Why the Defeatism ? Why Bother About a Certainty ? Why the Attention ?

[Guest guest]

I dont understand this defeatism. Yea Death is certain. So What ? why

bother about a certainty. What can you or anyone else do about death.

Why should we die much before the appointed day, everyday fearing

death.

 

The certainty of death does not extoll us to virtues; nor does it

deserve any more attention than the fact of our breathing. It is a

reflex. It is a process none of us can do anything about. Let us

forget it.

 

Let us concentrate on the living. The PRESENT AND NOW is more

important and what I can do to further this present and now for my

fellow beings is definitely more important to me.

 

Siva Raman

-

 

:Shree Hari:

 

9th August, 2008, Saturday

Shraavan Shukla Ashthami, Vikram Samvat 2065, Shanivar

 

Caution !

 

All resources for the dying are ready. The coffin is ready, no new

one has to be prepared. The pall bearers are also ready. No new

ones need to be born. The cremation ground is also ready, no new

place needs to be acquired. The firewood for the cremation is also

ready, no new trees need to be planted. The delay is only in the

stopping of the breath. The moment this breath stops, all these

materials will come together and be mobilized. Then what room is

there for complacency ?

 

Caution! Become Alert ! This world is not for you to stay

permanently. This place is only for those you are dying and only

for those in the process of dying. Then how are you comfortably spreading your

legs out and smuggly occupying this space, remaining self-satisfied ?

 

Think ! Will these days always remain the same forever ?

 

You are building a house here, decorating it here, hoarding things

here, but you yourself are running towards death ! Wherever you are

going, first make that ultimate destination a good place !

 

Even a train that is scheduled to depart at a fixed time, is

attentive to timing, then what to speak of this train symbolizing

death which does not have a fixed departure time, for that, there

should be alertness and cautiousness at all times.

 

" We will do " - this is not a certainty, but " we will die " - that is

an absolute certainty.

 

You do not see God, but God is seeing and watching you, all the time.

 

It is a rule that the incoming one, is the outgoing one.

 

In the fire of death, everything is burning away at all times. Then

who should we trust? Who should we desire?

 

Think careful, who is our own? If today death arrives, then will

anybody be able to help us ?

 

On birthdays we have a celebration, saying we are now these many

years old ! In reality, we are not that many years older, rather,

we have died that many years, in other words, from our total number

of years, that many years have come off, and death has come closer.

 

When a boy is born, whether he will grow into an adult or not,

whether he will get educated or not, whether he will get married or

not, whether he will have a family or not, whether he will have

wealth or not, in all these matters there is doubt; but whether he

will die or not, in this there is no doubt.

 

From " Drops of Nectar " in English pg 26 by Swami Ramsukhdasji

 

Ram Ram

 

 

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is unclear for distribution or not directly related to the question

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12. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth,

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Sanskrit words, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit

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13. Any personal remarks over the knowledge of any sadhak or about

the

stage at which any sadhak is standing in his quest / sadhna /

spiritual journey - must not be included in your posting.''

 

14. There should not be any sarcasm towards fellow sadhaks in this

spiritual learning and sharing.

 

 

MODERATOR

Ram Ram

 

--

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[Guest guest]

QUESTION:

 

I dont understand this defeatism. Yea Death is certain. So What ?

why bother about a certainty. What can you or anyone else do about

death. Why should we die much before the appointed day, everyday

fearing death.

 

The certainty of death does not extoll us to virtues; nor does it

deserve any more attention than the fact of our breathing. It is a

reflex. It is a process none of us can do anything about. Let us

forget it.

 

Let us concentrate on the living. The PRESENT AND NOW is more

important and what I can do to further this present and now for my

fellow beings is definitely more important to me.

 

Siva Raman

-

 

Hari Om

 

There certainly is no need to bother about a certainty. Nor does the

extract from short points on the subject message under reference is

in any manner attempting to impart a fear in the readers.

 

This article in fact by giving example of death is indicating to the

readers the importance of human form of life and the importance of

what ever time is left in this life.

 

While majority of what is written by Siva Ramanji is accurate, other

than the conclusions drawn by him, as the context of the article

remained to be fully grasped by him. For that matter even each and

every word written in the message of Swamiji also is right and this

message takes divine shape the moment we grasp/ understand the

context. There is no defeatism advocated in the article. In fact it

should be taken as a reminder of the importance of balance time

available with a human being.

 

It must be understood that this human life is considered to be very

precious and very very rare in the Scriptures not because of any

speciality of form or sharp intellect or a fertile mind, or

existence of ego, or beauty or size etc., but because of existence of

" Conscience " in every human being - which particular element is not

existing in any other form of life. Even in Devatas (demi gods)

though Conscience exists but since those life forms are for

enjoyment only - it remains in dormant form. In the entire universe

only human beings therefore can take benefit of Conscience. This

Article can also be read as reminder or process of awakening of that

Conscience in the readers.

 

It also must be understood that human life is neither meant for

enjoyment, nor suffering, nor mix of both - it is not a bhog

(consumption) yoni (form of life) , it is Yog Yoni (form of life to

rise above - to realize Paramatma) and time available is most

crucial for each one of us.

 

It is only in Human life you can make efforts to realise Paramatma -

I repeat human life is the only form of life in which you can

realise Him. Hence one cannot wholly agree with your statement

that " death does not deserve any attention than the fact of our

breathing " . If the student sitting in the examination hall forgets

about total hours available with him to write his answers or becomes

careless about the time available with him - he can hardly secure

good marks.

 

Since you cannot do anything about death as rightly stated by Siva

Ramanji- it is all the more important for each of us to realise the

importance of balance time left with us.

 

This article definitely criticises those human beings who are too

indulged blindly in worldly enjoyments and feel that they will be

able to live for ever and will get human life again as easily as

they think they have received human life this time - and who do not

understand the preciousness, rarity and importance of human life..

 

Yes " Now and Present " are quite important in human life as stated by

Siva Ramanji. This article also believes in that and therefore -

Caution. It cautions us to make best use of " Now and Present " so

that the goal of human life can be achieved -and so that before

death of this body, this human life form arrives you have achieved

the real goal of this life form. .

 

Where then the question of imparting fear or dying much before the

actual death arises? To tell some body to respect the time available

is not at all improper. Rather it is kindness of the highest level.

 

Hope I have clarified the context of the Article under reference.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

--

 

Death is called MRIT and death of death is called A-MRIT. After

reaching truth, death does not exist, and thus, no fear, and no

separation. Desires and unfulfilled expectation cause fear, and with

getting rid of desires, one can transcend death. Sri Krishna says to

Arjun who is Kshatriya that if he gets success in war, he gets A-

MRIT (status of Brahman), and if he does not, he gets SWARG.

 

A man in hospital is like all of us. Given best of the

hospitalization, he/she does not want it. He does not want either

to eat good food, nor to rest all day, because of fear of death.

He/she prefers to walk bare foot, and doing what he/she likes. So,

what do all of us want? Death is our creation and by choice, it is

not natural. More we will fear from it, more it comes closer.

Regards

K G

(Krishna Gopal)

-

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

Swamiji's points are not emphasizing " Death " and it's certainty, as

much as, it is emphasizing that one must become Alert ! become

Cautious ! It is about not becoming complacent ! His emphasis is

on not wasting time on the perishable and temporary things. His

emphasis is on not waiting until the gas tank is completely empty.

His empahsis is on not waiting until our station as arrived in this

journey.... It is certainly not about instilling fear, there is no

mention of it. There is no aspect of it which indicates defeatism...

only Alertness and Caution !!! Caution at all times !!!

 

The points brought out are giving us all the materials, the tools to

become alert, to act quickly and become free from death and fear

once and for all. To no longer be stuck in defeatism or

complacency. It is to act, utilize this rare human birth, the only

form of birth where liberation is possible and to once and for all

complete the work for which we have come here.

 

Tulsidasji has said -

" So parat dukh pavayi sir dhuni dhinu pachitaayi

kaalahi karmahi Ishavahi mithyaa dosh lagaayi. " (Uttarkand. 43)

 

He who does not attain salvation will later on have deep regrets. He

will falsely blame and wrongly accuse - time (kaal, death), his

activities and work and even God. What will he gain by doing so ? By

simply blaming nothing will be attained.

 

Therefore as long as there is lifeforce in this body, as long as we

have some rights over this body, as long as there is consciousness,

as long as there is no major illness that has sieged this body from

all sides, as long as old age has not sieged it, we must complete

our work. This is an immense opportunity to uplift our selves as

Gitaji says, as Swamiji says.. where do you see defeatism ? In fact

it is bringing out God's compassion and mercy to have blessed us all

with this rare opportunity - human life. Truly I see this message

is about attaining eternal life once and for all ! not about death

and it's fear !

 

Meera Das

-

 

>

> :Shree Hari:

>

> 9th August, 2008, Saturday

> Shraavan Shukla Ashthami, Vikram Samvat 2065, Shanivar

>

> Caution !

>

> All resources for the dying are ready. The coffin is ready, no new

> one has to be prepared. The pall bearers are also ready. No new

> ones need to be born. The cremation ground is also ready, no new

> place needs to be acquired. The firewood for the cremation is also

> ready, no new trees need to be planted. The delay is only in the

> stopping of the breath. The moment this breath stops, all these

> materials will come together and be mobilized. Then what room is

> there for complacency ?

>

> Caution! Become Alert ! This world is not for you to stay

> permanently. This place is only for those you are dying and only

> for those in the process of dying. Then how are you comfortably

spreading your legs out and smuggly occupying this space, remaining

self-satisfied ?

>

> Think ! Will these days always remain the same forever ?

>

> You are building a house here, decorating it here, hoarding things

> here, but you yourself are running towards death ! Wherever you

are

> going, first make that ultimate destination a good place !

>

> Even a train that is scheduled to depart at a fixed time, is

> attentive to timing, then what to speak of this train symbolizing

> death which does not have a fixed departure time, for that, there

> should be alertness and cautiousness at all times.

>

> " We will do " - this is not a certainty, but " we will die " - that

is

> an absolute certainty.

>

> You do not see God, but God is seeing and watching you, all the

time.

>

> It is a rule that the incoming one, is the outgoing one.

>

> In the fire of death, everything is burning away at all times.

Then

> who should we trust? Who should we desire?

>

> Think careful, who is our own? If today death arrives, then will

> anybody be able to help us ?

>

> On birthdays we have a celebration, saying we are now these many

> years old ! In reality, we are not that many years older, rather,

> we have died that many years, in other words, from our total number

> of years, that many years have come off, and death has come closer.

>

> When a boy is born, whether he will grow into an adult or not,

> whether he will get educated or not, whether he will get married or

> not, whether he will have a family or not, whether he will have

> wealth or not, in all these matters there is doubt; but whether he

> will die or not, in this there is no doubt.

>

> From " Drops of Nectar " in English pg 26 by Swami Ramsukhdasji

>

> Ram Ram

>

>

> GUIDELINES FOR POSTING A RESPONSE:

>

> 1. The group is focused on the Holy Gitaji, therefore, only

> responses which further clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will

be

> posted.

>

> 2. Making reference of Gitaji shloka is highly encouraged - at

least

> once in the response. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or

> other scriptures to substantiate your response.

>

> 3. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting

> sadhaka's time. Under no circustance the answer should exceed say

> one (book) page at the most (500 words or so) 3-4 paragraphs.

>

> 4. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the

> extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas

>

> 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only.

>

> 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other

> organizations.

>

> 7. Complete reproduction of texts from any book is strongly

> discouraged, however references may be made of the book or author

> (but not links to other sites).

>

> 8. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone

> number, address etc.

>

> 9. Please do not address the response to a particular individual

> since the message is going to the entire group.

>

> 10. Due to the large readership, only those responses will be

posted

> which are in line with the general philosophy of taking Shrimad

> Bhagavad Gita as the reference.

>

> 11. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if content

> is unclear for distribution or not directly related to the question

> being asked.

>

> 12. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth,

> westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use of only

> Sanskrit words, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit

> bracketed wherever possible.

>

> 13. Any personal remarks over the knowledge of any sadhak or about

> the

> stage at which any sadhak is standing in his quest / sadhna /

> spiritual journey - must not be included in your posting.''

>

> 14. There should not be any sarcasm towards fellow sadhaks in this

> spiritual learning and sharing.

>

>

> MODERATOR

> Ram Ram

>

> -

-

> Send blank email to:

> Subscribe: -

> Un: -

>

[Guest guest]

QUESTION:

Death is certain. So What ? Why bother about a certainty? What can

you or anyone else do about death? Why should we die much before the

appointed day, everyday fearing death? Why defeatism? Siva Raman

--

 

The questions and the assertations associated that fear of death is

a propoaganda and actually anti-living is a very valid doubt one

could raise at first thought. Is it so?

 

If fear of death is a propaganda … What propaganda triggered the cry

in a baby under pain at its exposure to the world? What propaganda

makes it cry under hunger? What propaganda makes a child cry when

ignored? What propoganda makes a child jealous when another child

gets attention?

 

Let us also question what do we mean by " Let us concentrate on the

living. The PRESENT AND NOW is more important and what I can do to

further this present and now for my fellow beings is definitely more

important to me. "

 

Let us ask ourselves … the so called adults. How often do we urge to

gain hold of something to be happy? How often do we pester ourselves

(and others) to hold things and relations? How often we believe that

our happiness is rooted in the objects and relations we hold? How

often we fear that we may loose hold of these objects and relations?

How often we have lost hold of them and have lamented? How often we

remind ourselves with memories – good and bad? How often we

entertain ourselves with imaginations – goor and bad? How often do

we anticipate results from our actions? How often are we

dissatisfied with the results? How often have we turned ourselves

into fear of uncertainty when we invest our money in stocks, land,

gold, etc.? Have we felt miserable when our beloved ones are hurt?

Have we felt elated when our beloved ones excel in their lives? Have

felt hurt when our beloved ones ignore us or insult us or ill-treat

us? … Have we felt anxious about our success in our jobs? … in our

relations? … in our pocessions?

 

If the answer is yes to any one of these questions … my dear friend

… we are NOT LIVING IN THE PRESENT! We ARE infested with the fear of

death within. That is the unfortunate truth with most of us.

 

YES … all the spiritual wisdom tries to teach us the same thing –

the death is a reflex and does not deserve any more attention than

the fact of our breathing. But if we have answered " yes " to any of

the above queries, we certainly have not forgotten it my dear

friend. If have not forgotten it … better address it. One cannot run

away from a problem just because one cannot face it. Infact, all the

fears are rooted in this escapism which is the actual defeatism. The

fears swarm the escapist because the escapist has never attempted to

examine the nature of the fears, to develop antidotes for the fears,

to reduce the pain of the fears … and most importantly, to remove

the fears at their roots. The fear of death is the root for all

other fears in us that haunts us in terms of thirst, hunger and

ageing making us crave for holding on to objects and relations and

afraid of loosing the hold at the same time.

 

Definitely, the focus of the spiritual seeker is TO LIVE IN

PRESENCE. To attain that state of presence, one should perpetually

reduce wandering in the past and future. To do that, one has to

examine the death, its perceived certainty, and its validity in

real. To do that, one has to become a Nachiketa oneself and enquire

The Death:

 

Swarge loke na bhayam kinchana asti,

na tatra twam na jaraya bibheti |

Ubhe teertwa asahanaya pipaase,

shokatigo modate swargaloke ||

 

O Death! If there is Swarga it should be devoid of all fears because

the happiness cannot establish itself in the presence of fears; and

if there are no fears, your agents such as thirst, hunger and ageing

(and hence you) should be absent. Therefore, let me understand you

properly if they say one can be " fearless " as such.

 

Therefore, I do not see in Swami Ramsukhdasji's comments on the

death. Neither do I see any defeatism there. It is an alert to the

actual defeatists who suffer in life having no clue for its root

causes and who are afraid to enquire into to the true cause for

their pain because it the very questioning demolishes the thresholds

of the beloved beholdings of life. One has to address the certainty

and validity of The Death for NOT BEING A DEFEATIST.

 

Respects.

 

Naga Narayana

--

Pranams. I do not consider Swamiji's message as defeatism. It is

only alerting us to what is finally awaiting us, so that we can

usefully utilise our time before the D-Day to do all the good to all

the people , at all times. The message is very profound and how one

takes it depends on one 's positive or negative outlook.

 

With regards, G.Vaidyanathan.

--

My feeble attempt to respond to Siva Raman's inquiry....I am

concentrating more on the last paragraph, where prabhu explains,

" PRESENT AND NOW is more important and what I can do to further this

present and now for my fellow beings is definitely more important to

me. " ......This statement brings to my mind the question, " Do you

understand how to benefit others? " In the Srimad Bhagavatam, one

epic is given regarding two different groups of sons born to Daksa.

Daksa had been given charge to populate the universe at the

beginning of the universal cycle. Narada Muni, the traveling saint

(who is often known for creating dissention, with the aim of

bringing the Lord's pastimes nearer to everyone's heart) came across

the first group of sons, who were preparing to enter married life.

He spoke with them intently about the purpose of their existence,

which he presented as understanding the need to focus all energy on

a loving relationship with the Lord. The result of associating with

the topmost servant of the Lord, Narada Muni, was that the sons gave

up the desire for married life. No more hankering for children,

household, sensual pleasures of any type, and they prepared

themselves for going back Home to the transcendental world. When

Daksa found out about the effect of Narada's association, he was

furious. He had a second group of sons, and the same exact scenario

took place. These two groups of sons, the Haryasvas and the

Shavalasvas, were indeed very highly elevated souls from birth, or

they wouldn't have been able to assimilate the knowledge they were

given so perfectly, by understanding that human life is rarely

attained, and all energy should be given to realize our eternal form

in loving service to the Supreme. Most of us aren't so

capable.....to so quickly rise above all attachment to this world.

But to think that we can help others have a better life within this

body, with no knowledge of connecting with the Supreme, is a thought

pattern which should be carefully analyzed. How have we really

helped someone, if the miseries of the body, namely birth, old age,

disease, and death, have not been contended with?

 

And, a much more grave question, which may require some thought

to understand....how many persons are happy with their life to the

degree that they could honestly say, " I wouldn't mind living

forever " ? How to attain that state of consciousness where one WANTS

to remain, serving others...which is what we all do irregardless

eternally? To bring persons to the state of consciousness where

they are truly satisfied, so that they could feel this sense, that

being here is an experience which is completely fulfilling...to

understand the concept of serving the Lord first, and thereby

knowing how to serve humanity....this state of mind is the only

state by which any of us would want to escape death, isn't it? How

often do persons stop and consider, how long is FOREVER? Have we

managed to elevate any of our fellow human beings to this level?

 

I humbly thank those who have taken a few minutes to indulge my

queries.

 

Mahalaksmi Dasi

 

 

>

> Hari Om

>

> There certainly is no need to bother about a certainty. Nor does

the

> extract from short points on the subject message under reference

is

> in any manner attempting to impart a fear in the readers.

>

> This article in fact by giving example of death is indicating to

the

> readers the importance of human form of life and the importance of

> what ever time is left in this life.

>

> While majority of what is written by Siva Ramanji is accurate,

other

> than the conclusions drawn by him, as the context of the article

> remained to be fully grasped by him. For that matter even each

and

> every word written in the message of Swamiji also is right and

this

> message takes divine shape the moment we grasp/ understand the

> context. There is no defeatism advocated in the article. In fact

it

> should be taken as a reminder of the importance of balance time

> available with a human being.

>

> It must be understood that this human life is considered to be

very

> precious and very very rare in the Scriptures not because of any

> speciality of form or sharp intellect or a fertile mind, or

> existence of ego, or beauty or size etc., but because of existence

of

> " Conscience " in every human being - which particular element is

not

> existing in any other form of life. Even in Devatas (demi gods)

> though Conscience exists but since those life forms are for

> enjoyment only - it remains in dormant form. In the entire

universe

> only human beings therefore can take benefit of Conscience. This

> Article can also be read as reminder or process of awakening of

that

> Conscience in the readers.

>

> It also must be understood that human life is neither meant for

> enjoyment, nor suffering, nor mix of both - it is not a bhog

> (consumption) yoni (form of life) , it is Yog Yoni (form of life

to

> rise above - to realize Paramatma) and time available is most

> crucial for each one of us.

>

> It is only in Human life you can make efforts to realise

Paramatma -

> I repeat human life is the only form of life in which you can

> realise Him. Hence one cannot wholly agree with your statement

> that " death does not deserve any attention than the fact of our

> breathing " . If the student sitting in the examination hall forgets

> about total hours available with him to write his answers or

becomes

> careless about the time available with him - he can hardly secure

> good marks.

>

> Since you cannot do anything about death as rightly stated by Siva

> Ramanji- it is all the more important for each of us to realise

the

> importance of balance time left with us.

>

> This article definitely criticises those human beings who are too

> indulged blindly in worldly enjoyments and feel that they will be

> able to live for ever and will get human life again as easily as

> they think they have received human life this time - and who do

not

> understand the preciousness, rarity and importance of human life..

>

> Yes " Now and Present " are quite important in human life as stated

by

> Siva Ramanji. This article also believes in that and therefore -

> Caution. It cautions us to make best use of " Now and Present " so

> that the goal of human life can be achieved -and so that before

> death of this body, this human life form arrives you have achieved

> the real goal of this life form. .

>

> Where then the question of imparting fear or dying much before the

> actual death arises? To tell some body to respect the time

available

> is not at all improper. Rather it is kindness of the highest level.

>

> Hope I have clarified the context of the Article under reference.

>

> Jai Shree Krishna

>

> Vyas N B

> -

-

>

> Death is called MRIT and death of death is called A-MRIT. After

> reaching truth, death does not exist, and thus, no fear, and no

> separation. Desires and unfulfilled expectation cause fear, and

with

> getting rid of desires, one can transcend death. Sri Krishna says

to

> Arjun who is Kshatriya that if he gets success in war, he gets A-

> MRIT (status of Brahman), and if he does not, he gets SWARG.

>

> A man in hospital is like all of us. Given best of the

> hospitalization, he/she does not want it. He does not want either

> to eat good food, nor to rest all day, because of fear of death.

> He/she prefers to walk bare foot, and doing what he/she likes. So,

> what do all of us want? Death is our creation and by choice, it is

> not natural. More we will fear from it, more it comes closer.

> Regards

> K G

> (Krishna Gopal)

> -

> Shree Hari

> Ram Ram

>

> Swamiji's points are not emphasizing " Death " and it's certainty,

as

> much as, it is emphasizing that one must become Alert ! become

> Cautious ! It is about not becoming complacent ! His emphasis is

> on not wasting time on the perishable and temporary things. His

> emphasis is on not waiting until the gas tank is completely

empty.

> His empahsis is on not waiting until our station as arrived in

this

> journey.... It is certainly not about instilling fear, there is no

> mention of it. There is no aspect of it which indicates

defeatism...

> only Alertness and Caution !!! Caution at all times !!!

>

> The points brought out are giving us all the materials, the tools

to

> become alert, to act quickly and become free from death and fear

> once and for all. To no longer be stuck in defeatism or

> complacency. It is to act, utilize this rare human birth, the

only

> form of birth where liberation is possible and to once and for all

> complete the work for which we have come here.

>

> Tulsidasji has said -

> " So parat dukh pavayi sir dhuni dhinu pachitaayi

> kaalahi karmahi Ishavahi mithyaa dosh lagaayi. " (Uttarkand. 43)

>

> He who does not attain salvation will later on have deep regrets.

He

> will falsely blame and wrongly accuse - time (kaal, death), his

> activities and work and even God. What will he gain by doing so ?

By

> simply blaming nothing will be attained.

>

> Therefore as long as there is lifeforce in this body, as long as

we

> have some rights over this body, as long as there is

consciousness,

> as long as there is no major illness that has sieged this body

from

> all sides, as long as old age has not sieged it, we must complete

> our work. This is an immense opportunity to uplift our selves as

> Gitaji says, as Swamiji says.. where do you see defeatism ? In

fact

> it is bringing out God's compassion and mercy to have blessed us

all

> with this rare opportunity - human life. Truly I see this message

> is about attaining eternal life once and for all ! not about

death

> and it's fear !

>

> Meera Das

> -

 

>

> >

> > :Shree Hari:

> >

> > 9th August, 2008, Saturday

> > Shraavan Shukla Ashthami, Vikram Samvat 2065, Shanivar

> >

> > Caution !

> >

> > All resources for the dying are ready. The coffin is ready, no

new

> > one has to be prepared. The pall bearers are also ready. No new

> > ones need to be born. The cremation ground is also ready, no new

> > place needs to be acquired. The firewood for the cremation is

also

> > ready, no new trees need to be planted. The delay is only in the

> > stopping of the breath. The moment this breath stops, all these

> > materials will come together and be mobilized. Then what room is

> > there for complacency ?

> >

> > Caution! Become Alert ! This world is not for you to stay

> > permanently. This place is only for those you are dying and only

> > for those in the process of dying. Then how are you comfortably

> spreading your legs out and smuggly occupying this space,

remaining

> self-satisfied ?

> >

> > Think ! Will these days always remain the same forever ?

> >

> > You are building a house here, decorating it here, hoarding

things

> > here, but you yourself are running towards death ! Wherever you

> are

> > going, first make that ultimate destination a good place !

> >

> > Even a train that is scheduled to depart at a fixed time, is

> > attentive to timing, then what to speak of this train symbolizing

> > death which does not have a fixed departure time, for that, there

> > should be alertness and cautiousness at all times.

> >

> > " We will do " - this is not a certainty, but " we will die " -

that

> is

> > an absolute certainty.

> >

> > You do not see God, but God is seeing and watching you, all the

> time.

> >

> > It is a rule that the incoming one, is the outgoing one.

> >

> > In the fire of death, everything is burning away at all times.

> Then

> > who should we trust? Who should we desire?

> >

> > Think careful, who is our own? If today death arrives, then

will

> > anybody be able to help us ?

> >

> > On birthdays we have a celebration, saying we are now these many

> > years old ! In reality, we are not that many years older,

rather,

> > we have died that many years, in other words, from our total

number

> > of years, that many years have come off, and death has come

closer.

> >

> > When a boy is born, whether he will grow into an adult or not,

> > whether he will get educated or not, whether he will get married

or

> > not, whether he will have a family or not, whether he will have

> > wealth or not, in all these matters there is doubt; but whether

he

> > will die or not, in this there is no doubt.

> >

> > From " Drops of Nectar " in English pg 26 by Swami Ramsukhdasji

> >

> > Ram Ram

> > --------------------------------

-

> >

> > GUIDELINES FOR POSTING A RESPONSE:

> >

> > 1. The group is focused on the Holy Gitaji, therefore, only

> > responses which further clarify the understanding of Gitaji,

will

> be

> > posted.

> >

> > 2. Making reference of Gitaji shloka is highly encouraged - at

> least

> > once in the response. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or

> > other scriptures to substantiate your response.

> >

> > 3. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting

> > sadhaka's time. Under no circustance the answer should exceed say

> > one (book) page at the most (500 words or so) 3-4 paragraphs.

> >

> > 4. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the

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> >

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> posted

> > which are in line with the general philosophy of taking Shrimad

> > Bhagavad Gita as the reference.

> >

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content

> > is unclear for distribution or not directly related to the

question

> > being asked.

> >

> > 12. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth,

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> > Sanskrit words, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit

> > bracketed wherever possible.

> >

> > 13. Any personal remarks over the knowledge of any sadhak or

about

> > the

> > stage at which any sadhak is standing in his quest / sadhna /

> > spiritual journey - must not be included in your posting.''

> >

> > 14. There should not be any sarcasm towards fellow sadhaks in

this

> > spiritual learning and sharing.

> >

> >

> > MODERATOR

> > Ram Ram

> >

> > --------------------------------

--

> -

> > Send blank email to:

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> > Un: -

> >

>

[Guest guest]

QUESTION:

Death is certain. So What ? Why bother about a certainty? What can

you or anyone else do about death? Why should we die much before the

appointed day, everyday fearing death? Why defeatism? Siva Raman

-

-Shree Hari-

 

My understanding of the article is not so much defeatism, as a

reality check.

I have often observed people I know, and the so called rich and

famous in the media, living as if they are immortal, not believing

in karma and rebirth. They should stop and think.

 

See paste: B.G.-16:20. Entering into demoniacal wombs and deluded

birth after birth, not attaining me, they thus fall, Arjuna, into a

condition still lower than that!

 

B.G.-16:21. Triple is the gate of this hell, destructive of the

self—lust, anger, and greed,—therefore, one should abandon these

three.

 

B.G.-16:22. A man who is liberated from these three gates to

darkness, Arjuna, practices what is good for him and thus goes to

the Supreme goal!

 

It appears to me that you wish to make this world a better place, and

surely that is a noble thing to have in a lifetime.

I see the article as defeatism only through the eyes of those who

fall foul, those indicated in B.G.16-20/21. Not those indicated in

B.G.16-22.

 

With Respect and Divine Love,

 

Mike

(Mike Keenor)

-

Dear Sadaks,

One can certainly avoid rebirth if he lives now as per sastras.

Besides death becomes like an invitation for eternal bliss for the

realized one. All this can be achived in this birth.

B.Sathyanarayan

-

 

> The questions and the assertations associated that fear of death is

> a propoaganda and actually anti-living is a very valid doubt one

> could raise at first thought. Is it so?

>

> If fear of death is a propaganda … What propaganda triggered the

cry

> in a baby under pain at its exposure to the world? What propaganda

> makes it cry under hunger? What propaganda makes a child cry when

> ignored? What propoganda makes a child jealous when another child

> gets attention?

>

> Let us also question what do we mean by " Let us concentrate on the

> living. The PRESENT AND NOW is more important and what I can do to

> further this present and now for my fellow beings is definitely

more

> important to me. "

>

> Let us ask ourselves … the so called adults. How often do we urge

to

> gain hold of something to be happy? How often do we pester

ourselves

> (and others) to hold things and relations? How often we believe

that

> our happiness is rooted in the objects and relations we hold? How

> often we fear that we may loose hold of these objects and

relations?

> How often we have lost hold of them and have lamented? How often we

> remind ourselves with memories – good and bad? How often we

> entertain ourselves with imaginations – goor and bad? How often do

> we anticipate results from our actions? How often are we

> dissatisfied with the results? How often have we turned ourselves

> into fear of uncertainty when we invest our money in stocks, land,

> gold, etc.? Have we felt miserable when our beloved ones are hurt?

> Have we felt elated when our beloved ones excel in their lives?

Have

> felt hurt when our beloved ones ignore us or insult us or ill-treat

> us? … Have we felt anxious about our success in our jobs? … in our

> relations? … in our pocessions?

>

> If the answer is yes to any one of these questions … my dear friend

> … we are NOT LIVING IN THE PRESENT! We ARE infested with the fear

of

> death within. That is the unfortunate truth with most of us.

>

> YES … all the spiritual wisdom tries to teach us the same thing –

> the death is a reflex and does not deserve any more attention than

> the fact of our breathing. But if we have answered " yes " to any of

> the above queries, we certainly have not forgotten it my dear

> friend. If have not forgotten it … better address it. One cannot

run

> away from a problem just because one cannot face it. Infact, all

the

> fears are rooted in this escapism which is the actual defeatism.

The

> fears swarm the escapist because the escapist has never attempted

to

> examine the nature of the fears, to develop antidotes for the

fears,

> to reduce the pain of the fears … and most importantly, to remove

> the fears at their roots. The fear of death is the root for all

> other fears in us that haunts us in terms of thirst, hunger and

> ageing making us crave for holding on to objects and relations and

> afraid of loosing the hold at the same time.

>

> Definitely, the focus of the spiritual seeker is TO LIVE IN

> PRESENCE. To attain that state of presence, one should perpetually

> reduce wandering in the past and future. To do that, one has to

> examine the death, its perceived certainty, and its validity in

> real. To do that, one has to become a Nachiketa oneself and enquire

> The Death:

>

> Swarge loke na bhayam kinchana asti,

> na tatra twam na jaraya bibheti |

> Ubhe teertwa asahanaya pipaase,

> shokatigo modate swargaloke ||

>

> O Death! If there is Swarga it should be devoid of all fears

because

> the happiness cannot establish itself in the presence of fears; and

> if there are no fears, your agents such as thirst, hunger and

ageing

> (and hence you) should be absent. Therefore, let me understand you

> properly if they say one can be " fearless " as such.

>

> Therefore, I do not see in Swami Ramsukhdasji's comments on the

> death. Neither do I see any defeatism there. It is an alert to the

> actual defeatists who suffer in life having no clue for its root

> causes and who are afraid to enquire into to the true cause for

> their pain because it the very questioning demolishes the

thresholds

> of the beloved beholdings of life. One has to address the certainty

> and validity of The Death for NOT BEING A DEFEATIST.

>

> Respects.

>

> Naga Narayana

> -

-

> Pranams. I do not consider Swamiji's message as defeatism. It

is

> only alerting us to what is finally awaiting us, so that we can

> usefully utilise our time before the D-Day to do all the good to

all

> the people , at all times. The message is very profound and how

one

> takes it depends on one 's positive or negative outlook.

>

> With regards, G.Vaidyanathan.

> -

-

> My feeble attempt to respond to Siva Raman's inquiry....I am

> concentrating more on the last paragraph, where prabhu explains,

> " PRESENT AND NOW is more important and what I can do to further

this

> present and now for my fellow beings is definitely more important

to

> me. " ......This statement brings to my mind the question, " Do you

> understand how to benefit others? " In the Srimad Bhagavatam, one

> epic is given regarding two different groups of sons born to

Daksa.

> Daksa had been given charge to populate the universe at the

> beginning of the universal cycle. Narada Muni, the traveling

saint

> (who is often known for creating dissention, with the aim of

> bringing the Lord's pastimes nearer to everyone's heart) came

across

> the first group of sons, who were preparing to enter married

life.

> He spoke with them intently about the purpose of their existence,

> which he presented as understanding the need to focus all energy

on

> a loving relationship with the Lord. The result of associating

with

> the topmost servant of the Lord, Narada Muni, was that the sons

gave

> up the desire for married life. No more hankering for children,

> household, sensual pleasures of any type, and they prepared

> themselves for going back Home to the transcendental world. When

> Daksa found out about the effect of Narada's association, he was

> furious. He had a second group of sons, and the same exact

scenario

> took place. These two groups of sons, the Haryasvas and the

> Shavalasvas, were indeed very highly elevated souls from birth, or

> they wouldn't have been able to assimilate the knowledge they were

> given so perfectly, by understanding that human life is rarely

> attained, and all energy should be given to realize our eternal

form

> in loving service to the Supreme. Most of us aren't so

> capable.....to so quickly rise above all attachment to this

world.

> But to think that we can help others have a better life within

this

> body, with no knowledge of connecting with the Supreme, is a

thought

> pattern which should be carefully analyzed. How have we really

> helped someone, if the miseries of the body, namely birth, old

age,

> disease, and death, have not been contended with?

>

> And, a much more grave question, which may require some

thought

> to understand....how many persons are happy with their life to the

> degree that they could honestly say, " I wouldn't mind living

> forever " ? How to attain that state of consciousness where one

WANTS

> to remain, serving others...which is what we all do irregardless

> eternally? To bring persons to the state of consciousness where

> they are truly satisfied, so that they could feel this sense, that

> being here is an experience which is completely fulfilling...to

> understand the concept of serving the Lord first, and thereby

> knowing how to serve humanity....this state of mind is the only

> state by which any of us would want to escape death, isn't it? How

> often do persons stop and consider, how long is FOREVER? Have we

> managed to elevate any of our fellow human beings to this level?

>

> I humbly thank those who have taken a few minutes to indulge my

> queries.

>

> Mahalaksmi Dasi

>

>

> >

> > Hari Om

> >

> > There certainly is no need to bother about a certainty. Nor does

> the

> > extract from short points on the subject message under reference

> is

> > in any manner attempting to impart a fear in the readers.

> >

> > This article in fact by giving example of death is indicating to

> the

> > readers the importance of human form of life and the importance

of

> > what ever time is left in this life.

> >

> > While majority of what is written by Siva Ramanji is accurate,

> other

> > than the conclusions drawn by him, as the context of the article

> > remained to be fully grasped by him. For that matter even each

> and

> > every word written in the message of Swamiji also is right and

> this

> > message takes divine shape the moment we grasp/ understand the

> > context. There is no defeatism advocated in the article. In fact

> it

> > should be taken as a reminder of the importance of balance time

> > available with a human being.

> >

> > It must be understood that this human life is considered to be

> very

> > precious and very very rare in the Scriptures not because of

any

> > speciality of form or sharp intellect or a fertile mind, or

> > existence of ego, or beauty or size etc., but because of

existence

> of

> > " Conscience " in every human being - which particular element is

> not

> > existing in any other form of life. Even in Devatas (demi gods)

> > though Conscience exists but since those life forms are for

> > enjoyment only - it remains in dormant form. In the entire

> universe

> > only human beings therefore can take benefit of Conscience. This

> > Article can also be read as reminder or process of awakening of

> that

> > Conscience in the readers.

> >

> > It also must be understood that human life is neither meant for

> > enjoyment, nor suffering, nor mix of both - it is not a bhog

> > (consumption) yoni (form of life) , it is Yog Yoni (form of life

> to

> > rise above - to realize Paramatma) and time available is most

> > crucial for each one of us.

> >

> > It is only in Human life you can make efforts to realise

> Paramatma -

> > I repeat human life is the only form of life in which you can

> > realise Him. Hence one cannot wholly agree with your statement

> > that " death does not deserve any attention than the fact of our

> > breathing " . If the student sitting in the examination hall

forgets

> > about total hours available with him to write his answers or

> becomes

> > careless about the time available with him - he can hardly

secure

> > good marks.

> >

> > Since you cannot do anything about death as rightly stated by

Siva

> > Ramanji- it is all the more important for each of us to realise

> the

> > importance of balance time left with us.

> >

> > This article definitely criticises those human beings who are

too

> > indulged blindly in worldly enjoyments and feel that they will

be

> > able to live for ever and will get human life again as easily as

> > they think they have received human life this time - and who do

> not

> > understand the preciousness, rarity and importance of human

life..

> >

> > Yes " Now and Present " are quite important in human life as

stated

> by

> > Siva Ramanji. This article also believes in that and therefore -

> > Caution. It cautions us to make best use of " Now and Present " so

> > that the goal of human life can be achieved -and so that before

> > death of this body, this human life form arrives you have

achieved

> > the real goal of this life form. .

> >

> > Where then the question of imparting fear or dying much before

the

> > actual death arises? To tell some body to respect the time

> available

> > is not at all improper. Rather it is kindness of the highest

level.

> >

> > Hope I have clarified the context of the Article under reference.

> >

> > Jai Shree Krishna

> >

> > Vyas N B

> > --------------------------------

--

> -

> >

> > Death is called MRIT and death of death is called A-MRIT. After

> > reaching truth, death does not exist, and thus, no fear, and no

> > separation. Desires and unfulfilled expectation cause fear, and

> with

> > getting rid of desires, one can transcend death. Sri Krishna

says

> to

> > Arjun who is Kshatriya that if he gets success in war, he gets A-

> > MRIT (status of Brahman), and if he does not, he gets SWARG.

> >

> > A man in hospital is like all of us. Given best of the

> > hospitalization, he/she does not want it. He does not want

either

> > to eat good food, nor to rest all day, because of fear of death.

> > He/she prefers to walk bare foot, and doing what he/she likes.

So,

> > what do all of us want? Death is our creation and by choice, it

is

> > not natural. More we will fear from it, more it comes closer.

> > Regards

> > K G

> > (Krishna Gopal)

> > --------------------------------

--

> > Shree Hari

> > Ram Ram

> >

> > Swamiji's points are not emphasizing " Death " and it's

certainty,

> as

> > much as, it is emphasizing that one must become Alert ! become

> > Cautious ! It is about not becoming complacent ! His emphasis

is

> > on not wasting time on the perishable and temporary things. His

> > emphasis is on not waiting until the gas tank is completely

> empty.

> > His empahsis is on not waiting until our station as arrived in

> this

> > journey.... It is certainly not about instilling fear, there is

no

> > mention of it. There is no aspect of it which indicates

> defeatism...

> > only Alertness and Caution !!! Caution at all times !!!

> >

> > The points brought out are giving us all the materials, the

tools

> to

> > become alert, to act quickly and become free from death and fear

> > once and for all. To no longer be stuck in defeatism or

> > complacency. It is to act, utilize this rare human birth, the

> only

> > form of birth where liberation is possible and to once and for

all

> > complete the work for which we have come here.

> >

> > Tulsidasji has said -

> > " So parat dukh pavayi sir dhuni dhinu pachitaayi

> > kaalahi karmahi Ishavahi mithyaa dosh lagaayi. " (Uttarkand. 43)

> >

> > He who does not attain salvation will later on have deep

regrets.

> He

> > will falsely blame and wrongly accuse - time (kaal, death), his

> > activities and work and even God. What will he gain by doing

so ?

> By

> > simply blaming nothing will be attained.

> >

> > Therefore as long as there is lifeforce in this body, as long as

> we

> > have some rights over this body, as long as there is

> consciousness,

> > as long as there is no major illness that has sieged this body

> from

> > all sides, as long as old age has not sieged it, we must

complete

> > our work. This is an immense opportunity to uplift our selves

as

> > Gitaji says, as Swamiji says.. where do you see defeatism ? In

> fact

> > it is bringing out God's compassion and mercy to have blessed us

> all

> > with this rare opportunity - human life. Truly I see this

message

> > is about attaining eternal life once and for all ! not about

> death

> > and it's fear !

> >

> > Meera Das

> > --------------------------------

--

>

> >

> > >

> > > :Shree Hari:

> > >

> > > 9th August, 2008, Saturday

> > > Shraavan Shukla Ashthami, Vikram Samvat 2065, Shanivar

> > >

> > > Caution !

> > >

> > > All resources for the dying are ready. The coffin is ready,

no

> new

> > > one has to be prepared. The pall bearers are also ready. No

new

> > > ones need to be born. The cremation ground is also ready, no

new

> > > place needs to be acquired. The firewood for the cremation is

> also

> > > ready, no new trees need to be planted. The delay is only in

the

> > > stopping of the breath. The moment this breath stops, all

these

> > > materials will come together and be mobilized. Then what room

is

> > > there for complacency ?

> > >

> > > Caution! Become Alert ! This world is not for you to stay

> > > permanently. This place is only for those you are dying and

only

> > > for those in the process of dying. Then how are you

comfortably

> > spreading your legs out and smuggly occupying this space,

> remaining

> > self-satisfied ?

> > >

> > > Think ! Will these days always remain the same forever ?

> > >

> > > You are building a house here, decorating it here, hoarding

> things

> > > here, but you yourself are running towards death ! Wherever

you

> > are

> > > going, first make that ultimate destination a good place !

> > >

> > > Even a train that is scheduled to depart at a fixed time, is

> > > attentive to timing, then what to speak of this train

symbolizing

> > > death which does not have a fixed departure time, for that,

there

> > > should be alertness and cautiousness at all times.

> > >

> > > " We will do " - this is not a certainty, but " we will die " -

> that

> > is

> > > an absolute certainty.

> > >

> > > You do not see God, but God is seeing and watching you, all

the

> > time.

> > >

> > > It is a rule that the incoming one, is the outgoing one.

> > >

> > > In the fire of death, everything is burning away at all

times.

> > Then

> > > who should we trust? Who should we desire?

> > >

> > > Think careful, who is our own? If today death arrives, then

> will

> > > anybody be able to help us ?

> > >

> > > On birthdays we have a celebration, saying we are now these

many

> > > years old ! In reality, we are not that many years older,

> rather,

> > > we have died that many years, in other words, from our total

> number

> > > of years, that many years have come off, and death has come

> closer.

> > >

> > > When a boy is born, whether he will grow into an adult or not,

> > > whether he will get educated or not, whether he will get

married

> or

> > > not, whether he will have a family or not, whether he will

have

> > > wealth or not, in all these matters there is doubt; but

whether

> he

> > > will die or not, in this there is no doubt.

> > >

> > > From " Drops of Nectar " in English pg 26 by Swami Ramsukhdasji

> > >

> > > Ram Ram

> > > ------------------------------

--

> -

> > >

> > > GUIDELINES FOR POSTING A RESPONSE:

> > >

> > > 1. The group is focused on the Holy Gitaji, therefore, only

> > > responses which further clarify the understanding of Gitaji,

> will

> > be

> > > posted.

> > >

> > > 2. Making reference of Gitaji shloka is highly encouraged - at

> > least

> > > once in the response. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji

or

> > > other scriptures to substantiate your response.

> > >

> > > 3. Please be as concise and to the point as possible,

respecting

> > > sadhaka's time. Under no circustance the answer should exceed

say

> > > one (book) page at the most (500 words or so) 3-4 paragraphs.

> > >

> > > 4. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to

the

> > > extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas

> > >

> > > 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only.

> > >

> > > 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other

> > > organizations.

> > >

> > > 7. Complete reproduction of texts from any book is strongly

> > > discouraged, however references may be made of the book or

> author

> > > (but not links to other sites).

> > >

> > > 8. Kindly do not include your personal information such as

phone

> > > number, address etc.

> > >

> > > 9. Please do not address the response to a particular

individual

> > > since the message is going to the entire group.

> > >

> > > 10. Due to the large readership, only those responses will be

> > posted

> > > which are in line with the general philosophy of taking Shrimad

> > > Bhagavad Gita as the reference.

> > >

> > > 11. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if

> content

> > > is unclear for distribution or not directly related to the

> question

> > > being asked.

> > >

> > > 12. Please respond taking into consideration the novices,

youth,

> > > westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use of

only

> > > Sanskrit words, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit

> > > bracketed wherever possible.

> > >

> > > 13. Any personal remarks over the knowledge of any sadhak or

> about

> > > the

> > > stage at which any sadhak is standing in his quest / sadhna /

> > > spiritual journey - must not be included in your posting.''

> > >

> > > 14. There should not be any sarcasm towards fellow sadhaks in

> this

> > > spiritual learning and sharing.

> > >

> > >

> > > MODERATOR

> > > Ram Ram

> > >

> > > ------------------------------

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