Guest guest Posted October 14, 2008 Report Share Posted October 14, 2008 Dear Sakhakji and members Jai Shri Krishna i am reading with interest responses to various Gita related spiritual queries being circulated on the Sadhaka . Lord Krishna was throughout with Karurabas and Panadavas and gave a 18 day Sermons to Arjuna in the Kureshetra.. Even Arjuna had darshan of Virat Swaroop of Lord Krishna, he was in a state of confusion practically till the last stage of Gita's sermon and in Gita 18:64 and Gita 18:72, Lord Krishna not sure of Arjuna's response is seeking his confirmation whether his Agyana (ignorance) and Moha (attachment) are wiped out. That being the case of Arjuna and other characters of Mahabharat, who were otherwise very intelligent, Raj yogis and had the benefit of constant company and advice of Lord Krishna, the question I have is.... QUESTION: I am not very sure how it is possible for any of us in Kaliyuga to have Enlightenment and insight Anubhuti of God by whatsoever name we call him or address him? I will request Sadhakji and other members to guide me in this regards. Thanks and regards G. K. Agrawal ------------------------ GUIDELINES FOR POSTING A RESPONSE: 1. The group is focused on the Holy Gitaji, therefore, responses which further clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will be the area of focus. 2. Making reference of Gitaji shloka is highly encouraged. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures. 3. Please be as concise and to the point, addressing only the subject at hand, thus respecting sadhaka's time. Please limit response to half a book page (3-4 paragraphs). 4. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas 5. Please do not include links to the other sites or other organizations (we do not have the bandwidth to review links to determine if content is appropriate for distribution). 6. Complete reproduction of texts from any book is strongly discouraged, however partial cut - paste is acceptable and references may be made of the book or author(but not links to sites). 7. Kindly do not include personal information - phone #, address etc. 8. Please use appropriate judgement and only address the response to a particular individual, where it makes sense to do so. 9. Due to the large readership, only those responses will be posted which are in line with the general philosophy of taking Shrimad Bhagavad Gita as the reference. 10. Moderator will reject any content that does not meet guidelines. However, for expediency, moderator at his discretion, may modify / delete portions of the posting deemed irrelevant to the core discussion (e.g. personal information, opinions / feelings etc.) 11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use of only Sanskrit words, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit bracketed wherever possible. 12. Any personal remarks over the knowledge of any sadhak or about the stage at which any sadhak is standing in his quest / sadhna / spiritual journey - must not be included in your posting. Also, there should not be any sarcasm towards fellow sadhaks in this spiritual learning and sharing. GITA TALK MODERATOR Ram Ram Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 15, 2008 Report Share Posted October 15, 2008 Dear Sakhakji and members Jai Shri Krishna i am reading with interest responses to various Gita related spiritual queries being circulated on the Sadhaka . Lord Krishna was throughout with Karurabas and Panadavas and gave a 18 day Sermons to Arjuna in the Kureshetra.. Even Arjuna had darshan of Virat Swaroop of Lord Krishna, he was in a state of confusion practically till the last stage of Gita's sermon and in Gita 18:64 and Gita 18:72, Lord Krishna not sure of Arjuna's response is seeking his confirmation whether his Agyana (ignorance) and Moha (attachment) are wiped out. That being the case of Arjuna and other characters of Mahabharat, who were otherwise very intelligent, Raj yogis and had the benefit of constant company and advice of Lord Krishna, the question I have is.... QUESTION: I am not very sure how it is possible for any of us in Kaliyuga to have Enlightenment and insight Anubhuti of God by whatsoever name we call him or address him? I will request Sadhakji and other members to guide me in this regards. Thanks and regards G. K. Agrawal ------------------------ Hari Om Why Agarwalji? What is wrong, Sir, with Kaliyuga? In fact everything is wrong with Kaliyuga- except the fact that in Kaliyuga the God Realisation is very easy. Just establish " mineness " with God and keep doing thereafter Naam Japa - over and all. God becomes absolutely irrational in Kaliyuga. ANDHADHUNDH SARKAAR HAI, TULSI BHAJO NISHANK ! KHEEJE DET HAI PARAM PAD, REEJHE DET HAI LANK !! Absolutely blind is the Goverment of Paramatma ! Hence one should doubtlessly do bhajan ! If God is annoyed ( as He was with Raavan) then He grants you residence in His own abode ! If He is happy ( as He was with Vibhisana - Raavan's brother) then He grants you Kingdom of Sri Lanka !! Kaliyuga in fact is the best yuga to realise Paramatma. There is " discount sale " period in Kaliyuga. You get the same God merely by chanting repeatedly His name, in Kaliyuga, which God Sages like Vashishtha, Vishwamitra, Ved Vyas, Ahilya, Harishchandra, Savitri etc realised by profound and prolonged austerities, sacrifices, dedication, pains, acid tests, patience and disciplines !! Same Paramatma !! Just keep doing naam japa after " becoming " of Him. " HOHI RAAM KO NAAM JAPI, TULSI TAJI KUSAMAAJ " Says Tulsidasji- Become of Raam first and then do naam japa and renounce bad company That is all is needed ! Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ------------------------- DearSadaks, In Kali yug, there is a great blessing that If one does Nama Sankeerthan is enough to attain level of Anuboothi. In Sat yug one needed to do Tapa, Yagna, Yoga and Smarana. In Thretha yug yagna and Tapa. In Dwaparyug Yagna and smarana. God is described by Vedas as " Apprameyam, Aroopam etc " Means not possible for Anuboothi by senses (prameyam). Aroopam- No deffinite roop. Bagavan has said that HE gives Dhrshan in the form in which Baktha meditates. So HE takes form to give Anuboothi. A shepherd repeatedly requested a saint under a tree to give him Upadesh (sermon) of anyone one name of God to meditate. The saint in frustration told a word in Sanskrit which meant bull. The man with Shardha and Bakthi made nama Sankeerthan of that word. Sri Visnu appeared with bull head. This is real instance inscribed in Guruvayur temple. Hiranyakasipu (father of Prahalad) obtained long list of boon to evade death. For Sri Vishnu it was possible to take a Avathar setting aside the boon. Here the Hranyakasipu had made up in mind a picture of Sri Visnu as demon who protected Prahalad. He constantly in Smarana (in contemplation) of such a roop. So bagavan appeared so. Here Bagavan appeared to punish Hiranya. For Bakthas (devotees) he appears as Sri Krishna, Panduranga, Padmanaba and even as a child Krishna to many Bakthas in Guruvayur which is known as Southern Vaikunt to liberate. B.Sathyanarayan ----------------------------- Dear Agrawalji, Your question is no doubt practical. Spiritual elevation is a gradual process. That is obvious from the fact that we are supposed to go through 84 lakh janmaas. In Kaliyuga also, at any given time, we have persons of varying spiritual hues. All of us know that there have been a continuous succession of enlightened souls in our country from time immemorial to this day and we have great yogis living and guiding us to this day too. So coming to your question, it is very much possible to have enlightenment and insight anubhuthi of God. Let us have unshakeable faith in our guru and in shastraas, (guru, vedaantha vakyeshu vishwasah shraddha) , lead a life bereft of shad doshaas (Kama, krodha, lobha, moha, mada & maatsarya), develop detachment, use our intelligence correctly and worship God with a firm desire for Moksha and faith that we shall have it. He will enlighten us. He will give us His sight in the form of others and enlighten us in life through our own inner voice and through advice from the learned. The result ( enlightenment and insight anubhuthi of God ) is not doubtful; our earnest and sincere effort is! Jai Shri Krishna! Major Ramanujam. ------------------------------- GUIDELINES FOR POSTING A RESPONSE: 1. The group is focused on the Holy Gitaji, therefore, responses which further clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will be the area of focus. 2. Making reference of Gitaji shloka is highly encouraged. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures. 3. Please be as concise and to the point, addressing only the subject at hand, thus respecting sadhaka's time. Please limit response to half a book page (3-4 paragraphs). 4. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas 5. Please do not include links to the other sites or other organizations (we do not have the bandwidth to review links to determine if content is appropriate for distribution). 6. Complete reproduction of texts from any book is strongly discouraged, however partial cut - paste is acceptable and references may be made of the book or author(but not links to sites). 7. Kindly do not include personal information - phone #, address etc. 8. Please use appropriate judgement and only address the response to a particular individual, where it makes sense to do so. 9. Due to the large readership, only those responses will be posted which are in line with the general philosophy of taking Shrimad Bhagavad Gita as the reference. 10. Moderator will reject any content that does not meet guidelines. However, for expediency, moderator at his discretion, may modify / delete portions of the posting deemed irrelevant to the core discussion (e.g. personal information, opinions / feelings etc.) 11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use of only Sanskrit words, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit bracketed wherever possible. 12. Any personal remarks over the knowledge of any sadhak or about the stage at which any sadhak is standing in his quest / sadhna / spiritual journey - must not be included in your posting. Also, there should not be any sarcasm towards fellow sadhaks in this spiritual learning and sharing. GITA TALK MODERATOR Ram Ram Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 15, 2008 Report Share Posted October 15, 2008 Dear Sadhakji and members Jai Shri Krishna i am reading with interest responses to various Gita related spiritual queries being circulated on the Sadhaka . Lord Krishna was throughout with Karurabas and Panadavas and gave a 18 day Sermons to Arjuna in the Kureshetra.. Even Arjuna had darshan of Virat Swaroop of Lord Krishna, he was in a state of confusion practically till the last stage of Gita's sermon and in Gita 18:64 and Gita 18:72, Lord Krishna not sure of Arjuna's response is seeking his confirmation whether his Agyana (ignorance) and Moha (attachment) are wiped out. That being the case of Arjuna and other characters of Mahabharat, who were otherwise very intelligent, Raj yogis and had the benefit of constant company and advice of Lord Krishna, the question I have is.... QUESTION: I am not very sure how it is possible for any of us in Kaliyuga to have Enlightenment and insight Anubhuti of God by whatsoever name we call him or address him? I will request Sadhakji and other members to guide me in this regards. Thanks and regards G. K. Agrawal ------------------------ NEW POSTING -Shree Hari- Surely in the darkest of places, the smallest spark can be seen. And if you contemplate Gitaji, Chapters 10 and 11 in full, how can Kaliyuga's darkness obliterate Bhagavan. Paramatman is the very essence of all, so the Divine is with us through all the ages. Thus Moksha must be available at all times surely? Can you meditate in a rowdy place? I was taught to meditate in many conditions, not just in a peaceful perfect place. I suppose if purposeful enough one could meditate in bedlam. Is not the world bedlam? So why should that stop a soul who burns with desire for the Beloved becoming at one with him? With Respect and Divine Love, Mike Keenor ------------------------ Shree Hari Ram Ram Dear Mr. Agrawal, thanks for the question " : Is Enlightment a Mirage " In fact the very opposite is true, according our scriptures and sages of the yore, mirage is this world, which truly is not real but appears to be real. Some sages have called the world to be a dream, which appears to be true while it lasts. The world is constantly changing in front of our eyes, yet we consider it to be permanent, what a paradox it is. As Swamiji Maharaj has explained in his discourses (refer to the booklet, " Bhagvan aaj hee mil sakate hain " ) that attaining God is the easiest even in Kaliyuga, all we need to have is an earnest and exclusive desire to attain God and have no other desires. There should be no desire - to live, to die, for respect, for appreciation, for enjoyments, for wealth etc. We do not attain God because really we do not want to attain God. Let us say when we have a desire for money or other objects, then God is leaving us independent, He is not going to interfere with our plans. As revered Swamiji says that God can be attained with keen desire for God, no one has the power to stop this. When the small child cries, the mother has to come. The child does not do any work, but does become a hindrance to getting the work done. But when he starts crying, all household members, take his side. The mother has to leave what she is doing and has to pick up the child. In the same way, if with a pure heart we cry for God, all the devotees of God and sages will take our side and will urge God to embrace us. An example: One time there was sage, a man came to him and asked, how can he meet with God in a hurry. The sage said that whenever you have a keen desire to meet God, you can meet Him. The person asked what it is like to have a keen desire, the sage said when you cannot live without God and are totally restless without meeting him then it is a keen desire. This man did not understand this, so he asked the sage again and again. One day the sage invited him to go with him to take a bath in a river. As the man dived into water, the sage pushed his head into water and kept there for some time. The man was very eager to come up, sage finally let him come up. He complained to sage that being a noble sage why did he behave in this manner, this way the man said - he could have died. The sage asked the man, when he was under the water, what exactly did he remember, did he remember wealth, wife or son etc.? He said, I did not remember a thing except that I could have died, without the breath of air, how could I remember anything at that instant? The sage said this is the answer to your question - what is a keen desire like! When you remember only God and cannot live without Him, then you will attain to God. We cannot reach God by doing actions, because what we get by doing actions does not stay with us. By doing actions we get wealth, fame, respect etc. But when we are in a mode that we can do without God then God also says He cannot do without us. When a devotee prays with a sincere heart, God has to come. No one has the power to stop God from meeting with us. In Gitaji there are number of verses related to this subject, few of them are: Gitaji (4-11): " Ye yatha mam prapadyante, tams tathai va bhajamy aham mama vartma 'nuvartanmte, manusyah partha sarvassah " O' Partha, however devotees worship Me, even so do I accept them and give shelter: for all men ultimately follow My path. In other words, his mercy is unbound, He is paying any attention whether we are deserving or not, he is not mindful of our shortcomings. Gitaji (8-14): " ananyacetah satatam, yo mam smarti nityasah tasya `ham sulbha partha, nityayukasya yoginah " I am easily attainable, O' Partha, by that ever-steadfast yogi, who constantly remembers Me and thinks of Me alone. Gitaji (7-19): Bahunam jamanam ante, jnanavan mam prapadyate Vasudevah sarvam iti, sa mahatma sudurbhah At the end of many births, the man of wisdom comes to Me, realizing that Vasudeva (the Supreme) is all thee is. Such a great soul is very rare. It is very interesting to compare these two verses (who is important, God or Devotee): 8-14 says " God is easily attainable (Sulubha) and 7-19 says the great soul (Mahatma) is rare (Sudurbhah). Ram Ram! Humble regards, Madan Kaura -------------------------------- Dear Friends 1)Kaliyug or Satyug depends upon the nature (Pravriti) of a person. In every time period , there were persons with Satwik nature and for them time was Satyug and there were persons with Tamsik nature (kali or Black) and for them time was kaliyuga.Rawan and Vibhisan were living during same time but for Rawan time was Kaliyug and for Vibhisan ,time was Satyug. 2)Even today some people enjoy bliss of Satyug whereas others undergo suffering of Kaliyug depending upon their nature,mindset or development of their heart. 3)Verses 30,31 and 32 of 9th Chapter refers to the enlightment of person doing maximun bad deeds (durachari)or as if in Kaliyug. 4)Japa or Nama Sankirtan suggested by fellow sadhaks is the right way for persons living in Kaliyug. Enlightment or Anubhuti of God is birth right of every human being because in no other Yonis one can realise God. regards and best wishes Ashok Jain -------------------------------- Enlightenment? probabaly you mean Moksa. The esiest and all time available means to this is simply Bhakti; just devote yourself to him, /ram or Krishna, who se ever, just simiply devote to him. To him it shall be pure prem; and nothing short; you are not at all different from him, you are always one with him. Just go ahead, no matter which Yuga you might live in, it makes no differene at all. Visharad Sharma ------------------------------- If on your own one is not able to achieve enlightenment then one can seek guidance from an enlightened Soul, who will show the path to God through right karmas and meditation. Hari Shanker Deo -------------------------------- Namaste Mr GK Agarwal, What makes you think we are still in Kaliyuga? We have moved beyond it. The proof is man's ability to move beyond ignorance and think about things higher than the senses. This came about with the advent of the Industrial Revolution. For more information read about such things in Paramahansa Yogananda's 'Autobiography of a Yogi'. Also, Swami Vivekananda says the Yuga is decided not on the astrological calculations but in the type of leadership provided by the leaders of society. As I understand that Singapore and its ideal society makes it a place where Satya yuga is in existence. Do not blame others about the Yuga but set an example of ideal character by being one yourself whether others are or are not. It starts with you. Make yourself Ideal and others will follow. Set by example, not by rhetoric. Prashanth Konda. ------------------------- Hari Om Why Agarwalji? What is wrong, Sir, with Kaliyuga? In fact everything is wrong with Kaliyuga- except the fact that in Kaliyuga the God Realisation is very easy. Just establish " mineness " with God and keep doing thereafter Naam Japa - over and all. God becomes absolutely irrational in Kaliyuga. ANDHADHUNDH SARKAAR HAI, TULSI BHAJO NISHANK ! KHEEJE DET HAI PARAM PAD, REEJHE DET HAI LANK !! Absolutely blind is the Goverment of Paramatma ! Hence one should doubtlessly do bhajan ! If God is annoyed ( as He was with Raavan) then He grants you residence in His own abode ! If He is happy ( as He was with Vibhisana - Raavan's brother) then He grants you Kingdom of Sri Lanka !! Kaliyuga in fact is the best yuga to realise Paramatma. There is " discount sale " period in Kaliyuga. You get the same God merely by chanting repeatedly His name, in Kaliyuga, which God Sages like Vashishtha, Vishwamitra, Ved Vyas, Ahilya, Harishchandra, Savitri etc realised by profound and prolonged austerities, sacrifices, dedication, pains, acid tests, patience and disciplines !! Same Paramatma !! Just keep doing naam japa after " becoming " of Him. " HOHI RAAM KO NAAM JAPI, TULSI TAJI KUSAMAAJ " Says Tulsidasji- Become of Raam first and then do naam japa and renounce bad company That is all is needed ! Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ------------------------- DearSadaks, In Kali yug, there is a great blessing that If one does Nama Sankeerthan is enough to attain level of Anuboothi. In Sat yug one needed to do Tapa, Yagna, Yoga and Smarana. In Thretha yug yagna and Tapa. In Dwaparyug Yagna and smarana. God is described by Vedas as " Apprameyam, Aroopam etc " Means not possible for Anuboothi by senses (prameyam). Aroopam- No deffinite roop. Bagavan has said that HE gives Dhrshan in the form in which Baktha meditates. So HE takes form to give Anuboothi. A shepherd repeatedly requested a saint under a tree to give him Upadesh (sermon) of anyone one name of God to meditate. The saint in frustration told a word in Sanskrit which meant bull. The man with Shardha and Bakthi made nama Sankeerthan of that word. Sri Visnu appeared with bull head. This is real instance inscribed in Guruvayur temple. Hiranyakasipu (father of Prahalad) obtained long list of boon to evade death. For Sri Vishnu it was possible to take a Avathar setting aside the boon. Here the Hranyakasipu had made up in mind a picture of Sri Visnu as demon who protected Prahalad. He constantly in Smarana (in contemplation) of such a roop. So bagavan appeared so. Here Bagavan appeared to punish Hiranya. For Bakthas (devotees) he appears as Sri Krishna, Panduranga, Padmanaba and even as a child Krishna to many Bakthas in Guruvayur which is known as Southern Vaikunt to liberate. B.Sathyanarayan ----------------------------- Dear Agrawalji, Your question is no doubt practical. Spiritual elevation is a gradual process. That is obvious from the fact that we are supposed to go through 84 lakh janmaas. In Kaliyuga also, at any given time, we have persons of varying spiritual hues. All of us know that there have been a continuous succession of enlightened souls in our country from time immemorial to this day and we have great yogis living and guiding us to this day too. So coming to your question, it is very much possible to have enlightenment and insight anubhuthi of God. Let us have unshakeable faith in our guru and in shastraas, (guru, vedaantha vakyeshu vishwasah shraddha) , lead a life bereft of shad doshaas (Kama, krodha, lobha, moha, mada & maatsarya), develop detachment, use our intelligence correctly and worship God with a firm desire for Moksha and faith that we shall have it. He will enlighten us. He will give us His sight in the form of others and enlighten us in life through our own inner voice and through advice from the learned. The result ( enlightenment and insight anubhuthi of God ) is not doubtful; our earnest and sincere effort is! Jai Shri Krishna! Major Ramanujam. ------------------------------- GUIDELINES FOR POSTING A RESPONSE: 1. The group is focused on the Holy Gitaji, therefore, responses which further clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will be the area of focus. 2. Making reference of Gitaji shloka is highly encouraged. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures. 3. Please be as concise and to the point, addressing only the subject at hand, thus respecting sadhaka's time. Please limit response to half a book page (3-4 paragraphs). 4. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas 5. Please do not include links to the other sites or other organizations (we do not have the bandwidth to review links to determine if content is appropriate for distribution). 6. Complete reproduction of texts from any book is strongly discouraged, however partial cut - paste is acceptable and references may be made of the book or author(but not links to sites). 7. Kindly do not include personal information - phone #, address etc. 8. Please use appropriate judgement and only address the response to a particular individual, where it makes sense to do so. 9. Due to the large readership, only those responses will be posted which are in line with the general philosophy of taking Shrimad Bhagavad Gita as the reference. 10. Moderator will reject any content that does not meet guidelines. However, for expediency, moderator at his discretion, may modify / delete portions of the posting deemed irrelevant to the core discussion (e.g. personal information, opinions / feelings etc.) 11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use of only Sanskrit words, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit bracketed wherever possible. 12. Any personal remarks over the knowledge of any sadhak or about the stage at which any sadhak is standing in his quest / sadhna / spiritual journey - must not be included in your posting. Also, there should not be any sarcasm towards fellow sadhaks in this spiritual learning and sharing. GITA TALK MODERATOR Ram Ram Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 16, 2008 Report Share Posted October 16, 2008 Dear Sadhakji and members Jai Shri Krishna i am reading with interest responses to various Gita related spiritual queries being circulated on the Sadhaka . Lord Krishna was throughout with Karurabas and Panadavas and gave a 18 day Sermons to Arjuna in the Kureshetra.. Even Arjuna had darshan of Virat Swaroop of Lord Krishna, he was in a state of confusion practically till the last stage of Gita's sermon and in Gita 18:64 and Gita 18:72, Lord Krishna not sure of Arjuna's response is seeking his confirmation whether his Agyana (ignorance) and Moha (attachment) are wiped out. That being the case of Arjuna and other characters of Mahabharat, who were otherwise very intelligent, Raj yogis and had the benefit of constant company and advice of Lord Krishna, the question I have is.... QUESTION: I am not very sure how it is possible for any of us in Kaliyuga to have Enlightenment and insight Anubhuti of God by whatsoever name we call him or address him? I will request Sadhakji and other members to guide me in this regards. Thanks and regards G. K. Agrawal ------------------------ NEW POSTING Ram Ram Swamiji has said that in Kaliyug, enlightenment is very easy. Therefore distance yourself (remove) from the greatest obstacle of all, then work is complete. Now what does it mean to distance yourself from the obstacle? To leave the belief that such things as enlightenment are difficult in Kaliyug. Then one has to only believe by the Self " I am Bhagwan's and I am no one else's. Only Bhagwan is my very own and besides God, no one else is my very own. " Thereafter don't do anything. So be it ! Ram Ram Sarvottam IN HINDI Swamiji ne kahaa hai ki Kaliyug mein toh yeh saraltam hai. Sabse badi badhaa door kar lijiye, bas ho gayaa. Baadhaa door karnaa kyaa hai? Yeh maananaa chode de ki Kaliyug mein aisa honaa katheen hai. Phir kewal swayam se yahin maanenaa hai " Mein Bhagwaan ka hu aur kisi kaa nahin. Kewal Bhagwaan hi mere apne hai, aur koyi mera panaa nahin hai. " Phir kuch mat kijiye. Astu ! Ram Ram. Sarvottam ------------------------------- Best way in kaliyug is to only sing the glories of God. To praise God's love, and accept God as our best. IN HINDI Kaliyug kewal harigun gaha gawat nar pawahi bhav thaha Thanx Raja Gurdasani ------------------------- Naham Karta Hari Karta Jai Shri Krishna The question " Is Enlightenment a Mirage? " is a very provocative one, though it is perhaps important to realise at what stage of understanding one is encountering such a question and with what intent in view. In a manner of speaking, such questions can be really infantile and do not really merit to feature in forums such as this one. However, I would presume that it may not be unusual to be confronted with such questions even by sadakas at some stage or other and be answered lest they result in wastage of what may be a life time of efforts to rise from the morass of ignorance and faith in capabilities of one's own mind. At the outset it is important to realize what constitutes an abuse of basic rules of language because they seem to as in this case detach one from its responsible use. Here for instance, there is an infinite regress between " enlightenment " and " mirage " - i.e. an attempt to say that " enlightenment " as falsely understood may actually be a " mirage " OR as if, should " enlightenment " were to be truly an enlightenment, it ought to be different from what is said to be " enlightenment " as stated in Sri Bhagwat Geeta. For a moment, let us forget about the " Vishwaroopa " or the true godhead and instead turn to understanding ourselves in relation to Arjuna. I would like to ask GK Agrwalji, whether it is correct to put " ourselves " (i.e Shri Agrawalji and myself included ) and " Arjuna " in the same category. More questions to ponder are : What are the qualities attributed to Arjuna's personality in Mahabharata and Why is it that of all, it was only Arjuna, that Krishna chose to reveal his true godhead. What is the significance of momentary revelation of godhead to Arjuna over his more certain and continued confusion and grief. A true sadaka can find answers to these questions only by his own efforts and with prior blessings of a Guru. Should there be no such efforts, the Mahabharata will be a free floating fable or story, where any event can be explained in any convenient way and thereby get redundant. It is Arjuna's ability for supreme one-minded devotion to his calling, his indomitable will-power to excel and his unfailing ability to set and hit the target, despite worst of circumstances , that really endears him to Sri Krishna. All of Arjuna's qualities are for us to emulate and then alone we really get the chance for a glimpse (only a glimpse) of God. A mere glimpse (anubhuti) would really suffice to lift us all out of the misery of life and more worthy than all the mirages we try to live under. The second part of Shri Agrawalji's dilemna is ; if all that Arjuna could get out of Sri Krishna was just a momentary anubhuti, in the Dwaparayuga, is it really worth the effort (or practically feasible) to even think of it in this atrocious Kaliyuga, where time is the most precious commodity. If Arjuna got his anubhuti for only a split second, we might perhaps actually end up with just few nano- seconds of such anubhuti and nothing more. It is still a worthy goal for life than to give it up as a mirage? Sriman Madhawacharya who wrote the treatise Sri Geeta Tatparya Nirnaya, goes into many of these interpretative nuances of Bhagwatgeeta to set to rest many gnawing doubts that is being raised not only now but might be raised in future as well. The human mind's attributes and potencies are finite and they are fathomable and in Mahabharata and Bhawatgeeta these have indeed been precisely gauged well. In reign of Kaliyuga, the seers have said time and again that while it is virtually impossible to pursue and persist in the path shown by Vedas, upanishads and puranas, even the feeblest of efforts made surrender oneself to god and to try and understand the limitations of our mind and senses can yield disproportionate results in realization of Godhead. We probably need not try as hard as Arjuna but perhaps also not indulge in too much of mental acrobatics, that revels in what is called a " category error " Jai Sri Krishna Vijayendra Acharya ---------------------------- PRIOR POSTING -Shree Hari- Surely in the darkest of places, the smallest spark can be seen. And if you contemplate Gitaji, Chapters 10 and 11 in full, how can Kaliyuga's darkness obliterate Bhagavan. Paramatman is the very essence of all, so the Divine is with us through all the ages. Thus Moksha must be available at all times surely? Can you meditate in a rowdy place? I was taught to meditate in many conditions, not just in a peaceful perfect place. I suppose if purposeful enough one could meditate in bedlam. Is not the world bedlam? So why should that stop a soul who burns with desire for the Beloved becoming at one with him? With Respect and Divine Love, Mike Keenor ------------------------ Shree Hari Ram Ram Dear Mr. Agrawal, thanks for the question " : Is Enlightment a Mirage " In fact the very opposite is true, according our scriptures and sages of the yore, mirage is this world, which truly is not real but appears to be real. Some sages have called the world to be a dream, which appears to be true while it lasts. The world is constantly changing in front of our eyes, yet we consider it to be permanent, what a paradox it is. As Swamiji Maharaj has explained in his discourses (refer to the booklet, " Bhagvan aaj hee mil sakate hain " ) that attaining God is the easiest even in Kaliyuga, all we need to have is an earnest and exclusive desire to attain God and have no other desires. There should be no desire - to live, to die, for respect, for appreciation, for enjoyments, for wealth etc. We do not attain God because really we do not want to attain God. Let us say when we have a desire for money or other objects, then God is leaving us independent, He is not going to interfere with our plans. As revered Swamiji says that God can be attained with keen desire for God, no one has the power to stop this. When the small child cries, the mother has to come. The child does not do any work, but does become a hindrance to getting the work done. But when he starts crying, all household members, take his side. The mother has to leave what she is doing and has to pick up the child. In the same way, if with a pure heart we cry for God, all the devotees of God and sages will take our side and will urge God to embrace us. An example: One time there was sage, a man came to him and asked, how can he meet with God in a hurry. The sage said that whenever you have a keen desire to meet God, you can meet Him. The person asked what it is like to have a keen desire, the sage said when you cannot live without God and are totally restless without meeting him then it is a keen desire. This man did not understand this, so he asked the sage again and again. One day the sage invited him to go with him to take a bath in a river. As the man dived into water, the sage pushed his head into water and kept there for some time. The man was very eager to come up, sage finally let him come up. He complained to sage that being a noble sage why did he behave in this manner, this way the man said - he could have died. The sage asked the man, when he was under the water, what exactly did he remember, did he remember wealth, wife or son etc.? He said, I did not remember a thing except that I could have died, without the breath of air, how could I remember anything at that instant? The sage said this is the answer to your question - what is a keen desire like! When you remember only God and cannot live without Him, then you will attain to God. We cannot reach God by doing actions, because what we get by doing actions does not stay with us. By doing actions we get wealth, fame, respect etc. But when we are in a mode that we can do without God then God also says He cannot do without us. When a devotee prays with a sincere heart, God has to come. No one has the power to stop God from meeting with us. In Gitaji there are number of verses related to this subject, few of them are: Gitaji (4-11): " Ye yatha mam prapadyante, tams tathai va bhajamy aham mama vartma 'nuvartanmte, manusyah partha sarvassah " O' Partha, however devotees worship Me, even so do I accept them and give shelter: for all men ultimately follow My path. In other words, his mercy is unbound, He is paying any attention whether we are deserving or not, he is not mindful of our shortcomings. Gitaji (8-14): " ananyacetah satatam, yo mam smarti nityasah tasya `ham sulbha partha, nityayukasya yoginah " I am easily attainable, O' Partha, by that ever-steadfast yogi, who constantly remembers Me and thinks of Me alone. Gitaji (7-19): Bahunam jamanam ante, jnanavan mam prapadyate Vasudevah sarvam iti, sa mahatma sudurbhah At the end of many births, the man of wisdom comes to Me, realizing that Vasudeva (the Supreme) is all thee is. Such a great soul is very rare. It is very interesting to compare these two verses (who is important, God or Devotee): 8-14 says " God is easily attainable (Sulubha) and 7-19 says the great soul (Mahatma) is rare (Sudurbhah). Ram Ram! Humble regards, Madan Kaura -------------------------------- Dear Friends 1)Kaliyug or Satyug depends upon the nature (Pravriti) of a person. In every time period , there were persons with Satwik nature and for them time was Satyug and there were persons with Tamsik nature (kali or Black) and for them time was kaliyuga.Rawan and Vibhisan were living during same time but for Rawan time was Kaliyug and for Vibhisan ,time was Satyug. 2)Even today some people enjoy bliss of Satyug whereas others undergo suffering of Kaliyug depending upon their nature,mindset or development of their heart. 3)Verses 30,31 and 32 of 9th Chapter refers to the enlightment of person doing maximun bad deeds (durachari)or as if in Kaliyug. 4)Japa or Nama Sankirtan suggested by fellow sadhaks is the right way for persons living in Kaliyug. Enlightment or Anubhuti of God is birth right of every human being because in no other Yonis one can realise God. regards and best wishes Ashok Jain -------------------------------- Enlightenment? probabaly you mean Moksa. The esiest and all time available means to this is simply Bhakti; just devote yourself to him, /ram or Krishna, who se ever, just simiply devote to him. To him it shall be pure prem; and nothing short; you are not at all different from him, you are always one with him. Just go ahead, no matter which Yuga you might live in, it makes no differene at all. Visharad Sharma ------------------------------- If on your own one is not able to achieve enlightenment then one can seek guidance from an enlightened Soul, who will show the path to God through right karmas and meditation. Hari Shanker Deo -------------------------------- Namaste Mr GK Agarwal, What makes you think we are still in Kaliyuga? We have moved beyond it. The proof is man's ability to move beyond ignorance and think about things higher than the senses. This came about with the advent of the Industrial Revolution. For more information read about such things in Paramahansa Yogananda's 'Autobiography of a Yogi'. Also, Swami Vivekananda says the Yuga is decided not on the astrological calculations but in the type of leadership provided by the leaders of society. As I understand that Singapore and its ideal society makes it a place where Satya yuga is in existence. Do not blame others about the Yuga but set an example of ideal character by being one yourself whether others are or are not. It starts with you. Make yourself Ideal and others will follow. Set by example, not by rhetoric. Prashanth Konda. ------------------------- Hari Om Why Agarwalji? What is wrong, Sir, with Kaliyuga? In fact everything is wrong with Kaliyuga- except the fact that in Kaliyuga the God Realisation is very easy. Just establish " mineness " with God and keep doing thereafter Naam Japa - over and all. God becomes absolutely irrational in Kaliyuga. ANDHADHUNDH SARKAAR HAI, TULSI BHAJO NISHANK ! KHEEJE DET HAI PARAM PAD, REEJHE DET HAI LANK !! Absolutely blind is the Goverment of Paramatma ! Hence one should doubtlessly do bhajan ! If God is annoyed ( as He was with Raavan) then He grants you residence in His own abode ! If He is happy ( as He was with Vibhisana - Raavan's brother) then He grants you Kingdom of Sri Lanka !! Kaliyuga in fact is the best yuga to realise Paramatma. There is " discount sale " period in Kaliyuga. You get the same God merely by chanting repeatedly His name, in Kaliyuga, which God Sages like Vashishtha, Vishwamitra, Ved Vyas, Ahilya, Harishchandra, Savitri etc realised by profound and prolonged austerities, sacrifices, dedication, pains, acid tests, patience and disciplines !! Same Paramatma !! Just keep doing naam japa after " becoming " of Him. " HOHI RAAM KO NAAM JAPI, TULSI TAJI KUSAMAAJ " Says Tulsidasji- Become of Raam first and then do naam japa and renounce bad company That is all is needed ! Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ------------------------- DearSadaks, In Kali yug, there is a great blessing that If one does Nama Sankeerthan is enough to attain level of Anuboothi. In Sat yug one needed to do Tapa, Yagna, Yoga and Smarana. In Thretha yug yagna and Tapa. In Dwaparyug Yagna and smarana. God is described by Vedas as " Apprameyam, Aroopam etc " Means not possible for Anuboothi by senses (prameyam). Aroopam- No deffinite roop. Bagavan has said that HE gives Dhrshan in the form in which Baktha meditates. So HE takes form to give Anuboothi. A shepherd repeatedly requested a saint under a tree to give him Upadesh (sermon) of anyone one name of God to meditate. The saint in frustration told a word in Sanskrit which meant bull. The man with Shardha and Bakthi made nama Sankeerthan of that word. Sri Visnu appeared with bull head. This is real instance inscribed in Guruvayur temple. Hiranyakasipu (father of Prahalad) obtained long list of boon to evade death. For Sri Vishnu it was possible to take a Avathar setting aside the boon. Here the Hranyakasipu had made up in mind a picture of Sri Visnu as demon who protected Prahalad. He constantly in Smarana (in contemplation) of such a roop. So bagavan appeared so. Here Bagavan appeared to punish Hiranya. For Bakthas (devotees) he appears as Sri Krishna, Panduranga, Padmanaba and even as a child Krishna to many Bakthas in Guruvayur which is known as Southern Vaikunt to liberate. B.Sathyanarayan ----------------------------- Dear Agrawalji, Your question is no doubt practical. Spiritual elevation is a gradual process. That is obvious from the fact that we are supposed to go through 84 lakh janmaas. In Kaliyuga also, at any given time, we have persons of varying spiritual hues. All of us know that there have been a continuous succession of enlightened souls in our country from time immemorial to this day and we have great yogis living and guiding us to this day too. So coming to your question, it is very much possible to have enlightenment and insight anubhuthi of God. Let us have unshakeable faith in our guru and in shastraas, (guru, vedaantha vakyeshu vishwasah shraddha) , lead a life bereft of shad doshaas (Kama, krodha, lobha, moha, mada & maatsarya), develop detachment, use our intelligence correctly and worship God with a firm desire for Moksha and faith that we shall have it. He will enlighten us. He will give us His sight in the form of others and enlighten us in life through our own inner voice and through advice from the learned. The result ( enlightenment and insight anubhuthi of God ) is not doubtful; our earnest and sincere effort is! Jai Shri Krishna! Major Ramanujam. ------------------------------- GUIDELINES FOR POSTING A RESPONSE: 1. The group is focused on the Holy Gitaji, therefore, responses which further clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will be the area of focus. 2. Making reference of Gitaji shloka is highly encouraged. 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Due to the large readership, only those responses will be posted which are in line with the general philosophy of taking Shrimad Bhagavad Gita as the reference. 10. Moderator will reject any content that does not meet guidelines. However, for expediency, moderator at his discretion, may modify / delete portions of the posting deemed irrelevant to the core discussion (e.g. personal information, opinions / feelings etc.) 11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use of only Sanskrit words, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit bracketed wherever possible. 12. Any personal remarks over the knowledge of any sadhak or about the stage at which any sadhak is standing in his quest / sadhna / spiritual journey - must not be included in your posting. Also, there should not be any sarcasm towards fellow sadhaks in this spiritual learning and sharing. 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