Can There Be No Liberation Without a Guru ?

August 27, 2008

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

There have been some emails sent directly to moderators regarding a

recent daily message by Swamiji on " Can there be no liberation without

a Guru? " . These emails with some comments / issues are listed below-

There were similar questions that have been raised in Gita-talk, but are spread

among various topics and difficult to summarize. Due to there being over 10,000

members, I sincerely request those who want to participate in this discussion,

particularly raise questions / doubts / issues, to please review the past sadhak

daily messages related to Guru (links provided below) and Gita-Talk discussion

(link below), so that we can all leverage the learnings and as far as possible

not repeat the same questions / issues.

Sadhak message links are:

What is a True Spiritual Guide like?

sadhaka/message/1161

Gita View of Guru - Part I & II

sadhaka/message/1129

sadhaka/message/1130

Is it Essential for a Guru to be a Self Realized Soul ?

sadhaka/message/1926

On Guru Disciple Relationship

sadhaka/message/1903

On Guru - Sishya

sadhaka/message/1105

Is it not Essential to Engage in Guru Disciple Relationship ?

sadhaka/message/1819

Worship of Guru - Part 1

sadhaka/message/1738

Worship of Guru - Part 2

sadhaka/message/1739

God is Guru of this Universe

sadhaka/message/1661

Qualities of a True Spiritual Guide or Guru

sadhaka/message/1659

Real Guru is your discrimination:

sadhaka/message/1547

There is no Sin in letting go of false Guru

sadhaka/message/1484

Who can be considered a Guru?

sadhaka/message/1301

Gita Talk discussion links are at:

/message/1121

Please keep discussions to half a page and relevant to the specific question

only. Please all review remaining Gita Talk guidelines.

/message/1535

(these guidelines are being updated based on recent feedback, please be patient)

From Gita-Talk Moderators

Ram Ram

----------------------------

Hare Krishna

Yes, there is no liberation without Guru. And the Hindu world is

not free from Guru Ghantals (Fake Gurus). At every four steps there is

Guru. Guru's glorification is upto such an amount that Gurus tend to

have published their own photos, feet-photos, blessing photos and what

not. Yesterday I was watching Aastha International and listening

Satpal Maharaj's Son's Upadesh. On Stage Satpal Ji is sitting beside

his Dharampatni. Entire Guru Family--father, mother and son are there

on stage. What a Virat Darshan of Gurus. Everybody is Guru. Innocent

Persons from Himachal Pradesh, Uttarakhand etc. have gathered to

listen. In India Guru,Guru and countless Gurus. Ironically, when my

son listened Shri Gita Shloka from Satpalji's mouth, he literraly

laughed when self-imposed, self-proclaimed Guruji said---Nainam

Chchindanti Shaastrani......in place of Shastrani (Ch 2 Verse 23).

Shaastrani means Scriptures and Shastrani means weapons. Such Gurus

are a lot who are promoting their sons.

As a matter of fact there is only one and one Guru who is Shri

Krishna--Shri Krishnam Vande Gagat Gurum. Shri Gita is the only

scripture on this planet Earth which can guide us truthfully. Shri

Krishna is the the the only Guru.

Teshamev Anukampartham Aham Agyanjam Tamah

Nashayamyaatma Bhavastho Gyan Deepen Bhasvataa....

Shri Gita Ch. 10 Verse 11

Hare Krishna

Mahesh Sharma

----------------------------

My dandavat pranams to all

I find the article below to be total hypocrisy. A person is

saying, " don't accept guru " ....but in their mode of presentation, they

are giving instruction as a guru!!! People are accepting, " Yes, this

is the way I will follow, based on teachings of this man " . So, they

are accepting guru. It is unavoidable.....one MUST look for guidance.

To not admit to doing so, is hypocrisy. It is a falsehood, and one

should be honest and abandon deceit.

A misunderstanding is that a person can become guru. Guru is

not made, not that today I am qualified, but tomorrow I may fall away.

That person had no business calling himself guru......however, a true

aspirant may see ANYONE, even a prostitute, a deer, or a moth as his

guru. Guru is external manifestation of Paramatma.....to see him as

an ordinary man is a great offense. This is stated in the padma Purana:

arcye visnau sila-dhir gurusu nara-matir vaisnave jati bddhir

visnor va vaisnavanam kali mala mathane pada tirthe " mbu-buddhih

sri-visnor namni mantre sakala-kalusa-he sabda-samanya-buddhir

visnau sarvesvare tad-itara-sama-dhir yasya va naraki sah

" One who considers the worshipable Deity to be stone; who considers

the Vaisnava Guru to be a mortal man, or who considers a Vaisnava to

be limited by the confines of caste, lineage, or creed, who considers

the holy foot wash of Lord Visnu (Ganga water) or af a Vaisnava

(caranamrta) to be ordinary water; who considers the holy Name (the

Hare Krsna maha-mantra) which vanquishes all sins, to be material

sound vibration, and who consider the God of gods, Lord Visnu, to be

merely on the level of demigods, such a person, becomes a resident of

hell. "

respectfully submitted, Mahalaksmi Dasi

-----------------------------

shree hari

ram ram

Mahalakshmiji, Please re-read the daily posting and find out

specific sentence, line, point that you disagree with Swamiji's messsage.

I truly believe Swamiji is saying learn from all, do not get stuck.....as it is

guru tattva...and not a specific individual who locks one into discipleship and

is trading in knowledge. (accepting gifts). Again, it is important that if

you disagree, you are able to point out specific points that Swamiji made, which

you disagree with.

Swamiji is not trading in money. He did not ever carry money or ever

take any gifts from anyone or anything of that sort for revealing

these secrets. He did not make any one a disciple or gave

mantra, or mala...etc. Again, in all his writings he is saying that your

intense longing, desire is more important then the guru-disciple formal

relationship. Guru can take you to the water, but ultimately it is up to you to

drink. So ultimately it is you, that is what Swamiji is conveying.

Again please point out specific statements of Swamiji and raise concerns and not

just generalities.

thank you for your time and patience.

Ram Ram

Gita-talk moderator

------------------------------

My dandavat pranams to all in this forum,

I am praying for patience to explain a topic which I find to be

quite painful to present.....the pain is in that I don't wish to have

any arguement with those who are of a particular mind set....however,

I find that there are many statements in the article below which could

be seen to be contradicting themselves....however, in the Absolute

sense, I see their consistency.... To begin, the first line states,

" That which we wish to attain, the Supreme essence " ......and then the

fourth sentence states, " that Supreme Soul (consciousness) is ever

attained by all beings "

So, with deepest regard to Sri RamSukhadasji, I beg his kindness

and permission to comment on his words. He is saying first, " that

which we wish to attain " .....hence, God consciousness, full absorption

in the Supreme, is NOT already attained by all. He is himself stating,

" that which we wish to attain " . What I am hearing from him, and I

again beg his kindness to help me understand, is that not everyone at

this time HAS attained the supreme consciousness. However, an uttama

adhikari, one who is on the top most rungs of devotion to God, cannot

help but, within themselves, perceive everyone else as perfectly

serving God....although he is simultaneously aware that they are NOT

already there. So, the contradictory phrase becomes reconciled.

But, accepted that there are many souls in the conditioned state,

who honestly admit that they have NOT attained full awareness of the

Supreme, what to be done? My answer to this is to find one who knows,

find a teacher, a preceptor, a guru.

For fear of making this to long and thus unprintable, I will stop

here, and wait until tomorrow to furthur analyze what, to me, are

misconceptions which persons are having about the idea of guru.

Mahalakshmi Dasi

--------------------------

Hare Krsna !!!

GURU

=====

In Bhagavad Gita the Sloka " Tad Viddhi Prani paadena Pariprasnena

Sevaya, Upadesanti te Gnanam Gnanina tattva darsinah " clearly state

the importance of accepting a GURU. For everything we need GURU, be

it material knowledge or Spiritual knowledge. Is there any one who

has obtained a PHD Degree without taking lessons from teachers ? If

that is the case for material knowledge then what to speak of

Spiritual knowledge ? GURU is one who imparts knowledge and to get

that knowledge one should be inquisitive to know and submissive in his

service. GURU IS NOT A TRADER who gives somthing and takes somthing

in return. There are certain qualifications required to become GURU

and also certain qualifications required for becoming a desciple.

Guru means one who dissipates the darkness of ignorance by the

illumination of knowledge. Another meaning of GURU is HEAVY. Guru

should be heavy and only then the disciples will be obedient and take

to the right path.

Haribol

SIVASANKARAN

--------------------------

shree hari

ram ram

Haribol, Swamiji was of the mindset that people instead of seeing something

divine in any individual and becoming engaged with a particular person, should

become engaged directly with God. He was totally and strongly against worship

and puja of a person, an individual.

The Gita verse does not talk about engaging in Guru - Disciple

relationship. Swami has said about Gita 4:34. " In Gita 4:34 and Gita 13:7,

the Lord has advised such a devotee to receive instructions from a teacher,

through devotion. In this discipline, a preceptor is a must. Not being fully

aware of the perfection of a preceptor or the preceptor not being perfect, it

becomes very difficult for spiritual aspirants to maintain their faith. Thus

there remains the possibility of delays in one's spiritual practices. "

Swamiji also says - karma yoga is easier to practice than jnana yog

because - " The path of action can be followed by all, (different caste, creed,

order of life etc) under all circumstances. But the path of Sannyasa

(renunciate), that Arjuna talks about can be followed only under special

circumstances as explained in Gita 4:34, since all cannot come across great

Souls who have realized the Truth. Moreover, they cannot have complete faith in

these great Souls and even more so, they do not have an opportunity to live in

their company. Thus Karmayoga is better of the two. " Please read Swamiji's

explanation on the Gita verse at -

sadhaka/message/1926

sadhaka/message/1130

Hope this helps, but if not, please take specific statements of

Swamiji that you disagree with and we can address. Thank you for

taking the time,

Ram Ram

Gita Talk Moderator

-------------------------------

Hare Krsna !!!

Thanks for your reply.

GURU is a via medium to approach the Supreme Lord. Just like one

cannot approach a big person directly but to approach thru his

secretary. Similarly Guru imparts the knowledge and shows the right

path to the Supreme Lord as he has received it from his Guru through

the unbroken chain of disciplic succession. (Evam parampara praptam

emam rajasrayo viduh ....) This knowledge is coming directly from the

Supreme Lord, Krishna through bonafide disciplic succession. This

knowledge is called APAURUSHEYA - means not man made knowledge. The

process of receiving this knowledge is through SABDA PRAMAN from the

vedic authorities.

One should be very careful in selecting a GURU. He should be a

bonafide GURU falling in any of the four authentic sampradayas coming

in disciplic succession and preach the message of the Supreme Lord

Krishna AS IT IS without any concoction or mental speculation. Even

Lord Krishna accepted a Guru - this is to set an example for the

general people like us to follow - otherwise what was the necessity

for the Supreme Lord Krishna to accept a Guru ?

And it is not necessary to always associate with GURU personally. One

can associate with the GURU through VAANI by executing his

instructions. VAPU (personal association) with Guru is not always

possible. Shastra says that one should follow in the footsteps of

Guru, Sadhu & Shastra to save ourselves from gliding down. GURU helps

us to cross over the ocean of material nescience just like a ship

captain very safely take us accross the ocean. With our own endeavour

it will be very difficult to achieve the task and with the help of the

GURU be it VAANI or VAPU it becomes much easier - the material ocean

becomes just like water contained in the calf's hoofprint and we can

just cross over it without any difficulty. Another example: Suppose

we have to climb the stair-case to get to the 100th floor of the

building how much time it will take and how tedious it would be but

GURU can take you through a Lift which is faster and easier.

Regarding the Yoga, Bhakti yoga is the simplest & easiest process

recommended in the age of Kali and Bhakti yoga is the culmination of

all other yogas. Lord Srikrishna says in the concluding chapter of

Bhagavad Gita - manmana bhava mad bhakto, madhyajimaam

namaskuru........ Karma yoga in Krishna Consciousness is Bhakti yoga.

Do all the activities for the satisfaction of the Supreme Lord

Krishna and not for our personal sense gratification. We have

already enjoyed our senses in other lower species of lives for

millions and millions of years and now since we have been blessed with

a human form of life we should not waste this precious human form in

which form only we have the intelligence, higher reasoning power,

inquisitiveness to know the absolute truth. We should use the rare &

precious human form of life to liberate ourselves from the material

bondage rather going up and down transmigrating through different

species of lives.

This is my humble understanding as taught by HDG Srila Prabhupada, the

Iskcon Founder Acharya who falls in the disciplic succession of

Brahma-Madhava-Gaudiya sampradaya.

Haribol

-------------------------------

-Shree Hari-

I found this article the most brilliant subject matter on the whole

conundrum of Guru I have ever read.

Buddha, (the best as I remember), quoted, 'One may take something to

be the Truth, but do not grasp onto it too tightly, for when the

truth comes knocking at your door, you may not answer it'.

I see these words of Swami Ramsukhdasji shouting loudly at the

confused world, his words are surely knocking at the door.

With Respect and Divine Love.

Mike Keenor

--------------------------------

SWAMIJI'S MESSAGE:

Shree Hari:

27th August, 2008, Wednesday

Bhadrapad Krishna Ekadashi, Vikram Samvat 2065, Budhvar

That which we wish to attain, that Supreme Essence, That

Consciousness is not concentrated in one particular place. It cannot

be captured or captivated by any one. If that was the case, then how

would That Eternal and Supreme Essence benefit us ? That Supreme

Soul (Consciousness) is ever attained by all beings. Those great

souls that have realized this Supreme Essence, neither become Gurus,

nor take any fees (gifts). In fact, they openly share their

learnings with all. Rather, those that do not become Gurus, are able

to reveal about the Supreme Essence in a manner that those who

become Gurus are unable to share.

Individuals that transact or trade their teachings are not Gurus.

Those that say - first become my disciple (student), then I will

reveal to you the path towards God Realization, are like traders of

God. It is a principle that the price that a particular item is sold

for, the actual value of the item is less then the listed price.

Just like a watch which is available for Rs 1,000, it would cost

lesser than Rs 1,000 for the shopkeeper to purchase that item for

resale. If by making someone a Guru, something is attained, then the

thing attained will be less value than the Guru himself has. Then

with that weaker thing, how can God be attained? God is priceless. A

priceless thing is only attained without a price, and that which is

attained for a price, is weaker than the listed price. Therefore if

anyone says, I will reveal to you the real essence, if you become my

disciple then, kindly join your hands in gesture " no thank you " and

keep a distance ! Understand this to be some Kaalnemi !

Kaalnemi, the demon, the false Guru came to Hanumanji and said -

" Ser majjan kari aatur aavahu; dicchaa devu gyaan jehi paavahu. "

(Manasa. Lankaa. 57:4)

On hearing this, Hanumanji said - first take the gift, thereafter

give the secret mantra, and immediately thereafter Hanumanji by

wrapping his tail around the demon, lifted him and threw him down.

God has clearly stated in the Gita -

" Uddharedaatmanaatm aanam naatmaanamvasaadaye t

Aatmaiva hyaatmano bandhuraatmaiva ripuraatamanah " (Gita 6:5)

" A man must raise himself by his own effort. He must not degrade

himself; for the Self is his own friend and the Self is also his

own enemy. " (Gita 6:5)

The point is that man alone is responsible for his own spiritual

upliftment or downfall. No one else is. God has bestowed this human

body, and with it, he has given all the necessary tools to attain

salvation. Therefore, one does not need anyone else for one's

salvation.

Guru (spiritual guide), Saints and God, uplift the soul only after

man himself has trust and faith in them. Only after man accepts them

(Guru, Saints, God), comes to them, and follows their directions. If

man does not accept them, then how are they to do anything for man's

salvation? They simply cannot do anything. If you do not become a

student, then what can a teacher do for you? Just like some other

person can come and drop off a meal at your home, but the hunger

must come from within. If there is no hunger within, than what use

is there of delicious food preparations that are placed in front of

you?

Guru, Saint and God are never non-existent. There have been many

great Saints, Teachers, Gurus and Avatars (God's manifestations on

Earth), but until now we have not attained salvation ! It becomes

clear from this, that we have not accepted them. Thus, in our

upliftment or downfall, we alone are responsible. Those who believe

that someone else is responsible for their upliftment or

degradation, they will never be uplifted. They can never be

benefited with this belief.

In reality, man himself is his own Guru - " Aatmano Gururaatmaiyva

Purushasya Vishehataha. " (Srimadbhag 11:7:20). Therefore discourses

are for your own self. Knowing this, see faults in your own self and

seek to remove them, instead of seeing faults in others.

From " Kyaa Guru Bina Mukti Nahin ? " by Swami Ramsukhdasji in Hindi

on page 28-29

Ram Ram

August 29, 2008

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

There have been some emails sent directly to moderators regarding a

recent daily message by Swamiji on " Can there be no liberation without a Guru? " .

These emails with some comments / issues are listed below-

There were similar questions that have been raised in Gita-talk, but are spread

among various topics and difficult to summarize. Due to there being over 10,000

members, I sincerely request those who want to participate in this discussion,

particularly raise questions / doubts / issues, to please review the past sadhak

daily messages related to Guru (links provided below) and Gita-Talk discussion

(link below), so that we can all leverage the learnings and as far as possible

not repeat the same questions / issues.

Sadhak message links on Guru are at :

What is a True Spiritual Guide like?

sadhaka/message/1161

Gita View of Guru - Part I & II

sadhaka/message/1129

sadhaka/message/1130

Is it Essential for a Guru to be a Self Realized Soul ?

sadhaka/message/1926

On Guru Disciple Relationship

sadhaka/message/1903

On Guru - Sishya

sadhaka/message/1105

Is it not Essential to Engage in Guru Disciple Relationship ?

sadhaka/message/1819

Worship of Guru - Part 1

sadhaka/message/1738

Worship of Guru - Part 2

sadhaka/message/1739

God is Guru of this Universe

sadhaka/message/1661

Qualities of a True Spiritual Guide or Guru

sadhaka/message/1659

Real Guru is your discrimination:

sadhaka/message/1547

There is no Sin in letting go of false Guru

sadhaka/message/1484

Who can be considered a Guru?

sadhaka/message/1301

Gita Talk discussion links are at:

/message/1121

Please re-read the daily posting and find out specific sentence,

line, point that you disagree with Swamiji's messsage. Please keep

discussions to half a page and relevant to the specific question

only. Please review remaining Gita Talk guidelines.

/message/1535

thank you for your time and patience.

Ram Ram

Gita-talk moderator

-------------------------------

NEW POSTING

-Shree Hari-

I have pasted a part of the original article, it speaks volumes:

'Guru, Saint and God are never non-existent. There have been many

great Saints, Teachers, Gurus and Avatars (God's manifestations on

Earth), but until now we have not attained salvation ! It becomes

clear from this, that we have not accepted them. Thus, in our

upliftment or downfall, we alone are responsible. Those who believe

that someone else is responsible for their upliftment or

degradation, they will never be uplifted. They can never be

benefited with this belief.'

Now consider this, one desires the Divine Truth with a passion, one

will have insights experiences, these experiences can become a

yardstick to measure the worth of those whom maybe of help to one.

One will recognize the astounding reality of a chance meeting maybe,

someone might be of support when one most needs support, so many

coincidences can occur.

One is dealing with the indwelling Supreme, that Indwelling will make itself

known. By taking up ones own ego belief to what one requires of a guru, and

going on search for such; is expressed by a Sufi story:

A man spied another man under a street lamp on his hands and knees

searching for something, " What are you looking for he asked " , " my

keys, I've lost my keys " the reply. After a fruitless search the

helper said, " Are you sure you lost them here under the lamp? " , " Oh

no, I lost them over there in the dark, but I can see a lot better

here under the lamp! " . Comment, wrong lamp!

(I have taken the lead of Maheshji ):

B.G. 10:11 'Out of mere compassion for them, I, dwelling within their

Self, destroy the darkness born of ignorance by the luminous lamp of

knowledge.' B.G. 10:12. 'You are the Supreme Brahman, the supreme

abode (or the supreme light), the supreme purifier, the eternal,

divine Person, the primeval God, unborn and omnipresent.'

The worship of the primeval God, is for all mankind without

exception, and the desire for liberation is born in all of us, but we

may have to step out of the light of comfort and dogma, and trust in

the guidance of the Supreme Light.

With Respect and Divine Love.

Mike

(Mike Keenor)

-----------------------------

Thanks Mahesh Bhaiyya and. Brother Mike Keenor !

Did you notice. Brothers? - people saying that there are secretaries already

existing in this universe, Jee - appointed by our Daddy - and if you are

interested in realisation you must move through them ! Direct realisation. No

kitkit, no jhik jhik. No practice. No ego less ness. No karan sapeksha, no karan

nirpeksha. No sadhana. No Sadhak. No time required. Just Come, Register with us

and Go straight to Gau Loka. Don't you know who we are? Secretaries ! Agents !!

Did not you read Gita? Padam Purana ?? Direct authorised agents !!!

Raam Raam Raam ! !

Official appointees under verse 4:34 of Gitaji ! Licence holders ! Direct

recepient of knowledge Jee! Sabd Purana Jee! From Lord Krishna Jee !

Apaurushayam Bhaiyya !! Lineage !!!! Wah Re Kaliyuga? (Hats off to you Kaliyuga

!)

Raam . Raam. Raam.

Shashikala

------------------------------

Guru is always there inside with each one of us. He only introduces meanings of

things around us. Even visible as mother, father, teacher, friends, and even

enemy. So, the objects that ignite minds are Guru. The real guru is inside and

educational objects are outside.

Krishna is the last Guru, Shiva is father and 2nd Guru, Paarvati is mother and

1st Guru. Ram Charit Maanas thus says:

Bhawani Shankarau Vande Shiddha Vishwas Roopinau

Yabhaam Bina n pashyanti, Siddhah Swantah Sthameeshwaram.

Mother is the Bhawani who is Sriddha or giver of the container (worthiness) to

hold the knowledge, and Shiva the father gives the vishwas or fills the

container with the content ( knowledge or book). Lastly, the person with the

container and content goes inside to find Ishwar who is the teacher, and

develops understanding.

Without Guru, thus, to enter inside our own heart where Isht lives, is not

possible. If you follow the Guru, you will have no conflict but if you have it

for reason of others, the Guru will save you himself. So, names and prayer of

Guru have physical effects, and thoughts of Guru has intellectual effect.

Siya Ram maay sab jag jaani, Karahu Pranaam jori yug paani.

I now know how the whole world is filled and operated by Sita and Ram

So, I pray to the world by folded hands.

Regards

K G Misra

===============================================================

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