Guest guest Posted October 30, 2008 Report Share Posted October 30, 2008 Loving Divine, Pranam. In the following email I read... " But who in fact is suffering? Certainly not the mental equipment being inert itself. It is Jeeva , we ourselves suffer... " I have a question - can jeeva, being an atom of pramaatma, can ever suffer? Mind, body, intellect, being inert, can any of them suffer? Then truly, who is suffering? humble regards, always at Thy Holy Feet On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 11:25 PM, sadhak_insight <sadhak_insight wrote: jai latiyal IN ENGLISH: In this world, what is the greatest wonderment / astonishment of all? What does Gita say about it? IN HINDI: Duniya ka sab se badha aaschariya kya hein. Is per, Gita kaa kyaa abhipraay hai? [shivkumar naravat] ------------------------- NEW POSTING Hari Om Jeeva, like a traveller is never at peace, till destination is reached. Having spent considerable time in the hell, 6 THEN GETTING UP FROM THE WELL IN DUE TIME. He went to the hell with his subtle body viz with his " svabhav " - habits, individual nature , his attitude towards the world. He comes back improved but the old " svabhav " is hard to be conquered, can be substantially conquered only in human life. In the hell majority of past deeds get redeemed. Now he shall have lesser obstacles of destiny. HE ENTERED THE THORNY FOREST , THEN AGAIN DEPARTING AND BEATING HIMSELF OFTEN, Again, in the fresh human life, he could not leave desires. He still makes efforts, toils hard, he comes back purer from hell , but decides to run, to chase, to show, to follow to compete, to prove, to establish, to set trends.... To get something, to do something, to know something. He makes more efforts in a focussed manner, to get worldly things. He tolerates pains in the hope of more and more worldly pleasures. But all worldly . He however forgets that the real cause of his pain , is not lack of efforts, vision, focus, capacity or knowledge, ..... But the desires! Pains continue.But he acquires by his vision, capacity, a decent quantum of good karmas to his credit- as past karmas do not haunt him badly. 7 RUNNING AND LAUGHING But efforts and karma have their own positive temporary results too. Focus, desire, destiny, efforts, grace of God makes him rich in conduct and wisdom, and happiness of worldly achievements start coming to him as naturally as after night day comes. He enjoys labour. And goes after death to heaven which in this story has been described as " AND HAVING GONE TO A COOL FOREST OF PLAINTAIN TREES " 8 DEPARTING FROM THAT IN A MOMENT, BEATING HIMSELF OFTEN AND RUNNING AWAY , HE AGAIN FELL INTO THE SAME WELL WITH THE HIDDEN MOUTH Worldly pleasures spoil the habit. Most of the good deeds got exchanged in the heavens. From heavens again to the earth, Jeeva is back to square one. Same desires, same habits, same attitude and same hell again ! Because desires continue. Alas ! How a man degrades himself by desiring. Cycle continues of pleasure and pain, heaven and hell, gloom and gaity, ...... And continues, and continues .... And so continue the desires, the attitude towards the world, the likings, the dislikings, the connection with the body, with mind, with ego, with intellect because Jeeva never leaves the shelter of subtle body and causal body even in heavens or in hell- he cannot do so there, he can only do so in human life, because he acquired them in human life only at the first time !! Any views Shashikalaji ? Jai Shree Krishna. VYAS N B ------------------------- Jai Hanuman Having been caught in the circle of pleasure and pain and having complete reliance on ever changing mind and intellect and having not been able to distinguish the self with the ego - the Jeeva suffers immense pains and only pains arising out of desires. The mind keeps cheating Jeeva continuously both in temporary pleasures and permanent pain. Mind makes Jeeva believe that pleasure is generated by " fulfillment of desires " - in which effort mind was on the driver's seat. It is cheating in fact ! In reality, the " fulfillment of desires " do not bring pleasure to Jeeva , the giving up of desire by the mind , brings relative pleasure !! You get pleasure because the desire is no more! For example, we desire getting say 10000 dollars, and we get it. We get pleased. Now the pleasure is not because we got 10000 dollars, but because there is no pain of desire. Giving up of desire has generated pleasure by operation of law stated in BG 12:12 ! Had receipt of dollars generated happiness we would not have felt sorrow till money remained in tact with us!! We get cheated by the mind, and there arise instantly more desires !! What a Maya !! Evil is dead upon fulfillment of desire but gets awakened by more desires! We never learn from our mistakes, Jee! In happiness, as well as in sorrow,mind cheats us. But who in fact is suffering? Certainly not the mental equipment being inert itself. It is Jeeva , we ourselves suffer! What is our fault? We think our ego, mind, intellect to be " me/mine " ! They continue always, however, neither " you " nor " yours " !! Always ! They are different altogether by nature wise, element wise, every wise !!! They belong to the world, you belong to the God ! When defeat/failure comes , " your " mind/intellect/ego shamelessly suggest to you that ....... " It happens " . They will pamper you by telling that either the God was responsible for failure, or the time, or kaliyuga, or world or that person/this circumstance/ that happenning/ this incidence ....... Or destiny/fate/luck is responsible ! We , mind/intellect/ego , are not responsible Mr Self ! ( So you sometimes say " I was right but the time/luck was bad " ) ! But do your mind/intellect/ego ever say so when you succeed ? No ! They then say " me " " me " - you also join the chorus - " my mind " , " my vision " , " my capacity " , " my intelligence " , " me .... me ..... mine .... mine " , " I " , " I did it " ..... " Me mine me " ...... Non sense !! What a cheating Jee ? What a treachery, Jee ? What an illusion, Dear Sadhaks ?. How shabbily you mind, intellect, ego treat you, Dear ? Are they worth being proud of ? How easily they convert you from " sahaj sukhrasi " , avinashi ( imperishable and naturally blissful) , part of God, and a Master to a deficient, ever sorrowful , a slave and a simpleton, a stupid, a damn fool !! This is Maya , Jee ! Namaste Jee Jee Jee Shashikala ---------------------------- GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: 1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify their doubts related to Gitaji shalokas. Therefore, responses which further clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be posted. 2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to substantiate your response. 3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas 4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting sadhaka's time. 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only. 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other organizations. 7. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone number, address etc. 8. Please do not address the response to a particular individual since the message is going to the entire group. 9. Due to the large readership, all responses may not be posted. 10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if content is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the group. 11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use to Sanskrit words only, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit bracketed wherever possible. MODERATOR Ram Ram ------------------------ Post message: Subscribe: - Un: - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 31, 2008 Report Share Posted October 31, 2008 Loving Divine, Pranam. In the following email I read... " But who in fact is suffering? Certainly not the mental equipment being inert itself. It is Jeeva , we ourselves suffer... " I have a question - can jeeva, being an atom of pramaatma, can ever suffer? Mind, body, intellect, being inert, can any of them suffer? Then truly, who is suffering? humble regards, always at Thy Holy Feet --------------------------- NEW POSTING Hari Om, The sufferer is the 'ego' identified with the mind equipment, will be released when identified continuously with the Brahman , the Light that lights even the ego. M.Nagaraju. -------------------------- Hari Om An excellent question indeed! Questions like this in fact help a sadhak gathering momentum. I shall have to really gather more from Taat Shree's pravachans ( discourses of Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj). I will come back. This question haunted me too for a long time, because of 2 apparantly contradictory verses in the same 13th Chapter of Gitaji - 13:20 and. 13:29 . In the meantime, please note that as a law only " Karta " (doer) suffers ! The doer can't be mind/intellect/body because they are " inert " / they are " non existent " (BG 2:16) . Karta can't be SELF ( pure self) because for pure soul Gita at many places confirms that it can't be doer ( One such verse is 13:31) - na karoti na lipyate- neither does nor gets attached ! So who suffers ? Machine called mind certainly does not ! Pure soul certainly does not ! Who remained then - Jeeva ! Who else ? Jeeva. One who believes that " I am the doer " ! One who " adopts the world " ( BG 7:5) ! Of course, there is a distinction between " pure individual soul " and " Jeeva " - the latter term is in respect of " embodied soul " - the former only, however since it " adopts the world " (BG 7:5) it is called Jeeva ! " JEEVA BHUTAM MAHABAHO YAYEDAM DHARYATE JAGAT " (BG 7:5) Mike ! What do you say Sir? Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ------------------------- Jai Shri Krishna! Who is Suffering ? Whoever has raised this question has really touched a deep thought provoking issue. Chapter 13 of Bhagavad Gita deals with this in exclusive detail. Human body contains 23 tathwaas and Athma. The 5 basic elements, 5 Organs of Knowledge, 5 Organs of Action, 5 Tanmaatraas, ego, intellect and mind make the 23. These 23 coming under the spell of the 3 gunaas of Maaya, experience the attributes of the body, i.e., desire, aversion, pleasure, pain, consciousness, firmness. Combined these are known as Kshetra. The individual Soul is the Kshetrajna. Wisdom or Knowledge is awareness of Kshetra and Kshetrajna. Soul is essentially the Paramaathman existing within the human being as Jivaathman and witnessing the play within the Kshetra illuminating it! Now go to Shloka 32, which puts the cap to this teaching: " As the all pervading ether is not tainted by the reason of its subtlety, so seated every where in the body, the Self is not affected by the attributes of the body due to Its attributeless character. " The Soul is neither the Kartha (Doer) nor the Bhoktha (Enjoyer). This is not abstract theory. When Sri Ramana Maharishi had to be operated upon for a tumour, he refused anesthesia, for he said " the pain will be experienced by the body, not me! " When King Janaka was told that his capital city Mithila was on fire, he asked " what about that for me? " Regards. Prof Ramanujam --------------------------- Dear Sadaks, Whole body suffers as one thinks that body and soul are 2 differant. Mind suffers due to unstability. Intellect suffers when doing wrong action against it. But all these do not suffer when one attains divinity. Ex: Samarpa Ramadoss fever. Ramana Rishi tumour on leg. Hanuman tail when troched. Ramakrishna Parama Hamsa with throat cancer. Jada Bharatha head was to be slained, but his face looked like just flowered lotus says Srimath Bagavath. Kunthi asked Boon with Bagavan to give her more sufferings as it sent divine thoughts on Bagavan. Many more can be said. But for lay man sufferings are felt, as he does not know what is inert. Very clear in BG that Jeeva is a wittness to all cause and effect. But what stands between Jeeva and Paramathuma is desires. BG says Kama Yeshu, Krodha Yeshu Etc Script say even desiring for Mukthi is not Good. Matha Uma Maheswari saw Samba the son of Sri Krishna and said to Bagavan Shiva, " How beautiful Samba looks " . Samba was her son Sri Muruga later. King Bali daughter looking at Vamana deeply thought that Vamana looks great to be her child. A little later when Bali was sent to Patala by Vamana, She thought deeply that a child of that nature should be breast fed with poison. She was Poothana during Sri Krishna Avathar, gave milk and got herself killed but went to Vaikunt. Fire dharma is to burn anything. Bagavan Dharma is take anyone to HIS abode whether he remains in enimity or bakthi. Naradha Bakthi Sustra says, Bagavan gives mukthi to the one always abusing HIM. The theme is that Anniyachitayayome by what ever means. In abusing and having krodh against Bagavan the thoughts are deeper than bakthi. In bakthi may be sometimes one forgets. But thoughts against Bagavan are so strong that even in sleep one trembles fearing Bagavan. B.Sathyanarayan -------------------------- Dear Sadhak/Sadhika, This is a wonderful group of real seekers.Can I ask you something ? Our body is made up of Jad tatva like water, fire, earth, akaash, and air. These elements donot feel pain. And as Gitaji says soul also does not feel pain too. Then who always complain that " I am suffering ? " or " I have pain " etc ??? Who is that sufferer ??? It could not be anyone else other then our MIND ?Am I right ? What is the connection between our mind and jeevatma ? Sorry to ask so many questions in one e-mail.... Please share yr knowledge With lots of love, A sadhika Sadhana Karigar --------------------------- Respected Sadhakas, I would like to know that besides the .1 % of enlightened Krishna conscious souls who seem to be content, the rest are always suffering.You can say that it is because of their desires,but I ask why and where was the need to create all this disease,old age,death for beings ,why would a just God just sit back and see so many people keep falling in the trap of his very own maya and ultimately die. Why did Lord Krishna have to do this ,to create the world just because he so desired,didnt he know that we were going to suffer. I have heard that he did not intend,its just our ignorance,but that ignorance is common to 99.9% souls,didnt he know that would be the case. I know that I am short of understanding but I cant love God when I see old people,when I see disease and when I realize that I have to go through death,and when I realize that I am in a trap in which there is no escape. Regards Vishal SRK ------------- PRIOR POSTING On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 11:25 PM, sadhak_insight <sadhak_insight wrote: jai latiyal IN ENGLISH: In this world, what is the greatest wonderment / astonishment of all? What does Gita say about it? IN HINDI: Duniya ka sab se badha aaschariya kya hein. Is per, Gita kaa kyaa abhipraay hai? [shivkumar naravat] ------------------------- NEW POSTING Hari Om Jeeva, like a traveller is never at peace, till destination is reached. Having spent considerable time in the hell, 6 THEN GETTING UP FROM THE WELL IN DUE TIME. He went to the hell with his subtle body viz with his " svabhav " - habits, individual nature , his attitude towards the world. He comes back improved but the old " svabhav " is hard to be conquered, can be substantially conquered only in human life. In the hell majority of past deeds get redeemed. Now he shall have lesser obstacles of destiny. HE ENTERED THE THORNY FOREST , THEN AGAIN DEPARTING AND BEATING HIMSELF OFTEN, Again, in the fresh human life, he could not leave desires. He still makes efforts, toils hard, he comes back purer from hell , but decides to run, to chase, to show, to follow to compete, to prove, to establish, to set trends.... To get something, to do something, to know something. He makes more efforts in a focussed manner, to get worldly things. He tolerates pains in the hope of more and more worldly pleasures. But all worldly . He however forgets that the real cause of his pain , is not lack of efforts, vision, focus, capacity or knowledge, ..... But the desires! Pains continue.But he acquires by his vision, capacity, a decent quantum of good karmas to his credit- as past karmas do not haunt him badly. 7 RUNNING AND LAUGHING But efforts and karma have their own positive temporary results too. Focus, desire, destiny, efforts, grace of God makes him rich in conduct and wisdom, and happiness of worldly achievements start coming to him as naturally as after night day comes. He enjoys labour. And goes after death to heaven which in this story has been described as " AND HAVING GONE TO A COOL FOREST OF PLAINTAIN TREES " 8 DEPARTING FROM THAT IN A MOMENT, BEATING HIMSELF OFTEN AND RUNNING AWAY , HE AGAIN FELL INTO THE SAME WELL WITH THE HIDDEN MOUTH Worldly pleasures spoil the habit. Most of the good deeds got exchanged in the heavens. From heavens again to the earth, Jeeva is back to square one. Same desires, same habits, same attitude and same hell again ! Because desires continue. Alas ! How a man degrades himself by desiring. Cycle continues of pleasure and pain, heaven and hell, gloom and gaity, ...... And continues, and continues .... And so continue the desires, the attitude towards the world, the likings, the dislikings, the connection with the body, with mind, with ego, with intellect because Jeeva never leaves the shelter of subtle body and causal body even in heavens or in hell- he cannot do so there, he can only do so in human life, because he acquired them in human life only at the first time !! Any views Shashikalaji ? Jai Shree Krishna. VYAS N B ------------------------- Jai Hanuman Having been caught in the circle of pleasure and pain and having complete reliance on ever changing mind and intellect and having not been able to distinguish the self with the ego - the Jeeva suffers immense pains and only pains arising out of desires. The mind keeps cheating Jeeva continuously both in temporary pleasures and permanent pain. Mind makes Jeeva believe that pleasure is generated by " fulfillment of desires " - in which effort mind was on the driver's seat. It is cheating in fact ! In reality, the " fulfillment of desires " do not bring pleasure to Jeeva , the giving up of desire by the mind , brings relative pleasure !! You get pleasure because the desire is no more! For example, we desire getting say 10000 dollars, and we get it. We get pleased. Now the pleasure is not because we got 10000 dollars, but because there is no pain of desire. Giving up of desire has generated pleasure by operation of law stated in BG 12:12 ! Had receipt of dollars generated happiness we would not have felt sorrow till money remained in tact with us!! We get cheated by the mind, and there arise instantly more desires !! What a Maya !! Evil is dead upon fulfillment of desire but gets awakened by more desires! We never learn from our mistakes, Jee! In happiness, as well as in sorrow,mind cheats us. But who in fact is suffering? Certainly not the mental equipment being inert itself. It is Jeeva , we ourselves suffer! What is our fault? We think our ego, mind, intellect to be " me/mine " ! They continue always, however, neither " you " nor " yours " !! Always ! They are different altogether by nature wise, element wise, every wise !!! They belong to the world, you belong to the God ! When defeat/failure comes , " your " mind/intellect/ego shamelessly suggest to you that ....... " It happens " . They will pamper you by telling that either the God was responsible for failure, or the time, or kaliyuga, or world or that person/this circumstance/ that happenning/ this incidence ....... Or destiny/fate/luck is responsible ! We , mind/intellect/ego , are not responsible Mr Self ! ( So you sometimes say " I was right but the time/luck was bad " ) ! But do your mind/intellect/ego ever say so when you succeed ? No ! They then say " me " " me " - you also join the chorus - " my mind " , " my vision " , " my capacity " , " my intelligence " , " me .... me ..... mine .... mine " , " I " , " I did it " ..... " Me mine me " ...... Non sense !! What a cheating Jee ? What a treachery, Jee ? What an illusion, Dear Sadhaks ?. How shabbily you mind, intellect, ego treat you, Dear ? Are they worth being proud of ? How easily they convert you from " sahaj sukhrasi " , avinashi ( imperishable and naturally blissful) , part of God, and a Master to a deficient, ever sorrowful , a slave and a simpleton, a stupid, a damn fool !! This is Maya , Jee ! Namaste Jee Jee Jee Shashikala ---------------------------- GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: 1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify their doubts related to Gitaji shalokas. Therefore, responses which further clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be posted. 2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to substantiate your response. 3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas 4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting sadhaka's time. 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only. 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other organizations. 7. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone number, address etc. 8. Please do not address the response to a particular individual since the message is going to the entire group. 9. Due to the large readership, all responses may not be posted. 10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if content is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the group. 11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use to Sanskrit words only, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit bracketed wherever possible. MODERATOR Ram Ram ------------------------ Post message: Subscribe: - Un: - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 31, 2008 Report Share Posted October 31, 2008 Loving Divine, Pranam. In the following email I read... " But who in fact is suffering? Certainly not the mental equipment being inert itself. It is Jeeva , we ourselves suffer... " I have a question - can jeeva, being an atom of pramaatma, can ever suffer? Mind, body, intellect, being inert, can any of them suffer? Then truly, who is suffering? humble regards, always at Thy Holy Feet --------------------------- NEW POSTING Jai Hanuman Gita is very clear Jee ! It is only " Purushah prakritoshthohi bhunkte prakratijaan gunan " ( BG 13:21) – The Purusha ( The pure soul) when it is postioned in Nature ( i.e. When it has become Jeeva – Read BG 7:5)-, suffers/enjoys the pleasures and pains. Hence answer is Jeeva ! It is Jeeva who presumes that I am Doer ( BG 3:27) . It is a law that only " doer " – suffers ! The moment Jeeva leaves the shelter of " prakriti " , he ceases to be Jeeva and he ceases to suffer, having gone back to its original position of " Chetan, Amal, Sahajsukhraashi " ( Sentient, faultless and naturally blissful). He is neither doing nor is tainted at any point of time. It is only " assumption " that " I am doer " makes him " feel " pleasures and pains. Thus it is PURUSHA in pure form which is fragment of Lord. Same Purusha when he " adopts the world " is called Jeeva. It is that Jeeva which suffers. ( BG 13:20). Jeeva thus has two parts. One Chetan (sentient, ray of Paramatma) , and Two – inert part (jad) due to association with inert or due to presumption that I am inert- I am this body/mind etc. These two parts combinedly are called Jeeva. The question of mental equipment ( Chitta- consisting of Mind, Intellect and Ego) and body suffering does not arise at all, because the are “inert” and because they do not exist at any point of time ( BG 2:16). When the “sentient” element viz Purusha gives respect to them, then only they become alive. The truth/stability of sentient provides support/truth/stability to inert elements like ego, mind, intellect , body etc. In themselves, they are dust. Therefore the moment sentient part leaves the body, it becomes what it actually is- INERT. To understand it practically, you can equate mind/body/ego/intellect with a wire and individual soul with an electricity. When electricity is flowing, then only the wire activates. If there is no electricity , then there is no current, the body becomes as good as dead wire! If there is no support of sentient soul to the body, then it is as good as dead . Hence the question of mind suffering does not arise. This answers also Sadhanaji’s Question also. Hope this clarifies Jee. There are many ways in which the aforesaid can be explained and grasped. Next time, I will explain it by another method. Basically, it should be understood that JEEVA is distinct from PURE SOUL/ PARA PRAKRITI/ PURUSHA . It is only when pure soul " connects " with inert nature that it is called Jeeva. It is only because of this connection of soul with the world that results in your feeling pains and pleasures. Jee Jee Jee Shashikala -------------------------------- PRIOR POSTING Hari Om, The sufferer is the 'ego' identified with the mind equipment, will be released when identified continuously with the Brahman , the Light that lights even the ego. M.Nagaraju. -------------------------- Hari Om An excellent question indeed! Questions like this in fact help a sadhak gathering momentum. I shall have to really gather more from Taat Shree's pravachans ( discourses of Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj). I will come back. This question haunted me too for a long time, because of 2 apparantly contradictory verses in the same 13th Chapter of Gitaji - 13:20 and. 13:29 . In the meantime, please note that as a law only " Karta " (doer) suffers ! The doer can't be mind/intellect/body because they are " inert " / they are " non existent " (BG 2:16) . Karta can't be SELF ( pure self) because for pure soul Gita at many places confirms that it can't be doer ( One such verse is 13:31) - na karoti na lipyate- neither does nor gets attached ! So who suffers ? Machine called mind certainly does not ! Pure soul certainly does not ! Who remained then - Jeeva ! Who else ? Jeeva. One who believes that " I am the doer " ! One who " adopts the world " ( BG 7:5) ! Of course, there is a distinction between " pure individual soul " and " Jeeva " - the latter term is in respect of " embodied soul " - the former only, however since it " adopts the world " (BG 7:5) it is called Jeeva ! " JEEVA BHUTAM MAHABAHO YAYEDAM DHARYATE JAGAT " (BG 7:5) Mike ! What do you say Sir? Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ------------------------- Jai Shri Krishna! Who is Suffering ? Whoever has raised this question has really touched a deep thought provoking issue. Chapter 13 of Bhagavad Gita deals with this in exclusive detail. Human body contains 23 tathwaas and Athma. The 5 basic elements, 5 Organs of Knowledge, 5 Organs of Action, 5 Tanmaatraas, ego, intellect and mind make the 23. These 23 coming under the spell of the 3 gunaas of Maaya, experience the attributes of the body, i.e., desire, aversion, pleasure, pain, consciousness, firmness. Combined these are known as Kshetra. The individual Soul is the Kshetrajna. Wisdom or Knowledge is awareness of Kshetra and Kshetrajna. Soul is essentially the Paramaathman existing within the human being as Jivaathman and witnessing the play within the Kshetra illuminating it! Now go to Shloka 32, which puts the cap to this teaching: " As the all pervading ether is not tainted by the reason of its subtlety, so seated every where in the body, the Self is not affected by the attributes of the body due to Its attributeless character. " The Soul is neither the Kartha (Doer) nor the Bhoktha (Enjoyer). This is not abstract theory. When Sri Ramana Maharishi had to be operated upon for a tumour, he refused anesthesia, for he said " the pain will be experienced by the body, not me! " When King Janaka was told that his capital city Mithila was on fire, he asked " what about that for me? " Regards. Prof Ramanujam --------------------------- Dear Sadaks, Whole body suffers as one thinks that body and soul are 2 differant. Mind suffers due to unstability. Intellect suffers when doing wrong action against it. But all these do not suffer when one attains divinity. Ex: Samarpa Ramadoss fever. Ramana Rishi tumour on leg. Hanuman tail when troched. Ramakrishna Parama Hamsa with throat cancer. Jada Bharatha head was to be slained, but his face looked like just flowered lotus says Srimath Bagavath. Kunthi asked Boon with Bagavan to give her more sufferings as it sent divine thoughts on Bagavan. Many more can be said. But for lay man sufferings are felt, as he does not know what is inert. Very clear in BG that Jeeva is a wittness to all cause and effect. But what stands between Jeeva and Paramathuma is desires. BG says Kama Yeshu, Krodha Yeshu Etc Script say even desiring for Mukthi is not Good. Matha Uma Maheswari saw Samba the son of Sri Krishna and said to Bagavan Shiva, " How beautiful Samba looks " . Samba was her son Sri Muruga later. King Bali daughter looking at Vamana deeply thought that Vamana looks great to be her child. A little later when Bali was sent to Patala by Vamana, She thought deeply that a child of that nature should be breast fed with poison. She was Poothana during Sri Krishna Avathar, gave milk and got herself killed but went to Vaikunt. Fire dharma is to burn anything. Bagavan Dharma is take anyone to HIS abode whether he remains in enimity or bakthi. Naradha Bakthi Sustra says, Bagavan gives mukthi to the one always abusing HIM. The theme is that Anniyachitayayome by what ever means. In abusing and having krodh against Bagavan the thoughts are deeper than bakthi. In bakthi may be sometimes one forgets. But thoughts against Bagavan are so strong that even in sleep one trembles fearing Bagavan. B.Sathyanarayan -------------------------- Dear Sadhak/Sadhika, This is a wonderful group of real seekers.Can I ask you something ? Our body is made up of Jad tatva like water, fire, earth, akaash, and air. These elements donot feel pain. And as Gitaji says soul also does not feel pain too. Then who always complain that " I am suffering ? " or " I have pain " etc ??? Who is that sufferer ??? It could not be anyone else other then our MIND ?Am I right ? What is the connection between our mind and jeevatma ? Sorry to ask so many questions in one e-mail.... Please share yr knowledge With lots of love, A sadhika Sadhana Karigar --------------------------- Respected Sadhakas, I would like to know that besides the .1 % of enlightened Krishna conscious souls who seem to be content, the rest are always suffering.You can say that it is because of their desires,but I ask why and where was the need to create all this disease,old age,death for beings ,why would a just God just sit back and see so many people keep falling in the trap of his very own maya and ultimately die. Why did Lord Krishna have to do this ,to create the world just because he so desired,didnt he know that we were going to suffer. I have heard that he did not intend,its just our ignorance,but that ignorance is common to 99.9% souls,didnt he know that would be the case. I know that I am short of understanding but I cant love God when I see old people,when I see disease and when I realize that I have to go through death,and when I realize that I am in a trap in which there is no escape. Regards Vishal SRK ------------- PRIOR POSTING On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 11:25 PM, sadhak_insight <sadhak_insight wrote: jai latiyal IN ENGLISH: In this world, what is the greatest wonderment / astonishment of all? What does Gita say about it? IN HINDI: Duniya ka sab se badha aaschariya kya hein. Is per, Gita kaa kyaa abhipraay hai? [shivkumar naravat] ------------------------- NEW POSTING Hari Om Jeeva, like a traveller is never at peace, till destination is reached. Having spent considerable time in the hell, 6 THEN GETTING UP FROM THE WELL IN DUE TIME. He went to the hell with his subtle body viz with his " svabhav " - habits, individual nature , his attitude towards the world. He comes back improved but the old " svabhav " is hard to be conquered, can be substantially conquered only in human life. In the hell majority of past deeds get redeemed. Now he shall have lesser obstacles of destiny. HE ENTERED THE THORNY FOREST , THEN AGAIN DEPARTING AND BEATING HIMSELF OFTEN, Again, in the fresh human life, he could not leave desires. He still makes efforts, toils hard, he comes back purer from hell , but decides to run, to chase, to show, to follow to compete, to prove, to establish, to set trends.... To get something, to do something, to know something. He makes more efforts in a focussed manner, to get worldly things. He tolerates pains in the hope of more and more worldly pleasures. But all worldly . He however forgets that the real cause of his pain , is not lack of efforts, vision, focus, capacity or knowledge, ..... But the desires! Pains continue.But he acquires by his vision, capacity, a decent quantum of good karmas to his credit- as past karmas do not haunt him badly. 7 RUNNING AND LAUGHING But efforts and karma have their own positive temporary results too. Focus, desire, destiny, efforts, grace of God makes him rich in conduct and wisdom, and happiness of worldly achievements start coming to him as naturally as after night day comes. He enjoys labour. And goes after death to heaven which in this story has been described as " AND HAVING GONE TO A COOL FOREST OF PLAINTAIN TREES " 8 DEPARTING FROM THAT IN A MOMENT, BEATING HIMSELF OFTEN AND RUNNING AWAY , HE AGAIN FELL INTO THE SAME WELL WITH THE HIDDEN MOUTH Worldly pleasures spoil the habit. Most of the good deeds got exchanged in the heavens. From heavens again to the earth, Jeeva is back to square one. Same desires, same habits, same attitude and same hell again ! Because desires continue. Alas ! How a man degrades himself by desiring. Cycle continues of pleasure and pain, heaven and hell, gloom and gaity, ...... And continues, and continues .... And so continue the desires, the attitude towards the world, the likings, the dislikings, the connection with the body, with mind, with ego, with intellect because Jeeva never leaves the shelter of subtle body and causal body even in heavens or in hell- he cannot do so there, he can only do so in human life, because he acquired them in human life only at the first time !! Any views Shashikalaji ? Jai Shree Krishna. VYAS N B ------------------------- Jai Hanuman Having been caught in the circle of pleasure and pain and having complete reliance on ever changing mind and intellect and having not been able to distinguish the self with the ego - the Jeeva suffers immense pains and only pains arising out of desires. The mind keeps cheating Jeeva continuously both in temporary pleasures and permanent pain. Mind makes Jeeva believe that pleasure is generated by " fulfillment of desires " - in which effort mind was on the driver's seat. It is cheating in fact ! In reality, the " fulfillment of desires " do not bring pleasure to Jeeva , the giving up of desire by the mind , brings relative pleasure !! You get pleasure because the desire is no more! For example, we desire getting say 10000 dollars, and we get it. We get pleased. Now the pleasure is not because we got 10000 dollars, but because there is no pain of desire. Giving up of desire has generated pleasure by operation of law stated in BG 12:12 ! Had receipt of dollars generated happiness we would not have felt sorrow till money remained in tact with us!! We get cheated by the mind, and there arise instantly more desires !! What a Maya !! Evil is dead upon fulfillment of desire but gets awakened by more desires! We never learn from our mistakes, Jee! In happiness, as well as in sorrow,mind cheats us. But who in fact is suffering? Certainly not the mental equipment being inert itself. It is Jeeva , we ourselves suffer! What is our fault? We think our ego, mind, intellect to be " me/mine " ! They continue always, however, neither " you " nor " yours " !! Always ! They are different altogether by nature wise, element wise, every wise !!! They belong to the world, you belong to the God ! When defeat/failure comes , " your " mind/intellect/ego shamelessly suggest to you that ....... " It happens " . They will pamper you by telling that either the God was responsible for failure, or the time, or kaliyuga, or world or that person/this circumstance/ that happenning/ this incidence ....... Or destiny/fate/luck is responsible ! We , mind/intellect/ego , are not responsible Mr Self ! ( So you sometimes say " I was right but the time/luck was bad " ) ! But do your mind/intellect/ego ever say so when you succeed ? No ! They then say " me " " me " - you also join the chorus - " my mind " , " my vision " , " my capacity " , " my intelligence " , " me .... me ..... mine .... mine " , " I " , " I did it " ..... " Me mine me " ...... Non sense !! What a cheating Jee ? What a treachery, Jee ? What an illusion, Dear Sadhaks ?. How shabbily you mind, intellect, ego treat you, Dear ? Are they worth being proud of ? How easily they convert you from " sahaj sukhrasi " , avinashi ( imperishable and naturally blissful) , part of God, and a Master to a deficient, ever sorrowful , a slave and a simpleton, a stupid, a damn fool !! This is Maya , Jee ! Namaste Jee Jee Jee Shashikala ---------------------------- GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: 1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify their doubts related to Gitaji shalokas. Therefore, responses which further clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be posted. 2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to substantiate your response. 3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas 4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting sadhaka's time. 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only. 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other organizations. 7. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone number, address etc. 8. Please do not address the response to a particular individual since the message is going to the entire group. 9. Due to the large readership, all responses may not be posted. 10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if content is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the group. 11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use to Sanskrit words only, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit bracketed wherever possible. MODERATOR Ram Ram ------------------------ Post message: Subscribe: - Un: - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 1, 2008 Report Share Posted November 1, 2008 Loving Divine, Pranam. In the following email I read... " But who in fact is suffering? Certainly not the mental equipment being inert itself. It is Jeeva , we ourselves suffer... " I have a question - can jeeva, being an atom of pramaatma, can ever suffer? Mind, body, intellect, being inert, can any of them suffer? Then truly, who is suffering? humble regards, always at Thy Holy Feet --------------------------- NEW POSTING Dear Sadhakas, Namaste! Just as ONE Sun shines and lights all objects upon reflections, the Atman which is ONE Being, shines all beings by reflecting from within and without. Jeeva is said to be one such reflection, who identifies with body, resulting in a sense of separate appearance believed to be true. This reflection being of Atman has power, though limited, to think itself as independent entity-Jeeva, endowed with Ichha-shakti(power to desire), Gyan-shakti(power to know- consciousness), and Kria-shakti(power to act). This makes Jeeva the doer and enjoyer! Jeeva is Brahman, says Upanishadas, but due to ignorance of self imposed limitations(body- mind), it acts as if it is limited entity, rather than limitless Atman-Consciousness. Suffering is inherent/intrinsic to being limited, part, feeling of lack, as is against the Reality of Fullness of Being lacking nothing! Experientially, suffering(pain and pleasure) itself is Jeeva and Jeeva is this ignorance, they are not three entities, just one experience. We experience pains and pleasures only we don't experience ignorance, or jeevahood! So we end up conceptualizing the experience as due to ignorance, ignorant being is the Jeeva, for communicating purpose, good reason. Thus we can see suffering is on the part of ignorant, non-existing entity considering whatever happens to body-mind-sense complex is happening to him/her. If you will contemplate, you may see, nothing personal ever happens to anyone, because nothing personal exists in the entire cosmos from the Reality point of view which is WHOLE. Then we can say it happens to Jeeva or mind or whatever as convention. It is not that there is no false, or illusion, but to consider false as truth is the ultimate suffering! Jeeva has to know it is not an atom, or part, or limited, but the WHOLENESS Itself which is Paramatman! One can say atom or part, only to feel surrender, humility but ultimately separation existing in mind and nowhere, has to dissolve to end suffering! Namaskar.... Pratap Bhatt -------------------------- -Shree Hari- Brother Vyas you've caught me on the hop, and at the moment I have not a lot spare time, so I will come onto the question of the cuff. I have read several times of people being brutally treated, and they often say they are the observer and felt no pain. In fact I am reading a book by an extraordinary Afro American, who was brutalised by the police again became the observer. It is fully documented that novice Tibetan Buddhist Monks can raise and lower their body core temperature, and surface temperature at will, (I observed a test on TV myself). By simply imagining they had a fire or ice block within. I was once on a train on a stinking hot day, with my beloved wife, we had obtained a seat, but the carriage was like a sardine can, the wife is an asthmatic , and has claustrophobia, I could sense her agitation. I leaned across to her and quietly said, " I am going to that beach, come and join me " , we both closed our eyes and went inwardly to that beach . No claustrophobia no heat. Actually we have been trained to overcome discomfort, and have meditated in appalling conditions. Controlling the mind, if you wish, changing what the machine receives. Maybe something that happened to me , and my reaction may contain the answer to this conundrum. I had been meditating for about forty minutes, and I kept seeing in my mind, a newsreel I thought I had, forgotten about'; a terrible famine in Africa. I kept thinking " Why Father why my God how can you let this happen " . Suddenly I felt absolute love, I was that love, the understanding of that scene changed in my understanding, this experience is beyond my ability to explain. It took me a while to understand that this loving soul was really me. I think what I am saying is, the one that suffers is not any of the above, is Not That. With Respect and Divine Love, Mike Keenor --------------------------- PRIOR POSTING Jai Hanuman Gita is very clear Jee ! It is only " Purushah prakritoshthohi bhunkte prakratijaan gunan " ( BG 13:21) – The Purusha ( The pure soul) when it is postioned in Nature ( i.e. When it has become Jeeva – Read BG 7:5)-, suffers/enjoys the pleasures and pains. Hence answer is Jeeva ! It is Jeeva who presumes that I am Doer ( BG 3:27) . It is a law that only " doer " – suffers ! The moment Jeeva leaves the shelter of " prakriti " , he ceases to be Jeeva and he ceases to suffer, having gone back to its original position of " Chetan, Amal, Sahajsukhraashi " ( Sentient, faultless and naturally blissful). He is neither doing nor is tainted at any point of time. It is only " assumption " that " I am doer " makes him " feel " pleasures and pains. Thus it is PURUSHA in pure form which is fragment of Lord. Same Purusha when he " adopts the world " is called Jeeva. It is that Jeeva which suffers. ( BG 13:20). Jeeva thus has two parts. One Chetan (sentient, ray of Paramatma) , and Two – inert part (jad) due to association with inert or due to presumption that I am inert- I am this body/mind etc. These two parts combinedly are called Jeeva. The question of mental equipment ( Chitta- consisting of Mind, Intellect and Ego) and body suffering does not arise at all, because the are " inert " and because they do not exist at any point of time ( BG 2:16). When the " sentient " element viz Purusha gives respect to them, then only they become alive. The truth/stability of sentient provides support/truth/stability to inert elements like ego, mind, intellect , body etc. In themselves, they are dust. Therefore the moment sentient part leaves the body, it becomes what it actually is- INERT. To understand it practically, you can equate mind/body/ego/intellect with a wire and individual soul with an electricity. When electricity is flowing, then only the wire activates. If there is no electricity , then there is no current, the body becomes as good as dead wire! If there is no support of sentient soul to the body, then it is as good as dead . Hence the question of mind suffering does not arise. This answers also Sadhanaji's Question also. Hope this clarifies Jee. There are many ways in which the aforesaid can be explained and grasped. Next time, I will explain it by another method. Basically, it should be understood that JEEVA is distinct from PURE SOUL/ PARA PRAKRITI/ PURUSHA . It is only when pure soul " connects " with inert nature that it is called Jeeva. It is only because of this connection of soul with the world that results in your feeling pains and pleasures. Jee Jee Jee Shashikala -------------------------------- PRIOR POSTING Hari Om, The sufferer is the 'ego' identified with the mind equipment, will be released when identified continuously with the Brahman , the Light that lights even the ego. M.Nagaraju. -------------------------- Hari Om An excellent question indeed! Questions like this in fact help a sadhak gathering momentum. I shall have to really gather more from Taat Shree's pravachans ( discourses of Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj). I will come back. This question haunted me too for a long time, because of 2 apparantly contradictory verses in the same 13th Chapter of Gitaji - 13:20 and. 13:29 . In the meantime, please note that as a law only " Karta " (doer) suffers ! The doer can't be mind/intellect/body because they are " inert " / they are " non existent " (BG 2:16) . Karta can't be SELF ( pure self) because for pure soul Gita at many places confirms that it can't be doer ( One such verse is 13:31) - na karoti na lipyate- neither does nor gets attached ! So who suffers ? Machine called mind certainly does not ! Pure soul certainly does not ! Who remained then - Jeeva ! Who else ? Jeeva. One who believes that " I am the doer " ! One who " adopts the world " ( BG 7:5) ! Of course, there is a distinction between " pure individual soul " and " Jeeva " - the latter term is in respect of " embodied soul " - the former only, however since it " adopts the world " (BG 7:5) it is called Jeeva ! " JEEVA BHUTAM MAHABAHO YAYEDAM DHARYATE JAGAT " (BG 7:5) Mike ! What do you say Sir? Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ------------------------- Jai Shri Krishna! Who is Suffering ? Whoever has raised this question has really touched a deep thought provoking issue. Chapter 13 of Bhagavad Gita deals with this in exclusive detail. Human body contains 23 tathwaas and Athma. The 5 basic elements, 5 Organs of Knowledge, 5 Organs of Action, 5 Tanmaatraas, ego, intellect and mind make the 23. These 23 coming under the spell of the 3 gunaas of Maaya, experience the attributes of the body, i.e., desire, aversion, pleasure, pain, consciousness, firmness. Combined these are known as Kshetra. The individual Soul is the Kshetrajna. Wisdom or Knowledge is awareness of Kshetra and Kshetrajna. Soul is essentially the Paramaathman existing within the human being as Jivaathman and witnessing the play within the Kshetra illuminating it! Now go to Shloka 32, which puts the cap to this teaching: " As the all pervading ether is not tainted by the reason of its subtlety, so seated every where in the body, the Self is not affected by the attributes of the body due to Its attributeless character. " The Soul is neither the Kartha (Doer) nor the Bhoktha (Enjoyer). This is not abstract theory. When Sri Ramana Maharishi had to be operated upon for a tumour, he refused anesthesia, for he said " the pain will be experienced by the body, not me! " When King Janaka was told that his capital city Mithila was on fire, he asked " what about that for me? " Regards. Prof Ramanujam --------------------------- Dear Sadaks, Whole body suffers as one thinks that body and soul are 2 differant. Mind suffers due to unstability. Intellect suffers when doing wrong action against it. But all these do not suffer when one attains divinity. Ex: Samarpa Ramadoss fever. Ramana Rishi tumour on leg. Hanuman tail when troched. Ramakrishna Parama Hamsa with throat cancer. Jada Bharatha head was to be slained, but his face looked like just flowered lotus says Srimath Bagavath. Kunthi asked Boon with Bagavan to give her more sufferings as it sent divine thoughts on Bagavan. Many more can be said. But for lay man sufferings are felt, as he does not know what is inert. Very clear in BG that Jeeva is a wittness to all cause and effect. But what stands between Jeeva and Paramathuma is desires. BG says Kama Yeshu, Krodha Yeshu Etc Script say even desiring for Mukthi is not Good. Matha Uma Maheswari saw Samba the son of Sri Krishna and said to Bagavan Shiva, " How beautiful Samba looks " . Samba was her son Sri Muruga later. King Bali daughter looking at Vamana deeply thought that Vamana looks great to be her child. A little later when Bali was sent to Patala by Vamana, She thought deeply that a child of that nature should be breast fed with poison. She was Poothana during Sri Krishna Avathar, gave milk and got herself killed but went to Vaikunt. Fire dharma is to burn anything. Bagavan Dharma is take anyone to HIS abode whether he remains in enimity or bakthi. Naradha Bakthi Sustra says, Bagavan gives mukthi to the one always abusing HIM. The theme is that Anniyachitayayome by what ever means. In abusing and having krodh against Bagavan the thoughts are deeper than bakthi. In bakthi may be sometimes one forgets. But thoughts against Bagavan are so strong that even in sleep one trembles fearing Bagavan. B.Sathyanarayan -------------------------- Dear Sadhak/Sadhika, This is a wonderful group of real seekers.Can I ask you something ? Our body is made up of Jad tatva like water, fire, earth, akaash, and air. These elements donot feel pain. And as Gitaji says soul also does not feel pain too. Then who always complain that " I am suffering ? " or " I have pain " etc ??? Who is that sufferer ??? It could not be anyone else other then our MIND ?Am I right ? What is the connection between our mind and jeevatma ? Sorry to ask so many questions in one e-mail.... Please share yr knowledge With lots of love, A sadhika Sadhana Karigar --------------------------- Respected Sadhakas, I would like to know that besides the .1 % of enlightened Krishna conscious souls who seem to be content, the rest are always suffering.You can say that it is because of their desires,but I ask why and where was the need to create all this disease,old age,death for beings ,why would a just God just sit back and see so many people keep falling in the trap of his very own maya and ultimately die. Why did Lord Krishna have to do this ,to create the world just because he so desired,didnt he know that we were going to suffer. I have heard that he did not intend,its just our ignorance,but that ignorance is common to 99.9% souls,didnt he know that would be the case. I know that I am short of understanding but I cant love God when I see old people,when I see disease and when I realize that I have to go through death,and when I realize that I am in a trap in which there is no escape. Regards Vishal SRK ------------- PRIOR POSTING On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 11:25 PM, sadhak_insight <sadhak_insight wrote: jai latiyal IN ENGLISH: In this world, what is the greatest wonderment / astonishment of all? What does Gita say about it? IN HINDI: Duniya ka sab se badha aaschariya kya hein. Is per, Gita kaa kyaa abhipraay hai? [shivkumar naravat] ------------------------- NEW POSTING Hari Om Jeeva, like a traveller is never at peace, till destination is reached. Having spent considerable time in the hell, 6 THEN GETTING UP FROM THE WELL IN DUE TIME. He went to the hell with his subtle body viz with his " svabhav " - habits, individual nature , his attitude towards the world. He comes back improved but the old " svabhav " is hard to be conquered, can be substantially conquered only in human life. In the hell majority of past deeds get redeemed. Now he shall have lesser obstacles of destiny. HE ENTERED THE THORNY FOREST , THEN AGAIN DEPARTING AND BEATING HIMSELF OFTEN, Again, in the fresh human life, he could not leave desires. He still makes efforts, toils hard, he comes back purer from hell , but decides to run, to chase, to show, to follow to compete, to prove, to establish, to set trends.... To get something, to do something, to know something. He makes more efforts in a focussed manner, to get worldly things. He tolerates pains in the hope of more and more worldly pleasures. But all worldly . He however forgets that the real cause of his pain , is not lack of efforts, vision, focus, capacity or knowledge, ..... But the desires! Pains continue.But he acquires by his vision, capacity, a decent quantum of good karmas to his credit- as past karmas do not haunt him badly. 7 RUNNING AND LAUGHING But efforts and karma have their own positive temporary results too. Focus, desire, destiny, efforts, grace of God makes him rich in conduct and wisdom, and happiness of worldly achievements start coming to him as naturally as after night day comes. He enjoys labour. And goes after death to heaven which in this story has been described as " AND HAVING GONE TO A COOL FOREST OF PLAINTAIN TREES " 8 DEPARTING FROM THAT IN A MOMENT, BEATING HIMSELF OFTEN AND RUNNING AWAY , HE AGAIN FELL INTO THE SAME WELL WITH THE HIDDEN MOUTH Worldly pleasures spoil the habit. Most of the good deeds got exchanged in the heavens. From heavens again to the earth, Jeeva is back to square one. Same desires, same habits, same attitude and same hell again ! Because desires continue. Alas ! How a man degrades himself by desiring. Cycle continues of pleasure and pain, heaven and hell, gloom and gaity, ...... And continues, and continues .... And so continue the desires, the attitude towards the world, the likings, the dislikings, the connection with the body, with mind, with ego, with intellect because Jeeva never leaves the shelter of subtle body and causal body even in heavens or in hell- he cannot do so there, he can only do so in human life, because he acquired them in human life only at the first time !! Any views Shashikalaji ? Jai Shree Krishna. VYAS N B ------------------------- Jai Hanuman Having been caught in the circle of pleasure and pain and having complete reliance on ever changing mind and intellect and having not been able to distinguish the self with the ego - the Jeeva suffers immense pains and only pains arising out of desires. The mind keeps cheating Jeeva continuously both in temporary pleasures and permanent pain. Mind makes Jeeva believe that pleasure is generated by " fulfillment of desires " - in which effort mind was on the driver's seat. It is cheating in fact ! In reality, the " fulfillment of desires " do not bring pleasure to Jeeva , the giving up of desire by the mind , brings relative pleasure !! You get pleasure because the desire is no more! For example, we desire getting say 10000 dollars, and we get it. We get pleased. Now the pleasure is not because we got 10000 dollars, but because there is no pain of desire. Giving up of desire has generated pleasure by operation of law stated in BG 12:12 ! Had receipt of dollars generated happiness we would not have felt sorrow till money remained in tact with us!! We get cheated by the mind, and there arise instantly more desires !! What a Maya !! Evil is dead upon fulfillment of desire but gets awakened by more desires! We never learn from our mistakes, Jee! In happiness, as well as in sorrow,mind cheats us. But who in fact is suffering? Certainly not the mental equipment being inert itself. It is Jeeva , we ourselves suffer! What is our fault? We think our ego, mind, intellect to be " me/mine " ! They continue always, however, neither " you " nor " yours " !! Always ! They are different altogether by nature wise, element wise, every wise !!! They belong to the world, you belong to the God ! When defeat/failure comes , " your " mind/intellect/ego shamelessly suggest to you that ....... " It happens " . They will pamper you by telling that either the God was responsible for failure, or the time, or kaliyuga, or world or that person/this circumstance/ that happenning/ this incidence ....... Or destiny/fate/luck is responsible ! We , mind/intellect/ego , are not responsible Mr Self ! ( So you sometimes say " I was right but the time/luck was bad " ) ! But do your mind/intellect/ego ever say so when you succeed ? No ! They then say " me " " me " - you also join the chorus - " my mind " , " my vision " , " my capacity " , " my intelligence " , " me .... me ..... mine .... mine " , " I " , " I did it " ..... " Me mine me " ...... Non sense !! What a cheating Jee ? What a treachery, Jee ? What an illusion, Dear Sadhaks ?. How shabbily you mind, intellect, ego treat you, Dear ? Are they worth being proud of ? How easily they convert you from " sahaj sukhrasi " , avinashi ( imperishable and naturally blissful) , part of God, and a Master to a deficient, ever sorrowful , a slave and a simpleton, a stupid, a damn fool !! This is Maya , Jee ! Namaste Jee Jee Jee Shashikala ---------------------------- GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: 1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify their doubts related to Gitaji shalokas. Therefore, responses which further clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be posted. 2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to substantiate your response. 3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas 4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting sadhaka's time. 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only. 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other organizations. 7. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone number, address etc. 8. Please do not address the response to a particular individual since the message is going to the entire group. 9. Due to the large readership, all responses may not be posted. 10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if content is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the group. 11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use to Sanskrit words only, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit bracketed wherever possible. MODERATOR Ram Ram ------------------------ Post message: Subscribe: - Un: - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 3, 2008 Report Share Posted November 3, 2008 Loving Divine, Pranam. In the following email I read... " But who in fact is suffering? Certainly not the mental equipment being inert itself. It is Jeeva , we ourselves suffer... " I have a question - can jeeva, being an atom of pramaatma, can ever suffer? Mind, body, intellect, being inert, can any of them suffer? Then truly, who is suffering? humble regards, always at Thy Holy Feet --------------------------- NEW POSTING Dear Sadhakas, Namaste! I want to build on my previous post below, so both together can answer Sadhanaji's questions and also point explicitly as to " who is suffering " ? This has the support of Swamiji's statement in his book " Sadhan Aur Sadhya " in Hindi*. Actually 'No one " really suffers in all one's suffering. In otherwords, there is an experience/consciousness/awareness of suffering taking place within, but there is no one, no thing, no entity of any kind that suffers. We just say Jeeva, or Mind or " I " am suffering. Can you see clearly " suffering experience " is taken/named as Jeeva, " I " or mind? Let us see further! We experience wisdom or gyan and then we say the person is wise or Gyani, but we don't ever experience being gyani or wise. We make adjectives/conceptualizations to communicate the experience. It is only relative to wisdom one is Gyani. Similarly there is enlightenment but no enlightened person, there is ignorance, but no ignorant, and so on and on. We can never find an entity in the entire cosmos! Even if we ask " Who am I " , the answer " I am Atman " is not experiential, so to speak. Experientially it is always " Self-evident Cosncious Existence " which we call Atman! This also answers Sadhanji's question " who is that sufferer???....., implying it couldn't be anyone other than our mind " . In this context, mind, Jivatma and " me " can be said to be same as both are concepts to describe the experiences arising out of ignorance of identification with body-mind indiduality. *Page 9 footnote explains that Self(Swayam) is Witness(Sakshi) w.r.t witnessed(sakshya) but in reality It is nameless experience (anubhavrupa). Namaskar...... Pratap Bhatt --------------------------- Jai Hanuman Mike Bhaiyya ! Great Jee ! Swamiji also, in His discourses and books, gave many examples of the type , you experienced and narrated, so selflessly, for benefit of all sadhaks. Many examples, Brother ! Similar !! I remember in one of the discourses He said that a " sadhu " (a holy man, a colleague of Taat Shree) was bitten by a snake. His body was sufferring . When some follower suggested medical help, he refused. He said. " Pain is not in me. If it reaches " me " , then only I will think about seeking any help " ! Varun Paprunia Bhaiyya can give many such examples from His books/discourses ! (I love his compilation and timely presentation to sadhaks - AS IT IS, Jee) Thanks indeed, Mike Bhaiyya, Jee, for being part of this GT group ! O Child of the Universe !! Namaste Jee Jee Jee Shashikala --------------------------- PRIOR POSTING Dear Sadhakas, Namaste! Just as ONE Sun shines and lights all objects upon reflections, the Atman which is ONE Being, shines all beings by reflecting from within and without. Jeeva is said to be one such reflection, who identifies with body, resulting in a sense of separate appearance believed to be true. This reflection being of Atman has power, though limited, to think itself as independent entity-Jeeva, endowed with Ichha-shakti(power to desire), Gyan-shakti(power to know- consciousness), and Kria-shakti(power to act). This makes Jeeva the doer and enjoyer! Jeeva is Brahman, says Upanishadas, but due to ignorance of self imposed limitations(body- mind), it acts as if it is limited entity, rather than limitless Atman-Consciousness. Suffering is inherent/intrinsic to being limited, part, feeling of lack, as is against the Reality of Fullness of Being lacking nothing! Experientially, suffering(pain and pleasure) itself is Jeeva and Jeeva is this ignorance, they are not three entities, just one experience. We experience pains and pleasures only we don't experience ignorance, or jeevahood! So we end up conceptualizing the experience as due to ignorance, ignorant being is the Jeeva, for communicating purpose, good reason. Thus we can see suffering is on the part of ignorant, non-existing entity considering whatever happens to body-mind-sense complex is happening to him/her. If you will contemplate, you may see, nothing personal ever happens to anyone, because nothing personal exists in the entire cosmos from the Reality point of view which is WHOLE. Then we can say it happens to Jeeva or mind or whatever as convention. It is not that there is no false, or illusion, but to consider false as truth is the ultimate suffering! Jeeva has to know it is not an atom, or part, or limited, but the WHOLENESS Itself which is Paramatman! One can say atom or part, only to feel surrender, humility but ultimately separation existing in mind and nowhere, has to dissolve to end suffering! Namaskar.... Pratap Bhatt -------------------------- -Shree Hari- Brother Vyas you've caught me on the hop, and at the moment I have not a lot spare time, so I will come onto the question of the cuff. I have read several times of people being brutally treated, and they often say they are the observer and felt no pain. In fact I am reading a book by an extraordinary Afro American, who was brutalised by the police again became the observer. It is fully documented that novice Tibetan Buddhist Monks can raise and lower their body core temperature, and surface temperature at will, (I observed a test on TV myself). By simply imagining they had a fire or ice block within. I was once on a train on a stinking hot day, with my beloved wife, we had obtained a seat, but the carriage was like a sardine can, the wife is an asthmatic , and has claustrophobia, I could sense her agitation. I leaned across to her and quietly said, " I am going to that beach, come and join me " , we both closed our eyes and went inwardly to that beach . No claustrophobia no heat. Actually we have been trained to overcome discomfort, and have meditated in appalling conditions. Controlling the mind, if you wish, changing what the machine receives. Maybe something that happened to me , and my reaction may contain the answer to this conundrum. I had been meditating for about forty minutes, and I kept seeing in my mind, a newsreel I thought I had, forgotten about'; a terrible famine in Africa. I kept thinking " Why Father why my God how can you let this happen " . Suddenly I felt absolute love, I was that love, the understanding of that scene changed in my understanding, this experience is beyond my ability to explain. It took me a while to understand that this loving soul was really me. I think what I am saying is, the one that suffers is not any of the above, is Not That. With Respect and Divine Love, Mike Keenor --------------------------- PRIOR POSTING Jai Hanuman Gita is very clear Jee ! It is only " Purushah prakritoshthohi bhunkte prakratijaan gunan " ( BG 13:21) – The Purusha ( The pure soul) when it is postioned in Nature ( i.e. When it has become Jeeva – Read BG 7:5)-, suffers/enjoys the pleasures and pains. Hence answer is Jeeva ! It is Jeeva who presumes that I am Doer ( BG 3:27) . It is a law that only " doer " – suffers ! The moment Jeeva leaves the shelter of " prakriti " , he ceases to be Jeeva and he ceases to suffer, having gone back to its original position of " Chetan, Amal, Sahajsukhraashi " ( Sentient, faultless and naturally blissful). He is neither doing nor is tainted at any point of time. It is only " assumption " that " I am doer " makes him " feel " pleasures and pains. Thus it is PURUSHA in pure form which is fragment of Lord. Same Purusha when he " adopts the world " is called Jeeva. It is that Jeeva which suffers. ( BG 13:20). Jeeva thus has two parts. One Chetan (sentient, ray of Paramatma) , and Two – inert part (jad) due to association with inert or due to presumption that I am inert- I am this body/mind etc. These two parts combinedly are called Jeeva. The question of mental equipment ( Chitta- consisting of Mind, Intellect and Ego) and body suffering does not arise at all, because the are " inert " and because they do not exist at any point of time ( BG 2:16). When the " sentient " element viz Purusha gives respect to them, then only they become alive. The truth/stability of sentient provides support/truth/stability to inert elements like ego, mind, intellect , body etc. In themselves, they are dust. Therefore the moment sentient part leaves the body, it becomes what it actually is- INERT. To understand it practically, you can equate mind/body/ego/intellect with a wire and individual soul with an electricity. When electricity is flowing, then only the wire activates. If there is no electricity , then there is no current, the body becomes as good as dead wire! If there is no support of sentient soul to the body, then it is as good as dead . Hence the question of mind suffering does not arise. This answers also Sadhanaji's Question also. Hope this clarifies Jee. There are many ways in which the aforesaid can be explained and grasped. Next time, I will explain it by another method. Basically, it should be understood that JEEVA is distinct from PURE SOUL/ PARA PRAKRITI/ PURUSHA . It is only when pure soul " connects " with inert nature that it is called Jeeva. It is only because of this connection of soul with the world that results in your feeling pains and pleasures. Jee Jee Jee Shashikala -------------------------------- PRIOR POSTING Hari Om, The sufferer is the 'ego' identified with the mind equipment, will be released when identified continuously with the Brahman , the Light that lights even the ego. M.Nagaraju. -------------------------- Hari Om An excellent question indeed! Questions like this in fact help a sadhak gathering momentum. I shall have to really gather more from Taat Shree's pravachans ( discourses of Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj). I will come back. This question haunted me too for a long time, because of 2 apparantly contradictory verses in the same 13th Chapter of Gitaji - 13:20 and. 13:29 . In the meantime, please note that as a law only " Karta " (doer) suffers ! The doer can't be mind/intellect/body because they are " inert " / they are " non existent " (BG 2:16) . Karta can't be SELF ( pure self) because for pure soul Gita at many places confirms that it can't be doer ( One such verse is 13:31) - na karoti na lipyate- neither does nor gets attached ! So who suffers ? Machine called mind certainly does not ! Pure soul certainly does not ! Who remained then - Jeeva ! Who else ? Jeeva. One who believes that " I am the doer " ! One who " adopts the world " ( BG 7:5) ! Of course, there is a distinction between " pure individual soul " and " Jeeva " - the latter term is in respect of " embodied soul " - the former only, however since it " adopts the world " (BG 7:5) it is called Jeeva ! " JEEVA BHUTAM MAHABAHO YAYEDAM DHARYATE JAGAT " (BG 7:5) Mike ! What do you say Sir? Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ------------------------- Jai Shri Krishna! Who is Suffering ? Whoever has raised this question has really touched a deep thought provoking issue. Chapter 13 of Bhagavad Gita deals with this in exclusive detail. Human body contains 23 tathwaas and Athma. The 5 basic elements, 5 Organs of Knowledge, 5 Organs of Action, 5 Tanmaatraas, ego, intellect and mind make the 23. These 23 coming under the spell of the 3 gunaas of Maaya, experience the attributes of the body, i.e., desire, aversion, pleasure, pain, consciousness, firmness. Combined these are known as Kshetra. The individual Soul is the Kshetrajna. Wisdom or Knowledge is awareness of Kshetra and Kshetrajna. Soul is essentially the Paramaathman existing within the human being as Jivaathman and witnessing the play within the Kshetra illuminating it! Now go to Shloka 32, which puts the cap to this teaching: " As the all pervading ether is not tainted by the reason of its subtlety, so seated every where in the body, the Self is not affected by the attributes of the body due to Its attributeless character. " The Soul is neither the Kartha (Doer) nor the Bhoktha (Enjoyer). This is not abstract theory. When Sri Ramana Maharishi had to be operated upon for a tumour, he refused anesthesia, for he said " the pain will be experienced by the body, not me! " When King Janaka was told that his capital city Mithila was on fire, he asked " what about that for me? " Regards. Prof Ramanujam --------------------------- Dear Sadaks, Whole body suffers as one thinks that body and soul are 2 differant. Mind suffers due to unstability. Intellect suffers when doing wrong action against it. But all these do not suffer when one attains divinity. Ex: Samarpa Ramadoss fever. Ramana Rishi tumour on leg. Hanuman tail when troched. Ramakrishna Parama Hamsa with throat cancer. Jada Bharatha head was to be slained, but his face looked like just flowered lotus says Srimath Bagavath. Kunthi asked Boon with Bagavan to give her more sufferings as it sent divine thoughts on Bagavan. Many more can be said. But for lay man sufferings are felt, as he does not know what is inert. Very clear in BG that Jeeva is a wittness to all cause and effect. But what stands between Jeeva and Paramathuma is desires. BG says Kama Yeshu, Krodha Yeshu Etc Script say even desiring for Mukthi is not Good. Matha Uma Maheswari saw Samba the son of Sri Krishna and said to Bagavan Shiva, " How beautiful Samba looks " . Samba was her son Sri Muruga later. King Bali daughter looking at Vamana deeply thought that Vamana looks great to be her child. A little later when Bali was sent to Patala by Vamana, She thought deeply that a child of that nature should be breast fed with poison. She was Poothana during Sri Krishna Avathar, gave milk and got herself killed but went to Vaikunt. Fire dharma is to burn anything. Bagavan Dharma is take anyone to HIS abode whether he remains in enimity or bakthi. Naradha Bakthi Sustra says, Bagavan gives mukthi to the one always abusing HIM. The theme is that Anniyachitayayome by what ever means. In abusing and having krodh against Bagavan the thoughts are deeper than bakthi. In bakthi may be sometimes one forgets. But thoughts against Bagavan are so strong that even in sleep one trembles fearing Bagavan. B.Sathyanarayan -------------------------- Dear Sadhak/Sadhika, This is a wonderful group of real seekers.Can I ask you something ? Our body is made up of Jad tatva like water, fire, earth, akaash, and air. These elements donot feel pain. And as Gitaji says soul also does not feel pain too. Then who always complain that " I am suffering ? " or " I have pain " etc ??? Who is that sufferer ??? It could not be anyone else other then our MIND ?Am I right ? What is the connection between our mind and jeevatma ? Sorry to ask so many questions in one e-mail.... Please share yr knowledge With lots of love, A sadhika Sadhana Karigar --------------------------- Respected Sadhakas, I would like to know that besides the .1 % of enlightened Krishna conscious souls who seem to be content, the rest are always suffering.You can say that it is because of their desires,but I ask why and where was the need to create all this disease,old age,death for beings ,why would a just God just sit back and see so many people keep falling in the trap of his very own maya and ultimately die. Why did Lord Krishna have to do this ,to create the world just because he so desired,didnt he know that we were going to suffer. I have heard that he did not intend,its just our ignorance,but that ignorance is common to 99.9% souls,didnt he know that would be the case. I know that I am short of understanding but I cant love God when I see old people,when I see disease and when I realize that I have to go through death,and when I realize that I am in a trap in which there is no escape. Regards Vishal SRK ------------- PRIOR POSTING On Tue, Oct 28, 2008 at 11:25 PM, sadhak_insight <sadhak_insight wrote: jai latiyal IN ENGLISH: In this world, what is the greatest wonderment / astonishment of all? What does Gita say about it? IN HINDI: Duniya ka sab se badha aaschariya kya hein. Is per, Gita kaa kyaa abhipraay hai? [shivkumar naravat] ------------------------- NEW POSTING Hari Om Jeeva, like a traveller is never at peace, till destination is reached. Having spent considerable time in the hell, 6 THEN GETTING UP FROM THE WELL IN DUE TIME. He went to the hell with his subtle body viz with his " svabhav " - habits, individual nature , his attitude towards the world. He comes back improved but the old " svabhav " is hard to be conquered, can be substantially conquered only in human life. In the hell majority of past deeds get redeemed. Now he shall have lesser obstacles of destiny. HE ENTERED THE THORNY FOREST , THEN AGAIN DEPARTING AND BEATING HIMSELF OFTEN, Again, in the fresh human life, he could not leave desires. He still makes efforts, toils hard, he comes back purer from hell , but decides to run, to chase, to show, to follow to compete, to prove, to establish, to set trends.... To get something, to do something, to know something. He makes more efforts in a focussed manner, to get worldly things. He tolerates pains in the hope of more and more worldly pleasures. But all worldly . He however forgets that the real cause of his pain , is not lack of efforts, vision, focus, capacity or knowledge, ..... But the desires! Pains continue.But he acquires by his vision, capacity, a decent quantum of good karmas to his credit- as past karmas do not haunt him badly. 7 RUNNING AND LAUGHING But efforts and karma have their own positive temporary results too. Focus, desire, destiny, efforts, grace of God makes him rich in conduct and wisdom, and happiness of worldly achievements start coming to him as naturally as after night day comes. He enjoys labour. And goes after death to heaven which in this story has been described as " AND HAVING GONE TO A COOL FOREST OF PLAINTAIN TREES " 8 DEPARTING FROM THAT IN A MOMENT, BEATING HIMSELF OFTEN AND RUNNING AWAY , HE AGAIN FELL INTO THE SAME WELL WITH THE HIDDEN MOUTH Worldly pleasures spoil the habit. Most of the good deeds got exchanged in the heavens. From heavens again to the earth, Jeeva is back to square one. Same desires, same habits, same attitude and same hell again ! Because desires continue. Alas ! How a man degrades himself by desiring. Cycle continues of pleasure and pain, heaven and hell, gloom and gaity, ...... And continues, and continues .... And so continue the desires, the attitude towards the world, the likings, the dislikings, the connection with the body, with mind, with ego, with intellect because Jeeva never leaves the shelter of subtle body and causal body even in heavens or in hell- he cannot do so there, he can only do so in human life, because he acquired them in human life only at the first time !! Any views Shashikalaji ? Jai Shree Krishna. VYAS N B ------------------------- Jai Hanuman Having been caught in the circle of pleasure and pain and having complete reliance on ever changing mind and intellect and having not been able to distinguish the self with the ego - the Jeeva suffers immense pains and only pains arising out of desires. The mind keeps cheating Jeeva continuously both in temporary pleasures and permanent pain. Mind makes Jeeva believe that pleasure is generated by " fulfillment of desires " - in which effort mind was on the driver's seat. It is cheating in fact ! In reality, the " fulfillment of desires " do not bring pleasure to Jeeva , the giving up of desire by the mind , brings relative pleasure !! You get pleasure because the desire is no more! For example, we desire getting say 10000 dollars, and we get it. We get pleased. Now the pleasure is not because we got 10000 dollars, but because there is no pain of desire. Giving up of desire has generated pleasure by operation of law stated in BG 12:12 ! Had receipt of dollars generated happiness we would not have felt sorrow till money remained in tact with us!! We get cheated by the mind, and there arise instantly more desires !! What a Maya !! Evil is dead upon fulfillment of desire but gets awakened by more desires! We never learn from our mistakes, Jee! In happiness, as well as in sorrow,mind cheats us. But who in fact is suffering? Certainly not the mental equipment being inert itself. It is Jeeva , we ourselves suffer! What is our fault? We think our ego, mind, intellect to be " me/mine " ! They continue always, however, neither " you " nor " yours " !! Always ! They are different altogether by nature wise, element wise, every wise !!! They belong to the world, you belong to the God ! When defeat/failure comes , " your " mind/intellect/ego shamelessly suggest to you that ....... " It happens " . They will pamper you by telling that either the God was responsible for failure, or the time, or kaliyuga, or world or that person/this circumstance/ that happenning/ this incidence ....... Or destiny/fate/luck is responsible ! We , mind/intellect/ego , are not responsible Mr Self ! ( So you sometimes say " I was right but the time/luck was bad " ) ! But do your mind/intellect/ego ever say so when you succeed ? No ! They then say " me " " me " - you also join the chorus - " my mind " , " my vision " , " my capacity " , " my intelligence " , " me .... me ..... mine .... mine " , " I " , " I did it " ..... " Me mine me " ...... Non sense !! What a cheating Jee ? What a treachery, Jee ? What an illusion, Dear Sadhaks ?. How shabbily you mind, intellect, ego treat you, Dear ? Are they worth being proud of ? How easily they convert you from " sahaj sukhrasi " , avinashi ( imperishable and naturally blissful) , part of God, and a Master to a deficient, ever sorrowful , a slave and a simpleton, a stupid, a damn fool !! This is Maya , Jee ! Namaste Jee Jee Jee Shashikala ---------------------------- GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: 1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify their doubts related to Gitaji shalokas. Therefore, responses which further clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be posted. 2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to substantiate your response. 3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas 4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting sadhaka's time. 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only. 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other organizations. 7. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone number, address etc. 8. Please do not address the response to a particular individual since the message is going to the entire group. 9. Due to the large readership, all responses may not be posted. 10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if content is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the group. 11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use to Sanskrit words only, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit bracketed wherever possible. 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