Nothing is Mine, I Need Nothing, I have No Relationships - Please Explain

[Guest guest]

It is so confusing.

If everybody follows " Nothing Is Mine " and " I Do not need anything "

and specially " I do not have any relationship with anybody " then how

will the world work?

The saints are able to do sainthood because there are people who pay

for them.

Do you have a blog or area where people can discuss these thoughts?

 

Thanks

Vijay Aggraval

-------------------

 

On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 10:39 AM, sadhak_insight

<sadhak_insight wrote:

 

2nd July, 2008, Wednesday

Aashaad Krishna Chaturdashi, Vikram Samvat 2065, Budhvar

 

Every human being is completely independent, powerful, capable and

eligible in his salvation (kalyaan). The reason is that when God

gives human body to jeeva (embodied soul), he also gives to him the

independence, power, capability and eligibility for his salvation

(kalyaan).

 

Now the question arises, what one should do for the same? The answer

is that if a person firmly accepts the following four things then

his kalyaan is certain :-

 

1. Nothing is Mine.

2. I do not need anything.

3. I do not have any relationship with anybody.

4. Only God is my own.

 

The fundamental fault is to assume " mineness " with the temporary

worldly things. From this fault alone all other faults arise. In

fact in this entire universe not even a thing like hair is ours.

Thereforth as soon as we accept " nothing is mine " - there comes

faultlessness in us and we instantly become " dharmatma " (a pure holy

soul).

 

When nothing is ours, then what is there to desire? Hence as soon we

accept- " I do not need anything " , we become " nishkaam " (desireless)

and henceforth a " Yogi " as you acquire Equanimity. - " samatvam yog

uchyate " (Gita 2: 48)

 

The essential self (svaroop) of every human being is " asang "

(naturally detached). Therefore as soon as we decline to accept any

relationship with any body or any thing that comes together and

later departs, we realise our self proven, obvious disassociation or

detachment. And as soon as we realise our obvious detachment, we

become " jnani " (knowledgeable).

 

We are essentially a part of God - Gita 15:7. Hence only God is

ours. Nobody else is ours. As soon as we accept our mine-ness with

God, we become " Bhakta " (devotee of God).

 

A human being's kalyaan (salvation) is only vested in his being

Dharmatma Yogi (pure holy soul, with equanimity and free of all

desires), in being Detached and in being a Devotee of God.

Therefore it is a spiritual aspirant's duty that he accept these

four worthy facts with a firm conviction. Then his salvation is

definite.

 

From " Maanav Matra ke kalyaan ke liye " in Hindi pg 69/70, by Swami

Ramsukhdasji

 

Ram Ram

--------------------------------

GUIDELINES FOR POSTING A RESPONSE:

 

1. The group is focused on the Holy Gitaji, therefore, only

responses which further clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will be

posted.

 

2. Making reference of Gitaji shloka is highly encouraged - at least

once in the response. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or

other scriptures to substantiate your response.

 

3. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting

sadhaka's time. Under no circustance the answer should exceed say

one (book) page at the most (500 words or so) 3-4 paragraphs.

 

4. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the

extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas

 

5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only.

 

6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other

organizations.

 

7. Complete reproduction of texts from any book is strongly

discouraged, however references may be made of the book or author

(but not links to other sites).

 

8. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone

number, address etc.

 

9. Please do not address the response to a particular individual

since the message is going to the entire group.

 

10. Due to the large readership, only those responses will be posted

which are in line with the general philosophy of taking Shrimad

Bhagavad Gita as the reference.

 

11. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if content

is unclear for distribution or not directly related to the question

being asked.

 

12. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth,

westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use of only

Sanskrit words, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit

bracketed wherever possible.

 

13. Any personal remarks over the knowledge of any sadhak or about

the

stage at which any sadhak is standing in his quest / sadhna /

spiritual journey - must not be included in your posting.''

 

14. There should not be any sarcasm towards fellow sadhaks in this

spiritual learning and sharing.

 

 

MODERATOR

Ram Ram

[Guest guest]

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

FROM MODERATOR:

 

Dear Divine Sadhaks,

 

Vijayji has posed a wonderful question that will benefit many of us !

 

Question: If everybody follows " Nothing Is Mine " and " I Do not need

anything " and specially " I do not have any relationship with anybody "

then how will the world work? The saints are able to do sainthood

because there are people who pay for them. Do you have a blog or

area where people can discuss these thoughts? Vijay Aggraval

 

I appeal / encourage you all to not be passive by-standers, but to

step up to the challenge of the question being asked. Let us all

take this divine opportunity, to carefully and attentively review the

message from Swamiji, the question and the responses so far. If there

is any doubts, to bring it forward to the group.

 

I encourage Vijayji, Simiji and all others that have expressed

concern on similar or related topics in the past; to name a few -

Madan Gupta, Anilji Bhanot, Vavamenonji, and any others to

deliberate / respond with your very brief answers. Vijayji, since we

do not have a blog at this time, you may react from time to time more

actively, by asking counter questions, feeling free to participate in

full, to gain clarification of any doubts that you may have related

to the topic being discussed.

 

We shall allow maximum time span for this question until doubts of

sadhaks are clarified. In fact, there will be no new questions

posted till this question has reached to a logical conclusion. I

therefore expect that all sadhaks will be fully engaged in this

discussion. Such questions / answers can be transforming.

 

Thank you all for this Jnana ganga !

 

From Gita Talk Moderator

Ram Ram

 

--

 

Hari Om

 

The apprehension as to whether the world will work or not denotes a

presumption that the entire world is " driven by desires " only. There

can not be any desireless actions at all and if the desireless

actions are resorted to by anybody, the world comes to a grinding

halt - at least for that body ! Too over confident an observation

indeed !

 

The observation reg the Saints is too bad - unbelievably bad. Who can

pay for Saints? No body can ever pay for them or repay them for what

they give to humanity at large. Judgement cannot be passed if there

is a question/doubt.

 

Even without face to face interaction, the subject can be discussed

and grasped - if we utilise our power " to accept/believe " and " to

know " correctly. You know that you have these powers. Hence kindly

now position yourself with an open, receptive, comprehending,

willing, ready to understand, logical, rationale, scientific,

patient, serious and impartial (equanimous) mind set and follow what

all sadhaks respond pursuant to your question. I will too contribute

from time to time.

 

You of course will have ample opportunities of expressing your views,

of counter arguing , etc. You may even respond against each and every

observation given by various Sadhaks of this Gita Talk Group. We

shall definitely make an effort to convince you - by sheer power of

the truth !

 

If you are ready and have power of belief in you, then first believe

that in such deliberations ultimately the truth prevails. You will

have to be patient, though. Believe me, your question otherwise is

excellent and will help many. The answers will be eye openers.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

 

 

Dear Sadhus, Master!

 

If one takes the literal meaning of " nothing is mine " or " I don't

have any relationship with anybody " , it will sound confusing.

However, these statements asks us to develop and live with such

inner attitude when dealing with world. Obviously we all are

interdependent on one another, rather, this entire universe works as

though it is one system. We all need the basic minimum, like food,

shelter, clothing, and may be few others for survival. As can be

seen, these require us to function harmoniously in society.

 

What happens is that we get attached to " me " and mineness becomes so

real, so important to us that we forget our interdependencies,

duties, righteousness etc and end up developing greed, envy, jealousy

and other negative emotions. This leads us to suffering.

Swamiji's message below is very clear: In order to free ourselves

from suffering, we need to be detached from the things of the world.

As made by God, we are complete in ourselves inwardly, we just need

to realize it by our inner attitude suggested here.

 

To do so would require me to live and deal with world with an inner

attitude as if nothing is mine. When established firmly in this

attitude, I will realize the truth of other statements of Swamiji: " I

have no relationship with anyone " , " I don't need anything " , " Only God

is mine "

 

One doesn't need to avoid or escape from the world or things of the

world which will clearly indicate aversions same as attachments and

continuation of suffering. However, one sees God in all(God is mine

in this sense), is filled with only love, compassion and serves all.

After all when God takes care of such a one as promised in Gita 9:22,

(.....Yoga kshemam vahamyaham), He does it through people and nature.

Such a one, while not selfishly related to anyone, is truly related

to all as if they are one.

 

In summary, Swamiji asks us that while outwardly being

interdependent, be unattached and not depend on anyone or anything

inwardly for our own comforts, and happiness. This is because in

doing so, we will be inevitably unhappy due to changing nature of

world. In this way when we are detached, we will be objective and

have a right perspective for things of the world.

Namaskar....

 

Pratap

(Pratap Bhatt)

 

 

Dear Vijayji

 

Bhagwat Gita in chapter 16 says that people have either a tendency of

liberation or bondage. These natural defense traits are called DAIVY

and AASURI sampada. DAIVY sampada is about PARITTYAG. This means, not

leaving or abondoning anything but retaining the freewill so that

things do not become addiction and one is aware of self nature of

free-will. This retaining of free will is called PARITTAAG. For

example, a man becomes vegeterian or non-smoker or sugar free or non-

competitive not because non-vegeterian food, smoking or sugar or

competitive mentality are bad or good; but the particular man has now

discovered his own nature and these consumptions are slowly becoming

irrelevant.

 

Consumption is two types. One, personal and two, impersonal. When one

is hungry and eats something alone, this is personal. But if one does

not eat and offers food to his hungry wife or hungry children or

employees to save their lives first, this consumption is indirect or

impersonal. Sri Krishna says that He at one stage is BHOKTA

(consumer) but not directly. And when people eat food, or have peace

and love, this consumption is like happiness of great grand father in

joint family who consumes all happiness by watching a large happy

family, united. This state of mind of impersonal consumer is Sri

Krishna. So Sri Krishna is a consumer (BHOKTA) but not directly. In

another sloka in Bhagwat Gita, Sri Krishna says His devout to serve

all living being (SARVA BHOOT RATE HITAH) because it tastes much

better if consumption is indirect.

 

Sri Krishna is called GOVIND and GOPTA just for same reasoning. He is

secret commission agent for whatever exchanges takes place in living

being. By consuming a sample of exchanges, He gets to know level of

impersonal consumption. Therefore, Krishna bhakt have no ill feeling

towards one another because a part of this feeling like poison goes

to Sri Krishna who is a GOPTA or GOVIND or commission agent or

intermediary of exchanges.

 

Regards

Krishna Gopal

 

 

Somehow I agree with you Mr Vijay!

 

Simi S.

 

 

Jai Shri Krishna,

 

Sadhak Vijayji appears to be confused and somewhat scared of

accepting simple and logical steps suggested by Swamiji for

fulfillment of the very objective for which the human life has been

given. I will surely contribute in the deliberations but before that

I am reminded of a short story which I want to share with Sadhaks.

 

There was a married couple residing together for 6-7 years.

 

One evening wife said to the husband - Look I am fed up now with

you. I am not happy with the care which you are taking of me. Last

month you promised a Jhumka (jewellery) for me, but you never bought

it for me. I am not enjoying your company anymore. I have selected a

new companion for me who will take me away with him tomorrow morning

at 8 AM. Till tomorrow morning I am yours and thereafter, Good Bye!

We have met in this life, please do not meet me again here or in the

heavens.

 

Husband was stunned. He pleaded, said he would get two Jhumkas

instead of one and a good dress as well. He said - Please don't leave

me. How the neighbors, the society will look toward me and see me?

Please! I am sorry.

 

But wife was adamant. He tried his level best to convince her but

could not succeed. It was 11 pm in the winter night. They were living

in a small village with 100/150 houses. Suddenly husband went on the

roof top of the house and started calling - Villagers... Villagers

Pls come and gather around now. 15/20 people came and asked him as to

the matter.

 

Husband said- I have decided to divorce my wife. Villagers pls note.

 

Now wife kept on uttering - I left, I left I left him first - but no

one heard her.

 

The villagers asked- any other thing. Husband said - No Thank you, I

just wanted to keep you all posted. You may go now.

 

When he returned to the bed room from the roof top, wife told - you

are a very bad person, a liar - I left you and you told villagers

that you left me ! Explain !

 

Husband said - Look I tried to convince you a lot, but you did not

agree. Then why I should lower my moustache ! ! ! Before you leave

me, I have left you !

 

So Vijayji - why we should lower our moustache ? Before this world,

these relatives, this body, this money, this wealth, this health,

this affluence, this status, this power, these rights, this beauty,

this youth, these abilities, this position, these circumstances,

these situations, these thoughts, etc leave us, why we should not

leave them? Are they not leaving us? Has not your childhood left you?

Is not your body continuously leaving you? If you have to be with a

particular relative for 30 years and you have lived with him / her

already for 1 year, has not he/she gone away already by that one

year? Is not that relationship drifting every second away from you?

 

What are you waiting for ? Who has asked you to leave them ? But

can't you even accept the simple fact that they are not yours? Are

they not leaving you continuously ? Any doubt on that ? What is wrong

in accepting a fact of life ? Can you deny this fact?

 

So think Vijayji. Why you should lower your moustache ? She is going

to leave you most certainly. Definitely. Why don't you leave her?

 

Narayana Narayana

 

Rajendra J Bohra

--------------------------------

 

 

Hari Om

Re NOTHING IS MINE

 

At the outset I must state that there is no need for you, Vijayji,

to worry excessively for the world. You have expressed rather too

much of a worry for the world. Believe me, the world is not going to

turn upside down, or come to a grinding halt, if you accept any or

all of the suggestions contained in the Article referred by you ! ! !

On the contrary it shall become far far better for you ! It is too

big a world to worry. An individual like you or me is too too small

to worry for it.There are systems and procedures, laws , which govern

the workings of the world and the activities of each and every

creature of this world. When our kindselves were not there in this

world say 100 years before, then also this world was working and when

we shall be consigned to the flames say after maximum 100 years ,

then also the world will remain. We therefore should worry about our

salvation, our interests, our goal rather than taking the onerous

responsibility of wondering as to how the world will work if we

follow " Nothing is Mine " etc. or what shall be the fate if everybody

starts doing desireless actions or start saying- Nothing is Mine.

Your job is to find out first whether the statement is correct or

not ! Let the world go how it is going so far. Reasonable ?.

 

Saints have said:-

 

Tere Baave Jo kare Bhalo Buro Sansaar, Narain tu Baith ke Apna Bhuvan

Buhaar

(You damn care what the world is doing – Good or Bad. You should

concentrate on cleaning your own house)

 

Hence you should concentrate on what is your responsibility, your

duty, your role, your liability, your goal, your betterment, your

improvement, your interest, your benefit, your development ! I let

you think that way. You may ask me why I have stated so, when nothing

is " yours " . I know you will not ask it. You have understood.

 

Anything illogical so far? Any thing which is confusing ? Anything

which is unclear?

 

Feel free to first deliberate upon the aforesaid. Then we shall move

to the first acceptance – NOTHING IS MINE . Kindly be free, open,

and active in deliberations. Be assured that in such deliberations in

the end only the TRUTH PREVAILS ! Have that belief in you !

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

 

--

 

, " sadhak_insight "

<sadhak_insight wrote:

>

>

> It is so confusing.

> If everybody follows " Nothing Is Mine " and " I Do not need anything "

> and specially " I do not have any relationship with anybody " then

how

> will the world work?

> The saints are able to do sainthood because there are people who

pay

> for them.

> Do you have a blog or area where people can discuss these thoughts?

>

> Thanks

> Vijay Aggraval

> -------------------

>

> On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 10:39 AM, sadhak_insight

> <sadhak_insight wrote:

>

> 2nd July, 2008, Wednesday

> Aashaad Krishna Chaturdashi, Vikram Samvat 2065, Budhvar

>

> Every human being is completely independent, powerful, capable and

> eligible in his salvation (kalyaan). The reason is that when God

> gives human body to jeeva (embodied soul), he also gives to him the

> independence, power, capability and eligibility for his salvation

> (kalyaan).

>

> Now the question arises, what one should do for the same? The

answer

> is that if a person firmly accepts the following four things then

> his kalyaan is certain :-

>

> 1. Nothing is Mine.

> 2. I do not need anything.

> 3. I do not have any relationship with anybody.

> 4. Only God is my own.

>

> The fundamental fault is to assume " mineness " with the temporary

> worldly things. From this fault alone all other faults arise. In

> fact in this entire universe not even a thing like hair is ours.

> Thereforth as soon as we accept " nothing is mine " - there comes

> faultlessness in us and we instantly become " dharmatma " (a pure

holy

> soul).

>

> When nothing is ours, then what is there to desire? Hence as soon

we

> accept- " I do not need anything " , we become " nishkaam " (desireless)

> and henceforth a " Yogi " as you acquire Equanimity. - " samatvam yog

> uchyate " (Gita 2: 48)

>

> The essential self (svaroop) of every human being is " asang "

> (naturally detached). Therefore as soon as we decline to accept any

> relationship with any body or any thing that comes together and

> later departs, we realise our self proven, obvious disassociation

or

> detachment. And as soon as we realise our obvious detachment, we

> become " jnani " (knowledgeable).

>

> We are essentially a part of God - Gita 15:7. Hence only God is

> ours. Nobody else is ours. As soon as we accept our mine-ness with

> God, we become " Bhakta " (devotee of God).

>

> A human being's kalyaan (salvation) is only vested in his being

> Dharmatma Yogi (pure holy soul, with equanimity and free of all

> desires), in being Detached and in being a Devotee of God.

> Therefore it is a spiritual aspirant's duty that he accept these

> four worthy facts with a firm conviction. Then his salvation is

> definite.

>

> From " Maanav Matra ke kalyaan ke liye " in Hindi pg 69/70, by Swami

> Ramsukhdasji

>

> Ram Ram

> --------------------------------

> GUIDELINES FOR POSTING A RESPONSE:

>

> 1. The group is focused on the Holy Gitaji, therefore, only

> responses which further clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will

be

> posted.

>

> 2. Making reference of Gitaji shloka is highly encouraged - at

least

> once in the response. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or

> other scriptures to substantiate your response.

>

> 3. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting

> sadhaka's time. Under no circustance the answer should exceed say

> one (book) page at the most (500 words or so) 3-4 paragraphs.

>

> 4. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the

> extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas

>

> 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only.

>

> 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other

> organizations.

>

> 7. Complete reproduction of texts from any book is strongly

> discouraged, however references may be made of the book or author

> (but not links to other sites).

>

> 8. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone

> number, address etc.

>

> 9. Please do not address the response to a particular individual

> since the message is going to the entire group.

>

> 10. Due to the large readership, only those responses will be

posted

> which are in line with the general philosophy of taking Shrimad

> Bhagavad Gita as the reference.

>

> 11. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if content

> is unclear for distribution or not directly related to the question

> being asked.

>

> 12. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth,

> westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use of only

> Sanskrit words, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit

> bracketed wherever possible.

>

> 13. Any personal remarks over the knowledge of any sadhak or about

> the

> stage at which any sadhak is standing in his quest / sadhna /

> spiritual journey - must not be included in your posting.''

>

> 14. There should not be any sarcasm towards fellow sadhaks in this

> spiritual learning and sharing.

>

>

> MODERATOR

> Ram Ram

>

[Guest guest]

Question: If everybody follows " Nothing Is Mine " and " I Do not need

anything " and specially " I do not have any relationship with anybody "

then how will the world work? The saints are able to do sainthood

because there are people who pay for them. Do you have a blog or

area where people can discuss these thoughts? Vijay Aggraval

---

 

Narayan Narayan,

 

May you attain salvation

You have not created this world, it's functioning is not your responsibility.

This world is perishing every moment, in that you have no control. Why are you

unnecessarily and uselessly troubled by these things? You have not understood

the inner sentiments of Swamiji's points. He who does not understand properly,

he becomes a master of half and incomplete knowledge. He who, in spite of

knowing, if he does not give up (sacrifice) the unreal (perishing, temporary),

that is one of the greatest losses.

 

R. C Vyas

 

 

Hari Om

 

Re Nothing is Mine

 

I fully agree with Pratapji Bhatt. Swamiji never asked anyone to leave the house

or relationships etc. Change is needed inside by way of acceptance of truth !

Change is needed at " assumption level " - not in outer conduct/behaviour. We are

sufferring because of wrong assumptions. We are confused because we have not

accepted the truth inside our heart.

 

What is the truth? Truth is that- NOTHING IS MINE !

 

What is " mine " ? A thing/body can be stated to be " mine " if we have independent

control over it; if it is born with us only and remains always with us, and when

we are not there it departs with us only. ( If a thing is " mine " then what is it

doing here in this world after I am dead? It is " mine " - how then it can be of

others?) Then only it can be ours - or there is any other way of something being

ours? ( Vijayji please deliberate here- Come On! ) A thing which meets us and

later departs - how can that thing be ours? How can any sane mind call that

thing to be ours, which from the very moment of connection with you is

disconnecting from you? (Vijayji- can you give any examples of any thing which

has different characteristics? Please enlighten!)

 

If body is " yours " , then don't allow it to fall sick. Let it never grow old! At

least don't allow it to die ! ! Can you ensure that ? ( Vijayji -can you ensure

that ?) If you cannot, then how can you assume it is yours ? Is body coming

nearer to you every passing second or going away from you every moment ? How it

is yours if it is going away from you every second ?

 

What is dishonesty? You are called " dishonest " , if you claim something to be

yours while in fact it is not yours. Is there any other way in which dishonesty

can be defined? If we call this body, these worldly things, etc to be ours then

- are we honest or dishonest ? ? Deliberate Vijayji here on these points! Come

on ! ! Consider these written words as blog only !

 

What is reality? The fact is that this body, mind, intellect, ego, these worldly

things, situations, status, wealth, health, affluence, relatives - all -

everything which changes- everything except Paramatma / Self/ Conscience :-

 

1 They are not yours !

 

2 They are not for you also!

 

3 They have been given to you for a predetermined time !

 

4.They shall be taken back from you !

 

Now ponder upon the above discussion. Ask as many questions as you can. Argue

till you don't get convinced or till you don't convince me - on the aforesaid

facts. Then we shall resume tomorrow, further in the matter.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

-

There is need to understand that there are two identities in the question below.

Unfortunately, we refuse to distinguish between these two identities. These are

the 'mind' and the 'body'. Having understood this basic issue, it is easy to

find an answer.

 

" Nothing is mine, I need nothing, I have no relationship " are all a function of

the mind. When Gitaji says these words, it is to highlight that there should be

no attachment with the world.

 

Doing things in the world are a function of body. When Gitaji says these words,

it is to highlight that 'Kartavya Karma' should continue to be performed.

 

I hope this will help Vijayji find an answer.

 

A.H.Dalmia

 

 

-

 

Ram Ram,

Vijayji has asked good question. However, one thing needs to be

understood that this world is created by Krishna and is run by divine

mother with the wishes of the supreme God (Shri Krishna) as it is his

leela. Therefore, Shri Krishna very well knows that if all people

follow his principles, there would not be any universe. As long as

the world exists there will be beings which would not follow these

principles. But what we need to focus upon is to follow his

principles in the Gita instead of worrying about what happens if all

follows. That is Shri Krishna's problem not our problem.

 

Ram Ram

Sudhir Kalra

 

-

I agree with the question, understand it too but the problem lies in

implementing it fully. Yes fully, at times I do so and when I do so,

I feel happy, away from the tensions and sorrows of the world. But

don't know how I miss the track and again I fall in the well of

ignorance. This cycle goes on and on. I have used the

word 'implement', actually it's wrong, every thing happens on

itself. But since the situation is not permanent though I don't have

any doubts, I have used this word.

 

Goenka

-

On a personal note, when I started to read Bhagwat Gita, the

question in mind was whether I become Sanyasi and abondon many of

actvities but it was in fact an explanation of WORK and worshipping

Sri Krishna only by WORK. By not possessiveness, WORK becomes more

objective and transparent and income level rises. The money or

increased ability is not interference but a resource like water or

earth which is in hand of NISHKAAM KARMI.

 

In the Bhagwat Gita, I learnt 'updrishta anumanta ch... ' and this

is enough of my conviction and most practical. Slowly, I got

understanding of more words and ideas. So, the question of

livelihood, and success and excellence are not opposed to

renunciation or Sannyaas.

Regards

K G

(Krishna Gopal)

-------------------------------

 

In response to Vijayi's question, my humble attempts to offer a few

thoughts,

 

So often in life, we are not able to hold onto various

assets. Money isn't there for a car payment, the car is repossessed. No moeny

for apartment rent, one has to go and stay with a

relative, something is stolen, as a wallet etc. One who truly knows, is not

disturbed. He is equipoised, as the understanding that " these things are not

mine " has become realized knowledge. The awareness that, try as we may, we are

not the ultimate controller of all that happens, is a very high level of

understanding. We should also know, that if in our heart the desire has awakened

to be detached from worldly things, and develop that intimate, loving

relationship with God, then the Lord in the heart will hear that desire.

 

Being a renunciate doesn't necessarily entail living the

life of a wandering mendicant with no possessions....it means to understand that

nothing is this world is truly ours. " Ours " is only the desire to serve the

Lord, or serve our own whims. Whatever has been put into our care, use it as

much as possible to glorify and serve the Lord, whether it is our children,

wealth, our home, our intelligence....whatever we have should be used to serve

Sri Krsna (or however we call the Lord)

 

The sadhak lives on two levels, one is the internal understanding, that nothing

is mine, save and except the desire to serve the

Lord, and then the external awareness, according to one's place and status in

life. The internal awareness, if truly on the

level of realization (jnana) will constantly manifest in external

dealings, for instance, if one is externally somewhat well-off, with a little

money in the pocket, and a beggar comes, needing some food, one who is fully

aware of his own " non-ownership " will be quite willing to give in charity, if

able, whereas one who thinks, " this is mine, I worked hard for it " will not so

willingly give.

 

my dear Vijayji, truly, without putting our relationship

with the Lord first, our lives are wasted. Those who have dedicated their lives

to helping give this knowledge, of simple living, high thinking, of making the

Lord the center of our worship rather than our own bodies and minds, they are

providing the greatest service to humanity. Can we have even the basic needs

of a human being, such as food grains and water, without the mercy of the Lord?

No.

Whatever we have is His mercy and kindness, and we should constantly

be striving to re-awaken our relationship with Him. That is gratitude, not that

we take food, clothing, sunlight, etc....and ignore that Person who is giving us

these things.

 

Hoping my words have not offended anyone,

Mahalaksmi Dasi

 

--

, " sadhak_insight "

<sadhak_insight wrote:

>

> Shree Hari

> Ram Ram

>

> FROM MODERATOR:

>

> Dear Divine Sadhaks,

>

> Vijayji has posed a wonderful question that will benefit many of

us !

>

> Question: If everybody follows " Nothing Is Mine " and " I Do not

need

> anything " and specially " I do not have any relationship with

anybody "

> then how will the world work? The saints are able to do sainthood

> because there are people who pay for them. Do you have a blog or

> area where people can discuss these thoughts? Vijay Aggraval

>

> I appeal / encourage you all to not be passive by-standers, but to

> step up to the challenge of the question being asked. Let us all

> take this divine opportunity, to carefully and attentively review

the

> message from Swamiji, the question and the responses so far. If

there

> is any doubts, to bring it forward to the group.

>

> I encourage Vijayji, Simiji and all others that have expressed

> concern on similar or related topics in the past; to name a few -

> Madan Gupta, Anilji Bhanot, Vavamenonji, and any others to

> deliberate / respond with your very brief answers. Vijayji, since

we

> do not have a blog at this time, you may react from time to time

more

> actively, by asking counter questions, feeling free to participate

in

> full, to gain clarification of any doubts that you may have

related

> to the topic being discussed.

>

> We shall allow maximum time span for this question until doubts of

> sadhaks are clarified. In fact, there will be no new questions

> posted till this question has reached to a logical conclusion. I

> therefore expect that all sadhaks will be fully engaged in this

> discussion. Such questions / answers can be transforming.

>

> Thank you all for this Jnana ganga !

>

> From Gita Talk Moderator

> Ram Ram

>

> -

-

>

> Hari Om

>

> The apprehension as to whether the world will work or not denotes

a

> presumption that the entire world is " driven by desires " only.

There

> can not be any desireless actions at all and if the desireless

> actions are resorted to by anybody, the world comes to a grinding

> halt - at least for that body ! Too over confident an observation

> indeed !

>

> The observation reg the Saints is too bad - unbelievably bad. Who

can

> pay for Saints? No body can ever pay for them or repay them for

what

> they give to humanity at large. Judgement cannot be passed if

there

> is a question/doubt.

>

> Even without face to face interaction, the subject can be

discussed

> and grasped - if we utilise our power " to accept/believe " and " to

> know " correctly. You know that you have these powers. Hence kindly

> now position yourself with an open, receptive, comprehending,

> willing, ready to understand, logical, rationale, scientific,

> patient, serious and impartial (equanimous) mind set and follow

what

> all sadhaks respond pursuant to your question. I will too

contribute

> from time to time.

>

> You of course will have ample opportunities of expressing your

views,

> of counter arguing , etc. You may even respond against each and

every

> observation given by various Sadhaks of this Gita Talk Group. We

> shall definitely make an effort to convince you - by sheer power

of

> the truth !

>

> If you are ready and have power of belief in you, then first

believe

> that in such deliberations ultimately the truth prevails. You will

> have to be patient, though. Believe me, your question otherwise is

> excellent and will help many. The answers will be eye openers.

>

> Jai Shree Krishna

>

> Vyas N B

>

>

> Dear Sadhus, Master!

>

> If one takes the literal meaning of " nothing is mine " or " I don't

> have any relationship with anybody " , it will sound confusing.

> However, these statements asks us to develop and live with such

> inner attitude when dealing with world. Obviously we all are

> interdependent on one another, rather, this entire universe works

as

> though it is one system. We all need the basic minimum, like food,

> shelter, clothing, and may be few others for survival. As can be

> seen, these require us to function harmoniously in society.

>

> What happens is that we get attached to " me " and mineness becomes

so

> real, so important to us that we forget our interdependencies,

> duties, righteousness etc and end up developing greed, envy,

jealousy

> and other negative emotions. This leads us to suffering.

> Swamiji's message below is very clear: In order to free ourselves

> from suffering, we need to be detached from the things of the

world.

> As made by God, we are complete in ourselves inwardly, we just

need

> to realize it by our inner attitude suggested here.

>

> To do so would require me to live and deal with world with an

inner

> attitude as if nothing is mine. When established firmly in this

> attitude, I will realize the truth of other statements of

Swamiji: " I

> have no relationship with anyone " , " I don't need anything " , " Only

God

> is mine "

>

> One doesn't need to avoid or escape from the world or things of

the

> world which will clearly indicate aversions same as attachments

and

> continuation of suffering. However, one sees God in all(God is

mine

> in this sense), is filled with only love, compassion and serves

all.

> After all when God takes care of such a one as promised in Gita

9:22,

> (.....Yoga kshemam vahamyaham), He does it through people and

nature.

> Such a one, while not selfishly related to anyone, is truly

related

> to all as if they are one.

>

> In summary, Swamiji asks us that while outwardly being

> interdependent, be unattached and not depend on anyone or anything

> inwardly for our own comforts, and happiness. This is because in

> doing so, we will be inevitably unhappy due to changing nature of

> world. In this way when we are detached, we will be objective and

> have a right perspective for things of the world.

> Namaskar....

>

> Pratap

> (Pratap Bhatt)

>

>

> Dear Vijayji

>

> Bhagwat Gita in chapter 16 says that people have either a tendency

of

> liberation or bondage. These natural defense traits are called

DAIVY

> and AASURI sampada. DAIVY sampada is about PARITTYAG. This means,

not

> leaving or abondoning anything but retaining the freewill so that

> things do not become addiction and one is aware of self nature of

> free-will. This retaining of free will is called PARITTAAG. For

> example, a man becomes vegeterian or non-smoker or sugar free or

non-

> competitive not because non-vegeterian food, smoking or sugar or

> competitive mentality are bad or good; but the particular man has

now

> discovered his own nature and these consumptions are slowly

becoming

> irrelevant.

>

> Consumption is two types. One, personal and two, impersonal. When

one

> is hungry and eats something alone, this is personal. But if one

does

> not eat and offers food to his hungry wife or hungry children or

> employees to save their lives first, this consumption is indirect

or

> impersonal. Sri Krishna says that He at one stage is BHOKTA

> (consumer) but not directly. And when people eat food, or have

peace

> and love, this consumption is like happiness of great grand father

in

> joint family who consumes all happiness by watching a large happy

> family, united. This state of mind of impersonal consumer is Sri

> Krishna. So Sri Krishna is a consumer (BHOKTA) but not directly.

In

> another sloka in Bhagwat Gita, Sri Krishna says His devout to

serve

> all living being (SARVA BHOOT RATE HITAH) because it tastes much

> better if consumption is indirect.

>

> Sri Krishna is called GOVIND and GOPTA just for same reasoning. He

is

> secret commission agent for whatever exchanges takes place in

living

> being. By consuming a sample of exchanges, He gets to know level

of

> impersonal consumption. Therefore, Krishna bhakt have no ill

feeling

> towards one another because a part of this feeling like poison

goes

> to Sri Krishna who is a GOPTA or GOVIND or commission agent or

> intermediary of exchanges.

>

> Regards

> Krishna Gopal

>

>

> Somehow I agree with you Mr Vijay!

>

> Simi S.

>

>

> Jai Shri Krishna,

>

> Sadhak Vijayji appears to be confused and somewhat scared of

> accepting simple and logical steps suggested by Swamiji for

> fulfillment of the very objective for which the human life has

been

> given. I will surely contribute in the deliberations but before

that

> I am reminded of a short story which I want to share with Sadhaks.

>

> There was a married couple residing together for 6-7 years.

>

> One evening wife said to the husband - Look I am fed up now with

> you. I am not happy with the care which you are taking of me. Last

> month you promised a Jhumka (jewellery) for me, but you never

bought

> it for me. I am not enjoying your company anymore. I have selected

a

> new companion for me who will take me away with him tomorrow

morning

> at 8 AM. Till tomorrow morning I am yours and thereafter, Good

Bye!

> We have met in this life, please do not meet me again here or in

the

> heavens.

>

> Husband was stunned. He pleaded, said he would get two Jhumkas

> instead of one and a good dress as well. He said - Please don't

leave

> me. How the neighbors, the society will look toward me and see me?

> Please! I am sorry.

>

> But wife was adamant. He tried his level best to convince her but

> could not succeed. It was 11 pm in the winter night. They were

living

> in a small village with 100/150 houses. Suddenly husband went on

the

> roof top of the house and started calling - Villagers... Villagers

> Pls come and gather around now. 15/20 people came and asked him as

to

> the matter.

>

> Husband said- I have decided to divorce my wife. Villagers pls

note.

>

> Now wife kept on uttering - I left, I left I left him first - but

no

> one heard her.

>

> The villagers asked- any other thing. Husband said - No Thank

you, I

> just wanted to keep you all posted. You may go now.

>

> When he returned to the bed room from the roof top, wife told -

you

> are a very bad person, a liar - I left you and you told villagers

> that you left me ! Explain !

>

> Husband said - Look I tried to convince you a lot, but you did not

> agree. Then why I should lower my moustache ! ! ! Before you leave

> me, I have left you !

>

> So Vijayji - why we should lower our moustache ? Before this

world,

> these relatives, this body, this money, this wealth, this health,

> this affluence, this status, this power, these rights, this

beauty,

> this youth, these abilities, this position, these circumstances,

> these situations, these thoughts, etc leave us, why we should not

> leave them? Are they not leaving us? Has not your childhood left

you?

> Is not your body continuously leaving you? If you have to be with

a

> particular relative for 30 years and you have lived with him / her

> already for 1 year, has not he/she gone away already by that one

> year? Is not that relationship drifting every second away from you?

>

> What are you waiting for ? Who has asked you to leave them ? But

> can't you even accept the simple fact that they are not yours? Are

> they not leaving you continuously ? Any doubt on that ? What is

wrong

> in accepting a fact of life ? Can you deny this fact?

>

> So think Vijayji. Why you should lower your moustache ? She is

going

> to leave you most certainly. Definitely. Why don't you leave her?

>

> Narayana Narayana

>

> Rajendra J Bohra

> --------------------------------

>

>

> Hari Om

> Re NOTHING IS MINE

>

> At the outset I must state that there is no need for you,

Vijayji,

> to worry excessively for the world. You have expressed rather too

> much of a worry for the world. Believe me, the world is not going

to

> turn upside down, or come to a grinding halt, if you accept any or

> all of the suggestions contained in the Article referred by

you ! ! !

> On the contrary it shall become far far better for you ! It is too

> big a world to worry. An individual like you or me is too too

small

> to worry for it.There are systems and procedures, laws , which

govern

> the workings of the world and the activities of each and every

> creature of this world. When our kindselves were not there in

this

> world say 100 years before, then also this world was working and

when

> we shall be consigned to the flames say after maximum 100 years ,

> then also the world will remain. We therefore should worry about

our

> salvation, our interests, our goal rather than taking the onerous

> responsibility of wondering as to how the world will work if we

> follow " Nothing is Mine " etc. or what shall be the fate if

everybody

> starts doing desireless actions or start saying- Nothing is Mine.

> Your job is to find out first whether the statement is correct or

> not ! Let the world go how it is going so far. Reasonable ?.

>

> Saints have said:-

>

> Tere Baave Jo kare Bhalo Buro Sansaar, Narain tu Baith ke Apna

Bhuvan

> Buhaar

> (You damn care what the world is doing – Good or Bad. You should

> concentrate on cleaning your own house)

>

> Hence you should concentrate on what is your responsibility, your

> duty, your role, your liability, your goal, your betterment, your

> improvement, your interest, your benefit, your development ! I let

> you think that way. You may ask me why I have stated so, when

nothing

> is " yours " . I know you will not ask it. You have understood.

>

> Anything illogical so far? Any thing which is confusing ? Anything

> which is unclear?

>

> Feel free to first deliberate upon the aforesaid. Then we shall

move

> to the first acceptance – NOTHING IS MINE . Kindly be free, open,

> and active in deliberations. Be assured that in such deliberations

in

> the end only the TRUTH PREVAILS ! Have that belief in you !

>

> Jai Shree Krishna

>

> Vyas N B

>

> -

-

>

> , " sadhak_insight "

> <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> >

> >

> > It is so confusing.

> > If everybody follows " Nothing Is Mine " and " I Do not need

anything "

> > and specially " I do not have any relationship with anybody " then

> how

> > will the world work?

> > The saints are able to do sainthood because there are people who

> pay

> > for them.

> > Do you have a blog or area where people can discuss these

thoughts?

> >

> > Thanks

> > Vijay Aggraval

> > -------------------

> >

> > On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 10:39 AM, sadhak_insight

> > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> >

> > 2nd July, 2008, Wednesday

> > Aashaad Krishna Chaturdashi, Vikram Samvat 2065, Budhvar

> >

> > Every human being is completely independent, powerful, capable

and

> > eligible in his salvation (kalyaan). The reason is that when God

> > gives human body to jeeva (embodied soul), he also gives to him

the

> > independence, power, capability and eligibility for his

salvation

> > (kalyaan).

> >

> > Now the question arises, what one should do for the same? The

> answer

> > is that if a person firmly accepts the following four things

then

> > his kalyaan is certain :-

> >

> > 1. Nothing is Mine.

> > 2. I do not need anything.

> > 3. I do not have any relationship with anybody.

> > 4. Only God is my own.

> >

> > The fundamental fault is to assume " mineness " with the temporary

> > worldly things. From this fault alone all other faults arise. In

> > fact in this entire universe not even a thing like hair is ours.

> > Thereforth as soon as we accept " nothing is mine " - there comes

> > faultlessness in us and we instantly become " dharmatma " (a pure

> holy

> > soul).

> >

> > When nothing is ours, then what is there to desire? Hence as

soon

> we

> > accept- " I do not need anything " , we become " nishkaam "

(desireless)

> > and henceforth a " Yogi " as you acquire Equanimity. - " samatvam

yog

> > uchyate " (Gita 2: 48)

> >

> > The essential self (svaroop) of every human being is " asang "

> > (naturally detached). Therefore as soon as we decline to accept

any

> > relationship with any body or any thing that comes together and

> > later departs, we realise our self proven, obvious

disassociation

> or

> > detachment. And as soon as we realise our obvious detachment, we

> > become " jnani " (knowledgeable).

> >

> > We are essentially a part of God - Gita 15:7. Hence only God is

> > ours. Nobody else is ours. As soon as we accept our mine-ness

with

> > God, we become " Bhakta " (devotee of God).

> >

> > A human being's kalyaan (salvation) is only vested in his being

> > Dharmatma Yogi (pure holy soul, with equanimity and free of all

> > desires), in being Detached and in being a Devotee of God.

> > Therefore it is a spiritual aspirant's duty that he accept these

> > four worthy facts with a firm conviction. Then his salvation is

> > definite.

> >

> > From " Maanav Matra ke kalyaan ke liye " in Hindi pg 69/70, by

Swami

> > Ramsukhdasji

> >

> > Ram Ram

> > --------------------------------

> > GUIDELINES FOR POSTING A RESPONSE:

> >

> > 1. The group is focused on the Holy Gitaji, therefore, only

> > responses which further clarify the understanding of Gitaji,

will

> be

> > posted.

> >

> > 2. Making reference of Gitaji shloka is highly encouraged - at

> least

> > once in the response. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or

> > other scriptures to substantiate your response.

> >

> > 3. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting

> > sadhaka's time. Under no circustance the answer should exceed

say

> > one (book) page at the most (500 words or so) 3-4 paragraphs.

> >

> > 4. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the

> > extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas

> >

> > 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only.

> >

> > 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other

> > organizations.

> >

> > 7. Complete reproduction of texts from any book is strongly

> > discouraged, however references may be made of the book or

author

> > (but not links to other sites).

> >

> > 8. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone

> > number, address etc.

> >

> > 9. Please do not address the response to a particular individual

> > since the message is going to the entire group.

> >

> > 10. Due to the large readership, only those responses will be

> posted

> > which are in line with the general philosophy of taking Shrimad

> > Bhagavad Gita as the reference.

> >

> > 11. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if

content

> > is unclear for distribution or not directly related to the

question

> > being asked.

> >

> > 12. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth,

> > westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use of only

> > Sanskrit words, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit

> > bracketed wherever possible.

> >

> > 13. Any personal remarks over the knowledge of any sadhak or

about

> > the

> > stage at which any sadhak is standing in his quest / sadhna /

> > spiritual journey - must not be included in your posting.''

> >

> > 14. There should not be any sarcasm towards fellow sadhaks in

this

> > spiritual learning and sharing.

> >

> >

> > MODERATOR

> > Ram Ram

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Question: If everybody follows " Nothing Is Mine " and " I Do not need

anything " and specially " I do not have any relationship with anybody "

then how will the world work? The saints are able to do sainthood

because there are people who pay for them. Do you have a blog or

area where people can discuss these thoughts? Vijay Aggraval

 

--

 

First of all, thanks to everyone who took time to respond to my

question and try to help. I'm really overwhelmed by the desire of all

the people in this group to help a fellow person.

 

I agree and understand the points made by all, in this post.

Spiritual journey is a long process. I think it so happens that sometimes the

mind wanders and feelings change and one vents out. That is the time when one

should show Restrain and Believe.

 

My humble thanks again to all of you for your responses.

 

Vijay Aggraval

--

Hari Om

 

In the previous discussion we arrived at the conclusion that

(i) Worldly things/ people are not ours

(ii) They are not for us also

(iii) They have been given to us and

(iv) They will leave us.

 

Question is now what we should do? Shall we throw father / mother/money etc out

of house saying - you are not ours/nor for us? How to live practically in life

keeping in mind the above fundamentals ?

 

Here is a very practical, simple, logical, scientific, right and Scriptures /

Gita approved solution :-

 

Imagine you are living in Rishikesh. Some close friend visits you there on the

way to Badrinath. He has excess cash with him, which he doesn't want to carry to

Badrinath. He requests you to keep excess cash with you. He would come tomorrow

and take back his money. You keep the money and let him go.

 

Now consider your status vis a vis that money lying in your cupboard !

 

Is it yours? No !

 

Is it for you? No!

 

Has it not been given to you for the time being ? Yes !

 

Will it not be taken away from you tomorrow when your friend returns from

Badrinath? Yes !

 

Now what can you do? You can merely " serve " the money - By keeping it safe! You

may even cancel your late night programme of going out/ next day programme so

that if your friend comes earlier you can return the money. You can only become

extra vigilant for safety of that money. What else can you do, except providing

service ?

 

That is all we have to do with the worldly things we have got ! Can we consider

that money to be ours? No. If we do that or utilise that for self or think that

now it is permanently ours because it is lying in our cupboard, become proud of

it, start thinking that the friend may not come back - then what shall be our

fate ? What will you get if you think/do so ? Sorrows, struggle, lack of peace

.... What else? That is exactly what we get when we become dishonest with the

ownership of these worldly things.

 

What an easy and practical solution! What is difficulty in not considering that

money that belongs to the friend as not yours / not for you / received

temporarily / to be returned?

 

Vijayji, now share your thoughts on this! Can the world turn upside down if you

return the money back to your friend when he comes back from Badrinath ?

 

Serve the world with the things you have got without forming any sense of

" mine-ness " with those things. In the end these things will depart - either

these things will not be there or you will not be there or both will not be

there ! Guaranteed !

 

Sadhaks now can list out practical difficulties in implementing the above in

practical life.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

--

Nothing Is Mine

 

Doubt over this statement is arising because the reader is contemplating on it

by considering the notion that 'I am this body'. To understand this statement

one has to differentiate himself from the body. The word 'Nothing' here implies

body, mind and intellect. By assuming this false relationship with body we get

bonded to the entire world because body is just a small sample of this world. So

those who don't want this bondage anymore the above statement is for them.

 

To differentiate oneself from body the most important thing is to give

importance to the fact that we (Self) never changes and the body never ceases to

change. You say that I was kid. Then I was a young guy. Now I am an old man. The

body has always changed. But has it changed suddenly after a gap of every 25

years? No. So has it changed after every 1 year? No. So has it changed after

every 1 month? No. So has it changed after every week? (i.e. every week it will

remain as it is and then it will change after the given period) No. So has it

changed after every 1 day? No. So has it changed after 1 hour? No. So has it

changed after every 1 minute? No. The truth is that it is changing every second.

It takes time to read and think over it but it does not take any time for

changing.

 

Now a big question arises. Who knows this change? It certainly cannot be body

because it is the subject itself. So does mind and intellect know that change?

No. Because like body they are also a subject which can be perceived, which can

be known. We all know that the thoughts which used to occupy our mind in

adolescent stage no longer come to our mind today. Similarly our decisions have

also changed. Ignorant, intelligent, remembering, forgetting etc. are different

stages of intellect. But one who can perceive these different stages of

intellect is beyond it.

Similarly we can also differentiate our Self from ego i.e. I.

Try to observe these 4 things. When you say 'I am, You are, This is and That is'

so all these 4 things can be seen under some light (knowledge). That light is

our Swaroop(Self). In that there is no difference of I, you etc. So The Self is

Gyan Swaroop.

 

The Self is Immortal.

As stated above, our existence is not because of this body. Even when the body

was not present we were there and even if the body will not be alive we will

exist (Gita 2:11). We see the body first and then we look at our Self. This is

the biggest mistake. Because the Self comes first and body comes later. Till now

we have taken millions of births and all the bodies have left us. So what's

going to be so new about this body? Will it stay with you? Or will you stay with

it? Saints have said 'Sapana ho javasi Sut Kutumb Dhan Dhaam' - Family, Money

and House will merely be a dream. In fact you even remember a dream but will you

remember all those things which you are now claiming as I and mine? If there is

some custom for remembering it then do you remember that in last life to which

body you referred to as I, to which person, house etc. you addressed him/her as

mine? If not then are you going to remember those things/persons that you are

now claiming to be as I/mine? Then why get attached to them and claim them as

mine?

 

Swamiji has explained all the above topics beautifully in Sadhak-Sanjivani in

Hindi. Please refer to pages -

57-59, 65 - (Gita 2:13) - Our existence is not because of this body

850 - (Gita 13:8) - Stages of ego getting destroyed in spiritual practice

851 - (Gita 13:8) 'I, you, this, that'

865, 866 - (Gita 13:8) The example of 'students sitting one behind each other in

an exam' is just amazing

 

I have given page numbers as per Hindi version.

 

Hare Krishna,

Varun

(Varun Paprunia)

 

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

From Moderator : For those with English version, you make look up the specific

Shloka. For those who understand Hindi the entire Sadhak Sanjivani is online

at:

 

http://www.swamiramsukhdasji.org/swamijibooks/pustak/pustak1/html/SadhakSanjeevn\

i/main.html

 

Ram Ram

---

Vijayji,

Here is something to ponder:

 

Among the worlds mystical tradition it is known that to become one

with The Divine, one has to:

Die to ones (lower)self,(ego mind); Death of ego; Annihilation

(Fana), different ways of expressing the same concept. One famous lady was

taught by by her Guru, an Indian Sufi Saint, " there is nothing but nothingness " ,

when she found THAT nothingness, she was at one with her then dead Guru and her

GOD.

 

B.G. 15.11. The yogis striving (for perfection) behold him dwelling

in the Self; but, the unrefined and unintelligent, even Though striving, see him

not.

 

Sacred books and wise council at this site, can point one in the

right direction. I am not sure where flashy cars, a fine physique, and worldly

status can point you.

 

To the question, '..then how will the world work?'.

There is a Zen saying " Before enlightenment, chop wood, carry water.

After enlightenment, chop wood, carry water " .

 

And surely the people who offer sustenance to holy people, do it

because they have reverence for them! An act of Divine Love.

 

With Respect and Divine Love,

 

Mike

(Mike Keenor)

-

 

 

>

> Narayan Narayan,

>

> May you attain salvation

> You have not created this world, it's functioning is not your

responsibility. This world is perishing every moment, in that you

have no control. Why are you unnecessarily and uselessly troubled

by these things? You have not understood the inner sentiments of

Swamiji's points. He who does not understand properly, he becomes a

master of half and incomplete knowledge. He who, in spite of

knowing, if he does not give up (sacrifice) the unreal (perishing,

temporary), that is one of the greatest losses.

>

> R. C Vyas

>

>

> Hari Om

>

> Re Nothing is Mine

>

> I fully agree with Pratapji Bhatt. Swamiji never asked anyone to

leave the house or relationships etc. Change is needed inside by way

of acceptance of truth ! Change is needed at " assumption level " -

not in outer conduct/behaviour. We are sufferring because of wrong

assumptions. We are confused because we have not accepted the truth

inside our heart.

>

> What is the truth? Truth is that- NOTHING IS MINE !

>

> What is " mine " ? A thing/body can be stated to be " mine " if we have

independent control over it; if it is born with us only and remains

always with us, and when we are not there it departs with us only. (

If a thing is " mine " then what is it doing here in this world after

I am dead? It is " mine " - how then it can be of others?) Then only

it can be ours - or there is any other way of something being ours?

( Vijayji please deliberate here- Come On! ) A thing which meets us

and later departs - how can that thing be ours? How can any sane

mind call that thing to be ours, which from the very moment of

connection with you is disconnecting from you? (Vijayji- can you

give any examples of any thing which has different characteristics?

Please enlighten!)

>

> If body is " yours " , then don't allow it to fall sick. Let it

never grow old! At least don't allow it to die ! ! Can you ensure

that ? ( Vijayji -can you ensure that ?) If you cannot, then how

can you assume it is yours ? Is body coming nearer to you every

passing second or going away from you every moment ? How it is yours

if it is going away from you every second ?

>

> What is dishonesty? You are called " dishonest " , if you claim

something to be yours while in fact it is not yours. Is there any

other way in which dishonesty can be defined? If we call this body,

these worldly things, etc to be ours then - are we honest or

dishonest ? ? Deliberate Vijayji here on these points! Come on ! !

Consider these written words as blog only !

>

> What is reality? The fact is that this body, mind, intellect, ego,

these worldly things, situations, status, wealth, health, affluence,

relatives - all - everything which changes- everything except

Paramatma / Self/ Conscience :-

>

> 1 They are not yours !

>

> 2 They are not for you also!

>

> 3 They have been given to you for a predetermined time !

>

> 4.They shall be taken back from you !

>

> Now ponder upon the above discussion. Ask as many questions as you

can. Argue till you don't get convinced or till you don't convince

me - on the aforesaid facts. Then we shall resume tomorrow, further

in the matter.

>

> Jai Shree Krishna

>

> Vyas N B

> -

> There is need to understand that there are two identities in the

question below. Unfortunately, we refuse to distinguish between

these two identities. These are the 'mind' and the 'body'. Having

understood this basic issue, it is easy to find an answer.

>

> " Nothing is mine, I need nothing, I have no relationship " are all

a function of the mind. When Gitaji says these words, it is to

highlight that there should be no attachment with the world.

>

> Doing things in the world are a function of body. When Gitaji says

these words, it is to highlight that 'Kartavya Karma' should

continue to be performed.

>

> I hope this will help Vijayji find an answer.

>

> A.H.Dalmia

>

>

> -

>

> Ram Ram,

> Vijayji has asked good question. However, one thing needs to be

> understood that this world is created by Krishna and is run by

divine

> mother with the wishes of the supreme God (Shri Krishna) as it is

his

> leela. Therefore, Shri Krishna very well knows that if all people

> follow his principles, there would not be any universe. As long as

> the world exists there will be beings which would not follow these

> principles. But what we need to focus upon is to follow his

> principles in the Gita instead of worrying about what happens if

all

> follows. That is Shri Krishna's problem not our problem.

>

> Ram Ram

> Sudhir Kalra

>

> -

> I agree with the question, understand it too but the problem lies

in

> implementing it fully. Yes fully, at times I do so and when I do

so,

> I feel happy, away from the tensions and sorrows of the world. But

> don't know how I miss the track and again I fall in the well of

> ignorance. This cycle goes on and on. I have used the

> word 'implement', actually it's wrong, every thing happens on

> itself. But since the situation is not permanent though I don't

have

> any doubts, I have used this word.

>

> Goenka

> -

> On a personal note, when I started to read Bhagwat Gita, the

> question in mind was whether I become Sanyasi and abondon many of

> actvities but it was in fact an explanation of WORK and worshipping

> Sri Krishna only by WORK. By not possessiveness, WORK becomes more

> objective and transparent and income level rises. The money or

> increased ability is not interference but a resource like water or

> earth which is in hand of NISHKAAM KARMI.

>

> In the Bhagwat Gita, I learnt 'updrishta anumanta ch... ' and this

> is enough of my conviction and most practical. Slowly, I got

> understanding of more words and ideas. So, the question of

> livelihood, and success and excellence are not opposed to

> renunciation or Sannyaas.

> Regards

> K G

> (Krishna Gopal)

> -------------------------------

>

> In response to Vijayi's question, my humble attempts to offer a few

> thoughts,

>

> So often in life, we are not able to hold onto various

> assets. Money isn't there for a car payment, the car is

repossessed. No moeny for apartment rent, one has to go and stay

with a

> relative, something is stolen, as a wallet etc. One who truly

knows, is not disturbed. He is equipoised, as the understanding

that " these things are not mine " has become realized knowledge. The

awareness that, try as we may, we are not the ultimate controller of

all that happens, is a very high level of understanding. We should

also know, that if in our heart the desire has awakened to be

detached from worldly things, and develop that intimate, loving

relationship with God, then the Lord in the heart will hear that

desire.

>

> Being a renunciate doesn't necessarily entail living the

> life of a wandering mendicant with no possessions....it means to

understand that nothing is this world is truly ours. " Ours " is only

the desire to serve the Lord, or serve our own whims. Whatever has

been put into our care, use it as much as possible to glorify and

serve the Lord, whether it is our children, wealth, our home, our

intelligence....whatever we have should be used to serve

> Sri Krsna (or however we call the Lord)

>

> The sadhak lives on two levels, one is the internal understanding,

that nothing is mine, save and except the desire to serve the

> Lord, and then the external awareness, according to one's place

and status in life. The internal awareness, if truly on the

> level of realization (jnana) will constantly manifest in external

> dealings, for instance, if one is externally somewhat well-off,

with a little money in the pocket, and a beggar comes, needing some

food, one who is fully aware of his own " non-ownership " will be

quite willing to give in charity, if able, whereas one who

thinks, " this is mine, I worked hard for it " will not so willingly

give.

>

> my dear Vijayji, truly, without putting our relationship

> with the Lord first, our lives are wasted. Those who have

dedicated their lives to helping give this knowledge, of simple

living, high thinking, of making the Lord the center of our worship

rather than our own bodies and minds, they are providing the

greatest service to humanity. Can we have even the basic needs of

a human being, such as food grains and water, without the mercy of

the Lord? No.

> Whatever we have is His mercy and kindness, and we should

constantly

> be striving to re-awaken our relationship with Him. That is

gratitude, not that we take food, clothing, sunlight, etc....and

ignore that Person who is giving us these things.

>

> Hoping my words have not offended anyone,

> Mahalaksmi Dasi

>

> -

-

> , " sadhak_insight "

> <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> >

> > Shree Hari

> > Ram Ram

> >

> > FROM MODERATOR:

> >

> > Dear Divine Sadhaks,

> >

> > Vijayji has posed a wonderful question that will benefit many of

> us !

> >

> > Question: If everybody follows " Nothing Is Mine " and " I Do not

> need

> > anything " and specially " I do not have any relationship with

> anybody "

> > then how will the world work? The saints are able to do sainthood

> > because there are people who pay for them. Do you have a blog or

> > area where people can discuss these thoughts? Vijay Aggraval

> >

> > I appeal / encourage you all to not be passive by-standers, but

to

> > step up to the challenge of the question being asked. Let us all

> > take this divine opportunity, to carefully and attentively review

> the

> > message from Swamiji, the question and the responses so far. If

> there

> > is any doubts, to bring it forward to the group.

> >

> > I encourage Vijayji, Simiji and all others that have expressed

> > concern on similar or related topics in the past; to name a

few -

> > Madan Gupta, Anilji Bhanot, Vavamenonji, and any others to

> > deliberate / respond with your very brief answers. Vijayji, since

> we

> > do not have a blog at this time, you may react from time to time

> more

> > actively, by asking counter questions, feeling free to

participate

> in

> > full, to gain clarification of any doubts that you may have

> related

> > to the topic being discussed.

> >

> > We shall allow maximum time span for this question until doubts

of

> > sadhaks are clarified. In fact, there will be no new questions

> > posted till this question has reached to a logical conclusion. I

> > therefore expect that all sadhaks will be fully engaged in this

> > discussion. Such questions / answers can be transforming.

> >

> > Thank you all for this Jnana ganga !

> >

> > From Gita Talk Moderator

> > Ram Ram

> >

> > --------------------------------

--

> -

> >

> > Hari Om

> >

> > The apprehension as to whether the world will work or not denotes

> a

> > presumption that the entire world is " driven by desires " only.

> There

> > can not be any desireless actions at all and if the desireless

> > actions are resorted to by anybody, the world comes to a

grinding

> > halt - at least for that body ! Too over confident an

observation

> > indeed !

> >

> > The observation reg the Saints is too bad - unbelievably bad. Who

> can

> > pay for Saints? No body can ever pay for them or repay them for

> what

> > they give to humanity at large. Judgement cannot be passed if

> there

> > is a question/doubt.

> >

> > Even without face to face interaction, the subject can be

> discussed

> > and grasped - if we utilise our power " to accept/believe " and " to

> > know " correctly. You know that you have these powers. Hence

kindly

> > now position yourself with an open, receptive, comprehending,

> > willing, ready to understand, logical, rationale, scientific,

> > patient, serious and impartial (equanimous) mind set and follow

> what

> > all sadhaks respond pursuant to your question. I will too

> contribute

> > from time to time.

> >

> > You of course will have ample opportunities of expressing your

> views,

> > of counter arguing , etc. You may even respond against each and

> every

> > observation given by various Sadhaks of this Gita Talk Group. We

> > shall definitely make an effort to convince you - by sheer power

> of

> > the truth !

> >

> > If you are ready and have power of belief in you, then first

> believe

> > that in such deliberations ultimately the truth prevails. You

will

> > have to be patient, though. Believe me, your question otherwise

is

> > excellent and will help many. The answers will be eye openers.

> >

> > Jai Shree Krishna

> >

> > Vyas N B

> >

> > --------------------------------

-

> > Dear Sadhus, Master!

> >

> > If one takes the literal meaning of " nothing is mine " or " I

don't

> > have any relationship with anybody " , it will sound confusing.

> > However, these statements asks us to develop and live with such

> > inner attitude when dealing with world. Obviously we all are

> > interdependent on one another, rather, this entire universe works

> as

> > though it is one system. We all need the basic minimum, like

food,

> > shelter, clothing, and may be few others for survival. As can be

> > seen, these require us to function harmoniously in society.

> >

> > What happens is that we get attached to " me " and mineness becomes

> so

> > real, so important to us that we forget our interdependencies,

> > duties, righteousness etc and end up developing greed, envy,

> jealousy

> > and other negative emotions. This leads us to suffering.

> > Swamiji's message below is very clear: In order to free ourselves

> > from suffering, we need to be detached from the things of the

> world.

> > As made by God, we are complete in ourselves inwardly, we just

> need

> > to realize it by our inner attitude suggested here.

> >

> > To do so would require me to live and deal with world with an

> inner

> > attitude as if nothing is mine. When established firmly in this

> > attitude, I will realize the truth of other statements of

> Swamiji: " I

> > have no relationship with anyone " , " I don't need anything " , " Only

> God

> > is mine "

> >

> > One doesn't need to avoid or escape from the world or things of

> the

> > world which will clearly indicate aversions same as attachments

> and

> > continuation of suffering. However, one sees God in all(God is

> mine

> > in this sense), is filled with only love, compassion and serves

> all.

> > After all when God takes care of such a one as promised in Gita

> 9:22,

> > (.....Yoga kshemam vahamyaham), He does it through people and

> nature.

> > Such a one, while not selfishly related to anyone, is truly

> related

> > to all as if they are one.

> >

> > In summary, Swamiji asks us that while outwardly being

> > interdependent, be unattached and not depend on anyone or

anything

> > inwardly for our own comforts, and happiness. This is because in

> > doing so, we will be inevitably unhappy due to changing nature of

> > world. In this way when we are detached, we will be objective and

> > have a right perspective for things of the world.

> > Namaskar....

> >

> > Pratap

> > (Pratap Bhatt)

> > --------------------------------

-

> >

> > Dear Vijayji

> >

> > Bhagwat Gita in chapter 16 says that people have either a

tendency

> of

> > liberation or bondage. These natural defense traits are called

> DAIVY

> > and AASURI sampada. DAIVY sampada is about PARITTYAG. This means,

> not

> > leaving or abondoning anything but retaining the freewill so that

> > things do not become addiction and one is aware of self nature of

> > free-will. This retaining of free will is called PARITTAAG. For

> > example, a man becomes vegeterian or non-smoker or sugar free or

> non-

> > competitive not because non-vegeterian food, smoking or sugar or

> > competitive mentality are bad or good; but the particular man has

> now

> > discovered his own nature and these consumptions are slowly

> becoming

> > irrelevant.

> >

> > Consumption is two types. One, personal and two, impersonal. When

> one

> > is hungry and eats something alone, this is personal. But if one

> does

> > not eat and offers food to his hungry wife or hungry children or

> > employees to save their lives first, this consumption is indirect

> or

> > impersonal. Sri Krishna says that He at one stage is BHOKTA

> > (consumer) but not directly. And when people eat food, or have

> peace

> > and love, this consumption is like happiness of great grand

father

> in

> > joint family who consumes all happiness by watching a large happy

> > family, united. This state of mind of impersonal consumer is Sri

> > Krishna. So Sri Krishna is a consumer (BHOKTA) but not directly.

> In

> > another sloka in Bhagwat Gita, Sri Krishna says His devout to

> serve

> > all living being (SARVA BHOOT RATE HITAH) because it tastes much

> > better if consumption is indirect.

> >

> > Sri Krishna is called GOVIND and GOPTA just for same reasoning.

He

> is

> > secret commission agent for whatever exchanges takes place in

> living

> > being. By consuming a sample of exchanges, He gets to know

level

> of

> > impersonal consumption. Therefore, Krishna bhakt have no ill

> feeling

> > towards one another because a part of this feeling like poison

> goes

> > to Sri Krishna who is a GOPTA or GOVIND or commission agent or

> > intermediary of exchanges.

> >

> > Regards

> > Krishna Gopal

> >

> > --------------------------------

-

> > Somehow I agree with you Mr Vijay!

> >

> > Simi S.

> > --------------------------------

-

> >

> > Jai Shri Krishna,

> >

> > Sadhak Vijayji appears to be confused and somewhat scared of

> > accepting simple and logical steps suggested by Swamiji for

> > fulfillment of the very objective for which the human life has

> been

> > given. I will surely contribute in the deliberations but before

> that

> > I am reminded of a short story which I want to share with

Sadhaks.

> >

> > There was a married couple residing together for 6-7 years.

> >

> > One evening wife said to the husband - Look I am fed up now

with

> > you. I am not happy with the care which you are taking of me.

Last

> > month you promised a Jhumka (jewellery) for me, but you never

> bought

> > it for me. I am not enjoying your company anymore. I have

selected

> a

> > new companion for me who will take me away with him tomorrow

> morning

> > at 8 AM. Till tomorrow morning I am yours and thereafter, Good

> Bye!

> > We have met in this life, please do not meet me again here or in

> the

> > heavens.

> >

> > Husband was stunned. He pleaded, said he would get two Jhumkas

> > instead of one and a good dress as well. He said - Please don't

> leave

> > me. How the neighbors, the society will look toward me and see

me?

> > Please! I am sorry.

> >

> > But wife was adamant. He tried his level best to convince her but

> > could not succeed. It was 11 pm in the winter night. They were

> living

> > in a small village with 100/150 houses. Suddenly husband went on

> the

> > roof top of the house and started calling - Villagers...

Villagers

> > Pls come and gather around now. 15/20 people came and asked him

as

> to

> > the matter.

> >

> > Husband said- I have decided to divorce my wife. Villagers pls

> note.

> >

> > Now wife kept on uttering - I left, I left I left him first - but

> no

> > one heard her.

> >

> > The villagers asked- any other thing. Husband said - No Thank

> you, I

> > just wanted to keep you all posted. You may go now.

> >

> > When he returned to the bed room from the roof top, wife told -

> you

> > are a very bad person, a liar - I left you and you told villagers

> > that you left me ! Explain !

> >

> > Husband said - Look I tried to convince you a lot, but you did

not

> > agree. Then why I should lower my moustache ! ! ! Before you

leave

> > me, I have left you !

> >

> > So Vijayji - why we should lower our moustache ? Before this

> world,

> > these relatives, this body, this money, this wealth, this health,

> > this affluence, this status, this power, these rights, this

> beauty,

> > this youth, these abilities, this position, these circumstances,

> > these situations, these thoughts, etc leave us, why we should not

> > leave them? Are they not leaving us? Has not your childhood left

> you?

> > Is not your body continuously leaving you? If you have to be with

> a

> > particular relative for 30 years and you have lived with him /

her

> > already for 1 year, has not he/she gone away already by that one

> > year? Is not that relationship drifting every second away from

you?

> >

> > What are you waiting for ? Who has asked you to leave them ? But

> > can't you even accept the simple fact that they are not yours?

Are

> > they not leaving you continuously ? Any doubt on that ? What is

> wrong

> > in accepting a fact of life ? Can you deny this fact?

> >

> > So think Vijayji. Why you should lower your moustache ? She is

> going

> > to leave you most certainly. Definitely. Why don't you leave her?

> >

> > Narayana Narayana

> >

> > Rajendra J Bohra

> > --------------------------------

> >

> >

> > Hari Om

> > Re NOTHING IS MINE

> >

> > At the outset I must state that there is no need for you,

> Vijayji,

> > to worry excessively for the world. You have expressed rather too

> > much of a worry for the world. Believe me, the world is not going

> to

> > turn upside down, or come to a grinding halt, if you accept any

or

> > all of the suggestions contained in the Article referred by

> you ! ! !

> > On the contrary it shall become far far better for you ! It is

too

> > big a world to worry. An individual like you or me is too too

> small

> > to worry for it.There are systems and procedures, laws , which

> govern

> > the workings of the world and the activities of each and every

> > creature of this world. When our kindselves were not there in

> this

> > world say 100 years before, then also this world was working and

> when

> > we shall be consigned to the flames say after maximum 100 years ,

> > then also the world will remain. We therefore should worry about

> our

> > salvation, our interests, our goal rather than taking the onerous

> > responsibility of wondering as to how the world will work if we

> > follow " Nothing is Mine " etc. or what shall be the fate if

> everybody

> > starts doing desireless actions or start saying- Nothing is Mine.

> > Your job is to find out first whether the statement is correct or

> > not ! Let the world go how it is going so far. Reasonable ?.

> >

> > Saints have said:-

> >

> > Tere Baave Jo kare Bhalo Buro Sansaar, Narain tu Baith ke Apna

> Bhuvan

> > Buhaar

> > (You damn care what the world is doing – Good or Bad. You should

> > concentrate on cleaning your own house)

> >

> > Hence you should concentrate on what is your responsibility, your

> > duty, your role, your liability, your goal, your betterment, your

> > improvement, your interest, your benefit, your development ! I

let

> > you think that way. You may ask me why I have stated so, when

> nothing

> > is " yours " . I know you will not ask it. You have understood.

> >

> > Anything illogical so far? Any thing which is confusing ?

Anything

> > which is unclear?

> >

> > Feel free to first deliberate upon the aforesaid. Then we shall

> move

> > to the first acceptance – NOTHING IS MINE . Kindly be free,

open,

> > and active in deliberations. Be assured that in such

deliberations

> in

> > the end only the TRUTH PREVAILS ! Have that belief in you !

> >

> > Jai Shree Krishna

> >

> > Vyas N B

> >

> > --------------------------------

--

> -

> >

> > , " sadhak_insight "

> > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > >

> > >

> > > It is so confusing.

> > > If everybody follows " Nothing Is Mine " and " I Do not need

> anything "

> > > and specially " I do not have any relationship with anybody "

then

> > how

> > > will the world work?

> > > The saints are able to do sainthood because there are people

who

> > pay

> > > for them.

> > > Do you have a blog or area where people can discuss these

> thoughts?

> > >

> > > Thanks

> > > Vijay Aggraval

> > > -------------------

> > >

> > > On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 10:39 AM, sadhak_insight

> > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > >

> > > 2nd July, 2008, Wednesday

> > > Aashaad Krishna Chaturdashi, Vikram Samvat 2065, Budhvar

> > >

> > > Every human being is completely independent, powerful, capable

> and

> > > eligible in his salvation (kalyaan). The reason is that when

God

> > > gives human body to jeeva (embodied soul), he also gives to him

> the

> > > independence, power, capability and eligibility for his

> salvation

> > > (kalyaan).

> > >

> > > Now the question arises, what one should do for the same? The

> > answer

> > > is that if a person firmly accepts the following four things

> then

> > > his kalyaan is certain :-

> > >

> > > 1. Nothing is Mine.

> > > 2. I do not need anything.

> > > 3. I do not have any relationship with anybody.

> > > 4. Only God is my own.

> > >

> > > The fundamental fault is to assume " mineness " with the

temporary

> > > worldly things. From this fault alone all other faults arise.

In

> > > fact in this entire universe not even a thing like hair is

ours.

> > > Thereforth as soon as we accept " nothing is mine " - there comes

> > > faultlessness in us and we instantly become " dharmatma " (a pure

> > holy

> > > soul).

> > >

> > > When nothing is ours, then what is there to desire? Hence as

> soon

> > we

> > > accept- " I do not need anything " , we become " nishkaam "

> (desireless)

> > > and henceforth a " Yogi " as you acquire Equanimity. - " samatvam

> yog

> > > uchyate " (Gita 2: 48)

> > >

> > > The essential self (svaroop) of every human being is " asang "

> > > (naturally detached). Therefore as soon as we decline to accept

> any

> > > relationship with any body or any thing that comes together and

> > > later departs, we realise our self proven, obvious

> disassociation

> > or

> > > detachment. And as soon as we realise our obvious detachment,

we

> > > become " jnani " (knowledgeable).

> > >

> > > We are essentially a part of God - Gita 15:7. Hence only God is

> > > ours. Nobody else is ours. As soon as we accept our mine-ness

> with

> > > God, we become " Bhakta " (devotee of God).

> > >

> > > A human being's kalyaan (salvation) is only vested in his being

> > > Dharmatma Yogi (pure holy soul, with equanimity and free of all

> > > desires), in being Detached and in being a Devotee of God.

> > > Therefore it is a spiritual aspirant's duty that he accept

these

> > > four worthy facts with a firm conviction. Then his salvation is

> > > definite.

> > >

> > > From " Maanav Matra ke kalyaan ke liye " in Hindi pg 69/70, by

> Swami

> > > Ramsukhdasji

> > >

> > > Ram Ram

> > > ------------------------------

--

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> > >

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> > > responses which further clarify the understanding of Gitaji,

> will

> > be

> > > posted.

> > >

> > > 2. Making reference of Gitaji shloka is highly encouraged - at

> > least

> > > once in the response. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji

or

> > > other scriptures to substantiate your response.

> > >

> > > 3. Please be as concise and to the point as possible,

respecting

> > > sadhaka's time. Under no circustance the answer should exceed

> say

> > > one (book) page at the most (500 words or so) 3-4 paragraphs.

> > >

> > > 4. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to

the

> > > extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas

> > >

> > > 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only.

> > >

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> > >

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> > >

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> > posted

> > > which are in line with the general philosophy of taking Shrimad

> > > Bhagavad Gita as the reference.

> > >

> > > 11. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if

> content

> > > is unclear for distribution or not directly related to the

> question

> > > being asked.

> > >

> > > 12. Please respond taking into consideration the novices,

youth,

> > > westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use of

only

> > > Sanskrit words, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit

> > > bracketed wherever possible.

> > >

> > > 13. Any personal remarks over the knowledge of any sadhak or

> about

> > > the

> > > stage at which any sadhak is standing in his quest / sadhna /

> > > spiritual journey - must not be included in your posting.''

> > >

> > > 14. There should not be any sarcasm towards fellow sadhaks in

> this

> > > spiritual learning and sharing.

> > >

> > >

> > > MODERATOR

> > > Ram Ram

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Question: If everybody follows " Nothing Is Mine " and " I Do not need

anything " and specially " I do not have any relationship with anybody "

then how will the world work? The saints are able to do sainthood

because there are people who pay for them. Do you have a blog or

area where people can discuss these thoughts? Vijay Aggraval

--

 

Hari Om

 

Once we firmly accept anything at the " Swayam " (Self, I) level, it

becomes part of our being and thereafter all karmas flow from the

body automatically - without any effort by Self. In fact " self " can

only accept / reject / associate / disassociate- these are not

actions. " Self " cannot " act " . Therefore Swamiji insisted on " firm

acceptance " from the core being " swayam " of the facts.

 

Spiritual journey in fact is not at all " a long journey " . In fact

the moment we " accept/resolve " - we become Dharmatma (holy person)

as per Gita (9:30/31)- upon that moment of acceptance itself ! !.

 

Therefore let us not consider the journey to be long. This world is

like Kalpa Vriksha (proverbial wish yielding tree)- here as you

think, so it manifests. If you think, it is a long journey - then it

becomes long, indeed !

 

All depends upon your " acceptance/resolve " . No change is necessary

in outer conduct. As Mike said - " chop wood, carry water " . Before

and after enlightenment - no change in actions/karmas. Keep doing

same duties, same work , only the " self " inside has changed -

forever! With change in " Karta " by way of acceptance - same actions

become totally different in giving results and in effect.

 

Be solid inside and you cross the ocean. If in a cave , there is

darkness existing say for 1000 years and in another for say half an

hour. In both the cases when enlightenment takes place , darkness

instantly goes. It is in not that in the former cave, it takes more

time for darkness to disappear. Hence we should always be optimistic

in spiritual journey.

 

Pranaam to all fellow sadhaks and specially to Vijayji for

inquirying and givine us an opportunity for sharing this

understanding (Jnana Yagya) Site - Gita Talk Group.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

-------------------------------

 

Vijay

 

Just reflect what our mother gave us and what she received. Did she

ever think what it will give her when she turned her blood into milk

and gave us ?

 

The world goes on because of the sacrificing attitude of a few. The

india we have today stopped and is in chaos because everyone in

every walk of life including the selfless swamis are thinking

of " what i will get "

 

Reflect how we got freedom. it is the work of a bunch of ordinary

folks or rather below average ordinary folks who rose above their

selfishness bringing freedom to a billion others. What more do we

require as an example that selfless service will do good to all ?

 

Siva Raman

-

It is all a matter of understanding.

Understanding leads to transformation.

Awareness on " nothing is mine " , " I do not need anything " and so

on......is for the mind so that it could get some relief initially

and later totally.

 

Unless the clutter ends, there is no going forward. Mind will keep

on generating thousands of such questions.....

 

These questions start dissolving as you do " manan " on the above..and

experience the meaning.

 

Wish you good Mauning....

 

Sushil Jain

-

 

 

> -

-

>

> First of all, thanks to everyone who took time to respond to my

> question and try to help. I'm really overwhelmed by the desire of

all

> the people in this group to help a fellow person.

>

> I agree and understand the points made by all, in this post.

> Spiritual journey is a long process. I think it so happens that

sometimes the mind wanders and feelings change and one vents out.

That is the time when one should show Restrain and Believe.

>

> My humble thanks again to all of you for your responses.

>

> Vijay Aggraval

> -

-

> Hari Om

>

> In the previous discussion we arrived at the conclusion that

> (i) Worldly things/ people are not ours

> (ii) They are not for us also

> (iii) They have been given to us and

> (iv) They will leave us.

>

> Question is now what we should do? Shall we throw father /

mother/money etc out of house saying - you are not ours/nor for us?

How to live practically in life keeping in mind the above

fundamentals ?

>

> Here is a very practical, simple, logical, scientific, right and

Scriptures / Gita approved solution :-

>

> Imagine you are living in Rishikesh. Some close friend visits you

there on the way to Badrinath. He has excess cash with him, which he

doesn't want to carry to Badrinath. He requests you to keep excess

cash with you. He would come tomorrow and take back his money. You

keep the money and let him go.

>

> Now consider your status vis a vis that money lying in your

cupboard !

>

> Is it yours? No !

>

> Is it for you? No!

>

> Has it not been given to you for the time being ? Yes !

>

> Will it not be taken away from you tomorrow when your friend

returns from Badrinath? Yes !

>

> Now what can you do? You can merely " serve " the money - By keeping

it safe! You may even cancel your late night programme of going out/

next day programme so that if your friend comes earlier you can

return the money. You can only become extra vigilant for safety of

that money. What else can you do, except providing service ?

>

> That is all we have to do with the worldly things we have got !

Can we consider that money to be ours? No. If we do that or utilise

that for self or think that now it is permanently ours because it is

lying in our cupboard, become proud of it, start thinking that the

friend may not come back - then what shall be our fate ? What will

you get if you think/do so ? Sorrows, struggle, lack of peace ...

What else? That is exactly what we get when we become dishonest with

the ownership of these worldly things.

>

> What an easy and practical solution! What is difficulty in not

considering that money that belongs to the friend as not yours / not

for you / received temporarily / to be returned?

>

> Vijayji, now share your thoughts on this! Can the world turn

upside down if you return the money back to your friend when he

comes back from Badrinath ?

>

> Serve the world with the things you have got without forming any

sense of " mine-ness " with those things. In the end these things will

depart - either these things will not be there or you will not be

there or both will not be there ! Guaranteed !

>

> Sadhaks now can list out practical difficulties in implementing

the above in practical life.

>

> Jai Shree Krishna

>

> Vyas N B

> -

-

> Nothing Is Mine

>

> Doubt over this statement is arising because the reader is

contemplating on it by considering the notion that 'I am this body'.

To understand this statement one has to differentiate himself from

the body. The word 'Nothing' here implies body, mind and intellect.

By assuming this false relationship with body we get bonded to the

entire world because body is just a small sample of this world. So

those who don't want this bondage anymore the above statement is for

them.

>

> To differentiate oneself from body the most important thing is to

give importance to the fact that we (Self) never changes and the

body never ceases to change. You say that I was kid. Then I was a

young guy. Now I am an old man. The body has always changed. But has

it changed suddenly after a gap of every 25 years? No. So has it

changed after every 1 year? No. So has it changed after every 1

month? No. So has it changed after every week? (i.e. every week it

will remain as it is and then it will change after the given period)

No. So has it changed after every 1 day? No. So has it changed after

1 hour? No. So has it changed after every 1 minute? No. The truth is

that it is changing every second. It takes time to read and think

over it but it does not take any time for changing.

>

> Now a big question arises. Who knows this change? It certainly

cannot be body because it is the subject itself. So does mind and

intellect know that change? No. Because like body they are also a

subject which can be perceived, which can be known. We all know that

the thoughts which used to occupy our mind in adolescent stage no

longer come to our mind today. Similarly our decisions have also

changed. Ignorant, intelligent, remembering, forgetting etc. are

different stages of intellect. But one who can perceive these

different stages of intellect is beyond it.

> Similarly we can also differentiate our Self from ego i.e. I.

> Try to observe these 4 things. When you say 'I am, You are, This

is and That is' so all these 4 things can be seen under some light

(knowledge). That light is our Swaroop(Self). In that there is no

difference of I, you etc. So The Self is Gyan Swaroop.

>

> The Self is Immortal.

> As stated above, our existence is not because of this body. Even

when the body was not present we were there and even if the body

will not be alive we will exist (Gita 2:11). We see the body first

and then we look at our Self. This is the biggest mistake. Because

the Self comes first and body comes later. Till now we have taken

millions of births and all the bodies have left us. So what's going

to be so new about this body? Will it stay with you? Or will you

stay with it? Saints have said 'Sapana ho javasi Sut Kutumb Dhan

Dhaam' - Family, Money and House will merely be a dream. In fact you

even remember a dream but will you remember all those things which

you are now claiming as I and mine? If there is some custom for

remembering it then do you remember that in last life to which body

you referred to as I, to which person, house etc. you addressed

him/her as mine? If not then are you going to remember those

things/persons that you are now claiming to be as I/mine? Then why

get attached to them and claim them as mine?

>

> Swamiji has explained all the above topics beautifully in Sadhak-

Sanjivani in Hindi. Please refer to pages -

> 57-59, 65 - (Gita 2:13) - Our existence is not because of this body

> 850 - (Gita 13:8) - Stages of ego getting destroyed in spiritual

practice

> 851 - (Gita 13:8) 'I, you, this, that'

> 865, 866 - (Gita 13:8) The example of 'students sitting one behind

each other in an exam' is just amazing

>

> I have given page numbers as per Hindi version.

>

> Hare Krishna,

> Varun

> (Varun Paprunia)

>

> Shree Hari

> Ram Ram

> From Moderator : For those with English version, you make look up

the specific Shloka. For those who understand Hindi the entire

Sadhak Sanjivani is online at:

>

>

http://www.swamiramsukhdasji.org/swamijibooks/pustak/pustak1/html/Sad

hakSanjeevni/main.html

>

> Ram Ram

> -

--

> Vijayji,

> Here is something to ponder:

>

> Among the worlds mystical tradition it is known that to become one

> with The Divine, one has to:

> Die to ones (lower)self,(ego mind); Death of ego; Annihilation

> (Fana), different ways of expressing the same concept. One famous

lady was taught by by her Guru, an Indian Sufi Saint, " there is

nothing but nothingness " , when she found THAT nothingness, she was

at one with her then dead Guru and her GOD.

>

> B.G. 15.11. The yogis striving (for perfection) behold him dwelling

> in the Self; but, the unrefined and unintelligent, even Though

striving, see him not.

>

> Sacred books and wise council at this site, can point one in the

> right direction. I am not sure where flashy cars, a fine physique,

and worldly status can point you.

>

> To the question, '..then how will the world work?'.

> There is a Zen saying " Before enlightenment, chop wood, carry

water.

> After enlightenment, chop wood, carry water " .

>

> And surely the people who offer sustenance to holy people, do it

> because they have reverence for them! An act of Divine Love.

>

> With Respect and Divine Love,

>

> Mike

> (Mike Keenor)

> -

>

>

> >

> > Narayan Narayan,

> >

> > May you attain salvation

> > You have not created this world, it's functioning is not your

> responsibility. This world is perishing every moment, in that you

> have no control. Why are you unnecessarily and uselessly troubled

> by these things? You have not understood the inner sentiments of

> Swamiji's points. He who does not understand properly, he becomes

a

> master of half and incomplete knowledge. He who, in spite of

> knowing, if he does not give up (sacrifice) the unreal (perishing,

> temporary), that is one of the greatest losses.

> >

> > R. C Vyas

> > --------------------------------

-

> >

> > Hari Om

> >

> > Re Nothing is Mine

> >

> > I fully agree with Pratapji Bhatt. Swamiji never asked anyone to

> leave the house or relationships etc. Change is needed inside by

way

> of acceptance of truth ! Change is needed at " assumption level " -

> not in outer conduct/behaviour. We are sufferring because of wrong

> assumptions. We are confused because we have not accepted the truth

> inside our heart.

> >

> > What is the truth? Truth is that- NOTHING IS MINE !

> >

> > What is " mine " ? A thing/body can be stated to be " mine " if we

have

> independent control over it; if it is born with us only and remains

> always with us, and when we are not there it departs with us only.

(

> If a thing is " mine " then what is it doing here in this world after

> I am dead? It is " mine " - how then it can be of others?) Then only

> it can be ours - or there is any other way of something being ours?

> ( Vijayji please deliberate here- Come On! ) A thing which meets

us

> and later departs - how can that thing be ours? How can any sane

> mind call that thing to be ours, which from the very moment of

> connection with you is disconnecting from you? (Vijayji- can you

> give any examples of any thing which has different characteristics?

> Please enlighten!)

> >

> > If body is " yours " , then don't allow it to fall sick. Let it

> never grow old! At least don't allow it to die ! ! Can you ensure

> that ? ( Vijayji -can you ensure that ?) If you cannot, then how

> can you assume it is yours ? Is body coming nearer to you every

> passing second or going away from you every moment ? How it is

yours

> if it is going away from you every second ?

> >

> > What is dishonesty? You are called " dishonest " , if you claim

> something to be yours while in fact it is not yours. Is there any

> other way in which dishonesty can be defined? If we call this body,

> these worldly things, etc to be ours then - are we honest or

> dishonest ? ? Deliberate Vijayji here on these points! Come on ! !

> Consider these written words as blog only !

> >

> > What is reality? The fact is that this body, mind, intellect,

ego,

> these worldly things, situations, status, wealth, health,

affluence,

> relatives - all - everything which changes- everything except

> Paramatma / Self/ Conscience :-

> >

> > 1 They are not yours !

> >

> > 2 They are not for you also!

> >

> > 3 They have been given to you for a predetermined time !

> >

> > 4.They shall be taken back from you !

> >

> > Now ponder upon the above discussion. Ask as many questions as

you

> can. Argue till you don't get convinced or till you don't convince

> me - on the aforesaid facts. Then we shall resume tomorrow, further

> in the matter.

> >

> > Jai Shree Krishna

> >

> > Vyas N B

> > --------------------------------

--

> > There is need to understand that there are two identities in the

> question below. Unfortunately, we refuse to distinguish between

> these two identities. These are the 'mind' and the 'body'. Having

> understood this basic issue, it is easy to find an answer.

> >

> > " Nothing is mine, I need nothing, I have no relationship " are all

> a function of the mind. When Gitaji says these words, it is to

> highlight that there should be no attachment with the world.

> >

> > Doing things in the world are a function of body. When Gitaji

says

> these words, it is to highlight that 'Kartavya Karma' should

> continue to be performed.

> >

> > I hope this will help Vijayji find an answer.

> >

> > A.H.Dalmia

> >

> >

> > --------------------------------

--

> >

> > Ram Ram,

> > Vijayji has asked good question. However, one thing needs to be

> > understood that this world is created by Krishna and is run by

> divine

> > mother with the wishes of the supreme God (Shri Krishna) as it is

> his

> > leela. Therefore, Shri Krishna very well knows that if all

people

> > follow his principles, there would not be any universe. As long

as

> > the world exists there will be beings which would not follow

these

> > principles. But what we need to focus upon is to follow his

> > principles in the Gita instead of worrying about what happens if

> all

> > follows. That is Shri Krishna's problem not our problem.

> >

> > Ram Ram

> > Sudhir Kalra

> >

> > --------------------------------

--

> > I agree with the question, understand it too but the problem lies

> in

> > implementing it fully. Yes fully, at times I do so and when I do

> so,

> > I feel happy, away from the tensions and sorrows of the world.

But

> > don't know how I miss the track and again I fall in the well of

> > ignorance. This cycle goes on and on. I have used the

> > word 'implement', actually it's wrong, every thing happens on

> > itself. But since the situation is not permanent though I don't

> have

> > any doubts, I have used this word.

> >

> > Goenka

> > --------------------------------

--

> > On a personal note, when I started to read Bhagwat Gita, the

> > question in mind was whether I become Sanyasi and abondon many of

> > actvities but it was in fact an explanation of WORK and

worshipping

> > Sri Krishna only by WORK. By not possessiveness, WORK becomes

more

> > objective and transparent and income level rises. The money or

> > increased ability is not interference but a resource like water

or

> > earth which is in hand of NISHKAAM KARMI.

> >

> > In the Bhagwat Gita, I learnt 'updrishta anumanta ch... ' and

this

> > is enough of my conviction and most practical. Slowly, I got

> > understanding of more words and ideas. So, the question of

> > livelihood, and success and excellence are not opposed to

> > renunciation or Sannyaas.

> > Regards

> > K G

> > (Krishna Gopal)

> > -------------------------------

> >

> > In response to Vijayi's question, my humble attempts to offer a

few

> > thoughts,

> >

> > So often in life, we are not able to hold onto various

> > assets. Money isn't there for a car payment, the car is

> repossessed. No moeny for apartment rent, one has to go and stay

> with a

> > relative, something is stolen, as a wallet etc. One who truly

> knows, is not disturbed. He is equipoised, as the understanding

> that " these things are not mine " has become realized knowledge.

The

> awareness that, try as we may, we are not the ultimate controller

of

> all that happens, is a very high level of understanding. We should

> also know, that if in our heart the desire has awakened to be

> detached from worldly things, and develop that intimate, loving

> relationship with God, then the Lord in the heart will hear that

> desire.

> >

> > Being a renunciate doesn't necessarily entail living the

> > life of a wandering mendicant with no possessions....it means to

> understand that nothing is this world is truly ours. " Ours " is only

> the desire to serve the Lord, or serve our own whims. Whatever has

> been put into our care, use it as much as possible to glorify and

> serve the Lord, whether it is our children, wealth, our home, our

> intelligence....whatever we have should be used to serve

> > Sri Krsna (or however we call the Lord)

> >

> > The sadhak lives on two levels, one is the internal

understanding,

> that nothing is mine, save and except the desire to serve the

> > Lord, and then the external awareness, according to one's place

> and status in life. The internal awareness, if truly on the

> > level of realization (jnana) will constantly manifest in external

> > dealings, for instance, if one is externally somewhat well-off,

> with a little money in the pocket, and a beggar comes, needing some

> food, one who is fully aware of his own " non-ownership " will be

> quite willing to give in charity, if able, whereas one who

> thinks, " this is mine, I worked hard for it " will not so willingly

> give.

> >

> > my dear Vijayji, truly, without putting our relationship

> > with the Lord first, our lives are wasted. Those who have

> dedicated their lives to helping give this knowledge, of simple

> living, high thinking, of making the Lord the center of our worship

> rather than our own bodies and minds, they are providing the

> greatest service to humanity. Can we have even the basic needs of

> a human being, such as food grains and water, without the mercy of

> the Lord? No.

> > Whatever we have is His mercy and kindness, and we should

> constantly

> > be striving to re-awaken our relationship with Him. That is

> gratitude, not that we take food, clothing, sunlight, etc....and

> ignore that Person who is giving us these things.

> >

> > Hoping my words have not offended anyone,

> > Mahalaksmi Dasi

> >

> > --------------------------------

--

> -

> > , " sadhak_insight "

> > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Shree Hari

> > > Ram Ram

> > >

> > > FROM MODERATOR:

> > >

> > > Dear Divine Sadhaks,

> > >

> > > Vijayji has posed a wonderful question that will benefit many

of

> > us !

> > >

> > > Question: If everybody follows " Nothing Is Mine " and " I Do not

> > need

> > > anything " and specially " I do not have any relationship with

> > anybody "

> > > then how will the world work? The saints are able to do

sainthood

> > > because there are people who pay for them. Do you have a blog

or

> > > area where people can discuss these thoughts? Vijay Aggraval

> > >

> > > I appeal / encourage you all to not be passive by-standers, but

> to

> > > step up to the challenge of the question being asked. Let us

all

> > > take this divine opportunity, to carefully and attentively

review

> > the

> > > message from Swamiji, the question and the responses so far. If

> > there

> > > is any doubts, to bring it forward to the group.

> > >

> > > I encourage Vijayji, Simiji and all others that have expressed

> > > concern on similar or related topics in the past; to name a

> few -

> > > Madan Gupta, Anilji Bhanot, Vavamenonji, and any others to

> > > deliberate / respond with your very brief answers. Vijayji,

since

> > we

> > > do not have a blog at this time, you may react from time to

time

> > more

> > > actively, by asking counter questions, feeling free to

> participate

> > in

> > > full, to gain clarification of any doubts that you may have

> > related

> > > to the topic being discussed.

> > >

> > > We shall allow maximum time span for this question until doubts

> of

> > > sadhaks are clarified. In fact, there will be no new questions

> > > posted till this question has reached to a logical

conclusion. I

> > > therefore expect that all sadhaks will be fully engaged in this

> > > discussion. Such questions / answers can be transforming.

> > >

> > > Thank you all for this Jnana ganga !

> > >

> > > From Gita Talk Moderator

> > > Ram Ram

> > >

> > > ------------------------------

--

> --

> > -

> > >

> > > Hari Om

> > >

> > > The apprehension as to whether the world will work or not

denotes

> > a

> > > presumption that the entire world is " driven by desires " only.

> > There

> > > can not be any desireless actions at all and if the desireless

> > > actions are resorted to by anybody, the world comes to a

> grinding

> > > halt - at least for that body ! Too over confident an

> observation

> > > indeed !

> > >

> > > The observation reg the Saints is too bad - unbelievably bad.

Who

> > can

> > > pay for Saints? No body can ever pay for them or repay them for

> > what

> > > they give to humanity at large. Judgement cannot be passed if

> > there

> > > is a question/doubt.

> > >

> > > Even without face to face interaction, the subject can be

> > discussed

> > > and grasped - if we utilise our power " to accept/believe "

and " to

> > > know " correctly. You know that you have these powers. Hence

> kindly

> > > now position yourself with an open, receptive, comprehending,

> > > willing, ready to understand, logical, rationale, scientific,

> > > patient, serious and impartial (equanimous) mind set and follow

> > what

> > > all sadhaks respond pursuant to your question. I will too

> > contribute

> > > from time to time.

> > >

> > > You of course will have ample opportunities of expressing your

> > views,

> > > of counter arguing , etc. You may even respond against each and

> > every

> > > observation given by various Sadhaks of this Gita Talk Group.

We

> > > shall definitely make an effort to convince you - by sheer

power

> > of

> > > the truth !

> > >

> > > If you are ready and have power of belief in you, then first

> > believe

> > > that in such deliberations ultimately the truth prevails. You

> will

> > > have to be patient, though. Believe me, your question otherwise

> is

> > > excellent and will help many. The answers will be eye openers.

> > >

> > > Jai Shree Krishna

> > >

> > > Vyas N B

> > >

> > > ------------------------------

--

> -

> > > Dear Sadhus, Master!

> > >

> > > If one takes the literal meaning of " nothing is mine " or " I

> don't

> > > have any relationship with anybody " , it will sound confusing.

> > > However, these statements asks us to develop and live with

such

> > > inner attitude when dealing with world. Obviously we all are

> > > interdependent on one another, rather, this entire universe

works

> > as

> > > though it is one system. We all need the basic minimum, like

> food,

> > > shelter, clothing, and may be few others for survival. As can

be

> > > seen, these require us to function harmoniously in society.

> > >

> > > What happens is that we get attached to " me " and mineness

becomes

> > so

> > > real, so important to us that we forget our interdependencies,

> > > duties, righteousness etc and end up developing greed, envy,

> > jealousy

> > > and other negative emotions. This leads us to suffering.

> > > Swamiji's message below is very clear: In order to free

ourselves

> > > from suffering, we need to be detached from the things of the

> > world.

> > > As made by God, we are complete in ourselves inwardly, we just

> > need

> > > to realize it by our inner attitude suggested here.

> > >

> > > To do so would require me to live and deal with world with an

> > inner

> > > attitude as if nothing is mine. When established firmly in this

> > > attitude, I will realize the truth of other statements of

> > Swamiji: " I

> > > have no relationship with anyone " , " I don't need

anything " , " Only

> > God

> > > is mine "

> > >

> > > One doesn't need to avoid or escape from the world or things of

> > the

> > > world which will clearly indicate aversions same as attachments

> > and

> > > continuation of suffering. However, one sees God in all(God is

> > mine

> > > in this sense), is filled with only love, compassion and serves

> > all.

> > > After all when God takes care of such a one as promised in Gita

> > 9:22,

> > > (.....Yoga kshemam vahamyaham), He does it through people and

> > nature.

> > > Such a one, while not selfishly related to anyone, is truly

> > related

> > > to all as if they are one.

> > >

> > > In summary, Swamiji asks us that while outwardly being

> > > interdependent, be unattached and not depend on anyone or

> anything

> > > inwardly for our own comforts, and happiness. This is because

in

> > > doing so, we will be inevitably unhappy due to changing nature

of

> > > world. In this way when we are detached, we will be objective

and

> > > have a right perspective for things of the world.

> > > Namaskar....

> > >

> > > Pratap

> > > (Pratap Bhatt)

> > > ------------------------------

--

> -

> > >

> > > Dear Vijayji

> > >

> > > Bhagwat Gita in chapter 16 says that people have either a

> tendency

> > of

> > > liberation or bondage. These natural defense traits are called

> > DAIVY

> > > and AASURI sampada. DAIVY sampada is about PARITTYAG. This

means,

> > not

> > > leaving or abondoning anything but retaining the freewill so

that

> > > things do not become addiction and one is aware of self nature

of

> > > free-will. This retaining of free will is called PARITTAAG. For

> > > example, a man becomes vegeterian or non-smoker or sugar free

or

> > non-

> > > competitive not because non-vegeterian food, smoking or sugar

or

> > > competitive mentality are bad or good; but the particular man

has

> > now

> > > discovered his own nature and these consumptions are slowly

> > becoming

> > > irrelevant.

> > >

> > > Consumption is two types. One, personal and two, impersonal.

When

> > one

> > > is hungry and eats something alone, this is personal. But if

one

> > does

> > > not eat and offers food to his hungry wife or hungry children

or

> > > employees to save their lives first, this consumption is

indirect

> > or

> > > impersonal. Sri Krishna says that He at one stage is BHOKTA

> > > (consumer) but not directly. And when people eat food, or have

> > peace

> > > and love, this consumption is like happiness of great grand

> father

> > in

> > > joint family who consumes all happiness by watching a large

happy

> > > family, united. This state of mind of impersonal consumer is

Sri

> > > Krishna. So Sri Krishna is a consumer (BHOKTA) but not

directly.

> > In

> > > another sloka in Bhagwat Gita, Sri Krishna says His devout to

> > serve

> > > all living being (SARVA BHOOT RATE HITAH) because it tastes

much

> > > better if consumption is indirect.

> > >

> > > Sri Krishna is called GOVIND and GOPTA just for same reasoning.

> He

> > is

> > > secret commission agent for whatever exchanges takes place in

> > living

> > > being. By consuming a sample of exchanges, He gets to know

> level

> > of

> > > impersonal consumption. Therefore, Krishna bhakt have no ill

> > feeling

> > > towards one another because a part of this feeling like poison

> > goes

> > > to Sri Krishna who is a GOPTA or GOVIND or commission agent or

> > > intermediary of exchanges.

> > >

> > > Regards

> > > Krishna Gopal

> > >

> > > ------------------------------

--

> -

> > > Somehow I agree with you Mr Vijay!

> > >

> > > Simi S.

> > > ------------------------------

--

> -

> > >

> > > Jai Shri Krishna,

> > >

> > > Sadhak Vijayji appears to be confused and somewhat scared of

> > > accepting simple and logical steps suggested by Swamiji for

> > > fulfillment of the very objective for which the human life has

> > been

> > > given. I will surely contribute in the deliberations but before

> > that

> > > I am reminded of a short story which I want to share with

> Sadhaks.

> > >

> > > There was a married couple residing together for 6-7 years.

> > >

> > > One evening wife said to the husband - Look I am fed up now

> with

> > > you. I am not happy with the care which you are taking of me.

> Last

> > > month you promised a Jhumka (jewellery) for me, but you never

> > bought

> > > it for me. I am not enjoying your company anymore. I have

> selected

> > a

> > > new companion for me who will take me away with him tomorrow

> > morning

> > > at 8 AM. Till tomorrow morning I am yours and thereafter, Good

> > Bye!

> > > We have met in this life, please do not meet me again here or

in

> > the

> > > heavens.

> > >

> > > Husband was stunned. He pleaded, said he would get two Jhumkas

> > > instead of one and a good dress as well. He said - Please don't

> > leave

> > > me. How the neighbors, the society will look toward me and see

> me?

> > > Please! I am sorry.

> > >

> > > But wife was adamant. He tried his level best to convince her

but

> > > could not succeed. It was 11 pm in the winter night. They were

> > living

> > > in a small village with 100/150 houses. Suddenly husband went

on

> > the

> > > roof top of the house and started calling - Villagers...

> Villagers

> > > Pls come and gather around now. 15/20 people came and asked him

> as

> > to

> > > the matter.

> > >

> > > Husband said- I have decided to divorce my wife. Villagers pls

> > note.

> > >

> > > Now wife kept on uttering - I left, I left I left him first -

but

> > no

> > > one heard her.

> > >

> > > The villagers asked- any other thing. Husband said - No Thank

> > you, I

> > > just wanted to keep you all posted. You may go now.

> > >

> > > When he returned to the bed room from the roof top, wife told -

> > you

> > > are a very bad person, a liar - I left you and you told

villagers

> > > that you left me ! Explain !

> > >

> > > Husband said - Look I tried to convince you a lot, but you did

> not

> > > agree. Then why I should lower my moustache ! ! ! Before you

> leave

> > > me, I have left you !

> > >

> > > So Vijayji - why we should lower our moustache ? Before this

> > world,

> > > these relatives, this body, this money, this wealth, this

health,

> > > this affluence, this status, this power, these rights, this

> > beauty,

> > > this youth, these abilities, this position, these

circumstances,

> > > these situations, these thoughts, etc leave us, why we should

not

> > > leave them? Are they not leaving us? Has not your childhood

left

> > you?

> > > Is not your body continuously leaving you? If you have to be

with

> > a

> > > particular relative for 30 years and you have lived with him /

> her

> > > already for 1 year, has not he/she gone away already by that

one

> > > year? Is not that relationship drifting every second away from

> you?

> > >

> > > What are you waiting for ? Who has asked you to leave them ?

But

> > > can't you even accept the simple fact that they are not yours?

> Are

> > > they not leaving you continuously ? Any doubt on that ? What is

> > wrong

> > > in accepting a fact of life ? Can you deny this fact?

> > >

> > > So think Vijayji. Why you should lower your moustache ? She is

> > going

> > > to leave you most certainly. Definitely. Why don't you leave

her?

> > >

> > > Narayana Narayana

> > >

> > > Rajendra J Bohra

> > > ------------------------------

--

> > >

> > >

> > > Hari Om

> > > Re NOTHING IS MINE

> > >

> > > At the outset I must state that there is no need for you,

> > Vijayji,

> > > to worry excessively for the world. You have expressed rather

too

> > > much of a worry for the world. Believe me, the world is not

going

> > to

> > > turn upside down, or come to a grinding halt, if you accept any

> or

> > > all of the suggestions contained in the Article referred by

> > you ! ! !

> > > On the contrary it shall become far far better for you ! It is

> too

> > > big a world to worry. An individual like you or me is too too

> > small

> > > to worry for it.There are systems and procedures, laws , which

> > govern

> > > the workings of the world and the activities of each and every

> > > creature of this world. When our kindselves were not there in

> > this

> > > world say 100 years before, then also this world was working

and

> > when

> > > we shall be consigned to the flames say after maximum 100

years ,

> > > then also the world will remain. We therefore should worry

about

> > our

> > > salvation, our interests, our goal rather than taking the

onerous

> > > responsibility of wondering as to how the world will work if we

> > > follow " Nothing is Mine " etc. or what shall be the fate if

> > everybody

> > > starts doing desireless actions or start saying- Nothing is

Mine.

> > > Your job is to find out first whether the statement is correct

or

> > > not ! Let the world go how it is going so far. Reasonable ?.

> > >

> > > Saints have said:-

> > >

> > > Tere Baave Jo kare Bhalo Buro Sansaar, Narain tu Baith ke Apna

> > Bhuvan

> > > Buhaar

> > > (You damn care what the world is doing – Good or Bad. You

should

> > > concentrate on cleaning your own house)

> > >

> > > Hence you should concentrate on what is your responsibility,

your

> > > duty, your role, your liability, your goal, your betterment,

your

> > > improvement, your interest, your benefit, your development ! I

> let

> > > you think that way. You may ask me why I have stated so, when

> > nothing

> > > is " yours " . I know you will not ask it. You have understood.

> > >

> > > Anything illogical so far? Any thing which is confusing ?

> Anything

> > > which is unclear?

> > >

> > > Feel free to first deliberate upon the aforesaid. Then we shall

> > move

> > > to the first acceptance – NOTHING IS MINE . Kindly be free,

> open,

> > > and active in deliberations. Be assured that in such

> deliberations

> > in

> > > the end only the TRUTH PREVAILS ! Have that belief in you !

> > >

> > > Jai Shree Krishna

> > >

> > > Vyas N B

> > >

> > > ------------------------------

--

> --

> > -

> > >

> > > , " sadhak_insight "

> > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > It is so confusing.

> > > > If everybody follows " Nothing Is Mine " and " I Do not need

> > anything "

> > > > and specially " I do not have any relationship with anybody "

> then

> > > how

> > > > will the world work?

> > > > The saints are able to do sainthood because there are people

> who

> > > pay

> > > > for them.

> > > > Do you have a blog or area where people can discuss these

> > thoughts?

> > > >

> > > > Thanks

> > > > Vijay Aggraval

> > > > -------------------

> > > >

> > > > On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 10:39 AM, sadhak_insight

> > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > 2nd July, 2008, Wednesday

> > > > Aashaad Krishna Chaturdashi, Vikram Samvat 2065, Budhvar

> > > >

> > > > Every human being is completely independent, powerful,

capable

> > and

> > > > eligible in his salvation (kalyaan). The reason is that when

> God

> > > > gives human body to jeeva (embodied soul), he also gives to

him

> > the

> > > > independence, power, capability and eligibility for his

> > salvation

> > > > (kalyaan).

> > > >

> > > > Now the question arises, what one should do for the same? The

> > > answer

> > > > is that if a person firmly accepts the following four things

> > then

> > > > his kalyaan is certain :-

> > > >

> > > > 1. Nothing is Mine.

> > > > 2. I do not need anything.

> > > > 3. I do not have any relationship with anybody.

> > > > 4. Only God is my own.

> > > >

> > > > The fundamental fault is to assume " mineness " with the

> temporary

> > > > worldly things. From this fault alone all other faults arise.

> In

> > > > fact in this entire universe not even a thing like hair is

> ours.

> > > > Thereforth as soon as we accept " nothing is mine " - there

comes

> > > > faultlessness in us and we instantly become " dharmatma " (a

pure

> > > holy

> > > > soul).

> > > >

> > > > When nothing is ours, then what is there to desire? Hence as

> > soon

> > > we

> > > > accept- " I do not need anything " , we become " nishkaam "

> > (desireless)

> > > > and henceforth a " Yogi " as you acquire Equanimity. -

" samatvam

> > yog

> > > > uchyate " (Gita 2: 48)

> > > >

> > > > The essential self (svaroop) of every human being is " asang "

> > > > (naturally detached). Therefore as soon as we decline to

accept

> > any

> > > > relationship with any body or any thing that comes together

and

> > > > later departs, we realise our self proven, obvious

> > disassociation

> > > or

> > > > detachment. And as soon as we realise our obvious detachment,

> we

> > > > become " jnani " (knowledgeable).

> > > >

> > > > We are essentially a part of God - Gita 15:7. Hence only God

is

> > > > ours. Nobody else is ours. As soon as we accept our mine-ness

> > with

> > > > God, we become " Bhakta " (devotee of God).

> > > >

> > > > A human being's kalyaan (salvation) is only vested in his

being

> > > > Dharmatma Yogi (pure holy soul, with equanimity and free of

all

> > > > desires), in being Detached and in being a Devotee of God.

> > > > Therefore it is a spiritual aspirant's duty that he accept

> these

> > > > four worthy facts with a firm conviction. Then his salvation

is

> > > > definite.

> > > >

> > > > From " Maanav Matra ke kalyaan ke liye " in Hindi pg 69/70, by

> > Swami

> > > > Ramsukhdasji

> > > >

> > > > Ram Ram

> > > > ----------------------------

--

> --

> > > > GUIDELINES FOR POSTING A RESPONSE:

> > > >

> > > > 1. The group is focused on the Holy Gitaji, therefore, only

> > > > responses which further clarify the understanding of Gitaji,

> > will

> > > be

> > > > posted.

> > > >

> > > > 2. Making reference of Gitaji shloka is highly encouraged -

at

> > > least

> > > > once in the response. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji

> or

> > > > other scriptures to substantiate your response.

> > > >

> > > > 3. Please be as concise and to the point as possible,

> respecting

> > > > sadhaka's time. Under no circustance the answer should exceed

> > say

> > > > one (book) page at the most (500 words or so) 3-4 paragraphs.

> > > >

> > > > 4. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to

> the

> > > > extent that they further help in understanding the Gita

shlokas

> > > >

> > > > 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only.

> > > >

> > > > 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other

> > > > organizations.

> > > >

> > > > 7. Complete reproduction of texts from any book is strongly

> > > > discouraged, however references may be made of the book or

> > author

> > > > (but not links to other sites).

> > > >

> > > > 8. Kindly do not include your personal information such as

> phone

> > > > number, address etc.

> > > >

> > > > 9. Please do not address the response to a particular

> individual

> > > > since the message is going to the entire group.

> > > >

> > > > 10. Due to the large readership, only those responses will be

> > > posted

> > > > which are in line with the general philosophy of taking

Shrimad

> > > > Bhagavad Gita as the reference.

> > > >

> > > > 11. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if

> > content

> > > > is unclear for distribution or not directly related to the

> > question

> > > > being asked.

> > > >

> > > > 12. Please respond taking into consideration the novices,

> youth,

> > > > westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use of

> only

> > > > Sanskrit words, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit

> > > > bracketed wherever possible.

> > > >

> > > > 13. Any personal remarks over the knowledge of any sadhak or

> > about

> > > > the

> > > > stage at which any sadhak is standing in his quest / sadhna /

> > > > spiritual journey - must not be included in your posting.''

> > > >

> > > > 14. There should not be any sarcasm towards fellow sadhaks in

> > this

> > > > spiritual learning and sharing.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > MODERATOR

> > > > Ram Ram

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Question: If everybody follows " Nothing Is Mine " and " I Do not need

anything " and specially " I do not have any relationship with anybody "

then how will the world work? The saints are able to do sainthood

because there are people who pay for them. Do you have a blog or

area where people can discuss these thoughts? Vijay Aggraval

--

 

My respects to all in this forum....I have a few questions which I

am requesting Mr. Vyas to clarify.

 

I am in disagreement, perhaps due to my lack of understanding, why

it is said (below) that to rejects, associate or disassociate are

not actions;...even on a mundane level, these are considered verbs,

which are action words.....what to speak of the fact that I, the

soul, has to choose to accept a course of action before it is

undertaken...I have always held the opposite opinion, that action

begins first from the subtle level....Lord Brahma did not manifest

the universe by taking the elements in his hands and combining them

one by one, did he? Rather, it would appear that it was a subtle

process, brought on by the yogic abilities to move matter through a

thought process....which stems from desire. To desire is not an

intangible " thing " ....rather, it is an action of the soul. We must

carefully analyze what it is we desire, otherwise, we will manifest

through our actions conduct which will bring about pain and

suffering.

 

In another paragraph, it is writtten, " This world is

like Kalpa Vriksha (proverbial wish yielding tree)- here as you

think, so it manifests. If you think, it is a long journey - then it

becomes long, indeed ! " So, the idea here is in accord to what I

am thinking, I am merely not understanding your choice of wording in

the opening paragraph. Thank you for the clarification.

 

Mahalaksmi Dasi

 

> -

-

>

> Hari Om

>

> Once we firmly accept anything at the " Swayam " (Self, I) level, it

> becomes part of our being and thereafter all karmas flow from the

> body automatically - without any effort by Self. In fact " self "

can

> only accept / reject / associate / disassociate- these are not

> actions. " Self " cannot " act " . Therefore Swamiji insisted on " firm

> acceptance " from the core being " swayam " of the facts.

>

> Spiritual journey in fact is not at all " a long journey " . In fact

> the moment we " accept/resolve " - we become Dharmatma (holy person)

> as per Gita (9:30/31)- upon that moment of acceptance itself ! !.

>

> Therefore let us not consider the journey to be long. This world

is

> like Kalpa Vriksha (proverbial wish yielding tree)- here as you

> think, so it manifests. If you think, it is a long journey - then

it

> becomes long, indeed !

>

> All depends upon your " acceptance/resolve " . No change is necessary

> in outer conduct. As Mike said - " chop wood, carry water " . Before

> and after enlightenment - no change in actions/karmas. Keep doing

> same duties, same work , only the " self " inside has changed -

> forever! With change in " Karta " by way of acceptance - same

actions

> become totally different in giving results and in effect.

>

> Be solid inside and you cross the ocean. If in a cave , there is

> darkness existing say for 1000 years and in another for say half

an

> hour. In both the cases when enlightenment takes place , darkness

> instantly goes. It is in not that in the former cave, it takes

more

> time for darkness to disappear. Hence we should always be

optimistic

> in spiritual journey.

>

> Pranaam to all fellow sadhaks and specially to Vijayji for

> inquirying and givine us an opportunity for sharing this

> understanding (Jnana Yagya) Site - Gita Talk Group.

>

> Jai Shree Krishna

>

> Vyas N B

> -------------------------------

>

> Vijay

>

> Just reflect what our mother gave us and what she received. Did

she

> ever think what it will give her when she turned her blood into

milk

> and gave us ?

>

> The world goes on because of the sacrificing attitude of a few.

The

> india we have today stopped and is in chaos because everyone in

> every walk of life including the selfless swamis are thinking

> of " what i will get "

>

> Reflect how we got freedom. it is the work of a bunch of ordinary

> folks or rather below average ordinary folks who rose above their

> selfishness bringing freedom to a billion others. What more do we

> require as an example that selfless service will do good to all ?

>

> Siva Raman

> -

> It is all a matter of understanding.

> Understanding leads to transformation.

> Awareness on " nothing is mine " , " I do not need anything " and so

> on......is for the mind so that it could get some relief initially

> and later totally.

>

> Unless the clutter ends, there is no going forward. Mind will

keep

> on generating thousands of such questions.....

>

> These questions start dissolving as you do " manan " on the

above..and

> experience the meaning.

>

> Wish you good Mauning....

>

> Sushil Jain

> -

>

>

> > --------------------------------

--

> -

> >

> > First of all, thanks to everyone who took time to respond to my

> > question and try to help. I'm really overwhelmed by the desire

of

> all

> > the people in this group to help a fellow person.

> >

> > I agree and understand the points made by all, in this post.

> > Spiritual journey is a long process. I think it so happens that

> sometimes the mind wanders and feelings change and one vents out.

> That is the time when one should show Restrain and Believe.

> >

> > My humble thanks again to all of you for your responses.

> >

> > Vijay Aggraval

> > --------------------------------

--

> -

> > Hari Om

> >

> > In the previous discussion we arrived at the conclusion that

> > (i) Worldly things/ people are not ours

> > (ii) They are not for us also

> > (iii) They have been given to us and

> > (iv) They will leave us.

> >

> > Question is now what we should do? Shall we throw father /

> mother/money etc out of house saying - you are not ours/nor for

us?

> How to live practically in life keeping in mind the above

> fundamentals ?

> >

> > Here is a very practical, simple, logical, scientific, right and

> Scriptures / Gita approved solution :-

> >

> > Imagine you are living in Rishikesh. Some close friend visits

you

> there on the way to Badrinath. He has excess cash with him, which

he

> doesn't want to carry to Badrinath. He requests you to keep excess

> cash with you. He would come tomorrow and take back his money. You

> keep the money and let him go.

> >

> > Now consider your status vis a vis that money lying in your

> cupboard !

> >

> > Is it yours? No !

> >

> > Is it for you? No!

> >

> > Has it not been given to you for the time being ? Yes !

> >

> > Will it not be taken away from you tomorrow when your friend

> returns from Badrinath? Yes !

> >

> > Now what can you do? You can merely " serve " the money - By

keeping

> it safe! You may even cancel your late night programme of going

out/

> next day programme so that if your friend comes earlier you can

> return the money. You can only become extra vigilant for safety of

> that money. What else can you do, except providing service ?

> >

> > That is all we have to do with the worldly things we have got !

> Can we consider that money to be ours? No. If we do that or

utilise

> that for self or think that now it is permanently ours because it

is

> lying in our cupboard, become proud of it, start thinking that the

> friend may not come back - then what shall be our fate ? What will

> you get if you think/do so ? Sorrows, struggle, lack of peace ...

> What else? That is exactly what we get when we become dishonest

with

> the ownership of these worldly things.

> >

> > What an easy and practical solution! What is difficulty in not

> considering that money that belongs to the friend as not yours /

not

> for you / received temporarily / to be returned?

> >

> > Vijayji, now share your thoughts on this! Can the world turn

> upside down if you return the money back to your friend when he

> comes back from Badrinath ?

> >

> > Serve the world with the things you have got without forming any

> sense of " mine-ness " with those things. In the end these things

will

> depart - either these things will not be there or you will not be

> there or both will not be there ! Guaranteed !

> >

> > Sadhaks now can list out practical difficulties in implementing

> the above in practical life.

> >

> > Jai Shree Krishna

> >

> > Vyas N B

> > --------------------------------

--

> -

> > Nothing Is Mine

> >

> > Doubt over this statement is arising because the reader is

> contemplating on it by considering the notion that 'I am this

body'.

> To understand this statement one has to differentiate himself from

> the body. The word 'Nothing' here implies body, mind and

intellect.

> By assuming this false relationship with body we get bonded to the

> entire world because body is just a small sample of this world. So

> those who don't want this bondage anymore the above statement is

for

> them.

> >

> > To differentiate oneself from body the most important thing is

to

> give importance to the fact that we (Self) never changes and the

> body never ceases to change. You say that I was kid. Then I was a

> young guy. Now I am an old man. The body has always changed. But

has

> it changed suddenly after a gap of every 25 years? No. So has it

> changed after every 1 year? No. So has it changed after every 1

> month? No. So has it changed after every week? (i.e. every week it

> will remain as it is and then it will change after the given

period)

> No. So has it changed after every 1 day? No. So has it changed

after

> 1 hour? No. So has it changed after every 1 minute? No. The truth

is

> that it is changing every second. It takes time to read and think

> over it but it does not take any time for changing.

> >

> > Now a big question arises. Who knows this change? It certainly

> cannot be body because it is the subject itself. So does mind and

> intellect know that change? No. Because like body they are also a

> subject which can be perceived, which can be known. We all know

that

> the thoughts which used to occupy our mind in adolescent stage no

> longer come to our mind today. Similarly our decisions have also

> changed. Ignorant, intelligent, remembering, forgetting etc. are

> different stages of intellect. But one who can perceive these

> different stages of intellect is beyond it.

> > Similarly we can also differentiate our Self from ego i.e. I.

> > Try to observe these 4 things. When you say 'I am, You are, This

> is and That is' so all these 4 things can be seen under some light

> (knowledge). That light is our Swaroop(Self). In that there is no

> difference of I, you etc. So The Self is Gyan Swaroop.

> >

> > The Self is Immortal.

> > As stated above, our existence is not because of this body. Even

> when the body was not present we were there and even if the body

> will not be alive we will exist (Gita 2:11). We see the body first

> and then we look at our Self. This is the biggest mistake. Because

> the Self comes first and body comes later. Till now we have taken

> millions of births and all the bodies have left us. So what's

going

> to be so new about this body? Will it stay with you? Or will you

> stay with it? Saints have said 'Sapana ho javasi Sut Kutumb Dhan

> Dhaam' - Family, Money and House will merely be a dream. In fact

you

> even remember a dream but will you remember all those things which

> you are now claiming as I and mine? If there is some custom for

> remembering it then do you remember that in last life to which

body

> you referred to as I, to which person, house etc. you addressed

> him/her as mine? If not then are you going to remember those

> things/persons that you are now claiming to be as I/mine? Then why

> get attached to them and claim them as mine?

> >

> > Swamiji has explained all the above topics beautifully in Sadhak-

> Sanjivani in Hindi. Please refer to pages -

> > 57-59, 65 - (Gita 2:13) - Our existence is not because of this

body

> > 850 - (Gita 13:8) - Stages of ego getting destroyed in spiritual

> practice

> > 851 - (Gita 13:8) 'I, you, this, that'

> > 865, 866 - (Gita 13:8) The example of 'students sitting one

behind

> each other in an exam' is just amazing

> >

> > I have given page numbers as per Hindi version.

> >

> > Hare Krishna,

> > Varun

> > (Varun Paprunia)

> > --------------------------------

-

> > Shree Hari

> > Ram Ram

> > From Moderator : For those with English version, you make look

up

> the specific Shloka. For those who understand Hindi the entire

> Sadhak Sanjivani is online at:

> >

> >

>

http://www.swamiramsukhdasji.org/swamijibooks/pustak/pustak1/html/Sad

> hakSanjeevni/main.html

> >

> > Ram Ram

> > --------------------------------

--

> --

> > Vijayji,

> > Here is something to ponder:

> >

> > Among the worlds mystical tradition it is known that to become

one

> > with The Divine, one has to:

> > Die to ones (lower)self,(ego mind); Death of ego; Annihilation

> > (Fana), different ways of expressing the same concept. One

famous

> lady was taught by by her Guru, an Indian Sufi Saint, " there is

> nothing but nothingness " , when she found THAT nothingness, she was

> at one with her then dead Guru and her GOD.

> >

> > B.G. 15.11. The yogis striving (for perfection) behold him

dwelling

> > in the Self; but, the unrefined and unintelligent, even Though

> striving, see him not.

> >

> > Sacred books and wise council at this site, can point one in the

> > right direction. I am not sure where flashy cars, a fine

physique,

> and worldly status can point you.

> >

> > To the question, '..then how will the world work?'.

> > There is a Zen saying " Before enlightenment, chop wood, carry

> water.

> > After enlightenment, chop wood, carry water " .

> >

> > And surely the people who offer sustenance to holy people, do it

> > because they have reverence for them! An act of Divine Love.

> >

> > With Respect and Divine Love,

> >

> > Mike

> > (Mike Keenor)

> > --------------------------------

--

> >

> >

> > >

> > > Narayan Narayan,

> > >

> > > May you attain salvation

> > > You have not created this world, it's functioning is not your

> > responsibility. This world is perishing every moment, in that

you

> > have no control. Why are you unnecessarily and uselessly

troubled

> > by these things? You have not understood the inner sentiments of

> > Swamiji's points. He who does not understand properly, he

becomes

> a

> > master of half and incomplete knowledge. He who, in spite of

> > knowing, if he does not give up (sacrifice) the unreal

(perishing,

> > temporary), that is one of the greatest losses.

> > >

> > > R. C Vyas

> > > ------------------------------

--

> -

> > >

> > > Hari Om

> > >

> > > Re Nothing is Mine

> > >

> > > I fully agree with Pratapji Bhatt. Swamiji never asked anyone

to

> > leave the house or relationships etc. Change is needed inside by

> way

> > of acceptance of truth ! Change is needed at " assumption level " -

> > not in outer conduct/behaviour. We are sufferring because of

wrong

> > assumptions. We are confused because we have not accepted the

truth

> > inside our heart.

> > >

> > > What is the truth? Truth is that- NOTHING IS MINE !

> > >

> > > What is " mine " ? A thing/body can be stated to be " mine " if we

> have

> > independent control over it; if it is born with us only and

remains

> > always with us, and when we are not there it departs with us

only.

> (

> > If a thing is " mine " then what is it doing here in this world

after

> > I am dead? It is " mine " - how then it can be of others?) Then

only

> > it can be ours - or there is any other way of something being

ours?

> > ( Vijayji please deliberate here- Come On! ) A thing which

meets

> us

> > and later departs - how can that thing be ours? How can any sane

> > mind call that thing to be ours, which from the very moment of

> > connection with you is disconnecting from you? (Vijayji- can you

> > give any examples of any thing which has different

characteristics?

> > Please enlighten!)

> > >

> > > If body is " yours " , then don't allow it to fall sick. Let it

> > never grow old! At least don't allow it to die ! ! Can you ensure

> > that ? ( Vijayji -can you ensure that ?) If you cannot, then how

> > can you assume it is yours ? Is body coming nearer to you every

> > passing second or going away from you every moment ? How it is

> yours

> > if it is going away from you every second ?

> > >

> > > What is dishonesty? You are called " dishonest " , if you claim

> > something to be yours while in fact it is not yours. Is there any

> > other way in which dishonesty can be defined? If we call this

body,

> > these worldly things, etc to be ours then - are we honest or

> > dishonest ? ? Deliberate Vijayji here on these points! Come

on ! !

> > Consider these written words as blog only !

> > >

> > > What is reality? The fact is that this body, mind, intellect,

> ego,

> > these worldly things, situations, status, wealth, health,

> affluence,

> > relatives - all - everything which changes- everything except

> > Paramatma / Self/ Conscience :-

> > >

> > > 1 They are not yours !

> > >

> > > 2 They are not for you also!

> > >

> > > 3 They have been given to you for a predetermined time !

> > >

> > > 4.They shall be taken back from you !

> > >

> > > Now ponder upon the above discussion. Ask as many questions as

> you

> > can. Argue till you don't get convinced or till you don't

convince

> > me - on the aforesaid facts. Then we shall resume tomorrow,

further

> > in the matter.

> > >

> > > Jai Shree Krishna

> > >

> > > Vyas N B

> > > ------------------------------

--

> --

> > > There is need to understand that there are two identities in

the

> > question below. Unfortunately, we refuse to distinguish between

> > these two identities. These are the 'mind' and the 'body'. Having

> > understood this basic issue, it is easy to find an answer.

> > >

> > > " Nothing is mine, I need nothing, I have no relationship " are

all

> > a function of the mind. When Gitaji says these words, it is to

> > highlight that there should be no attachment with the world.

> > >

> > > Doing things in the world are a function of body. When Gitaji

> says

> > these words, it is to highlight that 'Kartavya Karma' should

> > continue to be performed.

> > >

> > > I hope this will help Vijayji find an answer.

> > >

> > > A.H.Dalmia

> > >

> > >

> > > ------------------------------

--

> --

> > >

> > > Ram Ram,

> > > Vijayji has asked good question. However, one thing needs to

be

> > > understood that this world is created by Krishna and is run by

> > divine

> > > mother with the wishes of the supreme God (Shri Krishna) as it

is

> > his

> > > leela. Therefore, Shri Krishna very well knows that if all

> people

> > > follow his principles, there would not be any universe. As

long

> as

> > > the world exists there will be beings which would not follow

> these

> > > principles. But what we need to focus upon is to follow his

> > > principles in the Gita instead of worrying about what happens

if

> > all

> > > follows. That is Shri Krishna's problem not our problem.

> > >

> > > Ram Ram

> > > Sudhir Kalra

> > >

> > > ------------------------------

--

> --

> > > I agree with the question, understand it too but the problem

lies

> > in

> > > implementing it fully. Yes fully, at times I do so and when I

do

> > so,

> > > I feel happy, away from the tensions and sorrows of the world.

> But

> > > don't know how I miss the track and again I fall in the well of

> > > ignorance. This cycle goes on and on. I have used the

> > > word 'implement', actually it's wrong, every thing happens on

> > > itself. But since the situation is not permanent though I don't

> > have

> > > any doubts, I have used this word.

> > >

> > > Goenka

> > > ------------------------------

--

> --

> > > On a personal note, when I started to read Bhagwat Gita, the

> > > question in mind was whether I become Sanyasi and abondon many

of

> > > actvities but it was in fact an explanation of WORK and

> worshipping

> > > Sri Krishna only by WORK. By not possessiveness, WORK becomes

> more

> > > objective and transparent and income level rises. The money or

> > > increased ability is not interference but a resource like

water

> or

> > > earth which is in hand of NISHKAAM KARMI.

> > >

> > > In the Bhagwat Gita, I learnt 'updrishta anumanta ch... ' and

> this

> > > is enough of my conviction and most practical. Slowly, I got

> > > understanding of more words and ideas. So, the question of

> > > livelihood, and success and excellence are not opposed to

> > > renunciation or Sannyaas.

> > > Regards

> > > K G

> > > (Krishna Gopal)

> > > ------------------------------

-

> > >

> > > In response to Vijayi's question, my humble attempts to offer

a

> few

> > > thoughts,

> > >

> > > So often in life, we are not able to hold onto various

> > > assets. Money isn't there for a car payment, the car is

> > repossessed. No moeny for apartment rent, one has to go and stay

> > with a

> > > relative, something is stolen, as a wallet etc. One who truly

> > knows, is not disturbed. He is equipoised, as the understanding

> > that " these things are not mine " has become realized knowledge.

> The

> > awareness that, try as we may, we are not the ultimate

controller

> of

> > all that happens, is a very high level of understanding. We

should

> > also know, that if in our heart the desire has awakened to be

> > detached from worldly things, and develop that intimate, loving

> > relationship with God, then the Lord in the heart will hear that

> > desire.

> > >

> > > Being a renunciate doesn't necessarily entail living the

> > > life of a wandering mendicant with no possessions....it means

to

> > understand that nothing is this world is truly ours. " Ours " is

only

> > the desire to serve the Lord, or serve our own whims. Whatever

has

> > been put into our care, use it as much as possible to glorify and

> > serve the Lord, whether it is our children, wealth, our home,

our

> > intelligence....whatever we have should be used to serve

> > > Sri Krsna (or however we call the Lord)

> > >

> > > The sadhak lives on two levels, one is the internal

> understanding,

> > that nothing is mine, save and except the desire to serve the

> > > Lord, and then the external awareness, according to one's place

> > and status in life. The internal awareness, if truly on the

> > > level of realization (jnana) will constantly manifest in

external

> > > dealings, for instance, if one is externally somewhat well-off,

> > with a little money in the pocket, and a beggar comes, needing

some

> > food, one who is fully aware of his own " non-ownership " will be

> > quite willing to give in charity, if able, whereas one who

> > thinks, " this is mine, I worked hard for it " will not so

willingly

> > give.

> > >

> > > my dear Vijayji, truly, without putting our relationship

> > > with the Lord first, our lives are wasted. Those who have

> > dedicated their lives to helping give this knowledge, of simple

> > living, high thinking, of making the Lord the center of our

worship

> > rather than our own bodies and minds, they are providing the

> > greatest service to humanity. Can we have even the basic needs

of

> > a human being, such as food grains and water, without the mercy

of

> > the Lord? No.

> > > Whatever we have is His mercy and kindness, and we should

> > constantly

> > > be striving to re-awaken our relationship with Him. That is

> > gratitude, not that we take food, clothing, sunlight, etc....and

> > ignore that Person who is giving us these things.

> > >

> > > Hoping my words have not offended anyone,

> > > Mahalaksmi Dasi

> > >

> > > ------------------------------

--

> --

> > -

> > > , " sadhak_insight "

> > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Shree Hari

> > > > Ram Ram

> > > >

> > > > FROM MODERATOR:

> > > >

> > > > Dear Divine Sadhaks,

> > > >

> > > > Vijayji has posed a wonderful question that will benefit

many

> of

> > > us !

> > > >

> > > > Question: If everybody follows " Nothing Is Mine " and " I Do

not

> > > need

> > > > anything " and specially " I do not have any relationship with

> > > anybody "

> > > > then how will the world work? The saints are able to do

> sainthood

> > > > because there are people who pay for them. Do you have a

blog

> or

> > > > area where people can discuss these thoughts? Vijay Aggraval

> > > >

> > > > I appeal / encourage you all to not be passive by-standers,

but

> > to

> > > > step up to the challenge of the question being asked. Let

us

> all

> > > > take this divine opportunity, to carefully and attentively

> review

> > > the

> > > > message from Swamiji, the question and the responses so far.

If

> > > there

> > > > is any doubts, to bring it forward to the group.

> > > >

> > > > I encourage Vijayji, Simiji and all others that have

expressed

> > > > concern on similar or related topics in the past; to name a

> > few -

> > > > Madan Gupta, Anilji Bhanot, Vavamenonji, and any others to

> > > > deliberate / respond with your very brief answers. Vijayji,

> since

> > > we

> > > > do not have a blog at this time, you may react from time to

> time

> > > more

> > > > actively, by asking counter questions, feeling free to

> > participate

> > > in

> > > > full, to gain clarification of any doubts that you may have

> > > related

> > > > to the topic being discussed.

> > > >

> > > > We shall allow maximum time span for this question until

doubts

> > of

> > > > sadhaks are clarified. In fact, there will be no new

questions

> > > > posted till this question has reached to a logical

> conclusion. I

> > > > therefore expect that all sadhaks will be fully engaged in

this

> > > > discussion. Such questions / answers can be transforming.

> > > >

> > > > Thank you all for this Jnana ganga !

> > > >

> > > > From Gita Talk Moderator

> > > > Ram Ram

> > > >

> > > > ----------------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > -

> > > >

> > > > Hari Om

> > > >

> > > > The apprehension as to whether the world will work or not

> denotes

> > > a

> > > > presumption that the entire world is " driven by desires "

only.

> > > There

> > > > can not be any desireless actions at all and if the

desireless

> > > > actions are resorted to by anybody, the world comes to a

> > grinding

> > > > halt - at least for that body ! Too over confident an

> > observation

> > > > indeed !

> > > >

> > > > The observation reg the Saints is too bad - unbelievably

bad.

> Who

> > > can

> > > > pay for Saints? No body can ever pay for them or repay them

for

> > > what

> > > > they give to humanity at large. Judgement cannot be passed if

> > > there

> > > > is a question/doubt.

> > > >

> > > > Even without face to face interaction, the subject can be

> > > discussed

> > > > and grasped - if we utilise our power " to accept/believe "

> and " to

> > > > know " correctly. You know that you have these powers. Hence

> > kindly

> > > > now position yourself with an open, receptive, comprehending,

> > > > willing, ready to understand, logical, rationale, scientific,

> > > > patient, serious and impartial (equanimous) mind set and

follow

> > > what

> > > > all sadhaks respond pursuant to your question. I will too

> > > contribute

> > > > from time to time.

> > > >

> > > > You of course will have ample opportunities of expressing

your

> > > views,

> > > > of counter arguing , etc. You may even respond against each

and

> > > every

> > > > observation given by various Sadhaks of this Gita Talk

Group.

> We

> > > > shall definitely make an effort to convince you - by sheer

> power

> > > of

> > > > the truth !

> > > >

> > > > If you are ready and have power of belief in you, then first

> > > believe

> > > > that in such deliberations ultimately the truth prevails. You

> > will

> > > > have to be patient, though. Believe me, your question

otherwise

> > is

> > > > excellent and will help many. The answers will be eye

openers.

> > > >

> > > > Jai Shree Krishna

> > > >

> > > > Vyas N B

> > > >

> > > > ----------------------------

--

> --

> > -

> > > > Dear Sadhus, Master!

> > > >

> > > > If one takes the literal meaning of " nothing is mine " or " I

> > don't

> > > > have any relationship with anybody " , it will sound confusing.

> > > > However, these statements asks us to develop and live with

> such

> > > > inner attitude when dealing with world. Obviously we all are

> > > > interdependent on one another, rather, this entire universe

> works

> > > as

> > > > though it is one system. We all need the basic minimum, like

> > food,

> > > > shelter, clothing, and may be few others for survival. As

can

> be

> > > > seen, these require us to function harmoniously in society.

> > > >

> > > > What happens is that we get attached to " me " and mineness

> becomes

> > > so

> > > > real, so important to us that we forget our

interdependencies,

> > > > duties, righteousness etc and end up developing greed, envy,

> > > jealousy

> > > > and other negative emotions. This leads us to suffering.

> > > > Swamiji's message below is very clear: In order to free

> ourselves

> > > > from suffering, we need to be detached from the things of the

> > > world.

> > > > As made by God, we are complete in ourselves inwardly, we

just

> > > need

> > > > to realize it by our inner attitude suggested here.

> > > >

> > > > To do so would require me to live and deal with world with an

> > > inner

> > > > attitude as if nothing is mine. When established firmly in

this

> > > > attitude, I will realize the truth of other statements of

> > > Swamiji: " I

> > > > have no relationship with anyone " , " I don't need

> anything " , " Only

> > > God

> > > > is mine "

> > > >

> > > > One doesn't need to avoid or escape from the world or things

of

> > > the

> > > > world which will clearly indicate aversions same as

attachments

> > > and

> > > > continuation of suffering. However, one sees God in all(God

is

> > > mine

> > > > in this sense), is filled with only love, compassion and

serves

> > > all.

> > > > After all when God takes care of such a one as promised in

Gita

> > > 9:22,

> > > > (.....Yoga kshemam vahamyaham), He does it through people and

> > > nature.

> > > > Such a one, while not selfishly related to anyone, is truly

> > > related

> > > > to all as if they are one.

> > > >

> > > > In summary, Swamiji asks us that while outwardly being

> > > > interdependent, be unattached and not depend on anyone or

> > anything

> > > > inwardly for our own comforts, and happiness. This is

because

> in

> > > > doing so, we will be inevitably unhappy due to changing

nature

> of

> > > > world. In this way when we are detached, we will be

objective

> and

> > > > have a right perspective for things of the world.

> > > > Namaskar....

> > > >

> > > > Pratap

> > > > (Pratap Bhatt)

> > > > ----------------------------

--

> --

> > -

> > > >

> > > > Dear Vijayji

> > > >

> > > > Bhagwat Gita in chapter 16 says that people have either a

> > tendency

> > > of

> > > > liberation or bondage. These natural defense traits are

called

> > > DAIVY

> > > > and AASURI sampada. DAIVY sampada is about PARITTYAG. This

> means,

> > > not

> > > > leaving or abondoning anything but retaining the freewill so

> that

> > > > things do not become addiction and one is aware of self

nature

> of

> > > > free-will. This retaining of free will is called PARITTAAG.

For

> > > > example, a man becomes vegeterian or non-smoker or sugar

free

> or

> > > non-

> > > > competitive not because non-vegeterian food, smoking or

sugar

> or

> > > > competitive mentality are bad or good; but the particular

man

> has

> > > now

> > > > discovered his own nature and these consumptions are slowly

> > > becoming

> > > > irrelevant.

> > > >

> > > > Consumption is two types. One, personal and two, impersonal.

> When

> > > one

> > > > is hungry and eats something alone, this is personal. But if

> one

> > > does

> > > > not eat and offers food to his hungry wife or hungry

children

> or

> > > > employees to save their lives first, this consumption is

> indirect

> > > or

> > > > impersonal. Sri Krishna says that He at one stage is BHOKTA

> > > > (consumer) but not directly. And when people eat food, or

have

> > > peace

> > > > and love, this consumption is like happiness of great grand

> > father

> > > in

> > > > joint family who consumes all happiness by watching a large

> happy

> > > > family, united. This state of mind of impersonal consumer is

> Sri

> > > > Krishna. So Sri Krishna is a consumer (BHOKTA) but not

> directly.

> > > In

> > > > another sloka in Bhagwat Gita, Sri Krishna says His devout to

> > > serve

> > > > all living being (SARVA BHOOT RATE HITAH) because it tastes

> much

> > > > better if consumption is indirect.

> > > >

> > > > Sri Krishna is called GOVIND and GOPTA just for same

reasoning.

> > He

> > > is

> > > > secret commission agent for whatever exchanges takes place in

> > > living

> > > > being. By consuming a sample of exchanges, He gets to know

> > level

> > > of

> > > > impersonal consumption. Therefore, Krishna bhakt have no ill

> > > feeling

> > > > towards one another because a part of this feeling like

poison

> > > goes

> > > > to Sri Krishna who is a GOPTA or GOVIND or commission agent

or

> > > > intermediary of exchanges.

> > > >

> > > > Regards

> > > > Krishna Gopal

> > > >

> > > > ----------------------------

--

> --

> > -

> > > > Somehow I agree with you Mr Vijay!

> > > >

> > > > Simi S.

> > > > ----------------------------

--

> --

> > -

> > > >

> > > > Jai Shri Krishna,

> > > >

> > > > Sadhak Vijayji appears to be confused and somewhat scared of

> > > > accepting simple and logical steps suggested by Swamiji for

> > > > fulfillment of the very objective for which the human life

has

> > > been

> > > > given. I will surely contribute in the deliberations but

before

> > > that

> > > > I am reminded of a short story which I want to share with

> > Sadhaks.

> > > >

> > > > There was a married couple residing together for 6-7 years.

> > > >

> > > > One evening wife said to the husband - Look I am fed up now

> > with

> > > > you. I am not happy with the care which you are taking of me.

> > Last

> > > > month you promised a Jhumka (jewellery) for me, but you never

> > > bought

> > > > it for me. I am not enjoying your company anymore. I have

> > selected

> > > a

> > > > new companion for me who will take me away with him tomorrow

> > > morning

> > > > at 8 AM. Till tomorrow morning I am yours and thereafter,

Good

> > > Bye!

> > > > We have met in this life, please do not meet me again here

or

> in

> > > the

> > > > heavens.

> > > >

> > > > Husband was stunned. He pleaded, said he would get two

Jhumkas

> > > > instead of one and a good dress as well. He said - Please

don't

> > > leave

> > > > me. How the neighbors, the society will look toward me and

see

> > me?

> > > > Please! I am sorry.

> > > >

> > > > But wife was adamant. He tried his level best to convince

her

> but

> > > > could not succeed. It was 11 pm in the winter night. They

were

> > > living

> > > > in a small village with 100/150 houses. Suddenly husband

went

> on

> > > the

> > > > roof top of the house and started calling - Villagers...

> > Villagers

> > > > Pls come and gather around now. 15/20 people came and asked

him

> > as

> > > to

> > > > the matter.

> > > >

> > > > Husband said- I have decided to divorce my wife. Villagers

pls

> > > note.

> > > >

> > > > Now wife kept on uttering - I left, I left I left him first -

 

> but

> > > no

> > > > one heard her.

> > > >

> > > > The villagers asked- any other thing. Husband said - No

Thank

> > > you, I

> > > > just wanted to keep you all posted. You may go now.

> > > >

> > > > When he returned to the bed room from the roof top, wife

told -

> > > you

> > > > are a very bad person, a liar - I left you and you told

> villagers

> > > > that you left me ! Explain !

> > > >

> > > > Husband said - Look I tried to convince you a lot, but you

did

> > not

> > > > agree. Then why I should lower my moustache ! ! ! Before you

> > leave

> > > > me, I have left you !

> > > >

> > > > So Vijayji - why we should lower our moustache ? Before this

> > > world,

> > > > these relatives, this body, this money, this wealth, this

> health,

> > > > this affluence, this status, this power, these rights, this

> > > beauty,

> > > > this youth, these abilities, this position, these

> circumstances,

> > > > these situations, these thoughts, etc leave us, why we

should

> not

> > > > leave them? Are they not leaving us? Has not your childhood

> left

> > > you?

> > > > Is not your body continuously leaving you? If you have to be

> with

> > > a

> > > > particular relative for 30 years and you have lived with

him /

> > her

> > > > already for 1 year, has not he/she gone away already by that

> one

> > > > year? Is not that relationship drifting every second away

from

> > you?

> > > >

> > > > What are you waiting for ? Who has asked you to leave them ?

> But

> > > > can't you even accept the simple fact that they are not

yours?

> > Are

> > > > they not leaving you continuously ? Any doubt on that ? What

is

> > > wrong

> > > > in accepting a fact of life ? Can you deny this fact?

> > > >

> > > > So think Vijayji. Why you should lower your moustache ? She

is

> > > going

> > > > to leave you most certainly. Definitely. Why don't you leave

> her?

> > > >

> > > > Narayana Narayana

> > > >

> > > > Rajendra J Bohra

> > > > ----------------------------

--

> --

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Hari Om

> > > > Re NOTHING IS MINE

> > > >

> > > > At the outset I must state that there is no need for you,

> > > Vijayji,

> > > > to worry excessively for the world. You have expressed

rather

> too

> > > > much of a worry for the world. Believe me, the world is not

> going

> > > to

> > > > turn upside down, or come to a grinding halt, if you accept

any

> > or

> > > > all of the suggestions contained in the Article referred by

> > > you ! ! !

> > > > On the contrary it shall become far far better for you ! It

is

> > too

> > > > big a world to worry. An individual like you or me is too too

> > > small

> > > > to worry for it.There are systems and procedures, laws ,

which

> > > govern

> > > > the workings of the world and the activities of each and

every

> > > > creature of this world. When our kindselves were not there

in

> > > this

> > > > world say 100 years before, then also this world was working

> and

> > > when

> > > > we shall be consigned to the flames say after maximum 100

> years ,

> > > > then also the world will remain. We therefore should worry

> about

> > > our

> > > > salvation, our interests, our goal rather than taking the

> onerous

> > > > responsibility of wondering as to how the world will work if

we

> > > > follow " Nothing is Mine " etc. or what shall be the fate if

> > > everybody

> > > > starts doing desireless actions or start saying- Nothing is

> Mine.

> > > > Your job is to find out first whether the statement is

correct

> or

> > > > not ! Let the world go how it is going so far. Reasonable ?.

> > > >

> > > > Saints have said:-

> > > >

> > > > Tere Baave Jo kare Bhalo Buro Sansaar, Narain tu Baith ke

Apna

> > > Bhuvan

> > > > Buhaar

> > > > (You damn care what the world is doing – Good or Bad. You

> should

> > > > concentrate on cleaning your own house)

> > > >

> > > > Hence you should concentrate on what is your responsibility,

> your

> > > > duty, your role, your liability, your goal, your betterment,

> your

> > > > improvement, your interest, your benefit, your development !

I

> > let

> > > > you think that way. You may ask me why I have stated so, when

> > > nothing

> > > > is " yours " . I know you will not ask it. You have understood.

> > > >

> > > > Anything illogical so far? Any thing which is confusing ?

> > Anything

> > > > which is unclear?

> > > >

> > > > Feel free to first deliberate upon the aforesaid. Then we

shall

> > > move

> > > > to the first acceptance – NOTHING IS MINE . Kindly be free,

> > open,

> > > > and active in deliberations. Be assured that in such

> > deliberations

> > > in

> > > > the end only the TRUTH PREVAILS ! Have that belief in you !

> > > >

> > > > Jai Shree Krishna

> > > >

> > > > Vyas N B

> > > >

> > > > ----------------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > -

> > > >

> > > > , " sadhak_insight "

> > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > It is so confusing.

> > > > > If everybody follows " Nothing Is Mine " and " I Do not need

> > > anything "

> > > > > and specially " I do not have any relationship with anybody "

> > then

> > > > how

> > > > > will the world work?

> > > > > The saints are able to do sainthood because there are

people

> > who

> > > > pay

> > > > > for them.

> > > > > Do you have a blog or area where people can discuss these

> > > thoughts?

> > > > >

> > > > > Thanks

> > > > > Vijay Aggraval

> > > > > -------------------

> > > > >

> > > > > On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 10:39 AM, sadhak_insight

> > > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > 2nd July, 2008, Wednesday

> > > > > Aashaad Krishna Chaturdashi, Vikram Samvat 2065, Budhvar

> > > > >

> > > > > Every human being is completely independent, powerful,

> capable

> > > and

> > > > > eligible in his salvation (kalyaan). The reason is that

when

> > God

> > > > > gives human body to jeeva (embodied soul), he also gives

to

> him

> > > the

> > > > > independence, power, capability and eligibility for his

> > > salvation

> > > > > (kalyaan).

> > > > >

> > > > > Now the question arises, what one should do for the same?

The

> > > > answer

> > > > > is that if a person firmly accepts the following four

things

> > > then

> > > > > his kalyaan is certain :-

> > > > >

> > > > > 1. Nothing is Mine.

> > > > > 2. I do not need anything.

> > > > > 3. I do not have any relationship with anybody.

> > > > > 4. Only God is my own.

> > > > >

> > > > > The fundamental fault is to assume " mineness " with the

> > temporary

> > > > > worldly things. From this fault alone all other faults

arise.

> > In

> > > > > fact in this entire universe not even a thing like hair is

> > ours.

> > > > > Thereforth as soon as we accept " nothing is mine " - there

> comes

> > > > > faultlessness in us and we instantly become " dharmatma " (a

> pure

> > > > holy

> > > > > soul).

> > > > >

> > > > > When nothing is ours, then what is there to desire? Hence

as

> > > soon

> > > > we

> > > > > accept- " I do not need anything " , we become " nishkaam "

> > > (desireless)

> > > > > and henceforth a " Yogi " as you acquire Equanimity. -

> " samatvam

> > > yog

> > > > > uchyate " (Gita 2: 48)

> > > > >

> > > > > The essential self (svaroop) of every human being

is " asang "

> > > > > (naturally detached). Therefore as soon as we decline to

> accept

> > > any

> > > > > relationship with any body or any thing that comes

together

> and

> > > > > later departs, we realise our self proven, obvious

> > > disassociation

> > > > or

> > > > > detachment. And as soon as we realise our obvious

detachment,

> > we

> > > > > become " jnani " (knowledgeable).

> > > > >

> > > > > We are essentially a part of God - Gita 15:7. Hence only

God

> is

> > > > > ours. Nobody else is ours. As soon as we accept our mine-

ness

> > > with

> > > > > God, we become " Bhakta " (devotee of God).

> > > > >

> > > > > A human being's kalyaan (salvation) is only vested in his

> being

> > > > > Dharmatma Yogi (pure holy soul, with equanimity and free

of

> all

> > > > > desires), in being Detached and in being a Devotee of God.

> > > > > Therefore it is a spiritual aspirant's duty that he accept

> > these

> > > > > four worthy facts with a firm conviction. Then his

salvation

> is

> > > > > definite.

> > > > >

> > > > > From " Maanav Matra ke kalyaan ke liye " in Hindi pg 69/70,

by

> > > Swami

> > > > > Ramsukhdasji

> > > > >

> > > > > Ram Ram

> > > > > --------------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > > > GUIDELINES FOR POSTING A RESPONSE:

> > > > >

> > > > > 1. The group is focused on the Holy Gitaji, therefore, only

> > > > > responses which further clarify the understanding of

Gitaji,

> > > will

> > > > be

> > > > > posted.

> > > > >

> > > > > 2. Making reference of Gitaji shloka is highly encouraged -

 

> at

> > > > least

> > > > > once in the response. Wherever possible, please quote

Gitaji

> > or

> > > > > other scriptures to substantiate your response.

> > > > >

> > > > > 3. Please be as concise and to the point as possible,

> > respecting

> > > > > sadhaka's time. Under no circustance the answer should

exceed

> > > say

> > > > > one (book) page at the most (500 words or so) 3-4

paragraphs.

> > > > >

> > > > > 4. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc.

to

> > the

> > > > > extent that they further help in understanding the Gita

> shlokas

> > > > >

> > > > > 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only.

> > > > >

> > > > > 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other

> > > > > organizations.

> > > > >

> > > > > 7. Complete reproduction of texts from any book is strongly

> > > > > discouraged, however references may be made of the book or

> > > author

> > > > > (but not links to other sites).

> > > > >

> > > > > 8. Kindly do not include your personal information such as

> > phone

> > > > > number, address etc.

> > > > >

> > > > > 9. Please do not address the response to a particular

> > individual

> > > > > since the message is going to the entire group.

> > > > >

> > > > > 10. Due to the large readership, only those responses will

be

> > > > posted

> > > > > which are in line with the general philosophy of taking

> Shrimad

> > > > > Bhagavad Gita as the reference.

> > > > >

> > > > > 11. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if

> > > content

> > > > > is unclear for distribution or not directly related to the

> > > question

> > > > > being asked.

> > > > >

> > > > > 12. Please respond taking into consideration the novices,

> > youth,

> > > > > westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use of

> > only

> > > > > Sanskrit words, rather provide the English word with

Sanskrit

> > > > > bracketed wherever possible.

> > > > >

> > > > > 13. Any personal remarks over the knowledge of any sadhak

or

> > > about

> > > > > the

> > > > > stage at which any sadhak is standing in his quest /

sadhna /

> > > > > spiritual journey - must not be included in your posting.''

> > > > >

> > > > > 14. There should not be any sarcasm towards fellow sadhaks

in

> > > this

> > > > > spiritual learning and sharing.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > MODERATOR

> > > > > Ram Ram

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Follow-up Question: My respects to all in this forum....I have a

few questions which I am requesting Mr. Vyas to clarify.

 

I am in disagreement, perhaps due to my lack of understanding, why

it is said (below) that to rejects, associate or disassociate are

not actions;...even on a mundane level, these are considered verbs,

which are action words.....what to speak of the fact that I, the

soul, has to choose to accept a course of action before it is

undertaken...I have always held the opposite opinion, that action

begins first from the subtle level....Lord Brahma did not manifest

the universe by taking the elements in his hands and combining them

one by one, did he? Rather, it would appear that it was a subtle

process, brought on by the yogic abilities to move matter through a

thought process....which stems from desire. To desire is not an

intangible " thing " ....rather, it is an action of the soul. We must

carefully analyze what it is we desire, otherwise, we will manifest

through our actions conduct which will bring about pain and

suffering.

 

In another paragraph, it is writtten, " This world is

like Kalpa Vriksha (proverbial wish yielding tree)- here as you

think, so it manifests. If you think, it is a long journey - then it

becomes long, indeed ! " So, the idea here is in accord to what I

am thinking, I am merely not understanding your choice of wording in

the opening paragraph. Thank you for the clarification.

 

Mahalaksmi Dasi

--------------------------------

 

Hari Om

 

The thoughts are outputs of mind, which is part of nature/body.

In " self " there are no thoughts - because " self " is beyond nature.

What thoughts do you have when you are in deep sleep? Self comes

into our mind's peripheral as a reflection only. There are two

things.

 

1) The output or function of mind.

2) That which enters the mind involuntarily - as reflection

say " experience " or " realisation " .

 

" Conscience " in fact enters the mind and reflects/shines there so

does " equanimity " and many other things including " acceptance. "

Remembrance (smriti) also enters the mind. They reflect/shine

through the mind.

 

Thoughts are functions of mind, getting activated because of

commands of ego and intellect and because of desires. It is a

subject in itself.

 

Mahalaxmiji, for your benefit, some examples of action and non-

action are being provided. We can not know our mind by

mixing /identifying " Self " with it. We can know the mind/body (and

for that matter the entire world) only by being separate from it.

 

There is no thought/action/mind involved in Love (Prem). (Real Love

is blind and mindless / thoughtless - it is direct experience of all

of us). When we check with our Conscience - is mind/thought/body

involved in Love ( PREM)? Similarly there is no thought or mind or

action or body involved in Surrender/ Nishkaam Bhaav (desirlessness

as inner expression) / Shraddha (belief) / Vishwas (faith/trust)/

Devotion/Equanimity/ Remembering / Realising/ Experiencing / Love (

Prem)/ Tyaag (rejection/renunciation)/Association / Disassociation /

Adoption ! Only SELF is involved in each of these ! (Now -

what " verbs " or " Nouns " or " words " are going to do here - as

mentioned by you ?? )

 

Therefore by using these means only " Self " can realise Paramatma ,

because there is no shelter or use of mind, prakriti (nature), body

in these! There is no " action " of mind, speech or other organs of

body in these !! These are beyond Nature/Mind/Body and hence they

are means of Paramatma/ Self Realisation

 

Think and tell me, what " action " according to you is involved when a

son /daughter " accepts " someone as his/her father? What is the role

of thoughts or mind or body in that acceptance? Think over this

deeply - you will find the answer.

 

In fact, there is no role of mind/thoughts/ body there! Self only

gets involved there. Self " associates " itself with Prakriti (

Nature/ body / mind), gets " attracted " to the world (Gita 15:7,

13:21), Self " adopts " (Gita 7:5) the world and body and pays the

penalty thereof by way of " experiencing " pleasures and pains (Gita

13:20)! All actions are done only by Nature or the modes of nature

(13:20). Self has to " disassociate " from Prakriti (Nature) and reap

the benefits of Liberation / Realisation etc. Self " remembers " its

eternal connection (Gita 18:73) with Paramatma ! " Self " realises

Paramatma ! What is the " action " involved in experiencing /

realising /remembering / associating /adopting ? If everything is

mind then what is beyond mind?

 

We don't " know " anything about Paramatma, our mind, intellect

don't " know " any thing about Paramatma - now where is a question

of " thoughts " here? We have no way but to " believe/accept " - what is

role of mind there? If we use our mind there what else we will hit

except the brick wall - to quote Brother Mike ? What is needed

except Self when we " accept " some one as our father or when we

accept Paramatma as our own or something as our caste or someone as

our husband ? Where and what is " action " there? What is used out of

body for that action? There is no action in acceptance.

 

Let us say we are looking at a river, we don't know which river.

Somebody tells us it is Ganga and we immediately realise! What

action is involved in our realising that it is Holy Ganga?

 

Balance in next edition if still not clear. Regarding Brahma example

also suffers the same limitation. Desires/thoughts can never be the

actions of soul... NEVER !! How then they can be the actions of

Brahma ? Anything which changes be it desires or thoughts or mind or

body can not be part of " SELF " It is fundamental thing. Read Gita –

Chaper 2 – Verses 11 to 31 to begin with – there you will find the

difference between soul and body.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

 

--------------------------------

 

Original Question: If everybody follows " Nothing Is Mine " and " I Do

not need anything " and specially " I do not have any relationship

with anybody " then how will the world work? The saints are able to

do sainthood because there are people who pay for them. Do you have

a blog or area where people can discuss these thoughts?

Vijay Aggraval

--

Jai Shri Krishna,

 

Re: Sadhak Vijayji's Query – NOTHING IS MINE

 

In reality, this world and everything is owned by Parmaatma, but

when we try to exercise our right over it (encroachment) we get

stucked with it.

 

The money, things etc., which we consider to be ours, we become

their slave – but we assume ourselves to be their master. The money,

property, things, family etc. which we consider to be ours, we get

tied up with them and it becomes our responsibility to care for

them. Those which we do not consider to be ours, we are not stuck

due to them at all. Vijayji, just ponder over this logic.

 

We are only tied up with whatever few properties, few people, few

things and few rupees in the world. Those which we do not consider

ours, we are already ABSOLUTELY liberated (untied) from. What is

Liberation (Mukti) – it means to get freed. Thus, we are 99.9999999%

LIBERATED (Mukta) only. Just little liberation is required to be

obtained.

 

This " mineness " with the worldly things and people is the outcome of

ego - which is positioned in the causal body. Another explanation

given in the scriptures for causal body is " ignorance " . Visa-a-vis

those which we don't attach mineness, whether they come or go, it

does not affect us. We become positioned in Equanimity (Samta) as

regards them.

 

To believe that world is governed by desires is in simple words -

STUPIDITY. Refer Swamiji's message of today morning. He

stated " foolishness " to be cause of our miseries. He is absolutely

right. What is stupidity? A person is called stupid, if he has two

characteristics:

1. He does not know reality himself and;

2. He does not listen to others

 

Now who can make him wise? Even if Paramatma Himself comes before a

stupid person - He will fail to impart wisdom. Because, as a habit

that person does not listen to others and Paramatma is " other " only

for him.

 

A person called his son's hostel in-charge to enquire the progress

being made by the son. The principal told that the son is doing

great except for two things – he does not know anything and he does

not listen to anyone. The person understood that his son is a stupid.

 

It is sheer stupidity (foolishness) to waist this golden opportunity

to get liberated so easily (with significantly substantial

liberation already there).

 

By considering perishable things as ours, we get entangled in them

and deviate from our main aim of realizing Parmaatma. These

perishable things were not ours 100 years ago and will not remain

ours 100 years hereafter – there is no doubt as to this. If we do

not consider them as ours and instead treat them as Parmaatma's and

put them to best use, then we will not get entangled with them.

 

If we heed to the Saints and Sages, Scriptures, our elders,

Preceptors, the voice of our Conscience, then the lack of knowledge

will evaporate and we shall become wise. But that is not acceptable

to the mind, from where the stupidity generates. Mind loves to make

us his slave. It changes shamelessly also. When we achieve something

this mind tells us - " Look how great I am " . We also join the chorus -

" My mind, My Intelligence, My Vision, My desires, My efforts " !

But when we are unsuccessful , the same mind tells us - " it

happens, I was right, but this situation, that happening, fate,

destiny, time, was bad - I was right " - Non Sense.

 

We should never trust mind. It changes. We should trust our

Conscience instead. It never changes. If you ask your Conscience-

Whether worldly things are mine- the answer will be - No ! Whether

You need anything- the answer will be - No ! Whether you have any

relationship with any body- the answer will be- No. Whether the

Paramatma is mine- the answer will be - Yes !

 

Let us all try - seeking answers from our Conscience.

 

Narayana Narayana

 

Rajendra J Bohra

 

------------------

 

> >

> > Hari Om

> >

> > Once we firmly accept anything at the " Swayam " (Self, I) level,

it

> > becomes part of our being and thereafter all karmas flow from

the

> > body automatically - without any effort by Self. In fact " self "

> can

> > only accept / reject / associate / disassociate- these are not

> > actions. " Self " cannot " act " . Therefore Swamiji insisted

on " firm

> > acceptance " from the core being " swayam " of the facts.

> >

> > Spiritual journey in fact is not at all " a long journey " . In

fact

> > the moment we " accept/resolve " - we become Dharmatma (holy

person)

> > as per Gita (9:30/31)- upon that moment of acceptance itself ! !.

> >

> > Therefore let us not consider the journey to be long. This world

> is

> > like Kalpa Vriksha (proverbial wish yielding tree)- here as you

> > think, so it manifests. If you think, it is a long journey -

then

> it

> > becomes long, indeed !

> >

> > All depends upon your " acceptance/resolve " . No change is

necessary

> > in outer conduct. As Mike said - " chop wood, carry water " .

Before

> > and after enlightenment - no change in actions/karmas. Keep

doing

> > same duties, same work , only the " self " inside has changed -

> > forever! With change in " Karta " by way of acceptance - same

> actions

> > become totally different in giving results and in effect.

> >

> > Be solid inside and you cross the ocean. If in a cave , there is

> > darkness existing say for 1000 years and in another for say half

> an

> > hour. In both the cases when enlightenment takes place ,

darkness

> > instantly goes. It is in not that in the former cave, it takes

> more

> > time for darkness to disappear. Hence we should always be

> optimistic

> > in spiritual journey.

> >

> > Pranaam to all fellow sadhaks and specially to Vijayji for

> > inquirying and givine us an opportunity for sharing this

> > understanding (Jnana Yagya) Site - Gita Talk Group.

> >

> > Jai Shree Krishna

> >

> > Vyas N B

> > -------------------------------

> >

> > Vijay

> >

> > Just reflect what our mother gave us and what she received. Did

> she

> > ever think what it will give her when she turned her blood into

> milk

> > and gave us ?

> >

> > The world goes on because of the sacrificing attitude of a few.

> The

> > india we have today stopped and is in chaos because everyone in

> > every walk of life including the selfless swamis are thinking

> > of " what i will get "

> >

> > Reflect how we got freedom. it is the work of a bunch of

ordinary

> > folks or rather below average ordinary folks who rose above

their

> > selfishness bringing freedom to a billion others. What more do

we

> > require as an example that selfless service will do good to all ?

> >

> > Siva Raman

> > --------------------------------

--

> > It is all a matter of understanding.

> > Understanding leads to transformation.

> > Awareness on " nothing is mine " , " I do not need anything " and

so

> > on......is for the mind so that it could get some relief

initially

> > and later totally.

> >

> > Unless the clutter ends, there is no going forward. Mind will

> keep

> > on generating thousands of such questions.....

> >

> > These questions start dissolving as you do " manan " on the

> above..and

> > experience the meaning.

> >

> > Wish you good Mauning....

> >

> > Sushil Jain

> > --------------------------------

--

> >

> >

> > > ------------------------------

--

> --

> > -

> > >

> > > First of all, thanks to everyone who took time to respond to my

> > > question and try to help. I'm really overwhelmed by the desire

> of

> > all

> > > the people in this group to help a fellow person.

> > >

> > > I agree and understand the points made by all, in this post.

> > > Spiritual journey is a long process. I think it so happens

that

> > sometimes the mind wanders and feelings change and one vents

out.

> > That is the time when one should show Restrain and Believe.

> > >

> > > My humble thanks again to all of you for your responses.

> > >

> > > Vijay Aggraval

> > > ------------------------------

--

> --

> > -

> > > Hari Om

> > >

> > > In the previous discussion we arrived at the conclusion that

> > > (i) Worldly things/ people are not ours

> > > (ii) They are not for us also

> > > (iii) They have been given to us and

> > > (iv) They will leave us.

> > >

> > > Question is now what we should do? Shall we throw father /

> > mother/money etc out of house saying - you are not ours/nor for

> us?

> > How to live practically in life keeping in mind the above

> > fundamentals ?

> > >

> > > Here is a very practical, simple, logical, scientific, right

and

> > Scriptures / Gita approved solution :-

> > >

> > > Imagine you are living in Rishikesh. Some close friend visits

> you

> > there on the way to Badrinath. He has excess cash with him,

which

> he

> > doesn't want to carry to Badrinath. He requests you to keep

excess

> > cash with you. He would come tomorrow and take back his money.

You

> > keep the money and let him go.

> > >

> > > Now consider your status vis a vis that money lying in your

> > cupboard !

> > >

> > > Is it yours? No !

> > >

> > > Is it for you? No!

> > >

> > > Has it not been given to you for the time being ? Yes !

> > >

> > > Will it not be taken away from you tomorrow when your friend

> > returns from Badrinath? Yes !

> > >

> > > Now what can you do? You can merely " serve " the money - By

> keeping

> > it safe! You may even cancel your late night programme of going

> out/

> > next day programme so that if your friend comes earlier you can

> > return the money. You can only become extra vigilant for safety

of

> > that money. What else can you do, except providing service ?

> > >

> > > That is all we have to do with the worldly things we have

got !

> > Can we consider that money to be ours? No. If we do that or

> utilise

> > that for self or think that now it is permanently ours because

it

> is

> > lying in our cupboard, become proud of it, start thinking that

the

> > friend may not come back - then what shall be our fate ? What

will

> > you get if you think/do so ? Sorrows, struggle, lack of

peace ...

> > What else? That is exactly what we get when we become dishonest

> with

> > the ownership of these worldly things.

> > >

> > > What an easy and practical solution! What is difficulty in not

> > considering that money that belongs to the friend as not yours /

> not

> > for you / received temporarily / to be returned?

> > >

> > > Vijayji, now share your thoughts on this! Can the world turn

> > upside down if you return the money back to your friend when he

> > comes back from Badrinath ?

> > >

> > > Serve the world with the things you have got without forming

any

> > sense of " mine-ness " with those things. In the end these things

> will

> > depart - either these things will not be there or you will not

be

> > there or both will not be there ! Guaranteed !

> > >

> > > Sadhaks now can list out practical difficulties in

implementing

> > the above in practical life.

> > >

> > > Jai Shree Krishna

> > >

> > > Vyas N B

> > > ------------------------------

--

> --

> > -

> > > Nothing Is Mine

> > >

> > > Doubt over this statement is arising because the reader is

> > contemplating on it by considering the notion that 'I am this

> body'.

> > To understand this statement one has to differentiate himself

from

> > the body. The word 'Nothing' here implies body, mind and

> intellect.

> > By assuming this false relationship with body we get bonded to

the

> > entire world because body is just a small sample of this world.

So

> > those who don't want this bondage anymore the above statement is

> for

> > them.

> > >

> > > To differentiate oneself from body the most important thing is

> to

> > give importance to the fact that we (Self) never changes and the

> > body never ceases to change. You say that I was kid. Then I was

a

> > young guy. Now I am an old man. The body has always changed. But

> has

> > it changed suddenly after a gap of every 25 years? No. So has it

> > changed after every 1 year? No. So has it changed after every 1

> > month? No. So has it changed after every week? (i.e. every week

it

> > will remain as it is and then it will change after the given

> period)

> > No. So has it changed after every 1 day? No. So has it changed

> after

> > 1 hour? No. So has it changed after every 1 minute? No. The

truth

> is

> > that it is changing every second. It takes time to read and

think

> > over it but it does not take any time for changing.

> > >

> > > Now a big question arises. Who knows this change? It certainly

> > cannot be body because it is the subject itself. So does mind

and

> > intellect know that change? No. Because like body they are also

a

> > subject which can be perceived, which can be known. We all know

> that

> > the thoughts which used to occupy our mind in adolescent stage

no

> > longer come to our mind today. Similarly our decisions have also

> > changed. Ignorant, intelligent, remembering, forgetting etc. are

> > different stages of intellect. But one who can perceive these

> > different stages of intellect is beyond it.

> > > Similarly we can also differentiate our Self from ego i.e. I.

> > > Try to observe these 4 things. When you say 'I am, You are,

This

> > is and That is' so all these 4 things can be seen under some

light

> > (knowledge). That light is our Swaroop(Self). In that there is

no

> > difference of I, you etc. So The Self is Gyan Swaroop.

> > >

> > > The Self is Immortal.

> > > As stated above, our existence is not because of this body.

Even

> > when the body was not present we were there and even if the body

> > will not be alive we will exist (Gita 2:11). We see the body

first

> > and then we look at our Self. This is the biggest mistake.

Because

> > the Self comes first and body comes later. Till now we have

taken

> > millions of births and all the bodies have left us. So what's

> going

> > to be so new about this body? Will it stay with you? Or will you

> > stay with it? Saints have said 'Sapana ho javasi Sut Kutumb Dhan

> > Dhaam' - Family, Money and House will merely be a dream. In fact

> you

> > even remember a dream but will you remember all those things

which

> > you are now claiming as I and mine? If there is some custom for

> > remembering it then do you remember that in last life to which

> body

> > you referred to as I, to which person, house etc. you addressed

> > him/her as mine? If not then are you going to remember those

> > things/persons that you are now claiming to be as I/mine? Then

why

> > get attached to them and claim them as mine?

> > >

> > > Swamiji has explained all the above topics beautifully in

Sadhak-

> > Sanjivani in Hindi. Please refer to pages -

> > > 57-59, 65 - (Gita 2:13) - Our existence is not because of this

> body

> > > 850 - (Gita 13:8) - Stages of ego getting destroyed in

spiritual

> > practice

> > > 851 - (Gita 13:8) 'I, you, this, that'

> > > 865, 866 - (Gita 13:8) The example of 'students sitting one

> behind

> > each other in an exam' is just amazing

> > >

> > > I have given page numbers as per Hindi version.

> > >

> > > Hare Krishna,

> > > Varun

> > > (Varun Paprunia)

> > > ------------------------------

--

> -

> > > Shree Hari

> > > Ram Ram

> > > From Moderator : For those with English version, you make

look

> up

> > the specific Shloka. For those who understand Hindi the entire

> > Sadhak Sanjivani is online at:

> > >

> > >

> >

>

http://www.swamiramsukhdasji.org/swamijibooks/pustak/pustak1/html/Sad

> > hakSanjeevni/main.html

> > >

> > > Ram Ram

> > > ------------------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > Vijayji,

> > > Here is something to ponder:

> > >

> > > Among the worlds mystical tradition it is known that to become

> one

> > > with The Divine, one has to:

> > > Die to ones (lower)self,(ego mind); Death of ego; Annihilation

> > > (Fana), different ways of expressing the same concept. One

> famous

> > lady was taught by by her Guru, an Indian Sufi Saint, " there is

> > nothing but nothingness " , when she found THAT nothingness, she

was

> > at one with her then dead Guru and her GOD.

> > >

> > > B.G. 15.11. The yogis striving (for perfection) behold him

> dwelling

> > > in the Self; but, the unrefined and unintelligent, even Though

> > striving, see him not.

> > >

> > > Sacred books and wise council at this site, can point one in

the

> > > right direction. I am not sure where flashy cars, a fine

> physique,

> > and worldly status can point you.

> > >

> > > To the question, '..then how will the world work?'.

> > > There is a Zen saying " Before enlightenment, chop wood, carry

> > water.

> > > After enlightenment, chop wood, carry water " .

> > >

> > > And surely the people who offer sustenance to holy people, do

it

> > > because they have reverence for them! An act of Divine Love.

> > >

> > > With Respect and Divine Love,

> > >

> > > Mike

> > > (Mike Keenor)

> > > ------------------------------

--

> --

> > >

> > >

> > > >

> > > > Narayan Narayan,

> > > >

> > > > May you attain salvation

> > > > You have not created this world, it's functioning is not your

> > > responsibility. This world is perishing every moment, in that

> you

> > > have no control. Why are you unnecessarily and uselessly

> troubled

> > > by these things? You have not understood the inner sentiments

of

> > > Swamiji's points. He who does not understand properly, he

> becomes

> > a

> > > master of half and incomplete knowledge. He who, in spite of

> > > knowing, if he does not give up (sacrifice) the unreal

> (perishing,

> > > temporary), that is one of the greatest losses.

> > > >

> > > > R. C Vyas

> > > > ----------------------------

--

> --

> > -

> > > >

> > > > Hari Om

> > > >

> > > > Re Nothing is Mine

> > > >

> > > > I fully agree with Pratapji Bhatt. Swamiji never asked

anyone

> to

> > > leave the house or relationships etc. Change is needed inside

by

> > way

> > > of acceptance of truth ! Change is needed at " assumption

level " -

> > > not in outer conduct/behaviour. We are sufferring because of

> wrong

> > > assumptions. We are confused because we have not accepted the

> truth

> > > inside our heart.

> > > >

> > > > What is the truth? Truth is that- NOTHING IS MINE !

> > > >

> > > > What is " mine " ? A thing/body can be stated to be " mine " if

we

> > have

> > > independent control over it; if it is born with us only and

> remains

> > > always with us, and when we are not there it departs with us

> only.

> > (

> > > If a thing is " mine " then what is it doing here in this world

> after

> > > I am dead? It is " mine " - how then it can be of others?) Then

> only

> > > it can be ours - or there is any other way of something being

> ours?

> > > ( Vijayji please deliberate here- Come On! ) A thing which

> meets

> > us

> > > and later departs - how can that thing be ours? How can any

sane

> > > mind call that thing to be ours, which from the very moment of

> > > connection with you is disconnecting from you? (Vijayji- can

you

> > > give any examples of any thing which has different

> characteristics?

> > > Please enlighten!)

> > > >

> > > > If body is " yours " , then don't allow it to fall sick. Let it

> > > never grow old! At least don't allow it to die ! ! Can you

ensure

> > > that ? ( Vijayji -can you ensure that ?) If you cannot, then

how

> > > can you assume it is yours ? Is body coming nearer to you every

> > > passing second or going away from you every moment ? How it is

> > yours

> > > if it is going away from you every second ?

> > > >

> > > > What is dishonesty? You are called " dishonest " , if you claim

> > > something to be yours while in fact it is not yours. Is there

any

> > > other way in which dishonesty can be defined? If we call this

> body,

> > > these worldly things, etc to be ours then - are we honest or

> > > dishonest ? ? Deliberate Vijayji here on these points! Come

> on ! !

> > > Consider these written words as blog only !

> > > >

> > > > What is reality? The fact is that this body, mind,

intellect,

> > ego,

> > > these worldly things, situations, status, wealth, health,

> > affluence,

> > > relatives - all - everything which changes- everything except

> > > Paramatma / Self/ Conscience :-

> > > >

> > > > 1 They are not yours !

> > > >

> > > > 2 They are not for you also!

> > > >

> > > > 3 They have been given to you for a predetermined time !

> > > >

> > > > 4.They shall be taken back from you !

> > > >

> > > > Now ponder upon the above discussion. Ask as many questions

as

> > you

> > > can. Argue till you don't get convinced or till you don't

> convince

> > > me - on the aforesaid facts. Then we shall resume tomorrow,

> further

> > > in the matter.

> > > >

> > > > Jai Shree Krishna

> > > >

> > > > Vyas N B

> > > > ----------------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > > There is need to understand that there are two identities in

> the

> > > question below. Unfortunately, we refuse to distinguish between

> > > these two identities. These are the 'mind' and the 'body'.

Having

> > > understood this basic issue, it is easy to find an answer.

> > > >

> > > > " Nothing is mine, I need nothing, I have no relationship "

are

> all

> > > a function of the mind. When Gitaji says these words, it is to

> > > highlight that there should be no attachment with the world.

> > > >

> > > > Doing things in the world are a function of body. When

Gitaji

> > says

> > > these words, it is to highlight that 'Kartavya Karma' should

> > > continue to be performed.

> > > >

> > > > I hope this will help Vijayji find an answer.

> > > >

> > > > A.H.Dalmia

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > ----------------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > >

> > > > Ram Ram,

> > > > Vijayji has asked good question. However, one thing needs

to

> be

> > > > understood that this world is created by Krishna and is run

by

> > > divine

> > > > mother with the wishes of the supreme God (Shri Krishna) as

it

> is

> > > his

> > > > leela. Therefore, Shri Krishna very well knows that if all

> > people

> > > > follow his principles, there would not be any universe. As

> long

> > as

> > > > the world exists there will be beings which would not follow

> > these

> > > > principles. But what we need to focus upon is to follow his

> > > > principles in the Gita instead of worrying about what

happens

> if

> > > all

> > > > follows. That is Shri Krishna's problem not our problem.

> > > >

> > > > Ram Ram

> > > > Sudhir Kalra

> > > >

> > > > ----------------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > > I agree with the question, understand it too but the problem

> lies

> > > in

> > > > implementing it fully. Yes fully, at times I do so and when

I

> do

> > > so,

> > > > I feel happy, away from the tensions and sorrows of the

world.

> > But

> > > > don't know how I miss the track and again I fall in the well

of

> > > > ignorance. This cycle goes on and on. I have used the

> > > > word 'implement', actually it's wrong, every thing happens on

> > > > itself. But since the situation is not permanent though I

don't

> > > have

> > > > any doubts, I have used this word.

> > > >

> > > > Goenka

> > > > ----------------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > > On a personal note, when I started to read Bhagwat Gita, the

> > > > question in mind was whether I become Sanyasi and abondon

many

> of

> > > > actvities but it was in fact an explanation of WORK and

> > worshipping

> > > > Sri Krishna only by WORK. By not possessiveness, WORK

becomes

> > more

> > > > objective and transparent and income level rises. The money

or

> > > > increased ability is not interference but a resource like

> water

> > or

> > > > earth which is in hand of NISHKAAM KARMI.

> > > >

> > > > In the Bhagwat Gita, I learnt 'updrishta anumanta ch... '

and

> > this

> > > > is enough of my conviction and most practical. Slowly, I got

> > > > understanding of more words and ideas. So, the question of

> > > > livelihood, and success and excellence are not opposed to

> > > > renunciation or Sannyaas.

> > > > Regards

> > > > K G

> > > > (Krishna Gopal)

> > > > ----------------------------

--

> -

> > > >

> > > > In response to Vijayi's question, my humble attempts to

offer

> a

> > few

> > > > thoughts,

> > > >

> > > > So often in life, we are not able to hold onto various

> > > > assets. Money isn't there for a car payment, the car is

> > > repossessed. No moeny for apartment rent, one has to go and

stay

> > > with a

> > > > relative, something is stolen, as a wallet etc. One who truly

> > > knows, is not disturbed. He is equipoised, as the

understanding

> > > that " these things are not mine " has become realized

knowledge.

> > The

> > > awareness that, try as we may, we are not the ultimate

> controller

> > of

> > > all that happens, is a very high level of understanding. We

> should

> > > also know, that if in our heart the desire has awakened to be

> > > detached from worldly things, and develop that intimate, loving

> > > relationship with God, then the Lord in the heart will hear

that

> > > desire.

> > > >

> > > > Being a renunciate doesn't necessarily entail living the

> > > > life of a wandering mendicant with no possessions....it

means

> to

> > > understand that nothing is this world is truly ours. " Ours " is

> only

> > > the desire to serve the Lord, or serve our own whims. Whatever

> has

> > > been put into our care, use it as much as possible to glorify

and

> > > serve the Lord, whether it is our children, wealth, our home,

> our

> > > intelligence....whatever we have should be used to serve

> > > > Sri Krsna (or however we call the Lord)

> > > >

> > > > The sadhak lives on two levels, one is the internal

> > understanding,

> > > that nothing is mine, save and except the desire to serve the

> > > > Lord, and then the external awareness, according to one's

place

> > > and status in life. The internal awareness, if truly on the

> > > > level of realization (jnana) will constantly manifest in

> external

> > > > dealings, for instance, if one is externally somewhat well-

off,

> > > with a little money in the pocket, and a beggar comes, needing

> some

> > > food, one who is fully aware of his own " non-ownership " will be

> > > quite willing to give in charity, if able, whereas one who

> > > thinks, " this is mine, I worked hard for it " will not so

> willingly

> > > give.

> > > >

> > > > my dear Vijayji, truly, without putting our relationship

> > > > with the Lord first, our lives are wasted. Those who have

> > > dedicated their lives to helping give this knowledge, of simple

> > > living, high thinking, of making the Lord the center of our

> worship

> > > rather than our own bodies and minds, they are providing the

> > > greatest service to humanity. Can we have even the basic

needs

> of

> > > a human being, such as food grains and water, without the

mercy

> of

> > > the Lord? No.

> > > > Whatever we have is His mercy and kindness, and we should

> > > constantly

> > > > be striving to re-awaken our relationship with Him. That is

> > > gratitude, not that we take food, clothing, sunlight,

etc....and

> > > ignore that Person who is giving us these things.

> > > >

> > > > Hoping my words have not offended anyone,

> > > > Mahalaksmi Dasi

> > > >

> > > > ----------------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > -

> > > > , " sadhak_insight "

> > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > Shree Hari

> > > > > Ram Ram

> > > > >

> > > > > FROM MODERATOR:

> > > > >

> > > > > Dear Divine Sadhaks,

> > > > >

> > > > > Vijayji has posed a wonderful question that will benefit

> many

> > of

> > > > us !

> > > > >

> > > > > Question: If everybody follows " Nothing Is Mine " and " I

Do

> not

> > > > need

> > > > > anything " and specially " I do not have any relationship

with

> > > > anybody "

> > > > > then how will the world work? The saints are able to do

> > sainthood

> > > > > because there are people who pay for them. Do you have a

> blog

> > or

> > > > > area where people can discuss these thoughts? Vijay

Aggraval

> > > > >

> > > > > I appeal / encourage you all to not be passive by-

standers,

> but

> > > to

> > > > > step up to the challenge of the question being asked. Let

> us

> > all

> > > > > take this divine opportunity, to carefully and attentively

> > review

> > > > the

> > > > > message from Swamiji, the question and the responses so

far.

> If

> > > > there

> > > > > is any doubts, to bring it forward to the group.

> > > > >

> > > > > I encourage Vijayji, Simiji and all others that have

> expressed

> > > > > concern on similar or related topics in the past; to name

a

> > > few -

> > > > > Madan Gupta, Anilji Bhanot, Vavamenonji, and any others to

> > > > > deliberate / respond with your very brief answers.

Vijayji,

> > since

> > > > we

> > > > > do not have a blog at this time, you may react from time

to

> > time

> > > > more

> > > > > actively, by asking counter questions, feeling free to

> > > participate

> > > > in

> > > > > full, to gain clarification of any doubts that you may

have

> > > > related

> > > > > to the topic being discussed.

> > > > >

> > > > > We shall allow maximum time span for this question until

> doubts

> > > of

> > > > > sadhaks are clarified. In fact, there will be no new

> questions

> > > > > posted till this question has reached to a logical

> > conclusion. I

> > > > > therefore expect that all sadhaks will be fully engaged in

> this

> > > > > discussion. Such questions / answers can be transforming.

> > > > >

> > > > > Thank you all for this Jnana ganga !

> > > > >

> > > > > From Gita Talk Moderator

> > > > > Ram Ram

> > > > >

> > > > > --------------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > --

> > > > -

> > > > >

> > > > > Hari Om

> > > > >

> > > > > The apprehension as to whether the world will work or not

> > denotes

> > > > a

> > > > > presumption that the entire world is " driven by desires "

> only.

> > > > There

> > > > > can not be any desireless actions at all and if the

> desireless

> > > > > actions are resorted to by anybody, the world comes to a

> > > grinding

> > > > > halt - at least for that body ! Too over confident an

> > > observation

> > > > > indeed !

> > > > >

> > > > > The observation reg the Saints is too bad - unbelievably

> bad.

> > Who

> > > > can

> > > > > pay for Saints? No body can ever pay for them or repay

them

> for

> > > > what

> > > > > they give to humanity at large. Judgement cannot be passed

if

> > > > there

> > > > > is a question/doubt.

> > > > >

> > > > > Even without face to face interaction, the subject can be

> > > > discussed

> > > > > and grasped - if we utilise our power " to accept/believe "

> > and " to

> > > > > know " correctly. You know that you have these powers. Hence

> > > kindly

> > > > > now position yourself with an open, receptive,

comprehending,

> > > > > willing, ready to understand, logical, rationale,

scientific,

> > > > > patient, serious and impartial (equanimous) mind set and

> follow

> > > > what

> > > > > all sadhaks respond pursuant to your question. I will too

> > > > contribute

> > > > > from time to time.

> > > > >

> > > > > You of course will have ample opportunities of expressing

> your

> > > > views,

> > > > > of counter arguing , etc. You may even respond against

each

> and

> > > > every

> > > > > observation given by various Sadhaks of this Gita Talk

> Group.

> > We

> > > > > shall definitely make an effort to convince you - by sheer

> > power

> > > > of

> > > > > the truth !

> > > > >

> > > > > If you are ready and have power of belief in you, then

first

> > > > believe

> > > > > that in such deliberations ultimately the truth prevails.

You

> > > will

> > > > > have to be patient, though. Believe me, your question

> otherwise

> > > is

> > > > > excellent and will help many. The answers will be eye

> openers.

> > > > >

> > > > > Jai Shree Krishna

> > > > >

> > > > > Vyas N B

> > > > >

> > > > > --------------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > -

> > > > > Dear Sadhus, Master!

> > > > >

> > > > > If one takes the literal meaning of " nothing is mine "

or " I

> > > don't

> > > > > have any relationship with anybody " , it will sound

confusing.

> > > > > However, these statements asks us to develop and live

with

> > such

> > > > > inner attitude when dealing with world. Obviously we all

are

> > > > > interdependent on one another, rather, this entire

universe

> > works

> > > > as

> > > > > though it is one system. We all need the basic minimum,

like

> > > food,

> > > > > shelter, clothing, and may be few others for survival. As

> can

> > be

> > > > > seen, these require us to function harmoniously in society.

> > > > >

> > > > > What happens is that we get attached to " me " and mineness

> > becomes

> > > > so

> > > > > real, so important to us that we forget our

> interdependencies,

> > > > > duties, righteousness etc and end up developing greed,

envy,

> > > > jealousy

> > > > > and other negative emotions. This leads us to suffering.

> > > > > Swamiji's message below is very clear: In order to free

> > ourselves

> > > > > from suffering, we need to be detached from the things of

the

> > > > world.

> > > > > As made by God, we are complete in ourselves inwardly, we

> just

> > > > need

> > > > > to realize it by our inner attitude suggested here.

> > > > >

> > > > > To do so would require me to live and deal with world with

an

> > > > inner

> > > > > attitude as if nothing is mine. When established firmly in

> this

> > > > > attitude, I will realize the truth of other statements of

> > > > Swamiji: " I

> > > > > have no relationship with anyone " , " I don't need

> > anything " , " Only

> > > > God

> > > > > is mine "

> > > > >

> > > > > One doesn't need to avoid or escape from the world or

things

> of

> > > > the

> > > > > world which will clearly indicate aversions same as

> attachments

> > > > and

> > > > > continuation of suffering. However, one sees God in all

(God

> is

> > > > mine

> > > > > in this sense), is filled with only love, compassion and

> serves

> > > > all.

> > > > > After all when God takes care of such a one as promised in

> Gita

> > > > 9:22,

> > > > > (.....Yoga kshemam vahamyaham), He does it through people

and

> > > > nature.

> > > > > Such a one, while not selfishly related to anyone, is

truly

> > > > related

> > > > > to all as if they are one.

> > > > >

> > > > > In summary, Swamiji asks us that while outwardly being

> > > > > interdependent, be unattached and not depend on anyone or

> > > anything

> > > > > inwardly for our own comforts, and happiness. This is

> because

> > in

> > > > > doing so, we will be inevitably unhappy due to changing

> nature

> > of

> > > > > world. In this way when we are detached, we will be

> objective

> > and

> > > > > have a right perspective for things of the world.

> > > > > Namaskar....

> > > > >

> > > > > Pratap

> > > > > (Pratap Bhatt)

> > > > > --------------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > -

> > > > >

> > > > > Dear Vijayji

> > > > >

> > > > > Bhagwat Gita in chapter 16 says that people have either a

> > > tendency

> > > > of

> > > > > liberation or bondage. These natural defense traits are

> called

> > > > DAIVY

> > > > > and AASURI sampada. DAIVY sampada is about PARITTYAG. This

> > means,

> > > > not

> > > > > leaving or abondoning anything but retaining the freewill

so

> > that

> > > > > things do not become addiction and one is aware of self

> nature

> > of

> > > > > free-will. This retaining of free will is called

PARITTAAG.

> For

> > > > > example, a man becomes vegeterian or non-smoker or sugar

> free

> > or

> > > > non-

> > > > > competitive not because non-vegeterian food, smoking or

> sugar

> > or

> > > > > competitive mentality are bad or good; but the particular

> man

> > has

> > > > now

> > > > > discovered his own nature and these consumptions are slowly

> > > > becoming

> > > > > irrelevant.

> > > > >

> > > > > Consumption is two types. One, personal and two,

impersonal.

> > When

> > > > one

> > > > > is hungry and eats something alone, this is personal. But

if

> > one

> > > > does

> > > > > not eat and offers food to his hungry wife or hungry

> children

> > or

> > > > > employees to save their lives first, this consumption is

> > indirect

> > > > or

> > > > > impersonal. Sri Krishna says that He at one stage is BHOKTA

> > > > > (consumer) but not directly. And when people eat food, or

> have

> > > > peace

> > > > > and love, this consumption is like happiness of great grand

> > > father

> > > > in

> > > > > joint family who consumes all happiness by watching a

large

> > happy

> > > > > family, united. This state of mind of impersonal consumer

is

> > Sri

> > > > > Krishna. So Sri Krishna is a consumer (BHOKTA) but not

> > directly.

> > > > In

> > > > > another sloka in Bhagwat Gita, Sri Krishna says His devout

to

> > > > serve

> > > > > all living being (SARVA BHOOT RATE HITAH) because it

tastes

> > much

> > > > > better if consumption is indirect.

> > > > >

> > > > > Sri Krishna is called GOVIND and GOPTA just for same

> reasoning.

> > > He

> > > > is

> > > > > secret commission agent for whatever exchanges takes place

in

> > > > living

> > > > > being. By consuming a sample of exchanges, He gets to

know

> > > level

> > > > of

> > > > > impersonal consumption. Therefore, Krishna bhakt have no

ill

> > > > feeling

> > > > > towards one another because a part of this feeling like

> poison

> > > > goes

> > > > > to Sri Krishna who is a GOPTA or GOVIND or commission

agent

> or

> > > > > intermediary of exchanges.

> > > > >

> > > > > Regards

> > > > > Krishna Gopal

> > > > >

> > > > > --------------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > -

> > > > > Somehow I agree with you Mr Vijay!

> > > > >

> > > > > Simi S.

> > > > > --------------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > -

> > > > >

> > > > > Jai Shri Krishna,

> > > > >

> > > > > Sadhak Vijayji appears to be confused and somewhat scared

of

> > > > > accepting simple and logical steps suggested by Swamiji for

> > > > > fulfillment of the very objective for which the human life

> has

> > > > been

> > > > > given. I will surely contribute in the deliberations but

> before

> > > > that

> > > > > I am reminded of a short story which I want to share with

> > > Sadhaks.

> > > > >

> > > > > There was a married couple residing together for 6-7 years.

> > > > >

> > > > > One evening wife said to the husband - Look I am fed up

now

> > > with

> > > > > you. I am not happy with the care which you are taking of

me.

> > > Last

> > > > > month you promised a Jhumka (jewellery) for me, but you

never

> > > > bought

> > > > > it for me. I am not enjoying your company anymore. I have

> > > selected

> > > > a

> > > > > new companion for me who will take me away with him

tomorrow

> > > > morning

> > > > > at 8 AM. Till tomorrow morning I am yours and thereafter,

> Good

> > > > Bye!

> > > > > We have met in this life, please do not meet me again here

> or

> > in

> > > > the

> > > > > heavens.

> > > > >

> > > > > Husband was stunned. He pleaded, said he would get two

> Jhumkas

> > > > > instead of one and a good dress as well. He said - Please

> don't

> > > > leave

> > > > > me. How the neighbors, the society will look toward me and

> see

> > > me?

> > > > > Please! I am sorry.

> > > > >

> > > > > But wife was adamant. He tried his level best to convince

> her

> > but

> > > > > could not succeed. It was 11 pm in the winter night. They

> were

> > > > living

> > > > > in a small village with 100/150 houses. Suddenly husband

> went

> > on

> > > > the

> > > > > roof top of the house and started calling - Villagers...

> > > Villagers

> > > > > Pls come and gather around now. 15/20 people came and

asked

> him

> > > as

> > > > to

> > > > > the matter.

> > > > >

> > > > > Husband said- I have decided to divorce my wife. Villagers

> pls

> > > > note.

> > > > >

> > > > > Now wife kept on uttering - I left, I left I left him

first -

>

> > but

> > > > no

> > > > > one heard her.

> > > > >

> > > > > The villagers asked- any other thing. Husband said - No

> Thank

> > > > you, I

> > > > > just wanted to keep you all posted. You may go now.

> > > > >

> > > > > When he returned to the bed room from the roof top, wife

> told -

> > > > you

> > > > > are a very bad person, a liar - I left you and you told

> > villagers

> > > > > that you left me ! Explain !

> > > > >

> > > > > Husband said - Look I tried to convince you a lot, but you

> did

> > > not

> > > > > agree. Then why I should lower my moustache ! ! ! Before

you

> > > leave

> > > > > me, I have left you !

> > > > >

> > > > > So Vijayji - why we should lower our moustache ? Before

this

> > > > world,

> > > > > these relatives, this body, this money, this wealth, this

> > health,

> > > > > this affluence, this status, this power, these rights, this

> > > > beauty,

> > > > > this youth, these abilities, this position, these

> > circumstances,

> > > > > these situations, these thoughts, etc leave us, why we

> should

> > not

> > > > > leave them? Are they not leaving us? Has not your

childhood

> > left

> > > > you?

> > > > > Is not your body continuously leaving you? If you have to

be

> > with

> > > > a

> > > > > particular relative for 30 years and you have lived with

> him /

> > > her

> > > > > already for 1 year, has not he/she gone away already by

that

> > one

> > > > > year? Is not that relationship drifting every second away

> from

> > > you?

> > > > >

> > > > > What are you waiting for ? Who has asked you to leave

them ?

> > But

> > > > > can't you even accept the simple fact that they are not

> yours?

> > > Are

> > > > > they not leaving you continuously ? Any doubt on that ?

What

> is

> > > > wrong

> > > > > in accepting a fact of life ? Can you deny this fact?

> > > > >

> > > > > So think Vijayji. Why you should lower your moustache ?

She

> is

> > > > going

> > > > > to leave you most certainly. Definitely. Why don't you

leave

> > her?

> > > > >

> > > > > Narayana Narayana

> > > > >

> > > > > Rajendra J Bohra

> > > > > --------------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Hari Om

> > > > > Re NOTHING IS MINE

> > > > >

> > > > > At the outset I must state that there is no need for you,

> > > > Vijayji,

> > > > > to worry excessively for the world. You have expressed

> rather

> > too

> > > > > much of a worry for the world. Believe me, the world is

not

> > going

> > > > to

> > > > > turn upside down, or come to a grinding halt, if you

accept

> any

> > > or

> > > > > all of the suggestions contained in the Article referred by

> > > > you ! ! !

> > > > > On the contrary it shall become far far better for you !

It

> is

> > > too

> > > > > big a world to worry. An individual like you or me is too

too

> > > > small

> > > > > to worry for it.There are systems and procedures, laws ,

> which

> > > > govern

> > > > > the workings of the world and the activities of each and

> every

> > > > > creature of this world. When our kindselves were not

there

> in

> > > > this

> > > > > world say 100 years before, then also this world was

working

> > and

> > > > when

> > > > > we shall be consigned to the flames say after maximum 100

> > years ,

> > > > > then also the world will remain. We therefore should worry

> > about

> > > > our

> > > > > salvation, our interests, our goal rather than taking the

> > onerous

> > > > > responsibility of wondering as to how the world will work

if

> we

> > > > > follow " Nothing is Mine " etc. or what shall be the fate if

> > > > everybody

> > > > > starts doing desireless actions or start saying- Nothing

is

> > Mine.

> > > > > Your job is to find out first whether the statement is

> correct

> > or

> > > > > not ! Let the world go how it is going so far.

Reasonable ?.

> > > > >

> > > > > Saints have said:-

> > > > >

> > > > > Tere Baave Jo kare Bhalo Buro Sansaar, Narain tu Baith ke

> Apna

> > > > Bhuvan

> > > > > Buhaar

> > > > > (You damn care what the world is doing – Good or Bad. You

> > should

> > > > > concentrate on cleaning your own house)

> > > > >

> > > > > Hence you should concentrate on what is your

responsibility,

> > your

> > > > > duty, your role, your liability, your goal, your

betterment,

> > your

> > > > > improvement, your interest, your benefit, your

development !

> I

> > > let

> > > > > you think that way. You may ask me why I have stated so,

when

> > > > nothing

> > > > > is " yours " . I know you will not ask it. You have

understood.

> > > > >

> > > > > Anything illogical so far? Any thing which is confusing ?

> > > Anything

> > > > > which is unclear?

> > > > >

> > > > > Feel free to first deliberate upon the aforesaid. Then we

> shall

> > > > move

> > > > > to the first acceptance – NOTHING IS MINE . Kindly be

free,

> > > open,

> > > > > and active in deliberations. Be assured that in such

> > > deliberations

> > > > in

> > > > > the end only the TRUTH PREVAILS ! Have that belief in you !

> > > > >

> > > > > Jai Shree Krishna

> > > > >

> > > > > Vyas N B

> > > > >

> > > > > --------------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > --

> > > > -

> > > > >

> > > > > , " sadhak_insight "

> > > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > It is so confusing.

> > > > > > If everybody follows " Nothing Is Mine " and " I Do not need

> > > > anything "

> > > > > > and specially " I do not have any relationship with

anybody "

> > > then

> > > > > how

> > > > > > will the world work?

> > > > > > The saints are able to do sainthood because there are

> people

> > > who

> > > > > pay

> > > > > > for them.

> > > > > > Do you have a blog or area where people can discuss these

> > > > thoughts?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Thanks

> > > > > > Vijay Aggraval

> > > > > > -------------------

> > > > > >

> > > > > > On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 10:39 AM, sadhak_insight

> > > > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > 2nd July, 2008, Wednesday

> > > > > > Aashaad Krishna Chaturdashi, Vikram Samvat 2065, Budhvar

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Every human being is completely independent, powerful,

> > capable

> > > > and

> > > > > > eligible in his salvation (kalyaan). The reason is that

> when

> > > God

> > > > > > gives human body to jeeva (embodied soul), he also gives

> to

> > him

> > > > the

> > > > > > independence, power, capability and eligibility for his

> > > > salvation

> > > > > > (kalyaan).

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Now the question arises, what one should do for the

same?

> The

> > > > > answer

> > > > > > is that if a person firmly accepts the following four

> things

> > > > then

> > > > > > his kalyaan is certain :-

> > > > > >

> > > > > > 1. Nothing is Mine.

> > > > > > 2. I do not need anything.

> > > > > > 3. I do not have any relationship with anybody.

> > > > > > 4. Only God is my own.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The fundamental fault is to assume " mineness " with the

> > > temporary

> > > > > > worldly things. From this fault alone all other faults

> arise.

> > > In

> > > > > > fact in this entire universe not even a thing like hair

is

> > > ours.

> > > > > > Thereforth as soon as we accept " nothing is mine " -

there

> > comes

> > > > > > faultlessness in us and we instantly become " dharmatma "

(a

> > pure

> > > > > holy

> > > > > > soul).

> > > > > >

> > > > > > When nothing is ours, then what is there to desire?

Hence

> as

> > > > soon

> > > > > we

> > > > > > accept- " I do not need anything " , we become " nishkaam "

> > > > (desireless)

> > > > > > and henceforth a " Yogi " as you acquire Equanimity. -

> > " samatvam

> > > > yog

> > > > > > uchyate " (Gita 2: 48)

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The essential self (svaroop) of every human being

> is " asang "

> > > > > > (naturally detached). Therefore as soon as we decline to

> > accept

> > > > any

> > > > > > relationship with any body or any thing that comes

> together

> > and

> > > > > > later departs, we realise our self proven, obvious

> > > > disassociation

> > > > > or

> > > > > > detachment. And as soon as we realise our obvious

> detachment,

> > > we

> > > > > > become " jnani " (knowledgeable).

> > > > > >

> > > > > > We are essentially a part of God - Gita 15:7. Hence only

> God

> > is

> > > > > > ours. Nobody else is ours. As soon as we accept our mine-

> ness

> > > > with

> > > > > > God, we become " Bhakta " (devotee of God).

> > > > > >

> > > > > > A human being's kalyaan (salvation) is only vested in

his

> > being

> > > > > > Dharmatma Yogi (pure holy soul, with equanimity and free

> of

> > all

> > > > > > desires), in being Detached and in being a Devotee of

God.

> > > > > > Therefore it is a spiritual aspirant's duty that he

accept

> > > these

> > > > > > four worthy facts with a firm conviction. Then his

> salvation

> > is

> > > > > > definite.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > From " Maanav Matra ke kalyaan ke liye " in Hindi pg

69/70,

> by

> > > > Swami

> > > > > > Ramsukhdasji

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Ram Ram

> > > > > > ------------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > --

> > > > > > GUIDELINES FOR POSTING A RESPONSE:

> > > > > >

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[Guest guest]

--

Nothing is mine - I do not need any thing - I do not have

relationship with anybody

 

One should try to lead a life in this world happily with the above

in mind always. Then only one can enjoy real bliss of life useful

for both iham and param.All our spiritual texts directs us in this

thought process and way of life fulfilment.

Adi Sankarachary in his Vivekachudamani enlightens us '

Drusyamsarvamanaatma' -- mine, needs and relationships are

illusions. That is why Gita directed us ' Sarvadharmaan parityajya '

leave all ' mine, needs and relationships' .In Ramayana Sri Rama

categorically cleared about the relationships. 'Yadha kaastamch

kaastamcha sameyatya maharnave' - this is the eternal truth of our

relationships with mine, needs and contacts with

wife/husband,children and properties. Gita confirmed 'Avyktaadeen

bhutani vyaktamadhyani' , the true nature of our relations with

people. This is the final fate of our relationships.

 

Bhagavad Gita cautioned us very clearly and directly '

Asaktiranbhshvangaha putrdaar gruhadishu' - how our relationships

should be. And also directly asked " Prajahaati yada kaamaan

sarvaanpardhmanogataann' - how we should treat and think about

needs, relationships to be Human of stitapragnya.

 

Now think about - What is mine? Do you need anything ? Do you want

to have relationship with anybody?

 

G.Anjaneya Sharma

 

--------------------------------

Hari Om

 

Sadhak Rajendra Bohra's latest posting is insightful. Stupidity

indeed is not having knowledge himself and not heeding others. It

indeed generates from mind only. It is definition given by Swamiji

and hence it is final on the subject.

 

Here I share one of my personal experiences with fellow Sadhaks.

 

When in one of the discourses Swamiji Shri Ramsukhdasji Maharaj

defined stupidity when asked the following question - Sir, such

special souls are existing here, there and everywhere. Now how to

deal with them? They don't know and they don't listen also. We can

not run away from them also. Now what to do?

 

The Great Saint smiled and answered by quoting an idiom in Marwari

Language:-

 

" Moorakh ne samjhavano doro, kootano soro "

(You can not make a stupid person understand - it is very

difficult. It is easier to beat him consistently)

 

Then he went on to explain why Mother Nature washes our eyes with

tears till they are clean enough to behold the reality. Why inspite

of Paramatma being all knowing, all powerful, and the kindest sends

unfavourable circumstances and pains to His own children. ..... To

cure their stupidity !!!. That remains then the only way in the

hands of Him to make a stupid person understand.

 

He however also told that we should once tell such souls, as a

matter of duty if we must, as to what is correct. We should not

however be bad with them following the above idiom nor we should

insist too much on imparting wisdom to them.. We should leave them

to Paramatma's hands thereafter.

 

Moral is that when we encounter such souls in practical life, we

should not waste time in making them understand. We should ignore

them, pray for them and leave them in the hands of Mother Nature. We

need not get bad with them ! We should continue doing our duties, if

any, vis a vis them. Nothing more is possible to be done.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

 

--------------------------------

'Kalpa Vraksha

What a wonderful word

That by itself provides you some thing which can not be explained

Hopefully introductons from such words or dictionary of such

classics. May be

passed on by scholars will further illustrate lord krishnas sermons

Thanks

Dinesh Patel

-

 

DEAR sadaks,

What is yours gets lost, what you need you dont get, very good

relative discards you, this is experience on this earth due to Karmas

Saints ladies like Sri Andal, Sri Manjula, Jevanthi, Meera etc

surrendered to GOD. But had sufferings due to Prarabdha Karmas of

previous births. In their sufferings they knew it was from their

account, but were very happy that they have atleast come to an end.

Desire comes on its own based on Karmas. Saint Viswamitra desire for

Menaka came from the seed planted while he was king, though he was

now a saint.

 

During maha pralaya when all living die, but the desires, karmas

etc remain along with Auras. They manifest after sometime.

Brahmaji time is fixed that is 4 yugas. After that Maha Pralaya.

Souls in Brahma Lok attains Vaikunt prapthi along with Bramaji. Next

creation the Bramaji will be Hanumayun. All this is there in

scripts. Not my version.

 

B.Sathyanarayan

 

 

-

, " sadhak_insight "

<sadhak_insight wrote:

>

> Follow-up Question: My respects to all in this forum....I have a

> few questions which I am requesting Mr. Vyas to clarify.

>

> I am in disagreement, perhaps due to my lack of understanding, why

> it is said (below) that to rejects, associate or disassociate are

> not actions;...even on a mundane level, these are considered verbs,

> which are action words.....what to speak of the fact that I, the

> soul, has to choose to accept a course of action before it is

> undertaken...I have always held the opposite opinion, that action

> begins first from the subtle level....Lord Brahma did not manifest

> the universe by taking the elements in his hands and combining them

> one by one, did he? Rather, it would appear that it was a subtle

> process, brought on by the yogic abilities to move matter through a

> thought process....which stems from desire. To desire is not an

> intangible " thing " ....rather, it is an action of the soul. We must

> carefully analyze what it is we desire, otherwise, we will manifest

> through our actions conduct which will bring about pain and

> suffering.

>

> In another paragraph, it is writtten, " This world is

> like Kalpa Vriksha (proverbial wish yielding tree)- here as you

> think, so it manifests. If you think, it is a long journey - then

it

> becomes long, indeed ! " So, the idea here is in accord to what I

> am thinking, I am merely not understanding your choice of wording

in

> the opening paragraph. Thank you for the clarification.

>

> Mahalaksmi Dasi

> --------------------------------

>

> Hari Om

>

> The thoughts are outputs of mind, which is part of nature/body.

> In " self " there are no thoughts - because " self " is beyond nature.

> What thoughts do you have when you are in deep sleep? Self comes

> into our mind's peripheral as a reflection only. There are two

> things.

>

> 1) The output or function of mind.

> 2) That which enters the mind involuntarily - as reflection

> say " experience " or " realisation " .

>

> " Conscience " in fact enters the mind and reflects/shines there so

> does " equanimity " and many other things including " acceptance. "

> Remembrance (smriti) also enters the mind. They reflect/shine

> through the mind.

>

> Thoughts are functions of mind, getting activated because of

> commands of ego and intellect and because of desires. It is a

> subject in itself.

>

> Mahalaxmiji, for your benefit, some examples of action and non-

> action are being provided. We can not know our mind by

> mixing /identifying " Self " with it. We can know the mind/body (and

> for that matter the entire world) only by being separate from it.

>

> There is no thought/action/mind involved in Love (Prem). (Real

Love

> is blind and mindless / thoughtless - it is direct experience of

all

> of us). When we check with our Conscience - is mind/thought/body

> involved in Love ( PREM)? Similarly there is no thought or mind or

> action or body involved in Surrender/ Nishkaam Bhaav

(desirlessness

> as inner expression) / Shraddha (belief) / Vishwas (faith/trust)/

> Devotion/Equanimity/ Remembering / Realising/ Experiencing / Love

(

> Prem)/ Tyaag (rejection/renunciation)/Association /

Disassociation /

> Adoption ! Only SELF is involved in each of these ! (Now -

> what " verbs " or " Nouns " or " words " are going to do here - as

> mentioned by you ?? )

>

> Therefore by using these means only " Self " can realise Paramatma ,

> because there is no shelter or use of mind, prakriti (nature),

body

> in these! There is no " action " of mind, speech or other organs of

> body in these !! These are beyond Nature/Mind/Body and hence they

> are means of Paramatma/ Self Realisation

>

> Think and tell me, what " action " according to you is involved when

a

> son /daughter " accepts " someone as his/her father? What is the

role

> of thoughts or mind or body in that acceptance? Think over this

> deeply - you will find the answer.

>

> In fact, there is no role of mind/thoughts/ body there! Self only

> gets involved there. Self " associates " itself with Prakriti (

> Nature/ body / mind), gets " attracted " to the world (Gita 15:7,

> 13:21), Self " adopts " (Gita 7:5) the world and body and pays the

> penalty thereof by way of " experiencing " pleasures and pains (Gita

> 13:20)! All actions are done only by Nature or the modes of nature

> (13:20). Self has to " disassociate " from Prakriti (Nature) and

reap

> the benefits of Liberation / Realisation etc. Self " remembers " its

> eternal connection (Gita 18:73) with Paramatma ! " Self " realises

> Paramatma ! What is the " action " involved in experiencing /

> realising /remembering / associating /adopting ? If everything is

> mind then what is beyond mind?

>

> We don't " know " anything about Paramatma, our mind, intellect

> don't " know " any thing about Paramatma - now where is a question

> of " thoughts " here? We have no way but to " believe/accept " - what

is

> role of mind there? If we use our mind there what else we will hit

> except the brick wall - to quote Brother Mike ? What is needed

> except Self when we " accept " some one as our father or when we

> accept Paramatma as our own or something as our caste or someone

as

> our husband ? Where and what is " action " there? What is used out

of

> body for that action? There is no action in acceptance.

>

> Let us say we are looking at a river, we don't know which river.

> Somebody tells us it is Ganga and we immediately realise! What

> action is involved in our realising that it is Holy Ganga?

>

> Balance in next edition if still not clear. Regarding Brahma

example

> also suffers the same limitation. Desires/thoughts can never be

the

> actions of soul... NEVER !! How then they can be the actions of

> Brahma ? Anything which changes be it desires or thoughts or mind

or

> body can not be part of " SELF " It is fundamental thing. Read Gita –

 

> Chaper 2 – Verses 11 to 31 to begin with – there you will find the

> difference between soul and body.

>

> Jai Shree Krishna

>

> Vyas N B

>

> --------------------------------

>

> Original Question: If everybody follows " Nothing Is Mine " and " I

Do

> not need anything " and specially " I do not have any relationship

> with anybody " then how will the world work? The saints are able to

> do sainthood because there are people who pay for them. Do you

have

> a blog or area where people can discuss these thoughts?

> Vijay Aggraval

> -

-

> Jai Shri Krishna,

>

> Re: Sadhak Vijayji's Query – NOTHING IS MINE

>

> In reality, this world and everything is owned by Parmaatma, but

> when we try to exercise our right over it (encroachment) we get

> stucked with it.

>

> The money, things etc., which we consider to be ours, we become

> their slave – but we assume ourselves to be their master. The

money,

> property, things, family etc. which we consider to be ours, we get

> tied up with them and it becomes our responsibility to care for

> them. Those which we do not consider to be ours, we are not stuck

> due to them at all. Vijayji, just ponder over this logic.

>

> We are only tied up with whatever few properties, few people, few

> things and few rupees in the world. Those which we do not consider

> ours, we are already ABSOLUTELY liberated (untied) from. What is

> Liberation (Mukti) – it means to get freed. Thus, we are

99.9999999%

> LIBERATED (Mukta) only. Just little liberation is required to be

> obtained.

>

> This " mineness " with the worldly things and people is the outcome

of

> ego - which is positioned in the causal body. Another explanation

> given in the scriptures for causal body is " ignorance " . Visa-a-vis

> those which we don't attach mineness, whether they come or go, it

> does not affect us. We become positioned in Equanimity (Samta) as

> regards them.

>

> To believe that world is governed by desires is in simple words -

> STUPIDITY. Refer Swamiji's message of today morning. He

> stated " foolishness " to be cause of our miseries. He is absolutely

> right. What is stupidity? A person is called stupid, if he has two

> characteristics:

> 1. He does not know reality himself and;

> 2. He does not listen to others

>

> Now who can make him wise? Even if Paramatma Himself comes before

a

> stupid person - He will fail to impart wisdom. Because, as a habit

> that person does not listen to others and Paramatma is " other "

only

> for him.

>

> A person called his son's hostel in-charge to enquire the progress

> being made by the son. The principal told that the son is doing

> great except for two things – he does not know anything and he

does

> not listen to anyone. The person understood that his son is a

stupid.

>

> It is sheer stupidity (foolishness) to waist this golden

opportunity

> to get liberated so easily (with significantly substantial

> liberation already there).

>

> By considering perishable things as ours, we get entangled in them

> and deviate from our main aim of realizing Parmaatma. These

> perishable things were not ours 100 years ago and will not remain

> ours 100 years hereafter – there is no doubt as to this. If we do

> not consider them as ours and instead treat them as Parmaatma's

and

> put them to best use, then we will not get entangled with them.

>

> If we heed to the Saints and Sages, Scriptures, our elders,

> Preceptors, the voice of our Conscience, then the lack of

knowledge

> will evaporate and we shall become wise. But that is not

acceptable

> to the mind, from where the stupidity generates. Mind loves to

make

> us his slave. It changes shamelessly also. When we achieve

something

> this mind tells us - " Look how great I am " . We also join the

chorus -

> " My mind, My Intelligence, My Vision, My desires, My efforts " !

> But when we are unsuccessful , the same mind tells us - " it

> happens, I was right, but this situation, that happening, fate,

> destiny, time, was bad - I was right " - Non Sense.

>

> We should never trust mind. It changes. We should trust our

> Conscience instead. It never changes. If you ask your Conscience-

> Whether worldly things are mine- the answer will be - No ! Whether

> You need anything- the answer will be - No ! Whether you have any

> relationship with any body- the answer will be- No. Whether the

> Paramatma is mine- the answer will be - Yes !

>

> Let us all try - seeking answers from our Conscience.

>

> Narayana Narayana

>

> Rajendra J Bohra

>

> ------------------

>

> > >

> > > Hari Om

> > >

> > > Once we firmly accept anything at the " Swayam " (Self, I)

level,

> it

> > > becomes part of our being and thereafter all karmas flow from

> the

> > > body automatically - without any effort by Self. In

fact " self "

> > can

> > > only accept / reject / associate / disassociate- these are not

> > > actions. " Self " cannot " act " . Therefore Swamiji insisted

> on " firm

> > > acceptance " from the core being " swayam " of the facts.

> > >

> > > Spiritual journey in fact is not at all " a long journey " . In

> fact

> > > the moment we " accept/resolve " - we become Dharmatma (holy

> person)

> > > as per Gita (9:30/31)- upon that moment of acceptance

itself ! !.

> > >

> > > Therefore let us not consider the journey to be long. This

world

> > is

> > > like Kalpa Vriksha (proverbial wish yielding tree)- here as

you

> > > think, so it manifests. If you think, it is a long journey -

> then

> > it

> > > becomes long, indeed !

> > >

> > > All depends upon your " acceptance/resolve " . No change is

> necessary

> > > in outer conduct. As Mike said - " chop wood, carry water " .

> Before

> > > and after enlightenment - no change in actions/karmas. Keep

> doing

> > > same duties, same work , only the " self " inside has changed -

> > > forever! With change in " Karta " by way of acceptance - same

> > actions

> > > become totally different in giving results and in effect.

> > >

> > > Be solid inside and you cross the ocean. If in a cave , there

is

> > > darkness existing say for 1000 years and in another for say

half

> > an

> > > hour. In both the cases when enlightenment takes place ,

> darkness

> > > instantly goes. It is in not that in the former cave, it takes

> > more

> > > time for darkness to disappear. Hence we should always be

> > optimistic

> > > in spiritual journey.

> > >

> > > Pranaam to all fellow sadhaks and specially to Vijayji for

> > > inquirying and givine us an opportunity for sharing this

> > > understanding (Jnana Yagya) Site - Gita Talk Group.

> > >

> > > Jai Shree Krishna

> > >

> > > Vyas N B

> > > ------------------------------

-

> > >

> > > Vijay

> > >

> > > Just reflect what our mother gave us and what she received.

Did

> > she

> > > ever think what it will give her when she turned her blood

into

> > milk

> > > and gave us ?

> > >

> > > The world goes on because of the sacrificing attitude of a

few.

> > The

> > > india we have today stopped and is in chaos because everyone

in

> > > every walk of life including the selfless swamis are thinking

> > > of " what i will get "

> > >

> > > Reflect how we got freedom. it is the work of a bunch of

> ordinary

> > > folks or rather below average ordinary folks who rose above

> their

> > > selfishness bringing freedom to a billion others. What more do

> we

> > > require as an example that selfless service will do good to

all ?

> > >

> > > Siva Raman

> > > ------------------------------

--

> --

> > > It is all a matter of understanding.

> > > Understanding leads to transformation.

> > > Awareness on " nothing is mine " , " I do not need anything " and

> so

> > > on......is for the mind so that it could get some relief

> initially

> > > and later totally.

> > >

> > > Unless the clutter ends, there is no going forward. Mind will

> > keep

> > > on generating thousands of such questions.....

> > >

> > > These questions start dissolving as you do " manan " on the

> > above..and

> > > experience the meaning.

> > >

> > > Wish you good Mauning....

> > >

> > > Sushil Jain

> > > ------------------------------

--

> --

> > >

> > >

> > > > ----------------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > -

> > > >

> > > > First of all, thanks to everyone who took time to respond to

my

> > > > question and try to help. I'm really overwhelmed by the

desire

> > of

> > > all

> > > > the people in this group to help a fellow person.

> > > >

> > > > I agree and understand the points made by all, in this post.

> > > > Spiritual journey is a long process. I think it so happens

> that

> > > sometimes the mind wanders and feelings change and one vents

> out.

> > > That is the time when one should show Restrain and Believe.

> > > >

> > > > My humble thanks again to all of you for your responses.

> > > >

> > > > Vijay Aggraval

> > > > ----------------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > -

> > > > Hari Om

> > > >

> > > > In the previous discussion we arrived at the conclusion that

> > > > (i) Worldly things/ people are not ours

> > > > (ii) They are not for us also

> > > > (iii) They have been given to us and

> > > > (iv) They will leave us.

> > > >

> > > > Question is now what we should do? Shall we throw father /

> > > mother/money etc out of house saying - you are not ours/nor

for

> > us?

> > > How to live practically in life keeping in mind the above

> > > fundamentals ?

> > > >

> > > > Here is a very practical, simple, logical, scientific, right

> and

> > > Scriptures / Gita approved solution :-

> > > >

> > > > Imagine you are living in Rishikesh. Some close friend

visits

> > you

> > > there on the way to Badrinath. He has excess cash with him,

> which

> > he

> > > doesn't want to carry to Badrinath. He requests you to keep

> excess

> > > cash with you. He would come tomorrow and take back his money.

> You

> > > keep the money and let him go.

> > > >

> > > > Now consider your status vis a vis that money lying in your

> > > cupboard !

> > > >

> > > > Is it yours? No !

> > > >

> > > > Is it for you? No!

> > > >

> > > > Has it not been given to you for the time being ? Yes !

> > > >

> > > > Will it not be taken away from you tomorrow when your friend

> > > returns from Badrinath? Yes !

> > > >

> > > > Now what can you do? You can merely " serve " the money - By

> > keeping

> > > it safe! You may even cancel your late night programme of

going

> > out/

> > > next day programme so that if your friend comes earlier you

can

> > > return the money. You can only become extra vigilant for

safety

> of

> > > that money. What else can you do, except providing service ?

> > > >

> > > > That is all we have to do with the worldly things we have

> got !

> > > Can we consider that money to be ours? No. If we do that or

> > utilise

> > > that for self or think that now it is permanently ours because

> it

> > is

> > > lying in our cupboard, become proud of it, start thinking that

> the

> > > friend may not come back - then what shall be our fate ? What

> will

> > > you get if you think/do so ? Sorrows, struggle, lack of

> peace ...

> > > What else? That is exactly what we get when we become

dishonest

> > with

> > > the ownership of these worldly things.

> > > >

> > > > What an easy and practical solution! What is difficulty in

not

> > > considering that money that belongs to the friend as not

yours /

> > not

> > > for you / received temporarily / to be returned?

> > > >

> > > > Vijayji, now share your thoughts on this! Can the world turn

> > > upside down if you return the money back to your friend when

he

> > > comes back from Badrinath ?

> > > >

> > > > Serve the world with the things you have got without forming

> any

> > > sense of " mine-ness " with those things. In the end these

things

> > will

> > > depart - either these things will not be there or you will not

> be

> > > there or both will not be there ! Guaranteed !

> > > >

> > > > Sadhaks now can list out practical difficulties in

> implementing

> > > the above in practical life.

> > > >

> > > > Jai Shree Krishna

> > > >

> > > > Vyas N B

> > > > ----------------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > -

> > > > Nothing Is Mine

> > > >

> > > > Doubt over this statement is arising because the reader is

> > > contemplating on it by considering the notion that 'I am this

> > body'.

> > > To understand this statement one has to differentiate himself

> from

> > > the body. The word 'Nothing' here implies body, mind and

> > intellect.

> > > By assuming this false relationship with body we get bonded to

> the

> > > entire world because body is just a small sample of this

world.

> So

> > > those who don't want this bondage anymore the above statement

is

> > for

> > > them.

> > > >

> > > > To differentiate oneself from body the most important thing

is

> > to

> > > give importance to the fact that we (Self) never changes and

the

> > > body never ceases to change. You say that I was kid. Then I

was

> a

> > > young guy. Now I am an old man. The body has always changed.

But

> > has

> > > it changed suddenly after a gap of every 25 years? No. So has

it

> > > changed after every 1 year? No. So has it changed after every

1

> > > month? No. So has it changed after every week? (i.e. every

week

> it

> > > will remain as it is and then it will change after the given

> > period)

> > > No. So has it changed after every 1 day? No. So has it changed

> > after

> > > 1 hour? No. So has it changed after every 1 minute? No. The

> truth

> > is

> > > that it is changing every second. It takes time to read and

> think

> > > over it but it does not take any time for changing.

> > > >

> > > > Now a big question arises. Who knows this change? It

certainly

> > > cannot be body because it is the subject itself. So does mind

> and

> > > intellect know that change? No. Because like body they are

also

> a

> > > subject which can be perceived, which can be known. We all

know

> > that

> > > the thoughts which used to occupy our mind in adolescent stage

> no

> > > longer come to our mind today. Similarly our decisions have

also

> > > changed. Ignorant, intelligent, remembering, forgetting etc.

are

> > > different stages of intellect. But one who can perceive these

> > > different stages of intellect is beyond it.

> > > > Similarly we can also differentiate our Self from ego i.e. I.

> > > > Try to observe these 4 things. When you say 'I am, You are,

> This

> > > is and That is' so all these 4 things can be seen under some

> light

> > > (knowledge). That light is our Swaroop(Self). In that there is

> no

> > > difference of I, you etc. So The Self is Gyan Swaroop.

> > > >

> > > > The Self is Immortal.

> > > > As stated above, our existence is not because of this body.

> Even

> > > when the body was not present we were there and even if the

body

> > > will not be alive we will exist (Gita 2:11). We see the body

> first

> > > and then we look at our Self. This is the biggest mistake.

> Because

> > > the Self comes first and body comes later. Till now we have

> taken

> > > millions of births and all the bodies have left us. So what's

> > going

> > > to be so new about this body? Will it stay with you? Or will

you

> > > stay with it? Saints have said 'Sapana ho javasi Sut Kutumb

Dhan

> > > Dhaam' - Family, Money and House will merely be a dream. In

fact

> > you

> > > even remember a dream but will you remember all those things

> which

> > > you are now claiming as I and mine? If there is some custom

for

> > > remembering it then do you remember that in last life to which

> > body

> > > you referred to as I, to which person, house etc. you

addressed

> > > him/her as mine? If not then are you going to remember those

> > > things/persons that you are now claiming to be as I/mine? Then

> why

> > > get attached to them and claim them as mine?

> > > >

> > > > Swamiji has explained all the above topics beautifully in

> Sadhak-

> > > Sanjivani in Hindi. Please refer to pages -

> > > > 57-59, 65 - (Gita 2:13) - Our existence is not because of

this

> > body

> > > > 850 - (Gita 13:8) - Stages of ego getting destroyed in

> spiritual

> > > practice

> > > > 851 - (Gita 13:8) 'I, you, this, that'

> > > > 865, 866 - (Gita 13:8) The example of 'students sitting one

> > behind

> > > each other in an exam' is just amazing

> > > >

> > > > I have given page numbers as per Hindi version.

> > > >

> > > > Hare Krishna,

> > > > Varun

> > > > (Varun Paprunia)

> > > > ----------------------------

--

> --

> > -

> > > > Shree Hari

> > > > Ram Ram

> > > > From Moderator : For those with English version, you make

> look

> > up

> > > the specific Shloka. For those who understand Hindi the

entire

> > > Sadhak Sanjivani is online at:

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

http://www.swamiramsukhdasji.org/swamijibooks/pustak/pustak1/html/Sad

> > > hakSanjeevni/main.html

> > > >

> > > > Ram Ram

> > > > ----------------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > --

> > > > Vijayji,

> > > > Here is something to ponder:

> > > >

> > > > Among the worlds mystical tradition it is known that to

become

> > one

> > > > with The Divine, one has to:

> > > > Die to ones (lower)self,(ego mind); Death of ego;

Annihilation

> > > > (Fana), different ways of expressing the same concept. One

> > famous

> > > lady was taught by by her Guru, an Indian Sufi Saint, " there

is

> > > nothing but nothingness " , when she found THAT nothingness, she

> was

> > > at one with her then dead Guru and her GOD.

> > > >

> > > > B.G. 15.11. The yogis striving (for perfection) behold him

> > dwelling

> > > > in the Self; but, the unrefined and unintelligent, even

Though

> > > striving, see him not.

> > > >

> > > > Sacred books and wise council at this site, can point one in

> the

> > > > right direction. I am not sure where flashy cars, a fine

> > physique,

> > > and worldly status can point you.

> > > >

> > > > To the question, '..then how will the world work?'.

> > > > There is a Zen saying " Before enlightenment, chop wood,

carry

> > > water.

> > > > After enlightenment, chop wood, carry water " .

> > > >

> > > > And surely the people who offer sustenance to holy people,

do

> it

> > > > because they have reverence for them! An act of Divine Love.

> > > >

> > > > With Respect and Divine Love,

> > > >

> > > > Mike

> > > > (Mike Keenor)

> > > > ----------------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Narayan Narayan,

> > > > >

> > > > > May you attain salvation

> > > > > You have not created this world, it's functioning is not

your

> > > > responsibility. This world is perishing every moment, in

that

> > you

> > > > have no control. Why are you unnecessarily and uselessly

> > troubled

> > > > by these things? You have not understood the inner

sentiments

> of

> > > > Swamiji's points. He who does not understand properly, he

> > becomes

> > > a

> > > > master of half and incomplete knowledge. He who, in spite of

> > > > knowing, if he does not give up (sacrifice) the unreal

> > (perishing,

> > > > temporary), that is one of the greatest losses.

> > > > >

> > > > > R. C Vyas

> > > > > --------------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > -

> > > > >

> > > > > Hari Om

> > > > >

> > > > > Re Nothing is Mine

> > > > >

> > > > > I fully agree with Pratapji Bhatt. Swamiji never asked

> anyone

> > to

> > > > leave the house or relationships etc. Change is needed

inside

> by

> > > way

> > > > of acceptance of truth ! Change is needed at " assumption

> level " -

> > > > not in outer conduct/behaviour. We are sufferring because of

> > wrong

> > > > assumptions. We are confused because we have not accepted

the

> > truth

> > > > inside our heart.

> > > > >

> > > > > What is the truth? Truth is that- NOTHING IS MINE !

> > > > >

> > > > > What is " mine " ? A thing/body can be stated to be " mine " if

> we

> > > have

> > > > independent control over it; if it is born with us only and

> > remains

> > > > always with us, and when we are not there it departs with us

> > only.

> > > (

> > > > If a thing is " mine " then what is it doing here in this

world

> > after

> > > > I am dead? It is " mine " - how then it can be of others?)

Then

> > only

> > > > it can be ours - or there is any other way of something

being

> > ours?

> > > > ( Vijayji please deliberate here- Come On! ) A thing which

> > meets

> > > us

> > > > and later departs - how can that thing be ours? How can any

> sane

> > > > mind call that thing to be ours, which from the very moment

of

> > > > connection with you is disconnecting from you? (Vijayji- can

> you

> > > > give any examples of any thing which has different

> > characteristics?

> > > > Please enlighten!)

> > > > >

> > > > > If body is " yours " , then don't allow it to fall sick. Let

it

> > > > never grow old! At least don't allow it to die ! ! Can you

> ensure

> > > > that ? ( Vijayji -can you ensure that ?) If you cannot,

then

> how

> > > > can you assume it is yours ? Is body coming nearer to you

every

> > > > passing second or going away from you every moment ? How it

is

> > > yours

> > > > if it is going away from you every second ?

> > > > >

> > > > > What is dishonesty? You are called " dishonest " , if you

claim

> > > > something to be yours while in fact it is not yours. Is

there

> any

> > > > other way in which dishonesty can be defined? If we call

this

> > body,

> > > > these worldly things, etc to be ours then - are we honest or

> > > > dishonest ? ? Deliberate Vijayji here on these points! Come

> > on ! !

> > > > Consider these written words as blog only !

> > > > >

> > > > > What is reality? The fact is that this body, mind,

> intellect,

> > > ego,

> > > > these worldly things, situations, status, wealth, health,

> > > affluence,

> > > > relatives - all - everything which changes- everything except

> > > > Paramatma / Self/ Conscience :-

> > > > >

> > > > > 1 They are not yours !

> > > > >

> > > > > 2 They are not for you also!

> > > > >

> > > > > 3 They have been given to you for a predetermined time !

> > > > >

> > > > > 4.They shall be taken back from you !

> > > > >

> > > > > Now ponder upon the above discussion. Ask as many

questions

> as

> > > you

> > > > can. Argue till you don't get convinced or till you don't

> > convince

> > > > me - on the aforesaid facts. Then we shall resume tomorrow,

> > further

> > > > in the matter.

> > > > >

> > > > > Jai Shree Krishna

> > > > >

> > > > > Vyas N B

> > > > > --------------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > --

> > > > > There is need to understand that there are two identities

in

> > the

> > > > question below. Unfortunately, we refuse to distinguish

between

> > > > these two identities. These are the 'mind' and the 'body'.

> Having

> > > > understood this basic issue, it is easy to find an answer.

> > > > >

> > > > > " Nothing is mine, I need nothing, I have no relationship "

> are

> > all

> > > > a function of the mind. When Gitaji says these words, it is

to

> > > > highlight that there should be no attachment with the world.

> > > > >

> > > > > Doing things in the world are a function of body. When

> Gitaji

> > > says

> > > > these words, it is to highlight that 'Kartavya Karma' should

> > > > continue to be performed.

> > > > >

> > > > > I hope this will help Vijayji find an answer.

> > > > >

> > > > > A.H.Dalmia

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > --------------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > --

> > > > >

> > > > > Ram Ram,

> > > > > Vijayji has asked good question. However, one thing needs

> to

> > be

> > > > > understood that this world is created by Krishna and is

run

> by

> > > > divine

> > > > > mother with the wishes of the supreme God (Shri Krishna)

as

> it

> > is

> > > > his

> > > > > leela. Therefore, Shri Krishna very well knows that if

all

> > > people

> > > > > follow his principles, there would not be any universe.

As

> > long

> > > as

> > > > > the world exists there will be beings which would not

follow

> > > these

> > > > > principles. But what we need to focus upon is to follow

his

> > > > > principles in the Gita instead of worrying about what

> happens

> > if

> > > > all

> > > > > follows. That is Shri Krishna's problem not our problem.

> > > > >

> > > > > Ram Ram

> > > > > Sudhir Kalra

> > > > >

> > > > > --------------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > --

> > > > > I agree with the question, understand it too but the

problem

> > lies

> > > > in

> > > > > implementing it fully. Yes fully, at times I do so and

when

> I

> > do

> > > > so,

> > > > > I feel happy, away from the tensions and sorrows of the

> world.

> > > But

> > > > > don't know how I miss the track and again I fall in the

well

> of

> > > > > ignorance. This cycle goes on and on. I have used the

> > > > > word 'implement', actually it's wrong, every thing happens

on

> > > > > itself. But since the situation is not permanent though I

> don't

> > > > have

> > > > > any doubts, I have used this word.

> > > > >

> > > > > Goenka

> > > > > --------------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > --

> > > > > On a personal note, when I started to read Bhagwat Gita,

the

> > > > > question in mind was whether I become Sanyasi and abondon

> many

> > of

> > > > > actvities but it was in fact an explanation of WORK and

> > > worshipping

> > > > > Sri Krishna only by WORK. By not possessiveness, WORK

> becomes

> > > more

> > > > > objective and transparent and income level rises. The

money

> or

> > > > > increased ability is not interference but a resource like

> > water

> > > or

> > > > > earth which is in hand of NISHKAAM KARMI.

> > > > >

> > > > > In the Bhagwat Gita, I learnt 'updrishta anumanta ch... '

> and

> > > this

> > > > > is enough of my conviction and most practical. Slowly, I

got

> > > > > understanding of more words and ideas. So, the question of

> > > > > livelihood, and success and excellence are not opposed to

> > > > > renunciation or Sannyaas.

> > > > > Regards

> > > > > K G

> > > > > (Krishna Gopal)

> > > > > --------------------------

--

> --

> > -

> > > > >

> > > > > In response to Vijayi's question, my humble attempts to

> offer

> > a

> > > few

> > > > > thoughts,

> > > > >

> > > > > So often in life, we are not able to hold onto various

> > > > > assets. Money isn't there for a car payment, the car is

> > > > repossessed. No moeny for apartment rent, one has to go and

> stay

> > > > with a

> > > > > relative, something is stolen, as a wallet etc. One who

truly

> > > > knows, is not disturbed. He is equipoised, as the

> understanding

> > > > that " these things are not mine " has become realized

> knowledge.

> > > The

> > > > awareness that, try as we may, we are not the ultimate

> > controller

> > > of

> > > > all that happens, is a very high level of understanding. We

> > should

> > > > also know, that if in our heart the desire has awakened to be

> > > > detached from worldly things, and develop that intimate,

loving

> > > > relationship with God, then the Lord in the heart will hear

> that

> > > > desire.

> > > > >

> > > > > Being a renunciate doesn't necessarily entail living the

> > > > > life of a wandering mendicant with no possessions....it

> means

> > to

> > > > understand that nothing is this world is truly ours. " Ours "

is

> > only

> > > > the desire to serve the Lord, or serve our own whims.

Whatever

> > has

> > > > been put into our care, use it as much as possible to

glorify

> and

> > > > serve the Lord, whether it is our children, wealth, our

home,

> > our

> > > > intelligence....whatever we have should be used to serve

> > > > > Sri Krsna (or however we call the Lord)

> > > > >

> > > > > The sadhak lives on two levels, one is the internal

> > > understanding,

> > > > that nothing is mine, save and except the desire to serve the

> > > > > Lord, and then the external awareness, according to one's

> place

> > > > and status in life. The internal awareness, if truly on the

> > > > > level of realization (jnana) will constantly manifest in

> > external

> > > > > dealings, for instance, if one is externally somewhat well-

> off,

> > > > with a little money in the pocket, and a beggar comes,

needing

> > some

> > > > food, one who is fully aware of his own " non-ownership " will

be

> > > > quite willing to give in charity, if able, whereas one who

> > > > thinks, " this is mine, I worked hard for it " will not so

> > willingly

> > > > give.

> > > > >

> > > > > my dear Vijayji, truly, without putting our relationship

> > > > > with the Lord first, our lives are wasted. Those who have

> > > > dedicated their lives to helping give this knowledge, of

simple

> > > > living, high thinking, of making the Lord the center of our

> > worship

> > > > rather than our own bodies and minds, they are providing the

> > > > greatest service to humanity. Can we have even the basic

> needs

> > of

> > > > a human being, such as food grains and water, without the

> mercy

> > of

> > > > the Lord? No.

> > > > > Whatever we have is His mercy and kindness, and we should

> > > > constantly

> > > > > be striving to re-awaken our relationship with Him. That

is

> > > > gratitude, not that we take food, clothing, sunlight,

> etc....and

> > > > ignore that Person who is giving us these things.

> > > > >

> > > > > Hoping my words have not offended anyone,

> > > > > Mahalaksmi Dasi

> > > > >

> > > > > --------------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > --

> > > > -

> > > > > , " sadhak_insight "

> > > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Shree Hari

> > > > > > Ram Ram

> > > > > >

> > > > > > FROM MODERATOR:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Dear Divine Sadhaks,

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Vijayji has posed a wonderful question that will benefit

> > many

> > > of

> > > > > us !

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Question: If everybody follows " Nothing Is Mine " and " I

> Do

> > not

> > > > > need

> > > > > > anything " and specially " I do not have any relationship

> with

> > > > > anybody "

> > > > > > then how will the world work? The saints are able to do

> > > sainthood

> > > > > > because there are people who pay for them. Do you have

a

> > blog

> > > or

> > > > > > area where people can discuss these thoughts? Vijay

> Aggraval

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I appeal / encourage you all to not be passive by-

> standers,

> > but

> > > > to

> > > > > > step up to the challenge of the question being asked.

Let

> > us

> > > all

> > > > > > take this divine opportunity, to carefully and

attentively

> > > review

> > > > > the

> > > > > > message from Swamiji, the question and the responses so

> far.

> > If

> > > > > there

> > > > > > is any doubts, to bring it forward to the group.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I encourage Vijayji, Simiji and all others that have

> > expressed

> > > > > > concern on similar or related topics in the past; to

name

> a

> > > > few -

> > > > > > Madan Gupta, Anilji Bhanot, Vavamenonji, and any others

to

> > > > > > deliberate / respond with your very brief answers.

> Vijayji,

> > > since

> > > > > we

> > > > > > do not have a blog at this time, you may react from time

> to

> > > time

> > > > > more

> > > > > > actively, by asking counter questions, feeling free to

> > > > participate

> > > > > in

> > > > > > full, to gain clarification of any doubts that you may

> have

> > > > > related

> > > > > > to the topic being discussed.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > We shall allow maximum time span for this question until

> > doubts

> > > > of

> > > > > > sadhaks are clarified. In fact, there will be no new

> > questions

> > > > > > posted till this question has reached to a logical

> > > conclusion. I

> > > > > > therefore expect that all sadhaks will be fully engaged

in

> > this

> > > > > > discussion. Such questions / answers can be transforming.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Thank you all for this Jnana ganga !

> > > > > >

> > > > > > From Gita Talk Moderator

> > > > > > Ram Ram

> > > > > >

> > > > > > ------------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > --

> > > > --

> > > > > -

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Hari Om

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The apprehension as to whether the world will work or

not

> > > denotes

> > > > > a

> > > > > > presumption that the entire world is " driven by desires "

> > only.

> > > > > There

> > > > > > can not be any desireless actions at all and if the

> > desireless

> > > > > > actions are resorted to by anybody, the world comes to a

> > > > grinding

> > > > > > halt - at least for that body ! Too over confident an

> > > > observation

> > > > > > indeed !

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The observation reg the Saints is too bad - unbelievably

> > bad.

> > > Who

> > > > > can

> > > > > > pay for Saints? No body can ever pay for them or repay

> them

> > for

> > > > > what

> > > > > > they give to humanity at large. Judgement cannot be

passed

> if

> > > > > there

> > > > > > is a question/doubt.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Even without face to face interaction, the subject can be

> > > > > discussed

> > > > > > and grasped - if we utilise our power " to

accept/believe "

> > > and " to

> > > > > > know " correctly. You know that you have these powers.

Hence

> > > > kindly

> > > > > > now position yourself with an open, receptive,

> comprehending,

> > > > > > willing, ready to understand, logical, rationale,

> scientific,

> > > > > > patient, serious and impartial (equanimous) mind set and

> > follow

> > > > > what

> > > > > > all sadhaks respond pursuant to your question. I will

too

> > > > > contribute

> > > > > > from time to time.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > You of course will have ample opportunities of

expressing

> > your

> > > > > views,

> > > > > > of counter arguing , etc. You may even respond against

> each

> > and

> > > > > every

> > > > > > observation given by various Sadhaks of this Gita Talk

> > Group.

> > > We

> > > > > > shall definitely make an effort to convince you - by

sheer

> > > power

> > > > > of

> > > > > > the truth !

> > > > > >

> > > > > > If you are ready and have power of belief in you, then

> first

> > > > > believe

> > > > > > that in such deliberations ultimately the truth

prevails.

> You

> > > > will

> > > > > > have to be patient, though. Believe me, your question

> > otherwise

> > > > is

> > > > > > excellent and will help many. The answers will be eye

> > openers.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Jai Shree Krishna

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Vyas N B

> > > > > >

> > > > > > ------------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > --

> > > > -

> > > > > > Dear Sadhus, Master!

> > > > > >

> > > > > > If one takes the literal meaning of " nothing is mine "

> or " I

> > > > don't

> > > > > > have any relationship with anybody " , it will sound

> confusing.

> > > > > > However, these statements asks us to develop and live

> with

> > > such

> > > > > > inner attitude when dealing with world. Obviously we all

> are

> > > > > > interdependent on one another, rather, this entire

> universe

> > > works

> > > > > as

> > > > > > though it is one system. We all need the basic minimum,

> like

> > > > food,

> > > > > > shelter, clothing, and may be few others for survival.

As

> > can

> > > be

> > > > > > seen, these require us to function harmoniously in

society.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > What happens is that we get attached to " me " and

mineness

> > > becomes

> > > > > so

> > > > > > real, so important to us that we forget our

> > interdependencies,

> > > > > > duties, righteousness etc and end up developing greed,

> envy,

> > > > > jealousy

> > > > > > and other negative emotions. This leads us to suffering.

> > > > > > Swamiji's message below is very clear: In order to free

> > > ourselves

> > > > > > from suffering, we need to be detached from the things

of

> the

> > > > > world.

> > > > > > As made by God, we are complete in ourselves inwardly,

we

> > just

> > > > > need

> > > > > > to realize it by our inner attitude suggested here.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > To do so would require me to live and deal with world

with

> an

> > > > > inner

> > > > > > attitude as if nothing is mine. When established firmly

in

> > this

> > > > > > attitude, I will realize the truth of other statements of

> > > > > Swamiji: " I

> > > > > > have no relationship with anyone " , " I don't need

> > > anything " , " Only

> > > > > God

> > > > > > is mine "

> > > > > >

> > > > > > One doesn't need to avoid or escape from the world or

> things

> > of

> > > > > the

> > > > > > world which will clearly indicate aversions same as

> > attachments

> > > > > and

> > > > > > continuation of suffering. However, one sees God in all

> (God

> > is

> > > > > mine

> > > > > > in this sense), is filled with only love, compassion and

> > serves

> > > > > all.

> > > > > > After all when God takes care of such a one as promised

in

> > Gita

> > > > > 9:22,

> > > > > > (.....Yoga kshemam vahamyaham), He does it through

people

> and

> > > > > nature.

> > > > > > Such a one, while not selfishly related to anyone, is

> truly

> > > > > related

> > > > > > to all as if they are one.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > In summary, Swamiji asks us that while outwardly being

> > > > > > interdependent, be unattached and not depend on anyone or

> > > > anything

> > > > > > inwardly for our own comforts, and happiness. This is

> > because

> > > in

> > > > > > doing so, we will be inevitably unhappy due to changing

> > nature

> > > of

> > > > > > world. In this way when we are detached, we will be

> > objective

> > > and

> > > > > > have a right perspective for things of the world.

> > > > > > Namaskar....

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Pratap

> > > > > > (Pratap Bhatt)

> > > > > > ------------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > --

> > > > -

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Dear Vijayji

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Bhagwat Gita in chapter 16 says that people have either a

> > > > tendency

> > > > > of

> > > > > > liberation or bondage. These natural defense traits are

> > called

> > > > > DAIVY

> > > > > > and AASURI sampada. DAIVY sampada is about PARITTYAG.

This

> > > means,

> > > > > not

> > > > > > leaving or abondoning anything but retaining the

freewill

> so

> > > that

> > > > > > things do not become addiction and one is aware of self

> > nature

> > > of

> > > > > > free-will. This retaining of free will is called

> PARITTAAG.

> > For

> > > > > > example, a man becomes vegeterian or non-smoker or sugar

> > free

> > > or

> > > > > non-

> > > > > > competitive not because non-vegeterian food, smoking or

> > sugar

> > > or

> > > > > > competitive mentality are bad or good; but the

particular

> > man

> > > has

> > > > > now

> > > > > > discovered his own nature and these consumptions are

slowly

> > > > > becoming

> > > > > > irrelevant.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Consumption is two types. One, personal and two,

> impersonal.

> > > When

> > > > > one

> > > > > > is hungry and eats something alone, this is personal.

But

> if

> > > one

> > > > > does

> > > > > > not eat and offers food to his hungry wife or hungry

> > children

> > > or

> > > > > > employees to save their lives first, this consumption is

> > > indirect

> > > > > or

> > > > > > impersonal. Sri Krishna says that He at one stage is

BHOKTA

> > > > > > (consumer) but not directly. And when people eat food,

or

> > have

> > > > > peace

> > > > > > and love, this consumption is like happiness of great

grand

> > > > father

> > > > > in

> > > > > > joint family who consumes all happiness by watching a

> large

> > > happy

> > > > > > family, united. This state of mind of impersonal

consumer

> is

> > > Sri

> > > > > > Krishna. So Sri Krishna is a consumer (BHOKTA) but not

> > > directly.

> > > > > In

> > > > > > another sloka in Bhagwat Gita, Sri Krishna says His

devout

> to

> > > > > serve

> > > > > > all living being (SARVA BHOOT RATE HITAH) because it

> tastes

> > > much

> > > > > > better if consumption is indirect.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Sri Krishna is called GOVIND and GOPTA just for same

> > reasoning.

> > > > He

> > > > > is

> > > > > > secret commission agent for whatever exchanges takes

place

> in

> > > > > living

> > > > > > being. By consuming a sample of exchanges, He gets to

> know

> > > > level

> > > > > of

> > > > > > impersonal consumption. Therefore, Krishna bhakt have no

> ill

> > > > > feeling

> > > > > > towards one another because a part of this feeling like

> > poison

> > > > > goes

> > > > > > to Sri Krishna who is a GOPTA or GOVIND or commission

> agent

> > or

> > > > > > intermediary of exchanges.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Regards

> > > > > > Krishna Gopal

> > > > > >

> > > > > > ------------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > --

> > > > -

> > > > > > Somehow I agree with you Mr Vijay!

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Simi S.

> > > > > > ------------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > --

> > > > -

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Jai Shri Krishna,

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Sadhak Vijayji appears to be confused and somewhat

scared

> of

> > > > > > accepting simple and logical steps suggested by Swamiji

for

> > > > > > fulfillment of the very objective for which the human

life

> > has

> > > > > been

> > > > > > given. I will surely contribute in the deliberations but

> > before

> > > > > that

> > > > > > I am reminded of a short story which I want to share with

> > > > Sadhaks.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > There was a married couple residing together for 6-7

years.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > One evening wife said to the husband - Look I am fed

up

> now

> > > > with

> > > > > > you. I am not happy with the care which you are taking

of

> me.

> > > > Last

> > > > > > month you promised a Jhumka (jewellery) for me, but you

> never

> > > > > bought

> > > > > > it for me. I am not enjoying your company anymore. I have

> > > > selected

> > > > > a

> > > > > > new companion for me who will take me away with him

> tomorrow

> > > > > morning

> > > > > > at 8 AM. Till tomorrow morning I am yours and

thereafter,

> > Good

> > > > > Bye!

> > > > > > We have met in this life, please do not meet me again

here

> > or

> > > in

> > > > > the

> > > > > > heavens.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Husband was stunned. He pleaded, said he would get two

> > Jhumkas

> > > > > > instead of one and a good dress as well. He said -

Please

> > don't

> > > > > leave

> > > > > > me. How the neighbors, the society will look toward me

and

> > see

> > > > me?

> > > > > > Please! I am sorry.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > But wife was adamant. He tried his level best to

convince

> > her

> > > but

> > > > > > could not succeed. It was 11 pm in the winter night.

They

> > were

> > > > > living

> > > > > > in a small village with 100/150 houses. Suddenly husband

> > went

> > > on

> > > > > the

> > > > > > roof top of the house and started calling - Villagers...

> > > > Villagers

> > > > > > Pls come and gather around now. 15/20 people came and

> asked

> > him

> > > > as

> > > > > to

> > > > > > the matter.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Husband said- I have decided to divorce my wife.

Villagers

> > pls

> > > > > note.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Now wife kept on uttering - I left, I left I left him

> first -

> >

> > > but

> > > > > no

> > > > > > one heard her.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The villagers asked- any other thing. Husband said - No

> > Thank

> > > > > you, I

> > > > > > just wanted to keep you all posted. You may go now.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > When he returned to the bed room from the roof top, wife

> > told -

> > > > > you

> > > > > > are a very bad person, a liar - I left you and you told

> > > villagers

> > > > > > that you left me ! Explain !

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Husband said - Look I tried to convince you a lot, but

you

> > did

> > > > not

> > > > > > agree. Then why I should lower my moustache ! ! ! Before

> you

> > > > leave

> > > > > > me, I have left you !

> > > > > >

> > > > > > So Vijayji - why we should lower our moustache ? Before

> this

> > > > > world,

> > > > > > these relatives, this body, this money, this wealth,

this

> > > health,

> > > > > > this affluence, this status, this power, these rights,

this

> > > > > beauty,

> > > > > > this youth, these abilities, this position, these

> > > circumstances,

> > > > > > these situations, these thoughts, etc leave us, why we

> > should

> > > not

> > > > > > leave them? Are they not leaving us? Has not your

> childhood

> > > left

> > > > > you?

> > > > > > Is not your body continuously leaving you? If you have

to

> be

> > > with

> > > > > a

> > > > > > particular relative for 30 years and you have lived with

> > him /

> > > > her

> > > > > > already for 1 year, has not he/she gone away already by

> that

> > > one

> > > > > > year? Is not that relationship drifting every second

away

> > from

> > > > you?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > What are you waiting for ? Who has asked you to leave

> them ?

> > > But

> > > > > > can't you even accept the simple fact that they are not

> > yours?

> > > > Are

> > > > > > they not leaving you continuously ? Any doubt on that ?

> What

> > is

> > > > > wrong

> > > > > > in accepting a fact of life ? Can you deny this fact?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > So think Vijayji. Why you should lower your moustache ?

> She

> > is

> > > > > going

> > > > > > to leave you most certainly. Definitely. Why don't you

> leave

> > > her?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Narayana Narayana

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Rajendra J Bohra

> > > > > > ------------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > --

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Hari Om

> > > > > > Re NOTHING IS MINE

> > > > > >

> > > > > > At the outset I must state that there is no need for

you,

> > > > > Vijayji,

> > > > > > to worry excessively for the world. You have expressed

> > rather

> > > too

> > > > > > much of a worry for the world. Believe me, the world is

> not

> > > going

> > > > > to

> > > > > > turn upside down, or come to a grinding halt, if you

> accept

> > any

> > > > or

> > > > > > all of the suggestions contained in the Article referred

by

> > > > > you ! ! !

> > > > > > On the contrary it shall become far far better for you !

> It

> > is

> > > > too

> > > > > > big a world to worry. An individual like you or me is

too

> too

> > > > > small

> > > > > > to worry for it.There are systems and procedures, laws ,

> > which

> > > > > govern

> > > > > > the workings of the world and the activities of each

and

> > every

> > > > > > creature of this world. When our kindselves were not

> there

> > in

> > > > > this

> > > > > > world say 100 years before, then also this world was

> working

> > > and

> > > > > when

> > > > > > we shall be consigned to the flames say after maximum

100

> > > years ,

> > > > > > then also the world will remain. We therefore should

worry

> > > about

> > > > > our

> > > > > > salvation, our interests, our goal rather than taking

the

> > > onerous

> > > > > > responsibility of wondering as to how the world will

work

> if

> > we

> > > > > > follow " Nothing is Mine " etc. or what shall be the fate

if

> > > > > everybody

> > > > > > starts doing desireless actions or start saying- Nothing

> is

> > > Mine.

> > > > > > Your job is to find out first whether the statement is

> > correct

> > > or

> > > > > > not ! Let the world go how it is going so far.

> Reasonable ?.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Saints have said:-

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Tere Baave Jo kare Bhalo Buro Sansaar, Narain tu Baith

ke

> > Apna

> > > > > Bhuvan

> > > > > > Buhaar

> > > > > > (You damn care what the world is doing – Good or Bad.

You

> > > should

> > > > > > concentrate on cleaning your own house)

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Hence you should concentrate on what is your

> responsibility,

> > > your

> > > > > > duty, your role, your liability, your goal, your

> betterment,

> > > your

> > > > > > improvement, your interest, your benefit, your

> development !

> > I

> > > > let

> > > > > > you think that way. You may ask me why I have stated so,

> when

> > > > > nothing

> > > > > > is " yours " . I know you will not ask it. You have

> understood.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Anything illogical so far? Any thing which is confusing ?

> > > > Anything

> > > > > > which is unclear?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Feel free to first deliberate upon the aforesaid. Then

we

> > shall

> > > > > move

> > > > > > to the first acceptance – NOTHING IS MINE . Kindly be

> free,

> > > > open,

> > > > > > and active in deliberations. Be assured that in such

> > > > deliberations

> > > > > in

> > > > > > the end only the TRUTH PREVAILS ! Have that belief in

you !

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Jai Shree Krishna

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Vyas N B

> > > > > >

> > > > > > ------------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > --

> > > > --

> > > > > -

> > > > > >

> > > > > > , " sadhak_insight "

> > > > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > It is so confusing.

> > > > > > > If everybody follows " Nothing Is Mine " and " I Do not

need

> > > > > anything "

> > > > > > > and specially " I do not have any relationship with

> anybody "

> > > > then

> > > > > > how

> > > > > > > will the world work?

> > > > > > > The saints are able to do sainthood because there are

> > people

> > > > who

> > > > > > pay

> > > > > > > for them.

> > > > > > > Do you have a blog or area where people can discuss

these

> > > > > thoughts?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Thanks

> > > > > > > Vijay Aggraval

> > > > > > > -------------------

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 10:39 AM, sadhak_insight

> > > > > > > <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > 2nd July, 2008, Wednesday

> > > > > > > Aashaad Krishna Chaturdashi, Vikram Samvat 2065,

Budhvar

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Every human being is completely independent, powerful,

> > > capable

> > > > > and

> > > > > > > eligible in his salvation (kalyaan). The reason is

that

> > when

> > > > God

> > > > > > > gives human body to jeeva (embodied soul), he also

gives

> > to

> > > him

> > > > > the

> > > > > > > independence, power, capability and eligibility for his

> > > > > salvation

> > > > > > > (kalyaan).

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Now the question arises, what one should do for the

> same?

> > The

> > > > > > answer

> > > > > > > is that if a person firmly accepts the following four

> > things

> > > > > then

> > > > > > > his kalyaan is certain :-

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > 1. Nothing is Mine.

> > > > > > > 2. I do not need anything.

> > > > > > > 3. I do not have any relationship with anybody.

> > > > > > > 4. Only God is my own.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > The fundamental fault is to assume " mineness " with the

> > > > temporary

> > > > > > > worldly things. From this fault alone all other faults

> > arise.

> > > > In

> > > > > > > fact in this entire universe not even a thing like

hair

> is

> > > > ours.

> > > > > > > Thereforth as soon as we accept " nothing is mine " -

> there

> > > comes

> > > > > > > faultlessness in us and we instantly

become " dharmatma "

> (a

> > > pure

> > > > > > holy

> > > > > > > soul).

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > When nothing is ours, then what is there to desire?

> Hence

> > as

> > > > > soon

> > > > > > we

> > > > > > > accept- " I do not need anything " , we become " nishkaam "

> > > > > (desireless)

> > > > > > > and henceforth a " Yogi " as you acquire Equanimity. -

> > > " samatvam

> > > > > yog

> > > > > > > uchyate " (Gita 2: 48)

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > The essential self (svaroop) of every human being

> > is " asang "

> > > > > > > (naturally detached). Therefore as soon as we decline

to

> > > accept

> > > > > any

> > > > > > > relationship with any body or any thing that comes

> > together

> > > and

> > > > > > > later departs, we realise our self proven, obvious

> > > > > disassociation

> > > > > > or

> > > > > > > detachment. And as soon as we realise our obvious

> > detachment,

> > > > we

> > > > > > > become " jnani " (knowledgeable).

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > We are essentially a part of God - Gita 15:7. Hence

only

> > God

> > > is

> > > > > > > ours. Nobody else is ours. As soon as we accept our

mine-

> > ness

> > > > > with

> > > > > > > God, we become " Bhakta " (devotee of God).

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > A human being's kalyaan (salvation) is only vested in

> his

> > > being

> > > > > > > Dharmatma Yogi (pure holy soul, with equanimity and

free

> > of

> > > all

> > > > > > > desires), in being Detached and in being a Devotee of

> God.

> > > > > > > Therefore it is a spiritual aspirant's duty that he

> accept

> > > > these

> > > > > > > four worthy facts with a firm conviction. Then his

> > salvation

> > > is

> > > > > > > definite.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > From " Maanav Matra ke kalyaan ke liye " in Hindi pg

> 69/70,

> > by

> > > > > Swami

> > > > > > > Ramsukhdasji

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Ram Ram

> > > > > > > ----------------------

--

> --

> > --

> > > --

> > > > --

> > > > > > > GUIDELINES FOR POSTING A RESPONSE:

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > 1. The group is focused on the Holy Gitaji, therefore,

> only

> > > > > > > responses which further clarify the understanding of

> > Gitaji,

> > > > > will

> > > > > > be

> > > > > > > posted.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > 2. Making reference of Gitaji shloka is highly

> encouraged -

> >

> > > at

> > > > > > least

> > > > > > > once in the response. Wherever possible, please quote

> > Gitaji

> > > > or

> > > > > > > other scriptures to substantiate your response.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > 3. Please be as concise and to the point as possible,

> > > > respecting

> > > > > > > sadhaka's time. Under no circustance the answer should

> > exceed

> > > > > say

> > > > > > > one (book) page at the most (500 words or so) 3-4

> > paragraphs.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > 4. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs

> etc.

> > to

> > > > the

> > > > > > > extent that they further help in understanding the

Gita

> > > shlokas

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand

only.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or

> other

> > > > > > > organizations.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > 7. Complete reproduction of texts from any book is

> strongly

> > > > > > > discouraged, however references may be made of the

book

> or

> > > > > author

> > > > > > > (but not links to other sites).

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > 8. Kindly do not include your personal information

such

> as

> > > > phone

> > > > > > > number, address etc.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > 9. Please do not address the response to a particular

> > > > individual

> > > > > > > since the message is going to the entire group.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > 10. Due to the large readership, only those responses

> will

> > be

> > > > > > posted

> > > > > > > which are in line with the general philosophy of

taking

> > > Shrimad

> > > > > > > Bhagavad Gita as the reference.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > 11. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the

posting,

> if

> > > > > content

> > > > > > > is unclear for distribution or not directly related to

> the

> > > > > question

> > > > > > > being asked.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > 12. Please respond taking into consideration the

novices,

> > > > youth,

> > > > > > > westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the

use

> of

> > > > only

> > > > > > > Sanskrit words, rather provide the English word with

> > Sanskrit

> > > > > > > bracketed wherever possible.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > 13. Any personal remarks over the knowledge of any

> sadhak

> > or

> > > > > about

> > > > > > > the

> > > > > > > stage at which any sadhak is standing in his quest /

> > sadhna /

> > > > > > > spiritual journey - must not be included in your

> posting.''

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > 14. There should not be any sarcasm towards fellow

> sadhaks

> > in

> > > > > this

> > > > > > > spiritual learning and sharing.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > MODERATOR

> > > > > > > Ram Ram

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Nothing is Mine! How? Why?

 

There is a heart touching episode. There was a great, successful and

people-loving king called Nemichandra. He came to a conclusion under

the influence of Mahavir that nothing is his. He gave up everything

and went to do Tapasya next to Mahavir's Ashram. People visiting

Mahavir happened to see their king doing Tapasya. Then they

observed, " Such a great king we had. He left everything to his

ministers. Now see how those ministers are abusing his kingdom?! " .

The crowd passed on to visit Mahavir. Mahavir was talking of Jinatva

(Nirvana or Moksha). The impressed crowd commented with elation

about their king, " Our king is so great and he should be in the

Seventh Swarga (Jinatva) " . Mahavir said, " No! He was in the seventh

hell when you left! But now he is raising back toward the Heavens. "

 

When the king heard of " his kingdom " being looted by thugs he got

into a rage. Thanks to his spiritual heritage (Samskara), he

realized immediately " what my kingdom?! " and dropped the notion of

ownership to attain peace.

 

Ownership – be it in actions (Kartritva), be it in thoughts

(Gnyatritva) or be it in desires (Bhoktritva) – is the true cause

for all our miseries. Ownership is an imaginary refuge the ego hides

in to protect its notional self-interests. One has no rights to

claim ownership on any in the first place. That is the reason, any

insistence on owning anything is bound to bring misery back to the

claiming party. The ego wants something real (Happiness) from its

unreal notion (ownership). Something that is not real cannot bring

anything in real. Obviously, the ego suffers due to its own paradox.

 

Lack of ownership releives even a mundane person. There was a greedy

businessman. His assistant told his new property was on fire. He

said he is not worried. He explained to the puzzled assistant, " I

have already sold it! I don't own it any more!! " .

 

Unfortunately we have habituated this notion of ownership all over

our existential span so much that it has become an instinct in us.

We keep getting trapped in our own web of ownership. So this

question keeps raising, " How nothing could be mine?! " The Tapasya is

to stabilize the disturbed mind again and again perpetually to be at

the equanimity devoid of any ownership.

 

Somebody asked Chinmayananda, " How long should we practice it? " . He

quipped back with a smile, " Just 24 hours a day! " . That is the

Sadhana. That is the Tapasya.

 

Therefore, it is upto us … whether something is ours or not.

Accordingly, we are miserable or not. It all depends … what we

really want … the infinitude of wants driven by ownership to chase

the same perpetually or the ultimate want to overthrow the very urge

for ownership. We are all kings in a way. We have to be persistent

in our Tapasya. We get such disturbances (probably more often than

Nemishandra's case) and get trapped in our habit of declaring our

ownership … yet we should maintain the torch of the ultimate want to

remove all other wants to attain the want-less state of presence –

EQUANIMITY – in our lives. That IS true Jinatva or Nirvana or

Bramhatva or Kaivalya or Moksha or whatever ones names THAT as.

 

Again … ONLY IF YOU WANT TO … NEVER IF YOU ARE NOT CONVINCED …

 

Respects.

 

Naga Narayana

--------------------------------

Dear fellow travellers

The sense of ownership, desire/expectation, authority/control and

assertiveness, war/conflict/use of force are step by step diseases.

Sense of ownership is the root, and war/conflict is the fruit. These

steps are described in following two story.

 

In Panchtantra, this is explained by a story. A saint was passing

through a village, and villagers used to spun rope from grass which

is used in variety of application. One of the villagers offered the

saint one piece of nicely made rope. Saint was very happy about it by

his new status of 'ownership' and started imagining different

application of the rope. The saint finally got a 'desire' own a cow

so that he could tie it with the rope. He was now expecting to

receive a cow and he then owned the rope and cow together. The saint

was more worried with 'need of protection /security' of cow and he

then stopped wandering, and made a hut to live with cow and the rope.

The saint because he stopped wandering different villages, was only

dependent on only one village. And this created reluctance in

villagers to maintain as burden of livelihood of the saint who now

lived in a nice hut, and carried cow. Saint finally, renounced

begging, and decided to sell the milk of cow to villagers. He got in

return cereals and salt etc.. for his food basket and started saving

money for security of future with fear of cow's death. In search of

security in idea of money, his business grew manifold and saint

became a rich milk producer in that village. Existing society then

started resisting his power of money and control over milk supply. As

a result of resentment, villagers attacked at business empire of

saint, killing all cows, and the rope with all started with. Soon the

rope was burnt, the saint realized the cause of all of his

misendevear, and returned to being in same way, and walked again from

one village to another and lived peacefully hereafter.

 

Bhagwat Gita addresses right of free choice or self determination or

freedom. Sri Krishna says Parit-Tyaag. This is " Tyaag of the

different type " . Parit-Tyaag is yoga or integration. This explains

by an other story. There were two brothers in India. One brother

become engineer and lived in big city and has own business, and

another brother become teacher in government school in town. Both

brother were in great love and yet the younger brother somehow

concealed craftily or did not share his financial problem to his

elder brother who was a businessman. At one point, the elder brother

knew that the son of younger bother is not admitted to Engineering

College because the money was insufficient. He immediately provided

the money and forced the younger brother to accept it, and admit his

son in the college. The experience of admission in college and

activity of education is endured by the younger brother and his son,

but the actual consumption is in the heart of the elder brother. That

elder brother is called UP-BHOKTA (or impersonal consumer or who pays

for but is not end-user). He eats the food in such a special way that

his mouth is not filled by grains. This is Parit-Tyag and yet the

Yoga or integration. So, those who understand it, are knowing the

Tyag and are UpBhokta. This impersonal consumption tastes much better

that eating the food by own mouth.

 

May the god bless who read the two stories, and hierarchy of sense of

ownership, and false sense of abandonment, and right understanding of

Parit-Tyaag and Yoga.

Hare Krishna

K G

(krishna gopal)

-------------------------------

 

, " sadhak_insight "

<sadhak_insight wrote:

>

>

> --

> Nothing is mine - I do not need any thing - I do not have

> relationship with anybody

>

> One should try to lead a life in this world happily with the above

> in mind always. Then only one can enjoy real bliss of life useful

> for both iham and param.All our spiritual texts directs us in this

> thought process and way of life fulfilment.

> Adi Sankarachary in his Vivekachudamani enlightens us '

> Drusyamsarvamanaatma' -- mine, needs and relationships are

> illusions. That is why Gita directed us ' Sarvadharmaan parityajya '

> leave all ' mine, needs and relationships' .In Ramayana Sri Rama

> categorically cleared about the relationships. 'Yadha kaastamch

> kaastamcha sameyatya maharnave' - this is the eternal truth of our

> relationships with mine, needs and contacts with

> wife/husband,children and properties. Gita confirmed 'Avyktaadeen

> bhutani vyaktamadhyani' , the true nature of our relations with

> people. This is the final fate of our relationships.

>

> Bhagavad Gita cautioned us very clearly and directly '

> Asaktiranbhshvangaha putrdaar gruhadishu' - how our relationships

> should be. And also directly asked " Prajahaati yada kaamaan

> sarvaanpardhmanogataann' - how we should treat and think about

> needs, relationships to be Human of stitapragnya.

>

> Now think about - What is mine? Do you need anything ? Do you want

> to have relationship with anybody?

>

> G.Anjaneya Sharma

>

> --------------------------------

> Hari Om

>

> Sadhak Rajendra Bohra's latest posting is insightful. Stupidity

> indeed is not having knowledge himself and not heeding others. It

> indeed generates from mind only. It is definition given by Swamiji

> and hence it is final on the subject.

>

> Here I share one of my personal experiences with fellow Sadhaks.

>

> When in one of the discourses Swamiji Shri Ramsukhdasji Maharaj

> defined stupidity when asked the following question - Sir, such

> special souls are existing here, there and everywhere. Now how to

> deal with them? They don't know and they don't listen also. We can

> not run away from them also. Now what to do?

>

> The Great Saint smiled and answered by quoting an idiom in Marwari

> Language:-

>

> " Moorakh ne samjhavano doro, kootano soro "

> (You can not make a stupid person understand - it is very

> difficult. It is easier to beat him consistently)

>

> Then he went on to explain why Mother Nature washes our eyes with

> tears till they are clean enough to behold the reality. Why inspite

> of Paramatma being all knowing, all powerful, and the kindest sends

> unfavourable circumstances and pains to His own children. ..... To

> cure their stupidity !!!. That remains then the only way in the

> hands of Him to make a stupid person understand.

>

> He however also told that we should once tell such souls, as a

> matter of duty if we must, as to what is correct. We should not

> however be bad with them following the above idiom nor we should

> insist too much on imparting wisdom to them.. We should leave them

> to Paramatma's hands thereafter.

>

> Moral is that when we encounter such souls in practical life, we

> should not waste time in making them understand. We should ignore

> them, pray for them and leave them in the hands of Mother Nature. We

> need not get bad with them ! We should continue doing our duties, if

> any, vis a vis them. Nothing more is possible to be done.

>

> Jai Shree Krishna

>

> Vyas N B

>

> --------------------------------

> 'Kalpa Vraksha

> What a wonderful word

> That by itself provides you some thing which can not be explained

> Hopefully introductons from such words or dictionary of such

> classics. May be

> passed on by scholars will further illustrate lord krishnas sermons

> Thanks

> Dinesh Patel

> -

>

> DEAR sadaks,

> What is yours gets lost, what you need you dont get, very good

> relative discards you, this is experience on this earth due to

Karmas

> Saints ladies like Sri Andal, Sri Manjula, Jevanthi, Meera etc

> surrendered to GOD. But had sufferings due to Prarabdha Karmas of

> previous births. In their sufferings they knew it was from their

> account, but were very happy that they have atleast come to an end.

> Desire comes on its own based on Karmas. Saint Viswamitra desire

for

> Menaka came from the seed planted while he was king, though he was

> now a saint.

>

> During maha pralaya when all living die, but the desires, karmas

> etc remain along with Auras. They manifest after sometime.

> Brahmaji time is fixed that is 4 yugas. After that Maha Pralaya.

> Souls in Brahma Lok attains Vaikunt prapthi along with Bramaji.

Next

> creation the Bramaji will be Hanumayun. All this is there in

> scripts. Not my version.

>

> B.Sathyanarayan

>

>

> -

> , " sadhak_insight "

> <sadhak_insight@> wrote:

> >

> > Follow-up Question: My respects to all in this forum....I have a

> > few questions which I am requesting Mr. Vyas to clarify.

> >

> > I am in disagreement, perhaps due to my lack of understanding, why

> > it is said (below) that to rejects, associate or disassociate are

> > not actions;...even on a mundane level, these are considered

verbs,

> > which are action words.....what to speak of the fact that I, the

> > soul, has to choose to accept a course of action before it is

> > undertaken...I have always held the opposite opinion, that action

> > begins first from the subtle level....Lord Brahma did not manifest

> > the universe by taking the elements in his hands and combining

them

> > one by one, did he? Rather, it would appear that it was a subtle

> > process, brought on by the yogic abilities to move matter through

a

> > thought process....which stems from desire. To desire is not an

> > intangible " thing " ....rather, it is an action of the soul. We must

> > carefully analyze what it is we desire, otherwise, we will

manifest

> > through our actions conduct which will bring about pain and

> > suffering.

> >

> > In another paragraph, it is writtten, " This world is

> > like Kalpa Vriksha (proverbial wish yielding tree)- here as you

> > think, so it manifests. If you think, it is a long journey - then

> it

> > becomes long, indeed ! " So, the idea here is in accord to what I

> > am thinking, I am merely not understanding your choice of wording

> in

> > the opening paragraph. Thank you for the clarification.

> >

> > Mahalaksmi Dasi

> > --------------------------------

> >

> > Hari Om

> >

> > The thoughts are outputs of mind, which is part of nature/body.

> > In " self " there are no thoughts - because " self " is beyond

nature.

> > What thoughts do you have when you are in deep sleep? Self comes

> > into our mind's peripheral as a reflection only. There are two

> > things.

> >

> > 1) The output or function of mind.

> > 2) That which enters the mind involuntarily - as reflection

> > say " experience " or " realisation " .

> >

> > " Conscience " in fact enters the mind and reflects/shines there so

> > does " equanimity " and many other things including " acceptance. "

> > Remembrance (smriti) also enters the mind. They reflect/shine

> > through the mind.

> >

> > Thoughts are functions of mind, getting activated because of

> > commands of ego and intellect and because of desires. It is a

> > subject in itself.

> >

> > Mahalaxmiji, for your benefit, some examples of action and non-

> > action are being provided. We can not know our mind by

> > mixing /identifying " Self " with it. We can know the mind/body

(and

> > for that matter the entire world) only by being separate from it.

> >

> > There is no thought/action/mind involved in Love (Prem). (Real

> Love

> > is blind and mindless / thoughtless - it is direct experience of

> all

> > of us). When we check with our Conscience - is mind/thought/body

> > involved in Love ( PREM)? Similarly there is no thought or mind

or

> > action or body involved in Surrender/ Nishkaam Bhaav

> (desirlessness

> > as inner expression) / Shraddha (belief) / Vishwas (faith/trust)/

> > Devotion/Equanimity/ Remembering / Realising/ Experiencing / Love

> (

> > Prem)/ Tyaag (rejection/renunciation)/Association /

> Disassociation /

> > Adoption ! Only SELF is involved in each of these ! (Now -

> > what " verbs " or " Nouns " or " words " are going to do here - as

> > mentioned by you ?? )

> >

> > Therefore by using these means only " Self " can realise

Paramatma ,

> > because there is no shelter or use of mind, prakriti (nature),

> body

> > in these! There is no " action " of mind, speech or other organs of

> > body in these !! These are beyond Nature/Mind/Body and hence they

> > are means of Paramatma/ Self Realisation

> >

> > Think and tell me, what " action " according to you is involved

when

> a

> > son /daughter " accepts " someone as his/her father? What is the

> role

> > of thoughts or mind or body in that acceptance? Think over this

> > deeply - you will find the answer.

> >

> > In fact, there is no role of mind/thoughts/ body there! Self only

> > gets involved there. Self " associates " itself with Prakriti (

> > Nature/ body / mind), gets " attracted " to the world (Gita 15:7,

> > 13:21), Self " adopts " (Gita 7:5) the world and body and pays the

> > penalty thereof by way of " experiencing " pleasures and pains

(Gita

> > 13:20)! All actions are done only by Nature or the modes of

nature

> > (13:20). Self has to " disassociate " from Prakriti (Nature) and

> reap

> > the benefits of Liberation / Realisation etc. Self " remembers "

its

> > eternal connection (Gita 18:73) with Paramatma ! " Self " realises

> > Paramatma ! What is the " action " involved in experiencing /

> > realising /remembering / associating /adopting ? If everything is

> > mind then what is beyond mind?

> >

> > We don't " know " anything about Paramatma, our mind, intellect

> > don't " know " any thing about Paramatma - now where is a question

> > of " thoughts " here? We have no way but to " believe/accept " - what

> is

> > role of mind there? If we use our mind there what else we will

hit

> > except the brick wall - to quote Brother Mike ? What is needed

> > except Self when we " accept " some one as our father or when we

> > accept Paramatma as our own or something as our caste or someone

> as

> > our husband ? Where and what is " action " there? What is used out

> of

> > body for that action? There is no action in acceptance.

> >

> > Let us say we are looking at a river, we don't know which river.

> > Somebody tells us it is Ganga and we immediately realise! What

> > action is involved in our realising that it is Holy Ganga?

> >

> > Balance in next edition if still not clear. Regarding Brahma

> example

> > also suffers the same limitation. Desires/thoughts can never be

> the

> > actions of soul... NEVER !! How then they can be the actions of

> > Brahma ? Anything which changes be it desires or thoughts or mind

> or

> > body can not be part of " SELF " It is fundamental thing. Read

Gita –

>

> > Chaper 2 – Verses 11 to 31 to begin with – there you will find

the

> > difference between soul and body.

> >

> > Jai Shree Krishna

> >

> > Vyas N B

> >

> > --------------------------------

> >

> > Original Question: If everybody follows " Nothing Is Mine " and " I

> Do

> > not need anything " and specially " I do not have any relationship

> > with anybody " then how will the world work? The saints are able

to

> > do sainthood because there are people who pay for them. Do you

> have

> > a blog or area where people can discuss these thoughts?

> > Vijay Aggraval

> >

-

> -

> > Jai Shri Krishna,

> >

> > Re: Sadhak Vijayji's Query – NOTHING IS MINE

> >

> > In reality, this world and everything is owned by Parmaatma, but

> > when we try to exercise our right over it (encroachment) we get

> > stucked with it.

> >

> > The money, things etc., which we consider to be ours, we become

> > their slave – but we assume ourselves to be their master. The

> money,

> > property, things, family etc. which we consider to be ours, we

get

> > tied up with them and it becomes our responsibility to care for

> > them. Those which we do not consider to be ours, we are not stuck

> > due to them at all. Vijayji, just ponder over this logic.

> >

> > We are only tied up with whatever few properties, few people, few

> > things and few rupees in the world. Those which we do not

consider

> > ours, we are already ABSOLUTELY liberated (untied) from. What is

> > Liberation (Mukti) – it means to get freed. Thus, we are

> 99.9999999%

> > LIBERATED (Mukta) only. Just little liberation is required to be

> > obtained.

> >

> > This " mineness " with the worldly things and people is the outcome

> of

> > ego - which is positioned in the causal body. Another explanation

> > given in the scriptures for causal body is " ignorance " . Visa-a-

vis

> > those which we don't attach mineness, whether they come or go, it

> > does not affect us. We become positioned in Equanimity (Samta) as

> > regards them.

> >

> > To believe that world is governed by desires is in simple words -

> > STUPIDITY. Refer Swamiji's message of today morning. He

> > stated " foolishness " to be cause of our miseries. He is

absolutely

> > right. What is stupidity? A person is called stupid, if he has

two

> > characteristics:

> > 1. He does not know reality himself and;

> > 2. He does not listen to others

> >

> > Now who can make him wise? Even if Paramatma Himself comes before

> a

> > stupid person - He will fail to impart wisdom. Because, as a

habit

> > that person does not listen to others and Paramatma is " other "

> only

> > for him.

> >

> > A person called his son's hostel in-charge to enquire the

progress

> > being made by the son. The principal told that the son is doing

> > great except for two things – he does not know anything and he

> does

> > not listen to anyone. The person understood that his son is a

> stupid.

> >

> > It is sheer stupidity (foolishness) to waist this golden

> opportunity

> > to get liberated so easily (with significantly substantial

> > liberation already there).

> >

> > By considering perishable things as ours, we get entangled in

them

> > and deviate from our main aim of realizing Parmaatma. These

> > perishable things were not ours 100 years ago and will not remain

> > ours 100 years hereafter – there is no doubt as to this. If we do

> > not consider them as ours and instead treat them as Parmaatma's

> and

> > put them to best use, then we will not get entangled with them.

> >

> > If we heed to the Saints and Sages, Scriptures, our elders,

> > Preceptors, the voice of our Conscience, then the lack of

> knowledge

> > will evaporate and we shall become wise. But that is not

> acceptable

> > to the mind, from where the stupidity generates. Mind loves to

> make

> > us his slave. It changes shamelessly also. When we achieve

> something

> > this mind tells us - " Look how great I am " . We also join the

> chorus -

> > " My mind, My Intelligence, My Vision, My desires, My efforts " !

> > But when we are unsuccessful , the same mind tells us - " it

> > happens, I was right, but this situation, that happening, fate,

> > destiny, time, was bad - I was right " - Non Sense.

> >

> > We should never trust mind. It changes. We should trust our

> > Conscience instead. It never changes. If you ask your Conscience-

> > Whether worldly things are mine- the answer will be - No !

Whether

> > You need anything- the answer will be - No ! Whether you have any

> > relationship with any body- the answer will be- No. Whether the

> > Paramatma is mine- the answer will be - Yes !

> >

> > Let us all try - seeking answers from our Conscience.

> >

> > Narayana Narayana

> >

> > Rajendra J Bohra

> >

> > ------------------

> >

> > > >

> > > > Hari Om

> > > >

> > > > Once we firmly accept anything at the " Swayam " (Self, I)

> level,

> > it

> > > > becomes part of our being and thereafter all karmas flow from

> > the

> > > > body automatically - without any effort by Self. In

> fact " self "

> > > can

> > > > only accept / reject / associate / disassociate- these are

not

> > > > actions. " Self " cannot " act " . Therefore Swamiji insisted

> > on " firm

> > > > acceptance " from the core being " swayam " of the facts.

> > > >

> > > > Spiritual journey in fact is not at all " a long journey " . In

> > fact

> > > > the moment we " accept/resolve " - we become Dharmatma (holy

> > person)

> > > > as per Gita (9:30/31)- upon that moment of acceptance

> itself ! !.

> > > >

> > > > Therefore let us not consider the journey to be long. This

> world

> > > is

> > > > like Kalpa Vriksha (proverbial wish yielding tree)- here as

> you

> > > > think, so it manifests. If you think, it is a long journey -

> > then

> > > it

> > > > becomes long, indeed !

> > > >

> > > > All depends upon your " acceptance/resolve " . No change is

> > necessary

> > > > in outer conduct. As Mike said - " chop wood, carry water " .

> > Before

> > > > and after enlightenment - no change in actions/karmas. Keep

> > doing

> > > > same duties, same work , only the " self " inside has changed -

> > > > forever! With change in " Karta " by way of acceptance - same

> > > actions

> > > > become totally different in giving results and in effect.

> > > >

> > > > Be solid inside and you cross the ocean. If in a cave , there

> is

> > > > darkness existing say for 1000 years and in another for say

> half

> > > an

> > > > hour. In both the cases when enlightenment takes place ,

> > darkness

> > > > instantly goes. It is in not that in the former cave, it

takes

> > > more

> > > > time for darkness to disappear. Hence we should always be

> > > optimistic

> > > > in spiritual journey.

> > > >

> > > > Pranaam to all fellow sadhaks and specially to Vijayji for

> > > > inquirying and givine us an opportunity for sharing this

> > > > understanding (Jnana Yagya) Site - Gita Talk Group.

> > > >

> > > > Jai Shree Krishna

> > > >

> > > > Vyas N B

> > > > -----------------------------

[Guest guest]

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

This topic is also being closed at this time, with the exception of an open question or two. Thank you to all, once again ! Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram

Question:

If everybody follows "Nothing Is Mine" and "I Do not need anything" and specially "I do not have any relationship with anybody" then how will the world work? The saints are able to do sainthoodbecause there are people who pay for them. Do you have a blog or area where people can discuss these thoughts? Vijay Aggraval

-----------------

Shree Hari

Ram Ram!

Vijayji , thanks for a very good question!

Many good responses have already been posted. Swamiji Maharaj has explained this subject extensively.

Nothing is mine –

It is a common observation that there are many objects, many situations happening with many persons in this big wide world, we do not get affected by any of those, we get affected by only those objects and persons with whom we consider as ours, for those we feel pain or pleasure.

This is our common observation, during deep sleep state (not dream state), our association with all things and persons of the world is suspended, we experience the feeling of bliss which is most refreshing, which clearly says that the source of our uneasiness and displeasure is nothing but the worldly attachment (considering it ours) is the cause of grief and discontentment. We are bound only with what we consider as ours such as the body, mind, objects and the persons. In fact, if these things were truly ours, then we should be able to control them as we wish but that is not case. Swamiji Maharaj has emphasized that all things and resources (mind, body, objects) are not ours, they are given to us for service of others only. When we work to do things for others, we become useful to others, the others take care of us if we have the patience to practice this principle. That is exactly what the saints do, the world takes care of them.

Gitaji in verse 15-7, says very clearly who we are - we are a ray of conscience of the Supreme consciousness only, while this Jiva gets attracted through mind and senses, situated in Prakriti. Another reference in Gitaji is Verses 7/4 & 5, as Apara (Body, mind etc) and Para Prakriti (Jiva). The Apara and Para belong to God only.

I Do not need anything

When we work for the world without expecting anything in return, the world takes care of us or if we do everything as an offering to God then the Lord takes care of us. (9-27, 28, 9-22). Things are guaranteed to come to us because of our own prarabhda also.

I do not have any relationship with anybody

The relationship are only on the surface for the purpose of serving them only and expecting anything in return. (Karma Yoga). They have come in our life to balance our debt, may be positive or negative. The service to them should be done not as a burden but with cheerfulness and enthusiasm, trying always to make them happy, without expecting any sense of expectation (Gitaji 2-47).

Then how will the world work -

The world has been going on, before we got here, it will be there after we leave. This world is only a Karma bhumi, to do the karma according to Dharma. We do not have the direct responsibility for the whole world, how it would work? That who created this world, he knows what to do with this world. Our only responsibility is to realize God, the only aim of life while doing our duty to the best of our ability and resources, without expecting any thing for ourselves (Gitaji 18-45/46).

Madan Kaura

Ram Ram

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I could not understand meaning of this, please elaborate how god isGOPTA, and what does Govind really means. And most importantly how heis Secret Agent.regardsnidhi Sancheti*********************************************Sri Krishna is called GOVIND and GOPTA just for same reasoning. He issecret commission agent for whatever exchanges takes place in livingbeing. By consuming a sample of exchanges, He gets to know level ofimpersonal consumption. Therefore, Krishna bhakt have no ill feelingtowards one another because a part of this feeling like poison goesto Sri Krishna who is a GOPTA or GOVIND or commission agent orintermediary of exchanges.RegardsKrishna Gopal

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Nothing is Mine! How? Why?There is a heart touching episode. There was a great, successful and people-loving king called Nemichandra. He came to a conclusion under the influence of Mahavir that nothing is his. He gave up everything and went to do Tapasya next to Mahavir's Ashram. People visitingMahavir happened to see their king doing Tapasya. Then they observed, "Such a great king we had. He left everything to his ministers. Now see how those ministers are abusing his kingdom?!". The crowd passed on to visit Mahavir. Mahavir was talking of Jinatva(Nirvana or Moksha). The impressed crowd commented with elation about their king, "Our king is so great and he should be in the Seventh Swarga (Jinatva)". Mahavir said, "No! He was in the seventh hell when you left! But now he is raising back toward the Heavens."When the king heard of "his kingdom" being looted by thugs he got into a rage. Thanks to his spiritual heritage (Samskara), he realized immediately "what my kingdom?!" and dropped the notion of ownership to attain peace.Ownership – be it in actions (Kartritva), be it in thoughts (Gnyatritva) or be it in desires (Bhoktritva) – is the true cause for all our miseries. Ownership is an imaginary refuge the ego hides in to protect its notional self-interests. One has no rights to claim ownership on any in the first place. That is the reason, any insistence on owning anything is bound to bring misery back to the claiming party. The ego wants something real (Happiness) from its unreal notion (ownership). Something that is not real cannot bring anything in real. Obviously, the ego suffers due to its own paradox.Lack of ownership releives even a mundane person. There was a greedy businessman. His assistant told his new property was on fire. He said he is not worried. He explained to the puzzled assistant, "I have already sold it! I don't own it any more!!".Unfortunately we have habituated this notion of ownership all over our existential span so much that it has become an instinct in us. We keep getting trapped in our own web of ownership. So this question keeps raising, "How nothing could be mine?!" The Tapasya isto stabilize the disturbed mind again and again perpetually to be at the equanimity devoid of any ownership.Somebody asked Chinmayananda, "How long should we practice it?". He quipped back with a smile, "Just 24 hours a day!". That is the Sadhana. That is the Tapasya.Therefore, it is upto us … whether something is ours or not. Accordingly, we are miserable or not. It all depends … what we really want … the infinitude of wants driven by ownership to chase the same perpetually or the ultimate want to overthrow the very urge for ownership. We are all kings in a way. We have to be persistent in our Tapasya. We get such disturbances (probably more often than Nemishandra's case) and get trapped in our habit of declaring ourownership … yet we should maintain the torch of the ultimate want to remove all other wants to attain the want-less state of presence – EQUANIMITY – in our lives. That IS true Jinatva or Nirvana or Bramhatva or Kaivalya or Moksha or whatever ones names THAT as.Again … ONLY IF YOU WANT TO … NEVER IF YOU ARE NOT CONVINCED …Respects.Naga Narayana--------------------------------Dear fellow travellersThe sense of ownership, desire/expectation, authority/control and assertiveness, war/conflict/use of force are step by step diseases. Sense of ownership is the root, and war/conflict is the fruit. These steps are described in following two story.In Panchtantra, this is explained by a story. A saint was passing through a village, and villagers used to spun rope from grass which is used in variety of application. One of the villagers offered the saint one piece of nicely made rope. Saint was very happy about it byhis new status of 'ownership' and started imagining different application of the rope. The saint finally got a 'desire' own a cow so that he could tie it with the rope. He was now expecting toreceive a cow and he then owned the rope and cow together. The saint was more worried with 'need of protection /security' of cow and he then stopped wandering, and made a hut to live with cow and the rope. The saint because he stopped wandering different villages, was onlydependent on only one village. And this created reluctance in villagers to maintain as burden of livelihood of the saint who now lived in a nice hut, and carried cow. Saint finally, renouncedbegging, and decided to sell the milk of cow to villagers. He got in return cereals and salt etc.. for his food basket and started saving money for security of future with fear of cow's death. In search of security in idea of money, his business grew manifold and saint became a rich milk producer in that village. Existing society then started resisting his power of money and control over milk supply. As a result of resentment, villagers attacked at business empire ofsaint, killing all cows, and the rope with all started with. Soon the rope was burnt, the saint realized the cause of all of his misendevear, and returned to being in same way, and walked again from one village to another and lived peacefully hereafter.Bhagwat Gita addresses right of free choice or self determination or freedom. Sri Krishna says Parit-Tyaag. This is "Tyaag of the different type". Parit-Tyaag is yoga or integration. This explains by an other story. There were two brothers in India. One brother become engineer and lived in big city and has own business, and another brother become teacher in government school in town. Both brother were in great love and yet the younger brother somehow concealed craftily or did not share his financial problem to his elder brother who was a businessman. At one point, the elder brother knew that the son of younger bother is not admitted to Engineering College because the money was insufficient. He immediately providedthe money and forced the younger brother to accept it, and admit his son in the college. The experience of admission in college and activity of education is endured by the younger brother and his son, but the actual consumption is in the heart of the elder brother. Thatelder brother is called UP-BHOKTA (or impersonal consumer or who pays for but is not end-user). He eats the food in such a special way that his mouth is not filled by grains. This is Parit-Tyag and yet the Yoga or integration. So, those who understand it, are knowing the Tyag and are UpBhokta. This impersonal consumption tastes much better that eating the food by own mouth.May the god bless who read the two stories, and hierarchy of sense of ownership, and false sense of abandonment, and right understanding of Parit-Tyaag and Yoga.Hare KrishnaK G(krishna gopal)

----------Nothing is mine - I do not need any thing - I do not have relationship with anybodyOne should try to lead a life in this world happily with the above in mind always. Then only one can enjoy real bliss of life useful for both iham and param.All our spiritual texts directs us in this thought process and way of life fulfilment. Adi Sankarachary in his Vivekachudamani enlightens us ' Drusyamsarvamanaatma' -- mine, needs and relationships are illusions. That is why Gita directed us ' Sarvadharmaan parityajya 'leave all ' mine, needs and relationships' . In Ramayana Sri Rama categorically cleared about the relationships. 'Yadha kaastamch kaastamcha sameyatya maharnave' - this is the eternal truth of our relationships with mine, needs and contacts with wife/husband,children and properties. Gita confirmed 'Avyktaadeen bhutani vyaktamadhyani' , the true nature of our relations with people. This is the final fate of our relationships.Bhagavad Gita cautioned us very clearly and directly ' Asaktiranbhshvangaha putrdaar gruhadishu' - how our relationships should be. And also directly asked "Prajahaati yada kaamaan sarvaanpardhmanogataann' - how we should treat and think aboutneeds, relationships to be Human of stitapragnya.Now think about - What is mine? Do you need anything ? Do you want to have relationship with anybody?G.Anjaneya Sharma--------------------------------Hari OmSadhak Rajendra Bohra's latest posting is insightful. Stupidity indeed is not having knowledge himself and not heeding others. It indeed generates from mind only. It is definition given by Swamiji and hence it is final on the subject.Here I share one of my personal experiences with fellow Sadhaks.When in one of the discourses Swamiji Shri Ramsukhdasji Maharaj defined stupidity when asked the following question - Sir, such special souls are existing here, there and everywhere. Now how to deal with them? They don't know and they don't listen also. We can not run away from them also. Now what to do?The Great Saint smiled and answered by quoting an idiom in Marwari Language:-" Moorakh ne samjhavano doro, kootano soro"(You can not make a stupid person understand - it is very difficult. It is easier to beat him consistently)Then he went on to explain why Mother Nature washes our eyes with tears till they are clean enough to behold the reality. Why inspite of Paramatma being all knowing, all powerful, and the kindest sends unfavourable circumstances and pains to His own children. ..... Tocure their stupidity !!!. That remains then the only way in the hands of Him to make a stupid person understand.He however also told that we should once tell such souls, as a matter of duty if we must, as to what is correct. We should not however be bad with them following the above idiom nor we should insist too much on imparting wisdom to them.. We should leave them to Paramatma's hands thereafter.Moral is that when we encounter such souls in practical life, we should not waste time in making them understand. We should ignore them, pray for them and leave them in the hands of Mother Nature. We need not get bad with them ! We should continue doing our duties, ifany, vis a vis them. Nothing more is possible to be done.Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B--------------------------------'Kalpa VrakshaWhat a wonderful word That by itself provides you some thing which can not be explainedHopefully introductons from such words or dictionary of such classics. May be passed on by scholars will further illustrate lord krishnas sermons ThanksDinesh Patel-DEAR sadaks,What is yours gets lost, what you need you dont get, very good relative discards you, this is experience on this earth due to Karmas Saints ladies like Sri Andal, Sri Manjula, Jevanthi, Meera etc surrendered to GOD. But had sufferings due to Prarabdha Karmas of previous births. In their sufferings they knew it was from their account, but were very happy that they have atleast come to an end.Desire comes on its own based on Karmas. Saint Viswamitra desire for Menaka came from the seed planted while he was king, though he was now a saint.During maha pralaya when all living die, but the desires, karmas etc remain along with Auras. They manifest after sometime. Brahmaji time is fixed that is 4 yugas. After that Maha Pralaya.Souls in Brahma Lok attains Vaikunt prapthi along with Bramaji. Next creation the Bramaji will be Hanumayun. All this is there in scripts. Not my version. B.Sathyanarayan> > -Follow-up Question: My respects to all in this forum....I have a few questions which I am requesting Mr. Vyas to clarify.I am in disagreement, perhaps due to my lack of understanding, why it is said (below) that to rejects, associate or disassociate are not actions;...even on a mundane level, these are considered verbs, which are action words.....what to speak of the fact that I, thesoul, has to choose to accept a course of action before it is undertaken...I have always held the opposite opinion, that action begins first from the subtle level....Lord Brahma did not manifestthe universe by taking the elements in his hands and combining them one by one, did he? Rather, it would appear that it was a subtle process, brought on by the yogic abilities to move matter through a thought process....which stems from desire. To desire is not an intangible "thing"....rather, it is an action of the soul. We must carefully analyze what it is we desire, otherwise, we will manifest through our actions conduct which will bring about pain andsuffering.In another paragraph, it is writtten, "This world is like Kalpa Vriksha (proverbial wish yielding tree)- here as you think, so it manifests. If you think, it is a long journey - then itbecomes long, indeed !" So, the idea here is in accord to what I am thinking, I am merely not understanding your choice of wording in the opening paragraph. Thank you for the clarification.Mahalaksmi Dasi--------------------------------Hari OmThe thoughts are outputs of mind, which is part of nature/body. In "self" there are no thoughts - because "self" is beyond nature. What thoughts do you have when you are in deep sleep? Self comes into our mind's peripheral as a reflection only. There are two things.1) The output or function of mind.2) That which enters the mind involuntarily - as reflection say "experience" or "realisation"."Conscience" in fact enters the mind and reflects/shines there so does "equanimity" and many other things including "acceptance." Remembrance (smriti) also enters the mind. They reflect/shine through the mind.Thoughts are functions of mind, getting activated because of commands of ego and intellect and because of desires. It is a subject in itself.Mahalaxmiji, for your benefit, some examples of action and non- action are being provided. We can not know our mind by mixing /identifying "Self" with it. We can know the mind/body (and for that matter the entire world) only by being separate from it.There is no thought/action/mind involved in Love (Prem). (Real Love is blind and mindless / thoughtless - it is direct experience of all of us). When we check with our Conscience - is mind/thought/body involved in Love ( PREM)? Similarly there is no thought or mind oraction or body involved in Surrender/ Nishkaam Bhaav (desirlessness as inner expression) / Shraddha (belief) / Vishwas (faith/trust)/ Devotion/Equanimity/ Remembering / Realising/ Experiencing / Love ( Prem)/ Tyaag (rejection/renunciation)/Association / Disassociation /Adoption ! Only SELF is involved in each of these ! (Now - what "verbs" or "Nouns" or "words" are going to do here - as mentioned by you ?? )Therefore by using these means only "Self" can realise Paramatma , because there is no shelter or use of mind, prakriti (nature), body in these! There is no "action" of mind, speech or other organs of body in these !! These are beyond Nature/Mind/Body and hence they are means of Paramatma/ Self Realisation Think and tell me, what "action" according to you is involved when a son /daughter "accepts" someone as his/her father? What is the role of thoughts or mind or body in that acceptance? Think over this deeply - you will find the answer.In fact, there is no role of mind/thoughts/ body there! Self only gets involved there. Self "associates" itself with Prakriti ( Nature/ body / mind), gets "attracted" to the world (Gita 15:7,13:21), Self "adopts" (Gita 7:5) the world and body and pays the penalty thereof by way of "experiencing" pleasures and pains (Gita 13:20)! All actions are done only by Nature or the modes of nature (13:20). Self has to "disassociate" from Prakriti (Nature) and reap the benefits of Liberation / Realisation etc. Self "remembers" its eternal connection (Gita 18:73) with Paramatma ! "Self" realises Paramatma ! What is the "action" involved in experiencing /realising /remembering / associating /adopting ? If everything is mind then what is beyond mind?We don't" know" anything about Paramatma, our mind, intellect don't "know" any thing about Paramatma - now where is a question of "thoughts" here? We have no way but to "believe/accept"- what is role of mind there? If we use our mind there what else we will hitexcept the brick wall - to quote Brother Mike ? What is needed except Self when we "accept" some one as our father or when we accept Paramatma as our own or something as our caste or someone as our husband ? Where and what is "action" there? What is used out of body for that action? There is no action in acceptance.Let us say we are looking at a river, we don't know which river. Somebody tells us it is Ganga and we immediately realise! What action is involved in our realising that it is Holy Ganga?Balance in next edition if still not clear. Regarding Brahma example also suffers the same limitation. Desires/thoughts can never be the actions of soul... NEVER !! How then they can be the actions of Brahma ? Anything which changes be it desires or thoughts or mind or body can not be part of "SELF" It is fundamental thing. Read Gita – Chaper 2 – Verses 11 to 31 to begin with – there you will find the difference between soul and body.Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B--------------------------------Original Question: If everybody follows "Nothing Is Mine" and "I Do not need anything" and specially "I do not have any relationship with anybody" then how will the world work? The saints are able to do sainthood because there are people who pay for them. Do you havea blog or area where people can discuss these thoughts? Vijay Aggraval--Jai Shri Krishna,Re: Sadhak Vijayji's Query – NOTHING IS MINEIn reality, this world and everything is owned by Parmaatma, but when we try to exercise our right over it (encroachment) we get stucked with it. The money, things etc., which we consider to be ours, we become their slave – but we assume ourselves to be their master. The money, property, things, family etc. which we consider to be ours, we get tied up with them and it becomes our responsibility to care for them. Those which we do not consider to be ours, we are not stuck due to them at all. Vijayji, just ponder over this logic.We are only tied up with whatever few properties, few people, few things and few rupees in the world. Those which we do not consider ours, we are already ABSOLUTELY liberated (untied) from. What is Liberation (Mukti) – it means to get freed. Thus, we are 99.9999999%LIBERATED (Mukta) only. Just little liberation is required to be obtained.This "mineness" with the worldly things and people is the outcome of ego - which is positioned in the causal body. Another explanation given in the scriptures for causal body is" ignorance". Visa-a-vis those which we don't attach mineness, whether they come or go, it does not affect us. We become positioned in Equanimity (Samta) as regards them.To believe that world is governed by desires is in simple words - STUPIDITY. Refer Swamiji's message of today morning. He stated "foolishness" to be cause of our miseries. He is absolutelyright. What is stupidity? A person is called stupid, if he has two characteristics:1. He does not know reality himself and; 2. He does not listen to othersNow who can make him wise? Even if Paramatma Himself comes before a stupid person - He will fail to impart wisdom. Because, as a habit that person does not listen to others and Paramatma is "other" only for him.A person called his son's hostel in-charge to enquire the progress being made by the son. The principal told that the son is doing great except for two things – he does not know anything and he does not listen to anyone. The person understood that his son is a stupid.It is sheer stupidity (foolishness) to waist this golden opportunity to get liberated so easily (with significantly substantial liberation already there).By considering perishable things as ours, we get entangled in them and deviate from our main aim of realizing Parmaatma. These perishable things were not ours 100 years ago and will not remain ours 100 years hereafter – there is no doubt as to this. If we do not consider them as ours and instead treat them as Parmaatma's and put them to best use, then we will not get entangled with them.If we heed to the Saints and Sages, Scriptures, our elders, Preceptors, the voice of our Conscience, then the lack of knowledge will evaporate and we shall become wise. But that is not acceptable to the mind, from where the stupidity generates. Mind loves to make us his slave. It changes shamelessly also. When we achieve something this mind tells us - "Look how great I am". We also join the chorus - " My mind, My Intelligence, My Vision, My desires, My efforts" ! But when we are unsuccessful , the same mind tells us - " it happens, I was right, but this situation, that happening, fate, destiny, time, was bad - I was right" - Non Sense.We should never trust mind. It changes. We should trust our Conscience instead. It never changes. If you ask your Conscience- Whether worldly things are mine- the answer will be - No ! Whether You need anything- the answer will be - No ! Whether you have any relationship with any body- the answer will be- No. Whether the Paramatma is mine- the answer will be - Yes !Let us all try - seeking answers from our Conscience.Narayana NarayanaRajendra J Bohra ------------------My respects to all in this forum....I have a few questions which I am requesting Mr. Vyas to clarify.I am in disagreement, perhaps due to my lack of understanding, why it is said (below) that to rejects, associate or disassociate are not actions;...even on a mundane level, these are considered verbs, which are action words.....what to speak of the fact that I, the soul, has to choose to accept a course of action before it is undertaken...I have always held the opposite opinion, that action begins first from the subtle level....Lord Brahma did not manifest the universe by taking the elements in his hands and combining them one by one, did he? Rather, it would appear that it was a subtle process, brought on by the yogic abilities to move matter through a thought process....which stems from desire. To desire is not an intangible "thing"....rather, it is an action of the soul. We must carefully analyze what it is we desire, otherwise, we will manifest through our actions conduct which will bring about pain andsuffering.In another paragraph, it is writtten, "This world is like Kalpa Vriksha (proverbial wish yielding tree)- here as you think, so it manifests. If you think, it is a long journey - then it becomes long, indeed !" So, the idea here is in accord to what I am thinking, I am merely not understanding your choice of wording in the opening paragraph. Thank you for the clarification.Mahalaksmi Dasi

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Hari OmOnce we firmly accept anything at the "Swayam" (Self, I) level, it becomes part of our being and thereafter all karmas flow from the body automatically - without any effort by Self. In fact "self" can only accept / reject / associate / disassociate- these are not actions. "Self" cannot "act". Therefore Swamiji insisted on "firm acceptance" from the core being "swayam" of the facts.Spiritual journey in fact is not at all "a long journey". In fact the moment we "accept/resolve" - we become Dharmatma (holy person) as per Gita (9:30/31)- upon that moment of acceptance itself ! !.Therefore let us not consider the journey to be long. This world is like Kalpa Vriksha proverbial wish yielding tree)- here as you think, so it manifests. If you think, it is a long journey - then it becomes long, indeed !All depends upon your "acceptance/resolve". No change is necessary in outer conduct. As Mike said - "chop wood, carry water". Before and after enlightenment - no change in actions/karmas. Keep doing same duties, same work , only the "self" inside has changed -forever! With change in "Karta" by way of acceptance - same actions become totally different in giving results and in effect.Be solid inside and you cross the ocean. If in a cave , there is darkness existing say for 1000 years and in another for say half an hour. In both the cases when enlightenment takes place , darkness instantly goes. It is in not that in the former cave, it takes more time for darkness to disappear. Hence we should always be optimistic in spiritual journey.Pranaam to all fellow sadhaks and specially to Vijayji for inquirying and givine us an opportunity for sharing this understanding (Jnana Yagya) Site - Gita Talk Group.Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B-------------------------------VijayJust reflect what our mother gave us and what she received. Did she ever think what it will give her when she turned her blood into milk and gave us ?The world goes on because of the sacrificing attitude of a few. The india we have today stopped and is in chaos because everyone in every walk of life including the selfless swamis are thinking of "what i will get"Reflect how we got freedom. it is the work of a bunch of ordinary folks or rather below average ordinary folks who rose above their selfishness bringing freedom to a billion others. What more do we require as an example that selfless service will do good to all ?Siva Raman-It is all a matter of understanding. Understanding leads to transformation. Awareness on "nothing is mine" , "I do not need anything" and so on......is for the mind so that it could get some relief initially and later totally.Unless the clutter ends, there is no going forward. Mind will keep on generating thousands of such questions.....These questions start dissolving as you do "manan" on the above..and experience the meaning.Wish you good Mauning....Sushil Jain-

First of all, thanks to everyone who took time to respond to my question and try to help. I'm really overwhelmed by the desire of all the people in this group to help a fellow person.I agree and understand the points made by all, in this post. Spiritual journey is a long process. I think it so happens that sometimes the mind wanders and feelings change and one vents out. That is the time when one should show Restrain and Believe.My humble thanks again to all of you for your responses.Vijay Aggraval--Hari OmIn the previous discussion we arrived at the conclusion that (i) Worldly things/ people are not ours(ii) They are not for us also(iii) They have been given to us and(iv) They will leave us.Question is now what we should do? Shall we throw father / mother/money etc out of house saying - you are not ours/nor for us? How to live practically in life keeping in mind the above fundamentals ?Here is a very practical, simple, logical, scientific, right and Scriptures / Gita approved solution :-Imagine you are living in Rishikesh. Some close friend visits you there on the way to Badrinath. He has excess cash with him, which he doesn't want to carry to Badrinath. He requests you to keep excess cash with you. He would come tomorrow and take back his money. You keep the money and let him go. Now consider your status vis a vis that money lying in your cupboard !Is it yours? No !Is it for you? No!Has it not been given to you for the time being ? Yes !Will it not be taken away from you tomorrow when your friend returns fromBadrinath? Yes !Now what can you do? You can merely "serve" the money - By keeping it safe! You may even cancel your late night programme of going out/ next day programme so that if your friend comes earlier you can return the money. You can only become extra vigilant for safety of that money. What else can you do, except providing service ?That is all we have to do with the worldly things we have got ! Can we consider that money to be ours? No. If we do that or utilise that for self or think that now it is permanently ours because it is lying in our cupboard, become proud of it, start thinking that the friend may not come back - then what shall be our fate ? What will you get if you think/do so ? Sorrows, struggle, lack of peace ... What else? That is exactly what we get when we become dishonest with the ownership of these worldly things.What an easy and practical solution! What is difficulty in not considering that money that belongs to the friend as not yours / not for you / received temporarily / to be returned?Vijayji, now share your thoughts on this! Can the world turn upside down if you return the money back to your friend when he comes back from Badrinath ?Serve the world with the things you have got without forming any sense of "mine-ness" with those things. In the end these things will depart - either these things will not be there or you will not be there or both will not be there ! Guaranteed !Sadhaks now can list out practical difficulties in implementing the above in practical life.Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B--Nothing Is MineDoubt over this statement is arising because the reader is contemplating on it by considering the notion that 'I am this body'. To understand this statement one has to differentiate himself from the body. The word 'Nothing' here implies body, mind and intellect. By assuming this false relationship with body we get bonded to the entire world because body is just a small sample of this world. So those who don't want this bondage anymore the above statement is for them.To differentiate oneself from body the most important thing is to give importance to the fact that we (Self) never changes and the body never ceases to change. You say that I was kid. Then I was a young guy. Now I am an old man. The body has always changed. But has it changed suddenly after a gap of every 25 years? No. So has it changed after every 1 year? No. So has it changed after every 1 month? No. So has it changed after every week? (i.e. every week it willremain as it is and then it will change after the given period) No. So has it changed after every 1 day? No. So has it changed after 1 hour? No. So has it changed after every 1 minute? No. The truth is that it is changing every second.It takes time to read and think over it but it does not take any time for changing.Now a big question arises. Who knows this change? It certainly cannot be body because it is the subject itself. So does mind and intellect know that change? No. Because like body they are also a subject which can be perceived, which can be known. We all know that the thoughts which used to occupy our mind in adolescent stage no longer come to our mind today. Similarly our decisions have also changed. Ignorant, intelligent, remembering, forgetting etc. are different stages of intellect. But one who can perceive these different stages ofintellect is beyond it.Similarly we can also differentiate our Self from ego i.e. I. Try to observe these 4 things. When you say 'I am, You are, This is and That is' so all these 4 things can be seen under some light (knowledge). That light is our Swaroop(Self). In that there is no difference of I, you etc. So The Self is Gyan Swaroop.The Self is Immortal.As stated above, our existence is not because of this body. Even when the body was not present we were there and even if the body will not be alive we will exist (Gita 2:11). We see the body first and then we look at our Self. This is the biggest mistake. Because the Self comes first and body comes later. Till now we have taken millions of births and all the bodies have left us. So what's going to be so new about this body? Will it stay with you? Or will you stay withit? Saints have said 'Sapana ho javasi Sut Kutumb Dhan Dhaam' - Family, Money and House will merely be a dream. In fact you even remember a dream but will you remember all those things which you are now claiming as I and mine? If there is some custom for remembering it then do you remember that in last life to which body you referred to as I, to which person, house etc. you addressed him/her as mine? If not then are you going to remember those things/persons that you are now claiming to be as I/mine? Then why get attached to them and claim them as mine?Swamiji has explained all the above topics beautifully in Sadhak-Sanjivani in Hindi. Please refer to pages -57-59, 65 - (Gita 2:13) - Our existence is not because of this body850 - (Gita 13:8) - Stages of ego getting destroyed in spiritual practice851 - (Gita 13:8) 'I, you, this, that'865, 866 - (Gita 13:8) The example of 'students sitting one behind each other in an exam' is just amazingI have given page numbers as per Hindi version.Hare Krishna,Varun(Varun Paprunia)Shree HariRam RamFrom Moderator : For those with English version, you make look up the specificShloka. For those who understand Hindi the entire Sadhak Sanjivani is onlineat:http://www.swamiramsukhdasji.org/swamijibooks/pustak/pustak1/html/SadhakSanjeevn\i/main.htmlRam Ram---Vijayji,Here is something to ponder:Among the worlds mystical tradition it is known that to become one with The Divine, one has to:Die to ones (lower)self,(ego mind); Death of ego; Annihilation (Fana), different ways of expressing the same concept. One famous lady was taught by by her Guru, an Indian Sufi Saint, "there is nothing but nothingness", when she found THAT nothingness, she was at one with her then dead Guru and her GOD.B.G. 15.11. The yogis striving (for perfection) behold him dwelling in the Self; but, the unrefined and unintelligent, even Though striving, see him not.Sacred books and wise council at this site, can point one in the right direction. I am not sure where flashy cars, a fine physique, and worldly status can point you.To the question, '..then how will the world work?'. There is a Zen saying "Before enlightenment, chop wood, carry water. After enlightenment, chop wood, carry water".And surely the people who offer sustenance to holy people, do it because they have reverence for them! An act of Divine Love.With Respect and Divine Love,Mike(Mike Keenor)

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Narayan Narayan,May you attain salvationYou have not created this world, it's functioning is not your responsibility. This world is perishing every moment, in that you have no control. Why are you unnecessarily and uselessly troubled by these things? You have not understood the inner sentiments of Swamiji's points. He who does not understand properly, he becomes a master of half and incomplete knowledge. He who, in spite of knowing, if he does not give up (sacrifice) the unreal (perishing, temporary), that is one of the greatest losses.R. C VyasHari OmRe Nothing is MineI fully agree with Pratapji Bhatt. Swamiji never asked anyone to leave the house or relationships etc. Change is needed inside by way of acceptance of truth ! Change is needed at "assumption level" - not in outer conduct/behaviour. We are sufferring because of wrong assumptions. We are confused because we have not accepted the truth inside our heart.What is the truth? Truth is that- NOTHING IS MINE !What is "mine"? A thing/body can be stated to be "mine" if we have independent control over it; if it is born with us only and remains always with us, and when we are not there it departs with us only. ( If a thing is "mine" then what is it doing here in this world after I am dead? It is "mine" - how then it can be of others?) Then only it can be ours - or there is any other way of something being ours? ( Vijayji please deliberate here- Come On! ) A thing which meets us andlater departs - how can that thing be ours? How can any sane mind call that thing to be ours, which from the very moment of connection with you is disconnecting from you? (Vijayji- can you give any examples of any thing which has different characteristics? Please enlighten!)If body is "yours" , then don't allow it to fall sick. Let it never grow old! At least don't allow it to die ! ! Can you ensure that ? ( Vijayji -can you ensure that ?) If you cannot, then how can you assume it is yours ? Is body coming nearer to you every passing second or going away from you every moment ? How it is yours if it is going away from you every second ?What is dishonesty? You are called "dishonest", if you claim something to be yours while in fact it is not yours. Is there any other way in which dishonesty can be defined? If we call this body, these worldly things, etc to be ours then - are we honest or dishonest ? ? Deliberate Vijayji here on these points! Come on ! ! Consider these written words as blog only !What is reality? The fact is that this body, mind, intellect, ego, these worldly things, situations, status, wealth, health, affluence, relatives - all - everything which changes- everything except Paramatma / Self/ Conscience :-1 They are not yours !2 They are not for you also!3 They have been given to you for a predetermined time !4.They shall be taken back from you !Now ponder upon the above discussion. Ask as many questions as you can. Argue till you don't get convinced or till you don't convince me - on the aforesaid acts. Then we shall resume tomorrow, further in the matter.Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B-There is need to understand that there are two identities in the question below. nfortunately, we refuse to distinguish between these two identities. These are he 'mind' and the 'body'. Having understood this basic issue, it is easy to ind an answer."Nothing is mine, I need nothing, I have no relationship" are all a function of he mind. When Gitaji says these words, it is to highlight that there should be to attachment with the world.Doing things in the world are a function of body. When Gitaji says these words, it is to highlight that 'Kartavya Karma' should continue to be performed.I hope this will help Vijayji find an answer.A.H.Dalmia-Ram Ram,Vijayji has asked good question. However, one thing needs to be understood that this world is created by Krishna and is run by divine mother with the wishes of the supreme God (Shri Krishna) as it is his leela. Therefore, Shri Krishna very well knows that if all people follow his principles, there would not be any universe. As long as the world exists there will be beings which would not follow these principles. But what we need to focus upon is to follow hisprinciples in the Gita instead of worrying about what happens if all follows. That is Shri Krishna's problem not our problem. Ram RamSudhir Kalra-I agree with the question, understand it too but the problem lies in implementing it fully. Yes fully, at times I do so and when I do so, I feel happy, away from the tensions and sorrows of the world. But don't know how I miss the track and again I fall in the well of ignorance. This cycle goes on and on. I have used the word 'implement', actually it's wrong, every thing happens on itself. But since the situation is not permanent though I don't have any doubts, I have used this word.Goenka-On a personal note, when I started to read Bhagwat Gita, the question in mind was whether I become Sanyasi and abondon many of actvities but it was in fact an explanation of WORK and worshipping Sri Krishna only by WORK. By not possessiveness, WORK becomes more objective and transparent and income level rises. The money or increased ability is not interference but a resource like water or earth which is in hand of NISHKAAM KARMI.In the Bhagwat Gita, I learnt 'updrishta anumanta ch... ' and this is enough of my conviction and most practical. Slowly, I got understanding of more words and ideas. So, the question oflivelihood, and success and excellence are not opposed to renunciation or Sannyaas.RegardsK G(Krishna Gopal)-------------------------------In response to Vijayi's question, my humble attempts to offer a few thoughts,So often in life, we are not able to hold onto various assets. Money isn't there for a car payment, the car is repossessed. No moeny for apartment rent, one has to go and stay with arelative, something is stolen, as a wallet etc. One who truly knows, is not disturbed. He is equipoised, as the understanding that "these things are not mine" has become realized knowledge. The awareness that, try as we may, we are not the ultimate controller of all that happens, is a very high level of understanding. We should also know, that if in our heart the desire has awakened to be detached from worldly things, and develop that intimate, lovingrelationship with God, then the Lord in the heart will hear that desire. Being a renunciate doesn't necessarily entail living the life of a wandering mendicant with no possessions....it means to understand that nothing is this world is truly ours. "Ours" is only the desire to serve the Lord, or serve our own whims. Whatever has been put into our care, use it as much as possible to glorify and serve the Lord, whether it is our children,wealth, our home, our intelligence....whatever we have should be used to serve Sri Krsna (or however we call the Lord)The sadhak lives on two levels, one is the internal understanding, that nothing is mine, save and except the desire to serve the Lord, and then the external awareness, according to one's place and status in life. The internal awareness, if truly on the level of realization (jnana) will constantly manifest in external dealings, for instance, if one is externally somewhat well-off, with a little money in the pocket, and a beggar comes, needing some food, one who is fullyaware of his own "non-ownership" will be quite willing to give in charity, if able, whereas one who thinks, "this is mine, I worked hard for it" will not so willingly give.my dear Vijayji, truly, without putting our relationship with the Lord first, our lives are wasted. Those who have dedicated their lives to helping give this knowledge, of simple living, high thinking, of making the Lord the center of our worship rather than our own bodies and minds, they are providing the greatest service to humanity. Can we have even the basic needsof a human being, such as food grains and water, without the mercy of the Lord? No.Whatever we have is His mercy and kindness, and we should constantly be striving to re-awaken our relationship with Him. That is gratitude, not that we take food, clothing, sunlight, etc....and ignore that Person who is giving us these things.Hoping my words have not offended anyone,Mahalaksmi Dasi

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Shree HariRam RamFROM MODERATOR:Dear Divine Sadhaks,Vijayji has posed a wonderful question that will benefit many of us !Question: If everybody follows "Nothing Is Mine" and "I Do not need anything" and specially "I do not have any relationship with anybody" then how will the world work? The saints are able to do sainthood because there are people who pay for them. Do you have a blog or area where people can discuss these thoughts? Vijay Aggraval I appeal / encourage you all to not be passive by-standers, but to step up to the challenge of the question being asked. Let us all take this divine opportunity, to carefully and attentively review the message from Swamiji, the question and the responses so far. If there is any doubts, to bring it forward to the group. I encourage Vijayji, Simiji and all others that have expressed concern on similar or related topics in the past; to name a few - Madan Gupta, Anilji Bhanot, Vavamenonji, and any others to deliberate / respond with your very brief answers. Vijayji, since we do not have a blog at this time, you may react from time to time more actively, by asking counter questions, feeling free to participate in full, to gain clarification of any doubts that you may have related to the topic being discussed.We shall allow maximum time span for this question until doubts of sadhaks are clarified. In fact, there will be no new questions posted till this question has reached to a logical conclusion. I therefore expect that all sadhaks will be fully engaged in this discussion. Such questions / answers can be transforming.Thank you all for this Jnana ganga !From Gita Talk ModeratorRam Ram--Hari OmThe apprehension as to whether the world will work or not denotes a presumption that the entire world is "driven by desires" only. There can not be any desireless actions at all and if the desireless actions are resorted to by anybody, the world comes to a grinding halt - at least for that body ! Too over confident an observation indeed !The observation reg the Saints is too bad - unbelievably bad. Who can pay for Saints? No body can ever pay for them or repay them for what they give to humanity at large. Judgement cannot be passed if there is a question/doubt.Even without face to face interaction, the subject can be discussed and grasped - if we utilise our power "to accept/believe" and "to know" correctly. You know that you have these powers. Hence kindly now position yourself with an open, receptive, comprehending, willing, ready to understand, logical, rationale, scientific, patient, serious and impartial (equanimous) mind set and follow what all sadhaks respond pursuant to your question. I will too contribute from time to time.You of course will have ample opportunities of expressing your views, of counter arguing , etc. You may even respond against each and every observation given by various Sadhaks of this Gita Talk Group. We shall definitely make an effort to convince you - by sheer power ofthe truth !If you are ready and have power of belief in you, then first believe that in such deliberations ultimately the truth prevails. You will have to be patient, though. Believe me, your question otherwise is excellent and will help many. The answers will be eye openers.Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N BDear Sadhus, Master!If one takes the literal meaning of "nothing is mine" or "I don't have any relationship with anybody", it will sound confusing. However, these statements asks us to develop and live with such inner attitude when dealing with world. Obviously we all are interdependent on one another, rather, this entire universe works as though it is one system. We all need the basic minimum, like food, shelter, clothing, and may be few others for survival. As can be seen, these require us to function harmoniously in society.What happens is that we get attached to "me" and mineness becomes so real, so important to us that we forget our interdependencies, duties, righteousness etc and end up developing greed, envy, jealousy and other negative emotions. This leads us to suffering. Swamiji's message below is very clear: In order to free ourselves from suffering, we need to be detached from the things of the world. As made by God, we are complete in ourselves inwardly, we just needto realize it by our inner attitude suggested here. To do so would require me to live and deal with world with an inner attitude as if nothing is mine. When established firmly in this attitude, I will realize the truth of other statements of Swamiji: "I have no relationship with anyone", "I don't need anything", "Only God is mine"One doesn't need to avoid or escape from the world or things of the world which will clearly indicate aversions same as attachments and continuation of suffering. However, one sees God in all(God is mine in this sense), is filled with only love, compassion and serves all.After all when God takes care of such a one as promised in Gita 9:22, (.....Yoga kshemam vahamyaham), He does it through people and nature. Such a one, while not selfishly related to anyone, is truly related to all as if they are one. In summary, Swamiji asks us that while outwardly being interdependent, be unattached and not depend on anyone or anything inwardly for our own comforts, and happiness. This is because in doing so, we will be inevitably unhappy due to changing nature of world. In this way when we are detached, we will be objective and have a right perspective for things of the world.Namaskar....Pratap(Pratap Bhatt)Dear VijayjiBhagwat Gita in chapter 16 says that people have either a tendency of liberation or bondage. These natural defense traits are called DAIVY and AASURI sampada. DAIVY sampada is about PARITTYAG. This means, not leaving or abondoning anything but retaining the freewill so thatthings do not become addiction and one is aware of self nature of free-will. This retaining of free will is called PARITTAAG. For example, a man becomes vegeterian or non-smoker or sugar free or non- competitive not because non-vegeterian food, smoking or sugar orcompetitive mentality are bad or good; but the particular man has now discovered his own nature and these consumptions are slowly becoming irrelevant.Consumption is two types. One, personal and two, impersonal. When one is hungry and eats something alone, this is personal. But if one does not eat and offers food to his hungry wife or hungry children or employees to save their lives first, this consumption is indirect orimpersonal. Sri Krishna says that He at one stage is BHOKTA (consumer) but not directly. And when people eat food, or have peace and love, this consumption is like happiness of great grand father in joint family who consum es all happiness by watching a large happyfamily, united. This state of mind of impersonal consumer is Sri Krishna. So Sri Krishna is a consumer (BHOKTA) but not directly. In another sloka in Bhagwat Gita, Sri Krishna says His devout to serve all living being (SARVA BHOOT RATE HITAH) because it tastes muchbetter if consumption is indirect. Sri Krishna is called GOVIND and GOPTA just for same reasoning. He is secret commission agent for whatever exchanges takes place in livingbeing. By consuming a sample of exchanges, He gets to know level of impersonal consumption. Therefore, Krishna bhakt have no ill feeling towards one another because a part of this feeling like poison goes to Sri Krishna who is a GOPTA or GOVIND or commission agent orintermediary of exchanges.RegardsKrishna GopalSomehow I agree with you Mr Vijay!Simi S.Jai Shri Krishna, Sadhak Vijayji appears to be confused and somewhat scared of accepting simple and logical steps suggested by Swamiji for fulfillment of the very objective for which the human life has been given. I will surely contribute in the deliberations but before that I am reminded of a short story which I want to share with Sadhaks.There was a married couple residing together for 6-7 years.One evening wife said to the husband - Look I am fed up now with you. I am not happy with the care which you are taking of me. Last month you promised a Jhumka (jewellery) for me, but you never bought it for me. I am not enjoying your company anymore. I have selected anew companion for me who will take me away with him tomorrow morning at 8 AM. Till tomorrow morning I am yours and thereafter, Good Bye! We have met in this life, please do not meet me again here or in the heavens.Husband was stunned. He pleaded, said he would get two Jhumkas instead of one and a good dress as well. He said - Please don't leave me. How the neighbors, the society will look toward me and see me? Please! I am sorry.But wife was adamant. He tried his level best to convince her but could not succeed. It was 11 pm in the winter night. They were living in a small village with 100/150 houses. Suddenly husband went on the roof top of the house and started calling - Villagers... VillagersPls come and gather around now. 15/20 people came and asked him as to the matter.Husband said- I have decided to divorce my wife. Villagers pls note.Now wife kept on uttering - I left, I left I left him first - but no one heard her.The villagers asked- any other thing. Husband said - No Thank you, I just wanted to keep you all posted. You may go now.When he returned to the bed room from the roof top, wife told - you are a very bad person, a liar - I left you and you told villagers that you left me ! Explain !Husband said - Look I tried to convince you a lot, but you did not agree. Then why I should lower my moustache ! ! ! Before you leave me, I have left you !So Vijayji - why we should lower our moustache ? Before this world, these relatives, this body, this money, this wealth, this health, this affluence, this status, this power, these rights, this beauty, this youth, these abilities, this position, these circumstances, these situations, these thoughts, etc leave us, why we should not leave them? Are they not leaving us? Has not your childhood left you? Is not your body continuously leaving you? If you have to be with aparticular relative for 30 years and you have lived with him / her already for 1 year, has not he/she gone away already by that one year? Is not that relationship drifting every second away from you?What are you waiting for ? Who has asked you to leave them ? But can't you even accept the simple fact that they are not yours? Are they not leaving you continuously ? Any doubt on that ? What is wrong in accepting a fact of life ? Can you deny this fact?So think Vijayji. Why you should lower your moustache ? She is going to leave you most certainly. Definitely. Why don't you leave her? Narayana NarayanaRajendra J Bohra--------------------------------Hari OmRe NOTHING IS MINEAt the outset I must state that there is no need for you, Vijayji, to worry excessively for the world. You have expressed rather too much of a worry for the world. Believe me, the world is not going to turn upside down, or come to a grinding halt, if you accept any or all of the suggestions contained in the Article referred by you ! ! ! On the contrary it shall become far far better for you ! It is too big a world to worry. An individual like you or me is too too smallto worry for it.There are systems and procedures, laws , which govern the workings of the world and the activities of each and every creature of this world. When our kindselves were not there in this world say 100 years before, then also this world was working and whenwe shall be consigned to the flames say after maximum 100 years , then also the world will remain. We therefore should worry about our salvation, our interests, our goal rather than taking the onerous responsibility of wondering as to how the world will work if we follow " Nothing is Mine" etc. or what shall be the fate if everybody starts doing desireless actions or start saying- Nothing is Mine.Your job is to find out first whether the statement is correct or not ! Let the world go how it is going so far. Reasonable ?.Saints have said:-Tere Baave Jo kare Bhalo Buro Sansaar, Narain tu Baith ke Apna Bhuvan Buhaar(You damn care what the world is doing – Good or Bad. You should concentrate on cleaning your own house)Hence you should concentrate on what is your responsibility, your duty, your role, your liability, your goal, your betterment, your improvement, your interest, your benefit, your development ! I let you think that way. You may ask me why I have stated so, when nothingis "yours". I know you will not ask it. You have understood. Anything illogical so far? Any thing which is confusing ? Anything which is unclear?Feel free to first deliberate upon the aforesaid. Then we shall move to the first acceptance – NOTHING IS MINE . Kindly be free, open, and active in deliberations. Be assured that in such deliberations in the end only the TRUTH PREVAILS ! Have that belief in you !Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B

 

It is so confusing.If everybody follows "Nothing Is Mine" and "I Do not need anything" and specially "I do not have any relationship with anybody" then how will the world work? The saints are able to do sainthood because there are people who pay for them. Do you have a blog or area where people can discuss these thoughts?ThanksVijay Aggraval-------------------On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 10:39 AM, sadhak_insight<sadhak_insight wrote:2nd July, 2008, WednesdayAashaad Krishna Chaturdashi, Vikram Samvat 2065, BudhvarEvery human being is completely independent, powerful, capable and eligible in his salvation (kalyaan). The reason is that when God gives human body to jeeva (embodied soul), he also gives to him the independence, power, capability and eligibility for his salvation(kalyaan).Now the question arises, what one should do for the same? The answer is that if a person firmly accepts the following four things then his kalyaan is certain :-1. Nothing is Mine.2. I do not need anything.3. I do not have any relationship with anybody.4. Only God is my own.The fundamental fault is to assume "mineness" with the temporary worldly things. From this fault alone all other faults arise. In fact in this entire universe not even a thing like hair is ours.Thereforth as soon as we accept "nothing is mine" - there comes faultlessness in us and we instantly become "dharmatma" (a pure holy soul).When nothing is ours, then what is there to desire? Hence as soon we accept- "I do not need anything", we become "nishkaam" (desireless) and henceforth a "Yogi" as you acquire equanimity. - "samatvam yog uchyate" (Gita 2: 48)The essential self (svaroop) of every human being is "asang" (naturally detached). Therefore as soon as we decline to accept any relationship with any body or any thing that comes together and later departs, we realise our self proven, obvious disassociation or detachment. And as soon as we realise our obvious detachment, we become "jnani" (knowledgeable).We are essentially a part of God - Gita 15:7. Hence only God is ours. Nobody else is ours. As soon as we accept our mine-ness with God, we become "Bhakta"(devotee of God).A human being's kalyaan (salvation) is only vested in his being Dharmatma Yogi (pure holy soul, with equanimity and free of all desires), in being Detached and in being a Devotee of God.Therefore it is a spiritual aspirant's duty that he accept these four worthy facts with a firm conviction. Then his salvation is definite.From "Maanav Matra ke kalyaan ke liye" in Hindi pg 69/70, by SwamiRamsukhdasjiRam Ram