Effortless Attainment - Discipline of Actionlessness - (Karana Nirpeksh saadhan)

May 1, 2009

Shree Hari Ram Ram

Reopening a previous topic due to inner quest by a sadhak. AND to CALL OUT to past contributors...Dalmiaji, Bohraji, Ramchandraji, Naga Narayanaji, Krishna Gopalji, Murali Manohar Purohitji, prabhakar c l ji and more. Gita Talk Moderators Ram Ram--------------------------------

NEW POSTING

Hari OmSadhaks should note that by "action" you cannot get Paramatma. It is a law. Whatever be the "action" that you may do ! Hence "actionlessness" is MANDATORY. Once you "accept" this fact, Gita will start looking new to you. Try it.Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B -

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

Swamiji says - Where our senses and intellect do not reach is Inner Silence. Inner Silence is beyond the intellect. Decisions are made by the intellect. Where there is no mind, senses or intellect is karan nirpeksh (without dependence of instruments). The essence is without instrument (karan rahit). There is nothing to be done there. No means are required to reach the essence - it is without instruments. This essence is Inner Silence free of instruments (karan nirpeksh). It is what IS. It is the foundation of everything - the root. Meera Das, Ram Ram

----

narinder is beholden to Naarad N Maharshi jee for all the love contained in his words of advice ........................

whenever narinder reads Swami Ramsukhdas jee's words, the mind goes into a fast ....... and, there is Joy in narinder's heart, .............

that invariably happens because the words of a Realised Sage flow from the Innate Silence of His being ! ..........

Blessed are the sadhakas, whose Minds bow in reverence at the feet of the Saints and the Sages ..........

Nanak says this Bowing is the Way.................

AUM

narinder

----------------------

Shree Hari RAm Ram

Namaskar Ramchandraji... Welcome back ! Thank you for your beautiful submissions in Hindi over the past couple of months... particularly the poetry on Swamiji. Unfortunately we have no one right now who can translate such beautiful works... However we will certainly keep and translate in future... From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram

PRIOR POSTING

Ah, sadhaks........................ are any more words needed ................. ????????????? the words of Swami Ramsukhdas here are adequate to lead anyone into his own Being ..... ever free from any idea or dependence on the Other ! Is this not the Truth that the Swami himself is blessing us here with ! ? To renounce - no instrument is needed. It is done by the "Self" only. It is an easy and better path - "karan nirpeksh saadhan". ..............................................................AH !

Jai Jai Krishna .................. if , however the self finds inadequacy in these words ............... is unable to renounce the sense of Agency ( Doing )...............no need to worry ! ........ let the self follow the longer route of Yoga ................ Perhaps, Patanjali's Ashtang Yoga could be most appropriate , with the shalokas of the Lord's Song Celestial touching your Mind and Heart ! Step by Step By Step.................. into the realisation that you were indeed never the DOER ! And then.............. on realisation ................ One just laughs ! ... Laughter Happens ! AUM sweetest words ever ! ( .........below ).................. ! and , perhaps , amongst the fewest ! .......... for yet greater Joy, read the Swami's complete message ........... ................................................. " To renounce - no instrument is needed. It is done by the "Self" only. It is an easy and better path - 'karannirpeksh saadhan'............................."" .................................................................. ah !! a... h... u.... m ..................aum !!

AUM narinder

:Shree Hari:Ram Ram

SUMMARY : Whatever saadhan is done by the Self is "karan nirpeksh." There is no dependence on anything (instrument) or anyone. It is totally independent. The Real cannot be realised by the assistance of the unreal - it is realised by disconnection with the unreal. So separate your Self from the Unreal and you will realise the Self.For disconnection with Unreal and acceptance of the Real you do not need the assistance of any outside agency and results (success) will be quick. This is a very good discipline, free of risks "karan nirpeksh saadhan".

Saadhan By The Self

We have been discussing the topic of 'with and without the assistance of instruments' (karan saapeksh and karan nirpeksh). What you do and can do with your Self is karan nirpeksh (without the assistance of instruments) . For example your acceptance that God is mine, your belief in God, your decision not to harm or hurt anyone, decision not to lie, etc. These can all be done without the assistance of any instrument (body, person, place, etc.). You are totally independent to do these things. To attain God also you are totally independent. There is no dependence on anything or anyone.

Being dependent on instruments there are chances of one falling down from his path of practice. The one who is not dependent on instruments cannot fall down. Not dependent on instruments is "independent saadhan" (Karan Nirpeksh) and being dependent on instruments is dependent saadhan (Karan Saapeksh). God realisation is not dependent on any instrument. It is done by the Self. It happens when you leave the dependence of all instruments. It cannot happen before.

There are two methods of saadhan - (i) by doing and (ii) by not doing. There is no effort required in renunciation (not doing) of things what should not be done e.g. 'I will not hurt anyone', 'I will not lie', 'I will not abuse anyone', 'I' will not criticise anyone' - no capability is required, no effort is required.Renouncing is easier than doing. You get instant and endless peace (Gita 12:12). You have spoilt your habit - that is why it seems difficult. It is easy. It is tougher to lie than to tell the truth. You have to learn to lie, there is nothing to learn to tell the truth.

Does it take a child any effort to go to his mother's lap? We are the children of God. We can easily go back to Him. We have accepted the things that have been given to us as ours and have forgotten the one who has given them to us. Only God is ours. The more neutral you are to the world the easier it is. You get sorrows only because of your acceptance of things that are not yours (Body, World) as yours and not accepting what is yours as yours (God).

You hear these things in satsang - it is not for hearing only. It is for applying in your life. These are very helpful things for your salvation. People who do satsang must have the inner sentiments of renouncing the evil. To renounce - no instrument is needed. It is done by the "Self" only. It is an easy and better path - "karannirpeksh saadhan".

Summary of Discourse by Swami Ramsukhdasji on June 16th, 1998 at 5 a.m

Ram Ram

---PRIOR POSTING

Hari Om

This refers to learned observations of Pratapji Bhatt on thesubject. I fully agree with him as well as Naga Narainji thatultimately it is Vedanta teachings which have to be the decidingfactors. Here the beautiful example given by Mike Keenor of thetwo birds in fact straight away comes from our Upanishads (Vedanta)only. I am sure we all are unanimous on one front that the essenceof all Vedas is in Upanishads, and essence of all Upanishads is inGitaji.. With this background I address your observations.

Any science, in order to understand a subject, breaks the subjectmatter into parts. Vedanta and Gitaji also, breaks the variouscomponents of body, soul, world etc into parts. You will appreciatethat Gitaji defines/classifies Para and Apara Prakriti, Jeeva, Puresoul, mind, intellect, ego, body, Paramatma, world, Nature etc. intobasically two parts. Sentient and inert. Chetan and Jad. Sat andAsat. Not only Gita but entire Upanishads and Vedas also do so. Refer Gita'sfundamental principle " NASATO VIDYATE BHAVO , NAABHAVOVIDYATE SATAH' (Gita 2:16). There is no existence of Asat ( unreal). There isno absence of Sat( Real). Now all Vedas, Upanishads, Gita include Pure soul /Paramatma as Sat, Jeevatma in two parts - one part of Sat , another part of Asatdue to forming an affinity with Asat. Half this, half that say. That is Ego. InEgo when you remove ASAT part, you have broken the affinity with theworld/matter/nature/body. Only God or Self is remains. The intellect, mind, bodyfunctioning, actions, karmas all changeautomatically. It is a settled principle as per Vedanta thatIntellect, Mind, Chitta form part of "Subtle body". Ego is "causalbody" and remaining body like hand, eye, legs etc are part of "grossbody". (We should admire the precision with which our Scriptureshave broken the body into various segments). These threebodies in Upanishads have been called - "KOSHAS " . The nearest tothe Soul is Ego which, resides in CAUSAL BODY. Another name ofcausal body given in Upanishads is " AGYAANMAYA KOSHA' (IgnoranceZone). In ego as stated earlier Jeeva is sitting forming an affinitywith the matter. Hence ignorance lies not in mind but in Jeeva.Jeeva dispels the ignorance by breaking affinity with the world. MEAND MINE both reside in Ego . Likings and dislikings reside in Ego.How can "mineness" reside in mind? It resides in Jeeva not in mind.Jeeva is DOER. Not the mind. Jeeva suffers, the continuous cycle ofbirth and death. Jeeva goes to hell, heaven, etc. Not the mind orintellect or eyes, or ears. They are consigned to the flames themoment Jeeva leaves the body. The same mind stops functioning. Sameeyes stop seeing. It proves that the very basis of mind, intellectetc is Jeeva (Self). Hence the difference between Jeevaand Jagat is obvious. It is precisely therefore in Vedanta, so muchimportance has been given to CONSCIENCE (Viveka) – whichDISCRIMINATES. We must discriminate. We cant reach anywhere if wedon't discriminate mind with self, sat and asat, jad( inert) andChetan ( sentient). When all Vedas do that, Upanishads do that,Gita does that, what is the problem in our doing that?

Once it is clear that next to Soul is Ego - causal body. Ego controls Subtlebody and subtle body controls gross body – then this concept put forwardbecomes easy to follow.The problem is that we don't classify. We have become too accustomedto identify ourselves with asat / with mind. Anything will come inmind only. Where else it can go in this body ? Even God Realisationwill come in mind only. So what? That does not make a machine, aninert tool, mind that important. If the KARTA (Doer) changes, theactions/thoughts automatically change - it is a law. I need notexplain it in detail to you. You know that. If we look at our directexperiences, it will get established. It is our direct experiencethat if Intellect rejects anything, the mind leaves that thought.Direct experience. So mind is not independent - it gets proven. Itacts under control of intellect. It cannot be DOER. Only doersuffers - it is a law !

As per VEDANTA, the KARTA has to be INDEPENDENT ALWAYS. Is mindindependent? Does not mind work under commands of Intellect? Theyare inert and tools. They change automatically - I REPEATAUTOMATICALLY - when KARTA changes. Now, Pratapji, tell me where isthe need of running after the mind, training it, refining it, etc.The Karan Nirapeksha Saadhans, like Acceptance, Surrender, Devotion,Prem, Karma Yoga, Bhakti Yoga, Jnana Yoga - they attack and addressthe KARTA, the Jeevatma straight away. Once Jeeva understands, andchanges his mine ness (Which so far was with the world) ,everything changes automatically.

Kindly in the interest of all sadhaks ponder over what I have statedabove and let them know your views on the subject. You cando so.

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B--------------------------------Priya Sadhaks

Tulsidasji Maharaj told that bhajan can be done by mind only. Where? Which Doha?

Dalmiaji Pls clarify .

RamchandraWe are not here to agree or disagree to any specific point of view.We are here to assist each other in our path to God realisation.

As far as I am concerned, I can only say that the starting point ofthis journey is the desire to realise God. The duration of thejourney will depend on the intensity of that desire.

Basically as per my understanding, Gitaji has shown three paths (Ido not want to go into the merit of this statement). These areGyan Yog (Disicpline of Knowledge); Karma Yog (Discipline of Selfless Service);Bhakti Yog (Discipline of Devotion and Love)These paths are all leading to the same goal. None of these pathscan be said to be incomplete. The only difference is that thesepaths are meant for different people based on their individualnature. All are allowed to choose their own path based on what theythink suits them and see how they are progressing.

I do not want people to spend their time on my observations made(not questions raised) in my earlier postings. The simple reason isthat their path seems to be different from the one chosen by me andI do not have any intention in deviating from that path as much asthey are not interested in deviating from their's. I must apologiseto Shri Ramchandra for not obliging him by answering his questions.

Once again, my Salutations to all who showered their mercy on me. Ihope they will continue to do so in future as well.

A.H.Dalmia

Re: Reply to new question from Mahalaksmi Dasi

Jai Shri Krishna,

Mahalakshmi Dasi may please note that Krishna confirms in Gita 10:22that amongst sense organs I am mind – "Indriyanaam Manaschasmi".

Desire is in Jeeva only, soul is desireless. The pure soul becomesJeeva because of the assumed affinity with the body, world etc. Themoment Jeeva leaves this assumed affinity with the body, world etc.it becomes pure soul, which is part of the Paramaatma.

Mahalakshmi Dasi has beautifully touched upon the difference betweenpurified desire and material desire. The desires for perishableworldly things (arising due to the assumed affinity with the bodyand world) are known as material desires. They are binding and yieldfruits. However, the purified desires are like roasted seeds – whichdo not have any binding power and do not yield any fruits.

Narayan Narayan

Rajendra J Bohra--------------------------Shree Hari-

Regarding Vaysji answers Q 1-----Q 10 in general not specific. Aconstant them is the mind is a medium/ mirror/ machine etc.Reasonable arguments have been put forward. (I am thinking aloud hereas it were). Now several things come to mind, first one is that mindappears to be a universal, no mind can be different it simply reflectsthe intellect, ( a computer can serve thousands of users, or manypeople can look at the same mirror, but see different images depending wherethey stand).Now if the mind is a tool of the intellect, as stated. Then, as isknown, certain spiritual souls develop as Vaysji noted, occultpowers. And these powers perceived by that person, one presumes in the mind, butit does not seem to be a function of the intellect. In fact one can see withoutintellectual input,(seeing is not looking).Open eyed mediators can see, but take no involvement. (I think thelatest Sadhaka post is touching on my last thoughts).I hope you understand these are thoughts not arguments, conundrums inmy mind, (do I own that mind hmmm?)I would deeply appreciate any wise council on my conundrums.

With Respect and Divine Love,

Mike.(Mike Keenor)

===========================================================

PREVIOUS POSTINGHari Om

Here is verse by verse answers to Dalmiaji's queries. He raisedspecific questions against each verse, hence answers are with eachverse only. Later on conclusions will be given.

Q 1 - 2:38 . WHERE DO WE FEEL 'SUKH AND DUKH' ?.Ans :- Already explained. Refer Gita 13:20. Self (Jeeva)experiences pleasures and pains. Mind is just a mirror / tool forreflection or medium to self here. Equanimity enters the mind. Godis Equanimous. Self is by very nature Equanimous.

Q 2 -3:7 /.3 :37 . WHERE DOES 'KAMANA' RESIDE ?. Ans:- Kaamna (Desire) resides in Karta – doer- not in mind. ( In Ego-WhereKarta with affinity of Prakrati resides in Jeeva Form- likings anddislikings reside in Ego) . Karta suffers the results in the form ofpleasures and pains. Kaamna ( desire) can not reside in machinecalled mind. Refer Gita 13:20. Only doer suffers? Is not it?

Q 3 - 4: 42 WHERE DOES 'AGAYN' RESIDE.? Ans. Ignorance ( Agyaan)resides in causal body- Ego- where Jeeva is sitting forming anaffinity with Nature. Mind is simply reflecting as a medium. Jeevais knowledgeable or ignorant. Mind can neither be knowledgeable orignorant. It is a machine like a computer or air craft. Mind's jobis to think in accordance with instructions of Intellect. Does notcomputer process commands? Is computer ignorant or knowledgeable?

Q 4- 6: 36. EVEN GOD DECLARES THAT THE PERSON WHO DOES NOT HAVECONTROL OVER HIS MIND, WILL NOT BE ABLE TO ACHIEVE ME. ? Ans: Thisverse is in relation to Karan Saapeksha Saadhan viz Dhyaan Yogaonly. We are discussing at present Karan Nirapeksha sadhan. Ifrequired I will observe on it separately. Not now.

Q 5 – 8 : 5. AT THE TIME OF DEATH HE WHO REMEMBERS ME ?.WHERE DO WEREMEMBER FROM ?. IT IS THE MIND !. Ans: Remembrance at the time ofdeath is possible only when you take Karan Nirapeksha sadhan ofacceptance. Refer also advice of Krishna to Arjuna in this regard in8:7- continuous remembering . Karta (self) will cause entry ofremembrance into mind. Mind is only a medium here ! More discussionswill be there on this when 9:34, and 12:2/8 are discussed. Why inevery mind at the time of death , the remembrance of God does notcome ? Mind is same everywhere. Here Jeeva is of essence. Not theinnocent machine called Mind. According to you who remembers God atthe last moment ? Jeeva or Mind? If mind remembers then who will getliberated?

Q 6- 8:14 "ANANYA CHETA SATATAM". GOD ORDERS TO REMEMBER HIM WITHNO DISTRACTIONS. WHERE DO WE REMEMBER FROM ?. IT IS THE MIND !. Ans -Same as above. Mind is only a medium here. A mirror. I will discussthis separately in detail with 9:34 etc

Q 7- 13 :21 "PURUSHAH PRAKRITISTHO HI". WE GET ATTACHED TO THE WORLDBY BEING EXTROVERT. THIS NEEDS TO BE CURBED BY MAKING MINDINTROVERT. Ans Both Extrovert and Introvert are positioning of Mind.By being introvert, that PURUSHA which is referred here, doesnotcease to be out of Prakriti. Do you agree that Purusha and Prakritiare separate ? Yes- you must. Then how change of position of mindchanges the position of Purusha ? Purusha ( Jeevatma) has formedaffinity with matter. Jeevatma has to withdraw. Upon withdrawal byPurusha only change in mind by way of Equanimity, by becomingSattva/ Being etc will arise. Many times you in practical lifebecome introvert. Does at that time Purusha ceases to be connectedwith matter?

Q 8- 13 :28 "SAMAM PASHYANHI SARVATRA". WE NEED TO SEE GOD IN ALLBEINGS. THIS IS NOT BY OUR EYES BUT BY OUR MIND. Ans- Yeah. But mindthere only reflects the equanimity which has arisen due to change inJeeva. Mind is only a mirror here.

Q 9- 14 :25 " MAM CHA YO AVYABHICHRENA". ONE WHO DOES MY UNDILUTEDBHAKTI... HERE AGAIN MIND COMES. Ans- Mind as a mirror shall comeinto picture even when Paramatma Realisation enters the Jeeva oreven when you get liberation with body. Refer my earlier postingBhakti is done by SELF not by mind. NOTE THIS THING CATEGORICALLYTHAT BHAKTI AND SERVICE CAN NEVER BE DONE BY MIND. It is always doneby Self. BHAKTA AND SADHAK ARE ALWAYS UNMANIFEST- BHAAV SHARIRAS. Iwill take up this subject in more detail. All of your new postingissues will get clarified.Whether it is Ramcharitmanas issue, orKapil Bhagwaan reference or Chaitnya Mahaprabhu sayings, or MiraBaai, or Bhooribaiji.THEY ALL ARE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT. Everythingwhich you have written is right, except your conclusions that Bhajanhappens from mind. Wrong. Show me a single reference by them wherethey have said Bhajan is done by mind. Then what SELF does, thenLiberation also should be of body/mind only – where does thenJivatma comes int picture? Wrong. Also the last para of yourposting. It is so unnecessary Anyway, I am duty bound to reply.

Q 10- 15:5 "NIRMAAN MOHA JIT SANGA DOSHA". WHERE DOES "MAAN ANDMOHA" RESIDE. IT IS THE MIND. Moha ( attachment) resides in Ego-where Jeeva resides ( Para Prakrati and Apara prakrati jointlyreside). Respect is a desire of Jeeva. It again lies in Jeeva only.

Q 11- 16 :21 "TRIVDHAM NARAKSEDAM". "KAMA, KRODHA ETC MUST BEOVERCOME. AGAIN THIS IS THE FUNCTION OF MIND. Ans Kaam ( desire)resides in Jeeva. Refer earlier discussion on the subject. Anger isoutcome of non fulfilment of desire. It gives pains to Jeeva. Mindis only a medium/mirror of transferring pain to Jeeva who desired.

Balance in next edition.

You may ask counter questions with reference to above discussions,however.

Jai Shree Krishna.

Vyas N BDear Sadhaks

Namaste. My queries are to A H Dalmia.

I hope you are aware that Jeeva is part of Paramatma and has assumedaffinity with the nature as per Holy Gitaji. Self is unchangeableand ONLY part of Paramatma. Prakriti is ever changeable and bothSelf and God are beyond Nature.Mind is part of Prakriti as per Holy Gitaji.Self is part ofParamatma as per Holy Gitaji. I need not give Gita verse nos , oncein your previous posting you have referred so many verses of HolyGitaji.

You have quoted from writings of Goswami Tulsidasji Maharaj ,Revered Shri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, stating what these respectableSaints told. But you have concluded that "Bhajan is done by Mind".Please prove that the aforesaid Great Saints said so and if theysaid so , please prove by giving reference of their writings, Dohano and verse no of their books.

If they have not said so and if it is only your personal feeling/conclusion then please tell the sadhaks that it is so, and givereasons as to how "doership" vests in mind , which as per HolyGitaji is a "karan" (tool) and is a "jad" ( inert). You must nowprove it.

You also referred to Holy and Most respectable Devotees ofParamatma - Goswami Tulsidasji Maharaj and Mira Baai and concludedwith their reference that:-

A. Acceptance is made by mind and

B Mamata ( mineness) is residing in mind

and not in Jeevatma (Chhijjad granthi) which some other sadhaks havestated..

Please prove by giving specific references of their works/bhajans asto where they so confirmed. If they have not confirmed anywhere andyour mind has so presumed then tell us that it is so and let usknow as to what kind of mind a child has (or you had when you wereinfant) when, the child accepts some one as his mother and as hisfather.

Please also state as to how the mind can make any "mamata" with Godor with Self, when it is part of ever changing Nature and God isbeyond Nature as per Gitaji.

Please elaborate as to what you want to communicate when youreferred Respected Bhagwan Shri Kapildevji stating that " Liberationand Bondage" are in mind. Please state Liberation or Bondage ofwhom? Of the mind? Or of some one else? Pls state reasons as to whythen the mind so adored by you should not be thrown into a dust bin,without making any refinements in it - lock , stock and barrel - bythe Jeevatma who governs the ego/intellect/mind/body etc !

Please also give reasons as to why mind, intellect, ego, body etcshould not be ignored by Jivaatma (Self) as suggested by somesaadhaks and as to why it is necessary to refine them, as stated inPatanjali Yoga Darshana (definition of Yoga) but not in HolyGitaji. Please state what is more important according to you andwhy? Please state how both Scriptures according to you can be livedwith without any contradictions.

You have referred Param Shraddheya Swamiji Shri RamsukhdasjiMaharaj . He stated many times in my personal presence also - HeyNaath Main Apko Bhooloon Nahin. (O Lord , Let me not forget you ). Iagree. But please state from where and from which reference( out ofhis discourses and books) you have drawn the conclusion that thisprayer / this PUKAAR/ this request is from the" mind" and not fromJeevatma as some other Sadhaks have stated.

I am awaiting your responses eagerly.

With sincere respects and regards to you and all fellow sadhaks

Ramchandra-Shree Hari-

I have been following this debate with great interest, the nature ofthe mind and Self and so on.Now if one meditates and takes the time to still the mind to a pointwhere what lies beneath all the clatter can be sensed. (This is nottheory it can be achieved I am sure by any who is so predisposed tothat way of things). What can happen, (now I attempt to unifyexperience to expression), a sense of separation, also unspeakablelove, also an understanding that all is really perfect, the imperfectis a product of illusion.The Impostor Mind, cannot accept this insight and rationality setsin, "that's not me, thats not me...",But the cat is out of the bag, one has had a glimpse of the truth, itbecomes part of ones awareness.At times Ego will try and dominate, but always that knowing is withone.I think I see a drift in this understanding appearing in this debate,it is pretty involved and not easy to follow. (Thats my weakness).A final point, the classic symbol of two birds, (the one I am mostfamiliar with), drinking at the fountain , one drinks the other lookson , certainly makes sense to me at this point of this life.

With Respect and Divine Love,

Mike(Mike Keenor)

-Jai Shri Krishna,

A sadhak must first decide/resolve that he can get liberated !

WHY HE CAN GET LIBERATED ?

Because he is in fact liberated only ! !

He should believe that he can realise Paramatma !

WHY HE CAN REALISE PARAMATMA?

Because in fact Paramatma is already received by him, ever connectedwith him. He is part of Paramatma only.

Sadhak should believe that he can not do anything through body forSELF. Only SELF can help SELF. SELF can not " act" at all !

THEN WHAT CAN SELF DO ?

SELF can not " DO " but it can "BECOME" - Nishkaam(desireless),Nirmam ( mamata less / minenessless), Nirmal (faultless/vicefree/stainless), Nirahankaar (egoless) .

WHY YOU CAN BECOME DESIRELESS/EGOLESS/MINENESSLESS/ FAULTLESS ?

Because by form he is always desireless, egoless, mamataless, andfaultless ! He is part of Paramatma. He has developed desires /ego / mineness / faults because of affinity with world only.

We can by SELF do Bhajan (devotion) and give Service to the world atlarge (Bhakti Yoga and Karma Yoga respectively)

HOW CAN WE DO SERVICE WITHOUT USING BODY ?

By becoming " nirmal" / faultfree/ vicefree. That is real service tothe world. That body can not do , only Self can become so ! !

HOW CAN YOU DO BHAJAN WITHOUT USING BODY ?

By Loving Paramatma. That does not require body. Love ( Prem ) onlySelf can do, because self is part of God. Love arises out ofmineness When self accepts mineness with God, Love is automatic..You can not realise God by mind, intellect, ego and body. Had thatbeen possible then any machine also could have caught Paramatma !Sadhak gets Paramatma by renouncing the shelter of body, mind,intellect etc. We don't need body to realise Paramatma. Only SELF isneeded, WILLING SELF ! !.

Narayana NarayanaRajendra Bohra

-

NEW QUESTION:In regard to posting below, my humble request that Vyasaji give thechapter and number for the following quote (as I am studying thismaterial as attentively as my constitution allows...)

"That's why Krsna stated even in Gita that among sense organs I amthe mind".

My second question...in regard to posting by Rajendra Bohra, he hasmentioned that in fact, desire is not in the mind, it is in thejeeva. This has always been my understanding, that desire issympton of the soul. So, is this forum suggesting that the soulshould have no desire? If so, why are we desiring to understandthis topic? Please explain purified desire in regard to materialdesire.Sincerely, Mahalaksmi Dasi-

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!This is in reference to Dalmiaji's observations on Mind andsubsequent responses.It appears to me that we may be saying the same thing with differentmeanings of such words as mind, Jeevatma(Jeeva), Self, etc., due tointerpretations of scriptures we may have read or heard ourselves orfrom Saints.Vedanta's teaching, as I understand it, is only for training "mind"or preparing it to receive Truth, whereas Self is ever present andshining, needing nothing. Here mind has to be itself ignorance(or inignorance) for Vedanta to say it. One can only address theignorance. Thus, in this context, Jeevatma and mind can be said asone and the same.

Look at our experience: we don't really experience "mind", nor dowe experience "body" in themselves, rather, we only experiencethoughts and sensations in our being conscious-aware of them. Thatis the only real experience! However, In order to communicate, weconceptualize "thoughts" as "mind" and "sensations" as "body".Please see this closely. If one sees this experientially, it is thebiggest proof for oneself of mind's reality.

Wrong identity-ignorance as Jeeva can exist only as thoughts (ormind), which is nothing but a sense of separation called "me", andsubsequent ignorance of doership (karta), enjoyership (bhokta) etcetc. So there are not two, mind and thoughts or body and sensations!In fact all are just one: Ignorance of Self manifesting as thoughtsor mind or Jeeva or "limitations-me"! Use of words create their ownindepenent realities which have no experiential reality,nevertheless, have good communication tools. In this sense, mind canbe called tool as Vyasji says.

Now ever present Self(Atman) is where thoughts, sense of "me" appearas It is the ultimate ground of all that appear! Brahman in movementis Maya principle; thoughts are ripples on the fundamental unity ofall Beings in Brahman(Upanishadas)! Thus there is One reality, Selfappearing in ignorance as Jeevahood-ego, experienced as mind-stuff(antahkarana-tool). In the entire cosmo, there are no separaterealities. When this insight is contemplated upon hearing from thelips of one's Guru(Upanishadas), Self is realized as the only ONETruth, God and Devotion is natural pouring of heart!

While on this pursuit of Knowledge(Gyan), one should acknowledge theunity of such terms from the beginning(it is the Shrawana, Manana,Nididhyasana practice) and not wait to realize it as an end ofSadhana because it propagates the wrong notions! Of course theseterms are, not only good communication tools, but the only tools todescribe the undescribable.So we may be right in saying what we say in the context.Difficulties arise only in communications which is why suchplatforms as this are useful.Thank you all Sadhakas.....Namaskaras....Pratap(Pratap Bhatt)

====================================================================

Jai Shree Krishna,

Desires do not reside in mind. They come in mind -"manogataan" -Gita2:55. Mind is a tool. There can not be any desire in a tool. Isthere any desire in the car to run? Is there any desire in pen towrite? If we presume that desires are existing in mind, then thesorrow arising due to non fulfillment of desire also should be tomind. But sorrow is to the Self (embodied soul - Jeeva). (Gita 13:20)

In fact desires are in "Karta", the Jeeva (embodied soul, not thepure Self, the embodied self) who experiences the pains thereof.

Mind is not the "doer", hence not the experiencer. Mind is notindependent, it works under intellect. It is a law that Karta (doer)is always independent. Intellect is also not "doer", it also is atool only. Pure Self (Chetan) is also not "doer". Had pure Self beendoer, it would never have been possible to remove "doership". (Gita13:31- na karoti na lipyate - pure self neither does nor getsentangled).

The activities happen in nature as a natural phenomena. One whoassumes doership only reaps pleasures / pains. Just as car runs butwe say " I am going/ travelling" - because we have attachedourselves with car. Do you fly or the aircraft flies?

In fact in neither the inert ( mind, intellect, body) thereis "doership" (kartitva) and "enjoyer/suffership" ( bhoktritva) northey are in pure Self, Chetan, Atma . They exist in JeevatmaJeevatma - pure self when it exercises its power ofacceptance/affinity with nature becomes Jeevatma. He assumespositioning in Nature, he "assumes" himself to be doer, inspite ofhis not being the "doer"- hence he enjoys/suffers , not an innocentmachine called mind. He is ignorant not mind.Not the pure self. Butthe assumed self. Jeeva liberates not the mind. Mind is asat(unreal). Not the pure self-it is ever liberated.

Entire center of attraction therefore is Jeevatma - not inert toolslike mind , not Pure Chetan Atma - but Jeevatma.

Hence we have address this Jeevatma only not a machine called mind !In Jeeva, there are two parts. One - pure Self, Atma, exclusive partof God. Two - Prakriti / Nature with which he assumes affinity. Theycombinedly remain and hence the term "Jeeva". All scripturesconcentrate on this creature called Jeeva not innocent machinecalled mind.

Narayan NarayanRajendra J Bohra

-Hari Om

Thank you Dalmiaji for really good observations on mind.You have indeed raised very relevant questions which needclarification in a manner as easy as Maharajji told and it may take2/3 postings. Please do not hesitate to raise any questions orcounter questions - it is the very purpose of this esteemed forum.

Mind in fact is a unique creation of nature. Nothing can match it.That's why even Krishna stated in Gita that among sense organs I ammind.

You have drawn attention to 2:38, 3:7, 3:37, 4:42, 6:36, 8:5, 8:14,9:34, 18:65, 12:2, 12:8, 13:28,14:25, 15:5 and 16:21.- to concludethat Mind is an important Sadhana tool and the teachings of Swamijibecome really easy only when we tackle / control this typicalmachine called Mind.

First of all let me clarify that in the body the mind is the mainorgan, everything has to pass through mind, be it conscience orsmriti, or experience or even Paramatma Realisation or reflection oracceptance or devotion or Prem (Love) or Equanimity or even SELF inits pure form etc etc. In many others and rather in each of theabove at least the mind is merely a reflector / a mirror and thatdoes not mean mind has in fact acted. These things enter the mindinvoluntarily and shine "through" the mind.

Even Ego, Intellect, Chitta though different from mind can reflectonly "through" mind. Mind is an inert tool, a machine.

There are 2 things. One - what mind does, thinking. Two - whatarises automatically in mind. In latter mind is mere reflector.There is no doership there. It has not done anything there exceptreflecting as a mirror. Where else Samata (equanimity) can shineexcept in mind? Where can experience of pain and pleasure getreflected except in mind? It is Jeeva (embodied soul) in factwho "experiences" pleasure and pain, not mind. Jeeva is ignorant notmind. Mind is inert - it cannot experience. Mind is atool /organ /machine. Responsible and real experiencer is Karta(doer) - Jeevatma - who presumes "I am doer" The Doer experiencesthe pains or pleasures. (Gita 13:20) not the mind. For everythingwhich reflects in Mind, the action really is not of mind. What isreal role/action of mind in that thing which it merely reflects as amirror-except reflecting as mirror?.. Where is action of water whenSun reflects there? It is inert, a tool , a machine !

Does the mind cease to operate in God realised souls ? No, themirror role continues, SELF there shines in its pure form.. Manyverses which you have referred merely indicate the mirror role ofmind and hence become irrelevant from mind control point of view.

In fact the enlightened mind is called "Being" or "Sattva". The mindis born again , "Being" is not born again. The knowers of theTruth , who are free from the mind,are constantly established in aneven position.They move about sportively with the ease of theirstation or state that is Pure Being. ( Yoga Vaashishtha).

Did Swamiji not have mind after realisation ? Yes he had, but notmind , Sattva/Being - same mind !!

But there are many verses referred by you which indeed must beaddressed fully like 12:8, 12:2, 9:34 etc.

I shall deal verse by verse in next posting.

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

-

I would like to supplement on the subject on what I wrote yesterdayas follows:

Goswami Tulasidas ji Maharaj firmly says"Baru Mathe Ghrit Hoi, Sikta te Baru Tel, Binu Hari Bhajan na BhavTariye, Yah Siddhant Apail"Last three words are very significant and worthy of deeperthought. "This Cardinal Principle is unchangeable". Further it mustbe noted that 'Bhajan' has to happen from Mind.

Shri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu equally firmly says"Harernamaive Harernamaive Harernamaive Kevalam, Kalau NastyevaNastyeva Nastyeva Gati Anyatha".Normally in any Kavya any repetition is considered a major defect.But in this place Mahaprabhu has used the same word not two butthree times to impress how important this is. It need not berepeated that 'Harernam' is to be done by Mind.

When Goswamiji says "Tulasi Mamta Ram Se" (as said by Rajendrabelow), we need to appreciate where does that Mamata reside. It isin the Mind.

Meera Bai used to chant "Mere To Girdhar Gopal, Doosro Na Koi".Where does one accept any relationship. It is the Mind.

Shri Kapil Bhagwan says"Chetah Khalvasya Bandhaya Muktaye Chatmano Matam, Guneshu SaktamBandhaya Ratam Va Punsi Muktaye".The main reason for 'Bandhan and Moksha' is the mind. If it isattached to the world, it results in rebirth and if it starts lovingGod it results in Moksha. Hence the importance of Mind

"Yoga" means to get attached to God. The very definition of Yogais "Chitta Vritti Nirodhah". Again the attack is on Mind.

In Gyan Yoga, we do not start with "Aham Brahmosmi". This is not thefirst but the last step. Here we start from"Pragyanam Brahma". After meditating on this principle, we move onto "Ayam Atma Brahma". Having reached that stage, we areadvised "Tat Twam Asi". Again the sadhak goes back to his meditationand realises this truth. Then and then only he returns to say "AhamBrahmosmi". So we see that we do not start by saying I am the God.When we meditate on "Pragyanam Brahma", we are infact training theMind.

Swamiji Maharaj used to repeat virtually in all his pravachans "HeyNath Main Apko Na Bhulun". Where does remembering and forgettingtake place. It is the Mind.

Even in our scriptures we find the words "Gyanottar Bhakti". Wenever find the words "Bhaktottar Gyan". This means that even when weRealise through the Gyan Yog, there is still something left and thatis Bhakti. Bhakti in real terms means 'Prem' (Love for God). Lovecan happen only in the heart and the Adhyatmik Heart is Mind.

I remember, once I had the chance to meet a great saintcalled 'Bhoori Bai'. She used to reside in Natha Dwara. I requestedher to guide me in the path of Realisation. I asked her "what shoudI do to achieve that goal". To my surprise she said "kucch nahinkarna". I had full faith in her words. Hence there was no way, Icould take it lightly. I meditated on this answer in the night andthe next morning I again went to her lotus feet and requested her toelaborate as to what she meant. She said "in any case what do youdo". This meant clearly that do what you do but without 'KartritvaAbhiman'. This then leads us to the fact that we are not the body.This needs to take roots in our Mind. And for that we need to trainour Mind.

In the end I would only like to re-iterate that it is easy to justread a scripture or hear a saint and give discourses. But it willbecome much more meaningful, if we spend time in translating thesame in our life and then see if we are speaking from the level of abeginner (Sadhak). Without that, there is all the possibility thatwe miss out on what the Sadhak really needs.

A.H.Dalmia-

My understanding is that there cannot be wrong in any wordswhosoever uttered in whatsoever manner. The very Bramhan makes everysyllable, every sound and every atom to their perfection as such. Inthat case, how can anything built by these basic building blocks canbe NOT perfect?!

Also, however detailed one can express oneself, all the expressionsremain a tip of the iceberg, the experience beneath the expressionsremaining infinitely concealed. Thus, every expression in this worldhas its own legitimacy in terms of the experience that backs it up.Following is my opinion on finding wrong in somebody's utterances:

1. Finding something wrong or objectionable in some body else'sutterances is utterly erroneous in itself since nobody can accesssomebody else's iceberg of experience and hence get disqualifiedautomatically.

2. It is useless to find wrong and objectionable aspects insomebody's writings as it does not bring any new understanding – onewho finds wrong is sticking to what he already "knows" – retainingone's ignorance intact.

3. It is dangerous to make an attempt to find errors in othersbecause the very attempt is to justify one's own errors and even toconceal the same.

Therefore, if at all I can, I can put forward my views and opinionsfor others benefit (if any) in more detail on the subject inresponse to Vyasji's scholarly writings.

My understanding is that The Upanishad prevails everywhere ineverything at all the times transcending all the barriers of spaceand time. If one does not see that, it is the students fault. Thenit is the student's responsibility to correct himeself. For that heneeds to equip himself within with Shraddhaa (the trishul of tapa,dama and karma) and receiving genuine help from the environment(vedas) such as the great virtual ashram we have with so many greatsouls pouring their genuine thoughts and experiences for everyone'sbenefits. I am so blessed to be one in this Homa (and Home!).

I will make my best attempt to understand from Vyasji's writings formy benefit and express my views as I can.

Respects.

Naga Narayana.

Namasthe everyone. Many devotees have responded this question andthis is my humble opinon for the question ""How does one who is notable to immediately feel the Lord's presence rise to that level?What is the path of attaining what some individuals have withouteffort, and how is it that they have this?"

The simplest path i feel is: just see each and every beings as yourown and in each and every action that we do, do not have anyexpectation at all for the output (Gita 3rd chapter, karma yoga) andsurrender that output (whatever it maybe) to that Supreme.

Regards,Bharathi

====================================================================PREVIOUS POSTING

Jai Shree Krishna

Swamiji's last speech - translated by Vyasji for benefits of Sadhaks-in fact is the most important write up which humanity for aeons willcherish.

Minimum words-infinite result!

He in fact in this speech took the essence of every. major Yogadescribed in Gita including Dhyaan Yoga(silence/desirelessness justbefore realisation- Gita 6:24/25 ), Karma Yoga(Duty/equanimity),Bhakti Yoga ( Surrender) and Jnana Yoga (Nothing is mine,I don'tneed anything, I don't do anything)- to prove that in the end allyogas lead to same result !

Step one can only be "acceptance" - TULSI MAMTA RAAM SE ! ( Minenesswith Paramatma only) . Mirabai Said- Mere to Girdhar Gopal, DoosaroNa Koi. (Only Paramatma is Mine, nobody else is mine).

Swamiji in fact never contradicted any saying of any Scripture. Heproved every Scripture right!

Here the process emanating out of Swamiji's last speech is aguaranteed process. It is guaranteed by God because it meets withalmost every concluding verse of Gitaji spoken by Lord Krishna withreference to God realisation- be it Verse2:38, 2:45, 2:48, 2:71 or18:66, 6:20, 6:24, 6:25, 6:3, 9:31, 12:12,18:66 and many manyothers .!

It is guaranteed further by a remark of Lord Krishna to Arjuna inGitaji. He stated in in 9;31 - Kaunteya pratijanihi na me bhaktahpranshyati - O Arjuna, you take the vow that my devotee shall neverfall.( Or proved wrong)

Why did Lord ask Arjuna to swear? Why He Himself did not swear/ takethe vow? Answer is that God can at any point of time, when it comesto His devotees, change/ back out from his "pratigyaa"(vow/promise/swearing)- He doesn't mind then being called as "Ranchhod" ( runner from war front) or " Chor" ( thief) or Vaaman (dwarf ), also. After all - Bhakta mere Mukut Mani ( My devotees arejewel of my crown). He in fact vowed before He became driver ofArjuna's Ratha (chariot) in Mahabharat War that " I shall not liftweapon in Mahabharata War" . But when his devotee , Bhisma Pitamah,also vowed that- I shall make Krishna lift weapon in the MahabharatWar- Krishna backed out from His vow, lifted the weapon and therebyensured that the vow of His devotee, Bhisma, prevailed - andnot His !!

Here in this speech not one but at least three confirmed devotees ofLord Krishna are involved - Mira Baai, Swamiji and GoswamiTulsidasji Maharaj. (In fact many more) On the top of it Krishna'sdivine voice itself is standing authenticated in this speech ofSwamiji- in more than one ways..

We need only to believe, to accept!

Narayan NarayanRajendra J Bohra-------------------------------Shree Hari-

I think Rajendraji understood the my point I made, (in my clumsy way)regarding GOD pointing a Sadhak to the easiest way to Realization, asVyasji pointed out there a many approaches.The mention of Japa, and also the deep silent approach, along withB.G. Chapter 6 as an offering to Paul.It appears intellect can see Paramatma in all, even by deepthought it can be reasoned, but it seems to actually Know, (torealize) is entirely a different thing.Equanimity and Apathea describe the same state, (an expression usedby western mystics).I have been conservative, in my comments, (not so much my questions),I really desire not to offend. Vyasji has been attempting to draw mefrom my shell, to which I have retreated. Having always been a deepthinker on things spiritual, and drawn to meditation over manyyears. (I had no particular fixed belief). I thank you for extendingyourself and making it possible to share my thoguhts. With Respectand Divine Love.

Mike(Mike Keenor)-Pranams. Thanks for circulating Swamiji's last speech, which is verprofound and highl motivating.G.Vaidanathan-Stilling of Mind (Manah) with help of Buddhi (intellect) in removalof impurity of thoughts is Yoga. But this practice of mind controlis not easy and yet easily achievable. Manah (mind) is like gaswhich after seeing something new, it gets desire of it. If it doesnot see / know, desires do not come. Thus, let mind be free to seeand know but not stick to any of these, and so that it can returneasily through a hole to inner self.

K G Misra-I greatly appreciate the explanations given by Shri Vyasji by takingso much pain. I also agree with what he says.

I wish to draw attention of sadhaks to the following where myunderstanding and experience is that mind is of great importance inonce sadhana:

Chapter 2 Verse 38 "Sukh dukhe same kritva". Where do we feel 'Sukhand Dukh'.Chapter 3 Verse 7 "Yastvindriyani manasa". Chapter 3 Verse 37 "Kamaaisha krodh aisha". Where does 'Kamana' reside.Chapter 4 Verse 42 "Tasmat agyan sambhutam" Where does 'Agayn'reside.Chapter 6 Verse 36 "Asayyatatmana yogo dushprap'. Even God declaresthat the person who does not have control over his mind, will not beable to achieve me.Chapter 8 Verse 5 "Anta kale cha mameva smaran". At the time ofdeath he who remembers me...Where do we remember from. It is themind.Chapter 8 Verse 14 "Ananya cheta satatam". God orders to rememberhim with no distractions. Where do we remember from. It is the mind.Chapter 9 Verse 34 "Manmana bhava". God orders that we should givehim our mind. Please note that this is the only Verse that isrepeated in the whole of Gitaji (Repeated in Chapter 18 Verse 65).This shows how much importance God has given to this.Chapter 12 Verse 2 "Mayyaveshya mano ye mam". God orders toconcentrate the mind (Ekagra) in Him.Chapter 12 Verse 8 "Mayyeva mana adhatsva". God orders to keep mindattached to Him.Chapter 13 Verse 21 "Purushah prakritistho hi". We get attached tothe world by being extrovert. This needs to be curbed by making mindintrovert.Chapter 13 Verse 28 "Samam pashyanhi sarvatra". We need to see Godin all beings. This is not by our eyes but by our mind.Chapter 14 Verse 25 "..... Mam cha yo avyabhichrena". One who doesmy undiluted Bhakti... Here again mind comes.Chapter 15 Verse 5 "Nirmaan moha jit sanga dosha". Where does "Maanand Moha" reside. It is the mind.Chapter 16 Verse 21 "trivdham naraksedam". "Kama, krodha etc must beovercome. Again this is the function of mind.Finally in Gitaji (Chapter 7 Verse 19) God has expressed that aftermany rebirths, when finally the sadhak realises me, such sadhaks arerare.

I would also like to draw attention of Sadhaks to Shrimad Bhagwat.In Skada 3 Chapter 25 Verses 15 to 20, Kapil Bhagwan tells hismother how to achieve God. Here again he asserts 'Chetah khalasyabandhaya" mind is the main reason for 'Bandhan and Moksha'.

Begging for Shri Vyasji's forgiveness, I have tried to pick upverses at random from almost all Chapters of Gitaji to impress thatMIND in perhaps the most important aspect in SADHANA.

Now let me clarify why I agree with Shri Vyasji. Once we have beenable to establish firmly in our "Self" that I am neither the Bodynor the Mind nor the Intellect, then everything that Shri Vyasji hassaid falls in place. But to reach that stage, we have to cross theother barriers created by the mind.

Also, when God himself declares "Sa Mahatma sudurlabhah", how can wesay that he can be achieved instantly. I do accept that Maharajjiused to frequently say "Bhagwan mil jayen abhi abhi". However, Idid not get an answer.

Once again begging for forgiveness from all whom I may have offendedby differing with them.

A.H.Dalmia

-

Hari Om

Who can say exactly as to how the last stage of God Realisation iscrossed ? Only a God Realised Mahatma ! Who else ? On 30th June,2005, barely 3 days before his death, Swamiji delivered his lastspeech at Swaragashram, Rishikesh …. and what a speech it was !Coming from a "God Realised" Mahatma, the speech is direct, crisp,brief and totally focussed. His body had become too weak and hencehe used minimum words. But each & every word was an ocean.Presently to Dear Sadhaks, the "Last Speech of the Genius – SwamijiShri Ramsukhdasji Maharaj ".

"There is one thing which is very good, very simple and very easy.And that is – Do not keep any desires. Neither of God, nor of Soul,nor of World, nor of Liberation, nor of Kalyaan – don't keep anydesires and become silent. Become peaceful. Reason being that Godis existing everywhere in a peaceful, silent mode. He is presenteverywhere automatically and naturally. If no desires remain inyou, no expectations remain in you – you get God immediately, youget fulfillment, you get completeness – immediately.

It is the experience of each one of us, that some desires getfulfilled and some desires do not get fulfilled. It is not a law orrule that all of our desires will be fulfilled. To fulfill desiresis not in our control. But the relinquishment (tyaag) of thedesires is completely under our control. When there is no wish ordesires existing, you shall be automatically and naturallypositioned in God. You will get "God Realisation" instantly.Nothing to desire, nothing to do, nowhere to go, nowhere to come,no practice. That is all. In this itself all things are over.The "Bondage" to the world arose only because we desired. Themoment we leave desires, we get positioned into God – automatically & naturally.

Remain impartial in every work. Neither like nor dislike doing anywork.

"TULSI MAMTA RAM SO; SAMATA SAB SANSAR ! RAAG NA ROSH NA DOSHDUKH; DAAS BHAYE BHAV PAAR !! (Dohavali – 94)"

(Says Goswami Tulsidas – By "mineness" only with God and byonly "Equanimity" with the world; with no attachment (liking),aversion (disliking), fault finding and sorrow, the surrendered(Daas) crosses the ocean of worldly existence).

There is "activity" and "matter". Both "matter" and "activity" arecombinedly called "Nature" (Prakrati). By disconnecting bothwith "matter" and "activity", get yourself dependent upon one God.Surrender yourself to the God …. And that is all is needed. Thenyou are naturally & automatically positioned into God.

A woman lost her child in the dream. She became very anxious,worried and restless. When she got up from the sleep, she found herchild peacefully sleeping beside her, meaning thereby that whereveryou are, the God is completely present there itself. Wherever youare, become silent there itself.

Q (By a Listener) : Sir, you told yesterday that let there be nodesire. Now which one is more beneficial – to be desireless or tobecome silent ?

Swamiji – Accept that "I am of the God, God is mine, I am not of anybody else and no one else is mine". To become "desireless" and tobecome "silent" – both things are one and the same only. You don'thave to desire for anything – neither of worldly "bhogs", nor ofLiberation, nor of Divine Love (Prem), nor of devotion (Bhakti) norof anything else.

Q (By a Listener) : I have not to desire for anything. But if Ihave to work, then ?

Swamiji : Do your work whole heartedly. Do your work 24 hours aday – but do not keep any desires within you. Understand this thingproperly. Serve others, remove pains / sorrows of others but do notdesire anything in return. Do service to others and become silentin the end. If you are in employment, take your salary, but do notdesire for it.

The essence is that wherever you are, the God is there itself. Ifyou do not have any desires then your positioning shall be in God.When everything is God only – then we have to desire for what ? Wehave desire for the world, therefore our positioning is in theworld. When there is no desire, we remain positioned in the God."

In the next Article I shall elaborate on this further.

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

---

Jai Shree Krishna,

Important thing to note between these two sadhans viz KaranNirapeksha Sadhan and Karan Sapeksha Sadhan is that ultimately theGod Realisation comes to you from only Nirapeksha Sadhan ,irrespective of your doing saadhna (striving) through SaapekshaSaadhans. Reason is that you can not realise Him by the aid ofnature, or matter- IT IS A LAW. . You can realise Him only byrenouncing the nature.

For example, in Dhyaan Yoga ( Meditation) – which is a KaranSapeksha Sadhan - due to long time practice ( abhyaas) and Vairagya( dispassion) and by again and again forcing the mind to turntowards God i.e. to get attuned with God, the mind becomestranquil/disinterested/quite. Because on one hand, there is nodesire of world left in mind, and on other hand being inert, itcannot reach/receive/grasp Paramatma. Mind then has no choice but toget "upraam" , disinterested and become "equanimous". The momentmind becomes so , saadhak gets disconnected from mind/matter/natureand realises the God by SELF (Gita 6:20) .

But , for example in Karma Yoga- which is Karan Nirapeksha Sadhan -, a Sadhak right from beginning assumes relationship with theworld only for serving the world , for giving , not taking anythingfrom world -. He becomes desireless very fast – by doing duty only.As soon as he becomes desireless , he gets Equanimity. The momentmind becomes Equanimous , saadhak gets disconnected from matterand realises God by SELF

Similarly in Bhakti Yoga – a Sadhak right from beginning assumesrelationship with only God and nothing else- and thus he becomesdesireless even faster- by just seeing everything happening as God'sWill . He then is given Equanimity by God Himself ! God startstaking all of his responsibilities, the moment He accepts hisrelationship with God and renounces his relationship with world.

That is how the simple also becomes easy !.

Narayan Narayan

Rajendra J Bohra

> ==============================================================Shree HariRam Ram

Dear Sadhaks,At this time, there will be no new subjects / questions introduceduntil after 23rd August, to allow sadhaks time to review the entirestring of deliberations on this very important spiritualdiscipline. Sadhaks are only taking questions / doubts / issues /inquiry / clarification / disagreement etc. on the material coveredon this subject.

In your posting, please include first the statement made by theSadhak "As is" in these deliberations and below it, please includeyour comments regarding your doubts, disagreement, additionalquestions you have etc. pertaining to what the sadhak has stated. Ifthere are disagreement, please state the source of scripture andverse reference that supports your theory / understanding etc.Please kindly stay away from generalized statements, opinions, andfeelings.

This will be an invaluable use of every sadhak's time, in thisspiritual journey. Also recommended reading are the links below onthe same subject in past daily sadhak messages. Questions / issuesrelated to anything in these daily messages will also be taken atthis time.

sadhaka/message/1349sadhaka/message/1375sadhaka/message/1416sadhaka/message/1434sadhaka/message/1670sadhaka/message/1721sadhaka/message/1934sadhaka/message/2030sadhaka/message/1236

We look forward to your sincere study of the material.

From Gita Talk ModeratorsRam Ram

Question: How does one who is not able to immediately feel theLord's presence rise to that level? What is the path of attainingwhat some individuals have without effort, and how is it that theyhave this? many thanks, Mahalaksmi Dasi---New PostingHari Om

There are four main differences between Karan Saapeksha (Disciplines aided byinner faculties - Mind/Body / Intellect etc) and Karan NirapekshaMethods ofParamatma Realisation.

1. Assistance of matter, (body,senses,mind etc) has to be taken inSapekshaMethod, while no such assistance is necessary , in the NirapekshaMethod,instead the assumed relationship with matter, is to be sundered orbroken up.

2 There is, creation of new state of mind in the Sapeksha Method,but inNirapeksha Method there is realisation after breach with all statesof mind.

3 In Sapeksha Methods, there may be an acquisition of occult powers(siddhis),but in Nirapeksha Methods there is direct and intuitive experienceof Reality,on severance of relationship with matter.

4 God Realisation in the Sapeksha Method is NEVER iMMEDIATE , but inNirapekshaMethod God Realisation is IMMEDIATE , as soon as a breach withmatter iscomplete, either by surrendering to Him, or on being established inthe Self.

The Basis of Sapeksha Method is - If the mind gets tuned to God, itis alright.But if it is not so tuned, then nothing happens.

The Basis of Nirapeksha Method is- Whether or not,mind is attuned toGod,it doesnot matter; but one's SELF should be attached to God. Here there isdirectrelationship of Self with God,with a total breach of ties, with themindintellect complex. Here the prime factors are conscience ( viveka)and believing(bhava) !

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

--------------------------------

New Posting-Shree Hari-

I had actually written a response to Pauls comment, but I slept onit, I wanted to focus on Mahalaksmi Dasi comments/query and I am gladI did, I will insert my new thoughts in brackets.A Benediction, (who was a mystic), made a wise comment, "you cannotdefeat the Ego, with the Ego".He also said, "simple is not always easy".Thus if you have a burning desire for the Beloved, believe that Hethat is at the Alter of your heart, will guide you. The easiest wayfor you will be truly revealed. (When the student is ready themaster will arrive).[ It is clear to me that you truly love theLord, he is you Beloved, you are reaching out to him with all yourdevotions, if you cannot find him in your Heart, you are notlooking , He is there He cannot not be there, dwell on this!]I mentioned with regards to Devotion B.G. 12.Now with regards to Meditation, I read chapter 6 in The Gita. To meit was the most wonderful expression on the subject that I have everread. Somethings touch ones soul, it did mine. I have seen Japamentioned by Sadhaks in various threads, I am familiar with thepractice, albeit the silent form, I knew it as the way of themantra. The power of it is that it brings the mind into a singlefocus, the sacred mantra. Thus meaning surrender to the mantra,and finally surrender the mantra.

That final surrender of course is to GOD.Resorting to metaphors. Imagine one is at sea at night in a terriblestorm, the boat seems to be tearing apart under the strain of thestorm, your heart is full of fear, but you keep your eye on the lighthouse, because by means of its guidance lies your refuge, you libertyfrom the chaos. The single point is so important when one goes theway of meditation. (I say this with sincerity). Refer B.G. 6. 11-12.I hasten to add still deep silence may be achievable by some, withoutany recourse to anything else, such souls are truly blessed.A final point, if one tries to understand something, not in a logicalway, but, (this is hard for me to explain), but by means of theDivine, in very deep silence, then ones sense of reality can change.One has to take responsibility for this newly acquired reality, neverto be abandoned. The recent comments by brother Vyas were almostbrutal in their simplicity, how absolutely true they are.

With Respect and Divine Love,

Mike(Mike Keenor)-Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!Very insightful discussions taken place on the question:'How does one who is not able to immediately feel the Lord'spresence rise tothat level' as lead by Vyasji.I may echo them in words of my understanding.The one approach that has helped me is by coming in contact withTruth of"oneself" by direct experience bypassing the senses and mind and isconsistentwith Shankara's Aparokshanubhuti! This is to be done with lot ofdevotion andnot just intellectual exercise out of curiosity. It will make onefeel Lord'spresence immediately, provided one longs for Truth, same as Lord andis ready togive up his life if needed.How can one bypass mind, right?Burn with the desire "help me Lord to find out the mystery of "me"and "You, Iam not going to rest until I do". This desire is impersonal becauseif it issincere, it is coming from Lord Himself who wants to be discoveredthrough theapparant sadhaka! Lord Himself has identified with limitations ofbody-mindorganism of Sadhaka playing hide and seek leela, and yet remainingto bediscovered spontaneously! Impersonal desires get fulfilled!Personal desires indicate craving for objects as they come fromassumedseparation from Lord.This desire will take one inward beyond mind because mind's answerabout God'spresence will not be found satisfactory anymore. Until now God wasan image inthe mind based on everything one is told by others, read inscriptures and/orheard from saints. This image is seen as consisting of organisedthoughtsarising in Awareness due to sustained inward pull toward what liesbeyond. WhenAwareness is aware of Itself, there is a glimpse of Blissfulnesswithout anyobjectivity limting it. This is one's true nature or Lord's presencewithin,Pure Subjectivity(not Subject)!Once the Sadhak tastes it, every object of the world will lead himto thePresence within. Mind will cooperate and drown in Devotion!Sadhaka will not remain individual anymore, rather one withEverything arisingin pure Unconditioned, UndividedAwareness(Consciousness-Existence-Absolute-Brahman).Sadhana continues on its own till what seems to take time only frommind's pointof view, to merger in Absolute!Namaskaras..Pratap

===================================================================

Hari Om

Thanks to all Sadhaks for patient observation of my, RajendrajiBohra's and Meera Dassji's summarisations regarding The DisciplineOf Actionlessness (Karan Nirapeksha Saadhan). Now it is time foropen and frank discussions, question and answer sessions. Allsadhaks may now come up with their specific queries. Queriesreceived so far are predominantly insisting for "practice" andslowness , step by stepness involved in Paramatma Realisation andstress that Purification of Antahkarana (Mind, Intellect, Ego etc.)is very essential. Refer even fresh queries of Krishna Gopal,Golianjaneyulu, and even Paul Pooniah. It is understandable. We allare accustomed of achieving results in this world only by actions,practice, etc , therefore we all believe that by only karmas oractions even Paramatma Realisation will take place. That however isnot a correct assumption.

For those Sadhaks who have generally observed like Paul Pooniah (Irequest Mike also to respond to him) the answer is that In fact Godis everywhere and therefore He is here also. We don't have to goanywhere to search for Him. He is at all times, therefore he is nowalso. We don't have to wait for a future time.He is in everybody, so He is in us also So there is no need to makeany efforts by us. He is the kindest..So we will not have to bedejected. He belongs to everybody therefore He is ours also.There will be automatic Love (Prem) for Him. He is all powerfu ,therefore we need not be fearful. He is unique/second to none,therefore we don't have to recognise Him / describe Him.Now what is needed ? He is present, Self is present – where is thedelay? Our desire is needed ! Our correct acceptance is needed !Our willingness is needed ! Our looking at Him is needed ! Our mereglance at His presence right inside us is needed ! (Did not Mikeobserve – go within ? ) That is all is needed ! In accepting – O GodI am yours – what do we need ? Any way kindly keep reading variouspostings and I am sure we will change our view point. Keep observingalso. Tell me with the above narration, can there be a simpler thingto do ? (Did not Mike also say so ? ) .

For those Sadhaks who have supported their arguments by referingGita 6:25 and Patanjali Yoga Darshana and have insisted fordispassion / step by step slow process / need for purification ofAntahkarana /need for quietening the mind etc,- let me state that inGita AT LEAST 25 different methods of Paramatma Realisation havebeen described and explained by Lord Krishna for the benefit ofHumanity at large. Each method has got its own characteristics, ownspecific process, own requirement of time, own way of achieving, ownindividuality ! ! ! Verse 6:25 is not applicable to all the methodsof Realisation - it is applicable to only Dhyaan Yoga. (Meditation).

The statement in a response/query that - "There is no other way ofQuietening of Mind" is neither correct nor of any importance toSelf ( Embodied Soul) who can at any point out of time can accept orrevise his existing acceptance/assumption to not only - MERE TOGIRDHAR GOPAL but also to DOOSARO NA KOI ! ! ! That is a simple anddirect power of YOU - the SELF- the embodied JEEVA ! It turns -indeed- the world upside down ! ! !How does it matter if mind is quite or fickle like a monkey ? ( Whatdo you say Mike ? )

These AT LEAST 25 or more methods are broadly grouped "power wise"into three Yogas,- Jnana Yoga, Bhakti Yoga and Karma Yoga. Undereach of these three yogas there are many "independent individualmethods". Similarly from style/process wise, these ParamatmaRealisation methods have been grouped under two broad parts. Thosemethods which require aid of body/mind etc. are called "KaranSapeksha" Methods. Those methods which do not require any aid frombody/mind/intellect etc. instead require only SELF are called "KaranNirapeksha" Method. Under each of these two broad categories againthere are many "independent individual methods" We are at themoment discussing one or two of such Karan Nirapeksha Methods. Whilereference of Gita 6 : 24 is pursuant to one of the Karan SapekshaMethod viz Dhyaan Yoga (Meditation). Need for Purification ofAntahkarana, quietening of Mind , step by step slow process etc isneeded in that particular Sapeksha Saadhans AND NOT IN in NirapekshaSaadhans. In Nirapeksha sadhans the time required is much muchlesser. If you have intense desire, then time requiredis "KSHIPRAM" – less than even one second ! In Dhyaan Yoga referredby Krishna Gopalji etc the time required may be even ages and ages !There you can become " Yoga Bhrashta" (fallen from effort) also.SUCH IS NOT THE CASE IN SAADHAN WHICH IS UNDER DISCUSSION. Hencereference of 6 : 24 here is wholly irrelevant.

We shall elaborately discuss this subject in more detail in the nextposting . For the time being Saadhaks may note that in Gitajivarious Karan Sapeksha Sadhans - AT LEAST 16 or more differentmethods – have in described in verses – 4:25 to 30 ( 13 methods inall), 4:34, 6:10 to 28 ( Dhyaan Yoga), 8: 8 to 13, 15 : 11 etc. ,

Similarly Karan Nirapeksha Saadhans - at least 10 or more differentmethods - have been described in Gitaji verses - 2:48, 2:52, 2:55,2;71, 3:17, 4:38, 5:12, 6:5, 8:14, 9: 26 to 28, 9 :30/31, 9:34,12:6/7, 12 ;8,, 12:9 to 12 :12 ( 4 methods), 18:62, 18:66 and 18 :73.

There is a lot of difference therefore in time, process,independence, requirements in each of the aforesaid AT LEAST 25methods of Paramatma Realisation. Hence no individual one verse isalways applicable to all the methods.

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

==================================================================Hari Om

3 articles have been posted on this Discipline of Actionlessness.

Conclusion easily is that SELF is at the top of pyramid. It isconnected with the world - entire world through assumed affinity withEgo.

SELF by way of acceptance / resolution generates the commands to Ego.

From Ego onwards there is regime of world/nature only. Ego toIntellect to Mind to Sense Organs ( and to Organs of action) tosubject matters of sense organs.

Body is a machine (inert) only- an automatic machine. This body isgoverned by Ego.

Ego is governed by SELF.

When SELF changes by change in acceptance - Ego ( Aham ) changes andentire operation of body changes.

Since body is an automatic machine - everything changes INSTANTLY themoment you (SELF) change acceptance / assumption.

How simple ! How practical ! !What time does it take to change assumption/acceptance from " I am ofthe world , world is mine, God also mine " to " Only God is mine,nothing else is mine" ?

Not even a second - instant!

With that your life changes!

Jai Shree Krishna.

Vyas N B

-------------------------------Jai Shri Krishna

The conclusion of this Discipline is that Self is connected with theworld through Ego which governs the body.

When Self connects with Ego in fact Self is connecting with entireBody and with entire world/ nature.

If you cut connection of Self with Ego - then disconnection withworld takesplace-in its entirety.

Upon "disconnection with world" - Self in its pure form only remainsbehind along with Paramatma ( God )..

Remain Impartial / Equi-poised / Equanimous in your work always.Neither like (Raag) nor dislike (Dvesha) anything. That is possibleonly when you do your "Duty" .

Duty your body automatically does if you ( self) "become" of God andrenounce assumed affinity with world.

When you do so you become "Ego-less" because Ego merely consistsof "me" & "mine" on one hand as representative of "SELF" and"likings" & "dislikings" on other hand as representative of theworld.

That is all "Ego" is made of.

So far your " Me" is Body-which is part of world. "Mine" isBody /Ego /World /car / house/ wife etc .Liking and Dislikings arefor worldly things.

Hence as of today everything in your ego is World only.

Change it now.

Accept "Me" to be the SELF-part of God ; and "Mine" to be only theGod and and nobody/nothing else

MERE TO GIRDHAR GOPAL, DOOSARO NA KOI

Only God is mine, nothing else is mine.

So "Me" is God. "Mine" is God."Likings & Dislikings" then get replaced by "Equanimity"-automatically - with the above acceptance.

God is always positioned in Equanimity. Another name of Equanimityis God.

So in your Ego only God is there !

Where is individual "Ego" now ? Gone for ever !

Where is "I" now ? Who are you now ?

I am God - Aham Brahmasmi !

What a gift Gitaji and Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj has given to theworld ! !

Narayan NarayanRajendra J BohraTHE MAGIC OPERATION OF DISCIPLINE OF ACTIONLESSNESS

When Lord Krishna stated in Gita 9:30/31 - "kshipram bhavatiDharamatma". -

(meaning that one who has rightly resolved/accepted -he instantly(kshipram) becomes sinless/stainless and pious soul- a Saint)-

the Lord in fact advocated the power of acceptance and Discipline ofActionlessness only.

Here in fact Lord used these words of instantly becoming virtuouswith reference to" a most sinful among all the sinners" person!

Instantly one becomes virtuous upon acceptance because basically weare part of Paramatma only- because we are basically stainless only.We become sinners only because of our affinity with the world, whichin fact is only a transitory period of life for sinner and all of us.As soon as we change our EGO and become of Paramatma , our affinitywith the world is wiped out. In case , we start hating sins andresolve/accept that we have to adore Paramatma only, we caninstantly become virtuous ( Dharamatma). In " EGO" where there isdesire for the world , there is inclination to Paramatma also.

If this inclination to Him is strengthened - desire for the world iswiped out and God Realisation takes no time !

Consider the following to understand as to how realisation takes notime.

Once you change your acceptance/assumption from existing " I am ofthe World" to " I am of God, only God is mine, nothing else ismine" -which change of assumption can take place in an instant- your roleends then and there.

THEN your body takes charge AUTOMATICALLY.

You remain actionless throughout - after change in acceptance.

Your body is an automatic machine like computer ( computer needs acommand only) Your body does not need SELF thereafter and it keepsdoing Karma suo motto strictly in accordance with your acceptance. Sofar the body was suo motto thinking about the world only because youhad assumed that " I am of the world" - so long as you don't changeyour assumption you always have problems of "not able toconcentrate" at the time of meditating/ naam japa etc.- Because ofworldly thoughts haunting your mind- arising suo motto andautomatically- uncontrollably ! !

When you change your assumption to. " I am of God " your bodystarts functioning AUTOMATICALLY in strict accordance with yourchanged acceptance and suo motto starts doing Duty only and yourmind rapidly moves towards Equanimity- which in fact is yournatural state only. It stops taking interest in the world ,because "SELF" has changed and gets withdrawn from the world- hencemind also withdraws and becomes "equanimous" ! !

Your intellect rapidly/ instantly stablises and your mind becomesthoughtfree very fast.

Thus your role ends the moment you have correctlyassumed/resolved/accepted.

It is precisely therefore Krishna said - " He should be considered aSaint for he has rightly resolved".

This is the magic of actionlessness ! !

Hari Om

THE MAGIC OF EQUANIMITY

"Eqanimity" is an actionless process and it enters the mind of asadhak. The last write up explained how AUTOMATICALLY ANDEFFORTLESSLY it enters the mind upon acceptance. Here is a write upwhich will prove the automaticness, the rapidity and theactionlessness involved in Paramatma Realisation by Equanimity andnext write up will similarly prove "YOUR BEING WITH PARAMATMA "effortlessly by resorting to Equanimity. Readers are welcome toobserve reg authentication of process by Gitaji, and otherscriptures, reg rapidness (instantness)and reg actionlessnessinvolved in the process. Serious Sadhaks may also take print outs andread again and again till the concept sinks in their mind. Then askQuestions. The question and answer session will then take divineshape. The best way to read this summary of writings of Swamiji - isto put yourself into an Equaminous /impartial zone, without any biasfor whatever you have so far understood/learnt/believed. Read mypresentations as a challenge to your mental equipment. Then MrConscience will take over your mind and you will smoothly understandthe topic./actionlessness involved therein and easiness/quickness ofthe path. Then you will understand why Krishna used "KSHIPRAM" wordin Gita 9:31. Basis of this Aricle is Gita 2:71.

Where does God reside ? The correct answer is …..in "Equanimity" ! We all want peace & happiness. We all areseeking peace & happiness for millions & millions of years. We arecoming & going, taking birth & dying in this world from timeimmemorial. We genuinely believe in God…. it is not that we do notbelieve in God at all. We are good people. But still we are nothappy. WHEN we are continuously walking on the path for millions & trillions of years THEN even if the path to God; to peace & happiness; to freedom is a very long path many of us would havereached the goal by now. At least we would have made some progresstowards our goal with reference to the distance to be covered in thepath. But it does not appear to us that we have made any progress.We are still fearful; tense; anxious; deficient, uncertain & struggling. We are running; running & running … may be becausewe find others also doing the same. Why this scenario has arisen ?

The simple reason is that path is not "straight". The pathis "round" . What progress can be made when you are running ona "round" path ? Where can you reach ? How then to make progress ?Simple answer is …… "Rise above the circle (round)" ! Whatis "circular" ? The relativity/ absence of absolute / "duality" isroundness ! With every pleasure, pain is associated. Whatevercomes, goes. Whatever begins, ends. Whatever rises, sets. Everyhappiness; pleasure is relative & temporary. Hence you seekpermanent happiness & peace… an absolute & not relative peace & happiness. So the circle is "dualities". How to rise abovethe "dualities" of pleasure & pain; health & disease; gloom & gaiety;profit & loss; praise & criticism; affluence & poverty; victory & defeat; birth & death, good & bad, right & wrong, fame & ill fame….. & so on ? Answer is "Equanimity" (Samata) !

"Equanimity" consists of doing your all Karmas in an equanimousmanner. In order to do Karma with Equanimity you need to eliminateindividual likings (Raag) & dislikings (Dvesha) as the primemotivators of your Karmas. In other words the prime motivator orreason of your Karmas should not be "desire" but should beyour "duty". We have already explained in previous write up as to howIMMEDIATELY upon your ACCEPTANCE , the body starts doing DUTY onlyAUTOMATICALLY, EFFORTLESSLY.

MAGICAL AND AUTOMATIC OPERATION OF EQUANIMITY

"Only that person who is Nishkaam (desireless); Nirahankar (Egoless);Nispruha (fearless; carefree) and Nirmam (Mamataless) ……. getspermanent & divine peace & happiness" (Gita 2/71)

· WHEN you practice Equanimity THEN you eliminate the very rootcause of desires, the likings & dislikings (Raag & Dvesha).· WHEN you relinquish Likings & Dislikings THEN youbecome "desireless" (Nishkaam).· WHEN you become desireless THEN your Intellect stabilises.· WHEN your Intellect stabilises THEN Mr. Conscience awakens in youto take charge. You acquire Discrimination. You fix the goal ….Freedom, Liberation, God Realisation ! From Conscience (Viveka)arises the sense of "Duty". From Conscience arises "Fearlessness".· WHEN your Intellect stabilises THEN your Karmas start gettinggoverned by your "duty" and not by your desires.· WHEN your Karmas are governed by "duty" THEN the "sense ofdoership" in you gets extinguished.· WHEN the "sense of doership" in you gets extinguished and thereare no "likings or dislikings" THEN your Ego automatically getsextinguished because Ego consists only of likings and dislikings andsense of doership. You become Egoless (Nirahankar).· WHEN you do your "duty " with no desires THEN youbecome "Nirmam". Your "mineness" is gone because when you do yourduty with no desires you are in fact indulged in "service". It is alaw that "service destroys mamata (mineness)".· WHEN you do your Karmas as a part of duty without expectinganything in return THEN you become "fearless" (Nispruh).· As a combined effect of all the above you do not have any of thefollowing:-* D esire "to get" something;* Desire to live* Fear of death* Tendency "to do" something.

· WHEN there is no Raag/Dvesha; no sense of doership & noorientation towards the result, THEN the Karma immediatelybecomes "Sattwik" Karma as per Gita.· WHEN your Karma is "Sattwik" and when you do not do a Karma with asight on the results THEN your "Karma" becomes "Akarma" within themeaning of Gita. Your Karmas then cease to give you results.· WHEN there are no results THEN the "CHAIN" or the Bondage ofaction & reaction of Karma & Result gets broken and you are free.This is Liberation/Jeevan Mukti/Kalyan/Salvation/Freedom/Moksha.Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B------------------------------

Hari Om

In the last Article I had explained the effortless and instantprocess of Acceptance , then automatic process of your doing yourduties, then automatic process of entering of Equanimity into yourmind and then automatic process of your getting Fearless, Egoless,Worryless and Mamataless. Hence you became eligible to invoke Gita2:71 - automatically _ JUST BY ACCEPTANCE ! IN "KSHIPRAM TIME" ! Nowthis write up makes you relaxed in the loving arms of your Daddy-Paramatma !

DISCONNECTION / LIBERATION

You are "connected" with this world through "Ego" only because "Ego"controls & gives command to Intellect in the form of Likings;Dislikings; self gratifying and desire driven Karmas (Buddhi).Intellect controls & gives commands to "Mind" (Mann). "Mind" controlssense organs (eyes, ear, skin, tongue, nose). Sense organs areengaged in their subject matters (Eyes to the form; ears to thesound ; tongue to the taste; skin to the touch; nose to the smelletc.) The world consists of such subjects matters; activitiestherein & people engaged therein. The "world" has nothing else.

Now Ego controls your intellect. WHEN your Karmas are based on thebasis of your "duty" & not on the basis of your desires THEN Your"Intellect" has no choice but to get stabilised; to get fixed; to getfocussed to your goal ... Liberation; freedom from sorrow. YourIntellect gets free time because it is not engaged in transferringcommands of "Ego" to "Mind". It has nothing to "instruct" the Mindregarding "the world". The Intellect loses interest in the world.

Your Mind is servant of your Intellect. WHEN Intellect has no commandreceived from "Ego"- (Ego gives command ) THEN it cannot provide anycommand to your mind. Your mind then loses interest in the senseorgans & the subject matters of sense organs. "Mind" then startsthinking in terms of "Gyaan" (knowledge); "Bhakti" (Devotion) & "Varaigya" (detachment). No body neither the Self; nor the Ego ;nor the Intellect nor the Mind remains interested in the worldlysituations/circumstances/happenings/positionings; in the worldlypeople; and in the worldly activities. They remain connected withthe world but in an "equanimous" manner i.e. physically but not byEgo, Mind & Intellect .... Only through "Duty".

Once the disconnection with the world arises in your Mind as you areno more impacted by the dualities thrown by the world before you inthe form of pleasure & pain, happiness & sorrow, victory & defeat,fame & ill-fame, health & disease, praise & criticism, good andbad, right & wrong, birth & death etc.

WHEN you are not impacted at all by the dualities. THEN you are saidto be Liberated !

WITH YOUR DADDY

"Ego" consists only of "Raag" & "Dvesha". It gets manifested in theform of "sense of doership" WHEN all three are gone THEN your "Ego"starts getting extinguished. WHEN the "Ego" is gone THEN the sense ofindividuality ("Jeevahood") is gone & "the connection" with the worldis gone. This Universe contains only 3 elements. Jeeva (You, thepure You); Jagat (the World) and Jagdish (the God). WHENJeeva "disconnects" with Jagat. THEN what remains behind is Jeeva & Jagdish. That is the end of the path. That is your goal. That isthe real purpose of getting human birth.

It is exactly why the God has time and again in the Gita statedthat "I am equanimous", "I am equal to all creatures". When youpractice equanimity, you are in fact trying to become equal toGod. As you start realising and experiencing more & more that allthe things made by God are "equanimous" you become more & moreenthusiastic (take any example, Sun, Fire, Water, Air, and Earth -all are equal to all. Any one who touches fire, burns his fingerswhoever he may be. Any one who drinks water, quenches his thurstwhoever he may be)

With your Intellect already stabilised, you start enjoying yourcompany with "equanimity" WHEN you are continuously indulged inequanimity THEN in fact you are continuously with your Father, theGod.

It is then that "Shraddha", "Bhakti" & "Prem" in that order arise inyou because you start feeling clearly as to how your Daddy - God isalready sitting in the same "Equanimous" state and controlling theworld effortlessly through mother Nature. You start believing thatyou are part of God. You start seeking Him. You start admiringHim. You start glorifying Him. You start loving Him. You startunderstanding Him. You start singing his praises - so that you maybecome Him.

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B--------------------------------JaiShri Krishna,

"Peace" means - to become "mentally and physically quite", not to doanything

WHEN we have relationship with an activity

THEN we have relationship with the World/Nature

WHEN there is relationship with the world

THEN there is unrest/lack of peace/sorrow/Bondage

WHEN connection with world is continuous and unrest, lack of peaceincreases

THEN a velocity to do karmas develops in you to remove the unrest,get peace but again through world only

Thus a vicious circle forms. Your relationship with activity keepsstrenghthening.

WHEN you act with a "nishkaam bhaav" (desireless motive)

THEN velocity of doing karma in you starts getting eliminated

WHEN velocity is gone

THEN you get established in Equanimity

WHEN you get established in Equanimity

THEN peace generates in you

WHEN peace generates in you

THEN you have two options, to enjoy that peace or to renounce thatpeace

WHEN you renounce that peace (that is don't get impacted by thatpeace or don't enjoy (bhog) that peace

THEN you realise Paramatma (Gita 6:3)

So the process starts with nishkaam bhaav - which is effortless andactionless !!

By "activity" in - equality arises. By "in-activity", Equanmityarises - without any efforts of any sort whatsoever.

Once you are equanimous, you are as good as Paramatma. You remainseparate from the world having no mental connection. No desires.Only Duty. You are free, you are liberated, you are MAST (blissful).You then attain permanent bliss - self proven, automatic,activityless, prideless, egoless, PEACE .(Shaant Ras).

Narayana NarayanaRajendra J BohraHari Om

As indicated by Lord Krishna to Arjuna in Gitaji 9:30/31 and asgreatly simplified by Swamiji Shri Ramsukhdasji, one can realiseParamatma instantly, at this very moment.

The topic "Discipline of Actionlessness" undoubtedly is the gift ofSwamiji (Maharajji) to the world at large, however as indicatedearlier much background is needed for a deeper dive into thissubject. Mostly everything presented is from Swamiji's books /lectures. Let us get a flavor of this divine work by starting withcontemplating on some thoughts / insights on "Into a Peaceful Zone."

INTO A PEACEFUL ZONE

1. If we are quiet we are positioned in God. "Peace" is the causein realizing God (Gita 3/6). "Peace" comes to us by "disconnectionwith world". It is a law that every disconnection generates instantpeace, even if it is disconnection of waste from the body (Gita12/12).

2. World is moving away from us continuously, without anyrest. "Momentum" never remains permanent. "Positioning" can remainpermanent. "Change" in world is dependent upon an "unchangeable"platform which is "Self". "Connection with world" is temporarywhereas, "Disconnection with world" is permanent. The ultimatespiritual discipline is – "momentum-less; "Action-less"; "Peaceful.

3. "Peace" is existing effortlessly and automatically. We only haveto "disconnect" with the element which generates unrest viz. "me"and "mineness" with the body & the world.

4. In the element called "God" – there is neither "action"nor "matter". "To do" is also an "actionNot to do" is also anaction. We don't have to either "do" or "not do". We don't have tobe concerned with "availability" or "absence" of any matter/worldlything. Simply "Inner Silence". There is no thought even of God inthe ultimate stage. "Na Kinchidapi chintayet" (Gita 6/25).

5. To realise God, we have to leave "labour". We have toadopt "rest", quiteness. We have to accept peace. "To acceptPeace" means – to experience our automatic, obvious, self-proven,effortless, natural positioning into Element called "God" or elementcalled "Self". "To experience" – means we have to firmly believe itis so.

6. "Self" has no capacity "to act". "Thinking" is an act of mind andnot of "Self". "Self" can only accept or reject, associate ordisassociate. Since in "Self" there is no "activity" – thereforeonly "Self" realizes God.

7. If we are "thinking (Chintan)", you are positioned in the worldbecause world is existing only in our thoughts. It is appearingas "existing" – only because we pay respect to it. We like to seeit as "existing" – because we are "existing" and we feel thatthe "connection" with world generates Peace and Happiness. Butthe world is constantly changing. It is "Asat" (unreal). There isno "present" in the world. The "future" is getting convertedinto "past" every fraction of a second.

8. "Thoughtless" or "Peaceful" state, while being fully awake, ispossible, and it is easy, but we must have "willingness" .

9. We can live without "thoughts" as we are in Deep Sleep."Thoughts" are always in respect of that element which is "non-existing". "Present" can be never a subject matter of "thought" –it is subject matter of "action" or "inaction". Only "past"and "future" can be subject matter of "thought". Both do not exist.

10. As "thought" is always about an element which "does not exist"and as there is no existence of "world" – disconnection with worldleads us to a thoughtless state. This disconnection is notphysical. It is by "Self" while fully awake. This disconnection iseither by "rejection" by the "Self" of unilaterally made connectionwith the world or by "acceptance" of that element whichis "present".

Sadhaks now can ask questions on the material shared so far. Theymust come out with doubts if any on the above – so thatdeliberations are swift and productive.

Pranaam

Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B-

Shree HariRam Ram

Swamiji has written extensively on this subject based on his 80years deep and intense study of the Gita, Ramcharitra Manas andother scriptures. He has summarized the essence of these texts andboldly stated quoting scriptures that realizing God is not likeacquiring things of the world that require effort. God cannot berealized through activity and effort (i.e. involvement ofmind/body/intellect). Due to the vastness of this topic, only onepoint is being addressed -

Swamiji has emphasized having a relationship with Bhagwaan, and thatrelationship is not through some practice or effort. A relation willchange only by acceptance at the Self (Atma) level. I belong toKrishna and Krishna is my very own. This body is not me, nor mine.

Until this acceptance doesn't happen at the Self level, nothing willbe gained. We may study or do as many different spiritual practicesas possible, but all it will do is bloat our ego, and in the endnothing will be gained. We will only attach another relation that Iam so knowledgeable, I have the best Guru, I have read the Gitathree times over. etc. etc.

Acceptance by Self is best, that is why it is called "karannirpeksha" i.e. only through the predominance of discrimination(between real and unreal). The reason is that the essence of God isbeyond any action i.e. no activity can reach the essence of God.Therefore it is "immediate" on acceptance, and there is "no effort"required - simply acceptance, just like earlier example of newlymarried wife's acceptance of husband.

Meera DasRam Ram

Sir,Mike stated that the simplest method is to quiten the mind andsettledown, go insideto the divine. This is a fature that everyone has the conscience withand not divine. This conscience can be dulled and if we nurture it itdirect the ways of common good to all, a clear conscience.Thefeature is simple and true, but none can visit divine so easily. Thesupreme is beyond human vision and the presence of Him is understoodonly by the effects of His creation, which we call nature.Thank you,Paul ponniah..-

Slowing of mind or dhairya or dhiir -gambhiir is involuntary resultof self realization by cutting down branches of ignorance by repeatedcontemplation or practice of purification of thoughts. With increasein purity, it moves up from specialization to generalization. Whenspecializations are immersed in generalization or abstract truth,movement of mind ceases. There is no other way of quietening of mind.

Bhagway Gita says, Urdhva Moolam, Adhah Shaakhaam as the structure ofawareness of self or the origin. The general or Mool or rootknowledge is on the top, and as it is divided into branches flowingdown, these create perspectives by differring points of view andresult in conflicts. So you have growing different subjects insciences, technologies and politics in conflicts with one another.These branching actions are called Subjects or Vishay or poison ofmind.

How does the branches first come to exist? What is the structure ofthe tree of creation? Mool or general is void with infinitepossibilities. RamCharit Maanas says, Tryah Shool Nirmoolanam ShoolPanim. This means, the origin of the three branches or TriShool (Sat,Raj Tam guna) is NirMool (without origin). Shiva is holding theNirMool (without origin), from which the TriShool is originated. Theword Kcchatria has meaning in the word itself. Kchhatria is gettingrid of the three Guna and immerse into Brahman. Kchhay = loss of,Triya = three Gunas. Arjun was Kchhatria as He was enduring aprocess of understanding to root of knowledge or the generalknowledge from the war of MahaBhaarata (Dharma Yuddha) wheninteraction amonst three branches or dharma of Sat, Raj, Tam gunatook place.

RamCharit Maanas saysRamam Kaamari Shaivayam Bhav Bhay Harnam Kal MatteBh Singham,Yogindram, Zyan Gamyam, Guna Nidhi Vigitam, NirGunam NirVikaram.

It says step by step movement of self realization in a prayer to SriRam 'Ramam Kaamari Shaiyam i.e., Sri Ram who is cleaning from ourmindunsuitable desires;Bhav Bhaya Haranam i.e., removing fear of the world and"Kaal Mattebh Singham i.e., acting like loin in removal of theconstraints of time; and then,Yogiindram, Zyan Gamyam = getting our mind introspective, and let itbe moving/progressing in right direction with logic and selfawareness without assumptions 'Guna Nidhi Vijitam i.e., conqueringocean of theGunas, NirGuman, Nirvikaram i.e., becoming NirGuna and without error.

RegardsK G(Krishna Gopal)--I am happy that good things are discussed in this area. Itseems that we need to do saadhana repeatedly. Sri Krishnasuggested 'sanaihi sanairuparamet -- should through gradual practiceattain tranquility and fixing the mind on God. 'Yatoyato nischarati'he should repeatedly fix it on God.The PatanjaliYogasutra suggests 'Abhyaasa vairaagybhyam 'practice and dispassion in yoga. Lord Krishna also suggested 'Abhyaasenatu Kounteya Vairaagyenach gruhyate' practice and dispassionare necessary in saadhana to the saadhakaas or people practicingKarana Nirapeksha saadhana.

"golianjaneyulu"

---

Hari Om

This refers to the observations of Sadhaks on the posting made sofar.

Reg Prabhakarji's observation that "practice" is the essence , I muststate that Gitaji does not to any "practice" to be resortedparticularly in the Discipline of Actionlessness, where eventhe "vilest sinner" becomes virtous( Dharmatma) and secures lastingpeace in a "kshipram" time (time which is less than even a second-instantly). He so becomes merely by "acceptance/resolution" whichagain is instant.

Once tere is acceptance, all other processes right upto ParamatmaRealisation are AUTOMATIC, SPONTANEOUS, EFFORTLESS and ACTIONLESS !Here neither any eyes are to be closed (Meditation) , nor any nose isto be pressed (Pranayaam), nor any ears are to be closed(nididhyasan) nor any tedious procedure is warranted. All startswith an acceptance by SELF and in no time you have achieved thepurpose of human life.

Regarding observations of Krishna Gopalji ( KG ) let me state thatonly in human birth a Jeeva can change his "SVABHAAV " and in noother form of life. Jeeva can change it in an instant , if he iswilling to change. That is why only "vilest sinner" becomes Dharmatma(Gita 9:31)

Mike Keenor has indeed captured the entire subject in just onesentence - "Simplified says, quieten down the mind, go within" -that is divine. That indeed is amazing. Absolutely precise andaccurate . Thanks - please keep observing.

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B-

Reply to query of Mahalaxmiji

Jai Shri Krishna

Who has stated and where that devotional service, arti, cooking foodfor Krishna etc are inactions? We have not even touched upon thesepoints so far. We are indeed happy that you are indulged into thoseactivities. But here is a method of acceptance which makes your eachand every activity - not only cooking for Lord Krishna , or doingArti or discussing about His pastimes - but wHATEVER else you aredoing also equally that effective and productive ! . 24 Hours aday! That is possible only when you" become" of Him. You " become"of Paramatma by accepting - " Only He is mine, Nothing else is mine".So where is the contradiction? What is the query?

We have not stated that devotional acts are bad or useless any where?From which posting the doubt has arisen in you? . However if you donot accept your exclusive relationship with Him , then the actionsreferred by you will only be fresh /new good/ sattvik Karmas . Theywill create Bondage for you, they still will give you results. Youwill not be able to get freedom from Bondage unless you haveexclusively accepted Krishna as yours. ( Doosara na Koi- Nothing elseis mine) Thereafter whether you do Arti or cook food for Him or notwill not be material - your each and every action will be a divyakarma - because SELF has changed ! When you will see a movie thenalso you will be deemed to be a devotee/ bhakta by Krishna- but onlywhen you accept what Swamiji has preached.24 hours a day - 365/366 days a year you shall be devotee of Krishnathen only- not otherwise. Be sure on that. Because then your falseself also remains in existence. Unless you become of Krishna - thetrue self remains under glove/cover only ! !

A traditional Indian Wife never speaks the name of her husband. Doesthat mean that she is not of her husband? How she is not of herhusband? She has "accepted" ! Now whether she utters his name ornot, cooks food for him or not, how does that matter- once she has"become" of her husband ? Isn't it?

Hence once you have "become" of Paramatma by "actionless/effortlessacceptance" then only the actions stated by you will become "divyakarmas" ( Divine actions) - not before that.

We are all trying so far to tell you the importance of thatacceptance !

Narayana NarayanaRajendra J Bohra--Priy Sadhaks,

This is very crucial question. It is the aim for all of us. Accordingto Swamiji Attainment of god is really effortless. Noteit "EFFORTLESS". Taking that clue I tried to see what effortlessmeans. We may feel so many things happening in our body which areeffertless. Therefore I feel attainment & presence by experiencingheart beats in me and i feel its gods work going on. If trere is workthen there must be some one doing it ? Taking that lead I feel God'spresence in me and similarly in everybody. Comtemplate on this. maygod bless all of us by making us feel the all pervading effortlessly.

Thanx

Raja Gurdasani

-----------------------------QUESTION: Kindly elaborate as to why accepting, rejecting,associating and disassociating are not actions as the item 6 belowseems to imply.6. "Self" has no capacity "to act". "Thinking" is an act of mind andnot of "Self". "Self" can only accept or reject, associate ordisassociate. Since in "Self" there is no "activity" – thereforeonly "Self" realizes God.Jay Shree Krishna.Hemendra Parikh--

Hari Om

To the question as to how there is no action involved in acceptanceor rejection, or love (Prem), devotion, desireless motive, (nishkaambhaav), remembrance (smriti),realisation, equanimity, experience,rejection, association, surrender, belief, faith, trust etc.

- the answer is that there is no "tool" - Ego, Intellect, Mind, fivesenses e.g eye, ear, nose, skin, tongue and organs of action such ashands, legs etc - involved there. No tool at all !

There is no movement of performance involved in acceptance etc.

An "action" is first conceived in the mind. The previous body(form/place of existence) of every action is "mind" only. On accountof its nature of understanding the skill of performance, thisexpansion into the activity pertains to the mind. Mind is "the seedof those actions". The fruits or result of any action thereforeoccurs only to this mind. Actions exist thus first in the mind inthe form of imagination or will or sankalpa/desire..

"The seed of action" - is the movement of mind or volition.

Further the action must give results. There should then be a causefor action. There should be a desire/will existing in the mind to getactivated and attain movement or volition.

Now in acceptance say of a Paramatma by a person, of a father by ason there is no involvement of ego, intellect, mind, hands, legs,eyes etc.. Mind is not involved because there is no knowledge fieldin which mind can travel i.e. can acquire movement or volition. Whennothing is known then what thoughts can arise, what activity mind canindulge into? What will or imagination can occur in respect of thatelement about which nothing is known by the mind- which is beyondmind? What is thinkable there? Nothing in fact. There is no causeinvolved for movement or volition of mind in acceptance, surrender,belief, faith, trust,devotion, prem etc.

Entry into the mind of any reflections or experiences or conscienceor realisation or pure knowledge or equanimity and automatic arisingof any remembrance etc are not actions of mind. There the mind is amirror only. What is action of water when sun gets reflected there?What action do you do when someone enters your house? It is action ofother not of you.

The direct experience of all of us also suggests that mind is notinvolved in acceptance or love etc. What kind of mind a child canboast of? Thoughts? How easily and how solidily he accepts hismother. Does he know as to how his mother is his mother? What can hismind can think about when he does not know anything? If he canaccept - then it gets proved that mind etc are not involved inacceptance.

No knowledge, power, action, capacity, ability, labour, learning,education, practice, process, art, time etc is needed in acceptance.Only SELF is needed. What time does it take to accept? Not even afraction of a second- in an instant !

When acceptance is made by self, then there is no forgetfulness. Itis absolute. Even without remembering one remembers always that he ismarried, or he is a brahmin (caste) or he is Indian/American orson/wife of So and So . Acceptance by SELF is that powerful !

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

----Shree Hari-

Mahalaksmi Dasi,

It is clear that you have a great desire to be at one with Lord.Is that not wonderful? There are many people so caught up in thehurly-burly of life who do not give such things a second thought.That desire you have will ensure your success, never loose sight ofit. Also you have come to this site and asked for direction. Manylikeme could well have used such assistance, but did not know of it.I started looking at Bhagavad Gita :12 in response to your question,started to pick out a verse or two, then realized the whole chaptershould be read.You will have noticed a common theme in the Sadhaks responses,simplified says, quieten down the mind, go within.

With Respect and Divine Love,

Mike(Mike Keenor)--

NEW QUESTION:

my respect and gratitude to all in this forum,I have some questions on the initial material, which I pray I canask in a clear way, without any prejudice. To begin...#6... "Self" has no capacity "to act". "Thinking" is an act of mindand not of "Self". "Self" can only accept or reject, associate ordisassociate. Since in "Self" there is no "activity" – thereforeonly "Self" realizes.

My question arises from my own training in BhagavadGita/spiritual discipline. I have always understood that we have amaterial body, and ego, which are separate from the true ego andspiritual form, which is now covered over. The material body iscovering, or "fitting" over the true self much like a glove....whichtakes the perfect contour of the original form. The true selfperforms actions in relation to the Supreme....these actions are inthe form of devotional activities, including but not limited to suchthings as offering arati to the Lord, cooking food and makingofferings on the altar to the deities/pictures of the Lord, (or thealtar within the heart), reading, discussing, etc. about the Lord.In other words, this activity which we are here engaging in, thisdiscussion about the nature of the soul and it's connection with theSupreme, would be classified, according to my understanding, asactivity of a true spiritual nature. It is not inactivity. This isnot the same as sitting and writing about a person of the materialworld, as it is centered around the Supreme Lord. Hence, the qualityof the activity is what would clarify it as a true spiritual actionof the soul, or a mundane activity relating only to the body. Bhag.Gita 5.6 substantiates this..."Unless one is engaged in thedevotional service of the Lord, mere renunciation of activitiescannot make one happy. The sages, purified by works of devotion,achieve the Supreme without delay." Please clarify.

Sincere thanks, Mahalaksmi Dasi

-

To quieten the mind and enjoy freedom thoughts occur to all providedpeople develop vairagya and practice in that direction. Really hardis that but krishna says it is possible through the repetion andwill.In this process some achieve siddhi and some a little late andsome never.This is so depending upon their mind set up anddetermination.More number of people are afraid to do this. It is likeyoga master getting a fundamental response guruji if i close my eyesi am afraid there is pitch darkness and i cannot stand.guruji encourages no. be not afraid slowly you hit upon light andthat is om and that is the manistation of the god either in form orsound. proceed . experience has no substitute in this direction . Itis like krishna saying tasmat yuddhyasva bharata. Here bharata saysdeeep interest in self because nation and the king are one's own.om samprabhakar c l-Shram (effort), Pari-s-shram ( act of reducing effort) and Ashram(effortlessness) are different condition of work in an environmentvis-a-vis ones' state of nature (swabhaav). Any work is achievedeither by effort (shram), or by technique (parisshram), or gets doneby doing nothing (ashram). It all depends on how is the work againstswabhaav, called effort or shram like pushing cart uphill. By goinguphill by using automobile or car, is a parishram (shram but in adifferent way) because it is an act of overcoming effort bytechnique. And finally, ashram which is effortlessness by gravity(natural) pull of cart from higher altitude to lower altitude.Applying this principle to living being, it is natural for monkey tojump from tree to tree, and men can just walk. It applies in same wayin organizations. Thus, a work is difficult or easy is not aboutphysical sciences but depends on nature (swabhaav) of hose doing it.

When Sri Krishna says about Ashram or Varna (color, personality traits) -Ashram (in effortless state), He means it by individuals' self nature, and condition of effortlessness or dharma. Sri Krishna said to Arjun that His fighting war is certain no matter what, as it is natural or involuntary action of Kchatria. He thus had no choice, and Bhagwat Gita only explained it how the nature works inside every living and non-living being, and creating illusion of choices.Einstein also came to same conclusion in studying relativity, and position of observers (points of views) limiting the vision.

RegardsK G(Krishna Gopal)-------------------------------Kindly elaborate as to why accepting, rejecting, associating and disassociating are not actions as the item 6 below seems to imply. Jay Shree Krishna.

Hemendra Parikh---By some strange coincidence I became member of this group. After becoming member, I scanned through the Gita Talk web site and was really surprised to see the depth of answers given to various questions. I am genuinely interested in knowing about the Discipline of Actionlessness. And I am looking forward to it. I totally agree with Vyas N. B. that such deliberations can yield results only in a serious and sarcasm free environment. Infact, personally I don't mind being called "blind" also so long as I receive the light from such learned battery of contributors. May be some day my blindness also will get cured (Like Mike's Coal basket). I liked also immensely the replies given by Mike Keenoor, Mira Dass, Naga Narain and of course Vyas N.B. If permitted by moderator, I will also like to present my doubtsbefore this forum.

Murli Manohar Purohit-Question: How does one who is not able to immediately feel the Lord's presence rise to that level? What is the path of attaining what some individuals have without effort, and how is it that they have this? many thanks, Mahalaksmi Dasi

-Please keep trying various Yog and the efforts will accumulate to achieve Moksh if not in this life then carried to the next, according to Lord krishn.Dr BalMukund Bhala.--To suggest that only "siddha" can answer such high level question is a form of very low level sarcasm. Even Swamiji in his last Will referred himself as sadhak only. Such remarks discourage and deter the genuine and willing participants to share their thoughts and should be cut off by Moderator himself at the outset or words like blind leading blind.

Long list of other adjectives such as "old conservative practice of arranged marriage" can be misconstrued or misunderstood, and therefore must be avoided.

I am myself a humble reader and follower of the ways which Swamiji has indicated. I would be happy if whole of my life I can remain sadhak only. Mira Dassji, Vyasji, Pratapji, G Vaidyanathanji, Mike Keenorji , Sharmaji, Bohraji, Naga Narayanji, KG , Adrienji, Papruniaji etc - they all and many others are contributing so seriously in deliberations , why can't we learn from them? I request Vyasji to proceed with his oblations in this Jnana Yagya- undeterred, fearlessly. We all are sadhaks only and love to remain that way only. Of course we will ask questions .

Ramchandra--

Dear Sadaks,Prahalad and Durva in childhood attained divinity.Thirugnanasambader attain when 5 years old. Vaishnavite Alwar Namalwar attained divinity at the age as a child crawling. HOW? Sadaks we all know that life span does not end when body dies. The soul along with 5 kosas and vasanas has to enter a womb to fulfil it`s vasanas, perform it`s karmas etc.

The above said saints already attained , so it is effortless to them as they already put in efforts in earlier births. Examples: Devaki and Vasudev were in Sanyasa Marg in earlier birth. When Sri Vishnu appeared they asked boon that Bagavan to be their child and so it happened. Jada Bharatha was Bhathayogiswar in 1st birth, desired to rare a deer and was born as deer 2nd birth and in 3rd birth he attained moksha. But in his 3rd birth he was born with divinity without effort.

Vaali in Sri Ramayan was killed by Sri Rama. But Vaali realized divinity at his last breath after Sri Rama discussion attaining liberation gives moksha effortlessly.NamasteB..Sathyanarayan

--SitaRam SitaRam ki jai.

Naam japa (name recitation) open many doors. Have full faith in God and japa of His name, all the time; whenever you have a chance. You will see things will come out in your favour and your faith will strengthen and you will feel the presence of God. Sher Agrawal

-------------------------

Question: How does one who is not able to immediately feel the Lord's presence rise to that level? What is the path of attaining what some individuals have without effort, and how is it that they have this? many thanks, Mahalaksmi Dasi---Hari Om

The humanity at large, for all times to come in future, shall remain indebted to Param Shraddheya Swamiji Shri Ramsukhdasji Maharaj who by his extensive research and power of simple expression proved that if you are willing, you can realise Paramatma instantly- just as told by Lord Krishna to Arjuna in Gitaji 9:30/31.

The Geeta Talk Moderator has quite appropriately captioned the topic for discussion as " Discipline of Actionlessness". This discipline undoubtedly is the gift of Swamiji (Maharajji - as we used to devotedly address him) to the world at large.

If the fellow sadhaks leave the shelter of sarcasm and become really serious in understanding the subject, I - with the help of Mira Dasji, Rajendraji Bohra and many other sadhaks (which I know are many) who have "really" studied the books of Swamiji - can take the lead in explaining this subject in 7/8 one page postings - maximum 10 ! But the condition is that there should be serious environment for understanding. There should be no sarcasm, no irrelevant questions, no funny arguments, no personal remarks, no hidden taunts, etc at least during these deliberations. I would love to attend to the counter queries of all the sadhaks provided they reflect a real desire to understand the topic, their observations genuinely point out to practical difficulties which they encounter in implementing the processes involved, the laws, principles and teachings of Swamiji. They must ask questions, that would encourage me and other contributors but without any personal sarcasm or giving titles like "siddha" etc. The sadhaks must for this purpose try to read the postings by positioning themselves into equanimity / impartial zone.. They must try to feel themselves separate from their mind and must not show any disrespect to Swamiji.

If Gita Talk Moderator permits me to do that, I shall first give the principles involved, then processes and different ways suggested by Swamiji (acceptance is one of the many - On this Discipline alone Swamiji must have given a dozen different methods) and then conclude. Nothing - except the translation and the presentation and of course compilation from his various books, discourses etc - shall be from my personal side. I am too small a sadhak to give views of my own on such serious matters. But I am definitely a ssdhak. All will be Swamiji - As it is ! Mistakes may or rather will ake place in my role but I will stop further if any dis-respect is hown towards the theory and practice involved in the subject or arcastical remarks are made just as a fun by any one.

Pranaam

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B-------------------------------Question: How does one who is not able to immediately feel the ord's presence rise to that level? What is the path of attaining hat some individuals have without effort, and how is it that they ave this? many thanks, Mahalaksmi Dasi---

My personal view is that this high level question can truly be nswered only by some one who is 'Siddha'. We as Sadhaks, can only e considered as blind leading a blind.

Notwithstanding what I have said above, I can only attempt to answer he question by saying something that our Gurus may have advised us n this connection. They give an example of a newly married bride. his young bride (as per our old conservative practice of arranged marriage) did not even know her husband before marriage. But after marriage, her husband becomes the most important person integral to her life. How did this happen instantly? The secret is that she has accepted this important relationship.

Similarly, per saint and Gita, if we accept a relationship with God and revere it, no further effort is required. Here, it may be important to caution that the best relationship may be that of "Master and Servant'. This helps to always remain in service of God. Although other relationships are also acceptable like Meera Bai accepted God as her husband, but those relationships are more difficult to carry forward.

A.H.Dalmia------------------------------

Questions: "How does, one who is not able to immediately feel the Lord's presence, rise to that level?What is the path of attaining what some individuals have without effort and how is it that they have this?"

Suggestion: You have to do nothing. It is like a mischievious child telling you that he can help. Your answer is if you want to really help, then just sit still, do not do anything.

Our mind is that mischievious child. It has a years of practice / habit of asking such smart questions. It has to be told to be quiet and let the experience happen. The questions stop the experience from happening. Mind has to be empty to have the experience. Once, the mind gets the taste of the experience, it will be ready to be quiet more often and finally surrender to the universal consciousness.

Or when such questions arise, ask yourself who is asking these question? Who wants to know? The mind may go silent....Try it. It is as simple or as tough as that.Best wishes

Sushil Jain--------------------------------

(Message over 64k, truncated.)

May 11, 2009

Shree Hari Ram RamNEW POSTINGHari OmThe biggest

obstacle in Karan Nirapeksha Sadhan is a human's habit of relying on

mind/intellect. It is my experience that one finds it very difficult to

"accept" that he is NOT mind. We have become too attached and habitual

of identifying ourselves with mind.A lot of discussion took

place in the past on the subject. In fact, our Mike Keenor also took

time to digest the same. But then, as we kept on insisting on the same,

and as Mike is himself a very serious sadhak, I think he grasped the

same, later on. I invite him to share his thoughts on the subject. His

views shall indeed be very relevant and very beneficial to our Brethren

because I now find that Narinderji Bhandari also has similar

difficulties. Many many others should be having similar difficulties.

May be that even Vasudev Sathyanarainji ! Such sadhaks are at the core

very serious and " quite pure by antahkarana" . But erroneously they

reconcile to the fact that: God Realisation is a lengthy process ! As

they think, so becomes the process !! Basically, the existence

of mind is for misery. ( i. e. productive of sorrow) ! The destruction

of mind is for happiness. Leading the reality of the mind to decay, let

one bring on the destruction of the mind. Know the mind as "existing",

which is supported by happiness and sorrow and very still only on the

cognition , " I am". It is the longing of the tree of worldly existence

at budding time.{ Legend has it that the Asoka tree longs for

the kicks of young ladies and the Bakula for the sprinkling of

mouthfuls of liquor at budding time just as pregnant women have

peculiar longings during pregnancy periods. When the tree of worldly

existence brings forth the diverse objects, it is the mind which arises

first, which, in turn, generates the world}They consider his

mind as "lost or destroyed" whom states of happiness and misery,

misfortune, pride, dullness and jubilation do not lead to difference in

nature/outlook. Thus in my notes to sadhaks , I insisted for

EQUANIMITY. Nothing "destroys" ( in fact neutralises) the mind as

decisively as does equanimity. Equanimity does not root out "noble

virtues" out of you. There is spontaneous expression of "Daivi Sampada"

( BG 16:1/3) in a liberated soul on account of good Vaasana-s . But

these do not bind the mind to worldly existence.Such a mind is ever

free.Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B --------------Namaste, Dear Ones!I want to clarify my own understanding with respect to Vyasji's post below."Sadhaks should

note that by "action" you cannot get Paramatma. It is a law. Whatever

be the "action" that you may do ! Hence "actionlessness" is MANDATORY.

Once you "accept" this fact, Gita will start looking new to you. Try it."As

I understand, no one can remain without actions, actions belong to

nature(body-mind), says Gita too! What is meant is that "doership" is

optional, actions are not! Being doesn't require a "personal doer"

to BE, and yet all "actors" and "actions" needed for Divine Play takes

place on the Grand Stage of Being(SELF-Existence-Absolute)!Thus, "actionlessness" is actions without being such a personal "doer". Namaskar........Pratap Bhatt--Hari OmSadhaks should note that by "action" you cannot get Paramatma. It is a law. Whatever be the "action" that you may do ! Hence "actionlessness" is MANDATORY. Once you "accept" this fact, Gita will start looking new to you. Try it.Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B-Shree HariRam Ram Swamiji says - Where our senses and intellect do not reach is Inner Silence. Inner Silence is beyond the intellect. Decisions are made by the intellect. Where there is no mind, senses or intellect is karan nirpeksh (without dependence of instruments). The essence is without instrument (karan rahit). There is nothing to be done there. No means are required to reach the essence - it is without instruments. This essence is Inner Silence free of instruments (karan nirpeksh). It is what IS. It is the foundation of everything - the root. Meera Das, Ram Ram ----narinder is beholden to Naarad N Maharshi jee for all the love contained in his words of advice ........................ whenever narinder reads Swami Ramsukhdas jee's words, the mind goes into a fast ....... and, there is Joy in narinder's heart, ............. that invariably happens because the words of a Realised Sage flow from the Innate Silence of His being ! .......... Blessed are the sadhakas, whose Minds bow in reverence at the feet of the Saints and the Sages .......... Nanak says this Bowing is the Way................. AUM narinder----------------------Shree Hari RAm RamNamaskar Ramchandraji... Welcome back ! Thank you for your beautiful submissions in Hindi over the past couple of months... particularly the poetry on Swamiji. Unfortunately we have no one right now who can translate such beautiful works... However we will certainly keep and translate in future... From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram PRIOR POSTINGAh, sadhaks........................ are any more words needed ................. ????????????? the words of Swami Ramsukhdas here are adequate to lead anyone into his own Being ..... ever free from any idea or dependence on the Other ! Is this not the Truth that the Swami himself is blessing us here with ! ? To renounce - no instrument is needed. It is done by the "Self" only. It is an easy and better path - "karan nirpeksh saadhan". ..............................................................AH ! Jai Jai Krishna .................. if , however the self finds inadequacy in these words ............... is unable to renounce the sense of Agency ( Doing )...............no need to worry ! ........ let the self follow the longer route of Yoga ................ Perhaps, Patanjali's Ashtang Yoga could be most appropriate , with the shalokas of the Lord's Song Celestial touching your Mind and Heart ! Step by Step By Step.................. into the realisation that you were indeed never the DOER ! And then.............. on realisation ................ One just laughs ! ... Laughter Happens ! AUM sweetest words ever ! ( .........below ).................. ! and , perhaps , amongst the fewest ! .......... for yet greater Joy, read the Swami's complete message ........... ................................................. " To renounce - no instrument is needed. It is done by the "Self" only. It is an easy and better path - 'karannirpeksh saadhan'............................."" .................................................................. ah !! a... h... u.... m ..................aum !!AUM narinder:Shree Hari:Ram RamSUMMARY : Whatever saadhan is done by the Self is "karan nirpeksh." There is no dependence on anything (instrument) or anyone. It is totally independent. The Real cannot be realised by the assistance of the unreal - it is realised by disconnection with the unreal. So separate your Self from the Unreal and you will realise the Self.For disconnection with Unreal and acceptance of the Real you do not need the assistance of any outside agency and results (success) will be quick. This is a very good discipline, free of risks "karan nirpeksh saadhan".Saadhan By The SelfWe have been discussing the topic of 'with and without the assistance of instruments' (karan saapeksh and karan nirpeksh). What you do and can do with your Self is karan nirpeksh (without the assistance of instruments) . For example your acceptance that God is mine, your belief in God, your decision not to harm or hurt anyone, decision not to lie, etc. These can all be done without the assistance of any instrument (body, person, place, etc.). You are totally independent to do these things. To attain God also you are totally independent. There is no dependence on anything or anyone.Being dependent on instruments there are chances of one falling down from his path of practice. The one who is not dependent on instruments cannot fall down. Not dependent on instruments is "independent saadhan" (Karan Nirpeksh) and being dependent on instruments is dependent saadhan (Karan Saapeksh). God realisation is not dependent on any instrument. It is done by the Self. It happens when you leave the dependence of all instruments. It cannot happen before.There are two methods of saadhan - (i) by doing and (ii) by not doing. There is no effort required in renunciation (not doing) of things what should not be done e.g. 'I will not hurt anyone', 'I will not lie', 'I will not abuse anyone', 'I' will not criticise anyone' - no capability is required, no effort is required.Renouncing is easier than doing. You get instant and endless peace (Gita 12:12). You have spoilt your habit - that is why it seems difficult. It is easy. It is tougher to lie than to tell the truth. You have to learn to lie, there is nothing to learn to tell the truth.Does it take a child any effort to go to his mother's lap? We are the children of God. We can easily go back to Him. We have accepted the things that have been given to us as ours and have forgotten the one who has given them to us. Only God is ours. The more neutral you are to the world the easier it is. You get sorrows only because of your acceptance of things that are not yours (Body, World) as yours and not accepting what is yours as yours (God).You hear these things in satsang - it is not for hearing only. It is for applying in your life. These are very helpful things for your salvation. People who do satsang must have the inner sentiments of renouncing the evil. To renounce - no instrument is needed. It is done by the "Self" only. It is an easy and better path - "karannirpeksh saadhan".Summary of Discourse by Swami Ramsukhdasji on June 16th, 1998 at 5 a.mRam Ram---PRIOR POSTINGHari OmThis refers to learned observations of Pratapji Bhatt on thesubject. I fully agree with him as well as Naga Narainji thatultimately it is Vedanta teachings which have to be the decidingfactors. Here the beautiful example given by Mike Keenor of thetwo birds in fact straight away comes from our Upanishads (Vedanta)only. I am sure we all are unanimous on one front that the essenceof all Vedas is in Upanishads, and essence of all Upanishads is inGitaji.. With this background I address your observations.Any science, in order to understand a subject, breaks the subjectmatter into parts. Vedanta and Gitaji also, breaks the variouscomponents of body, soul, world etc into parts. You will appreciatethat Gitaji defines/classifies Para and Apara Prakriti, Jeeva, Puresoul, mind, intellect, ego, body, Paramatma, world, Nature etc. intobasically two parts. Sentient and inert. Chetan and Jad. Sat andAsat. Not only Gita but entire Upanishads and Vedas also do so. Refer Gita'sfundamental principle " NASATO VIDYATE BHAVO , NAABHAVOVIDYATE SATAH' (Gita 2:16). There is no existence of Asat ( unreal). There isno absence of Sat( Real). Now all Vedas, Upanishads, Gita include Pure soul /Paramatma as Sat, Jeevatma in two parts - one part of Sat , another part of Asatdue to forming an affinity with Asat. Half this, half that say. That is Ego. InEgo when you remove ASAT part, you have broken the affinity with theworld/matter/nature/body. Only God or Self is remains. The intellect, mind, bodyfunctioning, actions, karmas all changeautomatically. It is a settled principle as per Vedanta thatIntellect, Mind, Chitta form part of "Subtle body". Ego is "causalbody" and remaining body like hand, eye, legs etc are part of "grossbody". (We should admire the precision with which our Scriptureshave broken the body into various segments). These threebodies in Upanishads have been called - "KOSHAS " . The nearest tothe Soul is Ego which, resides in CAUSAL BODY. Another name ofcausal body given in Upanishads is " AGYAANMAYA KOSHA' (IgnoranceZone). In ego as stated earlier Jeeva is sitting forming an affinitywith the matter. Hence ignorance lies not in mind but in Jeeva.Jeeva dispels the ignorance by breaking affinity with the world. MEAND MINE both reside in Ego . Likings and dislikings reside in Ego.How can "mineness" reside in mind? It resides in Jeeva not in mind.Jeeva is DOER. Not the mind. Jeeva suffers, the continuous cycle ofbirth and death. Jeeva goes to hell, heaven, etc. Not the mind orintellect or eyes, or ears. They are consigned to the flames themoment Jeeva leaves the body. The same mind stops functioning. Sameeyes stop seeing. It proves that the very basis of mind, intellectetc is Jeeva (Self). Hence the difference between Jeevaand Jagat is obvious. It is precisely therefore in Vedanta, so muchimportance has been given to CONSCIENCE (Viveka) ï¿½ whichDISCRIMINATES. We must discriminate. We cant reach anywhere if wedon't discriminate mind with self, sat and asat, jad( inert) andChetan ( sentient). When all Vedas do that, Upanishads do that,Gita does that, what is the problem in our doing that?Once it is clear that next to Soul is Ego - causal body. Ego controls Subtlebody and subtle body controls gross body ï¿½ then this concept put forwardbecomes easy to follow.The problem is that we don't classify. We have become too accustomedto identify ourselves with asat / with mind. Anything will come inmind only. Where else it can go in this body ? Even God Realisationwill come in mind only. So what? That does not make a machine, aninert tool, mind that important. If the KARTA (Doer) changes, theactions/thoughts automatically change - it is a law. I need notexplain it in detail to you. You know that. If we look at our directexperiences, it will get established. It is our direct experiencethat if Intellect rejects anything, the mind leaves that thought.Direct experience. So mind is not independent - it gets proven. Itacts under control of intellect. It cannot be DOER. Only doersuffers - it is a law !As per VEDANTA, the KARTA has to be INDEPENDENT ALWAYS. Is mindindependent? Does not mind work under commands of Intellect? Theyare inert and tools. They change automatically - I REPEATAUTOMATICALLY - when KARTA changes. Now, Pratapji, tell me where isthe need of running after the mind, training it, refining it, etc.The Karan Nirapeksha Saadhans, like Acceptance, Surrender, Devotion,Prem, Karma Yoga, Bhakti Yoga, Jnana Yoga - they attack and addressthe KARTA, the Jeevatma straight away. Once Jeeva understands, andchanges his mine ness (Which so far was with the world) ,everything changes automatically.Kindly in the interest of all sadhaks ponder over what I have statedabove and let them know your views on the subject. You cando so.Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B--------------------------------Priya SadhaksTulsidasji Maharaj told that bhajan can be done by mind only. Where? Which Doha?Dalmiaji Pls clarify .RamchandraWe are not here to agree or disagree to any specific point of view.We are here to assist each other in our path to God realisation.As far as I am concerned, I can only say that the starting point ofthis journey is the desire to realise God. The duration of thejourney will depend on the intensity of that desire.Basically as per my understanding, Gitaji has shown three paths (Ido not want to go into the merit of this statement). These areGyan Yog (Disicpline of Knowledge); Karma Yog (Discipline of Selfless Service);Bhakti Yog (Discipline of Devotion and Love)These paths are all leading to the same goal. None of these pathscan be said to be incomplete. The only difference is that thesepaths are meant for different people based on their individualnature. All are allowed to choose their own path based on what theythink suits them and see how they are progressing.I do not want people to spend their time on my observations made(not questions raised) in my earlier postings. The simple reason isthat their path seems to be different from the one chosen by me andI do not have any intention in deviating from that path as much asthey are not interested in deviating from their's. I must apologiseto Shri Ramchandra for not obliging him by answering his questions.Once again, my Salutations to all who showered their mercy on me. Ihope they will continue to do so in future as well.A.H.DalmiaRe: Reply to new question from Mahalaksmi DasiJai Shri Krishna,Mahalakshmi Dasi may please note that Krishna confirms in Gita 10:22that amongst sense organs I am mind ï¿½ "Indriyanaam Manaschasmi".Desire is in Jeeva only, soul is desireless. The pure soul becomesJeeva because of the assumed affinity with the body, world etc. Themoment Jeeva leaves this assumed affinity with the body, world etc.it becomes pure soul, which is part of the Paramaatma.Mahalakshmi Dasi has beautifully touched upon the difference betweenpurified desire and material desire. The desires for perishableworldly things (arising due to the assumed affinity with the bodyand world) are known as material desires. They are binding and yieldfruits. However, the purified desires are like roasted seeds ï¿½ whichdo not have any binding power and do not yield any fruits.Narayan NarayanRajendra J Bohra--------------------------Shree Hari-Regarding Vaysji answers Q 1-----Q 10 in general not specific. Aconstant them is the mind is a medium/ mirror/ machine etc.Reasonable arguments have been put forward. (I am thinking aloud hereas it were). Now several things come to mind, first one is that mindappears to be a universal, no mind can be different it simply reflectsthe intellect, ( a computer can serve thousands of users, or manypeople can look at the same mirror, but see different images depending wherethey stand).Now if the mind is a tool of the intellect, as stated. Then, as isknown, certain spiritual souls develop as Vaysji noted, occultpowers. And these powers perceived by that person, one presumes in the mind, butit does not seem to be a function of the intellect. In fact one can see withoutintellectual input,(seeing is not looking).Open eyed mediators can see, but take no involvement. (I think thelatest Sadhaka post is touching on my last thoughts).I hope you understand these are thoughts not arguments, conundrums inmy mind, (do I own that mind hmmm?)I would deeply appreciate any wise council on my conundrums.With Respect and Divine Love,Mike.(Mike Keenor)===========================================================PREVIOUS POSTINGHari OmHere is verse by verse answers to Dalmiaji's queries. He raisedspecific questions against each verse, hence answers are with eachverse only. Later on conclusions will be given.Q 1 - 2:38 . WHERE DO WE FEEL 'SUKH AND DUKH' ?.Ans :- Already explained. Refer Gita 13:20. Self (Jeeva)experiences pleasures and pains. Mind is just a mirror / tool forreflection or medium to self here. Equanimity enters the mind. Godis Equanimous. Self is by very nature Equanimous.Q 2 -3:7 /.3 :37 . WHERE DOES 'KAMANA' RESIDE ?. Ans:- Kaamna (Desire) resides in Karta ï¿½ doer- not in mind. ( In Ego-WhereKarta with affinity of Prakrati resides in Jeeva Form- likings anddislikings reside in Ego) . Karta suffers the results in the form ofpleasures and pains. Kaamna ( desire) can not reside in machinecalled mind. Refer Gita 13:20. Only doer suffers? Is not it?Q 3 - 4: 42 WHERE DOES 'AGAYN' RESIDE.? Ans. Ignorance ( Agyaan)resides in causal body- Ego- where Jeeva is sitting forming anaffinity with Nature. Mind is simply reflecting as a medium. Jeevais knowledgeable or ignorant. Mind can neither be knowledgeable orignorant. It is a machine like a computer or air craft. Mind's jobis to think in accordance with instructions of Intellect. Does notcomputer process commands? Is computer ignorant or knowledgeable?Q 4- 6: 36. EVEN GOD DECLARES THAT THE PERSON WHO DOES NOT HAVECONTROL OVER HIS MIND, WILL NOT BE ABLE TO ACHIEVE ME. ? Ans: Thisverse is in relation to Karan Saapeksha Saadhan viz Dhyaan Yogaonly. We are discussing at present Karan Nirapeksha sadhan. Ifrequired I will observe on it separately. Not now.Q 5 ï¿½ 8 : 5. AT THE TIME OF DEATH HE WHO REMEMBERS ME ?.WHERE DO WEREMEMBER FROM ?. IT IS THE MIND !. Ans: Remembrance at the time ofdeath is possible only when you take Karan Nirapeksha sadhan ofacceptance. Refer also advice of Krishna to Arjuna in this regard in8:7- continuous remembering . Karta (self) will cause entry ofremembrance into mind. Mind is only a medium here ! More discussionswill be there on this when 9:34, and 12:2/8 are discussed. Why inevery mind at the time of death , the remembrance of God does notcome ? Mind is same everywhere. Here Jeeva is of essence. Not theinnocent machine called Mind. According to you who remembers God atthe last moment ? Jeeva or Mind? If mind remembers then who will getliberated?Q 6- 8:14 "ANANYA CHETA SATATAM". GOD ORDERS TO REMEMBER HIM WITHNO DISTRACTIONS. WHERE DO WE REMEMBER FROM ?. IT IS THE MIND !. Ans -Same as above. Mind is only a medium here. A mirror. I will discussthis separately in detail with 9:34 etcQ 7- 13 :21 "PURUSHAH PRAKRITISTHO HI". WE GET ATTACHED TO THE WORLDBY BEING EXTROVERT. THIS NEEDS TO BE CURBED BY MAKING MINDINTROVERT. Ans Both Extrovert and Introvert are positioning of Mind.By being introvert, that PURUSHA which is referred here, doesnotcease to be out of Prakriti. Do you agree that Purusha and Prakritiare separate ? Yes- you must. Then how change of position of mindchanges the position of Purusha ? Purusha ( Jeevatma) has formedaffinity with matter. Jeevatma has to withdraw. Upon withdrawal byPurusha only change in mind by way of Equanimity, by becomingSattva/ Being etc will arise. Many times you in practical lifebecome introvert. Does at that time Purusha ceases to be connectedwith matter?Q 8- 13 :28 "SAMAM PASHYANHI SARVATRA". WE NEED TO SEE GOD IN ALLBEINGS. THIS IS NOT BY OUR EYES BUT BY OUR MIND. Ans- Yeah. But mindthere only reflects the equanimity which has arisen due to change inJeeva. Mind is only a mirror here.Q 9- 14 :25 " MAM CHA YO AVYABHICHRENA". ONE WHO DOES MY UNDILUTEDBHAKTI... HERE AGAIN MIND COMES. Ans- Mind as a mirror shall comeinto picture even when Paramatma Realisation enters the Jeeva oreven when you get liberation with body. Refer my earlier postingBhakti is done by SELF not by mind. NOTE THIS THING CATEGORICALLYTHAT BHAKTI AND SERVICE CAN NEVER BE DONE BY MIND. It is always doneby Self. BHAKTA AND SADHAK ARE ALWAYS UNMANIFEST- BHAAV SHARIRAS. Iwill take up this subject in more detail. All of your new postingissues will get clarified.Whether it is Ramcharitmanas issue, orKapil Bhagwaan reference or Chaitnya Mahaprabhu sayings, or MiraBaai, or Bhooribaiji.THEY ALL ARE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT. Everythingwhich you have written is right, except your conclusions that Bhajanhappens from mind. Wrong. Show me a single reference by them wherethey have said Bhajan is done by mind. Then what SELF does, thenLiberation also should be of body/mind only ï¿½ where does thenJivatma comes int picture? Wrong. Also the last para of yourposting. It is so unnecessary Anyway, I am duty bound to reply.Q 10- 15:5 "NIRMAAN MOHA JIT SANGA DOSHA". WHERE DOES "MAAN ANDMOHA" RESIDE. IT IS THE MIND. Moha ( attachment) resides in Ego-where Jeeva resides ( Para Prakrati and Apara prakrati jointlyreside). Respect is a desire of Jeeva. It again lies in Jeeva only.Q 11- 16 :21 "TRIVDHAM NARAKSEDAM". "KAMA, KRODHA ETC MUST BEOVERCOME. AGAIN THIS IS THE FUNCTION OF MIND. Ans Kaam ( desire)resides in Jeeva. Refer earlier discussion on the subject. Anger isoutcome of non fulfilment of desire. It gives pains to Jeeva. Mindis only a medium/mirror of transferring pain to Jeeva who desired.Balance in next edition.You may ask counter questions with reference to above discussions,however.Jai Shree Krishna.Vyas N BDear SadhaksNamaste. My queries are to A H Dalmia.I hope you are aware that Jeeva is part of Paramatma and has assumedaffinity with the nature as per Holy Gitaji. Self is unchangeableand ONLY part of Paramatma. Prakriti is ever changeable and bothSelf and God are beyond Nature.Mind is part of Prakriti as per Holy Gitaji.Self is part ofParamatma as per Holy Gitaji. I need not give Gita verse nos , oncein your previous posting you have referred so many verses of HolyGitaji.You have quoted from writings of Goswami Tulsidasji Maharaj ,Revered Shri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, stating what these respectableSaints told. But you have concluded that "Bhajan is done by Mind".Please prove that the aforesaid Great Saints said so and if theysaid so , please prove by giving reference of their writings, Dohano and verse no of their books.If they have not said so and if it is only your personal feeling/conclusion then please tell the sadhaks that it is so, and givereasons as to how "doership" vests in mind , which as per HolyGitaji is a "karan" (tool) and is a "jad" ( inert). You must nowprove it.You also referred to Holy and Most respectable Devotees ofParamatma - Goswami Tulsidasji Maharaj and Mira Baai and concludedwith their reference that:-A. Acceptance is made by mind andB Mamata ( mineness) is residing in mindand not in Jeevatma (Chhijjad granthi) which some other sadhaks havestated..Please prove by giving specific references of their works/bhajans asto where they so confirmed. If they have not confirmed anywhere andyour mind has so presumed then tell us that it is so and let usknow as to what kind of mind a child has (or you had when you wereinfant) when, the child accepts some one as his mother and as hisfather.Please also state as to how the mind can make any "mamata" with Godor with Self, when it is part of ever changing Nature and God isbeyond Nature as per Gitaji.Please elaborate as to what you want to communicate when youreferred Respected Bhagwan Shri Kapildevji stating that " Liberationand Bondage" are in mind. Please state Liberation or Bondage ofwhom? Of the mind? Or of some one else? Pls state reasons as to whythen the mind so adored by you should not be thrown into a dust bin,without making any refinements in it - lock , stock and barrel - bythe Jeevatma who governs the ego/intellect/mind/body etc !Please also give reasons as to why mind, intellect, ego, body etcshould not be ignored by Jivaatma (Self) as suggested by somesaadhaks and as to why it is necessary to refine them, as stated inPatanjali Yoga Darshana (definition of Yoga) but not in HolyGitaji. Please state what is more important according to you andwhy? Please state how both Scriptures according to you can be livedwith without any contradictions.You have referred Param Shraddheya Swamiji Shri RamsukhdasjiMaharaj . He stated many times in my personal presence also - HeyNaath Main Apko Bhooloon Nahin. (O Lord , Let me not forget you ). Iagree. But please state from where and from which reference( out ofhis discourses and books) you have drawn the conclusion that thisprayer / this PUKAAR/ this request is from the" mind" and not fromJeevatma as some other Sadhaks have stated.I am awaiting your responses eagerly.With sincere respects and regards to you and all fellow sadhaksRamchandra-Shree Hari-I have been following this debate with great interest, the nature ofthe mind and Self and so on.Now if one meditates and takes the time to still the mind to a pointwhere what lies beneath all the clatter can be sensed. (This is nottheory it can be achieved I am sure by any who is so predisposed tothat way of things). What can happen, (now I attempt to unifyexperience to expression), a sense of separation, also unspeakablelove, also an understanding that all is really perfect, the imperfectis a product of illusion.The Impostor Mind, cannot accept this insight and rationality setsin, "that's not me, thats not me...",But the cat is out of the bag, one has had a glimpse of the truth, itbecomes part of ones awareness.At times Ego will try and dominate, but always that knowing is withone.I think I see a drift in this understanding appearing in this debate,it is pretty involved and not easy to follow. (Thats my weakness).A final point, the classic symbol of two birds, (the one I am mostfamiliar with), drinking at the fountain , one drinks the other lookson , certainly makes sense to me at this point of this life.With Respect and Divine Love,Mike(Mike Keenor)-Jai Shri Krishna,A sadhak must first decide/resolve that he can get liberated !WHY HE CAN GET LIBERATED ?Because he is in fact liberated only ! !He should believe that he can realise Paramatma !WHY HE CAN REALISE PARAMATMA?Because in fact Paramatma is already received by him, ever connectedwith him. He is part of Paramatma only.Sadhak should believe that he can not do anything through body forSELF. Only SELF can help SELF. SELF can not " act" at all !THEN WHAT CAN SELF DO ?SELF can not " DO " but it can "BECOME" - Nishkaam(desireless),Nirmam ( mamata less / minenessless), Nirmal (faultless/vicefree/stainless), Nirahankaar (egoless) .WHY YOU CAN BECOME DESIRELESS/EGOLESS/MINENESSLESS/ FAULTLESS ?Because by form he is always desireless, egoless, mamataless, andfaultless ! He is part of Paramatma. He has developed desires /ego / mineness / faults because of affinity with world only.We can by SELF do Bhajan (devotion) and give Service to the world atlarge (Bhakti Yoga and Karma Yoga respectively)HOW CAN WE DO SERVICE WITHOUT USING BODY ?By becoming " nirmal" / faultfree/ vicefree. That is real service tothe world. That body can not do , only Self can become so ! !HOW CAN YOU DO BHAJAN WITHOUT USING BODY ?By Loving Paramatma. That does not require body. Love ( Prem ) onlySelf can do, because self is part of God. Love arises out ofmineness When self accepts mineness with God, Love is automatic..You can not realise God by mind, intellect, ego and body. Had thatbeen possible then any machine also could have caught Paramatma !Sadhak gets Paramatma by renouncing the shelter of body, mind,intellect etc. We don't need body to realise Paramatma. Only SELF isneeded, WILLING SELF ! !.Narayana NarayanaRajendra Bohra-NEW QUESTION:In regard to posting below, my humble request that Vyasaji give thechapter and number for the following quote (as I am studying thismaterial as attentively as my constitution allows...)"That's why Krsna stated even in Gita that among sense organs I amthe mind".My second question...in regard to posting by Rajendra Bohra, he hasmentioned that in fact, desire is not in the mind, it is in thejeeva. This has always been my understanding, that desire issympton of the soul. So, is this forum suggesting that the soulshould have no desire? If so, why are we desiring to understandthis topic? Please explain purified desire in regard to materialdesire.Sincerely, Mahalaksmi Dasi-Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!This is in reference to Dalmiaji's observations on Mind andsubsequent responses.It appears to me that we may be saying the same thing with differentmeanings of such words as mind, Jeevatma(Jeeva), Self, etc., due tointerpretations of scriptures we may have read or heard ourselves orfrom Saints.Vedanta's teaching, as I understand it, is only for training "mind"or preparing it to receive Truth, whereas Self is ever present andshining, needing nothing. Here mind has to be itself ignorance(or inignorance) for Vedanta to say it. One can only address theignorance. Thus, in this context, Jeevatma and mind can be said asone and the same.Look at our experience: we don't really experience "mind", nor dowe experience "body" in themselves, rather, we only experiencethoughts and sensations in our being conscious-aware of them. Thatis the only real experience! However, In order to communicate, weconceptualize "thoughts" as "mind" and "sensations" as "body".Please see this closely. If one sees this experientially, it is thebiggest proof for oneself of mind's reality.Wrong identity-ignorance as Jeeva can exist only as thoughts (ormind), which is nothing but a sense of separation called "me", andsubsequent ignorance of doership (karta), enjoyership (bhokta) etcetc. So there are not two, mind and thoughts or body and sensations!In fact all are just one: Ignorance of Self manifesting as thoughtsor mind or Jeeva or "limitations-me"! Use of words create their ownindepenent realities which have no experiential reality,nevertheless, have good communication tools. In this sense, mind canbe called tool as Vyasji says.Now ever present Self(Atman) is where thoughts, sense of "me" appearas It is the ultimate ground of all that appear! Brahman in movementis Maya principle; thoughts are ripples on the fundamental unity ofall Beings in Brahman(Upanishadas)! Thus there is One reality, Selfappearing in ignorance as Jeevahood-ego, experienced as mind-stuff(antahkarana-tool). In the entire cosmo, there are no separaterealities. When this insight is contemplated upon hearing from thelips of one's Guru(Upanishadas), Self is realized as the only ONETruth, God and Devotion is natural pouring of heart!While on this pursuit of Knowledge(Gyan), one should acknowledge theunity of such terms from the beginning(it is the Shrawana, Manana,Nididhyasana practice) and not wait to realize it as an end ofSadhana because it propagates the wrong notions! Of course theseterms are, not only good communication tools, but the only tools todescribe the undescribable.So we may be right in saying what we say in the context.Difficulties arise only in communications which is why suchplatforms as this are useful.Thank you all Sadhakas.....Namaskaras....Pratap(Pratap Bhatt)====================================================================Jai Shree Krishna,Desires do not reside in mind. They come in mind -"manogataan" -Gita2:55. Mind is a tool. There can not be any desire in a tool. Isthere any desire in the car to run? Is there any desire in pen towrite? If we presume that desires are existing in mind, then thesorrow arising due to non fulfillment of desire also should be tomind. But sorrow is to the Self (embodied soul - Jeeva). (Gita 13:20)In fact desires are in "Karta", the Jeeva (embodied soul, not thepure Self, the embodied self) who experiences the pains thereof.Mind is not the "doer", hence not the experiencer. Mind is notindependent, it works under intellect. It is a law that Karta (doer)is always independent. Intellect is also not "doer", it also is atool only. Pure Self (Chetan) is also not "doer". Had pure Self beendoer, it would never have been possible to remove "doership". (Gita13:31- na karoti na lipyate - pure self neither does nor getsentangled).The activities happen in nature as a natural phenomena. One whoassumes doership only reaps pleasures / pains. Just as car runs butwe say " I am going/ travelling" - because we have attachedourselves with car. Do you fly or the aircraft flies?In fact in neither the inert ( mind, intellect, body) thereis "doership" (kartitva) and "enjoyer/suffership" ( bhoktritva) northey are in pure Self, Chetan, Atma . They exist in JeevatmaJeevatma - pure self when it exercises its power ofacceptance/affinity with nature becomes Jeevatma. He assumespositioning in Nature, he "assumes" himself to be doer, inspite ofhis not being the "doer"- hence he enjoys/suffers , not an innocentmachine called mind. He is ignorant not mind.Not the pure self. Butthe assumed self. Jeeva liberates not the mind. Mind is asat(unreal). Not the pure self-it is ever liberated.Entire center of attraction therefore is Jeevatma - not inert toolslike mind , not Pure Chetan Atma - but Jeevatma.Hence we have address this Jeevatma only not a machine called mind !In Jeeva, there are two parts. One - pure Self, Atma, exclusive partof God. Two - Prakriti / Nature with which he assumes affinity. Theycombinedly remain and hence the term "Jeeva". All scripturesconcentrate on this creature called Jeeva not innocent machinecalled mind.Narayan NarayanRajendra J Bohra-Hari OmThank you Dalmiaji for really good observations on mind.You have indeed raised very relevant questions which needclarification in a manner as easy as Maharajji told and it may take2/3 postings. Please do not hesitate to raise any questions orcounter questions - it is the very purpose of this esteemed forum.Mind in fact is a unique creation of nature. Nothing can match it.That's why even Krishna stated in Gita that among sense organs I ammind.You have drawn attention to 2:38, 3:7, 3:37, 4:42, 6:36, 8:5, 8:14,9:34, 18:65, 12:2, 12:8, 13:28,14:25, 15:5 and 16:21.- to concludethat Mind is an important Sadhana tool and the teachings of Swamijibecome really easy only when we tackle / control this typicalmachine called Mind.First of all let me clarify that in the body the mind is the mainorgan, everything has to pass through mind, be it conscience orsmriti, or experience or even Paramatma Realisation or reflection oracceptance or devotion or Prem (Love) or Equanimity or even SELF inits pure form etc etc. In many others and rather in each of theabove at least the mind is merely a reflector / a mirror and thatdoes not mean mind has in fact acted. These things enter the mindinvoluntarily and shine "through" the mind.Even Ego, Intellect, Chitta though different from mind can reflectonly "through" mind. Mind is an inert tool, a machine.There are 2 things. One - what mind does, thinking. Two - whatarises automatically in mind. In latter mind is mere reflector.There is no doership there. It has not done anything there exceptreflecting as a mirror. Where else Samata (equanimity) can shineexcept in mind? Where can experience of pain and pleasure getreflected except in mind? It is Jeeva (embodied soul) in factwho "experiences" pleasure and pain, not mind. Jeeva is ignorant notmind. Mind is inert - it cannot experience. Mind is atool /organ /machine. Responsible and real experiencer is Karta(doer) - Jeevatma - who presumes "I am doer" The Doer experiencesthe pains or pleasures. (Gita 13:20) not the mind. For everythingwhich reflects in Mind, the action really is not of mind. What isreal role/action of mind in that thing which it merely reflects as amirror-except reflecting as mirror?.. Where is action of water whenSun reflects there? It is inert, a tool , a machine !Does the mind cease to operate in God realised souls ? No, themirror role continues, SELF there shines in its pure form.. Manyverses which you have referred merely indicate the mirror role ofmind and hence become irrelevant from mind control point of view.In fact the enlightened mind is called "Being" or "Sattva". The mindis born again , "Being" is not born again. The knowers of theTruth , who are free from the mind,are constantly established in aneven position.They move about sportively with the ease of theirstation or state that is Pure Being. ( Yoga Vaashishtha).Did Swamiji not have mind after realisation ? Yes he had, but notmind , Sattva/Being - same mind !!But there are many verses referred by you which indeed must beaddressed fully like 12:8, 12:2, 9:34 etc.I shall deal verse by verse in next posting.Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B-I would like to supplement on the subject on what I wrote yesterdayas follows:Goswami Tulasidas ji Maharaj firmly says"Baru Mathe Ghrit Hoi, Sikta te Baru Tel, Binu Hari Bhajan na BhavTariye, Yah Siddhant Apail"Last three words are very significant and worthy of deeperthought. "This Cardinal Principle is unchangeable". Further it mustbe noted that 'Bhajan' has to happen from Mind.Shri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu equally firmly says"Harernamaive Harernamaive Harernamaive Kevalam, Kalau NastyevaNastyeva Nastyeva Gati Anyatha".Normally in any Kavya any repetition is considered a major defect.But in this place Mahaprabhu has used the same word not two butthree times to impress how important this is. It need not berepeated that 'Harernam' is to be done by Mind.When Goswamiji says "Tulasi Mamta Ram Se" (as said by Rajendrabelow), we need to appreciate where does that Mamata reside. It isin the Mind.Meera Bai used to chant "Mere To Girdhar Gopal, Doosro Na Koi".Where does one accept any relationship. It is the Mind.Shri Kapil Bhagwan says"Chetah Khalvasya Bandhaya Muktaye Chatmano Matam, Guneshu SaktamBandhaya Ratam Va Punsi Muktaye".The main reason for 'Bandhan and Moksha' is the mind. If it isattached to the world, it results in rebirth and if it starts lovingGod it results in Moksha. Hence the importance of Mind"Yoga" means to get attached to God. The very definition of Yogais "Chitta Vritti Nirodhah". Again the attack is on Mind.In Gyan Yoga, we do not start with "Aham Brahmosmi". This is not thefirst but the last step. Here we start from"Pragyanam Brahma". After meditating on this principle, we move onto "Ayam Atma Brahma". Having reached that stage, we areadvised "Tat Twam Asi". Again the sadhak goes back to his meditationand realises this truth. Then and then only he returns to say "AhamBrahmosmi". So we see that we do not start by saying I am the God.When we meditate on "Pragyanam Brahma", we are infact training theMind.Swamiji Maharaj used to repeat virtually in all his pravachans "HeyNath Main Apko Na Bhulun". Where does remembering and forgettingtake place. It is the Mind.Even in our scriptures we find the words "Gyanottar Bhakti". Wenever find the words "Bhaktottar Gyan". This means that even when weRealise through the Gyan Yog, there is still something left and thatis Bhakti. Bhakti in real terms means 'Prem' (Love for God). Lovecan happen only in the heart and the Adhyatmik Heart is Mind.I remember, once I had the chance to meet a great saintcalled 'Bhoori Bai'. She used to reside in Natha Dwara. I requestedher to guide me in the path of Realisation. I asked her "what shoudI do to achieve that goal". To my surprise she said "kucch nahinkarna". I had full faith in her words. Hence there was no way, Icould take it lightly. I meditated on this answer in the night andthe next morning I again went to her lotus feet and requested her toelaborate as to what she meant. She said "in any case what do youdo". This meant clearly that do what you do but without 'KartritvaAbhiman'. This then leads us to the fact that we are not the body.This needs to take roots in our Mind. And for that we need to trainour Mind.In the end I would only like to re-iterate that it is easy to justread a scripture or hear a saint and give discourses. But it willbecome much more meaningful, if we spend time in translating thesame in our life and then see if we are speaking from the level of abeginner (Sadhak). Without that, there is all the possibility thatwe miss out on what the Sadhak really needs.A.H.Dalmia-My understanding is that there cannot be wrong in any wordswhosoever uttered in whatsoever manner. The very Bramhan makes everysyllable, every sound and every atom to their perfection as such. Inthat case, how can anything built by these basic building blocks canbe NOT perfect?!Also, however detailed one can express oneself, all the expressionsremain a tip of the iceberg, the experience beneath the expressionsremaining infinitely concealed. Thus, every expression in this worldhas its own legitimacy in terms of the experience that backs it up.Following is my opinion on finding wrong in somebody's utterances:1. Finding something wrong or objectionable in some body else'sutterances is utterly erroneous in itself since nobody can accesssomebody else's iceberg of experience and hence get disqualifiedautomatically.2. It is useless to find wrong and objectionable aspects insomebody's writings as it does not bring any new understanding ï¿½ onewho finds wrong is sticking to what he already "knows" ï¿½ retainingone's ignorance intact.3. It is dangerous to make an attempt to find errors in othersbecause the very attempt is to justify one's own errors and even toconceal the same.Therefore, if at all I can, I can put forward my views and opinionsfor others benefit (if any) in more detail on the subject inresponse to Vyasji's scholarly writings.My understanding is that The Upanishad prevails everywhere ineverything at all the times transcending all the barriers of spaceand time. If one does not see that, it is the students fault. Thenit is the student's responsibility to correct himeself. For that heneeds to equip himself within with Shraddhaa (the trishul of tapa,dama and karma) and receiving genuine help from the environment(vedas) such as the great virtual ashram we have with so many greatsouls pouring their genuine thoughts and experiences for everyone'sbenefits. I am so blessed to be one in this Homa (and Home!).I will make my best attempt to understand from Vyasji's writings formy benefit and express my views as I can.Respects.Naga Narayana.Namasthe everyone. Many devotees have responded this question andthis is my humble opinon for the question ""How does one who is notable to immediately feel the Lord's presence rise to that level?What is the path of attaining what some individuals have withouteffort, and how is it that they have this?"The simplest path i feel is: just see each and every beings as yourown and in each and every action that we do, do not have anyexpectation at all for the output (Gita 3rd chapter, karma yoga) andsurrender that output (whatever it maybe) to that Supreme.Regards,Bharathi====================================================================PREVIOUS POSTINGJai Shree KrishnaSwamiji's last speech - translated by Vyasji for benefits of Sadhaks-in fact is the most important write up which humanity for aeons willcherish.Minimum words-infinite result!He in fact in this speech took the essence of every. major Yogadescribed in Gita including Dhyaan Yoga(silence/desirelessness justbefore realisation- Gita 6:24/25 ), Karma Yoga(Duty/equanimity),Bhakti Yoga ( Surrender) and Jnana Yoga (Nothing is mine,I don'tneed anything, I don't do anything)- to prove that in the end allyogas lead to same result !Step one can only be "acceptance" - TULSI MAMTA RAAM SE ! ( Minenesswith Paramatma only) . Mirabai Said- Mere to Girdhar Gopal, DoosaroNa Koi. (Only Paramatma is Mine, nobody else is mine).Swamiji in fact never contradicted any saying of any Scripture. Heproved every Scripture right!Here the process emanating out of Swamiji's last speech is aguaranteed process. It is guaranteed by God because it meets withalmost every concluding verse of Gitaji spoken by Lord Krishna withreference to God realisation- be it Verse2:38, 2:45, 2:48, 2:71 or18:66, 6:20, 6:24, 6:25, 6:3, 9:31, 12:12,18:66 and many manyothers .!It is guaranteed further by a remark of Lord Krishna to Arjuna inGitaji. He stated in in 9;31 - Kaunteya pratijanihi na me bhaktahpranshyati - O Arjuna, you take the vow that my devotee shall neverfall.( Or proved wrong)Why did Lord ask Arjuna to swear? Why He Himself did not swear/ takethe vow? Answer is that God can at any point of time, when it comesto His devotees, change/ back out from his "pratigyaa"(vow/promise/swearing)- He doesn't mind then being called as "Ranchhod" ( runner from war front) or " Chor" ( thief) or Vaaman (dwarf ), also. After all - Bhakta mere Mukut Mani ( My devotees arejewel of my crown). He in fact vowed before He became driver ofArjuna's Ratha (chariot) in Mahabharat War that " I shall not liftweapon in Mahabharata War" . But when his devotee , Bhisma Pitamah,also vowed that- I shall make Krishna lift weapon in the MahabharatWar- Krishna backed out from His vow, lifted the weapon and therebyensured that the vow of His devotee, Bhisma, prevailed - andnot His !!Here in this speech not one but at least three confirmed devotees ofLord Krishna are involved - Mira Baai, Swamiji and GoswamiTulsidasji Maharaj. (In fact many more) On the top of it Krishna'sdivine voice itself is standing authenticated in this speech ofSwamiji- in more than one ways..We need only to believe, to accept!Narayan NarayanRajendra J Bohra-------------------------------Shree Hari-I think Rajendraji understood the my point I made, (in my clumsy way)regarding GOD pointing a Sadhak to the easiest way to Realization, asVyasji pointed out there a many approaches.The mention of Japa, and also the deep silent approach, along withB.G. Chapter 6 as an offering to Paul.It appears intellect can see Paramatma in all, even by deepthought it can be reasoned, but it seems to actually Know, (torealize) is entirely a different thing.Equanimity and Apathea describe the same state, (an expression usedby western mystics).I have been conservative, in my comments, (not so much my questions),I really desire not to offend. Vyasji has been attempting to draw mefrom my shell, to which I have retreated. Having always been a deepthinker on things spiritual, and drawn to meditation over manyyears. (I had no particular fixed belief). I thank you for extendingyourself and making it possible to share my thoguhts. With Respectand Divine Love.Mike(Mike Keenor)-Pranams. Thanks for circulating Swamiji's last speech, which is verprofound and highl motivating.G.Vaidanathan-Stilling of Mind (Manah) with help of Buddhi (intellect) in removalof impurity of thoughts is Yoga. But this practice of mind controlis not easy and yet easily achievable. Manah (mind) is like gaswhich after seeing something new, it gets desire of it. If it doesnot see / know, desires do not come. Thus, let mind be free to seeand know but not stick to any of these, and so that it can returneasily through a hole to inner self.K G Misra-I greatly appreciate the explanations given by Shri Vyasji by takingso much pain. I also agree with what he says.I wish to draw attention of sadhaks to the following where myunderstanding and experience is that mind is of great importance inonce sadhana:Chapter 2 Verse 38 "Sukh dukhe same kritva". Where do we feel 'Sukhand Dukh'.Chapter 3 Verse 7 "Yastvindriyani manasa". Chapter 3 Verse 37 "Kamaaisha krodh aisha". Where does 'Kamana' reside.Chapter 4 Verse 42 "Tasmat agyan sambhutam" Where does 'Agayn'reside.Chapter 6 Verse 36 "Asayyatatmana yogo dushprap'. Even God declaresthat the person who does not have control over his mind, will not beable to achieve me.Chapter 8 Verse 5 "Anta kale cha mameva smaran". At the time ofdeath he who remembers me...Where do we remember from. It is themind.Chapter 8 Verse 14 "Ananya cheta satatam". God orders to rememberhim with no distractions. Where do we remember from. It is the mind.Chapter 9 Verse 34 "Manmana bhava". God orders that we should givehim our mind. Please note that this is the only Verse that isrepeated in the whole of Gitaji (Repeated in Chapter 18 Verse 65).This shows how much importance God has given to this.Chapter 12 Verse 2 "Mayyaveshya mano ye mam". God orders toconcentrate the mind (Ekagra) in Him.Chapter 12 Verse 8 "Mayyeva mana adhatsva". God orders to keep mindattached to Him.Chapter 13 Verse 21 "Purushah prakritistho hi". We get attached tothe world by being extrovert. This needs to be curbed by making mindintrovert.Chapter 13 Verse 28 "Samam pashyanhi sarvatra". We need to see Godin all beings. This is not by our eyes but by our mind.Chapter 14 Verse 25 "..... Mam cha yo avyabhichrena". One who doesmy undiluted Bhakti... Here again mind comes.Chapter 15 Verse 5 "Nirmaan moha jit sanga dosha". Where does "Maanand Moha" reside. It is the mind.Chapter 16 Verse 21 "trivdham naraksedam". "Kama, krodha etc must beovercome. Again this is the function of mind.Finally in Gitaji (Chapter 7 Verse 19) God has expressed that aftermany rebirths, when finally the sadhak realises me, such sadhaks arerare.I would also like to draw attention of Sadhaks to Shrimad Bhagwat.In Skada 3 Chapter 25 Verses 15 to 20, Kapil Bhagwan tells hismother how to achieve God. Here again he asserts 'Chetah khalasyabandhaya" mind is the main reason for 'Bandhan and Moksha'.Begging for Shri Vyasji's forgiveness, I have tried to pick upverses at random from almost all Chapters of Gitaji to impress thatMIND in perhaps the most important aspect in SADHANA.Now let me clarify why I agree with Shri Vyasji. Once we have beenable to establish firmly in our "Self" that I am neither the Bodynor the Mind nor the Intellect, then everything that Shri Vyasji hassaid falls in place. But to reach that stage, we have to cross theother barriers created by the mind.Also, when God himself declares "Sa Mahatma sudurlabhah", how can wesay that he can be achieved instantly. I do accept that Maharajjiused to frequently say "Bhagwan mil jayen abhi abhi". However, Idid not get an answer.Once again begging for forgiveness from all whom I may have offendedby differing with them.A.H.Dalmia-Hari OmWho can say exactly as to how the last stage of God Realisation iscrossed ? Only a God Realised Mahatma ! Who else ? On 30th June,2005, barely 3 days before his death, Swamiji delivered his lastspeech at Swaragashram, Rishikesh ï¿½. and what a speech it was !Coming from a "God Realised" Mahatma, the speech is direct, crisp,brief and totally focussed. His body had become too weak and hencehe used minimum words. But each & every word was an ocean.Presently to Dear Sadhaks, the "Last Speech of the Genius ï¿½ SwamijiShri Ramsukhdasji Maharaj "."There is one thing which is very good, very simple and very easy.And that is ï¿½ Do not keep any desires. Neither of God, nor of Soul,nor of World, nor of Liberation, nor of Kalyaan ï¿½ don't keep anydesires and become silent. Become peaceful. Reason being that Godis existing everywhere in a peaceful, silent mode. He is presenteverywhere automatically and naturally. If no desires remain inyou, no expectations remain in you ï¿½ you get God immediately, youget fulfillment, you get completeness ï¿½ immediately.It is the experience of each one of us, that some desires getfulfilled and some desires do not get fulfilled. It is not a law orrule that all of our desires will be fulfilled. To fulfill desiresis not in our control. But the relinquishment (tyaag) of thedesires is completely under our control. When there is no wish ordesires existing, you shall be automatically and naturallypositioned in God. You will get "God Realisation" instantly.Nothing to desire, nothing to do, nowhere to go, nowhere to come,no practice. That is all. In this itself all things are over.The "Bondage" to the world arose only because we desired. Themoment we leave desires, we get positioned into God ï¿½ automatically & naturally.Remain impartial in every work. Neither like nor dislike doing anywork."TULSI MAMTA RAM SO; SAMATA SAB SANSAR ! RAAG NA ROSH NA DOSHDUKH; DAAS BHAYE BHAV PAAR !! (Dohavali ï¿½ 94)"(Says Goswami Tulsidas ï¿½ By "mineness" only with God and byonly "Equanimity" with the world; with no attachment (liking),aversion (disliking), fault finding and sorrow, the surrendered(Daas) crosses the ocean of worldly existence).There is "activity" and "matter". Both "matter" and "activity" arecombinedly called "Nature" (Prakrati). By disconnecting bothwith "matter" and "activity", get yourself dependent upon one God.Surrender yourself to the God ï¿½. And that is all is needed. Thenyou are naturally & automatically positioned into God.A woman lost her child in the dream. She became very anxious,worried and restless. When she got up from the sleep, she found herchild peacefully sleeping beside her, meaning thereby that whereveryou are, the God is completely present there itself. Wherever youare, become silent there itself.Q (By a Listener) : Sir, you told yesterday that let there be nodesire. Now which one is more beneficial ï¿½ to be desireless or tobecome silent ?Swamiji ï¿½ Accept that "I am of the God, God is mine, I am not of anybody else and no one else is mine". To become "desireless" and tobecome "silent" ï¿½ both things are one and the same only. You don'thave to desire for anything ï¿½ neither of worldly "bhogs", nor ofLiberation, nor of Divine Love (Prem), nor of devotion (Bhakti) norof anything else.Q (By a Listener) : I have not to desire for anything. But if Ihave to work, then ?Swamiji : Do your work whole heartedly. Do your work 24 hours aday ï¿½ but do not keep any desires within you. Understand this thingproperly. Serve others, remove pains / sorrows of others but do notdesire anything in return. Do service to others and become silentin the end. If you are in employment, take your salary, but do notdesire for it.The essence is that wherever you are, the God is there itself. Ifyou do not have any desires then your positioning shall be in God.When everything is God only ï¿½ then we have to desire for what ? Wehave desire for the world, therefore our positioning is in theworld. When there is no desire, we remain positioned in the God."In the next Article I shall elaborate on this further.Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B---Jai Shree Krishna,Important thing to note between these two sadhans viz KaranNirapeksha Sadhan and Karan Sapeksha Sadhan is that ultimately theGod Realisation comes to you from only Nirapeksha Sadhan ,irrespective of your doing saadhna (striving) through SaapekshaSaadhans. Reason is that you can not realise Him by the aid ofnature, or matter- IT IS A LAW. . You can realise Him only byrenouncing the nature.For example, in Dhyaan Yoga ( Meditation) ï¿½ which is a KaranSapeksha Sadhan - due to long time practice ( abhyaas) and Vairagya( dispassion) and by again and again forcing the mind to turntowards God i.e. to get attuned with God, the mind becomestranquil/disinterested/quite. Because on one hand, there is nodesire of world left in mind, and on other hand being inert, itcannot reach/receive/grasp Paramatma. Mind then has no choice but toget "upraam" , disinterested and become "equanimous". The momentmind becomes so , saadhak gets disconnected from mind/matter/natureand realises the God by SELF (Gita 6:20) .But , for example in Karma Yoga- which is Karan Nirapeksha Sadhan -, a Sadhak right from beginning assumes relationship with theworld only for serving the world , for giving , not taking anythingfrom world -. He becomes desireless very fast ï¿½ by doing duty only.As soon as he becomes desireless , he gets Equanimity. The momentmind becomes Equanimous , saadhak gets disconnected from matterand realises God by SELFSimilarly in Bhakti Yoga ï¿½ a Sadhak right from beginning assumesrelationship with only God and nothing else- and thus he becomesdesireless even faster- by just seeing everything happening as God'sWill . He then is given Equanimity by God Himself ! God startstaking all of his responsibilities, the moment He accepts hisrelationship with God and renounces his relationship with world.That is how the simple also becomes easy !.Narayan NarayanRajendra J Bohra> ==============================================================Shree HariRam RamDear Sadhaks,At this time, there will be no new subjects / questions introduceduntil after 23rd August, to allow sadhaks time to review the entirestring of deliberations on this very important spiritualdiscipline. Sadhaks are only taking questions / doubts / issues /inquiry / clarification / disagreement etc. on the material coveredon this subject.In your posting, please include first the statement made by theSadhak "As is" in these deliberations and below it, please includeyour comments regarding your doubts, disagreement, additionalquestions you have etc. pertaining to what the sadhak has stated. Ifthere are disagreement, please state the source of scripture andverse reference that supports your theory / understanding etc.Please kindly stay away from generalized statements, opinions, andfeelings.This will be an invaluable use of every sadhak's time, in thisspiritual journey. Also recommended reading are the links below onthe same subject in past daily sadhak messages. Questions / issuesrelated to anything in these daily messages will also be taken atthis time.sadhaka/message/1349sadhaka/message/1375sadhaka/message/1416sadhaka/message/1434sadhaka/message/1670sadhaka/message/1721sadhaka/message/1934sadhaka/message/2030sadhaka/message/1236We look forward to your sincere study of the material.From Gita Talk ModeratorsRam RamQuestion: How does one who is not able to immediately feel theLord's presence rise to that level? What is the path of attainingwhat some individuals have without effort, and how is it that theyhave this? many thanks, Mahalaksmi Dasi---New PostingHari OmThere are four main differences between Karan Saapeksha (Disciplines aided byinner faculties - Mind/Body / Intellect etc) and Karan NirapekshaMethods ofParamatma Realisation.1. Assistance of matter, (body,senses,mind etc) has to be taken inSapekshaMethod, while no such assistance is necessary , in the NirapekshaMethod,instead the assumed relationship with matter, is to be sundered orbroken up.2 There is, creation of new state of mind in the Sapeksha Method,but inNirapeksha Method there is realisation after breach with all statesof mind.3 In Sapeksha Methods, there may be an acquisition of occult powers(siddhis),but in Nirapeksha Methods there is direct and intuitive experienceof Reality,on severance of relationship with matter.4 God Realisation in the Sapeksha Method is NEVER iMMEDIATE , but inNirapekshaMethod God Realisation is IMMEDIATE , as soon as a breach withmatter iscomplete, either by surrendering to Him, or on being established inthe Self.The Basis of Sapeksha Method is - If the mind gets tuned to God, itis alright.But if it is not so tuned, then nothing happens.The Basis of Nirapeksha Method is- Whether or not,mind is attuned toGod,it doesnot matter; but one's SELF should be attached to God. Here there isdirectrelationship of Self with God,with a total breach of ties, with themindintellect complex. Here the prime factors are conscience ( viveka)and believing(bhava) !Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B--------------------------------New Posting-Shree Hari-I had actually written a response to Pauls comment, but I slept onit, I wanted to focus on Mahalaksmi Dasi comments/query and I am gladI did, I will insert my new thoughts in brackets.A Benediction, (who was a mystic), made a wise comment, "you cannotdefeat the Ego, with the Ego".He also said, "simple is not always easy".Thus if you have a burning desire for the Beloved, believe that Hethat is at the Alter of your heart, will guide you. The easiest wayfor you will be truly revealed. (When the student is ready themaster will arrive).[ It is clear to me that you truly love theLord, he is you Beloved, you are reaching out to him with all yourdevotions, if you cannot find him in your Heart, you are notlooking , He is there He cannot not be there, dwell on this!]I mentioned with regards to Devotion B.G. 12.Now with regards to Meditation, I read chapter 6 in The Gita. To meit was the most wonderful expression on the subject that I have everread. Somethings touch ones soul, it did mine. I have seen Japamentioned by Sadhaks in various threads, I am familiar with thepractice, albeit the silent form, I knew it as the way of themantra. The power of it is that it brings the mind into a singlefocus, the sacred mantra. Thus meaning surrender to the mantra,and finally surrender the mantra.That final surrender of course is to GOD.Resorting to metaphors. Imagine one is at sea at night in a terriblestorm, the boat seems to be tearing apart under the strain of thestorm, your heart is full of fear, but you keep your eye on the lighthouse, because by means of its guidance lies your refuge, you libertyfrom the chaos. The single point is so important when one goes theway of meditation. (I say this with sincerity). Refer B.G. 6. 11-12.I hasten to add still deep silence may be achievable by some, withoutany recourse to anything else, such souls are truly blessed.A final point, if one tries to understand something, not in a logicalway, but, (this is hard for me to explain), but by means of theDivine, in very deep silence, then ones sense of reality can change.One has to take responsibility for this newly acquired reality, neverto be abandoned. The recent comments by brother Vyas were almostbrutal in their simplicity, how absolutely true they are.With Respect and Divine Love,Mike(Mike Keenor)-Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!Very insightful discussions taken place on the question:'How does one who is not able to immediately feel the Lord'spresence rise tothat level' as lead by Vyasji.I may echo them in words of my understanding.The one approach that has helped me is by coming in contact withTruth of"oneself" by direct experience bypassing the senses and mind and isconsistentwith Shankara's Aparokshanubhuti! This is to be done with lot ofdevotion andnot just intellectual exercise out of curiosity. It will make onefeel Lord'spresence immediately, provided one longs for Truth, same as Lord andis ready togive up his life if needed.How can one bypass mind, right?Burn with the desire "help me Lord to find out the mystery of "me"and "You, Iam not going to rest until I do". This desire is impersonal becauseif it issincere, it is coming from Lord Himself who wants to be discoveredthrough theapparant sadhaka! Lord Himself has identified with limitations ofbody-mindorganism of Sadhaka playing hide and seek leela, and yet remainingto bediscovered spontaneously! Impersonal desires get fulfilled!Personal desires indicate craving for objects as they come fromassumedseparation from Lord.This desire will take one inward beyond mind because mind's answerabout God'spresence will not be found satisfactory anymore. Until now God wasan image inthe mind based on everything one is told by others, read inscriptures and/orheard from saints. This image is seen as consisting of organisedthoughtsarising in Awareness due to sustained inward pull toward what liesbeyond. WhenAwareness is aware of Itself, there is a glimpse of Blissfulnesswithout anyobjectivity limting it. This is one's true nature or Lord's presencewithin,Pure Subjectivity(not Subject)!Once the Sadhak tastes it, every object of the world will lead himto thePresence within. Mind will cooperate and drown in Devotion!Sadhaka will not remain individual anymore, rather one withEverything arisingin pure Unconditioned, UndividedAwareness(Consciousness-Existence-Absolute-Brahman).Sadhana continues on its own till what seems to take time only frommind's pointof view, to merger in Absolute!Namaskaras..Pratap===================================================================Hari OmThanks to all Sadhaks for patient observation of my, RajendrajiBohra's and Meera Dassji's summarisations regarding The DisciplineOf Actionlessness (Karan Nirapeksha Saadhan). Now it is time foropen and frank discussions, question and answer sessions. Allsadhaks may now come up with their specific queries. Queriesreceived so far are predominantly insisting for "practice" andslowness , step by stepness involved in Paramatma Realisation andstress that Purification of Antahkarana (Mind, Intellect, Ego etc.)is very essential. Refer even fresh queries of Krishna Gopal,Golianjaneyulu, and even Paul Pooniah. It is understandable. We allare accustomed of achieving results in this world only by actions,practice, etc , therefore we all believe that by only karmas oractions even Paramatma Realisation will take place. That however isnot a correct assumption.For those Sadhaks who have generally observed like Paul Pooniah (Irequest Mike also to respond to him) the answer is that In fact Godis everywhere and therefore He is here also. We don't have to goanywhere to search for Him. He is at all times, therefore he is nowalso. We don't have to wait for a future time.He is in everybody, so He is in us also So there is no need to makeany efforts by us. He is the kindest..So we will not have to bedejected. He belongs to everybody therefore He is ours also.There will be automatic Love (Prem) for Him. He is all powerfu ,therefore we need not be fearful. He is unique/second to none,therefore we don't have to recognise Him / describe Him.Now what is needed ? He is present, Self is present ï¿½ where is thedelay? Our desire is needed ! Our correct acceptance is needed !Our willingness is needed ! Our looking at Him is needed ! Our mereglance at His presence right inside us is needed ! (Did not Mikeobserve ï¿½ go within ? ) That is all is needed ! In accepting ï¿½ O GodI am yours ï¿½ what do we need ? Any way kindly keep reading variouspostings and I am sure we will change our view point. Keep observingalso. Tell me with the above narration, can there be a simpler thingto do ? (Did not Mike also say so ? ) .For those Sadhaks who have supported their arguments by referingGita 6:25 and Patanjali Yoga Darshana and have insisted fordispassion / step by step slow process / need for purification ofAntahkarana /need for quietening the mind etc,- let me state that inGita AT LEAST 25 different methods of Paramatma Realisation havebeen described and explained by Lord Krishna for the benefit ofHumanity at large. Each method has got its own characteristics, ownspecific process, own requirement of time, own way of achieving, ownindividuality ! ! ! Verse 6:25 is not applicable to all the methodsof Realisation - it is applicable to only Dhyaan Yoga. (Meditation).The statement in a response/query that - "There is no other way ofQuietening of Mind" is neither correct nor of any importance toSelf ( Embodied Soul) who can at any point out of time can accept orrevise his existing acceptance/assumption to not only - MERE TOGIRDHAR GOPAL but also to DOOSARO NA KOI ! ! ! That is a simple anddirect power of YOU - the SELF- the embodied JEEVA ! It turns -indeed- the world upside down ! ! !How does it matter if mind is quite or fickle like a monkey ? ( Whatdo you say Mike ? )These AT LEAST 25 or more methods are broadly grouped "power wise"into three Yogas,- Jnana Yoga, Bhakti Yoga and Karma Yoga. Undereach of these three yogas there are many "independent individualmethods". Similarly from style/process wise, these ParamatmaRealisation methods have been grouped under two broad parts. Thosemethods which require aid of body/mind etc. are called "KaranSapeksha" Methods. Those methods which do not require any aid frombody/mind/intellect etc. instead require only SELF are called "KaranNirapeksha" Method. Under each of these two broad categories againthere are many "independent individual methods" We are at themoment discussing one or two of such Karan Nirapeksha Methods. Whilereference of Gita 6 : 24 is pursuant to one of the Karan SapekshaMethod viz Dhyaan Yoga (Meditation). Need for Purification ofAntahkarana, quietening of Mind , step by step slow process etc isneeded in that particular Sapeksha Saadhans AND NOT IN in NirapekshaSaadhans. In Nirapeksha sadhans the time required is much muchlesser. If you have intense desire, then time requiredis "KSHIPRAM" ï¿½ less than even one second ! In Dhyaan Yoga referredby Krishna Gopalji etc the time required may be even ages and ages !There you can become " Yoga Bhrashta" (fallen from effort) also.SUCH IS NOT THE CASE IN SAADHAN WHICH IS UNDER DISCUSSION. Hencereference of 6 : 24 here is wholly irrelevant.We shall elaborately discuss this subject in more detail in the nextposting . For the time being Saadhaks may note that in Gitajivarious Karan Sapeksha Sadhans - AT LEAST 16 or more differentmethods ï¿½ have in described in verses ï¿½ 4:25 to 30 ( 13 methods inall), 4:34, 6:10 to 28 ( Dhyaan Yoga), 8: 8 to 13, 15 : 11 etc. ,Similarly Karan Nirapeksha Saadhans - at least 10 or more differentmethods - have been described in Gitaji verses - 2:48, 2:52, 2:55,2;71, 3:17, 4:38, 5:12, 6:5, 8:14, 9: 26 to 28, 9 :30/31, 9:34,12:6/7, 12 ;8,, 12:9 to 12 :12 ( 4 methods), 18:62, 18:66 and 18 :73.There is a lot of difference therefore in time, process,independence, requirements in each of the aforesaid AT LEAST 25methods of Paramatma Realisation. Hence no individual one verse isalways applicable to all the methods.Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B==================================================================Hari Om3 articles have been posted on this Discipline of Actionlessness.Conclusion easily is that SELF is at the top of pyramid. It isconnected with the world - entire world through assumed affinity withEgo.SELF by way of acceptance / resolution generates the commands to Ego.From Ego onwards there is regime of world/nature only. Ego toIntellect to Mind to Sense Organs ( and to Organs of action) tosubject matters of sense organs.Body is a machine (inert) only- an automatic machine. This body isgoverned by Ego.Ego is governed by SELF.When SELF changes by change in acceptance - Ego ( Aham ) changes andentire operation of body changes.Since body is an automatic machine - everything changes INSTANTLY themoment you (SELF) change acceptance / assumption.How simple ! How practical ! !What time does it take to change assumption/acceptance from " I am ofthe world , world is mine, God also mine " to " Only God is mine,nothing else is mine" ?Not even a second - instant!With that your life changes!Jai Shree Krishna.Vyas N B-------------------------------Jai Shri KrishnaThe conclusion of this Discipline is that Self is connected with theworld through Ego which governs the body.When Self connects with Ego in fact Self is connecting with entireBody and with entire world/ nature.If you cut connection of Self with Ego - then disconnection withworld takesplace-in its entirety.Upon "disconnection with world" - Self in its pure form only remainsbehind along with Paramatma ( God )..Remain Impartial / Equi-poised / Equanimous in your work always.Neither like (Raag) nor dislike (Dvesha) anything. That is possibleonly when you do your "Duty" .Duty your body automatically does if you ( self) "become" of God andrenounce assumed affinity with world.When you do so you become "Ego-less"ï¿½ because Ego merely consistsof "me"ï¿½ & "mine" on one hand as representative of "SELF" and"likings" & "dislikings" on other hand as representative of theworld.That is all "Ego" is made of.So far your " Me" is Body-which is part of world. "Mine" isBody /Ego /World /car / house/ wife etc .Liking and Dislikings arefor worldly things.Hence as of today everything in your ego is World only.Change it now.Accept "Me" to be the SELF-part of God ; and "Mine" to be only theGod and and nobody/nothing elseMERE TO GIRDHAR GOPAL, DOOSARO NA KOIOnly God is mine, nothing else is mine.So "Me" is God. "Mine" is God."Likings & Dislikings" then get replaced by "Equanimity"ï¿½-automatically - with the above acceptance.God is always positioned in Equanimity. Another name of Equanimityis God.So in your Ego only God is there !Where is individual "Ego" now ? Gone for ever !Where is "I" now ? Who are you now ?I am God - Aham Brahmasmi !What a gift Gitaji and Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj has given to theworld ! !Narayan NarayanRajendra J BohraTHE MAGIC OPERATION OF DISCIPLINE OF ACTIONLESSNESSWhen Lord Krishna stated in Gita 9:30/31 - "kshipram bhavatiDharamatma". -(meaning that one who has rightly resolved/accepted -he instantly(kshipram) becomes sinless/stainless and pious soul- a Saint)-the Lord in fact advocated the power of acceptance and Discipline ofActionlessness only.Here in fact Lord used these words of instantly becoming virtuouswith reference to" a most sinful among all the sinners" person!Instantly one becomes virtuous upon acceptance because basically weare part of Paramatma only- because we are basically stainless only.We become sinners only because of our affinity with the world, whichin fact is only a transitory period of life for sinner and all of us.As soon as we change our EGO and become of Paramatma , our affinitywith the world is wiped out. In case , we start hating sins andresolve/accept that we have to adore Paramatma only, we caninstantly become virtuous ( Dharamatma). In " EGO" where there isdesire for the world , there is inclination to Paramatma also.If this inclination to Him is strengthened - desire for the world iswiped out and God Realisation takes no time !Consider the following to understand as to how realisation takes notime.Once you change your acceptance/assumption from existing " I am ofthe World" to " I am of God, only God is mine, nothing else ismine" -which change of assumption can take place in an instant- your roleends then and there.THEN your body takes charge AUTOMATICALLY.You remain actionless throughout - after change in acceptance.Your body is an automatic machine like computer ( computer needs acommand only) Your body does not need SELF thereafter and it keepsdoing Karma suo motto strictly in accordance with your acceptance. Sofar the body was suo motto thinking about the world only because youhad assumed that " I am of the world" - so long as you don't changeyour assumption you always have problems of "not able toconcentrate" at the time of meditating/ naam japa etc.- Because ofworldly thoughts haunting your mind- arising suo motto andautomatically- uncontrollably ! !When you change your assumption to. " I am of God " your bodystarts functioning AUTOMATICALLY in strict accordance with yourchanged acceptance and suo motto starts doing Duty only and yourmind rapidly moves towards Equanimity- which in fact is yournatural state only. It stops taking interest in the world ,because "SELF" has changed and gets withdrawn from the world- hencemind also withdraws and becomes "equanimous" ! !Your intellect rapidly/ instantly stablises and your mind becomesthoughtfree very fast.Thus your role ends the moment you have correctlyassumed/resolved/accepted.It is precisely therefore Krishna said - " He should be considered aSaint for he has rightly resolved".This is the magic of actionlessness ! !Hari OmTHE MAGIC OF EQUANIMITY"Eqanimity" is an actionless process and it enters the mind of asadhak. The last write up explained how AUTOMATICALLY ANDEFFORTLESSLY it enters the mind upon acceptance. Here is a write upwhich will prove the automaticness, the rapidity and theactionlessness involved in Paramatma Realisation by Equanimity andnext write up will similarly prove "YOUR BEING WITH PARAMATMA "effortlessly by resorting to Equanimity. Readers are welcome toobserve reg authentication of process by Gitaji, and otherscriptures, reg rapidness (instantness)and reg actionlessnessinvolved in the process. Serious Sadhaks may also take print outs andread again and again till the concept sinks in their mind. Then askQuestions. The question and answer session will then take divineshape. The best way to read this summary of writings of Swamiji - isto put yourself into an Equaminous /impartial zone, without any biasfor whatever you have so far understood/learnt/believed. Read mypresentations as a challenge to your mental equipment. Then MrConscience will take over your mind and you will smoothly understandthe topic./actionlessness involved therein and easiness/quickness ofthe path. Then you will understand why Krishna used "KSHIPRAM" wordin Gita 9:31. Basis of this Aricle is Gita 2:71.Where does God reside ? The correct answer is ï¿½..in "Equanimity" ! We all want peace & happiness. We all areseeking peace & happiness for millions & millions of years. We arecoming & going, taking birth & dying in this world from timeimmemorial. We genuinely believe in Godï¿½. it is not that we do notbelieve in God at all. We are good people. But still we are nothappy. WHEN we are continuously walking on the path for millions & trillions of years THEN even if the path to God; to peace & happiness; to freedom is a very long path many of us would havereached the goal by now. At least we would have made some progresstowards our goal with reference to the distance to be covered in thepath. But it does not appear to us that we have made any progress.We are still fearful; tense; anxious; deficient, uncertain & struggling. We are running; running & running ï¿½ may be becausewe find others also doing the same. Why this scenario has arisen ?The simple reason is that path is not "straight". The pathis "round" . What progress can be made when you are running ona "round" path ? Where can you reach ? How then to make progress ?Simple answer is ï¿½ï¿½ "Rise above the circle (round)" ! Whatis "circular" ? The relativity/ absence of absolute / "duality" isroundness ! With every pleasure, pain is associated. Whatevercomes, goes. Whatever begins, ends. Whatever rises, sets. Everyhappiness; pleasure is relative & temporary. Hence you seekpermanent happiness & peaceï¿½ an absolute & not relative peace & happiness. So the circle is "dualities". How to rise abovethe "dualities" of pleasure & pain; health & disease; gloom & gaiety;profit & loss; praise & criticism; affluence & poverty; victory & defeat; birth & death, good & bad, right & wrong, fame & ill fameï¿½.. & so on ? Answer is "Equanimity" (Samata) !"Equanimity" consists of doing your all Karmas in an equanimousmanner. In order to do Karma with Equanimity you need to eliminateindividual likings (Raag) & dislikings (Dvesha) as the primemotivators of your Karmas. In other words the prime motivator orreason of your Karmas should not be "desire" but should beyour "duty". We have already explained in previous write up as to howIMMEDIATELY upon your ACCEPTANCE , the body starts doing DUTY onlyAUTOMATICALLY, EFFORTLESSLY.MAGICAL AND AUTOMATIC OPERATION OF EQUANIMITY"Only that person who is Nishkaam (desireless); Nirahankar (Egoless);Nispruha (fearless; carefree) and Nirmam (Mamataless) ï¿½ï¿½. getspermanent & divine peace & happiness" (Gita 2/71)ï¿½ WHEN you practice Equanimity THEN you eliminate the very rootcause of desires, the likings & dislikings (Raag & Dvesha).ï¿½ WHEN you relinquish Likings & Dislikings THEN youbecome "desireless" (Nishkaam).ï¿½ WHEN you become desireless THEN your Intellect stabilises.ï¿½ WHEN your Intellect stabilises THEN Mr. Conscience awakens in youto take charge. You acquire Discrimination. You fix the goal ï¿½.Freedom, Liberation, God Realisation ! From Conscience (Viveka)arises the sense of "Duty". From Conscience arises "Fearlessness".ï¿½ WHEN your Intellect stabilises THEN your Karmas start gettinggoverned by your "duty" and not by your desires.ï¿½ WHEN your Karmas are governed by "duty" THEN the "sense ofdoership" in you gets extinguished.ï¿½ WHEN the "sense of doership" in you gets extinguished and thereare no "likings or dislikings" THEN your Ego automatically getsextinguished because Ego consists only of likings and dislikings andsense of doership. You become Egoless (Nirahankar).ï¿½ WHEN you do your "duty " with no desires THEN youbecome "Nirmam". Your "mineness" is gone because when you do yourduty with no desires you are in fact indulged in "service". It is alaw that "service destroys mamata (mineness)".ï¿½ WHEN you do your Karmas as a part of duty without expectinganything in return THEN you become "fearless" (Nispruh).ï¿½ As a combined effect of all the above you do not have any of thefollowing:-* D esire "to get" something;* Desire to live* Fear of death* Tendency "to do" something.ï¿½ WHEN there is no Raag/Dvesha; no sense of doership & noorientation towards the result, THEN the Karma immediatelybecomes "Sattwik" Karma as per Gita.ï¿½ WHEN your Karma is "Sattwik" and when you do not do a Karma with asight on the results THEN your "Karma" becomes "Akarma" within themeaning of Gita. Your Karmas then cease to give you results.ï¿½ WHEN there are no results THEN the "CHAIN" or the Bondage ofaction & reaction of Karma & Result gets broken and you are free.This is Liberation/Jeevan Mukti/Kalyan/Salvation/Freedom/Moksha.Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B------------------------------Hari OmIn the last Article I had explained the effortless and instantprocess of Acceptance , then automatic process of your doing yourduties, then automatic process of entering of Equanimity into yourmind and then automatic process of your getting Fearless, Egoless,Worryless and Mamataless. Hence you became eligible to invoke Gita2:71 - automatically _ JUST BY ACCEPTANCE ! IN "KSHIPRAM TIME" ! Nowthis write up makes you relaxed in the loving arms of your Daddy-Paramatma !DISCONNECTION / LIBERATIONYou are "connected" with this world through "Ego" only because "Ego"controls & gives command to Intellect in the form of Likings;Dislikings; self gratifying and desire driven Karmas (Buddhi).Intellect controls & gives commands to "Mind" (Mann). "Mind" controlssense organs (eyes, ear, skin, tongue, nose). Sense organs areengaged in their subject matters (Eyes to the form; ears to thesound ; tongue to the taste; skin to the touch; nose to the smelletc.) The world consists of such subjects matters; activitiestherein & people engaged therein. The "world" has nothing else.Now Ego controls your intellect. WHEN your Karmas are based on thebasis of your "duty" & not on the basis of your desires THEN Your"Intellect" has no choice but to get stabilised; to get fixed; to getfocussed to your goal ... Liberation; freedom from sorrow. YourIntellect gets free time because it is not engaged in transferringcommands of "Ego" to "Mind". It has nothing to "instruct" the Mindregarding "the world". The Intellect loses interest in the world.Your Mind is servant of your Intellect. WHEN Intellect has no commandreceived from "Ego"- (Ego gives command ) THEN it cannot provide anycommand to your mind. Your mind then loses interest in the senseorgans & the subject matters of sense organs. "Mind" then startsthinking in terms of "Gyaan" (knowledge); "Bhakti" (Devotion) & "Varaigya" (detachment). No body neither the Self; nor the Ego ;nor the Intellect nor the Mind remains interested in the worldlysituations/circumstances/happenings/positionings; in the worldlypeople; and in the worldly activities. They remain connected withthe world but in an "equanimous" manner i.e. physically but not byEgo, Mind & Intellect .... Only through "Duty".Once the disconnection with the world arises in your Mind as you areno more impacted by the dualities thrown by the world before you inthe form of pleasure & pain, happiness & sorrow, victory & defeat,fame & ill-fame, health & disease, praise & criticism, good andbad, right & wrong, birth & death etc.WHEN you are not impacted at all by the dualities. THEN you are saidto be Liberated !WITH YOUR DADDY"Ego" consists only of "Raag" & "Dvesha". It gets manifested in theform of "sense of doership" WHEN all three are gone THEN your "Ego"starts getting extinguished. WHEN the "Ego" is gone THEN the sense ofindividuality ("Jeevahood") is gone & "the connection" with the worldis gone. This Universe contains only 3 elements. Jeeva (You, thepure You); Jagat (the World) and Jagdish (the God). WHENJeeva "disconnects" with Jagat. THEN what remains behind is Jeeva & Jagdish. That is the end of the path. That is your goal. That isthe real purpose of getting human birth.It is exactly why the God has time and again in the Gita statedthat "I am equanimous", "I am equal to all creatures". When youpractice equanimity, you are in fact trying to become equal toGod. As you start realising and experiencing more & more that allthe things made by God are "equanimous" you become more & moreenthusiastic (take any example, Sun, Fire, Water, Air, and Earth -all are equal to all. Any one who touches fire, burns his fingerswhoever he may be. Any one who drinks water, quenches his thurstwhoever he may be)With your Intellect already stabilised, you start enjoying yourcompany with "equanimity" WHEN you are continuously indulged inequanimity THEN in fact you are continuously with your Father, theGod.It is then that "Shraddha", "Bhakti" & "Prem" in that order arise inyou because you start feeling clearly as to how your Daddy - God isalready sitting in the same "Equanimous" state and controlling theworld effortlessly through mother Nature. You start believing thatyou are part of God. You start seeking Him. You start admiringHim. You start glorifying Him. You start loving Him. You startunderstanding Him. You start singing his praises - so that you maybecome Him.Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B--------------------------------JaiShri Krishna,"Peace" means - to become "mentally and physically quite", not to doanythingWHEN we have relationship with an activityTHEN we have relationship with the World/NatureWHEN there is relationship with the worldTHEN there is unrest/lack of peace/sorrow/BondageWHEN connection with world is continuous and unrest, lack of peaceincreasesTHEN a velocity to do karmas develops in you to remove the unrest,get peace but again through world onlyThus a vicious circle forms. Your relationship with activity keepsstrenghthening.WHEN you act with a "nishkaam bhaav" (desireless motive)THEN velocity of doing karma in you starts getting eliminatedWHEN velocity is goneTHEN you get established in EquanimityWHEN you get established in EquanimityTHEN peace generates in youWHEN peace generates in youTHEN you have two options, to enjoy that peace or to renounce thatpeaceWHEN you renounce that peace (that is don't get impacted by thatpeace or don't enjoy (bhog) that peaceTHEN you realise Paramatma (Gita 6:3)So the process starts with nishkaam bhaav - which is effortless andactionless !!By "activity" in - equality arises. By "in-activity", Equanmityarises - without any efforts of any sort whatsoever.Once you are equanimous, you are as good as Paramatma. You remainseparate from the world having no mental connection. No desires.Only Duty. You are free, you are liberated, you are MAST (blissful).You then attain permanent bliss - self proven, automatic,activityless, prideless, egoless, PEACE .(Shaant Ras).Narayana NarayanaRajendra J BohraHari OmAs indicated by Lord Krishna to Arjuna in Gitaji 9:30/31 and asgreatly simplified by Swamiji Shri Ramsukhdasji, one can realiseParamatma instantly, at this very moment.The topic "Discipline of Actionlessness" undoubtedly is the gift ofSwamiji (Maharajji) to the world at large, however as indicatedearlier much background is needed for a deeper dive into thissubject. Mostly everything presented is from Swamiji's books /lectures. Let us get a flavor of this divine work by starting withcontemplating on some thoughts / insights on "Into a Peaceful Zone."INTO A PEACEFUL ZONE1. If we are quiet we are positioned in God. "Peace" is the causein realizing God (Gita 3/6). "Peace" comes to us by "disconnectionwith world". It is a law that every disconnection generates instantpeace, even if it is disconnection of waste from the body (Gita12/12).2. World is moving away from us continuously, without anyrest. "Momentum" never remains permanent. "Positioning" can remainpermanent. "Change" in world is dependent upon an "unchangeable"platform which is "Self". "Connection with world" is temporarywhereas, "Disconnection with world" is permanent. The ultimatespiritual discipline is ï¿½ "momentum-less; "Action-less"; "Peaceful.3. "Peace" is existing effortlessly and automatically. We only haveto "disconnect" with the element which generates unrest viz. "me"and "mineness" with the body & the world.4. In the element called "God" ï¿½ there is neither "action"nor "matter". "To do" is also an "actionNot to do" is also anaction. We don't have to either "do" or "not do". We don't have tobe concerned with "availability" or "absence" of any matter/worldlything. Simply "Inner Silence". There is no thought even of God inthe ultimate stage. "Na Kinchidapi chintayet" (Gita 6/25).5. To realise God, we have to leave "labour". We have toadopt "rest", quiteness. We have to accept peace. "To acceptPeace" means ï¿½ to experience our automatic, obvious, self-proven,effortless, natural positioning into Element called "God" or elementcalled "Self". "To experience" ï¿½ means we have to firmly believe itis so.6. "Self" has no capacity "to act". "Thinking" is an act of mind andnot of "Self". "Self" can only accept or reject, associate ordisassociate. Since in "Self" there is no "activity" ï¿½ thereforeonly "Self" realizes God.7. If we are "thinking (Chintan)", you are positioned in the worldbecause world is existing only in our thoughts. It is appearingas "existing" ï¿½ only because we pay respect to it. We like to seeit as "existing" ï¿½ because we are "existing" and we feel thatthe "connection" with world generates Peace and Happiness. Butthe world is constantly changing. It is "Asat" (unreal). There isno "present" in the world. The "future" is getting convertedinto "past" every fraction of a second.8. "Thoughtless" or "Peaceful" state, while being fully awake, ispossible, and it is easy, but we must have "willingness" .9. We can live without "thoughts" as we are in Deep Sleep."Thoughts" are always in respect of that element which is "non-existing". "Present" can be never a subject matter of "thought" ï¿½it is subject matter of "action" or "inaction". Only "past"and "future" can be subject matter of "thought". Both do not exist.10. As "thought" is always about an element which "does not exist"and as there is no existence of "world" ï¿½ disconnection with worldleads us to a thoughtless state. This disconnection is notphysical. It is by "Self" while fully awake. This disconnection iseither by "rejection" by the "Self" of unilaterally made connectionwith the world or by "acceptance" of that element whichis "present".Sadhaks now can ask questions on the material shared so far. Theymust come out with doubts if any on the above ï¿½ so thatdeliberations are swift and productive.PranaamJai Shree KrishnaVyas N B-Shree HariRam RamSwamiji has written extensively on this subject based on his 80years deep and intense study of the Gita, Ramcharitra Manas andother scriptures. He has summarized the essence of these texts andboldly stated quoting scriptures that realizing God is not likeacquiring things of the world that require effort. God cannot berealized through activity and effort (i.e. involvement ofmind/body/intellect). Due to the vastness of this topic, only onepoint is being addressed -Swamiji has emphasized having a relationship with Bhagwaan, and thatrelationship is not through some practice or effort. A relation willchange only by acceptance at the Self (Atma) level. I belong toKrishna and Krishna is my very own. This body is not me, nor mine.Until this acceptance doesn't happen at the Self level, nothing willbe gained. We may study or do as many different spiritual practicesas possible, but all it will do is bloat our ego, and in the endnothing will be gained. We will only attach another relation that Iam so knowledgeable, I have the best Guru, I have read the Gitathree times over. etc. etc.Acceptance by Self is best, that is why it is called "karannirpeksha" i.e. only through the predominance of discrimination(between real and unreal). The reason is that the essence of God isbeyond any action i.e. no activity can reach the essence of God.Therefore it is "immediate" on acceptance, and there is "no effort"required - simply acceptance, just like earlier example of newlymarried wife's acceptance of husband.Meera DasRam RamSir,Mike stated that the simplest method is to quiten the mind andsettledown, go insideto the divine. This is a fature that everyone has the conscience withand not divine. This conscience can be dulled and if we nurture it itdirect the ways of common good to all, a clear conscience.Thefeature is simple and true, but none can visit divine so easily. Thesupreme is beyond human vision and the presence of Him is understoodonly by the effects of His creation, which we call nature.Thank you,Paul ponniah..-Slowing of mind or dhairya or dhiir -gambhiir is involuntary resultof self realization by cutting down branches of ignorance by repeatedcontemplation or practice of purification of thoughts. With increasein purity, it moves up from specialization to generalization. Whenspecializations are immersed in generalization or abstract truth,movement of mind ceases. There is no other way of quietening of mind.Bhagway Gita says, Urdhva Moolam, Adhah Shaakhaam as the structure ofawareness of self or the origin. The general or Mool or rootknowledge is on the top, and as it is divided into branches flowingdown, these create perspectives by differring points of view andresult in conflicts. So you have growing different subjects insciences, technologies and politics in conflicts with one another.These branching actions are called Subjects or Vishay or poison ofmind.How does the branches first come to exist? What is the structure ofthe tree of creation? Mool or general is void with infinitepossibilities. RamCharit Maanas says, Tryah Shool Nirmoolanam ShoolPanim. This means, the origin of the three branches or TriShool (Sat,Raj Tam guna) is NirMool (without origin). Shiva is holding theNirMool (without origin), from which the TriShool is originated. Theword Kcchatria has meaning in the word itself. Kchhatria is gettingrid of the three Guna and immerse into Brahman. Kchhay = loss of,Triya = three Gunas. Arjun was Kchhatria as He was enduring aprocess of understanding to root of knowledge or the generalknowledge from the war of MahaBhaarata (Dharma Yuddha) wheninteraction amonst three branches or dharma of Sat, Raj, Tam gunatook place.RamCharit Maanas saysRamam Kaamari Shaivayam Bhav Bhay Harnam Kal MatteBh Singham,Yogindram, Zyan Gamyam, Guna Nidhi Vigitam, NirGunam NirVikaram.It says step by step movement of self realization in a prayer to SriRam 'Ramam Kaamari Shaiyam i.e., Sri Ram who is cleaning from ourmindunsuitable desires;Bhav Bhaya Haranam i.e., removing fear of the world and"Kaal Mattebh Singham i.e., acting like loin in removal of theconstraints of time; and then,Yogiindram, Zyan Gamyam = getting our mind introspective, and let itbe moving/progressing in right direction with logic and selfawareness without assumptions 'Guna Nidhi Vijitam i.e., conqueringocean of theGunas, NirGuman, Nirvikaram i.e., becoming NirGuna and without error.RegardsK G(Krishna Gopal)--I am happy that good things are discussed in this area. Itseems that we need to do saadhana repeatedly. Sri Krishnasuggested 'sanaihi sanairuparamet -- should through gradual practiceattain tranquility and fixing the mind on God. 'Yatoyato nischarati'he should repeatedly fix it on God.The PatanjaliYogasutra suggests 'Abhyaasa vairaagybhyam 'practice and dispassion in yoga. Lord Krishna also suggested 'Abhyaasenatu Kounteya Vairaagyenach gruhyate' practice and dispassionare necessary in saadhana to the saadhakaas or people practicingKarana Nirapeksha saadhana."golianjaneyulu"---Hari OmThis refers to the observations of Sadhaks on the posting made sofar.Reg Prabhakarji's observation that "practice" is the essence , I muststate that Gitaji does not to any "practice" to be resortedparticularly in the Discipline of Actionlessness, where eventhe "vilest sinner" becomes virtous( Dharmatma) and secures lastingpeace in a "kshipram" time (time which is less than even a second-instantly). He so becomes merely by "acceptance/resolution" whichagain is instant.Once tere is acceptance, all other processes right upto ParamatmaRealisation are AUTOMATIC, SPONTANEOUS, EFFORTLESS and ACTIONLESS !Here neither any eyes are to be closed (Meditation) , nor any nose isto be pressed (Pranayaam), nor any ears are to be closed(nididhyasan) nor any tedious procedure is warranted. All startswith an acceptance by SELF and in no time you have achieved thepurpose of human life.Regarding observations of Krishna Gopalji ( KG ) let me state thatonly in human birth a Jeeva can change his "SVABHAAV " and in noother form of life. Jeeva can change it in an instant , if he iswilling to change. That is why only "vilest sinner" becomes Dharmatma(Gita 9:31)Mike Keenor has indeed captured the entire subject in just onesentence - "Simplified says, quieten down the mind, go within" -that is divine. That indeed is amazing. Absolutely precise andaccurate . Thanks - please keep observing.Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B-Reply to query of MahalaxmijiJai Shri KrishnaWho has stated and where that devotional service, arti, cooking foodfor Krishna etc are inactions? We have not even touched upon thesepoints so far. We are indeed happy that you are indulged into thoseactivities. But here is a method of acceptance which makes your eachand every activity - not only cooking for Lord Krishna , or doingArti or discussing about His pastimes - but wHATEVER else you aredoing also equally that effective and productive ! . 24 Hours aday! That is possible only when you" become" of Him. You " become"of Paramatma by accepting - " Only He is mine, Nothing else is mine".So where is the contradiction? What is the query?We have not stated that devotional acts are bad or useless any where?From which posting the doubt has arisen in you? . However if you donot accept your exclusive relationship with Him , then the actionsreferred by you will only be fresh /new good/ sattvik Karmas . Theywill create Bondage for you, they still will give you results. Youwill not be able to get freedom from Bondage unless you haveexclusively accepted Krishna as yours. ( Doosara na Koi- Nothing elseis mine) Thereafter whether you do Arti or cook food for Him or notwill not be material - your each and every action will be a divyakarma - because SELF has changed ! When you will see a movie thenalso you will be deemed to be a devotee/ bhakta by Krishna- but onlywhen you accept what Swamiji has preached.24 hours a day - 365/366 days a year you shall be devotee of Krishnathen only- not otherwise. Be sure on that. Because then your falseself also remains in existence. Unless you become of Krishna - thetrue self remains under glove/cover only ! !A traditional Indian Wife never speaks the name of her husband. Doesthat mean that she is not of her husband? How she is not of herhusband? She has "accepted" ! Now whether she utters his name ornot, cooks food for him or not, how does that matter- once she has"become" of her husband ? Isn't it?Hence once you have "become" of Paramatma by "actionless/effortlessacceptance" then only the actions stated by you will become "divyakarmas" ( Divine actions) - not before that.We are all trying so far to tell you the importance of thatacceptance !Narayana NarayanaRajendra J Bohra--Priy Sadhaks,This is very crucial question. It is the aim for all of us. Accordingto Swamiji Attainment of god is really effortless. Noteit "EFFORTLESS". Taking that clue I tried to see what effortlessmeans. We may feel so many things happening in our body which areeffertless. Therefore I feel attainment & presence by experiencingheart beats in me and i feel its gods work going on. If trere is workthen there must be some one doing it ? Taking that lead I feel God'spresence in me and similarly in everybody. Comtemplate on this. maygod bless all of us by making us feel the all pervading effortlessly.ThanxRaja Gurdasani-----------------------------QUESTION: Kindly elaborate as to why accepting, rejecting,associating and disassociating are not actions as the item 6 belowseems to imply.6. "Self" has no capacity "to act". "Thinking" is an act of mind andnot of "Self". "Self" can only accept or reject, associate ordisassociate. Since in "Self" there is no "activity" ï¿½ thereforeonly "Self" realizes God.Jay Shree Krishna.Hemendra Parikh--Hari OmTo the question as to how there is no action involved in acceptanceor rejection, or love (Prem), devotion, desireless motive, (nishkaambhaav), remembrance (smriti),realisation, equanimity, experience,rejection, association, surrender, belief, faith, trust etc.- the answer is that there is no "tool" - Ego, Intellect, Mind, fivesenses e.g eye, ear, nose, skin, tongue and organs of action such ashands, legs etc - involved there. No tool at all !There is no movement of performance involved in acceptance etc.An "action" is first conceived in the mind. The previous body(form/place of existence) of every action is "mind" only. On accountof its nature of understanding the skill of performance, thisexpansion into the activity pertains to the mind. Mind is "the seedof those actions". The fruits or result of any action thereforeoccurs only to this mind. Actions exist thus first in the mind inthe form of imagination or will or sankalpa/desire.."The seed of action" - is the movement of mind or volition.Further the action must give results. There should then be a causefor action. There should be a desire/will existing in the mind to getactivated and attain movement or volition.Now in acceptance say of a Paramatma by a person, of a father by ason there is no involvement of ego, intellect, mind, hands, legs,eyes etc.. Mind is not involved because there is no knowledge fieldin which mind can travel i.e. can acquire movement or volition. Whennothing is known then what thoughts can arise, what activity mind canindulge into? What will or imagination can occur in respect of thatelement about which nothing is known by the mind- which is beyondmind? What is thinkable there? Nothing in fact. There is no causeinvolved for movement or volition of mind in acceptance, surrender,belief, faith, trust,devotion, prem etc.Entry into the mind of any reflections or experiences or conscienceor realisation or pure knowledge or equanimity and automatic arisingof any remembrance etc are not actions of mind. There the mind is amirror only. What is action of water when sun gets reflected there?What action do you do when someone enters your house? It is action ofother not of you.The direct experience of all of us also suggests that mind is notinvolved in acceptance or love etc. What kind of mind a child canboast of? Thoughts? How easily and how solidily he accepts hismother. Does he know as to how his mother is his mother? What can hismind can think about when he does not know anything? If he canaccept - then it gets proved that mind etc are not involved inacceptance.No knowledge, power, action, capacity, ability, labour, learning,education, practice, process, art, time etc is needed in acceptance.Only SELF is needed. What time does it take to accept? Not even afraction of a second- in an instant !When acceptance is made by self, then there is no forgetfulness. Itis absolute. Even without remembering one remembers always that he ismarried, or he is a brahmin (caste) or he is Indian/American orson/wife of So and So . Acceptance by SELF is that powerful !Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B----Shree Hari-Mahalaksmi Dasi,It is clear that you have a great desire to be at one with Lord.Is that not wonderful? There are many people so caught up in thehurly-burly of life who do not give such things a second thought.That desire you have will ensure your success, never loose sight ofit. Also you have come to this site and asked for direction. Manylikeme could well have used such assistance, but did not know of it.I started looking at Bhagavad Gita :12 in response to your question,started to pick out a verse or two, then realized the whole chaptershould be read.You will have noticed a common theme in the Sadhaks responses,simplified says, quieten down the mind, go within.With Respect and Divine Love,Mike(Mike Keenor)--NEW QUESTION:my respect and gratitude to all in this forum,I have some questions on the initial material, which I pray I canask in a clear way, without any prejudice. To begin...#6... "Self" has no capacity "to act". "Thinking" is an act of mindand not of "Self". "Self" can only accept or reject, associate ordisassociate. Since in "Self" there is no "activity" ï¿½ thereforeonly "Self" realizes.My question arises from my own training in BhagavadGita/spiritual discipline. I have always understood that we have amaterial body, and ego, which are separate from the true ego andspiritual form, which is now covered over. The material body iscovering, or "fitting" over the true self much like a glove....whichtakes the perfect contour of the original form. The true selfperforms actions in relation to the Supreme....these actions are inthe form of devotional activities, including but not limited to suchthings as offering arati to the Lord, cooking food and makingofferings on the altar to the deities/pictures of the Lord, (or thealtar within the heart), reading, discussing, etc. about the Lord.In other words, this activity which we are here engaging in, thisdiscussion about the nature of the soul and it's connection with theSupreme, would be classified, according to my understanding, asactivity of a true spiritual nature. It is not inactivity. This isnot the same as sitting and writing about a person of the materialworld, as it is centered around the Supreme Lord. Hence, the qualityof the activity is what would clarify it as a true spiritual actionof the soul, or a mundane activity relating only to the body. Bhag.Gita 5.6 substantiates this..."Unless one is engaged in thedevotional service of the Lord, mere renunciation of activitiescannot make one happy. The sages, purified by works of devotion,achieve the Supreme without delay." Please clarify.Sincere thanks, Mahalaksmi Dasi-To quieten the mind and enjoy freedom thoughts occur to all providedpeople develop vairagya and practice in that direction. Really hardis that but krishna says it is possible through the repetion andwill.In this process some achieve siddhi and some a little late andsome never.This is so depending upon their mind set up anddetermination.More number of people are afraid to do this. It is likeyoga master getting a fundamental response guruji if i close my eyesi am afraid there is pitch darkness and i cannot stand.guruji encourages no. be not afraid slowly you hit upon light andthat is om and that is the manistation of the god either in form orsound. proceed . experience has no substitute in this direction . Itis like krishna saying tasmat yuddhyasva bharata. Here bharata saysdeeep interest in self because nation and the king are one's own.om samprabhakar c l-Shram (effort), Pari-s-shram ( act of reducing effort) and Ashram(effortlessness) are different condition of work in an environmentvis-a-vis ones' state of nature (swabhaav). Any work is achievedeither by effort (shram), or by technique (parisshram), or gets doneby doing nothing (ashram). It all depends on how is the work againstswabhaav, called effort or shram like pushing cart uphill. By goinguphill by using automobile or car, is a parishram (shram but in adifferent way) because it is an act of overcoming effort bytechnique. And finally, ashram which is effortlessness by gravity(natural) pull of cart from higher altitude to lower altitude.Applying this principle to living being, it is natural for monkey tojump from tree to tree, and men can just walk. It applies in same wayin organizations. Thus, a work is difficult or easy is not aboutphysical sciences but depends on nature (swabhaav) of hose doing it.When Sri Krishna says about Ashram or Varna (color, personality traits) -Ashram (in effortless state), He means it by individuals' self nature, and condition of effortlessness or dharma. Sri Krishna said to Arjun that His fighting war is certain no matter what, as it is natural or involuntary action of Kchatria. He thus had no choice, and Bhagwat Gita only explained it how the nature works inside every living and non-living being, and creating illusion of choices.Einstein also came to same conclusion in studying relativity, and position of observers (points of views) limiting the vision.RegardsK G(Krishna Gopal)-------------------------------Kindly elaborate as to why accepting, rejecting, associating and disassociating are not actions as the item 6 below seems to imply.Jay Shree Krishna.Hemendra Parikh---By some strange coincidence I became member of this group. After becoming member, I scanned through the Gita Talk web site and was really surprised to see the depth of answers given to various questions. I am genuinely interested in knowing about the Discipline of Actionlessness. And I am looking forward to it. I totally agree with Vyas N. B. that such deliberations can yield results only in a serious and sarcasm free environment. Infact, personally I don't mind being called "blind" also so long as I receive the light from such learned battery of contributors. May be some day my blindness also will get cured (Like Mike's Coal basket). I liked also immensely the replies given by Mike Keenoor, Mira Dass, Naga Narain and of course Vyas N.B.If permitted by moderator, I will also like to present my doubtsbefore this forum.Murli Manohar Purohit-Question: How does one who is not able to immediately feel the Lord's presence rise to that level? What is the path of attaining what some individuals have without effort, and how is it that they have this? many thanks, Mahalaksmi Dasi-Please keep trying various Yog and the efforts will accumulate to achieve Moksh if not in this life then carried to the next, according to Lord krishn.Dr BalMukund Bhala.--To suggest that only "siddha" can answer such high level question is a form of very low level sarcasm. Even Swamiji in his last Will referred himself as sadhak only. Such remarks discourage and deter the genuine and willing participants to share their thoughts and should be cut off by Moderator himself at the outset or words like blind leading blind.Long list of other adjectives such as "old conservative practice of arranged marriage" can be misconstrued or misunderstood, and therefore must be avoided.I am myself a humble reader and follower of the ways which Swamiji has indicated. I would be happy if whole of my life I can remain sadhak only. Mira Dassji, Vyasji, Pratapji, G Vaidyanathanji, Mike Keenorji , Sharmaji, Bohraji, Naga Narayanji, KG , Adrienji, Papruniaji etc - they all and many others are contributing so seriously in deliberations , why can't we learn from them? I request Vyasji to proceed with his oblations in this Jnana Yagya- undeterred, fearlessly. We all are sadhaks only and love to remain that way only. Of course we will ask questions .Ramchandra--Dear Sadaks,Prahalad and Durva in childhood attained divinity.Thirugnanasambader attain when 5 years old. Vaishnavite Alwar Namalwar attained divinity at the age as a child crawling. HOW? Sadaks we all know that life span does not end when body dies. The soul along with 5 kosas and vasanas has to enter a womb to fulfil it`s vasanas, perform it`s karmas etc.The above said saints already attained , so it is effortless to them as they already put in efforts in earlier births. Examples: Devaki and Vasudev were in Sanyasa Marg in earlier birth. When Sri Vishnu appeared they asked boon that Bagavan to be their child and so it happened. Jada Bharatha was Bhathayogiswar in 1st birth, desired to rare a deer and was born as deer 2nd birth and in 3rd birth he attained moksha. But in his 3rd birth he was born with divinity without effort.Vaali in Sri Ramayan was killed by Sri Rama. But Vaali realized divinity at his last breath after Sri Rama discussion attaining liberation gives moksha effortlessly.NamasteB..Sathyanarayan--SitaRam SitaRam ki jai.Naam japa (name recitation) open many doors. Have full faith in God and japa of His name, all the time; whenever you have a chance. You will see things will come out in your favour and your faith will strengthen and you will feel the presence of God.Sher Agrawal-------------------------Question: How does one who is not able to immediately feel the Lord's presence rise to that level? What is the path of attaining what some individuals have without effort, and how is it that they have this? many thanks, Mahalaksmi Dasi---Hari OmThe humanity at large, for all times to come in future, shall remain indebted to Param Shraddheya Swamiji Shri Ramsukhdasji Maharaj who by his extensive research and power of simple expression proved that if you are willing, you can realise Paramatma instantly- just as told by Lord Krishna to Arjuna in Gitaji 9:30/31.The Geeta Talk Moderator has quite appropriately captioned the topic for discussion as " Discipline of Actionlessness". This discipline undoubtedly is the gift of Swamiji (Maharajji - as we used to devotedly address him) to the world at large.If the fellow sadhaks leave the shelter of sarcasm and become really serious in understanding the subject, I - with the help of Mira Dasji, Rajendraji Bohra and many other sadhaks (which I know are many) who have "really" studied the books of Swamiji - can take the lead in explaining this subject in 7/8 one page postings - maximum 10 ! But the condition is that there should be serious environment for understanding. There should be no sarcasm, no irrelevant questions, no funny arguments, no personal remarks, no hidden taunts, etc at least during these deliberations. I would love to attend to the counter queries of all the sadhaks provided they reflect a real desire to understand the topic, their observations genuinely point out to practical difficulties which they encounter in implementing the processes involved, the laws, principles and teachings of Swamiji. They must ask questions, that would encourage me and other contributors but without any personal sarcasm or giving titles like "siddha" etc. The sadhaks must for this purpose try to read the postings by positioning themselves into equanimity / impartial zone.. They must try to feel themselves separate from their mind and must not show any disrespect to Swamiji.If Gita Talk Moderator permits me to do that, I shall first give the principles involved, then processes and different ways suggested by Swamiji (acceptance is one of the many - On this Discipline alone Swamiji must have given a dozen different methods) and then conclude. Nothing - except the translation and the presentation and of course compilation from his various books, discourses etc - shall be from my personal side. I am too small a sadhak to give views of my own on such serious matters. But I am definitely a ssdhak. All will be Swamiji - As it is ! Mistakes may or rather will ake place in my role but I will stop further if any dis-respect is hown towards the theory and practice involved in the subject or arcastical remarks are made just as a fun by any one.PranaamJai Shree KrishnaVyas N B-------------------------------Question: How does one who is not able to immediately feel the ord's presence rise to that level? What is the path of attaining hat some individuals have without effort, and how is it that they ave this? many thanks, Mahalaksmi Dasi---My personal view is that this high level question can truly be nswered only by some one who is 'Siddha'. We as Sadhaks, can only e considered as blind leading a blind.Notwithstanding what I have said above, I can only attempt to answer he questi

May 12, 2009

Shree Hari Ram RamNEW POSTINGHari OmPratapji ! Your

observation is understandable. You are right when you say that "action"

belongs to Prakruti. But you are Purusha. "Action" does not belong to

you. Moreover there is no part of you belonging to Prakruti. " Mam eva"

(Mine only) - We are part of God ONLY. And God is beyond Prakruti.

Clear?Now come to mandatoryness "action" . If you just mould

your thought pattern to believe that "Nasato Vidyate Bhavo" ( Unreal,

inert, doesn't exist) , you will understand that "action" means

"doership" only. This very distinction of "sat existing" and "asat not

existing" needs to be grasped/accepted by sadhaks with surgical

precision and clarity. When you accept this firmly, Gita will start

looking newer and newer to you. When you accept this- the disnctions of

the type say "money" and "attitude towards money" will not arise at

all. Thus, by being "non doer" also "actionlessness" is

achieved.But that "non doer ness" should not be forced/planned/ thought

of. It should be "sahaj" (automatic) ; else you will not fall into "na

kinchidapi chintayet" ( You shall not think for anything, even

slightly) ! When you go deeper into

teachings of Gitaji, you will find that "actionlessness" necessarily

implies "disconnection with inert (nature) " . Because the very

characteristics of nature is "action". Hence "desirelessness" is

considered to be "silence" (inaction)- "inner silence" as pointed out

by Miraji Dass. Therefore, I would urge you, to always keep

this fact (Nasato Vidyate Bhavah) in focus as a sadhak. That will have

very positive impact on sadhana, knowledge of Scriptures and grasping

of subtle points of Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj. Never stick to any

thought as an "obsession". Never feel your way is the only way- Never !

Also "Equanimity" is "actionlessness" ! Can these things be grasped if

you give "satta" (recognition) and "mahatta" (respect/importance) to

inert ? No ! Hence "Nasato Vidyate Bhavo"Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B ------I now find that Narinderji Bhandari

also has similar difficulties. Many many others should be having

similar difficulties. May be that even Vasudev Sathyanarainji ! Such

sadhaks are at the core very serious and " quite pure by antahkarana" .

But erroneously they reconcile to the fact that: God Realisation is a

lengthy process !

dear Vyas jee,

narinder 's Guru used to say to him.................................. " Be aware of your own feelings, your own self .You can never know the other . Neither can you ' know' him,nor bring about any transformation in the other,until you become enlightened yourself ; and when that happens, you start seeing the other in a new light. The Light of Love.

"You can see the other's point of view with love ...and it is with Love that is Krishna,that

the other is able to move out of the eclipsing factor in his own

self. All is between Krishna and the Individual .All between the Self

and the self.You do not come into it ,narinder ! "

In our interaction,dear Vyas jee,narinder has found no dichotomy. We seem to be uttering the

same Truths in different words .Believe me,narinder has no ' difficulties'.

His expression may falter in communication .......... but difficulties

of understanding ,he seems to be quite quite free from.He is

aware,though,that he has yet to move into Abidance of Truth becoming

his conduct in action............................. and,it is for that, he seeks HIS Grace .

In

spiritual seeking, levels become redundent ...for

narinder,.............. he cannot judge, nor has a wish to do so..

Narinder finds Vyas jee,Sathyanarain jee,Mike jee,Partap jee,

Naganarayan jee,Shashikala jee, Meera je, Sadhna jee,Sushil jain jee

...................... and many more Sadhaks pursuing their individual

Sadhna with deep sincerity and in the great spirit of understanding .

narinder shares his ' small' light with them .............. the

conclusions are their own . It is between each one and Krishna.

Thank you for your desire for narinder's welfare and progress in the spiritual field.

AUM

With deep respect,

narinder bhandariPRIOR POSTINGHari OmThe biggest obstacle in Karan Nirapeksha Sadhan is a human's habit of relying on mind/intellect. It is my experience that one finds it very difficult to "accept" that he is NOT mind. We have become too attached and habitual of identifying ourselves with mind.A lot of discussion took place in the past on the subject. In fact, our Mike Keenor also took time to digest the same. But then, as we kept on insisting on the same, and as Mike is himself a very serious sadhak, I think he grasped the same, later on. I invite him to share his thoughts on the subject.His views shall indeed be very relevant and very beneficial to our Brethren because I now find that Narinderji Bhandari also has similar difficulties. Many many others should be having similar difficulties. May be that even Vasudev Sathyanarainji ! Such sadhaks are at the core very serious and " quite pure by antahkarana" . But erroneously they reconcile to the fact that: God Realisation is a lengthy process ! As they think, so becomes the process !!Basically, the existence of mind is for misery. ( i. e. productive of sorrow) ! The destruction of mind is for happiness. Leading the reality of the mind to decay, let one bring on the destruction of the mind. Know the mind as "existing", which is supported by happiness and sorrow and very still only on the cognition , " I am". It is the longing of the tree of worldly existence at budding time.{ Legend has it that the Asoka tree longs for the kicks of young ladies and the Bakula for the sprinkling of mouthfuls of liquor at budding time just as pregnant women have peculiar longings during pregnancy periods. When the tree of worldly existence brings forth the diverse objects, it is the mind which arises first, which, in turn, generates the world}They consider his mind as "lost or destroyed" whom states of happiness and misery, misfortune, pride, dullness and jubilation do not lead to difference in nature/outlook.Thus in my notes to sadhaks , I insisted for EQUANIMITY. Nothing "destroys" ( in fact neutralises) the mind as decisively as does equanimity. Equanimity does not root out "noble virtues" out of you. There is spontaneous expression of "Daivi Sampada" ( BG 16:1/3) in a liberated soul on account of good Vaasana-s . But these do not bind the mind to worldly existence.Such a mind is ever free.Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B--------------Namaste, Dear Ones!I want to clarify my own understanding with respect to Vyasji's post below."Sadhaks should note that by "action" you cannot get Paramatma. It is a law. Whatever be the "action" that you may do ! Hence "actionlessness" is MANDATORY. Once you "accept" this fact, Gita will start looking new to you. Try it."As I understand, no one can remain without actions, actions belong to nature(body-mind), says Gita too! What is meant is that "doership" is optional, actions are not!Being doesn't require a "personal doer" to BE, and yet all "actors" and "actions" needed for Divine Play takes place on the Grand Stage of Being(SELF-Existence-Absolute)!Thus, "actionlessness" is actions without being such a personal "doer".Namaskar........Pratap Bhatt--Hari OmSadhaks should note that by "action" you cannot get Paramatma. It is a law. Whatever be the "action" that you may do ! Hence "actionlessness" is MANDATORY. Once you "accept" this fact, Gita will start looking new to you. Try it.Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B-Shree HariRam RamSwamiji says - Where our senses and intellect do not reach is Inner Silence. Inner Silence is beyond the intellect. Decisions are made by the intellect. Where there is no mind, senses or intellect is karan nirpeksh (without dependence of instruments). The essence is without instrument (karan rahit). There is nothing to be done there. No means are required to reach the essence - it is without instruments. This essence is Inner Silence free of instruments (karan nirpeksh). It is what IS. It is the foundation of everything - the root. Meera Das, Ram Ram----narinder is beholden to Naarad N Maharshi jee for all the love contained in his words of advice ........................ whenever narinder reads Swami Ramsukhdas jee's words, the mind goes into a fast ....... and, there is Joy in narinder's heart, ............. that invariably happens because the words of a Realised Sage flow from the Innate Silence of His being ! .......... Blessed are the sadhakas, whose Minds bow in reverence at the feet of the Saints and the Sages .......... Nanak says this Bowing is the Way................. AUM narinder----------------------Shree Hari RAm RamNamaskar Ramchandraji... Welcome back ! Thank you for your beautiful submissions in Hindi over the past couple of months... particularly the poetry on Swamiji. Unfortunately we have no one right now who can translate such beautiful works... However we will certainly keep and translate in future... From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram RamPRIOR POSTINGAh, sadhaks........................ are any more words needed ................. ????????????? the words of Swami Ramsukhdas here are adequate to lead anyone into his own Being ..... ever free from any idea or dependence on the Other ! Is this not the Truth that the Swami himself is blessing us here with ! ? To renounce - no instrument is needed. It is done by the "Self" only. It is an easy and better path - "karan nirpeksh saadhan". ..............................................................AH ! Jai Jai Krishna .................. if , however the self finds inadequacy in these words ............... is unable to renounce the sense of Agency ( Doing )...............no need to worry ! ........ let the self follow the longer route of Yoga ................ Perhaps, Patanjali's Ashtang Yoga could be most appropriate , with the shalokas of the Lord's Song Celestial touching your Mind and Heart ! Step by Step By Step.................. into the realisation that you were indeed never the DOER ! And then.............. on realisation ................ One just laughs ! ... Laughter Happens ! AUM sweetest words ever ! ( .........below ).................. ! and , perhaps , amongst the fewest ! .......... for yet greater Joy, read the Swami's complete message ........... ................................................. " To renounce - no instrument is needed. It is done by the "Self" only. It is an easy and better path - 'karannirpeksh saadhan'............................."" .................................................................. ah !! a... h... u.... m ..................aum !!AUM narinder:Shree Hari:Ram RamSUMMARY : Whatever saadhan is done by the Self is "karan nirpeksh." There is no dependence on anything (instrument) or anyone. It is totally independent. The Real cannot be realised by the assistance of the unreal - it is realised by disconnection with the unreal. So separate your Self from the Unreal and you will realise the Self.For disconnection with Unreal and acceptance of the Real you do not need the assistance of any outside agency and results (success) will be quick. This is a very good discipline, free of risks "karan nirpeksh saadhan".Saadhan By The SelfWe have been discussing the topic of 'with and without the assistance of instruments' (karan saapeksh and karan nirpeksh). What you do and can do with your Self is karan nirpeksh (without the assistance of instruments) . For example your acceptance that God is mine, your belief in God, your decision not to harm or hurt anyone, decision not to lie, etc. These can all be done without the assistance of any instrument (body, person, place, etc.). You are totally independent to do these things. To attain God also you are totally independent. There is no dependence on anything or anyone.Being dependent on instruments there are chances of one falling down from his path of practice. The one who is not dependent on instruments cannot fall down. Not dependent on instruments is "independent saadhan" (Karan Nirpeksh) and being dependent on instruments is dependent saadhan (Karan Saapeksh). God realisation is not dependent on any instrument. It is done by the Self. It happens when you leave the dependence of all instruments. It cannot happen before.There are two methods of saadhan - (i) by doing and (ii) by not doing. There is no effort required in renunciation (not doing) of things what should not be done e.g. 'I will not hurt anyone', 'I will not lie', 'I will not abuse anyone', 'I' will not criticise anyone' - no capability is required, no effort is required.Renouncing is easier than doing. You get instant and endless peace (Gita 12:12). You have spoilt your habit - that is why it seems difficult. It is easy. It is tougher to lie than to tell the truth. You have to learn to lie, there is nothing to learn to tell the truth.Does it take a child any effort to go to his mother's lap? We are the children of God. We can easily go back to Him. We have accepted the things that have been given to us as ours and have forgotten the one who has given them to us. Only God is ours. The more neutral you are to the world the easier it is. You get sorrows only because of your acceptance of things that are not yours (Body, World) as yours and not accepting what is yours as yours (God).You hear these things in satsang - it is not for hearing only. It is for applying in your life. These are very helpful things for your salvation. People who do satsang must have the inner sentiments of renouncing the evil. To renounce - no instrument is needed. It is done by the "Self" only. It is an easy and better path - "karannirpeksh saadhan".Summary of Discourse by Swami Ramsukhdasji on June 16th, 1998 at 5 a.mRam Ram---PRIOR POSTINGHari OmThis refers to learned observations of Pratapji Bhatt on thesubject. I fully agree with him as well as Naga Narainji thatultimately it is Vedanta teachings which have to be the decidingfactors. Here the beautiful example given by Mike Keenor of thetwo birds in fact straight away comes from our Upanishads (Vedanta)only. I am sure we all are unanimous on one front that the essenceof all Vedas is in Upanishads, and essence of all Upanishads is inGitaji.. With this background I address your observations.Any science, in order to understand a subject, breaks the subjectmatter into parts. Vedanta and Gitaji also, breaks the variouscomponents of body, soul, world etc into parts. You will appreciatethat Gitaji defines/classifies Para and Apara Prakriti, Jeeva, Puresoul, mind, intellect, ego, body, Paramatma, world, Nature etc. intobasically two parts. Sentient and inert. Chetan and Jad. Sat andAsat. Not only Gita but entire Upanishads and Vedas also do so. Refer Gita'sfundamental principle " NASATO VIDYATE BHAVO , NAABHAVOVIDYATE SATAH' (Gita 2:16). There is no existence of Asat ( unreal). There isno absence of Sat( Real). Now all Vedas, Upanishads, Gita include Pure soul /Paramatma as Sat, Jeevatma in two parts - one part of Sat , another part of Asatdue to forming an affinity with Asat. Half this, half that say. That is Ego. InEgo when you remove ASAT part, you have broken the affinity with theworld/matter/nature/body. Only God or Self is remains. The intellect, mind, bodyfunctioning, actions, karmas all changeautomatically. It is a settled principle as per Vedanta thatIntellect, Mind, Chitta form part of "Subtle body". Ego is "causalbody" and remaining body like hand, eye, legs etc are part of "grossbody". (We should admire the precision with which our Scriptureshave broken the body into various segments). These threebodies in Upanishads have been called - "KOSHAS " . The nearest tothe Soul is Ego which, resides in CAUSAL BODY. Another name ofcausal body given in Upanishads is " AGYAANMAYA KOSHA' (IgnoranceZone). In ego as stated earlier Jeeva is sitting forming an affinitywith the matter. Hence ignorance lies not in mind but in Jeeva.Jeeva dispels the ignorance by breaking affinity with the world. MEAND MINE both reside in Ego . Likings and dislikings reside in Ego.How can "mineness" reside in mind? It resides in Jeeva not in mind.Jeeva is DOER. Not the mind. Jeeva suffers, the continuous cycle ofbirth and death. Jeeva goes to hell, heaven, etc. Not the mind orintellect or eyes, or ears. They are consigned to the flames themoment Jeeva leaves the body. The same mind stops functioning. Sameeyes stop seeing. It proves that the very basis of mind, intellectetc is Jeeva (Self). Hence the difference between Jeevaand Jagat is obvious. It is precisely therefore in Vedanta, so muchimportance has been given to CONSCIENCE (Viveka) ï¿½ whichDISCRIMINATES. We must discriminate. We cant reach anywhere if wedon't discriminate mind with self, sat and asat, jad( inert) andChetan ( sentient). When all Vedas do that, Upanishads do that,Gita does that, what is the problem in our doing that?Once it is clear that next to Soul is Ego - causal body. Ego controls Subtlebody and subtle body controls gross body ï¿½ then this concept put forwardbecomes easy to follow.The problem is that we don't classify. We have become too accustomedto identify ourselves with asat / with mind. Anything will come inmind only. Where else it can go in this body ? Even God Realisationwill come in mind only. So what? That does not make a machine, aninert tool, mind that important. If the KARTA (Doer) changes, theactions/thoughts automatically change - it is a law. I need notexplain it in detail to you. You know that. If we look at our directexperiences, it will get established. It is our direct experiencethat if Intellect rejects anything, the mind leaves that thought.Direct experience. So mind is not independent - it gets proven. Itacts under control of intellect. It cannot be DOER. Only doersuffers - it is a law !As per VEDANTA, the KARTA has to be INDEPENDENT ALWAYS. Is mindindependent? Does not mind work under commands of Intellect? Theyare inert and tools. They change automatically - I REPEATAUTOMATICALLY - when KARTA changes. Now, Pratapji, tell me where isthe need of running after the mind, training it, refining it, etc.The Karan Nirapeksha Saadhans, like Acceptance, Surrender, Devotion,Prem, Karma Yoga, Bhakti Yoga, Jnana Yoga - they attack and addressthe KARTA, the Jeevatma straight away. Once Jeeva understands, andchanges his mine ness (Which so far was with the world) ,everything changes automatically.Kindly in the interest of all sadhaks ponder over what I have statedabove and let them know your views on the subject. You cando so.Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B--------------------------------Priya SadhaksTulsidasji Maharaj told that bhajan can be done by mind only. Where? Which Doha?Dalmiaji Pls clarify .RamchandraWe are not here to agree or disagree to any specific point of view.We are here to assist each other in our path to God realisation.As far as I am concerned, I can only say that the starting point ofthis journey is the desire to realise God. The duration of thejourney will depend on the intensity of that desire.Basically as per my understanding, Gitaji has shown three paths (Ido not want to go into the merit of this statement). These areGyan Yog (Disicpline of Knowledge); Karma Yog (Discipline of Selfless Service);Bhakti Yog (Discipline of Devotion and Love)These paths are all leading to the same goal. None of these pathscan be said to be incomplete. The only difference is that thesepaths are meant for different people based on their individualnature. All are allowed to choose their own path based on what theythink suits them and see how they are progressing.I do not want people to spend their time on my observations made(not questions raised) in my earlier postings. The simple reason isthat their path seems to be different from the one chosen by me andI do not have any intention in deviating from that path as much asthey are not interested in deviating from their's. I must apologiseto Shri Ramchandra for not obliging him by answering his questions.Once again, my Salutations to all who showered their mercy on me. Ihope they will continue to do so in future as well.A.H.DalmiaRe: Reply to new question from Mahalaksmi DasiJai Shri Krishna,Mahalakshmi Dasi may please note that Krishna confirms in Gita 10:22that amongst sense organs I am mind ï¿½ "Indriyanaam Manaschasmi".Desire is in Jeeva only, soul is desireless. The pure soul becomesJeeva because of the assumed affinity with the body, world etc. Themoment Jeeva leaves this assumed affinity with the body, world etc.it becomes pure soul, which is part of the Paramaatma.Mahalakshmi Dasi has beautifully touched upon the difference betweenpurified desire and material desire. The desires for perishableworldly things (arising due to the assumed affinity with the bodyand world) are known as material desires. They are binding and yieldfruits. However, the purified desires are like roasted seeds ï¿½ whichdo not have any binding power and do not yield any fruits.Narayan NarayanRajendra J Bohra--------------------------Shree Hari-Regarding Vaysji answers Q 1-----Q 10 in general not specific. Aconstant them is the mind is a medium/ mirror/ machine etc.Reasonable arguments have been put forward. (I am thinking aloud hereas it were). Now several things come to mind, first one is that mindappears to be a universal, no mind can be different it simply reflectsthe intellect, ( a computer can serve thousands of users, or manypeople can look at the same mirror, but see different images depending wherethey stand).Now if the mind is a tool of the intellect, as stated. Then, as isknown, certain spiritual souls develop as Vaysji noted, occultpowers. And these powers perceived by that person, one presumes in the mind, butit does not seem to be a function of the intellect. In fact one can see withoutintellectual input,(seeing is not looking).Open eyed mediators can see, but take no involvement. (I think thelatest Sadhaka post is touching on my last thoughts).I hope you understand these are thoughts not arguments, conundrums inmy mind, (do I own that mind hmmm?)I would deeply appreciate any wise council on my conundrums.With Respect and Divine Love,Mike.(Mike Keenor)===========================================================PREVIOUS POSTINGHari OmHere is verse by verse answers to Dalmiaji's queries. He raisedspecific questions against each verse, hence answers are with eachverse only. Later on conclusions will be given.Q 1 - 2:38 . WHERE DO WE FEEL 'SUKH AND DUKH' ?.Ans :- Already explained. Refer Gita 13:20. Self (Jeeva)experiences pleasures and pains. Mind is just a mirror / tool forreflection or medium to self here. Equanimity enters the mind. Godis Equanimous. Self is by very nature Equanimous.Q 2 -3:7 /.3 :37 . WHERE DOES 'KAMANA' RESIDE ?. Ans:- Kaamna (Desire) resides in Karta ï¿½ doer- not in mind. ( In Ego-WhereKarta with affinity of Prakrati resides in Jeeva Form- likings anddislikings reside in Ego) . Karta suffers the results in the form ofpleasures and pains. Kaamna ( desire) can not reside in machinecalled mind. Refer Gita 13:20. Only doer suffers? Is not it?Q 3 - 4: 42 WHERE DOES 'AGAYN' RESIDE.? Ans. Ignorance ( Agyaan)resides in causal body- Ego- where Jeeva is sitting forming anaffinity with Nature. Mind is simply reflecting as a medium. Jeevais knowledgeable or ignorant. Mind can neither be knowledgeable orignorant. It is a machine like a computer or air craft. Mind's jobis to think in accordance with instructions of Intellect. Does notcomputer process commands? Is computer ignorant or knowledgeable?Q 4- 6: 36. EVEN GOD DECLARES THAT THE PERSON WHO DOES NOT HAVECONTROL OVER HIS MIND, WILL NOT BE ABLE TO ACHIEVE ME. ? Ans: Thisverse is in relation to Karan Saapeksha Saadhan viz Dhyaan Yogaonly. We are discussing at present Karan Nirapeksha sadhan. Ifrequired I will observe on it separately. Not now.Q 5 ï¿½ 8 : 5. AT THE TIME OF DEATH HE WHO REMEMBERS ME ?.WHERE DO WEREMEMBER FROM ?. IT IS THE MIND !. Ans: Remembrance at the time ofdeath is possible only when you take Karan Nirapeksha sadhan ofacceptance. Refer also advice of Krishna to Arjuna in this regard in8:7- continuous remembering . Karta (self) will cause entry ofremembrance into mind. Mind is only a medium here ! More discussionswill be there on this when 9:34, and 12:2/8 are discussed. Why inevery mind at the time of death , the remembrance of God does notcome ? Mind is same everywhere. Here Jeeva is of essence. Not theinnocent machine called Mind. According to you who remembers God atthe last moment ? Jeeva or Mind? If mind remembers then who will getliberated?Q 6- 8:14 "ANANYA CHETA SATATAM". GOD ORDERS TO REMEMBER HIM WITHNO DISTRACTIONS. WHERE DO WE REMEMBER FROM ?. IT IS THE MIND !. Ans -Same as above. Mind is only a medium here. A mirror. I will discussthis separately in detail with 9:34 etcQ 7- 13 :21 "PURUSHAH PRAKRITISTHO HI". WE GET ATTACHED TO THE WORLDBY BEING EXTROVERT. THIS NEEDS TO BE CURBED BY MAKING MINDINTROVERT. Ans Both Extrovert and Introvert are positioning of Mind.By being introvert, that PURUSHA which is referred here, doesnotcease to be out of Prakriti. Do you agree that Purusha and Prakritiare separate ? Yes- you must. Then how change of position of mindchanges the position of Purusha ? Purusha ( Jeevatma) has formedaffinity with matter. Jeevatma has to withdraw. Upon withdrawal byPurusha only change in mind by way of Equanimity, by becomingSattva/ Being etc will arise. Many times you in practical lifebecome introvert. Does at that time Purusha ceases to be connectedwith matter?Q 8- 13 :28 "SAMAM PASHYANHI SARVATRA". WE NEED TO SEE GOD IN ALLBEINGS. THIS IS NOT BY OUR EYES BUT BY OUR MIND. Ans- Yeah. But mindthere only reflects the equanimity which has arisen due to change inJeeva. Mind is only a mirror here.Q 9- 14 :25 " MAM CHA YO AVYABHICHRENA". ONE WHO DOES MY UNDILUTEDBHAKTI... HERE AGAIN MIND COMES. Ans- Mind as a mirror shall comeinto picture even when Paramatma Realisation enters the Jeeva oreven when you get liberation with body. Refer my earlier postingBhakti is done by SELF not by mind. NOTE THIS THING CATEGORICALLYTHAT BHAKTI AND SERVICE CAN NEVER BE DONE BY MIND. It is always doneby Self. BHAKTA AND SADHAK ARE ALWAYS UNMANIFEST- BHAAV SHARIRAS. Iwill take up this subject in more detail. All of your new postingissues will get clarified.Whether it is Ramcharitmanas issue, orKapil Bhagwaan reference or Chaitnya Mahaprabhu sayings, or MiraBaai, or Bhooribaiji.THEY ALL ARE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT. Everythingwhich you have written is right, except your conclusions that Bhajanhappens from mind. Wrong. Show me a single reference by them wherethey have said Bhajan is done by mind. Then what SELF does, thenLiberation also should be of body/mind only ï¿½ where does thenJivatma comes int picture? Wrong. Also the last para of yourposting. It is so unnecessary Anyway, I am duty bound to reply.Q 10- 15:5 "NIRMAAN MOHA JIT SANGA DOSHA". WHERE DOES "MAAN ANDMOHA" RESIDE. IT IS THE MIND. Moha ( attachment) resides in Ego-where Jeeva resides ( Para Prakrati and Apara prakrati jointlyreside). Respect is a desire of Jeeva. It again lies in Jeeva only.Q 11- 16 :21 "TRIVDHAM NARAKSEDAM". "KAMA, KRODHA ETC MUST BEOVERCOME. AGAIN THIS IS THE FUNCTION OF MIND. Ans Kaam ( desire)resides in Jeeva. Refer earlier discussion on the subject. Anger isoutcome of non fulfilment of desire. It gives pains to Jeeva. Mindis only a medium/mirror of transferring pain to Jeeva who desired.Balance in next edition.You may ask counter questions with reference to above discussions,however.Jai Shree Krishna.Vyas N BDear SadhaksNamaste. My queries are to A H Dalmia.I hope you are aware that Jeeva is part of Paramatma and has assumedaffinity with the nature as per Holy Gitaji. Self is unchangeableand ONLY part of Paramatma. Prakriti is ever changeable and bothSelf and God are beyond Nature.Mind is part of Prakriti as per Holy Gitaji.Self is part ofParamatma as per Holy Gitaji. I need not give Gita verse nos , oncein your previous posting you have referred so many verses of HolyGitaji.You have quoted from writings of Goswami Tulsidasji Maharaj ,Revered Shri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, stating what these respectableSaints told. But you have concluded that "Bhajan is done by Mind".Please prove that the aforesaid Great Saints said so and if theysaid so , please prove by giving reference of their writings, Dohano and verse no of their books.If they have not said so and if it is only your personal feeling/conclusion then please tell the sadhaks that it is so, and givereasons as to how "doership" vests in mind , which as per HolyGitaji is a "karan" (tool) and is a "jad" ( inert). You must nowprove it.You also referred to Holy and Most respectable Devotees ofParamatma - Goswami Tulsidasji Maharaj and Mira Baai and concludedwith their reference that:-A. Acceptance is made by mind andB Mamata ( mineness) is residing in mindand not in Jeevatma (Chhijjad granthi) which some other sadhaks havestated..Please prove by giving specific references of their works/bhajans asto where they so confirmed. If they have not confirmed anywhere andyour mind has so presumed then tell us that it is so and let usknow as to what kind of mind a child has (or you had when you wereinfant) when, the child accepts some one as his mother and as hisfather.Please also state as to how the mind can make any "mamata" with Godor with Self, when it is part of ever changing Nature and God isbeyond Nature as per Gitaji.Please elaborate as to what you want to communicate when youreferred Respected Bhagwan Shri Kapildevji stating that " Liberationand Bondage" are in mind. Please state Liberation or Bondage ofwhom? Of the mind? Or of some one else? Pls state reasons as to whythen the mind so adored by you should not be thrown into a dust bin,without making any refinements in it - lock , stock and barrel - bythe Jeevatma who governs the ego/intellect/mind/body etc !Please also give reasons as to why mind, intellect, ego, body etcshould not be ignored by Jivaatma (Self) as suggested by somesaadhaks and as to why it is necessary to refine them, as stated inPatanjali Yoga Darshana (definition of Yoga) but not in HolyGitaji. Please state what is more important according to you andwhy? Please state how both Scriptures according to you can be livedwith without any contradictions.You have referred Param Shraddheya Swamiji Shri RamsukhdasjiMaharaj . He stated many times in my personal presence also - HeyNaath Main Apko Bhooloon Nahin. (O Lord , Let me not forget you ). Iagree. But please state from where and from which reference( out ofhis discourses and books) you have drawn the conclusion that thisprayer / this PUKAAR/ this request is from the" mind" and not fromJeevatma as some other Sadhaks have stated.I am awaiting your responses eagerly.With sincere respects and regards to you and all fellow sadhaksRamchandra-Shree Hari-I have been following this debate with great interest, the nature ofthe mind and Self and so on.Now if one meditates and takes the time to still the mind to a pointwhere what lies beneath all the clatter can be sensed. (This is nottheory it can be achieved I am sure by any who is so predisposed tothat way of things). What can happen, (now I attempt to unifyexperience to expression), a sense of separation, also unspeakablelove, also an understanding that all is really perfect, the imperfectis a product of illusion.The Impostor Mind, cannot accept this insight and rationality setsin, "that's not me, thats not me...",But the cat is out of the bag, one has had a glimpse of the truth, itbecomes part of ones awareness.At times Ego will try and dominate, but always that knowing is withone.I think I see a drift in this understanding appearing in this debate,it is pretty involved and not easy to follow. (Thats my weakness).A final point, the classic symbol of two birds, (the one I am mostfamiliar with), drinking at the fountain , one drinks the other lookson , certainly makes sense to me at this point of this life.With Respect and Divine Love,Mike(Mike Keenor)-Jai Shri Krishna,A sadhak must first decide/resolve that he can get liberated !WHY HE CAN GET LIBERATED ?Because he is in fact liberated only ! !He should believe that he can realise Paramatma !WHY HE CAN REALISE PARAMATMA?Because in fact Paramatma is already received by him, ever connectedwith him. He is part of Paramatma only.Sadhak should believe that he can not do anything through body forSELF. Only SELF can help SELF. SELF can not " act" at all !THEN WHAT CAN SELF DO ?SELF can not " DO " but it can "BECOME" - Nishkaam(desireless),Nirmam ( mamata less / minenessless), Nirmal (faultless/vicefree/stainless), Nirahankaar (egoless) .WHY YOU CAN BECOME DESIRELESS/EGOLESS/MINENESSLESS/ FAULTLESS ?Because by form he is always desireless, egoless, mamataless, andfaultless ! He is part of Paramatma. He has developed desires /ego / mineness / faults because of affinity with world only.We can by SELF do Bhajan (devotion) and give Service to the world atlarge (Bhakti Yoga and Karma Yoga respectively)HOW CAN WE DO SERVICE WITHOUT USING BODY ?By becoming " nirmal" / faultfree/ vicefree. That is real service tothe world. That body can not do , only Self can become so ! !HOW CAN YOU DO BHAJAN WITHOUT USING BODY ?By Loving Paramatma. That does not require body. Love ( Prem ) onlySelf can do, because self is part of God. Love arises out ofmineness When self accepts mineness with God, Love is automatic..You can not realise God by mind, intellect, ego and body. Had thatbeen possible then any machine also could have caught Paramatma !Sadhak gets Paramatma by renouncing the shelter of body, mind,intellect etc. We don't need body to realise Paramatma. Only SELF isneeded, WILLING SELF ! !.Narayana NarayanaRajendra Bohra-NEW QUESTION:In regard to posting below, my humble request that Vyasaji give thechapter and number for the following quote (as I am studying thismaterial as attentively as my constitution allows...)"That's why Krsna stated even in Gita that among sense organs I amthe mind".My second question...in regard to posting by Rajendra Bohra, he hasmentioned that in fact, desire is not in the mind, it is in thejeeva. This has always been my understanding, that desire issympton of the soul. So, is this forum suggesting that the soulshould have no desire? If so, why are we desiring to understandthis topic? Please explain purified desire in regard to materialdesire.Sincerely, Mahalaksmi Dasi-Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!This is in reference to Dalmiaji's observations on Mind andsubsequent responses.It appears to me that we may be saying the same thing with differentmeanings of such words as mind, Jeevatma(Jeeva), Self, etc., due tointerpretations of scriptures we may have read or heard ourselves orfrom Saints.Vedanta's teaching, as I understand it, is only for training "mind"or preparing it to receive Truth, whereas Self is ever present andshining, needing nothing. Here mind has to be itself ignorance(or inignorance) for Vedanta to say it. One can only address theignorance. Thus, in this context, Jeevatma and mind can be said asone and the same.Look at our experience: we don't really experience "mind", nor dowe experience "body" in themselves, rather, we only experiencethoughts and sensations in our being conscious-aware of them. Thatis the only real experience! However, In order to communicate, weconceptualize "thoughts" as "mind" and "sensations" as "body".Please see this closely. If one sees this experientially, it is thebiggest proof for oneself of mind's reality.Wrong identity-ignorance as Jeeva can exist only as thoughts (ormind), which is nothing but a sense of separation called "me", andsubsequent ignorance of doership (karta), enjoyership (bhokta) etcetc. So there are not two, mind and thoughts or body and sensations!In fact all are just one: Ignorance of Self manifesting as thoughtsor mind or Jeeva or "limitations-me"! Use of words create their ownindepenent realities which have no experiential reality,nevertheless, have good communication tools. In this sense, mind canbe called tool as Vyasji says.Now ever present Self(Atman) is where thoughts, sense of "me" appearas It is the ultimate ground of all that appear! Brahman in movementis Maya principle; thoughts are ripples on the fundamental unity ofall Beings in Brahman(Upanishadas)! Thus there is One reality, Selfappearing in ignorance as Jeevahood-ego, experienced as mind-stuff(antahkarana-tool). In the entire cosmo, there are no separaterealities. When this insight is contemplated upon hearing from thelips of one's Guru(Upanishadas), Self is realized as the only ONETruth, God and Devotion is natural pouring of heart!While on this pursuit of Knowledge(Gyan), one should acknowledge theunity of such terms from the beginning(it is the Shrawana, Manana,Nididhyasana practice) and not wait to realize it as an end ofSadhana because it propagates the wrong notions! Of course theseterms are, not only good communication tools, but the only tools todescribe the undescribable.So we may be right in saying what we say in the context.Difficulties arise only in communications which is why suchplatforms as this are useful.Thank you all Sadhakas.....Namaskaras....Pratap(Pratap Bhatt)====================================================================Jai Shree Krishna,Desires do not reside in mind. They come in mind -"manogataan" -Gita2:55. Mind is a tool. There can not be any desire in a tool. Isthere any desire in the car to run? Is there any desire in pen towrite? If we presume that desires are existing in mind, then thesorrow arising due to non fulfillment of desire also should be tomind. But sorrow is to the Self (embodied soul - Jeeva). (Gita 13:20)In fact desires are in "Karta", the Jeeva (embodied soul, not thepure Self, the embodied self) who experiences the pains thereof.Mind is not the "doer", hence not the experiencer. Mind is notindependent, it works under intellect. It is a law that Karta (doer)is always independent. Intellect is also not "doer", it also is atool only. Pure Self (Chetan) is also not "doer". Had pure Self beendoer, it would never have been possible to remove "doership". (Gita13:31- na karoti na lipyate - pure self neither does nor getsentangled).The activities happen in nature as a natural phenomena. One whoassumes doership only reaps pleasures / pains. Just as car runs butwe say " I am going/ travelling" - because we have attachedourselves with car. Do you fly or the aircraft flies?In fact in neither the inert ( mind, intellect, body) thereis "doership" (kartitva) and "enjoyer/suffership" ( bhoktritva) northey are in pure Self, Chetan, Atma . They exist in JeevatmaJeevatma - pure self when it exercises its power ofacceptance/affinity with nature becomes Jeevatma. He assumespositioning in Nature, he "assumes" himself to be doer, inspite ofhis not being the "doer"- hence he enjoys/suffers , not an innocentmachine called mind. He is ignorant not mind.Not the pure self. Butthe assumed self. Jeeva liberates not the mind. Mind is asat(unreal). Not the pure self-it is ever liberated.Entire center of attraction therefore is Jeevatma - not inert toolslike mind , not Pure Chetan Atma - but Jeevatma.Hence we have address this Jeevatma only not a machine called mind !In Jeeva, there are two parts. One - pure Self, Atma, exclusive partof God. Two - Prakriti / Nature with which he assumes affinity. Theycombinedly remain and hence the term "Jeeva". All scripturesconcentrate on this creature called Jeeva not innocent machinecalled mind.Narayan NarayanRajendra J Bohra-Hari OmThank you Dalmiaji for really good observations on mind.You have indeed raised very relevant questions which needclarification in a manner as easy as Maharajji told and it may take2/3 postings. Please do not hesitate to raise any questions orcounter questions - it is the very purpose of this esteemed forum.Mind in fact is a unique creation of nature. Nothing can match it.That's why even Krishna stated in Gita that among sense organs I ammind.You have drawn attention to 2:38, 3:7, 3:37, 4:42, 6:36, 8:5, 8:14,9:34, 18:65, 12:2, 12:8, 13:28,14:25, 15:5 and 16:21.- to concludethat Mind is an important Sadhana tool and the teachings of Swamijibecome really easy only when we tackle / control this typicalmachine called Mind.First of all let me clarify that in the body the mind is the mainorgan, everything has to pass through mind, be it conscience orsmriti, or experience or even Paramatma Realisation or reflection oracceptance or devotion or Prem (Love) or Equanimity or even SELF inits pure form etc etc. In many others and rather in each of theabove at least the mind is merely a reflector / a mirror and thatdoes not mean mind has in fact acted. These things enter the mindinvoluntarily and shine "through" the mind.Even Ego, Intellect, Chitta though different from mind can reflectonly "through" mind. Mind is an inert tool, a machine.There are 2 things. One - what mind does, thinking. Two - whatarises automatically in mind. In latter mind is mere reflector.There is no doership there. It has not done anything there exceptreflecting as a mirror. Where else Samata (equanimity) can shineexcept in mind? Where can experience of pain and pleasure getreflected except in mind? It is Jeeva (embodied soul) in factwho "experiences" pleasure and pain, not mind. Jeeva is ignorant notmind. Mind is inert - it cannot experience. Mind is atool /organ /machine. Responsible and real experiencer is Karta(doer) - Jeevatma - who presumes "I am doer" The Doer experiencesthe pains or pleasures. (Gita 13:20) not the mind. For everythingwhich reflects in Mind, the action really is not of mind. What isreal role/action of mind in that thing which it merely reflects as amirror-except reflecting as mirror?.. Where is action of water whenSun reflects there? It is inert, a tool , a machine !Does the mind cease to operate in God realised souls ? No, themirror role continues, SELF there shines in its pure form.. Manyverses which you have referred merely indicate the mirror role ofmind and hence become irrelevant from mind control point of view.In fact the enlightened mind is called "Being" or "Sattva". The mindis born again , "Being" is not born again. The knowers of theTruth , who are free from the mind,are constantly established in aneven position.They move about sportively with the ease of theirstation or state that is Pure Being. ( Yoga Vaashishtha).Did Swamiji not have mind after realisation ? Yes he had, but notmind , Sattva/Being - same mind !!But there are many verses referred by you which indeed must beaddressed fully like 12:8, 12:2, 9:34 etc.I shall deal verse by verse in next posting.Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B-I would like to supplement on the subject on what I wrote yesterdayas follows:Goswami Tulasidas ji Maharaj firmly says"Baru Mathe Ghrit Hoi, Sikta te Baru Tel, Binu Hari Bhajan na BhavTariye, Yah Siddhant Apail"Last three words are very significant and worthy of deeperthought. "This Cardinal Principle is unchangeable". Further it mustbe noted that 'Bhajan' has to happen from Mind.Shri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu equally firmly says"Harernamaive Harernamaive Harernamaive Kevalam, Kalau NastyevaNastyeva Nastyeva Gati Anyatha".Normally in any Kavya any repetition is considered a major defect.But in this place Mahaprabhu has used the same word not two butthree times to impress how important this is. It need not berepeated that 'Harernam' is to be done by Mind.When Goswamiji says "Tulasi Mamta Ram Se" (as said by Rajendrabelow), we need to appreciate where does that Mamata reside. It isin the Mind.Meera Bai used to chant "Mere To Girdhar Gopal, Doosro Na Koi".Where does one accept any relationship. It is the Mind.Shri Kapil Bhagwan says"Chetah Khalvasya Bandhaya Muktaye Chatmano Matam, Guneshu SaktamBandhaya Ratam Va Punsi Muktaye".The main reason for 'Bandhan and Moksha' is the mind. If it isattached to the world, it results in rebirth and if it starts lovingGod it results in Moksha. Hence the importance of Mind"Yoga" means to get attached to God. The very definition of Yogais "Chitta Vritti Nirodhah". Again the attack is on Mind.In Gyan Yoga, we do not start with "Aham Brahmosmi". This is not thefirst but the last step. Here we start from"Pragyanam Brahma". After meditating on this principle, we move onto "Ayam Atma Brahma". Having reached that stage, we areadvised "Tat Twam Asi". Again the sadhak goes back to his meditationand realises this truth. Then and then only he returns to say "AhamBrahmosmi". So we see that we do not start by saying I am the God.When we meditate on "Pragyanam Brahma", we are infact training theMind.Swamiji Maharaj used to repeat virtually in all his pravachans "HeyNath Main Apko Na Bhulun". Where does remembering and forgettingtake place. It is the Mind.Even in our scriptures we find the words "Gyanottar Bhakti". Wenever find the words "Bhaktottar Gyan". This means that even when weRealise through the Gyan Yog, there is still something left and thatis Bhakti. Bhakti in real terms means 'Prem' (Love for God). Lovecan happen only in the heart and the Adhyatmik Heart is Mind.I remember, once I had the chance to meet a great saintcalled 'Bhoori Bai'. She used to reside in Natha Dwara. I requestedher to guide me in the path of Realisation. I asked her "what shoudI do to achieve that goal". To my surprise she said "kucch nahinkarna". I had full faith in her words. Hence there was no way, Icould take it lightly. I meditated on this answer in the night andthe next morning I again went to her lotus feet and requested her toelaborate as to what she meant. She said "in any case what do youdo". This meant clearly that do what you do but without 'KartritvaAbhiman'. This then leads us to the fact that we are not the body.This needs to take roots in our Mind. And for that we need to trainour Mind.In the end I would only like to re-iterate that it is easy to justread a scripture or hear a saint and give discourses. But it willbecome much more meaningful, if we spend time in translating thesame in our life and then see if we are speaking from the level of abeginner (Sadhak). Without that, there is all the possibility thatwe miss out on what the Sadhak really needs.A.H.Dalmia-My understanding is that there cannot be wrong in any wordswhosoever uttered in whatsoever manner. The very Bramhan makes everysyllable, every sound and every atom to their perfection as such. Inthat case, how can anything built by these basic building blocks canbe NOT perfect?!Also, however detailed one can express oneself, all the expressionsremain a tip of the iceberg, the experience beneath the expressionsremaining infinitely concealed. Thus, every expression in this worldhas its own legitimacy in terms of the experience that backs it up.Following is my opinion on finding wrong in somebody's utterances:1. Finding something wrong or objectionable in some body else'sutterances is utterly erroneous in itself since nobody can accesssomebody else's iceberg of experience and hence get disqualifiedautomatically.2. It is useless to find wrong and objectionable aspects insomebody's writings as it does not bring any new understanding ï¿½ onewho finds wrong is sticking to what he already "knows" ï¿½ retainingone's ignorance intact.3. It is dangerous to make an attempt to find errors in othersbecause the very attempt is to justify one's own errors and even toconceal the same.Therefore, if at all I can, I can put forward my views and opinionsfor others benefit (if any) in more detail on the subject inresponse to Vyasji's scholarly writings.My understanding is that The Upanishad prevails everywhere ineverything at all the times transcending all the barriers of spaceand time. If one does not see that, it is the students fault. Thenit is the student's responsibility to correct himeself. For that heneeds to equip himself within with Shraddhaa (the trishul of tapa,dama and karma) and receiving genuine help from the environment(vedas) such as the great virtual ashram we have with so many greatsouls pouring their genuine thoughts and experiences for everyone'sbenefits. I am so blessed to be one in this Homa (and Home!).I will make my best attempt to understand from Vyasji's writings formy benefit and express my views as I can.Respects.Naga Narayana.Namasthe everyone. Many devotees have responded this question andthis is my humble opinon for the question ""How does one who is notable to immediately feel the Lord's presence rise to that level?What is the path of attaining what some individuals have withouteffort, and how is it that they have this?"The simplest path i feel is: just see each and every beings as yourown and in each and every action that we do, do not have anyexpectation at all for the output (Gita 3rd chapter, karma yoga) andsurrender that output (whatever it maybe) to that Supreme.Regards,Bharathi====================================================================PREVIOUS POSTINGJai Shree KrishnaSwamiji's last speech - translated by Vyasji for benefits of Sadhaks-in fact is the most important write up which humanity for aeons willcherish.Minimum words-infinite result!He in fact in this speech took the essence of every. major Yogadescribed in Gita including Dhyaan Yoga(silence/desirelessness justbefore realisation- Gita 6:24/25 ), Karma Yoga(Duty/equanimity),Bhakti Yoga ( Surrender) and Jnana Yoga (Nothing is mine,I don'tneed anything, I don't do anything)- to prove that in the end allyogas lead to same result !Step one can only be "acceptance" - TULSI MAMTA RAAM SE ! ( Minenesswith Paramatma only) . Mirabai Said- Mere to Girdhar Gopal, DoosaroNa Koi. (Only Paramatma is Mine, nobody else is mine).Swamiji in fact never contradicted any saying of any Scripture. Heproved every Scripture right!Here the process emanating out of Swamiji's last speech is aguaranteed process. It is guaranteed by God because it meets withalmost every concluding verse of Gitaji spoken by Lord Krishna withreference to God realisation- be it Verse2:38, 2:45, 2:48, 2:71 or18:66, 6:20, 6:24, 6:25, 6:3, 9:31, 12:12,18:66 and many manyothers .!It is guaranteed further by a remark of Lord Krishna to Arjuna inGitaji. He stated in in 9;31 - Kaunteya pratijanihi na me bhaktahpranshyati - O Arjuna, you take the vow that my devotee shall neverfall.( Or proved wrong)Why did Lord ask Arjuna to swear? Why He Himself did not swear/ takethe vow? Answer is that God can at any point of time, when it comesto His devotees, change/ back out from his "pratigyaa"(vow/promise/swearing)- He doesn't mind then being called as "Ranchhod" ( runner from war front) or " Chor" ( thief) or Vaaman (dwarf ), also. After all - Bhakta mere Mukut Mani ( My devotees arejewel of my crown). He in fact vowed before He became driver ofArjuna's Ratha (chariot) in Mahabharat War that " I shall not liftweapon in Mahabharata War" . But when his devotee , Bhisma Pitamah,also vowed that- I shall make Krishna lift weapon in the MahabharatWar- Krishna backed out from His vow, lifted the weapon and therebyensured that the vow of His devotee, Bhisma, prevailed - andnot His !!Here in this speech not one but at least three confirmed devotees ofLord Krishna are involved - Mira Baai, Swamiji and GoswamiTulsidasji Maharaj. (In fact many more) On the top of it Krishna'sdivine voice itself is standing authenticated in this speech ofSwamiji- in more than one ways..We need only to believe, to accept!Narayan NarayanRajendra J Bohra-------------------------------Shree Hari-I think Rajendraji understood the my point I made, (in my clumsy way)regarding GOD pointing a Sadhak to the easiest way to Realization, asVyasji pointed out there a many approaches.The mention of Japa, and also the deep silent approach, along withB.G. Chapter 6 as an offering to Paul.It appears intellect can see Paramatma in all, even by deepthought it can be reasoned, but it seems to actually Know, (torealize) is entirely a different thing.Equanimity and Apathea describe the same state, (an expression usedby western mystics).I have been conservative, in my comments, (not so much my questions),I really desire not to offend. Vyasji has been attempting to draw mefrom my shell, to which I have retreated. Having always been a deepthinker on things spiritual, and drawn to meditation over manyyears. (I had no particular fixed belief). I thank you for extendingyourself and making it possible to share my thoguhts. With Respectand Divine Love.Mike(Mike Keenor)-Pranams. Thanks for circulating Swamiji's last speech, which is verprofound and highl motivating.G.Vaidanathan-Stilling of Mind (Manah) with help of Buddhi (intellect) in removalof impurity of thoughts is Yoga. But this practice of mind controlis not easy and yet easily achievable. Manah (mind) is like gaswhich after seeing something new, it gets desire of it. If it doesnot see / know, desires do not come. Thus, let mind be free to seeand know but not stick to any of these, and so that it can returneasily through a hole to inner self.K G Misra-I greatly appreciate the explanations given by Shri Vyasji by takingso much pain. I also agree with what he says.I wish to draw attention of sadhaks to the following where myunderstanding and experience is that mind is of great importance inonce sadhana:Chapter 2 Verse 38 "Sukh dukhe same kritva". Where do we feel 'Sukhand Dukh'.Chapter 3 Verse 7 "Yastvindriyani manasa". Chapter 3 Verse 37 "Kamaaisha krodh aisha". Where does 'Kamana' reside.Chapter 4 Verse 42 "Tasmat agyan sambhutam" Where does 'Agayn'reside.Chapter 6 Verse 36 "Asayyatatmana yogo dushprap'. Even God declaresthat the person who does not have control over his mind, will not beable to achieve me.Chapter 8 Verse 5 "Anta kale cha mameva smaran". At the time ofdeath he who remembers me...Where do we remember from. It is themind.Chapter 8 Verse 14 "Ananya cheta satatam". God orders to rememberhim with no distractions. Where do we remember from. It is the mind.Chapter 9 Verse 34 "Manmana bhava". God orders that we should givehim our mind. Please note that this is the only Verse that isrepeated in the whole of Gitaji (Repeated in Chapter 18 Verse 65).This shows how much importance God has given to this.Chapter 12 Verse 2 "Mayyaveshya mano ye mam". God orders toconcentrate the mind (Ekagra) in Him.Chapter 12 Verse 8 "Mayyeva mana adhatsva". God orders to keep mindattached to Him.Chapter 13 Verse 21 "Purushah prakritistho hi". We get attached tothe world by being extrovert. This needs to be curbed by making mindintrovert.Chapter 13 Verse 28 "Samam pashyanhi sarvatra". We need to see Godin all beings. This is not by our eyes but by our mind.Chapter 14 Verse 25 "..... Mam cha yo avyabhichrena". One who doesmy undiluted Bhakti... Here again mind comes.Chapter 15 Verse 5 "Nirmaan moha jit sanga dosha". Where does "Maanand Moha" reside. It is the mind.Chapter 16 Verse 21 "trivdham naraksedam". "Kama, krodha etc must beovercome. Again this is the function of mind.Finally in Gitaji (Chapter 7 Verse 19) God has expressed that aftermany rebirths, when finally the sadhak realises me, such sadhaks arerare.I would also like to draw attention of Sadhaks to Shrimad Bhagwat.In Skada 3 Chapter 25 Verses 15 to 20, Kapil Bhagwan tells hismother how to achieve God. Here again he asserts 'Chetah khalasyabandhaya" mind is the main reason for 'Bandhan and Moksha'.Begging for Shri Vyasji's forgiveness, I have tried to pick upverses at random from almost all Chapters of Gitaji to impress thatMIND in perhaps the most important aspect in SADHANA.Now let me clarify why I agree with Shri Vyasji. Once we have beenable to establish firmly in our "Self" that I am neither the Bodynor the Mind nor the Intellect, then everything that Shri Vyasji hassaid falls in place. But to reach that stage, we have to cross theother barriers created by the mind.Also, when God himself declares "Sa Mahatma sudurlabhah", how can wesay that he can be achieved instantly. I do accept that Maharajjiused to frequently say "Bhagwan mil jayen abhi abhi". However, Idid not get an answer.Once again begging for forgiveness from all whom I may have offendedby differing with them.A.H.Dalmia-Hari OmWho can say exactly as to how the last stage of God Realisation iscrossed ? Only a God Realised Mahatma ! Who else ? On 30th June,2005, barely 3 days before his death, Swamiji delivered his lastspeech at Swaragashram, Rishikesh ï¿½. and what a speech it was !Coming from a "God Realised" Mahatma, the speech is direct, crisp,brief and totally focussed. His body had become too weak and hencehe used minimum words. But each & every word was an ocean.Presently to Dear Sadhaks, the "Last Speech of the Genius ï¿½ SwamijiShri Ramsukhdasji Maharaj "."There is one thing which is very good, very simple and very easy.And that is ï¿½ Do not keep any desires. Neither of God, nor of Soul,nor of World, nor of Liberation, nor of Kalyaan ï¿½ don't keep anydesires and become silent. Become peaceful. Reason being that Godis existing everywhere in a peaceful, silent mode. He is presenteverywhere automatically and naturally. If no desires remain inyou, no expectations remain in you ï¿½ you get God immediately, youget fulfillment, you get completeness ï¿½ immediately.It is the experience of each one of us, that some desires getfulfilled and some desires do not get fulfilled. It is not a law orrule that all of our desires will be fulfilled. To fulfill desiresis not in our control. But the relinquishment (tyaag) of thedesires is completely under our control. When there is no wish ordesires existing, you shall be automatically and naturallypositioned in God. You will get "God Realisation" instantly.Nothing to desire, nothing to do, nowhere to go, nowhere to come,no practice. That is all. In this itself all things are over.The "Bondage" to the world arose only because we desired. Themoment we leave desires, we get positioned into God ï¿½ automatically & naturally.Remain impartial in every work. Neither like nor dislike doing anywork."TULSI MAMTA RAM SO; SAMATA SAB SANSAR ! RAAG NA ROSH NA DOSHDUKH; DAAS BHAYE BHAV PAAR !! (Dohavali ï¿½ 94)"(Says Goswami Tulsidas ï¿½ By "mineness" only with God and byonly "Equanimity" with the world; with no attachment (liking),aversion (disliking), fault finding and sorrow, the surrendered(Daas) crosses the ocean of worldly existence).There is "activity" and "matter". Both "matter" and "activity" arecombinedly called "Nature" (Prakrati). By disconnecting bothwith "matter" and "activity", get yourself dependent upon one God.Surrender yourself to the God ï¿½. And that is all is needed. Thenyou are naturally & automatically positioned into God.A woman lost her child in the dream. She became very anxious,worried and restless. When she got up from the sleep, she found herchild peacefully sleeping beside her, meaning thereby that whereveryou are, the God is completely present there itself. Wherever youare, become silent there itself.Q (By a Listener) : Sir, you told yesterday that let there be nodesire. Now which one is more beneficial ï¿½ to be desireless or tobecome silent ?Swamiji ï¿½ Accept that "I am of the God, God is mine, I am not of anybody else and no one else is mine". To become "desireless" and tobecome "silent" ï¿½ both things are one and the same only. You don'thave to desire for anything ï¿½ neither of worldly "bhogs", nor ofLiberation, nor of Divine Love (Prem), nor of devotion (Bhakti) norof anything else.Q (By a Listener) : I have not to desire for anything. But if Ihave to work, then ?Swamiji : Do your work whole heartedly. Do your work 24 hours aday ï¿½ but do not keep any desires within you. Understand this thingproperly. Serve others, remove pains / sorrows of others but do notdesire anything in return. Do service to others and become silentin the end. If you are in employment, take your salary, but do notdesire for it.The essence is that wherever you are, the God is there itself. Ifyou do not have any desires then your positioning shall be in God.When everything is God only ï¿½ then we have to desire for what ? Wehave desire for the world, therefore our positioning is in theworld. When there is no desire, we remain positioned in the God."In the next Article I shall elaborate on this further.Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B---Jai Shree Krishna,Important thing to note between these two sadhans viz KaranNirapeksha Sadhan and Karan Sapeksha Sadhan is that ultimately theGod Realisation comes to you from only Nirapeksha Sadhan ,irrespective of your doing saadhna (striving) through SaapekshaSaadhans. Reason is that you can not realise Him by the aid ofnature, or matter- IT IS A LAW. . You can realise Him only byrenouncing the nature.For example, in Dhyaan Yoga ( Meditation) ï¿½ which is a KaranSapeksha Sadhan - due to long time practice ( abhyaas) and Vairagya( dispassion) and by again and again forcing the mind to turntowards God i.e. to get attuned with God, the mind becomestranquil/disinterested/quite. Because on one hand, there is nodesire of world left in mind, and on other hand being inert, itcannot reach/receive/grasp Paramatma. Mind then has no choice but toget "upraam" , disinterested and become "equanimous". The momentmind becomes so , saadhak gets disconnected from mind/matter/natureand realises the God by SELF (Gita 6:20) .But , for example in Karma Yoga- which is Karan Nirapeksha Sadhan -, a Sadhak right from beginning assumes relationship with theworld only for serving the world , for giving , not taking anythingfrom world -. He becomes desireless very fast ï¿½ by doing duty only.As soon as he becomes desireless , he gets Equanimity. The momentmind becomes Equanimous , saadhak gets disconnected from matterand realises God by SELFSimilarly in Bhakti Yoga ï¿½ a Sadhak right from beginning assumesrelationship with only God and nothing else- and thus he becomesdesireless even faster- by just seeing everything happening as God'sWill . He then is given Equanimity by God Himself ! God startstaking all of his responsibilities, the moment He accepts hisrelationship with God and renounces his relationship with world.That is how the simple also becomes easy !.Narayan NarayanRajendra J Bohra> ==============================================================Shree HariRam RamDear Sadhaks,At this time, there will be no new subjects / questions introduceduntil after 23rd August, to allow sadhaks time to review the entirestring of deliberations on this very important spiritualdiscipline. Sadhaks are only taking questions / doubts / issues /inquiry / clarification / disagreement etc. on the material coveredon this subject.In your posting, please include first the statement made by theSadhak "As is" in these deliberations and below it, please includeyour comments regarding your doubts, disagreement, additionalquestions you have etc. pertaining to what the sadhak has stated. Ifthere are disagreement, please state the source of scripture andverse reference that supports your theory / understanding etc.Please kindly stay away from generalized statements, opinions, andfeelings.This will be an invaluable use of every sadhak's time, in thisspiritual journey. Also recommended reading are the links below onthe same subject in past daily sadhak messages. Questions / issuesrelated to anything in these daily messages will also be taken atthis time.sadhaka/message/1349sadhaka/message/1375sadhaka/message/1416sadhaka/message/1434sadhaka/message/1670sadhaka/message/1721sadhaka/message/1934sadhaka/message/2030sadhaka/message/1236We look forward to your sincere study of the material.From Gita Talk ModeratorsRam RamQuestion: How does one who is not able to immediately feel theLord's presence rise to that level? What is the path of attainingwhat some individuals have without effort, and how is it that theyhave this? many thanks, Mahalaksmi Dasi---New PostingHari OmThere are four main differences between Karan Saapeksha (Disciplines aided byinner faculties - Mind/Body / Intellect etc) and Karan NirapekshaMethods ofParamatma Realisation.1. Assistance of matter, (body,senses,mind etc) has to be taken inSapekshaMethod, while no such assistance is necessary , in the NirapekshaMethod,instead the assumed relationship with matter, is to be sundered orbroken up.2 There is, creation of new state of mind in the Sapeksha Method,but inNirapeksha Method there is realisation after breach with all statesof mind.3 In Sapeksha Methods, there may be an acquisition of occult powers(siddhis),but in Nirapeksha Methods there is direct and intuitive experienceof Reality,on severance of relationship with matter.4 God Realisation in the Sapeksha Method is NEVER iMMEDIATE , but inNirapekshaMethod God Realisation is IMMEDIATE , as soon as a breach withmatter iscomplete, either by surrendering to Him, or on being established inthe Self.The Basis of Sapeksha Method is - If the mind gets tuned to God, itis alright.But if it is not so tuned, then nothing happens.The Basis of Nirapeksha Method is- Whether or not,mind is attuned toGod,it doesnot matter; but one's SELF should be attached to God. Here there isdirectrelationship of Self with God,with a total breach of ties, with themindintellect complex. Here the prime factors are conscience ( viveka)and believing(bhava) !Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B--------------------------------New Posting-Shree Hari-I had actually written a response to Pauls comment, but I slept onit, I wanted to focus on Mahalaksmi Dasi comments/query and I am gladI did, I will insert my new thoughts in brackets.A Benediction, (who was a mystic), made a wise comment, "you cannotdefeat the Ego, with the Ego".He also said, "simple is not always easy".Thus if you have a burning desire for the Beloved, believe that Hethat is at the Alter of your heart, will guide you. The easiest wayfor you will be truly revealed. (When the student is ready themaster will arrive).[ It is clear to me that you truly love theLord, he is you Beloved, you are reaching out to him with all yourdevotions, if you cannot find him in your Heart, you are notlooking , He is there He cannot not be there, dwell on this!]I mentioned with regards to Devotion B.G. 12.Now with regards to Meditation, I read chapter 6 in The Gita. To meit was the most wonderful expression on the subject that I have everread. Somethings touch ones soul, it did mine. I have seen Japamentioned by Sadhaks in various threads, I am familiar with thepractice, albeit the silent form, I knew it as the way of themantra. The power of it is that it brings the mind into a singlefocus, the sacred mantra. Thus meaning surrender to the mantra,and finally surrender the mantra.That final surrender of course is to GOD.Resorting to metaphors. Imagine one is at sea at night in a terriblestorm, the boat seems to be tearing apart under the strain of thestorm, your heart is full of fear, but you keep your eye on the lighthouse, because by means of its guidance lies your refuge, you libertyfrom the chaos. The single point is so important when one goes theway of meditation. (I say this with sincerity). Refer B.G. 6. 11-12.I hasten to add still deep silence may be achievable by some, withoutany recourse to anything else, such souls are truly blessed.A final point, if one tries to understand something, not in a logicalway, but, (this is hard for me to explain), but by means of theDivine, in very deep silence, then ones sense of reality can change.One has to take responsibility for this newly acquired reality, neverto be abandoned. The recent comments by brother Vyas were almostbrutal in their simplicity, how absolutely true they are.With Respect and Divine Love,Mike(Mike Keenor)-Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!Very insightful discussions taken place on the question:'How does one who is not able to immediately feel the Lord'spresence rise tothat level' as lead by Vyasji.I may echo them in words of my understanding.The one approach that has helped me is by coming in contact withTruth of"oneself" by direct experience bypassing the senses and mind and isconsistentwith Shankara's Aparokshanubhuti! This is to be done with lot ofdevotion andnot just intellectual exercise out of curiosity. It will make onefeel Lord'spresence immediately, provided one longs for Truth, same as Lord andis ready togive up his life if needed.How can one bypass mind, right?Burn with the desire "help me Lord to find out the mystery of "me"and "You, Iam not going to rest until I do". This desire is impersonal becauseif it issincere, it is coming from Lord Himself who wants to be discoveredthrough theapparant sadhaka! Lord Himself has identified with limitations ofbody-mindorganism of Sadhaka playing hide and seek leela, and yet remainingto bediscovered spontaneously! Impersonal desires get fulfilled!Personal desires indicate craving for objects as they come fromassumedseparation from Lord.This desire will take one inward beyond mind because mind's answerabout God'spresence will not be found satisfactory anymore. Until now God wasan image inthe mind based on everything one is told by others, read inscriptures and/orheard from saints. This image is seen as consisting of organisedthoughtsarising in Awareness due to sustained inward pull toward what liesbeyond. WhenAwareness is aware of Itself, there is a glimpse of Blissfulnesswithout anyobjectivity limting it. This is one's true nature or Lord's presencewithin,Pure Subjectivity(not Subject)!Once the Sadhak tastes it, every object of the world will lead himto thePresence within. Mind will cooperate and drown in Devotion!Sadhaka will not remain individual anymore, rather one withEverything arisingin pure Unconditioned, UndividedAwareness(Consciousness-Existence-Absolute-Brahman).Sadhana continues on its own till what seems to take time only frommind's pointof view, to merger in Absolute!Namaskaras..Pratap===================================================================Hari OmThanks to all Sadhaks for patient observation of my, RajendrajiBohra's and Meera Dassji's summarisations regarding The DisciplineOf Actionlessness (Karan Nirapeksha Saadhan). Now it is time foropen and frank discussions, question and answer sessions. Allsadhaks may now come up with their specific queries. Queriesreceived so far are predominantly insisting for "practice" andslowness , step by stepness involved in Paramatma Realisation andstress that Purification of Antahkarana (Mind, Intellect, Ego etc.)is very essential. Refer even fresh queries of Krishna Gopal,Golianjaneyulu, and even Paul Pooniah. It is understandable. We allare accustomed of achieving results in this world only by actions,practice, etc , therefore we all believe that by only karmas oractions even Paramatma Realisation will take place. That however isnot a correct assumption.For those Sadhaks who have generally observed like Paul Pooniah (Irequest Mike also to respond to him) the answer is that In fact Godis everywhere and therefore He is here also. We don't have to goanywhere to search for Him. He is at all times, therefore he is nowalso. We don't have to wait for a future time.He is in everybody, so He is in us also So there is no need to makeany efforts by us. He is the kindest..So we will not have to bedejected. He belongs to everybody therefore He is ours also.There will be automatic Love (Prem) for Him. He is all powerfu ,therefore we need not be fearful. He is unique/second to none,therefore we don't have to recognise Him / describe Him.Now what is needed ? He is present, Self is present ï¿½ where is thedelay? Our desire is needed ! Our correct acceptance is needed !Our willingness is needed ! Our looking at Him is needed ! Our mereglance at His presence right inside us is needed ! (Did not Mikeobserve ï¿½ go within ? ) That is all is needed ! In accepting ï¿½ O GodI am yours ï¿½ what do we need ? Any way kindly keep reading variouspostings and I am sure we will change our view point. Keep observingalso. Tell me with the above narration, can there be a simpler thingto do ? (Did not Mike also say so ? ) .For those Sadhaks who have supported their arguments by referingGita 6:25 and Patanjali Yoga Darshana and have insisted fordispassion / step by step slow process / need for purification ofAntahkarana /need for quietening the mind etc,- let me state that inGita AT LEAST 25 different methods of Paramatma Realisation havebeen described and explained by Lord Krishna for the benefit ofHumanity at large. Each method has got its own characteristics, ownspecific process, own requirement of time, own way of achieving, ownindividuality ! ! ! Verse 6:25 is not applicable to all the methodsof Realisation - it is applicable to only Dhyaan Yoga. (Meditation).The statement in a response/query that - "There is no other way ofQuietening of Mind" is neither correct nor of any importance toSelf ( Embodied Soul) who can at any point out of time can accept orrevise his existing acceptance/assumption to not only - MERE TOGIRDHAR GOPAL but also to DOOSARO NA KOI ! ! ! That is a simple anddirect power of YOU - the SELF- the embodied JEEVA ! It turns -indeed- the world upside down ! ! !How does it matter if mind is quite or fickle like a monkey ? ( Whatdo you say Mike ? )These AT LEAST 25 or more methods are broadly grouped "power wise"into three Yogas,- Jnana Yoga, Bhakti Yoga and Karma Yoga. Undereach of these three yogas there are many "independent individualmethods". Similarly from style/process wise, these ParamatmaRealisation methods have been grouped under two broad parts. Thosemethods which require aid of body/mind etc. are called "KaranSapeksha" Methods. Those methods which do not require any aid frombody/mind/intellect etc. instead require only SELF are called "KaranNirapeksha" Method. Under each of these two broad categories againthere are many "independent individual methods" We are at themoment discussing one or two of such Karan Nirapeksha Methods. Whilereference of Gita 6 : 24 is pursuant to one of the Karan SapekshaMethod viz Dhyaan Yoga (Meditation). Need for Purification ofAntahkarana, quietening of Mind , step by step slow process etc isneeded in that particular Sapeksha Saadhans AND NOT IN in NirapekshaSaadhans. In Nirapeksha sadhans the time required is much muchlesser. If you have intense desire, then time requiredis "KSHIPRAM" ï¿½ less than even one second ! In Dhyaan Yoga referredby Krishna Gopalji etc the time required may be even ages and ages !There you can become " Yoga Bhrashta" (fallen from effort) also.SUCH IS NOT THE CASE IN SAADHAN WHICH IS UNDER DISCUSSION. Hencereference of 6 : 24 here is wholly irrelevant.We shall elaborately discuss this subject in more detail in the nextposting . For the time being Saadhaks may note that in Gitajivarious Karan Sapeksha Sadhans - AT LEAST 16 or more differentmethods ï¿½ have in described in verses ï¿½ 4:25 to 30 ( 13 methods inall), 4:34, 6:10 to 28 ( Dhyaan Yoga), 8: 8 to 13, 15 : 11 etc. ,Similarly Karan Nirapeksha Saadhans - at least 10 or more differentmethods - have been described in Gitaji verses - 2:48, 2:52, 2:55,2;71, 3:17, 4:38, 5:12, 6:5, 8:14, 9: 26 to 28, 9 :30/31, 9:34,12:6/7, 12 ;8,, 12:9 to 12 :12 ( 4 methods), 18:62, 18:66 and 18 :73.There is a lot of difference therefore in time, process,independence, requirements in each of the aforesaid AT LEAST 25methods of Paramatma Realisation. Hence no individual one verse isalways applicable to all the methods.Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B==================================================================Hari Om3 articles have been posted on this Discipline of Actionlessness.Conclusion easily is that SELF is at the top of pyramid. It isconnected with the world - entire world through assumed affinity withEgo.SELF by way of acceptance / resolution generates the commands to Ego.From Ego onwards there is regime of world/nature only. Ego toIntellect to Mind to Sense Organs ( and to Organs of action) tosubject matters of sense organs.Body is a machine (inert) only- an automatic machine. This body isgoverned by Ego.Ego is governed by SELF.When SELF changes by change in acceptance - Ego ( Aham ) changes andentire operation of body changes.Since body is an automatic machine - everything changes INSTANTLY themoment you (SELF) change acceptance / assumption.How simple ! How practical ! !What time does it take to change assumption/acceptance from " I am ofthe world , world is mine, God also mine " to " Only God is mine,nothing else is mine" ?Not even a second - instant!With that your life changes!Jai Shree Krishna.Vyas N B-------------------------------Jai Shri KrishnaThe conclusion of this Discipline is that Self is connected with theworld through Ego which governs the body.When Self connects with Ego in fact Self is connecting with entireBody and with entire world/ nature.If you cut connection of Self with Ego - then disconnection withworld takesplace-in its entirety.Upon "disconnection with world" - Self in its pure form only remainsbehind along with Paramatma ( God )..Remain Impartial / Equi-poised / Equanimous in your work always.Neither like (Raag) nor dislike (Dvesha) anything. That is possibleonly when you do your "Duty" .Duty your body automatically does if you ( self) "become" of God andrenounce assumed affinity with world.When you do so you become "Ego-less"ï¿½ because Ego merely consistsof "me"ï¿½ & "mine" on one hand as representative of "SELF" and"likings" & "dislikings" on other hand as representative of theworld.That is all "Ego" is made of.So far your " Me" is Body-which is part of world. "Mine" isBody /Ego /World /car / house/ wife etc .Liking and Dislikings arefor worldly things.Hence as of today everything in your ego is World only.Change it now.Accept "Me" to be the SELF-part of God ; and "Mine" to be only theGod and and nobody/nothing elseMERE TO GIRDHAR GOPAL, DOOSARO NA KOIOnly God is mine, nothing else is mine.So "Me" is God. "Mine" is God."Likings & Dislikings" then get replaced by "Equanimity"ï¿½-automatically - with the above acceptance.God is always positioned in Equanimity. Another name of Equanimityis God.So in your Ego only God is there !Where is individual "Ego" now ? Gone for ever !Where is "I" now ? Who are you now ?I am God - Aham Brahmasmi !What a gift Gitaji and Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj has given to theworld ! !Narayan NarayanRajendra J BohraTHE MAGIC OPERATION OF DISCIPLINE OF ACTIONLESSNESSWhen Lord Krishna stated in Gita 9:30/31 - "kshipram bhavatiDharamatma". -(meaning that one who has rightly resolved/accepted -he instantly(kshipram) becomes sinless/stainless and pious soul- a Saint)-the Lord in fact advocated the power of acceptance and Discipline ofActionlessness only.Here in fact Lord used these words of instantly becoming virtuouswith reference to" a most sinful among all the sinners" person!Instantly one becomes virtuous upon acceptance because basically weare part of Paramatma only- because we are basically stainless only.We become sinners only because of our affinity with the world, whichin fact is only a transitory period of life for sinner and all of us.As soon as we change our EGO and become of Paramatma , our affinitywith the world is wiped out. In case , we start hating sins andresolve/accept that we have to adore Paramatma only, we caninstantly become virtuous ( Dharamatma). In " EGO" where there isdesire for the world , there is inclination to Paramatma also.If this inclination to Him is strengthened - desire for the world iswiped out and God Realisation takes no time !Consider the following to understand as to how realisation takes notime.Once you change your acceptance/assumption from existing " I am ofthe World" to " I am of God, only God is mine, nothing else ismine" -which change of assumption can take place in an instant- your roleends then and there.THEN your body takes charge AUTOMATICALLY.You remain actionless throughout - after change in acceptance.Your body is an automatic machine like computer ( computer needs acommand only) Your body does not need SELF thereafter and it keepsdoing Karma suo motto strictly in accordance with your acceptance. Sofar the body was suo motto thinking about the world only because youhad assumed that " I am of the world" - so long as you don't changeyour assumption you always have problems of "not able toconcentrate" at the time of meditating/ naam japa etc.- Because ofworldly thoughts haunting your mind- arising suo motto andautomatically- uncontrollably ! !When you change your assumption to. " I am of God " your bodystarts functioning AUTOMATICALLY in strict accordance with yourchanged acceptance and suo motto starts doing Duty only and yourmind rapidly moves towards Equanimity- which in fact is yournatural state only. It stops taking interest in the world ,because "SELF" has changed and gets withdrawn from the world- hencemind also withdraws and becomes "equanimous" ! !Your intellect rapidly/ instantly stablises and your mind becomesthoughtfree very fast.Thus your role ends the moment you have correctlyassumed/resolved/accepted.It is precisely therefore Krishna said - " He should be considered aSaint for he has rightly resolved".This is the magic of actionlessness ! !Hari OmTHE MAGIC OF EQUANIMITY"Eqanimity" is an actionless process and it enters the mind of asadhak. The last write up explained how AUTOMATICALLY ANDEFFORTLESSLY it enters the mind upon acceptance. Here is a write upwhich will prove the automaticness, the rapidity and theactionlessness involved in Paramatma Realisation by Equanimity andnext write up will similarly prove "YOUR BEING WITH PARAMATMA "effortlessly by resorting to Equanimity. Readers are welcome toobserve reg authentication of process by Gitaji, and otherscriptures, reg rapidness (instantness)and reg actionlessnessinvolved in the process. Serious Sadhaks may also take print outs andread again and again till the concept sinks in their mind. Then askQuestions. The question and answer session will then take divineshape. The best way to read this summary of writings of Swamiji - isto put yourself into an Equaminous /impartial zone, without any biasfor whatever you have so far understood/learnt/believed. Read mypresentations as a challenge to your mental equipment. Then MrConscience will take over your mind and you will smoothly understandthe topic./actionlessness involved therein and easiness/quickness ofthe path. Then you will understand why Krishna used "KSHIPRAM" wordin Gita 9:31. Basis of this Aricle is Gita 2:71.Where does God reside ? The correct answer is ï¿½..in "Equanimity" ! We all want peace & happiness. We all areseeking peace & happiness for millions & millions of years. We arecoming & going, taking birth & dying in this world from timeimmemorial. We genuinely believe in Godï¿½. it is not that we do notbelieve in God at all. We are good people. But still we are nothappy. WHEN we are continuously walking on the path for millions & trillions of years THEN even if the path to God; to peace & happiness; to freedom is a very long path many of us would havereached the goal by now. At least we would have made some progresstowards our goal with reference to the distance to be covered in thepath. But it does not appear to us that we have made any progress.We are still fearful; tense; anxious; deficient, uncertain & struggling. We are running; running & running ï¿½ may be becausewe find others also doing the same. Why this scenario has arisen ?The simple reason is that path is not "straight". The pathis "round" . What progress can be made when you are running ona "round" path ? Where can you reach ? How then to make progress ?Simple answer is ï¿½ï¿½ "Rise above the circle (round)" ! Whatis "circular" ? The relativity/ absence of absolute / "duality" isroundness ! With every pleasure, pain is associated. Whatevercomes, goes. Whatever begins, ends. Whatever rises, sets. Everyhappiness; pleasure is relative & temporary. Hence you seekpermanent happiness & peaceï¿½ an absolute & not relative peace & happiness. So the circle is "dualities". How to rise abovethe "dualities" of pleasure & pain; health & disease; gloom & gaiety;profit & loss; praise & criticism; affluence & poverty; victory & defeat; birth & death, good & bad, right & wrong, fame & ill fameï¿½.. & so on ? Answer is "Equanimity" (Samata) !"Equanimity" consists of doing your all Karmas in an equanimousmanner. In order to do Karma with Equanimity you need to eliminateindividual likings (Raag) & dislikings (Dvesha) as the primemotivators of your Karmas. In other words the prime motivator orreason of your Karmas should not be "desire" but should beyour "duty". We have already explained in previous write up as to howIMMEDIATELY upon your ACCEPTANCE , the body starts doing DUTY onlyAUTOMATICALLY, EFFORTLESSLY.MAGICAL AND AUTOMATIC OPERATION OF EQUANIMITY"Only that person who is Nishkaam (desireless); Nirahankar (Egoless);Nispruha (fearless; carefree) and Nirmam (Mamataless) ï¿½ï¿½. getspermanent & divine peace & happiness" (Gita 2/71)ï¿½ WHEN you practice Equanimity THEN you eliminate the very rootcause of desires, the likings & dislikings (Raag & Dvesha).ï¿½ WHEN you relinquish Likings & Dislikings THEN youbecome "desireless" (Nishkaam).ï¿½ WHEN you become desireless THEN your Intellect stabilises.ï¿½ WHEN your Intellect stabilises THEN Mr. Conscience awakens in youto take charge. You acquire Discrimination. You fix the goal ï¿½.Freedom, Liberation, God Realisation ! From Conscience (Viveka)arises the sense of "Duty". From Conscience arises "Fearlessness".ï¿½ WHEN your Intellect stabilises THEN your Karmas start gettinggoverned by your "duty" and not by your desires.ï¿½ WHEN your Karmas are governed by "duty" THEN the "sense ofdoership" in you gets extinguished.ï¿½ WHEN the "sense of doership" in you gets extinguished and thereare no "likings or dislikings" THEN your Ego automatically getsextinguished because Ego consists only of likings and dislikings andsense of doership. You become Egoless (Nirahankar).ï¿½ WHEN you do your "duty " with no desires THEN youbecome "Nirmam". Your "mineness" is gone because when you do yourduty with no desires you are in fact indulged in "service". It is alaw that "service destroys mamata (mineness)".ï¿½ WHEN you do your Karmas as a part of duty without expectinganything in return THEN you become "fearless" (Nispruh).ï¿½ As a combined effect of all the above you do not have any of thefollowing:-* D esire "to get" something;* Desire to live* Fear of death* Tendency "to do" something.ï¿½ WHEN there is no Raag/Dvesha; no sense of doership & noorientation towards the result, THEN the Karma immediatelybecomes "Sattwik" Karma as per Gita.ï¿½ WHEN your Karma is "Sattwik" and when you do not do a Karma with asight on the results THEN your "Karma" becomes "Akarma" within themeaning of Gita. Your Karmas then cease to give you results.ï¿½ WHEN there are no results THEN the "CHAIN" or the Bondage ofaction & reaction of Karma & Result gets broken and you are free.This is Liberation/Jeevan Mukti/Kalyan/Salvation/Freedom/Moksha.Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B------------------------------Hari OmIn the last Article I had explained the effortless and instantprocess of Acceptance , then automatic process of your doing yourduties, then automatic process of entering of Equanimity into yourmind and then automatic process of your getting Fearless, Egoless,Worryless and Mamataless. Hence you became eligible to invoke Gita2:71 - automatically _ JUST BY ACCEPTANCE ! IN "KSHIPRAM TIME" ! Nowthis write up makes you relaxed in the loving arms of your Daddy-Paramatma !DISCONNECTION / LIBERATIONYou are "connected" with this world through "Ego" only because "Ego"controls & gives command to Intellect in the form of Likings;Dislikings; self gratifying and desire driven Karmas (Buddhi).Intellect controls & gives commands to "Mind" (Mann). "Mind" controlssense organs (eyes, ear, skin, tongue, nose). Sense organs areengaged in their subject matters (Eyes to the form; ears to thesound ; tongue to the taste; skin to the touch; nose to the smelletc.) The world consists of such subjects matters; activitiestherein & people engaged therein. The "world" has nothing else.Now Ego controls your intellect. WHEN your Karmas are based on thebasis of your "duty" & not on the basis of your desires THEN Your"Intellect" has no choice but to get stabilised; to get fixed; to getfocussed to your goal ... Liberation; freedom from sorrow. YourIntellect gets free time because it is not engaged in transferringcommands of "Ego" to "Mind". It has nothing to "instruct" the Mindregarding "the world". The Intellect loses interest in the world.Your Mind is servant of your Intellect. WHEN Intellect has no commandreceived from "Ego"- (Ego gives command ) THEN it cannot provide anycommand to your mind. Your mind then loses interest in the senseorgans & the subject matters of sense organs. "Mind" then startsthinking in terms of "Gyaan" (knowledge); "Bhakti" (Devotion) & "Varaigya" (detachment). No body neither the Self; nor the Ego ;nor the Intellect nor the Mind remains interested in the worldlysituations/circumstances/happenings/positionings; in the worldlypeople; and in the worldly activities. They remain connected withthe world but in an "equanimous" manner i.e. physically but not byEgo, Mind & Intellect .... Only through "Duty".Once the disconnection with the world arises in your Mind as you areno more impacted by the dualities thrown by the world before you inthe form of pleasure & pain, happiness & sorrow, victory & defeat,fame & ill-fame, health & disease, praise & criticism, good andbad, right & wrong, birth & death etc.WHEN you are not impacted at all by the dualities. THEN you are saidto be Liberated !WITH YOUR DADDY"Ego" consists only of "Raag" & "Dvesha". It gets manifested in theform of "sense of doership" WHEN all three are gone THEN your "Ego"starts getting extinguished. WHEN the "Ego" is gone THEN the sense ofindividuality ("Jeevahood") is gone & "the connection" with the worldis gone. This Universe contains only 3 elements. Jeeva (You, thepure You); Jagat (the World) and Jagdish (the God). WHENJeeva "disconnects" with Jagat. THEN what remains behind is Jeeva & Jagdish. That is the end of the path. That is your goal. That isthe real purpose of getting human birth.It is exactly why the God has time and again in the Gita statedthat "I am equanimous", "I am equal to all creatures". When youpractice equanimity, you are in fact trying to become equal toGod. As you start realising and experiencing more & more that allthe things made by God are "equanimous" you become more & moreenthusiastic (take any example, Sun, Fire, Water, Air, and Earth -all are equal to all. Any one who touches fire, burns his fingerswhoever he may be. Any one who drinks water, quenches his thurstwhoever he may be)With your Intellect already stabilised, you start enjoying yourcompany with "equanimity" WHEN you are continuously indulged inequanimity THEN in fact you are continuously with your Father, theGod.It is then that "Shraddha", "Bhakti" & "Prem" in that order arise inyou because you start feeling clearly as to how your Daddy - God isalready sitting in the same "Equanimous" state and controlling theworld effortlessly through mother Nature. You start believing thatyou are part of God. You start seeking Him. You start admiringHim. You start glorifying Him. You start loving Him. You startunderstanding Him. You start singing his praises - so that you maybecome Him.Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B--------------------------------JaiShri Krishna,"Peace" means - to become "mentally and physically quite", not to doanythingWHEN we have relationship with an activityTHEN we have relationship with the World/NatureWHEN there is relationship with the worldTHEN there is unrest/lack of peace/sorrow/BondageWHEN connection with world is continuous and unrest, lack of peaceincreasesTHEN a velocity to do karmas develops in you to remove the unrest,get peace but again through world onlyThus a vicious circle forms. Your relationship with activity keepsstrenghthening.WHEN you act with a "nishkaam bhaav" (desireless motive)THEN velocity of doing karma in you starts getting eliminatedWHEN velocity is goneTHEN you get established in EquanimityWHEN you get established in EquanimityTHEN peace generates in youWHEN peace generates in youTHEN you have two options, to enjoy that peace or to renounce thatpeaceWHEN you renounce that peace (that is don't get impacted by thatpeace or don't enjoy (bhog) that peaceTHEN you realise Paramatma (Gita 6:3)So the process starts with nishkaam bhaav - which is effortless andactionless !!By "activity" in - equality arises. By "in-activity", Equanmityarises - without any efforts of any sort whatsoever.Once you are equanimous, you are as good as Paramatma. You remainseparate from the world having no mental connection. No desires.Only Duty. You are free, you are liberated, you are MAST (blissful).You then attain permanent bliss - self proven, automatic,activityless, prideless, egoless, PEACE .(Shaant Ras).Narayana NarayanaRajendra J BohraHari OmAs indicated by Lord Krishna to Arjuna in Gitaji 9:30/31 and asgreatly simplified by Swamiji Shri Ramsukhdasji, one can realiseParamatma instantly, at this very moment.The topic "Discipline of Actionlessness" undoubtedly is the gift ofSwamiji (Maharajji) to the world at large, however as indicatedearlier much background is needed for a deeper dive into thissubject. Mostly everything presented is from Swamiji's books /lectures. Let us get a flavor of this divine work by starting withcontemplating on some thoughts / insights on "Into a Peaceful Zone."INTO A PEACEFUL ZONE1. If we are quiet we are positioned in God. "Peace" is the causein realizing God (Gita 3/6). "Peace" comes to us by "disconnectionwith world". It is a law that every disconnection generates instantpeace, even if it is disconnection of waste from the body (Gita12/12).2. World is moving away from us continuously, without anyrest. "Momentum" never remains permanent. "Positioning" can remainpermanent. "Change" in world is dependent upon an "unchangeable"platform which is "Self". "Connection with world" is temporarywhereas, "Disconnection with world" is permanent. The ultimatespiritual discipline is ï¿½ "momentum-less; "Action-less"; "Peaceful.3. "Peace" is existing effortlessly and automatically. We only haveto "disconnect" with the element which generates unrest viz. "me"and "mineness" with the body & the world.4. In the element called "God" ï¿½ there is neither "action"nor "matter". "To do" is also an "actionNot to do" is also anaction. We don't have to either "do" or "not do". We don't have tobe concerned with "availability" or "absence" of any matter/worldlything. Simply "Inner Silence". There is no thought even of God inthe ultimate stage. "Na Kinchidapi chintayet" (Gita 6/25).5. To realise God, we have to leave "labour". We have toadopt "rest", quiteness. We have to accept peace. "To acceptPeace" means ï¿½ to experience our automatic, obvious, self-proven,effortless, natural positioning into Element called "God" or elementcalled "Self". "To experience" ï¿½ means we have to firmly believe itis so.6. "Self" has no capacity "to act". "Thinking" is an act of mind andnot of "Self". "Self" can only accept or reject, associate ordisassociate. Since in "Self" there is no "activity" ï¿½ thereforeonly "Self" realizes God.7. If we are "thinking (Chintan)", you are positioned in the worldbecause world is existing only in our thoughts. It is appearingas "existing" ï¿½ only because we pay respect to it. We like to seeit as "existing" ï¿½ because we are "existing" and we feel thatthe "connection" with world generates Peace and Happiness. Butthe world is constantly changing. It is "Asat" (unreal). There isno "present" in the world. The "future" is getting convertedinto "past" every fraction of a second.8. "Thoughtless" or "Peaceful" state, while being fully awake, ispossible, and it is easy, but we must have "willingness" .9. We can live without "thoughts" as we are in Deep Sleep."Thoughts" are always in respect of that element which is "non-existing". "Present" can be never a subject matter of "thought" ï¿½it is subject matter of "action" or "inaction". Only "past"and "future" can be subject matter of "thought". Both do not exist.10. As "thought" is always about an element which "does not exist"and as there is no existence of "world" ï¿½ disconnection with worldleads us to a thoughtless state. This disconnection is notphysical. It is by "Self" while fully awake. This disconnection iseither by "rejection" by the "Self" of unilaterally made connectionwith the world or by "acceptance" of that element whichis "present".Sadhaks now can ask questions on the material shared so far. Theymust come out with doubts if any on the above ï¿½ so thatdeliberations are swift and productive.PranaamJai Shree KrishnaVyas N B-Shree HariRam RamSwamiji has written extensively on this subject based on his 80years deep and intense study of the Gita, Ramcharitra Manas andother scriptures. He has summarized the essence of these texts andboldly stated quoting scriptures that realizing God is not likeacquiring things of the world that require effort. God cannot berealized through activity and effort (i.e. involvement ofmind/body/intellect). Due to the vastness of this topic, only onepoint is being addressed -Swamiji has emphasized having a relationship with Bhagwaan, and thatrelationship is not through some practice or effort. A relation willchange only by acceptance at the Self (Atma) level. I belong toKrishna and Krishna is my very own. This body is not me, nor mine.Until this acceptance doesn't happen at the Self level, nothing willbe gained. We may study or do as many different spiritual practicesas possible, but all it will do is bloat our ego, and in the endnothing will be gained. We will only attach another relation that Iam so knowledgeable, I have the best Guru, I have read the Gitathree times over. etc. etc.Acceptance by Self is best, that is why it is called "karannirpeksha" i.e. only through the predominance of discrimination(between real and unreal). The reason is that the essence of God isbeyond any action i.e. no activity can reach the essence of God.Therefore it is "immediate" on acceptance, and there is "no effort"required - simply acceptance, just like earlier example of newlymarried wife's acceptance of husband.Meera DasRam RamSir,Mike stated that the simplest method is to quiten the mind andsettledown, go insideto the divine. This is a fature that everyone has the conscience withand not divine. This conscience can be dulled and if we nurture it itdirect the ways of common good to all, a clear conscience.Thefeature is simple and true, but none can visit divine so easily. Thesupreme is beyond human vision and the presence of Him is understoodonly by the effects of His creation, which we call nature.Thank you,Paul ponniah..-Slowing of mind or dhairya or dhiir -gambhiir is involuntary resultof self realization by cutting down branches of ignorance by repeatedcontemplation or practice of purification of thoughts. With increasein purity, it moves up from specialization to generalization. Whenspecializations are immersed in generalization or abstract truth,movement of mind ceases. There is no other way of quietening of mind.Bhagway Gita says, Urdhva Moolam, Adhah Shaakhaam as the structure ofawareness of self or the origin. The general or Mool or rootknowledge is on the top, and as it is divided into branches flowingdown, these create perspectives by differring points of view andresult in conflicts. So you have growing different subjects insciences, technologies and politics in conflicts with one another.These branching actions are called Subjects or Vishay or poison ofmind.How does the branches first come to exist? What is the structure ofthe tree of creation? Mool or general is void with infinitepossibilities. RamCharit Maanas says, Tryah Shool Nirmoolanam ShoolPanim. This means, the origin of the three branches or TriShool (Sat,Raj Tam guna) is NirMool (without origin). Shiva is holding theNirMool (without origin), from which the TriShool is originated. Theword Kcchatria has meaning in the word itself. Kchhatria is gettingrid of the three Guna and immerse into Brahman. Kchhay = loss of,Triya = three Gunas. Arjun was Kchhatria as He was enduring aprocess of understanding to root of knowledge or the generalknowledge from the war of MahaBhaarata (Dharma Yuddha) wheninteraction amonst three branches or dharma of Sat, Raj, Tam gunatook place.RamCharit Maanas saysRamam Kaamari Shaivayam Bhav Bhay Harnam Kal MatteBh Singham,Yogindram, Zyan Gamyam, Guna Nidhi Vigitam, NirGunam NirVikaram.It says step by step movement of self realization in a prayer to SriRam 'Ramam Kaamari Shaiyam i.e., Sri Ram who is cleaning from ourmindunsuitable desires;Bhav Bhaya Haranam i.e., removing fear of the world and"Kaal Mattebh Singham i.e., acting like loin in removal of theconstraints of time; and then,Yogiindram, Zyan Gamyam = getting our mind introspective, and let itbe moving/progressing in right direction with logic and selfawareness without assumptions 'Guna Nidhi Vijitam i.e., conqueringocean of theGunas, NirGuman, Nirvikaram i.e., becoming NirGuna and without error.RegardsK G(Krishna Gopal)--I am happy that good things are discussed in this area. Itseems that we need to do saadhana repeatedly. Sri Krishnasuggested 'sanaihi sanairuparamet -- should through gradual practiceattain tranquility and fixing the mind on God. 'Yatoyato nischarati'he should repeatedly fix it on God.The PatanjaliYogasutra suggests 'Abhyaasa vairaagybhyam 'practice and dispassion in yoga. Lord Krishna also suggested 'Abhyaasenatu Kounteya Vairaagyenach gruhyate' practice and dispassionare necessary in saadhana to the saadhakaas or people practicingKarana Nirapeksha saadhana."golianjaneyulu"---Hari OmThis refers to the observations of Sadhaks on the posting made sofar.Reg Prabhakarji's observation that "practice" is the essence , I muststate that Gitaji does not to any "practice" to be resortedparticularly in the Discipline of Actionlessness, where eventhe "vilest sinner" becomes virtous( Dharmatma) and secures lastingpeace in a "kshipram" time (time which is less than even a second-instantly). He so becomes merely by "acceptance/resolution" whichagain is instant.Once tere is acceptance, all other processes right upto ParamatmaRealisation are AUTOMATIC, SPONTANEOUS, EFFORTLESS and ACTIONLESS !Here neither any eyes are to be closed (Meditation) , nor any nose isto be pressed (Pranayaam), nor any ears are to be closed(nididhyasan) nor any tedious procedure is warranted. All startswith an acceptance by SELF and in no time you have achieved thepurpose of human life.Regarding observations of Krishna Gopalji ( KG ) let me state thatonly in human birth a Jeeva can change his "SVABHAAV " and in noother form of life. Jeeva can change it in an instant , if he iswilling to change. That is why only "vilest sinner" becomes Dharmatma(Gita 9:31)Mike Keenor has indeed captured the entire subject in just onesentence - "Simplified says, quieten down the mind, go within" -that is divine. That indeed is amazing. Absolutely precise andaccurate . Thanks - please keep observing.Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B-Reply to query of MahalaxmijiJai Shri KrishnaWho has stated and where that devotional service, arti, cooking foodfor Krishna etc are inactions? We have not even touched upon thesepoints so far. We are indeed happy that you are indulged into thoseactivities. But here is a method of acceptance which makes your eachand every activity - not only cooking for Lord Krishna , or doingArti or discussing about His pastimes - but wHATEVER else you aredoing also equally that effective and productive ! . 24 Hours aday! That is possible only when you" become" of Him. You " become"of Paramatma by accepting - " Only He is mine, Nothing else is mine".So where is the contradiction? What is the query?We have not stated that devotional acts are bad or useless any where?From which posting the doubt has arisen in you? . However if you donot accept your exclusive relationship with Him , then the actionsreferred by you will only be fresh /new good/ sattvik Karmas . Theywill create Bondage for you, they still will give you results. Youwill not be able to get freedom from Bondage unless you haveexclusively accepted Krishna as yours. ( Doosara na Koi- Nothing elseis mine) Thereafter whether you do Arti or cook food for Him or notwill not be material - your each and every action will be a divyakarma - because SELF has changed ! When you will see a movie thenalso you will be deemed to be a devotee/ bhakta by Krishna- but onlywhen you accept what Swamiji has preached.24 hours a day - 365/366 days a year you shall be devotee of Krishnathen only- not otherwise. Be sure on that. Because then your falseself also remains in existence. Unless you become of Krishna - thetrue self remains under glove/cover only ! !A traditional Indian Wife never speaks the name of her husband. Doesthat mean that she is not of her husband? How she is not of herhusband? She has "accepted" ! Now whether she utters his name ornot, cooks food for him or not, how does that matter- once she has"become" of her husband ? Isn't it?Hence once you have "become" of Paramatma by "actionless/effortlessacceptance" then only the actions stated by you will become "divyakarmas" ( Divine actions) - not before that.We are all trying so far to tell you the importance of thatacceptance !Narayana NarayanaRajendra J Bohra--Priy Sadhaks,This is very crucial question. It is the aim for all of us. Accordingto Swamiji Attainment of god is really effortless. Noteit "EFFORTLESS". Taking that clue I tried to see what effortlessmeans. We may feel so many things happening in our body which areeffertless. Therefore I feel attainment & presence by experiencingheart beats in me and i feel its gods work going on. If trere is workthen there must be some one doing it ? Taking that lead I feel God'spresence in me and similarly in everybody. Comtemplate on this. maygod bless all of us by making us feel the all pervading effortlessly.ThanxRaja Gurdasani-----------------------------QUESTION: Kindly elaborate as to why accepting, rejecting,associating and disassociating are not actions as the item 6 belowseems to imply.6. "Self" has no capacity "to act". "Thinking" is an act of mind andnot of "Self". "Self" can only accept or reject, associate ordisassociate. Since in "Self" there is no "activity" ï¿½ thereforeonly "Self" realizes God.Jay Shree Krishna.Hemendra Parikh--Hari OmTo the question as to how there is no action involved in acceptanceor rejection, or love (Prem), devotion, desireless motive, (nishkaambhaav), remembrance (smriti),realisation, equanimity, experience,rejection, association, surrender, belief, faith, trust etc.- the answer is that there is no "tool" - Ego, Intellect, Mind, fivesenses e.g eye, ear, nose, skin, tongue and organs of action such ashands, legs etc - involved there. No tool at all !There is no movement of performance involved in acceptance etc.An "action" is first conceived in the mind. The previous body(form/place of existence) of every action is "mind" only. On accountof its nature of understanding the skill of performance, thisexpansion into the activity pertains to the mind. Mind is "the seedof those actions". The fruits or result of any action thereforeoccurs only to this mind. Actions exist thus first in the mind inthe form of imagination or will or sankalpa/desire.."The seed of action" - is the movement of mind or volition.Further the action must give results. There should then be a causefor action. There should be a desire/will existing in the mind to getactivated and attain movement or volition.Now in acceptance say of a Paramatma by a person, of a father by ason there is no involvement of ego, intellect, mind, hands, legs,eyes etc.. Mind is not involved because there is no knowledge fieldin which mind can travel i.e. can acquire movement or volition. Whennothing is known then what thoughts can arise, what activity mind canindulge into? What will or imagination can occur in respect of thatelement about which nothing is known by the mind- which is beyondmind? What is thinkable there? Nothing in fact. There is no causeinvolved for movement or volition of mind in acceptance, surrender,belief, faith, trust,devotion, prem etc.Entry into the mind of any reflections or experiences or conscienceor realisation or pure knowledge or equanimity and automatic arisingof any remembrance etc are not actions of mind. There the mind is amirror only. What is action of water when sun gets reflected there?What action do you do when someone enters your house? It is action ofother not of you.The direct experience of all of us also suggests that mind is notinvolved in acceptance or love etc. What kind of mind a child canboast of? Thoughts? How easily and how solidily he accepts hismother. Does he know as to how his mother is his mother? What can hismind can think about when he does not know anything? If he canaccept - then it gets proved that mind etc are not involved inacceptance.No knowledge, power, action, capacity, ability, labour, learning,education, practice, process, art, time etc is needed in acceptance.Only SELF is needed. What time does it take to accept? Not even afraction of a second- in an instant !When acceptance is made by self, then there is no forgetfulness. Itis absolute. Even without remembering one remembers always that he ismarried, or he is a brahmin (caste) or he is Indian/American orson/wife of So and So . Acceptance by SELF is that powerful !Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B----Shree Hari-Mahalaksmi Dasi,It is clear that you have a great desire to be at one with Lord.Is that not wonderful? There are many people so caught up in thehurly-burly of life who do not give such things a second thought.That desire you have will ensure your success, never loose sight ofit. Also you have come to this site and asked for direction. Manylikeme could well have used such assistance, but did not know of it.I started looking at Bhagavad Gita :12 in response to your question,started to pick out a verse or two, then realized the whole chaptershould be read.You will have noticed a common theme in the Sadhaks responses,simplified says, quieten down the mind, go within.With Respect and Divine Love,Mike(Mike Keenor)--NEW QUESTION:my respect and gratitude to all in this forum,I have some questions on the initial material, which I pray I canask in a clear way, without any prejudice. To begin...#6... "Self" has no capacity "to act". "Thinking" is an act of mindand not of "Self". "Self" can only accept or reject, associate ordisassociate. Since in "Self" there is no "activity" ï¿½ thereforeonly "Self" realizes.My question arises from my own training in BhagavadGita/spiritual discipline. I have always understood that we have amaterial body, and ego, which are separate from the true ego andspiritual form, which is now covered over. The material body iscovering, or "fitting" over the true self much like a glove....whichtakes the perfect contour of the original form. The true selfperforms actions in relation to the Supreme....these actions are inthe form of devotional activities, including but not limited to suchthings as offering arati to the Lord, cooking food and makingofferings on the altar to the deities/pictures of the Lord, (or thealtar within the heart), reading, discussing, etc. about the Lord.In other words, this activity which we are here engaging in, thisdiscussion about the nature of the soul and it's connection with theSupreme, would be classified, according to my understanding, asactivity of a true spiritual nature. It is not inactivity. This isnot the same as sitting and writing about a person of the materialworld, as it is centered around the Supreme Lord. Hence, the qualityof the activity is what would clarify it as a true spiritual actionof the soul, or a mundane activity relating only to the body. Bhag.Gita 5.6 substantiates this..."Unless one is engaged in thedevotional service of the Lord, mere renunciation of activitiescannot make one happy. The sages, purified by works of devotion,achieve the Supreme without delay." Please clarify.Sincere thanks, Mahalaksmi Dasi-To quieten the mind and enjoy freedom thoughts occur to all providedpeople develop vairagya and practice in that direction. Really hardis that but krishna says it is possible through the repetion andwill.In this process some achieve siddhi and some a little late andsome never.This is so depending upon their mind set up anddetermination.More number of people are afraid to do this. It is likeyoga master getting a fundamental response guruji if i close my eyesi am afraid there is pitch darkness and i cannot stand.guruji encourages no. be not afraid slowly you hit upon light andthat is om and that is the manistation of the god either in form orsound. proceed . experience has no substitute in this direction . Itis like krishna saying tasmat yuddhyasva bharata. Here bharata saysdeeep interest in self because nation and the king are one's own.om samprabhakar c l-Shram (effort), Pari-s-shram ( act of reducing effort) and Ashram(effortlessness) are different condition of work in an environmentvis-a-vis ones' state of nature (swabhaav). Any work is achievedeither by effort (shram), or by technique (parisshram), or gets doneby doing nothing (ashram). It all depends on how is the work againstswabhaav, called effort or shram like pushing cart uphill. By goinguphill by using automobile or car, is a parishram (shram but in adifferent way) because it is an act of overcoming effort bytechnique. And finally, ashram which is effortlessness by gravity(natural) pull of cart from higher altitude to lower altitude.Applying this principle to living being, it is natural for monkey tojump from tree to tree, and men can just walk. It applies in same wayin organizations. Thus, a work is difficult or easy is not aboutphysical sciences but depends on nature (swabhaav) of hose doing it.When Sri Krishna says about Ashram or Varna (color, personality traits) -Ashram (in effortless state), He means it by individuals' self nature, and condition of effortlessness or dharma. Sri Krishna said to Arjun that His fighting war is certain no matter what, as it is natural or involuntary action of Kchatria. He thus had no choice, and Bhagwat Gita only explained it how the nature works inside every living and non-living being, and creating illusion of choices.Einstein also came to same conclusion in studying relativity, and position of observers (points of views) limiting the vision.RegardsK G(Krishna Gopal)-------------------------------Kindly elaborate as to why accepting, rejecting, associating and disassociating are not actions as the item 6 below seems to imply.Jay Shree Krishna.Hemendra Parikh---By some strange coincidence I became member of this group. After becoming member, I scanned through the Gita Talk web site and was really surprised to see the depth of answers given to various questions. I am genuinely interested in knowing about the Discipline of Actionlessness. And I am looking forward to it. I totally agree with Vyas N. B. that such deliberations can yield results only in a serious and sarcasm free environment. Infact, personally I don't mind being called "blind" also so long as I receive the light from such learned battery of contributors. May be some day my blindness also will get cured (Like Mike's Coal basket). I liked also immensely the replies given by Mike Keenoor, Mira Dass, Naga Narain and of course Vyas N.B.If permitted by moderator, I will also like to present my doubtsbefore this forum.Murli Manohar Purohit-Question: How does one who is not able to immediately feel the Lord's presence rise to that level? What is the path of attaining what some individuals have without effort, and how is it that they have this? many thanks, Mahalaksmi Dasi-Please keep trying various Yog and the efforts will accumulate to achieve Moksh if not in this life then carried to the next, according to Lord krishn.Dr BalMukund Bhala.--To suggest that only "siddha" can answer such high level question is a form of very low level sarcasm. Even Swamiji in his last Will referred himself as sadhak only. Such remarks discourage and deter the genuine and willing participants to share their thoughts and should be cut off by Moderator himself at the outset or words like blind leading blind.Long list of other adjectives such as "old conservative practice of arranged marriage" can be misconstrued or misunderstood, and therefore must be avoided.I am myself a humble reader and follower of the ways which Swamiji has indicated. I would be happy if whole of my life I can remain sadhak only. Mira Dassji, Vyasji, Pratapji, G Vaidyanathanji, Mike Keenorji , Sharmaji, Bohraji, Naga Narayanji, KG , Adrienji, Papruniaji etc - they all and many others are contributing so seriously in deliberations , why can't we learn from them? I request Vyasji to proceed with his oblations in this Jnana Yagya- undeterred, fearlessly. We all are sadhaks only and love to remain that way only. Of course we will ask questions .Ramchandra--Dear Sadaks,Prahalad and Durva in childhood attained divinity.Thirugnanasambader attain when 5 years old. Vaishnavite Alwar Namalwar attained divinity at the age as a child crawling. HOW? Sadaks we all know that life span does not end when body dies. The soul along with 5 kosas and vasanas has to enter a womb to fulfil it`s vasanas, perform it`s karmas etc.The above said saints already attained , so it is effortless to them as they already put in efforts in earlier births. Examples: Devaki and Vasudev were in Sanyasa Marg in earlier birth. When Sri Vishnu appeared they asked boon that Bagavan to be their child and so it happened. Jada Bharatha was Bhathayogiswar in 1st birth, desired to rare a deer and was born as deer 2nd birth and in 3rd birth he attained moksha. But in his 3rd birth he was born with divinity without effort.Vaali in Sri Ramayan was killed by Sri Rama. But Vaali realized divinity at his last breath after Sri Rama discussion attaining liberation gives moksha effortlessly.NamasteB..Sathyanarayan--SitaRam SitaRam ki jai.Naam japa (name recitation) open many doors. Have full faith in God and japa of His name, all the time; whenever you have a chance. You will see things will come out in your favour and your faith will strengthen and you will feel the presence of God.Sher Agrawal-------------------------Question: How does one who is not able to immediately feel the Lord's presence rise to that level? What is the path of attaining what some individuals have without effort, and how is it that they have this? many thanks, Mahalaksmi Dasi---Hari OmThe humanity at large, for all times to come in future, shall remain indebted to Param Shraddheya Swamiji Shri Ramsukhdasji Maharaj who by his extensive research and power of simple expression proved that if you are willing, you can realise Paramatma instantly- just as told by Lord Krishna to Arjuna in Gitaji 9:30/31.The Geeta Talk Moderator has quite appropriately captioned the topic for discussion as " Discipline of Actionlessness". This discipline undoubtedly is the gift of Swamiji (Maharajji - as we used to devotedly address him) to the world at large.If the fellow sadhaks leave the shelter of sarcasm and become really serious in understanding the subject, I - with the help of Mira Dasji, Rajendraji Bohra and many other sadhaks (which I know are many) who have "really" studied the books of Swamiji - can take the lead in explaining this subject in 7/8 one page postings - maximum 10 ! But the condition is that there should be serious environment for understanding. There should be no sarcasm, no irrelevant questions, no funny arguments, no personal remarks, no hidden taunts, etc at least during these deliberations. I would love to attend to the counter queries of all the sadhaks provided they reflect a real desire to understand the topic, their observations genuinely point out to practical difficulties which they encounter in implementing the processes involved, the laws, principles and teachings of Swamiji. They must ask questions, that would encourage me and other contributors but without any personal sarcasm or giving titles like "siddha" etc. The sadhaks must for this purpo

May 14, 2009

Shree Hari Ram RamNEW POSTINGHari OmNarinderji Maharaj ! At the outset I must say that I thought wrongly. A human can always do so !

But let me tell as to why I felt, what I stated. You were constantly

telling - Meditation is only way, Meditation is only way! Now when you

go deeper into any sadhana - this "ONLY" becomes obstacle. Secondly,

there is no "live" or "dead" Guru ! Gurus are never bodies ! Thirdly,

spiritual ego is always within, never outside. Hence unless you have

that ego within , you can't notice it outside at all- it is a law ! I

repeat it is a law !! Fourthly, you can never get anything out of inert

unless you reconcile yourself to be a "bhogi" - it does not matter what

Mr Osho taught to you.Then there was a noticeable addiction to

"doership" and "non doership" subject- as if that is key- catapulting

into rather debatable (in my personal view- absolutely wrong) views

about "Prarabdha" and "Purushartha" ! "Notice me", "Notice me" - this

tendency was visible clearly with unique liking to even "name" given to

you by the world (Ever understood as to why many sadhaks do not even

let their names to appear in full, many shorten them? - what is so

important about the name ?, many never let that to be even known- e g

GT Moderators) Above all, there was intense "insistence" that ages and

eons are required to reach at spiritual progresses/milestones. "Grace

of God" is automatic, Narinderji ! It can't be prayed for or sought !!

There are many other "subtle" things, which I, innocently, sitting in

Equanimous mode (in my personal view) observed. Since it is my duty (

again in my personal view- that is how I thought ) to point out the

same to you (as a Sadhak would do to another)- I took the liberty of

expression.But, I feel now that you don't need any such views-

for you already have had what you ever needed ! Hence you may feel free

and enjoy! By the way, I still feel 'difficulties' in my own 'sadhana'-

though they are quite 'subtle' ! But that may be only because I must be

erring somewhere. May be those difficulties are told by me even before

they are apparent. I know why they are ( I do have Swamiji to tell me)

but I don't know as to why they should be ! But I do have, undoubtedly,

unlike your kind self !! Let me confess one thing.

I took this forum with an objective. I wanted to spread the teachings

of Swamiji in a practical manner. I would observe each sadhak with a

view to find out as to where he should be finding difficulties. That

was not sitting in "judgement" nor that was exhibition of some "extra"

knowledge, that was goal which I set, to let sadhak know where exactly

the improvement is needed. (It is my personal view/bhava) I thought the

Satsanga meant that. For that purpose, I had to be direct, I had to be

rather iron handed,but honestly, I would surrender the karmas to Him in

the end. Some very typical Qs thus were answered by me rather

ruthlessly. I thought if I am able to change even one soul towards

Swamiji's teachings, I have done an akarma. Hence I never missed any

question. I never relaxed till I put right thing, in detail.To my mind,

that was "Love"- which you have referred Narinderji !Amen! Namaste !! Till we meet again !!! Sarve Bhavantu Sukhina, Sarve Santu Niramaya !Sarve Bhadrani Pashyanti, Ma Kaschit Dukh Bhag Bhavet !!

Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B

------------------------Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!Dear Vyasji, thank you very much for your

kind response reg action-less-ness. I have always appreciated the

aptness in your response! I am sharing what I have understood mostly by

staying with living Spiritual Teacher, and from meditating upon his

words. I do not insist on "my way" as the only way. I have the highest

regards for Swamiji as well. Let us explore together to see if we are saying the same in essence.You

say action means the doership only when we understand that unreal,

inert doesn't exist(Nasato Vidyate Bhavo..).I see that Actions just

happen, because they belong to Prakriti, Impersonally driven by Gunas.

Our body-mind belong to Prakriti, and Prakriti does exist, as God being immanent in it as Manifest! God is beyond it too, Unmanifest! Besides, Prakriti cannot

assume doership being inert reflecting only Existence-Isness-Sat. So per BG 3:27, man can only think

he is the "doer" in ignorance. Man deluded by Ego is same as Self

identified with body-mind in ignorance(Self-forgetfulness). To

lead/wake him to say Nashto moha...BG 18:73, he has to be told "you are

not the Doer, even as actions happen through the organism in YOUR

Presence as Atman-Purusha! Then in BG 3:23 Even God says if He didn't

engage relentlessly in actions, Man would also do the same, in 24th He

even says worlds will perish if He did not perform actions! God,

knowing He is not the Doer, He says this to us to see actionlessness in

actions! Such actionless is present in actions as Sun shining, Nature

unfolding, etc but the doer/desirer/and attachment are not present!

This is what I understand! Now Let us explore "Nasato Vidyate Bhavo....." 2:16, because I see it a bit differently than you

do.That which IS not(unreal), never comes to being, and that which IS(Real) never ceases to be! It says unreal, not inert!

Inert which is jada has being only, because it simply IS! Unreal cannot

be even perceived, is non-existent. So Prakriti IS manifest

Reality(Saguna Sakar Brahman)! Purusha and Prakriti are ONE Reality,

not TWO! in Ch 10, Vibhutiyoga, Lord is telling that He is the sun,

moon, Himalaya, Oceans....! Purusha(Shiva) is Prakriti(Shakti) when in

motion, not two separate Realities! This is the vision of Vedanta also!

Beingness(Sat) as reflected in Prakriti is Consciounsess(Chit), our

inner Reality-I and the two are One and the same. I am sorry. if I

sound like a broken record but This is the most important

Realization/Vision of Truth of Non-dual Vedanta!Renunciation of

inert means Realizing the Imperishable Beingness-Brahman in the

perishable aspect of Manifest and taking our stand

as that Imperishable even as body-mind-intellect-senses changes. This

is the Discrimination Shankara is talking about as I understand it!

Perishability that is being talked in scripture is only to that which

we consider separate existence(Names/Forms) because for separation from

Totality, time-space concept arise in Imperishable Brahman expressed as

Thought-Consciounsess! And that which is bound by space-time has

beginning and end, but not to that Totality of Being free of

Space-Time-cause-effect! World as separate objects is Mithya-Nama/rupa, not unreal!

You are right in saying Non-doership is sahaj-natural and not

planned/forced/thought. because in its sponteneity, there is the

absence of thought, which is what the "me" is claiming "non-doership"

via this thought "I am not the doer"!Namaskar...........Pratap Bhatt.---------------------------

Dear Sadaks,

God realization never lengthy process. kannapa,

Gajendra elephant, Pingala (prostitute), Ajamilan worst characterised

person, Arunagiri Nath the man behind woman only even at stage with

leprosy, and so many attained realization. Their histories and

monuments built are telling the truth. The problem with us is that we

do not renounce at one stroke fully and sit in silence to surrender to

Bagavan. Always thinking of differances between action and action less,

I -Me-Mine or Nothing, God and Prakurthi Etc. It is very clear in

Srimath Bagavath that what all came from Bagavan, what type of people-

Gunas- creation Etc. It says that from hair of Bagavan came Roma

Harashar (type of people), from Nabi (Ambalical cord) Bhramaji etc. It

is also very clear in Srimath Bagavath and Geetha that Bagavan is NOT

realizable by the senses/organs/by other means except by Gyana Roop

which is again in Sabtha (devine sounds) Roop.

ONLY Sat Exists after Maha Pralaya (end of world- described in detail

in vedas), and Asat also exists after creation. That Duvaitham (Two

concepts) Sat and Asat exists practically to all humans. But ONLY to

realized one only Sat exists in his pure conscience (only intellect NO

budhi) level. But for worldy minded ones everything appears as TWO.

Besides Vedas and Sastras says that they (Vedas & Satras) are unable to define SAT, then where are we?

Prahaldh

says that the punisher (his father & solders ) and myself

(prahalad) are one and the same Vasudev. Then where is action and

action less? Where is doer and non doer for realized one like Prahalad?

For us surely 2 not 1.

When one does not give room in his heart for Paramathuma, desires pours

in. But room only for Paramathuma in heart, desires NEVER exist, is

simple theory. Chirst said," Empty they self (empty your heart) the I

(GOD) shall fill it (HEART)". Where can one empty with Ego, desires

Vasanas Etc in bundles? The doer and non doer both vanishes as one

completely surrenders to GOD, and it is the duty bound of GOD to clear

all Ego, vasanas, desires, doer/nondoer etc, says Sastra Bagavatha

Sampradhaya (Bagavan care). Sadaks have sama Dhristi- No to Raga and

Duvesa- Likes and dislikes.

Jai Sri Krishna

B.Sathyanarayan----------------------------At this moment,dear Sadhaks,

two Topics are being discussed

....................... one about Effortless Attainment ...... and the

Other about " The Difficulties faced in actualising the teachings of

The Geetha "...............

Can you see, dear sadhaks,.................do you see the Paradox..................???

Please allow narinder to share with you the

essence of Sadhna , as shown to him by his guru........... Section 4 of

Kena Upanishad is the basis of it.........

1. The Knowledge of brahama is the highest ...........

2.As a result of ones Sadhna ( Karma,Bhakti,

Gyana) , and deep longing for Truth, A sadhak gets a peep into the

Vastness of Truth, just as Lightening reveals the vastness of the skies

for one moment.

there is a sudden enlarging of the

mind, a flash of Light enlightening the Intellect,an in pouring of the

spirit causing fervour and joy ineffable.

3.The sadhaka has now to continue to use his

experience to move higher and higher into the Concioiusness called "

Brahaman ".............. this movement has to find reflection in his

conduct in the world around him, the world has to be used as a

training ground for oneself.

4. One day,some day,as a result of one's sadhna " sin is overcome and one gets established in the supreme ....."

Section TWO of the Kena Upanishad speaks about the " Paradox of the Inscrutability of Brahaman "

please permit narinder to share the following dialogue between nari and narinder ..........

"keep working on yourself , narinder ..............all that nari has had to say .............. all that came to him as a blessing, as joy and peace, as love , as wisdom from the wise, as speech from silence, lovingly has nari shared with narinder ............ he has nothing more to add.............. all that he had to say, has been said ............ his heart, with love, joy and satisfaction of being, is filled ........................ much have you given to him, narinder .......... and even more from God he recieved ................ filled to the brim is nari .... and his vessel is now totally empty revelling in timeless silence , his head he lays at Krishna's feet ................ "

nari's final words to thee are ..................... " Keep working on yourself, narinder ............ be yourself ............. love yourself, narinder, ........................ love yourself wisely .................... keep working on yourself narinder ................. and pay heed to what the knowers of Truth lovingly do say............ let not your Mind come too much into play .................. all the buddhas are smiling on you............. and are ever guiding you .......... just inhale their fragrance ............... holding your Mind from any comments , or judgement .......................... and should you still feel the need for succour

............. go, lay your head at the feet of the saints and sages and wash their feet with tears of Love ............. aapo deepo bhava, narinderBlessings of the Buddhas be with thee ........."

AUM

narinder bhandari---Jai Shree Krishna

Sadhakhood is a bhava ! When sadhaks converse they become Guru and

Pupil to each other. In Satsanga, the hall mark is that your

difficulties , if any, are identified naturally and are addressed even

if you dont like. Hence the glory of Satsanga. In fact sadhaks must

bring out deep within lying problems faced by them in sadhana before

the forum. Swamiji would often say that He learnt many things from the

listeners too. Satsanga is a forum where you should be transparent ,

open. It is definitely not a place of exhibiting any knowledge or

expertise. It is a place where difficulties are to be identified, and

sorted out. The greatest obstacle in that is a human's tendency to

believe that he is perfect, and he knows it all. Swamiji stated this to

be a stumbling block. Lucky are those guys to whom some one points out

their problems and faults.If in Satsanga they are not pointed out and

admitted, where they will get? That some one ( the pointer

out of faults in you) in fact takes a risk of getting curt reply. of

being told - Sorry ! I dont need your advice, but he still persists for

he is in Satsanga. In the process, his own ego gets wiped out. He loves

that. But keeps going unchanged. He kills the ego of others and before

he does that puts his own ego on chopping block and thus goes forward

real Satsanga. Egos of both get wiped out. I like this forum because of

this.

Pranaams.

Swami Rupesh Kumar ---PRIOR POSTINGHari OmPratapji ! Your observation is understandable. You are right when you say that "action" belongs to Prakruti. But you are Purusha. "Action" does not belong to you. Moreover there is no part of you belonging to Prakruti. " Mam eva" (Mine only) - We are part of God ONLY. And God is beyond Prakruti. Clear?Now come to mandatoryness "action" . If you just mould your thought pattern to believe that "Nasato Vidyate Bhavo" ( Unreal, inert, doesn't exist) , you will understand that "action" means "doership" only. This very distinction of "sat existing" and "asat not existing" needs to be grasped/accepted by sadhaks with surgical precision and clarity. When you accept this firmly, Gita will start looking newer and newer to you. When you accept this- the disnctions of the type say "money" and "attitude towards money" will not arise at all.Thus, by being "non doer" also "actionlessness" is achieved.But that "non doer ness" should not be forced/planned/ thought of. It should be "sahaj" (automatic) ; else you will not fall into "na kinchidapi chintayet" ( You shall not think for anything, even slightly) !When you go deeper into teachings of Gitaji, you will find that "actionlessness" necessarily implies "disconnection with inert (nature) " . Because the very characteristics of nature is "action". Hence "desirelessness" is considered to be "silence" (inaction)- "inner silence" as pointed out by Miraji Dass.Therefore, I would urge you, to always keep this fact (Nasato Vidyate Bhavah) in focus as a sadhak. That will have very positive impact on sadhana, knowledge of Scriptures and grasping of subtle points of Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj. Never stick to any thought as an "obsession". Never feel your way is the only way- Never ! Also "Equanimity" is "actionlessness" ! Can these things be grasped if you give "satta" (recognition) and "mahatta" (respect/importance) to inert ? No ! Hence "Nasato Vidyate Bhavo"Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B------I now find that Narinderji Bhandari also has similar difficulties. Many many others should be having similar difficulties. May be that even Vasudev Sathyanarainji ! Such sadhaks are at the core very serious and " quite pure by antahkarana" . But erroneously they reconcile to the fact that: God Realisation is a lengthy process !dear Vyas jee,narinder 's Guru used to say to him.................................. " Be aware of your own feelings, your own self .You can never know the other . Neither can you ' know' him,nor bring about any transformation in the other,until you become enlightened yourself ; and when that happens, you start seeing the other in a new light. The Light of Love. "You can see the other's point of view with love ...and it is with Love that is Krishna,that the other is able to move out of the eclipsing factor in his own self. All is between Krishna and the Individual .All between the Self and the self.You do not come into it ,narinder ! " In our interaction,dear Vyas jee,narinder has found no dichotomy. We seem to be uttering thesame Truths in different words .Believe me,narinder has no ' difficulties'. His expression may falter in communication .......... but difficulties of understanding ,he seems to be quite quite free from.He is aware,though,that he has yet to move into Abidance of Truth becoming his conduct in action............................. and,it is for that, he seeks HIS Grace . In spiritual seeking, levels become redundent ...for narinder,.............. he cannot judge, nor has a wish to do so.. Narinder finds Vyas jee,Sathyanarain jee,Mike jee,Partap jee, Naganarayan jee,Shashikala jee, Meera je, Sadhna jee,Sushil jain jee ..................... and many more Sadhaks pursuing their individual Sadhna with deep sincerity and in the great spirit of understanding . narinder shares his ' small' light with them .............. the conclusions are their own . It is between each one and Krishna. Thank you for your desire for narinder's welfare and progress in the spiritual field. AUM With deep respect, narinder bhandariPRIOR POSTINGHari OmThe biggest obstacle in Karan Nirapeksha Sadhan is a human's habit of relying on mind/intellect. It is my experience that one finds it very difficult to "accept" that he is NOT mind. We have become too attached and habitual of identifying ourselves with mind.A lot of discussion took place in the past on the subject. In fact, our Mike Keenor also took time to digest the same. But then, as we kept on insisting on the same, and as Mike is himself a very serious sadhak, I think he grasped the same, later on. I invite him to share his thoughts on the subject.His views shall indeed be very relevant and very beneficial to our Brethren because I now find that Narinderji Bhandari also has similar difficulties. Many many others should be having similar difficulties. May be that even Vasudev Sathyanarainji ! Such sadhaks are at the core very serious and " quite pure by antahkarana" . But erroneously they reconcile to the fact that: God Realisation is a lengthy process ! As they think, so becomes the process !!Basically, the existence of mind is for misery. ( i. e. productive of sorrow) ! The destruction of mind is for happiness. Leading the reality of the mind to decay, let one bring on the destruction of the mind. Know the mind as "existing", which is supported by happiness and sorrow and very still only on the cognition , " I am". It is the longing of the tree of worldly existence at budding time.{ Legend has it that the Asoka tree longs for the kicks of young ladies and the Bakula for the sprinkling of mouthfuls of liquor at budding time just as pregnant women have peculiar longings during pregnancy periods. When the tree of worldly existence brings forth the diverse objects, it is the mind which arises first, which, in turn, generates the world}They consider his mind as "lost or destroyed" whom states of happiness and misery, misfortune, pride, dullness and jubilation do not lead to difference in nature/outlook.Thus in my notes to sadhaks , I insisted for EQUANIMITY. Nothing "destroys" ( in fact neutralises) the mind as decisively as does equanimity. Equanimity does not root out "noble virtues" out of you. There is spontaneous expression of "Daivi Sampada" ( BG 16:1/3) in a liberated soul on account of good Vaasana-s . But these do not bind the mind to worldly existence.Such a mind is ever free.Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B--------------Namaste, Dear Ones!I want to clarify my own understanding with respect to Vyasji's post below."Sadhaks should note that by "action" you cannot get Paramatma. It is a law. Whatever be the "action" that you may do ! Hence "actionlessness" is MANDATORY. Once you "accept" this fact, Gita will start looking new to you. Try it."As I understand, no one can remain without actions, actions belong to nature(body-mind), says Gita too! What is meant is that "doership" is optional, actions are not!Being doesn't require a "personal doer" to BE, and yet all "actors" and "actions" needed for Divine Play takes place on the Grand Stage of Being(SELF-Existence-Absolute)!Thus, "actionlessness" is actions without being such a personal "doer".Namaskar........Pratap Bhatt--Hari OmSadhaks should note that by "action" you cannot get Paramatma. It is a law. Whatever be the "action" that you may do ! Hence "actionlessness" is MANDATORY. Once you "accept" this fact, Gita will start looking new to you. Try it.Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B-Shree HariRam RamSwamiji says - Where our senses and intellect do not reach is Inner Silence. Inner Silence is beyond the intellect. Decisions are made by the intellect. Where there is no mind, senses or intellect is karan nirpeksh (without dependence of instruments). The essence is without instrument (karan rahit). There is nothing to be done there. No means are required to reach the essence - it is without instruments. This essence is Inner Silence free of instruments (karan nirpeksh). It is what IS. It is the foundation of everything - the root. Meera Das, Ram Ram----narinder is beholden to Naarad N Maharshi jee for all the love contained in his words of advice ........................ whenever narinder reads Swami Ramsukhdas jee's words, the mind goes into a fast ....... and, there is Joy in narinder's heart, ............. that invariably happens because the words of a Realised Sage flow from the Innate Silence of His being ! .......... Blessed are the sadhakas, whose Minds bow in reverence at the feet of the Saints and the Sages .......... Nanak says this Bowing is the Way................. AUM narinder----------------------Shree Hari RAm RamNamaskar Ramchandraji... Welcome back ! Thank you for your beautiful submissions in Hindi over the past couple of months... particularly the poetry on Swamiji. Unfortunately we have no one right now who can translate such beautiful works... However we will certainly keep and translate in future... From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram RamPRIOR POSTINGAh, sadhaks........................ are any more words needed ................. ????????????? the words of Swami Ramsukhdas here are adequate to lead anyone into his own Being ..... ever free from any idea or dependence on the Other ! Is this not the Truth that the Swami himself is blessing us here with ! ? To renounce - no instrument is needed. It is done by the "Self" only. It is an easy and better path - "karan nirpeksh saadhan". ..............................................................AH ! Jai Jai Krishna .................. if , however the self finds inadequacy in these words ............... is unable to renounce the sense of Agency ( Doing )...............no need to worry ! ........ let the self follow the longer route of Yoga ................ Perhaps, Patanjali's Ashtang Yoga could be most appropriate , with the shalokas of the Lord's Song Celestial touching your Mind and Heart ! Step by Step By Step.................. into the realisation that you were indeed never the DOER ! And then.............. on realisation ................ One just laughs ! ... Laughter Happens ! AUM sweetest words ever ! ( .........below ).................. ! and , perhaps , amongst the fewest ! .......... for yet greater Joy, read the Swami's complete message ........... ................................................. " To renounce - no instrument is needed. It is done by the "Self" only. It is an easy and better path - 'karannirpeksh saadhan'............................."" .................................................................. ah !! a... h... u.... m ..................aum !!AUM narinder:Shree Hari:Ram RamSUMMARY : Whatever saadhan is done by the Self is "karan nirpeksh." There is no dependence on anything (instrument) or anyone. It is totally independent. The Real cannot be realised by the assistance of the unreal - it is realised by disconnection with the unreal. So separate your Self from the Unreal and you will realise the Self.For disconnection with Unreal and acceptance of the Real you do not need the assistance of any outside agency and results (success) will be quick. This is a very good discipline, free of risks "karan nirpeksh saadhan".Saadhan By The SelfWe have been discussing the topic of 'with and without the assistance of instruments' (karan saapeksh and karan nirpeksh). What you do and can do with your Self is karan nirpeksh (without the assistance of instruments) . For example your acceptance that God is mine, your belief in God, your decision not to harm or hurt anyone, decision not to lie, etc. These can all be done without the assistance of any instrument (body, person, place, etc.). You are totally independent to do these things. To attain God also you are totally independent. There is no dependence on anything or anyone.Being dependent on instruments there are chances of one falling down from his path of practice. The one who is not dependent on instruments cannot fall down. Not dependent on instruments is "independent saadhan" (Karan Nirpeksh) and being dependent on instruments is dependent saadhan (Karan Saapeksh). God realisation is not dependent on any instrument. It is done by the Self. It happens when you leave the dependence of all instruments. It cannot happen before.There are two methods of saadhan - (i) by doing and (ii) by not doing. There is no effort required in renunciation (not doing) of things what should not be done e.g. 'I will not hurt anyone', 'I will not lie', 'I will not abuse anyone', 'I' will not criticise anyone' - no capability is required, no effort is required.Renouncing is easier than doing. You get instant and endless peace (Gita 12:12). You have spoilt your habit - that is why it seems difficult. It is easy. It is tougher to lie than to tell the truth. You have to learn to lie, there is nothing to learn to tell the truth.Does it take a child any effort to go to his mother's lap? We are the children of God. We can easily go back to Him. We have accepted the things that have been given to us as ours and have forgotten the one who has given them to us. Only God is ours. The more neutral you are to the world the easier it is. You get sorrows only because of your acceptance of things that are not yours (Body, World) as yours and not accepting what is yours as yours (God).You hear these things in satsang - it is not for hearing only. It is for applying in your life. These are very helpful things for your salvation. People who do satsang must have the inner sentiments of renouncing the evil. To renounce - no instrument is needed. It is done by the "Self" only. It is an easy and better path - "karannirpeksh saadhan".Summary of Discourse by Swami Ramsukhdasji on June 16th, 1998 at 5 a.mRam Ram---PRIOR POSTINGHari OmThis refers to learned observations of Pratapji Bhatt on thesubject. I fully agree with him as well as Naga Narainji thatultimately it is Vedanta teachings which have to be the decidingfactors. Here the beautiful example given by Mike Keenor of thetwo birds in fact straight away comes from our Upanishads (Vedanta)only. I am sure we all are unanimous on one front that the essenceof all Vedas is in Upanishads, and essence of all Upanishads is inGitaji.. With this background I address your observations.Any science, in order to understand a subject, breaks the subjectmatter into parts. Vedanta and Gitaji also, breaks the variouscomponents of body, soul, world etc into parts. You will appreciatethat Gitaji defines/classifies Para and Apara Prakriti, Jeeva, Puresoul, mind, intellect, ego, body, Paramatma, world, Nature etc. intobasically two parts. Sentient and inert. Chetan and Jad. Sat andAsat. Not only Gita but entire Upanishads and Vedas also do so. Refer Gita'sfundamental principle " NASATO VIDYATE BHAVO , NAABHAVOVIDYATE SATAH' (Gita 2:16). There is no existence of Asat ( unreal). There isno absence of Sat( Real). Now all Vedas, Upanishads, Gita include Pure soul /Paramatma as Sat, Jeevatma in two parts - one part of Sat , another part of Asatdue to forming an affinity with Asat. Half this, half that say. That is Ego. InEgo when you remove ASAT part, you have broken the affinity with theworld/matter/nature/body. Only God or Self is remains. The intellect, mind, bodyfunctioning, actions, karmas all changeautomatically. It is a settled principle as per Vedanta thatIntellect, Mind, Chitta form part of "Subtle body". Ego is "causalbody" and remaining body like hand, eye, legs etc are part of "grossbody". (We should admire the precision with which our Scriptureshave broken the body into various segments). These threebodies in Upanishads have been called - "KOSHAS " . The nearest tothe Soul is Ego which, resides in CAUSAL BODY. Another name ofcausal body given in Upanishads is " AGYAANMAYA KOSHA' (IgnoranceZone). In ego as stated earlier Jeeva is sitting forming an affinitywith the matter. Hence ignorance lies not in mind but in Jeeva.Jeeva dispels the ignorance by breaking affinity with the world. MEAND MINE both reside in Ego . Likings and dislikings reside in Ego.How can "mineness" reside in mind? It resides in Jeeva not in mind.Jeeva is DOER. Not the mind. Jeeva suffers, the continuous cycle ofbirth and death. Jeeva goes to hell, heaven, etc. Not the mind orintellect or eyes, or ears. They are consigned to the flames themoment Jeeva leaves the body. The same mind stops functioning. Sameeyes stop seeing. It proves that the very basis of mind, intellectetc is Jeeva (Self). Hence the difference between Jeevaand Jagat is obvious. It is precisely therefore in Vedanta, so muchimportance has been given to CONSCIENCE (Viveka) ï¿½ whichDISCRIMINATES. We must discriminate. We cant reach anywhere if wedon't discriminate mind with self, sat and asat, jad( inert) andChetan ( sentient). When all Vedas do that, Upanishads do that,Gita does that, what is the problem in our doing that?Once it is clear that next to Soul is Ego - causal body. Ego controls Subtlebody and subtle body controls gross body ï¿½ then this concept put forwardbecomes easy to follow.The problem is that we don't classify. We have become too accustomedto identify ourselves with asat / with mind. Anything will come inmind only. Where else it can go in this body ? Even God Realisationwill come in mind only. So what? That does not make a machine, aninert tool, mind that important. If the KARTA (Doer) changes, theactions/thoughts automatically change - it is a law. I need notexplain it in detail to you. You know that. If we look at our directexperiences, it will get established. It is our direct experiencethat if Intellect rejects anything, the mind leaves that thought.Direct experience. So mind is not independent - it gets proven. Itacts under control of intellect. It cannot be DOER. Only doersuffers - it is a law !As per VEDANTA, the KARTA has to be INDEPENDENT ALWAYS. Is mindindependent? Does not mind work under commands of Intellect? Theyare inert and tools. They change automatically - I REPEATAUTOMATICALLY - when KARTA changes. Now, Pratapji, tell me where isthe need of running after the mind, training it, refining it, etc.The Karan Nirapeksha Saadhans, like Acceptance, Surrender, Devotion,Prem, Karma Yoga, Bhakti Yoga, Jnana Yoga - they attack and addressthe KARTA, the Jeevatma straight away. Once Jeeva understands, andchanges his mine ness (Which so far was with the world) ,everything changes automatically.Kindly in the interest of all sadhaks ponder over what I have statedabove and let them know your views on the subject. You cando so.Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B--------------------------------Priya SadhaksTulsidasji Maharaj told that bhajan can be done by mind only. Where? Which Doha?Dalmiaji Pls clarify .RamchandraWe are not here to agree or disagree to any specific point of view.We are here to assist each other in our path to God realisation.As far as I am concerned, I can only say that the starting point ofthis journey is the desire to realise God. The duration of thejourney will depend on the intensity of that desire.Basically as per my understanding, Gitaji has shown three paths (Ido not want to go into the merit of this statement). These areGyan Yog (Disicpline of Knowledge); Karma Yog (Discipline of Selfless Service);Bhakti Yog (Discipline of Devotion and Love)These paths are all leading to the same goal. None of these pathscan be said to be incomplete. The only difference is that thesepaths are meant for different people based on their individualnature. All are allowed to choose their own path based on what theythink suits them and see how they are progressing.I do not want people to spend their time on my observations made(not questions raised) in my earlier postings. The simple reason isthat their path seems to be different from the one chosen by me andI do not have any intention in deviating from that path as much asthey are not interested in deviating from their's. I must apologiseto Shri Ramchandra for not obliging him by answering his questions.Once again, my Salutations to all who showered their mercy on me. Ihope they will continue to do so in future as well.A.H.DalmiaRe: Reply to new question from Mahalaksmi DasiJai Shri Krishna,Mahalakshmi Dasi may please note that Krishna confirms in Gita 10:22that amongst sense organs I am mind ï¿½ "Indriyanaam Manaschasmi".Desire is in Jeeva only, soul is desireless. The pure soul becomesJeeva because of the assumed affinity with the body, world etc. Themoment Jeeva leaves this assumed affinity with the body, world etc.it becomes pure soul, which is part of the Paramaatma.Mahalakshmi Dasi has beautifully touched upon the difference betweenpurified desire and material desire. The desires for perishableworldly things (arising due to the assumed affinity with the bodyand world) are known as material desires. They are binding and yieldfruits. However, the purified desires are like roasted seeds ï¿½ whichdo not have any binding power and do not yield any fruits.Narayan NarayanRajendra J Bohra--------------------------Shree Hari-Regarding Vaysji answers Q 1-----Q 10 in general not specific. Aconstant them is the mind is a medium/ mirror/ machine etc.Reasonable arguments have been put forward. (I am thinking aloud hereas it were). Now several things come to mind, first one is that mindappears to be a universal, no mind can be different it simply reflectsthe intellect, ( a computer can serve thousands of users, or manypeople can look at the same mirror, but see different images depending wherethey stand).Now if the mind is a tool of the intellect, as stated. Then, as isknown, certain spiritual souls develop as Vaysji noted, occultpowers. And these powers perceived by that person, one presumes in the mind, butit does not seem to be a function of the intellect. In fact one can see withoutintellectual input,(seeing is not looking).Open eyed mediators can see, but take no involvement. (I think thelatest Sadhaka post is touching on my last thoughts).I hope you understand these are thoughts not arguments, conundrums inmy mind, (do I own that mind hmmm?)I would deeply appreciate any wise council on my conundrums.With Respect and Divine Love,Mike.(Mike Keenor)===========================================================PREVIOUS POSTINGHari OmHere is verse by verse answers to Dalmiaji's queries. He raisedspecific questions against each verse, hence answers are with eachverse only. Later on conclusions will be given.Q 1 - 2:38 . WHERE DO WE FEEL 'SUKH AND DUKH' ?.Ans :- Already explained. Refer Gita 13:20. Self (Jeeva)experiences pleasures and pains. Mind is just a mirror / tool forreflection or medium to self here. Equanimity enters the mind. Godis Equanimous. Self is by very nature Equanimous.Q 2 -3:7 /.3 :37 . WHERE DOES 'KAMANA' RESIDE ?. Ans:- Kaamna (Desire) resides in Karta ï¿½ doer- not in mind. ( In Ego-WhereKarta with affinity of Prakrati resides in Jeeva Form- likings anddislikings reside in Ego) . Karta suffers the results in the form ofpleasures and pains. Kaamna ( desire) can not reside in machinecalled mind. Refer Gita 13:20. Only doer suffers? Is not it?Q 3 - 4: 42 WHERE DOES 'AGAYN' RESIDE.? Ans. Ignorance ( Agyaan)resides in causal body- Ego- where Jeeva is sitting forming anaffinity with Nature. Mind is simply reflecting as a medium. Jeevais knowledgeable or ignorant. Mind can neither be knowledgeable orignorant. It is a machine like a computer or air craft. Mind's jobis to think in accordance with instructions of Intellect. Does notcomputer process commands? Is computer ignorant or knowledgeable?Q 4- 6: 36. EVEN GOD DECLARES THAT THE PERSON WHO DOES NOT HAVECONTROL OVER HIS MIND, WILL NOT BE ABLE TO ACHIEVE ME. ? Ans: Thisverse is in relation to Karan Saapeksha Saadhan viz Dhyaan Yogaonly. We are discussing at present Karan Nirapeksha sadhan. Ifrequired I will observe on it separately. Not now.Q 5 ï¿½ 8 : 5. AT THE TIME OF DEATH HE WHO REMEMBERS ME ?.WHERE DO WEREMEMBER FROM ?. IT IS THE MIND !. Ans: Remembrance at the time ofdeath is possible only when you take Karan Nirapeksha sadhan ofacceptance. Refer also advice of Krishna to Arjuna in this regard in8:7- continuous remembering . Karta (self) will cause entry ofremembrance into mind. Mind is only a medium here ! More discussionswill be there on this when 9:34, and 12:2/8 are discussed. Why inevery mind at the time of death , the remembrance of God does notcome ? Mind is same everywhere. Here Jeeva is of essence. Not theinnocent machine called Mind. According to you who remembers God atthe last moment ? Jeeva or Mind? If mind remembers then who will getliberated?Q 6- 8:14 "ANANYA CHETA SATATAM". GOD ORDERS TO REMEMBER HIM WITHNO DISTRACTIONS. WHERE DO WE REMEMBER FROM ?. IT IS THE MIND !. Ans -Same as above. Mind is only a medium here. A mirror. I will discussthis separately in detail with 9:34 etcQ 7- 13 :21 "PURUSHAH PRAKRITISTHO HI". WE GET ATTACHED TO THE WORLDBY BEING EXTROVERT. THIS NEEDS TO BE CURBED BY MAKING MINDINTROVERT. Ans Both Extrovert and Introvert are positioning of Mind.By being introvert, that PURUSHA which is referred here, doesnotcease to be out of Prakriti. Do you agree that Purusha and Prakritiare separate ? Yes- you must. Then how change of position of mindchanges the position of Purusha ? Purusha ( Jeevatma) has formedaffinity with matter. Jeevatma has to withdraw. Upon withdrawal byPurusha only change in mind by way of Equanimity, by becomingSattva/ Being etc will arise. Many times you in practical lifebecome introvert. Does at that time Purusha ceases to be connectedwith matter?Q 8- 13 :28 "SAMAM PASHYANHI SARVATRA". WE NEED TO SEE GOD IN ALLBEINGS. THIS IS NOT BY OUR EYES BUT BY OUR MIND. Ans- Yeah. But mindthere only reflects the equanimity which has arisen due to change inJeeva. Mind is only a mirror here.Q 9- 14 :25 " MAM CHA YO AVYABHICHRENA". ONE WHO DOES MY UNDILUTEDBHAKTI... HERE AGAIN MIND COMES. Ans- Mind as a mirror shall comeinto picture even when Paramatma Realisation enters the Jeeva oreven when you get liberation with body. Refer my earlier postingBhakti is done by SELF not by mind. NOTE THIS THING CATEGORICALLYTHAT BHAKTI AND SERVICE CAN NEVER BE DONE BY MIND. It is always doneby Self. BHAKTA AND SADHAK ARE ALWAYS UNMANIFEST- BHAAV SHARIRAS. Iwill take up this subject in more detail. All of your new postingissues will get clarified.Whether it is Ramcharitmanas issue, orKapil Bhagwaan reference or Chaitnya Mahaprabhu sayings, or MiraBaai, or Bhooribaiji.THEY ALL ARE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT. Everythingwhich you have written is right, except your conclusions that Bhajanhappens from mind. Wrong. Show me a single reference by them wherethey have said Bhajan is done by mind. Then what SELF does, thenLiberation also should be of body/mind only ï¿½ where does thenJivatma comes int picture? Wrong. Also the last para of yourposting. It is so unnecessary Anyway, I am duty bound to reply.Q 10- 15:5 "NIRMAAN MOHA JIT SANGA DOSHA". WHERE DOES "MAAN ANDMOHA" RESIDE. IT IS THE MIND. Moha ( attachment) resides in Ego-where Jeeva resides ( Para Prakrati and Apara prakrati jointlyreside). Respect is a desire of Jeeva. It again lies in Jeeva only.Q 11- 16 :21 "TRIVDHAM NARAKSEDAM". "KAMA, KRODHA ETC MUST BEOVERCOME. AGAIN THIS IS THE FUNCTION OF MIND. Ans Kaam ( desire)resides in Jeeva. Refer earlier discussion on the subject. Anger isoutcome of non fulfilment of desire. It gives pains to Jeeva. Mindis only a medium/mirror of transferring pain to Jeeva who desired.Balance in next edition.You may ask counter questions with reference to above discussions,however.Jai Shree Krishna.Vyas N BDear SadhaksNamaste. My queries are to A H Dalmia.I hope you are aware that Jeeva is part of Paramatma and has assumedaffinity with the nature as per Holy Gitaji. Self is unchangeableand ONLY part of Paramatma. Prakriti is ever changeable and bothSelf and God are beyond Nature.Mind is part of Prakriti as per Holy Gitaji.Self is part ofParamatma as per Holy Gitaji. I need not give Gita verse nos , oncein your previous posting you have referred so many verses of HolyGitaji.You have quoted from writings of Goswami Tulsidasji Maharaj ,Revered Shri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, stating what these respectableSaints told. But you have concluded that "Bhajan is done by Mind".Please prove that the aforesaid Great Saints said so and if theysaid so , please prove by giving reference of their writings, Dohano and verse no of their books.If they have not said so and if it is only your personal feeling/conclusion then please tell the sadhaks that it is so, and givereasons as to how "doership" vests in mind , which as per HolyGitaji is a "karan" (tool) and is a "jad" ( inert). You must nowprove it.You also referred to Holy and Most respectable Devotees ofParamatma - Goswami Tulsidasji Maharaj and Mira Baai and concludedwith their reference that:-A. Acceptance is made by mind andB Mamata ( mineness) is residing in mindand not in Jeevatma (Chhijjad granthi) which some other sadhaks havestated..Please prove by giving specific references of their works/bhajans asto where they so confirmed. If they have not confirmed anywhere andyour mind has so presumed then tell us that it is so and let usknow as to what kind of mind a child has (or you had when you wereinfant) when, the child accepts some one as his mother and as hisfather.Please also state as to how the mind can make any "mamata" with Godor with Self, when it is part of ever changing Nature and God isbeyond Nature as per Gitaji.Please elaborate as to what you want to communicate when youreferred Respected Bhagwan Shri Kapildevji stating that " Liberationand Bondage" are in mind. Please state Liberation or Bondage ofwhom? Of the mind? Or of some one else? Pls state reasons as to whythen the mind so adored by you should not be thrown into a dust bin,without making any refinements in it - lock , stock and barrel - bythe Jeevatma who governs the ego/intellect/mind/body etc !Please also give reasons as to why mind, intellect, ego, body etcshould not be ignored by Jivaatma (Self) as suggested by somesaadhaks and as to why it is necessary to refine them, as stated inPatanjali Yoga Darshana (definition of Yoga) but not in HolyGitaji. Please state what is more important according to you andwhy? Please state how both Scriptures according to you can be livedwith without any contradictions.You have referred Param Shraddheya Swamiji Shri RamsukhdasjiMaharaj . He stated many times in my personal presence also - HeyNaath Main Apko Bhooloon Nahin. (O Lord , Let me not forget you ). Iagree. But please state from where and from which reference( out ofhis discourses and books) you have drawn the conclusion that thisprayer / this PUKAAR/ this request is from the" mind" and not fromJeevatma as some other Sadhaks have stated.I am awaiting your responses eagerly.With sincere respects and regards to you and all fellow sadhaksRamchandra-Shree Hari-I have been following this debate with great interest, the nature ofthe mind and Self and so on.Now if one meditates and takes the time to still the mind to a pointwhere what lies beneath all the clatter can be sensed. (This is nottheory it can be achieved I am sure by any who is so predisposed tothat way of things). What can happen, (now I attempt to unifyexperience to expression), a sense of separation, also unspeakablelove, also an understanding that all is really perfect, the imperfectis a product of illusion.The Impostor Mind, cannot accept this insight and rationality setsin, "that's not me, thats not me...",But the cat is out of the bag, one has had a glimpse of the truth, itbecomes part of ones awareness.At times Ego will try and dominate, but always that knowing is withone.I think I see a drift in this understanding appearing in this debate,it is pretty involved and not easy to follow. (Thats my weakness).A final point, the classic symbol of two birds, (the one I am mostfamiliar with), drinking at the fountain , one drinks the other lookson , certainly makes sense to me at this point of this life.With Respect and Divine Love,Mike(Mike Keenor)-Jai Shri Krishna,A sadhak must first decide/resolve that he can get liberated !WHY HE CAN GET LIBERATED ?Because he is in fact liberated only ! !He should believe that he can realise Paramatma !WHY HE CAN REALISE PARAMATMA?Because in fact Paramatma is already received by him, ever connectedwith him. He is part of Paramatma only.Sadhak should believe that he can not do anything through body forSELF. Only SELF can help SELF. SELF can not " act" at all !THEN WHAT CAN SELF DO ?SELF can not " DO " but it can "BECOME" - Nishkaam(desireless),Nirmam ( mamata less / minenessless), Nirmal (faultless/vicefree/stainless), Nirahankaar (egoless) .WHY YOU CAN BECOME DESIRELESS/EGOLESS/MINENESSLESS/ FAULTLESS ?Because by form he is always desireless, egoless, mamataless, andfaultless ! He is part of Paramatma. He has developed desires /ego / mineness / faults because of affinity with world only.We can by SELF do Bhajan (devotion) and give Service to the world atlarge (Bhakti Yoga and Karma Yoga respectively)HOW CAN WE DO SERVICE WITHOUT USING BODY ?By becoming " nirmal" / faultfree/ vicefree. That is real service tothe world. That body can not do , only Self can become so ! !HOW CAN YOU DO BHAJAN WITHOUT USING BODY ?By Loving Paramatma. That does not require body. Love ( Prem ) onlySelf can do, because self is part of God. Love arises out ofmineness When self accepts mineness with God, Love is automatic..You can not realise God by mind, intellect, ego and body. Had thatbeen possible then any machine also could have caught Paramatma !Sadhak gets Paramatma by renouncing the shelter of body, mind,intellect etc. We don't need body to realise Paramatma. Only SELF isneeded, WILLING SELF ! !.Narayana NarayanaRajendra Bohra-NEW QUESTION:In regard to posting below, my humble request that Vyasaji give thechapter and number for the following quote (as I am studying thismaterial as attentively as my constitution allows...)"That's why Krsna stated even in Gita that among sense organs I amthe mind".My second question...in regard to posting by Rajendra Bohra, he hasmentioned that in fact, desire is not in the mind, it is in thejeeva. This has always been my understanding, that desire issympton of the soul. So, is this forum suggesting that the soulshould have no desire? If so, why are we desiring to understandthis topic? Please explain purified desire in regard to materialdesire.Sincerely, Mahalaksmi Dasi-Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!This is in reference to Dalmiaji's observations on Mind andsubsequent responses.It appears to me that we may be saying the same thing with differentmeanings of such words as mind, Jeevatma(Jeeva), Self, etc., due tointerpretations of scriptures we may have read or heard ourselves orfrom Saints.Vedanta's teaching, as I understand it, is only for training "mind"or preparing it to receive Truth, whereas Self is ever present andshining, needing nothing. Here mind has to be itself ignorance(or inignorance) for Vedanta to say it. One can only address theignorance. Thus, in this context, Jeevatma and mind can be said asone and the same.Look at our experience: we don't really experience "mind", nor dowe experience "body" in themselves, rather, we only experiencethoughts and sensations in our being conscious-aware of them. Thatis the only real experience! However, In order to communicate, weconceptualize "thoughts" as "mind" and "sensations" as "body".Please see this closely. If one sees this experientially, it is thebiggest proof for oneself of mind's reality.Wrong identity-ignorance as Jeeva can exist only as thoughts (ormind), which is nothing but a sense of separation called "me", andsubsequent ignorance of doership (karta), enjoyership (bhokta) etcetc. So there are not two, mind and thoughts or body and sensations!In fact all are just one: Ignorance of Self manifesting as thoughtsor mind or Jeeva or "limitations-me"! Use of words create their ownindepenent realities which have no experiential reality,nevertheless, have good communication tools. In this sense, mind canbe called tool as Vyasji says.Now ever present Self(Atman) is where thoughts, sense of "me" appearas It is the ultimate ground of all that appear! Brahman in movementis Maya principle; thoughts are ripples on the fundamental unity ofall Beings in Brahman(Upanishadas)! Thus there is One reality, Selfappearing in ignorance as Jeevahood-ego, experienced as mind-stuff(antahkarana-tool). In the entire cosmo, there are no separaterealities. When this insight is contemplated upon hearing from thelips of one's Guru(Upanishadas), Self is realized as the only ONETruth, God and Devotion is natural pouring of heart!While on this pursuit of Knowledge(Gyan), one should acknowledge theunity of such terms from the beginning(it is the Shrawana, Manana,Nididhyasana practice) and not wait to realize it as an end ofSadhana because it propagates the wrong notions! Of course theseterms are, not only good communication tools, but the only tools todescribe the undescribable.So we may be right in saying what we say in the context.Difficulties arise only in communications which is why suchplatforms as this are useful.Thank you all Sadhakas.....Namaskaras....Pratap(Pratap Bhatt)====================================================================Jai Shree Krishna,Desires do not reside in mind. They come in mind -"manogataan" -Gita2:55. Mind is a tool. There can not be any desire in a tool. Isthere any desire in the car to run? Is there any desire in pen towrite? If we presume that desires are existing in mind, then thesorrow arising due to non fulfillment of desire also should be tomind. But sorrow is to the Self (embodied soul - Jeeva). (Gita 13:20)In fact desires are in "Karta", the Jeeva (embodied soul, not thepure Self, the embodied self) who experiences the pains thereof.Mind is not the "doer", hence not the experiencer. Mind is notindependent, it works under intellect. It is a law that Karta (doer)is always independent. Intellect is also not "doer", it also is atool only. Pure Self (Chetan) is also not "doer". Had pure Self beendoer, it would never have been possible to remove "doership". (Gita13:31- na karoti na lipyate - pure self neither does nor getsentangled).The activities happen in nature as a natural phenomena. One whoassumes doership only reaps pleasures / pains. Just as car runs butwe say " I am going/ travelling" - because we have attachedourselves with car. Do you fly or the aircraft flies?In fact in neither the inert ( mind, intellect, body) thereis "doership" (kartitva) and "enjoyer/suffership" ( bhoktritva) northey are in pure Self, Chetan, Atma . They exist in JeevatmaJeevatma - pure self when it exercises its power ofacceptance/affinity with nature becomes Jeevatma. He assumespositioning in Nature, he "assumes" himself to be doer, inspite ofhis not being the "doer"- hence he enjoys/suffers , not an innocentmachine called mind. He is ignorant not mind.Not the pure self. Butthe assumed self. Jeeva liberates not the mind. Mind is asat(unreal). Not the pure self-it is ever liberated.Entire center of attraction therefore is Jeevatma - not inert toolslike mind , not Pure Chetan Atma - but Jeevatma.Hence we have address this Jeevatma only not a machine called mind !In Jeeva, there are two parts. One - pure Self, Atma, exclusive partof God. Two - Prakriti / Nature with which he assumes affinity. Theycombinedly remain and hence the term "Jeeva". All scripturesconcentrate on this creature called Jeeva not innocent machinecalled mind.Narayan NarayanRajendra J Bohra-Hari OmThank you Dalmiaji for really good observations on mind.You have indeed raised very relevant questions which needclarification in a manner as easy as Maharajji told and it may take2/3 postings. Please do not hesitate to raise any questions orcounter questions - it is the very purpose of this esteemed forum.Mind in fact is a unique creation of nature. Nothing can match it.That's why even Krishna stated in Gita that among sense organs I ammind.You have drawn attention to 2:38, 3:7, 3:37, 4:42, 6:36, 8:5, 8:14,9:34, 18:65, 12:2, 12:8, 13:28,14:25, 15:5 and 16:21.- to concludethat Mind is an important Sadhana tool and the teachings of Swamijibecome really easy only when we tackle / control this typicalmachine called Mind.First of all let me clarify that in the body the mind is the mainorgan, everything has to pass through mind, be it conscience orsmriti, or experience or even Paramatma Realisation or reflection oracceptance or devotion or Prem (Love) or Equanimity or even SELF inits pure form etc etc. In many others and rather in each of theabove at least the mind is merely a reflector / a mirror and thatdoes not mean mind has in fact acted. These things enter the mindinvoluntarily and shine "through" the mind.Even Ego, Intellect, Chitta though different from mind can reflectonly "through" mind. Mind is an inert tool, a machine.There are 2 things. One - what mind does, thinking. Two - whatarises automatically in mind. In latter mind is mere reflector.There is no doership there. It has not done anything there exceptreflecting as a mirror. Where else Samata (equanimity) can shineexcept in mind? Where can experience of pain and pleasure getreflected except in mind? It is Jeeva (embodied soul) in factwho "experiences" pleasure and pain, not mind. Jeeva is ignorant notmind. Mind is inert - it cannot experience. Mind is atool /organ /machine. Responsible and real experiencer is Karta(doer) - Jeevatma - who presumes "I am doer" The Doer experiencesthe pains or pleasures. (Gita 13:20) not the mind. For everythingwhich reflects in Mind, the action really is not of mind. What isreal role/action of mind in that thing which it merely reflects as amirror-except reflecting as mirror?.. Where is action of water whenSun reflects there? It is inert, a tool , a machine !Does the mind cease to operate in God realised souls ? No, themirror role continues, SELF there shines in its pure form.. Manyverses which you have referred merely indicate the mirror role ofmind and hence become irrelevant from mind control point of view.In fact the enlightened mind is called "Being" or "Sattva". The mindis born again , "Being" is not born again. The knowers of theTruth , who are free from the mind,are constantly established in aneven position.They move about sportively with the ease of theirstation or state that is Pure Being. ( Yoga Vaashishtha).Did Swamiji not have mind after realisation ? Yes he had, but notmind , Sattva/Being - same mind !!But there are many verses referred by you which indeed must beaddressed fully like 12:8, 12:2, 9:34 etc.I shall deal verse by verse in next posting.Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B-I would like to supplement on the subject on what I wrote yesterdayas follows:Goswami Tulasidas ji Maharaj firmly says"Baru Mathe Ghrit Hoi, Sikta te Baru Tel, Binu Hari Bhajan na BhavTariye, Yah Siddhant Apail"Last three words are very significant and worthy of deeperthought. "This Cardinal Principle is unchangeable". Further it mustbe noted that 'Bhajan' has to happen from Mind.Shri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu equally firmly says"Harernamaive Harernamaive Harernamaive Kevalam, Kalau NastyevaNastyeva Nastyeva Gati Anyatha".Normally in any Kavya any repetition is considered a major defect.But in this place Mahaprabhu has used the same word not two butthree times to impress how important this is. It need not berepeated that 'Harernam' is to be done by Mind.When Goswamiji says "Tulasi Mamta Ram Se" (as said by Rajendrabelow), we need to appreciate where does that Mamata reside. It isin the Mind.Meera Bai used to chant "Mere To Girdhar Gopal, Doosro Na Koi".Where does one accept any relationship. It is the Mind.Shri Kapil Bhagwan says"Chetah Khalvasya Bandhaya Muktaye Chatmano Matam, Guneshu SaktamBandhaya Ratam Va Punsi Muktaye".The main reason for 'Bandhan and Moksha' is the mind. If it isattached to the world, it results in rebirth and if it starts lovingGod it results in Moksha. Hence the importance of Mind"Yoga" means to get attached to God. The very definition of Yogais "Chitta Vritti Nirodhah". Again the attack is on Mind.In Gyan Yoga, we do not start with "Aham Brahmosmi". This is not thefirst but the last step. Here we start from"Pragyanam Brahma". After meditating on this principle, we move onto "Ayam Atma Brahma". Having reached that stage, we areadvised "Tat Twam Asi". Again the sadhak goes back to his meditationand realises this truth. Then and then only he returns to say "AhamBrahmosmi". So we see that we do not start by saying I am the God.When we meditate on "Pragyanam Brahma", we are infact training theMind.Swamiji Maharaj used to repeat virtually in all his pravachans "HeyNath Main Apko Na Bhulun". Where does remembering and forgettingtake place. It is the Mind.Even in our scriptures we find the words "Gyanottar Bhakti". Wenever find the words "Bhaktottar Gyan". This means that even when weRealise through the Gyan Yog, there is still something left and thatis Bhakti. Bhakti in real terms means 'Prem' (Love for God). Lovecan happen only in the heart and the Adhyatmik Heart is Mind.I remember, once I had the chance to meet a great saintcalled 'Bhoori Bai'. She used to reside in Natha Dwara. I requestedher to guide me in the path of Realisation. I asked her "what shoudI do to achieve that goal". To my surprise she said "kucch nahinkarna". I had full faith in her words. Hence there was no way, Icould take it lightly. I meditated on this answer in the night andthe next morning I again went to her lotus feet and requested her toelaborate as to what she meant. She said "in any case what do youdo". This meant clearly that do what you do but without 'KartritvaAbhiman'. This then leads us to the fact that we are not the body.This needs to take roots in our Mind. And for that we need to trainour Mind.In the end I would only like to re-iterate that it is easy to justread a scripture or hear a saint and give discourses. But it willbecome much more meaningful, if we spend time in translating thesame in our life and then see if we are speaking from the level of abeginner (Sadhak). Without that, there is all the possibility thatwe miss out on what the Sadhak really needs.A.H.Dalmia-My understanding is that there cannot be wrong in any wordswhosoever uttered in whatsoever manner. The very Bramhan makes everysyllable, every sound and every atom to their perfection as such. Inthat case, how can anything built by these basic building blocks canbe NOT perfect?!Also, however detailed one can express oneself, all the expressionsremain a tip of the iceberg, the experience beneath the expressionsremaining infinitely concealed. Thus, every expression in this worldhas its own legitimacy in terms of the experience that backs it up.Following is my opinion on finding wrong in somebody's utterances:1. Finding something wrong or objectionable in some body else'sutterances is utterly erroneous in itself since nobody can accesssomebody else's iceberg of experience and hence get disqualifiedautomatically.2. It is useless to find wrong and objectionable aspects insomebody's writings as it does not bring any new understanding ï¿½ onewho finds wrong is sticking to what he already "knows" ï¿½ retainingone's ignorance intact.3. It is dangerous to make an attempt to find errors in othersbecause the very attempt is to justify one's own errors and even toconceal the same.Therefore, if at all I can, I can put forward my views and opinionsfor others benefit (if any) in more detail on the subject inresponse to Vyasji's scholarly writings.My understanding is that The Upanishad prevails everywhere ineverything at all the times transcending all the barriers of spaceand time. If one does not see that, it is the students fault. Thenit is the student's responsibility to correct himeself. For that heneeds to equip himself within with Shraddhaa (the trishul of tapa,dama and karma) and receiving genuine help from the environment(vedas) such as the great virtual ashram we have with so many greatsouls pouring their genuine thoughts and experiences for everyone'sbenefits. I am so blessed to be one in this Homa (and Home!).I will make my best attempt to understand from Vyasji's writings formy benefit and express my views as I can.Respects.Naga Narayana.Namasthe everyone. Many devotees have responded this question andthis is my humble opinon for the question ""How does one who is notable to immediately feel the Lord's presence rise to that level?What is the path of attaining what some individuals have withouteffort, and how is it that they have this?"The simplest path i feel is: just see each and every beings as yourown and in each and every action that we do, do not have anyexpectation at all for the output (Gita 3rd chapter, karma yoga) andsurrender that output (whatever it maybe) to that Supreme.Regards,Bharathi====================================================================PREVIOUS POSTINGJai Shree KrishnaSwamiji's last speech - translated by Vyasji for benefits of Sadhaks-in fact is the most important write up which humanity for aeons willcherish.Minimum words-infinite result!He in fact in this speech took the essence of every. major Yogadescribed in Gita including Dhyaan Yoga(silence/desirelessness justbefore realisation- Gita 6:24/25 ), Karma Yoga(Duty/equanimity),Bhakti Yoga ( Surrender) and Jnana Yoga (Nothing is mine,I don'tneed anything, I don't do anything)- to prove that in the end allyogas lead to same result !Step one can only be "acceptance" - TULSI MAMTA RAAM SE ! ( Minenesswith Paramatma only) . Mirabai Said- Mere to Girdhar Gopal, DoosaroNa Koi. (Only Paramatma is Mine, nobody else is mine).Swamiji in fact never contradicted any saying of any Scripture. Heproved every Scripture right!Here the process emanating out of Swamiji's last speech is aguaranteed process. It is guaranteed by God because it meets withalmost every concluding verse of Gitaji spoken by Lord Krishna withreference to God realisation- be it Verse2:38, 2:45, 2:48, 2:71 or18:66, 6:20, 6:24, 6:25, 6:3, 9:31, 12:12,18:66 and many manyothers .!It is guaranteed further by a remark of Lord Krishna to Arjuna inGitaji. He stated in in 9;31 - Kaunteya pratijanihi na me bhaktahpranshyati - O Arjuna, you take the vow that my devotee shall neverfall.( Or proved wrong)Why did Lord ask Arjuna to swear? Why He Himself did not swear/ takethe vow? Answer is that God can at any point of time, when it comesto His devotees, change/ back out from his "pratigyaa"(vow/promise/swearing)- He doesn't mind then being called as "Ranchhod" ( runner from war front) or " Chor" ( thief) or Vaaman (dwarf ), also. After all - Bhakta mere Mukut Mani ( My devotees arejewel of my crown). He in fact vowed before He became driver ofArjuna's Ratha (chariot) in Mahabharat War that " I shall not liftweapon in Mahabharata War" . But when his devotee , Bhisma Pitamah,also vowed that- I shall make Krishna lift weapon in the MahabharatWar- Krishna backed out from His vow, lifted the weapon and therebyensured that the vow of His devotee, Bhisma, prevailed - andnot His !!Here in this speech not one but at least three confirmed devotees ofLord Krishna are involved - Mira Baai, Swamiji and GoswamiTulsidasji Maharaj. (In fact many more) On the top of it Krishna'sdivine voice itself is standing authenticated in this speech ofSwamiji- in more than one ways..We need only to believe, to accept!Narayan NarayanRajendra J Bohra-------------------------------Shree Hari-I think Rajendraji understood the my point I made, (in my clumsy way)regarding GOD pointing a Sadhak to the easiest way to Realization, asVyasji pointed out there a many approaches.The mention of Japa, and also the deep silent approach, along withB.G. Chapter 6 as an offering to Paul.It appears intellect can see Paramatma in all, even by deepthought it can be reasoned, but it seems to actually Know, (torealize) is entirely a different thing.Equanimity and Apathea describe the same state, (an expression usedby western mystics).I have been conservative, in my comments, (not so much my questions),I really desire not to offend. Vyasji has been attempting to draw mefrom my shell, to which I have retreated. Having always been a deepthinker on things spiritual, and drawn to meditation over manyyears. (I had no particular fixed belief). I thank you for extendingyourself and making it possible to share my thoguhts. With Respectand Divine Love.Mike(Mike Keenor)-Pranams. Thanks for circulating Swamiji's last speech, which is verprofound and highl motivating.G.Vaidanathan-Stilling of Mind (Manah) with help of Buddhi (intellect) in removalof impurity of thoughts is Yoga. But this practice of mind controlis not easy and yet easily achievable. Manah (mind) is like gaswhich after seeing something new, it gets desire of it. If it doesnot see / know, desires do not come. Thus, let mind be free to seeand know but not stick to any of these, and so that it can returneasily through a hole to inner self.K G Misra-I greatly appreciate the explanations given by Shri Vyasji by takingso much pain. I also agree with what he says.I wish to draw attention of sadhaks to the following where myunderstanding and experience is that mind is of great importance inonce sadhana:Chapter 2 Verse 38 "Sukh dukhe same kritva". Where do we feel 'Sukhand Dukh'.Chapter 3 Verse 7 "Yastvindriyani manasa". Chapter 3 Verse 37 "Kamaaisha krodh aisha". Where does 'Kamana' reside.Chapter 4 Verse 42 "Tasmat agyan sambhutam" Where does 'Agayn'reside.Chapter 6 Verse 36 "Asayyatatmana yogo dushprap'. Even God declaresthat the person who does not have control over his mind, will not beable to achieve me.Chapter 8 Verse 5 "Anta kale cha mameva smaran". At the time ofdeath he who remembers me...Where do we remember from. It is themind.Chapter 8 Verse 14 "Ananya cheta satatam". God orders to rememberhim with no distractions. Where do we remember from. It is the mind.Chapter 9 Verse 34 "Manmana bhava". God orders that we should givehim our mind. Please note that this is the only Verse that isrepeated in the whole of Gitaji (Repeated in Chapter 18 Verse 65).This shows how much importance God has given to this.Chapter 12 Verse 2 "Mayyaveshya mano ye mam". God orders toconcentrate the mind (Ekagra) in Him.Chapter 12 Verse 8 "Mayyeva mana adhatsva". God orders to keep mindattached to Him.Chapter 13 Verse 21 "Purushah prakritistho hi". We get attached tothe world by being extrovert. This needs to be curbed by making mindintrovert.Chapter 13 Verse 28 "Samam pashyanhi sarvatra". We need to see Godin all beings. This is not by our eyes but by our mind.Chapter 14 Verse 25 "..... Mam cha yo avyabhichrena". One who doesmy undiluted Bhakti... Here again mind comes.Chapter 15 Verse 5 "Nirmaan moha jit sanga dosha". Where does "Maanand Moha" reside. It is the mind.Chapter 16 Verse 21 "trivdham naraksedam". "Kama, krodha etc must beovercome. Again this is the function of mind.Finally in Gitaji (Chapter 7 Verse 19) God has expressed that aftermany rebirths, when finally the sadhak realises me, such sadhaks arerare.I would also like to draw attention of Sadhaks to Shrimad Bhagwat.In Skada 3 Chapter 25 Verses 15 to 20, Kapil Bhagwan tells hismother how to achieve God. Here again he asserts 'Chetah khalasyabandhaya" mind is the main reason for 'Bandhan and Moksha'.Begging for Shri Vyasji's forgiveness, I have tried to pick upverses at random from almost all Chapters of Gitaji to impress thatMIND in perhaps the most important aspect in SADHANA.Now let me clarify why I agree with Shri Vyasji. Once we have beenable to establish firmly in our "Self" that I am neither the Bodynor the Mind nor the Intellect, then everything that Shri Vyasji hassaid falls in place. But to reach that stage, we have to cross theother barriers created by the mind.Also, when God himself declares "Sa Mahatma sudurlabhah", how can wesay that he can be achieved instantly. I do accept that Maharajjiused to frequently say "Bhagwan mil jayen abhi abhi". However, Idid not get an answer.Once again begging for forgiveness from all whom I may have offendedby differing with them.A.H.Dalmia-Hari OmWho can say exactly as to how the last stage of God Realisation iscrossed ? Only a God Realised Mahatma ! Who else ? On 30th June,2005, barely 3 days before his death, Swamiji delivered his lastspeech at Swaragashram, Rishikesh ï¿½. and what a speech it was !Coming from a "God Realised" Mahatma, the speech is direct, crisp,brief and totally focussed. His body had become too weak and hencehe used minimum words. But each & every word was an ocean.Presently to Dear Sadhaks, the "Last Speech of the Genius ï¿½ SwamijiShri Ramsukhdasji Maharaj "."There is one thing which is very good, very simple and very easy.And that is ï¿½ Do not keep any desires. Neither of God, nor of Soul,nor of World, nor of Liberation, nor of Kalyaan ï¿½ don't keep anydesires and become silent. Become peaceful. Reason being that Godis existing everywhere in a peaceful, silent mode. He is presenteverywhere automatically and naturally. If no desires remain inyou, no expectations remain in you ï¿½ you get God immediately, youget fulfillment, you get completeness ï¿½ immediately.It is the experience of each one of us, that some desires getfulfilled and some desires do not get fulfilled. It is not a law orrule that all of our desires will be fulfilled. To fulfill desiresis not in our control. But the relinquishment (tyaag) of thedesires is completely under our control. When there is no wish ordesires existing, you shall be automatically and naturallypositioned in God. You will get "God Realisation" instantly.Nothing to desire, nothing to do, nowhere to go, nowhere to come,no practice. That is all. In this itself all things are over.The "Bondage" to the world arose only because we desired. Themoment we leave desires, we get positioned into God ï¿½ automatically & naturally.Remain impartial in every work. Neither like nor dislike doing anywork."TULSI MAMTA RAM SO; SAMATA SAB SANSAR ! RAAG NA ROSH NA DOSHDUKH; DAAS BHAYE BHAV PAAR !! (Dohavali ï¿½ 94)"(Says Goswami Tulsidas ï¿½ By "mineness" only with God and byonly "Equanimity" with the world; with no attachment (liking),aversion (disliking), fault finding and sorrow, the surrendered(Daas) crosses the ocean of worldly existence).There is "activity" and "matter". Both "matter" and "activity" arecombinedly called "Nature" (Prakrati). By disconnecting bothwith "matter" and "activity", get yourself dependent upon one God.Surrender yourself to the God ï¿½. And that is all is needed. Thenyou are naturally & automatically positioned into God.A woman lost her child in the dream. She became very anxious,worried and restless. When she got up from the sleep, she found herchild peacefully sleeping beside her, meaning thereby that whereveryou are, the God is completely present there itself. Wherever youare, become silent there itself.Q (By a Listener) : Sir, you told yesterday that let there be nodesire. Now which one is more beneficial ï¿½ to be desireless or tobecome silent ?Swamiji ï¿½ Accept that "I am of the God, God is mine, I am not of anybody else and no one else is mine". To become "desireless" and tobecome "silent" ï¿½ both things are one and the same only. You don'thave to desire for anything ï¿½ neither of worldly "bhogs", nor ofLiberation, nor of Divine Love (Prem), nor of devotion (Bhakti) norof anything else.Q (By a Listener) : I have not to desire for anything. But if Ihave to work, then ?Swamiji : Do your work whole heartedly. Do your work 24 hours aday ï¿½ but do not keep any desires within you. Understand this thingproperly. Serve others, remove pains / sorrows of others but do notdesire anything in return. Do service to others and become silentin the end. If you are in employment, take your salary, but do notdesire for it.The essence is that wherever you are, the God is there itself. Ifyou do not have any desires then your positioning shall be in God.When everything is God only ï¿½ then we have to desire for what ? Wehave desire for the world, therefore our positioning is in theworld. When there is no desire, we remain positioned in the God."In the next Article I shall elaborate on this further.Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B---Jai Shree Krishna,Important thing to note between these two sadhans viz KaranNirapeksha Sadhan and Karan Sapeksha Sadhan is that ultimately theGod Realisation comes to you from only Nirapeksha Sadhan ,irrespective of your doing saadhna (striving) through SaapekshaSaadhans. Reason is that you can not realise Him by the aid ofnature, or matter- IT IS A LAW. . You can realise Him only byrenouncing the nature.For example, in Dhyaan Yoga ( Meditation) ï¿½ which is a KaranSapeksha Sadhan - due to long time practice ( abhyaas) and Vairagya( dispassion) and by again and again forcing the mind to turntowards God i.e. to get attuned with God, the mind becomestranquil/disinterested/quite. Because on one hand, there is nodesire of world left in mind, and on other hand being inert, itcannot reach/receive/grasp Paramatma. Mind then has no choice but toget "upraam" , disinterested and become "equanimous". The momentmind becomes so , saadhak gets disconnected from mind/matter/natureand realises the God by SELF (Gita 6:20) .But , for example in Karma Yoga- which is Karan Nirapeksha Sadhan -, a Sadhak right from beginning assumes relationship with theworld only for serving the world , for giving , not taking anythingfrom world -. He becomes desireless very fast ï¿½ by doing duty only.As soon as he becomes desireless , he gets Equanimity. The momentmind becomes Equanimous , saadhak gets disconnected from matterand realises God by SELFSimilarly in Bhakti Yoga ï¿½ a Sadhak right from beginning assumesrelationship with only God and nothing else- and thus he becomesdesireless even faster- by just seeing everything happening as God'sWill . He then is given Equanimity by God Himself ! God startstaking all of his responsibilities, the moment He accepts hisrelationship with God and renounces his relationship with world.That is how the simple also becomes easy !.Narayan NarayanRajendra J Bohra> ==============================================================Shree HariRam RamDear Sadhaks,At this time, there will be no new subjects / questions introduceduntil after 23rd August, to allow sadhaks time to review the entirestring of deliberations on this very important spiritualdiscipline. Sadhaks are only taking questions / doubts / issues /inquiry / clarification / disagreement etc. on the material coveredon this subject.In your posting, please include first the statement made by theSadhak "As is" in these deliberations and below it, please includeyour comments regarding your doubts, disagreement, additionalquestions you have etc. pertaining to what the sadhak has stated. Ifthere are disagreement, please state the source of scripture andverse reference that supports your theory / understanding etc.Please kindly stay away from generalized statements, opinions, andfeelings.This will be an invaluable use of every sadhak's time, in thisspiritual journey. Also recommended reading are the links below onthe same subject in past daily sadhak messages. Questions / issuesrelated to anything in these daily messages will also be taken atthis time.sadhaka/message/1349sadhaka/message/1375sadhaka/message/1416sadhaka/message/1434sadhaka/message/1670sadhaka/message/1721sadhaka/message/1934sadhaka/message/2030sadhaka/message/1236We look forward to your sincere study of the material.From Gita Talk ModeratorsRam RamQuestion: How does one who is not able to immediately feel theLord's presence rise to that level? What is the path of attainingwhat some individuals have without effort, and how is it that theyhave this? many thanks, Mahalaksmi Dasi---New PostingHari OmThere are four main differences between Karan Saapeksha (Disciplines aided byinner faculties - Mind/Body / Intellect etc) and Karan NirapekshaMethods ofParamatma Realisation.1. Assistance of matter, (body,senses,mind etc) has to be taken inSapekshaMethod, while no such assistance is necessary , in the NirapekshaMethod,instead the assumed relationship with matter, is to be sundered orbroken up.2 There is, creation of new state of mind in the Sapeksha Method,but inNirapeksha Method there is realisation after breach with all statesof mind.3 In Sapeksha Methods, there may be an acquisition of occult powers(siddhis),but in Nirapeksha Methods there is direct and intuitive experienceof Reality,on severance of relationship with matter.4 God Realisation in the Sapeksha Method is NEVER iMMEDIATE , but inNirapekshaMethod God Realisation is IMMEDIATE , as soon as a breach withmatter iscomplete, either by surrendering to Him, or on being established inthe Self.The Basis of Sapeksha Method is - If the mind gets tuned to God, itis alright.But if it is not so tuned, then nothing happens.The Basis of Nirapeksha Method is- Whether or not,mind is attuned toGod,it doesnot matter; but one's SELF should be attached to God. Here there isdirectrelationship of Self with God,with a total breach of ties, with themindintellect complex. Here the prime factors are conscience ( viveka)and believing(bhava) !Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B--------------------------------New Posting-Shree Hari-I had actually written a response to Pauls comment, but I slept onit, I wanted to focus on Mahalaksmi Dasi comments/query and I am gladI did, I will insert my new thoughts in brackets.A Benediction, (who was a mystic), made a wise comment, "you cannotdefeat the Ego, with the Ego".He also said, "simple is not always easy".Thus if you have a burning desire for the Beloved, believe that Hethat is at the Alter of your heart, will guide you. The easiest wayfor you will be truly revealed. (When the student is ready themaster will arrive).[ It is clear to me that you truly love theLord, he is you Beloved, you are reaching out to him with all yourdevotions, if you cannot find him in your Heart, you are notlooking , He is there He cannot not be there, dwell on this!]I mentioned with regards to Devotion B.G. 12.Now with regards to Meditation, I read chapter 6 in The Gita. To meit was the most wonderful expression on the subject that I have everread. Somethings touch ones soul, it did mine. I have seen Japamentioned by Sadhaks in various threads, I am familiar with thepractice, albeit the silent form, I knew it as the way of themantra. The power of it is that it brings the mind into a singlefocus, the sacred mantra. Thus meaning surrender to the mantra,and finally surrender the mantra.That final surrender of course is to GOD.Resorting to metaphors. Imagine one is at sea at night in a terriblestorm, the boat seems to be tearing apart under the strain of thestorm, your heart is full of fear, but you keep your eye on the lighthouse, because by means of its guidance lies your refuge, you libertyfrom the chaos. The single point is so important when one goes theway of meditation. (I say this with sincerity). Refer B.G. 6. 11-12.I hasten to add still deep silence may be achievable by some, withoutany recourse to anything else, such souls are truly blessed.A final point, if one tries to understand something, not in a logicalway, but, (this is hard for me to explain), but by means of theDivine, in very deep silence, then ones sense of reality can change.One has to take responsibility for this newly acquired reality, neverto be abandoned. The recent comments by brother Vyas were almostbrutal in their simplicity, how absolutely true they are.With Respect and Divine Love,Mike(Mike Keenor)-Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!Very insightful discussions taken place on the question:'How does one who is not able to immediately feel the Lord'spresence rise tothat level' as lead by Vyasji.I may echo them in words of my understanding.The one approach that has helped me is by coming in contact withTruth of"oneself" by direct experience bypassing the senses and mind and isconsistentwith Shankara's Aparokshanubhuti! This is to be done with lot ofdevotion andnot just intellectual exercise out of curiosity. It will make onefeel Lord'spresence immediately, provided one longs for Truth, same as Lord andis ready togive up his life if needed.How can one bypass mind, right?Burn with the desire "help me Lord to find out the mystery of "me"and "You, Iam not going to rest until I do". This desire is impersonal becauseif it issincere, it is coming from Lord Himself who wants to be discoveredthrough theapparant sadhaka! Lord Himself has identified with limitations ofbody-mindorganism of Sadhaka playing hide and seek leela, and yet remainingto bediscovered spontaneously! Impersonal desires get fulfilled!Personal desires indicate craving for objects as they come fromassumedseparation from Lord.This desire will take one inward beyond mind because mind's answerabout God'spresence will not be found satisfactory anymore. Until now God wasan image inthe mind based on everything one is told by others, read inscriptures and/orheard from saints. This image is seen as consisting of organisedthoughtsarising in Awareness due to sustained inward pull toward what liesbeyond. WhenAwareness is aware of Itself, there is a glimpse of Blissfulnesswithout anyobjectivity limting it. This is one's true nature or Lord's presencewithin,Pure Subjectivity(not Subject)!Once the Sadhak tastes it, every object of the world will lead himto thePresence within. Mind will cooperate and drown in Devotion!Sadhaka will not remain individual anymore, rather one withEverything arisingin pure Unconditioned, UndividedAwareness(Consciousness-Existence-Absolute-Brahman).Sadhana continues on its own till what seems to take time only frommind's pointof view, to merger in Absolute!Namaskaras..Pratap===================================================================Hari OmThanks to all Sadhaks for patient observation of my, RajendrajiBohra's and Meera Dassji's summarisations regarding The DisciplineOf Actionlessness (Karan Nirapeksha Saadhan). Now it is time foropen and frank discussions, question and answer sessions. Allsadhaks may now come up with their specific queries. Queriesreceived so far are predominantly insisting for "practice" andslowness , step by stepness involved in Paramatma Realisation andstress that Purification of Antahkarana (Mind, Intellect, Ego etc.)is very essential. Refer even fresh queries of Krishna Gopal,Golianjaneyulu, and even Paul Pooniah. It is understandable. We allare accustomed of achieving results in this world only by actions,practice, etc , therefore we all believe that by only karmas oractions even Paramatma Realisation will take place. That however isnot a correct assumption.For those Sadhaks who have generally observed like Paul Pooniah (Irequest Mike also to respond to him) the answer is that In fact Godis everywhere and therefore He is here also. We don't have to goanywhere to search for Him. He is at all times, therefore he is nowalso. We don't have to wait for a future time.He is in everybody, so He is in us also So there is no need to makeany efforts by us. He is the kindest..So we will not have to bedejected. He belongs to everybody therefore He is ours also.There will be automatic Love (Prem) for Him. He is all powerfu ,therefore we need not be fearful. He is unique/second to none,therefore we don't have to recognise Him / describe Him.Now what is needed ? He is present, Self is present ï¿½ where is thedelay? Our desire is needed ! Our correct acceptance is needed !Our willingness is needed ! Our looking at Him is needed ! Our mereglance at His presence right inside us is needed ! (Did not Mikeobserve ï¿½ go within ? ) That is all is needed ! In accepting ï¿½ O GodI am yours ï¿½ what do we need ? Any way kindly keep reading variouspostings and I am sure we will change our view point. Keep observingalso. Tell me with the above narration, can there be a simpler thingto do ? (Did not Mike also say so ? ) .For those Sadhaks who have supported their arguments by referingGita 6:25 and Patanjali Yoga Darshana and have insisted fordispassion / step by step slow process / need for purification ofAntahkarana /need for quietening the mind etc,- let me state that inGita AT LEAST 25 different methods of Paramatma Realisation havebeen described and explained by Lord Krishna for the benefit ofHumanity at large. Each method has got its own characteristics, ownspecific process, own requirement of time, own way of achieving, ownindividuality ! ! ! Verse 6:25 is not applicable to all the methodsof Realisation - it is applicable to only Dhyaan Yoga. (Meditation).The statement in a response/query that - "There is no other way ofQuietening of Mind" is neither correct nor of any importance toSelf ( Embodied Soul) who can at any point out of time can accept orrevise his existing acceptance/assumption to not only - MERE TOGIRDHAR GOPAL but also to DOOSARO NA KOI ! ! ! That is a simple anddirect power of YOU - the SELF- the embodied JEEVA ! It turns -indeed- the world upside down ! ! !How does it matter if mind is quite or fickle like a monkey ? ( Whatdo you say Mike ? )These AT LEAST 25 or more methods are broadly grouped "power wise"into three Yogas,- Jnana Yoga, Bhakti Yoga and Karma Yoga. Undereach of these three yogas there are many "independent individualmethods". Similarly from style/process wise, these ParamatmaRealisation methods have been grouped under two broad parts. Thosemethods which require aid of body/mind etc. are called "KaranSapeksha" Methods. Those methods which do not require any aid frombody/mind/intellect etc. instead require only SELF are called "KaranNirapeksha" Method. Under each of these two broad categories againthere are many "independent individual methods" We are at themoment discussing one or two of such Karan Nirapeksha Methods. Whilereference of Gita 6 : 24 is pursuant to one of the Karan SapekshaMethod viz Dhyaan Yoga (Meditation). Need for Purification ofAntahkarana, quietening of Mind , step by step slow process etc isneeded in that particular Sapeksha Saadhans AND NOT IN in NirapekshaSaadhans. In Nirapeksha sadhans the time required is much muchlesser. If you have intense desire, then time requiredis "KSHIPRAM" ï¿½ less than even one second ! In Dhyaan Yoga referredby Krishna Gopalji etc the time required may be even ages and ages !There you can become " Yoga Bhrashta" (fallen from effort) also.SUCH IS NOT THE CASE IN SAADHAN WHICH IS UNDER DISCUSSION. Hencereference of 6 : 24 here is wholly irrelevant.We shall elaborately discuss this subject in more detail in the nextposting . For the time being Saadhaks may note that in Gitajivarious Karan Sapeksha Sadhans - AT LEAST 16 or more differentmethods ï¿½ have in described in verses ï¿½ 4:25 to 30 ( 13 methods inall), 4:34, 6:10 to 28 ( Dhyaan Yoga), 8: 8 to 13, 15 : 11 etc. ,Similarly Karan Nirapeksha Saadhans - at least 10 or more differentmethods - have been described in Gitaji verses - 2:48, 2:52, 2:55,2;71, 3:17, 4:38, 5:12, 6:5, 8:14, 9: 26 to 28, 9 :30/31, 9:34,12:6/7, 12 ;8,, 12:9 to 12 :12 ( 4 methods), 18:62, 18:66 and 18 :73.There is a lot of difference therefore in time, process,independence, requirements in each of the aforesaid AT LEAST 25methods of Paramatma Realisation. Hence no individual one verse isalways applicable to all the methods.Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B==================================================================Hari Om3 articles have been posted on this Discipline of Actionlessness.Conclusion easily is that SELF is at the top of pyramid. It isconnected with the world - entire world through assumed affinity withEgo.SELF by way of acceptance / resolution generates the commands to Ego.From Ego onwards there is regime of world/nature only. Ego toIntellect to Mind to Sense Organs ( and to Organs of action) tosubject matters of sense organs.Body is a machine (inert) only- an automatic machine. This body isgoverned by Ego.Ego is governed by SELF.When SELF changes by change in acceptance - Ego ( Aham ) changes andentire operation of body changes.Since body is an automatic machine - everything changes INSTANTLY themoment you (SELF) change acceptance / assumption.How simple ! How practical ! !What time does it take to change assumption/acceptance from " I am ofthe world , world is mine, God also mine " to " Only God is mine,nothing else is mine" ?Not even a second - instant!With that your life changes!Jai Shree Krishna.Vyas N B-------------------------------Jai Shri KrishnaThe conclusion of this Discipline is that Self is connected with theworld through Ego which governs the body.When Self connects with Ego in fact Self is connecting with entireBody and with entire world/ nature.If you cut connection of Self with Ego - then disconnection withworld takesplace-in its entirety.Upon "disconnection with world" - Self in its pure form only remainsbehind along with Paramatma ( God )..Remain Impartial / Equi-poised / Equanimous in your work always.Neither like (Raag) nor dislike (Dvesha) anything. That is possibleonly when you do your "Duty" .Duty your body automatically does if you ( self) "become" of God andrenounce assumed affinity with world.When you do so you become "Ego-less"ï¿½ because Ego merely consistsof "me"ï¿½ & "mine" on one hand as representative of "SELF" and"likings" & "dislikings" on other hand as representative of theworld.That is all "Ego" is made of.So far your " Me" is Body-which is part of world. "Mine" isBody /Ego /World /car / house/ wife etc .Liking and Dislikings arefor worldly things.Hence as of today everything in your ego is World only.Change it now.Accept "Me" to be the SELF-part of God ; and "Mine" to be only theGod and and nobody/nothing elseMERE TO GIRDHAR GOPAL, DOOSARO NA KOIOnly God is mine, nothing else is mine.So "Me" is God. "Mine" is God."Likings & Dislikings" then get replaced by "Equanimity"ï¿½-automatically - with the above acceptance.God is always positioned in Equanimity. Another name of Equanimityis God.So in your Ego only God is there !Where is individual "Ego" now ? Gone for ever !Where is "I" now ? Who are you now ?I am God - Aham Brahmasmi !What a gift Gitaji and Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj has given to theworld ! !Narayan NarayanRajendra J BohraTHE MAGIC OPERATION OF DISCIPLINE OF ACTIONLESSNESSWhen Lord Krishna stated in Gita 9:30/31 - "kshipram bhavatiDharamatma". -(meaning that one who has rightly resolved/accepted -he instantly(kshipram) becomes sinless/stainless and pious soul- a Saint)-the Lord in fact advocated the power of acceptance and Discipline ofActionlessness only.Here in fact Lord used these words of instantly becoming virtuouswith reference to" a most sinful among all the sinners" person!Instantly one becomes virtuous upon acceptance because basically weare part of Paramatma only- because we are basically stainless only.We become sinners only because of our affinity with the world, whichin fact is only a transitory period of life for sinner and all of us.As soon as we change our EGO and become of Paramatma , our affinitywith the world is wiped out. In case , we start hating sins andresolve/accept that we have to adore Paramatma only, we caninstantly become virtuous ( Dharamatma). In " EGO" where there isdesire for the world , there is inclination to Paramatma also.If this inclination to Him is strengthened - desire for the world iswiped out and God Realisation takes no time !Consider the following to understand as to how realisation takes notime.Once you change your acceptance/assumption from existing " I am ofthe World" to " I am of God, only God is mine, nothing else ismine" -which change of assumption can take place in an instant- your roleends then and there.THEN your body takes charge AUTOMATICALLY.You remain actionless throughout - after change in acceptance.Your body is an automatic machine like computer ( computer needs acommand only) Your body does not need SELF thereafter and it keepsdoing Karma suo motto strictly in accordance with your acceptance. Sofar the body was suo motto thinking about the world only because youhad assumed that " I am of the world" - so long as you don't changeyour assumption you always have problems of "not able toconcentrate" at the time of meditating/ naam japa etc.- Because ofworldly thoughts haunting your mind- arising suo motto andautomatically- uncontrollably ! !When you change your assumption to. " I am of God " your bodystarts functioning AUTOMATICALLY in strict accordance with yourchanged acceptance and suo motto starts doing Duty only and yourmind rapidly moves towards Equanimity- which in fact is yournatural state only. It stops taking interest in the world ,because "SELF" has changed and gets withdrawn from the world- hencemind also withdraws and becomes "equanimous" ! !Your intellect rapidly/ instantly stablises and your mind becomesthoughtfree very fast.Thus your role ends the moment you have correctlyassumed/resolved/accepted.It is precisely therefore Krishna said - " He should be considered aSaint for he has rightly resolved".This is the magic of actionlessness ! !Hari OmTHE MAGIC OF EQUANIMITY"Eqanimity" is an actionless process and it enters the mind of asadhak. The last write up explained how AUTOMATICALLY ANDEFFORTLESSLY it enters the mind upon acceptance. Here is a write upwhich will prove the automaticness, the rapidity and theactionlessness involved in Paramatma Realisation by Equanimity andnext write up will similarly prove "YOUR BEING WITH PARAMATMA "effortlessly by resorting to Equanimity. Readers are welcome toobserve reg authentication of process by Gitaji, and otherscriptures, reg rapidness (instantness)and reg actionlessnessinvolved in the process. Serious Sadhaks may also take print outs andread again and again till the concept sinks in their mind. Then askQuestions. The question and answer session will then take divineshape. The best way to read this summary of writings of Swamiji - isto put yourself into an Equaminous /impartial zone, without any biasfor whatever you have so far understood/learnt/believed. Read mypresentations as a challenge to your mental equipment. Then MrConscience will take over your mind and you will smoothly understandthe topic./actionlessness involved therein and easiness/quickness ofthe path. Then you will understand why Krishna used "KSHIPRAM" wordin Gita 9:31. Basis of this Aricle is Gita 2:71.Where does God reside ? The correct answer is ï¿½..in "Equanimity" ! We all want peace & happiness. We all areseeking peace & happiness for millions & millions of years. We arecoming & going, taking birth & dying in this world from timeimmemorial. We genuinely believe in Godï¿½. it is not that we do notbelieve in God at all. We are good people. But still we are nothappy. WHEN we are continuously walking on the path for millions & trillions of years THEN even if the path to God; to peace & happiness; to freedom is a very long path many of us would havereached the goal by now. At least we would have made some progresstowards our goal with reference to the distance to be covered in thepath. But it does not appear to us that we have made any progress.We are still fearful; tense; anxious; deficient, uncertain & struggling. We are running; running & running ï¿½ may be becausewe find others also doing the same. Why this scenario has arisen ?The simple reason is that path is not "straight". The pathis "round" . What progress can be made when you are running ona "round" path ? Where can you reach ? How then to make progress ?Simple answer is ï¿½ï¿½ "Rise above the circle (round)" ! Whatis "circular" ? The relativity/ absence of absolute / "duality" isroundness ! With every pleasure, pain is associated. Whatevercomes, goes. Whatever begins, ends. Whatever rises, sets. Everyhappiness; pleasure is relative & temporary. Hence you seekpermanent happiness & peaceï¿½ an absolute & not relative peace & happiness. So the circle is "dualities". How to rise abovethe "dualities" of pleasure & pain; health & disease; gloom & gaiety;profit & loss; praise & criticism; affluence & poverty; victory & defeat; birth & death, good & bad, right & wrong, fame & ill fameï¿½.. & so on ? Answer is "Equanimity" (Samata) !"Equanimity" consists of doing your all Karmas in an equanimousmanner. In order to do Karma with Equanimity you need to eliminateindividual likings (Raag) & dislikings (Dvesha) as the primemotivators of your Karmas. In other words the prime motivator orreason of your Karmas should not be "desire" but should beyour "duty". We have already explained in previous write up as to howIMMEDIATELY upon your ACCEPTANCE , the body starts doing DUTY onlyAUTOMATICALLY, EFFORTLESSLY.MAGICAL AND AUTOMATIC OPERATION OF EQUANIMITY"Only that person who is Nishkaam (desireless); Nirahankar (Egoless);Nispruha (fearless; carefree) and Nirmam (Mamataless) ï¿½ï¿½. getspermanent & divine peace & happiness" (Gita 2/71)ï¿½ WHEN you practice Equanimity THEN you eliminate the very rootcause of desires, the likings & dislikings (Raag & Dvesha).ï¿½ WHEN you relinquish Likings & Dislikings THEN youbecome "desireless" (Nishkaam).ï¿½ WHEN you become desireless THEN your Intellect stabilises.ï¿½ WHEN your Intellect stabilises THEN Mr. Conscience awakens in youto take charge. You acquire Discrimination. You fix the goal ï¿½.Freedom, Liberation, God Realisation ! From Conscience (Viveka)arises the sense of "Duty". From Conscience arises "Fearlessness".ï¿½ WHEN your Intellect stabilises THEN your Karmas start gettinggoverned by your "duty" and not by your desires.ï¿½ WHEN your Karmas are governed by "duty" THEN the "sense ofdoership" in you gets extinguished.ï¿½ WHEN the "sense of doership" in you gets extinguished and thereare no "likings or dislikings" THEN your Ego automatically getsextinguished because Ego consists only of likings and dislikings andsense of doership. You become Egoless (Nirahankar).ï¿½ WHEN you do your "duty " with no desires THEN youbecome "Nirmam". Your "mineness" is gone because when you do yourduty with no desires you are in fact indulged in "service". It is alaw that "service destroys mamata (mineness)".ï¿½ WHEN you do your Karmas as a part of duty without expectinganything in return THEN you become "fearless" (Nispruh).ï¿½ As a combined effect of all the above you do not have any of thefollowing:-* D esire "to get" something;* Desire to live* Fear of death* Tendency "to do" something.ï¿½ WHEN there is no Raag/Dvesha; no sense of doership & noorientation towards the result, THEN the Karma immediatelybecomes "Sattwik" Karma as per Gita.ï¿½ WHEN your Karma is "Sattwik" and when you do not do a Karma with asight on the results THEN your "Karma" becomes "Akarma" within themeaning of Gita. Your Karmas then cease to give you results.ï¿½ WHEN there are no results THEN the "CHAIN" or the Bondage ofaction & reaction of Karma & Result gets broken and you are free.This is Liberation/Jeevan Mukti/Kalyan/Salvation/Freedom/Moksha.Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B------------------------------Hari OmIn the last Article I had explained the effortless and instantprocess of Acceptance , then automatic process of your doing yourduties, then automatic process of entering of Equanimity into yourmind and then automatic process of your getting Fearless, Egoless,Worryless and Mamataless. Hence you became eligible to invoke Gita2:71 - automatically _ JUST BY ACCEPTANCE ! IN "KSHIPRAM TIME" ! Nowthis write up makes you relaxed in the loving arms of your Daddy-Paramatma !DISCONNECTION / LIBERATIONYou are "connected" with this world through "Ego" only because "Ego"controls & gives command to Intellect in the form of Likings;Dislikings; self gratifying and desire driven Karmas (Buddhi).Intellect controls & gives commands to "Mind" (Mann). "Mind" controlssense organs (eyes, ear, skin, tongue, nose). Sense organs areengaged in their subject matters (Eyes to the form; ears to thesound ; tongue to the taste; skin to the touch; nose to the smelletc.) The world consists of such subjects matters; activitiestherein & people engaged therein. The "world" has nothing else.Now Ego controls your intellect. WHEN your Karmas are based on thebasis of your "duty" & not on the basis of your desires THEN Your"Intellect" has no choice but to get stabilised; to get fixed; to getfocussed to your goal ... Liberation; freedom from sorrow. YourIntellect gets free time because it is not engaged in transferringcommands of "Ego" to "Mind". It has nothing to "instruct" the Mindregarding "the world". The Intellect loses interest in the world.Your Mind is servant of your Intellect. WHEN Intellect has no commandreceived from "Ego"- (Ego gives command ) THEN it cannot provide anycommand to your mind. Your mind then loses interest in the senseorgans & the subject matters of sense organs. "Mind" then startsthinking in terms of "Gyaan" (knowledge); "Bhakti" (Devotion) & "Varaigya" (detachment). No body neither the Self; nor the Ego ;nor the Intellect nor the Mind remains interested in the worldlysituations/circumstances/happenings/positionings; in the worldlypeople; and in the worldly activities. They remain connected withthe world but in an "equanimous" manner i.e. physically but not byEgo, Mind & Intellect .... Only through "Duty".Once the disconnection with the world arises in your Mind as you areno more impacted by the dualities thrown by the world before you inthe form of pleasure & pain, happiness & sorrow, victory & defeat,fame & ill-fame, health & disease, praise & criticism, good andbad, right & wrong, birth & death etc.WHEN you are not impacted at all by the dualities. THEN you are saidto be Liberated !WITH YOUR DADDY"Ego" consists only of "Raag" & "Dvesha". It gets manifested in theform of "sense of doership" WHEN all three are gone THEN your "Ego"starts getting extinguished. WHEN the "Ego" is gone THEN the sense ofindividuality ("Jeevahood") is gone & "the connection" with the worldis gone. This Universe contains only 3 elements. Jeeva (You, thepure You); Jagat (the World) and Jagdish (the God). WHENJeeva "disconnects" with Jagat. THEN what remains behind is Jeeva & Jagdish. That is the end of the path. That is your goal. That isthe real purpose of getting human birth.It is exactly why the God has time and again in the Gita statedthat "I am equanimous", "I am equal to all creatures". When youpractice equanimity, you are in fact trying to become equal toGod. As you start realising and experiencing more & more that allthe things made by God are "equanimous" you become more & moreenthusiastic (take any example, Sun, Fire, Water, Air, and Earth -all are equal to all. Any one who touches fire, burns his fingerswhoever he may be. Any one who drinks water, quenches his thurstwhoever he may be)With your Intellect already stabilised, you start enjoying yourcompany with "equanimity" WHEN you are continuously indulged inequanimity THEN in fact you are continuously with your Father, theGod.It is then that "Shraddha", "Bhakti" & "Prem" in that order arise inyou because you start feeling clearly as to how your Daddy - God isalready sitting in the same "Equanimous" state and controlling theworld effortlessly through mother Nature. You start believing thatyou are part of God. You start seeking Him. You start admiringHim. You start glorifying Him. You start loving Him. You startunderstanding Him. You start singing his praises - so that you maybecome Him.Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B--------------------------------JaiShri Krishna,"Peace" means - to become "mentally and physically quite", not to doanythingWHEN we have relationship with an activityTHEN we have relationship with the World/NatureWHEN there is relationship with the worldTHEN there is unrest/lack of peace/sorrow/BondageWHEN connection with world is continuous and unrest, lack of peaceincreasesTHEN a velocity to do karmas develops in you to remove the unrest,get peace but again through world onlyThus a vicious circle forms. Your relationship with activity keepsstrenghthening.WHEN you act with a "nishkaam bhaav" (desireless motive)THEN velocity of doing karma in you starts getting eliminatedWHEN velocity is goneTHEN you get established in EquanimityWHEN you get established in EquanimityTHEN peace generates in youWHEN peace generates in youTHEN you have two options, to enjoy that peace or to renounce thatpeaceWHEN you renounce that peace (that is don't get impacted by thatpeace or don't enjoy (bhog) that peaceTHEN you realise Paramatma (Gita 6:3)So the process starts with nishkaam bhaav - which is effortless andactionless !!By "activity" in - equality arises. By "in-activity", Equanmityarises - without any efforts of any sort whatsoever.Once you are equanimous, you are as good as Paramatma. You remainseparate from the world having no mental connection. No desires.Only Duty. You are free, you are liberated, you are MAST (blissful).You then attain permanent bliss - self proven, automatic,activityless, prideless, egoless, PEACE .(Shaant Ras).Narayana NarayanaRajendra J BohraHari OmAs indicated by Lord Krishna to Arjuna in Gitaji 9:30/31 and asgreatly simplified by Swamiji Shri Ramsukhdasji, one can realiseParamatma instantly, at this very moment.The topic "Discipline of Actionlessness" undoubtedly is the gift ofSwamiji (Maharajji) to the world at large, however as indicatedearlier much background is needed for a deeper dive into thissubject. Mostly everything presented is from Swamiji's books /lectures. Let us get a flavor of this divine work by starting withcontemplating on some thoughts / insights on "Into a Peaceful Zone."INTO A PEACEFUL ZONE1. If we are quiet we are positioned in God. "Peace" is the causein realizing God (Gita 3/6). "Peace" comes to us by "disconnectionwith world". It is a law that every disconnection generates instantpeace, even if it is disconnection of waste from the body (Gita12/12).2. World is moving away from us continuously, without anyrest. "Momentum" never remains permanent. "Positioning" can remainpermanent. "Change" in world is dependent upon an "unchangeable"platform which is "Self". "Connection with world" is temporarywhereas, "Disconnection with world" is permanent. The ultimatespiritual discipline is ï¿½ "momentum-less; "Action-less"; "Peaceful.3. "Peace" is existing effortlessly and automatically. We only haveto "disconnect" with the element which generates unrest viz. "me"and "mineness" with the body & the world.4. In the element called "God" ï¿½ there is neither "action"nor "matter". "To do" is also an "actionNot to do" is also anaction. We don't have to either "do" or "not do". We don't have tobe concerned with "availability" or "absence" of any matter/worldlything. Simply "Inner Silence". There is no thought even of God inthe ultimate stage. "Na Kinchidapi chintayet" (Gita 6/25).5. To realise God, we have to leave "labour". We have toadopt "rest", quiteness. We have to accept peace. "To acceptPeace" means ï¿½ to experience our automatic, obvious, self-proven,effortless, natural positioning into Element called "God" or elementcalled "Self". "To experience" ï¿½ means we have to firmly believe itis so.6. "Self" has no capacity "to act". "Thinking" is an act of mind andnot of "Self". "Self" can only accept or reject, associate ordisassociate. Since in "Self" there is no "activity" ï¿½ thereforeonly "Self" realizes God.7. If we are "thinking (Chintan)", you are positioned in the worldbecause world is existing only in our thoughts. It is appearingas "existing" ï¿½ only because we pay respect to it. We like to seeit as "existing" ï¿½ because we are "existing" and we feel thatthe "connection" with world generates Peace and Happiness. Butthe world is constantly changing. It is "Asat" (unreal). There isno "present" in the world. The "future" is getting convertedinto "past" every fraction of a second.8. "Thoughtless" or "Peaceful" state, while being fully awake, ispossible, and it is easy, but we must have "willingness" .9. We can live without "thoughts" as we are in Deep Sleep."Thoughts" are always in respect of that element which is "non-existing". "Present" can be never a subject matter of "thought" ï¿½it is subject matter of "action" or "inaction". Only "past"and "future" can be subject matter of "thought". Both do not exist.10. As "thought" is always about an element which "does not exist"and as there is no existence of "world" ï¿½ disconnection with worldleads us to a thoughtless state. This disconnection is notphysical. It is by "Self" while fully awake. This disconnection iseither by "rejection" by the "Self" of unilaterally made connectionwith the world or by "acceptance" of that element whichis "present".Sadhaks now can ask questions on the material shared so far. Theymust come out with doubts if any on the above ï¿½ so thatdeliberations are swift and productive.PranaamJai Shree KrishnaVyas N B-Shree HariRam RamSwamiji has written extensively on this subject based on his 80years deep and intense study of the Gita, Ramcharitra Manas andother scriptures. He has summarized the essence of these texts andboldly stated quoting scriptures that realizing God is not likeacquiring things of the world that require effort. God cannot berealized through activity and effort (i.e. involvement ofmind/body/intellect). Due to the vastness of this topic, only onepoint is being addressed -Swamiji has emphasized having a relationship with Bhagwaan, and thatrelationship is not through some practice or effort. A relation willchange only by acceptance at the Self (Atma) level. I belong toKrishna and Krishna is my very own. This body is not me, nor mine.Until this acceptance doesn't happen at the Self level, nothing willbe gained. We may study or do as many different spiritual practicesas possible, but all it will do is bloat our ego, and in the endnothing will be gained. We will only attach another relation that Iam so knowledgeable, I have the best Guru, I have read the Gitathree times over. etc. etc.Acceptance by Self is best, that is why it is called "karannirpeksha" i.e. only through the predominance of discrimination(between real and unreal). The reason is that the essence of God isbeyond any action i.e. no activity can reach the essence of God.Therefore it is "immediate" on acceptance, and there is "no effort"required - simply acceptance, just like earlier example of newlymarried wife's acceptance of husband.Meera DasRam RamSir,Mike stated that the simplest method is to quiten the mind andsettledown, go insideto the divine. This is a fature that everyone has the conscience withand not divine. This conscience can be dulled and if we nurture it itdirect the ways of common good to all, a clear conscience.Thefeature is simple and true, but none can visit divine so easily. Thesupreme is beyond human vision and the presence of Him is understoodonly by the effects of His creation, which we call nature.Thank you,Paul ponniah..-Slowing of mind or dhairya or dhiir -gambhiir is involuntary resultof self realization by cutting down branches of ignorance by repeatedcontemplation or practice of purification of thoughts. With increasein purity, it moves up from specialization to generalization. Whenspecializations are immersed in generalization or abstract truth,movement of mind ceases. There is no other way of quietening of mind.Bhagway Gita says, Urdhva Moolam, Adhah Shaakhaam as the structure ofawareness of self or the origin. The general or Mool or rootknowledge is on the top, and as it is divided into branches flowingdown, these create perspectives by differring points of view andresult in conflicts. So you have growing different subjects insciences, technologies and politics in conflicts with one another.These branching actions are called Subjects or Vishay or poison ofmind.How does the branches first come to exist? What is the structure ofthe tree of creation? Mool or general is void with infinitepossibilities. RamCharit Maanas says, Tryah Shool Nirmoolanam ShoolPanim. This means, the origin of the three branches or TriShool (Sat,Raj Tam guna) is NirMool (without origin). Shiva is holding theNirMool (without origin), from which the TriShool is originated. Theword Kcchatria has meaning in the word itself. Kchhatria is gettingrid of the three Guna and immerse into Brahman. Kchhay = loss of,Triya = three Gunas. Arjun was Kchhatria as He was enduring aprocess of understanding to root of knowledge or the generalknowledge from the war of MahaBhaarata (Dharma Yuddha) wheninteraction amonst three branches or dharma of Sat, Raj, Tam gunatook place.RamCharit Maanas saysRamam Kaamari Shaivayam Bhav Bhay Harnam Kal MatteBh Singham,Yogindram, Zyan Gamyam, Guna Nidhi Vigitam, NirGunam NirVikaram.It says step by step movement of self realization in a prayer to SriRam 'Ramam Kaamari Shaiyam i.e., Sri Ram who is cleaning from ourmindunsuitable desires;Bhav Bhaya Haranam i.e., removing fear of the world and"Kaal Mattebh Singham i.e., acting like loin in removal of theconstraints of time; and then,Yogiindram, Zyan Gamyam = getting our mind introspective, and let itbe moving/progressing in right direction with logic and selfawareness without assumptions 'Guna Nidhi Vijitam i.e., conqueringocean of theGunas, NirGuman, Nirvikaram i.e., becoming NirGuna and without error.RegardsK G(Krishna Gopal)--I am happy that good things are discussed in this area. Itseems that we need to do saadhana repeatedly. Sri Krishnasuggested 'sanaihi sanairuparamet -- should through gradual practiceattain tranquility and fixing the mind on God. 'Yatoyato nischarati'he should repeatedly fix it on God.The PatanjaliYogasutra suggests 'Abhyaasa vairaagybhyam 'practice and dispassion in yoga. Lord Krishna also suggested 'Abhyaasenatu Kounteya Vairaagyenach gruhyate' practice and dispassionare necessary in saadhana to the saadhakaas or people practicingKarana Nirapeksha saadhana."golianjaneyulu"---Hari OmThis refers to the observations of Sadhaks on the posting made sofar.Reg Prabhakarji's observation that "practice" is the essence , I muststate that Gitaji does not to any "practice" to be resortedparticularly in the Discipline of Actionlessness, where eventhe "vilest sinner" becomes virtous( Dharmatma) and secures lastingpeace in a "kshipram" time (time which is less than even a second-instantly). He so becomes merely by "acceptance/resolution" whichagain is instant.Once tere is acceptance, all other processes right upto ParamatmaRealisation are AUTOMATIC, SPONTANEOUS, EFFORTLESS and ACTIONLESS !Here neither any eyes are to be closed (Meditation) , nor any nose isto be pressed (Pranayaam), nor any ears are to be closed(nididhyasan) nor any tedious procedure is warranted. All startswith an acceptance by SELF and in no time you have achieved thepurpose of human life.Regarding observations of Krishna Gopalji ( KG ) let me state thatonly in human birth a Jeeva can change his "SVABHAAV " and in noother form of life. Jeeva can change it in an instant , if he iswilling to change. That is why only "vilest sinner" becomes Dharmatma(Gita 9:31)Mike Keenor has indeed captured the entire subject in just onesentence - "Simplified says, quieten down the mind, go within" -that is divine. That indeed is amazing. Absolutely precise andaccurate . Thanks - please keep observing.Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B-Reply to query of MahalaxmijiJai Shri KrishnaWho has stated and where that devotional service, arti, cooking foodfor Krishna etc are inactions? We have not even touched upon thesepoints so far. We are indeed happy that you are indulged into thoseactivities. But here is a method of acceptance which makes your eachand every activity - not only cooking for Lord Krishna , or doingArti or discussing about His pastimes - but wHATEVER else you aredoing also equally that effective and productive ! . 24 Hours aday! That is possible only when you" become" of Him. You " become"of Paramatma by accepting - " Only He is mine, Nothing else is mine".So where is the contradiction? What is the query?We have not stated that devotional acts are bad or useless any where?From which posting the doubt has arisen in you? . However if you donot accept your exclusive relationship with Him , then the actionsreferred by you will only be fresh /new good/ sattvik Karmas . Theywill create Bondage for you, they still will give you results. Youwill not be able to get freedom from Bondage unless you haveexclusively accepted Krishna as yours. ( Doosara na Koi- Nothing elseis mine) Thereafter whether you do Arti or cook food for Him or notwill not be material - your each and every action will be a divyakarma - because SELF has changed ! When you will see a movie thenalso you will be deemed to be a devotee/ bhakta by Krishna- but onlywhen you accept what Swamiji has preached.24 hours a day - 365/366 days a year you shall be devotee of Krishnathen only- not otherwise. Be sure on that. Because then your falseself also remains in existence. Unless you become of Krishna - thetrue self remains under glove/cover only ! !A traditional Indian Wife never speaks the name of her husband. Doesthat mean that she is not of her husband? How she is not of herhusband? She has "accepted" ! Now whether she utters his name ornot, cooks food for him or not, how does that matter- once she has"become" of her husband ? Isn't it?Hence once you have "become" of Paramatma by "actionless/effortlessacceptance" then only the actions stated by you will become "divyakarmas" ( Divine actions) - not before that.We are all trying so far to tell you the importance of thatacceptance !Narayana NarayanaRajendra J Bohra--Priy Sadhaks,This is very crucial question. It is the aim for all of us. Accordingto Swamiji Attainment of god is really effortless. Noteit "EFFORTLESS". Taking that clue I tried to see what effortlessmeans. We may feel so many things happening in our body which areeffertless. Therefore I feel attainment & presence by experiencingheart beats in me and i feel its gods work going on. If trere is workthen there must be some one doing it ? Taking that lead I feel God'spresence in me and similarly in everybody. Comtemplate on this. maygod bless all of us by making us feel the all pervading effortlessly.ThanxRaja Gurdasani-----------------------------QUESTION: Kindly elaborate as to why accepting, rejecting,associating and disassociating are not actions as the item 6 belowseems to imply.6. "Self" has no capacity "to act". "Thinking" is an act of mind andnot of "Self". "Self" can only accept or reject, associate ordisassociate. Since in "Self" there is no "activity" ï¿½ thereforeonly "Self" realizes God.Jay Shree Krishna.Hemendra Parikh--Hari OmTo the question as to how there is no action involved in acceptanceor rejection, or love (Prem), devotion, desireless motive, (nishkaambhaav), remembrance (smriti),realisation, equanimity, experience,rejection, association, surrender, belief, faith, trust etc.- the answer is that there is no "tool" - Ego, Intellect, Mind, fivesenses e.g eye, ear, nose, skin, tongue and organs of action such ashands, legs etc - involved there. No tool at all !There is no movement of performance involved in acceptance etc.An "action" is first conceived in the mind. The previous body(form/place of existence) of every action is "mind" only. On accountof its nature of understanding the skill of performance, thisexpansion into the activity pertains to the mind. Mind is "the seedof those actions". The fruits or result of any action thereforeoccurs only to this mind. Actions exist thus first in the mind inthe form of imagination or will or sankalpa/desire.."The seed of action" - is the movement of mind or volition.Further the action must give results. There should then be a causefor action. There should be a desire/will existing in the mind to getactivated and attain movement or volition.Now in acceptance say of a Paramatma by a person, of a father by ason there is no involvement of ego, intellect, mind, hands, legs,eyes etc.. Mind is not involved because there is no knowledge fieldin which mind can travel i.e. can acquire movement or volition. Whennothing is known then what thoughts can arise, what activity mind canindulge into? What will or imagination can occur in respect of thatelement about which nothing is known by the mind- which is beyondmind? What is thinkable there? Nothing in fact. There is no causeinvolved for movement or volition of mind in acceptance, surrender,belief, faith, trust,devotion, prem etc.Entry into the mind of any reflections or experiences or conscienceor realisation or pure knowledge or equanimity and automatic arisingof any remembrance etc are not actions of mind. There the mind is amirror only. What is action of water when sun gets reflected there?What action do you do when someone enters your house? It is action ofother not of you.The direct experience of all of us also suggests that mind is notinvolved in acceptance or love etc. What kind of mind a child canboast of? Thoughts? How easily and how solidily he accepts hismother. Does he know as to how his mother is his mother? What can hismind can think about when he does not know anything? If he canaccept - then it gets proved that mind etc are not involved inacceptance.No knowledge, power, action, capacity, ability, labour, learning,education, practice, process, art, time etc is needed in acceptance.Only SELF is needed. What time does it take to accept? Not even afraction of a second- in an instant !When acceptance is made by self, then there is no forgetfulness. Itis absolute. Even without remembering one remembers always that he ismarried, or he is a brahmin (caste) or he is Indian/American orson/wife of So and So . Acceptance by SELF is that powerful !Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B----Shree Hari-Mahalaksmi Dasi,It is clear that you have a great desire to be at one with Lord.Is that not wonderful? There are many people so caught up in thehurly-burly of life who do not give such things a second thought.That desire you have will ensure your success, never loose sight ofit. Also you have come to this site and asked for direction. Manylikeme could well have used such assistance, but did not know of it.I started looking at Bhagavad Gita :12 in response to your question,started to pick out a verse or two, then realized the whole chaptershould be read.You will have noticed a common theme in the Sadhaks responses,simplified says, quieten down the mind, go within.With Respect and Divine Love,Mike(Mike Keenor)--NEW QUESTION:my respect and gratitude to all in this forum,I have some questions on the initial material, which I pray I canask in a clear way, without any prejudice. To begin...#6... "Self" has no capacity "to act". "Thinking" is an act of mindand not of "Self". "Self" can only accept or reject, associate ordisassociate. Since in "Self" there is no "activity" ï¿½ thereforeonly "Self" realizes.My question arises from my own training in BhagavadGita/spiritual discipline. I have always understood that we have amaterial body, and ego, which are separate from the true ego andspiritual form, which is now covered over. The material body iscovering, or "fitting" over the true self much like a glove....whichtakes the perfect contour of the original form. The true selfperforms actions in relation to the Supreme....these actions are inthe form of devotional activities, including but not limited to suchthings as offering arati to the Lord, cooking food and makingofferings on the altar to the deities/pictures of the Lord, (or thealtar within the heart), reading, discussing, etc. about the Lord.In other words, this activity which we are here engaging in, thisdiscussion about the nature of the soul and it's connection with theSupreme, would be classified, according to my understanding, asactivity of a true spiritual nature. It is not inactivity. This isnot the same as sitting and writing about a person of the materialworld, as it is centered around the Supreme Lord. Hence, the qualityof the activity is what would clarify it as a true spiritual actionof the soul, or a mundane activity relating only to the body. Bhag.Gita 5.6 substantiates this..."Unless one is engaged in thedevotional service of the Lord, mere renunciation of activitiescannot make one happy. The sages, purified by works of devotion,achieve the Supreme without delay." Please clarify.Sincere thanks, Mahalaksmi Dasi-To quieten the mind and enjoy freedom thoughts occur to all providedpeople develop vairagya and practice in that direction. Really hardis that but krishna says it is possible through the repetion andwill.In this process some achieve siddhi and some a little late andsome never.This is so depending upon their mind set up anddetermination.More number of people are afraid to do this. It is likeyoga master getting a fundamental response guruji if i close my eyesi am afraid there is pitch darkness and i cannot stand.guruji encourages no. be not afraid slowly you hit upon light andthat is om and that is the manistation of the god either in form orsound. proceed . experience has no substitute in this direction . Itis like krishna saying tasmat yuddhyasva bharata. Here bharata saysdeeep interest in self because nation and the king are one's own.om samprabhakar c l-Shram (effort), Pari-s-shram ( act of reducing effort) and Ashram(effortlessness) are different condition of work in an environmentvis-a-vis ones' state of nature (swabhaav). Any work is achievedeither by effort (shram), or by technique (parisshram), or gets doneby doing nothing (ashram). It all depends on how is the work againstswabhaav, called effort or shram like pushing cart uphill. By goinguphill by using automobile or car, is a parishram (shram but in adifferent way) because it is an act of overcoming effort bytechnique. And finally, ashram which is effortlessness by gravity(natural) pull of cart from higher altitude to lower altitude.Applying this principle to living being, it is natural for monkey tojump from tree to tree, and men can just walk. It applies in same wayin organizations. Thus, a work is difficult or easy is not aboutphysical sciences but depends on nature (swabhaav) of hose doing it.When Sri Krishna says about Ashram or Varna (color, personality traits) -Ashram (in effortless state), He means it by individuals' self nature, and condition of effortlessness or dharma. Sri Krishna said to Arjun that His fighting war is certain no matter what, as it is natural or involuntary action of Kchatria. He thus had no choice, and Bhagwat Gita only explained it how the nature works inside every living and non-living being, and creating illusion of choices.Einstein also came to same conclusion in studying relativity, and position of observers (points of views) limiting the vision.RegardsK G(Krishna Gopal)-------------------------------Kindly elaborate as to why accepting, rejecting, associating and disassociating are not actions as the item 6 below seems to imply.Jay Shree Krishna.

May 17, 2009

Shree Hari Ram Ram

Sadhaks, NAMASTE! DUE TO LENGTH THIS TOPIC IS NOW BEING CLOSED FOR THE TIME BEING. WE ARE CERTAIN IT WILL RESURFACE AGAIN! PLEASE DO NOT RESPOND AT THIS TIME TO THIS TOPIC. Also, please read Rajaji's message carefully. The moderators share the same sentiments and any future submissions that are disrespectful of other sadhaks, that are not concise, simple and too the point will not be posted. We hope you will understand our taking this firm stand. It is aligned with the GUIDING PRINCIPLES for this group and the feedback we have received from other sadhaks.

From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram

--

NEW POSTING

Priy vyas ji

Ibeen reading your long commentaries always answering every Q.

They were good full of vedic knowledge.

May be Vashishth ji GURU of lord Rama having more knowledge than you.....

He said in MANAS ' PREM BHAGATI JAL BIN RAGHURAI, ABHIANTAR MAL KABAHU NA JAI"

Kindly observe my request to the forum that we should have simple explanable practical way than long difficult ununderstandable words.

Swamiji always did this.

Second thing I must say one should always be a learner rather that a teacher.

Hope it helps

Thanx

Always at thy lotus feet,

Raja Gurdasani

-------------

Hari Om

Pratapji ! What is the issue here? Issue is that BY taking shelter of Prakruti/inert you cant realize Paramatma. Are buildings , people etc seen by you in dream existing in reality? No ! Similarly you should perceive that what is visible to you in waking state also does not exist. Can what is seen by you on a movie screen said to be existing? No ! Why , because it is constantly changing. Now a thing which does not remain for a fraction of second unchanged , how can you call that to be existing ? A thing which was not there in the beginning, will not remain there in the end, at present also it is going away from you, how can you say you have connection with that thing? You have to think in terms of inert/prakruti that way only and dismiss its existence when doing your sadhana. How to dismiss that ? By not taking its shelter. As far as "doership" is concerned it neither exists in PRAKRUTI ( being inert and non existent how can intelligence be there in it?) , nor it exists in God ( Read Gita ) nor it exists in Pure Soul ( Self) ! In Prakruti there is ACTION not the doership. Refer your own example of Sun. Then where does it exist? It exists in him who assumes himself to be the doer. Who assumes himself to be doer? He assumes himself to be doer who has desire for fruit coming out of deed ! When you think this way ( without complicating and using your inert mind to the tilt, in a simple manner) , the doership of Karma Yogi goes because he has no focus on results. The doership of Jnana Yogi goes because he considers it to be a function of say Prakruti and not of Pure Soul. Doership of Bhakti Yogi goes because he considers all actions/deeds emanating from God. All three are wrong. But all three succeed in relinquishing doership out of themselves. One by doing it but relinquishing its fruits. Other by not believing himself to be the doer at all. Third by believing it to be extension ( Shakti) of Paramatma. Hence all three are right. What is material is relinquishment of doership …… not where exactly it is located. It is better to presume that it is not you, who is the doer. Let anybody else have that, what difference does it make to you ? SIMILARLY, it is not material whether inert exists or exists in which form, how it does not exist ( it matters for explanation by Saints, Scriptures but not that much for a sadhak , if that sadhak has "belief" or knows how to accept ) , what is difference between inert and Prakruti, how Prakruti is not existing when it is "Shakti" of Shaktimaan…… that in Vibhuti Yoga God described Himself to be all ( He might have but we are not yet God) ……..it does not matter, what matters is that we don't have to take shelter of it for the reasons stated initially in this note. Hence you should not USE the mind excessively, trust the Scriptures, refer to Conscience, and go ahead. Time and Grace of God will teach you, make you realize the non existence of inert/ Prakruti . Is yesterday existing? Did not it appear to be existing? Hence have an insistence free mental equipment, and keep deliberating. I will be glad to share my thoughts with you as understood by me.We will sort out each other's subtle difficulties of understanding.

It will help the deliberations if you can just specify what is your preferred path- Jnana Yoga, or Karma Yoga or Bhakti Yoga or Dhyaan Yoga? I hope by now you are determined. Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

-------

Shree Hari-Brother Vyas,Namaskar:I read Swami Rupesh Kumars' post, and I agree no harm in being transparent, infact it is positive.A joy I have is I don't have a 'Way', in a sense I am maybe the most vulnerablecontributer to this 'Divine Forum', as I am not steeped in the way of the Vedas;Bhagavad Gita is new to me prima facie, but at a deeper intuitive level it isnot.I agree absolutely w.r.t 'GRACE'; Scott Peck MD, (psychiatrists), made aninteresting and informed observation in one of his books, observing that somepeople spend there lives seeking Gods grace and never receiving it, whereasothers make no effort and yet receive IT.I have read some sulking comments by disillusioned western commentators to theaffect that the pure don't need it only the sinners need it. I suspect that viewis why they do not achieve 'HIS GRACE'. Your line, "There are many other "subtle" things, which I, innocently, sittingin....", True for all of us, some souls are very attuned to what's below the surface. A man of such passion as your good self, is not immune, no more thanI, or any other Sadhak.Another point in passing, (in fact I will past in the good Swami Rupesh Kumarscomment),'That some one ( the pointer out of faults in you) in fact takes a riskof getting curt reply of being told - Sorry ! I don't need your advice, but hestill persists for he is in Satsanga.......', I might add with respect, 'even ifyou receive nothing zero ever, to your comments be they positive or negative',that speaks volumes about that Sadhak.For a period of four years, my assistant was arguably the most pure person Ihave had the good fortune of knowing.Her honesty was, the best I can describe, as brutal in its simplicity.Her purity was astounding, she had gifts the vast majority of people do nothave, her only weakness I observed, and confirmed by her, she had trouble withthe sheer weight of impression that were all around her. The last I heard fromher was she was considering shaving her head, 'meaning to become a BuddhistNun', peace be to her.BHAGAVAD GITA Chapter 11:48. Neither by the study of the Vedas and sacrifices, nor by gifts, nor byrituals, nor by severe austerities, can I be seen in this form in the world ofmen by any other than yourself, great hero of the Kurus (Arjuna)!With Respect and Divine Love,Mike.(Keenor).------

-----------

Wonderfully brilliant statement (?) from Narinderji:" Be aware of your own feelings, your own self .You can never know the other .Neither can you ' know' him,nor bring about any transformation in theother,until you become enlightened yourself ; and when that happens, you startseeing the other in a new light. The Light of Love. ... and etc. ...AN ABSOLUTE OBSERVATION ON THE ABSOLUTE BY THE ABSOLUTE ... DEEP SALUTATIONS ...Aatmaiva samvishatyatmanaa aatmaanam ... Ya evam veda ... Narinderji my sincerepranams to your luck of becoming the recepient of the grace of such a Guru whorevealed The Guru, Sri Krishna in such simple way ... WONDERFUL!!!Deep Respects to you, your Guru and The Guru.Naga Narayana------

Sadhakhood is a bhava ! When sadhaks converse they become Guru and Pupil to each other.

dear swami rupesh jee............ dear sadhaks true,

Yes. No.Both and Neither. A few thoughts ,if you permit..............

A Guru is not a Guru, if he feels not a non-dual love for the Sishya................the Sishya is not a sishya, if he sees not God in his Guru.

The Movement of Time and Space forces its own pace on the manifest intelligence ............ just as Gunas move amongst the Gunas,causing all to happen as it does !

In this movement of Time and Space,where purity and impurity has become indistinguishable,and where Adharma poses as Dharma ,donning Dharma's spotless clothes ,very rare are the pure Sishyas or the pure Gurus of yore.........................

but the silver lining in this dark age is that a little bit of Sadhna draws a vast expanse of Grace.

But a danger crops up ....... when that happens,the ego starts feeling that it is already enlightened enough to start playing the Guru!

And Yet,the Buddhas are always smiling........ they keep guiding the wayward sadhak to actually, become a Buddha himself............

A Guru is One,who is dead to the self. He is Annatta ..... the not-self, the No-Mind. And,in so becoming and being ,he is the Light . The Light of the Lights shines through him,using his body ,mind and being,to spread the message of Love and Light.

And,the Sishya of the Dark Age,Kalyuga,.......the sadhaka, you and I, ??? With just his sincere longing true,he is able to invoke Krishna's Grace and Love ............. just with his yearning,his pining,his crying, and his help-less-ness !!!! Be not in doubt though, nobody can skip his sadhna,each one has to walk the Path step by step constantly egged on by his longing .The Lord's song of Love becomes a Guide only to such a one .

..................and now, a small point about 'live Guru'.No doubt Light is Not-two. There is no such a one as a live Guru. Yet,the paradox is ..............yes, he is !

A small similie may suffice to make it clear. Can a mother's image and voice, appearing on the TV screen have the same effect on a child, as the mother's presence ?

That,then ,is the difference between hearing,reading, and being in the live presence of Swami Ramsukhdas jee,and seeing his audio-videos.

Only,when ,the sadhak has been united with the Satguru perennially abiding in the cavity of his heart ( and that happens............ when the Mind dies.........in the Moment Now .... and is resurrected as No-mind )............... only then, reading , hearing and video-seeing of the Guru,becomes as revealing or as Gracious as His presence. Now,being present or not being present becomes the same. Now,the Word has becomethe Guru.

BUT,NOT TILL THEN.

You are always your own Proof,dear sadhaks ........................narinder urges you to try it ............ be available to the aura of a saint or a sage, and see how Krishna smiles on you. Love Swami Ramsukhdas jee,be his devotee............... having understood his message,now see him in the saint or the sage ,who is in front of your eyes. And watch the Truth of One-ness tearing through the obduracy of your mind,and reaching your heart centre!

The first and the last Gift that the outer Guru ( The 'live' Guru ) gives the Sishya true,is freedom from himself ! And then,suddenly it happens ............... the sishya finds the physical presence of the outer Guru ' not necessary' any the more. He discovers that his Guru is ever present with him. His No-mind can invoke his presence at any time it feels the need. Or,even the presence of the Lord. ............

And yet.............. what you have said ,is also true.............. Taittriya Upanishad speaks about 'learning and teaching' , 'teaching and learning',................ but

somewhere,somewhere,the Upanishads clarify that all teaching should be such,as if it is not you , who are teaching ! You should remain silent ...and let your Guru speak through you.

Ah,sadhaks dear................. how to express that which is "anarvachniya "?

May the Blessings of the Buddhas be with you............

AUM

narinder bhandari

------

Jai Shree Krishna

The dialogue so fondly quoted by Sadhak Narinder Bhandari between some one by the name "Nari" and perhaps himself has as many interesting points as are the lines. In honour of this Forum let me state as it is. I am sure it will help both him and Mr Nari ( Or Is talking to himself in a trance like state of mind?) :

please permit narinder to share the following dialogue between nari and narinder ..........

keep working on yourself , narinder ............ ..

Your Mr Nari is wrong. Self is complete/ perfect in itself. No action ever reaches SELF. It is a futile exercise for you to WORK on your self. Hence ignore what Mr Nari told you Mr Narinder. nari's final words to thee are ............ ......... " Keep working on yourself, narinder ............ be yourself ............ .

NEVER SAY WORDS ARE FINAL. THAT SHOWS THERE IS NO PLACE FOR ANY OTHER WORDS AND YOU HAVE ALREADY BECOME BHAGWAAN LIKE MR OSHO !

love yourself, narinder, ............ ......... ...

NEVER LOVE YOUR SELF, Mr NARINDER. THERE WOULD BE EGO IN IT. NEVER NEVER DO THAT. LOVE PARAMATMA INSTEAD. ENTIRE WORLD IS LOVING ITSELF ONLY ! AND SUFFERRING FROM EGO !

love yourself wisely ............ ........

LOVE IS BLIND. THERE IS NO PLACE FOR WISDOM THERE ! WHAT KIND OF WISDOM IS THERE WHEN A MOM LOVES HER CHILD? LOVE EMANATES OUT OF MINENESS ! LOVE AND WISDOM ARE CONTRADICTORY. LOVE GOD NOT BECAUSE OF WISDOM. BUT BECAUSE OF MINENESS.

keep working on yourself narinder ............ .....

ANSWERED ABOVE. DONT WASTE TIME IN ADMIRING YOURSELF. and pay heed to what the knowers of Truth lovingly do say......... ...let not your Mind come too much into play ............ ......

WHY TOO MUCH ? DONT RELY UPON MIND AT ALL !all the buddhas are smiling on you......... .... and are ever guiding you .......... just inhale their fragrance ............ ... holding your Mind from any comments , or judgement ............ ......... .....

IF YOU DONT HEED THEIR COMMENTS OR JUDGEMENTS ON YOUR SADHANA HOW WILL YOU LEARN? HOW WILL YOU IMPROVE? ARE YOU BRAHMA ALREADY NEEDING NO COMMENTS OR GUIDANCE ? IF YOU HAVE INTENTION OF HOLDING YOUR MIND FROM THEIR COMMENTS WHY DO YOU GO TO THEM, AT FIRST PLACE ?and should you still feel the need for succour ............ go, lay your head at the feet of the saints and sages and wash their feet with tears of Love ............ . THAT YOU CANT DO IF YOU HOLD YOUR MIND FROM THEIR COMMENTS AND JUDGEMENT. HENCE YOU ARE CONTRADICTING YOURSELF.

aapo deepo bhava, narinder

WHY BHAVA ? ARE YOU NOT ALREADY ? RESPECTED SIR?

Blessings of the Buddhas be with thee ........."

WHO IS MR BUDDHA ! So far there was one Nari and one Narinder !!

Swami Rupesh Kumar

-------------------------------

By the way, I still feel 'difficulties' in my own 'sadhana'- though they are quite 'subtle' ! But that may be only because I must be erring somewhere. May be those difficulties are told by me even before they are apparent. I know why they are ( I do have Swamiji to tell me) but I don't know as to why they should be ! But I do have, undoubtedly, unlike your kind self !!

Dear Vyas jee,

To accept the presence of the ' Difficulties' ...............to know that they remain, and will always remain, that they are merely the Play of the Gunas,a part ofthe overall design, ......... ...... is to transcend them ! Transcendence into the beyond is the Way.

Nanak says " jeta samund sagar nir bharya,tete augan hamare; Kripa karo kuchh meher upavo , tum dubde Paathar tarre "............. " as is the Ocean full of water, so is my being replete with Avagunas ( Blemishes),O Merciful One, do shower your Grace on me; you,who made even the rocks float on the waters "................to think that a person of Nanak's being ,too,is aware of the presence of 'vritis' in his being due to the Gunas play of nature ! ....... But the hallmark of Nanak's being is ACCEPTANCE, AWARENESS !!! He is aware that Gunas cannot be erased, BUT can be transcended ! In that Transcendence,they cease to be any problem! They just are ......... Krishna's own Game and Play !

Vyas jee,or narinder the sadhak has to rise to that level of Conscious awareness ............the paradox of self -effort and surrender of effort has to get resolved in each being .........and what narinder is aware is this : It is a slow Process ! Progress into the higher levels of Consciousness is necessarily very slow ! Grace and Self Effort has to become ONE.And Stillness of the Mind is the Way . The Paradox gets resoved only in the hushed SILENCE of the Mind. In the death of Mind . Meditation is that Silence . It is the Way ...and it is the End , the Goal !!

ah,narinder.............. you are your friend.... and it is you, who is your enemy too !!

Surrender of your Doing is the easier Way ................ and the paradox is that surrender means ' even surrendering the act of surrender !"

Narinder awaits the Ultimate Grace. Silently,he waits and waits .............. knowing that all will happen by itself !!!

Is this waiting too a not-doing ? Or,is it the Doing ? Ramanna suggests yet an easier Way. "Leave all your pre-occupation with the myriads of questions and answers ...... go to the Ultimate Question ," Who am I to resolve the Un-resolvable ? WHO AM I ? BE STILL and let the knowledge of the Self steal over the self !"

narinder is DOING / NOT-DOING just THAT !

Other points raised by Vyas jee,have been touched adequately elsewhere !

sharing with you the Light that is to narinder available , Vyas jee,

with respects,

AUM

narinder bhandari

--------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Hari Om

Narinderji Maharaj ! At the outset I must say that I thought wrongly. A human can always do so !

But let me tell as to why I felt, what I stated. You were constantly telling - Meditation is only way, Meditation is only way! Now when you go deeper into any sadhana - this "ONLY" becomes obstacle. Secondly, there is no "live" or "dead" Guru ! Gurus are never bodies ! Thirdly, spiritual ego is always within, never outside. Hence unless you have that ego within , you can't notice it outside at all- it is a law ! I repeat it is a law !! Fourthly, you can never get anything out of inert unless you reconcile yourself to be a "bhogi" - it does not matter what Mr Osho taught to you.Then there was a noticeable addiction to "doership" and "non doership" subject- as if that is key- catapulting into rather debatable (in my personal view- absolutely wrong) views about "Prarabdha" and "Purushartha" ! "Notice me", "Notice me" - this tendency was visible clearly with unique liking to even "name" given to you by the world (Ever understood as to why many sadhaks do not even let their names to appear in full, many shorten them? - what is so important about the name ?, many never let that to be even known- e g GT Moderators) Above all, there was intense "insistence" that ages and eons are required to reach at spiritual progresses/milestones. "Grace of God" is automatic, Narinderji ! It can't be prayed for or sought !!

There are many other "subtle" things, which I, innocently, sitting in Equanimous mode (in my personal view) observed. Since it is my duty ( again in my personal view- that is how I thought ) to point out the same to you (as a Sadhak would do to another)- I took the liberty of expression.

But, I feel now that you don't need any such views- for you already have had what you ever needed ! Hence you may feel free and enjoy! By the way, I still feel 'difficulties' in my own 'sadhana'- though they are quite 'subtle' ! But that may be only because I must be erring somewhere. May be those difficulties are told by me even before they are apparent. I know why they are ( I do have Swamiji to tell me) but I don't know as to why they should be ! But I do have, undoubtedly, unlike your kind self !!

Let me confess one thing. I took this forum with an objective. I wanted to spread the teachings of Swamiji in a practical manner. I would observe each sadhak with a view to find out as to where he should be finding difficulties. That was not sitting in "judgement" nor that was exhibition of some "extra" knowledge, that was goal which I set, to let sadhak know where exactly the improvement is needed. (It is my personal view/bhava) I thought the Satsanga meant that. For that purpose, I had to be direct, I had to be rather iron handed,but honestly, I would surrender the karmas to Him in the end. Some very typical Qs thus were answered by me rather ruthlessly. I thought if I am able to change even one soul towards Swamiji's teachings, I have done an akarma. Hence I never missed any question. I never relaxed till I put right thing, in detail.To my mind, that was "Love"- which you have referred Narinderji !

Amen! Namaste !! Till we meet again !!!

Sarve Bhavantu Sukhina, Sarve Santu Niramaya !

Sarve Bhadrani Pashyanti, Ma Kaschit Dukh Bhag Bhavet !!

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!Dear Vyasji, thank you very much for your kind response reg action-less-ness. I have always appreciated the aptness in your response! I am sharing what I have understood mostly by staying with living Spiritual Teacher, and from meditating upon his words. I do not insist on "my way" as the only way. I have the highest regards for Swamiji as well.

Let us explore together to see if we are saying the same in essence.You say action means the doership only when we understand that unreal, inert doesn't exist(Nasato Vidyate Bhavo..).I see that Actions just happen, because they belong to Prakriti, Impersonally driven by Gunas. Our body-mind belong to Prakriti, and Prakriti does exist, as God being immanent in it as Manifest! God is beyond it too, Unmanifest! Besides, Prakriti cannot assume doership being inert reflecting only Existence-Isness-Sat. So per BG 3:27, man can only think he is the "doer" in ignorance. Man deluded by Ego is same as Self identified with body-mind in ignorance(Self-forgetfulness). To lead/wake him to say Nashto moha...BG 18:73, he has to be told "you are not the Doer, even as actions happen through the organism in YOUR Presence as Atman-Purusha! Then in BG 3:23 Even God says if He didn't engage relentlessly in actions, Man would also do the same, in 24th He even says worlds will perish if He did not perform actions! God, knowing He is not the Doer, He says this to us to see actionlessness in actions! Such actionless is present in actions as Sun shining, Nature unfolding, etc but the doer/desirer/and attachment are not present! This is what I understand! Now Let us explore "Nasato Vidyate Bhavo....." 2:16, because I see it a bit differently than you do.That which IS not(unreal), never comes to being, and that which IS(Real) never ceases to be! It says unreal, not inert! Inert which is jada has being only, because it simply IS! Unreal cannot be even perceived, is non-existent. So Prakriti IS manifest Reality(Saguna Sakar Brahman)! Purusha and Prakriti are ONE Reality, not TWO! in Ch 10, Vibhutiyoga, Lord is telling that He is the sun, moon, Himalaya, Oceans....! Purusha(Shiva) is Prakriti(Shakti) when in motion, not two separate Realities! This is the vision of Vedanta also! Beingness(Sat) as reflected in Prakriti is Consciounsess(Chit), our inner Reality-I and the two are One and the same. I am sorry. if I sound like a broken record but This is the most important Realization/Vision of Truth of Non-dual Vedanta!Renunciation of inert means Realizing the Imperishable Beingness-Brahman in the perishable aspect of Manifest and taking our stand as that Imperishable even as body-mind-intellect-senses changes. This is the Discrimination Shankara is talking about as I understand it! Perishability that is being talked in scripture is only to that which we consider separate existence(Names/Forms) because for separation from Totality, time-space concept arise in Imperishable Brahman expressed as Thought-Consciounsess! And that which is bound by space-time has beginning and end, but not to that Totality of Being free of Space-Time-cause-effect! World as separate objects is Mithya-Nama/rupa, not unreal!You are right in saying Non-doership is sahaj-natural and not planned/forced/thought. because in its sponteneity, there is the absence of thought, which is what the "me" is claiming "non-doership" via this thought "I am not the doer"!Namaskar...........Pratap Bhatt.

---

Dear Sadaks,God realization never lengthy process. kannapa, Gajendra elephant, Pingala (prostitute), Ajamilan worst characterised person, Arunagiri Nath the man behind woman only even at stage with leprosy, and so many attained realization. Their histories and monuments built are telling the truth. The problem with us is that we do not renounce at one stroke fully and sit in silence to surrender to Bagavan. Always thinking of differances between action and action less, I -Me-Mine or Nothing, God and Prakurthi Etc. It is very clear in Srimath Bagavath that what all came from Bagavan, what type of people- Gunas- creation Etc. It says that from hair of Bagavan came Roma Harashar (type of people), from Nabi (Ambalical cord) Bhramaji etc. It is also very clear in Srimath Bagavath and Geetha that Bagavan is NOT realizable by the senses/organs/by other means except by Gyana Roop which is again in Sabtha (devine sounds) Roop.ONLY Sat Exists after Maha Pralaya (end of world- described in detail in vedas), and Asat also exists after creation. That Duvaitham (Two concepts) Sat and Asat exists practically to all humans. But ONLY to realized one only Sat exists in his pure conscience (only intellect NO budhi) level. But for worldy minded ones everything appears as TWO.Besides Vedas and Sastras says that they (Vedas & Satras) are unable to define SAT, then where are we? Prahaldh says that the punisher (his father & solders ) and myself (prahalad) are one and the same Vasudev. Then where is action and action less? Where is doer and non doer for realized one like Prahalad? For us surely 2 not 1.When one does not give room in his heart for Paramathuma, desires pours in. But room only for Paramathuma in heart, desires NEVER exist, is simple theory. Chirst said," Empty they self (empty your heart) the I (GOD) shall fill it (HEART)". Where can one empty with Ego, desires Vasanas Etc in bundles? The doer and non doer both vanishes as one completely surrenders to GOD, and it is the duty bound of GOD to clear all Ego, vasanas, desires, doer/nondoer etc, says Sastra Bagavatha Sampradhaya (Bagavan care). Sadaks have sama Dhristi- No to Raga and Duvesa- Likes and dislikes.Jai Sri KrishnaB.Sathyanarayan----------------------------

At this moment,dear Sadhaks, two Topics are being discussed ...................... one about Effortless Attainment ...... and the Other about " The Difficulties faced in actualising the teachings of The Geetha "............... Can you see, dear sadhaks,.................do you see the Paradox..................??? Please allow narinder to share with you the essence of Sadhna , as shown to him by his guru........... Section 4 of Kena Upanishad is the basis of it......... 1. The Knowledge of brahama is the highest ........... 2.As a result of ones Sadhna ( Karma,Bhakti, Gyana) , and deep longing for Truth, A sadhak gets a peep into the Vastness of Truth, just as Lightening reveals the vastness of the skies for one moment. there is a sudden enlarging of the mind, a flash of Light enlightening the Intellect,an in pouring of the spirit causing fervour and joy ineffable. 3.The sadhaka has now to continue to use his experience to move higher and higher into the Concioiusness called " Brahaman ".............. this movement has to find reflection in his conduct in the world around him, the world has to be used as a training ground for oneself. 4. One day,some day,as a result of one's sadhna " sin is overcome and one gets established in the supreme ....." Section TWO of the Kena Upanishad speaks about the " Paradox of the Inscrutability of Brahaman " please permit narinder to share the following dialogue between nari and narinder .......... "keep working on yourself , narinder ..............

all that nari has had to say ..............

all that came to him as a blessing, as joy and peace, as love , as wisdom from the wise, as speech from silence,

lovingly has nari shared with narinder ............

he has nothing more to add..............

all that he had to say, has been said ............

his heart, with love, joy and satisfaction of being, is filled ........................

much have you given to him, narinder ..........

and even more from God he recieved ................

filled to the brim is nari .... and his vessel is now totally empty

revelling in timeless silence , his head he lays at Krishna's feet ................ "

nari's final words to thee are .....................

" Keep working on yourself, narinder ............ be yourself .............

love yourself, narinder, ........................

love yourself wisely ....................

keep working on yourself narinder .................

and pay heed to what the knowers of Truth lovingly do say............

let not your Mind come too much into play ..................

all the buddhas are smiling on you............. and are ever guiding you ..........

just inhale their fragrance ............... holding your Mind from any comments , or judgement ..........................

and should you still feel the need for succour ............

go, lay your head at the feet of the saints and sages

and wash their feet with tears of Love .............

aapo deepo bhava, narinder

Blessings of the Buddhas be with thee ........." AUM

narinder bhandari

---

Jai Shree Krishna Sadhakhood is a bhava ! When sadhaks converse they become Guru and Pupil to each other. In Satsanga, the hall mark is that your difficulties , if any, are identified naturally and are addressed even if you dont like. Hence the glory of Satsanga. In fact sadhaks must bring out deep within lying problems faced by them in sadhana before the forum. Swamiji would often say that He learnt many things from the listeners too. Satsanga is a forum where you should be transparent , open. It is definitely not a place of exhibiting any knowledge or expertise. It is a place where difficulties are to be identified, and sorted out. The greatest obstacle in that is a human's tendency to believe that he is perfect, and he knows it all. Swamiji stated this to be a stumbling block. Lucky are those guys to whom some one points out their problems and faults.If in Satsanga they are not pointed out and admitted, where they will get? That some one ( the pointer out of faults in you) in fact takes a risk of getting curt reply. of being told - Sorry ! I dont need your advice, but he still persists for he is in Satsanga. In the process, his own ego gets wiped out. He loves that. But keeps going unchanged. He kills the ego of others and before he does that puts his own ego on chopping block and thus goes forward real Satsanga. Egos of both get wiped out. I like this forum because of this. Pranaams. Swami Rupesh Kumar

---PRIOR POSTING

Hari Om

Pratapji ! Your observation is understandable. You are right when you say that "action" belongs to Prakruti. But you are Purusha. "Action" does not belong to you. Moreover there is no part of you belonging to Prakruti. " Mam eva" (Mine only) - We are part of God ONLY. And God is beyond Prakruti. Clear?

Now come to mandatoryness "action" . If you just mould your thought pattern to believe that "Nasato Vidyate Bhavo" ( Unreal, inert, doesn't exist) , you will understand that "action" means "doership" only. This very distinction of "sat existing" and "asat not existing" needs to be grasped/accepted by sadhaks with surgical precision and clarity. When you accept this firmly, Gita will start looking newer and newer to you. When you accept this- the disnctions of the type say "money" and "attitude towards money" will not arise at all.

Thus, by being "non doer" also "actionlessness" is achieved.But that "non doer ness" should not be forced/planned/ thought of. It should be "sahaj" (automatic) ; else you will not fall into "na kinchidapi chintayet" ( You shall not think for anything, even slightly) !

When you go deeper into teachings of Gitaji, you will find that "actionlessness" necessarily implies "disconnection with inert (nature) " . Because the very characteristics of nature is "action". Hence "desirelessness" is considered to be "silence" (inaction)- "inner silence" as pointed out by Miraji Dass.

Therefore, I would urge you, to always keep this fact (Nasato Vidyate Bhavah) in focus as a sadhak. That will have very positive impact on sadhana, knowledge of Scriptures and grasping of subtle points of Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj. Never stick to any thought as an "obsession". Never feel your way is the only way- Never ! Also "Equanimity" is "actionlessness" ! Can these things be grasped if you give "satta" (recognition) and "mahatta" (respect/importance) to inert ? No ! Hence "Nasato Vidyate Bhavo"

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B------

I now find that Narinderji Bhandari also has similar difficulties. Many many others should be having similar difficulties. May be that even Vasudev Sathyanarainji ! Such sadhaks are at the core very serious and " quite pure by antahkarana" . But erroneously they reconcile to the fact that: God Realisation is a lengthy process !

dear Vyas jee,narinder 's Guru used to say to him.................................. " Be aware of your own feelings, your own self .You can never know the other . Neither can you ' know' him,nor bring about any transformation in the other,until you become enlightened yourself ; and when that happens, you start seeing the other in a new light. The Light of Love. "You can see the other's point of view with love ...and it is with Love that is Krishna,that the other is able to move out of the eclipsing factor in his own self. All is between Krishna and the Individual .All between the Self and the self.You do not come into it ,narinder ! "

In our interaction,dear Vyas jee,narinder has found no dichotomy. We seem to be uttering thesame Truths in different words .Believe me,narinder has no ' difficulties'. His expression may falter in communication .......... but difficulties of understanding ,he seems to be quite quite free from.He is aware,though,that he has yet to move into Abidance of Truth becoming his conduct in action............................. and,it is for that, he seeks HIS Grace . In spiritual seeking, levels become redundent ...for narinder,.............. he cannot judge, nor has a wish to do so.. Narinder finds Vyas jee,Sathyanarain jee,Mike jee,Partap jee, Naganarayan jee,Shashikala jee, Meera je, Sadhna jee,Sushil jain jee ..................... and many more Sadhaks pursuing their individual Sadhna with deep sincerity and in the great spirit of understanding . narinder shares his ' small' light with them .............. the conclusions are their own . It is between each one and Krishna. Thank you for your desire for narinder's welfare and progress in the spiritual field. AUM With deep respect, narinder bhandari

PRIOR POSTING

Hari Om

The biggest obstacle in Karan Nirapeksha Sadhan is a human's habit of relying on mind/intellect. It is my experience that one finds it very difficult to "accept" that he is NOT mind. We have become too attached and habitual of identifying ourselves with mind.

A lot of discussion took place in the past on the subject. In fact, our Mike Keenor also took time to digest the same. But then, as we kept on insisting on the same, and as Mike is himself a very serious sadhak, I think he grasped the same, later on. I invite him to share his thoughts on the subject.

His views shall indeed be very relevant and very beneficial to our Brethren because I now find that Narinderji Bhandari also has similar difficulties. Many many others should be having similar difficulties. May be that even Vasudev Sathyanarainji ! Such sadhaks are at the core very serious and " quite pure by antahkarana" . But erroneously they reconcile to the fact that: God Realisation is a lengthy process ! As they think, so becomes the process !!

Basically, the existence of mind is for misery. ( i. e. productive of sorrow) ! The destruction of mind is for happiness. Leading the reality of the mind to decay, let one bring on the destruction of the mind. Know the mind as "existing", which is supported by happiness and sorrow and very still only on the cognition , " I am". It is the longing of the tree of worldly existence at budding time.

{ Legend has it that the Asoka tree longs for the kicks of young ladies and the Bakula for the sprinkling of mouthfuls of liquor at budding time just as pregnant women have peculiar longings during pregnancy periods. When the tree of worldly existence brings forth the diverse objects, it is the mind which arises first, which, in turn, generates the world}

They consider his mind as "lost or destroyed" whom states of happiness and misery, misfortune, pride, dullness and jubilation do not lead to difference in nature/outlook.

Thus in my notes to sadhaks , I insisted for EQUANIMITY. Nothing "destroys" ( in fact neutralises) the mind as decisively as does equanimity. Equanimity does not root out "noble virtues" out of you. There is spontaneous expression of "Daivi Sampada" ( BG 16:1/3) in a liberated soul on account of good Vaasana-s . But these do not bind the mind to worldly existence.Such a mind is ever free.

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B--------------

Namaste, Dear Ones!I want to clarify my own understanding with respect to Vyasji's post below.

"Sadhaks should note that by "action" you cannot get Paramatma. It is a law. Whatever be the "action" that you may do ! Hence "actionlessness" is MANDATORY. Once you "accept" this fact, Gita will start looking new to you. Try it."

As I understand, no one can remain without actions, actions belong to nature(body-mind), says Gita too! What is meant is that "doership" is optional, actions are not!Being doesn't require a "personal doer" to BE, and yet all "actors" and "actions" needed for Divine Play takes place on the Grand Stage of Being(SELF-Existence-Absolute)!Thus, "actionlessness" is actions without being such a personal "doer".Namaskar........Pratap Bhatt--

Hari Om

Sadhaks should note that by "action" you cannot get Paramatma. It is a law. Whatever be the "action" that you may do ! Hence "actionlessness" is MANDATORY. Once you "accept" this fact, Gita will start looking new to you. Try it.

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B-

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

Swamiji says - Where our senses and intellect do not reach is Inner Silence. Inner Silence is beyond the intellect. Decisions are made by the intellect. Where there is no mind, senses or intellect is karan nirpeksh (without dependence of instruments). The essence is without instrument (karan rahit). There is nothing to be done there. No means are required to reach the essence - it is without instruments. This essence is Inner Silence free of instruments (karan nirpeksh). It is what IS. It is the foundation of everything - the root. Meera Das, Ram Ram

----narinder is beholden to Naarad N Maharshi jee for all the love contained in his words of advice ........................ whenever narinder reads Swami Ramsukhdas jee's words, the mind goes into a fast ....... and, there is Joy in narinder's heart, ............. that invariably happens because the words of a Realised Sage flow from the Innate Silence of His being ! .......... Blessed are the sadhakas, whose Minds bow in reverence at the feet of the Saints and the Sages .......... Nanak says this Bowing is the Way................. AUM narinder----------------------

Shree Hari RAm Ram

Namaskar Ramchandraji... Welcome back ! Thank you for your beautiful submissions in Hindi over the past couple of months... particularly the poetry on Swamiji. Unfortunately we have no one right now who can translate such beautiful works... However we will certainly keep and translate in future... From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram

PRIOR POSTING

Ah, sadhaks........................ are any more words needed ................. ????????????? the words of Swami Ramsukhdas here are adequate to lead anyone into his own Being ..... ever free from any idea or dependence on the Other ! Is this not the Truth that the Swami himself is blessing us here with ! ? To renounce - no instrument is needed. It is done by the "Self" only. It is an easy and better path - "karan nirpeksh saadhan". ..............................................................AH !

Jai Jai Krishna .................. if , however the self finds inadequacy in these words ............... is unable to renounce the sense of Agency ( Doing )...............no need to worry ! ........ let the self follow the longer route of Yoga ................ Perhaps, Patanjali's Ashtang Yoga could be most appropriate , with the shalokas of the Lord's Song Celestial touching your Mind and Heart ! Step by Step By Step.................. into the realisation that you were indeed never the DOER ! And then.............. on realisation ................ One just laughs ! ... Laughter Happens ! AUM sweetest words ever ! ( .........below ).................. ! and , perhaps , amongst the fewest ! .......... for yet greater Joy, read the Swami's complete message ........... ................................................. " To renounce - no instrument is needed. It is done by the "Self" only. It is an easy and better path - 'karannirpeksh saadhan'............................."" .................................................................. ah !! a... h... u.... m ..................aum !!

AUM narinder

:Shree Hari:Ram Ram

SUMMARY : Whatever saadhan is done by the Self is "karan nirpeksh." There is no dependence on anything (instrument) or anyone. It is totally independent. The Real cannot be realised by the assistance of the unreal - it is realised by disconnection with the unreal. So separate your Self from the Unreal and you will realise the Self.For disconnection with Unreal and acceptance of the Real you do not need the assistance of any outside agency and results (success) will be quick. This is a very good discipline, free of risks "karan nirpeksh saadhan".

Saadhan By The Self

We have been discussing the topic of 'with and without the assistance of instruments' (karan saapeksh and karan nirpeksh). What you do and can do with your Self is karan nirpeksh (without the assistance of instruments) . For example your acceptance that God is mine, your belief in God, your decision not to harm or hurt anyone, decision not to lie, etc. These can all be done without the assistance of any instrument (body, person, place, etc.). You are totally independent to do these things. To attain God also you are totally independent. There is no dependence on anything or anyone.

Being dependent on instruments there are chances of one falling down from his path of practice. The one who is not dependent on instruments cannot fall down. Not dependent on instruments is "independent saadhan" (Karan Nirpeksh) and being dependent on instruments is dependent saadhan (Karan Saapeksh). God realisation is not dependent on any instrument. It is done by the Self. It happens when you leave the dependence of all instruments. It cannot happen before.

There are two methods of saadhan - (i) by doing and (ii) by not doing. There is no effort required in renunciation (not doing) of things what should not be done e.g. 'I will not hurt anyone', 'I will not lie', 'I will not abuse anyone', 'I' will not criticise anyone' - no capability is required, no effort is required.Renouncing is easier than doing. You get instant and endless peace (Gita 12:12). You have spoilt your habit - that is why it seems difficult. It is easy. It is tougher to lie than to tell the truth. You have to learn to lie, there is nothing to learn to tell the truth.

Does it take a child any effort to go to his mother's lap? We are the children of God. We can easily go back to Him. We have accepted the things that have been given to us as ours and have forgotten the one who has given them to us. Only God is ours. The more neutral you are to the world the easier it is. You get sorrows only because of your acceptance of things that are not yours (Body, World) as yours and not accepting what is yours as yours (God).

You hear these things in satsang - it is not for hearing only. It is for applying in your life. These are very helpful things for your salvation. People who do satsang must have the inner sentiments of renouncing the evil. To renounce - no instrument is needed. It is done by the "Self" only. It is an easy and better path - "karannirpeksh saadhan".

Summary of Discourse by Swami Ramsukhdasji on June 16th, 1998 at 5 a.m

Ram Ram

---PRIOR POSTING

Hari Om

This refers to learned observations of Pratapji Bhatt on thesubject. I fully agree with him as well as Naga Narainji thatultimately it is Vedanta teachings which have to be the decidingfactors. Here the beautiful example given by Mike Keenor of thetwo birds in fact straight away comes from our Upanishads (Vedanta)only. I am sure we all are unanimous on one front that the essenceof all Vedas is in Upanishads, and essence of all Upanishads is inGitaji.. With this background I address your observations.

Any science, in order to understand a subject, breaks the subjectmatter into parts. Vedanta and Gitaji also, breaks the variouscomponents of body, soul, world etc into parts. You will appreciatethat Gitaji defines/classifies Para and Apara Prakriti, Jeeva, Puresoul, mind, intellect, ego, body, Paramatma, world, Nature etc. intobasically two parts. Sentient and inert. Chetan and Jad. Sat andAsat. Not only Gita but entire Upanishads and Vedas also do so. Refer Gita'sfundamental principle " NASATO VIDYATE BHAVO , NAABHAVOVIDYATE SATAH' (Gita 2:16). There is no existence of Asat ( unreal). There isno absence of Sat( Real). Now all Vedas, Upanishads, Gita include Pure soul /Paramatma as Sat, Jeevatma in two parts - one part of Sat , another part of Asatdue to forming an affinity with Asat. Half this, half that say. That is Ego. InEgo when you remove ASAT part, you have broken the affinity with theworld/matter/nature/body. Only God or Self is remains. The intellect, mind, bodyfunctioning, actions, karmas all changeautomatically. It is a settled principle as per Vedanta thatIntellect, Mind, Chitta form part of "Subtle body". Ego is "causalbody" and remaining body like hand, eye, legs etc are part of "grossbody". (We should admire the precision with which our Scriptureshave broken the body into various segments). These threebodies in Upanishads have been called - "KOSHAS " . The nearest tothe Soul is Ego which, resides in CAUSAL BODY. Another name ofcausal body given in Upanishads is " AGYAANMAYA KOSHA' (IgnoranceZone). In ego as stated earlier Jeeva is sitting forming an affinitywith the matter. Hence ignorance lies not in mind but in Jeeva.Jeeva dispels the ignorance by breaking affinity with the world. MEAND MINE both reside in Ego . Likings and dislikings reside in Ego.How can "mineness" reside in mind? It resides in Jeeva not in mind.Jeeva is DOER. Not the mind. Jeeva suffers, the continuous cycle ofbirth and death. Jeeva goes to hell, heaven, etc. Not the mind orintellect or eyes, or ears. They are consigned to the flames themoment Jeeva leaves the body. The same mind stops functioning. Sameeyes stop seeing. It proves that the very basis of mind, intellectetc is Jeeva (Self). Hence the difference between Jeevaand Jagat is obvious. It is precisely therefore in Vedanta, so muchimportance has been given to CONSCIENCE (Viveka) ï¿½ whichDISCRIMINATES. We must discriminate. We cant reach anywhere if wedon't discriminate mind with self, sat and asat, jad( inert) andChetan ( sentient). When all Vedas do that, Upanishads do that,Gita does that, what is the problem in our doing that?

Once it is clear that next to Soul is Ego - causal body. Ego controls Subtlebody and subtle body controls gross body ï¿½ then this concept put forwardbecomes easy to follow.The problem is that we don't classify. We have become too accustomedto identify ourselves with asat / with mind. Anything will come inmind only. Where else it can go in this body ? Even God Realisationwill come in mind only. So what? That does not make a machine, aninert tool, mind that important. If the KARTA (Doer) changes, theactions/thoughts automatically change - it is a law. I need notexplain it in detail to you. You know that. If we look at our directexperiences, it will get established. It is our direct experiencethat if Intellect rejects anything, the mind leaves that thought.Direct experience. So mind is not independent - it gets proven. Itacts under control of intellect. It cannot be DOER. Only doersuffers - it is a law !

As per VEDANTA, the KARTA has to be INDEPENDENT ALWAYS. Is mindindependent? Does not mind work under commands of Intellect? Theyare inert and tools. They change automatically - I REPEATAUTOMATICALLY - when KARTA changes. Now, Pratapji, tell me where isthe need of running after the mind, training it, refining it, etc.The Karan Nirapeksha Saadhans, like Acceptance, Surrender, Devotion,Prem, Karma Yoga, Bhakti Yoga, Jnana Yoga - they attack and addressthe KARTA, the Jeevatma straight away. Once Jeeva understands, andchanges his mine ness (Which so far was with the world) ,everything changes automatically.

Kindly in the interest of all sadhaks ponder over what I have statedabove and let them know your views on the subject. You cando so.

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B--------------------------------Priya Sadhaks

Tulsidasji Maharaj told that bhajan can be done by mind only. Where? Which Doha?

Dalmiaji Pls clarify .

RamchandraWe are not here to agree or disagree to any specific point of view.We are here to assist each other in our path to God realisation.

As far as I am concerned, I can only say that the starting point ofthis journey is the desire to realise God. The duration of thejourney will depend on the intensity of that desire.

Basically as per my understanding, Gitaji has shown three paths (Ido not want to go into the merit of this statement). These areGyan Yog (Disicpline of Knowledge); Karma Yog (Discipline of Selfless Service);Bhakti Yog (Discipline of Devotion and Love)These paths are all leading to the same goal. None of these pathscan be said to be incomplete. The only difference is that thesepaths are meant for different people based on their individualnature. All are allowed to choose their own path based on what theythink suits them and see how they are progressing.

I do not want people to spend their time on my observations made(not questions raised) in my earlier postings. The simple reason isthat their path seems to be different from the one chosen by me andI do not have any intention in deviating from that path as much asthey are not interested in deviating from their's. I must apologiseto Shri Ramchandra for not obliging him by answering his questions.

Once again, my Salutations to all who showered their mercy on me. Ihope they will continue to do so in future as well.

A.H.Dalmia

Re: Reply to new question from Mahalaksmi Dasi

Jai Shri Krishna,

Mahalakshmi Dasi may please note that Krishna confirms in Gita 10:22that amongst sense organs I am mind ï¿½ "Indriyanaam Manaschasmi".

Desire is in Jeeva only, soul is desireless. The pure soul becomesJeeva because of the assumed affinity with the body, world etc. Themoment Jeeva leaves this assumed affinity with the body, world etc.it becomes pure soul, which is part of the Paramaatma.

Mahalakshmi Dasi has beautifully touched upon the difference betweenpurified desire and material desire. The desires for perishableworldly things (arising due to the assumed affinity with the bodyand world) are known as material desires. They are binding and yieldfruits. However, the purified desires are like roasted seeds ï¿½ whichdo not have any binding power and do not yield any fruits.

Narayan Narayan

Rajendra J Bohra--------------------------Shree Hari-

Regarding Vaysji answers Q 1-----Q 10 in general not specific. Aconstant them is the mind is a medium/ mirror/ machine etc.Reasonable arguments have been put forward. (I am thinking aloud hereas it were). Now several things come to mind, first one is that mindappears to be a universal, no mind can be different it simply reflectsthe intellect, ( a computer can serve thousands of users, or manypeople can look at the same mirror, but see different images depending wherethey stand).Now if the mind is a tool of the intellect, as stated. Then, as isknown, certain spiritual souls develop as Vaysji noted, occultpowers. And these powers perceived by that person, one presumes in the mind, butit does not seem to be a function of the intellect. In fact one can see withoutintellectual input,(seeing is not looking).Open eyed mediators can see, but take no involvement. (I think thelatest Sadhaka post is touching on my last thoughts).I hope you understand these are thoughts not arguments, conundrums inmy mind, (do I own that mind hmmm?)I would deeply appreciate any wise council on my conundrums.

With Respect and Divine Love,

Mike.(Mike Keenor)

===========================================================

PREVIOUS POSTINGHari Om

Here is verse by verse answers to Dalmiaji's queries. He raisedspecific questions against each verse, hence answers are with eachverse only. Later on conclusions will be given.

Q 1 - 2:38 . WHERE DO WE FEEL 'SUKH AND DUKH' ?.Ans :- Already explained. Refer Gita 13:20. Self (Jeeva)experiences pleasures and pains. Mind is just a mirror / tool forreflection or medium to self here. Equanimity enters the mind. Godis Equanimous. Self is by very nature Equanimous.

Q 2 -3:7 /.3 :37 . WHERE DOES 'KAMANA' RESIDE ?. Ans:- Kaamna (Desire) resides in Karta ï¿½ doer- not in mind. ( In Ego-WhereKarta with affinity of Prakrati resides in Jeeva Form- likings anddislikings reside in Ego) . Karta suffers the results in the form ofpleasures and pains. Kaamna ( desire) can not reside in machinecalled mind. Refer Gita 13:20. Only doer suffers? Is not it?

Q 3 - 4: 42 WHERE DOES 'AGAYN' RESIDE.? Ans. Ignorance ( Agyaan)resides in causal body- Ego- where Jeeva is sitting forming anaffinity with Nature. Mind is simply reflecting as a medium. Jeevais knowledgeable or ignorant. Mind can neither be knowledgeable orignorant. It is a machine like a computer or air craft. Mind's jobis to think in accordance with instructions of Intellect. Does notcomputer process commands? Is computer ignorant or knowledgeable?

Q 4- 6: 36. EVEN GOD DECLARES THAT THE PERSON WHO DOES NOT HAVECONTROL OVER HIS MIND, WILL NOT BE ABLE TO ACHIEVE ME. ? Ans: Thisverse is in relation to Karan Saapeksha Saadhan viz Dhyaan Yogaonly. We are discussing at present Karan Nirapeksha sadhan. Ifrequired I will observe on it separately. Not now.

Q 5 ï¿½ 8 : 5. AT THE TIME OF DEATH HE WHO REMEMBERS ME ?.WHERE DO WEREMEMBER FROM ?. IT IS THE MIND !. Ans: Remembrance at the time ofdeath is possible only when you take Karan Nirapeksha sadhan ofacceptance. Refer also advice of Krishna to Arjuna in this regard in8:7- continuous remembering . Karta (self) will cause entry ofremembrance into mind. Mind is only a medium here ! More discussionswill be there on this when 9:34, and 12:2/8 are discussed. Why inevery mind at the time of death , the remembrance of God does notcome ? Mind is same everywhere. Here Jeeva is of essence. Not theinnocent machine called Mind. According to you who remembers God atthe last moment ? Jeeva or Mind? If mind remembers then who will getliberated?

Q 6- 8:14 "ANANYA CHETA SATATAM". GOD ORDERS TO REMEMBER HIM WITHNO DISTRACTIONS. WHERE DO WE REMEMBER FROM ?. IT IS THE MIND !. Ans -Same as above. Mind is only a medium here. A mirror. I will discussthis separately in detail with 9:34 etc

Q 7- 13 :21 "PURUSHAH PRAKRITISTHO HI". WE GET ATTACHED TO THE WORLDBY BEING EXTROVERT. THIS NEEDS TO BE CURBED BY MAKING MINDINTROVERT. Ans Both Extrovert and Introvert are positioning of Mind.By being introvert, that PURUSHA which is referred here, doesnotcease to be out of Prakriti. Do you agree that Purusha and Prakritiare separate ? Yes- you must. Then how change of position of mindchanges the position of Purusha ? Purusha ( Jeevatma) has formedaffinity with matter. Jeevatma has to withdraw. Upon withdrawal byPurusha only change in mind by way of Equanimity, by becomingSattva/ Being etc will arise. Many times you in practical lifebecome introvert. Does at that time Purusha ceases to be connectedwith matter?

Q 8- 13 :28 "SAMAM PASHYANHI SARVATRA". WE NEED TO SEE GOD IN ALLBEINGS. THIS IS NOT BY OUR EYES BUT BY OUR MIND. Ans- Yeah. But mindthere only reflects the equanimity which has arisen due to change inJeeva. Mind is only a mirror here.

Q 9- 14 :25 " MAM CHA YO AVYABHICHRENA". ONE WHO DOES MY UNDILUTEDBHAKTI... HERE AGAIN MIND COMES. Ans- Mind as a mirror shall comeinto picture even when Paramatma Realisation enters the Jeeva oreven when you get liberation with body. Refer my earlier postingBhakti is done by SELF not by mind. NOTE THIS THING CATEGORICALLYTHAT BHAKTI AND SERVICE CAN NEVER BE DONE BY MIND. It is always doneby Self. BHAKTA AND SADHAK ARE ALWAYS UNMANIFEST- BHAAV SHARIRAS. Iwill take up this subject in more detail. All of your new postingissues will get clarified.Whether it is Ramcharitmanas issue, orKapil Bhagwaan reference or Chaitnya Mahaprabhu sayings, or MiraBaai, or Bhooribaiji.THEY ALL ARE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT. Everythingwhich you have written is right, except your conclusions that Bhajanhappens from mind. Wrong. Show me a single reference by them wherethey have said Bhajan is done by mind. Then what SELF does, thenLiberation also should be of body/mind only ï¿½ where does thenJivatma comes int picture? Wrong. Also the last para of yourposting. It is so unnecessary Anyway, I am duty bound to reply.