Guest guest Posted July 24, 2008 Report Share Posted July 24, 2008 It is interesting to see the phrase " God Realization simply by desiring " in your daily posting... (see below) On one side all the spiritual books and all the learned swamis resound " No desires " , " No desires " . But these desires are egocentric in nature....mainly to satisfy one's senses of the self. Desiring God Realization may be the ultimate desire....the only desire that one should have. Sanskaras (impressions, concepts) in the mental domain are the cause for the desire to be formed in the mind. These sanskaras were formed in the past due to some action. When this formed desire was acted upon newer sanskaras are created and they have to be fulfilled in latter time. The cycle goes on and on while the soul goes through birth and death. The desire to attain God Realization is not born in mind since associated sanskaras (impressions) are very very feeble and other materialistic sanskaras dominate. It has to be either through knowledge or prasada from a Perfect Master. God realization can not be a desire.....because desires are an obstruction for the path of GR. What I heard from a learned Swamiji was even though this desire is a noble one but this desire itself can be an obstacle. God Realization has to be an ultimate goal. Loving God should be our goal. On the other hand actually learning to love God should be our goal. When you keep trying sincerely one day you will automatically become a good lover. If you become an expert in loving God...you automatically surrender to Him and when we do so it becomes God's responsibility to take care of us. He has no other choice than to take us to His Abode. Learning to love God and loving God should be our Goal. Lakshmi who is in 6th grade wants to become a doctor. She has to focus in her studies right from 6th grade itself with a goal to become a doctor. Of course she has to work hard with focused mind. If she continues to do so one day she will surely reach her goal if her destiny works out. But with her hard she can change her destiny. But in this case she saw some other doctors and she knew a little bit what would it be to be a doctor. in God Realization it is hard to get that experience. Please provide deeper understanding of what is meant by God Realization simply by desiring ? Jai Sri Ram Ravi Errabolu ------------------- :Shree Hari: 10th July, 2008, Thursday Aashaad Shukla Saptamii, Vikram Samvat 2065, Guruvar God realization is very easy. There cannot be any thing else that is easier than that. But there must be desire for only God, i.e. there should not be any other desire along with that. The reason is that the God is second to none. Just as God is exclusive, similarly desire for Him also should be exclusive. Three things are essential to get worldly things - desire, efforts and destiny. First you should have a desire to get / acquire a worldly thing, second, you should make an effort (do karma) to get the same. And thirdly, even after making an effort and doing karma, you will get that thing, only if you are destined to get it. If you are not destined to get the thing then even after desiring and making efforts you will not get the same. Therefore many times we make an effort to gain a profit, but end up incurring losses! But God is realized merely by desiring. There is no need of any effort or destiny. In path of God realization there is never a loss, there is profit and profit only. Except God, merely by desiring we do not get any other thing. Reason is that the human body has been given to us only for God realization. God has given this human body to us, with the aim and objective of realizing Him. Secondly, God is everywhere. There is no space even the size of a needle point that is without God being there. Therefore in His realization, there is no role of effort and destiny. By doing Karma (efforts, deeds) we get only perishable things. Imperishable God cannot be realized by doing (karmas). He is realized solely by intense desire. From " Maanav Matra ke Kalyaan ke Liye " in Hindi, page 74-75 by Swami Ramsukhdasji Maharaj GUIDELINES FOR POSTING A RESPONSE: 1. The group is focused on the Holy Gitaji, therefore, only responses which further clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will be posted. 2. Making reference of Gitaji shloka is highly encouraged - at least once in the response. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to substantiate your response. 3. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting sadhaka's time. Under no circustance the answer should exceed say one page at the most (500 words or so). 4. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only. 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other organizations. 7. Complete reproduction of texts from any book is strongly discouraged, however references may be made of the book or author (but not links to other sites). 8. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone number, address etc. 9. Please do not address the response to a particular individual since the message is going to the entire group. 10. Due to the large readership, only those responses will be posted which are in line with the general philosophy of taking Shrimad Bhagavad Gita as the reference. 11. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if content is unclear for distribution or not directly related to the question being asked. 12. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use of only Sanskrit words, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit bracketed wherever possible. MODERATOR Ram Ram Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 25, 2008 Report Share Posted July 25, 2008 Hari Om Many independent ways have been prescribed in the Scriptures / voices of Great Saints and Sages for Paramatma Realisation, which is higher state to Liberation / Salvation. But two things are common at the " final stage " - (i) Complete Desirelessness (thoughtlessness) (ii) Grace of Paramatma (God) There are two stages in the process- (i)means (ii) final stage. Before you reach final stage, as a striver or aspirant you must have objective (aim) as well as ardent desire for realisation. Desires are of two types. One - worldly desires. Two- " abhilaasha " , desire for liberation/Paramatma. The later in fact is your essential " need " . It in fact, is your goal. You have got human life only for that. True aspiration should be there to achieve Him. He gets into accessibilty zone only by ardent desire. The person who desires ONLY Paramatma and nothing nothing else - attains Him invariably. There is delay only for Him who bears delay for want of true and ardent desire. There is a way to attain a thing which is away. There is no way to attain a thing which is omnipresent. It is attaimed only by desiring it. Only Paramatma and NOTHING ELSE is accessible by mere desire. He is unique and hence desire for Him also should be unique. The world can't be achieved merely by desiring. It is achieved by " doing something " (by Efforts/ Karma) . Paramatma is realised by " not doing anything " . All actions are in regime of nature. He is beyond nature. Only desire therefore is means of realising Him. The aspirant must have internal (true) desire for Paramatma. He is not accessible, if the world is felt pretty and there is desire for it. One who feels the thirst for water inwardly, seeks water. Similarly for world. Similarly for Paramatma. If there is no thirst, the thing to quench that is not perceived at all even though it is in front. The world disappears, if there is thirst for Paramatma and He disappears if there is thirst for world. On account of thirst for the world, like a mirage it appears to exist though actually it doesn't exist and Paramatma is being perceived, when there is thirst for Him, even though He doesn't appear. When the thirst for Him is aroused, no thought of past comes to the aspirant's mind, he doesn't have any hope for future and he remains restless without attaining Paramatma at present this is " thoughtlessness " stage. Here you relinquish the " mind " (nature) totally. THE FINAL STAGE Once you reach to the door steps of Paramatma, you have to throw away that " need " , that " ardent desire " ,that " goal / objective " also and depend upon his grace only. JUST AS: When you go to a temple you need shoes, vehicle etc. But once you reach to the door steps of temple - the shoes, vehicle etc become unnecessary. You have to renounce them. SIMILARLY: At the final stage you have to renounce every desire including for " Paramatma Realisation " . Hope this clarifies your queries fully. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ------------------------------- We(Self) is different from the body. This is perceived by the eyes of wisdom. Human life is meant to be perceived by the eyes of wisdom. Satsang gives light. All this illumination is possible from satsang. God realisation simply by desiring is true so read sadhak sanjivani by 3 times you will realise it. Swamiji told to read sadhak sanjivani 3 times, and all of you will realise the difference in wisdom towards God realisation simply by desiring Thanks Pawan Singhal -------------------------------- Loving Divine, Pranam. When samskaar related to God are feeble but there is desire for God Realization (GR), it is good to remain in the company of people who are God intoxicated, it is very contagious. Satsang, scriptural study, making right choices (e.g., going for a movie vs. satsang), and God-gurus grace, all helps in firming up or intensify this desire and eventually help attain the goal. when the desire is intense nothing what so ever is needed! Here we want to use the desire for GR as a tool just like a boat is needed to cross the river and once crossed we don't carry boat with us. So when the desire is fulfilled, it drops, peace pervades but it is quite opposite when one desires material thing. One is not contended, with earning 1k, one wants 10k when desire for 1k is fulfilled. Therefore desire for God is still a noble one no matter how feeble it is, with right attitude one can intensify it. Another point as Baba says, the desire for material things is like an iron chain vs. desire for God realization is like a golden chain. Iron chain is extremely difficult to break but golden chain can be broken very easily so don't fear about desiring GR. Hope this helps... humble regards, always at Thy Holy Feet Manjula Patel -------------------------------- , " sadhak_insight " <sadhak_insight wrote: > > It is interesting to see the phrase " God Realization simply by > desiring " in your daily posting... (see below) > > On one side all the spiritual books and all the learned swamis > resound " No desires " , " No desires " . But these desires are egocentric > in nature....mainly to satisfy one's senses of the self. Desiring > God Realization may be the ultimate desire....the only > desire that one should have. > > Sanskaras (impressions, concepts) in the mental domain are the cause > for the desire to be formed in the mind. These sanskaras were formed > in the past due to some action. When this formed desire was acted > upon newer sanskaras are created and they have to be fulfilled in > latter time. The cycle goes on and on while the soul goes through > birth and death. > > The desire to attain God Realization is not born in mind since > associated sanskaras (impressions) are very very feeble and other > materialistic sanskaras dominate. It has to be either through > knowledge or prasada from a Perfect Master. > > God realization can not be a desire.....because desires are an > obstruction for the path of GR. What I heard from a learned Swamiji > was even though this desire is a noble one but this desire itself > can be an obstacle. God Realization has to be an ultimate goal. > Loving God should be our goal. On the other hand actually learning > to love God should be our goal. When you keep trying sincerely one > day you will automatically become a good lover. If you become an > expert in loving God...you automatically surrender to Him and when > we do so it becomes God's responsibility to take care of us. He has > no other choice than to take us to His Abode. > > Learning to love God and loving God should be our Goal. > > Lakshmi who is in 6th grade wants to become a doctor. She has to > focus in her studies right from 6th grade itself with a goal to > become a doctor. Of course she has to work hard with focused mind. > If she continues to do so one day she will surely reach her goal if > her destiny works out. But with her hard she can change her destiny. > But in this case she saw some other doctors and she knew a little > bit what would it be to be a doctor. in God Realization it is > hard to get that experience. > > Please provide deeper understanding of what is meant by God > Realization simply by desiring ? > > Jai Sri Ram > > Ravi Errabolu > > ------------------- > :Shree Hari: > > 10th July, 2008, Thursday > Aashaad Shukla Saptamii, Vikram Samvat 2065, Guruvar > > > God realization is very easy. There cannot be any thing else that > is easier than that. But there must be desire for only God, i.e. > there should not be any other desire along with that. The reason is > that the God is second to none. Just as God is exclusive, similarly > desire for Him also should be exclusive. > > Three things are essential to get worldly things - desire, efforts > and destiny. First you should have a desire to get / acquire a > worldly thing, second, you should make an effort (do karma) to get > the same. And thirdly, even after making an effort and doing karma, > you will get that thing, only if you are destined to get it. If you > are not destined to get the thing then even after desiring and > making efforts you will not get the same. Therefore many times we > make an effort to gain a profit, but end up incurring losses! But > God is realized merely by desiring. There is no need of any effort > or destiny. In path of God realization there is never a loss, there > is profit and profit only. > > Except God, merely by desiring we do not get any other thing. Reason > is that the human body has been given to us only for God > realization. God has given this human body to us, with the aim and > objective of realizing Him. Secondly, God is everywhere. There is no > space even the size of a needle point that is without God being > there. Therefore in His realization, there is no role of effort and > destiny. > > By doing Karma (efforts, deeds) we get only perishable things. > Imperishable God cannot be realized by doing (karmas). He is > realized solely by intense desire. > > From " Maanav Matra ke Kalyaan ke Liye " in Hindi, page 74-75 by Swami > Ramsukhdasji Maharaj > > > > GUIDELINES FOR POSTING A RESPONSE: > > 1. The group is focused on the Holy Gitaji, therefore, only > responses which further clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will be > posted. > > 2. Making reference of Gitaji shloka is highly encouraged - at least > once in the response. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or > other scriptures to substantiate your response. > > 3. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting > sadhaka's time. Under no circustance the answer should exceed say > one page at the most (500 words or so). > > 4. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the > extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas > > 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only. > > 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other > organizations. > > 7. Complete reproduction of texts from any book is strongly > discouraged, however references may be made of the book or author > (but not links to other sites). > > 8. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone > number, address etc. > > 9. Please do not address the response to a particular individual > since the message is going to the entire group. > > 10. Due to the large readership, only those responses will be posted > which are in line with the general philosophy of taking Shrimad > Bhagavad Gita as the reference. > > 11. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if content > is unclear for distribution or not directly related to the question > being asked. > > 12. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth, > westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use of only > Sanskrit words, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit > bracketed wherever possible. > > MODERATOR > Ram Ram > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 25, 2008 Report Share Posted July 25, 2008 shree hari ram ram I believe the issue is more of an equivalent English word... there does not appear to be a word that describes the word used by Swamiji in his discourses... words such as lagan, laalsa, and teevra icchaa, to address the intense longing for God and only God... Also sharing part of an entire discourse does not lend it self to a completeness and comprehensive coverage of the topic being discussed. Swamiji spoke on this subject many times and wanted to truly drive the point that to get things in this world one requires three things 1) desire, 2) effort and 3) Praarabh (that which is due to us from our past actions). All three are needed. None of these can be missing for us to get something in this material world. But Swamiji made it very clear that to attain Paramatma (Supreme Consciousness, God) is not like attaining worldly things ! It requires only our desire (intense longing, exclusive attachment, uninterrupted and single-pointed will etc.), purely because realizing Paramatma is not like attaining material things that are bound by time, space and causation. There is a way to attain a thing which is far away. It is attained by " doing something " (by Effort / Karma). There is no way to attain a thing which is Omnipresent, Omniscient and Omnipotent by the same worldly processes and steps. That One is realized only by willing it (intensely longing and desiring it) and that thing is Paramatma, as ONLY Paramatma can be realized by willing, NOTHING ELSE is accessible by mere will or desire. Paramatma is realised by " not doing anything " . All actions are in regime of nature. God (Supreme Consciousness) is beyond nature. Only desire (lagan, laalsaa, teevra icchaa) therefore is means of realising That. Swamiji says, in reality, Supreme Consciousness (Paramatma, God) is already attained. It is our worldly desires that is preventing us from realizig That. Therefore when we desire with intensity, and want only and exclusively That, then who can stop That from being realized ? There is no one that has the strength to be an obstacle in attaining That Supreme Consciousness (God), if we have intense longing for only That. Meera Das - Shri Krishnah sharanam mama I think we perhaps need to revisit the use of the words `desirelessness' or `thoughtlessness', since the former is necessary even at the `final stage'and the latter is impossible. The desire (rather longing) for Him has to remain there in a Jiva until with His grace the Jiva attains Him. There is no `final stage' as such, since we can never know that stage and about the moment when His grace will be bestowed on the Jiva. Thus the longing for Paramatma realization has to remain until that `desire' is fulfilled with His grace. Thinking is very much an action and thoughts are actions performed, but thinking about God is not an action if the desire for (self's) salvation does not exist. In fact in the Bhakti marga, all our actions should be only and only for the pleasure/happiness of God and your own pleasures including your satisfaction, peace, etc. that you may be deriving, should not be there. That is what the Gopi love was. Regards. K.N. Sharma -------------------------------- Dear Sadaks, God realization is achived only by sheding all desires. One small desire can never lead one to Moksha. Examples: Namadev desire to write Abang lead to rebirth as Tukaram. Narada desire to teach people Narayana Manthra lead to birth as Puranderdos. Bharatha Yogiswar desire to rare a dear lead to birth as dear. Desire to realize GOD in previous birth leads to present birth in seeking GOD realization B.Sathyanarayan - , " sadhak_insight " <sadhak_insight wrote: > > Hari Om > > Many independent ways have been prescribed in the Scriptures / > voices of Great Saints and Sages for Paramatma Realisation, which is > higher state to Liberation / Salvation. But two things are common at > the " final stage " - (i) Complete Desirelessness (thoughtlessness) > (ii) Grace of Paramatma (God) > > There are two stages in the process- (i)means (ii) final stage. > > Before you reach final stage, as a striver or aspirant you must have > objective (aim) as well as ardent desire for realisation. > > Desires are of two types. One - worldly desires. Two- " abhilaasha " , > desire for liberation/Paramatma. The later in fact is your > essential " need " . It in fact, is your goal. You have got human life > only for that. > > True aspiration should be there to achieve Him. He gets into > accessibilty zone only by ardent desire. The person who desires ONLY > Paramatma and nothing nothing else - attains Him invariably. There > is delay only for Him who bears delay for want of true and ardent > desire. > > There is a way to attain a thing which is away. There is no way to > attain a thing which is omnipresent. It is attaimed only by desiring > it. Only Paramatma and NOTHING ELSE is accessible by mere desire. He > is unique and hence desire for Him also should be unique. The world > can't be achieved merely by desiring. It is achieved by " doing > something " (by Efforts/ Karma) . Paramatma is realised by " not doing > anything " . All actions are in regime of nature. He is beyond nature. > Only desire therefore is means of realising Him. > > The aspirant must have internal (true) desire for Paramatma. He is > not accessible, if the world is felt pretty and there is desire for > it. One who feels the thirst for water inwardly, seeks water. > Similarly for world. Similarly for Paramatma. If there is no > thirst, the thing to quench that is not perceived at all even > though it is in front. The world disappears, if there is thirst for > Paramatma and He disappears if there is thirst for world. > > On account of thirst for the world, like a mirage it appears to > exist though actually it doesn't exist and Paramatma is being > perceived, when there is thirst for Him, even though He doesn't > appear. > > When the thirst for Him is aroused, no thought of past comes to the > aspirant's mind, he doesn't have any hope for future and he remains > restless without attaining Paramatma at present this > is " thoughtlessness " stage. Here you relinquish the " mind " (nature) > totally. > > THE FINAL STAGE > > Once you reach to the door steps of Paramatma, you have to throw > away that " need " , that " ardent desire " ,that " goal / objective " also > and depend upon his grace only. > > JUST AS: When you go to a temple you need shoes, vehicle etc. But > once you reach to the door steps of temple - the shoes, vehicle etc > become unnecessary. You have to renounce them. SIMILARLY: At the > final stage you have to renounce every desire including for " > Paramatma Realisation " . > > Hope this clarifies your queries fully. > > Jai Shree Krishna > > Vyas N B > > ------------------------------- > > > We(Self) is different from the body. This is perceived by the eyes > of wisdom. Human life is meant to be perceived by the eyes of > wisdom. Satsang gives light. All this illumination is possible from > satsang. > > God realisation simply by desiring is true so read sadhak sanjivani > by 3 times you will realise it. Swamiji told to read sadhak > sanjivani 3 times, and all of you will realise the difference in > wisdom towards God realisation simply by desiring > > Thanks > > Pawan Singhal > -------------------------------- > > Loving Divine, > Pranam. > When samskaar related to God are feeble but there is desire for God > Realization (GR), it is good to remain in the company of people who > are God intoxicated, it is very contagious. Satsang, scriptural > study, making right choices (e.g., going for a movie vs. satsang), > and God-gurus grace, all helps in firming up or intensify this > desire and eventually help attain the goal. when the desire is > intense nothing what so ever is needed! > > Here we want to use the desire for GR as a tool just like a boat is > needed to cross the river and once crossed we don't carry boat with > us. So when the desire is fulfilled, it drops, peace pervades but > it is quite opposite when one desires material thing. One is not > contended, with earning 1k, one wants 10k when desire for 1k is > fulfilled. Therefore desire for God is still a noble one no matter > how feeble it is, with right attitude one can intensify it. > > Another point as Baba says, the desire for material things is like > an iron chain vs. desire for God realization is like a golden > chain. Iron chain is extremely difficult to break but golden chain > can be broken very easily so don't fear about desiring GR. > > Hope this helps... > humble regards, > always at Thy Holy Feet > > Manjula Patel > > -------------------------------- > , " sadhak_insight " > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > It is interesting to see the phrase " God Realization simply by > > desiring " in your daily posting... (see below) > > > > On one side all the spiritual books and all the learned swamis > > resound " No desires " , " No desires " . But these desires are > egocentric > > in nature....mainly to satisfy one's senses of the self. Desiring > > God Realization may be the ultimate desire....the only > > desire that one should have. > > > > Sanskaras (impressions, concepts) in the mental domain are the > cause > > for the desire to be formed in the mind. These sanskaras were > formed > > in the past due to some action. When this formed desire was acted > > upon newer sanskaras are created and they have to be fulfilled in > > latter time. The cycle goes on and on while the soul goes through > > birth and death. > > > > The desire to attain God Realization is not born in mind since > > associated sanskaras (impressions) are very very feeble and other > > materialistic sanskaras dominate. It has to be either through > > knowledge or prasada from a Perfect Master. > > > > God realization can not be a desire.....because desires are an > > obstruction for the path of GR. What I heard from a learned Swamiji > > was even though this desire is a noble one but this desire itself > > can be an obstacle. God Realization has to be an ultimate goal. > > Loving God should be our goal. On the other hand actually learning > > to love God should be our goal. When you keep trying sincerely one > > day you will automatically become a good lover. If you become an > > expert in loving God...you automatically surrender to Him and when > > we do so it becomes God's responsibility to take care of us. He has > > no other choice than to take us to His Abode. > > > > Learning to love God and loving God should be our Goal. > > > > Lakshmi who is in 6th grade wants to become a doctor. She has to > > focus in her studies right from 6th grade itself with a goal to > > become a doctor. Of course she has to work hard with focused mind. > > If she continues to do so one day she will surely reach her goal if > > her destiny works out. But with her hard she can change her > destiny. > > But in this case she saw some other doctors and she knew a little > > bit what would it be to be a doctor. in God Realization it is > > hard to get that experience. > > > > Please provide deeper understanding of what is meant by God > > Realization simply by desiring ? > > > > Jai Sri Ram > > > > Ravi Errabolu > > > > ------------------- > > :Shree Hari: > > > > 10th July, 2008, Thursday > > Aashaad Shukla Saptamii, Vikram Samvat 2065, Guruvar > > > > > > God realization is very easy. There cannot be any thing else that > > is easier than that. But there must be desire for only God, i.e. > > there should not be any other desire along with that. The reason is > > that the God is second to none. Just as God is exclusive, similarly > > desire for Him also should be exclusive. > > > > Three things are essential to get worldly things - desire, efforts > > and destiny. First you should have a desire to get / acquire a > > worldly thing, second, you should make an effort (do karma) to get > > the same. And thirdly, even after making an effort and doing karma, > > you will get that thing, only if you are destined to get it. If you > > are not destined to get the thing then even after desiring and > > making efforts you will not get the same. Therefore many times we > > make an effort to gain a profit, but end up incurring losses! But > > God is realized merely by desiring. There is no need of any effort > > or destiny. In path of God realization there is never a loss, there > > is profit and profit only. > > > > Except God, merely by desiring we do not get any other thing. > Reason > > is that the human body has been given to us only for God > > realization. God has given this human body to us, with the aim and > > objective of realizing Him. Secondly, God is everywhere. There is > no > > space even the size of a needle point that is without God being > > there. Therefore in His realization, there is no role of effort and > > destiny. > > > > By doing Karma (efforts, deeds) we get only perishable things. > > Imperishable God cannot be realized by doing (karmas). He is > > realized solely by intense desire. > > > > From " Maanav Matra ke Kalyaan ke Liye " in Hindi, page 74-75 by > Swami > > Ramsukhdasji Maharaj > > > > > > > > GUIDELINES FOR POSTING A RESPONSE: > > > > 1. The group is focused on the Holy Gitaji, therefore, only > > responses which further clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will > be > > posted. > > > > 2. Making reference of Gitaji shloka is highly encouraged - at > least > > once in the response. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or > > other scriptures to substantiate your response. > > > > 3. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting > > sadhaka's time. Under no circustance the answer should exceed say > > one page at the most (500 words or so). > > > > 4. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the > > extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas > > > > 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only. > > > > 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other > > organizations. > > > > 7. Complete reproduction of texts from any book is strongly > > discouraged, however references may be made of the book or author > > (but not links to other sites). > > > > 8. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone > > number, address etc. > > > > 9. Please do not address the response to a particular individual > > since the message is going to the entire group. > > > > 10. Due to the large readership, only those responses will be > posted > > which are in line with the general philosophy of taking Shrimad > > Bhagavad Gita as the reference. > > > > 11. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if content > > is unclear for distribution or not directly related to the question > > being asked. > > > > 12. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth, > > westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use of only > > Sanskrit words, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit > > bracketed wherever possible. > > > > MODERATOR > > Ram Ram > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 26, 2008 Report Share Posted July 26, 2008 Hari Om It may not be correct to say that the cessation/dissolution of mind is impossible. A lot , lot of examples can be given from scriptures to substantiate that mind has to be brought to tranquility/dissolution/ thoughtlessness. It is not that difficult as we perceive it to be. Mind can only travel in the past or in future. Meditation( Dhyaan Yoga) attempts to do that only..Had the state of " thoughtlessness " been not possible , Krishna would not have stated in Gita " na kinchidapi chintayet " ( nothing one should think- Gita 6:25) . How does mind attain absence? Consider the following translations " As it is " from Yoga Vashistha where Sage Vashishtha taught Lord Rama:- It is only the mind with various desires or activities that moves round apparently with the nature of objects, sporting in existence and non existence , as water appears with the nature of a wave. King! By the renunciation of everything in the form of destruction of the mind , everything is duly obtained always, as by the acquisition of complete sovereignty. There is only one remedy for this pain that is the course of worldly life causing all troubles, namely, the control of one's own mind. The alleviation of pain is obtained by the mere dissolution of the mind. THEN, THE TRANQUIL,ALL PERVADING BRAHMAN WHICH IS EVERYTHING, IS OBTAINED. THERE IS NO AUSPICIOUS PATH EXCEPT THE MERE CESSATION OF THE MIND , WHICH IS ATTAINABLE ONLY BY ONE'S OWN EFFORTS IN THE FORM OF THE RENUNCIATION OF ONE'S DESIRES. ( Yoga Vaashistha - Chapter 3- The Dissolution of Mind) Thus when all desires are relinquished , ( including for Paramatma Realisation) and when there is no thought of past or hope for future, the mind quietens and reaches to a " thoghtlessness " state- which then by grace of Paramatma makes you realise Him.. The distinction between " saadhan stage " (striving phase) and " final stage " was made only to draw the dividing line between " desiring/ thinking mind " and " dissolved/ thoughtless mind " . The switch over time may even be as instant as is between switching on an electricity button and flow of electricity. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B - lagan means persistence laalsa means greed (for more and more) teevra ichha means urgent desire i enjoy your insight and agree with you some words in hindi or for that matter in many languages have no exact equivalent words in hindi even if you have sense get lost in translation. umesh rashmi rohatgi - , " sadhak_insight " <sadhak_insight wrote: > > shree hari > ram ram > > I believe the issue is more of an equivalent English word... there > does not appear to be a word that describes the word used by Swamiji > in his discourses... words such as lagan, laalsa, and teevra icchaa, > to address the intense longing for God and only God... Also sharing > part of an entire discourse does not lend it self to a completeness > and comprehensive coverage of the topic being discussed. > > Swamiji spoke on this subject many times and wanted to truly drive > the point that to get things in this world one requires three things 1) desire, 2) effort and 3) Praarabh (that which is due to us from our past actions). All three are needed. None of these can be > missing for us to get something in this material world. But Swamiji made it very clear that to attain Paramatma (Supreme Consciousness, God) is not like attaining worldly things ! It requires only our desire (intense longing, exclusive attachment, uninterrupted and single-pointed will etc.), purely because realizing Paramatma is not like attaining material things that are bound by time, space and causation. > > There is a way to attain a thing which is far away. It is attained > by " doing something " (by Effort / Karma). There is no way to attain > a thing which is Omnipresent, Omniscient and Omnipotent by the same > worldly processes and steps. That One is realized only by willing it > (intensely longing and desiring it) and that thing is Paramatma, as > ONLY Paramatma can be realized by willing, NOTHING ELSE is accessible by mere will or desire. Paramatma is realised by " not > doing anything " . All actions are in regime of nature. God (Supreme > Consciousness) is beyond nature. Only desire (lagan, laalsaa, teevra > icchaa) therefore is means of realising That. > > Swamiji says, in reality, Supreme Consciousness (Paramatma, God) is > already attained. It is our worldly desires that is preventing us > from realizig That. Therefore when we desire with intensity, and > want only and exclusively That, then who can stop That from being > realized ? There is no one that has the strength to be an obstacle > in attaining That Supreme Consciousness (God), if we have intense > longing for only That. > > Meera Das > - > > Shri Krishnah sharanam mama > > I think we perhaps need to revisit the use of the > words `desirelessness' or `thoughtlessness', since the former is > necessary even at the `final stage'and the latter is impossible. The > desire (rather longing) for Him has to remain there in a Jiva until > with His grace the Jiva attains Him. There is no `final stage' as > such, since we can never know that stage and about the moment when > His grace will be bestowed on the Jiva. Thus the longing for > Paramatma realization has to remain until that `desire' is fulfilled > with His grace. Thinking is very much an action and thoughts are > actions performed, but thinking about God is not an action if the > desire for (self's) salvation does not exist. In fact in the Bhakti > marga, all our actions should be only and only for the > pleasure/happiness of God and your own pleasures including your > satisfaction, peace, etc. that you may be deriving, should not be > there. That is what the Gopi love was. > > Regards. > > K.N. Sharma > > -------------------------------- > > Dear Sadaks, > God realization is achived only by sheding all desires. One small > desire can never lead one to Moksha. Examples: Namadev desire to > write Abang lead to rebirth as Tukaram. Narada desire to teach > people Narayana Manthra lead to birth as Puranderdos. Bharatha > Yogiswar desire to rare a dear lead to birth as dear. Desire to > realize GOD in previous birth leads to present birth in seeking GOD > realization > B.Sathyanarayan > - > > > , " sadhak_insight " > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > Hari Om > > > > Many independent ways have been prescribed in the Scriptures / > > voices of Great Saints and Sages for Paramatma Realisation, which > is > > higher state to Liberation / Salvation. But two things are common > at > > the " final stage " - (i) Complete Desirelessness (thoughtlessness) > > (ii) Grace of Paramatma (God) > > > > There are two stages in the process- (i)means (ii) final stage. > > > > Before you reach final stage, as a striver or aspirant you must > have > > objective (aim) as well as ardent desire for realisation. > > > > Desires are of two types. One - worldly desires. Two- > " abhilaasha " , > > desire for liberation/Paramatma. The later in fact is your > > essential " need " . It in fact, is your goal. You have got human > life > > only for that. > > > > True aspiration should be there to achieve Him. He gets into > > accessibilty zone only by ardent desire. The person who desires > ONLY > > Paramatma and nothing nothing else - attains Him invariably. There > > is delay only for Him who bears delay for want of true and ardent > > desire. > > > > There is a way to attain a thing which is away. There is no way to > > attain a thing which is omnipresent. It is attaimed only by > desiring > > it. Only Paramatma and NOTHING ELSE is accessible by mere desire. > He > > is unique and hence desire for Him also should be unique. The > world > > can't be achieved merely by desiring. It is achieved by " doing > > something " (by Efforts/ Karma) . Paramatma is realised by " not > doing > > anything " . All actions are in regime of nature. He is beyond > nature. > > Only desire therefore is means of realising Him. > > > > The aspirant must have internal (true) desire for Paramatma. He is > > not accessible, if the world is felt pretty and there is desire > for > > it. One who feels the thirst for water inwardly, seeks water. > > Similarly for world. Similarly for Paramatma. If there is no > > thirst, the thing to quench that is not perceived at all even > > though it is in front. The world disappears, if there is thirst > for > > Paramatma and He disappears if there is thirst for world. > > > > On account of thirst for the world, like a mirage it appears to > > exist though actually it doesn't exist and Paramatma is being > > perceived, when there is thirst for Him, even though He doesn't > > appear. > > > > When the thirst for Him is aroused, no thought of past comes to > the > > aspirant's mind, he doesn't have any hope for future and he > remains > > restless without attaining Paramatma at present this > > is " thoughtlessness " stage. Here you relinquish the " mind " > (nature) > > totally. > > > > THE FINAL STAGE > > > > Once you reach to the door steps of Paramatma, you have to throw > > away that " need " , that " ardent desire " ,that " goal / objective " > also > > and depend upon his grace only. > > > > JUST AS: When you go to a temple you need shoes, vehicle etc. But > > once you reach to the door steps of temple - the shoes, vehicle > etc > > become unnecessary. You have to renounce them. SIMILARLY: At the > > final stage you have to renounce every desire including for " > > Paramatma Realisation " . > > > > Hope this clarifies your queries fully. > > > > Jai Shree Krishna > > > > Vyas N B > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > > > We(Self) is different from the body. This is perceived by the eyes > > of wisdom. Human life is meant to be perceived by the eyes of > > wisdom. Satsang gives light. All this illumination is possible > from > > satsang. > > > > God realisation simply by desiring is true so read sadhak > sanjivani > > by 3 times you will realise it. Swamiji told to read sadhak > > sanjivani 3 times, and all of you will realise the difference in > > wisdom towards God realisation simply by desiring > > > > Thanks > > > > Pawan Singhal > > -------------------------------- > > > > Loving Divine, > > Pranam. > > When samskaar related to God are feeble but there is desire for > God > > Realization (GR), it is good to remain in the company of people > who > > are God intoxicated, it is very contagious. Satsang, scriptural > > study, making right choices (e.g., going for a movie vs. satsang), > > and God-gurus grace, all helps in firming up or intensify this > > desire and eventually help attain the goal. when the desire is > > intense nothing what so ever is needed! > > > > Here we want to use the desire for GR as a tool just like a boat > is > > needed to cross the river and once crossed we don't carry boat > with > > us. So when the desire is fulfilled, it drops, peace pervades but > > it is quite opposite when one desires material thing. One is not > > contended, with earning 1k, one wants 10k when desire for 1k is > > fulfilled. Therefore desire for God is still a noble one no > matter > > how feeble it is, with right attitude one can intensify it. > > > > Another point as Baba says, the desire for material things is like > > an iron chain vs. desire for God realization is like a golden > > chain. Iron chain is extremely difficult to break but golden > chain > > can be broken very easily so don't fear about desiring GR. > > > > Hope this helps... > > humble regards, > > always at Thy Holy Feet > > > > Manjula Patel > > > > -------------------------------- > > , " sadhak_insight " > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote: > > > > > > It is interesting to see the phrase " God Realization simply by > > > desiring " in your daily posting... (see below) > > > > > > On one side all the spiritual books and all the learned swamis > > > resound " No desires " , " No desires " . But these desires are > > egocentric > > > in nature....mainly to satisfy one's senses of the self. Desiring > > > God Realization may be the ultimate desire....the only > > > desire that one should have. > > > > > > Sanskaras (impressions, concepts) in the mental domain are the > > cause > > > for the desire to be formed in the mind. These sanskaras were > > formed > > > in the past due to some action. When this formed desire was acted > > > upon newer sanskaras are created and they have to be fulfilled in > > > latter time. The cycle goes on and on while the soul goes through > > > birth and death. > > > > > > The desire to attain God Realization is not born in mind since > > > associated sanskaras (impressions) are very very feeble and other > > > materialistic sanskaras dominate. It has to be either through > > > knowledge or prasada from a Perfect Master. > > > > > > God realization can not be a desire.....because desires are an > > > obstruction for the path of GR. What I heard from a learned > Swamiji > > > was even though this desire is a noble one but this desire itself > > > can be an obstacle. God Realization has to be an ultimate goal. > > > Loving God should be our goal. On the other hand actually > learning > > > to love God should be our goal. When you keep trying sincerely > one > > > day you will automatically become a good lover. If you become an > > > expert in loving God...you automatically surrender to Him and > when > > > we do so it becomes God's responsibility to take care of us. He > has > > > no other choice than to take us to His Abode. > > > > > > Learning to love God and loving God should be our Goal. > > > > > > Lakshmi who is in 6th grade wants to become a doctor. She has to > > > focus in her studies right from 6th grade itself with a goal to > > > become a doctor. Of course she has to work hard with focused > mind. > > > If she continues to do so one day she will surely reach her goal > if > > > her destiny works out. But with her hard she can change her > > destiny. > > > But in this case she saw some other doctors and she knew a little > > > bit what would it be to be a doctor. in God Realization it is > > > hard to get that experience. > > > > > > Please provide deeper understanding of what is meant by God > > > Realization simply by desiring ? > > > > > > Jai Sri Ram > > > > > > Ravi Errabolu > > > > > > ------------------- > > > :Shree Hari: > > > > > > 10th July, 2008, Thursday > > > Aashaad Shukla Saptamii, Vikram Samvat 2065, Guruvar > > > > > > > > > God realization is very easy. There cannot be any thing else that > > > is easier than that. But there must be desire for only God, i.e. > > > there should not be any other desire along with that. The reason > is > > > that the God is second to none. Just as God is exclusive, > similarly > > > desire for Him also should be exclusive. > > > > > > Three things are essential to get worldly things - desire, > efforts > > > and destiny. First you should have a desire to get / acquire a > > > worldly thing, second, you should make an effort (do karma) to > get > > > the same. And thirdly, even after making an effort and doing > karma, > > > you will get that thing, only if you are destined to get it. If > you > > > are not destined to get the thing then even after desiring and > > > making efforts you will not get the same. Therefore many times we > > > make an effort to gain a profit, but end up incurring losses! But > > > God is realized merely by desiring. There is no need of any > effort > > > or destiny. In path of God realization there is never a loss, > there > > > is profit and profit only. > > > > > > Except God, merely by desiring we do not get any other thing. > > Reason > > > is that the human body has been given to us only for God > > > realization. God has given this human body to us, with the aim > and > > > objective of realizing Him. Secondly, God is everywhere. There > is > > no > > > space even the size of a needle point that is without God being > > > there. Therefore in His realization, there is no role of effort > and > > > destiny. > > > > > > By doing Karma (efforts, deeds) we get only perishable things. > > > Imperishable God cannot be realized by doing (karmas). He is > > > realized solely by intense desire. > > > > > > From " Maanav Matra ke Kalyaan ke Liye " in Hindi, page 74-75 by > > Swami > > > Ramsukhdasji Maharaj > > > > > > > > > > > > GUIDELINES FOR POSTING A RESPONSE: > > > > > > 1. The group is focused on the Holy Gitaji, therefore, only > > > responses which further clarify the understanding of Gitaji, > will > > be > > > posted. > > > > > > 2. Making reference of Gitaji shloka is highly encouraged - at > > least > > > once in the response. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or > > > other scriptures to substantiate your response. > > > > > > 3. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting > > > sadhaka's time. Under no circustance the answer should exceed say > > > one page at the most (500 words or so). > > > > > > 4. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the > > > extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas > > > > > > 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only. > > > > > > 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other > > > organizations. > > > > > > 7. Complete reproduction of texts from any book is strongly > > > discouraged, however references may be made of the book or > author > > > (but not links to other sites). > > > > > > 8. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone > > > number, address etc. > > > > > > 9. Please do not address the response to a particular individual > > > since the message is going to the entire group. > > > > > > 10. Due to the large readership, only those responses will be > > posted > > > which are in line with the general philosophy of taking Shrimad > > > Bhagavad Gita as the reference. > > > > > > 11. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if > content > > > is unclear for distribution or not directly related to the > question > > > being asked. > > > > > > 12. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth, > > > westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use of only > > > Sanskrit words, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit > > > bracketed wherever possible. > > > > > > MODERATOR > > > Ram Ram > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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