How is Man independent in performing actions ?

[Guest guest]

Narayana Narayana

 

In English

 

It is said that not a leaf can move without Bhagwaan's will

(wishes), then how is man independent in performing actions?

 

Ramchandra

 

In Hindi

Bhagwan ki marji ke bina pataa bhi nahin hiltaa, phir manushya karam

karne mein kaise swatantra hai?

 

Ramchandra

 

-

 

GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES:

1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify their doubts

related to Gitaji shalokas. Therefore, responses which further

clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be posted.

2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to

substantiate your response.

3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the

extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas

4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting

sadhaka's time.

5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only.

6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other

organizations.

7. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone

number, address etc.

8. Please do not address the response to a particular individual

since the message is going to the entire group.

9. Due to the large readership, all responses may not be posted.

10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if content

is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the group.

11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth,

westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use to Sanskrit

words only, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit bracketed

wherever possible.

 

MODERATOR

Ram Ram

------------------------

 

Post message:

Subscribe: -

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[Guest guest]

Narayana Narayana

 

In English

 

It is said that not a leaf can move without Bhagwaan's will

(wishes), then how is man independent in performing actions?

 

Ramchandra

 

In Hindi

Bhagwan ki marji ke bina pataa bhi nahin hiltaa, phir manushya karam

karne mein kaise swatantra hai?

 

Ramchandra

 

 

 

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

 

Man or woman is not independent in performing actions as long as one

takes oneself to be body identified person. This body identification

provides a stage to function in the world-stage for playing one's

roles to serve. Unfortunately this identification provides plateform

on which " individuality " in terms of desires, fears, likes/dislikes

constitute subtle body-mind-stuff, which takes control of his/her

life. This is what he/she calls " I " or " me " , and thus 'mineness " is

born. ( " Mineness " is born only after " me " is born first).

 

When one such a one acts, it is only this " me " , disguised as

desires/fears really act, and always attempts to protect " imagined

him/her " or what is perceived to be of his/hers.

 

So there is no independent actions out of such a one, always reacting

to situations in self-defense not knowing his true SELF-Atman-true

independence to act.

 

When one acquires the knowledge of one's true Self, through whatever

means prescribed in Gita or other Scriptures, one is aware of " me " in

its true colors just as it arises and stays away from acting to

protect it. There is a total freedom to act out of That which we truly

are, Love, Compassion ourselves in the abscense of " me " !

 

Actions are then seen as coming from Totality of Being and not personal.

 

Such a one can truly say " Let Thy Will be done " as Jesus said. When a

leaf moves, it is God's will through nature, and when we act, it is

God as our Will acts, whatever be the act!

 

Namaskar........

 

Pratap Bhatt

 

What we are today is the result of our past karmas. What we will

become in our next birth will be the result of our present karmas. The

goal of every soul is to become one with God ultimately, that is for

the atma to become one with Parmatma. This is called attaining moksh

or liberation from the endless and painful cycle of birth and death.

Since everything in this world is an illusion, it is upto us to first

connect with our soul through meditation and through good karmas, then

to attain moksh from 8.4 million births. So we do have a choice. Not

everything is pre-ordained.

 

Hari Shanker Deo

 

 

Dear Sadhaks,

It is true that nothing moves without HIS will. But Bhagavan has created and

designed the whole creation that nothing goes missing without HIS knowledge is

the meaning. This is very large subject to go in detail. But an example can be

given. Human has 5 pranas, governed by 5 boothas and 5 layers Auras (which can

be photographed by Kerlion Camara). So any smallest Thought or action or both

are independent to humans. Every action or thought is recorded by the one`s own

Aura resulting in cause and effect. The action done by body is called Kayaka

Karma. Finding mistake on anything is also wrong Karma as one forgets the Eswara

Sarvaboothanam. The thought is called Maanisha Karma. So when one does good or

bad it is automatically rewarded. This means the actions does not go unrewarded.

This again means that Bhagavan is under knowledge of all. So it means that

nothing moves without HIS knowledge. One has to understand that to come to Human

form from lower births is with HIS grace. Human is given independence to do

Karmas. This independence (By way of intellect) to Human is given by Bhagavan to

elevate to Divinity

B.Sathyanarayan

 

-

 

GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES:

1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify their doubts

related to Gitaji shalokas. Therefore, responses which further

clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be posted.

2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to

substantiate your response.

3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the

extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas

4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting

sadhaka's time.

5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only.

6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other

organizations.

7. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone

number, address etc.

8. Please do not address the response to a particular individual

since the message is going to the entire group.

9. Due to the large readership, all responses may not be posted.

10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if content

is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the group.

11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth,

westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use to Sanskrit

words only, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit bracketed

wherever possible.

 

MODERATOR

Ram Ram

------------------------

 

Post message:

Subscribe: -

Un: -

[Guest guest]

Narayana Narayana

 

In English

 

It is said that not a leaf can move without Bhagwaan's will

(wishes), then how is man independent in performing actions?

 

Ramchandra

 

In Hindi

Bhagwan ki marji ke bina pataa bhi nahin hiltaa, phir manushya karam

karne mein kaise swatantra hai?

 

Ramchandra

 

 

 

NEW POSTING

 

 

Hari Om

 

Not a leaf " moves " is the result. Sure! It is in God's hands only.

What is stated is that " not a leaf moves " . It is not stated that " no

effort to move a leaf " is possible by a human being. Question of

free will arises in making efforts - not in results thereof. Hence

you can always make an effort to move the leaf. You are independent

in that. After you do your karma say to " move the leaf " , whether

the leaf moves or not is not in your hands.

 

As simple as that! " Karmanye vaadhikaraste, ma phaleshu kadchan " -

you are entitled to make efforts, you have no role to play in

consequential results !

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

-------------------------------

 

Priy pratap ji

you let or dont let BUT Thy will be done. thats for sure.

Raja Gurdasani

-------------------------------

namasthe all,

 

Everything happens (eacha nd every small and minute action, whatever

it may be), only with the GRACE/POWER/DIVINITY of that SUPREME

divinity.

Regards,

Bharathi

 

 

--------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

 

Man or woman is not independent in performing actions as long as one

takes oneself to be body identified person. This body identification

provides a stage to function in the world-stage for playing one's

roles to serve. Unfortunately this identification provides plateform

on which " individuality " in terms of desires, fears, likes/dislikes

constitute subtle body-mind-stuff, which takes control of his/her

life. This is what he/she calls " I " or " me " , and thus 'mineness " is

born. ( " Mineness " is born only after " me " is born first).

 

When one such a one acts, it is only this " me " , disguised as

desires/fears really act, and always attempts to protect " imagined

him/her " or what is perceived to be of his/hers.

 

So there is no independent actions out of such a one, always reacting

to situations in self-defense not knowing his true SELF-Atman-true

independence to act.

 

When one acquires the knowledge of one's true Self, through whatever

means prescribed in Gita or other Scriptures, one is aware of " me " in

its true colors just as it arises and stays away from acting to

protect it. There is a total freedom to act out of That which we

truly

are, Love, Compassion ourselves in the abscense of " me " !

 

Actions are then seen as coming from Totality of Being and not

personal.

 

Such a one can truly say " Let Thy Will be done " as Jesus said. When a

leaf moves, it is God's will through nature, and when we act, it is

God as our Will acts, whatever be the act!

 

Namaskar........

 

Pratap Bhatt

 

What we are today is the result of our past karmas. What we will

become in our next birth will be the result of our present karmas.

The

goal of every soul is to become one with God ultimately, that is for

the atma to become one with Parmatma. This is called attaining moksh

or liberation from the endless and painful cycle of birth and death.

Since everything in this world is an illusion, it is upto us to first

connect with our soul through meditation and through good karmas,

then

to attain moksh from 8.4 million births. So we do have a choice. Not

everything is pre-ordained.

 

Hari Shanker Deo

 

 

Dear Sadhaks,

It is true that nothing moves without HIS will. But Bhagavan has

created and

designed the whole creation that nothing goes missing without HIS

knowledge is

the meaning. This is very large subject to go in detail. But an

example can be

given. Human has 5 pranas, governed by 5 boothas and 5 layers Auras

(which can

be photographed by Kerlion Camara). So any smallest Thought or

action or both

are independent to humans. Every action or thought is recorded by

the one`s own

Aura resulting in cause and effect. The action done by body is

called Kayaka

Karma. Finding mistake on anything is also wrong Karma as one

forgets the Eswara

Sarvaboothanam. The thought is called Maanisha Karma. So when one

does good or

bad it is automatically rewarded. This means the actions does not go

unrewarded.

This again means that Bhagavan is under knowledge of all. So it

means that

nothing moves without HIS knowledge. One has to understand that to

come to Human

form from lower births is with HIS grace. Human is given

independence to do

Karmas. This independence (By way of intellect) to Human is given by

Bhagavan to

elevate to Divinity

B.Sathyanarayan

 

-

 

GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES:

1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify their doubts

related to Gitaji shalokas. Therefore, responses which further

clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be posted.

2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to

substantiate your response.

3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the

extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas

4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting

sadhaka's time.

5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only.

6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other

organizations.

7. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone

number, address etc.

8. Please do not address the response to a particular individual

since the message is going to the entire group.

9. Due to the large readership, all responses may not be posted.

10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if content

is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the group.

11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth,

westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use to Sanskrit

words only, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit bracketed

wherever possible.

 

MODERATOR

Ram Ram

------------------------

 

Post message:

Subscribe: -

Un: -

[Guest guest]

Narayana Narayana

 

In English

 

It is said that not a leaf can move without Bhagwaan's will

(wishes), then how is man independent in performing actions?

 

Ramchandra

 

In Hindi

Bhagwan ki marji ke bina pataa bhi nahin hiltaa, phir manushya karam

karne mein kaise swatantra hai?

 

Ramchandra

 

 

 

NEW POSTING

 

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

In English

 

Brother Ramji, Your asking the question, and this written response

is also happening as per Paramatma's Will. By such acceptance, it

will make you contented, that what happened was Paramatma's will,

and that which did not happen was our desire (which was apart from

Paramatma's will) . That is it ! The work is done, and once again

we become engaged in meditating on that Paramatma. Ram Ram Ram

 

Vineet, Sarvottam

 

IN HINDI

Bhaiyyaa Ramji, Aapkaa prashna poochnaa aur yeh utter likhnaa bhi

usee Paramaatmaaki icchaa (sweekruti) ke anusaar ho rahaa hai. Isse

aise sweekaar karnaa aapko santushta karegaa ki jo huaa wah toh thi

Paramaatmaa ki icchaa aur jo kuch bhi nahin huaa wah thi humaari

(Paramaatmaatmaa se alag) icchaa. Bas kaam ban gayaa aur lag gaye

usi Paramaatmaa ke dhyaan mein. Ram Ram Ram.

 

Vineet, Sarvottam

 

-------------------------------

Jai Hanuman

 

Pratap Bhaiyya! Read again your first sentence ! Frankly I did not

read afterwards! There is no question of there being any doubt

whatsoever in a person " not having a free will/independence in

performing an action " ! One always has a free will there !! Come

what may !!!

 

Similarly there is no question or doubt of there " being any kind of

free will or independence in the results of an action " made by a

person - come what may !!

 

Efforts/performance is always in your hands. Results is always

beyond your hands !

 

There are subtle principles Jee - in the above laws , too !! They

appear juxtaposing but in reality they indeed are crystal clear!

 

I can also argue that the results ultimately are chosen/ determined

by the " doer " ! Come on !! That also is equally true - but in long

term and in reality ! How incomprehensible and contradictory that

reality appears ? But still true !! Truth prevails in whatever way

you see that, from whatever angle you perceive that, in whichever

position you are positioned !! Afterall it is truth !

 

Pratap Bhaiyya !! I am also aware of the fact that " karmanusarini

buddhih " ( Intellect changes as per prior deeds) - but Dear Brother,

I also know that " Purushartha " (capacity of humans to do karmas-

free will / independence ) prevails over waves of " sphuranas " (

thoughts arising due to prior deeds- Prarabdha )caused by altered

intellect due to past karmas , Jee !

 

All said and done- " Anhonee hoti nahin, honi hai so hoi " ( What is

not to 'happen' shall not, what is to 'happen' shall ) - at the same

time - in 'doing' you always remain free/independent ! That is law !!

 

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

--------------------------------

 

-------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Hari Om

 

Not a leaf " moves " is the result. Sure! It is in God's hands only.

What is stated is that " not a leaf moves " . It is not stated that " no

effort to move a leaf " is possible by a human being. Question of

free will arises in making efforts - not in results thereof. Hence

you can always make an effort to move the leaf. You are independent

in that. After you do your karma say to " move the leaf " , whether

the leaf moves or not is not in your hands.

 

As simple as that! " Karmanye vaadhikaraste, ma phaleshu kadchan " -

you are entitled to make efforts, you have no role to play in

consequential results !

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

-------------------------------

 

Priy pratap ji

you let or dont let BUT Thy will be done. thats for sure.

Raja Gurdasani

-------------------------------

namasthe all,

 

Everything happens (eacha nd every small and minute action, whatever

it may be), only with the GRACE/POWER/DIVINITY of that SUPREME

divinity.

Regards,

Bharathi

 

 

--------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

 

Man or woman is not independent in performing actions as long as one

takes oneself to be body identified person. This body identification

provides a stage to function in the world-stage for playing one's

roles to serve. Unfortunately this identification provides plateform

on which " individuality " in terms of desires, fears, likes/dislikes

constitute subtle body-mind-stuff, which takes control of his/her

life. This is what he/she calls " I " or " me " , and thus 'mineness " is

born. ( " Mineness " is born only after " me " is born first).

 

When one such a one acts, it is only this " me " , disguised as

desires/fears really act, and always attempts to protect " imagined

him/her " or what is perceived to be of his/hers.

 

So there is no independent actions out of such a one, always reacting

to situations in self-defense not knowing his true SELF-Atman-true

independence to act.

 

When one acquires the knowledge of one's true Self, through whatever

means prescribed in Gita or other Scriptures, one is aware of " me " in

its true colors just as it arises and stays away from acting to

protect it. There is a total freedom to act out of That which we

truly

are, Love, Compassion ourselves in the abscense of " me " !

 

Actions are then seen as coming from Totality of Being and not

personal.

 

Such a one can truly say " Let Thy Will be done " as Jesus said. When a

leaf moves, it is God's will through nature, and when we act, it is

God as our Will acts, whatever be the act!

 

Namaskar........

 

Pratap Bhatt

 

What we are today is the result of our past karmas. What we will

become in our next birth will be the result of our present karmas.

The

goal of every soul is to become one with God ultimately, that is for

the atma to become one with Parmatma. This is called attaining moksh

or liberation from the endless and painful cycle of birth and death.

Since everything in this world is an illusion, it is upto us to first

connect with our soul through meditation and through good karmas,

then

to attain moksh from 8.4 million births. So we do have a choice. Not

everything is pre-ordained.

 

Hari Shanker Deo

 

 

Dear Sadhaks,

It is true that nothing moves without HIS will. But Bhagavan has

created and

designed the whole creation that nothing goes missing without HIS

knowledge is

the meaning. This is very large subject to go in detail. But an

example can be

given. Human has 5 pranas, governed by 5 boothas and 5 layers Auras

(which can

be photographed by Kerlion Camara). So any smallest Thought or

action or both

are independent to humans. Every action or thought is recorded by

the one`s own

Aura resulting in cause and effect. The action done by body is

called Kayaka

Karma. Finding mistake on anything is also wrong Karma as one

forgets the Eswara

Sarvaboothanam. The thought is called Maanisha Karma. So when one

does good or

bad it is automatically rewarded. This means the actions does not go

unrewarded.

This again means that Bhagavan is under knowledge of all. So it

means that

nothing moves without HIS knowledge. One has to understand that to

come to Human

form from lower births is with HIS grace. Human is given

independence to do

Karmas. This independence (By way of intellect) to Human is given by

Bhagavan to

elevate to Divinity

B.Sathyanarayan

 

-

 

GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES:

1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify their doubts

related to Gitaji shalokas. Therefore, responses which further

clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be posted.

2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to

substantiate your response.

3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the

extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas

4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting

sadhaka's time.

5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only.

6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other

organizations.

7. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone

number, address etc.

8. Please do not address the response to a particular individual

since the message is going to the entire group.

9. Due to the large readership, all responses may not be posted.

10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if content

is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the group.

11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth,

westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use to Sanskrit

words only, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit bracketed

wherever possible.

 

MODERATOR

Ram Ram

------------------------

 

Post message:

Subscribe: -

Un: -

[Guest guest]

Narayana Narayana

 

In English

 

It is said that not a leaf can move without Bhagwaan's will

(wishes), then how is man independent in performing actions?

 

Ramchandra

 

In Hindi

Bhagwan ki marji ke bina pataa bhi nahin hiltaa, phir manushya karam

karne mein kaise swatantra hai?

 

Ramchandra

 

 

 

NEW POSTING

 

Hari Om

 

I think the following principle brought out by Vineetji must be

reconsidered by him for it defies all logics :

 

" that what happened was Paramatma's will, and that which did not

happen was our desire (which was apart from Paramatma's will) .That

is it! " All happennings are His will . Where is question of any

distinction of the type " which did not happen was our desire (which

was apart from His will) " ??? How what does not happen is our

desire? What can happen which is apart from His will ?

 

Translation from Hindi to English has not contributed to this.

 

Please clarify.

 

Principle as grasped by me from Swamiji and Gitaji is-

 

" In every doing we are independent, in any happenning, we are not

independent "

 

That is law. No happenning is capable enough to force a reaction

from us. No doing can be forced.

 

Moreover, to say that even asking the question by Sadhak Ramji

writing the answer by you is due to divine will is a faulty concept.

It snatches away capacity of human being of " karmanye

vaadhikaraste " ! God does not like us to attribute our independence

of doing karmas too to His divine will. How can He? You can't remain

without doing Karma even for a fraction of a second - this means you

are responsible for the same. God is not responsible for the same.

He only gave us independence. He is a disinterested friend. We reap

as we sow ! Even if you are totally " surrendered " soul or even if

you are " liberated " - " in doing " you have complete independence so

long you live in a human body. Just imagine, if some sadhak

stretches this concept a bit further and says " I did this deed ,

because God willed that " . That deed can be any deed - why not?

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

-

 

Dear all,

Bhagawaan has given us the intellect to discriminate what we should

do and what we should desist from doing as being not spiritually

good. He has also allowed His Maaya to have its sway on us to see if

we heed to the intellect or come under the sway of ignorance.

A spiritually oriented man does what is good or Shreyas and desists

from the pleasurable or Preyas. Here is man's independance. Also

allowing us to do what we choose to is Bhagawaan's will.

Jai Shree Krishna!

Prof ( Major ) Ramanujam

 

 

Dear Sadaks,

We know that we are single Advaitham (No you and me) as it

says " Aham Bramasmi " . You are part of Braman and have the

indipencence of thought and action. But you have NO indipendence

over death, birth, place of birth, caste, to whom born, whether in

rich or poor family, the type of Karma (cart puller, car driver,

train driver, house maid, luxurious life, handicapped, beautiful or

ugly, one time popper another face of life rich, rich becoming poor

ETC ETc). For the action and thought one does one is responsible.

Valmiki Rishi was a thief earlier until Sage Nararad told that

robbing other will yield sins that affects only him NOT to his

family members though they are enjoying the gain from theft.

Realization took place and he became Valmiki. Here one can note why

Sage Narad chose this perticular thief to impart knowledge though

there were 100 of thieves. Karma Pala of earlier birth brings Guru

to rescue.

" Karmanye vaadhikaraste, ma phaleshu kadchan " - I feel that this

means one is indipendant of performing action, but NOT indipendant

to decide the fruit of Action. Scripts say that Sri Vishnu is giver

of Karma Pala. Kans could have been killed along with other demons.

Time factor. Sank is the sound of Warning and Chakra is time factor

of Sri Vishnu. Garuda is symbol of speed as Sri Vishnu is sustainer

which is required fast enough to keep life going. Bagavan Shiva

destructor-- Buffelow is time factor (slow and steady the time and

aging takes place without one` s knowledge), small drum on HIS hand

is death knell, thrishulam takes the soul from body. Vibhuti (Sacred

ashes of Bagavan Shiva) is that one becomes ashes after death.

Many do wrong things like murdering, raping, robbing, insulting Etc.

This is because of independence given to human. Animals have no

intellect and they behave as they are. So animals do not do anything

independently (They remain silent even if they are killed and the

animal from that herd does not revenge- Like father got killed son

revenges) That is why animals raise from lower birth to human level.

So I feel that, " HUMAN IS INDEPENDENT OF ACTION BUT NOT INDEPENDENT

OF THE FRUITS OF ACTION " . " Karmanye vaadhikaraste, ma phaleshu

kadchan "

PARDON ME IF I AM WRONG

B.Sathyanarayan

 

 

PRIOR POSTING

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

In English

 

Brother Ramji, Your asking the question, and this written response

is also happening as per Paramatma's Will. By such acceptance, it

will make you contented, that what happened was Paramatma's will,

and that which did not happen was our desire (which was apart from

Paramatma's will) . That is it ! The work is done, and once again

we become engaged in meditating on that Paramatma. Ram Ram Ram

 

Vineet, Sarvottam

 

IN HINDI

Bhaiyyaa Ramji, Aapkaa prashna poochnaa aur yeh utter likhnaa bhi

usee Paramaatmaaki icchaa (sweekruti) ke anusaar ho rahaa hai. Isse

aise sweekaar karnaa aapko santushta karegaa ki jo huaa wah toh thi

Paramaatmaa ki icchaa aur jo kuch bhi nahin huaa wah thi humaari

(Paramaatmaatmaa se alag) icchaa. Bas kaam ban gayaa aur lag gaye

usi Paramaatmaa ke dhyaan mein. Ram Ram Ram.

 

Vineet, Sarvottam

 

-------------------------------

Jai Hanuman

 

Pratap Bhaiyya! Read again your first sentence ! Frankly I did not

read afterwards! There is no question of there being any doubt

whatsoever in a person " not having a free will/independence in

performing an action " ! One always has a free will there !! Come

what may !!!

 

Similarly there is no question or doubt of there " being any kind of

free will or independence in the results of an action " made by a

person - come what may !!

 

Efforts/performance is always in your hands. Results is always

beyond your hands !

 

There are subtle principles Jee - in the above laws , too !! They

appear juxtaposing but in reality they indeed are crystal clear!

 

I can also argue that the results ultimately are chosen/ determined

by the " doer " ! Come on !! That also is equally true - but in long

term and in reality ! How incomprehensible and contradictory that

reality appears ? But still true !! Truth prevails in whatever way

you see that, from whatever angle you perceive that, in whichever

position you are positioned !! Afterall it is truth !

 

Pratap Bhaiyya !! I am also aware of the fact that " karmanusarini

buddhih " ( Intellect changes as per prior deeds) - but Dear Brother,

I also know that " Purushartha " (capacity of humans to do karmas-

free will / independence ) prevails over waves of " sphuranas " (

thoughts arising due to prior deeds- Prarabdha )caused by altered

intellect due to past karmas , Jee !

 

All said and done- " Anhonee hoti nahin, honi hai so hoi " ( What is

not to 'happen' shall not, what is to 'happen' shall ) - at the same

time - in 'doing' you always remain free/independent ! That is law !!

 

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

--------------------------------

 

-------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Hari Om

 

Not a leaf " moves " is the result. Sure! It is in God's hands only.

What is stated is that " not a leaf moves " . It is not stated that " no

effort to move a leaf " is possible by a human being. Question of

free will arises in making efforts - not in results thereof. Hence

you can always make an effort to move the leaf. You are independent

in that. After you do your karma say to " move the leaf " , whether

the leaf moves or not is not in your hands.

 

As simple as that! " Karmanye vaadhikaraste, ma phaleshu kadchan " -

you are entitled to make efforts, you have no role to play in

consequential results !

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

-------------------------------

 

Priy pratap ji

you let or dont let BUT Thy will be done. thats for sure.

Raja Gurdasani

-------------------------------

namasthe all,

 

Everything happens (eacha nd every small and minute action, whatever

it may be), only with the GRACE/POWER/DIVINITY of that SUPREME

divinity.

Regards,

Bharathi

 

 

--------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

 

Man or woman is not independent in performing actions as long as one

takes oneself to be body identified person. This body identification

provides a stage to function in the world-stage for playing one's

roles to serve. Unfortunately this identification provides plateform

on which " individuality " in terms of desires, fears, likes/dislikes

constitute subtle body-mind-stuff, which takes control of his/her

life. This is what he/she calls " I " or " me " , and thus 'mineness " is

born. ( " Mineness " is born only after " me " is born first).

 

When one such a one acts, it is only this " me " , disguised as

desires/fears really act, and always attempts to protect " imagined

him/her " or what is perceived to be of his/hers.

 

So there is no independent actions out of such a one, always reacting

to situations in self-defense not knowing his true SELF-Atman-true

independence to act.

 

When one acquires the knowledge of one's true Self, through whatever

means prescribed in Gita or other Scriptures, one is aware of " me " in

its true colors just as it arises and stays away from acting to

protect it. There is a total freedom to act out of That which we

truly

are, Love, Compassion ourselves in the abscense of " me " !

 

Actions are then seen as coming from Totality of Being and not

personal.

 

Such a one can truly say " Let Thy Will be done " as Jesus said. When a

leaf moves, it is God's will through nature, and when we act, it is

God as our Will acts, whatever be the act!

 

Namaskar........

 

Pratap Bhatt

 

What we are today is the result of our past karmas. What we will

become in our next birth will be the result of our present karmas.

The

goal of every soul is to become one with God ultimately, that is for

the atma to become one with Parmatma. This is called attaining moksh

or liberation from the endless and painful cycle of birth and death.

Since everything in this world is an illusion, it is upto us to first

connect with our soul through meditation and through good karmas,

then

to attain moksh from 8.4 million births. So we do have a choice. Not

everything is pre-ordained.

 

Hari Shanker Deo

 

 

Dear Sadhaks,

It is true that nothing moves without HIS will. But Bhagavan has

created and

designed the whole creation that nothing goes missing without HIS

knowledge is

the meaning. This is very large subject to go in detail. But an

example can be

given. Human has 5 pranas, governed by 5 boothas and 5 layers Auras

(which can

be photographed by Kerlion Camara). So any smallest Thought or

action or both

are independent to humans. Every action or thought is recorded by

the one`s own

Aura resulting in cause and effect. The action done by body is

called Kayaka

Karma. Finding mistake on anything is also wrong Karma as one

forgets the Eswara

Sarvaboothanam. The thought is called Maanisha Karma. So when one

does good or

bad it is automatically rewarded. This means the actions does not go

unrewarded.

This again means that Bhagavan is under knowledge of all. So it

means that

nothing moves without HIS knowledge. One has to understand that to

come to Human

form from lower births is with HIS grace. Human is given

independence to do

Karmas. This independence (By way of intellect) to Human is given by

Bhagavan to

elevate to Divinity

B.Sathyanarayan

 

-

 

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Ram Ram

------------------------

 

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Narayana Narayana

 

In English

 

It is said that not a leaf can move without Bhagwaan's will

(wishes), then how is man independent in performing actions?

 

Ramchandra

 

In Hindi

Bhagwan ki marji ke bina pataa bhi nahin hiltaa, phir manushya karam

karne mein kaise swatantra hai?

 

Ramchandra

 

 

 

NEW POSTING

 

Hari Om

 

One can't cease to admire the talent accumulated in this GT Group.

Indeed it is a divine group. How humble are real Satsangis !! One

such humble Satsangi is B Sathyanarainji. In every posting of him,

you will find history, names and references of great souls !! He

invariably remembers realised souls, great characters of past, great

events stated in our Holy Scriptures !.

 

No Sir. You can never be wrong !

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

-------------------------------

 

The following may kindly be added to the response given by Sadak

Vyas N B

 

" After you do your karma say to " move the leaf " , whether

the leaf moves or not is not in your hands. "

+

and very interestingly no sincere and honest effort goes waste.

The leaf moves.

 

For more, one needs to understand " Who am I " by self enquiry......

Best wishes...

 

Sushil Jain

-------------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

This refers to Shashikalaji's observations on my previous post. With

all respects, I may point out that I wish, Shashikalaji, you had

read entire post, instead of stopping after the first sentence as

you say you did.

If asked what does " person " who is supposed to have free-will mean,

what would be the answer? For me, it means a sense of " I-me " rooted

in desires, fears, and likes/dislikes.

This sense of " I-me " becomes so strong in the absence of

questioning, " it " becomes person himself/herself. " It " (insentient)

becomes " me " , so to speak.

This " I " is the superimposed sense on Reality of Being(Is-ness as

Swamiji calls).

All actions, ordinarily, are decided/driven by desires/fears,

likes/dislike(raagas/dwesha), pleasurable/painful experiences of the

past memories. And unfortunately, the person thinks " he " is acting

as if " me-doer " is different than " his " (assumed only) desires or

fears or likes/dislikes! Isn't this strange, come to think of it? Is

there such a thing as Person with free-will, if this is his story?

It is as if he/she is programmed by such conditioning which controls

his/her entire life. Where is the freedom to act in such a

programmed person? Person itself is fictitious entity and so is the

free-will of such a person. (please see this crucial point, that

which acts is conditioning, not a person entity, then it is easy to

see no free-will in conditioning).

 

Even when he pretends to have free-will it is only out of knowns,

sum total of conditioning, karmas, called mind or ignorance-Jeeva or

subtle/causal body. Free-will is limited in scope, whereas

Freedom/Independence we are talking here, is Freedom from

conditioning/karmas, freedom even from demand for freedom. (If Shiva

wants play jeeva, who can stop?)

So even when he decides to act differently in the name of

purushartha to overpower karmas, the actions are still based on

different sets of knowns (this is the extent of his free-will). All

Knowns being limited, it cannot bring freedom that comes from taking

true stand as Atman!

Thus, as I understand, either through self-knowledge, or through

self-surrender or selfless karmas, person(doership-Karta) disappears

into Atman-Consciousness which IS all Impersonal Intelligence(not

personal intellect), divine intimation(conscience) speaks to an

apparant " person " as His instrument to act for greater good.

This is what Arjuna did.

OF course, no body can deny that result of action is what it would

be according to many variables, only one of which is this supposed

person with free-will.

 

In " karmanyevadikaraste " verse of Gita, my understanding is that

person has choice in acting only, not on the result. But the acts

that come from him/her is not necessarily from freedom, unless one

takes stand as Atman! No one can remain without doing karma(Gita)

suggests that " personal " freedom is not given because it may be in

conflict with Divine Will.

 

In another context, I can say that person has just one free-will,

and that is that he/she can choose to remain body-mind identified

individual or be Atman(by knowing/surrendering).

If he/she doesn't exercise this one freedom given to all, then that

is the last freedom he had, and he remains bound essentially!

Thus, as I understand, it is better to act as if God as Will in " me "

is acting through " me " , the instrument. THEN, all actions are going

to be Divine and can never be evil even if they seem like evil

(mahabharat war). Try this perspective, and see what happens!

Namaskar...............Pratap

 

 

JAI SITARAMJIKI. No doubt not even a leaf moves without God's will;

In a billionth of a second the whole universe, each atom, is being

destroyed and remade. When I started writing and at this moment now

I

am not the same person, just like you cannot take a second dip in the

same water of a river; it is always a new water which has come along.

I, each atom of me, has been destroyed and remade. This is how the

universe is working which gives each one of us a chance to inject our

karma, whether good or bad, but then do not forget that we have

accumulated so much of the past karma in our millions of previous

births (we are carrying a heavy load of our past karma) that that

tendency or sanskars motivate us to decide whether we act for the

good

of all, or selfishly for our own good only; and therefore we

ourselves

are the only one responsible for whatever we do or do not do. If you

pray hard enough and do NAAM JAP all the time, and surrender your

will

to God, God will help you to make only the right decisions henceforth

thus changing your destiny for the better.

 

BHAJ RE MANA SITARAM SITARAM SITARAM.

 

Sher Agrawal

 

Dear Sadaks,

Many desires are full filled in practical life and many remain

unfull filled. The root for desire is our own Prarabdha Karma. What

one desires other hates- How? Karma. The thoughts of desires arises

from within designed by Bagavan. It is we feel by Maya that

unfulfilled or fulfilled.

B.Sathyanarayan

 

How is Man independent in performing actions ?

 

It depends on our perception – our beleifs – of what is action and

what is man. Any change in matter-energy patterns perpetuated

through one's body, mind and senses is normally conceived as action.

Generally speaking, an idividual calling himself man believes to be

independent in performing several actions because he knows how he

depends on many for the actualising the same. In other words,

independence is claimed only with the dependence in the background.

 

Any action perceived is a conjugation between an individual and its

environment. The individual, the environment, as well as the medium

of interaction between the two are equal particpants in any

perceived action. I can't call any of these as even partners because

I do not think any of these are independently or collectively

capable of precipitating an action on their own. All the actions

perceived are fragments of images of the monolithic Action Supreme

as sensed by the cognitive cluster of senses the individual is

blessed with.

 

The perception is apparently in individual's hand and hence one

often utters that a man (and a woman, an animal, a plant, and

anything as such) is independent to perceive … incapable of

distingushing a perception from an action, one may try to claim an

indepednece of performing action as well. Truly speaking, even

perception examined carefully reveals the fact that so many elements

of one's system are involved even to perceive the thoughts … let

alone act upon the physical world.

 

Na hi kashchit kshanamapi jaatu tishthatyakarmakrit |

Kaaryate hyavashah karma sarvah prakritijairgunaih ||

 

Nothing in this universe is capable of negating The Action and

transcend the mode of action. Everything is optionless but to follow

the course of action dictated by the individual nature.

 

Bhayadasyaagnistapati bhayaattapati suryah |

Bhayaadindrashch vaayushcha Mrityurdhaavati panchamah ||

 

Everything, let alone perishable beings like a man, even cosmic

forces such as sun, fire, matter, death, and knowledge follow the

locus of action with absolute obedience.

 

Karma bramhodbhavam viddhi bramhaakshara samudbhavam |

Tasmaatsarvagatam bramha nityam yagnye pratishthitam ||

 

The Action is verily rooted in The Absolute being The Invariant as

such. The Absolute is inherent in everything through The Action as

such being the Invariant in all the variance that could be perceived

in this universe.

 

If it all anything is independent only The Action is independent.

Probably, man who has identified one with The Action could also be

independent in performing actions. But the difficulty here is there

is nothing left to act upon in such as state! There is no plurality

of actions in such a unified state!!

 

On the other hand, the notion of independence is stemms out of our

belief in dependence on the elements of life to conduct our own

lives. From spiritual stand point, when every element in this

universe is just participating in the action as per its own nature,

how can anything depend on anything at all? If we examine carefully,

the very notion of dependence becomes a myth. Therefore, the

imagination built upon such a myth – independence – is just an

illusion.

 

Therefore, the statement " a man is independent of performing

actions " does not make sense to me from spiritual perspective

wherein the concepts such as independence, performance, plurality of

action, etc. disperse into the oblivion once the bliefs that support

their legetimacy is rattled with absolute persistence.

 

Respects.

 

Naga Narayana

 

 

PRIOR POSTING

 

Hari Om

 

I think the following principle brought out by Vineetji must be

reconsidered by him for it defies all logics :

 

" that what happened was Paramatma's will, and that which did not

happen was our desire (which was apart from Paramatma's will) .That

is it! " All happennings are His will . Where is question of any

distinction of the type " which did not happen was our desire (which

was apart from His will) " ??? How what does not happen is our

desire? What can happen which is apart from His will ?

 

Translation from Hindi to English has not contributed to this.

 

Please clarify.

 

Principle as grasped by me from Swamiji and Gitaji is-

 

" In every doing we are independent, in any happenning, we are not

independent "

 

That is law. No happenning is capable enough to force a reaction

from us. No doing can be forced.

 

Moreover, to say that even asking the question by Sadhak Ramji

writing the answer by you is due to divine will is a faulty concept.

It snatches away capacity of human being of " karmanye

vaadhikaraste " ! God does not like us to attribute our independence

of doing karmas too to His divine will. How can He? You can't remain

without doing Karma even for a fraction of a second - this means you

are responsible for the same. God is not responsible for the same.

He only gave us independence. He is a disinterested friend. We reap

as we sow ! Even if you are totally " surrendered " soul or even if

you are " liberated " - " in doing " you have complete independence so

long you live in a human body. Just imagine, if some sadhak

stretches this concept a bit further and says " I did this deed ,

because God willed that " . That deed can be any deed - why not?

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

-

 

Dear all,

Bhagawaan has given us the intellect to discriminate what we should

do and what we should desist from doing as being not spiritually

good. He has also allowed His Maaya to have its sway on us to see if

we heed to the intellect or come under the sway of ignorance.

A spiritually oriented man does what is good or Shreyas and desists

from the pleasurable or Preyas. Here is man's independance. Also

allowing us to do what we choose to is Bhagawaan's will.

Jai Shree Krishna!

Prof ( Major ) Ramanujam

 

 

Dear Sadaks,

We know that we are single Advaitham (No you and me) as it

says " Aham Bramasmi " . You are part of Braman and have the

indipencence of thought and action. But you have NO indipendence

over death, birth, place of birth, caste, to whom born, whether in

rich or poor family, the type of Karma (cart puller, car driver,

train driver, house maid, luxurious life, handicapped, beautiful or

ugly, one time popper another face of life rich, rich becoming poor

ETC ETc). For the action and thought one does one is responsible.

Valmiki Rishi was a thief earlier until Sage Nararad told that

robbing other will yield sins that affects only him NOT to his

family members though they are enjoying the gain from theft.

Realization took place and he became Valmiki. Here one can note why

Sage Narad chose this perticular thief to impart knowledge though

there were 100 of thieves. Karma Pala of earlier birth brings Guru

to rescue.

" Karmanye vaadhikaraste, ma phaleshu kadchan " - I feel that this

means one is indipendant of performing action, but NOT indipendant

to decide the fruit of Action. Scripts say that Sri Vishnu is giver

of Karma Pala. Kans could have been killed along with other demons.

Time factor. Sank is the sound of Warning and Chakra is time factor

of Sri Vishnu. Garuda is symbol of speed as Sri Vishnu is sustainer

which is required fast enough to keep life going. Bagavan Shiva

destructor-- Buffelow is time factor (slow and steady the time and

aging takes place without one` s knowledge), small drum on HIS hand

is death knell, thrishulam takes the soul from body. Vibhuti (Sacred

ashes of Bagavan Shiva) is that one becomes ashes after death.

Many do wrong things like murdering, raping, robbing, insulting Etc.

This is because of independence given to human. Animals have no

intellect and they behave as they are. So animals do not do anything

independently (They remain silent even if they are killed and the

animal from that herd does not revenge- Like father got killed son

revenges) That is why animals raise from lower birth to human level.

So I feel that, " HUMAN IS INDEPENDENT OF ACTION BUT NOT INDEPENDENT

OF THE FRUITS OF ACTION " . " Karmanye vaadhikaraste, ma phaleshu

kadchan "

PARDON ME IF I AM WRONG

B.Sathyanarayan

 

 

PRIOR POSTING

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

In English

 

Brother Ramji, Your asking the question, and this written response

is also happening as per Paramatma's Will. By such acceptance, it

will make you contented, that what happened was Paramatma's will,

and that which did not happen was our desire (which was apart from

Paramatma's will) . That is it ! The work is done, and once again

we become engaged in meditating on that Paramatma. Ram Ram Ram

 

Vineet, Sarvottam

 

IN HINDI

Bhaiyyaa Ramji, Aapkaa prashna poochnaa aur yeh utter likhnaa bhi

usee Paramaatmaaki icchaa (sweekruti) ke anusaar ho rahaa hai. Isse

aise sweekaar karnaa aapko santushta karegaa ki jo huaa wah toh thi

Paramaatmaa ki icchaa aur jo kuch bhi nahin huaa wah thi humaari

(Paramaatmaatmaa se alag) icchaa. Bas kaam ban gayaa aur lag gaye

usi Paramaatmaa ke dhyaan mein. Ram Ram Ram.

 

Vineet, Sarvottam

 

-------------------------------

Jai Hanuman

 

Pratap Bhaiyya! Read again your first sentence ! Frankly I did not

read afterwards! There is no question of there being any doubt

whatsoever in a person " not having a free will/independence in

performing an action " ! One always has a free will there !! Come

what may !!!

 

Similarly there is no question or doubt of there " being any kind of

free will or independence in the results of an action " made by a

person - come what may !!

 

Efforts/performance is always in your hands. Results is always

beyond your hands !

 

There are subtle principles Jee - in the above laws , too !! They

appear juxtaposing but in reality they indeed are crystal clear!

 

I can also argue that the results ultimately are chosen/ determined

by the " doer " ! Come on !! That also is equally true - but in long

term and in reality ! How incomprehensible and contradictory that

reality appears ? But still true !! Truth prevails in whatever way

you see that, from whatever angle you perceive that, in whichever

position you are positioned !! Afterall it is truth !

 

Pratap Bhaiyya !! I am also aware of the fact that " karmanusarini

buddhih " ( Intellect changes as per prior deeds) - but Dear Brother,

I also know that " Purushartha " (capacity of humans to do karmas-

free will / independence ) prevails over waves of " sphuranas " (

thoughts arising due to prior deeds- Prarabdha )caused by altered

intellect due to past karmas , Jee !

 

All said and done- " Anhonee hoti nahin, honi hai so hoi " ( What is

not to 'happen' shall not, what is to 'happen' shall ) - at the same

time - in 'doing' you always remain free/independent ! That is law !!

 

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

--------------------------------

 

-------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Hari Om

 

Not a leaf " moves " is the result. Sure! It is in God's hands only.

What is stated is that " not a leaf moves " . It is not stated that " no

effort to move a leaf " is possible by a human being. Question of

free will arises in making efforts - not in results thereof. Hence

you can always make an effort to move the leaf. You are independent

in that. After you do your karma say to " move the leaf " , whether

the leaf moves or not is not in your hands.

 

As simple as that! " Karmanye vaadhikaraste, ma phaleshu kadchan " -

you are entitled to make efforts, you have no role to play in

consequential results !

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

-------------------------------

 

Priy pratap ji

you let or dont let BUT Thy will be done. thats for sure.

Raja Gurdasani

-------------------------------

namasthe all,

 

Everything happens (eacha nd every small and minute action, whatever

it may be), only with the GRACE/POWER/DIVINITY of that SUPREME

divinity.

Regards,

Bharathi

 

 

--------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

 

Man or woman is not independent in performing actions as long as one

takes oneself to be body identified person. This body identification

provides a stage to function in the world-stage for playing one's

roles to serve. Unfortunately this identification provides plateform

on which " individuality " in terms of desires, fears, likes/dislikes

constitute subtle body-mind-stuff, which takes control of his/her

life. This is what he/she calls " I " or " me " , and thus 'mineness " is

born. ( " Mineness " is born only after " me " is born first).

 

When one such a one acts, it is only this " me " , disguised as

desires/fears really act, and always attempts to protect " imagined

him/her " or what is perceived to be of his/hers.

 

So there is no independent actions out of such a one, always reacting

to situations in self-defense not knowing his true SELF-Atman-true

independence to act.

 

When one acquires the knowledge of one's true Self, through whatever

means prescribed in Gita or other Scriptures, one is aware of " me " in

its true colors just as it arises and stays away from acting to

protect it. There is a total freedom to act out of That which we

truly

are, Love, Compassion ourselves in the abscense of " me " !

 

Actions are then seen as coming from Totality of Being and not

personal.

 

Such a one can truly say " Let Thy Will be done " as Jesus said. When a

leaf moves, it is God's will through nature, and when we act, it is

God as our Will acts, whatever be the act!

 

Namaskar........

 

Pratap Bhatt

 

What we are today is the result of our past karmas. What we will

become in our next birth will be the result of our present karmas.

The

goal of every soul is to become one with God ultimately, that is for

the atma to become one with Parmatma. This is called attaining moksh

or liberation from the endless and painful cycle of birth and death.

Since everything in this world is an illusion, it is upto us to first

connect with our soul through meditation and through good karmas,

then

to attain moksh from 8.4 million births. So we do have a choice. Not

everything is pre-ordained.

 

Hari Shanker Deo

 

 

Dear Sadhaks,

It is true that nothing moves without HIS will. But Bhagavan has

created and

designed the whole creation that nothing goes missing without HIS

knowledge is

the meaning. This is very large subject to go in detail. But an

example can be

given. Human has 5 pranas, governed by 5 boothas and 5 layers Auras

(which can

be photographed by Kerlion Camara). So any smallest Thought or

action or both

are independent to humans. Every action or thought is recorded by

the one`s own

Aura resulting in cause and effect. The action done by body is

called Kayaka

Karma. Finding mistake on anything is also wrong Karma as one

forgets the Eswara

Sarvaboothanam. The thought is called Maanisha Karma. So when one

does good or

bad it is automatically rewarded. This means the actions does not go

unrewarded.

This again means that Bhagavan is under knowledge of all. So it

means that

nothing moves without HIS knowledge. One has to understand that to

come to Human

form from lower births is with HIS grace. Human is given

independence to do

Karmas. This independence (By way of intellect) to Human is given by

Bhagavan to

elevate to Divinity

B.Sathyanarayan

 

-

 

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------------------------

 

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Narayana Narayana

 

In English

 

It is said that not a leaf can move without Bhagwaan's will

(wishes), then how is man independent in performing actions?

 

Ramchandra

 

In Hindi

Bhagwan ki marji ke bina pataa bhi nahin hiltaa, phir manushya karam

karne mein kaise swatantra hai?

 

Ramchandra

 

 

 

NEW POSTING

 

-Shree Hari-

 

Vyasji I am so glad that you mentioned B Sathyanarainji, I always

read his comments to the best of my abilities, and realise there is

wise council in his revelations. Even though we may be at the oposite

ends of the divine rainbow, we are linked by this sacred Satsang.

Sathyanarainji you have my greatest respect, I bow to you.

 

Paramatma is; in all down to the smallest sub atomic particle,(and

beyond that), in 'The Supreme', is, as it were the 'Supreme

Intelligence', the 'Divine Will' holds all in existence.

If a leaf trembles in the wind, it is free to do so, if a person does

good or bad he/she is free to do so,(not withstanding Karma).

Remember good, bad, are opposites that exist in the illusion of duality.

 

In Gitaji 10:

Of what value is it for you

To know all this, O Arjuna?

I ever support this whole world

By just one portion of Myself. (42)

 

To me B.G. 10 as a whole is worth a read I believe when dealing with

this subject.

 

With Respect and Divine Love,

 

Mike Keenor

-------------------------------

 

Jai Shri Krishna,

 

Pratapji may please note that ONLY in human life a person has

privilege of " Free will " . Human life is adored by Scriptures because

of that only. Use your " conscience " , change your path ! If human

life is " programmed " then what makes this life superior to animals

or Devatas? Is God that cruel ? God or Shiva referred by you did not

make the players in this Lila - dependent/helpless ! In order

to " play " , a " player " must have independence!

 

You have free will / independence always, at all times in human

life, upto the last breath. Human life is the greatest form of life-

undoubtedly ! If in this life, one presumes that one

is " programmed " - then in which life he will get " unprogrammed " ?

 

Narayan Narayan

Rajendra J Bohra

 

 

 

Jai Hanuman

 

Ok Pratap Bhaiyya ! Now I have read it fully Jee ! Twice, Jee !! But

what is the theme ? Why did you lose independence? Why did you get

bound? Why other person is not as accurately and precisely bound by

the same " programmed action " ? Who fell into the well of desires,

me/mine notion? How? Exercise of " free will " , misutilisation

thereof !!

 

I quote you only here Pratapji :

 

" All actions, ordinarily, are decided/driven by desires/fears,

likes/dislike(raagas/dwesha), pleasurable/painful experiences of the

past memories. "

 

Now tell me - desires/fears/likes/dislikes of whom? Could you not

have chosen to be otherwise? Yes !! Can't you even today choose not

to be swayed by them? Yes !!

 

You have free will even when you are completely in " bondage " state.

Else how a sinner most person like Valmiki/Angulimaal became

Dharmatma? What is sanctity of Gita 9:31? Free will !! Correct

choice !! That choice is action !!

 

Let us Read again what you wrote:

 

" And unfortunately, the person thinks " he " is acting

as if " me-doer " is different than " his " (assumed only) desires or

fears or likes/dislikes! Isn't this strange, come to think of it? Is

there such a thing as Person with free-will, if this is his story? "

 

Is thinking or not thinking that " me/doer " is different or same or

whatever, not arising out of " free will " ? Do not you have

choice/option there ?? Tell me categorically what prevents you from

applying conscience and changing your perception? Free will is still

there with you! Bondage lies in mind only. Change the mind ! Who

prevents?

 

There after you stated :

 

" It is as if he/she is programmed by such conditioning which controls

his/her entire life. Where is the freedom to act in such a

programmed person? Person itself is fictitious entity and so is the

free-will of such a person.

 

Funny argument, isn't it- Pratap Bhaiyya ? Why did he fall into that

shape at first place? Misutilisation of free will ! Has he/she

referred by you become optionless now? No ! No !! If he/she is

programmed, doesn't that mean he/she can't realise God, or change

for better? Gone for ever ! Worse than even an animal ! No, it can't

be so ! Rather it is certainly not so !!

 

Is every human being is exactly what is described here ? No! No !!

Difference in degree/intensity/circumstances/positioning/ etc

between two individuals is due to what ? Exercise of that free

will !!

 

Your statements convert great human birth into a slave birth,

programmed by God as punishment !! Wrong! Wrong !

 

You went on to state :

 

In another context, I can say that person has just one free-will,

and that is that he/she can choose to remain body-mind identified

individual or be Atman(by knowing/surrendering).

If he/she doesn't exercise this one freedom given to all, then that

is the last freedom he had, and he remains bound essentially!

 

So in stroke, you concluded that " this one is the last freedom he

had and he remains bound essentially " !! Very Good Jee ! Now where

is need for Saints and Sages/Gitaji? Where is any scope left for

him/her to make amends? Free will destroyed for ever!! He/she is

gone for ever, Jee !! Isn't it? Now there are no options

available !! Human birth got wasted long back! Now cry and live as a

puppet! Animals then become far better than humans !!

 

Isn't that the conclusion? No I don't agree with you, once again ,

Pratap Bhaiyya ! You have " free will " alive in you at all times, in

all places, in all circumstances, so long as you are in human

body !! Even in most " bondaged state " - you have " free will " in you-

ready for use !! You can make amends anytime during the course of

human life ! Come On , Pratap Bhaiyya !! Human birth is sought even

by Demi Gods! Why ? Free Will available at all times, Jee ! Isn't

it ??

 

Please also note Pratap Bhaiyya- Both Karma Yoga and Jnana Yoga are

only practiced by a human being by remaining identified with

body/mind etc. Realisation comes later on. Free will remains always-

at the beginning, in the middle and in the end. Human life is " karma

yoni " ! There is a provision of conversion of " karmas "

into " akarmas " ( Karma yoga) not cessation of karmas. There is

provision of " assuming non doership " (Jnana Yoga) not cessation of

doing. There is provision of surrendering/offerring whatever you do

to God ( Bhakti Yoga- " yatkaroshi " BG 9:26) and not " na-karoshi " -

not doing. " Not doing " is impossible in human birth.

However, " Assumptions " / " Acceptances " of all sorts viz " I am

doer " , " I am not doer " , " I am of God " , " I am of world " etc are

possible. Those assumptions are examples again of FREE WILL

available to Self.

 

Hope you are crystal clear now.

 

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

--------------------------------

 

 

------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

 

Hari Om

 

One can't cease to admire the talent accumulated in this GT Group.

Indeed it is a divine group. How humble are real Satsangis !! One

such humble Satsangi is B Sathyanarainji. In every posting of him,

you will find history, names and references of great souls !! He

invariably remembers realised souls, great characters of past, great

events stated in our Holy Scriptures !.

 

No Sir. You can never be wrong !

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

-------------------------------

 

The following may kindly be added to the response given by Sadak

Vyas N B

 

" After you do your karma say to " move the leaf " , whether

the leaf moves or not is not in your hands. "

+

and very interestingly no sincere and honest effort goes waste.

The leaf moves.

 

For more, one needs to understand " Who am I " by self enquiry......

Best wishes...

 

Sushil Jain

-------------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

This refers to Shashikalaji's observations on my previous post. With

all respects, I may point out that I wish, Shashikalaji, you had

read entire post, instead of stopping after the first sentence as

you say you did.

If asked what does " person " who is supposed to have free-will mean,

what would be the answer? For me, it means a sense of " I-me " rooted

in desires, fears, and likes/dislikes.

This sense of " I-me " becomes so strong in the absence of

questioning, " it " becomes person himself/herself. " It " (insentient)

becomes " me " , so to speak.

This " I " is the superimposed sense on Reality of Being(Is-ness as

Swamiji calls).

All actions, ordinarily, are decided/driven by desires/fears,

likes/dislike(raagas/dwesha), pleasurable/painful experiences of the

past memories. And unfortunately, the person thinks " he " is acting

as if " me-doer " is different than " his " (assumed only) desires or

fears or likes/dislikes! Isn't this strange, come to think of it? Is

there such a thing as Person with free-will, if this is his story?

It is as if he/she is programmed by such conditioning which controls

his/her entire life. Where is the freedom to act in such a

programmed person? Person itself is fictitious entity and so is the

free-will of such a person. (please see this crucial point, that

which acts is conditioning, not a person entity, then it is easy to

see no free-will in conditioning).

 

Even when he pretends to have free-will it is only out of knowns,

sum total of conditioning, karmas, called mind or ignorance-Jeeva or

subtle/causal body. Free-will is limited in scope, whereas

Freedom/Independence we are talking here, is Freedom from

conditioning/karmas, freedom even from demand for freedom. (If Shiva

wants play jeeva, who can stop?)

So even when he decides to act differently in the name of

purushartha to overpower karmas, the actions are still based on

different sets of knowns (this is the extent of his free-will). All

Knowns being limited, it cannot bring freedom that comes from taking

true stand as Atman!

Thus, as I understand, either through self-knowledge, or through

self-surrender or selfless karmas, person(doership-Karta) disappears

into Atman-Consciousness which IS all Impersonal Intelligence(not

personal intellect), divine intimation(conscience) speaks to an

apparant " person " as His instrument to act for greater good.

This is what Arjuna did.

OF course, no body can deny that result of action is what it would

be according to many variables, only one of which is this supposed

person with free-will.

 

In " karmanyevadikaraste " verse of Gita, my understanding is that

person has choice in acting only, not on the result. But the acts

that come from him/her is not necessarily from freedom, unless one

takes stand as Atman! No one can remain without doing karma(Gita)

suggests that " personal " freedom is not given because it may be in

conflict with Divine Will.

 

In another context, I can say that person has just one free-will,

and that is that he/she can choose to remain body-mind identified

individual or be Atman(by knowing/surrendering).

If he/she doesn't exercise this one freedom given to all, then that

is the last freedom he had, and he remains bound essentially!

Thus, as I understand, it is better to act as if God as Will in " me "

is acting through " me " , the instrument. THEN, all actions are going

to be Divine and can never be evil even if they seem like evil

(mahabharat war). Try this perspective, and see what happens!

Namaskar...............Pratap

 

 

JAI SITARAMJIKI. No doubt not even a leaf moves without God's will;

In a billionth of a second the whole universe, each atom, is being

destroyed and remade. When I started writing and at this moment now

I

am not the same person, just like you cannot take a second dip in the

same water of a river; it is always a new water which has come along.

I, each atom of me, has been destroyed and remade. This is how the

universe is working which gives each one of us a chance to inject our

karma, whether good or bad, but then do not forget that we have

accumulated so much of the past karma in our millions of previous

births (we are carrying a heavy load of our past karma) that that

tendency or sanskars motivate us to decide whether we act for the

good

of all, or selfishly for our own good only; and therefore we

ourselves

are the only one responsible for whatever we do or do not do. If you

pray hard enough and do NAAM JAP all the time, and surrender your

will

to God, God will help you to make only the right decisions henceforth

thus changing your destiny for the better.

 

BHAJ RE MANA SITARAM SITARAM SITARAM.

 

Sher Agrawal

 

Dear Sadaks,

Many desires are full filled in practical life and many remain

unfull filled. The root for desire is our own Prarabdha Karma. What

one desires other hates- How? Karma. The thoughts of desires arises

from within designed by Bagavan. It is we feel by Maya that

unfulfilled or fulfilled.

B.Sathyanarayan

 

How is Man independent in performing actions ?

 

It depends on our perception – our beleifs – of what is action and

what is man. Any change in matter-energy patterns perpetuated

through one's body, mind and senses is normally conceived as action.

Generally speaking, an idividual calling himself man believes to be

independent in performing several actions because he knows how he

depends on many for the actualising the same. In other words,

independence is claimed only with the dependence in the background.

 

Any action perceived is a conjugation between an individual and its

environment. The individual, the environment, as well as the medium

of interaction between the two are equal particpants in any

perceived action. I can't call any of these as even partners because

I do not think any of these are independently or collectively

capable of precipitating an action on their own. All the actions

perceived are fragments of images of the monolithic Action Supreme

as sensed by the cognitive cluster of senses the individual is

blessed with.

 

The perception is apparently in individual's hand and hence one

often utters that a man (and a woman, an animal, a plant, and

anything as such) is independent to perceive … incapable of

distingushing a perception from an action, one may try to claim an

indepednece of performing action as well. Truly speaking, even

perception examined carefully reveals the fact that so many elements

of one's system are involved even to perceive the thoughts … let

alone act upon the physical world.

 

Na hi kashchit kshanamapi jaatu tishthatyakarmakrit |

Kaaryate hyavashah karma sarvah prakritijairgunaih ||

 

Nothing in this universe is capable of negating The Action and

transcend the mode of action. Everything is optionless but to follow

the course of action dictated by the individual nature.

 

Bhayadasyaagnistapati bhayaattapati suryah |

Bhayaadindrashch vaayushcha Mrityurdhaavati panchamah ||

 

Everything, let alone perishable beings like a man, even cosmic

forces such as sun, fire, matter, death, and knowledge follow the

locus of action with absolute obedience.

 

Karma bramhodbhavam viddhi bramhaakshara samudbhavam |

Tasmaatsarvagatam bramha nityam yagnye pratishthitam ||

 

The Action is verily rooted in The Absolute being The Invariant as

such. The Absolute is inherent in everything through The Action as

such being the Invariant in all the variance that could be perceived

in this universe.

 

If it all anything is independent only The Action is independent.

Probably, man who has identified one with The Action could also be

independent in performing actions. But the difficulty here is there

is nothing left to act upon in such as state! There is no plurality

of actions in such a unified state!!

 

On the other hand, the notion of independence is stemms out of our

belief in dependence on the elements of life to conduct our own

lives. From spiritual stand point, when every element in this

universe is just participating in the action as per its own nature,

how can anything depend on anything at all? If we examine carefully,

the very notion of dependence becomes a myth. Therefore, the

imagination built upon such a myth – independence – is just an

illusion.

 

Therefore, the statement " a man is independent of performing

actions " does not make sense to me from spiritual perspective

wherein the concepts such as independence, performance, plurality of

action, etc. disperse into the oblivion once the bliefs that support

their legetimacy is rattled with absolute persistence.

 

Respects.

 

Naga Narayana

 

 

PRIOR POSTING

 

Hari Om

 

I think the following principle brought out by Vineetji must be

reconsidered by him for it defies all logics :

 

" that what happened was Paramatma's will, and that which did not

happen was our desire (which was apart from Paramatma's will) .That

is it! " All happennings are His will . Where is question of any

distinction of the type " which did not happen was our desire (which

was apart from His will) " ??? How what does not happen is our

desire? What can happen which is apart from His will ?

 

Translation from Hindi to English has not contributed to this.

 

Please clarify.

 

Principle as grasped by me from Swamiji and Gitaji is-

 

" In every doing we are independent, in any happenning, we are not

independent "

 

That is law. No happenning is capable enough to force a reaction

from us. No doing can be forced.

 

Moreover, to say that even asking the question by Sadhak Ramji

writing the answer by you is due to divine will is a faulty concept.

It snatches away capacity of human being of " karmanye

vaadhikaraste " ! God does not like us to attribute our independence

of doing karmas too to His divine will. How can He? You can't remain

without doing Karma even for a fraction of a second - this means you

are responsible for the same. God is not responsible for the same.

He only gave us independence. He is a disinterested friend. We reap

as we sow ! Even if you are totally " surrendered " soul or even if

you are " liberated " - " in doing " you have complete independence so

long you live in a human body. Just imagine, if some sadhak

stretches this concept a bit further and says " I did this deed ,

because God willed that " . That deed can be any deed - why not?

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

-

 

Dear all,

Bhagawaan has given us the intellect to discriminate what we should

do and what we should desist from doing as being not spiritually

good. He has also allowed His Maaya to have its sway on us to see if

we heed to the intellect or come under the sway of ignorance.

A spiritually oriented man does what is good or Shreyas and desists

from the pleasurable or Preyas. Here is man's independance. Also

allowing us to do what we choose to is Bhagawaan's will.

Jai Shree Krishna!

Prof ( Major ) Ramanujam

 

 

Dear Sadaks,

We know that we are single Advaitham (No you and me) as it

says " Aham Bramasmi " . You are part of Braman and have the

indipencence of thought and action. But you have NO indipendence

over death, birth, place of birth, caste, to whom born, whether in

rich or poor family, the type of Karma (cart puller, car driver,

train driver, house maid, luxurious life, handicapped, beautiful or

ugly, one time popper another face of life rich, rich becoming poor

ETC ETc). For the action and thought one does one is responsible.

Valmiki Rishi was a thief earlier until Sage Nararad told that

robbing other will yield sins that affects only him NOT to his

family members though they are enjoying the gain from theft.

Realization took place and he became Valmiki. Here one can note why

Sage Narad chose this perticular thief to impart knowledge though

there were 100 of thieves. Karma Pala of earlier birth brings Guru

to rescue.

" Karmanye vaadhikaraste, ma phaleshu kadchan " - I feel that this

means one is indipendant of performing action, but NOT indipendant

to decide the fruit of Action. Scripts say that Sri Vishnu is giver

of Karma Pala. Kans could have been killed along with other demons.

Time factor. Sank is the sound of Warning and Chakra is time factor

of Sri Vishnu. Garuda is symbol of speed as Sri Vishnu is sustainer

which is required fast enough to keep life going. Bagavan Shiva

destructor-- Buffelow is time factor (slow and steady the time and

aging takes place without one` s knowledge), small drum on HIS hand

is death knell, thrishulam takes the soul from body. Vibhuti (Sacred

ashes of Bagavan Shiva) is that one becomes ashes after death.

Many do wrong things like murdering, raping, robbing, insulting Etc.

This is because of independence given to human. Animals have no

intellect and they behave as they are. So animals do not do anything

independently (They remain silent even if they are killed and the

animal from that herd does not revenge- Like father got killed son

revenges) That is why animals raise from lower birth to human level.

So I feel that, " HUMAN IS INDEPENDENT OF ACTION BUT NOT INDEPENDENT

OF THE FRUITS OF ACTION " . " Karmanye vaadhikaraste, ma phaleshu

kadchan "

PARDON ME IF I AM WRONG

B.Sathyanarayan

 

 

PRIOR POSTING

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

In English

 

Brother Ramji, Your asking the question, and this written response

is also happening as per Paramatma's Will. By such acceptance, it

will make you contented, that what happened was Paramatma's will,

and that which did not happen was our desire (which was apart from

Paramatma's will) . That is it ! The work is done, and once again

we become engaged in meditating on that Paramatma. Ram Ram Ram

 

Vineet, Sarvottam

 

IN HINDI

Bhaiyyaa Ramji, Aapkaa prashna poochnaa aur yeh utter likhnaa bhi

usee Paramaatmaaki icchaa (sweekruti) ke anusaar ho rahaa hai. Isse

aise sweekaar karnaa aapko santushta karegaa ki jo huaa wah toh thi

Paramaatmaa ki icchaa aur jo kuch bhi nahin huaa wah thi humaari

(Paramaatmaatmaa se alag) icchaa. Bas kaam ban gayaa aur lag gaye

usi Paramaatmaa ke dhyaan mein. Ram Ram Ram.

 

Vineet, Sarvottam

 

-------------------------------

Jai Hanuman

 

Pratap Bhaiyya! Read again your first sentence ! Frankly I did not

read afterwards! There is no question of there being any doubt

whatsoever in a person " not having a free will/independence in

performing an action " ! One always has a free will there !! Come

what may !!!

 

Similarly there is no question or doubt of there " being any kind of

free will or independence in the results of an action " made by a

person - come what may !!

 

Efforts/performance is always in your hands. Results is always

beyond your hands !

 

There are subtle principles Jee - in the above laws , too !! They

appear juxtaposing but in reality they indeed are crystal clear!

 

I can also argue that the results ultimately are chosen/ determined

by the " doer " ! Come on !! That also is equally true - but in long

term and in reality ! How incomprehensible and contradictory that

reality appears ? But still true !! Truth prevails in whatever way

you see that, from whatever angle you perceive that, in whichever

position you are positioned !! Afterall it is truth !

 

Pratap Bhaiyya !! I am also aware of the fact that " karmanusarini

buddhih " ( Intellect changes as per prior deeds) - but Dear Brother,

I also know that " Purushartha " (capacity of humans to do karmas-

free will / independence ) prevails over waves of " sphuranas " (

thoughts arising due to prior deeds- Prarabdha )caused by altered

intellect due to past karmas , Jee !

 

All said and done- " Anhonee hoti nahin, honi hai so hoi " ( What is

not to 'happen' shall not, what is to 'happen' shall ) - at the same

time - in 'doing' you always remain free/independent ! That is law !!

 

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

--------------------------------

 

-------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Hari Om

 

Not a leaf " moves " is the result. Sure! It is in God's hands only.

What is stated is that " not a leaf moves " . It is not stated that " no

effort to move a leaf " is possible by a human being. Question of

free will arises in making efforts - not in results thereof. Hence

you can always make an effort to move the leaf. You are independent

in that. After you do your karma say to " move the leaf " , whether

the leaf moves or not is not in your hands.

 

As simple as that! " Karmanye vaadhikaraste, ma phaleshu kadchan " -

you are entitled to make efforts, you have no role to play in

consequential results !

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

-------------------------------

 

Priy pratap ji

you let or dont let BUT Thy will be done. thats for sure.

Raja Gurdasani

-------------------------------

namasthe all,

 

Everything happens (eacha nd every small and minute action, whatever

it may be), only with the GRACE/POWER/DIVINITY of that SUPREME

divinity.

Regards,

Bharathi

 

 

--------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

 

Man or woman is not independent in performing actions as long as one

takes oneself to be body identified person. This body identification

provides a stage to function in the world-stage for playing one's

roles to serve. Unfortunately this identification provides plateform

on which " individuality " in terms of desires, fears, likes/dislikes

constitute subtle body-mind-stuff, which takes control of his/her

life. This is what he/she calls " I " or " me " , and thus 'mineness " is

born. ( " Mineness " is born only after " me " is born first).

 

When one such a one acts, it is only this " me " , disguised as

desires/fears really act, and always attempts to protect " imagined

him/her " or what is perceived to be of his/hers.

 

So there is no independent actions out of such a one, always reacting

to situations in self-defense not knowing his true SELF-Atman-true

independence to act.

 

When one acquires the knowledge of one's true Self, through whatever

means prescribed in Gita or other Scriptures, one is aware of " me " in

its true colors just as it arises and stays away from acting to

protect it. There is a total freedom to act out of That which we

truly

are, Love, Compassion ourselves in the abscense of " me " !

 

Actions are then seen as coming from Totality of Being and not

personal.

 

Such a one can truly say " Let Thy Will be done " as Jesus said. When a

leaf moves, it is God's will through nature, and when we act, it is

God as our Will acts, whatever be the act!

 

Namaskar........

 

Pratap Bhatt

 

What we are today is the result of our past karmas. What we will

become in our next birth will be the result of our present karmas.

The

goal of every soul is to become one with God ultimately, that is for

the atma to become one with Parmatma. This is called attaining moksh

or liberation from the endless and painful cycle of birth and death.

Since everything in this world is an illusion, it is upto us to first

connect with our soul through meditation and through good karmas,

then

to attain moksh from 8.4 million births. So we do have a choice. Not

everything is pre-ordained.

 

Hari Shanker Deo

 

 

Dear Sadhaks,

It is true that nothing moves without HIS will. But Bhagavan has

created and

designed the whole creation that nothing goes missing without HIS

knowledge is

the meaning. This is very large subject to go in detail. But an

example can be

given. Human has 5 pranas, governed by 5 boothas and 5 layers Auras

(which can

be photographed by Kerlion Camara). So any smallest Thought or

action or both

are independent to humans. Every action or thought is recorded by

the one`s own

Aura resulting in cause and effect. The action done by body is

called Kayaka

Karma. Finding mistake on anything is also wrong Karma as one

forgets the Eswara

Sarvaboothanam. The thought is called Maanisha Karma. So when one

does good or

bad it is automatically rewarded. This means the actions does not go

unrewarded.

This again means that Bhagavan is under knowledge of all. So it

means that

nothing moves without HIS knowledge. One has to understand that to

come to Human

form from lower births is with HIS grace. Human is given

independence to do

Karmas. This independence (By way of intellect) to Human is given by

Bhagavan to

elevate to Divinity

B.Sathyanarayan

 

-

 

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Narayana Narayana

 

In English

 

It is said that not a leaf can move without Bhagwaan's will

(wishes), then how is man independent in performing actions?

 

Ramchandra

 

In Hindi

Bhagwan ki marji ke bina pataa bhi nahin hiltaa, phir manushya karam

karne mein kaise swatantra hai?

 

Ramchandra

 

 

 

NEW POSTING

 

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

I also want to offer my appreciation for B. Sathyanarainji for

bringing timely messages of all Great Realized Sages.

One such sage is Ramana Maharshi, spiritual giant! His Quote is

relevant in this context of independence/free-will satsang!

" There is neither creation, nor destruction, Neither Destiny, nor

Free-will; Neither path, nor acheivement; This is the final truth! "

And is consistent with Gita's teaching between the lines!

Namaskar...........Pratap Bhatt

--

Independent will action etc is more wishful thinking, your actions

are governed by you brain biochemistry and that by your genes.

independence in action is something which has to be gained through

realisation of the self. it is a right to be earned as buddhahood,

anyway think about it as a model.

Ravi Bakhsi

 

 

Hari Om

 

Very right you are Dear Mike .You are not only right but accurate

and 'divine' too ! I will tell you how! I doubt if you had with you

Swamiji's Sadhak Sanjeevani when you wrote your last note. You used

the words 'atomic particles' , 'supreme intelligence' and 'divine

will' while reflecting upon BG 10:42! Even Swamiji in his purport to

the same verse explained using the same theme ! That is satsanga.

That is wave length to which one gets tuned in Satsanga ! That is

how 'divine' pervades the universe.

 

Swamiji said in His purport that in one part/fragment/particle of

God entire universe is held. Inspite of there being uncountable and

endless universes existing in His that small particle still that is

not full, there is still space for endless more universes. Just as-

a very small part of nature is our 'intelligence' , but inspite of

there being knowledge of many languages, syllables, arts etc we

can't say that there is no space left now more knowledge, more

languages, more syllables etc in the 'intelligence'. There is always

space left in the intellect for more knowledge. When a small part of

nature can be so limitless and still spacious, then how limitless

shall be the 'supreme divine intelligence' , the small particle of

God Himself who is 'beyond' nature, supreme, transcendental,

endless, limitless, and bottomless Himself. There in that 'supreme

divine intelligence' , space for more universes is specially vacant.

That fragment is still empty.

 

Note also Brother that till BG 10:41, Paramatma was answering

Arjuna's specific questions. Here in 18:42, Krishna Himself of His

own accord and. ' divine will ' is telling Arjuna that once you

look at Me , nothing will remain to be looked at. Why Arjuna should

any more be interested in knowing more 'vibhutis' of Him? Here

Krishna is giving the 'essence/juice/nectar " of an answer to

Arjuna's question- after giving detailed reply to his question upto

18:41 !

 

By the way the following is translation of BG 18:42 in Swamiji's

Sadhak Sanjeevani treatise on BG:

 

Link: Having answered Arjuna's question, in the next verse, the Lord

Himself reveals an important fact.

 

" Or what need is there, for you O Arjuna, of detailed knowledge? I

stand supporting the entire universe, with a single fragment, of

Myself "

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

 

 

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

I respect views expressed here on " my " (?) observations on Free-

will/Independence/Freedom. As I take it, this satsang is about

sharing our understanding by putting it on the table what we have

understood, to be examined by us all. I don't insist on saying this

is the only truth! Or we may be saying same thing in our different

words!

As I see, Understanding/Truth alone acts, not an individual!

I had similar observations about person having free-will,

independence, choice.

I was led to think deeply what lies behind those words we use

everyday.

As a limited body-mind identified person, we have limited free-will,

which is different than Freedom I(?) am referring to here. Freedom

is Total freedom from bondage of a false sense of " me " , the person.

Limited free-will is not a free-will as I understand. To be able to

do whatever we like is not a freedom we are talking about here, I

suppose. Choices may suggest confusion versus clarity. Clarity comes

from Totality! Some can say limited free-will is still free-will, I

don't.

Purpose here is to see free-will of a person versus Total Freedom

when limitations vanish!

" Person " is perceived object and is limited as such, while " we " are

All Perceiving Consciousness, Impersonal!

Sure, there is first and foremost, and always available free-will or

freedom to Realize we are not such a limited person afterall! If not

exercised, obviously we continue to live from limitations of pairs

of opposites, makeup of " a person " . As a matter of fact, we are

never ever " bound " ! If we are not free, we remain as if programmed

entity, always choosing what we think is good for " us " regardless of

so called " others " .

We are not doomed to remain as such as interpreted by some. To see

the falsehood and step out of such a " person(limitations) " to take

true stand as Atman is the purpose of Human life.

IF Vasudevah Sarvam is true, then we cannot be Vasudeva as

individual person with limited free-will is what I meant to share.

Swamiji says " All are ONE, and ONE is all " . Even when I act as

seemingly individual, only God or total intelligence acts! I have to

knowingly act as such!

We only have right over actions, but independence in acting is

limited, if remain limited!

To me, as Jesus says, Will is always God's Will, never " mine " ,

because there is no " I " , the individual except in ignorance, or

dream from which we need to wake up!

Individual jeeva has no reality apart from Ishwara! If Jeeva is

enlightened, Jeevahood is merged in Ishwara. In Yagna of True

knowledge, Devotion, and Selfless karmas, individuality is the

sacred offering!

Namaskar............Pratap Bhatt

 

 

 

-------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

-Shree Hari-

 

Vyasji I am so glad that you mentioned B Sathyanarainji, I always

read his comments to the best of my abilities, and realise there is

wise council in his revelations. Even though we may be at the oposite

ends of the divine rainbow, we are linked by this sacred Satsang.

Sathyanarainji you have my greatest respect, I bow to you.

 

Paramatma is; in all down to the smallest sub atomic particle,(and

beyond that), in 'The Supreme', is, as it were the 'Supreme

Intelligence', the 'Divine Will' holds all in existence.

If a leaf trembles in the wind, it is free to do so, if a person does

good or bad he/she is free to do so,(not withstanding Karma).

Remember good, bad, are opposites that exist in the illusion of

duality.

 

In Gitaji 10:

Of what value is it for you

To know all this, O Arjuna?

I ever support this whole world

By just one portion of Myself. (42)

 

To me B.G. 10 as a whole is worth a read I believe when dealing with

this subject.

 

With Respect and Divine Love,

 

Mike Keenor

-------------------------------

 

Jai Shri Krishna,

 

Pratapji may please note that ONLY in human life a person has

privilege of " Free will " . Human life is adored by Scriptures because

of that only. Use your " conscience " , change your path ! If human

life is " programmed " then what makes this life superior to animals

or Devatas? Is God that cruel ? God or Shiva referred by you did not

make the players in this Lila - dependent/helpless ! In order

to " play " , a " player " must have independence!

 

You have free will / independence always, at all times in human

life, upto the last breath. Human life is the greatest form of life-

undoubtedly ! If in this life, one presumes that one

is " programmed " - then in which life he will get " unprogrammed " ?

 

Narayan Narayan

Rajendra J Bohra

 

 

 

Jai Hanuman

 

Ok Pratap Bhaiyya ! Now I have read it fully Jee ! Twice, Jee !! But

what is the theme ? Why did you lose independence? Why did you get

bound? Why other person is not as accurately and precisely bound by

the same " programmed action " ? Who fell into the well of desires,

me/mine notion? How? Exercise of " free will " , misutilisation

thereof !!

 

I quote you only here Pratapji :

 

" All actions, ordinarily, are decided/driven by desires/fears,

likes/dislike(raagas/dwesha), pleasurable/painful experiences of the

past memories. "

 

Now tell me - desires/fears/likes/dislikes of whom? Could you not

have chosen to be otherwise? Yes !! Can't you even today choose not

to be swayed by them? Yes !!

 

You have free will even when you are completely in " bondage " state.

Else how a sinner most person like Valmiki/Angulimaal became

Dharmatma? What is sanctity of Gita 9:31? Free will !! Correct

choice !! That choice is action !!

 

Let us Read again what you wrote:

 

" And unfortunately, the person thinks " he " is acting

as if " me-doer " is different than " his " (assumed only) desires or

fears or likes/dislikes! Isn't this strange, come to think of it? Is

there such a thing as Person with free-will, if this is his story? "

 

Is thinking or not thinking that " me/doer " is different or same or

whatever, not arising out of " free will " ? Do not you have

choice/option there ?? Tell me categorically what prevents you from

applying conscience and changing your perception? Free will is still

there with you! Bondage lies in mind only. Change the mind ! Who

prevents?

 

There after you stated :

 

" It is as if he/she is programmed by such conditioning which controls

his/her entire life. Where is the freedom to act in such a

programmed person? Person itself is fictitious entity and so is the

free-will of such a person.

 

Funny argument, isn't it- Pratap Bhaiyya ? Why did he fall into that

shape at first place? Misutilisation of free will ! Has he/she

referred by you become optionless now? No ! No !! If he/she is

programmed, doesn't that mean he/she can't realise God, or change

for better? Gone for ever ! Worse than even an animal ! No, it can't

be so ! Rather it is certainly not so !!

 

Is every human being is exactly what is described here ? No! No !!

Difference in degree/intensity/circumstances/positioning/ etc

between two individuals is due to what ? Exercise of that free

will !!

 

Your statements convert great human birth into a slave birth,

programmed by God as punishment !! Wrong! Wrong !

 

You went on to state :

 

In another context, I can say that person has just one free-will,

and that is that he/she can choose to remain body-mind identified

individual or be Atman(by knowing/surrendering).

If he/she doesn't exercise this one freedom given to all, then that

is the last freedom he had, and he remains bound essentially!

 

So in stroke, you concluded that " this one is the last freedom he

had and he remains bound essentially " !! Very Good Jee ! Now where

is need for Saints and Sages/Gitaji? Where is any scope left for

him/her to make amends? Free will destroyed for ever!! He/she is

gone for ever, Jee !! Isn't it? Now there are no options

available !! Human birth got wasted long back! Now cry and live as a

puppet! Animals then become far better than humans !!

 

Isn't that the conclusion? No I don't agree with you, once again ,

Pratap Bhaiyya ! You have " free will " alive in you at all times, in

all places, in all circumstances, so long as you are in human

body !! Even in most " bondaged state " - you have " free will " in you-

ready for use !! You can make amends anytime during the course of

human life ! Come On , Pratap Bhaiyya !! Human birth is sought even

by Demi Gods! Why ? Free Will available at all times, Jee ! Isn't

it ??

 

Please also note Pratap Bhaiyya- Both Karma Yoga and Jnana Yoga are

only practiced by a human being by remaining identified with

body/mind etc. Realisation comes later on. Free will remains always-

at the beginning, in the middle and in the end. Human life is " karma

yoni " ! There is a provision of conversion of " karmas "

into " akarmas " ( Karma yoga) not cessation of karmas. There is

provision of " assuming non doership " (Jnana Yoga) not cessation of

doing. There is provision of surrendering/offerring whatever you do

to God ( Bhakti Yoga- " yatkaroshi " BG 9:26) and not " na-karoshi " -

not doing. " Not doing " is impossible in human birth.

However, " Assumptions " / " Acceptances " of all sorts viz " I am

doer " , " I am not doer " , " I am of God " , " I am of world " etc are

possible. Those assumptions are examples again of FREE WILL

available to Self.

 

Hope you are crystal clear now.

 

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

--------------------------------

 

 

------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

 

Hari Om

 

One can't cease to admire the talent accumulated in this GT Group.

Indeed it is a divine group. How humble are real Satsangis !! One

such humble Satsangi is B Sathyanarainji. In every posting of him,

you will find history, names and references of great souls !! He

invariably remembers realised souls, great characters of past, great

events stated in our Holy Scriptures !.

 

No Sir. You can never be wrong !

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

-------------------------------

 

The following may kindly be added to the response given by Sadak

Vyas N B

 

" After you do your karma say to " move the leaf " , whether

the leaf moves or not is not in your hands. "

+

and very interestingly no sincere and honest effort goes waste.

The leaf moves.

 

For more, one needs to understand " Who am I " by self enquiry......

Best wishes...

 

Sushil Jain

-------------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

This refers to Shashikalaji's observations on my previous post. With

all respects, I may point out that I wish, Shashikalaji, you had

read entire post, instead of stopping after the first sentence as

you say you did.

If asked what does " person " who is supposed to have free-will mean,

what would be the answer? For me, it means a sense of " I-me " rooted

in desires, fears, and likes/dislikes.

This sense of " I-me " becomes so strong in the absence of

questioning, " it " becomes person himself/herself. " It " (insentient)

becomes " me " , so to speak.

This " I " is the superimposed sense on Reality of Being(Is-ness as

Swamiji calls).

All actions, ordinarily, are decided/driven by desires/fears,

likes/dislike(raagas/dwesha), pleasurable/painful experiences of the

past memories. And unfortunately, the person thinks " he " is acting

as if " me-doer " is different than " his " (assumed only) desires or

fears or likes/dislikes! Isn't this strange, come to think of it? Is

there such a thing as Person with free-will, if this is his story?

It is as if he/she is programmed by such conditioning which controls

his/her entire life. Where is the freedom to act in such a

programmed person? Person itself is fictitious entity and so is the

free-will of such a person. (please see this crucial point, that

which acts is conditioning, not a person entity, then it is easy to

see no free-will in conditioning).

 

Even when he pretends to have free-will it is only out of knowns,

sum total of conditioning, karmas, called mind or ignorance-Jeeva or

subtle/causal body. Free-will is limited in scope, whereas

Freedom/Independence we are talking here, is Freedom from

conditioning/karmas, freedom even from demand for freedom. (If Shiva

wants play jeeva, who can stop?)

So even when he decides to act differently in the name of

purushartha to overpower karmas, the actions are still based on

different sets of knowns (this is the extent of his free-will). All

Knowns being limited, it cannot bring freedom that comes from taking

true stand as Atman!

Thus, as I understand, either through self-knowledge, or through

self-surrender or selfless karmas, person(doership-Karta) disappears

into Atman-Consciousness which IS all Impersonal Intelligence(not

personal intellect), divine intimation(conscience) speaks to an

apparant " person " as His instrument to act for greater good.

This is what Arjuna did.

OF course, no body can deny that result of action is what it would

be according to many variables, only one of which is this supposed

person with free-will.

 

In " karmanyevadikaraste " verse of Gita, my understanding is that

person has choice in acting only, not on the result. But the acts

that come from him/her is not necessarily from freedom, unless one

takes stand as Atman! No one can remain without doing karma(Gita)

suggests that " personal " freedom is not given because it may be in

conflict with Divine Will.

 

In another context, I can say that person has just one free-will,

and that is that he/she can choose to remain body-mind identified

individual or be Atman(by knowing/surrendering).

If he/she doesn't exercise this one freedom given to all, then that

is the last freedom he had, and he remains bound essentially!

Thus, as I understand, it is better to act as if God as Will in " me "

is acting through " me " , the instrument. THEN, all actions are going

to be Divine and can never be evil even if they seem like evil

(mahabharat war). Try this perspective, and see what happens!

Namaskar...............Pratap

 

 

JAI SITARAMJIKI. No doubt not even a leaf moves without God's will;

In a billionth of a second the whole universe, each atom, is being

destroyed and remade. When I started writing and at this moment now

I

am not the same person, just like you cannot take a second dip in the

same water of a river; it is always a new water which has come along.

I, each atom of me, has been destroyed and remade. This is how the

universe is working which gives each one of us a chance to inject our

karma, whether good or bad, but then do not forget that we have

accumulated so much of the past karma in our millions of previous

births (we are carrying a heavy load of our past karma) that that

tendency or sanskars motivate us to decide whether we act for the

good

of all, or selfishly for our own good only; and therefore we

ourselves

are the only one responsible for whatever we do or do not do. If you

pray hard enough and do NAAM JAP all the time, and surrender your

will

to God, God will help you to make only the right decisions henceforth

thus changing your destiny for the better.

 

BHAJ RE MANA SITARAM SITARAM SITARAM.

 

Sher Agrawal

 

Dear Sadaks,

Many desires are full filled in practical life and many remain

unfull filled. The root for desire is our own Prarabdha Karma. What

one desires other hates- How? Karma. The thoughts of desires arises

from within designed by Bagavan. It is we feel by Maya that

unfulfilled or fulfilled.

B.Sathyanarayan

 

How is Man independent in performing actions ?

 

It depends on our perception – our beleifs – of what is action and

what is man. Any change in matter-energy patterns perpetuated

through one's body, mind and senses is normally conceived as action.

Generally speaking, an idividual calling himself man believes to be

independent in performing several actions because he knows how he

depends on many for the actualising the same. In other words,

independence is claimed only with the dependence in the background.

 

Any action perceived is a conjugation between an individual and its

environment. The individual, the environment, as well as the medium

of interaction between the two are equal particpants in any

perceived action. I can't call any of these as even partners because

I do not think any of these are independently or collectively

capable of precipitating an action on their own. All the actions

perceived are fragments of images of the monolithic Action Supreme

as sensed by the cognitive cluster of senses the individual is

blessed with.

 

The perception is apparently in individual's hand and hence one

often utters that a man (and a woman, an animal, a plant, and

anything as such) is independent to perceive … incapable of

distingushing a perception from an action, one may try to claim an

indepednece of performing action as well. Truly speaking, even

perception examined carefully reveals the fact that so many elements

of one's system are involved even to perceive the thoughts … let

alone act upon the physical world.

 

Na hi kashchit kshanamapi jaatu tishthatyakarmakrit |

Kaaryate hyavashah karma sarvah prakritijairgunaih ||

 

Nothing in this universe is capable of negating The Action and

transcend the mode of action. Everything is optionless but to follow

the course of action dictated by the individual nature.

 

Bhayadasyaagnistapati bhayaattapati suryah |

Bhayaadindrashch vaayushcha Mrityurdhaavati panchamah ||

 

Everything, let alone perishable beings like a man, even cosmic

forces such as sun, fire, matter, death, and knowledge follow the

locus of action with absolute obedience.

 

Karma bramhodbhavam viddhi bramhaakshara samudbhavam |

Tasmaatsarvagatam bramha nityam yagnye pratishthitam ||

 

The Action is verily rooted in The Absolute being The Invariant as

such. The Absolute is inherent in everything through The Action as

such being the Invariant in all the variance that could be perceived

in this universe.

 

If it all anything is independent only The Action is independent.

Probably, man who has identified one with The Action could also be

independent in performing actions. But the difficulty here is there

is nothing left to act upon in such as state! There is no plurality

of actions in such a unified state!!

 

On the other hand, the notion of independence is stemms out of our

belief in dependence on the elements of life to conduct our own

lives. From spiritual stand point, when every element in this

universe is just participating in the action as per its own nature,

how can anything depend on anything at all? If we examine carefully,

the very notion of dependence becomes a myth. Therefore, the

imagination built upon such a myth – independence – is just an

illusion.

 

Therefore, the statement " a man is independent of performing

actions " does not make sense to me from spiritual perspective

wherein the concepts such as independence, performance, plurality of

action, etc. disperse into the oblivion once the bliefs that support

their legetimacy is rattled with absolute persistence.

 

Respects.

 

Naga Narayana

 

 

PRIOR POSTING

 

Hari Om

 

I think the following principle brought out by Vineetji must be

reconsidered by him for it defies all logics :

 

" that what happened was Paramatma's will, and that which did not

happen was our desire (which was apart from Paramatma's will) .That

is it! " All happennings are His will . Where is question of any

distinction of the type " which did not happen was our desire (which

was apart from His will) " ??? How what does not happen is our

desire? What can happen which is apart from His will ?

 

Translation from Hindi to English has not contributed to this.

 

Please clarify.

 

Principle as grasped by me from Swamiji and Gitaji is-

 

" In every doing we are independent, in any happenning, we are not

independent "

 

That is law. No happenning is capable enough to force a reaction

from us. No doing can be forced.

 

Moreover, to say that even asking the question by Sadhak Ramji

writing the answer by you is due to divine will is a faulty concept.

It snatches away capacity of human being of " karmanye

vaadhikaraste " ! God does not like us to attribute our independence

of doing karmas too to His divine will. How can He? You can't remain

without doing Karma even for a fraction of a second - this means you

are responsible for the same. God is not responsible for the same.

He only gave us independence. He is a disinterested friend. We reap

as we sow ! Even if you are totally " surrendered " soul or even if

you are " liberated " - " in doing " you have complete independence so

long you live in a human body. Just imagine, if some sadhak

stretches this concept a bit further and says " I did this deed ,

because God willed that " . That deed can be any deed - why not?

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

-

 

Dear all,

Bhagawaan has given us the intellect to discriminate what we should

do and what we should desist from doing as being not spiritually

good. He has also allowed His Maaya to have its sway on us to see if

we heed to the intellect or come under the sway of ignorance.

A spiritually oriented man does what is good or Shreyas and desists

from the pleasurable or Preyas. Here is man's independance. Also

allowing us to do what we choose to is Bhagawaan's will.

Jai Shree Krishna!

Prof ( Major ) Ramanujam

 

 

Dear Sadaks,

We know that we are single Advaitham (No you and me) as it

says " Aham Bramasmi " . You are part of Braman and have the

indipencence of thought and action. But you have NO indipendence

over death, birth, place of birth, caste, to whom born, whether in

rich or poor family, the type of Karma (cart puller, car driver,

train driver, house maid, luxurious life, handicapped, beautiful or

ugly, one time popper another face of life rich, rich becoming poor

ETC ETc). For the action and thought one does one is responsible.

Valmiki Rishi was a thief earlier until Sage Nararad told that

robbing other will yield sins that affects only him NOT to his

family members though they are enjoying the gain from theft.

Realization took place and he became Valmiki. Here one can note why

Sage Narad chose this perticular thief to impart knowledge though

there were 100 of thieves. Karma Pala of earlier birth brings Guru

to rescue.

" Karmanye vaadhikaraste, ma phaleshu kadchan " - I feel that this

means one is indipendant of performing action, but NOT indipendant

to decide the fruit of Action. Scripts say that Sri Vishnu is giver

of Karma Pala. Kans could have been killed along with other demons.

Time factor. Sank is the sound of Warning and Chakra is time factor

of Sri Vishnu. Garuda is symbol of speed as Sri Vishnu is sustainer

which is required fast enough to keep life going. Bagavan Shiva

destructor-- Buffelow is time factor (slow and steady the time and

aging takes place without one` s knowledge), small drum on HIS hand

is death knell, thrishulam takes the soul from body. Vibhuti (Sacred

ashes of Bagavan Shiva) is that one becomes ashes after death.

Many do wrong things like murdering, raping, robbing, insulting Etc.

This is because of independence given to human. Animals have no

intellect and they behave as they are. So animals do not do anything

independently (They remain silent even if they are killed and the

animal from that herd does not revenge- Like father got killed son

revenges) That is why animals raise from lower birth to human level.

So I feel that, " HUMAN IS INDEPENDENT OF ACTION BUT NOT INDEPENDENT

OF THE FRUITS OF ACTION " . " Karmanye vaadhikaraste, ma phaleshu

kadchan "

PARDON ME IF I AM WRONG

B.Sathyanarayan

 

 

PRIOR POSTING

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

In English

 

Brother Ramji, Your asking the question, and this written response

is also happening as per Paramatma's Will. By such acceptance, it

will make you contented, that what happened was Paramatma's will,

and that which did not happen was our desire (which was apart from

Paramatma's will) . That is it ! The work is done, and once again

we become engaged in meditating on that Paramatma. Ram Ram Ram

 

Vineet, Sarvottam

 

IN HINDI

Bhaiyyaa Ramji, Aapkaa prashna poochnaa aur yeh utter likhnaa bhi

usee Paramaatmaaki icchaa (sweekruti) ke anusaar ho rahaa hai. Isse

aise sweekaar karnaa aapko santushta karegaa ki jo huaa wah toh thi

Paramaatmaa ki icchaa aur jo kuch bhi nahin huaa wah thi humaari

(Paramaatmaatmaa se alag) icchaa. Bas kaam ban gayaa aur lag gaye

usi Paramaatmaa ke dhyaan mein. Ram Ram Ram.

 

Vineet, Sarvottam

 

-------------------------------

Jai Hanuman

 

Pratap Bhaiyya! Read again your first sentence ! Frankly I did not

read afterwards! There is no question of there being any doubt

whatsoever in a person " not having a free will/independence in

performing an action " ! One always has a free will there !! Come

what may !!!

 

Similarly there is no question or doubt of there " being any kind of

free will or independence in the results of an action " made by a

person - come what may !!

 

Efforts/performance is always in your hands. Results is always

beyond your hands !

 

There are subtle principles Jee - in the above laws , too !! They

appear juxtaposing but in reality they indeed are crystal clear!

 

I can also argue that the results ultimately are chosen/ determined

by the " doer " ! Come on !! That also is equally true - but in long

term and in reality ! How incomprehensible and contradictory that

reality appears ? But still true !! Truth prevails in whatever way

you see that, from whatever angle you perceive that, in whichever

position you are positioned !! Afterall it is truth !

 

Pratap Bhaiyya !! I am also aware of the fact that " karmanusarini

buddhih " ( Intellect changes as per prior deeds) - but Dear Brother,

I also know that " Purushartha " (capacity of humans to do karmas-

free will / independence ) prevails over waves of " sphuranas " (

thoughts arising due to prior deeds- Prarabdha )caused by altered

intellect due to past karmas , Jee !

 

All said and done- " Anhonee hoti nahin, honi hai so hoi " ( What is

not to 'happen' shall not, what is to 'happen' shall ) - at the same

time - in 'doing' you always remain free/independent ! That is law !!

 

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

--------------------------------

 

-------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Hari Om

 

Not a leaf " moves " is the result. Sure! It is in God's hands only.

What is stated is that " not a leaf moves " . It is not stated that " no

effort to move a leaf " is possible by a human being. Question of

free will arises in making efforts - not in results thereof. Hence

you can always make an effort to move the leaf. You are independent

in that. After you do your karma say to " move the leaf " , whether

the leaf moves or not is not in your hands.

 

As simple as that! " Karmanye vaadhikaraste, ma phaleshu kadchan " -

you are entitled to make efforts, you have no role to play in

consequential results !

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

-------------------------------

 

Priy pratap ji

you let or dont let BUT Thy will be done. thats for sure.

Raja Gurdasani

-------------------------------

namasthe all,

 

Everything happens (eacha nd every small and minute action, whatever

it may be), only with the GRACE/POWER/DIVINITY of that SUPREME

divinity.

Regards,

Bharathi

 

 

--------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

 

Man or woman is not independent in performing actions as long as one

takes oneself to be body identified person. This body identification

provides a stage to function in the world-stage for playing one's

roles to serve. Unfortunately this identification provides plateform

on which " individuality " in terms of desires, fears, likes/dislikes

constitute subtle body-mind-stuff, which takes control of his/her

life. This is what he/she calls " I " or " me " , and thus 'mineness " is

born. ( " Mineness " is born only after " me " is born first).

 

When one such a one acts, it is only this " me " , disguised as

desires/fears really act, and always attempts to protect " imagined

him/her " or what is perceived to be of his/hers.

 

So there is no independent actions out of such a one, always reacting

to situations in self-defense not knowing his true SELF-Atman-true

independence to act.

 

When one acquires the knowledge of one's true Self, through whatever

means prescribed in Gita or other Scriptures, one is aware of " me " in

its true colors just as it arises and stays away from acting to

protect it. There is a total freedom to act out of That which we

truly

are, Love, Compassion ourselves in the abscense of " me " !

 

Actions are then seen as coming from Totality of Being and not

personal.

 

Such a one can truly say " Let Thy Will be done " as Jesus said. When a

leaf moves, it is God's will through nature, and when we act, it is

God as our Will acts, whatever be the act!

 

Namaskar........

 

Pratap Bhatt

 

What we are today is the result of our past karmas. What we will

become in our next birth will be the result of our present karmas.

The

goal of every soul is to become one with God ultimately, that is for

the atma to become one with Parmatma. This is called attaining moksh

or liberation from the endless and painful cycle of birth and death.

Since everything in this world is an illusion, it is upto us to first

connect with our soul through meditation and through good karmas,

then

to attain moksh from 8.4 million births. So we do have a choice. Not

everything is pre-ordained.

 

Hari Shanker Deo

 

 

Dear Sadhaks,

It is true that nothing moves without HIS will. But Bhagavan has

created and

designed the whole creation that nothing goes missing without HIS

knowledge is

the meaning. This is very large subject to go in detail. But an

example can be

given. Human has 5 pranas, governed by 5 boothas and 5 layers Auras

(which can

be photographed by Kerlion Camara). So any smallest Thought or

action or both

are independent to humans. Every action or thought is recorded by

the one`s own

Aura resulting in cause and effect. The action done by body is

called Kayaka

Karma. Finding mistake on anything is also wrong Karma as one

forgets the Eswara

Sarvaboothanam. The thought is called Maanisha Karma. So when one

does good or

bad it is automatically rewarded. This means the actions does not go

unrewarded.

This again means that Bhagavan is under knowledge of all. So it

means that

nothing moves without HIS knowledge. One has to understand that to

come to Human

form from lower births is with HIS grace. Human is given

independence to do

Karmas. This independence (By way of intellect) to Human is given by

Bhagavan to

elevate to Divinity

B.Sathyanarayan

 

-

 

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Narayana Narayana

 

In English

 

It is said that not a leaf can move without Bhagwaan's will

(wishes), then how is man independent in performing actions?

 

Ramchandra

 

In Hindi

Bhagwan ki marji ke bina pataa bhi nahin hiltaa, phir manushya karam

karne mein kaise swatantra hai?

 

Ramchandra

 

 

 

NEW POSTING

 

Man himself is an action, his whole body/mind is action only. How

then is it possible in a universe that is One unbroken consciousness

for an apparent part to be other than interdependant?

IT IS NOT!

Man has no free will, all his actions are done by the Whole. Once it

is seen (by no-one) that there is no inner being within the form,

nobody, then all actions are seen to be just ripples arising from

the stillness of Being.

Your very question is an action of the Whole as is this reply for

there is only One.

In Love Avasa

(Adrien Meyer)

--------------------------------

You.

 

The manifestation that is called Life is an unavoidable experience

once the birth of the form has taken place. This experience in itself

is neither good nor bad, it is simply experience. Within this

experience there arises the idea that there is an experiencer of this

and the judgement of events gets then categorised as negative and

positive.

 

What is witnessing all of the experiences is something, which has no

something-ness about it, that is neutral. It is out of this

neutrality that the play of Life is manifesting. This neutrality is

witness to what takes place, including the arising of judgment, to

this one all is simply arising.

 

This one is all that there actually is, the One manifesting as the

apparent many. Right now in this very moment and in every moment

what is witnessing the play of life and all the reactions and

responses to it is this neutrality that is the source of all that

appears. It is this that is experiencing its own creation right now

as the one that you imagine yourself to be, a separate individual

being.

You are not what you imagine yourself to be, what you actually are

can never be put into the framework of the imagination for you have

no image, you are void. What you are is what IS when the activity of

the mind ceases to draw images upon what you are. You are not a

thing, you are the absence of thing-ness, you are no-thing-ness.

This that you actually are is also what all is. All form is the

manifestation of this no-thing-ness and through this manifestation

this no-thing-ness experiences Life. This is the Truth of you, this

is what is actually factually true. You are not an object of time as

you have been supposing but the subject of all objectivity.

Right now this is true of you, it has and is and always will be true

of you for Truth never changes. You are the Source itself manifesting

as all that is and experiencing your manifestation.

This cannot be attained because it is what you already are.

This is not in a becoming process for it is always utterly complete.

This cannot be reached for it is not elsewhere, neither in time nor

in space.

This cannot be experienced for as this you are the subject of all

experiences, a non-experience in yourself.

There is therefore nothing that needs to be done to get to this, it

is simply what IS. It is all that IS.

 

Right now this is the fact of what you are and whether the seeing of

this is happening or not does not in any way change the fact of what

you are.

 

The body is your creation, right now, the arising of the thoughts and

feeling that make up the play of the mind are your creation, right

now, and the manifestation of what appears to be a world 'out there'

is the reflection of this, right now.

 

All that is appearing is appearing within this presence that knows of

its appearance, this presence is what you are and as this you are

unborn, therefore undying, the eternal itself.

You go nowhere for you are the now of here, you are being, simply

Being.

 

Being this with you always, Love Avasa.

(Adrien Meyer)

 

-------------------------------

Jai Hanuman

 

I would not have given my views had I too perceived the discussion

purpose to be below as perceived by some :

 

" Purpose here is to see free-will of a person versus Total Freedom

when limitations vanish! "

 

No ! As I understood the question of Ramji (so did the questioner

himself ) - there the purpose is free will/independence of karma and

control of a human being over the same vis a vis the results meted

out by 'divine will' to him !

 

Free will has nothing to do with 'liberation' or 'freedom'

or 'emancipation'. Even liberated souls are free to do karmas and

Gita suggests karma for them. Even God does karma and so does a

bonded soul. In doing karma/efforts all human beings have free will

irrespective of their present status . In results only 'divine

will' operates irrespective of their present status !

 

Vasudevah Sarvam referred by some is a different principle

altogether. Consider the below quote made by some :

 

IF Vasudevah Sarvam is true, then we cannot be Vasudeva as

individual person with limited free-will is what I meant to share.

 

Again I must disagree with above statement Jee ! Whether you

are " individual person with limited free will " or you are an

otherwise person or you are a 'person' in whatever way you perceive

that, whether you are 'programmed' or otherwise - Vasudevah Sarvam

is still true irrespective of the above or any perceivable

distinctions of any sort. The very concept of Vasudevah Sarvam is

that " He is real as well as unreal " - 'sadsachaham Arjun " (BG 9:19).

Nothing escapes that. No distinctions or divisions impact

that ! " Sarvam " means " sarvam " !! No state however gross or subtle

it may be, however real or unreal it may be, however disllusioned or

clear it may be, however liberated or bound it may be- no state can

ever be beyond " Vasudevah " ! In any case how that state is reached

by a human, is certainly beyond the scope of this question.

 

If following statement is true then what I have stated herein above

and before is also true.

 

" Individual jeeva has no reality apart from Ishwara! "

 

Sure Truth prevails and it prevails as under :

 

Since Ishwara has free will hence Jeeva being fragment of Him, must

always have the same. If one goes deeper then he finds out that in

long run and in reality, in results ( " effect " ) too you have freedom,

because you had freedom in karma ( " cause " ). You choose the results

invariably when you choose to act. This is really deep dive. God

metes out " results' to us of our own karmas only and that of no body

else. By that yardstick- you enjoy free will both in efforts and in

results. " Freedom " is natural and automatic, our birth

right. " Bondage " is artificial and created, falsely perceived.

Beneath there is " freedom " not " limitations or bondage " ! Freedom

hence prevails everywhere in the basis/roots ! Freedom is automatic.

Freedom is programmed.

 

As simple as that Jee !

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

 

 

 

Dear Sadaks,

Sri Pratapji statement is stricking SAT. King Janaka once had a

dream that he was a begger on streets. He announced to all saints to

clarify that, " Whether he begger dreaming as a king OR whether he

king dreaming as a begger " . No one could clarify this. Then came an

eight-fold deformed saint and said to the king that both are not

Sat. This is in detail in Asthavakra Geetha which nearly means Sri

Pratabji statement.

 

One is independant to say there is NO God. But that does not mean

the statement is accepted by the listeners at large. Besides the

listeners think that he is shouting of something that has NO

meaning. So such independent statement becomes Nil value. But if

someone says GOD is benevalent. This is accepted at large, and that

independence has value.

 

B.Sathyanarayan

 

 

PRIOR POSTING

 

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

I also want to offer my appreciation for B. Sathyanarainji for

bringing timely messages of all Great Realized Sages.

One such sage is Ramana Maharshi, spiritual giant! His Quote is

relevant in this context of independence/free-will satsang!

" There is neither creation, nor destruction, Neither Destiny, nor

Free-will; Neither path, nor acheivement; This is the final truth! "

And is consistent with Gita's teaching between the lines!

Namaskar...........Pratap Bhatt

--

Independent will action etc is more wishful thinking, your actions

are governed by you brain biochemistry and that by your genes.

independence in action is something which has to be gained through

realisation of the self. it is a right to be earned as buddhahood,

anyway think about it as a model.

Ravi Bakhsi

 

 

Hari Om

 

Very right you are Dear Mike .You are not only right but accurate

and 'divine' too ! I will tell you how! I doubt if you had with you

Swamiji's Sadhak Sanjeevani when you wrote your last note. You used

the words 'atomic particles' , 'supreme intelligence' and 'divine

will' while reflecting upon BG 10:42! Even Swamiji in his purport to

the same verse explained using the same theme ! That is satsanga.

That is wave length to which one gets tuned in Satsanga ! That is

how 'divine' pervades the universe.

 

Swamiji said in His purport that in one part/fragment/particle of

God entire universe is held. Inspite of there being uncountable and

endless universes existing in His that small particle still that is

not full, there is still space for endless more universes. Just as-

a very small part of nature is our 'intelligence' , but inspite of

there being knowledge of many languages, syllables, arts etc we

can't say that there is no space left now more knowledge, more

languages, more syllables etc in the 'intelligence'. There is always

space left in the intellect for more knowledge. When a small part of

nature can be so limitless and still spacious, then how limitless

shall be the 'supreme divine intelligence' , the small particle of

God Himself who is 'beyond' nature, supreme, transcendental,

endless, limitless, and bottomless Himself. There in that 'supreme

divine intelligence' , space for more universes is specially vacant.

That fragment is still empty.

 

Note also Brother that till BG 10:41, Paramatma was answering

Arjuna's specific questions. Here in 18:42, Krishna Himself of His

own accord and. ' divine will ' is telling Arjuna that once you

look at Me , nothing will remain to be looked at. Why Arjuna should

any more be interested in knowing more 'vibhutis' of Him? Here

Krishna is giving the 'essence/juice/nectar " of an answer to

Arjuna's question- after giving detailed reply to his question upto

18:41 !

 

By the way the following is translation of BG 18:42 in Swamiji's

Sadhak Sanjeevani treatise on BG:

 

Link: Having answered Arjuna's question, in the next verse, the Lord

Himself reveals an important fact.

 

" Or what need is there, for you O Arjuna, of detailed knowledge? I

stand supporting the entire universe, with a single fragment, of

Myself "

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

 

 

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

I respect views expressed here on " my " (?) observations on Free-

will/Independence/Freedom. As I take it, this satsang is about

sharing our understanding by putting it on the table what we have

understood, to be examined by us all. I don't insist on saying this

is the only truth! Or we may be saying same thing in our different

words!

As I see, Understanding/Truth alone acts, not an individual!

I had similar observations about person having free-will,

independence, choice.

I was led to think deeply what lies behind those words we use

everyday.

As a limited body-mind identified person, we have limited free-will,

which is different than Freedom I(?) am referring to here. Freedom

is Total freedom from bondage of a false sense of " me " , the person.

Limited free-will is not a free-will as I understand. To be able to

do whatever we like is not a freedom we are talking about here, I

suppose. Choices may suggest confusion versus clarity. Clarity comes

from Totality! Some can say limited free-will is still free-will, I

don't.

Purpose here is to see free-will of a person versus Total Freedom

when limitations vanish!

" Person " is perceived object and is limited as such, while " we " are

All Perceiving Consciousness, Impersonal!

Sure, there is first and foremost, and always available free-will or

freedom to Realize we are not such a limited person afterall! If not

exercised, obviously we continue to live from limitations of pairs

of opposites, makeup of " a person " . As a matter of fact, we are

never ever " bound " ! If we are not free, we remain as if programmed

entity, always choosing what we think is good for " us " regardless of

so called " others " .

We are not doomed to remain as such as interpreted by some. To see

the falsehood and step out of such a " person(limitations) " to take

true stand as Atman is the purpose of Human life.

IF Vasudevah Sarvam is true, then we cannot be Vasudeva as

individual person with limited free-will is what I meant to share.

Swamiji says " All are ONE, and ONE is all " . Even when I act as

seemingly individual, only God or total intelligence acts! I have to

knowingly act as such!

We only have right over actions, but independence in acting is

limited, if remain limited!

To me, as Jesus says, Will is always God's Will, never " mine " ,

because there is no " I " , the individual except in ignorance, or

dream from which we need to wake up!

Individual jeeva has no reality apart from Ishwara! If Jeeva is

enlightened, Jeevahood is merged in Ishwara. In Yagna of True

knowledge, Devotion, and Selfless karmas, individuality is the

sacred offering!

Namaskar............Pratap Bhatt

 

 

 

-------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

-Shree Hari-

 

Vyasji I am so glad that you mentioned B Sathyanarainji, I always

read his comments to the best of my abilities, and realise there is

wise council in his revelations. Even though we may be at the oposite

ends of the divine rainbow, we are linked by this sacred Satsang.

Sathyanarainji you have my greatest respect, I bow to you.

 

Paramatma is; in all down to the smallest sub atomic particle,(and

beyond that), in 'The Supreme', is, as it were the 'Supreme

Intelligence', the 'Divine Will' holds all in existence.

If a leaf trembles in the wind, it is free to do so, if a person does

good or bad he/she is free to do so,(not withstanding Karma).

Remember good, bad, are opposites that exist in the illusion of

duality.

 

In Gitaji 10:

Of what value is it for you

To know all this, O Arjuna?

I ever support this whole world

By just one portion of Myself. (42)

 

To me B.G. 10 as a whole is worth a read I believe when dealing with

this subject.

 

With Respect and Divine Love,

 

Mike Keenor

-------------------------------

 

Jai Shri Krishna,

 

Pratapji may please note that ONLY in human life a person has

privilege of " Free will " . Human life is adored by Scriptures because

of that only. Use your " conscience " , change your path ! If human

life is " programmed " then what makes this life superior to animals

or Devatas? Is God that cruel ? God or Shiva referred by you did not

make the players in this Lila - dependent/helpless ! In order

to " play " , a " player " must have independence!

 

You have free will / independence always, at all times in human

life, upto the last breath. Human life is the greatest form of life-

undoubtedly ! If in this life, one presumes that one

is " programmed " - then in which life he will get " unprogrammed " ?

 

Narayan Narayan

Rajendra J Bohra

 

 

 

Jai Hanuman

 

Ok Pratap Bhaiyya ! Now I have read it fully Jee ! Twice, Jee !! But

what is the theme ? Why did you lose independence? Why did you get

bound? Why other person is not as accurately and precisely bound by

the same " programmed action " ? Who fell into the well of desires,

me/mine notion? How? Exercise of " free will " , misutilisation

thereof !!

 

I quote you only here Pratapji :

 

" All actions, ordinarily, are decided/driven by desires/fears,

likes/dislike(raagas/dwesha), pleasurable/painful experiences of the

past memories. "

 

Now tell me - desires/fears/likes/dislikes of whom? Could you not

have chosen to be otherwise? Yes !! Can't you even today choose not

to be swayed by them? Yes !!

 

You have free will even when you are completely in " bondage " state.

Else how a sinner most person like Valmiki/Angulimaal became

Dharmatma? What is sanctity of Gita 9:31? Free will !! Correct

choice !! That choice is action !!

 

Let us Read again what you wrote:

 

" And unfortunately, the person thinks " he " is acting

as if " me-doer " is different than " his " (assumed only) desires or

fears or likes/dislikes! Isn't this strange, come to think of it? Is

there such a thing as Person with free-will, if this is his story? "

 

Is thinking or not thinking that " me/doer " is different or same or

whatever, not arising out of " free will " ? Do not you have

choice/option there ?? Tell me categorically what prevents you from

applying conscience and changing your perception? Free will is still

there with you! Bondage lies in mind only. Change the mind ! Who

prevents?

 

There after you stated :

 

" It is as if he/she is programmed by such conditioning which controls

his/her entire life. Where is the freedom to act in such a

programmed person? Person itself is fictitious entity and so is the

free-will of such a person.

 

Funny argument, isn't it- Pratap Bhaiyya ? Why did he fall into that

shape at first place? Misutilisation of free will ! Has he/she

referred by you become optionless now? No ! No !! If he/she is

programmed, doesn't that mean he/she can't realise God, or change

for better? Gone for ever ! Worse than even an animal ! No, it can't

be so ! Rather it is certainly not so !!

 

Is every human being is exactly what is described here ? No! No !!

Difference in degree/intensity/circumstances/positioning/ etc

between two individuals is due to what ? Exercise of that free

will !!

 

Your statements convert great human birth into a slave birth,

programmed by God as punishment !! Wrong! Wrong !

 

You went on to state :

 

In another context, I can say that person has just one free-will,

and that is that he/she can choose to remain body-mind identified

individual or be Atman(by knowing/surrendering).

If he/she doesn't exercise this one freedom given to all, then that

is the last freedom he had, and he remains bound essentially!

 

So in stroke, you concluded that " this one is the last freedom he

had and he remains bound essentially " !! Very Good Jee ! Now where

is need for Saints and Sages/Gitaji? Where is any scope left for

him/her to make amends? Free will destroyed for ever!! He/she is

gone for ever, Jee !! Isn't it? Now there are no options

available !! Human birth got wasted long back! Now cry and live as a

puppet! Animals then become far better than humans !!

 

Isn't that the conclusion? No I don't agree with you, once again ,

Pratap Bhaiyya ! You have " free will " alive in you at all times, in

all places, in all circumstances, so long as you are in human

body !! Even in most " bondaged state " - you have " free will " in you-

ready for use !! You can make amends anytime during the course of

human life ! Come On , Pratap Bhaiyya !! Human birth is sought even

by Demi Gods! Why ? Free Will available at all times, Jee ! Isn't

it ??

 

Please also note Pratap Bhaiyya- Both Karma Yoga and Jnana Yoga are

only practiced by a human being by remaining identified with

body/mind etc. Realisation comes later on. Free will remains always-

at the beginning, in the middle and in the end. Human life is " karma

yoni " ! There is a provision of conversion of " karmas "

into " akarmas " ( Karma yoga) not cessation of karmas. There is

provision of " assuming non doership " (Jnana Yoga) not cessation of

doing. There is provision of surrendering/offerring whatever you do

to God ( Bhakti Yoga- " yatkaroshi " BG 9:26) and not " na-karoshi " -

not doing. " Not doing " is impossible in human birth.

However, " Assumptions " / " Acceptances " of all sorts viz " I am

doer " , " I am not doer " , " I am of God " , " I am of world " etc are

possible. Those assumptions are examples again of FREE WILL

available to Self.

 

Hope you are crystal clear now.

 

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

--------------------------------

 

 

------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

 

Hari Om

 

One can't cease to admire the talent accumulated in this GT Group.

Indeed it is a divine group. How humble are real Satsangis !! One

such humble Satsangi is B Sathyanarainji. In every posting of him,

you will find history, names and references of great souls !! He

invariably remembers realised souls, great characters of past, great

events stated in our Holy Scriptures !.

 

No Sir. You can never be wrong !

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

-------------------------------

 

The following may kindly be added to the response given by Sadak

Vyas N B

 

" After you do your karma say to " move the leaf " , whether

the leaf moves or not is not in your hands. "

+

and very interestingly no sincere and honest effort goes waste.

The leaf moves.

 

For more, one needs to understand " Who am I " by self enquiry......

Best wishes...

 

Sushil Jain

-------------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

This refers to Shashikalaji's observations on my previous post. With

all respects, I may point out that I wish, Shashikalaji, you had

read entire post, instead of stopping after the first sentence as

you say you did.

If asked what does " person " who is supposed to have free-will mean,

what would be the answer? For me, it means a sense of " I-me " rooted

in desires, fears, and likes/dislikes.

This sense of " I-me " becomes so strong in the absence of

questioning, " it " becomes person himself/herself. " It " (insentient)

becomes " me " , so to speak.

This " I " is the superimposed sense on Reality of Being(Is-ness as

Swamiji calls).

All actions, ordinarily, are decided/driven by desires/fears,

likes/dislike(raagas/dwesha), pleasurable/painful experiences of the

past memories. And unfortunately, the person thinks " he " is acting

as if " me-doer " is different than " his " (assumed only) desires or

fears or likes/dislikes! Isn't this strange, come to think of it? Is

there such a thing as Person with free-will, if this is his story?

It is as if he/she is programmed by such conditioning which controls

his/her entire life. Where is the freedom to act in such a

programmed person? Person itself is fictitious entity and so is the

free-will of such a person. (please see this crucial point, that

which acts is conditioning, not a person entity, then it is easy to

see no free-will in conditioning).

 

Even when he pretends to have free-will it is only out of knowns,

sum total of conditioning, karmas, called mind or ignorance-Jeeva or

subtle/causal body. Free-will is limited in scope, whereas

Freedom/Independence we are talking here, is Freedom from

conditioning/karmas, freedom even from demand for freedom. (If Shiva

wants play jeeva, who can stop?)

So even when he decides to act differently in the name of

purushartha to overpower karmas, the actions are still based on

different sets of knowns (this is the extent of his free-will). All

Knowns being limited, it cannot bring freedom that comes from taking

true stand as Atman!

Thus, as I understand, either through self-knowledge, or through

self-surrender or selfless karmas, person(doership-Karta) disappears

into Atman-Consciousness which IS all Impersonal Intelligence(not

personal intellect), divine intimation(conscience) speaks to an

apparant " person " as His instrument to act for greater good.

This is what Arjuna did.

OF course, no body can deny that result of action is what it would

be according to many variables, only one of which is this supposed

person with free-will.

 

In " karmanyevadikaraste " verse of Gita, my understanding is that

person has choice in acting only, not on the result. But the acts

that come from him/her is not necessarily from freedom, unless one

takes stand as Atman! No one can remain without doing karma(Gita)

suggests that " personal " freedom is not given because it may be in

conflict with Divine Will.

 

In another context, I can say that person has just one free-will,

and that is that he/she can choose to remain body-mind identified

individual or be Atman(by knowing/surrendering).

If he/she doesn't exercise this one freedom given to all, then that

is the last freedom he had, and he remains bound essentially!

Thus, as I understand, it is better to act as if God as Will in " me "

is acting through " me " , the instrument. THEN, all actions are going

to be Divine and can never be evil even if they seem like evil

(mahabharat war). Try this perspective, and see what happens!

Namaskar...............Pratap

 

 

JAI SITARAMJIKI. No doubt not even a leaf moves without God's will;

In a billionth of a second the whole universe, each atom, is being

destroyed and remade. When I started writing and at this moment now

I

am not the same person, just like you cannot take a second dip in the

same water of a river; it is always a new water which has come along.

I, each atom of me, has been destroyed and remade. This is how the

universe is working which gives each one of us a chance to inject our

karma, whether good or bad, but then do not forget that we have

accumulated so much of the past karma in our millions of previous

births (we are carrying a heavy load of our past karma) that that

tendency or sanskars motivate us to decide whether we act for the

good

of all, or selfishly for our own good only; and therefore we

ourselves

are the only one responsible for whatever we do or do not do. If you

pray hard enough and do NAAM JAP all the time, and surrender your

will

to God, God will help you to make only the right decisions henceforth

thus changing your destiny for the better.

 

BHAJ RE MANA SITARAM SITARAM SITARAM.

 

Sher Agrawal

 

Dear Sadaks,

Many desires are full filled in practical life and many remain

unfull filled. The root for desire is our own Prarabdha Karma. What

one desires other hates- How? Karma. The thoughts of desires arises

from within designed by Bagavan. It is we feel by Maya that

unfulfilled or fulfilled.

B.Sathyanarayan

 

How is Man independent in performing actions ?

 

It depends on our perception – our beleifs – of what is action and

what is man. Any change in matter-energy patterns perpetuated

through one's body, mind and senses is normally conceived as action.

Generally speaking, an idividual calling himself man believes to be

independent in performing several actions because he knows how he

depends on many for the actualising the same. In other words,

independence is claimed only with the dependence in the background.

 

Any action perceived is a conjugation between an individual and its

environment. The individual, the environment, as well as the medium

of interaction between the two are equal particpants in any

perceived action. I can't call any of these as even partners because

I do not think any of these are independently or collectively

capable of precipitating an action on their own. All the actions

perceived are fragments of images of the monolithic Action Supreme

as sensed by the cognitive cluster of senses the individual is

blessed with.

 

The perception is apparently in individual's hand and hence one

often utters that a man (and a woman, an animal, a plant, and

anything as such) is independent to perceive … incapable of

distingushing a perception from an action, one may try to claim an

indepednece of performing action as well. Truly speaking, even

perception examined carefully reveals the fact that so many elements

of one's system are involved even to perceive the thoughts … let

alone act upon the physical world.

 

Na hi kashchit kshanamapi jaatu tishthatyakarmakrit |

Kaaryate hyavashah karma sarvah prakritijairgunaih ||

 

Nothing in this universe is capable of negating The Action and

transcend the mode of action. Everything is optionless but to follow

the course of action dictated by the individual nature.

 

Bhayadasyaagnistapati bhayaattapati suryah |

Bhayaadindrashch vaayushcha Mrityurdhaavati panchamah ||

 

Everything, let alone perishable beings like a man, even cosmic

forces such as sun, fire, matter, death, and knowledge follow the

locus of action with absolute obedience.

 

Karma bramhodbhavam viddhi bramhaakshara samudbhavam |

Tasmaatsarvagatam bramha nityam yagnye pratishthitam ||

 

The Action is verily rooted in The Absolute being The Invariant as

such. The Absolute is inherent in everything through The Action as

such being the Invariant in all the variance that could be perceived

in this universe.

 

If it all anything is independent only The Action is independent.

Probably, man who has identified one with The Action could also be

independent in performing actions. But the difficulty here is there

is nothing left to act upon in such as state! There is no plurality

of actions in such a unified state!!

 

On the other hand, the notion of independence is stemms out of our

belief in dependence on the elements of life to conduct our own

lives. From spiritual stand point, when every element in this

universe is just participating in the action as per its own nature,

how can anything depend on anything at all? If we examine carefully,

the very notion of dependence becomes a myth. Therefore, the

imagination built upon such a myth – independence – is just an

illusion.

 

Therefore, the statement " a man is independent of performing

actions " does not make sense to me from spiritual perspective

wherein the concepts such as independence, performance, plurality of

action, etc. disperse into the oblivion once the bliefs that support

their legetimacy is rattled with absolute persistence.

 

Respects.

 

Naga Narayana

 

 

PRIOR POSTING

 

Hari Om

 

I think the following principle brought out by Vineetji must be

reconsidered by him for it defies all logics :

 

" that what happened was Paramatma's will, and that which did not

happen was our desire (which was apart from Paramatma's will) .That

is it! " All happennings are His will . Where is question of any

distinction of the type " which did not happen was our desire (which

was apart from His will) " ??? How what does not happen is our

desire? What can happen which is apart from His will ?

 

Translation from Hindi to English has not contributed to this.

 

Please clarify.

 

Principle as grasped by me from Swamiji and Gitaji is-

 

" In every doing we are independent, in any happenning, we are not

independent "

 

That is law. No happenning is capable enough to force a reaction

from us. No doing can be forced.

 

Moreover, to say that even asking the question by Sadhak Ramji

writing the answer by you is due to divine will is a faulty concept.

It snatches away capacity of human being of " karmanye

vaadhikaraste " ! God does not like us to attribute our independence

of doing karmas too to His divine will. How can He? You can't remain

without doing Karma even for a fraction of a second - this means you

are responsible for the same. God is not responsible for the same.

He only gave us independence. He is a disinterested friend. We reap

as we sow ! Even if you are totally " surrendered " soul or even if

you are " liberated " - " in doing " you have complete independence so

long you live in a human body. Just imagine, if some sadhak

stretches this concept a bit further and says " I did this deed ,

because God willed that " . That deed can be any deed - why not?

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

-

 

Dear all,

Bhagawaan has given us the intellect to discriminate what we should

do and what we should desist from doing as being not spiritually

good. He has also allowed His Maaya to have its sway on us to see if

we heed to the intellect or come under the sway of ignorance.

A spiritually oriented man does what is good or Shreyas and desists

from the pleasurable or Preyas. Here is man's independance. Also

allowing us to do what we choose to is Bhagawaan's will.

Jai Shree Krishna!

Prof ( Major ) Ramanujam

 

 

Dear Sadaks,

We know that we are single Advaitham (No you and me) as it

says " Aham Bramasmi " . You are part of Braman and have the

indipencence of thought and action. But you have NO indipendence

over death, birth, place of birth, caste, to whom born, whether in

rich or poor family, the type of Karma (cart puller, car driver,

train driver, house maid, luxurious life, handicapped, beautiful or

ugly, one time popper another face of life rich, rich becoming poor

ETC ETc). For the action and thought one does one is responsible.

Valmiki Rishi was a thief earlier until Sage Nararad told that

robbing other will yield sins that affects only him NOT to his

family members though they are enjoying the gain from theft.

Realization took place and he became Valmiki. Here one can note why

Sage Narad chose this perticular thief to impart knowledge though

there were 100 of thieves. Karma Pala of earlier birth brings Guru

to rescue.

" Karmanye vaadhikaraste, ma phaleshu kadchan " - I feel that this

means one is indipendant of performing action, but NOT indipendant

to decide the fruit of Action. Scripts say that Sri Vishnu is giver

of Karma Pala. Kans could have been killed along with other demons.

Time factor. Sank is the sound of Warning and Chakra is time factor

of Sri Vishnu. Garuda is symbol of speed as Sri Vishnu is sustainer

which is required fast enough to keep life going. Bagavan Shiva

destructor-- Buffelow is time factor (slow and steady the time and

aging takes place without one` s knowledge), small drum on HIS hand

is death knell, thrishulam takes the soul from body. Vibhuti (Sacred

ashes of Bagavan Shiva) is that one becomes ashes after death.

Many do wrong things like murdering, raping, robbing, insulting Etc.

This is because of independence given to human. Animals have no

intellect and they behave as they are. So animals do not do anything

independently (They remain silent even if they are killed and the

animal from that herd does not revenge- Like father got killed son

revenges) That is why animals raise from lower birth to human level.

So I feel that, " HUMAN IS INDEPENDENT OF ACTION BUT NOT INDEPENDENT

OF THE FRUITS OF ACTION " . " Karmanye vaadhikaraste, ma phaleshu

kadchan "

PARDON ME IF I AM WRONG

B.Sathyanarayan

 

 

PRIOR POSTING

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

In English

 

Brother Ramji, Your asking the question, and this written response

is also happening as per Paramatma's Will. By such acceptance, it

will make you contented, that what happened was Paramatma's will,

and that which did not happen was our desire (which was apart from

Paramatma's will) . That is it ! The work is done, and once again

we become engaged in meditating on that Paramatma. Ram Ram Ram

 

Vineet, Sarvottam

 

IN HINDI

Bhaiyyaa Ramji, Aapkaa prashna poochnaa aur yeh utter likhnaa bhi

usee Paramaatmaaki icchaa (sweekruti) ke anusaar ho rahaa hai. Isse

aise sweekaar karnaa aapko santushta karegaa ki jo huaa wah toh thi

Paramaatmaa ki icchaa aur jo kuch bhi nahin huaa wah thi humaari

(Paramaatmaatmaa se alag) icchaa. Bas kaam ban gayaa aur lag gaye

usi Paramaatmaa ke dhyaan mein. Ram Ram Ram.

 

Vineet, Sarvottam

 

-------------------------------

Jai Hanuman

 

Pratap Bhaiyya! Read again your first sentence ! Frankly I did not

read afterwards! There is no question of there being any doubt

whatsoever in a person " not having a free will/independence in

performing an action " ! One always has a free will there !! Come

what may !!!

 

Similarly there is no question or doubt of there " being any kind of

free will or independence in the results of an action " made by a

person - come what may !!

 

Efforts/performance is always in your hands. Results is always

beyond your hands !

 

There are subtle principles Jee - in the above laws , too !! They

appear juxtaposing but in reality they indeed are crystal clear!

 

I can also argue that the results ultimately are chosen/ determined

by the " doer " ! Come on !! That also is equally true - but in long

term and in reality ! How incomprehensible and contradictory that

reality appears ? But still true !! Truth prevails in whatever way

you see that, from whatever angle you perceive that, in whichever

position you are positioned !! Afterall it is truth !

 

Pratap Bhaiyya !! I am also aware of the fact that " karmanusarini

buddhih " ( Intellect changes as per prior deeds) - but Dear Brother,

I also know that " Purushartha " (capacity of humans to do karmas-

free will / independence ) prevails over waves of " sphuranas " (

thoughts arising due to prior deeds- Prarabdha )caused by altered

intellect due to past karmas , Jee !

 

All said and done- " Anhonee hoti nahin, honi hai so hoi " ( What is

not to 'happen' shall not, what is to 'happen' shall ) - at the same

time - in 'doing' you always remain free/independent ! That is law !!

 

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

--------------------------------

 

-------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Hari Om

 

Not a leaf " moves " is the result. Sure! It is in God's hands only.

What is stated is that " not a leaf moves " . It is not stated that " no

effort to move a leaf " is possible by a human being. Question of

free will arises in making efforts - not in results thereof. Hence

you can always make an effort to move the leaf. You are independent

in that. After you do your karma say to " move the leaf " , whether

the leaf moves or not is not in your hands.

 

As simple as that! " Karmanye vaadhikaraste, ma phaleshu kadchan " -

you are entitled to make efforts, you have no role to play in

consequential results !

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

-------------------------------

 

Priy pratap ji

you let or dont let BUT Thy will be done. thats for sure.

Raja Gurdasani

-------------------------------

namasthe all,

 

Everything happens (eacha nd every small and minute action, whatever

it may be), only with the GRACE/POWER/DIVINITY of that SUPREME

divinity.

Regards,

Bharathi

 

 

--------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

 

Man or woman is not independent in performing actions as long as one

takes oneself to be body identified person. This body identification

provides a stage to function in the world-stage for playing one's

roles to serve. Unfortunately this identification provides plateform

on which " individuality " in terms of desires, fears, likes/dislikes

constitute subtle body-mind-stuff, which takes control of his/her

life. This is what he/she calls " I " or " me " , and thus 'mineness " is

born. ( " Mineness " is born only after " me " is born first).

 

When one such a one acts, it is only this " me " , disguised as

desires/fears really act, and always attempts to protect " imagined

him/her " or what is perceived to be of his/hers.

 

So there is no independent actions out of such a one, always reacting

to situations in self-defense not knowing his true SELF-Atman-true

independence to act.

 

When one acquires the knowledge of one's true Self, through whatever

means prescribed in Gita or other Scriptures, one is aware of " me " in

its true colors just as it arises and stays away from acting to

protect it. There is a total freedom to act out of That which we

truly

are, Love, Compassion ourselves in the abscense of " me " !

 

Actions are then seen as coming from Totality of Being and not

personal.

 

Such a one can truly say " Let Thy Will be done " as Jesus said. When a

leaf moves, it is God's will through nature, and when we act, it is

God as our Will acts, whatever be the act!

 

Namaskar........

 

Pratap Bhatt

 

What we are today is the result of our past karmas. What we will

become in our next birth will be the result of our present karmas.

The

goal of every soul is to become one with God ultimately, that is for

the atma to become one with Parmatma. This is called attaining moksh

or liberation from the endless and painful cycle of birth and death.

Since everything in this world is an illusion, it is upto us to first

connect with our soul through meditation and through good karmas,

then

to attain moksh from 8.4 million births. So we do have a choice. Not

everything is pre-ordained.

 

Hari Shanker Deo

 

 

Dear Sadhaks,

It is true that nothing moves without HIS will. But Bhagavan has

created and

designed the whole creation that nothing goes missing without HIS

knowledge is

the meaning. This is very large subject to go in detail. But an

example can be

given. Human has 5 pranas, governed by 5 boothas and 5 layers Auras

(which can

be photographed by Kerlion Camara). So any smallest Thought or

action or both

are independent to humans. Every action or thought is recorded by

the one`s own

Aura resulting in cause and effect. The action done by body is

called Kayaka

Karma. Finding mistake on anything is also wrong Karma as one

forgets the Eswara

Sarvaboothanam. The thought is called Maanisha Karma. So when one

does good or

bad it is automatically rewarded. This means the actions does not go

unrewarded.

This again means that Bhagavan is under knowledge of all. So it

means that

nothing moves without HIS knowledge. One has to understand that to

come to Human

form from lower births is with HIS grace. Human is given

independence to do

Karmas. This independence (By way of intellect) to Human is given by

Bhagavan to

elevate to Divinity

B.Sathyanarayan

 

-

 

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------------------------

 

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Narayana Narayana

 

In English

 

It is said that not a leaf can move without Bhagwaan's will

(wishes), then how is man independent in performing actions?

 

Ramchandra

 

In Hindi

Bhagwan ki marji ke bina pataa bhi nahin hiltaa, phir manushya karam

karne mein kaise swatantra hai?

 

Ramchandra

 

 

 

NEW POSTING

 

-Shree Hari-

 

A few points have come up recently:

 

Vyasji, I too have considered for quite some time now, that there is

space for affectively an infinite number of universes within the

domain of what is referred to as existence.

 

Adrian, there are experiential insights to what is often called

reality, everything a person considers to be a fact can be cast

asunder, the very paradigm that a jiva finds to be true, through all

its existences, can suddenly be found to be of no value.

To borrow from Bede Griffiths, one finds, 'A New vision of Reality'.

Now the point is, one Lives this new reality, now if one Lives this

new reality, then one understands that this New Vision is transitory.

Thus the deeper, (for want of a better expression), 'Reality' takes

one, then the more one looks towards 'Fana' (inhalation).

In this changed vision of reality, of course one is not an object in

time. But one has to Live this reality. (Actually there is nothing els one can

do).

Thus Adrien I agree in what you are saying, I suppose there is an

intellectual understanding, and experiential knowing, step by step,

some truly blessed souls a quantum leap.

 

Gitaji 11:

You the Primal God, the Ancient Purusha;

You are Supreme Refuge of this universe,

Knower, the One Thing to be known; Supreme Goal;

By You is the whole universe pervaded. (38)

 

The Holy Lord said:

Verily, hard indeed it is

To behold this great form of Mine

Which you have seen. Even the gods

Ever long to behold this form. (52)

 

Not by Vedic study, nor by

Austerity, nor by gifts, nor

By sacrifice can I be seen

As on this day you have seen Me. (53)

 

By single-minded devotion

I may be known in this true form,

Seen in reality, also

Entered into, Scorcher of Foes. (54)

 

With Respect and Divine Love,

 

Mike Keenor

-------------------------------

 

One cannot say one is dependent or independent. One is interdependent.

Let me explain, in terms of relationships. One is not dependent on one's mother

when they are in her womb but interdependent. How? Our soul is temporarily in

her body not permanently, we do come out at birth. In the same way our soul is

encased in this human body and we are interdependent on mother earth for our

sustenance. Our air, food and other needs are provided by the earth. Our

physical needs cannot be met without air, water, plants, crops which provide us

with rice,

vegetables, and ingredients for our herbs and medicine.

 

Where does a higher force or being come into play? Can you for one

second exist on earth without air? You will physically die. Definitely you are

not independent of the earth. Neither are you dependent on it at a non-physical

level. This comes to the idea of a soul. You existed before you entered your

mother's womb and you will continue to exist after you exit from your mother

earth's womb but not the universe. How?

Something that exists does not cease to exist and something that does

not exist cannot exist. Our form may change but our essence stays.

Something from science. Energy cannot be destroyed but can change from one form

into another. Matter is form and energy is formless.

 

Hope this has helped some.

 

Prashanth

 

PRIOR POSTING

 

Man himself is an action, his whole body/mind is action only. How

then is it possible in a universe that is One unbroken consciousness

for an apparent part to be other than interdependant?

IT IS NOT!

Man has no free will, all his actions are done by the Whole. Once it

is seen (by no-one) that there is no inner being within the form,

nobody, then all actions are seen to be just ripples arising from

the stillness of Being.

Your very question is an action of the Whole as is this reply for

there is only One.

In Love Avasa

(Adrien Meyer)

--------------------------------

You.

 

The manifestation that is called Life is an unavoidable experience

once the birth of the form has taken place. This experience in itself

is neither good nor bad, it is simply experience. Within this

experience there arises the idea that there is an experiencer of this

and the judgement of events gets then categorised as negative and

positive.

 

What is witnessing all of the experiences is something, which has no

something-ness about it, that is neutral. It is out of this

neutrality that the play of Life is manifesting. This neutrality is

witness to what takes place, including the arising of judgment, to

this one all is simply arising.

 

This one is all that there actually is, the One manifesting as the

apparent many. Right now in this very moment and in every moment

what is witnessing the play of life and all the reactions and

responses to it is this neutrality that is the source of all that

appears. It is this that is experiencing its own creation right now

as the one that you imagine yourself to be, a separate individual

being.

You are not what you imagine yourself to be, what you actually are

can never be put into the framework of the imagination for you have

no image, you are void. What you are is what IS when the activity of

the mind ceases to draw images upon what you are. You are not a

thing, you are the absence of thing-ness, you are no-thing-ness.

This that you actually are is also what all is. All form is the

manifestation of this no-thing-ness and through this manifestation

this no-thing-ness experiences Life. This is the Truth of you, this

is what is actually factually true. You are not an object of time as

you have been supposing but the subject of all objectivity.

Right now this is true of you, it has and is and always will be true

of you for Truth never changes. You are the Source itself manifesting

as all that is and experiencing your manifestation.

This cannot be attained because it is what you already are.

This is not in a becoming process for it is always utterly complete.

This cannot be reached for it is not elsewhere, neither in time nor

in space.

This cannot be experienced for as this you are the subject of all

experiences, a non-experience in yourself.

There is therefore nothing that needs to be done to get to this, it

is simply what IS. It is all that IS.

 

Right now this is the fact of what you are and whether the seeing of

this is happening or not does not in any way change the fact of what

you are.

 

The body is your creation, right now, the arising of the thoughts and

feeling that make up the play of the mind are your creation, right

now, and the manifestation of what appears to be a world 'out there'

is the reflection of this, right now.

 

All that is appearing is appearing within this presence that knows of

its appearance, this presence is what you are and as this you are

unborn, therefore undying, the eternal itself.

You go nowhere for you are the now of here, you are being, simply

Being.

 

Being this with you always, Love Avasa.

(Adrien Meyer)

 

-------------------------------

Jai Hanuman

 

I would not have given my views had I too perceived the discussion

purpose to be below as perceived by some :

 

" Purpose here is to see free-will of a person versus Total Freedom

when limitations vanish! "

 

No ! As I understood the question of Ramji (so did the questioner

himself ) - there the purpose is free will/independence of karma and

control of a human being over the same vis a vis the results meted

out by 'divine will' to him !

 

Free will has nothing to do with 'liberation' or 'freedom'

or 'emancipation'. Even liberated souls are free to do karmas and

Gita suggests karma for them. Even God does karma and so does a

bonded soul. In doing karma/efforts all human beings have free will

irrespective of their present status . In results only 'divine

will' operates irrespective of their present status !

 

Vasudevah Sarvam referred by some is a different principle

altogether. Consider the below quote made by some :

 

IF Vasudevah Sarvam is true, then we cannot be Vasudeva as

individual person with limited free-will is what I meant to share.

 

Again I must disagree with above statement Jee ! Whether you

are " individual person with limited free will " or you are an

otherwise person or you are a 'person' in whatever way you perceive

that, whether you are 'programmed' or otherwise - Vasudevah Sarvam

is still true irrespective of the above or any perceivable

distinctions of any sort. The very concept of Vasudevah Sarvam is

that " He is real as well as unreal " - 'sadsachaham Arjun " (BG 9:19).

Nothing escapes that. No distinctions or divisions impact

that ! " Sarvam " means " sarvam " !! No state however gross or subtle

it may be, however real or unreal it may be, however disllusioned or

clear it may be, however liberated or bound it may be- no state can

ever be beyond " Vasudevah " ! In any case how that state is reached

by a human, is certainly beyond the scope of this question.

 

If following statement is true then what I have stated herein above

and before is also true.

 

" Individual jeeva has no reality apart from Ishwara! "

 

Sure Truth prevails and it prevails as under :

 

Since Ishwara has free will hence Jeeva being fragment of Him, must

always have the same. If one goes deeper then he finds out that in

long run and in reality, in results ( " effect " ) too you have freedom,

because you had freedom in karma ( " cause " ). You choose the results

invariably when you choose to act. This is really deep dive. God

metes out " results' to us of our own karmas only and that of no body

else. By that yardstick- you enjoy free will both in efforts and in

results. " Freedom " is natural and automatic, our birth

right. " Bondage " is artificial and created, falsely perceived.

Beneath there is " freedom " not " limitations or bondage " ! Freedom

hence prevails everywhere in the basis/roots ! Freedom is automatic.

Freedom is programmed.

 

As simple as that Jee !

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

 

 

 

Dear Sadaks,

Sri Pratapji statement is stricking SAT. King Janaka once had a

dream that he was a begger on streets. He announced to all saints to

clarify that, " Whether he begger dreaming as a king OR whether he

king dreaming as a begger " . No one could clarify this. Then came an

eight-fold deformed saint and said to the king that both are not

Sat. This is in detail in Asthavakra Geetha which nearly means Sri

Pratabji statement.

 

One is independant to say there is NO God. But that does not mean

the statement is accepted by the listeners at large. Besides the

listeners think that he is shouting of something that has NO

meaning. So such independent statement becomes Nil value. But if

someone says GOD is benevalent. This is accepted at large, and that

independence has value.

 

B.Sathyanarayan

 

 

PRIOR POSTING

 

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

I also want to offer my appreciation for B. Sathyanarainji for

bringing timely messages of all Great Realized Sages.

One such sage is Ramana Maharshi, spiritual giant! His Quote is

relevant in this context of independence/free-will satsang!

" There is neither creation, nor destruction, Neither Destiny, nor

Free-will; Neither path, nor acheivement; This is the final truth! "

And is consistent with Gita's teaching between the lines!

Namaskar...........Pratap Bhatt

--

Independent will action etc is more wishful thinking, your actions

are governed by you brain biochemistry and that by your genes.

independence in action is something which has to be gained through

realisation of the self. it is a right to be earned as buddhahood,

anyway think about it as a model.

Ravi Bakhsi

 

 

Hari Om

 

Very right you are Dear Mike .You are not only right but accurate

and 'divine' too ! I will tell you how! I doubt if you had with you

Swamiji's Sadhak Sanjeevani when you wrote your last note. You used

the words 'atomic particles' , 'supreme intelligence' and 'divine

will' while reflecting upon BG 10:42! Even Swamiji in his purport to

the same verse explained using the same theme ! That is satsanga.

That is wave length to which one gets tuned in Satsanga ! That is

how 'divine' pervades the universe.

 

Swamiji said in His purport that in one part/fragment/particle of

God entire universe is held. Inspite of there being uncountable and

endless universes existing in His that small particle still that is

not full, there is still space for endless more universes. Just as-

a very small part of nature is our 'intelligence' , but inspite of

there being knowledge of many languages, syllables, arts etc we

can't say that there is no space left now more knowledge, more

languages, more syllables etc in the 'intelligence'. There is always

space left in the intellect for more knowledge. When a small part of

nature can be so limitless and still spacious, then how limitless

shall be the 'supreme divine intelligence' , the small particle of

God Himself who is 'beyond' nature, supreme, transcendental,

endless, limitless, and bottomless Himself. There in that 'supreme

divine intelligence' , space for more universes is specially vacant.

That fragment is still empty.

 

Note also Brother that till BG 10:41, Paramatma was answering

Arjuna's specific questions. Here in 18:42, Krishna Himself of His

own accord and. ' divine will ' is telling Arjuna that once you

look at Me , nothing will remain to be looked at. Why Arjuna should

any more be interested in knowing more 'vibhutis' of Him? Here

Krishna is giving the 'essence/juice/nectar " of an answer to

Arjuna's question- after giving detailed reply to his question upto

18:41 !

 

By the way the following is translation of BG 18:42 in Swamiji's

Sadhak Sanjeevani treatise on BG:

 

Link: Having answered Arjuna's question, in the next verse, the Lord

Himself reveals an important fact.

 

" Or what need is there, for you O Arjuna, of detailed knowledge? I

stand supporting the entire universe, with a single fragment, of

Myself "

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

 

 

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

I respect views expressed here on " my " (?) observations on Free-

will/Independence/Freedom. As I take it, this satsang is about

sharing our understanding by putting it on the table what we have

understood, to be examined by us all. I don't insist on saying this

is the only truth! Or we may be saying same thing in our different

words!

As I see, Understanding/Truth alone acts, not an individual!

I had similar observations about person having free-will,

independence, choice.

I was led to think deeply what lies behind those words we use

everyday.

As a limited body-mind identified person, we have limited free-will,

which is different than Freedom I(?) am referring to here. Freedom

is Total freedom from bondage of a false sense of " me " , the person.

Limited free-will is not a free-will as I understand. To be able to

do whatever we like is not a freedom we are talking about here, I

suppose. Choices may suggest confusion versus clarity. Clarity comes

from Totality! Some can say limited free-will is still free-will, I

don't.

Purpose here is to see free-will of a person versus Total Freedom

when limitations vanish!

" Person " is perceived object and is limited as such, while " we " are

All Perceiving Consciousness, Impersonal!

Sure, there is first and foremost, and always available free-will or

freedom to Realize we are not such a limited person afterall! If not

exercised, obviously we continue to live from limitations of pairs

of opposites, makeup of " a person " . As a matter of fact, we are

never ever " bound " ! If we are not free, we remain as if programmed

entity, always choosing what we think is good for " us " regardless of

so called " others " .

We are not doomed to remain as such as interpreted by some. To see

the falsehood and step out of such a " person(limitations) " to take

true stand as Atman is the purpose of Human life.

IF Vasudevah Sarvam is true, then we cannot be Vasudeva as

individual person with limited free-will is what I meant to share.

Swamiji says " All are ONE, and ONE is all " . Even when I act as

seemingly individual, only God or total intelligence acts! I have to

knowingly act as such!

We only have right over actions, but independence in acting is

limited, if remain limited!

To me, as Jesus says, Will is always God's Will, never " mine " ,

because there is no " I " , the individual except in ignorance, or

dream from which we need to wake up!

Individual jeeva has no reality apart from Ishwara! If Jeeva is

enlightened, Jeevahood is merged in Ishwara. In Yagna of True

knowledge, Devotion, and Selfless karmas, individuality is the

sacred offering!

Namaskar............Pratap Bhatt

 

 

 

-------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

-Shree Hari-

 

Vyasji I am so glad that you mentioned B Sathyanarainji, I always

read his comments to the best of my abilities, and realise there is

wise council in his revelations. Even though we may be at the oposite

ends of the divine rainbow, we are linked by this sacred Satsang.

Sathyanarainji you have my greatest respect, I bow to you.

 

Paramatma is; in all down to the smallest sub atomic particle,(and

beyond that), in 'The Supreme', is, as it were the 'Supreme

Intelligence', the 'Divine Will' holds all in existence.

If a leaf trembles in the wind, it is free to do so, if a person does

good or bad he/she is free to do so,(not withstanding Karma).

Remember good, bad, are opposites that exist in the illusion of

duality.

 

In Gitaji 10:

Of what value is it for you

To know all this, O Arjuna?

I ever support this whole world

By just one portion of Myself. (42)

 

To me B.G. 10 as a whole is worth a read I believe when dealing with

this subject.

 

With Respect and Divine Love,

 

Mike Keenor

-------------------------------

 

Jai Shri Krishna,

 

Pratapji may please note that ONLY in human life a person has

privilege of " Free will " . Human life is adored by Scriptures because

of that only. Use your " conscience " , change your path ! If human

life is " programmed " then what makes this life superior to animals

or Devatas? Is God that cruel ? God or Shiva referred by you did not

make the players in this Lila - dependent/helpless ! In order

to " play " , a " player " must have independence!

 

You have free will / independence always, at all times in human

life, upto the last breath. Human life is the greatest form of life-

undoubtedly ! If in this life, one presumes that one

is " programmed " - then in which life he will get " unprogrammed " ?

 

Narayan Narayan

Rajendra J Bohra

 

 

 

Jai Hanuman

 

Ok Pratap Bhaiyya ! Now I have read it fully Jee ! Twice, Jee !! But

what is the theme ? Why did you lose independence? Why did you get

bound? Why other person is not as accurately and precisely bound by

the same " programmed action " ? Who fell into the well of desires,

me/mine notion? How? Exercise of " free will " , misutilisation

thereof !!

 

I quote you only here Pratapji :

 

" All actions, ordinarily, are decided/driven by desires/fears,

likes/dislike(raagas/dwesha), pleasurable/painful experiences of the

past memories. "

 

Now tell me - desires/fears/likes/dislikes of whom? Could you not

have chosen to be otherwise? Yes !! Can't you even today choose not

to be swayed by them? Yes !!

 

You have free will even when you are completely in " bondage " state.

Else how a sinner most person like Valmiki/Angulimaal became

Dharmatma? What is sanctity of Gita 9:31? Free will !! Correct

choice !! That choice is action !!

 

Let us Read again what you wrote:

 

" And unfortunately, the person thinks " he " is acting

as if " me-doer " is different than " his " (assumed only) desires or

fears or likes/dislikes! Isn't this strange, come to think of it? Is

there such a thing as Person with free-will, if this is his story? "

 

Is thinking or not thinking that " me/doer " is different or same or

whatever, not arising out of " free will " ? Do not you have

choice/option there ?? Tell me categorically what prevents you from

applying conscience and changing your perception? Free will is still

there with you! Bondage lies in mind only. Change the mind ! Who

prevents?

 

There after you stated :

 

" It is as if he/she is programmed by such conditioning which controls

his/her entire life. Where is the freedom to act in such a

programmed person? Person itself is fictitious entity and so is the

free-will of such a person.

 

Funny argument, isn't it- Pratap Bhaiyya ? Why did he fall into that

shape at first place? Misutilisation of free will ! Has he/she

referred by you become optionless now? No ! No !! If he/she is

programmed, doesn't that mean he/she can't realise God, or change

for better? Gone for ever ! Worse than even an animal ! No, it can't

be so ! Rather it is certainly not so !!

 

Is every human being is exactly what is described here ? No! No !!

Difference in degree/intensity/circumstances/positioning/ etc

between two individuals is due to what ? Exercise of that free

will !!

 

Your statements convert great human birth into a slave birth,

programmed by God as punishment !! Wrong! Wrong !

 

You went on to state :

 

In another context, I can say that person has just one free-will,

and that is that he/she can choose to remain body-mind identified

individual or be Atman(by knowing/surrendering).

If he/she doesn't exercise this one freedom given to all, then that

is the last freedom he had, and he remains bound essentially!

 

So in stroke, you concluded that " this one is the last freedom he

had and he remains bound essentially " !! Very Good Jee ! Now where

is need for Saints and Sages/Gitaji? Where is any scope left for

him/her to make amends? Free will destroyed for ever!! He/she is

gone for ever, Jee !! Isn't it? Now there are no options

available !! Human birth got wasted long back! Now cry and live as a

puppet! Animals then become far better than humans !!

 

Isn't that the conclusion? No I don't agree with you, once again ,

Pratap Bhaiyya ! You have " free will " alive in you at all times, in

all places, in all circumstances, so long as you are in human

body !! Even in most " bondaged state " - you have " free will " in you-

ready for use !! You can make amends anytime during the course of

human life ! Come On , Pratap Bhaiyya !! Human birth is sought even

by Demi Gods! Why ? Free Will available at all times, Jee ! Isn't

it ??

 

Please also note Pratap Bhaiyya- Both Karma Yoga and Jnana Yoga are

only practiced by a human being by remaining identified with

body/mind etc. Realisation comes later on. Free will remains always-

at the beginning, in the middle and in the end. Human life is " karma

yoni " ! There is a provision of conversion of " karmas "

into " akarmas " ( Karma yoga) not cessation of karmas. There is

provision of " assuming non doership " (Jnana Yoga) not cessation of

doing. There is provision of surrendering/offerring whatever you do

to God ( Bhakti Yoga- " yatkaroshi " BG 9:26) and not " na-karoshi " -

not doing. " Not doing " is impossible in human birth.

However, " Assumptions " / " Acceptances " of all sorts viz " I am

doer " , " I am not doer " , " I am of God " , " I am of world " etc are

possible. Those assumptions are examples again of FREE WILL

available to Self.

 

Hope you are crystal clear now.

 

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

--------------------------------

 

 

------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

 

Hari Om

 

One can't cease to admire the talent accumulated in this GT Group.

Indeed it is a divine group. How humble are real Satsangis !! One

such humble Satsangi is B Sathyanarainji. In every posting of him,

you will find history, names and references of great souls !! He

invariably remembers realised souls, great characters of past, great

events stated in our Holy Scriptures !.

 

No Sir. You can never be wrong !

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

-------------------------------

 

The following may kindly be added to the response given by Sadak

Vyas N B

 

" After you do your karma say to " move the leaf " , whether

the leaf moves or not is not in your hands. "

+

and very interestingly no sincere and honest effort goes waste.

The leaf moves.

 

For more, one needs to understand " Who am I " by self enquiry......

Best wishes...

 

Sushil Jain

-------------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

This refers to Shashikalaji's observations on my previous post. With

all respects, I may point out that I wish, Shashikalaji, you had

read entire post, instead of stopping after the first sentence as

you say you did.

If asked what does " person " who is supposed to have free-will mean,

what would be the answer? For me, it means a sense of " I-me " rooted

in desires, fears, and likes/dislikes.

This sense of " I-me " becomes so strong in the absence of

questioning, " it " becomes person himself/herself. " It " (insentient)

becomes " me " , so to speak.

This " I " is the superimposed sense on Reality of Being(Is-ness as

Swamiji calls).

All actions, ordinarily, are decided/driven by desires/fears,

likes/dislike(raagas/dwesha), pleasurable/painful experiences of the

past memories. And unfortunately, the person thinks " he " is acting

as if " me-doer " is different than " his " (assumed only) desires or

fears or likes/dislikes! Isn't this strange, come to think of it? Is

there such a thing as Person with free-will, if this is his story?

It is as if he/she is programmed by such conditioning which controls

his/her entire life. Where is the freedom to act in such a

programmed person? Person itself is fictitious entity and so is the

free-will of such a person. (please see this crucial point, that

which acts is conditioning, not a person entity, then it is easy to

see no free-will in conditioning).

 

Even when he pretends to have free-will it is only out of knowns,

sum total of conditioning, karmas, called mind or ignorance-Jeeva or

subtle/causal body. Free-will is limited in scope, whereas

Freedom/Independence we are talking here, is Freedom from

conditioning/karmas, freedom even from demand for freedom. (If Shiva

wants play jeeva, who can stop?)

So even when he decides to act differently in the name of

purushartha to overpower karmas, the actions are still based on

different sets of knowns (this is the extent of his free-will). All

Knowns being limited, it cannot bring freedom that comes from taking

true stand as Atman!

Thus, as I understand, either through self-knowledge, or through

self-surrender or selfless karmas, person(doership-Karta) disappears

into Atman-Consciousness which IS all Impersonal Intelligence(not

personal intellect), divine intimation(conscience) speaks to an

apparant " person " as His instrument to act for greater good.

This is what Arjuna did.

OF course, no body can deny that result of action is what it would

be according to many variables, only one of which is this supposed

person with free-will.

 

In " karmanyevadikaraste " verse of Gita, my understanding is that

person has choice in acting only, not on the result. But the acts

that come from him/her is not necessarily from freedom, unless one

takes stand as Atman! No one can remain without doing karma(Gita)

suggests that " personal " freedom is not given because it may be in

conflict with Divine Will.

 

In another context, I can say that person has just one free-will,

and that is that he/she can choose to remain body-mind identified

individual or be Atman(by knowing/surrendering).

If he/she doesn't exercise this one freedom given to all, then that

is the last freedom he had, and he remains bound essentially!

Thus, as I understand, it is better to act as if God as Will in " me "

is acting through " me " , the instrument. THEN, all actions are going

to be Divine and can never be evil even if they seem like evil

(mahabharat war). Try this perspective, and see what happens!

Namaskar...............Pratap

 

 

JAI SITARAMJIKI. No doubt not even a leaf moves without God's will;

In a billionth of a second the whole universe, each atom, is being

destroyed and remade. When I started writing and at this moment now

I

am not the same person, just like you cannot take a second dip in the

same water of a river; it is always a new water which has come along.

I, each atom of me, has been destroyed and remade. This is how the

universe is working which gives each one of us a chance to inject our

karma, whether good or bad, but then do not forget that we have

accumulated so much of the past karma in our millions of previous

births (we are carrying a heavy load of our past karma) that that

tendency or sanskars motivate us to decide whether we act for the

good

of all, or selfishly for our own good only; and therefore we

ourselves

are the only one responsible for whatever we do or do not do. If you

pray hard enough and do NAAM JAP all the time, and surrender your

will

to God, God will help you to make only the right decisions henceforth

thus changing your destiny for the better.

 

BHAJ RE MANA SITARAM SITARAM SITARAM.

 

Sher Agrawal

 

Dear Sadaks,

Many desires are full filled in practical life and many remain

unfull filled. The root for desire is our own Prarabdha Karma. What

one desires other hates- How? Karma. The thoughts of desires arises

from within designed by Bagavan. It is we feel by Maya that

unfulfilled or fulfilled.

B.Sathyanarayan

 

How is Man independent in performing actions ?

 

It depends on our perception – our beleifs – of what is action and

what is man. Any change in matter-energy patterns perpetuated

through one's body, mind and senses is normally conceived as action.

Generally speaking, an idividual calling himself man believes to be

independent in performing several actions because he knows how he

depends on many for the actualising the same. In other words,

independence is claimed only with the dependence in the background.

 

Any action perceived is a conjugation between an individual and its

environment. The individual, the environment, as well as the medium

of interaction between the two are equal particpants in any

perceived action. I can't call any of these as even partners because

I do not think any of these are independently or collectively

capable of precipitating an action on their own. All the actions

perceived are fragments of images of the monolithic Action Supreme

as sensed by the cognitive cluster of senses the individual is

blessed with.

 

The perception is apparently in individual's hand and hence one

often utters that a man (and a woman, an animal, a plant, and

anything as such) is independent to perceive … incapable of

distingushing a perception from an action, one may try to claim an

indepednece of performing action as well. Truly speaking, even

perception examined carefully reveals the fact that so many elements

of one's system are involved even to perceive the thoughts … let

alone act upon the physical world.

 

Na hi kashchit kshanamapi jaatu tishthatyakarmakrit |

Kaaryate hyavashah karma sarvah prakritijairgunaih ||

 

Nothing in this universe is capable of negating The Action and

transcend the mode of action. Everything is optionless but to follow

the course of action dictated by the individual nature.

 

Bhayadasyaagnistapati bhayaattapati suryah |

Bhayaadindrashch vaayushcha Mrityurdhaavati panchamah ||

 

Everything, let alone perishable beings like a man, even cosmic

forces such as sun, fire, matter, death, and knowledge follow the

locus of action with absolute obedience.

 

Karma bramhodbhavam viddhi bramhaakshara samudbhavam |

Tasmaatsarvagatam bramha nityam yagnye pratishthitam ||

 

The Action is verily rooted in The Absolute being The Invariant as

such. The Absolute is inherent in everything through The Action as

such being the Invariant in all the variance that could be perceived

in this universe.

 

If it all anything is independent only The Action is independent.

Probably, man who has identified one with The Action could also be

independent in performing actions. But the difficulty here is there

is nothing left to act upon in such as state! There is no plurality

of actions in such a unified state!!

 

On the other hand, the notion of independence is stemms out of our

belief in dependence on the elements of life to conduct our own

lives. From spiritual stand point, when every element in this

universe is just participating in the action as per its own nature,

how can anything depend on anything at all? If we examine carefully,

the very notion of dependence becomes a myth. Therefore, the

imagination built upon such a myth – independence – is just an

illusion.

 

Therefore, the statement " a man is independent of performing

actions " does not make sense to me from spiritual perspective

wherein the concepts such as independence, performance, plurality of

action, etc. disperse into the oblivion once the bliefs that support

their legetimacy is rattled with absolute persistence.

 

Respects.

 

Naga Narayana

 

 

PRIOR POSTING

 

Hari Om

 

I think the following principle brought out by Vineetji must be

reconsidered by him for it defies all logics :

 

" that what happened was Paramatma's will, and that which did not

happen was our desire (which was apart from Paramatma's will) .That

is it! " All happennings are His will . Where is question of any

distinction of the type " which did not happen was our desire (which

was apart from His will) " ??? How what does not happen is our

desire? What can happen which is apart from His will ?

 

Translation from Hindi to English has not contributed to this.

 

Please clarify.

 

Principle as grasped by me from Swamiji and Gitaji is-

 

" In every doing we are independent, in any happenning, we are not

independent "

 

That is law. No happenning is capable enough to force a reaction

from us. No doing can be forced.

 

Moreover, to say that even asking the question by Sadhak Ramji

writing the answer by you is due to divine will is a faulty concept.

It snatches away capacity of human being of " karmanye

vaadhikaraste " ! God does not like us to attribute our independence

of doing karmas too to His divine will. How can He? You can't remain

without doing Karma even for a fraction of a second - this means you

are responsible for the same. God is not responsible for the same.

He only gave us independence. He is a disinterested friend. We reap

as we sow ! Even if you are totally " surrendered " soul or even if

you are " liberated " - " in doing " you have complete independence so

long you live in a human body. Just imagine, if some sadhak

stretches this concept a bit further and says " I did this deed ,

because God willed that " . That deed can be any deed - why not?

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

-

 

Dear all,

Bhagawaan has given us the intellect to discriminate what we should

do and what we should desist from doing as being not spiritually

good. He has also allowed His Maaya to have its sway on us to see if

we heed to the intellect or come under the sway of ignorance.

A spiritually oriented man does what is good or Shreyas and desists

from the pleasurable or Preyas. Here is man's independance. Also

allowing us to do what we choose to is Bhagawaan's will.

Jai Shree Krishna!

Prof ( Major ) Ramanujam

 

 

Dear Sadaks,

We know that we are single Advaitham (No you and me) as it

says " Aham Bramasmi " . You are part of Braman and have the

indipencence of thought and action. But you have NO indipendence

over death, birth, place of birth, caste, to whom born, whether in

rich or poor family, the type of Karma (cart puller, car driver,

train driver, house maid, luxurious life, handicapped, beautiful or

ugly, one time popper another face of life rich, rich becoming poor

ETC ETc). For the action and thought one does one is responsible.

Valmiki Rishi was a thief earlier until Sage Nararad told that

robbing other will yield sins that affects only him NOT to his

family members though they are enjoying the gain from theft.

Realization took place and he became Valmiki. Here one can note why

Sage Narad chose this perticular thief to impart knowledge though

there were 100 of thieves. Karma Pala of earlier birth brings Guru

to rescue.

" Karmanye vaadhikaraste, ma phaleshu kadchan " - I feel that this

means one is indipendant of performing action, but NOT indipendant

to decide the fruit of Action. Scripts say that Sri Vishnu is giver

of Karma Pala. Kans could have been killed along with other demons.

Time factor. Sank is the sound of Warning and Chakra is time factor

of Sri Vishnu. Garuda is symbol of speed as Sri Vishnu is sustainer

which is required fast enough to keep life going. Bagavan Shiva

destructor-- Buffelow is time factor (slow and steady the time and

aging takes place without one` s knowledge), small drum on HIS hand

is death knell, thrishulam takes the soul from body. Vibhuti (Sacred

ashes of Bagavan Shiva) is that one becomes ashes after death.

Many do wrong things like murdering, raping, robbing, insulting Etc.

This is because of independence given to human. Animals have no

intellect and they behave as they are. So animals do not do anything

independently (They remain silent even if they are killed and the

animal from that herd does not revenge- Like father got killed son

revenges) That is why animals raise from lower birth to human level.

So I feel that, " HUMAN IS INDEPENDENT OF ACTION BUT NOT INDEPENDENT

OF THE FRUITS OF ACTION " . " Karmanye vaadhikaraste, ma phaleshu

kadchan "

PARDON ME IF I AM WRONG

B.Sathyanarayan

 

 

PRIOR POSTING

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

In English

 

Brother Ramji, Your asking the question, and this written response

is also happening as per Paramatma's Will. By such acceptance, it

will make you contented, that what happened was Paramatma's will,

and that which did not happen was our desire (which was apart from

Paramatma's will) . That is it ! The work is done, and once again

we become engaged in meditating on that Paramatma. Ram Ram Ram

 

Vineet, Sarvottam

 

IN HINDI

Bhaiyyaa Ramji, Aapkaa prashna poochnaa aur yeh utter likhnaa bhi

usee Paramaatmaaki icchaa (sweekruti) ke anusaar ho rahaa hai. Isse

aise sweekaar karnaa aapko santushta karegaa ki jo huaa wah toh thi

Paramaatmaa ki icchaa aur jo kuch bhi nahin huaa wah thi humaari

(Paramaatmaatmaa se alag) icchaa. Bas kaam ban gayaa aur lag gaye

usi Paramaatmaa ke dhyaan mein. Ram Ram Ram.

 

Vineet, Sarvottam

 

-------------------------------

Jai Hanuman

 

Pratap Bhaiyya! Read again your first sentence ! Frankly I did not

read afterwards! There is no question of there being any doubt

whatsoever in a person " not having a free will/independence in

performing an action " ! One always has a free will there !! Come

what may !!!

 

Similarly there is no question or doubt of there " being any kind of

free will or independence in the results of an action " made by a

person - come what may !!

 

Efforts/performance is always in your hands. Results is always

beyond your hands !

 

There are subtle principles Jee - in the above laws , too !! They

appear juxtaposing but in reality they indeed are crystal clear!

 

I can also argue that the results ultimately are chosen/ determined

by the " doer " ! Come on !! That also is equally true - but in long

term and in reality ! How incomprehensible and contradictory that

reality appears ? But still true !! Truth prevails in whatever way

you see that, from whatever angle you perceive that, in whichever

position you are positioned !! Afterall it is truth !

 

Pratap Bhaiyya !! I am also aware of the fact that " karmanusarini

buddhih " ( Intellect changes as per prior deeds) - but Dear Brother,

I also know that " Purushartha " (capacity of humans to do karmas-

free will / independence ) prevails over waves of " sphuranas " (

thoughts arising due to prior deeds- Prarabdha )caused by altered

intellect due to past karmas , Jee !

 

All said and done- " Anhonee hoti nahin, honi hai so hoi " ( What is

not to 'happen' shall not, what is to 'happen' shall ) - at the same

time - in 'doing' you always remain free/independent ! That is law !!

 

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

--------------------------------

 

-------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Hari Om

 

Not a leaf " moves " is the result. Sure! It is in God's hands only.

What is stated is that " not a leaf moves " . It is not stated that " no

effort to move a leaf " is possible by a human being. Question of

free will arises in making efforts - not in results thereof. Hence

you can always make an effort to move the leaf. You are independent

in that. After you do your karma say to " move the leaf " , whether

the leaf moves or not is not in your hands.

 

As simple as that! " Karmanye vaadhikaraste, ma phaleshu kadchan " -

you are entitled to make efforts, you have no role to play in

consequential results !

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

-------------------------------

 

Priy pratap ji

you let or dont let BUT Thy will be done. thats for sure.

Raja Gurdasani

-------------------------------

namasthe all,

 

Everything happens (eacha nd every small and minute action, whatever

it may be), only with the GRACE/POWER/DIVINITY of that SUPREME

divinity.

Regards,

Bharathi

 

 

--------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

 

Man or woman is not independent in performing actions as long as one

takes oneself to be body identified person. This body identification

provides a stage to function in the world-stage for playing one's

roles to serve. Unfortunately this identification provides plateform

on which " individuality " in terms of desires, fears, likes/dislikes

constitute subtle body-mind-stuff, which takes control of his/her

life. This is what he/she calls " I " or " me " , and thus 'mineness " is

born. ( " Mineness " is born only after " me " is born first).

 

When one such a one acts, it is only this " me " , disguised as

desires/fears really act, and always attempts to protect " imagined

him/her " or what is perceived to be of his/hers.

 

So there is no independent actions out of such a one, always reacting

to situations in self-defense not knowing his true SELF-Atman-true

independence to act.

 

When one acquires the knowledge of one's true Self, through whatever

means prescribed in Gita or other Scriptures, one is aware of " me " in

its true colors just as it arises and stays away from acting to

protect it. There is a total freedom to act out of That which we

truly

are, Love, Compassion ourselves in the abscense of " me " !

 

Actions are then seen as coming from Totality of Being and not

personal.

 

Such a one can truly say " Let Thy Will be done " as Jesus said. When a

leaf moves, it is God's will through nature, and when we act, it is

God as our Will acts, whatever be the act!

 

Namaskar........

 

Pratap Bhatt

 

What we are today is the result of our past karmas. What we will

become in our next birth will be the result of our present karmas.

The

goal of every soul is to become one with God ultimately, that is for

the atma to become one with Parmatma. This is called attaining moksh

or liberation from the endless and painful cycle of birth and death.

Since everything in this world is an illusion, it is upto us to first

connect with our soul through meditation and through good karmas,

then

to attain moksh from 8.4 million births. So we do have a choice. Not

everything is pre-ordained.

 

Hari Shanker Deo

 

 

Dear Sadhaks,

It is true that nothing moves without HIS will. But Bhagavan has

created and

designed the whole creation that nothing goes missing without HIS

knowledge is

the meaning. This is very large subject to go in detail. But an

example can be

given. Human has 5 pranas, governed by 5 boothas and 5 layers Auras

(which can

be photographed by Kerlion Camara). So any smallest Thought or

action or both

are independent to humans. Every action or thought is recorded by

the one`s own

Aura resulting in cause and effect. The action done by body is

called Kayaka

Karma. Finding mistake on anything is also wrong Karma as one

forgets the Eswara

Sarvaboothanam. The thought is called Maanisha Karma. So when one

does good or

bad it is automatically rewarded. This means the actions does not go

unrewarded.

This again means that Bhagavan is under knowledge of all. So it

means that

nothing moves without HIS knowledge. One has to understand that to

come to Human

form from lower births is with HIS grace. Human is given

independence to do

Karmas. This independence (By way of intellect) to Human is given by

Bhagavan to

elevate to Divinity

B.Sathyanarayan

 

-

 

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Narayana Narayana

 

In English

 

It is said that not a leaf can move without Bhagwaan's will

(wishes), then how is man independent in performing actions?

 

Ramchandra

 

In Hindi

Bhagwan ki marji ke bina pataa bhi nahin hiltaa, phir manushya karam

karne mein kaise swatantra hai?

 

Ramchandra

 

 

 

NEW POSTING

 

Dears lots of loves and best wishes. there is no doubt that nothing

happens without the will of God. But this rule applies to a person

who has reached to that state of this understanding through self

introspection and spiritual practices. for a person of bookish

knowledge the sense of me and mine is highly dominating. therefore

it is for such men that scriptures speak of free will so that they

with the help of discrimination and practice know and establish

themselves in this firm knowledge of the doership of God in every

sphere of this cosmic drama. then these type of doubts and

questions do not disturb the sadhak.

 

C. K. Kaul

 

 

Dear Sadhak,

Not a single leaf can move without His Will, true but this is also

true that He Himself has given us (so called jeevatma) freedom

to " choose " " the way " we perform our actions.

 

Krishna says-

You have right to perform your duty, but you are not entitled to the

fruits of action. Never consider yourself to be the cause of the

results of your activities, and never be attached to not doing your

duty. Gitaji ch 2:47

 

And in Chapter 18 - He says -

If you do not act according to My direction and do not fight, then

you will be falsely directed. By your nature, you will have to be

engaged in warfare. Ch 18:59

 

Under illusion you are now declining to act according to My

direction. But, compelled by your own nature, you will act all the

same, O son of Kunti. Ch 18:60

This means if We do not choose our karma according to our dharma or

as instructed by Lord Himself then still we will perform same karma

due to our ignorant nature, and those karma will surely bind us.

 

So to me we are not " independent " in performing the actions but we

are surely independent in bringing the conscious presence in

whatever we do, means we are independent in choosing " How to "

perform the actions so the Karma(actions) become akarma (Non-

action). Gitaji ch 4:17-24 God explains what is karma/akarama and

vikarma.

 

with lots of love,

a sadhika

Sadhna Karigar

 

Hari Om

 

Oh! What a divine shape this satsanga is taking every day! My

respectful and hearty compliments to Adrien Meyers for sharing with

sadhaks genius, unbelievably lucid, and truth itself in its finest

form. There cannot be any doubt in what you have stated. Each

statement can be independently and jointly certified through the

references of Holy Gita, statements of Param Shraddheya Swamiji Shri

Ramsukhdasji Maharaj, all holy scriptures of Sanatan Dharma- I am

certain about this.

 

Yours is the finest statement which I have ever read on such a

tricky subject.

 

I bow to you in respect. I request you to consider in the interest

of all of us, to participate frequently or at least sum up the

deliberations on each question.

 

So Brother Mike ! Divine is indeed at play. !!

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

-------------------------------

 

-

PRIOR POSTING

-Shree Hari-

 

A few points have come up recently:

 

Vyasji, I too have considered for quite some time now, that there is

space for affectively an infinite number of universes within the

domain of what is referred to as existence.

 

Adrian, there are experiential insights to what is often called

reality, everything a person considers to be a fact can be cast

asunder, the very paradigm that a jiva finds to be true, through all

its existences, can suddenly be found to be of no value.

To borrow from Bede Griffiths, one finds, 'A New vision of Reality'.

Now the point is, one Lives this new reality, now if one Lives this

new reality, then one understands that this New Vision is transitory.

Thus the deeper, (for want of a better expression), 'Reality' takes

one, then the more one looks towards 'Fana' (inhalation).

In this changed vision of reality, of course one is not an object in

time. But one has to Live this reality. (Actually there is nothing

els one can

do).

Thus Adrien I agree in what you are saying, I suppose there is an

intellectual understanding, and experiential knowing, step by step,

some truly blessed souls a quantum leap.

 

Gitaji 11:

You the Primal God, the Ancient Purusha;

You are Supreme Refuge of this universe,

Knower, the One Thing to be known; Supreme Goal;

By You is the whole universe pervaded. (38)

 

The Holy Lord said:

Verily, hard indeed it is

To behold this great form of Mine

Which you have seen. Even the gods

Ever long to behold this form. (52)

 

Not by Vedic study, nor by

Austerity, nor by gifts, nor

By sacrifice can I be seen

As on this day you have seen Me. (53)

 

By single-minded devotion

I may be known in this true form,

Seen in reality, also

Entered into, Scorcher of Foes. (54)

 

With Respect and Divine Love,

 

Mike Keenor

-------------------------------

 

One cannot say one is dependent or independent. One is

interdependent.

Let me explain, in terms of relationships. One is not dependent on

one's mother

when they are in her womb but interdependent. How? Our soul is

temporarily in

her body not permanently, we do come out at birth. In the same way

our soul is

encased in this human body and we are interdependent on mother earth

for our

sustenance. Our air, food and other needs are provided by the earth.

Our

physical needs cannot be met without air, water, plants, crops which

provide us

with rice,

vegetables, and ingredients for our herbs and medicine.

 

Where does a higher force or being come into play? Can you for one

second exist on earth without air? You will physically die.

Definitely you are

not independent of the earth. Neither are you dependent on it at a

non-physical

level. This comes to the idea of a soul. You existed before you

entered your

mother's womb and you will continue to exist after you exit from

your mother

earth's womb but not the universe. How?

Something that exists does not cease to exist and something that does

not exist cannot exist. Our form may change but our essence stays.

Something from science. Energy cannot be destroyed but can change

from one form

into another. Matter is form and energy is formless.

 

Hope this has helped some.

 

Prashanth

 

PRIOR POSTING

 

Man himself is an action, his whole body/mind is action only. How

then is it possible in a universe that is One unbroken consciousness

for an apparent part to be other than interdependant?

IT IS NOT!

Man has no free will, all his actions are done by the Whole. Once it

is seen (by no-one) that there is no inner being within the form,

nobody, then all actions are seen to be just ripples arising from

the stillness of Being.

Your very question is an action of the Whole as is this reply for

there is only One.

In Love Avasa

(Adrien Meyer)

--------------------------------

You.

 

The manifestation that is called Life is an unavoidable experience

once the birth of the form has taken place. This experience in itself

is neither good nor bad, it is simply experience. Within this

experience there arises the idea that there is an experiencer of this

and the judgement of events gets then categorised as negative and

positive.

 

What is witnessing all of the experiences is something, which has no

something-ness about it, that is neutral. It is out of this

neutrality that the play of Life is manifesting. This neutrality is

witness to what takes place, including the arising of judgment, to

this one all is simply arising.

 

This one is all that there actually is, the One manifesting as the

apparent many. Right now in this very moment and in every moment

what is witnessing the play of life and all the reactions and

responses to it is this neutrality that is the source of all that

appears. It is this that is experiencing its own creation right now

as the one that you imagine yourself to be, a separate individual

being.

You are not what you imagine yourself to be, what you actually are

can never be put into the framework of the imagination for you have

no image, you are void. What you are is what IS when the activity of

the mind ceases to draw images upon what you are. You are not a

thing, you are the absence of thing-ness, you are no-thing-ness.

This that you actually are is also what all is. All form is the

manifestation of this no-thing-ness and through this manifestation

this no-thing-ness experiences Life. This is the Truth of you, this

is what is actually factually true. You are not an object of time as

you have been supposing but the subject of all objectivity.

Right now this is true of you, it has and is and always will be true

of you for Truth never changes. You are the Source itself manifesting

as all that is and experiencing your manifestation.

This cannot be attained because it is what you already are.

This is not in a becoming process for it is always utterly complete.

This cannot be reached for it is not elsewhere, neither in time nor

in space.

This cannot be experienced for as this you are the subject of all

experiences, a non-experience in yourself.

There is therefore nothing that needs to be done to get to this, it

is simply what IS. It is all that IS.

 

Right now this is the fact of what you are and whether the seeing of

this is happening or not does not in any way change the fact of what

you are.

 

The body is your creation, right now, the arising of the thoughts and

feeling that make up the play of the mind are your creation, right

now, and the manifestation of what appears to be a world 'out there'

is the reflection of this, right now.

 

All that is appearing is appearing within this presence that knows of

its appearance, this presence is what you are and as this you are

unborn, therefore undying, the eternal itself.

You go nowhere for you are the now of here, you are being, simply

Being.

 

Being this with you always, Love Avasa.

(Adrien Meyer)

 

-------------------------------

Jai Hanuman

 

I would not have given my views had I too perceived the discussion

purpose to be below as perceived by some :

 

" Purpose here is to see free-will of a person versus Total Freedom

when limitations vanish! "

 

No ! As I understood the question of Ramji (so did the questioner

himself ) - there the purpose is free will/independence of karma and

control of a human being over the same vis a vis the results meted

out by 'divine will' to him !

 

Free will has nothing to do with 'liberation' or 'freedom'

or 'emancipation'. Even liberated souls are free to do karmas and

Gita suggests karma for them. Even God does karma and so does a

bonded soul. In doing karma/efforts all human beings have free will

irrespective of their present status . In results only 'divine

will' operates irrespective of their present status !

 

Vasudevah Sarvam referred by some is a different principle

altogether. Consider the below quote made by some :

 

IF Vasudevah Sarvam is true, then we cannot be Vasudeva as

individual person with limited free-will is what I meant to share.

 

Again I must disagree with above statement Jee ! Whether you

are " individual person with limited free will " or you are an

otherwise person or you are a 'person' in whatever way you perceive

that, whether you are 'programmed' or otherwise - Vasudevah Sarvam

is still true irrespective of the above or any perceivable

distinctions of any sort. The very concept of Vasudevah Sarvam is

that " He is real as well as unreal " - 'sadsachaham Arjun " (BG 9:19).

Nothing escapes that. No distinctions or divisions impact

that ! " Sarvam " means " sarvam " !! No state however gross or subtle

it may be, however real or unreal it may be, however disllusioned or

clear it may be, however liberated or bound it may be- no state can

ever be beyond " Vasudevah " ! In any case how that state is reached

by a human, is certainly beyond the scope of this question.

 

If following statement is true then what I have stated herein above

and before is also true.

 

" Individual jeeva has no reality apart from Ishwara! "

 

Sure Truth prevails and it prevails as under :

 

Since Ishwara has free will hence Jeeva being fragment of Him, must

always have the same. If one goes deeper then he finds out that in

long run and in reality, in results ( " effect " ) too you have freedom,

because you had freedom in karma ( " cause " ). You choose the results

invariably when you choose to act. This is really deep dive. God

metes out " results' to us of our own karmas only and that of no body

else. By that yardstick- you enjoy free will both in efforts and in

results. " Freedom " is natural and automatic, our birth

right. " Bondage " is artificial and created, falsely perceived.

Beneath there is " freedom " not " limitations or bondage " ! Freedom

hence prevails everywhere in the basis/roots ! Freedom is automatic.

Freedom is programmed.

 

As simple as that Jee !

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

 

 

 

Dear Sadaks,

Sri Pratapji statement is stricking SAT. King Janaka once had a

dream that he was a begger on streets. He announced to all saints to

clarify that, " Whether he begger dreaming as a king OR whether he

king dreaming as a begger " . No one could clarify this. Then came an

eight-fold deformed saint and said to the king that both are not

Sat. This is in detail in Asthavakra Geetha which nearly means Sri

Pratabji statement.

 

One is independant to say there is NO God. But that does not mean

the statement is accepted by the listeners at large. Besides the

listeners think that he is shouting of something that has NO

meaning. So such independent statement becomes Nil value. But if

someone says GOD is benevalent. This is accepted at large, and that

independence has value.

 

B.Sathyanarayan

 

 

PRIOR POSTING

 

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

I also want to offer my appreciation for B. Sathyanarainji for

bringing timely messages of all Great Realized Sages.

One such sage is Ramana Maharshi, spiritual giant! His Quote is

relevant in this context of independence/free-will satsang!

" There is neither creation, nor destruction, Neither Destiny, nor

Free-will; Neither path, nor acheivement; This is the final truth! "

And is consistent with Gita's teaching between the lines!

Namaskar...........Pratap Bhatt

--

Independent will action etc is more wishful thinking, your actions

are governed by you brain biochemistry and that by your genes.

independence in action is something which has to be gained through

realisation of the self. it is a right to be earned as buddhahood,

anyway think about it as a model.

Ravi Bakhsi

 

 

Hari Om

 

Very right you are Dear Mike .You are not only right but accurate

and 'divine' too ! I will tell you how! I doubt if you had with you

Swamiji's Sadhak Sanjeevani when you wrote your last note. You used

the words 'atomic particles' , 'supreme intelligence' and 'divine

will' while reflecting upon BG 10:42! Even Swamiji in his purport to

the same verse explained using the same theme ! That is satsanga.

That is wave length to which one gets tuned in Satsanga ! That is

how 'divine' pervades the universe.

 

Swamiji said in His purport that in one part/fragment/particle of

God entire universe is held. Inspite of there being uncountable and

endless universes existing in His that small particle still that is

not full, there is still space for endless more universes. Just as-

a very small part of nature is our 'intelligence' , but inspite of

there being knowledge of many languages, syllables, arts etc we

can't say that there is no space left now more knowledge, more

languages, more syllables etc in the 'intelligence'. There is always

space left in the intellect for more knowledge. When a small part of

nature can be so limitless and still spacious, then how limitless

shall be the 'supreme divine intelligence' , the small particle of

God Himself who is 'beyond' nature, supreme, transcendental,

endless, limitless, and bottomless Himself. There in that 'supreme

divine intelligence' , space for more universes is specially vacant.

That fragment is still empty.

 

Note also Brother that till BG 10:41, Paramatma was answering

Arjuna's specific questions. Here in 18:42, Krishna Himself of His

own accord and. ' divine will ' is telling Arjuna that once you

look at Me , nothing will remain to be looked at. Why Arjuna should

any more be interested in knowing more 'vibhutis' of Him? Here

Krishna is giving the 'essence/juice/nectar " of an answer to

Arjuna's question- after giving detailed reply to his question upto

18:41 !

 

By the way the following is translation of BG 18:42 in Swamiji's

Sadhak Sanjeevani treatise on BG:

 

Link: Having answered Arjuna's question, in the next verse, the Lord

Himself reveals an important fact.

 

" Or what need is there, for you O Arjuna, of detailed knowledge? I

stand supporting the entire universe, with a single fragment, of

Myself "

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

 

 

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

I respect views expressed here on " my " (?) observations on Free-

will/Independence/Freedom. As I take it, this satsang is about

sharing our understanding by putting it on the table what we have

understood, to be examined by us all. I don't insist on saying this

is the only truth! Or we may be saying same thing in our different

words!

As I see, Understanding/Truth alone acts, not an individual!

I had similar observations about person having free-will,

independence, choice.

I was led to think deeply what lies behind those words we use

everyday.

As a limited body-mind identified person, we have limited free-will,

which is different than Freedom I(?) am referring to here. Freedom

is Total freedom from bondage of a false sense of " me " , the person.

Limited free-will is not a free-will as I understand. To be able to

do whatever we like is not a freedom we are talking about here, I

suppose. Choices may suggest confusion versus clarity. Clarity comes

from Totality! Some can say limited free-will is still free-will, I

don't.

Purpose here is to see free-will of a person versus Total Freedom

when limitations vanish!

" Person " is perceived object and is limited as such, while " we " are

All Perceiving Consciousness, Impersonal!

Sure, there is first and foremost, and always available free-will or

freedom to Realize we are not such a limited person afterall! If not

exercised, obviously we continue to live from limitations of pairs

of opposites, makeup of " a person " . As a matter of fact, we are

never ever " bound " ! If we are not free, we remain as if programmed

entity, always choosing what we think is good for " us " regardless of

so called " others " .

We are not doomed to remain as such as interpreted by some. To see

the falsehood and step out of such a " person(limitations) " to take

true stand as Atman is the purpose of Human life.

IF Vasudevah Sarvam is true, then we cannot be Vasudeva as

individual person with limited free-will is what I meant to share.

Swamiji says " All are ONE, and ONE is all " . Even when I act as

seemingly individual, only God or total intelligence acts! I have to

knowingly act as such!

We only have right over actions, but independence in acting is

limited, if remain limited!

To me, as Jesus says, Will is always God's Will, never " mine " ,

because there is no " I " , the individual except in ignorance, or

dream from which we need to wake up!

Individual jeeva has no reality apart from Ishwara! If Jeeva is

enlightened, Jeevahood is merged in Ishwara. In Yagna of True

knowledge, Devotion, and Selfless karmas, individuality is the

sacred offering!

Namaskar............Pratap Bhatt

 

 

 

-------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

-Shree Hari-

 

Vyasji I am so glad that you mentioned B Sathyanarainji, I always

read his comments to the best of my abilities, and realise there is

wise council in his revelations. Even though we may be at the oposite

ends of the divine rainbow, we are linked by this sacred Satsang.

Sathyanarainji you have my greatest respect, I bow to you.

 

Paramatma is; in all down to the smallest sub atomic particle,(and

beyond that), in 'The Supreme', is, as it were the 'Supreme

Intelligence', the 'Divine Will' holds all in existence.

If a leaf trembles in the wind, it is free to do so, if a person does

good or bad he/she is free to do so,(not withstanding Karma).

Remember good, bad, are opposites that exist in the illusion of

duality.

 

In Gitaji 10:

Of what value is it for you

To know all this, O Arjuna?

I ever support this whole world

By just one portion of Myself. (42)

 

To me B.G. 10 as a whole is worth a read I believe when dealing with

this subject.

 

With Respect and Divine Love,

 

Mike Keenor

-------------------------------

 

Jai Shri Krishna,

 

Pratapji may please note that ONLY in human life a person has

privilege of " Free will " . Human life is adored by Scriptures because

of that only. Use your " conscience " , change your path ! If human

life is " programmed " then what makes this life superior to animals

or Devatas? Is God that cruel ? God or Shiva referred by you did not

make the players in this Lila - dependent/helpless ! In order

to " play " , a " player " must have independence!

 

You have free will / independence always, at all times in human

life, upto the last breath. Human life is the greatest form of life-

undoubtedly ! If in this life, one presumes that one

is " programmed " - then in which life he will get " unprogrammed " ?

 

Narayan Narayan

Rajendra J Bohra

 

 

 

Jai Hanuman

 

Ok Pratap Bhaiyya ! Now I have read it fully Jee ! Twice, Jee !! But

what is the theme ? Why did you lose independence? Why did you get

bound? Why other person is not as accurately and precisely bound by

the same " programmed action " ? Who fell into the well of desires,

me/mine notion? How? Exercise of " free will " , misutilisation

thereof !!

 

I quote you only here Pratapji :

 

" All actions, ordinarily, are decided/driven by desires/fears,

likes/dislike(raagas/dwesha), pleasurable/painful experiences of the

past memories. "

 

Now tell me - desires/fears/likes/dislikes of whom? Could you not

have chosen to be otherwise? Yes !! Can't you even today choose not

to be swayed by them? Yes !!

 

You have free will even when you are completely in " bondage " state.

Else how a sinner most person like Valmiki/Angulimaal became

Dharmatma? What is sanctity of Gita 9:31? Free will !! Correct

choice !! That choice is action !!

 

Let us Read again what you wrote:

 

" And unfortunately, the person thinks " he " is acting

as if " me-doer " is different than " his " (assumed only) desires or

fears or likes/dislikes! Isn't this strange, come to think of it? Is

there such a thing as Person with free-will, if this is his story? "

 

Is thinking or not thinking that " me/doer " is different or same or

whatever, not arising out of " free will " ? Do not you have

choice/option there ?? Tell me categorically what prevents you from

applying conscience and changing your perception? Free will is still

there with you! Bondage lies in mind only. Change the mind ! Who

prevents?

 

There after you stated :

 

" It is as if he/she is programmed by such conditioning which controls

his/her entire life. Where is the freedom to act in such a

programmed person? Person itself is fictitious entity and so is the

free-will of such a person.

 

Funny argument, isn't it- Pratap Bhaiyya ? Why did he fall into that

shape at first place? Misutilisation of free will ! Has he/she

referred by you become optionless now? No ! No !! If he/she is

programmed, doesn't that mean he/she can't realise God, or change

for better? Gone for ever ! Worse than even an animal ! No, it can't

be so ! Rather it is certainly not so !!

 

Is every human being is exactly what is described here ? No! No !!

Difference in degree/intensity/circumstances/positioning/ etc

between two individuals is due to what ? Exercise of that free

will !!

 

Your statements convert great human birth into a slave birth,

programmed by God as punishment !! Wrong! Wrong !

 

You went on to state :

 

In another context, I can say that person has just one free-will,

and that is that he/she can choose to remain body-mind identified

individual or be Atman(by knowing/surrendering).

If he/she doesn't exercise this one freedom given to all, then that

is the last freedom he had, and he remains bound essentially!

 

So in stroke, you concluded that " this one is the last freedom he

had and he remains bound essentially " !! Very Good Jee ! Now where

is need for Saints and Sages/Gitaji? Where is any scope left for

him/her to make amends? Free will destroyed for ever!! He/she is

gone for ever, Jee !! Isn't it? Now there are no options

available !! Human birth got wasted long back! Now cry and live as a

puppet! Animals then become far better than humans !!

 

Isn't that the conclusion? No I don't agree with you, once again ,

Pratap Bhaiyya ! You have " free will " alive in you at all times, in

all places, in all circumstances, so long as you are in human

body !! Even in most " bondaged state " - you have " free will " in you-

ready for use !! You can make amends anytime during the course of

human life ! Come On , Pratap Bhaiyya !! Human birth is sought even

by Demi Gods! Why ? Free Will available at all times, Jee ! Isn't

it ??

 

Please also note Pratap Bhaiyya- Both Karma Yoga and Jnana Yoga are

only practiced by a human being by remaining identified with

body/mind etc. Realisation comes later on. Free will remains always-

at the beginning, in the middle and in the end. Human life is " karma

yoni " ! There is a provision of conversion of " karmas "

into " akarmas " ( Karma yoga) not cessation of karmas. There is

provision of " assuming non doership " (Jnana Yoga) not cessation of

doing. There is provision of surrendering/offerring whatever you do

to God ( Bhakti Yoga- " yatkaroshi " BG 9:26) and not " na-karoshi " -

not doing. " Not doing " is impossible in human birth.

However, " Assumptions " / " Acceptances " of all sorts viz " I am

doer " , " I am not doer " , " I am of God " , " I am of world " etc are

possible. Those assumptions are examples again of FREE WILL

available to Self.

 

Hope you are crystal clear now.

 

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

--------------------------------

 

 

------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

 

Hari Om

 

One can't cease to admire the talent accumulated in this GT Group.

Indeed it is a divine group. How humble are real Satsangis !! One

such humble Satsangi is B Sathyanarainji. In every posting of him,

you will find history, names and references of great souls !! He

invariably remembers realised souls, great characters of past, great

events stated in our Holy Scriptures !.

 

No Sir. You can never be wrong !

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

-------------------------------

 

The following may kindly be added to the response given by Sadak

Vyas N B

 

" After you do your karma say to " move the leaf " , whether

the leaf moves or not is not in your hands. "

+

and very interestingly no sincere and honest effort goes waste.

The leaf moves.

 

For more, one needs to understand " Who am I " by self enquiry......

Best wishes...

 

Sushil Jain

-------------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

This refers to Shashikalaji's observations on my previous post. With

all respects, I may point out that I wish, Shashikalaji, you had

read entire post, instead of stopping after the first sentence as

you say you did.

If asked what does " person " who is supposed to have free-will mean,

what would be the answer? For me, it means a sense of " I-me " rooted

in desires, fears, and likes/dislikes.

This sense of " I-me " becomes so strong in the absence of

questioning, " it " becomes person himself/herself. " It " (insentient)

becomes " me " , so to speak.

This " I " is the superimposed sense on Reality of Being(Is-ness as

Swamiji calls).

All actions, ordinarily, are decided/driven by desires/fears,

likes/dislike(raagas/dwesha), pleasurable/painful experiences of the

past memories. And unfortunately, the person thinks " he " is acting

as if " me-doer " is different than " his " (assumed only) desires or

fears or likes/dislikes! Isn't this strange, come to think of it? Is

there such a thing as Person with free-will, if this is his story?

It is as if he/she is programmed by such conditioning which controls

his/her entire life. Where is the freedom to act in such a

programmed person? Person itself is fictitious entity and so is the

free-will of such a person. (please see this crucial point, that

which acts is conditioning, not a person entity, then it is easy to

see no free-will in conditioning).

 

Even when he pretends to have free-will it is only out of knowns,

sum total of conditioning, karmas, called mind or ignorance-Jeeva or

subtle/causal body. Free-will is limited in scope, whereas

Freedom/Independence we are talking here, is Freedom from

conditioning/karmas, freedom even from demand for freedom. (If Shiva

wants play jeeva, who can stop?)

So even when he decides to act differently in the name of

purushartha to overpower karmas, the actions are still based on

different sets of knowns (this is the extent of his free-will). All

Knowns being limited, it cannot bring freedom that comes from taking

true stand as Atman!

Thus, as I understand, either through self-knowledge, or through

self-surrender or selfless karmas, person(doership-Karta) disappears

into Atman-Consciousness which IS all Impersonal Intelligence(not

personal intellect), divine intimation(conscience) speaks to an

apparant " person " as His instrument to act for greater good.

This is what Arjuna did.

OF course, no body can deny that result of action is what it would

be according to many variables, only one of which is this supposed

person with free-will.

 

In " karmanyevadikaraste " verse of Gita, my understanding is that

person has choice in acting only, not on the result. But the acts

that come from him/her is not necessarily from freedom, unless one

takes stand as Atman! No one can remain without doing karma(Gita)

suggests that " personal " freedom is not given because it may be in

conflict with Divine Will.

 

In another context, I can say that person has just one free-will,

and that is that he/she can choose to remain body-mind identified

individual or be Atman(by knowing/surrendering).

If he/she doesn't exercise this one freedom given to all, then that

is the last freedom he had, and he remains bound essentially!

Thus, as I understand, it is better to act as if God as Will in " me "

is acting through " me " , the instrument. THEN, all actions are going

to be Divine and can never be evil even if they seem like evil

(mahabharat war). Try this perspective, and see what happens!

Namaskar...............Pratap

 

 

JAI SITARAMJIKI. No doubt not even a leaf moves without God's will;

In a billionth of a second the whole universe, each atom, is being

destroyed and remade. When I started writing and at this moment now

I

am not the same person, just like you cannot take a second dip in the

same water of a river; it is always a new water which has come along.

I, each atom of me, has been destroyed and remade. This is how the

universe is working which gives each one of us a chance to inject our

karma, whether good or bad, but then do not forget that we have

accumulated so much of the past karma in our millions of previous

births (we are carrying a heavy load of our past karma) that that

tendency or sanskars motivate us to decide whether we act for the

good

of all, or selfishly for our own good only; and therefore we

ourselves

are the only one responsible for whatever we do or do not do. If you

pray hard enough and do NAAM JAP all the time, and surrender your

will

to God, God will help you to make only the right decisions henceforth

thus changing your destiny for the better.

 

BHAJ RE MANA SITARAM SITARAM SITARAM.

 

Sher Agrawal

 

Dear Sadaks,

Many desires are full filled in practical life and many remain

unfull filled. The root for desire is our own Prarabdha Karma. What

one desires other hates- How? Karma. The thoughts of desires arises

from within designed by Bagavan. It is we feel by Maya that

unfulfilled or fulfilled.

B.Sathyanarayan

 

How is Man independent in performing actions ?

 

It depends on our perception – our beleifs – of what is action and

what is man. Any change in matter-energy patterns perpetuated

through one's body, mind and senses is normally conceived as action.

Generally speaking, an idividual calling himself man believes to be

independent in performing several actions because he knows how he

depends on many for the actualising the same. In other words,

independence is claimed only with the dependence in the background.

 

Any action perceived is a conjugation between an individual and its

environment. The individual, the environment, as well as the medium

of interaction between the two are equal particpants in any

perceived action. I can't call any of these as even partners because

I do not think any of these are independently or collectively

capable of precipitating an action on their own. All the actions

perceived are fragments of images of the monolithic Action Supreme

as sensed by the cognitive cluster of senses the individual is

blessed with.

 

The perception is apparently in individual's hand and hence one

often utters that a man (and a woman, an animal, a plant, and

anything as such) is independent to perceive … incapable of

distingushing a perception from an action, one may try to claim an

indepednece of performing action as well. Truly speaking, even

perception examined carefully reveals the fact that so many elements

of one's system are involved even to perceive the thoughts … let

alone act upon the physical world.

 

Na hi kashchit kshanamapi jaatu tishthatyakarmakrit |

Kaaryate hyavashah karma sarvah prakritijairgunaih ||

 

Nothing in this universe is capable of negating The Action and

transcend the mode of action. Everything is optionless but to follow

the course of action dictated by the individual nature.

 

Bhayadasyaagnistapati bhayaattapati suryah |

Bhayaadindrashch vaayushcha Mrityurdhaavati panchamah ||

 

Everything, let alone perishable beings like a man, even cosmic

forces such as sun, fire, matter, death, and knowledge follow the

locus of action with absolute obedience.

 

Karma bramhodbhavam viddhi bramhaakshara samudbhavam |

Tasmaatsarvagatam bramha nityam yagnye pratishthitam ||

 

The Action is verily rooted in The Absolute being The Invariant as

such. The Absolute is inherent in everything through The Action as

such being the Invariant in all the variance that could be perceived

in this universe.

 

If it all anything is independent only The Action is independent.

Probably, man who has identified one with The Action could also be

independent in performing actions. But the difficulty here is there

is nothing left to act upon in such as state! There is no plurality

of actions in such a unified state!!

 

On the other hand, the notion of independence is stemms out of our

belief in dependence on the elements of life to conduct our own

lives. From spiritual stand point, when every element in this

universe is just participating in the action as per its own nature,

how can anything depend on anything at all? If we examine carefully,

the very notion of dependence becomes a myth. Therefore, the

imagination built upon such a myth – independence – is just an

illusion.

 

Therefore, the statement " a man is independent of performing

actions " does not make sense to me from spiritual perspective

wherein the concepts such as independence, performance, plurality of

action, etc. disperse into the oblivion once the bliefs that support

their legetimacy is rattled with absolute persistence.

 

Respects.

 

Naga Narayana

 

 

PRIOR POSTING

 

Hari Om

 

I think the following principle brought out by Vineetji must be

reconsidered by him for it defies all logics :

 

" that what happened was Paramatma's will, and that which did not

happen was our desire (which was apart from Paramatma's will) .That

is it! " All happennings are His will . Where is question of any

distinction of the type " which did not happen was our desire (which

was apart from His will) " ??? How what does not happen is our

desire? What can happen which is apart from His will ?

 

Translation from Hindi to English has not contributed to this.

 

Please clarify.

 

Principle as grasped by me from Swamiji and Gitaji is-

 

" In every doing we are independent, in any happenning, we are not

independent "

 

That is law. No happenning is capable enough to force a reaction

from us. No doing can be forced.

 

Moreover, to say that even asking the question by Sadhak Ramji

writing the answer by you is due to divine will is a faulty concept.

It snatches away capacity of human being of " karmanye

vaadhikaraste " ! God does not like us to attribute our independence

of doing karmas too to His divine will. How can He? You can't remain

without doing Karma even for a fraction of a second - this means you

are responsible for the same. God is not responsible for the same.

He only gave us independence. He is a disinterested friend. We reap

as we sow ! Even if you are totally " surrendered " soul or even if

you are " liberated " - " in doing " you have complete independence so

long you live in a human body. Just imagine, if some sadhak

stretches this concept a bit further and says " I did this deed ,

because God willed that " . That deed can be any deed - why not?

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

-

 

Dear all,

Bhagawaan has given us the intellect to discriminate what we should

do and what we should desist from doing as being not spiritually

good. He has also allowed His Maaya to have its sway on us to see if

we heed to the intellect or come under the sway of ignorance.

A spiritually oriented man does what is good or Shreyas and desists

from the pleasurable or Preyas. Here is man's independance. Also

allowing us to do what we choose to is Bhagawaan's will.

Jai Shree Krishna!

Prof ( Major ) Ramanujam

 

 

Dear Sadaks,

We know that we are single Advaitham (No you and me) as it

says " Aham Bramasmi " . You are part of Braman and have the

indipencence of thought and action. But you have NO indipendence

over death, birth, place of birth, caste, to whom born, whether in

rich or poor family, the type of Karma (cart puller, car driver,

train driver, house maid, luxurious life, handicapped, beautiful or

ugly, one time popper another face of life rich, rich becoming poor

ETC ETc). For the action and thought one does one is responsible.

Valmiki Rishi was a thief earlier until Sage Nararad told that

robbing other will yield sins that affects only him NOT to his

family members though they are enjoying the gain from theft.

Realization took place and he became Valmiki. Here one can note why

Sage Narad chose this perticular thief to impart knowledge though

there were 100 of thieves. Karma Pala of earlier birth brings Guru

to rescue.

" Karmanye vaadhikaraste, ma phaleshu kadchan " - I feel that this

means one is indipendant of performing action, but NOT indipendant

to decide the fruit of Action. Scripts say that Sri Vishnu is giver

of Karma Pala. Kans could have been killed along with other demons.

Time factor. Sank is the sound of Warning and Chakra is time factor

of Sri Vishnu. Garuda is symbol of speed as Sri Vishnu is sustainer

which is required fast enough to keep life going. Bagavan Shiva

destructor-- Buffelow is time factor (slow and steady the time and

aging takes place without one` s knowledge), small drum on HIS hand

is death knell, thrishulam takes the soul from body. Vibhuti (Sacred

ashes of Bagavan Shiva) is that one becomes ashes after death.

Many do wrong things like murdering, raping, robbing, insulting Etc.

This is because of independence given to human. Animals have no

intellect and they behave as they are. So animals do not do anything

independently (They remain silent even if they are killed and the

animal from that herd does not revenge- Like father got killed son

revenges) That is why animals raise from lower birth to human level.

So I feel that, " HUMAN IS INDEPENDENT OF ACTION BUT NOT INDEPENDENT

OF THE FRUITS OF ACTION " . " Karmanye vaadhikaraste, ma phaleshu

kadchan "

PARDON ME IF I AM WRONG

B.Sathyanarayan

 

 

PRIOR POSTING

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

In English

 

Brother Ramji, Your asking the question, and this written response

is also happening as per Paramatma's Will. By such acceptance, it

will make you contented, that what happened was Paramatma's will,

and that which did not happen was our desire (which was apart from

Paramatma's will) . That is it ! The work is done, and once again

we become engaged in meditating on that Paramatma. Ram Ram Ram

 

Vineet, Sarvottam

 

IN HINDI

Bhaiyyaa Ramji, Aapkaa prashna poochnaa aur yeh utter likhnaa bhi

usee Paramaatmaaki icchaa (sweekruti) ke anusaar ho rahaa hai. Isse

aise sweekaar karnaa aapko santushta karegaa ki jo huaa wah toh thi

Paramaatmaa ki icchaa aur jo kuch bhi nahin huaa wah thi humaari

(Paramaatmaatmaa se alag) icchaa. Bas kaam ban gayaa aur lag gaye

usi Paramaatmaa ke dhyaan mein. Ram Ram Ram.

 

Vineet, Sarvottam

 

-------------------------------

Jai Hanuman

 

Pratap Bhaiyya! Read again your first sentence ! Frankly I did not

read afterwards! There is no question of there being any doubt

whatsoever in a person " not having a free will/independence in

performing an action " ! One always has a free will there !! Come

what may !!!

 

Similarly there is no question or doubt of there " being any kind of

free will or independence in the results of an action " made by a

person - come what may !!

 

Efforts/performance is always in your hands. Results is always

beyond your hands !

 

There are subtle principles Jee - in the above laws , too !! They

appear juxtaposing but in reality they indeed are crystal clear!

 

I can also argue that the results ultimately are chosen/ determined

by the " doer " ! Come on !! That also is equally true - but in long

term and in reality ! How incomprehensible and contradictory that

reality appears ? But still true !! Truth prevails in whatever way

you see that, from whatever angle you perceive that, in whichever

position you are positioned !! Afterall it is truth !

 

Pratap Bhaiyya !! I am also aware of the fact that " karmanusarini

buddhih " ( Intellect changes as per prior deeds) - but Dear Brother,

I also know that " Purushartha " (capacity of humans to do karmas-

free will / independence ) prevails over waves of " sphuranas " (

thoughts arising due to prior deeds- Prarabdha )caused by altered

intellect due to past karmas , Jee !

 

All said and done- " Anhonee hoti nahin, honi hai so hoi " ( What is

not to 'happen' shall not, what is to 'happen' shall ) - at the same

time - in 'doing' you always remain free/independent ! That is law !!

 

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

--------------------------------

 

-------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Hari Om

 

Not a leaf " moves " is the result. Sure! It is in God's hands only.

What is stated is that " not a leaf moves " . It is not stated that " no

effort to move a leaf " is possible by a human being. Question of

free will arises in making efforts - not in results thereof. Hence

you can always make an effort to move the leaf. You are independent

in that. After you do your karma say to " move the leaf " , whether

the leaf moves or not is not in your hands.

 

As simple as that! " Karmanye vaadhikaraste, ma phaleshu kadchan " -

you are entitled to make efforts, you have no role to play in

consequential results !

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

-------------------------------

 

Priy pratap ji

you let or dont let BUT Thy will be done. thats for sure.

Raja Gurdasani

-------------------------------

namasthe all,

 

Everything happens (eacha nd every small and minute action, whatever

it may be), only with the GRACE/POWER/DIVINITY of that SUPREME

divinity.

Regards,

Bharathi

 

 

--------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

 

Man or woman is not independent in performing actions as long as one

takes oneself to be body identified person. This body identification

provides a stage to function in the world-stage for playing one's

roles to serve. Unfortunately this identification provides plateform

on which " individuality " in terms of desires, fears, likes/dislikes

constitute subtle body-mind-stuff, which takes control of his/her

life. This is what he/she calls " I " or " me " , and thus 'mineness " is

born. ( " Mineness " is born only after " me " is born first).

 

When one such a one acts, it is only this " me " , disguised as

desires/fears really act, and always attempts to protect " imagined

him/her " or what is perceived to be of his/hers.

 

So there is no independent actions out of such a one, always reacting

to situations in self-defense not knowing his true SELF-Atman-true

independence to act.

 

When one acquires the knowledge of one's true Self, through whatever

means prescribed in Gita or other Scriptures, one is aware of " me " in

its true colors just as it arises and stays away from acting to

protect it. There is a total freedom to act out of That which we

truly

are, Love, Compassion ourselves in the abscense of " me " !

 

Actions are then seen as coming from Totality of Being and not

personal.

 

Such a one can truly say " Let Thy Will be done " as Jesus said. When a

leaf moves, it is God's will through nature, and when we act, it is

God as our Will acts, whatever be the act!

 

Namaskar........

 

Pratap Bhatt

 

What we are today is the result of our past karmas. What we will

become in our next birth will be the result of our present karmas.

The

goal of every soul is to become one with God ultimately, that is for

the atma to become one with Parmatma. This is called attaining moksh

or liberation from the endless and painful cycle of birth and death.

Since everything in this world is an illusion, it is upto us to first

connect with our soul through meditation and through good karmas,

then

to attain moksh from 8.4 million births. So we do have a choice. Not

everything is pre-ordained.

 

Hari Shanker Deo

 

 

Dear Sadhaks,

It is true that nothing moves without HIS will. But Bhagavan has

created and

designed the whole creation that nothing goes missing without HIS

knowledge is

the meaning. This is very large subject to go in detail. But an

example can be

given. Human has 5 pranas, governed by 5 boothas and 5 layers Auras

(which can

be photographed by Kerlion Camara). So any smallest Thought or

action or both

are independent to humans. Every action or thought is recorded by

the one`s own

Aura resulting in cause and effect. The action done by body is

called Kayaka

Karma. Finding mistake on anything is also wrong Karma as one

forgets the Eswara

Sarvaboothanam. The thought is called Maanisha Karma. So when one

does good or

bad it is automatically rewarded. This means the actions does not go

unrewarded.

This again means that Bhagavan is under knowledge of all. So it

means that

nothing moves without HIS knowledge. One has to understand that to

come to Human

form from lower births is with HIS grace. Human is given

independence to do

Karmas. This independence (By way of intellect) to Human is given by

Bhagavan to

elevate to Divinity

B.Sathyanarayan

 

-

 

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Narayana Narayana

 

In English

 

It is said that not a leaf can move without Bhagwaan's will

(wishes), then how is man independent in performing actions?

 

Ramchandra

 

In Hindi

Bhagwan ki marji ke bina pataa bhi nahin hiltaa, phir manushya karam

karne mein kaise swatantra hai?

 

Ramchandra

 

 

 

NEW POSTING

 

 

Hare Krishna

 

Dear Avasaji,

 

Whatever you have said I was not able to understand because of my

layman English. Can you or someone else please explain it? After

reading Sir Vyasji's comments I am curious to know what you have

written.

 

Please forgive me for asking you to make extra effort.

 

Thanks,

 

Varun P. Paprunia

 

Dear Sadhaks,

 

We can use knife to cut fruit or to cut ourselves. Choice is our.

This is where we are independent. After Arjuna hearing Geetha

temporarly dependent. But at time when Abhimanyu died, he wanted to

kill himself in fire. On the last day after war When Arjuna was

asked to get down from chariot first, Arjuna questions Bhagavan Why.

Faith on Bhagavan or BG momentarily lost. Duryodana was Independent,

lost whole family. Pandavas were dependent on Sri Krishna, whole

family saved. We can learn to use this knife called Buddhi to cut 6

Bad Gunas, depending on Bagavan, (No independance). When Manas and

Budhi merges, one`s face turns to glory (Saanidyam) where smile (Not

laughter) can be seen always as Bhagavan seats within one.

 

Independence are being used by so many Duryodhnas of Today. But

discarding independence, curtailing sensual pleasures, avoiding to

worldliness, depending on Satsang, Guru and ultimately on Bagavan,

gives us permanent Independence of liberating from again being born

to this earth (Karma boomi).

Jai Sri Krishna

 

baiya sathyanarayan

 

 

PRIOR POSTING

Dears lots of loves and best wishes. there is no doubt that nothing

happens without the will of God. But this rule applies to a person

who has reached to that state of this understanding through self

introspection and spiritual practices. for a person of bookish

knowledge the sense of me and mine is highly dominating. therefore

it is for such men that scriptures speak of free will so that they

with the help of discrimination and practice know and establish

themselves in this firm knowledge of the doership of God in every

sphere of this cosmic drama. then these type of doubts and

questions do not disturb the sadhak.

 

C. K. Kaul

 

 

Dear Sadhak,

Not a single leaf can move without His Will, true but this is also

true that He Himself has given us (so called jeevatma) freedom

to " choose " " the way " we perform our actions.

 

Krishna says-

You have right to perform your duty, but you are not entitled to the

fruits of action. Never consider yourself to be the cause of the

results of your activities, and never be attached to not doing your

duty. Gitaji ch 2:47

 

And in Chapter 18 - He says -

If you do not act according to My direction and do not fight, then

you will be falsely directed. By your nature, you will have to be

engaged in warfare. Ch 18:59

 

Under illusion you are now declining to act according to My

direction. But, compelled by your own nature, you will act all the

same, O son of Kunti. Ch 18:60

This means if We do not choose our karma according to our dharma or

as instructed by Lord Himself then still we will perform same karma

due to our ignorant nature, and those karma will surely bind us.

 

So to me we are not " independent " in performing the actions but we

are surely independent in bringing the conscious presence in

whatever we do, means we are independent in choosing " How to "

perform the actions so the Karma(actions) become akarma (Non-

action). Gitaji ch 4:17-24 God explains what is karma/akarama and

vikarma.

 

with lots of love,

a sadhika

Sadhna Karigar

 

Hari Om

 

Oh! What a divine shape this satsanga is taking every day! My

respectful and hearty compliments to Adrien Meyers for sharing with

sadhaks genius, unbelievably lucid, and truth itself in its finest

form. There cannot be any doubt in what you have stated. Each

statement can be independently and jointly certified through the

references of Holy Gita, statements of Param Shraddheya Swamiji Shri

Ramsukhdasji Maharaj, all holy scriptures of Sanatan Dharma- I am

certain about this.

 

Yours is the finest statement which I have ever read on such a

tricky subject.

 

I bow to you in respect. I request you to consider in the interest

of all of us, to participate frequently or at least sum up the

deliberations on each question.

 

So Brother Mike ! Divine is indeed at play. !!

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

-------------------------------

 

-

PRIOR POSTING

-Shree Hari-

 

A few points have come up recently:

 

Vyasji, I too have considered for quite some time now, that there is

space for affectively an infinite number of universes within the

domain of what is referred to as existence.

 

Adrian, there are experiential insights to what is often called

reality, everything a person considers to be a fact can be cast

asunder, the very paradigm that a jiva finds to be true, through all

its existences, can suddenly be found to be of no value.

To borrow from Bede Griffiths, one finds, 'A New vision of Reality'.

Now the point is, one Lives this new reality, now if one Lives this

new reality, then one understands that this New Vision is transitory.

Thus the deeper, (for want of a better expression), 'Reality' takes

one, then the more one looks towards 'Fana' (inhalation).

In this changed vision of reality, of course one is not an object in

time. But one has to Live this reality. (Actually there is nothing

els one can

do).

Thus Adrien I agree in what you are saying, I suppose there is an

intellectual understanding, and experiential knowing, step by step,

some truly blessed souls a quantum leap.

 

Gitaji 11:

You the Primal God, the Ancient Purusha;

You are Supreme Refuge of this universe,

Knower, the One Thing to be known; Supreme Goal;

By You is the whole universe pervaded. (38)

 

The Holy Lord said:

Verily, hard indeed it is

To behold this great form of Mine

Which you have seen. Even the gods

Ever long to behold this form. (52)

 

Not by Vedic study, nor by

Austerity, nor by gifts, nor

By sacrifice can I be seen

As on this day you have seen Me. (53)

 

By single-minded devotion

I may be known in this true form,

Seen in reality, also

Entered into, Scorcher of Foes. (54)

 

With Respect and Divine Love,

 

Mike Keenor

-------------------------------

 

One cannot say one is dependent or independent. One is

interdependent.

Let me explain, in terms of relationships. One is not dependent on

one's mother

when they are in her womb but interdependent. How? Our soul is

temporarily in

her body not permanently, we do come out at birth. In the same way

our soul is

encased in this human body and we are interdependent on mother earth

for our

sustenance. Our air, food and other needs are provided by the earth.

Our

physical needs cannot be met without air, water, plants, crops which

provide us

with rice,

vegetables, and ingredients for our herbs and medicine.

 

Where does a higher force or being come into play? Can you for one

second exist on earth without air? You will physically die.

Definitely you are

not independent of the earth. Neither are you dependent on it at a

non-physical

level. This comes to the idea of a soul. You existed before you

entered your

mother's womb and you will continue to exist after you exit from

your mother

earth's womb but not the universe. How?

Something that exists does not cease to exist and something that does

not exist cannot exist. Our form may change but our essence stays.

Something from science. Energy cannot be destroyed but can change

from one form

into another. Matter is form and energy is formless.

 

Hope this has helped some.

 

Prashanth

 

PRIOR POSTING

 

Man himself is an action, his whole body/mind is action only. How

then is it possible in a universe that is One unbroken consciousness

for an apparent part to be other than interdependant?

IT IS NOT!

Man has no free will, all his actions are done by the Whole. Once it

is seen (by no-one) that there is no inner being within the form,

nobody, then all actions are seen to be just ripples arising from

the stillness of Being.

Your very question is an action of the Whole as is this reply for

there is only One.

In Love Avasa

(Adrien Meyer)

--------------------------------

You.

 

The manifestation that is called Life is an unavoidable experience

once the birth of the form has taken place. This experience in itself

is neither good nor bad, it is simply experience. Within this

experience there arises the idea that there is an experiencer of this

and the judgement of events gets then categorised as negative and

positive.

 

What is witnessing all of the experiences is something, which has no

something-ness about it, that is neutral. It is out of this

neutrality that the play of Life is manifesting. This neutrality is

witness to what takes place, including the arising of judgment, to

this one all is simply arising.

 

This one is all that there actually is, the One manifesting as the

apparent many. Right now in this very moment and in every moment

what is witnessing the play of life and all the reactions and

responses to it is this neutrality that is the source of all that

appears. It is this that is experiencing its own creation right now

as the one that you imagine yourself to be, a separate individual

being.

You are not what you imagine yourself to be, what you actually are

can never be put into the framework of the imagination for you have

no image, you are void. What you are is what IS when the activity of

the mind ceases to draw images upon what you are. You are not a

thing, you are the absence of thing-ness, you are no-thing-ness.

This that you actually are is also what all is. All form is the

manifestation of this no-thing-ness and through this manifestation

this no-thing-ness experiences Life. This is the Truth of you, this

is what is actually factually true. You are not an object of time as

you have been supposing but the subject of all objectivity.

Right now this is true of you, it has and is and always will be true

of you for Truth never changes. You are the Source itself manifesting

as all that is and experiencing your manifestation.

This cannot be attained because it is what you already are.

This is not in a becoming process for it is always utterly complete.

This cannot be reached for it is not elsewhere, neither in time nor

in space.

This cannot be experienced for as this you are the subject of all

experiences, a non-experience in yourself.

There is therefore nothing that needs to be done to get to this, it

is simply what IS. It is all that IS.

 

Right now this is the fact of what you are and whether the seeing of

this is happening or not does not in any way change the fact of what

you are.

 

The body is your creation, right now, the arising of the thoughts and

feeling that make up the play of the mind are your creation, right

now, and the manifestation of what appears to be a world 'out there'

is the reflection of this, right now.

 

All that is appearing is appearing within this presence that knows of

its appearance, this presence is what you are and as this you are

unborn, therefore undying, the eternal itself.

You go nowhere for you are the now of here, you are being, simply

Being.

 

Being this with you always, Love Avasa.

(Adrien Meyer)

 

-------------------------------

Jai Hanuman

 

I would not have given my views had I too perceived the discussion

purpose to be below as perceived by some :

 

" Purpose here is to see free-will of a person versus Total Freedom

when limitations vanish! "

 

No ! As I understood the question of Ramji (so did the questioner

himself ) - there the purpose is free will/independence of karma and

control of a human being over the same vis a vis the results meted

out by 'divine will' to him !

 

Free will has nothing to do with 'liberation' or 'freedom'

or 'emancipation'. Even liberated souls are free to do karmas and

Gita suggests karma for them. Even God does karma and so does a

bonded soul. In doing karma/efforts all human beings have free will

irrespective of their present status . In results only 'divine

will' operates irrespective of their present status !

 

Vasudevah Sarvam referred by some is a different principle

altogether. Consider the below quote made by some :

 

IF Vasudevah Sarvam is true, then we cannot be Vasudeva as

individual person with limited free-will is what I meant to share.

 

Again I must disagree with above statement Jee ! Whether you

are " individual person with limited free will " or you are an

otherwise person or you are a 'person' in whatever way you perceive

that, whether you are 'programmed' or otherwise - Vasudevah Sarvam

is still true irrespective of the above or any perceivable

distinctions of any sort. The very concept of Vasudevah Sarvam is

that " He is real as well as unreal " - 'sadsachaham Arjun " (BG 9:19).

Nothing escapes that. No distinctions or divisions impact

that ! " Sarvam " means " sarvam " !! No state however gross or subtle

it may be, however real or unreal it may be, however disllusioned or

clear it may be, however liberated or bound it may be- no state can

ever be beyond " Vasudevah " ! In any case how that state is reached

by a human, is certainly beyond the scope of this question.

 

If following statement is true then what I have stated herein above

and before is also true.

 

" Individual jeeva has no reality apart from Ishwara! "

 

Sure Truth prevails and it prevails as under :

 

Since Ishwara has free will hence Jeeva being fragment of Him, must

always have the same. If one goes deeper then he finds out that in

long run and in reality, in results ( " effect " ) too you have freedom,

because you had freedom in karma ( " cause " ). You choose the results

invariably when you choose to act. This is really deep dive. God

metes out " results' to us of our own karmas only and that of no body

else. By that yardstick- you enjoy free will both in efforts and in

results. " Freedom " is natural and automatic, our birth

right. " Bondage " is artificial and created, falsely perceived.

Beneath there is " freedom " not " limitations or bondage " ! Freedom

hence prevails everywhere in the basis/roots ! Freedom is automatic.

Freedom is programmed.

 

As simple as that Jee !

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

 

 

 

Dear Sadaks,

Sri Pratapji statement is stricking SAT. King Janaka once had a

dream that he was a begger on streets. He announced to all saints to

clarify that, " Whether he begger dreaming as a king OR whether he

king dreaming as a begger " . No one could clarify this. Then came an

eight-fold deformed saint and said to the king that both are not

Sat. This is in detail in Asthavakra Geetha which nearly means Sri

Pratabji statement.

 

One is independant to say there is NO God. But that does not mean

the statement is accepted by the listeners at large. Besides the

listeners think that he is shouting of something that has NO

meaning. So such independent statement becomes Nil value. But if

someone says GOD is benevalent. This is accepted at large, and that

independence has value.

 

B.Sathyanarayan

 

 

PRIOR POSTING

 

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

I also want to offer my appreciation for B. Sathyanarainji for

bringing timely messages of all Great Realized Sages.

One such sage is Ramana Maharshi, spiritual giant! His Quote is

relevant in this context of independence/free-will satsang!

" There is neither creation, nor destruction, Neither Destiny, nor

Free-will; Neither path, nor acheivement; This is the final truth! "

And is consistent with Gita's teaching between the lines!

Namaskar...........Pratap Bhatt

--

Independent will action etc is more wishful thinking, your actions

are governed by you brain biochemistry and that by your genes.

independence in action is something which has to be gained through

realisation of the self. it is a right to be earned as buddhahood,

anyway think about it as a model.

Ravi Bakhsi

 

 

Hari Om

 

Very right you are Dear Mike .You are not only right but accurate

and 'divine' too ! I will tell you how! I doubt if you had with you

Swamiji's Sadhak Sanjeevani when you wrote your last note. You used

the words 'atomic particles' , 'supreme intelligence' and 'divine

will' while reflecting upon BG 10:42! Even Swamiji in his purport to

the same verse explained using the same theme ! That is satsanga.

That is wave length to which one gets tuned in Satsanga ! That is

how 'divine' pervades the universe.

 

Swamiji said in His purport that in one part/fragment/particle of

God entire universe is held. Inspite of there being uncountable and

endless universes existing in His that small particle still that is

not full, there is still space for endless more universes. Just as-

a very small part of nature is our 'intelligence' , but inspite of

there being knowledge of many languages, syllables, arts etc we

can't say that there is no space left now more knowledge, more

languages, more syllables etc in the 'intelligence'. There is always

space left in the intellect for more knowledge. When a small part of

nature can be so limitless and still spacious, then how limitless

shall be the 'supreme divine intelligence' , the small particle of

God Himself who is 'beyond' nature, supreme, transcendental,

endless, limitless, and bottomless Himself. There in that 'supreme

divine intelligence' , space for more universes is specially vacant.

That fragment is still empty.

 

Note also Brother that till BG 10:41, Paramatma was answering

Arjuna's specific questions. Here in 18:42, Krishna Himself of His

own accord and. ' divine will ' is telling Arjuna that once you

look at Me , nothing will remain to be looked at. Why Arjuna should

any more be interested in knowing more 'vibhutis' of Him? Here

Krishna is giving the 'essence/juice/nectar " of an answer to

Arjuna's question- after giving detailed reply to his question upto

18:41 !

 

By the way the following is translation of BG 18:42 in Swamiji's

Sadhak Sanjeevani treatise on BG:

 

Link: Having answered Arjuna's question, in the next verse, the Lord

Himself reveals an important fact.

 

" Or what need is there, for you O Arjuna, of detailed knowledge? I

stand supporting the entire universe, with a single fragment, of

Myself "

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

 

 

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

I respect views expressed here on " my " (?) observations on Free-

will/Independence/Freedom. As I take it, this satsang is about

sharing our understanding by putting it on the table what we have

understood, to be examined by us all. I don't insist on saying this

is the only truth! Or we may be saying same thing in our different

words!

As I see, Understanding/Truth alone acts, not an individual!

I had similar observations about person having free-will,

independence, choice.

I was led to think deeply what lies behind those words we use

everyday.

As a limited body-mind identified person, we have limited free-will,

which is different than Freedom I(?) am referring to here. Freedom

is Total freedom from bondage of a false sense of " me " , the person.

Limited free-will is not a free-will as I understand. To be able to

do whatever we like is not a freedom we are talking about here, I

suppose. Choices may suggest confusion versus clarity. Clarity comes

from Totality! Some can say limited free-will is still free-will, I

don't.

Purpose here is to see free-will of a person versus Total Freedom

when limitations vanish!

" Person " is perceived object and is limited as such, while " we " are

All Perceiving Consciousness, Impersonal!

Sure, there is first and foremost, and always available free-will or

freedom to Realize we are not such a limited person afterall! If not

exercised, obviously we continue to live from limitations of pairs

of opposites, makeup of " a person " . As a matter of fact, we are

never ever " bound " ! If we are not free, we remain as if programmed

entity, always choosing what we think is good for " us " regardless of

so called " others " .

We are not doomed to remain as such as interpreted by some. To see

the falsehood and step out of such a " person(limitations) " to take

true stand as Atman is the purpose of Human life.

IF Vasudevah Sarvam is true, then we cannot be Vasudeva as

individual person with limited free-will is what I meant to share.

Swamiji says " All are ONE, and ONE is all " . Even when I act as

seemingly individual, only God or total intelligence acts! I have to

knowingly act as such!

We only have right over actions, but independence in acting is

limited, if remain limited!

To me, as Jesus says, Will is always God's Will, never " mine " ,

because there is no " I " , the individual except in ignorance, or

dream from which we need to wake up!

Individual jeeva has no reality apart from Ishwara! If Jeeva is

enlightened, Jeevahood is merged in Ishwara. In Yagna of True

knowledge, Devotion, and Selfless karmas, individuality is the

sacred offering!

Namaskar............Pratap Bhatt

 

 

 

-------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

-Shree Hari-

 

Vyasji I am so glad that you mentioned B Sathyanarainji, I always

read his comments to the best of my abilities, and realise there is

wise council in his revelations. Even though we may be at the oposite

ends of the divine rainbow, we are linked by this sacred Satsang.

Sathyanarainji you have my greatest respect, I bow to you.

 

Paramatma is; in all down to the smallest sub atomic particle,(and

beyond that), in 'The Supreme', is, as it were the 'Supreme

Intelligence', the 'Divine Will' holds all in existence.

If a leaf trembles in the wind, it is free to do so, if a person does

good or bad he/she is free to do so,(not withstanding Karma).

Remember good, bad, are opposites that exist in the illusion of

duality.

 

In Gitaji 10:

Of what value is it for you

To know all this, O Arjuna?

I ever support this whole world

By just one portion of Myself. (42)

 

To me B.G. 10 as a whole is worth a read I believe when dealing with

this subject.

 

With Respect and Divine Love,

 

Mike Keenor

-------------------------------

 

Jai Shri Krishna,

 

Pratapji may please note that ONLY in human life a person has

privilege of " Free will " . Human life is adored by Scriptures because

of that only. Use your " conscience " , change your path ! If human

life is " programmed " then what makes this life superior to animals

or Devatas? Is God that cruel ? God or Shiva referred by you did not

make the players in this Lila - dependent/helpless ! In order

to " play " , a " player " must have independence!

 

You have free will / independence always, at all times in human

life, upto the last breath. Human life is the greatest form of life-

undoubtedly ! If in this life, one presumes that one

is " programmed " - then in which life he will get " unprogrammed " ?

 

Narayan Narayan

Rajendra J Bohra

 

 

 

Jai Hanuman

 

Ok Pratap Bhaiyya ! Now I have read it fully Jee ! Twice, Jee !! But

what is the theme ? Why did you lose independence? Why did you get

bound? Why other person is not as accurately and precisely bound by

the same " programmed action " ? Who fell into the well of desires,

me/mine notion? How? Exercise of " free will " , misutilisation

thereof !!

 

I quote you only here Pratapji :

 

" All actions, ordinarily, are decided/driven by desires/fears,

likes/dislike(raagas/dwesha), pleasurable/painful experiences of the

past memories. "

 

Now tell me - desires/fears/likes/dislikes of whom? Could you not

have chosen to be otherwise? Yes !! Can't you even today choose not

to be swayed by them? Yes !!

 

You have free will even when you are completely in " bondage " state.

Else how a sinner most person like Valmiki/Angulimaal became

Dharmatma? What is sanctity of Gita 9:31? Free will !! Correct

choice !! That choice is action !!

 

Let us Read again what you wrote:

 

" And unfortunately, the person thinks " he " is acting

as if " me-doer " is different than " his " (assumed only) desires or

fears or likes/dislikes! Isn't this strange, come to think of it? Is

there such a thing as Person with free-will, if this is his story? "

 

Is thinking or not thinking that " me/doer " is different or same or

whatever, not arising out of " free will " ? Do not you have

choice/option there ?? Tell me categorically what prevents you from

applying conscience and changing your perception? Free will is still

there with you! Bondage lies in mind only. Change the mind ! Who

prevents?

 

There after you stated :

 

" It is as if he/she is programmed by such conditioning which controls

his/her entire life. Where is the freedom to act in such a

programmed person? Person itself is fictitious entity and so is the

free-will of such a person.

 

Funny argument, isn't it- Pratap Bhaiyya ? Why did he fall into that

shape at first place? Misutilisation of free will ! Has he/she

referred by you become optionless now? No ! No !! If he/she is

programmed, doesn't that mean he/she can't realise God, or change

for better? Gone for ever ! Worse than even an animal ! No, it can't

be so ! Rather it is certainly not so !!

 

Is every human being is exactly what is described here ? No! No !!

Difference in degree/intensity/circumstances/positioning/ etc

between two individuals is due to what ? Exercise of that free

will !!

 

Your statements convert great human birth into a slave birth,

programmed by God as punishment !! Wrong! Wrong !

 

You went on to state :

 

In another context, I can say that person has just one free-will,

and that is that he/she can choose to remain body-mind identified

individual or be Atman(by knowing/surrendering).

If he/she doesn't exercise this one freedom given to all, then that

is the last freedom he had, and he remains bound essentially!

 

So in stroke, you concluded that " this one is the last freedom he

had and he remains bound essentially " !! Very Good Jee ! Now where

is need for Saints and Sages/Gitaji? Where is any scope left for

him/her to make amends? Free will destroyed for ever!! He/she is

gone for ever, Jee !! Isn't it? Now there are no options

available !! Human birth got wasted long back! Now cry and live as a

puppet! Animals then become far better than humans !!

 

Isn't that the conclusion? No I don't agree with you, once again ,

Pratap Bhaiyya ! You have " free will " alive in you at all times, in

all places, in all circumstances, so long as you are in human

body !! Even in most " bondaged state " - you have " free will " in you-

ready for use !! You can make amends anytime during the course of

human life ! Come On , Pratap Bhaiyya !! Human birth is sought even

by Demi Gods! Why ? Free Will available at all times, Jee ! Isn't

it ??

 

Please also note Pratap Bhaiyya- Both Karma Yoga and Jnana Yoga are

only practiced by a human being by remaining identified with

body/mind etc. Realisation comes later on. Free will remains always-

at the beginning, in the middle and in the end. Human life is " karma

yoni " ! There is a provision of conversion of " karmas "

into " akarmas " ( Karma yoga) not cessation of karmas. There is

provision of " assuming non doership " (Jnana Yoga) not cessation of

doing. There is provision of surrendering/offerring whatever you do

to God ( Bhakti Yoga- " yatkaroshi " BG 9:26) and not " na-karoshi " -

not doing. " Not doing " is impossible in human birth.

However, " Assumptions " / " Acceptances " of all sorts viz " I am

doer " , " I am not doer " , " I am of God " , " I am of world " etc are

possible. Those assumptions are examples again of FREE WILL

available to Self.

 

Hope you are crystal clear now.

 

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

--------------------------------

 

 

------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

 

Hari Om

 

One can't cease to admire the talent accumulated in this GT Group.

Indeed it is a divine group. How humble are real Satsangis !! One

such humble Satsangi is B Sathyanarainji. In every posting of him,

you will find history, names and references of great souls !! He

invariably remembers realised souls, great characters of past, great

events stated in our Holy Scriptures !.

 

No Sir. You can never be wrong !

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

-------------------------------

 

The following may kindly be added to the response given by Sadak

Vyas N B

 

" After you do your karma say to " move the leaf " , whether

the leaf moves or not is not in your hands. "

+

and very interestingly no sincere and honest effort goes waste.

The leaf moves.

 

For more, one needs to understand " Who am I " by self enquiry......

Best wishes...

 

Sushil Jain

-------------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

This refers to Shashikalaji's observations on my previous post. With

all respects, I may point out that I wish, Shashikalaji, you had

read entire post, instead of stopping after the first sentence as

you say you did.

If asked what does " person " who is supposed to have free-will mean,

what would be the answer? For me, it means a sense of " I-me " rooted

in desires, fears, and likes/dislikes.

This sense of " I-me " becomes so strong in the absence of

questioning, " it " becomes person himself/herself. " It " (insentient)

becomes " me " , so to speak.

This " I " is the superimposed sense on Reality of Being(Is-ness as

Swamiji calls).

All actions, ordinarily, are decided/driven by desires/fears,

likes/dislike(raagas/dwesha), pleasurable/painful experiences of the

past memories. And unfortunately, the person thinks " he " is acting

as if " me-doer " is different than " his " (assumed only) desires or

fears or likes/dislikes! Isn't this strange, come to think of it? Is

there such a thing as Person with free-will, if this is his story?

It is as if he/she is programmed by such conditioning which controls

his/her entire life. Where is the freedom to act in such a

programmed person? Person itself is fictitious entity and so is the

free-will of such a person. (please see this crucial point, that

which acts is conditioning, not a person entity, then it is easy to

see no free-will in conditioning).

 

Even when he pretends to have free-will it is only out of knowns,

sum total of conditioning, karmas, called mind or ignorance-Jeeva or

subtle/causal body. Free-will is limited in scope, whereas

Freedom/Independence we are talking here, is Freedom from

conditioning/karmas, freedom even from demand for freedom. (If Shiva

wants play jeeva, who can stop?)

So even when he decides to act differently in the name of

purushartha to overpower karmas, the actions are still based on

different sets of knowns (this is the extent of his free-will). All

Knowns being limited, it cannot bring freedom that comes from taking

true stand as Atman!

Thus, as I understand, either through self-knowledge, or through

self-surrender or selfless karmas, person(doership-Karta) disappears

into Atman-Consciousness which IS all Impersonal Intelligence(not

personal intellect), divine intimation(conscience) speaks to an

apparant " person " as His instrument to act for greater good.

This is what Arjuna did.

OF course, no body can deny that result of action is what it would

be according to many variables, only one of which is this supposed

person with free-will.

 

In " karmanyevadikaraste " verse of Gita, my understanding is that

person has choice in acting only, not on the result. But the acts

that come from him/her is not necessarily from freedom, unless one

takes stand as Atman! No one can remain without doing karma(Gita)

suggests that " personal " freedom is not given because it may be in

conflict with Divine Will.

 

In another context, I can say that person has just one free-will,

and that is that he/she can choose to remain body-mind identified

individual or be Atman(by knowing/surrendering).

If he/she doesn't exercise this one freedom given to all, then that

is the last freedom he had, and he remains bound essentially!

Thus, as I understand, it is better to act as if God as Will in " me "

is acting through " me " , the instrument. THEN, all actions are going

to be Divine and can never be evil even if they seem like evil

(mahabharat war). Try this perspective, and see what happens!

Namaskar...............Pratap

 

 

JAI SITARAMJIKI. No doubt not even a leaf moves without God's will;

In a billionth of a second the whole universe, each atom, is being

destroyed and remade. When I started writing and at this moment now

I

am not the same person, just like you cannot take a second dip in the

same water of a river; it is always a new water which has come along.

I, each atom of me, has been destroyed and remade. This is how the

universe is working which gives each one of us a chance to inject our

karma, whether good or bad, but then do not forget that we have

accumulated so much of the past karma in our millions of previous

births (we are carrying a heavy load of our past karma) that that

tendency or sanskars motivate us to decide whether we act for the

good

of all, or selfishly for our own good only; and therefore we

ourselves

are the only one responsible for whatever we do or do not do. If you

pray hard enough and do NAAM JAP all the time, and surrender your

will

to God, God will help you to make only the right decisions henceforth

thus changing your destiny for the better.

 

BHAJ RE MANA SITARAM SITARAM SITARAM.

 

Sher Agrawal

 

Dear Sadaks,

Many desires are full filled in practical life and many remain

unfull filled. The root for desire is our own Prarabdha Karma. What

one desires other hates- How? Karma. The thoughts of desires arises

from within designed by Bagavan. It is we feel by Maya that

unfulfilled or fulfilled.

B.Sathyanarayan

 

How is Man independent in performing actions ?

 

It depends on our perception – our beleifs – of what is action and

what is man. Any change in matter-energy patterns perpetuated

through one's body, mind and senses is normally conceived as action.

Generally speaking, an idividual calling himself man believes to be

independent in performing several actions because he knows how he

depends on many for the actualising the same. In other words,

independence is claimed only with the dependence in the background.

 

Any action perceived is a conjugation between an individual and its

environment. The individual, the environment, as well as the medium

of interaction between the two are equal particpants in any

perceived action. I can't call any of these as even partners because

I do not think any of these are independently or collectively

capable of precipitating an action on their own. All the actions

perceived are fragments of images of the monolithic Action Supreme

as sensed by the cognitive cluster of senses the individual is

blessed with.

 

The perception is apparently in individual's hand and hence one

often utters that a man (and a woman, an animal, a plant, and

anything as such) is independent to perceive … incapable of

distingushing a perception from an action, one may try to claim an

indepednece of performing action as well. Truly speaking, even

perception examined carefully reveals the fact that so many elements

of one's system are involved even to perceive the thoughts … let

alone act upon the physical world.

 

Na hi kashchit kshanamapi jaatu tishthatyakarmakrit |

Kaaryate hyavashah karma sarvah prakritijairgunaih ||

 

Nothing in this universe is capable of negating The Action and

transcend the mode of action. Everything is optionless but to follow

the course of action dictated by the individual nature.

 

Bhayadasyaagnistapati bhayaattapati suryah |

Bhayaadindrashch vaayushcha Mrityurdhaavati panchamah ||

 

Everything, let alone perishable beings like a man, even cosmic

forces such as sun, fire, matter, death, and knowledge follow the

locus of action with absolute obedience.

 

Karma bramhodbhavam viddhi bramhaakshara samudbhavam |

Tasmaatsarvagatam bramha nityam yagnye pratishthitam ||

 

The Action is verily rooted in The Absolute being The Invariant as

such. The Absolute is inherent in everything through The Action as

such being the Invariant in all the variance that could be perceived

in this universe.

 

If it all anything is independent only The Action is independent.

Probably, man who has identified one with The Action could also be

independent in performing actions. But the difficulty here is there

is nothing left to act upon in such as state! There is no plurality

of actions in such a unified state!!

 

On the other hand, the notion of independence is stemms out of our

belief in dependence on the elements of life to conduct our own

lives. From spiritual stand point, when every element in this

universe is just participating in the action as per its own nature,

how can anything depend on anything at all? If we examine carefully,

the very notion of dependence becomes a myth. Therefore, the

imagination built upon such a myth – independence – is just an

illusion.

 

Therefore, the statement " a man is independent of performing

actions " does not make sense to me from spiritual perspective

wherein the concepts such as independence, performance, plurality of

action, etc. disperse into the oblivion once the bliefs that support

their legetimacy is rattled with absolute persistence.

 

Respects.

 

Naga Narayana

 

 

PRIOR POSTING

 

Hari Om

 

I think the following principle brought out by Vineetji must be

reconsidered by him for it defies all logics :

 

" that what happened was Paramatma's will, and that which did not

happen was our desire (which was apart from Paramatma's will) .That

is it! " All happennings are His will . Where is question of any

distinction of the type " which did not happen was our desire (which

was apart from His will) " ??? How what does not happen is our

desire? What can happen which is apart from His will ?

 

Translation from Hindi to English has not contributed to this.

 

Please clarify.

 

Principle as grasped by me from Swamiji and Gitaji is-

 

" In every doing we are independent, in any happenning, we are not

independent "

 

That is law. No happenning is capable enough to force a reaction

from us. No doing can be forced.

 

Moreover, to say that even asking the question by Sadhak Ramji

writing the answer by you is due to divine will is a faulty concept.

It snatches away capacity of human being of " karmanye

vaadhikaraste " ! God does not like us to attribute our independence

of doing karmas too to His divine will. How can He? You can't remain

without doing Karma even for a fraction of a second - this means you

are responsible for the same. God is not responsible for the same.

He only gave us independence. He is a disinterested friend. We reap

as we sow ! Even if you are totally " surrendered " soul or even if

you are " liberated " - " in doing " you have complete independence so

long you live in a human body. Just imagine, if some sadhak

stretches this concept a bit further and says " I did this deed ,

because God willed that " . That deed can be any deed - why not?

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

-

 

Dear all,

Bhagawaan has given us the intellect to discriminate what we should

do and what we should desist from doing as being not spiritually

good. He has also allowed His Maaya to have its sway on us to see if

we heed to the intellect or come under the sway of ignorance.

A spiritually oriented man does what is good or Shreyas and desists

from the pleasurable or Preyas. Here is man's independance. Also

allowing us to do what we choose to is Bhagawaan's will.

Jai Shree Krishna!

Prof ( Major ) Ramanujam

 

 

Dear Sadaks,

We know that we are single Advaitham (No you and me) as it

says " Aham Bramasmi " . You are part of Braman and have the

indipencence of thought and action. But you have NO indipendence

over death, birth, place of birth, caste, to whom born, whether in

rich or poor family, the type of Karma (cart puller, car driver,

train driver, house maid, luxurious life, handicapped, beautiful or

ugly, one time popper another face of life rich, rich becoming poor

ETC ETc). For the action and thought one does one is responsible.

Valmiki Rishi was a thief earlier until Sage Nararad told that

robbing other will yield sins that affects only him NOT to his

family members though they are enjoying the gain from theft.

Realization took place and he became Valmiki. Here one can note why

Sage Narad chose this perticular thief to impart knowledge though

there were 100 of thieves. Karma Pala of earlier birth brings Guru

to rescue.

" Karmanye vaadhikaraste, ma phaleshu kadchan " - I feel that this

means one is indipendant of performing action, but NOT indipendant

to decide the fruit of Action. Scripts say that Sri Vishnu is giver

of Karma Pala. Kans could have been killed along with other demons.

Time factor. Sank is the sound of Warning and Chakra is time factor

of Sri Vishnu. Garuda is symbol of speed as Sri Vishnu is sustainer

which is required fast enough to keep life going. Bagavan Shiva

destructor-- Buffelow is time factor (slow and steady the time and

aging takes place without one` s knowledge), small drum on HIS hand

is death knell, thrishulam takes the soul from body. Vibhuti (Sacred

ashes of Bagavan Shiva) is that one becomes ashes after death.

Many do wrong things like murdering, raping, robbing, insulting Etc.

This is because of independence given to human. Animals have no

intellect and they behave as they are. So animals do not do anything

independently (They remain silent even if they are killed and the

animal from that herd does not revenge- Like father got killed son

revenges) That is why animals raise from lower birth to human level.

So I feel that, " HUMAN IS INDEPENDENT OF ACTION BUT NOT INDEPENDENT

OF THE FRUITS OF ACTION " . " Karmanye vaadhikaraste, ma phaleshu

kadchan "

PARDON ME IF I AM WRONG

B.Sathyanarayan

 

 

PRIOR POSTING

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

In English

 

Brother Ramji, Your asking the question, and this written response

is also happening as per Paramatma's Will. By such acceptance, it

will make you contented, that what happened was Paramatma's will,

and that which did not happen was our desire (which was apart from

Paramatma's will) . That is it ! The work is done, and once again

we become engaged in meditating on that Paramatma. Ram Ram Ram

 

Vineet, Sarvottam

 

IN HINDI

Bhaiyyaa Ramji, Aapkaa prashna poochnaa aur yeh utter likhnaa bhi

usee Paramaatmaaki icchaa (sweekruti) ke anusaar ho rahaa hai. Isse

aise sweekaar karnaa aapko santushta karegaa ki jo huaa wah toh thi

Paramaatmaa ki icchaa aur jo kuch bhi nahin huaa wah thi humaari

(Paramaatmaatmaa se alag) icchaa. Bas kaam ban gayaa aur lag gaye

usi Paramaatmaa ke dhyaan mein. Ram Ram Ram.

 

Vineet, Sarvottam

 

-------------------------------

Jai Hanuman

 

Pratap Bhaiyya! Read again your first sentence ! Frankly I did not

read afterwards! There is no question of there being any doubt

whatsoever in a person " not having a free will/independence in

performing an action " ! One always has a free will there !! Come

what may !!!

 

Similarly there is no question or doubt of there " being any kind of

free will or independence in the results of an action " made by a

person - come what may !!

 

Efforts/performance is always in your hands. Results is always

beyond your hands !

 

There are subtle principles Jee - in the above laws , too !! They

appear juxtaposing but in reality they indeed are crystal clear!

 

I can also argue that the results ultimately are chosen/ determined

by the " doer " ! Come on !! That also is equally true - but in long

term and in reality ! How incomprehensible and contradictory that

reality appears ? But still true !! Truth prevails in whatever way

you see that, from whatever angle you perceive that, in whichever

position you are positioned !! Afterall it is truth !

 

Pratap Bhaiyya !! I am also aware of the fact that " karmanusarini

buddhih " ( Intellect changes as per prior deeds) - but Dear Brother,

I also know that " Purushartha " (capacity of humans to do karmas-

free will / independence ) prevails over waves of " sphuranas " (

thoughts arising due to prior deeds- Prarabdha )caused by altered

intellect due to past karmas , Jee !

 

All said and done- " Anhonee hoti nahin, honi hai so hoi " ( What is

not to 'happen' shall not, what is to 'happen' shall ) - at the same

time - in 'doing' you always remain free/independent ! That is law !!

 

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

--------------------------------

 

-------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Hari Om

 

Not a leaf " moves " is the result. Sure! It is in God's hands only.

What is stated is that " not a leaf moves " . It is not stated that " no

effort to move a leaf " is possible by a human being. Question of

free will arises in making efforts - not in results thereof. Hence

you can always make an effort to move the leaf. You are independent

in that. After you do your karma say to " move the leaf " , whether

the leaf moves or not is not in your hands.

 

As simple as that! " Karmanye vaadhikaraste, ma phaleshu kadchan " -

you are entitled to make efforts, you have no role to play in

consequential results !

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

-------------------------------

 

Priy pratap ji

you let or dont let BUT Thy will be done. thats for sure.

Raja Gurdasani

-------------------------------

namasthe all,

 

Everything happens (eacha nd every small and minute action, whatever

it may be), only with the GRACE/POWER/DIVINITY of that SUPREME

divinity.

Regards,

Bharathi

 

 

--------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

 

Man or woman is not independent in performing actions as long as one

takes oneself to be body identified person. This body identification

provides a stage to function in the world-stage for playing one's

roles to serve. Unfortunately this identification provides plateform

on which " individuality " in terms of desires, fears, likes/dislikes

constitute subtle body-mind-stuff, which takes control of his/her

life. This is what he/she calls " I " or " me " , and thus 'mineness " is

born. ( " Mineness " is born only after " me " is born first).

 

When one such a one acts, it is only this " me " , disguised as

desires/fears really act, and always attempts to protect " imagined

him/her " or what is perceived to be of his/hers.

 

So there is no independent actions out of such a one, always reacting

to situations in self-defense not knowing his true SELF-Atman-true

independence to act.

 

When one acquires the knowledge of one's true Self, through whatever

means prescribed in Gita or other Scriptures, one is aware of " me " in

its true colors just as it arises and stays away from acting to

protect it. There is a total freedom to act out of That which we

truly

are, Love, Compassion ourselves in the abscense of " me " !

 

Actions are then seen as coming from Totality of Being and not

personal.

 

Such a one can truly say " Let Thy Will be done " as Jesus said. When a

leaf moves, it is God's will through nature, and when we act, it is

God as our Will acts, whatever be the act!

 

Namaskar........

 

Pratap Bhatt

 

What we are today is the result of our past karmas. What we will

become in our next birth will be the result of our present karmas.

The

goal of every soul is to become one with God ultimately, that is for

the atma to become one with Parmatma. This is called attaining moksh

or liberation from the endless and painful cycle of birth and death.

Since everything in this world is an illusion, it is upto us to first

connect with our soul through meditation and through good karmas,

then

to attain moksh from 8.4 million births. So we do have a choice. Not

everything is pre-ordained.

 

Hari Shanker Deo

 

 

Dear Sadhaks,

It is true that nothing moves without HIS will. But Bhagavan has

created and

designed the whole creation that nothing goes missing without HIS

knowledge is

the meaning. This is very large subject to go in detail. But an

example can be

given. Human has 5 pranas, governed by 5 boothas and 5 layers Auras

(which can

be photographed by Kerlion Camara). So any smallest Thought or

action or both

are independent to humans. Every action or thought is recorded by

the one`s own

Aura resulting in cause and effect. The action done by body is

called Kayaka

Karma. Finding mistake on anything is also wrong Karma as one

forgets the Eswara

Sarvaboothanam. The thought is called Maanisha Karma. So when one

does good or

bad it is automatically rewarded. This means the actions does not go

unrewarded.

This again means that Bhagavan is under knowledge of all. So it

means that

nothing moves without HIS knowledge. One has to understand that to

come to Human

form from lower births is with HIS grace. Human is given

independence to do

Karmas. This independence (By way of intellect) to Human is given by

Bhagavan to

elevate to Divinity

B.Sathyanarayan

 

-

 

GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES:

1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify their doubts

related to Gitaji shalokas. Therefore, responses which further

clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be posted.

2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to

substantiate your response.

3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the

extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas

4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting

sadhaka's time.

5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only.

6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other

organizations.

7. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone

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8. Please do not address the response to a particular individual

since the message is going to the entire group.

9. Due to the large readership, all responses may not be posted.

10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if content

is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the group.

11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth,

westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use to Sanskrit

words only, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit bracketed

wherever possible.

 

MODERATOR

Ram Ram

------------------------

 

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