Guest guest Posted August 25, 2008 Report Share Posted August 25, 2008 Shree Hari Ram Ram Due to significant backlog of questions we are posting new questions a little more frequently over the next week or two. Please keep responses concise and to the point, limiting them to half a page. Now onwards, instead of editing as appropriate, moderators will be rejecting and requesting new postings. Thank you all for your participation. Gita Talk Moderators Ram Ram -------------------------------- Namaste! I would like to know how one can change one's gunas (qualities, mode of nature). (Do the words 'change one's gunas' (even make sense?) To start with, we are told that everyone is born with a certain proportion of each guna. Next, we learn that the combination of gunas we possess determines our actions and attitudes i.e. our " nature " . Much of that would be what we call " instinct " and defines us. In that case, do we have any freedom in choosing our actions and attitudes? If we are locked into our conduct, how can a person with high tamas (Inertia or ignorance)ever become sattvik (goodness, purity)? However, we are also told that the intellect reigns over all other Sankhya elements. Is it then possible for the intellect to assert control over a guna-induced behavior and make a person do the right (i.e sattvik or dharmic) thing? In essence, the intellect has to make a person do that which may be against his or her " nature " . Is this possible? How can one develop this ability? I guess I am not clear about the relationship between the gunas and the intellect. Can someone exlain this? Thanks! Srinivas Vuppuluri --------------------------- Please review Gita Talk Guidelines before posting a question or responses at: /message/1535 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 26, 2008 Report Share Posted August 26, 2008 Namaste! I would like to know how one can change one's gunas (qualities, mode of nature). (Do the words 'change one's gunas' (even make sense?) Do we have any freedom in choosing our actions and attitudes? If we are locked into our conduct, how can a person with high tamas (Inertia or ignorance)ever become sattvik (goodness, purity)? However, we are also told that the intellect reigns over all other Sankhya elements. Is it then possible for the intellect to assert control over a guna-induced behavior and make a person do the right (i.e sattvik or dharmic) thing? In essence, the intellect has to make a person do that which may be against his or her " nature " . Is this possible? How can one develop this ability? I guess I am not clear about the relationship between the gunas and the intellect. Can someone explain this? Thanks! Srinivas Vuppuluri --------------------------- NEW POSTING Hari Om Even Intellect gets into spell of Gunas. Refer Gita 18:30 to 32. This entire universe is evolution of Gunas only. Hence to single out intellect alone will not help. Refer Gita 7:14. These three gunas are powers of Maya. You can conquer them only by surrendering to God. (7:14) But your question/problem in fact is not Gunas. ( I guess so). It is " svabhaav " / habits, which we are born with due to our past deeds. Please note only in human birth you can change /improve your svabhav/habits/tendencies/ automaticness of karmas by you- except those which happen involuntarily to make you reap the results of past karmas.. In no other form of life you can change/improve your svabhav/habits- you can do so only in human life. There it is not intellect but it is jeeva himself who plays the greater role. No svabhav can force you to do forbidden acts- be sure on that. It is also true that based on your karmas , sometimes your intellect gets out of your control and forcefully certain actions are made by the body to punish/reward the jeeva (you) as per his past deeds. That is another subject- operation of Law of Karma. The best way to remove a fault of habits is not to accept it at all in oneself. It will die its natural death. A habit acquires strength only when you accept it as your habit. Ignore, donot believe say for example - " I am angry " or " I am sinful " or " I am greedy " or " I am hot headed " . Simply do not believe that. They will leave you. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B " As fire is covered by smoke, as a mirror by dust, and as an embryo by placenta, so is this (knowledge) concealed by desire. (Gita 3:38) " dhoomenaavriyate vahniryathaadarso malena ca yatholbenaavrato garbhastathaa tenedamaavrtam. " (Gita 3:38) From the above shlok of Gita (3-38), it is clear that we have to do nothing but clean the dust, which has collected in our mind. In my view one should not think much, except that I am of God, for God and by God. Once we accept (just understanding is not enough) this then we don't need much clarification. Which-ever 'Guna' and what-ever be the amount, it doesn't matter. All these are worldly thing. These things matter when we are related to worldly people. When it comes to God, it doesn't matter. We don't need any 'Guna' to know Him. Just accept the only truth of this world. Ram Ram Ashok Goenka ------------------------------ The present concern is - 'do we have any freedom in choosing our actions and attitudes i.e our " nature " --- ' is it possible to go against his or her nature? How? Yes. Everybody is having freedom in choosing their actions and attitudes i.e " nature " . It is possible to go against his or her nature. Kadham chaitaamstreengunanativartate ? Arjuna questioned ' and how Lord, does one rise above the three Gunaas or nature ? The reply is 'Sa gunaansamatityitabrhmabhuuyaayakalpate' ,He too who, constantly worships me through Yoga of devotion ,transending these three gunaas, he becomes eligible for attaining the Saught. 'Ititegnanamaaghyaatam - Yadhechasitadhaakuru' After telling all the yogaas Krishna,the international councillor asked to 'do as you like after fully pondering over it, giving a choice in choosing ones actins and attitudes. Mr. Maareecharaakshasa changed his actions and attitude after coming into contact with Rama and transformed himself as 'Maareechamaharshi' and tried to enlighten Ravana on Divinity and Humanity and dhaarmic life. 'Nature is a mutable cloud which is always and never the same' -- R.W. Emerson (1803 - 1882) " Nature's mighty law is change " - Robert Burns (1789 - 1796 ) golianjaneyulu ------------------------------ Dear friends, There is a whole chapter on the three Gunas in the Bhagavad Gita --- chapter 17 with 28 verses. Please go through this chapter carefully. May be you should read this chapter several times to get the deeper meaning---meanwhile read more than one commentary available to you-- -Do not restrict to only one of the commentaries, such as that of Adi Sankara...read with open mind----the required knowledge and understanding will ensue by Divine Grace.... Regards, In Sai Smaran, N K Srinivasan ------------------------------- Please review Gita Talk Guidelines before posting a question or responses at: /message/1535 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 27, 2008 Report Share Posted August 27, 2008 Namaste! I would like to know how one can change one's gunas (qualities, mode of nature). (Do the words 'change one's gunas' (even make sense?) Do we have any freedom in choosing our actions and attitudes? If we are locked into our conduct, how can a person with high tamas (Inertia or ignorance)ever become sattvik (goodness, purity)? However, we are also told that the intellect reigns over all other Sankhya elements. Is it then possible for the intellect to assert control over a guna-induced behavior and make a person do the right (i.e sattvik or dharmic) thing? In essence, the intellect has to make a person do that which may be against his or her " nature " . Is this possible? How can one develop this ability? I guess I am not clear about the relationship between the gunas and the intellect. Can someone explain this? Thanks! Srinivas Vuppuluri --------------------------- NEW POSTING Hari Om I fully agree with Ashokji Goenka. These Gunas remain as a law in every minutest form of nature. Be it Karta, Karma, Intellect, Ego, Mind, Dhaarana (adoption power)-etc. Even " Gunateet " Mahatmas( beyond Gunas) have these Gunas in them. That is why when Arjuna asked Lord about the conduct of such " Gunateet " ( people who are beyond Gunas) people in 14:21 , Lord stated in 14:22/23 that they see Gunas getting consumed by Gunas and - " yoav tisthati nengate " (14:23). They remain/get positioned in the state of indifference to the Gunas. " Udaasin " - non caring, indifferent, unruffled, unimpacted - they remain with reference to the Gunas. Ignorance by way of non acceptance of bad habits in yourself therefore is the best way to conquer your " svabhaav " . Of course that becomes very easy when you accept firmly your " mineness " with God. It is a law that whatever rises , sets. When anger, greed, bouts of violence etc arise in you - you should not carried away, you should remain unruffled, not accept them as a part of your " self " - they will die natural death. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ---------------------------- There are four things that come between 'Jeeva' and 'Atma'. These are man (mind), buddhi (intellect0, Chitta (I do not know the right English word for this. Perhaps we can call it wisdom) and 'Ahankar'. These four constitute 'Jeeva'. Only when we are able to cross (anihilate) all these, we will realise God. So long as we are Jeeva, we need to make an effort to realise God. It may be widely believed that we can pursue God only when we are 'Sattwik'. This may not be wholly true, because as per God himself, every one has an equal right to achieve Him. Besides, God is beyond any Gunas. Then where do we start? According to me starting point of this journey is the desire to realise God. This is very clear from your question that you want to start the journey. The next step is to attack the first impediment, which is the mind. Mind is perhaps the greatest creation of nature. It has a tendency to become what ever company it keeps. Currently we keep the company of the world. So it becomes worldly. So let us first change this company. Let us start indulging in literature, which helps us to move in that direction. Also, let us start keeping company of such people, who are moving in this line. This, however, can be dangerous because in today's world, every one who is a kathakar (or a preacher) proclaims himself as 'Siddha'. The real test in such a situation would be to assess if this person has any lust for money. If yes, he can't help us as God can't be purchased with money. In pursuit of God, please ignore what Gunas (prakrity, svabhaav) we are born with. No amount of effort, including wishing them away (believing that these are not in us) will help. But our devotion will automatically take care of that. We should just proceed. I would like to draw your attention to the fact that I have not used the word " you " , while addressing your question. This is because we are all in the same boat. Hence this answer is for all of us including myself to remember again and again. A.H.Dalmia ------------------------- Dandavat pranams.... In regard to the question by Srinivas, a major consideration in changing one's gunas is the mercy of the Lord, then our own individual desire. There is a story in the Vedas of Lord Indra, questioning how it is that illusion can so completely cover the living entity. He was then given a chance to experience, in a moments time (as when the demigods of the higher realm come here, the time is different, an entire live span here is merely a few moments to them) what was life in a hog's body. Living in the body of a hog, enjoying the delicacy of eating stool, having sexual relations with any other pig, whether sister, mother or daughter.....he became very attached to his enjoyments. When his preceptor (I am not recalling the name of who gave him this lesson) came before him, at the end of his life, and said, " You are actually the king of heaven, Indradeva....please leave this situation and come back to heaven " .....Indra in the form of a pig refused. He said, " I am very happy here....I am enjoying eating stool, and being the king of this pen. " Then, one by one, his pig mother, sisters, brothers, all pigs were taken to be slaughtered... when he saw it was his turn, finally he agreed, " Maybe I should return to heaven. " The point is that maya is very very powerful....the illusory energy causes us to feel comfortable so readily.....even when the activities or life style that we may have is abominable. By association of sadhus, coupled with our own desire, we can rise above the gunas. When we meet an individual who is steeped in love, whose heart is overflowing with a sense of happiness stemming from devotion, that is inspiring. Such great souls are rare, but when found, by serving them, one gains a desire and a feeling of that love, whereby all lower happiness is able to be rejected. There is also examples of mother monkey.....if she is jumping from tree to tree, and her baby does not hold on for dear life, baby will be left behind. So, similarly we must find a preceptor (s), one who can give us divine inspiration, and hold tightly for dear life.....to instructions, to the guidance, to the desire, above all, to be a servant rather than an enjoyer of the facilities given by the Lord. There is chapter in Gita on the modes of nature....very good chapter to study. my respects to all, mahalaksmi Dasi ------------------------- Swabhaav or Guna are independent sub-conscious mind (manah) like underground subway, and intellect (buddhi) is a sort of manifested mind in contemporary reality like visible part of entrance and exit of subway. In another example, seed of lemon is swabhaav or guna and it manifests in nature according to content in the seed. So guna or the swabhaav of lemon cannot be changed by applying any techniques on its intellect or manifested component. No one can make a lemon into growing as mango irrespective of how much fertilizer or water is applied. So changing the swabhaav by external influence is highly unlikely, and even if it occurs, it returns to its own when cooled off. But the lemon can itself and independently can transform itself not by learning but by thinking and detachment from influence of the nature. This process in solitude and self determination is called Yoga. Manah or sub-conscious mind is produced by sankalp or obligation or something incorrect, and this is the reason of taking birth. After the manah is born as life with breath then, condition of manah is like bottled water which is not a free water and it gets manufacture and expiry date printed on it. So the bottled water has certain limitation of the sankalp that it cannot leave half way. In the period of bondage, the water has a given property and function thus, this is helplessness of everyones' life and work. Best regards K G (Krishna Gopal) ------------------------- Sai ram, I congratulate all for this wonderful satsang online. it is a wonderful learning forum. Regarding this question on Guna & Intellect. Allow me to first put these in one language Buddhi is referred to as Intellect and Gun (a) is attribute . Now we can see the difference - Buddhi Vs Guna. Intellect Vs Attribute. It is very important to define the words for our understanding. Attributes or Gunas are the qualities which justify the form or existence. Like, to roar is a attribute of Lion, or... faithfulness is Dogs guna, flickering mind is attribute of monkey; ... similarly we need to identify the attributes or Gunas of Human beings which qualify us to become a Human (they are Sathya, Dharma, Shanti, Prema & Ahimsa). Once we know the basic and true attribute of a being then we can understand that we don't have to worry about 'changing' or 'acquiring' gunas. These are latent and potent in each one of us. the dust of life experience has covered and made us forget it. Sometime the illusion is so strong that we accept the cover (dust) to be our true attributes. and later we find the need to change or acquire... the whole exercise thus is, to remind ourselves of our true Gunas and remove the dust of ignorance or others gunas (jealousy, pride, ego, anger etc).. Buddhi or Intellect is the representative of the self in this physical world, which helps us recognising and understanding our true nature (Gunas). It is buddhi which uses the power of discrimination (exclusively bestowed on Humans) to acknowledge and follow the true path. if a tiger cub being brought up with sheep thinks that it is also a sheep... it is ignorance. it does not need to acquire any extra qualities to become a tiger. It is just a matter of acknowledging its true nature. And he will be a Tiger instantly, for He always was a Tiger. So are we divine, so are we human. waiting for the moment to acknowledge our Divine self/ nature / Guna... then there will be no change or acquiring required. Lastly, it is important to understand that all these question arise out of duality - feeling of separation from the ones own true self. When we realise that we are ONE then the life will be very pleasant. the qualities like Satva, Rajas and Tamas are just an expression of our distance from our own self. A Satvik is one who is closest to his own being (Gunas) and Tamsik is the farthest... enjoy the journey... from God to God...and with God. loving sai ram abhimanyu kaul --------------------------- PREVIOUS POSTING Hari Om Even Intellect gets into spell of Gunas. Refer Gita 18:30 to 32. This entire universe is evolution of Gunas only. Hence to single out intellect alone will not help. Refer Gita 7:14. These three gunas are powers of Maya. You can conquer them only by surrendering to God. (7:14) But your question/problem in fact is not Gunas. ( I guess so). It is " svabhaav " / habits, which we are born with due to our past deeds. Please note only in human birth you can change /improve your svabhav/habits/tendencies/ automaticness of karmas by you- except those which happen involuntarily to make you reap the results of past karmas.. In no other form of life you can change/improve your svabhav/habits- you can do so only in human life. There it is not intellect but it is jeeva himself who plays the greater role. No svabhav can force you to do forbidden acts- be sure on that. It is also true that based on your karmas , sometimes your intellect gets out of your control and forcefully certain actions are made by the body to punish/reward the jeeva (you) as per his past deeds. That is another subject- operation of Law of Karma. The best way to remove a fault of habits is not to accept it at all in oneself. It will die its natural death. A habit acquires strength only when you accept it as your habit. Ignore, donot believe say for example - " I am angry " or " I am sinful " or " I am greedy " or " I am hot headed " . Simply do not believe that. They will leave you. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B " As fire is covered by smoke, as a mirror by dust, and as an embryo by placenta, so is this (knowledge) concealed by desire. (Gita 3:38) " dhoomenaavriyate vahniryathaadarso malena ca yatholbenaavrato garbhastathaa tenedamaavrtam. " (Gita 3:38) From the above shlok of Gita (3-38), it is clear that we have to do nothing but clean the dust, which has collected in our mind. In my view one should not think much, except that I am of God, for God and by God. Once we accept (just understanding is not enough) this then we don't need much clarification. Which-ever 'Guna' and what-ever be the amount, it doesn't matter. All these are worldly thing. These things matter when we are related to worldly people. When it comes to God, it doesn't matter. We don't need any 'Guna' to know Him. Just accept the only truth of this world. Ram Ram Ashok Goenka ------------------------------ The present concern is - 'do we have any freedom in choosing our actions and attitudes i.e our " nature " --- ' is it possible to go against his or her nature? How? Yes. Everybody is having freedom in choosing their actions and attitudes i.e " nature " . It is possible to go against his or her nature. Kadham chaitaamstreengunanativartate ? Arjuna questioned ' and how Lord, does one rise above the three Gunaas or nature ? The reply is 'Sa gunaansamatityitabrhmabhuuyaayakalpate' ,He too who, constantly worships me through Yoga of devotion ,transending these three gunaas, he becomes eligible for attaining the Saught. 'Ititegnanamaaghyaatam - Yadhechasitadhaakuru' After telling all the yogaas Krishna,the international councillor asked to 'do as you like after fully pondering over it, giving a choice in choosing ones actins and attitudes. Mr. Maareecharaakshasa changed his actions and attitude after coming into contact with Rama and transformed himself as 'Maareechamaharshi' and tried to enlighten Ravana on Divinity and Humanity and dhaarmic life. 'Nature is a mutable cloud which is always and never the same' -- R.W. Emerson (1803 - 1882) " Nature's mighty law is change " - Robert Burns (1789 - 1796 ) golianjaneyulu ------------------------------ Dear friends, There is a whole chapter on the three Gunas in the Bhagavad Gita --- chapter 17 with 28 verses. Please go through this chapter carefully. May be you should read this chapter several times to get the deeper meaning---meanwhile read more than one commentary available to you-- -Do not restrict to only one of the commentaries, such as that of Adi Sankara...read with open mind----the required knowledge and understanding will ensue by Divine Grace.... Regards, In Sai Smaran, N K Srinivasan ------------------------------- Please review Gita Talk Guidelines before posting a question or responses at: /message/1535 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 27, 2008 Report Share Posted August 27, 2008 Namaste! I would like to know how one can change one's gunas (qualities, mode of nature). (Do the words 'change one's gunas' (even make sense?) Do we have any freedom in choosing our actions and attitudes? If we are locked into our conduct, how can a person with high tamas (Inertia or ignorance)ever become sattvik (goodness, purity)? However, we are also told that the intellect reigns over all other Sankhya elements. Is it then possible for the intellect to assert control over a guna-induced behavior and make a person do the right (i.e sattvik or dharmic) thing? In essence, the intellect has to make a person do that which may be against his or her " nature " . Is this possible? How can one develop this ability? I guess I am not clear about the relationship between the gunas and the intellect. Can someone explain this? Thanks! Srinivas Vuppuluri --------------------------- NEW POSTING Hari Om The question was " How one can change one's gunas? " Answer is - turn towards the God, surrender to Him. This human life has been given only for God Realisation. The moment you turn towards God, " sadgunas and sadaachaar " will automatically start manifesting in you. You develop " durgunas " ( bad attributes, rajasic/tamasic svabhav) only when your face is towards the world. Your " character " thus gets developed/ deteriorated based on this. It is our direct experience that more and more we renounce the desire for worldly things , more and more sadgunas come into us - peace, equanimity, fearlessness, truthfulness, austerities, non violence etc etc. More and more we desire worldly things , more and more " durgunas " , turmoil, inequality, bias, sorrows, tensions, anger, greed , pride etc come into us. Hence simple answer is that rather than analysing gunas, corelating it with intellect etc, simply turn towards the God. If due to past deeds, rajasic and tamasic gunas, haunt you - then just ignore them , just don't accept them as part of your " svabhav " ( habit- the literal meaning of svabhaav is " own inner expression " , own is self , jeeva himself ), just don't accept it as your habit at all - " udaasinvadaasinah " ... " yoava tishthati nengate " ( Gita 14:23) Remaining indifferent to Gunas one should remain positioned unruffled by them. If some body says , no you can't whisk away Gunas, you are bound by them, you can't afford not to take notice of them - simply don't believe him. Be sure that nothing else can help you in overcoming these gunas except BY NOT ACCEPTING THEM IN YOU. This is Gita teaching, not an individual bound by gunas teaching.. Lord Krishna says so. Reason is that these three gunas - sattwik, rajasic and tamasic - they haunt you even after You have " realised the Truth/ have become Gunateet( beyond Gunas) " as is evidenced by Gita 14:22. You have to ignore them- there is no choice. You can overcome them only by not accepting them in you- you are capable to do that- nothing else you can do with respect to Gunas. Believe in Gita , Saints and Sages, and of course on your " CONSCIENCE " - which appears to many as Intellect, but which is much much higher and different element than Intellect. Believe on your conscience not on your intellect. With the above your question stands fully answered. Some of your questions were answered in previous posting also by me and by many other fellow sadhaks. Let us know in case you still need clarifications. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ---------------------------- Many of the fellow travellers have to get indight of terms like Guna/ bhaav (interactive property), swabhaav (independent nature) and varna (color, personality trait). These are highly specialized words in the Bhagwat Gita and needed an explanation. In simple term, guna is interactivity or a manner in which one individual responds or reacts to or with another individual or condition. High school Chemistry is really very useful for the distinction between guna and swabhaav. Na is sodium which is highly reactive, inflamable and cannot be found uncared in nature or its independent state. Cl or chlorine is another reactive gas and it is hazardous to human, because it is violent in a similar way as sodium. And Na and Cl when combined together as common salt which is very common and not harmful. This means, swabhaav of each of Na and Cl are highly violent in independent form, but Na Cl (common salt), has no swabhaav as it is a compound; and 'swa' (self or independent nature of each ) does not exist. The guna/ bhaav of Na Cl is not harmful although each of the element Na and Cl have dangerous swabhaav. But look here! H Cl is also a compound made of H hydrogen and Cl chlorine, but this is an acid and it is highly corrosive in the guna or bhaav. Cl or chlorine is calm (in NaCl) with Na but does not remain that calm (HCl) with H. This means, individual character in independent state, and in organization A and organization B and organization C can be different. Anguli maal was a dacoit but when combined with Buddha, he was turned into a saint. Crimimal and politician nexus in India is similarly highly deadly. Guna is human chemistry. Now take example of Au or gold. This is a metal which is found free and independent in nature. Like a sanyaasi, it does not changes its swabhaav and remains pure whereever it remains and nonreactive in all condition. But it is highly sensitive and so, used as conductor of signal in telecommunication. So, this metal has very litte guna or is nirgun like Sri Ram and remains always free and independent in all state and never forms compound. Here the guna (reactivity) does not deteriorate swabhaav (self nature). Bhagwat Gita says about Nirgun state of the brahman and RamCharit Maanas says similarly about Ramman kaamari shaiyam bhavbhay harnam kaal mattebh singham, yogindram zyan gamyam, guna nidhi vigitam, nirgunam nirvikaram. In the future, I will even write the three rules of reactivity or three guna (bhaav or vikaar) or tri shool ( sat, raj and tam) held in hand of Shiva. best regards K G (Krishna Gopal) ============================================================ PREVIOUS POSTING Hari Om I fully agree with Ashokji Goenka. These Gunas remain as a law in every minutest form of nature. Be it Karta, Karma, Intellect, Ego, Mind, Dhaarana (adoption power)-etc. Even " Gunateet " Mahatmas( beyond Gunas) have these Gunas in them. That is why when Arjuna asked Lord about the conduct of such " Gunateet " ( people who are beyond Gunas) people in 14:21 , Lord stated in 14:22/23 that they see Gunas getting consumed by Gunas and - " yoav tisthati nengate " (14:23). They remain/get positioned in the state of indifference to the Gunas. " Udaasin " - non caring, indifferent, unruffled, unimpacted - they remain with reference to the Gunas. Ignorance by way of non acceptance of bad habits in yourself therefore is the best way to conquer your " svabhaav " . Of course that becomes very easy when you accept firmly your " mineness " with God. It is a law that whatever rises , sets. When anger, greed, bouts of violence etc arise in you - you should not carried away, you should remain unruffled, not accept them as a part of your " self " - they will die natural death. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ---------------------------- There are four things that come between 'Jeeva' and 'Atma'. These are man (mind), buddhi (intellect0, Chitta (I do not know the right English word for this. Perhaps we can call it wisdom) and 'Ahankar'. These four constitute 'Jeeva'. Only when we are able to cross (anihilate) all these, we will realise God. So long as we are Jeeva, we need to make an effort to realise God. It may be widely believed that we can pursue God only when we are 'Sattwik'. This may not be wholly true, because as per God himself, every one has an equal right to achieve Him. Besides, God is beyond any Gunas. Then where do we start? According to me starting point of this journey is the desire to realise God. This is very clear from your question that you want to start the journey. The next step is to attack the first impediment, which is the mind. Mind is perhaps the greatest creation of nature. It has a tendency to become what ever company it keeps. Currently we keep the company of the world. So it becomes worldly. So let us first change this company. Let us start indulging in literature, which helps us to move in that direction. Also, let us start keeping company of such people, who are moving in this line. This, however, can be dangerous because in today's world, every one who is a kathakar (or a preacher) proclaims himself as 'Siddha'. The real test in such a situation would be to assess if this person has any lust for money. If yes, he can't help us as God can't be purchased with money. In pursuit of God, please ignore what Gunas (prakrity, svabhaav) we are born with. No amount of effort, including wishing them away (believing that these are not in us) will help. But our devotion will automatically take care of that. We should just proceed. I would like to draw your attention to the fact that I have not used the word " you " , while addressing your question. This is because we are all in the same boat. Hence this answer is for all of us including myself to remember again and again. A.H.Dalmia ------------------------- Dandavat pranams.... In regard to the question by Srinivas, a major consideration in changing one's gunas is the mercy of the Lord, then our own individual desire. There is a story in the Vedas of Lord Indra, questioning how it is that illusion can so completely cover the living entity. He was then given a chance to experience, in a moments time (as when the demigods of the higher realm come here, the time is different, an entire live span here is merely a few moments to them) what was life in a hog's body. Living in the body of a hog, enjoying the delicacy of eating stool, having sexual relations with any other pig, whether sister, mother or daughter.....he became very attached to his enjoyments. When his preceptor (I am not recalling the name of who gave him this lesson) came before him, at the end of his life, and said, " You are actually the king of heaven, Indradeva....please leave this situation and come back to heaven " .....Indra in the form of a pig refused. He said, " I am very happy here....I am enjoying eating stool, and being the king of this pen. " Then, one by one, his pig mother, sisters, brothers, all pigs were taken to be slaughtered... when he saw it was his turn, finally he agreed, " Maybe I should return to heaven. " The point is that maya is very very powerful....the illusory energy causes us to feel comfortable so readily.....even when the activities or life style that we may have is abominable. By association of sadhus, coupled with our own desire, we can rise above the gunas. When we meet an individual who is steeped in love, whose heart is overflowing with a sense of happiness stemming from devotion, that is inspiring. Such great souls are rare, but when found, by serving them, one gains a desire and a feeling of that love, whereby all lower happiness is able to be rejected. There is also examples of mother monkey.....if she is jumping from tree to tree, and her baby does not hold on for dear life, baby will be left behind. So, similarly we must find a preceptor (s), one who can give us divine inspiration, and hold tightly for dear life.....to instructions, to the guidance, to the desire, above all, to be a servant rather than an enjoyer of the facilities given by the Lord. There is chapter in Gita on the modes of nature....very good chapter to study. my respects to all, mahalaksmi Dasi ------------------------- Swabhaav or Guna are independent sub-conscious mind (manah) like underground subway, and intellect (buddhi) is a sort of manifested mind in contemporary reality like visible part of entrance and exit of subway. In another example, seed of lemon is swabhaav or guna and it manifests in nature according to content in the seed. So guna or the swabhaav of lemon cannot be changed by applying any techniques on its intellect or manifested component. No one can make a lemon into growing as mango irrespective of how much fertilizer or water is applied. So changing the swabhaav by external influence is highly unlikely, and even if it occurs, it returns to its own when cooled off. But the lemon can itself and independently can transform itself not by learning but by thinking and detachment from influence of the nature. This process in solitude and self determination is called Yoga. Manah or sub-conscious mind is produced by sankalp or obligation or something incorrect, and this is the reason of taking birth. After the manah is born as life with breath then, condition of manah is like bottled water which is not a free water and it gets manufacture and expiry date printed on it. So the bottled water has certain limitation of the sankalp that it cannot leave half way. In the period of bondage, the water has a given property and function thus, this is helplessness of everyones' life and work. Best regards K G (Krishna Gopal) ------------------------- Sai ram, I congratulate all for this wonderful satsang online. it is a wonderful learning forum. Regarding this question on Guna & Intellect. Allow me to first put these in one language Buddhi is referred to as Intellect and Gun (a) is attribute . Now we can see the difference - Buddhi Vs Guna. Intellect Vs Attribute. It is very important to define the words for our understanding. Attributes or Gunas are the qualities which justify the form or existence. Like, to roar is a attribute of Lion, or... faithfulness is Dogs guna, flickering mind is attribute of monkey; ... similarly we need to identify the attributes or Gunas of Human beings which qualify us to become a Human (they are Sathya, Dharma, Shanti, Prema & Ahimsa). Once we know the basic and true attribute of a being then we can understand that we don't have to worry about 'changing' or 'acquiring' gunas. These are latent and potent in each one of us. the dust of life experience has covered and made us forget it. Sometime the illusion is so strong that we accept the cover (dust) to be our true attributes. and later we find the need to change or acquire... the whole exercise thus is, to remind ourselves of our true Gunas and remove the dust of ignorance or others gunas (jealousy, pride, ego, anger etc).. Buddhi or Intellect is the representative of the self in this physical world, which helps us recognising and understanding our true nature (Gunas). It is buddhi which uses the power of discrimination (exclusively bestowed on Humans) to acknowledge and follow the true path. if a tiger cub being brought up with sheep thinks that it is also a sheep... it is ignorance. it does not need to acquire any extra qualities to become a tiger. It is just a matter of acknowledging its true nature. And he will be a Tiger instantly, for He always was a Tiger. So are we divine, so are we human. waiting for the moment to acknowledge our Divine self/ nature / Guna... then there will be no change or acquiring required. Lastly, it is important to understand that all these question arise out of duality - feeling of separation from the ones own true self. When we realise that we are ONE then the life will be very pleasant. the qualities like Satva, Rajas and Tamas are just an expression of our distance from our own self. A Satvik is one who is closest to his own being (Gunas) and Tamsik is the farthest... enjoy the journey... from God to God...and with God. loving sai ram abhimanyu kaul --------------------------- Hari Om Even Intellect gets into spell of Gunas. Refer Gita 18:30 to 32. This entire universe is evolution of Gunas only. Hence to single out intellect alone will not help. Refer Gita 7:14. These three gunas are powers of Maya. You can conquer them only by surrendering to God. (7:14) But your question/problem in fact is not Gunas. ( I guess so). It is " svabhaav " / habits, which we are born with due to our past deeds. Please note only in human birth you can change /improve your svabhav/habits/tendencies/ automaticness of karmas by you- except those which happen involuntarily to make you reap the results of past karmas.. In no other form of life you can change/improve your svabhav/habits- you can do so only in human life. There it is not intellect but it is jeeva himself who plays the greater role. No svabhav can force you to do forbidden acts- be sure on that. It is also true that based on your karmas , sometimes your intellect gets out of your control and forcefully certain actions are made by the body to punish/reward the jeeva (you) as per his past deeds. That is another subject- operation of Law of Karma. The best way to remove a fault of habits is not to accept it at all in oneself. It will die its natural death. A habit acquires strength only when you accept it as your habit. Ignore, donot believe say for example - " I am angry " or " I am sinful " or " I am greedy " or " I am hot headed " . Simply do not believe that. They will leave you. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B " As fire is covered by smoke, as a mirror by dust, and as an embryo by placenta, so is this (knowledge) concealed by desire. (Gita 3:38) " dhoomenaavriyate vahniryathaadarso malena ca yatholbenaavrato garbhastathaa tenedamaavrtam. " (Gita 3:38) From the above shlok of Gita (3-38), it is clear that we have to do nothing but clean the dust, which has collected in our mind. In my view one should not think much, except that I am of God, for God and by God. Once we accept (just understanding is not enough) this then we don't need much clarification. Which-ever 'Guna' and what-ever be the amount, it doesn't matter. All these are worldly thing. These things matter when we are related to worldly people. When it comes to God, it doesn't matter. We don't need any 'Guna' to know Him. Just accept the only truth of this world. Ram Ram Ashok Goenka ------------------------------ The present concern is - 'do we have any freedom in choosing our actions and attitudes i.e our " nature " --- ' is it possible to go against his or her nature? How? Yes. Everybody is having freedom in choosing their actions and attitudes i.e " nature " . It is possible to go against his or her nature. Kadham chaitaamstreengunanativartate ? Arjuna questioned ' and how Lord, does one rise above the three Gunaas or nature ? The reply is 'Sa gunaansamatityitabrhmabhuuyaayakalpate' ,He too who, constantly worships me through Yoga of devotion ,transending these three gunaas, he becomes eligible for attaining the Saught. 'Ititegnanamaaghyaatam - Yadhechasitadhaakuru' After telling all the yogaas Krishna,the international councillor asked to 'do as you like after fully pondering over it, giving a choice in choosing ones actins and attitudes. Mr. Maareecharaakshasa changed his actions and attitude after coming into contact with Rama and transformed himself as 'Maareechamaharshi' and tried to enlighten Ravana on Divinity and Humanity and dhaarmic life. 'Nature is a mutable cloud which is always and never the same' -- R.W. Emerson (1803 - 1882) " Nature's mighty law is change " - Robert Burns (1789 - 1796 ) golianjaneyulu ------------------------------ Dear friends, There is a whole chapter on the three Gunas in the Bhagavad Gita --- chapter 17 with 28 verses. Please go through this chapter carefully. May be you should read this chapter several times to get the deeper meaning---meanwhile read more than one commentary available to you-- -Do not restrict to only one of the commentaries, such as that of Adi Sankara...read with open mind----the required knowledge and understanding will ensue by Divine Grace.... Regards, In Sai Smaran, N K Srinivasan ------------------------------- Please review Gita Talk Guidelines before posting a question or responses at: /message/1535 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 8, 2008 Report Share Posted September 8, 2008 Namaste! I would like to know how one can change one's gunas (qualities, mode of nature). (Do the words 'change one's gunas' (even make sense?) Do we have any freedom in choosing our actions and attitudes? If we are locked into our conduct, how can a person with high tamas (Inertia or ignorance)ever become sattvik (goodness, purity)? However, we are also told that the intellect reigns over all other Sankhya elements. Is it then possible for the intellect to assert control over a guna-induced behavior and make a person do the right (i.e sattvik or dharmic) thing? In essence, the intellect has to make a person do that which may be against his or her " nature " . Is this possible? How can one develop this ability? I guess I am not clear about the relationship between the gunas and the intellect. Can someone explain this? Thanks! Srinivas Vuppuluri --------------------------- Guna is what U instinctively do. Intellect tells U what is wrong & right. Above this is PURUSHOTTAM. The Paramatama. In Gitaji Ch.7 Krishna ji says " Mamev ye prapadyante mayam etam taranti te. " Who only find refuge in Me, will surpass all this maya where gunas exist. Aint that easy. Thanx Raja Gurdasani -------------------------- Loving Divine, Pranam. If you contemplate on Valmiki and Angulimaal's story, you will get your answer. humble regards, always at Thy Holy Feet Manjula Patel ---------------------------- Namaste I wish to express my views ! Krishna says Yatkaroshi ......Madarpanam ! Tavasmi cha yachate ! Where comes our intellect ,our gunas, our acts ? Surrender everything to Gurunathal ! A playful ritual of telling this everyday, definitely controls emotions and tempers. Remember Fire is hot even if you touch it unknowingly ! Even i dont know when i will get the anubhuthi but i belive i am right. Ram Ram K Subramanyam ------------------------------ I would like to know how one can change one's gunas (qualities, mode of nature). (Do the words 'change one's gunas' (even make sense?) Guna is ability of inter-action or give/take relationship or behavior. This (guna) is not the swabhaav which is independent state of self, and manifested in your effortless and defenseless and behaviour in non-reactive state. Bhagwat Gita has praised SWABHAAV and not so much given value to GUNA. He says follow and know your swabhaav and whatever guna comes from it, accept it. You cannot change Guna as a lemon cannot pretend to be a mango. Be only a lemon and spread your natural fragrance without expecting any one's priase or abuse which can bias you. As long as Mango and lemon are not in a competition, both are in Swabhaav but by begining of interaction or comparison, they act in influence of Guna. Thus, the Guna (also called Bhaav) should not deteriorate your Swabhaav. Practical meaning of this theory is, that do business with with only those with whom you are most comfortable and relaxed and need no defenses. This will arise self confidence and discover your Swabhaav. Technically, you should choose activity where you do not fall prey to state of reaction or defenses. This is called NirGun To start with, we are told that everyone is born with a certain proportion of each guna. Next, we learn that the combination of gunas we possess determines our actions and attitudes i.e. our " nature " . Guna are not mixed for a zyani. These are different reaction patterns. For example, you react to enemy or an authority in a different way and different way to a business partner, and different to your father and uncles, and very different to your grand daughter or a pet. So your defence mechanism is called three Guna and so called TRI SHOOL (three weapon) of Shiva. Mixed Guna is called Varna Sankar (hybrid). This is a real danger. If you act to a govenment authority with love and honesty as such as treating them as a child, you are mistaken. If you treat business partner without keeping the business in mind, you are again mistaken. So the crux lies in understanding the swabhaav and act in similar way in Guna. Much of that would be what we call " instinct " and defines us. In that case, do we have any freedom in choosing our actions and attitudes? Not really. By awareness of yourself, you can transform your swabhaav but cannot transform swabhaav of others. In that case, you have to change your work, work place and environment. It will automatically get changed, and you will get positive vibes from a new place. If we are locked into our conduct, how can a person with high tamas (Inertia or ignorance)ever become sattvik (goodness, purity)? Intertia is corect word for inabiity to change its environment and work. For example, if one is an engineer devoted to work without having hostility with others, he will get new job and a better company and leave the dirt right there. Only by dis associating from useless things, he gets new and better quality of life. However, we are also told that the intellect reigns over all other Sankhya elements. Is it then possible for the intellect to assert control over a guna-induced behavior and make a person do the right (i.e sattvik or dharmic) thing? Guna is function of intellect. Swabhav is function of Manah. Guna is conscious or volntary mind in time bound reaction and intense, but swabhaav is unchanging subconscious or involuntary mind. In essence, the intellect has to make a person do that which may be against his or her " nature " . Is this possible? How can one develop this ability? This is crux of Yoga. Sub conscious or nature or swabhaav or involuntary self as function of Manah are subtle and will change but by co-operation of Guna or inteelect or physical and logical experiences. In Ram Charit Maanas, it says Ram is Manah and Sita is Buddhi (intellect). Sita is more worldly and has more responsibility and duty, but Rawan abducted Sita. This means, our intellect if fragile and subject to external influence, and that causes the Manah (Sri Ram) to look for Sita. So a man or women should do everything by head and heart together, and this is only practice. This awareness of connection between Sita (intellect) and Manah (Ram) is called Hanuman. Krishna Gopal ------------------------------- Mr.Srinivas you are clear. Gunas are produced based on Stars, Lagna & Raasi. These are again based on DNA & Geens in the body. Animals have fixed gunaas. Lion behaviour is differant from Cow. But Man has all the Gunnas of all the animals since he came as human after servaral birth of beeing born as tiger, snake etc It has happened bad person becoming good. This happens by introgating in mind and getting answers from Guru/Puranas/scripts or becoming friendly with a saintly person. B.Sathyanarayan -------------------------- Hari Om The question was " How one can change one's gunas? " Answer is - turn towards the God, surrender to Him. This human life has been given only for God Realisation. The moment you turn towards God, " sadgunas and sadaachaar " will automatically start manifesting in you. You develop " durgunas " ( bad attributes, rajasic/tamasic svabhav) only when your face is towards the world. Your " character " thus gets developed/ deteriorated based on this. It is our direct experience that more and more we renounce the desire for worldly things , more and more sadgunas come into us - peace, equanimity, fearlessness, truthfulness, austerities, non violence etc etc. More and more we desire worldly things , more and more " durgunas " , turmoil, inequality, bias, sorrows, tensions, anger, greed , pride etc come into us. Hence simple answer is that rather than analysing gunas, corelating it with intellect etc, simply turn towards the God. If due to past deeds, rajasic and tamasic gunas, haunt you - then just ignore them , just don't accept them as part of your " svabhav " ( habit- the literal meaning of svabhaav is " own inner expression " , own is self , jeeva himself ), just don't accept it as your habit at all - " udaasinvadaasinah " ... " yoava tishthati nengate " ( Gita 14:23) Remaining indifferent to Gunas one should remain positioned unruffled by them. If some body says , no you can't whisk away Gunas, you are bound by them, you can't afford not to take notice of them - simply don't believe him. Be sure that nothing else can help you in overcoming these gunas except BY NOT ACCEPTING THEM IN YOU. This is Gita teaching, not an individual bound by gunas teaching.. Lord Krishna says so. Reason is that these three gunas - sattwik, rajasic and tamasic - they haunt you even after You have " realised the Truth/ have become Gunateet( beyond Gunas) " as is evidenced by Gita 14:22. You have to ignore them- there is no choice. You can overcome them only by not accepting them in you- you are capable to do that- nothing else you can do with respect to Gunas. Believe in Gita , Saints and Sages, and of course on your " CONSCIENCE " - which appears to many as Intellect, but which is much much higher and different element than Intellect. Believe on your conscience not on your intellect. With the above your question stands fully answered. Some of your questions were answered in previous posting also by me and by many other fellow sadhaks. Let us know in case you still need clarifications. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ---------------------------- Many of the fellow travellers have to get indight of terms like Guna/ bhaav (interactive property), swabhaav (independent nature) and varna (color, personality trait). These are highly specialized words in the Bhagwat Gita and needed an explanation. In simple term, guna is interactivity or a manner in which one individual responds or reacts to or with another individual or condition. High school Chemistry is really very useful for the distinction between guna and swabhaav. Na is sodium which is highly reactive, inflamable and cannot be found uncared in nature or its independent state. Cl or chlorine is another reactive gas and it is hazardous to human, because it is violent in a similar way as sodium. And Na and Cl when combined together as common salt which is very common and not harmful. This means, swabhaav of each of Na and Cl are highly violent in independent form, but Na Cl (common salt), has no swabhaav as it is a compound; and 'swa' (self or independent nature of each ) does not exist. The guna/ bhaav of Na Cl is not harmful although each of the element Na and Cl have dangerous swabhaav. But look here! H Cl is also a compound made of H hydrogen and Cl chlorine, but this is an acid and it is highly corrosive in the guna or bhaav. Cl or chlorine is calm (in NaCl) with Na but does not remain that calm (HCl) with H. This means, individual character in independent state, and in organization A and organization B and organization C can be different. Anguli maal was a dacoit but when combined with Buddha, he was turned into a saint. Crimimal and politician nexus in India is similarly highly deadly. Guna is human chemistry. Now take example of Au or gold. This is a metal which is found free and independent in nature. Like a sanyaasi, it does not changes its swabhaav and remains pure whereever it remains and nonreactive in all condition. But it is highly sensitive and so, used as conductor of signal in telecommunication. So, this metal has very litte guna or is nirgun like Sri Ram and remains always free and independent in all state and never forms compound. Here the guna (reactivity) does not deteriorate swabhaav (self nature). Bhagwat Gita says about Nirgun state of the brahman and RamCharit Maanas says similarly about Ramman kaamari shaiyam bhavbhay harnam kaal mattebh singham, yogindram zyan gamyam, guna nidhi vigitam, nirgunam nirvikaram. In the future, I will even write the three rules of reactivity or three guna (bhaav or vikaar) or tri shool ( sat, raj and tam) held in hand of Shiva. best regards K G (Krishna Gopal) ============================================================ PREVIOUS POSTING Hari Om I fully agree with Ashokji Goenka. These Gunas remain as a law in every minutest form of nature. Be it Karta, Karma, Intellect, Ego, Mind, Dhaarana (adoption power)-etc. Even " Gunateet " Mahatmas( beyond Gunas) have these Gunas in them. That is why when Arjuna asked Lord about the conduct of such " Gunateet " ( people who are beyond Gunas) people in 14:21 , Lord stated in 14:22/23 that they see Gunas getting consumed by Gunas and - " yoav tisthati nengate " (14:23). They remain/get positioned in the state of indifference to the Gunas. " Udaasin " - non caring, indifferent, unruffled, unimpacted - they remain with reference to the Gunas. Ignorance by way of non acceptance of bad habits in yourself therefore is the best way to conquer your " svabhaav " . Of course that becomes very easy when you accept firmly your " mineness " with God. It is a law that whatever rises , sets. When anger, greed, bouts of violence etc arise in you - you should not carried away, you should remain unruffled, not accept them as a part of your " self " - they will die natural death. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ---------------------------- There are four things that come between 'Jeeva' and 'Atma'. These are man (mind), buddhi (intellect0, Chitta (I do not know the right English word for this. Perhaps we can call it wisdom) and 'Ahankar'. These four constitute 'Jeeva'. Only when we are able to cross (anihilate) all these, we will realise God. So long as we are Jeeva, we need to make an effort to realise God. It may be widely believed that we can pursue God only when we are 'Sattwik'. This may not be wholly true, because as per God himself, every one has an equal right to achieve Him. Besides, God is beyond any Gunas. Then where do we start? According to me starting point of this journey is the desire to realise God. This is very clear from your question that you want to start the journey. The next step is to attack the first impediment, which is the mind. Mind is perhaps the greatest creation of nature. It has a tendency to become what ever company it keeps. Currently we keep the company of the world. So it becomes worldly. So let us first change this company. Let us start indulging in literature, which helps us to move in that direction. Also, let us start keeping company of such people, who are moving in this line. This, however, can be dangerous because in today's world, every one who is a kathakar (or a preacher) proclaims himself as 'Siddha'. The real test in such a situation would be to assess if this person has any lust for money. If yes, he can't help us as God can't be purchased with money. In pursuit of God, please ignore what Gunas (prakrity, svabhaav) we are born with. No amount of effort, including wishing them away (believing that these are not in us) will help. But our devotion will automatically take care of that. We should just proceed. I would like to draw your attention to the fact that I have not used the word " you " , while addressing your question. This is because we are all in the same boat. Hence this answer is for all of us including myself to remember again and again. A.H.Dalmia ------------------------- Dandavat pranams.... In regard to the question by Srinivas, a major consideration in changing one's gunas is the mercy of the Lord, then our own individual desire. There is a story in the Vedas of Lord Indra, questioning how it is that illusion can so completely cover the living entity. He was then given a chance to experience, in a moments time (as when the demigods of the higher realm come here, the time is different, an entire live span here is merely a few moments to them) what was life in a hog's body. Living in the body of a hog, enjoying the delicacy of eating stool, having sexual relations with any other pig, whether sister, mother or daughter.....he became very attached to his enjoyments. When his preceptor (I am not recalling the name of who gave him this lesson) came before him, at the end of his life, and said, " You are actually the king of heaven, Indradeva....please leave this situation and come back to heaven " .....Indra in the form of a pig refused. He said, " I am very happy here....I am enjoying eating stool, and being the king of this pen. " Then, one by one, his pig mother, sisters, brothers, all pigs were taken to be slaughtered... when he saw it was his turn, finally he agreed, " Maybe I should return to heaven. " The point is that maya is very very powerful....the illusory energy causes us to feel comfortable so readily.....even when the activities or life style that we may have is abominable. By association of sadhus, coupled with our own desire, we can rise above the gunas. When we meet an individual who is steeped in love, whose heart is overflowing with a sense of happiness stemming from devotion, that is inspiring. Such great souls are rare, but when found, by serving them, one gains a desire and a feeling of that love, whereby all lower happiness is able to be rejected. There is also examples of mother monkey.....if she is jumping from tree to tree, and her baby does not hold on for dear life, baby will be left behind. So, similarly we must find a preceptor (s), one who can give us divine inspiration, and hold tightly for dear life.....to instructions, to the guidance, to the desire, above all, to be a servant rather than an enjoyer of the facilities given by the Lord. There is chapter in Gita on the modes of nature....very good chapter to study. my respects to all, mahalaksmi Dasi ------------------------- Swabhaav or Guna are independent sub-conscious mind (manah) like underground subway, and intellect (buddhi) is a sort of manifested mind in contemporary reality like visible part of entrance and exit of subway. In another example, seed of lemon is swabhaav or guna and it manifests in nature according to content in the seed. So guna or the swabhaav of lemon cannot be changed by applying any techniques on its intellect or manifested component. No one can make a lemon into growing as mango irrespective of how much fertilizer or water is applied. So changing the swabhaav by external influence is highly unlikely, and even if it occurs, it returns to its own when cooled off. But the lemon can itself and independently can transform itself not by learning but by thinking and detachment from influence of the nature. This process in solitude and self determination is called Yoga. Manah or sub-conscious mind is produced by sankalp or obligation or something incorrect, and this is the reason of taking birth. After the manah is born as life with breath then, condition of manah is like bottled water which is not a free water and it gets manufacture and expiry date printed on it. So the bottled water has certain limitation of the sankalp that it cannot leave half way. In the period of bondage, the water has a given property and function thus, this is helplessness of everyones' life and work. Best regards K G (Krishna Gopal) ------------------------- Sai ram, I congratulate all for this wonderful satsang online. it is a wonderful learning forum. Regarding this question on Guna & Intellect. Allow me to first put these in one language Buddhi is referred to as Intellect and Gun (a) is attribute . Now we can see the difference - Buddhi Vs Guna. Intellect Vs Attribute. It is very important to define the words for our understanding. Attributes or Gunas are the qualities which justify the form or existence. Like, to roar is a attribute of Lion, or... faithfulness is Dogs guna, flickering mind is attribute of monkey; ... similarly we need to identify the attributes or Gunas of Human beings which qualify us to become a Human (they are Sathya, Dharma, Shanti, Prema & Ahimsa). Once we know the basic and true attribute of a being then we can understand that we don't have to worry about 'changing' or 'acquiring' gunas. These are latent and potent in each one of us. the dust of life experience has covered and made us forget it. Sometime the illusion is so strong that we accept the cover (dust) to be our true attributes. and later we find the need to change or acquire... the whole exercise thus is, to remind ourselves of our true Gunas and remove the dust of ignorance or others gunas (jealousy, pride, ego, anger etc).. Buddhi or Intellect is the representative of the self in this physical world, which helps us recognising and understanding our true nature (Gunas). It is buddhi which uses the power of discrimination (exclusively bestowed on Humans) to acknowledge and follow the true path. if a tiger cub being brought up with sheep thinks that it is also a sheep... it is ignorance. it does not need to acquire any extra qualities to become a tiger. It is just a matter of acknowledging its true nature. And he will be a Tiger instantly, for He always was a Tiger. So are we divine, so are we human. waiting for the moment to acknowledge our Divine self/ nature / Guna... then there will be no change or acquiring required. Lastly, it is important to understand that all these question arise out of duality - feeling of separation from the ones own true self. When we realise that we are ONE then the life will be very pleasant. the qualities like Satva, Rajas and Tamas are just an expression of our distance from our own self. A Satvik is one who is closest to his own being (Gunas) and Tamsik is the farthest... enjoy the journey... from God to God...and with God. loving sai ram abhimanyu kaul --------------------------- Hari Om Even Intellect gets into spell of Gunas. Refer Gita 18:30 to 32. This entire universe is evolution of Gunas only. Hence to single out intellect alone will not help. Refer Gita 7:14. These three gunas are powers of Maya. You can conquer them only by surrendering to God. (7:14) But your question/problem in fact is not Gunas. ( I guess so). It is " svabhaav " / habits, which we are born with due to our past deeds. Please note only in human birth you can change /improve your svabhav/habits/tendencies/ automaticness of karmas by you- except those which happen involuntarily to make you reap the results of past karmas.. In no other form of life you can change/improve your svabhav/habits- you can do so only in human life. There it is not intellect but it is jeeva himself who plays the greater role. No svabhav can force you to do forbidden acts- be sure on that. It is also true that based on your karmas , sometimes your intellect gets out of your control and forcefully certain actions are made by the body to punish/reward the jeeva (you) as per his past deeds. That is another subject- operation of Law of Karma. The best way to remove a fault of habits is not to accept it at all in oneself. It will die its natural death. A habit acquires strength only when you accept it as your habit. Ignore, donot believe say for example - " I am angry " or " I am sinful " or " I am greedy " or " I am hot headed " . Simply do not believe that. They will leave you. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B " As fire is covered by smoke, as a mirror by dust, and as an embryo by placenta, so is this (knowledge) concealed by desire. (Gita 3:38) " dhoomenaavriyate vahniryathaadarso malena ca yatholbenaavrato garbhastathaa tenedamaavrtam. " (Gita 3:38) From the above shlok of Gita (3-38), it is clear that we have to do nothing but clean the dust, which has collected in our mind. In my view one should not think much, except that I am of God, for God and by God. Once we accept (just understanding is not enough) this then we don't need much clarification. Which-ever 'Guna' and what-ever be the amount, it doesn't matter. All these are worldly thing. These things matter when we are related to worldly people. When it comes to God, it doesn't matter. We don't need any 'Guna' to know Him. Just accept the only truth of this world. Ram Ram Ashok Goenka ------------------------------ The present concern is - 'do we have any freedom in choosing our actions and attitudes i.e our " nature " --- ' is it possible to go against his or her nature? How? Yes. Everybody is having freedom in choosing their actions and attitudes i.e " nature " . It is possible to go against his or her nature. Kadham chaitaamstreengunanativartate ? Arjuna questioned ' and how Lord, does one rise above the three Gunaas or nature ? The reply is 'Sa gunaansamatityitabrhmabhuuyaayakalpate' ,He too who, constantly worships me through Yoga of devotion ,transending these three gunaas, he becomes eligible for attaining the Saught. 'Ititegnanamaaghyaatam - Yadhechasitadhaakuru' After telling all the yogaas Krishna,the international councillor asked to 'do as you like after fully pondering over it, giving a choice in choosing ones actins and attitudes. Mr. Maareecharaakshasa changed his actions and attitude after coming into contact with Rama and transformed himself as 'Maareechamaharshi' and tried to enlighten Ravana on Divinity and Humanity and dhaarmic life. 'Nature is a mutable cloud which is always and never the same' -- R.W. Emerson (1803 - 1882) " Nature's mighty law is change " - Robert Burns (1789 - 1796 ) golianjaneyulu ------------------------------ Dear friends, There is a whole chapter on the three Gunas in the Bhagavad Gita --- chapter 17 with 28 verses. Please go through this chapter carefully. May be you should read this chapter several times to get the deeper meaning---meanwhile read more than one commentary available to you-- -Do not restrict to only one of the commentaries, such as that of Adi Sankara...read with open mind----the required knowledge and understanding will ensue by Divine Grace.... Regards, In Sai Smaran, N K Srinivasan ------------------------------- Please review Gita Talk Guidelines before posting a question or responses at: /message/1535 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 10, 2008 Report Share Posted September 10, 2008 Shree Hari Ram Ram At this time we are closing this topic. There are number of pending questions in the queue that need to be addressed. Thank you all for participating and contributing. A few key points covered by sadhaks regarding Gunas: Gita Chapter 17, Gita 14:5-18, Gita 3:37-43, Gita 7:13-17 covers Gunas. The moment we turn towards God, " sadgunas and sadaachaar " will automatically manifest. The three gunas are powers of Maya, one can conquer them only by surrendering to God (7:14). The best way to remove a fault of habits is not to accept them at all in oneself. Conduct of " Gunateet " (beyond Gunas) person Gita 14:21 is indifference to the Gunas (Gita 14:23) , " Udaasin " - unruffled, unimpacted. Who only finds refuge in God, will surpass all this maya where gunas exist. Buddhi (Intellect) vs Guna (Attribute). Guna and karma are related. On realizing we are one, only divinity will shine, not gunas. A major consideration in changing one's gunas is the mercy of the Lord, then our own individual desire. Surrender everything to Gurunathal ! Gunas cannot change, Swabhaav can. Attitude is Key. Gita gives importance to Swabhaav. 'Sat sangha' 'devotional activities to God' 'Yoga' 'Meditation' etc. all will help change the human being into another direction. Contemplate on Valmiki and Angulimaal's story and receive your answer. He who is constantly devoted and worships God, can transcend the gunas Through acceptance of eternal relationship with God (I am God's), one no longer is impacted by things of the world such as Gunas born in Nature. Please excuse us if some key points were overlooked. Gita Talk Moderator, Ram Ram -------------------------------- Dear Mr Srinivas Most of Gita has some relevance to the questions and satisfactory answer can be found only by reading Gita again and again. Chapter 14 ,verse 8 explains Tamasi Guna,verse 10 says Tamasi Guna increase by supressing Rajasi and Sattvik Guna,verse 13 says what happens on increase of Tamasi Guna and the result of Tamasi Guna is Agyan or false/distorted knowledge(not ignorance).The true knowledge or even intellect is enveloped /surrounded by false knowledge. It is difficult for Person with high Tamasik Guna to become sattvik.He has to work that much harder.It is difficult for them to listen to any good advice ,read good scripture like Gita or to devote time for spiritual practice consistently.They do not have control over their mind or actions. Such persons require more compassion & love , involvement ,patience and effort from persons with Rajasik Guna to put them on the spiritual path.Once the Tamasik Guna is supressed and seed for God realisation is shown they progress very very fast.As per verse 69 of 18th chapter,this work of explaing Gita is most loved by Bhagwan Krishna. Please refer to the following verses in Gita which are relevant to the questions and issues:- Chapter 3 Verses 37 to 43 Chapter 7 Verses 13 to 17 Chapter 14 Verses 5 to 18 Also entire chapter 13 should be read. regards Ashok Jain ------------------------------- brahmany adhaya karmani sangam tyaktva karoti yah lipyate na sa papena padma-patram ivambhasa " One who performs his duty without attachment, surrendering the results unto the Supreme Lord, is unaffected by sinful action, as the lotus leaf is untouched by water. " seshadri seshu --------------------------- Chanting Hare Krishna can change your Guan, there is verse in Bhagavad-gita where Krishna says- Bg 10.10 tesam satata-yuktanam bhajatam priti-purvakam dadami buddhi-yogam tam yena mam upayanti te To those who are constantly devoted and worship Me with love, I give the understanding by which they can come to Me. Thing to note here is word Bhajatam, applies to Krishna here Naran Hirani -------------------------------- In kal yug only Ram bhajan , Hari Bhajan is fruitfull for what U aspire. KALYUG KEWAL HARI GUN GAHA, GAWAT NAR PAWAHI BHAV THAHA. When U have simplest way, why get complicated by heavy words of spirituality & there dificult processes. SHRIRAM JAI RAM JAI JAI RAM. RAJA Gurdasani -- Namaste! I would like to know how one can change one's gunas (qualities, mode of nature). (Do the words 'change one's gunas' (even make sense?) Do we have any freedom in choosing our actions and attitudes? If we are locked into our conduct, how can a person with high tamas (Inertia or ignorance)ever become sattvik (goodness, purity)? However, we are also told that the intellect reigns over all other Sankhya elements. Is it then possible for the intellect to assert control over a guna-induced behavior and make a person do the right (i.e sattvik or dharmic) thing? In essence, the intellect has to make a person do that which may be against his or her " nature " . Is this possible? How can one develop this ability? I guess I am not clear about the relationship between the gunas and the intellect. Can someone explain this? Thanks! Srinivas Vuppuluri --------------------------- Guna is what U instinctively do. Intellect tells U what is wrong & right. Above this is PURUSHOTTAM. The Paramatama. In Gitaji Ch.7 Krishna ji says " Mamev ye prapadyante mayam etam taranti te. " Who only find refuge in Me, will surpass all this maya where gunas exist. Aint that easy. Thanx Raja Gurdasani -------------------------- Loving Divine, Pranam. If you contemplate on Valmiki and Angulimaal's story, you will get your answer. humble regards, always at Thy Holy Feet Manjula Patel ---------------------------- Namaste I wish to express my views ! Krishna says Yatkaroshi ......Madarpanam ! Tavasmi cha yachate ! Where comes our intellect ,our gunas, our acts ? Surrender everything to Gurunathal ! A playful ritual of telling this everyday, definitely controls emotions and tempers. Remember Fire is hot even if you touch it unknowingly ! Even i dont know when i will get the anubhuthi but i belive i am right. Ram Ram K Subramanyam ------------------------------ I would like to know how one can change one's gunas (qualities, mode of nature). (Do the words 'change one's gunas' (even make sense?) Guna is ability of inter-action or give/take relationship or behavior. This (guna) is not the swabhaav which is independent state of self, and manifested in your effortless and defenseless and behaviour in non-reactive state. Bhagwat Gita has praised SWABHAAV and not so much given value to GUNA. He says follow and know your swabhaav and whatever guna comes from it, accept it. You cannot change Guna as a lemon cannot pretend to be a mango. Be only a lemon and spread your natural fragrance without expecting any one's priase or abuse which can bias you. As long as Mango and lemon are not in a competition, both are in Swabhaav but by begining of interaction or comparison, they act in influence of Guna. Thus, the Guna (also called Bhaav) should not deteriorate your Swabhaav. Practical meaning of this theory is, that do business with with only those with whom you are most comfortable and relaxed and need no defenses. This will arise self confidence and discover your Swabhaav. Technically, you should choose activity where you do not fall prey to state of reaction or defenses. This is called NirGun To start with, we are told that everyone is born with a certain proportion of each guna. Next, we learn that the combination of gunas we possess determines our actions and attitudes i.e. our " nature " . Guna are not mixed for a zyani. These are different reaction patterns. For example, you react to enemy or an authority in a different way and different way to a business partner, and different to your father and uncles, and very different to your grand daughter or a pet. So your defence mechanism is called three Guna and so called TRI SHOOL (three weapon) of Shiva. Mixed Guna is called Varna Sankar (hybrid). This is a real danger. If you act to a govenment authority with love and honesty as such as treating them as a child, you are mistaken. If you treat business partner without keeping the business in mind, you are again mistaken. So the crux lies in understanding the swabhaav and act in similar way in Guna. Much of that would be what we call " instinct " and defines us. In that case, do we have any freedom in choosing our actions and attitudes? Not really. By awareness of yourself, you can transform your swabhaav but cannot transform swabhaav of others. In that case, you have to change your work, work place and environment. It will automatically get changed, and you will get positive vibes from a new place. If we are locked into our conduct, how can a person with high tamas (Inertia or ignorance)ever become sattvik (goodness, purity)? Intertia is corect word for inabiity to change its environment and work. For example, if one is an engineer devoted to work without having hostility with others, he will get new job and a better company and leave the dirt right there. Only by dis associating from useless things, he gets new and better quality of life. However, we are also told that the intellect reigns over all other Sankhya elements. Is it then possible for the intellect to assert control over a guna-induced behavior and make a person do the right (i.e sattvik or dharmic) thing? Guna is function of intellect. Swabhav is function of Manah. Guna is conscious or volntary mind in time bound reaction and intense, but swabhaav is unchanging subconscious or involuntary mind. In essence, the intellect has to make a person do that which may be against his or her " nature " . Is this possible? How can one develop this ability? This is crux of Yoga. Sub conscious or nature or swabhaav or involuntary self as function of Manah are subtle and will change but by co-operation of Guna or inteelect or physical and logical experiences. In Ram Charit Maanas, it says Ram is Manah and Sita is Buddhi (intellect). Sita is more worldly and has more responsibility and duty, but Rawan abducted Sita. This means, our intellect if fragile and subject to external influence, and that causes the Manah (Sri Ram) to look for Sita. So a man or women should do everything by head and heart together, and this is only practice. This awareness of connection between Sita (intellect) and Manah (Ram) is called Hanuman. Krishna Gopal ------------------------------- Mr.Srinivas you are clear. Gunas are produced based on Stars, Lagna & Raasi. These are again based on DNA & Geens in the body. Animals have fixed gunaas. Lion behaviour is differant from Cow. But Man has all the Gunnas of all the animals since he came as human after servaral birth of beeing born as tiger, snake etc It has happened bad person becoming good. This happens by introgating in mind and getting answers from Guru/Puranas/scripts or becoming friendly with a saintly person. B.Sathyanarayan -------------------------- Hari Om The question was " How one can change one's gunas? " Answer is - turn towards the God, surrender to Him. This human life has been given only for God Realisation. The moment you turn towards God, " sadgunas and sadaachaar " will automatically start manifesting in you. You develop " durgunas " ( bad attributes, rajasic/tamasic svabhav) only when your face is towards the world. Your " character " thus gets developed/ deteriorated based on this. It is our direct experience that more and more we renounce the desire for worldly things , more and more sadgunas come into us - peace, equanimity, fearlessness, truthfulness, austerities, non violence etc etc. More and more we desire worldly things , more and more " durgunas " , turmoil, inequality, bias, sorrows, tensions, anger, greed , pride etc come into us. Hence simple answer is that rather than analysing gunas, corelating it with intellect etc, simply turn towards the God. If due to past deeds, rajasic and tamasic gunas, haunt you - then just ignore them , just don't accept them as part of your " svabhav " ( habit- the literal meaning of svabhaav is " own inner expression " , own is self , jeeva himself ), just don't accept it as your habit at all - " udaasinvadaasinah " ... " yoava tishthati nengate " ( Gita 14:23) Remaining indifferent to Gunas one should remain positioned unruffled by them. If some body says , no you can't whisk away Gunas, you are bound by them, you can't afford not to take notice of them - simply don't believe him. Be sure that nothing else can help you in overcoming these gunas except BY NOT ACCEPTING THEM IN YOU. This is Gita teaching, not an individual bound by gunas teaching.. Lord Krishna says so. Reason is that these three gunas - sattwik, rajasic and tamasic - they haunt you even after You have " realised the Truth/ have become Gunateet( beyond Gunas) " as is evidenced by Gita 14:22. You have to ignore them- there is no choice. You can overcome them only by not accepting them in you- you are capable to do that- nothing else you can do with respect to Gunas. Believe in Gita , Saints and Sages, and of course on your " CONSCIENCE " - which appears to many as Intellect, but which is much much higher and different element than Intellect. Believe on your conscience not on your intellect. With the above your question stands fully answered. Some of your questions were answered in previous posting also by me and by many other fellow sadhaks. Let us know in case you still need clarifications. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ---------------------------- It is said gunishu na ca lingam na ca vayah. if one is possisive of good qualities he is respected irrespective gender, age and place. But god is so great every body is born with gunas besides rupa ,nama later on. gunas all in all do not come at a time. there is a proceedure and time factor. Also the quality pick up depends upon the environment either of family or society or the place. The gunas are divided into three groups soft ,authoritative and arrogant.. but owing to education at home ,at school and elsewhere the self evolution takes place. All scriptures right from Rigveda and down the literature em[phasise on the building up character and conduct. Guna and karma are related as Bhagavan Krishna says and if there is a correlation and levels of attractive performance he becomes a yogi lauded by all. If the character and conduct owing to ego and false hopes is wavery, that leads to problems. Therefore scripture like Bhagavadgita is out to give a message you can change if you enjoy the potency in a person to understand to change and rise to the need. Those wih remain stubborn for wrongs , they suffer. subham prabhakar ---------------------------- Many of the fellow travellers have to get indight of terms like Guna/ bhaav (interactive property), swabhaav (independent nature) and varna (color, personality trait). These are highly specialized words in the Bhagwat Gita and needed an explanation. In simple term, guna is interactivity or a manner in which one individual responds or reacts to or with another individual or condition. High school Chemistry is really very useful for the distinction between guna and swabhaav. Na is sodium which is highly reactive, inflamable and cannot be found uncared in nature or its independent state. Cl or chlorine is another reactive gas and it is hazardous to human, because it is violent in a similar way as sodium. And Na and Cl when combined together as common salt which is very common and not harmful. This means, swabhaav of each of Na and Cl are highly violent in independent form, but Na Cl (common salt), has no swabhaav as it is a compound; and 'swa' (self or independent nature of each ) does not exist. The guna/ bhaav of Na Cl is not harmful although each of the element Na and Cl have dangerous swabhaav. But look here! H Cl is also a compound made of H hydrogen and Cl chlorine, but this is an acid and it is highly corrosive in the guna or bhaav. Cl or chlorine is calm (in NaCl) with Na but does not remain that calm (HCl) with H. This means, individual character in independent state, and in organization A and organization B and organization C can be different. Anguli maal was a dacoit but when combined with Buddha, he was turned into a saint. Crimimal and politician nexus in India is similarly highly deadly. Guna is human chemistry. Now take example of Au or gold. This is a metal which is found free and independent in nature. Like a sanyaasi, it does not changes its swabhaav and remains pure whereever it remains and nonreactive in all condition. But it is highly sensitive and so, used as conductor of signal in telecommunication. So, this metal has very litte guna or is nirgun like Sri Ram and remains always free and independent in all state and never forms compound. Here the guna (reactivity) does not deteriorate swabhaav (self nature). Bhagwat Gita says about Nirgun state of the brahman and RamCharit Maanas says similarly about Ramman kaamari shaiyam bhavbhay harnam kaal mattebh singham, yogindram zyan gamyam, guna nidhi vigitam, nirgunam nirvikaram. In the future, I will even write the three rules of reactivity or three guna (bhaav or vikaar) or tri shool ( sat, raj and tam) held in hand of Shiva. best regards K G (Krishna Gopal) ============================================================ PREVIOUS POSTING Hari Om I fully agree with Ashokji Goenka. These Gunas remain as a law in every minutest form of nature. Be it Karta, Karma, Intellect, Ego, Mind, Dhaarana (adoption power)-etc. Even " Gunateet " Mahatmas( beyond Gunas) have these Gunas in them. That is why when Arjuna asked Lord about the conduct of such " Gunateet " ( people who are beyond Gunas) people in 14:21 , Lord stated in 14:22/23 that they see Gunas getting consumed by Gunas and - " yoav tisthati nengate " (14:23). They remain/get positioned in the state of indifference to the Gunas. " Udaasin " - non caring, indifferent, unruffled, unimpacted - they remain with reference to the Gunas. Ignorance by way of non acceptance of bad habits in yourself therefore is the best way to conquer your " svabhaav " . Of course that becomes very easy when you accept firmly your " mineness " with God. It is a law that whatever rises , sets. When anger, greed, bouts of violence etc arise in you - you should not carried away, you should remain unruffled, not accept them as a part of your " self " - they will die natural death. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ---------------------------- There are four things that come between 'Jeeva' and 'Atma'. These are man (mind), buddhi (intellect0, Chitta (I do not know the right English word for this. Perhaps we can call it wisdom) and 'Ahankar'. These four constitute 'Jeeva'. Only when we are able to cross (anihilate) all these, we will realise God. So long as we are Jeeva, we need to make an effort to realise God. It may be widely believed that we can pursue God only when we are 'Sattwik'. This may not be wholly true, because as per God himself, every one has an equal right to achieve Him. Besides, God is beyond any Gunas. Then where do we start? According to me starting point of this journey is the desire to realise God. This is very clear from your question that you want to start the journey. The next step is to attack the first impediment, which is the mind. Mind is perhaps the greatest creation of nature. It has a tendency to become what ever company it keeps. Currently we keep the company of the world. So it becomes worldly. So let us first change this company. Let us start indulging in literature, which helps us to move in that direction. Also, let us start keeping company of such people, who are moving in this line. This, however, can be dangerous because in today's world, every one who is a kathakar (or a preacher) proclaims himself as 'Siddha'. The real test in such a situation would be to assess if this person has any lust for money. If yes, he can't help us as God can't be purchased with money. In pursuit of God, please ignore what Gunas (prakrity, svabhaav) we are born with. No amount of effort, including wishing them away (believing that these are not in us) will help. But our devotion will automatically take care of that. We should just proceed. I would like to draw your attention to the fact that I have not used the word " you " , while addressing your question. This is because we are all in the same boat. Hence this answer is for all of us including myself to remember again and again. A.H.Dalmia ------------------------- Dandavat pranams.... In regard to the question by Srinivas, a major consideration in changing one's gunas is the mercy of the Lord, then our own individual desire. There is a story in the Vedas of Lord Indra, questioning how it is that illusion can so completely cover the living entity. He was then given a chance to experience, in a moments time (as when the demigods of the higher realm come here, the time is different, an entire live span here is merely a few moments to them) what was life in a hog's body. Living in the body of a hog, enjoying the delicacy of eating stool, having sexual relations with any other pig, whether sister, mother or daughter.....he became very attached to his enjoyments. When his preceptor (I am not recalling the name of who gave him this lesson) came before him, at the end of his life, and said, " You are actually the king of heaven, Indradeva....please leave this situation and come back to heaven " .....Indra in the form of a pig refused. He said, " I am very happy here....I am enjoying eating stool, and being the king of this pen. " Then, one by one, his pig mother, sisters, brothers, all pigs were taken to be slaughtered... when he saw it was his turn, finally he agreed, " Maybe I should return to heaven. " The point is that maya is very very powerful....the illusory energy causes us to feel comfortable so readily.....even when the activities or life style that we may have is abominable. By association of sadhus, coupled with our own desire, we can rise above the gunas. When we meet an individual who is steeped in love, whose heart is overflowing with a sense of happiness stemming from devotion, that is inspiring. Such great souls are rare, but when found, by serving them, one gains a desire and a feeling of that love, whereby all lower happiness is able to be rejected. There is also examples of mother monkey.....if she is jumping from tree to tree, and her baby does not hold on for dear life, baby will be left behind. So, similarly we must find a preceptor (s), one who can give us divine inspiration, and hold tightly for dear life.....to instructions, to the guidance, to the desire, above all, to be a servant rather than an enjoyer of the facilities given by the Lord. There is chapter in Gita on the modes of nature....very good chapter to study. my respects to all, mahalaksmi Dasi ------------------------ Change is the nature of law. God sees the truth, but waits........ Attitude is the perfect word in the English language which adds up to a perfect 100, applying 1 to 26 from A to Z. Regards Ramakrishnan ------------------------ Hari Om: On the human level, we are a physical system following physical laws and as such change is possible and should be adopted for the good of oneself and the society at large. In fundamental control theory of dynamics of physical systems it is stated that ' the state of the body in the next time interval is dictated by two factors: 1. dictated by the nature of the system multiplied by the initial conditions at time 0. and 2. a time integral of the nature multiplied by the external input'. It is this external input that can cause a change in the direction in next step of the time. This is where 'Sat sangha' 'devotional activities to God' 'Yoga' 'Meditation' etc. all will help change the human being into another direction. The bigger is this external input the greater and faster the system goes to Sattwa state and ultimately to salvation. It is all highly logical and can be explained by examples of dynamics of physical bodies of which a human is a perfect example. I am sorry if I have confused the issue more than clarifying but this is what science tells us. Thanks and best of everything in discovering new theories of salvation. B. Vempaty ------------------------- Swabhaav or Guna are independent sub-conscious mind (manah) like underground subway, and intellect (buddhi) is a sort of manifested mind in contemporary reality like visible part of entrance and exit of subway. In another example, seed of lemon is swabhaav or guna and it manifests in nature according to content in the seed. So guna or the swabhaav of lemon cannot be changed by applying any techniques on its intellect or manifested component. No one can make a lemon into growing as mango irrespective of how much fertilizer or water is applied. So changing the swabhaav by external influence is highly unlikely, and even if it occurs, it returns to its own when cooled off. But the lemon can itself and independently can transform itself not by learning but by thinking and detachment from influence of the nature. This process in solitude and self determination is called Yoga. Manah or sub-conscious mind is produced by sankalp or obligation or something incorrect, and this is the reason of taking birth. After the manah is born as life with breath then, condition of manah is like bottled water which is not a free water and it gets manufacture and expiry date printed on it. So the bottled water has certain limitation of the sankalp that it cannot leave half way. In the period of bondage, the water has a given property and function thus, this is helplessness of everyones' life and work. Best regards K G (Krishna Gopal) ------------------------- Sai ram, I congratulate all for this wonderful satsang online. it is a wonderful learning forum. Regarding this question on Guna & Intellect. Allow me to first put these in one language Buddhi is referred to as Intellect and Gun (a) is attribute . Now we can see the difference - Buddhi Vs Guna. Intellect Vs Attribute. It is very important to define the words for our understanding. Attributes or Gunas are the qualities which justify the form or existence. Like, to roar is a attribute of Lion, or... faithfulness is Dogs guna, flickering mind is attribute of monkey; ... similarly we need to identify the attributes or Gunas of Human beings which qualify us to become a Human (they are Sathya, Dharma, Shanti, Prema & Ahimsa). Once we know the basic and true attribute of a being then we can understand that we don't have to worry about 'changing' or 'acquiring' gunas. These are latent and potent in each one of us. the dust of life experience has covered and made us forget it. Sometime the illusion is so strong that we accept the cover (dust) to be our true attributes. and later we find the need to change or acquire... the whole exercise thus is, to remind ourselves of our true Gunas and remove the dust of ignorance or others gunas (jealousy, pride, ego, anger etc).. Buddhi or Intellect is the representative of the self in this physical world, which helps us recognising and understanding our true nature (Gunas). It is buddhi which uses the power of discrimination (exclusively bestowed on Humans) to acknowledge and follow the true path. if a tiger cub being brought up with sheep thinks that it is also a sheep... it is ignorance. it does not need to acquire any extra qualities to become a tiger. It is just a matter of acknowledging its true nature. And he will be a Tiger instantly, for He always was a Tiger. So are we divine, so are we human. waiting for the moment to acknowledge our Divine self/ nature / Guna... then there will be no change or acquiring required. Lastly, it is important to understand that all these question arise out of duality - feeling of separation from the ones own true self. When we realise that we are ONE then the life will be very pleasant. the qualities like Satva, Rajas and Tamas are just an expression of our distance from our own self. A Satvik is one who is closest to his own being (Gunas) and Tamsik is the farthest... enjoy the journey... from God to God...and with God. loving sai ram abhimanyu kaul --------------------------- Hari Om Even Intellect gets into spell of Gunas. Refer Gita 18:30 to 32. This entire universe is evolution of Gunas only. Hence to single out intellect alone will not help. Refer Gita 7:14. These three gunas are powers of Maya. You can conquer them only by surrendering to God. (7:14) But your question/problem in fact is not Gunas. ( I guess so). It is " svabhaav " / habits, which we are born with due to our past deeds. Please note only in human birth you can change /improve your svabhav/habits/tendencies/ automaticness of karmas by you- except those which happen involuntarily to make you reap the results of past karmas.. In no other form of life you can change/improve your svabhav/habits- you can do so only in human life. There it is not intellect but it is jeeva himself who plays the greater role. No svabhav can force you to do forbidden acts- be sure on that. It is also true that based on your karmas , sometimes your intellect gets out of your control and forcefully certain actions are made by the body to punish/reward the jeeva (you) as per his past deeds. That is another subject- operation of Law of Karma. The best way to remove a fault of habits is not to accept it at all in oneself. It will die its natural death. A habit acquires strength only when you accept it as your habit. Ignore, donot believe say for example - " I am angry " or " I am sinful " or " I am greedy " or " I am hot headed " . Simply do not believe that. They will leave you. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B " As fire is covered by smoke, as a mirror by dust, and as an embryo by placenta, so is this (knowledge) concealed by desire. (Gita 3:38) " dhoomenaavriyate vahniryathaadarso malena ca yatholbenaavrato garbhastathaa tenedamaavrtam. " (Gita 3:38) From the above shlok of Gita (3-38), it is clear that we have to do nothing but clean the dust, which has collected in our mind. In my view one should not think much, except that I am of God, for God and by God. Once we accept (just understanding is not enough) this then we don't need much clarification. Which-ever 'Guna' and what-ever be the amount, it doesn't matter. All these are worldly thing. These things matter when we are related to worldly people. When it comes to God, it doesn't matter. We don't need any 'Guna' to know Him. Just accept the only truth of this world. Ram Ram Ashok Goenka ------------------------------ The present concern is - 'do we have any freedom in choosing our actions and attitudes i.e our " nature " --- ' is it possible to go against his or her nature? How? Yes. Everybody is having freedom in choosing their actions and attitudes i.e " nature " . It is possible to go against his or her nature. Kadham chaitaamstreengunanativartate ? Arjuna questioned ' and how Lord, does one rise above the three Gunaas or nature ? The reply is 'Sa gunaansamatityitabrhmabhuuyaayakalpate' ,He too who, constantly worships me through Yoga of devotion ,transcending these three gunaas, he becomes eligible for attaining the Saught. 'Ititegnanamaaghyaatam - Yadhechasitadhaakuru' After telling all the yogaas Krishna,the international councillor asked to 'do as you like after fully pondering over it, giving a choice in choosing ones actins and attitudes. Mr. Maareecharaakshasa changed his actions and attitude after coming into contact with Rama and transformed himself as 'Maareechamaharshi' and tried to enlighten Ravana on Divinity and Humanity and dhaarmic life. 'Nature is a mutable cloud which is always and never the same' -- R.W. Emerson (1803 - 1882) " Nature's mighty law is change " - Robert Burns (1789 - 1796 ) golianjaneyulu ------------------------------ Dear friends, There is a whole chapter on the three Gunas in the Bhagavad Gita --- chapter 17 with 28 verses. Please go through this chapter carefully. May be you should read this chapter several times to get the deeper meaning---meanwhile read more than one commentary available to you-- -Do not restrict to only one of the commentaries, such as that of Adi Sankara...read with open mind----the required knowledge and understanding will ensue by Divine Grace.... Regards, In Sai Smaran, N K Srinivasan ------------------------------- Please review Gita Talk Guidelines before posting a question or responses at: /message/1535 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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