Guest guest Posted November 3, 2008 Report Share Posted November 3, 2008 -Shree Hari- Something I have pondered upon for a very long time: Mankind is capable of acts of profound love and compassion, and also acts of stupendous evil. The demonic has been equated by people I certainly admire, in a nutshell as being without balance. A Sufi Saint I read about, made the observation that the Shatan was the ego. Sri Krishna, as noted in Gitaji, described what is demonic. My question is; how, when and why , was Evil born. With Respect and Divine Love, Mike Keenor ------------------------------ GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: 1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify their doubts related to Gitaji shalokas. Therefore, responses which further clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be posted. 2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to substantiate your response. 3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas 4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting sadhaka's time. 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only. 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other organizations. 7. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone number, address etc. 8. Please do not address the response to a particular individual since the message is going to the entire group. 9. Due to the large readership, all responses may not be posted. 10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if content is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the group. 11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use to Sanskrit words only, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit bracketed wherever possible. MODERATOR Ram Ram ------------------------ Post message: Subscribe: - Un: - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 4, 2008 Report Share Posted November 4, 2008 -Shree Hari- Something I have pondered upon for a very long time: Mankind is capable of acts of profound love and compassion, and also acts of stupendous evil. The demonic has been equated by people I certainly admire, in a nutshell as being without balance. A Sufi Saint I read about, made the observation that the Shatan was the ego. Sri Krishna, as noted in Gitaji, described what is demonic. My question is; how, when and why , was Evil born. With Respect and Divine Love, Mike Keenor ------------------------------ :Shree Hari: Ram Ram. No use searching for 'how evil was born?', 'when evil was born?' and 'why was evil born?' as Swamiji said,'what is born, will die' and so nothing to find 'how, when, why' of what will not stay. Ram Ram. Sarvottam ------------------------------ Dear Sadhakas, Namaste! Mikeji's question is born of contemplation and I am sure he has his answer too! I see Evil is doing onto " others " that one doesn't want done on him/her. Any relationship, potentially evil or otherwise, is possible only when there is " one " and therefore, necessarily, " other " . As Sufi saint rightly put it Satan was/is the Ego, ego being the notion of " one " , relative only to " other " . This is believing " one " as separate from " other " as individuals. This is why evil actions are possible just as acts of profound love and compassion are possible towards seemingly " others " . If there is only ONE, non-dual(one without a second), no reltionship can exist, ONE feeling Complete in SELF. Separate bodies based on space between them offers no proof of our feeling separations. Minds are conditioned differently also offers no proof either, because in reality they all are ONE Consciousness appearing as many in ignorance, just as Ocean appearing as waves. Thus Ego, being the notion making us believe divided is the root cause of evil. And it is entirely due to ignorance of our True nature of ONENESS, non-dual Consciousness! If we truly, truly let go of this notion and feel, think and act from this underlying Oneness on the plain of surface diversity(world) we cannot do any evil acts! This is how I would answer " how and why " of evil actions. " When did this evil start? " cannot be answered in time frame as Ignorance of one's true nature is beginningless (Upanishadas). This is because upon Realization one knows " there was/is never any ignorance " . If there is knowing of " ignorance " , then, there is one who knows! Practically one can say that the original sin(eating apple) is this individuality! Namaskaras......... Pratap Bhatt ------------------------------ Good and bad reside within everybody. It is upto us to choose. In this Kaliyug one finds more bad people because they are chasing illusions which they feel will make them happy and one up on others. For those who want moksha or liberation from endless deaths and births will only do good karmas so that they will attain moksha earlier. Hari Shanker Deo ------------------------------ Dear Sadaks, Aggynanam (Evil) was born along with Gyana (Knowledge). It is said in Uoanashids and Vedas that Evil`s birth not over Anatha Koti Kalpa Kaalam. Means the bigining not known. It is also said that the creation and (Maha Pralayam) destruction was going on for several times. Bagavan Vishnu told Markandeyan Maha Rishi the following: When Maha Pralayam takes place the water cover the whole earth, the water and earth is swallowed by Pralayagni (The fire one sees in galaxies speard over millions of miles), Pralayagni is swallowed by Pralaya Vaayu (wind one can never dream off), The pralaya Vaayu takes abode in Space, and the whole space in Maha Vishnu. Again the creation starts. This what going on. So the evil comes in along with creation. Evil plays role of taking the creation by 4 yugas to an end. Evil is there in untold actions. In the begining When fire was discovered earth stared polluting, from fire cooking which gave us unnatural food, cooked food gives us aging (Normally Man said to be 12 Ft tall and life span was 300 years as per scientific finding of human body design, one can see today in Musium the sword of kings 6 ft long weighing 20/25 Kg), So man was heafty to carry that weight. Sri Treta Yug (Sri Rama) period it is said that woman gave birth only on completion of 12 months. Now it has come to 9 months. From these actions and food Evil multiplied more and more to greater level. When evil becomes the most the Dharma is destroying. To save that Dharma Bagavan appears as KALKI Avatar. B.Sathyanarayan ------------------------------ GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: 1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify their doubts related to Gitaji shalokas. Therefore, responses which further clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be posted. 2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to substantiate your response. 3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas 4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting sadhaka's time. 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only. 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other organizations. 7. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone number, address etc. 8. Please do not address the response to a particular individual since the message is going to the entire group. 9. Due to the large readership, all responses may not be posted. 10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if content is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the group. 11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use to Sanskrit words only, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit bracketed wherever possible. MODERATOR Ram Ram ------------------------ Post message: Subscribe: - Un: - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 5, 2008 Report Share Posted November 5, 2008 -Shree Hari- Something I have pondered upon for a very long time: Mankind is capable of acts of profound love and compassion, and also acts of stupendous evil. The demonic has been equated by people I certainly admire, in a nutshell as being without balance. A Sufi Saint I read about, made the observation that the Shatan was the ego. Sri Krishna, as noted in Gitaji, described what is demonic. My question is; how, when and why , was Evil born. With Respect and Divine Love, Mike Keenor ------------------------------ PRIOR POSTING :Shree Hari: Ram Ram. No use searching for 'how evil was born?', 'when evil was born?' and 'why was evil born?' as Swamiji said,'what is born, will die' and so nothing to find 'how, when, why' of what will not stay. Ram Ram. Sarvottam -------------------------------- NEW POSTING Shree Hari- Evil starts with the rise of dreaded materialism when we start believing that matter is inert and exploitaing the matter/mother earth as a quarry for our self interest. Those who accept matter with unsuspected vitality like Lord Krishna, Lord Rama, Adi Shankracharya, Guru Nanak and others evil does not enetr in their noble and divine bodies. As soon as materiailism takes over a person, ego, self interest and many other tamasic qualities destroy the noble human qualities. At this stage man becomes ungrateful, fickle, deceitful, cowardly and avercious. Hypocrisy, ambivalent personality and Sychophancy become the dominant characteristics of the person. Many egoistic persons then start commercial spiritualism and become dealers of Hope and divide societies into sects, cults, gurudom and even islands. with regards, Prem Sabhlok ---------------------------- NEW POSTING When we stopped to share our common facilities,resources and honours ,and deny others the virtues of giving rather than taking, did the evil of ego appear and consume the whole humanity so fast and so almost completely. Shiban raina ------------------------------ PRIOR POSTING Dear Sadhakas, Namaste! Mikeji's question is born of contemplation and I am sure he has his answer too! I see Evil is doing onto " others " that one doesn't want done on him/her. Any relationship, potentially evil or otherwise, is possible only when there is " one " and therefore, necessarily, " other " . As Sufi saint rightly put it Satan was/is the Ego, ego being the notion of " one " , relative only to " other " . This is believing " one " as separate from " other " as individuals. This is why evil actions are possible just as acts of profound love and compassion are possible towards seemingly " others " . If there is only ONE, non-dual(one without a second), no reltionship can exist, ONE feeling Complete in SELF. Separate bodies based on space between them offers no proof of our feeling separations. Minds are conditioned differently also offers no proof either, because in reality they all are ONE Consciousness appearing as many in ignorance, just as Ocean appearing as waves. Thus Ego, being the notion making us believe divided is the root cause of evil. And it is entirely due to ignorance of our True nature of ONENESS, non-dual Consciousness! If we truly, truly let go of this notion and feel, think and act from this underlying Oneness on the plain of surface diversity(world) we cannot do any evil acts! This is how I would answer " how and why " of evil actions. " When did this evil start? " cannot be answered in time frame as Ignorance of one's true nature is beginningless (Upanishadas). This is because upon Realization one knows " there was/is never any ignorance " . If there is knowing of " ignorance " , then, there is one who knows! Practically one can say that the original sin(eating apple) is this individuality! Namaskaras......... Pratap Bhatt ------------------------------ PRIOR POSTING Good and bad reside within everybody. It is upto us to choose. In this Kaliyug one finds more bad people because they are chasing illusions which they feel will make them happy and one up on others. For those who want moksha or liberation from endless deaths and births will only do good karmas so that they will attain moksha earlier. Hari Shanker Deo ------------------------------ PRIOR POSTING Dear Sadaks, Aggynanam (Evil) was born along with Gyana (Knowledge). It is said in Uoanashids and Vedas that Evil`s birth not over Anatha Koti Kalpa Kaalam. Means the bigining not known. It is also said that the creation and (Maha Pralayam) destruction was going on for several times. Bagavan Vishnu told Markandeyan Maha Rishi the following: When Maha Pralayam takes place the water cover the whole earth, the water and earth is swallowed by Pralayagni (The fire one sees in galaxies speard over millions of miles), Pralayagni is swallowed by Pralaya Vaayu (wind one can never dream off), The pralaya Vaayu takes abode in Space, and the whole space in Maha Vishnu. Again the creation starts. This what going on. So the evil comes in along with creation. Evil plays role of taking the creation by 4 yugas to an end. Evil is there in untold actions. In the begining When fire was discovered earth stared polluting, from fire cooking which gave us unnatural food, cooked food gives us aging (Normally Man said to be 12 Ft tall and life span was 300 years as per scientific finding of human body design, one can see today in Musium the sword of kings 6 ft long weighing 20/25 Kg), So man was heafty to carry that weight. Sri Treta Yug (Sri Rama) period it is said that woman gave birth only on completion of 12 months. Now it has come to 9 months. From these actions and food Evil multiplied more and more to greater level. When evil becomes the most the Dharma is destroying. To save that Dharma Bagavan appears as KALKI Avatar. B.Sathyanarayan ------------------------------ GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: 1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify their doubts related to Gitaji shalokas. Therefore, responses which further clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be posted. 2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to substantiate your response. 3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas 4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting sadhaka's time. 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only. 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other organizations. 7. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone number, address etc. 8. Please do not address the response to a particular individual since the message is going to the entire group. 9. Due to the large readership, all responses may not be posted. 10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if content is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the group. 11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use to Sanskrit words only, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit bracketed wherever possible. MODERATOR Ram Ram ------------------------ Post message: Subscribe: - Un: - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 9, 2008 Report Share Posted November 9, 2008 -Shree Hari- Something I have pondered upon for a very long time: Mankind is capable of acts of profound love and compassion, and also acts of stupendous evil. The demonic has been equated by people I certainly admire, in a nutshell as being without balance. A Sufi Saint I read about, made the observation that the Shatan was the ego. Sri Krishna, as noted in Gitaji, described what is demonic. My question is; how, when and why , was Evil born. With Respect and Divine Love, Mike Keenor ------------------------------ NEW POSTING Hari Om My understanding of Swamiji's message is that the evil gets established in the Ego and does not leave you - till you leave that, in other words till you refuse to accept that the evil is in you. Why one should not discuss about the same? Is it not a problem of humanity at large? It stays and has capacity to stay in your " svabhav " (nature) till you amend your svabhav. With your " subtle body " it goes with you even after your death. One should not whisk away so easily ! If it does not stay then why God has to incarnate in every yuga to re-establish Dharma (righteousness)? Where is the need for Gita? Where is the need for Saints like Swami Ramsukhdasji Maharaj? Why one should amend his " svabhav " (nature) ? We must address evil. We can't afford to ignore it so easily. In the end to get rid of it - Don't accept it in you ! That is true. But not like this !! Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ------------------------- PRIOR POSTING :Shree Hari: Ram Ram. No use searching for 'how evil was born?', 'when evil was born?' and 'why was evil born?' as Swamiji said,'what is born, will die' and so nothing to find 'how, when, why' of what will not stay. Ram Ram. Sarvottam ------------------------------ Dear Sadhakas, Namaste! Mikeji's question is born of contemplation and I am sure he has his answer too! I see Evil is doing onto " others " that one doesn't want done on him/her. Any relationship, potentially evil or otherwise, is possible only when there is " one " and therefore, necessarily, " other " . As Sufi saint rightly put it Satan was/is the Ego, ego being the notion of " one " , relative only to " other " . This is believing " one " as separate from " other " as individuals. This is why evil actions are possible just as acts of profound love and compassion are possible towards seemingly " others " . If there is only ONE, non-dual(one without a second), no relationship can exist, ONE feeling Complete in SELF. Separate bodies based on space between them offers no proof of our feeling separations. Minds are conditioned differently also offers no proof either, because in reality they all are ONE Consciousness appearing as many in ignorance, just as Ocean appearing as waves. Thus Ego, being the notion making us believe divided is the root cause of evil. And it is entirely due to ignorance of our True nature of ONENESS, non-dual Consciousness! If we truly, truly let go of this notion and feel, think and act from this underlying Oneness on the plain of surface diversity(world) we cannot do any evil acts! This is how I would answer " how and why " of evil actions. " When did this evil start? " cannot be answered in time frame as Ignorance of one's true nature is beginningless (Upanishadas). This is because upon Realization one knows " there was/is never any ignorance " . If there is knowing of " ignorance " , then, there is one who knows! Practically one can say that the original sin(eating apple) is this individuality! Namaskaras......... Pratap Bhatt ------------------------------ Good and bad reside within everybody. It is upto us to choose. In this Kaliyug one finds more bad people because they are chasing illusions which they feel will make them happy and one up on others. For those who want moksha or liberation from endless deaths and births will only do good karmas so that they will attain moksha earlier. Hari Shanker Deo ------------------------------ Dear Sadaks, Aggynanam (Evil) was born along with Gyana (Knowledge). It is said in Uoanashids and Vedas that Evil`s birth not over Anatha Koti Kalpa Kaalam. Means the bigining not known. It is also said that the creation and (Maha Pralayam) destruction was going on for several times. Bagavan Vishnu told Markandeyan Maha Rishi the following: When Maha Pralayam takes place the water cover the whole earth, the water and earth is swallowed by Pralayagni (The fire one sees in galaxies speard over millions of miles), Pralayagni is swallowed by Pralaya Vaayu (wind one can never dream off), The pralaya Vaayu takes abode in Space, and the whole space in Maha Vishnu. Again the creation starts. This what going on. So the evil comes in along with creation. Evil plays role of taking the creation by 4 yugas to an end. Evil is there in untold actions. In the begining When fire was discovered earth stared polluting, from fire cooking which gave us unnatural food, cooked food gives us aging (Normally Man said to be 12 Ft tall and life span was 300 years as per scientific finding of human body design, one can see today in Musium the sword of kings 6 ft long weighing 20/25 Kg), So man was heafty to carry that weight. Sri Treta Yug (Sri Rama) period it is said that woman gave birth only on completion of 12 months. Now it has come to 9 months. From these actions and food Evil multiplied more and more to greater level. When evil becomes the most the Dharma is destroying. To save that Dharma Bagavan appears as KALKI Avatar. B.Sathyanarayan ------------------------------ GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: 1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify their doubts related to Gitaji shalokas. Therefore, responses which further clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be posted. 2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to substantiate your response. 3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas 4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting sadhaka's time. 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only. 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other organizations. 7. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone number, address etc. 8. Please do not address the response to a particular individual since the message is going to the entire group. 9. Due to the large readership, all responses may not be posted. 10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if content is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the group. 11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use to Sanskrit words only, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit bracketed wherever possible. MODERATOR Ram Ram ------------------------ Post message: Subscribe: - Un: - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 11, 2008 Report Share Posted November 11, 2008 -Shree Hari- Something I have pondered upon for a very long time: Mankind is capable of acts of profound love and compassion, and also acts of stupendous evil. The demonic has been equated by people I certainly admire, in a nutshell as being without balance. A Sufi Saint I read about, made the observation that the Shatan was the ego. Sri Krishna, as noted in Gitaji, described what is demonic. My question is; how, when and why , was Evil born. With Respect and Divine Love, Mike Keenor ------------------------------ NEW POSTING Dear Sadhak, The nature of the world is dual. All opposites exists here. The source of evil and source of goodness is the same-Nature Arjuna asked similar question to Lord in Gitaji Ch 3:36 Arjuna said: O descendant of Vrsni, by what is one impelled to sinful acts, even unwillingly, as if engaged by force? And Krishna said : It is desire only, Arjuna, which is born out of the Rajoguna( mode of passion) and later transformed into wrath, and which is the all-devouring, sinful enemy of this world. Ch 3:37 He also said The mode of passion is born of unlimited desires and longings, O son of Kunti, and because of this one is bound to material fruitive activities. Ch14:7 This means due to dominance of Rajoguna, the desire or Kaam is born. And as Swamiji explained in simplest term Kaam is attachment towards outcome, liking and disliking.This " desire " is the root cause of all evils. With lots of love, A sadhika Sadhana Karigar ------------------------------ -Shree Hari- In the Abrahamic tradition, the eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, compares remarkably, well with B.Sathyanarayanji's statement inserted: 'Aggynanam (Evil) was born along with Gyana (Knowledge). ' Of course there is duality at this point, and then the Ego struts its stuff. I was interested to read respected Sadhaks commentaries, I feel that there is a Universal understanding of the root cause of Evil, 'That moment'. Yes I agree that Evil resides within us all, dogging us from birth to birth, a very good reason not to judge others, after all what Evil has been carried out by one in previous lifetimes. To desire the the truth with ones total being, is a two edge sword, Bhagwan in all his loving mercy will give all you search for, as much as one can bare . B.G.:- 73.Routed out is my illusion as I have gained my memory (knowledge) through your grace, Krishna! I am firm; my doubts are gone. I will act according to your word. With Respect and Divine Love, Mike Keenor ------------------------------- Loving Divine, Pranam. Mikeji, yes shatan is ego. To your question, a different perspective (not so different utlimately, please contemplate and let us know whether you get your answer or not, may be you already found your answer...) - How: by me giving birth to goodness... When: when I decided to operate under unnatural laws, i.e., my ignorance... or when I forgot advait. Why: I desired so when I was under the spell of ignorance... Hope this helps, if needed little detail explanation please let me know. Thanks. humble regards, alwasy at Thy Holy Feet ----------------------------- Dear Sadaks, The question of Sri Mikeji is--My question is; how, when and why , was Evil born. Because of desire evil gets birth. Evil gets into you at the moment the thought arises for DESIRE. Last is the question " Why " --- the answer is to satisfy you. If there was No evil you dont get your desires satisfied. Example: Adam And Eve. To eat an apple thought arose (When). Then action to eat apple took place (How) To satisfy eating apple (Why). Here the snake represents evil as the desires not in straigjht line i.e. mind goes yes or no. Apple represents object to which desires go. Adam and Eve represent whom evil swallows. Bhagavan in Geetha says Kaameyesu (Desires) -- Krothayesu (Anger) Etc. From desire arises Anger Etc B.Sathyanarayan ------------------------------ PRIOR POSTING Hari Om My understanding of Swamiji's message is that the evil gets established in the Ego and does not leave you - till you leave that, in other words till you refuse to accept that the evil is in you. Why one should not discuss about the same? Is it not a problem of humanity at large? It stays and has capacity to stay in your " svabhav " (nature) till you amend your svabhav. With your " subtle body " it goes with you even after your death. One should not whisk away so easily ! If it does not stay then why God has to incarnate in every yuga to re-establish Dharma (righteousness)? Where is the need for Gita? Where is the need for Saints like Swami Ramsukhdasji Maharaj? Why one should amend his " svabhav " (nature) ? We must address evil. We can't afford to ignore it so easily. In the end to get rid of it - Don't accept it in you ! That is true. But not like this !! Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ------------------------- PRIOR POSTING :Shree Hari: Ram Ram. No use searching for 'how evil was born?', 'when evil was born?' and 'why was evil born?' as Swamiji said,'what is born, will die' and so nothing to find 'how, when, why' of what will not stay. Ram Ram. Sarvottam ------------------------------ Dear Sadhakas, Namaste! Mikeji's question is born of contemplation and I am sure he has his answer too! I see Evil is doing onto " others " that one doesn't want done on him/her. Any relationship, potentially evil or otherwise, is possible only when there is " one " and therefore, necessarily, " other " . As Sufi saint rightly put it Satan was/is the Ego, ego being the notion of " one " , relative only to " other " . This is believing " one " as separate from " other " as individuals. This is why evil actions are possible just as acts of profound love and compassion are possible towards seemingly " others " . If there is only ONE, non-dual(one without a second), no relationship can exist, ONE feeling Complete in SELF. Separate bodies based on space between them offers no proof of our feeling separations. Minds are conditioned differently also offers no proof either, because in reality they all are ONE Consciousness appearing as many in ignorance, just as Ocean appearing as waves. Thus Ego, being the notion making us believe divided is the root cause of evil. And it is entirely due to ignorance of our True nature of ONENESS, non-dual Consciousness! If we truly, truly let go of this notion and feel, think and act from this underlying Oneness on the plain of surface diversity(world) we cannot do any evil acts! This is how I would answer " how and why " of evil actions. " When did this evil start? " cannot be answered in time frame as Ignorance of one's true nature is beginningless (Upanishadas). This is because upon Realization one knows " there was/is never any ignorance " . If there is knowing of " ignorance " , then, there is one who knows! Practically one can say that the original sin(eating apple) is this individuality! Namaskaras......... Pratap Bhatt ------------------------------ Good and bad reside within everybody. It is upto us to choose. In this Kaliyug one finds more bad people because they are chasing illusions which they feel will make them happy and one up on others. For those who want moksha or liberation from endless deaths and births will only do good karmas so that they will attain moksha earlier. Hari Shanker Deo ------------------------------ Dear Sadaks, Aggynanam (Evil) was born along with Gyana (Knowledge). It is said in Uoanashids and Vedas that Evil`s birth not over Anatha Koti Kalpa Kaalam. Means the bigining not known. It is also said that the creation and (Maha Pralayam) destruction was going on for several times. Bagavan Vishnu told Markandeyan Maha Rishi the following: When Maha Pralayam takes place the water cover the whole earth, the water and earth is swallowed by Pralayagni (The fire one sees in galaxies speard over millions of miles), Pralayagni is swallowed by Pralaya Vaayu (wind one can never dream off), The pralaya Vaayu takes abode in Space, and the whole space in Maha Vishnu. Again the creation starts. This what going on. So the evil comes in along with creation. Evil plays role of taking the creation by 4 yugas to an end. Evil is there in untold actions. In the begining When fire was discovered earth stared polluting, from fire cooking which gave us unnatural food, cooked food gives us aging (Normally Man said to be 12 Ft tall and life span was 300 years as per scientific finding of human body design, one can see today in Musium the sword of kings 6 ft long weighing 20/25 Kg), So man was heafty to carry that weight. Sri Treta Yug (Sri Rama) period it is said that woman gave birth only on completion of 12 months. Now it has come to 9 months. From these actions and food Evil multiplied more and more to greater level. When evil becomes the most the Dharma is destroying. To save that Dharma Bagavan appears as KALKI Avatar. B.Sathyanarayan ------------------------------ GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: 1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify their doubts related to Gitaji shalokas. Therefore, responses which further clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be posted. 2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to substantiate your response. 3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas 4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting sadhaka's time. 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only. 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other organizations. 7. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone number, address etc. 8. Please do not address the response to a particular individual since the message is going to the entire group. 9. Due to the large readership, all responses may not be posted. 10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if content is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the group. 11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use to Sanskrit words only, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit bracketed wherever possible. MODERATOR Ram Ram ------------------------ Post message: Subscribe: - Un: - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 11, 2008 Report Share Posted November 11, 2008 -Shree Hari- Something I have pondered upon for a very long time: Mankind is capable of acts of profound love and compassion, and also acts of stupendous evil. The demonic has been equated by people I certainly admire, in a nutshell as being without balance. A Sufi Saint I read about, made the observation that the Shatan was the ego. Sri Krishna, as noted in Gitaji, described what is demonic. My question is; how, when and why , was Evil born. With Respect and Divine Love, Mike Keenor ------------------------------ NEW POSTING Hari Om 'How' , 'when' and 'why' the evil was born - this is the question. Answers is that when 'independence' was granted to individual souls of the conduct in this 'lila of God'- all three happenned together. Those who forget the 'rules of play' fall into the well of 'desire' - the term used for them is 'evil'. Those who listen to their conscience, conduct accordingly, the term used for them is 'good'. Powers accessible to humans include even control over certain functions of 'nature'. They can acquire super natural powers (siddhis) through meditation etc. When they acquire those powers (and exemptions from operation of certain laws) , and when they 'misutilse' those powers for 'self gratification' , then 'gods' incarnate and destroy their evilness in a fitting manner. To an outsider therefore these events seem to be 'violent' but in fact it is 're-establishing the laws pertaining to right conduct (dharma) ' . All sorts of 'evils' are present in one evil called 'desire' ! That is all which in my view is the essence. Scriptures from the outset of creation have laid down the principles and laws governing the creation. Those of us who follow those principles are called 'good'. Those who under sway of 'desires' flout the laws are called 'evil' . Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ----------------------------- I think you might ask if evil would exist if there were no humans around to label events as evil? Ravi Bakhsi ------------------------------ Jai Hanuman Either there is no " good " and no " evil " or absence of good is evil/ absence of evil is good. You see this world is a " divine play " . You are given " independence " to play. You can't be " dependent " and still " play " . All those advocating that a 'person doesn't have free will' are either too bondaged and therefore too ignorant of their " selves " or " too enlightened " therefore too ignorant of other " selves " (Self being the same in both the cases).. They are 'ignorant' definitely. (Afterall ignorance lies in ego- Right you are there, Brother) Misutilisation of that " independence " is called " evil " . Right utilisation of that is called " good " . Hence basically, it is a matter of utilisation. " Independence " is common in both !! This answers Mike's question - Since when? Answer is " Since the day one " !! Namaste Jee Jee Jee Shashikala The profound love and compassion is the root cause for the stupendous evil. The loving and compassionate mother (Mata Shakti) suckling her baby nurturing life becomes the murderous terror (Bhadra Kali) sucking the lives of any potential threat to the very love and compassion. That is nature. We need love and compassion to be comforted. So we seek it naturally. The problem is we get too complacent with such comfort and develop unquestioned dependancy on the same to an extent that any threat to this comfort becomes a threat for individual existence. The same loving and compassionate soul turns into apathy and destruction in rage if its foundation of love and compassion is at stake. Violence is born in peace and peace takes birth from the ashes of violence like a pheonyx bird in all living soceities. That is the quality of all the perceived emotions – recycling amongst their apposites. The very crave toward an imaginary " good " quality is the seed for one's flight away from its reflection – the " bad " quality. The very resent toward a preconceived " bad " quality is the seed for one's search for its conjugate – the " good " quality. I would say, the good and the bad are born in each other at the very instant either of them are conceived in one's cognition. All qualities of life (values and taboos alike) are concocted in one's perception with following fundamental qualities: 1. Every quality adapted in one's cognition instantly creates its predator in the image of its opposite quality in the very same cognitive medium becoming the " aja " (a prey) for its marauder. 2. No quality in one's perception can last for more than the instant it is born – every perception is, in other words, just an " aja " (one who is as good as having not taken birth, vanishing at the very instant it appears). 3. Every perception is forced to be an " aja " , a procreative creature cloning itself perpetually to retain its existence in continuity). 4. Every perception is meant to remain an " aja " (a persihable being at the mercy of its own illusive conductance of beieiving the perceived image or thought to be integral while it is actually a fractured heap of disconnected images lost into the oblivion of the past). One who realizes the nature of the very perception would not give any importance to them in any manner and hence can grow out of the miseries of all kinds as such: Indriyaanaam prithagbhaavamudayaastamayou cha yat | Prithagutpadyamaanaanaam mattvaa dheero na shochati || However, this cannot be attained successfully as far as we depend on the " aja " – the perishable, the recyclable, the manipulatable, the never-alive and ever-dead thoughts and perceptions – in terms of their own derivatives such as listening, watching, speaking, thinking, etc. as we perceive: Naayamaatmaa pravachanena labhyah | Na medhayaa bahuna shrutena || Any insistence for such urge to transcend the " aja " inherent in one's life would verily limit the individual to an " aja " , a sheep, an embodiment of ignorance as such. One who realizes the " aja " in every perception would verily transcend the same giving no particular attention to any such events and retaining no specificity of whatsoever quality for the same. Then the continuity that is actually inherent in all the events dwelling in The Aja, The Birthless Absolute, as IT is revealed to absorb the individual within ITSELF as such: Yamevaisha vrinute tena labhyah | Tasyaisha aatmaa vivrunute tanum svaam || Once The Birthless Absolute is attained in the absence of the sgnificance for the perishables, it reveals itself amongst the very objects and thoughts once perceived as perishables removing the imposter, the quality projected in our perception on each object, event and relation. Then where is the room for evil or for good? In my opinion, the good and its nemesis are never-existent in reality. If they seem to exist, they co-exist in one's perception – in that case, they both exist simultaneously in one's perception though the perceiver pretends to ignore or fails to acknowledge the presence of both together for circumstantial adaption. Respects. Naga Narayana ------------------------------- PRIOR POSTING Dear Sadhak, The nature of the world is dual. All opposites exists here. The source of evil and source of goodness is the same-Nature Arjuna asked similar question to Lord in Gitaji Ch 3:36 Arjuna said: O descendant of Vrsni, by what is one impelled to sinful acts, even unwillingly, as if engaged by force? And Krishna said : It is desire only, Arjuna, which is born out of the Rajoguna( mode of passion) and later transformed into wrath, and which is the all-devouring, sinful enemy of this world. Ch 3:37 He also said The mode of passion is born of unlimited desires and longings, O son of Kunti, and because of this one is bound to material fruitive activities. Ch14:7 This means due to dominance of Rajoguna, the desire or Kaam is born. And as Swamiji explained in simplest term Kaam is attachment towards outcome, liking and disliking.This " desire " is the root cause of all evils. With lots of love, A sadhika Sadhana Karigar ------------------------------ -Shree Hari- In the Abrahamic tradition, the eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, compares remarkably, well with B.Sathyanarayanji's statement inserted: 'Aggynanam (Evil) was born along with Gyana (Knowledge). ' Of course there is duality at this point, and then the Ego struts its stuff. I was interested to read respected Sadhaks commentaries, I feel that there is a Universal understanding of the root cause of Evil, 'That moment'. Yes I agree that Evil resides within us all, dogging us from birth to birth, a very good reason not to judge others, after all what Evil has been carried out by one in previous lifetimes. To desire the the truth with ones total being, is a two edge sword, Bhagwan in all his loving mercy will give all you search for, as much as one can bare . B.G.:- 73.Routed out is my illusion as I have gained my memory (knowledge) through your grace, Krishna! I am firm; my doubts are gone. I will act according to your word. With Respect and Divine Love, Mike Keenor ------------------------------- Loving Divine, Pranam. Mikeji, yes shatan is ego. To your question, a different perspective (not so different utlimately, please contemplate and let us know whether you get your answer or not, may be you already found your answer...) - How: by me giving birth to goodness... When: when I decided to operate under unnatural laws, i.e., my ignorance... or when I forgot advait. Why: I desired so when I was under the spell of ignorance... Hope this helps, if needed little detail explanation please let me know. Thanks. humble regards, alwasy at Thy Holy Feet ----------------------------- Dear Sadaks, The question of Sri Mikeji is--My question is; how, when and why , was Evil born. Because of desire evil gets birth. Evil gets into you at the moment the thought arises for DESIRE. Last is the question " Why " --- the answer is to satisfy you. If there was No evil you dont get your desires satisfied. Example: Adam And Eve. To eat an apple thought arose (When). Then action to eat apple took place (How) To satisfy eating apple (Why). Here the snake represents evil as the desires not in straigjht line i.e. mind goes yes or no. Apple represents object to which desires go. Adam and Eve represent whom evil swallows. Bhagavan in Geetha says Kaameyesu (Desires) -- Krothayesu (Anger) Etc. From desire arises Anger Etc B.Sathyanarayan ------------------------------ PRIOR POSTING Hari Om My understanding of Swamiji's message is that the evil gets established in the Ego and does not leave you - till you leave that, in other words till you refuse to accept that the evil is in you. Why one should not discuss about the same? Is it not a problem of humanity at large? It stays and has capacity to stay in your " svabhav " (nature) till you amend your svabhav. With your " subtle body " it goes with you even after your death. One should not whisk away so easily ! If it does not stay then why God has to incarnate in every yuga to re-establish Dharma (righteousness)? Where is the need for Gita? Where is the need for Saints like Swami Ramsukhdasji Maharaj? Why one should amend his " svabhav " (nature) ? We must address evil. We can't afford to ignore it so easily. In the end to get rid of it - Don't accept it in you ! That is true. But not like this !! Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ------------------------- PRIOR POSTING :Shree Hari: Ram Ram. No use searching for 'how evil was born?', 'when evil was born?' and 'why was evil born?' as Swamiji said,'what is born, will die' and so nothing to find 'how, when, why' of what will not stay. Ram Ram. Sarvottam ------------------------------ Dear Sadhakas, Namaste! Mikeji's question is born of contemplation and I am sure he has his answer too! I see Evil is doing onto " others " that one doesn't want done on him/her. Any relationship, potentially evil or otherwise, is possible only when there is " one " and therefore, necessarily, " other " . As Sufi saint rightly put it Satan was/is the Ego, ego being the notion of " one " , relative only to " other " . This is believing " one " as separate from " other " as individuals. This is why evil actions are possible just as acts of profound love and compassion are possible towards seemingly " others " . If there is only ONE, non-dual(one without a second), no relationship can exist, ONE feeling Complete in SELF. Separate bodies based on space between them offers no proof of our feeling separations. Minds are conditioned differently also offers no proof either, because in reality they all are ONE Consciousness appearing as many in ignorance, just as Ocean appearing as waves. Thus Ego, being the notion making us believe divided is the root cause of evil. And it is entirely due to ignorance of our True nature of ONENESS, non-dual Consciousness! If we truly, truly let go of this notion and feel, think and act from this underlying Oneness on the plain of surface diversity(world) we cannot do any evil acts! This is how I would answer " how and why " of evil actions. " When did this evil start? " cannot be answered in time frame as Ignorance of one's true nature is beginningless (Upanishadas). This is because upon Realization one knows " there was/is never any ignorance " . If there is knowing of " ignorance " , then, there is one who knows! Practically one can say that the original sin(eating apple) is this individuality! Namaskaras......... Pratap Bhatt ------------------------------ Good and bad reside within everybody. It is upto us to choose. In this Kaliyug one finds more bad people because they are chasing illusions which they feel will make them happy and one up on others. For those who want moksha or liberation from endless deaths and births will only do good karmas so that they will attain moksha earlier. Hari Shanker Deo ------------------------------ Dear Sadaks, Aggynanam (Evil) was born along with Gyana (Knowledge). It is said in Uoanashids and Vedas that Evil`s birth not over Anatha Koti Kalpa Kaalam. Means the bigining not known. It is also said that the creation and (Maha Pralayam) destruction was going on for several times. Bagavan Vishnu told Markandeyan Maha Rishi the following: When Maha Pralayam takes place the water cover the whole earth, the water and earth is swallowed by Pralayagni (The fire one sees in galaxies speard over millions of miles), Pralayagni is swallowed by Pralaya Vaayu (wind one can never dream off), The pralaya Vaayu takes abode in Space, and the whole space in Maha Vishnu. Again the creation starts. This what going on. So the evil comes in along with creation. Evil plays role of taking the creation by 4 yugas to an end. Evil is there in untold actions. In the begining When fire was discovered earth stared polluting, from fire cooking which gave us unnatural food, cooked food gives us aging (Normally Man said to be 12 Ft tall and life span was 300 years as per scientific finding of human body design, one can see today in Musium the sword of kings 6 ft long weighing 20/25 Kg), So man was heafty to carry that weight. Sri Treta Yug (Sri Rama) period it is said that woman gave birth only on completion of 12 months. Now it has come to 9 months. From these actions and food Evil multiplied more and more to greater level. When evil becomes the most the Dharma is destroying. To save that Dharma Bagavan appears as KALKI Avatar. B.Sathyanarayan ------------------------------ GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: 1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify their doubts related to Gitaji shalokas. Therefore, responses which further clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be posted. 2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to substantiate your response. 3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas 4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting sadhaka's time. 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only. 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other organizations. 7. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone number, address etc. 8. Please do not address the response to a particular individual since the message is going to the entire group. 9. Due to the large readership, all responses may not be posted. 10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if content is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the group. 11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use to Sanskrit words only, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit bracketed wherever possible. MODERATOR Ram Ram ------------------------ Post message: Subscribe: - Un: - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 13, 2008 Report Share Posted November 13, 2008 -Shree Hari- Something I have pondered upon for a very long time: Mankind is capable of acts of profound love and compassion, and also acts of stupendous evil. The demonic has been equated by people I certainly admire, in a nutshell as being without balance. A Sufi Saint I read about, made the observation that the Shatan was the ego. Sri Krishna, as noted in Gitaji, described what is demonic. My question is; how, when and why , was Evil born. With Respect and Divine Love, Mike Keenor ------------------------------ NEW POSTING Dear Sadhika Shashikalaji,Pyaari Jeje,I do not need to say anything as you know all this for sure, but just want to write. A seeker of Knowledge know deep inside that there is only One existence. That One is no other than I. So he says-I am That!!! A devotee sees his beloved Krishna in all and says -TU hi Tu, but deep inside he knows that His Krishna and He is One. One multiplied and look Many, but those many can only be seen because that One exist. That One can exist without many but the many cannot exist without the One. So the appearance of many is just a illusion, a play, a leela. In this play I know I am just a puppet dancing on His fingertips.To create more thrill in this play He has loosen His string so we start thinking that we are independent but how far we can go with this so called free will ? Once I realize that I am a puppet and He, my beloved Krishna is holding my strings then why do I need to worry about my moves ? Why do I need free will ? I will better dance on His flute, and merge in His devine Love. Pyaari Jeje, forgive my ignorance, but that is how my Krishna wants me to be. Hope you will understand... Asuan jal seench seench prem bel boi Ab to bel fel gayi anand fal hoi... ( I planted the seed of Love and my tears watered this plant, now the plant has grown up and bearing fruits of bliss) With Love and Love and Love, my sweet jeje, a sadhika Sadhna Karigar ----------------------------- hari bol birth of Evil took place at the time god decided this mortal world to function this is as per Shrimad Bhagwat hari bol b.p.taneja ------------------------------ If Kaam (Desires) leads to evil then why is kaam one of the four pillars of life, artha, dharma, kaam, moksha? Insatiable kaam (desires) is another thing but Kaam or desire by itself surely cannot be the cause of evil? anil bhanot ------------------------------- Beloved seekers. I have been following this thread with great interest. From the first time i read it, i thought -- and continue to think -- that Lord Krishna said it well, when he responded to Arjuna's question about why men do things that seem horrible. The Lord said " Raj, Passion. Anger " . The Song Celestial tells me that there is no evil; only bad actions through the hands of angry men. Gary Poyssick Aum.... shanti shanti shanti ----------------------------- Dear sadaks, Your shadow and you. Your reflection in the mirror or water. Who are you? You can easily identify saying shadow and reflection is by object (Me). So the SAT is you and your shadows (Karmas) are your reflections. Bhagavan in Geetha said that from desire only anger comes, then jealousy etc. Since desire is seed of all actions, it is dangerous as one cannot know when the seed will manifest. Examples: Akrorra was ardent bhaktha of Sri Krishna. But later part of life he stole Samanthakamani (That gives gold) from Bhagavan. Desire for Gold NOT Bagavan. Mata Devaki very much gifted to be mother of Sri Krishna. After seeing Krishna and being with HIM will anyone of us have another desire other than Sri Krishna alone (like Radhe had). But Mata Devaki asked Krishna that it would have been nice if HIS elder brother were alive. Bhagavan brought back to life all his elder brothers and presented to his mother. The DESIRE not ended there she gave birth to another child younger brother of Sri Krishna known as Sathyaki. A Bhaktha known as Poothanam in 1645 lost his only son on the first birth anniversary. He sang song Nygappana (Malayalam) that why he needs children when his son Sri Krishna is there. Meant let my child go. No Desire. Alas Sri Krishna really came and sat on his lap. Poothanam was taken abode with body to Vaikunt by flying Viman at Mallapuram in Kerala in presence of many people like that of Sant Tukaram in the same period 16th century. Sadhaks We must desire for such type of Bakthi even in our perils The desire (Kaama) if not given by Bhagavan, we will be like animals. Animals have desires those are differently called instinct. Now the desire tool could be set (As one sets in computer) can be slowly turned towards Sat Sangh, Bhajan, Namasankeethan Etc. The brain has ratio and capacity. In the beginning the worldly desires will be more in ratio. But slowly by Sat Sangh/Sadhana the worldly desires keeps reducing and the taste of Bhakthi dominates. Once the taste of Bhakthi tasted the mind will ask more and more. Mind Tastes ignorance, it will ask more and more of ignorance, because it` s nature is so. But by Buddhi (Intellect- Vivechanam) one can feed the mind's direction. Manas never listens to you. Similarly turn all the 6 bad Gunas into correct direction making them good. Krodh (Anger) which we are tasting whole day, can slowly be turned towards oneself within thinking, " How bad I am. My stupid mind runs here and there, ultimately putting me in sorrow. My time management is worst, in seeing TV serials, talking about others. ETC " . This type of Krodh makes one purer and purer and turns mind to Bagavan. Jealosy- Become Jealous on looking at Sadhaks/gopies who practice more Bhakthi than you. Eventually the 6 Bad Gunas disappear melts away and mind becomes clear that you and the other person are the same. Sarvam Vasudevamayam. We can use knife to cut fruit or to cut ourselves. Choise is our. This is where we are indipendant. But when learnt to use this knife called Budhi to cut 6 Bad Gunas, we loose our indipendance and become dependant saying " It is all HIS leelas " . Jai Sri Krishna baiya sathyanarayan ------------------------------ PRIOR POSTING Hari Om 'How' , 'when' and 'why' the evil was born - this is the question. Answers is that when 'independence' was granted to individual souls of the conduct in this 'lila of God'- all three happenned together. Those who forget the 'rules of play' fall into the well of 'desire' - the term used for them is 'evil'. Those who listen to their conscience, conduct accordingly, the term used for them is 'good'. Powers accessible to humans include even control over certain functions of 'nature'. They can acquire super natural powers (siddhis) through meditation etc. When they acquire those powers (and exemptions from operation of certain laws) , and when they 'misutilse' those powers for 'self gratification' , then 'gods' incarnate and destroy their evilness in a fitting manner. To an outsider therefore these events seem to be 'violent' but in fact it is 're-establishing the laws pertaining to right conduct (dharma) ' . All sorts of 'evils' are present in one evil called 'desire' ! That is all which in my view is the essence. Scriptures from the outset of creation have laid down the principles and laws governing the creation. Those of us who follow those principles are called 'good'. Those who under sway of 'desires' flout the laws are called 'evil' . Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ----------------------------- I think you might ask if evil would exist if there were no humans around to label events as evil? Ravi Bakhsi ------------------------------ Jai Hanuman Either there is no " good " and no " evil " or absence of good is evil/ absence of evil is good. You see this world is a " divine play " . You are given " independence " to play. You can't be " dependent " and still " play " . All those advocating that a 'person doesn't have free will' are either too bondaged and therefore too ignorant of their " selves " or " too enlightened " therefore too ignorant of other " selves " (Self being the same in both the cases).. They are 'ignorant' definitely. (Afterall ignorance lies in ego- Right you are there, Brother) Misutilisation of that " independence " is called " evil " . Right utilisation of that is called " good " . Hence basically, it is a matter of utilisation. " Independence " is common in both !! This answers Mike's question - Since when? Answer is " Since the day one " !! Namaste Jee Jee Jee Shashikala The profound love and compassion is the root cause for the stupendous evil. The loving and compassionate mother (Mata Shakti) suckling her baby nurturing life becomes the murderous terror (Bhadra Kali) sucking the lives of any potential threat to the very love and compassion. That is nature. We need love and compassion to be comforted. So we seek it naturally. The problem is we get too complacent with such comfort and develop unquestioned dependancy on the same to an extent that any threat to this comfort becomes a threat for individual existence. The same loving and compassionate soul turns into apathy and destruction in rage if its foundation of love and compassion is at stake. Violence is born in peace and peace takes birth from the ashes of violence like a pheonyx bird in all living soceities. That is the quality of all the perceived emotions – recycling amongst their apposites. The very crave toward an imaginary " good " quality is the seed for one's flight away from its reflection – the " bad " quality. The very resent toward a preconceived " bad " quality is the seed for one's search for its conjugate – the " good " quality. I would say, the good and the bad are born in each other at the very instant either of them are conceived in one's cognition. All qualities of life (values and taboos alike) are concocted in one's perception with following fundamental qualities: 1. Every quality adapted in one's cognition instantly creates its predator in the image of its opposite quality in the very same cognitive medium becoming the " aja " (a prey) for its marauder. 2. No quality in one's perception can last for more than the instant it is born – every perception is, in other words, just an " aja " (one who is as good as having not taken birth, vanishing at the very instant it appears). 3. Every perception is forced to be an " aja " , a procreative creature cloning itself perpetually to retain its existence in continuity). 4. Every perception is meant to remain an " aja " (a persihable being at the mercy of its own illusive conductance of beieiving the perceived image or thought to be integral while it is actually a fractured heap of disconnected images lost into the oblivion of the past). One who realizes the nature of the very perception would not give any importance to them in any manner and hence can grow out of the miseries of all kinds as such: Indriyaanaam prithagbhaavamudayaastamayou cha yat | Prithagutpadyamaanaanaam mattvaa dheero na shochati || However, this cannot be attained successfully as far as we depend on the " aja " – the perishable, the recyclable, the manipulatable, the never-alive and ever-dead thoughts and perceptions – in terms of their own derivatives such as listening, watching, speaking, thinking, etc. as we perceive: Naayamaatmaa pravachanena labhyah | Na medhayaa bahuna shrutena || Any insistence for such urge to transcend the " aja " inherent in one's life would verily limit the individual to an " aja " , a sheep, an embodiment of ignorance as such. One who realizes the " aja " in every perception would verily transcend the same giving no particular attention to any such events and retaining no specificity of whatsoever quality for the same. Then the continuity that is actually inherent in all the events dwelling in The Aja, The Birthless Absolute, as IT is revealed to absorb the individual within ITSELF as such: Yamevaisha vrinute tena labhyah | Tasyaisha aatmaa vivrunute tanum svaam || Once The Birthless Absolute is attained in the absence of the sgnificance for the perishables, it reveals itself amongst the very objects and thoughts once perceived as perishables removing the imposter, the quality projected in our perception on each object, event and relation. Then where is the room for evil or for good? In my opinion, the good and its nemesis are never-existent in reality. If they seem to exist, they co-exist in one's perception – in that case, they both exist simultaneously in one's perception though the perceiver pretends to ignore or fails to acknowledge the presence of both together for circumstantial adaption. Respects. Naga Narayana ------------------------------- PRIOR POSTING Dear Sadhak, The nature of the world is dual. All opposites exists here. The source of evil and source of goodness is the same-Nature Arjuna asked similar question to Lord in Gitaji Ch 3:36 Arjuna said: O descendant of Vrsni, by what is one impelled to sinful acts, even unwillingly, as if engaged by force? And Krishna said : It is desire only, Arjuna, which is born out of the Rajoguna( mode of passion) and later transformed into wrath, and which is the all-devouring, sinful enemy of this world. Ch 3:37 He also said The mode of passion is born of unlimited desires and longings, O son of Kunti, and because of this one is bound to material fruitive activities. Ch14:7 This means due to dominance of Rajoguna, the desire or Kaam is born. And as Swamiji explained in simplest term Kaam is attachment towards outcome, liking and disliking.This " desire " is the root cause of all evils. With lots of love, A sadhika Sadhana Karigar ------------------------------ -Shree Hari- In the Abrahamic tradition, the eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, compares remarkably, well with B.Sathyanarayanji's statement inserted: 'Aggynanam (Evil) was born along with Gyana (Knowledge). ' Of course there is duality at this point, and then the Ego struts its stuff. I was interested to read respected Sadhaks commentaries, I feel that there is a Universal understanding of the root cause of Evil, 'That moment'. Yes I agree that Evil resides within us all, dogging us from birth to birth, a very good reason not to judge others, after all what Evil has been carried out by one in previous lifetimes. To desire the the truth with ones total being, is a two edge sword, Bhagwan in all his loving mercy will give all you search for, as much as one can bare . B.G.:- 73.Routed out is my illusion as I have gained my memory (knowledge) through your grace, Krishna! I am firm; my doubts are gone. I will act according to your word. With Respect and Divine Love, Mike Keenor ------------------------------- Loving Divine, Pranam. Mikeji, yes shatan is ego. To your question, a different perspective (not so different utlimately, please contemplate and let us know whether you get your answer or not, may be you already found your answer...) - How: by me giving birth to goodness... When: when I decided to operate under unnatural laws, i.e., my ignorance... or when I forgot advait. Why: I desired so when I was under the spell of ignorance... Hope this helps, if needed little detail explanation please let me know. Thanks. humble regards, alwasy at Thy Holy Feet ----------------------------- Dear Sadaks, The question of Sri Mikeji is--My question is; how, when and why , was Evil born. Because of desire evil gets birth. Evil gets into you at the moment the thought arises for DESIRE. Last is the question " Why " --- the answer is to satisfy you. If there was No evil you dont get your desires satisfied. Example: Adam And Eve. To eat an apple thought arose (When). Then action to eat apple took place (How) To satisfy eating apple (Why). Here the snake represents evil as the desires not in straigjht line i.e. mind goes yes or no. Apple represents object to which desires go. Adam and Eve represent whom evil swallows. Bhagavan in Geetha says Kaameyesu (Desires) -- Krothayesu (Anger) Etc. From desire arises Anger Etc B.Sathyanarayan ------------------------------ PRIOR POSTING Hari Om My understanding of Swamiji's message is that the evil gets established in the Ego and does not leave you - till you leave that, in other words till you refuse to accept that the evil is in you. Why one should not discuss about the same? Is it not a problem of humanity at large? It stays and has capacity to stay in your " svabhav " (nature) till you amend your svabhav. With your " subtle body " it goes with you even after your death. One should not whisk away so easily ! If it does not stay then why God has to incarnate in every yuga to re-establish Dharma (righteousness)? Where is the need for Gita? Where is the need for Saints like Swami Ramsukhdasji Maharaj? Why one should amend his " svabhav " (nature) ? We must address evil. We can't afford to ignore it so easily. In the end to get rid of it - Don't accept it in you ! That is true. But not like this !! Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ------------------------- PRIOR POSTING :Shree Hari: Ram Ram. No use searching for 'how evil was born?', 'when evil was born?' and 'why was evil born?' as Swamiji said,'what is born, will die' and so nothing to find 'how, when, why' of what will not stay. Ram Ram. Sarvottam ------------------------------ Dear Sadhakas, Namaste! Mikeji's question is born of contemplation and I am sure he has his answer too! I see Evil is doing onto " others " that one doesn't want done on him/her. Any relationship, potentially evil or otherwise, is possible only when there is " one " and therefore, necessarily, " other " . As Sufi saint rightly put it Satan was/is the Ego, ego being the notion of " one " , relative only to " other " . This is believing " one " as separate from " other " as individuals. This is why evil actions are possible just as acts of profound love and compassion are possible towards seemingly " others " . If there is only ONE, non-dual(one without a second), no relationship can exist, ONE feeling Complete in SELF. Separate bodies based on space between them offers no proof of our feeling separations. Minds are conditioned differently also offers no proof either, because in reality they all are ONE Consciousness appearing as many in ignorance, just as Ocean appearing as waves. Thus Ego, being the notion making us believe divided is the root cause of evil. And it is entirely due to ignorance of our True nature of ONENESS, non-dual Consciousness! If we truly, truly let go of this notion and feel, think and act from this underlying Oneness on the plain of surface diversity(world) we cannot do any evil acts! This is how I would answer " how and why " of evil actions. " When did this evil start? " cannot be answered in time frame as Ignorance of one's true nature is beginningless (Upanishadas). This is because upon Realization one knows " there was/is never any ignorance " . If there is knowing of " ignorance " , then, there is one who knows! Practically one can say that the original sin(eating apple) is this individuality! Namaskaras......... Pratap Bhatt ------------------------------ Good and bad reside within everybody. It is upto us to choose. In this Kaliyug one finds more bad people because they are chasing illusions which they feel will make them happy and one up on others. For those who want moksha or liberation from endless deaths and births will only do good karmas so that they will attain moksha earlier. Hari Shanker Deo ------------------------------ Dear Sadaks, Aggynanam (Evil) was born along with Gyana (Knowledge). It is said in Uoanashids and Vedas that Evil`s birth not over Anatha Koti Kalpa Kaalam. Means the bigining not known. It is also said that the creation and (Maha Pralayam) destruction was going on for several times. Bagavan Vishnu told Markandeyan Maha Rishi the following: When Maha Pralayam takes place the water cover the whole earth, the water and earth is swallowed by Pralayagni (The fire one sees in galaxies speard over millions of miles), Pralayagni is swallowed by Pralaya Vaayu (wind one can never dream off), The pralaya Vaayu takes abode in Space, and the whole space in Maha Vishnu. Again the creation starts. This what going on. So the evil comes in along with creation. Evil plays role of taking the creation by 4 yugas to an end. Evil is there in untold actions. In the begining When fire was discovered earth stared polluting, from fire cooking which gave us unnatural food, cooked food gives us aging (Normally Man said to be 12 Ft tall and life span was 300 years as per scientific finding of human body design, one can see today in Musium the sword of kings 6 ft long weighing 20/25 Kg), So man was heafty to carry that weight. Sri Treta Yug (Sri Rama) period it is said that woman gave birth only on completion of 12 months. Now it has come to 9 months. From these actions and food Evil multiplied more and more to greater level. When evil becomes the most the Dharma is destroying. To save that Dharma Bagavan appears as KALKI Avatar. B.Sathyanarayan ------------------------------ GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: 1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify their doubts related to Gitaji shalokas. Therefore, responses which further clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be posted. 2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to substantiate your response. 3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas 4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting sadhaka's time. 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only. 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other organizations. 7. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone number, address etc. 8. Please do not address the response to a particular individual since the message is going to the entire group. 9. Due to the large readership, all responses may not be posted. 10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if content is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the group. 11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use to Sanskrit words only, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit bracketed wherever possible. MODERATOR Ram Ram ------------------------ Post message: Subscribe: - Un: - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 14, 2008 Report Share Posted November 14, 2008 Shree Hari- Something I have pondered upon for a very long time: Mankind is capable of acts of profound love and compassion, and also acts of stupendous evil. The demonic has been equated by people I certainly admire, in a nutshell as being without balance. A Sufi Saint I read about, made the observation that the Shatan was the ego. Sri Krishna, as noted in Gitaji, described what is demonic. My question is; how, when and why , was Evil born. With Respect and Divine Love, Mike Keenor ------------------------------ NEW POSTING Hari Om Question of Anil Bhanot emanates due to the term 'kaam' used in Scriptures for two different meanings. One is 'kaamna' (desire) . Another is for representing eight objects thereof viz smell (nose), sound (ears), touch(skin), taste(tongue), form(eyes), respect, praise and comfort. Reference by Anil for Kaam being one of the four is not for desire but for the above objects of desires. All these are pertaining to mind, body and ego ! Not to " self " . They and 'artha' are always under domain of " prarabdha " (fate/destiny- results of past deeds). Balance two viz Dharma and Moksha are for 'self' and hence " Purushartha " ( Present karma/efforts) plays dominant role there. Desire is the root cause of all evils. Whether it is subtle or intense as far as it is for objects of sense gratification, it is to be renounced. Objects of desire in themselves are harmless. They are outer elements. But " desire " is inside living in " Satan " ego ! Your desiring for the aforesaid eight objects and 'artha' does not cause receipt of them. It can only cause 'sorrow' for you. Mr Anil is adviced to read sadhak deliberations reg: desires in the Q - Greatest Astonishment , which Q shall be finally concluded tomorrow- to understand futility of desires in all circumstances. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ----------------------------- Dear Sadhakas, Namaste! Few words as I have understood, about Desire(Kaam) being one of the pillars of life, how can it be the root of evil? If one goes a little deeper into " desire " , generally most desires have the root in ignorant belief that " I am such and such person with " my " body, " my " mind, and " my " relationships, and therefore, " my " desires etc etc. " . Desires arising from such an individuality, such separation, cannot be satisfied come what may, and hence may prompt evil actions to fulfill non-existing " me " taken as true. Noble desires from such a person has the place in life, and hence is one of the pillars. But such noble and apparantly " personal desires " arise from Impersonal Being only which is what we really are! Thus, Noble desires(kaamas) are guided by Dharma through Karmas, with the goal of Moksha! To sum up: Personal desires stem from ignorance and hence are limited, selfish in nature, can be root of evil actions. " Person " is a mask(persona) behind which, only desires act! Impersonal desires are fulfilled,because they are in harmony with God's will, the very reason that results of one's action is not in his/her hand(gita) as an individual! Namaskar..........Pratap Bhatt ----------------------------- Dear Sadhakas, Namaste! On Sadhanaji's last response to Shashikalaji, I want to build it like this! It is a good stand point to say I am just a puppet dancing on His fingertips. But when combined with the paragraph above it where she says deep down there is only ONE, and I am THAT, it is true that I am not only pupper but Puppet Master also. " I " of course doesn't refer to anything perceived/conceived including body-mind-intellect which are also perceived and therefore limited objects. Cann't I say, I have created this Grand-Divine play for " MYSELF " in which I am the spectators, puppets, strings, and Master Fingertips? First perspective is of Humility to say I am puppet, the body-mind instruments, and the second one is that of Liberation, Freedom to play any Roles. This is consistent with Gita/Vedanta/Swamiji! Only ONE appearing to play many Roles! Please see this is not intellectual only! It is experientially available right now! Another point is that I have to know this is the stage on which I am playing the role, then only I can play role, otherwise I take it seriously and get attached to role! Namaskaras........Pratap Bhatt ------------------------------ PRIOR POSTING Dear Sadhika Shashikalaji,Pyaari Jeje,I do not need to say anything as you know all this for sure, but just want to write. A seeker of Knowledge know deep inside that there is only One existence. That One is no other than I. So he says-I am That!!! A devotee sees his beloved Krishna in all and says -TU hi Tu, but deep inside he knows that His Krishna and He is One. One multiplied and look Many, but those many can only be seen because that One exist. That One can exist without many but the many cannot exist without the One. So the appearance of many is just a illusion, a play, a leela. In this play I know I am just a puppet dancing on His fingertips.To create more thrill in this play He has loosen His string so we start thinking that we are independent but how far we can go with this so called free will ? Once I realize that I am a puppet and He, my beloved Krishna is holding my strings then why do I need to worry about my moves ? Why do I need free will ? I will better dance on His flute, and merge in His devine Love. Pyaari Jeje, forgive my ignorance, but that is how my Krishna wants me to be. Hope you will understand... Asuan jal seench seench prem bel boi Ab to bel fel gayi anand fal hoi... ( I planted the seed of Love and my tears watered this plant, now the plant has grown up and bearing fruits of bliss) With Love and Love and Love, my sweet jeje, a sadhika Sadhna Karigar ----------------------------- hari bol birth of Evil took place at the time god decided this mortal world to function this is as per Shrimad Bhagwat hari bol b.p.taneja ------------------------------ If Kaam (Desires) leads to evil then why is kaam one of the four pillars of life, artha, dharma, kaam, moksha? Insatiable kaam (desires) is another thing but Kaam or desire by itself surely cannot be the cause of evil? anil bhanot ------------------------------- Beloved seekers. I have been following this thread with great interest. From the first time i read it, i thought -- and continue to think -- that Lord Krishna said it well, when he responded to Arjuna's question about why men do things that seem horrible. The Lord said " Raj, Passion. Anger " . The Song Celestial tells me that there is no evil; only bad actions through the hands of angry men. Gary Poyssick Aum.... shanti shanti shanti ----------------------------- Dear sadaks, Your shadow and you. Your reflection in the mirror or water. Who are you? You can easily identify saying shadow and reflection is by object (Me). So the SAT is you and your shadows (Karmas) are your reflections. Bhagavan in Geetha said that from desire only anger comes, then jealousy etc. Since desire is seed of all actions, it is dangerous as one cannot know when the seed will manifest. Examples: Akrorra was ardent bhaktha of Sri Krishna. But later part of life he stole Samanthakamani (That gives gold) from Bhagavan. Desire for Gold NOT Bagavan. Mata Devaki very much gifted to be mother of Sri Krishna. After seeing Krishna and being with HIM will anyone of us have another desire other than Sri Krishna alone (like Radhe had). But Mata Devaki asked Krishna that it would have been nice if HIS elder brother were alive. Bhagavan brought back to life all his elder brothers and presented to his mother. The DESIRE not ended there she gave birth to another child younger brother of Sri Krishna known as Sathyaki. A Bhaktha known as Poothanam in 1645 lost his only son on the first birth anniversary. He sang song Nygappana (Malayalam) that why he needs children when his son Sri Krishna is there. Meant let my child go. No Desire. Alas Sri Krishna really came and sat on his lap. Poothanam was taken abode with body to Vaikunt by flying Viman at Mallapuram in Kerala in presence of many people like that of Sant Tukaram in the same period 16th century. Sadhaks We must desire for such type of Bakthi even in our perils The desire (Kaama) if not given by Bhagavan, we will be like animals. Animals have desires those are differently called instinct. Now the desire tool could be set (As one sets in computer) can be slowly turned towards Sat Sangh, Bhajan, Namasankeethan Etc. The brain has ratio and capacity. In the beginning the worldly desires will be more in ratio. But slowly by Sat Sangh/Sadhana the worldly desires keeps reducing and the taste of Bhakthi dominates. Once the taste of Bhakthi tasted the mind will ask more and more. Mind Tastes ignorance, it will ask more and more of ignorance, because it` s nature is so. But by Buddhi (Intellect- Vivechanam) one can feed the mind's direction. Manas never listens to you. Similarly turn all the 6 bad Gunas into correct direction making them good. Krodh (Anger) which we are tasting whole day, can slowly be turned towards oneself within thinking, " How bad I am. My stupid mind runs here and there, ultimately putting me in sorrow. My time management is worst, in seeing TV serials, talking about others. ETC " . This type of Krodh makes one purer and purer and turns mind to Bagavan. Jealosy- Become Jealous on looking at Sadhaks/gopies who practice more Bhakthi than you. Eventually the 6 Bad Gunas disappear melts away and mind becomes clear that you and the other person are the same. Sarvam Vasudevamayam. We can use knife to cut fruit or to cut ourselves. Choise is our. This is where we are indipendant. But when learnt to use this knife called Budhi to cut 6 Bad Gunas, we loose our indipendance and become dependant saying " It is all HIS leelas " . Jai Sri Krishna baiya sathyanarayan ------------------------------ PRIOR POSTING Hari Om 'How' , 'when' and 'why' the evil was born - this is the question. Answers is that when 'independence' was granted to individual souls of the conduct in this 'lila of God'- all three happenned together. Those who forget the 'rules of play' fall into the well of 'desire' - the term used for them is 'evil'. Those who listen to their conscience, conduct accordingly, the term used for them is 'good'. Powers accessible to humans include even control over certain functions of 'nature'. They can acquire super natural powers (siddhis) through meditation etc. When they acquire those powers (and exemptions from operation of certain laws) , and when they 'misutilse' those powers for 'self gratification' , then 'gods' incarnate and destroy their evilness in a fitting manner. To an outsider therefore these events seem to be 'violent' but in fact it is 're-establishing the laws pertaining to right conduct (dharma) ' . All sorts of 'evils' are present in one evil called 'desire' ! That is all which in my view is the essence. Scriptures from the outset of creation have laid down the principles and laws governing the creation. Those of us who follow those principles are called 'good'. Those who under sway of 'desires' flout the laws are called 'evil' . Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ----------------------------- I think you might ask if evil would exist if there were no humans around to label events as evil? Ravi Bakhsi ------------------------------ Jai Hanuman Either there is no " good " and no " evil " or absence of good is evil/ absence of evil is good. You see this world is a " divine play " . You are given " independence " to play. You can't be " dependent " and still " play " . All those advocating that a 'person doesn't have free will' are either too bondaged and therefore too ignorant of their " selves " or " too enlightened " therefore too ignorant of other " selves " (Self being the same in both the cases).. They are 'ignorant' definitely. (Afterall ignorance lies in ego- Right you are there, Brother) Misutilisation of that " independence " is called " evil " . Right utilisation of that is called " good " . Hence basically, it is a matter of utilisation. " Independence " is common in both !! This answers Mike's question - Since when? Answer is " Since the day one " !! Namaste Jee Jee Jee Shashikala The profound love and compassion is the root cause for the stupendous evil. The loving and compassionate mother (Mata Shakti) suckling her baby nurturing life becomes the murderous terror (Bhadra Kali) sucking the lives of any potential threat to the very love and compassion. That is nature. We need love and compassion to be comforted. So we seek it naturally. The problem is we get too complacent with such comfort and develop unquestioned dependancy on the same to an extent that any threat to this comfort becomes a threat for individual existence. The same loving and compassionate soul turns into apathy and destruction in rage if its foundation of love and compassion is at stake. Violence is born in peace and peace takes birth from the ashes of violence like a pheonyx bird in all living soceities. That is the quality of all the perceived emotions – recycling amongst their apposites. The very crave toward an imaginary " good " quality is the seed for one's flight away from its reflection – the " bad " quality. The very resent toward a preconceived " bad " quality is the seed for one's search for its conjugate – the " good " quality. I would say, the good and the bad are born in each other at the very instant either of them are conceived in one's cognition. All qualities of life (values and taboos alike) are concocted in one's perception with following fundamental qualities: 1. Every quality adapted in one's cognition instantly creates its predator in the image of its opposite quality in the very same cognitive medium becoming the " aja " (a prey) for its marauder. 2. No quality in one's perception can last for more than the instant it is born – every perception is, in other words, just an " aja " (one who is as good as having not taken birth, vanishing at the very instant it appears). 3. Every perception is forced to be an " aja " , a procreative creature cloning itself perpetually to retain its existence in continuity). 4. Every perception is meant to remain an " aja " (a persihable being at the mercy of its own illusive conductance of beieiving the perceived image or thought to be integral while it is actually a fractured heap of disconnected images lost into the oblivion of the past). One who realizes the nature of the very perception would not give any importance to them in any manner and hence can grow out of the miseries of all kinds as such: Indriyaanaam prithagbhaavamudayaastamayou cha yat | Prithagutpadyamaanaanaam mattvaa dheero na shochati || However, this cannot be attained successfully as far as we depend on the " aja " – the perishable, the recyclable, the manipulatable, the never-alive and ever-dead thoughts and perceptions – in terms of their own derivatives such as listening, watching, speaking, thinking, etc. as we perceive: Naayamaatmaa pravachanena labhyah | Na medhayaa bahuna shrutena || Any insistence for such urge to transcend the " aja " inherent in one's life would verily limit the individual to an " aja " , a sheep, an embodiment of ignorance as such. One who realizes the " aja " in every perception would verily transcend the same giving no particular attention to any such events and retaining no specificity of whatsoever quality for the same. Then the continuity that is actually inherent in all the events dwelling in The Aja, The Birthless Absolute, as IT is revealed to absorb the individual within ITSELF as such: Yamevaisha vrinute tena labhyah | Tasyaisha aatmaa vivrunute tanum svaam || Once The Birthless Absolute is attained in the absence of the sgnificance for the perishables, it reveals itself amongst the very objects and thoughts once perceived as perishables removing the imposter, the quality projected in our perception on each object, event and relation. Then where is the room for evil or for good? In my opinion, the good and its nemesis are never-existent in reality. If they seem to exist, they co-exist in one's perception – in that case, they both exist simultaneously in one's perception though the perceiver pretends to ignore or fails to acknowledge the presence of both together for circumstantial adaption. Respects. Naga Narayana ------------------------------- PRIOR POSTING Dear Sadhak, The nature of the world is dual. All opposites exists here. The source of evil and source of goodness is the same-Nature Arjuna asked similar question to Lord in Gitaji Ch 3:36 Arjuna said: O descendant of Vrsni, by what is one impelled to sinful acts, even unwillingly, as if engaged by force? And Krishna said : It is desire only, Arjuna, which is born out of the Rajoguna( mode of passion) and later transformed into wrath, and which is the all-devouring, sinful enemy of this world. Ch 3:37 He also said The mode of passion is born of unlimited desires and longings, O son of Kunti, and because of this one is bound to material fruitive activities. Ch14:7 This means due to dominance of Rajoguna, the desire or Kaam is born. And as Swamiji explained in simplest term Kaam is attachment towards outcome, liking and disliking.This " desire " is the root cause of all evils. With lots of love, A sadhika Sadhana Karigar ------------------------------ -Shree Hari- In the Abrahamic tradition, the eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, compares remarkably, well with B.Sathyanarayanji's statement inserted: 'Aggynanam (Evil) was born along with Gyana (Knowledge). ' Of course there is duality at this point, and then the Ego struts its stuff. I was interested to read respected Sadhaks commentaries, I feel that there is a Universal understanding of the root cause of Evil, 'That moment'. Yes I agree that Evil resides within us all, dogging us from birth to birth, a very good reason not to judge others, after all what Evil has been carried out by one in previous lifetimes. To desire the the truth with ones total being, is a two edge sword, Bhagwan in all his loving mercy will give all you search for, as much as one can bare . B.G.:- 73.Routed out is my illusion as I have gained my memory (knowledge) through your grace, Krishna! I am firm; my doubts are gone. I will act according to your word. With Respect and Divine Love, Mike Keenor ------------------------------- Loving Divine, Pranam. Mikeji, yes shatan is ego. To your question, a different perspective (not so different utlimately, please contemplate and let us know whether you get your answer or not, may be you already found your answer...) - How: by me giving birth to goodness... When: when I decided to operate under unnatural laws, i.e., my ignorance... or when I forgot advait. Why: I desired so when I was under the spell of ignorance... Hope this helps, if needed little detail explanation please let me know. Thanks. humble regards, alwasy at Thy Holy Feet ----------------------------- Dear Sadaks, The question of Sri Mikeji is--My question is; how, when and why , was Evil born. Because of desire evil gets birth. Evil gets into you at the moment the thought arises for DESIRE. Last is the question " Why " --- the answer is to satisfy you. If there was No evil you dont get your desires satisfied. Example: Adam And Eve. To eat an apple thought arose (When). Then action to eat apple took place (How) To satisfy eating apple (Why). Here the snake represents evil as the desires not in straigjht line i.e. mind goes yes or no. Apple represents object to which desires go. Adam and Eve represent whom evil swallows. Bhagavan in Geetha says Kaameyesu (Desires) -- Krothayesu (Anger) Etc. From desire arises Anger Etc B.Sathyanarayan ------------------------------ PRIOR POSTING Hari Om My understanding of Swamiji's message is that the evil gets established in the Ego and does not leave you - till you leave that, in other words till you refuse to accept that the evil is in you. Why one should not discuss about the same? Is it not a problem of humanity at large? It stays and has capacity to stay in your " svabhav " (nature) till you amend your svabhav. With your " subtle body " it goes with you even after your death. One should not whisk away so easily ! If it does not stay then why God has to incarnate in every yuga to re-establish Dharma (righteousness)? Where is the need for Gita? Where is the need for Saints like Swami Ramsukhdasji Maharaj? Why one should amend his " svabhav " (nature) ? We must address evil. We can't afford to ignore it so easily. In the end to get rid of it - Don't accept it in you ! That is true. But not like this !! Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ------------------------- PRIOR POSTING :Shree Hari: Ram Ram. No use searching for 'how evil was born?', 'when evil was born?' and 'why was evil born?' as Swamiji said,'what is born, will die' and so nothing to find 'how, when, why' of what will not stay. Ram Ram. Sarvottam ------------------------------ Dear Sadhakas, Namaste! Mikeji's question is born of contemplation and I am sure he has his answer too! I see Evil is doing onto " others " that one doesn't want done on him/her. Any relationship, potentially evil or otherwise, is possible only when there is " one " and therefore, necessarily, " other " . As Sufi saint rightly put it Satan was/is the Ego, ego being the notion of " one " , relative only to " other " . This is believing " one " as separate from " other " as individuals. This is why evil actions are possible just as acts of profound love and compassion are possible towards seemingly " others " . If there is only ONE, non-dual(one without a second), no relationship can exist, ONE feeling Complete in SELF. Separate bodies based on space between them offers no proof of our feeling separations. Minds are conditioned differently also offers no proof either, because in reality they all are ONE Consciousness appearing as many in ignorance, just as Ocean appearing as waves. Thus Ego, being the notion making us believe divided is the root cause of evil. And it is entirely due to ignorance of our True nature of ONENESS, non-dual Consciousness! If we truly, truly let go of this notion and feel, think and act from this underlying Oneness on the plain of surface diversity(world) we cannot do any evil acts! This is how I would answer " how and why " of evil actions. " When did this evil start? " cannot be answered in time frame as Ignorance of one's true nature is beginningless (Upanishadas). This is because upon Realization one knows " there was/is never any ignorance " . If there is knowing of " ignorance " , then, there is one who knows! Practically one can say that the original sin(eating apple) is this individuality! Namaskaras......... Pratap Bhatt ------------------------------ Good and bad reside within everybody. It is upto us to choose. In this Kaliyug one finds more bad people because they are chasing illusions which they feel will make them happy and one up on others. For those who want moksha or liberation from endless deaths and births will only do good karmas so that they will attain moksha earlier. Hari Shanker Deo ------------------------------ Dear Sadaks, Aggynanam (Evil) was born along with Gyana (Knowledge). It is said in Uoanashids and Vedas that Evil`s birth not over Anatha Koti Kalpa Kaalam. Means the bigining not known. It is also said that the creation and (Maha Pralayam) destruction was going on for several times. Bagavan Vishnu told Markandeyan Maha Rishi the following: When Maha Pralayam takes place the water cover the whole earth, the water and earth is swallowed by Pralayagni (The fire one sees in galaxies speard over millions of miles), Pralayagni is swallowed by Pralaya Vaayu (wind one can never dream off), The pralaya Vaayu takes abode in Space, and the whole space in Maha Vishnu. Again the creation starts. This what going on. So the evil comes in along with creation. Evil plays role of taking the creation by 4 yugas to an end. Evil is there in untold actions. In the begining When fire was discovered earth stared polluting, from fire cooking which gave us unnatural food, cooked food gives us aging (Normally Man said to be 12 Ft tall and life span was 300 years as per scientific finding of human body design, one can see today in Musium the sword of kings 6 ft long weighing 20/25 Kg), So man was heafty to carry that weight. Sri Treta Yug (Sri Rama) period it is said that woman gave birth only on completion of 12 months. Now it has come to 9 months. From these actions and food Evil multiplied more and more to greater level. When evil becomes the most the Dharma is destroying. To save that Dharma Bagavan appears as KALKI Avatar. B.Sathyanarayan ------------------------------ GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: 1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify their doubts related to Gitaji shalokas. Therefore, responses which further clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be posted. 2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to substantiate your response. 3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas 4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting sadhaka's time. 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only. 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other organizations. 7. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone number, address etc. 8. Please do not address the response to a particular individual since the message is going to the entire group. 9. Due to the large readership, all responses may not be posted. 10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if content is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the group. 11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use to Sanskrit words only, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit bracketed wherever possible. MODERATOR Ram Ram ------------------------ Post message: Subscribe: - Un: - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 17, 2008 Report Share Posted November 17, 2008 Shree Hari- Something I have pondered upon for a very long time: Mankind is capable of acts of profound love and compassion, and also acts of stupendous evil. The demonic has been equated by people I certainly admire, in a nutshell as being without balance. A Sufi Saint I read about, made the observation that the Shatan was the ego. Sri Krishna, as noted in Gitaji, described what is demonic. My question is; how, when and why , was Evil born. With Respect and Divine Love, Mike Keenor ------------------------------ NEW POSTING -Shree Hari- As this was my question it would be wrong for me not to thank all Sadhaks for the wise council. It seems that desire is considered to be the root cause of evil. Dwelling on this, from my humble view point these desires reflect the great illusion of duality. Maybe most graphically illustrated in ones desire for the 'Beloved Lord' , in other words one sees oneself separated from Bhagwan, which is the great illusion. In the accounts of two people I have studied. Both these souls, after a long period of reaching for 'The Divine', achieved a state, although expressed in a different manner, expressed the same realisation. Bede Griffiths' experienced the Divine Universal Love, and said that he now understood the complimentary of opposites. Irena Tweedie said many beautiful things , and at the end of her long awakening she wrote; " Love for the unlimited is also unlimited; thats why our hearts have to be broken and become nothing to accommodate the Unlimited " . And poignantly she ended her account, " All this I know. My life is offered to You (Bhagwan). You take over. And may God help me... Both these Souls were returning home to the Source. Falling into the arms of Father. I cannot see where there is any place for desire. To move to a place beyond the mind. I noted also in the latest Sadhaka post: B.G. 5:3 O' Mighty-armed One ! That man who neither hates, nor desires anything, he is eligible to be called a " karmayogi " and an eternal sannyâsi (renunciate); because being free from dualities (pairs of opposites), he is happily liberated from worldly bondages. The one that gave me guidance and support when I most needed it, suggested I read Irena Tweedie. The one who was a fellow traveler, said, " Mike you should read The Bhagavad Gita " As for The Bede I simply found him. As I found you dear Sadhaks. With Respect and Divine Love, Mike Keenor ------------------------------ Dear Sadhak, You are absolutely right Pratap Bhai, thanks for beautifully expanding, explaining the answer. Yes, this is the ultimate truth-I am the puppet, the string, the puppet master, the show, and the watcher. Nothing else exist except " I " . Thanks again. with lots of love, a sadhika Sadhna Karigar ------------------------------- PRIOR POSTING Hari Om Question of Anil Bhanot emanates due to the term 'kaam' used in Scriptures for two different meanings. One is 'kaamna' (desire) . Another is for representing eight objects thereof viz smell (nose), sound (ears), touch(skin), taste(tongue), form(eyes), respect, praise and comfort. Reference by Anil for Kaam being one of the four is not for desire but for the above objects of desires. All these are pertaining to mind, body and ego ! Not to " self " . They and 'artha' are always under domain of " prarabdha " (fate/destiny- results of past deeds). Balance two viz Dharma and Moksha are for 'self' and hence " Purushartha " ( Present karma/efforts) plays dominant role there. Desire is the root cause of all evils. Whether it is subtle or intense as far as it is for objects of sense gratification, it is to be renounced. Objects of desire in themselves are harmless. They are outer elements. But " desire " is inside living in " Satan " ego ! Your desiring for the aforesaid eight objects and 'artha' does not cause receipt of them. It can only cause 'sorrow' for you. Mr Anil is adviced to read sadhak deliberations reg: desires in the Q - Greatest Astonishment , which Q shall be finally concluded tomorrow- to understand futility of desires in all circumstances. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ----------------------------- Dear Sadhakas, Namaste! Few words as I have understood, about Desire(Kaam) being one of the pillars of life, how can it be the root of evil? If one goes a little deeper into " desire " , generally most desires have the root in ignorant belief that " I am such and such person with " my " body, " my " mind, and " my " relationships, and therefore, " my " desires etc etc. " . Desires arising from such an individuality, such separation, cannot be satisfied come what may, and hence may prompt evil actions to fulfill non-existing " me " taken as true. Noble desires from such a person has the place in life, and hence is one of the pillars. But such noble and apparantly " personal desires " arise from Impersonal Being only which is what we really are! Thus, Noble desires(kaamas) are guided by Dharma through Karmas, with the goal of Moksha! To sum up: Personal desires stem from ignorance and hence are limited, selfish in nature, can be root of evil actions. " Person " is a mask(persona) behind which, only desires act! Impersonal desires are fulfilled,because they are in harmony with God's will, the very reason that results of one's action is not in his/her hand(gita) as an individual! Namaskar..........Pratap Bhatt ----------------------------- Dear Sadhakas, Namaste! On Sadhanaji's last response to Shashikalaji, I want to build it like this! It is a good stand point to say I am just a puppet dancing on His fingertips. But when combined with the paragraph above it where she says deep down there is only ONE, and I am THAT, it is true that I am not only pupper but Puppet Master also. " I " of course doesn't refer to anything perceived/conceived including body-mind-intellect which are also perceived and therefore limited objects. Cann't I say, I have created this Grand-Divine play for " MYSELF " in which I am the spectators, puppets, strings, and Master Fingertips? First perspective is of Humility to say I am puppet, the body-mind instruments, and the second one is that of Liberation, Freedom to play any Roles. This is consistent with Gita/Vedanta/Swamiji! Only ONE appearing to play many Roles! Please see this is not intellectual only! It is experientially available right now! Another point is that I have to know this is the stage on which I am playing the role, then only I can play role, otherwise I take it seriously and get attached to role! Namaskaras........Pratap Bhatt ------------------------------ PRIOR POSTING Dear Sadhika Shashikalaji,Pyaari Jeje,I do not need to say anything as you know all this for sure, but just want to write. A seeker of Knowledge know deep inside that there is only One existence. That One is no other than I. So he says-I am That!!! A devotee sees his beloved Krishna in all and says -TU hi Tu, but deep inside he knows that His Krishna and He is One. One multiplied and look Many, but those many can only be seen because that One exist. That One can exist without many but the many cannot exist without the One. So the appearance of many is just a illusion, a play, a leela. In this play I know I am just a puppet dancing on His fingertips.To create more thrill in this play He has loosen His string so we start thinking that we are independent but how far we can go with this so called free will ? Once I realize that I am a puppet and He, my beloved Krishna is holding my strings then why do I need to worry about my moves ? Why do I need free will ? I will better dance on His flute, and merge in His devine Love. Pyaari Jeje, forgive my ignorance, but that is how my Krishna wants me to be. Hope you will understand... Asuan jal seench seench prem bel boi Ab to bel fel gayi anand fal hoi... ( I planted the seed of Love and my tears watered this plant, now the plant has grown up and bearing fruits of bliss) With Love and Love and Love, my sweet jeje, a sadhika Sadhna Karigar ----------------------------- hari bol birth of Evil took place at the time god decided this mortal world to function this is as per Shrimad Bhagwat hari bol b.p.taneja ------------------------------ If Kaam (Desires) leads to evil then why is kaam one of the four pillars of life, artha, dharma, kaam, moksha? Insatiable kaam (desires) is another thing but Kaam or desire by itself surely cannot be the cause of evil? anil bhanot ------------------------------- Beloved seekers. I have been following this thread with great interest. From the first time i read it, i thought -- and continue to think -- that Lord Krishna said it well, when he responded to Arjuna's question about why men do things that seem horrible. The Lord said " Raj, Passion. Anger " . The Song Celestial tells me that there is no evil; only bad actions through the hands of angry men. Gary Poyssick Aum.... shanti shanti shanti ----------------------------- Dear sadaks, Your shadow and you. Your reflection in the mirror or water. Who are you? You can easily identify saying shadow and reflection is by object (Me). So the SAT is you and your shadows (Karmas) are your reflections. Bhagavan in Geetha said that from desire only anger comes, then jealousy etc. Since desire is seed of all actions, it is dangerous as one cannot know when the seed will manifest. Examples: Akrorra was ardent bhaktha of Sri Krishna. But later part of life he stole Samanthakamani (That gives gold) from Bhagavan. Desire for Gold NOT Bagavan. Mata Devaki very much gifted to be mother of Sri Krishna. After seeing Krishna and being with HIM will anyone of us have another desire other than Sri Krishna alone (like Radhe had). But Mata Devaki asked Krishna that it would have been nice if HIS elder brother were alive. Bhagavan brought back to life all his elder brothers and presented to his mother. The DESIRE not ended there she gave birth to another child younger brother of Sri Krishna known as Sathyaki. A Bhaktha known as Poothanam in 1645 lost his only son on the first birth anniversary. He sang song Nygappana (Malayalam) that why he needs children when his son Sri Krishna is there. Meant let my child go. No Desire. Alas Sri Krishna really came and sat on his lap. Poothanam was taken abode with body to Vaikunt by flying Viman at Mallapuram in Kerala in presence of many people like that of Sant Tukaram in the same period 16th century. Sadhaks We must desire for such type of Bakthi even in our perils The desire (Kaama) if not given by Bhagavan, we will be like animals. Animals have desires those are differently called instinct. Now the desire tool could be set (As one sets in computer) can be slowly turned towards Sat Sangh, Bhajan, Namasankeethan Etc. The brain has ratio and capacity. In the beginning the worldly desires will be more in ratio. But slowly by Sat Sangh/Sadhana the worldly desires keeps reducing and the taste of Bhakthi dominates. Once the taste of Bhakthi tasted the mind will ask more and more. Mind Tastes ignorance, it will ask more and more of ignorance, because it` s nature is so. But by Buddhi (Intellect- Vivechanam) one can feed the mind's direction. Manas never listens to you. Similarly turn all the 6 bad Gunas into correct direction making them good. Krodh (Anger) which we are tasting whole day, can slowly be turned towards oneself within thinking, " How bad I am. My stupid mind runs here and there, ultimately putting me in sorrow. My time management is worst, in seeing TV serials, talking about others. ETC " . This type of Krodh makes one purer and purer and turns mind to Bagavan. Jealosy- Become Jealous on looking at Sadhaks/gopies who practice more Bhakthi than you. Eventually the 6 Bad Gunas disappear melts away and mind becomes clear that you and the other person are the same. Sarvam Vasudevamayam. We can use knife to cut fruit or to cut ourselves. Choise is our. This is where we are indipendant. But when learnt to use this knife called Budhi to cut 6 Bad Gunas, we loose our indipendance and become dependant saying " It is all HIS leelas " . Jai Sri Krishna baiya sathyanarayan ------------------------------ PRIOR POSTING Hari Om 'How' , 'when' and 'why' the evil was born - this is the question. Answers is that when 'independence' was granted to individual souls of the conduct in this 'lila of God'- all three happenned together. Those who forget the 'rules of play' fall into the well of 'desire' - the term used for them is 'evil'. Those who listen to their conscience, conduct accordingly, the term used for them is 'good'. Powers accessible to humans include even control over certain functions of 'nature'. They can acquire super natural powers (siddhis) through meditation etc. When they acquire those powers (and exemptions from operation of certain laws) , and when they 'misutilse' those powers for 'self gratification' , then 'gods' incarnate and destroy their evilness in a fitting manner. To an outsider therefore these events seem to be 'violent' but in fact it is 're-establishing the laws pertaining to right conduct (dharma) ' . All sorts of 'evils' are present in one evil called 'desire' ! That is all which in my view is the essence. Scriptures from the outset of creation have laid down the principles and laws governing the creation. Those of us who follow those principles are called 'good'. Those who under sway of 'desires' flout the laws are called 'evil' . Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ----------------------------- I think you might ask if evil would exist if there were no humans around to label events as evil? Ravi Bakhsi ------------------------------ Jai Hanuman Either there is no " good " and no " evil " or absence of good is evil/ absence of evil is good. You see this world is a " divine play " . You are given " independence " to play. You can't be " dependent " and still " play " . All those advocating that a 'person doesn't have free will' are either too bondaged and therefore too ignorant of their " selves " or " too enlightened " therefore too ignorant of other " selves " (Self being the same in both the cases).. They are 'ignorant' definitely. (Afterall ignorance lies in ego- Right you are there, Brother) Misutilisation of that " independence " is called " evil " . Right utilisation of that is called " good " . Hence basically, it is a matter of utilisation. " Independence " is common in both !! This answers Mike's question - Since when? Answer is " Since the day one " !! Namaste Jee Jee Jee Shashikala The profound love and compassion is the root cause for the stupendous evil. The loving and compassionate mother (Mata Shakti) suckling her baby nurturing life becomes the murderous terror (Bhadra Kali) sucking the lives of any potential threat to the very love and compassion. That is nature. We need love and compassion to be comforted. So we seek it naturally. The problem is we get too complacent with such comfort and develop unquestioned dependancy on the same to an extent that any threat to this comfort becomes a threat for individual existence. The same loving and compassionate soul turns into apathy and destruction in rage if its foundation of love and compassion is at stake. Violence is born in peace and peace takes birth from the ashes of violence like a pheonyx bird in all living soceities. That is the quality of all the perceived emotions – recycling amongst their apposites. The very crave toward an imaginary " good " quality is the seed for one's flight away from its reflection – the " bad " quality. The very resent toward a preconceived " bad " quality is the seed for one's search for its conjugate – the " good " quality. I would say, the good and the bad are born in each other at the very instant either of them are conceived in one's cognition. All qualities of life (values and taboos alike) are concocted in one's perception with following fundamental qualities: 1. Every quality adapted in one's cognition instantly creates its predator in the image of its opposite quality in the very same cognitive medium becoming the " aja " (a prey) for its marauder. 2. No quality in one's perception can last for more than the instant it is born – every perception is, in other words, just an " aja " (one who is as good as having not taken birth, vanishing at the very instant it appears). 3. Every perception is forced to be an " aja " , a procreative creature cloning itself perpetually to retain its existence in continuity). 4. Every perception is meant to remain an " aja " (a persihable being at the mercy of its own illusive conductance of beieiving the perceived image or thought to be integral while it is actually a fractured heap of disconnected images lost into the oblivion of the past). One who realizes the nature of the very perception would not give any importance to them in any manner and hence can grow out of the miseries of all kinds as such: Indriyaanaam prithagbhaavamudayaastamayou cha yat | Prithagutpadyamaanaanaam mattvaa dheero na shochati || However, this cannot be attained successfully as far as we depend on the " aja " – the perishable, the recyclable, the manipulatable, the never-alive and ever-dead thoughts and perceptions – in terms of their own derivatives such as listening, watching, speaking, thinking, etc. as we perceive: Naayamaatmaa pravachanena labhyah | Na medhayaa bahuna shrutena || Any insistence for such urge to transcend the " aja " inherent in one's life would verily limit the individual to an " aja " , a sheep, an embodiment of ignorance as such. One who realizes the " aja " in every perception would verily transcend the same giving no particular attention to any such events and retaining no specificity of whatsoever quality for the same. Then the continuity that is actually inherent in all the events dwelling in The Aja, The Birthless Absolute, as IT is revealed to absorb the individual within ITSELF as such: Yamevaisha vrinute tena labhyah | Tasyaisha aatmaa vivrunute tanum svaam || Once The Birthless Absolute is attained in the absence of the sgnificance for the perishables, it reveals itself amongst the very objects and thoughts once perceived as perishables removing the imposter, the quality projected in our perception on each object, event and relation. Then where is the room for evil or for good? In my opinion, the good and its nemesis are never-existent in reality. If they seem to exist, they co-exist in one's perception – in that case, they both exist simultaneously in one's perception though the perceiver pretends to ignore or fails to acknowledge the presence of both together for circumstantial adaption. Respects. Naga Narayana ------------------------------- PRIOR POSTING Dear Sadhak, The nature of the world is dual. All opposites exists here. The source of evil and source of goodness is the same-Nature Arjuna asked similar question to Lord in Gitaji Ch 3:36 Arjuna said: O descendant of Vrsni, by what is one impelled to sinful acts, even unwillingly, as if engaged by force? And Krishna said : It is desire only, Arjuna, which is born out of the Rajoguna( mode of passion) and later transformed into wrath, and which is the all-devouring, sinful enemy of this world. Ch 3:37 He also said The mode of passion is born of unlimited desires and longings, O son of Kunti, and because of this one is bound to material fruitive activities. Ch14:7 This means due to dominance of Rajoguna, the desire or Kaam is born. And as Swamiji explained in simplest term Kaam is attachment towards outcome, liking and disliking.This " desire " is the root cause of all evils. With lots of love, A sadhika Sadhana Karigar ------------------------------ -Shree Hari- In the Abrahamic tradition, the eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, compares remarkably, well with B.Sathyanarayanji's statement inserted: 'Aggynanam (Evil) was born along with Gyana (Knowledge). ' Of course there is duality at this point, and then the Ego struts its stuff. I was interested to read respected Sadhaks commentaries, I feel that there is a Universal understanding of the root cause of Evil, 'That moment'. Yes I agree that Evil resides within us all, dogging us from birth to birth, a very good reason not to judge others, after all what Evil has been carried out by one in previous lifetimes. To desire the the truth with ones total being, is a two edge sword, Bhagwan in all his loving mercy will give all you search for, as much as one can bare . B.G.:- 73.Routed out is my illusion as I have gained my memory (knowledge) through your grace, Krishna! I am firm; my doubts are gone. I will act according to your word. With Respect and Divine Love, Mike Keenor ------------------------------- Loving Divine, Pranam. Mikeji, yes shatan is ego. To your question, a different perspective (not so different utlimately, please contemplate and let us know whether you get your answer or not, may be you already found your answer...) - How: by me giving birth to goodness... When: when I decided to operate under unnatural laws, i.e., my ignorance... or when I forgot advait. Why: I desired so when I was under the spell of ignorance... Hope this helps, if needed little detail explanation please let me know. Thanks. humble regards, alwasy at Thy Holy Feet ----------------------------- Dear Sadaks, The question of Sri Mikeji is--My question is; how, when and why , was Evil born. Because of desire evil gets birth. Evil gets into you at the moment the thought arises for DESIRE. Last is the question " Why " --- the answer is to satisfy you. If there was No evil you dont get your desires satisfied. Example: Adam And Eve. To eat an apple thought arose (When). Then action to eat apple took place (How) To satisfy eating apple (Why). Here the snake represents evil as the desires not in straigjht line i.e. mind goes yes or no. Apple represents object to which desires go. Adam and Eve represent whom evil swallows. Bhagavan in Geetha says Kaameyesu (Desires) -- Krothayesu (Anger) Etc. From desire arises Anger Etc B.Sathyanarayan ------------------------------ PRIOR POSTING Hari Om My understanding of Swamiji's message is that the evil gets established in the Ego and does not leave you - till you leave that, in other words till you refuse to accept that the evil is in you. Why one should not discuss about the same? Is it not a problem of humanity at large? It stays and has capacity to stay in your " svabhav " (nature) till you amend your svabhav. With your " subtle body " it goes with you even after your death. One should not whisk away so easily ! If it does not stay then why God has to incarnate in every yuga to re-establish Dharma (righteousness)? Where is the need for Gita? Where is the need for Saints like Swami Ramsukhdasji Maharaj? Why one should amend his " svabhav " (nature) ? We must address evil. We can't afford to ignore it so easily. In the end to get rid of it - Don't accept it in you ! That is true. But not like this !! Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ------------------------- PRIOR POSTING :Shree Hari: Ram Ram. No use searching for 'how evil was born?', 'when evil was born?' and 'why was evil born?' as Swamiji said,'what is born, will die' and so nothing to find 'how, when, why' of what will not stay. Ram Ram. Sarvottam ------------------------------ Dear Sadhakas, Namaste! Mikeji's question is born of contemplation and I am sure he has his answer too! I see Evil is doing onto " others " that one doesn't want done on him/her. Any relationship, potentially evil or otherwise, is possible only when there is " one " and therefore, necessarily, " other " . As Sufi saint rightly put it Satan was/is the Ego, ego being the notion of " one " , relative only to " other " . This is believing " one " as separate from " other " as individuals. This is why evil actions are possible just as acts of profound love and compassion are possible towards seemingly " others " . If there is only ONE, non-dual(one without a second), no relationship can exist, ONE feeling Complete in SELF. Separate bodies based on space between them offers no proof of our feeling separations. Minds are conditioned differently also offers no proof either, because in reality they all are ONE Consciousness appearing as many in ignorance, just as Ocean appearing as waves. Thus Ego, being the notion making us believe divided is the root cause of evil. And it is entirely due to ignorance of our True nature of ONENESS, non-dual Consciousness! If we truly, truly let go of this notion and feel, think and act from this underlying Oneness on the plain of surface diversity(world) we cannot do any evil acts! This is how I would answer " how and why " of evil actions. " When did this evil start? " cannot be answered in time frame as Ignorance of one's true nature is beginningless (Upanishadas). This is because upon Realization one knows " there was/is never any ignorance " . If there is knowing of " ignorance " , then, there is one who knows! Practically one can say that the original sin(eating apple) is this individuality! Namaskaras......... Pratap Bhatt ------------------------------ Good and bad reside within everybody. It is upto us to choose. In this Kaliyug one finds more bad people because they are chasing illusions which they feel will make them happy and one up on others. For those who want moksha or liberation from endless deaths and births will only do good karmas so that they will attain moksha earlier. Hari Shanker Deo ------------------------------ Dear Sadaks, Aggynanam (Evil) was born along with Gyana (Knowledge). It is said in Uoanashids and Vedas that Evil`s birth not over Anatha Koti Kalpa Kaalam. Means the bigining not known. It is also said that the creation and (Maha Pralayam) destruction was going on for several times. Bagavan Vishnu told Markandeyan Maha Rishi the following: When Maha Pralayam takes place the water cover the whole earth, the water and earth is swallowed by Pralayagni (The fire one sees in galaxies speard over millions of miles), Pralayagni is swallowed by Pralaya Vaayu (wind one can never dream off), The pralaya Vaayu takes abode in Space, and the whole space in Maha Vishnu. Again the creation starts. This what going on. So the evil comes in along with creation. Evil plays role of taking the creation by 4 yugas to an end. Evil is there in untold actions. In the begining When fire was discovered earth stared polluting, from fire cooking which gave us unnatural food, cooked food gives us aging (Normally Man said to be 12 Ft tall and life span was 300 years as per scientific finding of human body design, one can see today in Musium the sword of kings 6 ft long weighing 20/25 Kg), So man was heafty to carry that weight. Sri Treta Yug (Sri Rama) period it is said that woman gave birth only on completion of 12 months. Now it has come to 9 months. From these actions and food Evil multiplied more and more to greater level. When evil becomes the most the Dharma is destroying. To save that Dharma Bagavan appears as KALKI Avatar. B.Sathyanarayan ------------------------------ GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: 1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify their doubts related to Gitaji shalokas. Therefore, responses which further clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be posted. 2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to substantiate your response. 3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas 4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting sadhaka's time. 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only. 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other organizations. 7. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone number, address etc. 8. Please do not address the response to a particular individual since the message is going to the entire group. 9. Due to the large readership, all responses may not be posted. 10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if content is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the group. 11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use to Sanskrit words only, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit bracketed wherever possible. MODERATOR Ram Ram ------------------------ Post message: Subscribe: - Un: - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 19, 2008 Report Share Posted November 19, 2008 Shree Hari- Something I have pondered upon for a very long time: Mankind is capable of acts of profound love and compassion, and also acts of stupendous evil. The demonic has been equated by people I certainly admire, in a nutshell as being without balance. A Sufi Saint I read about, made the observation that the Shatan was the ego. Sri Krishna, as noted in Gitaji, described what is demonic. My question is; how, when and why , was Evil born. With Respect and Divine Love, Mike Keenor ------------------------------ NEW POSTING Dear sadaks, Like the great saints, they started with love of GOD, sang songs in HIS praise, they dwelled in meditation, many of them even spoke and seen GOD, but if we carefully see their later part of their life, their statement says that they are one with GOD. So one starts with something and gets one with God. We are puppets of our own Karmas. There is no strings pulled by GOD or anyone. The strings are made by us and we pull our own srtings. After we realize this, then NO strings of desire/Karmas and No puppet, but one with God. Jai Sri Krishna baiya sathyanarayan ------------------------------ -Shree Hari- An addendum to my last comment, that dawned on me. Applying boolean logic to the concept of desire in this manner: To return to the state of oneness with God, desire for God. Now desire for 'Not' God, means just that, desire for the illusions that holds one in bondage.(The primordial falling away) Just a thought. With Respect and Divine Love. mike.keenor ------------------------------ In my eyes, if Bede Griffiths discovered the divine love he would have not been so anti hindu. Divine love shoul lead to emancipation from all prejudice. By the way Sufis are a remanant of hindu vedanta in the middle-east and nothing whatsoever to do with Islam. Ravi Bakhsi ------------------------------ Hare Krishna Mikeji you said Dwelling on this, from my humble view point these desires reflect the great illusion of duality. Maybe most graphically illustrated in ones desire for the 'Beloved Lord', in other words one sees oneself separated from Bhagwan, which is the great illusion. From this what I understand is that desire of Bhagwan is a mistake (illusion) in itself. If this is so then what else should a sadhak do? As far as I know a sadhak's job is only to desire Bhagwan and renounce world. And also Bhagwan's desire is not a desire but a necessity (avashyakta). So why is it a mistake to feel His avashyakta? Please clarify Thanks, Varun P. Paprunia ------------------------------ PRIOR POSTING -Shree Hari- As this was my question it would be wrong for me not to thank all Sadhaks for the wise council. It seems that desire is considered to be the root cause of evil. Dwelling on this, from my humble view point these desires reflect the great illusion of duality. Maybe most graphically illustrated in ones desire for the 'Beloved Lord' , in other words one sees oneself separated from Bhagwan, which is the great illusion. In the accounts of two people I have studied. Both these souls, after a long period of reaching for 'The Divine', achieved a state, although expressed in a different manner, expressed the same realisation. Bede Griffiths' experienced the Divine Universal Love, and said that he now understood the complimentary of opposites. Irena Tweedie said many beautiful things , and at the end of her long awakening she wrote; " Love for the unlimited is also unlimited; thats why our hearts have to be broken and become nothing to accommodate the Unlimited " . And poignantly she ended her account, " All this I know. My life is offered to You (Bhagwan). You take over. And may God help me... Both these Souls were returning home to the Source. Falling into the arms of Father. I cannot see where there is any place for desire. To move to a place beyond the mind. I noted also in the latest Sadhaka post: B.G. 5:3 O' Mighty-armed One ! That man who neither hates, nor desires anything, he is eligible to be called a " karmayogi " and an eternal sannyâsi (renunciate); because being free from dualities (pairs of opposites), he is happily liberated from worldly bondages. The one that gave me guidance and support when I most needed it, suggested I read Irena Tweedie. The one who was a fellow traveler, said, " Mike you should read The Bhagavad Gita " As for The Bede I simply found him. As I found you dear Sadhaks. With Respect and Divine Love, Mike Keenor ------------------------------ Dear Sadhak, You are absolutely right Pratap Bhai, thanks for beautifully expanding, explaining the answer. Yes, this is the ultimate truth-I am the puppet, the string, the puppet master, the show, and the watcher. Nothing else exist except " I " . Thanks again. with lots of love, a sadhika Sadhna Karigar ------------------------------- PRIOR POSTING Hari Om Question of Anil Bhanot emanates due to the term 'kaam' used in Scriptures for two different meanings. One is 'kaamna' (desire) . Another is for representing eight objects thereof viz smell (nose), sound (ears), touch(skin), taste(tongue), form(eyes), respect, praise and comfort. Reference by Anil for Kaam being one of the four is not for desire but for the above objects of desires. All these are pertaining to mind, body and ego ! Not to " self " . They and 'artha' are always under domain of " prarabdha " (fate/destiny- results of past deeds). Balance two viz Dharma and Moksha are for 'self' and hence " Purushartha " ( Present karma/efforts) plays dominant role there. Desire is the root cause of all evils. Whether it is subtle or intense as far as it is for objects of sense gratification, it is to be renounced. Objects of desire in themselves are harmless. They are outer elements. But " desire " is inside living in " Satan " ego ! Your desiring for the aforesaid eight objects and 'artha' does not cause receipt of them. It can only cause 'sorrow' for you. Mr Anil is adviced to read sadhak deliberations reg: desires in the Q - Greatest Astonishment , which Q shall be finally concluded tomorrow- to understand futility of desires in all circumstances. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ----------------------------- Dear Sadhakas, Namaste! Few words as I have understood, about Desire(Kaam) being one of the pillars of life, how can it be the root of evil? If one goes a little deeper into " desire " , generally most desires have the root in ignorant belief that " I am such and such person with " my " body, " my " mind, and " my " relationships, and therefore, " my " desires etc etc. " . Desires arising from such an individuality, such separation, cannot be satisfied come what may, and hence may prompt evil actions to fulfill non-existing " me " taken as true. Noble desires from such a person has the place in life, and hence is one of the pillars. But such noble and apparantly " personal desires " arise from Impersonal Being only which is what we really are! Thus, Noble desires(kaamas) are guided by Dharma through Karmas, with the goal of Moksha! To sum up: Personal desires stem from ignorance and hence are limited, selfish in nature, can be root of evil actions. " Person " is a mask(persona) behind which, only desires act! Impersonal desires are fulfilled,because they are in harmony with God's will, the very reason that results of one's action is not in his/her hand(gita) as an individual! Namaskar..........Pratap Bhatt ----------------------------- Dear Sadhakas, Namaste! On Sadhanaji's last response to Shashikalaji, I want to build it like this! It is a good stand point to say I am just a puppet dancing on His fingertips. But when combined with the paragraph above it where she says deep down there is only ONE, and I am THAT, it is true that I am not only pupper but Puppet Master also. " I " of course doesn't refer to anything perceived/conceived including body-mind-intellect which are also perceived and therefore limited objects. Cann't I say, I have created this Grand-Divine play for " MYSELF " in which I am the spectators, puppets, strings, and Master Fingertips? First perspective is of Humility to say I am puppet, the body-mind instruments, and the second one is that of Liberation, Freedom to play any Roles. This is consistent with Gita/Vedanta/Swamiji! Only ONE appearing to play many Roles! Please see this is not intellectual only! It is experientially available right now! Another point is that I have to know this is the stage on which I am playing the role, then only I can play role, otherwise I take it seriously and get attached to role! Namaskaras........Pratap Bhatt ------------------------------ PRIOR POSTING Dear Sadhika Shashikalaji,Pyaari Jeje,I do not need to say anything as you know all this for sure, but just want to write. A seeker of Knowledge know deep inside that there is only One existence. That One is no other than I. So he says-I am That!!! A devotee sees his beloved Krishna in all and says -TU hi Tu, but deep inside he knows that His Krishna and He is One. One multiplied and look Many, but those many can only be seen because that One exist. That One can exist without many but the many cannot exist without the One. So the appearance of many is just a illusion, a play, a leela. In this play I know I am just a puppet dancing on His fingertips.To create more thrill in this play He has loosen His string so we start thinking that we are independent but how far we can go with this so called free will ? Once I realize that I am a puppet and He, my beloved Krishna is holding my strings then why do I need to worry about my moves ? Why do I need free will ? I will better dance on His flute, and merge in His devine Love. Pyaari Jeje, forgive my ignorance, but that is how my Krishna wants me to be. Hope you will understand... Asuan jal seench seench prem bel boi Ab to bel fel gayi anand fal hoi... ( I planted the seed of Love and my tears watered this plant, now the plant has grown up and bearing fruits of bliss) With Love and Love and Love, my sweet jeje, a sadhika Sadhna Karigar ----------------------------- hari bol birth of Evil took place at the time god decided this mortal world to function this is as per Shrimad Bhagwat hari bol b.p.taneja ------------------------------ If Kaam (Desires) leads to evil then why is kaam one of the four pillars of life, artha, dharma, kaam, moksha? Insatiable kaam (desires) is another thing but Kaam or desire by itself surely cannot be the cause of evil? anil bhanot ------------------------------- Beloved seekers. I have been following this thread with great interest. From the first time i read it, i thought -- and continue to think -- that Lord Krishna said it well, when he responded to Arjuna's question about why men do things that seem horrible. The Lord said " Raj, Passion. Anger " . The Song Celestial tells me that there is no evil; only bad actions through the hands of angry men. Gary Poyssick Aum.... shanti shanti shanti ----------------------------- Dear sadaks, Your shadow and you. Your reflection in the mirror or water. Who are you? You can easily identify saying shadow and reflection is by object (Me). So the SAT is you and your shadows (Karmas) are your reflections. Bhagavan in Geetha said that from desire only anger comes, then jealousy etc. Since desire is seed of all actions, it is dangerous as one cannot know when the seed will manifest. Examples: Akrorra was ardent bhaktha of Sri Krishna. But later part of life he stole Samanthakamani (That gives gold) from Bhagavan. Desire for Gold NOT Bagavan. Mata Devaki very much gifted to be mother of Sri Krishna. After seeing Krishna and being with HIM will anyone of us have another desire other than Sri Krishna alone (like Radhe had). But Mata Devaki asked Krishna that it would have been nice if HIS elder brother were alive. Bhagavan brought back to life all his elder brothers and presented to his mother. The DESIRE not ended there she gave birth to another child younger brother of Sri Krishna known as Sathyaki. A Bhaktha known as Poothanam in 1645 lost his only son on the first birth anniversary. He sang song Nygappana (Malayalam) that why he needs children when his son Sri Krishna is there. Meant let my child go. No Desire. Alas Sri Krishna really came and sat on his lap. Poothanam was taken abode with body to Vaikunt by flying Viman at Mallapuram in Kerala in presence of many people like that of Sant Tukaram in the same period 16th century. Sadhaks We must desire for such type of Bakthi even in our perils The desire (Kaama) if not given by Bhagavan, we will be like animals. Animals have desires those are differently called instinct. Now the desire tool could be set (As one sets in computer) can be slowly turned towards Sat Sangh, Bhajan, Namasankeethan Etc. The brain has ratio and capacity. In the beginning the worldly desires will be more in ratio. But slowly by Sat Sangh/Sadhana the worldly desires keeps reducing and the taste of Bhakthi dominates. Once the taste of Bhakthi tasted the mind will ask more and more. Mind Tastes ignorance, it will ask more and more of ignorance, because it` s nature is so. But by Buddhi (Intellect- Vivechanam) one can feed the mind's direction. Manas never listens to you. Similarly turn all the 6 bad Gunas into correct direction making them good. Krodh (Anger) which we are tasting whole day, can slowly be turned towards oneself within thinking, " How bad I am. My stupid mind runs here and there, ultimately putting me in sorrow. My time management is worst, in seeing TV serials, talking about others. ETC " . This type of Krodh makes one purer and purer and turns mind to Bagavan. Jealosy- Become Jealous on looking at Sadhaks/gopies who practice more Bhakthi than you. Eventually the 6 Bad Gunas disappear melts away and mind becomes clear that you and the other person are the same. Sarvam Vasudevamayam. We can use knife to cut fruit or to cut ourselves. Choise is our. This is where we are indipendant. But when learnt to use this knife called Budhi to cut 6 Bad Gunas, we loose our indipendance and become dependant saying " It is all HIS leelas " . Jai Sri Krishna baiya sathyanarayan ------------------------------ PRIOR POSTING Hari Om 'How' , 'when' and 'why' the evil was born - this is the question. Answers is that when 'independence' was granted to individual souls of the conduct in this 'lila of God'- all three happenned together. Those who forget the 'rules of play' fall into the well of 'desire' - the term used for them is 'evil'. Those who listen to their conscience, conduct accordingly, the term used for them is 'good'. Powers accessible to humans include even control over certain functions of 'nature'. They can acquire super natural powers (siddhis) through meditation etc. When they acquire those powers (and exemptions from operation of certain laws) , and when they 'misutilse' those powers for 'self gratification' , then 'gods' incarnate and destroy their evilness in a fitting manner. To an outsider therefore these events seem to be 'violent' but in fact it is 're-establishing the laws pertaining to right conduct (dharma) ' . All sorts of 'evils' are present in one evil called 'desire' ! That is all which in my view is the essence. Scriptures from the outset of creation have laid down the principles and laws governing the creation. Those of us who follow those principles are called 'good'. Those who under sway of 'desires' flout the laws are called 'evil' . Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ----------------------------- I think you might ask if evil would exist if there were no humans around to label events as evil? Ravi Bakhsi ------------------------------ Jai Hanuman Either there is no " good " and no " evil " or absence of good is evil/ absence of evil is good. You see this world is a " divine play " . You are given " independence " to play. You can't be " dependent " and still " play " . All those advocating that a 'person doesn't have free will' are either too bondaged and therefore too ignorant of their " selves " or " too enlightened " therefore too ignorant of other " selves " (Self being the same in both the cases).. They are 'ignorant' definitely. (Afterall ignorance lies in ego- Right you are there, Brother) Misutilisation of that " independence " is called " evil " . Right utilisation of that is called " good " . Hence basically, it is a matter of utilisation. " Independence " is common in both !! This answers Mike's question - Since when? Answer is " Since the day one " !! Namaste Jee Jee Jee Shashikala The profound love and compassion is the root cause for the stupendous evil. The loving and compassionate mother (Mata Shakti) suckling her baby nurturing life becomes the murderous terror (Bhadra Kali) sucking the lives of any potential threat to the very love and compassion. That is nature. We need love and compassion to be comforted. So we seek it naturally. The problem is we get too complacent with such comfort and develop unquestioned dependancy on the same to an extent that any threat to this comfort becomes a threat for individual existence. The same loving and compassionate soul turns into apathy and destruction in rage if its foundation of love and compassion is at stake. Violence is born in peace and peace takes birth from the ashes of violence like a pheonyx bird in all living soceities. That is the quality of all the perceived emotions – recycling amongst their apposites. The very crave toward an imaginary " good " quality is the seed for one's flight away from its reflection – the " bad " quality. The very resent toward a preconceived " bad " quality is the seed for one's search for its conjugate – the " good " quality. I would say, the good and the bad are born in each other at the very instant either of them are conceived in one's cognition. All qualities of life (values and taboos alike) are concocted in one's perception with following fundamental qualities: 1. Every quality adapted in one's cognition instantly creates its predator in the image of its opposite quality in the very same cognitive medium becoming the " aja " (a prey) for its marauder. 2. No quality in one's perception can last for more than the instant it is born – every perception is, in other words, just an " aja " (one who is as good as having not taken birth, vanishing at the very instant it appears). 3. Every perception is forced to be an " aja " , a procreative creature cloning itself perpetually to retain its existence in continuity). 4. Every perception is meant to remain an " aja " (a persihable being at the mercy of its own illusive conductance of beieiving the perceived image or thought to be integral while it is actually a fractured heap of disconnected images lost into the oblivion of the past). One who realizes the nature of the very perception would not give any importance to them in any manner and hence can grow out of the miseries of all kinds as such: Indriyaanaam prithagbhaavamudayaastamayou cha yat | Prithagutpadyamaanaanaam mattvaa dheero na shochati || However, this cannot be attained successfully as far as we depend on the " aja " – the perishable, the recyclable, the manipulatable, the never-alive and ever-dead thoughts and perceptions – in terms of their own derivatives such as listening, watching, speaking, thinking, etc. as we perceive: Naayamaatmaa pravachanena labhyah | Na medhayaa bahuna shrutena || Any insistence for such urge to transcend the " aja " inherent in one's life would verily limit the individual to an " aja " , a sheep, an embodiment of ignorance as such. One who realizes the " aja " in every perception would verily transcend the same giving no particular attention to any such events and retaining no specificity of whatsoever quality for the same. Then the continuity that is actually inherent in all the events dwelling in The Aja, The Birthless Absolute, as IT is revealed to absorb the individual within ITSELF as such: Yamevaisha vrinute tena labhyah | Tasyaisha aatmaa vivrunute tanum svaam || Once The Birthless Absolute is attained in the absence of the sgnificance for the perishables, it reveals itself amongst the very objects and thoughts once perceived as perishables removing the imposter, the quality projected in our perception on each object, event and relation. Then where is the room for evil or for good? In my opinion, the good and its nemesis are never-existent in reality. If they seem to exist, they co-exist in one's perception – in that case, they both exist simultaneously in one's perception though the perceiver pretends to ignore or fails to acknowledge the presence of both together for circumstantial adaption. Respects. Naga Narayana ------------------------------- PRIOR POSTING Dear Sadhak, The nature of the world is dual. All opposites exists here. The source of evil and source of goodness is the same-Nature Arjuna asked similar question to Lord in Gitaji Ch 3:36 Arjuna said: O descendant of Vrsni, by what is one impelled to sinful acts, even unwillingly, as if engaged by force? And Krishna said : It is desire only, Arjuna, which is born out of the Rajoguna( mode of passion) and later transformed into wrath, and which is the all-devouring, sinful enemy of this world. Ch 3:37 He also said The mode of passion is born of unlimited desires and longings, O son of Kunti, and because of this one is bound to material fruitive activities. Ch14:7 This means due to dominance of Rajoguna, the desire or Kaam is born. And as Swamiji explained in simplest term Kaam is attachment towards outcome, liking and disliking.This " desire " is the root cause of all evils. With lots of love, A sadhika Sadhana Karigar ------------------------------ -Shree Hari- In the Abrahamic tradition, the eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, compares remarkably, well with B.Sathyanarayanji's statement inserted: 'Aggynanam (Evil) was born along with Gyana (Knowledge). ' Of course there is duality at this point, and then the Ego struts its stuff. I was interested to read respected Sadhaks commentaries, I feel that there is a Universal understanding of the root cause of Evil, 'That moment'. Yes I agree that Evil resides within us all, dogging us from birth to birth, a very good reason not to judge others, after all what Evil has been carried out by one in previous lifetimes. To desire the the truth with ones total being, is a two edge sword, Bhagwan in all his loving mercy will give all you search for, as much as one can bare . B.G.:- 73.Routed out is my illusion as I have gained my memory (knowledge) through your grace, Krishna! I am firm; my doubts are gone. I will act according to your word. With Respect and Divine Love, Mike Keenor ------------------------------- Loving Divine, Pranam. Mikeji, yes shatan is ego. To your question, a different perspective (not so different utlimately, please contemplate and let us know whether you get your answer or not, may be you already found your answer...) - How: by me giving birth to goodness... When: when I decided to operate under unnatural laws, i.e., my ignorance... or when I forgot advait. Why: I desired so when I was under the spell of ignorance... Hope this helps, if needed little detail explanation please let me know. Thanks. humble regards, alwasy at Thy Holy Feet ----------------------------- Dear Sadaks, The question of Sri Mikeji is--My question is; how, when and why , was Evil born. Because of desire evil gets birth. Evil gets into you at the moment the thought arises for DESIRE. Last is the question " Why " --- the answer is to satisfy you. If there was No evil you dont get your desires satisfied. Example: Adam And Eve. To eat an apple thought arose (When). Then action to eat apple took place (How) To satisfy eating apple (Why). Here the snake represents evil as the desires not in straigjht line i.e. mind goes yes or no. Apple represents object to which desires go. Adam and Eve represent whom evil swallows. Bhagavan in Geetha says Kaameyesu (Desires) -- Krothayesu (Anger) Etc. From desire arises Anger Etc B.Sathyanarayan ------------------------------ PRIOR POSTING Hari Om My understanding of Swamiji's message is that the evil gets established in the Ego and does not leave you - till you leave that, in other words till you refuse to accept that the evil is in you. Why one should not discuss about the same? Is it not a problem of humanity at large? It stays and has capacity to stay in your " svabhav " (nature) till you amend your svabhav. With your " subtle body " it goes with you even after your death. One should not whisk away so easily ! If it does not stay then why God has to incarnate in every yuga to re-establish Dharma (righteousness)? Where is the need for Gita? Where is the need for Saints like Swami Ramsukhdasji Maharaj? Why one should amend his " svabhav " (nature) ? We must address evil. We can't afford to ignore it so easily. In the end to get rid of it - Don't accept it in you ! That is true. But not like this !! Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ------------------------- PRIOR POSTING :Shree Hari: Ram Ram. No use searching for 'how evil was born?', 'when evil was born?' and 'why was evil born?' as Swamiji said,'what is born, will die' and so nothing to find 'how, when, why' of what will not stay. Ram Ram. Sarvottam ------------------------------ Dear Sadhakas, Namaste! Mikeji's question is born of contemplation and I am sure he has his answer too! I see Evil is doing onto " others " that one doesn't want done on him/her. Any relationship, potentially evil or otherwise, is possible only when there is " one " and therefore, necessarily, " other " . As Sufi saint rightly put it Satan was/is the Ego, ego being the notion of " one " , relative only to " other " . This is believing " one " as separate from " other " as individuals. This is why evil actions are possible just as acts of profound love and compassion are possible towards seemingly " others " . If there is only ONE, non-dual(one without a second), no relationship can exist, ONE feeling Complete in SELF. Separate bodies based on space between them offers no proof of our feeling separations. Minds are conditioned differently also offers no proof either, because in reality they all are ONE Consciousness appearing as many in ignorance, just as Ocean appearing as waves. Thus Ego, being the notion making us believe divided is the root cause of evil. And it is entirely due to ignorance of our True nature of ONENESS, non-dual Consciousness! If we truly, truly let go of this notion and feel, think and act from this underlying Oneness on the plain of surface diversity(world) we cannot do any evil acts! This is how I would answer " how and why " of evil actions. " When did this evil start? " cannot be answered in time frame as Ignorance of one's true nature is beginningless (Upanishadas). This is because upon Realization one knows " there was/is never any ignorance " . If there is knowing of " ignorance " , then, there is one who knows! Practically one can say that the original sin(eating apple) is this individuality! Namaskaras......... Pratap Bhatt ------------------------------ Good and bad reside within everybody. It is upto us to choose. In this Kaliyug one finds more bad people because they are chasing illusions which they feel will make them happy and one up on others. For those who want moksha or liberation from endless deaths and births will only do good karmas so that they will attain moksha earlier. Hari Shanker Deo ------------------------------ Dear Sadaks, Aggynanam (Evil) was born along with Gyana (Knowledge). It is said in Uoanashids and Vedas that Evil`s birth not over Anatha Koti Kalpa Kaalam. Means the bigining not known. It is also said that the creation and (Maha Pralayam) destruction was going on for several times. Bagavan Vishnu told Markandeyan Maha Rishi the following: When Maha Pralayam takes place the water cover the whole earth, the water and earth is swallowed by Pralayagni (The fire one sees in galaxies speard over millions of miles), Pralayagni is swallowed by Pralaya Vaayu (wind one can never dream off), The pralaya Vaayu takes abode in Space, and the whole space in Maha Vishnu. Again the creation starts. This what going on. So the evil comes in along with creation. Evil plays role of taking the creation by 4 yugas to an end. Evil is there in untold actions. In the begining When fire was discovered earth stared polluting, from fire cooking which gave us unnatural food, cooked food gives us aging (Normally Man said to be 12 Ft tall and life span was 300 years as per scientific finding of human body design, one can see today in Musium the sword of kings 6 ft long weighing 20/25 Kg), So man was heafty to carry that weight. Sri Treta Yug (Sri Rama) period it is said that woman gave birth only on completion of 12 months. Now it has come to 9 months. From these actions and food Evil multiplied more and more to greater level. When evil becomes the most the Dharma is destroying. To save that Dharma Bagavan appears as KALKI Avatar. B.Sathyanarayan ------------------------------ GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: 1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify their doubts related to Gitaji shalokas. Therefore, responses which further clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be posted. 2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to substantiate your response. 3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas 4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting sadhaka's time. 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only. 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other organizations. 7. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone number, address etc. 8. Please do not address the response to a particular individual since the message is going to the entire group. 9. Due to the large readership, all responses may not be posted. 10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if content is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the group. 11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use to Sanskrit words only, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit bracketed wherever possible. MODERATOR Ram Ram ------------------------ Post message: Subscribe: - Un: - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 21, 2008 Report Share Posted November 21, 2008 Shree Hari- Something I have pondered upon for a very long time: Mankind is capable of acts of profound love and compassion, and also acts of stupendous evil. The demonic has been equated by people I certainly admire, in a nutshell as being without balance. A Sufi Saint I read about, made the observation that the Shatan was the ego. Sri Krishna, as noted in Gitaji, described what is demonic. My question is; how, when and why , was Evil born. With Respect and Divine Love, Mike Keenor ------------------------------ NEW POSTING Hare Krishna Mike Sir, I read your addendum. Now my doubt is cleared. Just adding few points to answer your question How From view point of Bhaktiyoga, believing in world and turning back on God is the root of all evils. From view point of Gyanyoga, assuming body's existence as one's existence is the root of all evils. From view point of Karmayoga, assuming body-world as mine is the root of all evils. When Human has the freedom to believe, accept and bend towards God. He has has the freedom to not accept body's existence as his own existence. He has the freedom to not assume body-world as mine. So, Evil was born when human misused the independence given to him by God. Why 1. Human got deflected towards world because he believed it as IS i.e. accepted the changing and non-existent world as IS. After giving it existence he gave importance to it that it is good. Its a law that you only desire that thing which you consider as important and essential. Why would you desire anything if you don't find it important?. And we all know what happens after desire (Gita 2/62,63;3/37,38 and 39) 2. He accepted the body's existence as his own existence because he never ever used his discrimination. Due to this he is in such a pitiable state that he even refuses his existence after death. 3. He assumed his relationship with body-world, because he neither used his discrimination nor established any relationship with God. Because of the above 3 reasons he has flown into this world and developed one very dangerous habit of enjoying worldly pleasures. This habit is the root cause of all evils. Everyone in this world who is in jail, who is in 8.4 million wombs, who is in hell it is just because of this habit. Until and unless he wipes out this habit he can never escape from suffering (Gita 5.22). Thank You, Hare Krishna Varun P. Paprunia ------------------------------- Without Evil one would never know the pleasure of Good Just like without Salt one wouln't be able to enjoy Sweet If it is all the same all the time, then there is no struggle & without struggle there is no life as such. It would be " CALM " or death. I guess to balance the universe there is light against darkness, Devataas against Asurs, & Good against Evil. The main objective should be " balance " NOT one over the other What do you say ? Naresh Khanna ------------------------------ PRIOR POSTING Dear sadaks, Like the great saints, they started with love of GOD, sang songs in HIS praise, they dwelled in meditation, many of them even spoke and seen GOD, but if we carefully see their later part of their life, their statement says that they are one with GOD. So one starts with something and gets one with God. We are puppets of our own Karmas. There is no strings pulled by GOD or anyone. The strings are made by us and we pull our own srtings. After we realize this, then NO strings of desire/Karmas and No puppet, but one with God. Jai Sri Krishna baiya sathyanarayan ------------------------------ -Shree Hari- An addendum to my last comment, that dawned on me. Applying boolean logic to the concept of desire in this manner: To return to the state of oneness with God, desire for God. Now desire for 'Not' God, means just that, desire for the illusions that holds one in bondage.(The primordial falling away) Just a thought. With Respect and Divine Love. mike.keenor ------------------------------ In my eyes, if Bede Griffiths discovered the divine love he would have not been so anti hindu. Divine love shoul lead to emancipation from all prejudice. By the way Sufis are a remanant of hindu vedanta in the middle-east and nothing whatsoever to do with Islam. Ravi Bakhsi ------------------------------ Hare Krishna Mikeji you said Dwelling on this, from my humble view point these desires reflect the great illusion of duality. Maybe most graphically illustrated in ones desire for the 'Beloved Lord', in other words one sees oneself separated from Bhagwan, which is the great illusion. From this what I understand is that desire of Bhagwan is a mistake (illusion) in itself. If this is so then what else should a sadhak do? As far as I know a sadhak's job is only to desire Bhagwan and renounce world. And also Bhagwan's desire is not a desire but a necessity (avashyakta). So why is it a mistake to feel His avashyakta? Please clarify Thanks, Varun P. Paprunia ------------------------------ PRIOR POSTING -Shree Hari- As this was my question it would be wrong for me not to thank all Sadhaks for the wise council. It seems that desire is considered to be the root cause of evil. Dwelling on this, from my humble view point these desires reflect the great illusion of duality. Maybe most graphically illustrated in ones desire for the 'Beloved Lord' , in other words one sees oneself separated from Bhagwan, which is the great illusion. In the accounts of two people I have studied. Both these souls, after a long period of reaching for 'The Divine', achieved a state, although expressed in a different manner, expressed the same realisation. Bede Griffiths' experienced the Divine Universal Love, and said that he now understood the complimentary of opposites. Irena Tweedie said many beautiful things , and at the end of her long awakening she wrote; " Love for the unlimited is also unlimited; thats why our hearts have to be broken and become nothing to accommodate the Unlimited " . And poignantly she ended her account, " All this I know. My life is offered to You (Bhagwan). You take over. And may God help me... Both these Souls were returning home to the Source. Falling into the arms of Father. I cannot see where there is any place for desire. To move to a place beyond the mind. I noted also in the latest Sadhaka post: B.G. 5:3 O' Mighty-armed One ! That man who neither hates, nor desires anything, he is eligible to be called a " karmayogi " and an eternal sannyâsi (renunciate); because being free from dualities (pairs of opposites), he is happily liberated from worldly bondages. The one that gave me guidance and support when I most needed it, suggested I read Irena Tweedie. The one who was a fellow traveler, said, " Mike you should read The Bhagavad Gita " As for The Bede I simply found him. As I found you dear Sadhaks. With Respect and Divine Love, Mike Keenor ------------------------------ Dear Sadhak, You are absolutely right Pratap Bhai, thanks for beautifully expanding, explaining the answer. Yes, this is the ultimate truth-I am the puppet, the string, the puppet master, the show, and the watcher. Nothing else exist except " I " . Thanks again. with lots of love, a sadhika Sadhna Karigar ------------------------------- PRIOR POSTING Hari Om Question of Anil Bhanot emanates due to the term 'kaam' used in Scriptures for two different meanings. One is 'kaamna' (desire) . Another is for representing eight objects thereof viz smell (nose), sound (ears), touch(skin), taste(tongue), form(eyes), respect, praise and comfort. Reference by Anil for Kaam being one of the four is not for desire but for the above objects of desires. All these are pertaining to mind, body and ego ! Not to " self " . They and 'artha' are always under domain of " prarabdha " (fate/destiny- results of past deeds). Balance two viz Dharma and Moksha are for 'self' and hence " Purushartha " ( Present karma/efforts) plays dominant role there. Desire is the root cause of all evils. Whether it is subtle or intense as far as it is for objects of sense gratification, it is to be renounced. Objects of desire in themselves are harmless. They are outer elements. But " desire " is inside living in " Satan " ego ! Your desiring for the aforesaid eight objects and 'artha' does not cause receipt of them. It can only cause 'sorrow' for you. Mr Anil is adviced to read sadhak deliberations reg: desires in the Q - Greatest Astonishment , which Q shall be finally concluded tomorrow- to understand futility of desires in all circumstances. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ----------------------------- Dear Sadhakas, Namaste! Few words as I have understood, about Desire(Kaam) being one of the pillars of life, how can it be the root of evil? If one goes a little deeper into " desire " , generally most desires have the root in ignorant belief that " I am such and such person with " my " body, " my " mind, and " my " relationships, and therefore, " my " desires etc etc. " . Desires arising from such an individuality, such separation, cannot be satisfied come what may, and hence may prompt evil actions to fulfill non-existing " me " taken as true. Noble desires from such a person has the place in life, and hence is one of the pillars. But such noble and apparantly " personal desires " arise from Impersonal Being only which is what we really are! Thus, Noble desires(kaamas) are guided by Dharma through Karmas, with the goal of Moksha! To sum up: Personal desires stem from ignorance and hence are limited, selfish in nature, can be root of evil actions. " Person " is a mask(persona) behind which, only desires act! Impersonal desires are fulfilled,because they are in harmony with God's will, the very reason that results of one's action is not in his/her hand(gita) as an individual! Namaskar..........Pratap Bhatt ----------------------------- Dear Sadhakas, Namaste! On Sadhanaji's last response to Shashikalaji, I want to build it like this! It is a good stand point to say I am just a puppet dancing on His fingertips. But when combined with the paragraph above it where she says deep down there is only ONE, and I am THAT, it is true that I am not only pupper but Puppet Master also. " I " of course doesn't refer to anything perceived/conceived including body-mind-intellect which are also perceived and therefore limited objects. Cann't I say, I have created this Grand-Divine play for " MYSELF " in which I am the spectators, puppets, strings, and Master Fingertips? First perspective is of Humility to say I am puppet, the body-mind instruments, and the second one is that of Liberation, Freedom to play any Roles. This is consistent with Gita/Vedanta/Swamiji! Only ONE appearing to play many Roles! Please see this is not intellectual only! It is experientially available right now! Another point is that I have to know this is the stage on which I am playing the role, then only I can play role, otherwise I take it seriously and get attached to role! Namaskaras........Pratap Bhatt ------------------------------ PRIOR POSTING Dear Sadhika Shashikalaji,Pyaari Jeje,I do not need to say anything as you know all this for sure, but just want to write. A seeker of Knowledge know deep inside that there is only One existence. That One is no other than I. So he says-I am That!!! A devotee sees his beloved Krishna in all and says -TU hi Tu, but deep inside he knows that His Krishna and He is One. One multiplied and look Many, but those many can only be seen because that One exist. That One can exist without many but the many cannot exist without the One. So the appearance of many is just a illusion, a play, a leela. In this play I know I am just a puppet dancing on His fingertips.To create more thrill in this play He has loosen His string so we start thinking that we are independent but how far we can go with this so called free will ? Once I realize that I am a puppet and He, my beloved Krishna is holding my strings then why do I need to worry about my moves ? Why do I need free will ? I will better dance on His flute, and merge in His devine Love. Pyaari Jeje, forgive my ignorance, but that is how my Krishna wants me to be. Hope you will understand... Asuan jal seench seench prem bel boi Ab to bel fel gayi anand fal hoi... ( I planted the seed of Love and my tears watered this plant, now the plant has grown up and bearing fruits of bliss) With Love and Love and Love, my sweet jeje, a sadhika Sadhna Karigar ----------------------------- hari bol birth of Evil took place at the time god decided this mortal world to function this is as per Shrimad Bhagwat hari bol b.p.taneja ------------------------------ If Kaam (Desires) leads to evil then why is kaam one of the four pillars of life, artha, dharma, kaam, moksha? Insatiable kaam (desires) is another thing but Kaam or desire by itself surely cannot be the cause of evil? anil bhanot ------------------------------- Beloved seekers. I have been following this thread with great interest. From the first time i read it, i thought -- and continue to think -- that Lord Krishna said it well, when he responded to Arjuna's question about why men do things that seem horrible. The Lord said " Raj, Passion. Anger " . The Song Celestial tells me that there is no evil; only bad actions through the hands of angry men. Gary Poyssick Aum.... shanti shanti shanti ----------------------------- Dear sadaks, Your shadow and you. Your reflection in the mirror or water. Who are you? You can easily identify saying shadow and reflection is by object (Me). So the SAT is you and your shadows (Karmas) are your reflections. Bhagavan in Geetha said that from desire only anger comes, then jealousy etc. Since desire is seed of all actions, it is dangerous as one cannot know when the seed will manifest. Examples: Akrorra was ardent bhaktha of Sri Krishna. But later part of life he stole Samanthakamani (That gives gold) from Bhagavan. Desire for Gold NOT Bagavan. Mata Devaki very much gifted to be mother of Sri Krishna. After seeing Krishna and being with HIM will anyone of us have another desire other than Sri Krishna alone (like Radhe had). But Mata Devaki asked Krishna that it would have been nice if HIS elder brother were alive. Bhagavan brought back to life all his elder brothers and presented to his mother. The DESIRE not ended there she gave birth to another child younger brother of Sri Krishna known as Sathyaki. A Bhaktha known as Poothanam in 1645 lost his only son on the first birth anniversary. He sang song Nygappana (Malayalam) that why he needs children when his son Sri Krishna is there. Meant let my child go. No Desire. Alas Sri Krishna really came and sat on his lap. Poothanam was taken abode with body to Vaikunt by flying Viman at Mallapuram in Kerala in presence of many people like that of Sant Tukaram in the same period 16th century. Sadhaks We must desire for such type of Bakthi even in our perils The desire (Kaama) if not given by Bhagavan, we will be like animals. Animals have desires those are differently called instinct. Now the desire tool could be set (As one sets in computer) can be slowly turned towards Sat Sangh, Bhajan, Namasankeethan Etc. The brain has ratio and capacity. In the beginning the worldly desires will be more in ratio. But slowly by Sat Sangh/Sadhana the worldly desires keeps reducing and the taste of Bhakthi dominates. Once the taste of Bhakthi tasted the mind will ask more and more. Mind Tastes ignorance, it will ask more and more of ignorance, because it` s nature is so. But by Buddhi (Intellect- Vivechanam) one can feed the mind's direction. Manas never listens to you. Similarly turn all the 6 bad Gunas into correct direction making them good. Krodh (Anger) which we are tasting whole day, can slowly be turned towards oneself within thinking, " How bad I am. My stupid mind runs here and there, ultimately putting me in sorrow. My time management is worst, in seeing TV serials, talking about others. ETC " . This type of Krodh makes one purer and purer and turns mind to Bagavan. Jealosy- Become Jealous on looking at Sadhaks/gopies who practice more Bhakthi than you. Eventually the 6 Bad Gunas disappear melts away and mind becomes clear that you and the other person are the same. Sarvam Vasudevamayam. We can use knife to cut fruit or to cut ourselves. Choise is our. This is where we are indipendant. But when learnt to use this knife called Budhi to cut 6 Bad Gunas, we loose our indipendance and become dependant saying " It is all HIS leelas " . Jai Sri Krishna baiya sathyanarayan ------------------------------ PRIOR POSTING Hari Om 'How' , 'when' and 'why' the evil was born - this is the question. Answers is that when 'independence' was granted to individual souls of the conduct in this 'lila of God'- all three happenned together. Those who forget the 'rules of play' fall into the well of 'desire' - the term used for them is 'evil'. Those who listen to their conscience, conduct accordingly, the term used for them is 'good'. Powers accessible to humans include even control over certain functions of 'nature'. They can acquire super natural powers (siddhis) through meditation etc. When they acquire those powers (and exemptions from operation of certain laws) , and when they 'misutilse' those powers for 'self gratification' , then 'gods' incarnate and destroy their evilness in a fitting manner. To an outsider therefore these events seem to be 'violent' but in fact it is 're-establishing the laws pertaining to right conduct (dharma) ' . All sorts of 'evils' are present in one evil called 'desire' ! That is all which in my view is the essence. Scriptures from the outset of creation have laid down the principles and laws governing the creation. Those of us who follow those principles are called 'good'. Those who under sway of 'desires' flout the laws are called 'evil' . Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ----------------------------- I think you might ask if evil would exist if there were no humans around to label events as evil? Ravi Bakhsi ------------------------------ Jai Hanuman Either there is no " good " and no " evil " or absence of good is evil/ absence of evil is good. You see this world is a " divine play " . You are given " independence " to play. You can't be " dependent " and still " play " . All those advocating that a 'person doesn't have free will' are either too bondaged and therefore too ignorant of their " selves " or " too enlightened " therefore too ignorant of other " selves " (Self being the same in both the cases).. They are 'ignorant' definitely. (Afterall ignorance lies in ego- Right you are there, Brother) Misutilisation of that " independence " is called " evil " . Right utilisation of that is called " good " . Hence basically, it is a matter of utilisation. " Independence " is common in both !! This answers Mike's question - Since when? Answer is " Since the day one " !! Namaste Jee Jee Jee Shashikala The profound love and compassion is the root cause for the stupendous evil. The loving and compassionate mother (Mata Shakti) suckling her baby nurturing life becomes the murderous terror (Bhadra Kali) sucking the lives of any potential threat to the very love and compassion. That is nature. We need love and compassion to be comforted. So we seek it naturally. The problem is we get too complacent with such comfort and develop unquestioned dependancy on the same to an extent that any threat to this comfort becomes a threat for individual existence. The same loving and compassionate soul turns into apathy and destruction in rage if its foundation of love and compassion is at stake. Violence is born in peace and peace takes birth from the ashes of violence like a pheonyx bird in all living soceities. That is the quality of all the perceived emotions – recycling amongst their apposites. The very crave toward an imaginary " good " quality is the seed for one's flight away from its reflection – the " bad " quality. The very resent toward a preconceived " bad " quality is the seed for one's search for its conjugate – the " good " quality. I would say, the good and the bad are born in each other at the very instant either of them are conceived in one's cognition. All qualities of life (values and taboos alike) are concocted in one's perception with following fundamental qualities: 1. Every quality adapted in one's cognition instantly creates its predator in the image of its opposite quality in the very same cognitive medium becoming the " aja " (a prey) for its marauder. 2. No quality in one's perception can last for more than the instant it is born – every perception is, in other words, just an " aja " (one who is as good as having not taken birth, vanishing at the very instant it appears). 3. Every perception is forced to be an " aja " , a procreative creature cloning itself perpetually to retain its existence in continuity). 4. Every perception is meant to remain an " aja " (a persihable being at the mercy of its own illusive conductance of beieiving the perceived image or thought to be integral while it is actually a fractured heap of disconnected images lost into the oblivion of the past). One who realizes the nature of the very perception would not give any importance to them in any manner and hence can grow out of the miseries of all kinds as such: Indriyaanaam prithagbhaavamudayaastamayou cha yat | Prithagutpadyamaanaanaam mattvaa dheero na shochati || However, this cannot be attained successfully as far as we depend on the " aja " – the perishable, the recyclable, the manipulatable, the never-alive and ever-dead thoughts and perceptions – in terms of their own derivatives such as listening, watching, speaking, thinking, etc. as we perceive: Naayamaatmaa pravachanena labhyah | Na medhayaa bahuna shrutena || Any insistence for such urge to transcend the " aja " inherent in one's life would verily limit the individual to an " aja " , a sheep, an embodiment of ignorance as such. One who realizes the " aja " in every perception would verily transcend the same giving no particular attention to any such events and retaining no specificity of whatsoever quality for the same. Then the continuity that is actually inherent in all the events dwelling in The Aja, The Birthless Absolute, as IT is revealed to absorb the individual within ITSELF as such: Yamevaisha vrinute tena labhyah | Tasyaisha aatmaa vivrunute tanum svaam || Once The Birthless Absolute is attained in the absence of the sgnificance for the perishables, it reveals itself amongst the very objects and thoughts once perceived as perishables removing the imposter, the quality projected in our perception on each object, event and relation. Then where is the room for evil or for good? In my opinion, the good and its nemesis are never-existent in reality. If they seem to exist, they co-exist in one's perception – in that case, they both exist simultaneously in one's perception though the perceiver pretends to ignore or fails to acknowledge the presence of both together for circumstantial adaption. Respects. Naga Narayana ------------------------------- PRIOR POSTING Dear Sadhak, The nature of the world is dual. All opposites exists here. The source of evil and source of goodness is the same-Nature Arjuna asked similar question to Lord in Gitaji Ch 3:36 Arjuna said: O descendant of Vrsni, by what is one impelled to sinful acts, even unwillingly, as if engaged by force? And Krishna said : It is desire only, Arjuna, which is born out of the Rajoguna( mode of passion) and later transformed into wrath, and which is the all-devouring, sinful enemy of this world. Ch 3:37 He also said The mode of passion is born of unlimited desires and longings, O son of Kunti, and because of this one is bound to material fruitive activities. Ch14:7 This means due to dominance of Rajoguna, the desire or Kaam is born. And as Swamiji explained in simplest term Kaam is attachment towards outcome, liking and disliking.This " desire " is the root cause of all evils. With lots of love, A sadhika Sadhana Karigar ------------------------------ -Shree Hari- In the Abrahamic tradition, the eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, compares remarkably, well with B.Sathyanarayanji's statement inserted: 'Aggynanam (Evil) was born along with Gyana (Knowledge). ' Of course there is duality at this point, and then the Ego struts its stuff. I was interested to read respected Sadhaks commentaries, I feel that there is a Universal understanding of the root cause of Evil, 'That moment'. Yes I agree that Evil resides within us all, dogging us from birth to birth, a very good reason not to judge others, after all what Evil has been carried out by one in previous lifetimes. To desire the the truth with ones total being, is a two edge sword, Bhagwan in all his loving mercy will give all you search for, as much as one can bare . B.G.:- 73.Routed out is my illusion as I have gained my memory (knowledge) through your grace, Krishna! I am firm; my doubts are gone. I will act according to your word. With Respect and Divine Love, Mike Keenor ------------------------------- Loving Divine, Pranam. Mikeji, yes shatan is ego. To your question, a different perspective (not so different utlimately, please contemplate and let us know whether you get your answer or not, may be you already found your answer...) - How: by me giving birth to goodness... When: when I decided to operate under unnatural laws, i.e., my ignorance... or when I forgot advait. Why: I desired so when I was under the spell of ignorance... Hope this helps, if needed little detail explanation please let me know. Thanks. humble regards, alwasy at Thy Holy Feet ----------------------------- Dear Sadaks, The question of Sri Mikeji is--My question is; how, when and why , was Evil born. Because of desire evil gets birth. Evil gets into you at the moment the thought arises for DESIRE. Last is the question " Why " --- the answer is to satisfy you. If there was No evil you dont get your desires satisfied. Example: Adam And Eve. To eat an apple thought arose (When). Then action to eat apple took place (How) To satisfy eating apple (Why). Here the snake represents evil as the desires not in straigjht line i.e. mind goes yes or no. Apple represents object to which desires go. Adam and Eve represent whom evil swallows. Bhagavan in Geetha says Kaameyesu (Desires) -- Krothayesu (Anger) Etc. From desire arises Anger Etc B.Sathyanarayan ------------------------------ PRIOR POSTING Hari Om My understanding of Swamiji's message is that the evil gets established in the Ego and does not leave you - till you leave that, in other words till you refuse to accept that the evil is in you. Why one should not discuss about the same? Is it not a problem of humanity at large? It stays and has capacity to stay in your " svabhav " (nature) till you amend your svabhav. With your " subtle body " it goes with you even after your death. One should not whisk away so easily ! If it does not stay then why God has to incarnate in every yuga to re-establish Dharma (righteousness)? Where is the need for Gita? Where is the need for Saints like Swami Ramsukhdasji Maharaj? Why one should amend his " svabhav " (nature) ? We must address evil. We can't afford to ignore it so easily. In the end to get rid of it - Don't accept it in you ! That is true. But not like this !! Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B ------------------------- PRIOR POSTING :Shree Hari: Ram Ram. No use searching for 'how evil was born?', 'when evil was born?' and 'why was evil born?' as Swamiji said,'what is born, will die' and so nothing to find 'how, when, why' of what will not stay. Ram Ram. Sarvottam ------------------------------ Dear Sadhakas, Namaste! Mikeji's question is born of contemplation and I am sure he has his answer too! I see Evil is doing onto " others " that one doesn't want done on him/her. Any relationship, potentially evil or otherwise, is possible only when there is " one " and therefore, necessarily, " other " . As Sufi saint rightly put it Satan was/is the Ego, ego being the notion of " one " , relative only to " other " . This is believing " one " as separate from " other " as individuals. This is why evil actions are possible just as acts of profound love and compassion are possible towards seemingly " others " . If there is only ONE, non-dual(one without a second), no relationship can exist, ONE feeling Complete in SELF. Separate bodies based on space between them offers no proof of our feeling separations. Minds are conditioned differently also offers no proof either, because in reality they all are ONE Consciousness appearing as many in ignorance, just as Ocean appearing as waves. Thus Ego, being the notion making us believe divided is the root cause of evil. And it is entirely due to ignorance of our True nature of ONENESS, non-dual Consciousness! If we truly, truly let go of this notion and feel, think and act from this underlying Oneness on the plain of surface diversity(world) we cannot do any evil acts! This is how I would answer " how and why " of evil actions. " When did this evil start? " cannot be answered in time frame as Ignorance of one's true nature is beginningless (Upanishadas). This is because upon Realization one knows " there was/is never any ignorance " . If there is knowing of " ignorance " , then, there is one who knows! Practically one can say that the original sin(eating apple) is this individuality! Namaskaras......... Pratap Bhatt ------------------------------ Good and bad reside within everybody. It is upto us to choose. In this Kaliyug one finds more bad people because they are chasing illusions which they feel will make them happy and one up on others. For those who want moksha or liberation from endless deaths and births will only do good karmas so that they will attain moksha earlier. Hari Shanker Deo ------------------------------ Dear Sadaks, Aggynanam (Evil) was born along with Gyana (Knowledge). It is said in Uoanashids and Vedas that Evil`s birth not over Anatha Koti Kalpa Kaalam. Means the bigining not known. It is also said that the creation and (Maha Pralayam) destruction was going on for several times. Bagavan Vishnu told Markandeyan Maha Rishi the following: When Maha Pralayam takes place the water cover the whole earth, the water and earth is swallowed by Pralayagni (The fire one sees in galaxies speard over millions of miles), Pralayagni is swallowed by Pralaya Vaayu (wind one can never dream off), The pralaya Vaayu takes abode in Space, and the whole space in Maha Vishnu. Again the creation starts. This what going on. So the evil comes in along with creation. Evil plays role of taking the creation by 4 yugas to an end. Evil is there in untold actions. In the begining When fire was discovered earth stared polluting, from fire cooking which gave us unnatural food, cooked food gives us aging (Normally Man said to be 12 Ft tall and life span was 300 years as per scientific finding of human body design, one can see today in Musium the sword of kings 6 ft long weighing 20/25 Kg), So man was heafty to carry that weight. Sri Treta Yug (Sri Rama) period it is said that woman gave birth only on completion of 12 months. Now it has come to 9 months. From these actions and food Evil multiplied more and more to greater level. When evil becomes the most the Dharma is destroying. To save that Dharma Bagavan appears as KALKI Avatar. B.Sathyanarayan ------------------------------ GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: 1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify their doubts related to Gitaji shalokas. Therefore, responses which further clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be posted. 2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to substantiate your response. 3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas 4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting sadhaka's time. 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only. 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other organizations. 7. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone number, address etc. 8. Please do not address the response to a particular individual since the message is going to the entire group. 9. Due to the large readership, all responses may not be posted. 10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if content is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the group. 11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use to Sanskrit words only, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit bracketed wherever possible. MODERATOR Ram Ram ------------------------ Post message: Subscribe: - Un: - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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