Guest guest Posted October 11, 2008 Report Share Posted October 11, 2008 Is destiny pre-planned. In Gita, God says, he gives human beings the freedom to act, the choice is man's and he does according to his character or nature(swabhav). If it is true why it has been said " bhaagya se pehle, aur bhaagya se hatkar kuch nahin hotaa " " beyond one's fortune and misfortune, nothing happens " (translation may be incorrect). Is our every step pre-planned (destined) ? Saagar Kadam --------------------------- Shree Hari Ram Ram A couple of very lengthy similiar discussions took place earlier this year. 1) Why disturb God's plans? /message/1307 2) Do we have a choice of actions? /message/1298 Saagarji, either you or any other Sadhak that has time could please help summarize these discussions, as they will be very helpful to the rest of us, for a deeper understanding of topic / responses. From Gita Talk Moderator Ram Ram ------------------------------ GUIDELINES FOR POSTING A RESPONSE: 1. The group is focused on the Holy Gitaji, therefore, responses which further clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will be the area of focus. 2. Making reference of Gitaji shloka is highly encouraged. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures. 3. Please be as concise and to the point, addressing only the subject at hand, thus respecting sadhaka's time. Please limit response to half a book page (3-4 paragraphs). 4. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas 5. Please do not include links to the other sites or other organizations (we do not have the bandwidth to review links to determine if content is appropriate for distribution). 6. Complete reproduction of texts from any book is strongly discouraged, however partial cut - paste is acceptable and references may be made of the book or author(but not links to sites). 7. Kindly do not include personal information - phone #, address etc. 8. Please use appropriate judgement and only address the response to a particular individual, where it makes sense to do so. 9. Due to the large readership, only those responses will be posted which are in line with the general philosophy of taking Shrimad Bhagavad Gita as the reference. 10. Moderator will reject any content that does not meet guidelines. However, for expediency, moderator at his discretion, may modify / delete portions of the posting deemed irrelevant to the core discussion (e.g. personal information, opinions / feelings etc.) 11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use of only Sanskrit words, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit bracketed wherever possible. 13. Any personal remarks over the knowledge of any sadhak or about the stage at which any sadhak is standing in his quest / sadhna / spiritual journey - must not be included in your posting. Also, there should not be any sarcasm towards fellow sadhaks in this spiritual learning and sharing. MODERATOR Ram Ram Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 12, 2008 Report Share Posted October 12, 2008 Question 1: Is destiny pre-planned. In Gita, God says, he gives human beings the freedom to act, the choice is man's and he does according to his character or nature(swabhav). If it is true why it has been said " bhaagya se pehle, aur bhaagya se hatkar kuch nahin hotaa " " beyond one's fortune and misfortune, nothing happens " (translation may be incorrect). Is our every step pre-planned (destined) ? Saagar Kadam Question 2 - Added What is Gita's view on destiny? Suresh Goel --------------------------- NEW POSTING Hari Om It is written in scriptures as rightly stated by you - " kuchh nahin HOTAA " ( nothing " happens " ) not " kuchh nahin " karata " (nothing is " done " ). These are two separate things. One- what we " do " and two- what " happens " . You have control/independence regarding " doing " (karma) but not regarding " happening " (result). Hence a human being has complete independence and control over what he " does " in life time. Your fresh karmas are not pre destined. No step of yours (doing) is pre destined/planned. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ------------------------ What we are undergoing today is the result of our past karmas but what we will undergo in future will be the result of our present karmas. So we do have a choice. Hari Shanker Deo ------------------------ The conecpts of predestination and free will are mutually reconcilable. While God has given us freedom to choose, He knows in advance how we will choose! B.S.Raghavan ------------------------- Shree Hari Ram Ram A couple of very lengthy similiar discussions took place earlier this year. 1) Why disturb God's plans? /message/1307 2) Do we have a choice of actions? /message/1298 Saagarji, either you or any other Sadhak that has time could please help summarize these discussions, as they will be very helpful to the rest of us, for a deeper understanding of topic / responses. From Gita Talk Moderator Ram Ram ------------------------------ GUIDELINES FOR POSTING A RESPONSE: 1. The group is focused on the Holy Gitaji, therefore, responses which further clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will be the area of focus. 2. Making reference of Gitaji shloka is highly encouraged. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures. 3. Please be as concise and to the point, addressing only the subject at hand, thus respecting sadhaka's time. Please limit response to half a book page (3-4 paragraphs). 4. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas 5. Please do not include links to the other sites or other organizations (we do not have the bandwidth to review links to determine if content is appropriate for distribution). 6. Complete reproduction of texts from any book is strongly discouraged, however partial cut - paste is acceptable and references may be made of the book or author(but not links to sites). 7. Kindly do not include personal information - phone #, address etc. 8. Please use appropriate judgement and only address the response to a particular individual, where it makes sense to do so. 9. Due to the large readership, only those responses will be posted which are in line with the general philosophy of taking Shrimad Bhagavad Gita as the reference. 10. Moderator will reject any content that does not meet guidelines. However, for expediency, moderator at his discretion, may modify / delete portions of the posting deemed irrelevant to the core discussion (e.g. personal information, opinions / feelings etc.) 11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use of only Sanskrit words, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit bracketed wherever possible. 12. Any personal remarks over the knowledge of any sadhak or about the stage at which any sadhak is standing in his quest / sadhna / spiritual journey - must not be included in your posting. Also, there should not be any sarcasm towards fellow sadhaks in this spiritual learning and sharing. GITA TALK MODERATOR Ram Ram Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 13, 2008 Report Share Posted October 13, 2008 Question 1: Is destiny pre-planned. In Gita, God says, he gives human beings the freedom to act, the choice is man's and he does according to his character or nature(swabhav). If it is true why it has been said " bhaagya se pehle, aur bhaagya se hatkar kuch nahin hotaa " " beyond one's fortune and misfortune, nothing happens " (translation may be incorrect). Is our every step pre-planned (destined) ? Saagar Kadam Question 2 - Added What is Gita's view on destiny? Suresh Goel --------------------------- NEW POSTING Jai Hanuman A human being comes in this world for fulfulling four desires Jee! 1. Artha (money, wealth, health, ownership of material objects, house, properties, assets, cattle, horses, beauty, virtue, right, power, ability, affluence etc ) 2. Kaam (consumption of eight-fold worldly pleasures Jee, arising from smell, touch, form, taste, sound, and consumption of pleasure arising from respect, praise and peaceful leisure) 3. Dharma (Righteousness, Duty, Truth, being good) and 4. Moksha (Liberation, Freedom from bondage, God Realisation) So there are four desires Jee. As against these four desires - there are two things available to him. 1. Prarabdha (destiny) - At present he has no control over it. 2. Purushartha (Current karmas / deeds - he has independent control over the same) Now out of four desires - first two viz Artha and Kama are directly and exclusively dependent on Prarabdha (Destiny) ONLY.. They are indeed subject matter of fate only Jee! Your present actions have no correlation with the same ! Clear Jee ? Balance two viz Dharma and Moksha are subject matter dependent upon your present actions (Purushartha - present deeds) only. There is no role of destiny here ! Absolutely no role Jee! Since a lot of humanity falls within the ambit of BG 18:32 - What is subject matter of Destiny by religiously following BG 18:32 - we have employed Purushartha there !! What is subject matter of Purushartha, by religiously following BG 18:32, we have employed Destiny there !! That is what Taat Shree (Swamiji) is explaining in the latest Sadhak message by giving example of two patients having disease of eye and stomach !!! Namaste Jee Jee Jee Shashikala ---------------------------- Life is Destiny vs. Life is Free Will Everything is destiny. Even the way you think about, the reason you breath, the incidences that you blink, the purpose you act for, is pre-destined. If you think you did something in certain way, one can always say that that is what you were pre-destined for. Where is the free will here? Everything is free will. If I do not push myself into an act nothing will happen from my side. If anything happens related to me, my presence is the reason for that. I can always change my ways to adapt the way I want. I have always been doing it. Therefore, I am the reason for whatever I am. Every entity is the sole reason for whatever it is. Basically, there are two factors for any action to occur. One is me who wants to participate in an action. The other is a set of environmental factors that seem to govern my actions. One who insists that oneself is the sole responsibility for anything that has happened to him/her would pledge his/her life to protect their belief as the truth. One who insists that the environmental factors govern everything in ones life (they would argue that whatever you think you are wanting was also fed to you from the environment once upon a time, with a good reason) would stake their lives to protect their belief as the truth. Both are basically protecting themselves because they believe that they are their beliefs. One can argue that all free wills are nothing but the inertial residue of the environmental stimuli on the corresponding individuals. At the same time, one can counter the argument that every environmental stimulus is nothing but the free will in its own sense. One can never have a dispute between these two ideologies because they are both correct. Next comes, how can two mutually exclusive opposites can be both correct? Look at the above argument closely. Are they really opposites? They are actually exclusively inclusive of each other in the very argument. Destiny is the Free Will of The Universal Reality. Free will is the destiny every variance is blessed with to execute itself in its variations. Therefore, the destiny is free will and free will is destiny: || Yadeveha tadamutra yadamutra tadanviha || " Here " is free will and " there " is destiny. Whatever is there is here and whatever is here is verily there. They are nothing but the same sprouting as different in our perception in a singular fashion. But, with a closer look, we can observe that they feed each other and they feed on each other for their own sustenance. Just because I cannot visualize my back it does not mean it does not exist. If I turn, my previous front becomes my back. The front, the back, the known, the unknown, the free will, the destiny … and all the relatives that I perceive … they are all just illusions of the restless mind that I have! Respects Naga Narayana --------------------------- Dear Sadaks, You are given the freedom to act. This freedom and action makes cause and effect. Suppose you steal someone money (there is freedom to do so) but your cause is recorded by your Aura and you loose much more in same birth or next birth. Similarly your action such as pooja/meditation is also paid as Karuniya from GOD. So you have the freedom to do anything you in this birth, but at the same time you are destined to undergo something that you have done earlier. So one is in cycle of death and birth. Example: So many saints who were divine and were in permanant contact with GOD and NO interest in living, had to live on this earth until their Karma of previous birth was exhausted. Saint Thyagaraja in south was not interested his life cried for Sri Rama. Sri Rama appeared and gave him the date and time of departure of his soul to liberation. Tukaram was given date to fly to Vaikunt. While ordinary man also lives beyond doctor hope or dies even when doctor has hope. B.Sathyanarayan ---------------------------- i would like to mention - yes just mention two scientific concepts that may be related Geodesic - is a natural path of a particle Gravitation in Einsteinian general relativistic concept is described as a trajectory destined by gravitational field. atul kumthekar ---------------------------- PRIOR POSTING Hari Om It is written in scriptures as rightly stated by you - " kuchh nahin HOTAA " ( nothing " happens " ) not " kuchh nahin " karata " (nothing is " done " ). These are two separate things. One- what we " do " and two- what " happens " . You have control/independence regarding " doing " (karma) but not regarding " happening " (result). Hence a human being has complete independence and control over what he " does " in life time. Your fresh karmas are not pre destined. No step of yours (doing) is pre destined/planned. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ------------------------ What we are undergoing today is the result of our past karmas but what we will undergo in future will be the result of our present karmas. So we do have a choice. Hari Shanker Deo ------------------------ The conecpts of predestination and free will are mutually reconcilable. While God has given us freedom to choose, He knows in advance how we will choose! B.S.Raghavan ------------------------- Shree Hari Ram Ram A couple of very lengthy similiar discussions took place earlier this year. 1) Why disturb God's plans? /message/1307 2) Do we have a choice of actions? /message/1298 Saagarji, either you or any other Sadhak that has time could please help summarize these discussions, as they will be very helpful to the rest of us, for a deeper understanding of topic / responses. From Gita Talk Moderator Ram Ram ------------------------------ GUIDELINES FOR POSTING A RESPONSE: 1. The group is focused on the Holy Gitaji, therefore, responses which further clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will be the area of focus. 2. Making reference of Gitaji shloka is highly encouraged. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures. 3. Please be as concise and to the point, addressing only the subject at hand, thus respecting sadhaka's time. Please limit response to half a book page (3-4 paragraphs). 4. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas 5. Please do not include links to the other sites or other organizations (we do not have the bandwidth to review links to determine if content is appropriate for distribution). 6. Complete reproduction of texts from any book is strongly discouraged, however partial cut - paste is acceptable and references may be made of the book or author(but not links to sites). 7. Kindly do not include personal information - phone #, address etc. 8. Please use appropriate judgement and only address the response to a particular individual, where it makes sense to do so. 9. Due to the large readership, only those responses will be posted which are in line with the general philosophy of taking Shrimad Bhagavad Gita as the reference. 10. Moderator will reject any content that does not meet guidelines. However, for expediency, moderator at his discretion, may modify / delete portions of the posting deemed irrelevant to the core discussion (e.g. personal information, opinions / feelings etc.) 11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use of only Sanskrit words, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit bracketed wherever possible. 12. Any personal remarks over the knowledge of any sadhak or about the stage at which any sadhak is standing in his quest / sadhna / spiritual journey - must not be included in your posting. Also, there should not be any sarcasm towards fellow sadhaks in this spiritual learning and sharing. GITA TALK MODERATOR Ram Ram Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 14, 2008 Report Share Posted October 14, 2008 Question 1: Is destiny pre-planned. In Gita, God says, he gives human beings the freedom to act, the choice is man's and he does according to his character or nature(swabhav). If it is true why it has been said " bhaagya se pehle, aur bhaagya se hatkar kuch nahin hotaa " " beyond one's fortune and misfortune, nothing happens " (translation may be incorrect). Is our every step pre-planned (destined) ? Saagar Kadam Question 2 - Added What is Gita's view on destiny? Suresh Goel --------------------------- NEW POSTING Hari Om In fact as per Yoga Vaashishtha , there is no element as " destiny " or " fate " existing. All are results of deeds only. There is a gap of time between your actions (karmas) and reactions ( results). Since we can't comprehend and precisely co relate particular karma and particular result , therefore, the result is termed as output of " destiny " . We also don't recall all of our karmas. A person should always be certain that he deserved the result. Belief in destiny then acts as pain reliever. Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj had extensively and with amazing clarity explained the Karma theory. I have never come across a better explanation on this otherwise very deep subject. Says Lord Krishna even in Gita - Gahana Karmano gatih ( Very deep is the theory of karma) ! Sadhaks are welcome to ask any questions on the subject. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B -------------------------- Restless Ego … Osccillations between Destiny and Free Will There are three variables on both sides of an action – subject and environment (objects) – known, knowable and unknowable. The known is what I insist to have a knowledge upon with my sensory approval. The knowable is the one which is still within my sensory spectrum that I have not cared to or equipped to acknowledge. The unknowable is the one that can never be perceived within my sensory spectrum that I possess or I am blessed with. Some acknowledge the futility of chasing an unknowable for it is not explorable by definition and hence is not manipulatable for one's benefits. Their opinion is, some thing that is of no benefit to me need not be acknowledged … after all, what is the use?! They obviously have to advocate that the life is run by free will. Such people are driven by desires as all their actions and beliefs hover around their desires. Their very individual identity is the set of their desires. Others acknowledge the futility of praising the known for many reasons (1) all the miseries are brought in through these knowns – ignorance is bliss – knowledge brings anticipation and fear; (2) these knowns elude us by their continuously changing attributes; and (3) after all, these knowns are useless because we are still unhappy in-spite of knowing them, in-spite of how many knowns are known; (4) No known can ever change or stop what is going to happen; (5) no known can bring us whatever we want … They obviously have to advocate that the life is run by destiny – the unknowns, The Unknowable. Such people are driven by fears as all their actions and beliefs hover around their fears. Their very individual identity is the set of their fears. To take shelter from their own fears they start believing that some unknown force protects them. We often mix up a set of known factors to define what we are and what our environment is and insist that the universe is that. One who insists that the world is governed by ONLY KNOWNS and refuse to care about the unknowns (for a good reason, anyway they are unknown and what can I do with them?!) will tend to insist that life is made of Free Will. It all depends on who I think I am. If I can define whatever I am, all such definitions depend on so many experiences I have accumulated from the environment over my life. Then where is the free will since the very definition of my very identity is nothing but a bunch of environmental stimuli? We often get carried away by the fears of uncertainties in life and declare in frustration that we are just pawns in the hands of life. One who insists that the unknowns overwhelm the knowns in all respects jump to conclude that the unknowns run the show and refuse to respect the knowns. One who insists that the world is governed by ONLY UNKNOWNS and refuses to respect the knowns (for a good reason, what great things could I achieve with them anyway?!) will tend to insist that life is made of Destiny. It all depends on who I think I am. For every expression that I am, I have to act up. I become what I am only through my free will. If I can define whatever I am, all such definitions depend on so many perceptions created within my cognition. Though they seem to have been triggered by the environmental stimuli through the senses, they are received and generated uniquely by the individual – no two individual can have identical perception and experience in any event with identical characteristics. After all, the " stimuli " are generated internally based on my personality to serve my desires. It is my desire that brings in the stimuli; it is me who interpret these stimuli to make sense out of them; and it is me who manipulate them and enjoy the result. I know what I am and what I do – I am my motifs and acceptances and I do what I want and what I accept. Then where is the destiny dictating me what I am and what to do when the very definition of my identity is my motifs and acceptances? Respects Naga Narayana. To be contd. --------------------------- I do not know who sends me the messages, thanks to who-so- ever is sending it. I too have a little query on one of the shloka of my interest.... it states " Annat Bhavanti bhootani, Parjanyaat Anna Sambhava Yadnyaat Bhavati parjanyaah, Yadnya Karma Samarabhet " While the first line is easily understood, How to understand the 2nd line? ..... can one verify .... by experimentation ....Yadnyaat Bhavati Parjnyaah ? Has any one tried it? what is the sample size? what is the result? Which type of yadnaah will have to be performed and what would be cost of it? who can perform it? Please let me know Ajit Gokhale ---------------------------- PRIOR POSTING Jai Hanuman A human being comes in this world for fulfulling four desires Jee! 1. Artha (money, wealth, health, ownership of material objects, house, properties, assets, cattle, horses, beauty, virtue, right, power, ability, affluence etc ) 2. Kaam (consumption of eight-fold worldly pleasures Jee, arising from smell, touch, form, taste, sound, and consumption of pleasure arising from respect, praise and peaceful leisure) 3. Dharma (Righteousness, Duty, Truth, being good) and 4. Moksha (Liberation, Freedom from bondage, God Realisation) So there are four desires Jee. As against these four desires - there are two things available to him. 1. Prarabdha (destiny) - At present he has no control over it. 2. Purushartha (Current karmas / deeds - he has independent control over the same) Now out of four desires - first two viz Artha and Kama are directly and exclusively dependent on Prarabdha (Destiny) ONLY.. They are indeed subject matter of fate only Jee! Your present actions have no correlation with the same ! Clear Jee ? Balance two viz Dharma and Moksha are subject matter dependent upon your present actions (Purushartha - present deeds) only. There is no role of destiny here ! Absolutely no role Jee! Since a lot of humanity falls within the ambit of BG 18:32 - What is subject matter of Destiny by religiously following BG 18:32 - we have employed Purushartha there !! What is subject matter of Purushartha, by religiously following BG 18:32, we have employed Destiny there !! That is what Taat Shree (Swamiji) is explaining in the latest Sadhak message by giving example of two patients having disease of eye and stomach !!! Namaste Jee Jee Jee Shashikala ---------------------------- Life is Destiny vs. Life is Free Will Everything is destiny. Even the way you think about, the reason you breath, the incidences that you blink, the purpose you act for, is pre-destined. If you think you did something in certain way, one can always say that that is what you were pre-destined for. Where is the free will here? Everything is free will. If I do not push myself into an act nothing will happen from my side. If anything happens related to me, my presence is the reason for that. I can always change my ways to adapt the way I want. I have always been doing it. Therefore, I am the reason for whatever I am. Every entity is the sole reason for whatever it is. Basically, there are two factors for any action to occur. One is me who wants to participate in an action. The other is a set of environmental factors that seem to govern my actions. One who insists that oneself is the sole responsibility for anything that has happened to him/her would pledge his/her life to protect their belief as the truth. One who insists that the environmental factors govern everything in ones life (they would argue that whatever you think you are wanting was also fed to you from the environment once upon a time, with a good reason) would stake their lives to protect their belief as the truth. Both are basically protecting themselves because they believe that they are their beliefs. One can argue that all free wills are nothing but the inertial residue of the environmental stimuli on the corresponding individuals. At the same time, one can counter the argument that every environmental stimulus is nothing but the free will in its own sense. One can never have a dispute between these two ideologies because they are both correct. Next comes, how can two mutually exclusive opposites can be both correct? Look at the above argument closely. Are they really opposites? They are actually exclusively inclusive of each other in the very argument. Destiny is the Free Will of The Universal Reality. Free will is the destiny every variance is blessed with to execute itself in its variations. Therefore, the destiny is free will and free will is destiny: || Yadeveha tadamutra yadamutra tadanviha || " Here " is free will and " there " is destiny. Whatever is there is here and whatever is here is verily there. They are nothing but the same sprouting as different in our perception in a singular fashion. But, with a closer look, we can observe that they feed each other and they feed on each other for their own sustenance. Just because I cannot visualize my back it does not mean it does not exist. If I turn, my previous front becomes my back. The front, the back, the known, the unknown, the free will, the destiny … and all the relatives that I perceive … they are all just illusions of the restless mind that I have! Respects Naga Narayana --------------------------- Dear Sadaks, You are given the freedom to act. This freedom and action makes cause and effect. Suppose you steal someone money (there is freedom to do so) but your cause is recorded by your Aura and you loose much more in same birth or next birth. Similarly your action such as pooja/meditation is also paid as Karuniya from GOD. So you have the freedom to do anything you in this birth, but at the same time you are destined to undergo something that you have done earlier. So one is in cycle of death and birth. Example: So many saints who were divine and were in permanant contact with GOD and NO interest in living, had to live on this earth until their Karma of previous birth was exhausted. Saint Thyagaraja in south was not interested his life cried for Sri Rama. Sri Rama appeared and gave him the date and time of departure of his soul to liberation. Tukaram was given date to fly to Vaikunt. While ordinary man also lives beyond doctor hope or dies even when doctor has hope. B.Sathyanarayan ---------------------------- i would like to mention - yes just mention two scientific concepts that may be related Geodesic - is a natural path of a particle Gravitation in Einsteinian general relativistic concept is described as a trajectory destined by gravitational field. atul kumthekar ---------------------------- PRIOR POSTING Hari Om It is written in scriptures as rightly stated by you - " kuchh nahin HOTAA " ( nothing " happens " ) not " kuchh nahin " karata " (nothing is " done " ). These are two separate things. One- what we " do " and two- what " happens " . You have control/independence regarding " doing " (karma) but not regarding " happening " (result). Hence a human being has complete independence and control over what he " does " in life time. Your fresh karmas are not pre destined. No step of yours (doing) is pre destined/planned. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ------------------------ What we are undergoing today is the result of our past karmas but what we will undergo in future will be the result of our present karmas. So we do have a choice. Hari Shanker Deo ------------------------ The conecpts of predestination and free will are mutually reconcilable. While God has given us freedom to choose, He knows in advance how we will choose! B.S.Raghavan ------------------------- Shree Hari Ram Ram A couple of very lengthy similiar discussions took place earlier this year. 1) Why disturb God's plans? /message/1307 2) Do we have a choice of actions? /message/1298 Saagarji, either you or any other Sadhak that has time could please help summarize these discussions, as they will be very helpful to the rest of us, for a deeper understanding of topic / responses. From Gita Talk Moderator Ram Ram ------------------------------ GUIDELINES FOR POSTING A RESPONSE: 1. The group is focused on the Holy Gitaji, therefore, responses which further clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will be the area of focus. 2. Making reference of Gitaji shloka is highly encouraged. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures. 3. Please be as concise and to the point, addressing only the subject at hand, thus respecting sadhaka's time. Please limit response to half a book page (3-4 paragraphs). 4. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas 5. Please do not include links to the other sites or other organizations (we do not have the bandwidth to review links to determine if content is appropriate for distribution). 6. Complete reproduction of texts from any book is strongly discouraged, however partial cut - paste is acceptable and references may be made of the book or author(but not links to sites). 7. Kindly do not include personal information - phone #, address etc. 8. Please use appropriate judgement and only address the response to a particular individual, where it makes sense to do so. 9. Due to the large readership, only those responses will be posted which are in line with the general philosophy of taking Shrimad Bhagavad Gita as the reference. 10. Moderator will reject any content that does not meet guidelines. However, for expediency, moderator at his discretion, may modify / delete portions of the posting deemed irrelevant to the core discussion (e.g. personal information, opinions / feelings etc.) 11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use of only Sanskrit words, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit bracketed wherever possible. 12. Any personal remarks over the knowledge of any sadhak or about the stage at which any sadhak is standing in his quest / sadhna / spiritual journey - must not be included in your posting. Also, there should not be any sarcasm towards fellow sadhaks in this spiritual learning and sharing. GITA TALK MODERATOR Ram Ram Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 14, 2008 Report Share Posted October 14, 2008 Question 1: Is destiny pre-planned. In Gita, God says, he gives human beings the freedom to act, the choice is man's and he does according to his character or nature(swabhav). If it is true why it has been said " bhaagya se pehle, aur bhaagya se hatkar kuch nahin hotaa " " beyond one's fortune and misfortune, nothing happens " (translation may be incorrect). Is our every step pre-planned (destined) ? Saagar Kadam Question 2: What is Gita's view on destiny? Suresh Goel --------------------------- NEW POSTING Shree Hari Ram Ram Brother Kadam ! In Shri Gitaji, Paramatma Himself has said (Believe it to be the final words) - To perform actions, you have the rights (which you are capable of doing) and regarding the fruit (i.e. the outcome), it is in My hands (not in yours) - Gita 2:47. Now that which will happen (i.e. Destiny), in the meaning of this word, whatever actions you perform, it is definite that at that very moment the fruit is inevitably determined. Now whatever actions you desire, you do. Your give and take is with the actions, not with Paramatma. Therefore with great care and understanding perform actions. Ram Ram Sarvottam Bhaiyyaa Kadam ! Shree Gitaji mein swayam Paramatama ne kaha diyaa (uskiko antim maan lo). Karma karnaa toh tere adhikaar mein hai (jo tu ker saktaa hai) aur karma kaa phal (kyaa hogaa) mere haath mein hai (tere haath mein nahin). Gita 2:47. Ab honi (jisse angreji mein Destiny kaha rahe hai) is arth mein nischit (poorva nirdhaarit) hai ki jis shun jo bhi karma hogaa, usi kshan uskaa phal bhi nischit ho jaayegaa. Ab aap jo karma chaahe wah kare, Karma se Paramatmaa ka nahin, aapkaa lena-dena hua, sauch –samajhker kijiye. Ram Ram Sarvottam ------------------------- This is the most interesting topic ever to be posted here and the various explanations are somewhat interesting too. Assuming we take this birth to fulfil our karmic past there obviously must have been an origin. If we have evolved from the various species to this human birth the first one must have been sin-free or rather the freshest of the fresh human race member. Along the line we may have commited various sins and or good deeds and subsequently re-born many a times to enjoy the fruits or to pay back until we blend with the Lord. The question is how is the first ever birth of the human form determined? Were we originally good souls in heaven's bode with the Lord and banished to this earth as human beings for some sins committed there? Or were we evolved from the various living species as in Darwin's theory, and if that be the case, from which point (animals/birds/plants etc.) do we take this human birth?.Since animals do not commit sins how are they involved in the cycle going upwards towards the human race? Is there anything to this effect in the Gita? I am sincerely hoping that readers who are well versed with the Gita could throw some light towards these nagging questions. Thank you very much. Mahendra Raj ------------------------------- " Free will and destiny are like two wheels of a cart running together to make this life happen. " There is a danger in the perpetual entertainment opposite polarities in one's life … the two opposites perpetually try to corrupt each other bringing themselves to momentary agreement – letting one or the other " win " – in which both take rest and are ever ready to jump for the next conflict. Natural to our ignorant tendencies, we would hang on to each on the wrong side – praising oneself at success and blaming some destiny at failure – to attain such illusory and transitory gratification. In our perception, they are distinctly different from each other – rather alien to each other. Then how can they ever cooperate to make this balance occur? Obviously, at any conflict, they both claim their stakes to own the positive side of all the events since they are identified with their positivity in the first place – one who is identified with positivity can never accept any suggestion of negativity on oneself. The ego entertains such debates so that it can jump in to take the altar of superiority to judge the two. The ego jumps to the judgment that promotes its own positivity – tendencies. It claims itself to be the reason for what it likes; and blames the destiny for what it does not like. Either side it is clueless. It thinks it itself is the free will – but when was it free and has it ever exercised its freedom?! It blames destiny – but what is it and has the ego ever faced it to know what it is?! A clever ego actually blames the destiny sugarcoated with apparent praise – don't be fooled by that – if one does not hesitate to take the credit for " good " , he/she is not submitting to destiny even though he/she believes to be surrendering to destiny in certain situations of desperation. This tussle between praising and blaming will strengthen its ignorance further for stronger arguments in the next event. Stronger the arguments, bitter the fight, more diverge the sense of likes and dislikes, more intense the feelings in one's experience, more vehement the debating parties are, … thicker and wider the ignorance one is eclipsed with. Two wheels are not synchronized without an axle … the above argument lacks this third element – the element of unification unifying the two opposites to one. Our lives are mixtures of both polarities in different intensities and proportions. One who seeks the conflicts between the polarities (Preya) in every event is bound to be consumed by the very conflict as explained above. However, one who sees the unity in the apparent conflict (Shreya) in every event is bound to be with the unity, The Bliss. Preya's focus is always on one of the wheels constantly drifting from one to another. Shreya's focus is always on the balance of the wheels and therefore has a chance to shift the focus to the axle. The Preya expands these wheels – sometimes unevenly to our torture – increasing the intensity of our conflicting tendencies by increasing their inertia. Shreya shrinks these wheels evenly in a balanced way to maintain our balance as well as to reduce our emotional intensity by reducing the inertia of our tendencies. Preya runs the two wheels in opposite directions promoting one and demoting the other ... relegating one while delegating the other. Preya instigates internal racism by letting one wheel (favored by the ego) to outpace the other letting the system swirl in its self-generated whirlpool. Shreya balances the wheel motion to be in equilibrium to start with, reduces their pace gradually, and reduces the wheels leading the system to become one with the axle eventually. At limits both theories are right … || Yadeveha tadamutra yadamutra tadanviha || If I can absolutely establish myself in what I think, every pole is absolute as such! If I stick to pure Free Will, I have no room for miseries – after all, I am the reason for everything. If I stick to pure Destiny, I again have no room for miseries – after all THAT is the reason for everything. Since the result is the same – I cannot be miserable – both are correct … of course, ONLY IF I can stick to either one absolutely. If I can't, … || Mrityossa mritumaapnoti ya iha naaneva pashyati || One who entertains the self-conflicting and self-contradicting polarities in one's notions is bound to be chased by the fear of negative being pulled by the desire of positive … torn apart in miseries. Respects Naga Narayana. To be contd. … --------------------------- PRIOR POSTING Hari Om In fact as per Yoga Vaashishtha , there is no element as " destiny " or " fate " existing. All are results of deeds only. There is a gap of time between your actions (karmas) and reactions ( results). Since we can't comprehend and precisely co relate particular karma and particular result , therefore, the result is termed as output of " destiny " . We also don't recall all of our karmas. A person should always be certain that he deserved the result. Belief in destiny then acts as pain reliever. Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj had extensively and with amazing clarity explained the Karma theory. I have never come across a better explanation on this otherwise very deep subject. Says Lord Krishna even in Gita - Gahana Karmano gatih ( Very deep is the theory of karma) ! Sadhaks are welcome to ask any questions on the subject. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B -------------------------- Restless Ego … Osccillations between Destiny and Free Will There are three variables on both sides of an action – subject and environment (objects) – known, knowable and unknowable. The known is what I insist to have a knowledge upon with my sensory approval. The knowable is the one which is still within my sensory spectrum that I have not cared to or equipped to acknowledge. The unknowable is the one that can never be perceived within my sensory spectrum that I possess or I am blessed with. Some acknowledge the futility of chasing an unknowable for it is not explorable by definition and hence is not manipulatable for one's benefits. Their opinion is, some thing that is of no benefit to me need not be acknowledged … after all, what is the use?! They obviously have to advocate that the life is run by free will. Such people are driven by desires as all their actions and beliefs hover around their desires. Their very individual identity is the set of their desires. Others acknowledge the futility of praising the known for many reasons (1) all the miseries are brought in through these knowns – ignorance is bliss – knowledge brings anticipation and fear; (2) these knowns elude us by their continuously changing attributes; and (3) after all, these knowns are useless because we are still unhappy in-spite of knowing them, in-spite of how many knowns are known; (4) No known can ever change or stop what is going to happen; (5) no known can bring us whatever we want … They obviously have to advocate that the life is run by destiny – the unknowns, The Unknowable. Such people are driven by fears as all their actions and beliefs hover around their fears. Their very individual identity is the set of their fears. To take shelter from their own fears they start believing that some unknown force protects them. We often mix up a set of known factors to define what we are and what our environment is and insist that the universe is that. One who insists that the world is governed by ONLY KNOWNS and refuse to care about the unknowns (for a good reason, anyway they are unknown and what can I do with them?!) will tend to insist that life is made of Free Will. It all depends on who I think I am. If I can define whatever I am, all such definitions depend on so many experiences I have accumulated from the environment over my life. Then where is the free will since the very definition of my very identity is nothing but a bunch of environmental stimuli? We often get carried away by the fears of uncertainties in life and declare in frustration that we are just pawns in the hands of life. One who insists that the unknowns overwhelm the knowns in all respects jump to conclude that the unknowns run the show and refuse to respect the knowns. One who insists that the world is governed by ONLY UNKNOWNS and refuses to respect the knowns (for a good reason, what great things could I achieve with them anyway?!) will tend to insist that life is made of Destiny. It all depends on who I think I am. For every expression that I am, I have to act up. I become what I am only through my free will. If I can define whatever I am, all such definitions depend on so many perceptions created within my cognition. Though they seem to have been triggered by the environmental stimuli through the senses, they are received and generated uniquely by the individual – no two individual can have identical perception and experience in any event with identical characteristics. After all, the " stimuli " are generated internally based on my personality to serve my desires. It is my desire that brings in the stimuli; it is me who interpret these stimuli to make sense out of them; and it is me who manipulate them and enjoy the result. I know what I am and what I do – I am my motifs and acceptances and I do what I want and what I accept. Then where is the destiny dictating me what I am and what to do when the very definition of my identity is my motifs and acceptances? Respects Naga Narayana. To be contd. --------------------------- I do not know who sends me the messages, thanks to who-so- ever is sending it. I too have a little query on one of the shloka of my interest.... it states " Annat Bhavanti bhootani, Parjanyaat Anna Sambhava Yadnyaat Bhavati parjanyaah, Yadnya Karma Samarabhet " While the first line is easily understood, How to understand the 2nd line? ..... can one verify .... by experimentation ....Yadnyaat Bhavati Parjnyaah ? Has any one tried it? what is the sample size? what is the result? Which type of yadnaah will have to be performed and what would be cost of it? who can perform it? Please let me know Ajit Gokhale ---------------------------- PRIOR POSTING Jai Hanuman A human being comes in this world for fulfulling four desires Jee! 1. Artha (money, wealth, health, ownership of material objects, house, properties, assets, cattle, horses, beauty, virtue, right, power, ability, affluence etc ) 2. Kaam (consumption of eight-fold worldly pleasures Jee, arising from smell, touch, form, taste, sound, and consumption of pleasure arising from respect, praise and peaceful leisure) 3. Dharma (Righteousness, Duty, Truth, being good) and 4. Moksha (Liberation, Freedom from bondage, God Realisation) So there are four desires Jee. As against these four desires - there are two things available to him. 1. Prarabdha (destiny) - At present he has no control over it. 2. Purushartha (Current karmas / deeds - he has independent control over the same) Now out of four desires - first two viz Artha and Kama are directly and exclusively dependent on Prarabdha (Destiny) ONLY.. They are indeed subject matter of fate only Jee! Your present actions have no correlation with the same ! Clear Jee ? Balance two viz Dharma and Moksha are subject matter dependent upon your present actions (Purushartha - present deeds) only. There is no role of destiny here ! Absolutely no role Jee! Since a lot of humanity falls within the ambit of BG 18:32 - What is subject matter of Destiny by religiously following BG 18:32 - we have employed Purushartha there !! What is subject matter of Purushartha, by religiously following BG 18:32, we have employed Destiny there !! That is what Taat Shree (Swamiji) is explaining in the latest Sadhak message by giving example of two patients having disease of eye and stomach !!! Namaste Jee Jee Jee Shashikala ---------------------------- Life is Destiny vs. Life is Free Will Everything is destiny. Even the way you think about, the reason you breath, the incidences that you blink, the purpose you act for, is pre-destined. If you think you did something in certain way, one can always say that that is what you were pre-destined for. Where is the free will here? Everything is free will. If I do not push myself into an act nothing will happen from my side. If anything happens related to me, my presence is the reason for that. I can always change my ways to adapt the way I want. I have always been doing it. Therefore, I am the reason for whatever I am. Every entity is the sole reason for whatever it is. Basically, there are two factors for any action to occur. One is me who wants to participate in an action. The other is a set of environmental factors that seem to govern my actions. One who insists that oneself is the sole responsibility for anything that has happened to him/her would pledge his/her life to protect their belief as the truth. One who insists that the environmental factors govern everything in ones life (they would argue that whatever you think you are wanting was also fed to you from the environment once upon a time, with a good reason) would stake their lives to protect their belief as the truth. Both are basically protecting themselves because they believe that they are their beliefs. One can argue that all free wills are nothing but the inertial residue of the environmental stimuli on the corresponding individuals. At the same time, one can counter the argument that every environmental stimulus is nothing but the free will in its own sense. One can never have a dispute between these two ideologies because they are both correct. Next comes, how can two mutually exclusive opposites can be both correct? Look at the above argument closely. Are they really opposites? They are actually exclusively inclusive of each other in the very argument. Destiny is the Free Will of The Universal Reality. Free will is the destiny every variance is blessed with to execute itself in its variations. Therefore, the destiny is free will and free will is destiny: || Yadeveha tadamutra yadamutra tadanviha || " Here " is free will and " there " is destiny. Whatever is there is here and whatever is here is verily there. They are nothing but the same sprouting as different in our perception in a singular fashion. But, with a closer look, we can observe that they feed each other and they feed on each other for their own sustenance. Just because I cannot visualize my back it does not mean it does not exist. If I turn, my previous front becomes my back. The front, the back, the known, the unknown, the free will, the destiny … and all the relatives that I perceive … they are all just illusions of the restless mind that I have! Respects Naga Narayana --------------------------- Dear Sadaks, You are given the freedom to act. This freedom and action makes cause and effect. Suppose you steal someone money (there is freedom to do so) but your cause is recorded by your Aura and you loose much more in same birth or next birth. Similarly your action such as pooja/meditation is also paid as Karuniya from GOD. So you have the freedom to do anything you in this birth, but at the same time you are destined to undergo something that you have done earlier. So one is in cycle of death and birth. Example: So many saints who were divine and were in permanant contact with GOD and NO interest in living, had to live on this earth until their Karma of previous birth was exhausted. Saint Thyagaraja in south was not interested his life cried for Sri Rama. Sri Rama appeared and gave him the date and time of departure of his soul to liberation. Tukaram was given date to fly to Vaikunt. While ordinary man also lives beyond doctor hope or dies even when doctor has hope. B.Sathyanarayan ---------------------------- i would like to mention - yes just mention two scientific concepts that may be related Geodesic - is a natural path of a particle Gravitation in Einsteinian general relativistic concept is described as a trajectory destined by gravitational field. atul kumthekar ---------------------------- PRIOR POSTING Hari Om It is written in scriptures as rightly stated by you - " kuchh nahin HOTAA " ( nothing " happens " ) not " kuchh nahin " karata " (nothing is " done " ). These are two separate things. One- what we " do " and two- what " happens " . You have control/independence regarding " doing " (karma) but not regarding " happening " (result). Hence a human being has complete independence and control over what he " does " in life time. Your fresh karmas are not pre destined. No step of yours (doing) is pre destined/planned. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ------------------------ What we are undergoing today is the result of our past karmas but what we will undergo in future will be the result of our present karmas. So we do have a choice. Hari Shanker Deo ------------------------ The conecpts of predestination and free will are mutually reconcilable. While God has given us freedom to choose, He knows in advance how we will choose! B.S.Raghavan ------------------------- Shree Hari Ram Ram A couple of very lengthy similiar discussions took place earlier this year. 1) Why disturb God's plans? /message/1307 2) Do we have a choice of actions? /message/1298 Saagarji, either you or any other Sadhak that has time could please help summarize these discussions, as they will be very helpful to the rest of us, for a deeper understanding of topic / responses. From Gita Talk Moderator Ram Ram ------------------------------ GUIDELINES FOR POSTING A RESPONSE: 1. 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Guest guest Posted October 16, 2008 Report Share Posted October 16, 2008 Question 1: Is destiny pre-planned. In Gita, God says, he gives human beings the freedom to act, the choice is man's and he does according to his character or nature(swabhav). If it is true why it has been said " bhaagya se pehle, aur bhaagya se hatkar kuch nahin hotaa " " beyond one's fortune and misfortune, nothing happens " (translation may be incorrect). Is our every step pre-planned (destined) ? Saagar Kadam Question 2: What is Gita's view on destiny? Suresh Goel --------------------------- NEW POSTING Duality and Illusions Free will and destiny are mutually exclusive domains in a Venn Diagram! If one is TRUE, the other is bound to be FALSE!! How can both be correct? No! At their absolute limits, both are exclusively inclusive of each other i.e. they are NOT DIFFERENT, they are the same. The Venn Diagram is the ignorance which perpetually insists for its own approval for all our perceptions to establish itself, to sustain itself, and to breed itself. The ignorance keeps arguing (believing itself to be the knowledge) until it faces itself (as ignorance). This duality occurs due to our partial vision. The two opposites are the illusions created in our mind. I cannot say that they are created by the mind – then they should always serve for mind's benefits! Most often, they serve the opposite!! They are not created by the objects perceived as well. Why do the objects care how I acknowledge them? They can never have a clue regarding the impressions created in my mind! Even if they could, there is no apparent benefit for them from the impressions I carry!! But the illusion persists. The mind chases this illusion in terms of desires desperately since it looses its own cognition without that. At the same time, it is being chased by the same illusion in terms of fears. It can neither outpace the illusion to satisfy its desires completely. Nor can it stop to face the fears to understand them and eradicate them. It runs away from its fears pretending that it is hunting its game to feed upon eventually. Who is the game? And, who is the predator? Ignorance believes that the mind is the predator and desire is the game. Knowledge knows that the mind is the victim of the illusion – the " predator " is the game and the " game " is the predator. The mind's chase is like the chase of a donkey running relentlessly with a stiff long stick tied tight along its back with a carrot dangling in the front and fire on the rear end. One can never judge whether it is running because of the fear of the fire on the rear or for the crave of the carrot in the front. For sure it neither captures its desires, nor does it understand its fears, but remains captive between its fears and desires thanks to its ignorance on its desires (carrot), fears (fire) as well as its tendencies (stick). The donkey never appreciates the strong pact between the carrot and the fire to boost each other right under its nose. The chase continues. It is like a mouse running inside a stagnant spinner wheel … mind never knows why it is running, but it cannot help stop due to inertia constantly fueled by fears and desires. When it is tired, it may go to sleep … but the wheel of tendencies it has built continues to spin as time passes. Every step the mouse jumps on the wheel rim, the wheel collects more momentum to sustain its own motion. The mouse never understands that it is chasing the same thing in terms of its desires that it is running away from in terms of fears. The same desire becomes fear to show itself again and again … the same fear becomes desire to show itself again and again. The game continues. || Manasaivedamaaptavyam neha naanaasti kinchana || How can I ever have absolute desire without any fear or absolute fear without any desire?! Then how can I ever be convinced with the Free Will and Destiny in isolation??!! Then how can I argue for any one of them when my very argument is a mixture of the two???!!! The dilemma continues tormenting one to continue the suffering in life in spite of appreciating the fact that one could be just happy by absolutely being at a pole of appreciation. Therefore, a deeper appreciation of the opposite polarities is required to examine their potential unity. Because, I can reduce and eventually stop oscillating between two notional poles of contradictory interests if I realize that the very existence of the polarities is my imagination, illusion, hallucination ... Unfortunately my only way of expression is through this mind and body … and, have no other means to purge my delusions. || Mrityossa mritum gacchati ya iha naaneva pashyati || I need to appreciate my apparition of stretched and fragmented existence to experience the harmony and unison in the same … if I really want to cut this cycle of ignorance and inertia entertaining the self-tearing polarities. Respects Naga Narayana. To be contd. … ----------------------------- Friends Gita is outcome of sincere , enthusiastic and persistent effort of Arjuna and Bhagwan Krishna. The intimate dialogue continued for 18 chapters and neither gave up saying that it is not in destiny. Gita is all about action and choosing amongst Sattwik, Rajsik and Tamsik,( from verse 2 of chapter 17 to verse 40 of 18th chapter). Having studied and practiced astrology for few years, I am sharing my views about fate/destiny with the hope that it may be useful to some friends. 1)According to me destiny can be changed by anyone to the extent and in proportion to his exercising right of free choice. 2)God's greatest gift to Human being is that he has given them power to choose between good and bad, anger and forgiveness and so on. 3)God has provided 3 things same/equal to every one:- a)Time of 24 hours in a day b)Potential to move up or down to any extent and at any time in any field. c)Right of choice- choosing between a or b If one has not read and understood Gita till now,he can choose to continue to say that it is in his destiny not to study Gita or he can start study of Gita from today.The life will not remain same if one starts reading Gita. Destiny is created every moment by our opting for either'A' or 'B' consciously or unconsciously.You have the power to choose how you utilise your 24 hours. Being aware of God's greatest gift i.e Free Choice and utlising that gift frequently will certainly change course of life. regards and best wishes Ashok Jain --------------------------- Hari Om Mahendraji's query is indeed worth deliberating. First all it is pretty clear from Scriptures that Darwin theory is not correct( that we evolved from animals to humans). That answers many of related questions. Human birth is origin of all other births . Human birth is the first birth of all of us and can be last birth of all of us ( Refer 7:19- words " Bahunaa janmaanante " refer to human birth - last birth). The cycle started, when as per Shruti ( Upnishads), God was alone and He felt like playing. He created humans for His Lila - out of Him only. He created Shree Jee also. While Shree Jee never wavered her concentration from God, always remained with Him, the others started considering the toys/apparatus of play as me/mine( like body/mind/intellect/world ) and there started chain of karma and karma phal (action/reaction). The game being played is " HIDE and SEEK " . ( Irrespective of caste,creed, country - every child across the globe plays this game in the beginning invariably- direct experience ). In this eternal play God is hidden and we have to search Him. Now ask questions - Mahendraji and other sadhaks. Indeed this the topic of all topics. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ------------------------------ --------------------------- PRIOR POSTING Shree Hari Ram Ram Brother Kadam ! In Shri Gitaji, Paramatma Himself has said (Believe it to be the final words) - To perform actions, you have the rights (which you are capable of doing) and regarding the fruit (i.e. the outcome), it is in My hands (not in yours) - Gita 2:47. Now that which will happen (i.e. Destiny), in the meaning of this word, whatever actions you perform, it is definite that at that very moment the fruit is inevitably determined. Now whatever actions you desire, you do. Your give and take is with the actions, not with Paramatma. Therefore with great care and understanding perform actions. Ram Ram Sarvottam Bhaiyyaa Kadam ! Shree Gitaji mein swayam Paramatama ne kaha diyaa (uskiko antim maan lo). Karma karnaa toh tere adhikaar mein hai (jo tu ker saktaa hai) aur karma kaa phal (kyaa hogaa) mere haath mein hai (tere haath mein nahin). Gita 2:47. Ab honi (jisse angreji mein Destiny kaha rahe hai) is arth mein nischit (poorva nirdhaarit) hai ki jis shun jo bhi karma hogaa, usi kshan uskaa phal bhi nischit ho jaayegaa. Ab aap jo karma chaahe wah kare, Karma se Paramatmaa ka nahin, aapkaa lena-dena hua, sauch –samajhker kijiye. Ram Ram Sarvottam ------------------------- This is the most interesting topic ever to be posted here and the various explanations are somewhat interesting too. Assuming we take this birth to fulfil our karmic past there obviously must have been an origin. If we have evolved from the various species to this human birth the first one must have been sin-free or rather the freshest of the fresh human race member. Along the line we may have commited various sins and or good deeds and subsequently re-born many a times to enjoy the fruits or to pay back until we blend with the Lord. The question is how is the first ever birth of the human form determined? Were we originally good souls in heaven's bode with the Lord and banished to this earth as human beings for some sins committed there? Or were we evolved from the various living species as in Darwin's theory, and if that be the case, from which point (animals/birds/plants etc.) do we take this human birth?.Since animals do not commit sins how are they involved in the cycle going upwards towards the human race? Is there anything to this effect in the Gita? I am sincerely hoping that readers who are well versed with the Gita could throw some light towards these nagging questions. Thank you very much. Mahendra Raj ------------------------------- " Free will and destiny are like two wheels of a cart running together to make this life happen. " There is a danger in the perpetual entertainment opposite polarities in one's life … the two opposites perpetually try to corrupt each other bringing themselves to momentary agreement – letting one or the other " win " – in which both take rest and are ever ready to jump for the next conflict. Natural to our ignorant tendencies, we would hang on to each on the wrong side – praising oneself at success and blaming some destiny at failure – to attain such illusory and transitory gratification. In our perception, they are distinctly different from each other – rather alien to each other. Then how can they ever cooperate to make this balance occur? Obviously, at any conflict, they both claim their stakes to own the positive side of all the events since they are identified with their positivity in the first place – one who is identified with positivity can never accept any suggestion of negativity on oneself. The ego entertains such debates so that it can jump in to take the altar of superiority to judge the two. The ego jumps to the judgment that promotes its own positivity – tendencies. It claims itself to be the reason for what it likes; and blames the destiny for what it does not like. Either side it is clueless. It thinks it itself is the free will – but when was it free and has it ever exercised its freedom?! It blames destiny – but what is it and has the ego ever faced it to know what it is?! A clever ego actually blames the destiny sugarcoated with apparent praise – don't be fooled by that – if one does not hesitate to take the credit for " good " , he/she is not submitting to destiny even though he/she believes to be surrendering to destiny in certain situations of desperation. This tussle between praising and blaming will strengthen its ignorance further for stronger arguments in the next event. Stronger the arguments, bitter the fight, more diverge the sense of likes and dislikes, more intense the feelings in one's experience, more vehement the debating parties are, … thicker and wider the ignorance one is eclipsed with. Two wheels are not synchronized without an axle … the above argument lacks this third element – the element of unification unifying the two opposites to one. Our lives are mixtures of both polarities in different intensities and proportions. One who seeks the conflicts between the polarities (Preya) in every event is bound to be consumed by the very conflict as explained above. However, one who sees the unity in the apparent conflict (Shreya) in every event is bound to be with the unity, The Bliss. Preya's focus is always on one of the wheels constantly drifting from one to another. Shreya's focus is always on the balance of the wheels and therefore has a chance to shift the focus to the axle. The Preya expands these wheels – sometimes unevenly to our torture – increasing the intensity of our conflicting tendencies by increasing their inertia. Shreya shrinks these wheels evenly in a balanced way to maintain our balance as well as to reduce our emotional intensity by reducing the inertia of our tendencies. Preya runs the two wheels in opposite directions promoting one and demoting the other ... relegating one while delegating the other. Preya instigates internal racism by letting one wheel (favored by the ego) to outpace the other letting the system swirl in its self-generated whirlpool. Shreya balances the wheel motion to be in equilibrium to start with, reduces their pace gradually, and reduces the wheels leading the system to become one with the axle eventually. At limits both theories are right … || Yadeveha tadamutra yadamutra tadanviha || If I can absolutely establish myself in what I think, every pole is absolute as such! If I stick to pure Free Will, I have no room for miseries – after all, I am the reason for everything. If I stick to pure Destiny, I again have no room for miseries – after all THAT is the reason for everything. Since the result is the same – I cannot be miserable – both are correct … of course, ONLY IF I can stick to either one absolutely. If I can't, … || Mrityossa mritumaapnoti ya iha naaneva pashyati || One who entertains the self-conflicting and self-contradicting polarities in one's notions is bound to be chased by the fear of negative being pulled by the desire of positive … torn apart in miseries. Respects Naga Narayana. To be contd. … --------------------------- PRIOR POSTING Hari Om In fact as per Yoga Vaashishtha , there is no element as " destiny " or " fate " existing. All are results of deeds only. There is a gap of time between your actions (karmas) and reactions ( results). Since we can't comprehend and precisely co relate particular karma and particular result , therefore, the result is termed as output of " destiny " . We also don't recall all of our karmas. A person should always be certain that he deserved the result. Belief in destiny then acts as pain reliever. Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj had extensively and with amazing clarity explained the Karma theory. I have never come across a better explanation on this otherwise very deep subject. Says Lord Krishna even in Gita - Gahana Karmano gatih ( Very deep is the theory of karma) ! Sadhaks are welcome to ask any questions on the subject. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B -------------------------- Restless Ego … Osccillations between Destiny and Free Will There are three variables on both sides of an action – subject and environment (objects) – known, knowable and unknowable. The known is what I insist to have a knowledge upon with my sensory approval. The knowable is the one which is still within my sensory spectrum that I have not cared to or equipped to acknowledge. The unknowable is the one that can never be perceived within my sensory spectrum that I possess or I am blessed with. Some acknowledge the futility of chasing an unknowable for it is not explorable by definition and hence is not manipulatable for one's benefits. Their opinion is, some thing that is of no benefit to me need not be acknowledged … after all, what is the use?! They obviously have to advocate that the life is run by free will. Such people are driven by desires as all their actions and beliefs hover around their desires. Their very individual identity is the set of their desires. Others acknowledge the futility of praising the known for many reasons (1) all the miseries are brought in through these knowns – ignorance is bliss – knowledge brings anticipation and fear; (2) these knowns elude us by their continuously changing attributes; and (3) after all, these knowns are useless because we are still unhappy in-spite of knowing them, in-spite of how many knowns are known; (4) No known can ever change or stop what is going to happen; (5) no known can bring us whatever we want … They obviously have to advocate that the life is run by destiny – the unknowns, The Unknowable. Such people are driven by fears as all their actions and beliefs hover around their fears. Their very individual identity is the set of their fears. To take shelter from their own fears they start believing that some unknown force protects them. We often mix up a set of known factors to define what we are and what our environment is and insist that the universe is that. One who insists that the world is governed by ONLY KNOWNS and refuse to care about the unknowns (for a good reason, anyway they are unknown and what can I do with them?!) will tend to insist that life is made of Free Will. It all depends on who I think I am. If I can define whatever I am, all such definitions depend on so many experiences I have accumulated from the environment over my life. Then where is the free will since the very definition of my very identity is nothing but a bunch of environmental stimuli? We often get carried away by the fears of uncertainties in life and declare in frustration that we are just pawns in the hands of life. One who insists that the unknowns overwhelm the knowns in all respects jump to conclude that the unknowns run the show and refuse to respect the knowns. One who insists that the world is governed by ONLY UNKNOWNS and refuses to respect the knowns (for a good reason, what great things could I achieve with them anyway?!) will tend to insist that life is made of Destiny. It all depends on who I think I am. For every expression that I am, I have to act up. I become what I am only through my free will. If I can define whatever I am, all such definitions depend on so many perceptions created within my cognition. Though they seem to have been triggered by the environmental stimuli through the senses, they are received and generated uniquely by the individual – no two individual can have identical perception and experience in any event with identical characteristics. After all, the " stimuli " are generated internally based on my personality to serve my desires. It is my desire that brings in the stimuli; it is me who interpret these stimuli to make sense out of them; and it is me who manipulate them and enjoy the result. I know what I am and what I do – I am my motifs and acceptances and I do what I want and what I accept. Then where is the destiny dictating me what I am and what to do when the very definition of my identity is my motifs and acceptances? Respects Naga Narayana. To be contd. --------------------------- I do not know who sends me the messages, thanks to who-so- ever is sending it. I too have a little query on one of the shloka of my interest.... it states " Annat Bhavanti bhootani, Parjanyaat Anna Sambhava Yadnyaat Bhavati parjanyaah, Yadnya Karma Samarabhet " While the first line is easily understood, How to understand the 2nd line? ..... can one verify .... by experimentation ....Yadnyaat Bhavati Parjnyaah ? Has any one tried it? what is the sample size? what is the result? Which type of yadnaah will have to be performed and what would be cost of it? who can perform it? Please let me know Ajit Gokhale ---------------------------- PRIOR POSTING Jai Hanuman A human being comes in this world for fulfulling four desires Jee! 1. Artha (money, wealth, health, ownership of material objects, house, properties, assets, cattle, horses, beauty, virtue, right, power, ability, affluence etc ) 2. Kaam (consumption of eight-fold worldly pleasures Jee, arising from smell, touch, form, taste, sound, and consumption of pleasure arising from respect, praise and peaceful leisure) 3. Dharma (Righteousness, Duty, Truth, being good) and 4. Moksha (Liberation, Freedom from bondage, God Realisation) So there are four desires Jee. As against these four desires - there are two things available to him. 1. Prarabdha (destiny) - At present he has no control over it. 2. Purushartha (Current karmas / deeds - he has independent control over the same) Now out of four desires - first two viz Artha and Kama are directly and exclusively dependent on Prarabdha (Destiny) ONLY.. They are indeed subject matter of fate only Jee! Your present actions have no correlation with the same ! Clear Jee ? Balance two viz Dharma and Moksha are subject matter dependent upon your present actions (Purushartha - present deeds) only. There is no role of destiny here ! Absolutely no role Jee! Since a lot of humanity falls within the ambit of BG 18:32 - What is subject matter of Destiny by religiously following BG 18:32 - we have employed Purushartha there !! What is subject matter of Purushartha, by religiously following BG 18:32, we have employed Destiny there !! That is what Taat Shree (Swamiji) is explaining in the latest Sadhak message by giving example of two patients having disease of eye and stomach !!! Namaste Jee Jee Jee Shashikala ---------------------------- Life is Destiny vs. Life is Free Will Everything is destiny. Even the way you think about, the reason you breath, the incidences that you blink, the purpose you act for, is pre-destined. If you think you did something in certain way, one can always say that that is what you were pre-destined for. Where is the free will here? Everything is free will. If I do not push myself into an act nothing will happen from my side. If anything happens related to me, my presence is the reason for that. I can always change my ways to adapt the way I want. I have always been doing it. Therefore, I am the reason for whatever I am. Every entity is the sole reason for whatever it is. Basically, there are two factors for any action to occur. One is me who wants to participate in an action. The other is a set of environmental factors that seem to govern my actions. One who insists that oneself is the sole responsibility for anything that has happened to him/her would pledge his/her life to protect their belief as the truth. One who insists that the environmental factors govern everything in ones life (they would argue that whatever you think you are wanting was also fed to you from the environment once upon a time, with a good reason) would stake their lives to protect their belief as the truth. Both are basically protecting themselves because they believe that they are their beliefs. One can argue that all free wills are nothing but the inertial residue of the environmental stimuli on the corresponding individuals. At the same time, one can counter the argument that every environmental stimulus is nothing but the free will in its own sense. One can never have a dispute between these two ideologies because they are both correct. Next comes, how can two mutually exclusive opposites can be both correct? Look at the above argument closely. Are they really opposites? They are actually exclusively inclusive of each other in the very argument. Destiny is the Free Will of The Universal Reality. Free will is the destiny every variance is blessed with to execute itself in its variations. Therefore, the destiny is free will and free will is destiny: || Yadeveha tadamutra yadamutra tadanviha || " Here " is free will and " there " is destiny. Whatever is there is here and whatever is here is verily there. They are nothing but the same sprouting as different in our perception in a singular fashion. But, with a closer look, we can observe that they feed each other and they feed on each other for their own sustenance. Just because I cannot visualize my back it does not mean it does not exist. If I turn, my previous front becomes my back. The front, the back, the known, the unknown, the free will, the destiny … and all the relatives that I perceive … they are all just illusions of the restless mind that I have! Respects Naga Narayana --------------------------- Dear Sadaks, You are given the freedom to act. This freedom and action makes cause and effect. Suppose you steal someone money (there is freedom to do so) but your cause is recorded by your Aura and you loose much more in same birth or next birth. Similarly your action such as pooja/meditation is also paid as Karuniya from GOD. So you have the freedom to do anything you in this birth, but at the same time you are destined to undergo something that you have done earlier. So one is in cycle of death and birth. Example: So many saints who were divine and were in permanant contact with GOD and NO interest in living, had to live on this earth until their Karma of previous birth was exhausted. Saint Thyagaraja in south was not interested his life cried for Sri Rama. Sri Rama appeared and gave him the date and time of departure of his soul to liberation. Tukaram was given date to fly to Vaikunt. While ordinary man also lives beyond doctor hope or dies even when doctor has hope. B.Sathyanarayan ---------------------------- i would like to mention - yes just mention two scientific concepts that may be related Geodesic - is a natural path of a particle Gravitation in Einsteinian general relativistic concept is described as a trajectory destined by gravitational field. atul kumthekar ---------------------------- PRIOR POSTING Hari Om It is written in scriptures as rightly stated by you - " kuchh nahin HOTAA " ( nothing " happens " ) not " kuchh nahin " karata " (nothing is " done " ). These are two separate things. One- what we " do " and two- what " happens " . You have control/independence regarding " doing " (karma) but not regarding " happening " (result). Hence a human being has complete independence and control over what he " does " in life time. Your fresh karmas are not pre destined. No step of yours (doing) is pre destined/planned. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ------------------------ What we are undergoing today is the result of our past karmas but what we will undergo in future will be the result of our present karmas. So we do have a choice. Hari Shanker Deo ------------------------ The conecpts of predestination and free will are mutually reconcilable. While God has given us freedom to choose, He knows in advance how we will choose! B.S.Raghavan ------------------------- Shree Hari Ram Ram A couple of very lengthy similiar discussions took place earlier this year. 1) Why disturb God's plans? /message/1307 2) Do we have a choice of actions? /message/1298 Saagarji, either you or any other Sadhak that has time could please help summarize these discussions, as they will be very helpful to the rest of us, for a deeper understanding of topic / responses. From Gita Talk Moderator Ram Ram ------------------------------ GUIDELINES FOR POSTING A RESPONSE: 1. 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Guest guest Posted October 31, 2008 Report Share Posted October 31, 2008 Shree Hari Ram Ram A couple of extra postings today, due to administration Gita Talk Moderators -------------------------------- Question 1: Is destiny pre-planned. In Gita, God says, he gives human beings the freedom to act, the choice is man's and he does according to his character or nature(swabhav). If it is true why it has been said " bhaagya se pehle, aur bhaagya se hatkar kuch nahin hotaa " " beyond one's fortune and misfortune, nothing happens " (translation may be incorrect). Is our every step pre-planned (destined) ? Saagar Kadam Question 2: What is Gita's view on destiny? Suresh Goel --------------------------- NEW POSTING Unison in Free Will and Destiny (conclusion) The Venn Diagram is the ignorance that keeps our notions discrete instigating existential fracture in our otherwise integral presence. Did all the elements and forces of the universe resonated for the generation of an individual body-mind cluster? Or, did it just happened? I wish that the first one was true. But unfortunately I do not receive such grand reception in my environment. I suffer. Since I cannot support the singular instance that I am, I try to generalize that there should be a purpose – may be greater – for all this creation wishing beneath that one day I may achieve my end – the purpose of this creation is me. Again I fail and remain disappointed. But, seasoned fool that I am, I pretend as if I have never been proved wrong in my life. Shouldn't I question this idiocy of mine – the myth of my destiny? Does any indvidual have any authority over everything? Anything at all? At least itself? Free will is not an authority to do something or to say something or to perceive something or to experience something as any one of these are constrained in themselves as perceived by an individual. As soon as I say " I do " , I am attached by the very doing imbibing the very constraints within which the doing is established. Therefore, a statement like " I have free will since I can do something " is self- contradictory in itself. No one can " have " free will since everything becomes constrained as soon as they are held by something. Also, no one can ever do anything with free will since doing involves many circumstantial elements other than the doer himself posing constraints on the doer to result in a finite perception of doing. Again, anything dependent on the doing can not be free will. Shouldn't I question this folly of mine – the allegory of my free will? Na kartritvam na karmaani lokasya srijati prabhuh | Na karamphalasamyogam svabhaavastu pravartate || Whether nature is created or just present, every particle, atom, quark, photon, pulse is just present as is in spite of the apparently perpetual cosmic re-alignement, re-orientation and re- association amongst them. Really speaking, nothing specific is kept in mind in this creation … it just so happened that a universe, a galaxy, a stellar system, a planetary system, the planet earth and its resources, earthly life, humans, etc. took an appearance. Neither a particular action was kept in mind in this creation. It just so happened the matter particles and energy packets dwell in each other as they appear in any form as they become. Nor any specific purpose is behind this creation. It just so happens the matter-energy conjugation continues to churn out variance amongst themselves. Is the cuase-effect relation pre-conceived by nature? Obviously no! The fire just burns. It does not matter whether the fuel in my car or in my kitchen or the stack wood or this body or the forest or the whole universe … it just burns. That is its nature. Everything – I may call it variantly as cause, action, effect, etc. – is just what it is. That is nature. Naadatte kasyachitpaapam na chaiva sukritam vibhuh | Agnyaanenaavritam gnyaanam tena muhyanti jantavah || There is nothing right or wrong in anything – free will or destiny or in any other seemingly opposite facts and factors that we nurture in our perception – as far as one observes the nature as is … The nature has not created anything with anything in mind. Everything is built from the same matter and energy released at once as they are with a built-in knowledge of presence of each other in each other: || Prajaakaamo vai prajaapatih tapastaptvaa mithunamutpaadayate | Rayim cha praanam chetyetou me bahudhaa prajaah karishyata iti || Such that the matter, energy and knowledge would remain in unison as such: || Praane shareeram pratishthitam | Shareere praanah pratishthitah | Tadetadannamanne pratishthitam || Then, how can there be opposites amongst any? Then how can destiny and free will be opposite? If there are no opposites, how can there be any threat for anything?? If there is no alienation between anything how can I ever desire anything??? When there are no opposites, no fears and no desires at all, why should I be worried?! What can I be worried about?! No polarities … no exclusions … no interferences … no opposites … no Venn diagram … no ignorance … no worries … everything is just THAT which is both free will as well as destiny as well as everything else. Respects. Naga Narayana --------------------------- PRIOR POSTING Duality and Illusions Free will and destiny are mutually exclusive domains in a Venn Diagram! If one is TRUE, the other is bound to be FALSE!! How can both be correct? No! At their absolute limits, both are exclusively inclusive of each other i.e. they are NOT DIFFERENT, they are the same. The Venn Diagram is the ignorance which perpetually insists for its own approval for all our perceptions to establish itself, to sustain itself, and to breed itself. The ignorance keeps arguing (believing itself to be the knowledge) until it faces itself (as ignorance). This duality occurs due to our partial vision. The two opposites are the illusions created in our mind. I cannot say that they are created by the mind – then they should always serve for mind's benefits! Most often, they serve the opposite!! They are not created by the objects perceived as well. Why do the objects care how I acknowledge them? They can never have a clue regarding the impressions created in my mind! Even if they could, there is no apparent benefit for them from the impressions I carry!! But the illusion persists. The mind chases this illusion in terms of desires desperately since it looses its own cognition without that. At the same time, it is being chased by the same illusion in terms of fears. It can neither outpace the illusion to satisfy its desires completely. Nor can it stop to face the fears to understand them and eradicate them. It runs away from its fears pretending that it is hunting its game to feed upon eventually. Who is the game? And, who is the predator? Ignorance believes that the mind is the predator and desire is the game. Knowledge knows that the mind is the victim of the illusion – the " predator " is the game and the " game " is the predator. The mind's chase is like the chase of a donkey running relentlessly with a stiff long stick tied tight along its back with a carrot dangling in the front and fire on the rear end. One can never judge whether it is running because of the fear of the fire on the rear or for the crave of the carrot in the front. For sure it neither captures its desires, nor does it understand its fears, but remains captive between its fears and desires thanks to its ignorance on its desires (carrot), fears (fire) as well as its tendencies (stick). The donkey never appreciates the strong pact between the carrot and the fire to boost each other right under its nose. The chase continues. It is like a mouse running inside a stagnant spinner wheel … mind never knows why it is running, but it cannot help stop due to inertia constantly fueled by fears and desires. When it is tired, it may go to sleep … but the wheel of tendencies it has built continues to spin as time passes. Every step the mouse jumps on the wheel rim, the wheel collects more momentum to sustain its own motion. The mouse never understands that it is chasing the same thing in terms of its desires that it is running away from in terms of fears. The same desire becomes fear to show itself again and again … the same fear becomes desire to show itself again and again. The game continues. || Manasaivedamaaptavyam neha naanaasti kinchana || How can I ever have absolute desire without any fear or absolute fear without any desire?! Then how can I ever be convinced with the Free Will and Destiny in isolation??!! Then how can I argue for any one of them when my very argument is a mixture of the two???!!! The dilemma continues tormenting one to continue the suffering in life in spite of appreciating the fact that one could be just happy by absolutely being at a pole of appreciation. Therefore, a deeper appreciation of the opposite polarities is required to examine their potential unity. Because, I can reduce and eventually stop oscillating between two notional poles of contradictory interests if I realize that the very existence of the polarities is my imagination, illusion, hallucination ... Unfortunately my only way of expression is through this mind and body … and, have no other means to purge my delusions. || Mrityossa mritum gacchati ya iha naaneva pashyati || I need to appreciate my apparition of stretched and fragmented existence to experience the harmony and unison in the same … if I really want to cut this cycle of ignorance and inertia entertaining the self-tearing polarities. Respects Naga Narayana. To be contd. … ----------------------------- Friends Gita is outcome of sincere , enthusiastic and persistent effort of Arjuna and Bhagwan Krishna. The intimate dialogue continued for 18 chapters and neither gave up saying that it is not in destiny. Gita is all about action and choosing amongst Sattwik, Rajsik and Tamsik,( from verse 2 of chapter 17 to verse 40 of 18th chapter). Having studied and practiced astrology for few years, I am sharing my views about fate/destiny with the hope that it may be useful to some friends. 1)According to me destiny can be changed by anyone to the extent and in proportion to his exercising right of free choice. 2)God's greatest gift to Human being is that he has given them power to choose between good and bad, anger and forgiveness and so on. 3)God has provided 3 things same/equal to every one:- a)Time of 24 hours in a day b)Potential to move up or down to any extent and at any time in any field. c)Right of choice- choosing between a or b If one has not read and understood Gita till now,he can choose to continue to say that it is in his destiny not to study Gita or he can start study of Gita from today.The life will not remain same if one starts reading Gita. Destiny is created every moment by our opting for either'A' or 'B' consciously or unconsciously.You have the power to choose how you utilise your 24 hours. Being aware of God's greatest gift i.e Free Choice and utlising that gift frequently will certainly change course of life. regards and best wishes Ashok Jain --------------------------- Hari Om Mahendraji's query is indeed worth deliberating. First all it is pretty clear from Scriptures that Darwin theory is not correct( that we evolved from animals to humans). That answers many of related questions. Human birth is origin of all other births . Human birth is the first birth of all of us and can be last birth of all of us ( Refer 7:19- words " Bahunaa janmaanante " refer to human birth - last birth). The cycle started, when as per Shruti ( Upnishads), God was alone and He felt like playing. He created humans for His Lila - out of Him only. He created Shree Jee also. While Shree Jee never wavered her concentration from God, always remained with Him, the others started considering the toys/apparatus of play as me/mine( like body/mind/intellect/world ) and there started chain of karma and karma phal (action/reaction). The game being played is " HIDE and SEEK " . ( Irrespective of caste,creed, country - every child across the globe plays this game in the beginning invariably- direct experience ). In this eternal play God is hidden and we have to search Him. Now ask questions - Mahendraji and other sadhaks. Indeed this the topic of all topics. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ------------------------------ --------------------------- PRIOR POSTING Shree Hari Ram Ram Brother Kadam ! In Shri Gitaji, Paramatma Himself has said (Believe it to be the final words) - To perform actions, you have the rights (which you are capable of doing) and regarding the fruit (i.e. the outcome), it is in My hands (not in yours) - Gita 2:47. Now that which will happen (i.e. Destiny), in the meaning of this word, whatever actions you perform, it is definite that at that very moment the fruit is inevitably determined. Now whatever actions you desire, you do. Your give and take is with the actions, not with Paramatma. Therefore with great care and understanding perform actions. Ram Ram Sarvottam Bhaiyyaa Kadam ! Shree Gitaji mein swayam Paramatama ne kaha diyaa (uskiko antim maan lo). Karma karnaa toh tere adhikaar mein hai (jo tu ker saktaa hai) aur karma kaa phal (kyaa hogaa) mere haath mein hai (tere haath mein nahin). Gita 2:47. Ab honi (jisse angreji mein Destiny kaha rahe hai) is arth mein nischit (poorva nirdhaarit) hai ki jis shun jo bhi karma hogaa, usi kshan uskaa phal bhi nischit ho jaayegaa. Ab aap jo karma chaahe wah kare, Karma se Paramatmaa ka nahin, aapkaa lena-dena hua, sauch –samajhker kijiye. Ram Ram Sarvottam ------------------------- This is the most interesting topic ever to be posted here and the various explanations are somewhat interesting too. Assuming we take this birth to fulfil our karmic past there obviously must have been an origin. If we have evolved from the various species to this human birth the first one must have been sin-free or rather the freshest of the fresh human race member. Along the line we may have commited various sins and or good deeds and subsequently re-born many a times to enjoy the fruits or to pay back until we blend with the Lord. The question is how is the first ever birth of the human form determined? Were we originally good souls in heaven's bode with the Lord and banished to this earth as human beings for some sins committed there? Or were we evolved from the various living species as in Darwin's theory, and if that be the case, from which point (animals/birds/plants etc.) do we take this human birth?.Since animals do not commit sins how are they involved in the cycle going upwards towards the human race? Is there anything to this effect in the Gita? I am sincerely hoping that readers who are well versed with the Gita could throw some light towards these nagging questions. Thank you very much. Mahendra Raj ------------------------------- " Free will and destiny are like two wheels of a cart running together to make this life happen. " There is a danger in the perpetual entertainment opposite polarities in one's life … the two opposites perpetually try to corrupt each other bringing themselves to momentary agreement – letting one or the other " win " – in which both take rest and are ever ready to jump for the next conflict. Natural to our ignorant tendencies, we would hang on to each on the wrong side – praising oneself at success and blaming some destiny at failure – to attain such illusory and transitory gratification. In our perception, they are distinctly different from each other – rather alien to each other. Then how can they ever cooperate to make this balance occur? Obviously, at any conflict, they both claim their stakes to own the positive side of all the events since they are identified with their positivity in the first place – one who is identified with positivity can never accept any suggestion of negativity on oneself. The ego entertains such debates so that it can jump in to take the altar of superiority to judge the two. The ego jumps to the judgment that promotes its own positivity – tendencies. It claims itself to be the reason for what it likes; and blames the destiny for what it does not like. Either side it is clueless. It thinks it itself is the free will – but when was it free and has it ever exercised its freedom?! It blames destiny – but what is it and has the ego ever faced it to know what it is?! A clever ego actually blames the destiny sugarcoated with apparent praise – don't be fooled by that – if one does not hesitate to take the credit for " good " , he/she is not submitting to destiny even though he/she believes to be surrendering to destiny in certain situations of desperation. This tussle between praising and blaming will strengthen its ignorance further for stronger arguments in the next event. Stronger the arguments, bitter the fight, more diverge the sense of likes and dislikes, more intense the feelings in one's experience, more vehement the debating parties are, … thicker and wider the ignorance one is eclipsed with. Two wheels are not synchronized without an axle … the above argument lacks this third element – the element of unification unifying the two opposites to one. Our lives are mixtures of both polarities in different intensities and proportions. One who seeks the conflicts between the polarities (Preya) in every event is bound to be consumed by the very conflict as explained above. However, one who sees the unity in the apparent conflict (Shreya) in every event is bound to be with the unity, The Bliss. Preya's focus is always on one of the wheels constantly drifting from one to another. Shreya's focus is always on the balance of the wheels and therefore has a chance to shift the focus to the axle. The Preya expands these wheels – sometimes unevenly to our torture – increasing the intensity of our conflicting tendencies by increasing their inertia. Shreya shrinks these wheels evenly in a balanced way to maintain our balance as well as to reduce our emotional intensity by reducing the inertia of our tendencies. Preya runs the two wheels in opposite directions promoting one and demoting the other ... relegating one while delegating the other. Preya instigates internal racism by letting one wheel (favored by the ego) to outpace the other letting the system swirl in its self-generated whirlpool. Shreya balances the wheel motion to be in equilibrium to start with, reduces their pace gradually, and reduces the wheels leading the system to become one with the axle eventually. At limits both theories are right … || Yadeveha tadamutra yadamutra tadanviha || If I can absolutely establish myself in what I think, every pole is absolute as such! If I stick to pure Free Will, I have no room for miseries – after all, I am the reason for everything. If I stick to pure Destiny, I again have no room for miseries – after all THAT is the reason for everything. Since the result is the same – I cannot be miserable – both are correct … of course, ONLY IF I can stick to either one absolutely. If I can't, … || Mrityossa mritumaapnoti ya iha naaneva pashyati || One who entertains the self-conflicting and self-contradicting polarities in one's notions is bound to be chased by the fear of negative being pulled by the desire of positive … torn apart in miseries. Respects Naga Narayana. To be contd. … --------------------------- PRIOR POSTING Hari Om In fact as per Yoga Vaashishtha , there is no element as " destiny " or " fate " existing. All are results of deeds only. There is a gap of time between your actions (karmas) and reactions ( results). Since we can't comprehend and precisely co relate particular karma and particular result , therefore, the result is termed as output of " destiny " . We also don't recall all of our karmas. A person should always be certain that he deserved the result. Belief in destiny then acts as pain reliever. Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj had extensively and with amazing clarity explained the Karma theory. I have never come across a better explanation on this otherwise very deep subject. Says Lord Krishna even in Gita - Gahana Karmano gatih ( Very deep is the theory of karma) ! Sadhaks are welcome to ask any questions on the subject. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B -------------------------- Restless Ego … Osccillations between Destiny and Free Will There are three variables on both sides of an action – subject and environment (objects) – known, knowable and unknowable. The known is what I insist to have a knowledge upon with my sensory approval. The knowable is the one which is still within my sensory spectrum that I have not cared to or equipped to acknowledge. The unknowable is the one that can never be perceived within my sensory spectrum that I possess or I am blessed with. Some acknowledge the futility of chasing an unknowable for it is not explorable by definition and hence is not manipulatable for one's benefits. Their opinion is, some thing that is of no benefit to me need not be acknowledged … after all, what is the use?! They obviously have to advocate that the life is run by free will. Such people are driven by desires as all their actions and beliefs hover around their desires. Their very individual identity is the set of their desires. Others acknowledge the futility of praising the known for many reasons (1) all the miseries are brought in through these knowns – ignorance is bliss – knowledge brings anticipation and fear; (2) these knowns elude us by their continuously changing attributes; and (3) after all, these knowns are useless because we are still unhappy in-spite of knowing them, in-spite of how many knowns are known; (4) No known can ever change or stop what is going to happen; (5) no known can bring us whatever we want … They obviously have to advocate that the life is run by destiny – the unknowns, The Unknowable. Such people are driven by fears as all their actions and beliefs hover around their fears. Their very individual identity is the set of their fears. To take shelter from their own fears they start believing that some unknown force protects them. We often mix up a set of known factors to define what we are and what our environment is and insist that the universe is that. One who insists that the world is governed by ONLY KNOWNS and refuse to care about the unknowns (for a good reason, anyway they are unknown and what can I do with them?!) will tend to insist that life is made of Free Will. It all depends on who I think I am. If I can define whatever I am, all such definitions depend on so many experiences I have accumulated from the environment over my life. Then where is the free will since the very definition of my very identity is nothing but a bunch of environmental stimuli? We often get carried away by the fears of uncertainties in life and declare in frustration that we are just pawns in the hands of life. One who insists that the unknowns overwhelm the knowns in all respects jump to conclude that the unknowns run the show and refuse to respect the knowns. One who insists that the world is governed by ONLY UNKNOWNS and refuses to respect the knowns (for a good reason, what great things could I achieve with them anyway?!) will tend to insist that life is made of Destiny. It all depends on who I think I am. For every expression that I am, I have to act up. I become what I am only through my free will. If I can define whatever I am, all such definitions depend on so many perceptions created within my cognition. Though they seem to have been triggered by the environmental stimuli through the senses, they are received and generated uniquely by the individual – no two individual can have identical perception and experience in any event with identical characteristics. After all, the " stimuli " are generated internally based on my personality to serve my desires. It is my desire that brings in the stimuli; it is me who interpret these stimuli to make sense out of them; and it is me who manipulate them and enjoy the result. I know what I am and what I do – I am my motifs and acceptances and I do what I want and what I accept. Then where is the destiny dictating me what I am and what to do when the very definition of my identity is my motifs and acceptances? Respects Naga Narayana. To be contd. --------------------------- I do not know who sends me the messages, thanks to who-so- ever is sending it. I too have a little query on one of the shloka of my interest.... it states " Annat Bhavanti bhootani, Parjanyaat Anna Sambhava Yadnyaat Bhavati parjanyaah, Yadnya Karma Samarabhet " While the first line is easily understood, How to understand the 2nd line? ..... can one verify .... by experimentation ....Yadnyaat Bhavati Parjnyaah ? Has any one tried it? what is the sample size? what is the result? Which type of yadnaah will have to be performed and what would be cost of it? who can perform it? Please let me know Ajit Gokhale ---------------------------- PRIOR POSTING Jai Hanuman A human being comes in this world for fulfulling four desires Jee! 1. Artha (money, wealth, health, ownership of material objects, house, properties, assets, cattle, horses, beauty, virtue, right, power, ability, affluence etc ) 2. Kaam (consumption of eight-fold worldly pleasures Jee, arising from smell, touch, form, taste, sound, and consumption of pleasure arising from respect, praise and peaceful leisure) 3. Dharma (Righteousness, Duty, Truth, being good) and 4. Moksha (Liberation, Freedom from bondage, God Realisation) So there are four desires Jee. As against these four desires - there are two things available to him. 1. Prarabdha (destiny) - At present he has no control over it. 2. Purushartha (Current karmas / deeds - he has independent control over the same) Now out of four desires - first two viz Artha and Kama are directly and exclusively dependent on Prarabdha (Destiny) ONLY.. They are indeed subject matter of fate only Jee! Your present actions have no correlation with the same ! Clear Jee ? Balance two viz Dharma and Moksha are subject matter dependent upon your present actions (Purushartha - present deeds) only. There is no role of destiny here ! Absolutely no role Jee! Since a lot of humanity falls within the ambit of BG 18:32 - What is subject matter of Destiny by religiously following BG 18:32 - we have employed Purushartha there !! What is subject matter of Purushartha, by religiously following BG 18:32, we have employed Destiny there !! That is what Taat Shree (Swamiji) is explaining in the latest Sadhak message by giving example of two patients having disease of eye and stomach !!! Namaste Jee Jee Jee Shashikala ---------------------------- Life is Destiny vs. Life is Free Will Everything is destiny. Even the way you think about, the reason you breath, the incidences that you blink, the purpose you act for, is pre-destined. If you think you did something in certain way, one can always say that that is what you were pre-destined for. Where is the free will here? Everything is free will. If I do not push myself into an act nothing will happen from my side. If anything happens related to me, my presence is the reason for that. I can always change my ways to adapt the way I want. I have always been doing it. Therefore, I am the reason for whatever I am. Every entity is the sole reason for whatever it is. Basically, there are two factors for any action to occur. One is me who wants to participate in an action. The other is a set of environmental factors that seem to govern my actions. One who insists that oneself is the sole responsibility for anything that has happened to him/her would pledge his/her life to protect their belief as the truth. One who insists that the environmental factors govern everything in ones life (they would argue that whatever you think you are wanting was also fed to you from the environment once upon a time, with a good reason) would stake their lives to protect their belief as the truth. Both are basically protecting themselves because they believe that they are their beliefs. One can argue that all free wills are nothing but the inertial residue of the environmental stimuli on the corresponding individuals. At the same time, one can counter the argument that every environmental stimulus is nothing but the free will in its own sense. One can never have a dispute between these two ideologies because they are both correct. Next comes, how can two mutually exclusive opposites can be both correct? Look at the above argument closely. Are they really opposites? They are actually exclusively inclusive of each other in the very argument. Destiny is the Free Will of The Universal Reality. Free will is the destiny every variance is blessed with to execute itself in its variations. Therefore, the destiny is free will and free will is destiny: || Yadeveha tadamutra yadamutra tadanviha || " Here " is free will and " there " is destiny. Whatever is there is here and whatever is here is verily there. They are nothing but the same sprouting as different in our perception in a singular fashion. But, with a closer look, we can observe that they feed each other and they feed on each other for their own sustenance. Just because I cannot visualize my back it does not mean it does not exist. If I turn, my previous front becomes my back. The front, the back, the known, the unknown, the free will, the destiny … and all the relatives that I perceive … they are all just illusions of the restless mind that I have! Respects Naga Narayana --------------------------- Dear Sadaks, You are given the freedom to act. This freedom and action makes cause and effect. Suppose you steal someone money (there is freedom to do so) but your cause is recorded by your Aura and you loose much more in same birth or next birth. Similarly your action such as pooja/meditation is also paid as Karuniya from GOD. So you have the freedom to do anything you in this birth, but at the same time you are destined to undergo something that you have done earlier. So one is in cycle of death and birth. Example: So many saints who were divine and were in permanant contact with GOD and NO interest in living, had to live on this earth until their Karma of previous birth was exhausted. Saint Thyagaraja in south was not interested his life cried for Sri Rama. Sri Rama appeared and gave him the date and time of departure of his soul to liberation. Tukaram was given date to fly to Vaikunt. While ordinary man also lives beyond doctor hope or dies even when doctor has hope. B.Sathyanarayan ---------------------------- i would like to mention - yes just mention two scientific concepts that may be related Geodesic - is a natural path of a particle Gravitation in Einsteinian general relativistic concept is described as a trajectory destined by gravitational field. atul kumthekar ---------------------------- PRIOR POSTING Hari Om It is written in scriptures as rightly stated by you - " kuchh nahin HOTAA " ( nothing " happens " ) not " kuchh nahin " karata " (nothing is " done " ). These are two separate things. One- what we " do " and two- what " happens " . You have control/independence regarding " doing " (karma) but not regarding " happening " (result). Hence a human being has complete independence and control over what he " does " in life time. Your fresh karmas are not pre destined. No step of yours (doing) is pre destined/planned. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ------------------------ What we are undergoing today is the result of our past karmas but what we will undergo in future will be the result of our present karmas. So we do have a choice. Hari Shanker Deo ------------------------ The conecpts of predestination and free will are mutually reconcilable. While God has given us freedom to choose, He knows in advance how we will choose! B.S.Raghavan ------------------------- Shree Hari Ram Ram A couple of very lengthy similiar discussions took place earlier this year. 1) Why disturb God's plans? /message/1307 2) Do we have a choice of actions? /message/1298 Saagarji, either you or any other Sadhak that has time could please help summarize these discussions, as they will be very helpful to the rest of us, for a deeper understanding of topic / responses. From Gita Talk Moderator Ram Ram ------------------------------ GUIDELINES FOR POSTING A RESPONSE: 1. The group is focused on the Holy Gitaji, therefore, responses which further clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will be the area of focus. 2. Making reference of Gitaji shloka is highly encouraged. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures. 3. Please be as concise and to the point, addressing only the subject at hand, thus respecting sadhaka's time. Please limit response to half a book page (3-4 paragraphs). 4. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas 5. Please do not include links to the other sites or other organizations (we do not have the bandwidth to review links to determine if content is appropriate for distribution). 6. Complete reproduction of texts from any book is strongly discouraged, however partial cut - paste is acceptable and references may be made of the book or author(but not links to sites). 7. Kindly do not include personal information - phone #, address etc. 8. Please use appropriate judgement and only address the response to a particular individual, where it makes sense to do so. 9. Due to the large readership, only those responses will be posted which are in line with the general philosophy of taking Shrimad Bhagavad Gita as the reference. 10. Moderator will reject any content that does not meet guidelines. However, for expediency, moderator at his discretion, may modify / delete portions of the posting deemed irrelevant to the core discussion (e.g. personal information, opinions / feelings etc.) 11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use of only Sanskrit words, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit bracketed wherever possible. 12. Any personal remarks over the knowledge of any sadhak or about the stage at which any sadhak is standing in his quest / sadhna / spiritual journey - must not be included in your posting. Also, there should not be any sarcasm towards fellow sadhaks in this spiritual learning and sharing. GITA TALK MODERATOR Ram Ram Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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