One's Duty

September 14, 2008

-Shree Hari-

Dear Sadhaks, I am seeking clarification of the following verses in

Gitaji Chapt. 18. Juxtaposed.

48. One should not abandon, Arjuna, the duty to which one is born,

Though faulty; for, all undertakings are enveloped by evil, as fire

by smoke! (Gita 18:48)

66. Abandoning all duties, take refuge in me alone; I will free you

from all sins; so do not grieve. (Gita 18:66)

I seem to recall else where in B.G. That one should do ones duty.

With Respect and Divine Love,

Mike Keenor

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

Please also read the following somewhat related prior discussions:

TOPIC: Definition of Duty and Some Clarifications (Click Link below)

/message/587

TOPIC: Do we have choice of Action? - (Click link below)

/message/1298

TOPIC: What is Our Duty ? How to Decide ?

/message/1223

TOPIC: How to be detached: Duty and Knowledge?

/message/435

If someone has the time and would like to take the lead to summarize

the prior discussions that are pertinent to the current question,

and to share with group, it will be invaluable help to all.

Thank you !

Gita Talk Moderator

Ram Ram

--------------------------------

GUIDELINES FOR POSTING A RESPONSE:

1. The group is focused on the Holy Gitaji, therefore, only

responses which further clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will be

posted.

2. Making reference of Gitaji shloka is highly encouraged - at least

once in the response. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or

other scriptures to substantiate your response.

3. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting

sadhaka's time. Under no circustance the answer should be limited to

half a book page, at the most 3-4 paragraphs.

4. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the

extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas

5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only.

6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other

organizations (we do not have the bandwidth to review links to

determine if content is appropriate for distribution).

7. Complete reproduction of texts from any book is strongly

discouraged, however partial cut - paste is acceptable and

references may be made of the book or author(but not links to other

sites).

8. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone

number, address etc.

9. Please use appropriate judgement and only address the response to

a particular individual, where it makes sense to do so.

10. Due to the large readership, only those responses will be posted

which are in line with the general philosophy of taking Shrimad

Bhagavad Gita as the reference.

11. Moderator will reject any content that does not meet guidelines.

However, for expediency, moderator at his discretion, may modify /

delete portions of the posting for mispelling, wordiness that is

irrelevant to the overall core discussion, personal information,

opinions / feelings etc. that do not align with guidelines.

12. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth,

westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use of only

Sanskrit words, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit

bracketed wherever possible.

13. Any personal remarks over the knowledge of any sadhak or about

the stage at which any sadhak is standing in his quest / sadhna /

spiritual journey - must not be included in your posting. Also,

there should not be any sarcasm towards fellow sadhaks in this

spiritual learning and sharing.

MODERATOR

Ram Ram

September 14, 2008

-Shree Hari-

Dear Sadhaks, I am seeking clarification of the following verses in

Gitaji Chapt. 18. Juxtaposed.

48. One should not abandon, Arjuna, the duty to which one is born,

Though faulty; for, all undertakings are enveloped by evil, as fire

by smoke! (Gita 18:48)

66. Abandoning all duties, take refuge in me alone; I will free you

from all sins; so do not grieve. (Gita 18:66)

I seem to recall else where in B.G. That one should do ones duty.

With Respect and Divine Love,

Mike Keenor

Hari Om

Mike. In BG 18:66 , “abandoning all duties” means , renouncing the “shelter of

all duties”, not the abandoning physically the performance of the duties. You

can even afford to leave the decision making itself with reference to the duty,

as to whether something is your duty or not, also to Paramatma under this verse.

But under no circumstance, the duties should be renounced/abandoned physically

! You can simply offer all karmas made by you to Him , under this verse.

If we take the stand that “duty” physically should be abandoned, then neither

the specific reference under 18:66 gets satisfactorily explained, nor the prior

references nor the post reaction of Arjuna justifies that interpretation. Entire

Chapter 3 of BG then will prove to be futile. Arjuna, too, after hearing this ,

did not relinquish his duty, viz fighting . He said in 18:73- “karishye vachanam

tav”- I shall do what you say. We also in 18:66 should keep doing our duties but

should not get entangled in deciding what is our duty and we should not depend

on the duty. We should offer our karmas to Paramatma. You cant abandon karma

even if you want to. It is a law. You can, however, convert those karmas into

“akarmas” ( non binding karmas) by either renouncing the “doership” ( Jnana

Yoga), or renouncing the results thereof ( Karma Yoga) or offering them to

Parasmatma (Bhakti Yoga). The karma should not bind you, it should not result in

repeated birth-that is all is needed. The shelter of duty is does produce a

binding for yout . You may also fall then under BG 9:21. Hence under no

circumstance, you should renounce your duties. You should not depend upon them.

You should depend upon God instead.

As regards 18:48, please note it is related with Karma Yoga. Entire Chapter 3

talks in unison regarding performing one’s duty to the best of one’s ability.

What is duty? Duty is – “WHAT YOU CAN DO AND WHAT YOU SHOULD DO”. That is all

the duty is. This is the best definition of duty for sadhaks - coming straight

from Swamiji. In Jnana Yoga there is no such question arising, because there the

sadhak starts with a determination- I don’t do anything. In Karma Yoga only this

question can arise. BG 18:48 is guiding principle for a Karma Yogi. In Bhakti

Yoga , particularly, in surrender such a question does not again arise. You are

no more there. You have surrendered yourself to God. Now where is the question

of any right, duty, obligation, righteousness? When such question arises in your

life after surrender, Paramatma shall take care of you- MAA SUCHAH . Only He is

there and you are a toy in His hand. There is neither doership, nor

renouncership, nor consumption (enjoyment or suffering) of results. In fact what

has gone to the winds, is entire concept of duty for a sadhak - MAA SUCHAH.

Mike after surrender, YOU HAVE ONLY ONE DUTY LEFT FOR YOU - MAA SUCHAH – Don’t

worry. Simply throw all cautions, all dependences, all cares, all worries, all

fears, all apprehensions, all anxieties- simply throw them away. You have no

duty. All get transferred to Paramatma. You remain- Worriless, griefless,

fearless, doubtless- just observing the Divine playing through you, your mind,

your body, your actions, and your surroundings - you should simply then enjoy

that bliss of Paramatma playing in you. Simple !

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

-------------------------------

NARAYAN NARAYAN

In English

Serving the world and God Realization (Love with God)

Ramchandra

in Hindi

SANSAAR KI SEVA OR BHAGWAT PRAPTI(BHAGWAN SE PREM)

(RAMCHANDRA)

--------------------------------

Jai Hanuman

Once you surrender yourself to God under 18:66, you can only do duties - Jee !

What else you can do Jee !! Hence you can only give relying on that duty.!!!

Neither Arjuna gave up doing His duties after hearing Gita, nor we should. Our

aim/bhava then should not be to get into decision making. We have to depend upon

God not upon duty. That is all 18:66 means. After you have surrendered yourself

to God - prohibited actions CANNOT be done by body/mind etc. NOT POSSIBLE !

Only sometimes a dilemma may arise – should I do /Should I not do / What should

I do type! Leave that to Him-put aside all confusion regarding duty, Jee ! Keep

doing as per your “bhava” (inner sentiments / expression) without bothering

whether it was right or wrong. Along with you, your mind, intellect, ego, body

all get surrendered ! Nothing then needs to be done/thought/relied upon. Rely

upon God and upon your “conscience” while taking decisions. Leave everything

else to Daddy. No worry. No thinking. Become “MAST” (blissful). Allow God to

operate through you. Where are you then? It is Daddy all along Jee !

DIL NE HAMSE JO KAHAA , HAMNE VAISA HI KIYA ! PHIR KABHI FURSAT SE SOCHENGE

BHALA THA YA BURA!!

Whatever heart ( conscience) told me, I did that. Only when I am free , I shall

think whether I did good or bad !!

Become free, Bhaiyya !

Namaste Jee

Jee Jee

Shashikala

--------------------------------

Ram Ram,

In Gita 18-48, Krishna says to those who are beginners, do your

regular routine work. In Gita 18-66 Krishna says, you take refuge in

me, you work only for me. Doing that (working for Him) if you do any

sin, I will take care of it. Nowhere He has denied for work, he

denies to work for the benefit of self. This is advance stage.

Please read all verses between 48th and 66th very carefully. Don't

get confused. the message is very clear.

Ashok Goenka

--------------------------------

Bhagwat Gita says about swabhaav (self nature) or state of

subconscious mind which one should not ignore. Any one is more at

ease and is efficient in its unique way of self-realization. For

example, a great artist in India Amitabh Bacchan decided to launch a

commecial enterprise and he failed in it miserably. His choice of

work ruined him. After he came back to art and acting in film, he

was again OK.

This means, every one has to follow his/her unique self-nature

during period of the journey of life. A seed of lemon cannot produce

tree of mango irrespective of the soil or water or fertilizer poured

in it. Each one of us are unique and born in complete from the day

1, and hence, it stands no competition or comparison to influence

it. This understanding nature of self is called DUTY.

For me, Krishna is humanities, for a artist, Krishna is a dancer,

for a warrior, Krishna is a warrior. So the teacher is one but

students have different subjects of study depending on their self-

development of mind. The duty or swabhaav thus changes and students

carry out the education of life within its limitation.

best regards

KG

(Krishna Gopal)

------------------------------

Hari Om

The duty in this life is to unite with God within and in the world.

In this unity one has to perform his duties as if not attached to it.

Love,

Chris Duindam

-------------------------------

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

Please also read the following somewhat related prior discussions:

TOPIC: Definition of Duty and Some Clarifications (Click Link below)

/message/587

TOPIC: Do we have choice of Action? - (Click link below)

/message/1298

TOPIC: What is Our Duty ? How to Decide ?

/message/1223

TOPIC: How to be detached: Duty and Knowledge?

/message/435

If someone has the time and would like to take the lead to summarize

the prior discussions that are pertinent to the current question,

and to share with group, it will be invaluable help to all.

Thank you !

Gita Talk Moderator

Ram Ram

--------------------------------

GUIDELINES FOR POSTING A RESPONSE:

1. The group is focused on the Holy Gitaji, therefore, only

responses which further clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will be

posted.

2. Making reference of Gitaji shloka is highly encouraged - at least

once in the response. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or

other scriptures to substantiate your response.

3. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting

sadhaka's time. Under no circustance the answer should be limited to

half a book page, at the most 3-4 paragraphs.

4. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the

extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas

5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only.

6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other

organizations (we do not have the bandwidth to review links to

determine if content is appropriate for distribution).

7. Complete reproduction of texts from any book is strongly

discouraged, however partial cut - paste is acceptable and

references may be made of the book or author(but not links to other

sites).

8. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone

number, address etc.

9. Please use appropriate judgement and only address the response to

a particular individual, where it makes sense to do so.

10. Due to the large readership, only those responses will be posted

which are in line with the general philosophy of taking Shrimad

Bhagavad Gita as the reference.

11. Moderator will reject any content that does not meet guidelines.

However, for expediency, moderator at his discretion, may modify /

delete portions of the posting for mispelling, wordiness that is

irrelevant to the overall core discussion, personal information,

opinions / feelings etc. that do not align with guidelines.

12. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth,

westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use of only

Sanskrit words, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit

bracketed wherever possible.

13. Any personal remarks over the knowledge of any sadhak or about

the stage at which any sadhak is standing in his quest / sadhna /

spiritual journey - must not be included in your posting. Also,

there should not be any sarcasm towards fellow sadhaks in this

spiritual learning and sharing.

MODERATOR

Ram Ram

September 15, 2008

-Shree Hari-

Dear Sadhaks, I am seeking clarification of the following verses in

Gitaji Chapt. 18. Juxtaposed.

48. One should not abandon, Arjuna, the duty to which one is born,

Though faulty; for, all undertakings are enveloped by evil, as fire

by smoke! (Gita 18:48)

66. Abandoning all duties, take refuge in me alone; I will free you

from all sins; so do not grieve. (Gita 18:66)

I seem to recall else where in B.G. That one should do ones duty.

With Respect and Divine Love,

Mike Keenor

NEW POSTING

Hari Om

Swamiji has said categorically in Sadhak Sanjeevani - that after

surrender , (i) Never worry (ii) Never doubt (iii) Never test as to

actually you have surrendered or not (iv) Never Fear and (v) Never

grieve ! These 5 in fact are your real functions , after you

surrender ! What real tests they are- Believe me !!

Renouncing the mind, makes you worriless! All worries originate from

there!! So does assurance given by Him in 9:31.It is responsibility

of God to remove your doubts (BG 7:21). Strong Faith and belief in

Him, destroys the fear so does assurance under 9:31 ( My Bhakta shall

Never fall ). Reading of Scriptures also makes you fearless. That

you are immortal , this knowledge kills the worst fears.

To be griefless- This is the toughest test. Because after surrender,

an avalanche of His Kripa comes into your life. Your sins have to

start getting destroyed in a super fast manner- as promised by God-

isn't it ??

Your aeons old chains of " me " and " mine " start getting broken,

ruthlessly. A serious dent takes place in that almost everyday-

creating pain in you.. Worldly relations break abruptly-creating

pain in you. The " mineness " ruthlessly starts getting destroyed-

creating pain in you. Sometimes you feel that each and every

happenning in your life is only to hurt your " ego " . Both " me "

and " mine " take a severe beating.

Silverlining -

In fact we were in a " surrendered " mode the day we first time

prayed. We " surrendered " on that day itself- we do not know. It

is " habit " of God- even if someone " talks " of surrender, His laws

quickly start operating to make that guy surrender totally/ really.

Hence Saints and Sages sing praises of adversity/ sorrow in your

life. Hence whatever so far has taken place - be thankful for the

same. Cleaning over upto that, at least !!

" Ma suchah " ( worry/grieve not) is, according to my personal view,

biggest duty of a sadhak under 18:66 ! He must abandon grief/worry.

A real challenge !

Arjuna " talked " only in 2nd Chapter regarding Surrender- he did not

surrender " actually " . The " real " surrender was when he said - "

karishye vachanam tav " . (BG 18:73). ( Here the " dependence on duty "

was thrown by Arjuna not the " duty " itself - He did not say " I

shall fight " , as against what he said in 2nd Chapter - " I shall not

fight " , instead he decided to depend on Krishna- I shall do what

you say and not on duty )

Mike - Note how ruthlessly Krishna after Arjuna merely " talked "

about surrender in BG 2nd Chapter, destroyed the authenticity/

wisdom/ utterings/ ideology/notions/ dharma/ principles -whatever

Arjuna's mind/intellect/ego delivered in Chapter 1 and 2 upto 2:10,

and even upto 18:59 ???

Krishna ruthlessly demolished every argument of Arjuna. Tell me

which of his argument was upheld in toto by Krishna? Think

academically about it- except one small agreement in Chapter 6.

That is how things move after surrender, " automatically " . Your

ego/intellect/mind is destroyed by Krishna ruthlessly, mercilessly !!

Feel that destruction, enjoy that beating, with the protection,

love and guarantees of our Eternal Father. Be ready for that. Be

assured that with every hit a purity shall emerge in you. Love that.

Adore that, Wait for that , Hope for that ! Marvel at that! Pray

for that. (Kunti did that). Never forget 5 principles given by

Swamiji- they are your warriors in the war.They are your weapons !!!

Believe in His immortal words - na me bhaktah pransyati ( BG 9:31).

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

--------------------------------

Jai Hanuman

Mike Bhaiyya !

On this subject of surrender, Jee - Let me sing the song which

Swamiji so sweetly sang and which was played whole day on His

Nirvaan Day ( 3/07/2005) uninterruptedly on a TV channel across the

Globe -

NAATH THAARE SHARANE AYO JEE - JACHE JIS TARAH KHEL KHILAAWO THE MAN

CHAYO JEE!

O God! I have surrendered to you. Now you are free to make me

dance / play at your tunes/ wish!

BOJHO SABHI UTAR GAYO MAN KO , DUKH BISRAAYO JEE ! CHINTA MITI BADE

CHARANON KO SAHARO PAYO JEE ! !

All the weight on my person has gone away, and I have forgotten all

the sorrows! I have now become worryless /sorrowless , as I have

taken refuge into your powerful lotus feet !!

SOCH FIKAR AB SARO THARE OOPAR AYO JEE ! MAIN TO AB NISCHINTA HUYO

ANTAR HARKHAYO JEE !!

All worries/ anxieties (of me) are now yours only ! I have now

become worry less/fear less and my soul has indeed become blissful !!

JAS APJAS SAB THARO, MAIN TO DAAS KAHAYO JEE ! MAN BHANWARO THARE

CHARAN KAMAL PAR JAA LIPTAYO JEE !!

My fame and ill fame - all is now yours as I am now known as your

servant(surrendered) ! My mind has now become a Black Bee and it

has indeed got immersed into your Lotus feet !!.

So that is what is your duty regarding 18:66, Jee - Bhaiyya Jee ! Is

it difficult, Brother, Jee ?

This was sung by Swamiji. I will also sing next time another song

also sung by Swamiji only- on the same subject, Jee !

Namaste Jee.

Jee Jee

Shashikala

PRIOR POSTING

Hari Om

Mike. In BG 18:66 , " abandoning all duties " means , renouncing

the " shelter of all duties " , not the abandoning physically the

performance of the duties. You can even afford to leave the decision

making itself with reference to the duty, as to whether something is

your duty or not, also to Paramatma under this verse.

But under no circumstance, the duties should be renounced/abandoned

physically ! You can simply offer all karmas made by you to Him ,

under this verse.

If we take the stand that " duty " physically should be abandoned,

then neither the specific reference under 18:66 gets satisfactorily

explained, nor the prior references nor the post reaction of Arjuna

justifies that interpretation. Entire Chapter 3 of BG then will

prove to be futile. Arjuna, too, after hearing this, did not

relinquish his duty, viz fighting . He said in 18:73- " karishye

vachanam tav " - I shall do what you say. We also in 18:66 should keep

doing our duties but should not get entangled in deciding what is

our duty and we should not depend on the duty. We should offer our

karmas to Paramatma. You cant abandon karma even if you want to. It

is a law. You can, however, convert those karmas into " akarmas " (

non binding karmas) by either renouncing the " doership " ( Jnana

Yoga), or renouncing the results thereof ( Karma Yoga) or offering

them to Parasmatma (Bhakti Yoga). The karma should not bind you, it

should not result in repeated birth-that is all is needed. The

shelter of duty is does produce a binding for yout . You may also

fall then under BG 9:21. Hence under no circumstance, you should

renounce your duties. You should not depend upon them.

You should depend upon God instead.

As regards 18:48, please note it is related with Karma Yoga. Entire

Chapter 3 talks in unison regarding performing one's duty to the

best of one's ability. What is duty? Duty is – " WHAT YOU CAN DO AND

WHAT YOU SHOULD DO " . That is all the duty is. This is the best

definition of duty for sadhaks - coming straight from Swamiji. In

Jnana Yoga there is no such question arising, because there the

sadhak starts with a determination- I don't do anything. In Karma

Yoga only this question can arise. BG 18:48 is guiding principle for

a Karma Yogi. In Bhakti Yoga , particularly, in surrender such a

question does not again arise. You are no more there. You have

surrendered yourself to God. Now where is the question of any right,

duty, obligation, righteousness? When such question arises in your

life after surrender, Paramatma shall take care of you- MAA SUCHAH .

Only He is there and you are a toy in His hand. There is neither

doership, nor renouncership, nor consumption (enjoyment or

suffering) of results. In fact what has gone to the winds, is entire

concept of duty for a sadhak - MAA SUCHAH.

Mike after surrender, YOU HAVE ONLY ONE DUTY LEFT FOR YOU - MAA

SUCHAH – Don't worry. Simply throw all cautions, all dependences,

all cares, all worries, all fears, all apprehensions, all anxieties-

simply throw them away. You have no duty. All get transferred to

Paramatma. You remain- Worriless, griefless, fearless, doubtless-

just observing the Divine playing through you, your mind, your body,

your actions, and your surroundings - you should simply then enjoy

that bliss of Paramatma playing in you. Simple !

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

-------------------------------

NARAYAN NARAYAN

In English

Serving the world and God Realization (Love with God)

Ramchandra

in Hindi

SANSAAR KI SEVA OR BHAGWAT PRAPTI(BHAGWAN SE PREM)

(RAMCHANDRA)

--------------------------------

Jai Hanuman

Once you surrender yourself to God under 18:66, you can only do

duties - Jee ! What else you can do Jee !! Hence you can only give relying on

that duty.!!! Neither Arjuna gave up doing His duties after hearing Gita, nor we

should. Our aim/bhava then should not be to get into decision making. We have to

depend upon God not upon duty. That is all 18:66 means. After you have

surrendered yourself

to God - prohibited actions CANNOT be done by body/mind etc. NOT

POSSIBLE ! Only sometimes a dilemma may arise – should I do /Should I not do /

What should I do type! Leave that to Him-put aside all confusion regarding duty,

Jee ! Keep doing as per your " bhava " (inner sentiments / expression) without

bothering whether it was right or wrong. Along with you, your mind, intellect,

ego, body

all get surrendered ! Nothing then needs to be done/thought/relied

upon. Rely upon God and upon your " conscience " while taking decisions. Leave

everything else to Daddy. No worry. No thinking. Become " MAST " (blissful). Allow

God to operate through you. Where are you then? It is Daddy all along Jee !

DIL NE HAMSE JO KAHAA , HAMNE VAISA HI KIYA ! PHIR KABHI FURSAT SE

SOCHENGE BHALA THA YA BURA!!

Whatever heart ( conscience) told me, I did that. Only when I am

free , I shall think whether I did good or bad !!

Become free, Bhaiyya !

Namaste Jee

Jee Jee

Shashikala

--------------------------------

Ram Ram,

In Gita 18-48, Krishna says to those who are beginners, do your

regular routine work. In Gita 18-66 Krishna says, you take refuge in

me, you work only for me. Doing that (working for Him) if you do any

sin, I will take care of it. Nowhere He has denied for work, he

denies to work for the benefit of self. This is advance stage.

Please read all verses between 48th and 66th very carefully. Don't

get confused. the message is very clear.

Ashok Goenka

--------------------------------

Bhagwat Gita says about swabhaav (self nature) or state of

subconscious mind which one should not ignore. Any one is more at

ease and is efficient in its unique way of self-realization. For

example, a great artist in India Amitabh Bacchan decided to launch a

commecial enterprise and he failed in it miserably. His choice of

work ruined him. After he came back to art and acting in film, he

was again OK.

This means, every one has to follow his/her unique self-nature

during period of the journey of life. A seed of lemon cannot produce

tree of mango irrespective of the soil or water or fertilizer poured

in it. Each one of us are unique and born in complete from the day

1, and hence, it stands no competition or comparison to influence

it. This understanding nature of self is called DUTY.

For me, Krishna is humanities, for a artist, Krishna is a dancer,

for a warrior, Krishna is a warrior. So the teacher is one but

students have different subjects of study depending on their self-

development of mind. The duty or swabhaav thus changes and students

carry out the education of life within its limitation.

best regards

KG

(Krishna Gopal)

------------------------------

Hari Om

The duty in this life is to unite with God within and in the world.

In this unity one has to perform his duties as if not attached to it.

Love,

Chris Duindam

-------------------------------

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

Please also read the following somewhat related prior discussions:

TOPIC: Definition of Duty and Some Clarifications (Click Link below)

/message/587

TOPIC: Do we have choice of Action? - (Click link below)

/message/1298

TOPIC: What is Our Duty ? How to Decide ?

/message/1223

TOPIC: How to be detached: Duty and Knowledge?

/message/435

If someone has the time and would like to take the lead to summarize

the prior discussions that are pertinent to the current question,

and to share with group, it will be invaluable help to all.

Thank you !

Gita Talk Moderator

Ram Ram

--------------------------------

GUIDELINES FOR POSTING A RESPONSE:

1. The group is focused on the Holy Gitaji, therefore, only

responses which further clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will be

posted.

2. Making reference of Gitaji shloka is highly encouraged - at least

once in the response. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or

other scriptures to substantiate your response.

3. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting

sadhaka's time. Under no circustance the answer should be limited to

half a book page, at the most 3-4 paragraphs.

4. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the

extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas

5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only.

6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other

organizations (we do not have the bandwidth to review links to

determine if content is appropriate for distribution).

7. Complete reproduction of texts from any book is strongly

discouraged, however partial cut - paste is acceptable and

references may be made of the book or author(but not links to other

sites).

8. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone

number, address etc.

9. Please use appropriate judgement and only address the response to

a particular individual, where it makes sense to do so.

10. Due to the large readership, only those responses will be posted

which are in line with the general philosophy of taking Shrimad

Bhagavad Gita as the reference.

11. Moderator will reject any content that does not meet guidelines.

However, for expediency, moderator at his discretion, may modify /

delete portions of the posting for mispelling, wordiness that is

irrelevant to the overall core discussion, personal information,

opinions / feelings etc. that do not align with guidelines.

12. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth,

westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use of only

Sanskrit words, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit

bracketed wherever possible.

13. Any personal remarks over the knowledge of any sadhak or about

the stage at which any sadhak is standing in his quest / sadhna /

spiritual journey - must not be included in your posting. Also,

there should not be any sarcasm towards fellow sadhaks in this

spiritual learning and sharing.

MODERATOR

Ram Ram

September 16, 2008

-Shree Hari-

Dear Sadhaks, I am seeking clarification of the following verses in

Gitaji Chapt. 18. Juxtaposed.

48. One should not abandon, Arjuna, the duty to which one is born,

Though faulty; for, all undertakings are enveloped by evil, as fire

by smoke! (Gita 18:48)

66. Abandoning all duties, take refuge in me alone; I will free you

from all sins; so do not grieve. (Gita 18:66)

I seem to recall else where in B.G. That one should do ones duty.

With Respect and Divine Love,

Mike Keenor

NEW POSTING

-Shree Hari-

Looking further into the beginning of B.G. 18.66 ' sarva-dharman

parityajya...', I found three translations all different, but placing

them as it were upon each other in my mind, the penny dropped.

And yes I have read from B.G. 18: 48 to 66, I have done some

thinking, but most of all I bow in respect to all, and all your

words have been of assistance. I think it is clear to all that there

is divine work going on here.

Swamiji was very special was he not? Song and dance can touch the

soul, there are songs around that are reborn, to fit the times, some

are so ancient and sacred they can take ones breath away, I

understand what song can do Jee Jee Shashikalaji.

Vyasji I understand what you are writing about, as I am no stranger

to anguish of the soul, that comes from suffering at all levels. Also

your statement: 'Krishna ruthlessly demolished every argument of

Arjuna', is true, and Lord Krishna can, and does do such things still

to this day across all cultures, God has many names.

Most of all Sir, you answered a question I never asked but had been

puzzling me for some time.

You wrote, 'In fact we were in a " surrendered " mode the day we first

time prayed'. To me prayer can be without words, beyond words .

With Respect and Divine Love,

Mike

(Mike Keenor)

--------------------------------

Hari Om

Final thoughts on surrender.

After you surrender , you indeed start feeling presence of God more

eloquently than earlier- no doubt on that !.

Reason is that while the same body, mind, intellect , ego etc are

working, but " you " (Self) have changed position from a " doer " to

a " non doer " ! From a " seen " to a " seer " ! From a Principal to an

agent! From " Swamiji " to a " Das " and you have started

getting " Ram " naam " sukh " !

You indeed become then a " drishta " ( a seer, a witness-BG 13: 23).

Now " BEFORE YOU ONLY " - your beloved Divine's actions/

circumstances/ karmas/incidences/states will take place

(rather " by/through " you).

BEFORE YOU ONLY your sins will get destroyed (BG 18:73).

BEFORE YOU ONLY your " moha " . (nashto moha-18:73) will extinguish.

BEFORE YOU ONLY your faith and belief in your Beloved will

strengthen (BG 7:21).

BEFORE YOU ONLY equanimity shall enter you (BG 10:10).

BEFORE YOU ONLY viveka (conscience) will awaken (BG 2:53).

BEFORE YOU ONLY " knowledge " will dawn upon you (BG 10:11).

BEFORE YOU ONLY your mind shall change ( BG 10:9,9:34).

BEFORE YOU ONLY disconnection with inert will take place( BG 3:9).

BEFORE YOU ONLY " sat " (real) will prevail and. " asat " . (unreal) will

vanish (BG 2:16) !

BEFORE YOU ONLY " Divine Properties " shall manifest in you (BG

16:1/3) in abundance ! ! AUTOMATICALLY and EFFORTLESSLY !!

How then can you remain not " feeling " direct presence of Paramatma

around/inside you (BG 7:19) ? Why then He should not become easy for

you to get (BG 8:14) ? What prevents you then from not reaching to

the level stated in BG 6:30 ?

You can after " surrender " only experience as to how God meets

with His promises made by Him in BG 7:21/ 9:22/ 9:31/10:10/10:11/

12:7/13:32/ etc etc.

How can one then not " feel " Him operating clearly and directly

through himself !!

You will also " experience " as to how meticulously God " picks "

faults (sins) in you. How precisely He addresses/cures/destroys your

sins(BG 18:66) ! You will feel as if the situations etc arising

before you were really " tailor made " -for you only- Precise,

accurate and on the dot !! You will find very quickly as to how you

have really changed ! You will feel as to how you were time and

again saved from otherwise rather " impossible to survive

situations " ( na Me bhaktah pranasyati- 9:31 ). You will feel then

only as to how this world /people/given circumstances etc have

changed from an otherwise absolutely " dukhalayam " into an

unbelievable but so obvious and natural " Bhagvat Svaroopam " (BG

7:19) for you !

You will understand as to why you suffered in the past and how

needlessly ? And as to why Saints and Sages/Gita recommend you to

get detached from the inert !

As your ego/mind etc will quieten and as equanimity will start

arising in you - your bliss can only multiply !. Your devotion can

only be more intense - as if it was quite natural ! Your Love for

God can only increase geometrically - obvious and unquestionable !

Your Faith in Him can only strengthen- and become immovable

literally ! The sorrows can only eliminate- as if they never

existed ! Peace in you can only acquire permanence- as if it was

ever there - sahaj sukhrashi - naturally !

Darkness/ignorance/stupidity/ Maya - you will wonder as to how could

they exist in the past ?

Can the experience of " Vasudevah Sarvam " ( BG 7:19) then remain rare

for you ? Never !

This is the power of surrender ! That is why Saints and Sages call

this verse BG 18:66 to be the " essence " of Gita.

Vasudevah Sarvam !!

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas NB

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

Dear Sadhaka, thank you for a good question

Gitaji Verse 18-48

As it has been pointed out eloquently by Mr. Vyas, this verse

relates to Karma Yoga. Even though all actions are afflicted with

some defects, Gitaji declares that one must not abandon one's duty.

In Gitaji, Chap. 2, Verses 31-38 declare the importance of doing our

duty (Swa-dharma) as prescribed in our scriptures (Ref: Gita 16-24).

One incurs sin if he/she does not perform the ordained duty.

Swamiji Maharaj says in Gita Probhidini (page 533), while performing

one's prescribed duty, it is given that there are some inherent

defects but they DO NOT affect the doer of actions if these actions

are done with an attitude of Karma Yoga. In Karma Yoga, the actions

are performed with the sense of equanimity, neither for a desire for

expectation of a specific fruit nor for seeking pleasure (Bhoga

budhi).

The effect of inherent defects in performance of actions is much

more connected with the motivation behind the actions on doer's part

and not on actions themselves. Just like a doctor while treating a

patient, cuts his limb for the purpose of making him healthy, he

does not incur any sin. Also, Gitaji Verse 18-17, states:

" He whose is free from the notion of egoism and whose understanding

is free from attachment, though slaying all these people, he slays

not, nor is he bound. "

Gitaji Verse 18-66

This verse is in the context of Bhakti Yoga, specifically, complete

surrender (Sharnagatih). The verse is declaring not to abandon all

Dharmas (or Karmas) physically but not having any dependence on

these Dharmas (or Karmas). By adopting this attitude, the devotee

while performing all prescribed actions, he is free from bondage of

actions because he relinquishes the ownership of actions, good and

bad fruits do not affect him.

There is an assurance from the Lord that by solely depending on Him

the devotee does not have to worry about anything. In the process of

surrendering to God the devotee has changed his identity and

accepted a sole relationship with God, " I am God's only and no one

else's " .

(Arjuna says in Gitaji 18-73, " karisye vacanam tava " ).

Ram Ram

Humble regards,

Madan Kaura

-------------------------------

Dear Sadaks,

Bagavan said " Do your duty but with Samarpana Bavana to ME " . Bagavan

meant do not think of fruit of action. Actually with the Kripa of

Bagavan alone that everything happens. But we humans think that we

are doing. That thought gives us misery or happiness.

B.Sathyanarayan

Dear Sadhaks and Bhagavatas

This poser from Sri Mike Keenor illustrates how difficult it is to

understand the underlying philosophy of GITA without the guidance of

a proper and qualified Guru or Acharya. I recall that somewhere

along the line, some had even questioned the need for a Guru at all.

I would like to share my thoughts and understanding obtained from

illustrious Acharyas and by my reading of the holy scripture. These

are set out below in a most humble fashion.

The purpose of this life is to get redemption from this SAMSARA - a

cycle of birth, death and rebirth in an endless chain with no origin

and no end - brought about by our actions, inactions - our Karmas.

Vedas and other Scriptures deal with this aspect in an elaborate

manner in the BRAHAMA KANDAS. These are not easily understandable

for various reasons. Therefore our Lord expounded the substance of

these scriptures in the form of GITA for the benefit of humanity.

ARJUNA was only an excuse and a medium to impart this knowledge to

the whole of humanity.

Gita deals with three basic Yogas -Karma, Jnana & Bakthi and

emphasises that these three are not independent of one another but

neatly intertwined in such a way that practice of Karma Yoga will

lead one to Jnana Yoga and this finally to Bakthi yoga. It is a

gradual transition.

Karma Yoga if practised correctly as per Gita will eliminate from

our minds all attachments, me and you concepts, develop a sense of

equanimity and prepares the mind to understand the difference

between our Atma and body, the attributes of Atma that becomes the

centre of our meditation pondering over our relationship with

PARAMATMA and how we are actually so subordinate to HIM - Jnana

Yoga. This creates a longing to be with HIM and culminates in Bakthi.

It is only through Bakthi alone that one could reach the lotus feet

of our Lord (Moksha) from where there is no return to Samsara. No

getting back to the wombs. The Bakthi marga is long and strenuous

and might take many many births before the goal is attained.

It in this context that Sloka 66 of Ch 18 was born. when Arjuna

stood perplexed by the complexity of Yogs and the difficult nature

of practising them. The word used here is " Dharma " and this will

not translate into " duties " as is commonly understood. To my mind

and taking the whole context of Gita (we should not lose sight of

this), this means that instead of practising Karma or Jnana and

Bakthi yogas (that would take many, many innumerable births) Krishna

offered a simpler solution to reach HIM. It is " you surrender to me

body and soul as the ONLY REFUGE abandoning all other YOGA pursuits

to reach me " . I will redeem you from the Samsara and let there be no

doubt on this. This will happen at the end of this lifetime and

there will not be anymore involvement in samsara. That is a Divine

Promise from Krishna. This Marga is also known as PRAPATTHI marga.

THIS IS THE FOURTH YOGA THAT GITA GIVES US. Thus there are only two

ways to reach HIM -through Bakthi marga (involving unknown time

factor) or through PRAPATTHI marga also known as Saranagathi ( I am

incapable of redeeming myself and I lay this burden also on YOUR

shoulders and only your shoulders alone). Thus this Sloka 66 is the

quintessence of Gita.

The above does not mean that once you have surrendered, you can do

anything in life that is not permitted by sastras. We must remember

that Arjuna was gradually taken through this process of Karma, Jnana

and Bakthi yogas by Krishna Himself and finally Krishna delivered

this all important message when Arjuna's mind had become cleansed

and fine-tuned to receive this message. Therefore, if we have

reached this state of enlightenment to seek salvation through

Prapatthi, then our minds would never sway from the paths of virtue.

We would continue to do the duties until the end of life.

Now to Sloka 44 of Ch 18: Hopefully the above would have removed the

doubt regarding " duties " as used in this Sloka and the word Dharma

used in Sloka used in Sloka 66. What is stated in 66 is to abandon

all other methods to reach HIM and instead only resort to Prapatthi

alone. This would not imply that we are asked to abandon all our

duties. If a person has reached this level mental maturity already

to resort to Prapatthi marga, he would never abandon his daily

duties that are enjoined on him by scriptures. He would continue to

perform them in the unshakeable faith that he has done his bit to

attain salvation and it would be upto HIM to fulfil the promise. You

are only a tool in the process. What he abandons is the fruits of

his action and not the action itself-karma yogi (the first step in

his pursuit).

Hence in my mind the two slokas 44 and 66 are not opposed to one

another.

I have merely shared my understanding and Sadaks would pardon me if

I have stated anything incorrectly.

Radhe Shyam

Humble pranams

G Rangarajan

Dear Sadak,

I reply to mails but Mediators rejects it. I reply as Bagvan speaks

through me. But the same Bagavan as Mediator rejects and never asks

clarification of my mail.So it does not bother me.

B.Sathyanarayan

-------------------------------

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

We are really sorry, Sathyanarayanji and many others. Mails not

processed within 14 days are automatically rejected. To limit the

number of emails we sent you, we often wait till there are number of

responses. Your mails were not rejected due to content, but mostly

they were isolated responses, which never got processes. Once again

our sincere apologies to all who recently received " Rejected " mail

notice. We will try to do a better job in the future.

From Gita Talk Moderator

Ram Ram

--------------------------------

Jai Shree Krishna

I think God is taking exam of tolerance. If one is true

and honest he will surely not leave his path of honesty because he

knows God is with him and he has to be strong in such situations and

keep on hardworking. As said by Lord Krishna " karma karo fruit ka

desire mat rakho " . I thing spirituality fruit ripes to its best only

in negative situations because in these situations alone a person

needs to follow Gitaji's updesh. In good situations everyone feels

that yes God has given us everything. But there are very few who

feel that god has given me this situation for my good to see that

how much my spiritual level has risen to face even in this opposing

situation. Do you remember Lord Krishna's aunt KuntiMa too asked for

sorrow filled circumstances from Lord because in those circumstance

a spiritual minded person feels more attachment with the Lord than

in the happy days where he has no time

for lord except saying thankyou.

ram ram

raksh_mehra