Guest guest Posted October 7, 2008 Report Share Posted October 7, 2008 Namaste and Jai Seeta Ram! I have been a recipient of your in depth information for a long time and gained considerably knowledge from it topics and contents. Can I ask if you can share your views on 'death' and if you could elaborate in details? Lots of information on the living, let's hear your katha on death with specific emphasis on Bhagavad Gita's views. Thanks, Dhaniram ---------------------------- GUIDELINES FOR POSTING A RESPONSE: 1. The group is focused on the Holy Gitaji, therefore, only responses which further clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will be posted. 2. Making reference of Gitaji shloka is highly encouraged - at least once in the response. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to substantiate your response. 3. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting sadhaka's time. Under no circustance the answer should be limited to half a book page, at the most 3-4 paragraphs. 4. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only. 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other organizations (we do not have the bandwidth to review links to determine if content is appropriate for distribution). 7. Complete reproduction of texts from any book is strongly discouraged, however partial cut - paste is acceptable and references may be made of the book or author(but not links to other sites). 8. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone number, address etc. 9. Please use appropriate judgement and only address the response to a particular individual, where it makes sense to do so. 10. Due to the large readership, only those responses will be posted which are in line with the general philosophy of taking Shrimad Bhagavad Gita as the reference. 11. Moderator will reject any content that does not meet guidelines. However, for expediency, moderator at his discretion, may modify / delete portions of the posting for mispelling, wordiness that is irrelevant to the overall core discussion, personal information, opinions / feelings etc. that do not align with guidelines. 12. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use of only Sanskrit words, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit bracketed wherever possible. 13. Any personal remarks over the knowledge of any sadhak or about the stage at which any sadhak is standing in his quest / sadhna / spiritual journey - must not be included in your posting. Also, there should not be any sarcasm towards fellow sadhaks in this spiritual learning and sharing. MODERATOR Ram Ram Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 8, 2008 Report Share Posted October 8, 2008 Namaste and Jai Seeta Ram! I have been a recipient of your in depth information for a long time and gained considerably knowledge from it topics and contents. Can I ask if you can share your views on 'death' and if you could elaborate in details? Lots of information on the living, let's hear your katha on death with specific emphasis on Bhagavad Gita's views. Thanks, Dhaniram -------------------------- NEW POSTING Shree Hari Ram Ram IN ENGLISH Death is of the body, not of the Self. When we do not ever die, then what to speak and what to listen? Thank you very much, Ram Ram, Sarvottam IN HINDI Mrutyu sharir ki hoti hai, swayam ki nahin. Jab apni mrutyu hoti hi nahin, toh kyaa kahe, kyaa sune ? Sahadhanyavaad, Ram Ram Sarvottam ------------------------------ Hari Om Death is indeed the disappearance of body and that death is the greatest joy. Death is not at any time , of the nature of complete destruction. The dead one is spoken of as lost. I consider that as untrue and improper. So does Gita and Sanatan Dharma in unison. Being born repeatedly , he is perceived , separated by space and time. Continuance in different wishes or imaginations of oneself is called death. The individual soul, remaining with its desires, departs leaving the body and dwells in a different body, as a monkey leaving a forest tree betakes itself to another tree. The individual souls are led here and there by their own individual desire or mental impressions in a different extended place and a different point of time. As the seer of a dream , who met death in his dream world, is again born to see a different dream consisting of waking state, so, that seer of the waking state , who met with death in the world of the waking state, is again born to see a different dream consisting of waking state ! The man who is dead in this world is declared as awakened elsewhere . After the loss of consciousness in death, all the worlds quickly become manifest completely to an individual soul, as visible objects appear by the opening of eyes. After death, the wealth of creation consisting of the visible objects of three worlds , arrives at perception just in a moment. Death does not lead to fear or danger. If death is complete annihilation, then there is the destruction of the disease of worldly existence. Being dead , if he is not born again , in this respect also, there is great prosperity and elevation ! Hence death always is a pleasant thing. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B --------------------------- Dear Sadaks, It is not Khatha as Dhaniram says. The forum is giving facts. The death is predecided based on ones previous birth Karmas. The fact of birth is because one has Karmas to his account. Karmas are destined to undergo. The period to undergo such Karmas, the place of birth, environment, parents, education, type of job, wife, brothers and sisterts, friends, etc are predecided by 27 stars which is computerised by virusless system. Once Karma effect of previous birth completes even if one is 16 years or 70 years old death takes place. Since it is destined if one lives as he likes, he is adding Karmas to his account of this birth to be passed over to next birth. Mr. Birla died in plane crash just before minutes of landing. Many are very well just before few hours of death. Death and birth are same side of one coin. The 6 children of Sri Devaki (mother of krishna) were destined to be killed by Kans. Ravana was destined to be killed by Sri Rama as such Sri Rama who had vknowledge of past, present and future crowned Vibushan as King of Sri Lanka much before war started. Death is certain but time is uncertain. But there are saints like Poodhanam, Tukaram went to heaven with body defiying death. Hanuman, Vibushan and few other were blessed as " Sriranjeevi " (alway living). B.Sathyanarayan ---------------------------- GUIDELINES FOR POSTING A RESPONSE: 1. The group is focused on the Holy Gitaji, therefore, only responses which further clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will be posted. 2. Making reference of Gitaji shloka is highly encouraged - at least once in the response. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to substantiate your response. 3. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting sadhaka's time. Under no circustance the answer should be limited to half a book page, at the most 3-4 paragraphs. 4. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only. 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other organizations (we do not have the bandwidth to review links to determine if content is appropriate for distribution). 7. Complete reproduction of texts from any book is strongly discouraged, however partial cut - paste is acceptable and references may be made of the book or author(but not links to other sites). 8. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone number, address etc. 9. Please use appropriate judgement and only address the response to a particular individual, where it makes sense to do so. 10. Due to the large readership, only those responses will be posted which are in line with the general philosophy of taking Shrimad Bhagavad Gita as the reference. 11. Moderator will reject any content that does not meet guidelines. However, for expediency, moderator at his discretion, may modify / delete portions of the posting for mispelling, wordiness that is irrelevant to the overall core discussion, personal information, opinions / feelings etc. that do not align with guidelines. 12. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use of only Sanskrit words, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit bracketed wherever possible. 13. Any personal remarks over the knowledge of any sadhak or about the stage at which any sadhak is standing in his quest / sadhna / spiritual journey - must not be included in your posting. Also, there should not be any sarcasm towards fellow sadhaks in this spiritual learning and sharing. MODERATOR Ram Ram Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 9, 2008 Report Share Posted October 9, 2008 Namaste and Jai Seeta Ram! I have been a recipient of your in depth information for a long time and gained considerably knowledge from it topics and contents. Can I ask if you can share your views on 'death' and if you could elaborate in details? Lots of information on the living, let's hear your katha on death with specific emphasis on Bhagavad Gita's views. Thanks, Dhaniram -------------------------- NEW POSTING Jai Hanuman Very good Jee. What a beautiful subject is this - Death ! " Tata " forever to this ever changing world and finding solace in the affectionate and loving eveready arms of Daddy, the Great. Dhaniram Bhaiyya ! Leave Dhan and become of Ram ! Jee Jee Shashikala ------------------------ Hari Om When the channels of bio energy receive the nourishment with their contractions and expansions on account of disease, then, the breathing abandons its own natural state in the body. When the airs or breaths that have gone in do not go out and vice versa on account of improper state of the channels of bio energy ( nadi-s) , then, due to the absence of movement of senses, there can be only memory and not sensory knowledge. When the air does not enter at all or go out, on account of agitation in the channels of bio energy in the body, then, he is declared as dead. When that body has become a corpse and the life force has gone to the state of external wind , the consciousness which is liberated from desires/mental impressions dwells in the own natural /obvious/sahaj state of one's true self. The name of that minute or subtle entity possessed of desires is declared as JEEVA. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ------------------------------ Dasara Navaratri Subhakankshalu " Art of Dieing " I started journey to reach my destination - took auto, then a bus ,next a train, then an aeroplane, and again a train, an auto and reached 'Destination'. All this journey is to reach my destination. The art of living is a comfort journey to reach final destination - a comfortable death, which blesses one without a need for another journey. It is said that the highest goal of human life to be blessed with Kaivalyam or Moksham or Mukti or Liberation . " What is the most wonderful thing on earth? " asked Yaksha to Yudhisthira. 'Aharnahanibhutani gachhantiha Yamalayam Seshahasthavaramichhanti kimaascharyamatahparam' " Everyday there go into the abode of Yama countless creatures. However, the living believe themselves to be immortal. Is it not the strangest thing on earth? " replied Dharmaraju. People don't want to die. All the rakshasaas like Ravanasura, Mahishaasura, Mushikaasura, Madhukaitabha, Bhasmaasura asked for boons of no death. Adi Sankaracharya, in Prasnottararatnamaalika 'Kim maranam - What is death? " Moorghatvam " " Ignoraance and foolishness " answered. " Kim Jeevitham - What is living ? " Anavadyam " " Living a faultless life " answered. " What is ignorance? " asked Yaksha and Yudhishthira replied " Not taking cognisance of one's duties is ignorance " Lord Krishna clarified us on death. ' Dehinosminyadhaadehe' just as boyhood, youth and old age are attributed to the soul through this body even so the death. 'Jaatasyahidhruvo mrutyuhu' for in that case death is certain for the born. The art of living is prescribed for learning the art of dieing. Then how to live artistically?. 'Yasmaannodvijateloko' , he who is not a source of annoyance to his fellow creatures, and who in his turn does not feel vexed with his fellow creatures and who is free from delight and envy, perturbation and fear. There is one thing worse than death to an individual. 'Akeertichapibhutani' infamy or ill will brought on a man enjoying popular esteem is worse than death. While living righteously and doing one's prescribed duties is desirable. 'Hatovaapraapsyasesvargam' , die and you will win heaven, asserted Bhagavad Gita. C.P.Gilman summarised philosophy of death. " Death? Why this fuss about death. Use your imagination,try to visualise a world without death - Death is an essential condition of life,not an evil " . All should learn art of living to die artistically with no another birth so that one need not worry about death again. Dr.Goli ------------------------- Namaskar. Jai Shri Ram. Regarding Death, Bhagavad Gita Ch 2 shlokaas 22 & 27 lay down crisply and precisely what we should know about and accept with grace! Our scriptures clearly state that Death is but a comma, a passing shower in the journey of life. As we do so we get the result and to enjoy or suffer that karma-phala, we take birth. Once a quota of Karma-phala is undergone in a life, that chapter closes and a new chapter opens as a new life, with the change-over being marked by what we call as Death. There is really nothing to be scared of Death; rather there is no meaning in getting scared, for Death is inevitable, just as Birth is. Our efforts should be to be good, do good, say good and see good, so that a new good life dawns! Major Ramanujam. -------------------------- Respected Sadhakas. Pranam Gita has said so much about death of a body. Refer (2/11-30) And said the truth and 100% truth. When a child is born, you do not know where it will live; what it will study, what profession it will follow. But it is known that one day it will die. Birth & death is a cycle of nature. The body cannot be alive for ever. Imagine a deathless world; wherein all generations of humans, plants, birds & all other species are alive. Some of them may be as old as you can imagine. What will be the condition on the earth ? Shall we have enough food for all? Shall we have enough space for all? Will the oxygen & ozone cover be adequate? The list can go on. Today we find people complaining of ill health from the age of 35 or so. The eyes need spectacles at 30 yrs; knees start rattling at 50 yrs. One can not see at 60 due to cataract; hearing loss starts at 60 yrs. So if there is deathless society, what will be our condition of those at an age of 200 or 300 or above ? But mother nature has made things easy. Do not be afraid of death. It is only a change of dress. People sing " Tum jio hajaron saal ... " at birthdays. Please remember it is a curse to wish so & not a blessing if it comes true. THESE ARE MY PERSONAL VIEWS. BUT PLEASE THINK ABOUT THEM With best wishes and pranam to all. Suhas Govind Gogate ---------------------------- -Shree Hari- I have pasted in some sound points from the Gitaji dealing with death rebirth and so on. B.G:- Just as a person puts on new garments after discarding the old ones, similarly, the living entity or the individual soul acquires new bodies after casting away the old bodies. (2.22) All beings are unmanifest, or invisible to our physical eyes, before birth and after death. They manifest between the birth and the death only. What is there to grieve about? (2.28) (B.G. 25-30 is worth reading in giving a rounded view.) After many births, the enlightened one resorts to Me by realizing that everything is, indeed, My manifestation. Such a great soul is very rare. (7.19) I like to take these thoughts a step further. I read an account that happened in India ,(many sadhaks could give name and place to this event better than myself, for sure). There was a holy man living near a town/village, his custom was to come down from his abode daily, to perform his sacred duties, in return the people of the town would offer sustenance to this man . One day the people of the town were surprised by this holy ones, appearance he was surrounded by a brilliant aura that all could see; that was his last day in body. A similar thing happened in the USA when a visiting swami, appeared in similar manner before a large audience of devotees. Again he passed from this physical world. Now I will now come to Qi or better known to most sadhaks as Prana. This is one time I will speak with true knowledge. In the arena as it were of the Martial Arts and Quigong, energy can be experienced, moving through the body, radiating from it and so on. It seems to be associated with those who are spiritual, it is coaxed not driven. (I will leave as thus). So the point I am making is, that which we may consider as the gross body, is far more than just that, and remember energy is indestructible, it can only change. After all, all is from the source Paramatman. With Respect and Divine Love, Mike Keenor -------------------------- PRIOR POSTING Shree Hari Ram Ram IN ENGLISH Death is of the body, not of the Self. When we do not ever die, then what to speak and what to listen? Thank you very much, Ram Ram, Sarvottam IN HINDI Mrutyu sharir ki hoti hai, swayam ki nahin. Jab apni mrutyu hoti hi nahin, toh kyaa kahe, kyaa sune ? Sahadhanyavaad, Ram Ram Sarvottam ------------------------------ Hari Om Death is indeed the disappearance of body and that death is the greatest joy. Death is not at any time , of the nature of complete destruction. The dead one is spoken of as lost. I consider that as untrue and improper. So does Gita and Sanatan Dharma in unison. Being born repeatedly , he is perceived , separated by space and time. Continuance in different wishes or imaginations of oneself is called death. The individual soul, remaining with its desires, departs leaving the body and dwells in a different body, as a monkey leaving a forest tree betakes itself to another tree. The individual souls are led here and there by their own individual desire or mental impressions in a different extended place and a different point of time. As the seer of a dream , who met death in his dream world, is again born to see a different dream consisting of waking state, so, that seer of the waking state , who met with death in the world of the waking state, is again born to see a different dream consisting of waking state ! The man who is dead in this world is declared as awakened elsewhere . After the loss of consciousness in death, all the worlds quickly become manifest completely to an individual soul, as visible objects appear by the opening of eyes. After death, the wealth of creation consisting of the visible objects of three worlds , arrives at perception just in a moment. Death does not lead to fear or danger. If death is complete annihilation, then there is the destruction of the disease of worldly existence. Being dead , if he is not born again , in this respect also, there is great prosperity and elevation ! Hence death always is a pleasant thing. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B --------------------------- Dear Sadaks, It is not Khatha as Dhaniram says. The forum is giving facts. The death is predecided based on ones previous birth Karmas. The fact of birth is because one has Karmas to his account. Karmas are destined to undergo. The period to undergo such Karmas, the place of birth, environment, parents, education, type of job, wife, brothers and sisterts, friends, etc are predecided by 27 stars which is computerised by virusless system. Once Karma effect of previous birth completes even if one is 16 years or 70 years old death takes place. Since it is destined if one lives as he likes, he is adding Karmas to his account of this birth to be passed over to next birth. Mr. Birla died in plane crash just before minutes of landing. Many are very well just before few hours of death. Death and birth are same side of one coin. The 6 children of Sri Devaki (mother of krishna) were destined to be killed by Kans. Ravana was destined to be killed by Sri Rama as such Sri Rama who had vknowledge of past, present and future crowned Vibushan as King of Sri Lanka much before war started. Death is certain but time is uncertain. But there are saints like Poodhanam, Tukaram went to heaven with body defiying death. Hanuman, Vibushan and few other were blessed as " Sriranjeevi " (alway living). B.Sathyanarayan ---------------------------- GUIDELINES FOR POSTING A RESPONSE: 1. The group is focused on the Holy Gitaji, therefore, only responses which further clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will be posted. 2. Making reference of Gitaji shloka is highly encouraged - at least once in the response. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to substantiate your response. 3. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting sadhaka's time. Under no circustance the answer should be limited to half a book page, at the most 3-4 paragraphs. 4. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only. 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other organizations (we do not have the bandwidth to review links to determine if content is appropriate for distribution). 7. Complete reproduction of texts from any book is strongly discouraged, however partial cut - paste is acceptable and references may be made of the book or author(but not links to other sites). 8. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone number, address etc. 9. Please use appropriate judgement and only address the response to a particular individual, where it makes sense to do so. 10. Due to the large readership, only those responses will be posted which are in line with the general philosophy of taking Shrimad Bhagavad Gita as the reference. 11. Moderator will reject any content that does not meet guidelines. However, for expediency, moderator at his discretion, may modify / delete portions of the posting for mispelling, wordiness that is irrelevant to the overall core discussion, personal information, opinions / feelings etc. that do not align with guidelines. 12. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use of only Sanskrit words, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit bracketed wherever possible. 13. Any personal remarks over the knowledge of any sadhak or about the stage at which any sadhak is standing in his quest / sadhna / spiritual journey - must not be included in your posting. Also, there should not be any sarcasm towards fellow sadhaks in this spiritual learning and sharing. MODERATOR Ram Ram Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 9, 2008 Report Share Posted October 9, 2008 Namaste and Jai Seeta Ram! I have been a recipient of your in depth information for a long time and gained considerably knowledge from it topics and contents. Can I ask if you can share your views on 'death' and if you could elaborate in details? Lots of information on the living, let's hear your katha on death with specific emphasis on Bhagavad Gita's views. Thanks, Dhaniram -------------------------- NEW POSTING Jai Hanuman Who dies Jee! Who takes birth ! The self neither dies nor is born anywhere. It only perceives this mistakenly like the confusion arising in a dream. The soul is mere consciousness. When and where possibly does it perish? In the case of its being distinct from consciousness , say, what else can a man be? Say, who has seen consciousness dead till this day- whose, which and how? Hundreds of thousands of bodies die. Consciousness is remaining imperishable. The names of life and death were invented only for that diversity of mere desires which the individual soul may experience in itself, Jee. Namaste Jee Jee Jee Shashikala --------------------------- Hare Krishna " Sab Jag Darte Maran Se Mere Maran Anand Kab Mariye Kab Bhetiye Pooran Parmanand " " The whole world is afraid of death, but my joy lies in death When shall I die and attain that Supreme Bliss " In his discourses, when speaking on topic 'Afraid of death' Swamiji would ask sadhaks to contemplate on whether they are prepared for the inevitable death. He would say - " If death comes today then are you ready to face it? If you are afraid of it then this means you have not completed your work. You might remember that in school days when teacher throws questions on a topic and if you have not studied it then you would try to hide yourself from the eyes of teacher. But if you have completed your homework then you would confidently raise the hand. Similarly if you are fearing death then it means you have not completed your work. The most important work of this human body is God-Realization. Just think over your life. The path which you have taken will that make you intrepid to death? If not then what are you planning to do in this human life.... " He would often say the above doha of Saint Kabir. From the book 'Ek Mahatma Ka Prasad' published by Gitapress,Gorakhpur " Sadhak's present spiritual practice can make his future a success. If one is steadfast in his spiritual practice then he won't have to fear death. Infact he will pleasantly wait for it. He is not afraid of death because he has completed the work of this human body. Then what would be the cause of worry? But one who is not utilizing his present and has left everything on future, one who is not prepared for his departure then he will have to fear death. On arrival of death he is dreaded and guilty. But at that moment he is unable to do anyting. A man's biggest helplessness and weakness is that whatever he knows he is not able to do that. " (Page 254 - 255) " A man is born crying and if he dies crying then what has he attained? What have you gained from human body? The greatness of this body is that we invite death with a smile " (Page 256) Every sadhak has experienced that the more he progresses on spiritual path the more fearless he becomes from death. Our Scriptures and Saints have said that on God-Realization even death comes to death. So true!! Thanks, Hare Krishna Varun P. Paprunia - Dear Sadhakas, Namaste! Just as good night sleep puts a temporary end to all " my " desires, fears, attachments, pleasures and pains, all of which are parading as " me-mine during waking hours " , the so called death puts an end to them permanently. I ask myself: Can I put an end to this " me " while living daily? If I can do it, then, Death is the greatest teacher I can have! For most of us living means relating to the world while engaging in Karmas. Here Gita's message is relevant in doing karmas without the false sense of " me-doer " . Thus real death is death of " me " , a false sense of separate existence based on my ignorance, and the only source of my suffering. Fortunately we can die while living only. So living is dying and dying is living. Every night one can die by examining hurts, selfish desires, fears, etc., obtained during the day and dying to them, making psyche like a clean slate for next day's freash start. Another point: in the death body disintegrates back into Universal Elements from which it was integrated at birth- space, air, fire, water, earth. Body is universal in nature, not personal, as it cannot survive in isolation. Mind is subset of human conditioning based on time and place of one's upbringing, on the substratum of Atman-Consciousness which is the only reality of " me " ! To me, thus inherited mind is same as one's karmas, impressions ridden Atman (sanskaras), due to identification with body-mind, which merges back upon death and is recycled back to new body. If one dispells the ignorance of believing to be an individual, by realizing the truth that one is only put together by such an Intelligent Universal Being(GOD-Brahman) for Divine play only and is not one's reality, one is free in this life! Nothing dies in all our dying! Thus one is Immortal Conscious Being, inspite of having physical body! One is never was/is/will be limited by birth-death of a body! This is what I learn from the so called Death! Namaskaras! .............Pratap Bhatt ------------------------------- Hari Om Then, infinite things spring up all round , such as the apprehension of space and time , the sky, things full of characteristic properties and actions and objects having stability till the end of the world. At the end of death , quite at once, one perceives the body in youth and also , space , time , activity , objects, the mind, the intellect, the senses and the like. When the flow of bio-energy in the channels of bio-energy is adverse or deprived and the creature indeed reaches the improper state of the vital airs or energy , then, his consciousness becomes, as it were, extinguished. Merely on account of the complete obstruction to the flow of bio- energy , when activity is extinguished , the body is declared as dead. Then, that person is named inert or senseless. When the man is dead , the vital airs are united with the atmospheric airs. All the directions are just filled with winds accompanied by vital airs pregnant with throbbing minds or thoughts. Within the atomospheric air, the vital airs of the dead exist. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ------------------------- Jai Hanuman Very good Jee. What a beautiful subject is this - Death ! " Tata " forever to this ever changing world and finding solace in the affectionate and loving eveready arms of Daddy, the Great. Dhaniram Bhaiyya ! Leave Dhan and become of Ram ! Jee Jee Shashikala ------------------------ Hari Om When the channels of bio energy receive the nourishment with their contractions and expansions on account of disease, then, the breathing abandons its own natural state in the body. When the airs or breaths that have gone in do not go out and vice versa on account of improper state of the channels of bio energy ( nadi-s) , then, due to the absence of movement of senses, there can be only memory and not sensory knowledge. When the air does not enter at all or go out, on account of agitation in the channels of bio energy in the body, then, he is declared as dead. When that body has become a corpse and the life force has gone to the state of external wind , the consciousness which is liberated from desires/mental impressions dwells in the own natural /obvious/sahaj state of one's true self. The name of that minute or subtle entity possessed of desires is declared as JEEVA. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ------------------------------ Dasara Navaratri Subhakankshalu " Art of Dieing " I started journey to reach my destination - took auto, then a bus ,next a train, then an aeroplane, and again a train, an auto and reached 'Destination'. All this journey is to reach my destination. The art of living is a comfort journey to reach final destination - a comfortable death, which blesses one without a need for another journey. It is said that the highest goal of human life to be blessed with Kaivalyam or Moksham or Mukti or Liberation . " What is the most wonderful thing on earth? " asked Yaksha to Yudhisthira. 'Aharnahanibhutani gachhantiha Yamalayam Seshahasthavaramichhanti kimaascharyamatahparam' " Everyday there go into the abode of Yama countless creatures. However, the living believe themselves to be immortal. Is it not the strangest thing on earth? " replied Dharmaraju. People don't want to die. All the rakshasaas like Ravanasura, Mahishaasura, Mushikaasura, Madhukaitabha, Bhasmaasura asked for boons of no death. Adi Sankaracharya, in Prasnottararatnamaalika 'Kim maranam - What is death? " Moorghatvam " " Ignoraance and foolishness " answered. " Kim Jeevitham - What is living ? " Anavadyam " " Living a faultless life " answered. " What is ignorance? " asked Yaksha and Yudhishthira replied " Not taking cognisance of one's duties is ignorance " Lord Krishna clarified us on death. ' Dehinosminyadhaadehe' just as boyhood, youth and old age are attributed to the soul through this body even so the death. 'Jaatasyahidhruvo mrutyuhu' for in that case death is certain for the born. The art of living is prescribed for learning the art of dieing. Then how to live artistically?. 'Yasmaannodvijateloko' , he who is not a source of annoyance to his fellow creatures, and who in his turn does not feel vexed with his fellow creatures and who is free from delight and envy, perturbation and fear. There is one thing worse than death to an individual. 'Akeertichapibhutani' infamy or ill will brought on a man enjoying popular esteem is worse than death. While living righteously and doing one's prescribed duties is desirable. 'Hatovaapraapsyasesvargam' , die and you will win heaven, asserted Bhagavad Gita. C.P.Gilman summarised philosophy of death. " Death? Why this fuss about death. Use your imagination,try to visualise a world without death - Death is an essential condition of life,not an evil " . All should learn art of living to die artistically with no another birth so that one need not worry about death again. Dr.Goli ------------------------- Namaskar. Jai Shri Ram. Regarding Death, Bhagavad Gita Ch 2 shlokaas 22 & 27 lay down crisply and precisely what we should know about and accept with grace! Our scriptures clearly state that Death is but a comma, a passing shower in the journey of life. As we do so we get the result and to enjoy or suffer that karma-phala, we take birth. Once a quota of Karma-phala is undergone in a life, that chapter closes and a new chapter opens as a new life, with the change-over being marked by what we call as Death. There is really nothing to be scared of Death; rather there is no meaning in getting scared, for Death is inevitable, just as Birth is. Our efforts should be to be good, do good, say good and see good, so that a new good life dawns! Major Ramanujam. -------------------------- Respected Sadhakas. Pranam Gita has said so much about death of a body. Refer (2/11-30) And said the truth and 100% truth. When a child is born, you do not know where it will live; what it will study, what profession it will follow. But it is known that one day it will die. Birth & death is a cycle of nature. The body cannot be alive for ever. Imagine a deathless world; wherein all generations of humans, plants, birds & all other species are alive. Some of them may be as old as you can imagine. What will be the condition on the earth ? Shall we have enough food for all? Shall we have enough space for all? Will the oxygen & ozone cover be adequate? The list can go on. Today we find people complaining of ill health from the age of 35 or so. The eyes need spectacles at 30 yrs; knees start rattling at 50 yrs. One can not see at 60 due to cataract; hearing loss starts at 60 yrs. So if there is deathless society, what will be our condition of those at an age of 200 or 300 or above ? But mother nature has made things easy. Do not be afraid of death. It is only a change of dress. People sing " Tum jio hajaron saal ... " at birthdays. Please remember it is a curse to wish so & not a blessing if it comes true. THESE ARE MY PERSONAL VIEWS. BUT PLEASE THINK ABOUT THEM With best wishes and pranam to all. Suhas Govind Gogate ---------------------------- -Shree Hari- I have pasted in some sound points from the Gitaji dealing with death rebirth and so on. B.G:- Just as a person puts on new garments after discarding the old ones, similarly, the living entity or the individual soul acquires new bodies after casting away the old bodies. (2.22) All beings are unmanifest, or invisible to our physical eyes, before birth and after death. They manifest between the birth and the death only. What is there to grieve about? (2.28) (B.G. 25-30 is worth reading in giving a rounded view.) After many births, the enlightened one resorts to Me by realizing that everything is, indeed, My manifestation. Such a great soul is very rare. (7.19) I like to take these thoughts a step further. I read an account that happened in India ,(many sadhaks could give name and place to this event better than myself, for sure). There was a holy man living near a town/village, his custom was to come down from his abode daily, to perform his sacred duties, in return the people of the town would offer sustenance to this man . One day the people of the town were surprised by this holy ones, appearance he was surrounded by a brilliant aura that all could see; that was his last day in body. A similar thing happened in the USA when a visiting swami, appeared in similar manner before a large audience of devotees. Again he passed from this physical world. Now I will now come to Qi or better known to most sadhaks as Prana. This is one time I will speak with true knowledge. In the arena as it were of the Martial Arts and Quigong, energy can be experienced, moving through the body, radiating from it and so on. It seems to be associated with those who are spiritual, it is coaxed not driven. (I will leave as thus). So the point I am making is, that which we may consider as the gross body, is far more than just that, and remember energy is indestructible, it can only change. After all, all is from the source Paramatman. With Respect and Divine Love, Mike Keenor -------------------------- PRIOR POSTING Shree Hari Ram Ram IN ENGLISH Death is of the body, not of the Self. When we do not ever die, then what to speak and what to listen? Thank you very much, Ram Ram, Sarvottam IN HINDI Mrutyu sharir ki hoti hai, swayam ki nahin. Jab apni mrutyu hoti hi nahin, toh kyaa kahe, kyaa sune ? Sahadhanyavaad, Ram Ram Sarvottam ------------------------------ Hari Om Death is indeed the disappearance of body and that death is the greatest joy. Death is not at any time , of the nature of complete destruction. The dead one is spoken of as lost. I consider that as untrue and improper. So does Gita and Sanatan Dharma in unison. Being born repeatedly , he is perceived , separated by space and time. Continuance in different wishes or imaginations of oneself is called death. The individual soul, remaining with its desires, departs leaving the body and dwells in a different body, as a monkey leaving a forest tree betakes itself to another tree. The individual souls are led here and there by their own individual desire or mental impressions in a different extended place and a different point of time. As the seer of a dream , who met death in his dream world, is again born to see a different dream consisting of waking state, so, that seer of the waking state , who met with death in the world of the waking state, is again born to see a different dream consisting of waking state ! The man who is dead in this world is declared as awakened elsewhere . After the loss of consciousness in death, all the worlds quickly become manifest completely to an individual soul, as visible objects appear by the opening of eyes. After death, the wealth of creation consisting of the visible objects of three worlds , arrives at perception just in a moment. Death does not lead to fear or danger. If death is complete annihilation, then there is the destruction of the disease of worldly existence. Being dead , if he is not born again , in this respect also, there is great prosperity and elevation ! Hence death always is a pleasant thing. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B --------------------------- Dear Sadaks, It is not Khatha as Dhaniram says. The forum is giving facts. The death is predecided based on ones previous birth Karmas. The fact of birth is because one has Karmas to his account. Karmas are destined to undergo. The period to undergo such Karmas, the place of birth, environment, parents, education, type of job, wife, brothers and sisterts, friends, etc are predecided by 27 stars which is computerised by virusless system. Once Karma effect of previous birth completes even if one is 16 years or 70 years old death takes place. Since it is destined if one lives as he likes, he is adding Karmas to his account of this birth to be passed over to next birth. Mr. Birla died in plane crash just before minutes of landing. Many are very well just before few hours of death. Death and birth are same side of one coin. The 6 children of Sri Devaki (mother of krishna) were destined to be killed by Kans. Ravana was destined to be killed by Sri Rama as such Sri Rama who had vknowledge of past, present and future crowned Vibushan as King of Sri Lanka much before war started. Death is certain but time is uncertain. But there are saints like Poodhanam, Tukaram went to heaven with body defiying death. Hanuman, Vibushan and few other were blessed as " Sriranjeevi " (alway living). B.Sathyanarayan ---------------------------- GUIDELINES FOR POSTING A RESPONSE: 1. 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Guest guest Posted October 10, 2008 Report Share Posted October 10, 2008 Namaste and Jai Seeta Ram! I have been a recipient of your in depth information for a long time and gained considerably knowledge from it topics and contents. Can I ask if you can share your views on 'death' and if you could elaborate in details? Lots of information on the living, let's hear your katha on death with specific emphasis on Bhagavad Gita's views. Thanks, Dhaniram -------------------------- NEW POSTING Jai Hanuman Very Good Varun Bhaiyya! Death of the death. Wow ! Yes ! Dr Goli- here is how what you wished in last para of your very good message can be achieved ! Vyasji Maharaj - Tu daal daal to main paat paat !! Death does not wish to kill that person on whose bosom the series of strings of desires passed through pearls that are sins or defects, is not fastened ! Mike Bhaiyya ! Any views on the below? Death does not wish to kill him whom mental agonies, which are insects for the creeper constituting the entire body and saws for the body tree in the form of sighs, do not cut. Death does not wish to kill him whom hopes or desires , which are multitudes of snakes on the body tree, with anxieties set as expanded hoods on the head, do not burn within. And to whom the serpent of avarice, filled with the poison of attachment and aversion and having its habitation in the cavity of one's own mind, does not eat. And to whom anger, which is the sub marine fire in the body-ocean , that has drunk the entire waters of DISCRIMINATION (viveka) , does not burn. And to whom Cupid does not torment intensely like a hard grinding machine which is filled, squeezing the mass of sesamum-seeds within. Death does not wish to kill him, by whom the repose of the mind is resorted to in the in the Supreme Self. Death does not wish to kill him whose mind, risen like a monkey which has fallen upon the chasm that is the body, is not trembling. Namaste Jee Jee Jee Shashikala -- What is Death? Death in itself is beyond one's cognition for the very reason that tha cognitive mechanism is completely broken at its very onset! Obviously, there are two apparently opposed views on it: Death is a myth and the death is the ultimate reality. Bhagavadgita and other scriptures provide the repurcussions of both views rather than generating any new view as such. Na praanena naapaanena martyo jeevati kashchana | Itarena tu jeevanti yasminnetou upaashritou || One does not live because of breathing or any other activity such as heart beats etc. They are just symptoms of life. The life is based in SOMETHING ELSE on which all such life-supporting activities depend upon. Once THAT is apperciated, the death is a myth. Manasevaidamaaptavyam neha naanaasti kinchana | Mrityossa mrityum gacchati ya iha naaneva pashyati || One can attain THAT UNISON through one's mind alone which otherwise keeps distracting itself and all its fellow elements to the variety in this world as per its perception. One who insists on variety is bound to chase the (notion of) birth being chased by the (notion of) death perpetually because the very basis of sustenance of any variance is the perpetual procession of birth-death cycles. Sasyamiva pachyate martyah sasyamivaajaayate punah | One whose mind insists the life to be bound by the space and time in terms of matter and energy has no choice but to follow the recycling of the same in terms of one's birth(s) and death(s). On the other hand, one whose mind has appreciated THAT SOMETHING ELSE which is the basis for all the life-supporting activities within which everything is established will remain intact as they are forever can utter, Na mrityurna shankaa na me jaatibhedah | Pitaa naiva me naiva maataa na janma || There is no birth to experience the death and hence all other relations including all doubts and beliefs such as the fatherhood and motherhood whither away in such case. Death is a myth churned out in one's cognition that is bound by time and space. One who respects such notion or understanding has no choice but to chase its opposite called birth being chased by the self-generated fear of the same. Jaatasya hi dhruvam mrithyuh dhruvam janma mritasya cha | Tasmaadaparihaaryerthe na tvam shochitumarhasi || One who believes that one has " gained " life through birth is bound to be afraid of " loosing " the same through death. One who doubts that one may loose one's life is helpless but to crave for a renewal of life through another birth. If the perceptions of birth and death are to be construed upon as true, one cannot help but to go through such cycles as such … in that case, what is the point in worrying about it?! There is no point in generating a new worry that we could not resolve it … because, (1) it cannot be resolved as such; (2) there is no need to establish the resolution as we can be happy without such resolution as such; and (3) even if we could get a resolution, what is the guarantee that we will be happy when we are not ready to be happy?! Whether death is certain or not, we can never know for sure. But, the fear of death is very certain in our cognition. Our scriptures always focus on what is certain in our cogniotion and prove beyond doubt that there is no reason to be afraid of death whether the death is a myth or not in one's appreciation. That is the view I greatly value in our scriptures. Respects. Naga Narayana. -- Hari Om Within the atmospheric air, the vital airs of dead exist. In the interior of the vital airs, the mind exists. Know the world as existing within the mind like oil in the sesamum seed. Then - after death- that individual is described by the word " preta " by those with established custom. Consciuosness , associated with mental impressions , exists like wind and fragrance carried by it. When the individual soul dwells in a different vision having abandoned this visible world, then he is of various forms or deeds as in a dream or as in a fancy , suited to such experiences. In that very place WHERE ONE DIES , one would become possessed of memory or understanding within, as in his earlier incarnation. Then only, at the end of insensibility of death, he perceives another body. Whosoever and as many individual souls or creatures as are dead, deprived of liberation , exist there in space, so many are those worlds or worldly illusions , severally and seemingly imperishable. NEXT : Experiences at the time of death ! Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ------------------------- PRIOR POSTING Jai Hanuman Who dies Jee! Who takes birth ! The self neither dies nor is born anywhere. It only perceives this mistakenly like the confusion arising in a dream. The soul is mere consciousness. When and where possibly does it perish? In the case of its being distinct from consciousness , say, what else can a man be? Say, who has seen consciousness dead till this day- whose, which and how? Hundreds of thousands of bodies die. Consciousness is remaining imperishable. The names of life and death were invented only for that diversity of mere desires which the individual soul may experience in itself, Jee. Namaste Jee Jee Jee Shashikala --------------------------- Hare Krishna " Sab Jag Darte Maran Se Mere Maran Anand Kab Mariye Kab Bhetiye Pooran Parmanand " " The whole world is afraid of death, but my joy lies in death When shall I die and attain that Supreme Bliss " In his discourses, when speaking on topic 'Afraid of death' Swamiji would ask sadhaks to contemplate on whether they are prepared for the inevitable death. He would say - " If death comes today then are you ready to face it? If you are afraid of it then this means you have not completed your work. You might remember that in school days when teacher throws questions on a topic and if you have not studied it then you would try to hide yourself from the eyes of teacher. But if you have completed your homework then you would confidently raise the hand. Similarly if you are fearing death then it means you have not completed your work. The most important work of this human body is God-Realization. Just think over your life. The path which you have taken will that make you intrepid to death? If not then what are you planning to do in this human life.... " He would often say the above doha of Saint Kabir. From the book 'Ek Mahatma Ka Prasad' published by Gitapress,Gorakhpur " Sadhak's present spiritual practice can make his future a success. If one is steadfast in his spiritual practice then he won't have to fear death. Infact he will pleasantly wait for it. He is not afraid of death because he has completed the work of this human body. Then what would be the cause of worry? But one who is not utilizing his present and has left everything on future, one who is not prepared for his departure then he will have to fear death. On arrival of death he is dreaded and guilty. But at that moment he is unable to do anyting. A man's biggest helplessness and weakness is that whatever he knows he is not able to do that. " (Page 254 - 255) " A man is born crying and if he dies crying then what has he attained? What have you gained from human body? The greatness of this body is that we invite death with a smile " (Page 256) Every sadhak has experienced that the more he progresses on spiritual path the more fearless he becomes from death. Our Scriptures and Saints have said that on God-Realization even death comes to death. So true!! Thanks, Hare Krishna Varun P. Paprunia - Dear Sadhakas, Namaste! Just as good night sleep puts a temporary end to all " my " desires, fears, attachments, pleasures and pains, all of which are parading as " me-mine during waking hours " , the so called death puts an end to them permanently. I ask myself: Can I put an end to this " me " while living daily? If I can do it, then, Death is the greatest teacher I can have! For most of us living means relating to the world while engaging in Karmas. Here Gita's message is relevant in doing karmas without the false sense of " me-doer " . Thus real death is death of " me " , a false sense of separate existence based on my ignorance, and the only source of my suffering. Fortunately we can die while living only. So living is dying and dying is living. Every night one can die by examining hurts, selfish desires, fears, etc., obtained during the day and dying to them, making psyche like a clean slate for next day's freash start. Another point: in the death body disintegrates back into Universal Elements from which it was integrated at birth- space, air, fire, water, earth. Body is universal in nature, not personal, as it cannot survive in isolation. Mind is subset of human conditioning based on time and place of one's upbringing, on the substratum of Atman-Consciousness which is the only reality of " me " ! To me, thus inherited mind is same as one's karmas, impressions ridden Atman (sanskaras), due to identification with body-mind, which merges back upon death and is recycled back to new body. If one dispells the ignorance of believing to be an individual, by realizing the truth that one is only put together by such an Intelligent Universal Being(GOD-Brahman) for Divine play only and is not one's reality, one is free in this life! Nothing dies in all our dying! Thus one is Immortal Conscious Being, inspite of having physical body! One is never was/is/will be limited by birth-death of a body! This is what I learn from the so called Death! Namaskaras! .............Pratap Bhatt ------------------------------- Hari Om Then, infinite things spring up all round , such as the apprehension of space and time , the sky, things full of characteristic properties and actions and objects having stability till the end of the world. At the end of death , quite at once, one perceives the body in youth and also , space , time , activity , objects, the mind, the intellect, the senses and the like. When the flow of bio-energy in the channels of bio-energy is adverse or deprived and the creature indeed reaches the improper state of the vital airs or energy , then, his consciousness becomes, as it were, extinguished. Merely on account of the complete obstruction to the flow of bio- energy , when activity is extinguished , the body is declared as dead. Then, that person is named inert or senseless. When the man is dead , the vital airs are united with the atmospheric airs. All the directions are just filled with winds accompanied by vital airs pregnant with throbbing minds or thoughts. Within the atomospheric air, the vital airs of the dead exist. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ------------------------- Jai Hanuman Very good Jee. What a beautiful subject is this - Death ! " Tata " forever to this ever changing world and finding solace in the affectionate and loving eveready arms of Daddy, the Great. Dhaniram Bhaiyya ! Leave Dhan and become of Ram ! Jee Jee Shashikala ------------------------ Hari Om When the channels of bio energy receive the nourishment with their contractions and expansions on account of disease, then, the breathing abandons its own natural state in the body. When the airs or breaths that have gone in do not go out and vice versa on account of improper state of the channels of bio energy ( nadi-s) , then, due to the absence of movement of senses, there can be only memory and not sensory knowledge. When the air does not enter at all or go out, on account of agitation in the channels of bio energy in the body, then, he is declared as dead. When that body has become a corpse and the life force has gone to the state of external wind , the consciousness which is liberated from desires/mental impressions dwells in the own natural /obvious/sahaj state of one's true self. The name of that minute or subtle entity possessed of desires is declared as JEEVA. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ------------------------------ Dasara Navaratri Subhakankshalu " Art of Dieing " I started journey to reach my destination - took auto, then a bus ,next a train, then an aeroplane, and again a train, an auto and reached 'Destination'. All this journey is to reach my destination. The art of living is a comfort journey to reach final destination - a comfortable death, which blesses one without a need for another journey. It is said that the highest goal of human life to be blessed with Kaivalyam or Moksham or Mukti or Liberation . " What is the most wonderful thing on earth? " asked Yaksha to Yudhisthira. 'Aharnahanibhutani gachhantiha Yamalayam Seshahasthavaramichhanti kimaascharyamatahparam' " Everyday there go into the abode of Yama countless creatures. However, the living believe themselves to be immortal. Is it not the strangest thing on earth? " replied Dharmaraju. People don't want to die. All the rakshasaas like Ravanasura, Mahishaasura, Mushikaasura, Madhukaitabha, Bhasmaasura asked for boons of no death. Adi Sankaracharya, in Prasnottararatnamaalika 'Kim maranam - What is death? " Moorghatvam " " Ignoraance and foolishness " answered. " Kim Jeevitham - What is living ? " Anavadyam " " Living a faultless life " answered. " What is ignorance? " asked Yaksha and Yudhishthira replied " Not taking cognisance of one's duties is ignorance " Lord Krishna clarified us on death. ' Dehinosminyadhaadehe' just as boyhood, youth and old age are attributed to the soul through this body even so the death. 'Jaatasyahidhruvo mrutyuhu' for in that case death is certain for the born. The art of living is prescribed for learning the art of dieing. Then how to live artistically?. 'Yasmaannodvijateloko' , he who is not a source of annoyance to his fellow creatures, and who in his turn does not feel vexed with his fellow creatures and who is free from delight and envy, perturbation and fear. There is one thing worse than death to an individual. 'Akeertichapibhutani' infamy or ill will brought on a man enjoying popular esteem is worse than death. While living righteously and doing one's prescribed duties is desirable. 'Hatovaapraapsyasesvargam' , die and you will win heaven, asserted Bhagavad Gita. C.P.Gilman summarised philosophy of death. " Death? Why this fuss about death. Use your imagination,try to visualise a world without death - Death is an essential condition of life,not an evil " . All should learn art of living to die artistically with no another birth so that one need not worry about death again. Dr.Goli ------------------------- Namaskar. Jai Shri Ram. Regarding Death, Bhagavad Gita Ch 2 shlokaas 22 & 27 lay down crisply and precisely what we should know about and accept with grace! Our scriptures clearly state that Death is but a comma, a passing shower in the journey of life. As we do so we get the result and to enjoy or suffer that karma-phala, we take birth. Once a quota of Karma-phala is undergone in a life, that chapter closes and a new chapter opens as a new life, with the change-over being marked by what we call as Death. There is really nothing to be scared of Death; rather there is no meaning in getting scared, for Death is inevitable, just as Birth is. Our efforts should be to be good, do good, say good and see good, so that a new good life dawns! Major Ramanujam. -------------------------- Respected Sadhakas. Pranam Gita has said so much about death of a body. Refer (2/11-30) And said the truth and 100% truth. When a child is born, you do not know where it will live; what it will study, what profession it will follow. But it is known that one day it will die. Birth & death is a cycle of nature. The body cannot be alive for ever. Imagine a deathless world; wherein all generations of humans, plants, birds & all other species are alive. Some of them may be as old as you can imagine. What will be the condition on the earth ? Shall we have enough food for all? Shall we have enough space for all? Will the oxygen & ozone cover be adequate? The list can go on. Today we find people complaining of ill health from the age of 35 or so. The eyes need spectacles at 30 yrs; knees start rattling at 50 yrs. One can not see at 60 due to cataract; hearing loss starts at 60 yrs. So if there is deathless society, what will be our condition of those at an age of 200 or 300 or above ? But mother nature has made things easy. Do not be afraid of death. It is only a change of dress. People sing " Tum jio hajaron saal ... " at birthdays. Please remember it is a curse to wish so & not a blessing if it comes true. THESE ARE MY PERSONAL VIEWS. BUT PLEASE THINK ABOUT THEM With best wishes and pranam to all. Suhas Govind Gogate ---------------------------- -Shree Hari- I have pasted in some sound points from the Gitaji dealing with death rebirth and so on. B.G:- Just as a person puts on new garments after discarding the old ones, similarly, the living entity or the individual soul acquires new bodies after casting away the old bodies. (2.22) All beings are unmanifest, or invisible to our physical eyes, before birth and after death. They manifest between the birth and the death only. What is there to grieve about? (2.28) (B.G. 25-30 is worth reading in giving a rounded view.) After many births, the enlightened one resorts to Me by realizing that everything is, indeed, My manifestation. Such a great soul is very rare. (7.19) I like to take these thoughts a step further. I read an account that happened in India ,(many sadhaks could give name and place to this event better than myself, for sure). There was a holy man living near a town/village, his custom was to come down from his abode daily, to perform his sacred duties, in return the people of the town would offer sustenance to this man . One day the people of the town were surprised by this holy ones, appearance he was surrounded by a brilliant aura that all could see; that was his last day in body. A similar thing happened in the USA when a visiting swami, appeared in similar manner before a large audience of devotees. Again he passed from this physical world. Now I will now come to Qi or better known to most sadhaks as Prana. This is one time I will speak with true knowledge. In the arena as it were of the Martial Arts and Quigong, energy can be experienced, moving through the body, radiating from it and so on. It seems to be associated with those who are spiritual, it is coaxed not driven. (I will leave as thus). So the point I am making is, that which we may consider as the gross body, is far more than just that, and remember energy is indestructible, it can only change. After all, all is from the source Paramatman. With Respect and Divine Love, Mike Keenor -------------------------- PRIOR POSTING Shree Hari Ram Ram IN ENGLISH Death is of the body, not of the Self. When we do not ever die, then what to speak and what to listen? Thank you very much, Ram Ram, Sarvottam IN HINDI Mrutyu sharir ki hoti hai, swayam ki nahin. Jab apni mrutyu hoti hi nahin, toh kyaa kahe, kyaa sune ? Sahadhanyavaad, Ram Ram Sarvottam ------------------------------ Hari Om Death is indeed the disappearance of body and that death is the greatest joy. Death is not at any time , of the nature of complete destruction. The dead one is spoken of as lost. I consider that as untrue and improper. So does Gita and Sanatan Dharma in unison. Being born repeatedly , he is perceived , separated by space and time. Continuance in different wishes or imaginations of oneself is called death. The individual soul, remaining with its desires, departs leaving the body and dwells in a different body, as a monkey leaving a forest tree betakes itself to another tree. The individual souls are led here and there by their own individual desire or mental impressions in a different extended place and a different point of time. As the seer of a dream , who met death in his dream world, is again born to see a different dream consisting of waking state, so, that seer of the waking state , who met with death in the world of the waking state, is again born to see a different dream consisting of waking state ! The man who is dead in this world is declared as awakened elsewhere . After the loss of consciousness in death, all the worlds quickly become manifest completely to an individual soul, as visible objects appear by the opening of eyes. After death, the wealth of creation consisting of the visible objects of three worlds , arrives at perception just in a moment. Death does not lead to fear or danger. If death is complete annihilation, then there is the destruction of the disease of worldly existence. Being dead , if he is not born again , in this respect also, there is great prosperity and elevation ! Hence death always is a pleasant thing. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B --------------------------- Dear Sadaks, It is not Khatha as Dhaniram says. The forum is giving facts. The death is predecided based on ones previous birth Karmas. The fact of birth is because one has Karmas to his account. Karmas are destined to undergo. The period to undergo such Karmas, the place of birth, environment, parents, education, type of job, wife, brothers and sisterts, friends, etc are predecided by 27 stars which is computerised by virusless system. Once Karma effect of previous birth completes even if one is 16 years or 70 years old death takes place. Since it is destined if one lives as he likes, he is adding Karmas to his account of this birth to be passed over to next birth. Mr. Birla died in plane crash just before minutes of landing. Many are very well just before few hours of death. Death and birth are same side of one coin. The 6 children of Sri Devaki (mother of krishna) were destined to be killed by Kans. Ravana was destined to be killed by Sri Rama as such Sri Rama who had vknowledge of past, present and future crowned Vibushan as King of Sri Lanka much before war started. Death is certain but time is uncertain. But there are saints like Poodhanam, Tukaram went to heaven with body defiying death. Hanuman, Vibushan and few other were blessed as " Sriranjeevi " (alway living). B.Sathyanarayan ---------------------------- GUIDELINES FOR POSTING A RESPONSE: 1. The group is focused on the Holy Gitaji, therefore, only responses which further clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will be posted. 2. Making reference of Gitaji shloka is highly encouraged - at least once in the response. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to substantiate your response. 3. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting sadhaka's time. Under no circustance the answer should be limited to half a book page, at the most 3-4 paragraphs. 4. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only. 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other organizations (we do not have the bandwidth to review links to determine if content is appropriate for distribution). 7. Complete reproduction of texts from any book is strongly discouraged, however partial cut - paste is acceptable and references may be made of the book or author(but not links to other sites). 8. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone number, address etc. 9. Please use appropriate judgement and only address the response to a particular individual, where it makes sense to do so. 10. Due to the large readership, only those responses will be posted which are in line with the general philosophy of taking Shrimad Bhagavad Gita as the reference. 11. Moderator will reject any content that does not meet guidelines. However, for expediency, moderator at his discretion, may modify / delete portions of the posting for mispelling, wordiness that is irrelevant to the overall core discussion, personal information, opinions / feelings etc. that do not align with guidelines. 12. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use of only Sanskrit words, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit bracketed wherever possible. 13. Any personal remarks over the knowledge of any sadhak or about the stage at which any sadhak is standing in his quest / sadhna / spiritual journey - must not be included in your posting. Also, there should not be any sarcasm towards fellow sadhaks in this spiritual learning and sharing. MODERATOR Ram Ram Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 16, 2008 Report Share Posted October 16, 2008 Shree Hari Ram Ram A couple of additional emails today ONLY, to clean out pending queue, as is performing bi-monthly administration/clean-up. From Gita Talk Moderator Ram Ram -------------------------------- Namaste and Jai Seeta Ram! I have been a recipient of your in depth information for a long time and gained considerably knowledge from it topics and contents. Can I ask if you can share your views on 'death' and if you could elaborate in details? Lots of information on the living, let's hear your katha on death with specific emphasis on Bhagavad Gita's views. Thanks, Dhaniram -------------------------- NEW POSTING -Shree Hari- Jeje Shashikalaji, You are inviting me out of my comfort zone, and since this form of verse is out of my common reference, I will let the feel of it guide my response. For no other reason, but to be of service to our brethren.(If possible). I will first talk of death, Shashikalaji. I am sure you know that a person can die and can suffer a painful death, and yet remain in body, to be re-born from the spiritual womb as it were. Thus at the death of the body, in such grace, what is there to die? The terrible imagery of the serpent, that portrays the dark forces of humanity, can be transmuted by the Divine Grace within, such a primordial symbol, (the serpent), can thus become a thing of great beauty, translucent, radiating a brilliant light, pulsating colors not of this world, you understand. Ah the fire that burns so deep can refine the soul and burn away the dross, all impurities and blemishes, leaving the Self standing like the purist spiritual gold bathed naked before the rising sun. Where then is death? With Respect and Divine ove, Mike Keenor ---------------------- The soul is immortal. So we should avoid the endless cycle of birth and death through meditation and good karmas in this birth. Hari Shanker Deo ----------------------- Hari Hari Dear bhagavatas, Could you please enlighten me of the following question? I want to know what is the end (gati) met by a good person who commits suicide per our shasthra (scriptures)? Also is there any parisharams (pains) associated? What are Gita's Views on this? Please provide Shloka (Verse) in Gita. Adien Sridharan Kadambi -------------- FROM GITA TALK MODERATOR Responses to above question will be a new TOPIC. Kindly substantiate with associated verses in Scriptures and not just opinions / beliefs. Ram Ram --------------- Jai Hanuman Very Good Varun Bhaiyya! Death of the death. Wow ! Yes ! Dr Goli- here is how what you wished in last para of your very good message can be achieved ! Vyasji Maharaj - Tu daal daal to main paat paat !! Death does not wish to kill that person on whose bosom the series of strings of desires passed through pearls that are sins or defects, is not fastened ! Mike Bhaiyya ! Any views on the below? Death does not wish to kill him whom mental agonies, which are insects for the creeper constituting the entire body and saws for the body tree in the form of sighs, do not cut. Death does not wish to kill him whom hopes or desires , which are multitudes of snakes on the body tree, with anxieties set as expanded hoods on the head, do not burn within. And to whom the serpent of avarice, filled with the poison of attachment and aversion and having its habitation in the cavity of one's own mind, does not eat. And to whom anger, which is the sub marine fire in the body-ocean , that has drunk the entire waters of DISCRIMINATION (viveka) , does not burn. And to whom Cupid does not torment intensely like a hard grinding machine which is filled, squeezing the mass of sesamum-seeds within. Death does not wish to kill him, by whom the repose of the mind is resorted to in the in the Supreme Self. Death does not wish to kill him whose mind, risen like a monkey which has fallen upon the chasm that is the body, is not trembling. Namaste Jee Jee Jee Shashikala -- What is Death? Death in itself is beyond one's cognition for the very reason that tha cognitive mechanism is completely broken at its very onset! Obviously, there are two apparently opposed views on it: Death is a myth and the death is the ultimate reality. Bhagavadgita and other scriptures provide the repurcussions of both views rather than generating any new view as such. Na praanena naapaanena martyo jeevati kashchana | Itarena tu jeevanti yasminnetou upaashritou || One does not live because of breathing or any other activity such as heart beats etc. They are just symptoms of life. The life is based in SOMETHING ELSE on which all such life-supporting activities depend upon. Once THAT is apperciated, the death is a myth. Manasevaidamaaptavyam neha naanaasti kinchana | Mrityossa mrityum gacchati ya iha naaneva pashyati || One can attain THAT UNISON through one's mind alone which otherwise keeps distracting itself and all its fellow elements to the variety in this world as per its perception. One who insists on variety is bound to chase the (notion of) birth being chased by the (notion of) death perpetually because the very basis of sustenance of any variance is the perpetual procession of birth-death cycles. Sasyamiva pachyate martyah sasyamivaajaayate punah | One whose mind insists the life to be bound by the space and time in terms of matter and energy has no choice but to follow the recycling of the same in terms of one's birth(s) and death(s). On the other hand, one whose mind has appreciated THAT SOMETHING ELSE which is the basis for all the life-supporting activities within which everything is established will remain intact as they are forever can utter, Na mrityurna shankaa na me jaatibhedah | Pitaa naiva me naiva maataa na janma || There is no birth to experience the death and hence all other relations including all doubts and beliefs such as the fatherhood and motherhood whither away in such case. Death is a myth churned out in one's cognition that is bound by time and space. One who respects such notion or understanding has no choice but to chase its opposite called birth being chased by the self-generated fear of the same. Jaatasya hi dhruvam mrithyuh dhruvam janma mritasya cha | Tasmaadaparihaaryerthe na tvam shochitumarhasi || One who believes that one has " gained " life through birth is bound to be afraid of " loosing " the same through death. One who doubts that one may loose one's life is helpless but to crave for a renewal of life through another birth. If the perceptions of birth and death are to be construed upon as true, one cannot help but to go through such cycles as such … in that case, what is the point in worrying about it?! There is no point in generating a new worry that we could not resolve it … because, (1) it cannot be resolved as such; (2) there is no need to establish the resolution as we can be happy without such resolution as such; and (3) even if we could get a resolution, what is the guarantee that we will be happy when we are not ready to be happy?! Whether death is certain or not, we can never know for sure. But, the fear of death is very certain in our cognition. Our scriptures always focus on what is certain in our cogniotion and prove beyond doubt that there is no reason to be afraid of death whether the death is a myth or not in one's appreciation. That is the view I greatly value in our scriptures. Respects. Naga Narayana. -- Hari Om Within the atmospheric air, the vital airs of dead exist. In the interior of the vital airs, the mind exists. Know the world as existing within the mind like oil in the sesamum seed. Then - after death- that individual is described by the word " preta " by those with established custom. Consciuosness , associated with mental impressions , exists like wind and fragrance carried by it. When the individual soul dwells in a different vision having abandoned this visible world, then he is of various forms or deeds as in a dream or as in a fancy , suited to such experiences. In that very place WHERE ONE DIES , one would become possessed of memory or understanding within, as in his earlier incarnation. Then only, at the end of insensibility of death, he perceives another body. Whosoever and as many individual souls or creatures as are dead, deprived of liberation , exist there in space, so many are those worlds or worldly illusions , severally and seemingly imperishable. NEXT : Experiences at the time of death ! Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ------------------------- PRIOR POSTING Jai Hanuman Who dies Jee! Who takes birth ! The self neither dies nor is born anywhere. It only perceives this mistakenly like the confusion arising in a dream. The soul is mere consciousness. When and where possibly does it perish? In the case of its being distinct from consciousness , say, what else can a man be? Say, who has seen consciousness dead till this day- whose, which and how? Hundreds of thousands of bodies die. Consciousness is remaining imperishable. The names of life and death were invented only for that diversity of mere desires which the individual soul may experience in itself, Jee. Namaste Jee Jee Jee Shashikala --------------------------- Hare Krishna " Sab Jag Darte Maran Se Mere Maran Anand Kab Mariye Kab Bhetiye Pooran Parmanand " " The whole world is afraid of death, but my joy lies in death When shall I die and attain that Supreme Bliss " In his discourses, when speaking on topic 'Afraid of death' Swamiji would ask sadhaks to contemplate on whether they are prepared for the inevitable death. He would say - " If death comes today then are you ready to face it? If you are afraid of it then this means you have not completed your work. You might remember that in school days when teacher throws questions on a topic and if you have not studied it then you would try to hide yourself from the eyes of teacher. But if you have completed your homework then you would confidently raise the hand. Similarly if you are fearing death then it means you have not completed your work. The most important work of this human body is God-Realization. Just think over your life. The path which you have taken will that make you intrepid to death? If not then what are you planning to do in this human life.... " He would often say the above doha of Saint Kabir. From the book 'Ek Mahatma Ka Prasad' published by Gitapress,Gorakhpur " Sadhak's present spiritual practice can make his future a success. If one is steadfast in his spiritual practice then he won't have to fear death. Infact he will pleasantly wait for it. He is not afraid of death because he has completed the work of this human body. Then what would be the cause of worry? But one who is not utilizing his present and has left everything on future, one who is not prepared for his departure then he will have to fear death. On arrival of death he is dreaded and guilty. But at that moment he is unable to do anyting. A man's biggest helplessness and weakness is that whatever he knows he is not able to do that. " (Page 254 - 255) " A man is born crying and if he dies crying then what has he attained? What have you gained from human body? The greatness of this body is that we invite death with a smile " (Page 256) Every sadhak has experienced that the more he progresses on spiritual path the more fearless he becomes from death. Our Scriptures and Saints have said that on God-Realization even death comes to death. So true!! Thanks, Hare Krishna Varun P. Paprunia - Dear Sadhakas, Namaste! Just as good night sleep puts a temporary end to all " my " desires, fears, attachments, pleasures and pains, all of which are parading as " me-mine during waking hours " , the so called death puts an end to them permanently. I ask myself: Can I put an end to this " me " while living daily? If I can do it, then, Death is the greatest teacher I can have! For most of us living means relating to the world while engaging in Karmas. Here Gita's message is relevant in doing karmas without the false sense of " me-doer " . Thus real death is death of " me " , a false sense of separate existence based on my ignorance, and the only source of my suffering. Fortunately we can die while living only. So living is dying and dying is living. Every night one can die by examining hurts, selfish desires, fears, etc., obtained during the day and dying to them, making psyche like a clean slate for next day's freash start. Another point: in the death body disintegrates back into Universal Elements from which it was integrated at birth- space, air, fire, water, earth. Body is universal in nature, not personal, as it cannot survive in isolation. Mind is subset of human conditioning based on time and place of one's upbringing, on the substratum of Atman-Consciousness which is the only reality of " me " ! To me, thus inherited mind is same as one's karmas, impressions ridden Atman (sanskaras), due to identification with body-mind, which merges back upon death and is recycled back to new body. If one dispells the ignorance of believing to be an individual, by realizing the truth that one is only put together by such an Intelligent Universal Being(GOD-Brahman) for Divine play only and is not one's reality, one is free in this life! Nothing dies in all our dying! Thus one is Immortal Conscious Being, inspite of having physical body! One is never was/is/will be limited by birth-death of a body! This is what I learn from the so called Death! Namaskaras! .............Pratap Bhatt ------------------------------- Hari Om Then, infinite things spring up all round , such as the apprehension of space and time , the sky, things full of characteristic properties and actions and objects having stability till the end of the world. At the end of death , quite at once, one perceives the body in youth and also , space , time , activity , objects, the mind, the intellect, the senses and the like. When the flow of bio-energy in the channels of bio-energy is adverse or deprived and the creature indeed reaches the improper state of the vital airs or energy , then, his consciousness becomes, as it were, extinguished. Merely on account of the complete obstruction to the flow of bio- energy , when activity is extinguished , the body is declared as dead. Then, that person is named inert or senseless. When the man is dead , the vital airs are united with the atmospheric airs. All the directions are just filled with winds accompanied by vital airs pregnant with throbbing minds or thoughts. Within the atomospheric air, the vital airs of the dead exist. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ------------------------- Jai Hanuman Very good Jee. What a beautiful subject is this - Death ! " Tata " forever to this ever changing world and finding solace in the affectionate and loving eveready arms of Daddy, the Great. Dhaniram Bhaiyya ! Leave Dhan and become of Ram ! Jee Jee Shashikala ------------------------ Hari Om When the channels of bio energy receive the nourishment with their contractions and expansions on account of disease, then, the breathing abandons its own natural state in the body. When the airs or breaths that have gone in do not go out and vice versa on account of improper state of the channels of bio energy ( nadi-s) , then, due to the absence of movement of senses, there can be only memory and not sensory knowledge. When the air does not enter at all or go out, on account of agitation in the channels of bio energy in the body, then, he is declared as dead. When that body has become a corpse and the life force has gone to the state of external wind , the consciousness which is liberated from desires/mental impressions dwells in the own natural /obvious/sahaj state of one's true self. The name of that minute or subtle entity possessed of desires is declared as JEEVA. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ------------------------------ Dasara Navaratri Subhakankshalu " Art of Dieing " I started journey to reach my destination - took auto, then a bus ,next a train, then an aeroplane, and again a train, an auto and reached 'Destination'. All this journey is to reach my destination. The art of living is a comfort journey to reach final destination - a comfortable death, which blesses one without a need for another journey. It is said that the highest goal of human life to be blessed with Kaivalyam or Moksham or Mukti or Liberation . " What is the most wonderful thing on earth? " asked Yaksha to Yudhisthira. 'Aharnahanibhutani gachhantiha Yamalayam Seshahasthavaramichhanti kimaascharyamatahparam' " Everyday there go into the abode of Yama countless creatures. However, the living believe themselves to be immortal. Is it not the strangest thing on earth? " replied Dharmaraju. People don't want to die. All the rakshasaas like Ravanasura, Mahishaasura, Mushikaasura, Madhukaitabha, Bhasmaasura asked for boons of no death. Adi Sankaracharya, in Prasnottararatnamaalika 'Kim maranam - What is death? " Moorghatvam " " Ignoraance and foolishness " answered. " Kim Jeevitham - What is living ? " Anavadyam " " Living a faultless life " answered. " What is ignorance? " asked Yaksha and Yudhishthira replied " Not taking cognisance of one's duties is ignorance " Lord Krishna clarified us on death. ' Dehinosminyadhaadehe' just as boyhood, youth and old age are attributed to the soul through this body even so the death. 'Jaatasyahidhruvo mrutyuhu' for in that case death is certain for the born. The art of living is prescribed for learning the art of dieing. Then how to live artistically?. 'Yasmaannodvijateloko' , he who is not a source of annoyance to his fellow creatures, and who in his turn does not feel vexed with his fellow creatures and who is free from delight and envy, perturbation and fear. There is one thing worse than death to an individual. 'Akeertichapibhutani' infamy or ill will brought on a man enjoying popular esteem is worse than death. While living righteously and doing one's prescribed duties is desirable. 'Hatovaapraapsyasesvargam' , die and you will win heaven, asserted Bhagavad Gita. C.P.Gilman summarised philosophy of death. " Death? Why this fuss about death. Use your imagination,try to visualise a world without death - Death is an essential condition of life,not an evil " . All should learn art of living to die artistically with no another birth so that one need not worry about death again. Dr.Goli ------------------------- Namaskar. Jai Shri Ram. Regarding Death, Bhagavad Gita Ch 2 shlokaas 22 & 27 lay down crisply and precisely what we should know about and accept with grace! Our scriptures clearly state that Death is but a comma, a passing shower in the journey of life. As we do so we get the result and to enjoy or suffer that karma-phala, we take birth. Once a quota of Karma-phala is undergone in a life, that chapter closes and a new chapter opens as a new life, with the change-over being marked by what we call as Death. There is really nothing to be scared of Death; rather there is no meaning in getting scared, for Death is inevitable, just as Birth is. Our efforts should be to be good, do good, say good and see good, so that a new good life dawns! Major Ramanujam. -------------------------- Respected Sadhakas. Pranam Gita has said so much about death of a body. Refer (2/11-30) And said the truth and 100% truth. When a child is born, you do not know where it will live; what it will study, what profession it will follow. But it is known that one day it will die. Birth & death is a cycle of nature. The body cannot be alive for ever. Imagine a deathless world; wherein all generations of humans, plants, birds & all other species are alive. Some of them may be as old as you can imagine. What will be the condition on the earth ? Shall we have enough food for all? Shall we have enough space for all? Will the oxygen & ozone cover be adequate? The list can go on. Today we find people complaining of ill health from the age of 35 or so. The eyes need spectacles at 30 yrs; knees start rattling at 50 yrs. One can not see at 60 due to cataract; hearing loss starts at 60 yrs. So if there is deathless society, what will be our condition of those at an age of 200 or 300 or above ? But mother nature has made things easy. Do not be afraid of death. It is only a change of dress. People sing " Tum jio hajaron saal ... " at birthdays. Please remember it is a curse to wish so & not a blessing if it comes true. THESE ARE MY PERSONAL VIEWS. BUT PLEASE THINK ABOUT THEM With best wishes and pranam to all. Suhas Govind Gogate ---------------------------- -Shree Hari- I have pasted in some sound points from the Gitaji dealing with death rebirth and so on. B.G:- Just as a person puts on new garments after discarding the old ones, similarly, the living entity or the individual soul acquires new bodies after casting away the old bodies. (2.22) All beings are unmanifest, or invisible to our physical eyes, before birth and after death. They manifest between the birth and the death only. What is there to grieve about? (2.28) (B.G. 25-30 is worth reading in giving a rounded view.) After many births, the enlightened one resorts to Me by realizing that everything is, indeed, My manifestation. Such a great soul is very rare. (7.19) I like to take these thoughts a step further. I read an account that happened in India ,(many sadhaks could give name and place to this event better than myself, for sure). There was a holy man living near a town/village, his custom was to come down from his abode daily, to perform his sacred duties, in return the people of the town would offer sustenance to this man . One day the people of the town were surprised by this holy ones, appearance he was surrounded by a brilliant aura that all could see; that was his last day in body. A similar thing happened in the USA when a visiting swami, appeared in similar manner before a large audience of devotees. Again he passed from this physical world. Now I will now come to Qi or better known to most sadhaks as Prana. This is one time I will speak with true knowledge. In the arena as it were of the Martial Arts and Quigong, energy can be experienced, moving through the body, radiating from it and so on. It seems to be associated with those who are spiritual, it is coaxed not driven. (I will leave as thus). So the point I am making is, that which we may consider as the gross body, is far more than just that, and remember energy is indestructible, it can only change. After all, all is from the source Paramatman. With Respect and Divine Love, Mike Keenor -------------------------- PRIOR POSTING Shree Hari Ram Ram IN ENGLISH Death is of the body, not of the Self. When we do not ever die, then what to speak and what to listen? Thank you very much, Ram Ram, Sarvottam IN HINDI Mrutyu sharir ki hoti hai, swayam ki nahin. Jab apni mrutyu hoti hi nahin, toh kyaa kahe, kyaa sune ? Sahadhanyavaad, Ram Ram Sarvottam ------------------------------ Hari Om Death is indeed the disappearance of body and that death is the greatest joy. Death is not at any time , of the nature of complete destruction. The dead one is spoken of as lost. I consider that as untrue and improper. So does Gita and Sanatan Dharma in unison. Being born repeatedly , he is perceived , separated by space and time. Continuance in different wishes or imaginations of oneself is called death. The individual soul, remaining with its desires, departs leaving the body and dwells in a different body, as a monkey leaving a forest tree betakes itself to another tree. The individual souls are led here and there by their own individual desire or mental impressions in a different extended place and a different point of time. As the seer of a dream , who met death in his dream world, is again born to see a different dream consisting of waking state, so, that seer of the waking state , who met with death in the world of the waking state, is again born to see a different dream consisting of waking state ! The man who is dead in this world is declared as awakened elsewhere . After the loss of consciousness in death, all the worlds quickly become manifest completely to an individual soul, as visible objects appear by the opening of eyes. After death, the wealth of creation consisting of the visible objects of three worlds , arrives at perception just in a moment. Death does not lead to fear or danger. If death is complete annihilation, then there is the destruction of the disease of worldly existence. Being dead , if he is not born again , in this respect also, there is great prosperity and elevation ! Hence death always is a pleasant thing. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B --------------------------- Dear Sadaks, It is not Khatha as Dhaniram says. The forum is giving facts. The death is predecided based on ones previous birth Karmas. The fact of birth is because one has Karmas to his account. Karmas are destined to undergo. The period to undergo such Karmas, the place of birth, environment, parents, education, type of job, wife, brothers and sisterts, friends, etc are predecided by 27 stars which is computerised by virusless system. Once Karma effect of previous birth completes even if one is 16 years or 70 years old death takes place. Since it is destined if one lives as he likes, he is adding Karmas to his account of this birth to be passed over to next birth. Mr. Birla died in plane crash just before minutes of landing. Many are very well just before few hours of death. Death and birth are same side of one coin. The 6 children of Sri Devaki (mother of krishna) were destined to be killed by Kans. Ravana was destined to be killed by Sri Rama as such Sri Rama who had vknowledge of past, present and future crowned Vibushan as King of Sri Lanka much before war started. Death is certain but time is uncertain. But there are saints like Poodhanam, Tukaram went to heaven with body defiying death. Hanuman, Vibushan and few other were blessed as " Sriranjeevi " (alway living). B.Sathyanarayan ---------------------------- GUIDELINES FOR POSTING A RESPONSE: 1. The group is focused on the Holy Gitaji, therefore, only responses which further clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will be posted. 2. Making reference of Gitaji shloka is highly encouraged - at least once in the response. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to substantiate your response. 3. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting sadhaka's time. Under no circustance the answer should be limited to half a book page, at the most 3-4 paragraphs. 4. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only. 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other organizations (we do not have the bandwidth to review links to determine if content is appropriate for distribution). 7. Complete reproduction of texts from any book is strongly discouraged, however partial cut - paste is acceptable and references may be made of the book or author(but not links to other sites). 8. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone number, address etc. 9. Please use appropriate judgement and only address the response to a particular individual, where it makes sense to do so. 10. Due to the large readership, only those responses will be posted which are in line with the general philosophy of taking Shrimad Bhagavad Gita as the reference. 11. Moderator will reject any content that does not meet guidelines. However, for expediency, moderator at his discretion, may modify / delete portions of the posting for mispelling, wordiness that is irrelevant to the overall core discussion, personal information, opinions / feelings etc. that do not align with guidelines. 12. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use of only Sanskrit words, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit bracketed wherever possible. 13. Any personal remarks over the knowledge of any sadhak or about the stage at which any sadhak is standing in his quest / sadhna / spiritual journey - must not be included in your posting. Also, there should not be any sarcasm towards fellow sadhaks in this spiritual learning and sharing. MODERATOR Ram Ram Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 18, 2008 Report Share Posted October 18, 2008 QUESTION: Can I ask if you can share your views on 'death' and if you could elaborate in details? with specific emphasis on Bhagavad Gita's views? Dhaniram ----------------------------- NEW POSTING Shree Hari Ram Ram Here are some verses in the Gita that talk about death related matters. The focus of Shri Krishna is more on attaining Him (Realization), than death itself. This write-up is from Swamiji's - Gita Madhurya Attainment of the God at time of Death Question: How are you to be attained at the time of death by those who have controlled their mind? Bhagwaan: He who departs from the body, thinking of Me alone at the time of death, attains My being, there is no doubt about it - this is my ordinance. (Gita 8:1-5) Question: What becomes of those who don't think of You? Bhagwaan: Oh Arjuna, thinking of whatever being one leaves this body at the time of death, that alone he attains, being absorbed in the thought thereof. (Gita 8:6) Question: What is it that I should do at the time of death to think of You? Bhagwaan: You should think of Me at all times and perfrom your duty, with mind and reason surrendered to Me. (Gita 8:7) Question: What will be the result of doing that? Bhagwaan: You will surely attain Me. (Gita 8:7) Question: What is Your Form by thinking which a self-controlled man attains You? Bhagwaan: There are three forms - one with attributes and formless, second attributeless and formless and third endowed with attributes and form. Now I tell you the first form by meditating on which a man attains Me. (Gita 8:7) Oh Arjuna, he who with his mind established in Yoga in the form of practice of meditation, thinking of nothing else, is constantly engaged in contemplation of the Supreme Divine Purusa (God) attains Him. (Gita 8:7) Question: What is the form of the Supreme Divine One? Bhagwaan: He is Omniscient, Ancient One, Ruler of All, Subtler than the Subtle, the Sustainer of all, possessing a form beyond comprehension, shining like the Sun and beyond the darkness of ignorance. He who meditates on this Supreme One at the time of death, by Yogic power firmly holding the life breath in the space between the eyebrows with a steady mind, full of devotion, reaches verily that Supreme Divine One. (Gita 8:9-10). From " Gita Madhurya " In Hindi - page 78 by Swami Ramsukhdasji Meera Das Ram Ram ----------------- Jai Hanuman O Brother Mike! Indeed I value your sentiments ! Did not I draw you out of your shell ? Right you are ! Dear Brother!! Right you are !! Did not I precisely know that where that serpent itself will become an ornament ? That serpent indeed becomes an ornament in the neck of Lord Shiva ! Glorious! Beautiful !! No where brother is Death ! only Love !! How can it wish to kill you ? No way ! You are already gold , Dear Brother. I am your proud Jee Jee !! Proud of you ! Namaste Jee Jee Jee Shashikala ------------------------- -Shree Hari- Dear Moderator, I believe that someone queried about suicide. Can't locate it, is it current ? A curse of the modern age, especially among the young. With Respects and Divine Love, Mike Keenor ------------------------ Shree Hari Ram Ram The topic of Suicide was discussed - see link: /message/1371 from May 31 - June 20, 2008. Hope this helps. From Gita Talk Moderator Ram Ram ------------------------- Shree Hari Ram Ram Please see additional Q & A with Swamiji related to Death that were posted in Sadhak group - Question: Just like one's time of death is inevitable, similarly the pain that one experiences at time of death is that also inevitable ? Answer: No! each one is experiencing the fruits of their good and evil actions. If someone has to undergo the consequences of past actions, then they will experience more difficulty at time of death. But sorrow only comes to he who within has desire for any particular thing. Question: Those who are holy and doing good only, they are deeply engaged in spiritual practices and worship of God, if they undergo suffering at time of death, then what is the reason ? Answer: God desires to wipe out the sins of all their past birth's and make them entirely pure, so that they are benefited and attain salvation. Questions: It has been said that at time of death the pain and difficulties experienced are as intense, almost as if thousands of scorpions are biting, but saints have spoken that death is not what is painful, it is the desire to live that results in the pain. In reality, what is correct ? Answer: Just like from child to youth and from youth to old age, one experiences no difficulty, similarly at time of death in reality there is no difficulty. The difficulties are only experienced by he who within desires to continue to live. The point is that he who is attached to the body, only he has the sensation and difficulty like that of thousands of scorpions biting. The greater the attachment, proprietary feeling (mine-ness), desire, liking that one has for the body, that much more pain and difficulty one will experience at time of death. From " Prashnouttermanimaala " in in Hindi page 92 by Swami Ramsukhdasji Question: At the last moment of one's life, if there is no remembrance of God nor of the world, what will be the outcome ? Answer: This is not possible. Something or the other will definitely be remembered - " na hi kaschitkshanamapi jaatu tishthatyakarmakrt " (Gita 3:5) Questions: For there to be remembrance of God at the final moment, for such a thing to happen, what must one do ? Answer: Remember God at all times, because each moment it self is the final moment. One does not know when death will arrive, ! Therefore God has said in the Gita - " tastmaatsarveshu kaaaleshu maamnusmar " (Gita 8:7). " Therefore at all times, you be in rememberance of Me and also engage in war " Question: Whatever the man remembers at the time of death (at time of leaving his body), that he will attain, does this ruling apply to even those that commit suicide ? Answer: Yes! it applies to those who are commiting suicide as well. But for those individuals it is very difficult for them to be in rememberance of God (auspiciousness). This is because they are committing suicide out of deep pain and sorrow, but their desire remains to be happy. Secondly, when the life force is leaving them, they are repenting of their act, but they are unable to do anything about it. Thirdly, while life force is leaving them, they experience terrible and immense difficulties. If their inner feelings are pure, if they have faith in God, if they desire to remember God, then they will not do this terrible crime of committing suicide. Lastly, it is because the inner intellect is impure, that one thinks of committing suicide. Therefore those that commit suicide have a major downfall. Skanda Purana says that such persons do not attain salvation for several lives to come. Therefore intelligent persons, must never ever think of suicide even out of forgetfulness or mistake. From " Prashnouttermanimaala " in in Hindi page 94-95 by Swami Ramsukhdasji Meera Das Ram Ram ------------------------- PRIOR POSTING -Shree Hari- Jeje Shashikalaji, You are inviting me out of my comfort zone, and since this form of verse is out of my common reference, I will let the feel of it guide my response. For no other reason, but to be of service to our brethren.(If possible). I will first talk of death, Shashikalaji. I am sure you know that a person can die and can suffer a painful death, and yet remain in body, to be re-born from the spiritual womb as it were. Thus at the death of the body, in such grace, what is there to die? The terrible imagery of the serpent, that portrays the dark forces of humanity, can be transmuted by the Divine Grace within, such a primordial symbol, (the serpent), can thus become a thing of great beauty, translucent, radiating a brilliant light, pulsating colors not of this world, you understand. Ah the fire that burns so deep can refine the soul and burn away the dross, all impurities and blemishes, leaving the Self standing like the purist spiritual gold bathed naked before the rising sun. Where then is death? With Respect and Divine ove, Mike Keenor ---------------------- The soul is immortal. So we should avoid the endless cycle of birth and death through meditation and good karmas in this birth. Hari Shanker Deo ----------------------- Hari Hari Dear bhagavatas, Could you please enlighten me of the following question? I want to know what is the end (gati) met by a good person who commits suicide per our shasthra (scriptures)? Also is there any parisharams (pains) associated? What are Gita's Views on this? Please provide Shloka (Verse) in Gita. Adien Sridharan Kadambi -------------- FROM GITA TALK MODERATOR Responses to above question will be a new TOPIC. Kindly substantiate with associated verses in Scriptures and not just opinions / beliefs. Ram Ram --------------- Jai Hanuman Very Good Varun Bhaiyya! Death of the death. Wow ! Yes ! Dr Goli- here is how what you wished in last para of your very good message can be achieved ! Vyasji Maharaj - Tu daal daal to main paat paat !! Death does not wish to kill that person on whose bosom the series of strings of desires passed through pearls that are sins or defects, is not fastened ! Mike Bhaiyya ! Any views on the below? Death does not wish to kill him whom mental agonies, which are insects for the creeper constituting the entire body and saws for the body tree in the form of sighs, do not cut. Death does not wish to kill him whom hopes or desires , which are multitudes of snakes on the body tree, with anxieties set as expanded hoods on the head, do not burn within. And to whom the serpent of avarice, filled with the poison of attachment and aversion and having its habitation in the cavity of one's own mind, does not eat. And to whom anger, which is the sub marine fire in the body-ocean , that has drunk the entire waters of DISCRIMINATION (viveka) , does not burn. And to whom Cupid does not torment intensely like a hard grinding machine which is filled, squeezing the mass of sesamum-seeds within. Death does not wish to kill him, by whom the repose of the mind is resorted to in the in the Supreme Self. Death does not wish to kill him whose mind, risen like a monkey which has fallen upon the chasm that is the body, is not trembling. Namaste Jee Jee Jee Shashikala -- What is Death? Death in itself is beyond one's cognition for the very reason that tha cognitive mechanism is completely broken at its very onset! Obviously, there are two apparently opposed views on it: Death is a myth and the death is the ultimate reality. Bhagavadgita and other scriptures provide the repurcussions of both views rather than generating any new view as such. Na praanena naapaanena martyo jeevati kashchana | Itarena tu jeevanti yasminnetou upaashritou || One does not live because of breathing or any other activity such as heart beats etc. They are just symptoms of life. The life is based in SOMETHING ELSE on which all such life-supporting activities depend upon. Once THAT is apperciated, the death is a myth. Manasevaidamaaptavyam neha naanaasti kinchana | Mrityossa mrityum gacchati ya iha naaneva pashyati || One can attain THAT UNISON through one's mind alone which otherwise keeps distracting itself and all its fellow elements to the variety in this world as per its perception. One who insists on variety is bound to chase the (notion of) birth being chased by the (notion of) death perpetually because the very basis of sustenance of any variance is the perpetual procession of birth-death cycles. Sasyamiva pachyate martyah sasyamivaajaayate punah | One whose mind insists the life to be bound by the space and time in terms of matter and energy has no choice but to follow the recycling of the same in terms of one's birth(s) and death(s). On the other hand, one whose mind has appreciated THAT SOMETHING ELSE which is the basis for all the life-supporting activities within which everything is established will remain intact as they are forever can utter, Na mrityurna shankaa na me jaatibhedah | Pitaa naiva me naiva maataa na janma || There is no birth to experience the death and hence all other relations including all doubts and beliefs such as the fatherhood and motherhood whither away in such case. Death is a myth churned out in one's cognition that is bound by time and space. One who respects such notion or understanding has no choice but to chase its opposite called birth being chased by the self-generated fear of the same. Jaatasya hi dhruvam mrithyuh dhruvam janma mritasya cha | Tasmaadaparihaaryerthe na tvam shochitumarhasi || One who believes that one has " gained " life through birth is bound to be afraid of " loosing " the same through death. One who doubts that one may loose one's life is helpless but to crave for a renewal of life through another birth. If the perceptions of birth and death are to be construed upon as true, one cannot help but to go through such cycles as such … in that case, what is the point in worrying about it?! There is no point in generating a new worry that we could not resolve it … because, (1) it cannot be resolved as such; (2) there is no need to establish the resolution as we can be happy without such resolution as such; and (3) even if we could get a resolution, what is the guarantee that we will be happy when we are not ready to be happy?! Whether death is certain or not, we can never know for sure. But, the fear of death is very certain in our cognition. Our scriptures always focus on what is certain in our cogniotion and prove beyond doubt that there is no reason to be afraid of death whether the death is a myth or not in one's appreciation. That is the view I greatly value in our scriptures. Respects. Naga Narayana. -- Hari Om Within the atmospheric air, the vital airs of dead exist. In the interior of the vital airs, the mind exists. Know the world as existing within the mind like oil in the sesamum seed. Then - after death- that individual is described by the word " preta " by those with established custom. Consciuosness , associated with mental impressions , exists like wind and fragrance carried by it. When the individual soul dwells in a different vision having abandoned this visible world, then he is of various forms or deeds as in a dream or as in a fancy , suited to such experiences. In that very place WHERE ONE DIES , one would become possessed of memory or understanding within, as in his earlier incarnation. Then only, at the end of insensibility of death, he perceives another body. Whosoever and as many individual souls or creatures as are dead, deprived of liberation , exist there in space, so many are those worlds or worldly illusions , severally and seemingly imperishable. NEXT : Experiences at the time of death ! Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ------------------------- PRIOR POSTING Jai Hanuman Who dies Jee! Who takes birth ! The self neither dies nor is born anywhere. It only perceives this mistakenly like the confusion arising in a dream. The soul is mere consciousness. When and where possibly does it perish? In the case of its being distinct from consciousness , say, what else can a man be? Say, who has seen consciousness dead till this day- whose, which and how? Hundreds of thousands of bodies die. Consciousness is remaining imperishable. The names of life and death were invented only for that diversity of mere desires which the individual soul may experience in itself, Jee. Namaste Jee Jee Jee Shashikala --------------------------- Hare Krishna " Sab Jag Darte Maran Se Mere Maran Anand Kab Mariye Kab Bhetiye Pooran Parmanand " " The whole world is afraid of death, but my joy lies in death When shall I die and attain that Supreme Bliss " In his discourses, when speaking on topic 'Afraid of death' Swamiji would ask sadhaks to contemplate on whether they are prepared for the inevitable death. He would say - " If death comes today then are you ready to face it? If you are afraid of it then this means you have not completed your work. You might remember that in school days when teacher throws questions on a topic and if you have not studied it then you would try to hide yourself from the eyes of teacher. But if you have completed your homework then you would confidently raise the hand. Similarly if you are fearing death then it means you have not completed your work. The most important work of this human body is God-Realization. Just think over your life. The path which you have taken will that make you intrepid to death? If not then what are you planning to do in this human life.... " He would often say the above doha of Saint Kabir. From the book 'Ek Mahatma Ka Prasad' published by Gitapress,Gorakhpur " Sadhak's present spiritual practice can make his future a success. If one is steadfast in his spiritual practice then he won't have to fear death. Infact he will pleasantly wait for it. He is not afraid of death because he has completed the work of this human body. Then what would be the cause of worry? But one who is not utilizing his present and has left everything on future, one who is not prepared for his departure then he will have to fear death. On arrival of death he is dreaded and guilty. But at that moment he is unable to do anyting. A man's biggest helplessness and weakness is that whatever he knows he is not able to do that. " (Page 254 - 255) " A man is born crying and if he dies crying then what has he attained? What have you gained from human body? The greatness of this body is that we invite death with a smile " (Page 256) Every sadhak has experienced that the more he progresses on spiritual path the more fearless he becomes from death. Our Scriptures and Saints have said that on God-Realization even death comes to death. So true!! Thanks, Hare Krishna Varun P. Paprunia - Dear Sadhakas, Namaste! Just as good night sleep puts a temporary end to all " my " desires, fears, attachments, pleasures and pains, all of which are parading as " me-mine during waking hours " , the so called death puts an end to them permanently. I ask myself: Can I put an end to this " me " while living daily? If I can do it, then, Death is the greatest teacher I can have! For most of us living means relating to the world while engaging in Karmas. Here Gita's message is relevant in doing karmas without the false sense of " me-doer " . Thus real death is death of " me " , a false sense of separate existence based on my ignorance, and the only source of my suffering. Fortunately we can die while living only. So living is dying and dying is living. Every night one can die by examining hurts, selfish desires, fears, etc., obtained during the day and dying to them, making psyche like a clean slate for next day's freash start. Another point: in the death body disintegrates back into Universal Elements from which it was integrated at birth- space, air, fire, water, earth. Body is universal in nature, not personal, as it cannot survive in isolation. Mind is subset of human conditioning based on time and place of one's upbringing, on the substratum of Atman-Consciousness which is the only reality of " me " ! To me, thus inherited mind is same as one's karmas, impressions ridden Atman (sanskaras), due to identification with body-mind, which merges back upon death and is recycled back to new body. If one dispells the ignorance of believing to be an individual, by realizing the truth that one is only put together by such an Intelligent Universal Being(GOD-Brahman) for Divine play only and is not one's reality, one is free in this life! Nothing dies in all our dying! Thus one is Immortal Conscious Being, inspite of having physical body! One is never was/is/will be limited by birth-death of a body! This is what I learn from the so called Death! Namaskaras! .............Pratap Bhatt ------------------------------- Hari Om Then, infinite things spring up all round , such as the apprehension of space and time , the sky, things full of characteristic properties and actions and objects having stability till the end of the world. At the end of death , quite at once, one perceives the body in youth and also , space , time , activity , objects, the mind, the intellect, the senses and the like. When the flow of bio-energy in the channels of bio-energy is adverse or deprived and the creature indeed reaches the improper state of the vital airs or energy , then, his consciousness becomes, as it were, extinguished. Merely on account of the complete obstruction to the flow of bio- energy , when activity is extinguished , the body is declared as dead. Then, that person is named inert or senseless. When the man is dead , the vital airs are united with the atmospheric airs. All the directions are just filled with winds accompanied by vital airs pregnant with throbbing minds or thoughts. Within the atomospheric air, the vital airs of the dead exist. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ------------------------- Jai Hanuman Very good Jee. What a beautiful subject is this - Death ! " Tata " forever to this ever changing world and finding solace in the affectionate and loving eveready arms of Daddy, the Great. Dhaniram Bhaiyya ! Leave Dhan and become of Ram ! Jee Jee Shashikala ------------------------ Hari Om When the channels of bio energy receive the nourishment with their contractions and expansions on account of disease, then, the breathing abandons its own natural state in the body. When the airs or breaths that have gone in do not go out and vice versa on account of improper state of the channels of bio energy ( nadi-s) , then, due to the absence of movement of senses, there can be only memory and not sensory knowledge. When the air does not enter at all or go out, on account of agitation in the channels of bio energy in the body, then, he is declared as dead. When that body has become a corpse and the life force has gone to the state of external wind , the consciousness which is liberated from desires/mental impressions dwells in the own natural /obvious/sahaj state of one's true self. The name of that minute or subtle entity possessed of desires is declared as JEEVA. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ------------------------------ Dasara Navaratri Subhakankshalu " Art of Dieing " I started journey to reach my destination - took auto, then a bus ,next a train, then an aeroplane, and again a train, an auto and reached 'Destination'. All this journey is to reach my destination. The art of living is a comfort journey to reach final destination - a comfortable death, which blesses one without a need for another journey. It is said that the highest goal of human life to be blessed with Kaivalyam or Moksham or Mukti or Liberation . " What is the most wonderful thing on earth? " asked Yaksha to Yudhisthira. 'Aharnahanibhutani gachhantiha Yamalayam Seshahasthavaramichhanti kimaascharyamatahparam' " Everyday there go into the abode of Yama countless creatures. However, the living believe themselves to be immortal. Is it not the strangest thing on earth? " replied Dharmaraju. People don't want to die. All the rakshasaas like Ravanasura, Mahishaasura, Mushikaasura, Madhukaitabha, Bhasmaasura asked for boons of no death. Adi Sankaracharya, in Prasnottararatnamaalika 'Kim maranam - What is death? " Moorghatvam " " Ignoraance and foolishness " answered. " Kim Jeevitham - What is living ? " Anavadyam " " Living a faultless life " answered. " What is ignorance? " asked Yaksha and Yudhishthira replied " Not taking cognisance of one's duties is ignorance " Lord Krishna clarified us on death. ' Dehinosminyadhaadehe' just as boyhood, youth and old age are attributed to the soul through this body even so the death. 'Jaatasyahidhruvo mrutyuhu' for in that case death is certain for the born. The art of living is prescribed for learning the art of dieing. Then how to live artistically?. 'Yasmaannodvijateloko' , he who is not a source of annoyance to his fellow creatures, and who in his turn does not feel vexed with his fellow creatures and who is free from delight and envy, perturbation and fear. There is one thing worse than death to an individual. 'Akeertichapibhutani' infamy or ill will brought on a man enjoying popular esteem is worse than death. While living righteously and doing one's prescribed duties is desirable. 'Hatovaapraapsyasesvargam' , die and you will win heaven, asserted Bhagavad Gita. C.P.Gilman summarised philosophy of death. " Death? Why this fuss about death. Use your imagination,try to visualise a world without death - Death is an essential condition of life,not an evil " . All should learn art of living to die artistically with no another birth so that one need not worry about death again. Dr.Goli ------------------------- Namaskar. Jai Shri Ram. Regarding Death, Bhagavad Gita Ch 2 shlokaas 22 & 27 lay down crisply and precisely what we should know about and accept with grace! Our scriptures clearly state that Death is but a comma, a passing shower in the journey of life. As we do so we get the result and to enjoy or suffer that karma-phala, we take birth. Once a quota of Karma-phala is undergone in a life, that chapter closes and a new chapter opens as a new life, with the change-over being marked by what we call as Death. There is really nothing to be scared of Death; rather there is no meaning in getting scared, for Death is inevitable, just as Birth is. Our efforts should be to be good, do good, say good and see good, so that a new good life dawns! Major Ramanujam. -------------------------- Respected Sadhakas. Pranam Gita has said so much about death of a body. Refer (2/11-30) And said the truth and 100% truth. When a child is born, you do not know where it will live; what it will study, what profession it will follow. But it is known that one day it will die. Birth & death is a cycle of nature. The body cannot be alive for ever. Imagine a deathless world; wherein all generations of humans, plants, birds & all other species are alive. Some of them may be as old as you can imagine. What will be the condition on the earth ? Shall we have enough food for all? Shall we have enough space for all? Will the oxygen & ozone cover be adequate? The list can go on. Today we find people complaining of ill health from the age of 35 or so. The eyes need spectacles at 30 yrs; knees start rattling at 50 yrs. One can not see at 60 due to cataract; hearing loss starts at 60 yrs. So if there is deathless society, what will be our condition of those at an age of 200 or 300 or above ? But mother nature has made things easy. Do not be afraid of death. It is only a change of dress. People sing " Tum jio hajaron saal ... " at birthdays. Please remember it is a curse to wish so & not a blessing if it comes true. THESE ARE MY PERSONAL VIEWS. BUT PLEASE THINK ABOUT THEM With best wishes and pranam to all. Suhas Govind Gogate ---------------------------- -Shree Hari- I have pasted in some sound points from the Gitaji dealing with death rebirth and so on. B.G:- Just as a person puts on new garments after discarding the old ones, similarly, the living entity or the individual soul acquires new bodies after casting away the old bodies. (2.22) All beings are unmanifest, or invisible to our physical eyes, before birth and after death. They manifest between the birth and the death only. What is there to grieve about? (2.28) (B.G. 25-30 is worth reading in giving a rounded view.) After many births, the enlightened one resorts to Me by realizing that everything is, indeed, My manifestation. Such a great soul is very rare. (7.19) I like to take these thoughts a step further. I read an account that happened in India ,(many sadhaks could give name and place to this event better than myself, for sure). There was a holy man living near a town/village, his custom was to come down from his abode daily, to perform his sacred duties, in return the people of the town would offer sustenance to this man . One day the people of the town were surprised by this holy ones, appearance he was surrounded by a brilliant aura that all could see; that was his last day in body. A similar thing happened in the USA when a visiting swami, appeared in similar manner before a large audience of devotees. Again he passed from this physical world. Now I will now come to Qi or better known to most sadhaks as Prana. This is one time I will speak with true knowledge. In the arena as it were of the Martial Arts and Quigong, energy can be experienced, moving through the body, radiating from it and so on. It seems to be associated with those who are spiritual, it is coaxed not driven. (I will leave as thus). So the point I am making is, that which we may consider as the gross body, is far more than just that, and remember energy is indestructible, it can only change. After all, all is from the source Paramatman. With Respect and Divine Love, Mike Keenor -------------------------- PRIOR POSTING Shree Hari Ram Ram IN ENGLISH Death is of the body, not of the Self. When we do not ever die, then what to speak and what to listen? Thank you very much, Ram Ram, Sarvottam IN HINDI Mrutyu sharir ki hoti hai, swayam ki nahin. Jab apni mrutyu hoti hi nahin, toh kyaa kahe, kyaa sune ? Sahadhanyavaad, Ram Ram Sarvottam ------------------------------ Hari Om Death is indeed the disappearance of body and that death is the greatest joy. Death is not at any time , of the nature of complete destruction. The dead one is spoken of as lost. I consider that as untrue and improper. So does Gita and Sanatan Dharma in unison. Being born repeatedly , he is perceived , separated by space and time. Continuance in different wishes or imaginations of oneself is called death. The individual soul, remaining with its desires, departs leaving the body and dwells in a different body, as a monkey leaving a forest tree betakes itself to another tree. The individual souls are led here and there by their own individual desire or mental impressions in a different extended place and a different point of time. As the seer of a dream , who met death in his dream world, is again born to see a different dream consisting of waking state, so, that seer of the waking state , who met with death in the world of the waking state, is again born to see a different dream consisting of waking state ! The man who is dead in this world is declared as awakened elsewhere . After the loss of consciousness in death, all the worlds quickly become manifest completely to an individual soul, as visible objects appear by the opening of eyes. After death, the wealth of creation consisting of the visible objects of three worlds , arrives at perception just in a moment. Death does not lead to fear or danger. If death is complete annihilation, then there is the destruction of the disease of worldly existence. Being dead , if he is not born again , in this respect also, there is great prosperity and elevation ! Hence death always is a pleasant thing. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B --------------------------- ORIGINAL QUESTION Dear Sadaks, It is not Khatha as Dhaniram says. The forum is giving facts. The death is predecided based on ones previous birth Karmas. The fact of birth is because one has Karmas to his account. Karmas are destined to undergo. The period to undergo such Karmas, the place of birth, environment, parents, education, type of job, wife, brothers and sisterts, friends, etc are predecided by 27 stars which is computerised by virusless system. Once Karma effect of previous birth completes even if one is 16 years or 70 years old death takes place. Since it is destined if one lives as he likes, he is adding Karmas to his account of this birth to be passed over to next birth. Mr. Birla died in plane crash just before minutes of landing. Many are very well just before few hours of death. Death and birth are same side of one coin. The 6 children of Sri Devaki (mother of krishna) were destined to be killed by Kans. Ravana was destined to be killed by Sri Rama as such Sri Rama who had vknowledge of past, present and future crowned Vibushan as King of Sri Lanka much before war started. Death is certain but time is uncertain. But there are saints like Poodhanam, Tukaram went to heaven with body defiying death. Hanuman, Vibushan and few other were blessed as " Sriranjeevi " (alway living). B.Sathyanarayan Namaste and Jai Seeta Ram! I have been a recipient of your in depth information for a long time and gained considerably knowledge from it topics and contents. Can I ask if you can share your views on 'death' and if you could elaborate in details? Lots of information on the living, let's hear your katha on death with specific emphasis on Bhagavad Gita's views. Thanks, Dhaniram -------------------------- ---------------------------- GUIDELINES FOR POSTING A RESPONSE: 1. The group is focused on the Holy Gitaji, therefore, only responses which further clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will be posted. 2. Making reference of Gitaji shloka is highly encouraged - at least once in the response. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to substantiate your response. 3. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting sadhaka's time. Under no circustance the answer should be limited to half a book page, at the most 3-4 paragraphs. 4. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only. 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other organizations (we do not have the bandwidth to review links to determine if content is appropriate for distribution). 7. 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Guest guest Posted October 19, 2008 Report Share Posted October 19, 2008 QUESTION: Can I ask if you can share your views on 'death' and if you could elaborate in details? with specific emphasis on Bhagavad Gita's views? Dhaniram ----------------------------- NEW POSTING -Shree Hari- Dear sadhaks, Suicide is such a terrible thing that it does need attention. I have been in situations where people were close to suicide, two told me out rite, (what a burden to have someone place their lives in ones hands as it were). The other situation was far more imminent, I will keep it brief: A colleague who was working for me, I noticed was getting more and more withdrawn. Finally he was crouched on the floor, definitely putting his life at risk. My superiors had backed off, I took on the task. He had an answer to all my logic, I was concerned for his and my own well-being. I knew that this situation was really bad. Suddenly I looked into his eyes and said " You are precious! " , and quietly said " We all are precious " . His eyes filled with tears the crisis was over. So I will repeat to all who read this, We are all precious ! So if one can save a soul from all the terrors that can await him/her as a result of suicide. Then it is a precious gift for both of you. So never, never hesitate, to help such a soul ! Divine love will guide you. That which I have written above is not about me, it's about divine love. I think these sad souls I mentioned had fallen into a trap, something to do with ego born of ignorance. Gitaji: 4: 22. Content with what comes to him without effort, free from the pairs of opposites and envy, even-minded in success and failure, Though acting, he is not bound. 4: 42. Therefore, with the sword of knowledge (of the Self) cut asunder the doubt of the self born of ignorance, residing in your heart, and take refuge in Yoga; arise, Arjuna! With Respect and Divine Love, Mike Keenor ------------------------------ Hari Om, What about those who die suddenly, like in vehicle accidents? Or even a sudden death due to massive heart failure? It is an accepted fact that only a few seconds prevail before the onset of death proper in these cases. Under these circumstances death appears as a flash and will leave little time to think of the Lord, or for that matter anything else. Of course, not everyone can utter ' Hey Ram' like Mahaatma Gandhi did when they are ill-prepared for such sudden deaths. What has the Gita got say on this? Another point of contention by some astrologers is that people who die suddenly before completing their 120 year life span are re-born to serve out their karmas. In other words are we given this fixed period in the human birth and if that be the case what will be like for those who still do not achieve God realisation? Will they be given another lease of cycle in the human race or in other creature forms? Does the Gita mention anything on this also, especially on astrology? Your valued explanations are anticipated. With warm regards, R. Mahendra Raj ------------------------------ PRIOR POSTING Shree Hari Ram Ram Here are some verses in the Gita that talk about death related matters. The focus of Shri Krishna is more on attaining Him (Realization), than death itself. This write-up is from Swamiji's - Gita Madhurya Attainment of the God at time of Death Question: How are you to be attained at the time of death by those who have controlled their mind? Bhagwaan: He who departs from the body, thinking of Me alone at the time of death, attains My being, there is no doubt about it - this is my ordinance. (Gita 8:1-5) Question: What becomes of those who don't think of You? Bhagwaan: Oh Arjuna, thinking of whatever being one leaves this body at the time of death, that alone he attains, being absorbed in the thought thereof. (Gita 8:6) Question: What is it that I should do at the time of death to think of You? Bhagwaan: You should think of Me at all times and perfrom your duty, with mind and reason surrendered to Me. (Gita 8:7) Question: What will be the result of doing that? Bhagwaan: You will surely attain Me. (Gita 8:7) Question: What is Your Form by thinking which a self-controlled man attains You? Bhagwaan: There are three forms - one with attributes and formless, second attributeless and formless and third endowed with attributes and form. Now I tell you the first form by meditating on which a man attains Me. (Gita 8:7) Oh Arjuna, he who with his mind established in Yoga in the form of practice of meditation, thinking of nothing else, is constantly engaged in contemplation of the Supreme Divine Purusa (God) attains Him. (Gita 8:7) Question: What is the form of the Supreme Divine One? Bhagwaan: He is Omniscient, Ancient One, Ruler of All, Subtler than the Subtle, the Sustainer of all, possessing a form beyond comprehension, shining like the Sun and beyond the darkness of ignorance. He who meditates on this Supreme One at the time of death, by Yogic power firmly holding the life breath in the space between the eyebrows with a steady mind, full of devotion, reaches verily that Supreme Divine One. (Gita 8:9-10). From " Gita Madhurya " In Hindi - page 78 by Swami Ramsukhdasji Meera Das Ram Ram ----------------- Jai Hanuman O Brother Mike! Indeed I value your sentiments ! Did not I draw you out of your shell ? Right you are ! Dear Brother!! Right you are !! Did not I precisely know that where that serpent itself will become an ornament ? That serpent indeed becomes an ornament in the neck of Lord Shiva ! Glorious! Beautiful !! No where brother is Death ! only Love !! How can it wish to kill you ? No way ! You are already gold , Dear Brother. I am your proud Jee Jee !! Proud of you ! Namaste Jee Jee Jee Shashikala ------------------------- -Shree Hari- Dear Moderator, I believe that someone queried about suicide. Can't locate it, is it current ? A curse of the modern age, especially among the young. With Respects and Divine Love, Mike Keenor ------------------------ Shree Hari Ram Ram The topic of Suicide was discussed - see link: /message/1371 from May 31 - June 20, 2008. Hope this helps. From Gita Talk Moderator Ram Ram ------------------------- Shree Hari Ram Ram Please see additional Q & A with Swamiji related to Death that were posted in Sadhak group - Question: Just like one's time of death is inevitable, similarly the pain that one experiences at time of death is that also inevitable ? Answer: No! each one is experiencing the fruits of their good and evil actions. If someone has to undergo the consequences of past actions, then they will experience more difficulty at time of death. But sorrow only comes to he who within has desire for any particular thing. Question: Those who are holy and doing good only, they are deeply engaged in spiritual practices and worship of God, if they undergo suffering at time of death, then what is the reason ? Answer: God desires to wipe out the sins of all their past birth's and make them entirely pure, so that they are benefited and attain salvation. Questions: It has been said that at time of death the pain and difficulties experienced are as intense, almost as if thousands of scorpions are biting, but saints have spoken that death is not what is painful, it is the desire to live that results in the pain. In reality, what is correct ? Answer: Just like from child to youth and from youth to old age, one experiences no difficulty, similarly at time of death in reality there is no difficulty. The difficulties are only experienced by he who within desires to continue to live. The point is that he who is attached to the body, only he has the sensation and difficulty like that of thousands of scorpions biting. The greater the attachment, proprietary feeling (mine-ness), desire, liking that one has for the body, that much more pain and difficulty one will experience at time of death. From " Prashnouttermanimaala " in in Hindi page 92 by Swami Ramsukhdasji Question: At the last moment of one's life, if there is no remembrance of God nor of the world, what will be the outcome ? Answer: This is not possible. Something or the other will definitely be remembered - " na hi kaschitkshanamapi jaatu tishthatyakarmakrt " (Gita 3:5) Questions: For there to be remembrance of God at the final moment, for such a thing to happen, what must one do ? Answer: Remember God at all times, because each moment it self is the final moment. One does not know when death will arrive, ! Therefore God has said in the Gita - " tastmaatsarveshu kaaaleshu maamnusmar " (Gita 8:7). " Therefore at all times, you be in rememberance of Me and also engage in war " Question: Whatever the man remembers at the time of death (at time of leaving his body), that he will attain, does this ruling apply to even those that commit suicide ? Answer: Yes! it applies to those who are commiting suicide as well. But for those individuals it is very difficult for them to be in rememberance of God (auspiciousness). This is because they are committing suicide out of deep pain and sorrow, but their desire remains to be happy. Secondly, when the life force is leaving them, they are repenting of their act, but they are unable to do anything about it. Thirdly, while life force is leaving them, they experience terrible and immense difficulties. If their inner feelings are pure, if they have faith in God, if they desire to remember God, then they will not do this terrible crime of committing suicide. Lastly, it is because the inner intellect is impure, that one thinks of committing suicide. Therefore those that commit suicide have a major downfall. Skanda Purana says that such persons do not attain salvation for several lives to come. Therefore intelligent persons, must never ever think of suicide even out of forgetfulness or mistake. From " Prashnouttermanimaala " in in Hindi page 94-95 by Swami Ramsukhdasji Meera Das Ram Ram ------------------------- PRIOR POSTING -Shree Hari- Jeje Shashikalaji, You are inviting me out of my comfort zone, and since this form of verse is out of my common reference, I will let the feel of it guide my response. For no other reason, but to be of service to our brethren.(If possible). I will first talk of death, Shashikalaji. I am sure you know that a person can die and can suffer a painful death, and yet remain in body, to be re-born from the spiritual womb as it were. Thus at the death of the body, in such grace, what is there to die? The terrible imagery of the serpent, that portrays the dark forces of humanity, can be transmuted by the Divine Grace within, such a primordial symbol, (the serpent), can thus become a thing of great beauty, translucent, radiating a brilliant light, pulsating colors not of this world, you understand. Ah the fire that burns so deep can refine the soul and burn away the dross, all impurities and blemishes, leaving the Self standing like the purist spiritual gold bathed naked before the rising sun. Where then is death? With Respect and Divine ove, Mike Keenor ---------------------- The soul is immortal. So we should avoid the endless cycle of birth and death through meditation and good karmas in this birth. Hari Shanker Deo ----------------------- Hari Hari Dear bhagavatas, Could you please enlighten me of the following question? I want to know what is the end (gati) met by a good person who commits suicide per our shasthra (scriptures)? Also is there any parisharams (pains) associated? What are Gita's Views on this? Please provide Shloka (Verse) in Gita. Adien Sridharan Kadambi -------------- FROM GITA TALK MODERATOR Responses to above question will be a new TOPIC. Kindly substantiate with associated verses in Scriptures and not just opinions / beliefs. Ram Ram --------------- Jai Hanuman Very Good Varun Bhaiyya! Death of the death. Wow ! Yes ! Dr Goli- here is how what you wished in last para of your very good message can be achieved ! Vyasji Maharaj - Tu daal daal to main paat paat !! Death does not wish to kill that person on whose bosom the series of strings of desires passed through pearls that are sins or defects, is not fastened ! Mike Bhaiyya ! Any views on the below? Death does not wish to kill him whom mental agonies, which are insects for the creeper constituting the entire body and saws for the body tree in the form of sighs, do not cut. Death does not wish to kill him whom hopes or desires , which are multitudes of snakes on the body tree, with anxieties set as expanded hoods on the head, do not burn within. And to whom the serpent of avarice, filled with the poison of attachment and aversion and having its habitation in the cavity of one's own mind, does not eat. And to whom anger, which is the sub marine fire in the body-ocean , that has drunk the entire waters of DISCRIMINATION (viveka) , does not burn. And to whom Cupid does not torment intensely like a hard grinding machine which is filled, squeezing the mass of sesamum-seeds within. Death does not wish to kill him, by whom the repose of the mind is resorted to in the in the Supreme Self. Death does not wish to kill him whose mind, risen like a monkey which has fallen upon the chasm that is the body, is not trembling. Namaste Jee Jee Jee Shashikala -- What is Death? Death in itself is beyond one's cognition for the very reason that tha cognitive mechanism is completely broken at its very onset! Obviously, there are two apparently opposed views on it: Death is a myth and the death is the ultimate reality. Bhagavadgita and other scriptures provide the repurcussions of both views rather than generating any new view as such. Na praanena naapaanena martyo jeevati kashchana | Itarena tu jeevanti yasminnetou upaashritou || One does not live because of breathing or any other activity such as heart beats etc. They are just symptoms of life. The life is based in SOMETHING ELSE on which all such life-supporting activities depend upon. Once THAT is apperciated, the death is a myth. Manasevaidamaaptavyam neha naanaasti kinchana | Mrityossa mrityum gacchati ya iha naaneva pashyati || One can attain THAT UNISON through one's mind alone which otherwise keeps distracting itself and all its fellow elements to the variety in this world as per its perception. One who insists on variety is bound to chase the (notion of) birth being chased by the (notion of) death perpetually because the very basis of sustenance of any variance is the perpetual procession of birth-death cycles. Sasyamiva pachyate martyah sasyamivaajaayate punah | One whose mind insists the life to be bound by the space and time in terms of matter and energy has no choice but to follow the recycling of the same in terms of one's birth(s) and death(s). On the other hand, one whose mind has appreciated THAT SOMETHING ELSE which is the basis for all the life-supporting activities within which everything is established will remain intact as they are forever can utter, Na mrityurna shankaa na me jaatibhedah | Pitaa naiva me naiva maataa na janma || There is no birth to experience the death and hence all other relations including all doubts and beliefs such as the fatherhood and motherhood whither away in such case. Death is a myth churned out in one's cognition that is bound by time and space. One who respects such notion or understanding has no choice but to chase its opposite called birth being chased by the self-generated fear of the same. Jaatasya hi dhruvam mrithyuh dhruvam janma mritasya cha | Tasmaadaparihaaryerthe na tvam shochitumarhasi || One who believes that one has " gained " life through birth is bound to be afraid of " loosing " the same through death. One who doubts that one may loose one's life is helpless but to crave for a renewal of life through another birth. If the perceptions of birth and death are to be construed upon as true, one cannot help but to go through such cycles as such … in that case, what is the point in worrying about it?! There is no point in generating a new worry that we could not resolve it … because, (1) it cannot be resolved as such; (2) there is no need to establish the resolution as we can be happy without such resolution as such; and (3) even if we could get a resolution, what is the guarantee that we will be happy when we are not ready to be happy?! Whether death is certain or not, we can never know for sure. But, the fear of death is very certain in our cognition. Our scriptures always focus on what is certain in our cogniotion and prove beyond doubt that there is no reason to be afraid of death whether the death is a myth or not in one's appreciation. That is the view I greatly value in our scriptures. Respects. Naga Narayana. -- Hari Om Within the atmospheric air, the vital airs of dead exist. In the interior of the vital airs, the mind exists. Know the world as existing within the mind like oil in the sesamum seed. Then - after death- that individual is described by the word " preta " by those with established custom. Consciuosness , associated with mental impressions , exists like wind and fragrance carried by it. When the individual soul dwells in a different vision having abandoned this visible world, then he is of various forms or deeds as in a dream or as in a fancy , suited to such experiences. In that very place WHERE ONE DIES , one would become possessed of memory or understanding within, as in his earlier incarnation. Then only, at the end of insensibility of death, he perceives another body. Whosoever and as many individual souls or creatures as are dead, deprived of liberation , exist there in space, so many are those worlds or worldly illusions , severally and seemingly imperishable. NEXT : Experiences at the time of death ! Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ------------------------- PRIOR POSTING Jai Hanuman Who dies Jee! Who takes birth ! The self neither dies nor is born anywhere. It only perceives this mistakenly like the confusion arising in a dream. The soul is mere consciousness. When and where possibly does it perish? In the case of its being distinct from consciousness , say, what else can a man be? Say, who has seen consciousness dead till this day- whose, which and how? Hundreds of thousands of bodies die. Consciousness is remaining imperishable. The names of life and death were invented only for that diversity of mere desires which the individual soul may experience in itself, Jee. Namaste Jee Jee Jee Shashikala --------------------------- Hare Krishna " Sab Jag Darte Maran Se Mere Maran Anand Kab Mariye Kab Bhetiye Pooran Parmanand " " The whole world is afraid of death, but my joy lies in death When shall I die and attain that Supreme Bliss " In his discourses, when speaking on topic 'Afraid of death' Swamiji would ask sadhaks to contemplate on whether they are prepared for the inevitable death. He would say - " If death comes today then are you ready to face it? If you are afraid of it then this means you have not completed your work. You might remember that in school days when teacher throws questions on a topic and if you have not studied it then you would try to hide yourself from the eyes of teacher. But if you have completed your homework then you would confidently raise the hand. Similarly if you are fearing death then it means you have not completed your work. The most important work of this human body is God-Realization. Just think over your life. The path which you have taken will that make you intrepid to death? If not then what are you planning to do in this human life.... " He would often say the above doha of Saint Kabir. From the book 'Ek Mahatma Ka Prasad' published by Gitapress,Gorakhpur " Sadhak's present spiritual practice can make his future a success. If one is steadfast in his spiritual practice then he won't have to fear death. Infact he will pleasantly wait for it. He is not afraid of death because he has completed the work of this human body. Then what would be the cause of worry? But one who is not utilizing his present and has left everything on future, one who is not prepared for his departure then he will have to fear death. On arrival of death he is dreaded and guilty. But at that moment he is unable to do anyting. A man's biggest helplessness and weakness is that whatever he knows he is not able to do that. " (Page 254 - 255) " A man is born crying and if he dies crying then what has he attained? What have you gained from human body? The greatness of this body is that we invite death with a smile " (Page 256) Every sadhak has experienced that the more he progresses on spiritual path the more fearless he becomes from death. Our Scriptures and Saints have said that on God-Realization even death comes to death. So true!! Thanks, Hare Krishna Varun P. Paprunia - Dear Sadhakas, Namaste! Just as good night sleep puts a temporary end to all " my " desires, fears, attachments, pleasures and pains, all of which are parading as " me-mine during waking hours " , the so called death puts an end to them permanently. I ask myself: Can I put an end to this " me " while living daily? If I can do it, then, Death is the greatest teacher I can have! For most of us living means relating to the world while engaging in Karmas. Here Gita's message is relevant in doing karmas without the false sense of " me-doer " . Thus real death is death of " me " , a false sense of separate existence based on my ignorance, and the only source of my suffering. Fortunately we can die while living only. So living is dying and dying is living. Every night one can die by examining hurts, selfish desires, fears, etc., obtained during the day and dying to them, making psyche like a clean slate for next day's freash start. Another point: in the death body disintegrates back into Universal Elements from which it was integrated at birth- space, air, fire, water, earth. Body is universal in nature, not personal, as it cannot survive in isolation. Mind is subset of human conditioning based on time and place of one's upbringing, on the substratum of Atman-Consciousness which is the only reality of " me " ! To me, thus inherited mind is same as one's karmas, impressions ridden Atman (sanskaras), due to identification with body-mind, which merges back upon death and is recycled back to new body. If one dispells the ignorance of believing to be an individual, by realizing the truth that one is only put together by such an Intelligent Universal Being(GOD-Brahman) for Divine play only and is not one's reality, one is free in this life! Nothing dies in all our dying! Thus one is Immortal Conscious Being, inspite of having physical body! One is never was/is/will be limited by birth-death of a body! This is what I learn from the so called Death! Namaskaras! .............Pratap Bhatt ------------------------------- Hari Om Then, infinite things spring up all round , such as the apprehension of space and time , the sky, things full of characteristic properties and actions and objects having stability till the end of the world. At the end of death , quite at once, one perceives the body in youth and also , space , time , activity , objects, the mind, the intellect, the senses and the like. When the flow of bio-energy in the channels of bio-energy is adverse or deprived and the creature indeed reaches the improper state of the vital airs or energy , then, his consciousness becomes, as it were, extinguished. Merely on account of the complete obstruction to the flow of bio- energy , when activity is extinguished , the body is declared as dead. Then, that person is named inert or senseless. When the man is dead , the vital airs are united with the atmospheric airs. All the directions are just filled with winds accompanied by vital airs pregnant with throbbing minds or thoughts. Within the atomospheric air, the vital airs of the dead exist. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ------------------------- Jai Hanuman Very good Jee. What a beautiful subject is this - Death ! " Tata " forever to this ever changing world and finding solace in the affectionate and loving eveready arms of Daddy, the Great. Dhaniram Bhaiyya ! Leave Dhan and become of Ram ! Jee Jee Shashikala ------------------------ Hari Om When the channels of bio energy receive the nourishment with their contractions and expansions on account of disease, then, the breathing abandons its own natural state in the body. When the airs or breaths that have gone in do not go out and vice versa on account of improper state of the channels of bio energy ( nadi-s) , then, due to the absence of movement of senses, there can be only memory and not sensory knowledge. When the air does not enter at all or go out, on account of agitation in the channels of bio energy in the body, then, he is declared as dead. When that body has become a corpse and the life force has gone to the state of external wind , the consciousness which is liberated from desires/mental impressions dwells in the own natural /obvious/sahaj state of one's true self. The name of that minute or subtle entity possessed of desires is declared as JEEVA. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ------------------------------ Dasara Navaratri Subhakankshalu " Art of Dieing " I started journey to reach my destination - took auto, then a bus ,next a train, then an aeroplane, and again a train, an auto and reached 'Destination'. All this journey is to reach my destination. The art of living is a comfort journey to reach final destination - a comfortable death, which blesses one without a need for another journey. It is said that the highest goal of human life to be blessed with Kaivalyam or Moksham or Mukti or Liberation . " What is the most wonderful thing on earth? " asked Yaksha to Yudhisthira. 'Aharnahanibhutani gachhantiha Yamalayam Seshahasthavaramichhanti kimaascharyamatahparam' " Everyday there go into the abode of Yama countless creatures. However, the living believe themselves to be immortal. Is it not the strangest thing on earth? " replied Dharmaraju. People don't want to die. All the rakshasaas like Ravanasura, Mahishaasura, Mushikaasura, Madhukaitabha, Bhasmaasura asked for boons of no death. Adi Sankaracharya, in Prasnottararatnamaalika 'Kim maranam - What is death? " Moorghatvam " " Ignoraance and foolishness " answered. " Kim Jeevitham - What is living ? " Anavadyam " " Living a faultless life " answered. " What is ignorance? " asked Yaksha and Yudhishthira replied " Not taking cognisance of one's duties is ignorance " Lord Krishna clarified us on death. ' Dehinosminyadhaadehe' just as boyhood, youth and old age are attributed to the soul through this body even so the death. 'Jaatasyahidhruvo mrutyuhu' for in that case death is certain for the born. The art of living is prescribed for learning the art of dieing. Then how to live artistically?. 'Yasmaannodvijateloko' , he who is not a source of annoyance to his fellow creatures, and who in his turn does not feel vexed with his fellow creatures and who is free from delight and envy, perturbation and fear. There is one thing worse than death to an individual. 'Akeertichapibhutani' infamy or ill will brought on a man enjoying popular esteem is worse than death. While living righteously and doing one's prescribed duties is desirable. 'Hatovaapraapsyasesvargam' , die and you will win heaven, asserted Bhagavad Gita. C.P.Gilman summarised philosophy of death. " Death? Why this fuss about death. Use your imagination,try to visualise a world without death - Death is an essential condition of life,not an evil " . All should learn art of living to die artistically with no another birth so that one need not worry about death again. Dr.Goli ------------------------- Namaskar. Jai Shri Ram. Regarding Death, Bhagavad Gita Ch 2 shlokaas 22 & 27 lay down crisply and precisely what we should know about and accept with grace! Our scriptures clearly state that Death is but a comma, a passing shower in the journey of life. As we do so we get the result and to enjoy or suffer that karma-phala, we take birth. Once a quota of Karma-phala is undergone in a life, that chapter closes and a new chapter opens as a new life, with the change-over being marked by what we call as Death. There is really nothing to be scared of Death; rather there is no meaning in getting scared, for Death is inevitable, just as Birth is. Our efforts should be to be good, do good, say good and see good, so that a new good life dawns! Major Ramanujam. -------------------------- Respected Sadhakas. Pranam Gita has said so much about death of a body. Refer (2/11-30) And said the truth and 100% truth. When a child is born, you do not know where it will live; what it will study, what profession it will follow. But it is known that one day it will die. Birth & death is a cycle of nature. The body cannot be alive for ever. Imagine a deathless world; wherein all generations of humans, plants, birds & all other species are alive. Some of them may be as old as you can imagine. What will be the condition on the earth ? Shall we have enough food for all? Shall we have enough space for all? Will the oxygen & ozone cover be adequate? The list can go on. Today we find people complaining of ill health from the age of 35 or so. The eyes need spectacles at 30 yrs; knees start rattling at 50 yrs. One can not see at 60 due to cataract; hearing loss starts at 60 yrs. So if there is deathless society, what will be our condition of those at an age of 200 or 300 or above ? But mother nature has made things easy. Do not be afraid of death. It is only a change of dress. People sing " Tum jio hajaron saal ... " at birthdays. Please remember it is a curse to wish so & not a blessing if it comes true. THESE ARE MY PERSONAL VIEWS. BUT PLEASE THINK ABOUT THEM With best wishes and pranam to all. Suhas Govind Gogate ---------------------------- -Shree Hari- I have pasted in some sound points from the Gitaji dealing with death rebirth and so on. B.G:- Just as a person puts on new garments after discarding the old ones, similarly, the living entity or the individual soul acquires new bodies after casting away the old bodies. (2.22) All beings are unmanifest, or invisible to our physical eyes, before birth and after death. They manifest between the birth and the death only. What is there to grieve about? (2.28) (B.G. 25-30 is worth reading in giving a rounded view.) After many births, the enlightened one resorts to Me by realizing that everything is, indeed, My manifestation. Such a great soul is very rare. (7.19) I like to take these thoughts a step further. I read an account that happened in India ,(many sadhaks could give name and place to this event better than myself, for sure). There was a holy man living near a town/village, his custom was to come down from his abode daily, to perform his sacred duties, in return the people of the town would offer sustenance to this man . One day the people of the town were surprised by this holy ones, appearance he was surrounded by a brilliant aura that all could see; that was his last day in body. A similar thing happened in the USA when a visiting swami, appeared in similar manner before a large audience of devotees. Again he passed from this physical world. Now I will now come to Qi or better known to most sadhaks as Prana. This is one time I will speak with true knowledge. In the arena as it were of the Martial Arts and Quigong, energy can be experienced, moving through the body, radiating from it and so on. It seems to be associated with those who are spiritual, it is coaxed not driven. (I will leave as thus). So the point I am making is, that which we may consider as the gross body, is far more than just that, and remember energy is indestructible, it can only change. After all, all is from the source Paramatman. With Respect and Divine Love, Mike Keenor -------------------------- PRIOR POSTING Shree Hari Ram Ram IN ENGLISH Death is of the body, not of the Self. When we do not ever die, then what to speak and what to listen? Thank you very much, Ram Ram, Sarvottam IN HINDI Mrutyu sharir ki hoti hai, swayam ki nahin. Jab apni mrutyu hoti hi nahin, toh kyaa kahe, kyaa sune ? Sahadhanyavaad, Ram Ram Sarvottam ------------------------------ Hari Om Death is indeed the disappearance of body and that death is the greatest joy. Death is not at any time , of the nature of complete destruction. The dead one is spoken of as lost. I consider that as untrue and improper. So does Gita and Sanatan Dharma in unison. Being born repeatedly , he is perceived , separated by space and time. Continuance in different wishes or imaginations of oneself is called death. The individual soul, remaining with its desires, departs leaving the body and dwells in a different body, as a monkey leaving a forest tree betakes itself to another tree. The individual souls are led here and there by their own individual desire or mental impressions in a different extended place and a different point of time. As the seer of a dream , who met death in his dream world, is again born to see a different dream consisting of waking state, so, that seer of the waking state , who met with death in the world of the waking state, is again born to see a different dream consisting of waking state ! The man who is dead in this world is declared as awakened elsewhere . After the loss of consciousness in death, all the worlds quickly become manifest completely to an individual soul, as visible objects appear by the opening of eyes. After death, the wealth of creation consisting of the visible objects of three worlds , arrives at perception just in a moment. Death does not lead to fear or danger. If death is complete annihilation, then there is the destruction of the disease of worldly existence. Being dead , if he is not born again , in this respect also, there is great prosperity and elevation ! Hence death always is a pleasant thing. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B --------------------------- ORIGINAL QUESTION Dear Sadaks, It is not Khatha as Dhaniram says. The forum is giving facts. The death is predecided based on ones previous birth Karmas. The fact of birth is because one has Karmas to his account. Karmas are destined to undergo. The period to undergo such Karmas, the place of birth, environment, parents, education, type of job, wife, brothers and sisterts, friends, etc are predecided by 27 stars which is computerised by virusless system. Once Karma effect of previous birth completes even if one is 16 years or 70 years old death takes place. Since it is destined if one lives as he likes, he is adding Karmas to his account of this birth to be passed over to next birth. Mr. Birla died in plane crash just before minutes of landing. Many are very well just before few hours of death. Death and birth are same side of one coin. The 6 children of Sri Devaki (mother of krishna) were destined to be killed by Kans. Ravana was destined to be killed by Sri Rama as such Sri Rama who had vknowledge of past, present and future crowned Vibushan as King of Sri Lanka much before war started. Death is certain but time is uncertain. But there are saints like Poodhanam, Tukaram went to heaven with body defiying death. Hanuman, Vibushan and few other were blessed as " Sriranjeevi " (alway living). B.Sathyanarayan Namaste and Jai Seeta Ram! I have been a recipient of your in depth information for a long time and gained considerably knowledge from it topics and contents. Can I ask if you can share your views on 'death' and if you could elaborate in details? Lots of information on the living, let's hear your katha on death with specific emphasis on Bhagavad Gita's views. Thanks, Dhaniram -------------------------- ---------------------------- GUIDELINES FOR POSTING A RESPONSE: 1. 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