> > > > > -

> > > > > > > , " sadhak_insight "

> > > > > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Clarification Sadhaka Message July 17th, Thursday

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > By combining faith (path of devotion) and inquiry

(path

> > of

> > > > > > > > knowledge) - sadhaka's life does not remain pure, it

> > > becomes

> > > > > > > impure?

> > > > > > > > Does this imply that a sadhaka cannot follow the

path

> of

> > > > > devotion

> > > > > > > > and path of knowledge at the same time? Why should it

> > make

> > > > his

> > > > > > > life

> > > > > > > > impure? Are these paths exclusive of each other?

Please

> > > > > clarify.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Subhash Madan

> > > > > > > > Ram Ram

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > :Shree Hari:

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > 17th July, 2008, Thursday

> > > > > > > > Aashaad Shukla Chaturdashi, Vikram Samvat 2065,

Guruvar

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > We never looks to ourselves, as to why we were born?

> > what

> > > do

> > > > we

> > > > > > > > want? and what are we doing? As long as we are not

> > > attentive

> > > > to

> > > > > > > > these things, till that time, our position (please

> > forgive

> > > > me

> > > > > for

> > > > > > > > saying this), is lower than that of animals ! Our

life

> > is

> > > > lower

> > > > > > > > than that of animals, birds, trees etc. After being

> born

> > a

> > > > man,

> > > > > > > > there is not that alertness, that inquiry as to

whether

> > we

> > > > are

> > > > > > > > really men? A man must have the alertness, and a

quest

> > to

> > > > > know -

> > > > > > > > why was I born? What should I do? and what should I

not

> > do?

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > If this understanding does not come on it's own,

then

> so

> > > be

> > > > > it.

> > > > > > But

> > > > > > > > from the messages of the saints and scriptures, one

can

> > > > > > understand

> > > > > > > > completely, that human birth is attained only for

one's

> > > > > > liberation.

> > > > > > > > From God's side, He has already given this as the

last

> > > birth,

> > > > > > > > through which He can be realized.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Brahmaji through various sacrifices (yagna) he

> manifests

> > > > > > > > creation " sahyagyaah prajaah srhtavaapuraovaach

> > > > prajaapatih, "

> > > > > > (Gita

> > > > > > > > 3:10). In other words, duty and the doer - they both

> > > > > manifested

> > > > > > at

> > > > > > > > the same time. That which is " duty " is " innate " .

Today,

> > the

> > > > > > > > difficulty and effort we experience in doing our

duty,

> > is

> > > > due

> > > > > to

> > > > > > > > developing an affinity with the world. By it self the

> > doer

> > > > is

> > > > > > also

> > > > > > > > innate, and the duties are also innate and natural.

Man

> > > > himself

> > > > > > > > makes them unnatural. The thought does not arise in

> him,

> > > > that

> > > > > why

> > > > > > > > did he create this unnaturalness ? How did he do

that?

> > If

> > > he

> > > > > > > > inquires into this then benefits are certain !

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Now I will share with you one thing. There are two

> > paths -

> > > > one

> > > > > > the

> > > > > > > > path of vishwaas (faith and belief) and another the

> path

> > of

> > > > > > > jigyaasa

> > > > > > > > (quest for knowledge). Faith and belief is in that

> which

> > > one

> > > > > has

> > > > > > no

> > > > > > > > doubt at all, where there is not even the slightest

> > > > > possibility

> > > > > > of

> > > > > > > a

> > > > > > > > doubt arising. That faith that is free of all doubts,

> > does

> > > > not

> > > > > > > > arise in the form of belief and faith from the onset.

> > > Rather

> > > > > > > > inquiry is on those things where there is some

element

> > of

> > > > > doubt.

> > > > > > In

> > > > > > > > Path of Devotion (bhakti maarg), faith and belief

that

> > is

> > > > free

> > > > > of

> > > > > > > > all doubts is primary and in the path of jnana

> > (knowledge,

> > > > > > inquiry

> > > > > > > > into the Truth) some doubt / uncertainty is

paramount.

> > By

> > > > > > combining

> > > > > > > > faith and inquiry - a sadhak's (spiritual aspirant's)

> > life

> > > > > does

> > > > > > not

> > > > > > > > remain pure, it becomes impure.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > In what do we have faith? In that which we have no

> > > knowledge

> > > > of

> > > > > > > > with our sense organs and inner faculties, we may or

> may

> > > not

> > > > > have

> > > > > > > > faith in that. There are only two points - either you

> > have

> > > > > faith,

> > > > > > > > or you don't have faith. Whether God exists or not,

> this

> > > > point

> > > > > is

> > > > > > > > not one of belief, it is one of an inquiring seeker.

> (to

> > be

> > > > > > > > continued)

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > From " Saadhan, Sudhaa, Sindhu " in Hindi pg. 706 by

> Swami

> > > > > > > > Ramsukhdasji.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Ram Ram

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > GUIDELINES FOR POSTING A RESPONSE:

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > 1. The group is focused on the Holy Gitaji,

therefore,

> > only

> > > > > > > > responses which further clarify the understanding of

> > > Gitaji,

> > > > > will

> > > > > > > be

> > > > > > > > posted.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > 2. Making reference of Gitaji shloka is highly

> > encouraged -

> > >

> > > > at

> > > > > > > least

> > > > > > > > once in the response. Wherever possible, please

quote

> > > > Gitaji

> > > > > or

> > > > > > > > other scriptures to substantiate your response.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > 3. Please be as concise and to the point as possible,

> > > > > respecting

> > > > > > > > sadhaka's time. Under no circustance the answer

should

> > > > exceed

> > > > > say

> > > > > > > > one page at the most (500 words or so).

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > 4. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs

> > etc.

> > > to

> > > > > the

> > > > > > > > extent that they further help in understanding the

Gita

> > > > shlokas

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand

> only.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or

> > other

> > > > > > > > organizations.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > 7. Complete reproduction of texts from any book is

> > strongly

> > > > > > > > discouraged, however references may be made of the

> book

> > > or

> > > > > > author

> > > > > > > > (but not links to other sites).

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > 8. Kindly do not include your personal information

such

> > as

> > > > > phone

> > > > > > > > number, address etc.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > 9. Please do not address the response to a particular

> > > > > individual

> > > > > > > > since the message is going to the entire group.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > 10. Due to the large readership, only those responses

> > will

> > > be

> > > > > > > posted

> > > > > > > > which are in line with the general philosophy of

taking

> > > > Shrimad

> > > > > > > > Bhagavad Gita as the reference.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > 11. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the

> posting,

> > if

> > > > > > > content

> > > > > > > > is unclear for distribution or not directly related

to

> > the

> > > > > > > question

> > > > > > > > being asked.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > 12. Please respond taking into consideration the

> > novices,

> > > > > youth,

> > > > > > > > westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the

> use

> > > of

> > > > > only

> > > > > > > > Sanskrit words, rather provide the English word with

> > > Sanskrit

> > > > > > > > bracketed wherever possible.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > MODERATOR

> > > > > > > > Ram Ram

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Jai Shri Krishna,

 

Bhakta (devotee with faith, lover of God) is not some sort of

brainless person. He also has a mind. Now the fact that he has a mind

does not mean he is taking shelter of Jnana Yoga (Discipline of

Knowledge) or it does not mean that Bhakti (faith and devotion) is

dependent or needs help of Jnana Yoga. They are independent by all

means.

 

Jnana (Laukik or being of this world) and Bhakti (Alaukik or

transcendental) are independent means of realizing Parmaatma. Just as

Parmaatma takes care of all the needs of a Bhakta (Yogkshema

Vahamiaham – Gita 9:22), similarly He gives equanimity and Jnana to

the completely devoted loving Bhakta (irrespective of the fact that

such Bhakta does not desire the same and there is nothing left to be

got by such Bhakta) – (Gyandeepen Bhaswata – Gita 10:11). This is

again confirmed in Gita 14:26, 11:54, 13:10. Jnani can be devoid of

Bhakti, but Bhakt CANNOT be devoid of Jnana (`Mam Darshan Phal Param

Anoopa, Jiva Paav Nij Sahaja Saroopa' – Manas). The Gopis did not

read any scriptures, nor they did any Satsang nor they performed any

austerities, fasting etc., STILL they had special Jnana that all is

Krishna (Vasudevah Sarvam)..

 

Bhakti is FAR FAR FAR superior to Jnana. Just as if you come to know

that this is a watch, then with this Jnana your ignorance about the

watch is removed and you will be happy. But if you develop a desire

(Laalsa) to get that watch then what – you will experience an

altogether special joy feeling upon receiving the watch. Similarly,

Bhakti (where you experience infinite Prem for Parmaatma, which keeps

on increasing continuously) is special (vilakshan) than Jnana.

 

It is possible to get Jnana or Mukti (liberation), even if you do not

believe in Parmaatma, BUT it is IMPOSSIBLE to get divine love for

Him, without being a Bhakta.

 

Patmaatma has given Viveka Jnana (Discrimination knowledge) to every

one, with which one can realize Him by rising above the worldly

things and develop divine love for Him. Parmaatma is Jnanaswaroop

Himself, therefore He does not crave for Jnana but craves for Prem

(Divine Love), Bhakti (Gita 12:14, 7:17, 9:34, 18:65, 18:66).

 

It not necessary that a one with Jnana (knowledge) will develop

Bhakti, but IT IS A RULE that a Bhakta (devotee) will get all Jnana

(knowledge).

 

On even a plain reading of Gitaji it becomes evident that Parmaatma

has clearly established independence of Jnana and Bhakti – while

declaring Bhakti far superior and dear to Him than Jnana.

 

`Mayyaveshya Mano ye Maam Nitya Yukta Upaaste, Shraddhya Paryopetaste

Me Yuktatama Mata' – Gita 12:2

 

Narayana Narayana

 

Rajendra J. Bohra

--

 

By combining faith (path of devotion) and inquiry (path of

knowledge) - sadhaka's life does not remain pure, it becomes impure?

Does this imply that a sadhaka cannot follow the path of devotion

and path of knowledge at the same time? Why should it make his life

impure? Are these paths exclusive of each other? Please clarify.

 

Subhash Madan

Ram Ram

 

This is a very valid objection … and yet remains the ultimate to

attain for any seeker. Perceivably, life is trifold – work,

knowledge and enjoyment. Anything related to motion of objects in

the physical space is generally catergorized as " action " (Karma).

Anything related to the thoughts in the mental space is

called " knowledge " (Gnyana). And, anything felt by an entity in

terms of desires, fears and their rise and fall within

is " experience " (Bhoga). Following is what I understand from these

three apparent compartments of my existence:

 

1. There is nothing bad or good in any one of them as such.

The " good " and " bad " are actually superimposed on each of these in

the domains alien to them … never in themselves.

2. They can never exist in isolation with reference to the rest

… rather, their existence is solely rooted in the other two domains.

3. They perpetually influence each other to be what they are.

 

Following is what I understand from Bhagavad Gita:

 

1. Karma Yoga: Purification of one's actions – removal of all

notions of bad and good in one's actions

2. Gnyana Yoga: Purification of one's thoughts – removal of all

notions of bad and good in one's thoughts.

3. Bhakti Yoga: Purification of one's experiences – removal of

all notions of bad and good in one's experiences.

 

Again, these three lakes of existence are perpetually interconnected

corrupting each other as well as correcting each other. Just like

the corruption anywhere spreads everywhere, correction also spreads

everywhere no matter we acknowledge it or not.

 

Therefore, The Correction (The Yoga) is ONE whether it starts in our

actions or in our thoughts or in our experiences. However, our

emphasis on these three legs of existence is lopsided – some are

infatuated with the body, some with the mind and some with their

desires. Accordingly, we have heaped up our tendencies (Vasanas) and

hyped up our identity (Aham). But, every individual is infested with

tendencies in all the three domains though they are apparent in one

of them depending on the domain in which the individual exists e.g.

nobody is dumb in all circumstances; one who feels dumb in one

environment may feel elated as smart in some other environment. The

corrective treatment to our fundamental corruption (Vasanas) is The

Yoga. Just like the corruption is a mixture of three elements, the

antidote has to be in the similar form – a mixture of Gnyana, Bhakti

and Karma. The cluster of tendencies – the desease – is unique to an

individual; and so should be the treatment. Apparently, the

prescriptions sound distinct … inherently, they are all the same.

Apparently an individual suffers in actions, thoughts and

experiences … but, inherently the individual suffers for only one

reason – NOT BEING ONESELF! Apparently, the practices prescribed and

adapted look very different … but, inherently all of them target the

same goal – TO BE ONESELF.

 

I agree with Swami Ramsukhdasji when he utters the potential impurity

in one's practice. We should appreciate what we are and adapt a

medicine that cures us in correct places. A wrong prescription –

VARNA SANKARA – is always misleading and often self-destructive. We

should understand what we are to correct ourselves. Borrowing

informations and actions cannot help us. In fact, they can make it

worse. We should always remember that we can only borrow

informations and actions … never the experience. Therefore, the

correction should be felt within. That can happen, only if the

corruption is felt within. One whose tendencies are to be dynamic in

life should not follow an ascetic's prescriptions or vice versa …

just because it sounds fancy! Clarity of distinctions of ones

problems in these apparently distinct domains of ignorance is a pre-

requisite. Unification of the three is eventual through proper

correction.

 

|| Swadharma nidhanam shreyah paradharmaat swanushthitaat ||

 

Respects.

 

Naga Narayana.

 

---

, " sadhak_insight "

<sadhak_insight wrote:

>

> Hari Om

>

> Beautiful Question indeed.

>

> Answer is that in Gita 7:16 to 7: 19 , the term " Jnani " essentially

> represents a Lover devotee (Bhakta) only as what is being discussed

> in these verses are " 4 types of Bhaktas " and nothing else. " Jnani "

> term is used for one of such four devotees who loves Paramatma. He

> is " Jnani Lover Bhakta " because he experiences that knowledge which

> in reality is the final, the real knowledge - " Vasudevah Sarvam " .

> The others love to remove pain (Aart) or worldly pleasures

> (Artharthi), or solution to a riddle (Jigyaasu). You have to see

> the context also while interpreting Gitaji. Then there are

> explanations/adjectives also in the same verses - " ek bhaktir

> vishishyate " , " nitya yuktanam " , " mamevaamanuttam gatim " which are

> essentially adjectives connected with a Bhakta (devotee) only and

> not with a Jnana Yogi or a Karma Yogi.

>

> Here such Bhakta has also been given status of " tvatmaiva " (verily

> my own self) by Krishna.. When you have reached as a lover, as a

> devotee, as a Bhakta to that stage - the knowledge falls at your

> lotus feet-begging for your attention. Even otherwise, one of the

> end results of all 3 Yogas is " acquisition of knowledge " . A Bhakta

> is not some sort of Idiot, as one may say comparing with a Jnani

> taking Jnana Yoga as a path. He is " daksha " (skillful- Gita 12:16)

> in his own right. Wherever reference of knowledge/intelligence/ mind

> comes, you can't exclude Bhakta out of the same. He has a brain,

> undoubtedly - only his focus " predominantly " is not knowledge, it is

> Paramatma.

>

> Thus use of term " Jnani " in Gita 7:16 to 7:19 does not make the

> Paths of Jnana Yoga and Bhakti Yoga dependent on each other. They

> are indeed " Independent Paths " - undoubtedly - in their own rights.

>

> It may be pointed out here that in Gita, the same term has been used

> at different places, in different contexts and they convey totally

> different meanings.

>

> Take for example the terms " Jnana " (Knowledge), " Jnani " (Knower)

> and " Jneya " (Knowable).

>

> The term " Jnana " has been used in Gitaji at least 55 times to convey

> 9 different meanings. The term " Jnani " or variation like " jnanawaan "

> has been used in Gitaji for at least 7 times to convey 5 different

> meanings and the the term " Jneya " has been used in Gitaji at least 4

> times to convey 2 different meanings. It all depends upon the

> contexts, the other adjectives associated in those verses etc to

> understand the true meaning.

>

> Here reference to a proper Treatise on Gitaji helps immensely. We in

> India are fortunate to have with us " Sadhak Sanjeevani " and " Gita

> Darpan " , written by Swamiji Shri Ramsukhdasji Maharaj, to refer to

> and remove such natural doubts.

>

> One can't truly understand Gitaji if he is reading it primiarly

> based on the proud of sharp intellect which he possesses. Then

> Gitaji becomes a riddle - the world's best riddle for him. Gitaji is

> a " mirror " - as is your attitude, so it looks. The best way to

> understand Gitaji is to put yourself in a surrendered mode and then

> read.

>

> The term " Jnani " has been used to mean " REALISED SOUL " in

> 3:33, " DISCRIMINATING ASPIRANT (viveki sadhak) in 3:39, LOVER BHAKTA

> in 7:16 to 19, KNOWER OF THE ESSENCE OF SCRIPTURES in 4:34 and

> KNOWLEDGEABLE IN SCRIPTURES in 6:46 !!

>

> The following is the complete list of 55 places and 9 different

> meanings of the term " Jnana " :-

>

> 1 Meaning - " GENERAL KNOWLEDGE " (9 times)

>

> Gita 3:32/9:12/10:38/14:1/14:6

> 18:18 to 21

>

> 2 Meaning - " KNOWLEDGE OF SCRIPTURES " ( 3 times)

>

> Gita 4:28/12:12/18:42

>

> 3 Meaning- " FIRM ACCEPTANCE " (3 times)

>

> Gita 4:10/7:2/9:1

>

> 4 Meaning - " SURRENDER " ( 1 time)

>

> Gita 18:63

>

> 5. Meaning- " DISCRIMINATION BETWEEN SAT ( Real) AND ASAT( Unreal) "

> ( 15 times)

>

> Gita 3:3/4:27/4:33/5:16/7:20/

> 9:15/10:4/13:2/13:34/14:9/14:11/14:17/15:10/15:15/18:50

>

> 6 Meaning - " DISCRIMINATION BETWEEN DUTY AND NON-DUTY " ( 6 times)

>

> Gita 3:39 to 41/4:41-42/6:8

>

> 7 Meaning - " FINAL ULTIMATE KNOWLEDGE ( Tattwa Jnana). ( 14 times)

>

> Gita 4:19/ 4:23/ 4:33 to 39/ 5:17/10:11/13:17/14:1-2/16:1

>

> 8 Meaning- " .METHODS OF JNANA YOGA " ( 3 times)

>

> Gita 13:11/13:17-18

>

> 9 Meaning - " STUDY OF SCRIPTURES " ( one time)

>

> Gita 18:70

>

> Hope the above clarifies the query fully.

>

> Jai Shree Krishna

>

> Vyas N B

>

> -------------------------------

> Shree Hari

> Ram Ram

>

> Swamiji has explained this in detail and clearly in the Sadhak

> Sanjivani.

>

> When one attains knowledge (Jnana), the error that has specific

> characteristics, is removed; i.e. even though the world is seen, the

> attraction for the world ends. But in " Devotion " (Bhakti), the error

> without characteristics is also removed; i.e. the World is not seen,

> only God is seen. " Vasudeva Sarvam " .

>

> In the Gita the true man of Wisdom (Jnani) is a devotee (Bhakt). The

> word Jnani has been used for a devotee and not for a man with

> knowledge. Everyone is independent to follow his or her path (Jnana,

> Karma or Bhakti). All the three paths leads to the same end. But on

> a comparison of the three, devotion (Bhakti) is the best. In bhakti

> you will automatically understand the other two, where as, it is not

> necessary that you will understand bhakti if you follow either Jnana

> or karma.

>

> The ultimate stage of devotion (Bhakti) is complete refuge in God

> (sharnagati). At the end of Jnana, you will understand Bhakti. This

> is only true if you do not criticise Bhakti. All the paths are

> equally important. You cannot and should not criticise any path. To

Lord Krishna even the banana was not as delicious as the banana peels

that Vidurani fed him with love and devotion. Devotion (bhakti)

> is the best spiritual discipline as expressed by Swamiji.

>

> Therefore with reference to Jnanis, God has acknowledged the Devotee

> (Bhakta) to be Supreme -

>

> " Mayya vaishya mano yeh maam, nitya yuktaa upaasate;

> Shraddhayaa parayopetaaste mein yuktatamaa mataah. " (Gita 12:2)

>

> " Those who, fixing their mind on Me, worship Me ever steadfast and

> are endowed with Supreme faith, are the most perfect Yogis in My

> opinion. " (Gita 12:2)

>

> Meera Das

> Ram Ram

> -------------------------------

> Shri Krishnah sharanam mama

>

> I think which marg (path) should be followed depends essentially on

> what a person desires to achieve ultimately. And what one desires

> depends on the three gunas (attributes- Satva, Rajas, Tamas) and

> sanskars (instincts) one has acquired or one possesses through one's

> innumerable births in the past (Gita 3.5, 13.21 etc). While it is

> true that all the paths take you somewhere, there are limits up to

> which you can go, or a particular marg can lead you up to. The Karma

> marg can at best get you the paradise (svarga loka), if you have

> done all punya. But Gita ( 9.21) says that after the punyas exhaust,

> a Jiva is thrown back into this mortal world again into the cycle of

> birth and death. The Gyan Marg will enable you to know the Self and

> the Consciousness. A follower of the highest order in the Gyan or

> Yog Marg can even transcend the cycle of birth and death (and attain

> Moksha), still the eternal Bliss of Bhagwan can not be achieved,

> until the web of Maya (illusion, Prakriti) is crossed. Those of the

> most enlightened Gyaanis and Yogis could attain Brahma Loka, but

> even up to this Loka, the domain of Maya pervades. Maya can be

> crossed over only and only when in Bhakti Marg, a devotee fully

> surrenders to Him and to Him alone (Gita 7.14), since He alone can

> influence, direct or wield His own power-Maya. A human can never

> become as powerful as Bhagwan to be able to cross over it through

> his own efforts, since Maya is Bhagwan's own power. Even

> Shankaracharya realized this, although he was an ardent follower and

> preacher of Gyan Marg and has said so in his Bhashya and advised his

> own mother to worship Shri Krishna.

>

> The followers of deities, gods, demigods etc. through Karma marg can

> attain whatever their gods can grant them within their powers. Shri

> Krishna will only be too glad to help in this cause (Gita 7.21).

> However the Superconsciousness, the Bliss and His abode could be

> only achieved through Bhakti Marg. An ardent follower of this Marg

> can also get all that which one can get through both Karma Marg and

> Gyan Marg, if he so desires. The converse is not true. But a

> follower of Bhakti Marg does not seek these things. His goal is much

> higher. It is not materialistic, but spiritual. The process of both

> Karma Marg and the knowledge/Gyan Marg is to know the truth,

> reality, Jiva, Soul etc. but these will lead a follower up to a

> certain limit only. Beyond this, if they have to transcend the

> bondage of Maya or to strive to be able to attain Bhagwan, the

> knowledge (gyan) has to first vanquish ignorance and thereafter

> should itself dissolve. The sense of doership/I-ness should vanish

> since the karma and gyan both are acquired by a person through own

> efforts and will invariably bring that feeling in the sub-conscious

> mind. Later, only the Bhakti marg and 'atma-samarpana' (complete

> surrender) can lead to Bhagwatprapti (God realisation).

>

> Regards.

>

> K.N. Sharma

>

> --------------------------------

> , " sadhak_insight "

> <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> >

> > Namaste,

> >

> > There are a couple of verses in the Bhagvad Gita in Chapter VII -

> 16

> > and 17, which begin with " Chaturvidha Bhajante Maam " ... etc.

> >

> > Essentially these two verses say " There are 4 types of Bhaktas -

> The

> > one who is in distress (some pain or trouble), The one who is

> > seeking after material success (wealth, power etc.), The one who

> is

> > seeking after God Knowledge and the one who already knows (Jnani).

> > Of these 4 types of Bhaktas, The Jnani (The wise one), who is in

> > ever constant union with the divine, whose devotion is single

> > minded, is the bext of them all. I am supremely dear to him, and

> he

> > is supremely dear to Me.

> >

> > The inter-connection between Jnana and Bhakti, is being

> irrevocably

> > established by Shri Krishna himself, it seems to me in these two

> > verses. I wonder how you would reconcile these verses with the

> view

> > that Bhakta and Jnana are entirely separate paths etc ?

> >

> > Kalyan Viswanathan

> >

> >

-

> > Dear Sadak,

> > Path of Devotion is you- Path of knwledge is your shadow. As long

> as

> > you think shadow and you are differant than confusion.

> > B.Sathyanarayan

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > , " sadhak_insight "

> > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Shree Hari

> > > Ram Ram

> > >

> > > After reading the responses below, if there are no further

> > doubts , regarding the question posed by Subhashji, we bring this

> > question to a closure to pursue a new topic for discussion.

> > > From Gita Talk Moderator

> > > Ram Ram

> > >

> > >

> > > Subhashji's Question:

> > > Regarding combining faith (path of devotion) and inquiry (path

> of

> > knowledge) - sadhaka's life does not remain pure, it becomes

> > > impure? Does this imply that a sadhaka cannot follow the path of

> > > devotion and path of knowledge at the same time? Why should it

> > > make his life impure? Are these paths exclusive of each other?

> > Please

> > > clarify.

> > > Subhash Madan

> > >

> > > ------------------------------

> > > -Shree Hari-

> > > I found Rajendra J Bohra comments most interesting.

> > >

> > > I often thought how did this journey start?(In my case that is).

> > > Something like this; Does what I am being taught of spiritual

> > matters

> > > hold up to deep thought NO!

> > > Do I feel that these 'Holy' texts agree NO!

> > > Do I have blind faith No!

> > > Am I afraid to stand alone NO!

> > > Does science have all the answers, in fact does science agree

NO!

> > > This process , goes on for decades .

> > > Then a change starts to occur sometimes mixed with NO responses.

> > > Something like this; OK if science stumbles over the source of

> > > existence, then where are the answers?

> > > Right let me see now, if at the very deepest quantum level all

> > > matter is energy vibration, and some scientist believe all

> > existence

> > > comes in and out of reality at a high frequency, does any

> religion

> > > deal with such things.

> > > Many more questions of course, but then my head started to look

> > > towards 'Eastern Wisdom'.

> > > Because it seemed to deal with the things I had experienced, the

> > > things I had learned and unlearned.

> > > And now to the Bhagavad Gita. Does it vibrate with truth and

> the

> > > Sacred YES!

> > >

> > > With Respect and Divine Love

> > >

> > > Mike

> > > (Mike Keenor)

> > > -------------------------------

-

> --

> > -

> > > Hari Om

> > >

> > > I fully agree with Sadhak Rajendraji.

> > >

> > > Every Yoga ultimately drives the aspirant towards -

> " disconnection

> > > with the world " . As soon as disconnection takes place , eternal

> > > connection with Paramatma comes into realisation, into

> > experience !!

> > >

> > > That is why Paramatma is always " realised/attained " not " got " .

> You

> > > remember/recollect your an already existing eternal connection

> > > with Paramatma (smartir labdha- I have now

> remembered/recollected-

> > > Gita 18 :73 - last words of Arjuna)

> > >

> > > A Bhakta starts his spiritual journey with the outlook-

> > >

> > > " I am of the Paramatma. He only is mine and nothing else is

> mine. "

> > >

> > > He surrenders and/or does every action only in relation with

> > > Paramatma, gets wholly dependent on Him and very soon starts

> > > realising that all others around him are as good of Paramatma as

> is

> > > he himself. Then the world disappears for him. He sees Paramatma

> > > everywhere. Friendliness and compassion enter his attitude

> > > naturally. He in the end " attains " (realises) love of

> Paramatma.

> > He

> > > becomes " indivisible " with Him. He has nothing to attain

> (realise)

> > > now.

> > >

> > > A Jnana Yogi starts his journey with the outlook -

> > >

> > > " I am not body. Nothing is mine. I don't need anything "

> > >

> > > He then with the help of inquiry and doubt keeps on feeling -

> > > " neti " " neti " - not this , not this - and in the end when

> entire

> > > world and the body by his enquiries get negated as not him, not

> for

> > > him, different than him, he gets disconnected with the world.

> > > Egolessness, desirelessness, non-attachment with family,

> isolation,

> > > meditation (Dhyaan Yoga / Raaj Yoga) etc quite naturally become

> > part

> > > of his attitude. He then says " yes " only in respect of truth

> > > (satsanga, Good Scriptures, Paramatma, that element which does

> not

> > > change, and of course " SELF " ) ! ! What remains thereafter is

> > SELF ,

> > > which he considers as Paramatma. (Aham Brahmasmi- I am Brahma).

> He

> > > becomes equal to Paramatma. He has nothing left to know now.

> > >

> > > A Karma Yogi starts his spiritual journey with the outlook -

> > >

> > > " I am Yogi. I am a servant and a debtor to the World.. I have to

> do

> > > my duty. I don't have to do anything for myself. I have to serve

> > the

> > > world "

> > >

> > > He thus honestly returns whatever he has got/gets from the world

> by

> > > way of service/his duty, including his body.(By Karmas). He does

> > > Karmas always for others, never for himself. Charity,

> > unselfishness,

> > > dutifulness, renunciation (tyaag) etc become part of his

> attitude.

> > > His old debts get repaid and as he has not expected anything in

> > > return, no new debts are incurred. Having become debt free, in

> the

> > > end, he gets disconnected with the world- because his connection

> > > with world was contractual arising out of Karmas done

> > for " himself " .

> > > In the end he gets established into Equanimity. He becomes

> nearest

> > > to Paramatma (who is also Equanimous like him). He has nothing

> to

> > do

> > > now.

> > >

> > > Jai Shree Krishna

> > >

> > > Vyas N B

> > >

> > > -------------------------------

-

> --

> > -

> > > , " sadhak_insight "

> > > sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Jai Shri Krishna,

> > >

> > > I agree with Sadhak Sathyanarainji. Knowledge comes later on.

> > >

> > > " Knowledge " in fact in case of all 3 yogas comes as an end

> result

> > > upon accomplishment of Yoga- and not before. " Knowledge " , in

> > > spiritual and Gita terminology is not information, it is that

> > > element after knowing which nothing remains to be known. It

> > > satiates/extinguishes the very desire in you - " to know

> something "

> > > You have known everthing.

> > >

> > > It goes without saying that the moment doubt comes, the faith

> > > extinguishes. The terms are 100 percent opposite to each other.

> > > Just as darkness and Sun can't remain together- so is the case

> > between faith and doubt. If you have doubt, where is Faith? If you

> > have faith , where is the question of doubt? Both can't remain

> > together.

> > >

> > > It is also a fact that advent of knowledge about anything

> destroys

> > > at that moment itself the faith pertaining to that thing- just

as

> > > advent of sun rays instantly destroys darkness . Where is the

> > > question of faith when express knowledge is available?

Therefore

> > > the faith is always placed in respect of that thing about which

> > > knowledge is not available.

> > >

> > > Belief in fact is one of the only 3 powers which a human being

> has

> > > got. It is not an ordinary thing. In fact Gita has allocated one

> > > entire chapter on belief only!

> > > Another thing to be kept in mind is that these ways have

> > > thoroughly independent and vastly different means /

> methodologies/

> > processes. It is like one starting journey towards west and

> another

> > towards east.

> > > Since the world is round they meet in the end !

> > >

> > > A Bhakta starts his journey by changing his Aham ( Ego) from " I

> > > am of the world. World is mine " to " I am of Paramatma. Only

> > > Paramatma is mine. Nothing else is mine "

> > >

> > > Now this is an established Truth. Irrespective of whether you

> have

> > > faith or not, you are of Him, Only He is yours and nothing else

> is

> > > yours. Now if you doubt this, established truth itself, where

> > > will you reach? You will only drive your self towards false

hood.

> > >

> > > Therefore Swamiji told never mix doubt with faith. It will make

> > > you impure ! !

> > >

> > > Paramatma is beyond knowledge. A Jnana Yogi has nothing to do

> with

> > > Paramatma at the start of his journey. His goal is SELF. Now in

> > > that goal you must have doubt. Is body mine? Doubt. Answer- No!

> Is

> > > world mine? Doubt. Answer -No! Is body me? Doubt. Answer-No! Do

I

> > > need anything for myself? Doubt. Answer-No.....and so on.

> > >

> > > Now if you mix faith here, where will you reach? How will you

> > > acquire knowledge, if you are acting on faith? A Jnana Yogi is

> > > more sterner than a scientist in his attitude. He can't

> establish

> > into SELF otherwise.

> > >

> > > Therefore Swamiji told never mix faith in doubt(means of

> acquiring

> > > knowledge). It will make your life impure.

> > >

> > > Narayana Narayana

> > >

> > > Rajendra J Bohra

> > >

> > > ------------------------------

-

> --

> > > > , " sadhak_insight "

> > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > Hari Om

> > > > >

> > > > > Example given by Sadhak Manmohanji may not be applicable in

> > this

> > > > > case. In Bhakti the belief never gets broken - because it is

> > > about

> > > > > established truth - " I am of the God and only God is mine " .

> In

> > > > > Bhakti, an aspirant never has to find a dead end and he can

> > > never

> > > > > return wondering if he needs help of knowledeable person to

> > > > > supplement. Bhakti Yoga is path in itself. Here the Laws

> made

> > by

> > > > > Lord Himself ensure that there are no obstacles on the path.

> > > Refer

> > > > > Gita 9:22- here Lord declares , " yogakshemam vahamyaham "

> which

> > > > > means " I shall make available whatever is necessary for

> > > aspirant

> > > > to

> > > > > accomplish his yoga " . Infallible laws start operating with

> your

> > > > > reference, as soon as, you take path of devotion. Another

law

> > > > which

> > > > > becomes operational is stated in Gita 7:21. Here Krishna

> takes

> > > > > responsibilty of " strengthening the belief " of the believer.

> > > Your

> > > > > belief will keep on strengthening.

> > > > >

> > > > > There was a shortage of conviction and belief in the person

> > > > > returning after seeing dead end. THERE WAS AN ELEMENT OF

> DOUBT

> > > IN

> > > > > HIM. He in fact had already mixed doubt in his belief when

he

> > > set

> > > > > out and when he returned. Unfortunately in his case the

> belief

> > > was

> > > > > not exactly the same as was the established truth (which is

> > the

> > > > > case with Bhakta) and there was nobody who took

> responsibilty

> > as

> > > > it

> > > > > is in case of Bhakta under Gita 9:22.

> > > > >

> > > > > Since he mixed doubt in his belief, therefore he has now

> become

> > > > > dependent on knowledge. Otherwise when he started his

> journey,

> > > he

> > > > > was all alone. So impurity has come in his path.

> > > > >

> > > > > The person having map with complete instructions, topography

> of

> > > > the

> > > > > mountain, complete grasp of the path and comprehensive

> overview

> > > of

> > > > > the obstacles did not have confidence in his knowledge. He

> > might

> > > > > have mixed some beliefs already in his knowledge when he

> firmed

> > > up

> > > > > the topography, map, instructions, overview etc.- Which only

> > can

> > > > > result in his lack of confidence. He is in difficulty now.

> His

> > > > life

> > > > > has become impure. He now is dependent upon faith. He is not

> > > sure

> > > > > whether he will reach to the top. Otherwise when he started

> > > making

> > > > > maps etc. he was all alone. Need was only of the knowledge

> > > > acquired

> > > > > by method of " doubting " .

> > > > >

> > > > > Such a situation does not arise in case of Bhakti Yogi at

> > least -

> > >

> > > > > for the reasons stated above.. Moreover Karma Yoga (KY),

> Jnana

> > > > Yoga

> > > > > (JY) and Bhakti Yoga ( BY) are independent paths, complete

> in

> > > > > themselves.

> > > > >

> > > > > But in the end they give same results by and large. In case

> of

> > > > > Bhakti however an aspirant gets Love of God additionally.

> > > > Otherwise

> > > > > all three get you -

> > > > >

> > > > > (i) Early accomplishment ( ref for KY Gita 5:6, for JY

> 4:39,

> > > for

> > > > > BY 12:7),

> > > > > (ii) Destruction of sins( KY 4:23, JY4:36/37 BY 18:66)

> > > > > (iii) Contentment (KY 2:55,3:17, JY 6:20, BY 10:9,12:14)

> > > > > (iv) Peace ( KY 2:71,5:12, JY 4:39, BY 6:15,9:31)

> > > > > (v) Equanimity ( KY 4:22, JY6:29, 14:24 BY 10:10)

> > > > > (vi) Knowledge ( KY 4:38, JY 13:34,BY 10:11) and

> > > > > (vii) Purification of inner sense/bliss and pleasure (KY

> > 2:64,JY

> > > > > 18:54 , BY 6:14) etc.

> > > > >

> > > > > However many learned sadhaks have quite rightly felt that

> there

> > > > may

> > > > > be a need of taking simultaneous paths also. I do not see

any

> > > > thing

> > > > > wrong with the same except what Swamiji has stated re:

> mixing

> > of

> > > > > belief in doubt, and of doubt in belief. That does create

> > > > > difficulties in pursuing the JY with BY.

> > > > >

> > > > > In fact in Gita also, at many places, in case of certain

> > > > > qualities / features overlapping has been noticed among

> these 3

> > > > > yogas ..

> > > > >

> > > > > In KY, for example - Gita 2:61/3:30/5:10 are basically from

> BY

> > > and

> > > > > 5:7 is quality of JY. Similarly in JY - Gita 5:24/12:4

> quality

> > > of

> > > > > engagement in welfare of all creatures is from KY and

> features

> > > > > stated in 13:10/14:26 are from BY.

> > > > > In BY - Gita 12:11/18:46 qualities are of KY and 15:5/7:29

> some

> > > > > qualities stated in them are from JY.

> > > > >

> > > > > Hope this clarifies the queries fully.

> > > > >

> > > > > Jai Shree Krishna

> > > > >

> > > > > Vyas N B

> > > > >

> > > > > ---------------------------

-

> --

> > -

> > > > > Dear Sadak,

> > > > > Path of pure devotion in sorrow or happiness leads to path

of

> > > > > knowledge.

> > > > > Example: Ramana Rishi was teenage without much education.

> > > Devotion

> > > > > gave abundant knowledge. He could quote any thing from 108

> > > > > Upanashids.

> > > > > Recently Valalar near Chennai wrote wonderful scripts. He

was

> > > much

> > > > > educated. Valmiki was a thief. Only Ram Nam gave knowledge

to

> > > > write

> > > > > Srimath Ramayan.

> > > > > B.Sathyanarayan

> > > > > ---------------------------

-

> --

> > --

> > > > > Bhakti Marg, Gyana Marg, Yoga Marg or Karma Marg - they can

> all

> > > > > jointly or severally lead to our Creator. What is to be

> avoided

> > > in

> > > > > all these paths is Adharma (unrighteousness). 'Rah pakad tu

> ek

> > > > > chalachal, pa jaiga Madhushala'

> > > > > Please notice, M of Madhushala is capital.

> > > > >

> > > > > Dr. Jagdish Shama

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > ---------------------------

-

> --

> > -

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > , " sadhak_insight "

> > > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Imagine two persons standing at the foot of a hill who

> want

> > to

> > > > go

> > > > > to

> > > > > > a Shiva temple, which is at the peak of the mountain. One

> has

> > > a

> > > > > map

> > > > > > with complete instructions and the topography of the

> > mountain.

> > > > He

> > > > > > studies the map over and over and has complete grasp of

the

> > > path

> > > > > and

> > > > > > the obstacles he is going to face on his journey. But he

> does

> > > > not

> > > > > > have the faith in himself if he can climb the mountain.

All

> > > type

> > > > > of

> > > > > > doubts come in his mind and he stays at the foot of the

> > temple

> > > > > > thinking if should start or not, if he will be able to

> make

> > it

> > > > to

> > > > > > the top or not.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The other has complete faith in himself and is ready to

> start

> > > > and

> > > > > is

> > > > > > sure to reach the top, but has no directions. He travels

> few

> > > > > hundred

> > > > > > yards and sees a dead end and comes back. He is at loss

and

> > > can

> > > > > not

> > > > > > judge as which path is the right for him

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Then both of them talk to each other and with the faith

and

> > > > > > encouragement of the one and knowledge of the other ,

both

> > > > reach

> > > > > > the summit.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > When they were at the summit, the only thing, which

> mattered,

> > > > was

> > > > > > that both were in the temple of God and were immersed in

> His

> > > > > bliss.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > It is not correct to separate these paths, as both are

> > > essential

> > > > > for

> > > > > > the ultimate goal.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Also the second reason why they should be practiced

> together

> > > is

> > > > > that

> > > > > > one path acts as an antidote for the weakness of the other

> > > > path .

> > > > > > Practicing the path of knowledge has tendency to enhance

> the

> > > > ego,

> > > > > so

> > > > > > the path of faith, which teaches submission, counters it.

> > > > > Similarly

> > > > > > path of faith has a tendency to create blind faith, and

> path

> > > of

> > > > > > knowledge helps it to stay on the right course.

> > > > > > Although various great teachers like Shankra, Chaitanya

(or

> > > > > > Prabhupad) , and B G Tilak have interpreted Gita to suite

> > > their

> > > > > > thinking and say Gita is nothing but Gian yoga, or Bhakti

> > yoga

> > > > or

> > > > > > Karam yoga , Lord Krishna has emphasized to pursue all the

> > > paths

> > > > > to

> > > > > > keep it in balance.

> > > > > > When one has achieved the goal and has merged in Him, all

> > > these

> > > > > > variations disappear.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Manmohan Sehgal

> > > > > > -------------------------

-

> --

> > --

> > > --

> > > > --

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Dear Sadaks,

> > > > > > This combing does not come to one`s intellect if one has

> not

> > > > made

> > > > > > sufficient practice on spritual life in earlier birth. We

> can

> > > > see

> > > > > > many people next to us does not care even to listen

> > devotional

> > > > > songs

> > > > > > when we play. This body equipment is result of our earlier

> > > > karmas

> > > > > > and desires. So if one has sincerly attempted spritual

path

> > > and

> > > > > lead

> > > > > > divine life in his previous birth he automatically gets

> > desire

> > > > to

> > > > > > continue in this birth. Many of us know what is Vasana.

> > Vasana

> > > > can

> > > > > > be divine or worldly. Earlier birth vasana be divine then

> it

> > > > > > contiues in present birth. This is combing.

> > > > > > Buddha did combing as to why aging, death, disease etc.

HIS

> > > > > brother

> > > > > > in law Devadatha was with Buddha for 13 years. But just

> > before

> > > > > > Buddha life to end Devadatha was claiming Buddha position.

> > How

> > > > > many

> > > > > > of us question ourselves, " My end is going to be the same

> as

> > > > that

> > > > > > of a minister or begger- same cremation/burial- what

> happens

> > > > next-

> > > > > > am I not wasting time seeing things around me and not

> > > forsaking

> > > > > > attachment " . This comes in mind to us like a flash, then

> back

> > > to

> > > > > > world. Only Adi Sanakara, Buddha, Puranderdas, Tukaram,

> > > Thirupan

> > > > > > Alwar can think. Body is the same composition for all. It

> is

> > > > > > previous strong Vasana/Desire in divinity that contiues.

> > > > > > B.Sathyanarayan

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > -------------------------

-

> --

> > --

> > > --

> > > > --

> > > > > >

> > > > > > , " sadhak_insight "

> > > > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Hari Om

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Here the meaning is to state that Bhakti and Jnana Yoga

> are

> > > > > > > independent paths. In jnana yoga the doubt is essence in

> > > your

> > > > > > quest.

> > > > > > > Because there is curiosity in your mind for search of

the

> > > > truth.

> > > > > > > That curiosity in fact later on leads you to the truth.

> > Once

> > > > > your

> > > > > > > quest is over, and you realise the truth then you

> > naturally

> > > > > start

> > > > > > > believing. But in Bhakti Yoga , the very doubt is not

> > > > > acceptable.

> > > > > > > You have to have total belief. Because there the devotee

> > > > starts

> > > > > > with

> > > > > > > a mind set that his belief is truthful and in reality

> > that

> > > > is

> > > > > > > truth only. In fact both Jnana Yoga and Karma Yoga

> are " of

> > > > this

> > > > > > > world " pursuits - they are in relation to the world and

> > > hence

> > > > > they

> > > > > > > are called " laukik " . In these two, disconnection with

> world

> > > > > > becomes

> > > > > > > the result in the end. What remains there after is

> eternal

> > > > > > > connection with Paramatma only. Even otherwise the

> > > Paramatma

> > > > is

> > > > > > > connected with you..Bhakti Yoga is " alaukik " – " out of

> this

> > > > > > world, "

> > > > > > > divine path. Here you start with reality itself, that is

> > > > > > connection

> > > > > > > with Paramatma. Then the disconnection with the world

> > > becomes

> > > > > > > automatic.. Even otherwise the world is disconnecting

> with

> > > > you!

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > If you are curious, then blind faith makes you " impure "

> > > (not

> > > > > > > impious)- ashuddha. Doubt is in essence, there. Because

> > > > > otherwise

> > > > > > > you get into a dilemma. Similarly, when you have chosen

> > > path

> > > > of

> > > > > > > devotion, then any doubt makes your sadhna (striving)

> > > impure.

> > > > > > There

> > > > > > > is no place for doubt in Bhakti Yoga. Belief is essence

> > > there.

> > > > > Any

> > > > > > > way , here the hindi word used was " asuddha " (impure,

> > > > > adulterated,

> > > > > > > not exactly precise, confusing) and it does not mean "

> > > > apavitra "

> > > > > > > (impious, sinful). If your goal is Paramatma or quest

for

> > > > truth

> > > > > > you

> > > > > > > never become impious. In the process adopted by you an

> > > > impurity,

> > > > > > an

> > > > > > > inappropriateness, an imperfection comes, if you mix

> doubt

> > > in

> > > > > > belief

> > > > > > > or belief in curiosity.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Jai Shree Krishna

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Vyas N B

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > -----------------------

-

> --

> > --

> > > --

> > > > --

> > > > > -

> > > > > >

> > > > > > > Loving Divine,

> > > > > > > Pranam.

> > > > > > > I agree that we are a mixture of bhakti (devotion),

gyaan

> > > > > > > (knowledge), karma (right action), dhyaan (yoga-

> > > meditation).

> > > > > > > Usually that's how we start. We have doubts, questions

> to

> > > be

> > > > > > > clarified, etc. so we use gyaan yoga. But what Swamiji

> is

> > > > > saying

> > > > > > > when one is truly surrendered, no doubt/question arises

> in

> > > > > > devotee's

> > > > > > > mind because true devotee is completely dependent on God

> > and

> > > > the

> > > > > > > attitude is whatever God does, He knows what is best for

> me

> > > so

> > > > > > there

> > > > > > > is no question or doubt or objection or desire to change

> > the

> > > > > > > situation arising in him/her. This is a true state of

> > > > bhakti.

> > > > > > But

> > > > > > > if you have questions or doubts need to be resolved, if

> you

> > > > > think

> > > > > > > why me God, or if you pray to change the present

> situation

> > > or

> > > > > > > object, it is not true bhakti because you have not

> > > surrendered

> > > > > > > completely yet to God and finding answers require

> enquiry,

> > > so

> > > > it

> > > > > > is

> > > > > > > gyaan yoga. When one is questioning, objection,

> enquiring,

> > > > one

> > > > > is

> > > > > > > not truly surrendered and when one is all stops! Do you

> > see

> > > > the

> > > > > > > subtle difference between them? When we start, we are

> like

> > > > baby

> > > > > > > monkey - I am holding on to my Mother (Divine) while She

> > > jumps

> > > > > > from

> > > > > > > one place to other. We trust Her but still it is I who

> is

> > > > > holding

> > > > > > > on - the subtle ego remains. In the other case -

> bhakta,

> > on

> > > > the

> > > > > > > contrary is a person like a kitten. Where ever my

Mother

> > > > takes

> > > > > me

> > > > > > > She is the one who has to carry me and I am always happy

> in

> > > > > where

> > > > > > > ever she takes me.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Hope this helps...

> > > > > > > humble regards,

> > > > > > > always at Thy Divine Feet

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Manjula Patel

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > -----------------------

-

> --

> > --

> > > --

> > > > --

> > > > > --

> > > > > > -

> > > > > > > , " sadhak_insight "

> > > > > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Dear Sadhak,

> > > > > > > > Bhakti (companionship, togetherness of those in

similar

> > > inner

> > > > > > > > feeling or swabhaav) and Jnana (awareness of the

> current

> > > > > > position

> > > > > > > of

> > > > > > > > one's inner nature or swabhaav) and Karma (activity of

> > > > > > correction

> > > > > > > or

> > > > > > > > improvement in the inner and innate nature or swbhaav)

> > can

> > > > > lead

> > > > > > to

> > > > > > > > Yoga (truth). This paradigm of Bhakti yoga, Jnana yoga

> > and

> > > > > Karma

> > > > > > > > yoga are terms of critical understanding of the

Bhagwat

> > > Gita

> > > > > > > > techniques.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > If one is going from Delhi to Mumbai, the path or

> railway

> > > > > route

> > > > > > is

> > > > > > > > equivalent of Dharma, but different milestones

> specifying

> > > > > > location

> > > > > > > > of inner nature, characteristics, temperament

> (swabhaav)

> > > > > across

> > > > > > the

> > > > > > > > journey. Bhakti is companionship or right train which

> if

> > > > > > correctly

> > > > > > > > decided, will take one to Mumbai whether or not one is

> > > aware

> > > > of

> > > > > > > > various locations and limited activity. Thus, bhakti

> can

> > > be

> > > > a

> > > > > > short

> > > > > > > > cut of jnana and karma. In another way, a man can go

> from

> > > > > Delhi

> > > > > > to

> > > > > > > > Mumbai alone, and is full of activity, and discovers

> the

> > > > > Mumbai.

> > > > > > > > Here, bhakti is not feasible but, jnana and karma are

> > > > together

> > > > > is

> > > > > > > > success.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Swabhaav (inner nature, characteristics) is

> transformed

> > in

> > > a

> > > > > > step

> > > > > > > by

> > > > > > > > step process, and this is purpose of activity and

> > > > awareness.

> > > > > > > Bhakti is simpler way and one can avoid tapah

> (austerities)

> > > > > which

> > > > > > > the discoverer like Krishna, Buddha had toiled. It is

> very

> > > > much

> > > > > > like

> > > > > > > any other set of subjects, like Physics, high school

> > student

> > > > > knows

> > > > > > > the ideas of Newton without spending lifetime, and this

> > > > > > facilitation

> > > > > > > is Bhakti.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Bhagwat Gita is knowledge of transformation of ones'

> > > > swabhaav

> > > > > > > (inner nature and tendencies). Whatever be the starting

> > > > point;

> > > > > by

> > > > > > > continued practice, awareness and companionship of right

> > > kind,

> > > > > > goal

> > > > > > > is achieved sooner than later.

> > > > > > > > Best regards

> > > > > > > > K G Misra

> > > > > > > > (Krishna Gopal)

> > > > > > > > ---------------------

-

> --

> > --

> > > --

> > > > --

> > > > > --

> > > > > > --

> > > > > > > > Priy Sadhaka,

> > > > > > > > As far as I perceived from Swamiji, Knowledge is

> received

> > > by

> > > > > > Buddhi

> > > > > > > > (intellect) which is part of JADA Prakruti (Limited,

> > Inert

> > > > > > Nature).

> > > > > > > > It can not know limitlessness. Therefore on the path

of

> > > > > > knowledge,

> > > > > > > we feel incomplete (rather a very subtle form of ego

> > > remains).

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > In MANAS Goswamiji wrote in Uttarkand that One who is

> > > > > intelligent

> > > > > > > > follows the path of devotion. Swamiji also wrote in

> > Sadhak

> > > > > > > > Sanjivani : Even after getting absolute knowledge, one

> > > still

> > > > > > longs

> > > > > > > for love of God, whereas devotee from the very beginning

> > > > (first

> > > > > > > step) develops love and relationship with God. So the

> > > devotee

> > > > > is

> > > > > > > considered to be a Gyani (intelligent). Bhagwan Sri

> Krishna

> > > > also

> > > > > > > told in Geetaji : Gyani (Premi) Bhakt is my most

beloved.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Hope this helps,

> > > > > > > > Thanks,

> > > > > > > > Raja

> > > > > > > > (Raja Gurdasani)

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > ---------------------

-

> --

> > --

> > > --

> > > > --

> > > > > --

> > > > > > > > Namaste.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Vivekanand said: Science without faith is dangerous,

> > Faith

> > > > > > without

> > > > > > > science is blind.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Based on Geetaji...

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Faith (Bhakti) without Knowledge is blind.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Knowledge (Gyan) without Faith in God is only

> > > superficial /

> > > > > > > material.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > We need both for spiritual progress (Ego to Atma) like

> > two

> > > > > > wheels

> > > > > > > of a bicycle:

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Faith (Buddhi) to guide us in the right direction

> towards

> > > > God

> > > > > > > (front wheel).

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Knowledge (Mind) to understand the nature of God (back

> > > > wheel).

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Additionally Karmayog provides the energy to ride and

> > > > Dhyanyog

> > > > > > to

> > > > > > > keep us straight.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Our Guruji once said these four Yog are like the four

> > legs

> > > > of

> > > > > a

> > > > > > > chair to sit on for each of us.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Maybe these are like the four wheels of a car (kar) to

> > > move

> > > > us

> > > > > > > from Ahamkar to Omkar.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Hope this clarifies the points raised in this

> discussion.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Dr BalMukund Bhala

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > ---------------------

-

> --

> > --

> > > --

> > > > --

> > > > > --

> > > > > > -

> > > > > > > > , " sadhak_insight "

> > > > > > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Clarification Sadhaka Message July 17th, Thursday

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > By combining faith (path of devotion) and inquiry

> (path

> > > of

> > > > > > > > > knowledge) - sadhaka's life does not remain pure, it

> > > > becomes

> > > > > > > > impure?

> > > > > > > > > Does this imply that a sadhaka cannot follow the

> path

> > of

> > > > > > devotion

> > > > > > > > > and path of knowledge at the same time? Why should

it

> > > make

> > > > > his

> > > > > > > > life

> > > > > > > > > impure? Are these paths exclusive of each other?

> Please

> > > > > > clarify.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Subhash Madan

> > > > > > > > > Ram Ram

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > :Shree Hari:

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > 17th July, 2008, Thursday

> > > > > > > > > Aashaad Shukla Chaturdashi, Vikram Samvat 2065,

> Guruvar

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > We never looks to ourselves, as to why we were born?

> > > what

> > > > do

> > > > > we

> > > > > > > > > want? and what are we doing? As long as we are not

> > > > attentive

> > > > > to

> > > > > > > > > these things, till that time, our position (please

> > > forgive

> > > > > me

> > > > > > for

> > > > > > > > > saying this), is lower than that of animals ! Our

> life

> > > is

> > > > > lower

> > > > > > > > > than that of animals, birds, trees etc. After being

> > born

> > > a

> > > > > man,

> > > > > > > > > there is not that alertness, that inquiry as to

> whether

> > > we

> > > > > are

> > > > > > > > > really men? A man must have the alertness, and a

> quest

> > > to

> > > > > > know -

> > > > > > > > > why was I born? What should I do? and what should I

> not

> > > do?

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > If this understanding does not come on it's own,

> then

> > so

> > > > be

> > > > > > it.

> > > > > > > But

> > > > > > > > > from the messages of the saints and scriptures, one

> can

> > > > > > > understand

> > > > > > > > > completely, that human birth is attained only for

> one's

> > > > > > > liberation.

> > > > > > > > > From God's side, He has already given this as the

> last

> > > > birth,

> > > > > > > > > through which He can be realized.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Brahmaji through various sacrifices (yagna) he

> > manifests

> > > > > > > > > creation " sahyagyaah prajaah srhtavaapuraovaach

> > > > > prajaapatih, "

> > > > > > > (Gita

> > > > > > > > > 3:10). In other words, duty and the doer - they both

> > > > > > manifested

> > > > > > > at

> > > > > > > > > the same time. That which is " duty " is " innate " .

> Today,

> > > the

> > > > > > > > > difficulty and effort we experience in doing our

> duty,

> > > is

> > > > > due

> > > > > > to

> > > > > > > > > developing an affinity with the world. By it self

the

> > > doer

> > > > > is

> > > > > > > also

> > > > > > > > > innate, and the duties are also innate and natural.

> Man

> > > > > himself

> > > > > > > > > makes them unnatural. The thought does not arise in

> > him,

> > > > > that

> > > > > > why

> > > > > > > > > did he create this unnaturalness ? How did he do

> that?

> > > If

> > > > he

> > > > > > > > > inquires into this then benefits are certain !

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Now I will share with you one thing. There are two

> > > paths -

> > > > > one

> > > > > > > the

> > > > > > > > > path of vishwaas (faith and belief) and another the

> > path

> > > of

> > > > > > > > jigyaasa

> > > > > > > > > (quest for knowledge). Faith and belief is in that

> > which

> > > > one

> > > > > > has

> > > > > > > no

> > > > > > > > > doubt at all, where there is not even the slightest

> > > > > > possibility

> > > > > > > of

> > > > > > > > a

> > > > > > > > > doubt arising. That faith that is free of all

doubts,

> > > does

> > > > > not

> > > > > > > > > arise in the form of belief and faith from the

onset.

> > > > Rather

> > > > > > > > > inquiry is on those things where there is some

> element

> > > of

> > > > > > doubt.

> > > > > > > In

> > > > > > > > > Path of Devotion (bhakti maarg), faith and belief

> that

> > > is

> > > > > free

> > > > > > of

> > > > > > > > > all doubts is primary and in the path of jnana

> > > (knowledge,

> > > > > > > inquiry

> > > > > > > > > into the Truth) some doubt / uncertainty is

> paramount.

> > > By

> > > > > > > combining

> > > > > > > > > faith and inquiry - a sadhak's (spiritual

aspirant's)

> > > life

> > > > > > does

> > > > > > > not

> > > > > > > > > remain pure, it becomes impure.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > In what do we have faith? In that which we have no

> > > > knowledge

> > > > > of

> > > > > > > > > with our sense organs and inner faculties, we may or

> > may

> > > > not

> > > > > > have

> > > > > > > > > faith in that. There are only two points - either

you

> > > have

> > > > > > faith,

> > > > > > > > > or you don't have faith. Whether God exists or not,

> > this

> > > > > point

> > > > > > is

> > > > > > > > > not one of belief, it is one of an inquiring seeker.

> > (to

> > > be

> > > > > > > > > continued)

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > From " Saadhan, Sudhaa, Sindhu " in Hindi pg. 706 by

> > Swami

> > > > > > > > > Ramsukhdasji.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Ram Ram

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > GUIDELINES FOR POSTING A RESPONSE:

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > 1. The group is focused on the Holy Gitaji,

> therefore,

> > > only

> > > > > > > > > responses which further clarify the understanding of

> > > > Gitaji,

> > > > > > will

> > > > > > > > be

> > > > > > > > > posted.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > 2. Making reference of Gitaji shloka is highly

> > > encouraged -

> > > >

> > > > > at

> > > > > > > > least

> > > > > > > > > once in the response. Wherever possible, please

> quote

> > > > > Gitaji

> > > > > > or

> > > > > > > > > other scriptures to substantiate your response.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > 3. Please be as concise and to the point as

possible,

> > > > > > respecting

> > > > > > > > > sadhaka's time. Under no circustance the answer

> should

> > > > > exceed

> > > > > > say

> > > > > > > > > one page at the most (500 words or so).

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > 4. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs

> > > etc.

> > > > to

> > > > > > the

> > > > > > > > > extent that they further help in understanding the

> Gita

> > > > > shlokas

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand

> > only.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or

> > > other

> > > > > > > > > organizations.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > 7. Complete reproduction of texts from any book is

> > > strongly

> > > > > > > > > discouraged, however references may be made of the

> > book

> > > > or

> > > > > > > author

> > > > > > > > > (but not links to other sites).

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > 8. Kindly do not include your personal information

> such

> > > as

> > > > > > phone

> > > > > > > > > number, address etc.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > 9. Please do not address the response to a

particular

> > > > > > individual

> > > > > > > > > since the message is going to the entire group.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > 10. Due to the large readership, only those

responses

> > > will

> > > > be

> > > > > > > > posted

> > > > > > > > > which are in line with the general philosophy of

> taking

> > > > > Shrimad

> > > > > > > > > Bhagavad Gita as the reference.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > 11. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the

> > posting,

> > > if

> > > > > > > > content

> > > > > > > > > is unclear for distribution or not directly related

> to

> > > the

> > > > > > > > question

> > > > > > > > > being asked.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > 12. Please respond taking into consideration the

> > > novices,

> > > > > > youth,

> > > > > > > > > westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the

> > use

> > > > of

> > > > > > only

> > > > > > > > > Sanskrit words, rather provide the English word with

> > > > Sanskrit

> > > > > > > > > bracketed wherever possible.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > MODERATOR

> > > > > > > > > Ram Ram

> > > >

> > >

> >

>