Guest guest Posted September 19, 2008 Report Share Posted September 19, 2008 I have a question, in regard to various suggestions that are continually made in this forum. I hear repeatedly a theme in regard to the goal of meditation, upasanas, etc, being " nothing " . Also postings telling persons that once they go beyond ego, they become completely mindless, egoless, totally insignificant. It is my understanding that the soul has an existence.....an existence means, " I am not nothing " . I may be insignificant, but by the mere fact that I am saying " I " , that indicates that I, or we, have significance. However small any of our influence or existence may be, we ARE. I challenge those who truly believe that we are nothing. Mahalakshmi dasi Mahalakshmiji, it will be helpful if you also included the actual statements that sadhaks made around nothingness, insignificant etc. along with name of sadhak, so one can look at the context in which these points were discussed. From Gita Talk Moderator Ram Ram - GUIDELINES FOR POSTING A RESPONSE: 1. The group is focused on the Holy Gitaji, therefore, only responses which further clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will be posted. 2. Making reference of Gitaji shloka is highly encouraged - at least once in the response. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to substantiate your response. 3. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting sadhaka's time. Under no circustance the answer should be limited to half a book page, at the most 3-4 paragraphs. 4. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only. 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other organizations (we do not have the bandwidth to review links to determine if content is appropriate for distribution). 7. Complete reproduction of texts from any book is strongly discouraged, however partial cut - paste is acceptable and references may be made of the book or author(but not links to other sites). 8. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone number, address etc. 9. Please use appropriate judgement and only address the response to a particular individual, where it makes sense to do so. 10. Due to the large readership, only those responses will be posted which are in line with the general philosophy of taking Shrimad Bhagavad Gita as the reference. 11. Moderator will reject any content that does not meet guidelines. However, for expediency, moderator at his discretion, may modify / delete portions of the posting for mispelling, wordiness that is irrelevant to the overall core discussion, personal information, opinions / feelings etc. that do not align with guidelines. 12. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use of only Sanskrit words, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit bracketed wherever possible. 13. Any personal remarks over the knowledge of any sadhak or about the stage at which any sadhak is standing in his quest / sadhna / spiritual journey - must not be included in your posting. Also, there should not be any sarcasm towards fellow sadhaks in this spiritual learning and sharing. MODERATOR Ram Ram Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 19, 2008 Report Share Posted September 19, 2008 I have a question, in regard to various suggestions that are continually made in this forum. I hear repeatedly a theme in regard to the goal of meditation, upasanas, etc, being " nothing " . Also postings telling persons that once they go beyond ego, they become completely mindless, egoless, totally insignificant. It is my understanding that the soul has an existence.....an existence means, " I am not nothing " . I may be insignificant, but by the mere fact that I am saying " I " , that indicates that I, or we, have significance. However small any of our influence or existence may be, we ARE. I challenge those who truly believe that we are nothing. if you truly believe that YOU ARE NOTHING, then how can you have any truth to convey? NOTHINGNESS indicates you have no knowledge, no sense of truth or untruth, no existence. So, why are you trying to give this to others? Respectfully, Mahalakshmi dasi Mahalakshmiji, it will be helpful if you also included the actual statements that sadhaks made around nothingness, insignificant etc. along with name of sadhak, so one can look at the context in which these points were discussed. From Gita Talk Moderator Ram Ram - NEW POSTING Dear Maha Dasi, I am watching you to learn the great qualities in your name as well as your outlook ... You are already there ... that is why you could call yourself as a Dasi (a Maha Dasi for me to practice) ... The Nothing is the state of Bhakti as such ... I know I use this term a lot in my responses ... Your doubt is an excellent since that wields the power of annihilating all other doubts categorically. I will make an attempt to address it in a series of limitted appreciations that I could make on The Avadhuta Gita ... Respects. Naga Narayana -------------------------------- Jai Hanuman Mahalakshmi Mata Jee ! You have ended your question by a challenge ! Unnecessarily !! Hence I must challenge you Jee - necessarily- Jee !!! I challenge you Mahalakshmi Mata Jee to find out(please search, search and search !!! Jee Jee !) and present before sadhaks a single statement made by any sadhak at any point of time where he/she has stated that " soul has no existence " . Sadhaks are not mad and insane people who can write so - none has written so in my view, then what to talk of Sadhaks of this esteemed Gita Talk Group Jee ?? Tamma Bhaiyya (My Dear Brother Naga Narayanaji) once or twice referred regarding " Nothingness " but never with reference to soul/self/Paramatma. Tamma Bhaiyya was 100 percent right there. How can a learned man like Tamma Bhaiyya say " soul/self does not exist? " . From his writings his deep knowledge of Upanishads is abundantly clear Jee! By the way, Jee ! All others except individual soul-self/God are " nothing " Jee!! Jee, My second challenge to you, Mahalakshmi Jee, is to prove that everything except Self/Paramatma is not " nothing " . I say for the first time it is " nothing " . Now I say, Jee, that all balance (except individual soul and God ) including mind, ego, intellect, body, world (inert) is nothing-nothing-nothing Jee. I dare you to prove me wrong. I challenge you on that. Come On ! I wait for your reply. " NASATO VIDYATE BHAVO, NABHAVO VIDYATE SATAH " (Gita 2:16) " The Unreal has no existence and the real never ceases to be; the truth of both these, has been perceived by seers of truth. " (Gita 2:16) Come On ! Let us here from you Jee !! Namaste Jee Jee Jee Shashikala - dear fellow sadhaks namaskaram ., even i was having questions on nothingness , and in due course the answer i got for myself is , our existence is not small , even in nothingness it cannot be expressed as small , EVEN WHEN WE ARE NOTHINGNESS , THAT NOTHINGNESS EXISTS , AND SO EXISTENCE IS ETERNAL AND SO WE ARE ETERNAL INDEED . PRANAMS TO GURUJI. ( kindly forgive if anything is wrong in my quote ) " aravanan karan " Let us put it this way. What shall be nothingness? Let us call it as something akin to the state, devoid of everything. No thing, every thing. I would suggest a perspecrive, which shall say that devoid of all emperical aspects, contents. This could further mean that, devoid of all involvement, or attachement to and of, mundane world, emperical world. In other words, it is a state of complete detachment, and even when one goes on living mundane life, it shall be a life without atttachment, living unattached, as in the case of the 'Jivan Mukta'. Precisely this shall be the concept of a " nishkama karma " . With this, one goes into the state of " Tyena Tyaktena Punjita " also. Adi Sankara also speaks in the same line. Jagat is mithya, illusory, which is so because of changing matter. Buddha says the same too, 'Kshanika Vada'. Now the very property of soul is 'Pure Consciousness' and the idea of pure consciousness is minus and mundane contents. it is a consciousness minus any emperical content. perhaps this could be the state of nothing. Visharad Sharma (deleted some paragraphs, to stay aligned with current discussion - from Gita Talk moderator) -------------------------------- I totally agree with Mahalaxmi Dasi. Every soul is significant. If any one hurts that significane, in the future, he himself have to suffer. This is called ATTITUDE of life - it ought to be POSITIVE. Brahma Mehrotra Let us please stick to Mahalaksmi Dasi ji's Hinduism as below. Nothingness is a Buddhist concept not Hindu, nor it is the illusion philosophy of Adi Shankra, surely. This email thread is about Gita Talk and there is nothing in the Gita about nothingness, rather it is about everything - everything that is glorious and great - but only with a condition for Karma that it is done for God so that the Grace of God would absorb it and make it nothing. This is the HINDU concept and from the beginning of creation per the Hindu scripture we have the same concept, for instance, Lord Shiva absorbed the poison from the ocean churning and so on to save mankind ---- anil bhanot GUIDELINES FOR POSTING A RESPONSE: 1. The group is focused on the Holy Gitaji, therefore, only responses which further clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will be posted. 2. Making reference of Gitaji shloka is highly encouraged - at least once in the response. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to substantiate your response. 3. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting sadhaka's time. Under no circustance the answer should be limited to half a book page, at the most 3-4 paragraphs. 4. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only. 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other organizations (we do not have the bandwidth to review links to determine if content is appropriate for distribution). 7. Complete reproduction of texts from any book is strongly discouraged, however partial cut - paste is acceptable and references may be made of the book or author(but not links to other sites). 8. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone number, address etc. 9. Please use appropriate judgement and only address the response to a particular individual, where it makes sense to do so. 10. Due to the large readership, only those responses will be posted which are in line with the general philosophy of taking Shrimad Bhagavad Gita as the reference. 11. Moderator will reject any content that does not meet guidelines. However, for expediency, moderator at his discretion, may modify / delete portions of the posting for mispelling, wordiness that is irrelevant to the overall core discussion, personal information, opinions / feelings etc. that do not align with guidelines. 12. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use of only Sanskrit words, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit bracketed wherever possible. 13. Any personal remarks over the knowledge of any sadhak or about the stage at which any sadhak is standing in his quest / sadhna / spiritual journey - must not be included in your posting. Also, there should not be any sarcasm towards fellow sadhaks in this spiritual learning and sharing. MODERATOR Ram Ram Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 19, 2008 Report Share Posted September 19, 2008 ATTENTION: ALL SADHAK AND GITA TALK GROUP EMAILS ARE MODERATED AND POSTED ONLY FROM EMAIL ID: Sadhak_insight. Any emails received from other email ids or individuals are strictly not coming from the moderated site. Please therefore do not inadvertently UNSUBSCRIBE to Gita-talk, if you have received inappropriate discussions threads from other sources. Thank you! From Gita Talk Moderator Ram Ram I have a question, in regards to various suggestions that are continually made in this forum. I hear repeatedly a theme in regard to the goal of meditation, upasanas, etc, being " nothing " . Also postings telling persons that once they go beyond ego, they become completely mindless, egoless, totally insignificant. It is my understanding that the soul has an existence.....an existence means, " I am not nothing " . I may be insignificant, but by the mere fact that I am saying " I " , that indicates that I, or we, have significance. However small any of our influence or existence may be, we ARE. I challenge those who truly believe that we are nothing. if you truly believe that YOU ARE NOTHING, then how can you have any truth to convey? NOTHINGNESS indicates you have no knowledge, no sense of truth or untruth, no existence. So, why are you trying to give this to others? Respectfully, Mahalakshmi dasi - NEW POSTING The 'Challenge' is the best question " Pariprasna " . The Answer is - This philosophical precept of 'Nothing' is 'Everything' , beyond the Purusha. The Kathopanishad answers the challenge Beyond the senses are the objects beyond the objects is the mind beyond the mind is the intellect beyond the intellect the great Atman beyond the Atman the unmanifest beyond the unmanifest - the Purusha beyond the Purusha - there is Nothing this is the end, the Supreme goal ---- thus Nothing is Everything, even beyond Purusha. Our Krishna said 'Jagadavyaktamurtina' I am unmanifest Divinity. 'Naaham Prakasaha' I am not manifest. He is beyond Purusha - NOTHING Dr. Anjaneyulu Goli ---------------------------- Dear Mahalakshmi Dasiji, When ever we use the word ' I ' mostly we mean the body or the mind or the intellect. This is because we accept ourselves as one of these. In other words, we identify ourselves as one of these. Rarely do we mean 'Atma' being the ' I '. In that sense, one may say that as distinct from soul ' I ' exists. Having realised God, there is no ' I ' as earlier percieved (Body, Mind or Intellect). Now, the identity of this ' I ' in case of a 'Gyani' merges with the soul. It is like a drop of water is different from the ocean only so far as it has not merged with it. Having fallen in and merging with the ocean, there is no more separate identity of the drop of water. As distict from this, in 'Bhakti', the Bhakta wants to retain his separate identity not as this body, mind or intellect but as 'Sevak' of his God. His identity then changes from his wordly identity to his 'Adhyatmic' identity. I wonder if I have been able to clarify your thoughts. My request to fellow Sadhaks is that instead of answering a question by asking another question or challenging the questioner, it would be better if we think from the point of view of the questioner and appreciate her point of view before we embark upon obsessively answering the question. We will never be able to do justice to the question unless we try to put ourselves into the shoe of the questioner and think from his point of view as to why he may have asked the question. A.H.Dalmia ---------------------------- For directly viewing and realizing this sort of " Nothingness " under discussion, one has to look towards the clear sky with absolutely a vacant look, though at the same time trying to very deeply perceive what is happening there,within minutes it will be seen that there are streams of infinitisimal bubbles which appear from nowhere and disappear to nowhere moving with tremendous speed. What are these bubbles? wherefrom these originate and where do they go? Perhaps they do not at all originate and also do not at all disintegrate. This close and continuous observation may lead to further realization which we go on hunting in our mind for birth after birth to remind at the end " amon manab jonom roilo potit, abad korle folto shona " (such a human birth has been wasted, had it been properly nourished gold could have been ripped). Barin Chatterjee ------------------------------ Dear Sadaks, The conscience level of Ego, desire, Anger etc completely vanishes for a person who meditated/introgated and found that everything around is temporary and that which is Sat- Chit- Anandam is permanent.That person remains silent (even does not meditate) and wittnesses everything around with smile on his face. He has very clearly understood he is not the body but Athuman and NOTHING important to him, even his death. Examples: 1)Jada Bharatha was to beheaded as human sacrifice. Bagavath says-He face became like just bloomed lotus. For him NOTHING matters. 2)Tukaram had vision of Sri Vishnu inviting him to Vaikunt. He had 2 small kids and wife. NOTHING was important to him than Bagavan call. There was no feeling about his family as he knew that his family belongs to Jaganath` s and not his. Total surrender. As long as he was with his family he never failed in his Karma. But when call came from Divineess NOTHING was important to him. 3)Ramana Rishi in Thiruvanaamalai left home at age of 12 reached Arunachalleswarar Temple. NOTHING was important to him other than self realization. 4) Valmiki left his family and sat in meditation. NOTHING was important to him than Rama NAAM. 5) Puranderdoss was a king of himself with 9 Crore wealth at that time and was called Nava Koti Narayanan. A vision of Sri Vishnu made him to leave everything behind and go as Bikshu. NOTHING was important to him, as he knew very well that everything around has to left one day on Anthim Yatra. Why wait till that day, do it today, use the body equipment for realization. He did not know whether he will get next meal. But NOTHING around was important to him. 6) In Neveli near chennai, there lived a person by name Vallalar very recently during British rule. He disappeared in presence of so many Govt official. NOTHING was important to him. 7) Eknath Maharaj used to say that to day is the day for Nama Sankeethan, tomorrow is not in my hands. So there was glory in his face that everyone saw. For him NOTHING was interesting around him. Sadaks might be knowing about a muslim who spitted on Ekanath several time same day but Ekanath did not unter a word, but said it is Bagavan Leela. NOTHING disturbed him or NOTHING was there for him to get angry. There is Paramathuma- Easwar (Shiva)- Brama Lok- Ganderva Lok etc 14 worlds, beyond is Sri Chakra (Refer Sounderiya Lehari) and Vaikunt For an ant the knowledge is limited only to area it lives. So also for ignorant persons. For the realized one knowledge is limitless, he can converse in any language, he sees Bhraman in everything, he undergoes any torcher silently with smile as he knows NOTHING can trouble him. E.g. Prahalad B.Sathyanarayan -------------------------------- PRIOR POSTING Dear Maha Dasi, I am watching you to learn the great qualities in your name as well as your outlook ... You are already there ... that is why you could call yourself as a Dasi (a Maha Dasi for me to practice) ... The Nothing is the state of Bhakti as such ... I know I use this term a lot in my responses ... Your doubt is an excellent since that wields the power of annihilating all other doubts categorically. I will make an attempt to address it in a series of limitted appreciations that I could make on The Avadhuta Gita ... Respects. Naga Narayana -------------------------------- Jai Hanuman Mahalakshmi Mata Jee ! You have ended your question by a challenge ! Unnecessarily !! Hence I must challenge you Jee - necessarily- Jee !!! I challenge you Mahalakshmi Mata Jee to find out(please search, search and search !!! Jee Jee !) and present before sadhaks a single statement made by any sadhak at any point of time where he/she has stated that " soul has no existence " . Sadhaks are not mad and insane people who can write so - none has written so in my view, then what to talk of Sadhaks of this esteemed Gita Talk Group Jee ?? Tamma Bhaiyya (My Dear Brother Naga Narayanaji) once or twice referred regarding " Nothingness " but never with reference to soul/self/Paramatma. Tamma Bhaiyya was 100 percent right there. How can a learned man like Tamma Bhaiyya say " soul/self does not exist? " . From his writings his deep knowledge of Upanishads is abundantly clear Jee! By the way, Jee ! All others except individual soul-self/God are " nothing " Jee!! Jee, My second challenge to you, Mahalakshmi Jee, is to prove that everything except Self/Paramatma is not " nothing " . I say for the first time it is " nothing " . Now I say, Jee, that all balance (except individual soul and God ) including mind, ego, intellect, body, world (inert) is nothing-nothing-nothing Jee. I dare you to prove me wrong. I challenge you on that. Come On ! I wait for your reply. " NASATO VIDYATE BHAVO, NABHAVO VIDYATE SATAH " (Gita 2:16) " The Unreal has no existence and the real never ceases to be; the truth of both these, has been perceived by seers of truth. " (Gita 2:16) Come On ! Let us here from you Jee !! Namaste Jee Jee Jee Shashikala - dear fellow sadhaks namaskaram ., even i was having questions on nothingness , and in due course the answer i got for myself is , our existence is not small , even in nothingness it cannot be expressed as small , EVEN WHEN WE ARE NOTHINGNESS , THAT NOTHINGNESS EXISTS , AND SO EXISTENCE IS ETERNAL AND SO WE ARE ETERNAL INDEED . PRANAMS TO GURUJI. ( kindly forgive if anything is wrong in my quote ) " aravanan karan " Let us put it this way. What shall be nothingness? Let us call it as something akin to the state, devoid of everything. No thing, every thing. I would suggest a perspecrive, which shall say that devoid of all emperical aspects, contents. This could further mean that, devoid of all involvement, or attachement to and of, mundane world, emperical world. In other words, it is a state of complete detachment, and even when one goes on living mundane life, it shall be a life without atttachment, living unattached, as in the case of the 'Jivan Mukta'. Precisely this shall be the concept of a " nishkama karma " . With this, one goes into the state of " Tyena Tyaktena Punjita " also. Adi Sankara also speaks in the same line. Jagat is mithya, illusory, which is so because of changing matter. Buddha says the same too, 'Kshanika Vada'. Now the very property of soul is 'Pure Consciousness' and the idea of pure consciousness is minus and mundane contents. it is a consciousness minus any emperical content. perhaps this could be the state of nothing. Visharad Sharma (deleted some paragraphs, to stay aligned with current discussion - from Gita Talk moderator) -------------------------------- I totally agree with Mahalaxmi Dasi. Every soul is significant. If any one hurts that significane, in the future, he himself have to suffer. This is called ATTITUDE of life - it ought to be POSITIVE. Brahma Mehrotra Let us please stick to Mahalaksmi Dasi ji's Hinduism as below. Nothingness is a Buddhist concept not Hindu, nor it is the illusion philosophy of Adi Shankra, surely. This email thread is about Gita Talk and there is nothing in the Gita about nothingness, rather it is about everything - everything that is glorious and great - but only with a condition for Karma that it is done for God so that the Grace of God would absorb it and make it nothing. This is the HINDU concept and from the beginning of creation per the Hindu scripture we have the same concept, for instance, Lord Shiva absorbed the poison from the ocean churning and so on to save mankind ---- anil bhanot GUIDELINES FOR POSTING A RESPONSE: 1. The group is focused on the Holy Gitaji, therefore, only responses which further clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will be posted. 2. Making reference of Gitaji shloka is highly encouraged - at least once in the response. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to substantiate your response. 3. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting sadhaka's time. Under no circustance the answer should be limited to half a book page, at the most 3-4 paragraphs. 4. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only. 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other organizations (we do not have the bandwidth to review links to determine if content is appropriate for distribution). 7. Complete reproduction of texts from any book is strongly discouraged, however partial cut - paste is acceptable and references may be made of the book or author(but not links to other sites). 8. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone number, address etc. 9. Please use appropriate judgement and only address the response to a particular individual, where it makes sense to do so. 10. Due to the large readership, only those responses will be posted which are in line with the general philosophy of taking Shrimad Bhagavad Gita as the reference. 11. Moderator will reject any content that does not meet guidelines. However, for expediency, moderator at his discretion, may modify / delete portions of the posting for mispelling, wordiness that is irrelevant to the overall core discussion, personal information, opinions / feelings etc. that do not align with guidelines. 12. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use of only Sanskrit words, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit bracketed wherever possible. 13. Any personal remarks over the knowledge of any sadhak or about the stage at which any sadhak is standing in his quest / sadhna / spiritual journey - must not be included in your posting. Also, there should not be any sarcasm towards fellow sadhaks in this spiritual learning and sharing. MODERATOR Ram Ram Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 21, 2008 Report Share Posted September 21, 2008 ATTENTION: ALL SADHAK AND GITA TALK GROUP EMAILS ARE MODERATED AND POSTED ONLY FROM EMAIL ID: Sadhak_insight. Any emails received from other email ids or individuals are strictly not coming from the moderated site. Please therefore do not inadvertently UNSUBSCRIBE to Gita-talk, if you have received inappropriate discussions threads from other sources. Thank you! From Gita Talk Moderator Ram Ram I have a question, in regards to various suggestions that are continually made in this forum. I hear repeatedly a theme in regard to the goal of meditation, upasanas, etc, being " nothing " . Also postings telling persons that once they go beyond ego, they become completely mindless, egoless, totally insignificant. It is my understanding that the soul has an existence.....an existence means, " I am not nothing " . I may be insignificant, but by the mere fact that I am saying " I " , that indicates that I, or we, have significance. However small any of our influence or existence may be, we ARE. I challenge those who truly believe that we are nothing. if you truly believe that YOU ARE NOTHING, then how can you have any truth to convey? NOTHINGNESS indicates you have no knowledge, no sense of truth or untruth, no existence. So, why are you trying to give this to others? Respectfully, Mahalakshmi dasi - NEW POSTING Narayan Narayan Mateshwari jee IN ENGLISH That which changes, is unreal (non-existent, perishable, moving towards destruction) and That which does not change, is real (existent,imperishable)(Gita 2:16) IN HINDI Jho bhadalta hai uski saata naahi hoti or Jho naahi bhadalta usi ki saata hoti hai(Gita 2:16) (ramchandra) - Dear Sadhaks, I was comtemplating on Vivekachudami of Adi Sankara`s. My friend not intereseted in spiritual matters asked me, " What are you contemplating as you could not recognise my presence " . I said, " NOTHING " . Does it mean real. I was contemplating on SOMETHING. Going beyond conscience level (without Pragniya) is Samadhi state, that which like Sadashiva Bramendral/yogi Raj could do. But these saints came back to normal state after many days. How? They were with Paramatma but though their functioning they were beyond senses. During Maha Pralaya (final destruction) it says everything gets destroyed with souls abiding in Paramatma. Again when creation commences these souls take forms. This is said in Upanishads. So there is NO stage called " Nothing " exists. But the word " nothing " is misunderstood. Nothing more to discuss rather than keep saying " Om Namo Narayana " . B.Sathyanarayan My dandavats to all in this forum, In response to Dr. Anjaneyuyu Goli, I would like to respond from a point of view of one who has certainly studied the Vedas, but not with the ability to translate, or even to know the various different meanings which can be attributed to any given word, which causes the scenario of, depending on who is translating,, a totally different meaning being gleaned depending on the mood/interpretation of the translator. So, my response to you, Dr, is, if you truly believe that nothingness is the ultimate, why do you put the title " Dr " in front of your name? Why not go by Anjaneyuyu Nothing? Indeed, with no disrespect intended, I ask you honestly, isn't it a bit of hypocrisy to use a title which sets you just a niche or two above others, while presenting that nothingness, which has no social distinctions, is your belief system? Truly, it may appeal to some (I am not saying anyone in particular, it is a question more than an accusation) that they can hide behind a convenient philosophy of nothingness, which allows no sense of impending guilt if one behaves in a misdirected or selfish, or just plain sinful fashion. But if an individual truly is in touch with Supersoul, I believe that he or she will not accept a translation of the holy scriptures which guides one to nothingness. Because no one can live this path in this life. No one can sit down on the sidewalk, stop eating, drinking, interacting, striving for recognition amongst one's fellow human beings, etc. So, when I hear presentations which are concluding with this idea, my only thought is that it is not an honest path. Those who choose it do not live it. It is virtually impossible in the west, even to remain seated as an Avadhut, such as Rsabhadeva did in the Bhagavatam.....(He lay on the ground, like a python, and if food entered his mouth, He ate....if nothing came to Him, He fasted.....but He also was able to make His stool smell like roses, because He is the Supreme Personality of Godhead incarnated). Anyway, if someone were on such a detached level in this country, he would be subject to being thrown in jail. A truly realized person would not allow himself to be the object of such offensive actions, knowing the offenders would suffer horrible reactions. He would not put himself in such a position.....but in India, certainly one could live in the streets, waiting for whatever mercy of the Lord came to him, and be left alone. Personally, I do not accept that even this conduct, of the avadhut's, is a state of " nothingness " . I have understood from my teachers, and my studying of the Vedas, that those whose activities in this world are minimal, but are either absorbed in chanting the Lord's names, or in trance, are still absorbed within in a realm of total activity, a state of samadhi where the soul has left this encagement and is interacting in a transcendental world, beyond time and space. In this transcendental world, described in the Brahma Samhita, there is no time.Not even the passing of one moment; it remains in the eternal, undivided present. Brahma Samhita gives detailed description of this transcendental world, which is full of Surabhi cows, which fulfill all desires, where unlimited wish-fulfilling trees fulfill any aspiration of the devotee (who's only desires are to continue engaging in loving devotional exchanges with the Lord and other sadhaks) where light is full of knowledge and bliss, and where the supreme spiritual substance which comprises all things is relishable (cintamani). This is a world which is not " nothing " . It may sound like a " fairy tale " to some, but I truly believe that fairies are real. If you or others don't believe in fairies, or in Goloka Vrndavana, which is presented in the Brahma Samhita, then you may have to keep trying to believe in nothing. Personally, I feel that " nothingness " philosophy is a trap, and I pray that any sadhaks reading this kindly bless me that I may have the strength to always resist the temptation of " nothingness " . I feel it is an excuse for giving up loving devotional activites, such as sravanam, kirtanam, visnoh smaranam (hearing, chanting, and remembering the Lord). My respects to all, Mahalaksmi Dasi Respected Dr. Anjaneyulu Goli Jay Shri Krushn Pl. refer to foll. text in your reply. Can you pl. help me to know the source of the same. Our Krishna said 'Jagadavyaktamurtina' I am unmanifest Divinity. 'Naaham Prakasaha' I am not manifest. He is beyond Purusha - NOTHING Jay Shri Krushn Vimal PRIOR POSTING The 'Challenge' is the best question " Pariprasna " . The Answer is - This philosophical precept of 'Nothing' is 'Everything' , beyond the Purusha. The Kathopanishad answers the challenge Beyond the senses are the objects beyond the objects is the mind beyond the mind is the intellect beyond the intellect the great Atman beyond the Atman the unmanifest beyond the unmanifest - the Purusha beyond the Purusha - there is Nothing this is the end, the Supreme goal ---- thus Nothing is Everything, even beyond Purusha. Our Krishna said 'Jagadavyaktamurtina' I am unmanifest Divinity. 'Naaham Prakasaha' I am not manifest. He is beyond Purusha - NOTHING Dr. Anjaneyulu Goli ---------------------------- Dear Mahalakshmi Dasiji, When ever we use the word ' I ' mostly we mean the body or the mind or the intellect. This is because we accept ourselves as one of these. In other words, we identify ourselves as one of these. Rarely do we mean 'Atma' being the ' I '. In that sense, one may say that as distinct from soul ' I ' exists. Having realised God, there is no ' I ' as earlier percieved (Body, Mind or Intellect). Now, the identity of this ' I ' in case of a 'Gyani' merges with the soul. It is like a drop of water is different from the ocean only so far as it has not merged with it. Having fallen in and merging with the ocean, there is no more separate identity of the drop of water. As distict from this, in 'Bhakti', the Bhakta wants to retain his separate identity not as this body, mind or intellect but as 'Sevak' of his God. His identity then changes from his wordly identity to his 'Adhyatmic' identity. I wonder if I have been able to clarify your thoughts. My request to fellow Sadhaks is that instead of answering a question by asking another question or challenging the questioner, it would be better if we think from the point of view of the questioner and appreciate her point of view before we embark upon obsessively answering the question. We will never be able to do justice to the question unless we try to put ourselves into the shoe of the questioner and think from his point of view as to why he may have asked the question. A.H.Dalmia ---------------------------- For directly viewing and realizing this sort of " Nothingness " under discussion, one has to look towards the clear sky with absolutely a vacant look, though at the same time trying to very deeply perceive what is happening there,within minutes it will be seen that there are streams of infinitisimal bubbles which appear from nowhere and disappear to nowhere moving with tremendous speed. What are these bubbles? wherefrom these originate and where do they go? Perhaps they do not at all originate and also do not at all disintegrate. This close and continuous observation may lead to further realization which we go on hunting in our mind for birth after birth to remind at the end " amon manab jonom roilo potit, abad korle folto shona " (such a human birth has been wasted, had it been properly nourished gold could have been ripped). Barin Chatterjee ------------------------------ Dear Sadaks, The conscience level of Ego, desire, Anger etc completely vanishes for a person who meditated/introgated and found that everything around is temporary and that which is Sat- Chit- Anandam is permanent.That person remains silent (even does not meditate) and wittnesses everything around with smile on his face. He has very clearly understood he is not the body but Athuman and NOTHING important to him, even his death. Examples: 1)Jada Bharatha was to beheaded as human sacrifice. Bagavath says-He face became like just bloomed lotus. For him NOTHING matters. 2)Tukaram had vision of Sri Vishnu inviting him to Vaikunt. He had 2 small kids and wife. NOTHING was important to him than Bagavan call. There was no feeling about his family as he knew that his family belongs to Jaganath` s and not his. Total surrender. As long as he was with his family he never failed in his Karma. But when call came from Divineess NOTHING was important to him. 3)Ramana Rishi in Thiruvanaamalai left home at age of 12 reached Arunachalleswarar Temple. NOTHING was important to him other than self realization. 4) Valmiki left his family and sat in meditation. NOTHING was important to him than Rama NAAM. 5) Puranderdoss was a king of himself with 9 Crore wealth at that time and was called Nava Koti Narayanan. A vision of Sri Vishnu made him to leave everything behind and go as Bikshu. NOTHING was important to him, as he knew very well that everything around has to left one day on Anthim Yatra. Why wait till that day, do it today, use the body equipment for realization. He did not know whether he will get next meal. But NOTHING around was important to him. 6) In Neveli near chennai, there lived a person by name Vallalar very recently during British rule. He disappeared in presence of so many Govt official. NOTHING was important to him. 7) Eknath Maharaj used to say that to day is the day for Nama Sankeethan, tomorrow is not in my hands. So there was glory in his face that everyone saw. For him NOTHING was interesting around him. Sadaks might be knowing about a muslim who spitted on Ekanath several time same day but Ekanath did not unter a word, but said it is Bagavan Leela. NOTHING disturbed him or NOTHING was there for him to get angry. There is Paramathuma- Easwar (Shiva)- Brama Lok- Ganderva Lok etc 14 worlds, beyond is Sri Chakra (Refer Sounderiya Lehari) and Vaikunt For an ant the knowledge is limited only to area it lives. So also for ignorant persons. For the realized one knowledge is limitless, he can converse in any language, he sees Bhraman in everything, he undergoes any torcher silently with smile as he knows NOTHING can trouble him. E.g. Prahalad B.Sathyanarayan -------------------------------- PRIOR POSTING Dear Maha Dasi, I am watching you to learn the great qualities in your name as well as your outlook ... You are already there ... that is why you could call yourself as a Dasi (a Maha Dasi for me to practice) ... The Nothing is the state of Bhakti as such ... I know I use this term a lot in my responses ... Your doubt is an excellent since that wields the power of annihilating all other doubts categorically. I will make an attempt to address it in a series of limitted appreciations that I could make on The Avadhuta Gita ... Respects. Naga Narayana -------------------------------- Jai Hanuman Mahalakshmi Mata Jee ! You have ended your question by a challenge ! Unnecessarily !! Hence I must challenge you Jee - necessarily- Jee !!! I challenge you Mahalakshmi Mata Jee to find out(please search, search and search !!! Jee Jee !) and present before sadhaks a single statement made by any sadhak at any point of time where he/she has stated that " soul has no existence " . Sadhaks are not mad and insane people who can write so - none has written so in my view, then what to talk of Sadhaks of this esteemed Gita Talk Group Jee ?? Tamma Bhaiyya (My Dear Brother Naga Narayanaji) once or twice referred regarding " Nothingness " but never with reference to soul/self/Paramatma. Tamma Bhaiyya was 100 percent right there. How can a learned man like Tamma Bhaiyya say " soul/self does not exist? " . From his writings his deep knowledge of Upanishads is abundantly clear Jee! By the way, Jee ! All others except individual soul-self/God are " nothing " Jee!! Jee, My second challenge to you, Mahalakshmi Jee, is to prove that everything except Self/Paramatma is not " nothing " . I say for the first time it is " nothing " . Now I say, Jee, that all balance (except individual soul and God ) including mind, ego, intellect, body, world (inert) is nothing-nothing-nothing Jee. I dare you to prove me wrong. I challenge you on that. Come On ! I wait for your reply. " NASATO VIDYATE BHAVO, NABHAVO VIDYATE SATAH " (Gita 2:16) " The Unreal has no existence and the real never ceases to be; the truth of both these, has been perceived by seers of truth. " (Gita 2:16) Come On ! Let us here from you Jee !! Namaste Jee Jee Jee Shashikala - dear fellow sadhaks namaskaram ., even i was having questions on nothingness , and in due course the answer i got for myself is , our existence is not small , even in nothingness it cannot be expressed as small , EVEN WHEN WE ARE NOTHINGNESS , THAT NOTHINGNESS EXISTS , AND SO EXISTENCE IS ETERNAL AND SO WE ARE ETERNAL INDEED . PRANAMS TO GURUJI. ( kindly forgive if anything is wrong in my quote ) " aravanan karan " Let us put it this way. What shall be nothingness? Let us call it as something akin to the state, devoid of everything. No thing, every thing. I would suggest a perspecrive, which shall say that devoid of all emperical aspects, contents. This could further mean that, devoid of all involvement, or attachement to and of, mundane world, emperical world. In other words, it is a state of complete detachment, and even when one goes on living mundane life, it shall be a life without atttachment, living unattached, as in the case of the 'Jivan Mukta'. Precisely this shall be the concept of a " nishkama karma " . With this, one goes into the state of " Tyena Tyaktena Punjita " also. Adi Sankara also speaks in the same line. Jagat is mithya, illusory, which is so because of changing matter. Buddha says the same too, 'Kshanika Vada'. Now the very property of soul is 'Pure Consciousness' and the idea of pure consciousness is minus and mundane contents. it is a consciousness minus any emperical content. perhaps this could be the state of nothing. Visharad Sharma (deleted some paragraphs, to stay aligned with current discussion - from Gita Talk moderator) -------------------------------- I totally agree with Mahalaxmi Dasi. Every soul is significant. If any one hurts that significane, in the future, he himself have to suffer. This is called ATTITUDE of life - it ought to be POSITIVE. Brahma Mehrotra Let us please stick to Mahalaksmi Dasi ji's Hinduism as below. Nothingness is a Buddhist concept not Hindu, nor it is the illusion philosophy of Adi Shankra, surely. This email thread is about Gita Talk and there is nothing in the Gita about nothingness, rather it is about everything - everything that is glorious and great - but only with a condition for Karma that it is done for God so that the Grace of God would absorb it and make it nothing. This is the HINDU concept and from the beginning of creation per the Hindu scripture we have the same concept, for instance, Lord Shiva absorbed the poison from the ocean churning and so on to save mankind ---- anil bhanot GUIDELINES FOR POSTING A RESPONSE: 1. The group is focused on the Holy Gitaji, therefore, only responses which further clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will be posted. 2. Making reference of Gitaji shloka is highly encouraged - at least once in the response. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to substantiate your response. 3. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting sadhaka's time. Under no circustance the answer should be limited to half a book page, at the most 3-4 paragraphs. 4. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only. 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other organizations (we do not have the bandwidth to review links to determine if content is appropriate for distribution). 7. Complete reproduction of texts from any book is strongly discouraged, however partial cut - paste is acceptable and references may be made of the book or author(but not links to other sites). 8. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone number, address etc. 9. Please use appropriate judgement and only address the response to a particular individual, where it makes sense to do so. 10. Due to the large readership, only those responses will be posted which are in line with the general philosophy of taking Shrimad Bhagavad Gita as the reference. 11. Moderator will reject any content that does not meet guidelines. However, for expediency, moderator at his discretion, may modify / delete portions of the posting for mispelling, wordiness that is irrelevant to the overall core discussion, personal information, opinions / feelings etc. that do not align with guidelines. 12. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use of only Sanskrit words, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit bracketed wherever possible. 13. Any personal remarks over the knowledge of any sadhak or about the stage at which any sadhak is standing in his quest / sadhna / spiritual journey - must not be included in your posting. Also, there should not be any sarcasm towards fellow sadhaks in this spiritual learning and sharing. 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Guest guest Posted September 21, 2008 Report Share Posted September 21, 2008 ATTENTION: MODERATORS DO NOT HAVE TIME TO READ EVERY POSTING. THIS PARTICULAR DISCUSSION IS NOW GETTING OUTSIDE THE SCOPE AND GUIDELINES OF THE GROUP. FUTURE POSTINGS THAT DO NOT STRICTLY ADHERE TO THE GUIDELINES WILL BE REJECTED. ON FURTHER THOUGHT, WE SHOULD HAVE DONE A BETTER JOB OF SCREENING THE LAST POSTING. ALL SADHAK AND GITA TALK GROUP EMAILS ARE MODERATED AND POSTED ONLY FROM EMAIL ID: Sadhak_insight. Any emails received from other email ids or individuals are strictly not coming from the moderated site. Thank you! From Gita Talk Moderator Ram Ram I have a question, in regards to various suggestions that are continually made in this forum. I hear repeatedly a theme in regard to the goal of meditation, upasanas, etc, being " nothing " . Also postings telling persons that once they go beyond ego, they become completely mindless, egoless, totally insignificant. It is my understanding that the soul has an existence.....an existence means, " I am not nothing " . I may be insignificant, but by the mere fact that I am saying " I " , that indicates that I, or we, have significance. However small any of our influence or existence may be, we ARE. I challenge those who truly believe that we are nothing. if you truly believe that YOU ARE NOTHING, then how can you have any truth to convey? NOTHINGNESS indicates you have no knowledge, no sense of truth or untruth, no existence. So, why are you trying to give this to others? Respectfully, Mahalakshmi dasi - NEW POSTING Hari Om Neither this web site has advocated any " nothingness " nor any " somethingness " nor has any Sadhak talked about any nothingness or any somethingness- without any context.. We are here to discuss about Gita and religious way of living life. It is in my humble view that you have raised a topic out of " nothing " and used that topic for passing improper personal comments upon contributors to the deliberations. This site is definitely not meant for exhibition of such behavior where we can injudiciously call any person to be hypocrite or question as to how he is using title " Dr " before his name or throwing mud at any person's way of living. None is entitled to exhibit such conduct. Dr is part of a name. Does not the other party also has a name after a divine person of Sanatan Dharma? What right then he/she has to use that name? In the recent past also similar absurd, comments were passed even for a Saint of the class of Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj. He was called as a hypocrite, dishonest, false and what not. Due to continued similar conduct, I must state my views. I hope the Moderators will be as kind to me as they were with this particular sadhak- in publishing this note.. Is such conduct proper? Is it fair? If some one does not agree to any view point, he/she has choice /option of humbly disagreeing and withdrawing from deliberations. Which religion or Preceptor teaches us to humiliate in such a brazen manner any contributors ? This has so far been for genuine sadhaks, has it not? Who asked a comparison between two countries? Did the discussion warrant that? It must be understood that such person not only lowers himself/herself before such an elite family type satsanga forum, but he/she also brings to disrepute his/her siksha/ diksha Gurus and the very organisation to which she/he claims to be belonging. One must never forget that if you raise one accusing finger towards any one, 3 fingers of the same hand get directed towards you- automatically. Sanatan Dharma/Vedas never teach such conduct. Dr Anjaneya and Mr. Naga Narayana are entitled to get an apology. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ------------------------------ Dear Sadaks, Putting Dr in front of name is identification of the body. More over Dr means profession not the soul. Sri Krishnah mean anadham. Sri is respect to our Bagavan. Plain Krishna may mean somebody by name Krishna. Dr.Anjeneyalu put Dr prefix before his name by habbit. Dr profession has nothing to do with spritual matters. Dear Sadaks please avoid finding fault with one an another. See Bagavan in everybody. There is NOTHING wrong Right in identification. Bagavan in Geetha says in many places Partha or Arjuna. It is only identification to who Bagavan speaking to. For Bagavan Partha or Duryodana are equal to HIM. B.Sathyanarayan ------------------------------- Narayan Narayan Mateshwari jee IN ENGLISH That which changes, is unreal (non-existent, perishable, moving towards destruction) and That which does not change, is real (existent,imperishable)(Gita 2:16) IN HINDI Jho bhadalta hai uski saata naahi hoti or Jho naahi bhadalta usi ki saata hoti hai(Gita 2:16) (ramchandra) - Dear Sadhaks, I was comtemplating on Vivekachudami of Adi Sankara`s. My friend not intereseted in spiritual matters asked me, " What are you contemplating as you could not recognise my presence " . I said, " NOTHING " . Does it mean real. I was contemplating on SOMETHING. Going beyond conscience level (without Pragniya) is Samadhi state, that which like Sadashiva Bramendral/yogi Raj could do. But these saints came back to normal state after many days. How? They were with Paramatma but though their functioning they were beyond senses. During Maha Pralaya (final destruction) it says everything gets destroyed with souls abiding in Paramatma. Again when creation commences these souls take forms. This is said in Upanishads. So there is NO stage called " Nothing " exists. But the word " nothing " is misunderstood. Nothing more to discuss rather than keep saying " Om Namo Narayana " . B.Sathyanarayan My dandavats to all in this forum, In response to Dr. Anjaneyuyu Goli, I would like to respond from a point of view of one who has certainly studied the Vedas, but not with the ability to translate, or even to know the various different meanings which can be attributed to any given word, which causes the scenario of, depending on who is translating,, a totally different meaning being gleaned depending on the mood/interpretation of the translator. So, my response to you, Dr, is, if you truly believe that nothingness is the ultimate, why do you put the title " Dr " in front of your name? Why not go by Anjaneyuyu Nothing? Indeed, with no disrespect intended, I ask you honestly, isn't it a bit of hypocrisy to use a title which sets you just a niche or two above others, while presenting that nothingness, which has no social distinctions, is your belief system? Truly, it may appeal to some (I am not saying anyone in particular, it is a question more than an accusation) that they can hide behind a convenient philosophy of nothingness, which allows no sense of impending guilt if one behaves in a misdirected or selfish, or just plain sinful fashion. But if an individual truly is in touch with Supersoul, I believe that he or she will not accept a translation of the holy scriptures which guides one to nothingness. Because no one can live this path in this life. No one can sit down on the sidewalk, stop eating, drinking, interacting, striving for recognition amongst one's fellow human beings, etc. So, when I hear presentations which are concluding with this idea, my only thought is that it is not an honest path. Those who choose it do not live it. It is virtually impossible in the west, even to remain seated as an Avadhut, such as Rsabhadeva did in the Bhagavatam.....(He lay on the ground, like a python, and if food entered his mouth, He ate....if nothing came to Him, He fasted.....but He also was able to make His stool smell like roses, because He is the Supreme Personality of Godhead incarnated). Anyway, if someone were on such a detached level in this country, he would be subject to being thrown in jail. A truly realized person would not allow himself to be the object of such offensive actions, knowing the offenders would suffer horrible reactions. He would not put himself in such a position.....but in India, certainly one could live in the streets, waiting for whatever mercy of the Lord came to him, and be left alone. Personally, I do not accept that even this conduct, of the avadhut's, is a state of " nothingness " . I have understood from my teachers, and my studying of the Vedas, that those whose activities in this world are minimal, but are either absorbed in chanting the Lord's names, or in trance, are still absorbed within in a realm of total activity, a state of samadhi where the soul has left this encagement and is interacting in a transcendental world, beyond time and space. In this transcendental world, described in the Brahma Samhita, there is no time.Not even the passing of one moment; it remains in the eternal, undivided present. Brahma Samhita gives detailed description of this transcendental world, which is full of Surabhi cows, which fulfill all desires, where unlimited wish-fulfilling trees fulfill any aspiration of the devotee (who's only desires are to continue engaging in loving devotional exchanges with the Lord and other sadhaks) where light is full of knowledge and bliss, and where the supreme spiritual substance which comprises all things is relishable (cintamani). This is a world which is not " nothing " . It may sound like a " fairy tale " to some, but I truly believe that fairies are real. If you or others don't believe in fairies, or in Goloka Vrndavana, which is presented in the Brahma Samhita, then you may have to keep trying to believe in nothing. Personally, I feel that " nothingness " philosophy is a trap, and I pray that any sadhaks reading this kindly bless me that I may have the strength to always resist the temptation of " nothingness " . I feel it is an excuse for giving up loving devotional activites, such as sravanam, kirtanam, visnoh smaranam (hearing, chanting, and remembering the Lord). My respects to all, Mahalaksmi Dasi Respected Dr. Anjaneyulu Goli Jay Shri Krushn Pl. refer to foll. text in your reply. Can you pl. help me to know the source of the same. Our Krishna said 'Jagadavyaktamurtina' I am unmanifest Divinity. 'Naaham Prakasaha' I am not manifest. He is beyond Purusha - NOTHING Jay Shri Krushn Vimal PRIOR POSTING The 'Challenge' is the best question " Pariprasna " . The Answer is - This philosophical precept of 'Nothing' is 'Everything' , beyond the Purusha. The Kathopanishad answers the challenge Beyond the senses are the objects beyond the objects is the mind beyond the mind is the intellect beyond the intellect the great Atman beyond the Atman the unmanifest beyond the unmanifest - the Purusha beyond the Purusha - there is Nothing this is the end, the Supreme goal ---- thus Nothing is Everything, even beyond Purusha. Our Krishna said 'Jagadavyaktamurtina' I am unmanifest Divinity. 'Naaham Prakasaha' I am not manifest. He is beyond Purusha - NOTHING Dr. Anjaneyulu Goli ---------------------------- Dear Mahalakshmi Dasiji, When ever we use the word ' I ' mostly we mean the body or the mind or the intellect. This is because we accept ourselves as one of these. In other words, we identify ourselves as one of these. Rarely do we mean 'Atma' being the ' I '. In that sense, one may say that as distinct from soul ' I ' exists. Having realised God, there is no ' I ' as earlier percieved (Body, Mind or Intellect). Now, the identity of this ' I ' in case of a 'Gyani' merges with the soul. It is like a drop of water is different from the ocean only so far as it has not merged with it. Having fallen in and merging with the ocean, there is no more separate identity of the drop of water. As distict from this, in 'Bhakti', the Bhakta wants to retain his separate identity not as this body, mind or intellect but as 'Sevak' of his God. His identity then changes from his wordly identity to his 'Adhyatmic' identity. I wonder if I have been able to clarify your thoughts. My request to fellow Sadhaks is that instead of answering a question by asking another question or challenging the questioner, it would be better if we think from the point of view of the questioner and appreciate her point of view before we embark upon obsessively answering the question. We will never be able to do justice to the question unless we try to put ourselves into the shoe of the questioner and think from his point of view as to why he may have asked the question. A.H.Dalmia ---------------------------- For directly viewing and realizing this sort of " Nothingness " under discussion, one has to look towards the clear sky with absolutely a vacant look, though at the same time trying to very deeply perceive what is happening there,within minutes it will be seen that there are streams of infinitisimal bubbles which appear from nowhere and disappear to nowhere moving with tremendous speed. What are these bubbles? wherefrom these originate and where do they go? Perhaps they do not at all originate and also do not at all disintegrate. This close and continuous observation may lead to further realization which we go on hunting in our mind for birth after birth to remind at the end " amon manab jonom roilo potit, abad korle folto shona " (such a human birth has been wasted, had it been properly nourished gold could have been ripped). Barin Chatterjee ------------------------------ Dear Sadaks, The conscience level of Ego, desire, Anger etc completely vanishes for a person who meditated/introgated and found that everything around is temporary and that which is Sat- Chit- Anandam is permanent.That person remains silent (even does not meditate) and wittnesses everything around with smile on his face. He has very clearly understood he is not the body but Athuman and NOTHING important to him, even his death. Examples: 1)Jada Bharatha was to beheaded as human sacrifice. Bagavath says-He face became like just bloomed lotus. For him NOTHING matters. 2)Tukaram had vision of Sri Vishnu inviting him to Vaikunt. He had 2 small kids and wife. NOTHING was important to him than Bagavan call. There was no feeling about his family as he knew that his family belongs to Jaganath` s and not his. Total surrender. As long as he was with his family he never failed in his Karma. But when call came from Divineess NOTHING was important to him. 3)Ramana Rishi in Thiruvanaamalai left home at age of 12 reached Arunachalleswarar Temple. NOTHING was important to him other than self realization. 4) Valmiki left his family and sat in meditation. NOTHING was important to him than Rama NAAM. 5) Puranderdoss was a king of himself with 9 Crore wealth at that time and was called Nava Koti Narayanan. A vision of Sri Vishnu made him to leave everything behind and go as Bikshu. NOTHING was important to him, as he knew very well that everything around has to left one day on Anthim Yatra. Why wait till that day, do it today, use the body equipment for realization. He did not know whether he will get next meal. But NOTHING around was important to him. 6) In Neveli near chennai, there lived a person by name Vallalar very recently during British rule. He disappeared in presence of so many Govt official. NOTHING was important to him. 7) Eknath Maharaj used to say that to day is the day for Nama Sankeethan, tomorrow is not in my hands. So there was glory in his face that everyone saw. For him NOTHING was interesting around him. Sadaks might be knowing about a muslim who spitted on Ekanath several time same day but Ekanath did not unter a word, but said it is Bagavan Leela. NOTHING disturbed him or NOTHING was there for him to get angry. There is Paramathuma- Easwar (Shiva)- Brama Lok- Ganderva Lok etc 14 worlds, beyond is Sri Chakra (Refer Sounderiya Lehari) and Vaikunt For an ant the knowledge is limited only to area it lives. So also for ignorant persons. For the realized one knowledge is limitless, he can converse in any language, he sees Bhraman in everything, he undergoes any torcher silently with smile as he knows NOTHING can trouble him. E.g. Prahalad B.Sathyanarayan -------------------------------- PRIOR POSTING Dear Maha Dasi, I am watching you to learn the great qualities in your name as well as your outlook ... You are already there ... that is why you could call yourself as a Dasi (a Maha Dasi for me to practice) ... The Nothing is the state of Bhakti as such ... I know I use this term a lot in my responses ... Your doubt is an excellent since that wields the power of annihilating all other doubts categorically. I will make an attempt to address it in a series of limitted appreciations that I could make on The Avadhuta Gita ... Respects. Naga Narayana -------------------------------- Jai Hanuman Mahalakshmi Mata Jee ! You have ended your question by a challenge ! Unnecessarily !! Hence I must challenge you Jee - necessarily- Jee !!! I challenge you Mahalakshmi Mata Jee to find out(please search, search and search !!! Jee Jee !) and present before sadhaks a single statement made by any sadhak at any point of time where he/she has stated that " soul has no existence " . Sadhaks are not mad and insane people who can write so - none has written so in my view, then what to talk of Sadhaks of this esteemed Gita Talk Group Jee ?? Tamma Bhaiyya (My Dear Brother Naga Narayanaji) once or twice referred regarding " Nothingness " but never with reference to soul/self/Paramatma. Tamma Bhaiyya was 100 percent right there. How can a learned man like Tamma Bhaiyya say " soul/self does not exist? " . From his writings his deep knowledge of Upanishads is abundantly clear Jee! By the way, Jee ! All others except individual soul-self/God are " nothing " Jee!! Jee, My second challenge to you, Mahalakshmi Jee, is to prove that everything except Self/Paramatma is not " nothing " . I say for the first time it is " nothing " . Now I say, Jee, that all balance (except individual soul and God ) including mind, ego, intellect, body, world (inert) is nothing-nothing-nothing Jee. I dare you to prove me wrong. I challenge you on that. Come On ! I wait for your reply. " NASATO VIDYATE BHAVO, NABHAVO VIDYATE SATAH " (Gita 2:16) " The Unreal has no existence and the real never ceases to be; the truth of both these, has been perceived by seers of truth. " (Gita 2:16) Come On ! Let us here from you Jee !! Namaste Jee Jee Jee Shashikala - dear fellow sadhaks namaskaram ., even i was having questions on nothingness , and in due course the answer i got for myself is , our existence is not small , even in nothingness it cannot be expressed as small , EVEN WHEN WE ARE NOTHINGNESS , THAT NOTHINGNESS EXISTS , AND SO EXISTENCE IS ETERNAL AND SO WE ARE ETERNAL INDEED . PRANAMS TO GURUJI. ( kindly forgive if anything is wrong in my quote ) " aravanan karan " Let us put it this way. What shall be nothingness? Let us call it as something akin to the state, devoid of everything. No thing, every thing. I would suggest a perspecrive, which shall say that devoid of all emperical aspects, contents. This could further mean that, devoid of all involvement, or attachement to and of, mundane world, emperical world. In other words, it is a state of complete detachment, and even when one goes on living mundane life, it shall be a life without atttachment, living unattached, as in the case of the 'Jivan Mukta'. Precisely this shall be the concept of a " nishkama karma " . With this, one goes into the state of " Tyena Tyaktena Punjita " also. Adi Sankara also speaks in the same line. Jagat is mithya, illusory, which is so because of changing matter. Buddha says the same too, 'Kshanika Vada'. Now the very property of soul is 'Pure Consciousness' and the idea of pure consciousness is minus and mundane contents. it is a consciousness minus any emperical content. perhaps this could be the state of nothing. Visharad Sharma (deleted some paragraphs, to stay aligned with current discussion - from Gita Talk moderator) -------------------------------- I totally agree with Mahalaxmi Dasi. Every soul is significant. If any one hurts that significane, in the future, he himself have to suffer. This is called ATTITUDE of life - it ought to be POSITIVE. Brahma Mehrotra Let us please stick to Mahalaksmi Dasi ji's Hinduism as below. Nothingness is a Buddhist concept not Hindu, nor it is the illusion philosophy of Adi Shankra, surely. This email thread is about Gita Talk and there is nothing in the Gita about nothingness, rather it is about everything - everything that is glorious and great - but only with a condition for Karma that it is done for God so that the Grace of God would absorb it and make it nothing. This is the HINDU concept and from the beginning of creation per the Hindu scripture we have the same concept, for instance, Lord Shiva absorbed the poison from the ocean churning and so on to save mankind ---- anil bhanot GUIDELINES FOR POSTING A RESPONSE: 1. The group is focused on the Holy Gitaji, therefore, only responses which further clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will be posted. 2. Making reference of Gitaji shloka is highly encouraged - at least once in the response. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to substantiate your response. 3. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting sadhaka's time. Under no circustance the answer should be limited to half a book page, at the most 3-4 paragraphs. 4. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only. 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other organizations (we do not have the bandwidth to review links to determine if content is appropriate for distribution). 7. Complete reproduction of texts from any book is strongly discouraged, however partial cut - paste is acceptable and references may be made of the book or author(but not links to other sites). 8. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone number, address etc. 9. Please use appropriate judgement and only address the response to a particular individual, where it makes sense to do so. 10. Due to the large readership, only those responses will be posted which are in line with the general philosophy of taking Shrimad Bhagavad Gita as the reference. 11. Moderator will reject any content that does not meet guidelines. However, for expediency, moderator at his discretion, may modify / delete portions of the posting for mispelling, wordiness that is irrelevant to the overall core discussion, personal information, opinions / feelings etc. that do not align with guidelines. 12. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use of only Sanskrit words, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit bracketed wherever possible. 13. Any personal remarks over the knowledge of any sadhak or about the stage at which any sadhak is standing in his quest / sadhna / spiritual journey - must not be included in your posting. Also, there should not be any sarcasm towards fellow sadhaks in this spiritual learning and sharing. 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Guest guest Posted September 21, 2008 Report Share Posted September 21, 2008 ATTENTION: ALL SADHAK AND GITA TALK GROUP EMAILS ARE MODERATED AND POSTED ONLY FROM EMAIL ID: Sadhak_insight. Any emails received from other email ids or individuals are strictly not coming from the moderated site. Thank you! From Gita Talk Moderator Ram Ram I have a question, in regards to various suggestions that are continually made in this forum. I hear repeatedly a theme in regard to the goal of meditation, upasanas, etc, being " nothing " . Also postings telling persons that once they go beyond ego, they become completely mindless, egoless, totally insignificant. It is my understanding that the soul has an existence.....an existence means, " I am not nothing " . I may be insignificant, but by the mere fact that I am saying " I " , that indicates that I, or we, have significance. However small any of our influence or existence may be, we ARE. I challenge those who truly believe that we are nothing. if you truly believe that YOU ARE NOTHING, then how can you have any truth to convey? NOTHINGNESS indicates you have no knowledge, no sense of truth or untruth, no existence. So, why are you trying to give this to others? Respectfully, Mahalakshmi dasi - NEW POSTING Jay Shree Krishna IN ENGLISH I cannot clearly understand everyone's inner sentiments in English. But it appears that from your discussion, it is not going according to the group's intent. Moderator must be careful about this. One must remain alert that without engaging in too much discussion, to grab hold of the essence, and deeply understand it. In Saint's words it is therefore said that " Brother, now leave listening / reading / learning, and instead know, believe and accept it. The thing to know is the world, the thing to believe is God. Beyond those talks a sadhak has not much concern, that who said what? How they said it? Falling into this hassle, a sadhak must remain ever alert not to waste their own time, as well as, other's time. You all are intelligent, and educated.. in few words, one must understand more. Rameshji IN HINDI Mai English me Aap sabke pure bhav samjta nahi hu.Lekin lagta hai ki Aapki charch..es group ke udeshy ke anurup nahi lag rahi hai.Modretor ko yeh khyal rakhna chahiye.Jyada vad-vivad badhakar..sar bat ko grahan karne ke liye sajag rahana chahiye.Sant Vaani me esiliye kaha hoga ki " Bhai Aab sunana-sikhana chhodo...Aur Janana aur Manana swikar kar lo. Janana hai es jagat ke bare me,Manana hai Prabhu ko...jyada bato se sadhak ko matlab nahi ki kisne kya kaha?kaise kaha.Es panchayati me padkar apana aur dusaro ka samy kharab na ho yeh harek sadhak ko savdhani rakhani chahiye.Aap sab samjdar,Padhe-likhe log ho..thode me jyada samaj lena. Rameshji -------------------------------- Hari Om The Kathopanishad state - Chapter 1, Valli 3 , verses 10 and 11 - " There is " nothing " beyond Purusha " . The Upanishads are said to be the summary of Vedas. Shrimad Bhagvad Gita is considered as the " essence " of the Upanishads. Purusha is defined as Paramatma in Gita/Upanishads/Vedas. Purusha is also used for pure soul part in Jeeva. God is also known as Purushottam in Gita.(Gita 15:18). Gita also confirms the same vide Gita 2:16 ,3:42, 9:4, 15:18 and 7:19. (Combined reading) - there may be more verses confirming this.. " Naham prakashah sarvasyam " is in Gita 7:25. Reference reg " avyaktam " is in Gita 9:4 . Refer also " udasinvadasino " term used in BG 14:23 (Like an udasin- when there is nothing except God how can only " udasin " word be used- it has to be " like " an udasin !) This reply is pursuant to Vimalji's query to Dr Goli. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B My dandavats to all in this forum, My sincere apologies to anyone who may have felt my inquiries were out of line in my last posting......I was trying with extreme caution to present my question in a non-personal, general way, but as I am often a tactless person, I can understand that I have failed again. My question was meant to highlight the point that if we believe truly that everything is ultimately nothing, (as indicated in this quotation, " --- thus Nothing is Everything, even beyond Purusha. Our Krishna said 'Jagadavyaktamurtin a' I am unmanifest Divinity. 'Naaham Prakasaha' I am not manifest. He is beyond Purusha - NOTHING " I certainly hope that Anjaneyulu Goli felt no offense, indeed, I am certain that he has the depth of understanding to know that he is not the material body, nor any designation applied to it.....hence, I sincerely doubt if he was offended. A man in knowledge is not disturbed by any reference to the body being significant or not. Still, I thank Vyasaji for pointing out to me that I should be more sensitive. My point was not meant to denigrate anyone, so again, if there was appearance of such, my profuse apologies. On the vein of the same discussion, in his presentation the good Dr. has said, final word, " nothing " ....after the statement, " He is beyond Purusha " . Please kindly explain to me, Vyasa, what this means. I have no problem with the point that we are here trying to understand a religious path, how to live life according to Gita, however, you must accept that it disturbs me greatly to have it presented that the Supreme Absolute Truth, Sri Krsna, who has an eternal form composed of bliss and knowledge, who has a home known as Goloka Vrndavan, who is beyond the Purusa, can be equated with nothingness. If you think that perhaps the doctor was offended by referring to him with the title " nothing " , think about how it must hurt the Supreme Person to be thought of as such. Sincerely, with best wishes, Mahalaksmi Dasi Vimalji - Namaste I present the following source you are pleased to know: ' Naaham prakashha ' Gita Ch 7 Sl 25 Veiled by My Yogamaya, I am not manifest to all. Hence these ignorant folk fail to recognise Me, the unborn and imperishable Supreme Deity 'Jagadavyaktamoorthina' Gita Ch 9 Sl 4 The whole of this universe is permeated by Me as unmanifest Divinity, and all beings rest on the idea within Me. Therefore, really speaking, I am not present in them. Anjaneyulu Goli -------------------------------- Dear readers, Well, I am going to add something to this discussion. It is not wrong to share a dream, is it? I can't tell you who I really am, because I don't know who I am....I think I am this body.....but this dream is really interesting. I was in a room with lots of other sadhaks. I like the word devotees. My guru was sitting up front, only I don't think my guru knew about this dream. I think it was Krsna, appearing as guru. Anyway, he asked me, " What is more dangerous, the poison in the hand of the rabbit, or Nothing? " (Krsna knows all about Alice in Wonderland) I replied, quickly, " Why of course, the poison in the hand of the rabbit, because " nothing " does not exist. " The entire room of devotees responded back to me, " No, " Nothing " is more powerful " . I turned to Krsna-disguised-as-guru....and I gave an inquiring look. To which the response came back, " Nothing is more powerful. Because Alice believed in it. " I think Krsna was challenging me.....do I want to believe in " Nothing " ? I can if I want. It is a powerful, powerful state of mind.......I ask myself many times......what could cause me to believe that there is no longer any point to living? What type of offenses would I commit, that my consciousness would lose track of trying to attain a level of purity, lose track of trying to aspire for being Godly, forget about entering into a realm of eternal lila with Sri Sri Radha and Krsna? etc etc. And lose track of all the times I have seen Krsna in my dreams, inviting me to be near to Him? These are questions I ask often. Thank you for listening to me. Sri Radhe Shirley May - It is only our ego which makes us important. Otherwise we are nothing. We are hollow inside. We are nothing and we dissolve into nothingness, when we die.Unless we realise it we will keep on making mistakes, which will result in endless births and deaths. The spiritual path is only to save our souls. Hari Shanker Deo - PRIOR POSTING Hari Om Neither this web site has advocated any " nothingness " nor any " somethingness " nor has any Sadhak talked about any nothingness or any somethingness- without any context.. We are here to discuss about Gita and religious way of living life. It is in my humble view that you have raised a topic out of " nothing " and used that topic for passing improper personal comments upon contributors to the deliberations. This site is definitely not meant for exhibition of such behavior where we can injudiciously call any person to be hypocrite or question as to how he is using title " Dr " before his name or throwing mud at any person's way of living. None is entitled to exhibit such conduct. Dr is part of a name. Does not the other party also has a name after a divine person of Sanatan Dharma? What right then he/she has to use that name? In the recent past also similar absurd, comments were passed even for a Saint of the class of Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj. He was called as a hypocrite, dishonest, false and what not. Due to continued similar conduct, I must state my views. I hope the Moderators will be as kind to me as they were with this particular sadhak- in publishing this note.. Is such conduct proper? Is it fair? If some one does not agree to any view point, he/she has choice /option of humbly disagreeing and withdrawing from deliberations. Which religion or Preceptor teaches us to humiliate in such a brazen manner any contributors ? This has so far been for genuine sadhaks, has it not? Who asked a comparison between two countries? Did the discussion warrant that? It must be understood that such person not only lowers himself/herself before such an elite family type satsanga forum, but he/she also brings to disrepute his/her siksha/ diksha Gurus and the very organisation to which she/he claims to be belonging. One must never forget that if you raise one accusing finger towards any one, 3 fingers of the same hand get directed towards you- automatically. Sanatan Dharma/Vedas never teach such conduct. Dr. Anjaneyulu Goli and Naga Narayanaji are entitled to an apology. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ------------------------------ Dear Sadaks, Putting Dr in front of name is identification of the body. More over Dr means profession not the soul. Sri Krishnah mean anadham. Sri is respect to our Bagavan. Plain Krishna may mean somebody by name Krishna. Dr.Anjeneyalu put Dr prefix before his name by habbit. Dr profession has nothing to do with spritual matters. Dear Sadaks please avoid finding fault with one an another. See Bagavan in everybody. There is NOTHING wrong Right in identification. Bagavan in Geetha says in many places Partha or Arjuna. It is only identification to who Bagavan speaking to. For Bagavan Partha or Duryodana are equal to HIM. B.Sathyanarayan ------------------------------- Narayan Narayan Mateshwari jee IN ENGLISH That which changes, is unreal (non-existent, perishable, moving towards destruction) and That which does not change, is real (existent,imperishable)(Gita 2:16) IN HINDI Jho bhadalta hai uski saata naahi hoti or Jho naahi bhadalta usi ki saata hoti hai(Gita 2:16) (ramchandra) - Dear Sadhaks, I was comtemplating on Vivekachudami of Adi Sankara`s. My friend not intereseted in spiritual matters asked me, " What are you contemplating as you could not recognise my presence " . I said, " NOTHING " . Does it mean real. I was contemplating on SOMETHING. Going beyond conscience level (without Pragniya) is Samadhi state, that which like Sadashiva Bramendral/yogi Raj could do. But these saints came back to normal state after many days. How? They were with Paramatma but though their functioning they were beyond senses. During Maha Pralaya (final destruction) it says everything gets destroyed with souls abiding in Paramatma. Again when creation commences these souls take forms. This is said in Upanishads. So there is NO stage called " Nothing " exists. But the word " nothing " is misunderstood. Nothing more to discuss rather than keep saying " Om Namo Narayana " . B.Sathyanarayan My dandavats to all in this forum, In response to Dr. Anjaneyuyu Goli, I would like to respond from a point of view of one who has certainly studied the Vedas, but not with the ability to translate, or even to know the various different meanings which can be attributed to any given word, which causes the scenario of, depending on who is translating,, a totally different meaning being gleaned depending on the mood/interpretation of the translator. So, my response to you, Dr, is, if you truly believe that nothingness is the ultimate, why do you put the title " Dr " in front of your name? Why not go by Anjaneyuyu Nothing? Indeed, with no disrespect intended, I ask you honestly, isn't it a bit of hypocrisy to use a title which sets you just a niche or two above others, while presenting that nothingness, which has no social distinctions, is your belief system? Truly, it may appeal to some (I am not saying anyone in particular, it is a question more than an accusation) that they can hide behind a convenient philosophy of nothingness, which allows no sense of impending guilt if one behaves in a misdirected or selfish, or just plain sinful fashion. But if an individual truly is in touch with Supersoul, I believe that he or she will not accept a translation of the holy scriptures which guides one to nothingness. Because no one can live this path in this life. No one can sit down on the sidewalk, stop eating, drinking, interacting, striving for recognition amongst one's fellow human beings, etc. So, when I hear presentations which are concluding with this idea, my only thought is that it is not an honest path. Those who choose it do not live it. It is virtually impossible in the west, even to remain seated as an Avadhut, such as Rsabhadeva did in the Bhagavatam.....(He lay on the ground, like a python, and if food entered his mouth, He ate....if nothing came to Him, He fasted.....but He also was able to make His stool smell like roses, because He is the Supreme Personality of Godhead incarnated). Anyway, if someone were on such a detached level in this country, he would be subject to being thrown in jail. A truly realized person would not allow himself to be the object of such offensive actions, knowing the offenders would suffer horrible reactions. He would not put himself in such a position.....but in India, certainly one could live in the streets, waiting for whatever mercy of the Lord came to him, and be left alone. Personally, I do not accept that even this conduct, of the avadhut's, is a state of " nothingness " . I have understood from my teachers, and my studying of the Vedas, that those whose activities in this world are minimal, but are either absorbed in chanting the Lord's names, or in trance, are still absorbed within in a realm of total activity, a state of samadhi where the soul has left this encagement and is interacting in a transcendental world, beyond time and space. In this transcendental world, described in the Brahma Samhita, there is no time.Not even the passing of one moment; it remains in the eternal, undivided present. Brahma Samhita gives detailed description of this transcendental world, which is full of Surabhi cows, which fulfill all desires, where unlimited wish-fulfilling trees fulfill any aspiration of the devotee (who's only desires are to continue engaging in loving devotional exchanges with the Lord and other sadhaks) where light is full of knowledge and bliss, and where the supreme spiritual substance which comprises all things is relishable (cintamani). This is a world which is not " nothing " . It may sound like a " fairy tale " to some, but I truly believe that fairies are real. If you or others don't believe in fairies, or in Goloka Vrndavana, which is presented in the Brahma Samhita, then you may have to keep trying to believe in nothing. Personally, I feel that " nothingness " philosophy is a trap, and I pray that any sadhaks reading this kindly bless me that I may have the strength to always resist the temptation of " nothingness " . I feel it is an excuse for giving up loving devotional activites, such as sravanam, kirtanam, visnoh smaranam (hearing, chanting, and remembering the Lord). My respects to all, Mahalaksmi Dasi Respected Dr. Anjaneyulu Goli Jay Shri Krushn Pl. refer to foll. text in your reply. Can you pl. help me to know the source of the same. Our Krishna said 'Jagadavyaktamurtina' I am unmanifest Divinity. 'Naaham Prakasaha' I am not manifest. He is beyond Purusha - NOTHING Jay Shri Krushn Vimal PRIOR POSTING The 'Challenge' is the best question " Pariprasna " . The Answer is - This philosophical precept of 'Nothing' is 'Everything' , beyond the Purusha. The Kathopanishad answers the challenge Beyond the senses are the objects beyond the objects is the mind beyond the mind is the intellect beyond the intellect the great Atman beyond the Atman the unmanifest beyond the unmanifest - the Purusha beyond the Purusha - there is Nothing this is the end, the Supreme goal ---- thus Nothing is Everything, even beyond Purusha. Our Krishna said 'Jagadavyaktamurtina' I am unmanifest Divinity. 'Naaham Prakasaha' I am not manifest. He is beyond Purusha - NOTHING Dr. Anjaneyulu Goli ---------------------------- Dear Mahalakshmi Dasiji, When ever we use the word ' I ' mostly we mean the body or the mind or the intellect. This is because we accept ourselves as one of these. In other words, we identify ourselves as one of these. Rarely do we mean 'Atma' being the ' I '. In that sense, one may say that as distinct from soul ' I ' exists. Having realised God, there is no ' I ' as earlier percieved (Body, Mind or Intellect). Now, the identity of this ' I ' in case of a 'Gyani' merges with the soul. It is like a drop of water is different from the ocean only so far as it has not merged with it. Having fallen in and merging with the ocean, there is no more separate identity of the drop of water. As distict from this, in 'Bhakti', the Bhakta wants to retain his separate identity not as this body, mind or intellect but as 'Sevak' of his God. His identity then changes from his wordly identity to his 'Adhyatmic' identity. I wonder if I have been able to clarify your thoughts. My request to fellow Sadhaks is that instead of answering a question by asking another question or challenging the questioner, it would be better if we think from the point of view of the questioner and appreciate her point of view before we embark upon obsessively answering the question. We will never be able to do justice to the question unless we try to put ourselves into the shoe of the questioner and think from his point of view as to why he may have asked the question. A.H.Dalmia ---------------------------- For directly viewing and realizing this sort of " Nothingness " under discussion, one has to look towards the clear sky with absolutely a vacant look, though at the same time trying to very deeply perceive what is happening there,within minutes it will be seen that there are streams of infinitisimal bubbles which appear from nowhere and disappear to nowhere moving with tremendous speed. What are these bubbles? wherefrom these originate and where do they go? Perhaps they do not at all originate and also do not at all disintegrate. This close and continuous observation may lead to further realization which we go on hunting in our mind for birth after birth to remind at the end " amon manab jonom roilo potit, abad korle folto shona " (such a human birth has been wasted, had it been properly nourished gold could have been ripped). Barin Chatterjee ------------------------------ Dear Sadaks, The conscience level of Ego, desire, Anger etc completely vanishes for a person who meditated/introgated and found that everything around is temporary and that which is Sat- Chit- Anandam is permanent.That person remains silent (even does not meditate) and wittnesses everything around with smile on his face. He has very clearly understood he is not the body but Athuman and NOTHING important to him, even his death. Examples: 1)Jada Bharatha was to beheaded as human sacrifice. Bagavath says-He face became like just bloomed lotus. For him NOTHING matters. 2)Tukaram had vision of Sri Vishnu inviting him to Vaikunt. He had 2 small kids and wife. NOTHING was important to him than Bagavan call. There was no feeling about his family as he knew that his family belongs to Jaganath` s and not his. Total surrender. As long as he was with his family he never failed in his Karma. But when call came from Divineess NOTHING was important to him. 3)Ramana Rishi in Thiruvanaamalai left home at age of 12 reached Arunachalleswarar Temple. NOTHING was important to him other than self realization. 4) Valmiki left his family and sat in meditation. NOTHING was important to him than Rama NAAM. 5) Puranderdoss was a king of himself with 9 Crore wealth at that time and was called Nava Koti Narayanan. A vision of Sri Vishnu made him to leave everything behind and go as Bikshu. NOTHING was important to him, as he knew very well that everything around has to left one day on Anthim Yatra. Why wait till that day, do it today, use the body equipment for realization. He did not know whether he will get next meal. But NOTHING around was important to him. 6) In Neveli near chennai, there lived a person by name Vallalar very recently during British rule. He disappeared in presence of so many Govt official. NOTHING was important to him. 7) Eknath Maharaj used to say that to day is the day for Nama Sankeethan, tomorrow is not in my hands. So there was glory in his face that everyone saw. For him NOTHING was interesting around him. Sadaks might be knowing about a muslim who spitted on Ekanath several time same day but Ekanath did not unter a word, but said it is Bagavan Leela. NOTHING disturbed him or NOTHING was there for him to get angry. There is Paramathuma- Easwar (Shiva)- Brama Lok- Ganderva Lok etc 14 worlds, beyond is Sri Chakra (Refer Sounderiya Lehari) and Vaikunt For an ant the knowledge is limited only to area it lives. So also for ignorant persons. For the realized one knowledge is limitless, he can converse in any language, he sees Bhraman in everything, he undergoes any torcher silently with smile as he knows NOTHING can trouble him. E.g. Prahalad B.Sathyanarayan -------------------------------- PRIOR POSTING Dear Maha Dasi, I am watching you to learn the great qualities in your name as well as your outlook ... You are already there ... that is why you could call yourself as a Dasi (a Maha Dasi for me to practice) ... The Nothing is the state of Bhakti as such ... I know I use this term a lot in my responses ... Your doubt is an excellent since that wields the power of annihilating all other doubts categorically. I will make an attempt to address it in a series of limitted appreciations that I could make on The Avadhuta Gita ... Respects. Naga Narayana -------------------------------- Jai Hanuman Mahalakshmi Mata Jee ! You have ended your question by a challenge ! Unnecessarily !! Hence I must challenge you Jee - necessarily- Jee !!! I challenge you Mahalakshmi Mata Jee to find out(please search, search and search !!! Jee Jee !) and present before sadhaks a single statement made by any sadhak at any point of time where he/she has stated that " soul has no existence " . Sadhaks are not mad and insane people who can write so - none has written so in my view, then what to talk of Sadhaks of this esteemed Gita Talk Group Jee ?? Tamma Bhaiyya (My Dear Brother Naga Narayanaji) once or twice referred regarding " Nothingness " but never with reference to soul/self/Paramatma. Tamma Bhaiyya was 100 percent right there. How can a learned man like Tamma Bhaiyya say " soul/self does not exist? " . From his writings his deep knowledge of Upanishads is abundantly clear Jee! By the way, Jee ! All others except individual soul-self/God are " nothing " Jee!! Jee, My second challenge to you, Mahalakshmi Jee, is to prove that everything except Self/Paramatma is not " nothing " . I say for the first time it is " nothing " . Now I say, Jee, that all balance (except individual soul and God ) including mind, ego, intellect, body, world (inert) is nothing-nothing-nothing Jee. I dare you to prove me wrong. I challenge you on that. Come On ! I wait for your reply. " NASATO VIDYATE BHAVO, NABHAVO VIDYATE SATAH " (Gita 2:16) " The Unreal has no existence and the real never ceases to be; the truth of both these, has been perceived by seers of truth. " (Gita 2:16) Come On ! Let us here from you Jee !! Namaste Jee Jee Jee Shashikala - dear fellow sadhaks namaskaram ., even i was having questions on nothingness , and in due course the answer i got for myself is , our existence is not small , even in nothingness it cannot be expressed as small , EVEN WHEN WE ARE NOTHINGNESS , THAT NOTHINGNESS EXISTS , AND SO EXISTENCE IS ETERNAL AND SO WE ARE ETERNAL INDEED . PRANAMS TO GURUJI. ( kindly forgive if anything is wrong in my quote ) " aravanan karan " Let us put it this way. What shall be nothingness? Let us call it as something akin to the state, devoid of everything. No thing, every thing. I would suggest a perspecrive, which shall say that devoid of all emperical aspects, contents. This could further mean that, devoid of all involvement, or attachement to and of, mundane world, emperical world. In other words, it is a state of complete detachment, and even when one goes on living mundane life, it shall be a life without atttachment, living unattached, as in the case of the 'Jivan Mukta'. Precisely this shall be the concept of a " nishkama karma " . With this, one goes into the state of " Tyena Tyaktena Punjita " also. Adi Sankara also speaks in the same line. Jagat is mithya, illusory, which is so because of changing matter. Buddha says the same too, 'Kshanika Vada'. Now the very property of soul is 'Pure Consciousness' and the idea of pure consciousness is minus and mundane contents. it is a consciousness minus any emperical content. perhaps this could be the state of nothing. Visharad Sharma (deleted some paragraphs, to stay aligned with current discussion - from Gita Talk moderator) -------------------------------- I totally agree with Mahalaxmi Dasi. Every soul is significant. If any one hurts that significane, in the future, he himself have to suffer. This is called ATTITUDE of life - it ought to be POSITIVE. Brahma Mehrotra Let us please stick to Mahalaksmi Dasi ji's Hinduism as below. Nothingness is a Buddhist concept not Hindu, nor it is the illusion philosophy of Adi Shankra, surely. This email thread is about Gita Talk and there is nothing in the Gita about nothingness, rather it is about everything - everything that is glorious and great - but only with a condition for Karma that it is done for God so that the Grace of God would absorb it and make it nothing. This is the HINDU concept and from the beginning of creation per the Hindu scripture we have the same concept, for instance, Lord Shiva absorbed the poison from the ocean churning and so on to save mankind ---- anil bhanot GUIDELINES FOR POSTING A RESPONSE: 1. The group is focused on the Holy Gitaji, therefore, only responses which further clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will be posted. 2. Making reference of Gitaji shloka is highly encouraged - at least once in the response. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to substantiate your response. 3. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting sadhaka's time. Under no circustance the answer should be limited to half a book page, at the most 3-4 paragraphs. 4. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only. 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other organizations (we do not have the bandwidth to review links to determine if content is appropriate for distribution). 7. Complete reproduction of texts from any book is strongly discouraged, however partial cut - paste is acceptable and references may be made of the book or author(but not links to other sites). 8. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone number, address etc. 9. Please use appropriate judgement and only address the response to a particular individual, where it makes sense to do so. 10. Due to the large readership, only those responses will be posted which are in line with the general philosophy of taking Shrimad Bhagavad Gita as the reference. 11. Moderator will reject any content that does not meet guidelines. However, for expediency, moderator at his discretion, may modify / delete portions of the posting for mispelling, wordiness that is irrelevant to the overall core discussion, personal information, opinions / feelings etc. that do not align with guidelines. 12. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use of only Sanskrit words, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit bracketed wherever possible. 13. Any personal remarks over the knowledge of any sadhak or about the stage at which any sadhak is standing in his quest / sadhna / spiritual journey - must not be included in your posting. Also, there should not be any sarcasm towards fellow sadhaks in this spiritual learning and sharing. 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Guest guest Posted September 22, 2008 Report Share Posted September 22, 2008 ATTENTION: ALL SADHAK AND GITA TALK GROUP EMAILS ARE MODERATED AND POSTED ONLY FROM EMAIL ID: Sadhak_insight. Any emails received from other email ids or individuals are strictly not coming from the moderated site. Thank you! From Gita Talk Moderator Ram Ram I have a question, in regards to various suggestions that are continually made in this forum. I hear repeatedly a theme in regard to the goal of meditation, upasanas, etc, being " nothing " . Also postings telling persons that once they go beyond ego, they become completely mindless, egoless, totally insignificant. It is my understanding that the soul has an existence.....an existence means, " I am not nothing " . I may be insignificant, but by the mere fact that I am saying " I " , that indicates that I, or we, have significance. However small any of our influence or existence may be, we ARE. I challenge those who truly believe that we are nothing. if you truly believe that YOU ARE NOTHING, then how can you have any truth to convey? NOTHINGNESS indicates you have no knowledge, no sense of truth or untruth, no existence. So, why are you trying to give this to others? Respectfully, Mahalakshmi dasi - NEW POSTING Dandavats.... A light has gone on in my heart!!!! There is a different angle to the explanation of " nothing " beyond Purusha. I did not understand the words previously presented....it is here understood that " nothing " beyond indicates that the Supreme Person is Supreme, there is no more to be said, nothing beyond Him. My gratitude to you, Vyasaji, for getting through this murky intelligence. Mahalaksmi Dasi -- IN ENGLSIH What you saw was a dream. What you are seeing now in your waking state, is also a dream. Brahm is illusion, you yourself had that dream (unreal), and that this is real. The Alice who was in your dream, that same Alice is now as well. This wonderland itself is this life, this world and this Alice is you. Even in dream it was an illusion and even now too you are in illusion. This is the truth and solid thing. Stop believing this body to be yours. Immediately. You will receive benediction. Or else, this Alice may have to even see horrific dreams. Therefore get out of this illusion. You are already established in illusion right now. Even in dream it is only nothing. You simply don't know. This itself is called Maya. This itself is called ignorance, baseness. (Ramchandra) IN HINDI Shirleyji Jo dekha thaa vah dream tha. Jo jagrat avastha main abhi dekh rahe ho vah bhi in fact dream hi hai. Bhram, illusion hai apko ki vah dream (unreal) tha aur yeh real hai. Jo Alice dream main tha vahi Alice abhi bhi hai. Wonderland yeh sansaar hi hai aur Alice aap hain. Dream main bhi bhram main the, abhibhi aap bhram main hi hain. Pucci baat hai yeh. Sareer ko apna maanana band kar dijiye. Immediately. Apka kalyaan ho jayega. Varana bhayankar dreams bhi is wonderland main Alice ko dekhane pad sakte hain. Bhram se baahar nikaliye, Nothing main hi to aap abhi viraajmaan hain. Dream main bhi nothing main hi the. Maloom nahin hai apko. Isi ko maya kaha jata hai. Yehi moodhata kahlaati hai. (Ramchandra) An ardent appeal to everyone: This form has retained its sanctity by promoting the very meaning of Sadhana in its true sense. I appeal to everyone to treat it the same way. In my opinion, Sadhana should always be focused on one's inherent ignorance and inertia with a sole resolve of reducing the same to eventually remove the same. I am sure all share this view. Unfortunately, we have no way but to communicate within and with the fellow like-minded seekers to achieve the same. Communication is the only way of removal of ignorance as it was gained in the same way. There are three types of communications - Pravada, Vivada and Sumvada. Pravada is a single sided instruction from an authority, a Pravadi. Only an authority such as Lord Krishna can do this. Neither of us can be that. I am sure everyone realizes this. Vivada is all of us are too familiar with. Sticking to what we think we know and to attack anything that seems to disturb it in an effort to safeguard what we think we know. The premise for vivada is to promote one's own ego through information and hence it inevitably provocates and injures others inviting a conflict. Such an act is called " Aatmahatya " - self-slaying act because the very act promotes the very same ego which is the most opaque hurdle in one's spiritual progress. It is verily aatmahatya because the gloating or injured ego will never rest removing any chance for anybody to be oneself, one's most natural state of bliss. We have been accumulating our ignorance in such communications all our lives ... I appeal one should not continue this, at least in the name of Sadhana. Sumvada is the one that is necessary wherein the premise is that I may be necessarily wrong since I am the one who is feeling miserable and that somebody may help me reveal my ignorance for my observation and renunciation. Finding wrong in others can only boost one's ignorance. Respecting contradictory views on the contrary may have a chance break one's opaque shell of ignorance. Open mindedness is a must for spiritual practice in my experience. I appeal to everyone to observe this with an open mind. Please ... let us not sacrilege the sanctity of such a forum ... Coming to " Nothing " , Something " , " Everything " etc. I always treat any term or any concept as one belonging to one's perception only. If somebody declares on The God - The Absolute that is beyond all explanations and hence remains mostly unknown within anybody's perception - in any way, I consider it as a childish prank ... nothing more. The very reason that an unknown is unknown is that I do not know that! When I do not know, how can I ever say that is this or that? be it nothing or everything? be that " it exists " or " it does not exist " . All the Upanishads univocaly try to educate our ego to stop its habit of attempting to bring everything into the realm of its " known " . Therefore, I do not want to attempt to make any statements regarding anything that is not known to me - Soul, Self, God, etc. As everybody in this forum understand, they do not belong to the domain of one's ego or its colleagues mind and body! The idea of Nothing is the nothingness in one's perception ... Yada panchaavatishthante Gnyaanaani manasaa saha | Buddhishcha na vicheshatate taamaahuh paramaam gatim || The answer to a seeker's quest to appreciate THAT, the suggestion is to become nothing within - no images, no pretensions, no tendencies, no emotions, no relations, .... nothing but THAT. THAT remains nothing to one's perception as every unknown is nothing bu the nothing in one's perception. The idea of The Everything is that anything and everything including the nothing is based in THAT which makes everything possible being inherent in everything as THAT which can never be known and hence remain nothing within one's perception. Emptying myself to nothing by vomiting all my filth smeared in my desires, fears and all other emotions rooted in these two is what I mean by becoming The Nothing. Only when all the faculties have stopped their childish pranks of attempting to know anything, one attains THAT ... when all the faculties are paused, what is left in one's cognition? The Nothing. AGAIN, PL. DO NOT MAKE AN ATTEMPT TO EXPAND THIS TO ANYTHING BEYOND THE COGNITION. WE HAVE NO BUSINESS TO TALK ABOUT THAT AND HAVE NO RIGHTS TO DISPLAY ANY AUTHORITY OVER IT. Therefore, any authoritative statement that " THAT exists " is as sacrilegious as the claim that " THAT does not exist " . Existence is another concept confined in our perceptional limit ... then how can that be extended beyond? PLEASE DO NOT MAKE THIS MISTAKE. Andhantamam pravishanti ye asmbhutimupasate - One who rejects the idea of The Supreme as it remains unknown is verily ignorant having no clue of how his belief in his knowledge is misleading him. But at least he has a chance that he may see the limits of his understanding ability one day and leave the unknown alone. Tato bhuaya iva te tamo ye u sambhutyaam rataah - But, one who insists that The Supreme exists is a bigger fool with very little chance to appreciate his limitations because he believes even the unknown is known to him!! THEREFORE, my appeal to all is to not sacrilege the Yagnya that is going on in this auspicious forum ... the only thing that should be sacrificed into this fire is our egos, our ignorance ... NEVER our Shraddha. Vivada directly attacks our collective Shraddha. PLEASE do not entertain vivada. With Deep Respects to all. Naga Narayana. -- PRIOR POSTING Jay Shree Krishna IN ENGLISH I cannot clearly understand everyone's inner sentiments in English. But it appears that from your discussion, it is not going according to the group's intent. Moderator must be careful about this. One must remain alert that without engaging in too much discussion, to grab hold of the essence, and deeply understand it. In Saint's words it is therefore said that " Brother, now leave listening / reading / learning, and instead know, believe and accept it. The thing to know is the world, the thing to believe is God. Beyond those talks a sadhak has not much concern, that who said what? How they said it? Falling into this hassle, a sadhak must remain ever alert not to waste their own time, as well as, other's time. You all are intelligent, and educated.. in few words, one must understand more. Rameshji IN HINDI Mai English me Aap sabke pure bhav samjta nahi hu.Lekin lagta hai ki Aapki charch..es group ke udeshy ke anurup nahi lag rahi hai.Modretor ko yeh khyal rakhna chahiye.Jyada vad-vivad badhakar..sar bat ko grahan karne ke liye sajag rahana chahiye.Sant Vaani me esiliye kaha hoga ki " Bhai Aab sunana-sikhana chhodo...Aur Janana aur Manana swikar kar lo. Janana hai es jagat ke bare me,Manana hai Prabhu ko...jyada bato se sadhak ko matlab nahi ki kisne kya kaha?kaise kaha.Es panchayati me padkar apana aur dusaro ka samy kharab na ho yeh harek sadhak ko savdhani rakhani chahiye.Aap sab samjdar,Padhe-likhe log ho..thode me jyada samaj lena. Rameshji -------------------------------- Hari Om The Kathopanishad state - Chapter 1, Valli 3 , verses 10 and 11 - " There is " nothing " beyond Purusha " . The Upanishads are said to be the summary of Vedas. Shrimad Bhagvad Gita is considered as the " essence " of the Upanishads. Purusha is defined as Paramatma in Gita/Upanishads/Vedas. Purusha is also used for pure soul part in Jeeva. God is also known as Purushottam in Gita.(Gita 15:18). Gita also confirms the same vide Gita 2:16 ,3:42, 9:4, 15:18 and 7:19. (Combined reading) - there may be more verses confirming this.. " Naham prakashah sarvasyam " is in Gita 7:25. Reference reg " avyaktam " is in Gita 9:4 . Refer also " udasinvadasino " term used in BG 14:23 (Like an udasin- when there is nothing except God how can only " udasin " word be used- it has to be " like " an udasin !) This reply is pursuant to Vimalji's query to Dr Goli. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B My dandavats to all in this forum, My sincere apologies to anyone who may have felt my inquiries were out of line in my last posting......I was trying with extreme caution to present my question in a non-personal, general way, but as I am often a tactless person, can understand that I have failed again. My question was meant to highlight the point that if we believe truly that everything is ultimately nothing, (as indicated in this quotation, " --- thus Nothing is Everything, even beyond Purusha. Our Krishna said 'Jagadavyaktamurtin a' I am unmanifest Divinity. 'Naaham Prakasaha' I am not manifest. He is beyond Purusha - NOTHING " I certainly hope that Anjaneyulu Goli felt no offense, indeed, I am certain that he has the depth of understanding to know that he is not the material body, nor any designation applied to it.....hence, I sincerely doubt if he was offended. A man in knowledge is not disturbed by any reference to the body being significant or not. Still, I thank Vyasaji for pointing out to me that I should be more sensitive. My point was not meant to denigrate anyone, so again, if there was appearance of such, my profuse apologies. On the vein of the same discussion, in his presentation the good Dr. has said, final word, " nothing " ....after the statement, " He is beyond Purusha " . Please kindly explain to me, Vyasa, what this means. I have no problem with the point that we are here trying to understand a religious path, how to live life according to Gita, however, you must accept that it disturbs me greatly to have it presented that the Supreme Absolute Truth, Sri Krsna, who has an eternal form composed of bliss and knowledge, who has a home known as Goloka Vrndavan, who is beyond the Purusa, can be equated with nothingness. If you think that perhaps the doctor was offended by referring to him with the title " nothing " , think about how it must hurt the Supreme Person to be thought of as such. Sincerely, with best wishes, Mahalaksmi Dasi Vimalji - Namaste I present the following source you are pleased to know: ' Naaham prakashha ' Gita Ch 7 Sl 25 Veiled by My Yogamaya, I am not manifest to all. Hence these ignorant folk fail to recognise Me, the unborn and imperishable Supreme Deity 'Jagadavyaktamoorthina' Gita Ch 9 Sl 4 The whole of this universe is permeated by Me as unmanifest Divinity, and all beings rest on the idea within Me. Therefore, really speaking, I am not present in them. Anjaneyulu Goli -------------------------------- Dear readers, Well, I am going to add something to this discussion. It is not wrong to share a dream, is it? I can't tell you who I really am, because I don't know who I am....I think I am this body.....but this dream is really interesting. I was in a room with lots of other sadhaks. I like the word devotees. My guru was sitting up front, only I don't think my guru knew about this dream. I think it was Krsna, appearing as guru. Anyway, he asked me, " What is more dangerous, the poison in the hand of the rabbit, or Nothing? " (Krsna knows all about Alice in Wonderland) I replied, quickly, " Why of course, the poison in the hand of the rabbit, because " nothing " does not exist. " The entire room of devotees responded back to me, " No, " Nothing " is more powerful " . I turned to Krsna-disguised-as-guru....and I gave an inquiring look. To which the response came back, " Nothing is more powerful. Because Alice believed in it. " I think Krsna was challenging me.....do I want to believe in " Nothing " ? I can if I want. It is a powerful, powerful state of mind.......I ask myself many times......what could cause me to believe that there is no longer any point to living? What type of offenses would I commit, that my consciousness would lose track of trying to attain a level of purity, lose track of trying to aspire for being Godly, forget about entering into a realm of eternal lila with Sri Sri Radha and Krsna? etc etc. And lose track of all the times I have seen Krsna in my dreams, inviting me to be near to Him? These are questions I ask often. Thank you for listening to me. Sri Radhe Shirley May - It is only our ego which makes us important. Otherwise we are nothing. We are hollow inside. We are nothing and we dissolve into nothingness, when we die.Unless we realise it we will keep on making mistakes, which will result in endless births and deaths. The spiritual path is only to save our souls. Hari Shanker Deo - PRIOR POSTING Hari Om Neither this web site has advocated any " nothingness " nor any " somethingness " nor has any Sadhak talked about any nothingness or any somethingness- without any context.. We are here to discuss about Gita and religious way of living life. It is in my humble view that you have raised a topic out of " nothing " and used that topic for passing improper personal comments upon contributors to the deliberations. This site is definitely not meant for exhibition of such behavior where we can injudiciously call any person to be hypocrite or question as to how he is using title " Dr " before his name or throwing mud at any person's way of living. None is entitled to exhibit such conduct. Dr is part of a name. Does not the other party also has a name after a divine person of Sanatan Dharma? What right then he/she has to use that name? In the recent past also similar absurd, comments were passed even for a Saint of the class of Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj. He was called as a hypocrite, dishonest, false and what not. Due to continued similar conduct, I must state my views. I hope the Moderators will be as kind to me as they were with this particular sadhak- in publishing this note.. Is such conduct proper? Is it fair? If some one does not agree to any view point, he/she has choice /option of humbly disagreeing and withdrawing from deliberations. Which religion or Preceptor teaches us to humiliate in such a brazen manner any contributors ? This has so far been for genuine sadhaks, has it not? Who asked a comparison between two countries? Did the discussion warrant that? It must be understood that such person not only lowers himself/herself before such an elite family type satsanga forum, but he/she also brings to disrepute his/her siksha/ diksha Gurus and the very organisation to which she/he claims to be belonging. One must never forget that if you raise one accusing finger towards any one, 3 fingers of the same hand get directed towards you- automatically. Sanatan Dharma/Vedas never teach such conduct. Dr. Anjaneyulu Goli and Naga Narayanaji are entitled to an apology. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ------------------------------ Dear Sadaks, Putting Dr in front of name is identification of the body. More over Dr means profession not the soul. Sri Krishnah mean anadham. Sri is respect to our Bagavan. Plain Krishna may mean somebody by name Krishna. Dr.Anjeneyalu put Dr prefix before his name by habbit. Dr profession has nothing to do with spritual matters. Dear Sadaks please avoid finding fault with one an another. See Bagavan in everybody. There is NOTHING wrong Right in identification. Bagavan in Geetha says in many places Partha or Arjuna. It is only identification to who Bagavan speaking to. For Bagavan Partha or Duryodana are equal to HIM. B.Sathyanarayan ------------------------------- Narayan Narayan Mateshwari jee IN ENGLISH That which changes, is unreal (non-existent, perishable, moving towards destruction) and That which does not change, is real (existent,imperishable)(Gita 2:16) IN HINDI Jho bhadalta hai uski saata naahi hoti or Jho naahi bhadalta usi ki saata hoti hai(Gita 2:16) (ramchandra) - Dear Sadhaks, I was comtemplating on Vivekachudami of Adi Sankara`s. My friend not intereseted in spiritual matters asked me, " What are you contemplating as you could not recognise my presence " . I said, " NOTHING " . Does it mean real. I was contemplating on SOMETHING. Going beyond conscience level (without Pragniya) is Samadhi state, that which like Sadashiva Bramendral/yogi Raj could do. But these saints came back to normal state after many days. How? They were with Paramatma but though their functioning they were beyond senses. During Maha Pralaya (final destruction) it says everything gets destroyed with souls abiding in Paramatma. Again when creation commences these souls take forms. This is said in Upanishads. So there is NO stage called " Nothing " exists. But the word " nothing " is misunderstood. Nothing more to discuss rather than keep saying " Om Namo Narayana " . B.Sathyanarayan My dandavats to all in this forum, In response to Dr. Anjaneyuyu Goli, I would like to respond from a point of view of one who has certainly studied the Vedas, but not with the ability to translate, or even to know the various different meanings which can be attributed to any given word, which causes the scenario of, depending on who is translating,, a totally different meaning being gleaned depending on the mood/interpretation of the translator. So, my response to you, Dr, is, if you truly believe that nothingness is the ultimate, why do you put the title " Dr " in front of your name? Why not go by Anjaneyuyu Nothing? Indeed, with no disrespect intended, I ask you honestly, isn't it a bit of hypocrisy to use a title which sets you just a niche or two above others, while presenting that nothingness, which has no social distinctions, is your belief system? Truly, it may appeal to some (I am not saying anyone in particular, it is a question more than an accusation) that they can hide behind a convenient philosophy of nothingness, which allows no sense of impending guilt if one behaves in a misdirected or selfish, or just plain sinful fashion. But if an individual truly is in touch with Supersoul, I believe that he or she will not accept a translation of the holy scriptures which guides one to nothingness. Because no one can live this path in this life. No one can sit down on the sidewalk, stop eating, drinking, interacting, striving for recognition amongst one's fellow human beings, etc. So, when I hear presentations which are concluding with this idea, my only thought is that it is not an honest path. Those who choose it do not live it. It is virtually impossible in the west, even to remain seated as an Avadhut, such as Rsabhadeva did in the Bhagavatam.....(He lay on the ground, like a python, and if food entered his mouth, He ate....if nothing came to Him, He fasted.....but He also was able to make His stool smell like roses, because He is the Supreme Personality of Godhead incarnated). Anyway, if someone were on such a detached level in this country, he would be subject to being thrown in jail. A truly realized person would not allow himself to be the object of such offensive actions, knowing the offenders would suffer horrible reactions. He would not put himself in such a position.....but in India, certainly one could live in the streets, waiting for whatever mercy of the Lord came to him, and be left alone. Personally, I do not accept that even this conduct, of the avadhut's, is a state of " nothingness " . I have understood from my teachers, and my studying of the Vedas, that those whose activities in this world are minimal, but are either absorbed in chanting the Lord's names, or in trance, are still absorbed within in a realm of total activity, a state of samadhi where the soul has left this encagement and is interacting in a transcendental world, beyond time and space. In this transcendental world, described in the Brahma Samhita, there is no time.Not even the passing of one moment; it remains in the eternal, undivided present. Brahma Samhita gives detailed description of this transcendental world, which is full of Surabhi cows, which fulfill all desires, where unlimited wish-fulfilling trees fulfill any aspiration of the devotee (who's only desires are to continue engaging in loving devotional exchanges with the Lord and other sadhaks) where light is full of knowledge and bliss, and where the supreme spiritual substance which comprises all things is relishable (cintamani). This is a world which is not " nothing " . It may sound like a " fairy tale " to some, but I truly believe that fairies are real. If you or others don't believe in fairies, or in Goloka Vrndavana, which is presented in the Brahma Samhita, then you may have to keep trying to believe in nothing. Personally, I feel that " nothingness " philosophy is a trap, and I pray that any sadhaks reading this kindly bless me that I may have the strength to always resist the temptation of " nothingness " . I feel it is an excuse for giving up loving devotional activites, such as sravanam, kirtanam, visnoh smaranam (hearing, chanting, and remembering the Lord). My respects to all, Mahalaksmi Dasi Respected Dr. Anjaneyulu Goli Jay Shri Krushn Pl. refer to foll. text in your reply. Can you pl. help me to know the source of the same. Our Krishna said 'Jagadavyaktamurtina' I am unmanifest Divinity. 'Naaham Prakasaha' I am not manifest. He is beyond Purusha - NOTHING Jay Shri Krushn Vimal PRIOR POSTING The 'Challenge' is the best question " Pariprasna " . The Answer is - This philosophical precept of 'Nothing' is 'Everything' , beyond the Purusha. The Kathopanishad answers the challenge Beyond the senses are the objects beyond the objects is the mind beyond the mind is the intellect beyond the intellect the great Atman beyond the Atman the unmanifest beyond the unmanifest - the Purusha beyond the Purusha - there is Nothing this is the end, the Supreme goal ---- thus Nothing is Everything, even beyond Purusha. Our Krishna said 'Jagadavyaktamurtina' I am unmanifest Divinity. 'Naaham Prakasaha' I am not manifest. He is beyond Purusha - NOTHING Dr. Anjaneyulu Goli ---------------------------- Dear Mahalakshmi Dasiji, When ever we use the word ' I ' mostly we mean the body or the mind or the intellect. This is because we accept ourselves as one of these. In other words, we identify ourselves as one of these. Rarely do we mean 'Atma' being the ' I '. In that sense, one may say that as distinct from soul ' I ' exists. Having realised God, there is no ' I ' as earlier percieved (Body, Mind or Intellect). Now, the identity of this ' I ' in case of a 'Gyani' merges with the soul. It is like a drop of water is different from the ocean only so far as it has not merged with it. Having fallen in and merging with the ocean, there is no more separate identity of the drop of water. As distict from this, in 'Bhakti', the Bhakta wants to retain his separate identity not as this body, mind or intellect but as 'Sevak' of his God. His identity then changes from his wordly identity to his 'Adhyatmic' identity. I wonder if I have been able to clarify your thoughts. My request to fellow Sadhaks is that instead of answering a question by asking another question or challenging the questioner, it would be better if we think from the point of view of the questioner and appreciate her point of view before we embark upon obsessively answering the question. We will never be able to do justice to the question unless we try to put ourselves into the shoe of the questioner and think from his point of view as to why he may have asked the question. A.H.Dalmia ---------------------------- For directly viewing and realizing this sort of " Nothingness " under discussion, one has to look towards the clear sky with absolutely a vacant look, though at the same time trying to very deeply perceive what is happening there,within minutes it will be seen that there are streams of infinitisimal bubbles which appear from nowhere and disappear to nowhere moving with tremendous speed. What are these bubbles? wherefrom these originate and where do they go? Perhaps they do not at all originate and also do not at all disintegrate. This close and continuous observation may lead to further realization which we go on hunting in our mind for birth after birth to remind at the end " amon manab jonom roilo potit, abad korle folto shona " (such a human birth has been wasted, had it been properly nourished gold could have been ripped). Barin Chatterjee ------------------------------ Dear Sadaks, The conscience level of Ego, desire, Anger etc completely vanishes for a person who meditated/introgated and found that everything around is temporary and that which is Sat- Chit- Anandam is permanent.That person remains silent (even does not meditate) and wittnesses everything around with smile on his face. He has very clearly understood he is not the body but Athuman and NOTHING important to him, even his death. Examples: 1)Jada Bharatha was to beheaded as human sacrifice. Bagavath says-He face became like just bloomed lotus. For him NOTHING matters. 2)Tukaram had vision of Sri Vishnu inviting him to Vaikunt. He had 2 small kids and wife. NOTHING was important to him than Bagavan call. There was no feeling about his family as he knew that his family belongs to Jaganath` s and not his. Total surrender. As long as he was with his family he never failed in his Karma. But when call came from Divineess NOTHING was important to him. 3)Ramana Rishi in Thiruvanaamalai left home at age of 12 reached Arunachalleswarar Temple. NOTHING was important to him other than self realization. 4) Valmiki left his family and sat in meditation. NOTHING was important to him than Rama NAAM. 5) Puranderdoss was a king of himself with 9 Crore wealth at that time and was called Nava Koti Narayanan. A vision of Sri Vishnu made him to leave everything behind and go as Bikshu. NOTHING was important to him, as he knew very well that everything around has to left one day on Anthim Yatra. Why wait till that day, do it today, use the body equipment for realization. He did not know whether he will get next meal. But NOTHING around was important to him. 6) In Neveli near chennai, there lived a person by name Vallalar very recently during British rule. He disappeared in presence of so many Govt official. NOTHING was important to him. 7) Eknath Maharaj used to say that to day is the day for Nama Sankeethan, tomorrow is not in my hands. So there was glory in his face that everyone saw. For him NOTHING was interesting around him. Sadaks might be knowing about a muslim who spitted on Ekanath several time same day but Ekanath did not unter a word, but said it is Bagavan Leela. NOTHING disturbed him or NOTHING was there for him to get angry. There is Paramathuma- Easwar (Shiva)- Brama Lok- Ganderva Lok etc 14 worlds, beyond is Sri Chakra (Refer Sounderiya Lehari) and Vaikunt For an ant the knowledge is limited only to area it lives. So also for ignorant persons. For the realized one knowledge is limitless, he can converse in any language, he sees Bhraman in everything, he undergoes any torcher silently with smile as he knows NOTHING can trouble him. E.g. Prahalad B.Sathyanarayan -------------------------------- PRIOR POSTING Dear Maha Dasi, I am watching you to learn the great qualities in your name as well as your outlook ... You are already there ... that is why you could call yourself as a Dasi (a Maha Dasi for me to practice) ... The Nothing is the state of Bhakti as such ... I know I use this term a lot in my responses ... Your doubt is an excellent since that wields the power of annihilating all other doubts categorically. I will make an attempt to address it in a series of limitted appreciations that I could make on The Avadhuta Gita ... Respects. Naga Narayana -------------------------------- Jai Hanuman Mahalakshmi Mata Jee ! You have ended your question by a challenge ! Unnecessarily !! Hence I must challenge you Jee - necessarily- Jee !!! I challenge you Mahalakshmi Mata Jee to find out(please search, search and search !!! Jee Jee !) and present before sadhaks a single statement made by any sadhak at any point of time where he/she has stated that " soul has no existence " . Sadhaks are not mad and insane people who can write so - none has written so in my view, then what to talk of Sadhaks of this esteemed Gita Talk Group Jee ?? Tamma Bhaiyya (My Dear Brother Naga Narayanaji) once or twice referred regarding " Nothingness " but never with reference to soul/self/Paramatma. Tamma Bhaiyya was 100 percent right there. How can a learned man like Tamma Bhaiyya say " soul/self does not exist? " . From his writings his deep knowledge of Upanishads is abundantly clear Jee! By the way, Jee ! All others except individual soul-self/God are " nothing " Jee!! Jee, My second challenge to you, Mahalakshmi Jee, is to prove that everything except Self/Paramatma is not " nothing " . I say for the first time it is " nothing " . Now I say, Jee, that all balance (except individual soul and God ) including mind, ego, intellect, body, world (inert) is nothing-nothing-nothing Jee. I dare you to prove me wrong. I challenge you on that. Come On ! I wait for your reply. " NASATO VIDYATE BHAVO, NABHAVO VIDYATE SATAH " (Gita 2:16) " The Unreal has no existence and the real never ceases to be; the truth of both these, has been perceived by seers of truth. " (Gita 2:16) Come On ! Let us here from you Jee !! Namaste Jee Jee Jee Shashikala - dear fellow sadhaks namaskaram ., even i was having questions on nothingness , and in due course the answer i got for myself is , our existence is not small , even in nothingness it cannot be expressed as small , EVEN WHEN WE ARE NOTHINGNESS , THAT NOTHINGNESS EXISTS , AND SO EXISTENCE IS ETERNAL AND SO WE ARE ETERNAL INDEED . PRANAMS TO GURUJI. ( kindly forgive if anything is wrong in my quote ) " aravanan karan " Let us put it this way. What shall be nothingness? Let us call it as something akin to the state, devoid of everything. No thing, every thing. I would suggest a perspecrive, which shall say that devoid of all emperical aspects, contents. This could further mean that, devoid of all involvement, or attachement to and of, mundane world, emperical world. In other words, it is a state of complete detachment, and even when one goes on living mundane life, it shall be a life without atttachment, living unattached, as in the case of the 'Jivan Mukta'. Precisely this shall be the concept of a " nishkama karma " . With this, one goes into the state of " Tyena Tyaktena Punjita " also. Adi Sankara also speaks in the same line. Jagat is mithya, illusory, which is so because of changing matter. Buddha says the same too, 'Kshanika Vada'. Now the very property of soul is 'Pure Consciousness' and the idea of pure consciousness is minus and mundane contents. it is a consciousness minus any emperical content. perhaps this could be the state of nothing. Visharad Sharma (deleted some paragraphs, to stay aligned with current discussion - from Gita Talk moderator) -------------------------------- I totally agree with Mahalaxmi Dasi. Every soul is significant. If any one hurts that significane, in the future, he himself have to suffer. This is called ATTITUDE of life - it ought to be POSITIVE. Brahma Mehrotra Let us please stick to Mahalaksmi Dasi ji's Hinduism as below. Nothingness is a Buddhist concept not Hindu, nor it is the illusion philosophy of Adi Shankra, surely. This email thread is about Gita Talk and there is nothing in the Gita about nothingness, rather it is about everything - everything that is glorious and great - but only with a condition for Karma that it is done for God so that the Grace of God would absorb it and make it nothing. This is the HINDU concept and from the beginning of creation per the Hindu scripture we have the same concept, for instance, Lord Shiva absorbed the poison from the ocean churning and so on to save mankind ---- anil bhanot GUIDELINES FOR POSTING A RESPONSE: 1. The group is focused on the Holy Gitaji, therefore, only responses which further clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will be posted. 2. Making reference of Gitaji shloka is highly encouraged - at least once in the response. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to substantiate your response. 3. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting sadhaka's time. Under no circustance the answer should be limited to half a book page, at the most 3-4 paragraphs. 4. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only. 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other organizations (we do not have the bandwidth to review links to determine if content is appropriate for distribution). 7. Complete reproduction of texts from any book is strongly discouraged, however partial cut - paste is acceptable and references may be made of the book or author(but not links to other sites). 8. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone number, address etc. 9. Please use appropriate judgement and only address the response to a particular individual, where it makes sense to do so. 10. Due to the large readership, only those responses will be posted which are in line with the general philosophy of taking Shrimad Bhagavad Gita as the reference. 11. Moderator will reject any content that does not meet guidelines. However, for expediency, moderator at his discretion, may modify / delete portions of the posting for mispelling, wordiness that is irrelevant to the overall core discussion, personal information, opinions / feelings etc. that do not align with guidelines. 12. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use of only Sanskrit words, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit bracketed wherever possible. 13. Any personal remarks over the knowledge of any sadhak or about the stage at which any sadhak is standing in his quest / sadhna / spiritual journey - must not be included in your posting. Also, there should not be any sarcasm towards fellow sadhaks in this spiritual learning and sharing. 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Guest guest Posted September 26, 2008 Report Share Posted September 26, 2008 ATTENTION: ALL SADHAK AND GITA TALK GROUP EMAILS ARE MODERATED AND POSTED ONLY FROM EMAIL ID: Sadhak_insight. Any emails received from other email ids or individuals are strictly not coming from the moderated site. Thank you! From Gita Talk Moderator Ram Ram I have a question, in regards to the goal of meditation, upasanas, etc, being " nothing " . Once a person goes beyond ego, they become completely mindless, egoless, totally insignificant. It is my understanding that the soul has an existence.....an existence means, " I am not nothing " . NOTHINGNESS indicates we have no knowledge, no sense of truth or untruth, no existence. So, why are you trying to give this to others? If you truly believe that YOU ARE NOTHING, then how can you have any truth to convey? Respectfully, Mahalakshmi dasi - NEW POSTING Jai Hanuman This refers to dream seen by Shirley and narrated for deliberations. Shirleyji. Why in dream only.? In day time also we dream only- whenever we use this mechanical animal known as mind - we dream only. Because our mind can only remain in ignorance zone. It can either travel in " past " or in " future " . Both do not exist !! It remains in " nothing only " . In the dream also there was nothing only. In the wakeful state also , we are dreaming only. Time, order and continuity is bit larger and different in waking state. Otherwise character/nature/element/seer/seen/ seeing wise both are exactly same. Mind is perceiving differently because of illusion, darkness and inherent capacity limitations. Does not our childhood today appear to us as a dream? ( If we are no more child. I can't guess. Because Alice in Wonderland is taught and understood at Sr KG level- I really don't know about maturity ) . That Alice is we. That wonderland is this world. So long as we consider this body and this world to be me and mine, such hallucinations are natural and occur at all times- except in deep sleep. There is no difference in " nothingness " prevailing at all times in us. Whether awake or dreaming. Difference is since that night dream has ended, hence we can call that as " dream " and this day time awakened state dreaming is continuing. To come out of this dream- -First let us put our mind , which is suggesting that " I am body " in a deep freezer - not to be used till deliberations are continuing. - Secondly, Let us use " self " . Ever heard this expression " self " ? Tell honestly if not heard. If we know what " Self " is, then use that instead of mind. We will then grasp the discussion and pick gems out of this Satsanga, and " Nothingness " which is around us at present, will immediately become " Everything " . We are already aware about the names " Radha " , " Krishna " etc. Hence it will be fast process. How to put this mind in deep freezer? Feel we are watcher of this mind. A witness. It is easy. Because. We really are that only. See how it changes. If we are able to feel how our mind is changing every fraction of second, we are through. Come back as soon as we reach to that level. Do revert in case of any problem in dealing with mind or using self/conscience or regarding any other perceptions arising out of mind etc. Jee Jee Shashikala ---------------------------- Dear Sadaks, The supreme becomes humble before his Baktha. Beyond Supreme is HIS bakthas. Bagavan has said in BG that HIS baktha and HE are one and the same. So many instances, Bagavan was quiet, inspite of being abused/misused/ robbed off (temple jewellary). But even the smallest affect (hurting, passing comments, causing inconvenience) to HIS true baktha, the punishment is immediate. (will quote, if needed). So Bagavan keeps HIS bakthas a step higher than Himself (Supreme) B.Sathyanarayan ---------------------------- PRIOR POSTING Dandavats.... A light has gone on in my heart!!!! There is a different angle to the explanation of " nothing " beyond Purusha. I did not understand the words previously presented....it is here understood that " nothing " beyond indicates that the Supreme Person is Supreme, there is no more to be said, nothing beyond Him. My gratitude to you, Vyasaji, for getting through this murky intelligence. My apologies for not responding yet to Sashikala's challenge and agree with her presentation that, as per the Bhagavad Gita, the nature of this material world, being ever changing, is certainly on one level considered to be non-existent; however, it is a very delicate topic. If one says it is " nothing " , then there is room for the mind to say, (at least my mind does on occasion) " If it is all nothing, then why do I have to try so hard to be dutiful? " So, I personally do not like to describe the temporary material creation as nothing....I prefer to consider it as a dream.....a dream IS a dream, it may give some insight into a different realm, if in connection with the Absolute.....or it may have no significance.....but still, it IS. So, I am not so quick to describe this temporary manifestation as nothing. I appreciate your time, pointing out that sadhaks are not interested in activities other than devotional service. I pray that I may not be stuck in this dream forever; may all bless me that I may wake up to my true spiritual nature. Dandavats..... Mahalaksmi Dasi -- IN ENGLSIH What you saw was a dream. What you are seeing now in your waking state, is also a dream. Brahm is illusion, you yourself had that dream (unreal), and that this is real. The Alice who was in your dream, that same Alice is now as well. This wonderland itself is this life, this world and this Alice is you. Even in dream it was an illusion and even now too you are in illusion. This is the truth and solid thing. Stop believing this body to be yours. Immediately. You will receive benediction. Or else, this Alice may have to even see horrific dreams. Therefore get out of this illusion. You are already established in illusion right now. Even in dream it is only nothing. You simply don't know. This itself is called Maya. This itself is called ignorance, baseness. (Ramchandra) IN HINDI Shirleyji Jo dekha thaa vah dream tha. Jo jagrat avastha main abhi dekh rahe ho vah bhi in fact dream hi hai. Bhram, illusion hai apko ki vah dream (unreal) tha aur yeh real hai. Jo Alice dream main tha vahi Alice abhi bhi hai. Wonderland yeh sansaar hi hai aur Alice aap hain. Dream main bhi bhram main the, abhibhi aap bhram main hi hain. Pucci baat hai yeh. Sareer ko apna maanana band kar dijiye. Immediately. Apka kalyaan ho jayega. Varana bhayankar dreams bhi is wonderland main Alice ko dekhane pad sakte hain. Bhram se baahar nikaliye, Nothing main hi to aap abhi viraajmaan hain. Dream main bhi nothing main hi the. Maloom nahin hai apko. Isi ko maya kaha jata hai. Yehi moodhata kahlaati hai. (Ramchandra) An ardent appeal to everyone: This form has retained its sanctity by promoting the very meaning of Sadhana in its true sense. I appeal to everyone to treat it the same way. In my opinion, Sadhana should always be focused on one's inherent ignorance and inertia with a sole resolve of reducing the same to eventually remove the same. I am sure all share this view. Unfortunately, we have no way but to communicate within and with the fellow like-minded seekers to achieve the same. Communication is the only way of removal of ignorance as it was gained in the same way. There are three types of communications - Pravada, Vivada and Sumvada. Pravada is a single sided instruction from an authority, a Pravadi. Only an authority such as Lord Krishna can do this. Neither of us can be that. I am sure everyone realizes this. Vivada is all of us are too familiar with. Sticking to what we think we know and to attack anything that seems to disturb it in an effort to safeguard what we think we know. The premise for vivada is to promote one's own ego through information and hence it inevitably provocates and injures others inviting a conflict. Such an act is called " Aatmahatya " - self-slaying act because the very act promotes the very same ego which is the most opaque hurdle in one's spiritual progress. It is verily aatmahatya because the gloating or injured ego will never rest removing any chance for anybody to be oneself, one's most natural state of bliss. We have been accumulating our ignorance in such communications all our lives ... I appeal one should not continue this, at least in the name of Sadhana. Sumvada is the one that is necessary wherein the premise is that I may be necessarily wrong since I am the one who is feeling miserable and that somebody may help me reveal my ignorance for my observation and renunciation. Finding wrong in others can only boost one's ignorance. Respecting contradictory views on the contrary may have a chance break one's opaque shell of ignorance. Open mindedness is a must for spiritual practice in my experience. I appeal to everyone to observe this with an open mind. Please ... let us not sacrilege the sanctity of such a forum ... Coming to " Nothing " , Something " , " Everything " etc. I always treat any term or any concept as one belonging to one's perception only. If somebody declares on The God - The Absolute that is beyond all explanations and hence remains mostly unknown within anybody's perception - in any way, I consider it as a childish prank ... nothing more. The very reason that an unknown is unknown is that I do not know that! When I do not know, how can I ever say that is this or that? be it nothing or everything? be that " it exists " or " it does not exist " . All the Upanishads univocaly try to educate our ego to stop its habit of attempting to bring everything into the realm of its " known " . Therefore, I do not want to attempt to make any statements regarding anything that is not known to me - Soul, Self, God, etc. As everybody in this forum understand, they do not belong to the domain of one's ego or its colleagues mind and body! The idea of Nothing is the nothingness in one's perception ... Yada panchaavatishthante Gnyaanaani manasaa saha | Buddhishcha na vicheshatate taamaahuh paramaam gatim || The answer to a seeker's quest to appreciate THAT, the suggestion is to become nothing within - no images, no pretensions, no tendencies, no emotions, no relations, .... nothing but THAT. THAT remains nothing to one's perception as every unknown is nothing bu the nothing in one's perception. The idea of The Everything is that anything and everything including the nothing is based in THAT which makes everything possible being inherent in everything as THAT which can never be known and hence remain nothing within one's perception. Emptying myself to nothing by vomiting all my filth smeared in my desires, fears and all other emotions rooted in these two is what I mean by becoming The Nothing. Only when all the faculties have stopped their childish pranks of attempting to know anything, one attains THAT ... when all the faculties are paused, what is left in one's cognition? The Nothing. AGAIN, PL. DO NOT MAKE AN ATTEMPT TO EXPAND THIS TO ANYTHING BEYOND THE COGNITION. WE HAVE NO BUSINESS TO TALK ABOUT THAT AND HAVE NO RIGHTS TO DISPLAY ANY AUTHORITY OVER IT. Therefore, any authoritative statement that " THAT exists " is as sacrilegious as the claim that " THAT does not exist " . Existence is another concept confined in our perceptional limit ... then how can that be extended beyond? PLEASE DO NOT MAKE THIS MISTAKE. Andhantamam pravishanti ye asmbhutimupasate - One who rejects the idea of The Supreme as it remains unknown is verily ignorant having no clue of how his belief in his knowledge is misleading him. But at least he has a chance that he may see the limits of his understanding ability one day and leave the unknown alone. Tato bhuaya iva te tamo ye u sambhutyaam rataah - But, one who insists that The Supreme exists is a bigger fool with very little chance to appreciate his limitations because he believes even the unknown is known to him!! THEREFORE, my appeal to all is to not sacrilege the Yagnya that is going on in this auspicious forum ... the only thing that should be sacrificed into this fire is our egos, our ignorance ... NEVER our Shraddha. Vivada directly attacks our collective Shraddha. PLEASE do not entertain vivada. With Deep Respects to all. Naga Narayana. -- PRIOR POSTING Jay Shree Krishna IN ENGLISH I cannot clearly understand everyone's inner sentiments in English. But it appears that from your discussion, it is not going according to the group's intent. Moderator must be careful about this. One must remain alert that without engaging in too much discussion, to grab hold of the essence, and deeply understand it. In Saint's words it is therefore said that " Brother, now leave listening / reading / learning, and instead know, believe and accept it. The thing to know is the world, the thing to believe is God. Beyond those talks a sadhak has not much concern, that who said what? How they said it? Falling into this hassle, a sadhak must remain ever alert not to waste their own time, as well as, other's time. You all are intelligent, and educated.. in few words, one must understand more. Rameshji IN HINDI Mai English me Aap sabke pure bhav samjta nahi hu.Lekin lagta hai ki Aapki charch..es group ke udeshy ke anurup nahi lag rahi hai.Modretor ko yeh khyal rakhna chahiye.Jyada vad-vivad badhakar..sar bat ko grahan karne ke liye sajag rahana chahiye.Sant Vaani me esiliye kaha hoga ki " Bhai Aab sunana-sikhana chhodo...Aur Janana aur Manana swikar kar lo. Janana hai es jagat ke bare me,Manana hai Prabhu ko...jyada bato se sadhak ko matlab nahi ki kisne kya kaha?kaise kaha. Es panchayati me padkar apana aur dusaro ka samy kharab na ho yeh harek sadhak ko savdhani rakhani chahiye.Aap sab samjdar,Padhe- likhe log ho..thode me jyada samaj lena. Rameshji -------------------------------- Hari Om The Kathopanishad state - Chapter 1, Valli 3 , verses 10 and 11 - " There is " nothing " beyond Purusha " . The Upanishads are said to be the summary of Vedas. Shrimad Bhagvad Gita is considered as the " essence " of the Upanishads. Purusha is defined as Paramatma in Gita/Upanishads/Vedas. Purusha is also used for pure soul part in Jeeva. God is also known as Purushottam in Gita.(Gita 15:18). Gita also confirms the same vide Gita 2:16 ,3:42, 9:4, 15:18 and 7:19. (Combined reading) - there may be more verses confirming this.. " Naham prakashah sarvasyam " is in Gita 7:25. Reference reg " avyaktam " is in Gita 9:4 . Refer also " udasinvadasino " term used in BG 14:23 (Like an udasin- when there is nothing except God how can only " udasin " word be used- it has to be " like " an udasin !) This reply is pursuant to Vimalji's query to Dr Goli. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B My dandavats to all in this forum, My sincere apologies to anyone who may have felt my inquiries were out of line in my last posting......I was trying with extreme caution to present my question in a non-personal, general way, but as I am often a tactless person, can understand that I have failed again. My question was meant to highlight the point that if we believe truly that everything is ultimately nothing, (as indicated in this quotation, " --- thus Nothing is Everything, even beyond Purusha. Our Krishna said 'Jagadavyaktamurtin a' I am unmanifest Divinity. 'Naaham Prakasaha' I am not manifest. He is beyond Purusha - NOTHING " I certainly hope that Anjaneyulu Goli felt no offense, indeed, I am certain that he has the depth of understanding to know that he is not the material body, nor any designation applied to it.....hence, I sincerely doubt if he was offended. A man in knowledge is not disturbed by any reference to the body being significant or not. Still, I thank Vyasaji for pointing out to me that I should be more sensitive. My point was not meant to denigrate anyone, so again, if there was appearance of such, my profuse apologies. On the vein of the same discussion, in his presentation the good Dr. has said, final word, " nothing " ....after the statement, " He is beyond Purusha " . Please kindly explain to me, Vyasa, what this means. I have no problem with the point that we are here trying to understand a religious path, how to live life according to Gita, however, you must accept that it disturbs me greatly to have it presented that the Supreme Absolute Truth, Sri Krsna, who has an eternal form composed of bliss and knowledge, who has a home known as Goloka Vrndavan, who is beyond the Purusa, can be equated with nothingness. If you think that perhaps the doctor was offended by referring to him with the title " nothing " , think about how it must hurt the Supreme Person to be thought of as such. Sincerely, with best wishes, Mahalaksmi Dasi Vimalji - Namaste I present the following source you are pleased to know: ' Naaham prakashha ' Gita Ch 7 Sl 25 Veiled by My Yogamaya, I am not manifest to all. Hence these ignorant folk fail to recognise Me, the unborn and imperishable Supreme Deity 'Jagadavyaktamoorthina' Gita Ch 9 Sl 4 The whole of this universe is permeated by Me as unmanifest Divinity, and all beings rest on the idea within Me. Therefore, really speaking, I am not present in them. Anjaneyulu Goli -------------------------------- Dear readers, Well, I am going to add something to this discussion. It is not wrong to share a dream, is it? I can't tell you who I really am, because I don't know who I am....I think I am this body.....but this dream is really interesting. I was in a room with lots of other sadhaks. I like the word devotees. My guru was sitting up front, only I don't think my guru knew about this dream. I think it was Krsna, appearing as guru. Anyway, he asked me, " What is more dangerous, the poison in the hand of the rabbit, or Nothing? " (Krsna knows all about Alice in Wonderland) I replied, quickly, " Why of course, the poison in the hand of the rabbit, because " nothing " does not exist. " The entire room of devotees responded back to me, " No, " Nothing " is more powerful " . I turned to Krsna-disguised-as-guru....and I gave an inquiring look. To which the response came back, " Nothing is more powerful. Because Alice believed in it. " I think Krsna was challenging me.....do I want to believe in " Nothing " ? I can if I want. It is a powerful, powerful state of mind.......I ask myself many times......what could cause me to believe that there is no longer any point to living? What type of offenses would I commit, that my consciousness would lose track of trying to attain a level of purity, lose track of trying to aspire for being Godly, forget about entering into a realm of eternal lila with Sri Sri Radha and Krsna? etc etc. And lose track of all the times I have seen Krsna in my dreams, inviting me to be near to Him? These are questions I ask often. Thank you for listening to me. Sri Radhe Shirley May - It is only our ego which makes us important. Otherwise we are nothing. We are hollow inside. We are nothing and we dissolve into nothingness, when we die.Unless we realise it we will keep on making mistakes, which will result in endless births and deaths. The spiritual path is only to save our souls. Hari Shanker Deo - PRIOR POSTING Hari Om Neither this web site has advocated any " nothingness " nor any " somethingness " nor has any Sadhak talked about any nothingness or any somethingness- without any context.. We are here to discuss about Gita and religious way of living life. It is in my humble view that you have raised a topic out of " nothing " and used that topic for passing improper personal comments upon contributors to the deliberations. This site is definitely not meant for exhibition of such behavior where we can injudiciously call any person to be hypocrite or question as to how he is using title " Dr " before his name or throwing mud at any person's way of living. None is entitled to exhibit such conduct. Dr is part of a name. Does not the other party also has a name after a divine person of Sanatan Dharma? What right then he/she has to use that name? In the recent past also similar absurd, comments were passed even for a Saint of the class of Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj. He was called as a hypocrite, dishonest, false and what not. Due to continued similar conduct, I must state my views. I hope the Moderators will be as kind to me as they were with this particular sadhak- in publishing this note.. Is such conduct proper? Is it fair? If some one does not agree to any view point, he/she has choice /option of humbly disagreeing and withdrawing from deliberations. Which religion or Preceptor teaches us to humiliate in such a brazen manner any contributors ? This has so far been for genuine sadhaks, has it not? Who asked a comparison between two countries? Did the discussion warrant that? It must be understood that such person not only lowers himself/herself before such an elite family type satsanga forum, but he/she also brings to disrepute his/her siksha/ diksha Gurus and the very organisation to which she/he claims to be belonging. One must never forget that if you raise one accusing finger towards any one, 3 fingers of the same hand get directed towards you- automatically. Sanatan Dharma/Vedas never teach such conduct. Dr. Anjaneyulu Goli and Naga Narayanaji are entitled to an apology. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ------------------------------ Dear Sadaks, Putting Dr in front of name is identification of the body. More over Dr means profession not the soul. Sri Krishnah mean anadham. Sri is respect to our Bagavan. Plain Krishna may mean somebody by name Krishna. Dr.Anjeneyalu put Dr prefix before his name by habbit. Dr profession has nothing to do with spritual matters. Dear Sadaks please avoid finding fault with one an another. See Bagavan in everybody. There is NOTHING wrong Right in identification. Bagavan in Geetha says in many places Partha or Arjuna. It is only identification to who Bagavan speaking to. For Bagavan Partha or Duryodana are equal to HIM. B.Sathyanarayan ------------------------------- Narayan Narayan Mateshwari jee IN ENGLISH That which changes, is unreal (non-existent, perishable, moving towards destruction) and That which does not change, is real (existent,imperishable)(Gita 2:16) IN HINDI Jho bhadalta hai uski saata naahi hoti or Jho naahi bhadalta usi ki saata hoti hai(Gita 2:16) (ramchandra) - Dear Sadhaks, I was comtemplating on Vivekachudami of Adi Sankara`s. My friend not intereseted in spiritual matters asked me, " What are you contemplating as you could not recognise my presence " . I said, " NOTHING " . Does it mean real. I was contemplating on SOMETHING. Going beyond conscience level (without Pragniya) is Samadhi state, that which like Sadashiva Bramendral/yogi Raj could do. But these saints came back to normal state after many days. How? They were with Paramatma but though their functioning they were beyond senses. During Maha Pralaya (final destruction) it says everything gets destroyed with souls abiding in Paramatma. Again when creation commences these souls take forms. This is said in Upanishads. So there is NO stage called " Nothing " exists. But the word " nothing " is misunderstood. Nothing more to discuss rather than keep saying " Om Namo Narayana " . B.Sathyanarayan My dandavats to all in this forum, In response to Dr. Anjaneyuyu Goli, I would like to respond from a point of view of one who has certainly studied the Vedas, but not with the ability to translate, or even to know the various different meanings which can be attributed to any given word, which causes the scenario of, depending on who is translating,, a totally different meaning being gleaned depending on the mood/interpretation of the translator. So, my response to you, Dr, is, if you truly believe that nothingness is the ultimate, why do you put the title " Dr " in front of your name? Why not go by Anjaneyuyu Nothing? Indeed, with no disrespect intended, I ask you honestly, isn't it a bit of hypocrisy to use a title which sets you just a niche or two above others, while presenting that nothingness, which has no social distinctions, is your belief system? Truly, it may appeal to some (I am not saying anyone in particular, it is a question more than an accusation) that they can hide behind a convenient philosophy of nothingness, which allows no sense of impending guilt if one behaves in a misdirected or selfish, or just plain sinful fashion. But if an individual truly is in touch with Supersoul, I believe that he or she will not accept a translation of the holy scriptures which guides one to nothingness. Because no one can live this path in this life. No one can sit down on the sidewalk, stop eating, drinking, interacting, striving for recognition amongst one's fellow human beings, etc. So, when I hear presentations which are concluding with this idea, my only thought is that it is not an honest path. Those who choose it do not live it. It is virtually impossible in the west, even to remain seated as an Avadhut, such as Rsabhadeva did in the Bhagavatam.....(He lay on the ground, like a python, and if food entered his mouth, He ate....if nothing came to Him, He fasted.....but He also was able to make His stool smell like roses, because He is the Supreme Personality of Godhead incarnated). Anyway, if someone were on such a detached level in this country, he would be subject to being thrown in jail. A truly realized person would not allow himself to be the object of such offensive actions, knowing the offenders would suffer horrible reactions. He would not put himself in such a position.....but in India, certainly one could live in the streets, waiting for whatever mercy of the Lord came to him, and be left alone. Personally, I do not accept that even this conduct, of the avadhut's, is a state of " nothingness " . I have understood from my teachers, and my studying of the Vedas, that those whose activities in this world are minimal, but are either absorbed in chanting the Lord's names, or in trance, are still absorbed within in a realm of total activity, a state of samadhi where the soul has left this encagement and is interacting in a transcendental world, beyond time and space. In this transcendental world, described in the Brahma Samhita, there is no time.Not even the passing of one moment; it remains in the eternal, undivided present. Brahma Samhita gives detailed description of this transcendental world, which is full of Surabhi cows, which fulfill all desires, where unlimited wish-fulfilling trees fulfill any aspiration of the devotee (who's only desires are to continue engaging in loving devotional exchanges with the Lord and other sadhaks) where light is full of knowledge and bliss, and where the supreme spiritual substance which comprises all things is relishable (cintamani). This is a world which is not " nothing " . It may sound like a " fairy tale " to some, but I truly believe that fairies are real. If you or others don't believe in fairies, or in Goloka Vrndavana, which is presented in the Brahma Samhita, then you may have to keep trying to believe in nothing. Personally, I feel that " nothingness " philosophy is a trap, and I pray that any sadhaks reading this kindly bless me that I may have the strength to always resist the temptation of " nothingness " . I feel it is an excuse for giving up loving devotional activites, such as sravanam, kirtanam, visnoh smaranam (hearing, chanting, and remembering the Lord). My respects to all, Mahalaksmi Dasi Respected Dr. Anjaneyulu Goli Jay Shri Krushn Pl. refer to foll. text in your reply. Can you pl. help me to know the source of the same. Our Krishna said 'Jagadavyaktamurtina' I am unmanifest Divinity. 'Naaham Prakasaha' I am not manifest. He is beyond Purusha - NOTHING Jay Shri Krushn Vimal PRIOR POSTING The 'Challenge' is the best question " Pariprasna " . The Answer is - This philosophical precept of 'Nothing' is 'Everything' , beyond the Purusha. The Kathopanishad answers the challenge Beyond the senses are the objects beyond the objects is the mind beyond the mind is the intellect beyond the intellect the great Atman beyond the Atman the unmanifest beyond the unmanifest - the Purusha beyond the Purusha - there is Nothing this is the end, the Supreme goal ---- thus Nothing is Everything, even beyond Purusha. Our Krishna said 'Jagadavyaktamurtina' I am unmanifest Divinity. 'Naaham Prakasaha' I am not manifest. He is beyond Purusha - NOTHING Dr. Anjaneyulu Goli ---------------------------- Dear Mahalakshmi Dasiji, When ever we use the word ' I ' mostly we mean the body or the mind or the intellect. This is because we accept ourselves as one of these. In other words, we identify ourselves as one of these. Rarely do we mean 'Atma' being the ' I '. In that sense, one may say that as distinct from soul ' I ' exists. Having realised God, there is no ' I ' as earlier percieved (Body, Mind or Intellect). Now, the identity of this ' I ' in case of a 'Gyani' merges with the soul. It is like a drop of water is different from the ocean only so far as it has not merged with it. Having fallen in and merging with the ocean, there is no more separate identity of the drop of water. As distict from this, in 'Bhakti', the Bhakta wants to retain his separate identity not as this body, mind or intellect but as 'Sevak' of his God. His identity then changes from his wordly identity to his 'Adhyatmic' identity. I wonder if I have been able to clarify your thoughts. My request to fellow Sadhaks is that instead of answering a question by asking another question or challenging the questioner, it would be better if we think from the point of view of the questioner and appreciate her point of view before we embark upon obsessively answering the question. We will never be able to do justice to the question unless we try to put ourselves into the shoe of the questioner and think from his point of view as to why he may have asked the question. A.H.Dalmia ---------------------------- For directly viewing and realizing this sort of " Nothingness " under discussion, one has to look towards the clear sky with absolutely a vacant look, though at the same time trying to very deeply perceive what is happening there,within minutes it will be seen that there are streams of infinitisimal bubbles which appear from nowhere and disappear to nowhere moving with tremendous speed. What are these bubbles? wherefrom these originate and where do they go? Perhaps they do not at all originate and also do not at all disintegrate. This close and continuous observation may lead to further realization which we go on hunting in our mind for birth after birth to remind at the end " amon manab jonom roilo potit, abad korle folto shona " (such a human birth has been wasted, had it been properly nourished gold could have been ripped). Barin Chatterjee ------------------------------ Dear Sadaks, The conscience level of Ego, desire, Anger etc completely vanishes for a person who meditated/introgated and found that everything around is temporary and that which is Sat- Chit- Anandam is permanent.That person remains silent (even does not meditate) and wittnesses everything around with smile on his face. He has very clearly understood he is not the body but Athuman and NOTHING important to him, even his death. Examples: 1)Jada Bharatha was to beheaded as human sacrifice. Bagavath says-He face became like just bloomed lotus. For him NOTHING matters. 2)Tukaram had vision of Sri Vishnu inviting him to Vaikunt. He had 2 small kids and wife. NOTHING was important to him than Bagavan call. There was no feeling about his family as he knew that his family belongs to Jaganath` s and not his. Total surrender. As long as he was with his family he never failed in his Karma. But when call came from Divineess NOTHING was important to him. 3)Ramana Rishi in Thiruvanaamalai left home at age of 12 reached Arunachalleswarar Temple. NOTHING was important to him other than self realization. 4) Valmiki left his family and sat in meditation. NOTHING was important to him than Rama NAAM. 5) Puranderdoss was a king of himself with 9 Crore wealth at that time and was called Nava Koti Narayanan. A vision of Sri Vishnu made him to leave everything behind and go as Bikshu. NOTHING was important to him, as he knew very well that everything around has to left one day on Anthim Yatra. Why wait till that day, do it today, use the body equipment for realization. He did not know whether he will get next meal. But NOTHING around was important to him. 6) In Neveli near chennai, there lived a person by name Vallalar very recently during British rule. He disappeared in presence of so many Govt official. NOTHING was important to him. 7) Eknath Maharaj used to say that to day is the day for Nama Sankeethan, tomorrow is not in my hands. So there was glory in his face that everyone saw. For him NOTHING was interesting around him. Sadaks might be knowing about a muslim who spitted on Ekanath several time same day but Ekanath did not unter a word, but said it is Bagavan Leela. NOTHING disturbed him or NOTHING was there for him to get angry. There is Paramathuma- Easwar (Shiva)- Brama Lok- Ganderva Lok etc 14 worlds, beyond is Sri Chakra (Refer Sounderiya Lehari) and Vaikunt For an ant the knowledge is limited only to area it lives. So also for ignorant persons. For the realized one knowledge is limitless, he can converse in any language, he sees Bhraman in everything, he undergoes any torcher silently with smile as he knows NOTHING can trouble him. E.g. Prahalad B.Sathyanarayan -------------------------------- PRIOR POSTING Dear Maha Dasi, I am watching you to learn the great qualities in your name as well as your outlook ... You are already there ... that is why you could call yourself as a Dasi (a Maha Dasi for me to practice) ... The Nothing is the state of Bhakti as such ... I know I use this term a lot in my responses ... Your doubt is an excellent since that wields the power of annihilating all other doubts categorically. I will make an attempt to address it in a series of limitted appreciations that I could make on The Avadhuta Gita ... Respects. Naga Narayana -------------------------------- Jai Hanuman Mahalakshmi Mata Jee ! You have ended your question by a challenge ! Unnecessarily !! Hence I must challenge you Jee - necessarily- Jee !!! I challenge you Mahalakshmi Mata Jee to find out(please search, search and search !!! Jee Jee !) and present before sadhaks a single statement made by any sadhak at any point of time where he/she has stated that " soul has no existence " . Sadhaks are not mad and insane people who can write so - none has written so in my view, then what to talk of Sadhaks of this esteemed Gita Talk Group Jee ?? Tamma Bhaiyya (My Dear Brother Naga Narayanaji) once or twice referred regarding " Nothingness " but never with reference to soul/self/Paramatma. Tamma Bhaiyya was 100 percent right there. How can a learned man like Tamma Bhaiyya say " soul/self does not exist? " . From his writings his deep knowledge of Upanishads is abundantly clear Jee! By the way, Jee ! All others except individual soul-self/God are " nothing " Jee!! Jee, My second challenge to you, Mahalakshmi Jee, is to prove that everything except Self/Paramatma is not " nothing " . I say for the first time it is " nothing " . Now I say, Jee, that all balance (except individual soul and God ) including mind, ego, intellect, body, world (inert) is nothing-nothing-nothing Jee. I dare you to prove me wrong. I challenge you on that. Come On ! I wait for your reply. " NASATO VIDYATE BHAVO, NABHAVO VIDYATE SATAH " (Gita 2:16) " The Unreal has no existence and the real never ceases to be; the truth of both these, has been perceived by seers of truth. " (Gita 2:16) Come On ! Let us here from you Jee !! Namaste Jee Jee Jee Shashikala - dear fellow sadhaks namaskaram ., even i was having questions on nothingness , and in due course the answer i got for myself is , our existence is not small , even in nothingness it cannot be expressed as small , EVEN WHEN WE ARE NOTHINGNESS , THAT NOTHINGNESS EXISTS , AND SO EXISTENCE IS ETERNAL AND SO WE ARE ETERNAL INDEED . PRANAMS TO GURUJI. ( kindly forgive if anything is wrong in my quote ) " aravanan karan " Let us put it this way. What shall be nothingness? Let us call it as something akin to the state, devoid of everything. No thing, every thing. I would suggest a perspecrive, which shall say that devoid of all emperical aspects, contents. This could further mean that, devoid of all involvement, or attachement to and of, mundane world, emperical world. In other words, it is a state of complete detachment, and even when one goes on living mundane life, it shall be a life without atttachment, living unattached, as in the case of the 'Jivan Mukta'. Precisely this shall be the concept of a " nishkama karma " . With this, one goes into the state of " Tyena Tyaktena Punjita " also. Adi Sankara also speaks in the same line. Jagat is mithya, illusory, which is so because of changing matter. Buddha says the same too, 'Kshanika Vada'. Now the very property of soul is 'Pure Consciousness' and the idea of pure consciousness is minus and mundane contents. it is a consciousness minus any emperical content. perhaps this could be the state of nothing. Visharad Sharma (deleted some paragraphs, to stay aligned with current discussion - from Gita Talk moderator) -------------------------------- I totally agree with Mahalaxmi Dasi. Every soul is significant. If any one hurts that significane, in the future, he himself have to suffer. This is called ATTITUDE of life - it ought to be POSITIVE. Brahma Mehrotra Let us please stick to Mahalaksmi Dasi ji's Hinduism as below. Nothingness is a Buddhist concept not Hindu, nor it is the illusion philosophy of Adi Shankra, surely. This email thread is about Gita Talk and there is nothing in the Gita about nothingness, rather it is about everything - everything that is glorious and great - but only with a condition for Karma that it is done for God so that the Grace of God would absorb it and make it nothing. This is the HINDU concept and from the beginning of creation per the Hindu scripture we have the same concept, for instance, Lord Shiva absorbed the poison from the ocean churning and so on to save mankind ---- anil bhanot GUIDELINES FOR POSTING A RESPONSE: 1. The group is focused on the Holy Gitaji, therefore, only responses which further clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will be posted. 2. Making reference of Gitaji shloka is highly encouraged - at least once in the response. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to substantiate your response. 3. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting sadhaka's time. Under no circustance the answer should be limited to half a book page, at the most 3-4 paragraphs. 4. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only. 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other organizations (we do not have the bandwidth to review links to determine if content is appropriate for distribution). 7. Complete reproduction of texts from any book is strongly discouraged, however partial cut - paste is acceptable and references may be made of the book or author(but not links to other sites). 8. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone number, address etc. 9. Please use appropriate judgement and only address the response to a particular individual, where it makes sense to do so. 10. Due to the large readership, only those responses will be posted which are in line with the general philosophy of taking Shrimad Bhagavad Gita as the reference. 11. Moderator will reject any content that does not meet guidelines. However, for expediency, moderator at his discretion, may modify / delete portions of the posting for mispelling, wordiness that is irrelevant to the overall core discussion, personal information, opinions / feelings etc. that do not align with guidelines. 12. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use of only Sanskrit words, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit bracketed wherever possible. 13. Any personal remarks over the knowledge of any sadhak or about the stage at which any sadhak is standing in his quest / sadhna / spiritual journey - must not be included in your posting. Also, there should not be any sarcasm towards fellow sadhaks in this spiritual learning and sharing. 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Guest guest Posted September 27, 2008 Report Share Posted September 27, 2008 I have a question, in regards to the goal of meditation, upasanas, etc, being " nothing " . Once a person goes beyond ego, they become completely mindless, egoless, totally insignificant. It is my understanding that the soul has an existence.....an existence means, " I am not nothing " . NOTHINGNESS indicates we have no knowledge, no sense of truth or untruth, no existence. So, why are you trying to give this to others? If you truly believe that YOU ARE NOTHING, then how can you have any truth to convey? Respectfully, Mahalakshmi dasi - NEW POSTING Nothingness is a different expression of everythingness, we can quantify neither. The anxiety expressed here is a projection of anxiety felt from the immanent end to us all, anhilation of the personal I. That the soul has existence is a hope that the individual ego will continue existing in some form or fashion, thereby escaping its ultimate cessation. The important thing here is to practice the meditation protocols regardless of your personal beliefs and understandings and find out for yourself. Isn't that the beauty of Hinduism? To investigate and find out for yourself? Does it really matter if one says nothing (Buddhist) and the other (Vedantist) everything? Who cares what people say? find out for your self. you are so lucky you have been given these tools so you can stop believing and start growing up. Grow up. Further, to say that, mindlessness, egolessness is totally insignificant exposes a gross nonunderstanding of nature of mind, its conscious and unconscious parts and their relationship to ego and self. This can be modelled. If we take the ocean as our model, the individual ego, its expression as I and the conscious mind would be the wave. Different waves different individuals, all linked and connected by the substratum of the ocean, the unconscious or Self, (Atman). Atmanyeva akhilam drishyam . then the self is seen everywhere, Nirmal akasha vat sadaha, as pure sky, eternally Adi Shankara, Atma Bodha you said " NOTHINGNESS indicates we have no knowledge, no sense of truth or untruth, no existence. " Knowledge, nonknowledge, truth and untruth are ultimately relative and rely upon the existence of each other. They are only given value and meaning by the individual ego, the unconscious recognises no such distinction or prejudice. Why should all encompassing nature of being be equated with non existence? It is the non existence of the individual ego. You can read CG Jung. Memories dreams and reflections and other works, His 'Complete Works' of course make very good light bedtime reading and are highly recommended to insomniacs. Thankyou Ravi Bakhsi ----------------------------- My dandavats to all in this forum, A very simple question......in the explanation Naga Narayan has given, the statement is there describing Pravada.... " Pravada is a single-sided instruction from an authority, a Pravadi " . You are asking those of us in this forum not to take the position of " pravadi " . But aren't you yourself doing that in the following statement, " Again, pl. Do not make an attempt to expand this to anything beyond the cognition. We have no business to talk about that and have no rights to display any authority over it. " We are here to learn from one another; hence each one of us at times takes the mood of student, and at other times teacher......it is a forum of respect, but also challenging if anyone sadhak sees a defect in another's presentation. Personally, I will always feel total grief, sadness and a sense of " combatting " , for loss of a better word, if I hear expressions that the goal of our existence is nothing. Simultaneously, I am striving to respect those who have this goal, and present what I have understood to be the truth in a logical, realistic way. I have that right as an individual to feel a sense of defending the Personality of my Supreme Friend. I feel it is what this forum is for, and we should not take the stand of telling others, " Don't comment on this " . To do so is a contradiction to the entire point of your submission. Respectfully, Mahalaksmi Dasi ------------------------- Jai Hanuman This refers to dream seen by Shirley and narrated for deliberations. Shirleyji. Why in dream only.? In day time also we dream only- whenever we use this mechanical animal known as mind - we dream only. Because our mind can only remain in ignorance zone. It can either travel in " past " or in " future " . Both do not exist !! It remains in " nothing only " . In the dream also there was nothing only. In the wakeful state also , we are dreaming only. Time, order and continuity is bit larger and different in waking state. Otherwise character/nature/element/seer/seen/ seeing wise both are exactly same. Mind is perceiving differently because of illusion, darkness and inherent capacity limitations. Does not our childhood today appear to us as a dream? ( If we are no more child. I can't guess. Because Alice in Wonderland is taught and understood at Sr KG level- I really don't know about maturity ) . That Alice is we. That wonderland is this world. So long as we consider this body and this world to be me and mine, such hallucinations are natural and occur at all times- except in deep sleep. There is no difference in " nothingness " prevailing at all times in us. Whether awake or dreaming. Difference is since that night dream has ended, hence we can call that as " dream " and this day time awakened state dreaming is continuing. To come out of this dream- -First let us put our mind , which is suggesting that " I am body " in a deep freezer - not to be used till deliberations are continuing. - Secondly, Let us use " self " . Ever heard this expression " self " ? Tell honestly if not heard. If we know what " Self " is, then use that instead of mind. We will then grasp the discussion and pick gems out of this Satsanga, and " Nothingness " which is around us at present, will immediately become " Everything " . We are already aware about the names " Radha " , " Krishna " etc. Hence it will be fast process. How to put this mind in deep freezer? Feel we are watcher of this mind. A witness. It is easy. Because. We really are that only. See how it changes. If we are able to feel how our mind is changing every fraction of second, we are through. Come back as soon as we reach to that level. Do revert in case of any problem in dealing with mind or using self/conscience or regarding any other perceptions arising out of mind etc. Jee Jee Shashikala ---------------------------- Dear Sadaks, The supreme becomes humble before his Baktha. Beyond Supreme is HIS bakthas. Bagavan has said in BG that HIS baktha and HE are one and the same. So many instances, Bagavan was quiet, inspite of being abused/misused/ robbed off (temple jewellary). But even the smallest affect (hurting, passing comments, causing inconvenience) to HIS true baktha, the punishment is immediate. (will quote, if needed). So Bagavan keeps HIS bakthas a step higher than Himself (Supreme) B.Sathyanarayan ---------------------------- PRIOR POSTING Dandavats.... A light has gone on in my heart!!!! There is a different angle to the explanation of " nothing " beyond Purusha. I did not understand the words previously presented....it is here understood that " nothing " beyond indicates that the Supreme Person is Supreme, there is no more to be said, nothing beyond Him. My gratitude to you, Vyasaji, for getting through this murky intelligence. My apologies for not responding yet to Sashikala's challenge and agree with her presentation that, as per the Bhagavad Gita, the nature of this material world, being ever changing, is certainly on one level considered to be non-existent; however, it is a very delicate topic. If one says it is " nothing " , then there is room for the mind to say, (at least my mind does on occasion) " If it is all nothing, then why do I have to try so hard to be dutiful? " So, I personally do not like to describe the temporary material creation as nothing....I prefer to consider it as a dream.....a dream IS a dream, it may give some insight into a different realm, if in connection with the Absolute.....or it may have no significance.....but still, it IS. So, I am not so quick to describe this temporary manifestation as nothing. I appreciate your time, pointing out that sadhaks are not interested in activities other than devotional service. I pray that I may not be stuck in this dream forever; may all bless me that I may wake up to my true spiritual nature. Dandavats..... Mahalaksmi Dasi -- IN ENGLSIH What you saw was a dream. What you are seeing now in your waking state, is also a dream. Brahm is illusion, you yourself had that dream (unreal), and that this is real. The Alice who was in your dream, that same Alice is now as well. This wonderland itself is this life, this world and this Alice is you. Even in dream it was an illusion and even now too you are in illusion. This is the truth and solid thing. Stop believing this body to be yours. Immediately. You will receive benediction. Or else, this Alice may have to even see horrific dreams. Therefore get out of this illusion. You are already established in illusion right now. Even in dream it is only nothing. You simply don't know. This itself is called Maya. This itself is called ignorance, baseness. (Ramchandra) IN HINDI Shirleyji Jo dekha thaa vah dream tha. Jo jagrat avastha main abhi dekh rahe ho vah bhi in fact dream hi hai. Bhram, illusion hai apko ki vah dream (unreal) tha aur yeh real hai. Jo Alice dream main tha vahi Alice abhi bhi hai. Wonderland yeh sansaar hi hai aur Alice aap hain. Dream main bhi bhram main the, abhibhi aap bhram main hi hain. Pucci baat hai yeh. Sareer ko apna maanana band kar dijiye. Immediately. Apka kalyaan ho jayega. Varana bhayankar dreams bhi is wonderland main Alice ko dekhane pad sakte hain. Bhram se baahar nikaliye, Nothing main hi to aap abhi viraajmaan hain. Dream main bhi nothing main hi the. Maloom nahin hai apko. Isi ko maya kaha jata hai. Yehi moodhata kahlaati hai. (Ramchandra) An ardent appeal to everyone: This form has retained its sanctity by promoting the very meaning of Sadhana in its true sense. I appeal to everyone to treat it the same way. In my opinion, Sadhana should always be focused on one's inherent ignorance and inertia with a sole resolve of reducing the same to eventually remove the same. I am sure all share this view. Unfortunately, we have no way but to communicate within and with the fellow like-minded seekers to achieve the same. Communication is the only way of removal of ignorance as it was gained in the same way. There are three types of communications - Pravada, Vivada and Sumvada. Pravada is a single sided instruction from an authority, a Pravadi. Only an authority such as Lord Krishna can do this. Neither of us can be that. I am sure everyone realizes this. Vivada is all of us are too familiar with. Sticking to what we think we know and to attack anything that seems to disturb it in an effort to safeguard what we think we know. The premise for vivada is to promote one's own ego through information and hence it inevitably provocates and injures others inviting a conflict. Such an act is called " Aatmahatya " - self-slaying act because the very act promotes the very same ego which is the most opaque hurdle in one's spiritual progress. It is verily aatmahatya because the gloating or injured ego will never rest removing any chance for anybody to be oneself, one's most natural state of bliss. We have been accumulating our ignorance in such communications all our lives ... I appeal one should not continue this, at least in the name of Sadhana. Sumvada is the one that is necessary wherein the premise is that I may be necessarily wrong since I am the one who is feeling miserable and that somebody may help me reveal my ignorance for my observation and renunciation. Finding wrong in others can only boost one's ignorance. Respecting contradictory views on the contrary may have a chance break one's opaque shell of ignorance. Open mindedness is a must for spiritual practice in my experience. I appeal to everyone to observe this with an open mind. Please ... let us not sacrilege the sanctity of such a forum ... Coming to " Nothing " , Something " , " Everything " etc. I always treat any term or any concept as one belonging to one's perception only. If somebody declares on The God - The Absolute that is beyond all explanations and hence remains mostly unknown within anybody's perception - in any way, I consider it as a childish prank ... nothing more. The very reason that an unknown is unknown is that I do not know that! When I do not know, how can I ever say that is this or that? be it nothing or everything? be that " it exists " or " it does not exist " . All the Upanishads univocaly try to educate our ego to stop its habit of attempting to bring everything into the realm of its " known " . Therefore, I do not want to attempt to make any statements regarding anything that is not known to me - Soul, Self, God, etc. As everybody in this forum understand, they do not belong to the domain of one's ego or its colleagues mind and body! The idea of Nothing is the nothingness in one's perception ... Yada panchaavatishthante Gnyaanaani manasaa saha | Buddhishcha na vicheshatate taamaahuh paramaam gatim || The answer to a seeker's quest to appreciate THAT, the suggestion is to become nothing within - no images, no pretensions, no tendencies, no emotions, no relations, .... nothing but THAT. THAT remains nothing to one's perception as every unknown is nothing bu the nothing in one's perception. The idea of The Everything is that anything and everything including the nothing is based in THAT which makes everything possible being inherent in everything as THAT which can never be known and hence remain nothing within one's perception. Emptying myself to nothing by vomiting all my filth smeared in my desires, fears and all other emotions rooted in these two is what I mean by becoming The Nothing. Only when all the faculties have stopped their childish pranks of attempting to know anything, one attains THAT ... when all the faculties are paused, what is left in one's cognition? The Nothing. AGAIN, PL. DO NOT MAKE AN ATTEMPT TO EXPAND THIS TO ANYTHING BEYOND THE COGNITION. WE HAVE NO BUSINESS TO TALK ABOUT THAT AND HAVE NO RIGHTS TO DISPLAY ANY AUTHORITY OVER IT. Therefore, any authoritative statement that " THAT exists " is as sacrilegious as the claim that " THAT does not exist " . Existence is another concept confined in our perceptional limit ... then how can that be extended beyond? PLEASE DO NOT MAKE THIS MISTAKE. Andhantamam pravishanti ye asmbhutimupasate - One who rejects the idea of The Supreme as it remains unknown is verily ignorant having no clue of how his belief in his knowledge is misleading him. But at least he has a chance that he may see the limits of his understanding ability one day and leave the unknown alone. Tato bhuaya iva te tamo ye u sambhutyaam rataah - But, one who insists that The Supreme exists is a bigger fool with very little chance to appreciate his limitations because he believes even the unknown is known to him!! THEREFORE, my appeal to all is to not sacrilege the Yagnya that is going on in this auspicious forum ... the only thing that should be sacrificed into this fire is our egos, our ignorance ... NEVER our Shraddha. Vivada directly attacks our collective Shraddha. PLEASE do not entertain vivada. With Deep Respects to all. Naga Narayana. -- PRIOR POSTING Jay Shree Krishna IN ENGLISH I cannot clearly understand everyone's inner sentiments in English. But it appears that from your discussion, it is not going according to the group's intent. Moderator must be careful about this. One must remain alert that without engaging in too much discussion, to grab hold of the essence, and deeply understand it. In Saint's words it is therefore said that " Brother, now leave listening / reading / learning, and instead know, believe and accept it. The thing to know is the world, the thing to believe is God. Beyond those talks a sadhak has not much concern, that who said what? How they said it? Falling into this hassle, a sadhak must remain ever alert not to waste their own time, as well as, other's time. You all are intelligent, and educated.. in few words, one must understand more. Rameshji IN HINDI Mai English me Aap sabke pure bhav samjta nahi hu.Lekin lagta hai ki Aapki charch..es group ke udeshy ke anurup nahi lag rahi hai.Modretor ko yeh khyal rakhna chahiye.Jyada vad-vivad badhakar..sar bat ko grahan karne ke liye sajag rahana chahiye.Sant Vaani me esiliye kaha hoga ki " Bhai Aab sunana-sikhana chhodo...Aur Janana aur Manana swikar kar lo. Janana hai es jagat ke bare me,Manana hai Prabhu ko...jyada bato se sadhak ko matlab nahi ki kisne kya kaha?kaise kaha. Es panchayati me padkar apana aur dusaro ka samy kharab na ho yeh harek sadhak ko savdhani rakhani chahiye.Aap sab samjdar,Padhe- likhe log ho..thode me jyada samaj lena. Rameshji -------------------------------- Hari Om The Kathopanishad state - Chapter 1, Valli 3 , verses 10 and 11 - " There is " nothing " beyond Purusha " . The Upanishads are said to be the summary of Vedas. Shrimad Bhagvad Gita is considered as the " essence " of the Upanishads. Purusha is defined as Paramatma in Gita/Upanishads/Vedas. Purusha is also used for pure soul part in Jeeva. God is also known as Purushottam in Gita.(Gita 15:18). Gita also confirms the same vide Gita 2:16 ,3:42, 9:4, 15:18 and 7:19. (Combined reading) - there may be more verses confirming this.. " Naham prakashah sarvasyam " is in Gita 7:25. Reference reg " avyaktam " is in Gita 9:4 . Refer also " udasinvadasino " term used in BG 14:23 (Like an udasin- when there is nothing except God how can only " udasin " word be used- it has to be " like " an udasin !) This reply is pursuant to Vimalji's query to Dr Goli. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B My dandavats to all in this forum, My sincere apologies to anyone who may have felt my inquiries were out of line in my last posting......I was trying with extreme caution to present my question in a non-personal, general way, but as I am often a tactless person, can understand that I have failed again. My question was meant to highlight the point that if we believe truly that everything is ultimately nothing, (as indicated in this quotation, " --- thus Nothing is Everything, even beyond Purusha. Our Krishna said 'Jagadavyaktamurtin a' I am unmanifest Divinity. 'Naaham Prakasaha' I am not manifest. He is beyond Purusha - NOTHING " I certainly hope that Anjaneyulu Goli felt no offense, indeed, I am certain that he has the depth of understanding to know that he is not the material body, nor any designation applied to it.....hence, I sincerely doubt if he was offended. A man in knowledge is not disturbed by any reference to the body being significant or not. Still, I thank Vyasaji for pointing out to me that I should be more sensitive. My point was not meant to denigrate anyone, so again, if there was appearance of such, my profuse apologies. On the vein of the same discussion, in his presentation the good Dr. has said, final word, " nothing " ....after the statement, " He is beyond Purusha " . Please kindly explain to me, Vyasa, what this means. I have no problem with the point that we are here trying to understand a religious path, how to live life according to Gita, however, you must accept that it disturbs me greatly to have it presented that the Supreme Absolute Truth, Sri Krsna, who has an eternal form composed of bliss and knowledge, who has a home known as Goloka Vrndavan, who is beyond the Purusa, can be equated with nothingness. If you think that perhaps the doctor was offended by referring to him with the title " nothing " , think about how it must hurt the Supreme Person to be thought of as such. Sincerely, with best wishes, Mahalaksmi Dasi Vimalji - Namaste I present the following source you are pleased to know: ' Naaham prakashha ' Gita Ch 7 Sl 25 Veiled by My Yogamaya, I am not manifest to all. Hence these ignorant folk fail to recognise Me, the unborn and imperishable Supreme Deity 'Jagadavyaktamoorthina' Gita Ch 9 Sl 4 The whole of this universe is permeated by Me as unmanifest Divinity, and all beings rest on the idea within Me. Therefore, really speaking, I am not present in them. Anjaneyulu Goli -------------------------------- Dear readers, Well, I am going to add something to this discussion. It is not wrong to share a dream, is it? I can't tell you who I really am, because I don't know who I am....I think I am this body.....but this dream is really interesting. I was in a room with lots of other sadhaks. I like the word devotees. My guru was sitting up front, only I don't think my guru knew about this dream. I think it was Krsna, appearing as guru. Anyway, he asked me, " What is more dangerous, the poison in the hand of the rabbit, or Nothing? " (Krsna knows all about Alice in Wonderland) I replied, quickly, " Why of course, the poison in the hand of the rabbit, because " nothing " does not exist. " The entire room of devotees responded back to me, " No, " Nothing " is more powerful " . I turned to Krsna-disguised-as-guru....and I gave an inquiring look. To which the response came back, " Nothing is more powerful. Because Alice believed in it. " I think Krsna was challenging me.....do I want to believe in " Nothing " ? I can if I want. It is a powerful, powerful state of mind.......I ask myself many times......what could cause me to believe that there is no longer any point to living? What type of offenses would I commit, that my consciousness would lose track of trying to attain a level of purity, lose track of trying to aspire for being Godly, forget about entering into a realm of eternal lila with Sri Sri Radha and Krsna? etc etc. And lose track of all the times I have seen Krsna in my dreams, inviting me to be near to Him? These are questions I ask often. Thank you for listening to me. Sri Radhe Shirley May - It is only our ego which makes us important. Otherwise we are nothing. We are hollow inside. We are nothing and we dissolve into nothingness, when we die.Unless we realise it we will keep on making mistakes, which will result in endless births and deaths. The spiritual path is only to save our souls. Hari Shanker Deo - PRIOR POSTING Hari Om Neither this web site has advocated any " nothingness " nor any " somethingness " nor has any Sadhak talked about any nothingness or any somethingness- without any context.. We are here to discuss about Gita and religious way of living life. It is in my humble view that you have raised a topic out of " nothing " and used that topic for passing improper personal comments upon contributors to the deliberations. This site is definitely not meant for exhibition of such behavior where we can injudiciously call any person to be hypocrite or question as to how he is using title " Dr " before his name or throwing mud at any person's way of living. None is entitled to exhibit such conduct. Dr is part of a name. Does not the other party also has a name after a divine person of Sanatan Dharma? What right then he/she has to use that name? In the recent past also similar absurd, comments were passed even for a Saint of the class of Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj. He was called as a hypocrite, dishonest, false and what not. Due to continued similar conduct, I must state my views. I hope the Moderators will be as kind to me as they were with this particular sadhak- in publishing this note.. Is such conduct proper? Is it fair? If some one does not agree to any view point, he/she has choice /option of humbly disagreeing and withdrawing from deliberations. Which religion or Preceptor teaches us to humiliate in such a brazen manner any contributors ? This has so far been for genuine sadhaks, has it not? Who asked a comparison between two countries? Did the discussion warrant that? It must be understood that such person not only lowers himself/herself before such an elite family type satsanga forum, but he/she also brings to disrepute his/her siksha/ diksha Gurus and the very organisation to which she/he claims to be belonging. One must never forget that if you raise one accusing finger towards any one, 3 fingers of the same hand get directed towards you- automatically. Sanatan Dharma/Vedas never teach such conduct. Dr. Anjaneyulu Goli and Naga Narayanaji are entitled to an apology. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ------------------------------ Dear Sadaks, Putting Dr in front of name is identification of the body. More over Dr means profession not the soul. Sri Krishnah mean anadham. Sri is respect to our Bagavan. Plain Krishna may mean somebody by name Krishna. Dr.Anjeneyalu put Dr prefix before his name by habbit. Dr profession has nothing to do with spritual matters. Dear Sadaks please avoid finding fault with one an another. See Bagavan in everybody. There is NOTHING wrong Right in identification. Bagavan in Geetha says in many places Partha or Arjuna. It is only identification to who Bagavan speaking to. For Bagavan Partha or Duryodana are equal to HIM. B.Sathyanarayan ------------------------------- Narayan Narayan Mateshwari jee IN ENGLISH That which changes, is unreal (non-existent, perishable, moving towards destruction) and That which does not change, is real (existent,imperishable)(Gita 2:16) IN HINDI Jho bhadalta hai uski saata naahi hoti or Jho naahi bhadalta usi ki saata hoti hai(Gita 2:16) (ramchandra) - Dear Sadhaks, I was comtemplating on Vivekachudami of Adi Sankara`s. My friend not intereseted in spiritual matters asked me, " What are you contemplating as you could not recognise my presence " . I said, " NOTHING " . Does it mean real. I was contemplating on SOMETHING. Going beyond conscience level (without Pragniya) is Samadhi state, that which like Sadashiva Bramendral/yogi Raj could do. But these saints came back to normal state after many days. How? They were with Paramatma but though their functioning they were beyond senses. During Maha Pralaya (final destruction) it says everything gets destroyed with souls abiding in Paramatma. Again when creation commences these souls take forms. This is said in Upanishads. So there is NO stage called " Nothing " exists. But the word " nothing " is misunderstood. Nothing more to discuss rather than keep saying " Om Namo Narayana " . B.Sathyanarayan My dandavats to all in this forum, In response to Dr. Anjaneyuyu Goli, I would like to respond from a point of view of one who has certainly studied the Vedas, but not with the ability to translate, or even to know the various different meanings which can be attributed to any given word, which causes the scenario of, depending on who is translating,, a totally different meaning being gleaned depending on the mood/interpretation of the translator. So, my response to you, Dr, is, if you truly believe that nothingness is the ultimate, why do you put the title " Dr " in front of your name? Why not go by Anjaneyuyu Nothing? Indeed, with no disrespect intended, I ask you honestly, isn't it a bit of hypocrisy to use a title which sets you just a niche or two above others, while presenting that nothingness, which has no social distinctions, is your belief system? Truly, it may appeal to some (I am not saying anyone in particular, it is a question more than an accusation) that they can hide behind a convenient philosophy of nothingness, which allows no sense of impending guilt if one behaves in a misdirected or selfish, or just plain sinful fashion. But if an individual truly is in touch with Supersoul, I believe that he or she will not accept a translation of the holy scriptures which guides one to nothingness. Because no one can live this path in this life. No one can sit down on the sidewalk, stop eating, drinking, interacting, striving for recognition amongst one's fellow human beings, etc. So, when I hear presentations which are concluding with this idea, my only thought is that it is not an honest path. Those who choose it do not live it. It is virtually impossible in the west, even to remain seated as an Avadhut, such as Rsabhadeva did in the Bhagavatam.....(He lay on the ground, like a python, and if food entered his mouth, He ate....if nothing came to Him, He fasted.....but He also was able to make His stool smell like roses, because He is the Supreme Personality of Godhead incarnated). Anyway, if someone were on such a detached level in this country, he would be subject to being thrown in jail. A truly realized person would not allow himself to be the object of such offensive actions, knowing the offenders would suffer horrible reactions. He would not put himself in such a position.....but in India, certainly one could live in the streets, waiting for whatever mercy of the Lord came to him, and be left alone. Personally, I do not accept that even this conduct, of the avadhut's, is a state of " nothingness " . I have understood from my teachers, and my studying of the Vedas, that those whose activities in this world are minimal, but are either absorbed in chanting the Lord's names, or in trance, are still absorbed within in a realm of total activity, a state of samadhi where the soul has left this encagement and is interacting in a transcendental world, beyond time and space. In this transcendental world, described in the Brahma Samhita, there is no time.Not even the passing of one moment; it remains in the eternal, undivided present. Brahma Samhita gives detailed description of this transcendental world, which is full of Surabhi cows, which fulfill all desires, where unlimited wish-fulfilling trees fulfill any aspiration of the devotee (who's only desires are to continue engaging in loving devotional exchanges with the Lord and other sadhaks) where light is full of knowledge and bliss, and where the supreme spiritual substance which comprises all things is relishable (cintamani). This is a world which is not " nothing " . It may sound like a " fairy tale " to some, but I truly believe that fairies are real. If you or others don't believe in fairies, or in Goloka Vrndavana, which is presented in the Brahma Samhita, then you may have to keep trying to believe in nothing. Personally, I feel that " nothingness " philosophy is a trap, and I pray that any sadhaks reading this kindly bless me that I may have the strength to always resist the temptation of " nothingness " . I feel it is an excuse for giving up loving devotional activites, such as sravanam, kirtanam, visnoh smaranam (hearing, chanting, and remembering the Lord). My respects to all, Mahalaksmi Dasi Respected Dr. Anjaneyulu Goli Jay Shri Krushn Pl. refer to foll. text in your reply. Can you pl. help me to know the source of the same. Our Krishna said 'Jagadavyaktamurtina' I am unmanifest Divinity. 'Naaham Prakasaha' I am not manifest. He is beyond Purusha - NOTHING Jay Shri Krushn Vimal PRIOR POSTING The 'Challenge' is the best question " Pariprasna " . The Answer is - This philosophical precept of 'Nothing' is 'Everything' , beyond the Purusha. The Kathopanishad answers the challenge Beyond the senses are the objects beyond the objects is the mind beyond the mind is the intellect beyond the intellect the great Atman beyond the Atman the unmanifest beyond the unmanifest - the Purusha beyond the Purusha - there is Nothing this is the end, the Supreme goal ---- thus Nothing is Everything, even beyond Purusha. Our Krishna said 'Jagadavyaktamurtina' I am unmanifest Divinity. 'Naaham Prakasaha' I am not manifest. He is beyond Purusha - NOTHING Dr. Anjaneyulu Goli ---------------------------- Dear Mahalakshmi Dasiji, When ever we use the word ' I ' mostly we mean the body or the mind or the intellect. This is because we accept ourselves as one of these. In other words, we identify ourselves as one of these. Rarely do we mean 'Atma' being the ' I '. In that sense, one may say that as distinct from soul ' I ' exists. Having realised God, there is no ' I ' as earlier percieved (Body, Mind or Intellect). Now, the identity of this ' I ' in case of a 'Gyani' merges with the soul. It is like a drop of water is different from the ocean only so far as it has not merged with it. Having fallen in and merging with the ocean, there is no more separate identity of the drop of water. As distict from this, in 'Bhakti', the Bhakta wants to retain his separate identity not as this body, mind or intellect but as 'Sevak' of his God. His identity then changes from his wordly identity to his 'Adhyatmic' identity. I wonder if I have been able to clarify your thoughts. My request to fellow Sadhaks is that instead of answering a question by asking another question or challenging the questioner, it would be better if we think from the point of view of the questioner and appreciate her point of view before we embark upon obsessively answering the question. We will never be able to do justice to the question unless we try to put ourselves into the shoe of the questioner and think from his point of view as to why he may have asked the question. A.H.Dalmia ---------------------------- For directly viewing and realizing this sort of " Nothingness " under discussion, one has to look towards the clear sky with absolutely a vacant look, though at the same time trying to very deeply perceive what is happening there,within minutes it will be seen that there are streams of infinitisimal bubbles which appear from nowhere and disappear to nowhere moving with tremendous speed. What are these bubbles? wherefrom these originate and where do they go? Perhaps they do not at all originate and also do not at all disintegrate. This close and continuous observation may lead to further realization which we go on hunting in our mind for birth after birth to remind at the end " amon manab jonom roilo potit, abad korle folto shona " (such a human birth has been wasted, had it been properly nourished gold could have been ripped). Barin Chatterjee ------------------------------ Dear Sadaks, The conscience level of Ego, desire, Anger etc completely vanishes for a person who meditated/introgated and found that everything around is temporary and that which is Sat- Chit- Anandam is permanent.That person remains silent (even does not meditate) and wittnesses everything around with smile on his face. He has very clearly understood he is not the body but Athuman and NOTHING important to him, even his death. Examples: 1)Jada Bharatha was to beheaded as human sacrifice. Bagavath says-He face became like just bloomed lotus. For him NOTHING matters. 2)Tukaram had vision of Sri Vishnu inviting him to Vaikunt. He had 2 small kids and wife. NOTHING was important to him than Bagavan call. There was no feeling about his family as he knew that his family belongs to Jaganath` s and not his. Total surrender. As long as he was with his family he never failed in his Karma. But when call came from Divineess NOTHING was important to him. 3)Ramana Rishi in Thiruvanaamalai left home at age of 12 reached Arunachalleswarar Temple. NOTHING was important to him other than self realization. 4) Valmiki left his family and sat in meditation. NOTHING was important to him than Rama NAAM. 5) Puranderdoss was a king of himself with 9 Crore wealth at that time and was called Nava Koti Narayanan. A vision of Sri Vishnu made him to leave everything behind and go as Bikshu. NOTHING was important to him, as he knew very well that everything around has to left one day on Anthim Yatra. Why wait till that day, do it today, use the body equipment for realization. He did not know whether he will get next meal. But NOTHING around was important to him. 6) In Neveli near chennai, there lived a person by name Vallalar very recently during British rule. He disappeared in presence of so many Govt official. NOTHING was important to him. 7) Eknath Maharaj used to say that to day is the day for Nama Sankeethan, tomorrow is not in my hands. So there was glory in his face that everyone saw. For him NOTHING was interesting around him. Sadaks might be knowing about a muslim who spitted on Ekanath several time same day but Ekanath did not unter a word, but said it is Bagavan Leela. NOTHING disturbed him or NOTHING was there for him to get angry. There is Paramathuma- Easwar (Shiva)- Brama Lok- Ganderva Lok etc 14 worlds, beyond is Sri Chakra (Refer Sounderiya Lehari) and Vaikunt For an ant the knowledge is limited only to area it lives. So also for ignorant persons. For the realized one knowledge is limitless, he can converse in any language, he sees Bhraman in everything, he undergoes any torcher silently with smile as he knows NOTHING can trouble him. E.g. Prahalad B.Sathyanarayan -------------------------------- PRIOR POSTING Dear Maha Dasi, I am watching you to learn the great qualities in your name as well as your outlook ... You are already there ... that is why you could call yourself as a Dasi (a Maha Dasi for me to practice) ... The Nothing is the state of Bhakti as such ... I know I use this term a lot in my responses ... Your doubt is an excellent since that wields the power of annihilating all other doubts categorically. I will make an attempt to address it in a series of limitted appreciations that I could make on The Avadhuta Gita ... Respects. Naga Narayana -------------------------------- Jai Hanuman Mahalakshmi Mata Jee ! You have ended your question by a challenge ! Unnecessarily !! Hence I must challenge you Jee - necessarily- Jee !!! I challenge you Mahalakshmi Mata Jee to find out(please search, search and search !!! Jee Jee !) and present before sadhaks a single statement made by any sadhak at any point of time where he/she has stated that " soul has no existence " . Sadhaks are not mad and insane people who can write so - none has written so in my view, then what to talk of Sadhaks of this esteemed Gita Talk Group Jee ?? Tamma Bhaiyya (My Dear Brother Naga Narayanaji) once or twice referred regarding " Nothingness " but never with reference to soul/self/Paramatma. Tamma Bhaiyya was 100 percent right there. How can a learned man like Tamma Bhaiyya say " soul/self does not exist? " . From his writings his deep knowledge of Upanishads is abundantly clear Jee! By the way, Jee ! All others except individual soul-self/God are " nothing " Jee!! Jee, My second challenge to you, Mahalakshmi Jee, is to prove that everything except Self/Paramatma is not " nothing " . I say for the first time it is " nothing " . Now I say, Jee, that all balance (except individual soul and God ) including mind, ego, intellect, body, world (inert) is nothing-nothing-nothing Jee. I dare you to prove me wrong. I challenge you on that. Come On ! I wait for your reply. " NASATO VIDYATE BHAVO, NABHAVO VIDYATE SATAH " (Gita 2:16) " The Unreal has no existence and the real never ceases to be; the truth of both these, has been perceived by seers of truth. " (Gita 2:16) Come On ! Let us here from you Jee !! Namaste Jee Jee Jee Shashikala - dear fellow sadhaks namaskaram ., even i was having questions on nothingness , and in due course the answer i got for myself is , our existence is not small , even in nothingness it cannot be expressed as small , EVEN WHEN WE ARE NOTHINGNESS , THAT NOTHINGNESS EXISTS , AND SO EXISTENCE IS ETERNAL AND SO WE ARE ETERNAL INDEED . PRANAMS TO GURUJI. ( kindly forgive if anything is wrong in my quote ) " aravanan karan " Let us put it this way. What shall be nothingness? Let us call it as something akin to the state, devoid of everything. No thing, every thing. I would suggest a perspecrive, which shall say that devoid of all emperical aspects, contents. This could further mean that, devoid of all involvement, or attachement to and of, mundane world, emperical world. In other words, it is a state of complete detachment, and even when one goes on living mundane life, it shall be a life without atttachment, living unattached, as in the case of the 'Jivan Mukta'. Precisely this shall be the concept of a " nishkama karma " . With this, one goes into the state of " Tyena Tyaktena Punjita " also. Adi Sankara also speaks in the same line. Jagat is mithya, illusory, which is so because of changing matter. Buddha says the same too, 'Kshanika Vada'. Now the very property of soul is 'Pure Consciousness' and the idea of pure consciousness is minus and mundane contents. it is a consciousness minus any emperical content. perhaps this could be the state of nothing. Visharad Sharma (deleted some paragraphs, to stay aligned with current discussion - from Gita Talk moderator) -------------------------------- I totally agree with Mahalaxmi Dasi. Every soul is significant. If any one hurts that significane, in the future, he himself have to suffer. This is called ATTITUDE of life - it ought to be POSITIVE. Brahma Mehrotra Let us please stick to Mahalaksmi Dasi ji's Hinduism as below. Nothingness is a Buddhist concept not Hindu, nor it is the illusion philosophy of Adi Shankra, surely. This email thread is about Gita Talk and there is nothing in the Gita about nothingness, rather it is about everything - everything that is glorious and great - but only with a condition for Karma that it is done for God so that the Grace of God would absorb it and make it nothing. This is the HINDU concept and from the beginning of creation per the Hindu scripture we have the same concept, for instance, Lord Shiva absorbed the poison from the ocean churning and so on to save mankind ---- anil bhanot GUIDELINES FOR POSTING A RESPONSE: 1. The group is focused on the Holy Gitaji, therefore, only responses which further clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will be posted. 2. Making reference of Gitaji shloka is highly encouraged - at least once in the response. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to substantiate your response. 3. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting sadhaka's time. 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Due to the large readership, only those responses will be posted which are in line with the general philosophy of taking Shrimad Bhagavad Gita as the reference. 11. Moderator will reject any content that does not meet guidelines. However, for expediency, moderator at his discretion, may modify / delete portions of the posting for mispelling, wordiness that is irrelevant to the overall core discussion, personal information, opinions / feelings etc. that do not align with guidelines. 12. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use of only Sanskrit words, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit bracketed wherever possible. 13. Any personal remarks over the knowledge of any sadhak or about the stage at which any sadhak is standing in his quest / sadhna / spiritual journey - must not be included in your posting. Also, there should not be any sarcasm towards fellow sadhaks in this spiritual learning and sharing. 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Guest guest Posted September 28, 2008 Report Share Posted September 28, 2008 I have a question, in regards to the goal of meditation, upasanas, etc, being " nothing " . Once a person goes beyond ego, they become completely mindless, egoless, totally insignificant. It is my understanding that the soul has an existence.....an existence means, " I am not nothing " . NOTHINGNESS indicates we have no knowledge, no sense of truth or untruth, no existence. So, why are you trying to give this to others? If you truly believe that YOU ARE NOTHING, then how can you have any truth to convey? Respectfully, Mahalakshmi dasi - NEW POSTING The existence of every individual is relative. If you look at a human being from the plane flying at an altitude of 10,000 feet, the person looks about the size of an ant. If you look from a space shuttle, you cannot locate him even. Similarly, if you elevate yourself to the great heights of philosophy, you will find that you are an insignificant particle of dust. The concept of ego plays a very important part in deciding your importance. If your ego level is high, you consider yourself all important and above everything else in this world. I you shed the ego, you will consider yourself as " nothing " . All said and done, although we consider that we are not the body (Kshetra), but the part of Jeevatman (Kshetraja) present in that body, one cannot afford to neglect the body and invite sickness. A " sound " mind requires a " sound " body to exist and perform meditation. If the body is sick, one cannot concentrate on any topic, including " God " . It happened to me that once when I was hospitalised with a bladder problem and my bladder had to be punctured to get rid of the contents, I kept on telling myself, " This body doesn't belong to me " , and I didn't experience the severity of the pain. Regards K.V. Gopalakrishna ----------------------------- I personally appreciate Dear Dasiji's response revealing a potential arrogance on my side. Thank you very much for your courtesy and concern on your fellow seeker. By the way, I am not surprised to hear about it either … I am quite familiar with that within and often struggle to keep it in its place. The slaps I receive from the fellow seekers are of great assistance in my efforts to pulverize this fellow. Thank you very much. Sincerely, I do not mean any insitentce or compulsion in any of my utterances any time. My experience correlates with the the following that Dasiji has referred to: " The idea of The Everything is that anything and everything including the nothing is based in THAT which makes everything possible being inherent in everything as THAT which can never be known and hence remain nothing within one's perception. Emptying myself to nothing by vomiting all my filth smeared in my desires, fears and all other emotions rooted in these two is what I mean by becoming The Nothing. Only when all the faculties have stopped their childish pranks of attempting to know anything, one attains THAT ... when all the faculties are paused, what is left in one's cognition? The Nothing. AGAIN, PL. DO NOT MAKE AN ATTEMPT TO EXPAND THIS TO ANYTHING BEYOND THE COGNITION. WE HAVE NO BUSINESS TO TALK ABOUT THAT AND HAVE NO RIGHTS TO DISPLAY ANY AUTHORITY OVER IT. " My experience correlates with the above. I get glimpses of The Absolute ONLY WHEN all my claims of ownership in desires, knowledge and actions – Bhoktritva, Gnyatritva and Kartritva – becomes nonexistent, in other words, NOTHING. Yada panchaavatisthante gnyaanaani manasa saha | Buddhishcha na vicheshtate taamaahuh paramaam gatim || Since in my awareness, I cannot achieve it yet … I attempt the above suggested Upasana seriously … to stop all crabbiness I wield amongst the body, senses, mind and intellect to let THAT reveal itself … to empty all my relativities to The Nothing to make myself worthy to receive THE ABSOLUTE. Once the perception looses its pedestal at such a state, all its vocabulary including something, everything, nothing, etc. loose their meaning altogether … anything thought of or uttered or done is too limited to describe The Unlimitted … no need to worry too much on any utterances from that perspective. … yet this is the way I see. Too much importance need not be showered on such opinions. Therefore, I still plead you not to extend my utterances to anything beyond percievable. Though often there may be references to The Absolute here and there, I am calrifying again that " I CANNOT REALLY TALK IN ANY MANNER ON THE GOD OR THE TRUTH OR THE ABSOLUTE OR ANY OTHER TERM THAT MAY BE USED TO REFER TO THE SAME " . May be I should not have used the word " WE " in the original paragraph which might have offended some fellow seekers. Let me repeat it correctly now, " I , AGAIN I, HAVE NO BUSINESS TO TALK ABOUT THE ABSOLUTE AND HAVE NO RIGHTS TO DISPLAY ANY AUTHORITY OVER IT. " If it still sounds " Pravada " to anybody … I apologize … I know only few ways that stem out of my limited experience … I don't know other ways to communicate the same properly. I agree totally, I AM IGNORANT and whatever uttered through me need not be of any significance to any one. One can just drop the unworthy opinion. Therefore, I plead again, " Just drop the unworthy utterances! " Please do not be offended by my ignorance. Thank You. Naga Narayana ------------------------------ -Shree Hari- The word inhalation used by Ravi Bakhsi echoes a term I have used on several threads of this most divine of site. Fana " annihilation " a Sufi term. Vyasji explained recently of how Lord Krishna set about, (these are my words) destroying Arjunas intellectual mind, until of course Arjuna surrendered to the Divine Lord. I did sense this idea when I first read Gitaji, (it was read,I regret in haste ), I felt however an immediate affection for Arjuna, maybe I saw humanity in him, I am not sure. I saw in Krishna that Lord of the Universe I had no name for. (Maybe Logos). Freedom to search for the Divine has no religious/cultural/racial prerequisite and is born within us, we are human, Bhagwan really is at work, rationalization is the opposite to embracing what one finds in the Divine search. I am joyously a 'Child of The Universe', God can touch me in whatever way he deems fit, I am blind to dogmas. The Divine works according to his will not mine or yours. May I say this with absolute certainty, One is never what one thinks one is , the further one enters , 'The Dark Night of The Soul' , the brighter glow the sparks of truth. Never let the ego turn you back. Mahalakshmiji you seem to have fire within your soul, let that fire within illuminate the truth. With Respect and Divine Love, Mike Keenor ------------------------------ Please explain, the Nothing ness between Sun & Earth! Thimaiya Somaiya Pulianda ------------------------------ PRIOR POSTING Nothingness is a different expression of everythingness, we can quantify neither. The anxiety expressed here is a projection of anxiety felt from the immanent end to us all, anhilation of the personal I. That the soul has existence is a hope that the individual ego will continue existing in some form or fashion, thereby escaping its ultimate cessation. The important thing here is to practice the meditation protocols regardless of your personal beliefs and understandings and find out for yourself. Isn't that the beauty of Hinduism? To investigate and find out for yourself? Does it really matter if one says nothing (Buddhist) and the other (Vedantist) everything? Who cares what people say? find out for your self. you are so lucky you have been given these tools so you can stop believing and start growing up. Grow up. Further, to say that, mindlessness, egolessness is totally insignificant exposes a gross nonunderstanding of nature of mind, its conscious and unconscious parts and their relationship to ego and self. This can be modelled. If we take the ocean as our model, the individual ego, its expression as I and the conscious mind would be the wave. Different waves different individuals, all linked and connected by the substratum of the ocean, the unconscious or Self, (Atman). Atmanyeva akhilam drishyam . then the self is seen everywhere, Nirmal akasha vat sadaha, as pure sky, eternally Adi Shankara, Atma Bodha you said " NOTHINGNESS indicates we have no knowledge, no sense of truth or untruth, no existence. " Knowledge, nonknowledge, truth and untruth are ultimately relative and rely upon the existence of each other. They are only given value and meaning by the individual ego, the unconscious recognises no such distinction or prejudice. Why should all encompassing nature of being be equated with non existence? It is the non existence of the individual ego. You can read CG Jung. Memories dreams and reflections and other works, His 'Complete Works' of course make very good light bedtime reading and are highly recommended to insomniacs. Thankyou Ravi Bakhsi ----------------------------- My dandavats to all in this forum, A very simple question......in the explanation Naga Narayan has given, the statement is there describing Pravada.... " Pravada is a single-sided instruction from an authority, a Pravadi " . You are asking those of us in this forum not to take the position of " pravadi " . But aren't you yourself doing that in the following statement, " Again, pl. Do not make an attempt to expand this to anything beyond the cognition. We have no business to talk about that and have no rights to display any authority over it. " We are here to learn from one another; hence each one of us at times takes the mood of student, and at other times teacher......it is a forum of respect, but also challenging if anyone sadhak sees a defect in another's presentation. Personally, I will always feel total grief, sadness and a sense of " combatting " , for loss of a better word, if I hear expressions that the goal of our existence is nothing. Simultaneously, I am striving to respect those who have this goal, and present what I have understood to be the truth in a logical, realistic way. I have that right as an individual to feel a sense of defending the Personality of my Supreme Friend. I feel it is what this forum is for, and we should not take the stand of telling others, " Don't comment on this " . To do so is a contradiction to the entire point of your submission. Respectfully, Mahalaksmi Dasi ------------------------- Jai Hanuman This refers to dream seen by Shirley and narrated for deliberations. Shirleyji. Why in dream only.? In day time also we dream only- whenever we use this mechanical animal known as mind - we dream only. Because our mind can only remain in ignorance zone. It can either travel in " past " or in " future " . Both do not exist !! It remains in " nothing only " . In the dream also there was nothing only. In the wakeful state also , we are dreaming only. Time, order and continuity is bit larger and different in waking state. Otherwise character/nature/element/seer/seen/ seeing wise both are exactly same. Mind is perceiving differently because of illusion, darkness and inherent capacity limitations. Does not our childhood today appear to us as a dream? ( If we are no more child. I can't guess. Because Alice in Wonderland is taught and understood at Sr KG level- I really don't know about maturity ) . That Alice is we. That wonderland is this world. So long as we consider this body and this world to be me and mine, such hallucinations are natural and occur at all times- except in deep sleep. There is no difference in " nothingness " prevailing at all times in us. Whether awake or dreaming. Difference is since that night dream has ended, hence we can call that as " dream " and this day time awakened state dreaming is continuing. To come out of this dream- -First let us put our mind , which is suggesting that " I am body " in a deep freezer - not to be used till deliberations are continuing. - Secondly, Let us use " self " . Ever heard this expression " self " ? Tell honestly if not heard. If we know what " Self " is, then use that instead of mind. We will then grasp the discussion and pick gems out of this Satsanga, and " Nothingness " which is around us at present, will immediately become " Everything " . We are already aware about the names " Radha " , " Krishna " etc. Hence it will be fast process. How to put this mind in deep freezer? Feel we are watcher of this mind. A witness. It is easy. Because. We really are that only. See how it changes. If we are able to feel how our mind is changing every fraction of second, we are through. Come back as soon as we reach to that level. Do revert in case of any problem in dealing with mind or using self/conscience or regarding any other perceptions arising out of mind etc. Jee Jee Shashikala ---------------------------- Dear Sadaks, The supreme becomes humble before his Baktha. Beyond Supreme is HIS bakthas. Bagavan has said in BG that HIS baktha and HE are one and the same. So many instances, Bagavan was quiet, inspite of being abused/misused/ robbed off (temple jewellary). But even the smallest affect (hurting, passing comments, causing inconvenience) to HIS true baktha, the punishment is immediate. (will quote, if needed). So Bagavan keeps HIS bakthas a step higher than Himself (Supreme) B.Sathyanarayan ---------------------------- PRIOR POSTING Dandavats.... A light has gone on in my heart!!!! There is a different angle to the explanation of " nothing " beyond Purusha. I did not understand the words previously presented....it is here understood that " nothing " beyond indicates that the Supreme Person is Supreme, there is no more to be said, nothing beyond Him. My gratitude to you, Vyasaji, for getting through this murky intelligence. My apologies for not responding yet to Sashikala's challenge and agree with her presentation that, as per the Bhagavad Gita, the nature of this material world, being ever changing, is certainly on one level considered to be non-existent; however, it is a very delicate topic. If one says it is " nothing " , then there is room for the mind to say, (at least my mind does on occasion) " If it is all nothing, then why do I have to try so hard to be dutiful? " So, I personally do not like to describe the temporary material creation as nothing....I prefer to consider it as a dream.....a dream IS a dream, it may give some insight into a different realm, if in connection with the Absolute.....or it may have no significance.....but still, it IS. So, I am not so quick to describe this temporary manifestation as nothing. I appreciate your time, pointing out that sadhaks are not interested in activities other than devotional service. I pray that I may not be stuck in this dream forever; may all bless me that I may wake up to my true spiritual nature. Dandavats..... Mahalaksmi Dasi -- IN ENGLSIH What you saw was a dream. What you are seeing now in your waking state, is also a dream. Brahm is illusion, you yourself had that dream (unreal), and that this is real. The Alice who was in your dream, that same Alice is now as well. This wonderland itself is this life, this world and this Alice is you. Even in dream it was an illusion and even now too you are in illusion. This is the truth and solid thing. Stop believing this body to be yours. Immediately. You will receive benediction. Or else, this Alice may have to even see horrific dreams. Therefore get out of this illusion. You are already established in illusion right now. Even in dream it is only nothing. You simply don't know. This itself is called Maya. This itself is called ignorance, baseness. (Ramchandra) IN HINDI Shirleyji Jo dekha thaa vah dream tha. Jo jagrat avastha main abhi dekh rahe ho vah bhi in fact dream hi hai. Bhram, illusion hai apko ki vah dream (unreal) tha aur yeh real hai. Jo Alice dream main tha vahi Alice abhi bhi hai. Wonderland yeh sansaar hi hai aur Alice aap hain. Dream main bhi bhram main the, abhibhi aap bhram main hi hain. Pucci baat hai yeh. Sareer ko apna maanana band kar dijiye. Immediately. Apka kalyaan ho jayega. Varana bhayankar dreams bhi is wonderland main Alice ko dekhane pad sakte hain. Bhram se baahar nikaliye, Nothing main hi to aap abhi viraajmaan hain. Dream main bhi nothing main hi the. Maloom nahin hai apko. Isi ko maya kaha jata hai. Yehi moodhata kahlaati hai. (Ramchandra) An ardent appeal to everyone: This form has retained its sanctity by promoting the very meaning of Sadhana in its true sense. I appeal to everyone to treat it the same way. In my opinion, Sadhana should always be focused on one's inherent ignorance and inertia with a sole resolve of reducing the same to eventually remove the same. I am sure all share this view. Unfortunately, we have no way but to communicate within and with the fellow like-minded seekers to achieve the same. Communication is the only way of removal of ignorance as it was gained in the same way. There are three types of communications - Pravada, Vivada and Sumvada. Pravada is a single sided instruction from an authority, a Pravadi. Only an authority such as Lord Krishna can do this. Neither of us can be that. I am sure everyone realizes this. Vivada is all of us are too familiar with. Sticking to what we think we know and to attack anything that seems to disturb it in an effort to safeguard what we think we know. The premise for vivada is to promote one's own ego through information and hence it inevitably provocates and injures others inviting a conflict. Such an act is called " Aatmahatya " - self-slaying act because the very act promotes the very same ego which is the most opaque hurdle in one's spiritual progress. It is verily aatmahatya because the gloating or injured ego will never rest removing any chance for anybody to be oneself, one's most natural state of bliss. We have been accumulating our ignorance in such communications all our lives ... I appeal one should not continue this, at least in the name of Sadhana. Sumvada is the one that is necessary wherein the premise is that I may be necessarily wrong since I am the one who is feeling miserable and that somebody may help me reveal my ignorance for my observation and renunciation. Finding wrong in others can only boost one's ignorance. Respecting contradictory views on the contrary may have a chance break one's opaque shell of ignorance. Open mindedness is a must for spiritual practice in my experience. I appeal to everyone to observe this with an open mind. Please ... let us not sacrilege the sanctity of such a forum ... Coming to " Nothing " , Something " , " Everything " etc. I always treat any term or any concept as one belonging to one's perception only. If somebody declares on The God - The Absolute that is beyond all explanations and hence remains mostly unknown within anybody's perception - in any way, I consider it as a childish prank ... nothing more. The very reason that an unknown is unknown is that I do not know that! When I do not know, how can I ever say that is this or that? be it nothing or everything? be that " it exists " or " it does not exist " . All the Upanishads univocaly try to educate our ego to stop its habit of attempting to bring everything into the realm of its " known " . Therefore, I do not want to attempt to make any statements regarding anything that is not known to me - Soul, Self, God, etc. As everybody in this forum understand, they do not belong to the domain of one's ego or its colleagues mind and body! The idea of Nothing is the nothingness in one's perception ... Yada panchaavatishthante Gnyaanaani manasaa saha | Buddhishcha na vicheshatate taamaahuh paramaam gatim || The answer to a seeker's quest to appreciate THAT, the suggestion is to become nothing within - no images, no pretensions, no tendencies, no emotions, no relations, .... nothing but THAT. THAT remains nothing to one's perception as every unknown is nothing bu the nothing in one's perception. The idea of The Everything is that anything and everything including the nothing is based in THAT which makes everything possible being inherent in everything as THAT which can never be known and hence remain nothing within one's perception. Emptying myself to nothing by vomiting all my filth smeared in my desires, fears and all other emotions rooted in these two is what I mean by becoming The Nothing. Only when all the faculties have stopped their childish pranks of attempting to know anything, one attains THAT ... when all the faculties are paused, what is left in one's cognition? The Nothing. AGAIN, PL. DO NOT MAKE AN ATTEMPT TO EXPAND THIS TO ANYTHING BEYOND THE COGNITION. WE HAVE NO BUSINESS TO TALK ABOUT THAT AND HAVE NO RIGHTS TO DISPLAY ANY AUTHORITY OVER IT. Therefore, any authoritative statement that " THAT exists " is as sacrilegious as the claim that " THAT does not exist " . Existence is another concept confined in our perceptional limit ... then how can that be extended beyond? PLEASE DO NOT MAKE THIS MISTAKE. Andhantamam pravishanti ye asmbhutimupasate - One who rejects the idea of The Supreme as it remains unknown is verily ignorant having no clue of how his belief in his knowledge is misleading him. But at least he has a chance that he may see the limits of his understanding ability one day and leave the unknown alone. Tato bhuaya iva te tamo ye u sambhutyaam rataah - But, one who insists that The Supreme exists is a bigger fool with very little chance to appreciate his limitations because he believes even the unknown is known to him!! THEREFORE, my appeal to all is to not sacrilege the Yagnya that is going on in this auspicious forum ... the only thing that should be sacrificed into this fire is our egos, our ignorance ... NEVER our Shraddha. Vivada directly attacks our collective Shraddha. PLEASE do not entertain vivada. With Deep Respects to all. Naga Narayana. -- PRIOR POSTING Jay Shree Krishna IN ENGLISH I cannot clearly understand everyone's inner sentiments in English. But it appears that from your discussion, it is not going according to the group's intent. Moderator must be careful about this. One must remain alert that without engaging in too much discussion, to grab hold of the essence, and deeply understand it. In Saint's words it is therefore said that " Brother, now leave listening / reading / learning, and instead know, believe and accept it. The thing to know is the world, the thing to believe is God. Beyond those talks a sadhak has not much concern, that who said what? How they said it? Falling into this hassle, a sadhak must remain ever alert not to waste their own time, as well as, other's time. You all are intelligent, and educated.. in few words, one must understand more. Rameshji IN HINDI Mai English me Aap sabke pure bhav samjta nahi hu.Lekin lagta hai ki Aapki charch..es group ke udeshy ke anurup nahi lag rahi hai.Modretor ko yeh khyal rakhna chahiye.Jyada vad-vivad badhakar..sar bat ko grahan karne ke liye sajag rahana chahiye.Sant Vaani me esiliye kaha hoga ki " Bhai Aab sunana-sikhana chhodo...Aur Janana aur Manana swikar kar lo. Janana hai es jagat ke bare me,Manana hai Prabhu ko...jyada bato se sadhak ko matlab nahi ki kisne kya kaha?kaise kaha. Es panchayati me padkar apana aur dusaro ka samy kharab na ho yeh harek sadhak ko savdhani rakhani chahiye.Aap sab samjdar,Padhe- likhe log ho..thode me jyada samaj lena. Rameshji -------------------------------- Hari Om The Kathopanishad state - Chapter 1, Valli 3 , verses 10 and 11 - " There is " nothing " beyond Purusha " . The Upanishads are said to be the summary of Vedas. Shrimad Bhagvad Gita is considered as the " essence " of the Upanishads. Purusha is defined as Paramatma in Gita/Upanishads/Vedas. Purusha is also used for pure soul part in Jeeva. God is also known as Purushottam in Gita.(Gita 15:18). Gita also confirms the same vide Gita 2:16 ,3:42, 9:4, 15:18 and 7:19. (Combined reading) - there may be more verses confirming this.. " Naham prakashah sarvasyam " is in Gita 7:25. Reference reg " avyaktam " is in Gita 9:4 . Refer also " udasinvadasino " term used in BG 14:23 (Like an udasin- when there is nothing except God how can only " udasin " word be used- it has to be " like " an udasin !) This reply is pursuant to Vimalji's query to Dr Goli. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B My dandavats to all in this forum, My sincere apologies to anyone who may have felt my inquiries were out of line in my last posting......I was trying with extreme caution to present my question in a non-personal, general way, but as I am often a tactless person, can understand that I have failed again. My question was meant to highlight the point that if we believe truly that everything is ultimately nothing, (as indicated in this quotation, " --- thus Nothing is Everything, even beyond Purusha. Our Krishna said 'Jagadavyaktamurtin a' I am unmanifest Divinity. 'Naaham Prakasaha' I am not manifest. He is beyond Purusha - NOTHING " I certainly hope that Anjaneyulu Goli felt no offense, indeed, I am certain that he has the depth of understanding to know that he is not the material body, nor any designation applied to it.....hence, I sincerely doubt if he was offended. A man in knowledge is not disturbed by any reference to the body being significant or not. Still, I thank Vyasaji for pointing out to me that I should be more sensitive. My point was not meant to denigrate anyone, so again, if there was appearance of such, my profuse apologies. On the vein of the same discussion, in his presentation the good Dr. has said, final word, " nothing " ....after the statement, " He is beyond Purusha " . Please kindly explain to me, Vyasa, what this means. I have no problem with the point that we are here trying to understand a religious path, how to live life according to Gita, however, you must accept that it disturbs me greatly to have it presented that the Supreme Absolute Truth, Sri Krsna, who has an eternal form composed of bliss and knowledge, who has a home known as Goloka Vrndavan, who is beyond the Purusa, can be equated with nothingness. If you think that perhaps the doctor was offended by referring to him with the title " nothing " , think about how it must hurt the Supreme Person to be thought of as such. Sincerely, with best wishes, Mahalaksmi Dasi Vimalji - Namaste I present the following source you are pleased to know: ' Naaham prakashha ' Gita Ch 7 Sl 25 Veiled by My Yogamaya, I am not manifest to all. Hence these ignorant folk fail to recognise Me, the unborn and imperishable Supreme Deity 'Jagadavyaktamoorthina' Gita Ch 9 Sl 4 The whole of this universe is permeated by Me as unmanifest Divinity, and all beings rest on the idea within Me. Therefore, really speaking, I am not present in them. Anjaneyulu Goli -------------------------------- Dear readers, Well, I am going to add something to this discussion. It is not wrong to share a dream, is it? I can't tell you who I really am, because I don't know who I am....I think I am this body.....but this dream is really interesting. I was in a room with lots of other sadhaks. I like the word devotees. My guru was sitting up front, only I don't think my guru knew about this dream. I think it was Krsna, appearing as guru. Anyway, he asked me, " What is more dangerous, the poison in the hand of the rabbit, or Nothing? " (Krsna knows all about Alice in Wonderland) I replied, quickly, " Why of course, the poison in the hand of the rabbit, because " nothing " does not exist. " The entire room of devotees responded back to me, " No, " Nothing " is more powerful " . I turned to Krsna-disguised-as-guru....and I gave an inquiring look. To which the response came back, " Nothing is more powerful. Because Alice believed in it. " I think Krsna was challenging me.....do I want to believe in " Nothing " ? I can if I want. It is a powerful, powerful state of mind.......I ask myself many times......what could cause me to believe that there is no longer any point to living? What type of offenses would I commit, that my consciousness would lose track of trying to attain a level of purity, lose track of trying to aspire for being Godly, forget about entering into a realm of eternal lila with Sri Sri Radha and Krsna? etc etc. And lose track of all the times I have seen Krsna in my dreams, inviting me to be near to Him? These are questions I ask often. Thank you for listening to me. Sri Radhe Shirley May - It is only our ego which makes us important. Otherwise we are nothing. We are hollow inside. We are nothing and we dissolve into nothingness, when we die.Unless we realise it we will keep on making mistakes, which will result in endless births and deaths. The spiritual path is only to save our souls. Hari Shanker Deo - PRIOR POSTING Hari Om Neither this web site has advocated any " nothingness " nor any " somethingness " nor has any Sadhak talked about any nothingness or any somethingness- without any context.. We are here to discuss about Gita and religious way of living life. It is in my humble view that you have raised a topic out of " nothing " and used that topic for passing improper personal comments upon contributors to the deliberations. This site is definitely not meant for exhibition of such behavior where we can injudiciously call any person to be hypocrite or question as to how he is using title " Dr " before his name or throwing mud at any person's way of living. None is entitled to exhibit such conduct. Dr is part of a name. Does not the other party also has a name after a divine person of Sanatan Dharma? What right then he/she has to use that name? In the recent past also similar absurd, comments were passed even for a Saint of the class of Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj. He was called as a hypocrite, dishonest, false and what not. Due to continued similar conduct, I must state my views. I hope the Moderators will be as kind to me as they were with this particular sadhak- in publishing this note.. Is such conduct proper? Is it fair? If some one does not agree to any view point, he/she has choice /option of humbly disagreeing and withdrawing from deliberations. Which religion or Preceptor teaches us to humiliate in such a brazen manner any contributors ? This has so far been for genuine sadhaks, has it not? Who asked a comparison between two countries? Did the discussion warrant that? It must be understood that such person not only lowers himself/herself before such an elite family type satsanga forum, but he/she also brings to disrepute his/her siksha/ diksha Gurus and the very organisation to which she/he claims to be belonging. One must never forget that if you raise one accusing finger towards any one, 3 fingers of the same hand get directed towards you- automatically. Sanatan Dharma/Vedas never teach such conduct. Dr. Anjaneyulu Goli and Naga Narayanaji are entitled to an apology. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ------------------------------ Dear Sadaks, Putting Dr in front of name is identification of the body. More over Dr means profession not the soul. Sri Krishnah mean anadham. Sri is respect to our Bagavan. Plain Krishna may mean somebody by name Krishna. Dr.Anjeneyalu put Dr prefix before his name by habbit. Dr profession has nothing to do with spritual matters. Dear Sadaks please avoid finding fault with one an another. See Bagavan in everybody. There is NOTHING wrong Right in identification. Bagavan in Geetha says in many places Partha or Arjuna. It is only identification to who Bagavan speaking to. For Bagavan Partha or Duryodana are equal to HIM. B.Sathyanarayan ------------------------------- Narayan Narayan Mateshwari jee IN ENGLISH That which changes, is unreal (non-existent, perishable, moving towards destruction) and That which does not change, is real (existent,imperishable)(Gita 2:16) IN HINDI Jho bhadalta hai uski saata naahi hoti or Jho naahi bhadalta usi ki saata hoti hai(Gita 2:16) (ramchandra) - Dear Sadhaks, I was comtemplating on Vivekachudami of Adi Sankara`s. My friend not intereseted in spiritual matters asked me, " What are you contemplating as you could not recognise my presence " . I said, " NOTHING " . Does it mean real. I was contemplating on SOMETHING. Going beyond conscience level (without Pragniya) is Samadhi state, that which like Sadashiva Bramendral/yogi Raj could do. But these saints came back to normal state after many days. How? They were with Paramatma but though their functioning they were beyond senses. During Maha Pralaya (final destruction) it says everything gets destroyed with souls abiding in Paramatma. Again when creation commences these souls take forms. This is said in Upanishads. So there is NO stage called " Nothing " exists. But the word " nothing " is misunderstood. Nothing more to discuss rather than keep saying " Om Namo Narayana " . B.Sathyanarayan My dandavats to all in this forum, In response to Dr. Anjaneyuyu Goli, I would like to respond from a point of view of one who has certainly studied the Vedas, but not with the ability to translate, or even to know the various different meanings which can be attributed to any given word, which causes the scenario of, depending on who is translating,, a totally different meaning being gleaned depending on the mood/interpretation of the translator. So, my response to you, Dr, is, if you truly believe that nothingness is the ultimate, why do you put the title " Dr " in front of your name? Why not go by Anjaneyuyu Nothing? Indeed, with no disrespect intended, I ask you honestly, isn't it a bit of hypocrisy to use a title which sets you just a niche or two above others, while presenting that nothingness, which has no social distinctions, is your belief system? Truly, it may appeal to some (I am not saying anyone in particular, it is a question more than an accusation) that they can hide behind a convenient philosophy of nothingness, which allows no sense of impending guilt if one behaves in a misdirected or selfish, or just plain sinful fashion. But if an individual truly is in touch with Supersoul, I believe that he or she will not accept a translation of the holy scriptures which guides one to nothingness. Because no one can live this path in this life. No one can sit down on the sidewalk, stop eating, drinking, interacting, striving for recognition amongst one's fellow human beings, etc. So, when I hear presentations which are concluding with this idea, my only thought is that it is not an honest path. Those who choose it do not live it. It is virtually impossible in the west, even to remain seated as an Avadhut, such as Rsabhadeva did in the Bhagavatam.....(He lay on the ground, like a python, and if food entered his mouth, He ate....if nothing came to Him, He fasted.....but He also was able to make His stool smell like roses, because He is the Supreme Personality of Godhead incarnated). Anyway, if someone were on such a detached level in this country, he would be subject to being thrown in jail. A truly realized person would not allow himself to be the object of such offensive actions, knowing the offenders would suffer horrible reactions. He would not put himself in such a position.....but in India, certainly one could live in the streets, waiting for whatever mercy of the Lord came to him, and be left alone. Personally, I do not accept that even this conduct, of the avadhut's, is a state of " nothingness " . I have understood from my teachers, and my studying of the Vedas, that those whose activities in this world are minimal, but are either absorbed in chanting the Lord's names, or in trance, are still absorbed within in a realm of total activity, a state of samadhi where the soul has left this encagement and is interacting in a transcendental world, beyond time and space. In this transcendental world, described in the Brahma Samhita, there is no time.Not even the passing of one moment; it remains in the eternal, undivided present. Brahma Samhita gives detailed description of this transcendental world, which is full of Surabhi cows, which fulfill all desires, where unlimited wish-fulfilling trees fulfill any aspiration of the devotee (who's only desires are to continue engaging in loving devotional exchanges with the Lord and other sadhaks) where light is full of knowledge and bliss, and where the supreme spiritual substance which comprises all things is relishable (cintamani). This is a world which is not " nothing " . It may sound like a " fairy tale " to some, but I truly believe that fairies are real. If you or others don't believe in fairies, or in Goloka Vrndavana, which is presented in the Brahma Samhita, then you may have to keep trying to believe in nothing. Personally, I feel that " nothingness " philosophy is a trap, and I pray that any sadhaks reading this kindly bless me that I may have the strength to always resist the temptation of " nothingness " . I feel it is an excuse for giving up loving devotional activites, such as sravanam, kirtanam, visnoh smaranam (hearing, chanting, and remembering the Lord). My respects to all, Mahalaksmi Dasi Respected Dr. Anjaneyulu Goli Jay Shri Krushn Pl. refer to foll. text in your reply. Can you pl. help me to know the source of the same. Our Krishna said 'Jagadavyaktamurtina' I am unmanifest Divinity. 'Naaham Prakasaha' I am not manifest. He is beyond Purusha - NOTHING Jay Shri Krushn Vimal PRIOR POSTING The 'Challenge' is the best question " Pariprasna " . The Answer is - This philosophical precept of 'Nothing' is 'Everything' , beyond the Purusha. The Kathopanishad answers the challenge Beyond the senses are the objects beyond the objects is the mind beyond the mind is the intellect beyond the intellect the great Atman beyond the Atman the unmanifest beyond the unmanifest - the Purusha beyond the Purusha - there is Nothing this is the end, the Supreme goal ---- thus Nothing is Everything, even beyond Purusha. Our Krishna said 'Jagadavyaktamurtina' I am unmanifest Divinity. 'Naaham Prakasaha' I am not manifest. He is beyond Purusha - NOTHING Dr. Anjaneyulu Goli ---------------------------- Dear Mahalakshmi Dasiji, When ever we use the word ' I ' mostly we mean the body or the mind or the intellect. This is because we accept ourselves as one of these. In other words, we identify ourselves as one of these. Rarely do we mean 'Atma' being the ' I '. In that sense, one may say that as distinct from soul ' I ' exists. Having realised God, there is no ' I ' as earlier percieved (Body, Mind or Intellect). Now, the identity of this ' I ' in case of a 'Gyani' merges with the soul. It is like a drop of water is different from the ocean only so far as it has not merged with it. Having fallen in and merging with the ocean, there is no more separate identity of the drop of water. As distict from this, in 'Bhakti', the Bhakta wants to retain his separate identity not as this body, mind or intellect but as 'Sevak' of his God. His identity then changes from his wordly identity to his 'Adhyatmic' identity. I wonder if I have been able to clarify your thoughts. My request to fellow Sadhaks is that instead of answering a question by asking another question or challenging the questioner, it would be better if we think from the point of view of the questioner and appreciate her point of view before we embark upon obsessively answering the question. We will never be able to do justice to the question unless we try to put ourselves into the shoe of the questioner and think from his point of view as to why he may have asked the question. A.H.Dalmia ---------------------------- For directly viewing and realizing this sort of " Nothingness " under discussion, one has to look towards the clear sky with absolutely a vacant look, though at the same time trying to very deeply perceive what is happening there,within minutes it will be seen that there are streams of infinitisimal bubbles which appear from nowhere and disappear to nowhere moving with tremendous speed. What are these bubbles? wherefrom these originate and where do they go? Perhaps they do not at all originate and also do not at all disintegrate. This close and continuous observation may lead to further realization which we go on hunting in our mind for birth after birth to remind at the end " amon manab jonom roilo potit, abad korle folto shona " (such a human birth has been wasted, had it been properly nourished gold could have been ripped). Barin Chatterjee ------------------------------ Dear Sadaks, The conscience level of Ego, desire, Anger etc completely vanishes for a person who meditated/introgated and found that everything around is temporary and that which is Sat- Chit- Anandam is permanent.That person remains silent (even does not meditate) and wittnesses everything around with smile on his face. He has very clearly understood he is not the body but Athuman and NOTHING important to him, even his death. Examples: 1)Jada Bharatha was to beheaded as human sacrifice. Bagavath says-He face became like just bloomed lotus. For him NOTHING matters. 2)Tukaram had vision of Sri Vishnu inviting him to Vaikunt. He had 2 small kids and wife. NOTHING was important to him than Bagavan call. There was no feeling about his family as he knew that his family belongs to Jaganath` s and not his. Total surrender. As long as he was with his family he never failed in his Karma. But when call came from Divineess NOTHING was important to him. 3)Ramana Rishi in Thiruvanaamalai left home at age of 12 reached Arunachalleswarar Temple. NOTHING was important to him other than self realization. 4) Valmiki left his family and sat in meditation. NOTHING was important to him than Rama NAAM. 5) Puranderdoss was a king of himself with 9 Crore wealth at that time and was called Nava Koti Narayanan. A vision of Sri Vishnu made him to leave everything behind and go as Bikshu. NOTHING was important to him, as he knew very well that everything around has to left one day on Anthim Yatra. Why wait till that day, do it today, use the body equipment for realization. He did not know whether he will get next meal. But NOTHING around was important to him. 6) In Neveli near chennai, there lived a person by name Vallalar very recently during British rule. He disappeared in presence of so many Govt official. NOTHING was important to him. 7) Eknath Maharaj used to say that to day is the day for Nama Sankeethan, tomorrow is not in my hands. So there was glory in his face that everyone saw. For him NOTHING was interesting around him. Sadaks might be knowing about a muslim who spitted on Ekanath several time same day but Ekanath did not unter a word, but said it is Bagavan Leela. NOTHING disturbed him or NOTHING was there for him to get angry. There is Paramathuma- Easwar (Shiva)- Brama Lok- Ganderva Lok etc 14 worlds, beyond is Sri Chakra (Refer Sounderiya Lehari) and Vaikunt For an ant the knowledge is limited only to area it lives. So also for ignorant persons. For the realized one knowledge is limitless, he can converse in any language, he sees Bhraman in everything, he undergoes any torcher silently with smile as he knows NOTHING can trouble him. E.g. Prahalad B.Sathyanarayan -------------------------------- PRIOR POSTING Dear Maha Dasi, I am watching you to learn the great qualities in your name as well as your outlook ... You are already there ... that is why you could call yourself as a Dasi (a Maha Dasi for me to practice) ... The Nothing is the state of Bhakti as such ... I know I use this term a lot in my responses ... Your doubt is an excellent since that wields the power of annihilating all other doubts categorically. I will make an attempt to address it in a series of limitted appreciations that I could make on The Avadhuta Gita ... Respects. Naga Narayana -------------------------------- Jai Hanuman Mahalakshmi Mata Jee ! You have ended your question by a challenge ! Unnecessarily !! Hence I must challenge you Jee - necessarily- Jee !!! I challenge you Mahalakshmi Mata Jee to find out(please search, search and search !!! Jee Jee !) and present before sadhaks a single statement made by any sadhak at any point of time where he/she has stated that " soul has no existence " . Sadhaks are not mad and insane people who can write so - none has written so in my view, then what to talk of Sadhaks of this esteemed Gita Talk Group Jee ?? Tamma Bhaiyya (My Dear Brother Naga Narayanaji) once or twice referred regarding " Nothingness " but never with reference to soul/self/Paramatma. Tamma Bhaiyya was 100 percent right there. How can a learned man like Tamma Bhaiyya say " soul/self does not exist? " . From his writings his deep knowledge of Upanishads is abundantly clear Jee! By the way, Jee ! All others except individual soul-self/God are " nothing " Jee!! Jee, My second challenge to you, Mahalakshmi Jee, is to prove that everything except Self/Paramatma is not " nothing " . I say for the first time it is " nothing " . Now I say, Jee, that all balance (except individual soul and God ) including mind, ego, intellect, body, world (inert) is nothing-nothing-nothing Jee. I dare you to prove me wrong. I challenge you on that. Come On ! I wait for your reply. " NASATO VIDYATE BHAVO, NABHAVO VIDYATE SATAH " (Gita 2:16) " The Unreal has no existence and the real never ceases to be; the truth of both these, has been perceived by seers of truth. " (Gita 2:16) Come On ! Let us here from you Jee !! Namaste Jee Jee Jee Shashikala - dear fellow sadhaks namaskaram ., even i was having questions on nothingness , and in due course the answer i got for myself is , our existence is not small , even in nothingness it cannot be expressed as small , EVEN WHEN WE ARE NOTHINGNESS , THAT NOTHINGNESS EXISTS , AND SO EXISTENCE IS ETERNAL AND SO WE ARE ETERNAL INDEED . PRANAMS TO GURUJI. ( kindly forgive if anything is wrong in my quote ) " aravanan karan " Let us put it this way. What shall be nothingness? Let us call it as something akin to the state, devoid of everything. No thing, every thing. I would suggest a perspecrive, which shall say that devoid of all emperical aspects, contents. This could further mean that, devoid of all involvement, or attachement to and of, mundane world, emperical world. In other words, it is a state of complete detachment, and even when one goes on living mundane life, it shall be a life without atttachment, living unattached, as in the case of the 'Jivan Mukta'. Precisely this shall be the concept of a " nishkama karma " . With this, one goes into the state of " Tyena Tyaktena Punjita " also. Adi Sankara also speaks in the same line. Jagat is mithya, illusory, which is so because of changing matter. Buddha says the same too, 'Kshanika Vada'. Now the very property of soul is 'Pure Consciousness' and the idea of pure consciousness is minus and mundane contents. it is a consciousness minus any emperical content. perhaps this could be the state of nothing. Visharad Sharma (deleted some paragraphs, to stay aligned with current discussion - from Gita Talk moderator) -------------------------------- I totally agree with Mahalaxmi Dasi. Every soul is significant. If any one hurts that significane, in the future, he himself have to suffer. This is called ATTITUDE of life - it ought to be POSITIVE. Brahma Mehrotra Let us please stick to Mahalaksmi Dasi ji's Hinduism as below. Nothingness is a Buddhist concept not Hindu, nor it is the illusion philosophy of Adi Shankra, surely. This email thread is about Gita Talk and there is nothing in the Gita about nothingness, rather it is about everything - everything that is glorious and great - but only with a condition for Karma that it is done for God so that the Grace of God would absorb it and make it nothing. This is the HINDU concept and from the beginning of creation per the Hindu scripture we have the same concept, for instance, Lord Shiva absorbed the poison from the ocean churning and so on to save mankind ---- anil bhanot GUIDELINES FOR POSTING A RESPONSE: 1. The group is focused on the Holy Gitaji, therefore, only responses which further clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will be posted. 2. Making reference of Gitaji shloka is highly encouraged - at least once in the response. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to substantiate your response. 3. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting sadhaka's time. 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Due to the large readership, only those responses will be posted which are in line with the general philosophy of taking Shrimad Bhagavad Gita as the reference. 11. Moderator will reject any content that does not meet guidelines. However, for expediency, moderator at his discretion, may modify / delete portions of the posting for mispelling, wordiness that is irrelevant to the overall core discussion, personal information, opinions / feelings etc. that do not align with guidelines. 12. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use of only Sanskrit words, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit bracketed wherever possible. 13. Any personal remarks over the knowledge of any sadhak or about the stage at which any sadhak is standing in his quest / sadhna / spiritual journey - must not be included in your posting. Also, there should not be any sarcasm towards fellow sadhaks in this spiritual learning and sharing. 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Guest guest Posted September 29, 2008 Report Share Posted September 29, 2008 I have a question, in regards to the goal of meditation, upasanas, etc, being " nothing " . Once a person goes beyond ego, they become completely mindless, egoless, totally insignificant. It is my understanding that the soul has an existence.....an existence means, " I am not nothing " . NOTHINGNESS indicates we have no knowledge, no sense of truth or untruth, no existence. So, why are you trying to give this to others? If you truly believe that YOU ARE NOTHING, then how can you have any truth to convey? Respectfully, Mahalakshmi dasi - NEW POSTING Hari Om Sure ! O Joyous Child of Universe ! But God will touch you not of His will or in His way but in accordance with your will and in that way which you like. That is His promise made in Gita. That shape which is so familiar to you , which takes shape in meditation - He, according to Gita, is most likely to manifest in that form only. Just start decorating that shape. Just keep perfecting as a sculptor gives finishing touches to his creation. Fill in colours as a painter does. Make up the shape as precise as you want it to be. Search every nook and corner of that shape so that you may make it the most perfect .Those eyes. That smile on the lips. That flute. Peacock feather? Behind a cow . Just keep sculpting and get immersed in imparting Him the perfection. He is bound to appear the way you want. There is also bliss in wait than in union. In disconnection with Him also there is connection. Where is disconnection , in fact? The moment you disconnect from " nothing " , you realise eternal connection with " the only thing " which exists. Nothing in fact exists except Him. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ------------------------ IN ENGLISH Jai Shree Krishna he who understands the importance of time (as stated by Swamiji in today's sadhak posting), he who understand God's immense grace, he who is alert and willing and brave to accept good points, will he ever tell God, that you make me to attain salvation? will he continue to waste his time in attainment of perishable things ? And even if he does, for how long will he continue to do so? Has some limit been set? How much of our life has gone by? Will he be happy on celebrating his birthday? or will be be sad and cry that Oh Lord, how much have to graced me already. And where am I going? This discussion on " nothingness " it is my belief that for our own upliftment and benediction, we think about our own issues and ask our selves, are we discussing as " siddha " (perfected one) or as a " sadhak " (spiritual aspirant). Prabhu (God) is Existence, Consciousness and Bliss, and what we know about Him, He is beyond all that. Swamiji has explained this in a write up in Sadhan, Sudhaa, Sindhu... it is title " Varnatit ka Varnan " (Description of the Undescribable). May All be Happy !!! Rameshji IN HINDI Jay Shree Krishna Jo samay ki mahatta janta hai, Prabhu ki ahaituki kripa ho janta hai...savdhan aur sachhi bat svikar karneki himmat rakhanevala kya vah kabhi Prabhu ko kahega ki prabhu mere kalyan kar do?? kya vah Aapna samay naswar samgri ki prapti me lagata rahega?? Aur yadi lagata hai to bhi kab-tak lagayega?? koi limit bana rakhi hai?? Aapni kitani umar nikal gai?? kya vah aapna Janmadin manakar khush hoga?? ki dukhi hokar royega ki Prabhu kitani kripa kar rahe hai? Aur mai kanha jaa raha hu??? Aap logo ko charcha mai english nahi janta hone se purnatah samaj nahi sakta hu . Jo notingness ki charcha ho rahi hai, us vishay me mera manana hai ki hamare hit ke liye yahi jyada labhkar hoga ki ham aapni samsya ke bare me vichar kare.ham kanhi SIDHHA hoke charcha kar rahe hai ki SADHAK ho ke?Prabhu sat-chit -Aanad rup hai aur unke bare me ham jitna jante-mante hai unse bhi pare hai.Swamiji ka ek lekh SAdhan Sudh Sindhu me hai 'Varnatit ka Varnan'. Sarve bhavtuh Sukhinah..... Rameshji -------------------------------- There are two things to understand. 1. individual (God says I become many from ONE. Ekoham bahusyam) 2. individuality (Personal Ego) For all kinds of actions individual has to keep individuality in mind. Then how can Nothingness (Egoless) indicates we have no knowledge, no sense of truth or untruth, no existence. Coz individual is essence (ANSH) of individuality, the gods will. That makes things straight. Thanx Raja Gurdasani ------------------------------- My dandavats to all in this forum.... I would like to express deep appreciation for the recent submission of Naga Narayana....each and every one of us can only express/relate/describe according to our experiences and understanding. We cannot do any more. I appreciate your accepting my point of correction; may I be so bold and arrogant as to articulate a furthur elaboration of why it is that I cannot tolerate nothingness as attributed to the Absolute Person. I saw Him in a dream, ONCE, only once, after I had burned some stories I had written, which were based on some very traumatic events in my life, after a visit to India, in the year 2000. In the dream, that Supreme Person stood before me, with a mask on His face, the type the ancient Greeks would wear in their dramas.....and then removed the mask. Underneath, He, was completely burnt. It wasn't until three or four days later that I made the connection, of His being burnt having anything to do with my stories I had burned. But regardless of my offense, of my cruelty, of my ignorance......He made it very clear to me that He is a Person. He very much had a form of a male human being, clothed, with hands, feet, eyes, mouth.... a Person. Though my heart aches that He would have felt the need to show Himself in a manifestation of being burnt. Based on my personal experience, I am without doubt completely unable to ever tolerate hearing Him refered to as " nothing " . My experience says - He is everything in existence.......He is everyone....simulteneously, He is separate from us all. Sincerely, Mahalaksmi Dasi -------------------------------- The existence of every individual is relative. If you look at a human being from the plane flying at an altitude of 10,000 feet, the person looks about the size of an ant. If you look from a space shuttle, you cannot locate him even. Similarly, if you elevate yourself to the great heights of philosophy, you will find that you are an insignificant particle of dust. The concept of ego plays a very important part in deciding your importance. If your ego level is high, you consider yourself all important and above everything else in this world. I you shed the ego, you will consider yourself as " nothing " . All said and done, although we consider that we are not the body (Kshetra), but the part of Jeevatman (Kshetraja) present in that body, one cannot afford to neglect the body and invite sickness. A " sound " mind requires a " sound " body to exist and perform meditation. If the body is sick, one cannot concentrate on any topic, including " God " . It happened to me that once when I was hospitalised with a bladder problem and my bladder had to be punctured to get rid of the contents, I kept on telling myself, " This body doesn't belong to me " , and I didn't experience the severity of the pain. Regards K.V. Gopalakrishna ----------------------------- I personally appreciate Dear Dasiji's response revealing a potential arrogance on my side. Thank you very much for your courtesy and concern on your fellow seeker. By the way, I am not surprised to hear about it either … I am quite familiar with that within and often struggle to keep it in its place. The slaps I receive from the fellow seekers are of great assistance in my efforts to pulverize this fellow. Thank you very much. Sincerely, I do not mean any insitentce or compulsion in any of my utterances any time. My experience correlates with the the following that Dasiji has referred to: " The idea of The Everything is that anything and everything including the nothing is based in THAT which makes everything possible being inherent in everything as THAT which can never be known and hence remain nothing within one's perception. Emptying myself to nothing by vomiting all my filth smeared in my desires, fears and all other emotions rooted in these two is what I mean by becoming The Nothing. Only when all the faculties have stopped their childish pranks of attempting to know anything, one attains THAT ... when all the faculties are paused, what is left in one's cognition? The Nothing. AGAIN, PL. DO NOT MAKE AN ATTEMPT TO EXPAND THIS TO ANYTHING BEYOND THE COGNITION. WE HAVE NO BUSINESS TO TALK ABOUT THAT AND HAVE NO RIGHTS TO DISPLAY ANY AUTHORITY OVER IT. " My experience correlates with the above. I get glimpses of The Absolute ONLY WHEN all my claims of ownership in desires, knowledge and actions – Bhoktritva, Gnyatritva and Kartritva – becomes nonexistent, in other words, NOTHING. Yada panchaavatisthante gnyaanaani manasa saha | Buddhishcha na vicheshtate taamaahuh paramaam gatim || Since in my awareness, I cannot achieve it yet … I attempt the above suggested Upasana seriously … to stop all crabbiness I wield amongst the body, senses, mind and intellect to let THAT reveal itself … to empty all my relativities to The Nothing to make myself worthy to receive THE ABSOLUTE. Once the perception looses its pedestal at such a state, all its vocabulary including something, everything, nothing, etc. loose their meaning altogether … anything thought of or uttered or done is too limited to describe The Unlimitted … no need to worry too much on any utterances from that perspective. … yet this is the way I see. Too much importance need not be showered on such opinions. Therefore, I still plead you not to extend my utterances to anything beyond percievable. Though often there may be references to The Absolute here and there, I am calrifying again that " I CANNOT REALLY TALK IN ANY MANNER ON THE GOD OR THE TRUTH OR THE ABSOLUTE OR ANY OTHER TERM THAT MAY BE USED TO REFER TO THE SAME " . May be I should not have used the word " WE " in the original paragraph which might have offended some fellow seekers. Let me repeat it correctly now, " I , AGAIN I, HAVE NO BUSINESS TO TALK ABOUT THE ABSOLUTE AND HAVE NO RIGHTS TO DISPLAY ANY AUTHORITY OVER IT. " If it still sounds " Pravada " to anybody … I apologize … I know only few ways that stem out of my limited experience … I don't know other ways to communicate the same properly. I agree totally, I AM IGNORANT and whatever uttered through me need not be of any significance to any one. One can just drop the unworthy opinion. Therefore, I plead again, " Just drop the unworthy utterances! " Please do not be offended by my ignorance. Thank You. Naga Narayana ------------------------------ -Shree Hari- The word inhalation used by Ravi Bakhsi echoes a term I have used on several threads of this most divine of site. Fana " annihilation " a Sufi term. Vyasji explained recently of how Lord Krishna set about, (these are my words) destroying Arjunas intellectual mind, until of course Arjuna surrendered to the Divine Lord. I did sense this idea when I first read Gitaji, (it was read,I regret in haste ), I felt however an immediate affection for Arjuna, maybe I saw humanity in him, I am not sure. I saw in Krishna that Lord of the Universe I had no name for. (Maybe Logos). Freedom to search for the Divine has no religious/cultural/racial prerequisite and is born within us, we are human, Bhagwan really is at work, rationalization is the opposite to embracing what one finds in the Divine search. I am joyously a 'Child of The Universe', God can touch me in whatever way he deems fit, I am blind to dogmas. The Divine works according to his will not mine or yours. May I say this with absolute certainty, One is never what one thinks one is , the further one enters , 'The Dark Night of The Soul' , the brighter glow the sparks of truth. Never let the ego turn you back. Mahalakshmiji you seem to have fire within your soul, let that fire within illuminate the truth. With Respect and Divine Love, Mike Keenor ------------------------------ Please explain, the Nothing ness between Sun & Earth! Thimaiya Somaiya Pulianda ------------------------------ PRIOR POSTING Nothingness is a different expression of everythingness, we can quantify neither. The anxiety expressed here is a projection of anxiety felt from the immanent end to us all, anhilation of the personal I. That the soul has existence is a hope that the individual ego will continue existing in some form or fashion, thereby escaping its ultimate cessation. The important thing here is to practice the meditation protocols regardless of your personal beliefs and understandings and find out for yourself. Isn't that the beauty of Hinduism? To investigate and find out for yourself? Does it really matter if one says nothing (Buddhist) and the other (Vedantist) everything? Who cares what people say? find out for your self. you are so lucky you have been given these tools so you can stop believing and start growing up. Grow up. Further, to say that, mindlessness, egolessness is totally insignificant exposes a gross nonunderstanding of nature of mind, its conscious and unconscious parts and their relationship to ego and self. This can be modelled. If we take the ocean as our model, the individual ego, its expression as I and the conscious mind would be the wave. Different waves different individuals, all linked and connected by the substratum of the ocean, the unconscious or Self, (Atman). Atmanyeva akhilam drishyam . then the self is seen everywhere, Nirmal akasha vat sadaha, as pure sky, eternally Adi Shankara, Atma Bodha you said " NOTHINGNESS indicates we have no knowledge, no sense of truth or untruth, no existence. " Knowledge, nonknowledge, truth and untruth are ultimately relative and rely upon the existence of each other. They are only given value and meaning by the individual ego, the unconscious recognises no such distinction or prejudice. Why should all encompassing nature of being be equated with non existence? It is the non existence of the individual ego. You can read CG Jung. Memories dreams and reflections and other works, His 'Complete Works' of course make very good light bedtime reading and are highly recommended to insomniacs. Thankyou Ravi Bakhsi ----------------------------- My dandavats to all in this forum, A very simple question......in the explanation Naga Narayan has given, the statement is there describing Pravada.... " Pravada is a single-sided instruction from an authority, a Pravadi " . You are asking those of us in this forum not to take the position of " pravadi " . But aren't you yourself doing that in the following statement, " Again, pl. Do not make an attempt to expand this to anything beyond the cognition. We have no business to talk about that and have no rights to display any authority over it. " We are here to learn from one another; hence each one of us at times takes the mood of student, and at other times teacher......it is a forum of respect, but also challenging if anyone sadhak sees a defect in another's presentation. Personally, I will always feel total grief, sadness and a sense of " combatting " , for loss of a better word, if I hear expressions that the goal of our existence is nothing. Simultaneously, I am striving to respect those who have this goal, and present what I have understood to be the truth in a logical, realistic way. I have that right as an individual to feel a sense of defending the Personality of my Supreme Friend. I feel it is what this forum is for, and we should not take the stand of telling others, " Don't comment on this " . To do so is a contradiction to the entire point of your submission. Respectfully, Mahalaksmi Dasi ------------------------- Jai Hanuman This refers to dream seen by Shirley and narrated for deliberations. Shirleyji. Why in dream only.? In day time also we dream only- whenever we use this mechanical animal known as mind - we dream only. Because our mind can only remain in ignorance zone. It can either travel in " past " or in " future " . Both do not exist !! It remains in " nothing only " . In the dream also there was nothing only. In the wakeful state also , we are dreaming only. Time, order and continuity is bit larger and different in waking state. Otherwise character/nature/element/seer/seen/ seeing wise both are exactly same. Mind is perceiving differently because of illusion, darkness and inherent capacity limitations. Does not our childhood today appear to us as a dream? ( If we are no more child. I can't guess. Because Alice in Wonderland is taught and understood at Sr KG level- I really don't know about maturity ) . That Alice is we. That wonderland is this world. So long as we consider this body and this world to be me and mine, such hallucinations are natural and occur at all times- except in deep sleep. There is no difference in " nothingness " prevailing at all times in us. Whether awake or dreaming. Difference is since that night dream has ended, hence we can call that as " dream " and this day time awakened state dreaming is continuing. To come out of this dream- -First let us put our mind , which is suggesting that " I am body " in a deep freezer - not to be used till deliberations are continuing. - Secondly, Let us use " self " . Ever heard this expression " self " ? Tell honestly if not heard. If we know what " Self " is, then use that instead of mind. We will then grasp the discussion and pick gems out of this Satsanga, and " Nothingness " which is around us at present, will immediately become " Everything " . We are already aware about the names " Radha " , " Krishna " etc. Hence it will be fast process. How to put this mind in deep freezer? Feel we are watcher of this mind. A witness. It is easy. Because. We really are that only. See how it changes. If we are able to feel how our mind is changing every fraction of second, we are through. Come back as soon as we reach to that level. Do revert in case of any problem in dealing with mind or using self/conscience or regarding any other perceptions arising out of mind etc. Jee Jee Shashikala ---------------------------- Dear Sadaks, The supreme becomes humble before his Baktha. Beyond Supreme is HIS bakthas. Bagavan has said in BG that HIS baktha and HE are one and the same. So many instances, Bagavan was quiet, inspite of being abused/misused/ robbed off (temple jewellary). But even the smallest affect (hurting, passing comments, causing inconvenience) to HIS true baktha, the punishment is immediate. (will quote, if needed). So Bagavan keeps HIS bakthas a step higher than Himself (Supreme) B.Sathyanarayan ---------------------------- PRIOR POSTING Dandavats.... A light has gone on in my heart!!!! There is a different angle to the explanation of " nothing " beyond Purusha. I did not understand the words previously presented....it is here understood that " nothing " beyond indicates that the Supreme Person is Supreme, there is no more to be said, nothing beyond Him. My gratitude to you, Vyasaji, for getting through this murky intelligence. My apologies for not responding yet to Sashikala's challenge and agree with her presentation that, as per the Bhagavad Gita, the nature of this material world, being ever changing, is certainly on one level considered to be non-existent; however, it is a very delicate topic. If one says it is " nothing " , then there is room for the mind to say, (at least my mind does on occasion) " If it is all nothing, then why do I have to try so hard to be dutiful? " So, I personally do not like to describe the temporary material creation as nothing....I prefer to consider it as a dream.....a dream IS a dream, it may give some insight into a different realm, if in connection with the Absolute.....or it may have no significance.....but still, it IS. So, I am not so quick to describe this temporary manifestation as nothing. I appreciate your time, pointing out that sadhaks are not interested in activities other than devotional service. I pray that I may not be stuck in this dream forever; may all bless me that I may wake up to my true spiritual nature. Dandavats..... Mahalaksmi Dasi -- IN ENGLSIH What you saw was a dream. What you are seeing now in your waking state, is also a dream. Brahm is illusion, you yourself had that dream (unreal), and that this is real. The Alice who was in your dream, that same Alice is now as well. This wonderland itself is this life, this world and this Alice is you. Even in dream it was an illusion and even now too you are in illusion. This is the truth and solid thing. Stop believing this body to be yours. Immediately. You will receive benediction. Or else, this Alice may have to even see horrific dreams. Therefore get out of this illusion. You are already established in illusion right now. Even in dream it is only nothing. You simply don't know. This itself is called Maya. This itself is called ignorance, baseness. (Ramchandra) IN HINDI Shirleyji Jo dekha thaa vah dream tha. Jo jagrat avastha main abhi dekh rahe ho vah bhi in fact dream hi hai. Bhram, illusion hai apko ki vah dream (unreal) tha aur yeh real hai. Jo Alice dream main tha vahi Alice abhi bhi hai. Wonderland yeh sansaar hi hai aur Alice aap hain. Dream main bhi bhram main the, abhibhi aap bhram main hi hain. Pucci baat hai yeh. Sareer ko apna maanana band kar dijiye. Immediately. Apka kalyaan ho jayega. Varana bhayankar dreams bhi is wonderland main Alice ko dekhane pad sakte hain. Bhram se baahar nikaliye, Nothing main hi to aap abhi viraajmaan hain. Dream main bhi nothing main hi the. Maloom nahin hai apko. Isi ko maya kaha jata hai. Yehi moodhata kahlaati hai. (Ramchandra) An ardent appeal to everyone: This form has retained its sanctity by promoting the very meaning of Sadhana in its true sense. I appeal to everyone to treat it the same way. In my opinion, Sadhana should always be focused on one's inherent ignorance and inertia with a sole resolve of reducing the same to eventually remove the same. I am sure all share this view. Unfortunately, we have no way but to communicate within and with the fellow like-minded seekers to achieve the same. Communication is the only way of removal of ignorance as it was gained in the same way. There are three types of communications - Pravada, Vivada and Sumvada. Pravada is a single sided instruction from an authority, a Pravadi. Only an authority such as Lord Krishna can do this. Neither of us can be that. I am sure everyone realizes this. Vivada is all of us are too familiar with. Sticking to what we think we know and to attack anything that seems to disturb it in an effort to safeguard what we think we know. The premise for vivada is to promote one's own ego through information and hence it inevitably provocates and injures others inviting a conflict. Such an act is called " Aatmahatya " - self-slaying act because the very act promotes the very same ego which is the most opaque hurdle in one's spiritual progress. It is verily aatmahatya because the gloating or injured ego will never rest removing any chance for anybody to be oneself, one's most natural state of bliss. We have been accumulating our ignorance in such communications all our lives ... I appeal one should not continue this, at least in the name of Sadhana. Sumvada is the one that is necessary wherein the premise is that I may be necessarily wrong since I am the one who is feeling miserable and that somebody may help me reveal my ignorance for my observation and renunciation. Finding wrong in others can only boost one's ignorance. Respecting contradictory views on the contrary may have a chance break one's opaque shell of ignorance. Open mindedness is a must for spiritual practice in my experience. I appeal to everyone to observe this with an open mind. Please ... let us not sacrilege the sanctity of such a forum ... Coming to " Nothing " , Something " , " Everything " etc. I always treat any term or any concept as one belonging to one's perception only. If somebody declares on The God - The Absolute that is beyond all explanations and hence remains mostly unknown within anybody's perception - in any way, I consider it as a childish prank ... nothing more. The very reason that an unknown is unknown is that I do not know that! When I do not know, how can I ever say that is this or that? be it nothing or everything? be that " it exists " or " it does not exist " . All the Upanishads univocaly try to educate our ego to stop its habit of attempting to bring everything into the realm of its " known " . Therefore, I do not want to attempt to make any statements regarding anything that is not known to me - Soul, Self, God, etc. As everybody in this forum understand, they do not belong to the domain of one's ego or its colleagues mind and body! The idea of Nothing is the nothingness in one's perception ... Yada panchaavatishthante Gnyaanaani manasaa saha | Buddhishcha na vicheshatate taamaahuh paramaam gatim || The answer to a seeker's quest to appreciate THAT, the suggestion is to become nothing within - no images, no pretensions, no tendencies, no emotions, no relations, .... nothing but THAT. THAT remains nothing to one's perception as every unknown is nothing bu the nothing in one's perception. The idea of The Everything is that anything and everything including the nothing is based in THAT which makes everything possible being inherent in everything as THAT which can never be known and hence remain nothing within one's perception. Emptying myself to nothing by vomiting all my filth smeared in my desires, fears and all other emotions rooted in these two is what I mean by becoming The Nothing. Only when all the faculties have stopped their childish pranks of attempting to know anything, one attains THAT ... when all the faculties are paused, what is left in one's cognition? The Nothing. AGAIN, PL. DO NOT MAKE AN ATTEMPT TO EXPAND THIS TO ANYTHING BEYOND THE COGNITION. WE HAVE NO BUSINESS TO TALK ABOUT THAT AND HAVE NO RIGHTS TO DISPLAY ANY AUTHORITY OVER IT. Therefore, any authoritative statement that " THAT exists " is as sacrilegious as the claim that " THAT does not exist " . Existence is another concept confined in our perceptional limit ... then how can that be extended beyond? PLEASE DO NOT MAKE THIS MISTAKE. Andhantamam pravishanti ye asmbhutimupasate - One who rejects the idea of The Supreme as it remains unknown is verily ignorant having no clue of how his belief in his knowledge is misleading him. But at least he has a chance that he may see the limits of his understanding ability one day and leave the unknown alone. Tato bhuaya iva te tamo ye u sambhutyaam rataah - But, one who insists that The Supreme exists is a bigger fool with very little chance to appreciate his limitations because he believes even the unknown is known to him!! THEREFORE, my appeal to all is to not sacrilege the Yagnya that is going on in this auspicious forum ... the only thing that should be sacrificed into this fire is our egos, our ignorance ... NEVER our Shraddha. Vivada directly attacks our collective Shraddha. PLEASE do not entertain vivada. With Deep Respects to all. Naga Narayana. -- PRIOR POSTING Jay Shree Krishna IN ENGLISH I cannot clearly understand everyone's inner sentiments in English. But it appears that from your discussion, it is not going according to the group's intent. Moderator must be careful about this. One must remain alert that without engaging in too much discussion, to grab hold of the essence, and deeply understand it. In Saint's words it is therefore said that " Brother, now leave listening / reading / learning, and instead know, believe and accept it. The thing to know is the world, the thing to believe is God. Beyond those talks a sadhak has not much concern, that who said what? How they said it? Falling into this hassle, a sadhak must remain ever alert not to waste their own time, as well as, other's time. You all are intelligent, and educated.. in few words, one must understand more. Rameshji IN HINDI Mai English me Aap sabke pure bhav samjta nahi hu.Lekin lagta hai ki Aapki charch..es group ke udeshy ke anurup nahi lag rahi hai.Modretor ko yeh khyal rakhna chahiye.Jyada vad-vivad badhakar..sar bat ko grahan karne ke liye sajag rahana chahiye.Sant Vaani me esiliye kaha hoga ki " Bhai Aab sunana-sikhana chhodo...Aur Janana aur Manana swikar kar lo. Janana hai es jagat ke bare me,Manana hai Prabhu ko...jyada bato se sadhak ko matlab nahi ki kisne kya kaha?kaise kaha. Es panchayati me padkar apana aur dusaro ka samy kharab na ho yeh harek sadhak ko savdhani rakhani chahiye.Aap sab samjdar,Padhe- likhe log ho..thode me jyada samaj lena. Rameshji -------------------------------- Hari Om The Kathopanishad state - Chapter 1, Valli 3 , verses 10 and 11 - " There is " nothing " beyond Purusha " . The Upanishads are said to be the summary of Vedas. Shrimad Bhagvad Gita is considered as the " essence " of the Upanishads. Purusha is defined as Paramatma in Gita/Upanishads/Vedas. Purusha is also used for pure soul part in Jeeva. God is also known as Purushottam in Gita.(Gita 15:18). Gita also confirms the same vide Gita 2:16 ,3:42, 9:4, 15:18 and 7:19. (Combined reading) - there may be more verses confirming this.. " Naham prakashah sarvasyam " is in Gita 7:25. Reference reg " avyaktam " is in Gita 9:4 . Refer also " udasinvadasino " term used in BG 14:23 (Like an udasin- when there is nothing except God how can only " udasin " word be used- it has to be " like " an udasin !) This reply is pursuant to Vimalji's query to Dr Goli. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B My dandavats to all in this forum, My sincere apologies to anyone who may have felt my inquiries were out of line in my last posting......I was trying with extreme caution to present my question in a non-personal, general way, but as I am often a tactless person, can understand that I have failed again. My question was meant to highlight the point that if we believe truly that everything is ultimately nothing, (as indicated in this quotation, " --- thus Nothing is Everything, even beyond Purusha. Our Krishna said 'Jagadavyaktamurtin a' I am unmanifest Divinity. 'Naaham Prakasaha' I am not manifest. He is beyond Purusha - NOTHING " I certainly hope that Anjaneyulu Goli felt no offense, indeed, I am certain that he has the depth of understanding to know that he is not the material body, nor any designation applied to it.....hence, I sincerely doubt if he was offended. A man in knowledge is not disturbed by any reference to the body being significant or not. Still, I thank Vyasaji for pointing out to me that I should be more sensitive. My point was not meant to denigrate anyone, so again, if there was appearance of such, my profuse apologies. On the vein of the same discussion, in his presentation the good Dr. has said, final word, " nothing " ....after the statement, " He is beyond Purusha " . Please kindly explain to me, Vyasa, what this means. I have no problem with the point that we are here trying to understand a religious path, how to live life according to Gita, however, you must accept that it disturbs me greatly to have it presented that the Supreme Absolute Truth, Sri Krsna, who has an eternal form composed of bliss and knowledge, who has a home known as Goloka Vrndavan, who is beyond the Purusa, can be equated with nothingness. If you think that perhaps the doctor was offended by referring to him with the title " nothing " , think about how it must hurt the Supreme Person to be thought of as such. Sincerely, with best wishes, Mahalaksmi Dasi Vimalji - Namaste I present the following source you are pleased to know: ' Naaham prakashha ' Gita Ch 7 Sl 25 Veiled by My Yogamaya, I am not manifest to all. Hence these ignorant folk fail to recognise Me, the unborn and imperishable Supreme Deity 'Jagadavyaktamoorthina' Gita Ch 9 Sl 4 The whole of this universe is permeated by Me as unmanifest Divinity, and all beings rest on the idea within Me. Therefore, really speaking, I am not present in them. Anjaneyulu Goli -------------------------------- Dear readers, Well, I am going to add something to this discussion. It is not wrong to share a dream, is it? I can't tell you who I really am, because I don't know who I am....I think I am this body.....but this dream is really interesting. I was in a room with lots of other sadhaks. I like the word devotees. My guru was sitting up front, only I don't think my guru knew about this dream. I think it was Krsna, appearing as guru. Anyway, he asked me, " What is more dangerous, the poison in the hand of the rabbit, or Nothing? " (Krsna knows all about Alice in Wonderland) I replied, quickly, " Why of course, the poison in the hand of the rabbit, because " nothing " does not exist. " The entire room of devotees responded back to me, " No, " Nothing " is more powerful " . I turned to Krsna-disguised-as-guru....and I gave an inquiring look. To which the response came back, " Nothing is more powerful. Because Alice believed in it. " I think Krsna was challenging me.....do I want to believe in " Nothing " ? I can if I want. It is a powerful, powerful state of mind.......I ask myself many times......what could cause me to believe that there is no longer any point to living? What type of offenses would I commit, that my consciousness would lose track of trying to attain a level of purity, lose track of trying to aspire for being Godly, forget about entering into a realm of eternal lila with Sri Sri Radha and Krsna? etc etc. And lose track of all the times I have seen Krsna in my dreams, inviting me to be near to Him? These are questions I ask often. Thank you for listening to me. Sri Radhe Shirley May - It is only our ego which makes us important. Otherwise we are nothing. We are hollow inside. We are nothing and we dissolve into nothingness, when we die.Unless we realise it we will keep on making mistakes, which will result in endless births and deaths. The spiritual path is only to save our souls. Hari Shanker Deo - PRIOR POSTING Hari Om Neither this web site has advocated any " nothingness " nor any " somethingness " nor has any Sadhak talked about any nothingness or any somethingness- without any context.. We are here to discuss about Gita and religious way of living life. It is in my humble view that you have raised a topic out of " nothing " and used that topic for passing improper personal comments upon contributors to the deliberations. This site is definitely not meant for exhibition of such behavior where we can injudiciously call any person to be hypocrite or question as to how he is using title " Dr " before his name or throwing mud at any person's way of living. None is entitled to exhibit such conduct. Dr is part of a name. Does not the other party also has a name after a divine person of Sanatan Dharma? What right then he/she has to use that name? In the recent past also similar absurd, comments were passed even for a Saint of the class of Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj. He was called as a hypocrite, dishonest, false and what not. Due to continued similar conduct, I must state my views. I hope the Moderators will be as kind to me as they were with this particular sadhak- in publishing this note.. Is such conduct proper? Is it fair? If some one does not agree to any view point, he/she has choice /option of humbly disagreeing and withdrawing from deliberations. Which religion or Preceptor teaches us to humiliate in such a brazen manner any contributors ? This has so far been for genuine sadhaks, has it not? Who asked a comparison between two countries? Did the discussion warrant that? It must be understood that such person not only lowers himself/herself before such an elite family type satsanga forum, but he/she also brings to disrepute his/her siksha/ diksha Gurus and the very organisation to which she/he claims to be belonging. One must never forget that if you raise one accusing finger towards any one, 3 fingers of the same hand get directed towards you- automatically. Sanatan Dharma/Vedas never teach such conduct. Dr. Anjaneyulu Goli and Naga Narayanaji are entitled to an apology. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ------------------------------ Dear Sadaks, Putting Dr in front of name is identification of the body. More over Dr means profession not the soul. Sri Krishnah mean anadham. Sri is respect to our Bagavan. Plain Krishna may mean somebody by name Krishna. Dr.Anjeneyalu put Dr prefix before his name by habbit. Dr profession has nothing to do with spritual matters. Dear Sadaks please avoid finding fault with one an another. See Bagavan in everybody. There is NOTHING wrong Right in identification. Bagavan in Geetha says in many places Partha or Arjuna. It is only identification to who Bagavan speaking to. For Bagavan Partha or Duryodana are equal to HIM. B.Sathyanarayan ------------------------------- Narayan Narayan Mateshwari jee IN ENGLISH That which changes, is unreal (non-existent, perishable, moving towards destruction) and That which does not change, is real (existent,imperishable)(Gita 2:16) IN HINDI Jho bhadalta hai uski saata naahi hoti or Jho naahi bhadalta usi ki saata hoti hai(Gita 2:16) (ramchandra) - Dear Sadhaks, I was comtemplating on Vivekachudami of Adi Sankara`s. My friend not intereseted in spiritual matters asked me, " What are you contemplating as you could not recognise my presence " . I said, " NOTHING " . Does it mean real. I was contemplating on SOMETHING. Going beyond conscience level (without Pragniya) is Samadhi state, that which like Sadashiva Bramendral/yogi Raj could do. But these saints came back to normal state after many days. How? They were with Paramatma but though their functioning they were beyond senses. During Maha Pralaya (final destruction) it says everything gets destroyed with souls abiding in Paramatma. Again when creation commences these souls take forms. This is said in Upanishads. So there is NO stage called " Nothing " exists. But the word " nothing " is misunderstood. Nothing more to discuss rather than keep saying " Om Namo Narayana " . B.Sathyanarayan My dandavats to all in this forum, In response to Dr. Anjaneyuyu Goli, I would like to respond from a point of view of one who has certainly studied the Vedas, but not with the ability to translate, or even to know the various different meanings which can be attributed to any given word, which causes the scenario of, depending on who is translating,, a totally different meaning being gleaned depending on the mood/interpretation of the translator. So, my response to you, Dr, is, if you truly believe that nothingness is the ultimate, why do you put the title " Dr " in front of your name? Why not go by Anjaneyuyu Nothing? Indeed, with no disrespect intended, I ask you honestly, isn't it a bit of hypocrisy to use a title which sets you just a niche or two above others, while presenting that nothingness, which has no social distinctions, is your belief system? Truly, it may appeal to some (I am not saying anyone in particular, it is a question more than an accusation) that they can hide behind a convenient philosophy of nothingness, which allows no sense of impending guilt if one behaves in a misdirected or selfish, or just plain sinful fashion. But if an individual truly is in touch with Supersoul, I believe that he or she will not accept a translation of the holy scriptures which guides one to nothingness. Because no one can live this path in this life. No one can sit down on the sidewalk, stop eating, drinking, interacting, striving for recognition amongst one's fellow human beings, etc. So, when I hear presentations which are concluding with this idea, my only thought is that it is not an honest path. Those who choose it do not live it. It is virtually impossible in the west, even to remain seated as an Avadhut, such as Rsabhadeva did in the Bhagavatam.....(He lay on the ground, like a python, and if food entered his mouth, He ate....if nothing came to Him, He fasted.....but He also was able to make His stool smell like roses, because He is the Supreme Personality of Godhead incarnated). Anyway, if someone were on such a detached level in this country, he would be subject to being thrown in jail. A truly realized person would not allow himself to be the object of such offensive actions, knowing the offenders would suffer horrible reactions. He would not put himself in such a position.....but in India, certainly one could live in the streets, waiting for whatever mercy of the Lord came to him, and be left alone. Personally, I do not accept that even this conduct, of the avadhut's, is a state of " nothingness " . I have understood from my teachers, and my studying of the Vedas, that those whose activities in this world are minimal, but are either absorbed in chanting the Lord's names, or in trance, are still absorbed within in a realm of total activity, a state of samadhi where the soul has left this encagement and is interacting in a transcendental world, beyond time and space. In this transcendental world, described in the Brahma Samhita, there is no time.Not even the passing of one moment; it remains in the eternal, undivided present. Brahma Samhita gives detailed description of this transcendental world, which is full of Surabhi cows, which fulfill all desires, where unlimited wish-fulfilling trees fulfill any aspiration of the devotee (who's only desires are to continue engaging in loving devotional exchanges with the Lord and other sadhaks) where light is full of knowledge and bliss, and where the supreme spiritual substance which comprises all things is relishable (cintamani). This is a world which is not " nothing " . It may sound like a " fairy tale " to some, but I truly believe that fairies are real. If you or others don't believe in fairies, or in Goloka Vrndavana, which is presented in the Brahma Samhita, then you may have to keep trying to believe in nothing. Personally, I feel that " nothingness " philosophy is a trap, and I pray that any sadhaks reading this kindly bless me that I may have the strength to always resist the temptation of " nothingness " . I feel it is an excuse for giving up loving devotional activites, such as sravanam, kirtanam, visnoh smaranam (hearing, chanting, and remembering the Lord). My respects to all, Mahalaksmi Dasi Respected Dr. Anjaneyulu Goli Jay Shri Krushn Pl. refer to foll. text in your reply. Can you pl. help me to know the source of the same. Our Krishna said 'Jagadavyaktamurtina' I am unmanifest Divinity. 'Naaham Prakasaha' I am not manifest. He is beyond Purusha - NOTHING Jay Shri Krushn Vimal PRIOR POSTING The 'Challenge' is the best question " Pariprasna " . The Answer is - This philosophical precept of 'Nothing' is 'Everything' , beyond the Purusha. The Kathopanishad answers the challenge Beyond the senses are the objects beyond the objects is the mind beyond the mind is the intellect beyond the intellect the great Atman beyond the Atman the unmanifest beyond the unmanifest - the Purusha beyond the Purusha - there is Nothing this is the end, the Supreme goal ---- thus Nothing is Everything, even beyond Purusha. Our Krishna said 'Jagadavyaktamurtina' I am unmanifest Divinity. 'Naaham Prakasaha' I am not manifest. He is beyond Purusha - NOTHING Dr. Anjaneyulu Goli ---------------------------- Dear Mahalakshmi Dasiji, When ever we use the word ' I ' mostly we mean the body or the mind or the intellect. This is because we accept ourselves as one of these. In other words, we identify ourselves as one of these. Rarely do we mean 'Atma' being the ' I '. In that sense, one may say that as distinct from soul ' I ' exists. Having realised God, there is no ' I ' as earlier percieved (Body, Mind or Intellect). Now, the identity of this ' I ' in case of a 'Gyani' merges with the soul. It is like a drop of water is different from the ocean only so far as it has not merged with it. Having fallen in and merging with the ocean, there is no more separate identity of the drop of water. As distict from this, in 'Bhakti', the Bhakta wants to retain his separate identity not as this body, mind or intellect but as 'Sevak' of his God. His identity then changes from his wordly identity to his 'Adhyatmic' identity. I wonder if I have been able to clarify your thoughts. My request to fellow Sadhaks is that instead of answering a question by asking another question or challenging the questioner, it would be better if we think from the point of view of the questioner and appreciate her point of view before we embark upon obsessively answering the question. We will never be able to do justice to the question unless we try to put ourselves into the shoe of the questioner and think from his point of view as to why he may have asked the question. A.H.Dalmia ---------------------------- For directly viewing and realizing this sort of " Nothingness " under discussion, one has to look towards the clear sky with absolutely a vacant look, though at the same time trying to very deeply perceive what is happening there,within minutes it will be seen that there are streams of infinitisimal bubbles which appear from nowhere and disappear to nowhere moving with tremendous speed. What are these bubbles? wherefrom these originate and where do they go? Perhaps they do not at all originate and also do not at all disintegrate. This close and continuous observation may lead to further realization which we go on hunting in our mind for birth after birth to remind at the end " amon manab jonom roilo potit, abad korle folto shona " (such a human birth has been wasted, had it been properly nourished gold could have been ripped). Barin Chatterjee ------------------------------ Dear Sadaks, The conscience level of Ego, desire, Anger etc completely vanishes for a person who meditated/introgated and found that everything around is temporary and that which is Sat- Chit- Anandam is permanent.That person remains silent (even does not meditate) and wittnesses everything around with smile on his face. He has very clearly understood he is not the body but Athuman and NOTHING important to him, even his death. Examples: 1)Jada Bharatha was to beheaded as human sacrifice. Bagavath says-He face became like just bloomed lotus. For him NOTHING matters. 2)Tukaram had vision of Sri Vishnu inviting him to Vaikunt. He had 2 small kids and wife. NOTHING was important to him than Bagavan call. There was no feeling about his family as he knew that his family belongs to Jaganath` s and not his. Total surrender. As long as he was with his family he never failed in his Karma. But when call came from Divineess NOTHING was important to him. 3)Ramana Rishi in Thiruvanaamalai left home at age of 12 reached Arunachalleswarar Temple. NOTHING was important to him other than self realization. 4) Valmiki left his family and sat in meditation. NOTHING was important to him than Rama NAAM. 5) Puranderdoss was a king of himself with 9 Crore wealth at that time and was called Nava Koti Narayanan. A vision of Sri Vishnu made him to leave everything behind and go as Bikshu. NOTHING was important to him, as he knew very well that everything around has to left one day on Anthim Yatra. Why wait till that day, do it today, use the body equipment for realization. He did not know whether he will get next meal. But NOTHING around was important to him. 6) In Neveli near chennai, there lived a person by name Vallalar very recently during British rule. He disappeared in presence of so many Govt official. NOTHING was important to him. 7) Eknath Maharaj used to say that to day is the day for Nama Sankeethan, tomorrow is not in my hands. So there was glory in his face that everyone saw. For him NOTHING was interesting around him. Sadaks might be knowing about a muslim who spitted on Ekanath several time same day but Ekanath did not unter a word, but said it is Bagavan Leela. NOTHING disturbed him or NOTHING was there for him to get angry. There is Paramathuma- Easwar (Shiva)- Brama Lok- Ganderva Lok etc 14 worlds, beyond is Sri Chakra (Refer Sounderiya Lehari) and Vaikunt For an ant the knowledge is limited only to area it lives. So also for ignorant persons. For the realized one knowledge is limitless, he can converse in any language, he sees Bhraman in everything, he undergoes any torcher silently with smile as he knows NOTHING can trouble him. E.g. Prahalad B.Sathyanarayan -------------------------------- PRIOR POSTING Dear Maha Dasi, I am watching you to learn the great qualities in your name as well as your outlook ... You are already there ... that is why you could call yourself as a Dasi (a Maha Dasi for me to practice) ... The Nothing is the state of Bhakti as such ... I know I use this term a lot in my responses ... Your doubt is an excellent since that wields the power of annihilating all other doubts categorically. I will make an attempt to address it in a series of limitted appreciations that I could make on The Avadhuta Gita ... Respects. Naga Narayana -------------------------------- Jai Hanuman Mahalakshmi Mata Jee ! You have ended your question by a challenge ! Unnecessarily !! Hence I must challenge you Jee - necessarily- Jee !!! I challenge you Mahalakshmi Mata Jee to find out(please search, search and search !!! Jee Jee !) and present before sadhaks a single statement made by any sadhak at any point of time where he/she has stated that " soul has no existence " . Sadhaks are not mad and insane people who can write so - none has written so in my view, then what to talk of Sadhaks of this esteemed Gita Talk Group Jee ?? Tamma Bhaiyya (My Dear Brother Naga Narayanaji) once or twice referred regarding " Nothingness " but never with reference to soul/self/Paramatma. Tamma Bhaiyya was 100 percent right there. How can a learned man like Tamma Bhaiyya say " soul/self does not exist? " . From his writings his deep knowledge of Upanishads is abundantly clear Jee! By the way, Jee ! All others except individual soul-self/God are " nothing " Jee!! Jee, My second challenge to you, Mahalakshmi Jee, is to prove that everything except Self/Paramatma is not " nothing " . I say for the first time it is " nothing " . Now I say, Jee, that all balance (except individual soul and God ) including mind, ego, intellect, body, world (inert) is nothing-nothing-nothing Jee. I dare you to prove me wrong. I challenge you on that. Come On ! I wait for your reply. " NASATO VIDYATE BHAVO, NABHAVO VIDYATE SATAH " (Gita 2:16) " The Unreal has no existence and the real never ceases to be; the truth of both these, has been perceived by seers of truth. " (Gita 2:16) Come On ! Let us here from you Jee !! Namaste Jee Jee Jee Shashikala - dear fellow sadhaks namaskaram ., even i was having questions on nothingness , and in due course the answer i got for myself is , our existence is not small , even in nothingness it cannot be expressed as small , EVEN WHEN WE ARE NOTHINGNESS , THAT NOTHINGNESS EXISTS , AND SO EXISTENCE IS ETERNAL AND SO WE ARE ETERNAL INDEED . PRANAMS TO GURUJI. ( kindly forgive if anything is wrong in my quote ) " aravanan karan " Let us put it this way. What shall be nothingness? Let us call it as something akin to the state, devoid of everything. No thing, every thing. I would suggest a perspecrive, which shall say that devoid of all emperical aspects, contents. This could further mean that, devoid of all involvement, or attachement to and of, mundane world, emperical world. In other words, it is a state of complete detachment, and even when one goes on living mundane life, it shall be a life without atttachment, living unattached, as in the case of the 'Jivan Mukta'. Precisely this shall be the concept of a " nishkama karma " . With this, one goes into the state of " Tyena Tyaktena Punjita " also. Adi Sankara also speaks in the same line. Jagat is mithya, illusory, which is so because of changing matter. Buddha says the same too, 'Kshanika Vada'. Now the very property of soul is 'Pure Consciousness' and the idea of pure consciousness is minus and mundane contents. it is a consciousness minus any emperical content. perhaps this could be the state of nothing. Visharad Sharma (deleted some paragraphs, to stay aligned with current discussion - from Gita Talk moderator) -------------------------------- I totally agree with Mahalaxmi Dasi. Every soul is significant. If any one hurts that significane, in the future, he himself have to suffer. This is called ATTITUDE of life - it ought to be POSITIVE. Brahma Mehrotra Let us please stick to Mahalaksmi Dasi ji's Hinduism as below. Nothingness is a Buddhist concept not Hindu, nor it is the illusion philosophy of Adi Shankra, surely. This email thread is about Gita Talk and there is nothing in the Gita about nothingness, rather it is about everything - everything that is glorious and great - but only with a condition for Karma that it is done for God so that the Grace of God would absorb it and make it nothing. This is the HINDU concept and from the beginning of creation per the Hindu scripture we have the same concept, for instance, Lord Shiva absorbed the poison from the ocean churning and so on to save mankind ---- anil bhanot GUIDELINES FOR POSTING A RESPONSE: 1. The group is focused on the Holy Gitaji, therefore, only responses which further clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will be posted. 2. Making reference of Gitaji shloka is highly encouraged - at least once in the response. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to substantiate your response. 3. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting sadhaka's time. Under no circustance the answer should be limited to half a book page, at the most 3-4 paragraphs. 4. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only. 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other organizations (we do not have the bandwidth to review links to determine if content is appropriate for distribution). 7. Complete reproduction of texts from any book is strongly discouraged, however partial cut - paste is acceptable and references may be made of the book or author(but not links to other sites). 8. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone number, address etc. 9. Please use appropriate judgement and only address the response to a particular individual, where it makes sense to do so. 10. Due to the large readership, only those responses will be posted which are in line with the general philosophy of taking Shrimad Bhagavad Gita as the reference. 11. Moderator will reject any content that does not meet guidelines. However, for expediency, moderator at his discretion, may modify / delete portions of the posting for mispelling, wordiness that is irrelevant to the overall core discussion, personal information, opinions / feelings etc. that do not align with guidelines. 12. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use of only Sanskrit words, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit bracketed wherever possible. 13. Any personal remarks over the knowledge of any sadhak or about the stage at which any sadhak is standing in his quest / sadhna / spiritual journey - must not be included in your posting. Also, there should not be any sarcasm towards fellow sadhaks in this spiritual learning and sharing. 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Guest guest Posted October 31, 2008 Report Share Posted October 31, 2008 ATTENTION: ALL SADHAK AND GITA TALK GROUP EMAILS ARE MODERATED AND POSTED ONLY FROM EMAIL ID: Sadhak_insight. Any emails received from other email ids or individuals are strictly not coming from the moderated site. Thank you! From Gita Talk Moderator Ram Ram NEW POSTING Shree Hari Ram Ram We are clearing pending queue today... few additional emails... only today. Gita Talk Moderators. Ram Ram -------------------------------- NEW POSTING Well i am not an EDUCATED person on this topic - probably intentionally. As education prejudices about truth But I think, even the words and language becomes quite insufficient to describe such states (of mind) And only similies or rupakas that the acclaimed saints describe may be the only way. We only recognize these rupakas meanings as WE travel the path on our own. But my simple theory is - the TRUTH and ETERNITY should be accessible to anyone irrespctive of where he/she/it is or where he/she/it started. It is just a journey. Many a times I have a feeling that quantum mechanices may describe lot of mind related things. (note : describe e.g. answer how and not why? - ref Feynman) Hope this bakbak was something of a help, interesting to read. atul kumthekar -------------------- -Shree Hari- Quick note of thanks to Brother Vyas. The way of expressing spiritual matters is often difficult. By nature I am be sombre, but always loving and I believe compassionate. God has metered out to me, as the Orientals would say 'Interesting Times'. I actually have written about my experiences and thoughts, and have helped some with them. A line I wrote in a projection of myself upon a pilgrim, went something like this " ....... every icy river every blooded step was your desire ...... " We have all existed before , and those rivers of pain, icy blizzards and so on, were of my choosing, a tool to obtain Divine love, God gave me my wish. I bow to you Sir for reminding me. Time to greet the " Morning Sun " With Respect and Divine Love, Mike Keenor ---------------------------- The goal of meditation is meditation now, meditation in itself is a meaningless english word which does not convey what is being done here. The Sanskrit Dhyan, means awareness. A cultivation of the attitude of relaxed awareness. Let us practice Dhyan and report back as to what experience one gets when we went beyond ego? was it nothing or what? Why speculate, deduce, infer, imagine,dream? Have we not been told not to in Yoga sutras 5 ? Often, there is time to argue but no time to find out. Ego likes argument, it makes it important; So, Find out !!! Time is precious Find out Thankyou for reading, sorry for offending, but these are my observations Ravi Bakhshi PRIOR POSTING I have a question, in regards to various suggestions that are continually made in this forum. I hear repeatedly a theme in regard to the goal of meditation, upasanas, etc, being " nothing " . Also postings telling persons that once they go beyond ego, they become completely mindless, egoless, totally insignificant. It is my understanding that the soul has an existence.....an existence means, " I am not nothing " . I may be insignificant, but by the mere fact that I am saying " I " , that indicates that I, or we, have significance. However small any of our influence or existence may be, we ARE. I challenge those who truly believe that we are nothing. if you truly believe that YOU ARE NOTHING, then how can you have any truth to convey? NOTHINGNESS indicates you have no knowledge, no sense of truth or untruth, no existence. So, why are you trying to give this to others? Respectfully, Mahalakshmi dasi - Dandavats.... A light has gone on in my heart!!!! There is a different angle to the explanation of " nothing " beyond Purusha. I did not understand the words previously presented....it is here understood that " nothing " beyond indicates that the Supreme Person is Supreme, there is no more to be said, nothing beyond Him. My gratitude to you, Vyasaji, for getting through this murky intelligence. Mahalaksmi Dasi -- IN ENGLSIH What you saw was a dream. What you are seeing now in your waking state, is also a dream. Brahm is illusion, you yourself had that dream (unreal), and that this is real. The Alice who was in your dream, that same Alice is now as well. This wonderland itself is this life, this world and this Alice is you. Even in dream it was an illusion and even now too you are in illusion. This is the truth and solid thing. Stop believing this body to be yours. Immediately. You will receive benediction. Or else, this Alice may have to even see horrific dreams. Therefore get out of this illusion. You are already established in illusion right now. Even in dream it is only nothing. You simply don't know. This itself is called Maya. This itself is called ignorance, baseness. (Ramchandra) IN HINDI Shirleyji Jo dekha thaa vah dream tha. Jo jagrat avastha main abhi dekh rahe ho vah bhi in fact dream hi hai. Bhram, illusion hai apko ki vah dream (unreal) tha aur yeh real hai. Jo Alice dream main tha vahi Alice abhi bhi hai. Wonderland yeh sansaar hi hai aur Alice aap hain. Dream main bhi bhram main the, abhibhi aap bhram main hi hain. Pucci baat hai yeh. Sareer ko apna maanana band kar dijiye. Immediately. Apka kalyaan ho jayega. Varana bhayankar dreams bhi is wonderland main Alice ko dekhane pad sakte hain. Bhram se baahar nikaliye, Nothing main hi to aap abhi viraajmaan hain. Dream main bhi nothing main hi the. Maloom nahin hai apko. Isi ko maya kaha jata hai. Yehi moodhata kahlaati hai. (Ramchandra) An ardent appeal to everyone: This form has retained its sanctity by promoting the very meaning of Sadhana in its true sense. I appeal to everyone to treat it the same way. In my opinion, Sadhana should always be focused on one's inherent ignorance and inertia with a sole resolve of reducing the same to eventually remove the same. I am sure all share this view. Unfortunately, we have no way but to communicate within and with the fellow like-minded seekers to achieve the same. Communication is the only way of removal of ignorance as it was gained in the same way. There are three types of communications - Pravada, Vivada and Sumvada. Pravada is a single sided instruction from an authority, a Pravadi. Only an authority such as Lord Krishna can do this. Neither of us can be that. I am sure everyone realizes this. Vivada is all of us are too familiar with. Sticking to what we think we know and to attack anything that seems to disturb it in an effort to safeguard what we think we know. The premise for vivada is to promote one's own ego through information and hence it inevitably provocates and injures others inviting a conflict. Such an act is called " Aatmahatya " - self-slaying act because the very act promotes the very same ego which is the most opaque hurdle in one's spiritual progress. It is verily aatmahatya because the gloating or injured ego will never rest removing any chance for anybody to be oneself, one's most natural state of bliss. We have been accumulating our ignorance in such communications all our lives ... I appeal one should not continue this, at least in the name of Sadhana. Sumvada is the one that is necessary wherein the premise is that I may be necessarily wrong since I am the one who is feeling miserable and that somebody may help me reveal my ignorance for my observation and renunciation. Finding wrong in others can only boost one's ignorance. Respecting contradictory views on the contrary may have a chance break one's opaque shell of ignorance. Open mindedness is a must for spiritual practice in my experience. I appeal to everyone to observe this with an open mind. Please ... let us not sacrilege the sanctity of such a forum ... Coming to " Nothing " , Something " , " Everything " etc. I always treat any term or any concept as one belonging to one's perception only. If somebody declares on The God - The Absolute that is beyond all explanations and hence remains mostly unknown within anybody's perception - in any way, I consider it as a childish prank ... nothing more. The very reason that an unknown is unknown is that I do not know that! When I do not know, how can I ever say that is this or that? be it nothing or everything? be that " it exists " or " it does not exist " . All the Upanishads univocaly try to educate our ego to stop its habit of attempting to bring everything into the realm of its " known " . Therefore, I do not want to attempt to make any statements regarding anything that is not known to me - Soul, Self, God, etc. As everybody in this forum understand, they do not belong to the domain of one's ego or its colleagues mind and body! The idea of Nothing is the nothingness in one's perception ... Yada panchaavatishthante Gnyaanaani manasaa saha | Buddhishcha na vicheshatate taamaahuh paramaam gatim || The answer to a seeker's quest to appreciate THAT, the suggestion is to become nothing within - no images, no pretensions, no tendencies, no emotions, no relations, .... nothing but THAT. THAT remains nothing to one's perception as every unknown is nothing bu the nothing in one's perception. The idea of The Everything is that anything and everything including the nothing is based in THAT which makes everything possible being inherent in everything as THAT which can never be known and hence remain nothing within one's perception. Emptying myself to nothing by vomiting all my filth smeared in my desires, fears and all other emotions rooted in these two is what I mean by becoming The Nothing. Only when all the faculties have stopped their childish pranks of attempting to know anything, one attains THAT ... when all the faculties are paused, what is left in one's cognition? The Nothing. AGAIN, PL. DO NOT MAKE AN ATTEMPT TO EXPAND THIS TO ANYTHING BEYOND THE COGNITION. WE HAVE NO BUSINESS TO TALK ABOUT THAT AND HAVE NO RIGHTS TO DISPLAY ANY AUTHORITY OVER IT. Therefore, any authoritative statement that " THAT exists " is as sacrilegious as the claim that " THAT does not exist " . Existence is another concept confined in our perceptional limit ... then how can that be extended beyond? PLEASE DO NOT MAKE THIS MISTAKE. Andhantamam pravishanti ye asmbhutimupasate - One who rejects the idea of The Supreme as it remains unknown is verily ignorant having no clue of how his belief in his knowledge is misleading him. But at least he has a chance that he may see the limits of his understanding ability one day and leave the unknown alone. Tato bhuaya iva te tamo ye u sambhutyaam rataah - But, one who insists that The Supreme exists is a bigger fool with very little chance to appreciate his limitations because he believes even the unknown is known to him!! THEREFORE, my appeal to all is to not sacrilege the Yagnya that is going on in this auspicious forum ... the only thing that should be sacrificed into this fire is our egos, our ignorance ... NEVER our Shraddha. Vivada directly attacks our collective Shraddha. PLEASE do not entertain vivada. With Deep Respects to all. Naga Narayana. -- PRIOR POSTING Jay Shree Krishna IN ENGLISH I cannot clearly understand everyone's inner sentiments in English. But it appears that from your discussion, it is not going according to the group's intent. Moderator must be careful about this. One must remain alert that without engaging in too much discussion, to grab hold of the essence, and deeply understand it. In Saint's words it is therefore said that " Brother, now leave listening / reading / learning, and instead know, believe and accept it. The thing to know is the world, the thing to believe is God. Beyond those talks a sadhak has not much concern, that who said what? How they said it? Falling into this hassle, a sadhak must remain ever alert not to waste their own time, as well as, other's time. You all are intelligent, and educated.. in few words, one must understand more. Rameshji IN HINDI Mai English me Aap sabke pure bhav samjta nahi hu.Lekin lagta hai ki Aapki charch..es group ke udeshy ke anurup nahi lag rahi hai.Modretor ko yeh khyal rakhna chahiye.Jyada vad-vivad badhakar..sar bat ko grahan karne ke liye sajag rahana chahiye.Sant Vaani me esiliye kaha hoga ki " Bhai Aab sunana-sikhana chhodo...Aur Janana aur Manana swikar kar lo. Janana hai es jagat ke bare me,Manana hai Prabhu ko...jyada bato se sadhak ko matlab nahi ki kisne kya kaha?kaise kaha.Es panchayati me padkar apana aur dusaro ka samy kharab na ho yeh harek sadhak ko savdhani rakhani chahiye.Aap sab samjdar,Padhe-likhe log ho..thode me jyada samaj lena. Rameshji -------------------------------- Hari Om The Kathopanishad state - Chapter 1, Valli 3 , verses 10 and 11 - " There is " nothing " beyond Purusha " . The Upanishads are said to be the summary of Vedas. Shrimad Bhagvad Gita is considered as the " essence " of the Upanishads. Purusha is defined as Paramatma in Gita/Upanishads/Vedas. Purusha is also used for pure soul part in Jeeva. God is also known as Purushottam in Gita.(Gita 15:18). Gita also confirms the same vide Gita 2:16 ,3:42, 9:4, 15:18 and 7:19. (Combined reading) - there may be more verses confirming this.. " Naham prakashah sarvasyam " is in Gita 7:25. Reference reg " avyaktam " is in Gita 9:4 . Refer also " udasinvadasino " term used in BG 14:23 (Like an udasin- when there is nothing except God how can only " udasin " word be used- it has to be " like " an udasin !) This reply is pursuant to Vimalji's query to Dr Goli. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B My dandavats to all in this forum, My sincere apologies to anyone who may have felt my inquiries were out of line in my last posting......I was trying with extreme caution to present my question in a non-personal, general way, but as I am often a tactless person, can understand that I have failed again. My question was meant to highlight the point that if we believe truly that everything is ultimately nothing, (as indicated in this quotation, " --- thus Nothing is Everything, even beyond Purusha. Our Krishna said 'Jagadavyaktamurtin a' I am unmanifest Divinity. 'Naaham Prakasaha' I am not manifest. He is beyond Purusha - NOTHING " I certainly hope that Anjaneyulu Goli felt no offense, indeed, I am certain that he has the depth of understanding to know that he is not the material body, nor any designation applied to it.....hence, I sincerely doubt if he was offended. A man in knowledge is not disturbed by any reference to the body being significant or not. Still, I thank Vyasaji for pointing out to me that I should be more sensitive. My point was not meant to denigrate anyone, so again, if there was appearance of such, my profuse apologies. On the vein of the same discussion, in his presentation the good Dr. has said, final word, " nothing " ....after the statement, " He is beyond Purusha " . Please kindly explain to me, Vyasa, what this means. I have no problem with the point that we are here trying to understand a religious path, how to live life according to Gita, however, you must accept that it disturbs me greatly to have it presented that the Supreme Absolute Truth, Sri Krsna, who has an eternal form composed of bliss and knowledge, who has a home known as Goloka Vrndavan, who is beyond the Purusa, can be equated with nothingness. If you think that perhaps the doctor was offended by referring to him with the title " nothing " , think about how it must hurt the Supreme Person to be thought of as such. Sincerely, with best wishes, Mahalaksmi Dasi Vimalji - Namaste I present the following source you are pleased to know: ' Naaham prakashha ' Gita Ch 7 Sl 25 Veiled by My Yogamaya, I am not manifest to all. Hence these ignorant folk fail to recognise Me, the unborn and imperishable Supreme Deity 'Jagadavyaktamoorthina' Gita Ch 9 Sl 4 The whole of this universe is permeated by Me as unmanifest Divinity, and all beings rest on the idea within Me. Therefore, really speaking, I am not present in them. Anjaneyulu Goli -------------------------------- Dear readers, Well, I am going to add something to this discussion. It is not wrong to share a dream, is it? I can't tell you who I really am, because I don't know who I am....I think I am this body.....but this dream is really interesting. I was in a room with lots of other sadhaks. I like the word devotees. My guru was sitting up front, only I don't think my guru knew about this dream. I think it was Krsna, appearing as guru. Anyway, he asked me, " What is more dangerous, the poison in the hand of the rabbit, or Nothing? " (Krsna knows all about Alice in Wonderland) I replied, quickly, " Why of course, the poison in the hand of the rabbit, because " nothing " does not exist. " The entire room of devotees responded back to me, " No, " Nothing " is more powerful " . I turned to Krsna-disguised-as-guru....and I gave an inquiring look. To which the response came back, " Nothing is more powerful. Because Alice believed in it. " I think Krsna was challenging me.....do I want to believe in " Nothing " ? I can if I want. It is a powerful, powerful state of mind.......I ask myself many times......what could cause me to believe that there is no longer any point to living? What type of offenses would I commit, that my consciousness would lose track of trying to attain a level of purity, lose track of trying to aspire for being Godly, forget about entering into a realm of eternal lila with Sri Sri Radha and Krsna? etc etc. And lose track of all the times I have seen Krsna in my dreams, inviting me to be near to Him? These are questions I ask often. Thank you for listening to me. Sri Radhe Shirley May - It is only our ego which makes us important. Otherwise we are nothing. We are hollow inside. We are nothing and we dissolve into nothingness, when we die.Unless we realise it we will keep on making mistakes, which will result in endless births and deaths. The spiritual path is only to save our souls. Hari Shanker Deo - PRIOR POSTING Hari Om Neither this web site has advocated any " nothingness " nor any " somethingness " nor has any Sadhak talked about any nothingness or any somethingness- without any context.. We are here to discuss about Gita and religious way of living life. It is in my humble view that you have raised a topic out of " nothing " and used that topic for passing improper personal comments upon contributors to the deliberations. This site is definitely not meant for exhibition of such behavior where we can injudiciously call any person to be hypocrite or question as to how he is using title " Dr " before his name or throwing mud at any person's way of living. None is entitled to exhibit such conduct. Dr is part of a name. Does not the other party also has a name after a divine person of Sanatan Dharma? What right then he/she has to use that name? In the recent past also similar absurd, comments were passed even for a Saint of the class of Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj. He was called as a hypocrite, dishonest, false and what not. Due to continued similar conduct, I must state my views. I hope the Moderators will be as kind to me as they were with this particular sadhak- in publishing this note.. Is such conduct proper? Is it fair? If some one does not agree to any view point, he/she has choice /option of humbly disagreeing and withdrawing from deliberations. Which religion or Preceptor teaches us to humiliate in such a brazen manner any contributors ? This has so far been for genuine sadhaks, has it not? Who asked a comparison between two countries? Did the discussion warrant that? It must be understood that such person not only lowers himself/herself before such an elite family type satsanga forum, but he/she also brings to disrepute his/her siksha/ diksha Gurus and the very organisation to which she/he claims to be belonging. One must never forget that if you raise one accusing finger towards any one, 3 fingers of the same hand get directed towards you- automatically. Sanatan Dharma/Vedas never teach such conduct. Dr. Anjaneyulu Goli and Naga Narayanaji are entitled to an apology. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ------------------------------ Dear Sadaks, Putting Dr in front of name is identification of the body. More over Dr means profession not the soul. Sri Krishnah mean anadham. Sri is respect to our Bagavan. Plain Krishna may mean somebody by name Krishna. Dr.Anjeneyalu put Dr prefix before his name by habbit. Dr profession has nothing to do with spritual matters. Dear Sadaks please avoid finding fault with one an another. See Bagavan in everybody. There is NOTHING wrong Right in identification. Bagavan in Geetha says in many places Partha or Arjuna. It is only identification to who Bagavan speaking to. For Bagavan Partha or Duryodana are equal to HIM. B.Sathyanarayan ------------------------------- Narayan Narayan Mateshwari jee IN ENGLISH That which changes, is unreal (non-existent, perishable, moving towards destruction) and That which does not change, is real (existent,imperishable)(Gita 2:16) IN HINDI Jho bhadalta hai uski saata naahi hoti or Jho naahi bhadalta usi ki saata hoti hai(Gita 2:16) (ramchandra) - Dear Sadhaks, I was comtemplating on Vivekachudami of Adi Sankara`s. My friend not intereseted in spiritual matters asked me, " What are you contemplating as you could not recognise my presence " . I said, " NOTHING " . Does it mean real. I was contemplating on SOMETHING. Going beyond conscience level (without Pragniya) is Samadhi state, that which like Sadashiva Bramendral/yogi Raj could do. But these saints came back to normal state after many days. How? They were with Paramatma but though their functioning they were beyond senses. During Maha Pralaya (final destruction) it says everything gets destroyed with souls abiding in Paramatma. Again when creation commences these souls take forms. This is said in Upanishads. So there is NO stage called " Nothing " exists. But the word " nothing " is misunderstood. Nothing more to discuss rather than keep saying " Om Namo Narayana " . B.Sathyanarayan My dandavats to all in this forum, In response to Dr. Anjaneyuyu Goli, I would like to respond from a point of view of one who has certainly studied the Vedas, but not with the ability to translate, or even to know the various different meanings which can be attributed to any given word, which causes the scenario of, depending on who is translating,, a totally different meaning being gleaned depending on the mood/interpretation of the translator. So, my response to you, Dr, is, if you truly believe that nothingness is the ultimate, why do you put the title " Dr " in front of your name? Why not go by Anjaneyuyu Nothing? Indeed, with no disrespect intended, I ask you honestly, isn't it a bit of hypocrisy to use a title which sets you just a niche or two above others, while presenting that nothingness, which has no social distinctions, is your belief system? Truly, it may appeal to some (I am not saying anyone in particular, it is a question more than an accusation) that they can hide behind a convenient philosophy of nothingness, which allows no sense of impending guilt if one behaves in a misdirected or selfish, or just plain sinful fashion. But if an individual truly is in touch with Supersoul, I believe that he or she will not accept a translation of the holy scriptures which guides one to nothingness. Because no one can live this path in this life. No one can sit down on the sidewalk, stop eating, drinking, interacting, striving for recognition amongst one's fellow human beings, etc. So, when I hear presentations which are concluding with this idea, my only thought is that it is not an honest path. Those who choose it do not live it. It is virtually impossible in the west, even to remain seated as an Avadhut, such as Rsabhadeva did in the Bhagavatam.....(He lay on the ground, like a python, and if food entered his mouth, He ate....if nothing came to Him, He fasted.....but He also was able to make His stool smell like roses, because He is the Supreme Personality of Godhead incarnated). Anyway, if someone were on such a detached level in this country, he would be subject to being thrown in jail. A truly realized person would not allow himself to be the object of such offensive actions, knowing the offenders would suffer horrible reactions. He would not put himself in such a position.....but in India, certainly one could live in the streets, waiting for whatever mercy of the Lord came to him, and be left alone. Personally, I do not accept that even this conduct, of the avadhut's, is a state of " nothingness " . I have understood from my teachers, and my studying of the Vedas, that those whose activities in this world are minimal, but are either absorbed in chanting the Lord's names, or in trance, are still absorbed within in a realm of total activity, a state of samadhi where the soul has left this encagement and is interacting in a transcendental world, beyond time and space. In this transcendental world, described in the Brahma Samhita, there is no time.Not even the passing of one moment; it remains in the eternal, undivided present. Brahma Samhita gives detailed description of this transcendental world, which is full of Surabhi cows, which fulfill all desires, where unlimited wish-fulfilling trees fulfill any aspiration of the devotee (who's only desires are to continue engaging in loving devotional exchanges with the Lord and other sadhaks) where light is full of knowledge and bliss, and where the supreme spiritual substance which comprises all things is relishable (cintamani). This is a world which is not " nothing " . It may sound like a " fairy tale " to some, but I truly believe that fairies are real. If you or others don't believe in fairies, or in Goloka Vrndavana, which is presented in the Brahma Samhita, then you may have to keep trying to believe in nothing. Personally, I feel that " nothingness " philosophy is a trap, and I pray that any sadhaks reading this kindly bless me that I may have the strength to always resist the temptation of " nothingness " . I feel it is an excuse for giving up loving devotional activites, such as sravanam, kirtanam, visnoh smaranam (hearing, chanting, and remembering the Lord). My respects to all, Mahalaksmi Dasi Respected Dr. Anjaneyulu Goli Jay Shri Krushn Pl. refer to foll. text in your reply. Can you pl. help me to know the source of the same. Our Krishna said 'Jagadavyaktamurtina' I am unmanifest Divinity. 'Naaham Prakasaha' I am not manifest. He is beyond Purusha - NOTHING Jay Shri Krushn Vimal PRIOR POSTING The 'Challenge' is the best question " Pariprasna " . The Answer is - This philosophical precept of 'Nothing' is 'Everything' , beyond the Purusha. The Kathopanishad answers the challenge Beyond the senses are the objects beyond the objects is the mind beyond the mind is the intellect beyond the intellect the great Atman beyond the Atman the unmanifest beyond the unmanifest - the Purusha beyond the Purusha - there is Nothing this is the end, the Supreme goal ---- thus Nothing is Everything, even beyond Purusha. Our Krishna said 'Jagadavyaktamurtina' I am unmanifest Divinity. 'Naaham Prakasaha' I am not manifest. He is beyond Purusha - NOTHING Dr. Anjaneyulu Goli ---------------------------- Dear Mahalakshmi Dasiji, When ever we use the word ' I ' mostly we mean the body or the mind or the intellect. This is because we accept ourselves as one of these. In other words, we identify ourselves as one of these. Rarely do we mean 'Atma' being the ' I '. In that sense, one may say that as distinct from soul ' I ' exists. Having realised God, there is no ' I ' as earlier percieved (Body, Mind or Intellect). Now, the identity of this ' I ' in case of a 'Gyani' merges with the soul. It is like a drop of water is different from the ocean only so far as it has not merged with it. Having fallen in and merging with the ocean, there is no more separate identity of the drop of water. As distict from this, in 'Bhakti', the Bhakta wants to retain his separate identity not as this body, mind or intellect but as 'Sevak' of his God. His identity then changes from his wordly identity to his 'Adhyatmic' identity. I wonder if I have been able to clarify your thoughts. My request to fellow Sadhaks is that instead of answering a question by asking another question or challenging the questioner, it would be better if we think from the point of view of the questioner and appreciate her point of view before we embark upon obsessively answering the question. We will never be able to do justice to the question unless we try to put ourselves into the shoe of the questioner and think from his point of view as to why he may have asked the question. A.H.Dalmia ---------------------------- For directly viewing and realizing this sort of " Nothingness " under discussion, one has to look towards the clear sky with absolutely a vacant look, though at the same time trying to very deeply perceive what is happening there,within minutes it will be seen that there are streams of infinitisimal bubbles which appear from nowhere and disappear to nowhere moving with tremendous speed. What are these bubbles? wherefrom these originate and where do they go? Perhaps they do not at all originate and also do not at all disintegrate. This close and continuous observation may lead to further realization which we go on hunting in our mind for birth after birth to remind at the end " amon manab jonom roilo potit, abad korle folto shona " (such a human birth has been wasted, had it been properly nourished gold could have been ripped). Barin Chatterjee ------------------------------ Dear Sadaks, The conscience level of Ego, desire, Anger etc completely vanishes for a person who meditated/introgated and found that everything around is temporary and that which is Sat- Chit- Anandam is permanent.That person remains silent (even does not meditate) and wittnesses everything around with smile on his face. He has very clearly understood he is not the body but Athuman and NOTHING important to him, even his death. Examples: 1)Jada Bharatha was to beheaded as human sacrifice. Bagavath says-He face became like just bloomed lotus. For him NOTHING matters. 2)Tukaram had vision of Sri Vishnu inviting him to Vaikunt. He had 2 small kids and wife. NOTHING was important to him than Bagavan call. There was no feeling about his family as he knew that his family belongs to Jaganath` s and not his. Total surrender. As long as he was with his family he never failed in his Karma. But when call came from Divineess NOTHING was important to him. 3)Ramana Rishi in Thiruvanaamalai left home at age of 12 reached Arunachalleswarar Temple. NOTHING was important to him other than self realization. 4) Valmiki left his family and sat in meditation. NOTHING was important to him than Rama NAAM. 5) Puranderdoss was a king of himself with 9 Crore wealth at that time and was called Nava Koti Narayanan. A vision of Sri Vishnu made him to leave everything behind and go as Bikshu. NOTHING was important to him, as he knew very well that everything around has to left one day on Anthim Yatra. Why wait till that day, do it today, use the body equipment for realization. He did not know whether he will get next meal. But NOTHING around was important to him. 6) In Neveli near chennai, there lived a person by name Vallalar very recently during British rule. He disappeared in presence of so many Govt official. NOTHING was important to him. 7) Eknath Maharaj used to say that to day is the day for Nama Sankeethan, tomorrow is not in my hands. So there was glory in his face that everyone saw. For him NOTHING was interesting around him. Sadaks might be knowing about a muslim who spitted on Ekanath several time same day but Ekanath did not unter a word, but said it is Bagavan Leela. NOTHING disturbed him or NOTHING was there for him to get angry. There is Paramathuma- Easwar (Shiva)- Brama Lok- Ganderva Lok etc 14 worlds, beyond is Sri Chakra (Refer Sounderiya Lehari) and Vaikunt For an ant the knowledge is limited only to area it lives. So also for ignorant persons. For the realized one knowledge is limitless, he can converse in any language, he sees Bhraman in everything, he undergoes any torcher silently with smile as he knows NOTHING can trouble him. E.g. Prahalad B.Sathyanarayan -------------------------------- PRIOR POSTING Dear Maha Dasi, I am watching you to learn the great qualities in your name as well as your outlook ... You are already there ... that is why you could call yourself as a Dasi (a Maha Dasi for me to practice) ... The Nothing is the state of Bhakti as such ... I know I use this term a lot in my responses ... Your doubt is an excellent since that wields the power of annihilating all other doubts categorically. I will make an attempt to address it in a series of limitted appreciations that I could make on The Avadhuta Gita ... Respects. Naga Narayana -------------------------------- Jai Hanuman Mahalakshmi Mata Jee ! You have ended your question by a challenge ! Unnecessarily !! Hence I must challenge you Jee - necessarily- Jee !!! I challenge you Mahalakshmi Mata Jee to find out(please search, search and search !!! Jee Jee !) and present before sadhaks a single statement made by any sadhak at any point of time where he/she has stated that " soul has no existence " . Sadhaks are not mad and insane people who can write so - none has written so in my view, then what to talk of Sadhaks of this esteemed Gita Talk Group Jee ?? Tamma Bhaiyya (My Dear Brother Naga Narayanaji) once or twice referred regarding " Nothingness " but never with reference to soul/self/Paramatma. Tamma Bhaiyya was 100 percent right there. How can a learned man like Tamma Bhaiyya say " soul/self does not exist? " . From his writings his deep knowledge of Upanishads is abundantly clear Jee! By the way, Jee ! All others except individual soul-self/God are " nothing " Jee!! Jee, My second challenge to you, Mahalakshmi Jee, is to prove that everything except Self/Paramatma is not " nothing " . I say for the first time it is " nothing " . Now I say, Jee, that all balance (except individual soul and God ) including mind, ego, intellect, body, world (inert) is nothing-nothing-nothing Jee. I dare you to prove me wrong. I challenge you on that. Come On ! I wait for your reply. " NASATO VIDYATE BHAVO, NABHAVO VIDYATE SATAH " (Gita 2:16) " The Unreal has no existence and the real never ceases to be; the truth of both these, has been perceived by seers of truth. " (Gita 2:16) Come On ! Let us here from you Jee !! Namaste Jee Jee Jee Shashikala - dear fellow sadhaks namaskaram ., even i was having questions on nothingness , and in due course the answer i got for myself is , our existence is not small , even in nothingness it cannot be expressed as small , EVEN WHEN WE ARE NOTHINGNESS , THAT NOTHINGNESS EXISTS , AND SO EXISTENCE IS ETERNAL AND SO WE ARE ETERNAL INDEED . PRANAMS TO GURUJI. ( kindly forgive if anything is wrong in my quote ) " aravanan karan " Let us put it this way. What shall be nothingness? Let us call it as something akin to the state, devoid of everything. No thing, every thing. I would suggest a perspecrive, which shall say that devoid of all emperical aspects, contents. This could further mean that, devoid of all involvement, or attachement to and of, mundane world, emperical world. In other words, it is a state of complete detachment, and even when one goes on living mundane life, it shall be a life without atttachment, living unattached, as in the case of the 'Jivan Mukta'. Precisely this shall be the concept of a " nishkama karma " . With this, one goes into the state of " Tyena Tyaktena Punjita " also. Adi Sankara also speaks in the same line. Jagat is mithya, illusory, which is so because of changing matter. Buddha says the same too, 'Kshanika Vada'. Now the very property of soul is 'Pure Consciousness' and the idea of pure consciousness is minus and mundane contents. it is a consciousness minus any emperical content. perhaps this could be the state of nothing. Visharad Sharma (deleted some paragraphs, to stay aligned with current discussion - from Gita Talk moderator) -------------------------------- I totally agree with Mahalaxmi Dasi. Every soul is significant. If any one hurts that significane, in the future, he himself have to suffer. This is called ATTITUDE of life - it ought to be POSITIVE. Brahma Mehrotra Let us please stick to Mahalaksmi Dasi ji's Hinduism as below. Nothingness is a Buddhist concept not Hindu, nor it is the illusion philosophy of Adi Shankra, surely. This email thread is about Gita Talk and there is nothing in the Gita about nothingness, rather it is about everything - everything that is glorious and great - but only with a condition for Karma that it is done for God so that the Grace of God would absorb it and make it nothing. This is the HINDU concept and from the beginning of creation per the Hindu scripture we have the same concept, for instance, Lord Shiva absorbed the poison from the ocean churning and so on to save mankind ---- anil bhanot GUIDELINES FOR POSTING A RESPONSE: 1. The group is focused on the Holy Gitaji, therefore, only responses which further clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will be posted. 2. Making reference of Gitaji shloka is highly encouraged - at least once in the response. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to substantiate your response. 3. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting sadhaka's time. Under no circustance the answer should be limited to half a book page, at the most 3-4 paragraphs. 4. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only. 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other organizations (we do not have the bandwidth to review links to determine if content is appropriate for distribution). 7. Complete reproduction of texts from any book is strongly discouraged, however partial cut - paste is acceptable and references may be made of the book or author(but not links to other sites). 8. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone number, address etc. 9. Please use appropriate judgement and only address the response to a particular individual, where it makes sense to do so. 10. Due to the large readership, only those responses will be posted which are in line with the general philosophy of taking Shrimad Bhagavad Gita as the reference. 11. Moderator will reject any content that does not meet guidelines. However, for expediency, moderator at his discretion, may modify / delete portions of the posting for mispelling, wordiness that is irrelevant to the overall core discussion, personal information, opinions / feelings etc. that do not align with guidelines. 12. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use of only Sanskrit words, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit bracketed wherever possible. 13. Any personal remarks over the knowledge of any sadhak or about the stage at which any sadhak is standing in his quest / sadhna / spiritual journey - must not be included in your posting. Also, there should not be any sarcasm towards fellow sadhaks in this spiritual learning and sharing. 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