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Dear Sadhakas, This passage has moved me deeply. One should still

think about the fact that abortion is wrong. Firstly when a woman or

a man, yes a man can be raped by a woman for his seed. If raped, the

fact is the baby formed is not at fault. One does not have the right

to kill a child just because of that fact.

 

QUESTION 1: What would be such a case when rape occurs and the

child is aborted?

your comments please. Prashanth

---------------------

Dear Sir I read the SADAK dt 26 september 2008 regularly . I read

the following verse in your letter dated 27/09/08.

QUESTION 2: In the Paaraashersmriti - " Yat paapam brahmahattyaa

dvigunam garbhapaatane; Praayashchitam ne tasyaasti tatsyaasyaago

vidhiyate " Can you correctly guide me as to where do I find this

writing below, also does Gita make any reference to this? I wish to

quote it in my meetings in the villages against the female feticide.

(aborting female fetus)

thanks, Kindly do clarify and oblige,

prem khullar

-------------------------------

:Shree Hari:

Ram Ram

 

26th September, 2008, Friday

Ashwin Krishna Dvaadashi, Vikram Samvat 2065, Shukravar

 

" Mana jaane sab baat, jaan boojh avaguna kare

kyon chaahat kusalaat, ker deepak koonye pade. "

 

At present times such terrible and fearsome sins are taking place,

that simply by listening, one's hair stands on ends, eyes become

filled with tears, and heart is deeply moved ! Ram Ram Ram, what

terrible unjustice, what fearsome sins are taking place, but your

attention is not going there at all ! Human body is said to be the

rarest of all all forms of life -

" Durlabho maanushyo deho dehinaam shunabhangurah " (Srimad Bhagavat

11:2:29)

" Labdhvaa sudurlabhmidam bahusambhvaante,

maanushyamarthdamnityampeeh dheerah " (Srimad Bhagavat 11:9:29)

" bade bhaag maanushya tanu paava. Sur durlabh sab granthnhi

gaava. " (Manas 7:43:7)

 

Such a rare human body, is being destroyed at the very beginning.

It is being cut up along with the jeev, and this is such a great

offense, it is such injustice, it is a terrible sin! My mind feels

immense pain, it is feeling great distress, but what to do! The

human body by which one can realize God, to not allow that human

body to even be born, and to destroy it, it is the ultimate sin !

To not allow some soul the opportunity to receive a human body, to

not allow that human body to even be born, to take medication from

the beginning and destroy it, through abortion or any other means.

One has stooped so low - not only to think about going to hell

themselves, but at the same time not even allowing another soul the

opportunity for upliftment, for benediction ! Now what is one to

do? Who to share this with? And who will listen to my point? Is

there no one listening ?

 

For ascetics it has been written in the scriptures to not travel

much during " Chaturmaas " (four months in a year during the rains).

Because during these month, due to the rains, every seed grows into

a sappling, which later grows into a tree. By extensive traveling,

walking, these seedlings come under the feet and are destroyed.

Therefore during this four month period, the ascetics do not walk

and roam around much, so that unknowingly no violence is done to any

life form. In Bhagavat it has been said, that if you wish to gain

victory over violence, then reduce the movement of the body -

" hinsaa kaayaadhyaneehayaa. " (Bhagavat 7:15:23). When there is

so much thought put into non-violence around immovable things, then

what to speak on the subject of movable beings? But nowadays, the

best of all movable life forms, better than even the devatas, the

human body, is being contemplated for destruction, what a state of

affairs we are in ! (to be continued)

 

From " Saadhan, Sudhaa, Sindhu " pg 946 in Hindi by Swami Ramsukhdasji

 

For full online discourses in Hindi, please visit Swami

Ramsukhdasji's website. http://www.swamiramsukhdasji.org

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Guest guest

Guest guest

Posted
Posted

Dear Sadhakas, This passage has moved me deeply. One should still

think about the fact that abortion is wrong. Firstly when a woman or

a man, yes a man can be raped by a woman for his seed. If raped, the

fact is the baby formed is not at fault. One does not have the right

to kill a child just because of that fact.

 

QUESTION 1: What would be such a case when rape occurs and the

child is aborted?

your comments please. Prashanth

---------------------

Dear Sir I read the SADAK dt 26 september 2008 regularly . I read

the following verse in your letter dated 27/09/08.

QUESTION 2: In the Paaraashersmriti - " Yat paapam brahmahattyaa

dvigunam garbhapaatane; Praayashchitam ne tasyaasti tatsyaasyaago

vidhiyate " Can you correctly guide me as to where do I find this

writing below, also does Gita make any reference to this? I wish to

quote it in my meetings in the villages against the female feticide.

(aborting female fetus)

thanks, Kindly do clarify and oblige,

prem khullar

-------------------------------

NEW POSTING

 

Hare Krishna

 

Answer to Question 1

 

Prashantji, I am pasting the answer of your question from Swamiji's

book " Sadhan-Sudha-Sindhu " page 960.

 

 

 

Q. If it becomes compulsory for woman to abort the baby due to an

infection, then what should she do?

 

A. She will definitely incur the sin of abortion. For protecting

woman people abort the baby but this should not be done. What has to

happen will indeed happen. If the woman has to die then even after

abortion she will die. If she is destined to live longer then she

will not die even if she chooses not to abort. Whatever may be the

cause of death, it will only arrive when the time is up. So abortion

should never be done.

 

 

 

Q. Should abortion be carried out in case an unmarried woman becomes

pregnant?

 

A. That boy and girl should marry who had pre-marital sex. If the

marriage is not possible then also abortion should not be done. The

girl should nurture that child and give him/her to an orphanage or

give it to someone who wants to adopt a child.

 

If a woman is raped then the rapist will incur terrible sin. If the

woman has derived pleasure from that then she will also incur sin.

All sins emanate from sensual desire. So the amount of sin will be

in direct proportion with the pleasure derived by that woman. If the

woman did not take any pleasure then she will not incur sin.

 

If an unmarried woman is pregnant then her parents will also incur

sin for their carelessness. It is a must for parents that they take

utmost care of their daughter and not give her excessive

independence.

 

Q. If society comes to know about it then she will become infamous

and no one will marry her?

 

A. After committing sin one has to bear defamation. Abortion,

suicide and running from home. In comparison to these three sins,

it's better to bear the defamation. If no one is willing to marry

her then she should reside in her father's house and spend her life

in worshipping God. This will be penance for her which will destroy

her sins.

 

Q. If a married woman is raped and she becomes pregnant then what

should be done?

 

A. It is better for her to be quiet. If husband comes to know about

it then he should also remain quiet. The couple's slience is best

for them. In reality, one should always be attentive from the

beginning so that such kind of situations do not arise. My

suggestion is not for abortion because it is an ultimate sin

(MahaPaap).

 

Answer to Question 2

 

Shri Khullarji, you are indeed doing great social service by

rescuing women from committing sins like abortion etc. This society

needs people like you.

 

Gita doesn't specifically mention about abortion. It strikes the

root of sin i.e. desire and God has spoken at length on it. Read

Gita (3-36, 37 and 16-21, 23, 24)

 

Premji, Gitapress has published 2 books.

 

Matrishakti Ka Ghor Apman (Code 420)

Desh Ki Vartaman Dash Aur Uska Parinam (Code 617)

Check the details at www.gitapress.org. You can use these 2 books

for your purpose.

 

These 2 books are also included in a 1000 page book Sadhan-Sudha-

Sindhu (Code 465). It is a compilation of more than 40 books of

Swamiji's teachings.

 

Thanks,

 

Hare Krishna

Varun P. Paprunia

-------------------------------

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

From Gita Talk Moderator:

 

" Sadhan, Sudha, Sindhu " in Hindi by Swami Ramsukhdasji, can be

viewed online for free at:

 

http://www.swamiramsukhdasji.org/swamijibooks/pustak/pustak1/html/sad

hansudhasindhu/main.html

Ram Ram

 

-------------------------------

:Shree Hari:

Ram Ram

 

26th September, 2008, Friday

Ashwin Krishna Dvaadashi, Vikram Samvat 2065, Shukravar

 

" Mana jaane sab baat, jaan boojh avaguna kare

kyon chaahat kusalaat, ker deepak koonye pade. "

 

At present times such terrible and fearsome sins are taking place,

that simply by listening, one's hair stands on ends, eyes become

filled with tears, and heart is deeply moved ! Ram Ram Ram, what

terrible unjustice, what fearsome sins are taking place, but your

attention is not going there at all ! Human body is said to be the

rarest of all all forms of life -

" Durlabho maanushyo deho dehinaam shunabhangurah " (Srimad Bhagavat

11:2:29)

" Labdhvaa sudurlabhmidam bahusambhvaante,

maanushyamarthdamnityampeeh dheerah " (Srimad Bhagavat 11:9:29)

" bade bhaag maanushya tanu paava. Sur durlabh sab granthnhi

gaava. " (Manas 7:43:7)

 

Such a rare human body, is being destroyed at the very beginning.

It is being cut up along with the jeev, and this is such a great

offense, it is such injustice, it is a terrible sin! My mind feels

immense pain, it is feeling great distress, but what to do! The

human body by which one can realize God, to not allow that human

body to even be born, and to destroy it, it is the ultimate sin !

To not allow some soul the opportunity to receive a human body, to

not allow that human body to even be born, to take medication from

the beginning and destroy it, through abortion or any other means.

One has stooped so low - not only to think about going to hell

themselves, but at the same time not even allowing another soul the

opportunity for upliftment, for benediction ! Now what is one to

do? Who to share this with? And who will listen to my point? Is

there no one listening ?

 

For ascetics it has been written in the scriptures to not travel

much during " Chaturmaas " (four months in a year during the rains).

Because during these month, due to the rains, every seed grows into

a sappling, which later grows into a tree. By extensive traveling,

walking, these seedlings come under the feet and are destroyed.

Therefore during this four month period, the ascetics do not walk

and roam around much, so that unknowingly no violence is done to any

life form. In Bhagavat it has been said, that if you wish to gain

victory over violence, then reduce the movement of the body -

" hinsaa kaayaadhyaneehayaa. " (Bhagavat 7:15:23). When there is

so much thought put into non-violence around immovable things, then

what to speak on the subject of movable beings? But nowadays, the

best of all movable life forms, better than even the devatas, the

human body, is being contemplated for destruction, what a state of

affairs we are in ! (to be continued)

 

From " Saadhan, Sudhaa, Sindhu " pg 946 in Hindi by Swami Ramsukhdasji

 

For full online discourses in Hindi, please visit Swami

Ramsukhdasji's website. http://www.swamiramsukhdasji.org

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Guest guest

Guest guest

Posted
Posted

Dear Sadhakas, This passage has moved me deeply. One should still

think about the fact that abortion is wrong. Firstly when a woman or

a man, yes a man can be raped by a woman for his seed. If raped, the

fact is the baby formed is not at fault. One does not have the right

to kill a child just because of that fact.

 

QUESTION 1: What would be such a case when rape occurs and the

child is aborted?

your comments please. Prashanth

---------------------

Dear Sir I read the SADAK dt 26 september 2008 regularly . I read

the following verse in your letter dated 27/09/08.

QUESTION 2: In the Paaraashersmriti - " Yat paapam brahmahattyaa

dvigunam garbhapaatane; Praayashchitam ne tasyaasti tatsyaasyaago

vidhiyate " Can you correctly guide me as to where do I find this

writing below, also does Gita make any reference to this? I wish to

quote it in my meetings in the villages against the female feticide.

(aborting female fetus)

thanks, Kindly do clarify and oblige,

prem khullar

-------------------------------

NEW POSTING

 

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

As our scriptures says - if we believe that we are the Atma (Soul,

Spirit, Individual Consciousness), and if we also believe that human

life is the rarest form of birth (1 of 8.4 million species in this

Universe), and that only in this human form of life, one can attain

freedom from all bondages, one can realize their true nature, one

can attain salvation, one can realize eternal bliss, one can develop

love of God… etc., then common sense says that what Swamiji says is

without any doubt to be accepted - i.e. we have no right to stop

the evolution of a Soul, by creating roadblocks in it's evolution

cycle. This roadblock that we place on another souls' progress, to

not allow it an opportunity for salvation, will definitely have it's

consequences and is a grave sin. Most of the times, we sin due to

desire for our own happiness, self protection, comforts, betterment,

selfish reasons, and if we look at it from that perspective, also

the reason for abortions are also mostly for the same reasons, for a

little convenience and happiness, we are destroying another life,

and not allowing it to be born as a human, a soul that could have

realized the Self / God, and attain salvation etc.

 

Swamiji has said it is briefly addressed in Gita, under demoniac

tendencies. Gita 16:9 " Prabhavantyu grakarmaanah kshayaaya

jagatohitaah. " " Not believing in the eternal soul, the demoniac

natured appear as enemies of the world, for its destruction. " Gita

16:9

Unknowingly we destroy and kill helpless lives, and are hoping the

we will be benefited. How can we be benefited? How can we attain

salvation?

" Jaan-jaanker mook, asamarth jivon ki hatyaa karte ho aur caahete ho

ki hamaaraa bhallaa ho jaaye; kaise ho jaayegaa? kalyaan kaise ho

jaayegaa ?

 

For their selfish motives, such demoniac people indulge in violence,

murder and usurpation etc., without thinking of the pain, which they

inflict upon others.

" Dharmasarvasva suno, aur sunker dhaaran kar lo. Jo aacharan apnese

pratikool ho, usko dusero ke prati mat karo. "

 

Looking at a broader more Universal perspective, who truly takes

care of the 8.4 millions species? Do we? What arrogance to think

that we alone have the right and the burden of responsibility for

that conceived fetus? In many countries, one has to wait for years

and pay a huge amount, to adopt a child. Our ego and selfishness is

causing us to not give this opportunity to another soul and to

instead sin.

 

Not only that, many women who visited Swamiji after having undergone

several abortions, found their bodies to be significantly weakened,

undergoing several irreversible health problems. (I am truly

unaware of the medical and health implications, as this is based

only on experiences / problems that women shared with Swamiji).

 

After listening to Swamiji / reading his thoughts from books for a

number of years, after listening to the way He responded to question

and answers, there was never a question that he could not answer to

one's satisfaction. He had thought about everything he shared,

deeply for a long time, before he even uttered a word or stated

something firmly. In my opinion, Swamiji and all the major

religions of the world that believe in pro-life cannot be wrong!

 

Hope this helps.

Meera Das

Ram Ram

-------------------------------

Sanity and Sanctity of Birth-Control and Abortion

 

Many religions are committed to the propaganda of the idea of anti-

abortion and anti-birth-control strongly even in the so-called

advanced societies such as West. I strongly advocate that this is an

extremely lopsided vision from both social as well as natural

persepctives. By the way, spirituality has nothing to do with it!

 

We hear a lot like " birth is God's Grace and hence we should not

intefere; any such intereference is the greed, selfishness and

arrogance of humans against God's Grace " . I agree with it completely

ONLY IF it is also appreciated in tandem that " death is also God's

Grace and hence we should not interfere with that as well " . Death is

part of the creation as much as the birth. Is it OK to exercise our

ego to interfere with THAT when we are trying all we could do to

avoid/postpone the death? Isn't it the same greed and arrogance in

action in this case as well? Are we not disgracing ourselves by not

believing God's will in our death??

 

My suggestion to the birth-promoters is, " do not take a single pill

to interfere with God's will in the deseases, aging as well as in

death. Then, you are entitled to claim that one should not

interefere with God's will. " Taking all medicinal help to promote

our survival rate and life span on one hand and rejecting the same

for birth control on the other hand is hypocracy. Such attitude is

utterly (1) anti-nature resulting in lopsided population growth of

one single species on this earth; and (2) anti-society resulting in

undue stress of life demands overwhelming the resources. As far as

death control is excercised, one should allow the birth control to

balance the act in any soceity. That is social sanity and that is

natural sanctity.

 

Again, promoting one's material life on this earth is not at all the

agenda of Bhagavad Gita. The agenda is to cleanse the life we have

already taken … to learn how to live it well and how to leave it as

well. That does not remove any of our social responsibilities and

natural obligations. One can get liberated from the social

responsibilities by accepting the nature – birth and death alike. On

the other hand, one cannot get liberated from the natural

obligations till one lives.

 

Also, abusing the spiritual texts for social promotion is incorrect

and can lead to become frantically religious and religiously

fanatic. Bhagavaan Vyaasa advocates to never preach spirituality to

one who cannot appreciate it for one with half-baked knowledge will

lead to natural catastrophies such as population explosion which

eventually culminates in social catastrophies such as wars.

 

Na buddhibhedam janayet agnyaanaam karmasanginaam |

Joshayet sarva karmaani vidvaanyuktassamaacharan ||

 

For social issues such as abortion one should adapt common sense and

social awareness that reflects the circumstantial reality. If the

woman is forced to bear a feutus against her will, she has all the

rights to terminate the same. I request the same preachers to catch

hold of the male beasts that cause such distress in the fisrt place

and terminate them instead. Nobody has any right to interfere in

this matter when one cannot share the burden of the socio-economical

implications let alone the physio-psychological distress imposed

upon the victim. Why should an innocent woman suffer because of a

beastly male? Society should be The Bhima who pulls out the heart of

such beasts enroute. Incidentally, he does not need Krishna's

intervention because Krishna's approval is inherent in all his

actions.

 

Respects.

 

Naga Narayana

------------------------------

Dear Sir ,

 

You mentioned the shloka:

" Yat paapam brahmahattyaa dvigunam garbhapaatane; Praayashchitam ne

tasyaasti tatsyaasyaago vidhiyate " (Parasharsmriti 4:20).

 

Please let me know if you know any more details about this Shloka.

 

I am planning to put up boards with slogan in the villages with this

verse picture of Lord Krishna and Radha and duly translated thus :

 

BRUNE HATYA JO KARE HOGA MAHAAPAP

VIDHATA KA USSKO LAGEGA BHANKAR SHRAAP.

 

Any idea of better slogan? or any other thoughts on this?

 

Prem Khullar

-------------------------------

 

PRIOR POSTING

Hare Krishna

 

Answer to Question 1

 

Prashantji, I am pasting the answer of your question from Swamiji's

book " Sadhan-Sudha-Sindhu " page 960.

 

Q. If it becomes compulsory for woman to abort the baby due to an

infection, then what should she do?

 

A. She will definitely incur the sin of abortion. For protecting

woman people abort the baby but this should not be done. What has to

happen will indeed happen. If the woman has to die then even after

abortion she will die. If she is destined to live longer then she

will not die even if she chooses not to abort. Whatever may be the

cause of death, it will only arrive when the time is up. So abortion

should never be done.

 

Q. Should abortion be carried out in case an unmarried woman becomes

pregnant?

 

A. That boy and girl should marry who had pre-marital sex. If the

marriage is not possible then also abortion should not be done. The

girl should nurture that child and give him/her to an orphanage or

give it to someone who wants to adopt a child.

 

If a woman is raped then the rapist will incur terrible sin. If the

woman has derived pleasure from that then she will also incur sin.

All sins emanate from sensual desire. So the amount of sin will be

in direct proportion with the pleasure derived by that woman. If the

woman did not take any pleasure then she will not incur sin.

 

If an unmarried woman is pregnant then her parents will also incur

sin for their carelessness. It is a must for parents that they take

utmost care of their daughter and not give her excessive

independence.

 

Q. If society comes to know about it then she will become infamous

and no one will marry her?

 

A. After committing sin one has to bear defamation. Abortion,

suicide and running from home. In comparison to these three sins,

it's better to bear the defamation. If no one is willing to marry

her then she should reside in her father's house and spend her life

in worshipping God. This will be penance for her which will destroy

her sins.

 

Q. If a married woman is raped and she becomes pregnant then what

should be done?

 

A. It is better for her to be quiet. If husband comes to know about

it then he should also remain quiet. The couple's slience is best

for them. In reality, one should always be attentive from the

beginning so that such kind of situations do not arise. My

suggestion is not for abortion because it is an ultimate sin

(MahaPaap).

 

Answer to Question 2

 

Shri Khullarji, you are indeed doing great social service by

rescuing women from committing sins like abortion etc. This society

needs people like you.

 

Gita doesn't specifically mention about abortion. It strikes the

root of sin i.e. desire and God has spoken at length on it. Read

Gita (3-36, 37 and 16-21, 23, 24)

 

Premji, Gitapress has published 2 books.

 

Matrishakti Ka Ghor Apman (Code 420)

Desh Ki Vartaman Dash Aur Uska Parinam (Code 617)

Check the details at www.gitapress.org. You can use these 2 books

for your purpose.

 

These 2 books are also included in a 1000 page book Sadhan-Sudha-

Sindhu (Code 465). It is a compilation of more than 40 books of

Swamiji's teachings.

 

Thanks,

 

Hare Krishna

Varun P. Paprunia

-------------------------------

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

From Gita Talk Moderator:

 

" Sadhan, Sudha, Sindhu " in Hindi by Swami Ramsukhdasji, can be

viewed online for free at:

 

http://www.swamiramsukhdasji.org/swamijibooks/pustak/pustak1/html/sad

hansudhasindhu/main.html

Ram Ram

 

-------------------------------

:Shree Hari:

Ram Ram

 

26th September, 2008, Friday

Ashwin Krishna Dvaadashi, Vikram Samvat 2065, Shukravar

 

" Mana jaane sab baat, jaan boojh avaguna kare

kyon chaahat kusalaat, ker deepak koonye pade. "

 

At present times such terrible and fearsome sins are taking place,

that simply by listening, one's hair stands on ends, eyes become

filled with tears, and heart is deeply moved ! Ram Ram Ram, what

terrible unjustice, what fearsome sins are taking place, but your

attention is not going there at all ! Human body is said to be the

rarest of all all forms of life -

" Durlabho maanushyo deho dehinaam shunabhangurah " (Srimad Bhagavat

11:2:29)

" Labdhvaa sudurlabhmidam bahusambhvaante,

maanushyamarthdamnityampeeh dheerah " (Srimad Bhagavat 11:9:29)

" bade bhaag maanushya tanu paava. Sur durlabh sab granthnhi

gaava. " (Manas 7:43:7)

 

Such a rare human body, is being destroyed at the very beginning.

It is being cut up along with the jeev, and this is such a great

offense, it is such injustice, it is a terrible sin! My mind feels

immense pain, it is feeling great distress, but what to do! The

human body by which one can realize God, to not allow that human

body to even be born, and to destroy it, it is the ultimate sin !

To not allow some soul the opportunity to receive a human body, to

not allow that human body to even be born, to take medication from

the beginning and destroy it, through abortion or any other means.

One has stooped so low - not only to think about going to hell

themselves, but at the same time not even allowing another soul the

opportunity for upliftment, for benediction ! Now what is one to

do? Who to share this with? And who will listen to my point? Is

there no one listening ?

 

For ascetics it has been written in the scriptures to not travel

much during " Chaturmaas " (four months in a year during the rains).

Because during these month, due to the rains, every seed grows into

a sappling, which later grows into a tree. By extensive traveling,

walking, these seedlings come under the feet and are destroyed.

Therefore during this four month period, the ascetics do not walk

and roam around much, so that unknowingly no violence is done to any

life form. In Bhagavat it has been said, that if you wish to gain

victory over violence, then reduce the movement of the body -

" hinsaa kaayaadhyaneehayaa. " (Bhagavat 7:15:23). When there is

so much thought put into non-violence around immovable things, then

what to speak on the subject of movable beings? But nowadays, the

best of all movable life forms, better than even the devatas, the

human body, is being contemplated for destruction, what a state of

affairs we are in ! (to be continued)

 

From " Saadhan, Sudhaa, Sindhu " pg 946 in Hindi by Swami Ramsukhdasji

 

For full online discourses in Hindi, please visit Swami

Ramsukhdasji's website. http://www.swamiramsukhdasji.org

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Guest guest

Guest guest

Posted
Posted

Dear Sadhakas, This passage has moved me deeply. One should still

think about the fact that abortion is wrong. Firstly when a woman or

a man, yes a man can be raped by a woman for his seed. If raped, the

fact is the baby formed is not at fault. One does not have the right

to kill a child just because of that fact.

 

QUESTION 1: What would be such a case when rape occurs and the

child is aborted?

your comments please. Prashanth

---------------------

Dear Sir I read the SADAK dt 26 september 2008 regularly . I read

the following verse in your letter dated 27/09/08.

QUESTION 2: In the Paaraashersmriti - " Yat paapam brahmahattyaa

dvigunam garbhapaatane; Praayashchitam ne tasyaasti tatsyaasyaago

vidhiyate " Can you correctly guide me as to where do I find this

writing below, also does Gita make any reference to this? I wish to

quote it in my meetings in the villages against the female feticide.

(aborting female fetus)

thanks, Kindly do clarify and oblige,

prem khullar

-------------------------------

NEW POSTING

 

Hari Om

 

Under no circumstance, even if the circumstance is life

threatening - the sin of abortion should not be done.

Any happenning in our life is outcome of our own karma meted out by

God's laws through nature. Law of Karma is precise and accurate in

its operation.

 

Every incidence has kripa (benevolence) of God hidden in it. Every

adverse incident provides you an opportunity to get closer to God by

right conduct and right utilisation of given circumstance. The human

birth has not been given for petty comforts and worldly pleasures.

It is a challenging, sadhan ( striving for God Realisation) form of

life. The austerity resulting from given adverse circumstances is

God sent/willed as per our own prior deeds.One must take such God

sent austerities as an opportunity for spiritual advancement. One

must perceive the human life as a special form of life- not to enjoy

worldly pleasures but to happily do one's duty without caring for

one's right and another's duty. Job is already on hand, of giving

birth to the innocent child, the duty is already on hand. The

aggrieved should take it so, give birth to the child, and thereafter

she may handover the child to orphanage etc.

 

One must be " careful in " doing " , and happy in " happening "

(result) " . No circumstance can force you to commit new sins.

 

Sanatan Dharma Scriptures deal with every type of circumstance.

Similar circumstance was faced by Kunti also. Kunti was mother of

Karna conceived when she was unmarried through Sun. She gave birth

to the child and silently surrendered the child to the mother

nature. Karna went on to be a part of history forever. Karna earned

admiration of all , including from Lord Krishna. He was one of the

greatest philanthropist the Indian soil has ever produced. He

redefined the art of giving/donating/ renunciation. He was " tyaag

murti " . Karna was the eldest son of Kunti- elder than

Yuddhister/Bhim/Arjuna/Nakul/Sahdev.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

--------------------------

HELLO SIR,

Your own conscience is the best guide. follow it. In so doing see

that your action does not harm the other person. Follow the maxim "

do unto others what you expect from others " That's what the Mahatma

Gandhi said, " I look to my inner self for guidance when I am in

trouble " . So said Lord Buddha too.

Ramachander Homma

--------------------------

Dear Sadaks,

If a lady conceives, it is not her wish or effort. Many women even

after marriage do not concieve. Why? The child to be born is

predecided by the Karma of that soul. In certain cases the child

gets aborted naturally, which is no way connected with anybody or

Sin.

But to abort a child is wrong. The cause is abortion and the effect

is the lady who aborted the child, will have rebirth as lady who

will have no issues (children). This lady who aborted can even be a

tree in her next birth, where the tree does not yield fruits. The

rebirth depends on once Paapas (sins) and Puniyas (virtues).

Referance Garbopanashid.

B.Sathyanarayan

--------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

I resonate totally with the views expressed by Naga Narayanji on

this subject.

No action in itself is right or wrong without regard to

circumstances surrounding it.

An action such as abortion may be right in one set of circumstances

and wrong in another set of circumstances. In otherwords, actions

are not inherently right or wrong.

There are many examples in daily life where we can see this to be

true.

I think that right action comes to one who is steadfast on the path

of righteousness (dharma), and seeks all decisions from the Totality

of Being(THAT) and never as an individual! In such cases interest of

all parties involved in actions are duly considered by THAT. Such

actions are God taking actions through people for people.

Namaskaras........Pratap Bhatt

 

--------------------------

 

PRIOR POSTING

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

As our scriptures says - if we believe that we are the Atma (Soul,

Spirit, Individual Consciousness), and if we also believe that human

life is the rarest form of birth (1 of 8.4 million species in this

Universe), and that only in this human form of life, one can attain

freedom from all bondages, one can realize their true nature, one

can attain salvation, one can realize eternal bliss, one can develop

love of God… etc., then common sense says that what Swamiji says is

without any doubt to be accepted - i.e. we have no right to stop

the evolution of a Soul, by creating roadblocks in it's evolution

cycle. This roadblock that we place on another souls' progress, to

not allow it an opportunity for salvation, will definitely have it's

consequences and is a grave sin. Most of the times, we sin due to

desire for our own happiness, self protection, comforts, betterment,

selfish reasons, and if we look at it from that perspective, also

the reason for abortions are also mostly for the same reasons, for a

little convenience and happiness, we are destroying another life,

and not allowing it to be born as a human, a soul that could have

realized the Self / God, and attain salvation etc.

 

Swamiji has said it is briefly addressed in Gita, under demoniac

tendencies. Gita 16:9 " Prabhavantyu grakarmaanah kshayaaya

jagatohitaah. " " Not believing in the eternal soul, the demoniac

natured appear as enemies of the world, for its destruction. " Gita

16:9

Unknowingly we destroy and kill helpless lives, and are hoping the

we will be benefited. How can we be benefited? How can we attain

salvation?

" Jaan-jaanker mook, asamarth jivon ki hatyaa karte ho aur caahete ho

ki hamaaraa bhallaa ho jaaye; kaise ho jaayegaa? kalyaan kaise ho

jaayegaa ?

 

For their selfish motives, such demoniac people indulge in violence,

murder and usurpation etc., without thinking of the pain, which they

inflict upon others.

" Dharmasarvasva suno, aur sunker dhaaran kar lo. Jo aacharan apnese

pratikool ho, usko dusero ke prati mat karo. "

 

Looking at a broader more Universal perspective, who truly takes

care of the 8.4 millions species? Do we? What arrogance to think

that we alone have the right and the burden of responsibility for

that conceived fetus? In many countries, one has to wait for years

and pay a huge amount, to adopt a child. Our ego and selfishness is

causing us to not give this opportunity to another soul and to

instead sin.

 

Not only that, many women who visited Swamiji after having undergone

several abortions, found their bodies to be significantly weakened,

undergoing several irreversible health problems. (I am truly

unaware of the medical and health implications, as this is based

only on experiences / problems that women shared with Swamiji).

 

After listening to Swamiji / reading his thoughts from books for a

number of years, after listening to the way He responded to question

and answers, there was never a question that he could not answer to

one's satisfaction. He had thought about everything he shared,

deeply for a long time, before he even uttered a word or stated

something firmly. In my opinion, Swamiji and all the major

religions of the world that believe in pro-life cannot be wrong!

 

Hope this helps.

Meera Das

Ram Ram

-------------------------------

Sanity and Sanctity of Birth-Control and Abortion

 

Many religions are committed to the propaganda of the idea of anti-

abortion and anti-birth-control strongly even in the so-called

advanced societies such as West. I strongly advocate that this is an

extremely lopsided vision from both social as well as natural

persepctives. By the way, spirituality has nothing to do with it!

 

We hear a lot like " birth is God's Grace and hence we should not

intefere; any such intereference is the greed, selfishness and

arrogance of humans against God's Grace " . I agree with it completely

ONLY IF it is also appreciated in tandem that " death is also God's

Grace and hence we should not interfere with that as well " . Death is

part of the creation as much as the birth. Is it OK to exercise our

ego to interfere with THAT when we are trying all we could do to

avoid/postpone the death? Isn't it the same greed and arrogance in

action in this case as well? Are we not disgracing ourselves by not

believing God's will in our death??

 

My suggestion to the birth-promoters is, " do not take a single pill

to interfere with God's will in the deseases, aging as well as in

death. Then, you are entitled to claim that one should not

interefere with God's will. " Taking all medicinal help to promote

our survival rate and life span on one hand and rejecting the same

for birth control on the other hand is hypocracy. Such attitude is

utterly (1) anti-nature resulting in lopsided population growth of

one single species on this earth; and (2) anti-society resulting in

undue stress of life demands overwhelming the resources. As far as

death control is excercised, one should allow the birth control to

balance the act in any soceity. That is social sanity and that is

natural sanctity.

 

Again, promoting one's material life on this earth is not at all the

agenda of Bhagavad Gita. The agenda is to cleanse the life we have

already taken … to learn how to live it well and how to leave it as

well. That does not remove any of our social responsibilities and

natural obligations. One can get liberated from the social

responsibilities by accepting the nature – birth and death alike. On

the other hand, one cannot get liberated from the natural

obligations till one lives.

 

Also, abusing the spiritual texts for social promotion is incorrect

and can lead to become frantically religious and religiously

fanatic. Bhagavaan Vyaasa advocates to never preach spirituality to

one who cannot appreciate it for one with half-baked knowledge will

lead to natural catastrophies such as population explosion which

eventually culminates in social catastrophies such as wars.

 

Na buddhibhedam janayet agnyaanaam karmasanginaam |

Joshayet sarva karmaani vidvaanyuktassamaacharan ||

 

For social issues such as abortion one should adapt common sense and

social awareness that reflects the circumstantial reality. If the

woman is forced to bear a feutus against her will, she has all the

rights to terminate the same. I request the same preachers to catch

hold of the male beasts that cause such distress in the fisrt place

and terminate them instead. Nobody has any right to interfere in

this matter when one cannot share the burden of the socio-economical

implications let alone the physio-psychological distress imposed

upon the victim. Why should an innocent woman suffer because of a

beastly male? Society should be The Bhima who pulls out the heart of

such beasts enroute. Incidentally, he does not need Krishna's

intervention because Krishna's approval is inherent in all his

actions.

 

Respects.

 

Naga Narayana

------------------------------

Dear Sir ,

 

You mentioned the shloka:

" Yat paapam brahmahattyaa dvigunam garbhapaatane; Praayashchitam ne

tasyaasti tatsyaasyaago vidhiyate " (Parasharsmriti 4:20).

 

Please let me know if you know any more details about this Shloka.

 

I am planning to put up boards with slogan in the villages with this

verse picture of Lord Krishna and Radha and duly translated thus :

 

BRUNE HATYA JO KARE HOGA MAHAAPAP

VIDHATA KA USSKO LAGEGA BHANKAR SHRAAP.

 

Any idea of better slogan? or any other thoughts on this?

 

Prem Khullar

-------------------------------

 

PRIOR POSTING

Hare Krishna

 

Answer to Question 1

 

Prashantji, I am pasting the answer of your question from Swamiji's

book " Sadhan-Sudha-Sindhu " page 960.

 

Q. If it becomes compulsory for woman to abort the baby due to an

infection, then what should she do?

 

A. She will definitely incur the sin of abortion. For protecting

woman people abort the baby but this should not be done. What has to

happen will indeed happen. If the woman has to die then even after

abortion she will die. If she is destined to live longer then she

will not die even if she chooses not to abort. Whatever may be the

cause of death, it will only arrive when the time is up. So abortion

should never be done.

 

Q. Should abortion be carried out in case an unmarried woman becomes

pregnant?

 

A. That boy and girl should marry who had pre-marital sex. If the

marriage is not possible then also abortion should not be done. The

girl should nurture that child and give him/her to an orphanage or

give it to someone who wants to adopt a child.

 

If a woman is raped then the rapist will incur terrible sin. If the

woman has derived pleasure from that then she will also incur sin.

All sins emanate from sensual desire. So the amount of sin will be

in direct proportion with the pleasure derived by that woman. If the

woman did not take any pleasure then she will not incur sin.

 

If an unmarried woman is pregnant then her parents will also incur

sin for their carelessness. It is a must for parents that they take

utmost care of their daughter and not give her excessive

independence.

 

Q. If society comes to know about it then she will become infamous

and no one will marry her?

 

A. After committing sin one has to bear defamation. Abortion,

suicide and running from home. In comparison to these three sins,

it's better to bear the defamation. If no one is willing to marry

her then she should reside in her father's house and spend her life

in worshipping God. This will be penance for her which will destroy

her sins.

 

Q. If a married woman is raped and she becomes pregnant then what

should be done?

 

A. It is better for her to be quiet. If husband comes to know about

it then he should also remain quiet. The couple's slience is best

for them. In reality, one should always be attentive from the

beginning so that such kind of situations do not arise. My

suggestion is not for abortion because it is an ultimate sin

(MahaPaap).

 

Answer to Question 2

 

Shri Khullarji, you are indeed doing great social service by

rescuing women from committing sins like abortion etc. This society

needs people like you.

 

Gita doesn't specifically mention about abortion. It strikes the

root of sin i.e. desire and God has spoken at length on it. Read

Gita (3-36, 37 and 16-21, 23, 24)

 

Premji, Gitapress has published 2 books.

 

Matrishakti Ka Ghor Apman (Code 420)

Desh Ki Vartaman Dash Aur Uska Parinam (Code 617)

Check the details at www.gitapress.org. You can use these 2 books

for your purpose.

 

These 2 books are also included in a 1000 page book Sadhan-Sudha-

Sindhu (Code 465). It is a compilation of more than 40 books of

Swamiji's teachings.

 

Thanks,

 

Hare Krishna

Varun P. Paprunia

-------------------------------

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

From Gita Talk Moderator:

 

" Sadhan, Sudha, Sindhu " in Hindi by Swami Ramsukhdasji, can be

viewed online for free at:

 

http://www.swamiramsukhdasji.org/swamijibooks/pustak/pustak1/html/sad

hansudhasindhu/main.html

Ram Ram

 

-------------------------------

:Shree Hari:

Ram Ram

 

26th September, 2008, Friday

Ashwin Krishna Dvaadashi, Vikram Samvat 2065, Shukravar

 

" Mana jaane sab baat, jaan boojh avaguna kare

kyon chaahat kusalaat, ker deepak koonye pade. "

 

At present times such terrible and fearsome sins are taking place,

that simply by listening, one's hair stands on ends, eyes become

filled with tears, and heart is deeply moved ! Ram Ram Ram, what

terrible unjustice, what fearsome sins are taking place, but your

attention is not going there at all ! Human body is said to be the

rarest of all all forms of life -

" Durlabho maanushyo deho dehinaam shunabhangurah " (Srimad Bhagavat

11:2:29)

" Labdhvaa sudurlabhmidam bahusambhvaante,

maanushyamarthdamnityampeeh dheerah " (Srimad Bhagavat 11:9:29)

" bade bhaag maanushya tanu paava. Sur durlabh sab granthnhi

gaava. " (Manas 7:43:7)

 

Such a rare human body, is being destroyed at the very beginning.

It is being cut up along with the jeev, and this is such a great

offense, it is such injustice, it is a terrible sin! My mind feels

immense pain, it is feeling great distress, but what to do! The

human body by which one can realize God, to not allow that human

body to even be born, and to destroy it, it is the ultimate sin !

To not allow some soul the opportunity to receive a human body, to

not allow that human body to even be born, to take medication from

the beginning and destroy it, through abortion or any other means.

One has stooped so low - not only to think about going to hell

themselves, but at the same time not even allowing another soul the

opportunity for upliftment, for benediction ! Now what is one to

do? Who to share this with? And who will listen to my point? Is

there no one listening ?

 

For ascetics it has been written in the scriptures to not travel

much during " Chaturmaas " (four months in a year during the rains).

Because during these month, due to the rains, every seed grows into

a sappling, which later grows into a tree. By extensive traveling,

walking, these seedlings come under the feet and are destroyed.

Therefore during this four month period, the ascetics do not walk

and roam around much, so that unknowingly no violence is done to any

life form. In Bhagavat it has been said, that if you wish to gain

victory over violence, then reduce the movement of the body -

" hinsaa kaayaadhyaneehayaa. " (Bhagavat 7:15:23). When there is

so much thought put into non-violence around immovable things, then

what to speak on the subject of movable beings? But nowadays, the

best of all movable life forms, better than even the devatas, the

human body, is being contemplated for destruction, what a state of

affairs we are in ! (to be continued)

 

From " Saadhan, Sudhaa, Sindhu " pg 946 in Hindi by Swami Ramsukhdasji

 

For full online discourses in Hindi, please visit Swami

Ramsukhdasji's website. http://www.swamiramsukhdasji.org

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Dear Sadhakas, This passage has moved me deeply. One should still

think about the fact that abortion is wrong. Firstly when a woman or

a man, yes a man can be raped by a woman for his seed. If raped, the

fact is the baby formed is not at fault. One does not have the right

to kill a child just because of that fact.

 

QUESTION 1: What would be such a case when rape occurs and the

child is aborted?

your comments please. Prashanth

---------------------

Dear Sir I read the SADAK dt 26 september 2008 regularly . I read

the following verse in your letter dated 27/09/08.

QUESTION 2: In the Paaraashersmriti - " Yat paapam brahmahattyaa

dvigunam garbhapaatane; Praayashchitam ne tasyaasti tatsyaasyaago

vidhiyate " Can you correctly guide me as to where do I find this

writing below, also does Gita make any reference to this? I wish to

quote it in my meetings in the villages against the female feticide.

(aborting female fetus)

thanks, Kindly do clarify and oblige,

prem khullar

-------------------------------

NEW POSTING

 

My dandavats to all in this forum....

 

In regard to the concept of taking pills to prolong health being

" hypocritical " if one is against pills to stop birth......I am

shocked that one with knowledge would dare equate the two concepts.

Doesn't the Supreme Lord appear as Dhanvantari, to give knowledge of

herbs to help human beings? Where is there any reference where the

Supreme Lord would say, " yes, abort this child " ? Anyone can say

anything, but one must analyze according to scripture, if he or she

is to truly benefit the cause of humanity.

Also, I believe it is a myth that there is overpopulation. I

truly believe that mother Bhumi can expand her form, if needed, she

is alive....she is not dead matter. The problem today is

mismanagement of the resources. In the time of Prthu Maharaj,

another incarnation of the Lord mentioned in the Srimad Bhagavatm,

mother earth also withheld fruits and vegetables and grains, as there

was so little sacrifice in the human hearts taking place. On the

threat of Prthu Maharaj, she agreed to produce abundantly. Are

there those who think these stories are simply folk lore?

Again, anyone can say anything, but the laws of material nature

will act, regardless. If I say that the sun will rise in the west,

I can say it every day til I leave this world, but will it happen?

No, it will not. I cannot change the laws of nature. Killing is

sinful, attempting to prevent a soul from entering a womb using any

birth control is sinful, and reactions will come whether one

believes or not. This is the law of karma. Otherwise, if this were

not true, it would stand to reason that there is nothing wrong with

unlimited illicit sexual activity. Yes, just use birth control,

have abortions, enjoy your body all you choose...IS THERE ANYONE WHO

CAN SUPPORT THIS TYPE OF MENTALITY FROM A RELIGIOUS OR DEVOTION TO

GOD STAND-POINT? I don't believe it is possible.

Also, it may be true that the perpetrator of rape is a

rascal....but a woman cannot justify her act of murdering an unborn

child merely because a male chose to act sinfully. The two sins do

not balance each other out. Women must return to their role of

being protectors of society, of righteousness...with no " attitude "

of hatred toward the ignorance of males, otherwise the love and grace

of Laksmi will never again flow abundantly on this planet.

The " blame game " should not be for those of saintly character.

 

Respectfully submitted,

Mahalaksmmi Dasi

-------------------------------

-Shree Hari-

I found the comments by Naga Narayana and Meera Das absorbing, the

full spectrum as it were.

OK there was a program on TV here, that showed an abortion, not

simulated, the real thing, the apparatus used was a sort of vacuum

device the sucked the life from the womb.

As I watched this, I experienced something unusual, I had no

emotions, it was as if I were stone, no anger no horror, I was in the

presence of demonic evil, somehow my emotions retreated, my defenses

were up, sometimes evil can be so great it seems, that words and

reactions have no place.

What I saw, I never want to see again,.

Preventing conception, is not killing of life, there is timing of

copulation, condoms, barriers, and birth control pills; they do not

abort, I personally think that the birth control pill may have

dangers, as it interferes with normal bodily functions.

However if the pill prevents the resort to abortion, then so be it.

If a woman is raped, the fetus is not the intruder, the brute who

raped her is. Punish him by the full force of the law, not the fetus.

(I understand in some countries, it's almost impossible to be charged

with rape, and the victims can be punished, how terrible!)

 

I have personally witnessed, the stinking mire that over population,

poverty, animals and humans living in close proximity, the over

powering smell of camels, goats , and sewage, and what it does to

people.

 

So on the subject of abortion, I see strength in Meera Das point of

view, and on birth control, I think Naga Narayana, has sound

arguments.

 

With Respect and Divine Love.

 

Mike Keenor

------------------------------

What about the karma of the men who rape? All the views expressed

here do not take into account that women are human beings, have

feelings and have the right to perhaps cleanse themselves of the

sins committed by men. Abortion is the only way to cleanse such sin

committed by men, who are " protectors " and hide behind religious

views.

 

Shame on all of you.

Shobhna S. Kumar

-------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Hari Om

 

Under no circumstance, even if the circumstance is life

threatening - the sin of abortion should not be done.

Any happenning in our life is outcome of our own karma meted out by

God's laws through nature. Law of Karma is precise and accurate in

its operation.

 

Every incidence has kripa (benevolence) of God hidden in it. Every

adverse incident provides you an opportunity to get closer to God by

right conduct and right utilisation of given circumstance. The human

birth has not been given for petty comforts and worldly pleasures.

It is a challenging, sadhan ( striving for God Realisation) form of

life. The austerity resulting from given adverse circumstances is

God sent/willed as per our own prior deeds.One must take such God

sent austerities as an opportunity for spiritual advancement. One

must perceive the human life as a special form of life- not to enjoy

worldly pleasures but to happily do one's duty without caring for

one's right and another's duty. Job is already on hand, of giving

birth to the innocent child, the duty is already on hand. The

aggrieved should take it so, give birth to the child, and thereafter

she may handover the child to orphanage etc.

 

One must be " careful in " doing " , and happy in " happening "

(result) " . No circumstance can force you to commit new sins.

 

Sanatan Dharma Scriptures deal with every type of circumstance.

Similar circumstance was faced by Kunti also. Kunti was mother of

Karna conceived when she was unmarried through Sun. She gave birth

to the child and silently surrendered the child to the mother

nature. Karna went on to be a part of history forever. Karna earned

admiration of all , including from Lord Krishna. He was one of the

greatest philanthropist the Indian soil has ever produced. He

redefined the art of giving/donating/ renunciation. He was " tyaag

murti " . Karna was the eldest son of Kunti- elder than

Yuddhister/Bhim/Arjuna/Nakul/Sahdev.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

--------------------------

HELLO SIR,

Your own conscience is the best guide. follow it. In so doing see

that your action does not harm the other person. Follow the maxim "

do unto others what you expect from others " That's what the Mahatma

Gandhi said, " I look to my inner self for guidance when I am in

trouble " . So said Lord Buddha too.

Ramachander Homma

--------------------------

Dear Sadaks,

If a lady conceives, it is not her wish or effort. Many women even

after marriage do not concieve. Why? The child to be born is

predecided by the Karma of that soul. In certain cases the child

gets aborted naturally, which is no way connected with anybody or

Sin.

But to abort a child is wrong. The cause is abortion and the effect

is the lady who aborted the child, will have rebirth as lady who

will have no issues (children). This lady who aborted can even be a

tree in her next birth, where the tree does not yield fruits. The

rebirth depends on once Paapas (sins) and Puniyas (virtues).

Referance Garbopanashid.

B.Sathyanarayan

--------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

I resonate totally with the views expressed by Naga Narayanji on

this subject.

No action in itself is right or wrong without regard to

circumstances surrounding it.

An action such as abortion may be right in one set of circumstances

and wrong in another set of circumstances. In otherwords, actions

are not inherently right or wrong.

There are many examples in daily life where we can see this to be

true.

I think that right action comes to one who is steadfast on the path

of righteousness (dharma), and seeks all decisions from the Totality

of Being(THAT) and never as an individual! In such cases interest of

all parties involved in actions are duly considered by THAT. Such

actions are God taking actions through people for people.

Namaskaras........Pratap Bhatt

 

--------------------------

 

PRIOR POSTING

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

As our scriptures says - if we believe that we are the Atma (Soul,

Spirit, Individual Consciousness), and if we also believe that human

life is the rarest form of birth (1 of 8.4 million species in this

Universe), and that only in this human form of life, one can attain

freedom from all bondages, one can realize their true nature, one

can attain salvation, one can realize eternal bliss, one can develop

love of God… etc., then common sense says that what Swamiji says is

without any doubt to be accepted - i.e. we have no right to stop

the evolution of a Soul, by creating roadblocks in it's evolution

cycle. This roadblock that we place on another souls' progress, to

not allow it an opportunity for salvation, will definitely have it's

consequences and is a grave sin. Most of the times, we sin due to

desire for our own happiness, self protection, comforts, betterment,

selfish reasons, and if we look at it from that perspective, also

the reason for abortions are also mostly for the same reasons, for a

little convenience and happiness, we are destroying another life,

and not allowing it to be born as a human, a soul that could have

realized the Self / God, and attain salvation etc.

 

Swamiji has said it is briefly addressed in Gita, under demoniac

tendencies. Gita 16:9 " Prabhavantyu grakarmaanah kshayaaya

jagatohitaah. " " Not believing in the eternal soul, the demoniac

natured appear as enemies of the world, for its destruction. " Gita

16:9

Unknowingly we destroy and kill helpless lives, and are hoping the

we will be benefited. How can we be benefited? How can we attain

salvation?

" Jaan-jaanker mook, asamarth jivon ki hatyaa karte ho aur caahete ho

ki hamaaraa bhallaa ho jaaye; kaise ho jaayegaa? kalyaan kaise ho

jaayegaa ?

 

For their selfish motives, such demoniac people indulge in violence,

murder and usurpation etc., without thinking of the pain, which they

inflict upon others.

" Dharmasarvasva suno, aur sunker dhaaran kar lo. Jo aacharan apnese

pratikool ho, usko dusero ke prati mat karo. "

 

Looking at a broader more Universal perspective, who truly takes

care of the 8.4 millions species? Do we? What arrogance to think

that we alone have the right and the burden of responsibility for

that conceived fetus? In many countries, one has to wait for years

and pay a huge amount, to adopt a child. Our ego and selfishness is

causing us to not give this opportunity to another soul and to

instead sin.

 

Not only that, many women who visited Swamiji after having undergone

several abortions, found their bodies to be significantly weakened,

undergoing several irreversible health problems. (I am truly

unaware of the medical and health implications, as this is based

only on experiences / problems that women shared with Swamiji).

 

After listening to Swamiji / reading his thoughts from books for a

number of years, after listening to the way He responded to question

and answers, there was never a question that he could not answer to

one's satisfaction. He had thought about everything he shared,

deeply for a long time, before he even uttered a word or stated

something firmly. In my opinion, Swamiji and all the major

religions of the world that believe in pro-life cannot be wrong!

 

Hope this helps.

Meera Das

Ram Ram

-------------------------------

Sanity and Sanctity of Birth-Control and Abortion

 

Many religions are committed to the propaganda of the idea of anti-

abortion and anti-birth-control strongly even in the so-called

advanced societies such as West. I strongly advocate that this is an

extremely lopsided vision from both social as well as natural

persepctives. By the way, spirituality has nothing to do with it!

 

We hear a lot like " birth is God's Grace and hence we should not

intefere; any such intereference is the greed, selfishness and

arrogance of humans against God's Grace " . I agree with it completely

ONLY IF it is also appreciated in tandem that " death is also God's

Grace and hence we should not interfere with that as well " . Death is

part of the creation as much as the birth. Is it OK to exercise our

ego to interfere with THAT when we are trying all we could do to

avoid/postpone the death? Isn't it the same greed and arrogance in

action in this case as well? Are we not disgracing ourselves by not

believing God's will in our death??

 

My suggestion to the birth-promoters is, " do not take a single pill

to interfere with God's will in the deseases, aging as well as in

death. Then, you are entitled to claim that one should not

interefere with God's will. " Taking all medicinal help to promote

our survival rate and life span on one hand and rejecting the same

for birth control on the other hand is hypocracy. Such attitude is

utterly (1) anti-nature resulting in lopsided population growth of

one single species on this earth; and (2) anti-society resulting in

undue stress of life demands overwhelming the resources. As far as

death control is excercised, one should allow the birth control to

balance the act in any soceity. That is social sanity and that is

natural sanctity.

 

Again, promoting one's material life on this earth is not at all the

agenda of Bhagavad Gita. The agenda is to cleanse the life we have

already taken … to learn how to live it well and how to leave it as

well. That does not remove any of our social responsibilities and

natural obligations. One can get liberated from the social

responsibilities by accepting the nature – birth and death alike. On

the other hand, one cannot get liberated from the natural

obligations till one lives.

 

Also, abusing the spiritual texts for social promotion is incorrect

and can lead to become frantically religious and religiously

fanatic. Bhagavaan Vyaasa advocates to never preach spirituality to

one who cannot appreciate it for one with half-baked knowledge will

lead to natural catastrophies such as population explosion which

eventually culminates in social catastrophies such as wars.

 

Na buddhibhedam janayet agnyaanaam karmasanginaam |

Joshayet sarva karmaani vidvaanyuktassamaacharan ||

 

For social issues such as abortion one should adapt common sense and

social awareness that reflects the circumstantial reality. If the

woman is forced to bear a feutus against her will, she has all the

rights to terminate the same. I request the same preachers to catch

hold of the male beasts that cause such distress in the fisrt place

and terminate them instead. Nobody has any right to interfere in

this matter when one cannot share the burden of the socio-economical

implications let alone the physio-psychological distress imposed

upon the victim. Why should an innocent woman suffer because of a

beastly male? Society should be The Bhima who pulls out the heart of

such beasts enroute. Incidentally, he does not need Krishna's

intervention because Krishna's approval is inherent in all his

actions.

 

Respects.

 

Naga Narayana

------------------------------

Dear Sir ,

 

You mentioned the shloka:

" Yat paapam brahmahattyaa dvigunam garbhapaatane; Praayashchitam ne

tasyaasti tatsyaasyaago vidhiyate " (Parasharsmriti 4:20).

 

Please let me know if you know any more details about this Shloka.

 

I am planning to put up boards with slogan in the villages with this

verse picture of Lord Krishna and Radha and duly translated thus :

 

BRUNE HATYA JO KARE HOGA MAHAAPAP

VIDHATA KA USSKO LAGEGA BHANKAR SHRAAP.

 

Any idea of better slogan? or any other thoughts on this?

 

Prem Khullar

-------------------------------

 

PRIOR POSTING

Hare Krishna

 

Answer to Question 1

 

Prashantji, I am pasting the answer of your question from Swamiji's

book " Sadhan-Sudha-Sindhu " page 960.

 

Q. If it becomes compulsory for woman to abort the baby due to an

infection, then what should she do?

 

A. She will definitely incur the sin of abortion. For protecting

woman people abort the baby but this should not be done. What has to

happen will indeed happen. If the woman has to die then even after

abortion she will die. If she is destined to live longer then she

will not die even if she chooses not to abort. Whatever may be the

cause of death, it will only arrive when the time is up. So abortion

should never be done.

 

Q. Should abortion be carried out in case an unmarried woman becomes

pregnant?

 

A. That boy and girl should marry who had pre-marital sex. If the

marriage is not possible then also abortion should not be done. The

girl should nurture that child and give him/her to an orphanage or

give it to someone who wants to adopt a child.

 

If a woman is raped then the rapist will incur terrible sin. If the

woman has derived pleasure from that then she will also incur sin.

All sins emanate from sensual desire. So the amount of sin will be

in direct proportion with the pleasure derived by that woman. If the

woman did not take any pleasure then she will not incur sin.

 

If an unmarried woman is pregnant then her parents will also incur

sin for their carelessness. It is a must for parents that they take

utmost care of their daughter and not give her excessive

independence.

 

Q. If society comes to know about it then she will become infamous

and no one will marry her?

 

A. After committing sin one has to bear defamation. Abortion,

suicide and running from home. In comparison to these three sins,

it's better to bear the defamation. If no one is willing to marry

her then she should reside in her father's house and spend her life

in worshipping God. This will be penance for her which will destroy

her sins.

 

Q. If a married woman is raped and she becomes pregnant then what

should be done?

 

A. It is better for her to be quiet. If husband comes to know about

it then he should also remain quiet. The couple's slience is best

for them. In reality, one should always be attentive from the

beginning so that such kind of situations do not arise. My

suggestion is not for abortion because it is an ultimate sin

(MahaPaap).

 

Answer to Question 2

 

Shri Khullarji, you are indeed doing great social service by

rescuing women from committing sins like abortion etc. This society

needs people like you.

 

Gita doesn't specifically mention about abortion. It strikes the

root of sin i.e. desire and God has spoken at length on it. Read

Gita (3-36, 37 and 16-21, 23, 24)

 

Premji, Gitapress has published 2 books.

 

Matrishakti Ka Ghor Apman (Code 420)

Desh Ki Vartaman Dash Aur Uska Parinam (Code 617)

Check the details at www.gitapress.org. You can use these 2 books

for your purpose.

 

These 2 books are also included in a 1000 page book Sadhan-Sudha-

Sindhu (Code 465). It is a compilation of more than 40 books of

Swamiji's teachings.

 

Thanks,

 

Hare Krishna

Varun P. Paprunia

-------------------------------

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

From Gita Talk Moderator:

 

" Sadhan, Sudha, Sindhu " in Hindi by Swami Ramsukhdasji, can be

viewed online for free at:

 

http://www.swamiramsukhdasji.org/swamijibooks/pustak/pustak1/html/sad

hansudhasindhu/main.html

Ram Ram

 

-------------------------------

:Shree Hari:

Ram Ram

 

26th September, 2008, Friday

Ashwin Krishna Dvaadashi, Vikram Samvat 2065, Shukravar

 

" Mana jaane sab baat, jaan boojh avaguna kare

kyon chaahat kusalaat, ker deepak koonye pade. "

 

At present times such terrible and fearsome sins are taking place,

that simply by listening, one's hair stands on ends, eyes become

filled with tears, and heart is deeply moved ! Ram Ram Ram, what

terrible unjustice, what fearsome sins are taking place, but your

attention is not going there at all ! Human body is said to be the

rarest of all all forms of life -

" Durlabho maanushyo deho dehinaam shunabhangurah " (Srimad Bhagavat

11:2:29)

" Labdhvaa sudurlabhmidam bahusambhvaante,

maanushyamarthdamnityampeeh dheerah " (Srimad Bhagavat 11:9:29)

" bade bhaag maanushya tanu paava. Sur durlabh sab granthnhi

gaava. " (Manas 7:43:7)

 

Such a rare human body, is being destroyed at the very beginning.

It is being cut up along with the jeev, and this is such a great

offense, it is such injustice, it is a terrible sin! My mind feels

immense pain, it is feeling great distress, but what to do! The

human body by which one can realize God, to not allow that human

body to even be born, and to destroy it, it is the ultimate sin !

To not allow some soul the opportunity to receive a human body, to

not allow that human body to even be born, to take medication from

the beginning and destroy it, through abortion or any other means.

One has stooped so low - not only to think about going to hell

themselves, but at the same time not even allowing another soul the

opportunity for upliftment, for benediction ! Now what is one to

do? Who to share this with? And who will listen to my point? Is

there no one listening ?

 

For ascetics it has been written in the scriptures to not travel

much during " Chaturmaas " (four months in a year during the rains).

Because during these month, due to the rains, every seed grows into

a sappling, which later grows into a tree. By extensive traveling,

walking, these seedlings come under the feet and are destroyed.

Therefore during this four month period, the ascetics do not walk

and roam around much, so that unknowingly no violence is done to any

life form. In Bhagavat it has been said, that if you wish to gain

victory over violence, then reduce the movement of the body -

" hinsaa kaayaadhyaneehayaa. " (Bhagavat 7:15:23). When there is

so much thought put into non-violence around immovable things, then

what to speak on the subject of movable beings? But nowadays, the

best of all movable life forms, better than even the devatas, the

human body, is being contemplated for destruction, what a state of

affairs we are in ! (to be continued)

 

From " Saadhan, Sudhaa, Sindhu " pg 946 in Hindi by Swami Ramsukhdasji

 

For full online discourses in Hindi, please visit Swami

Ramsukhdasji's website. http://www.swamiramsukhdasji.org

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Shree Hari

Ram Ram

The next posting will bring a closure to the discussion on this topic. If you

have any ideas for a powerful slogan that Prem Khullarji can use during his

awareness sessions in the Villages, please suggest. Thank you! From Gita Talk

Moderator

-------------------------------

 

Dear Sadhakas, This passage has moved me deeply. One should still

think about the fact that abortion is wrong. Firstly when a woman or

a man, yes a man can be raped by a woman for his seed. If raped, the

fact is the baby formed is not at fault. One does not have the right

to kill a child just because of that fact.

 

QUESTION 1: What would be such a case when rape occurs and the

child is aborted?

your comments please. Prashanth

---------------------

Dear Sir I read the SADAK dt 26 september 2008 regularly . I read

the following verse in your letter dated 27/09/08.

QUESTION 2: In the Paaraashersmriti - " Yat paapam brahmahattyaa

dvigunam garbhapaatane; Praayashchitam ne tasyaasti tatsyaasyaago

vidhiyate " Can you correctly guide me as to where do I find this

writing below, also does Gita make any reference to this? I wish to

quote it in my meetings in the villages against the female feticide.

(aborting female fetus)

thanks, Kindly do clarify and oblige,

prem khullar

-------------------------------

NEW POSTING

 

Raam Raam Raam

 

Great Suggestion is that either you dont make efforts to remain

healthy, to cure any illnesses OR we are justified in stopping new

births into this world. Either you control death or we shall control

birth. As simple as that. Why you are taking medicines to cure

fever ? If you are taking medicines, then we shall abort the child.

What shall the child do in this planet? Oh No ! Kill him. Modern

societies cant tolerate this non sense of humans coming on this

planet so fast. Where is the space ? Where is housing for them ? Who

will arrange for their food, water, upkeep, maintenance? How costly

are the living now a days ? We want freedom ! We have come on this

planet, and after applying our minds we have concluded that in

modern societies such non sensical obstacles to sensual pleasures is

unwarranted ! Kill them . Stop them from coming to this world. Now

that we have come into this planet, where is the need for any other?

It is these new arrivals that has made this world so bad, and

unlivable. No , Sorry ! We cant let them enter. Kill the fetus.

Simply kill ! All problems are only because of that only ! Kill the

fetus in the womb itself. Suck the life out of it. Let us enjoy. We

never wanted the child. We just wanted to enjoy the human life. From

where this conception hascome ? Oh , dont worry kill the fetus ! We

are modern, we are not orthodox people. If we dont stop human beings

from coming to this world, then what shall be the difference between

us and animals. Animals mate only when there is season for mating.

They have to exercise restraints and disciplines- not the human

beings. Animals are animals only because they mate only when there

is a season. We are not animals. We are human beings. We shall mate

anytime we want - morning evening, day, night, January, April, June

any time, any month. What a fun ! What an obstacle to this fun is

this conception. That is spoil sport. Kill the fetus. After all we

are privileged, we are intelligent. We can invent devices to kill

them anytime. Science is pretty advanced. Vacuum cleaners. Suck the

life out of that creature. What the fetus thought we are so stupid.

Gone are those old concepts of father, mother, protector ! Non

sense. We have mind, intellect, beautiful body. This conception

is undesirable - a simple nuisance! We have thought over it, all

problems are only because of increase in population. From where the

additional income will come? From where we shall feed the children ?

No ! Not Possible!! Our leaders also say so. Entire economy is in

mess only because of this over population. Enjoy mating, but kill

fetus. Where is the need for child here ? Shall we eat ourselves or

get entangled in arranging food for them ? Are we so stupids ? Come

On ! Either you control death or we shall abort !!! We are modern

humans. Kill the fetus. No arguments. Kill ! If you want to live

peacefully - murder ! Or Control Death !

 

Raam Raam Raam !

 

Beenani S

 

 

------------------------------

Dear Vipra Bandhavaha, evam itare suhridaha,

We must avoid debates and discussion on which modern educated and so

called Western feminist women will have strong view. It is a pity

that they could destroy what they cannot create. See the ten per

cent of married couples who long and yearn for children and are not

blessed so. Think deeply, do not impose your views on others.

Vriddha Divakarosmi Bhoh.

 

------------------------------

Jai Hanuman

 

People often say if the population is not controlled there will be

shortage of eatables on the planet. This poverty , mal nutrition are

only because of population growth. Hence population control is the

answer for all these menaces confronting humanity. Wrong are they!!

Patently wrong ! Absolutely wrong !

 

Taat Shree ( Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj) said that kind of actions

which so called intelligentia advocate to support population

control, kind of sins which are increasingly getting legalised -

what to say eatables and food grains , one will not even get water

as a result .

 

Oh What a pity Jee ! A human being wants to live comfortably and in

order to do that, he wishes/wants to put obstacles in another human

being, in it's being born ! Is that humanity ? That is how you feel

one can bring happiness, order, harmony, pleasure in human life?

Such arguments are in reality a garbage advanced by power hungry

stupid politians to justify mis-management of existing resources and

mislead. Economics !! Sheer Nonsense !

 

Indeed the intellect can get into the spell of what is stated in BG

18:32. This is Kaliyuga Jee. This is how at the last phase of time

cycle, the humans can become. It will worsen in times to come. Ever

heard the term " cannibalism " ? Humans are heading towards the same.

 

Get liberated Jee, Realise Paramatma, O Dear Sadhaks Jee, as fast

as you can. Future will unfold else the circumstances and scenes

which you will never want to see again. Who have been left?. Those

who from Satyuga, to Treta to Dwapar till today have always set

example of BG 18:32. Most of us are in that zone only. Hurry up

Please Jee!

 

See how do they perceive - Hell with your coming on this planet, we

have come first and now we shall not allow you to come ! We will

enjoy the physical relationship, privilege, without letting you

come in Jee. Don't you know who we are Jee? Humans , Humans ! We

are humans !

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

--------------------------

------------------------------

 

Hari Om

 

I am in perfect agreement with Mahalaxmi Dasi and Mike Keenor. Of

course Mira Dass was immaculate as usual, completely relevant and

absolutely correct. Frankly, I can't say so for most of the views of

Mr Naga Narayana. If he wants as a sadhak to know as to why I feel

so , we can discuss briefly through short notes the reasons thereof.

 

Mike- you are right in most of your observations regarding birth

control pills also. That is not bad. But good is copulation timing

and male condoms. Better is " control " over the very desire and the

Best is mating only for giving birth ! ONLY WITH THAT PURPOSE !!

 

Reply of B Sathyanarainji is 100 percent right. No doubt about

that ! Mahalaxmi Dasi's response is one of the best write ups on the

subject , I have ever read.

 

Certainly Sobhanaji. Shame on the males can only be and rightfully

be attributed by females who are 1000 times more able, better and

powerful than males. All powers arise from female - Goddess

Shakti . All glories and happiness in this world arises out of

Goddess Laxmi- again a female. Mother Nature is a female.. You are

entitled to say so ! Sanatan Dharma is in favour of your entitlement

to do so ! My compliments as a sadhak .

 

Operations of males/females so that there is no conception is

extremely bad act. You get disentitled to perform many rituals and

you don't return to God and atmosphoric airs, what was received by

you - for the reasons best known to you only.

 

I have heard this from elders (don't remember if I read somewhere)

that Goddess Mahalaxmi had aborted a child in some human life. Even

after having Lord Naraina (Lord Vishnu) as her husband, she could

never become mother again. As simple as that !!

 

How a man is a man, if he has no powers to become father, has no

reproductive capacity ? Just How? How a woman is a woman if she has

no powers to become mother, has no reproductive capacity ? Just how?

 

But Mike , I really could not understand any relevance of your

reference of over population at the near by place. Really ! If you

mean to say that over population is not desirable and must be

controlled by any one , then I beg to differ with you. We can have a

deliberation on this. Divine deliberation ! Real Satsanga !! Example

setting form of satsanga !

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

----------------------------

 

I agree with you Shobhnaji, thousand percent. Shame on us to keep

treating the women folk with deep rooted disrespect.

 

To others, this is a social issue. And hence does not befit this

forum. Therefore, I desist to respond to the other queries

raised ... Mahabharata and Bhagavadgita are as useful to the society

as to a spiritual aspirant. But … that needs a different forum.

Therefore, let me be brief ...

 

To Dasiji, Vyaasji, Mike and others who have commented on the

feutus's freedom to take life … my question is regarding the freedom

of the person living. Our poor brothern in India has paid heavily on

the rape, violation and enslavement for more than a millenium thanks

to the wrongly preached spiritual values in social life. Again, the

problem is not in the great spiritual values … but, in the

preaching. Bhagavan Vyaasa warns sternly … Na buddhidhedam janayet …

never preach these values … they are only for seekers. Because,

those who do not understand the depth of concepts such as Ahimsa

(non-violence) and Shaanti (peace) would let their natural cowardice

reign their lives. It is the responsibility of a saint to

acknowledge that the world cannot be saintly. Whoever tried to

spread sainthood in the history has achieved nothing but social

fragmentation … sainthood never appeared in humanity so far.

Therefore, if at all spirituality helps, it should let the humans be

just humans first from social perspective.

 

Dasiji feels that the death is not a Godly act while birth is a

Godly act. If their exists a devil against the God, I can only pity

such appreciation of God. Good and bad are our creation in our

illusions. Just because we love birth and hate death, we cannot

project the same ignorance on God. Birth and death are both God's

gifts to us. We should treat both the same way with absolute

respect. If we cannot, at least we should not wield hypocracy to

suit our beliefs.

 

God is not their to protect anybody but has provided everything to

do so oneself. Krishna never fights ... Arjuna has to. If God " had

to " protect, he would have protected the violation of freedom of a

woman in the first place. One who suffers has all the right to

respond to one's own suffering in one's own way. Spirituality cannot

trespass its compassion to preach either way. Such judgment will be

as lopsided as of the Bramhin who tried to interfere with an eagle's

attempt to eat its food, a snake.

 

Vyasji has quoted Karna … the goodness captive in the bad … nothing

but a slave to the bad … committed to serve the bad till death. What

is the use of such goodness? In fact, more harmful to the society!

 

Again, the society should be The Bhima who pulls out the heart of

the beastly violaters enroute. Incidentally, he does not need

Krishna's intervention because Krishna's approval is inherent in all

his actions.

 

Respects.

 

Naga Narayana

 

---------------------------

Namaste

 

DAADU DUNIYA BAAWARI , FIKAR KARE GELI !

ROTI DESI RAMJEE, DOPAARA PELI !!

 

Said Sage Daaduji

 

Mad has gone this world ! Absolutely crazy. It is worrying

unnecessarily out of stupidity. God will provide meals to you before

noon time.

 

Mr Naga Narayana - Worry not ! There is one creator, preserver and

destroyer , called, Paramatma ( Ever heard this name?) who will take

care through Mother Nature about birth, death, fame, illfame,

happiness and sorrow.

 

Said Sage Vashishtha to Bharatji

 

AHO BHARAT BHAAVI PRABAL, BILAKH KAHAT MUNIRAAJ !

HAANI LAABH JEEVAN MARAN, JAS APJAS VIDHI HAATH !!

 

O Bharat ! Destiny is very powerful. Profit, Loss, Death, Birth,

Fame and Ill fame are controlled by Destiny only.

 

Stop giving reasons. Simply dont disturb the Laws of Nature . You

have no rights to do that. What if our fathers also thought in the

similar manner? How we would have been able to become humans then?

Dont we run to a doctor if urine stops ? We are that weak ! Why

should we take responsibility of Creator on our weak shoulders?

Stupidity is that- Isnt it ?

 

HAM EK KHILONE HAIN, EK AISE KHILAADI KE !

JISKO ABHI SADIYON TAK YEH KHEL RACHAANA HAI !!

 

We are toys in the hands of that player, who is yet to continue this

world for centuries and centuries.

 

Chesta Vinod

-----------------------------

Priya Sadhaks

 

Sobhanaji has indeed expressed herself naturally and therefore

powerfully. But only in writing " Shame on you all " ! On balance

there was nothing .

 

Madam ! None is bad here!! Change the vision and you shall start

seeing the ultimate good here ! Try it !

 

Why inflict any shame on any one?

 

At the lotus feet of all of you and of Paramatma

 

MM Purohit

 

 

===============================================================

 

PRIOR POSTING

My dandavats to all in this forum....

 

In regard to the concept of taking pills to prolong health being

" hypocritical " if one is against pills to stop birth......I am

shocked that one with knowledge would dare equate the two concepts.

Doesn't the Supreme Lord appear as Dhanvantari, to give knowledge of

herbs to help human beings? Where is there any reference where the

Supreme Lord would say, " yes, abort this child " ? Anyone can say

anything, but one must analyze according to scripture, if he or she

is to truly benefit the cause of humanity.

Also, I believe it is a myth that there is overpopulation. I

truly believe that mother Bhumi can expand her form, if needed, she

is alive....she is not dead matter. The problem today is

mismanagement of the resources. In the time of Prthu Maharaj,

another incarnation of the Lord mentioned in the Srimad Bhagavatm,

mother earth also withheld fruits and vegetables and grains, as there

was so little sacrifice in the human hearts taking place. On the

threat of Prthu Maharaj, she agreed to produce abundantly. Are

there those who think these stories are simply folk lore?

Again, anyone can say anything, but the laws of material nature

will act, regardless. If I say that the sun will rise in the west,

I can say it every day til I leave this world, but will it happen?

No, it will not. I cannot change the laws of nature. Killing is

sinful, attempting to prevent a soul from entering a womb using any

birth control is sinful, and reactions will come whether one

believes or not. This is the law of karma. Otherwise, if this were

not true, it would stand to reason that there is nothing wrong with

unlimited illicit sexual activity. Yes, just use birth control,

have abortions, enjoy your body all you choose...IS THERE ANYONE WHO

CAN SUPPORT THIS TYPE OF MENTALITY FROM A RELIGIOUS OR DEVOTION TO

GOD STAND-POINT? I don't believe it is possible.

Also, it may be true that the perpetrator of rape is a

rascal....but a woman cannot justify her act of murdering an unborn

child merely because a male chose to act sinfully. The two sins do

not balance each other out. Women must return to their role of

being protectors of society, of righteousness...with no " attitude "

of hatred toward the ignorance of males, otherwise the love and grace

of Laksmi will never again flow abundantly on this planet.

The " blame game " should not be for those of saintly character.

 

Respectfully submitted,

Mahalaksmmi Dasi

-------------------------------

-Shree Hari-

I found the comments by Naga Narayana and Meera Das absorbing, the

full spectrum as it were.

OK there was a program on TV here, that showed an abortion, not

simulated, the real thing, the apparatus used was a sort of vacuum

device the sucked the life from the womb.

As I watched this, I experienced something unusual, I had no

emotions, it was as if I were stone, no anger no horror, I was in the

presence of demonic evil, somehow my emotions retreated, my defenses

were up, sometimes evil can be so great it seems, that words and

reactions have no place.

What I saw, I never want to see again,.

Preventing conception, is not killing of life, there is timing of

copulation, condoms, barriers, and birth control pills; they do not

abort, I personally think that the birth control pill may have

dangers, as it interferes with normal bodily functions.

However if the pill prevents the resort to abortion, then so be it.

If a woman is raped, the fetus is not the intruder, the brute who

raped her is. Punish him by the full force of the law, not the fetus.

(I understand in some countries, it's almost impossible to be charged

with rape, and the victims can be punished, how terrible!)

 

I have personally witnessed, the stinking mire that over population,

poverty, animals and humans living in close proximity, the over

powering smell of camels, goats , and sewage, and what it does to

people.

 

So on the subject of abortion, I see strength in Meera Das point of

view, and on birth control, I think Naga Narayana, has sound

arguments.

 

With Respect and Divine Love.

 

Mike Keenor

------------------------------

What about the karma of the men who rape? All the views expressed

here do not take into account that women are human beings, have

feelings and have the right to perhaps cleanse themselves of the

sins committed by men. Abortion is the only way to cleanse such sin

committed by men, who are " protectors " and hide behind religious

views.

 

Shame on all of you.

Shobhna S. Kumar

-------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Hari Om

 

Under no circumstance, even if the circumstance is life

threatening - the sin of abortion should not be done.

Any happenning in our life is outcome of our own karma meted out by

God's laws through nature. Law of Karma is precise and accurate in

its operation.

 

Every incidence has kripa (benevolence) of God hidden in it. Every

adverse incident provides you an opportunity to get closer to God by

right conduct and right utilisation of given circumstance. The human

birth has not been given for petty comforts and worldly pleasures.

It is a challenging, sadhan ( striving for God Realisation) form of

life. The austerity resulting from given adverse circumstances is

God sent/willed as per our own prior deeds.One must take such God

sent austerities as an opportunity for spiritual advancement. One

must perceive the human life as a special form of life- not to enjoy

worldly pleasures but to happily do one's duty without caring for

one's right and another's duty. Job is already on hand, of giving

birth to the innocent child, the duty is already on hand. The

aggrieved should take it so, give birth to the child, and thereafter

she may handover the child to orphanage etc.

 

One must be " careful in " doing " , and happy in " happening "

(result) " . No circumstance can force you to commit new sins.

 

Sanatan Dharma Scriptures deal with every type of circumstance.

Similar circumstance was faced by Kunti also. Kunti was mother of

Karna conceived when she was unmarried through Sun. She gave birth

to the child and silently surrendered the child to the mother

nature. Karna went on to be a part of history forever. Karna earned

admiration of all , including from Lord Krishna. He was one of the

greatest philanthropist the Indian soil has ever produced. He

redefined the art of giving/donating/ renunciation. He was " tyaag

murti " . Karna was the eldest son of Kunti- elder than

Yuddhister/Bhim/Arjuna/Nakul/Sahdev.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

--------------------------

HELLO SIR,

Your own conscience is the best guide. follow it. In so doing see

that your action does not harm the other person. Follow the maxim "

do unto others what you expect from others " That's what the Mahatma

Gandhi said, " I look to my inner self for guidance when I am in

trouble " . So said Lord Buddha too.

Ramachander Homma

--------------------------

Dear Sadaks,

If a lady conceives, it is not her wish or effort. Many women even

after marriage do not concieve. Why? The child to be born is

predecided by the Karma of that soul. In certain cases the child

gets aborted naturally, which is no way connected with anybody or

Sin.

But to abort a child is wrong. The cause is abortion and the effect

is the lady who aborted the child, will have rebirth as lady who

will have no issues (children). This lady who aborted can even be a

tree in her next birth, where the tree does not yield fruits. The

rebirth depends on once Paapas (sins) and Puniyas (virtues).

Referance Garbopanashid.

B.Sathyanarayan

--------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

I resonate totally with the views expressed by Naga Narayanji on

this subject.

No action in itself is right or wrong without regard to

circumstances surrounding it.

An action such as abortion may be right in one set of circumstances

and wrong in another set of circumstances. In otherwords, actions

are not inherently right or wrong.

There are many examples in daily life where we can see this to be

true.

I think that right action comes to one who is steadfast on the path

of righteousness (dharma), and seeks all decisions from the Totality

of Being(THAT) and never as an individual! In such cases interest of

all parties involved in actions are duly considered by THAT. Such

actions are God taking actions through people for people.

Namaskaras........Pratap Bhatt

 

--------------------------

 

PRIOR POSTING

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

As our scriptures says - if we believe that we are the Atma (Soul,

Spirit, Individual Consciousness), and if we also believe that human

life is the rarest form of birth (1 of 8.4 million species in this

Universe), and that only in this human form of life, one can attain

freedom from all bondages, one can realize their true nature, one

can attain salvation, one can realize eternal bliss, one can develop

love of God… etc., then common sense says that what Swamiji says is

without any doubt to be accepted - i.e. we have no right to stop

the evolution of a Soul, by creating roadblocks in it's evolution

cycle. This roadblock that we place on another souls' progress, to

not allow it an opportunity for salvation, will definitely have it's

consequences and is a grave sin. Most of the times, we sin due to

desire for our own happiness, self protection, comforts, betterment,

selfish reasons, and if we look at it from that perspective, also

the reason for abortions are also mostly for the same reasons, for a

little convenience and happiness, we are destroying another life,

and not allowing it to be born as a human, a soul that could have

realized the Self / God, and attain salvation etc.

 

Swamiji has said it is briefly addressed in Gita, under demoniac

tendencies. Gita 16:9 " Prabhavantyu grakarmaanah kshayaaya

jagatohitaah. " " Not believing in the eternal soul, the demoniac

natured appear as enemies of the world, for its destruction. " Gita

16:9

Unknowingly we destroy and kill helpless lives, and are hoping the

we will be benefited. How can we be benefited? How can we attain

salvation?

" Jaan-jaanker mook, asamarth jivon ki hatyaa karte ho aur caahete ho

ki hamaaraa bhallaa ho jaaye; kaise ho jaayegaa? kalyaan kaise ho

jaayegaa ?

 

For their selfish motives, such demoniac people indulge in violence,

murder and usurpation etc., without thinking of the pain, which they

inflict upon others.

" Dharmasarvasva suno, aur sunker dhaaran kar lo. Jo aacharan apnese

pratikool ho, usko dusero ke prati mat karo. "

 

Looking at a broader more Universal perspective, who truly takes

care of the 8.4 millions species? Do we? What arrogance to think

that we alone have the right and the burden of responsibility for

that conceived fetus? In many countries, one has to wait for years

and pay a huge amount, to adopt a child. Our ego and selfishness is

causing us to not give this opportunity to another soul and to

instead sin.

 

Not only that, many women who visited Swamiji after having undergone

several abortions, found their bodies to be significantly weakened,

undergoing several irreversible health problems. (I am truly

unaware of the medical and health implications, as this is based

only on experiences / problems that women shared with Swamiji).

 

After listening to Swamiji / reading his thoughts from books for a

number of years, after listening to the way He responded to question

and answers, there was never a question that he could not answer to

one's satisfaction. He had thought about everything he shared,

deeply for a long time, before he even uttered a word or stated

something firmly. In my opinion, Swamiji and all the major

religions of the world that believe in pro-life cannot be wrong!

 

Hope this helps.

Meera Das

Ram Ram

-------------------------------

Sanity and Sanctity of Birth-Control and Abortion

 

Many religions are committed to the propaganda of the idea of anti-

abortion and anti-birth-control strongly even in the so-called

advanced societies such as West. I strongly advocate that this is an

extremely lopsided vision from both social as well as natural

persepctives. By the way, spirituality has nothing to do with it!

 

We hear a lot like " birth is God's Grace and hence we should not

intefere; any such intereference is the greed, selfishness and

arrogance of humans against God's Grace " . I agree with it completely

ONLY IF it is also appreciated in tandem that " death is also God's

Grace and hence we should not interfere with that as well " . Death is

part of the creation as much as the birth. Is it OK to exercise our

ego to interfere with THAT when we are trying all we could do to

avoid/postpone the death? Isn't it the same greed and arrogance in

action in this case as well? Are we not disgracing ourselves by not

believing God's will in our death??

 

My suggestion to the birth-promoters is, " do not take a single pill

to interfere with God's will in the deseases, aging as well as in

death. Then, you are entitled to claim that one should not

interefere with God's will. " Taking all medicinal help to promote

our survival rate and life span on one hand and rejecting the same

for birth control on the other hand is hypocracy. Such attitude is

utterly (1) anti-nature resulting in lopsided population growth of

one single species on this earth; and (2) anti-society resulting in

undue stress of life demands overwhelming the resources. As far as

death control is excercised, one should allow the birth control to

balance the act in any soceity. That is social sanity and that is

natural sanctity.

 

Again, promoting one's material life on this earth is not at all the

agenda of Bhagavad Gita. The agenda is to cleanse the life we have

already taken … to learn how to live it well and how to leave it as

well. That does not remove any of our social responsibilities and

natural obligations. One can get liberated from the social

responsibilities by accepting the nature – birth and death alike. On

the other hand, one cannot get liberated from the natural

obligations till one lives.

 

Also, abusing the spiritual texts for social promotion is incorrect

and can lead to become frantically religious and religiously

fanatic. Bhagavaan Vyaasa advocates to never preach spirituality to

one who cannot appreciate it for one with half-baked knowledge will

lead to natural catastrophies such as population explosion which

eventually culminates in social catastrophies such as wars.

 

Na buddhibhedam janayet agnyaanaam karmasanginaam |

Joshayet sarva karmaani vidvaanyuktassamaacharan ||

 

For social issues such as abortion one should adapt common sense and

social awareness that reflects the circumstantial reality. If the

woman is forced to bear a feutus against her will, she has all the

rights to terminate the same. I request the same preachers to catch

hold of the male beasts that cause such distress in the fisrt place

and terminate them instead. Nobody has any right to interfere in

this matter when one cannot share the burden of the socio-economical

implications let alone the physio-psychological distress imposed

upon the victim. Why should an innocent woman suffer because of a

beastly male? Society should be The Bhima who pulls out the heart of

such beasts enroute. Incidentally, he does not need Krishna's

intervention because Krishna's approval is inherent in all his

actions.

 

Respects.

 

Naga Narayana

------------------------------

Dear Sir ,

 

You mentioned the shloka:

" Yat paapam brahmahattyaa dvigunam garbhapaatane; Praayashchitam ne

tasyaasti tatsyaasyaago vidhiyate " (Parasharsmriti 4:20).

 

Please let me know if you know any more details about this Shloka.

 

I am planning to put up boards with slogan in the villages with this

verse picture of Lord Krishna and Radha and duly translated thus :

 

BRUNE HATYA JO KARE HOGA MAHAAPAP

VIDHATA KA USSKO LAGEGA BHANKAR SHRAAP.

 

Any idea of better slogan? or any other thoughts on this?

 

Prem Khullar

-------------------------------

 

PRIOR POSTING

Hare Krishna

 

Answer to Question 1

 

Prashantji, I am pasting the answer of your question from Swamiji's

book " Sadhan-Sudha-Sindhu " page 960.

 

Q. If it becomes compulsory for woman to abort the baby due to an

infection, then what should she do?

 

A. She will definitely incur the sin of abortion. For protecting

woman people abort the baby but this should not be done. What has to

happen will indeed happen. If the woman has to die then even after

abortion she will die. If she is destined to live longer then she

will not die even if she chooses not to abort. Whatever may be the

cause of death, it will only arrive when the time is up. So abortion

should never be done.

 

Q. Should abortion be carried out in case an unmarried woman becomes

pregnant?

 

A. That boy and girl should marry who had pre-marital sex. If the

marriage is not possible then also abortion should not be done. The

girl should nurture that child and give him/her to an orphanage or

give it to someone who wants to adopt a child.

 

If a woman is raped then the rapist will incur terrible sin. If the

woman has derived pleasure from that then she will also incur sin.

All sins emanate from sensual desire. So the amount of sin will be

in direct proportion with the pleasure derived by that woman. If the

woman did not take any pleasure then she will not incur sin.

 

If an unmarried woman is pregnant then her parents will also incur

sin for their carelessness. It is a must for parents that they take

utmost care of their daughter and not give her excessive

independence.

 

Q. If society comes to know about it then she will become infamous

and no one will marry her?

 

A. After committing sin one has to bear defamation. Abortion,

suicide and running from home. In comparison to these three sins,

it's better to bear the defamation. If no one is willing to marry

her then she should reside in her father's house and spend her life

in worshipping God. This will be penance for her which will destroy

her sins.

 

Q. If a married woman is raped and she becomes pregnant then what

should be done?

 

A. It is better for her to be quiet. If husband comes to know about

it then he should also remain quiet. The couple's slience is best

for them. In reality, one should always be attentive from the

beginning so that such kind of situations do not arise. My

suggestion is not for abortion because it is an ultimate sin

(MahaPaap).

 

Answer to Question 2

 

Shri Khullarji, you are indeed doing great social service by

rescuing women from committing sins like abortion etc. This society

needs people like you.

 

Gita doesn't specifically mention about abortion. It strikes the

root of sin i.e. desire and God has spoken at length on it. Read

Gita (3-36, 37 and 16-21, 23, 24)

 

Premji, Gitapress has published 2 books.

 

Matrishakti Ka Ghor Apman (Code 420)

Desh Ki Vartaman Dash Aur Uska Parinam (Code 617)

Check the details at www.gitapress.org. You can use these 2 books

for your purpose.

 

These 2 books are also included in a 1000 page book Sadhan-Sudha-

Sindhu (Code 465). It is a compilation of more than 40 books of

Swamiji's teachings.

 

Thanks,

 

Hare Krishna

Varun P. Paprunia

-------------------------------

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

From Gita Talk Moderator:

 

" Sadhan, Sudha, Sindhu " in Hindi by Swami Ramsukhdasji, can be

viewed online for free at:

 

http://www.swamiramsukhdasji.org/swamijibooks/pustak/pustak1/html/sad

hansudhasindhu/main.html

Ram Ram

 

-------------------------------

:Shree Hari:

Ram Ram

 

26th September, 2008, Friday

Ashwin Krishna Dvaadashi, Vikram Samvat 2065, Shukravar

 

" Mana jaane sab baat, jaan boojh avaguna kare

kyon chaahat kusalaat, ker deepak koonye pade. "

 

At present times such terrible and fearsome sins are taking place,

that simply by listening, one's hair stands on ends, eyes become

filled with tears, and heart is deeply moved ! Ram Ram Ram, what

terrible unjustice, what fearsome sins are taking place, but your

attention is not going there at all ! Human body is said to be the

rarest of all all forms of life -

" Durlabho maanushyo deho dehinaam shunabhangurah " (Srimad Bhagavat

11:2:29)

" Labdhvaa sudurlabhmidam bahusambhvaante,

maanushyamarthdamnityampeeh dheerah " (Srimad Bhagavat 11:9:29)

" bade bhaag maanushya tanu paava. Sur durlabh sab granthnhi

gaava. " (Manas 7:43:7)

 

Such a rare human body, is being destroyed at the very beginning.

It is being cut up along with the jeev, and this is such a great

offense, it is such injustice, it is a terrible sin! My mind feels

immense pain, it is feeling great distress, but what to do! The

human body by which one can realize God, to not allow that human

body to even be born, and to destroy it, it is the ultimate sin !

To not allow some soul the opportunity to receive a human body, to

not allow that human body to even be born, to take medication from

the beginning and destroy it, through abortion or any other means.

One has stooped so low - not only to think about going to hell

themselves, but at the same time not even allowing another soul the

opportunity for upliftment, for benediction ! Now what is one to

do? Who to share this with? And who will listen to my point? Is

there no one listening ?

 

For ascetics it has been written in the scriptures to not travel

much during " Chaturmaas " (four months in a year during the rains).

Because during these month, due to the rains, every seed grows into

a sappling, which later grows into a tree. By extensive traveling,

walking, these seedlings come under the feet and are destroyed.

Therefore during this four month period, the ascetics do not walk

and roam around much, so that unknowingly no violence is done to any

life form. In Bhagavat it has been said, that if you wish to gain

victory over violence, then reduce the movement of the body -

" hinsaa kaayaadhyaneehayaa. " (Bhagavat 7:15:23). When there is

so much thought put into non-violence around immovable things, then

what to speak on the subject of movable beings? But nowadays, the

best of all movable life forms, better than even the devatas, the

human body, is being contemplated for destruction, what a state of

affairs we are in ! (to be continued)

 

From " Saadhan, Sudhaa, Sindhu " pg 946 in Hindi by Swami Ramsukhdasji

 

For full online discourses in Hindi, please visit Swami

Ramsukhdasji's website. http://www.swamiramsukhdasji.org

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Dear Sadhakas, This passage has moved me deeply. One should still

think about the fact that abortion is wrong. Firstly when a woman or

a man, yes a man can be raped by a woman for his seed. If raped, the

fact is the baby formed is not at fault. One does not have the right

to kill a child just because of that fact.

 

QUESTION 1: What would be such a case when rape occurs and the

child is aborted?

your comments please. Prashanth

---------------------

Dear Sir I read the SADAK dt 26 september 2008 regularly . I read

the following verse in your letter dated 27/09/08.

QUESTION 2: In the Paaraashersmriti - " Yat paapam brahmahattyaa

dvigunam garbhapaatane; Praayashchitam ne tasyaasti tatsyaasyaago

vidhiyate " Can you correctly guide me as to where do I find this

writing below, also does Gita make any reference to this? I wish to

quote it in my meetings in the villages against the female feticide.

(aborting female fetus)

thanks, Kindly do clarify and oblige,

prem khullar

-------------------------------

NEW POSTING

 

Do any of you have any more details on this shloka from Paaraasher

Smriti - " Yat paapam brahmahattyaa dvigunam garbhapaatane;

Praayashchitam ne tasyaasti tatsyaasyaago vidhiyate " . Kindly let me

know any other scriptures where abortion is mentioned as sinful.

Gita shloka does not clearly point to abortion per se. The source

is important, therefore do provide it, along with the quote /

shloka.

 

I am in process of creating slogans for big display boards for

villages and cities of Haryana where female feticide is spreading

like wild fire. Please suggest good slogan ! Please help

immediately.

Sincerely - Prem Khullar.

---------------------------

 

Namaste,

 

Manu's verse ' yatra naaryastu pUjyante ramante tatra devatAh' ( the

gods rejoice/ are happy, where the woman is worshipped) is, I feel,

a powerful message to inculcate respect for women at whichever stage

she may be.

 

Shubhamastu

Anuradha Choudry

------------------------------

-Shree Hari_

 

Clarification: I was reflecting on a place where I once lived long

ago, I was not in poverty but I saw much of it. I would never ever

imply that one should hold a dagger, as it were, at peoples throat,

and demand they follow, rules on their personal behavior , it is the

opposite to what I am. Options can be shown to them, not killing.

 

Many people revert to medicines of some sort or another, for various

conditions, and it often means the death of some organism or other.

In reality many are based on herbs, and a vegetable origin.

In passing my preference is homeopathy.

 

If I get or any person gets bitten by a snake around here, then to

the hospital quick smart, for an antidote, not to is death. (why die

if one can prevent it?)

 

Driven by compassion one would like to see people live life in

comfort and happiness, why not?

 

Yes Divine Feminine 'Shakti', (she is universal), has been suppressed

for thousands of years, and the world has become unbalanced, she has

to sit with her consort once more.

 

My thoughts are exhausted on the subject, I will just read on.

 

With Respect and Divine Love,

 

Mike Keenor

--------------------------------

 

Raam Raam Raam

 

Great Suggestion is that either you dont make efforts to remain

healthy, to cure any illnesses OR we are justified in stopping new

births into this world. Either you control death or we shall control

birth. As simple as that. Why you are taking medicines to cure

fever ? If you are taking medicines, then we shall abort the child.

What shall the child do in this planet? Oh No ! Kill him. Modern

societies cant tolerate this non sense of humans coming on this

planet so fast. Where is the space ? Where is housing for them ? Who

will arrange for their food, water, upkeep, maintenance? How costly

are the living now a days ? We want freedom ! We have come on this

planet, and after applying our minds we have concluded that in

modern societies such non sensical obstacles to sensual pleasures is

unwarranted ! Kill them . Stop them from coming to this world. Now

that we have come into this planet, where is the need for any other?

It is these new arrivals that has made this world so bad, and

unlivable. No , Sorry ! We cant let them enter. Kill the fetus.

Simply kill ! All problems are only because of that only ! Kill the

fetus in the womb itself. Suck the life out of it. Let us enjoy. We

never wanted the child. We just wanted to enjoy the human life. From

where this conception hascome ? Oh , dont worry kill the fetus ! We

are modern, we are not orthodox people. If we dont stop human beings

from coming to this world, then what shall be the difference between

us and animals. Animals mate only when there is season for mating.

They have to exercise restraints and disciplines- not the human

beings. Animals are animals only because they mate only when there

is a season. We are not animals. We are human beings. We shall mate

anytime we want - morning evening, day, night, January, April, June

any time, any month. What a fun ! What an obstacle to this fun is

this conception. That is spoil sport. Kill the fetus. After all we

are privileged, we are intelligent. We can invent devices to kill

them anytime. Science is pretty advanced. Vacuum cleaners. Suck the

life out of that creature. What the fetus thought we are so stupid.

Gone are those old concepts of father, mother, protector ! Non

sense. We have mind, intellect, beautiful body. This conception

is undesirable - a simple nuisance! We have thought over it, all

problems are only because of increase in population. From where the

additional income will come? From where we shall feed the children ?

No ! Not Possible!! Our leaders also say so. Entire economy is in

mess only because of this over population. Enjoy mating, but kill

fetus. Where is the need for child here ? Shall we eat ourselves or

get entangled in arranging food for them ? Are we so stupids ? Come

On ! Either you control death or we shall abort !!! We are modern

humans. Kill the fetus. No arguments. Kill ! If you want to live

peacefully - murder ! Or Control Death !

 

Raam Raam Raam !

 

Beenani S

 

------------------------------

Dear Vipra Bandhavaha, evam itare suhridaha,

We must avoid debates and discussion on which modern educated and so

called Western feminist women will have strong view. It is a pity

that they could destroy what they cannot create. See the ten per

cent of married couples who long and yearn for children and are not

blessed so. Think deeply, do not impose your views on others.

Vriddha Divakarosmi Bhoh.

 

------------------------------

Jai Hanuman

 

People often say if the population is not controlled there will be

shortage of eatables on the planet. This poverty , mal nutrition are

only because of population growth. Hence population control is the

answer for all these menaces confronting humanity. Wrong are they!!

Patently wrong ! Absolutely wrong !

 

Taat Shree ( Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj) said that kind of actions

which so called intelligentia advocate to support population

control, kind of sins which are increasingly getting legalised -

what to say eatables and food grains , one will not even get water

as a result .

 

Oh What a pity Jee ! A human being wants to live comfortably and in

order to do that, he wishes/wants to put obstacles in another human

being, in it's being born ! Is that humanity ? That is how you feel

one can bring happiness, order, harmony, pleasure in human life?

Such arguments are in reality a garbage advanced by power hungry

stupid politians to justify mis-management of existing resources and

mislead. Economics !! Sheer Nonsense !

 

Indeed the intellect can get into the spell of what is stated in BG

18:32. This is Kaliyuga Jee. This is how at the last phase of time

cycle, the humans can become. It will worsen in times to come. Ever

heard the term " cannibalism " ? Humans are heading towards the same.

 

Get liberated Jee, Realise Paramatma, O Dear Sadhaks Jee, as fast

as you can. Future will unfold else the circumstances and scenes

which you will never want to see again. Who have been left?. Those

who from Satyuga, to Treta to Dwapar till today have always set

example of BG 18:32. Most of us are in that zone only. Hurry up

Please Jee!

 

See how do they perceive - Hell with your coming on this planet, we

have come first and now we shall not allow you to come ! We will

enjoy the physical relationship, privilege, without letting you

come in Jee. Don't you know who we are Jee? Humans , Humans ! We

are humans !

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

--------------------------

------------------------------

 

Hari Om

 

I am in perfect agreement with Mahalaxmi Dasi and Mike Keenor. Of

course Mira Dass was immaculate as usual, completely relevant and

absolutely correct. Frankly, I can't say so for most of the views of

Mr Naga Narayana. If he wants as a sadhak to know as to why I feel

so , we can discuss briefly through short notes the reasons thereof.

 

Mike- you are right in most of your observations regarding birth

control pills also. That is not bad. But good is copulation timing

and male condoms. Better is " control " over the very desire and the

Best is mating only for giving birth ! ONLY WITH THAT PURPOSE !!

 

Reply of B Sathyanarainji is 100 percent right. No doubt about

that ! Mahalaxmi Dasi's response is one of the best write ups on the

subject , I have ever read.

 

Certainly Sobhanaji. Shame on the males can only be and rightfully

be attributed by females who are 1000 times more able, better and

powerful than males. All powers arise from female - Goddess

Shakti . All glories and happiness in this world arises out of

Goddess Laxmi- again a female. Mother Nature is a female.. You are

entitled to say so ! Sanatan Dharma is in favour of your entitlement

to do so ! My compliments as a sadhak .

 

Operations of males/females so that there is no conception is

extremely bad act. You get disentitled to perform many rituals and

you don't return to God and atmosphoric airs, what was received by

you - for the reasons best known to you only.

 

I have heard this from elders (don't remember if I read somewhere)

that Goddess Mahalaxmi had aborted a child in some human life. Even

after having Lord Naraina (Lord Vishnu) as her husband, she could

never become mother again. As simple as that !!

 

How a man is a man, if he has no powers to become father, has no

reproductive capacity ? Just How? How a woman is a woman if she has

no powers to become mother, has no reproductive capacity ? Just how?

 

But Mike , I really could not understand any relevance of your

reference of over population at the near by place. Really ! If you

mean to say that over population is not desirable and must be

controlled by any one , then I beg to differ with you. We can have a

deliberation on this. Divine deliberation ! Real Satsanga !! Example

setting form of satsanga !

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

----------------------------

 

I agree with you Shobhnaji, thousand percent. Shame on us to keep

treating the women folk with deep rooted disrespect.

 

To others, this is a social issue. And hence does not befit this

forum. Therefore, I desist to respond to the other queries

raised ... Mahabharata and Bhagavadgita are as useful to the society

as to a spiritual aspirant. But … that needs a different forum.

Therefore, let me be brief ...

 

To Dasiji, Vyaasji, Mike and others who have commented on the

feutus's freedom to take life … my question is regarding the freedom

of the person living. Our poor brothern in India has paid heavily on

the rape, violation and enslavement for more than a millenium thanks

to the wrongly preached spiritual values in social life. Again, the

problem is not in the great spiritual values … but, in the

preaching. Bhagavan Vyaasa warns sternly … Na buddhidhedam janayet …

never preach these values … they are only for seekers. Because,

those who do not understand the depth of concepts such as Ahimsa

(non-violence) and Shaanti (peace) would let their natural cowardice

reign their lives. It is the responsibility of a saint to

acknowledge that the world cannot be saintly. Whoever tried to

spread sainthood in the history has achieved nothing but social

fragmentation … sainthood never appeared in humanity so far.

Therefore, if at all spirituality helps, it should let the humans be

just humans first from social perspective.

 

Dasiji feels that the death is not a Godly act while birth is a

Godly act. If their exists a devil against the God, I can only pity

such appreciation of God. Good and bad are our creation in our

illusions. Just because we love birth and hate death, we cannot

project the same ignorance on God. Birth and death are both God's

gifts to us. We should treat both the same way with absolute

respect. If we cannot, at least we should not wield hypocracy to

suit our beliefs.

 

God is not their to protect anybody but has provided everything to

do so oneself. Krishna never fights ... Arjuna has to. If God " had

to " protect, he would have protected the violation of freedom of a

woman in the first place. One who suffers has all the right to

respond to one's own suffering in one's own way. Spirituality cannot

trespass its compassion to preach either way. Such judgment will be

as lopsided as of the Bramhin who tried to interfere with an eagle's

attempt to eat its food, a snake.

 

Vyasji has quoted Karna … the goodness captive in the bad … nothing

but a slave to the bad … committed to serve the bad till death. What

is the use of such goodness? In fact, more harmful to the society!

 

Again, the society should be The Bhima who pulls out the heart of

the beastly violaters enroute. Incidentally, he does not need

Krishna's intervention because Krishna's approval is inherent in all

his actions.

 

Respects.

 

Naga Narayana

 

---------------------------

Namaste

 

DAADU DUNIYA BAAWARI , FIKAR KARE GELI !

ROTI DESI RAMJEE, DOPAARA PELI !!

 

Said Sage Daaduji

 

Mad has gone this world ! Absolutely crazy. It is worrying

unnecessarily out of stupidity. God will provide meals to you before

noon time.

 

Mr Naga Narayana - Worry not ! There is one creator, preserver and

destroyer , called, Paramatma ( Ever heard this name?) who will take

care through Mother Nature about birth, death, fame, illfame,

happiness and sorrow.

 

Said Sage Vashishtha to Bharatji

 

AHO BHARAT BHAAVI PRABAL, BILAKH KAHAT MUNIRAAJ !

HAANI LAABH JEEVAN MARAN, JAS APJAS VIDHI HAATH !!

 

O Bharat ! Destiny is very powerful. Profit, Loss, Death, Birth,

Fame and Ill fame are controlled by Destiny only.

 

Stop giving reasons. Simply dont disturb the Laws of Nature . You

have no rights to do that. What if our fathers also thought in the

similar manner? How we would have been able to become humans then?

Dont we run to a doctor if urine stops ? We are that weak ! Why

should we take responsibility of Creator on our weak shoulders?

Stupidity is that- Isnt it ?

 

HAM EK KHILONE HAIN, EK AISE KHILAADI KE !

JISKO ABHI SADIYON TAK YEH KHEL RACHAANA HAI !!

 

We are toys in the hands of that player, who is yet to continue this

world for centuries and centuries.

 

Chesta Vinod

-----------------------------

Priya Sadhaks

 

Sobhanaji has indeed expressed herself naturally and therefore

powerfully. But only in writing " Shame on you all " ! On balance

there was nothing .

 

Madam ! None is bad here!! Change the vision and you shall start

seeing the ultimate good here ! Try it !

 

Why inflict any shame on any one?

 

At the lotus feet of all of you and of Paramatma

 

MM Purohit

 

 

===============================================================

 

PRIOR POSTING

My dandavats to all in this forum....

 

In regard to the concept of taking pills to prolong health being

" hypocritical " if one is against pills to stop birth......I am

shocked that one with knowledge would dare equate the two concepts.

Doesn't the Supreme Lord appear as Dhanvantari, to give knowledge of

herbs to help human beings? Where is there any reference where the

Supreme Lord would say, " yes, abort this child " ? Anyone can say

anything, but one must analyze according to scripture, if he or she

is to truly benefit the cause of humanity.

Also, I believe it is a myth that there is overpopulation. I

truly believe that mother Bhumi can expand her form, if needed, she

is alive....she is not dead matter. The problem today is

mismanagement of the resources. In the time of Prthu Maharaj,

another incarnation of the Lord mentioned in the Srimad Bhagavatm,

mother earth also withheld fruits and vegetables and grains, as there

was so little sacrifice in the human hearts taking place. On the

threat of Prthu Maharaj, she agreed to produce abundantly. Are

there those who think these stories are simply folk lore?

Again, anyone can say anything, but the laws of material nature

will act, regardless. If I say that the sun will rise in the west,

I can say it every day til I leave this world, but will it happen?

No, it will not. I cannot change the laws of nature. Killing is

sinful, attempting to prevent a soul from entering a womb using any

birth control is sinful, and reactions will come whether one

believes or not. This is the law of karma. Otherwise, if this were

not true, it would stand to reason that there is nothing wrong with

unlimited illicit sexual activity. Yes, just use birth control,

have abortions, enjoy your body all you choose...IS THERE ANYONE WHO

CAN SUPPORT THIS TYPE OF MENTALITY FROM A RELIGIOUS OR DEVOTION TO

GOD STAND-POINT? I don't believe it is possible.

Also, it may be true that the perpetrator of rape is a

rascal....but a woman cannot justify her act of murdering an unborn

child merely because a male chose to act sinfully. The two sins do

not balance each other out. Women must return to their role of

being protectors of society, of righteousness...with no " attitude "

of hatred toward the ignorance of males, otherwise the love and grace

of Laksmi will never again flow abundantly on this planet.

The " blame game " should not be for those of saintly character.

 

Respectfully submitted,

Mahalaksmmi Dasi

-------------------------------

-Shree Hari-

I found the comments by Naga Narayana and Meera Das absorbing, the

full spectrum as it were.

OK there was a program on TV here, that showed an abortion, not

simulated, the real thing, the apparatus used was a sort of vacuum

device the sucked the life from the womb.

As I watched this, I experienced something unusual, I had no

emotions, it was as if I were stone, no anger no horror, I was in the

presence of demonic evil, somehow my emotions retreated, my defenses

were up, sometimes evil can be so great it seems, that words and

reactions have no place.

What I saw, I never want to see again,.

Preventing conception, is not killing of life, there is timing of

copulation, condoms, barriers, and birth control pills; they do not

abort, I personally think that the birth control pill may have

dangers, as it interferes with normal bodily functions.

However if the pill prevents the resort to abortion, then so be it.

If a woman is raped, the fetus is not the intruder, the brute who

raped her is. Punish him by the full force of the law, not the fetus.

(I understand in some countries, it's almost impossible to be charged

with rape, and the victims can be punished, how terrible!)

 

I have personally witnessed, the stinking mire that over population,

poverty, animals and humans living in close proximity, the over

powering smell of camels, goats , and sewage, and what it does to

people.

 

So on the subject of abortion, I see strength in Meera Das point of

view, and on birth control, I think Naga Narayana, has sound

arguments.

 

With Respect and Divine Love.

 

Mike Keenor

------------------------------

What about the karma of the men who rape? All the views expressed

here do not take into account that women are human beings, have

feelings and have the right to perhaps cleanse themselves of the

sins committed by men. Abortion is the only way to cleanse such sin

committed by men, who are " protectors " and hide behind religious

views.

 

Shame on all of you.

Shobhna S. Kumar

-------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Hari Om

 

Under no circumstance, even if the circumstance is life

threatening - the sin of abortion should not be done.

Any happenning in our life is outcome of our own karma meted out by

God's laws through nature. Law of Karma is precise and accurate in

its operation.

 

Every incidence has kripa (benevolence) of God hidden in it. Every

adverse incident provides you an opportunity to get closer to God by

right conduct and right utilisation of given circumstance. The human

birth has not been given for petty comforts and worldly pleasures.

It is a challenging, sadhan ( striving for God Realisation) form of

life. The austerity resulting from given adverse circumstances is

God sent/willed as per our own prior deeds.One must take such God

sent austerities as an opportunity for spiritual advancement. One

must perceive the human life as a special form of life- not to enjoy

worldly pleasures but to happily do one's duty without caring for

one's right and another's duty. Job is already on hand, of giving

birth to the innocent child, the duty is already on hand. The

aggrieved should take it so, give birth to the child, and thereafter

she may handover the child to orphanage etc.

 

One must be " careful in " doing " , and happy in " happening "

(result) " . No circumstance can force you to commit new sins.

 

Sanatan Dharma Scriptures deal with every type of circumstance.

Similar circumstance was faced by Kunti also. Kunti was mother of

Karna conceived when she was unmarried through Sun. She gave birth

to the child and silently surrendered the child to the mother

nature. Karna went on to be a part of history forever. Karna earned

admiration of all , including from Lord Krishna. He was one of the

greatest philanthropist the Indian soil has ever produced. He

redefined the art of giving/donating/ renunciation. He was " tyaag

murti " . Karna was the eldest son of Kunti- elder than

Yuddhister/Bhim/Arjuna/Nakul/Sahdev.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

--------------------------

HELLO SIR,

Your own conscience is the best guide. follow it. In so doing see

that your action does not harm the other person. Follow the maxim "

do unto others what you expect from others " That's what the Mahatma

Gandhi said, " I look to my inner self for guidance when I am in

trouble " . So said Lord Buddha too.

Ramachander Homma

--------------------------

Dear Sadaks,

If a lady conceives, it is not her wish or effort. Many women even

after marriage do not concieve. Why? The child to be born is

predecided by the Karma of that soul. In certain cases the child

gets aborted naturally, which is no way connected with anybody or

Sin.

But to abort a child is wrong. The cause is abortion and the effect

is the lady who aborted the child, will have rebirth as lady who

will have no issues (children). This lady who aborted can even be a

tree in her next birth, where the tree does not yield fruits. The

rebirth depends on once Paapas (sins) and Puniyas (virtues).

Referance Garbopanashid.

B.Sathyanarayan

--------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

I resonate totally with the views expressed by Naga Narayanji on

this subject.

No action in itself is right or wrong without regard to

circumstances surrounding it.

An action such as abortion may be right in one set of circumstances

and wrong in another set of circumstances. In otherwords, actions

are not inherently right or wrong.

There are many examples in daily life where we can see this to be

true.

I think that right action comes to one who is steadfast on the path

of righteousness (dharma), and seeks all decisions from the Totality

of Being(THAT) and never as an individual! In such cases interest of

all parties involved in actions are duly considered by THAT. Such

actions are God taking actions through people for people.

Namaskaras........Pratap Bhatt

 

--------------------------

 

PRIOR POSTING

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

As our scriptures says - if we believe that we are the Atma (Soul,

Spirit, Individual Consciousness), and if we also believe that human

life is the rarest form of birth (1 of 8.4 million species in this

Universe), and that only in this human form of life, one can attain

freedom from all bondages, one can realize their true nature, one

can attain salvation, one can realize eternal bliss, one can develop

love of God… etc., then common sense says that what Swamiji says is

without any doubt to be accepted - i.e. we have no right to stop

the evolution of a Soul, by creating roadblocks in it's evolution

cycle. This roadblock that we place on another souls' progress, to

not allow it an opportunity for salvation, will definitely have it's

consequences and is a grave sin. Most of the times, we sin due to

desire for our own happiness, self protection, comforts, betterment,

selfish reasons, and if we look at it from that perspective, also

the reason for abortions are also mostly for the same reasons, for a

little convenience and happiness, we are destroying another life,

and not allowing it to be born as a human, a soul that could have

realized the Self / God, and attain salvation etc.

 

Swamiji has said it is briefly addressed in Gita, under demoniac

tendencies. Gita 16:9 " Prabhavantyu grakarmaanah kshayaaya

jagatohitaah. " " Not believing in the eternal soul, the demoniac

natured appear as enemies of the world, for its destruction. " Gita

16:9

Unknowingly we destroy and kill helpless lives, and are hoping the

we will be benefited. How can we be benefited? How can we attain

salvation?

" Jaan-jaanker mook, asamarth jivon ki hatyaa karte ho aur caahete ho

ki hamaaraa bhallaa ho jaaye; kaise ho jaayegaa? kalyaan kaise ho

jaayegaa ?

 

For their selfish motives, such demoniac people indulge in violence,

murder and usurpation etc., without thinking of the pain, which they

inflict upon others.

" Dharmasarvasva suno, aur sunker dhaaran kar lo. Jo aacharan apnese

pratikool ho, usko dusero ke prati mat karo. "

 

Looking at a broader more Universal perspective, who truly takes

care of the 8.4 millions species? Do we? What arrogance to think

that we alone have the right and the burden of responsibility for

that conceived fetus? In many countries, one has to wait for years

and pay a huge amount, to adopt a child. Our ego and selfishness is

causing us to not give this opportunity to another soul and to

instead sin.

 

Not only that, many women who visited Swamiji after having undergone

several abortions, found their bodies to be significantly weakened,

undergoing several irreversible health problems. (I am truly

unaware of the medical and health implications, as this is based

only on experiences / problems that women shared with Swamiji).

 

After listening to Swamiji / reading his thoughts from books for a

number of years, after listening to the way He responded to question

and answers, there was never a question that he could not answer to

one's satisfaction. He had thought about everything he shared,

deeply for a long time, before he even uttered a word or stated

something firmly. In my opinion, Swamiji and all the major

religions of the world that believe in pro-life cannot be wrong!

 

Hope this helps.

Meera Das

Ram Ram

-------------------------------

Sanity and Sanctity of Birth-Control and Abortion

 

Many religions are committed to the propaganda of the idea of anti-

abortion and anti-birth-control strongly even in the so-called

advanced societies such as West. I strongly advocate that this is an

extremely lopsided vision from both social as well as natural

persepctives. By the way, spirituality has nothing to do with it!

 

We hear a lot like " birth is God's Grace and hence we should not

intefere; any such intereference is the greed, selfishness and

arrogance of humans against God's Grace " . I agree with it completely

ONLY IF it is also appreciated in tandem that " death is also God's

Grace and hence we should not interfere with that as well " . Death is

part of the creation as much as the birth. Is it OK to exercise our

ego to interfere with THAT when we are trying all we could do to

avoid/postpone the death? Isn't it the same greed and arrogance in

action in this case as well? Are we not disgracing ourselves by not

believing God's will in our death??

 

My suggestion to the birth-promoters is, " do not take a single pill

to interfere with God's will in the deseases, aging as well as in

death. Then, you are entitled to claim that one should not

interefere with God's will. " Taking all medicinal help to promote

our survival rate and life span on one hand and rejecting the same

for birth control on the other hand is hypocracy. Such attitude is

utterly (1) anti-nature resulting in lopsided population growth of

one single species on this earth; and (2) anti-society resulting in

undue stress of life demands overwhelming the resources. As far as

death control is excercised, one should allow the birth control to

balance the act in any soceity. That is social sanity and that is

natural sanctity.

 

Again, promoting one's material life on this earth is not at all the

agenda of Bhagavad Gita. The agenda is to cleanse the life we have

already taken … to learn how to live it well and how to leave it as

well. That does not remove any of our social responsibilities and

natural obligations. One can get liberated from the social

responsibilities by accepting the nature – birth and death alike. On

the other hand, one cannot get liberated from the natural

obligations till one lives.

 

Also, abusing the spiritual texts for social promotion is incorrect

and can lead to become frantically religious and religiously

fanatic. Bhagavaan Vyaasa advocates to never preach spirituality to

one who cannot appreciate it for one with half-baked knowledge will

lead to natural catastrophies such as population explosion which

eventually culminates in social catastrophies such as wars.

 

Na buddhibhedam janayet agnyaanaam karmasanginaam |

Joshayet sarva karmaani vidvaanyuktassamaacharan ||

 

For social issues such as abortion one should adapt common sense and

social awareness that reflects the circumstantial reality. If the

woman is forced to bear a feutus against her will, she has all the

rights to terminate the same. I request the same preachers to catch

hold of the male beasts that cause such distress in the fisrt place

and terminate them instead. Nobody has any right to interfere in

this matter when one cannot share the burden of the socio-economical

implications let alone the physio-psychological distress imposed

upon the victim. Why should an innocent woman suffer because of a

beastly male? Society should be The Bhima who pulls out the heart of

such beasts enroute. Incidentally, he does not need Krishna's

intervention because Krishna's approval is inherent in all his

actions.

 

Respects.

 

Naga Narayana

------------------------------

Dear Sir ,

 

You mentioned the shloka:

" Yat paapam brahmahattyaa dvigunam garbhapaatane; Praayashchitam ne

tasyaasti tatsyaasyaago vidhiyate " (Parasharsmriti 4:20).

 

Please let me know if you know any more details about this Shloka.

 

I am planning to put up boards with slogan in the villages with this

verse picture of Lord Krishna and Radha and duly translated thus :

 

BRUNE HATYA JO KARE HOGA MAHAAPAP

VIDHATA KA USSKO LAGEGA BHANKAR SHRAAP.

 

Any idea of better slogan? or any other thoughts on this?

 

Prem Khullar

-------------------------------

 

PRIOR POSTING

Hare Krishna

 

Answer to Question 1

 

Prashantji, I am pasting the answer of your question from Swamiji's

book " Sadhan-Sudha-Sindhu " page 960.

 

Q. If it becomes compulsory for woman to abort the baby due to an

infection, then what should she do?

 

A. She will definitely incur the sin of abortion. For protecting

woman people abort the baby but this should not be done. What has to

happen will indeed happen. If the woman has to die then even after

abortion she will die. If she is destined to live longer then she

will not die even if she chooses not to abort. Whatever may be the

cause of death, it will only arrive when the time is up. So abortion

should never be done.

 

Q. Should abortion be carried out in case an unmarried woman becomes

pregnant?

 

A. That boy and girl should marry who had pre-marital sex. If the

marriage is not possible then also abortion should not be done. The

girl should nurture that child and give him/her to an orphanage or

give it to someone who wants to adopt a child.

 

If a woman is raped then the rapist will incur terrible sin. If the

woman has derived pleasure from that then she will also incur sin.

All sins emanate from sensual desire. So the amount of sin will be

in direct proportion with the pleasure derived by that woman. If the

woman did not take any pleasure then she will not incur sin.

 

If an unmarried woman is pregnant then her parents will also incur

sin for their carelessness. It is a must for parents that they take

utmost care of their daughter and not give her excessive

independence.

 

Q. If society comes to know about it then she will become infamous

and no one will marry her?

 

A. After committing sin one has to bear defamation. Abortion,

suicide and running from home. In comparison to these three sins,

it's better to bear the defamation. If no one is willing to marry

her then she should reside in her father's house and spend her life

in worshipping God. This will be penance for her which will destroy

her sins.

 

Q. If a married woman is raped and she becomes pregnant then what

should be done?

 

A. It is better for her to be quiet. If husband comes to know about

it then he should also remain quiet. The couple's slience is best

for them. In reality, one should always be attentive from the

beginning so that such kind of situations do not arise. My

suggestion is not for abortion because it is an ultimate sin

(MahaPaap).

 

Answer to Question 2

 

Shri Khullarji, you are indeed doing great social service by

rescuing women from committing sins like abortion etc. This society

needs people like you.

 

Gita doesn't specifically mention about abortion. It strikes the

root of sin i.e. desire and God has spoken at length on it. Read

Gita (3-36, 37 and 16-21, 23, 24)

 

Premji, Gitapress has published 2 books.

 

Matrishakti Ka Ghor Apman (Code 420)

Desh Ki Vartaman Dash Aur Uska Parinam (Code 617)

Check the details at www.gitapress.org. You can use these 2 books

for your purpose.

 

These 2 books are also included in a 1000 page book Sadhan-Sudha-

Sindhu (Code 465). It is a compilation of more than 40 books of

Swamiji's teachings.

 

Thanks,

 

Hare Krishna

Varun P. Paprunia

-------------------------------

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

From Gita Talk Moderator:

 

" Sadhan, Sudha, Sindhu " in Hindi by Swami Ramsukhdasji, can be

viewed online for free at:

 

http://www.swamiramsukhdasji.org/swamijibooks/pustak/pustak1/html/sad

hansudhasindhu/main.html

Ram Ram

 

-------------------------------

:Shree Hari:

Ram Ram

 

26th September, 2008, Friday

Ashwin Krishna Dvaadashi, Vikram Samvat 2065, Shukravar

 

" Mana jaane sab baat, jaan boojh avaguna kare

kyon chaahat kusalaat, ker deepak koonye pade. "

 

At present times such terrible and fearsome sins are taking place,

that simply by listening, one's hair stands on ends, eyes become

filled with tears, and heart is deeply moved ! Ram Ram Ram, what

terrible unjustice, what fearsome sins are taking place, but your

attention is not going there at all ! Human body is said to be the

rarest of all all forms of life -

" Durlabho maanushyo deho dehinaam shunabhangurah " (Srimad Bhagavat

11:2:29)

" Labdhvaa sudurlabhmidam bahusambhvaante,

maanushyamarthdamnityampeeh dheerah " (Srimad Bhagavat 11:9:29)

" bade bhaag maanushya tanu paava. Sur durlabh sab granthnhi

gaava. " (Manas 7:43:7)

 

Such a rare human body, is being destroyed at the very beginning.

It is being cut up along with the jeev, and this is such a great

offense, it is such injustice, it is a terrible sin! My mind feels

immense pain, it is feeling great distress, but what to do! The

human body by which one can realize God, to not allow that human

body to even be born, and to destroy it, it is the ultimate sin !

To not allow some soul the opportunity to receive a human body, to

not allow that human body to even be born, to take medication from

the beginning and destroy it, through abortion or any other means.

One has stooped so low - not only to think about going to hell

themselves, but at the same time not even allowing another soul the

opportunity for upliftment, for benediction ! Now what is one to

do? Who to share this with? And who will listen to my point? Is

there no one listening ?

 

For ascetics it has been written in the scriptures to not travel

much during " Chaturmaas " (four months in a year during the rains).

Because during these month, due to the rains, every seed grows into

a sappling, which later grows into a tree. By extensive traveling,

walking, these seedlings come under the feet and are destroyed.

Therefore during this four month period, the ascetics do not walk

and roam around much, so that unknowingly no violence is done to any

life form. In Bhagavat it has been said, that if you wish to gain

victory over violence, then reduce the movement of the body -

" hinsaa kaayaadhyaneehayaa. " (Bhagavat 7:15:23). When there is

so much thought put into non-violence around immovable things, then

what to speak on the subject of movable beings? But nowadays, the

best of all movable life forms, better than even the devatas, the

human body, is being contemplated for destruction, what a state of

affairs we are in ! (to be continued)

 

From " Saadhan, Sudhaa, Sindhu " pg 946 in Hindi by Swami Ramsukhdasji

 

For full online discourses in Hindi, please visit Swami

Ramsukhdasji's website. http://www.swamiramsukhdasji.org

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Dear Sadhakas, This passage has moved me deeply. One should still

think about the fact that abortion is wrong. Firstly when a woman or

a man, yes a man can be raped by a woman for his seed. If raped, the

fact is the baby formed is not at fault. One does not have the right

to kill a child just because of that fact.

 

QUESTION 1: What would be such a case when rape occurs and the

child is aborted?

your comments please. Prashanth

---------------------

Dear Sir I read the SADAK dt 26 september 2008 regularly . I read

the following verse in your letter dated 27/09/08.

QUESTION 2: In the Paaraashersmriti - " Yat paapam brahmahattyaa

dvigunam garbhapaatane; Praayashchitam ne tasyaasti tatsyaasyaago

vidhiyate " Can you correctly guide me as to where do I find this

writing below, also does Gita make any reference to this? I wish to

quote it in my meetings in the villages against the female feticide.

(aborting female fetus)

thanks, Kindly do clarify and oblige,

prem khullar

-------------------------------

ADDITIONAL QUERY:

 

Do any of you have any more details on this shloka from Paaraasher

Smriti - " Yat paapam brahmahattyaa dvigunam garbhapaatane;

Praayashchitam ne tasyaasti tatsyaasyaago vidhiyate " . Kindly let me

know any other scriptures where abortion is mentioned as sinful.

Gita shloka does not clearly point to abortion per se. The source

is important, therefore do provide it, along with the quote /

shloka.

 

I am in process of creating slogans for big display boards for

villages and cities of Haryana where female feticide is spreading

like wild fire. Please suggest good slogan ! Please help

immediately.

Sincerely - Prem Khullar.

---------------------------

 

NEW POSTING

 

My dandavats to all in this forum...

MY heart breaks when I read the post of Prem Kullar. It is so

terrible that the east has taken up the course of following

activities of the west. I have lived in america my entire life, and

although perhaps I am " privileged " in the sense that I own propety,

car, etc.....I am extremely aware that there is no culture here in

America. No deep rooted traditions, no religious coloring of any

particular faith, and no strong bonds in communities. What little I

could offer in this discussion, is simply WHY? WHY? WHY FOLLOW THE

WEST? Though Sri Krsna's love is everywhere, though daily I

encounter beautiful people with loving hearts, they are suffering so

much in this country. The stress of city life is tremendous.....but

in the country there is no money to be made....(I have done both).

THIS COUNTRY IS DOOMED.....there is very little time left for it due

to its atrocious treatment of the cow, due to abortions, and due to

its policies of usurping and controlling resources of other

nations. WHY, WHY, WHY FOLLOW THE WEST? From the mouth of one

who has lived here my entire life, WAKE UP. I have visited India

twice, both times became completely overwhelmed with love for the

Supreme, to a degree that I am unable to express.....will India give

up all it's accumulated piety to become a hellish pit of

impersonalism and selfishness as the west? I pray not. Again, my

heart aches, what can I say, except all glories to your efforts,

Prem....to stop murder. To open the eyes of those who are blind....

 

In the words of Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta in his purport to bhagavad

Gita, " Those who commit such abominable acts will never see the

light of day again. "

So, the chain of karma will continue.....those killing the fetus

will themselves have to take birth in a womb and be aborted, time

and time again, to pay the price.

 

respectfully,

Mahalaksmi Dasi

------------------------------

Raam ! Raam !! Raam!!!

 

Some slogans for Mr Prem Khullar

 

1. Dont kill me in the womb itself - O mother ! O father ! I

will come with my own fate supporting me in this world !!!

 

2. Efforts of increasing agricultural production and controlling

births is like efforts of increasing milk in mother's breasts and

then not allowing conception !!!

 

3. Oh Mom ! Dear Mom !!! Why I should get killed when you enjoyed ?

 

4. O Father ! O Mother !! Throw me in a dust bin after giving birth!

But don't kill me when i am so helpless !!

 

5. Please! Please save me O parents ! I have capacity to bring

pleasures for you!

 

6. What is my fault? What my fault?? If you don't save me, who

will?

 

7. Even the wildest and the cruelest of animals do not kill their

own children!

 

With sincere Pranaams to all genuine Sadhaks! Shame on those who

advocate such ghastly acts ! SHAME !! SHAME !!!

 

Beenani S.

 

------------------------------

Hari Om

 

Let me now address Khullarji's query.

 

Swamiji used to put up a bill board outside His temporary abode

every where that - Those who have done sin of abortion may please

not bring " bhiksha " for me ! " Bhiksha " - alm of food. Swamiji would

eat food brought by 5 houses every day.

 

In Manusmriti - 4/208 , it is stated that

 

BHROONAN GHAVEKSHITAM CHAIV SANSPRISHTAM CHAAPYUDAKYAYA !

PATATRINA VALEEDHAM CHA SHUNA SANSPRISHTAMEVA CHA !!

 

One should not eat food (1) touched by female in periods (2)

touched by a dog (3) partially eaten by a bird (4) seen by (what to

say " touched by " ) one who ever indulged in abortion !

 

Verse referred by Khullarji is in Parashar Smriti 4/20.

 

YATPAPAM BRAHMA HATYAYA DVIGUNAM GARBHPATNE !

PRAYASHCHITAM NA TASYAATI TASYATYAAGO VIDHIYATE

 

In Brahma Vaivat Purana ( Prakrati Khand, Chapter 2) it is stated

that in the beginning of creation, the basic prakrati ( Shri Radha)

threw her fetus into waters. God immediately cursed her - From now

onwards you will never have a child. Not only that, by your part

whatever " divya " females will get created they also shall be without

a child. Thereafter from the tongue of Basic Nature (Shri Radha) -

Goddess Saraswati incarnated. Later on that Basic Nature got split

into 2 parts. From Left body - Goddess Laxmi incarnated. From Right

body " Radha " incarnated. God also became two. From half left body He

became " Chaturbhuj Vishnu " (Four armed Vishnu) and from right part

He became two armed " Krishna " ! Both Laxmi and Saraswati were

childless. Then from the pours of Krishna countless " Gopas "

incarnated. From pours of Shri Radha countless " Gopis " manifested.

My understanding is that Gopis were infertile, childless !

 

In " Vriddha Suryarun Karma Vipaak " Scripture it is stated:

 

PURVE JANUSHI YA NAARI GARBHA GHAAT KARI HYABHOOT!

GARBHAPAATEN DUKHARTA SAATRA JANMANI JAAYATE !! (477/1)

 

A Lady who had aborted in past lives, suffers in this life on

account of being childless!

 

VANDHYEYA YA MAHABHAAG PRICHHATI SWAM PRAYOJANAM!

GARBHAPAATRATA PURVE JANUSHYATRA PHALAM TVIDAM !!

 

If some Lady asks why she is issueless, infertile in this life?

Answer is due to abortion in the past life. ( 659/1; 856/1; 921/1;

1857/1)

 

GARBHAPATAN PAPADHYA BABHOOV PRAGBHAVEANDAJ !

SAATREVA TEN PAAPEN GARBHESTHERYA NA VINDATI !!

 

O Arun ! One who aborts in prior life, can not bear child in present

life ! ( 1187/1)

 

As simple as that !

 

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

-----------------------------

Woman Power!

by TA Ramesh

 

Without Shakti, Siva cannot do any duty in all the worlds;

Without power, no matter can be active in the Universe;

Without soul, human body cannot survive in the world!

 

Without mother, children cannot grow hale and healthy;

Without wife, husband cannot maintain family and children;

Without woman, man cannot love and live in the world!

 

Beauty, intelligence and love are the aspects of personality

That helps women stand unique in the world;

But, so emotional by nature that it's impossible

For a woman to keep secrets in her heart;

And so, women let the cat out of the bag easily!

 

Hence women show the skeleton kept in the cup-board

Long to anyone who moves them most!

That's why taboos and restrictions imposed on women

Are perhaps rigorous and heartless in many religions,

That are, now, slowly removed by social reforms

By great movement leaders in the modern world.

 

Literature is also full of the Power of Women

As the Main Theme everywhere in the world!

Without the beautiful woman, Helen at the center of the story,

How can Homer's Iliad ever exist in the world?

Without the virtuous woman, Sita in Valmiki's Great Epic,

Ramayana can ever be read so long?

 

Thousands of years, by law and religion,

Women are kept as under-dogs to men;

Women are not just the Weaker Vessels,

Without whose encouraging support

Vessels of Tears won't survive in the world;

Without the knowledge, intelligence and support

Of Woman Power, no family

Can sustain, develop and survive!

 

with regards

Dilip Ravindran

----------------------------

 

PRIOR POSTING

Namaste,

 

Manu's verse ' yatra naaryastu pUjyante ramante tatra devatAh' ( the

gods rejoice/ are happy, where the woman is worshipped) is, I feel,

a powerful message to inculcate respect for women at whichever stage

she may be.

 

Shubhamastu

Anuradha Choudry

------------------------------

-Shree Hari_

 

Clarification: I was reflecting on a place where I once lived long

ago, I was not in poverty but I saw much of it. I would never ever

imply that one should hold a dagger, as it were, at peoples throat,

and demand they follow, rules on their personal behavior , it is the

opposite to what I am. Options can be shown to them, not killing.

 

Many people revert to medicines of some sort or another, for various

conditions, and it often means the death of some organism or other.

In reality many are based on herbs, and a vegetable origin.

In passing my preference is homeopathy.

 

If I get or any person gets bitten by a snake around here, then to

the hospital quick smart, for an antidote, not to is death. (why die

if one can prevent it?)

 

Driven by compassion one would like to see people live life in

comfort and happiness, why not?

 

Yes Divine Feminine 'Shakti', (she is universal), has been suppressed

for thousands of years, and the world has become unbalanced, she has

to sit with her consort once more.

 

My thoughts are exhausted on the subject, I will just read on.

 

With Respect and Divine Love,

 

Mike Keenor

--------------------------------

 

Raam Raam Raam

 

Great Suggestion is that either you dont make efforts to remain

healthy, to cure any illnesses OR we are justified in stopping new

births into this world. Either you control death or we shall control

birth. As simple as that. Why you are taking medicines to cure

fever ? If you are taking medicines, then we shall abort the child.

What shall the child do in this planet? Oh No ! Kill him. Modern

societies cant tolerate this non sense of humans coming on this

planet so fast. Where is the space ? Where is housing for them ? Who

will arrange for their food, water, upkeep, maintenance? How costly

are the living now a days ? We want freedom ! We have come on this

planet, and after applying our minds we have concluded that in

modern societies such non sensical obstacles to sensual pleasures is

unwarranted ! Kill them . Stop them from coming to this world. Now

that we have come into this planet, where is the need for any other?

It is these new arrivals that has made this world so bad, and

unlivable. No , Sorry ! We cant let them enter. Kill the fetus.

Simply kill ! All problems are only because of that only ! Kill the

fetus in the womb itself. Suck the life out of it. Let us enjoy. We

never wanted the child. We just wanted to enjoy the human life. From

where this conception hascome ? Oh , dont worry kill the fetus ! We

are modern, we are not orthodox people. If we dont stop human beings

from coming to this world, then what shall be the difference between

us and animals. Animals mate only when there is season for mating.

They have to exercise restraints and disciplines- not the human

beings. Animals are animals only because they mate only when there

is a season. We are not animals. We are human beings. We shall mate

anytime we want - morning evening, day, night, January, April, June

any time, any month. What a fun ! What an obstacle to this fun is

this conception. That is spoil sport. Kill the fetus. After all we

are privileged, we are intelligent. We can invent devices to kill

them anytime. Science is pretty advanced. Vacuum cleaners. Suck the

life out of that creature. What the fetus thought we are so stupid.

Gone are those old concepts of father, mother, protector ! Non

sense. We have mind, intellect, beautiful body. This conception

is undesirable - a simple nuisance! We have thought over it, all

problems are only because of increase in population. From where the

additional income will come? From where we shall feed the children ?

No ! Not Possible!! Our leaders also say so. Entire economy is in

mess only because of this over population. Enjoy mating, but kill

fetus. Where is the need for child here ? Shall we eat ourselves or

get entangled in arranging food for them ? Are we so stupids ? Come

On ! Either you control death or we shall abort !!! We are modern

humans. Kill the fetus. No arguments. Kill ! If you want to live

peacefully - murder ! Or Control Death !

 

Raam Raam Raam !

 

Beenani S

 

------------------------------

Dear Vipra Bandhavaha, evam itare suhridaha,

We must avoid debates and discussion on which modern educated and so

called Western feminist women will have strong view. It is a pity

that they could destroy what they cannot create. See the ten per

cent of married couples who long and yearn for children and are not

blessed so. Think deeply, do not impose your views on others.

Vriddha Divakarosmi Bhoh.

 

------------------------------

Jai Hanuman

 

People often say if the population is not controlled there will be

shortage of eatables on the planet. This poverty , mal nutrition are

only because of population growth. Hence population control is the

answer for all these menaces confronting humanity. Wrong are they!!

Patently wrong ! Absolutely wrong !

 

Taat Shree ( Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj) said that kind of actions

which so called intelligentia advocate to support population

control, kind of sins which are increasingly getting legalised -

what to say eatables and food grains , one will not even get water

as a result .

 

Oh What a pity Jee ! A human being wants to live comfortably and in

order to do that, he wishes/wants to put obstacles in another human

being, in it's being born ! Is that humanity ? That is how you feel

one can bring happiness, order, harmony, pleasure in human life?

Such arguments are in reality a garbage advanced by power hungry

stupid politians to justify mis-management of existing resources and

mislead. Economics !! Sheer Nonsense !

 

Indeed the intellect can get into the spell of what is stated in BG

18:32. This is Kaliyuga Jee. This is how at the last phase of time

cycle, the humans can become. It will worsen in times to come. Ever

heard the term " cannibalism " ? Humans are heading towards the same.

 

Get liberated Jee, Realise Paramatma, O Dear Sadhaks Jee, as fast

as you can. Future will unfold else the circumstances and scenes

which you will never want to see again. Who have been left?. Those

who from Satyuga, to Treta to Dwapar till today have always set

example of BG 18:32. Most of us are in that zone only. Hurry up

Please Jee!

 

See how do they perceive - Hell with your coming on this planet, we

have come first and now we shall not allow you to come ! We will

enjoy the physical relationship, privilege, without letting you

come in Jee. Don't you know who we are Jee? Humans , Humans ! We

are humans !

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

--------------------------

------------------------------

 

Hari Om

 

I am in perfect agreement with Mahalaxmi Dasi and Mike Keenor. Of

course Mira Dass was immaculate as usual, completely relevant and

absolutely correct. Frankly, I can't say so for most of the views of

Mr Naga Narayana. If he wants as a sadhak to know as to why I feel

so , we can discuss briefly through short notes the reasons thereof.

 

Mike- you are right in most of your observations regarding birth

control pills also. That is not bad. But good is copulation timing

and male condoms. Better is " control " over the very desire and the

Best is mating only for giving birth ! ONLY WITH THAT PURPOSE !!

 

Reply of B Sathyanarainji is 100 percent right. No doubt about

that ! Mahalaxmi Dasi's response is one of the best write ups on the

subject , I have ever read.

 

Certainly Sobhanaji. Shame on the males can only be and rightfully

be attributed by females who are 1000 times more able, better and

powerful than males. All powers arise from female - Goddess

Shakti . All glories and happiness in this world arises out of

Goddess Laxmi- again a female. Mother Nature is a female.. You are

entitled to say so ! Sanatan Dharma is in favour of your entitlement

to do so ! My compliments as a sadhak .

 

Operations of males/females so that there is no conception is

extremely bad act. You get disentitled to perform many rituals and

you don't return to God and atmosphoric airs, what was received by

you - for the reasons best known to you only.

 

I have heard this from elders (don't remember if I read somewhere)

that Goddess Mahalaxmi had aborted a child in some human life. Even

after having Lord Naraina (Lord Vishnu) as her husband, she could

never become mother again. As simple as that !!

 

How a man is a man, if he has no powers to become father, has no

reproductive capacity ? Just How? How a woman is a woman if she has

no powers to become mother, has no reproductive capacity ? Just how?

 

But Mike , I really could not understand any relevance of your

reference of over population at the near by place. Really ! If you

mean to say that over population is not desirable and must be

controlled by any one , then I beg to differ with you. We can have a

deliberation on this. Divine deliberation ! Real Satsanga !! Example

setting form of satsanga !

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

----------------------------

 

I agree with you Shobhnaji, thousand percent. Shame on us to keep

treating the women folk with deep rooted disrespect.

 

To others, this is a social issue. And hence does not befit this

forum. Therefore, I desist to respond to the other queries

raised ... Mahabharata and Bhagavadgita are as useful to the society

as to a spiritual aspirant. But … that needs a different forum.

Therefore, let me be brief ...

 

To Dasiji, Vyaasji, Mike and others who have commented on the

feutus's freedom to take life … my question is regarding the freedom

of the person living. Our poor brothern in India has paid heavily on

the rape, violation and enslavement for more than a millenium thanks

to the wrongly preached spiritual values in social life. Again, the

problem is not in the great spiritual values … but, in the

preaching. Bhagavan Vyaasa warns sternly … Na buddhidhedam janayet …

never preach these values … they are only for seekers. Because,

those who do not understand the depth of concepts such as Ahimsa

(non-violence) and Shaanti (peace) would let their natural cowardice

reign their lives. It is the responsibility of a saint to

acknowledge that the world cannot be saintly. Whoever tried to

spread sainthood in the history has achieved nothing but social

fragmentation … sainthood never appeared in humanity so far.

Therefore, if at all spirituality helps, it should let the humans be

just humans first from social perspective.

 

Dasiji feels that the death is not a Godly act while birth is a

Godly act. If their exists a devil against the God, I can only pity

such appreciation of God. Good and bad are our creation in our

illusions. Just because we love birth and hate death, we cannot

project the same ignorance on God. Birth and death are both God's

gifts to us. We should treat both the same way with absolute

respect. If we cannot, at least we should not wield hypocracy to

suit our beliefs.

 

God is not their to protect anybody but has provided everything to

do so oneself. Krishna never fights ... Arjuna has to. If God " had

to " protect, he would have protected the violation of freedom of a

woman in the first place. One who suffers has all the right to

respond to one's own suffering in one's own way. Spirituality cannot

trespass its compassion to preach either way. Such judgment will be

as lopsided as of the Bramhin who tried to interfere with an eagle's

attempt to eat its food, a snake.

 

Vyasji has quoted Karna … the goodness captive in the bad … nothing

but a slave to the bad … committed to serve the bad till death. What

is the use of such goodness? In fact, more harmful to the society!

 

Again, the society should be The Bhima who pulls out the heart of

the beastly violaters enroute. Incidentally, he does not need

Krishna's intervention because Krishna's approval is inherent in all

his actions.

 

Respects.

 

Naga Narayana

 

---------------------------

Namaste

 

DAADU DUNIYA BAAWARI , FIKAR KARE GELI !

ROTI DESI RAMJEE, DOPAARA PELI !!

 

Said Sage Daaduji

 

Mad has gone this world ! Absolutely crazy. It is worrying

unnecessarily out of stupidity. God will provide meals to you before

noon time.

 

Mr Naga Narayana - Worry not ! There is one creator, preserver and

destroyer , called, Paramatma ( Ever heard this name?) who will take

care through Mother Nature about birth, death, fame, illfame,

happiness and sorrow.

 

Said Sage Vashishtha to Bharatji

 

AHO BHARAT BHAAVI PRABAL, BILAKH KAHAT MUNIRAAJ !

HAANI LAABH JEEVAN MARAN, JAS APJAS VIDHI HAATH !!

 

O Bharat ! Destiny is very powerful. Profit, Loss, Death, Birth,

Fame and Ill fame are controlled by Destiny only.

 

Stop giving reasons. Simply dont disturb the Laws of Nature . You

have no rights to do that. What if our fathers also thought in the

similar manner? How we would have been able to become humans then?

Dont we run to a doctor if urine stops ? We are that weak ! Why

should we take responsibility of Creator on our weak shoulders?

Stupidity is that- Isnt it ?

 

HAM EK KHILONE HAIN, EK AISE KHILAADI KE !

JISKO ABHI SADIYON TAK YEH KHEL RACHAANA HAI !!

 

We are toys in the hands of that player, who is yet to continue this

world for centuries and centuries.

 

Chesta Vinod

-----------------------------

Priya Sadhaks

 

Sobhanaji has indeed expressed herself naturally and therefore

powerfully. But only in writing " Shame on you all " ! On balance

there was nothing .

 

Madam ! None is bad here!! Change the vision and you shall start

seeing the ultimate good here ! Try it !

 

Why inflict any shame on any one?

 

At the lotus feet of all of you and of Paramatma

 

MM Purohit

 

 

===============================================================

 

PRIOR POSTING

My dandavats to all in this forum....

 

In regard to the concept of taking pills to prolong health being

" hypocritical " if one is against pills to stop birth......I am

shocked that one with knowledge would dare equate the two concepts.

Doesn't the Supreme Lord appear as Dhanvantari, to give knowledge of

herbs to help human beings? Where is there any reference where the

Supreme Lord would say, " yes, abort this child " ? Anyone can say

anything, but one must analyze according to scripture, if he or she

is to truly benefit the cause of humanity.

Also, I believe it is a myth that there is overpopulation. I

truly believe that mother Bhumi can expand her form, if needed, she

is alive....she is not dead matter. The problem today is

mismanagement of the resources. In the time of Prthu Maharaj,

another incarnation of the Lord mentioned in the Srimad Bhagavatm,

mother earth also withheld fruits and vegetables and grains, as there

was so little sacrifice in the human hearts taking place. On the

threat of Prthu Maharaj, she agreed to produce abundantly. Are

there those who think these stories are simply folk lore?

Again, anyone can say anything, but the laws of material nature

will act, regardless. If I say that the sun will rise in the west,

I can say it every day til I leave this world, but will it happen?

No, it will not. I cannot change the laws of nature. Killing is

sinful, attempting to prevent a soul from entering a womb using any

birth control is sinful, and reactions will come whether one

believes or not. This is the law of karma. Otherwise, if this were

not true, it would stand to reason that there is nothing wrong with

unlimited illicit sexual activity. Yes, just use birth control,

have abortions, enjoy your body all you choose...IS THERE ANYONE WHO

CAN SUPPORT THIS TYPE OF MENTALITY FROM A RELIGIOUS OR DEVOTION TO

GOD STAND-POINT? I don't believe it is possible.

Also, it may be true that the perpetrator of rape is a

rascal....but a woman cannot justify her act of murdering an unborn

child merely because a male chose to act sinfully. The two sins do

not balance each other out. Women must return to their role of

being protectors of society, of righteousness...with no " attitude "

of hatred toward the ignorance of males, otherwise the love and grace

of Laksmi will never again flow abundantly on this planet.

The " blame game " should not be for those of saintly character.

 

Respectfully submitted,

Mahalaksmmi Dasi

-------------------------------

-Shree Hari-

I found the comments by Naga Narayana and Meera Das absorbing, the

full spectrum as it were.

OK there was a program on TV here, that showed an abortion, not

simulated, the real thing, the apparatus used was a sort of vacuum

device the sucked the life from the womb.

As I watched this, I experienced something unusual, I had no

emotions, it was as if I were stone, no anger no horror, I was in the

presence of demonic evil, somehow my emotions retreated, my defenses

were up, sometimes evil can be so great it seems, that words and

reactions have no place.

What I saw, I never want to see again,.

Preventing conception, is not killing of life, there is timing of

copulation, condoms, barriers, and birth control pills; they do not

abort, I personally think that the birth control pill may have

dangers, as it interferes with normal bodily functions.

However if the pill prevents the resort to abortion, then so be it.

If a woman is raped, the fetus is not the intruder, the brute who

raped her is. Punish him by the full force of the law, not the fetus.

(I understand in some countries, it's almost impossible to be charged

with rape, and the victims can be punished, how terrible!)

 

I have personally witnessed, the stinking mire that over population,

poverty, animals and humans living in close proximity, the over

powering smell of camels, goats , and sewage, and what it does to

people.

 

So on the subject of abortion, I see strength in Meera Das point of

view, and on birth control, I think Naga Narayana, has sound

arguments.

 

With Respect and Divine Love.

 

Mike Keenor

------------------------------

What about the karma of the men who rape? All the views expressed

here do not take into account that women are human beings, have

feelings and have the right to perhaps cleanse themselves of the

sins committed by men. Abortion is the only way to cleanse such sin

committed by men, who are " protectors " and hide behind religious

views.

 

Shame on all of you.

Shobhna S. Kumar

-------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Hari Om

 

Under no circumstance, even if the circumstance is life

threatening - the sin of abortion should not be done.

Any happenning in our life is outcome of our own karma meted out by

God's laws through nature. Law of Karma is precise and accurate in

its operation.

 

Every incidence has kripa (benevolence) of God hidden in it. Every

adverse incident provides you an opportunity to get closer to God by

right conduct and right utilisation of given circumstance. The human

birth has not been given for petty comforts and worldly pleasures.

It is a challenging, sadhan ( striving for God Realisation) form of

life. The austerity resulting from given adverse circumstances is

God sent/willed as per our own prior deeds.One must take such God

sent austerities as an opportunity for spiritual advancement. One

must perceive the human life as a special form of life- not to enjoy

worldly pleasures but to happily do one's duty without caring for

one's right and another's duty. Job is already on hand, of giving

birth to the innocent child, the duty is already on hand. The

aggrieved should take it so, give birth to the child, and thereafter

she may handover the child to orphanage etc.

 

One must be " careful in " doing " , and happy in " happening "

(result) " . No circumstance can force you to commit new sins.

 

Sanatan Dharma Scriptures deal with every type of circumstance.

Similar circumstance was faced by Kunti also. Kunti was mother of

Karna conceived when she was unmarried through Sun. She gave birth

to the child and silently surrendered the child to the mother

nature. Karna went on to be a part of history forever. Karna earned

admiration of all , including from Lord Krishna. He was one of the

greatest philanthropist the Indian soil has ever produced. He

redefined the art of giving/donating/ renunciation. He was " tyaag

murti " . Karna was the eldest son of Kunti- elder than

Yuddhister/Bhim/Arjuna/Nakul/Sahdev.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

--------------------------

HELLO SIR,

Your own conscience is the best guide. follow it. In so doing see

that your action does not harm the other person. Follow the maxim "

do unto others what you expect from others " That's what the Mahatma

Gandhi said, " I look to my inner self for guidance when I am in

trouble " . So said Lord Buddha too.

Ramachander Homma

--------------------------

Dear Sadaks,

If a lady conceives, it is not her wish or effort. Many women even

after marriage do not concieve. Why? The child to be born is

predecided by the Karma of that soul. In certain cases the child

gets aborted naturally, which is no way connected with anybody or

Sin.

But to abort a child is wrong. The cause is abortion and the effect

is the lady who aborted the child, will have rebirth as lady who

will have no issues (children). This lady who aborted can even be a

tree in her next birth, where the tree does not yield fruits. The

rebirth depends on once Paapas (sins) and Puniyas (virtues).

Referance Garbopanashid.

B.Sathyanarayan

--------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

I resonate totally with the views expressed by Naga Narayanji on

this subject.

No action in itself is right or wrong without regard to

circumstances surrounding it.

An action such as abortion may be right in one set of circumstances

and wrong in another set of circumstances. In otherwords, actions

are not inherently right or wrong.

There are many examples in daily life where we can see this to be

true.

I think that right action comes to one who is steadfast on the path

of righteousness (dharma), and seeks all decisions from the Totality

of Being(THAT) and never as an individual! In such cases interest of

all parties involved in actions are duly considered by THAT. Such

actions are God taking actions through people for people.

Namaskaras........Pratap Bhatt

 

--------------------------

 

PRIOR POSTING

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

As our scriptures says - if we believe that we are the Atma (Soul,

Spirit, Individual Consciousness), and if we also believe that human

life is the rarest form of birth (1 of 8.4 million species in this

Universe), and that only in this human form of life, one can attain

freedom from all bondages, one can realize their true nature, one

can attain salvation, one can realize eternal bliss, one can develop

love of God… etc., then common sense says that what Swamiji says is

without any doubt to be accepted - i.e. we have no right to stop

the evolution of a Soul, by creating roadblocks in it's evolution

cycle. This roadblock that we place on another souls' progress, to

not allow it an opportunity for salvation, will definitely have it's

consequences and is a grave sin. Most of the times, we sin due to

desire for our own happiness, self protection, comforts, betterment,

selfish reasons, and if we look at it from that perspective, also

the reason for abortions are also mostly for the same reasons, for a

little convenience and happiness, we are destroying another life,

and not allowing it to be born as a human, a soul that could have

realized the Self / God, and attain salvation etc.

 

Swamiji has said it is briefly addressed in Gita, under demoniac

tendencies. Gita 16:9 " Prabhavantyu grakarmaanah kshayaaya

jagatohitaah. " " Not believing in the eternal soul, the demoniac

natured appear as enemies of the world, for its destruction. " Gita

16:9

Unknowingly we destroy and kill helpless lives, and are hoping the

we will be benefited. How can we be benefited? How can we attain

salvation?

" Jaan-jaanker mook, asamarth jivon ki hatyaa karte ho aur caahete ho

ki hamaaraa bhallaa ho jaaye; kaise ho jaayegaa? kalyaan kaise ho

jaayegaa ?

 

For their selfish motives, such demoniac people indulge in violence,

murder and usurpation etc., without thinking of the pain, which they

inflict upon others.

" Dharmasarvasva suno, aur sunker dhaaran kar lo. Jo aacharan apnese

pratikool ho, usko dusero ke prati mat karo. "

 

Looking at a broader more Universal perspective, who truly takes

care of the 8.4 millions species? Do we? What arrogance to think

that we alone have the right and the burden of responsibility for

that conceived fetus? In many countries, one has to wait for years

and pay a huge amount, to adopt a child. Our ego and selfishness is

causing us to not give this opportunity to another soul and to

instead sin.

 

Not only that, many women who visited Swamiji after having undergone

several abortions, found their bodies to be significantly weakened,

undergoing several irreversible health problems. (I am truly

unaware of the medical and health implications, as this is based

only on experiences / problems that women shared with Swamiji).

 

After listening to Swamiji / reading his thoughts from books for a

number of years, after listening to the way He responded to question

and answers, there was never a question that he could not answer to

one's satisfaction. He had thought about everything he shared,

deeply for a long time, before he even uttered a word or stated

something firmly. In my opinion, Swamiji and all the major

religions of the world that believe in pro-life cannot be wrong!

 

Hope this helps.

Meera Das

Ram Ram

-------------------------------

Sanity and Sanctity of Birth-Control and Abortion

 

Many religions are committed to the propaganda of the idea of anti-

abortion and anti-birth-control strongly even in the so-called

advanced societies such as West. I strongly advocate that this is an

extremely lopsided vision from both social as well as natural

persepctives. By the way, spirituality has nothing to do with it!

 

We hear a lot like " birth is God's Grace and hence we should not

intefere; any such intereference is the greed, selfishness and

arrogance of humans against God's Grace " . I agree with it completely

ONLY IF it is also appreciated in tandem that " death is also God's

Grace and hence we should not interfere with that as well " . Death is

part of the creation as much as the birth. Is it OK to exercise our

ego to interfere with THAT when we are trying all we could do to

avoid/postpone the death? Isn't it the same greed and arrogance in

action in this case as well? Are we not disgracing ourselves by not

believing God's will in our death??

 

My suggestion to the birth-promoters is, " do not take a single pill

to interfere with God's will in the deseases, aging as well as in

death. Then, you are entitled to claim that one should not

interefere with God's will. " Taking all medicinal help to promote

our survival rate and life span on one hand and rejecting the same

for birth control on the other hand is hypocracy. Such attitude is

utterly (1) anti-nature resulting in lopsided population growth of

one single species on this earth; and (2) anti-society resulting in

undue stress of life demands overwhelming the resources. As far as

death control is excercised, one should allow the birth control to

balance the act in any soceity. That is social sanity and that is

natural sanctity.

 

Again, promoting one's material life on this earth is not at all the

agenda of Bhagavad Gita. The agenda is to cleanse the life we have

already taken … to learn how to live it well and how to leave it as

well. That does not remove any of our social responsibilities and

natural obligations. One can get liberated from the social

responsibilities by accepting the nature – birth and death alike. On

the other hand, one cannot get liberated from the natural

obligations till one lives.

 

Also, abusing the spiritual texts for social promotion is incorrect

and can lead to become frantically religious and religiously

fanatic. Bhagavaan Vyaasa advocates to never preach spirituality to

one who cannot appreciate it for one with half-baked knowledge will

lead to natural catastrophies such as population explosion which

eventually culminates in social catastrophies such as wars.

 

Na buddhibhedam janayet agnyaanaam karmasanginaam |

Joshayet sarva karmaani vidvaanyuktassamaacharan ||

 

For social issues such as abortion one should adapt common sense and

social awareness that reflects the circumstantial reality. If the

woman is forced to bear a feutus against her will, she has all the

rights to terminate the same. I request the same preachers to catch

hold of the male beasts that cause such distress in the fisrt place

and terminate them instead. Nobody has any right to interfere in

this matter when one cannot share the burden of the socio-economical

implications let alone the physio-psychological distress imposed

upon the victim. Why should an innocent woman suffer because of a

beastly male? Society should be The Bhima who pulls out the heart of

such beasts enroute. Incidentally, he does not need Krishna's

intervention because Krishna's approval is inherent in all his

actions.

 

Respects.

 

Naga Narayana

------------------------------

Dear Sir ,

 

You mentioned the shloka:

" Yat paapam brahmahattyaa dvigunam garbhapaatane; Praayashchitam ne

tasyaasti tatsyaasyaago vidhiyate " (Parasharsmriti 4:20).

 

Please let me know if you know any more details about this Shloka.

 

I am planning to put up boards with slogan in the villages with this

verse picture of Lord Krishna and Radha and duly translated thus :

 

BRUNE HATYA JO KARE HOGA MAHAAPAP

VIDHATA KA USSKO LAGEGA BHANKAR SHRAAP.

 

Any idea of better slogan? or any other thoughts on this?

 

Prem Khullar

-------------------------------

 

PRIOR POSTING

Hare Krishna

 

Answer to Question 1

 

Prashantji, I am pasting the answer of your question from Swamiji's

book " Sadhan-Sudha-Sindhu " page 960.

 

Q. If it becomes compulsory for woman to abort the baby due to an

infection, then what should she do?

 

A. She will definitely incur the sin of abortion. For protecting

woman people abort the baby but this should not be done. What has to

happen will indeed happen. If the woman has to die then even after

abortion she will die. If she is destined to live longer then she

will not die even if she chooses not to abort. Whatever may be the

cause of death, it will only arrive when the time is up. So abortion

should never be done.

 

Q. Should abortion be carried out in case an unmarried woman becomes

pregnant?

 

A. That boy and girl should marry who had pre-marital sex. If the

marriage is not possible then also abortion should not be done. The

girl should nurture that child and give him/her to an orphanage or

give it to someone who wants to adopt a child.

 

If a woman is raped then the rapist will incur terrible sin. If the

woman has derived pleasure from that then she will also incur sin.

All sins emanate from sensual desire. So the amount of sin will be

in direct proportion with the pleasure derived by that woman. If the

woman did not take any pleasure then she will not incur sin.

 

If an unmarried woman is pregnant then her parents will also incur

sin for their carelessness. It is a must for parents that they take

utmost care of their daughter and not give her excessive

independence.

 

Q. If society comes to know about it then she will become infamous

and no one will marry her?

 

A. After committing sin one has to bear defamation. Abortion,

suicide and running from home. In comparison to these three sins,

it's better to bear the defamation. If no one is willing to marry

her then she should reside in her father's house and spend her life

in worshipping God. This will be penance for her which will destroy

her sins.

 

Q. If a married woman is raped and she becomes pregnant then what

should be done?

 

A. It is better for her to be quiet. If husband comes to know about

it then he should also remain quiet. The couple's slience is best

for them. In reality, one should always be attentive from the

beginning so that such kind of situations do not arise. My

suggestion is not for abortion because it is an ultimate sin

(MahaPaap).

 

Answer to Question 2

 

Shri Khullarji, you are indeed doing great social service by

rescuing women from committing sins like abortion etc. This society

needs people like you.

 

Gita doesn't specifically mention about abortion. It strikes the

root of sin i.e. desire and God has spoken at length on it. Read

Gita (3-36, 37 and 16-21, 23, 24)

 

Premji, Gitapress has published 2 books.

 

Matrishakti Ka Ghor Apman (Code 420)

Desh Ki Vartaman Dash Aur Uska Parinam (Code 617)

Check the details at www.gitapress.org. You can use these 2 books

for your purpose.

 

These 2 books are also included in a 1000 page book Sadhan-Sudha-

Sindhu (Code 465). It is a compilation of more than 40 books of

Swamiji's teachings.

 

Thanks,

 

Hare Krishna

Varun P. Paprunia

-------------------------------

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

From Gita Talk Moderator:

 

" Sadhan, Sudha, Sindhu " in Hindi by Swami Ramsukhdasji, can be

viewed online for free at:

 

http://www.swamiramsukhdasji.org/swamijibooks/pustak/pustak1/html/sad

hansudhasindhu/main.html

Ram Ram

 

-------------------------------

:Shree Hari:

Ram Ram

 

26th September, 2008, Friday

Ashwin Krishna Dvaadashi, Vikram Samvat 2065, Shukravar

 

" Mana jaane sab baat, jaan boojh avaguna kare

kyon chaahat kusalaat, ker deepak koonye pade. "

 

At present times such terrible and fearsome sins are taking place,

that simply by listening, one's hair stands on ends, eyes become

filled with tears, and heart is deeply moved ! Ram Ram Ram, what

terrible unjustice, what fearsome sins are taking place, but your

attention is not going there at all ! Human body is said to be the

rarest of all all forms of life -

" Durlabho maanushyo deho dehinaam shunabhangurah " (Srimad Bhagavat

11:2:29)

" Labdhvaa sudurlabhmidam bahusambhvaante,

maanushyamarthdamnityampeeh dheerah " (Srimad Bhagavat 11:9:29)

" bade bhaag maanushya tanu paava. Sur durlabh sab granthnhi

gaava. " (Manas 7:43:7)

 

Such a rare human body, is being destroyed at the very beginning.

It is being cut up along with the jeev, and this is such a great

offense, it is such injustice, it is a terrible sin! My mind feels

immense pain, it is feeling great distress, but what to do! The

human body by which one can realize God, to not allow that human

body to even be born, and to destroy it, it is the ultimate sin !

To not allow some soul the opportunity to receive a human body, to

not allow that human body to even be born, to take medication from

the beginning and destroy it, through abortion or any other means.

One has stooped so low - not only to think about going to hell

themselves, but at the same time not even allowing another soul the

opportunity for upliftment, for benediction ! Now what is one to

do? Who to share this with? And who will listen to my point? Is

there no one listening ?

 

For ascetics it has been written in the scriptures to not travel

much during " Chaturmaas " (four months in a year during the rains).

Because during these month, due to the rains, every seed grows into

a sappling, which later grows into a tree. By extensive traveling,

walking, these seedlings come under the feet and are destroyed.

Therefore during this four month period, the ascetics do not walk

and roam around much, so that unknowingly no violence is done to any

life form. In Bhagavat it has been said, that if you wish to gain

victory over violence, then reduce the movement of the body -

" hinsaa kaayaadhyaneehayaa. " (Bhagavat 7:15:23). When there is

so much thought put into non-violence around immovable things, then

what to speak on the subject of movable beings? But nowadays, the

best of all movable life forms, better than even the devatas, the

human body, is being contemplated for destruction, what a state of

affairs we are in ! (to be continued)

 

From " Saadhan, Sudhaa, Sindhu " pg 946 in Hindi by Swami Ramsukhdasji

 

For full online discourses in Hindi, please visit Swami

Ramsukhdasji's website. http://www.swamiramsukhdasji.org

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Dear Sadhakas, This passage has moved me deeply. One should still

think about the fact that abortion is wrong. Firstly when a woman or

a man, yes a man can be raped by a woman for his seed. If raped, the

fact is the baby formed is not at fault. One does not have the right

to kill a child just because of that fact.

 

QUESTION 1: What would be such a case when rape occurs and the

child is aborted?

your comments please. Prashanth

---------------------

Dear Sir I read the SADAK dt 26 september 2008 regularly . I read

the following verse in your letter dated 27/09/08.

QUESTION 2: In the Paaraashersmriti - " Yat paapam brahmahattyaa

dvigunam garbhapaatane; Praayashchitam ne tasyaasti tatsyaasyaago

vidhiyate " Can you correctly guide me as to where do I find this

writing below, also does Gita make any reference to this? I wish to

quote it in my meetings in the villages against the female feticide.

(aborting female fetus)

thanks, Kindly do clarify and oblige,

prem khullar

-------------------------------

ADDITIONAL QUERY:

 

Do any of you have any more details on this shloka from Paaraasher

Smriti - " Yat paapam brahmahattyaa dvigunam garbhapaatane;

Praayashchitam ne tasyaasti tatsyaasyaago vidhiyate " . Kindly let me

know any other scriptures where abortion is mentioned as sinful.

Gita shloka does not clearly point to abortion per se. The source

is important, therefore do provide it, along with the quote /

shloka.

 

I am in process of creating slogans for big display boards for

villages and cities of Haryana where female feticide is spreading

like wild fire. Please suggest good slogan ! Please help

immediately.

Sincerely - Prem Khullar.

---------------------------

 

NEW POSTING

 

Jai Hanuman

 

How the " mother " was and how the " mother " has now become - in this

Kaliyuga ! Killing own children ! Indeed - words can't express the

anguish of the soul !! ( Mike Bhaiyya ! I used your words- anguish

of soul !)

 

TU KITNI ACHHI HAI ? TU KITNI BHOLI HAI ? PYAARI PYAARI HAI ! O

MAA ! O MAA !

 

How good are you O Mom ! How docile are you O Mom! Oye Lovely Lovely

Jee ! O Mom ! O Mom!!

 

KI YE JO DUNIYA HAI , YE VAN HAI KAANTO KA , TU FULWAARI HAI ! O

MAA ! O MAA !!

 

That what is this world? This is only a forest of thorns ! You are

mass of flowers in it !! O Mother ! O Mother !!

 

APNA NAHIN TUJHE SUKH DUKH KOI , MAIN MUSKAAYA TU MUSKAAI , MAIN

ROYA TU ROYI !!

 

O Mom! You have no concern for your own pleasures and pains at all !

If I smile , you smile ! If I cry , you cry !!

 

MERE HANSANE PE , MERE RONE PE , TU BALIHAARI HAI ! O MAA , O MAA !!

 

You are ever loving - irrespective of whether I smiled or I cried !

You agree to however I am !! O Mom ! O Mom !!

 

MAA BACHON KI JAAN HOTI HAI ! WOH HOTE HAI KISMAT WALE JINKE MAA

HOTI HAI !!

 

A Mother is the very life force of the child. Fortunate are those ,

whose mother lives long !

 

KITNI SHEETAL HAI, KITNI SUNDAR HAI , NYAARI NYAARI HAI ! O MAA , O

MAA !!

 

How calm ! How adorable !! Always exclusive , super exclusive !! O

Mother ! O Mother !!

 

Hey Daddy the Great ! O Mom !! Kindly save us all from such ghastly

crimes !

 

Agreed, O Binanee S, Jee ! Agreed Vyas NB Jee !! Agreed Mahalaxmi

Maiyyaji !!! Agreed Mira Bahenji !!!! Mike Bhaiyya- sitting with

consort??? - how difficult it can become - when BG 18:32 is

operational?? - for both and each one ? Baba ! Where are we going ?

 

KAHAAN JAA RAHA HAI , TU AIYE JAANE WALE ! ANDHERA HAI MAN KAA DIYA

TO JALALE !!

 

Where are you going O Traveller ? There is darkness all around ! Why

don't you burn the light of " CONSCIENCE " within ?

 

May all understand what is way out of BG 18:32 !!!

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

--------------------------

 

Hari Om

 

Khullarji. Here are some slogans

 

* Silent scream of the fetus - what is my fault O Mummy ? What is my

fault O daddy ?

 

* Don't suck life out of me! Save m ! Save me! Have mercy on me ! I

will bring pleasures in your garden! O mummy - I am your daughter

only!

 

 

* Mera kasoor kya hai ?

 

* O mom ! Please give me birth. My own fate will take care of me

thereafter!

 

* O murderers! You will not even get water in future births what to

talk of food !

 

* O parents ! You enjoyed and I get killed! Is this humanity?

 

* Even a witch leaves at least one house unharmed! Don't kill fetus

in the womb ! Even witches don't do that!

 

* Fetus killing - a frightful disrespect to motherhood !

 

* You want to increase production on one hand and kill producer in

the womb itself- what kind of wisdom is this? What kind of

government is this?

 

* Birth control means converting a female into a prostitute !

 

* Control death first and then think of controlling birth !

 

* Fetus killing is resorted by those who neither believe in

Paramatma, nor in prarbdha (destiny) nor in purushartha!

 

* Getting medical test done, finding female fetus in the womb and

killing ! Is this respect to a woman? Is this a way of giving women

equal rights?

 

* O mothers! Don't lose the power of motherhood for ever! Don't kill

your child! Don't become object of pleasure only for men! Don't

become prostitutes!

 

* Kill fetus and become a non fruit bearing tree forever!

 

* Don't be so merciless O parents ! There will be no one left even

to give you a drop of water in future!

 

* Female fetus killing is the surest method of eliminating mothers

from the planet ! In whose womb you shall sleep in the next birth?

 

* Even bitches, witches and vampires do not kill their own children!

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

 

 

---------------------------

My dandavats to all in this forum...

MY heart breaks when I read the post of Prem Kullar. It is so

terrible that the east has taken up the course of following

activities of the west. I have lived in america my entire life, and

although perhaps I am " privileged " in the sense that I own propety,

car, etc.....I am extremely aware that there is no culture here in

America. No deep rooted traditions, no religious coloring of any

particular faith, and no strong bonds in communities. What little I

could offer in this discussion, is simply WHY? WHY? WHY FOLLOW THE

WEST? Though Sri Krsna's love is everywhere, though daily I

encounter beautiful people with loving hearts, they are suffering so

much in this country. The stress of city life is tremendous.....but

in the country there is no money to be made....(I have done both).

THIS COUNTRY IS DOOMED.....there is very little time left for it due

to its atrocious treatment of the cow, due to abortions, and due to

its policies of usurping and controlling resources of other

nations. WHY, WHY, WHY FOLLOW THE WEST? From the mouth of one

who has lived here my entire life, WAKE UP. I have visited India

twice, both times became completely overwhelmed with love for the

Supreme, to a degree that I am unable to express.....will India give

up all it's accumulated piety to become a hellish pit of

impersonalism and selfishness as the west? I pray not. Again, my

heart aches, what can I say, except all glories to your efforts,

Prem....to stop murder. To open the eyes of those who are blind....

 

In the words of Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta in his purport to bhagavad

Gita, " Those who commit such abominable acts will never see the

light of day again. "

So, the chain of karma will continue.....those killing the fetus

will themselves have to take birth in a womb and be aborted, time

and time again, to pay the price.

 

respectfully,

Mahalaksmi Dasi

------------------------------

Raam ! Raam !! Raam!!!

 

Some slogans for Mr Prem Khullar

 

1. Dont kill me in the womb itself - O mother ! O father ! I

will come with my own fate supporting me in this world !!!

 

2. Efforts of increasing agricultural production and controlling

births is like efforts of increasing milk in mother's breasts and

then not allowing conception !!!

 

3. Oh Mom ! Dear Mom !!! Why I should get killed when you enjoyed ?

 

4. O Father ! O Mother !! Throw me in a dust bin after giving birth!

But don't kill me when i am so helpless !!

 

5. Please! Please save me O parents ! I have capacity to bring

pleasures for you!

 

6. What is my fault? What my fault?? If you don't save me, who

will?

 

7. Even the wildest and the cruelest of animals do not kill their

own children!

 

With sincere Pranaams to all genuine Sadhaks! Shame on those who

advocate such ghastly acts ! SHAME !! SHAME !!!

 

Beenani S.

 

------------------------------

Hari Om

 

Let me now address Khullarji's query.

 

Swamiji used to put up a bill board outside His temporary abode

every where that - Those who have done sin of abortion may please

not bring " bhiksha " for me ! " Bhiksha " - alm of food. Swamiji would

eat food brought by 5 houses every day.

 

In Manusmriti - 4/208 , it is stated that

 

BHROONAN GHAVEKSHITAM CHAIV SANSPRISHTAM CHAAPYUDAKYAYA !

PATATRINA VALEEDHAM CHA SHUNA SANSPRISHTAMEVA CHA !!

 

One should not eat food (1) touched by female in periods (2)

touched by a dog (3) partially eaten by a bird (4) seen by (what to

say " touched by " ) one who ever indulged in abortion !

 

Verse referred by Khullarji is in Parashar Smriti 4/20.

 

YATPAPAM BRAHMA HATYAYA DVIGUNAM GARBHPATNE !

PRAYASHCHITAM NA TASYAATI TASYATYAAGO VIDHIYATE

 

In Brahma Vaivat Purana ( Prakrati Khand, Chapter 2) it is stated

that in the beginning of creation, the basic prakrati ( Shri Radha)

threw her fetus into waters. God immediately cursed her - From now

onwards you will never have a child. Not only that, by your part

whatever " divya " females will get created they also shall be without

a child. Thereafter from the tongue of Basic Nature (Shri Radha) -

Goddess Saraswati incarnated. Later on that Basic Nature got split

into 2 parts. From Left body - Goddess Laxmi incarnated. From Right

body " Radha " incarnated. God also became two. From half left body He

became " Chaturbhuj Vishnu " (Four armed Vishnu) and from right part

He became two armed " Krishna " ! Both Laxmi and Saraswati were

childless. Then from the pours of Krishna countless " Gopas "

incarnated. From pours of Shri Radha countless " Gopis " manifested.

My understanding is that Gopis were infertile, childless !

 

In " Vriddha Suryarun Karma Vipaak " Scripture it is stated:

 

PURVE JANUSHI YA NAARI GARBHA GHAAT KARI HYABHOOT!

GARBHAPAATEN DUKHARTA SAATRA JANMANI JAAYATE !! (477/1)

 

A Lady who had aborted in past lives, suffers in this life on

account of being childless!

 

VANDHYEYA YA MAHABHAAG PRICHHATI SWAM PRAYOJANAM!

GARBHAPAATRATA PURVE JANUSHYATRA PHALAM TVIDAM !!

 

If some Lady asks why she is issueless, infertile in this life?

Answer is due to abortion in the past life. ( 659/1; 856/1; 921/1;

1857/1)

 

GARBHAPATAN PAPADHYA BABHOOV PRAGBHAVEANDAJ !

SAATREVA TEN PAAPEN GARBHESTHERYA NA VINDATI !!

 

O Arun ! One who aborts in prior life, can not bear child in present

life ! ( 1187/1)

 

As simple as that !

 

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

-----------------------------

Woman Power!

by TA Ramesh

 

Without Shakti, Siva cannot do any duty in all the worlds;

Without power, no matter can be active in the Universe;

Without soul, human body cannot survive in the world!

 

Without mother, children cannot grow hale and healthy;

Without wife, husband cannot maintain family and children;

Without woman, man cannot love and live in the world!

 

Beauty, intelligence and love are the aspects of personality

That helps women stand unique in the world;

But, so emotional by nature that it's impossible

For a woman to keep secrets in her heart;

And so, women let the cat out of the bag easily!

 

Hence women show the skeleton kept in the cup-board

Long to anyone who moves them most!

That's why taboos and restrictions imposed on women

Are perhaps rigorous and heartless in many religions,

That are, now, slowly removed by social reforms

By great movement leaders in the modern world.

 

Literature is also full of the Power of Women

As the Main Theme everywhere in the world!

Without the beautiful woman, Helen at the center of the story,

How can Homer's Iliad ever exist in the world?

Without the virtuous woman, Sita in Valmiki's Great Epic,

Ramayana can ever be read so long?

 

Thousands of years, by law and religion,

Women are kept as under-dogs to men;

Women are not just the Weaker Vessels,

Without whose encouraging support

Vessels of Tears won't survive in the world;

Without the knowledge, intelligence and support

Of Woman Power, no family

Can sustain, develop and survive!

 

with regards

Dilip Ravindran

----------------------------

 

PRIOR POSTING

Namaste,

 

Manu's verse ' yatra naaryastu pUjyante ramante tatra devatAh' ( the

gods rejoice/ are happy, where the woman is worshipped) is, I feel,

a powerful message to inculcate respect for women at whichever stage

she may be.

 

Shubhamastu

Anuradha Choudry

------------------------------

-Shree Hari_

 

Clarification: I was reflecting on a place where I once lived long

ago, I was not in poverty but I saw much of it. I would never ever

imply that one should hold a dagger, as it were, at peoples throat,

and demand they follow, rules on their personal behavior , it is the

opposite to what I am. Options can be shown to them, not killing.

 

Many people revert to medicines of some sort or another, for various

conditions, and it often means the death of some organism or other.

In reality many are based on herbs, and a vegetable origin.

In passing my preference is homeopathy.

 

If I get or any person gets bitten by a snake around here, then to

the hospital quick smart, for an antidote, not to is death. (why die

if one can prevent it?)

 

Driven by compassion one would like to see people live life in

comfort and happiness, why not?

 

Yes Divine Feminine 'Shakti', (she is universal), has been suppressed

for thousands of years, and the world has become unbalanced, she has

to sit with her consort once more.

 

My thoughts are exhausted on the subject, I will just read on.

 

With Respect and Divine Love,

 

Mike Keenor

--------------------------------

 

Raam Raam Raam

 

Great Suggestion is that either you dont make efforts to remain

healthy, to cure any illnesses OR we are justified in stopping new

births into this world. Either you control death or we shall control

birth. As simple as that. Why you are taking medicines to cure

fever ? If you are taking medicines, then we shall abort the child.

What shall the child do in this planet? Oh No ! Kill him. Modern

societies cant tolerate this non sense of humans coming on this

planet so fast. Where is the space ? Where is housing for them ? Who

will arrange for their food, water, upkeep, maintenance? How costly

are the living now a days ? We want freedom ! We have come on this

planet, and after applying our minds we have concluded that in

modern societies such non sensical obstacles to sensual pleasures is

unwarranted ! Kill them . Stop them from coming to this world. Now

that we have come into this planet, where is the need for any other?

It is these new arrivals that has made this world so bad, and

unlivable. No , Sorry ! We cant let them enter. Kill the fetus.

Simply kill ! All problems are only because of that only ! Kill the

fetus in the womb itself. Suck the life out of it. Let us enjoy. We

never wanted the child. We just wanted to enjoy the human life. From

where this conception hascome ? Oh , dont worry kill the fetus ! We

are modern, we are not orthodox people. If we dont stop human beings

from coming to this world, then what shall be the difference between

us and animals. Animals mate only when there is season for mating.

They have to exercise restraints and disciplines- not the human

beings. Animals are animals only because they mate only when there

is a season. We are not animals. We are human beings. We shall mate

anytime we want - morning evening, day, night, January, April, June

any time, any month. What a fun ! What an obstacle to this fun is

this conception. That is spoil sport. Kill the fetus. After all we

are privileged, we are intelligent. We can invent devices to kill

them anytime. Science is pretty advanced. Vacuum cleaners. Suck the

life out of that creature. What the fetus thought we are so stupid.

Gone are those old concepts of father, mother, protector ! Non

sense. We have mind, intellect, beautiful body. This conception

is undesirable - a simple nuisance! We have thought over it, all

problems are only because of increase in population. From where the

additional income will come? From where we shall feed the children ?

No ! Not Possible!! Our leaders also say so. Entire economy is in

mess only because of this over population. Enjoy mating, but kill

fetus. Where is the need for child here ? Shall we eat ourselves or

get entangled in arranging food for them ? Are we so stupids ? Come

On ! Either you control death or we shall abort !!! We are modern

humans. Kill the fetus. No arguments. Kill ! If you want to live

peacefully - murder ! Or Control Death !

 

Raam Raam Raam !

 

Beenani S

 

------------------------------

Dear Vipra Bandhavaha, evam itare suhridaha,

We must avoid debates and discussion on which modern educated and so

called Western feminist women will have strong view. It is a pity

that they could destroy what they cannot create. See the ten per

cent of married couples who long and yearn for children and are not

blessed so. Think deeply, do not impose your views on others.

Vriddha Divakarosmi Bhoh.

 

------------------------------

Jai Hanuman

 

People often say if the population is not controlled there will be

shortage of eatables on the planet. This poverty , mal nutrition are

only because of population growth. Hence population control is the

answer for all these menaces confronting humanity. Wrong are they!!

Patently wrong ! Absolutely wrong !

 

Taat Shree ( Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj) said that kind of actions

which so called intelligentia advocate to support population

control, kind of sins which are increasingly getting legalised -

what to say eatables and food grains , one will not even get water

as a result .

 

Oh What a pity Jee ! A human being wants to live comfortably and in

order to do that, he wishes/wants to put obstacles in another human

being, in it's being born ! Is that humanity ? That is how you feel

one can bring happiness, order, harmony, pleasure in human life?

Such arguments are in reality a garbage advanced by power hungry

stupid politians to justify mis-management of existing resources and

mislead. Economics !! Sheer Nonsense !

 

Indeed the intellect can get into the spell of what is stated in BG

18:32. This is Kaliyuga Jee. This is how at the last phase of time

cycle, the humans can become. It will worsen in times to come. Ever

heard the term " cannibalism " ? Humans are heading towards the same.

 

Get liberated Jee, Realise Paramatma, O Dear Sadhaks Jee, as fast

as you can. Future will unfold else the circumstances and scenes

which you will never want to see again. Who have been left?. Those

who from Satyuga, to Treta to Dwapar till today have always set

example of BG 18:32. Most of us are in that zone only. Hurry up

Please Jee!

 

See how do they perceive - Hell with your coming on this planet, we

have come first and now we shall not allow you to come ! We will

enjoy the physical relationship, privilege, without letting you

come in Jee. Don't you know who we are Jee? Humans , Humans ! We

are humans !

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

--------------------------

------------------------------

 

Hari Om

 

I am in perfect agreement with Mahalaxmi Dasi and Mike Keenor. Of

course Mira Dass was immaculate as usual, completely relevant and

absolutely correct. Frankly, I can't say so for most of the views of

Mr Naga Narayana. If he wants as a sadhak to know as to why I feel

so , we can discuss briefly through short notes the reasons thereof.

 

Mike- you are right in most of your observations regarding birth

control pills also. That is not bad. But good is copulation timing

and male condoms. Better is " control " over the very desire and the

Best is mating only for giving birth ! ONLY WITH THAT PURPOSE !!

 

Reply of B Sathyanarainji is 100 percent right. No doubt about

that ! Mahalaxmi Dasi's response is one of the best write ups on the

subject , I have ever read.

 

Certainly Sobhanaji. Shame on the males can only be and rightfully

be attributed by females who are 1000 times more able, better and

powerful than males. All powers arise from female - Goddess

Shakti . All glories and happiness in this world arises out of

Goddess Laxmi- again a female. Mother Nature is a female.. You are

entitled to say so ! Sanatan Dharma is in favour of your entitlement

to do so ! My compliments as a sadhak .

 

Operations of males/females so that there is no conception is

extremely bad act. You get disentitled to perform many rituals and

you don't return to God and atmosphoric airs, what was received by

you - for the reasons best known to you only.

 

I have heard this from elders (don't remember if I read somewhere)

that Goddess Mahalaxmi had aborted a child in some human life. Even

after having Lord Naraina (Lord Vishnu) as her husband, she could

never become mother again. As simple as that !!

 

How a man is a man, if he has no powers to become father, has no

reproductive capacity ? Just How? How a woman is a woman if she has

no powers to become mother, has no reproductive capacity ? Just how?

 

But Mike , I really could not understand any relevance of your

reference of over population at the near by place. Really ! If you

mean to say that over population is not desirable and must be

controlled by any one , then I beg to differ with you. We can have a

deliberation on this. Divine deliberation ! Real Satsanga !! Example

setting form of satsanga !

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

----------------------------

 

I agree with you Shobhnaji, thousand percent. Shame on us to keep

treating the women folk with deep rooted disrespect.

 

To others, this is a social issue. And hence does not befit this

forum. Therefore, I desist to respond to the other queries

raised ... Mahabharata and Bhagavadgita are as useful to the society

as to a spiritual aspirant. But … that needs a different forum.

Therefore, let me be brief ...

 

To Dasiji, Vyaasji, Mike and others who have commented on the

feutus's freedom to take life … my question is regarding the freedom

of the person living. Our poor brothern in India has paid heavily on

the rape, violation and enslavement for more than a millenium thanks

to the wrongly preached spiritual values in social life. Again, the

problem is not in the great spiritual values … but, in the

preaching. Bhagavan Vyaasa warns sternly … Na buddhidhedam janayet …

never preach these values … they are only for seekers. Because,

those who do not understand the depth of concepts such as Ahimsa

(non-violence) and Shaanti (peace) would let their natural cowardice

reign their lives. It is the responsibility of a saint to

acknowledge that the world cannot be saintly. Whoever tried to

spread sainthood in the history has achieved nothing but social

fragmentation … sainthood never appeared in humanity so far.

Therefore, if at all spirituality helps, it should let the humans be

just humans first from social perspective.

 

Dasiji feels that the death is not a Godly act while birth is a

Godly act. If their exists a devil against the God, I can only pity

such appreciation of God. Good and bad are our creation in our

illusions. Just because we love birth and hate death, we cannot

project the same ignorance on God. Birth and death are both God's

gifts to us. We should treat both the same way with absolute

respect. If we cannot, at least we should not wield hypocracy to

suit our beliefs.

 

God is not their to protect anybody but has provided everything to

do so oneself. Krishna never fights ... Arjuna has to. If God " had

to " protect, he would have protected the violation of freedom of a

woman in the first place. One who suffers has all the right to

respond to one's own suffering in one's own way. Spirituality cannot

trespass its compassion to preach either way. Such judgment will be

as lopsided as of the Bramhin who tried to interfere with an eagle's

attempt to eat its food, a snake.

 

Vyasji has quoted Karna … the goodness captive in the bad … nothing

but a slave to the bad … committed to serve the bad till death. What

is the use of such goodness? In fact, more harmful to the society!

 

Again, the society should be The Bhima who pulls out the heart of

the beastly violaters enroute. Incidentally, he does not need

Krishna's intervention because Krishna's approval is inherent in all

his actions.

 

Respects.

 

Naga Narayana

 

---------------------------

Namaste

 

DAADU DUNIYA BAAWARI , FIKAR KARE GELI !

ROTI DESI RAMJEE, DOPAARA PELI !!

 

Said Sage Daaduji

 

Mad has gone this world ! Absolutely crazy. It is worrying

unnecessarily out of stupidity. God will provide meals to you before

noon time.

 

Mr Naga Narayana - Worry not ! There is one creator, preserver and

destroyer , called, Paramatma ( Ever heard this name?) who will take

care through Mother Nature about birth, death, fame, illfame,

happiness and sorrow.

 

Said Sage Vashishtha to Bharatji

 

AHO BHARAT BHAAVI PRABAL, BILAKH KAHAT MUNIRAAJ !

HAANI LAABH JEEVAN MARAN, JAS APJAS VIDHI HAATH !!

 

O Bharat ! Destiny is very powerful. Profit, Loss, Death, Birth,

Fame and Ill fame are controlled by Destiny only.

 

Stop giving reasons. Simply dont disturb the Laws of Nature . You

have no rights to do that. What if our fathers also thought in the

similar manner? How we would have been able to become humans then?

Dont we run to a doctor if urine stops ? We are that weak ! Why

should we take responsibility of Creator on our weak shoulders?

Stupidity is that- Isnt it ?

 

HAM EK KHILONE HAIN, EK AISE KHILAADI KE !

JISKO ABHI SADIYON TAK YEH KHEL RACHAANA HAI !!

 

We are toys in the hands of that player, who is yet to continue this

world for centuries and centuries.

 

Chesta Vinod

-----------------------------

Priya Sadhaks

 

Sobhanaji has indeed expressed herself naturally and therefore

powerfully. But only in writing " Shame on you all " ! On balance

there was nothing .

 

Madam ! None is bad here!! Change the vision and you shall start

seeing the ultimate good here ! Try it !

 

Why inflict any shame on any one?

 

At the lotus feet of all of you and of Paramatma

 

MM Purohit

 

 

===============================================================

 

PRIOR POSTING

My dandavats to all in this forum....

 

In regard to the concept of taking pills to prolong health being

" hypocritical " if one is against pills to stop birth......I am

shocked that one with knowledge would dare equate the two concepts.

Doesn't the Supreme Lord appear as Dhanvantari, to give knowledge of

herbs to help human beings? Where is there any reference where the

Supreme Lord would say, " yes, abort this child " ? Anyone can say

anything, but one must analyze according to scripture, if he or she

is to truly benefit the cause of humanity.

Also, I believe it is a myth that there is overpopulation. I

truly believe that mother Bhumi can expand her form, if needed, she

is alive....she is not dead matter. The problem today is

mismanagement of the resources. In the time of Prthu Maharaj,

another incarnation of the Lord mentioned in the Srimad Bhagavatm,

mother earth also withheld fruits and vegetables and grains, as there

was so little sacrifice in the human hearts taking place. On the

threat of Prthu Maharaj, she agreed to produce abundantly. Are

there those who think these stories are simply folk lore?

Again, anyone can say anything, but the laws of material nature

will act, regardless. If I say that the sun will rise in the west,

I can say it every day til I leave this world, but will it happen?

No, it will not. I cannot change the laws of nature. Killing is

sinful, attempting to prevent a soul from entering a womb using any

birth control is sinful, and reactions will come whether one

believes or not. This is the law of karma. Otherwise, if this were

not true, it would stand to reason that there is nothing wrong with

unlimited illicit sexual activity. Yes, just use birth control,

have abortions, enjoy your body all you choose...IS THERE ANYONE WHO

CAN SUPPORT THIS TYPE OF MENTALITY FROM A RELIGIOUS OR DEVOTION TO

GOD STAND-POINT? I don't believe it is possible.

Also, it may be true that the perpetrator of rape is a

rascal....but a woman cannot justify her act of murdering an unborn

child merely because a male chose to act sinfully. The two sins do

not balance each other out. Women must return to their role of

being protectors of society, of righteousness...with no " attitude "

of hatred toward the ignorance of males, otherwise the love and grace

of Laksmi will never again flow abundantly on this planet.

The " blame game " should not be for those of saintly character.

 

Respectfully submitted,

Mahalaksmmi Dasi

-------------------------------

-Shree Hari-

I found the comments by Naga Narayana and Meera Das absorbing, the

full spectrum as it were.

OK there was a program on TV here, that showed an abortion, not

simulated, the real thing, the apparatus used was a sort of vacuum

device the sucked the life from the womb.

As I watched this, I experienced something unusual, I had no

emotions, it was as if I were stone, no anger no horror, I was in the

presence of demonic evil, somehow my emotions retreated, my defenses

were up, sometimes evil can be so great it seems, that words and

reactions have no place.

What I saw, I never want to see again,.

Preventing conception, is not killing of life, there is timing of

copulation, condoms, barriers, and birth control pills; they do not

abort, I personally think that the birth control pill may have

dangers, as it interferes with normal bodily functions.

However if the pill prevents the resort to abortion, then so be it.

If a woman is raped, the fetus is not the intruder, the brute who

raped her is. Punish him by the full force of the law, not the fetus.

(I understand in some countries, it's almost impossible to be charged

with rape, and the victims can be punished, how terrible!)

 

I have personally witnessed, the stinking mire that over population,

poverty, animals and humans living in close proximity, the over

powering smell of camels, goats , and sewage, and what it does to

people.

 

So on the subject of abortion, I see strength in Meera Das point of

view, and on birth control, I think Naga Narayana, has sound

arguments.

 

With Respect and Divine Love.

 

Mike Keenor

------------------------------

What about the karma of the men who rape? All the views expressed

here do not take into account that women are human beings, have

feelings and have the right to perhaps cleanse themselves of the

sins committed by men. Abortion is the only way to cleanse such sin

committed by men, who are " protectors " and hide behind religious

views.

 

Shame on all of you.

Shobhna S. Kumar

-------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Hari Om

 

Under no circumstance, even if the circumstance is life

threatening - the sin of abortion should not be done.

Any happenning in our life is outcome of our own karma meted out by

God's laws through nature. Law of Karma is precise and accurate in

its operation.

 

Every incidence has kripa (benevolence) of God hidden in it. Every

adverse incident provides you an opportunity to get closer to God by

right conduct and right utilisation of given circumstance. The human

birth has not been given for petty comforts and worldly pleasures.

It is a challenging, sadhan ( striving for God Realisation) form of

life. The austerity resulting from given adverse circumstances is

God sent/willed as per our own prior deeds.One must take such God

sent austerities as an opportunity for spiritual advancement. One

must perceive the human life as a special form of life- not to enjoy

worldly pleasures but to happily do one's duty without caring for

one's right and another's duty. Job is already on hand, of giving

birth to the innocent child, the duty is already on hand. The

aggrieved should take it so, give birth to the child, and thereafter

she may handover the child to orphanage etc.

 

One must be " careful in " doing " , and happy in " happening "

(result) " . No circumstance can force you to commit new sins.

 

Sanatan Dharma Scriptures deal with every type of circumstance.

Similar circumstance was faced by Kunti also. Kunti was mother of

Karna conceived when she was unmarried through Sun. She gave birth

to the child and silently surrendered the child to the mother

nature. Karna went on to be a part of history forever. Karna earned

admiration of all , including from Lord Krishna. He was one of the

greatest philanthropist the Indian soil has ever produced. He

redefined the art of giving/donating/ renunciation. He was " tyaag

murti " . Karna was the eldest son of Kunti- elder than

Yuddhister/Bhim/Arjuna/Nakul/Sahdev.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

--------------------------

HELLO SIR,

Your own conscience is the best guide. follow it. In so doing see

that your action does not harm the other person. Follow the maxim "

do unto others what you expect from others " That's what the Mahatma

Gandhi said, " I look to my inner self for guidance when I am in

trouble " . So said Lord Buddha too.

Ramachander Homma

--------------------------

Dear Sadaks,

If a lady conceives, it is not her wish or effort. Many women even

after marriage do not concieve. Why? The child to be born is

predecided by the Karma of that soul. In certain cases the child

gets aborted naturally, which is no way connected with anybody or

Sin.

But to abort a child is wrong. The cause is abortion and the effect

is the lady who aborted the child, will have rebirth as lady who

will have no issues (children). This lady who aborted can even be a

tree in her next birth, where the tree does not yield fruits. The

rebirth depends on once Paapas (sins) and Puniyas (virtues).

Referance Garbopanashid.

B.Sathyanarayan

--------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

I resonate totally with the views expressed by Naga Narayanji on

this subject.

No action in itself is right or wrong without regard to

circumstances surrounding it.

An action such as abortion may be right in one set of circumstances

and wrong in another set of circumstances. In otherwords, actions

are not inherently right or wrong.

There are many examples in daily life where we can see this to be

true.

I think that right action comes to one who is steadfast on the path

of righteousness (dharma), and seeks all decisions from the Totality

of Being(THAT) and never as an individual! In such cases interest of

all parties involved in actions are duly considered by THAT. Such

actions are God taking actions through people for people.

Namaskaras........Pratap Bhatt

 

--------------------------

 

PRIOR POSTING

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

As our scriptures says - if we believe that we are the Atma (Soul,

Spirit, Individual Consciousness), and if we also believe that human

life is the rarest form of birth (1 of 8.4 million species in this

Universe), and that only in this human form of life, one can attain

freedom from all bondages, one can realize their true nature, one

can attain salvation, one can realize eternal bliss, one can develop

love of God… etc., then common sense says that what Swamiji says is

without any doubt to be accepted - i.e. we have no right to stop

the evolution of a Soul, by creating roadblocks in it's evolution

cycle. This roadblock that we place on another souls' progress, to

not allow it an opportunity for salvation, will definitely have it's

consequences and is a grave sin. Most of the times, we sin due to

desire for our own happiness, self protection, comforts, betterment,

selfish reasons, and if we look at it from that perspective, also

the reason for abortions are also mostly for the same reasons, for a

little convenience and happiness, we are destroying another life,

and not allowing it to be born as a human, a soul that could have

realized the Self / God, and attain salvation etc.

 

Swamiji has said it is briefly addressed in Gita, under demoniac

tendencies. Gita 16:9 " Prabhavantyu grakarmaanah kshayaaya

jagatohitaah. " " Not believing in the eternal soul, the demoniac

natured appear as enemies of the world, for its destruction. " Gita

16:9

Unknowingly we destroy and kill helpless lives, and are hoping the

we will be benefited. How can we be benefited? How can we attain

salvation?

" Jaan-jaanker mook, asamarth jivon ki hatyaa karte ho aur caahete ho

ki hamaaraa bhallaa ho jaaye; kaise ho jaayegaa? kalyaan kaise ho

jaayegaa ?

 

For their selfish motives, such demoniac people indulge in violence,

murder and usurpation etc., without thinking of the pain, which they

inflict upon others.

" Dharmasarvasva suno, aur sunker dhaaran kar lo. Jo aacharan apnese

pratikool ho, usko dusero ke prati mat karo. "

 

Looking at a broader more Universal perspective, who truly takes

care of the 8.4 millions species? Do we? What arrogance to think

that we alone have the right and the burden of responsibility for

that conceived fetus? In many countries, one has to wait for years

and pay a huge amount, to adopt a child. Our ego and selfishness is

causing us to not give this opportunity to another soul and to

instead sin.

 

Not only that, many women who visited Swamiji after having undergone

several abortions, found their bodies to be significantly weakened,

undergoing several irreversible health problems. (I am truly

unaware of the medical and health implications, as this is based

only on experiences / problems that women shared with Swamiji).

 

After listening to Swamiji / reading his thoughts from books for a

number of years, after listening to the way He responded to question

and answers, there was never a question that he could not answer to

one's satisfaction. He had thought about everything he shared,

deeply for a long time, before he even uttered a word or stated

something firmly. In my opinion, Swamiji and all the major

religions of the world that believe in pro-life cannot be wrong!

 

Hope this helps.

Meera Das

Ram Ram

-------------------------------

Sanity and Sanctity of Birth-Control and Abortion

 

Many religions are committed to the propaganda of the idea of anti-

abortion and anti-birth-control strongly even in the so-called

advanced societies such as West. I strongly advocate that this is an

extremely lopsided vision from both social as well as natural

persepctives. By the way, spirituality has nothing to do with it!

 

We hear a lot like " birth is God's Grace and hence we should not

intefere; any such intereference is the greed, selfishness and

arrogance of humans against God's Grace " . I agree with it completely

ONLY IF it is also appreciated in tandem that " death is also God's

Grace and hence we should not interfere with that as well " . Death is

part of the creation as much as the birth. Is it OK to exercise our

ego to interfere with THAT when we are trying all we could do to

avoid/postpone the death? Isn't it the same greed and arrogance in

action in this case as well? Are we not disgracing ourselves by not

believing God's will in our death??

 

My suggestion to the birth-promoters is, " do not take a single pill

to interfere with God's will in the deseases, aging as well as in

death. Then, you are entitled to claim that one should not

interefere with God's will. " Taking all medicinal help to promote

our survival rate and life span on one hand and rejecting the same

for birth control on the other hand is hypocracy. Such attitude is

utterly (1) anti-nature resulting in lopsided population growth of

one single species on this earth; and (2) anti-society resulting in

undue stress of life demands overwhelming the resources. As far as

death control is excercised, one should allow the birth control to

balance the act in any soceity. That is social sanity and that is

natural sanctity.

 

Again, promoting one's material life on this earth is not at all the

agenda of Bhagavad Gita. The agenda is to cleanse the life we have

already taken … to learn how to live it well and how to leave it as

well. That does not remove any of our social responsibilities and

natural obligations. One can get liberated from the social

responsibilities by accepting the nature – birth and death alike. On

the other hand, one cannot get liberated from the natural

obligations till one lives.

 

Also, abusing the spiritual texts for social promotion is incorrect

and can lead to become frantically religious and religiously

fanatic. Bhagavaan Vyaasa advocates to never preach spirituality to

one who cannot appreciate it for one with half-baked knowledge will

lead to natural catastrophies such as population explosion which

eventually culminates in social catastrophies such as wars.

 

Na buddhibhedam janayet agnyaanaam karmasanginaam |

Joshayet sarva karmaani vidvaanyuktassamaacharan ||

 

For social issues such as abortion one should adapt common sense and

social awareness that reflects the circumstantial reality. If the

woman is forced to bear a feutus against her will, she has all the

rights to terminate the same. I request the same preachers to catch

hold of the male beasts that cause such distress in the fisrt place

and terminate them instead. Nobody has any right to interfere in

this matter when one cannot share the burden of the socio-economical

implications let alone the physio-psychological distress imposed

upon the victim. Why should an innocent woman suffer because of a

beastly male? Society should be The Bhima who pulls out the heart of

such beasts enroute. Incidentally, he does not need Krishna's

intervention because Krishna's approval is inherent in all his

actions.

 

Respects.

 

Naga Narayana

------------------------------

Dear Sir ,

 

You mentioned the shloka:

" Yat paapam brahmahattyaa dvigunam garbhapaatane; Praayashchitam ne

tasyaasti tatsyaasyaago vidhiyate " (Parasharsmriti 4:20).

 

Please let me know if you know any more details about this Shloka.

 

I am planning to put up boards with slogan in the villages with this

verse picture of Lord Krishna and Radha and duly translated thus :

 

BRUNE HATYA JO KARE HOGA MAHAAPAP

VIDHATA KA USSKO LAGEGA BHANKAR SHRAAP.

 

Any idea of better slogan? or any other thoughts on this?

 

Prem Khullar

-------------------------------

 

PRIOR POSTING

Hare Krishna

 

Answer to Question 1

 

Prashantji, I am pasting the answer of your question from Swamiji's

book " Sadhan-Sudha-Sindhu " page 960.

 

Q. If it becomes compulsory for woman to abort the baby due to an

infection, then what should she do?

 

A. She will definitely incur the sin of abortion. For protecting

woman people abort the baby but this should not be done. What has to

happen will indeed happen. If the woman has to die then even after

abortion she will die. If she is destined to live longer then she

will not die even if she chooses not to abort. Whatever may be the

cause of death, it will only arrive when the time is up. So abortion

should never be done.

 

Q. Should abortion be carried out in case an unmarried woman becomes

pregnant?

 

A. That boy and girl should marry who had pre-marital sex. If the

marriage is not possible then also abortion should not be done. The

girl should nurture that child and give him/her to an orphanage or

give it to someone who wants to adopt a child.

 

If a woman is raped then the rapist will incur terrible sin. If the

woman has derived pleasure from that then she will also incur sin.

All sins emanate from sensual desire. So the amount of sin will be

in direct proportion with the pleasure derived by that woman. If the

woman did not take any pleasure then she will not incur sin.

 

If an unmarried woman is pregnant then her parents will also incur

sin for their carelessness. It is a must for parents that they take

utmost care of their daughter and not give her excessive

independence.

 

Q. If society comes to know about it then she will become infamous

and no one will marry her?

 

A. After committing sin one has to bear defamation. Abortion,

suicide and running from home. In comparison to these three sins,

it's better to bear the defamation. If no one is willing to marry

her then she should reside in her father's house and spend her life

in worshipping God. This will be penance for her which will destroy

her sins.

 

Q. If a married woman is raped and she becomes pregnant then what

should be done?

 

A. It is better for her to be quiet. If husband comes to know about

it then he should also remain quiet. The couple's slience is best

for them. In reality, one should always be attentive from the

beginning so that such kind of situations do not arise. My

suggestion is not for abortion because it is an ultimate sin

(MahaPaap).

 

Answer to Question 2

 

Shri Khullarji, you are indeed doing great social service by

rescuing women from committing sins like abortion etc. This society

needs people like you.

 

Gita doesn't specifically mention about abortion. It strikes the

root of sin i.e. desire and God has spoken at length on it. Read

Gita (3-36, 37 and 16-21, 23, 24)

 

Premji, Gitapress has published 2 books.

 

Matrishakti Ka Ghor Apman (Code 420)

Desh Ki Vartaman Dash Aur Uska Parinam (Code 617)

Check the details at www.gitapress.org. You can use these 2 books

for your purpose.

 

These 2 books are also included in a 1000 page book Sadhan-Sudha-

Sindhu (Code 465). It is a compilation of more than 40 books of

Swamiji's teachings.

 

Thanks,

 

Hare Krishna

Varun P. Paprunia

-------------------------------

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

From Gita Talk Moderator:

 

" Sadhan, Sudha, Sindhu " in Hindi by Swami Ramsukhdasji, can be

viewed online for free at:

 

http://www.swamiramsukhdasji.org/swamijibooks/pustak/pustak1/html/sad

hansudhasindhu/main.html

Ram Ram

 

-------------------------------

:Shree Hari:

Ram Ram

 

26th September, 2008, Friday

Ashwin Krishna Dvaadashi, Vikram Samvat 2065, Shukravar

 

" Mana jaane sab baat, jaan boojh avaguna kare

kyon chaahat kusalaat, ker deepak koonye pade. "

 

At present times such terrible and fearsome sins are taking place,

that simply by listening, one's hair stands on ends, eyes become

filled with tears, and heart is deeply moved ! Ram Ram Ram, what

terrible unjustice, what fearsome sins are taking place, but your

attention is not going there at all ! Human body is said to be the

rarest of all all forms of life -

" Durlabho maanushyo deho dehinaam shunabhangurah " (Srimad Bhagavat

11:2:29)

" Labdhvaa sudurlabhmidam bahusambhvaante,

maanushyamarthdamnityampeeh dheerah " (Srimad Bhagavat 11:9:29)

" bade bhaag maanushya tanu paava. Sur durlabh sab granthnhi

gaava. " (Manas 7:43:7)

 

Such a rare human body, is being destroyed at the very beginning.

It is being cut up along with the jeev, and this is such a great

offense, it is such injustice, it is a terrible sin! My mind feels

immense pain, it is feeling great distress, but what to do! The

human body by which one can realize God, to not allow that human

body to even be born, and to destroy it, it is the ultimate sin !

To not allow some soul the opportunity to receive a human body, to

not allow that human body to even be born, to take medication from

the beginning and destroy it, through abortion or any other means.

One has stooped so low - not only to think about going to hell

themselves, but at the same time not even allowing another soul the

opportunity for upliftment, for benediction ! Now what is one to

do? Who to share this with? And who will listen to my point? Is

there no one listening ?

 

For ascetics it has been written in the scriptures to not travel

much during " Chaturmaas " (four months in a year during the rains).

Because during these month, due to the rains, every seed grows into

a sappling, which later grows into a tree. By extensive traveling,

walking, these seedlings come under the feet and are destroyed.

Therefore during this four month period, the ascetics do not walk

and roam around much, so that unknowingly no violence is done to any

life form. In Bhagavat it has been said, that if you wish to gain

victory over violence, then reduce the movement of the body -

" hinsaa kaayaadhyaneehayaa. " (Bhagavat 7:15:23). When there is

so much thought put into non-violence around immovable things, then

what to speak on the subject of movable beings? But nowadays, the

best of all movable life forms, better than even the devatas, the

human body, is being contemplated for destruction, what a state of

affairs we are in ! (to be continued)

 

From " Saadhan, Sudhaa, Sindhu " pg 946 in Hindi by Swami Ramsukhdasji

 

For full online discourses in Hindi, please visit Swami

Ramsukhdasji's website. http://www.swamiramsukhdasji.org

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Dear Sadhakas, This passage has moved me deeply. One should still

think about the fact that abortion is wrong. Firstly when a woman or

a man, yes a man can be raped by a woman for his seed. If raped, the

fact is the baby formed is not at fault. One does not have the right

to kill a child just because of that fact.

 

QUESTION 1: What would be such a case when rape occurs and the

child is aborted?

your comments please. Prashanth

---------------------

Dear Sir I read the SADAK dt 26 september 2008 regularly . I read

the following verse in your letter dated 27/09/08.

QUESTION 2: In the Paaraashersmriti - " Yat paapam brahmahattyaa

dvigunam garbhapaatane; Praayashchitam ne tasyaasti tatsyaasyaago

vidhiyate " Can you correctly guide me as to where do I find this

writing below, also does Gita make any reference to this? I wish to

quote it in my meetings in the villages against the female feticide.

(aborting female fetus)

thanks, Kindly do clarify and oblige,

prem khullar

-------------------------------

ADDITIONAL QUERY:

 

Do any of you have any more details on this shloka from Paaraasher

Smriti - " Yat paapam brahmahattyaa dvigunam garbhapaatane;

Praayashchitam ne tasyaasti tatsyaasyaago vidhiyate " . Kindly let me

know any other scriptures where abortion is mentioned as sinful.

Gita shloka does not clearly point to abortion per se. The source

is important, therefore do provide it, along with the quote /

shloka.

 

I am in process of creating slogans for big display boards for

villages and cities of Haryana where female feticide is spreading

like wild fire. Please suggest good slogan ! Please help

immediately.

Sincerely - Prem Khullar.

---------------------------

 

NEW POSTING

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

I have been a member of this group from the past few months

and have been quite influenced by the thoughts expressed by sadhaks.

But I am surprised to see that blame of abortions has been laid only

on the women. I think body of the female is involved but their male

counterparts are also equally responsible for the sin. why the

learned and respected sadhaks are counting sins that will be upon

the female involved in the sin. As I said physical body of the

female is involved and as I have learned form this sat sang only

that body is unreal and nothing it is the soul that is real. I

think the soul of their male counterparts should be equally

responsible for the sin. Can all these learned people who have read

so many scriptures also count the sins that would be upon the males

to discourage them from such acts. I think if the males desist from

misusing female body and are forthcoming in having responsibilities

of the child no woman on earth would like to abort.

 

VANDANA

---------------------------

NOTE: My response had to be lengthy ... pl. wield patience to

examine the same ... Apologies ... Naga.

 

About abortion, its insanity and its sanity

===========================================

 

I am unable to contain myself with this burning social issue on

which enormous confusion is looming around from ages. I decided not

to pursue this further … but, could not help but to get back.

 

There has been considerable debate on the issue of abortion here.

Considerable emotions are thrown in as well. It is good to know that

there are so many souls sensitive enough on the serenity of life.

 

OF COURSE, ABORTION IS A HIDEOUSLY PAINFUL CONCEPT AND A HEINOUS

REALITY TO ANY SANE PERSON.

 

It is not acceptable to me in person as well! The true question here

is, should it not be acceptable at any cost? I have to be pragmatic

and impersonal to address such a grave question.

 

FYI, the burning question is,

 

" Whether a raped woman has right NOT to bear the resultant feutus? "

 

NOT, " Whether abortion is good or not? "

 

I request you all to review your opinions with this in mind. When I

uttered what I did, I put myself in such a woman's position and felt

what it would be like in meditation. If it helps, put yourselves or

your beloved ones in such a position and then think about such

burning questions. Blindly quoting scriptures cannot resolve social

issues. Resonance with the problems with utter transparency can

alone bring resolution to such issues. Therefore, I again urge you

all … put yourselves and/or your beloved ones in such a woman's

condition … and then think. PLEASE.

 

The questions that would bother me if I impose my personal agenda of

anti-abortion are many …

 

How correct is it on my part to insist the woman to forget that she

is also a human being entitled equally to liberty of actions and

freedom of thoughts just like me? Is it not that such victims should

be given more freedom to express themselves? … as they truly want?

 

How correct is it to insist that violation of her core existence is

nothing when compared to some values that I belieive in, whatsoever

it is?

 

Suppose the woman listens and bears the child. She is obviously

tormented by the memory of her violation all through as the feutus

as well as the future child keeps this torment alive by keeping the

memories alive … how can she conduct herself as a mother with joyous

love toward the child when she herself is tormented?

 

How can any value I preach replace her torment? Nobody here seems to

be bothered about what to do the bastard who violated her! All are

throwing stones of religious insistence on the poor woman who is

already suffering from her misfortune!! What difefrence is there

between ones who physically kill such innocent victims with stones

and the ones who are throwing stones of guilt to kill her

psychologically?

 

On the other hand, the child who missed the true love and compassion

of a mother … can my religious insistance take responsibility for

such children's welfare? Can anything, even god, replace the joyous

love of a mother?

 

Suppose the child was born … there is no father … after all, how can

a rapist be a father? Even if he takes such a role, it is worse than

not having one … Have you ever considered the fate of a father-less

child? Can anything such as religion replace a father to a child?

 

What rights do we have to impose motherhood on a woman who is not

ready?

 

What rights do we have to deceive the child off its mother's joyous

love?

 

What rights do we have to dismiss the heavenly affection of a father

to such a child?

 

Afterall, if a child grows in such anarchical circumstances … what

person would it turn out to be? … a depressed vegetable, a synical

contortionist or a cruel criminal … what rights do we have have to

impose such a tax on the rest of the soceity?

 

I have not touched upon many smaller, but yet burningly real, issues

… Who will bear the econmoc burden of supporting the unfortunate

mother and the fatherless child? Who will bear the social burden of

keeping the unfortunate woman and her child happy? Is it worth being

an orphan struggling for a mouthful on the streets? I can not answer

this … an orphan can and should!

 

It is OK … the woman gave birth to a child … what about the rest of

her life? Who will marry her? If not, her whole womanhood is wasted

… in our own terms, it is a bigger sin that she is not bearing

children anymore … unless the religion summons her to keep

reproducing children the same way!!! Should it?

 

After all what use was there by the honourable religion's

intervention in such personal issues? Could it make the woman happy?

Could it make the child happy? Could it contribute to soceity's

health anyway?

 

FINALLY, CAN MY IDEOLOGY OF ANTI-ABORTION SUPERCEDE ALL THE

CONSEQUENTIAL SOCIAL CALAMITIES?

 

Answers to such subtle questions are always circumstantial. The

soceity is ever dynamic and keeps changing its value structure.

Accordingly social solutions should evolve to keep the soceity as

well as its elements in in its healthy dynamic equilibrium.

Reference to scriptures is valuable only if it is interpreted with

the circumstantial sanity in mind. For example, one might have

realized god ... it does not mean that the victim is also god-

realized. One should get into the victim's shoes to experience the

agony and search for the solution there. That requires the thinkers

of the soceity to resonate with the issue. As a spiritual seeker I

accept the highest degree of social responsibility Bhagavan Vyaasa

instructs me with:

 

Yadyadaacharati shreshthastattadev'taro janaah |

Sa yatpramaanam kuru te lokaastadanuvartate ||

 

Because others are probably gullible to just take the advise from

an " apparently intelligent source " … as a spiritual seeker I need to

consider the background of the soceity thoroughly without pushing my

personal ideologies …

 

Therefore … I request you all to put yourselves in the spot,

meditate on the issue ... and, then deliberate. PLEASE.

 

AGAIN, the question is, " Whether a raped woman has right NOT to bear

the resultant feutus? " This question does not raise if she is happy

to bear it on her own.

 

AND, the question is NOT, " Whether abortion is good or not? " –

answer to this is self-evident and does not require further

deliberation.

 

Respects

 

Naga Narayana.

-

 

 

Namaskar!

Personally felt revolted by the question in such a forum. In Gita we talk of

karmayog. If one has done evil in any one of your even hundred or thousand lifes

when we were on earth, obviously the same happens by law of Karma when time is

right by Lord. Even Lord Krishna was not spared of this if one recalls A bow was

shot on his ankle as some hunter had mistaken him for an animal from far. The

person concerned was agahast what happened then Lord Krishna pointed out that

during his incarnation as Lord Ram in earlier Yug he had done the same to I

think one of the sacred trribe of monkeys , I do not recall exact name think

ItsSugrir. In fact Lord Krishna was teaching mankind that none is above law of

karma.In simple lanaguge what one gives comes back to you in some form or other,

good or bad. That's the spiritual look at the problem From humanitarian approach

all possible help to be given to victim to come back to normal and remove the

scars of her traumatic experience, by counselling sessions by lady doctors over

a period of few months, as the victim me relive it and start sweating thinking

of it in sleep and scream.

 

If it is woman who is subject to such a heinous crime, she has every right to

remove the foetus, provided it is before 12 weeks when new life sets in. Before

that it is a mere lump of body flesh.

 

Request that spiritual things be discussed not such things, as it is brining

down the level of decorum of Sacred Gita discussions. Nothing will be gained

spiritually in any way by talking of man's falling moral standards and brute

like attitude, only change will be we will become lower in spirtuality. After

all a man is known by company he keeps. Surely there are more better spiritual

topics than this!! We are nobody to judge others and point fingers at them, as 4

fingers point back to us. We need to improve ourselves looking at every

intention of ours like does it havve traced of moha, lobh krodh, voilence,

rectify oursleves and be fit before we even consider improving others.

 

Gratitude

 

shirin

 

---------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

 

Jai Hanuman

 

How the " mother " was and how the " mother " has now become - in this

Kaliyuga ! Killing own children ! Indeed - words can't express the

anguish of the soul !! ( Mike Bhaiyya ! I used your words- anguish

of soul !)

 

TU KITNI ACHHI HAI ? TU KITNI BHOLI HAI ? PYAARI PYAARI HAI ! O

MAA ! O MAA !

 

How good are you O Mom ! How docile are you O Mom! Oye Lovely Lovely

Jee ! O Mom ! O Mom!!

 

KI YE JO DUNIYA HAI , YE VAN HAI KAANTO KA , TU FULWAARI HAI ! O

MAA ! O MAA !!

 

That what is this world? This is only a forest of thorns ! You are

mass of flowers in it !! O Mother ! O Mother !!

 

APNA NAHIN TUJHE SUKH DUKH KOI , MAIN MUSKAAYA TU MUSKAAI , MAIN

ROYA TU ROYI !!

 

O Mom! You have no concern for your own pleasures and pains at all !

If I smile , you smile ! If I cry , you cry !!

 

MERE HANSANE PE , MERE RONE PE , TU BALIHAARI HAI ! O MAA , O MAA !!

 

You are ever loving - irrespective of whether I smiled or I cried !

You agree to however I am !! O Mom ! O Mom !!

 

MAA BACHON KI JAAN HOTI HAI ! WOH HOTE HAI KISMAT WALE JINKE MAA

HOTI HAI !!

 

A Mother is the very life force of the child. Fortunate are those ,

whose mother lives long !

 

KITNI SHEETAL HAI, KITNI SUNDAR HAI , NYAARI NYAARI HAI ! O MAA , O

MAA !!

 

How calm ! How adorable !! Always exclusive , super exclusive !! O

Mother ! O Mother !!

 

Hey Daddy the Great ! O Mom !! Kindly save us all from such ghastly

crimes !

 

Agreed, O Binanee S, Jee ! Agreed Vyas NB Jee !! Agreed Mahalaxmi

Maiyyaji !!! Agreed Mira Bahenji !!!! Mike Bhaiyya- sitting with

consort??? - how difficult it can become - when BG 18:32 is

operational?? - for both and each one ? Baba ! Where are we going ?

 

KAHAAN JAA RAHA HAI , TU AIYE JAANE WALE ! ANDHERA HAI MAN KAA DIYA

TO JALALE !!

 

Where are you going O Traveller ? There is darkness all around ! Why

don't you burn the light of " CONSCIENCE " within ?

 

May all understand what is way out of BG 18:32 !!!

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

--------------------------

 

Hari Om

 

Khullarji. Here are some slogans

 

* Silent scream of the fetus - what is my fault O Mummy ? What is my

fault O daddy ?

 

* Don't suck life out of me! Save m ! Save me! Have mercy on me ! I

will bring pleasures in your garden! O mummy - I am your daughter

only!

 

 

* Mera kasoor kya hai ?

 

* O mom ! Please give me birth. My own fate will take care of me

thereafter!

 

* O murderers! You will not even get water in future births what to

talk of food !

 

* O parents ! You enjoyed and I get killed! Is this humanity?

 

* Even a witch leaves at least one house unharmed! Don't kill fetus

in the womb ! Even witches don't do that!

 

* Fetus killing - a frightful disrespect to motherhood !

 

* You want to increase production on one hand and kill producer in

the womb itself- what kind of wisdom is this? What kind of

government is this?

 

* Birth control means converting a female into a prostitute !

 

* Control death first and then think of controlling birth !

 

* Fetus killing is resorted by those who neither believe in

Paramatma, nor in prarbdha (destiny) nor in purushartha!

 

* Getting medical test done, finding female fetus in the womb and

killing ! Is this respect to a woman? Is this a way of giving women

equal rights?

 

* O mothers! Don't lose the power of motherhood for ever! Don't kill

your child! Don't become object of pleasure only for men! Don't

become prostitutes!

 

* Kill fetus and become a non fruit bearing tree forever!

 

* Don't be so merciless O parents ! There will be no one left even

to give you a drop of water in future!

 

* Female fetus killing is the surest method of eliminating mothers

from the planet ! In whose womb you shall sleep in the next birth?

 

* Even bitches, witches and vampires do not kill their own children!

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

 

 

---------------------------

My dandavats to all in this forum...

MY heart breaks when I read the post of Prem Kullar. It is so

terrible that the east has taken up the course of following

activities of the west. I have lived in america my entire life, and

although perhaps I am " privileged " in the sense that I own propety,

car, etc.....I am extremely aware that there is no culture here in

America. No deep rooted traditions, no religious coloring of any

particular faith, and no strong bonds in communities. What little I

could offer in this discussion, is simply WHY? WHY? WHY FOLLOW THE

WEST? Though Sri Krsna's love is everywhere, though daily I

encounter beautiful people with loving hearts, they are suffering so

much in this country. The stress of city life is tremendous.....but

in the country there is no money to be made....(I have done both).

THIS COUNTRY IS DOOMED.....there is very little time left for it due

to its atrocious treatment of the cow, due to abortions, and due to

its policies of usurping and controlling resources of other

nations. WHY, WHY, WHY FOLLOW THE WEST? From the mouth of one

who has lived here my entire life, WAKE UP. I have visited India

twice, both times became completely overwhelmed with love for the

Supreme, to a degree that I am unable to express.....will India give

up all it's accumulated piety to become a hellish pit of

impersonalism and selfishness as the west? I pray not. Again, my

heart aches, what can I say, except all glories to your efforts,

Prem....to stop murder. To open the eyes of those who are blind....

 

In the words of Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta in his purport to bhagavad

Gita, " Those who commit such abominable acts will never see the

light of day again. "

So, the chain of karma will continue.....those killing the fetus

will themselves have to take birth in a womb and be aborted, time

and time again, to pay the price.

 

respectfully,

Mahalaksmi Dasi

------------------------------

Raam ! Raam !! Raam!!!

 

Some slogans for Mr Prem Khullar

 

1. Dont kill me in the womb itself - O mother ! O father ! I

will come with my own fate supporting me in this world !!!

 

2. Efforts of increasing agricultural production and controlling

births is like efforts of increasing milk in mother's breasts and

then not allowing conception !!!

 

3. Oh Mom ! Dear Mom !!! Why I should get killed when you enjoyed ?

 

4. O Father ! O Mother !! Throw me in a dust bin after giving birth!

But don't kill me when i am so helpless !!

 

5. Please! Please save me O parents ! I have capacity to bring

pleasures for you!

 

6. What is my fault? What my fault?? If you don't save me, who

will?

 

7. Even the wildest and the cruelest of animals do not kill their

own children!

 

With sincere Pranaams to all genuine Sadhaks! Shame on those who

advocate such ghastly acts ! SHAME !! SHAME !!!

 

Beenani S.

 

------------------------------

Hari Om

 

Let me now address Khullarji's query.

 

Swamiji used to put up a bill board outside His temporary abode

every where that - Those who have done sin of abortion may please

not bring " bhiksha " for me ! " Bhiksha " - alm of food. Swamiji would

eat food brought by 5 houses every day.

 

In Manusmriti - 4/208 , it is stated that

 

BHROONAN GHAVEKSHITAM CHAIV SANSPRISHTAM CHAAPYUDAKYAYA !

PATATRINA VALEEDHAM CHA SHUNA SANSPRISHTAMEVA CHA !!

 

One should not eat food (1) touched by female in periods (2)

touched by a dog (3) partially eaten by a bird (4) seen by (what to

say " touched by " ) one who ever indulged in abortion !

 

Verse referred by Khullarji is in Parashar Smriti 4/20.

 

YATPAPAM BRAHMA HATYAYA DVIGUNAM GARBHPATNE !

PRAYASHCHITAM NA TASYAATI TASYATYAAGO VIDHIYATE

 

In Brahma Vaivat Purana ( Prakrati Khand, Chapter 2) it is stated

that in the beginning of creation, the basic prakrati ( Shri Radha)

threw her fetus into waters. God immediately cursed her - From now

onwards you will never have a child. Not only that, by your part

whatever " divya " females will get created they also shall be without

a child. Thereafter from the tongue of Basic Nature (Shri Radha) -

Goddess Saraswati incarnated. Later on that Basic Nature got split

into 2 parts. From Left body - Goddess Laxmi incarnated. From Right

body " Radha " incarnated. God also became two. From half left body He

became " Chaturbhuj Vishnu " (Four armed Vishnu) and from right part

He became two armed " Krishna " ! Both Laxmi and Saraswati were

childless. Then from the pours of Krishna countless " Gopas "

incarnated. From pours of Shri Radha countless " Gopis " manifested.

My understanding is that Gopis were infertile, childless !

 

In " Vriddha Suryarun Karma Vipaak " Scripture it is stated:

 

PURVE JANUSHI YA NAARI GARBHA GHAAT KARI HYABHOOT!

GARBHAPAATEN DUKHARTA SAATRA JANMANI JAAYATE !! (477/1)

 

A Lady who had aborted in past lives, suffers in this life on

account of being childless!

 

VANDHYEYA YA MAHABHAAG PRICHHATI SWAM PRAYOJANAM!

GARBHAPAATRATA PURVE JANUSHYATRA PHALAM TVIDAM !!

 

If some Lady asks why she is issueless, infertile in this life?

Answer is due to abortion in the past life. ( 659/1; 856/1; 921/1;

1857/1)

 

GARBHAPATAN PAPADHYA BABHOOV PRAGBHAVEANDAJ !

SAATREVA TEN PAAPEN GARBHESTHERYA NA VINDATI !!

 

O Arun ! One who aborts in prior life, can not bear child in present

life ! ( 1187/1)

 

As simple as that !

 

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

-----------------------------

Woman Power!

by TA Ramesh

 

Without Shakti, Siva cannot do any duty in all the worlds;

Without power, no matter can be active in the Universe;

Without soul, human body cannot survive in the world!

 

Without mother, children cannot grow hale and healthy;

Without wife, husband cannot maintain family and children;

Without woman, man cannot love and live in the world!

 

Beauty, intelligence and love are the aspects of personality

That helps women stand unique in the world;

But, so emotional by nature that it's impossible

For a woman to keep secrets in her heart;

And so, women let the cat out of the bag easily!

 

Hence women show the skeleton kept in the cup-board

Long to anyone who moves them most!

That's why taboos and restrictions imposed on women

Are perhaps rigorous and heartless in many religions,

That are, now, slowly removed by social reforms

By great movement leaders in the modern world.

 

Literature is also full of the Power of Women

As the Main Theme everywhere in the world!

Without the beautiful woman, Helen at the center of the story,

How can Homer's Iliad ever exist in the world?

Without the virtuous woman, Sita in Valmiki's Great Epic,

Ramayana can ever be read so long?

 

Thousands of years, by law and religion,

Women are kept as under-dogs to men;

Women are not just the Weaker Vessels,

Without whose encouraging support

Vessels of Tears won't survive in the world;

Without the knowledge, intelligence and support

Of Woman Power, no family

Can sustain, develop and survive!

 

with regards

Dilip Ravindran

----------------------------

 

PRIOR POSTING

Namaste,

 

Manu's verse ' yatra naaryastu pUjyante ramante tatra devatAh' ( the

gods rejoice/ are happy, where the woman is worshipped) is, I feel,

a powerful message to inculcate respect for women at whichever stage

she may be.

 

Shubhamastu

Anuradha Choudry

------------------------------

-Shree Hari_

 

Clarification: I was reflecting on a place where I once lived long

ago, I was not in poverty but I saw much of it. I would never ever

imply that one should hold a dagger, as it were, at peoples throat,

and demand they follow, rules on their personal behavior , it is the

opposite to what I am. Options can be shown to them, not killing.

 

Many people revert to medicines of some sort or another, for various

conditions, and it often means the death of some organism or other.

In reality many are based on herbs, and a vegetable origin.

In passing my preference is homeopathy.

 

If I get or any person gets bitten by a snake around here, then to

the hospital quick smart, for an antidote, not to is death. (why die

if one can prevent it?)

 

Driven by compassion one would like to see people live life in

comfort and happiness, why not?

 

Yes Divine Feminine 'Shakti', (she is universal), has been suppressed

for thousands of years, and the world has become unbalanced, she has

to sit with her consort once more.

 

My thoughts are exhausted on the subject, I will just read on.

 

With Respect and Divine Love,

 

Mike Keenor

--------------------------------

 

Raam Raam Raam

 

Great Suggestion is that either you dont make efforts to remain

healthy, to cure any illnesses OR we are justified in stopping new

births into this world. Either you control death or we shall control

birth. As simple as that. Why you are taking medicines to cure

fever ? If you are taking medicines, then we shall abort the child.

What shall the child do in this planet? Oh No ! Kill him. Modern

societies cant tolerate this non sense of humans coming on this

planet so fast. Where is the space ? Where is housing for them ? Who

will arrange for their food, water, upkeep, maintenance? How costly

are the living now a days ? We want freedom ! We have come on this

planet, and after applying our minds we have concluded that in

modern societies such non sensical obstacles to sensual pleasures is

unwarranted ! Kill them . Stop them from coming to this world. Now

that we have come into this planet, where is the need for any other?

It is these new arrivals that has made this world so bad, and

unlivable. No , Sorry ! We cant let them enter. Kill the fetus.

Simply kill ! All problems are only because of that only ! Kill the

fetus in the womb itself. Suck the life out of it. Let us enjoy. We

never wanted the child. We just wanted to enjoy the human life. From

where this conception hascome ? Oh , dont worry kill the fetus ! We

are modern, we are not orthodox people. If we dont stop human beings

from coming to this world, then what shall be the difference between

us and animals. Animals mate only when there is season for mating.

They have to exercise restraints and disciplines- not the human

beings. Animals are animals only because they mate only when there

is a season. We are not animals. We are human beings. We shall mate

anytime we want - morning evening, day, night, January, April, June

any time, any month. What a fun ! What an obstacle to this fun is

this conception. That is spoil sport. Kill the fetus. After all we

are privileged, we are intelligent. We can invent devices to kill

them anytime. Science is pretty advanced. Vacuum cleaners. Suck the

life out of that creature. What the fetus thought we are so stupid.

Gone are those old concepts of father, mother, protector ! Non

sense. We have mind, intellect, beautiful body. This conception

is undesirable - a simple nuisance! We have thought over it, all

problems are only because of increase in population. From where the

additional income will come? From where we shall feed the children ?

No ! Not Possible!! Our leaders also say so. Entire economy is in

mess only because of this over population. Enjoy mating, but kill

fetus. Where is the need for child here ? Shall we eat ourselves or

get entangled in arranging food for them ? Are we so stupids ? Come

On ! Either you control death or we shall abort !!! We are modern

humans. Kill the fetus. No arguments. Kill ! If you want to live

peacefully - murder ! Or Control Death !

 

Raam Raam Raam !

 

Beenani S

 

------------------------------

Dear Vipra Bandhavaha, evam itare suhridaha,

We must avoid debates and discussion on which modern educated and so

called Western feminist women will have strong view. It is a pity

that they could destroy what they cannot create. See the ten per

cent of married couples who long and yearn for children and are not

blessed so. Think deeply, do not impose your views on others.

Vriddha Divakarosmi Bhoh.

 

------------------------------

Jai Hanuman

 

People often say if the population is not controlled there will be

shortage of eatables on the planet. This poverty , mal nutrition are

only because of population growth. Hence population control is the

answer for all these menaces confronting humanity. Wrong are they!!

Patently wrong ! Absolutely wrong !

 

Taat Shree ( Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj) said that kind of actions

which so called intelligentia advocate to support population

control, kind of sins which are increasingly getting legalised -

what to say eatables and food grains , one will not even get water

as a result .

 

Oh What a pity Jee ! A human being wants to live comfortably and in

order to do that, he wishes/wants to put obstacles in another human

being, in it's being born ! Is that humanity ? That is how you feel

one can bring happiness, order, harmony, pleasure in human life?

Such arguments are in reality a garbage advanced by power hungry

stupid politians to justify mis-management of existing resources and

mislead. Economics !! Sheer Nonsense !

 

Indeed the intellect can get into the spell of what is stated in BG

18:32. This is Kaliyuga Jee. This is how at the last phase of time

cycle, the humans can become. It will worsen in times to come. Ever

heard the term " cannibalism " ? Humans are heading towards the same.

 

Get liberated Jee, Realise Paramatma, O Dear Sadhaks Jee, as fast

as you can. Future will unfold else the circumstances and scenes

which you will never want to see again. Who have been left?. Those

who from Satyuga, to Treta to Dwapar till today have always set

example of BG 18:32. Most of us are in that zone only. Hurry up

Please Jee!

 

See how do they perceive - Hell with your coming on this planet, we

have come first and now we shall not allow you to come ! We will

enjoy the physical relationship, privilege, without letting you

come in Jee. Don't you know who we are Jee? Humans , Humans ! We

are humans !

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

--------------------------

------------------------------

 

Hari Om

 

I am in perfect agreement with Mahalaxmi Dasi and Mike Keenor. Of

course Mira Dass was immaculate as usual, completely relevant and

absolutely correct. Frankly, I can't say so for most of the views of

Mr Naga Narayana. If he wants as a sadhak to know as to why I feel

so , we can discuss briefly through short notes the reasons thereof.

 

Mike- you are right in most of your observations regarding birth

control pills also. That is not bad. But good is copulation timing

and male condoms. Better is " control " over the very desire and the

Best is mating only for giving birth ! ONLY WITH THAT PURPOSE !!

 

Reply of B Sathyanarainji is 100 percent right. No doubt about

that ! Mahalaxmi Dasi's response is one of the best write ups on the

subject , I have ever read.

 

Certainly Sobhanaji. Shame on the males can only be and rightfully

be attributed by females who are 1000 times more able, better and

powerful than males. All powers arise from female - Goddess

Shakti . All glories and happiness in this world arises out of

Goddess Laxmi- again a female. Mother Nature is a female.. You are

entitled to say so ! Sanatan Dharma is in favour of your entitlement

to do so ! My compliments as a sadhak .

 

Operations of males/females so that there is no conception is

extremely bad act. You get disentitled to perform many rituals and

you don't return to God and atmosphoric airs, what was received by

you - for the reasons best known to you only.

 

I have heard this from elders (don't remember if I read somewhere)

that Goddess Mahalaxmi had aborted a child in some human life. Even

after having Lord Naraina (Lord Vishnu) as her husband, she could

never become mother again. As simple as that !!

 

How a man is a man, if he has no powers to become father, has no

reproductive capacity ? Just How? How a woman is a woman if she has

no powers to become mother, has no reproductive capacity ? Just how?

 

But Mike , I really could not understand any relevance of your

reference of over population at the near by place. Really ! If you

mean to say that over population is not desirable and must be

controlled by any one , then I beg to differ with you. We can have a

deliberation on this. Divine deliberation ! Real Satsanga !! Example

setting form of satsanga !

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

----------------------------

 

I agree with you Shobhnaji, thousand percent. Shame on us to keep

treating the women folk with deep rooted disrespect.

 

To others, this is a social issue. And hence does not befit this

forum. Therefore, I desist to respond to the other queries

raised ... Mahabharata and Bhagavadgita are as useful to the society

as to a spiritual aspirant. But … that needs a different forum.

Therefore, let me be brief ...

 

To Dasiji, Vyaasji, Mike and others who have commented on the

feutus's freedom to take life … my question is regarding the freedom

of the person living. Our poor brothern in India has paid heavily on

the rape, violation and enslavement for more than a millenium thanks

to the wrongly preached spiritual values in social life. Again, the

problem is not in the great spiritual values … but, in the

preaching. Bhagavan Vyaasa warns sternly … Na buddhidhedam janayet …

never preach these values … they are only for seekers. Because,

those who do not understand the depth of concepts such as Ahimsa

(non-violence) and Shaanti (peace) would let their natural cowardice

reign their lives. It is the responsibility of a saint to

acknowledge that the world cannot be saintly. Whoever tried to

spread sainthood in the history has achieved nothing but social

fragmentation … sainthood never appeared in humanity so far.

Therefore, if at all spirituality helps, it should let the humans be

just humans first from social perspective.

 

Dasiji feels that the death is not a Godly act while birth is a

Godly act. If their exists a devil against the God, I can only pity

such appreciation of God. Good and bad are our creation in our

illusions. Just because we love birth and hate death, we cannot

project the same ignorance on God. Birth and death are both God's

gifts to us. We should treat both the same way with absolute

respect. If we cannot, at least we should not wield hypocracy to

suit our beliefs.

 

God is not their to protect anybody but has provided everything to

do so oneself. Krishna never fights ... Arjuna has to. If God " had

to " protect, he would have protected the violation of freedom of a

woman in the first place. One who suffers has all the right to

respond to one's own suffering in one's own way. Spirituality cannot

trespass its compassion to preach either way. Such judgment will be

as lopsided as of the Bramhin who tried to interfere with an eagle's

attempt to eat its food, a snake.

 

Vyasji has quoted Karna … the goodness captive in the bad … nothing

but a slave to the bad … committed to serve the bad till death. What

is the use of such goodness? In fact, more harmful to the society!

 

Again, the society should be The Bhima who pulls out the heart of

the beastly violaters enroute. Incidentally, he does not need

Krishna's intervention because Krishna's approval is inherent in all

his actions.

 

Respects.

 

Naga Narayana

 

---------------------------

Namaste

 

DAADU DUNIYA BAAWARI , FIKAR KARE GELI !

ROTI DESI RAMJEE, DOPAARA PELI !!

 

Said Sage Daaduji

 

Mad has gone this world ! Absolutely crazy. It is worrying

unnecessarily out of stupidity. God will provide meals to you before

noon time.

 

Mr Naga Narayana - Worry not ! There is one creator, preserver and

destroyer , called, Paramatma ( Ever heard this name?) who will take

care through Mother Nature about birth, death, fame, illfame,

happiness and sorrow.

 

Said Sage Vashishtha to Bharatji

 

AHO BHARAT BHAAVI PRABAL, BILAKH KAHAT MUNIRAAJ !

HAANI LAABH JEEVAN MARAN, JAS APJAS VIDHI HAATH !!

 

O Bharat ! Destiny is very powerful. Profit, Loss, Death, Birth,

Fame and Ill fame are controlled by Destiny only.

 

Stop giving reasons. Simply dont disturb the Laws of Nature . You

have no rights to do that. What if our fathers also thought in the

similar manner? How we would have been able to become humans then?

Dont we run to a doctor if urine stops ? We are that weak ! Why

should we take responsibility of Creator on our weak shoulders?

Stupidity is that- Isnt it ?

 

HAM EK KHILONE HAIN, EK AISE KHILAADI KE !

JISKO ABHI SADIYON TAK YEH KHEL RACHAANA HAI !!

 

We are toys in the hands of that player, who is yet to continue this

world for centuries and centuries.

 

Chesta Vinod

-----------------------------

Priya Sadhaks

 

Sobhanaji has indeed expressed herself naturally and therefore

powerfully. But only in writing " Shame on you all " ! On balance

there was nothing .

 

Madam ! None is bad here!! Change the vision and you shall start

seeing the ultimate good here ! Try it !

 

Why inflict any shame on any one?

 

At the lotus feet of all of you and of Paramatma

 

MM Purohit

 

 

===============================================================

 

PRIOR POSTING

My dandavats to all in this forum....

 

In regard to the concept of taking pills to prolong health being

" hypocritical " if one is against pills to stop birth......I am

shocked that one with knowledge would dare equate the two concepts.

Doesn't the Supreme Lord appear as Dhanvantari, to give knowledge of

herbs to help human beings? Where is there any reference where the

Supreme Lord would say, " yes, abort this child " ? Anyone can say

anything, but one must analyze according to scripture, if he or she

is to truly benefit the cause of humanity.

Also, I believe it is a myth that there is overpopulation. I

truly believe that mother Bhumi can expand her form, if needed, she

is alive....she is not dead matter. The problem today is

mismanagement of the resources. In the time of Prthu Maharaj,

another incarnation of the Lord mentioned in the Srimad Bhagavatm,

mother earth also withheld fruits and vegetables and grains, as there

was so little sacrifice in the human hearts taking place. On the

threat of Prthu Maharaj, she agreed to produce abundantly. Are

there those who think these stories are simply folk lore?

Again, anyone can say anything, but the laws of material nature

will act, regardless. If I say that the sun will rise in the west,

I can say it every day til I leave this world, but will it happen?

No, it will not. I cannot change the laws of nature. Killing is

sinful, attempting to prevent a soul from entering a womb using any

birth control is sinful, and reactions will come whether one

believes or not. This is the law of karma. Otherwise, if this were

not true, it would stand to reason that there is nothing wrong with

unlimited illicit sexual activity. Yes, just use birth control,

have abortions, enjoy your body all you choose...IS THERE ANYONE WHO

CAN SUPPORT THIS TYPE OF MENTALITY FROM A RELIGIOUS OR DEVOTION TO

GOD STAND-POINT? I don't believe it is possible.

Also, it may be true that the perpetrator of rape is a

rascal....but a woman cannot justify her act of murdering an unborn

child merely because a male chose to act sinfully. The two sins do

not balance each other out. Women must return to their role of

being protectors of society, of righteousness...with no " attitude "

of hatred toward the ignorance of males, otherwise the love and grace

of Laksmi will never again flow abundantly on this planet.

The " blame game " should not be for those of saintly character.

 

Respectfully submitted,

Mahalaksmmi Dasi

-------------------------------

-Shree Hari-

I found the comments by Naga Narayana and Meera Das absorbing, the

full spectrum as it were.

OK there was a program on TV here, that showed an abortion, not

simulated, the real thing, the apparatus used was a sort of vacuum

device the sucked the life from the womb.

As I watched this, I experienced something unusual, I had no

emotions, it was as if I were stone, no anger no horror, I was in the

presence of demonic evil, somehow my emotions retreated, my defenses

were up, sometimes evil can be so great it seems, that words and

reactions have no place.

What I saw, I never want to see again,.

Preventing conception, is not killing of life, there is timing of

copulation, condoms, barriers, and birth control pills; they do not

abort, I personally think that the birth control pill may have

dangers, as it interferes with normal bodily functions.

However if the pill prevents the resort to abortion, then so be it.

If a woman is raped, the fetus is not the intruder, the brute who

raped her is. Punish him by the full force of the law, not the fetus.

(I understand in some countries, it's almost impossible to be charged

with rape, and the victims can be punished, how terrible!)

 

I have personally witnessed, the stinking mire that over population,

poverty, animals and humans living in close proximity, the over

powering smell of camels, goats , and sewage, and what it does to

people.

 

So on the subject of abortion, I see strength in Meera Das point of

view, and on birth control, I think Naga Narayana, has sound

arguments.

 

With Respect and Divine Love.

 

Mike Keenor

------------------------------

What about the karma of the men who rape? All the views expressed

here do not take into account that women are human beings, have

feelings and have the right to perhaps cleanse themselves of the

sins committed by men. Abortion is the only way to cleanse such sin

committed by men, who are " protectors " and hide behind religious

views.

 

Shame on all of you.

Shobhna S. Kumar

-------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Hari Om

 

Under no circumstance, even if the circumstance is life

threatening - the sin of abortion should not be done.

Any happenning in our life is outcome of our own karma meted out by

God's laws through nature. Law of Karma is precise and accurate in

its operation.

 

Every incidence has kripa (benevolence) of God hidden in it. Every

adverse incident provides you an opportunity to get closer to God by

right conduct and right utilisation of given circumstance. The human

birth has not been given for petty comforts and worldly pleasures.

It is a challenging, sadhan ( striving for God Realisation) form of

life. The austerity resulting from given adverse circumstances is

God sent/willed as per our own prior deeds.One must take such God

sent austerities as an opportunity for spiritual advancement. One

must perceive the human life as a special form of life- not to enjoy

worldly pleasures but to happily do one's duty without caring for

one's right and another's duty. Job is already on hand, of giving

birth to the innocent child, the duty is already on hand. The

aggrieved should take it so, give birth to the child, and thereafter

she may handover the child to orphanage etc.

 

One must be " careful in " doing " , and happy in " happening "

(result) " . No circumstance can force you to commit new sins.

 

Sanatan Dharma Scriptures deal with every type of circumstance.

Similar circumstance was faced by Kunti also. Kunti was mother of

Karna conceived when she was unmarried through Sun. She gave birth

to the child and silently surrendered the child to the mother

nature. Karna went on to be a part of history forever. Karna earned

admiration of all , including from Lord Krishna. He was one of the

greatest philanthropist the Indian soil has ever produced. He

redefined the art of giving/donating/ renunciation. He was " tyaag

murti " . Karna was the eldest son of Kunti- elder than

Yuddhister/Bhim/Arjuna/Nakul/Sahdev.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

--------------------------

HELLO SIR,

Your own conscience is the best guide. follow it. In so doing see

that your action does not harm the other person. Follow the maxim "

do unto others what you expect from others " That's what the Mahatma

Gandhi said, " I look to my inner self for guidance when I am in

trouble " . So said Lord Buddha too.

Ramachander Homma

--------------------------

Dear Sadaks,

If a lady conceives, it is not her wish or effort. Many women even

after marriage do not concieve. Why? The child to be born is

predecided by the Karma of that soul. In certain cases the child

gets aborted naturally, which is no way connected with anybody or

Sin.

But to abort a child is wrong. The cause is abortion and the effect

is the lady who aborted the child, will have rebirth as lady who

will have no issues (children). This lady who aborted can even be a

tree in her next birth, where the tree does not yield fruits. The

rebirth depends on once Paapas (sins) and Puniyas (virtues).

Referance Garbopanashid.

B.Sathyanarayan

--------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

I resonate totally with the views expressed by Naga Narayanji on

this subject.

No action in itself is right or wrong without regard to

circumstances surrounding it.

An action such as abortion may be right in one set of circumstances

and wrong in another set of circumstances. In otherwords, actions

are not inherently right or wrong.

There are many examples in daily life where we can see this to be

true.

I think that right action comes to one who is steadfast on the path

of righteousness (dharma), and seeks all decisions from the Totality

of Being(THAT) and never as an individual! In such cases interest of

all parties involved in actions are duly considered by THAT. Such

actions are God taking actions through people for people.

Namaskaras........Pratap Bhatt

 

--------------------------

 

PRIOR POSTING

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

As our scriptures says - if we believe that we are the Atma (Soul,

Spirit, Individual Consciousness), and if we also believe that human

life is the rarest form of birth (1 of 8.4 million species in this

Universe), and that only in this human form of life, one can attain

freedom from all bondages, one can realize their true nature, one

can attain salvation, one can realize eternal bliss, one can develop

love of God… etc., then common sense says that what Swamiji says is

without any doubt to be accepted - i.e. we have no right to stop

the evolution of a Soul, by creating roadblocks in it's evolution

cycle. This roadblock that we place on another souls' progress, to

not allow it an opportunity for salvation, will definitely have it's

consequences and is a grave sin. Most of the times, we sin due to

desire for our own happiness, self protection, comforts, betterment,

selfish reasons, and if we look at it from that perspective, also

the reason for abortions are also mostly for the same reasons, for a

little convenience and happiness, we are destroying another life,

and not allowing it to be born as a human, a soul that could have

realized the Self / God, and attain salvation etc.

 

Swamiji has said it is briefly addressed in Gita, under demoniac

tendencies. Gita 16:9 " Prabhavantyu grakarmaanah kshayaaya

jagatohitaah. " " Not believing in the eternal soul, the demoniac

natured appear as enemies of the world, for its destruction. " Gita

16:9

Unknowingly we destroy and kill helpless lives, and are hoping the

we will be benefited. How can we be benefited? How can we attain

salvation?

" Jaan-jaanker mook, asamarth jivon ki hatyaa karte ho aur caahete ho

ki hamaaraa bhallaa ho jaaye; kaise ho jaayegaa? kalyaan kaise ho

jaayegaa ?

 

For their selfish motives, such demoniac people indulge in violence,

murder and usurpation etc., without thinking of the pain, which they

inflict upon others.

" Dharmasarvasva suno, aur sunker dhaaran kar lo. Jo aacharan apnese

pratikool ho, usko dusero ke prati mat karo. "

 

Looking at a broader more Universal perspective, who truly takes

care of the 8.4 millions species? Do we? What arrogance to think

that we alone have the right and the burden of responsibility for

that conceived fetus? In many countries, one has to wait for years

and pay a huge amount, to adopt a child. Our ego and selfishness is

causing us to not give this opportunity to another soul and to

instead sin.

 

Not only that, many women who visited Swamiji after having undergone

several abortions, found their bodies to be significantly weakened,

undergoing several irreversible health problems. (I am truly

unaware of the medical and health implications, as this is based

only on experiences / problems that women shared with Swamiji).

 

After listening to Swamiji / reading his thoughts from books for a

number of years, after listening to the way He responded to question

and answers, there was never a question that he could not answer to

one's satisfaction. He had thought about everything he shared,

deeply for a long time, before he even uttered a word or stated

something firmly. In my opinion, Swamiji and all the major

religions of the world that believe in pro-life cannot be wrong!

 

Hope this helps.

Meera Das

Ram Ram

-------------------------------

Sanity and Sanctity of Birth-Control and Abortion

 

Many religions are committed to the propaganda of the idea of anti-

abortion and anti-birth-control strongly even in the so-called

advanced societies such as West. I strongly advocate that this is an

extremely lopsided vision from both social as well as natural

persepctives. By the way, spirituality has nothing to do with it!

 

We hear a lot like " birth is God's Grace and hence we should not

intefere; any such intereference is the greed, selfishness and

arrogance of humans against God's Grace " . I agree with it completely

ONLY IF it is also appreciated in tandem that " death is also God's

Grace and hence we should not interfere with that as well " . Death is

part of the creation as much as the birth. Is it OK to exercise our

ego to interfere with THAT when we are trying all we could do to

avoid/postpone the death? Isn't it the same greed and arrogance in

action in this case as well? Are we not disgracing ourselves by not

believing God's will in our death??

 

My suggestion to the birth-promoters is, " do not take a single pill

to interfere with God's will in the deseases, aging as well as in

death. Then, you are entitled to claim that one should not

interefere with God's will. " Taking all medicinal help to promote

our survival rate and life span on one hand and rejecting the same

for birth control on the other hand is hypocracy. Such attitude is

utterly (1) anti-nature resulting in lopsided population growth of

one single species on this earth; and (2) anti-society resulting in

undue stress of life demands overwhelming the resources. As far as

death control is excercised, one should allow the birth control to

balance the act in any soceity. That is social sanity and that is

natural sanctity.

 

Again, promoting one's material life on this earth is not at all the

agenda of Bhagavad Gita. The agenda is to cleanse the life we have

already taken … to learn how to live it well and how to leave it as

well. That does not remove any of our social responsibilities and

natural obligations. One can get liberated from the social

responsibilities by accepting the nature – birth and death alike. On

the other hand, one cannot get liberated from the natural

obligations till one lives.

 

Also, abusing the spiritual texts for social promotion is incorrect

and can lead to become frantically religious and religiously

fanatic. Bhagavaan Vyaasa advocates to never preach spirituality to

one who cannot appreciate it for one with half-baked knowledge will

lead to natural catastrophies such as population explosion which

eventually culminates in social catastrophies such as wars.

 

Na buddhibhedam janayet agnyaanaam karmasanginaam |

Joshayet sarva karmaani vidvaanyuktassamaacharan ||

 

For social issues such as abortion one should adapt common sense and

social awareness that reflects the circumstantial reality. If the

woman is forced to bear a feutus against her will, she has all the

rights to terminate the same. I request the same preachers to catch

hold of the male beasts that cause such distress in the fisrt place

and terminate them instead. Nobody has any right to interfere in

this matter when one cannot share the burden of the socio-economical

implications let alone the physio-psychological distress imposed

upon the victim. Why should an innocent woman suffer because of a

beastly male? Society should be The Bhima who pulls out the heart of

such beasts enroute. Incidentally, he does not need Krishna's

intervention because Krishna's approval is inherent in all his

actions.

 

Respects.

 

Naga Narayana

------------------------------

Dear Sir ,

 

You mentioned the shloka:

" Yat paapam brahmahattyaa dvigunam garbhapaatane; Praayashchitam ne

tasyaasti tatsyaasyaago vidhiyate " (Parasharsmriti 4:20).

 

Please let me know if you know any more details about this Shloka.

 

I am planning to put up boards with slogan in the villages with this

verse picture of Lord Krishna and Radha and duly translated thus :

 

BRUNE HATYA JO KARE HOGA MAHAAPAP

VIDHATA KA USSKO LAGEGA BHANKAR SHRAAP.

 

Any idea of better slogan? or any other thoughts on this?

 

Prem Khullar

-------------------------------

 

PRIOR POSTING

Hare Krishna

 

Answer to Question 1

 

Prashantji, I am pasting the answer of your question from Swamiji's

book " Sadhan-Sudha-Sindhu " page 960.

 

Q. If it becomes compulsory for woman to abort the baby due to an

infection, then what should she do?

 

A. She will definitely incur the sin of abortion. For protecting

woman people abort the baby but this should not be done. What has to

happen will indeed happen. If the woman has to die then even after

abortion she will die. If she is destined to live longer then she

will not die even if she chooses not to abort. Whatever may be the

cause of death, it will only arrive when the time is up. So abortion

should never be done.

 

Q. Should abortion be carried out in case an unmarried woman becomes

pregnant?

 

A. That boy and girl should marry who had pre-marital sex. If the

marriage is not possible then also abortion should not be done. The

girl should nurture that child and give him/her to an orphanage or

give it to someone who wants to adopt a child.

 

If a woman is raped then the rapist will incur terrible sin. If the

woman has derived pleasure from that then she will also incur sin.

All sins emanate from sensual desire. So the amount of sin will be

in direct proportion with the pleasure derived by that woman. If the

woman did not take any pleasure then she will not incur sin.

 

If an unmarried woman is pregnant then her parents will also incur

sin for their carelessness. It is a must for parents that they take

utmost care of their daughter and not give her excessive

independence.

 

Q. If society comes to know about it then she will become infamous

and no one will marry her?

 

A. After committing sin one has to bear defamation. Abortion,

suicide and running from home. In comparison to these three sins,

it's better to bear the defamation. If no one is willing to marry

her then she should reside in her father's house and spend her life

in worshipping God. This will be penance for her which will destroy

her sins.

 

Q. If a married woman is raped and she becomes pregnant then what

should be done?

 

A. It is better for her to be quiet. If husband comes to know about

it then he should also remain quiet. The couple's slience is best

for them. In reality, one should always be attentive from the

beginning so that such kind of situations do not arise. My

suggestion is not for abortion because it is an ultimate sin

(MahaPaap).

 

Answer to Question 2

 

Shri Khullarji, you are indeed doing great social service by

rescuing women from committing sins like abortion etc. This society

needs people like you.

 

Gita doesn't specifically mention about abortion. It strikes the

root of sin i.e. desire and God has spoken at length on it. Read

Gita (3-36, 37 and 16-21, 23, 24)

 

Premji, Gitapress has published 2 books.

 

Matrishakti Ka Ghor Apman (Code 420)

Desh Ki Vartaman Dash Aur Uska Parinam (Code 617)

Check the details at www.gitapress.org. You can use these 2 books

for your purpose.

 

These 2 books are also included in a 1000 page book Sadhan-Sudha-

Sindhu (Code 465). It is a compilation of more than 40 books of

Swamiji's teachings.

 

Thanks,

 

Hare Krishna

Varun P. Paprunia

-------------------------------

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

From Gita Talk Moderator:

 

" Sadhan, Sudha, Sindhu " in Hindi by Swami Ramsukhdasji, can be

viewed online for free at:

 

http://www.swamiramsukhdasji.org/swamijibooks/pustak/pustak1/html/sad

hansudhasindhu/main.html

Ram Ram

 

-------------------------------

:Shree Hari:

Ram Ram

 

26th September, 2008, Friday

Ashwin Krishna Dvaadashi, Vikram Samvat 2065, Shukravar

 

" Mana jaane sab baat, jaan boojh avaguna kare

kyon chaahat kusalaat, ker deepak koonye pade. "

 

At present times such terrible and fearsome sins are taking place,

that simply by listening, one's hair stands on ends, eyes become

filled with tears, and heart is deeply moved ! Ram Ram Ram, what

terrible unjustice, what fearsome sins are taking place, but your

attention is not going there at all ! Human body is said to be the

rarest of all all forms of life -

" Durlabho maanushyo deho dehinaam shunabhangurah " (Srimad Bhagavat

11:2:29)

" Labdhvaa sudurlabhmidam bahusambhvaante,

maanushyamarthdamnityampeeh dheerah " (Srimad Bhagavat 11:9:29)

" bade bhaag maanushya tanu paava. Sur durlabh sab granthnhi

gaava. " (Manas 7:43:7)

 

Such a rare human body, is being destroyed at the very beginning.

It is being cut up along with the jeev, and this is such a great

offense, it is such injustice, it is a terrible sin! My mind feels

immense pain, it is feeling great distress, but what to do! The

human body by which one can realize God, to not allow that human

body to even be born, and to destroy it, it is the ultimate sin !

To not allow some soul the opportunity to receive a human body, to

not allow that human body to even be born, to take medication from

the beginning and destroy it, through abortion or any other means.

One has stooped so low - not only to think about going to hell

themselves, but at the same time not even allowing another soul the

opportunity for upliftment, for benediction ! Now what is one to

do? Who to share this with? And who will listen to my point? Is

there no one listening ?

 

For ascetics it has been written in the scriptures to not travel

much during " Chaturmaas " (four months in a year during the rains).

Because during these month, due to the rains, every seed grows into

a sappling, which later grows into a tree. By extensive traveling,

walking, these seedlings come under the feet and are destroyed.

Therefore during this four month period, the ascetics do not walk

and roam around much, so that unknowingly no violence is done to any

life form. In Bhagavat it has been said, that if you wish to gain

victory over violence, then reduce the movement of the body -

" hinsaa kaayaadhyaneehayaa. " (Bhagavat 7:15:23). When there is

so much thought put into non-violence around immovable things, then

what to speak on the subject of movable beings? But nowadays, the

best of all movable life forms, better than even the devatas, the

human body, is being contemplated for destruction, what a state of

affairs we are in ! (to be continued)

 

From " Saadhan, Sudhaa, Sindhu " pg 946 in Hindi by Swami Ramsukhdasji

 

For full online discourses in Hindi, please visit Swami

Ramsukhdasji's website. http://www.swamiramsukhdasji.org

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QUESTION 1: If raped, the fact is the baby formed is not at fault.

One does not have the right to kill a child just because of that

fact. What would be such a case when rape occurs and the child is

aborted?

QUESTION 2: Paaraashersmriti - " Yat paapam brahmahattyaa

dvigunam garbhapaatane; Praayashchitam ne tasyaasti tatsyaasyaago

vidhiyate " – where to find this reference?

QUESTION 3: Does Gita make any reference to abortion?

QUESTION 4: Please provide helpful slogans for Bill-boards.

QUESTION 5: Please also elaborate on sins accumulated by males

responsible for the rape?

 

--------------------------------

 

NEW POSTING

 

-Shree Hari-

 

I thought I would write down a few words that came to me when

reflecting on such a diabolical thing. Prem Khullarji, I am truly

sorry I do not have the knowledge to help with the sacred scriptures.

It is my absolute desire that Bhagwan will guide you, and bless you.

All I can do is bow my head in sorrow.

 

Do not murder me mumma dear.

I have joy to give, and laughter to give,

loving arms to embrace you.

Please do not make a silent space.

Mumma, I implore you.

 

With Respect and Divine Love,

 

Mike Keenor

------------------------------

 

Raam Raam Raam

 

Vandanaji's message was really soul toching and so was of Shirin.

If we can understand a simple fact that human life is not given to

us for any enjoyment or pleasures and that this life is a " KARMA

YONI' or " SADHAN YONI " where you have to do your duties only- the

entire discussion gets summed up there. If we can even understand

that this entire creation is a " lila of God " the thorn of

dissatisfaction felt by females gets removed. If we can understand

and appreciate the fact that there is one accurate and precise Law

of Karma in operation in this world , a Law which is blind, ruthless

but just and equitable, a law which is governing the the entire

humanity, then we shall understand as to why one is given the birth

as a male or female , or as to why it is the duty of female to

protect the fetus. We are in fact considering the Laws made by

Paramatma and are finding faults with each other. Males are not

happy with females and vice versa. We dont even resist from finding

faults with the creation and the creator. IF ONLY WE BELIEVE EITHER

IN PARAMATMA, OR IN PURUSHARTHA OR IN PRABDHA- such bitterness shall

not arise. But we are looking at the world as REAL, as a PLEASURE

GIVING CREATION and hence this state of affairs. Why blame males ?

Some body has to conceive. What if child becomes parentless on the

day 1? Does it not happen? What if another catastrophe occurs ?

UNLESS WE BELIEVE AND ACCEPT THAT THIS WORLD IS A MIRAGE/DREAM/LILA

OF GOD and our role is to play our duties diligently and realise

Paramatma - aeons will pass but we shall be no where near the

PEACE !!! If some female has been wronged, raped - she has not

incurred any sin. The male has incurred sin. Only when she because

someone has done injustice to her, does the same thing with another

innocent soul- she sins, not before. Hence -Vandanaji -scriptures

advice females against abortion.

 

Females can draw the solace from the fact that the brute males shall

not be spared similarly from the wrongs done to females. Law of

Karma will hit them more brutally. There is no need of quoting

scriptures to substantiate that. It goes without saying. When our

role is to do our own DUTY only - arising out of whatever

circumstances Law of Karma/Paramatma/Mother Nature has presented to

us in this otherwise DUKHALAYAM ASHASHWATHAM - then what remains to

be the issue ? ACCEPT THE CIRCUMSTANCES AS IT IS, DO YOUR DUTY, DONT

LOOK AT OTHER'S DUTY, REALISE GOD and ENJOY THE COMPANY OF PARAMATMA

FOREVER. Leave these worldly brutes, preachers, to their own fate.

GET YOURSELF OUT OF IT. That is all

 

Pranaam to all sadhaks

 

Beenani S

 

---------------------------

My dandavats to all in this forum,

In response to the questions posed below, I would like to attempt to

address point by point the suggestions made by our sadhak, Naga

Narayan.

 

Please explain, how one can deal with the issue of life/death in an

impersonal way? (as you have begun your presentation saying, " I

have to be pragmatic and impersonal..... " ) Is this truly something

that makes any sense? How does one discuss the issue of a mother

killing her child in an admittedly impersonal way? Something is

very wrong here, and I am not saying this to find fault. Please,

kindly ask yourself this question, How is it possible to state, " I

will deal with this issue in an impersonal way " ....when the very

nature of the subject is extremely personal, so much so that many

woman cannot live without their child? How can a man know the grief

and pain and heartache a mother would feel when her child is taken

away? Only if he is extremely mature on an emotional level, having

undergone very deep growth either in this life or previous, will he

be ALLOWED to know this pain. It is not an easy thing for a man to

know the depth of a womans' pain.

 

In the story of Prahlad Maharaj, we learn from the Srimad

Bhagavatam that the demigods had made a decision to arrest the

mother of Prahlad, while he was still in the womb, and when the

child was born, to kill him. Because his father, a terrible demon,

was performing austerities by which to conquer over the demigods,

and the fearful demigods were anxious that the child within the womb

would be an even greater demon. The great sage, Narada Muni,

arrived on the scene, and chastised the fearful demigods,

saying, " Even if you wanted to kill this child, you would not be

able to. He is a great devotee of the Lord " . Narada then took the

mother to his ashram, and constantly uttered Hari Katha, which was

heard by the embryo. When Prahlad was developing as a child, he is

renowned for instructing his school friends to sing the glories of

Lord Krsna, to put devotion before everything.

 

What right do any of us have to say what will be the character of

any given child? Or what will be it's destiny after leaving the

womb of the mother? Certainly, if you walk up to orphan's in the

street, very few will say, " Yes, we would prefer to have died. "

 

You speak of the child within the womb not having a decent father.

This is certainly tragic, but isn't it more tragic for someone to

say, " Child, you should be dead rather than live without the love of

your father " . I personally cannot comprehend this logic. Isn't the

Supreme Lord the father of all? Isn't he able to manifest in so

many, various forms, to help the living entities in this world? I

can speak from personal experience, if the child has one good

parent, either mother or father, they can conquer. They can go on

to achieve wonderful things.

 

There is a statement below, " the questions that would bother me if I

impose my personal agenda of anti-abortion are many … Well, my

dear Prabhu....when did anyone's presentation of defending the

rights of an unborn fetus become " my personal agenda " ? Speaking the

truth, that murder is sinful, is never, never, never going to become

any individual's personal agenda. It is crystal clear who actually

has a personal agenda.

 

What is the point of this forum? For anyone to give their

own " personal agenda " ? No. It is to elucidate, in regard to the

teachings of the ancient scriptures, what is proper conduct for

human beings.

 

I AM NOT ONE TO BLINDLY FOLLOW ANY TEACHINGS. IT IS NOT ONLY IN

AMERICA THAT A WOMAN HAS THE RIGHT TO BE LOVING, TO BE RESPECTED, TO

BE PROUD OF THE CONCEPT OF " I AM A MOTHER'. All women have this

right, and for any man to try to justify a woman killing her child,

is to attempt to strip her of everything that is precious to the

concept of not just a woman, but also that of a mother. What

memories are you speaking of, that she will have if the child is

born? You did not mention the horrendous guilt and memories she

would have after killing her child? Why not mention those alongside

the other.

 

Certainly men these days need to look at their traditional

roles, and what gives SOME of them the sense that women are merely

objects of their pleasure. To those men, my prayers, that you may

somehow become educated...become wise...go beyond your inflated,

pompous ego, and understand that the women of the world who truly

seek to be righteous, to be motherly, to be beautiful.....are what

will save this planet. I do not speak of all " women " .....there are

souls in both categories, of men and women, who are selfish,

destructive to themselves and others, and unable to uplift

themselves. Only our prayers for their benefit.....

 

In concluding, please allow me to examine one last paragraph.....

How correct is it on my part to insist the woman to forget that she

is also a human being entitled equally to liberty of actions and

freedom of thoughts just like me? Is it not that such victims should

be given more freedom to express themselves? … as they truly want?

 

Is this the words of a male " women's libber " ? As they were called

back in the seventies and eighties? Where does " entitled equally

to liberty of action and freedom of thought " enter into the picture

of the life of one who is dedicated to spiritual growth? Whether

male or female, if an individual studies the Gita and other sacred

teachings, even if he/she is not HIndu, still there is acceptance of

a path of religious or proper conduct. One must accept that various

courses of action have to be abandoned. Meat eating is not

conducive to spiritual life. Nor is intoxication, illicit sexual

relations, gambling, or killing of unborn babies. Regardless of how

they entered into the womb. This goes for men, as well as women.

I remember back in 1980, when I was first married, there was an

Indian doctor in Colorado where I was living in my first year of

marriage. He quit his job at the hospital, because he was

instructed to perform an abortion. He could not do it, as he had

some understanding, that, " I am NOT entitled equally to liberty of

action " . His thought was, " I am bound by the teachings of my

superiors, of my culture " . When one desires to grow in love for the

supreme, he or she does not stop thinking, feeling, expressing, but

still there is a narrow path to follow. If one wanders from that

path, he or she will be eaten by the tigers of material enjoyment.

So, suit yourselves, dear readers, if you choose to demand " freedom

of thought " , in the sense that " anything goes " . Karma will continue

to flow, whether we declare we are free of it or not. I can boldly

place my hand in a blazing fire, declaring, " I will not be burnt! "

but guess what? I will be horribly burnt. And that is not blind

religious dogma, it is merely the truth.

 

respectfully submitted, Mahalaksmi DAsi

---------------------------

Nobody likes to abort. But abortion is common these days to prevent

unwanted births due to failure of family planning. To bring religion

into it is silly because otherwise each woman would produce 20

children and the world would come to an end.

 

Hari Shanker Deo

---------------------------

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

We all become despondent like Arjuna over the course of this

spiritual journey, yet if we hear Sri Krishna's message to the

despondent Arjuna, the ultimate victory is only in following dharma,

whether it be rape or any other situation.

 

Human birth is RAREST and BEST form of all births, (1 of 8.4 million

species), and the ONLY birth where salvation is possible, therefore

to destroy at inception ??? We don't know the potential of that

Soul at inception. He / she could become one of the greatest

Saints !! a Mahatma ! and not to even give it a chance? can that

make any sense from a dharmic perspective?

 

To reiterate / summarize Varun Paprunia has stated Swamiji's

response on tough issue such as rape. Please re-read it. To

summarize some key points -

 

1) Rapist will incur terrible sin, and even woman too if she derived

pleasure.

2) Woman who aborts will definitely incur the sin of abortion.

Swamiji goes so far as to say, not to abort even if life of woman is

in danger, therefore aborting after rape is out of the question.

3) If raped women, becomes pregnant, best to give birth, nuture if

possible, if not turn over for adoption.

4) If unmarried becomes pregnant, it is better to bear the

defamation for committed sin than abortion, suicide or running from

home.

 

Swamiji's article " Abortion - Worst of All Sins " pg 990 - Saadhan,

Sudha, Sindhu in Hindi, is a must read for all and any one in this

dilemma. It is on a Video called " Silent Scream " by Dr. Nathenson,

who out of curiosity had take the ultrasound video of the entire

abortion procedure. However after watching that video, neither the

doctor who aborted, nor Dr. Nathenson, ever again returned back to

their clinic. I have the English translation, if there is interest I

could post.

 

Meera Das

Ram Ram

 

---------------------------

 

PRIOR POSTING

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

I have been a member of this group from the past few months

and have been quite influenced by the thoughts expressed by sadhaks.

But I am surprised to see that blame of abortions has been laid only

on the women. I think body of the female is involved but their male

counterparts are also equally responsible for the sin. why the

learned and respected sadhaks are counting sins that will be upon

the female involved in the sin. As I said physical body of the

female is involved and as I have learned form this sat sang only

that body is unreal and nothing it is the soul that is real. I

think the soul of their male counterparts should be equally

responsible for the sin. Can all these learned people who have read

so many scriptures also count the sins that would be upon the males

to discourage them from such acts. I think if the males desist from

misusing female body and are forthcoming in having responsibilities

of the child no woman on earth would like to abort.

 

VANDANA

---------------------------

NOTE: My response had to be lengthy ... pl. wield patience to

examine the same ... Apologies ... Naga.

 

About abortion, its insanity and its sanity

===========================================

 

I am unable to contain myself with this burning social issue on

which enormous confusion is looming around from ages. I decided not

to pursue this further … but, could not help but to get back.

 

There has been considerable debate on the issue of abortion here.

Considerable emotions are thrown in as well. It is good to know that

there are so many souls sensitive enough on the serenity of life.

 

OF COURSE, ABORTION IS A HIDEOUSLY PAINFUL CONCEPT AND A HEINOUS

REALITY TO ANY SANE PERSON.

 

It is not acceptable to me in person as well! The true question here

is, should it not be acceptable at any cost? I have to be pragmatic

and impersonal to address such a grave question.

 

FYI, the burning question is,

 

" Whether a raped woman has right NOT to bear the resultant feutus? "

 

NOT, " Whether abortion is good or not? "

 

I request you all to review your opinions with this in mind. When I

uttered what I did, I put myself in such a woman's position and felt

what it would be like in meditation. If it helps, put yourselves or

your beloved ones in such a position and then think about such

burning questions. Blindly quoting scriptures cannot resolve social

issues. Resonance with the problems with utter transparency can

alone bring resolution to such issues. Therefore, I again urge you

all … put yourselves and/or your beloved ones in such a woman's

condition … and then think. PLEASE.

 

The questions that would bother me if I impose my personal agenda of

anti-abortion are many …

 

How correct is it on my part to insist the woman to forget that she

is also a human being entitled equally to liberty of actions and

freedom of thoughts just like me? Is it not that such victims should

be given more freedom to express themselves? … as they truly want?

 

How correct is it to insist that violation of her core existence is

nothing when compared to some values that I belieive in, whatsoever

it is?

 

Suppose the woman listens and bears the child. She is obviously

tormented by the memory of her violation all through as the feutus

as well as the future child keeps this torment alive by keeping the

memories alive … how can she conduct herself as a mother with joyous

love toward the child when she herself is tormented?

 

How can any value I preach replace her torment? Nobody here seems to

be bothered about what to do the bastard who violated her! All are

throwing stones of religious insistence on the poor woman who is

already suffering from her misfortune!! What difefrence is there

between ones who physically kill such innocent victims with stones

and the ones who are throwing stones of guilt to kill her

psychologically?

 

On the other hand, the child who missed the true love and compassion

of a mother … can my religious insistance take responsibility for

such children's welfare? Can anything, even god, replace the joyous

love of a mother?

 

Suppose the child was born … there is no father … after all, how can

a rapist be a father? Even if he takes such a role, it is worse than

not having one … Have you ever considered the fate of a father-less

child? Can anything such as religion replace a father to a child?

 

What rights do we have to impose motherhood on a woman who is not

ready?

 

What rights do we have to deceive the child off its mother's joyous

love?

 

What rights do we have to dismiss the heavenly affection of a father

to such a child?

 

Afterall, if a child grows in such anarchical circumstances … what

person would it turn out to be? … a depressed vegetable, a synical

contortionist or a cruel criminal … what rights do we have have to

impose such a tax on the rest of the soceity?

 

I have not touched upon many smaller, but yet burningly real, issues

… Who will bear the econmoc burden of supporting the unfortunate

mother and the fatherless child? Who will bear the social burden of

keeping the unfortunate woman and her child happy? Is it worth being

an orphan struggling for a mouthful on the streets? I can not answer

this … an orphan can and should!

 

It is OK … the woman gave birth to a child … what about the rest of

her life? Who will marry her? If not, her whole womanhood is wasted

… in our own terms, it is a bigger sin that she is not bearing

children anymore … unless the religion summons her to keep

reproducing children the same way!!! Should it?

 

After all what use was there by the honourable religion's

intervention in such personal issues? Could it make the woman happy?

Could it make the child happy? Could it contribute to soceity's

health anyway?

 

FINALLY, CAN MY IDEOLOGY OF ANTI-ABORTION SUPERCEDE ALL THE

CONSEQUENTIAL SOCIAL CALAMITIES?

 

Answers to such subtle questions are always circumstantial. The

soceity is ever dynamic and keeps changing its value structure.

Accordingly social solutions should evolve to keep the soceity as

well as its elements in in its healthy dynamic equilibrium.

Reference to scriptures is valuable only if it is interpreted with

the circumstantial sanity in mind. For example, one might have

realized god ... it does not mean that the victim is also god-

realized. One should get into the victim's shoes to experience the

agony and search for the solution there. That requires the thinkers

of the soceity to resonate with the issue. As a spiritual seeker I

accept the highest degree of social responsibility Bhagavan Vyaasa

instructs me with:

 

Yadyadaacharati shreshthastattadev'taro janaah |

Sa yatpramaanam kuru te lokaastadanuvartate ||

 

Because others are probably gullible to just take the advise from

an " apparently intelligent source " … as a spiritual seeker I need to

consider the background of the soceity thoroughly without pushing my

personal ideologies …

 

Therefore … I request you all to put yourselves in the spot,

meditate on the issue ... and, then deliberate. PLEASE.

 

AGAIN, the question is, " Whether a raped woman has right NOT to bear

the resultant feutus? " This question does not raise if she is happy

to bear it on her own.

 

AND, the question is NOT, " Whether abortion is good or not? " –

answer to this is self-evident and does not require further

deliberation.

 

Respects

 

Naga Narayana.

-

 

 

Namaskar!

Personally felt revolted by the question in such a forum. In Gita we

talk of

karmayog. If one has done evil in any one of your even hundred or

thousand lifes

when we were on earth, obviously the same happens by law of Karma

when time is

right by Lord. Even Lord Krishna was not spared of this if one

recalls A bow was

shot on his ankle as some hunter had mistaken him for an animal from

far. The

person concerned was agahast what happened then Lord Krishna pointed

out that

during his incarnation as Lord Ram in earlier Yug he had done the

same to I

think one of the sacred trribe of monkeys , I do not recall exact

name think

ItsSugrir. In fact Lord Krishna was teaching mankind that none is

above law of

karma.In simple lanaguge what one gives comes back to you in some

form or other,

good or bad. That's the spiritual look at the problem From

humanitarian approach

all possible help to be given to victim to come back to normal and

remove the

scars of her traumatic experience, by counselling sessions by lady

doctors over

a period of few months, as the victim me relive it and start

sweating thinking

of it in sleep and scream.

 

If it is woman who is subject to such a heinous crime, she has every

right to

remove the foetus, provided it is before 12 weeks when new life sets

in. Before

that it is a mere lump of body flesh.

 

Request that spiritual things be discussed not such things, as it is

brining

down the level of decorum of Sacred Gita discussions. Nothing will

be gained

spiritually in any way by talking of man's falling moral standards

and brute

like attitude, only change will be we will become lower in

spirtuality. After

all a man is known by company he keeps. Surely there are more better

spiritual

topics than this!! We are nobody to judge others and point fingers

at them, as 4

fingers point back to us. We need to improve ourselves looking at

every

intention of ours like does it havve traced of moha, lobh krodh,

voilence,

rectify oursleves and be fit before we even consider improving

others.

 

Gratitude

 

shirin

 

---------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

 

Jai Hanuman

 

How the " mother " was and how the " mother " has now become - in this

Kaliyuga ! Killing own children ! Indeed - words can't express the

anguish of the soul !! ( Mike Bhaiyya ! I used your words- anguish

of soul !)

 

TU KITNI ACHHI HAI ? TU KITNI BHOLI HAI ? PYAARI PYAARI HAI ! O

MAA ! O MAA !

 

How good are you O Mom ! How docile are you O Mom! Oye Lovely Lovely

Jee ! O Mom ! O Mom!!

 

KI YE JO DUNIYA HAI , YE VAN HAI KAANTO KA , TU FULWAARI HAI ! O

MAA ! O MAA !!

 

That what is this world? This is only a forest of thorns ! You are

mass of flowers in it !! O Mother ! O Mother !!

 

APNA NAHIN TUJHE SUKH DUKH KOI , MAIN MUSKAAYA TU MUSKAAI , MAIN

ROYA TU ROYI !!

 

O Mom! You have no concern for your own pleasures and pains at all !

If I smile , you smile ! If I cry , you cry !!

 

MERE HANSANE PE , MERE RONE PE , TU BALIHAARI HAI ! O MAA , O MAA !!

 

You are ever loving - irrespective of whether I smiled or I cried !

You agree to however I am !! O Mom ! O Mom !!

 

MAA BACHON KI JAAN HOTI HAI ! WOH HOTE HAI KISMAT WALE JINKE MAA

HOTI HAI !!

 

A Mother is the very life force of the child. Fortunate are those ,

whose mother lives long !

 

KITNI SHEETAL HAI, KITNI SUNDAR HAI , NYAARI NYAARI HAI ! O MAA , O

MAA !!

 

How calm ! How adorable !! Always exclusive , super exclusive !! O

Mother ! O Mother !!

 

Hey Daddy the Great ! O Mom !! Kindly save us all from such ghastly

crimes !

 

Agreed, O Binanee S, Jee ! Agreed Vyas NB Jee !! Agreed Mahalaxmi

Maiyyaji !!! Agreed Mira Bahenji !!!! Mike Bhaiyya- sitting with

consort??? - how difficult it can become - when BG 18:32 is

operational?? - for both and each one ? Baba ! Where are we going ?

 

KAHAAN JAA RAHA HAI , TU AIYE JAANE WALE ! ANDHERA HAI MAN KAA DIYA

TO JALALE !!

 

Where are you going O Traveller ? There is darkness all around ! Why

don't you burn the light of " CONSCIENCE " within ?

 

May all understand what is way out of BG 18:32 !!!

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

--------------------------

 

Hari Om

 

Khullarji. Here are some slogans

 

* Silent scream of the fetus - what is my fault O Mummy ? What is my

fault O daddy ?

 

* Don't suck life out of me! Save m ! Save me! Have mercy on me ! I

will bring pleasures in your garden! O mummy - I am your daughter

only!

 

 

* Mera kasoor kya hai ?

 

* O mom ! Please give me birth. My own fate will take care of me

thereafter!

 

* O murderers! You will not even get water in future births what to

talk of food !

 

* O parents ! You enjoyed and I get killed! Is this humanity?

 

* Even a witch leaves at least one house unharmed! Don't kill fetus

in the womb ! Even witches don't do that!

 

* Fetus killing - a frightful disrespect to motherhood !

 

* You want to increase production on one hand and kill producer in

the womb itself- what kind of wisdom is this? What kind of

government is this?

 

* Birth control means converting a female into a prostitute !

 

* Control death first and then think of controlling birth !

 

* Fetus killing is resorted by those who neither believe in

Paramatma, nor in prarbdha (destiny) nor in purushartha!

 

* Getting medical test done, finding female fetus in the womb and

killing ! Is this respect to a woman? Is this a way of giving women

equal rights?

 

* O mothers! Don't lose the power of motherhood for ever! Don't kill

your child! Don't become object of pleasure only for men! Don't

become prostitutes!

 

* Kill fetus and become a non fruit bearing tree forever!

 

* Don't be so merciless O parents ! There will be no one left even

to give you a drop of water in future!

 

* Female fetus killing is the surest method of eliminating mothers

from the planet ! In whose womb you shall sleep in the next birth?

 

* Even bitches, witches and vampires do not kill their own children!

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

 

 

---------------------------

My dandavats to all in this forum...

MY heart breaks when I read the post of Prem Kullar. It is so

terrible that the east has taken up the course of following

activities of the west. I have lived in america my entire life, and

although perhaps I am " privileged " in the sense that I own propety,

car, etc.....I am extremely aware that there is no culture here in

America. No deep rooted traditions, no religious coloring of any

particular faith, and no strong bonds in communities. What little I

could offer in this discussion, is simply WHY? WHY? WHY FOLLOW THE

WEST? Though Sri Krsna's love is everywhere, though daily I

encounter beautiful people with loving hearts, they are suffering so

much in this country. The stress of city life is tremendous.....but

in the country there is no money to be made....(I have done both).

THIS COUNTRY IS DOOMED.....there is very little time left for it due

to its atrocious treatment of the cow, due to abortions, and due to

its policies of usurping and controlling resources of other

nations. WHY, WHY, WHY FOLLOW THE WEST? From the mouth of one

who has lived here my entire life, WAKE UP. I have visited India

twice, both times became completely overwhelmed with love for the

Supreme, to a degree that I am unable to express.....will India give

up all it's accumulated piety to become a hellish pit of

impersonalism and selfishness as the west? I pray not. Again, my

heart aches, what can I say, except all glories to your efforts,

Prem....to stop murder. To open the eyes of those who are blind....

 

In the words of Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta in his purport to bhagavad

Gita, " Those who commit such abominable acts will never see the

light of day again. "

So, the chain of karma will continue.....those killing the fetus

will themselves have to take birth in a womb and be aborted, time

and time again, to pay the price.

 

respectfully,

Mahalaksmi Dasi

------------------------------

Raam ! Raam !! Raam!!!

 

Some slogans for Mr Prem Khullar

 

1. Dont kill me in the womb itself - O mother ! O father ! I

will come with my own fate supporting me in this world !!!

 

2. Efforts of increasing agricultural production and controlling

births is like efforts of increasing milk in mother's breasts and

then not allowing conception !!!

 

3. Oh Mom ! Dear Mom !!! Why I should get killed when you enjoyed ?

 

4. O Father ! O Mother !! Throw me in a dust bin after giving birth!

But don't kill me when i am so helpless !!

 

5. Please! Please save me O parents ! I have capacity to bring

pleasures for you!

 

6. What is my fault? What my fault?? If you don't save me, who

will?

 

7. Even the wildest and the cruelest of animals do not kill their

own children!

 

With sincere Pranaams to all genuine Sadhaks! Shame on those who

advocate such ghastly acts ! SHAME !! SHAME !!!

 

Beenani S.

 

------------------------------

Hari Om

 

Let me now address Khullarji's query.

 

Swamiji used to put up a bill board outside His temporary abode

every where that - Those who have done sin of abortion may please

not bring " bhiksha " for me ! " Bhiksha " - alm of food. Swamiji would

eat food brought by 5 houses every day.

 

In Manusmriti - 4/208 , it is stated that

 

BHROONAN GHAVEKSHITAM CHAIV SANSPRISHTAM CHAAPYUDAKYAYA !

PATATRINA VALEEDHAM CHA SHUNA SANSPRISHTAMEVA CHA !!

 

One should not eat food (1) touched by female in periods (2)

touched by a dog (3) partially eaten by a bird (4) seen by (what to

say " touched by " ) one who ever indulged in abortion !

 

Verse referred by Khullarji is in Parashar Smriti 4/20.

 

YATPAPAM BRAHMA HATYAYA DVIGUNAM GARBHPATNE !

PRAYASHCHITAM NA TASYAATI TASYATYAAGO VIDHIYATE

 

In Brahma Vaivat Purana ( Prakrati Khand, Chapter 2) it is stated

that in the beginning of creation, the basic prakrati ( Shri Radha)

threw her fetus into waters. God immediately cursed her - From now

onwards you will never have a child. Not only that, by your part

whatever " divya " females will get created they also shall be without

a child. Thereafter from the tongue of Basic Nature (Shri Radha) -

Goddess Saraswati incarnated. Later on that Basic Nature got split

into 2 parts. From Left body - Goddess Laxmi incarnated. From Right

body " Radha " incarnated. God also became two. From half left body He

became " Chaturbhuj Vishnu " (Four armed Vishnu) and from right part

He became two armed " Krishna " ! Both Laxmi and Saraswati were

childless. Then from the pours of Krishna countless " Gopas "

incarnated. From pours of Shri Radha countless " Gopis " manifested.

My understanding is that Gopis were infertile, childless !

 

In " Vriddha Suryarun Karma Vipaak " Scripture it is stated:

 

PURVE JANUSHI YA NAARI GARBHA GHAAT KARI HYABHOOT!

GARBHAPAATEN DUKHARTA SAATRA JANMANI JAAYATE !! (477/1)

 

A Lady who had aborted in past lives, suffers in this life on

account of being childless!

 

VANDHYEYA YA MAHABHAAG PRICHHATI SWAM PRAYOJANAM!

GARBHAPAATRATA PURVE JANUSHYATRA PHALAM TVIDAM !!

 

If some Lady asks why she is issueless, infertile in this life?

Answer is due to abortion in the past life. ( 659/1; 856/1; 921/1;

1857/1)

 

GARBHAPATAN PAPADHYA BABHOOV PRAGBHAVEANDAJ !

SAATREVA TEN PAAPEN GARBHESTHERYA NA VINDATI !!

 

O Arun ! One who aborts in prior life, can not bear child in present

life ! ( 1187/1)

 

As simple as that !

 

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

-----------------------------

Woman Power!

by TA Ramesh

 

Without Shakti, Siva cannot do any duty in all the worlds;

Without power, no matter can be active in the Universe;

Without soul, human body cannot survive in the world!

 

Without mother, children cannot grow hale and healthy;

Without wife, husband cannot maintain family and children;

Without woman, man cannot love and live in the world!

 

Beauty, intelligence and love are the aspects of personality

That helps women stand unique in the world;

But, so emotional by nature that it's impossible

For a woman to keep secrets in her heart;

And so, women let the cat out of the bag easily!

 

Hence women show the skeleton kept in the cup-board

Long to anyone who moves them most!

That's why taboos and restrictions imposed on women

Are perhaps rigorous and heartless in many religions,

That are, now, slowly removed by social reforms

By great movement leaders in the modern world.

 

Literature is also full of the Power of Women

As the Main Theme everywhere in the world!

Without the beautiful woman, Helen at the center of the story,

How can Homer's Iliad ever exist in the world?

Without the virtuous woman, Sita in Valmiki's Great Epic,

Ramayana can ever be read so long?

 

Thousands of years, by law and religion,

Women are kept as under-dogs to men;

Women are not just the Weaker Vessels,

Without whose encouraging support

Vessels of Tears won't survive in the world;

Without the knowledge, intelligence and support

Of Woman Power, no family

Can sustain, develop and survive!

 

with regards

Dilip Ravindran

----------------------------

 

PRIOR POSTING

Namaste,

 

Manu's verse ' yatra naaryastu pUjyante ramante tatra devatAh' ( the

gods rejoice/ are happy, where the woman is worshipped) is, I feel,

a powerful message to inculcate respect for women at whichever stage

she may be.

 

Shubhamastu

Anuradha Choudry

------------------------------

-Shree Hari_

 

Clarification: I was reflecting on a place where I once lived long

ago, I was not in poverty but I saw much of it. I would never ever

imply that one should hold a dagger, as it were, at peoples throat,

and demand they follow, rules on their personal behavior , it is the

opposite to what I am. Options can be shown to them, not killing.

 

Many people revert to medicines of some sort or another, for various

conditions, and it often means the death of some organism or other.

In reality many are based on herbs, and a vegetable origin.

In passing my preference is homeopathy.

 

If I get or any person gets bitten by a snake around here, then to

the hospital quick smart, for an antidote, not to is death. (why die

if one can prevent it?)

 

Driven by compassion one would like to see people live life in

comfort and happiness, why not?

 

Yes Divine Feminine 'Shakti', (she is universal), has been suppressed

for thousands of years, and the world has become unbalanced, she has

to sit with her consort once more.

 

My thoughts are exhausted on the subject, I will just read on.

 

With Respect and Divine Love,

 

Mike Keenor

--------------------------------

 

Raam Raam Raam

 

Great Suggestion is that either you dont make efforts to remain

healthy, to cure any illnesses OR we are justified in stopping new

births into this world. Either you control death or we shall control

birth. As simple as that. Why you are taking medicines to cure

fever ? If you are taking medicines, then we shall abort the child.

What shall the child do in this planet? Oh No ! Kill him. Modern

societies cant tolerate this non sense of humans coming on this

planet so fast. Where is the space ? Where is housing for them ? Who

will arrange for their food, water, upkeep, maintenance? How costly

are the living now a days ? We want freedom ! We have come on this

planet, and after applying our minds we have concluded that in

modern societies such non sensical obstacles to sensual pleasures is

unwarranted ! Kill them . Stop them from coming to this world. Now

that we have come into this planet, where is the need for any other?

It is these new arrivals that has made this world so bad, and

unlivable. No , Sorry ! We cant let them enter. Kill the fetus.

Simply kill ! All problems are only because of that only ! Kill the

fetus in the womb itself. Suck the life out of it. Let us enjoy. We

never wanted the child. We just wanted to enjoy the human life. From

where this conception hascome ? Oh , dont worry kill the fetus ! We

are modern, we are not orthodox people. If we dont stop human beings

from coming to this world, then what shall be the difference between

us and animals. Animals mate only when there is season for mating.

They have to exercise restraints and disciplines- not the human

beings. Animals are animals only because they mate only when there

is a season. We are not animals. We are human beings. We shall mate

anytime we want - morning evening, day, night, January, April, June

any time, any month. What a fun ! What an obstacle to this fun is

this conception. That is spoil sport. Kill the fetus. After all we

are privileged, we are intelligent. We can invent devices to kill

them anytime. Science is pretty advanced. Vacuum cleaners. Suck the

life out of that creature. What the fetus thought we are so stupid.

Gone are those old concepts of father, mother, protector ! Non

sense. We have mind, intellect, beautiful body. This conception

is undesirable - a simple nuisance! We have thought over it, all

problems are only because of increase in population. From where the

additional income will come? From where we shall feed the children ?

No ! Not Possible!! Our leaders also say so. Entire economy is in

mess only because of this over population. Enjoy mating, but kill

fetus. Where is the need for child here ? Shall we eat ourselves or

get entangled in arranging food for them ? Are we so stupids ? Come

On ! Either you control death or we shall abort !!! We are modern

humans. Kill the fetus. No arguments. Kill ! If you want to live

peacefully - murder ! Or Control Death !

 

Raam Raam Raam !

 

Beenani S

 

------------------------------

Dear Vipra Bandhavaha, evam itare suhridaha,

We must avoid debates and discussion on which modern educated and so

called Western feminist women will have strong view. It is a pity

that they could destroy what they cannot create. See the ten per

cent of married couples who long and yearn for children and are not

blessed so. Think deeply, do not impose your views on others.

Vriddha Divakarosmi Bhoh.

 

------------------------------

Jai Hanuman

 

People often say if the population is not controlled there will be

shortage of eatables on the planet. This poverty , mal nutrition are

only because of population growth. Hence population control is the

answer for all these menaces confronting humanity. Wrong are they!!

Patently wrong ! Absolutely wrong !

 

Taat Shree ( Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj) said that kind of actions

which so called intelligentia advocate to support population

control, kind of sins which are increasingly getting legalised -

what to say eatables and food grains , one will not even get water

as a result .

 

Oh What a pity Jee ! A human being wants to live comfortably and in

order to do that, he wishes/wants to put obstacles in another human

being, in it's being born ! Is that humanity ? That is how you feel

one can bring happiness, order, harmony, pleasure in human life?

Such arguments are in reality a garbage advanced by power hungry

stupid politians to justify mis-management of existing resources and

mislead. Economics !! Sheer Nonsense !

 

Indeed the intellect can get into the spell of what is stated in BG

18:32. This is Kaliyuga Jee. This is how at the last phase of time

cycle, the humans can become. It will worsen in times to come. Ever

heard the term " cannibalism " ? Humans are heading towards the same.

 

Get liberated Jee, Realise Paramatma, O Dear Sadhaks Jee, as fast

as you can. Future will unfold else the circumstances and scenes

which you will never want to see again. Who have been left?. Those

who from Satyuga, to Treta to Dwapar till today have always set

example of BG 18:32. Most of us are in that zone only. Hurry up

Please Jee!

 

See how do they perceive - Hell with your coming on this planet, we

have come first and now we shall not allow you to come ! We will

enjoy the physical relationship, privilege, without letting you

come in Jee. Don't you know who we are Jee? Humans , Humans ! We

are humans !

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

--------------------------

------------------------------

 

Hari Om

 

I am in perfect agreement with Mahalaxmi Dasi and Mike Keenor. Of

course Mira Dass was immaculate as usual, completely relevant and

absolutely correct. Frankly, I can't say so for most of the views of

Mr Naga Narayana. If he wants as a sadhak to know as to why I feel

so , we can discuss briefly through short notes the reasons thereof.

 

Mike- you are right in most of your observations regarding birth

control pills also. That is not bad. But good is copulation timing

and male condoms. Better is " control " over the very desire and the

Best is mating only for giving birth ! ONLY WITH THAT PURPOSE !!

 

Reply of B Sathyanarainji is 100 percent right. No doubt about

that ! Mahalaxmi Dasi's response is one of the best write ups on the

subject , I have ever read.

 

Certainly Sobhanaji. Shame on the males can only be and rightfully

be attributed by females who are 1000 times more able, better and

powerful than males. All powers arise from female - Goddess

Shakti . All glories and happiness in this world arises out of

Goddess Laxmi- again a female. Mother Nature is a female.. You are

entitled to say so ! Sanatan Dharma is in favour of your entitlement

to do so ! My compliments as a sadhak .

 

Operations of males/females so that there is no conception is

extremely bad act. You get disentitled to perform many rituals and

you don't return to God and atmosphoric airs, what was received by

you - for the reasons best known to you only.

 

I have heard this from elders (don't remember if I read somewhere)

that Goddess Mahalaxmi had aborted a child in some human life. Even

after having Lord Naraina (Lord Vishnu) as her husband, she could

never become mother again. As simple as that !!

 

How a man is a man, if he has no powers to become father, has no

reproductive capacity ? Just How? How a woman is a woman if she has

no powers to become mother, has no reproductive capacity ? Just how?

 

But Mike , I really could not understand any relevance of your

reference of over population at the near by place. Really ! If you

mean to say that over population is not desirable and must be

controlled by any one , then I beg to differ with you. We can have a

deliberation on this. Divine deliberation ! Real Satsanga !! Example

setting form of satsanga !

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

----------------------------

 

I agree with you Shobhnaji, thousand percent. Shame on us to keep

treating the women folk with deep rooted disrespect.

 

To others, this is a social issue. And hence does not befit this

forum. Therefore, I desist to respond to the other queries

raised ... Mahabharata and Bhagavadgita are as useful to the society

as to a spiritual aspirant. But … that needs a different forum.

Therefore, let me be brief ...

 

To Dasiji, Vyaasji, Mike and others who have commented on the

feutus's freedom to take life … my question is regarding the freedom

of the person living. Our poor brothern in India has paid heavily on

the rape, violation and enslavement for more than a millenium thanks

to the wrongly preached spiritual values in social life. Again, the

problem is not in the great spiritual values … but, in the

preaching. Bhagavan Vyaasa warns sternly … Na buddhidhedam janayet …

never preach these values … they are only for seekers. Because,

those who do not understand the depth of concepts such as Ahimsa

(non-violence) and Shaanti (peace) would let their natural cowardice

reign their lives. It is the responsibility of a saint to

acknowledge that the world cannot be saintly. Whoever tried to

spread sainthood in the history has achieved nothing but social

fragmentation … sainthood never appeared in humanity so far.

Therefore, if at all spirituality helps, it should let the humans be

just humans first from social perspective.

 

Dasiji feels that the death is not a Godly act while birth is a

Godly act. If their exists a devil against the God, I can only pity

such appreciation of God. Good and bad are our creation in our

illusions. Just because we love birth and hate death, we cannot

project the same ignorance on God. Birth and death are both God's

gifts to us. We should treat both the same way with absolute

respect. If we cannot, at least we should not wield hypocracy to

suit our beliefs.

 

God is not their to protect anybody but has provided everything to

do so oneself. Krishna never fights ... Arjuna has to. If God " had

to " protect, he would have protected the violation of freedom of a

woman in the first place. One who suffers has all the right to

respond to one's own suffering in one's own way. Spirituality cannot

trespass its compassion to preach either way. Such judgment will be

as lopsided as of the Bramhin who tried to interfere with an eagle's

attempt to eat its food, a snake.

 

Vyasji has quoted Karna … the goodness captive in the bad … nothing

but a slave to the bad … committed to serve the bad till death. What

is the use of such goodness? In fact, more harmful to the society!

 

Again, the society should be The Bhima who pulls out the heart of

the beastly violaters enroute. Incidentally, he does not need

Krishna's intervention because Krishna's approval is inherent in all

his actions.

 

Respects.

 

Naga Narayana

 

---------------------------

Namaste

 

DAADU DUNIYA BAAWARI , FIKAR KARE GELI !

ROTI DESI RAMJEE, DOPAARA PELI !!

 

Said Sage Daaduji

 

Mad has gone this world ! Absolutely crazy. It is worrying

unnecessarily out of stupidity. God will provide meals to you before

noon time.

 

Mr Naga Narayana - Worry not ! There is one creator, preserver and

destroyer , called, Paramatma ( Ever heard this name?) who will take

care through Mother Nature about birth, death, fame, illfame,

happiness and sorrow.

 

Said Sage Vashishtha to Bharatji

 

AHO BHARAT BHAAVI PRABAL, BILAKH KAHAT MUNIRAAJ !

HAANI LAABH JEEVAN MARAN, JAS APJAS VIDHI HAATH !!

 

O Bharat ! Destiny is very powerful. Profit, Loss, Death, Birth,

Fame and Ill fame are controlled by Destiny only.

 

Stop giving reasons. Simply dont disturb the Laws of Nature . You

have no rights to do that. What if our fathers also thought in the

similar manner? How we would have been able to become humans then?

Dont we run to a doctor if urine stops ? We are that weak ! Why

should we take responsibility of Creator on our weak shoulders?

Stupidity is that- Isnt it ?

 

HAM EK KHILONE HAIN, EK AISE KHILAADI KE !

JISKO ABHI SADIYON TAK YEH KHEL RACHAANA HAI !!

 

We are toys in the hands of that player, who is yet to continue this

world for centuries and centuries.

 

Chesta Vinod

-----------------------------

Priya Sadhaks

 

Sobhanaji has indeed expressed herself naturally and therefore

powerfully. But only in writing " Shame on you all " ! On balance

there was nothing .

 

Madam ! None is bad here!! Change the vision and you shall start

seeing the ultimate good here ! Try it !

 

Why inflict any shame on any one?

 

At the lotus feet of all of you and of Paramatma

 

MM Purohit

 

 

===============================================================

 

PRIOR POSTING

My dandavats to all in this forum....

 

In regard to the concept of taking pills to prolong health being

" hypocritical " if one is against pills to stop birth......I am

shocked that one with knowledge would dare equate the two concepts.

Doesn't the Supreme Lord appear as Dhanvantari, to give knowledge of

herbs to help human beings? Where is there any reference where the

Supreme Lord would say, " yes, abort this child " ? Anyone can say

anything, but one must analyze according to scripture, if he or she

is to truly benefit the cause of humanity.

Also, I believe it is a myth that there is overpopulation. I

truly believe that mother Bhumi can expand her form, if needed, she

is alive....she is not dead matter. The problem today is

mismanagement of the resources. In the time of Prthu Maharaj,

another incarnation of the Lord mentioned in the Srimad Bhagavatm,

mother earth also withheld fruits and vegetables and grains, as there

was so little sacrifice in the human hearts taking place. On the

threat of Prthu Maharaj, she agreed to produce abundantly. Are

there those who think these stories are simply folk lore?

Again, anyone can say anything, but the laws of material nature

will act, regardless. If I say that the sun will rise in the west,

I can say it every day til I leave this world, but will it happen?

No, it will not. I cannot change the laws of nature. Killing is

sinful, attempting to prevent a soul from entering a womb using any

birth control is sinful, and reactions will come whether one

believes or not. This is the law of karma. Otherwise, if this were

not true, it would stand to reason that there is nothing wrong with

unlimited illicit sexual activity. Yes, just use birth control,

have abortions, enjoy your body all you choose...IS THERE ANYONE WHO

CAN SUPPORT THIS TYPE OF MENTALITY FROM A RELIGIOUS OR DEVOTION TO

GOD STAND-POINT? I don't believe it is possible.

Also, it may be true that the perpetrator of rape is a

rascal....but a woman cannot justify her act of murdering an unborn

child merely because a male chose to act sinfully. The two sins do

not balance each other out. Women must return to their role of

being protectors of society, of righteousness...with no " attitude "

of hatred toward the ignorance of males, otherwise the love and grace

of Laksmi will never again flow abundantly on this planet.

The " blame game " should not be for those of saintly character.

 

Respectfully submitted,

Mahalaksmmi Dasi

-------------------------------

-Shree Hari-

I found the comments by Naga Narayana and Meera Das absorbing, the

full spectrum as it were.

OK there was a program on TV here, that showed an abortion, not

simulated, the real thing, the apparatus used was a sort of vacuum

device the sucked the life from the womb.

As I watched this, I experienced something unusual, I had no

emotions, it was as if I were stone, no anger no horror, I was in the

presence of demonic evil, somehow my emotions retreated, my defenses

were up, sometimes evil can be so great it seems, that words and

reactions have no place.

What I saw, I never want to see again,.

Preventing conception, is not killing of life, there is timing of

copulation, condoms, barriers, and birth control pills; they do not

abort, I personally think that the birth control pill may have

dangers, as it interferes with normal bodily functions.

However if the pill prevents the resort to abortion, then so be it.

If a woman is raped, the fetus is not the intruder, the brute who

raped her is. Punish him by the full force of the law, not the fetus.

(I understand in some countries, it's almost impossible to be charged

with rape, and the victims can be punished, how terrible!)

 

I have personally witnessed, the stinking mire that over population,

poverty, animals and humans living in close proximity, the over

powering smell of camels, goats , and sewage, and what it does to

people.

 

So on the subject of abortion, I see strength in Meera Das point of

view, and on birth control, I think Naga Narayana, has sound

arguments.

 

With Respect and Divine Love.

 

Mike Keenor

------------------------------

What about the karma of the men who rape? All the views expressed

here do not take into account that women are human beings, have

feelings and have the right to perhaps cleanse themselves of the

sins committed by men. Abortion is the only way to cleanse such sin

committed by men, who are " protectors " and hide behind religious

views.

 

Shame on all of you.

Shobhna S. Kumar

-------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Hari Om

 

Under no circumstance, even if the circumstance is life

threatening - the sin of abortion should not be done.

Any happenning in our life is outcome of our own karma meted out by

God's laws through nature. Law of Karma is precise and accurate in

its operation.

 

Every incidence has kripa (benevolence) of God hidden in it. Every

adverse incident provides you an opportunity to get closer to God by

right conduct and right utilisation of given circumstance. The human

birth has not been given for petty comforts and worldly pleasures.

It is a challenging, sadhan ( striving for God Realisation) form of

life. The austerity resulting from given adverse circumstances is

God sent/willed as per our own prior deeds.One must take such God

sent austerities as an opportunity for spiritual advancement. One

must perceive the human life as a special form of life- not to enjoy

worldly pleasures but to happily do one's duty without caring for

one's right and another's duty. Job is already on hand, of giving

birth to the innocent child, the duty is already on hand. The

aggrieved should take it so, give birth to the child, and thereafter

she may handover the child to orphanage etc.

 

One must be " careful in " doing " , and happy in " happening "

(result) " . No circumstance can force you to commit new sins.

 

Sanatan Dharma Scriptures deal with every type of circumstance.

Similar circumstance was faced by Kunti also. Kunti was mother of

Karna conceived when she was unmarried through Sun. She gave birth

to the child and silently surrendered the child to the mother

nature. Karna went on to be a part of history forever. Karna earned

admiration of all , including from Lord Krishna. He was one of the

greatest philanthropist the Indian soil has ever produced. He

redefined the art of giving/donating/ renunciation. He was " tyaag

murti " . Karna was the eldest son of Kunti- elder than

Yuddhister/Bhim/Arjuna/Nakul/Sahdev.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

--------------------------

HELLO SIR,

Your own conscience is the best guide. follow it. In so doing see

that your action does not harm the other person. Follow the maxim "

do unto others what you expect from others " That's what the Mahatma

Gandhi said, " I look to my inner self for guidance when I am in

trouble " . So said Lord Buddha too.

Ramachander Homma

--------------------------

Dear Sadaks,

If a lady conceives, it is not her wish or effort. Many women even

after marriage do not concieve. Why? The child to be born is

predecided by the Karma of that soul. In certain cases the child

gets aborted naturally, which is no way connected with anybody or

Sin.

But to abort a child is wrong. The cause is abortion and the effect

is the lady who aborted the child, will have rebirth as lady who

will have no issues (children). This lady who aborted can even be a

tree in her next birth, where the tree does not yield fruits. The

rebirth depends on once Paapas (sins) and Puniyas (virtues).

Referance Garbopanashid.

B.Sathyanarayan

--------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

I resonate totally with the views expressed by Naga Narayanji on

this subject.

No action in itself is right or wrong without regard to

circumstances surrounding it.

An action such as abortion may be right in one set of circumstances

and wrong in another set of circumstances. In otherwords, actions

are not inherently right or wrong.

There are many examples in daily life where we can see this to be

true.

I think that right action comes to one who is steadfast on the path

of righteousness (dharma), and seeks all decisions from the Totality

of Being(THAT) and never as an individual! In such cases interest of

all parties involved in actions are duly considered by THAT. Such

actions are God taking actions through people for people.

Namaskaras........Pratap Bhatt

 

--------------------------

 

PRIOR POSTING

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

As our scriptures says - if we believe that we are the Atma (Soul,

Spirit, Individual Consciousness), and if we also believe that human

life is the rarest form of birth (1 of 8.4 million species in this

Universe), and that only in this human form of life, one can attain

freedom from all bondages, one can realize their true nature, one

can attain salvation, one can realize eternal bliss, one can develop

love of God… etc., then common sense says that what Swamiji says is

without any doubt to be accepted - i.e. we have no right to stop

the evolution of a Soul, by creating roadblocks in it's evolution

cycle. This roadblock that we place on another souls' progress, to

not allow it an opportunity for salvation, will definitely have it's

consequences and is a grave sin. Most of the times, we sin due to

desire for our own happiness, self protection, comforts, betterment,

selfish reasons, and if we look at it from that perspective, also

the reason for abortions are also mostly for the same reasons, for a

little convenience and happiness, we are destroying another life,

and not allowing it to be born as a human, a soul that could have

realized the Self / God, and attain salvation etc.

 

Swamiji has said it is briefly addressed in Gita, under demoniac

tendencies. Gita 16:9 " Prabhavantyu grakarmaanah kshayaaya

jagatohitaah. " " Not believing in the eternal soul, the demoniac

natured appear as enemies of the world, for its destruction. " Gita

16:9

Unknowingly we destroy and kill helpless lives, and are hoping the

we will be benefited. How can we be benefited? How can we attain

salvation?

" Jaan-jaanker mook, asamarth jivon ki hatyaa karte ho aur caahete ho

ki hamaaraa bhallaa ho jaaye; kaise ho jaayegaa? kalyaan kaise ho

jaayegaa ?

 

For their selfish motives, such demoniac people indulge in violence,

murder and usurpation etc., without thinking of the pain, which they

inflict upon others.

" Dharmasarvasva suno, aur sunker dhaaran kar lo. Jo aacharan apnese

pratikool ho, usko dusero ke prati mat karo. "

 

Looking at a broader more Universal perspective, who truly takes

care of the 8.4 millions species? Do we? What arrogance to think

that we alone have the right and the burden of responsibility for

that conceived fetus? In many countries, one has to wait for years

and pay a huge amount, to adopt a child. Our ego and selfishness is

causing us to not give this opportunity to another soul and to

instead sin.

 

Not only that, many women who visited Swamiji after having undergone

several abortions, found their bodies to be significantly weakened,

undergoing several irreversible health problems. (I am truly

unaware of the medical and health implications, as this is based

only on experiences / problems that women shared with Swamiji).

 

After listening to Swamiji / reading his thoughts from books for a

number of years, after listening to the way He responded to question

and answers, there was never a question that he could not answer to

one's satisfaction. He had thought about everything he shared,

deeply for a long time, before he even uttered a word or stated

something firmly. In my opinion, Swamiji and all the major

religions of the world that believe in pro-life cannot be wrong!

 

Hope this helps.

Meera Das

Ram Ram

-------------------------------

Sanity and Sanctity of Birth-Control and Abortion

 

Many religions are committed to the propaganda of the idea of anti-

abortion and anti-birth-control strongly even in the so-called

advanced societies such as West. I strongly advocate that this is an

extremely lopsided vision from both social as well as natural

persepctives. By the way, spirituality has nothing to do with it!

 

We hear a lot like " birth is God's Grace and hence we should not

intefere; any such intereference is the greed, selfishness and

arrogance of humans against God's Grace " . I agree with it completely

ONLY IF it is also appreciated in tandem that " death is also God's

Grace and hence we should not interfere with that as well " . Death is

part of the creation as much as the birth. Is it OK to exercise our

ego to interfere with THAT when we are trying all we could do to

avoid/postpone the death? Isn't it the same greed and arrogance in

action in this case as well? Are we not disgracing ourselves by not

believing God's will in our death??

 

My suggestion to the birth-promoters is, " do not take a single pill

to interfere with God's will in the deseases, aging as well as in

death. Then, you are entitled to claim that one should not

interefere with God's will. " Taking all medicinal help to promote

our survival rate and life span on one hand and rejecting the same

for birth control on the other hand is hypocracy. Such attitude is

utterly (1) anti-nature resulting in lopsided population growth of

one single species on this earth; and (2) anti-society resulting in

undue stress of life demands overwhelming the resources. As far as

death control is excercised, one should allow the birth control to

balance the act in any soceity. That is social sanity and that is

natural sanctity.

 

Again, promoting one's material life on this earth is not at all the

agenda of Bhagavad Gita. The agenda is to cleanse the life we have

already taken … to learn how to live it well and how to leave it as

well. That does not remove any of our social responsibilities and

natural obligations. One can get liberated from the social

responsibilities by accepting the nature – birth and death alike. On

the other hand, one cannot get liberated from the natural

obligations till one lives.

 

Also, abusing the spiritual texts for social promotion is incorrect

and can lead to become frantically religious and religiously

fanatic. Bhagavaan Vyaasa advocates to never preach spirituality to

one who cannot appreciate it for one with half-baked knowledge will

lead to natural catastrophies such as population explosion which

eventually culminates in social catastrophies such as wars.

 

Na buddhibhedam janayet agnyaanaam karmasanginaam |

Joshayet sarva karmaani vidvaanyuktassamaacharan ||

 

For social issues such as abortion one should adapt common sense and

social awareness that reflects the circumstantial reality. If the

woman is forced to bear a feutus against her will, she has all the

rights to terminate the same. I request the same preachers to catch

hold of the male beasts that cause such distress in the fisrt place

and terminate them instead. Nobody has any right to interfere in

this matter when one cannot share the burden of the socio-economical

implications let alone the physio-psychological distress imposed

upon the victim. Why should an innocent woman suffer because of a

beastly male? Society should be The Bhima who pulls out the heart of

such beasts enroute. Incidentally, he does not need Krishna's

intervention because Krishna's approval is inherent in all his

actions.

 

Respects.

 

Naga Narayana

------------------------------

Dear Sir ,

 

You mentioned the shloka:

" Yat paapam brahmahattyaa dvigunam garbhapaatane; Praayashchitam ne

tasyaasti tatsyaasyaago vidhiyate " (Parasharsmriti 4:20).

 

Please let me know if you know any more details about this Shloka.

 

I am planning to put up boards with slogan in the villages with this

verse picture of Lord Krishna and Radha and duly translated thus :

 

BRUNE HATYA JO KARE HOGA MAHAAPAP

VIDHATA KA USSKO LAGEGA BHANKAR SHRAAP.

 

Any idea of better slogan? or any other thoughts on this?

 

Prem Khullar

-------------------------------

 

PRIOR POSTING

Hare Krishna

 

Answer to Question 1

 

Prashantji, I am pasting the answer of your question from Swamiji's

book " Sadhan-Sudha-Sindhu " page 960.

 

Q. If it becomes compulsory for woman to abort the baby due to an

infection, then what should she do?

 

A. She will definitely incur the sin of abortion. For protecting

woman people abort the baby but this should not be done. What has to

happen will indeed happen. If the woman has to die then even after

abortion she will die. If she is destined to live longer then she

will not die even if she chooses not to abort. Whatever may be the

cause of death, it will only arrive when the time is up. So abortion

should never be done.

 

Q. Should abortion be carried out in case an unmarried woman becomes

pregnant?

 

A. That boy and girl should marry who had pre-marital sex. If the

marriage is not possible then also abortion should not be done. The

girl should nurture that child and give him/her to an orphanage or

give it to someone who wants to adopt a child.

 

If a woman is raped then the rapist will incur terrible sin. If the

woman has derived pleasure from that then she will also incur sin.

All sins emanate from sensual desire. So the amount of sin will be

in direct proportion with the pleasure derived by that woman. If the

woman did not take any pleasure then she will not incur sin.

 

If an unmarried woman is pregnant then her parents will also incur

sin for their carelessness. It is a must for parents that they take

utmost care of their daughter and not give her excessive

independence.

 

Q. If society comes to know about it then she will become infamous

and no one will marry her?

 

A. After committing sin one has to bear defamation. Abortion,

suicide and running from home. In comparison to these three sins,

it's better to bear the defamation. If no one is willing to marry

her then she should reside in her father's house and spend her life

in worshipping God. This will be penance for her which will destroy

her sins.

 

Q. If a married woman is raped and she becomes pregnant then what

should be done?

 

A. It is better for her to be quiet. If husband comes to know about

it then he should also remain quiet. The couple's slience is best

for them. In reality, one should always be attentive from the

beginning so that such kind of situations do not arise. My

suggestion is not for abortion because it is an ultimate sin

(MahaPaap).

 

Answer to Question 2

 

Shri Khullarji, you are indeed doing great social service by

rescuing women from committing sins like abortion etc. This society

needs people like you.

 

Gita doesn't specifically mention about abortion. It strikes the

root of sin i.e. desire and God has spoken at length on it. Read

Gita (3-36, 37 and 16-21, 23, 24)

 

Premji, Gitapress has published 2 books.

 

Matrishakti Ka Ghor Apman (Code 420)

Desh Ki Vartaman Dash Aur Uska Parinam (Code 617)

Check the details at www.gitapress.org. You can use these 2 books

for your purpose.

 

These 2 books are also included in a 1000 page book Sadhan-Sudha-

Sindhu (Code 465). It is a compilation of more than 40 books of

Swamiji's teachings.

 

Thanks,

 

Hare Krishna

Varun P. Paprunia

-------------------------------

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

From Gita Talk Moderator:

 

" Sadhan, Sudha, Sindhu " in Hindi by Swami Ramsukhdasji, can be

viewed online for free at:

 

http://www.swamiramsukhdasji.org/swamijibooks/pustak/pustak1/html/sad

hansudhasindhu/main.html

Ram Ram

 

-------------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, This passage has moved me deeply. One should still

think about the fact that abortion is wrong. Firstly when a woman or

a man, yes a man can be raped by a woman for his seed. QUESTION 1:

If raped, the fact is the baby formed is not at fault. One does not

have the right to kill a child just because of that fact.

What would be such a case when rape occurs and the child is aborted?

your comments please. Prashanth

---------------------

Dear Sir I read the SADAK dt 26 september 2008 regularly . I read

the following verse in your letter dated 27/09/08.

QUESTION 2: In the Paaraashersmriti - " Yat paapam brahmahattyaa

dvigunam garbhapaatane; Praayashchitam ne tasyaasti tatsyaasyaago

vidhiyate " Can you correctly guide me as to where do I find this

writing below, also does Gita make any reference to this? I wish to

quote it in my meetings in the villages against the female feticide.

(aborting female fetus)

thanks, Kindly do clarify and oblige,

prem khullar

-------------------------------

ADDITIONAL QUERY:

 

Do any of you have any more details on this shloka from Paaraasher

Smriti - " Yat paapam brahmahattyaa dvigunam garbhapaatane;

Praayashchitam ne tasyaasti tatsyaasyaago vidhiyate " . Kindly let me

know any other scriptures where abortion is mentioned as sinful.

Gita shloka does not clearly point to abortion per se. The source

is important, therefore do provide it, along with the quote /

shloka.

 

I am in process of creating slogans for big display boards for

villages and cities of Haryana where female feticide is spreading

like wild fire. Please suggest good slogan ! Please help

immediately.

Sincerely - Prem Khullar.

--------------------------------

 

:Shree Hari:

Ram Ram

 

26th September, 2008, Friday

Ashwin Krishna Dvaadashi, Vikram Samvat 2065, Shukravar

 

" Mana jaane sab baat, jaan boojh avaguna kare

kyon chaahat kusalaat, ker deepak koonye pade. "

 

At present times such terrible and fearsome sins are taking place,

that simply by listening, one's hair stands on ends, eyes become

filled with tears, and heart is deeply moved ! Ram Ram Ram, what

terrible unjustice, what fearsome sins are taking place, but your

attention is not going there at all ! Human body is said to be the

rarest of all all forms of life -

" Durlabho maanushyo deho dehinaam shunabhangurah " (Srimad Bhagavat

11:2:29)

" Labdhvaa sudurlabhmidam bahusambhvaante,

maanushyamarthdamnityampeeh dheerah " (Srimad Bhagavat 11:9:29)

" bade bhaag maanushya tanu paava. Sur durlabh sab granthnhi

gaava. " (Manas 7:43:7)

 

Such a rare human body, is being destroyed at the very beginning.

It is being cut up along with the jeev, and this is such a great

offense, it is such injustice, it is a terrible sin! My mind feels

immense pain, it is feeling great distress, but what to do! The

human body by which one can realize God, to not allow that human

body to even be born, and to destroy it, it is the ultimate sin !

To not allow some soul the opportunity to receive a human body, to

not allow that human body to even be born, to take medication from

the beginning and destroy it, through abortion or any other means.

One has stooped so low - not only to think about going to hell

themselves, but at the same time not even allowing another soul the

opportunity for upliftment, for benediction ! Now what is one to

do? Who to share this with? And who will listen to my point? Is

there no one listening ?

 

For ascetics it has been written in the scriptures to not travel

much during " Chaturmaas " (four months in a year during the rains).

Because during these month, due to the rains, every seed grows into

a sappling, which later grows into a tree. By extensive traveling,

walking, these seedlings come under the feet and are destroyed.

Therefore during this four month period, the ascetics do not walk

and roam around much, so that unknowingly no violence is done to any

life form. In Bhagavat it has been said, that if you wish to gain

victory over violence, then reduce the movement of the body -

" hinsaa kaayaadhyaneehayaa. " (Bhagavat 7:15:23). When there is

so much thought put into non-violence around immovable things, then

what to speak on the subject of movable beings? But nowadays, the

best of all movable life forms, better than even the devatas, the

human body, is being contemplated for destruction, what a state of

affairs we are in ! (to be continued)

 

From " Saadhan, Sudhaa, Sindhu " pg 946 in Hindi by Swami Ramsukhdasji

 

For full online discourses in Hindi, please visit Swami

Ramsukhdasji's website. http://www.swamiramsukhdasji.org

--------------------------

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Re: Frightful Disrespect to Power of Motherhood

 

 

QUESTION 1: If raped, the fact is the baby formed is not at fault.

One does not have the right to kill a child just because of that

fact. What would be such a case when rape occurs and the child is

aborted?

QUESTION 2: Paaraashersmriti - " Yat paapam brahmahattyaa

dvigunam garbhapaatane; Praayashchitam ne tasyaasti tatsyaasyaago

vidhiyate " – where to find this reference?

QUESTION 3: Does Gita make any reference to abortion?

QUESTION 4: Please provide helpful slogans for Bill-boards.

QUESTION 5: Please also elaborate on sins accumulated by males

responsible for the rape?

 

--------------------------------

 

NEW POSTING

 

Ragarding Hari Deo's comments, religion is Duty! Duty is

religion ! Where is the distinction between the two? Does " Duty "

have no role when an innocent helpless one is murdered ruthlessly?

Who has entitled us to control Creation? As one sadhak stated, are

we even capable of doing anything if we cannot pass urine? Surely we

have to seek the help of a doctor. What is then our power? Ever

checked with child-less couples about their state (which includes

10% of the world population, and on the rise). How much more do we

want to contribute to this rise? Why?

 

Lallubhai C

--------------------------

Who comes forward to help the woman bring up this child, after we

encourage her to have this child? If she wants the child, fine, if

she does not want the child, then that is also fine.

 

It is a woman's right to determine what she should do with her body.

Particularly in case of rape, and life and death or any other

justifiable situations.

 

Bhagwan Krishna taught Arjuna how to be practical in the face of

appaddharma. This is also a case of special circumstances and the

normal laws of morality and ethics cannot be applied blindly.

 

Dr. Rampersad

--------------------------

Namaste to sadhaks

 

Mr Naga - if your observations are accepted by a confused,

dis-illusioned, yet innocent person, then what kind chaos can result

in her and in society at large? Was there any consideration given

to women being viewed as mere cheap objects of pleasures for men ?

Is this advocating for them? Or is it insulting them and

motherhood. The way I read into the advice that is being offered –

One should kill the child because when he comes out of womb there

will be no loving embrace of father. Or kill the child because some

one else sinned against the woman. X commits a sin against Y, then

by what kind of logic can justify Y doing a more brutal act, an

ultimate sin (abortion) against Z? What exactly is being

communicated? Why is it being said ? Who are you saying it to? How

are you saying it? In this forum all are sadhaks are people who are

drawn towards God, towards duty, towards the ultimate bliss and

freedom. Kindly re-think your message.

 

No ! Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj can never say a wrong word. What a

mother will not do to protect an unborn child ! SHE WILL GO TO ANY

LENGTH FOR PROTECTING AN UNBORN CHILD! That is mother!!

 

I join hands in support of divine work of Prem Khullar. I totally

agree with various sadhaks in support of unborn child .

 

Bandook Singh

--------------------------

Jai Chandi Maata

 

Mr Hari Shanker Deo - your comment about - bringing religion in

matters regarding abortion needs to be reconsidered /elaborated

by you. Can you tell as to how you arrived at the conclusion that if

religion is brought in this ghastly human conduct, then each lady

would deliver 20 children? Even if that is true, for

argument's sake, then can you let the sadhaks know as to how that

would be improper according to you? Also where according to you

religion is useful and where it is not useful? Please explain there

as to what else according to you is useful where religion has no

role to play? Who then plays the role? Also describe what do you

mean by saying- " unwanted children " ? How abortion is the answer for

what you want or you don't want ? No body cuts the body to suit the

trousers ! Isn't it?

 

I agree whole-heartedly with Mahalaxmi Dasi.

 

Fajeeti Rani

----------------------------

 

PRIOR POSTING

 

-Shree Hari-

 

I thought I would write down a few words that came to me when

reflecting on such a diabolical thing. Prem Khullarji, I am truly

sorry I do not have the knowledge to help with the sacred scriptures.

It is my absolute desire that Bhagwan will guide you, and bless you.

All I can do is bow my head in sorrow.

 

Do not murder me mumma dear.

I have joy to give, and laughter to give,

loving arms to embrace you.

Please do not make a silent space.

Mumma, I implore you.

 

With Respect and Divine Love,

 

Mike Keenor

------------------------------

 

Raam Raam Raam

 

Vandanaji's message was really soul toching and so was of Shirin.

If we can understand a simple fact that human life is not given to

us for any enjoyment or pleasures and that this life is a " KARMA

YONI' or " SADHAN YONI " where you have to do your duties only- the

entire discussion gets summed up there. If we can even understand

that this entire creation is a " lila of God " the thorn of

dissatisfaction felt by females gets removed. If we can understand

and appreciate the fact that there is one accurate and precise Law

of Karma in operation in this world , a Law which is blind, ruthless

but just and equitable, a law which is governing the the entire

humanity, then we shall understand as to why one is given the birth

as a male or female , or as to why it is the duty of female to

protect the fetus. We are in fact considering the Laws made by

Paramatma and are finding faults with each other. Males are not

happy with females and vice versa. We dont even resist from finding

faults with the creation and the creator. IF ONLY WE BELIEVE EITHER

IN PARAMATMA, OR IN PURUSHARTHA OR IN PRABDHA- such bitterness shall

not arise. But we are looking at the world as REAL, as a PLEASURE

GIVING CREATION and hence this state of affairs. Why blame males ?

Some body has to conceive. What if child becomes parentless on the

day 1? Does it not happen? What if another catastrophe occurs ?

UNLESS WE BELIEVE AND ACCEPT THAT THIS WORLD IS A MIRAGE/DREAM/LILA

OF GOD and our role is to play our duties diligently and realise

Paramatma - aeons will pass but we shall be no where near the

PEACE !!! If some female has been wronged, raped - she has not

incurred any sin. The male has incurred sin. Only when she because

someone has done injustice to her, does the same thing with another

innocent soul- she sins, not before. Hence -Vandanaji -scriptures

advice females against abortion.

 

Females can draw the solace from the fact that the brute males shall

not be spared similarly from the wrongs done to females. Law of

Karma will hit them more brutally. There is no need of quoting

scriptures to substantiate that. It goes without saying. When our

role is to do our own DUTY only - arising out of whatever

circumstances Law of Karma/Paramatma/Mother Nature has presented to

us in this otherwise DUKHALAYAM ASHASHWATHAM - then what remains to

be the issue ? ACCEPT THE CIRCUMSTANCES AS IT IS, DO YOUR DUTY, DONT

LOOK AT OTHER'S DUTY, REALISE GOD and ENJOY THE COMPANY OF PARAMATMA

FOREVER. Leave these worldly brutes, preachers, to their own fate.

GET YOURSELF OUT OF IT. That is all

 

Pranaam to all sadhaks

 

Beenani S

 

---------------------------

My dandavats to all in this forum,

In response to the questions posed below, I would like to attempt to

address point by point the suggestions made by our sadhak, Naga

Narayan.

 

Please explain, how one can deal with the issue of life/death in an

impersonal way? (as you have begun your presentation saying, " I

have to be pragmatic and impersonal..... " ) Is this truly something

that makes any sense? How does one discuss the issue of a mother

killing her child in an admittedly impersonal way? Something is

very wrong here, and I am not saying this to find fault. Please,

kindly ask yourself this question, How is it possible to state, " I

will deal with this issue in an impersonal way " ....when the very

nature of the subject is extremely personal, so much so that many

woman cannot live without their child? How can a man know the grief

and pain and heartache a mother would feel when her child is taken

away? Only if he is extremely mature on an emotional level, having

undergone very deep growth either in this life or previous, will he

be ALLOWED to know this pain. It is not an easy thing for a man to

know the depth of a womans' pain.

 

In the story of Prahlad Maharaj, we learn from the Srimad

Bhagavatam that the demigods had made a decision to arrest the

mother of Prahlad, while he was still in the womb, and when the

child was born, to kill him. Because his father, a terrible demon,

was performing austerities by which to conquer over the demigods,

and the fearful demigods were anxious that the child within the womb

would be an even greater demon. The great sage, Narada Muni,

arrived on the scene, and chastised the fearful demigods,

saying, " Even if you wanted to kill this child, you would not be

able to. He is a great devotee of the Lord " . Narada then took the

mother to his ashram, and constantly uttered Hari Katha, which was

heard by the embryo. When Prahlad was developing as a child, he is

renowned for instructing his school friends to sing the glories of

Lord Krsna, to put devotion before everything.

 

What right do any of us have to say what will be the character of

any given child? Or what will be it's destiny after leaving the

womb of the mother? Certainly, if you walk up to orphan's in the

street, very few will say, " Yes, we would prefer to have died. "

 

You speak of the child within the womb not having a decent father.

This is certainly tragic, but isn't it more tragic for someone to

say, " Child, you should be dead rather than live without the love of

your father " . I personally cannot comprehend this logic. Isn't the

Supreme Lord the father of all? Isn't he able to manifest in so

many, various forms, to help the living entities in this world? I

can speak from personal experience, if the child has one good

parent, either mother or father, they can conquer. They can go on

to achieve wonderful things.

 

There is a statement below, " the questions that would bother me if I

impose my personal agenda of anti-abortion are many … Well, my

dear Prabhu....when did anyone's presentation of defending the

rights of an unborn fetus become " my personal agenda " ? Speaking the

truth, that murder is sinful, is never, never, never going to become

any individual's personal agenda. It is crystal clear who actually

has a personal agenda.

 

What is the point of this forum? For anyone to give their

own " personal agenda " ? No. It is to elucidate, in regard to the

teachings of the ancient scriptures, what is proper conduct for

human beings.

 

I AM NOT ONE TO BLINDLY FOLLOW ANY TEACHINGS. IT IS NOT ONLY IN

AMERICA THAT A WOMAN HAS THE RIGHT TO BE LOVING, TO BE RESPECTED, TO

BE PROUD OF THE CONCEPT OF " I AM A MOTHER'. All women have this

right, and for any man to try to justify a woman killing her child,

is to attempt to strip her of everything that is precious to the

concept of not just a woman, but also that of a mother. What

memories are you speaking of, that she will have if the child is

born? You did not mention the horrendous guilt and memories she

would have after killing her child? Why not mention those alongside

the other.

 

Certainly men these days need to look at their traditional

roles, and what gives SOME of them the sense that women are merely

objects of their pleasure. To those men, my prayers, that you may

somehow become educated...become wise...go beyond your inflated,

pompous ego, and understand that the women of the world who truly

seek to be righteous, to be motherly, to be beautiful.....are what

will save this planet. I do not speak of all " women " .....there are

souls in both categories, of men and women, who are selfish,

destructive to themselves and others, and unable to uplift

themselves. Only our prayers for their benefit.....

 

In concluding, please allow me to examine one last paragraph.....

How correct is it on my part to insist the woman to forget that she

is also a human being entitled equally to liberty of actions and

freedom of thoughts just like me? Is it not that such victims should

be given more freedom to express themselves? … as they truly want?

 

Is this the words of a male " women's libber " ? As they were called

back in the seventies and eighties? Where does " entitled equally

to liberty of action and freedom of thought " enter into the picture

of the life of one who is dedicated to spiritual growth? Whether

male or female, if an individual studies the Gita and other sacred

teachings, even if he/she is not HIndu, still there is acceptance of

a path of religious or proper conduct. One must accept that various

courses of action have to be abandoned. Meat eating is not

conducive to spiritual life. Nor is intoxication, illicit sexual

relations, gambling, or killing of unborn babies. Regardless of how

they entered into the womb. This goes for men, as well as women.

I remember back in 1980, when I was first married, there was an

Indian doctor in Colorado where I was living in my first year of

marriage. He quit his job at the hospital, because he was

instructed to perform an abortion. He could not do it, as he had

some understanding, that, " I am NOT entitled equally to liberty of

action " . His thought was, " I am bound by the teachings of my

superiors, of my culture " . When one desires to grow in love for the

supreme, he or she does not stop thinking, feeling, expressing, but

still there is a narrow path to follow. If one wanders from that

path, he or she will be eaten by the tigers of material enjoyment.

So, suit yourselves, dear readers, if you choose to demand " freedom

of thought " , in the sense that " anything goes " . Karma will continue

to flow, whether we declare we are free of it or not. I can boldly

place my hand in a blazing fire, declaring, " I will not be burnt! "

but guess what? I will be horribly burnt. And that is not blind

religious dogma, it is merely the truth.

 

respectfully submitted, Mahalaksmi DAsi

---------------------------

Nobody likes to abort. But abortion is common these days to prevent

unwanted births due to failure of family planning. To bring religion

into it is silly because otherwise each woman would produce 20

children and the world would come to an end.

 

Hari Shanker Deo

---------------------------

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

We all become despondent like Arjuna over the course of this

spiritual journey, yet if we hear Sri Krishna's message to the

despondent Arjuna, the ultimate victory is only in following dharma,

whether it be rape or any other situation.

 

Human birth is RAREST and BEST form of all births, (1 of 8.4 million

species), and the ONLY birth where salvation is possible, therefore

to destroy at inception ??? We don't know the potential of that

Soul at inception. He / she could become one of the greatest

Saints !! a Mahatma ! and not to even give it a chance? can that

make any sense from a dharmic perspective?

 

To reiterate / summarize Varun Paprunia has stated Swamiji's

response on tough issue such as rape. Please re-read it. To

summarize some key points -

 

1) Rapist will incur terrible sin, and even woman too if she derived

pleasure.

2) Woman who aborts will definitely incur the sin of abortion.

Swamiji goes so far as to say, not to abort even if life of woman is

in danger, therefore aborting after rape is out of the question.

3) If raped women, becomes pregnant, best to give birth, nuture if

possible, if not turn over for adoption.

4) If unmarried becomes pregnant, it is better to bear the

defamation for committed sin than abortion, suicide or running from

home.

 

Swamiji's article " Abortion - Worst of All Sins " pg 990 - Saadhan,

Sudha, Sindhu in Hindi, is a must read for all and any one in this

dilemma. It is on a Video called " Silent Scream " by Dr. Nathenson,

who out of curiosity had take the ultrasound video of the entire

abortion procedure. However after watching that video, neither the

doctor who aborted, nor Dr. Nathenson, ever again returned back to

their clinic. I have the English translation, if there is interest I

could post.

 

Meera Das

Ram Ram

 

---------------------------

 

PRIOR POSTING

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

I have been a member of this group from the past few months

and have been quite influenced by the thoughts expressed by sadhaks.

But I am surprised to see that blame of abortions has been laid only

on the women. I think body of the female is involved but their male

counterparts are also equally responsible for the sin. why the

learned and respected sadhaks are counting sins that will be upon

the female involved in the sin. As I said physical body of the

female is involved and as I have learned form this sat sang only

that body is unreal and nothing it is the soul that is real. I

think the soul of their male counterparts should be equally

responsible for the sin. Can all these learned people who have read

so many scriptures also count the sins that would be upon the males

to discourage them from such acts. I think if the males desist from

misusing female body and are forthcoming in having responsibilities

of the child no woman on earth would like to abort.

 

VANDANA

---------------------------

NOTE: My response had to be lengthy ... pl. wield patience to

examine the same ... Apologies ... Naga.

 

About abortion, its insanity and its sanity

===========================================

 

I am unable to contain myself with this burning social issue on

which enormous confusion is looming around from ages. I decided not

to pursue this further … but, could not help but to get back.

 

There has been considerable debate on the issue of abortion here.

Considerable emotions are thrown in as well. It is good to know that

there are so many souls sensitive enough on the serenity of life.

 

OF COURSE, ABORTION IS A HIDEOUSLY PAINFUL CONCEPT AND A HEINOUS

REALITY TO ANY SANE PERSON.

 

It is not acceptable to me in person as well! The true question here

is, should it not be acceptable at any cost? I have to be pragmatic

and impersonal to address such a grave question.

 

FYI, the burning question is,

 

" Whether a raped woman has right NOT to bear the resultant feutus? "

 

NOT, " Whether abortion is good or not? "

 

I request you all to review your opinions with this in mind. When I

uttered what I did, I put myself in such a woman's position and felt

what it would be like in meditation. If it helps, put yourselves or

your beloved ones in such a position and then think about such

burning questions. Blindly quoting scriptures cannot resolve social

issues. Resonance with the problems with utter transparency can

alone bring resolution to such issues. Therefore, I again urge you

all … put yourselves and/or your beloved ones in such a woman's

condition … and then think. PLEASE.

 

The questions that would bother me if I impose my personal agenda of

anti-abortion are many …

 

How correct is it on my part to insist the woman to forget that she

is also a human being entitled equally to liberty of actions and

freedom of thoughts just like me? Is it not that such victims should

be given more freedom to express themselves? … as they truly want?

 

How correct is it to insist that violation of her core existence is

nothing when compared to some values that I belieive in, whatsoever

it is?

 

Suppose the woman listens and bears the child. She is obviously

tormented by the memory of her violation all through as the feutus

as well as the future child keeps this torment alive by keeping the

memories alive … how can she conduct herself as a mother with joyous

love toward the child when she herself is tormented?

 

How can any value I preach replace her torment? Nobody here seems to

be bothered about what to do the bastard who violated her! All are

throwing stones of religious insistence on the poor woman who is

already suffering from her misfortune!! What difefrence is there

between ones who physically kill such innocent victims with stones

and the ones who are throwing stones of guilt to kill her

psychologically?

 

On the other hand, the child who missed the true love and compassion

of a mother … can my religious insistance take responsibility for

such children's welfare? Can anything, even god, replace the joyous

love of a mother?

 

Suppose the child was born … there is no father … after all, how can

a rapist be a father? Even if he takes such a role, it is worse than

not having one … Have you ever considered the fate of a father-less

child? Can anything such as religion replace a father to a child?

 

What rights do we have to impose motherhood on a woman who is not

ready?

 

What rights do we have to deceive the child off its mother's joyous

love?

 

What rights do we have to dismiss the heavenly affection of a father

to such a child?

 

Afterall, if a child grows in such anarchical circumstances … what

person would it turn out to be? … a depressed vegetable, a synical

contortionist or a cruel criminal … what rights do we have have to

impose such a tax on the rest of the soceity?

 

I have not touched upon many smaller, but yet burningly real, issues

… Who will bear the econmoc burden of supporting the unfortunate

mother and the fatherless child? Who will bear the social burden of

keeping the unfortunate woman and her child happy? Is it worth being

an orphan struggling for a mouthful on the streets? I can not answer

this … an orphan can and should!

 

It is OK … the woman gave birth to a child … what about the rest of

her life? Who will marry her? If not, her whole womanhood is wasted

… in our own terms, it is a bigger sin that she is not bearing

children anymore … unless the religion summons her to keep

reproducing children the same way!!! Should it?

 

After all what use was there by the honourable religion's

intervention in such personal issues? Could it make the woman happy?

Could it make the child happy? Could it contribute to soceity's

health anyway?

 

FINALLY, CAN MY IDEOLOGY OF ANTI-ABORTION SUPERCEDE ALL THE

CONSEQUENTIAL SOCIAL CALAMITIES?

 

Answers to such subtle questions are always circumstantial. The

soceity is ever dynamic and keeps changing its value structure.

Accordingly social solutions should evolve to keep the soceity as

well as its elements in in its healthy dynamic equilibrium.

Reference to scriptures is valuable only if it is interpreted with

the circumstantial sanity in mind. For example, one might have

realized god ... it does not mean that the victim is also god-

realized. One should get into the victim's shoes to experience the

agony and search for the solution there. That requires the thinkers

of the soceity to resonate with the issue. As a spiritual seeker I

accept the highest degree of social responsibility Bhagavan Vyaasa

instructs me with:

 

Yadyadaacharati shreshthastattadev'taro janaah |

Sa yatpramaanam kuru te lokaastadanuvartate ||

 

Because others are probably gullible to just take the advise from

an " apparently intelligent source " … as a spiritual seeker I need to

consider the background of the soceity thoroughly without pushing my

personal ideologies …

 

Therefore … I request you all to put yourselves in the spot,

meditate on the issue ... and, then deliberate. PLEASE.

 

AGAIN, the question is, " Whether a raped woman has right NOT to bear

the resultant feutus? " This question does not raise if she is happy

to bear it on her own.

 

AND, the question is NOT, " Whether abortion is good or not? " –

answer to this is self-evident and does not require further

deliberation.

 

Respects

 

Naga Narayana.

-

 

 

Namaskar!

Personally felt revolted by the question in such a forum. In Gita we

talk of

karmayog. If one has done evil in any one of your even hundred or

thousand lifes

when we were on earth, obviously the same happens by law of Karma

when time is

right by Lord. Even Lord Krishna was not spared of this if one

recalls A bow was

shot on his ankle as some hunter had mistaken him for an animal from

far. The

person concerned was agahast what happened then Lord Krishna pointed

out that

during his incarnation as Lord Ram in earlier Yug he had done the

same to I

think one of the sacred trribe of monkeys , I do not recall exact

name think

ItsSugrir. In fact Lord Krishna was teaching mankind that none is

above law of

karma.In simple lanaguge what one gives comes back to you in some

form or other,

good or bad. That's the spiritual look at the problem From

humanitarian approach

all possible help to be given to victim to come back to normal and

remove the

scars of her traumatic experience, by counselling sessions by lady

doctors over

a period of few months, as the victim me relive it and start

sweating thinking

of it in sleep and scream.

 

If it is woman who is subject to such a heinous crime, she has every

right to

remove the foetus, provided it is before 12 weeks when new life sets

in. Before

that it is a mere lump of body flesh.

 

Request that spiritual things be discussed not such things, as it is

brining

down the level of decorum of Sacred Gita discussions. Nothing will

be gained

spiritually in any way by talking of man's falling moral standards

and brute

like attitude, only change will be we will become lower in

spirtuality. After

all a man is known by company he keeps. Surely there are more better

spiritual

topics than this!! We are nobody to judge others and point fingers

at them, as 4

fingers point back to us. We need to improve ourselves looking at

every

intention of ours like does it havve traced of moha, lobh krodh,

voilence,

rectify oursleves and be fit before we even consider improving

others.

 

Gratitude

 

shirin

 

---------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

 

Jai Hanuman

 

How the " mother " was and how the " mother " has now become - in this

Kaliyuga ! Killing own children ! Indeed - words can't express the

anguish of the soul !! ( Mike Bhaiyya ! I used your words- anguish

of soul !)

 

TU KITNI ACHHI HAI ? TU KITNI BHOLI HAI ? PYAARI PYAARI HAI ! O

MAA ! O MAA !

 

How good are you O Mom ! How docile are you O Mom! Oye Lovely Lovely

Jee ! O Mom ! O Mom!!

 

KI YE JO DUNIYA HAI , YE VAN HAI KAANTO KA , TU FULWAARI HAI ! O

MAA ! O MAA !!

 

That what is this world? This is only a forest of thorns ! You are

mass of flowers in it !! O Mother ! O Mother !!

 

APNA NAHIN TUJHE SUKH DUKH KOI , MAIN MUSKAAYA TU MUSKAAI , MAIN

ROYA TU ROYI !!

 

O Mom! You have no concern for your own pleasures and pains at all !

If I smile , you smile ! If I cry , you cry !!

 

MERE HANSANE PE , MERE RONE PE , TU BALIHAARI HAI ! O MAA , O MAA !!

 

You are ever loving - irrespective of whether I smiled or I cried !

You agree to however I am !! O Mom ! O Mom !!

 

MAA BACHON KI JAAN HOTI HAI ! WOH HOTE HAI KISMAT WALE JINKE MAA

HOTI HAI !!

 

A Mother is the very life force of the child. Fortunate are those ,

whose mother lives long !

 

KITNI SHEETAL HAI, KITNI SUNDAR HAI , NYAARI NYAARI HAI ! O MAA , O

MAA !!

 

How calm ! How adorable !! Always exclusive , super exclusive !! O

Mother ! O Mother !!

 

Hey Daddy the Great ! O Mom !! Kindly save us all from such ghastly

crimes !

 

Agreed, O Binanee S, Jee ! Agreed Vyas NB Jee !! Agreed Mahalaxmi

Maiyyaji !!! Agreed Mira Bahenji !!!! Mike Bhaiyya- sitting with

consort??? - how difficult it can become - when BG 18:32 is

operational?? - for both and each one ? Baba ! Where are we going ?

 

KAHAAN JAA RAHA HAI , TU AIYE JAANE WALE ! ANDHERA HAI MAN KAA DIYA

TO JALALE !!

 

Where are you going O Traveller ? There is darkness all around ! Why

don't you burn the light of " CONSCIENCE " within ?

 

May all understand what is way out of BG 18:32 !!!

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

--------------------------

 

Hari Om

 

Khullarji. Here are some slogans

 

* Silent scream of the fetus - what is my fault O Mummy ? What is my

fault O daddy ?

 

* Don't suck life out of me! Save m ! Save me! Have mercy on me ! I

will bring pleasures in your garden! O mummy - I am your daughter

only!

 

 

* Mera kasoor kya hai ?

 

* O mom ! Please give me birth. My own fate will take care of me

thereafter!

 

* O murderers! You will not even get water in future births what to

talk of food !

 

* O parents ! You enjoyed and I get killed! Is this humanity?

 

* Even a witch leaves at least one house unharmed! Don't kill fetus

in the womb ! Even witches don't do that!

 

* Fetus killing - a frightful disrespect to motherhood !

 

* You want to increase production on one hand and kill producer in

the womb itself- what kind of wisdom is this? What kind of

government is this?

 

* Birth control means converting a female into a prostitute !

 

* Control death first and then think of controlling birth !

 

* Fetus killing is resorted by those who neither believe in

Paramatma, nor in prarbdha (destiny) nor in purushartha!

 

* Getting medical test done, finding female fetus in the womb and

killing ! Is this respect to a woman? Is this a way of giving women

equal rights?

 

* O mothers! Don't lose the power of motherhood for ever! Don't kill

your child! Don't become object of pleasure only for men! Don't

become prostitutes!

 

* Kill fetus and become a non fruit bearing tree forever!

 

* Don't be so merciless O parents ! There will be no one left even

to give you a drop of water in future!

 

* Female fetus killing is the surest method of eliminating mothers

from the planet ! In whose womb you shall sleep in the next birth?

 

* Even bitches, witches and vampires do not kill their own children!

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

 

 

---------------------------

My dandavats to all in this forum...

MY heart breaks when I read the post of Prem Kullar. It is so

terrible that the east has taken up the course of following

activities of the west. I have lived in america my entire life, and

although perhaps I am " privileged " in the sense that I own propety,

car, etc.....I am extremely aware that there is no culture here in

America. No deep rooted traditions, no religious coloring of any

particular faith, and no strong bonds in communities. What little I

could offer in this discussion, is simply WHY? WHY? WHY FOLLOW THE

WEST? Though Sri Krsna's love is everywhere, though daily I

encounter beautiful people with loving hearts, they are suffering so

much in this country. The stress of city life is tremendous.....but

in the country there is no money to be made....(I have done both).

THIS COUNTRY IS DOOMED.....there is very little time left for it due

to its atrocious treatment of the cow, due to abortions, and due to

its policies of usurping and controlling resources of other

nations. WHY, WHY, WHY FOLLOW THE WEST? From the mouth of one

who has lived here my entire life, WAKE UP. I have visited India

twice, both times became completely overwhelmed with love for the

Supreme, to a degree that I am unable to express.....will India give

up all it's accumulated piety to become a hellish pit of

impersonalism and selfishness as the west? I pray not. Again, my

heart aches, what can I say, except all glories to your efforts,

Prem....to stop murder. To open the eyes of those who are blind....

 

In the words of Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta in his purport to bhagavad

Gita, " Those who commit such abominable acts will never see the

light of day again. "

So, the chain of karma will continue.....those killing the fetus

will themselves have to take birth in a womb and be aborted, time

and time again, to pay the price.

 

respectfully,

Mahalaksmi Dasi

------------------------------

Raam ! Raam !! Raam!!!

 

Some slogans for Mr Prem Khullar

 

1. Dont kill me in the womb itself - O mother ! O father ! I

will come with my own fate supporting me in this world !!!

 

2. Efforts of increasing agricultural production and controlling

births is like efforts of increasing milk in mother's breasts and

then not allowing conception !!!

 

3. Oh Mom ! Dear Mom !!! Why I should get killed when you enjoyed ?

 

4. O Father ! O Mother !! Throw me in a dust bin after giving birth!

But don't kill me when i am so helpless !!

 

5. Please! Please save me O parents ! I have capacity to bring

pleasures for you!

 

6. What is my fault? What my fault?? If you don't save me, who

will?

 

7. Even the wildest and the cruelest of animals do not kill their

own children!

 

With sincere Pranaams to all genuine Sadhaks! Shame on those who

advocate such ghastly acts ! SHAME !! SHAME !!!

 

Beenani S.

 

------------------------------

Hari Om

 

Let me now address Khullarji's query.

 

Swamiji used to put up a bill board outside His temporary abode

every where that - Those who have done sin of abortion may please

not bring " bhiksha " for me ! " Bhiksha " - alm of food. Swamiji would

eat food brought by 5 houses every day.

 

In Manusmriti - 4/208 , it is stated that

 

BHROONAN GHAVEKSHITAM CHAIV SANSPRISHTAM CHAAPYUDAKYAYA !

PATATRINA VALEEDHAM CHA SHUNA SANSPRISHTAMEVA CHA !!

 

One should not eat food (1) touched by female in periods (2)

touched by a dog (3) partially eaten by a bird (4) seen by (what to

say " touched by " ) one who ever indulged in abortion !

 

Verse referred by Khullarji is in Parashar Smriti 4/20.

 

YATPAPAM BRAHMA HATYAYA DVIGUNAM GARBHPATNE !

PRAYASHCHITAM NA TASYAATI TASYATYAAGO VIDHIYATE

 

In Brahma Vaivat Purana ( Prakrati Khand, Chapter 2) it is stated

that in the beginning of creation, the basic prakrati ( Shri Radha)

threw her fetus into waters. God immediately cursed her - From now

onwards you will never have a child. Not only that, by your part

whatever " divya " females will get created they also shall be without

a child. Thereafter from the tongue of Basic Nature (Shri Radha) -

Goddess Saraswati incarnated. Later on that Basic Nature got split

into 2 parts. From Left body - Goddess Laxmi incarnated. From Right

body " Radha " incarnated. God also became two. From half left body He

became " Chaturbhuj Vishnu " (Four armed Vishnu) and from right part

He became two armed " Krishna " ! Both Laxmi and Saraswati were

childless. Then from the pours of Krishna countless " Gopas "

incarnated. From pours of Shri Radha countless " Gopis " manifested.

My understanding is that Gopis were infertile, childless !

 

In " Vriddha Suryarun Karma Vipaak " Scripture it is stated:

 

PURVE JANUSHI YA NAARI GARBHA GHAAT KARI HYABHOOT!

GARBHAPAATEN DUKHARTA SAATRA JANMANI JAAYATE !! (477/1)

 

A Lady who had aborted in past lives, suffers in this life on

account of being childless!

 

VANDHYEYA YA MAHABHAAG PRICHHATI SWAM PRAYOJANAM!

GARBHAPAATRATA PURVE JANUSHYATRA PHALAM TVIDAM !!

 

If some Lady asks why she is issueless, infertile in this life?

Answer is due to abortion in the past life. ( 659/1; 856/1; 921/1;

1857/1)

 

GARBHAPATAN PAPADHYA BABHOOV PRAGBHAVEANDAJ !

SAATREVA TEN PAAPEN GARBHESTHERYA NA VINDATI !!

 

O Arun ! One who aborts in prior life, can not bear child in present

life ! ( 1187/1)

 

As simple as that !

 

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

-----------------------------

Woman Power!

by TA Ramesh

 

Without Shakti, Siva cannot do any duty in all the worlds;

Without power, no matter can be active in the Universe;

Without soul, human body cannot survive in the world!

 

Without mother, children cannot grow hale and healthy;

Without wife, husband cannot maintain family and children;

Without woman, man cannot love and live in the world!

 

Beauty, intelligence and love are the aspects of personality

That helps women stand unique in the world;

But, so emotional by nature that it's impossible

For a woman to keep secrets in her heart;

And so, women let the cat out of the bag easily!

 

Hence women show the skeleton kept in the cup-board

Long to anyone who moves them most!

That's why taboos and restrictions imposed on women

Are perhaps rigorous and heartless in many religions,

That are, now, slowly removed by social reforms

By great movement leaders in the modern world.

 

Literature is also full of the Power of Women

As the Main Theme everywhere in the world!

Without the beautiful woman, Helen at the center of the story,

How can Homer's Iliad ever exist in the world?

Without the virtuous woman, Sita in Valmiki's Great Epic,

Ramayana can ever be read so long?

 

Thousands of years, by law and religion,

Women are kept as under-dogs to men;

Women are not just the Weaker Vessels,

Without whose encouraging support

Vessels of Tears won't survive in the world;

Without the knowledge, intelligence and support

Of Woman Power, no family

Can sustain, develop and survive!

 

with regards

Dilip Ravindran

----------------------------

 

PRIOR POSTING

Namaste,

 

Manu's verse ' yatra naaryastu pUjyante ramante tatra devatAh' ( the

gods rejoice/ are happy, where the woman is worshipped) is, I feel,

a powerful message to inculcate respect for women at whichever stage

she may be.

 

Shubhamastu

Anuradha Choudry

------------------------------

-Shree Hari_

 

Clarification: I was reflecting on a place where I once lived long

ago, I was not in poverty but I saw much of it. I would never ever

imply that one should hold a dagger, as it were, at peoples throat,

and demand they follow, rules on their personal behavior , it is the

opposite to what I am. Options can be shown to them, not killing.

 

Many people revert to medicines of some sort or another, for various

conditions, and it often means the death of some organism or other.

In reality many are based on herbs, and a vegetable origin.

In passing my preference is homeopathy.

 

If I get or any person gets bitten by a snake around here, then to

the hospital quick smart, for an antidote, not to is death. (why die

if one can prevent it?)

 

Driven by compassion one would like to see people live life in

comfort and happiness, why not?

 

Yes Divine Feminine 'Shakti', (she is universal), has been suppressed

for thousands of years, and the world has become unbalanced, she has

to sit with her consort once more.

 

My thoughts are exhausted on the subject, I will just read on.

 

With Respect and Divine Love,

 

Mike Keenor

--------------------------------

 

Raam Raam Raam

 

Great Suggestion is that either you dont make efforts to remain

healthy, to cure any illnesses OR we are justified in stopping new

births into this world. Either you control death or we shall control

birth. As simple as that. Why you are taking medicines to cure

fever ? If you are taking medicines, then we shall abort the child.

What shall the child do in this planet? Oh No ! Kill him. Modern

societies cant tolerate this non sense of humans coming on this

planet so fast. Where is the space ? Where is housing for them ? Who

will arrange for their food, water, upkeep, maintenance? How costly

are the living now a days ? We want freedom ! We have come on this

planet, and after applying our minds we have concluded that in

modern societies such non sensical obstacles to sensual pleasures is

unwarranted ! Kill them . Stop them from coming to this world. Now

that we have come into this planet, where is the need for any other?

It is these new arrivals that has made this world so bad, and

unlivable. No , Sorry ! We cant let them enter. Kill the fetus.

Simply kill ! All problems are only because of that only ! Kill the

fetus in the womb itself. Suck the life out of it. Let us enjoy. We

never wanted the child. We just wanted to enjoy the human life. From

where this conception hascome ? Oh , dont worry kill the fetus ! We

are modern, we are not orthodox people. If we dont stop human beings

from coming to this world, then what shall be the difference between

us and animals. Animals mate only when there is season for mating.

They have to exercise restraints and disciplines- not the human

beings. Animals are animals only because they mate only when there

is a season. We are not animals. We are human beings. We shall mate

anytime we want - morning evening, day, night, January, April, June

any time, any month. What a fun ! What an obstacle to this fun is

this conception. That is spoil sport. Kill the fetus. After all we

are privileged, we are intelligent. We can invent devices to kill

them anytime. Science is pretty advanced. Vacuum cleaners. Suck the

life out of that creature. What the fetus thought we are so stupid.

Gone are those old concepts of father, mother, protector ! Non

sense. We have mind, intellect, beautiful body. This conception

is undesirable - a simple nuisance! We have thought over it, all

problems are only because of increase in population. From where the

additional income will come? From where we shall feed the children ?

No ! Not Possible!! Our leaders also say so. Entire economy is in

mess only because of this over population. Enjoy mating, but kill

fetus. Where is the need for child here ? Shall we eat ourselves or

get entangled in arranging food for them ? Are we so stupids ? Come

On ! Either you control death or we shall abort !!! We are modern

humans. Kill the fetus. No arguments. Kill ! If you want to live

peacefully - murder ! Or Control Death !

 

Raam Raam Raam !

 

Beenani S

 

------------------------------

Dear Vipra Bandhavaha, evam itare suhridaha,

We must avoid debates and discussion on which modern educated and so

called Western feminist women will have strong view. It is a pity

that they could destroy what they cannot create. See the ten per

cent of married couples who long and yearn for children and are not

blessed so. Think deeply, do not impose your views on others.

Vriddha Divakarosmi Bhoh.

 

------------------------------

Jai Hanuman

 

People often say if the population is not controlled there will be

shortage of eatables on the planet. This poverty , mal nutrition are

only because of population growth. Hence population control is the

answer for all these menaces confronting humanity. Wrong are they!!

Patently wrong ! Absolutely wrong !

 

Taat Shree ( Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj) said that kind of actions

which so called intelligentia advocate to support population

control, kind of sins which are increasingly getting legalised -

what to say eatables and food grains , one will not even get water

as a result .

 

Oh What a pity Jee ! A human being wants to live comfortably and in

order to do that, he wishes/wants to put obstacles in another human

being, in it's being born ! Is that humanity ? That is how you feel

one can bring happiness, order, harmony, pleasure in human life?

Such arguments are in reality a garbage advanced by power hungry

stupid politians to justify mis-management of existing resources and

mislead. Economics !! Sheer Nonsense !

 

Indeed the intellect can get into the spell of what is stated in BG

18:32. This is Kaliyuga Jee. This is how at the last phase of time

cycle, the humans can become. It will worsen in times to come. Ever

heard the term " cannibalism " ? Humans are heading towards the same.

 

Get liberated Jee, Realise Paramatma, O Dear Sadhaks Jee, as fast

as you can. Future will unfold else the circumstances and scenes

which you will never want to see again. Who have been left?. Those

who from Satyuga, to Treta to Dwapar till today have always set

example of BG 18:32. Most of us are in that zone only. Hurry up

Please Jee!

 

See how do they perceive - Hell with your coming on this planet, we

have come first and now we shall not allow you to come ! We will

enjoy the physical relationship, privilege, without letting you

come in Jee. Don't you know who we are Jee? Humans , Humans ! We

are humans !

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

--------------------------

------------------------------

 

Hari Om

 

I am in perfect agreement with Mahalaxmi Dasi and Mike Keenor. Of

course Mira Dass was immaculate as usual, completely relevant and

absolutely correct. Frankly, I can't say so for most of the views of

Mr Naga Narayana. If he wants as a sadhak to know as to why I feel

so , we can discuss briefly through short notes the reasons thereof.

 

Mike- you are right in most of your observations regarding birth

control pills also. That is not bad. But good is copulation timing

and male condoms. Better is " control " over the very desire and the

Best is mating only for giving birth ! ONLY WITH THAT PURPOSE !!

 

Reply of B Sathyanarainji is 100 percent right. No doubt about

that ! Mahalaxmi Dasi's response is one of the best write ups on the

subject , I have ever read.

 

Certainly Sobhanaji. Shame on the males can only be and rightfully

be attributed by females who are 1000 times more able, better and

powerful than males. All powers arise from female - Goddess

Shakti . All glories and happiness in this world arises out of

Goddess Laxmi- again a female. Mother Nature is a female.. You are

entitled to say so ! Sanatan Dharma is in favour of your entitlement

to do so ! My compliments as a sadhak .

 

Operations of males/females so that there is no conception is

extremely bad act. You get disentitled to perform many rituals and

you don't return to God and atmosphoric airs, what was received by

you - for the reasons best known to you only.

 

I have heard this from elders (don't remember if I read somewhere)

that Goddess Mahalaxmi had aborted a child in some human life. Even

after having Lord Naraina (Lord Vishnu) as her husband, she could

never become mother again. As simple as that !!

 

How a man is a man, if he has no powers to become father, has no

reproductive capacity ? Just How? How a woman is a woman if she has

no powers to become mother, has no reproductive capacity ? Just how?

 

But Mike , I really could not understand any relevance of your

reference of over population at the near by place. Really ! If you

mean to say that over population is not desirable and must be

controlled by any one , then I beg to differ with you. We can have a

deliberation on this. Divine deliberation ! Real Satsanga !! Example

setting form of satsanga !

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

----------------------------

 

I agree with you Shobhnaji, thousand percent. Shame on us to keep

treating the women folk with deep rooted disrespect.

 

To others, this is a social issue. And hence does not befit this

forum. Therefore, I desist to respond to the other queries

raised ... Mahabharata and Bhagavadgita are as useful to the society

as to a spiritual aspirant. But … that needs a different forum.

Therefore, let me be brief ...

 

To Dasiji, Vyaasji, Mike and others who have commented on the

feutus's freedom to take life … my question is regarding the freedom

of the person living. Our poor brothern in India has paid heavily on

the rape, violation and enslavement for more than a millenium thanks

to the wrongly preached spiritual values in social life. Again, the

problem is not in the great spiritual values … but, in the

preaching. Bhagavan Vyaasa warns sternly … Na buddhidhedam janayet …

never preach these values … they are only for seekers. Because,

those who do not understand the depth of concepts such as Ahimsa

(non-violence) and Shaanti (peace) would let their natural cowardice

reign their lives. It is the responsibility of a saint to

acknowledge that the world cannot be saintly. Whoever tried to

spread sainthood in the history has achieved nothing but social

fragmentation … sainthood never appeared in humanity so far.

Therefore, if at all spirituality helps, it should let the humans be

just humans first from social perspective.

 

Dasiji feels that the death is not a Godly act while birth is a

Godly act. If their exists a devil against the God, I can only pity

such appreciation of God. Good and bad are our creation in our

illusions. Just because we love birth and hate death, we cannot

project the same ignorance on God. Birth and death are both God's

gifts to us. We should treat both the same way with absolute

respect. If we cannot, at least we should not wield hypocracy to

suit our beliefs.

 

God is not their to protect anybody but has provided everything to

do so oneself. Krishna never fights ... Arjuna has to. If God " had

to " protect, he would have protected the violation of freedom of a

woman in the first place. One who suffers has all the right to

respond to one's own suffering in one's own way. Spirituality cannot

trespass its compassion to preach either way. Such judgment will be

as lopsided as of the Bramhin who tried to interfere with an eagle's

attempt to eat its food, a snake.

 

Vyasji has quoted Karna … the goodness captive in the bad … nothing

but a slave to the bad … committed to serve the bad till death. What

is the use of such goodness? In fact, more harmful to the society!

 

Again, the society should be The Bhima who pulls out the heart of

the beastly violaters enroute. Incidentally, he does not need

Krishna's intervention because Krishna's approval is inherent in all

his actions.

 

Respects.

 

Naga Narayana

 

---------------------------

Namaste

 

DAADU DUNIYA BAAWARI , FIKAR KARE GELI !

ROTI DESI RAMJEE, DOPAARA PELI !!

 

Said Sage Daaduji

 

Mad has gone this world ! Absolutely crazy. It is worrying

unnecessarily out of stupidity. God will provide meals to you before

noon time.

 

Mr Naga Narayana - Worry not ! There is one creator, preserver and

destroyer , called, Paramatma ( Ever heard this name?) who will take

care through Mother Nature about birth, death, fame, illfame,

happiness and sorrow.

 

Said Sage Vashishtha to Bharatji

 

AHO BHARAT BHAAVI PRABAL, BILAKH KAHAT MUNIRAAJ !

HAANI LAABH JEEVAN MARAN, JAS APJAS VIDHI HAATH !!

 

O Bharat ! Destiny is very powerful. Profit, Loss, Death, Birth,

Fame and Ill fame are controlled by Destiny only.

 

Stop giving reasons. Simply dont disturb the Laws of Nature . You

have no rights to do that. What if our fathers also thought in the

similar manner? How we would have been able to become humans then?

Dont we run to a doctor if urine stops ? We are that weak ! Why

should we take responsibility of Creator on our weak shoulders?

Stupidity is that- Isnt it ?

 

HAM EK KHILONE HAIN, EK AISE KHILAADI KE !

JISKO ABHI SADIYON TAK YEH KHEL RACHAANA HAI !!

 

We are toys in the hands of that player, who is yet to continue this

world for centuries and centuries.

 

Chesta Vinod

-----------------------------

Priya Sadhaks

 

Sobhanaji has indeed expressed herself naturally and therefore

powerfully. But only in writing " Shame on you all " ! On balance

there was nothing .

 

Madam ! None is bad here!! Change the vision and you shall start

seeing the ultimate good here ! Try it !

 

Why inflict any shame on any one?

 

At the lotus feet of all of you and of Paramatma

 

MM Purohit

 

 

===============================================================

 

PRIOR POSTING

My dandavats to all in this forum....

 

In regard to the concept of taking pills to prolong health being

" hypocritical " if one is against pills to stop birth......I am

shocked that one with knowledge would dare equate the two concepts.

Doesn't the Supreme Lord appear as Dhanvantari, to give knowledge of

herbs to help human beings? Where is there any reference where the

Supreme Lord would say, " yes, abort this child " ? Anyone can say

anything, but one must analyze according to scripture, if he or she

is to truly benefit the cause of humanity.

Also, I believe it is a myth that there is overpopulation. I

truly believe that mother Bhumi can expand her form, if needed, she

is alive....she is not dead matter. The problem today is

mismanagement of the resources. In the time of Prthu Maharaj,

another incarnation of the Lord mentioned in the Srimad Bhagavatm,

mother earth also withheld fruits and vegetables and grains, as there

was so little sacrifice in the human hearts taking place. On the

threat of Prthu Maharaj, she agreed to produce abundantly. Are

there those who think these stories are simply folk lore?

Again, anyone can say anything, but the laws of material nature

will act, regardless. If I say that the sun will rise in the west,

I can say it every day til I leave this world, but will it happen?

No, it will not. I cannot change the laws of nature. Killing is

sinful, attempting to prevent a soul from entering a womb using any

birth control is sinful, and reactions will come whether one

believes or not. This is the law of karma. Otherwise, if this were

not true, it would stand to reason that there is nothing wrong with

unlimited illicit sexual activity. Yes, just use birth control,

have abortions, enjoy your body all you choose...IS THERE ANYONE WHO

CAN SUPPORT THIS TYPE OF MENTALITY FROM A RELIGIOUS OR DEVOTION TO

GOD STAND-POINT? I don't believe it is possible.

Also, it may be true that the perpetrator of rape is a

rascal....but a woman cannot justify her act of murdering an unborn

child merely because a male chose to act sinfully. The two sins do

not balance each other out. Women must return to their role of

being protectors of society, of righteousness...with no " attitude "

of hatred toward the ignorance of males, otherwise the love and grace

of Laksmi will never again flow abundantly on this planet.

The " blame game " should not be for those of saintly character.

 

Respectfully submitted,

Mahalaksmmi Dasi

-------------------------------

-Shree Hari-

I found the comments by Naga Narayana and Meera Das absorbing, the

full spectrum as it were.

OK there was a program on TV here, that showed an abortion, not

simulated, the real thing, the apparatus used was a sort of vacuum

device the sucked the life from the womb.

As I watched this, I experienced something unusual, I had no

emotions, it was as if I were stone, no anger no horror, I was in the

presence of demonic evil, somehow my emotions retreated, my defenses

were up, sometimes evil can be so great it seems, that words and

reactions have no place.

What I saw, I never want to see again,.

Preventing conception, is not killing of life, there is timing of

copulation, condoms, barriers, and birth control pills; they do not

abort, I personally think that the birth control pill may have

dangers, as it interferes with normal bodily functions.

However if the pill prevents the resort to abortion, then so be it.

If a woman is raped, the fetus is not the intruder, the brute who

raped her is. Punish him by the full force of the law, not the fetus.

(I understand in some countries, it's almost impossible to be charged

with rape, and the victims can be punished, how terrible!)

 

I have personally witnessed, the stinking mire that over population,

poverty, animals and humans living in close proximity, the over

powering smell of camels, goats , and sewage, and what it does to

people.

 

So on the subject of abortion, I see strength in Meera Das point of

view, and on birth control, I think Naga Narayana, has sound

arguments.

 

With Respect and Divine Love.

 

Mike Keenor

------------------------------

What about the karma of the men who rape? All the views expressed

here do not take into account that women are human beings, have

feelings and have the right to perhaps cleanse themselves of the

sins committed by men. Abortion is the only way to cleanse such sin

committed by men, who are " protectors " and hide behind religious

views.

 

Shame on all of you.

Shobhna S. Kumar

-------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Hari Om

 

Under no circumstance, even if the circumstance is life

threatening - the sin of abortion should not be done.

Any happenning in our life is outcome of our own karma meted out by

God's laws through nature. Law of Karma is precise and accurate in

its operation.

 

Every incidence has kripa (benevolence) of God hidden in it. Every

adverse incident provides you an opportunity to get closer to God by

right conduct and right utilisation of given circumstance. The human

birth has not been given for petty comforts and worldly pleasures.

It is a challenging, sadhan ( striving for God Realisation) form of

life. The austerity resulting from given adverse circumstances is

God sent/willed as per our own prior deeds.One must take such God

sent austerities as an opportunity for spiritual advancement. One

must perceive the human life as a special form of life- not to enjoy

worldly pleasures but to happily do one's duty without caring for

one's right and another's duty. Job is already on hand, of giving

birth to the innocent child, the duty is already on hand. The

aggrieved should take it so, give birth to the child, and thereafter

she may handover the child to orphanage etc.

 

One must be " careful in " doing " , and happy in " happening "

(result) " . No circumstance can force you to commit new sins.

 

Sanatan Dharma Scriptures deal with every type of circumstance.

Similar circumstance was faced by Kunti also. Kunti was mother of

Karna conceived when she was unmarried through Sun. She gave birth

to the child and silently surrendered the child to the mother

nature. Karna went on to be a part of history forever. Karna earned

admiration of all , including from Lord Krishna. He was one of the

greatest philanthropist the Indian soil has ever produced. He

redefined the art of giving/donating/ renunciation. He was " tyaag

murti " . Karna was the eldest son of Kunti- elder than

Yuddhister/Bhim/Arjuna/Nakul/Sahdev.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

--------------------------

HELLO SIR,

Your own conscience is the best guide. follow it. In so doing see

that your action does not harm the other person. Follow the maxim "

do unto others what you expect from others " That's what the Mahatma

Gandhi said, " I look to my inner self for guidance when I am in

trouble " . So said Lord Buddha too.

Ramachander Homma

--------------------------

Dear Sadaks,

If a lady conceives, it is not her wish or effort. Many women even

after marriage do not concieve. Why? The child to be born is

predecided by the Karma of that soul. In certain cases the child

gets aborted naturally, which is no way connected with anybody or

Sin.

But to abort a child is wrong. The cause is abortion and the effect

is the lady who aborted the child, will have rebirth as lady who

will have no issues (children). This lady who aborted can even be a

tree in her next birth, where the tree does not yield fruits. The

rebirth depends on once Paapas (sins) and Puniyas (virtues).

Referance Garbopanashid.

B.Sathyanarayan

--------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

I resonate totally with the views expressed by Naga Narayanji on

this subject.

No action in itself is right or wrong without regard to

circumstances surrounding it.

An action such as abortion may be right in one set of circumstances

and wrong in another set of circumstances. In otherwords, actions

are not inherently right or wrong.

There are many examples in daily life where we can see this to be

true.

I think that right action comes to one who is steadfast on the path

of righteousness (dharma), and seeks all decisions from the Totality

of Being(THAT) and never as an individual! In such cases interest of

all parties involved in actions are duly considered by THAT. Such

actions are God taking actions through people for people.

Namaskaras........Pratap Bhatt

 

--------------------------

 

PRIOR POSTING

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

As our scriptures says - if we believe that we are the Atma (Soul,

Spirit, Individual Consciousness), and if we also believe that human

life is the rarest form of birth (1 of 8.4 million species in this

Universe), and that only in this human form of life, one can attain

freedom from all bondages, one can realize their true nature, one

can attain salvation, one can realize eternal bliss, one can develop

love of God… etc., then common sense says that what Swamiji says is

without any doubt to be accepted - i.e. we have no right to stop

the evolution of a Soul, by creating roadblocks in it's evolution

cycle. This roadblock that we place on another souls' progress, to

not allow it an opportunity for salvation, will definitely have it's

consequences and is a grave sin. Most of the times, we sin due to

desire for our own happiness, self protection, comforts, betterment,

selfish reasons, and if we look at it from that perspective, also

the reason for abortions are also mostly for the same reasons, for a

little convenience and happiness, we are destroying another life,

and not allowing it to be born as a human, a soul that could have

realized the Self / God, and attain salvation etc.

 

Swamiji has said it is briefly addressed in Gita, under demoniac

tendencies. Gita 16:9 " Prabhavantyu grakarmaanah kshayaaya

jagatohitaah. " " Not believing in the eternal soul, the demoniac

natured appear as enemies of the world, for its destruction. " Gita

16:9

Unknowingly we destroy and kill helpless lives, and are hoping the

we will be benefited. How can we be benefited? How can we attain

salvation?

" Jaan-jaanker mook, asamarth jivon ki hatyaa karte ho aur caahete ho

ki hamaaraa bhallaa ho jaaye; kaise ho jaayegaa? kalyaan kaise ho

jaayegaa ?

 

For their selfish motives, such demoniac people indulge in violence,

murder and usurpation etc., without thinking of the pain, which they

inflict upon others.

" Dharmasarvasva suno, aur sunker dhaaran kar lo. Jo aacharan apnese

pratikool ho, usko dusero ke prati mat karo. "

 

Looking at a broader more Universal perspective, who truly takes

care of the 8.4 millions species? Do we? What arrogance to think

that we alone have the right and the burden of responsibility for

that conceived fetus? In many countries, one has to wait for years

and pay a huge amount, to adopt a child. Our ego and selfishness is

causing us to not give this opportunity to another soul and to

instead sin.

 

Not only that, many women who visited Swamiji after having undergone

several abortions, found their bodies to be significantly weakened,

undergoing several irreversible health problems. (I am truly

unaware of the medical and health implications, as this is based

only on experiences / problems that women shared with Swamiji).

 

After listening to Swamiji / reading his thoughts from books for a

number of years, after listening to the way He responded to question

and answers, there was never a question that he could not answer to

one's satisfaction. He had thought about everything he shared,

deeply for a long time, before he even uttered a word or stated

something firmly. In my opinion, Swamiji and all the major

religions of the world that believe in pro-life cannot be wrong!

 

Hope this helps.

Meera Das

Ram Ram

-------------------------------

Sanity and Sanctity of Birth-Control and Abortion

 

Many religions are committed to the propaganda of the idea of anti-

abortion and anti-birth-control strongly even in the so-called

advanced societies such as West. I strongly advocate that this is an

extremely lopsided vision from both social as well as natural

persepctives. By the way, spirituality has nothing to do with it!

 

We hear a lot like " birth is God's Grace and hence we should not

intefere; any such intereference is the greed, selfishness and

arrogance of humans against God's Grace " . I agree with it completely

ONLY IF it is also appreciated in tandem that " death is also God's

Grace and hence we should not interfere with that as well " . Death is

part of the creation as much as the birth. Is it OK to exercise our

ego to interfere with THAT when we are trying all we could do to

avoid/postpone the death? Isn't it the same greed and arrogance in

action in this case as well? Are we not disgracing ourselves by not

believing God's will in our death??

 

My suggestion to the birth-promoters is, " do not take a single pill

to interfere with God's will in the deseases, aging as well as in

death. Then, you are entitled to claim that one should not

interefere with God's will. " Taking all medicinal help to promote

our survival rate and life span on one hand and rejecting the same

for birth control on the other hand is hypocracy. Such attitude is

utterly (1) anti-nature resulting in lopsided population growth of

one single species on this earth; and (2) anti-society resulting in

undue stress of life demands overwhelming the resources. As far as

death control is excercised, one should allow the birth control to

balance the act in any soceity. That is social sanity and that is

natural sanctity.

 

Again, promoting one's material life on this earth is not at all the

agenda of Bhagavad Gita. The agenda is to cleanse the life we have

already taken … to learn how to live it well and how to leave it as

well. That does not remove any of our social responsibilities and

natural obligations. One can get liberated from the social

responsibilities by accepting the nature – birth and death alike. On

the other hand, one cannot get liberated from the natural

obligations till one lives.

 

Also, abusing the spiritual texts for social promotion is incorrect

and can lead to become frantically religious and religiously

fanatic. Bhagavaan Vyaasa advocates to never preach spirituality to

one who cannot appreciate it for one with half-baked knowledge will

lead to natural catastrophies such as population explosion which

eventually culminates in social catastrophies such as wars.

 

Na buddhibhedam janayet agnyaanaam karmasanginaam |

Joshayet sarva karmaani vidvaanyuktassamaacharan ||

 

For social issues such as abortion one should adapt common sense and

social awareness that reflects the circumstantial reality. If the

woman is forced to bear a feutus against her will, she has all the

rights to terminate the same. I request the same preachers to catch

hold of the male beasts that cause such distress in the fisrt place

and terminate them instead. Nobody has any right to interfere in

this matter when one cannot share the burden of the socio-economical

implications let alone the physio-psychological distress imposed

upon the victim. Why should an innocent woman suffer because of a

beastly male? Society should be The Bhima who pulls out the heart of

such beasts enroute. Incidentally, he does not need Krishna's

intervention because Krishna's approval is inherent in all his

actions.

 

Respects.

 

Naga Narayana

------------------------------

Dear Sir ,

 

You mentioned the shloka:

" Yat paapam brahmahattyaa dvigunam garbhapaatane; Praayashchitam ne

tasyaasti tatsyaasyaago vidhiyate " (Parasharsmriti 4:20).

 

Please let me know if you know any more details about this Shloka.

 

I am planning to put up boards with slogan in the villages with this

verse picture of Lord Krishna and Radha and duly translated thus :

 

BRUNE HATYA JO KARE HOGA MAHAAPAP

VIDHATA KA USSKO LAGEGA BHANKAR SHRAAP.

 

Any idea of better slogan? or any other thoughts on this?

 

Prem Khullar

-------------------------------

 

PRIOR POSTING

Hare Krishna

 

Answer to Question 1

 

Prashantji, I am pasting the answer of your question from Swamiji's

book " Sadhan-Sudha-Sindhu " page 960.

 

Q. If it becomes compulsory for woman to abort the baby due to an

infection, then what should she do?

 

A. She will definitely incur the sin of abortion. For protecting

woman people abort the baby but this should not be done. What has to

happen will indeed happen. If the woman has to die then even after

abortion she will die. If she is destined to live longer then she

will not die even if she chooses not to abort. Whatever may be the

cause of death, it will only arrive when the time is up. So abortion

should never be done.

 

Q. Should abortion be carried out in case an unmarried woman becomes

pregnant?

 

A. That boy and girl should marry who had pre-marital sex. If the

marriage is not possible then also abortion should not be done. The

girl should nurture that child and give him/her to an orphanage or

give it to someone who wants to adopt a child.

 

If a woman is raped then the rapist will incur terrible sin. If the

woman has derived pleasure from that then she will also incur sin.

All sins emanate from sensual desire. So the amount of sin will be

in direct proportion with the pleasure derived by that woman. If the

woman did not take any pleasure then she will not incur sin.

 

If an unmarried woman is pregnant then her parents will also incur

sin for their carelessness. It is a must for parents that they take

utmost care of their daughter and not give her excessive

independence.

 

Q. If society comes to know about it then she will become infamous

and no one will marry her?

 

A. After committing sin one has to bear defamation. Abortion,

suicide and running from home. In comparison to these three sins,

it's better to bear the defamation. If no one is willing to marry

her then she should reside in her father's house and spend her life

in worshipping God. This will be penance for her which will destroy

her sins.

 

Q. If a married woman is raped and she becomes pregnant then what

should be done?

 

A. It is better for her to be quiet. If husband comes to know about

it then he should also remain quiet. The couple's slience is best

for them. In reality, one should always be attentive from the

beginning so that such kind of situations do not arise. My

suggestion is not for abortion because it is an ultimate sin

(MahaPaap).

 

Answer to Question 2

 

Shri Khullarji, you are indeed doing great social service by

rescuing women from committing sins like abortion etc. This society

needs people like you.

 

Gita doesn't specifically mention about abortion. It strikes the

root of sin i.e. desire and God has spoken at length on it. Read

Gita (3-36, 37 and 16-21, 23, 24)

 

Premji, Gitapress has published 2 books.

 

Matrishakti Ka Ghor Apman (Code 420)

Desh Ki Vartaman Dash Aur Uska Parinam (Code 617)

Check the details at www.gitapress.org. You can use these 2 books

for your purpose.

 

These 2 books are also included in a 1000 page book Sadhan-Sudha-

Sindhu (Code 465). It is a compilation of more than 40 books of

Swamiji's teachings.

 

Thanks,

 

Hare Krishna

Varun P. Paprunia

-------------------------------

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

From Gita Talk Moderator:

 

" Sadhan, Sudha, Sindhu " in Hindi by Swami Ramsukhdasji, can be

viewed online for free at:

 

http://www.swamiramsukhdasji.org/swamijibooks/pustak/pustak1/html/sad

hansudhasindhu/main.html

Ram Ram

 

-------------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, This passage has moved me deeply. One should still

think about the fact that abortion is wrong. Firstly when a woman or

a man, yes a man can be raped by a woman for his seed. QUESTION 1:

If raped, the fact is the baby formed is not at fault. One does not

have the right to kill a child just because of that fact.

What would be such a case when rape occurs and the child is aborted?

your comments please. Prashanth

---------------------

Dear Sir I read the SADAK dt 26 september 2008 regularly . I read

the following verse in your letter dated 27/09/08.

QUESTION 2: In the Paaraashersmriti - " Yat paapam brahmahattyaa

dvigunam garbhapaatane; Praayashchitam ne tasyaasti tatsyaasyaago

vidhiyate " Can you correctly guide me as to where do I find this

writing below, also does Gita make any reference to this? I wish to

quote it in my meetings in the villages against the female feticide.

(aborting female fetus)

thanks, Kindly do clarify and oblige,

prem khullar

-------------------------------

ADDITIONAL QUERY:

 

Do any of you have any more details on this shloka from Paaraasher

Smriti - " Yat paapam brahmahattyaa dvigunam garbhapaatane;

Praayashchitam ne tasyaasti tatsyaasyaago vidhiyate " . Kindly let me

know any other scriptures where abortion is mentioned as sinful.

Gita shloka does not clearly point to abortion per se. The source

is important, therefore do provide it, along with the quote /

shloka.

 

I am in process of creating slogans for big display boards for

villages and cities of Haryana where female feticide is spreading

like wild fire. Please suggest good slogan ! Please help

immediately.

Sincerely - Prem Khullar.

--------------------------------

 

:Shree Hari:

Ram Ram

 

26th September, 2008, Friday

Ashwin Krishna Dvaadashi, Vikram Samvat 2065, Shukravar

 

" Mana jaane sab baat, jaan boojh avaguna kare

kyon chaahat kusalaat, ker deepak koonye pade. "

 

At present times such terrible and fearsome sins are taking place,

that simply by listening, one's hair stands on ends, eyes become

filled with tears, and heart is deeply moved ! Ram Ram Ram, what

terrible unjustice, what fearsome sins are taking place, but your

attention is not going there at all ! Human body is said to be the

rarest of all all forms of life -

" Durlabho maanushyo deho dehinaam shunabhangurah " (Srimad Bhagavat

11:2:29)

" Labdhvaa sudurlabhmidam bahusambhvaante,

maanushyamarthdamnityampeeh dheerah " (Srimad Bhagavat 11:9:29)

" bade bhaag maanushya tanu paava. Sur durlabh sab granthnhi

gaava. " (Manas 7:43:7)

 

Such a rare human body, is being destroyed at the very beginning.

It is being cut up along with the jeev, and this is such a great

offense, it is such injustice, it is a terrible sin! My mind feels

immense pain, it is feeling great distress, but what to do! The

human body by which one can realize God, to not allow that human

body to even be born, and to destroy it, it is the ultimate sin !

To not allow some soul the opportunity to receive a human body, to

not allow that human body to even be born, to take medication from

the beginning and destroy it, through abortion or any other means.

One has stooped so low - not only to think about going to hell

themselves, but at the same time not even allowing another soul the

opportunity for upliftment, for benediction ! Now what is one to

do? Who to share this with? And who will listen to my point? Is

there no one listening ?

 

For ascetics it has been written in the scriptures to not travel

much during " Chaturmaas " (four months in a year during the rains).

Because during these month, due to the rains, every seed grows into

a sappling, which later grows into a tree. By extensive traveling,

walking, these seedlings come under the feet and are destroyed.

Therefore during this four month period, the ascetics do not walk

and roam around much, so that unknowingly no violence is done to any

life form. In Bhagavat it has been said, that if you wish to gain

victory over violence, then reduce the movement of the body -

" hinsaa kaayaadhyaneehayaa. " (Bhagavat 7:15:23). When there is

so much thought put into non-violence around immovable things, then

what to speak on the subject of movable beings? But nowadays, the

best of all movable life forms, better than even the devatas, the

human body, is being contemplated for destruction, what a state of

affairs we are in ! (to be continued)

 

From " Saadhan, Sudhaa, Sindhu " pg 946 in Hindi by Swami Ramsukhdasji

 

For full online discourses in Hindi, please visit Swami

Ramsukhdasji's website. http://www.swamiramsukhdasji.org

--------------------------

, " sadhak_insight "

<sadhak_insight wrote:

>

> QUESTION 1: If raped, the fact is the baby formed is not at fault.

> One does not have the right to kill a child just because of that

> fact. What would be such a case when rape occurs and the child is

> aborted?

> QUESTION 2: Paaraashersmriti - " Yat paapam brahmahattyaa

> dvigunam garbhapaatane; Praayashchitam ne tasyaasti tatsyaasyaago

> vidhiyate " – where to find this reference?

> QUESTION 3: Does Gita make any reference to abortion?

> QUESTION 4: Please provide helpful slogans for Bill-boards.

> QUESTION 5: Please also elaborate on sins accumulated by males

> responsible for the rape?

>

> --------------------------------

>

> NEW POSTING

>

> -Shree Hari-

>

> I thought I would write down a few words that came to me when

> reflecting on such a diabolical thing. Prem Khullarji, I am truly

> sorry I do not have the knowledge to help with the sacred

scriptures.

> It is my absolute desire that Bhagwan will guide you, and bless

you.

> All I can do is bow my head in sorrow.

>

> Do not murder me mumma dear.

> I have joy to give, and laughter to give,

> loving arms to embrace you.

> Please do not make a silent space.

> Mumma, I implore you.

>

> With Respect and Divine Love,

>

> Mike Keenor

> ------------------------------

>

> Raam Raam Raam

>

> Vandanaji's message was really soul toching and so was of

Shirin.

> If we can understand a simple fact that human life is not given to

> us for any enjoyment or pleasures and that this life is a " KARMA

> YONI' or " SADHAN YONI " where you have to do your duties only- the

> entire discussion gets summed up there. If we can even understand

> that this entire creation is a " lila of God " the thorn of

> dissatisfaction felt by females gets removed. If we can understand

> and appreciate the fact that there is one accurate and precise Law

> of Karma in operation in this world , a Law which is blind,

ruthless

> but just and equitable, a law which is governing the the entire

> humanity, then we shall understand as to why one is given the

birth

> as a male or female , or as to why it is the duty of female to

> protect the fetus. We are in fact considering the Laws made by

> Paramatma and are finding faults with each other. Males are not

> happy with females and vice versa. We dont even resist from

finding

> faults with the creation and the creator. IF ONLY WE BELIEVE

EITHER

> IN PARAMATMA, OR IN PURUSHARTHA OR IN PRABDHA- such bitterness

shall

> not arise. But we are looking at the world as REAL, as a PLEASURE

> GIVING CREATION and hence this state of affairs. Why blame males ?

> Some body has to conceive. What if child becomes parentless on the

> day 1? Does it not happen? What if another catastrophe occurs ?

> UNLESS WE BELIEVE AND ACCEPT THAT THIS WORLD IS A

MIRAGE/DREAM/LILA

> OF GOD and our role is to play our duties diligently and realise

> Paramatma - aeons will pass but we shall be no where near the

> PEACE !!! If some female has been wronged, raped - she has not

> incurred any sin. The male has incurred sin. Only when she

because

> someone has done injustice to her, does the same thing with

another

> innocent soul- she sins, not before. Hence -Vandanaji -scriptures

> advice females against abortion.

>

> Females can draw the solace from the fact that the brute males

shall

> not be spared similarly from the wrongs done to females. Law of

> Karma will hit them more brutally. There is no need of quoting

> scriptures to substantiate that. It goes without saying. When our

> role is to do our own DUTY only - arising out of whatever

> circumstances Law of Karma/Paramatma/Mother Nature has presented

to

> us in this otherwise DUKHALAYAM ASHASHWATHAM - then what remains

to

> be the issue ? ACCEPT THE CIRCUMSTANCES AS IT IS, DO YOUR DUTY,

DONT

> LOOK AT OTHER'S DUTY, REALISE GOD and ENJOY THE COMPANY OF

PARAMATMA

> FOREVER. Leave these worldly brutes, preachers, to their own fate.

> GET YOURSELF OUT OF IT. That is all

>

> Pranaam to all sadhaks

>

> Beenani S

>

> ---------------------------

> My dandavats to all in this forum,

> In response to the questions posed below, I would like to attempt

to

> address point by point the suggestions made by our sadhak, Naga

> Narayan.

>

> Please explain, how one can deal with the issue of life/death in

an

> impersonal way? (as you have begun your presentation saying, " I

> have to be pragmatic and impersonal..... " ) Is this truly

something

> that makes any sense? How does one discuss the issue of a mother

> killing her child in an admittedly impersonal way? Something is

> very wrong here, and I am not saying this to find fault. Please,

> kindly ask yourself this question, How is it possible to state, " I

> will deal with this issue in an impersonal way " ....when the very

> nature of the subject is extremely personal, so much so that many

> woman cannot live without their child? How can a man know the

grief

> and pain and heartache a mother would feel when her child is taken

> away? Only if he is extremely mature on an emotional level,

having

> undergone very deep growth either in this life or previous, will

he

> be ALLOWED to know this pain. It is not an easy thing for a man

to

> know the depth of a womans' pain.

>

> In the story of Prahlad Maharaj, we learn from the Srimad

> Bhagavatam that the demigods had made a decision to arrest the

> mother of Prahlad, while he was still in the womb, and when the

> child was born, to kill him. Because his father, a terrible

demon,

> was performing austerities by which to conquer over the demigods,

> and the fearful demigods were anxious that the child within the

womb

> would be an even greater demon. The great sage, Narada Muni,

> arrived on the scene, and chastised the fearful demigods,

> saying, " Even if you wanted to kill this child, you would not be

> able to. He is a great devotee of the Lord " . Narada then took

the

> mother to his ashram, and constantly uttered Hari Katha, which was

> heard by the embryo. When Prahlad was developing as a child, he

is

> renowned for instructing his school friends to sing the glories of

> Lord Krsna, to put devotion before everything.

>

> What right do any of us have to say what will be the character

of

> any given child? Or what will be it's destiny after leaving the

> womb of the mother? Certainly, if you walk up to orphan's in the

> street, very few will say, " Yes, we would prefer to have died. "

>

> You speak of the child within the womb not having a decent

father.

> This is certainly tragic, but isn't it more tragic for someone to

> say, " Child, you should be dead rather than live without the love

of

> your father " . I personally cannot comprehend this logic. Isn't

the

> Supreme Lord the father of all? Isn't he able to manifest in so

> many, various forms, to help the living entities in this world? I

> can speak from personal experience, if the child has one good

> parent, either mother or father, they can conquer. They can go on

> to achieve wonderful things.

>

> There is a statement below, " the questions that would bother me if

I

> impose my personal agenda of anti-abortion are many … Well, my

> dear Prabhu....when did anyone's presentation of defending the

> rights of an unborn fetus become " my personal agenda " ? Speaking

the

> truth, that murder is sinful, is never, never, never going to

become

> any individual's personal agenda. It is crystal clear who

actually

> has a personal agenda.

>

> What is the point of this forum? For anyone to give their

> own " personal agenda " ? No. It is to elucidate, in regard to the

> teachings of the ancient scriptures, what is proper conduct for

> human beings.

>

> I AM NOT ONE TO BLINDLY FOLLOW ANY TEACHINGS. IT IS NOT ONLY

IN

> AMERICA THAT A WOMAN HAS THE RIGHT TO BE LOVING, TO BE RESPECTED,

TO

> BE PROUD OF THE CONCEPT OF " I AM A MOTHER'. All women have this

> right, and for any man to try to justify a woman killing her

child,

> is to attempt to strip her of everything that is precious to the

> concept of not just a woman, but also that of a mother. What

> memories are you speaking of, that she will have if the child is

> born? You did not mention the horrendous guilt and memories she

> would have after killing her child? Why not mention those

alongside

> the other.

>

> Certainly men these days need to look at their traditional

> roles, and what gives SOME of them the sense that women are

merely

> objects of their pleasure. To those men, my prayers, that you may

> somehow become educated...become wise...go beyond your inflated,

> pompous ego, and understand that the women of the world who truly

> seek to be righteous, to be motherly, to be beautiful.....are what

> will save this planet. I do not speak of all " women " .....there

are

> souls in both categories, of men and women, who are selfish,

> destructive to themselves and others, and unable to uplift

> themselves. Only our prayers for their benefit.....

>

> In concluding, please allow me to examine one last

paragraph.....

> How correct is it on my part to insist the woman to forget that she

> is also a human being entitled equally to liberty of actions and

> freedom of thoughts just like me? Is it not that such victims

should

> be given more freedom to express themselves? … as they truly want?

>

> Is this the words of a male " women's libber " ? As they were

called

> back in the seventies and eighties? Where does " entitled equally

> to liberty of action and freedom of thought " enter into the

picture

> of the life of one who is dedicated to spiritual growth? Whether

> male or female, if an individual studies the Gita and other sacred

> teachings, even if he/she is not HIndu, still there is acceptance

of

> a path of religious or proper conduct. One must accept that

various

> courses of action have to be abandoned. Meat eating is not

> conducive to spiritual life. Nor is intoxication, illicit sexual

> relations, gambling, or killing of unborn babies. Regardless of

how

> they entered into the womb. This goes for men, as well as

women.

> I remember back in 1980, when I was first married, there was an

> Indian doctor in Colorado where I was living in my first year of

> marriage. He quit his job at the hospital, because he was

> instructed to perform an abortion. He could not do it, as he had

> some understanding, that, " I am NOT entitled equally to liberty of

> action " . His thought was, " I am bound by the teachings of my

> superiors, of my culture " . When one desires to grow in love for

the

> supreme, he or she does not stop thinking, feeling, expressing,

but

> still there is a narrow path to follow. If one wanders from that

> path, he or she will be eaten by the tigers of material

enjoyment.

> So, suit yourselves, dear readers, if you choose to

demand " freedom

> of thought " , in the sense that " anything goes " . Karma will

continue

> to flow, whether we declare we are free of it or not. I can

boldly

> place my hand in a blazing fire, declaring, " I will not be

burnt! "

> but guess what? I will be horribly burnt. And that is not blind

> religious dogma, it is merely the truth.

>

> respectfully submitted, Mahalaksmi DAsi

> ---------------------------

> Nobody likes to abort. But abortion is common these days to

prevent

> unwanted births due to failure of family planning. To bring

religion

> into it is silly because otherwise each woman would produce 20

> children and the world would come to an end.

>

> Hari Shanker Deo

> ---------------------------

> Shree Hari

> Ram Ram

>

> We all become despondent like Arjuna over the course of this

> spiritual journey, yet if we hear Sri Krishna's message to the

> despondent Arjuna, the ultimate victory is only in following

dharma,

> whether it be rape or any other situation.

>

> Human birth is RAREST and BEST form of all births, (1 of 8.4

million

> species), and the ONLY birth where salvation is possible,

therefore

> to destroy at inception ??? We don't know the potential of that

> Soul at inception. He / she could become one of the greatest

> Saints !! a Mahatma ! and not to even give it a chance? can that

> make any sense from a dharmic perspective?

>

> To reiterate / summarize Varun Paprunia has stated Swamiji's

> response on tough issue such as rape. Please re-read it. To

> summarize some key points -

>

> 1) Rapist will incur terrible sin, and even woman too if she

derived

> pleasure.

> 2) Woman who aborts will definitely incur the sin of abortion.

> Swamiji goes so far as to say, not to abort even if life of woman

is

> in danger, therefore aborting after rape is out of the question.

> 3) If raped women, becomes pregnant, best to give birth, nuture if

> possible, if not turn over for adoption.

> 4) If unmarried becomes pregnant, it is better to bear the

> defamation for committed sin than abortion, suicide or running

from

> home.

>

> Swamiji's article " Abortion - Worst of All Sins " pg 990 - Saadhan,

> Sudha, Sindhu in Hindi, is a must read for all and any one in this

> dilemma. It is on a Video called " Silent Scream " by Dr.

Nathenson,

> who out of curiosity had take the ultrasound video of the entire

> abortion procedure. However after watching that video, neither the

> doctor who aborted, nor Dr. Nathenson, ever again returned back to

> their clinic. I have the English translation, if there is interest

I

> could post.

>

> Meera Das

> Ram Ram

>

> ---------------------------

>

> PRIOR POSTING

>

> Jai Shree Krishna

>

> I have been a member of this group from the past few months

> and have been quite influenced by the thoughts expressed by

sadhaks.

> But I am surprised to see that blame of abortions has been laid

only

> on the women. I think body of the female is involved but their male

> counterparts are also equally responsible for the sin. why the

> learned and respected sadhaks are counting sins that will be upon

> the female involved in the sin. As I said physical body of the

> female is involved and as I have learned form this sat sang only

> that body is unreal and nothing it is the soul that is real. I

> think the soul of their male counterparts should be equally

> responsible for the sin. Can all these learned people who have read

> so many scriptures also count the sins that would be upon the males

> to discourage them from such acts. I think if the males desist from

> misusing female body and are forthcoming in having responsibilities

> of the child no woman on earth would like to abort.

>

> VANDANA

> ---------------------------

> NOTE: My response had to be lengthy ... pl. wield patience to

> examine the same ... Apologies ... Naga.

>

> About abortion, its insanity and its sanity

> ===========================================

>

> I am unable to contain myself with this burning social issue on

> which enormous confusion is looming around from ages. I decided not

> to pursue this further … but, could not help but to get back.

>

> There has been considerable debate on the issue of abortion here.

> Considerable emotions are thrown in as well. It is good to know

that

> there are so many souls sensitive enough on the serenity of life.

>

> OF COURSE, ABORTION IS A HIDEOUSLY PAINFUL CONCEPT AND A HEINOUS

> REALITY TO ANY SANE PERSON.

>

> It is not acceptable to me in person as well! The true question

here

> is, should it not be acceptable at any cost? I have to be pragmatic

> and impersonal to address such a grave question.

>

> FYI, the burning question is,

>

> " Whether a raped woman has right NOT to bear the resultant feutus? "

>

> NOT, " Whether abortion is good or not? "

>

> I request you all to review your opinions with this in mind. When I

> uttered what I did, I put myself in such a woman's position and

felt

> what it would be like in meditation. If it helps, put yourselves or

> your beloved ones in such a position and then think about such

> burning questions. Blindly quoting scriptures cannot resolve social

> issues. Resonance with the problems with utter transparency can

> alone bring resolution to such issues. Therefore, I again urge you

> all … put yourselves and/or your beloved ones in such a woman's

> condition … and then think. PLEASE.

>

> The questions that would bother me if I impose my personal agenda

of

> anti-abortion are many …

>

> How correct is it on my part to insist the woman to forget that she

> is also a human being entitled equally to liberty of actions and

> freedom of thoughts just like me? Is it not that such victims

should

> be given more freedom to express themselves? … as they truly want?

>

> How correct is it to insist that violation of her core existence is

> nothing when compared to some values that I belieive in, whatsoever

> it is?

>

> Suppose the woman listens and bears the child. She is obviously

> tormented by the memory of her violation all through as the feutus

> as well as the future child keeps this torment alive by keeping the

> memories alive … how can she conduct herself as a mother with

joyous

> love toward the child when she herself is tormented?

>

> How can any value I preach replace her torment? Nobody here seems

to

> be bothered about what to do the bastard who violated her! All are

> throwing stones of religious insistence on the poor woman who is

> already suffering from her misfortune!! What difefrence is there

> between ones who physically kill such innocent victims with stones

> and the ones who are throwing stones of guilt to kill her

> psychologically?

>

> On the other hand, the child who missed the true love and

compassion

> of a mother … can my religious insistance take responsibility for

> such children's welfare? Can anything, even god, replace the joyous

> love of a mother?

>

> Suppose the child was born … there is no father … after all, how

can

> a rapist be a father? Even if he takes such a role, it is worse

than

> not having one … Have you ever considered the fate of a father-less

> child? Can anything such as religion replace a father to a child?

>

> What rights do we have to impose motherhood on a woman who is not

> ready?

>

> What rights do we have to deceive the child off its mother's joyous

> love?

>

> What rights do we have to dismiss the heavenly affection of a

father

> to such a child?

>

> Afterall, if a child grows in such anarchical circumstances … what

> person would it turn out to be? … a depressed vegetable, a synical

> contortionist or a cruel criminal … what rights do we have have to

> impose such a tax on the rest of the soceity?

>

> I have not touched upon many smaller, but yet burningly real,

issues

> … Who will bear the econmoc burden of supporting the unfortunate

> mother and the fatherless child? Who will bear the social burden of

> keeping the unfortunate woman and her child happy? Is it worth

being

> an orphan struggling for a mouthful on the streets? I can not

answer

> this … an orphan can and should!

>

> It is OK … the woman gave birth to a child … what about the rest of

> her life? Who will marry her? If not, her whole womanhood is wasted

> … in our own terms, it is a bigger sin that she is not bearing

> children anymore … unless the religion summons her to keep

> reproducing children the same way!!! Should it?

>

> After all what use was there by the honourable religion's

> intervention in such personal issues? Could it make the woman

happy?

> Could it make the child happy? Could it contribute to soceity's

> health anyway?

>

> FINALLY, CAN MY IDEOLOGY OF ANTI-ABORTION SUPERCEDE ALL THE

> CONSEQUENTIAL SOCIAL CALAMITIES?

>

> Answers to such subtle questions are always circumstantial. The

> soceity is ever dynamic and keeps changing its value structure.

> Accordingly social solutions should evolve to keep the soceity as

> well as its elements in in its healthy dynamic equilibrium.

> Reference to scriptures is valuable only if it is interpreted with

> the circumstantial sanity in mind. For example, one might have

> realized god ... it does not mean that the victim is also god-

> realized. One should get into the victim's shoes to experience the

> agony and search for the solution there. That requires the thinkers

> of the soceity to resonate with the issue. As a spiritual seeker I

> accept the highest degree of social responsibility Bhagavan Vyaasa

> instructs me with:

>

> Yadyadaacharati shreshthastattadev'taro janaah |

> Sa yatpramaanam kuru te lokaastadanuvartate ||

>

> Because others are probably gullible to just take the advise from

> an " apparently intelligent source " … as a spiritual seeker I need

to

> consider the background of the soceity thoroughly without pushing

my

> personal ideologies …

>

> Therefore … I request you all to put yourselves in the spot,

> meditate on the issue ... and, then deliberate. PLEASE.

>

> AGAIN, the question is, " Whether a raped woman has right NOT to

bear

> the resultant feutus? " This question does not raise if she is happy

> to bear it on her own.

>

> AND, the question is NOT, " Whether abortion is good or not? " –

> answer to this is self-evident and does not require further

> deliberation.

>

> Respects

>

> Naga Narayana.

> -

>

>

> Namaskar!

> Personally felt revolted by the question in such a forum. In Gita

we

> talk of

> karmayog. If one has done evil in any one of your even hundred or

> thousand lifes

> when we were on earth, obviously the same happens by law of Karma

> when time is

> right by Lord. Even Lord Krishna was not spared of this if one

> recalls A bow was

> shot on his ankle as some hunter had mistaken him for an animal

from

> far. The

> person concerned was agahast what happened then Lord Krishna

pointed

> out that

> during his incarnation as Lord Ram in earlier Yug he had done the

> same to I

> think one of the sacred trribe of monkeys , I do not recall exact

> name think

> ItsSugrir. In fact Lord Krishna was teaching mankind that none is

> above law of

> karma.In simple lanaguge what one gives comes back to you in some

> form or other,

> good or bad. That's the spiritual look at the problem From

> humanitarian approach

> all possible help to be given to victim to come back to normal and

> remove the

> scars of her traumatic experience, by counselling sessions by lady

> doctors over

> a period of few months, as the victim me relive it and start

> sweating thinking

> of it in sleep and scream.

>

> If it is woman who is subject to such a heinous crime, she has

every

> right to

> remove the foetus, provided it is before 12 weeks when new life

sets

> in. Before

> that it is a mere lump of body flesh.

>

> Request that spiritual things be discussed not such things, as it

is

> brining

> down the level of decorum of Sacred Gita discussions. Nothing will

> be gained

> spiritually in any way by talking of man's falling moral standards

> and brute

> like attitude, only change will be we will become lower in

> spirtuality. After

> all a man is known by company he keeps. Surely there are more

better

> spiritual

> topics than this!! We are nobody to judge others and point fingers

> at them, as 4

> fingers point back to us. We need to improve ourselves looking at

> every

> intention of ours like does it havve traced of moha, lobh krodh,

> voilence,

> rectify oursleves and be fit before we even consider improving

> others.

>

> Gratitude

>

> shirin

>

> ---------------------------

> PRIOR POSTING

>

> Jai Hanuman

>

> How the " mother " was and how the " mother " has now become - in this

> Kaliyuga ! Killing own children ! Indeed - words can't express the

> anguish of the soul !! ( Mike Bhaiyya ! I used your words- anguish

> of soul !)

>

> TU KITNI ACHHI HAI ? TU KITNI BHOLI HAI ? PYAARI PYAARI HAI ! O

> MAA ! O MAA !

>

> How good are you O Mom ! How docile are you O Mom! Oye Lovely

Lovely

> Jee ! O Mom ! O Mom!!

>

> KI YE JO DUNIYA HAI , YE VAN HAI KAANTO KA , TU FULWAARI HAI ! O

> MAA ! O MAA !!

>

> That what is this world? This is only a forest of thorns ! You are

> mass of flowers in it !! O Mother ! O Mother !!

>

> APNA NAHIN TUJHE SUKH DUKH KOI , MAIN MUSKAAYA TU MUSKAAI , MAIN

> ROYA TU ROYI !!

>

> O Mom! You have no concern for your own pleasures and pains at

all !

> If I smile , you smile ! If I cry , you cry !!

>

> MERE HANSANE PE , MERE RONE PE , TU BALIHAARI HAI ! O MAA , O

MAA !!

>

> You are ever loving - irrespective of whether I smiled or I cried !

> You agree to however I am !! O Mom ! O Mom !!

>

> MAA BACHON KI JAAN HOTI HAI ! WOH HOTE HAI KISMAT WALE JINKE MAA

> HOTI HAI !!

>

> A Mother is the very life force of the child. Fortunate are those ,

> whose mother lives long !

>

> KITNI SHEETAL HAI, KITNI SUNDAR HAI , NYAARI NYAARI HAI ! O MAA , O

> MAA !!

>

> How calm ! How adorable !! Always exclusive , super exclusive !! O

> Mother ! O Mother !!

>

> Hey Daddy the Great ! O Mom !! Kindly save us all from such ghastly

> crimes !

>

> Agreed, O Binanee S, Jee ! Agreed Vyas NB Jee !! Agreed Mahalaxmi

> Maiyyaji !!! Agreed Mira Bahenji !!!! Mike Bhaiyya- sitting with

> consort??? - how difficult it can become - when BG 18:32 is

> operational?? - for both and each one ? Baba ! Where are we going ?

>

> KAHAAN JAA RAHA HAI , TU AIYE JAANE WALE ! ANDHERA HAI MAN KAA DIYA

> TO JALALE !!

>

> Where are you going O Traveller ? There is darkness all around !

Why

> don't you burn the light of " CONSCIENCE " within ?

>

> May all understand what is way out of BG 18:32 !!!

>

> Namaste Jee

>

> Jee Jee

> Shashikala

> --------------------------

>

> Hari Om

>

> Khullarji. Here are some slogans

>

> * Silent scream of the fetus - what is my fault O Mummy ? What is

my

> fault O daddy ?

>

> * Don't suck life out of me! Save m ! Save me! Have mercy on me ! I

> will bring pleasures in your garden! O mummy - I am your daughter

> only!

>

>

> * Mera kasoor kya hai ?

>

> * O mom ! Please give me birth. My own fate will take care of me

> thereafter!

>

> * O murderers! You will not even get water in future births what to

> talk of food !

>

> * O parents ! You enjoyed and I get killed! Is this humanity?

>

> * Even a witch leaves at least one house unharmed! Don't kill fetus

> in the womb ! Even witches don't do that!

>

> * Fetus killing - a frightful disrespect to motherhood !

>

> * You want to increase production on one hand and kill producer in

> the womb itself- what kind of wisdom is this? What kind of

> government is this?

>

> * Birth control means converting a female into a prostitute !

>

> * Control death first and then think of controlling birth !

>

> * Fetus killing is resorted by those who neither believe in

> Paramatma, nor in prarbdha (destiny) nor in purushartha!

>

> * Getting medical test done, finding female fetus in the womb and

> killing ! Is this respect to a woman? Is this a way of giving women

> equal rights?

>

> * O mothers! Don't lose the power of motherhood for ever! Don't

kill

> your child! Don't become object of pleasure only for men! Don't

> become prostitutes!

>

> * Kill fetus and become a non fruit bearing tree forever!

>

> * Don't be so merciless O parents ! There will be no one left even

> to give you a drop of water in future!

>

> * Female fetus killing is the surest method of eliminating mothers

> from the planet ! In whose womb you shall sleep in the next birth?

>

> * Even bitches, witches and vampires do not kill their own

children!

>

> Jai Shree Krishna

>

> Vyas N B

>

>

> ---------------------------

> My dandavats to all in this forum...

> MY heart breaks when I read the post of Prem Kullar. It is so

> terrible that the east has taken up the course of following

> activities of the west. I have lived in america my entire life, and

> although perhaps I am " privileged " in the sense that I own propety,

> car, etc.....I am extremely aware that there is no culture here in

> America. No deep rooted traditions, no religious coloring of any

> particular faith, and no strong bonds in communities. What little I

> could offer in this discussion, is simply WHY? WHY? WHY FOLLOW THE

> WEST? Though Sri Krsna's love is everywhere, though daily I

> encounter beautiful people with loving hearts, they are suffering

so

> much in this country. The stress of city life is tremendous.....but

> in the country there is no money to be made....(I have done both).

> THIS COUNTRY IS DOOMED.....there is very little time left for it

due

> to its atrocious treatment of the cow, due to abortions, and due to

> its policies of usurping and controlling resources of other

> nations. WHY, WHY, WHY FOLLOW THE WEST? From the mouth of one

> who has lived here my entire life, WAKE UP. I have visited India

> twice, both times became completely overwhelmed with love for the

> Supreme, to a degree that I am unable to express.....will India

give

> up all it's accumulated piety to become a hellish pit of

> impersonalism and selfishness as the west? I pray not. Again, my

> heart aches, what can I say, except all glories to your efforts,

> Prem....to stop murder. To open the eyes of those who are blind....

>

> In the words of Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta in his purport to bhagavad

> Gita, " Those who commit such abominable acts will never see the

> light of day again. "

> So, the chain of karma will continue.....those killing the fetus

> will themselves have to take birth in a womb and be aborted, time

> and time again, to pay the price.

>

> respectfully,

> Mahalaksmi Dasi

> ------------------------------

> Raam ! Raam !! Raam!!!

>

> Some slogans for Mr Prem Khullar

>

> 1. Dont kill me in the womb itself - O mother ! O father ! I

> will come with my own fate supporting me in this world !!!

>

> 2. Efforts of increasing agricultural production and controlling

> births is like efforts of increasing milk in mother's breasts and

> then not allowing conception !!!

>

> 3. Oh Mom ! Dear Mom !!! Why I should get killed when you enjoyed ?

>

> 4. O Father ! O Mother !! Throw me in a dust bin after giving

birth!

> But don't kill me when i am so helpless !!

>

> 5. Please! Please save me O parents ! I have capacity to bring

> pleasures for you!

>

> 6. What is my fault? What my fault?? If you don't save me, who

> will?

>

> 7. Even the wildest and the cruelest of animals do not kill their

> own children!

>

> With sincere Pranaams to all genuine Sadhaks! Shame on those who

> advocate such ghastly acts ! SHAME !! SHAME !!!

>

> Beenani S.

>

> ------------------------------

> Hari Om

>

> Let me now address Khullarji's query.

>

> Swamiji used to put up a bill board outside His temporary abode

> every where that - Those who have done sin of abortion may please

> not bring " bhiksha " for me ! " Bhiksha " - alm of food. Swamiji would

> eat food brought by 5 houses every day.

>

> In Manusmriti - 4/208 , it is stated that

>

> BHROONAN GHAVEKSHITAM CHAIV SANSPRISHTAM CHAAPYUDAKYAYA !

> PATATRINA VALEEDHAM CHA SHUNA SANSPRISHTAMEVA CHA !!

>

> One should not eat food (1) touched by female in periods (2)

> touched by a dog (3) partially eaten by a bird (4) seen by (what to

> say " touched by " ) one who ever indulged in abortion !

>

> Verse referred by Khullarji is in Parashar Smriti 4/20.

>

> YATPAPAM BRAHMA HATYAYA DVIGUNAM GARBHPATNE !

> PRAYASHCHITAM NA TASYAATI TASYATYAAGO VIDHIYATE

>

> In Brahma Vaivat Purana ( Prakrati Khand, Chapter 2) it is stated

> that in the beginning of creation, the basic prakrati ( Shri Radha)

> threw her fetus into waters. God immediately cursed her - From now

> onwards you will never have a child. Not only that, by your part

> whatever " divya " females will get created they also shall be

without

> a child. Thereafter from the tongue of Basic Nature (Shri Radha) -

> Goddess Saraswati incarnated. Later on that Basic Nature got split

> into 2 parts. From Left body - Goddess Laxmi incarnated. From Right

> body " Radha " incarnated. God also became two. From half left body

He

> became " Chaturbhuj Vishnu " (Four armed Vishnu) and from right part

> He became two armed " Krishna " ! Both Laxmi and Saraswati were

> childless. Then from the pours of Krishna countless " Gopas "

> incarnated. From pours of Shri Radha countless " Gopis " manifested.

> My understanding is that Gopis were infertile, childless !

>

> In " Vriddha Suryarun Karma Vipaak " Scripture it is stated:

>

> PURVE JANUSHI YA NAARI GARBHA GHAAT KARI HYABHOOT!

> GARBHAPAATEN DUKHARTA SAATRA JANMANI JAAYATE !! (477/1)

>

> A Lady who had aborted in past lives, suffers in this life on

> account of being childless!

>

> VANDHYEYA YA MAHABHAAG PRICHHATI SWAM PRAYOJANAM!

> GARBHAPAATRATA PURVE JANUSHYATRA PHALAM TVIDAM !!

>

> If some Lady asks why she is issueless, infertile in this life?

> Answer is due to abortion in the past life. ( 659/1; 856/1; 921/1;

> 1857/1)

>

> GARBHAPATAN PAPADHYA BABHOOV PRAGBHAVEANDAJ !

> SAATREVA TEN PAAPEN GARBHESTHERYA NA VINDATI !!

>

> O Arun ! One who aborts in prior life, can not bear child in

present

> life ! ( 1187/1)

>

> As simple as that !

>

> Jai Shree Krishna

> Vyas N B

> -----------------------------

> Woman Power!

> by TA Ramesh

>

> Without Shakti, Siva cannot do any duty in all the worlds;

> Without power, no matter can be active in the Universe;

> Without soul, human body cannot survive in the world!

>

> Without mother, children cannot grow hale and healthy;

> Without wife, husband cannot maintain family and children;

> Without woman, man cannot love and live in the world!

>

> Beauty, intelligence and love are the aspects of personality

> That helps women stand unique in the world;

> But, so emotional by nature that it's impossible

> For a woman to keep secrets in her heart;

> And so, women let the cat out of the bag easily!

>

> Hence women show the skeleton kept in the cup-board

> Long to anyone who moves them most!

> That's why taboos and restrictions imposed on women

> Are perhaps rigorous and heartless in many religions,

> That are, now, slowly removed by social reforms

> By great movement leaders in the modern world.

>

> Literature is also full of the Power of Women

> As the Main Theme everywhere in the world!

> Without the beautiful woman, Helen at the center of the story,

> How can Homer's Iliad ever exist in the world?

> Without the virtuous woman, Sita in Valmiki's Great Epic,

> Ramayana can ever be read so long?

>

> Thousands of years, by law and religion,

> Women are kept as under-dogs to men;

> Women are not just the Weaker Vessels,

> Without whose encouraging support

> Vessels of Tears won't survive in the world;

> Without the knowledge, intelligence and support

> Of Woman Power, no family

> Can sustain, develop and survive!

>

> with regards

> Dilip Ravindran

> ----------------------------

>

> PRIOR POSTING

> Namaste,

>

> Manu's verse ' yatra naaryastu pUjyante ramante tatra devatAh' (

the

> gods rejoice/ are happy, where the woman is worshipped) is, I feel,

> a powerful message to inculcate respect for women at whichever

stage

> she may be.

>

> Shubhamastu

> Anuradha Choudry

> ------------------------------

> -Shree Hari_

>

> Clarification: I was reflecting on a place where I once lived long

> ago, I was not in poverty but I saw much of it. I would never ever

> imply that one should hold a dagger, as it were, at peoples throat,

> and demand they follow, rules on their personal behavior , it is

the

> opposite to what I am. Options can be shown to them, not killing.

>

> Many people revert to medicines of some sort or another, for

various

> conditions, and it often means the death of some organism or other.

> In reality many are based on herbs, and a vegetable origin.

> In passing my preference is homeopathy.

>

> If I get or any person gets bitten by a snake around here, then to

> the hospital quick smart, for an antidote, not to is death. (why

die

> if one can prevent it?)

>

> Driven by compassion one would like to see people live life in

> comfort and happiness, why not?

>

> Yes Divine Feminine 'Shakti', (she is universal), has been

suppressed

> for thousands of years, and the world has become unbalanced, she

has

> to sit with her consort once more.

>

> My thoughts are exhausted on the subject, I will just read on.

>

> With Respect and Divine Love,

>

> Mike Keenor

> --------------------------------

>

> Raam Raam Raam

>

> Great Suggestion is that either you dont make efforts to remain

> healthy, to cure any illnesses OR we are justified in stopping new

> births into this world. Either you control death or we shall

control

> birth. As simple as that. Why you are taking medicines to cure

> fever ? If you are taking medicines, then we shall abort the child.

> What shall the child do in this planet? Oh No ! Kill him. Modern

> societies cant tolerate this non sense of humans coming on this

> planet so fast. Where is the space ? Where is housing for them ?

Who

> will arrange for their food, water, upkeep, maintenance? How costly

> are the living now a days ? We want freedom ! We have come on this

> planet, and after applying our minds we have concluded that in

> modern societies such non sensical obstacles to sensual pleasures

is

> unwarranted ! Kill them . Stop them from coming to this world. Now

> that we have come into this planet, where is the need for any

other?

> It is these new arrivals that has made this world so bad, and

> unlivable. No , Sorry ! We cant let them enter. Kill the fetus.

> Simply kill ! All problems are only because of that only ! Kill the

> fetus in the womb itself. Suck the life out of it. Let us enjoy. We

> never wanted the child. We just wanted to enjoy the human life.

From

> where this conception hascome ? Oh , dont worry kill the fetus ! We

> are modern, we are not orthodox people. If we dont stop human

beings

> from coming to this world, then what shall be the difference

between

> us and animals. Animals mate only when there is season for mating.

> They have to exercise restraints and disciplines- not the human

> beings. Animals are animals only because they mate only when there

> is a season. We are not animals. We are human beings. We shall mate

> anytime we want - morning evening, day, night, January, April, June

> any time, any month. What a fun ! What an obstacle to this fun is

> this conception. That is spoil sport. Kill the fetus. After all we

> are privileged, we are intelligent. We can invent devices to kill

> them anytime. Science is pretty advanced. Vacuum cleaners. Suck the

> life out of that creature. What the fetus thought we are so stupid.

> Gone are those old concepts of father, mother, protector ! Non

> sense. We have mind, intellect, beautiful body. This conception

> is undesirable - a simple nuisance! We have thought over it, all

> problems are only because of increase in population. From where the

> additional income will come? From where we shall feed the

children ?

> No ! Not Possible!! Our leaders also say so. Entire economy is in

> mess only because of this over population. Enjoy mating, but kill

> fetus. Where is the need for child here ? Shall we eat ourselves or

> get entangled in arranging food for them ? Are we so stupids ? Come

> On ! Either you control death or we shall abort !!! We are modern

> humans. Kill the fetus. No arguments. Kill ! If you want to live

> peacefully - murder ! Or Control Death !

>

> Raam Raam Raam !

>

> Beenani S

>

> ------------------------------

> Dear Vipra Bandhavaha, evam itare suhridaha,

> We must avoid debates and discussion on which modern educated and

so

> called Western feminist women will have strong view. It is a pity

> that they could destroy what they cannot create. See the ten per

> cent of married couples who long and yearn for children and are not

> blessed so. Think deeply, do not impose your views on others.

> Vriddha Divakarosmi Bhoh.

>

> ------------------------------

> Jai Hanuman

>

> People often say if the population is not controlled there will be

> shortage of eatables on the planet. This poverty , mal nutrition

are

> only because of population growth. Hence population control is the

> answer for all these menaces confronting humanity. Wrong are they!!

> Patently wrong ! Absolutely wrong !

>

> Taat Shree ( Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj) said that kind of

actions

> which so called intelligentia advocate to support population

> control, kind of sins which are increasingly getting legalised -

> what to say eatables and food grains , one will not even get water

> as a result .

>

> Oh What a pity Jee ! A human being wants to live comfortably and in

> order to do that, he wishes/wants to put obstacles in another human

> being, in it's being born ! Is that humanity ? That is how you feel

> one can bring happiness, order, harmony, pleasure in human life?

> Such arguments are in reality a garbage advanced by power hungry

> stupid politians to justify mis-management of existing resources

and

> mislead. Economics !! Sheer Nonsense !

>

> Indeed the intellect can get into the spell of what is stated in BG

> 18:32. This is Kaliyuga Jee. This is how at the last phase of time

> cycle, the humans can become. It will worsen in times to come. Ever

> heard the term " cannibalism " ? Humans are heading towards the same.

>

> Get liberated Jee, Realise Paramatma, O Dear Sadhaks Jee, as fast

> as you can. Future will unfold else the circumstances and scenes

> which you will never want to see again. Who have been left?. Those

> who from Satyuga, to Treta to Dwapar till today have always set

> example of BG 18:32. Most of us are in that zone only. Hurry up

> Please Jee!

>

> See how do they perceive - Hell with your coming on this planet, we

> have come first and now we shall not allow you to come ! We will

> enjoy the physical relationship, privilege, without letting you

> come in Jee. Don't you know who we are Jee? Humans , Humans ! We

> are humans !

>

> Namaste Jee

>

> Jee Jee

> Shashikala

> --------------------------

> ------------------------------

>

> Hari Om

>

> I am in perfect agreement with Mahalaxmi Dasi and Mike Keenor. Of

> course Mira Dass was immaculate as usual, completely relevant and

> absolutely correct. Frankly, I can't say so for most of the views

of

> Mr Naga Narayana. If he wants as a sadhak to know as to why I feel

> so , we can discuss briefly through short notes the reasons

thereof.

>

> Mike- you are right in most of your observations regarding birth

> control pills also. That is not bad. But good is copulation timing

> and male condoms. Better is " control " over the very desire and the

> Best is mating only for giving birth ! ONLY WITH THAT PURPOSE !!

>

> Reply of B Sathyanarainji is 100 percent right. No doubt about

> that ! Mahalaxmi Dasi's response is one of the best write ups on

the

> subject , I have ever read.

>

> Certainly Sobhanaji. Shame on the males can only be and rightfully

> be attributed by females who are 1000 times more able, better and

> powerful than males. All powers arise from female - Goddess

> Shakti . All glories and happiness in this world arises out of

> Goddess Laxmi- again a female. Mother Nature is a female.. You are

> entitled to say so ! Sanatan Dharma is in favour of your

entitlement

> to do so ! My compliments as a sadhak .

>

> Operations of males/females so that there is no conception is

> extremely bad act. You get disentitled to perform many rituals and

> you don't return to God and atmosphoric airs, what was received by

> you - for the reasons best known to you only.

>

> I have heard this from elders (don't remember if I read somewhere)

> that Goddess Mahalaxmi had aborted a child in some human life. Even

> after having Lord Naraina (Lord Vishnu) as her husband, she could

> never become mother again. As simple as that !!

>

> How a man is a man, if he has no powers to become father, has no

> reproductive capacity ? Just How? How a woman is a woman if she has

> no powers to become mother, has no reproductive capacity ? Just

how?

>

> But Mike , I really could not understand any relevance of your

> reference of over population at the near by place. Really ! If you

> mean to say that over population is not desirable and must be

> controlled by any one , then I beg to differ with you. We can have

a

> deliberation on this. Divine deliberation ! Real Satsanga !!

Example

> setting form of satsanga !

>

> Jai Shree Krishna

>

> Vyas N B

> ----------------------------

>

> I agree with you Shobhnaji, thousand percent. Shame on us to keep

> treating the women folk with deep rooted disrespect.

>

> To others, this is a social issue. And hence does not befit this

> forum. Therefore, I desist to respond to the other queries

> raised ... Mahabharata and Bhagavadgita are as useful to the

society

> as to a spiritual aspirant. But … that needs a different forum.

> Therefore, let me be brief ...

>

> To Dasiji, Vyaasji, Mike and others who have commented on the

> feutus's freedom to take life … my question is regarding the

freedom

> of the person living. Our poor brothern in India has paid heavily

on

> the rape, violation and enslavement for more than a millenium

thanks

> to the wrongly preached spiritual values in social life. Again, the

> problem is not in the great spiritual values … but, in the

> preaching. Bhagavan Vyaasa warns sternly … Na buddhidhedam janayet

…

> never preach these values … they are only for seekers. Because,

> those who do not understand the depth of concepts such as Ahimsa

> (non-violence) and Shaanti (peace) would let their natural

cowardice

> reign their lives. It is the responsibility of a saint to

> acknowledge that the world cannot be saintly. Whoever tried to

> spread sainthood in the history has achieved nothing but social

> fragmentation … sainthood never appeared in humanity so far.

> Therefore, if at all spirituality helps, it should let the humans

be

> just humans first from social perspective.

>

> Dasiji feels that the death is not a Godly act while birth is a

> Godly act. If their exists a devil against the God, I can only pity

> such appreciation of God. Good and bad are our creation in our

> illusions. Just because we love birth and hate death, we cannot

> project the same ignorance on God. Birth and death are both God's

> gifts to us. We should treat both the same way with absolute

> respect. If we cannot, at least we should not wield hypocracy to

> suit our beliefs.

>

> God is not their to protect anybody but has provided everything to

> do so oneself. Krishna never fights ... Arjuna has to. If God " had

> to " protect, he would have protected the violation of freedom of a

> woman in the first place. One who suffers has all the right to

> respond to one's own suffering in one's own way. Spirituality

cannot

> trespass its compassion to preach either way. Such judgment will be

> as lopsided as of the Bramhin who tried to interfere with an

eagle's

> attempt to eat its food, a snake.

>

> Vyasji has quoted Karna … the goodness captive in the bad … nothing

> but a slave to the bad … committed to serve the bad till death.

What

> is the use of such goodness? In fact, more harmful to the society!

>

> Again, the society should be The Bhima who pulls out the heart of

> the beastly violaters enroute. Incidentally, he does not need

> Krishna's intervention because Krishna's approval is inherent in

all

> his actions.

>

> Respects.

>

> Naga Narayana

>

> ---------------------------

> Namaste

>

> DAADU DUNIYA BAAWARI , FIKAR KARE GELI !

> ROTI DESI RAMJEE, DOPAARA PELI !!

>

> Said Sage Daaduji

>

> Mad has gone this world ! Absolutely crazy. It is worrying

> unnecessarily out of stupidity. God will provide meals to you

before

> noon time.

>

> Mr Naga Narayana - Worry not ! There is one creator, preserver and

> destroyer , called, Paramatma ( Ever heard this name?) who will

take

> care through Mother Nature about birth, death, fame, illfame,

> happiness and sorrow.

>

> Said Sage Vashishtha to Bharatji

>

> AHO BHARAT BHAAVI PRABAL, BILAKH KAHAT MUNIRAAJ !

> HAANI LAABH JEEVAN MARAN, JAS APJAS VIDHI HAATH !!

>

> O Bharat ! Destiny is very powerful. Profit, Loss, Death, Birth,

> Fame and Ill fame are controlled by Destiny only.

>

> Stop giving reasons. Simply dont disturb the Laws of Nature . You

> have no rights to do that. What if our fathers also thought in the

> similar manner? How we would have been able to become humans then?

> Dont we run to a doctor if urine stops ? We are that weak ! Why

> should we take responsibility of Creator on our weak shoulders?

> Stupidity is that- Isnt it ?

>

> HAM EK KHILONE HAIN, EK AISE KHILAADI KE !

> JISKO ABHI SADIYON TAK YEH KHEL RACHAANA HAI !!

>

> We are toys in the hands of that player, who is yet to continue

this

> world for centuries and centuries.

>

> Chesta Vinod

> -----------------------------

> Priya Sadhaks

>

> Sobhanaji has indeed expressed herself naturally and therefore

> powerfully. But only in writing " Shame on you all " ! On balance

> there was nothing .

>

> Madam ! None is bad here!! Change the vision and you shall start

> seeing the ultimate good here ! Try it !

>

> Why inflict any shame on any one?

>

> At the lotus feet of all of you and of Paramatma

>

> MM Purohit

>

>

> ===============================================================

>

> PRIOR POSTING

> My dandavats to all in this forum....

>

> In regard to the concept of taking pills to prolong health being

> " hypocritical " if one is against pills to stop birth......I am

> shocked that one with knowledge would dare equate the two concepts.

> Doesn't the Supreme Lord appear as Dhanvantari, to give knowledge

of

> herbs to help human beings? Where is there any reference where the

> Supreme Lord would say, " yes, abort this child " ? Anyone can say

> anything, but one must analyze according to scripture, if he or she

> is to truly benefit the cause of humanity.

> Also, I believe it is a myth that there is overpopulation. I

> truly believe that mother Bhumi can expand her form, if needed, she

> is alive....she is not dead matter. The problem today is

> mismanagement of the resources. In the time of Prthu Maharaj,

> another incarnation of the Lord mentioned in the Srimad Bhagavatm,

> mother earth also withheld fruits and vegetables and grains, as

there

> was so little sacrifice in the human hearts taking place. On the

> threat of Prthu Maharaj, she agreed to produce abundantly. Are

> there those who think these stories are simply folk lore?

> Again, anyone can say anything, but the laws of material nature

> will act, regardless. If I say that the sun will rise in the west,

> I can say it every day til I leave this world, but will it happen?

> No, it will not. I cannot change the laws of nature. Killing is

> sinful, attempting to prevent a soul from entering a womb using any

> birth control is sinful, and reactions will come whether one

> believes or not. This is the law of karma. Otherwise, if this were

> not true, it would stand to reason that there is nothing wrong with

> unlimited illicit sexual activity. Yes, just use birth control,

> have abortions, enjoy your body all you choose...IS THERE ANYONE

WHO

> CAN SUPPORT THIS TYPE OF MENTALITY FROM A RELIGIOUS OR DEVOTION TO

> GOD STAND-POINT? I don't believe it is possible.

> Also, it may be true that the perpetrator of rape is a

> rascal....but a woman cannot justify her act of murdering an unborn

> child merely because a male chose to act sinfully. The two sins do

> not balance each other out. Women must return to their role of

> being protectors of society, of righteousness...with no " attitude "

> of hatred toward the ignorance of males, otherwise the love and

grace

> of Laksmi will never again flow abundantly on this planet.

> The " blame game " should not be for those of saintly character.

>

> Respectfully submitted,

> Mahalaksmmi Dasi

> -------------------------------

> -Shree Hari-

> I found the comments by Naga Narayana and Meera Das absorbing, the

> full spectrum as it were.

> OK there was a program on TV here, that showed an abortion, not

> simulated, the real thing, the apparatus used was a sort of vacuum

> device the sucked the life from the womb.

> As I watched this, I experienced something unusual, I had no

> emotions, it was as if I were stone, no anger no horror, I was in

the

> presence of demonic evil, somehow my emotions retreated, my

defenses

> were up, sometimes evil can be so great it seems, that words and

> reactions have no place.

> What I saw, I never want to see again,.

> Preventing conception, is not killing of life, there is timing of

> copulation, condoms, barriers, and birth control pills; they do not

> abort, I personally think that the birth control pill may have

> dangers, as it interferes with normal bodily functions.

> However if the pill prevents the resort to abortion, then so be it.

> If a woman is raped, the fetus is not the intruder, the brute who

> raped her is. Punish him by the full force of the law, not the

fetus.

> (I understand in some countries, it's almost impossible to be

charged

> with rape, and the victims can be punished, how terrible!)

>

> I have personally witnessed, the stinking mire that over

population,

> poverty, animals and humans living in close proximity, the over

> powering smell of camels, goats , and sewage, and what it does to

> people.

>

> So on the subject of abortion, I see strength in Meera Das point of

> view, and on birth control, I think Naga Narayana, has sound

> arguments.

>

> With Respect and Divine Love.

>

> Mike Keenor

> ------------------------------

> What about the karma of the men who rape? All the views expressed

> here do not take into account that women are human beings, have

> feelings and have the right to perhaps cleanse themselves of the

> sins committed by men. Abortion is the only way to cleanse such sin

> committed by men, who are " protectors " and hide behind religious

> views.

>

> Shame on all of you.

> Shobhna S. Kumar

> -------------------------------

> PRIOR POSTING

> Hari Om

>

> Under no circumstance, even if the circumstance is life

> threatening - the sin of abortion should not be done.

> Any happenning in our life is outcome of our own karma meted out by

> God's laws through nature. Law of Karma is precise and accurate in

> its operation.

>

> Every incidence has kripa (benevolence) of God hidden in it. Every

> adverse incident provides you an opportunity to get closer to God

by

> right conduct and right utilisation of given circumstance. The

human

> birth has not been given for petty comforts and worldly pleasures.

> It is a challenging, sadhan ( striving for God Realisation) form of

> life. The austerity resulting from given adverse circumstances is

> God sent/willed as per our own prior deeds.One must take such God

> sent austerities as an opportunity for spiritual advancement. One

> must perceive the human life as a special form of life- not to

enjoy

> worldly pleasures but to happily do one's duty without caring for

> one's right and another's duty. Job is already on hand, of giving

> birth to the innocent child, the duty is already on hand. The

> aggrieved should take it so, give birth to the child, and

thereafter

> she may handover the child to orphanage etc.

>

> One must be " careful in " doing " , and happy in " happening "

> (result) " . No circumstance can force you to commit new sins.

>

> Sanatan Dharma Scriptures deal with every type of circumstance.

> Similar circumstance was faced by Kunti also. Kunti was mother of

> Karna conceived when she was unmarried through Sun. She gave birth

> to the child and silently surrendered the child to the mother

> nature. Karna went on to be a part of history forever. Karna earned

> admiration of all , including from Lord Krishna. He was one of the

> greatest philanthropist the Indian soil has ever produced. He

> redefined the art of giving/donating/ renunciation. He was " tyaag

> murti " . Karna was the eldest son of Kunti- elder than

> Yuddhister/Bhim/Arjuna/Nakul/Sahdev.

>

> Jai Shree Krishna

>

> Vyas N B

> --------------------------

> HELLO SIR,

> Your own conscience is the best guide. follow it. In so doing see

> that your action does not harm the other person. Follow the maxim "

> do unto others what you expect from others " That's what the Mahatma

> Gandhi said, " I look to my inner self for guidance when I am in

> trouble " . So said Lord Buddha too.

> Ramachander Homma

> --------------------------

> Dear Sadaks,

> If a lady conceives, it is not her wish or effort. Many women even

> after marriage do not concieve. Why? The child to be born is

> predecided by the Karma of that soul. In certain cases the child

> gets aborted naturally, which is no way connected with anybody or

> Sin.

> But to abort a child is wrong. The cause is abortion and the effect

> is the lady who aborted the child, will have rebirth as lady who

> will have no issues (children). This lady who aborted can even be a

> tree in her next birth, where the tree does not yield fruits. The

> rebirth depends on once Paapas (sins) and Puniyas (virtues).

> Referance Garbopanashid.

> B.Sathyanarayan

> --------------------------

> Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

> I resonate totally with the views expressed by Naga Narayanji on

> this subject.

> No action in itself is right or wrong without regard to

> circumstances surrounding it.

> An action such as abortion may be right in one set of circumstances

> and wrong in another set of circumstances. In otherwords, actions

> are not inherently right or wrong.

> There are many examples in daily life where we can see this to be

> true.

> I think that right action comes to one who is steadfast on the path

> of righteousness (dharma), and seeks all decisions from the

Totality

> of Being(THAT) and never as an individual! In such cases interest

of

> all parties involved in actions are duly considered by THAT. Such

> actions are God taking actions through people for people.

> Namaskaras........Pratap Bhatt

>

> --------------------------

>

> PRIOR POSTING

> Shree Hari

> Ram Ram

>

> As our scriptures says - if we believe that we are the Atma (Soul,

> Spirit, Individual Consciousness), and if we also believe that

human

> life is the rarest form of birth (1 of 8.4 million species in this

> Universe), and that only in this human form of life, one can attain

> freedom from all bondages, one can realize their true nature, one

> can attain salvation, one can realize eternal bliss, one can

develop

> love of God… etc., then common sense says that what Swamiji says is

> without any doubt to be accepted - i.e. we have no right to stop

> the evolution of a Soul, by creating roadblocks in it's evolution

> cycle. This roadblock that we place on another souls' progress, to

> not allow it an opportunity for salvation, will definitely have

it's

> consequences and is a grave sin. Most of the times, we sin due to

> desire for our own happiness, self protection, comforts,

betterment,

> selfish reasons, and if we look at it from that perspective, also

> the reason for abortions are also mostly for the same reasons, for

a

> little convenience and happiness, we are destroying another life,

> and not allowing it to be born as a human, a soul that could have

> realized the Self / God, and attain salvation etc.

>

> Swamiji has said it is briefly addressed in Gita, under demoniac

> tendencies. Gita 16:9 " Prabhavantyu grakarmaanah kshayaaya

> jagatohitaah. " " Not believing in the eternal soul, the demoniac

> natured appear as enemies of the world, for its destruction. " Gita

> 16:9

> Unknowingly we destroy and kill helpless lives, and are hoping the

> we will be benefited. How can we be benefited? How can we attain

> salvation?

> " Jaan-jaanker mook, asamarth jivon ki hatyaa karte ho aur caahete

ho

> ki hamaaraa bhallaa ho jaaye; kaise ho jaayegaa? kalyaan kaise ho

> jaayegaa ?

>

> For their selfish motives, such demoniac people indulge in

violence,

> murder and usurpation etc., without thinking of the pain, which

they

> inflict upon others.

> " Dharmasarvasva suno, aur sunker dhaaran kar lo. Jo aacharan apnese

> pratikool ho, usko dusero ke prati mat karo. "

>

> Looking at a broader more Universal perspective, who truly takes

> care of the 8.4 millions species? Do we? What arrogance to think

> that we alone have the right and the burden of responsibility for

> that conceived fetus? In many countries, one has to wait for years

> and pay a huge amount, to adopt a child. Our ego and selfishness is

> causing us to not give this opportunity to another soul and to

> instead sin.

>

> Not only that, many women who visited Swamiji after having

undergone

> several abortions, found their bodies to be significantly weakened,

> undergoing several irreversible health problems. (I am truly

> unaware of the medical and health implications, as this is based

> only on experiences / problems that women shared with Swamiji).

>

> After listening to Swamiji / reading his thoughts from books for a

> number of years, after listening to the way He responded to

question

> and answers, there was never a question that he could not answer to

> one's satisfaction. He had thought about everything he shared,

> deeply for a long time, before he even uttered a word or stated

> something firmly. In my opinion, Swamiji and all the major

> religions of the world that believe in pro-life cannot be wrong!

>

> Hope this helps.

> Meera Das

> Ram Ram

> -------------------------------

> Sanity and Sanctity of Birth-Control and Abortion

>

> Many religions are committed to the propaganda of the idea of anti-

> abortion and anti-birth-control strongly even in the so-called

> advanced societies such as West. I strongly advocate that this is

an

> extremely lopsided vision from both social as well as natural

> persepctives. By the way, spirituality has nothing to do with it!

>

> We hear a lot like " birth is God's Grace and hence we should not

> intefere; any such intereference is the greed, selfishness and

> arrogance of humans against God's Grace " . I agree with it

completely

> ONLY IF it is also appreciated in tandem that " death is also God's

> Grace and hence we should not interfere with that as well " . Death

is

> part of the creation as much as the birth. Is it OK to exercise our

> ego to interfere with THAT when we are trying all we could do to

> avoid/postpone the death? Isn't it the same greed and arrogance in

> action in this case as well? Are we not disgracing ourselves by not

> believing God's will in our death??

>

> My suggestion to the birth-promoters is, " do not take a single pill

> to interfere with God's will in the deseases, aging as well as in

> death. Then, you are entitled to claim that one should not

> interefere with God's will. " Taking all medicinal help to promote

> our survival rate and life span on one hand and rejecting the same

> for birth control on the other hand is hypocracy. Such attitude is

> utterly (1) anti-nature resulting in lopsided population growth of

> one single species on this earth; and (2) anti-society resulting in

> undue stress of life demands overwhelming the resources. As far as

> death control is excercised, one should allow the birth control to

> balance the act in any soceity. That is social sanity and that is

> natural sanctity.

>

> Again, promoting one's material life on this earth is not at all

the

> agenda of Bhagavad Gita. The agenda is to cleanse the life we have

> already taken … to learn how to live it well and how to leave it as

> well. That does not remove any of our social responsibilities and

> natural obligations. One can get liberated from the social

> responsibilities by accepting the nature – birth and death alike.

On

> the other hand, one cannot get liberated from the natural

> obligations till one lives.

>

> Also, abusing the spiritual texts for social promotion is incorrect

> and can lead to become frantically religious and religiously

> fanatic. Bhagavaan Vyaasa advocates to never preach spirituality to

> one who cannot appreciate it for one with half-baked knowledge will

> lead to natural catastrophies such as population explosion which

> eventually culminates in social catastrophies such as wars.

>

> Na buddhibhedam janayet agnyaanaam karmasanginaam |

> Joshayet sarva karmaani vidvaanyuktassamaacharan ||

>

> For social issues such as abortion one should adapt common sense

and

> social awareness that reflects the circumstantial reality. If the

> woman is forced to bear a feutus against her will, she has all the

> rights to terminate the same. I request the same preachers to catch

> hold of the male beasts that cause such distress in the fisrt place

> and terminate them instead. Nobody has any right to interfere in

> this matter when one cannot share the burden of the socio-

economical

> implications let alone the physio-psychological distress imposed

> upon the victim. Why should an innocent woman suffer because of a

> beastly male? Society should be The Bhima who pulls out the heart

of

> such beasts enroute. Incidentally, he does not need Krishna's

> intervention because Krishna's approval is inherent in all his

> actions.

>

> Respects.

>

> Naga Narayana

> ------------------------------

> Dear Sir ,

>

> You mentioned the shloka:

> " Yat paapam brahmahattyaa dvigunam garbhapaatane; Praayashchitam ne

> tasyaasti tatsyaasyaago vidhiyate " (Parasharsmriti 4:20).

>

> Please let me know if you know any more details about this Shloka.

>

> I am planning to put up boards with slogan in the villages with

this

> verse picture of Lord Krishna and Radha and duly translated thus :

>

> BRUNE HATYA JO KARE HOGA MAHAAPAP

> VIDHATA KA USSKO LAGEGA BHANKAR SHRAAP.

>

> Any idea of better slogan? or any other thoughts on this?

>

> Prem Khullar

> -------------------------------

>

> PRIOR POSTING

> Hare Krishna

>

> Answer to Question 1

>

> Prashantji, I am pasting the answer of your question from Swamiji's

> book " Sadhan-Sudha-Sindhu " page 960.

>

> Q. If it becomes compulsory for woman to abort the baby due to an

> infection, then what should she do?

>

> A. She will definitely incur the sin of abortion. For protecting

> woman people abort the baby but this should not be done. What has

to

> happen will indeed happen. If the woman has to die then even after

> abortion she will die. If she is destined to live longer then she

> will not die even if she chooses not to abort. Whatever may be the

> cause of death, it will only arrive when the time is up. So

abortion

> should never be done.

>

> Q. Should abortion be carried out in case an unmarried woman

becomes

> pregnant?

>

> A. That boy and girl should marry who had pre-marital sex. If the

> marriage is not possible then also abortion should not be done. The

> girl should nurture that child and give him/her to an orphanage or

> give it to someone who wants to adopt a child.

>

> If a woman is raped then the rapist will incur terrible sin. If the

> woman has derived pleasure from that then she will also incur sin.

> All sins emanate from sensual desire. So the amount of sin will be

> in direct proportion with the pleasure derived by that woman. If

the

> woman did not take any pleasure then she will not incur sin.

>

> If an unmarried woman is pregnant then her parents will also incur

> sin for their carelessness. It is a must for parents that they take

> utmost care of their daughter and not give her excessive

> independence.

>

> Q. If society comes to know about it then she will become infamous

> and no one will marry her?

>

> A. After committing sin one has to bear defamation. Abortion,

> suicide and running from home. In comparison to these three sins,

> it's better to bear the defamation. If no one is willing to marry

> her then she should reside in her father's house and spend her life

> in worshipping God. This will be penance for her which will destroy

> her sins.

>

> Q. If a married woman is raped and she becomes pregnant then what

> should be done?

>

> A. It is better for her to be quiet. If husband comes to know about

> it then he should also remain quiet. The couple's slience is best

> for them. In reality, one should always be attentive from the

> beginning so that such kind of situations do not arise. My

> suggestion is not for abortion because it is an ultimate sin

> (MahaPaap).

>

> Answer to Question 2

>

> Shri Khullarji, you are indeed doing great social service by

> rescuing women from committing sins like abortion etc. This society

> needs people like you.

>

> Gita doesn't specifically mention about abortion. It strikes the

> root of sin i.e. desire and God has spoken at length on it. Read

> Gita (3-36, 37 and 16-21, 23, 24)

>

> Premji, Gitapress has published 2 books.

>

> Matrishakti Ka Ghor Apman (Code 420)

> Desh Ki Vartaman Dash Aur Uska Parinam (Code 617)

> Check the details at www.gitapress.org. You can use these 2 books

> for your purpose.

>

> These 2 books are also included in a 1000 page book Sadhan-Sudha-

> Sindhu (Code 465). It is a compilation of more than 40 books of

> Swamiji's teachings.

>

> Thanks,

>

> Hare Krishna

> Varun P. Paprunia

> -------------------------------

> Shree Hari

> Ram Ram

>

> From Gita Talk Moderator:

>

> " Sadhan, Sudha, Sindhu " in Hindi by Swami Ramsukhdasji, can be

> viewed online for free at:

>

>

http://www.swamiramsukhdasji.org/swamijibooks/pustak/pustak1/html/sad

> hansudhasindhu/main.html

> Ram Ram

>

> -------------------------------

> Dear Sadhakas, This passage has moved me deeply. One should still

> think about the fact that abortion is wrong. Firstly when a woman

or

> a man, yes a man can be raped by a woman for his seed. QUESTION 1:

> If raped, the fact is the baby formed is not at fault. One does

not

> have the right to kill a child just because of that fact.

> What would be such a case when rape occurs and the child is

aborted?

> your comments please. Prashanth

> ---------------------

> Dear Sir I read the SADAK dt 26 september 2008 regularly . I read

> the following verse in your letter dated 27/09/08.

> QUESTION 2: In the Paaraashersmriti - " Yat paapam brahmahattyaa

> dvigunam garbhapaatane; Praayashchitam ne tasyaasti tatsyaasyaago

> vidhiyate " Can you correctly guide me as to where do I find this

> writing below, also does Gita make any reference to this? I wish to

> quote it in my meetings in the villages against the female

feticide.

> (aborting female fetus)

> thanks, Kindly do clarify and oblige,

> prem khullar

> -------------------------------

> ADDITIONAL QUERY:

>

> Do any of you have any more details on this shloka from Paaraasher

> Smriti - " Yat paapam brahmahattyaa dvigunam garbhapaatane;

> Praayashchitam ne tasyaasti tatsyaasyaago vidhiyate " . Kindly let me

> know any other scriptures where abortion is mentioned as sinful.

> Gita shloka does not clearly point to abortion per se. The source

> is important, therefore do provide it, along with the quote /

> shloka.

>

> I am in process of creating slogans for big display boards for

> villages and cities of Haryana where female feticide is spreading

> like wild fire. Please suggest good slogan ! Please help

> immediately.

> Sincerely - Prem Khullar.

> --------------------------------

>

> :Shree Hari:

> Ram Ram

>

> 26th September, 2008, Friday

> Ashwin Krishna Dvaadashi, Vikram Samvat 2065, Shukravar

>

> " Mana jaane sab baat, jaan boojh avaguna kare

> kyon chaahat kusalaat, ker deepak koonye pade. "

>

> At present times such terrible and fearsome sins are taking place,

> that simply by listening, one's hair stands on ends, eyes become

> filled with tears, and heart is deeply moved ! Ram Ram Ram, what

> terrible unjustice, what fearsome sins are taking place, but your

> attention is not going there at all ! Human body is said to be the

> rarest of all all forms of life -

> " Durlabho maanushyo deho dehinaam shunabhangurah " (Srimad Bhagavat

> 11:2:29)

> " Labdhvaa sudurlabhmidam bahusambhvaante,

> maanushyamarthdamnityampeeh dheerah " (Srimad Bhagavat 11:9:29)

> " bade bhaag maanushya tanu paava. Sur durlabh sab granthnhi

> gaava. " (Manas 7:43:7)

>

> Such a rare human body, is being destroyed at the very beginning.

> It is being cut up along with the jeev, and this is such a great

> offense, it is such injustice, it is a terrible sin! My mind feels

> immense pain, it is feeling great distress, but what to do! The

> human body by which one can realize God, to not allow that human

> body to even be born, and to destroy it, it is the ultimate sin !

> To not allow some soul the opportunity to receive a human body, to

> not allow that human body to even be born, to take medication from

> the beginning and destroy it, through abortion or any other means.

> One has stooped so low - not only to think about going to hell

> themselves, but at the same time not even allowing another soul the

> opportunity for upliftment, for benediction ! Now what is one to

> do? Who to share this with? And who will listen to my point? Is

> there no one listening ?

>

> For ascetics it has been written in the scriptures to not travel

> much during " Chaturmaas " (four months in a year during the rains).

> Because during these month, due to the rains, every seed grows into

> a sappling, which later grows into a tree. By extensive traveling,

> walking, these seedlings come under the feet and are destroyed.

> Therefore during this four month period, the ascetics do not walk

> and roam around much, so that unknowingly no violence is done to

any

> life form. In Bhagavat it has been said, that if you wish to gain

> victory over violence, then reduce the movement of the body -

> " hinsaa kaayaadhyaneehayaa. " (Bhagavat 7:15:23). When there is

> so much thought put into non-violence around immovable things, then

> what to speak on the subject of movable beings? But nowadays, the

> best of all movable life forms, better than even the devatas, the

> human body, is being contemplated for destruction, what a state of

> affairs we are in ! (to be continued)

>

> From " Saadhan, Sudhaa, Sindhu " pg 946 in Hindi by Swami

Ramsukhdasji

>

> For full online discourses in Hindi, please visit Swami

> Ramsukhdasji's website. http://www.swamiramsukhdasji.org

> --------------------------

>

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QUESTION 1: If raped, the fact is the baby formed is not at fault.

One does not have the right to kill a child just because of that

fact. What would be such a case when rape occurs and the child is

aborted?

QUESTION 2: Paaraashersmriti - " Yat paapam brahmahattyaa

dvigunam garbhapaatane; Praayashchitam ne tasyaasti tatsyaasyaago

vidhiyate " – where to find this reference?

QUESTION 3: Does Gita make any reference to abortion?

QUESTION 4: Please provide helpful slogans for Bill-boards.

QUESTION 5: Please also elaborate on sins accumulated by males

responsible for the rape?

 

--------------------------------

 

NEW POSTING

Hari Om

 

This refers to the question of Dr Rampersad as to who comes forward

to help the mother after we encourage her not to abort?.

 

Doctor ! Who feeds every creature every day ? Who sustains this

world? Who made males, females, this creation, Oceans, Sun, Moon,

Stars, Air, Water, Fire, Space, Bodies, Food , Minerals ? Do you or

me or the mother in question or the child or some one else ? Who

made us as humans ? Why ? How ?

 

Doctor ! Who decided that whether you should be a male or a female ?

Black or white? Born in a hut or in a palace? Born where in this

world ? Living for 50 years or 100 years or 100 hours or 100 months?

Did you , me or our parents or some body/thing else ?

 

Doctor ! I dunno as to your age and experience , but tell me as a

sadhak as to what is our role in this unique creation ? What are our

direct experiences ?

 

If you feel that " I am the doer " - then who preserves an absolute

orphan who becomes orphan , say from day 1? ( Is it not possible/

practical ?) Who arranged milk in our Mom's person ? Who will take

care of us , when we are absolutely incapable of doing any effort of

our own , say in our old age or say when we are very sick ? Who

circulates blood constantly in your vessels ? Who is responsible for

regular or irregular heart beats? Who made immunity systems in the

body ? Can we replicate such creation?

 

Think over these inputs. Think as to what is God , what is Destiny ,

what is Self and why that is . Just think a fresh. Please come

back ! That you should once we have entered Divine Satsanga !!

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

------------------------------

Interesting arguments. Here are mine to add to the bandwagon!

 

When we see from the dharma-karma cycle, all these 'events " of birth

and death are but mere waves in the ocean of consciousness. Given

that, attaching such opinions to either is interesting in itself.

 

When a mother chooses to abort her baby, she adds to her own karma

or she could be erasing the karma of the unborn fetus. Just reflect

on the story of Ganga and the 8 Vasus in the Mahabharatha. She

drowns out all the 7 and the last one becomes Devavrath/ Bheeshma.

There is an Upa katha regarding the Vasus not wanting to be bound to

human life and sorry about being cursed to take human birth.

Likewise the " killing " of the 6 children prior to Krishna by Kamsa-

there, he takes the karma of the terrible murders of newborn infants.

 

As per the shastras there are 3 possible times when the atma enters

the foetus -

at the moment of conception, during pregnancy or at birth. So, it

depends entirely on the mother what she wishes to do with the fetus.

What is a 'greater " karma path - abortion or having to live a life

with the born child? This is something that can be answered only by

the mother and the " time " she finds herself in. I do not believe we

can sit at our keyboards and decide for her. And interestingly,

based on the " mind set " of the mother at that particular time,

she can choose either wise.

 

Cheers,

Meenakshi Srinivasan

 

------------------------------

My dandavats to all.....

I am praying that I may not offend anyone in this forum....but I

am forced by my committment to truth to say what I understand to be

such.,Is the solution for women who are not taken care of, who are

not protected by either father, husband, or son and thereby raped,

to go and murder their child? The problem begins with the

government taking reponsibility for the citizens. If the leaders of

society would impose proper punishment to the rapist, then men would

think very carefully about putting their hands on a woman they had

no business touching.

 

Dr. Rampersad has stated..... " Who comes forward to help the woman

bring up this child, after we encourage her to have this child? If

she wants the child, fine, if she does not want the child, then that

is also fine. "

 

I personally do not think that aborting a child will ever truly

make anyone, especially the mother, feel " fine " . If the scenario is

that she doesn't want the child, is it possible that through

discussion with older, more mature women, she can develop a sense of

acceptance, a feeling of love, regardless if the circumstances are

painful. That soul is there, taking shelter of you, dear woman,

will you kill someone who has taken shelter of you? This would seem

to me to be a ghastly, unforgiveable concept....a soul comes to

another soul, under whatever circumstances, the soul (baby) has

come....it is totally dependant for food, nourishment, peaceful

environment, whatever it is given, it is dependent.....and the host

shall determine, " this guest is uninvited....I will kill it so I

don't have to be troubled " . There is absolutely no reason not to

think of the unborn baby as a guest.....he or she is a soul who has

come to stay in another's house (body).

 

The deeper problem in society is that families are not staying

together, elders are not loved and respected, cared for patiently by

the children whom they raised. The caring for elderly people

instills patience and love in younger generation....without this

patience and loving mood, how will young ladies develop as mothers

themselves? But finding surrogate mothers, fathers, etc. is not

wrong. I left home at 14 to live in a Krishna temple....hence I

have had to constantly examine and search for loving relationships

to help me understand my role in society, and how to learn proper

interaction.

 

Murderering an unborn guest who has entered our womb will never

make any woman " fine " . It will only harden the heart, and then once

the action is done, it is as if one had smashed a precious work of

art.....indeed, the most precious. It cannot be picked up and glued

back together after being destroyed. To suggest such a thing, I

feel, indicates a lack of understanding of the fact that when a

young girl or woman is bewildered, she needs support to love, to

care, to be brave, to pray to the Lord and to the Divine Mother to

give her the stability to nurture, when perhaps she never had much

herself. Because to do anything else would deprive her of the sense

of motherhood, the growing within herself of the qualities of a

beautiful, loving, caring, sensitive and fulfilled being. To guide

anyone to abort a child is truly not thinking of the future

developement or conscious of the mother, for once the act is done,

then there is so much other chaos, which cannot ever be erased. And

none of this is known to the poor girl who is being told to

abort....she doesn't realize that " if I had known how I felt

afterward, I would never have done it " .

 

If society does or does not come forth to help a woman, still

this does not justify murdering a guest. We all must accept our

karma, and pray to not incur more.....but let us also try to give

strength and support to help others be more loving....then little by

little, the karma of mother Bhumi's miserable condition may change.

She is a mother, she is supporting us.....with a grateful heart, let

us follow her example of giving, not taking, life.

 

With deepest concern and love, Mahalaksmi Dasi

 

-------------------------------

Namasthe all, regarding the question : QUESTION 1: If raped, the

fact is the baby formed is not at fault.

One does not have the right to kill a child just because of that

fact. What would be such a case when rape occurs and the child is

aborted?

 

I guess, some of the sadhaks have replied their opinions here. My

humble opinion is: Read and listen whatever has been said but one

needs to use one's own judgement in making these decisions. As one

of the sadhaks has said: what would you do if you are in the

position of that woman ?

 

Just a thought :

If you are insisting that the woman who has been raped need to have

a child, think about this: Would you purposely and knowingly help a

woman who has been victimised by rape and make your children play

with her children and make sure that you support her with whatever

you can. Do not worry of whether she should abort or not but

instead, try to focus on helping the child already born of rape

knowingly. By seeing your actions, other women will try to see that

they need not abort. Also, if you are a man, if one is not married

and he thinks that a woman who is raped should not abort the kid,

then let him marry that woman and become the father of the unborn

kid.

 

Talking and advising is easy. Standing firm with what we talk is

very difficult. also, if you a woman and think that the woman should

keep the unborn kid, support the other woman who is raped with

raising of her kid ? Let there be no expection when helping the

mother raise her kid. (having no expection for any of your actions

is Karma yoga).. Let your actions say the message and not your words.

 

Regards,

Bharathi

-------------------------------

 

Dear Sadaks,

 

Killing a child in womb or the lady commiting suicide is Brahmahatya

Dosh. One does not have rights to kill (himself or other). By doing

so the soul hangs in space suffers lot until it`s original date of

death. Every action done for the needs of the self comes under

Prarabdha Karma which one cannot escape the reaction. Such a woman,

will be reborn as woman, and will not be able to concieve a child,

experiencing untold misery and unhappiness due to longing mind for a

child.

 

King Dasaratha while hunting accidently and unknowingly shot arrow

at a boy which led to curse of separation from Sri Rama. Bhagavan

Shiva had committed Brahmahatya dosam, and for that had to beg with

bowl until Mahalakshmi filled the bowl. Bhagavan Vishnu took the

form of a king to make a queen (Maha Pathni) believe HIM to be her

husband. Bagavan never even went near her thereafter. But having

taken that form a curse came that Bagavan should become stone. That

is Salagrama. In all these cases it was for loka Kalyan

(upliftment/salvation/liberation of others). Arjuna was in Indra Lok

when Menaka/Urvasi invited Him for pleasures. In indra lok such acts

of engaging with differant persons not a sin. But Arjuna was cursed

for refusing, with being a Bedi (Neither Woman, Nor Man). This

disguise " bedi " was useful during the year of hiding in forest.

Sastras said that killing a person to save a village, dstroying a

village, to save a large town, are not sin. Any act that benefits

(leads to salvation) for more people (Lok Kalyan) is what must be

done.

 

B.Sathyanarayan

 

-------------------------------

Jai Hanuman

 

Very Good ,Doc Bhaiyya? Great !!

 

By the way, what according to you, Brother, was the practical teaching of Lord

Krishna to Arjuna in " aapadharma " which was sound/appropriate enough for you to

conclude that for the same or similar reasons " the normal laws of morals or

ethics can not be established blindly- in case of rape / injustice " ? Please

enlighten, Jee !

 

What is " aapad " (emergent) according to you? What is " dharma " according to you?

What according to you are normal laws of morals and ethics, Jee ? How they are

so, Jee ? Why they are so, Jee? Who made them so, Jee ? Are they so, Bhaiyya ?

 

What were the reasons according to you which made Arjuna to deviate from what

you call to be " normal moral/ethical laws " , Dear Brother?. Did he really deviate

from them? How did he deviate ? Why did he ? Why he could not have conducted

otherwise ?

 

This is a divine forum of sadhaks, Bhaiyya Jee !! Feel free to state the voice

of your " self " or " mind " or " ego " or " intellect " or " conscience " or " body " or of

" friends " or of " hearsay " ! Whatever and however you prefer to respond !. Go

ahead , Kindly - Jee ! But respond for sure ! There are not many questions , if

you think ? Certainly not as many as are interrogation marks in this very

response of mine !

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

--------------------------------

Salutations to all in this Forum

 

Any controls on creation are direct interventions in the role of

God. It may result (or rather it has resulted/ does result always)

in calamities. Life when you look back and see, appears to all of us

as dream or non-existent. Humans are different species altogether.

They have to face the life as it comes. They should not run like

dogs for mere sensual pleasures. A female is much higher than males,

and advicing her that abortion is justifiable (in any circumstance

whatsoever) is a crime in itself. Women create and nurture the men.

Women are mothers and mothers are needed. What is there in the world

if there is no mother ? Imagine, the state of a motherless world !!

Just imagine !

 

Luca Brasi

--------------------------------

 

PRIOR POSTING

 

Ragarding Hari Deo's comments, religion is Duty! Duty is

religion ! Where is the distinction between the two? Does " Duty "

have no role when an innocent helpless one is murdered ruthlessly?

Who has entitled us to control Creation? As one sadhak stated, are

we even capable of doing anything if we cannot pass urine? Surely we

have to seek the help of a doctor. What is then our power? Ever

checked with child-less couples about their state (which includes

10% of the world population, and on the rise). How much more do we

want to contribute to this rise? Why?

 

Lallubhai C

--------------------------

Who comes forward to help the woman bring up this child, after we

encourage her to have this child? If she wants the child, fine, if

she does not want the child, then that is also fine.

 

It is a woman's right to determine what she should do with her body.

Particularly in case of rape, and life and death or any other

justifiable situations.

 

Bhagwan Krishna taught Arjuna how to be practical in the face of

appaddharma. This is also a case of special circumstances and the

normal laws of morality and ethics cannot be applied blindly.

 

Dr. Rampersad

--------------------------

Namaste to sadhaks

 

Mr Naga - if your observations are accepted by a confused,

dis-illusioned, yet innocent person, then what kind chaos can result

in her and in society at large? Was there any consideration given

to women being viewed as mere cheap objects of pleasures for men ?

Is this advocating for them? Or is it insulting them and

motherhood. The way I read into the advice that is being offered –

One should kill the child because when he comes out of womb there

will be no loving embrace of father. Or kill the child because some

one else sinned against the woman. X commits a sin against Y, then

by what kind of logic can justify Y doing a more brutal act, an

ultimate sin (abortion) against Z? What exactly is being

communicated? Why is it being said ? Who are you saying it to? How

are you saying it? In this forum all are sadhaks are people who are

drawn towards God, towards duty, towards the ultimate bliss and

freedom. Kindly re-think your message.

 

No ! Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj can never say a wrong word. What a

mother will not do to protect an unborn child ! SHE WILL GO TO ANY

LENGTH FOR PROTECTING AN UNBORN CHILD! That is mother!!

 

I join hands in support of divine work of Prem Khullar. I totally

agree with various sadhaks in support of unborn child .

 

Bandook Singh

--------------------------

Jai Chandi Maata

 

Mr Hari Shanker Deo - your comment about - bringing religion in

matters regarding abortion needs to be reconsidered /elaborated

by you. Can you tell as to how you arrived at the conclusion that if

religion is brought in this ghastly human conduct, then each lady

would deliver 20 children? Even if that is true, for

argument's sake, then can you let the sadhaks know as to how that

would be improper according to you? Also where according to you

religion is useful and where it is not useful? Please explain there

as to what else according to you is useful where religion has no

role to play? Who then plays the role? Also describe what do you

mean by saying- " unwanted children " ? How abortion is the answer for

what you want or you don't want ? No body cuts the body to suit the

trousers ! Isn't it?

 

I agree whole-heartedly with Mahalaxmi Dasi.

 

Fajeeti Rani

----------------------------

 

PRIOR POSTING

 

-Shree Hari-

 

I thought I would write down a few words that came to me when

reflecting on such a diabolical thing. Prem Khullarji, I am truly

sorry I do not have the knowledge to help with the sacred scriptures.

It is my absolute desire that Bhagwan will guide you, and bless you.

All I can do is bow my head in sorrow.

 

Do not murder me mumma dear.

I have joy to give, and laughter to give,

loving arms to embrace you.

Please do not make a silent space.

Mumma, I implore you.

 

With Respect and Divine Love,

 

Mike Keenor

------------------------------

 

Raam Raam Raam

 

Vandanaji's message was really soul toching and so was of Shirin.

If we can understand a simple fact that human life is not given to

us for any enjoyment or pleasures and that this life is a " KARMA

YONI' or " SADHAN YONI " where you have to do your duties only- the

entire discussion gets summed up there. If we can even understand

that this entire creation is a " lila of God " the thorn of

dissatisfaction felt by females gets removed. If we can understand

and appreciate the fact that there is one accurate and precise Law

of Karma in operation in this world , a Law which is blind, ruthless

but just and equitable, a law which is governing the the entire

humanity, then we shall understand as to why one is given the birth

as a male or female , or as to why it is the duty of female to

protect the fetus. We are in fact considering the Laws made by

Paramatma and are finding faults with each other. Males are not

happy with females and vice versa. We dont even resist from finding

faults with the creation and the creator. IF ONLY WE BELIEVE EITHER

IN PARAMATMA, OR IN PURUSHARTHA OR IN PRABDHA- such bitterness shall

not arise. But we are looking at the world as REAL, as a PLEASURE

GIVING CREATION and hence this state of affairs. Why blame males ?

Some body has to conceive. What if child becomes parentless on the

day 1? Does it not happen? What if another catastrophe occurs ?

UNLESS WE BELIEVE AND ACCEPT THAT THIS WORLD IS A MIRAGE/DREAM/LILA

OF GOD and our role is to play our duties diligently and realise

Paramatma - aeons will pass but we shall be no where near the

PEACE !!! If some female has been wronged, raped - she has not

incurred any sin. The male has incurred sin. Only when she because

someone has done injustice to her, does the same thing with another

innocent soul- she sins, not before. Hence -Vandanaji -scriptures

advice females against abortion.

 

Females can draw the solace from the fact that the brute males shall

not be spared similarly from the wrongs done to females. Law of

Karma will hit them more brutally. There is no need of quoting

scriptures to substantiate that. It goes without saying. When our

role is to do our own DUTY only - arising out of whatever

circumstances Law of Karma/Paramatma/Mother Nature has presented to

us in this otherwise DUKHALAYAM ASHASHWATHAM - then what remains to

be the issue ? ACCEPT THE CIRCUMSTANCES AS IT IS, DO YOUR DUTY, DONT

LOOK AT OTHER'S DUTY, REALISE GOD and ENJOY THE COMPANY OF PARAMATMA

FOREVER. Leave these worldly brutes, preachers, to their own fate.

GET YOURSELF OUT OF IT. That is all

 

Pranaam to all sadhaks

 

Beenani S

 

---------------------------

My dandavats to all in this forum,

In response to the questions posed below, I would like to attempt to

address point by point the suggestions made by our sadhak, Naga

Narayan.

 

Please explain, how one can deal with the issue of life/death in an

impersonal way? (as you have begun your presentation saying, " I

have to be pragmatic and impersonal..... " ) Is this truly something

that makes any sense? How does one discuss the issue of a mother

killing her child in an admittedly impersonal way? Something is

very wrong here, and I am not saying this to find fault. Please,

kindly ask yourself this question, How is it possible to state, " I

will deal with this issue in an impersonal way " ....when the very

nature of the subject is extremely personal, so much so that many

woman cannot live without their child? How can a man know the grief

and pain and heartache a mother would feel when her child is taken

away? Only if he is extremely mature on an emotional level, having

undergone very deep growth either in this life or previous, will he

be ALLOWED to know this pain. It is not an easy thing for a man to

know the depth of a womans' pain.

 

In the story of Prahlad Maharaj, we learn from the Srimad

Bhagavatam that the demigods had made a decision to arrest the

mother of Prahlad, while he was still in the womb, and when the

child was born, to kill him. Because his father, a terrible demon,

was performing austerities by which to conquer over the demigods,

and the fearful demigods were anxious that the child within the womb

would be an even greater demon. The great sage, Narada Muni,

arrived on the scene, and chastised the fearful demigods,

saying, " Even if you wanted to kill this child, you would not be

able to. He is a great devotee of the Lord " . Narada then took the

mother to his ashram, and constantly uttered Hari Katha, which was

heard by the embryo. When Prahlad was developing as a child, he is

renowned for instructing his school friends to sing the glories of

Lord Krsna, to put devotion before everything.

 

What right do any of us have to say what will be the character of

any given child? Or what will be it's destiny after leaving the

womb of the mother? Certainly, if you walk up to orphan's in the

street, very few will say, " Yes, we would prefer to have died. "

 

You speak of the child within the womb not having a decent father.

This is certainly tragic, but isn't it more tragic for someone to

say, " Child, you should be dead rather than live without the love of

your father " . I personally cannot comprehend this logic. Isn't the

Supreme Lord the father of all? Isn't he able to manifest in so

many, various forms, to help the living entities in this world? I

can speak from personal experience, if the child has one good

parent, either mother or father, they can conquer. They can go on

to achieve wonderful things.

 

There is a statement below, " the questions that would bother me if I

impose my personal agenda of anti-abortion are many … Well, my

dear Prabhu....when did anyone's presentation of defending the

rights of an unborn fetus become " my personal agenda " ? Speaking the

truth, that murder is sinful, is never, never, never going to become

any individual's personal agenda. It is crystal clear who actually

has a personal agenda.

 

What is the point of this forum? For anyone to give their

own " personal agenda " ? No. It is to elucidate, in regard to the

teachings of the ancient scriptures, what is proper conduct for

human beings.

 

I AM NOT ONE TO BLINDLY FOLLOW ANY TEACHINGS. IT IS NOT ONLY IN

AMERICA THAT A WOMAN HAS THE RIGHT TO BE LOVING, TO BE RESPECTED, TO

BE PROUD OF THE CONCEPT OF " I AM A MOTHER'. All women have this

right, and for any man to try to justify a woman killing her child,

is to attempt to strip her of everything that is precious to the

concept of not just a woman, but also that of a mother. What

memories are you speaking of, that she will have if the child is

born? You did not mention the horrendous guilt and memories she

would have after killing her child? Why not mention those alongside

the other.

 

Certainly men these days need to look at their traditional

roles, and what gives SOME of them the sense that women are merely

objects of their pleasure. To those men, my prayers, that you may

somehow become educated...become wise...go beyond your inflated,

pompous ego, and understand that the women of the world who truly

seek to be righteous, to be motherly, to be beautiful.....are what

will save this planet. I do not speak of all " women " .....there are

souls in both categories, of men and women, who are selfish,

destructive to themselves and others, and unable to uplift

themselves. Only our prayers for their benefit.....

 

In concluding, please allow me to examine one last paragraph.....

How correct is it on my part to insist the woman to forget that she

is also a human being entitled equally to liberty of actions and

freedom of thoughts just like me? Is it not that such victims should

be given more freedom to express themselves? … as they truly want?

 

Is this the words of a male " women's libber " ? As they were called

back in the seventies and eighties? Where does " entitled equally

to liberty of action and freedom of thought " enter into the picture

of the life of one who is dedicated to spiritual growth? Whether

male or female, if an individual studies the Gita and other sacred

teachings, even if he/she is not HIndu, still there is acceptance of

a path of religious or proper conduct. One must accept that various

courses of action have to be abandoned. Meat eating is not

conducive to spiritual life. Nor is intoxication, illicit sexual

relations, gambling, or killing of unborn babies. Regardless of how

they entered into the womb. This goes for men, as well as women.

I remember back in 1980, when I was first married, there was an

Indian doctor in Colorado where I was living in my first year of

marriage. He quit his job at the hospital, because he was

instructed to perform an abortion. He could not do it, as he had

some understanding, that, " I am NOT entitled equally to liberty of

action " . His thought was, " I am bound by the teachings of my

superiors, of my culture " . When one desires to grow in love for the

supreme, he or she does not stop thinking, feeling, expressing, but

still there is a narrow path to follow. If one wanders from that

path, he or she will be eaten by the tigers of material enjoyment.

So, suit yourselves, dear readers, if you choose to demand " freedom

of thought " , in the sense that " anything goes " . Karma will continue

to flow, whether we declare we are free of it or not. I can boldly

place my hand in a blazing fire, declaring, " I will not be burnt! "

but guess what? I will be horribly burnt. And that is not blind

religious dogma, it is merely the truth.

 

respectfully submitted, Mahalaksmi DAsi

---------------------------

Nobody likes to abort. But abortion is common these days to prevent

unwanted births due to failure of family planning. To bring religion

into it is silly because otherwise each woman would produce 20

children and the world would come to an end.

 

Hari Shanker Deo

---------------------------

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

We all become despondent like Arjuna over the course of this

spiritual journey, yet if we hear Sri Krishna's message to the

despondent Arjuna, the ultimate victory is only in following dharma,

whether it be rape or any other situation.

 

Human birth is RAREST and BEST form of all births, (1 of 8.4 million

species), and the ONLY birth where salvation is possible, therefore

to destroy at inception ??? We don't know the potential of that

Soul at inception. He / she could become one of the greatest

Saints !! a Mahatma ! and not to even give it a chance? can that

make any sense from a dharmic perspective?

 

To reiterate / summarize Varun Paprunia has stated Swamiji's

response on tough issue such as rape. Please re-read it. To

summarize some key points -

 

1) Rapist will incur terrible sin, and even woman too if she derived

pleasure.

2) Woman who aborts will definitely incur the sin of abortion.

Swamiji goes so far as to say, not to abort even if life of woman is

in danger, therefore aborting after rape is out of the question.

3) If raped women, becomes pregnant, best to give birth, nuture if

possible, if not turn over for adoption.

4) If unmarried becomes pregnant, it is better to bear the

defamation for committed sin than abortion, suicide or running from

home.

 

Swamiji's article " Abortion - Worst of All Sins " pg 990 - Saadhan,

Sudha, Sindhu in Hindi, is a must read for all and any one in this

dilemma. It is on a Video called " Silent Scream " by Dr. Nathenson,

who out of curiosity had take the ultrasound video of the entire

abortion procedure. However after watching that video, neither the

doctor who aborted, nor Dr. Nathenson, ever again returned back to

their clinic. I have the English translation, if there is interest I

could post.

 

Meera Das

Ram Ram

 

---------------------------

 

PRIOR POSTING

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

I have been a member of this group from the past few months

and have been quite influenced by the thoughts expressed by sadhaks.

But I am surprised to see that blame of abortions has been laid only

on the women. I think body of the female is involved but their male

counterparts are also equally responsible for the sin. why the

learned and respected sadhaks are counting sins that will be upon

the female involved in the sin. As I said physical body of the

female is involved and as I have learned form this sat sang only

that body is unreal and nothing it is the soul that is real. I

think the soul of their male counterparts should be equally

responsible for the sin. Can all these learned people who have read

so many scriptures also count the sins that would be upon the males

to discourage them from such acts. I think if the males desist from

misusing female body and are forthcoming in having responsibilities

of the child no woman on earth would like to abort.

 

VANDANA

---------------------------

NOTE: My response had to be lengthy ... pl. wield patience to

examine the same ... Apologies ... Naga.

 

About abortion, its insanity and its sanity

===========================================

 

I am unable to contain myself with this burning social issue on

which enormous confusion is looming around from ages. I decided not

to pursue this further … but, could not help but to get back.

 

There has been considerable debate on the issue of abortion here.

Considerable emotions are thrown in as well. It is good to know that

there are so many souls sensitive enough on the serenity of life.

 

OF COURSE, ABORTION IS A HIDEOUSLY PAINFUL CONCEPT AND A HEINOUS

REALITY TO ANY SANE PERSON.

 

It is not acceptable to me in person as well! The true question here

is, should it not be acceptable at any cost? I have to be pragmatic

and impersonal to address such a grave question.

 

FYI, the burning question is,

 

" Whether a raped woman has right NOT to bear the resultant feutus? "

 

NOT, " Whether abortion is good or not? "

 

I request you all to review your opinions with this in mind. When I

uttered what I did, I put myself in such a woman's position and felt

what it would be like in meditation. If it helps, put yourselves or

your beloved ones in such a position and then think about such

burning questions. Blindly quoting scriptures cannot resolve social

issues. Resonance with the problems with utter transparency can

alone bring resolution to such issues. Therefore, I again urge you

all … put yourselves and/or your beloved ones in such a woman's

condition … and then think. PLEASE.

 

The questions that would bother me if I impose my personal agenda of

anti-abortion are many …

 

How correct is it on my part to insist the woman to forget that she

is also a human being entitled equally to liberty of actions and

freedom of thoughts just like me? Is it not that such victims should

be given more freedom to express themselves? … as they truly want?

 

How correct is it to insist that violation of her core existence is

nothing when compared to some values that I belieive in, whatsoever

it is?

 

Suppose the woman listens and bears the child. She is obviously

tormented by the memory of her violation all through as the feutus

as well as the future child keeps this torment alive by keeping the

memories alive … how can she conduct herself as a mother with joyous

love toward the child when she herself is tormented?

 

How can any value I preach replace her torment? Nobody here seems to

be bothered about what to do the bastard who violated her! All are

throwing stones of religious insistence on the poor woman who is

already suffering from her misfortune!! What difefrence is there

between ones who physically kill such innocent victims with stones

and the ones who are throwing stones of guilt to kill her

psychologically?

 

On the other hand, the child who missed the true love and compassion

of a mother … can my religious insistance take responsibility for

such children's welfare? Can anything, even god, replace the joyous

love of a mother?

 

Suppose the child was born … there is no father … after all, how can

a rapist be a father? Even if he takes such a role, it is worse than

not having one … Have you ever considered the fate of a father-less

child? Can anything such as religion replace a father to a child?

 

What rights do we have to impose motherhood on a woman who is not

ready?

 

What rights do we have to deceive the child off its mother's joyous

love?

 

What rights do we have to dismiss the heavenly affection of a father

to such a child?

 

Afterall, if a child grows in such anarchical circumstances … what

person would it turn out to be? … a depressed vegetable, a synical

contortionist or a cruel criminal … what rights do we have have to

impose such a tax on the rest of the soceity?

 

I have not touched upon many smaller, but yet burningly real, issues

… Who will bear the econmoc burden of supporting the unfortunate

mother and the fatherless child? Who will bear the social burden of

keeping the unfortunate woman and her child happy? Is it worth being

an orphan struggling for a mouthful on the streets? I can not answer

this … an orphan can and should!

 

It is OK … the woman gave birth to a child … what about the rest of

her life? Who will marry her? If not, her whole womanhood is wasted

… in our own terms, it is a bigger sin that she is not bearing

children anymore … unless the religion summons her to keep

reproducing children the same way!!! Should it?

 

After all what use was there by the honourable religion's

intervention in such personal issues? Could it make the woman happy?

Could it make the child happy? Could it contribute to soceity's

health anyway?

 

FINALLY, CAN MY IDEOLOGY OF ANTI-ABORTION SUPERCEDE ALL THE

CONSEQUENTIAL SOCIAL CALAMITIES?

 

Answers to such subtle questions are always circumstantial. The

soceity is ever dynamic and keeps changing its value structure.

Accordingly social solutions should evolve to keep the soceity as

well as its elements in in its healthy dynamic equilibrium.

Reference to scriptures is valuable only if it is interpreted with

the circumstantial sanity in mind. For example, one might have

realized god ... it does not mean that the victim is also god-

realized. One should get into the victim's shoes to experience the

agony and search for the solution there. That requires the thinkers

of the soceity to resonate with the issue. As a spiritual seeker I

accept the highest degree of social responsibility Bhagavan Vyaasa

instructs me with:

 

Yadyadaacharati shreshthastattadev'taro janaah |

Sa yatpramaanam kuru te lokaastadanuvartate ||

 

Because others are probably gullible to just take the advise from

an " apparently intelligent source " … as a spiritual seeker I need to

consider the background of the soceity thoroughly without pushing my

personal ideologies …

 

Therefore … I request you all to put yourselves in the spot,

meditate on the issue ... and, then deliberate. PLEASE.

 

AGAIN, the question is, " Whether a raped woman has right NOT to bear

the resultant feutus? " This question does not raise if she is happy

to bear it on her own.

 

AND, the question is NOT, " Whether abortion is good or not? " –

answer to this is self-evident and does not require further

deliberation.

 

Respects

 

Naga Narayana.

-

 

 

Namaskar!

Personally felt revolted by the question in such a forum. In Gita we

talk of

karmayog. If one has done evil in any one of your even hundred or

thousand lifes

when we were on earth, obviously the same happens by law of Karma

when time is

right by Lord. Even Lord Krishna was not spared of this if one

recalls A bow was

shot on his ankle as some hunter had mistaken him for an animal from

far. The

person concerned was agahast what happened then Lord Krishna pointed

out that

during his incarnation as Lord Ram in earlier Yug he had done the

same to I

think one of the sacred trribe of monkeys , I do not recall exact

name think

ItsSugrir. In fact Lord Krishna was teaching mankind that none is

above law of

karma.In simple lanaguge what one gives comes back to you in some

form or other,

good or bad. That's the spiritual look at the problem From

humanitarian approach

all possible help to be given to victim to come back to normal and

remove the

scars of her traumatic experience, by counselling sessions by lady

doctors over

a period of few months, as the victim me relive it and start

sweating thinking

of it in sleep and scream.

 

If it is woman who is subject to such a heinous crime, she has every

right to

remove the foetus, provided it is before 12 weeks when new life sets

in. Before

that it is a mere lump of body flesh.

 

Request that spiritual things be discussed not such things, as it is

brining

down the level of decorum of Sacred Gita discussions. Nothing will

be gained

spiritually in any way by talking of man's falling moral standards

and brute

like attitude, only change will be we will become lower in

spirtuality. After

all a man is known by company he keeps. Surely there are more better

spiritual

topics than this!! We are nobody to judge others and point fingers

at them, as 4

fingers point back to us. We need to improve ourselves looking at

every

intention of ours like does it havve traced of moha, lobh krodh,

voilence,

rectify oursleves and be fit before we even consider improving

others.

 

Gratitude

 

shirin

 

---------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

 

Jai Hanuman

 

How the " mother " was and how the " mother " has now become - in this

Kaliyuga ! Killing own children ! Indeed - words can't express the

anguish of the soul !! ( Mike Bhaiyya ! I used your words- anguish

of soul !)

 

TU KITNI ACHHI HAI ? TU KITNI BHOLI HAI ? PYAARI PYAARI HAI ! O

MAA ! O MAA !

 

How good are you O Mom ! How docile are you O Mom! Oye Lovely Lovely

Jee ! O Mom ! O Mom!!

 

KI YE JO DUNIYA HAI , YE VAN HAI KAANTO KA , TU FULWAARI HAI ! O

MAA ! O MAA !!

 

That what is this world? This is only a forest of thorns ! You are

mass of flowers in it !! O Mother ! O Mother !!

 

APNA NAHIN TUJHE SUKH DUKH KOI , MAIN MUSKAAYA TU MUSKAAI , MAIN

ROYA TU ROYI !!

 

O Mom! You have no concern for your own pleasures and pains at all !

If I smile , you smile ! If I cry , you cry !!

 

MERE HANSANE PE , MERE RONE PE , TU BALIHAARI HAI ! O MAA , O MAA !!

 

You are ever loving - irrespective of whether I smiled or I cried !

You agree to however I am !! O Mom ! O Mom !!

 

MAA BACHON KI JAAN HOTI HAI ! WOH HOTE HAI KISMAT WALE JINKE MAA

HOTI HAI !!

 

A Mother is the very life force of the child. Fortunate are those ,

whose mother lives long !

 

KITNI SHEETAL HAI, KITNI SUNDAR HAI , NYAARI NYAARI HAI ! O MAA , O

MAA !!

 

How calm ! How adorable !! Always exclusive , super exclusive !! O

Mother ! O Mother !!

 

Hey Daddy the Great ! O Mom !! Kindly save us all from such ghastly

crimes !

 

Agreed, O Binanee S, Jee ! Agreed Vyas NB Jee !! Agreed Mahalaxmi

Maiyyaji !!! Agreed Mira Bahenji !!!! Mike Bhaiyya- sitting with

consort??? - how difficult it can become - when BG 18:32 is

operational?? - for both and each one ? Baba ! Where are we going ?

 

KAHAAN JAA RAHA HAI , TU AIYE JAANE WALE ! ANDHERA HAI MAN KAA DIYA

TO JALALE !!

 

Where are you going O Traveller ? There is darkness all around ! Why

don't you burn the light of " CONSCIENCE " within ?

 

May all understand what is way out of BG 18:32 !!!

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

--------------------------

 

Hari Om

 

Khullarji. Here are some slogans

 

* Silent scream of the fetus - what is my fault O Mummy ? What is my

fault O daddy ?

 

* Don't suck life out of me! Save m ! Save me! Have mercy on me ! I

will bring pleasures in your garden! O mummy - I am your daughter

only!

 

 

* Mera kasoor kya hai ?

 

* O mom ! Please give me birth. My own fate will take care of me

thereafter!

 

* O murderers! You will not even get water in future births what to

talk of food !

 

* O parents ! You enjoyed and I get killed! Is this humanity?

 

* Even a witch leaves at least one house unharmed! Don't kill fetus

in the womb ! Even witches don't do that!

 

* Fetus killing - a frightful disrespect to motherhood !

 

* You want to increase production on one hand and kill producer in

the womb itself- what kind of wisdom is this? What kind of

government is this?

 

* Birth control means converting a female into a prostitute !

 

* Control death first and then think of controlling birth !

 

* Fetus killing is resorted by those who neither believe in

Paramatma, nor in prarbdha (destiny) nor in purushartha!

 

* Getting medical test done, finding female fetus in the womb and

killing ! Is this respect to a woman? Is this a way of giving women

equal rights?

 

* O mothers! Don't lose the power of motherhood for ever! Don't kill

your child! Don't become object of pleasure only for men! Don't

become prostitutes!

 

* Kill fetus and become a non fruit bearing tree forever!

 

* Don't be so merciless O parents ! There will be no one left even

to give you a drop of water in future!

 

* Female fetus killing is the surest method of eliminating mothers

from the planet ! In whose womb you shall sleep in the next birth?

 

* Even bitches, witches and vampires do not kill their own children!

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

 

 

---------------------------

My dandavats to all in this forum...

MY heart breaks when I read the post of Prem Kullar. It is so

terrible that the east has taken up the course of following

activities of the west. I have lived in america my entire life, and

although perhaps I am " privileged " in the sense that I own propety,

car, etc.....I am extremely aware that there is no culture here in

America. No deep rooted traditions, no religious coloring of any

particular faith, and no strong bonds in communities. What little I

could offer in this discussion, is simply WHY? WHY? WHY FOLLOW THE

WEST? Though Sri Krsna's love is everywhere, though daily I

encounter beautiful people with loving hearts, they are suffering so

much in this country. The stress of city life is tremendous.....but

in the country there is no money to be made....(I have done both).

THIS COUNTRY IS DOOMED.....there is very little time left for it due

to its atrocious treatment of the cow, due to abortions, and due to

its policies of usurping and controlling resources of other

nations. WHY, WHY, WHY FOLLOW THE WEST? From the mouth of one

who has lived here my entire life, WAKE UP. I have visited India

twice, both times became completely overwhelmed with love for the

Supreme, to a degree that I am unable to express.....will India give

up all it's accumulated piety to become a hellish pit of

impersonalism and selfishness as the west? I pray not. Again, my

heart aches, what can I say, except all glories to your efforts,

Prem....to stop murder. To open the eyes of those who are blind....

 

In the words of Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta in his purport to bhagavad

Gita, " Those who commit such abominable acts will never see the

light of day again. "

So, the chain of karma will continue.....those killing the fetus

will themselves have to take birth in a womb and be aborted, time

and time again, to pay the price.

 

respectfully,

Mahalaksmi Dasi

------------------------------

Raam ! Raam !! Raam!!!

 

Some slogans for Mr Prem Khullar

 

1. Dont kill me in the womb itself - O mother ! O father ! I

will come with my own fate supporting me in this world !!!

 

2. Efforts of increasing agricultural production and controlling

births is like efforts of increasing milk in mother's breasts and

then not allowing conception !!!

 

3. Oh Mom ! Dear Mom !!! Why I should get killed when you enjoyed ?

 

4. O Father ! O Mother !! Throw me in a dust bin after giving birth!

But don't kill me when i am so helpless !!

 

5. Please! Please save me O parents ! I have capacity to bring

pleasures for you!

 

6. What is my fault? What my fault?? If you don't save me, who

will?

 

7. Even the wildest and the cruelest of animals do not kill their

own children!

 

With sincere Pranaams to all genuine Sadhaks! Shame on those who

advocate such ghastly acts ! SHAME !! SHAME !!!

 

Beenani S.

 

------------------------------

Hari Om

 

Let me now address Khullarji's query.

 

Swamiji used to put up a bill board outside His temporary abode

every where that - Those who have done sin of abortion may please

not bring " bhiksha " for me ! " Bhiksha " - alm of food. Swamiji would

eat food brought by 5 houses every day.

 

In Manusmriti - 4/208 , it is stated that

 

BHROONAN GHAVEKSHITAM CHAIV SANSPRISHTAM CHAAPYUDAKYAYA !

PATATRINA VALEEDHAM CHA SHUNA SANSPRISHTAMEVA CHA !!

 

One should not eat food (1) touched by female in periods (2)

touched by a dog (3) partially eaten by a bird (4) seen by (what to

say " touched by " ) one who ever indulged in abortion !

 

Verse referred by Khullarji is in Parashar Smriti 4/20.

 

YATPAPAM BRAHMA HATYAYA DVIGUNAM GARBHPATNE !

PRAYASHCHITAM NA TASYAATI TASYATYAAGO VIDHIYATE

 

In Brahma Vaivat Purana ( Prakrati Khand, Chapter 2) it is stated

that in the beginning of creation, the basic prakrati ( Shri Radha)

threw her fetus into waters. God immediately cursed her - From now

onwards you will never have a child. Not only that, by your part

whatever " divya " females will get created they also shall be without

a child. Thereafter from the tongue of Basic Nature (Shri Radha) -

Goddess Saraswati incarnated. Later on that Basic Nature got split

into 2 parts. From Left body - Goddess Laxmi incarnated. From Right

body " Radha " incarnated. God also became two. From half left body He

became " Chaturbhuj Vishnu " (Four armed Vishnu) and from right part

He became two armed " Krishna " ! Both Laxmi and Saraswati were

childless. Then from the pours of Krishna countless " Gopas "

incarnated. From pours of Shri Radha countless " Gopis " manifested.

My understanding is that Gopis were infertile, childless !

 

In " Vriddha Suryarun Karma Vipaak " Scripture it is stated:

 

PURVE JANUSHI YA NAARI GARBHA GHAAT KARI HYABHOOT!

GARBHAPAATEN DUKHARTA SAATRA JANMANI JAAYATE !! (477/1)

 

A Lady who had aborted in past lives, suffers in this life on

account of being childless!

 

VANDHYEYA YA MAHABHAAG PRICHHATI SWAM PRAYOJANAM!

GARBHAPAATRATA PURVE JANUSHYATRA PHALAM TVIDAM !!

 

If some Lady asks why she is issueless, infertile in this life?

Answer is due to abortion in the past life. ( 659/1; 856/1; 921/1;

1857/1)

 

GARBHAPATAN PAPADHYA BABHOOV PRAGBHAVEANDAJ !

SAATREVA TEN PAAPEN GARBHESTHERYA NA VINDATI !!

 

O Arun ! One who aborts in prior life, can not bear child in present

life ! ( 1187/1)

 

As simple as that !

 

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

-----------------------------

Woman Power!

by TA Ramesh

 

Without Shakti, Siva cannot do any duty in all the worlds;

Without power, no matter can be active in the Universe;

Without soul, human body cannot survive in the world!

 

Without mother, children cannot grow hale and healthy;

Without wife, husband cannot maintain family and children;

Without woman, man cannot love and live in the world!

 

Beauty, intelligence and love are the aspects of personality

That helps women stand unique in the world;

But, so emotional by nature that it's impossible

For a woman to keep secrets in her heart;

And so, women let the cat out of the bag easily!

 

Hence women show the skeleton kept in the cup-board

Long to anyone who moves them most!

That's why taboos and restrictions imposed on women

Are perhaps rigorous and heartless in many religions,

That are, now, slowly removed by social reforms

By great movement leaders in the modern world.

 

Literature is also full of the Power of Women

As the Main Theme everywhere in the world!

Without the beautiful woman, Helen at the center of the story,

How can Homer's Iliad ever exist in the world?

Without the virtuous woman, Sita in Valmiki's Great Epic,

Ramayana can ever be read so long?

 

Thousands of years, by law and religion,

Women are kept as under-dogs to men;

Women are not just the Weaker Vessels,

Without whose encouraging support

Vessels of Tears won't survive in the world;

Without the knowledge, intelligence and support

Of Woman Power, no family

Can sustain, develop and survive!

 

with regards

Dilip Ravindran

----------------------------

 

PRIOR POSTING

Namaste,

 

Manu's verse ' yatra naaryastu pUjyante ramante tatra devatAh' ( the

gods rejoice/ are happy, where the woman is worshipped) is, I feel,

a powerful message to inculcate respect for women at whichever stage

she may be.

 

Shubhamastu

Anuradha Choudry

------------------------------

-Shree Hari_

 

Clarification: I was reflecting on a place where I once lived long

ago, I was not in poverty but I saw much of it. I would never ever

imply that one should hold a dagger, as it were, at peoples throat,

and demand they follow, rules on their personal behavior , it is the

opposite to what I am. Options can be shown to them, not killing.

 

Many people revert to medicines of some sort or another, for various

conditions, and it often means the death of some organism or other.

In reality many are based on herbs, and a vegetable origin.

In passing my preference is homeopathy.

 

If I get or any person gets bitten by a snake around here, then to

the hospital quick smart, for an antidote, not to is death. (why die

if one can prevent it?)

 

Driven by compassion one would like to see people live life in

comfort and happiness, why not?

 

Yes Divine Feminine 'Shakti', (she is universal), has been suppressed

for thousands of years, and the world has become unbalanced, she has

to sit with her consort once more.

 

My thoughts are exhausted on the subject, I will just read on.

 

With Respect and Divine Love,

 

Mike Keenor

--------------------------------

 

Raam Raam Raam

 

Great Suggestion is that either you dont make efforts to remain

healthy, to cure any illnesses OR we are justified in stopping new

births into this world. Either you control death or we shall control

birth. As simple as that. Why you are taking medicines to cure

fever ? If you are taking medicines, then we shall abort the child.

What shall the child do in this planet? Oh No ! Kill him. Modern

societies cant tolerate this non sense of humans coming on this

planet so fast. Where is the space ? Where is housing for them ? Who

will arrange for their food, water, upkeep, maintenance? How costly

are the living now a days ? We want freedom ! We have come on this

planet, and after applying our minds we have concluded that in

modern societies such non sensical obstacles to sensual pleasures is

unwarranted ! Kill them . Stop them from coming to this world. Now

that we have come into this planet, where is the need for any other?

It is these new arrivals that has made this world so bad, and

unlivable. No , Sorry ! We cant let them enter. Kill the fetus.

Simply kill ! All problems are only because of that only ! Kill the

fetus in the womb itself. Suck the life out of it. Let us enjoy. We

never wanted the child. We just wanted to enjoy the human life. From

where this conception hascome ? Oh , dont worry kill the fetus ! We

are modern, we are not orthodox people. If we dont stop human beings

from coming to this world, then what shall be the difference between

us and animals. Animals mate only when there is season for mating.

They have to exercise restraints and disciplines- not the human

beings. Animals are animals only because they mate only when there

is a season. We are not animals. We are human beings. We shall mate

anytime we want - morning evening, day, night, January, April, June

any time, any month. What a fun ! What an obstacle to this fun is

this conception. That is spoil sport. Kill the fetus. After all we

are privileged, we are intelligent. We can invent devices to kill

them anytime. Science is pretty advanced. Vacuum cleaners. Suck the

life out of that creature. What the fetus thought we are so stupid.

Gone are those old concepts of father, mother, protector ! Non

sense. We have mind, intellect, beautiful body. This conception

is undesirable - a simple nuisance! We have thought over it, all

problems are only because of increase in population. From where the

additional income will come? From where we shall feed the children ?

No ! Not Possible!! Our leaders also say so. Entire economy is in

mess only because of this over population. Enjoy mating, but kill

fetus. Where is the need for child here ? Shall we eat ourselves or

get entangled in arranging food for them ? Are we so stupids ? Come

On ! Either you control death or we shall abort !!! We are modern

humans. Kill the fetus. No arguments. Kill ! If you want to live

peacefully - murder ! Or Control Death !

 

Raam Raam Raam !

 

Beenani S

 

------------------------------

Dear Vipra Bandhavaha, evam itare suhridaha,

We must avoid debates and discussion on which modern educated and so

called Western feminist women will have strong view. It is a pity

that they could destroy what they cannot create. See the ten per

cent of married couples who long and yearn for children and are not

blessed so. Think deeply, do not impose your views on others.

Vriddha Divakarosmi Bhoh.

 

------------------------------

Jai Hanuman

 

People often say if the population is not controlled there will be

shortage of eatables on the planet. This poverty , mal nutrition are

only because of population growth. Hence population control is the

answer for all these menaces confronting humanity. Wrong are they!!

Patently wrong ! Absolutely wrong !

 

Taat Shree ( Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj) said that kind of actions

which so called intelligentia advocate to support population

control, kind of sins which are increasingly getting legalised -

what to say eatables and food grains , one will not even get water

as a result .

 

Oh What a pity Jee ! A human being wants to live comfortably and in

order to do that, he wishes/wants to put obstacles in another human

being, in it's being born ! Is that humanity ? That is how you feel

one can bring happiness, order, harmony, pleasure in human life?

Such arguments are in reality a garbage advanced by power hungry

stupid politians to justify mis-management of existing resources and

mislead. Economics !! Sheer Nonsense !

 

Indeed the intellect can get into the spell of what is stated in BG

18:32. This is Kaliyuga Jee. This is how at the last phase of time

cycle, the humans can become. It will worsen in times to come. Ever

heard the term " cannibalism " ? Humans are heading towards the same.

 

Get liberated Jee, Realise Paramatma, O Dear Sadhaks Jee, as fast

as you can. Future will unfold else the circumstances and scenes

which you will never want to see again. Who have been left?. Those

who from Satyuga, to Treta to Dwapar till today have always set

example of BG 18:32. Most of us are in that zone only. Hurry up

Please Jee!

 

See how do they perceive - Hell with your coming on this planet, we

have come first and now we shall not allow you to come ! We will

enjoy the physical relationship, privilege, without letting you

come in Jee. Don't you know who we are Jee? Humans , Humans ! We

are humans !

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

--------------------------

------------------------------

 

Hari Om

 

I am in perfect agreement with Mahalaxmi Dasi and Mike Keenor. Of

course Mira Dass was immaculate as usual, completely relevant and

absolutely correct. Frankly, I can't say so for most of the views of

Mr Naga Narayana. If he wants as a sadhak to know as to why I feel

so , we can discuss briefly through short notes the reasons thereof.

 

Mike- you are right in most of your observations regarding birth

control pills also. That is not bad. But good is copulation timing

and male condoms. Better is " control " over the very desire and the

Best is mating only for giving birth ! ONLY WITH THAT PURPOSE !!

 

Reply of B Sathyanarainji is 100 percent right. No doubt about

that ! Mahalaxmi Dasi's response is one of the best write ups on the

subject , I have ever read.

 

Certainly Sobhanaji. Shame on the males can only be and rightfully

be attributed by females who are 1000 times more able, better and

powerful than males. All powers arise from female - Goddess

Shakti . All glories and happiness in this world arises out of

Goddess Laxmi- again a female. Mother Nature is a female.. You are

entitled to say so ! Sanatan Dharma is in favour of your entitlement

to do so ! My compliments as a sadhak .

 

Operations of males/females so that there is no conception is

extremely bad act. You get disentitled to perform many rituals and

you don't return to God and atmosphoric airs, what was received by

you - for the reasons best known to you only.

 

I have heard this from elders (don't remember if I read somewhere)

that Goddess Mahalaxmi had aborted a child in some human life. Even

after having Lord Naraina (Lord Vishnu) as her husband, she could

never become mother again. As simple as that !!

 

How a man is a man, if he has no powers to become father, has no

reproductive capacity ? Just How? How a woman is a woman if she has

no powers to become mother, has no reproductive capacity ? Just how?

 

But Mike , I really could not understand any relevance of your

reference of over population at the near by place. Really ! If you

mean to say that over population is not desirable and must be

controlled by any one , then I beg to differ with you. We can have a

deliberation on this. Divine deliberation ! Real Satsanga !! Example

setting form of satsanga !

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

----------------------------

 

I agree with you Shobhnaji, thousand percent. Shame on us to keep

treating the women folk with deep rooted disrespect.

 

To others, this is a social issue. And hence does not befit this

forum. Therefore, I desist to respond to the other queries

raised ... Mahabharata and Bhagavadgita are as useful to the society

as to a spiritual aspirant. But … that needs a different forum.

Therefore, let me be brief ...

 

To Dasiji, Vyaasji, Mike and others who have commented on the

feutus's freedom to take life … my question is regarding the freedom

of the person living. Our poor brothern in India has paid heavily on

the rape, violation and enslavement for more than a millenium thanks

to the wrongly preached spiritual values in social life. Again, the

problem is not in the great spiritual values … but, in the

preaching. Bhagavan Vyaasa warns sternly … Na buddhidhedam janayet …

never preach these values … they are only for seekers. Because,

those who do not understand the depth of concepts such as Ahimsa

(non-violence) and Shaanti (peace) would let their natural cowardice

reign their lives. It is the responsibility of a saint to

acknowledge that the world cannot be saintly. Whoever tried to

spread sainthood in the history has achieved nothing but social

fragmentation … sainthood never appeared in humanity so far.

Therefore, if at all spirituality helps, it should let the humans be

just humans first from social perspective.

 

Dasiji feels that the death is not a Godly act while birth is a

Godly act. If their exists a devil against the God, I can only pity

such appreciation of God. Good and bad are our creation in our

illusions. Just because we love birth and hate death, we cannot

project the same ignorance on God. Birth and death are both God's

gifts to us. We should treat both the same way with absolute

respect. If we cannot, at least we should not wield hypocracy to

suit our beliefs.

 

God is not their to protect anybody but has provided everything to

do so oneself. Krishna never fights ... Arjuna has to. If God " had

to " protect, he would have protected the violation of freedom of a

woman in the first place. One who suffers has all the right to

respond to one's own suffering in one's own way. Spirituality cannot

trespass its compassion to preach either way. Such judgment will be

as lopsided as of the Bramhin who tried to interfere with an eagle's

attempt to eat its food, a snake.

 

Vyasji has quoted Karna … the goodness captive in the bad … nothing

but a slave to the bad … committed to serve the bad till death. What

is the use of such goodness? In fact, more harmful to the society!

 

Again, the society should be The Bhima who pulls out the heart of

the beastly violaters enroute. Incidentally, he does not need

Krishna's intervention because Krishna's approval is inherent in all

his actions.

 

Respects.

 

Naga Narayana

 

---------------------------

Namaste

 

DAADU DUNIYA BAAWARI , FIKAR KARE GELI !

ROTI DESI RAMJEE, DOPAARA PELI !!

 

Said Sage Daaduji

 

Mad has gone this world ! Absolutely crazy. It is worrying

unnecessarily out of stupidity. God will provide meals to you before

noon time.

 

Mr Naga Narayana - Worry not ! There is one creator, preserver and

destroyer , called, Paramatma ( Ever heard this name?) who will take

care through Mother Nature about birth, death, fame, illfame,

happiness and sorrow.

 

Said Sage Vashishtha to Bharatji

 

AHO BHARAT BHAAVI PRABAL, BILAKH KAHAT MUNIRAAJ !

HAANI LAABH JEEVAN MARAN, JAS APJAS VIDHI HAATH !!

 

O Bharat ! Destiny is very powerful. Profit, Loss, Death, Birth,

Fame and Ill fame are controlled by Destiny only.

 

Stop giving reasons. Simply dont disturb the Laws of Nature . You

have no rights to do that. What if our fathers also thought in the

similar manner? How we would have been able to become humans then?

Dont we run to a doctor if urine stops ? We are that weak ! Why

should we take responsibility of Creator on our weak shoulders?

Stupidity is that- Isnt it ?

 

HAM EK KHILONE HAIN, EK AISE KHILAADI KE !

JISKO ABHI SADIYON TAK YEH KHEL RACHAANA HAI !!

 

We are toys in the hands of that player, who is yet to continue this

world for centuries and centuries.

 

Chesta Vinod

-----------------------------

Priya Sadhaks

 

Sobhanaji has indeed expressed herself naturally and therefore

powerfully. But only in writing " Shame on you all " ! On balance

there was nothing .

 

Madam ! None is bad here!! Change the vision and you shall start

seeing the ultimate good here ! Try it !

 

Why inflict any shame on any one?

 

At the lotus feet of all of you and of Paramatma

 

MM Purohit

 

 

===============================================================

 

PRIOR POSTING

My dandavats to all in this forum....

 

In regard to the concept of taking pills to prolong health being

" hypocritical " if one is against pills to stop birth......I am

shocked that one with knowledge would dare equate the two concepts.

Doesn't the Supreme Lord appear as Dhanvantari, to give knowledge of

herbs to help human beings? Where is there any reference where the

Supreme Lord would say, " yes, abort this child " ? Anyone can say

anything, but one must analyze according to scripture, if he or she

is to truly benefit the cause of humanity.

Also, I believe it is a myth that there is overpopulation. I

truly believe that mother Bhumi can expand her form, if needed, she

is alive....she is not dead matter. The problem today is

mismanagement of the resources. In the time of Prthu Maharaj,

another incarnation of the Lord mentioned in the Srimad Bhagavatm,

mother earth also withheld fruits and vegetables and grains, as there

was so little sacrifice in the human hearts taking place. On the

threat of Prthu Maharaj, she agreed to produce abundantly. Are

there those who think these stories are simply folk lore?

Again, anyone can say anything, but the laws of material nature

will act, regardless. If I say that the sun will rise in the west,

I can say it every day til I leave this world, but will it happen?

No, it will not. I cannot change the laws of nature. Killing is

sinful, attempting to prevent a soul from entering a womb using any

birth control is sinful, and reactions will come whether one

believes or not. This is the law of karma. Otherwise, if this were

not true, it would stand to reason that there is nothing wrong with

unlimited illicit sexual activity. Yes, just use birth control,

have abortions, enjoy your body all you choose...IS THERE ANYONE WHO

CAN SUPPORT THIS TYPE OF MENTALITY FROM A RELIGIOUS OR DEVOTION TO

GOD STAND-POINT? I don't believe it is possible.

Also, it may be true that the perpetrator of rape is a

rascal....but a woman cannot justify her act of murdering an unborn

child merely because a male chose to act sinfully. The two sins do

not balance each other out. Women must return to their role of

being protectors of society, of righteousness...with no " attitude "

of hatred toward the ignorance of males, otherwise the love and grace

of Laksmi will never again flow abundantly on this planet.

The " blame game " should not be for those of saintly character.

 

Respectfully submitted,

Mahalaksmmi Dasi

-------------------------------

-Shree Hari-

I found the comments by Naga Narayana and Meera Das absorbing, the

full spectrum as it were.

OK there was a program on TV here, that showed an abortion, not

simulated, the real thing, the apparatus used was a sort of vacuum

device the sucked the life from the womb.

As I watched this, I experienced something unusual, I had no

emotions, it was as if I were stone, no anger no horror, I was in the

presence of demonic evil, somehow my emotions retreated, my defenses

were up, sometimes evil can be so great it seems, that words and

reactions have no place.

What I saw, I never want to see again,.

Preventing conception, is not killing of life, there is timing of

copulation, condoms, barriers, and birth control pills; they do not

abort, I personally think that the birth control pill may have

dangers, as it interferes with normal bodily functions.

However if the pill prevents the resort to abortion, then so be it.

If a woman is raped, the fetus is not the intruder, the brute who

raped her is. Punish him by the full force of the law, not the fetus.

(I understand in some countries, it's almost impossible to be charged

with rape, and the victims can be punished, how terrible!)

 

I have personally witnessed, the stinking mire that over population,

poverty, animals and humans living in close proximity, the over

powering smell of camels, goats , and sewage, and what it does to

people.

 

So on the subject of abortion, I see strength in Meera Das point of

view, and on birth control, I think Naga Narayana, has sound

arguments.

 

With Respect and Divine Love.

 

Mike Keenor

------------------------------

What about the karma of the men who rape? All the views expressed

here do not take into account that women are human beings, have

feelings and have the right to perhaps cleanse themselves of the

sins committed by men. Abortion is the only way to cleanse such sin

committed by men, who are " protectors " and hide behind religious

views.

 

Shame on all of you.

Shobhna S. Kumar

-------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Hari Om

 

Under no circumstance, even if the circumstance is life

threatening - the sin of abortion should not be done.

Any happenning in our life is outcome of our own karma meted out by

God's laws through nature. Law of Karma is precise and accurate in

its operation.

 

Every incidence has kripa (benevolence) of God hidden in it. Every

adverse incident provides you an opportunity to get closer to God by

right conduct and right utilisation of given circumstance. The human

birth has not been given for petty comforts and worldly pleasures.

It is a challenging, sadhan ( striving for God Realisation) form of

life. The austerity resulting from given adverse circumstances is

God sent/willed as per our own prior deeds.One must take such God

sent austerities as an opportunity for spiritual advancement. One

must perceive the human life as a special form of life- not to enjoy

worldly pleasures but to happily do one's duty without caring for

one's right and another's duty. Job is already on hand, of giving

birth to the innocent child, the duty is already on hand. The

aggrieved should take it so, give birth to the child, and thereafter

she may handover the child to orphanage etc.

 

One must be " careful in " doing " , and happy in " happening "

(result) " . No circumstance can force you to commit new sins.

 

Sanatan Dharma Scriptures deal with every type of circumstance.

Similar circumstance was faced by Kunti also. Kunti was mother of

Karna conceived when she was unmarried through Sun. She gave birth

to the child and silently surrendered the child to the mother

nature. Karna went on to be a part of history forever. Karna earned

admiration of all , including from Lord Krishna. He was one of the

greatest philanthropist the Indian soil has ever produced. He

redefined the art of giving/donating/ renunciation. He was " tyaag

murti " . Karna was the eldest son of Kunti- elder than

Yuddhister/Bhim/Arjuna/Nakul/Sahdev.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

--------------------------

HELLO SIR,

Your own conscience is the best guide. follow it. In so doing see

that your action does not harm the other person. Follow the maxim "

do unto others what you expect from others " That's what the Mahatma

Gandhi said, " I look to my inner self for guidance when I am in

trouble " . So said Lord Buddha too.

Ramachander Homma

--------------------------

Dear Sadaks,

If a lady conceives, it is not her wish or effort. Many women even

after marriage do not concieve. Why? The child to be born is

predecided by the Karma of that soul. In certain cases the child

gets aborted naturally, which is no way connected with anybody or

Sin.

But to abort a child is wrong. The cause is abortion and the effect

is the lady who aborted the child, will have rebirth as lady who

will have no issues (children). This lady who aborted can even be a

tree in her next birth, where the tree does not yield fruits. The

rebirth depends on once Paapas (sins) and Puniyas (virtues).

Referance Garbopanashid.

B.Sathyanarayan

--------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

I resonate totally with the views expressed by Naga Narayanji on

this subject.

No action in itself is right or wrong without regard to

circumstances surrounding it.

An action such as abortion may be right in one set of circumstances

and wrong in another set of circumstances. In otherwords, actions

are not inherently right or wrong.

There are many examples in daily life where we can see this to be

true.

I think that right action comes to one who is steadfast on the path

of righteousness (dharma), and seeks all decisions from the Totality

of Being(THAT) and never as an individual! In such cases interest of

all parties involved in actions are duly considered by THAT. Such

actions are God taking actions through people for people.

Namaskaras........Pratap Bhatt

 

--------------------------

 

PRIOR POSTING

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

As our scriptures says - if we believe that we are the Atma (Soul,

Spirit, Individual Consciousness), and if we also believe that human

life is the rarest form of birth (1 of 8.4 million species in this

Universe), and that only in this human form of life, one can attain

freedom from all bondages, one can realize their true nature, one

can attain salvation, one can realize eternal bliss, one can develop

love of God… etc., then common sense says that what Swamiji says is

without any doubt to be accepted - i.e. we have no right to stop

the evolution of a Soul, by creating roadblocks in it's evolution

cycle. This roadblock that we place on another souls' progress, to

not allow it an opportunity for salvation, will definitely have it's

consequences and is a grave sin. Most of the times, we sin due to

desire for our own happiness, self protection, comforts, betterment,

selfish reasons, and if we look at it from that perspective, also

the reason for abortions are also mostly for the same reasons, for a

little convenience and happiness, we are destroying another life,

and not allowing it to be born as a human, a soul that could have

realized the Self / God, and attain salvation etc.

 

Swamiji has said it is briefly addressed in Gita, under demoniac

tendencies. Gita 16:9 " Prabhavantyu grakarmaanah kshayaaya

jagatohitaah. " " Not believing in the eternal soul, the demoniac

natured appear as enemies of the world, for its destruction. " Gita

16:9

Unknowingly we destroy and kill helpless lives, and are hoping the

we will be benefited. How can we be benefited? How can we attain

salvation?

" Jaan-jaanker mook, asamarth jivon ki hatyaa karte ho aur caahete ho

ki hamaaraa bhallaa ho jaaye; kaise ho jaayegaa? kalyaan kaise ho

jaayegaa ?

 

For their selfish motives, such demoniac people indulge in violence,

murder and usurpation etc., without thinking of the pain, which they

inflict upon others.

" Dharmasarvasva suno, aur sunker dhaaran kar lo. Jo aacharan apnese

pratikool ho, usko dusero ke prati mat karo. "

 

Looking at a broader more Universal perspective, who truly takes

care of the 8.4 millions species? Do we? What arrogance to think

that we alone have the right and the burden of responsibility for

that conceived fetus? In many countries, one has to wait for years

and pay a huge amount, to adopt a child. Our ego and selfishness is

causing us to not give this opportunity to another soul and to

instead sin.

 

Not only that, many women who visited Swamiji after having undergone

several abortions, found their bodies to be significantly weakened,

undergoing several irreversible health problems. (I am truly

unaware of the medical and health implications, as this is based

only on experiences / problems that women shared with Swamiji).

 

After listening to Swamiji / reading his thoughts from books for a

number of years, after listening to the way He responded to question

and answers, there was never a question that he could not answer to

one's satisfaction. He had thought about everything he shared,

deeply for a long time, before he even uttered a word or stated

something firmly. In my opinion, Swamiji and all the major

religions of the world that believe in pro-life cannot be wrong!

 

Hope this helps.

Meera Das

Ram Ram

-------------------------------

Sanity and Sanctity of Birth-Control and Abortion

 

Many religions are committed to the propaganda of the idea of anti-

abortion and anti-birth-control strongly even in the so-called

advanced societies such as West. I strongly advocate that this is an

extremely lopsided vision from both social as well as natural

persepctives. By the way, spirituality has nothing to do with it!

 

We hear a lot like " birth is God's Grace and hence we should not

intefere; any such intereference is the greed, selfishness and

arrogance of humans against God's Grace " . I agree with it completely

ONLY IF it is also appreciated in tandem that " death is also God's

Grace and hence we should not interfere with that as well " . Death is

part of the creation as much as the birth. Is it OK to exercise our

ego to interfere with THAT when we are trying all we could do to

avoid/postpone the death? Isn't it the same greed and arrogance in

action in this case as well? Are we not disgracing ourselves by not

believing God's will in our death??

 

My suggestion to the birth-promoters is, " do not take a single pill

to interfere with God's will in the deseases, aging as well as in

death. Then, you are entitled to claim that one should not

interefere with God's will. " Taking all medicinal help to promote

our survival rate and life span on one hand and rejecting the same

for birth control on the other hand is hypocracy. Such attitude is

utterly (1) anti-nature resulting in lopsided population growth of

one single species on this earth; and (2) anti-society resulting in

undue stress of life demands overwhelming the resources. As far as

death control is excercised, one should allow the birth control to

balance the act in any soceity. That is social sanity and that is

natural sanctity.

 

Again, promoting one's material life on this earth is not at all the

agenda of Bhagavad Gita. The agenda is to cleanse the life we have

already taken … to learn how to live it well and how to leave it as

well. That does not remove any of our social responsibilities and

natural obligations. One can get liberated from the social

responsibilities by accepting the nature – birth and death alike. On

the other hand, one cannot get liberated from the natural

obligations till one lives.

 

Also, abusing the spiritual texts for social promotion is incorrect

and can lead to become frantically religious and religiously

fanatic. Bhagavaan Vyaasa advocates to never preach spirituality to

one who cannot appreciate it for one with half-baked knowledge will

lead to natural catastrophies such as population explosion which

eventually culminates in social catastrophies such as wars.

 

Na buddhibhedam janayet agnyaanaam karmasanginaam |

Joshayet sarva karmaani vidvaanyuktassamaacharan ||

 

For social issues such as abortion one should adapt common sense and

social awareness that reflects the circumstantial reality. If the

woman is forced to bear a feutus against her will, she has all the

rights to terminate the same. I request the same preachers to catch

hold of the male beasts that cause such distress in the fisrt place

and terminate them instead. Nobody has any right to interfere in

this matter when one cannot share the burden of the socio-economical

implications let alone the physio-psychological distress imposed

upon the victim. Why should an innocent woman suffer because of a

beastly male? Society should be The Bhima who pulls out the heart of

such beasts enroute. Incidentally, he does not need Krishna's

intervention because Krishna's approval is inherent in all his

actions.

 

Respects.

 

Naga Narayana

------------------------------

Dear Sir ,

 

You mentioned the shloka:

" Yat paapam brahmahattyaa dvigunam garbhapaatane; Praayashchitam ne

tasyaasti tatsyaasyaago vidhiyate " (Parasharsmriti 4:20).

 

Please let me know if you know any more details about this Shloka.

 

I am planning to put up boards with slogan in the villages with this

verse picture of Lord Krishna and Radha and duly translated thus :

 

BRUNE HATYA JO KARE HOGA MAHAAPAP

VIDHATA KA USSKO LAGEGA BHANKAR SHRAAP.

 

Any idea of better slogan? or any other thoughts on this?

 

Prem Khullar

-------------------------------

 

PRIOR POSTING

Hare Krishna

 

Answer to Question 1

 

Prashantji, I am pasting the answer of your question from Swamiji's

book " Sadhan-Sudha-Sindhu " page 960.

 

Q. If it becomes compulsory for woman to abort the baby due to an

infection, then what should she do?

 

A. She will definitely incur the sin of abortion. For protecting

woman people abort the baby but this should not be done. What has to

happen will indeed happen. If the woman has to die then even after

abortion she will die. If she is destined to live longer then she

will not die even if she chooses not to abort. Whatever may be the

cause of death, it will only arrive when the time is up. So abortion

should never be done.

 

Q. Should abortion be carried out in case an unmarried woman becomes

pregnant?

 

A. That boy and girl should marry who had pre-marital sex. If the

marriage is not possible then also abortion should not be done. The

girl should nurture that child and give him/her to an orphanage or

give it to someone who wants to adopt a child.

 

If a woman is raped then the rapist will incur terrible sin. If the

woman has derived pleasure from that then she will also incur sin.

All sins emanate from sensual desire. So the amount of sin will be

in direct proportion with the pleasure derived by that woman. If the

woman did not take any pleasure then she will not incur sin.

 

If an unmarried woman is pregnant then her parents will also incur

sin for their carelessness. It is a must for parents that they take

utmost care of their daughter and not give her excessive

independence.

 

Q. If society comes to know about it then she will become infamous

and no one will marry her?

 

A. After committing sin one has to bear defamation. Abortion,

suicide and running from home. In comparison to these three sins,

it's better to bear the defamation. If no one is willing to marry

her then she should reside in her father's house and spend her life

in worshipping God. This will be penance for her which will destroy

her sins.

 

Q. If a married woman is raped and she becomes pregnant then what

should be done?

 

A. It is better for her to be quiet. If husband comes to know about

it then he should also remain quiet. The couple's slience is best

for them. In reality, one should always be attentive from the

beginning so that such kind of situations do not arise. My

suggestion is not for abortion because it is an ultimate sin

(MahaPaap).

 

Answer to Question 2

 

Shri Khullarji, you are indeed doing great social service by

rescuing women from committing sins like abortion etc. This society

needs people like you.

 

Gita doesn't specifically mention about abortion. It strikes the

root of sin i.e. desire and God has spoken at length on it. Read

Gita (3-36, 37 and 16-21, 23, 24)

 

Premji, Gitapress has published 2 books.

 

Matrishakti Ka Ghor Apman (Code 420)

Desh Ki Vartaman Dash Aur Uska Parinam (Code 617)

Check the details at www.gitapress.org. You can use these 2 books

for your purpose.

 

These 2 books are also included in a 1000 page book Sadhan-Sudha-

Sindhu (Code 465). It is a compilation of more than 40 books of

Swamiji's teachings.

 

Thanks,

 

Hare Krishna

Varun P. Paprunia

-------------------------------

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

From Gita Talk Moderator:

 

" Sadhan, Sudha, Sindhu " in Hindi by Swami Ramsukhdasji, can be

viewed online for free at:

 

http://www.swamiramsukhdasji.org/swamijibooks/pustak/pustak1/html/sad

hansudhasindhu/main.html

Ram Ram

 

-------------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, This passage has moved me deeply. One should still

think about the fact that abortion is wrong. Firstly when a woman or

a man, yes a man can be raped by a woman for his seed. QUESTION 1:

If raped, the fact is the baby formed is not at fault. One does not

have the right to kill a child just because of that fact.

What would be such a case when rape occurs and the child is aborted?

your comments please. Prashanth

---------------------

Dear Sir I read the SADAK dt 26 september 2008 regularly . I read

the following verse in your letter dated 27/09/08.

QUESTION 2: In the Paaraashersmriti - " Yat paapam brahmahattyaa

dvigunam garbhapaatane; Praayashchitam ne tasyaasti tatsyaasyaago

vidhiyate " Can you correctly guide me as to where do I find this

writing below, also does Gita make any reference to this? I wish to

quote it in my meetings in the villages against the female feticide.

(aborting female fetus)

thanks, Kindly do clarify and oblige,

prem khullar

-------------------------------

ADDITIONAL QUERY:

 

Do any of you have any more details on this shloka from Paaraasher

Smriti - " Yat paapam brahmahattyaa dvigunam garbhapaatane;

Praayashchitam ne tasyaasti tatsyaasyaago vidhiyate " . Kindly let me

know any other scriptures where abortion is mentioned as sinful.

Gita shloka does not clearly point to abortion per se. The source

is important, therefore do provide it, along with the quote /

shloka.

 

I am in process of creating slogans for big display boards for

villages and cities of Haryana where female feticide is spreading

like wild fire. Please suggest good slogan ! Please help

immediately.

Sincerely - Prem Khullar.

--------------------------------

 

:Shree Hari:

Ram Ram

 

26th September, 2008, Friday

Ashwin Krishna Dvaadashi, Vikram Samvat 2065, Shukravar

 

" Mana jaane sab baat, jaan boojh avaguna kare

kyon chaahat kusalaat, ker deepak koonye pade. "

 

At present times such terrible and fearsome sins are taking place,

that simply by listening, one's hair stands on ends, eyes become

filled with tears, and heart is deeply moved ! Ram Ram Ram, what

terrible unjustice, what fearsome sins are taking place, but your

attention is not going there at all ! Human body is said to be the

rarest of all all forms of life -

" Durlabho maanushyo deho dehinaam shunabhangurah " (Srimad Bhagavat

11:2:29)

" Labdhvaa sudurlabhmidam bahusambhvaante,

maanushyamarthdamnityampeeh dheerah " (Srimad Bhagavat 11:9:29)

" bade bhaag maanushya tanu paava. Sur durlabh sab granthnhi

gaava. " (Manas 7:43:7)

 

Such a rare human body, is being destroyed at the very beginning.

It is being cut up along with the jeev, and this is such a great

offense, it is such injustice, it is a terrible sin! My mind feels

immense pain, it is feeling great distress, but what to do! The

human body by which one can realize God, to not allow that human

body to even be born, and to destroy it, it is the ultimate sin !

To not allow some soul the opportunity to receive a human body, to

not allow that human body to even be born, to take medication from

the beginning and destroy it, through abortion or any other means.

One has stooped so low - not only to think about going to hell

themselves, but at the same time not even allowing another soul the

opportunity for upliftment, for benediction ! Now what is one to

do? Who to share this with? And who will listen to my point? Is

there no one listening ?

 

For ascetics it has been written in the scriptures to not travel

much during " Chaturmaas " (four months in a year during the rains).

Because during these month, due to the rains, every seed grows into

a sappling, which later grows into a tree. By extensive traveling,

walking, these seedlings come under the feet and are destroyed.

Therefore during this four month period, the ascetics do not walk

and roam around much, so that unknowingly no violence is done to any

life form. In Bhagavat it has been said, that if you wish to gain

victory over violence, then reduce the movement of the body -

" hinsaa kaayaadhyaneehayaa. " (Bhagavat 7:15:23). When there is

so much thought put into non-violence around immovable things, then

what to speak on the subject of movable beings? But nowadays, the

best of all movable life forms, better than even the devatas, the

human body, is being contemplated for destruction, what a state of

affairs we are in ! (to be continued)

 

From " Saadhan, Sudhaa, Sindhu " pg 946 in Hindi by Swami Ramsukhdasji

 

For full online discourses in Hindi, please visit Swami

Ramsukhdasji's website. http://www.swamiramsukhdasji.org

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QUESTION 1: If raped, the fact is the baby formed is not at fault.

One does not have the right to kill a child just because of that

fact. What would be such a case when rape occurs and the child is

aborted?

QUESTION 2: Paaraashersmriti - " Yat paapam brahmahattyaa

dvigunam garbhapaatane; Praayashchitam ne tasyaasti tatsyaasyaago

vidhiyate " – where to find this reference?

QUESTION 3: Does Gita make any reference to abortion?

QUESTION 4: Please provide helpful slogans for Bill-boards.

QUESTION 5: Please also elaborate on sins accumulated by males

responsible for the rape?

 

--------------------------------

 

NEW POSTING

 

Hari Om

 

Meenakshiji !

 

You said :

 

When a mother chooses to abort her baby, she adds to her own karma

or she could be erasing the karma of the unborn fetus.

 

I say:

 

Who is she to erase karma of the Fetus ? Certainly and only she

adds to her own karma ! Is the fetus at any point of time unborn ,

once conception has taken place?

 

You said:

 

Just reflect

on the story of Ganga and the 8 Vasus in the Mahabharatha. She

drowns out all the 7 and the last one becomes Devavrath/ Bheeshma.

There is an Upa katha regarding the Vasus not wanting to be bound to

human life and sorry about being cursed to take human birth.

 

I say:

 

Why did not she kill them in the womb itself ? Think and come back !

What difference would it have made to 7 Vasus who did not want human

birth had they been aborted or they were given birth and handed over

to nature ? What difference would it have made to Mom- if no

difference why she took the trouble of carrying them for 9 months ?

Why the desire of 7 Vasus were not granted by Mother Nature? Why

were they allowed to sleep in the womb for 9 months?

 

You say:

 

Likewise the " killing " of the 6 children prior to Krishna by Kamsa-

there, he takes the karma of the terrible murders of newborn infants.

 

I say:

 

Why do you think a person as cruel as Kansa did not kill or ensure

abortion of them while the children were in the womb itself ? Think

and come back ! Are we not worse than him if we kill them in the

womb itself ?

 

You said:

 

As per the shastras there are 3 possible times when the atma enters

the foetus -

at the moment of conception, during pregnancy or at birth.

 

I say

 

Kindly quote from where you derived this conclusion ! Atma cannot

enter at 3 different times ! It enters once and leaves once ! Life

gets transferred the moment ovum meets sperm and enters the womb-

that is called conception ! Check with any scientist and check the

progression of foetus thereafter. You may even get week by week

account of growth there after in scientific literature ! Check

please !!

 

You say:

 

So, it depends entirely on the mother what she wishes to do with the

fetus.

 

I say:

 

Where did you read that a mother can also destroy ? What is the role

of mother to preserve or destroy ? Do any human laws permit a

Doctor to kill also, because he has power to save life? In which

species of life out of 8.4 million species prevalent on this planet,

you found a mother killing her own children ? Name them !

I need not say that each specie preserves them, nurtures them.

 

You said:

 

What is a 'greater " karma path - abortion or having to live a life

with the born child? This is something that can be answered only by

the mother and the " time " she finds herself in.

 

I say:

 

Who told you she has both the powers? If she is that powerful, why

she should not decide to save her own child? Did not our Moms decide

so ? If it is her sole prorogative, what is wrong - to murder or to

preserve ?

Does theory of " karma " ( in other words " duty " ) have alternatives

available ? If yes then whether distinction of " good " or " bad " can

be avoided? If no , then is the karma of murder good ? If yes, then

whether preserving the child is a bad karma ? If yes, then what is

mother ? A killer/murderer or a sustainer/preserver? In which

species of life, can you find a killer mother?

 

You say:

 

I do not believe we

can sit at our keyboards and decide for her. And interestingly,

based on the " mind set " of the mother at that particular time,

she can choose either wise.

 

I say:

 

What if her mind is driven by selfishness or deceit or sin or anger

or greed or desire or passion or ignorance or stupidity or comfort

or illusion ? Is mind governor of her ? What about " self " ? What

about " conscience " ? What about duty? What about justice? Is she

God ? If she is God why can't she change the very " time " or

circumstances ? Does not every choice available to any one

involve " karma " ? Good or bad !!

 

Now come on, Dear Sister ! Be bold and respond ! There is nothing

wrong in arguing in good spirit on this topic confronting the

humanity at large ! It is a healthy argument ! A pious debate !

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

------------------------------

 

I am disappointed that many people have labeled certain utterances

that came through me as " anti-Ramsukhdasji " and " anti-life " . Many

questions have been raised against them with agitation …

 

First of all, I do not see any disagreement. Even so, I do not think

a disagreement could disrespect anybody, particularly a saint like

Ramsukhdasji! Moreover, a genuine disagreement is the true respect

one can ever show to anybody! On the other hand, how can there be

any difference of opinion in absolute genuinity?! I don't think so.

 

Second, that I have no respect for the sacred mother-hood. I am very

disappointed with such unilateral judgments. In my understanding,

those words came through me only due to the deeprooted respect

toward motherhood. Moreover, due to an ABSOLUTE respect to a mother,

more than her motherhood.

 

FOR ME, A MOTHER IS MUCH HIGHER THAN HER ROLE, MOTHERHOOD.

 

I re-iterate my conviction. My mother is much more important than

her motherhood to me. She has all the authority – not just 100%, but

infinite% – over my life. If she chose to terminate me at any stage,

I have nothing to complain about.

 

I WILL NOT JUDGE MY MOTHER FOR ANY REASON.

 

I WILL NOT PREACH MY MOTHER FOR ANY REASON.

 

I WILL NOT JUDGE OR PREACH ANY POTENTIAL MOTHER FOR ANY REASON.

 

I DO NOT WANT TO INTERFERE WITH ANY MOTHER'S CHOICE, WHATSOEVER IT

MAY BE.

 

IT IS MY MOTHERS CALL … IT IS MOTHER NATURE'S CALL … WHEN TO TAKE ME

BACK.

 

I AM NOBODY TO CRITICIZE HER. ANY ATTEMPT TO QUESTION HER EITHER WAY

IS THE DEEPROOTED DISRESPECT WE HAVE DEVELOPED THANKS TO OUR

INTELLIGENT IGNORANCE :(.

 

I have nothing against Anti-Abortion. If anybody, other than a

mother takes a decision of aborting any child, I agree with all of

you 100%. Of course, it is the most heinous act one can imagine.

 

But, I have everything against any suggestion that violates a

mother's authority over her child. If she wants to keep it … it is

her choice. If she does not want to … it is her choice. Either way,

the mother – be it human or nature – is as respectable as ever.

 

For the first time, I am agitated with this group.

 

What I read beneath all these emotional outbursts is, … After all, a

woman is born to bear child no matter what … After all Mother Earth

is born only to support us no matter what … Lord Vishnu will come

down to order them to do their duty if they do not listen to us …

after all, what is the purpose of us being His bhaktas here?!

 

I feel as if the group is attempting to throw filth on a mother,

daring to label a mother as a sinner in a unilateral insistance

based on a mere opinion, belief, superstition! Now, I am angry!!

Because, I do not see any difference between ignorant people stoning

an unfortunate mother and this group!!!

 

PLEASE DO NOT BOTHER ME WITH YOUR UNILATERAL JUDGMENTS ON THIS

MATTER. IF YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT I UNDERSTAND, GOOD FOR YOU.

OTHERWISE, DROP MY OPNINIONS. I DO NOT WORRY WHETHER YOU TAKE IT OR

NOT. SERIOUSLY.

 

PS: I strongly feel that, certain group here is getting carried away

in certain notions and beliefs. It is very unfortunate that this

group is so intolerant to any suggestions – which may have an

apparent tone of difference from an accepted norm – to an extent of

fanatism. Unless one could respect a difference of opinion, one

cannot progress in spirituality – again, that is my understanding. I

hope, the group opens back to freedom of expression, IN THE REVERED

TRADITION OF THIS FORUM, that is fundamental for removal of one's

deep rooted ignorance. Again, that is just my opinion. Please leave

an opinion where it belongs to.

 

Thank You.

 

Naga Narayana

 

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

Nagaji, I don't believe the intent is to tag anyone as " anti-

Ramsukhdasji " and " anti-life " . Please be assured of that.

 

Gita Talk Moderator

Ram Ram

-

 

Jai Hanuman

 

Bharati Bahen ! Do you agree that - since time immemorial- many or

rather uncountable sisters might have, after being gone through the

agony of male cruelty, given birth also to the children and must

have faced the same cruel world, relatives, societies ? Same cold

heartedness ! Do you agree ? Who preserved them? Who took care of

them? Did not they live still and did not many of those children

reached to higher platforms than what they started with ? What was

wrong with those moms? Were they not worshippable? We as females-

what kind of compromises we don't make? Why we should bother so much

about the petty societies, relatives, some one in the world holding

our hands, accepting us, recognising us ? Are they ours when we

don't incur sins or when even we are whole heartedly theirs? Are

they ours when they have accepted us and held our hands? No ! No!

Dear Sister!

 

Duty never changes, Dear Sister ! Our role never changes! What have

we got to do with society ? We are answerable to God - Daddy the

great and to our conscience only.

 

One should believe in Daddy the Great only. After Him, one should

believe in doing duty of oneself ONLY. What kind of support we can

expect from this world - defined as " dukhalayam " ? What difference

such support can make if Daddy is not in favour? What is the need of

this world if Daddy is with us ?

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

--------------------------------

Dear Divine Atmans

 

Everything in this world is God's creativity and the facilities

which he has given us is for our comfort. Misuse of God's belongings

is the biggest crime which a human being does. As asked in the

questions about abortion. Every creature in the world comes with the

consent of God and he leaves the world only after his (god's)

permission. He has all our account of past karmas, he gives us all

possible changes to improve our mistake and surrender ourselves

completely in his feet.

 

No mother has right to abort her child, because it is the god's gift

for her which she should accept happily. As per the question of rape

a modern women has completely forgetten that she is a women she

started competing with men rape is the result of western culture

which today's youth have adopted with utmost pride.If a women starts

being a real Indian women and start living her life like typical

indian greatwomens like jhansi rani ,sita maiya, panchali they can

rigthly fight with the dangerous western culture which is slowly

destroying our Indian identity and our traditional and cultural

values. British left india but while leaving India they had strong

desire to destroy our powerful culture and traditions. British are

still doing that so it is time for we Indians to wake up and help

the great Yogic gurus like swami Ramdevji in their motto.We must

wake up and come forward to help these religious saints in their

motto.India is a land of devotion, peace,unity and oneness and our

saints are attempting each and every minute to save our land from

dangerous western attacks in the form of the wrong ideas they are

insisting in our peopls mind throug media and many other means.We

should be careful enough to differentiate between good and bad of

our county.

 

Jai Hind

Rakshita Mehra

------------------------------

 

Jai Shree Krishna!

I give below my honest thoughts; I will love to be corrected by a

vedic scholar, who is both shrothriya and brhmanishta (knowledgeable

and practitioner of teachings).

Ans to qn 1: When a rape occurs, the female is a victim and not an

intending kartha. Not being a kartha (Doer) she need be also a

bhoktha (Enjoyer). So no sin should accrue to her, by aborting. In

my opinion the intention behind a sin is important consideration.

Ans to qn 2: No clue. Perhaps wickipaedia could help.

Ans to qn 3: Not to my knowledge. My knowledge may be incomplete.

Ans to qn 4: Sex is a divine act, performed to cooperate and perform

our part in God's plan of creation; Offending a woman's modesty is a

heinous crime, which attracts karmic punishment.

Ans to qn 5: Rape is a gratification of the animal instinct of

passion, without exercise of human gift of rational thinking. Woman

is a sense object and the sense that is displayed by the rapist is

Kama. For the sins accumulated by males due to this kama, refer to

Bhagavad Gita III - 36 & 37 and II -62 & 63.

My regards. Prof Ramanujam.

 

 

--------------------------------

Hari Om

 

This refers to the question of Dr Rampersad as to who comes forward

to help the mother after we encourage her not to abort?.

 

Doctor ! Who feeds every creature every day ? Who sustains this

world? Who made males, females, this creation, Oceans, Sun, Moon,

Stars, Air, Water, Fire, Space, Bodies, Food , Minerals ? Do you or

me or the mother in question or the child or some one else ? Who

made us as humans ? Why ? How ?

 

Doctor ! Who decided that whether you should be a male or a female ?

Black or white? Born in a hut or in a palace? Born where in this

world ? Living for 50 years or 100 years or 100 hours or 100 months?

Did you , me or our parents or some body/thing else ?

 

Doctor ! I dunno as to your age and experience , but tell me as a

sadhak as to what is our role in this unique creation ? What are our

direct experiences ?

 

If you feel that " I am the doer " - then who preserves an absolute

orphan who becomes orphan , say from day 1? ( Is it not possible/

practical ?) Who arranged milk in our Mom's person ? Who will take

care of us , when we are absolutely incapable of doing any effort of

our own , say in our old age or say when we are very sick ? Who

circulates blood constantly in your vessels ? Who is responsible for

regular or irregular heart beats? Who made immunity systems in the

body ? Can we replicate such creation?

 

Think over these inputs. Think as to what is God , what is Destiny ,

what is Self and why that is . Just think a fresh. Please come

back ! That you should once we have entered Divine Satsanga !!

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

------------------------------

Interesting arguments. Here are mine to add to the bandwagon!

 

When we see from the dharma-karma cycle, all these 'events " of birth

and death are but mere waves in the ocean of consciousness. Given

that, attaching such opinions to either is interesting in itself.

 

When a mother chooses to abort her baby, she adds to her own karma

or she could be erasing the karma of the unborn fetus. Just reflect

on the story of Ganga and the 8 Vasus in the Mahabharatha. She

drowns out all the 7 and the last one becomes Devavrath/ Bheeshma.

There is an Upa katha regarding the Vasus not wanting to be bound to

human life and sorry about being cursed to take human birth.

Likewise the " killing " of the 6 children prior to Krishna by Kamsa-

there, he takes the karma of the terrible murders of newborn infants.

 

As per the shastras there are 3 possible times when the atma enters

the foetus - at the moment of conception, during pregnancy or at

birth. So, it depends entirely on the mother what she wishes to do

with the fetus.

What is a 'greater " karma path - abortion or having to live a life

with the born child? This is something that can be answered only by

the mother and the " time " she finds herself in. I do not believe we

can sit at our keyboards and decide for her. And interestingly,

based on the " mind set " of the mother at that particular time,

she can choose either wise.

 

Cheers,

Meenakshi Srinivasan

------------------------------

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

The extreme rarity of human birth and the only birth where

Salvation / Liberation / God or Self Realization are possible, on

having attained this rarest form of birth, instantly being denied

that right for realization / salvation, clearly --- there was

nothing more worse, in Swamiji's eyes than abortion (under any

circumstance). One has no control over what happens (e.g rape), but

certainly one has control over one's actions and choices (finding

workable alternatives without killing/aborting).

 

Most important of all, Swamiji, rarely expressed his own views. All

his teachings came directly from the scriptures, and he is only

sharing what the scriptures are stating. All other perspectives

would become secondary such as - society/personal/economical/family

etc. Everything else in this world is coming and going and will

work out in due time. It always does !

 

Meera Das

Ram Ram

 

------------------------------

 

I live in England and have a teenage daughter. I would be

interested in the english translation of Swamiji's

article " Abortion - Worst of All Sins. "

 

Thank you, the group has shed light on many things that were unknown

to me. Very informative ! Amita Nagarani

------------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

As I understand, this platform is concerned with understanding God,

Truth, and Realizing in our life so we can be guided in all

situations of life, one of which could be the issue discussed here-

Abortion. The way I see is that each time one faces this(or any)

issue, it is new when it happens and for all who are apparantly

involved in situation, even though this one is an age-old problem

having so many precedences. Therefore, one set of solution may not

be applicable in all cases.

The main question starts with: " If raped,...... " , setting a

speculative tone and expecting a general right or wrong answer.

If one lives a life of righteousness, following one's dharmas,

acting selflessly, with unbroken faith in Truth, that which is

Eternal and not transient, realizing him/her to be That, then the

decision to act in such situation would come from THAT Impersonal,

and not from " person " one assumes one to be but is not! That

decision will be right for that time coming from Truth itself, not

from " person " . The great example among many, is the just war of

Mahabharata in which killing even one's own loved ones are

justified. The whole issue turns out to be that of living a life of

Dharma, and Realization of who " we are " so that we can answer such

social dilemnas effectively.

Krishnaji allowed diplomatic ways in the war against Kauravas to

defeat the powerful among them which would have been sinful acts

including killings in some other set of circumstances.

I am not for or against as such but am for living righteously in

NOW, realizing my true nature, and be guided in the moment when

faced with such choices.

Besides, when God, the Supreme Intelligence sustains/guides all of

us, He/She does it only through people by manifesting through them

to serve greater good. There is nothing else but God says the

Sruti! " I " am not God as a person, but all of us together as one

Whole Consciousness, insentient included, are indeed God! Such

seeming persons are Saints and Sages and other wise people living

amongst us right now. So to abort or not is also Her/his decision

in the guise of people for or against.

Why don't we follow guidelines set by moderators and be a bit more

sensitive to those responses that may be against our own? This is

the real test of our own spiritual maturity too!

Nmaskaras....Pratap Bhatt

 

------------------------------

PREVIOUS POSTING

My dandavats to all.....

I am praying that I may not offend anyone in this forum....but I

am forced by my committment to truth to say what I understand to be

such.,Is the solution for women who are not taken care of, who are

not protected by either father, husband, or son and thereby raped,

to go and murder their child? The problem begins with the

government taking reponsibility for the citizens. If the leaders of

society would impose proper punishment to the rapist, then men would

think very carefully about putting their hands on a woman they had

no business touching.

 

Dr. Rampersad has stated..... " Who comes forward to help the woman

bring up this child, after we encourage her to have this child? If

she wants the child, fine, if she does not want the child, then that

is also fine. "

 

I personally do not think that aborting a child will ever truly

make anyone, especially the mother, feel " fine " . If the scenario is

that she doesn't want the child, is it possible that through

discussion with older, more mature women, she can develop a sense of

acceptance, a feeling of love, regardless if the circumstances are

painful. That soul is there, taking shelter of you, dear woman,

will you kill someone who has taken shelter of you? This would seem

to me to be a ghastly, unforgiveable concept....a soul comes to

another soul, under whatever circumstances, the soul (baby) has

come....it is totally dependant for food, nourishment, peaceful

environment, whatever it is given, it is dependent.....and the host

shall determine, " this guest is uninvited....I will kill it so I

don't have to be troubled " . There is absolutely no reason not to

think of the unborn baby as a guest.....he or she is a soul who has

come to stay in another's house (body).

 

The deeper problem in society is that families are not staying

together, elders are not loved and respected, cared for patiently by

the children whom they raised. The caring for elderly people

instills patience and love in younger generation....without this

patience and loving mood, how will young ladies develop as mothers

themselves? But finding surrogate mothers, fathers, etc. is not

wrong. I left home at 14 to live in a Krishna temple....hence I

have had to constantly examine and search for loving relationships

to help me understand my role in society, and how to learn proper

interaction.

 

Murderering an unborn guest who has entered our womb will never

make any woman " fine " . It will only harden the heart, and then once

the action is done, it is as if one had smashed a precious work of

art.....indeed, the most precious. It cannot be picked up and glued

back together after being destroyed. To suggest such a thing, I

feel, indicates a lack of understanding of the fact that when a

young girl or woman is bewildered, she needs support to love, to

care, to be brave, to pray to the Lord and to the Divine Mother to

give her the stability to nurture, when perhaps she never had much

herself. Because to do anything else would deprive her of the sense

of motherhood, the growing within herself of the qualities of a

beautiful, loving, caring, sensitive and fulfilled being. To guide

anyone to abort a child is truly not thinking of the future

developement or conscious of the mother, for once the act is done,

then there is so much other chaos, which cannot ever be erased. And

none of this is known to the poor girl who is being told to

abort....she doesn't realize that " if I had known how I felt

afterward, I would never have done it " .

 

If society does or does not come forth to help a woman, still

this does not justify murdering a guest. We all must accept our

karma, and pray to not incur more.....but let us also try to give

strength and support to help others be more loving....then little by

little, the karma of mother Bhumi's miserable condition may change.

She is a mother, she is supporting us.....with a grateful heart, let

us follow her example of giving, not taking, life.

 

With deepest concern and love, Mahalaksmi Dasi

 

-------------------------------

Namasthe all, regarding the question : QUESTION 1: If raped, the

fact is the baby formed is not at fault.

One does not have the right to kill a child just because of that

fact. What would be such a case when rape occurs and the child is

aborted?

 

I guess, some of the sadhaks have replied their opinions here. My

humble opinion is: Read and listen whatever has been said but one

needs to use one's own judgement in making these decisions. As one

of the sadhaks has said: what would you do if you are in the

position of that woman ?

 

Just a thought :

If you are insisting that the woman who has been raped need to have

a child, think about this: Would you purposely and knowingly help a

woman who has been victimised by rape and make your children play

with her children and make sure that you support her with whatever

you can. Do not worry of whether she should abort or not but

instead, try to focus on helping the child already born of rape

knowingly. By seeing your actions, other women will try to see that

they need not abort. Also, if you are a man, if one is not married

and he thinks that a woman who is raped should not abort the kid,

then let him marry that woman and become the father of the unborn

kid.

 

Talking and advising is easy. Standing firm with what we talk is

very difficult. also, if you a woman and think that the woman should

keep the unborn kid, support the other woman who is raped with

raising of her kid ? Let there be no expection when helping the

mother raise her kid. (having no expection for any of your actions

is Karma yoga).. Let your actions say the message and not your words.

 

Regards,

Bharathi

-------------------------------

 

Dear Sadaks,

 

Killing a child in womb or the lady commiting suicide is Brahmahatya

Dosh. One does not have rights to kill (himself or other). By doing

so the soul hangs in space suffers lot until it`s original date of

death. Every action done for the needs of the self comes under

Prarabdha Karma which one cannot escape the reaction. Such a woman,

will be reborn as woman, and will not be able to concieve a child,

experiencing untold misery and unhappiness due to longing mind for a

child.

 

King Dasaratha while hunting accidently and unknowingly shot arrow

at a boy which led to curse of separation from Sri Rama. Bhagavan

Shiva had committed Brahmahatya dosam, and for that had to beg with

bowl until Mahalakshmi filled the bowl. Bhagavan Vishnu took the

form of a king to make a queen (Maha Pathni) believe HIM to be her

husband. Bagavan never even went near her thereafter. But having

taken that form a curse came that Bagavan should become stone. That

is Salagrama. In all these cases it was for loka Kalyan

(upliftment/salvation/liberation of others). Arjuna was in Indra Lok

when Menaka/Urvasi invited Him for pleasures. In indra lok such acts

of engaging with differant persons not a sin. But Arjuna was cursed

for refusing, with being a Bedi (Neither Woman, Nor Man). This

disguise " bedi " was useful during the year of hiding in forest.

Sastras said that killing a person to save a village, dstroying a

village, to save a large town, are not sin. Any act that benefits

(leads to salvation) for more people (Lok Kalyan) is what must be

done.

 

B.Sathyanarayan

 

-------------------------------

Jai Hanuman

 

Very Good ,Doc Bhaiyya? Great !!

 

By the way, what according to you, Brother, was the practical

teaching of Lord Krishna to Arjuna in " aapadharma " which was

sound/appropriate enough for you to conclude that for the same or

similar reasons " the normal laws of morals or ethics can not be

established blindly- in case of rape / injustice " ? Please

enlighten, Jee !

 

What is " aapad " (emergent) according to you? What is " dharma "

according to you? What according to you are normal laws of morals

and ethics, Jee ? How they are so, Jee ? Why they are so, Jee? Who

made them so, Jee ? Are they so, Bhaiyya ?

 

What were the reasons according to you which made Arjuna to deviate

from what you call to be " normal moral/ethical laws " , Dear Brother?.

Did he really deviate from them? How did he deviate ? Why did he ?

Why he could not have conducted otherwise ?

 

This is a divine forum of sadhaks, Bhaiyya Jee !! Feel free to state

the voice of your " self " or " mind " or " ego " or " intellect "

or " conscience " or " body " or of " friends " or of " hearsay " ! Whatever

and however you prefer to respond !. Go ahead , Kindly - Jee ! But

respond for sure ! There are not many questions , if you think ?

Certainly not as many as are interrogation marks in this very

response of mine !

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

--------------------------------

Salutations to all in this Forum

 

Any controls on creation are direct interventions in the role of

God. It may result (or rather it has resulted/ does result always)

in calamities. Life when you look back and see, appears to all of us

as dream or non-existent. Humans are different species altogether.

They have to face the life as it comes. They should not run like

dogs for mere sensual pleasures. A female is much higher than males,

and advicing her that abortion is justifiable (in any circumstance

whatsoever) is a crime in itself. Women create and nurture the men.

Women are mothers and mothers are needed. What is there in the world

if there is no mother ? Imagine, the state of a motherless world !!

Just imagine !

 

Luca Brasi

--------------------------------

 

PRIOR POSTING

 

Ragarding Hari Deo's comments, religion is Duty! Duty is

religion ! Where is the distinction between the two? Does " Duty "

have no role when an innocent helpless one is murdered ruthlessly?

Who has entitled us to control Creation? As one sadhak stated, are

we even capable of doing anything if we cannot pass urine? Surely we

have to seek the help of a doctor. What is then our power? Ever

checked with child-less couples about their state (which includes

10% of the world population, and on the rise). How much more do we

want to contribute to this rise? Why?

 

Lallubhai C

--------------------------

Who comes forward to help the woman bring up this child, after we

encourage her to have this child? If she wants the child, fine, if

she does not want the child, then that is also fine.

 

It is a woman's right to determine what she should do with her body.

Particularly in case of rape, and life and death or any other

justifiable situations.

 

Bhagwan Krishna taught Arjuna how to be practical in the face of

appaddharma. This is also a case of special circumstances and the

normal laws of morality and ethics cannot be applied blindly.

 

Dr. Rampersad

--------------------------

Namaste to sadhaks

 

Mr Naga - if your observations are accepted by a confused,

dis-illusioned, yet innocent person, then what kind chaos can result

in her and in society at large? Was there any consideration given

to women being viewed as mere cheap objects of pleasures for men ?

Is this advocating for them? Or is it insulting them and

motherhood. The way I read into the advice that is being offered –

One should kill the child because when he comes out of womb there

will be no loving embrace of father. Or kill the child because some

one else sinned against the woman. X commits a sin against Y, then

by what kind of logic can justify Y doing a more brutal act, an

ultimate sin (abortion) against Z? What exactly is being

communicated? Why is it being said ? Who are you saying it to? How

are you saying it? In this forum all are sadhaks are people who are

drawn towards God, towards duty, towards the ultimate bliss and

freedom. Kindly re-think your message.

 

No ! Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj can never say a wrong word. What a

mother will not do to protect an unborn child ! SHE WILL GO TO ANY

LENGTH FOR PROTECTING AN UNBORN CHILD! That is mother!!

 

I join hands in support of divine work of Prem Khullar. I totally

agree with various sadhaks in support of unborn child .

 

Bandook Singh

--------------------------

Jai Chandi Maata

 

Mr Hari Shanker Deo - your comment about - bringing religion in

matters regarding abortion needs to be reconsidered /elaborated

by you. Can you tell as to how you arrived at the conclusion that if

religion is brought in this ghastly human conduct, then each lady

would deliver 20 children? Even if that is true, for

argument's sake, then can you let the sadhaks know as to how that

would be improper according to you? Also where according to you

religion is useful and where it is not useful? Please explain there

as to what else according to you is useful where religion has no

role to play? Who then plays the role? Also describe what do you

mean by saying- " unwanted children " ? How abortion is the answer for

what you want or you don't want ? No body cuts the body to suit the

trousers ! Isn't it?

 

I agree whole-heartedly with Mahalaxmi Dasi.

 

Fajeeti Rani

----------------------------

 

PRIOR POSTING

 

-Shree Hari-

 

I thought I would write down a few words that came to me when

reflecting on such a diabolical thing. Prem Khullarji, I am truly

sorry I do not have the knowledge to help with the sacred scriptures.

It is my absolute desire that Bhagwan will guide you, and bless you.

All I can do is bow my head in sorrow.

 

Do not murder me mumma dear.

I have joy to give, and laughter to give,

loving arms to embrace you.

Please do not make a silent space.

Mumma, I implore you.

 

With Respect and Divine Love,

 

Mike Keenor

------------------------------

 

Raam Raam Raam

 

Vandanaji's message was really soul toching and so was of Shirin.

If we can understand a simple fact that human life is not given to

us for any enjoyment or pleasures and that this life is a " KARMA

YONI' or " SADHAN YONI " where you have to do your duties only- the

entire discussion gets summed up there. If we can even understand

that this entire creation is a " lila of God " the thorn of

dissatisfaction felt by females gets removed. If we can understand

and appreciate the fact that there is one accurate and precise Law

of Karma in operation in this world , a Law which is blind, ruthless

but just and equitable, a law which is governing the the entire

humanity, then we shall understand as to why one is given the birth

as a male or female , or as to why it is the duty of female to

protect the fetus. We are in fact considering the Laws made by

Paramatma and are finding faults with each other. Males are not

happy with females and vice versa. We dont even resist from finding

faults with the creation and the creator. IF ONLY WE BELIEVE EITHER

IN PARAMATMA, OR IN PURUSHARTHA OR IN PRABDHA- such bitterness shall

not arise. But we are looking at the world as REAL, as a PLEASURE

GIVING CREATION and hence this state of affairs. Why blame males ?

Some body has to conceive. What if child becomes parentless on the

day 1? Does it not happen? What if another catastrophe occurs ?

UNLESS WE BELIEVE AND ACCEPT THAT THIS WORLD IS A MIRAGE/DREAM/LILA

OF GOD and our role is to play our duties diligently and realise

Paramatma - aeons will pass but we shall be no where near the

PEACE !!! If some female has been wronged, raped - she has not

incurred any sin. The male has incurred sin. Only when she because

someone has done injustice to her, does the same thing with another

innocent soul- she sins, not before. Hence -Vandanaji -scriptures

advice females against abortion.

 

Females can draw the solace from the fact that the brute males shall

not be spared similarly from the wrongs done to females. Law of

Karma will hit them more brutally. There is no need of quoting

scriptures to substantiate that. It goes without saying. When our

role is to do our own DUTY only - arising out of whatever

circumstances Law of Karma/Paramatma/Mother Nature has presented to

us in this otherwise DUKHALAYAM ASHASHWATHAM - then what remains to

be the issue ? ACCEPT THE CIRCUMSTANCES AS IT IS, DO YOUR DUTY, DONT

LOOK AT OTHER'S DUTY, REALISE GOD and ENJOY THE COMPANY OF PARAMATMA

FOREVER. Leave these worldly brutes, preachers, to their own fate.

GET YOURSELF OUT OF IT. That is all

 

Pranaam to all sadhaks

 

Beenani S

 

---------------------------

My dandavats to all in this forum,

In response to the questions posed below, I would like to attempt to

address point by point the suggestions made by our sadhak, Naga

Narayan.

 

Please explain, how one can deal with the issue of life/death in an

impersonal way? (as you have begun your presentation saying, " I

have to be pragmatic and impersonal..... " ) Is this truly something

that makes any sense? How does one discuss the issue of a mother

killing her child in an admittedly impersonal way? Something is

very wrong here, and I am not saying this to find fault. Please,

kindly ask yourself this question, How is it possible to state, " I

will deal with this issue in an impersonal way " ....when the very

nature of the subject is extremely personal, so much so that many

woman cannot live without their child? How can a man know the grief

and pain and heartache a mother would feel when her child is taken

away? Only if he is extremely mature on an emotional level, having

undergone very deep growth either in this life or previous, will he

be ALLOWED to know this pain. It is not an easy thing for a man to

know the depth of a womans' pain.

 

In the story of Prahlad Maharaj, we learn from the Srimad

Bhagavatam that the demigods had made a decision to arrest the

mother of Prahlad, while he was still in the womb, and when the

child was born, to kill him. Because his father, a terrible demon,

was performing austerities by which to conquer over the demigods,

and the fearful demigods were anxious that the child within the womb

would be an even greater demon. The great sage, Narada Muni,

arrived on the scene, and chastised the fearful demigods,

saying, " Even if you wanted to kill this child, you would not be

able to. He is a great devotee of the Lord " . Narada then took the

mother to his ashram, and constantly uttered Hari Katha, which was

heard by the embryo. When Prahlad was developing as a child, he is

renowned for instructing his school friends to sing the glories of

Lord Krsna, to put devotion before everything.

 

What right do any of us have to say what will be the character of

any given child? Or what will be it's destiny after leaving the

womb of the mother? Certainly, if you walk up to orphan's in the

street, very few will say, " Yes, we would prefer to have died. "

 

You speak of the child within the womb not having a decent father.

This is certainly tragic, but isn't it more tragic for someone to

say, " Child, you should be dead rather than live without the love of

your father " . I personally cannot comprehend this logic. Isn't the

Supreme Lord the father of all? Isn't he able to manifest in so

many, various forms, to help the living entities in this world? I

can speak from personal experience, if the child has one good

parent, either mother or father, they can conquer. They can go on

to achieve wonderful things.

 

There is a statement below, " the questions that would bother me if I

impose my personal agenda of anti-abortion are many … Well, my

dear Prabhu....when did anyone's presentation of defending the

rights of an unborn fetus become " my personal agenda " ? Speaking the

truth, that murder is sinful, is never, never, never going to become

any individual's personal agenda. It is crystal clear who actually

has a personal agenda.

 

What is the point of this forum? For anyone to give their

own " personal agenda " ? No. It is to elucidate, in regard to the

teachings of the ancient scriptures, what is proper conduct for

human beings.

 

I AM NOT ONE TO BLINDLY FOLLOW ANY TEACHINGS. IT IS NOT ONLY IN

AMERICA THAT A WOMAN HAS THE RIGHT TO BE LOVING, TO BE RESPECTED, TO

BE PROUD OF THE CONCEPT OF " I AM A MOTHER'. All women have this

right, and for any man to try to justify a woman killing her child,

is to attempt to strip her of everything that is precious to the

concept of not just a woman, but also that of a mother. What

memories are you speaking of, that she will have if the child is

born? You did not mention the horrendous guilt and memories she

would have after killing her child? Why not mention those alongside

the other.

 

Certainly men these days need to look at their traditional

roles, and what gives SOME of them the sense that women are merely

objects of their pleasure. To those men, my prayers, that you may

somehow become educated...become wise...go beyond your inflated,

pompous ego, and understand that the women of the world who truly

seek to be righteous, to be motherly, to be beautiful.....are what

will save this planet. I do not speak of all " women " .....there are

souls in both categories, of men and women, who are selfish,

destructive to themselves and others, and unable to uplift

themselves. Only our prayers for their benefit.....

 

In concluding, please allow me to examine one last paragraph.....

How correct is it on my part to insist the woman to forget that she

is also a human being entitled equally to liberty of actions and

freedom of thoughts just like me? Is it not that such victims should

be given more freedom to express themselves? … as they truly want?

 

Is this the words of a male " women's libber " ? As they were called

back in the seventies and eighties? Where does " entitled equally

to liberty of action and freedom of thought " enter into the picture

of the life of one who is dedicated to spiritual growth? Whether

male or female, if an individual studies the Gita and other sacred

teachings, even if he/she is not HIndu, still there is acceptance of

a path of religious or proper conduct. One must accept that various

courses of action have to be abandoned. Meat eating is not

conducive to spiritual life. Nor is intoxication, illicit sexual

relations, gambling, or killing of unborn babies. Regardless of how

they entered into the womb. This goes for men, as well as women.

I remember back in 1980, when I was first married, there was an

Indian doctor in Colorado where I was living in my first year of

marriage. He quit his job at the hospital, because he was

instructed to perform an abortion. He could not do it, as he had

some understanding, that, " I am NOT entitled equally to liberty of

action " . His thought was, " I am bound by the teachings of my

superiors, of my culture " . When one desires to grow in love for the

supreme, he or she does not stop thinking, feeling, expressing, but

still there is a narrow path to follow. If one wanders from that

path, he or she will be eaten by the tigers of material enjoyment.

So, suit yourselves, dear readers, if you choose to demand " freedom

of thought " , in the sense that " anything goes " . Karma will continue

to flow, whether we declare we are free of it or not. I can boldly

place my hand in a blazing fire, declaring, " I will not be burnt! "

but guess what? I will be horribly burnt. And that is not blind

religious dogma, it is merely the truth.

 

respectfully submitted, Mahalaksmi DAsi

---------------------------

Nobody likes to abort. But abortion is common these days to prevent

unwanted births due to failure of family planning. To bring religion

into it is silly because otherwise each woman would produce 20

children and the world would come to an end.

 

Hari Shanker Deo

---------------------------

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

We all become despondent like Arjuna over the course of this

spiritual journey, yet if we hear Sri Krishna's message to the

despondent Arjuna, the ultimate victory is only in following dharma,

whether it be rape or any other situation.

 

Human birth is RAREST and BEST form of all births, (1 of 8.4 million

species), and the ONLY birth where salvation is possible, therefore

to destroy at inception ??? We don't know the potential of that

Soul at inception. He / she could become one of the greatest

Saints !! a Mahatma ! and not to even give it a chance? can that

make any sense from a dharmic perspective?

 

To reiterate / summarize Varun Paprunia has stated Swamiji's

response on tough issue such as rape. Please re-read it. To

summarize some key points -

 

1) Rapist will incur terrible sin, and even woman too if she derived

pleasure.

2) Woman who aborts will definitely incur the sin of abortion.

Swamiji goes so far as to say, not to abort even if life of woman is

in danger, therefore aborting after rape is out of the question.

3) If raped women, becomes pregnant, best to give birth, nuture if

possible, if not turn over for adoption.

4) If unmarried becomes pregnant, it is better to bear the

defamation for committed sin than abortion, suicide or running from

home.

 

Swamiji's article " Abortion - Worst of All Sins " pg 990 - Saadhan,

Sudha, Sindhu in Hindi, is a must read for all and any one in this

dilemma. It is on a Video called " Silent Scream " by Dr. Nathenson,

who out of curiosity had take the ultrasound video of the entire

abortion procedure. However after watching that video, neither the

doctor who aborted, nor Dr. Nathenson, ever again returned back to

their clinic. I have the English translation, if there is interest I

could post.

 

Meera Das

Ram Ram

 

---------------------------

 

PRIOR POSTING

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

I have been a member of this group from the past few months

and have been quite influenced by the thoughts expressed by sadhaks.

But I am surprised to see that blame of abortions has been laid only

on the women. I think body of the female is involved but their male

counterparts are also equally responsible for the sin. why the

learned and respected sadhaks are counting sins that will be upon

the female involved in the sin. As I said physical body of the

female is involved and as I have learned form this sat sang only

that body is unreal and nothing it is the soul that is real. I

think the soul of their male counterparts should be equally

responsible for the sin. Can all these learned people who have read

so many scriptures also count the sins that would be upon the males

to discourage them from such acts. I think if the males desist from

misusing female body and are forthcoming in having responsibilities

of the child no woman on earth would like to abort.

 

VANDANA

---------------------------

NOTE: My response had to be lengthy ... pl. wield patience to

examine the same ... Apologies ... Naga.

 

About abortion, its insanity and its sanity

===========================================

 

I am unable to contain myself with this burning social issue on

which enormous confusion is looming around from ages. I decided not

to pursue this further … but, could not help but to get back.

 

There has been considerable debate on the issue of abortion here.

Considerable emotions are thrown in as well. It is good to know that

there are so many souls sensitive enough on the serenity of life.

 

OF COURSE, ABORTION IS A HIDEOUSLY PAINFUL CONCEPT AND A HEINOUS

REALITY TO ANY SANE PERSON.

 

It is not acceptable to me in person as well! The true question here

is, should it not be acceptable at any cost? I have to be pragmatic

and impersonal to address such a grave question.

 

FYI, the burning question is,

 

" Whether a raped woman has right NOT to bear the resultant feutus? "

 

NOT, " Whether abortion is good or not? "

 

I request you all to review your opinions with this in mind. When I

uttered what I did, I put myself in such a woman's position and felt

what it would be like in meditation. If it helps, put yourselves or

your beloved ones in such a position and then think about such

burning questions. Blindly quoting scriptures cannot resolve social

issues. Resonance with the problems with utter transparency can

alone bring resolution to such issues. Therefore, I again urge you

all … put yourselves and/or your beloved ones in such a woman's

condition … and then think. PLEASE.

 

The questions that would bother me if I impose my personal agenda of

anti-abortion are many …

 

How correct is it on my part to insist the woman to forget that she

is also a human being entitled equally to liberty of actions and

freedom of thoughts just like me? Is it not that such victims should

be given more freedom to express themselves? … as they truly want?

 

How correct is it to insist that violation of her core existence is

nothing when compared to some values that I belieive in, whatsoever

it is?

 

Suppose the woman listens and bears the child. She is obviously

tormented by the memory of her violation all through as the feutus

as well as the future child keeps this torment alive by keeping the

memories alive … how can she conduct herself as a mother with joyous

love toward the child when she herself is tormented?

 

How can any value I preach replace her torment? Nobody here seems to

be bothered about what to do the bastard who violated her! All are

throwing stones of religious insistence on the poor woman who is

already suffering from her misfortune!! What difefrence is there

between ones who physically kill such innocent victims with stones

and the ones who are throwing stones of guilt to kill her

psychologically?

 

On the other hand, the child who missed the true love and compassion

of a mother … can my religious insistance take responsibility for

such children's welfare? Can anything, even god, replace the joyous

love of a mother?

 

Suppose the child was born … there is no father … after all, how can

a rapist be a father? Even if he takes such a role, it is worse than

not having one … Have you ever considered the fate of a father-less

child? Can anything such as religion replace a father to a child?

 

What rights do we have to impose motherhood on a woman who is not

ready?

 

What rights do we have to deceive the child off its mother's joyous

love?

 

What rights do we have to dismiss the heavenly affection of a father

to such a child?

 

Afterall, if a child grows in such anarchical circumstances … what

person would it turn out to be? … a depressed vegetable, a synical

contortionist or a cruel criminal … what rights do we have have to

impose such a tax on the rest of the soceity?

 

I have not touched upon many smaller, but yet burningly real, issues

… Who will bear the econmoc burden of supporting the unfortunate

mother and the fatherless child? Who will bear the social burden of

keeping the unfortunate woman and her child happy? Is it worth being

an orphan struggling for a mouthful on the streets? I can not answer

this … an orphan can and should!

 

It is OK … the woman gave birth to a child … what about the rest of

her life? Who will marry her? If not, her whole womanhood is wasted

… in our own terms, it is a bigger sin that she is not bearing

children anymore … unless the religion summons her to keep

reproducing children the same way!!! Should it?

 

After all what use was there by the honourable religion's

intervention in such personal issues? Could it make the woman happy?

Could it make the child happy? Could it contribute to soceity's

health anyway?

 

FINALLY, CAN MY IDEOLOGY OF ANTI-ABORTION SUPERCEDE ALL THE

CONSEQUENTIAL SOCIAL CALAMITIES?

 

Answers to such subtle questions are always circumstantial. The

soceity is ever dynamic and keeps changing its value structure.

Accordingly social solutions should evolve to keep the soceity as

well as its elements in in its healthy dynamic equilibrium.

Reference to scriptures is valuable only if it is interpreted with

the circumstantial sanity in mind. For example, one might have

realized god ... it does not mean that the victim is also god-

realized. One should get into the victim's shoes to experience the

agony and search for the solution there. That requires the thinkers

of the soceity to resonate with the issue. As a spiritual seeker I

accept the highest degree of social responsibility Bhagavan Vyaasa

instructs me with:

 

Yadyadaacharati shreshthastattadev'taro janaah |

Sa yatpramaanam kuru te lokaastadanuvartate ||

 

Because others are probably gullible to just take the advise from

an " apparently intelligent source " … as a spiritual seeker I need to

consider the background of the soceity thoroughly without pushing my

personal ideologies …

 

Therefore … I request you all to put yourselves in the spot,

meditate on the issue ... and, then deliberate. PLEASE.

 

AGAIN, the question is, " Whether a raped woman has right NOT to bear

the resultant feutus? " This question does not raise if she is happy

to bear it on her own.

 

AND, the question is NOT, " Whether abortion is good or not? " –

answer to this is self-evident and does not require further

deliberation.

 

Respects

 

Naga Narayana.

-

 

 

Namaskar!

Personally felt revolted by the question in such a forum. In Gita we

talk of

karmayog. If one has done evil in any one of your even hundred or

thousand lifes

when we were on earth, obviously the same happens by law of Karma

when time is

right by Lord. Even Lord Krishna was not spared of this if one

recalls A bow was

shot on his ankle as some hunter had mistaken him for an animal from

far. The

person concerned was agahast what happened then Lord Krishna pointed

out that

during his incarnation as Lord Ram in earlier Yug he had done the

same to I

think one of the sacred trribe of monkeys , I do not recall exact

name think

ItsSugrir. In fact Lord Krishna was teaching mankind that none is

above law of

karma.In simple lanaguge what one gives comes back to you in some

form or other,

good or bad. That's the spiritual look at the problem From

humanitarian approach

all possible help to be given to victim to come back to normal and

remove the

scars of her traumatic experience, by counselling sessions by lady

doctors over

a period of few months, as the victim me relive it and start

sweating thinking

of it in sleep and scream.

 

If it is woman who is subject to such a heinous crime, she has every

right to

remove the foetus, provided it is before 12 weeks when new life sets

in. Before

that it is a mere lump of body flesh.

 

Request that spiritual things be discussed not such things, as it is

brining

down the level of decorum of Sacred Gita discussions. Nothing will

be gained

spiritually in any way by talking of man's falling moral standards

and brute

like attitude, only change will be we will become lower in

spirtuality. After

all a man is known by company he keeps. Surely there are more better

spiritual

topics than this!! We are nobody to judge others and point fingers

at them, as 4

fingers point back to us. We need to improve ourselves looking at

every

intention of ours like does it havve traced of moha, lobh krodh,

voilence,

rectify oursleves and be fit before we even consider improving

others.

 

Gratitude

 

shirin

 

---------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

 

Jai Hanuman

 

How the " mother " was and how the " mother " has now become - in this

Kaliyuga ! Killing own children ! Indeed - words can't express the

anguish of the soul !! ( Mike Bhaiyya ! I used your words- anguish

of soul !)

 

TU KITNI ACHHI HAI ? TU KITNI BHOLI HAI ? PYAARI PYAARI HAI ! O

MAA ! O MAA !

 

How good are you O Mom ! How docile are you O Mom! Oye Lovely Lovely

Jee ! O Mom ! O Mom!!

 

KI YE JO DUNIYA HAI , YE VAN HAI KAANTO KA , TU FULWAARI HAI ! O

MAA ! O MAA !!

 

That what is this world? This is only a forest of thorns ! You are

mass of flowers in it !! O Mother ! O Mother !!

 

APNA NAHIN TUJHE SUKH DUKH KOI , MAIN MUSKAAYA TU MUSKAAI , MAIN

ROYA TU ROYI !!

 

O Mom! You have no concern for your own pleasures and pains at all !

If I smile , you smile ! If I cry , you cry !!

 

MERE HANSANE PE , MERE RONE PE , TU BALIHAARI HAI ! O MAA , O MAA !!

 

You are ever loving - irrespective of whether I smiled or I cried !

You agree to however I am !! O Mom ! O Mom !!

 

MAA BACHON KI JAAN HOTI HAI ! WOH HOTE HAI KISMAT WALE JINKE MAA

HOTI HAI !!

 

A Mother is the very life force of the child. Fortunate are those ,

whose mother lives long !

 

KITNI SHEETAL HAI, KITNI SUNDAR HAI , NYAARI NYAARI HAI ! O MAA , O

MAA !!

 

How calm ! How adorable !! Always exclusive , super exclusive !! O

Mother ! O Mother !!

 

Hey Daddy the Great ! O Mom !! Kindly save us all from such ghastly

crimes !

 

Agreed, O Binanee S, Jee ! Agreed Vyas NB Jee !! Agreed Mahalaxmi

Maiyyaji !!! Agreed Mira Bahenji !!!! Mike Bhaiyya- sitting with

consort??? - how difficult it can become - when BG 18:32 is

operational?? - for both and each one ? Baba ! Where are we going ?

 

KAHAAN JAA RAHA HAI , TU AIYE JAANE WALE ! ANDHERA HAI MAN KAA DIYA

TO JALALE !!

 

Where are you going O Traveller ? There is darkness all around ! Why

don't you burn the light of " CONSCIENCE " within ?

 

May all understand what is way out of BG 18:32 !!!

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

--------------------------

 

Hari Om

 

Khullarji. Here are some slogans

 

* Silent scream of the fetus - what is my fault O Mummy ? What is my

fault O daddy ?

 

* Don't suck life out of me! Save m ! Save me! Have mercy on me ! I

will bring pleasures in your garden! O mummy - I am your daughter

only!

 

 

* Mera kasoor kya hai ?

 

* O mom ! Please give me birth. My own fate will take care of me

thereafter!

 

* O murderers! You will not even get water in future births what to

talk of food !

 

* O parents ! You enjoyed and I get killed! Is this humanity?

 

* Even a witch leaves at least one house unharmed! Don't kill fetus

in the womb ! Even witches don't do that!

 

* Fetus killing - a frightful disrespect to motherhood !

 

* You want to increase production on one hand and kill producer in

the womb itself- what kind of wisdom is this? What kind of

government is this?

 

* Birth control means converting a female into a prostitute !

 

* Control death first and then think of controlling birth !

 

* Fetus killing is resorted by those who neither believe in

Paramatma, nor in prarbdha (destiny) nor in purushartha!

 

* Getting medical test done, finding female fetus in the womb and

killing ! Is this respect to a woman? Is this a way of giving women

equal rights?

 

* O mothers! Don't lose the power of motherhood for ever! Don't kill

your child! Don't become object of pleasure only for men! Don't

become prostitutes!

 

* Kill fetus and become a non fruit bearing tree forever!

 

* Don't be so merciless O parents ! There will be no one left even

to give you a drop of water in future!

 

* Female fetus killing is the surest method of eliminating mothers

from the planet ! In whose womb you shall sleep in the next birth?

 

* Even bitches, witches and vampires do not kill their own children!

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

 

 

---------------------------

My dandavats to all in this forum...

MY heart breaks when I read the post of Prem Kullar. It is so

terrible that the east has taken up the course of following

activities of the west. I have lived in america my entire life, and

although perhaps I am " privileged " in the sense that I own propety,

car, etc.....I am extremely aware that there is no culture here in

America. No deep rooted traditions, no religious coloring of any

particular faith, and no strong bonds in communities. What little I

could offer in this discussion, is simply WHY? WHY? WHY FOLLOW THE

WEST? Though Sri Krsna's love is everywhere, though daily I

encounter beautiful people with loving hearts, they are suffering so

much in this country. The stress of city life is tremendous.....but

in the country there is no money to be made....(I have done both).

THIS COUNTRY IS DOOMED.....there is very little time left for it due

to its atrocious treatment of the cow, due to abortions, and due to

its policies of usurping and controlling resources of other

nations. WHY, WHY, WHY FOLLOW THE WEST? From the mouth of one

who has lived here my entire life, WAKE UP. I have visited India

twice, both times became completely overwhelmed with love for the

Supreme, to a degree that I am unable to express.....will India give

up all it's accumulated piety to become a hellish pit of

impersonalism and selfishness as the west? I pray not. Again, my

heart aches, what can I say, except all glories to your efforts,

Prem....to stop murder. To open the eyes of those who are blind....

 

In the words of Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta in his purport to bhagavad

Gita, " Those who commit such abominable acts will never see the

light of day again. "

So, the chain of karma will continue.....those killing the fetus

will themselves have to take birth in a womb and be aborted, time

and time again, to pay the price.

 

respectfully,

Mahalaksmi Dasi

------------------------------

Raam ! Raam !! Raam!!!

 

Some slogans for Mr Prem Khullar

 

1. Dont kill me in the womb itself - O mother ! O father ! I

will come with my own fate supporting me in this world !!!

 

2. Efforts of increasing agricultural production and controlling

births is like efforts of increasing milk in mother's breasts and

then not allowing conception !!!

 

3. Oh Mom ! Dear Mom !!! Why I should get killed when you enjoyed ?

 

4. O Father ! O Mother !! Throw me in a dust bin after giving birth!

But don't kill me when i am so helpless !!

 

5. Please! Please save me O parents ! I have capacity to bring

pleasures for you!

 

6. What is my fault? What my fault?? If you don't save me, who

will?

 

7. Even the wildest and the cruelest of animals do not kill their

own children!

 

With sincere Pranaams to all genuine Sadhaks! Shame on those who

advocate such ghastly acts ! SHAME !! SHAME !!!

 

Beenani S.

 

------------------------------

Hari Om

 

Let me now address Khullarji's query.

 

Swamiji used to put up a bill board outside His temporary abode

every where that - Those who have done sin of abortion may please

not bring " bhiksha " for me ! " Bhiksha " - alm of food. Swamiji would

eat food brought by 5 houses every day.

 

In Manusmriti - 4/208 , it is stated that

 

BHROONAN GHAVEKSHITAM CHAIV SANSPRISHTAM CHAAPYUDAKYAYA !

PATATRINA VALEEDHAM CHA SHUNA SANSPRISHTAMEVA CHA !!

 

One should not eat food (1) touched by female in periods (2)

touched by a dog (3) partially eaten by a bird (4) seen by (what to

say " touched by " ) one who ever indulged in abortion !

 

Verse referred by Khullarji is in Parashar Smriti 4/20.

 

YATPAPAM BRAHMA HATYAYA DVIGUNAM GARBHPATNE !

PRAYASHCHITAM NA TASYAATI TASYATYAAGO VIDHIYATE

 

In Brahma Vaivat Purana ( Prakrati Khand, Chapter 2) it is stated

that in the beginning of creation, the basic prakrati ( Shri Radha)

threw her fetus into waters. God immediately cursed her - From now

onwards you will never have a child. Not only that, by your part

whatever " divya " females will get created they also shall be without

a child. Thereafter from the tongue of Basic Nature (Shri Radha) -

Goddess Saraswati incarnated. Later on that Basic Nature got split

into 2 parts. From Left body - Goddess Laxmi incarnated. From Right

body " Radha " incarnated. God also became two. From half left body He

became " Chaturbhuj Vishnu " (Four armed Vishnu) and from right part

He became two armed " Krishna " ! Both Laxmi and Saraswati were

childless. Then from the pours of Krishna countless " Gopas "

incarnated. From pours of Shri Radha countless " Gopis " manifested.

My understanding is that Gopis were infertile, childless !

 

In " Vriddha Suryarun Karma Vipaak " Scripture it is stated:

 

PURVE JANUSHI YA NAARI GARBHA GHAAT KARI HYABHOOT!

GARBHAPAATEN DUKHARTA SAATRA JANMANI JAAYATE !! (477/1)

 

A Lady who had aborted in past lives, suffers in this life on

account of being childless!

 

VANDHYEYA YA MAHABHAAG PRICHHATI SWAM PRAYOJANAM!

GARBHAPAATRATA PURVE JANUSHYATRA PHALAM TVIDAM !!

 

If some Lady asks why she is issueless, infertile in this life?

Answer is due to abortion in the past life. ( 659/1; 856/1; 921/1;

1857/1)

 

GARBHAPATAN PAPADHYA BABHOOV PRAGBHAVEANDAJ !

SAATREVA TEN PAAPEN GARBHESTHERYA NA VINDATI !!

 

O Arun ! One who aborts in prior life, can not bear child in present

life ! ( 1187/1)

 

As simple as that !

 

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

-----------------------------

Woman Power!

by TA Ramesh

 

Without Shakti, Siva cannot do any duty in all the worlds;

Without power, no matter can be active in the Universe;

Without soul, human body cannot survive in the world!

 

Without mother, children cannot grow hale and healthy;

Without wife, husband cannot maintain family and children;

Without woman, man cannot love and live in the world!

 

Beauty, intelligence and love are the aspects of personality

That helps women stand unique in the world;

But, so emotional by nature that it's impossible

For a woman to keep secrets in her heart;

And so, women let the cat out of the bag easily!

 

Hence women show the skeleton kept in the cup-board

Long to anyone who moves them most!

That's why taboos and restrictions imposed on women

Are perhaps rigorous and heartless in many religions,

That are, now, slowly removed by social reforms

By great movement leaders in the modern world.

 

Literature is also full of the Power of Women

As the Main Theme everywhere in the world!

Without the beautiful woman, Helen at the center of the story,

How can Homer's Iliad ever exist in the world?

Without the virtuous woman, Sita in Valmiki's Great Epic,

Ramayana can ever be read so long?

 

Thousands of years, by law and religion,

Women are kept as under-dogs to men;

Women are not just the Weaker Vessels,

Without whose encouraging support

Vessels of Tears won't survive in the world;

Without the knowledge, intelligence and support

Of Woman Power, no family

Can sustain, develop and survive!

 

with regards

Dilip Ravindran

----------------------------

 

PRIOR POSTING

Namaste,

 

Manu's verse ' yatra naaryastu pUjyante ramante tatra devatAh' ( the

gods rejoice/ are happy, where the woman is worshipped) is, I feel,

a powerful message to inculcate respect for women at whichever stage

she may be.

 

Shubhamastu

Anuradha Choudry

------------------------------

-Shree Hari_

 

Clarification: I was reflecting on a place where I once lived long

ago, I was not in poverty but I saw much of it. I would never ever

imply that one should hold a dagger, as it were, at peoples throat,

and demand they follow, rules on their personal behavior , it is the

opposite to what I am. Options can be shown to them, not killing.

 

Many people revert to medicines of some sort or another, for various

conditions, and it often means the death of some organism or other.

In reality many are based on herbs, and a vegetable origin.

In passing my preference is homeopathy.

 

If I get or any person gets bitten by a snake around here, then to

the hospital quick smart, for an antidote, not to is death. (why die

if one can prevent it?)

 

Driven by compassion one would like to see people live life in

comfort and happiness, why not?

 

Yes Divine Feminine 'Shakti', (she is universal), has been suppressed

for thousands of years, and the world has become unbalanced, she has

to sit with her consort once more.

 

My thoughts are exhausted on the subject, I will just read on.

 

With Respect and Divine Love,

 

Mike Keenor

--------------------------------

 

Raam Raam Raam

 

Great Suggestion is that either you dont make efforts to remain

healthy, to cure any illnesses OR we are justified in stopping new

births into this world. Either you control death or we shall control

birth. As simple as that. Why you are taking medicines to cure

fever ? If you are taking medicines, then we shall abort the child.

What shall the child do in this planet? Oh No ! Kill him. Modern

societies cant tolerate this non sense of humans coming on this

planet so fast. Where is the space ? Where is housing for them ? Who

will arrange for their food, water, upkeep, maintenance? How costly

are the living now a days ? We want freedom ! We have come on this

planet, and after applying our minds we have concluded that in

modern societies such non sensical obstacles to sensual pleasures is

unwarranted ! Kill them . Stop them from coming to this world. Now

that we have come into this planet, where is the need for any other?

It is these new arrivals that has made this world so bad, and

unlivable. No , Sorry ! We cant let them enter. Kill the fetus.

Simply kill ! All problems are only because of that only ! Kill the

fetus in the womb itself. Suck the life out of it. Let us enjoy. We

never wanted the child. We just wanted to enjoy the human life. From

where this conception hascome ? Oh , dont worry kill the fetus ! We

are modern, we are not orthodox people. If we dont stop human beings

from coming to this world, then what shall be the difference between

us and animals. Animals mate only when there is season for mating.

They have to exercise restraints and disciplines- not the human

beings. Animals are animals only because they mate only when there

is a season. We are not animals. We are human beings. We shall mate

anytime we want - morning evening, day, night, January, April, June

any time, any month. What a fun ! What an obstacle to this fun is

this conception. That is spoil sport. Kill the fetus. After all we

are privileged, we are intelligent. We can invent devices to kill

them anytime. Science is pretty advanced. Vacuum cleaners. Suck the

life out of that creature. What the fetus thought we are so stupid.

Gone are those old concepts of father, mother, protector ! Non

sense. We have mind, intellect, beautiful body. This conception

is undesirable - a simple nuisance! We have thought over it, all

problems are only because of increase in population. From where the

additional income will come? From where we shall feed the children ?

No ! Not Possible!! Our leaders also say so. Entire economy is in

mess only because of this over population. Enjoy mating, but kill

fetus. Where is the need for child here ? Shall we eat ourselves or

get entangled in arranging food for them ? Are we so stupids ? Come

On ! Either you control death or we shall abort !!! We are modern

humans. Kill the fetus. No arguments. Kill ! If you want to live

peacefully - murder ! Or Control Death !

 

Raam Raam Raam !

 

Beenani S

 

------------------------------

Dear Vipra Bandhavaha, evam itare suhridaha,

We must avoid debates and discussion on which modern educated and so

called Western feminist women will have strong view. It is a pity

that they could destroy what they cannot create. See the ten per

cent of married couples who long and yearn for children and are not

blessed so. Think deeply, do not impose your views on others.

Vriddha Divakarosmi Bhoh.

 

------------------------------

Jai Hanuman

 

People often say if the population is not controlled there will be

shortage of eatables on the planet. This poverty , mal nutrition are

only because of population growth. Hence population control is the

answer for all these menaces confronting humanity. Wrong are they!!

Patently wrong ! Absolutely wrong !

 

Taat Shree ( Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj) said that kind of actions

which so called intelligentia advocate to support population

control, kind of sins which are increasingly getting legalised -

what to say eatables and food grains , one will not even get water

as a result .

 

Oh What a pity Jee ! A human being wants to live comfortably and in

order to do that, he wishes/wants to put obstacles in another human

being, in it's being born ! Is that humanity ? That is how you feel

one can bring happiness, order, harmony, pleasure in human life?

Such arguments are in reality a garbage advanced by power hungry

stupid politians to justify mis-management of existing resources and

mislead. Economics !! Sheer Nonsense !

 

Indeed the intellect can get into the spell of what is stated in BG

18:32. This is Kaliyuga Jee. This is how at the last phase of time

cycle, the humans can become. It will worsen in times to come. Ever

heard the term " cannibalism " ? Humans are heading towards the same.

 

Get liberated Jee, Realise Paramatma, O Dear Sadhaks Jee, as fast

as you can. Future will unfold else the circumstances and scenes

which you will never want to see again. Who have been left?. Those

who from Satyuga, to Treta to Dwapar till today have always set

example of BG 18:32. Most of us are in that zone only. Hurry up

Please Jee!

 

See how do they perceive - Hell with your coming on this planet, we

have come first and now we shall not allow you to come ! We will

enjoy the physical relationship, privilege, without letting you

come in Jee. Don't you know who we are Jee? Humans , Humans ! We

are humans !

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

--------------------------

------------------------------

 

Hari Om

 

I am in perfect agreement with Mahalaxmi Dasi and Mike Keenor. Of

course Mira Dass was immaculate as usual, completely relevant and

absolutely correct. Frankly, I can't say so for most of the views of

Mr Naga Narayana. If he wants as a sadhak to know as to why I feel

so , we can discuss briefly through short notes the reasons thereof.

 

Mike- you are right in most of your observations regarding birth

control pills also. That is not bad. But good is copulation timing

and male condoms. Better is " control " over the very desire and the

Best is mating only for giving birth ! ONLY WITH THAT PURPOSE !!

 

Reply of B Sathyanarainji is 100 percent right. No doubt about

that ! Mahalaxmi Dasi's response is one of the best write ups on the

subject , I have ever read.

 

Certainly Sobhanaji. Shame on the males can only be and rightfully

be attributed by females who are 1000 times more able, better and

powerful than males. All powers arise from female - Goddess

Shakti . All glories and happiness in this world arises out of

Goddess Laxmi- again a female. Mother Nature is a female.. You are

entitled to say so ! Sanatan Dharma is in favour of your entitlement

to do so ! My compliments as a sadhak .

 

Operations of males/females so that there is no conception is

extremely bad act. You get disentitled to perform many rituals and

you don't return to God and atmosphoric airs, what was received by

you - for the reasons best known to you only.

 

I have heard this from elders (don't remember if I read somewhere)

that Goddess Mahalaxmi had aborted a child in some human life. Even

after having Lord Naraina (Lord Vishnu) as her husband, she could

never become mother again. As simple as that !!

 

How a man is a man, if he has no powers to become father, has no

reproductive capacity ? Just How? How a woman is a woman if she has

no powers to become mother, has no reproductive capacity ? Just how?

 

But Mike , I really could not understand any relevance of your

reference of over population at the near by place. Really ! If you

mean to say that over population is not desirable and must be

controlled by any one , then I beg to differ with you. We can have a

deliberation on this. Divine deliberation ! Real Satsanga !! Example

setting form of satsanga !

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

----------------------------

 

I agree with you Shobhnaji, thousand percent. Shame on us to keep

treating the women folk with deep rooted disrespect.

 

To others, this is a social issue. And hence does not befit this

forum. Therefore, I desist to respond to the other queries

raised ... Mahabharata and Bhagavadgita are as useful to the society

as to a spiritual aspirant. But … that needs a different forum.

Therefore, let me be brief ...

 

To Dasiji, Vyaasji, Mike and others who have commented on the

feutus's freedom to take life … my question is regarding the freedom

of the person living. Our poor brothern in India has paid heavily on

the rape, violation and enslavement for more than a millenium thanks

to the wrongly preached spiritual values in social life. Again, the

problem is not in the great spiritual values … but, in the

preaching. Bhagavan Vyaasa warns sternly … Na buddhidhedam janayet …

never preach these values … they are only for seekers. Because,

those who do not understand the depth of concepts such as Ahimsa

(non-violence) and Shaanti (peace) would let their natural cowardice

reign their lives. It is the responsibility of a saint to

acknowledge that the world cannot be saintly. Whoever tried to

spread sainthood in the history has achieved nothing but social

fragmentation … sainthood never appeared in humanity so far.

Therefore, if at all spirituality helps, it should let the humans be

just humans first from social perspective.

 

Dasiji feels that the death is not a Godly act while birth is a

Godly act. If their exists a devil against the God, I can only pity

such appreciation of God. Good and bad are our creation in our

illusions. Just because we love birth and hate death, we cannot

project the same ignorance on God. Birth and death are both God's

gifts to us. We should treat both the same way with absolute

respect. If we cannot, at least we should not wield hypocracy to

suit our beliefs.

 

God is not their to protect anybody but has provided everything to

do so oneself. Krishna never fights ... Arjuna has to. If God " had

to " protect, he would have protected the violation of freedom of a

woman in the first place. One who suffers has all the right to

respond to one's own suffering in one's own way. Spirituality cannot

trespass its compassion to preach either way. Such judgment will be

as lopsided as of the Bramhin who tried to interfere with an eagle's

attempt to eat its food, a snake.

 

Vyasji has quoted Karna … the goodness captive in the bad … nothing

but a slave to the bad … committed to serve the bad till death. What

is the use of such goodness? In fact, more harmful to the society!

 

Again, the society should be The Bhima who pulls out the heart of

the beastly violaters enroute. Incidentally, he does not need

Krishna's intervention because Krishna's approval is inherent in all

his actions.

 

Respects.

 

Naga Narayana

 

---------------------------

Namaste

 

DAADU DUNIYA BAAWARI , FIKAR KARE GELI !

ROTI DESI RAMJEE, DOPAARA PELI !!

 

Said Sage Daaduji

 

Mad has gone this world ! Absolutely crazy. It is worrying

unnecessarily out of stupidity. God will provide meals to you before

noon time.

 

Mr Naga Narayana - Worry not ! There is one creator, preserver and

destroyer , called, Paramatma ( Ever heard this name?) who will take

care through Mother Nature about birth, death, fame, illfame,

happiness and sorrow.

 

Said Sage Vashishtha to Bharatji

 

AHO BHARAT BHAAVI PRABAL, BILAKH KAHAT MUNIRAAJ !

HAANI LAABH JEEVAN MARAN, JAS APJAS VIDHI HAATH !!

 

O Bharat ! Destiny is very powerful. Profit, Loss, Death, Birth,

Fame and Ill fame are controlled by Destiny only.

 

Stop giving reasons. Simply dont disturb the Laws of Nature . You

have no rights to do that. What if our fathers also thought in the

similar manner? How we would have been able to become humans then?

Dont we run to a doctor if urine stops ? We are that weak ! Why

should we take responsibility of Creator on our weak shoulders?

Stupidity is that- Isnt it ?

 

HAM EK KHILONE HAIN, EK AISE KHILAADI KE !

JISKO ABHI SADIYON TAK YEH KHEL RACHAANA HAI !!

 

We are toys in the hands of that player, who is yet to continue this

world for centuries and centuries.

 

Chesta Vinod

-----------------------------

Priya Sadhaks

 

Sobhanaji has indeed expressed herself naturally and therefore

powerfully. But only in writing " Shame on you all " ! On balance

there was nothing .

 

Madam ! None is bad here!! Change the vision and you shall start

seeing the ultimate good here ! Try it !

 

Why inflict any shame on any one?

 

At the lotus feet of all of you and of Paramatma

 

MM Purohit

 

 

===============================================================

 

PRIOR POSTING

My dandavats to all in this forum....

 

In regard to the concept of taking pills to prolong health being

" hypocritical " if one is against pills to stop birth......I am

shocked that one with knowledge would dare equate the two concepts.

Doesn't the Supreme Lord appear as Dhanvantari, to give knowledge of

herbs to help human beings? Where is there any reference where the

Supreme Lord would say, " yes, abort this child " ? Anyone can say

anything, but one must analyze according to scripture, if he or she

is to truly benefit the cause of humanity.

Also, I believe it is a myth that there is overpopulation. I

truly believe that mother Bhumi can expand her form, if needed, she

is alive....she is not dead matter. The problem today is

mismanagement of the resources. In the time of Prthu Maharaj,

another incarnation of the Lord mentioned in the Srimad Bhagavatm,

mother earth also withheld fruits and vegetables and grains, as there

was so little sacrifice in the human hearts taking place. On the

threat of Prthu Maharaj, she agreed to produce abundantly. Are

there those who think these stories are simply folk lore?

Again, anyone can say anything, but the laws of material nature

will act, regardless. If I say that the sun will rise in the west,

I can say it every day til I leave this world, but will it happen?

No, it will not. I cannot change the laws of nature. Killing is

sinful, attempting to prevent a soul from entering a womb using any

birth control is sinful, and reactions will come whether one

believes or not. This is the law of karma. Otherwise, if this were

not true, it would stand to reason that there is nothing wrong with

unlimited illicit sexual activity. Yes, just use birth control,

have abortions, enjoy your body all you choose...IS THERE ANYONE WHO

CAN SUPPORT THIS TYPE OF MENTALITY FROM A RELIGIOUS OR DEVOTION TO

GOD STAND-POINT? I don't believe it is possible.

Also, it may be true that the perpetrator of rape is a

rascal....but a woman cannot justify her act of murdering an unborn

child merely because a male chose to act sinfully. The two sins do

not balance each other out. Women must return to their role of

being protectors of society, of righteousness...with no " attitude "

of hatred toward the ignorance of males, otherwise the love and grace

of Laksmi will never again flow abundantly on this planet.

The " blame game " should not be for those of saintly character.

 

Respectfully submitted,

Mahalaksmmi Dasi

-------------------------------

-Shree Hari-

I found the comments by Naga Narayana and Meera Das absorbing, the

full spectrum as it were.

OK there was a program on TV here, that showed an abortion, not

simulated, the real thing, the apparatus used was a sort of vacuum

device the sucked the life from the womb.

As I watched this, I experienced something unusual, I had no

emotions, it was as if I were stone, no anger no horror, I was in the

presence of demonic evil, somehow my emotions retreated, my defenses

were up, sometimes evil can be so great it seems, that words and

reactions have no place.

What I saw, I never want to see again,.

Preventing conception, is not killing of life, there is timing of

copulation, condoms, barriers, and birth control pills; they do not

abort, I personally think that the birth control pill may have

dangers, as it interferes with normal bodily functions.

However if the pill prevents the resort to abortion, then so be it.

If a woman is raped, the fetus is not the intruder, the brute who

raped her is. Punish him by the full force of the law, not the fetus.

(I understand in some countries, it's almost impossible to be charged

with rape, and the victims can be punished, how terrible!)

 

I have personally witnessed, the stinking mire that over population,

poverty, animals and humans living in close proximity, the over

powering smell of camels, goats , and sewage, and what it does to

people.

 

So on the subject of abortion, I see strength in Meera Das point of

view, and on birth control, I think Naga Narayana, has sound

arguments.

 

With Respect and Divine Love.

 

Mike Keenor

------------------------------

What about the karma of the men who rape? All the views expressed

here do not take into account that women are human beings, have

feelings and have the right to perhaps cleanse themselves of the

sins committed by men. Abortion is the only way to cleanse such sin

committed by men, who are " protectors " and hide behind religious

views.

 

Shame on all of you.

Shobhna S. Kumar

-------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Hari Om

 

Under no circumstance, even if the circumstance is life

threatening - the sin of abortion should not be done.

Any happenning in our life is outcome of our own karma meted out by

God's laws through nature. Law of Karma is precise and accurate in

its operation.

 

Every incidence has kripa (benevolence) of God hidden in it. Every

adverse incident provides you an opportunity to get closer to God by

right conduct and right utilisation of given circumstance. The human

birth has not been given for petty comforts and worldly pleasures.

It is a challenging, sadhan ( striving for God Realisation) form of

life. The austerity resulting from given adverse circumstances is

God sent/willed as per our own prior deeds.One must take such God

sent austerities as an opportunity for spiritual advancement. One

must perceive the human life as a special form of life- not to enjoy

worldly pleasures but to happily do one's duty without caring for

one's right and another's duty. Job is already on hand, of giving

birth to the innocent child, the duty is already on hand. The

aggrieved should take it so, give birth to the child, and thereafter

she may handover the child to orphanage etc.

 

One must be " careful in " doing " , and happy in " happening "

(result) " . No circumstance can force you to commit new sins.

 

Sanatan Dharma Scriptures deal with every type of circumstance.

Similar circumstance was faced by Kunti also. Kunti was mother of

Karna conceived when she was unmarried through Sun. She gave birth

to the child and silently surrendered the child to the mother

nature. Karna went on to be a part of history forever. Karna earned

admiration of all , including from Lord Krishna. He was one of the

greatest philanthropist the Indian soil has ever produced. He

redefined the art of giving/donating/ renunciation. He was " tyaag

murti " . Karna was the eldest son of Kunti- elder than

Yuddhister/Bhim/Arjuna/Nakul/Sahdev.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

--------------------------

HELLO SIR,

Your own conscience is the best guide. follow it. In so doing see

that your action does not harm the other person. Follow the maxim "

do unto others what you expect from others " That's what the Mahatma

Gandhi said, " I look to my inner self for guidance when I am in

trouble " . So said Lord Buddha too.

Ramachander Homma

--------------------------

Dear Sadaks,

If a lady conceives, it is not her wish or effort. Many women even

after marriage do not concieve. Why? The child to be born is

predecided by the Karma of that soul. In certain cases the child

gets aborted naturally, which is no way connected with anybody or

Sin.

But to abort a child is wrong. The cause is abortion and the effect

is the lady who aborted the child, will have rebirth as lady who

will have no issues (children). This lady who aborted can even be a

tree in her next birth, where the tree does not yield fruits. The

rebirth depends on once Paapas (sins) and Puniyas (virtues).

Referance Garbopanashid.

B.Sathyanarayan

--------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

I resonate totally with the views expressed by Naga Narayanji on

this subject.

No action in itself is right or wrong without regard to

circumstances surrounding it.

An action such as abortion may be right in one set of circumstances

and wrong in another set of circumstances. In otherwords, actions

are not inherently right or wrong.

There are many examples in daily life where we can see this to be

true.

I think that right action comes to one who is steadfast on the path

of righteousness (dharma), and seeks all decisions from the Totality

of Being(THAT) and never as an individual! In such cases interest of

all parties involved in actions are duly considered by THAT. Such

actions are God taking actions through people for people.

Namaskaras........Pratap Bhatt

 

--------------------------

 

PRIOR POSTING

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

As our scriptures says - if we believe that we are the Atma (Soul,

Spirit, Individual Consciousness), and if we also believe that human

life is the rarest form of birth (1 of 8.4 million species in this

Universe), and that only in this human form of life, one can attain

freedom from all bondages, one can realize their true nature, one

can attain salvation, one can realize eternal bliss, one can develop

love of God… etc., then common sense says that what Swamiji says is

without any doubt to be accepted - i.e. we have no right to stop

the evolution of a Soul, by creating roadblocks in it's evolution

cycle. This roadblock that we place on another souls' progress, to

not allow it an opportunity for salvation, will definitely have it's

consequences and is a grave sin. Most of the times, we sin due to

desire for our own happiness, self protection, comforts, betterment,

selfish reasons, and if we look at it from that perspective, also

the reason for abortions are also mostly for the same reasons, for a

little convenience and happiness, we are destroying another life,

and not allowing it to be born as a human, a soul that could have

realized the Self / God, and attain salvation etc.

 

Swamiji has said it is briefly addressed in Gita, under demoniac

tendencies. Gita 16:9 " Prabhavantyu grakarmaanah kshayaaya

jagatohitaah. " " Not believing in the eternal soul, the demoniac

natured appear as enemies of the world, for its destruction. " Gita

16:9

Unknowingly we destroy and kill helpless lives, and are hoping the

we will be benefited. How can we be benefited? How can we attain

salvation?

" Jaan-jaanker mook, asamarth jivon ki hatyaa karte ho aur caahete ho

ki hamaaraa bhallaa ho jaaye; kaise ho jaayegaa? kalyaan kaise ho

jaayegaa ?

 

For their selfish motives, such demoniac people indulge in violence,

murder and usurpation etc., without thinking of the pain, which they

inflict upon others.

" Dharmasarvasva suno, aur sunker dhaaran kar lo. Jo aacharan apnese

pratikool ho, usko dusero ke prati mat karo. "

 

Looking at a broader more Universal perspective, who truly takes

care of the 8.4 millions species? Do we? What arrogance to think

that we alone have the right and the burden of responsibility for

that conceived fetus? In many countries, one has to wait for years

and pay a huge amount, to adopt a child. Our ego and selfishness is

causing us to not give this opportunity to another soul and to

instead sin.

 

Not only that, many women who visited Swamiji after having undergone

several abortions, found their bodies to be significantly weakened,

undergoing several irreversible health problems. (I am truly

unaware of the medical and health implications, as this is based

only on experiences / problems that women shared with Swamiji).

 

After listening to Swamiji / reading his thoughts from books for a

number of years, after listening to the way He responded to question

and answers, there was never a question that he could not answer to

one's satisfaction. He had thought about everything he shared,

deeply for a long time, before he even uttered a word or stated

something firmly. In my opinion, Swamiji and all the major

religions of the world that believe in pro-life cannot be wrong!

 

Hope this helps.

Meera Das

Ram Ram

-------------------------------

Sanity and Sanctity of Birth-Control and Abortion

 

Many religions are committed to the propaganda of the idea of anti-

abortion and anti-birth-control strongly even in the so-called

advanced societies such as West. I strongly advocate that this is an

extremely lopsided vision from both social as well as natural

persepctives. By the way, spirituality has nothing to do with it!

 

We hear a lot like " birth is God's Grace and hence we should not

intefere; any such intereference is the greed, selfishness and

arrogance of humans against God's Grace " . I agree with it completely

ONLY IF it is also appreciated in tandem that " death is also God's

Grace and hence we should not interfere with that as well " . Death is

part of the creation as much as the birth. Is it OK to exercise our

ego to interfere with THAT when we are trying all we could do to

avoid/postpone the death? Isn't it the same greed and arrogance in

action in this case as well? Are we not disgracing ourselves by not

believing God's will in our death??

 

My suggestion to the birth-promoters is, " do not take a single pill

to interfere with God's will in the deseases, aging as well as in

death. Then, you are entitled to claim that one should not

interefere with God's will. " Taking all medicinal help to promote

our survival rate and life span on one hand and rejecting the same

for birth control on the other hand is hypocracy. Such attitude is

utterly (1) anti-nature resulting in lopsided population growth of

one single species on this earth; and (2) anti-society resulting in

undue stress of life demands overwhelming the resources. As far as

death control is excercised, one should allow the birth control to

balance the act in any soceity. That is social sanity and that is

natural sanctity.

 

Again, promoting one's material life on this earth is not at all the

agenda of Bhagavad Gita. The agenda is to cleanse the life we have

already taken … to learn how to live it well and how to leave it as

well. That does not remove any of our social responsibilities and

natural obligations. One can get liberated from the social

responsibilities by accepting the nature – birth and death alike. On

the other hand, one cannot get liberated from the natural

obligations till one lives.

 

Also, abusing the spiritual texts for social promotion is incorrect

and can lead to become frantically religious and religiously

fanatic. Bhagavaan Vyaasa advocates to never preach spirituality to

one who cannot appreciate it for one with half-baked knowledge will

lead to natural catastrophies such as population explosion which

eventually culminates in social catastrophies such as wars.

 

Na buddhibhedam janayet agnyaanaam karmasanginaam |

Joshayet sarva karmaani vidvaanyuktassamaacharan ||

 

For social issues such as abortion one should adapt common sense and

social awareness that reflects the circumstantial reality. If the

woman is forced to bear a feutus against her will, she has all the

rights to terminate the same. I request the same preachers to catch

hold of the male beasts that cause such distress in the fisrt place

and terminate them instead. Nobody has any right to interfere in

this matter when one cannot share the burden of the socio-economical

implications let alone the physio-psychological distress imposed

upon the victim. Why should an innocent woman suffer because of a

beastly male? Society should be The Bhima who pulls out the heart of

such beasts enroute. Incidentally, he does not need Krishna's

intervention because Krishna's approval is inherent in all his

actions.

 

Respects.

 

Naga Narayana

------------------------------

Dear Sir ,

 

You mentioned the shloka:

" Yat paapam brahmahattyaa dvigunam garbhapaatane; Praayashchitam ne

tasyaasti tatsyaasyaago vidhiyate " (Parasharsmriti 4:20).

 

Please let me know if you know any more details about this Shloka.

 

I am planning to put up boards with slogan in the villages with this

verse picture of Lord Krishna and Radha and duly translated thus :

 

BRUNE HATYA JO KARE HOGA MAHAAPAP

VIDHATA KA USSKO LAGEGA BHANKAR SHRAAP.

 

Any idea of better slogan? or any other thoughts on this?

 

Prem Khullar

-------------------------------

 

PRIOR POSTING

Hare Krishna

 

Answer to Question 1

 

Prashantji, I am pasting the answer of your question from Swamiji's

book " Sadhan-Sudha-Sindhu " page 960.

 

Q. If it becomes compulsory for woman to abort the baby due to an

infection, then what should she do?

 

A. She will definitely incur the sin of abortion. For protecting

woman people abort the baby but this should not be done. What has to

happen will indeed happen. If the woman has to die then even after

abortion she will die. If she is destined to live longer then she

will not die even if she chooses not to abort. Whatever may be the

cause of death, it will only arrive when the time is up. So abortion

should never be done.

 

Q. Should abortion be carried out in case an unmarried woman becomes

pregnant?

 

A. That boy and girl should marry who had pre-marital sex. If the

marriage is not possible then also abortion should not be done. The

girl should nurture that child and give him/her to an orphanage or

give it to someone who wants to adopt a child.

 

If a woman is raped then the rapist will incur terrible sin. If the

woman has derived pleasure from that then she will also incur sin.

All sins emanate from sensual desire. So the amount of sin will be

in direct proportion with the pleasure derived by that woman. If the

woman did not take any pleasure then she will not incur sin.

 

If an unmarried woman is pregnant then her parents will also incur

sin for their carelessness. It is a must for parents that they take

utmost care of their daughter and not give her excessive

independence.

 

Q. If society comes to know about it then she will become infamous

and no one will marry her?

 

A. After committing sin one has to bear defamation. Abortion,

suicide and running from home. In comparison to these three sins,

it's better to bear the defamation. If no one is willing to marry

her then she should reside in her father's house and spend her life

in worshipping God. This will be penance for her which will destroy

her sins.

 

Q. If a married woman is raped and she becomes pregnant then what

should be done?

 

A. It is better for her to be quiet. If husband comes to know about

it then he should also remain quiet. The couple's slience is best

for them. In reality, one should always be attentive from the

beginning so that such kind of situations do not arise. My

suggestion is not for abortion because it is an ultimate sin

(MahaPaap).

 

Answer to Question 2

 

Shri Khullarji, you are indeed doing great social service by

rescuing women from committing sins like abortion etc. This society

needs people like you.

 

Gita doesn't specifically mention about abortion. It strikes the

root of sin i.e. desire and God has spoken at length on it. Read

Gita (3-36, 37 and 16-21, 23, 24)

 

Premji, Gitapress has published 2 books.

 

Matrishakti Ka Ghor Apman (Code 420)

Desh Ki Vartaman Dash Aur Uska Parinam (Code 617)

Check the details at www.gitapress.org. You can use these 2 books

for your purpose.

 

These 2 books are also included in a 1000 page book Sadhan-Sudha-

Sindhu (Code 465). It is a compilation of more than 40 books of

Swamiji's teachings.

 

Thanks,

 

Hare Krishna

Varun P. Paprunia

-------------------------------

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

From Gita Talk Moderator:

 

" Sadhan, Sudha, Sindhu " in Hindi by Swami Ramsukhdasji, can be

viewed online for free at:

 

http://www.swamiramsukhdasji.org/swamijibooks/pustak/pustak1/html/sad

hansudhasindhu/main.html

Ram Ram

 

-------------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, This passage has moved me deeply. One should still

think about the fact that abortion is wrong. Firstly when a woman or

a man, yes a man can be raped by a woman for his seed. QUESTION 1:

If raped, the fact is the baby formed is not at fault. One does not

have the right to kill a child just because of that fact.

What would be such a case when rape occurs and the child is aborted?

your comments please. Prashanth

---------------------

Dear Sir I read the SADAK dt 26 september 2008 regularly . I read

the following verse in your letter dated 27/09/08.

QUESTION 2: In the Paaraashersmriti - " Yat paapam brahmahattyaa

dvigunam garbhapaatane; Praayashchitam ne tasyaasti tatsyaasyaago

vidhiyate " Can you correctly guide me as to where do I find this

writing below, also does Gita make any reference to this? I wish to

quote it in my meetings in the villages against the female feticide.

(aborting female fetus)

thanks, Kindly do clarify and oblige,

prem khullar

-------------------------------

ADDITIONAL QUERY:

 

Do any of you have any more details on this shloka from Paaraasher

Smriti - " Yat paapam brahmahattyaa dvigunam garbhapaatane;

Praayashchitam ne tasyaasti tatsyaasyaago vidhiyate " . Kindly let me

know any other scriptures where abortion is mentioned as sinful.

Gita shloka does not clearly point to abortion per se. The source

is important, therefore do provide it, along with the quote /

shloka.

 

I am in process of creating slogans for big display boards for

villages and cities of Haryana where female feticide is spreading

like wild fire. Please suggest good slogan ! Please help

immediately.

Sincerely - Prem Khullar.

--------------------------------

 

:Shree Hari:

Ram Ram

 

26th September, 2008, Friday

Ashwin Krishna Dvaadashi, Vikram Samvat 2065, Shukravar

 

" Mana jaane sab baat, jaan boojh avaguna kare

kyon chaahat kusalaat, ker deepak koonye pade. "

 

At present times such terrible and fearsome sins are taking place,

that simply by listening, one's hair stands on ends, eyes become

filled with tears, and heart is deeply moved ! Ram Ram Ram, what

terrible unjustice, what fearsome sins are taking place, but your

attention is not going there at all ! Human body is said to be the

rarest of all all forms of life -

" Durlabho maanushyo deho dehinaam shunabhangurah " (Srimad Bhagavat

11:2:29)

" Labdhvaa sudurlabhmidam bahusambhvaante,

maanushyamarthdamnityampeeh dheerah " (Srimad Bhagavat 11:9:29)

" bade bhaag maanushya tanu paava. Sur durlabh sab granthnhi

gaava. " (Manas 7:43:7)

 

Such a rare human body, is being destroyed at the very beginning.

It is being cut up along with the jeev, and this is such a great

offense, it is such injustice, it is a terrible sin! My mind feels

immense pain, it is feeling great distress, but what to do! The

human body by which one can realize God, to not allow that human

body to even be born, and to destroy it, it is the ultimate sin !

To not allow some soul the opportunity to receive a human body, to

not allow that human body to even be born, to take medication from

the beginning and destroy it, through abortion or any other means.

One has stooped so low - not only to think about going to hell

themselves, but at the same time not even allowing another soul the

opportunity for upliftment, for benediction ! Now what is one to

do? Who to share this with? And who will listen to my point? Is

there no one listening ?

 

For ascetics it has been written in the scriptures to not travel

much during " Chaturmaas " (four months in a year during the rains).

Because during these month, due to the rains, every seed grows into

a sappling, which later grows into a tree. By extensive traveling,

walking, these seedlings come under the feet and are destroyed.

Therefore during this four month period, the ascetics do not walk

and roam around much, so that unknowingly no violence is done to any

life form. In Bhagavat it has been said, that if you wish to gain

victory over violence, then reduce the movement of the body -

" hinsaa kaayaadhyaneehayaa. " (Bhagavat 7:15:23). When there is

so much thought put into non-violence around immovable things, then

what to speak on the subject of movable beings? But nowadays, the

best of all movable life forms, better than even the devatas, the

human body, is being contemplated for destruction, what a state of

affairs we are in ! (to be continued)

 

From " Saadhan, Sudhaa, Sindhu " pg 946 in Hindi by Swami Ramsukhdasji

 

For full online discourses in Hindi, please visit Swami

Ramsukhdasji's website. http://www.swamiramsukhdasji.org

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Re: Frightful Disrespect to Power of Motherhood

 

 

QUESTION 1: If raped, the fact is the baby formed is not at fault.

One does not have the right to kill a child just because of that

fact. What would be such a case when rape occurs and the child is

aborted?

QUESTION 2: Paaraashersmriti - " Yat paapam brahmahattyaa

dvigunam garbhapaatane; Praayashchitam ne tasyaasti tatsyaasyaago

vidhiyate " – where to find this reference?

QUESTION 3: Does Gita make any reference to abortion?

QUESTION 4: Please provide helpful slogans for Bill-boards.

QUESTION 5: Please also elaborate on sins accumulated by males

responsible for the rape?

 

--------------------------------

 

NEW POSTING

 

-Shree Hari-

 

I thought I would sit this thread out after my last comment, I did

however read through the comments thus far, and did a little

research.

The idea that abortion is some kind of import from the west does not

hold up.

It is ancient, it existed in Ayurveda/Atharva Veda practice .

Ancient Greeks had herbs they used.

And Spartans destroyed imperfect babies.

Infanticide/abortion can be found all over the world and throughout

history.

So I do believe, that looking for a 'fall guy', 'out there', is

looking in the wrong place.

Now if one believes abortion is OK, I suggest you do the following:

On

the web go to, 'Aborted Fetus Photos', go and look at the 'Gallery

of

Hell'. (By the way Mahalaksmiji the silent scream is also there, I

did not view it). Look deep and long, (if one has the stomach for it,

I haven't ).

Ask oneself, " does Paramatma want this? " .

 

Then consider the words of Sri Krishna below:

 

BG: 16.8 Those of demonic nature know

Not what to do or refrain from;

Purity is not found in them,

Nor is good conduct, nor is truth. (7)

" The universe is without truth,

Without a basis, without God,

Produced by mutual union,

With lust for cause–what else? " say they. (8)

Holding this view, these ruined souls

Small-minded and of cruel deeds

Arise as the enemies of

The world, bent on its destruction. (9)

 

Still think it is OK? Well, so be it.

 

With Respect and Divine Love,

Mike Keenor

------------------------------

 

Hari Om

 

The question of Prof Ramanujam is certainly one of the best counter

questions on this an otherwise very difficult and ticklish issue of

rape followed by abortion. Though I may not exactly fit in the

yardsticks prescribed by Professor, but I believe that I am a

scholar of Sanatan Dharma and definitely a sadhak, hence I am daring

to respond.

 

Professor ! There is not a solitary or single karma here. There are

two independent karmas. In one karma, the male is karta (doer) .

There the lady is not at all a karta. She in fact reaped the result

of her past deeds by getting humiliated. Only a karta can be bhokta –

it is divine law and justice. There is no point arguing on this-

both of us have to believe in a Super Power, His Laws and His

Justice. Hence in the karma of rape, no sin has been incurred by the

aggrieved provided she did not derive any pleasure out of it.

Conception is the result of her own karmas in fact, though, directly

it appears to be emanating out of rape. It is also possible that in

an another similar case that another lady does not conceive – Is not

it, Professor ? Hence after the rape whether she conceives or she

does not conceive is an independent thing altogether- inspite of

crime of rape being there ( though it may so look generally). It

is a separate " result " for her. Rape was a fresh karma of the brute

male- not for the lady. She comes out " sinless " out of the cruelty-

though she suffered humiliation. It is established principle of Law

of Karma that only the doer suffers the good or bad results- no one

else. Now once the rape has taken place one Karma is over.

 

But the lady has conceived. She could or could not have conceived.

That she conceived, is the " result " of her own past karmas. Had her

past karmas been better, she could not have conceived ! Now the

characters have changed. Now there is one lady and another an

innocent fetus. That fetus has not done any sin or has not

participated in the cruelty. What the lady should do? Should she

kill the fetus or she should give birth, and handover for adoption

or do the austerity of nurturing the child, believing it to be a

gift of God and live the human life? I believe in what Swamiji

stated in this regard. I believe in what Vedic Scriptures state in

this regard. I believe that human life has not been given to you for

enjoyment or suffering. I believe that it is a " karma

yoni " / " sadhan yoni " / " yoga yoni " and not " bhoga yoni " . It is a

challenging form of life. It is " dukhalayam " (Abode of sorrow) and

the " sahaj sukhraasi " (naturally blissful soul) has to play

his/her role here doing his/her duties only - so that he/she may

get his/her natural self. What is wrong in so believing, so acting

and so perceiving? Which Laws of Nature or humanity or God get

contravened if I believe so, conduct so and act so? But can the same

thing be said, if lady aborts ?

 

Put your hand on your heart and reply ! What if the father dies on

day 1 after lady conceives? What if lady trusted a male, and male

cheated her? What rights she has to kill an innocent soul? Can a

doctor be given liberty of killing merely because he has power of

saving life? There may be thousands of permutation / combinations

possible in the " results " meted out by the operation of Law of

Karma ! A mother has to under go many acid tests. Scriptures are

full of the instances of sacrifices which a mother makes to preserve

her child ! This is one of the many many such sacrifices. To be

mother is not easy ! No mother can be called a mother, if she is not

preserver of her child. NO WAY !

 

Please come back , should you need further laboration/clarification.

May I also take the liberty of requesting you to continue

contributing for benefit of us all in the deliberations of this

divine, selfless web site ?

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

--

 

Dear Shri Vyas,

 

By not being " overt " that was precisely the point I was making- that

a mother, under norml circumstances WILL NOT choose abortion.

However, as you yourself have mentioned, there are

several " aberrations " under which such a thing is possible. And,

yes, I do believe the Janani has the right to be the Harani too.

Again here, if the mother is not under any unusual stress, then her

chances of being a harani is impossible. However, modern life,

specially the move from the spiritual to the material plane has made

many people extremely stressed, causing them to make inappropriate

choices that add up to huge karma packets.

 

This planet, by its very nature is PRO_Life- in all of the solar

system, only this one subtends life. That itself makes a statement,

if you will. Over and above this, if we are still fighting for what

is " right " and " wrong " , I believe there is no answer as this is not

about right or wrong, it is about the prakrithi of this world itself.

 

Bottomline: when we support people who are stressed in a social

manner, we can prevent them from making such " anti-life " choices.

For all the " talk " anyone does, no one actually 'sits " and " holds "

the hand of the woman who has been asurically raped and left to fend

for herself with a fetus growing within her- all the more her own

famly and friends. Please correct me if I am wrong. The " chastity "

of girls still has social value in our country and it say otherwise

or say that we are so open minded to accept the tragedy and continue

as usual is rubbish.

 

Why do you think that only the " mother " makes the choice of

abortion? It is not uncommon for the " family " to decide thus to

avoid 'social stigma " . You are right- a MOTHER will never agree to

an abortion. But a depressed woman will.

 

Sincerely,

Meenakshi Srinivasan

-------------------------------

Namaste

 

Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj once said that if you see evil in

others, there is a guarantee that the same evil is definitely

existing in you.

 

Each sadhak has replied point by point to the views where they

differed in opinion. See responses by Meera Das, Mahalaxmi, Varun

Paprunia and Vyas N B. There is nothing wrong in differing on such

forums. That in fact is the motive of this forum.

 

Mother ! Where is the question of a lady becoming mother at all when

she aborts ? When does she become mother ? Please reread all

messages and related issues and discussions on every point before

responding. Are there specific points that were made that have not

been answered?

 

Moderators, kindly adhere to the established guidelines articularly

around lengthy answers. I shall be pleased if this note is

published by moderators !

Draupadi Arjun Sharma

 

--------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Hari Om

 

Meenakshiji !

 

You said :

 

When a mother chooses to abort her baby, she adds to her own karma

or she could be erasing the karma of the unborn fetus.

 

I say:

 

Who is she to erase karma of the Fetus ? Certainly and only she

adds to her own karma ! Is the fetus at any point of time unborn ,

once conception has taken place?

 

You said:

 

Just reflect

on the story of Ganga and the 8 Vasus in the Mahabharatha. She

drowns out all the 7 and the last one becomes Devavrath/ Bheeshma.

There is an Upa katha regarding the Vasus not wanting to be bound to

human life and sorry about being cursed to take human birth.

 

I say:

 

Why did not she kill them in the womb itself ? Think and come back !

What difference would it have made to 7 Vasus who did not want human

birth had they been aborted or they were given birth and handed over

to nature ? What difference would it have made to Mom- if no

difference why she took the trouble of carrying them for 9 months ?

Why the desire of 7 Vasus were not granted by Mother Nature? Why

were they allowed to sleep in the womb for 9 months?

 

You say:

 

Likewise the " killing " of the 6 children prior to Krishna by Kamsa-

there, he takes the karma of the terrible murders of newborn infants.

 

I say:

 

Why do you think a person as cruel as Kansa did not kill or ensure

abortion of them while the children were in the womb itself ? Think

and come back ! Are we not worse than him if we kill them in the

womb itself ?

 

You said:

 

As per the shastras there are 3 possible times when the atma enters

the foetus -

at the moment of conception, during pregnancy or at birth.

 

I say

 

Kindly quote from where you derived this conclusion ! Atma cannot

enter at 3 different times ! It enters once and leaves once ! Life

gets transferred the moment ovum meets sperm and enters the womb-

that is called conception ! Check with any scientist and check the

progression of foetus thereafter. You may even get week by week

account of growth there after in scientific literature ! Check

please !!

 

You say:

 

So, it depends entirely on the mother what she wishes to do with the

fetus.

 

I say:

 

Where did you read that a mother can also destroy ? What is the role

of mother to preserve or destroy ? Do any human laws permit a

Doctor to kill also, because he has power to save life? In which

species of life out of 8.4 million species prevalent on this planet,

you found a mother killing her own children ? Name them !

I need not say that each specie preserves them, nurtures them.

 

You said:

 

What is a 'greater " karma path - abortion or having to live a life

with the born child? This is something that can be answered only by

the mother and the " time " she finds herself in.

 

I say:

 

Who told you she has both the powers? If she is that powerful, why

she should not decide to save her own child? Did not our Moms decide

so ? If it is her sole prorogative, what is wrong - to murder or to

preserve ?

Does theory of " karma " ( in other words " duty " ) have alternatives

available ? If yes then whether distinction of " good " or " bad " can

be avoided? If no , then is the karma of murder good ? If yes, then

whether preserving the child is a bad karma ? If yes, then what is

mother ? A killer/murderer or a sustainer/preserver? In which

species of life, can you find a killer mother?

 

You say:

 

I do not believe we

can sit at our keyboards and decide for her. And interestingly,

based on the " mind set " of the mother at that particular time,

she can choose either wise.

 

I say:

 

What if her mind is driven by selfishness or deceit or sin or anger

or greed or desire or passion or ignorance or stupidity or comfort

or illusion ? Is mind governor of her ? What about " self " ? What

about " conscience " ? What about duty? What about justice? Is she

God ? If she is God why can't she change the very " time " or

circumstances ? Does not every choice available to any one

involve " karma " ? Good or bad !!

 

Now come on, Dear Sister ! Be bold and respond ! There is nothing

wrong in arguing in good spirit on this topic confronting the

humanity at large ! It is a healthy argument ! A pious debate !

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

------------------------------

 

I am disappointed that many people have labeled certain utterances

that came through me as " anti-Ramsukhdasji " and " anti-life " . Many

questions have been raised against them with agitation …

 

First of all, I do not see any disagreement. Even so, I do not think

a disagreement could disrespect anybody, particularly a saint like

Ramsukhdasji! Moreover, a genuine disagreement is the true respect

one can ever show to anybody! On the other hand, how can there be

any difference of opinion in absolute genuinity?! I don't think so.

 

Second, that I have no respect for the sacred mother-hood. I am very

disappointed with such unilateral judgments. In my understanding,

those words came through me only due to the deeprooted respect

toward motherhood. Moreover, due to an ABSOLUTE respect to a mother,

more than her motherhood.

 

FOR ME, A MOTHER IS MUCH HIGHER THAN HER ROLE, MOTHERHOOD.

 

I re-iterate my conviction. My mother is much more important than

her motherhood to me. She has all the authority – not just 100%, but

infinite% – over my life. If she chose to terminate me at any stage,

I have nothing to complain about.

 

I WILL NOT JUDGE MY MOTHER FOR ANY REASON.

 

I WILL NOT PREACH MY MOTHER FOR ANY REASON.

 

I WILL NOT JUDGE OR PREACH ANY POTENTIAL MOTHER FOR ANY REASON.

 

I DO NOT WANT TO INTERFERE WITH ANY MOTHER'S CHOICE, WHATSOEVER IT

MAY BE.

 

IT IS MY MOTHERS CALL … IT IS MOTHER NATURE'S CALL … WHEN TO TAKE ME

BACK.

 

I AM NOBODY TO CRITICIZE HER. ANY ATTEMPT TO QUESTION HER EITHER WAY

IS THE DEEPROOTED DISRESPECT WE HAVE DEVELOPED THANKS TO OUR

INTELLIGENT IGNORANCE :(.

 

I have nothing against Anti-Abortion. If anybody, other than a

mother takes a decision of aborting any child, I agree with all of

you 100%. Of course, it is the most heinous act one can imagine.

 

But, I have everything against any suggestion that violates a

mother's authority over her child. If she wants to keep it … it is

her choice. If she does not want to … it is her choice. Either way,

the mother – be it human or nature – is as respectable as ever.

 

For the first time, I am agitated with this group.

 

What I read beneath all these emotional outbursts is, … After all, a

woman is born to bear child no matter what … After all Mother Earth

is born only to support us no matter what … Lord Vishnu will come

down to order them to do their duty if they do not listen to us …

after all, what is the purpose of us being His bhaktas here?!

 

I feel as if the group is attempting to throw filth on a mother,

daring to label a mother as a sinner in a unilateral insistance

based on a mere opinion, belief, superstition! Now, I am angry!!

Because, I do not see any difference between ignorant people stoning

an unfortunate mother and this group!!!

 

PLEASE DO NOT BOTHER ME WITH YOUR UNILATERAL JUDGMENTS ON THIS

MATTER. IF YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT I UNDERSTAND, GOOD FOR YOU.

OTHERWISE, DROP MY OPNINIONS. I DO NOT WORRY WHETHER YOU TAKE IT OR

NOT. SERIOUSLY.

 

PS: I strongly feel that, certain group here is getting carried away

in certain notions and beliefs. It is very unfortunate that this

group is so intolerant to any suggestions – which may have an

apparent tone of difference from an accepted norm – to an extent of

fanatism. Unless one could respect a difference of opinion, one

cannot progress in spirituality – again, that is my understanding. I

hope, the group opens back to freedom of expression, IN THE REVERED

TRADITION OF THIS FORUM, that is fundamental for removal of one's

deep rooted ignorance. Again, that is just my opinion. Please leave

an opinion where it belongs to.

 

Thank You.

 

Naga Narayana

 

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

Nagaji, I don't believe the intent is to tag anyone as " anti-

Ramsukhdasji " and " anti-life " . Please be assured of that.

 

Gita Talk Moderator

Ram Ram

-

 

Jai Hanuman

 

Bharati Bahen ! Do you agree that - since time immemorial- many or

rather uncountable sisters might have, after being gone through the

agony of male cruelty, given birth also to the children and must

have faced the same cruel world, relatives, societies ? Same cold

heartedness ! Do you agree ? Who preserved them? Who took care of

them? Did not they live still and did not many of those children

reached to higher platforms than what they started with ? What was

wrong with those moms? Were they not worshippable? We as females-

what kind of compromises we don't make? Why we should bother so much

about the petty societies, relatives, some one in the world holding

our hands, accepting us, recognising us ? Are they ours when we

don't incur sins or when even we are whole heartedly theirs? Are

they ours when they have accepted us and held our hands? No ! No!

Dear Sister!

 

Duty never changes, Dear Sister ! Our role never changes! What have

we got to do with society ? We are answerable to God - Daddy the

great and to our conscience only.

 

One should believe in Daddy the Great only. After Him, one should

believe in doing duty of oneself ONLY. What kind of support we can

expect from this world - defined as " dukhalayam " ? What difference

such support can make if Daddy is not in favour? What is the need of

this world if Daddy is with us ?

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

--------------------------------

Dear Divine Atmans

 

Everything in this world is God's creativity and the facilities

which he has given us is for our comfort. Misuse of God's belongings

is the biggest crime which a human being does. As asked in the

questions about abortion. Every creature in the world comes with the

consent of God and he leaves the world only after his (god's)

permission. He has all our account of past karmas, he gives us all

possible changes to improve our mistake and surrender ourselves

completely in his feet.

 

No mother has right to abort her child, because it is the god's gift

for her which she should accept happily. As per the question of rape

a modern women has completely forgetten that she is a women she

started competing with men rape is the result of western culture

which today's youth have adopted with utmost pride.If a women starts

being a real Indian women and start living her life like typical

indian greatwomens like jhansi rani ,sita maiya, panchali they can

rigthly fight with the dangerous western culture which is slowly

destroying our Indian identity and our traditional and cultural

values. British left india but while leaving India they had strong

desire to destroy our powerful culture and traditions. British are

still doing that so it is time for we Indians to wake up and help

the great Yogic gurus like swami Ramdevji in their motto.We must

wake up and come forward to help these religious saints in their

motto.India is a land of devotion, peace,unity and oneness and our

saints are attempting each and every minute to save our land from

dangerous western attacks in the form of the wrong ideas they are

insisting in our peopls mind throug media and many other means.We

should be careful enough to differentiate between good and bad of

our county.

 

Jai Hind

Rakshita Mehra

------------------------------

 

Jai Shree Krishna!

I give below my honest thoughts; I will love to be corrected by a

vedic scholar, who is both shrothriya and brhmanishta (knowledgeable

and practitioner of teachings).

Ans to qn 1: When a rape occurs, the female is a victim and not an

intending kartha. Not being a kartha (Doer) she need be also a

bhoktha (Enjoyer). So no sin should accrue to her, by aborting. In

my opinion the intention behind a sin is important consideration.

Ans to qn 2: No clue. Perhaps wickipaedia could help.

Ans to qn 3: Not to my knowledge. My knowledge may be incomplete.

Ans to qn 4: Sex is a divine act, performed to cooperate and perform

our part in God's plan of creation; Offending a woman's modesty is a

heinous crime, which attracts karmic punishment.

Ans to qn 5: Rape is a gratification of the animal instinct of

passion, without exercise of human gift of rational thinking. Woman

is a sense object and the sense that is displayed by the rapist is

Kama. For the sins accumulated by males due to this kama, refer to

Bhagavad Gita III - 36 & 37 and II -62 & 63.

My regards. Prof Ramanujam.

 

 

--------------------------------

Hari Om

 

This refers to the question of Dr Rampersad as to who comes forward

to help the mother after we encourage her not to abort?.

 

Doctor ! Who feeds every creature every day ? Who sustains this

world? Who made males, females, this creation, Oceans, Sun, Moon,

Stars, Air, Water, Fire, Space, Bodies, Food , Minerals ? Do you or

me or the mother in question or the child or some one else ? Who

made us as humans ? Why ? How ?

 

Doctor ! Who decided that whether you should be a male or a female ?

Black or white? Born in a hut or in a palace? Born where in this

world ? Living for 50 years or 100 years or 100 hours or 100 months?

Did you , me or our parents or some body/thing else ?

 

Doctor ! I dunno as to your age and experience , but tell me as a

sadhak as to what is our role in this unique creation ? What are our

direct experiences ?

 

If you feel that " I am the doer " - then who preserves an absolute

orphan who becomes orphan , say from day 1? ( Is it not possible/

practical ?) Who arranged milk in our Mom's person ? Who will take

care of us , when we are absolutely incapable of doing any effort of

our own , say in our old age or say when we are very sick ? Who

circulates blood constantly in your vessels ? Who is responsible for

regular or irregular heart beats? Who made immunity systems in the

body ? Can we replicate such creation?

 

Think over these inputs. Think as to what is God , what is Destiny ,

what is Self and why that is . Just think a fresh. Please come

back ! That you should once we have entered Divine Satsanga !!

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

------------------------------

Interesting arguments. Here are mine to add to the bandwagon!

 

When we see from the dharma-karma cycle, all these 'events " of birth

and death are but mere waves in the ocean of consciousness. Given

that, attaching such opinions to either is interesting in itself.

 

When a mother chooses to abort her baby, she adds to her own karma

or she could be erasing the karma of the unborn fetus. Just reflect

on the story of Ganga and the 8 Vasus in the Mahabharatha. She

drowns out all the 7 and the last one becomes Devavrath/ Bheeshma.

There is an Upa katha regarding the Vasus not wanting to be bound to

human life and sorry about being cursed to take human birth.

Likewise the " killing " of the 6 children prior to Krishna by Kamsa-

there, he takes the karma of the terrible murders of newborn infants.

 

As per the shastras there are 3 possible times when the atma enters

the foetus - at the moment of conception, during pregnancy or at

birth. So, it depends entirely on the mother what she wishes to do

with the fetus.

What is a 'greater " karma path - abortion or having to live a life

with the born child? This is something that can be answered only by

the mother and the " time " she finds herself in. I do not believe we

can sit at our keyboards and decide for her. And interestingly,

based on the " mind set " of the mother at that particular time,

she can choose either wise.

 

Cheers,

Meenakshi Srinivasan

------------------------------

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

The extreme rarity of human birth and the only birth where

Salvation / Liberation / God or Self Realization are possible, on

having attained this rarest form of birth, instantly being denied

that right for realization / salvation, clearly --- there was

nothing more worse, in Swamiji's eyes than abortion (under any

circumstance). One has no control over what happens (e.g rape), but

certainly one has control over one's actions and choices (finding

workable alternatives without killing/aborting).

 

Most important of all, Swamiji, rarely expressed his own views. All

his teachings came directly from the scriptures, and he is only

sharing what the scriptures are stating. All other perspectives

would become secondary such as - society/personal/economical/family

etc. Everything else in this world is coming and going and will

work out in due time. It always does !

 

Meera Das

Ram Ram

 

------------------------------

 

I live in England and have a teenage daughter. I would be

interested in the english translation of Swamiji's

article " Abortion - Worst of All Sins. "

 

Thank you, the group has shed light on many things that were unknown

to me. Very informative ! Amita Nagarani

------------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

As I understand, this platform is concerned with understanding God,

Truth, and Realizing in our life so we can be guided in all

situations of life, one of which could be the issue discussed here-

Abortion. The way I see is that each time one faces this(or any)

issue, it is new when it happens and for all who are apparantly

involved in situation, even though this one is an age-old problem

having so many precedences. Therefore, one set of solution may not

be applicable in all cases.

The main question starts with: " If raped,...... " , setting a

speculative tone and expecting a general right or wrong answer.

If one lives a life of righteousness, following one's dharmas,

acting selflessly, with unbroken faith in Truth, that which is

Eternal and not transient, realizing him/her to be That, then the

decision to act in such situation would come from THAT Impersonal,

and not from " person " one assumes one to be but is not! That

decision will be right for that time coming from Truth itself, not

from " person " . The great example among many, is the just war of

Mahabharata in which killing even one's own loved ones are

justified. The whole issue turns out to be that of living a life of

Dharma, and Realization of who " we are " so that we can answer such

social dilemnas effectively.

Krishnaji allowed diplomatic ways in the war against Kauravas to

defeat the powerful among them which would have been sinful acts

including killings in some other set of circumstances.

I am not for or against as such but am for living righteously in

NOW, realizing my true nature, and be guided in the moment when

faced with such choices.

Besides, when God, the Supreme Intelligence sustains/guides all of

us, He/She does it only through people by manifesting through them

to serve greater good. There is nothing else but God says the

Sruti! " I " am not God as a person, but all of us together as one

Whole Consciousness, insentient included, are indeed God! Such

seeming persons are Saints and Sages and other wise people living

amongst us right now. So to abort or not is also Her/his decision

in the guise of people for or against.

Why don't we follow guidelines set by moderators and be a bit more

sensitive to those responses that may be against our own? This is

the real test of our own spiritual maturity too!

Nmaskaras....Pratap Bhatt

 

------------------------------

PREVIOUS POSTING

My dandavats to all.....

I am praying that I may not offend anyone in this forum....but I

am forced by my committment to truth to say what I understand to be

such.,Is the solution for women who are not taken care of, who are

not protected by either father, husband, or son and thereby raped,

to go and murder their child? The problem begins with the

government taking reponsibility for the citizens. If the leaders of

society would impose proper punishment to the rapist, then men would

think very carefully about putting their hands on a woman they had

no business touching.

 

Dr. Rampersad has stated..... " Who comes forward to help the woman

bring up this child, after we encourage her to have this child? If

she wants the child, fine, if she does not want the child, then that

is also fine. "

 

I personally do not think that aborting a child will ever truly

make anyone, especially the mother, feel " fine " . If the scenario is

that she doesn't want the child, is it possible that through

discussion with older, more mature women, she can develop a sense of

acceptance, a feeling of love, regardless if the circumstances are

painful. That soul is there, taking shelter of you, dear woman,

will you kill someone who has taken shelter of you? This would seem

to me to be a ghastly, unforgiveable concept....a soul comes to

another soul, under whatever circumstances, the soul (baby) has

come....it is totally dependant for food, nourishment, peaceful

environment, whatever it is given, it is dependent.....and the host

shall determine, " this guest is uninvited....I will kill it so I

don't have to be troubled " . There is absolutely no reason not to

think of the unborn baby as a guest.....he or she is a soul who has

come to stay in another's house (body).

 

The deeper problem in society is that families are not staying

together, elders are not loved and respected, cared for patiently by

the children whom they raised. The caring for elderly people

instills patience and love in younger generation....without this

patience and loving mood, how will young ladies develop as mothers

themselves? But finding surrogate mothers, fathers, etc. is not

wrong. I left home at 14 to live in a Krishna temple....hence I

have had to constantly examine and search for loving relationships

to help me understand my role in society, and how to learn proper

interaction.

 

Murderering an unborn guest who has entered our womb will never

make any woman " fine " . It will only harden the heart, and then once

the action is done, it is as if one had smashed a precious work of

art.....indeed, the most precious. It cannot be picked up and glued

back together after being destroyed. To suggest such a thing, I

feel, indicates a lack of understanding of the fact that when a

young girl or woman is bewildered, she needs support to love, to

care, to be brave, to pray to the Lord and to the Divine Mother to

give her the stability to nurture, when perhaps she never had much

herself. Because to do anything else would deprive her of the sense

of motherhood, the growing within herself of the qualities of a

beautiful, loving, caring, sensitive and fulfilled being. To guide

anyone to abort a child is truly not thinking of the future

developement or conscious of the mother, for once the act is done,

then there is so much other chaos, which cannot ever be erased. And

none of this is known to the poor girl who is being told to

abort....she doesn't realize that " if I had known how I felt

afterward, I would never have done it " .

 

If society does or does not come forth to help a woman, still

this does not justify murdering a guest. We all must accept our

karma, and pray to not incur more.....but let us also try to give

strength and support to help others be more loving....then little by

little, the karma of mother Bhumi's miserable condition may change.

She is a mother, she is supporting us.....with a grateful heart, let

us follow her example of giving, not taking, life.

 

With deepest concern and love, Mahalaksmi Dasi

 

-------------------------------

Namasthe all, regarding the question : QUESTION 1: If raped, the

fact is the baby formed is not at fault.

One does not have the right to kill a child just because of that

fact. What would be such a case when rape occurs and the child is

aborted?

 

I guess, some of the sadhaks have replied their opinions here. My

humble opinion is: Read and listen whatever has been said but one

needs to use one's own judgement in making these decisions. As one

of the sadhaks has said: what would you do if you are in the

position of that woman ?

 

Just a thought :

If you are insisting that the woman who has been raped need to have

a child, think about this: Would you purposely and knowingly help a

woman who has been victimised by rape and make your children play

with her children and make sure that you support her with whatever

you can. Do not worry of whether she should abort or not but

instead, try to focus on helping the child already born of rape

knowingly. By seeing your actions, other women will try to see that

they need not abort. Also, if you are a man, if one is not married

and he thinks that a woman who is raped should not abort the kid,

then let him marry that woman and become the father of the unborn

kid.

 

Talking and advising is easy. Standing firm with what we talk is

very difficult. also, if you a woman and think that the woman should

keep the unborn kid, support the other woman who is raped with

raising of her kid ? Let there be no expection when helping the

mother raise her kid. (having no expection for any of your actions

is Karma yoga).. Let your actions say the message and not your words.

 

Regards,

Bharathi

-------------------------------

 

Dear Sadaks,

 

Killing a child in womb or the lady commiting suicide is Brahmahatya

Dosh. One does not have rights to kill (himself or other). By doing

so the soul hangs in space suffers lot until it`s original date of

death. Every action done for the needs of the self comes under

Prarabdha Karma which one cannot escape the reaction. Such a woman,

will be reborn as woman, and will not be able to concieve a child,

experiencing untold misery and unhappiness due to longing mind for a

child.

 

King Dasaratha while hunting accidently and unknowingly shot arrow

at a boy which led to curse of separation from Sri Rama. Bhagavan

Shiva had committed Brahmahatya dosam, and for that had to beg with

bowl until Mahalakshmi filled the bowl. Bhagavan Vishnu took the

form of a king to make a queen (Maha Pathni) believe HIM to be her

husband. Bagavan never even went near her thereafter. But having

taken that form a curse came that Bagavan should become stone. That

is Salagrama. In all these cases it was for loka Kalyan

(upliftment/salvation/liberation of others). Arjuna was in Indra Lok

when Menaka/Urvasi invited Him for pleasures. In indra lok such acts

of engaging with differant persons not a sin. But Arjuna was cursed

for refusing, with being a Bedi (Neither Woman, Nor Man). This

disguise " bedi " was useful during the year of hiding in forest.

Sastras said that killing a person to save a village, dstroying a

village, to save a large town, are not sin. Any act that benefits

(leads to salvation) for more people (Lok Kalyan) is what must be

done.

 

B.Sathyanarayan

 

-------------------------------

Jai Hanuman

 

Very Good ,Doc Bhaiyya? Great !!

 

By the way, what according to you, Brother, was the practical

teaching of Lord Krishna to Arjuna in " aapadharma " which was

sound/appropriate enough for you to conclude that for the same or

similar reasons " the normal laws of morals or ethics can not be

established blindly- in case of rape / injustice " ? Please

enlighten, Jee !

 

What is " aapad " (emergent) according to you? What is " dharma "

according to you? What according to you are normal laws of morals

and ethics, Jee ? How they are so, Jee ? Why they are so, Jee? Who

made them so, Jee ? Are they so, Bhaiyya ?

 

What were the reasons according to you which made Arjuna to deviate

from what you call to be " normal moral/ethical laws " , Dear Brother?.

Did he really deviate from them? How did he deviate ? Why did he ?

Why he could not have conducted otherwise ?

 

This is a divine forum of sadhaks, Bhaiyya Jee !! Feel free to state

the voice of your " self " or " mind " or " ego " or " intellect "

or " conscience " or " body " or of " friends " or of " hearsay " ! Whatever

and however you prefer to respond !. Go ahead , Kindly - Jee ! But

respond for sure ! There are not many questions , if you think ?

Certainly not as many as are interrogation marks in this very

response of mine !

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

--------------------------------

Salutations to all in this Forum

 

Any controls on creation are direct interventions in the role of

God. It may result (or rather it has resulted/ does result always)

in calamities. Life when you look back and see, appears to all of us

as dream or non-existent. Humans are different species altogether.

They have to face the life as it comes. They should not run like

dogs for mere sensual pleasures. A female is much higher than males,

and advicing her that abortion is justifiable (in any circumstance

whatsoever) is a crime in itself. Women create and nurture the men.

Women are mothers and mothers are needed. What is there in the world

if there is no mother ? Imagine, the state of a motherless world !!

Just imagine !

 

Luca Brasi

--------------------------------

 

PRIOR POSTING

 

Ragarding Hari Deo's comments, religion is Duty! Duty is

religion ! Where is the distinction between the two? Does " Duty "

have no role when an innocent helpless one is murdered ruthlessly?

Who has entitled us to control Creation? As one sadhak stated, are

we even capable of doing anything if we cannot pass urine? Surely we

have to seek the help of a doctor. What is then our power? Ever

checked with child-less couples about their state (which includes

10% of the world population, and on the rise). How much more do we

want to contribute to this rise? Why?

 

Lallubhai C

--------------------------

Who comes forward to help the woman bring up this child, after we

encourage her to have this child? If she wants the child, fine, if

she does not want the child, then that is also fine.

 

It is a woman's right to determine what she should do with her body.

Particularly in case of rape, and life and death or any other

justifiable situations.

 

Bhagwan Krishna taught Arjuna how to be practical in the face of

appaddharma. This is also a case of special circumstances and the

normal laws of morality and ethics cannot be applied blindly.

 

Dr. Rampersad

--------------------------

Namaste to sadhaks

 

Mr Naga - if your observations are accepted by a confused,

dis-illusioned, yet innocent person, then what kind chaos can result

in her and in society at large? Was there any consideration given

to women being viewed as mere cheap objects of pleasures for men ?

Is this advocating for them? Or is it insulting them and

motherhood. The way I read into the advice that is being offered –

One should kill the child because when he comes out of womb there

will be no loving embrace of father. Or kill the child because some

one else sinned against the woman. X commits a sin against Y, then

by what kind of logic can justify Y doing a more brutal act, an

ultimate sin (abortion) against Z? What exactly is being

communicated? Why is it being said ? Who are you saying it to? How

are you saying it? In this forum all are sadhaks are people who are

drawn towards God, towards duty, towards the ultimate bliss and

freedom. Kindly re-think your message.

 

No ! Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj can never say a wrong word. What a

mother will not do to protect an unborn child ! SHE WILL GO TO ANY

LENGTH FOR PROTECTING AN UNBORN CHILD! That is mother!!

 

I join hands in support of divine work of Prem Khullar. I totally

agree with various sadhaks in support of unborn child .

 

Bandook Singh

--------------------------

Jai Chandi Maata

 

Mr Hari Shanker Deo - your comment about - bringing religion in

matters regarding abortion needs to be reconsidered /elaborated

by you. Can you tell as to how you arrived at the conclusion that if

religion is brought in this ghastly human conduct, then each lady

would deliver 20 children? Even if that is true, for

argument's sake, then can you let the sadhaks know as to how that

would be improper according to you? Also where according to you

religion is useful and where it is not useful? Please explain there

as to what else according to you is useful where religion has no

role to play? Who then plays the role? Also describe what do you

mean by saying- " unwanted children " ? How abortion is the answer for

what you want or you don't want ? No body cuts the body to suit the

trousers ! Isn't it?

 

I agree whole-heartedly with Mahalaxmi Dasi.

 

Fajeeti Rani

----------------------------

 

PRIOR POSTING

 

-Shree Hari-

 

I thought I would write down a few words that came to me when

reflecting on such a diabolical thing. Prem Khullarji, I am truly

sorry I do not have the knowledge to help with the sacred scriptures.

It is my absolute desire that Bhagwan will guide you, and bless you.

All I can do is bow my head in sorrow.

 

Do not murder me mumma dear.

I have joy to give, and laughter to give,

loving arms to embrace you.

Please do not make a silent space.

Mumma, I implore you.

 

With Respect and Divine Love,

 

Mike Keenor

------------------------------

 

Raam Raam Raam

 

Vandanaji's message was really soul toching and so was of Shirin.

If we can understand a simple fact that human life is not given to

us for any enjoyment or pleasures and that this life is a " KARMA

YONI' or " SADHAN YONI " where you have to do your duties only- the

entire discussion gets summed up there. If we can even understand

that this entire creation is a " lila of God " the thorn of

dissatisfaction felt by females gets removed. If we can understand

and appreciate the fact that there is one accurate and precise Law

of Karma in operation in this world , a Law which is blind, ruthless

but just and equitable, a law which is governing the the entire

humanity, then we shall understand as to why one is given the birth

as a male or female , or as to why it is the duty of female to

protect the fetus. We are in fact considering the Laws made by

Paramatma and are finding faults with each other. Males are not

happy with females and vice versa. We dont even resist from finding

faults with the creation and the creator. IF ONLY WE BELIEVE EITHER

IN PARAMATMA, OR IN PURUSHARTHA OR IN PRABDHA- such bitterness shall

not arise. But we are looking at the world as REAL, as a PLEASURE

GIVING CREATION and hence this state of affairs. Why blame males ?

Some body has to conceive. What if child becomes parentless on the

day 1? Does it not happen? What if another catastrophe occurs ?

UNLESS WE BELIEVE AND ACCEPT THAT THIS WORLD IS A MIRAGE/DREAM/LILA

OF GOD and our role is to play our duties diligently and realise

Paramatma - aeons will pass but we shall be no where near the

PEACE !!! If some female has been wronged, raped - she has not

incurred any sin. The male has incurred sin. Only when she because

someone has done injustice to her, does the same thing with another

innocent soul- she sins, not before. Hence -Vandanaji -scriptures

advice females against abortion.

 

Females can draw the solace from the fact that the brute males shall

not be spared similarly from the wrongs done to females. Law of

Karma will hit them more brutally. There is no need of quoting

scriptures to substantiate that. It goes without saying. When our

role is to do our own DUTY only - arising out of whatever

circumstances Law of Karma/Paramatma/Mother Nature has presented to

us in this otherwise DUKHALAYAM ASHASHWATHAM - then what remains to

be the issue ? ACCEPT THE CIRCUMSTANCES AS IT IS, DO YOUR DUTY, DONT

LOOK AT OTHER'S DUTY, REALISE GOD and ENJOY THE COMPANY OF PARAMATMA

FOREVER. Leave these worldly brutes, preachers, to their own fate.

GET YOURSELF OUT OF IT. That is all

 

Pranaam to all sadhaks

 

Beenani S

 

---------------------------

My dandavats to all in this forum,

In response to the questions posed below, I would like to attempt to

address point by point the suggestions made by our sadhak, Naga

Narayan.

 

Please explain, how one can deal with the issue of life/death in an

impersonal way? (as you have begun your presentation saying, " I

have to be pragmatic and impersonal..... " ) Is this truly something

that makes any sense? How does one discuss the issue of a mother

killing her child in an admittedly impersonal way? Something is

very wrong here, and I am not saying this to find fault. Please,

kindly ask yourself this question, How is it possible to state, " I

will deal with this issue in an impersonal way " ....when the very

nature of the subject is extremely personal, so much so that many

woman cannot live without their child? How can a man know the grief

and pain and heartache a mother would feel when her child is taken

away? Only if he is extremely mature on an emotional level, having

undergone very deep growth either in this life or previous, will he

be ALLOWED to know this pain. It is not an easy thing for a man to

know the depth of a womans' pain.

 

In the story of Prahlad Maharaj, we learn from the Srimad

Bhagavatam that the demigods had made a decision to arrest the

mother of Prahlad, while he was still in the womb, and when the

child was born, to kill him. Because his father, a terrible demon,

was performing austerities by which to conquer over the demigods,

and the fearful demigods were anxious that the child within the womb

would be an even greater demon. The great sage, Narada Muni,

arrived on the scene, and chastised the fearful demigods,

saying, " Even if you wanted to kill this child, you would not be

able to. He is a great devotee of the Lord " . Narada then took the

mother to his ashram, and constantly uttered Hari Katha, which was

heard by the embryo. When Prahlad was developing as a child, he is

renowned for instructing his school friends to sing the glories of

Lord Krsna, to put devotion before everything.

 

What right do any of us have to say what will be the character of

any given child? Or what will be it's destiny after leaving the

womb of the mother? Certainly, if you walk up to orphan's in the

street, very few will say, " Yes, we would prefer to have died. "

 

You speak of the child within the womb not having a decent father.

This is certainly tragic, but isn't it more tragic for someone to

say, " Child, you should be dead rather than live without the love of

your father " . I personally cannot comprehend this logic. Isn't the

Supreme Lord the father of all? Isn't he able to manifest in so

many, various forms, to help the living entities in this world? I

can speak from personal experience, if the child has one good

parent, either mother or father, they can conquer. They can go on

to achieve wonderful things.

 

There is a statement below, " the questions that would bother me if I

impose my personal agenda of anti-abortion are many … Well, my

dear Prabhu....when did anyone's presentation of defending the

rights of an unborn fetus become " my personal agenda " ? Speaking the

truth, that murder is sinful, is never, never, never going to become

any individual's personal agenda. It is crystal clear who actually

has a personal agenda.

 

What is the point of this forum? For anyone to give their

own " personal agenda " ? No. It is to elucidate, in regard to the

teachings of the ancient scriptures, what is proper conduct for

human beings.

 

I AM NOT ONE TO BLINDLY FOLLOW ANY TEACHINGS. IT IS NOT ONLY IN

AMERICA THAT A WOMAN HAS THE RIGHT TO BE LOVING, TO BE RESPECTED, TO

BE PROUD OF THE CONCEPT OF " I AM A MOTHER'. All women have this

right, and for any man to try to justify a woman killing her child,

is to attempt to strip her of everything that is precious to the

concept of not just a woman, but also that of a mother. What

memories are you speaking of, that she will have if the child is

born? You did not mention the horrendous guilt and memories she

would have after killing her child? Why not mention those alongside

the other.

 

Certainly men these days need to look at their traditional

roles, and what gives SOME of them the sense that women are merely

objects of their pleasure. To those men, my prayers, that you may

somehow become educated...become wise...go beyond your inflated,

pompous ego, and understand that the women of the world who truly

seek to be righteous, to be motherly, to be beautiful.....are what

will save this planet. I do not speak of all " women " .....there are

souls in both categories, of men and women, who are selfish,

destructive to themselves and others, and unable to uplift

themselves. Only our prayers for their benefit.....

 

In concluding, please allow me to examine one last paragraph.....

How correct is it on my part to insist the woman to forget that she

is also a human being entitled equally to liberty of actions and

freedom of thoughts just like me? Is it not that such victims should

be given more freedom to express themselves? … as they truly want?

 

Is this the words of a male " women's libber " ? As they were called

back in the seventies and eighties? Where does " entitled equally

to liberty of action and freedom of thought " enter into the picture

of the life of one who is dedicated to spiritual growth? Whether

male or female, if an individual studies the Gita and other sacred

teachings, even if he/she is not HIndu, still there is acceptance of

a path of religious or proper conduct. One must accept that various

courses of action have to be abandoned. Meat eating is not

conducive to spiritual life. Nor is intoxication, illicit sexual

relations, gambling, or killing of unborn babies. Regardless of how

they entered into the womb. This goes for men, as well as women.

I remember back in 1980, when I was first married, there was an

Indian doctor in Colorado where I was living in my first year of

marriage. He quit his job at the hospital, because he was

instructed to perform an abortion. He could not do it, as he had

some understanding, that, " I am NOT entitled equally to liberty of

action " . His thought was, " I am bound by the teachings of my

superiors, of my culture " . When one desires to grow in love for the

supreme, he or she does not stop thinking, feeling, expressing, but

still there is a narrow path to follow. If one wanders from that

path, he or she will be eaten by the tigers of material enjoyment.

So, suit yourselves, dear readers, if you choose to demand " freedom

of thought " , in the sense that " anything goes " . Karma will continue

to flow, whether we declare we are free of it or not. I can boldly

place my hand in a blazing fire, declaring, " I will not be burnt! "

but guess what? I will be horribly burnt. And that is not blind

religious dogma, it is merely the truth.

 

respectfully submitted, Mahalaksmi DAsi

---------------------------

Nobody likes to abort. But abortion is common these days to prevent

unwanted births due to failure of family planning. To bring religion

into it is silly because otherwise each woman would produce 20

children and the world would come to an end.

 

Hari Shanker Deo

---------------------------

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

We all become despondent like Arjuna over the course of this

spiritual journey, yet if we hear Sri Krishna's message to the

despondent Arjuna, the ultimate victory is only in following dharma,

whether it be rape or any other situation.

 

Human birth is RAREST and BEST form of all births, (1 of 8.4 million

species), and the ONLY birth where salvation is possible, therefore

to destroy at inception ??? We don't know the potential of that

Soul at inception. He / she could become one of the greatest

Saints !! a Mahatma ! and not to even give it a chance? can that

make any sense from a dharmic perspective?

 

To reiterate / summarize Varun Paprunia has stated Swamiji's

response on tough issue such as rape. Please re-read it. To

summarize some key points -

 

1) Rapist will incur terrible sin, and even woman too if she derived

pleasure.

2) Woman who aborts will definitely incur the sin of abortion.

Swamiji goes so far as to say, not to abort even if life of woman is

in danger, therefore aborting after rape is out of the question.

3) If raped women, becomes pregnant, best to give birth, nuture if

possible, if not turn over for adoption.

4) If unmarried becomes pregnant, it is better to bear the

defamation for committed sin than abortion, suicide or running from

home.

 

Swamiji's article " Abortion - Worst of All Sins " pg 990 - Saadhan,

Sudha, Sindhu in Hindi, is a must read for all and any one in this

dilemma. It is on a Video called " Silent Scream " by Dr. Nathenson,

who out of curiosity had take the ultrasound video of the entire

abortion procedure. However after watching that video, neither the

doctor who aborted, nor Dr. Nathenson, ever again returned back to

their clinic. I have the English translation, if there is interest I

could post.

 

Meera Das

Ram Ram

 

---------------------------

 

PRIOR POSTING

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

I have been a member of this group from the past few months

and have been quite influenced by the thoughts expressed by sadhaks.

But I am surprised to see that blame of abortions has been laid only

on the women. I think body of the female is involved but their male

counterparts are also equally responsible for the sin. why the

learned and respected sadhaks are counting sins that will be upon

the female involved in the sin. As I said physical body of the

female is involved and as I have learned form this sat sang only

that body is unreal and nothing it is the soul that is real. I

think the soul of their male counterparts should be equally

responsible for the sin. Can all these learned people who have read

so many scriptures also count the sins that would be upon the males

to discourage them from such acts. I think if the males desist from

misusing female body and are forthcoming in having responsibilities

of the child no woman on earth would like to abort.

 

VANDANA

---------------------------

NOTE: My response had to be lengthy ... pl. wield patience to

examine the same ... Apologies ... Naga.

 

About abortion, its insanity and its sanity

===========================================

 

I am unable to contain myself with this burning social issue on

which enormous confusion is looming around from ages. I decided not

to pursue this further … but, could not help but to get back.

 

There has been considerable debate on the issue of abortion here.

Considerable emotions are thrown in as well. It is good to know that

there are so many souls sensitive enough on the serenity of life.

 

OF COURSE, ABORTION IS A HIDEOUSLY PAINFUL CONCEPT AND A HEINOUS

REALITY TO ANY SANE PERSON.

 

It is not acceptable to me in person as well! The true question here

is, should it not be acceptable at any cost? I have to be pragmatic

and impersonal to address such a grave question.

 

FYI, the burning question is,

 

" Whether a raped woman has right NOT to bear the resultant feutus? "

 

NOT, " Whether abortion is good or not? "

 

I request you all to review your opinions with this in mind. When I

uttered what I did, I put myself in such a woman's position and felt

what it would be like in meditation. If it helps, put yourselves or

your beloved ones in such a position and then think about such

burning questions. Blindly quoting scriptures cannot resolve social

issues. Resonance with the problems with utter transparency can

alone bring resolution to such issues. Therefore, I again urge you

all … put yourselves and/or your beloved ones in such a woman's

condition … and then think. PLEASE.

 

The questions that would bother me if I impose my personal agenda of

anti-abortion are many …

 

How correct is it on my part to insist the woman to forget that she

is also a human being entitled equally to liberty of actions and

freedom of thoughts just like me? Is it not that such victims should

be given more freedom to express themselves? … as they truly want?

 

How correct is it to insist that violation of her core existence is

nothing when compared to some values that I belieive in, whatsoever

it is?

 

Suppose the woman listens and bears the child. She is obviously

tormented by the memory of her violation all through as the feutus

as well as the future child keeps this torment alive by keeping the

memories alive … how can she conduct herself as a mother with joyous

love toward the child when she herself is tormented?

 

How can any value I preach replace her torment? Nobody here seems to

be bothered about what to do the bastard who violated her! All are

throwing stones of religious insistence on the poor woman who is

already suffering from her misfortune!! What difefrence is there

between ones who physically kill such innocent victims with stones

and the ones who are throwing stones of guilt to kill her

psychologically?

 

On the other hand, the child who missed the true love and compassion

of a mother … can my religious insistance take responsibility for

such children's welfare? Can anything, even god, replace the joyous

love of a mother?

 

Suppose the child was born … there is no father … after all, how can

a rapist be a father? Even if he takes such a role, it is worse than

not having one … Have you ever considered the fate of a father-less

child? Can anything such as religion replace a father to a child?

 

What rights do we have to impose motherhood on a woman who is not

ready?

 

What rights do we have to deceive the child off its mother's joyous

love?

 

What rights do we have to dismiss the heavenly affection of a father

to such a child?

 

Afterall, if a child grows in such anarchical circumstances … what

person would it turn out to be? … a depressed vegetable, a synical

contortionist or a cruel criminal … what rights do we have have to

impose such a tax on the rest of the soceity?

 

I have not touched upon many smaller, but yet burningly real, issues

… Who will bear the econmoc burden of supporting the unfortunate

mother and the fatherless child? Who will bear the social burden of

keeping the unfortunate woman and her child happy? Is it worth being

an orphan struggling for a mouthful on the streets? I can not answer

this … an orphan can and should!

 

It is OK … the woman gave birth to a child … what about the rest of

her life? Who will marry her? If not, her whole womanhood is wasted

… in our own terms, it is a bigger sin that she is not bearing

children anymore … unless the religion summons her to keep

reproducing children the same way!!! Should it?

 

After all what use was there by the honourable religion's

intervention in such personal issues? Could it make the woman happy?

Could it make the child happy? Could it contribute to soceity's

health anyway?

 

FINALLY, CAN MY IDEOLOGY OF ANTI-ABORTION SUPERCEDE ALL THE

CONSEQUENTIAL SOCIAL CALAMITIES?

 

Answers to such subtle questions are always circumstantial. The

soceity is ever dynamic and keeps changing its value structure.

Accordingly social solutions should evolve to keep the soceity as

well as its elements in in its healthy dynamic equilibrium.

Reference to scriptures is valuable only if it is interpreted with

the circumstantial sanity in mind. For example, one might have

realized god ... it does not mean that the victim is also god-

realized. One should get into the victim's shoes to experience the

agony and search for the solution there. That requires the thinkers

of the soceity to resonate with the issue. As a spiritual seeker I

accept the highest degree of social responsibility Bhagavan Vyaasa

instructs me with:

 

Yadyadaacharati shreshthastattadev'taro janaah |

Sa yatpramaanam kuru te lokaastadanuvartate ||

 

Because others are probably gullible to just take the advise from

an " apparently intelligent source " … as a spiritual seeker I need to

consider the background of the soceity thoroughly without pushing my

personal ideologies …

 

Therefore … I request you all to put yourselves in the spot,

meditate on the issue ... and, then deliberate. PLEASE.

 

AGAIN, the question is, " Whether a raped woman has right NOT to bear

the resultant feutus? " This question does not raise if she is happy

to bear it on her own.

 

AND, the question is NOT, " Whether abortion is good or not? " –

answer to this is self-evident and does not require further

deliberation.

 

Respects

 

Naga Narayana.

-

 

 

Namaskar!

Personally felt revolted by the question in such a forum. In Gita we

talk of

karmayog. If one has done evil in any one of your even hundred or

thousand lifes

when we were on earth, obviously the same happens by law of Karma

when time is

right by Lord. Even Lord Krishna was not spared of this if one

recalls A bow was

shot on his ankle as some hunter had mistaken him for an animal from

far. The

person concerned was agahast what happened then Lord Krishna pointed

out that

during his incarnation as Lord Ram in earlier Yug he had done the

same to I

think one of the sacred trribe of monkeys , I do not recall exact

name think

ItsSugrir. In fact Lord Krishna was teaching mankind that none is

above law of

karma.In simple lanaguge what one gives comes back to you in some

form or other,

good or bad. That's the spiritual look at the problem From

humanitarian approach

all possible help to be given to victim to come back to normal and

remove the

scars of her traumatic experience, by counselling sessions by lady

doctors over

a period of few months, as the victim me relive it and start

sweating thinking

of it in sleep and scream.

 

If it is woman who is subject to such a heinous crime, she has every

right to

remove the foetus, provided it is before 12 weeks when new life sets

in. Before

that it is a mere lump of body flesh.

 

Request that spiritual things be discussed not such things, as it is

brining

down the level of decorum of Sacred Gita discussions. Nothing will

be gained

spiritually in any way by talking of man's falling moral standards

and brute

like attitude, only change will be we will become lower in

spirtuality. After

all a man is known by company he keeps. Surely there are more better

spiritual

topics than this!! We are nobody to judge others and point fingers

at them, as 4

fingers point back to us. We need to improve ourselves looking at

every

intention of ours like does it havve traced of moha, lobh krodh,

voilence,

rectify oursleves and be fit before we even consider improving

others.

 

Gratitude

 

shirin

 

---------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

 

Jai Hanuman

 

How the " mother " was and how the " mother " has now become - in this

Kaliyuga ! Killing own children ! Indeed - words can't express the

anguish of the soul !! ( Mike Bhaiyya ! I used your words- anguish

of soul !)

 

TU KITNI ACHHI HAI ? TU KITNI BHOLI HAI ? PYAARI PYAARI HAI ! O

MAA ! O MAA !

 

How good are you O Mom ! How docile are you O Mom! Oye Lovely Lovely

Jee ! O Mom ! O Mom!!

 

KI YE JO DUNIYA HAI , YE VAN HAI KAANTO KA , TU FULWAARI HAI ! O

MAA ! O MAA !!

 

That what is this world? This is only a forest of thorns ! You are

mass of flowers in it !! O Mother ! O Mother !!

 

APNA NAHIN TUJHE SUKH DUKH KOI , MAIN MUSKAAYA TU MUSKAAI , MAIN

ROYA TU ROYI !!

 

O Mom! You have no concern for your own pleasures and pains at all !

If I smile , you smile ! If I cry , you cry !!

 

MERE HANSANE PE , MERE RONE PE , TU BALIHAARI HAI ! O MAA , O MAA !!

 

You are ever loving - irrespective of whether I smiled or I cried !

You agree to however I am !! O Mom ! O Mom !!

 

MAA BACHON KI JAAN HOTI HAI ! WOH HOTE HAI KISMAT WALE JINKE MAA

HOTI HAI !!

 

A Mother is the very life force of the child. Fortunate are those ,

whose mother lives long !

 

KITNI SHEETAL HAI, KITNI SUNDAR HAI , NYAARI NYAARI HAI ! O MAA , O

MAA !!

 

How calm ! How adorable !! Always exclusive , super exclusive !! O

Mother ! O Mother !!

 

Hey Daddy the Great ! O Mom !! Kindly save us all from such ghastly

crimes !

 

Agreed, O Binanee S, Jee ! Agreed Vyas NB Jee !! Agreed Mahalaxmi

Maiyyaji !!! Agreed Mira Bahenji !!!! Mike Bhaiyya- sitting with

consort??? - how difficult it can become - when BG 18:32 is

operational?? - for both and each one ? Baba ! Where are we going ?

 

KAHAAN JAA RAHA HAI , TU AIYE JAANE WALE ! ANDHERA HAI MAN KAA DIYA

TO JALALE !!

 

Where are you going O Traveller ? There is darkness all around ! Why

don't you burn the light of " CONSCIENCE " within ?

 

May all understand what is way out of BG 18:32 !!!

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

--------------------------

 

Hari Om

 

Khullarji. Here are some slogans

 

* Silent scream of the fetus - what is my fault O Mummy ? What is my

fault O daddy ?

 

* Don't suck life out of me! Save m ! Save me! Have mercy on me ! I

will bring pleasures in your garden! O mummy - I am your daughter

only!

 

 

* Mera kasoor kya hai ?

 

* O mom ! Please give me birth. My own fate will take care of me

thereafter!

 

* O murderers! You will not even get water in future births what to

talk of food !

 

* O parents ! You enjoyed and I get killed! Is this humanity?

 

* Even a witch leaves at least one house unharmed! Don't kill fetus

in the womb ! Even witches don't do that!

 

* Fetus killing - a frightful disrespect to motherhood !

 

* You want to increase production on one hand and kill producer in

the womb itself- what kind of wisdom is this? What kind of

government is this?

 

* Birth control means converting a female into a prostitute !

 

* Control death first and then think of controlling birth !

 

* Fetus killing is resorted by those who neither believe in

Paramatma, nor in prarbdha (destiny) nor in purushartha!

 

* Getting medical test done, finding female fetus in the womb and

killing ! Is this respect to a woman? Is this a way of giving women

equal rights?

 

* O mothers! Don't lose the power of motherhood for ever! Don't kill

your child! Don't become object of pleasure only for men! Don't

become prostitutes!

 

* Kill fetus and become a non fruit bearing tree forever!

 

* Don't be so merciless O parents ! There will be no one left even

to give you a drop of water in future!

 

* Female fetus killing is the surest method of eliminating mothers

from the planet ! In whose womb you shall sleep in the next birth?

 

* Even bitches, witches and vampires do not kill their own children!

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

 

 

---------------------------

My dandavats to all in this forum...

MY heart breaks when I read the post of Prem Kullar. It is so

terrible that the east has taken up the course of following

activities of the west. I have lived in america my entire life, and

although perhaps I am " privileged " in the sense that I own propety,

car, etc.....I am extremely aware that there is no culture here in

America. No deep rooted traditions, no religious coloring of any

particular faith, and no strong bonds in communities. What little I

could offer in this discussion, is simply WHY? WHY? WHY FOLLOW THE

WEST? Though Sri Krsna's love is everywhere, though daily I

encounter beautiful people with loving hearts, they are suffering so

much in this country. The stress of city life is tremendous.....but

in the country there is no money to be made....(I have done both).

THIS COUNTRY IS DOOMED.....there is very little time left for it due

to its atrocious treatment of the cow, due to abortions, and due to

its policies of usurping and controlling resources of other

nations. WHY, WHY, WHY FOLLOW THE WEST? From the mouth of one

who has lived here my entire life, WAKE UP. I have visited India

twice, both times became completely overwhelmed with love for the

Supreme, to a degree that I am unable to express.....will India give

up all it's accumulated piety to become a hellish pit of

impersonalism and selfishness as the west? I pray not. Again, my

heart aches, what can I say, except all glories to your efforts,

Prem....to stop murder. To open the eyes of those who are blind....

 

In the words of Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta in his purport to bhagavad

Gita, " Those who commit such abominable acts will never see the

light of day again. "

So, the chain of karma will continue.....those killing the fetus

will themselves have to take birth in a womb and be aborted, time

and time again, to pay the price.

 

respectfully,

Mahalaksmi Dasi

------------------------------

Raam ! Raam !! Raam!!!

 

Some slogans for Mr Prem Khullar

 

1. Dont kill me in the womb itself - O mother ! O father ! I

will come with my own fate supporting me in this world !!!

 

2. Efforts of increasing agricultural production and controlling

births is like efforts of increasing milk in mother's breasts and

then not allowing conception !!!

 

3. Oh Mom ! Dear Mom !!! Why I should get killed when you enjoyed ?

 

4. O Father ! O Mother !! Throw me in a dust bin after giving birth!

But don't kill me when i am so helpless !!

 

5. Please! Please save me O parents ! I have capacity to bring

pleasures for you!

 

6. What is my fault? What my fault?? If you don't save me, who

will?

 

7. Even the wildest and the cruelest of animals do not kill their

own children!

 

With sincere Pranaams to all genuine Sadhaks! Shame on those who

advocate such ghastly acts ! SHAME !! SHAME !!!

 

Beenani S.

 

------------------------------

Hari Om

 

Let me now address Khullarji's query.

 

Swamiji used to put up a bill board outside His temporary abode

every where that - Those who have done sin of abortion may please

not bring " bhiksha " for me ! " Bhiksha " - alm of food. Swamiji would

eat food brought by 5 houses every day.

 

In Manusmriti - 4/208 , it is stated that

 

BHROONAN GHAVEKSHITAM CHAIV SANSPRISHTAM CHAAPYUDAKYAYA !

PATATRINA VALEEDHAM CHA SHUNA SANSPRISHTAMEVA CHA !!

 

One should not eat food (1) touched by female in periods (2)

touched by a dog (3) partially eaten by a bird (4) seen by (what to

say " touched by " ) one who ever indulged in abortion !

 

Verse referred by Khullarji is in Parashar Smriti 4/20.

 

YATPAPAM BRAHMA HATYAYA DVIGUNAM GARBHPATNE !

PRAYASHCHITAM NA TASYAATI TASYATYAAGO VIDHIYATE

 

In Brahma Vaivat Purana ( Prakrati Khand, Chapter 2) it is stated

that in the beginning of creation, the basic prakrati ( Shri Radha)

threw her fetus into waters. God immediately cursed her - From now

onwards you will never have a child. Not only that, by your part

whatever " divya " females will get created they also shall be without

a child. Thereafter from the tongue of Basic Nature (Shri Radha) -

Goddess Saraswati incarnated. Later on that Basic Nature got split

into 2 parts. From Left body - Goddess Laxmi incarnated. From Right

body " Radha " incarnated. God also became two. From half left body He

became " Chaturbhuj Vishnu " (Four armed Vishnu) and from right part

He became two armed " Krishna " ! Both Laxmi and Saraswati were

childless. Then from the pours of Krishna countless " Gopas "

incarnated. From pours of Shri Radha countless " Gopis " manifested.

My understanding is that Gopis were infertile, childless !

 

In " Vriddha Suryarun Karma Vipaak " Scripture it is stated:

 

PURVE JANUSHI YA NAARI GARBHA GHAAT KARI HYABHOOT!

GARBHAPAATEN DUKHARTA SAATRA JANMANI JAAYATE !! (477/1)

 

A Lady who had aborted in past lives, suffers in this life on

account of being childless!

 

VANDHYEYA YA MAHABHAAG PRICHHATI SWAM PRAYOJANAM!

GARBHAPAATRATA PURVE JANUSHYATRA PHALAM TVIDAM !!

 

If some Lady asks why she is issueless, infertile in this life?

Answer is due to abortion in the past life. ( 659/1; 856/1; 921/1;

1857/1)

 

GARBHAPATAN PAPADHYA BABHOOV PRAGBHAVEANDAJ !

SAATREVA TEN PAAPEN GARBHESTHERYA NA VINDATI !!

 

O Arun ! One who aborts in prior life, can not bear child in present

life ! ( 1187/1)

 

As simple as that !

 

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

-----------------------------

Woman Power!

by TA Ramesh

 

Without Shakti, Siva cannot do any duty in all the worlds;

Without power, no matter can be active in the Universe;

Without soul, human body cannot survive in the world!

 

Without mother, children cannot grow hale and healthy;

Without wife, husband cannot maintain family and children;

Without woman, man cannot love and live in the world!

 

Beauty, intelligence and love are the aspects of personality

That helps women stand unique in the world;

But, so emotional by nature that it's impossible

For a woman to keep secrets in her heart;

And so, women let the cat out of the bag easily!

 

Hence women show the skeleton kept in the cup-board

Long to anyone who moves them most!

That's why taboos and restrictions imposed on women

Are perhaps rigorous and heartless in many religions,

That are, now, slowly removed by social reforms

By great movement leaders in the modern world.

 

Literature is also full of the Power of Women

As the Main Theme everywhere in the world!

Without the beautiful woman, Helen at the center of the story,

How can Homer's Iliad ever exist in the world?

Without the virtuous woman, Sita in Valmiki's Great Epic,

Ramayana can ever be read so long?

 

Thousands of years, by law and religion,

Women are kept as under-dogs to men;

Women are not just the Weaker Vessels,

Without whose encouraging support

Vessels of Tears won't survive in the world;

Without the knowledge, intelligence and support

Of Woman Power, no family

Can sustain, develop and survive!

 

with regards

Dilip Ravindran

----------------------------

 

PRIOR POSTING

Namaste,

 

Manu's verse ' yatra naaryastu pUjyante ramante tatra devatAh' ( the

gods rejoice/ are happy, where the woman is worshipped) is, I feel,

a powerful message to inculcate respect for women at whichever stage

she may be.

 

Shubhamastu

Anuradha Choudry

------------------------------

-Shree Hari_

 

Clarification: I was reflecting on a place where I once lived long

ago, I was not in poverty but I saw much of it. I would never ever

imply that one should hold a dagger, as it were, at peoples throat,

and demand they follow, rules on their personal behavior , it is the

opposite to what I am. Options can be shown to them, not killing.

 

Many people revert to medicines of some sort or another, for various

conditions, and it often means the death of some organism or other.

In reality many are based on herbs, and a vegetable origin.

In passing my preference is homeopathy.

 

If I get or any person gets bitten by a snake around here, then to

the hospital quick smart, for an antidote, not to is death. (why die

if one can prevent it?)

 

Driven by compassion one would like to see people live life in

comfort and happiness, why not?

 

Yes Divine Feminine 'Shakti', (she is universal), has been suppressed

for thousands of years, and the world has become unbalanced, she has

to sit with her consort once more.

 

My thoughts are exhausted on the subject, I will just read on.

 

With Respect and Divine Love,

 

Mike Keenor

--------------------------------

 

Raam Raam Raam

 

Great Suggestion is that either you dont make efforts to remain

healthy, to cure any illnesses OR we are justified in stopping new

births into this world. Either you control death or we shall control

birth. As simple as that. Why you are taking medicines to cure

fever ? If you are taking medicines, then we shall abort the child.

What shall the child do in this planet? Oh No ! Kill him. Modern

societies cant tolerate this non sense of humans coming on this

planet so fast. Where is the space ? Where is housing for them ? Who

will arrange for their food, water, upkeep, maintenance? How costly

are the living now a days ? We want freedom ! We have come on this

planet, and after applying our minds we have concluded that in

modern societies such non sensical obstacles to sensual pleasures is

unwarranted ! Kill them . Stop them from coming to this world. Now

that we have come into this planet, where is the need for any other?

It is these new arrivals that has made this world so bad, and

unlivable. No , Sorry ! We cant let them enter. Kill the fetus.

Simply kill ! All problems are only because of that only ! Kill the

fetus in the womb itself. Suck the life out of it. Let us enjoy. We

never wanted the child. We just wanted to enjoy the human life. From

where this conception hascome ? Oh , dont worry kill the fetus ! We

are modern, we are not orthodox people. If we dont stop human beings

from coming to this world, then what shall be the difference between

us and animals. Animals mate only when there is season for mating.

They have to exercise restraints and disciplines- not the human

beings. Animals are animals only because they mate only when there

is a season. We are not animals. We are human beings. We shall mate

anytime we want - morning evening, day, night, January, April, June

any time, any month. What a fun ! What an obstacle to this fun is

this conception. That is spoil sport. Kill the fetus. After all we

are privileged, we are intelligent. We can invent devices to kill

them anytime. Science is pretty advanced. Vacuum cleaners. Suck the

life out of that creature. What the fetus thought we are so stupid.

Gone are those old concepts of father, mother, protector ! Non

sense. We have mind, intellect, beautiful body. This conception

is undesirable - a simple nuisance! We have thought over it, all

problems are only because of increase in population. From where the

additional income will come? From where we shall feed the children ?

No ! Not Possible!! Our leaders also say so. Entire economy is in

mess only because of this over population. Enjoy mating, but kill

fetus. Where is the need for child here ? Shall we eat ourselves or

get entangled in arranging food for them ? Are we so stupids ? Come

On ! Either you control death or we shall abort !!! We are modern

humans. Kill the fetus. No arguments. Kill ! If you want to live

peacefully - murder ! Or Control Death !

 

Raam Raam Raam !

 

Beenani S

 

------------------------------

Dear Vipra Bandhavaha, evam itare suhridaha,

We must avoid debates and discussion on which modern educated and so

called Western feminist women will have strong view. It is a pity

that they could destroy what they cannot create. See the ten per

cent of married couples who long and yearn for children and are not

blessed so. Think deeply, do not impose your views on others.

Vriddha Divakarosmi Bhoh.

 

------------------------------

Jai Hanuman

 

People often say if the population is not controlled there will be

shortage of eatables on the planet. This poverty , mal nutrition are

only because of population growth. Hence population control is the

answer for all these menaces confronting humanity. Wrong are they!!

Patently wrong ! Absolutely wrong !

 

Taat Shree ( Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj) said that kind of actions

which so called intelligentia advocate to support population

control, kind of sins which are increasingly getting legalised -

what to say eatables and food grains , one will not even get water

as a result .

 

Oh What a pity Jee ! A human being wants to live comfortably and in

order to do that, he wishes/wants to put obstacles in another human

being, in it's being born ! Is that humanity ? That is how you feel

one can bring happiness, order, harmony, pleasure in human life?

Such arguments are in reality a garbage advanced by power hungry

stupid politians to justify mis-management of existing resources and

mislead. Economics !! Sheer Nonsense !

 

Indeed the intellect can get into the spell of what is stated in BG

18:32. This is Kaliyuga Jee. This is how at the last phase of time

cycle, the humans can become. It will worsen in times to come. Ever

heard the term " cannibalism " ? Humans are heading towards the same.

 

Get liberated Jee, Realise Paramatma, O Dear Sadhaks Jee, as fast

as you can. Future will unfold else the circumstances and scenes

which you will never want to see again. Who have been left?. Those

who from Satyuga, to Treta to Dwapar till today have always set

example of BG 18:32. Most of us are in that zone only. Hurry up

Please Jee!

 

See how do they perceive - Hell with your coming on this planet, we

have come first and now we shall not allow you to come ! We will

enjoy the physical relationship, privilege, without letting you

come in Jee. Don't you know who we are Jee? Humans , Humans ! We

are humans !

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

--------------------------

------------------------------

 

Hari Om

 

I am in perfect agreement with Mahalaxmi Dasi and Mike Keenor. Of

course Mira Dass was immaculate as usual, completely relevant and

absolutely correct. Frankly, I can't say so for most of the views of

Mr Naga Narayana. If he wants as a sadhak to know as to why I feel

so , we can discuss briefly through short notes the reasons thereof.

 

Mike- you are right in most of your observations regarding birth

control pills also. That is not bad. But good is copulation timing

and male condoms. Better is " control " over the very desire and the

Best is mating only for giving birth ! ONLY WITH THAT PURPOSE !!

 

Reply of B Sathyanarainji is 100 percent right. No doubt about

that ! Mahalaxmi Dasi's response is one of the best write ups on the

subject , I have ever read.

 

Certainly Sobhanaji. Shame on the males can only be and rightfully

be attributed by females who are 1000 times more able, better and

powerful than males. All powers arise from female - Goddess

Shakti . All glories and happiness in this world arises out of

Goddess Laxmi- again a female. Mother Nature is a female.. You are

entitled to say so ! Sanatan Dharma is in favour of your entitlement

to do so ! My compliments as a sadhak .

 

Operations of males/females so that there is no conception is

extremely bad act. You get disentitled to perform many rituals and

you don't return to God and atmosphoric airs, what was received by

you - for the reasons best known to you only.

 

I have heard this from elders (don't remember if I read somewhere)

that Goddess Mahalaxmi had aborted a child in some human life. Even

after having Lord Naraina (Lord Vishnu) as her husband, she could

never become mother again. As simple as that !!

 

How a man is a man, if he has no powers to become father, has no

reproductive capacity ? Just How? How a woman is a woman if she has

no powers to become mother, has no reproductive capacity ? Just how?

 

But Mike , I really could not understand any relevance of your

reference of over population at the near by place. Really ! If you

mean to say that over population is not desirable and must be

controlled by any one , then I beg to differ with you. We can have a

deliberation on this. Divine deliberation ! Real Satsanga !! Example

setting form of satsanga !

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

----------------------------

 

I agree with you Shobhnaji, thousand percent. Shame on us to keep

treating the women folk with deep rooted disrespect.

 

To others, this is a social issue. And hence does not befit this

forum. Therefore, I desist to respond to the other queries

raised ... Mahabharata and Bhagavadgita are as useful to the society

as to a spiritual aspirant. But … that needs a different forum.

Therefore, let me be brief ...

 

To Dasiji, Vyaasji, Mike and others who have commented on the

feutus's freedom to take life … my question is regarding the freedom

of the person living. Our poor brothern in India has paid heavily on

the rape, violation and enslavement for more than a millenium thanks

to the wrongly preached spiritual values in social life. Again, the

problem is not in the great spiritual values … but, in the

preaching. Bhagavan Vyaasa warns sternly … Na buddhidhedam janayet …

never preach these values … they are only for seekers. Because,

those who do not understand the depth of concepts such as Ahimsa

(non-violence) and Shaanti (peace) would let their natural cowardice

reign their lives. It is the responsibility of a saint to

acknowledge that the world cannot be saintly. Whoever tried to

spread sainthood in the history has achieved nothing but social

fragmentation … sainthood never appeared in humanity so far.

Therefore, if at all spirituality helps, it should let the humans be

just humans first from social perspective.

 

Dasiji feels that the death is not a Godly act while birth is a

Godly act. If their exists a devil against the God, I can only pity

such appreciation of God. Good and bad are our creation in our

illusions. Just because we love birth and hate death, we cannot

project the same ignorance on God. Birth and death are both God's

gifts to us. We should treat both the same way with absolute

respect. If we cannot, at least we should not wield hypocracy to

suit our beliefs.

 

God is not their to protect anybody but has provided everything to

do so oneself. Krishna never fights ... Arjuna has to. If God " had

to " protect, he would have protected the violation of freedom of a

woman in the first place. One who suffers has all the right to

respond to one's own suffering in one's own way. Spirituality cannot

trespass its compassion to preach either way. Such judgment will be

as lopsided as of the Bramhin who tried to interfere with an eagle's

attempt to eat its food, a snake.

 

Vyasji has quoted Karna … the goodness captive in the bad … nothing

but a slave to the bad … committed to serve the bad till death. What

is the use of such goodness? In fact, more harmful to the society!

 

Again, the society should be The Bhima who pulls out the heart of

the beastly violaters enroute. Incidentally, he does not need

Krishna's intervention because Krishna's approval is inherent in all

his actions.

 

Respects.

 

Naga Narayana

 

---------------------------

Namaste

 

DAADU DUNIYA BAAWARI , FIKAR KARE GELI !

ROTI DESI RAMJEE, DOPAARA PELI !!

 

Said Sage Daaduji

 

Mad has gone this world ! Absolutely crazy. It is worrying

unnecessarily out of stupidity. God will provide meals to you before

noon time.

 

Mr Naga Narayana - Worry not ! There is one creator, preserver and

destroyer , called, Paramatma ( Ever heard this name?) who will take

care through Mother Nature about birth, death, fame, illfame,

happiness and sorrow.

 

Said Sage Vashishtha to Bharatji

 

AHO BHARAT BHAAVI PRABAL, BILAKH KAHAT MUNIRAAJ !

HAANI LAABH JEEVAN MARAN, JAS APJAS VIDHI HAATH !!

 

O Bharat ! Destiny is very powerful. Profit, Loss, Death, Birth,

Fame and Ill fame are controlled by Destiny only.

 

Stop giving reasons. Simply dont disturb the Laws of Nature . You

have no rights to do that. What if our fathers also thought in the

similar manner? How we would have been able to become humans then?

Dont we run to a doctor if urine stops ? We are that weak ! Why

should we take responsibility of Creator on our weak shoulders?

Stupidity is that- Isnt it ?

 

HAM EK KHILONE HAIN, EK AISE KHILAADI KE !

JISKO ABHI SADIYON TAK YEH KHEL RACHAANA HAI !!

 

We are toys in the hands of that player, who is yet to continue this

world for centuries and centuries.

 

Chesta Vinod

-----------------------------

Priya Sadhaks

 

Sobhanaji has indeed expressed herself naturally and therefore

powerfully. But only in writing " Shame on you all " ! On balance

there was nothing .

 

Madam ! None is bad here!! Change the vision and you shall start

seeing the ultimate good here ! Try it !

 

Why inflict any shame on any one?

 

At the lotus feet of all of you and of Paramatma

 

MM Purohit

 

 

===============================================================

 

PRIOR POSTING

My dandavats to all in this forum....

 

In regard to the concept of taking pills to prolong health being

" hypocritical " if one is against pills to stop birth......I am

shocked that one with knowledge would dare equate the two concepts.

Doesn't the Supreme Lord appear as Dhanvantari, to give knowledge of

herbs to help human beings? Where is there any reference where the

Supreme Lord would say, " yes, abort this child " ? Anyone can say

anything, but one must analyze according to scripture, if he or she

is to truly benefit the cause of humanity.

Also, I believe it is a myth that there is overpopulation. I

truly believe that mother Bhumi can expand her form, if needed, she

is alive....she is not dead matter. The problem today is

mismanagement of the resources. In the time of Prthu Maharaj,

another incarnation of the Lord mentioned in the Srimad Bhagavatm,

mother earth also withheld fruits and vegetables and grains, as there

was so little sacrifice in the human hearts taking place. On the

threat of Prthu Maharaj, she agreed to produce abundantly. Are

there those who think these stories are simply folk lore?

Again, anyone can say anything, but the laws of material nature

will act, regardless. If I say that the sun will rise in the west,

I can say it every day til I leave this world, but will it happen?

No, it will not. I cannot change the laws of nature. Killing is

sinful, attempting to prevent a soul from entering a womb using any

birth control is sinful, and reactions will come whether one

believes or not. This is the law of karma. Otherwise, if this were

not true, it would stand to reason that there is nothing wrong with

unlimited illicit sexual activity. Yes, just use birth control,

have abortions, enjoy your body all you choose...IS THERE ANYONE WHO

CAN SUPPORT THIS TYPE OF MENTALITY FROM A RELIGIOUS OR DEVOTION TO

GOD STAND-POINT? I don't believe it is possible.

Also, it may be true that the perpetrator of rape is a

rascal....but a woman cannot justify her act of murdering an unborn

child merely because a male chose to act sinfully. The two sins do

not balance each other out. Women must return to their role of

being protectors of society, of righteousness...with no " attitude "

of hatred toward the ignorance of males, otherwise the love and grace

of Laksmi will never again flow abundantly on this planet.

The " blame game " should not be for those of saintly character.

 

Respectfully submitted,

Mahalaksmmi Dasi

-------------------------------

-Shree Hari-

I found the comments by Naga Narayana and Meera Das absorbing, the

full spectrum as it were.

OK there was a program on TV here, that showed an abortion, not

simulated, the real thing, the apparatus used was a sort of vacuum

device the sucked the life from the womb.

As I watched this, I experienced something unusual, I had no

emotions, it was as if I were stone, no anger no horror, I was in the

presence of demonic evil, somehow my emotions retreated, my defenses

were up, sometimes evil can be so great it seems, that words and

reactions have no place.

What I saw, I never want to see again,.

Preventing conception, is not killing of life, there is timing of

copulation, condoms, barriers, and birth control pills; they do not

abort, I personally think that the birth control pill may have

dangers, as it interferes with normal bodily functions.

However if the pill prevents the resort to abortion, then so be it.

If a woman is raped, the fetus is not the intruder, the brute who

raped her is. Punish him by the full force of the law, not the fetus.

(I understand in some countries, it's almost impossible to be charged

with rape, and the victims can be punished, how terrible!)

 

I have personally witnessed, the stinking mire that over population,

poverty, animals and humans living in close proximity, the over

powering smell of camels, goats , and sewage, and what it does to

people.

 

So on the subject of abortion, I see strength in Meera Das point of

view, and on birth control, I think Naga Narayana, has sound

arguments.

 

With Respect and Divine Love.

 

Mike Keenor

------------------------------

What about the karma of the men who rape? All the views expressed

here do not take into account that women are human beings, have

feelings and have the right to perhaps cleanse themselves of the

sins committed by men. Abortion is the only way to cleanse such sin

committed by men, who are " protectors " and hide behind religious

views.

 

Shame on all of you.

Shobhna S. Kumar

-------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Hari Om

 

Under no circumstance, even if the circumstance is life

threatening - the sin of abortion should not be done.

Any happenning in our life is outcome of our own karma meted out by

God's laws through nature. Law of Karma is precise and accurate in

its operation.

 

Every incidence has kripa (benevolence) of God hidden in it. Every

adverse incident provides you an opportunity to get closer to God by

right conduct and right utilisation of given circumstance. The human

birth has not been given for petty comforts and worldly pleasures.

It is a challenging, sadhan ( striving for God Realisation) form of

life. The austerity resulting from given adverse circumstances is

God sent/willed as per our own prior deeds.One must take such God

sent austerities as an opportunity for spiritual advancement. One

must perceive the human life as a special form of life- not to enjoy

worldly pleasures but to happily do one's duty without caring for

one's right and another's duty. Job is already on hand, of giving

birth to the innocent child, the duty is already on hand. The

aggrieved should take it so, give birth to the child, and thereafter

she may handover the child to orphanage etc.

 

One must be " careful in " doing " , and happy in " happening "

(result) " . No circumstance can force you to commit new sins.

 

Sanatan Dharma Scriptures deal with every type of circumstance.

Similar circumstance was faced by Kunti also. Kunti was mother of

Karna conceived when she was unmarried through Sun. She gave birth

to the child and silently surrendered the child to the mother

nature. Karna went on to be a part of history forever. Karna earned

admiration of all , including from Lord Krishna. He was one of the

greatest philanthropist the Indian soil has ever produced. He

redefined the art of giving/donating/ renunciation. He was " tyaag

murti " . Karna was the eldest son of Kunti- elder than

Yuddhister/Bhim/Arjuna/Nakul/Sahdev.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

--------------------------

HELLO SIR,

Your own conscience is the best guide. follow it. In so doing see

that your action does not harm the other person. Follow the maxim "

do unto others what you expect from others " That's what the Mahatma

Gandhi said, " I look to my inner self for guidance when I am in

trouble " . So said Lord Buddha too.

Ramachander Homma

--------------------------

Dear Sadaks,

If a lady conceives, it is not her wish or effort. Many women even

after marriage do not concieve. Why? The child to be born is

predecided by the Karma of that soul. In certain cases the child

gets aborted naturally, which is no way connected with anybody or

Sin.

But to abort a child is wrong. The cause is abortion and the effect

is the lady who aborted the child, will have rebirth as lady who

will have no issues (children). This lady who aborted can even be a

tree in her next birth, where the tree does not yield fruits. The

rebirth depends on once Paapas (sins) and Puniyas (virtues).

Referance Garbopanashid.

B.Sathyanarayan

--------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

I resonate totally with the views expressed by Naga Narayanji on

this subject.

No action in itself is right or wrong without regard to

circumstances surrounding it.

An action such as abortion may be right in one set of circumstances

and wrong in another set of circumstances. In otherwords, actions

are not inherently right or wrong.

There are many examples in daily life where we can see this to be

true.

I think that right action comes to one who is steadfast on the path

of righteousness (dharma), and seeks all decisions from the Totality

of Being(THAT) and never as an individual! In such cases interest of

all parties involved in actions are duly considered by THAT. Such

actions are God taking actions through people for people.

Namaskaras........Pratap Bhatt

 

--------------------------

 

PRIOR POSTING

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

As our scriptures says - if we believe that we are the Atma (Soul,

Spirit, Individual Consciousness), and if we also believe that human

life is the rarest form of birth (1 of 8.4 million species in this

Universe), and that only in this human form of life, one can attain

freedom from all bondages, one can realize their true nature, one

can attain salvation, one can realize eternal bliss, one can develop

love of God… etc., then common sense says that what Swamiji says is

without any doubt to be accepted - i.e. we have no right to stop

the evolution of a Soul, by creating roadblocks in it's evolution

cycle. This roadblock that we place on another souls' progress, to

not allow it an opportunity for salvation, will definitely have it's

consequences and is a grave sin. Most of the times, we sin due to

desire for our own happiness, self protection, comforts, betterment,

selfish reasons, and if we look at it from that perspective, also

the reason for abortions are also mostly for the same reasons, for a

little convenience and happiness, we are destroying another life,

and not allowing it to be born as a human, a soul that could have

realized the Self / God, and attain salvation etc.

 

Swamiji has said it is briefly addressed in Gita, under demoniac

tendencies. Gita 16:9 " Prabhavantyu grakarmaanah kshayaaya

jagatohitaah. " " Not believing in the eternal soul, the demoniac

natured appear as enemies of the world, for its destruction. " Gita

16:9

Unknowingly we destroy and kill helpless lives, and are hoping the

we will be benefited. How can we be benefited? How can we attain

salvation?

" Jaan-jaanker mook, asamarth jivon ki hatyaa karte ho aur caahete ho

ki hamaaraa bhallaa ho jaaye; kaise ho jaayegaa? kalyaan kaise ho

jaayegaa ?

 

For their selfish motives, such demoniac people indulge in violence,

murder and usurpation etc., without thinking of the pain, which they

inflict upon others.

" Dharmasarvasva suno, aur sunker dhaaran kar lo. Jo aacharan apnese

pratikool ho, usko dusero ke prati mat karo. "

 

Looking at a broader more Universal perspective, who truly takes

care of the 8.4 millions species? Do we? What arrogance to think

that we alone have the right and the burden of responsibility for

that conceived fetus? In many countries, one has to wait for years

and pay a huge amount, to adopt a child. Our ego and selfishness is

causing us to not give this opportunity to another soul and to

instead sin.

 

Not only that, many women who visited Swamiji after having undergone

several abortions, found their bodies to be significantly weakened,

undergoing several irreversible health problems. (I am truly

unaware of the medical and health implications, as this is based

only on experiences / problems that women shared with Swamiji).

 

After listening to Swamiji / reading his thoughts from books for a

number of years, after listening to the way He responded to question

and answers, there was never a question that he could not answer to

one's satisfaction. He had thought about everything he shared,

deeply for a long time, before he even uttered a word or stated

something firmly. In my opinion, Swamiji and all the major

religions of the world that believe in pro-life cannot be wrong!

 

Hope this helps.

Meera Das

Ram Ram

-------------------------------

Sanity and Sanctity of Birth-Control and Abortion

 

Many religions are committed to the propaganda of the idea of anti-

abortion and anti-birth-control strongly even in the so-called

advanced societies such as West. I strongly advocate that this is an

extremely lopsided vision from both social as well as natural

persepctives. By the way, spirituality has nothing to do with it!

 

We hear a lot like " birth is God's Grace and hence we should not

intefere; any such intereference is the greed, selfishness and

arrogance of humans against God's Grace " . I agree with it completely

ONLY IF it is also appreciated in tandem that " death is also God's

Grace and hence we should not interfere with that as well " . Death is

part of the creation as much as the birth. Is it OK to exercise our

ego to interfere with THAT when we are trying all we could do to

avoid/postpone the death? Isn't it the same greed and arrogance in

action in this case as well? Are we not disgracing ourselves by not

believing God's will in our death??

 

My suggestion to the birth-promoters is, " do not take a single pill

to interfere with God's will in the deseases, aging as well as in

death. Then, you are entitled to claim that one should not

interefere with God's will. " Taking all medicinal help to promote

our survival rate and life span on one hand and rejecting the same

for birth control on the other hand is hypocracy. Such attitude is

utterly (1) anti-nature resulting in lopsided population growth of

one single species on this earth; and (2) anti-society resulting in

undue stress of life demands overwhelming the resources. As far as

death control is excercised, one should allow the birth control to

balance the act in any soceity. That is social sanity and that is

natural sanctity.

 

Again, promoting one's material life on this earth is not at all the

agenda of Bhagavad Gita. The agenda is to cleanse the life we have

already taken … to learn how to live it well and how to leave it as

well. That does not remove any of our social responsibilities and

natural obligations. One can get liberated from the social

responsibilities by accepting the nature – birth and death alike. On

the other hand, one cannot get liberated from the natural

obligations till one lives.

 

Also, abusing the spiritual texts for social promotion is incorrect

and can lead to become frantically religious and religiously

fanatic. Bhagavaan Vyaasa advocates to never preach spirituality to

one who cannot appreciate it for one with half-baked knowledge will

lead to natural catastrophies such as population explosion which

eventually culminates in social catastrophies such as wars.

 

Na buddhibhedam janayet agnyaanaam karmasanginaam |

Joshayet sarva karmaani vidvaanyuktassamaacharan ||

 

For social issues such as abortion one should adapt common sense and

social awareness that reflects the circumstantial reality. If the

woman is forced to bear a feutus against her will, she has all the

rights to terminate the same. I request the same preachers to catch

hold of the male beasts that cause such distress in the fisrt place

and terminate them instead. Nobody has any right to interfere in

this matter when one cannot share the burden of the socio-economical

implications let alone the physio-psychological distress imposed

upon the victim. Why should an innocent woman suffer because of a

beastly male? Society should be The Bhima who pulls out the heart of

such beasts enroute. Incidentally, he does not need Krishna's

intervention because Krishna's approval is inherent in all his

actions.

 

Respects.

 

Naga Narayana

------------------------------

Dear Sir ,

 

You mentioned the shloka:

" Yat paapam brahmahattyaa dvigunam garbhapaatane; Praayashchitam ne

tasyaasti tatsyaasyaago vidhiyate " (Parasharsmriti 4:20).

 

Please let me know if you know any more details about this Shloka.

 

I am planning to put up boards with slogan in the villages with this

verse picture of Lord Krishna and Radha and duly translated thus :

 

BRUNE HATYA JO KARE HOGA MAHAAPAP

VIDHATA KA USSKO LAGEGA BHANKAR SHRAAP.

 

Any idea of better slogan? or any other thoughts on this?

 

Prem Khullar

-------------------------------

 

PRIOR POSTING

Hare Krishna

 

Answer to Question 1

 

Prashantji, I am pasting the answer of your question from Swamiji's

book " Sadhan-Sudha-Sindhu " page 960.

 

Q. If it becomes compulsory for woman to abort the baby due to an

infection, then what should she do?

 

A. She will definitely incur the sin of abortion. For protecting

woman people abort the baby but this should not be done. What has to

happen will indeed happen. If the woman has to die then even after

abortion she will die. If she is destined to live longer then she

will not die even if she chooses not to abort. Whatever may be the

cause of death, it will only arrive when the time is up. So abortion

should never be done.

 

Q. Should abortion be carried out in case an unmarried woman becomes

pregnant?

 

A. That boy and girl should marry who had pre-marital sex. If the

marriage is not possible then also abortion should not be done. The

girl should nurture that child and give him/her to an orphanage or

give it to someone who wants to adopt a child.

 

If a woman is raped then the rapist will incur terrible sin. If the

woman has derived pleasure from that then she will also incur sin.

All sins emanate from sensual desire. So the amount of sin will be

in direct proportion with the pleasure derived by that woman. If the

woman did not take any pleasure then she will not incur sin.

 

If an unmarried woman is pregnant then her parents will also incur

sin for their carelessness. It is a must for parents that they take

utmost care of their daughter and not give her excessive

independence.

 

Q. If society comes to know about it then she will become infamous

and no one will marry her?

 

A. After committing sin one has to bear defamation. Abortion,

suicide and running from home. In comparison to these three sins,

it's better to bear the defamation. If no one is willing to marry

her then she should reside in her father's house and spend her life

in worshipping God. This will be penance for her which will destroy

her sins.

 

Q. If a married woman is raped and she becomes pregnant then what

should be done?

 

A. It is better for her to be quiet. If husband comes to know about

it then he should also remain quiet. The couple's slience is best

for them. In reality, one should always be attentive from the

beginning so that such kind of situations do not arise. My

suggestion is not for abortion because it is an ultimate sin

(MahaPaap).

 

Answer to Question 2

 

Shri Khullarji, you are indeed doing great social service by

rescuing women from committing sins like abortion etc. This society

needs people like you.

 

Gita doesn't specifically mention about abortion. It strikes the

root of sin i.e. desire and God has spoken at length on it. Read

Gita (3-36, 37 and 16-21, 23, 24)

 

Premji, Gitapress has published 2 books.

 

Matrishakti Ka Ghor Apman (Code 420)

Desh Ki Vartaman Dash Aur Uska Parinam (Code 617)

Check the details at www.gitapress.org. You can use these 2 books

for your purpose.

 

These 2 books are also included in a 1000 page book Sadhan-Sudha-

Sindhu (Code 465). It is a compilation of more than 40 books of

Swamiji's teachings.

 

Thanks,

 

Hare Krishna

Varun P. Paprunia

-------------------------------

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

From Gita Talk Moderator:

 

" Sadhan, Sudha, Sindhu " in Hindi by Swami Ramsukhdasji, can be

viewed online for free at:

 

http://www.swamiramsukhdasji.org/swamijibooks/pustak/pustak1/html/sad

hansudhasindhu/main.html

Ram Ram

 

-------------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, This passage has moved me deeply. One should still

think about the fact that abortion is wrong. Firstly when a woman or

a man, yes a man can be raped by a woman for his seed. QUESTION 1:

If raped, the fact is the baby formed is not at fault. One does not

have the right to kill a child just because of that fact.

What would be such a case when rape occurs and the child is aborted?

your comments please. Prashanth

---------------------

Dear Sir I read the SADAK dt 26 september 2008 regularly . I read

the following verse in your letter dated 27/09/08.

QUESTION 2: In the Paaraashersmriti - " Yat paapam brahmahattyaa

dvigunam garbhapaatane; Praayashchitam ne tasyaasti tatsyaasyaago

vidhiyate " Can you correctly guide me as to where do I find this

writing below, also does Gita make any reference to this? I wish to

quote it in my meetings in the villages against the female feticide.

(aborting female fetus)

thanks, Kindly do clarify and oblige,

prem khullar

-------------------------------

ADDITIONAL QUERY:

 

Do any of you have any more details on this shloka from Paaraasher

Smriti - " Yat paapam brahmahattyaa dvigunam garbhapaatane;

Praayashchitam ne tasyaasti tatsyaasyaago vidhiyate " . Kindly let me

know any other scriptures where abortion is mentioned as sinful.

Gita shloka does not clearly point to abortion per se. The source

is important, therefore do provide it, along with the quote /

shloka.

 

I am in process of creating slogans for big display boards for

villages and cities of Haryana where female feticide is spreading

like wild fire. Please suggest good slogan ! Please help

immediately.

Sincerely - Prem Khullar.

--------------------------------

 

:Shree Hari:

Ram Ram

 

26th September, 2008, Friday

Ashwin Krishna Dvaadashi, Vikram Samvat 2065, Shukravar

 

" Mana jaane sab baat, jaan boojh avaguna kare

kyon chaahat kusalaat, ker deepak koonye pade. "

 

At present times such terrible and fearsome sins are taking place,

that simply by listening, one's hair stands on ends, eyes become

filled with tears, and heart is deeply moved ! Ram Ram Ram, what

terrible unjustice, what fearsome sins are taking place, but your

attention is not going there at all ! Human body is said to be the

rarest of all all forms of life -

" Durlabho maanushyo deho dehinaam shunabhangurah " (Srimad Bhagavat

11:2:29)

" Labdhvaa sudurlabhmidam bahusambhvaante,

maanushyamarthdamnityampeeh dheerah " (Srimad Bhagavat 11:9:29)

" bade bhaag maanushya tanu paava. Sur durlabh sab granthnhi

gaava. " (Manas 7:43:7)

 

Such a rare human body, is being destroyed at the very beginning.

It is being cut up along with the jeev, and this is such a great

offense, it is such injustice, it is a terrible sin! My mind feels

immense pain, it is feeling great distress, but what to do! The

human body by which one can realize God, to not allow that human

body to even be born, and to destroy it, it is the ultimate sin !

To not allow some soul the opportunity to receive a human body, to

not allow that human body to even be born, to take medication from

the beginning and destroy it, through abortion or any other means.

One has stooped so low - not only to think about going to hell

themselves, but at the same time not even allowing another soul the

opportunity for upliftment, for benediction ! Now what is one to

do? Who to share this with? And who will listen to my point? Is

there no one listening ?

 

For ascetics it has been written in the scriptures to not travel

much during " Chaturmaas " (four months in a year during the rains).

Because during these month, due to the rains, every seed grows into

a sappling, which later grows into a tree. By extensive traveling,

walking, these seedlings come under the feet and are destroyed.

Therefore during this four month period, the ascetics do not walk

and roam around much, so that unknowingly no violence is done to any

life form. In Bhagavat it has been said, that if you wish to gain

victory over violence, then reduce the movement of the body -

" hinsaa kaayaadhyaneehayaa. " (Bhagavat 7:15:23). When there is

so much thought put into non-violence around immovable things, then

what to speak on the subject of movable beings? But nowadays, the

best of all movable life forms, better than even the devatas, the

human body, is being contemplated for destruction, what a state of

affairs we are in ! (to be continued)

 

From " Saadhan, Sudhaa, Sindhu " pg 946 in Hindi by Swami Ramsukhdasji

 

For full online discourses in Hindi, please visit Swami

Ramsukhdasji's website. http://www.swamiramsukhdasji.org

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Re: Frightful Disrespect to Power of Motherhood

 

 

QUESTION 1: If raped, the fact is the baby formed is not at fault.

One does not have the right to kill a child just because of that

fact. What would be such a case when rape occurs and the child is

aborted?

QUESTION 2: Paaraashersmriti - " Yat paapam brahmahattyaa

dvigunam garbhapaatane; Praayashchitam ne tasyaasti tatsyaasyaago

vidhiyate " – where to find this reference?

QUESTION 3: Does Gita make any reference to abortion?

QUESTION 4: Please provide helpful slogans for Bill-boards.

QUESTION 5: Please also elaborate on sins accumulated by males

responsible for the rape?

 

--------------------------------

 

NEW POSTING

 

Namaste

 

The message of Minakshi was soul touching. Of course only the wearer

knows where the shoe pinches. But that is how the world is. That is

how our duties in the world are. Who is happy? Each species has its

own struggles, own austerities and own roles. We females also have

our roles cut out for us. Better always to forbear ! Indeed a mom

would never opt for abortion ! But a female may have to ( Sorry If I

am offending Mr Naga, because his kind self has granted exemption

only to mother and never to any other.

 

Fajeeti Rani

-----------------------------

 

Hari Om

 

I liked indeed the counter response of Meenakshiji. This site is

getting more and more Divine every passing day ! And Right you are,

word by word ! Conceptually too and right you are spiritually too !

The world indeed is turning from bad to worse ( strangers are never

world, they are God- most of the time! Real world for each of us

is " family and friends " - those whom we consider as " me / mine " ).

 

But there lies the challenge ! There lies the acid test ! There lies

one of the millions of reasons why the human life is called " a

sadhan yoni " / " a karma (duty) yoni " / " a yoga yoni " and not

a " bhoga yoni " .

 

God Bless you ! Indeed females are infinite times superior to

males ! No doubt on that! My Pranaams to you!

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

 

 

PRIOR POSTING

-Shree Hari-

 

I thought I would sit this thread out after my last comment, I did

however read through the comments thus far, and did a little

research.

The idea that abortion is some kind of import from the west does not

hold up.

It is ancient, it existed in Ayurveda/Atharva Veda practice .

Ancient Greeks had herbs they used.

And Spartans destroyed imperfect babies.

Infanticide/abortion can be found all over the world and throughout

history.

So I do believe, that looking for a 'fall guy', 'out there', is

looking in the wrong place.

Now if one believes abortion is OK, I suggest you do the following:

On

the web go to, 'Aborted Fetus Photos', go and look at the 'Gallery

of

Hell'. (By the way Mahalaksmiji the silent scream is also there, I

did not view it). Look deep and long, (if one has the stomach for it,

I haven't ).

Ask oneself, " does Paramatma want this? " .

 

Then consider the words of Sri Krishna below:

 

BG: 16.8 Those of demonic nature know

Not what to do or refrain from;

Purity is not found in them,

Nor is good conduct, nor is truth. (7)

" The universe is without truth,

Without a basis, without God,

Produced by mutual union,

With lust for cause–what else? " say they. (8)

Holding this view, these ruined souls

Small-minded and of cruel deeds

Arise as the enemies of

The world, bent on its destruction. (9)

 

Still think it is OK? Well, so be it.

 

With Respect and Divine Love,

Mike Keenor

------------------------------

 

Hari Om

 

The question of Prof Ramanujam is certainly one of the best counter

questions on this an otherwise very difficult and ticklish issue of

rape followed by abortion. Though I may not exactly fit in the

yardsticks prescribed by Professor, but I believe that I am a

scholar of Sanatan Dharma and definitely a sadhak, hence I am daring

to respond.

 

Professor ! There is not a solitary or single karma here. There are

two independent karmas. In one karma, the male is karta (doer) .

There the lady is not at all a karta. She in fact reaped the result

of her past deeds by getting humiliated. Only a karta can be bhokta –

it is divine law and justice. There is no point arguing on this-

both of us have to believe in a Super Power, His Laws and His

Justice. Hence in the karma of rape, no sin has been incurred by the

aggrieved provided she did not derive any pleasure out of it.

Conception is the result of her own karmas in fact, though, directly

it appears to be emanating out of rape. It is also possible that in

an another similar case that another lady does not conceive – Is not

it, Professor ? Hence after the rape whether she conceives or she

does not conceive is an independent thing altogether- inspite of

crime of rape being there ( though it may so look generally). It

is a separate " result " for her. Rape was a fresh karma of the brute

male- not for the lady. She comes out " sinless " out of the cruelty-

though she suffered humiliation. It is established principle of Law

of Karma that only the doer suffers the good or bad results- no one

else. Now once the rape has taken place one Karma is over.

 

But the lady has conceived. She could or could not have conceived.

That she conceived, is the " result " of her own past karmas. Had her

past karmas been better, she could not have conceived ! Now the

characters have changed. Now there is one lady and another an

innocent fetus. That fetus has not done any sin or has not

participated in the cruelty. What the lady should do? Should she

kill the fetus or she should give birth, and handover for adoption

or do the austerity of nurturing the child, believing it to be a

gift of God and live the human life? I believe in what Swamiji

stated in this regard. I believe in what Vedic Scriptures state in

this regard. I believe that human life has not been given to you for

enjoyment or suffering. I believe that it is a " karma

yoni " / " sadhan yoni " / " yoga yoni " and not " bhoga yoni " . It is a

challenging form of life. It is " dukhalayam " (Abode of sorrow) and

the " sahaj sukhraasi " (naturally blissful soul) has to play

his/her role here doing his/her duties only - so that he/she may

get his/her natural self. What is wrong in so believing, so acting

and so perceiving? Which Laws of Nature or humanity or God get

contravened if I believe so, conduct so and act so? But can the same

thing be said, if lady aborts ?

 

Put your hand on your heart and reply ! What if the father dies on

day 1 after lady conceives? What if lady trusted a male, and male

cheated her? What rights she has to kill an innocent soul? Can a

doctor be given liberty of killing merely because he has power of

saving life? There may be thousands of permutation / combinations

possible in the " results " meted out by the operation of Law of

Karma ! A mother has to under go many acid tests. Scriptures are

full of the instances of sacrifices which a mother makes to preserve

her child ! This is one of the many many such sacrifices. To be

mother is not easy ! No mother can be called a mother, if she is not

preserver of her child. NO WAY !

 

Please come back , should you need further laboration/clarification.

May I also take the liberty of requesting you to continue

contributing for benefit of us all in the deliberations of this

divine, selfless web site ?

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

--

 

Dear Shri Vyas,

 

By not being " overt " that was precisely the point I was making- that

a mother, under norml circumstances WILL NOT choose abortion.

However, as you yourself have mentioned, there are

several " aberrations " under which such a thing is possible. And,

yes, I do believe the Janani has the right to be the Harani too.

Again here, if the mother is not under any unusual stress, then her

chances of being a harani is impossible. However, modern life,

specially the move from the spiritual to the material plane has made

many people extremely stressed, causing them to make inappropriate

choices that add up to huge karma packets.

 

This planet, by its very nature is PRO_Life- in all of the solar

system, only this one subtends life. That itself makes a statement,

if you will. Over and above this, if we are still fighting for what

is " right " and " wrong " , I believe there is no answer as this is not

about right or wrong, it is about the prakrithi of this world itself.

 

Bottomline: when we support people who are stressed in a social

manner, we can prevent them from making such " anti-life " choices.

For all the " talk " anyone does, no one actually 'sits " and " holds "

the hand of the woman who has been asurically raped and left to fend

for herself with a fetus growing within her- all the more her own

famly and friends. Please correct me if I am wrong. The " chastity "

of girls still has social value in our country and it say otherwise

or say that we are so open minded to accept the tragedy and continue

as usual is rubbish.

 

Why do you think that only the " mother " makes the choice of

abortion? It is not uncommon for the " family " to decide thus to

avoid 'social stigma " . You are right- a MOTHER will never agree to

an abortion. But a depressed woman will.

 

Sincerely,

Meenakshi Srinivasan

-------------------------------

Namaste

 

Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj once said that if you see evil in

others, there is a guarantee that the same evil is definitely

existing in you.

 

Each sadhak has replied point by point to the views where they

differed in opinion. See responses by Meera Das, Mahalaxmi, Varun

Paprunia and Vyas N B. There is nothing wrong in differing on such

forums. That in fact is the motive of this forum.

 

Mother ! Where is the question of a lady becoming mother at all when

she aborts ? When does she become mother ? Please reread all

messages and related issues and discussions on every point before

responding. Are there specific points that were made that have not

been answered?

 

Moderators, kindly adhere to the established guidelines articularly

around lengthy answers. I shall be pleased if this note is

published by moderators !

Draupadi Arjun Sharma

 

--------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Hari Om

 

Meenakshiji !

 

You said :

 

When a mother chooses to abort her baby, she adds to her own karma

or she could be erasing the karma of the unborn fetus.

 

I say:

 

Who is she to erase karma of the Fetus ? Certainly and only she

adds to her own karma ! Is the fetus at any point of time unborn ,

once conception has taken place?

 

You said:

 

Just reflect

on the story of Ganga and the 8 Vasus in the Mahabharatha. She

drowns out all the 7 and the last one becomes Devavrath/ Bheeshma.

There is an Upa katha regarding the Vasus not wanting to be bound to

human life and sorry about being cursed to take human birth.

 

I say:

 

Why did not she kill them in the womb itself ? Think and come back !

What difference would it have made to 7 Vasus who did not want human

birth had they been aborted or they were given birth and handed over

to nature ? What difference would it have made to Mom- if no

difference why she took the trouble of carrying them for 9 months ?

Why the desire of 7 Vasus were not granted by Mother Nature? Why

were they allowed to sleep in the womb for 9 months?

 

You say:

 

Likewise the " killing " of the 6 children prior to Krishna by Kamsa-

there, he takes the karma of the terrible murders of newborn infants.

 

I say:

 

Why do you think a person as cruel as Kansa did not kill or ensure

abortion of them while the children were in the womb itself ? Think

and come back ! Are we not worse than him if we kill them in the

womb itself ?

 

You said:

 

As per the shastras there are 3 possible times when the atma enters

the foetus -

at the moment of conception, during pregnancy or at birth.

 

I say

 

Kindly quote from where you derived this conclusion ! Atma cannot

enter at 3 different times ! It enters once and leaves once ! Life

gets transferred the moment ovum meets sperm and enters the womb-

that is called conception ! Check with any scientist and check the

progression of foetus thereafter. You may even get week by week

account of growth there after in scientific literature ! Check

please !!

 

You say:

 

So, it depends entirely on the mother what she wishes to do with the

fetus.

 

I say:

 

Where did you read that a mother can also destroy ? What is the role

of mother to preserve or destroy ? Do any human laws permit a

Doctor to kill also, because he has power to save life? In which

species of life out of 8.4 million species prevalent on this planet,

you found a mother killing her own children ? Name them !

I need not say that each specie preserves them, nurtures them.

 

You said:

 

What is a 'greater " karma path - abortion or having to live a life

with the born child? This is something that can be answered only by

the mother and the " time " she finds herself in.

 

I say:

 

Who told you she has both the powers? If she is that powerful, why

she should not decide to save her own child? Did not our Moms decide

so ? If it is her sole prorogative, what is wrong - to murder or to

preserve ?

Does theory of " karma " ( in other words " duty " ) have alternatives

available ? If yes then whether distinction of " good " or " bad " can

be avoided? If no , then is the karma of murder good ? If yes, then

whether preserving the child is a bad karma ? If yes, then what is

mother ? A killer/murderer or a sustainer/preserver? In which

species of life, can you find a killer mother?

 

You say:

 

I do not believe we

can sit at our keyboards and decide for her. And interestingly,

based on the " mind set " of the mother at that particular time,

she can choose either wise.

 

I say:

 

What if her mind is driven by selfishness or deceit or sin or anger

or greed or desire or passion or ignorance or stupidity or comfort

or illusion ? Is mind governor of her ? What about " self " ? What

about " conscience " ? What about duty? What about justice? Is she

God ? If she is God why can't she change the very " time " or

circumstances ? Does not every choice available to any one

involve " karma " ? Good or bad !!

 

Now come on, Dear Sister ! Be bold and respond ! There is nothing

wrong in arguing in good spirit on this topic confronting the

humanity at large ! It is a healthy argument ! A pious debate !

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

------------------------------

 

I am disappointed that many people have labeled certain utterances

that came through me as " anti-Ramsukhdasji " and " anti-life " . Many

questions have been raised against them with agitation …

 

First of all, I do not see any disagreement. Even so, I do not think

a disagreement could disrespect anybody, particularly a saint like

Ramsukhdasji! Moreover, a genuine disagreement is the true respect

one can ever show to anybody! On the other hand, how can there be

any difference of opinion in absolute genuinity?! I don't think so.

 

Second, that I have no respect for the sacred mother-hood. I am very

disappointed with such unilateral judgments. In my understanding,

those words came through me only due to the deeprooted respect

toward motherhood. Moreover, due to an ABSOLUTE respect to a mother,

more than her motherhood.

 

FOR ME, A MOTHER IS MUCH HIGHER THAN HER ROLE, MOTHERHOOD.

 

I re-iterate my conviction. My mother is much more important than

her motherhood to me. She has all the authority – not just 100%, but

infinite% – over my life. If she chose to terminate me at any stage,

I have nothing to complain about.

 

I WILL NOT JUDGE MY MOTHER FOR ANY REASON.

 

I WILL NOT PREACH MY MOTHER FOR ANY REASON.

 

I WILL NOT JUDGE OR PREACH ANY POTENTIAL MOTHER FOR ANY REASON.

 

I DO NOT WANT TO INTERFERE WITH ANY MOTHER'S CHOICE, WHATSOEVER IT

MAY BE.

 

IT IS MY MOTHERS CALL … IT IS MOTHER NATURE'S CALL … WHEN TO TAKE ME

BACK.

 

I AM NOBODY TO CRITICIZE HER. ANY ATTEMPT TO QUESTION HER EITHER WAY

IS THE DEEPROOTED DISRESPECT WE HAVE DEVELOPED THANKS TO OUR

INTELLIGENT IGNORANCE :(.

 

I have nothing against Anti-Abortion. If anybody, other than a

mother takes a decision of aborting any child, I agree with all of

you 100%. Of course, it is the most heinous act one can imagine.

 

But, I have everything against any suggestion that violates a

mother's authority over her child. If she wants to keep it … it is

her choice. If she does not want to … it is her choice. Either way,

the mother – be it human or nature – is as respectable as ever.

 

For the first time, I am agitated with this group.

 

What I read beneath all these emotional outbursts is, … After all, a

woman is born to bear child no matter what … After all Mother Earth

is born only to support us no matter what … Lord Vishnu will come

down to order them to do their duty if they do not listen to us …

after all, what is the purpose of us being His bhaktas here?!

 

I feel as if the group is attempting to throw filth on a mother,

daring to label a mother as a sinner in a unilateral insistance

based on a mere opinion, belief, superstition! Now, I am angry!!

Because, I do not see any difference between ignorant people stoning

an unfortunate mother and this group!!!

 

PLEASE DO NOT BOTHER ME WITH YOUR UNILATERAL JUDGMENTS ON THIS

MATTER. IF YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT I UNDERSTAND, GOOD FOR YOU.

OTHERWISE, DROP MY OPNINIONS. I DO NOT WORRY WHETHER YOU TAKE IT OR

NOT. SERIOUSLY.

 

PS: I strongly feel that, certain group here is getting carried away

in certain notions and beliefs. It is very unfortunate that this

group is so intolerant to any suggestions – which may have an

apparent tone of difference from an accepted norm – to an extent of

fanatism. Unless one could respect a difference of opinion, one

cannot progress in spirituality – again, that is my understanding. I

hope, the group opens back to freedom of expression, IN THE REVERED

TRADITION OF THIS FORUM, that is fundamental for removal of one's

deep rooted ignorance. Again, that is just my opinion. Please leave

an opinion where it belongs to.

 

Thank You.

 

Naga Narayana

 

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

Nagaji, I don't believe the intent is to tag anyone as " anti-

Ramsukhdasji " and " anti-life " . Please be assured of that.

 

Gita Talk Moderator

Ram Ram

-

 

Jai Hanuman

 

Bharati Bahen ! Do you agree that - since time immemorial- many or

rather uncountable sisters might have, after being gone through the

agony of male cruelty, given birth also to the children and must

have faced the same cruel world, relatives, societies ? Same cold

heartedness ! Do you agree ? Who preserved them? Who took care of

them? Did not they live still and did not many of those children

reached to higher platforms than what they started with ? What was

wrong with those moms? Were they not worshippable? We as females-

what kind of compromises we don't make? Why we should bother so much

about the petty societies, relatives, some one in the world holding

our hands, accepting us, recognising us ? Are they ours when we

don't incur sins or when even we are whole heartedly theirs? Are

they ours when they have accepted us and held our hands? No ! No!

Dear Sister!

 

Duty never changes, Dear Sister ! Our role never changes! What have

we got to do with society ? We are answerable to God - Daddy the

great and to our conscience only.

 

One should believe in Daddy the Great only. After Him, one should

believe in doing duty of oneself ONLY. What kind of support we can

expect from this world - defined as " dukhalayam " ? What difference

such support can make if Daddy is not in favour? What is the need of

this world if Daddy is with us ?

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

--------------------------------

Dear Divine Atmans

 

Everything in this world is God's creativity and the facilities

which he has given us is for our comfort. Misuse of God's belongings

is the biggest crime which a human being does. As asked in the

questions about abortion. Every creature in the world comes with the

consent of God and he leaves the world only after his (god's)

permission. He has all our account of past karmas, he gives us all

possible changes to improve our mistake and surrender ourselves

completely in his feet.

 

No mother has right to abort her child, because it is the god's gift

for her which she should accept happily. As per the question of rape

a modern women has completely forgetten that she is a women she

started competing with men rape is the result of western culture

which today's youth have adopted with utmost pride.If a women starts

being a real Indian women and start living her life like typical

indian greatwomens like jhansi rani ,sita maiya, panchali they can

rigthly fight with the dangerous western culture which is slowly

destroying our Indian identity and our traditional and cultural

values. British left india but while leaving India they had strong

desire to destroy our powerful culture and traditions. British are

still doing that so it is time for we Indians to wake up and help

the great Yogic gurus like swami Ramdevji in their motto.We must

wake up and come forward to help these religious saints in their

motto.India is a land of devotion, peace,unity and oneness and our

saints are attempting each and every minute to save our land from

dangerous western attacks in the form of the wrong ideas they are

insisting in our peopls mind throug media and many other means.We

should be careful enough to differentiate between good and bad of

our county.

 

Jai Hind

Rakshita Mehra

------------------------------

 

Jai Shree Krishna!

I give below my honest thoughts; I will love to be corrected by a

vedic scholar, who is both shrothriya and brhmanishta (knowledgeable

and practitioner of teachings).

Ans to qn 1: When a rape occurs, the female is a victim and not an

intending kartha. Not being a kartha (Doer) she need be also a

bhoktha (Enjoyer). So no sin should accrue to her, by aborting. In

my opinion the intention behind a sin is important consideration.

Ans to qn 2: No clue. Perhaps wickipaedia could help.

Ans to qn 3: Not to my knowledge. My knowledge may be incomplete.

Ans to qn 4: Sex is a divine act, performed to cooperate and perform

our part in God's plan of creation; Offending a woman's modesty is a

heinous crime, which attracts karmic punishment.

Ans to qn 5: Rape is a gratification of the animal instinct of

passion, without exercise of human gift of rational thinking. Woman

is a sense object and the sense that is displayed by the rapist is

Kama. For the sins accumulated by males due to this kama, refer to

Bhagavad Gita III - 36 & 37 and II -62 & 63.

My regards. Prof Ramanujam.

 

 

--------------------------------

Hari Om

 

This refers to the question of Dr Rampersad as to who comes forward

to help the mother after we encourage her not to abort?.

 

Doctor ! Who feeds every creature every day ? Who sustains this

world? Who made males, females, this creation, Oceans, Sun, Moon,

Stars, Air, Water, Fire, Space, Bodies, Food , Minerals ? Do you or

me or the mother in question or the child or some one else ? Who

made us as humans ? Why ? How ?

 

Doctor ! Who decided that whether you should be a male or a female ?

Black or white? Born in a hut or in a palace? Born where in this

world ? Living for 50 years or 100 years or 100 hours or 100 months?

Did you , me or our parents or some body/thing else ?

 

Doctor ! I dunno as to your age and experience , but tell me as a

sadhak as to what is our role in this unique creation ? What are our

direct experiences ?

 

If you feel that " I am the doer " - then who preserves an absolute

orphan who becomes orphan , say from day 1? ( Is it not possible/

practical ?) Who arranged milk in our Mom's person ? Who will take

care of us , when we are absolutely incapable of doing any effort of

our own , say in our old age or say when we are very sick ? Who

circulates blood constantly in your vessels ? Who is responsible for

regular or irregular heart beats? Who made immunity systems in the

body ? Can we replicate such creation?

 

Think over these inputs. Think as to what is God , what is Destiny ,

what is Self and why that is . Just think a fresh. Please come

back ! That you should once we have entered Divine Satsanga !!

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

------------------------------

Interesting arguments. Here are mine to add to the bandwagon!

 

When we see from the dharma-karma cycle, all these 'events " of birth

and death are but mere waves in the ocean of consciousness. Given

that, attaching such opinions to either is interesting in itself.

 

When a mother chooses to abort her baby, she adds to her own karma

or she could be erasing the karma of the unborn fetus. Just reflect

on the story of Ganga and the 8 Vasus in the Mahabharatha. She

drowns out all the 7 and the last one becomes Devavrath/ Bheeshma.

There is an Upa katha regarding the Vasus not wanting to be bound to

human life and sorry about being cursed to take human birth.

Likewise the " killing " of the 6 children prior to Krishna by Kamsa-

there, he takes the karma of the terrible murders of newborn infants.

 

As per the shastras there are 3 possible times when the atma enters

the foetus - at the moment of conception, during pregnancy or at

birth. So, it depends entirely on the mother what she wishes to do

with the fetus.

What is a 'greater " karma path - abortion or having to live a life

with the born child? This is something that can be answered only by

the mother and the " time " she finds herself in. I do not believe we

can sit at our keyboards and decide for her. And interestingly,

based on the " mind set " of the mother at that particular time,

she can choose either wise.

 

Cheers,

Meenakshi Srinivasan

------------------------------

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

The extreme rarity of human birth and the only birth where

Salvation / Liberation / God or Self Realization are possible, on

having attained this rarest form of birth, instantly being denied

that right for realization / salvation, clearly --- there was

nothing more worse, in Swamiji's eyes than abortion (under any

circumstance). One has no control over what happens (e.g rape), but

certainly one has control over one's actions and choices (finding

workable alternatives without killing/aborting).

 

Most important of all, Swamiji, rarely expressed his own views. All

his teachings came directly from the scriptures, and he is only

sharing what the scriptures are stating. All other perspectives

would become secondary such as - society/personal/economical/family

etc. Everything else in this world is coming and going and will

work out in due time. It always does !

 

Meera Das

Ram Ram

 

------------------------------

 

I live in England and have a teenage daughter. I would be

interested in the english translation of Swamiji's

article " Abortion - Worst of All Sins. "

 

Thank you, the group has shed light on many things that were unknown

to me. Very informative ! Amita Nagarani

------------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

As I understand, this platform is concerned with understanding God,

Truth, and Realizing in our life so we can be guided in all

situations of life, one of which could be the issue discussed here-

Abortion. The way I see is that each time one faces this(or any)

issue, it is new when it happens and for all who are apparantly

involved in situation, even though this one is an age-old problem

having so many precedences. Therefore, one set of solution may not

be applicable in all cases.

The main question starts with: " If raped,...... " , setting a

speculative tone and expecting a general right or wrong answer.

If one lives a life of righteousness, following one's dharmas,

acting selflessly, with unbroken faith in Truth, that which is

Eternal and not transient, realizing him/her to be That, then the

decision to act in such situation would come from THAT Impersonal,

and not from " person " one assumes one to be but is not! That

decision will be right for that time coming from Truth itself, not

from " person " . The great example among many, is the just war of

Mahabharata in which killing even one's own loved ones are

justified. The whole issue turns out to be that of living a life of

Dharma, and Realization of who " we are " so that we can answer such

social dilemnas effectively.

Krishnaji allowed diplomatic ways in the war against Kauravas to

defeat the powerful among them which would have been sinful acts

including killings in some other set of circumstances.

I am not for or against as such but am for living righteously in

NOW, realizing my true nature, and be guided in the moment when

faced with such choices.

Besides, when God, the Supreme Intelligence sustains/guides all of

us, He/She does it only through people by manifesting through them

to serve greater good. There is nothing else but God says the

Sruti! " I " am not God as a person, but all of us together as one

Whole Consciousness, insentient included, are indeed God! Such

seeming persons are Saints and Sages and other wise people living

amongst us right now. So to abort or not is also Her/his decision

in the guise of people for or against.

Why don't we follow guidelines set by moderators and be a bit more

sensitive to those responses that may be against our own? This is

the real test of our own spiritual maturity too!

Nmaskaras....Pratap Bhatt

 

------------------------------

PREVIOUS POSTING

My dandavats to all.....

I am praying that I may not offend anyone in this forum....but I

am forced by my committment to truth to say what I understand to be

such.,Is the solution for women who are not taken care of, who are

not protected by either father, husband, or son and thereby raped,

to go and murder their child? The problem begins with the

government taking reponsibility for the citizens. If the leaders of

society would impose proper punishment to the rapist, then men would

think very carefully about putting their hands on a woman they had

no business touching.

 

Dr. Rampersad has stated..... " Who comes forward to help the woman

bring up this child, after we encourage her to have this child? If

she wants the child, fine, if she does not want the child, then that

is also fine. "

 

I personally do not think that aborting a child will ever truly

make anyone, especially the mother, feel " fine " . If the scenario is

that she doesn't want the child, is it possible that through

discussion with older, more mature women, she can develop a sense of

acceptance, a feeling of love, regardless if the circumstances are

painful. That soul is there, taking shelter of you, dear woman,

will you kill someone who has taken shelter of you? This would seem

to me to be a ghastly, unforgiveable concept....a soul comes to

another soul, under whatever circumstances, the soul (baby) has

come....it is totally dependant for food, nourishment, peaceful

environment, whatever it is given, it is dependent.....and the host

shall determine, " this guest is uninvited....I will kill it so I

don't have to be troubled " . There is absolutely no reason not to

think of the unborn baby as a guest.....he or she is a soul who has

come to stay in another's house (body).

 

The deeper problem in society is that families are not staying

together, elders are not loved and respected, cared for patiently by

the children whom they raised. The caring for elderly people

instills patience and love in younger generation....without this

patience and loving mood, how will young ladies develop as mothers

themselves? But finding surrogate mothers, fathers, etc. is not

wrong. I left home at 14 to live in a Krishna temple....hence I

have had to constantly examine and search for loving relationships

to help me understand my role in society, and how to learn proper

interaction.

 

Murderering an unborn guest who has entered our womb will never

make any woman " fine " . It will only harden the heart, and then once

the action is done, it is as if one had smashed a precious work of

art.....indeed, the most precious. It cannot be picked up and glued

back together after being destroyed. To suggest such a thing, I

feel, indicates a lack of understanding of the fact that when a

young girl or woman is bewildered, she needs support to love, to

care, to be brave, to pray to the Lord and to the Divine Mother to

give her the stability to nurture, when perhaps she never had much

herself. Because to do anything else would deprive her of the sense

of motherhood, the growing within herself of the qualities of a

beautiful, loving, caring, sensitive and fulfilled being. To guide

anyone to abort a child is truly not thinking of the future

developement or conscious of the mother, for once the act is done,

then there is so much other chaos, which cannot ever be erased. And

none of this is known to the poor girl who is being told to

abort....she doesn't realize that " if I had known how I felt

afterward, I would never have done it " .

 

If society does or does not come forth to help a woman, still

this does not justify murdering a guest. We all must accept our

karma, and pray to not incur more.....but let us also try to give

strength and support to help others be more loving....then little by

little, the karma of mother Bhumi's miserable condition may change.

She is a mother, she is supporting us.....with a grateful heart, let

us follow her example of giving, not taking, life.

 

With deepest concern and love, Mahalaksmi Dasi

 

-------------------------------

Namasthe all, regarding the question : QUESTION 1: If raped, the

fact is the baby formed is not at fault.

One does not have the right to kill a child just because of that

fact. What would be such a case when rape occurs and the child is

aborted?

 

I guess, some of the sadhaks have replied their opinions here. My

humble opinion is: Read and listen whatever has been said but one

needs to use one's own judgement in making these decisions. As one

of the sadhaks has said: what would you do if you are in the

position of that woman ?

 

Just a thought :

If you are insisting that the woman who has been raped need to have

a child, think about this: Would you purposely and knowingly help a

woman who has been victimised by rape and make your children play

with her children and make sure that you support her with whatever

you can. Do not worry of whether she should abort or not but

instead, try to focus on helping the child already born of rape

knowingly. By seeing your actions, other women will try to see that

they need not abort. Also, if you are a man, if one is not married

and he thinks that a woman who is raped should not abort the kid,

then let him marry that woman and become the father of the unborn

kid.

 

Talking and advising is easy. Standing firm with what we talk is

very difficult. also, if you a woman and think that the woman should

keep the unborn kid, support the other woman who is raped with

raising of her kid ? Let there be no expection when helping the

mother raise her kid. (having no expection for any of your actions

is Karma yoga).. Let your actions say the message and not your words.

 

Regards,

Bharathi

-------------------------------

 

Dear Sadaks,

 

Killing a child in womb or the lady commiting suicide is Brahmahatya

Dosh. One does not have rights to kill (himself or other). By doing

so the soul hangs in space suffers lot until it`s original date of

death. Every action done for the needs of the self comes under

Prarabdha Karma which one cannot escape the reaction. Such a woman,

will be reborn as woman, and will not be able to concieve a child,

experiencing untold misery and unhappiness due to longing mind for a

child.

 

King Dasaratha while hunting accidently and unknowingly shot arrow

at a boy which led to curse of separation from Sri Rama. Bhagavan

Shiva had committed Brahmahatya dosam, and for that had to beg with

bowl until Mahalakshmi filled the bowl. Bhagavan Vishnu took the

form of a king to make a queen (Maha Pathni) believe HIM to be her

husband. Bagavan never even went near her thereafter. But having

taken that form a curse came that Bagavan should become stone. That

is Salagrama. In all these cases it was for loka Kalyan

(upliftment/salvation/liberation of others). Arjuna was in Indra Lok

when Menaka/Urvasi invited Him for pleasures. In indra lok such acts

of engaging with differant persons not a sin. But Arjuna was cursed

for refusing, with being a Bedi (Neither Woman, Nor Man). This

disguise " bedi " was useful during the year of hiding in forest.

Sastras said that killing a person to save a village, dstroying a

village, to save a large town, are not sin. Any act that benefits

(leads to salvation) for more people (Lok Kalyan) is what must be

done.

 

B.Sathyanarayan

 

-------------------------------

Jai Hanuman

 

Very Good ,Doc Bhaiyya? Great !!

 

By the way, what according to you, Brother, was the practical

teaching of Lord Krishna to Arjuna in " aapadharma " which was

sound/appropriate enough for you to conclude that for the same or

similar reasons " the normal laws of morals or ethics can not be

established blindly- in case of rape / injustice " ? Please

enlighten, Jee !

 

What is " aapad " (emergent) according to you? What is " dharma "

according to you? What according to you are normal laws of morals

and ethics, Jee ? How they are so, Jee ? Why they are so, Jee? Who

made them so, Jee ? Are they so, Bhaiyya ?

 

What were the reasons according to you which made Arjuna to deviate

from what you call to be " normal moral/ethical laws " , Dear Brother?.

Did he really deviate from them? How did he deviate ? Why did he ?

Why he could not have conducted otherwise ?

 

This is a divine forum of sadhaks, Bhaiyya Jee !! Feel free to state

the voice of your " self " or " mind " or " ego " or " intellect "

or " conscience " or " body " or of " friends " or of " hearsay " ! Whatever

and however you prefer to respond !. Go ahead , Kindly - Jee ! But

respond for sure ! There are not many questions , if you think ?

Certainly not as many as are interrogation marks in this very

response of mine !

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

--------------------------------

Salutations to all in this Forum

 

Any controls on creation are direct interventions in the role of

God. It may result (or rather it has resulted/ does result always)

in calamities. Life when you look back and see, appears to all of us

as dream or non-existent. Humans are different species altogether.

They have to face the life as it comes. They should not run like

dogs for mere sensual pleasures. A female is much higher than males,

and advicing her that abortion is justifiable (in any circumstance

whatsoever) is a crime in itself. Women create and nurture the men.

Women are mothers and mothers are needed. What is there in the world

if there is no mother ? Imagine, the state of a motherless world !!

Just imagine !

 

Luca Brasi

--------------------------------

 

PRIOR POSTING

 

Ragarding Hari Deo's comments, religion is Duty! Duty is

religion ! Where is the distinction between the two? Does " Duty "

have no role when an innocent helpless one is murdered ruthlessly?

Who has entitled us to control Creation? As one sadhak stated, are

we even capable of doing anything if we cannot pass urine? Surely we

have to seek the help of a doctor. What is then our power? Ever

checked with child-less couples about their state (which includes

10% of the world population, and on the rise). How much more do we

want to contribute to this rise? Why?

 

Lallubhai C

--------------------------

Who comes forward to help the woman bring up this child, after we

encourage her to have this child? If she wants the child, fine, if

she does not want the child, then that is also fine.

 

It is a woman's right to determine what she should do with her body.

Particularly in case of rape, and life and death or any other

justifiable situations.

 

Bhagwan Krishna taught Arjuna how to be practical in the face of

appaddharma. This is also a case of special circumstances and the

normal laws of morality and ethics cannot be applied blindly.

 

Dr. Rampersad

--------------------------

Namaste to sadhaks

 

Mr Naga - if your observations are accepted by a confused,

dis-illusioned, yet innocent person, then what kind chaos can result

in her and in society at large? Was there any consideration given

to women being viewed as mere cheap objects of pleasures for men ?

Is this advocating for them? Or is it insulting them and

motherhood. The way I read into the advice that is being offered –

One should kill the child because when he comes out of womb there

will be no loving embrace of father. Or kill the child because some

one else sinned against the woman. X commits a sin against Y, then

by what kind of logic can justify Y doing a more brutal act, an

ultimate sin (abortion) against Z? What exactly is being

communicated? Why is it being said ? Who are you saying it to? How

are you saying it? In this forum all are sadhaks are people who are

drawn towards God, towards duty, towards the ultimate bliss and

freedom. Kindly re-think your message.

 

No ! Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj can never say a wrong word. What a

mother will not do to protect an unborn child ! SHE WILL GO TO ANY

LENGTH FOR PROTECTING AN UNBORN CHILD! That is mother!!

 

I join hands in support of divine work of Prem Khullar. I totally

agree with various sadhaks in support of unborn child .

 

Bandook Singh

--------------------------

Jai Chandi Maata

 

Mr Hari Shanker Deo - your comment about - bringing religion in

matters regarding abortion needs to be reconsidered /elaborated

by you. Can you tell as to how you arrived at the conclusion that if

religion is brought in this ghastly human conduct, then each lady

would deliver 20 children? Even if that is true, for

argument's sake, then can you let the sadhaks know as to how that

would be improper according to you? Also where according to you

religion is useful and where it is not useful? Please explain there

as to what else according to you is useful where religion has no

role to play? Who then plays the role? Also describe what do you

mean by saying- " unwanted children " ? How abortion is the answer for

what you want or you don't want ? No body cuts the body to suit the

trousers ! Isn't it?

 

I agree whole-heartedly with Mahalaxmi Dasi.

 

Fajeeti Rani

----------------------------

 

PRIOR POSTING

 

-Shree Hari-

 

I thought I would write down a few words that came to me when

reflecting on such a diabolical thing. Prem Khullarji, I am truly

sorry I do not have the knowledge to help with the sacred scriptures.

It is my absolute desire that Bhagwan will guide you, and bless you.

All I can do is bow my head in sorrow.

 

Do not murder me mumma dear.

I have joy to give, and laughter to give,

loving arms to embrace you.

Please do not make a silent space.

Mumma, I implore you.

 

With Respect and Divine Love,

 

Mike Keenor

------------------------------

 

Raam Raam Raam

 

Vandanaji's message was really soul toching and so was of Shirin.

If we can understand a simple fact that human life is not given to

us for any enjoyment or pleasures and that this life is a " KARMA

YONI' or " SADHAN YONI " where you have to do your duties only- the

entire discussion gets summed up there. If we can even understand

that this entire creation is a " lila of God " the thorn of

dissatisfaction felt by females gets removed. If we can understand

and appreciate the fact that there is one accurate and precise Law

of Karma in operation in this world , a Law which is blind, ruthless

but just and equitable, a law which is governing the the entire

humanity, then we shall understand as to why one is given the birth

as a male or female , or as to why it is the duty of female to

protect the fetus. We are in fact considering the Laws made by

Paramatma and are finding faults with each other. Males are not

happy with females and vice versa. We dont even resist from finding

faults with the creation and the creator. IF ONLY WE BELIEVE EITHER

IN PARAMATMA, OR IN PURUSHARTHA OR IN PRABDHA- such bitterness shall

not arise. But we are looking at the world as REAL, as a PLEASURE

GIVING CREATION and hence this state of affairs. Why blame males ?

Some body has to conceive. What if child becomes parentless on the

day 1? Does it not happen? What if another catastrophe occurs ?

UNLESS WE BELIEVE AND ACCEPT THAT THIS WORLD IS A MIRAGE/DREAM/LILA

OF GOD and our role is to play our duties diligently and realise

Paramatma - aeons will pass but we shall be no where near the

PEACE !!! If some female has been wronged, raped - she has not

incurred any sin. The male has incurred sin. Only when she because

someone has done injustice to her, does the same thing with another

innocent soul- she sins, not before. Hence -Vandanaji -scriptures

advice females against abortion.

 

Females can draw the solace from the fact that the brute males shall

not be spared similarly from the wrongs done to females. Law of

Karma will hit them more brutally. There is no need of quoting

scriptures to substantiate that. It goes without saying. When our

role is to do our own DUTY only - arising out of whatever

circumstances Law of Karma/Paramatma/Mother Nature has presented to

us in this otherwise DUKHALAYAM ASHASHWATHAM - then what remains to

be the issue ? ACCEPT THE CIRCUMSTANCES AS IT IS, DO YOUR DUTY, DONT

LOOK AT OTHER'S DUTY, REALISE GOD and ENJOY THE COMPANY OF PARAMATMA

FOREVER. Leave these worldly brutes, preachers, to their own fate.

GET YOURSELF OUT OF IT. That is all

 

Pranaam to all sadhaks

 

Beenani S

 

---------------------------

My dandavats to all in this forum,

In response to the questions posed below, I would like to attempt to

address point by point the suggestions made by our sadhak, Naga

Narayan.

 

Please explain, how one can deal with the issue of life/death in an

impersonal way? (as you have begun your presentation saying, " I

have to be pragmatic and impersonal..... " ) Is this truly something

that makes any sense? How does one discuss the issue of a mother

killing her child in an admittedly impersonal way? Something is

very wrong here, and I am not saying this to find fault. Please,

kindly ask yourself this question, How is it possible to state, " I

will deal with this issue in an impersonal way " ....when the very

nature of the subject is extremely personal, so much so that many

woman cannot live without their child? How can a man know the grief

and pain and heartache a mother would feel when her child is taken

away? Only if he is extremely mature on an emotional level, having

undergone very deep growth either in this life or previous, will he

be ALLOWED to know this pain. It is not an easy thing for a man to

know the depth of a womans' pain.

 

In the story of Prahlad Maharaj, we learn from the Srimad

Bhagavatam that the demigods had made a decision to arrest the

mother of Prahlad, while he was still in the womb, and when the

child was born, to kill him. Because his father, a terrible demon,

was performing austerities by which to conquer over the demigods,

and the fearful demigods were anxious that the child within the womb

would be an even greater demon. The great sage, Narada Muni,

arrived on the scene, and chastised the fearful demigods,

saying, " Even if you wanted to kill this child, you would not be

able to. He is a great devotee of the Lord " . Narada then took the

mother to his ashram, and constantly uttered Hari Katha, which was

heard by the embryo. When Prahlad was developing as a child, he is

renowned for instructing his school friends to sing the glories of

Lord Krsna, to put devotion before everything.

 

What right do any of us have to say what will be the character of

any given child? Or what will be it's destiny after leaving the

womb of the mother? Certainly, if you walk up to orphan's in the

street, very few will say, " Yes, we would prefer to have died. "

 

You speak of the child within the womb not having a decent father.

This is certainly tragic, but isn't it more tragic for someone to

say, " Child, you should be dead rather than live without the love of

your father " . I personally cannot comprehend this logic. Isn't the

Supreme Lord the father of all? Isn't he able to manifest in so

many, various forms, to help the living entities in this world? I

can speak from personal experience, if the child has one good

parent, either mother or father, they can conquer. They can go on

to achieve wonderful things.

 

There is a statement below, " the questions that would bother me if I

impose my personal agenda of anti-abortion are many … Well, my

dear Prabhu....when did anyone's presentation of defending the

rights of an unborn fetus become " my personal agenda " ? Speaking the

truth, that murder is sinful, is never, never, never going to become

any individual's personal agenda. It is crystal clear who actually

has a personal agenda.

 

What is the point of this forum? For anyone to give their

own " personal agenda " ? No. It is to elucidate, in regard to the

teachings of the ancient scriptures, what is proper conduct for

human beings.

 

I AM NOT ONE TO BLINDLY FOLLOW ANY TEACHINGS. IT IS NOT ONLY IN

AMERICA THAT A WOMAN HAS THE RIGHT TO BE LOVING, TO BE RESPECTED, TO

BE PROUD OF THE CONCEPT OF " I AM A MOTHER'. All women have this

right, and for any man to try to justify a woman killing her child,

is to attempt to strip her of everything that is precious to the

concept of not just a woman, but also that of a mother. What

memories are you speaking of, that she will have if the child is

born? You did not mention the horrendous guilt and memories she

would have after killing her child? Why not mention those alongside

the other.

 

Certainly men these days need to look at their traditional

roles, and what gives SOME of them the sense that women are merely

objects of their pleasure. To those men, my prayers, that you may

somehow become educated...become wise...go beyond your inflated,

pompous ego, and understand that the women of the world who truly

seek to be righteous, to be motherly, to be beautiful.....are what

will save this planet. I do not speak of all " women " .....there are

souls in both categories, of men and women, who are selfish,

destructive to themselves and others, and unable to uplift

themselves. Only our prayers for their benefit.....

 

In concluding, please allow me to examine one last paragraph.....

How correct is it on my part to insist the woman to forget that she

is also a human being entitled equally to liberty of actions and

freedom of thoughts just like me? Is it not that such victims should

be given more freedom to express themselves? … as they truly want?

 

Is this the words of a male " women's libber " ? As they were called

back in the seventies and eighties? Where does " entitled equally

to liberty of action and freedom of thought " enter into the picture

of the life of one who is dedicated to spiritual growth? Whether

male or female, if an individual studies the Gita and other sacred

teachings, even if he/she is not HIndu, still there is acceptance of

a path of religious or proper conduct. One must accept that various

courses of action have to be abandoned. Meat eating is not

conducive to spiritual life. Nor is intoxication, illicit sexual

relations, gambling, or killing of unborn babies. Regardless of how

they entered into the womb. This goes for men, as well as women.

I remember back in 1980, when I was first married, there was an

Indian doctor in Colorado where I was living in my first year of

marriage. He quit his job at the hospital, because he was

instructed to perform an abortion. He could not do it, as he had

some understanding, that, " I am NOT entitled equally to liberty of

action " . His thought was, " I am bound by the teachings of my

superiors, of my culture " . When one desires to grow in love for the

supreme, he or she does not stop thinking, feeling, expressing, but

still there is a narrow path to follow. If one wanders from that

path, he or she will be eaten by the tigers of material enjoyment.

So, suit yourselves, dear readers, if you choose to demand " freedom

of thought " , in the sense that " anything goes " . Karma will continue

to flow, whether we declare we are free of it or not. I can boldly

place my hand in a blazing fire, declaring, " I will not be burnt! "

but guess what? I will be horribly burnt. And that is not blind

religious dogma, it is merely the truth.

 

respectfully submitted, Mahalaksmi DAsi

---------------------------

Nobody likes to abort. But abortion is common these days to prevent

unwanted births due to failure of family planning. To bring religion

into it is silly because otherwise each woman would produce 20

children and the world would come to an end.

 

Hari Shanker Deo

---------------------------

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

We all become despondent like Arjuna over the course of this

spiritual journey, yet if we hear Sri Krishna's message to the

despondent Arjuna, the ultimate victory is only in following dharma,

whether it be rape or any other situation.

 

Human birth is RAREST and BEST form of all births, (1 of 8.4 million

species), and the ONLY birth where salvation is possible, therefore

to destroy at inception ??? We don't know the potential of that

Soul at inception. He / she could become one of the greatest

Saints !! a Mahatma ! and not to even give it a chance? can that

make any sense from a dharmic perspective?

 

To reiterate / summarize Varun Paprunia has stated Swamiji's

response on tough issue such as rape. Please re-read it. To

summarize some key points -

 

1) Rapist will incur terrible sin, and even woman too if she derived

pleasure.

2) Woman who aborts will definitely incur the sin of abortion.

Swamiji goes so far as to say, not to abort even if life of woman is

in danger, therefore aborting after rape is out of the question.

3) If raped women, becomes pregnant, best to give birth, nuture if

possible, if not turn over for adoption.

4) If unmarried becomes pregnant, it is better to bear the

defamation for committed sin than abortion, suicide or running from

home.

 

Swamiji's article " Abortion - Worst of All Sins " pg 990 - Saadhan,

Sudha, Sindhu in Hindi, is a must read for all and any one in this

dilemma. It is on a Video called " Silent Scream " by Dr. Nathenson,

who out of curiosity had take the ultrasound video of the entire

abortion procedure. However after watching that video, neither the

doctor who aborted, nor Dr. Nathenson, ever again returned back to

their clinic. I have the English translation, if there is interest I

could post.

 

Meera Das

Ram Ram

 

---------------------------

 

PRIOR POSTING

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

I have been a member of this group from the past few months

and have been quite influenced by the thoughts expressed by sadhaks.

But I am surprised to see that blame of abortions has been laid only

on the women. I think body of the female is involved but their male

counterparts are also equally responsible for the sin. why the

learned and respected sadhaks are counting sins that will be upon

the female involved in the sin. As I said physical body of the

female is involved and as I have learned form this sat sang only

that body is unreal and nothing it is the soul that is real. I

think the soul of their male counterparts should be equally

responsible for the sin. Can all these learned people who have read

so many scriptures also count the sins that would be upon the males

to discourage them from such acts. I think if the males desist from

misusing female body and are forthcoming in having responsibilities

of the child no woman on earth would like to abort.

 

VANDANA

---------------------------

NOTE: My response had to be lengthy ... pl. wield patience to

examine the same ... Apologies ... Naga.

 

About abortion, its insanity and its sanity

===========================================

 

I am unable to contain myself with this burning social issue on

which enormous confusion is looming around from ages. I decided not

to pursue this further … but, could not help but to get back.

 

There has been considerable debate on the issue of abortion here.

Considerable emotions are thrown in as well. It is good to know that

there are so many souls sensitive enough on the serenity of life.

 

OF COURSE, ABORTION IS A HIDEOUSLY PAINFUL CONCEPT AND A HEINOUS

REALITY TO ANY SANE PERSON.

 

It is not acceptable to me in person as well! The true question here

is, should it not be acceptable at any cost? I have to be pragmatic

and impersonal to address such a grave question.

 

FYI, the burning question is,

 

" Whether a raped woman has right NOT to bear the resultant feutus? "

 

NOT, " Whether abortion is good or not? "

 

I request you all to review your opinions with this in mind. When I

uttered what I did, I put myself in such a woman's position and felt

what it would be like in meditation. If it helps, put yourselves or

your beloved ones in such a position and then think about such

burning questions. Blindly quoting scriptures cannot resolve social

issues. Resonance with the problems with utter transparency can

alone bring resolution to such issues. Therefore, I again urge you

all … put yourselves and/or your beloved ones in such a woman's

condition … and then think. PLEASE.

 

The questions that would bother me if I impose my personal agenda of

anti-abortion are many …

 

How correct is it on my part to insist the woman to forget that she

is also a human being entitled equally to liberty of actions and

freedom of thoughts just like me? Is it not that such victims should

be given more freedom to express themselves? … as they truly want?

 

How correct is it to insist that violation of her core existence is

nothing when compared to some values that I belieive in, whatsoever

it is?

 

Suppose the woman listens and bears the child. She is obviously

tormented by the memory of her violation all through as the feutus

as well as the future child keeps this torment alive by keeping the

memories alive … how can she conduct herself as a mother with joyous

love toward the child when she herself is tormented?

 

How can any value I preach replace her torment? Nobody here seems to

be bothered about what to do the bastard who violated her! All are

throwing stones of religious insistence on the poor woman who is

already suffering from her misfortune!! What difefrence is there

between ones who physically kill such innocent victims with stones

and the ones who are throwing stones of guilt to kill her

psychologically?

 

On the other hand, the child who missed the true love and compassion

of a mother … can my religious insistance take responsibility for

such children's welfare? Can anything, even god, replace the joyous

love of a mother?

 

Suppose the child was born … there is no father … after all, how can

a rapist be a father? Even if he takes such a role, it is worse than

not having one … Have you ever considered the fate of a father-less

child? Can anything such as religion replace a father to a child?

 

What rights do we have to impose motherhood on a woman who is not

ready?

 

What rights do we have to deceive the child off its mother's joyous

love?

 

What rights do we have to dismiss the heavenly affection of a father

to such a child?

 

Afterall, if a child grows in such anarchical circumstances … what

person would it turn out to be? … a depressed vegetable, a synical

contortionist or a cruel criminal … what rights do we have have to

impose such a tax on the rest of the soceity?

 

I have not touched upon many smaller, but yet burningly real, issues

… Who will bear the econmoc burden of supporting the unfortunate

mother and the fatherless child? Who will bear the social burden of

keeping the unfortunate woman and her child happy? Is it worth being

an orphan struggling for a mouthful on the streets? I can not answer

this … an orphan can and should!

 

It is OK … the woman gave birth to a child … what about the rest of

her life? Who will marry her? If not, her whole womanhood is wasted

… in our own terms, it is a bigger sin that she is not bearing

children anymore … unless the religion summons her to keep

reproducing children the same way!!! Should it?

 

After all what use was there by the honourable religion's

intervention in such personal issues? Could it make the woman happy?

Could it make the child happy? Could it contribute to soceity's

health anyway?

 

FINALLY, CAN MY IDEOLOGY OF ANTI-ABORTION SUPERCEDE ALL THE

CONSEQUENTIAL SOCIAL CALAMITIES?

 

Answers to such subtle questions are always circumstantial. The

soceity is ever dynamic and keeps changing its value structure.

Accordingly social solutions should evolve to keep the soceity as

well as its elements in in its healthy dynamic equilibrium.

Reference to scriptures is valuable only if it is interpreted with

the circumstantial sanity in mind. For example, one might have

realized god ... it does not mean that the victim is also god-

realized. One should get into the victim's shoes to experience the

agony and search for the solution there. That requires the thinkers

of the soceity to resonate with the issue. As a spiritual seeker I

accept the highest degree of social responsibility Bhagavan Vyaasa

instructs me with:

 

Yadyadaacharati shreshthastattadev'taro janaah |

Sa yatpramaanam kuru te lokaastadanuvartate ||

 

Because others are probably gullible to just take the advise from

an " apparently intelligent source " … as a spiritual seeker I need to

consider the background of the soceity thoroughly without pushing my

personal ideologies …

 

Therefore … I request you all to put yourselves in the spot,

meditate on the issue ... and, then deliberate. PLEASE.

 

AGAIN, the question is, " Whether a raped woman has right NOT to bear

the resultant feutus? " This question does not raise if she is happy

to bear it on her own.

 

AND, the question is NOT, " Whether abortion is good or not? " –

answer to this is self-evident and does not require further

deliberation.

 

Respects

 

Naga Narayana.

-

 

 

Namaskar!

Personally felt revolted by the question in such a forum. In Gita we

talk of

karmayog. If one has done evil in any one of your even hundred or

thousand lifes

when we were on earth, obviously the same happens by law of Karma

when time is

right by Lord. Even Lord Krishna was not spared of this if one

recalls A bow was

shot on his ankle as some hunter had mistaken him for an animal from

far. The

person concerned was agahast what happened then Lord Krishna pointed

out that

during his incarnation as Lord Ram in earlier Yug he had done the

same to I

think one of the sacred trribe of monkeys , I do not recall exact

name think

ItsSugrir. In fact Lord Krishna was teaching mankind that none is

above law of

karma.In simple lanaguge what one gives comes back to you in some

form or other,

good or bad. That's the spiritual look at the problem From

humanitarian approach

all possible help to be given to victim to come back to normal and

remove the

scars of her traumatic experience, by counselling sessions by lady

doctors over

a period of few months, as the victim me relive it and start

sweating thinking

of it in sleep and scream.

 

If it is woman who is subject to such a heinous crime, she has every

right to

remove the foetus, provided it is before 12 weeks when new life sets

in. Before

that it is a mere lump of body flesh.

 

Request that spiritual things be discussed not such things, as it is

brining

down the level of decorum of Sacred Gita discussions. Nothing will

be gained

spiritually in any way by talking of man's falling moral standards

and brute

like attitude, only change will be we will become lower in

spirtuality. After

all a man is known by company he keeps. Surely there are more better

spiritual

topics than this!! We are nobody to judge others and point fingers

at them, as 4

fingers point back to us. We need to improve ourselves looking at

every

intention of ours like does it havve traced of moha, lobh krodh,

voilence,

rectify oursleves and be fit before we even consider improving

others.

 

Gratitude

 

shirin

 

---------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

 

Jai Hanuman

 

How the " mother " was and how the " mother " has now become - in this

Kaliyuga ! Killing own children ! Indeed - words can't express the

anguish of the soul !! ( Mike Bhaiyya ! I used your words- anguish

of soul !)

 

TU KITNI ACHHI HAI ? TU KITNI BHOLI HAI ? PYAARI PYAARI HAI ! O

MAA ! O MAA !

 

How good are you O Mom ! How docile are you O Mom! Oye Lovely Lovely

Jee ! O Mom ! O Mom!!

 

KI YE JO DUNIYA HAI , YE VAN HAI KAANTO KA , TU FULWAARI HAI ! O

MAA ! O MAA !!

 

That what is this world? This is only a forest of thorns ! You are

mass of flowers in it !! O Mother ! O Mother !!

 

APNA NAHIN TUJHE SUKH DUKH KOI , MAIN MUSKAAYA TU MUSKAAI , MAIN

ROYA TU ROYI !!

 

O Mom! You have no concern for your own pleasures and pains at all !

If I smile , you smile ! If I cry , you cry !!

 

MERE HANSANE PE , MERE RONE PE , TU BALIHAARI HAI ! O MAA , O MAA !!

 

You are ever loving - irrespective of whether I smiled or I cried !

You agree to however I am !! O Mom ! O Mom !!

 

MAA BACHON KI JAAN HOTI HAI ! WOH HOTE HAI KISMAT WALE JINKE MAA

HOTI HAI !!

 

A Mother is the very life force of the child. Fortunate are those ,

whose mother lives long !

 

KITNI SHEETAL HAI, KITNI SUNDAR HAI , NYAARI NYAARI HAI ! O MAA , O

MAA !!

 

How calm ! How adorable !! Always exclusive , super exclusive !! O

Mother ! O Mother !!

 

Hey Daddy the Great ! O Mom !! Kindly save us all from such ghastly

crimes !

 

Agreed, O Binanee S, Jee ! Agreed Vyas NB Jee !! Agreed Mahalaxmi

Maiyyaji !!! Agreed Mira Bahenji !!!! Mike Bhaiyya- sitting with

consort??? - how difficult it can become - when BG 18:32 is

operational?? - for both and each one ? Baba ! Where are we going ?

 

KAHAAN JAA RAHA HAI , TU AIYE JAANE WALE ! ANDHERA HAI MAN KAA DIYA

TO JALALE !!

 

Where are you going O Traveller ? There is darkness all around ! Why

don't you burn the light of " CONSCIENCE " within ?

 

May all understand what is way out of BG 18:32 !!!

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

--------------------------

 

Hari Om

 

Khullarji. Here are some slogans

 

* Silent scream of the fetus - what is my fault O Mummy ? What is my

fault O daddy ?

 

* Don't suck life out of me! Save m ! Save me! Have mercy on me ! I

will bring pleasures in your garden! O mummy - I am your daughter

only!

 

 

* Mera kasoor kya hai ?

 

* O mom ! Please give me birth. My own fate will take care of me

thereafter!

 

* O murderers! You will not even get water in future births what to

talk of food !

 

* O parents ! You enjoyed and I get killed! Is this humanity?

 

* Even a witch leaves at least one house unharmed! Don't kill fetus

in the womb ! Even witches don't do that!

 

* Fetus killing - a frightful disrespect to motherhood !

 

* You want to increase production on one hand and kill producer in

the womb itself- what kind of wisdom is this? What kind of

government is this?

 

* Birth control means converting a female into a prostitute !

 

* Control death first and then think of controlling birth !

 

* Fetus killing is resorted by those who neither believe in

Paramatma, nor in prarbdha (destiny) nor in purushartha!

 

* Getting medical test done, finding female fetus in the womb and

killing ! Is this respect to a woman? Is this a way of giving women

equal rights?

 

* O mothers! Don't lose the power of motherhood for ever! Don't kill

your child! Don't become object of pleasure only for men! Don't

become prostitutes!

 

* Kill fetus and become a non fruit bearing tree forever!

 

* Don't be so merciless O parents ! There will be no one left even

to give you a drop of water in future!

 

* Female fetus killing is the surest method of eliminating mothers

from the planet ! In whose womb you shall sleep in the next birth?

 

* Even bitches, witches and vampires do not kill their own children!

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

 

 

---------------------------

My dandavats to all in this forum...

MY heart breaks when I read the post of Prem Kullar. It is so

terrible that the east has taken up the course of following

activities of the west. I have lived in america my entire life, and

although perhaps I am " privileged " in the sense that I own propety,

car, etc.....I am extremely aware that there is no culture here in

America. No deep rooted traditions, no religious coloring of any

particular faith, and no strong bonds in communities. What little I

could offer in this discussion, is simply WHY? WHY? WHY FOLLOW THE

WEST? Though Sri Krsna's love is everywhere, though daily I

encounter beautiful people with loving hearts, they are suffering so

much in this country. The stress of city life is tremendous.....but

in the country there is no money to be made....(I have done both).

THIS COUNTRY IS DOOMED.....there is very little time left for it due

to its atrocious treatment of the cow, due to abortions, and due to

its policies of usurping and controlling resources of other

nations. WHY, WHY, WHY FOLLOW THE WEST? From the mouth of one

who has lived here my entire life, WAKE UP. I have visited India

twice, both times became completely overwhelmed with love for the

Supreme, to a degree that I am unable to express.....will India give

up all it's accumulated piety to become a hellish pit of

impersonalism and selfishness as the west? I pray not. Again, my

heart aches, what can I say, except all glories to your efforts,

Prem....to stop murder. To open the eyes of those who are blind....

 

In the words of Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta in his purport to bhagavad

Gita, " Those who commit such abominable acts will never see the

light of day again. "

So, the chain of karma will continue.....those killing the fetus

will themselves have to take birth in a womb and be aborted, time

and time again, to pay the price.

 

respectfully,

Mahalaksmi Dasi

------------------------------

Raam ! Raam !! Raam!!!

 

Some slogans for Mr Prem Khullar

 

1. Dont kill me in the womb itself - O mother ! O father ! I

will come with my own fate supporting me in this world !!!

 

2. Efforts of increasing agricultural production and controlling

births is like efforts of increasing milk in mother's breasts and

then not allowing conception !!!

 

3. Oh Mom ! Dear Mom !!! Why I should get killed when you enjoyed ?

 

4. O Father ! O Mother !! Throw me in a dust bin after giving birth!

But don't kill me when i am so helpless !!

 

5. Please! Please save me O parents ! I have capacity to bring

pleasures for you!

 

6. What is my fault? What my fault?? If you don't save me, who

will?

 

7. Even the wildest and the cruelest of animals do not kill their

own children!

 

With sincere Pranaams to all genuine Sadhaks! Shame on those who

advocate such ghastly acts ! SHAME !! SHAME !!!

 

Beenani S.

 

------------------------------

Hari Om

 

Let me now address Khullarji's query.

 

Swamiji used to put up a bill board outside His temporary abode

every where that - Those who have done sin of abortion may please

not bring " bhiksha " for me ! " Bhiksha " - alm of food. Swamiji would

eat food brought by 5 houses every day.

 

In Manusmriti - 4/208 , it is stated that

 

BHROONAN GHAVEKSHITAM CHAIV SANSPRISHTAM CHAAPYUDAKYAYA !

PATATRINA VALEEDHAM CHA SHUNA SANSPRISHTAMEVA CHA !!

 

One should not eat food (1) touched by female in periods (2)

touched by a dog (3) partially eaten by a bird (4) seen by (what to

say " touched by " ) one who ever indulged in abortion !

 

Verse referred by Khullarji is in Parashar Smriti 4/20.

 

YATPAPAM BRAHMA HATYAYA DVIGUNAM GARBHPATNE !

PRAYASHCHITAM NA TASYAATI TASYATYAAGO VIDHIYATE

 

In Brahma Vaivat Purana ( Prakrati Khand, Chapter 2) it is stated

that in the beginning of creation, the basic prakrati ( Shri Radha)

threw her fetus into waters. God immediately cursed her - From now

onwards you will never have a child. Not only that, by your part

whatever " divya " females will get created they also shall be without

a child. Thereafter from the tongue of Basic Nature (Shri Radha) -

Goddess Saraswati incarnated. Later on that Basic Nature got split

into 2 parts. From Left body - Goddess Laxmi incarnated. From Right

body " Radha " incarnated. God also became two. From half left body He

became " Chaturbhuj Vishnu " (Four armed Vishnu) and from right part

He became two armed " Krishna " ! Both Laxmi and Saraswati were

childless. Then from the pours of Krishna countless " Gopas "

incarnated. From pours of Shri Radha countless " Gopis " manifested.

My understanding is that Gopis were infertile, childless !

 

In " Vriddha Suryarun Karma Vipaak " Scripture it is stated:

 

PURVE JANUSHI YA NAARI GARBHA GHAAT KARI HYABHOOT!

GARBHAPAATEN DUKHARTA SAATRA JANMANI JAAYATE !! (477/1)

 

A Lady who had aborted in past lives, suffers in this life on

account of being childless!

 

VANDHYEYA YA MAHABHAAG PRICHHATI SWAM PRAYOJANAM!

GARBHAPAATRATA PURVE JANUSHYATRA PHALAM TVIDAM !!

 

If some Lady asks why she is issueless, infertile in this life?

Answer is due to abortion in the past life. ( 659/1; 856/1; 921/1;

1857/1)

 

GARBHAPATAN PAPADHYA BABHOOV PRAGBHAVEANDAJ !

SAATREVA TEN PAAPEN GARBHESTHERYA NA VINDATI !!

 

O Arun ! One who aborts in prior life, can not bear child in present

life ! ( 1187/1)

 

As simple as that !

 

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

-----------------------------

Woman Power!

by TA Ramesh

 

Without Shakti, Siva cannot do any duty in all the worlds;

Without power, no matter can be active in the Universe;

Without soul, human body cannot survive in the world!

 

Without mother, children cannot grow hale and healthy;

Without wife, husband cannot maintain family and children;

Without woman, man cannot love and live in the world!

 

Beauty, intelligence and love are the aspects of personality

That helps women stand unique in the world;

But, so emotional by nature that it's impossible

For a woman to keep secrets in her heart;

And so, women let the cat out of the bag easily!

 

Hence women show the skeleton kept in the cup-board

Long to anyone who moves them most!

That's why taboos and restrictions imposed on women

Are perhaps rigorous and heartless in many religions,

That are, now, slowly removed by social reforms

By great movement leaders in the modern world.

 

Literature is also full of the Power of Women

As the Main Theme everywhere in the world!

Without the beautiful woman, Helen at the center of the story,

How can Homer's Iliad ever exist in the world?

Without the virtuous woman, Sita in Valmiki's Great Epic,

Ramayana can ever be read so long?

 

Thousands of years, by law and religion,

Women are kept as under-dogs to men;

Women are not just the Weaker Vessels,

Without whose encouraging support

Vessels of Tears won't survive in the world;

Without the knowledge, intelligence and support

Of Woman Power, no family

Can sustain, develop and survive!

 

with regards

Dilip Ravindran

----------------------------

 

PRIOR POSTING

Namaste,

 

Manu's verse ' yatra naaryastu pUjyante ramante tatra devatAh' ( the

gods rejoice/ are happy, where the woman is worshipped) is, I feel,

a powerful message to inculcate respect for women at whichever stage

she may be.

 

Shubhamastu

Anuradha Choudry

------------------------------

-Shree Hari_

 

Clarification: I was reflecting on a place where I once lived long

ago, I was not in poverty but I saw much of it. I would never ever

imply that one should hold a dagger, as it were, at peoples throat,

and demand they follow, rules on their personal behavior , it is the

opposite to what I am. Options can be shown to them, not killing.

 

Many people revert to medicines of some sort or another, for various

conditions, and it often means the death of some organism or other.

In reality many are based on herbs, and a vegetable origin.

In passing my preference is homeopathy.

 

If I get or any person gets bitten by a snake around here, then to

the hospital quick smart, for an antidote, not to is death. (why die

if one can prevent it?)

 

Driven by compassion one would like to see people live life in

comfort and happiness, why not?

 

Yes Divine Feminine 'Shakti', (she is universal), has been suppressed

for thousands of years, and the world has become unbalanced, she has

to sit with her consort once more.

 

My thoughts are exhausted on the subject, I will just read on.

 

With Respect and Divine Love,

 

Mike Keenor

--------------------------------

 

Raam Raam Raam

 

Great Suggestion is that either you dont make efforts to remain

healthy, to cure any illnesses OR we are justified in stopping new

births into this world. Either you control death or we shall control

birth. As simple as that. Why you are taking medicines to cure

fever ? If you are taking medicines, then we shall abort the child.

What shall the child do in this planet? Oh No ! Kill him. Modern

societies cant tolerate this non sense of humans coming on this

planet so fast. Where is the space ? Where is housing for them ? Who

will arrange for their food, water, upkeep, maintenance? How costly

are the living now a days ? We want freedom ! We have come on this

planet, and after applying our minds we have concluded that in

modern societies such non sensical obstacles to sensual pleasures is

unwarranted ! Kill them . Stop them from coming to this world. Now

that we have come into this planet, where is the need for any other?

It is these new arrivals that has made this world so bad, and

unlivable. No , Sorry ! We cant let them enter. Kill the fetus.

Simply kill ! All problems are only because of that only ! Kill the

fetus in the womb itself. Suck the life out of it. Let us enjoy. We

never wanted the child. We just wanted to enjoy the human life. From

where this conception hascome ? Oh , dont worry kill the fetus ! We

are modern, we are not orthodox people. If we dont stop human beings

from coming to this world, then what shall be the difference between

us and animals. Animals mate only when there is season for mating.

They have to exercise restraints and disciplines- not the human

beings. Animals are animals only because they mate only when there

is a season. We are not animals. We are human beings. We shall mate

anytime we want - morning evening, day, night, January, April, June

any time, any month. What a fun ! What an obstacle to this fun is

this conception. That is spoil sport. Kill the fetus. After all we

are privileged, we are intelligent. We can invent devices to kill

them anytime. Science is pretty advanced. Vacuum cleaners. Suck the

life out of that creature. What the fetus thought we are so stupid.

Gone are those old concepts of father, mother, protector ! Non

sense. We have mind, intellect, beautiful body. This conception

is undesirable - a simple nuisance! We have thought over it, all

problems are only because of increase in population. From where the

additional income will come? From where we shall feed the children ?

No ! Not Possible!! Our leaders also say so. Entire economy is in

mess only because of this over population. Enjoy mating, but kill

fetus. Where is the need for child here ? Shall we eat ourselves or

get entangled in arranging food for them ? Are we so stupids ? Come

On ! Either you control death or we shall abort !!! We are modern

humans. Kill the fetus. No arguments. Kill ! If you want to live

peacefully - murder ! Or Control Death !

 

Raam Raam Raam !

 

Beenani S

 

------------------------------

Dear Vipra Bandhavaha, evam itare suhridaha,

We must avoid debates and discussion on which modern educated and so

called Western feminist women will have strong view. It is a pity

that they could destroy what they cannot create. See the ten per

cent of married couples who long and yearn for children and are not

blessed so. Think deeply, do not impose your views on others.

Vriddha Divakarosmi Bhoh.

 

------------------------------

Jai Hanuman

 

People often say if the population is not controlled there will be

shortage of eatables on the planet. This poverty , mal nutrition are

only because of population growth. Hence population control is the

answer for all these menaces confronting humanity. Wrong are they!!

Patently wrong ! Absolutely wrong !

 

Taat Shree ( Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj) said that kind of actions

which so called intelligentia advocate to support population

control, kind of sins which are increasingly getting legalised -

what to say eatables and food grains , one will not even get water

as a result .

 

Oh What a pity Jee ! A human being wants to live comfortably and in

order to do that, he wishes/wants to put obstacles in another human

being, in it's being born ! Is that humanity ? That is how you feel

one can bring happiness, order, harmony, pleasure in human life?

Such arguments are in reality a garbage advanced by power hungry

stupid politians to justify mis-management of existing resources and

mislead. Economics !! Sheer Nonsense !

 

Indeed the intellect can get into the spell of what is stated in BG

18:32. This is Kaliyuga Jee. This is how at the last phase of time

cycle, the humans can become. It will worsen in times to come. Ever

heard the term " cannibalism " ? Humans are heading towards the same.

 

Get liberated Jee, Realise Paramatma, O Dear Sadhaks Jee, as fast

as you can. Future will unfold else the circumstances and scenes

which you will never want to see again. Who have been left?. Those

who from Satyuga, to Treta to Dwapar till today have always set

example of BG 18:32. Most of us are in that zone only. Hurry up

Please Jee!

 

See how do they perceive - Hell with your coming on this planet, we

have come first and now we shall not allow you to come ! We will

enjoy the physical relationship, privilege, without letting you

come in Jee. Don't you know who we are Jee? Humans , Humans ! We

are humans !

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

--------------------------

------------------------------

 

Hari Om

 

I am in perfect agreement with Mahalaxmi Dasi and Mike Keenor. Of

course Mira Dass was immaculate as usual, completely relevant and

absolutely correct. Frankly, I can't say so for most of the views of

Mr Naga Narayana. If he wants as a sadhak to know as to why I feel

so , we can discuss briefly through short notes the reasons thereof.

 

Mike- you are right in most of your observations regarding birth

control pills also. That is not bad. But good is copulation timing

and male condoms. Better is " control " over the very desire and the

Best is mating only for giving birth ! ONLY WITH THAT PURPOSE !!

 

Reply of B Sathyanarainji is 100 percent right. No doubt about

that ! Mahalaxmi Dasi's response is one of the best write ups on the

subject , I have ever read.

 

Certainly Sobhanaji. Shame on the males can only be and rightfully

be attributed by females who are 1000 times more able, better and

powerful than males. All powers arise from female - Goddess

Shakti . All glories and happiness in this world arises out of

Goddess Laxmi- again a female. Mother Nature is a female.. You are

entitled to say so ! Sanatan Dharma is in favour of your entitlement

to do so ! My compliments as a sadhak .

 

Operations of males/females so that there is no conception is

extremely bad act. You get disentitled to perform many rituals and

you don't return to God and atmosphoric airs, what was received by

you - for the reasons best known to you only.

 

I have heard this from elders (don't remember if I read somewhere)

that Goddess Mahalaxmi had aborted a child in some human life. Even

after having Lord Naraina (Lord Vishnu) as her husband, she could

never become mother again. As simple as that !!

 

How a man is a man, if he has no powers to become father, has no

reproductive capacity ? Just How? How a woman is a woman if she has

no powers to become mother, has no reproductive capacity ? Just how?

 

But Mike , I really could not understand any relevance of your

reference of over population at the near by place. Really ! If you

mean to say that over population is not desirable and must be

controlled by any one , then I beg to differ with you. We can have a

deliberation on this. Divine deliberation ! Real Satsanga !! Example

setting form of satsanga !

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

----------------------------

 

I agree with you Shobhnaji, thousand percent. Shame on us to keep

treating the women folk with deep rooted disrespect.

 

To others, this is a social issue. And hence does not befit this

forum. Therefore, I desist to respond to the other queries

raised ... Mahabharata and Bhagavadgita are as useful to the society

as to a spiritual aspirant. But … that needs a different forum.

Therefore, let me be brief ...

 

To Dasiji, Vyaasji, Mike and others who have commented on the

feutus's freedom to take life … my question is regarding the freedom

of the person living. Our poor brothern in India has paid heavily on

the rape, violation and enslavement for more than a millenium thanks

to the wrongly preached spiritual values in social life. Again, the

problem is not in the great spiritual values … but, in the

preaching. Bhagavan Vyaasa warns sternly … Na buddhidhedam janayet …

never preach these values … they are only for seekers. Because,

those who do not understand the depth of concepts such as Ahimsa

(non-violence) and Shaanti (peace) would let their natural cowardice

reign their lives. It is the responsibility of a saint to

acknowledge that the world cannot be saintly. Whoever tried to

spread sainthood in the history has achieved nothing but social

fragmentation … sainthood never appeared in humanity so far.

Therefore, if at all spirituality helps, it should let the humans be

just humans first from social perspective.

 

Dasiji feels that the death is not a Godly act while birth is a

Godly act. If their exists a devil against the God, I can only pity

such appreciation of God. Good and bad are our creation in our

illusions. Just because we love birth and hate death, we cannot

project the same ignorance on God. Birth and death are both God's

gifts to us. We should treat both the same way with absolute

respect. If we cannot, at least we should not wield hypocracy to

suit our beliefs.

 

God is not their to protect anybody but has provided everything to

do so oneself. Krishna never fights ... Arjuna has to. If God " had

to " protect, he would have protected the violation of freedom of a

woman in the first place. One who suffers has all the right to

respond to one's own suffering in one's own way. Spirituality cannot

trespass its compassion to preach either way. Such judgment will be

as lopsided as of the Bramhin who tried to interfere with an eagle's

attempt to eat its food, a snake.

 

Vyasji has quoted Karna … the goodness captive in the bad … nothing

but a slave to the bad … committed to serve the bad till death. What

is the use of such goodness? In fact, more harmful to the society!

 

Again, the society should be The Bhima who pulls out the heart of

the beastly violaters enroute. Incidentally, he does not need

Krishna's intervention because Krishna's approval is inherent in all

his actions.

 

Respects.

 

Naga Narayana

 

---------------------------

Namaste

 

DAADU DUNIYA BAAWARI , FIKAR KARE GELI !

ROTI DESI RAMJEE, DOPAARA PELI !!

 

Said Sage Daaduji

 

Mad has gone this world ! Absolutely crazy. It is worrying

unnecessarily out of stupidity. God will provide meals to you before

noon time.

 

Mr Naga Narayana - Worry not ! There is one creator, preserver and

destroyer , called, Paramatma ( Ever heard this name?) who will take

care through Mother Nature about birth, death, fame, illfame,

happiness and sorrow.

 

Said Sage Vashishtha to Bharatji

 

AHO BHARAT BHAAVI PRABAL, BILAKH KAHAT MUNIRAAJ !

HAANI LAABH JEEVAN MARAN, JAS APJAS VIDHI HAATH !!

 

O Bharat ! Destiny is very powerful. Profit, Loss, Death, Birth,

Fame and Ill fame are controlled by Destiny only.

 

Stop giving reasons. Simply dont disturb the Laws of Nature . You

have no rights to do that. What if our fathers also thought in the

similar manner? How we would have been able to become humans then?

Dont we run to a doctor if urine stops ? We are that weak ! Why

should we take responsibility of Creator on our weak shoulders?

Stupidity is that- Isnt it ?

 

HAM EK KHILONE HAIN, EK AISE KHILAADI KE !

JISKO ABHI SADIYON TAK YEH KHEL RACHAANA HAI !!

 

We are toys in the hands of that player, who is yet to continue this

world for centuries and centuries.

 

Chesta Vinod

-----------------------------

Priya Sadhaks

 

Sobhanaji has indeed expressed herself naturally and therefore

powerfully. But only in writing " Shame on you all " ! On balance

there was nothing .

 

Madam ! None is bad here!! Change the vision and you shall start

seeing the ultimate good here ! Try it !

 

Why inflict any shame on any one?

 

At the lotus feet of all of you and of Paramatma

 

MM Purohit

 

 

===============================================================

 

PRIOR POSTING

My dandavats to all in this forum....

 

In regard to the concept of taking pills to prolong health being

" hypocritical " if one is against pills to stop birth......I am

shocked that one with knowledge would dare equate the two concepts.

Doesn't the Supreme Lord appear as Dhanvantari, to give knowledge of

herbs to help human beings? Where is there any reference where the

Supreme Lord would say, " yes, abort this child " ? Anyone can say

anything, but one must analyze according to scripture, if he or she

is to truly benefit the cause of humanity.

Also, I believe it is a myth that there is overpopulation. I

truly believe that mother Bhumi can expand her form, if needed, she

is alive....she is not dead matter. The problem today is

mismanagement of the resources. In the time of Prthu Maharaj,

another incarnation of the Lord mentioned in the Srimad Bhagavatm,

mother earth also withheld fruits and vegetables and grains, as there

was so little sacrifice in the human hearts taking place. On the

threat of Prthu Maharaj, she agreed to produce abundantly. Are

there those who think these stories are simply folk lore?

Again, anyone can say anything, but the laws of material nature

will act, regardless. If I say that the sun will rise in the west,

I can say it every day til I leave this world, but will it happen?

No, it will not. I cannot change the laws of nature. Killing is

sinful, attempting to prevent a soul from entering a womb using any

birth control is sinful, and reactions will come whether one

believes or not. This is the law of karma. Otherwise, if this were

not true, it would stand to reason that there is nothing wrong with

unlimited illicit sexual activity. Yes, just use birth control,

have abortions, enjoy your body all you choose...IS THERE ANYONE WHO

CAN SUPPORT THIS TYPE OF MENTALITY FROM A RELIGIOUS OR DEVOTION TO

GOD STAND-POINT? I don't believe it is possible.

Also, it may be true that the perpetrator of rape is a

rascal....but a woman cannot justify her act of murdering an unborn

child merely because a male chose to act sinfully. The two sins do

not balance each other out. Women must return to their role of

being protectors of society, of righteousness...with no " attitude "

of hatred toward the ignorance of males, otherwise the love and grace

of Laksmi will never again flow abundantly on this planet.

The " blame game " should not be for those of saintly character.

 

Respectfully submitted,

Mahalaksmmi Dasi

-------------------------------

-Shree Hari-

I found the comments by Naga Narayana and Meera Das absorbing, the

full spectrum as it were.

OK there was a program on TV here, that showed an abortion, not

simulated, the real thing, the apparatus used was a sort of vacuum

device the sucked the life from the womb.

As I watched this, I experienced something unusual, I had no

emotions, it was as if I were stone, no anger no horror, I was in the

presence of demonic evil, somehow my emotions retreated, my defenses

were up, sometimes evil can be so great it seems, that words and

reactions have no place.

What I saw, I never want to see again,.

Preventing conception, is not killing of life, there is timing of

copulation, condoms, barriers, and birth control pills; they do not

abort, I personally think that the birth control pill may have

dangers, as it interferes with normal bodily functions.

However if the pill prevents the resort to abortion, then so be it.

If a woman is raped, the fetus is not the intruder, the brute who

raped her is. Punish him by the full force of the law, not the fetus.

(I understand in some countries, it's almost impossible to be charged

with rape, and the victims can be punished, how terrible!)

 

I have personally witnessed, the stinking mire that over population,

poverty, animals and humans living in close proximity, the over

powering smell of camels, goats , and sewage, and what it does to

people.

 

So on the subject of abortion, I see strength in Meera Das point of

view, and on birth control, I think Naga Narayana, has sound

arguments.

 

With Respect and Divine Love.

 

Mike Keenor

------------------------------

What about the karma of the men who rape? All the views expressed

here do not take into account that women are human beings, have

feelings and have the right to perhaps cleanse themselves of the

sins committed by men. Abortion is the only way to cleanse such sin

committed by men, who are " protectors " and hide behind religious

views.

 

Shame on all of you.

Shobhna S. Kumar

-------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Hari Om

 

Under no circumstance, even if the circumstance is life

threatening - the sin of abortion should not be done.

Any happenning in our life is outcome of our own karma meted out by

God's laws through nature. Law of Karma is precise and accurate in

its operation.

 

Every incidence has kripa (benevolence) of God hidden in it. Every

adverse incident provides you an opportunity to get closer to God by

right conduct and right utilisation of given circumstance. The human

birth has not been given for petty comforts and worldly pleasures.

It is a challenging, sadhan ( striving for God Realisation) form of

life. The austerity resulting from given adverse circumstances is

God sent/willed as per our own prior deeds.One must take such God

sent austerities as an opportunity for spiritual advancement. One

must perceive the human life as a special form of life- not to enjoy

worldly pleasures but to happily do one's duty without caring for

one's right and another's duty. Job is already on hand, of giving

birth to the innocent child, the duty is already on hand. The

aggrieved should take it so, give birth to the child, and thereafter

she may handover the child to orphanage etc.

 

One must be " careful in " doing " , and happy in " happening "

(result) " . No circumstance can force you to commit new sins.

 

Sanatan Dharma Scriptures deal with every type of circumstance.

Similar circumstance was faced by Kunti also. Kunti was mother of

Karna conceived when she was unmarried through Sun. She gave birth

to the child and silently surrendered the child to the mother

nature. Karna went on to be a part of history forever. Karna earned

admiration of all , including from Lord Krishna. He was one of the

greatest philanthropist the Indian soil has ever produced. He

redefined the art of giving/donating/ renunciation. He was " tyaag

murti " . Karna was the eldest son of Kunti- elder than

Yuddhister/Bhim/Arjuna/Nakul/Sahdev.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

--------------------------

HELLO SIR,

Your own conscience is the best guide. follow it. In so doing see

that your action does not harm the other person. Follow the maxim "

do unto others what you expect from others " That's what the Mahatma

Gandhi said, " I look to my inner self for guidance when I am in

trouble " . So said Lord Buddha too.

Ramachander Homma

--------------------------

Dear Sadaks,

If a lady conceives, it is not her wish or effort. Many women even

after marriage do not concieve. Why? The child to be born is

predecided by the Karma of that soul. In certain cases the child

gets aborted naturally, which is no way connected with anybody or

Sin.

But to abort a child is wrong. The cause is abortion and the effect

is the lady who aborted the child, will have rebirth as lady who

will have no issues (children). This lady who aborted can even be a

tree in her next birth, where the tree does not yield fruits. The

rebirth depends on once Paapas (sins) and Puniyas (virtues).

Referance Garbopanashid.

B.Sathyanarayan

--------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

I resonate totally with the views expressed by Naga Narayanji on

this subject.

No action in itself is right or wrong without regard to

circumstances surrounding it.

An action such as abortion may be right in one set of circumstances

and wrong in another set of circumstances. In otherwords, actions

are not inherently right or wrong.

There are many examples in daily life where we can see this to be

true.

I think that right action comes to one who is steadfast on the path

of righteousness (dharma), and seeks all decisions from the Totality

of Being(THAT) and never as an individual! In such cases interest of

all parties involved in actions are duly considered by THAT. Such

actions are God taking actions through people for people.

Namaskaras........Pratap Bhatt

 

--------------------------

 

PRIOR POSTING

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

As our scriptures says - if we believe that we are the Atma (Soul,

Spirit, Individual Consciousness), and if we also believe that human

life is the rarest form of birth (1 of 8.4 million species in this

Universe), and that only in this human form of life, one can attain

freedom from all bondages, one can realize their true nature, one

can attain salvation, one can realize eternal bliss, one can develop

love of God… etc., then common sense says that what Swamiji says is

without any doubt to be accepted - i.e. we have no right to stop

the evolution of a Soul, by creating roadblocks in it's evolution

cycle. This roadblock that we place on another souls' progress, to

not allow it an opportunity for salvation, will definitely have it's

consequences and is a grave sin. Most of the times, we sin due to

desire for our own happiness, self protection, comforts, betterment,

selfish reasons, and if we look at it from that perspective, also

the reason for abortions are also mostly for the same reasons, for a

little convenience and happiness, we are destroying another life,

and not allowing it to be born as a human, a soul that could have

realized the Self / God, and attain salvation etc.

 

Swamiji has said it is briefly addressed in Gita, under demoniac

tendencies. Gita 16:9 " Prabhavantyu grakarmaanah kshayaaya

jagatohitaah. " " Not believing in the eternal soul, the demoniac

natured appear as enemies of the world, for its destruction. " Gita

16:9

Unknowingly we destroy and kill helpless lives, and are hoping the

we will be benefited. How can we be benefited? How can we attain

salvation?

" Jaan-jaanker mook, asamarth jivon ki hatyaa karte ho aur caahete ho

ki hamaaraa bhallaa ho jaaye; kaise ho jaayegaa? kalyaan kaise ho

jaayegaa ?

 

For their selfish motives, such demoniac people indulge in violence,

murder and usurpation etc., without thinking of the pain, which they

inflict upon others.

" Dharmasarvasva suno, aur sunker dhaaran kar lo. Jo aacharan apnese

pratikool ho, usko dusero ke prati mat karo. "

 

Looking at a broader more Universal perspective, who truly takes

care of the 8.4 millions species? Do we? What arrogance to think

that we alone have the right and the burden of responsibility for

that conceived fetus? In many countries, one has to wait for years

and pay a huge amount, to adopt a child. Our ego and selfishness is

causing us to not give this opportunity to another soul and to

instead sin.

 

Not only that, many women who visited Swamiji after having undergone

several abortions, found their bodies to be significantly weakened,

undergoing several irreversible health problems. (I am truly

unaware of the medical and health implications, as this is based

only on experiences / problems that women shared with Swamiji).

 

After listening to Swamiji / reading his thoughts from books for a

number of years, after listening to the way He responded to question

and answers, there was never a question that he could not answer to

one's satisfaction. He had thought about everything he shared,

deeply for a long time, before he even uttered a word or stated

something firmly. In my opinion, Swamiji and all the major

religions of the world that believe in pro-life cannot be wrong!

 

Hope this helps.

Meera Das

Ram Ram

-------------------------------

Sanity and Sanctity of Birth-Control and Abortion

 

Many religions are committed to the propaganda of the idea of anti-

abortion and anti-birth-control strongly even in the so-called

advanced societies such as West. I strongly advocate that this is an

extremely lopsided vision from both social as well as natural

persepctives. By the way, spirituality has nothing to do with it!

 

We hear a lot like " birth is God's Grace and hence we should not

intefere; any such intereference is the greed, selfishness and

arrogance of humans against God's Grace " . I agree with it completely

ONLY IF it is also appreciated in tandem that " death is also God's

Grace and hence we should not interfere with that as well " . Death is

part of the creation as much as the birth. Is it OK to exercise our

ego to interfere with THAT when we are trying all we could do to

avoid/postpone the death? Isn't it the same greed and arrogance in

action in this case as well? Are we not disgracing ourselves by not

believing God's will in our death??

 

My suggestion to the birth-promoters is, " do not take a single pill

to interfere with God's will in the deseases, aging as well as in

death. Then, you are entitled to claim that one should not

interefere with God's will. " Taking all medicinal help to promote

our survival rate and life span on one hand and rejecting the same

for birth control on the other hand is hypocracy. Such attitude is

utterly (1) anti-nature resulting in lopsided population growth of

one single species on this earth; and (2) anti-society resulting in

undue stress of life demands overwhelming the resources. As far as

death control is excercised, one should allow the birth control to

balance the act in any soceity. That is social sanity and that is

natural sanctity.

 

Again, promoting one's material life on this earth is not at all the

agenda of Bhagavad Gita. The agenda is to cleanse the life we have

already taken … to learn how to live it well and how to leave it as

well. That does not remove any of our social responsibilities and

natural obligations. One can get liberated from the social

responsibilities by accepting the nature – birth and death alike. On

the other hand, one cannot get liberated from the natural

obligations till one lives.

 

Also, abusing the spiritual texts for social promotion is incorrect

and can lead to become frantically religious and religiously

fanatic. Bhagavaan Vyaasa advocates to never preach spirituality to

one who cannot appreciate it for one with half-baked knowledge will

lead to natural catastrophies such as population explosion which

eventually culminates in social catastrophies such as wars.

 

Na buddhibhedam janayet agnyaanaam karmasanginaam |

Joshayet sarva karmaani vidvaanyuktassamaacharan ||

 

For social issues such as abortion one should adapt common sense and

social awareness that reflects the circumstantial reality. If the

woman is forced to bear a feutus against her will, she has all the

rights to terminate the same. I request the same preachers to catch

hold of the male beasts that cause such distress in the fisrt place

and terminate them instead. Nobody has any right to interfere in

this matter when one cannot share the burden of the socio-economical

implications let alone the physio-psychological distress imposed

upon the victim. Why should an innocent woman suffer because of a

beastly male? Society should be The Bhima who pulls out the heart of

such beasts enroute. Incidentally, he does not need Krishna's

intervention because Krishna's approval is inherent in all his

actions.

 

Respects.

 

Naga Narayana

------------------------------

Dear Sir ,

 

You mentioned the shloka:

" Yat paapam brahmahattyaa dvigunam garbhapaatane; Praayashchitam ne

tasyaasti tatsyaasyaago vidhiyate " (Parasharsmriti 4:20).

 

Please let me know if you know any more details about this Shloka.

 

I am planning to put up boards with slogan in the villages with this

verse picture of Lord Krishna and Radha and duly translated thus :

 

BRUNE HATYA JO KARE HOGA MAHAAPAP

VIDHATA KA USSKO LAGEGA BHANKAR SHRAAP.

 

Any idea of better slogan? or any other thoughts on this?

 

Prem Khullar

-------------------------------

 

PRIOR POSTING

Hare Krishna

 

Answer to Question 1

 

Prashantji, I am pasting the answer of your question from Swamiji's

book " Sadhan-Sudha-Sindhu " page 960.

 

Q. If it becomes compulsory for woman to abort the baby due to an

infection, then what should she do?

 

A. She will definitely incur the sin of abortion. For protecting

woman people abort the baby but this should not be done. What has to

happen will indeed happen. If the woman has to die then even after

abortion she will die. If she is destined to live longer then she

will not die even if she chooses not to abort. Whatever may be the

cause of death, it will only arrive when the time is up. So abortion

should never be done.

 

Q. Should abortion be carried out in case an unmarried woman becomes

pregnant?

 

A. That boy and girl should marry who had pre-marital sex. If the

marriage is not possible then also abortion should not be done. The

girl should nurture that child and give him/her to an orphanage or

give it to someone who wants to adopt a child.

 

If a woman is raped then the rapist will incur terrible sin. If the

woman has derived pleasure from that then she will also incur sin.

All sins emanate from sensual desire. So the amount of sin will be

in direct proportion with the pleasure derived by that woman. If the

woman did not take any pleasure then she will not incur sin.

 

If an unmarried woman is pregnant then her parents will also incur

sin for their carelessness. It is a must for parents that they take

utmost care of their daughter and not give her excessive

independence.

 

Q. If society comes to know about it then she will become infamous

and no one will marry her?

 

A. After committing sin one has to bear defamation. Abortion,

suicide and running from home. In comparison to these three sins,

it's better to bear the defamation. If no one is willing to marry

her then she should reside in her father's house and spend her life

in worshipping God. This will be penance for her which will destroy

her sins.

 

Q. If a married woman is raped and she becomes pregnant then what

should be done?

 

A. It is better for her to be quiet. If husband comes to know about

it then he should also remain quiet. The couple's slience is best

for them. In reality, one should always be attentive from the

beginning so that such kind of situations do not arise. My

suggestion is not for abortion because it is an ultimate sin

(MahaPaap).

 

Answer to Question 2

 

Shri Khullarji, you are indeed doing great social service by

rescuing women from committing sins like abortion etc. This society

needs people like you.

 

Gita doesn't specifically mention about abortion. It strikes the

root of sin i.e. desire and God has spoken at length on it. Read

Gita (3-36, 37 and 16-21, 23, 24)

 

Premji, Gitapress has published 2 books.

 

Matrishakti Ka Ghor Apman (Code 420)

Desh Ki Vartaman Dash Aur Uska Parinam (Code 617)

Check the details at www.gitapress.org. You can use these 2 books

for your purpose.

 

These 2 books are also included in a 1000 page book Sadhan-Sudha-

Sindhu (Code 465). It is a compilation of more than 40 books of

Swamiji's teachings.

 

Thanks,

 

Hare Krishna

Varun P. Paprunia

-------------------------------

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

From Gita Talk Moderator:

 

" Sadhan, Sudha, Sindhu " in Hindi by Swami Ramsukhdasji, can be

viewed online for free at:

 

http://www.swamiramsukhdasji.org/swamijibooks/pustak/pustak1/html/sad

hansudhasindhu/main.html

Ram Ram

 

-------------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, This passage has moved me deeply. One should still

think about the fact that abortion is wrong. Firstly when a woman or

a man, yes a man can be raped by a woman for his seed. QUESTION 1:

If raped, the fact is the baby formed is not at fault. One does not

have the right to kill a child just because of that fact.

What would be such a case when rape occurs and the child is aborted?

your comments please. Prashanth

---------------------

Dear Sir I read the SADAK dt 26 september 2008 regularly . I read

the following verse in your letter dated 27/09/08.

QUESTION 2: In the Paaraashersmriti - " Yat paapam brahmahattyaa

dvigunam garbhapaatane; Praayashchitam ne tasyaasti tatsyaasyaago

vidhiyate " Can you correctly guide me as to where do I find this

writing below, also does Gita make any reference to this? I wish to

quote it in my meetings in the villages against the female feticide.

(aborting female fetus)

thanks, Kindly do clarify and oblige,

prem khullar

-------------------------------

ADDITIONAL QUERY:

 

Do any of you have any more details on this shloka from Paaraasher

Smriti - " Yat paapam brahmahattyaa dvigunam garbhapaatane;

Praayashchitam ne tasyaasti tatsyaasyaago vidhiyate " . Kindly let me

know any other scriptures where abortion is mentioned as sinful.

Gita shloka does not clearly point to abortion per se. The source

is important, therefore do provide it, along with the quote /

shloka.

 

I am in process of creating slogans for big display boards for

villages and cities of Haryana where female feticide is spreading

like wild fire. Please suggest good slogan ! Please help

immediately.

Sincerely - Prem Khullar.

--------------------------------

 

:Shree Hari:

Ram Ram

 

26th September, 2008, Friday

Ashwin Krishna Dvaadashi, Vikram Samvat 2065, Shukravar

 

" Mana jaane sab baat, jaan boojh avaguna kare

kyon chaahat kusalaat, ker deepak koonye pade. "

 

At present times such terrible and fearsome sins are taking place,

that simply by listening, one's hair stands on ends, eyes become

filled with tears, and heart is deeply moved ! Ram Ram Ram, what

terrible unjustice, what fearsome sins are taking place, but your

attention is not going there at all ! Human body is said to be the

rarest of all all forms of life -

" Durlabho maanushyo deho dehinaam shunabhangurah " (Srimad Bhagavat

11:2:29)

" Labdhvaa sudurlabhmidam bahusambhvaante,

maanushyamarthdamnityampeeh dheerah " (Srimad Bhagavat 11:9:29)

" bade bhaag maanushya tanu paava. Sur durlabh sab granthnhi

gaava. " (Manas 7:43:7)

 

Such a rare human body, is being destroyed at the very beginning.

It is being cut up along with the jeev, and this is such a great

offense, it is such injustice, it is a terrible sin! My mind feels

immense pain, it is feeling great distress, but what to do! The

human body by which one can realize God, to not allow that human

body to even be born, and to destroy it, it is the ultimate sin !

To not allow some soul the opportunity to receive a human body, to

not allow that human body to even be born, to take medication from

the beginning and destroy it, through abortion or any other means.

One has stooped so low - not only to think about going to hell

themselves, but at the same time not even allowing another soul the

opportunity for upliftment, for benediction ! Now what is one to

do? Who to share this with? And who will listen to my point? Is

there no one listening ?

 

For ascetics it has been written in the scriptures to not travel

much during " Chaturmaas " (four months in a year during the rains).

Because during these month, due to the rains, every seed grows into

a sappling, which later grows into a tree. By extensive traveling,

walking, these seedlings come under the feet and are destroyed.

Therefore during this four month period, the ascetics do not walk

and roam around much, so that unknowingly no violence is done to any

life form. In Bhagavat it has been said, that if you wish to gain

victory over violence, then reduce the movement of the body -

" hinsaa kaayaadhyaneehayaa. " (Bhagavat 7:15:23). When there is

so much thought put into non-violence around immovable things, then

what to speak on the subject of movable beings? But nowadays, the

best of all movable life forms, better than even the devatas, the

human body, is being contemplated for destruction, what a state of

affairs we are in ! (to be continued)

 

From " Saadhan, Sudhaa, Sindhu " pg 946 in Hindi by Swami Ramsukhdasji

 

For full online discourses in Hindi, please visit Swami

Ramsukhdasji's website. http://www.swamiramsukhdasji.org

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