Guest guest Posted November 10, 2008 Report Share Posted November 10, 2008 Respected Sirs, I am hindu, a senior citizen, vegetarian and a non-violent loving person. Mahatma Gandhi was the staunchest of non-violent human beings. Though every one, violent and non violent alike would like peace prevail in this world VIOLENCE is happening in this world, knowingly or unknowingly. My question is - Why Hindu Gods are depicted to be showing violence (killing or anihilating evil physically)? eg: Lord Krishna Kills Kamsa, Goddess Durga Kills Pandasura and other Asuras, Lord Shiva Kills Kameswar, Lord Rama Kills Ravana and Bali. Lords of other religions do not appear to follow these paths, no matter the extent of the sufferings one has to undergo. Jesus suffered all along, though he too was believed to have had super natural powers. Kindly enlighten me, in the circumstances, why Hindu Gods loose patience and resort to violent killings to eliminate evil? I have to answer my son who debates with me often. Pranams ! Iyer GA -- NEW POSTING Dear sadaks, First about Human-- Man kills man-Why? Enemity, Greed Etc Etc. Animals kill animals only for food. Hindu God never resort to Violence but terminate extremely Bad people for the betterment of human beings at large. Here the Gods benefit nothing, but they act to save human beings at large. It is depicted in such a manner by some that it looks like violence. Kans is maternal uncle of Sri Krishna. Kans jailed his parents, Devaki and Vasudev. Sri Krishna as child left Mathura, but Kans went on sending asuras (demoniac people) to kill Sri Krishna. Asuras came to Krishna from Mathura, but Krishna never went there to kill. In defense Sri Krishna killed Asuras. The sacred truth behind this killing is giving Mukthi (salvation) to them. When God incarnates and kills, it is divine to die in the hands of Bhagavan. Sri Krishna never killed Jarasand though he waged war several times. Duryodhan was not killed though he tried to rope up Krishna who came as messenger for Pandavas. These people were unfit to die in HIS hands. Several warnings were given to Kans to behave himself and since he failed he was killed. Besides Kans was door keeper at Vaikunth as Jaya/Vijaya. Due to ego there they were cursed by Sanakadhi Munis to be born on earth. Actually Kans after being killed went to Vaikunth. Sri Rama was quietly living in the forest, why should Ravana abduct and carry Mother Sita to Lanka? When Ravana lost war and became alone without arms in his hand, Sri Rama said to Ravana Go today think of your sins and come tomorrow. But Ravana came to wage war again knowing that he will be killed. So also other Gods did. Jesus was born as human acquired Gyana between the age 14 to 30 became saint. Normally saints or Sanyasins are forbidden to any type of killing. They allow other to kill them, as it is their knowledge that body alone is being destroyed, but not the Soul (Athuman). When Jesus rose from death with body of wounds it was astrial body (Non Destructable). His disciple never believed Jesus and tested Jesus' wound on his ribs by sending his pointing finger into the wound. This disciple finger is still not perished and remains an exhibit. Demons with strong powers can be killed by Gods only. Now take Maha Lakshmi who incarnated as Sri Andal in Srivalliputtur, was tought by her God father Sri Pria Alwar the good deeds of Sri Krishna. She fell in love with Krishna and wanted to marry Sri Krishna. She took to 30 days Dhanurmasa Vrath and in presence of Chola king and people she was taken abode of Sri Vishnu who gave Dharshan to all with Sanka, Chakra, four Arms Etc on Garuda. Gods appear (Not Born) looks like being born. Sri Krishna was with 108 occult powers when born. To people it looks as being born. Sri Rama or Sri Krishna opted to be kshatriya / yadava not as Brahmin. Brahmins are forbidden to kill. Sanyasin (ascetics) are tought to give in themselves, when someone strikes them. Like Adi Sankara/Buddha/ Christ. B.Sathyanarayan Some of the Demons / Ill-minded souls are hard to change with preachings alone. They have to be physically removed like weeds, because they go beyond repair and are harmful to mankind. Also these characters and killing by GOD need not be taken in the literal sense. To make common people like us to understand, some of these might have been personified, otherwise it is mostly how to control the inner evils like greed/ ego etc to attain divinity " mvssr75 " ------------------------------- -Shree Hari- Dear Iyer GA, What a blessing you have in a son that wants to debate such things with you and visa versa. A respectful correction.Yahweh(Christian/Judaic God) was involved in wholesale slaughter and genocide. When the hard shell around ones spiritual heart is broken, the taste for violence is lost. I am looking forward to the wise council of the Sadhaks. I think this is a very interesting question. With Respect and Divine Love. Mike Keenor -------------------------------- VIOLENCE is when you apply force UNLAWFULLY, SHOURYA is KARTAVYA (Duty) to restore DHARMA Dear Iyer, Lord krishna himself went to Su(Dhur)yodhana and adviced to give back what belonged to Pandavas. Did they heed? So lord had to KILL them to teach this world that if you try to keep that which does not belong to you, it will be disaster. Lord pardons who ever takes asylum in him, kills who goes against him (Nature). Gandhi policy does not apply to all cases. Can we sit in front of afzal guru fasting like Gandhi and make him repent for his attack on parliament? Please try it and then ask why krishna killed Kamsa. You yourself will take a weapon to restore Dharma if your son is hurt by any anti-social element and when they try to do again and again. Using Shourya is kartavya (duty) and is a part of restoring Dharma (righteousness) and shanti (peace). Violence is not a part of Hindu Gods or any body who protects Mother Land. It is called " shourya " Please note if our people in borders chant Om shanti, then bullets come from other side and may hit your chest. So a protector(God or any king/human being like soldier) has to use force to subdue non-social element to restore the civilizaton, else country will be weak and no place for Dharma. Hindu gods showed this ... to be strong and rise to occasion. Save the Dharma even if you have to kill your own brother. Non-violence should be practised but not at all times. HARI OM TATH SATH shiva Kumar shapur Dear Shri Ayer, I too am an old man, vegetarian and certainly non-violent. But I am a devotee of Durga. It is depicted in various forms including Mahishmardani. Similarly other Hindu Gods too may be shown in benevolent forms like Gyatri, Lord Vishnu or Brahma Even Shiva may be depicted in the dance pose. Dear friend you look inside. You will find a conflict going in all the time. Good ultimately prevails. But it is so because of a fight between the God and the devil. So my suggestion is enjoy the fights and always stand by the righteousness. With best wishes. Shridhar Pant -------------------------------- Shreemanji, There is a small anamoly. You say you are a senior citizen and haven't been able to realise the answer to your question in all these years ????? Is there any difference between Bhartiya (Indian/Hindu) and other Gods ? Read the scriptures with an open mind and NOT blind faith or dislike. It has all got to do with human psychology. You will discover the answer yourself. Pranam Sampuran Singh - GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: 1. 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Guest guest Posted November 10, 2008 Report Share Posted November 10, 2008 Respected Sirs, I am hindu, a senior citizen, vegetarian and a non-violent loving person. Mahatma Gandhi was the staunchest of non-violent human beings. Though every one, violent and non violent alike would like peace prevail in this world VIOLENCE is happening in this world, knowingly or unknowingly. My question is - Why Hindu Gods are depicted to be showing violence (killing or anihilating evil physically)? eg: Lord Krishna Kills Kamsa, Goddess Durga Kills Pandasura and other Asuras, Lord Shiva Kills Kameswar, Lord Rama Kills Ravana and Bali. Lords of other religions do not appear to follow these paths, no matter the extent of the sufferings one has to undergo. Jesus suffered all along, though he too was believed to have had super natural powers. Kindly enlighten me, in the circumstances, why Hindu Gods loose patience and resort to violent killings to eliminate evil? I have to answer my son who debates with me often. Pranams ! Iyer GA -- NEW POSTING dear brother loves and best wishes. The creator Himself has said in Geeta that the very purpose of His incarnation in human form is to destroy the wicked, to save the righteous. In fact this seems to be one of the necessary divine rule. Moreover non-violence does not mean not to resist evil. thanks. ck kaul ------------------------------- II SHRI HARI II Respected Shri Iyer Ji, One must understand God or Lord, a Prophet and Saint in their respective capacity. Our Gods and Hindu Dharma do not follow the principle of Violence (Hinsa) and in fact, Violence (Hinsa) has no place in any of Hindu scriptures and character of our Gods and Saints. Our scriptures say " Ahinsa Param Dharmo " (Non-violence is the ultimate (basis) of religion). Life (Leela) of our Gods and Saints show no violence whatsoever. To understand this you must go through our scriptures carefully under the guidance of eminent Sdhakas and participate in the Satsang of our great Saints (Sad Gurus). In Sanatan Dharma, there are mainly five Gods (Panch Devas) and only these Panch Devas are worshipped. Although, there are thirty three crore Devi Devtas and they are all the parts of only Panch Devas. In other religions we do not find Gods but the great Saints who are said to be Sons of Gods and sent by God to spread peace and the teachings of Gods. Our religion spreads over infinite time, you can count the origination and time for the others. First of all it is important to understand Ravna, Bali, Kans and numerous other Asur (Rakshasas). All these Asur were God's devotees (Bhaktas) and following the path of Vair (enmity) Bhakti (devotion for enmity). There are two type of devotees (Bhaktas) first Premi Bhaktas (dveotees who love God) and second the Vairi Bhaktas (devotees who keep enmity with God). Purpose of both devotees is same i.e. attainment of God. Ravna and his brother Kumbh Karan both were Jay and Vijay the Door Men (Dwar Pal) of Lord Vishnu's Vaikuntha lok. One day Sanakadik Rishis were going to meet God Vishnu in the Vaikunthalok and Jay and Vijay the Door Men (Dwar Pal) of Lord's Vaikunthalok stopped them at the door saying that they can not enter Vaikuntha without God Vishnu's permission, which was quite surprising as Rishis and Saints do not require permission to enter any of Divya Lokas. Therefore, Sanakadik Rishis got angry over the attitude of Jay and Vijay the Door Men (Dwar Pal) of Lord Vaikuntha and passed on curse (Shraap) to Jay and Vijay to take birth three times in Asuras (Rakshasas). Frightened by the curse (Shraap), Jay and Vijay fell on the lotus feet of Sanakadik Rishis for mercy (Daya) and Lord Vishnu also requested Sanakadik Rishis to show some compassion and Sanakadik Rishis relaxed their curse (Shraap) and told that though Jay and Vijay will take birth in Asur Kul (Rakshasas, Demons) but Lord Vishnu will take reincarnation (Avtaar) for their welfare (Udhar). And Sanakadik Rishis said this will happen likewise (Tthasthu). Accordingly, Jay and Vijay the Door Men (Dwar Pal) of Lord Vishnu's Vekunthalok, took birth in Asur Kul in Treta Yug and Lord Ram took incarnation (Avtaar) for their well being (Udhar). Ravna and his brother Kumbh Karan along with numerous Asurs (demoniac beings) were killed and each of them went to Satlok. In Dwaapar they took birth as Dantvakra and Shishupal, the associates of Kans, and Lord Krishna took incarnation (Avtaar) for their well being (Udhar). Dantvakra and Shishupal along with so many Asurs were killed by Lord Krishna and each of these Asurs (demoniac ones) went to Lord Krishna's dham (abode). When the Jeev gets Lord's Divya Lok on his death, he is called Badbhagi (great in destiny) as he gets Lord's Divya Lok which the Sadhu, saints, Rishi and sadhakas long for. For each of the Lord's incarnation (Avtaar), there are various reasons (Hetu) and to fulfill each of the reason (Hetu) Lord takes incarnation (Avtaar) for the welfare of Lord's devotees (Bhaktas). Ram Charit Manas states " RAM JANAM KE HETU ANEKA, PARAM VICHITRA EK TE EKA " . You can understand these only by participating in the Satsang and by carefully going through and understanding our holy scriptures like Shreemad Bhagwat, Ram Charit Manas, Shiv Mha Puran, Skand Puran, Vedas, Upnishaidas, Shruty and Samrity granthas and even sidh Chalisa like hanuman Chalisa, Durga Chalisa, Shive Chalisa and so on. Perhaps you do not know about the sacrifice of our great Rishis and Saints and that's why you are quoting the example of Jesus. Our Dadhichi Rishi sacrificed his body to give his bones (Asthiyan) to Indra Dev the king of Devtaas to make Vajra from the Rishi's bones (Asthiyan) for killing Vritasur Asur to save the Srishti from demolition. Sanatan Dharma possesses infinite knowledge of the Infinite Lord. No other religion possesses such a large variety of Holy Scriptures. There are four Vedas, 301 Upnishaidas, 18 Puranas, Vedant and enormous Saint Charitar, Saint Vaani, Guru Vaani etc. It is simply enormous! That's why it is stated in Ram Charit Manas " HARI ANANT HARI KATHA ANANTA , KAHI SUNI BAHU VIDHI SAB SANTA " . The Gatha (Katha) of Ananat Bhagwan, the One whose birth and death is not known to any body, the One who is unborn and do not die and the One who is beyond birth and death is INFINITE (Aseem, Athaha)! How can men like us who are definite, limited in life and strength can know his Katha. Sanatan Dharma is a non-violent religion. Do not be misconceived or misguided. Go to Satsang, read our holy scriptures and then only you will be able to express your true quest (Jigyas) for knowledge. May Bhagwan Shree Hari Har satisfy your doubts! Shubham Astu, RAJINDER MOHAN VOHRA -------------------------- Thank you for forwarding this letter. I believe Krishna never resorted to any violence - he tried to protect non-violence. Krishna never advised Arjuna to kill people or resort to violence. Can you show anywhere in GITA Krishna advising a war? Gods are to protect non-violence and to maintain dharma. They are not Saints. Lovingly Dr.Uday Pai -------------------------- Dear Sir: Perhaps Hindu Gods resort to " violence " so that Hindu people stay peaceful. Only Hinduism can create a Gandhi, as you pointed out, the staunches non-violent person. While other religion's God may not appear to be violent, the people of other religion appear to be more violent than Hindus, as can be observed by events today and by events of History. Viz. Followers of a " peaceful " Jesus initiated the Crusades. So maybe there is an inverse relationship between the behavior of Gods and their followers ?? (Based on my understanding, the old testament of the Christians is full of violence. " Slay the idolators, destroy the idols " , " leave no man, woman, child, animals of the enemy alive " to paraphrase some of the writings.) Also, the violence of the Hindu Gods is not mindless violence. There are some people who only listen to violence. For example, the terrorists who are bombing innocent people in India can only be handled thru like minded treatment. Perhaps, publicly blowing up a terrorist in the same place he planted bombs to kill innocent people is the only language he will listen to. So in that sense I wish Hindus would get more aggressive to seek justice. And Dharma requires this. Dilip Bhagat --------------------------- Hare Ram Hare Krishna Dear Sir, Pranam If your question has arisen out of a thirst to understand the God, then I whole heartedly welcome it and try to put my views as below. However if it has arisen with an intention of malice, then it is time to quit all false books/thoughts leading you to such confusions or debates and concentrate only on the divine Gita - the ultimate guide to reach the one and only God. According to the holy Gita, God is the most superior, the ultimate power, the invincible, and is always victorious. The common sense also confirms this, otherwise anyone can defeat God and he/she can become God. Just as living things are created by God, it is His duty to digest them within Himself and give life to new ones to maintain the balance of this universe. This digestion into Himself has happened in many ways - in the form of moksha to the Rushis who had spent a peaceful life worshipping Him throughout their life, in the form of death to those who approached a violent form of life and in several ways. This had been confirmed by the existence of Lord Krishna, who is the ONE and ONLY GOD in this world and Bhagavad Gita is the proof for it. The portraying of victory of good over evil have been depicted as VIOLENT for common man to understand but it is all part of his MAYA ! And remember it was the choice Jaya and Vijaya made to die in the hands of the God Himself three times as evil doers than to be his devotees and wait for the MOKSHA after 6 rebirths. And why do you focus only at these depictions and see it as a physical violence while there are plenty of instances in puranas where God had been so merciful and loving - mokhas to rushis, life to the dead, etc. I hope my explanation will answer you that God doesn't lose patience and resort to violence. Regarding your reference to Jesus, He was a messiah of peace who suffered and died for the people. A God is there to protect the good from evil. If God cannot protect himself in the hands of evil, how can he protect the good from the evil? From my perspectivie it is illogical to think that someone suffered pain in the past for the sins which will be committed by future generations. It should be the other way round. And the existence of Lord Krishna is the best example of the triumph of God over evil or mere mortals. He killed the evil and he was always victorious. He was so merciful to end his incarnation in the hands of his beloved devotee as per his promise in his previous incarnation as Lord Rama. I hope and pray that you and your son will read the divine Gita with a positive mind-set, as all of us should do, and attain Lord Krishna with our good thoughts and deeds. Hare Ram Hare Krishna SRIKANTH MOHAN KETHU --------------------------- Dear Sadak, The statement of Sri Iyer GA that Bagavan Shiva killed Kameswar. Dear Sir, Vayu Bagavan is wind, Varna Bagavan is Rain and so on. The demi gods are having No specific form. They are Pancha Boothas. Kameswar is not GOD or demi God. Kameswar is symbol of desire. Kama + Easwaran-- means Kama desire-- Easwaran ruler. Kameswaran is ruler of desires. Bagavan Shiva killed Kameswar by HIS 3rd eye. We can also kill desires by our 3rd eye Gyana located between 2 eye brows were thilak is put upon. Again-- Kama never leaves anyone by its nature. But it did not work out in case of Bagavan Shiva. Also purana says that Kameswar was given back the power. This Kameswar was sent by Indra to distrub Bagavan Vishnu while doing Yogic Tapas in Badrinath. Kameswar failed in his attempt and Sri Vishnu gave Menaka a very beautiful looking lady as present to Indra through Kameswar. These puranas have hidden concepts. B.Sathyanarayan --------------------------- Evil can not be fought with platitudes. For example if we stand with folded hands before terrorists then they will gain the upper hand. That is what our ancient books teach us. Our Gods fought evil even in Satyug and we should fight evil in Kaliyug too. That is the lesson for us. Even in Christian countries, they have armies and give death sentences to murderers. Remember Iraq and Afghanistan? Hari Shanker Deo ----------------------------- I don't think there should be so much concern about " Hindu " " Gods " . The word Hindu itself is a misnomer, and should not be used to characterize the Bharatyia philosphical traditions. Most linguists will agree that it started with the " Satem/hatem " divide in the IE languages, and the " hatem " group residing outside the geopolitical context of the subcontinent who corrupted Sindhu into Hindu. Sindhu was a part of the " Mahabharatm " of Krishna and not the whole. The Arabs do mention " Hind-va-Sind " in the 7-8th century chronicles, thereby distinguishing and extending the concept from mere " Sindhu " . But no " Hindu " inscriptions use the term until 15th century. There are also many " Gods " . Vishnu descends as avatar, but Shiva does not. The Gods do not always show fairness in their treatment and this is the reason sometimes they have to justify their actions by introducing " past life karma " , something obviously unverifiable by the majority of the commoners. The Ramayana story as popularly rendered omits certain crucial details from the Balmiki version relevant for this topic, like that of why Ravana had to be invited by Rama to perform the rites of initiation ( " Bodhana " ) of Chandi/Durga - the same rites carried out by the avatar of Vishnu to gain ultimate victory over Ravana. Ravana was the best " Brahmin " available (what happened to " caste " - the same " caste " which has even found its way into the Gita as something whose breakdown by the " women " and others leads to eventual destruction of " civilization " and " dharma " - the Asura clan Ravana, who fights and abducts women like the Kshatryias being a Brahmin!) for even Brahma had omitted Gayatri recitation for one " Sandhya " and was unfit as a " yagnik " (lets not go into the actual reason as to why he could not - as it might throw some lights on possible motivations even in this fountainhead of " Brahmanya " revelation). The " Gods " and the " Asuras " both derived from the same " father " , and to start with they were not even " immortal " . They had to coopt the asura " siblings " to extract " amrita " and then needed Vishnu to cheat them of their legitimate share. The Gods get tempted by the beauty of mortal women, like Ahalya, and seduce or rape them. It becomes convenient then later to invent " bad past Karma " to justify such unfair treatment of humans. In this the common Gods do resemble (and were perhaps in reality just deification of actual humans or modeled on the " aristocracy " of the time) the common historical behaviour of elite ruling class. The real strength of Bharatyia philosophy should be sought in a proper analysis and absorption of the Upanishads, the Gita, and the Mahabharatam - the last two being essentially statements on political society and individual's relation with that of the state and the social group. These have little to do with the " Gods " - Gods have minor roles in the Mahabharatam, the original source of the Gita. Gods are just a reflection of humanity, and should not be given so much importance. The Upanishads give a framework very much in compliance with modern science and logic, as to how humans should continue to explore the world around them and continuously update their knowledge - never to be stationary with one ossified belief without continuous requestioning ( " Charaibeti " ). The Mahabharatam and the Gita, edited out of their obvious later " priestly opportunistic addition " of support of unfair and unauthentic practices like " hereditary and for-life varna " gives the guiding principle for social interaction and the nature of the state - a crucial vision of nationhood embodied in this ideal of Krishna. " Gods " are not the primary messages of these core texts - they are mere additions by interested priests to extract benefits from society without contributing in real terms. " dikgajone " --------------------------- Sir, To my limited mind, there are two types of powers SUR (divine) and AASUR (demoniac). And Ishwara (God) also has to adopt the aasura (demoniac) powers in order to destroy the aasuri (demoniac) aspects in a aasur (demoniac) person. A Sur (Virtuous, Divine person) is always of positive behaviour. This is simplest and easiest way to understand. Ram Ji also killed AASURAs (demoniac men) because He is Ishwara (God), Himself, and does not need extra powers to switch between Sur (Divine) and AAsur (Demoniac) properties to accomplish a task. " apb1942 " ---------------------------- PRIOR POSTING Dear sadaks, First about Human-- Man kills man-Why? Enemity, Greed Etc Etc. Animals kill animals only for food. Hindu God never resort to Violence but terminate extremely Bad people for the betterment of human beings at large. Here the Gods benefit nothing, but they act to save human beings at large. It is depicted in such a manner by some that it looks like violence. Kans is maternal uncle of Sri Krishna. Kans jailed his parents, Devaki and Vasudev. Sri Krishna as child left Mathura, but Kans went on sending asuras (demoniac people) to kill Sri Krishna. Asuras came to Krishna from Mathura, but Krishna never went there to kill. In defense Sri Krishna killed Asuras. The sacred truth behind this killing is giving Mukthi (salvation) to them. When God incarnates and kills, it is divine to die in the hands of Bhagavan. Sri Krishna never killed Jarasand though he waged war several times. Duryodhan was not killed though he tried to rope up Krishna who came as messenger for Pandavas. These people were unfit to die in HIS hands. Several warnings were given to Kans to behave himself and since he failed he was killed. Besides Kans was door keeper at Vaikunth as Jaya/Vijaya. Due to ego there they were cursed by Sanakadhi Munis to be born on earth. Actually Kans after being killed went to Vaikunth. Sri Rama was quietly living in the forest, why should Ravana abduct and carry Mother Sita to Lanka? When Ravana lost war and became alone without arms in his hand, Sri Rama said to Ravana Go today think of your sins and come tomorrow. But Ravana came to wage war again knowing that he will be killed. So also other Gods did. Jesus was born as human acquired Gyana between the age 14 to 30 became saint. Normally saints or Sanyasins are forbidden to any type of killing. They allow other to kill them, as it is their knowledge that body alone is being destroyed, but not the Soul (Athuman). When Jesus rose from death with body of wounds it was astrial body (Non Destructable). His disciple never believed Jesus and tested Jesus' wound on his ribs by sending his pointing finger into the wound. This disciple finger is still not perished and remains an exhibit. Demons with strong powers can be killed by Gods only. Now take Maha Lakshmi who incarnated as Sri Andal in Srivalliputtur, was tought by her God father Sri Pria Alwar the good deeds of Sri Krishna. She fell in love with Krishna and wanted to marry Sri Krishna. She took to 30 days Dhanurmasa Vrath and in presence of Chola king and people she was taken abode of Sri Vishnu who gave Dharshan to all with Sanka, Chakra, four Arms Etc on Garuda. Gods appear (Not Born) looks like being born. Sri Krishna was with 108 occult powers when born. To people it looks as being born. Sri Rama or Sri Krishna opted to be kshatriya / yadava not as Brahmin. Brahmins are forbidden to kill. Sanyasin (ascetics) are tought to give in themselves, when someone strikes them. Like Adi Sankara/Buddha/ Christ. B.Sathyanarayan Some of the Demons / Ill-minded souls are hard to change with preachings alone. They have to be physically removed like weeds, because they go beyond repair and are harmful to mankind. Also these characters and killing by GOD need not be taken in the literal sense. To make common people like us to understand, some of these might have been personified, otherwise it is mostly how to control the inner evils like greed/ ego etc to attain divinity " mvssr75 " ------------------------------- -Shree Hari- Dear Iyer GA, What a blessing you have in a son that wants to debate such things with you and visa versa. A respectful correction.Yahweh(Christian/Judaic God) was involved in wholesale slaughter and genocide. When the hard shell around ones spiritual heart is broken, the taste for violence is lost. I am looking forward to the wise council of the Sadhaks. I think this is a very interesting question. With Respect and Divine Love. Mike Keenor -------------------------------- VIOLENCE is when you apply force UNLAWFULLY, SHOURYA is KARTAVYA (Duty) to restore DHARMA Dear Iyer, Lord krishna himself went to Su(Dhur)yodhana and adviced to give back what belonged to Pandavas. Did they heed? So lord had to KILL them to teach this world that if you try to keep that which does not belong to you, it will be disaster. Lord pardons who ever takes asylum in him, kills who goes against him (Nature). Gandhi policy does not apply to all cases. Can we sit in front of afzal guru fasting like Gandhi and make him repent for his attack on parliament? Please try it and then ask why krishna killed Kamsa. You yourself will take a weapon to restore Dharma if your son is hurt by any anti-social element and when they try to do again and again. Using Shourya is kartavya (duty) and is a part of restoring Dharma (righteousness) and shanti (peace). Violence is not a part of Hindu Gods or any body who protects Mother Land. It is called " shourya " Please note if our people in borders chant Om shanti, then bullets come from other side and may hit your chest. So a protector(God or any king/human being like soldier) has to use force to subdue non-social element to restore the civilizaton, else country will be weak and no place for Dharma. Hindu gods showed this ... to be strong and rise to occasion. Save the Dharma even if you have to kill your own brother. Non-violence should be practised but not at all times. HARI OM TATH SATH shiva Kumar shapur Dear Shri Ayer, I too am an old man, vegetarian and certainly non-violent. But I am a devotee of Durga. It is depicted in various forms including Mahishmardani. Similarly other Hindu Gods too may be shown in benevolent forms like Gyatri, Lord Vishnu or Brahma Even Shiva may be depicted in the dance pose. Dear friend you look inside. You will find a conflict going in all the time. Good ultimately prevails. But it is so because of a fight between the God and the devil. So my suggestion is enjoy the fights and always stand by the righteousness. With best wishes. Shridhar Pant -------------------------------- Shreemanji, There is a small anamoly. You say you are a senior citizen and haven't been able to realise the answer to your question in all these years ????? Is there any difference between Bhartiya (Indian/Hindu) and other Gods ? Read the scriptures with an open mind and NOT blind faith or dislike. It has all got to do with human psychology. You will discover the answer yourself. Pranam Sampuran Singh - GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: 1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify their doubts related to Gitaji shlokas. Therefore, responses which further clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be posted. 2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to substantiate your response. 3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas 4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting sadhaka's time. 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only. 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other organizations. 7. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone number, address etc. 8. Please do not address the response to a particular individual since the message is going to the entire group. 9. Due to the large readership, all responses may not be posted. 10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if content is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the group. 11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use to Sanskrit words only, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit bracketed wherever possible. 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Guest guest Posted November 10, 2008 Report Share Posted November 10, 2008 Respected Sirs, I am hindu, a senior citizen, vegetarian and a non-violent loving person. Mahatma Gandhi was the staunchest of non-violent human beings. Though every one, violent and non violent alike would like peace prevail in this world VIOLENCE is happening in this world, knowingly or unknowingly. My question is - Why Hindu Gods are depicted to be showing violence (killing or anihilating evil physically)? eg: Lord Krishna Kills Kamsa, Goddess Durga Kills Pandasura and other Asuras, Lord Shiva Kills Kameswar, Lord Rama Kills Ravana and Bali. Lords of other religions do not appear to follow these paths, no matter the extent of the sufferings one has to undergo. Jesus suffered all along, though he too was believed to have had super natural powers. Kindly enlighten me, in the circumstances, why Hindu Gods loose patience and resort to violent killings to eliminate evil? I have to answer my son who debates with me often. Pranams ! Iyer GA -- NEW POSTING Shree Hari Ram Ram Shri Iyer Bhaiyya, Tell your son simply that to eradicate evil, one has to engage in violence. If your son understands about a scorpion and his sting, then ask him that if a scorpion comes into the house and is running around to sting someone, what would he do? Sometimes, a question posed against a question, can be a better clarifier, than an answer. So be it ! Vineet Sarvottam -------------------------------- Dear Sadhak, According to the Yajnavalkya Samhita, ahimsa or non-violence is the awareness and practice of non-violence in thought, speech and action. Do we practice Non-violence at that lavel ??? Do we not kill mosquitoes, cockroches and so many other so called " harmful being " according to us? What do you say about - Hang till death, cutting hands of a thief and so many other such so called justice orders? All our Puranas have symbolic meaning, they want us to look deep inside us. The war between good and evil is going on inside us only. Do we not need to " kill " our bad thoughts ? Do we call killing of our bad thoughts/demonic qualities as the act of violence ? Who gives power to kill those bad qualities within ? Ya Devi Sarvabhuteshu Shakti rupen sansthita Namstasye, namstasye, Namstasye namo Nama " I bow to the Divine Mother Who resides within me as Power/Strength " Thus MaaDurga-Goddess of Motherly Love, Mother of sur (Demigods/our good qualities) and Asura(Devils/our bad qualities) alike, cannot be blamed as performing violence. She is washing away the evils of Her sons by purifying them through Her divine weapons, and ultimately merging them all in Her own Divine Love. Similarly Lord Shiva, who drank vemon for the welfare of the entire universe, whose another name is Bhole Baba(Innocent God who pleases easily and bless us without considering our good/bad karmas) can not even think of violence. Read more about Him and you will know how merciful is He. We cannot know about our Gods until we know our own self. The Supreme is seated right into our own Heart. Look within, meditate deeply and know Thy Self. Surrender to Gitaji and go beyond the duality of this world. Krishna says- " I am the goal, the sustainer, the master, the witness, the abode, the refuge and the most dear friend. I am the creation and the annihilation, the basis of everything, the resting place and the eternal seed. " Gitaji Ch 9:18 He is All then who is killing whom ? We are not the body, and suffering is all illusion arising from the Nature. If we want to see peace, love and bliss in the world, we have to " BE " peace, love and bliss. There is no other way. There is no Hindu GOD or Christian God. There is only ONE, and that ONE GOD cannot be understood by debate as He is beyond duality, beyond mind, intellect. God can only be experienced. If your son wants to understand Sanatan Dharma, present him with a Gitaji. Read Gitaji over and over again, contemplate on each stanza. Come back and answer your own question. With lots of Love, A sadhika Sadhna Karigar - Dear Sir, We all need to better understand the Hindu philosophy and its message. First of all we need to understand the meaning of non- violence. Does it mean only physical act of killing or harming? No. any act leading to harm or hurt others through thought, word or deed is Non-violence. A physical act of killing in a war with a pure intension of good of the mankind is again not classified as violence. Unfortunately, this thought also is misunderstood, misinterpreted and misused now a days. When a mother slaps a child it is not called violence. because the act originates out of Love. The stories which you are referring to are from an era when evil could be identified as a person. who in many cases knew what is evil or wrong but could not help act in that influence.. that time to remove the evil was to destroy them. Even if you look at the story of Gods killing... you would find that it was the last resort. Even those 'evil' people were given all the possible chances and opportunities to change. Only when they refused to comply and the suffering of good become unbearable the physical act of annihilation was performed, to reinstate the faith, to restore righteousness. It is high time we realize that spirituality is not for weak. it requires Will of Shankra, courage of Vivekanand. Today good and evil have become seen in every person. hence to destroy the evil path of annihilation of the person is not resorted. In todays time the solution is - Transformation of heart. for this the divine beings use various methods. even allowing themselves to suffer. Lets not misinterpret their divine pure act of grace. We are such people who would not hesistate to crucify Jesus and do nothing to stop and fight against but will be first to feel pity after the act is done. we dont want to self introspect why he was crucified. we are just contented to know that he was crucified for our sins. As if the godly people have the obligation to be crucified while we continue on our unjust ways. if you love Jesus then share his pain by being good and just. be open and understanding, be loving towards all. God has given each one enough strength to fight our own battles. be willing to suffer the punishments for the mistake committed, dont pass it on to god or godly people and expect them to suffer for you. I request you to not use such words " hindu gods lose patience " . this thought itself is full of ignorance. First of all know - There is only one GOD and he is omnipresent, omniscience, and omni-potent. What ever God does is for good of all. Even the physical act of so called violence is for the good. it is for us to understand how, when and why he does what he does. Even to qualify to question god we must first become a humble student. then may be the divine wisdom would fall on us to understand and enjoy the bliss of his grace. sai ram Abhimanyu Kaul Sadaks With birth comes death. Mahatma Gandhi fought with weapons he had i.e. none, but you cannot run a country on that philosophy as India found out with China. We must all defend Dharma. This is the best. A persons duty is to live according to Dharma and to defend it. From Ahimsa paramo dharmaha, Dharma himsa tathaiva cha. This Is the full proper statement. Each person has to follow the work according to his caste and station in life. Kshatriyas job is to defend and fight for dharma. This is amply show in Gita, Ramayan, Mahabharat, in FACT THE ONLY HOLY BOOK WRITTEN ON A BATTLE FIELD IS THE GITA. Non violence is the best Dharma, but to attain it HIMSA (violence) is required to defend this is the message. Jayesh A Patel PRIOR POSTING dear brother loves and best wishes. The creator Himself has said in Geeta that the very purpose of His incarnation in human form is to destroy the wicked, to save the righteous. In fact this seems to be one of the necessary divine rule. Moreover non-violence does not mean not to resist evil. thanks. ck kaul ------------------------------- II SHRI HARI II Respected Shri Iyer Ji, One must understand God or Lord, a Prophet and Saint in their respective capacity. Our Gods and Hindu Dharma do not follow the principle of Violence (Hinsa) and in fact, Violence (Hinsa) has no place in any of Hindu scriptures and character of our Gods and Saints. Our scriptures say " Ahinsa Param Dharmo " (Non-violence is the ultimate (basis) of religion). Life (Leela) of our Gods and Saints show no violence whatsoever. To understand this you must go through our scriptures carefully under the guidance of eminent Sdhakas and participate in the Satsang of our great Saints (Sad Gurus). In Sanatan Dharma, there are mainly five Gods (Panch Devas) and only these Panch Devas are worshipped. Although, there are thirty three crore Devi Devtas and they are all the parts of only Panch Devas. In other religions we do not find Gods but the great Saints who are said to be Sons of Gods and sent by God to spread peace and the teachings of Gods. Our religion spreads over infinite time, you can count the origination and time for the others. First of all it is important to understand Ravna, Bali, Kans and numerous other Asur (Rakshasas). All these Asur were God's devotees (Bhaktas) and following the path of Vair (enmity) Bhakti (devotion for enmity). There are two type of devotees (Bhaktas) first Premi Bhaktas (dveotees who love God) and second the Vairi Bhaktas (devotees who keep enmity with God). Purpose of both devotees is same i.e. attainment of God. Ravna and his brother Kumbh Karan both were Jay and Vijay the Door Men (Dwar Pal) of Lord Vishnu's Vaikuntha lok. One day Sanakadik Rishis were going to meet God Vishnu in the Vaikunthalok and Jay and Vijay the Door Men (Dwar Pal) of Lord's Vaikunthalok stopped them at the door saying that they can not enter Vaikuntha without God Vishnu's permission, which was quite surprising as Rishis and Saints do not require permission to enter any of Divya Lokas. Therefore, Sanakadik Rishis got angry over the attitude of Jay and Vijay the Door Men (Dwar Pal) of Lord Vaikuntha and passed on curse (Shraap) to Jay and Vijay to take birth three times in Asuras (Rakshasas). Frightened by the curse (Shraap), Jay and Vijay fell on the lotus feet of Sanakadik Rishis for mercy (Daya) and Lord Vishnu also requested Sanakadik Rishis to show some compassion and Sanakadik Rishis relaxed their curse (Shraap) and told that though Jay and Vijay will take birth in Asur Kul (Rakshasas, Demons) but Lord Vishnu will take reincarnation (Avtaar) for their welfare (Udhar). And Sanakadik Rishis said this will happen likewise (Tthasthu). Accordingly, Jay and Vijay the Door Men (Dwar Pal) of Lord Vishnu's Vekunthalok, took birth in Asur Kul in Treta Yug and Lord Ram took incarnation (Avtaar) for their well being (Udhar). Ravna and his brother Kumbh Karan along with numerous Asurs (demoniac beings) were killed and each of them went to Satlok. In Dwaapar they took birth as Dantvakra and Shishupal, the associates of Kans, and Lord Krishna took incarnation (Avtaar) for their well being (Udhar). Dantvakra and Shishupal along with so many Asurs were killed by Lord Krishna and each of these Asurs (demoniac ones) went to Lord Krishna's dham (abode). When the Jeev gets Lord's Divya Lok on his death, he is called Badbhagi (great in destiny) as he gets Lord's Divya Lok which the Sadhu, saints, Rishi and sadhakas long for. For each of the Lord's incarnation (Avtaar), there are various reasons (Hetu) and to fulfill each of the reason (Hetu) Lord takes incarnation (Avtaar) for the welfare of Lord's devotees (Bhaktas). Ram Charit Manas states " RAM JANAM KE HETU ANEKA, PARAM VICHITRA EK TE EKA " . You can understand these only by participating in the Satsang and by carefully going through and understanding our holy scriptures like Shreemad Bhagwat, Ram Charit Manas, Shiv Mha Puran, Skand Puran, Vedas, Upnishaidas, Shruty and Samrity granthas and even sidh Chalisa like hanuman Chalisa, Durga Chalisa, Shive Chalisa and so on. Perhaps you do not know about the sacrifice of our great Rishis and Saints and that's why you are quoting the example of Jesus. Our Dadhichi Rishi sacrificed his body to give his bones (Asthiyan) to Indra Dev the king of Devtaas to make Vajra from the Rishi's bones (Asthiyan) for killing Vritasur Asur to save the Srishti from demolition. Sanatan Dharma possesses infinite knowledge of the Infinite Lord. No other religion possesses such a large variety of Holy Scriptures. There are four Vedas, 301 Upnishaidas, 18 Puranas, Vedant and enormous Saint Charitar, Saint Vaani, Guru Vaani etc. It is simply enormous! That's why it is stated in Ram Charit Manas " HARI ANANT HARI KATHA ANANTA , KAHI SUNI BAHU VIDHI SAB SANTA " . The Gatha (Katha) of Ananat Bhagwan, the One whose birth and death is not known to any body, the One who is unborn and do not die and the One who is beyond birth and death is INFINITE (Aseem, Athaha)! How can men like us who are definite, limited in life and strength can know his Katha. Sanatan Dharma is a non-violent religion. Do not be misconceived or misguided. Go to Satsang, read our holy scriptures and then only you will be able to express your true quest (Jigyas) for knowledge. May Bhagwan Shree Hari Har satisfy your doubts! Shubham Astu, RAJINDER MOHAN VOHRA -------------------------- Thank you for forwarding this letter. I believe Krishna never resorted to any violence - he tried to protect non-violence. Krishna never advised Arjuna to kill people or resort to violence. Can you show anywhere in GITA Krishna advising a war? Gods are to protect non-violence and to maintain dharma. They are not Saints. Lovingly Dr.Uday Pai -------------------------- Dear Sir: Perhaps Hindu Gods resort to " violence " so that Hindu people stay peaceful. Only Hinduism can create a Gandhi, as you pointed out, the staunches non-violent person. While other religion's God may not appear to be violent, the people of other religion appear to be more violent than Hindus, as can be observed by events today and by events of History. Viz. Followers of a " peaceful " Jesus initiated the Crusades. So maybe there is an inverse relationship between the behavior of Gods and their followers ?? (Based on my understanding, the old testament of the Christians is full of violence. " Slay the idolators, destroy the idols " , " leave no man, woman, child, animals of the enemy alive " to paraphrase some of the writings.) Also, the violence of the Hindu Gods is not mindless violence. There are some people who only listen to violence. For example, the terrorists who are bombing innocent people in India can only be handled thru like minded treatment. Perhaps, publicly blowing up a terrorist in the same place he planted bombs to kill innocent people is the only language he will listen to. So in that sense I wish Hindus would get more aggressive to seek justice. And Dharma requires this. Dilip Bhagat --------------------------- Hare Ram Hare Krishna Dear Sir, Pranam If your question has arisen out of a thirst to understand the God, then I whole heartedly welcome it and try to put my views as below. However if it has arisen with an intention of malice, then it is time to quit all false books/thoughts leading you to such confusions or debates and concentrate only on the divine Gita - the ultimate guide to reach the one and only God. According to the holy Gita, God is the most superior, the ultimate power, the invincible, and is always victorious. The common sense also confirms this, otherwise anyone can defeat God and he/she can become God. Just as living things are created by God, it is His duty to digest them within Himself and give life to new ones to maintain the balance of this universe. This digestion into Himself has happened in many ways - in the form of moksha to the Rushis who had spent a peaceful life worshipping Him throughout their life, in the form of death to those who approached a violent form of life and in several ways. This had been confirmed by the existence of Lord Krishna, who is the ONE and ONLY GOD in this world and Bhagavad Gita is the proof for it. The portraying of victory of good over evil have been depicted as VIOLENT for common man to understand but it is all part of his MAYA ! And remember it was the choice Jaya and Vijaya made to die in the hands of the God Himself three times as evil doers than to be his devotees and wait for the MOKSHA after 6 rebirths. And why do you focus only at these depictions and see it as a physical violence while there are plenty of instances in puranas where God had been so merciful and loving - mokhas to rushis, life to the dead, etc. I hope my explanation will answer you that God doesn't lose patience and resort to violence. Regarding your reference to Jesus, He was a messiah of peace who suffered and died for the people. A God is there to protect the good from evil. If God cannot protect himself in the hands of evil, how can he protect the good from the evil? From my perspectivie it is illogical to think that someone suffered pain in the past for the sins which will be committed by future generations. It should be the other way round. And the existence of Lord Krishna is the best example of the triumph of God over evil or mere mortals. He killed the evil and he was always victorious. He was so merciful to end his incarnation in the hands of his beloved devotee as per his promise in his previous incarnation as Lord Rama. I hope and pray that you and your son will read the divine Gita with a positive mind-set, as all of us should do, and attain Lord Krishna with our good thoughts and deeds. Hare Ram Hare Krishna SRIKANTH MOHAN KETHU --------------------------- Dear Sadak, The statement of Sri Iyer GA that Bagavan Shiva killed Kameswar. Dear Sir, Vayu Bagavan is wind, Varna Bagavan is Rain and so on. The demi gods are having No specific form. They are Pancha Boothas. Kameswar is not GOD or demi God. Kameswar is symbol of desire. Kama + Easwaran-- means Kama desire-- Easwaran ruler. Kameswaran is ruler of desires. Bagavan Shiva killed Kameswar by HIS 3rd eye. We can also kill desires by our 3rd eye Gyana located between 2 eye brows were thilak is put upon. Again-- Kama never leaves anyone by its nature. But it did not work out in case of Bagavan Shiva. Also purana says that Kameswar was given back the power. This Kameswar was sent by Indra to distrub Bagavan Vishnu while doing Yogic Tapas in Badrinath. Kameswar failed in his attempt and Sri Vishnu gave Menaka a very beautiful looking lady as present to Indra through Kameswar. These puranas have hidden concepts. B.Sathyanarayan --------------------------- Evil can not be fought with platitudes. For example if we stand with folded hands before terrorists then they will gain the upper hand. That is what our ancient books teach us. Our Gods fought evil even in Satyug and we should fight evil in Kaliyug too. That is the lesson for us. Even in Christian countries, they have armies and give death sentences to murderers. Remember Iraq and Afghanistan? Hari Shanker Deo ----------------------------- I don't think there should be so much concern about " Hindu " " Gods " . The word Hindu itself is a misnomer, and should not be used to characterize the Bharatyia philosphical traditions. Most linguists will agree that it started with the " Satem/hatem " divide in the IE languages, and the " hatem " group residing outside the geopolitical context of the subcontinent who corrupted Sindhu into Hindu. Sindhu was a part of the " Mahabharatm " of Krishna and not the whole. The Arabs do mention " Hind-va-Sind " in the 7-8th century chronicles, thereby distinguishing and extending the concept from mere " Sindhu " . But no " Hindu " inscriptions use the term until 15th century. There are also many " Gods " . Vishnu descends as avatar, but Shiva does not. The Gods do not always show fairness in their treatment and this is the reason sometimes they have to justify their actions by introducing " past life karma " , something obviously unverifiable by the majority of the commoners. The Ramayana story as popularly rendered omits certain crucial details from the Balmiki version relevant for this topic, like that of why Ravana had to be invited by Rama to perform the rites of initiation ( " Bodhana " ) of Chandi/Durga - the same rites carried out by the avatar of Vishnu to gain ultimate victory over Ravana. Ravana was the best " Brahmin " available (what happened to " caste " - the same " caste " which has even found its way into the Gita as something whose breakdown by the " women " and others leads to eventual destruction of " civilization " and " dharma " - the Asura clan Ravana, who fights and abducts women like the Kshatryias being a Brahmin!) for even Brahma had omitted Gayatri recitation for one " Sandhya " and was unfit as a " yagnik " (lets not go into the actual reason as to why he could not - as it might throw some lights on possible motivations even in this fountainhead of " Brahmanya " revelation). The " Gods " and the " Asuras " both derived from the same " father " , and to start with they were not even " immortal " . They had to coopt the asura " siblings " to extract " amrita " and then needed Vishnu to cheat them of their legitimate share. The Gods get tempted by the beauty of mortal women, like Ahalya, and seduce or rape them. It becomes convenient then later to invent " bad past Karma " to justify such unfair treatment of humans. In this the common Gods do resemble (and were perhaps in reality just deification of actual humans or modeled on the " aristocracy " of the time) the common historical behaviour of elite ruling class. The real strength of Bharatyia philosophy should be sought in a proper analysis and absorption of the Upanishads, the Gita, and the Mahabharatam - the last two being essentially statements on political society and individual's relation with that of the state and the social group. These have little to do with the " Gods " - Gods have minor roles in the Mahabharatam, the original source of the Gita. Gods are just a reflection of humanity, and should not be given so much importance. The Upanishads give a framework very much in compliance with modern science and logic, as to how humans should continue to explore the world around them and continuously update their knowledge - never to be stationary with one ossified belief without continuous requestioning ( " Charaibeti " ). The Mahabharatam and the Gita, edited out of their obvious later " priestly opportunistic addition " of support of unfair and unauthentic practices like " hereditary and for-life varna " gives the guiding principle for social interaction and the nature of the state - a crucial vision of nationhood embodied in this ideal of Krishna. " Gods " are not the primary messages of these core texts - they are mere additions by interested priests to extract benefits from society without contributing in real terms. " dikgajone " --------------------------- Sir, To my limited mind, there are two types of powers SUR (divine) and AASUR (demoniac). And Ishwara (God) also has to adopt the aasura (demoniac) powers in order to destroy the aasuri (demoniac) aspects in a aasur (demoniac) person. A Sur (Virtuous, Divine person) is always of positive behaviour. This is simplest and easiest way to understand. Ram Ji also killed AASURAs (demoniac men) because He is Ishwara (God), Himself, and does not need extra powers to switch between Sur (Divine) and AAsur (Demoniac) properties to accomplish a task. " apb1942 " ---------------------------- PRIOR POSTING Dear sadaks, First about Human-- Man kills man-Why? Enemity, Greed Etc Etc. Animals kill animals only for food. Hindu God never resort to Violence but terminate extremely Bad people for the betterment of human beings at large. Here the Gods benefit nothing, but they act to save human beings at large. It is depicted in such a manner by some that it looks like violence. Kans is maternal uncle of Sri Krishna. Kans jailed his parents, Devaki and Vasudev. Sri Krishna as child left Mathura, but Kans went on sending asuras (demoniac people) to kill Sri Krishna. Asuras came to Krishna from Mathura, but Krishna never went there to kill. In defense Sri Krishna killed Asuras. The sacred truth behind this killing is giving Mukthi (salvation) to them. When God incarnates and kills, it is divine to die in the hands of Bhagavan. Sri Krishna never killed Jarasand though he waged war several times. Duryodhan was not killed though he tried to rope up Krishna who came as messenger for Pandavas. These people were unfit to die in HIS hands. Several warnings were given to Kans to behave himself and since he failed he was killed. Besides Kans was door keeper at Vaikunth as Jaya/Vijaya. Due to ego there they were cursed by Sanakadhi Munis to be born on earth. Actually Kans after being killed went to Vaikunth. Sri Rama was quietly living in the forest, why should Ravana abduct and carry Mother Sita to Lanka? When Ravana lost war and became alone without arms in his hand, Sri Rama said to Ravana Go today think of your sins and come tomorrow. But Ravana came to wage war again knowing that he will be killed. So also other Gods did. Jesus was born as human acquired Gyana between the age 14 to 30 became saint. Normally saints or Sanyasins are forbidden to any type of killing. They allow other to kill them, as it is their knowledge that body alone is being destroyed, but not the Soul (Athuman). When Jesus rose from death with body of wounds it was astrial body (Non Destructable). His disciple never believed Jesus and tested Jesus' wound on his ribs by sending his pointing finger into the wound. This disciple finger is still not perished and remains an exhibit. Demons with strong powers can be killed by Gods only. Now take Maha Lakshmi who incarnated as Sri Andal in Srivalliputtur, was tought by her God father Sri Pria Alwar the good deeds of Sri Krishna. She fell in love with Krishna and wanted to marry Sri Krishna. She took to 30 days Dhanurmasa Vrath and in presence of Chola king and people she was taken abode of Sri Vishnu who gave Dharshan to all with Sanka, Chakra, four Arms Etc on Garuda. Gods appear (Not Born) looks like being born. Sri Krishna was with 108 occult powers when born. To people it looks as being born. Sri Rama or Sri Krishna opted to be kshatriya / yadava not as Brahmin. Brahmins are forbidden to kill. Sanyasin (ascetics) are tought to give in themselves, when someone strikes them. Like Adi Sankara/Buddha/ Christ. B.Sathyanarayan Some of the Demons / Ill-minded souls are hard to change with preachings alone. They have to be physically removed like weeds, because they go beyond repair and are harmful to mankind. Also these characters and killing by GOD need not be taken in the literal sense. To make common people like us to understand, some of these might have been personified, otherwise it is mostly how to control the inner evils like greed/ ego etc to attain divinity " mvssr75 " ------------------------------- -Shree Hari- Dear Iyer GA, What a blessing you have in a son that wants to debate such things with you and visa versa. A respectful correction.Yahweh(Christian/Judaic God) was involved in wholesale slaughter and genocide. When the hard shell around ones spiritual heart is broken, the taste for violence is lost. I am looking forward to the wise council of the Sadhaks. I think this is a very interesting question. With Respect and Divine Love. Mike Keenor -------------------------------- VIOLENCE is when you apply force UNLAWFULLY, SHOURYA is KARTAVYA (Duty) to restore DHARMA Dear Iyer, Lord krishna himself went to Su(Dhur)yodhana and adviced to give back what belonged to Pandavas. Did they heed? So lord had to KILL them to teach this world that if you try to keep that which does not belong to you, it will be disaster. Lord pardons who ever takes asylum in him, kills who goes against him (Nature). Gandhi policy does not apply to all cases. Can we sit in front of afzal guru fasting like Gandhi and make him repent for his attack on parliament? Please try it and then ask why krishna killed Kamsa. You yourself will take a weapon to restore Dharma if your son is hurt by any anti-social element and when they try to do again and again. Using Shourya is kartavya (duty) and is a part of restoring Dharma (righteousness) and shanti (peace). Violence is not a part of Hindu Gods or any body who protects Mother Land. It is called " shourya " Please note if our people in borders chant Om shanti, then bullets come from other side and may hit your chest. So a protector(God or any king/human being like soldier) has to use force to subdue non-social element to restore the civilizaton, else country will be weak and no place for Dharma. Hindu gods showed this ... to be strong and rise to occasion. Save the Dharma even if you have to kill your own brother. Non-violence should be practised but not at all times. HARI OM TATH SATH shiva Kumar shapur Dear Shri Ayer, I too am an old man, vegetarian and certainly non-violent. But I am a devotee of Durga. It is depicted in various forms including Mahishmardani. Similarly other Hindu Gods too may be shown in benevolent forms like Gyatri, Lord Vishnu or Brahma Even Shiva may be depicted in the dance pose. Dear friend you look inside. You will find a conflict going in all the time. Good ultimately prevails. But it is so because of a fight between the God and the devil. So my suggestion is enjoy the fights and always stand by the righteousness. With best wishes. Shridhar Pant -------------------------------- Shreemanji, There is a small anamoly. You say you are a senior citizen and haven't been able to realise the answer to your question in all these years ????? Is there any difference between Bhartiya (Indian/Hindu) and other Gods ? Read the scriptures with an open mind and NOT blind faith or dislike. It has all got to do with human psychology. You will discover the answer yourself. Pranam Sampuran Singh - GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: 1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify their doubts related to Gitaji shlokas. Therefore, responses which further clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be posted. 2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to substantiate your response. 3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas 4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting sadhaka's time. 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only. 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other organizations. 7. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone number, address etc. 8. Please do not address the response to a particular individual since the message is going to the entire group. 9. Due to the large readership, all responses may not be posted. 10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if content is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the group. 11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use to Sanskrit words only, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit bracketed wherever possible. 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Guest guest Posted November 11, 2008 Report Share Posted November 11, 2008 Respected Sirs, I am hindu, a senior citizen, vegetarian and a non-violent loving person. Mahatma Gandhi was the staunchest of non-violent human beings. Though every one, violent and non violent alike would like peace prevail in this world VIOLENCE is happening in this world, knowingly or unknowingly. My question is - Why Hindu Gods are depicted to be showing violence (killing or anihilating evil physically)? eg: Lord Krishna Kills Kamsa, Goddess Durga Kills Pandasura and other Asuras, Lord Shiva Kills Kameswar, Lord Rama Kills Ravana and Bali. Lords of other religions do not appear to follow these paths, no matter the extent of the sufferings one has to undergo. Jesus suffered all along, though he too was believed to have had super natural powers. Kindly enlighten me, in the circumstances, why Hindu Gods loose patience and resort to violent killings to eliminate evil? I have to answer my son who debates with me often. Pranams ! Iyer GA -- NEW POSTING There is only one God. No Hindu God or Muslim God or Christian God. They are all one and the same. Besides all human beings, irrespective of religion have souls whose ultimate destiny is to merge with God or the Parmatma. So to say this God is violent and the other is not is an exercise in futility. Hari Shanker Deo - Dear Mr. Iyer, Gods created all creatures on earth. A few of them tried to supercede GOD and also tried to destabilise the world. GOD had to ensure that these creatures do not wreak havoc. hence the destruction of evil. Anil Jain - Jai Hanuman Where is the question of some one " killing " another, when everyone is " immortal/imperishable " as a law ? Can any sadhak enlighten me, Jee ? So that I may address this question !! Kindly help, Jee ! Jee !! 'Violence' by 'Gods' ! Raam, Raam, Raam !! Mike Bhaiyya ! Pratap Bhaiyya! Sathyanarainji !! Adrien !! Any one Jee ! But quickly Jee !! Will you come to my rescue with reference to 'self' and 'Gitaji' - Jee! Jee ! ! Your sister is too stunned and anxious by the question, Jee ! Who can kill whom Jee ! What do you say Adrien ? Namaste Jee Jee Jee Shashikala ----------------------------- ----------------------------- 1. Hindu gods are to be understood in the same way as the judaic / greek gods. they are manifestations of the self and relate to our own psychological processes. this has been understtood recently in the west as archetypes of the self and forms part of CG jungs analytical psychology. 2. though Hindu gods always seem to be involved in wars (conflict is a better term) hindus are generally characterised as being non- violent and gandhi is one example of this. Majority of the international violence and acts of terrorism these days are related to the middleeast the home of judaism, christianity and islam, not to hinduism, buddhism, jainism, sikhism, taoism or any other pagan tradition. please read 'the god delusion' by richard dawkins for great understanding. Ravi Bakhsi Dear Mr Iyer, Violence is something that you cannot avoid. Tell me when you eat vegetarian food do you not think that those vegetables and rice and dal and other such food also grew which means they had a life. Which means that the vegetables and rice were alive and were killed for your ultimate consumption. That is violence to a lesser degree. What makes you think that violence does not occur everyday? Even when you breathe you kill millions of bacteria that enter your nose and mouth. Let me put it to you that without a section of the population taking the initiative of killing bad elements in any society, others do not have the luxury of being non-violent. hope this helps Prashanth Thirukkonda - Dear spiritual brothers and sisters, Vedas do not advise just non violence but lay emphasis on Non Violence of the strong. Prakrti- the divine subtle Nature which is our Supreme Mother according to Vedas is extremely strong and powerful but largely peaceful and non violent. She provides a Book of Nature which even blind people and even animals/fishes/birds can read and wants us to follow Rts- Her cosmic laws of necessity for our social, moral and physical order. Like any benevolent and loving mother she remains peaceful and affectioante most of the time but gets extremly violent when we flout her Cosmic Laws of Nature and start spreading social, moral and physical evils. Hindu gods (Ishwaras) are Not God- as there is only One universal God for the entire mankind wise men describe Him with different names. All the Hindu gods/goddesses (Ishwaras/devas/devis) are extremely powerful and strong but like Prakrti merciful, benevolent and always keen to ensure that cosmic Laws of nature (Rta) are observed by all her children who are noble people. Thus Hindu Ishwaras/devas/devis are the greatest followers of Non violence of the Strong but get violent if evil is spread in society, environment is polluted and hydra headed CORRUPTION with Nine Heads over takes virtue, ethics, divine thoughts and social nobilty. Incidentally Mahatma Gandhi never talked of Non Violence in a general way but always talked of Non Violence of the Strong. He wanted people of India to become morally, spiritually and physically strong and then non violent. Non violence of the Weak is self destruction. He has greatly emphasised this point in his Biography " My Experiment With Truth " . None of our gods/godesses become violent for the sake of violence but give a very long rope to evil people to change and behave conforming to Vedic Rta but those non divine people (Avarnas/Vritras) who encourage all actions against Laws of Nature and create social, moral and physics pollution strict action is taken by Hindu Ishwras/devas/devis. with kind regards, Prem Sabhlok -- PRIOR POSTING Shree Hari Ram Ram Shri Iyer Bhaiyya, Tell your son simply that to eradicate evil, one has to engage in violence. If your son understands about a scorpion and his sting, then ask him that if a scorpion comes into the house and is running around to sting someone, what would he do? Sometimes, a question posed against a question, can be a better clarifier, than an answer. So be it ! Vineet Sarvottam -------------------------------- Dear Sadhak, According to the Yajnavalkya Samhita, ahimsa or non-violence is the awareness and practice of non-violence in thought, speech and action. Do we practice Non-violence at that lavel ??? Do we not kill mosquitoes, cockroches and so many other so called " harmful being " according to us? What do you say about - Hang till death, cutting hands of a thief and so many other such so called justice orders? All our Puranas have symbolic meaning, they want us to look deep inside us. The war between good and evil is going on inside us only. Do we not need to " kill " our bad thoughts ? Do we call killing of our bad thoughts/demonic qualities as the act of violence ? Who gives power to kill those bad qualities within ? Ya Devi Sarvabhuteshu Shakti rupen sansthita Namstasye, namstasye, Namstasye namo Nama " I bow to the Divine Mother Who resides within me as Power/Strength " Thus MaaDurga-Goddess of Motherly Love, Mother of sur (Demigods/our good qualities) and Asura(Devils/our bad qualities) alike, cannot be blamed as performing violence. She is washing away the evils of Her sons by purifying them through Her divine weapons, and ultimately merging them all in Her own Divine Love. Similarly Lord Shiva, who drank vemon for the welfare of the entire universe, whose another name is Bhole Baba(Innocent God who pleases easily and bless us without considering our good/bad karmas) can not even think of violence. Read more about Him and you will know how merciful is He. We cannot know about our Gods until we know our own self. The Supreme is seated right into our own Heart. Look within, meditate deeply and know Thy Self. Surrender to Gitaji and go beyond the duality of this world. Krishna says- " I am the goal, the sustainer, the master, the witness, the abode, the refuge and the most dear friend. I am the creation and the annihilation, the basis of everything, the resting place and the eternal seed. " Gitaji Ch 9:18 He is All then who is killing whom ? We are not the body, and suffering is all illusion arising from the Nature. If we want to see peace, love and bliss in the world, we have to " BE " peace, love and bliss. There is no other way. There is no Hindu GOD or Christian God. There is only ONE, and that ONE GOD cannot be understood by debate as He is beyond duality, beyond mind, intellect. God can only be experienced. If your son wants to understand Sanatan Dharma, present him with a Gitaji. Read Gitaji over and over again, contemplate on each stanza. Come back and answer your own question. With lots of Love, A sadhika Sadhna Karigar - Dear Sir, We all need to better understand the Hindu philosophy and its message. First of all we need to understand the meaning of non- violence. Does it mean only physical act of killing or harming? No. any act leading to harm or hurt others through thought, word or deed is Non-violence. A physical act of killing in a war with a pure intension of good of the mankind is again not classified as violence. Unfortunately, this thought also is misunderstood, misinterpreted and misused now a days. When a mother slaps a child it is not called violence. because the act originates out of Love. The stories which you are referring to are from an era when evil could be identified as a person. who in many cases knew what is evil or wrong but could not help act in that influence.. that time to remove the evil was to destroy them. Even if you look at the story of Gods killing... you would find that it was the last resort. Even those 'evil' people were given all the possible chances and opportunities to change. Only when they refused to comply and the suffering of good become unbearable the physical act of annihilation was performed, to reinstate the faith, to restore righteousness. It is high time we realize that spirituality is not for weak. it requires Will of Shankra, courage of Vivekanand. Today good and evil have become seen in every person. hence to destroy the evil path of annihilation of the person is not resorted. In todays time the solution is - Transformation of heart. for this the divine beings use various methods. even allowing themselves to suffer. Lets not misinterpret their divine pure act of grace. We are such people who would not hesistate to crucify Jesus and do nothing to stop and fight against but will be first to feel pity after the act is done. we dont want to self introspect why he was crucified. we are just contented to know that he was crucified for our sins. As if the godly people have the obligation to be crucified while we continue on our unjust ways. if you love Jesus then share his pain by being good and just. be open and understanding, be loving towards all. God has given each one enough strength to fight our own battles. be willing to suffer the punishments for the mistake committed, dont pass it on to god or godly people and expect them to suffer for you. I request you to not use such words " hindu gods lose patience " . this thought itself is full of ignorance. First of all know - There is only one GOD and he is omnipresent, omniscience, and omni-potent. What ever God does is for good of all. Even the physical act of so called violence is for the good. it is for us to understand how, when and why he does what he does. Even to qualify to question god we must first become a humble student. then may be the divine wisdom would fall on us to understand and enjoy the bliss of his grace. sai ram Abhimanyu Kaul Sadaks With birth comes death. Mahatma Gandhi fought with weapons he had i.e. none, but you cannot run a country on that philosophy as India found out with China. We must all defend Dharma. This is the best. A persons duty is to live according to Dharma and to defend it. From Ahimsa paramo dharmaha, Dharma himsa tathaiva cha. This Is the full proper statement. Each person has to follow the work according to his caste and station in life. Kshatriyas job is to defend and fight for dharma. This is amply show in Gita, Ramayan, Mahabharat, in FACT THE ONLY HOLY BOOK WRITTEN ON A BATTLE FIELD IS THE GITA. Non violence is the best Dharma, but to attain it HIMSA (violence) is required to defend this is the message. Jayesh A Patel PRIOR POSTING dear brother loves and best wishes. The creator Himself has said in Geeta that the very purpose of His incarnation in human form is to destroy the wicked, to save the righteous. In fact this seems to be one of the necessary divine rule. Moreover non-violence does not mean not to resist evil. thanks. ck kaul ------------------------------- II SHRI HARI II Respected Shri Iyer Ji, One must understand God or Lord, a Prophet and Saint in their respective capacity. Our Gods and Hindu Dharma do not follow the principle of Violence (Hinsa) and in fact, Violence (Hinsa) has no place in any of Hindu scriptures and character of our Gods and Saints. Our scriptures say " Ahinsa Param Dharmo " (Non-violence is the ultimate (basis) of religion). Life (Leela) of our Gods and Saints show no violence whatsoever. To understand this you must go through our scriptures carefully under the guidance of eminent Sdhakas and participate in the Satsang of our great Saints (Sad Gurus). In Sanatan Dharma, there are mainly five Gods (Panch Devas) and only these Panch Devas are worshipped. Although, there are thirty three crore Devi Devtas and they are all the parts of only Panch Devas. In other religions we do not find Gods but the great Saints who are said to be Sons of Gods and sent by God to spread peace and the teachings of Gods. Our religion spreads over infinite time, you can count the origination and time for the others. First of all it is important to understand Ravna, Bali, Kans and numerous other Asur (Rakshasas). All these Asur were God's devotees (Bhaktas) and following the path of Vair (enmity) Bhakti (devotion for enmity). There are two type of devotees (Bhaktas) first Premi Bhaktas (dveotees who love God) and second the Vairi Bhaktas (devotees who keep enmity with God). Purpose of both devotees is same i.e. attainment of God. Ravna and his brother Kumbh Karan both were Jay and Vijay the Door Men (Dwar Pal) of Lord Vishnu's Vaikuntha lok. One day Sanakadik Rishis were going to meet God Vishnu in the Vaikunthalok and Jay and Vijay the Door Men (Dwar Pal) of Lord's Vaikunthalok stopped them at the door saying that they can not enter Vaikuntha without God Vishnu's permission, which was quite surprising as Rishis and Saints do not require permission to enter any of Divya Lokas. Therefore, Sanakadik Rishis got angry over the attitude of Jay and Vijay the Door Men (Dwar Pal) of Lord Vaikuntha and passed on curse (Shraap) to Jay and Vijay to take birth three times in Asuras (Rakshasas). Frightened by the curse (Shraap), Jay and Vijay fell on the lotus feet of Sanakadik Rishis for mercy (Daya) and Lord Vishnu also requested Sanakadik Rishis to show some compassion and Sanakadik Rishis relaxed their curse (Shraap) and told that though Jay and Vijay will take birth in Asur Kul (Rakshasas, Demons) but Lord Vishnu will take reincarnation (Avtaar) for their welfare (Udhar). And Sanakadik Rishis said this will happen likewise (Tthasthu). Accordingly, Jay and Vijay the Door Men (Dwar Pal) of Lord Vishnu's Vekunthalok, took birth in Asur Kul in Treta Yug and Lord Ram took incarnation (Avtaar) for their well being (Udhar). Ravna and his brother Kumbh Karan along with numerous Asurs (demoniac beings) were killed and each of them went to Satlok. In Dwaapar they took birth as Dantvakra and Shishupal, the associates of Kans, and Lord Krishna took incarnation (Avtaar) for their well being (Udhar). Dantvakra and Shishupal along with so many Asurs were killed by Lord Krishna and each of these Asurs (demoniac ones) went to Lord Krishna's dham (abode). When the Jeev gets Lord's Divya Lok on his death, he is called Badbhagi (great in destiny) as he gets Lord's Divya Lok which the Sadhu, saints, Rishi and sadhakas long for. For each of the Lord's incarnation (Avtaar), there are various reasons (Hetu) and to fulfill each of the reason (Hetu) Lord takes incarnation (Avtaar) for the welfare of Lord's devotees (Bhaktas). Ram Charit Manas states " RAM JANAM KE HETU ANEKA, PARAM VICHITRA EK TE EKA " . You can understand these only by participating in the Satsang and by carefully going through and understanding our holy scriptures like Shreemad Bhagwat, Ram Charit Manas, Shiv Mha Puran, Skand Puran, Vedas, Upnishaidas, Shruty and Samrity granthas and even sidh Chalisa like hanuman Chalisa, Durga Chalisa, Shive Chalisa and so on. Perhaps you do not know about the sacrifice of our great Rishis and Saints and that's why you are quoting the example of Jesus. Our Dadhichi Rishi sacrificed his body to give his bones (Asthiyan) to Indra Dev the king of Devtaas to make Vajra from the Rishi's bones (Asthiyan) for killing Vritasur Asur to save the Srishti from demolition. Sanatan Dharma possesses infinite knowledge of the Infinite Lord. No other religion possesses such a large variety of Holy Scriptures. There are four Vedas, 301 Upnishaidas, 18 Puranas, Vedant and enormous Saint Charitar, Saint Vaani, Guru Vaani etc. It is simply enormous! That's why it is stated in Ram Charit Manas " HARI ANANT HARI KATHA ANANTA , KAHI SUNI BAHU VIDHI SAB SANTA " . The Gatha (Katha) of Ananat Bhagwan, the One whose birth and death is not known to any body, the One who is unborn and do not die and the One who is beyond birth and death is INFINITE (Aseem, Athaha)! How can men like us who are definite, limited in life and strength can know his Katha. Sanatan Dharma is a non-violent religion. Do not be misconceived or misguided. Go to Satsang, read our holy scriptures and then only you will be able to express your true quest (Jigyas) for knowledge. May Bhagwan Shree Hari Har satisfy your doubts! Shubham Astu, RAJINDER MOHAN VOHRA -------------------------- Thank you for forwarding this letter. I believe Krishna never resorted to any violence - he tried to protect non-violence. Krishna never advised Arjuna to kill people or resort to violence. Can you show anywhere in GITA Krishna advising a war? Gods are to protect non-violence and to maintain dharma. They are not Saints. Lovingly Dr.Uday Pai -------------------------- Dear Sir: Perhaps Hindu Gods resort to " violence " so that Hindu people stay peaceful. Only Hinduism can create a Gandhi, as you pointed out, the staunches non-violent person. While other religion's God may not appear to be violent, the people of other religion appear to be more violent than Hindus, as can be observed by events today and by events of History. Viz. Followers of a " peaceful " Jesus initiated the Crusades. So maybe there is an inverse relationship between the behavior of Gods and their followers ?? (Based on my understanding, the old testament of the Christians is full of violence. " Slay the idolators, destroy the idols " , " leave no man, woman, child, animals of the enemy alive " to paraphrase some of the writings.) Also, the violence of the Hindu Gods is not mindless violence. There are some people who only listen to violence. For example, the terrorists who are bombing innocent people in India can only be handled thru like minded treatment. Perhaps, publicly blowing up a terrorist in the same place he planted bombs to kill innocent people is the only language he will listen to. So in that sense I wish Hindus would get more aggressive to seek justice. And Dharma requires this. Dilip Bhagat --------------------------- Hare Ram Hare Krishna Dear Sir, Pranam If your question has arisen out of a thirst to understand the God, then I whole heartedly welcome it and try to put my views as below. However if it has arisen with an intention of malice, then it is time to quit all false books/thoughts leading you to such confusions or debates and concentrate only on the divine Gita - the ultimate guide to reach the one and only God. According to the holy Gita, God is the most superior, the ultimate power, the invincible, and is always victorious. The common sense also confirms this, otherwise anyone can defeat God and he/she can become God. Just as living things are created by God, it is His duty to digest them within Himself and give life to new ones to maintain the balance of this universe. This digestion into Himself has happened in many ways - in the form of moksha to the Rushis who had spent a peaceful life worshipping Him throughout their life, in the form of death to those who approached a violent form of life and in several ways. This had been confirmed by the existence of Lord Krishna, who is the ONE and ONLY GOD in this world and Bhagavad Gita is the proof for it. The portraying of victory of good over evil have been depicted as VIOLENT for common man to understand but it is all part of his MAYA ! And remember it was the choice Jaya and Vijaya made to die in the hands of the God Himself three times as evil doers than to be his devotees and wait for the MOKSHA after 6 rebirths. And why do you focus only at these depictions and see it as a physical violence while there are plenty of instances in puranas where God had been so merciful and loving - mokhas to rushis, life to the dead, etc. I hope my explanation will answer you that God doesn't lose patience and resort to violence. Regarding your reference to Jesus, He was a messiah of peace who suffered and died for the people. A God is there to protect the good from evil. If God cannot protect himself in the hands of evil, how can he protect the good from the evil? From my perspectivie it is illogical to think that someone suffered pain in the past for the sins which will be committed by future generations. It should be the other way round. And the existence of Lord Krishna is the best example of the triumph of God over evil or mere mortals. He killed the evil and he was always victorious. He was so merciful to end his incarnation in the hands of his beloved devotee as per his promise in his previous incarnation as Lord Rama. I hope and pray that you and your son will read the divine Gita with a positive mind-set, as all of us should do, and attain Lord Krishna with our good thoughts and deeds. Hare Ram Hare Krishna SRIKANTH MOHAN KETHU --------------------------- Dear Sadak, The statement of Sri Iyer GA that Bagavan Shiva killed Kameswar. Dear Sir, Vayu Bagavan is wind, Varna Bagavan is Rain and so on. The demi gods are having No specific form. They are Pancha Boothas. Kameswar is not GOD or demi God. Kameswar is symbol of desire. Kama + Easwaran-- means Kama desire-- Easwaran ruler. Kameswaran is ruler of desires. Bagavan Shiva killed Kameswar by HIS 3rd eye. We can also kill desires by our 3rd eye Gyana located between 2 eye brows were thilak is put upon. Again-- Kama never leaves anyone by its nature. But it did not work out in case of Bagavan Shiva. Also purana says that Kameswar was given back the power. This Kameswar was sent by Indra to distrub Bagavan Vishnu while doing Yogic Tapas in Badrinath. Kameswar failed in his attempt and Sri Vishnu gave Menaka a very beautiful looking lady as present to Indra through Kameswar. These puranas have hidden concepts. B.Sathyanarayan --------------------------- Evil can not be fought with platitudes. For example if we stand with folded hands before terrorists then they will gain the upper hand. That is what our ancient books teach us. Our Gods fought evil even in Satyug and we should fight evil in Kaliyug too. That is the lesson for us. Even in Christian countries, they have armies and give death sentences to murderers. Remember Iraq and Afghanistan? Hari Shanker Deo ----------------------------- I don't think there should be so much concern about " Hindu " " Gods " . The word Hindu itself is a misnomer, and should not be used to characterize the Bharatyia philosphical traditions. Most linguists will agree that it started with the " Satem/hatem " divide in the IE languages, and the " hatem " group residing outside the geopolitical context of the subcontinent who corrupted Sindhu into Hindu. Sindhu was a part of the " Mahabharatm " of Krishna and not the whole. The Arabs do mention " Hind-va-Sind " in the 7-8th century chronicles, thereby distinguishing and extending the concept from mere " Sindhu " . But no " Hindu " inscriptions use the term until 15th century. There are also many " Gods " . Vishnu descends as avatar, but Shiva does not. The Gods do not always show fairness in their treatment and this is the reason sometimes they have to justify their actions by introducing " past life karma " , something obviously unverifiable by the majority of the commoners. The Ramayana story as popularly rendered omits certain crucial details from the Balmiki version relevant for this topic, like that of why Ravana had to be invited by Rama to perform the rites of initiation ( " Bodhana " ) of Chandi/Durga - the same rites carried out by the avatar of Vishnu to gain ultimate victory over Ravana. Ravana was the best " Brahmin " available (what happened to " caste " - the same " caste " which has even found its way into the Gita as something whose breakdown by the " women " and others leads to eventual destruction of " civilization " and " dharma " - the Asura clan Ravana, who fights and abducts women like the Kshatryias being a Brahmin!) for even Brahma had omitted Gayatri recitation for one " Sandhya " and was unfit as a " yagnik " (lets not go into the actual reason as to why he could not - as it might throw some lights on possible motivations even in this fountainhead of " Brahmanya " revelation). The " Gods " and the " Asuras " both derived from the same " father " , and to start with they were not even " immortal " . They had to coopt the asura " siblings " to extract " amrita " and then needed Vishnu to cheat them of their legitimate share. The Gods get tempted by the beauty of mortal women, like Ahalya, and seduce or rape them. It becomes convenient then later to invent " bad past Karma " to justify such unfair treatment of humans. In this the common Gods do resemble (and were perhaps in reality just deification of actual humans or modeled on the " aristocracy " of the time) the common historical behaviour of elite ruling class. The real strength of Bharatyia philosophy should be sought in a proper analysis and absorption of the Upanishads, the Gita, and the Mahabharatam - the last two being essentially statements on political society and individual's relation with that of the state and the social group. These have little to do with the " Gods " - Gods have minor roles in the Mahabharatam, the original source of the Gita. Gods are just a reflection of humanity, and should not be given so much importance. The Upanishads give a framework very much in compliance with modern science and logic, as to how humans should continue to explore the world around them and continuously update their knowledge - never to be stationary with one ossified belief without continuous requestioning ( " Charaibeti " ). The Mahabharatam and the Gita, edited out of their obvious later " priestly opportunistic addition " of support of unfair and unauthentic practices like " hereditary and for-life varna " gives the guiding principle for social interaction and the nature of the state - a crucial vision of nationhood embodied in this ideal of Krishna. " Gods " are not the primary messages of these core texts - they are mere additions by interested priests to extract benefits from society without contributing in real terms. " dikgajone " --------------------------- Sir, To my limited mind, there are two types of powers SUR (divine) and AASUR (demoniac). And Ishwara (God) also has to adopt the aasura (demoniac) powers in order to destroy the aasuri (demoniac) aspects in a aasur (demoniac) person. A Sur (Virtuous, Divine person) is always of positive behaviour. This is simplest and easiest way to understand. Ram Ji also killed AASURAs (demoniac men) because He is Ishwara (God), Himself, and does not need extra powers to switch between Sur (Divine) and AAsur (Demoniac) properties to accomplish a task. " apb1942 " ---------------------------- PRIOR POSTING Dear sadaks, First about Human-- Man kills man-Why? Enemity, Greed Etc Etc. Animals kill animals only for food. Hindu God never resort to Violence but terminate extremely Bad people for the betterment of human beings at large. Here the Gods benefit nothing, but they act to save human beings at large. It is depicted in such a manner by some that it looks like violence. Kans is maternal uncle of Sri Krishna. Kans jailed his parents, Devaki and Vasudev. Sri Krishna as child left Mathura, but Kans went on sending asuras (demoniac people) to kill Sri Krishna. Asuras came to Krishna from Mathura, but Krishna never went there to kill. In defense Sri Krishna killed Asuras. The sacred truth behind this killing is giving Mukthi (salvation) to them. When God incarnates and kills, it is divine to die in the hands of Bhagavan. Sri Krishna never killed Jarasand though he waged war several times. Duryodhan was not killed though he tried to rope up Krishna who came as messenger for Pandavas. These people were unfit to die in HIS hands. Several warnings were given to Kans to behave himself and since he failed he was killed. Besides Kans was door keeper at Vaikunth as Jaya/Vijaya. Due to ego there they were cursed by Sanakadhi Munis to be born on earth. Actually Kans after being killed went to Vaikunth. Sri Rama was quietly living in the forest, why should Ravana abduct and carry Mother Sita to Lanka? When Ravana lost war and became alone without arms in his hand, Sri Rama said to Ravana Go today think of your sins and come tomorrow. But Ravana came to wage war again knowing that he will be killed. So also other Gods did. Jesus was born as human acquired Gyana between the age 14 to 30 became saint. Normally saints or Sanyasins are forbidden to any type of killing. They allow other to kill them, as it is their knowledge that body alone is being destroyed, but not the Soul (Athuman). When Jesus rose from death with body of wounds it was astrial body (Non Destructable). His disciple never believed Jesus and tested Jesus' wound on his ribs by sending his pointing finger into the wound. This disciple finger is still not perished and remains an exhibit. Demons with strong powers can be killed by Gods only. Now take Maha Lakshmi who incarnated as Sri Andal in Srivalliputtur, was tought by her God father Sri Pria Alwar the good deeds of Sri Krishna. She fell in love with Krishna and wanted to marry Sri Krishna. She took to 30 days Dhanurmasa Vrath and in presence of Chola king and people she was taken abode of Sri Vishnu who gave Dharshan to all with Sanka, Chakra, four Arms Etc on Garuda. Gods appear (Not Born) looks like being born. Sri Krishna was with 108 occult powers when born. To people it looks as being born. Sri Rama or Sri Krishna opted to be kshatriya / yadava not as Brahmin. Brahmins are forbidden to kill. Sanyasin (ascetics) are tought to give in themselves, when someone strikes them. Like Adi Sankara/Buddha/ Christ. B.Sathyanarayan Some of the Demons / Ill-minded souls are hard to change with preachings alone. They have to be physically removed like weeds, because they go beyond repair and are harmful to mankind. Also these characters and killing by GOD need not be taken in the literal sense. To make common people like us to understand, some of these might have been personified, otherwise it is mostly how to control the inner evils like greed/ ego etc to attain divinity " mvssr75 " ------------------------------- -Shree Hari- Dear Iyer GA, What a blessing you have in a son that wants to debate such things with you and visa versa. A respectful correction.Yahweh(Christian/Judaic God) was involved in wholesale slaughter and genocide. When the hard shell around ones spiritual heart is broken, the taste for violence is lost. I am looking forward to the wise council of the Sadhaks. I think this is a very interesting question. With Respect and Divine Love. Mike Keenor -------------------------------- VIOLENCE is when you apply force UNLAWFULLY, SHOURYA is KARTAVYA (Duty) to restore DHARMA Dear Iyer, Lord krishna himself went to Su(Dhur)yodhana and adviced to give back what belonged to Pandavas. Did they heed? So lord had to KILL them to teach this world that if you try to keep that which does not belong to you, it will be disaster. Lord pardons who ever takes asylum in him, kills who goes against him (Nature). Gandhi policy does not apply to all cases. Can we sit in front of afzal guru fasting like Gandhi and make him repent for his attack on parliament? Please try it and then ask why krishna killed Kamsa. You yourself will take a weapon to restore Dharma if your son is hurt by any anti-social element and when they try to do again and again. Using Shourya is kartavya (duty) and is a part of restoring Dharma (righteousness) and shanti (peace). Violence is not a part of Hindu Gods or any body who protects Mother Land. It is called " shourya " Please note if our people in borders chant Om shanti, then bullets come from other side and may hit your chest. So a protector(God or any king/human being like soldier) has to use force to subdue non-social element to restore the civilizaton, else country will be weak and no place for Dharma. Hindu gods showed this ... to be strong and rise to occasion. Save the Dharma even if you have to kill your own brother. Non-violence should be practised but not at all times. HARI OM TATH SATH shiva Kumar shapur Dear Shri Ayer, I too am an old man, vegetarian and certainly non-violent. But I am a devotee of Durga. It is depicted in various forms including Mahishmardani. Similarly other Hindu Gods too may be shown in benevolent forms like Gyatri, Lord Vishnu or Brahma Even Shiva may be depicted in the dance pose. Dear friend you look inside. You will find a conflict going in all the time. Good ultimately prevails. But it is so because of a fight between the God and the devil. So my suggestion is enjoy the fights and always stand by the righteousness. With best wishes. Shridhar Pant -------------------------------- Shreemanji, There is a small anamoly. You say you are a senior citizen and haven't been able to realise the answer to your question in all these years ????? Is there any difference between Bhartiya (Indian/Hindu) and other Gods ? Read the scriptures with an open mind and NOT blind faith or dislike. It has all got to do with human psychology. You will discover the answer yourself. Pranam Sampuran Singh - GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: 1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify their doubts related to Gitaji shlokas. Therefore, responses which further clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be posted. 2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to substantiate your response. 3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas 4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting sadhaka's time. 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only. 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other organizations. 7. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone number, address etc. 8. Please do not address the response to a particular individual since the message is going to the entire group. 9. Due to the large readership, all responses may not be posted. 10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if content is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the group. 11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use to Sanskrit words only, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit bracketed wherever possible. MODERATOR Ram Ram ------------------------ Post message: Subscribe: - Un: - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 11, 2008 Report Share Posted November 11, 2008 Respected Sirs, I am hindu, a senior citizen, vegetarian and a non-violent loving person. Mahatma Gandhi was the staunchest of non-violent human beings. Though every one, violent and non violent alike would like peace prevail in this world VIOLENCE is happening in this world, knowingly or unknowingly. My question is - Why Hindu Gods are depicted to be showing violence (killing or anihilating evil physically)? eg: Lord Krishna Kills Kamsa, Goddess Durga Kills Pandasura and other Asuras, Lord Shiva Kills Kameswar, Lord Rama Kills Ravana and Bali. Lords of other religions do not appear to follow these paths, no matter the extent of the sufferings one has to undergo. Jesus suffered all along, though he too was believed to have had super natural powers. Kindly enlighten me, in the circumstances, why Hindu Gods loose patience and resort to violent killings to eliminate evil? I have to answer my son who debates with me often. Pranams ! Iyer GA -- NEW POSTING If you have some problem in any part of your body, first you try to cure it, but when it becomes incurable it has to be cut off to prevent rest of the body. World is viraat swaroop (Universal Form) of God. All creatures are parts of it. Things become clear when you think from God's point of view. Thanks Raja Gurdasani - Dear Sadhakas, Namaste! Shashikala Bahenji, right you are: " who can kill who " , as all is immortal/imperishable! I guess Sadhakas are answering in the best possible ways they know, because it is to be explained by a father to a son who is asking such questions as he should. Perhaps it is a giant leap to grasp such concept as immortality, which may not be appreciated at this stage in son's life! My short answer is: " when one inquires into deeper meanings of God, Life, Death, Incarnations, (non)Violence, being Hindu, Hindu Gods etc, one may come upon understanding that many questions like this get answered in the satisfactory way " . Now I would teach my son these things, but I didn't know myself when they were growing up! In my experience the best answer to one's question is the disappearance of question itself in the light of understanding question, as J Krishnamurti used to say " Please see that the answer is in the question " . Namaskar..... Pratap Bhatt ----------------------------- Hari Om 'Violence' is a relative term. Basically in the divine play of God, humans enjoy certain liberties of conduct. There are laws governing the entire creation. Humans have immense powers but identification with the mind and body makes them 'desire' for worldly temporary pleasures. Here they come in conflict with another law- desires can never be fulfilled, you can only renounce them. In order to fulfill the desires, one indulges into violence. 'Gods' in order to keep the creation going 'mete out' the results of deeds in an equally violent manner- as you sow, so shall you reap.. In fact, when they do so, they are liberating the souls from darkness. Hence, it is all 'play' , there is no violence, there is only 'mercy', there is only 'love' emanating from the top. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B -------------------------------- Namaste, Sanatana Dharma is not a simplistic/moralistic philosophy where things/ acts are categorised as eternally good or bad. It is the context that determines whether an act is good or bad. consequently when adharma prevails - the destruction/ killing of the 'asuras' is necessary for greater good. To give you an analogy - a knife might be considered as an instrument for violence but it is also necessary for cutting vegetables etc. The oft quoted verse 'ahimsa paramo dharmah' from the Gita is only half of the entire line which concludes with 'dharma himsa tathaiva cha' - himsa is equally valid when used for dharma. Gods in our tradition perpetrated violence against those forces that prevented Truth / dharma from prevailing and therefore cannot be judged in the same tone as those who commit senseless violence. Hope this helps. Shubhamastu Anuradha Choudry -------------------------------- Many Rishis such as 'Balmiki' were masters of weaponry and yet they opted not to fight because they are Brahmins, not authorized to slay but authorized to teach. The TriDev Brahma, Vishnu and Maheswar are in-charge of this universe and they have to do whatever is good for mankind. Manoj Padhi ------------------------------- fellow sadhakaas, namasteji..There is no escape from birth and death cycles..all our prayers wish peace and happiness..three times...But..if you can't defend yourself with vachaa, love..etc..you have to kill by Mantra or sahastra..even God had to exterminate terror by bad elements. Hari Om Vishnu Dada (Vishnu Patel) -- PRIOR POSTING There is only one God. No Hindu God or Muslim God or Christian God. They are all one and the same. Besides all human beings, irrespective of religion have souls whose ultimate destiny is to merge with God or the Parmatma. So to say this God is violent and the other is not is an exercise in futility. Hari Shanker Deo - Dear Mr. Iyer, Gods created all creatures on earth. A few of them tried to supercede GOD and also tried to destabilise the world. GOD had to ensure that these creatures do not wreak havoc. hence the destruction of evil. Anil Jain - Jai Hanuman Where is the question of some one " killing " another, when everyone is " immortal/imperishable " as a law ? Can any sadhak enlighten me, Jee ? So that I may address this question !! Kindly help, Jee ! Jee !! 'Violence' by 'Gods' ! Raam, Raam, Raam !! Mike Bhaiyya ! Pratap Bhaiyya! Sathyanarainji !! Adrien !! Any one Jee ! But quickly Jee !! Will you come to my rescue with reference to 'self' and 'Gitaji' - Jee! Jee ! ! Your sister is too stunned and anxious by the question, Jee ! Who can kill whom Jee ! What do you say Adrien ? Namaste Jee Jee Jee Shashikala ----------------------------- ----------------------------- 1. Hindu gods are to be understood in the same way as the judaic / greek gods. they are manifestations of the self and relate to our own psychological processes. this has been understtood recently in the west as archetypes of the self and forms part of CG jungs analytical psychology. 2. though Hindu gods always seem to be involved in wars (conflict is a better term) hindus are generally characterised as being non- violent and gandhi is one example of this. Majority of the international violence and acts of terrorism these days are related to the middleeast the home of judaism, christianity and islam, not to hinduism, buddhism, jainism, sikhism, taoism or any other pagan tradition. please read 'the god delusion' by richard dawkins for great understanding. Ravi Bakhsi Dear Mr Iyer, Violence is something that you cannot avoid. Tell me when you eat vegetarian food do you not think that those vegetables and rice and dal and other such food also grew which means they had a life. Which means that the vegetables and rice were alive and were killed for your ultimate consumption. That is violence to a lesser degree. What makes you think that violence does not occur everyday? Even when you breathe you kill millions of bacteria that enter your nose and mouth. Let me put it to you that without a section of the population taking the initiative of killing bad elements in any society, others do not have the luxury of being non-violent. hope this helps Prashanth Thirukkonda - Dear spiritual brothers and sisters, Vedas do not advise just non violence but lay emphasis on Non Violence of the strong. Prakrti- the divine subtle Nature which is our Supreme Mother according to Vedas is extremely strong and powerful but largely peaceful and non violent. She provides a Book of Nature which even blind people and even animals/fishes/birds can read and wants us to follow Rts- Her cosmic laws of necessity for our social, moral and physical order. Like any benevolent and loving mother she remains peaceful and affectioante most of the time but gets extremly violent when we flout her Cosmic Laws of Nature and start spreading social, moral and physical evils. Hindu gods (Ishwaras) are Not God- as there is only One universal God for the entire mankind wise men describe Him with different names. All the Hindu gods/goddesses (Ishwaras/devas/devis) are extremely powerful and strong but like Prakrti merciful, benevolent and always keen to ensure that cosmic Laws of nature (Rta) are observed by all her children who are noble people. Thus Hindu Ishwaras/devas/devis are the greatest followers of Non violence of the Strong but get violent if evil is spread in society, environment is polluted and hydra headed CORRUPTION with Nine Heads over takes virtue, ethics, divine thoughts and social nobilty. Incidentally Mahatma Gandhi never talked of Non Violence in a general way but always talked of Non Violence of the Strong. He wanted people of India to become morally, spiritually and physically strong and then non violent. Non violence of the Weak is self destruction. He has greatly emphasised this point in his Biography " My Experiment With Truth " . None of our gods/godesses become violent for the sake of violence but give a very long rope to evil people to change and behave conforming to Vedic Rta but those non divine people (Avarnas/Vritras) who encourage all actions against Laws of Nature and create social, moral and physics pollution strict action is taken by Hindu Ishwras/devas/devis. with kind regards, Prem Sabhlok -- PRIOR POSTING Shree Hari Ram Ram Shri Iyer Bhaiyya, Tell your son simply that to eradicate evil, one has to engage in violence. If your son understands about a scorpion and his sting, then ask him that if a scorpion comes into the house and is running around to sting someone, what would he do? Sometimes, a question posed against a question, can be a better clarifier, than an answer. So be it ! Vineet Sarvottam -------------------------------- Dear Sadhak, According to the Yajnavalkya Samhita, ahimsa or non-violence is the awareness and practice of non-violence in thought, speech and action. Do we practice Non-violence at that lavel ??? Do we not kill mosquitoes, cockroches and so many other so called " harmful being " according to us? What do you say about - Hang till death, cutting hands of a thief and so many other such so called justice orders? All our Puranas have symbolic meaning, they want us to look deep inside us. The war between good and evil is going on inside us only. Do we not need to " kill " our bad thoughts ? Do we call killing of our bad thoughts/demonic qualities as the act of violence ? Who gives power to kill those bad qualities within ? Ya Devi Sarvabhuteshu Shakti rupen sansthita Namstasye, namstasye, Namstasye namo Nama " I bow to the Divine Mother Who resides within me as Power/Strength " Thus MaaDurga-Goddess of Motherly Love, Mother of sur (Demigods/our good qualities) and Asura(Devils/our bad qualities) alike, cannot be blamed as performing violence. She is washing away the evils of Her sons by purifying them through Her divine weapons, and ultimately merging them all in Her own Divine Love. Similarly Lord Shiva, who drank vemon for the welfare of the entire universe, whose another name is Bhole Baba(Innocent God who pleases easily and bless us without considering our good/bad karmas) can not even think of violence. Read more about Him and you will know how merciful is He. We cannot know about our Gods until we know our own self. The Supreme is seated right into our own Heart. Look within, meditate deeply and know Thy Self. Surrender to Gitaji and go beyond the duality of this world. Krishna says- " I am the goal, the sustainer, the master, the witness, the abode, the refuge and the most dear friend. I am the creation and the annihilation, the basis of everything, the resting place and the eternal seed. " Gitaji Ch 9:18 He is All then who is killing whom ? We are not the body, and suffering is all illusion arising from the Nature. If we want to see peace, love and bliss in the world, we have to " BE " peace, love and bliss. There is no other way. There is no Hindu GOD or Christian God. There is only ONE, and that ONE GOD cannot be understood by debate as He is beyond duality, beyond mind, intellect. God can only be experienced. If your son wants to understand Sanatan Dharma, present him with a Gitaji. Read Gitaji over and over again, contemplate on each stanza. Come back and answer your own question. With lots of Love, A sadhika Sadhna Karigar - Dear Sir, We all need to better understand the Hindu philosophy and its message. First of all we need to understand the meaning of non- violence. Does it mean only physical act of killing or harming? No. any act leading to harm or hurt others through thought, word or deed is Non-violence. A physical act of killing in a war with a pure intension of good of the mankind is again not classified as violence. Unfortunately, this thought also is misunderstood, misinterpreted and misused now a days. When a mother slaps a child it is not called violence. because the act originates out of Love. The stories which you are referring to are from an era when evil could be identified as a person. who in many cases knew what is evil or wrong but could not help act in that influence.. that time to remove the evil was to destroy them. Even if you look at the story of Gods killing... you would find that it was the last resort. Even those 'evil' people were given all the possible chances and opportunities to change. Only when they refused to comply and the suffering of good become unbearable the physical act of annihilation was performed, to reinstate the faith, to restore righteousness. It is high time we realize that spirituality is not for weak. it requires Will of Shankra, courage of Vivekanand. Today good and evil have become seen in every person. hence to destroy the evil path of annihilation of the person is not resorted. In todays time the solution is - Transformation of heart. for this the divine beings use various methods. even allowing themselves to suffer. Lets not misinterpret their divine pure act of grace. We are such people who would not hesistate to crucify Jesus and do nothing to stop and fight against but will be first to feel pity after the act is done. we dont want to self introspect why he was crucified. we are just contented to know that he was crucified for our sins. As if the godly people have the obligation to be crucified while we continue on our unjust ways. if you love Jesus then share his pain by being good and just. be open and understanding, be loving towards all. God has given each one enough strength to fight our own battles. be willing to suffer the punishments for the mistake committed, dont pass it on to god or godly people and expect them to suffer for you. I request you to not use such words " hindu gods lose patience " . this thought itself is full of ignorance. First of all know - There is only one GOD and he is omnipresent, omniscience, and omni-potent. What ever God does is for good of all. Even the physical act of so called violence is for the good. it is for us to understand how, when and why he does what he does. Even to qualify to question god we must first become a humble student. then may be the divine wisdom would fall on us to understand and enjoy the bliss of his grace. sai ram Abhimanyu Kaul Sadaks With birth comes death. Mahatma Gandhi fought with weapons he had i.e. none, but you cannot run a country on that philosophy as India found out with China. We must all defend Dharma. This is the best. A persons duty is to live according to Dharma and to defend it. From Ahimsa paramo dharmaha, Dharma himsa tathaiva cha. This Is the full proper statement. Each person has to follow the work according to his caste and station in life. Kshatriyas job is to defend and fight for dharma. This is amply show in Gita, Ramayan, Mahabharat, in FACT THE ONLY HOLY BOOK WRITTEN ON A BATTLE FIELD IS THE GITA. Non violence is the best Dharma, but to attain it HIMSA (violence) is required to defend this is the message. Jayesh A Patel PRIOR POSTING dear brother loves and best wishes. The creator Himself has said in Geeta that the very purpose of His incarnation in human form is to destroy the wicked, to save the righteous. In fact this seems to be one of the necessary divine rule. Moreover non-violence does not mean not to resist evil. thanks. ck kaul ------------------------------- II SHRI HARI II Respected Shri Iyer Ji, One must understand God or Lord, a Prophet and Saint in their respective capacity. Our Gods and Hindu Dharma do not follow the principle of Violence (Hinsa) and in fact, Violence (Hinsa) has no place in any of Hindu scriptures and character of our Gods and Saints. Our scriptures say " Ahinsa Param Dharmo " (Non-violence is the ultimate (basis) of religion). Life (Leela) of our Gods and Saints show no violence whatsoever. To understand this you must go through our scriptures carefully under the guidance of eminent Sdhakas and participate in the Satsang of our great Saints (Sad Gurus). In Sanatan Dharma, there are mainly five Gods (Panch Devas) and only these Panch Devas are worshipped. Although, there are thirty three crore Devi Devtas and they are all the parts of only Panch Devas. In other religions we do not find Gods but the great Saints who are said to be Sons of Gods and sent by God to spread peace and the teachings of Gods. Our religion spreads over infinite time, you can count the origination and time for the others. First of all it is important to understand Ravna, Bali, Kans and numerous other Asur (Rakshasas). All these Asur were God's devotees (Bhaktas) and following the path of Vair (enmity) Bhakti (devotion for enmity). There are two type of devotees (Bhaktas) first Premi Bhaktas (dveotees who love God) and second the Vairi Bhaktas (devotees who keep enmity with God). Purpose of both devotees is same i.e. attainment of God. Ravna and his brother Kumbh Karan both were Jay and Vijay the Door Men (Dwar Pal) of Lord Vishnu's Vaikuntha lok. One day Sanakadik Rishis were going to meet God Vishnu in the Vaikunthalok and Jay and Vijay the Door Men (Dwar Pal) of Lord's Vaikunthalok stopped them at the door saying that they can not enter Vaikuntha without God Vishnu's permission, which was quite surprising as Rishis and Saints do not require permission to enter any of Divya Lokas. Therefore, Sanakadik Rishis got angry over the attitude of Jay and Vijay the Door Men (Dwar Pal) of Lord Vaikuntha and passed on curse (Shraap) to Jay and Vijay to take birth three times in Asuras (Rakshasas). Frightened by the curse (Shraap), Jay and Vijay fell on the lotus feet of Sanakadik Rishis for mercy (Daya) and Lord Vishnu also requested Sanakadik Rishis to show some compassion and Sanakadik Rishis relaxed their curse (Shraap) and told that though Jay and Vijay will take birth in Asur Kul (Rakshasas, Demons) but Lord Vishnu will take reincarnation (Avtaar) for their welfare (Udhar). And Sanakadik Rishis said this will happen likewise (Tthasthu). Accordingly, Jay and Vijay the Door Men (Dwar Pal) of Lord Vishnu's Vekunthalok, took birth in Asur Kul in Treta Yug and Lord Ram took incarnation (Avtaar) for their well being (Udhar). Ravna and his brother Kumbh Karan along with numerous Asurs (demoniac beings) were killed and each of them went to Satlok. In Dwaapar they took birth as Dantvakra and Shishupal, the associates of Kans, and Lord Krishna took incarnation (Avtaar) for their well being (Udhar). Dantvakra and Shishupal along with so many Asurs were killed by Lord Krishna and each of these Asurs (demoniac ones) went to Lord Krishna's dham (abode). When the Jeev gets Lord's Divya Lok on his death, he is called Badbhagi (great in destiny) as he gets Lord's Divya Lok which the Sadhu, saints, Rishi and sadhakas long for. For each of the Lord's incarnation (Avtaar), there are various reasons (Hetu) and to fulfill each of the reason (Hetu) Lord takes incarnation (Avtaar) for the welfare of Lord's devotees (Bhaktas). Ram Charit Manas states " RAM JANAM KE HETU ANEKA, PARAM VICHITRA EK TE EKA " . You can understand these only by participating in the Satsang and by carefully going through and understanding our holy scriptures like Shreemad Bhagwat, Ram Charit Manas, Shiv Mha Puran, Skand Puran, Vedas, Upnishaidas, Shruty and Samrity granthas and even sidh Chalisa like hanuman Chalisa, Durga Chalisa, Shive Chalisa and so on. Perhaps you do not know about the sacrifice of our great Rishis and Saints and that's why you are quoting the example of Jesus. Our Dadhichi Rishi sacrificed his body to give his bones (Asthiyan) to Indra Dev the king of Devtaas to make Vajra from the Rishi's bones (Asthiyan) for killing Vritasur Asur to save the Srishti from demolition. Sanatan Dharma possesses infinite knowledge of the Infinite Lord. No other religion possesses such a large variety of Holy Scriptures. There are four Vedas, 301 Upnishaidas, 18 Puranas, Vedant and enormous Saint Charitar, Saint Vaani, Guru Vaani etc. It is simply enormous! That's why it is stated in Ram Charit Manas " HARI ANANT HARI KATHA ANANTA , KAHI SUNI BAHU VIDHI SAB SANTA " . The Gatha (Katha) of Ananat Bhagwan, the One whose birth and death is not known to any body, the One who is unborn and do not die and the One who is beyond birth and death is INFINITE (Aseem, Athaha)! How can men like us who are definite, limited in life and strength can know his Katha. Sanatan Dharma is a non-violent religion. Do not be misconceived or misguided. Go to Satsang, read our holy scriptures and then only you will be able to express your true quest (Jigyas) for knowledge. May Bhagwan Shree Hari Har satisfy your doubts! Shubham Astu, RAJINDER MOHAN VOHRA -------------------------- Thank you for forwarding this letter. I believe Krishna never resorted to any violence - he tried to protect non-violence. Krishna never advised Arjuna to kill people or resort to violence. Can you show anywhere in GITA Krishna advising a war? Gods are to protect non-violence and to maintain dharma. They are not Saints. Lovingly Dr.Uday Pai -------------------------- Dear Sir: Perhaps Hindu Gods resort to " violence " so that Hindu people stay peaceful. Only Hinduism can create a Gandhi, as you pointed out, the staunches non-violent person. While other religion's God may not appear to be violent, the people of other religion appear to be more violent than Hindus, as can be observed by events today and by events of History. Viz. Followers of a " peaceful " Jesus initiated the Crusades. So maybe there is an inverse relationship between the behavior of Gods and their followers ?? (Based on my understanding, the old testament of the Christians is full of violence. " Slay the idolators, destroy the idols " , " leave no man, woman, child, animals of the enemy alive " to paraphrase some of the writings.) Also, the violence of the Hindu Gods is not mindless violence. There are some people who only listen to violence. For example, the terrorists who are bombing innocent people in India can only be handled thru like minded treatment. Perhaps, publicly blowing up a terrorist in the same place he planted bombs to kill innocent people is the only language he will listen to. So in that sense I wish Hindus would get more aggressive to seek justice. And Dharma requires this. Dilip Bhagat --------------------------- Hare Ram Hare Krishna Dear Sir, Pranam If your question has arisen out of a thirst to understand the God, then I whole heartedly welcome it and try to put my views as below. However if it has arisen with an intention of malice, then it is time to quit all false books/thoughts leading you to such confusions or debates and concentrate only on the divine Gita - the ultimate guide to reach the one and only God. According to the holy Gita, God is the most superior, the ultimate power, the invincible, and is always victorious. The common sense also confirms this, otherwise anyone can defeat God and he/she can become God. Just as living things are created by God, it is His duty to digest them within Himself and give life to new ones to maintain the balance of this universe. This digestion into Himself has happened in many ways - in the form of moksha to the Rushis who had spent a peaceful life worshipping Him throughout their life, in the form of death to those who approached a violent form of life and in several ways. This had been confirmed by the existence of Lord Krishna, who is the ONE and ONLY GOD in this world and Bhagavad Gita is the proof for it. The portraying of victory of good over evil have been depicted as VIOLENT for common man to understand but it is all part of his MAYA ! And remember it was the choice Jaya and Vijaya made to die in the hands of the God Himself three times as evil doers than to be his devotees and wait for the MOKSHA after 6 rebirths. And why do you focus only at these depictions and see it as a physical violence while there are plenty of instances in puranas where God had been so merciful and loving - mokhas to rushis, life to the dead, etc. I hope my explanation will answer you that God doesn't lose patience and resort to violence. Regarding your reference to Jesus, He was a messiah of peace who suffered and died for the people. A God is there to protect the good from evil. If God cannot protect himself in the hands of evil, how can he protect the good from the evil? From my perspectivie it is illogical to think that someone suffered pain in the past for the sins which will be committed by future generations. It should be the other way round. And the existence of Lord Krishna is the best example of the triumph of God over evil or mere mortals. He killed the evil and he was always victorious. He was so merciful to end his incarnation in the hands of his beloved devotee as per his promise in his previous incarnation as Lord Rama. I hope and pray that you and your son will read the divine Gita with a positive mind-set, as all of us should do, and attain Lord Krishna with our good thoughts and deeds. Hare Ram Hare Krishna SRIKANTH MOHAN KETHU --------------------------- Dear Sadak, The statement of Sri Iyer GA that Bagavan Shiva killed Kameswar. Dear Sir, Vayu Bagavan is wind, Varna Bagavan is Rain and so on. The demi gods are having No specific form. They are Pancha Boothas. Kameswar is not GOD or demi God. Kameswar is symbol of desire. Kama + Easwaran-- means Kama desire-- Easwaran ruler. Kameswaran is ruler of desires. Bagavan Shiva killed Kameswar by HIS 3rd eye. We can also kill desires by our 3rd eye Gyana located between 2 eye brows were thilak is put upon. Again-- Kama never leaves anyone by its nature. But it did not work out in case of Bagavan Shiva. Also purana says that Kameswar was given back the power. This Kameswar was sent by Indra to distrub Bagavan Vishnu while doing Yogic Tapas in Badrinath. Kameswar failed in his attempt and Sri Vishnu gave Menaka a very beautiful looking lady as present to Indra through Kameswar. These puranas have hidden concepts. B.Sathyanarayan --------------------------- Evil can not be fought with platitudes. For example if we stand with folded hands before terrorists then they will gain the upper hand. That is what our ancient books teach us. Our Gods fought evil even in Satyug and we should fight evil in Kaliyug too. That is the lesson for us. Even in Christian countries, they have armies and give death sentences to murderers. Remember Iraq and Afghanistan? Hari Shanker Deo ----------------------------- I don't think there should be so much concern about " Hindu " " Gods " . The word Hindu itself is a misnomer, and should not be used to characterize the Bharatyia philosphical traditions. Most linguists will agree that it started with the " Satem/hatem " divide in the IE languages, and the " hatem " group residing outside the geopolitical context of the subcontinent who corrupted Sindhu into Hindu. Sindhu was a part of the " Mahabharatm " of Krishna and not the whole. The Arabs do mention " Hind-va-Sind " in the 7-8th century chronicles, thereby distinguishing and extending the concept from mere " Sindhu " . But no " Hindu " inscriptions use the term until 15th century. There are also many " Gods " . Vishnu descends as avatar, but Shiva does not. The Gods do not always show fairness in their treatment and this is the reason sometimes they have to justify their actions by introducing " past life karma " , something obviously unverifiable by the majority of the commoners. The Ramayana story as popularly rendered omits certain crucial details from the Balmiki version relevant for this topic, like that of why Ravana had to be invited by Rama to perform the rites of initiation ( " Bodhana " ) of Chandi/Durga - the same rites carried out by the avatar of Vishnu to gain ultimate victory over Ravana. Ravana was the best " Brahmin " available (what happened to " caste " - the same " caste " which has even found its way into the Gita as something whose breakdown by the " women " and others leads to eventual destruction of " civilization " and " dharma " - the Asura clan Ravana, who fights and abducts women like the Kshatryias being a Brahmin!) for even Brahma had omitted Gayatri recitation for one " Sandhya " and was unfit as a " yagnik " (lets not go into the actual reason as to why he could not - as it might throw some lights on possible motivations even in this fountainhead of " Brahmanya " revelation). The " Gods " and the " Asuras " both derived from the same " father " , and to start with they were not even " immortal " . They had to coopt the asura " siblings " to extract " amrita " and then needed Vishnu to cheat them of their legitimate share. The Gods get tempted by the beauty of mortal women, like Ahalya, and seduce or rape them. It becomes convenient then later to invent " bad past Karma " to justify such unfair treatment of humans. In this the common Gods do resemble (and were perhaps in reality just deification of actual humans or modeled on the " aristocracy " of the time) the common historical behaviour of elite ruling class. The real strength of Bharatyia philosophy should be sought in a proper analysis and absorption of the Upanishads, the Gita, and the Mahabharatam - the last two being essentially statements on political society and individual's relation with that of the state and the social group. These have little to do with the " Gods " - Gods have minor roles in the Mahabharatam, the original source of the Gita. Gods are just a reflection of humanity, and should not be given so much importance. The Upanishads give a framework very much in compliance with modern science and logic, as to how humans should continue to explore the world around them and continuously update their knowledge - never to be stationary with one ossified belief without continuous requestioning ( " Charaibeti " ). The Mahabharatam and the Gita, edited out of their obvious later " priestly opportunistic addition " of support of unfair and unauthentic practices like " hereditary and for-life varna " gives the guiding principle for social interaction and the nature of the state - a crucial vision of nationhood embodied in this ideal of Krishna. " Gods " are not the primary messages of these core texts - they are mere additions by interested priests to extract benefits from society without contributing in real terms. " dikgajone " --------------------------- Sir, To my limited mind, there are two types of powers SUR (divine) and AASUR (demoniac). And Ishwara (God) also has to adopt the aasura (demoniac) powers in order to destroy the aasuri (demoniac) aspects in a aasur (demoniac) person. A Sur (Virtuous, Divine person) is always of positive behaviour. This is simplest and easiest way to understand. Ram Ji also killed AASURAs (demoniac men) because He is Ishwara (God), Himself, and does not need extra powers to switch between Sur (Divine) and AAsur (Demoniac) properties to accomplish a task. " apb1942 " ---------------------------- PRIOR POSTING Dear sadaks, First about Human-- Man kills man-Why? Enemity, Greed Etc Etc. Animals kill animals only for food. Hindu God never resort to Violence but terminate extremely Bad people for the betterment of human beings at large. Here the Gods benefit nothing, but they act to save human beings at large. It is depicted in such a manner by some that it looks like violence. Kans is maternal uncle of Sri Krishna. Kans jailed his parents, Devaki and Vasudev. Sri Krishna as child left Mathura, but Kans went on sending asuras (demoniac people) to kill Sri Krishna. Asuras came to Krishna from Mathura, but Krishna never went there to kill. In defense Sri Krishna killed Asuras. The sacred truth behind this killing is giving Mukthi (salvation) to them. When God incarnates and kills, it is divine to die in the hands of Bhagavan. Sri Krishna never killed Jarasand though he waged war several times. Duryodhan was not killed though he tried to rope up Krishna who came as messenger for Pandavas. These people were unfit to die in HIS hands. Several warnings were given to Kans to behave himself and since he failed he was killed. Besides Kans was door keeper at Vaikunth as Jaya/Vijaya. Due to ego there they were cursed by Sanakadhi Munis to be born on earth. Actually Kans after being killed went to Vaikunth. Sri Rama was quietly living in the forest, why should Ravana abduct and carry Mother Sita to Lanka? When Ravana lost war and became alone without arms in his hand, Sri Rama said to Ravana Go today think of your sins and come tomorrow. But Ravana came to wage war again knowing that he will be killed. So also other Gods did. Jesus was born as human acquired Gyana between the age 14 to 30 became saint. Normally saints or Sanyasins are forbidden to any type of killing. They allow other to kill them, as it is their knowledge that body alone is being destroyed, but not the Soul (Athuman). When Jesus rose from death with body of wounds it was astrial body (Non Destructable). His disciple never believed Jesus and tested Jesus' wound on his ribs by sending his pointing finger into the wound. This disciple finger is still not perished and remains an exhibit. Demons with strong powers can be killed by Gods only. Now take Maha Lakshmi who incarnated as Sri Andal in Srivalliputtur, was tought by her God father Sri Pria Alwar the good deeds of Sri Krishna. She fell in love with Krishna and wanted to marry Sri Krishna. She took to 30 days Dhanurmasa Vrath and in presence of Chola king and people she was taken abode of Sri Vishnu who gave Dharshan to all with Sanka, Chakra, four Arms Etc on Garuda. Gods appear (Not Born) looks like being born. Sri Krishna was with 108 occult powers when born. To people it looks as being born. Sri Rama or Sri Krishna opted to be kshatriya / yadava not as Brahmin. Brahmins are forbidden to kill. Sanyasin (ascetics) are tought to give in themselves, when someone strikes them. Like Adi Sankara/Buddha/ Christ. B.Sathyanarayan Some of the Demons / Ill-minded souls are hard to change with preachings alone. They have to be physically removed like weeds, because they go beyond repair and are harmful to mankind. Also these characters and killing by GOD need not be taken in the literal sense. To make common people like us to understand, some of these might have been personified, otherwise it is mostly how to control the inner evils like greed/ ego etc to attain divinity " mvssr75 " ------------------------------- -Shree Hari- Dear Iyer GA, What a blessing you have in a son that wants to debate such things with you and visa versa. A respectful correction.Yahweh(Christian/Judaic God) was involved in wholesale slaughter and genocide. When the hard shell around ones spiritual heart is broken, the taste for violence is lost. I am looking forward to the wise council of the Sadhaks. I think this is a very interesting question. With Respect and Divine Love. Mike Keenor -------------------------------- VIOLENCE is when you apply force UNLAWFULLY, SHOURYA is KARTAVYA (Duty) to restore DHARMA Dear Iyer, Lord krishna himself went to Su(Dhur)yodhana and adviced to give back what belonged to Pandavas. Did they heed? So lord had to KILL them to teach this world that if you try to keep that which does not belong to you, it will be disaster. Lord pardons who ever takes asylum in him, kills who goes against him (Nature). Gandhi policy does not apply to all cases. Can we sit in front of afzal guru fasting like Gandhi and make him repent for his attack on parliament? Please try it and then ask why krishna killed Kamsa. You yourself will take a weapon to restore Dharma if your son is hurt by any anti-social element and when they try to do again and again. Using Shourya is kartavya (duty) and is a part of restoring Dharma (righteousness) and shanti (peace). Violence is not a part of Hindu Gods or any body who protects Mother Land. It is called " shourya " Please note if our people in borders chant Om shanti, then bullets come from other side and may hit your chest. So a protector(God or any king/human being like soldier) has to use force to subdue non-social element to restore the civilizaton, else country will be weak and no place for Dharma. Hindu gods showed this ... to be strong and rise to occasion. Save the Dharma even if you have to kill your own brother. Non-violence should be practised but not at all times. HARI OM TATH SATH shiva Kumar shapur Dear Shri Ayer, I too am an old man, vegetarian and certainly non-violent. But I am a devotee of Durga. It is depicted in various forms including Mahishmardani. Similarly other Hindu Gods too may be shown in benevolent forms like Gyatri, Lord Vishnu or Brahma Even Shiva may be depicted in the dance pose. Dear friend you look inside. You will find a conflict going in all the time. Good ultimately prevails. But it is so because of a fight between the God and the devil. So my suggestion is enjoy the fights and always stand by the righteousness. With best wishes. Shridhar Pant -------------------------------- Shreemanji, There is a small anamoly. You say you are a senior citizen and haven't been able to realise the answer to your question in all these years ????? Is there any difference between Bhartiya (Indian/Hindu) and other Gods ? Read the scriptures with an open mind and NOT blind faith or dislike. It has all got to do with human psychology. You will discover the answer yourself. Pranam Sampuran Singh - GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: 1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify their doubts related to Gitaji shlokas. Therefore, responses which further clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be posted. 2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to substantiate your response. 3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas 4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting sadhaka's time. 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only. 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other organizations. 7. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone number, address etc. 8. Please do not address the response to a particular individual since the message is going to the entire group. 9. Due to the large readership, all responses may not be posted. 10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if content is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the group. 11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use to Sanskrit words only, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit bracketed wherever possible. MODERATOR Ram Ram ------------------------ Post message: Subscribe: - Un: - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 12, 2008 Report Share Posted November 12, 2008 Respected Sirs, I am hindu, a senior citizen, vegetarian and a non-violent loving person. Mahatma Gandhi was the staunchest of non-violent human beings. Though every one, violent and non violent alike would like peace prevail in this world VIOLENCE is happening in this world, knowingly or unknowingly. My question is - Why Hindu Gods are depicted to be showing violence (killing or anihilating evil physically)? eg: Lord Krishna Kills Kamsa, Goddess Durga Kills Pandasura and other Asuras, Lord Shiva Kills Kameswar, Lord Rama Kills Ravana and Bali. Lords of other religions do not appear to follow these paths, no matter the extent of the sufferings one has to undergo. Jesus suffered all along, though he too was believed to have had super natural powers. Kindly enlighten me, in the circumstances, why Hindu Gods loose patience and resort to violent killings to eliminate evil? I have to answer my son who debates with me often. Pranams ! Iyer GA -- NEW POSTING Dear Shri Iyer: Namaskaram with respects. Hindu concept of Dharma, according to my feeble understanding, makes a distinction between violence required by one's duties, and violence done mindlessly or to seek pleasure. When a king punishes a criminal, it is done to prevent further crime, and is therefore not himsa. The distinction between himsa and ahimsa is very nicely explained in Mahabharat at several places. To my mind, the present confusion is due to advocacy of extreme ahimsa by Gandhi ji. This led to a mixing of personal dharma of an ordinary citizen with that of raj dharma of the state and the king. Gandhi ji's interpretation of ahimsa is valid only in satyuga. How would you deal with Somalian pirates by using ahimsa? Gandhiji's ahimsa itself succeeded perhaps only once – against the British. It failed against others. Further, while Hindu gods are shown armed to the teeth, Hindus themselves have remained relatively peace oriented. In other systems, the Gods have been depicted as peaceful, but the followers have been very violent. Therefore, my view is that the symbolic arming of Hindu gods is aspirational (as is the peaceful depiction in other systems), as a means to encourage Hindus to be a little more war-like. Secondly, the violence by the Hindu deities has almost always been in response to the needs of the people, and not out of spite or anger. Hope this is useful, Sanjay Agarawal - Here in the UK, we have been considering this issue for some time. During the last 2 to 3 years, we have had Christian priests telling us that Hindu faith and its gods are violent and preach violence – `look at the pictures of your gods!', they say. The letter from Shree G A Iyer thus rang de ja vu-bells for me. 1. The paintings and other depictions of Hindu divinities are the work of artists who have enjoyed, and continue to enjoy, the freedom of artistic expression their faith community has traditionally granted them. Nowhere in the scriptures is it decreed that we have to paint pictures of gods/goddesses nor that we have to show gods/goddesses carrying weapons. But to-date no one has questioned why we undertake such depictions. 2. Islam forbids artistic expressions of anything divine, or of Muhammed. Christians actively depict Christ, but only in a peaceful/suffering pose. 3. If we bear in mind that what we are being told today through revised editions and mis-translations of scriptures of faiths is somewhat different from the original scriptures, the artistic stereotyping may not necessarily correspond to the actual `life- history' of the concerned figures and their teachings. 4. Christians believe that Christ was the son of God, but he was unable to stop injustice and cruelty and gave his life in the process. That is their belief. Hindus believe in incarnation of the divine who uses supernatural powers as a last resort to destroy evil. This is not to be equated with the concept of `violence' in the ordinary human terms. Once the order is restored and the righteous victims of evil are liberated from the tyranny of the evil-doer, the avatar no longer resorts to the so-called `violence' and returns to the normal benevolent peaceful form. Our scriptures describe God as the source of bliss and auspiciousness, the avatar coming to protect devotees, to restore righteousness, and order to nature and cosmos when such is threatened. 5. Faiths should be judged i) on the basis not of propaganda but on what is actually written in their scriptures, and ii) on the actions of the faith communities. Contrast Hindus [and their record of non- aggression against other countries and against other faiths – even of giving sanctuary to those faiths fleeing persecution elsewhere – Jews, Parsees, Assyrian Christians], with the followers of other faiths who have acted to decimate other faith-based civilisations and committed genocides in India, Americas, Australia, etc. etc., almost succeeding in wiping out various civilisations and races. Nevertheless, in an age when artistic depiction is misused for anti- Hindu propaganda as mentioned, Hindus have to reflect and ask whether such artistic depiction is doing harm to how their faith/culture is being perceived by others and by their youth, and whether we should advise against such depictions. Unfortunately this is easier said than done. How do you persuade those who make money out of this industry to cease such activities? Time to reflect. Girdhari - Namaste Sadhakas.. Sumangal Suprabhat... As per my belief in our hindu religion, there is only one God " Parmatma " . All the names you noted like Shri Rama, Krishna, Durga etc. are its " Ansha " who took birth as Human being to taught us about " Dharma " & to spread " Peace & Love " . Param Parmatma created this beautiful Earth/Shrushti for us. He is controlling us. If someone is not following his 'Rules of life' and troubling others. He / she must get punished for others well-being & to keep Peace in the world. Example : If you have a box of fruits & one of them get spoiled what you will do..?? You will remove that spoiled fruit so that other fruits will remain good otherwise that one fruit will spoil others. Thanks Satish Pawaskar Keep Smiling Always ;-) India ------------------------------ God is suddha, buddha, muktha swaroopa. For killing somebody, one has to get angry. (krodha) God does not get krodha. (If it becomes angry, none of us will be thre.) To kill somebody, you have to get angry. Only, we become angry and therefore we cannot be God. Krodha is the resultant of Kaama (Aasakthi). When you slap your son, does he start praising you...? does he get Aananda. Rama never killed Ravana. Ravana is described as Moha (Aasakthi). Rama killed only the Aasakthi which was there in Ravana. The praisings of Ravana is well clearly written. Once some body goes thru it, one can understand that Rama never killed Ranava but the God gave him the Moksha. regards vijayan kiliyil ----------------------------- Hindu Gods demonstrate ;- Nip the evil in the bud. They never lose patience.the annhilation of the evil is done after many many chances for abondoning the violence against innocent are provided to the asuras (demons), who usually ignore these. Regards Shiban Raina ------------------------------ Dear Shri Iyer, Please refer to your mail of November 10/11. You say that you are a senior citizen and also a staunch Hindu, but in my eyers, you seem to be utterly confused about the basic Hindu faith. Unfortunately, most of the modern educated Hindus suffer from this confusion according to me. Resultantly, the upcoming Hindu generation is alsmost uprooted from their Hindu base. Your question as to why Hindu Gods are depicted to be showing violence (killing or annihilating evil physically), betrays ignorance of the basic Hindu tenet that Parameshwara or Paramatma (God) is one. Only Devatas and Devis, who have a positive effect on human beings are many. Parents and Gurus too are counted among Devatas, (Matridevo bhava, Pitridevo bhava). Paramatma's creative faculty personified as Brahma has no armament or weapon. Vishnu representing His executive faculty and Rudra (Shiva) representing the assimilation or dissolution faculty alone bear a weapon in one hand whereas the other hand bears a protective gesture. It only symbolises punishment to the evil doer and protection to the righteous ones. The message is concretized in the Geeta, " Paritranayaya sadhunam vinashaya cha dushkritam/ Dharma sansthapanarthaya sambhavami yuge yuge, " (From time to time, I appear on earth in order to protect the righteous ones, destroy the evil doers and to establish the rule of Dharma, i.e., righteousness or rule of law). In the Mahabharatha, (Shanti-parva, chap. 57), Bhishma Pitamah tells Yudhishthir, " The greatest sin of a king is his failure to protect his subjects. He should protect the dharma of all his Varnas. (It means that every citizen should be able to pursue his or her chosen vocation/occupation, education, trade, business, farming, lending services, doing government or private job, without let or hindrance). The king should act like Yamaraj in administering justice and like Kuber in collection of revenue. He should make provision for those who cannot support themselves and should take good care of those who help the destitute " Such lessons of Hindu scriptures have been ignored . Resultantly, they have brought the country to a breaking point. In Raj dharma, the question of violence and non-violence is irrelevant. Yours sincerely, Ram Gopal ------------------------------- -Shree Hari- There has been a lot of mention of various gods killing, in conflict, the Divine Feminine has been mentioned also on this thread. Now, I do not know these ancient Vedic literatures, but have some insights to other bronze age traditions. Emmanuel Vilakovski considered that the various ancient Greek stories of waring gods, was actually the remembrance of ancient astronomic events. I have seen on this thread, Sadhaks inferring that these ancient sagas of warring gods, was the primordial forces at work. Other Sadhaks have in my opinion, correctly pointed out that the Abrahamic traditions are the most warlike, I have an explanation as to why. Here is a quote from the book, 'A shewing of God's Love', (written by an Christian medieval female mystic ). " The mother may fold her child tenderly to her breast , but our tender Mother Jesus, He may homely lead into His blessed Breast....... " (Notice the Feminine/Masculine aspects here ). When I first read this, I thought of, (hard to believe I know), Shakti , Quan Yin , Mother Mary, and Asherah, known also as Elat , the feminine aspect of El, ( The supreme GOD). You see, She has been factored out of the world, (perhaps She is retuning, I pray She is). I ask you. Would She desire her children to kill each other.? The point is Asherah was forced out of the traditions of Israel and Judah, leaving in the minds of those people, Yahweh, without his consort, thus the Divine Feminine, the Nurturer ,was no longer in their hearts, the growth of the Patriarch religion had started. So the god of their tradition became a god of war and and male dominance. The great Swami Vivekananda pointed out the horror of the millions that were killed in the name of that (unbalanced) god . Bede Griffiths regarded a religion without balance as demonic. Sri Krishna pointed out to Arjuna that, he (Arjuna) had no memory of his past lives. Now consider this. If a swami, a doctor, maybe a Sister of Mercy, or any sweet soul., suddenly remembered with great clarity , being a warrior, raising the battle- ax, or sword in brutal warfare , what would they think. A soul can weary of war, did not Lord Krishna point out it was only the flesh and blood that was being destroyed in warfare. Many have said that the external world is a reflection of mankind's inner self. With Respect and Divine Love. Mike Keenor ---------------------------- Respected Sir, It is not the question of God or human being, the central theme is that " a woman is most often linked and the cause of fights / wars " as well as, down fall ! It may appear to be crude, but still there seems to be a connection, am I not correct? Barin Chatterjee ----------------------------- In Short, Hindus believe in the principle so nonviolence that is practical and can be practiced in day to day life. Christians believe in a Utopian nonviolence theory that neither they nor anyone else can practice. To elaborate, I suppose your son is not old enough to introspect and understand. First of all there are no Hindu Gods and Christian god. There is just ONE power that is omnipresent in all the things/beings. And it (I will not call it he or she) is not really non-violence per our definition, else no one ever died, no one got killed and there was no war ever etc. I understand that your son is really referring to the incarnations / perceptions of Gods that Hindus and Christians respectively believe in. First thing that you need to know is per Christians Jesus is not a God. He is the " Son of God " or the Messiah. Per Christians God never incarnated but Hindus do believe that God incarnates and so there is no point in comparing their perception of God to Hindu perception. Mahatma Gandhi's nonviolence was predominantly adopted from Christianity to fight them back on their own turf and with their own weapon. Persecution of nonviolent people by British brought back the memories of persecution of Jesus and his disciples and received extensive coverage and support from rest of the Christian world, forcing British out of India. In India Buddha preached and followed non violence, however, his disciples when they went to China to teach Buddhism they first learned martial arts to protect themselves during the journey. This is how martial art first reached China which they later expanded upon. Nonviolence shouldn't be confused with cowardice. Nonviolence means not hurting others for pleasure and self-fulfillment. However, fighting (and if needed killing) for protecting self and others can not be categorized as Violence. Nonviolence also means giving peace a chance before waging a war. That is why both Ram and Krishna sent a last peace message to Ravan and Duryodhan so the war could be avoided. Anand Awasthi PRIOR POSTING If you have some problem in any part of your body, first you try to cure it, but when it becomes incurable it has to be cut off to prevent rest of the body. World is viraat swaroop (Universal Form) of God. All creatures are parts of it. Things become clear when you think from God's point of view. Thanks Raja Gurdasani - Dear Sadhakas, Namaste! Shashikala Bahenji, right you are: " who can kill who " , as all is immortal/imperishable! I guess Sadhakas are answering in the best possible ways they know, because it is to be explained by a father to a son who is asking such questions as he should. Perhaps it is a giant leap to grasp such concept as immortality, which may not be appreciated at this stage in son's life! My short answer is: " when one inquires into deeper meanings of God, Life, Death, Incarnations, (non)Violence, being Hindu, Hindu Gods etc, one may come upon understanding that many questions like this get answered in the satisfactory way " . Now I would teach my son these things, but I didn't know myself when they were growing up! In my experience the best answer to one's question is the disappearance of question itself in the light of understanding question, as J Krishnamurti used to say " Please see that the answer is in the question " . Namaskar..... Pratap Bhatt ----------------------------- Hari Om 'Violence' is a relative term. Basically in the divine play of God, humans enjoy certain liberties of conduct. There are laws governing the entire creation. Humans have immense powers but identification with the mind and body makes them 'desire' for worldly temporary pleasures. Here they come in conflict with another law- desires can never be fulfilled, you can only renounce them. In order to fulfill the desires, one indulges into violence. 'Gods' in order to keep the creation going 'mete out' the results of deeds in an equally violent manner- as you sow, so shall you reap.. In fact, when they do so, they are liberating the souls from darkness. Hence, it is all 'play' , there is no violence, there is only 'mercy', there is only 'love' emanating from the top. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B -------------------------------- Namaste, Sanatana Dharma is not a simplistic/moralistic philosophy where things/ acts are categorised as eternally good or bad. It is the context that determines whether an act is good or bad. consequently when adharma prevails - the destruction/ killing of the 'asuras' is necessary for greater good. To give you an analogy - a knife might be considered as an instrument for violence but it is also necessary for cutting vegetables etc. The oft quoted verse 'ahimsa paramo dharmah' from the Gita is only half of the entire line which concludes with 'dharma himsa tathaiva cha' - himsa is equally valid when used for dharma. Gods in our tradition perpetrated violence against those forces that prevented Truth / dharma from prevailing and therefore cannot be judged in the same tone as those who commit senseless violence. Hope this helps. Shubhamastu Anuradha Choudry -------------------------------- Many Rishis such as 'Balmiki' were masters of weaponry and yet they opted not to fight because they are Brahmins, not authorized to slay but authorized to teach. The TriDev Brahma, Vishnu and Maheswar are in-charge of this universe and they have to do whatever is good for mankind. Manoj Padhi ------------------------------- fellow sadhakaas, namasteji..There is no escape from birth and death cycles..all our prayers wish peace and happiness..three times...But..if you can't defend yourself with vachaa, love..etc..you have to kill by Mantra or sahastra..even God had to exterminate terror by bad elements. Hari Om Vishnu Dada (Vishnu Patel) -- PRIOR POSTING There is only one God. No Hindu God or Muslim God or Christian God. They are all one and the same. Besides all human beings, irrespective of religion have souls whose ultimate destiny is to merge with God or the Parmatma. So to say this God is violent and the other is not is an exercise in futility. Hari Shanker Deo - Dear Mr. Iyer, Gods created all creatures on earth. A few of them tried to supercede GOD and also tried to destabilise the world. GOD had to ensure that these creatures do not wreak havoc. hence the destruction of evil. Anil Jain - Jai Hanuman Where is the question of some one " killing " another, when everyone is " immortal/imperishable " as a law ? Can any sadhak enlighten me, Jee ? So that I may address this question !! Kindly help, Jee ! Jee !! 'Violence' by 'Gods' ! Raam, Raam, Raam !! Mike Bhaiyya ! Pratap Bhaiyya! Sathyanarainji !! Adrien !! Any one Jee ! But quickly Jee !! Will you come to my rescue with reference to 'self' and 'Gitaji' - Jee! Jee ! ! Your sister is too stunned and anxious by the question, Jee ! Who can kill whom Jee ! What do you say Adrien ? Namaste Jee Jee Jee Shashikala ----------------------------- ----------------------------- 1. Hindu gods are to be understood in the same way as the judaic / greek gods. they are manifestations of the self and relate to our own psychological processes. this has been understtood recently in the west as archetypes of the self and forms part of CG jungs analytical psychology. 2. though Hindu gods always seem to be involved in wars (conflict is a better term) hindus are generally characterised as being non- violent and gandhi is one example of this. Majority of the international violence and acts of terrorism these days are related to the middleeast the home of judaism, christianity and islam, not to hinduism, buddhism, jainism, sikhism, taoism or any other pagan tradition. please read 'the god delusion' by richard dawkins for great understanding. Ravi Bakhsi Dear Mr Iyer, Violence is something that you cannot avoid. Tell me when you eat vegetarian food do you not think that those vegetables and rice and dal and other such food also grew which means they had a life. Which means that the vegetables and rice were alive and were killed for your ultimate consumption. That is violence to a lesser degree. What makes you think that violence does not occur everyday? Even when you breathe you kill millions of bacteria that enter your nose and mouth. Let me put it to you that without a section of the population taking the initiative of killing bad elements in any society, others do not have the luxury of being non-violent. hope this helps Prashanth Thirukkonda - Dear spiritual brothers and sisters, Vedas do not advise just non violence but lay emphasis on Non Violence of the strong. Prakrti- the divine subtle Nature which is our Supreme Mother according to Vedas is extremely strong and powerful but largely peaceful and non violent. She provides a Book of Nature which even blind people and even animals/fishes/birds can read and wants us to follow Rts- Her cosmic laws of necessity for our social, moral and physical order. Like any benevolent and loving mother she remains peaceful and affectioante most of the time but gets extremly violent when we flout her Cosmic Laws of Nature and start spreading social, moral and physical evils. Hindu gods (Ishwaras) are Not God- as there is only One universal God for the entire mankind wise men describe Him with different names. All the Hindu gods/goddesses (Ishwaras/devas/devis) are extremely powerful and strong but like Prakrti merciful, benevolent and always keen to ensure that cosmic Laws of nature (Rta) are observed by all her children who are noble people. Thus Hindu Ishwaras/devas/devis are the greatest followers of Non violence of the Strong but get violent if evil is spread in society, environment is polluted and hydra headed CORRUPTION with Nine Heads over takes virtue, ethics, divine thoughts and social nobilty. Incidentally Mahatma Gandhi never talked of Non Violence in a general way but always talked of Non Violence of the Strong. He wanted people of India to become morally, spiritually and physically strong and then non violent. Non violence of the Weak is self destruction. He has greatly emphasised this point in his Biography " My Experiment With Truth " . None of our gods/godesses become violent for the sake of violence but give a very long rope to evil people to change and behave conforming to Vedic Rta but those non divine people (Avarnas/Vritras) who encourage all actions against Laws of Nature and create social, moral and physics pollution strict action is taken by Hindu Ishwras/devas/devis. with kind regards, Prem Sabhlok -- PRIOR POSTING Shree Hari Ram Ram Shri Iyer Bhaiyya, Tell your son simply that to eradicate evil, one has to engage in violence. If your son understands about a scorpion and his sting, then ask him that if a scorpion comes into the house and is running around to sting someone, what would he do? Sometimes, a question posed against a question, can be a better clarifier, than an answer. So be it ! Vineet Sarvottam -------------------------------- Dear Sadhak, According to the Yajnavalkya Samhita, ahimsa or non-violence is the awareness and practice of non-violence in thought, speech and action. Do we practice Non-violence at that lavel ??? Do we not kill mosquitoes, cockroches and so many other so called " harmful being " according to us? What do you say about - Hang till death, cutting hands of a thief and so many other such so called justice orders? All our Puranas have symbolic meaning, they want us to look deep inside us. The war between good and evil is going on inside us only. Do we not need to " kill " our bad thoughts ? Do we call killing of our bad thoughts/demonic qualities as the act of violence ? Who gives power to kill those bad qualities within ? Ya Devi Sarvabhuteshu Shakti rupen sansthita Namstasye, namstasye, Namstasye namo Nama " I bow to the Divine Mother Who resides within me as Power/Strength " Thus MaaDurga-Goddess of Motherly Love, Mother of sur (Demigods/our good qualities) and Asura(Devils/our bad qualities) alike, cannot be blamed as performing violence. She is washing away the evils of Her sons by purifying them through Her divine weapons, and ultimately merging them all in Her own Divine Love. Similarly Lord Shiva, who drank vemon for the welfare of the entire universe, whose another name is Bhole Baba(Innocent God who pleases easily and bless us without considering our good/bad karmas) can not even think of violence. Read more about Him and you will know how merciful is He. We cannot know about our Gods until we know our own self. The Supreme is seated right into our own Heart. Look within, meditate deeply and know Thy Self. Surrender to Gitaji and go beyond the duality of this world. Krishna says- " I am the goal, the sustainer, the master, the witness, the abode, the refuge and the most dear friend. I am the creation and the annihilation, the basis of everything, the resting place and the eternal seed. " Gitaji Ch 9:18 He is All then who is killing whom ? We are not the body, and suffering is all illusion arising from the Nature. If we want to see peace, love and bliss in the world, we have to " BE " peace, love and bliss. There is no other way. There is no Hindu GOD or Christian God. There is only ONE, and that ONE GOD cannot be understood by debate as He is beyond duality, beyond mind, intellect. God can only be experienced. If your son wants to understand Sanatan Dharma, present him with a Gitaji. Read Gitaji over and over again, contemplate on each stanza. Come back and answer your own question. With lots of Love, A sadhika Sadhna Karigar - Dear Sir, We all need to better understand the Hindu philosophy and its message. First of all we need to understand the meaning of non- violence. Does it mean only physical act of killing or harming? No. any act leading to harm or hurt others through thought, word or deed is Non-violence. A physical act of killing in a war with a pure intension of good of the mankind is again not classified as violence. Unfortunately, this thought also is misunderstood, misinterpreted and misused now a days. When a mother slaps a child it is not called violence. because the act originates out of Love. The stories which you are referring to are from an era when evil could be identified as a person. who in many cases knew what is evil or wrong but could not help act in that influence.. that time to remove the evil was to destroy them. Even if you look at the story of Gods killing... you would find that it was the last resort. Even those 'evil' people were given all the possible chances and opportunities to change. Only when they refused to comply and the suffering of good become unbearable the physical act of annihilation was performed, to reinstate the faith, to restore righteousness. It is high time we realize that spirituality is not for weak. it requires Will of Shankra, courage of Vivekanand. Today good and evil have become seen in every person. hence to destroy the evil path of annihilation of the person is not resorted. In todays time the solution is - Transformation of heart. for this the divine beings use various methods. even allowing themselves to suffer. Lets not misinterpret their divine pure act of grace. We are such people who would not hesistate to crucify Jesus and do nothing to stop and fight against but will be first to feel pity after the act is done. we dont want to self introspect why he was crucified. we are just contented to know that he was crucified for our sins. As if the godly people have the obligation to be crucified while we continue on our unjust ways. if you love Jesus then share his pain by being good and just. be open and understanding, be loving towards all. God has given each one enough strength to fight our own battles. be willing to suffer the punishments for the mistake committed, dont pass it on to god or godly people and expect them to suffer for you. I request you to not use such words " hindu gods lose patience " . this thought itself is full of ignorance. First of all know - There is only one GOD and he is omnipresent, omniscience, and omni-potent. What ever God does is for good of all. Even the physical act of so called violence is for the good. it is for us to understand how, when and why he does what he does. Even to qualify to question god we must first become a humble student. then may be the divine wisdom would fall on us to understand and enjoy the bliss of his grace. sai ram Abhimanyu Kaul Sadaks With birth comes death. Mahatma Gandhi fought with weapons he had i.e. none, but you cannot run a country on that philosophy as India found out with China. We must all defend Dharma. This is the best. A persons duty is to live according to Dharma and to defend it. From Ahimsa paramo dharmaha, Dharma himsa tathaiva cha. This Is the full proper statement. Each person has to follow the work according to his caste and station in life. Kshatriyas job is to defend and fight for dharma. This is amply show in Gita, Ramayan, Mahabharat, in FACT THE ONLY HOLY BOOK WRITTEN ON A BATTLE FIELD IS THE GITA. Non violence is the best Dharma, but to attain it HIMSA (violence) is required to defend this is the message. Jayesh A Patel PRIOR POSTING dear brother loves and best wishes. The creator Himself has said in Geeta that the very purpose of His incarnation in human form is to destroy the wicked, to save the righteous. In fact this seems to be one of the necessary divine rule. Moreover non-violence does not mean not to resist evil. thanks. ck kaul ------------------------------- II SHRI HARI II Respected Shri Iyer Ji, One must understand God or Lord, a Prophet and Saint in their respective capacity. Our Gods and Hindu Dharma do not follow the principle of Violence (Hinsa) and in fact, Violence (Hinsa) has no place in any of Hindu scriptures and character of our Gods and Saints. Our scriptures say " Ahinsa Param Dharmo " (Non-violence is the ultimate (basis) of religion). Life (Leela) of our Gods and Saints show no violence whatsoever. To understand this you must go through our scriptures carefully under the guidance of eminent Sdhakas and participate in the Satsang of our great Saints (Sad Gurus). In Sanatan Dharma, there are mainly five Gods (Panch Devas) and only these Panch Devas are worshipped. Although, there are thirty three crore Devi Devtas and they are all the parts of only Panch Devas. In other religions we do not find Gods but the great Saints who are said to be Sons of Gods and sent by God to spread peace and the teachings of Gods. Our religion spreads over infinite time, you can count the origination and time for the others. First of all it is important to understand Ravna, Bali, Kans and numerous other Asur (Rakshasas). All these Asur were God's devotees (Bhaktas) and following the path of Vair (enmity) Bhakti (devotion for enmity). There are two type of devotees (Bhaktas) first Premi Bhaktas (dveotees who love God) and second the Vairi Bhaktas (devotees who keep enmity with God). Purpose of both devotees is same i.e. attainment of God. Ravna and his brother Kumbh Karan both were Jay and Vijay the Door Men (Dwar Pal) of Lord Vishnu's Vaikuntha lok. One day Sanakadik Rishis were going to meet God Vishnu in the Vaikunthalok and Jay and Vijay the Door Men (Dwar Pal) of Lord's Vaikunthalok stopped them at the door saying that they can not enter Vaikuntha without God Vishnu's permission, which was quite surprising as Rishis and Saints do not require permission to enter any of Divya Lokas. Therefore, Sanakadik Rishis got angry over the attitude of Jay and Vijay the Door Men (Dwar Pal) of Lord Vaikuntha and passed on curse (Shraap) to Jay and Vijay to take birth three times in Asuras (Rakshasas). Frightened by the curse (Shraap), Jay and Vijay fell on the lotus feet of Sanakadik Rishis for mercy (Daya) and Lord Vishnu also requested Sanakadik Rishis to show some compassion and Sanakadik Rishis relaxed their curse (Shraap) and told that though Jay and Vijay will take birth in Asur Kul (Rakshasas, Demons) but Lord Vishnu will take reincarnation (Avtaar) for their welfare (Udhar). And Sanakadik Rishis said this will happen likewise (Tthasthu). Accordingly, Jay and Vijay the Door Men (Dwar Pal) of Lord Vishnu's Vekunthalok, took birth in Asur Kul in Treta Yug and Lord Ram took incarnation (Avtaar) for their well being (Udhar). Ravna and his brother Kumbh Karan along with numerous Asurs (demoniac beings) were killed and each of them went to Satlok. In Dwaapar they took birth as Dantvakra and Shishupal, the associates of Kans, and Lord Krishna took incarnation (Avtaar) for their well being (Udhar). Dantvakra and Shishupal along with so many Asurs were killed by Lord Krishna and each of these Asurs (demoniac ones) went to Lord Krishna's dham (abode). When the Jeev gets Lord's Divya Lok on his death, he is called Badbhagi (great in destiny) as he gets Lord's Divya Lok which the Sadhu, saints, Rishi and sadhakas long for. For each of the Lord's incarnation (Avtaar), there are various reasons (Hetu) and to fulfill each of the reason (Hetu) Lord takes incarnation (Avtaar) for the welfare of Lord's devotees (Bhaktas). Ram Charit Manas states " RAM JANAM KE HETU ANEKA, PARAM VICHITRA EK TE EKA " . You can understand these only by participating in the Satsang and by carefully going through and understanding our holy scriptures like Shreemad Bhagwat, Ram Charit Manas, Shiv Mha Puran, Skand Puran, Vedas, Upnishaidas, Shruty and Samrity granthas and even sidh Chalisa like hanuman Chalisa, Durga Chalisa, Shive Chalisa and so on. Perhaps you do not know about the sacrifice of our great Rishis and Saints and that's why you are quoting the example of Jesus. Our Dadhichi Rishi sacrificed his body to give his bones (Asthiyan) to Indra Dev the king of Devtaas to make Vajra from the Rishi's bones (Asthiyan) for killing Vritasur Asur to save the Srishti from demolition. Sanatan Dharma possesses infinite knowledge of the Infinite Lord. No other religion possesses such a large variety of Holy Scriptures. There are four Vedas, 301 Upnishaidas, 18 Puranas, Vedant and enormous Saint Charitar, Saint Vaani, Guru Vaani etc. It is simply enormous! That's why it is stated in Ram Charit Manas " HARI ANANT HARI KATHA ANANTA , KAHI SUNI BAHU VIDHI SAB SANTA " . The Gatha (Katha) of Ananat Bhagwan, the One whose birth and death is not known to any body, the One who is unborn and do not die and the One who is beyond birth and death is INFINITE (Aseem, Athaha)! How can men like us who are definite, limited in life and strength can know his Katha. Sanatan Dharma is a non-violent religion. Do not be misconceived or misguided. Go to Satsang, read our holy scriptures and then only you will be able to express your true quest (Jigyas) for knowledge. May Bhagwan Shree Hari Har satisfy your doubts! Shubham Astu, RAJINDER MOHAN VOHRA -------------------------- Thank you for forwarding this letter. I believe Krishna never resorted to any violence - he tried to protect non-violence. Krishna never advised Arjuna to kill people or resort to violence. Can you show anywhere in GITA Krishna advising a war? Gods are to protect non-violence and to maintain dharma. They are not Saints. Lovingly Dr.Uday Pai -------------------------- Dear Sir: Perhaps Hindu Gods resort to " violence " so that Hindu people stay peaceful. Only Hinduism can create a Gandhi, as you pointed out, the staunches non-violent person. While other religion's God may not appear to be violent, the people of other religion appear to be more violent than Hindus, as can be observed by events today and by events of History. Viz. Followers of a " peaceful " Jesus initiated the Crusades. So maybe there is an inverse relationship between the behavior of Gods and their followers ?? (Based on my understanding, the old testament of the Christians is full of violence. " Slay the idolators, destroy the idols " , " leave no man, woman, child, animals of the enemy alive " to paraphrase some of the writings.) Also, the violence of the Hindu Gods is not mindless violence. There are some people who only listen to violence. For example, the terrorists who are bombing innocent people in India can only be handled thru like minded treatment. Perhaps, publicly blowing up a terrorist in the same place he planted bombs to kill innocent people is the only language he will listen to. So in that sense I wish Hindus would get more aggressive to seek justice. And Dharma requires this. Dilip Bhagat --------------------------- Hare Ram Hare Krishna Dear Sir, Pranam If your question has arisen out of a thirst to understand the God, then I whole heartedly welcome it and try to put my views as below. However if it has arisen with an intention of malice, then it is time to quit all false books/thoughts leading you to such confusions or debates and concentrate only on the divine Gita - the ultimate guide to reach the one and only God. According to the holy Gita, God is the most superior, the ultimate power, the invincible, and is always victorious. The common sense also confirms this, otherwise anyone can defeat God and he/she can become God. Just as living things are created by God, it is His duty to digest them within Himself and give life to new ones to maintain the balance of this universe. This digestion into Himself has happened in many ways - in the form of moksha to the Rushis who had spent a peaceful life worshipping Him throughout their life, in the form of death to those who approached a violent form of life and in several ways. This had been confirmed by the existence of Lord Krishna, who is the ONE and ONLY GOD in this world and Bhagavad Gita is the proof for it. The portraying of victory of good over evil have been depicted as VIOLENT for common man to understand but it is all part of his MAYA ! And remember it was the choice Jaya and Vijaya made to die in the hands of the God Himself three times as evil doers than to be his devotees and wait for the MOKSHA after 6 rebirths. And why do you focus only at these depictions and see it as a physical violence while there are plenty of instances in puranas where God had been so merciful and loving - mokhas to rushis, life to the dead, etc. I hope my explanation will answer you that God doesn't lose patience and resort to violence. Regarding your reference to Jesus, He was a messiah of peace who suffered and died for the people. A God is there to protect the good from evil. If God cannot protect himself in the hands of evil, how can he protect the good from the evil? From my perspectivie it is illogical to think that someone suffered pain in the past for the sins which will be committed by future generations. It should be the other way round. And the existence of Lord Krishna is the best example of the triumph of God over evil or mere mortals. He killed the evil and he was always victorious. He was so merciful to end his incarnation in the hands of his beloved devotee as per his promise in his previous incarnation as Lord Rama. I hope and pray that you and your son will read the divine Gita with a positive mind-set, as all of us should do, and attain Lord Krishna with our good thoughts and deeds. Hare Ram Hare Krishna SRIKANTH MOHAN KETHU --------------------------- Dear Sadak, The statement of Sri Iyer GA that Bagavan Shiva killed Kameswar. Dear Sir, Vayu Bagavan is wind, Varna Bagavan is Rain and so on. The demi gods are having No specific form. They are Pancha Boothas. Kameswar is not GOD or demi God. Kameswar is symbol of desire. Kama + Easwaran-- means Kama desire-- Easwaran ruler. Kameswaran is ruler of desires. Bagavan Shiva killed Kameswar by HIS 3rd eye. We can also kill desires by our 3rd eye Gyana located between 2 eye brows were thilak is put upon. Again-- Kama never leaves anyone by its nature. But it did not work out in case of Bagavan Shiva. Also purana says that Kameswar was given back the power. This Kameswar was sent by Indra to distrub Bagavan Vishnu while doing Yogic Tapas in Badrinath. Kameswar failed in his attempt and Sri Vishnu gave Menaka a very beautiful looking lady as present to Indra through Kameswar. These puranas have hidden concepts. B.Sathyanarayan --------------------------- Evil can not be fought with platitudes. For example if we stand with folded hands before terrorists then they will gain the upper hand. That is what our ancient books teach us. Our Gods fought evil even in Satyug and we should fight evil in Kaliyug too. That is the lesson for us. Even in Christian countries, they have armies and give death sentences to murderers. Remember Iraq and Afghanistan? Hari Shanker Deo ----------------------------- I don't think there should be so much concern about " Hindu " " Gods " . The word Hindu itself is a misnomer, and should not be used to characterize the Bharatyia philosphical traditions. Most linguists will agree that it started with the " Satem/hatem " divide in the IE languages, and the " hatem " group residing outside the geopolitical context of the subcontinent who corrupted Sindhu into Hindu. Sindhu was a part of the " Mahabharatm " of Krishna and not the whole. The Arabs do mention " Hind-va-Sind " in the 7-8th century chronicles, thereby distinguishing and extending the concept from mere " Sindhu " . But no " Hindu " inscriptions use the term until 15th century. There are also many " Gods " . Vishnu descends as avatar, but Shiva does not. The Gods do not always show fairness in their treatment and this is the reason sometimes they have to justify their actions by introducing " past life karma " , something obviously unverifiable by the majority of the commoners. The Ramayana story as popularly rendered omits certain crucial details from the Balmiki version relevant for this topic, like that of why Ravana had to be invited by Rama to perform the rites of initiation ( " Bodhana " ) of Chandi/Durga - the same rites carried out by the avatar of Vishnu to gain ultimate victory over Ravana. Ravana was the best " Brahmin " available (what happened to " caste " - the same " caste " which has even found its way into the Gita as something whose breakdown by the " women " and others leads to eventual destruction of " civilization " and " dharma " - the Asura clan Ravana, who fights and abducts women like the Kshatryias being a Brahmin!) for even Brahma had omitted Gayatri recitation for one " Sandhya " and was unfit as a " yagnik " (lets not go into the actual reason as to why he could not - as it might throw some lights on possible motivations even in this fountainhead of " Brahmanya " revelation). The " Gods " and the " Asuras " both derived from the same " father " , and to start with they were not even " immortal " . They had to coopt the asura " siblings " to extract " amrita " and then needed Vishnu to cheat them of their legitimate share. The Gods get tempted by the beauty of mortal women, like Ahalya, and seduce or rape them. It becomes convenient then later to invent " bad past Karma " to justify such unfair treatment of humans. In this the common Gods do resemble (and were perhaps in reality just deification of actual humans or modeled on the " aristocracy " of the time) the common historical behaviour of elite ruling class. The real strength of Bharatyia philosophy should be sought in a proper analysis and absorption of the Upanishads, the Gita, and the Mahabharatam - the last two being essentially statements on political society and individual's relation with that of the state and the social group. These have little to do with the " Gods " - Gods have minor roles in the Mahabharatam, the original source of the Gita. Gods are just a reflection of humanity, and should not be given so much importance. The Upanishads give a framework very much in compliance with modern science and logic, as to how humans should continue to explore the world around them and continuously update their knowledge - never to be stationary with one ossified belief without continuous requestioning ( " Charaibeti " ). The Mahabharatam and the Gita, edited out of their obvious later " priestly opportunistic addition " of support of unfair and unauthentic practices like " hereditary and for-life varna " gives the guiding principle for social interaction and the nature of the state - a crucial vision of nationhood embodied in this ideal of Krishna. " Gods " are not the primary messages of these core texts - they are mere additions by interested priests to extract benefits from society without contributing in real terms. " dikgajone " --------------------------- Sir, To my limited mind, there are two types of powers SUR (divine) and AASUR (demoniac). And Ishwara (God) also has to adopt the aasura (demoniac) powers in order to destroy the aasuri (demoniac) aspects in a aasur (demoniac) person. A Sur (Virtuous, Divine person) is always of positive behaviour. This is simplest and easiest way to understand. Ram Ji also killed AASURAs (demoniac men) because He is Ishwara (God), Himself, and does not need extra powers to switch between Sur (Divine) and AAsur (Demoniac) properties to accomplish a task. " apb1942 " ---------------------------- PRIOR POSTING Dear sadaks, First about Human-- Man kills man-Why? Enemity, Greed Etc Etc. Animals kill animals only for food. Hindu God never resort to Violence but terminate extremely Bad people for the betterment of human beings at large. Here the Gods benefit nothing, but they act to save human beings at large. It is depicted in such a manner by some that it looks like violence. Kans is maternal uncle of Sri Krishna. Kans jailed his parents, Devaki and Vasudev. Sri Krishna as child left Mathura, but Kans went on sending asuras (demoniac people) to kill Sri Krishna. Asuras came to Krishna from Mathura, but Krishna never went there to kill. In defense Sri Krishna killed Asuras. The sacred truth behind this killing is giving Mukthi (salvation) to them. When God incarnates and kills, it is divine to die in the hands of Bhagavan. Sri Krishna never killed Jarasand though he waged war several times. Duryodhan was not killed though he tried to rope up Krishna who came as messenger for Pandavas. These people were unfit to die in HIS hands. Several warnings were given to Kans to behave himself and since he failed he was killed. Besides Kans was door keeper at Vaikunth as Jaya/Vijaya. Due to ego there they were cursed by Sanakadhi Munis to be born on earth. Actually Kans after being killed went to Vaikunth. Sri Rama was quietly living in the forest, why should Ravana abduct and carry Mother Sita to Lanka? When Ravana lost war and became alone without arms in his hand, Sri Rama said to Ravana Go today think of your sins and come tomorrow. But Ravana came to wage war again knowing that he will be killed. So also other Gods did. Jesus was born as human acquired Gyana between the age 14 to 30 became saint. Normally saints or Sanyasins are forbidden to any type of killing. They allow other to kill them, as it is their knowledge that body alone is being destroyed, but not the Soul (Athuman). When Jesus rose from death with body of wounds it was astrial body (Non Destructable). His disciple never believed Jesus and tested Jesus' wound on his ribs by sending his pointing finger into the wound. This disciple finger is still not perished and remains an exhibit. Demons with strong powers can be killed by Gods only. Now take Maha Lakshmi who incarnated as Sri Andal in Srivalliputtur, was tought by her God father Sri Pria Alwar the good deeds of Sri Krishna. She fell in love with Krishna and wanted to marry Sri Krishna. She took to 30 days Dhanurmasa Vrath and in presence of Chola king and people she was taken abode of Sri Vishnu who gave Dharshan to all with Sanka, Chakra, four Arms Etc on Garuda. Gods appear (Not Born) looks like being born. Sri Krishna was with 108 occult powers when born. To people it looks as being born. Sri Rama or Sri Krishna opted to be kshatriya / yadava not as Brahmin. Brahmins are forbidden to kill. Sanyasin (ascetics) are tought to give in themselves, when someone strikes them. Like Adi Sankara/Buddha/ Christ. B.Sathyanarayan Some of the Demons / Ill-minded souls are hard to change with preachings alone. They have to be physically removed like weeds, because they go beyond repair and are harmful to mankind. Also these characters and killing by GOD need not be taken in the literal sense. To make common people like us to understand, some of these might have been personified, otherwise it is mostly how to control the inner evils like greed/ ego etc to attain divinity " mvssr75 " ------------------------------- -Shree Hari- Dear Iyer GA, What a blessing you have in a son that wants to debate such things with you and visa versa. A respectful correction.Yahweh(Christian/Judaic God) was involved in wholesale slaughter and genocide. When the hard shell around ones spiritual heart is broken, the taste for violence is lost. I am looking forward to the wise council of the Sadhaks. I think this is a very interesting question. With Respect and Divine Love. Mike Keenor -------------------------------- VIOLENCE is when you apply force UNLAWFULLY, SHOURYA is KARTAVYA (Duty) to restore DHARMA Dear Iyer, Lord krishna himself went to Su(Dhur)yodhana and adviced to give back what belonged to Pandavas. Did they heed? So lord had to KILL them to teach this world that if you try to keep that which does not belong to you, it will be disaster. Lord pardons who ever takes asylum in him, kills who goes against him (Nature). Gandhi policy does not apply to all cases. Can we sit in front of afzal guru fasting like Gandhi and make him repent for his attack on parliament? Please try it and then ask why krishna killed Kamsa. You yourself will take a weapon to restore Dharma if your son is hurt by any anti-social element and when they try to do again and again. Using Shourya is kartavya (duty) and is a part of restoring Dharma (righteousness) and shanti (peace). Violence is not a part of Hindu Gods or any body who protects Mother Land. It is called " shourya " Please note if our people in borders chant Om shanti, then bullets come from other side and may hit your chest. So a protector(God or any king/human being like soldier) has to use force to subdue non-social element to restore the civilizaton, else country will be weak and no place for Dharma. Hindu gods showed this ... to be strong and rise to occasion. Save the Dharma even if you have to kill your own brother. Non-violence should be practised but not at all times. HARI OM TATH SATH shiva Kumar shapur Dear Shri Ayer, I too am an old man, vegetarian and certainly non-violent. But I am a devotee of Durga. It is depicted in various forms including Mahishmardani. Similarly other Hindu Gods too may be shown in benevolent forms like Gyatri, Lord Vishnu or Brahma Even Shiva may be depicted in the dance pose. Dear friend you look inside. You will find a conflict going in all the time. Good ultimately prevails. But it is so because of a fight between the God and the devil. So my suggestion is enjoy the fights and always stand by the righteousness. With best wishes. Shridhar Pant -------------------------------- Shreemanji, There is a small anamoly. You say you are a senior citizen and haven't been able to realise the answer to your question in all these years ????? Is there any difference between Bhartiya (Indian/Hindu) and other Gods ? Read the scriptures with an open mind and NOT blind faith or dislike. It has all got to do with human psychology. You will discover the answer yourself. Pranam Sampuran Singh - GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: 1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify their doubts related to Gitaji shlokas. Therefore, responses which further clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be posted. 2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to substantiate your response. 3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas 4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting sadhaka's time. 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only. 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other organizations. 7. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone number, address etc. 8. Please do not address the response to a particular individual since the message is going to the entire group. 9. Due to the large readership, all responses may not be posted. 10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if content is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the group. 11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use to Sanskrit words only, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit bracketed wherever possible. MODERATOR Ram Ram ------------------------ Post message: Subscribe: - Un: - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 15, 2008 Report Share Posted November 15, 2008 Respected Sirs, I am hindu, a senior citizen, vegetarian and a non-violent loving person. Mahatma Gandhi was the staunchest of non-violent human beings. Though every one, violent and non violent alike would like peace prevail in this world VIOLENCE is happening in this world, knowingly or unknowingly. My question is - Why Hindu Gods are depicted to be showing violence (killing or anihilating evil physically)? eg: Lord Krishna Kills Kamsa, Goddess Durga Kills Pandasura and other Asuras, Lord Shiva Kills Kameswar, Lord Rama Kills Ravana and Bali. Lords of other religions do not appear to follow these paths, no matter the extent of the sufferings one has to undergo. Jesus suffered all along, though he too was believed to have had super natural powers. Kindly enlighten me, in the circumstances, why Hindu Gods loose patience and resort to violent killings to eliminate evil? I have to answer my son who debates with me often. Pranams ! Iyer GA -- NEW POSTING PS: This is a burning question that has been misused from centuries against Indian Faiths. I would like to address this in detail. I request the moderators to allow me to do so. Thanks. Naga. Violence in Epics Any scripture can be studied from social perspective or from spiritual perspective. Once, a scripture is examined from social perspective, all characters ought to be human be it Rama or Krishna or Abraham or Zeus or Achilles. After all, these characters are visualized by humans, may be enlightened, yet humans. Therefore, the actions performed by these characters need to be obsorbed with an acute circumstantial social awareness without jumping into conclusions out of context. Hanuman tells Bhima when requested to help Pandavas in the anticipated Mahabharata war, " I belong to an erstwhile value system. Hence, I am not entitled to wage your war. " The author, Veda Vyasa, emphasises on many occasions the social boundaries within which every social norm has to be examined carefully. I suggest you to read the epics of Mahabharata and Ramayana again carefully before answering your son. It is a better idea to encourage him to study the same himself before criticizing them. Ravana has abducted Sita, wife of Rama. A common man would boil in rage to kill such a person instantly. Rama had the capability to destroy Ravan. Yet, Rama sends his representation to Ravana till the last moment to avert the war and to avoid killing of anyone. On the other hand, Ravana never regrets his actions. He interprets Rama's good will as weakness and believes that the weak ones are born only to suffer from the wrath of the strong ones like himself. The goodness is often misunderstood with weakness. He shows no interest in saving any lives as such! Also, when Rama sends Hanuman to find Sita, he requests Hanuman to understand first what Sita wants. Sita was already about to suicide notwithstanding the violence attempted against her. Thanks to Vedavati's curse and Mandodari's wisdom, Ravana could not dare violating her physically. Yet, she was literally tortured psychologically. When Hanuman reveals his identity, the first thing she reminds Rama is to liberate her from the situation at the earliest. She even puts a timeline for the action lest she would kill herself. A husband is violated and wants his wife back. He is wise enough to ensure that his wife wants the same. He is human enough to request and warn the violator. The violator is insensitive to honor others in the first place and refuses to do so even after a series of reminders and warnings even from his own brothers and wife. Is it not obvious that such characters should be removed from the society for the sake of social welfare? Same case in Mahabharata. The peace-loving Yudhishthira wages everything - kingdom, his brothers, his wife and himself - to evade a war. They accept banishment. Krishna himself pleads the Kauravas for peace. He even offers on his own that he will convince the Pandavas even if they are given just five villages - not an empire, not a kingdom, not even a province ... just five villages. Again, the violators refuse to acknowledge and honor the requests made. On contrary, they mock the peace mongers as impotents. Did they leave any choice but to be removed? Kamsa, Krishna's uncle, had murdered many new borns driven by his baseless paranoia. He had imprisoned his own sister and her husband for life. He had thrown his own father into dungeons for power. He unleashed wrath on poor villagers just for a fear of a child killing him. He drew his death nearer and nearer thanks to his own paranoia. If people were happy, why would they send Akrura to plead Krishna and Balarama to kill their own king? If they were not convinced, why would Krishna and Balarama consider killing their own uncle? If you read Bhagavata carefully, the brothers never strike on Kamsa on their own. Attempts were made to murder them at every step. Did Kamsa leave any room for his own survival? Did he leave any other way other than killing him to rescue the people? In all cases, who killed whom. Even from social perspective, Ravana, Kamsa, Duryodhana etc. had already killed themselves with their deeds by violating every human around who just wanted them dead. They just needed a power to depend upon. Rama and Krishna happened to be those. Respects. Naga Narayana. To be contd. … -- Dear Sadaks, If a doctor does operation and patient dies for some reason. Do you blame the doctor? If a judge setences a criminal to be hanged until death, do you tell judge commited murder? Here the doctor intention to save the patient. judge intention was to punish, not to murder. But if a man kills another man for gains/vengence is called murder. But if Hindu Gods kills very bad person after giving long rope, it is called in Hinduism " Vadham " , may mean termination. Like one`s leg gets affected by diabetes, the leg is cut off. Here Asuras (Very bad people) are affected by total mind corruption. There are warned now and then which can also be known from puranas. Only ultimately God terminates. In Christianity- there is a thing known as Judgement Day. Please ask Christians what it is. When Moses went 40 days on hills for prayer, leaving hundreds of peoples at the foothills, the people lost faith in GOD and they started drinking wine, made forms of eagle/animals as Gods, behaving like animals, any woman with any man, Moses came down with 10 Commandments. But all laughed at him. Result Gods in heaven says Bible, killed almost all. Even now due imbalance of Dharma, earthquake/Tsunami (Pralaya) takes place killing people. Jai Sri Krishna baiya sathyanarayan -- Narain Narain My question is to Vineet Sarvottam. Sir, if that scorpion comes into your house, then what will you do ? Pls check up with Papa and come back. It is important question. I love this father/son relationship/asking questions and wise councelling.. Lallubhai Chirimar - dear mr iyer First we have to study the Vedas, then Upanishads, Brahmanas, Aranyakas, Siksha, Nirukta, Chhandas, then the 18 Mahapuranas, 18 upa-puranas, then the Ithihaasaas Mahabharat and Ramayana etc. This is the series of study prescribed. From this it is clear that Vedas are the first to study, i.e. Lower primary, then the next upper primary, then high school, then plus 2, then degree and finally the ithihaasaas which are to be studied for PG. Our problem is what is to be studied in PG, we study in KG or lower primary. The root of man is his head and his leg portion is the head actually. The growth starts from the head portion once it is formed as a unicellular organ in the uterus. (Oordhwamoolamadhassakha...... bhagawat gita). This means now we are standing upward down position (on the reverse.) Therefore all our actions are on the reverse. So to hear something from other Dharmas like Christian or Islam or any other and think in that direction, is not of Sanathana Dharma. It has no equivalence in the world, rather, all other dharmas are born out of it only. The modern education system is teaching only of the Drishyas, means, object based (Dravyaadhishtita). Shabda, Sparsa, Roopa, Rasa, Gandha, these are only taught and studied. There is no teaching of the tought. Means, before I start studying a matter or an object which is outside me, I should first study about myself. Dear Mr Iyer, you may kindly start studying yourself. Do not think of Devataas. Devataas and men are having equally good and bad qualities. The one who is able to do MANANA he is man. No that those having two legs fitted on the stomac are men.... No never. Start asking yourself, who 'am I ? From where I came., Where I have to go/reach... What for I am sent here.. Who has sent me ? With whose ability my eyes are able to see, with whose inspiration I am being led to do the innumerable doings (karmaas), with whose wish my ears are able to hear... Just because I have two eyes, I cannot see. Just because I have two ears, I cannot hear. Just because I have tongue I cannot talk... Then what is that power which orders my these senses (INDRIYAAS) to do karma. That chaitanya swaroopa is within you covered by all the (bad) smskaaraas bought forward throug out the innumerable birth and death. This cover one has to remove or (dis- cover) then the original will shine. One reaches a stage of no.... nothing. regards vijayan kiliyil -- Dear Iyer ji namaskar Without assessing the powers of the opponent the survival is not possible. It is upto an individual which path to lead. For the benifit of mankind if voilence is utilised is a sin too but there are methods of prayashchitas too. For the welfare of mankind you have to access whom you are dealing with a most powerful demon or an ordinary person. If you have to deal with a terrorist you need to use arms and even kill him if he is a dire problem. You should explain your son simply the role of a police man/ army gaurding the nations use voilence to combat terror. In sprtuality there are various types of dealing with sinners for some the killing of demons like Ravana, Kansa and other mighty powerful ones God has to create a counter programme that could eliminate the EVIL intensions of Adharmi individuls and on the other hand where you have to deal with the common man you have to guide vast population to follow a faith and bring people on a common platform to attain harmony and peace. No incarnation can be compared with each other. Jesus the son of God fufiled a mission and blessed the world with his guidance and a noble thought but people got stuck in Churchanity instead. Mulsims received Holy Koran but today fanaticism knew no limits through its powerful followers. Hindus have a vast tresure of knowledge but most of them are busy in caste based practices and the entire world is on one side struglling for everything to achieve things through easy methods. There is no easy way to attain goals. One who has created a room for voilence gets voilence and one who deservs to be dealt with a non voilent ways get the same way and let this to be decided by the almighty and let humans do not decide on this as we lack that supreme vision that decides everything for every being present in this world. It is so upto you to follow a path that God deals accordingly for you. So simple if a terrorist bothers a nation authorities counter his actions through like agencies. If there is a person approaching or bothering authorities is dealt through dialogue and pecefully things are settled. To get convinced for the actions of incarnations you have to study the related scriptures to realise the truth. One can not be greater than other just by making a foolish assesment that one has used voilence and another has used non voilent tactic to attain something. You need to know the missions of each incarnation and at the end you will find that all had a different missions and people with different powers to deal with. If we are dealing with a rustler we must know that one is to be defeated with same trade. IF one us a poor man one has to deal with him in the simple fashion. A poor man can not be dealt with voilence. Judge the situations of both the eras you will and can satisfy your curious son. Even study voilence and non voilence in real terms. When you eat something you fulfil your need to support/ maintain your physical state. Will you stop eating just because one day you came to know that eating too in a way leads one to act via voilent means. Do not you cut plants, kill animals and while eating eat several unseen things? All the incarnations acted as per their respective TIME and requirements. One who had to use weapons used them perfectly and one who had to use compassion and love used it the brilliant way. It is upto the people for whom these greats are born as to how they deal with them. That is why incarnations acted differently but all established superiority of Dharma the truth over Evil on this globe. With regards Love and knowledge! Dalip Langoo -- 1. Hindu gods are not to be understood in the same way as the judaic / greek gods. they are manifestations of the self and relate to our own psychological processes. this has been understood recently in the west as archetypes of the self and forms part of CG jungs analytical psychology. 2. Though Hindu gods always seem to be involved in wars (conflict is a better term) hindus are generally characterised as being non-violent and gandhi is one example of this. most international violence and acts of terrorism these days are related to the middleeast the home of judaism, christianity and islam, not to hinduism, buddhism, jainism, sikhism, taoism or any other pagan tradition please read 'the god delusion' by richard dawkins Ravi Bakhsi -------------------------------- Nevertheless, in an age when artistic depiction is misused for anti- Hindu propaganda as mentioned, Hindus have to reflect and ask whether such artistic depiction is doing harm to how their faith/culture is being perceived by others and by their youth, and whether we should advise against such depictions. It is defensive and slavish mentality that Hindus are falling prey to the mechanisations of others. When one believe in one god, can there be different ones ? How Hindus or somebody else want to depict their Gods is their choice. Hindus dont have to feel sorry about making pictures of their Gods. It is none one else's concern. Sampuran sINGH - PRIOR POSTING Dear Shri Iyer: Namaskaram with respects. Hindu concept of Dharma, according to my feeble understanding, makes a distinction between violence required by one's duties, and violence done mindlessly or to seek pleasure. When a king punishes a criminal, it is done to prevent further crime, and is therefore not himsa. The distinction between himsa and ahimsa is very nicely explained in Mahabharat at several places. To my mind, the present confusion is due to advocacy of extreme ahimsa by Gandhi ji. This led to a mixing of personal dharma of an ordinary citizen with that of raj dharma of the state and the king. Gandhi ji's interpretation of ahimsa is valid only in satyuga. How would you deal with Somalian pirates by using ahimsa? Gandhiji's ahimsa itself succeeded perhaps only once – against the British. It failed against others. Further, while Hindu gods are shown armed to the teeth, Hindus themselves have remained relatively peace oriented. In other systems, the Gods have been depicted as peaceful, but the followers have been very violent. Therefore, my view is that the symbolic arming of Hindu gods is aspirational (as is the peaceful depiction in other systems), as a means to encourage Hindus to be a little more war-like. Secondly, the violence by the Hindu deities has almost always been in response to the needs of the people, and not out of spite or anger. Hope this is useful, Sanjay Agarawal - Here in the UK, we have been considering this issue for some time. During the last 2 to 3 years, we have had Christian priests telling us that Hindu faith and its gods are violent and preach violence – `look at the pictures of your gods!', they say. The letter from Shree G A Iyer thus rang de ja vu-bells for me. 1. The paintings and other depictions of Hindu divinities are the work of artists who have enjoyed, and continue to enjoy, the freedom of artistic expression their faith community has traditionally granted them. Nowhere in the scriptures is it decreed that we have to paint pictures of gods/goddesses nor that we have to show gods/goddesses carrying weapons. But to-date no one has questioned why we undertake such depictions. 2. Islam forbids artistic expressions of anything divine, or of Muhammed. Christians actively depict Christ, but only in a peaceful/suffering pose. 3. If we bear in mind that what we are being told today through revised editions and mis-translations of scriptures of faiths is somewhat different from the original scriptures, the artistic stereotyping may not necessarily correspond to the actual `life- history' of the concerned figures and their teachings. 4. Christians believe that Christ was the son of God, but he was unable to stop injustice and cruelty and gave his life in the process. That is their belief. Hindus believe in incarnation of the divine who uses supernatural powers as a last resort to destroy evil. This is not to be equated with the concept of `violence' in the ordinary human terms. Once the order is restored and the righteous victims of evil are liberated from the tyranny of the evil-doer, the avatar no longer resorts to the so-called `violence' and returns to the normal benevolent peaceful form. Our scriptures describe God as the source of bliss and auspiciousness, the avatar coming to protect devotees, to restore righteousness, and order to nature and cosmos when such is threatened. 5. Faiths should be judged i) on the basis not of propaganda but on what is actually written in their scriptures, and ii) on the actions of the faith communities. Contrast Hindus [and their record of non- aggression against other countries and against other faiths – even of giving sanctuary to those faiths fleeing persecution elsewhere – Jews, Parsees, Assyrian Christians], with the followers of other faiths who have acted to decimate other faith-based civilisations and committed genocides in India, Americas, Australia, etc. etc., almost succeeding in wiping out various civilisations and races. Nevertheless, in an age when artistic depiction is misused for anti- Hindu propaganda as mentioned, Hindus have to reflect and ask whether such artistic depiction is doing harm to how their faith/culture is being perceived by others and by their youth, and whether we should advise against such depictions. Unfortunately this is easier said than done. How do you persuade those who make money out of this industry to cease such activities? Time to reflect. Girdhari - Namaste Sadhakas.. Sumangal Suprabhat... As per my belief in our hindu religion, there is only one God " Parmatma " . All the names you noted like Shri Rama, Krishna, Durga etc. are its " Ansha " who took birth as Human being to taught us about " Dharma " & to spread " Peace & Love " . Param Parmatma created this beautiful Earth/Shrushti for us. He is controlling us. If someone is not following his 'Rules of life' and troubling others. He / she must get punished for others well-being & to keep Peace in the world. Example : If you have a box of fruits & one of them get spoiled what you will do..?? You will remove that spoiled fruit so that other fruits will remain good otherwise that one fruit will spoil others. Thanks Satish Pawaskar Keep Smiling Always ;-) India ------------------------------ God is suddha, buddha, muktha swaroopa. For killing somebody, one has to get angry. (krodha) God does not get krodha. (If it becomes angry, none of us will be thre.) To kill somebody, you have to get angry. Only, we become angry and therefore we cannot be God. Krodha is the resultant of Kaama (Aasakthi). When you slap your son, does he start praising you...? does he get Aananda. Rama never killed Ravana. Ravana is described as Moha (Aasakthi). Rama killed only the Aasakthi which was there in Ravana. The praisings of Ravana is well clearly written. Once some body goes thru it, one can understand that Rama never killed Ranava but the God gave him the Moksha. regards vijayan kiliyil ----------------------------- Hindu Gods demonstrate ;- Nip the evil in the bud. They never lose patience.the annhilation of the evil is done after many many chances for abondoning the violence against innocent are provided to the asuras (demons), who usually ignore these. Regards Shiban Raina ------------------------------ Dear Shri Iyer, Please refer to your mail of November 10/11. You say that you are a senior citizen and also a staunch Hindu, but in my eyers, you seem to be utterly confused about the basic Hindu faith. Unfortunately, most of the modern educated Hindus suffer from this confusion according to me. Resultantly, the upcoming Hindu generation is alsmost uprooted from their Hindu base. Your question as to why Hindu Gods are depicted to be showing violence (killing or annihilating evil physically), betrays ignorance of the basic Hindu tenet that Parameshwara or Paramatma (God) is one. Only Devatas and Devis, who have a positive effect on human beings are many. Parents and Gurus too are counted among Devatas, (Matridevo bhava, Pitridevo bhava). Paramatma's creative faculty personified as Brahma has no armament or weapon. Vishnu representing His executive faculty and Rudra (Shiva) representing the assimilation or dissolution faculty alone bear a weapon in one hand whereas the other hand bears a protective gesture. It only symbolises punishment to the evil doer and protection to the righteous ones. The message is concretized in the Geeta, " Paritranayaya sadhunam vinashaya cha dushkritam/ Dharma sansthapanarthaya sambhavami yuge yuge, " (From time to time, I appear on earth in order to protect the righteous ones, destroy the evil doers and to establish the rule of Dharma, i.e., righteousness or rule of law). In the Mahabharatha, (Shanti-parva, chap. 57), Bhishma Pitamah tells Yudhishthir, " The greatest sin of a king is his failure to protect his subjects. He should protect the dharma of all his Varnas. (It means that every citizen should be able to pursue his or her chosen vocation/occupation, education, trade, business, farming, lending services, doing government or private job, without let or hindrance). The king should act like Yamaraj in administering justice and like Kuber in collection of revenue. He should make provision for those who cannot support themselves and should take good care of those who help the destitute " Such lessons of Hindu scriptures have been ignored . Resultantly, they have brought the country to a breaking point. In Raj dharma, the question of violence and non-violence is irrelevant. Yours sincerely, Ram Gopal ------------------------------- -Shree Hari- There has been a lot of mention of various gods killing, in conflict, the Divine Feminine has been mentioned also on this thread. Now, I do not know these ancient Vedic literatures, but have some insights to other bronze age traditions. Emmanuel Vilakovski considered that the various ancient Greek stories of waring gods, was actually the remembrance of ancient astronomic events. I have seen on this thread, Sadhaks inferring that these ancient sagas of warring gods, was the primordial forces at work. Other Sadhaks have in my opinion, correctly pointed out that the Abrahamic traditions are the most warlike, I have an explanation as to why. Here is a quote from the book, 'A shewing of God's Love', (written by an Christian medieval female mystic ). " The mother may fold her child tenderly to her breast , but our tender Mother Jesus, He may homely lead into His blessed Breast....... " (Notice the Feminine/Masculine aspects here ). When I first read this, I thought of, (hard to believe I know), Shakti , Quan Yin , Mother Mary, and Asherah, known also as Elat , the feminine aspect of El, ( The supreme GOD). You see, She has been factored out of the world, (perhaps She is retuning, I pray She is). I ask you. Would She desire her children to kill each other.? The point is Asherah was forced out of the traditions of Israel and Judah, leaving in the minds of those people, Yahweh, without his consort, thus the Divine Feminine, the Nurturer ,was no longer in their hearts, the growth of the Patriarch religion had started. So the god of their tradition became a god of war and and male dominance. The great Swami Vivekananda pointed out the horror of the millions that were killed in the name of that (unbalanced) god . Bede Griffiths regarded a religion without balance as demonic. Sri Krishna pointed out to Arjuna that, he (Arjuna) had no memory of his past lives. Now consider this. If a swami, a doctor, maybe a Sister of Mercy, or any sweet soul., suddenly remembered with great clarity , being a warrior, raising the battle- ax, or sword in brutal warfare , what would they think. A soul can weary of war, did not Lord Krishna point out it was only the flesh and blood that was being destroyed in warfare. Many have said that the external world is a reflection of mankind's inner self. With Respect and Divine Love. Mike Keenor ---------------------------- Respected Sir, It is not the question of God or human being, the central theme is that " a woman is most often linked and the cause of fights / wars " as well as, down fall ! It may appear to be crude, but still there seems to be a connection, am I not correct? Barin Chatterjee ----------------------------- In Short, Hindus believe in the principle so nonviolence that is practical and can be practiced in day to day life. Christians believe in a Utopian nonviolence theory that neither they nor anyone else can practice. To elaborate, I suppose your son is not old enough to introspect and understand. First of all there are no Hindu Gods and Christian god. There is just ONE power that is omnipresent in all the things/beings. And it (I will not call it he or she) is not really non-violence per our definition, else no one ever died, no one got killed and there was no war ever etc. I understand that your son is really referring to the incarnations / perceptions of Gods that Hindus and Christians respectively believe in. First thing that you need to know is per Christians Jesus is not a God. He is the " Son of God " or the Messiah. Per Christians God never incarnated but Hindus do believe that God incarnates and so there is no point in comparing their perception of God to Hindu perception. Mahatma Gandhi's nonviolence was predominantly adopted from Christianity to fight them back on their own turf and with their own weapon. Persecution of nonviolent people by British brought back the memories of persecution of Jesus and his disciples and received extensive coverage and support from rest of the Christian world, forcing British out of India. In India Buddha preached and followed non violence, however, his disciples when they went to China to teach Buddhism they first learned martial arts to protect themselves during the journey. This is how martial art first reached China which they later expanded upon. Nonviolence shouldn't be confused with cowardice. Nonviolence means not hurting others for pleasure and self-fulfillment. However, fighting (and if needed killing) for protecting self and others can not be categorized as Violence. Nonviolence also means giving peace a chance before waging a war. That is why both Ram and Krishna sent a last peace message to Ravan and Duryodhan so the war could be avoided. Anand Awasthi PRIOR POSTING If you have some problem in any part of your body, first you try to cure it, but when it becomes incurable it has to be cut off to prevent rest of the body. World is viraat swaroop (Universal Form) of God. All creatures are parts of it. Things become clear when you think from God's point of view. Thanks Raja Gurdasani - Dear Sadhakas, Namaste! Shashikala Bahenji, right you are: " who can kill who " , as all is immortal/imperishable! I guess Sadhakas are answering in the best possible ways they know, because it is to be explained by a father to a son who is asking such questions as he should. Perhaps it is a giant leap to grasp such concept as immortality, which may not be appreciated at this stage in son's life! My short answer is: " when one inquires into deeper meanings of God, Life, Death, Incarnations, (non)Violence, being Hindu, Hindu Gods etc, one may come upon understanding that many questions like this get answered in the satisfactory way " . Now I would teach my son these things, but I didn't know myself when they were growing up! In my experience the best answer to one's question is the disappearance of question itself in the light of understanding question, as J Krishnamurti used to say " Please see that the answer is in the question " . Namaskar..... Pratap Bhatt ----------------------------- Hari Om 'Violence' is a relative term. Basically in the divine play of God, humans enjoy certain liberties of conduct. There are laws governing the entire creation. Humans have immense powers but identification with the mind and body makes them 'desire' for worldly temporary pleasures. Here they come in conflict with another law- desires can never be fulfilled, you can only renounce them. In order to fulfill the desires, one indulges into violence. 'Gods' in order to keep the creation going 'mete out' the results of deeds in an equally violent manner- as you sow, so shall you reap.. In fact, when they do so, they are liberating the souls from darkness. Hence, it is all 'play' , there is no violence, there is only 'mercy', there is only 'love' emanating from the top. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B -------------------------------- Namaste, Sanatana Dharma is not a simplistic/moralistic philosophy where things/ acts are categorised as eternally good or bad. It is the context that determines whether an act is good or bad. consequently when adharma prevails - the destruction/ killing of the 'asuras' is necessary for greater good. To give you an analogy - a knife might be considered as an instrument for violence but it is also necessary for cutting vegetables etc. The oft quoted verse 'ahimsa paramo dharmah' from the Gita is only half of the entire line which concludes with 'dharma himsa tathaiva cha' - himsa is equally valid when used for dharma. Gods in our tradition perpetrated violence against those forces that prevented Truth / dharma from prevailing and therefore cannot be judged in the same tone as those who commit senseless violence. Hope this helps. Shubhamastu Anuradha Choudry -------------------------------- Many Rishis such as 'Balmiki' were masters of weaponry and yet they opted not to fight because they are Brahmins, not authorized to slay but authorized to teach. The TriDev Brahma, Vishnu and Maheswar are in-charge of this universe and they have to do whatever is good for mankind. Manoj Padhi ------------------------------- fellow sadhakaas, namasteji..There is no escape from birth and death cycles..all our prayers wish peace and happiness..three times...But..if you can't defend yourself with vachaa, love..etc..you have to kill by Mantra or sahastra..even God had to exterminate terror by bad elements. Hari Om Vishnu Dada (Vishnu Patel) -- PRIOR POSTING There is only one God. No Hindu God or Muslim God or Christian God. They are all one and the same. Besides all human beings, irrespective of religion have souls whose ultimate destiny is to merge with God or the Parmatma. So to say this God is violent and the other is not is an exercise in futility. Hari Shanker Deo - Dear Mr. Iyer, Gods created all creatures on earth. A few of them tried to supercede GOD and also tried to destabilise the world. GOD had to ensure that these creatures do not wreak havoc. hence the destruction of evil. Anil Jain - Jai Hanuman Where is the question of some one " killing " another, when everyone is " immortal/imperishable " as a law ? Can any sadhak enlighten me, Jee ? So that I may address this question !! Kindly help, Jee ! Jee !! 'Violence' by 'Gods' ! Raam, Raam, Raam !! Mike Bhaiyya ! Pratap Bhaiyya! Sathyanarainji !! Adrien !! Any one Jee ! But quickly Jee !! Will you come to my rescue with reference to 'self' and 'Gitaji' - Jee! Jee ! ! Your sister is too stunned and anxious by the question, Jee ! Who can kill whom Jee ! What do you say Adrien ? Namaste Jee Jee Jee Shashikala ----------------------------- ----------------------------- 1. Hindu gods are to be understood in the same way as the judaic / greek gods. they are manifestations of the self and relate to our own psychological processes. this has been understtood recently in the west as archetypes of the self and forms part of CG jungs analytical psychology. 2. though Hindu gods always seem to be involved in wars (conflict is a better term) hindus are generally characterised as being non- violent and gandhi is one example of this. Majority of the international violence and acts of terrorism these days are related to the middleeast the home of judaism, christianity and islam, not to hinduism, buddhism, jainism, sikhism, taoism or any other pagan tradition. please read 'the god delusion' by richard dawkins for great understanding. Ravi Bakhsi Dear Mr Iyer, Violence is something that you cannot avoid. Tell me when you eat vegetarian food do you not think that those vegetables and rice and dal and other such food also grew which means they had a life. Which means that the vegetables and rice were alive and were killed for your ultimate consumption. That is violence to a lesser degree. What makes you think that violence does not occur everyday? Even when you breathe you kill millions of bacteria that enter your nose and mouth. Let me put it to you that without a section of the population taking the initiative of killing bad elements in any society, others do not have the luxury of being non-violent. hope this helps Prashanth Thirukkonda - Dear spiritual brothers and sisters, Vedas do not advise just non violence but lay emphasis on Non Violence of the strong. Prakrti- the divine subtle Nature which is our Supreme Mother according to Vedas is extremely strong and powerful but largely peaceful and non violent. She provides a Book of Nature which even blind people and even animals/fishes/birds can read and wants us to follow Rts- Her cosmic laws of necessity for our social, moral and physical order. Like any benevolent and loving mother she remains peaceful and affectioante most of the time but gets extremly violent when we flout her Cosmic Laws of Nature and start spreading social, moral and physical evils. Hindu gods (Ishwaras) are Not God- as there is only One universal God for the entire mankind wise men describe Him with different names. All the Hindu gods/goddesses (Ishwaras/devas/devis) are extremely powerful and strong but like Prakrti merciful, benevolent and always keen to ensure that cosmic Laws of nature (Rta) are observed by all her children who are noble people. Thus Hindu Ishwaras/devas/devis are the greatest followers of Non violence of the Strong but get violent if evil is spread in society, environment is polluted and hydra headed CORRUPTION with Nine Heads over takes virtue, ethics, divine thoughts and social nobilty. Incidentally Mahatma Gandhi never talked of Non Violence in a general way but always talked of Non Violence of the Strong. He wanted people of India to become morally, spiritually and physically strong and then non violent. Non violence of the Weak is self destruction. He has greatly emphasised this point in his Biography " My Experiment With Truth " . None of our gods/godesses become violent for the sake of violence but give a very long rope to evil people to change and behave conforming to Vedic Rta but those non divine people (Avarnas/Vritras) who encourage all actions against Laws of Nature and create social, moral and physics pollution strict action is taken by Hindu Ishwras/devas/devis. with kind regards, Prem Sabhlok -- PRIOR POSTING Shree Hari Ram Ram Shri Iyer Bhaiyya, Tell your son simply that to eradicate evil, one has to engage in violence. If your son understands about a scorpion and his sting, then ask him that if a scorpion comes into the house and is running around to sting someone, what would he do? Sometimes, a question posed against a question, can be a better clarifier, than an answer. So be it ! Vineet Sarvottam -------------------------------- Dear Sadhak, According to the Yajnavalkya Samhita, ahimsa or non-violence is the awareness and practice of non-violence in thought, speech and action. Do we practice Non-violence at that lavel ??? Do we not kill mosquitoes, cockroches and so many other so called " harmful being " according to us? What do you say about - Hang till death, cutting hands of a thief and so many other such so called justice orders? All our Puranas have symbolic meaning, they want us to look deep inside us. The war between good and evil is going on inside us only. Do we not need to " kill " our bad thoughts ? Do we call killing of our bad thoughts/demonic qualities as the act of violence ? Who gives power to kill those bad qualities within ? Ya Devi Sarvabhuteshu Shakti rupen sansthita Namstasye, namstasye, Namstasye namo Nama " I bow to the Divine Mother Who resides within me as Power/Strength " Thus MaaDurga-Goddess of Motherly Love, Mother of sur (Demigods/our good qualities) and Asura(Devils/our bad qualities) alike, cannot be blamed as performing violence. She is washing away the evils of Her sons by purifying them through Her divine weapons, and ultimately merging them all in Her own Divine Love. Similarly Lord Shiva, who drank vemon for the welfare of the entire universe, whose another name is Bhole Baba(Innocent God who pleases easily and bless us without considering our good/bad karmas) can not even think of violence. Read more about Him and you will know how merciful is He. We cannot know about our Gods until we know our own self. The Supreme is seated right into our own Heart. Look within, meditate deeply and know Thy Self. Surrender to Gitaji and go beyond the duality of this world. Krishna says- " I am the goal, the sustainer, the master, the witness, the abode, the refuge and the most dear friend. I am the creation and the annihilation, the basis of everything, the resting place and the eternal seed. " Gitaji Ch 9:18 He is All then who is killing whom ? We are not the body, and suffering is all illusion arising from the Nature. If we want to see peace, love and bliss in the world, we have to " BE " peace, love and bliss. There is no other way. There is no Hindu GOD or Christian God. There is only ONE, and that ONE GOD cannot be understood by debate as He is beyond duality, beyond mind, intellect. God can only be experienced. If your son wants to understand Sanatan Dharma, present him with a Gitaji. Read Gitaji over and over again, contemplate on each stanza. Come back and answer your own question. With lots of Love, A sadhika Sadhna Karigar - Dear Sir, We all need to better understand the Hindu philosophy and its message. First of all we need to understand the meaning of non- violence. Does it mean only physical act of killing or harming? No. any act leading to harm or hurt others through thought, word or deed is Non-violence. A physical act of killing in a war with a pure intension of good of the mankind is again not classified as violence. Unfortunately, this thought also is misunderstood, misinterpreted and misused now a days. When a mother slaps a child it is not called violence. because the act originates out of Love. The stories which you are referring to are from an era when evil could be identified as a person. who in many cases knew what is evil or wrong but could not help act in that influence.. that time to remove the evil was to destroy them. Even if you look at the story of Gods killing... you would find that it was the last resort. Even those 'evil' people were given all the possible chances and opportunities to change. Only when they refused to comply and the suffering of good become unbearable the physical act of annihilation was performed, to reinstate the faith, to restore righteousness. It is high time we realize that spirituality is not for weak. it requires Will of Shankra, courage of Vivekanand. Today good and evil have become seen in every person. hence to destroy the evil path of annihilation of the person is not resorted. In todays time the solution is - Transformation of heart. for this the divine beings use various methods. even allowing themselves to suffer. Lets not misinterpret their divine pure act of grace. We are such people who would not hesistate to crucify Jesus and do nothing to stop and fight against but will be first to feel pity after the act is done. we dont want to self introspect why he was crucified. we are just contented to know that he was crucified for our sins. As if the godly people have the obligation to be crucified while we continue on our unjust ways. if you love Jesus then share his pain by being good and just. be open and understanding, be loving towards all. God has given each one enough strength to fight our own battles. be willing to suffer the punishments for the mistake committed, dont pass it on to god or godly people and expect them to suffer for you. I request you to not use such words " hindu gods lose patience " . this thought itself is full of ignorance. First of all know - There is only one GOD and he is omnipresent, omniscience, and omni-potent. What ever God does is for good of all. Even the physical act of so called violence is for the good. it is for us to understand how, when and why he does what he does. Even to qualify to question god we must first become a humble student. then may be the divine wisdom would fall on us to understand and enjoy the bliss of his grace. sai ram Abhimanyu Kaul Sadaks With birth comes death. Mahatma Gandhi fought with weapons he had i.e. none, but you cannot run a country on that philosophy as India found out with China. We must all defend Dharma. This is the best. A persons duty is to live according to Dharma and to defend it. From Ahimsa paramo dharmaha, Dharma himsa tathaiva cha. This Is the full proper statement. Each person has to follow the work according to his caste and station in life. Kshatriyas job is to defend and fight for dharma. This is amply show in Gita, Ramayan, Mahabharat, in FACT THE ONLY HOLY BOOK WRITTEN ON A BATTLE FIELD IS THE GITA. Non violence is the best Dharma, but to attain it HIMSA (violence) is required to defend this is the message. Jayesh A Patel PRIOR POSTING dear brother loves and best wishes. The creator Himself has said in Geeta that the very purpose of His incarnation in human form is to destroy the wicked, to save the righteous. In fact this seems to be one of the necessary divine rule. Moreover non-violence does not mean not to resist evil. thanks. ck kaul ------------------------------- II SHRI HARI II Respected Shri Iyer Ji, One must understand God or Lord, a Prophet and Saint in their respective capacity. Our Gods and Hindu Dharma do not follow the principle of Violence (Hinsa) and in fact, Violence (Hinsa) has no place in any of Hindu scriptures and character of our Gods and Saints. Our scriptures say " Ahinsa Param Dharmo " (Non-violence is the ultimate (basis) of religion). Life (Leela) of our Gods and Saints show no violence whatsoever. To understand this you must go through our scriptures carefully under the guidance of eminent Sdhakas and participate in the Satsang of our great Saints (Sad Gurus). In Sanatan Dharma, there are mainly five Gods (Panch Devas) and only these Panch Devas are worshipped. Although, there are thirty three crore Devi Devtas and they are all the parts of only Panch Devas. In other religions we do not find Gods but the great Saints who are said to be Sons of Gods and sent by God to spread peace and the teachings of Gods. Our religion spreads over infinite time, you can count the origination and time for the others. First of all it is important to understand Ravna, Bali, Kans and numerous other Asur (Rakshasas). All these Asur were God's devotees (Bhaktas) and following the path of Vair (enmity) Bhakti (devotion for enmity). There are two type of devotees (Bhaktas) first Premi Bhaktas (dveotees who love God) and second the Vairi Bhaktas (devotees who keep enmity with God). Purpose of both devotees is same i.e. attainment of God. Ravna and his brother Kumbh Karan both were Jay and Vijay the Door Men (Dwar Pal) of Lord Vishnu's Vaikuntha lok. One day Sanakadik Rishis were going to meet God Vishnu in the Vaikunthalok and Jay and Vijay the Door Men (Dwar Pal) of Lord's Vaikunthalok stopped them at the door saying that they can not enter Vaikuntha without God Vishnu's permission, which was quite surprising as Rishis and Saints do not require permission to enter any of Divya Lokas. Therefore, Sanakadik Rishis got angry over the attitude of Jay and Vijay the Door Men (Dwar Pal) of Lord Vaikuntha and passed on curse (Shraap) to Jay and Vijay to take birth three times in Asuras (Rakshasas). Frightened by the curse (Shraap), Jay and Vijay fell on the lotus feet of Sanakadik Rishis for mercy (Daya) and Lord Vishnu also requested Sanakadik Rishis to show some compassion and Sanakadik Rishis relaxed their curse (Shraap) and told that though Jay and Vijay will take birth in Asur Kul (Rakshasas, Demons) but Lord Vishnu will take reincarnation (Avtaar) for their welfare (Udhar). And Sanakadik Rishis said this will happen likewise (Tthasthu). Accordingly, Jay and Vijay the Door Men (Dwar Pal) of Lord Vishnu's Vekunthalok, took birth in Asur Kul in Treta Yug and Lord Ram took incarnation (Avtaar) for their well being (Udhar). Ravna and his brother Kumbh Karan along with numerous Asurs (demoniac beings) were killed and each of them went to Satlok. In Dwaapar they took birth as Dantvakra and Shishupal, the associates of Kans, and Lord Krishna took incarnation (Avtaar) for their well being (Udhar). Dantvakra and Shishupal along with so many Asurs were killed by Lord Krishna and each of these Asurs (demoniac ones) went to Lord Krishna's dham (abode). When the Jeev gets Lord's Divya Lok on his death, he is called Badbhagi (great in destiny) as he gets Lord's Divya Lok which the Sadhu, saints, Rishi and sadhakas long for. For each of the Lord's incarnation (Avtaar), there are various reasons (Hetu) and to fulfill each of the reason (Hetu) Lord takes incarnation (Avtaar) for the welfare of Lord's devotees (Bhaktas). Ram Charit Manas states " RAM JANAM KE HETU ANEKA, PARAM VICHITRA EK TE EKA " . You can understand these only by participating in the Satsang and by carefully going through and understanding our holy scriptures like Shreemad Bhagwat, Ram Charit Manas, Shiv Mha Puran, Skand Puran, Vedas, Upnishaidas, Shruty and Samrity granthas and even sidh Chalisa like hanuman Chalisa, Durga Chalisa, Shive Chalisa and so on. Perhaps you do not know about the sacrifice of our great Rishis and Saints and that's why you are quoting the example of Jesus. Our Dadhichi Rishi sacrificed his body to give his bones (Asthiyan) to Indra Dev the king of Devtaas to make Vajra from the Rishi's bones (Asthiyan) for killing Vritasur Asur to save the Srishti from demolition. Sanatan Dharma possesses infinite knowledge of the Infinite Lord. No other religion possesses such a large variety of Holy Scriptures. There are four Vedas, 301 Upnishaidas, 18 Puranas, Vedant and enormous Saint Charitar, Saint Vaani, Guru Vaani etc. It is simply enormous! That's why it is stated in Ram Charit Manas " HARI ANANT HARI KATHA ANANTA , KAHI SUNI BAHU VIDHI SAB SANTA " . The Gatha (Katha) of Ananat Bhagwan, the One whose birth and death is not known to any body, the One who is unborn and do not die and the One who is beyond birth and death is INFINITE (Aseem, Athaha)! How can men like us who are definite, limited in life and strength can know his Katha. Sanatan Dharma is a non-violent religion. Do not be misconceived or misguided. Go to Satsang, read our holy scriptures and then only you will be able to express your true quest (Jigyas) for knowledge. May Bhagwan Shree Hari Har satisfy your doubts! Shubham Astu, RAJINDER MOHAN VOHRA -------------------------- Thank you for forwarding this letter. I believe Krishna never resorted to any violence - he tried to protect non-violence. Krishna never advised Arjuna to kill people or resort to violence. Can you show anywhere in GITA Krishna advising a war? Gods are to protect non-violence and to maintain dharma. They are not Saints. Lovingly Dr.Uday Pai -------------------------- Dear Sir: Perhaps Hindu Gods resort to " violence " so that Hindu people stay peaceful. Only Hinduism can create a Gandhi, as you pointed out, the staunches non-violent person. While other religion's God may not appear to be violent, the people of other religion appear to be more violent than Hindus, as can be observed by events today and by events of History. Viz. Followers of a " peaceful " Jesus initiated the Crusades. So maybe there is an inverse relationship between the behavior of Gods and their followers ?? (Based on my understanding, the old testament of the Christians is full of violence. " Slay the idolators, destroy the idols " , " leave no man, woman, child, animals of the enemy alive " to paraphrase some of the writings.) Also, the violence of the Hindu Gods is not mindless violence. There are some people who only listen to violence. For example, the terrorists who are bombing innocent people in India can only be handled thru like minded treatment. Perhaps, publicly blowing up a terrorist in the same place he planted bombs to kill innocent people is the only language he will listen to. So in that sense I wish Hindus would get more aggressive to seek justice. And Dharma requires this. Dilip Bhagat --------------------------- Hare Ram Hare Krishna Dear Sir, Pranam If your question has arisen out of a thirst to understand the God, then I whole heartedly welcome it and try to put my views as below. However if it has arisen with an intention of malice, then it is time to quit all false books/thoughts leading you to such confusions or debates and concentrate only on the divine Gita - the ultimate guide to reach the one and only God. According to the holy Gita, God is the most superior, the ultimate power, the invincible, and is always victorious. The common sense also confirms this, otherwise anyone can defeat God and he/she can become God. Just as living things are created by God, it is His duty to digest them within Himself and give life to new ones to maintain the balance of this universe. This digestion into Himself has happened in many ways - in the form of moksha to the Rushis who had spent a peaceful life worshipping Him throughout their life, in the form of death to those who approached a violent form of life and in several ways. This had been confirmed by the existence of Lord Krishna, who is the ONE and ONLY GOD in this world and Bhagavad Gita is the proof for it. The portraying of victory of good over evil have been depicted as VIOLENT for common man to understand but it is all part of his MAYA ! And remember it was the choice Jaya and Vijaya made to die in the hands of the God Himself three times as evil doers than to be his devotees and wait for the MOKSHA after 6 rebirths. And why do you focus only at these depictions and see it as a physical violence while there are plenty of instances in puranas where God had been so merciful and loving - mokhas to rushis, life to the dead, etc. I hope my explanation will answer you that God doesn't lose patience and resort to violence. Regarding your reference to Jesus, He was a messiah of peace who suffered and died for the people. A God is there to protect the good from evil. If God cannot protect himself in the hands of evil, how can he protect the good from the evil? From my perspectivie it is illogical to think that someone suffered pain in the past for the sins which will be committed by future generations. It should be the other way round. And the existence of Lord Krishna is the best example of the triumph of God over evil or mere mortals. He killed the evil and he was always victorious. He was so merciful to end his incarnation in the hands of his beloved devotee as per his promise in his previous incarnation as Lord Rama. I hope and pray that you and your son will read the divine Gita with a positive mind-set, as all of us should do, and attain Lord Krishna with our good thoughts and deeds. Hare Ram Hare Krishna SRIKANTH MOHAN KETHU --------------------------- Dear Sadak, The statement of Sri Iyer GA that Bagavan Shiva killed Kameswar. Dear Sir, Vayu Bagavan is wind, Varna Bagavan is Rain and so on. The demi gods are having No specific form. They are Pancha Boothas. Kameswar is not GOD or demi God. Kameswar is symbol of desire. Kama + Easwaran-- means Kama desire-- Easwaran ruler. Kameswaran is ruler of desires. Bagavan Shiva killed Kameswar by HIS 3rd eye. We can also kill desires by our 3rd eye Gyana located between 2 eye brows were thilak is put upon. Again-- Kama never leaves anyone by its nature. But it did not work out in case of Bagavan Shiva. Also purana says that Kameswar was given back the power. This Kameswar was sent by Indra to distrub Bagavan Vishnu while doing Yogic Tapas in Badrinath. Kameswar failed in his attempt and Sri Vishnu gave Menaka a very beautiful looking lady as present to Indra through Kameswar. These puranas have hidden concepts. B.Sathyanarayan --------------------------- Evil can not be fought with platitudes. For example if we stand with folded hands before terrorists then they will gain the upper hand. That is what our ancient books teach us. Our Gods fought evil even in Satyug and we should fight evil in Kaliyug too. That is the lesson for us. Even in Christian countries, they have armies and give death sentences to murderers. Remember Iraq and Afghanistan? Hari Shanker Deo ----------------------------- I don't think there should be so much concern about " Hindu " " Gods " . The word Hindu itself is a misnomer, and should not be used to characterize the Bharatyia philosphical traditions. Most linguists will agree that it started with the " Satem/hatem " divide in the IE languages, and the " hatem " group residing outside the geopolitical context of the subcontinent who corrupted Sindhu into Hindu. Sindhu was a part of the " Mahabharatm " of Krishna and not the whole. The Arabs do mention " Hind-va-Sind " in the 7-8th century chronicles, thereby distinguishing and extending the concept from mere " Sindhu " . But no " Hindu " inscriptions use the term until 15th century. There are also many " Gods " . Vishnu descends as avatar, but Shiva does not. The Gods do not always show fairness in their treatment and this is the reason sometimes they have to justify their actions by introducing " past life karma " , something obviously unverifiable by the majority of the commoners. The Ramayana story as popularly rendered omits certain crucial details from the Balmiki version relevant for this topic, like that of why Ravana had to be invited by Rama to perform the rites of initiation ( " Bodhana " ) of Chandi/Durga - the same rites carried out by the avatar of Vishnu to gain ultimate victory over Ravana. Ravana was the best " Brahmin " available (what happened to " caste " - the same " caste " which has even found its way into the Gita as something whose breakdown by the " women " and others leads to eventual destruction of " civilization " and " dharma " - the Asura clan Ravana, who fights and abducts women like the Kshatryias being a Brahmin!) for even Brahma had omitted Gayatri recitation for one " Sandhya " and was unfit as a " yagnik " (lets not go into the actual reason as to why he could not - as it might throw some lights on possible motivations even in this fountainhead of " Brahmanya " revelation). The " Gods " and the " Asuras " both derived from the same " father " , and to start with they were not even " immortal " . They had to coopt the asura " siblings " to extract " amrita " and then needed Vishnu to cheat them of their legitimate share. The Gods get tempted by the beauty of mortal women, like Ahalya, and seduce or rape them. It becomes convenient then later to invent " bad past Karma " to justify such unfair treatment of humans. In this the common Gods do resemble (and were perhaps in reality just deification of actual humans or modeled on the " aristocracy " of the time) the common historical behaviour of elite ruling class. The real strength of Bharatyia philosophy should be sought in a proper analysis and absorption of the Upanishads, the Gita, and the Mahabharatam - the last two being essentially statements on political society and individual's relation with that of the state and the social group. These have little to do with the " Gods " - Gods have minor roles in the Mahabharatam, the original source of the Gita. Gods are just a reflection of humanity, and should not be given so much importance. The Upanishads give a framework very much in compliance with modern science and logic, as to how humans should continue to explore the world around them and continuously update their knowledge - never to be stationary with one ossified belief without continuous requestioning ( " Charaibeti " ). The Mahabharatam and the Gita, edited out of their obvious later " priestly opportunistic addition " of support of unfair and unauthentic practices like " hereditary and for-life varna " gives the guiding principle for social interaction and the nature of the state - a crucial vision of nationhood embodied in this ideal of Krishna. " Gods " are not the primary messages of these core texts - they are mere additions by interested priests to extract benefits from society without contributing in real terms. " dikgajone " --------------------------- Sir, To my limited mind, there are two types of powers SUR (divine) and AASUR (demoniac). And Ishwara (God) also has to adopt the aasura (demoniac) powers in order to destroy the aasuri (demoniac) aspects in a aasur (demoniac) person. A Sur (Virtuous, Divine person) is always of positive behaviour. This is simplest and easiest way to understand. Ram Ji also killed AASURAs (demoniac men) because He is Ishwara (God), Himself, and does not need extra powers to switch between Sur (Divine) and AAsur (Demoniac) properties to accomplish a task. " apb1942 " ---------------------------- PRIOR POSTING Dear sadaks, First about Human-- Man kills man-Why? Enemity, Greed Etc Etc. Animals kill animals only for food. Hindu God never resort to Violence but terminate extremely Bad people for the betterment of human beings at large. Here the Gods benefit nothing, but they act to save human beings at large. It is depicted in such a manner by some that it looks like violence. Kans is maternal uncle of Sri Krishna. Kans jailed his parents, Devaki and Vasudev. Sri Krishna as child left Mathura, but Kans went on sending asuras (demoniac people) to kill Sri Krishna. Asuras came to Krishna from Mathura, but Krishna never went there to kill. In defense Sri Krishna killed Asuras. The sacred truth behind this killing is giving Mukthi (salvation) to them. When God incarnates and kills, it is divine to die in the hands of Bhagavan. Sri Krishna never killed Jarasand though he waged war several times. Duryodhan was not killed though he tried to rope up Krishna who came as messenger for Pandavas. These people were unfit to die in HIS hands. Several warnings were given to Kans to behave himself and since he failed he was killed. Besides Kans was door keeper at Vaikunth as Jaya/Vijaya. Due to ego there they were cursed by Sanakadhi Munis to be born on earth. Actually Kans after being killed went to Vaikunth. Sri Rama was quietly living in the forest, why should Ravana abduct and carry Mother Sita to Lanka? When Ravana lost war and became alone without arms in his hand, Sri Rama said to Ravana Go today think of your sins and come tomorrow. But Ravana came to wage war again knowing that he will be killed. So also other Gods did. Jesus was born as human acquired Gyana between the age 14 to 30 became saint. Normally saints or Sanyasins are forbidden to any type of killing. They allow other to kill them, as it is their knowledge that body alone is being destroyed, but not the Soul (Athuman). When Jesus rose from death with body of wounds it was astrial body (Non Destructable). His disciple never believed Jesus and tested Jesus' wound on his ribs by sending his pointing finger into the wound. This disciple finger is still not perished and remains an exhibit. Demons with strong powers can be killed by Gods only. Now take Maha Lakshmi who incarnated as Sri Andal in Srivalliputtur, was tought by her God father Sri Pria Alwar the good deeds of Sri Krishna. She fell in love with Krishna and wanted to marry Sri Krishna. She took to 30 days Dhanurmasa Vrath and in presence of Chola king and people she was taken abode of Sri Vishnu who gave Dharshan to all with Sanka, Chakra, four Arms Etc on Garuda. Gods appear (Not Born) looks like being born. Sri Krishna was with 108 occult powers when born. To people it looks as being born. Sri Rama or Sri Krishna opted to be kshatriya / yadava not as Brahmin. Brahmins are forbidden to kill. Sanyasin (ascetics) are tought to give in themselves, when someone strikes them. Like Adi Sankara/Buddha/ Christ. B.Sathyanarayan Some of the Demons / Ill-minded souls are hard to change with preachings alone. They have to be physically removed like weeds, because they go beyond repair and are harmful to mankind. Also these characters and killing by GOD need not be taken in the literal sense. To make common people like us to understand, some of these might have been personified, otherwise it is mostly how to control the inner evils like greed/ ego etc to attain divinity " mvssr75 " ------------------------------- -Shree Hari- Dear Iyer GA, What a blessing you have in a son that wants to debate such things with you and visa versa. A respectful correction.Yahweh(Christian/Judaic God) was involved in wholesale slaughter and genocide. When the hard shell around ones spiritual heart is broken, the taste for violence is lost. I am looking forward to the wise council of the Sadhaks. I think this is a very interesting question. With Respect and Divine Love. Mike Keenor -------------------------------- VIOLENCE is when you apply force UNLAWFULLY, SHOURYA is KARTAVYA (Duty) to restore DHARMA Dear Iyer, Lord krishna himself went to Su(Dhur)yodhana and adviced to give back what belonged to Pandavas. Did they heed? So lord had to KILL them to teach this world that if you try to keep that which does not belong to you, it will be disaster. Lord pardons who ever takes asylum in him, kills who goes against him (Nature). Gandhi policy does not apply to all cases. Can we sit in front of afzal guru fasting like Gandhi and make him repent for his attack on parliament? Please try it and then ask why krishna killed Kamsa. You yourself will take a weapon to restore Dharma if your son is hurt by any anti-social element and when they try to do again and again. Using Shourya is kartavya (duty) and is a part of restoring Dharma (righteousness) and shanti (peace). Violence is not a part of Hindu Gods or any body who protects Mother Land. It is called " shourya " Please note if our people in borders chant Om shanti, then bullets come from other side and may hit your chest. So a protector(God or any king/human being like soldier) has to use force to subdue non-social element to restore the civilizaton, else country will be weak and no place for Dharma. Hindu gods showed this ... to be strong and rise to occasion. Save the Dharma even if you have to kill your own brother. Non-violence should be practised but not at all times. HARI OM TATH SATH shiva Kumar shapur Dear Shri Ayer, I too am an old man, vegetarian and certainly non-violent. But I am a devotee of Durga. It is depicted in various forms including Mahishmardani. Similarly other Hindu Gods too may be shown in benevolent forms like Gyatri, Lord Vishnu or Brahma Even Shiva may be depicted in the dance pose. Dear friend you look inside. You will find a conflict going in all the time. Good ultimately prevails. But it is so because of a fight between the God and the devil. So my suggestion is enjoy the fights and always stand by the righteousness. With best wishes. Shridhar Pant -------------------------------- Shreemanji, There is a small anamoly. You say you are a senior citizen and haven't been able to realise the answer to your question in all these years ????? Is there any difference between Bhartiya (Indian/Hindu) and other Gods ? Read the scriptures with an open mind and NOT blind faith or dislike. It has all got to do with human psychology. You will discover the answer yourself. Pranam Sampuran Singh - GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: 1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify their doubts related to Gitaji shlokas. Therefore, responses which further clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be posted. 2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to substantiate your response. 3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas 4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting sadhaka's time. 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only. 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other organizations. 7. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone number, address etc. 8. Please do not address the response to a particular individual since the message is going to the entire group. 9. Due to the large readership, all responses may not be posted. 10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if content is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the group. 11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use to Sanskrit words only, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit bracketed wherever possible. MODERATOR Ram Ram ------------------------ Post message: Subscribe: - Un: - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 19, 2008 Report Share Posted November 19, 2008 Respected Sirs, I am hindu, a senior citizen, vegetarian and a non-violent loving person. Mahatma Gandhi was the staunchest of non-violent human beings. Though every one, violent and non violent alike would like peace prevail in this world VIOLENCE is happening in this world, knowingly or unknowingly. My question is - Why Hindu Gods are depicted to be showing violence (killing or anihilating evil physically)? eg: Lord Krishna Kills Kamsa, Goddess Durga Kills Pandasura and other Asuras, Lord Shiva Kills Kameswar, Lord Rama Kills Ravana and Bali. Lords of other religions do not appear to follow these paths, no matter the extent of the sufferings one has to undergo. Jesus suffered all along, though he too was believed to have had super natural powers. Kindly enlighten me, in the circumstances, why Hindu Gods loose patience and resort to violent killings to eliminate evil? I have to answer my son who debates with me often. Pranams ! Iyer GA -- NEW POSTING Dear Sadhak, " Whenever and wherever there is a decline in Dharma, O descendant of Bharata, and a predominant rise of adharma--at that time I descend Myself.In order to deliver the pious and to annihilate the miscreants, as well as to reestablish the principles of dharma, I advent Myself millennium after millennium " .GitaCh4:7-8 This means the reason behind formless taking form(incarnations) are- 1. to reestablish Dharma in society when there is acute decline in Dharma and rise of adharma 3.To Protect the people of right conduct, who follow Dharma 4. To punish/remove the evil doers Based on this I am writing few points which can help you explain yr CHILD why our God/Goddess are depicted so strong and powerful- 1.God is Almighty----Hindu deities are depicted powerful and extremely strong. If my God is not strong enough to punish and kill the evil doers then how He/She would be able to protect me from dangers, evil doers ? Bhoot pichas nikat nahin avein , Mahaveer jab naam sunavein... (evil doers and ghost etc cannot come near you if they hear the name of Hanumaan) Why? because we all know that Hanumaan is so strong and powerful.When we chant Hanumaan chalisa our fear releases, but can we chant Gandhiji gandhiji to remove our fear ? 2. God is Just---- When I see my God punishing and killing the evil doers, I know He/She will perform justice to me also if I am following the right conduct, my Dharma. 3.God is all Protective/Supreme power- Even a child can believe that my God is able to protect me because they see them so brave, strong, power full equipped with all weapons... And my mind also feel that nothing is impossible when my God is with me, it gives me courage to follow the right conduct even midst of many wrong doers. 4, God is Loving, Kind and forgiving --All Hindu God/Goddess are strong, powerful and kind. Even the sinners can take refuge in them as they all are kind enough to forgive the worst of the sinner. Once someone surrender, they forgive.(remember forgiveness is ornament of brave, strong and powerful. A weak, coward forgiving strong powerful enemy make no sense as the weak has no power to punish the wrong doer.) 5.Establish Dharma---All Hindu deities kill the devils( someone who follow the path of cruelty and adharma) only, so all deities actually removing adharma and establishing dharma only. 6.Characteristic of incarnated God/Goddess is Ideal - when we read the characteristic of any Hindu God/Goddess we come to know that we can learn how to lead our life by following their instructions.If we can pick up just one preaching our entire attitude change, our entire life change. If parents want to prohibit their son from involving into violence, or any kind of adharma, then they must teach them Gita because Gita encourage the kids to follow their own Dharma, Gita teaches them why this anger arise, and why people are so different. Gita teaches them how to concentrate on MY DUTY instead of running behind the whimsical mind. Comparision is certainly not a right approach to teach Dharma to the kids. We need positive approach when we talk to kids specially teenagers. With lots of Love, A sadhika Sadhna Karigar ------------------------------ We all are fighting with so many things from morning till evening daily, right from birth to end of life, it is a struggle and part of life. Hindu Gods are visualised to fight the same way during their course of action, nothing is new , try to understand the same. We are all aspirants of truth, struggling throughout our life for attaining smaller to bigger truth and purifying our actions, if it is not so we shall remain glorifying our outer not the inner self. God Bless and illumine our hearts with love and nobility. Hari Motwani ------------------------------- Hare Krishna, All glories to Srila Prabhupada & Vaishnavas. Pranams to you and all readers in this forum. The question presented here by Shri Iyer G. A. " Why Hindu Gods are depicted to be showing violence (killing or annihilating evil physically)? It's a very good and a logical question from the mundane perspective. In order to understand the answer I would like to present an explanation based on Bhakti Vedantic philosophy. Arjuna also propagated the philosophy of non-violence on the battle field of Kurukshetra. We find a very interesting, convincing and logical dialogue from the mundane perspective in the first chapter of the Bhagvat Gita. (Verses 29 to 46). In the above context I would like to draw attention verses 36, 37, 38 quoted below: papam eva´srayed asman hatvaitan atatayinaḠtasman narha vayam hantum dhartaraá¹sá¹ran sa-bandhavan sva-janam hi katham hatva sukhinaḠsyama madhava yady apy ete na pa´syanti lobhopahata-cetasaáh¸ kula-ká¹saya-krá¹tam doá¹sam mitra-drohe ca patakam katham na jñeyam asmabhiḠpapad asman nivartitum kula-ká¹£aya-ká¹›tam doá¹£am prapa´syadbhir janardana Sin will overcome us if we slay such aggressors. Therefore it is not proper for us to kill the sons of Dhá¹›taraá¹£á¹ra and our friends. What should we gain, O Kṛṣṇa, husband of the goddess of fortune, and how could we be happy by killing our own kinsmen? O Janardana, although these men, overtaken by greed, see no fault in killing one's family or quarreling with friends, why should we, with knowledge of the sin, engage in these acts? After Arjuna presents such logical statements for not fighting and resigns, he surrenders to Krishna for His guidance, and thus Krishna spoke the Bhagavat Gita starting with straightforward talk: a´socyan anva´socas tvam prajña-vadam´s ca bhaá¹£ase gatasun agatasum´s ca nanu´socanti paṇá¸itaḥ The Blessed Lord said: While speaking learned words, you are mourning for what is not worthy of grief. Those who are wise lament neither for the living nor the dead. Basically He was indicating that Arjuna you are talking like a learned man or a wise man but you are not; because your logic is based on the `bodily' or material concept of Life. The essence of Bhagvat Gita is that you and others that you see are not this material body, but are spirit souls and as far is the soul is concerned it is eternal. The individual soul obtains a material body according to its past karma and in order to get out of the mire of or catch 22 cycle of karma when one must transcend the modes of material nature. This can only be done if one completely surrenders to God/Krishna. Surrendering to Him (God) means following the will of God, His instructions. We can do that by hearing `as it is' from realized Sadhu, Guru & Shastra /Scripture. (The word He spoke and the words spoken about Him). Sometimes even after repeated negotiations with the wrong doers if the path of peace fails then war is eminent. The war in Kurukshetra was a last resort. After more than fair negotiations……..Duryodhana said " I will not give the Pandavas even little space as that would fit on a pin head " . The Supreme Lord Himself negotiated…now is war or violence induced by such a war unfair? It was the desire and the will of God that His devotees the Pandavas get back what rightfully belonged to them; and when ever the will if God is opposed that is `adharma'. Here God specifically indicated His desire. Of course on has to be very careful and not become a radical, fanatical and endanger the society o man kind or creation by either whimsically thinking or interrupting the will of God by self proclamation. That is demoniac. That is why it is imperative to follow the `word' of God `as it is' without interpretations that suits one's sense gratification. And this possible by hearing from realized souls in, a bonafide spiritual master or Guru in disciplic succession/parmapara. A true devotee of the Lord never propagates violence when it comes to insults or injustice upon the self. Lord Jesus Christ tolerated all that was inflicted on him but for the good of others was not afraid to be what appears to be act of violence in the Temple of Jerusalem, Herod's Temple, at which the courtyard is described as being filled with livestock and the tables of the money changers, who changed the standard Greek and Roman money for Jewish and Tyrian money, which were the only coinage that could be used in Temple ceremonies. According to the Gospels, Jesus took offense to this (extorting profit from the exchange of monies), and so, creating a whip from some cords, drives out the livestock, scatters the coins of the money changers, and turns over their tables, and those of the people selling doves. So what to talk about God Himself, who takes great offense when His devotees or innocent are tortured by the injustice of the demoniac. This material world is described by the Vedic scriptures as `kuntha jagat'. Kuntha means anxiety, the part of His creation where there is `NO ANXIETY' is known as Vaikunth. The spiritual world, where there is no anxiety. No anxiety caused by birth, death old age or disease. Krishna says that this world is `dukhalayam ashahvatam' meaning this material world is temporary and full of miseries. One of the categories of miseries is the Adhibhautika klesh miseries that inflicted by others (violence). We cannot find or expect Utopia in this material world. There always exists atheistic class of `demoniac beings' that will inflict pain on even the religious, pious, faithful devotees of the Lord. In order to check that, God either makes someone an instrument (example Arjuna) or He Himself descends in various forms, incarnations Avtaras to Mitigate /eradicate/ annihilate the miscreants according to time, place and circumstances. Bhagvat Gita Chapter 4:7-8 yada yada hi dharmasya glanir bhavati bharata abhyutthanam adharmasya tadatmanam sá¹›jamy ahamparitraṇaya sadhunam vina´saya ca duá¹£ká¹›tam dharma- samsthapanarthaya sambhavami yuge yuge Whenever and wherever there is a decline in religious practice, O descendant of Bharata, and a predominant rise of irreligion—at that time I descend Myself. In order to deliver the pious and to annihilate the miscreants, as well as to reestablish the principles of religion, I advent Myself millennium after millennium. Now there are many categories of the incarnations of God. The Brahma Samhita says `Advaitam Achutam, anandi rupam' meaning there is none second to the Lord (Advaitam), He is infallible- never influenced by the illusory energy or Maya (Achutam), and He has unlimited forms /incarnations (anadi rupam). When the Lord creates He has incarnates as `Guna avatars', when he descends Himself for annihilating the demoniac, for pleasure of devotees and leaves mankind His Deity form, sends his Messengers, and Holy scriptures it is His `Kripa Lila' or Merciful pastimes. So depending on time, place and circumstances during this endless cycle of material creation He descends in different forms to enact transcendental pastimes whether it is the killing of Kamsa, Ravana, Hairanyakashipu or propagating non-violence in His incarnation of Lord Buddha or as a devotee of the Lord opening the reservoir of Love for God as Chaitanya Mahaprabhu. Whether the Lord embraces someone, kicks someone or even kills someone it is all on TRANSCENDENTAL PLATFORM. For example all demons killed by the Lord (regardless of which demon he killed in which incarnation), and those killed in His presence in battle of Kurukshetra attained a spiritual destination. So there is benefit for those killed by the Lord. One great Vaishnava Acharya Srila Bhakti Vinode Thakore in poem compiled by him writes " asura shakala pailo charana vinode thalilo boshi……Gopinath mama nivedana shuno " meaning: O Lord Gopinath [please here my fervent prayer, so many demons have wound up getting your mercy by the touch of Your lotus feet (example: Krishna kicked Kamsa again and again before killing him, Krishna danced on the hood of Kaliya Naag until Kaliya spat blood) but Vinode (Thakur Bhakti Vinode) is still is tired and waiting for your mercy. The Supreme Lord is a Transcendental Autocrat. Whatever He does it is for the supreme benefit of all and it gives Him Pleasure too weather stealing (stealing butter from gopis for the pleasure of gopis) or even when He brakes His promise. (He promised he would never participate in the battle of Kurukshetra....but He broke His promise by charging towards Bhisma with a chariot wheel when Bhishma almost killed Arjuna. Krishna says in the Bhagavat Gita " Pratijanati kaunteya, na me bhakta pranashyat' ` O Son of Kunti (Arjuna) please declare that My devotee will never perish'. He asks His devotee to declare, He could have very well said: " I declare that My devotee will never perish " , but instead He asks Arjuna to do so ……..why is that? The Acharyas comment that sometimes the Lord is known to break His promises for the sake of His devotees but He will never break a promise that His devotee has made! Such Love is the pinnacle of the loving exchange and reciprocation of the Lord & His devotee. This is something that we should never forget. No society can exist with Law and order. We have the Police department, jails courts etc that punish or even induce killing (capital punishment) on criminals who are a danger to the society. So it should not be surprising that Lord who descends in His various incarnations kills various demons. His instruments are powerful enough to do His will, but when He personally descends he also gives immense pleasure to His devotees and that is the main reason for enacting many different lilas or pastimes. I must express my gratitude to Srila Prabhupada and all devotees for imparting these transcendental teachings to whom I am eternally indebted towards. I hope I was able to answer your question. One excellent reference book that I strongly recommend is : `BHAGAVAT GITA AS IT IS, by A.C. Bhativedanta Swami Prabhupada. It will make your life sublime. Haribol Satchitananda Dasa -- PRIOR POSTING PS: This is a burning question that has been misused from centuries against Indian Faiths. I would like to address this in detail. I request the moderators to allow me to do so. Thanks. Naga. Violence in Epics Any scripture can be studied from social perspective or from spiritual perspective. Once, a scripture is examined from social perspective, all characters ought to be human be it Rama or Krishna or Abraham or Zeus or Achilles. After all, these characters are visualized by humans, may be enlightened, yet humans. Therefore, the actions performed by these characters need to be obsorbed with an acute circumstantial social awareness without jumping into conclusions out of context. Hanuman tells Bhima when requested to help Pandavas in the anticipated Mahabharata war, " I belong to an erstwhile value system. Hence, I am not entitled to wage your war. " The author, Veda Vyasa, emphasises on many occasions the social boundaries within which every social norm has to be examined carefully. I suggest you to read the epics of Mahabharata and Ramayana again carefully before answering your son. It is a better idea to encourage him to study the same himself before criticizing them. Ravana has abducted Sita, wife of Rama. A common man would boil in rage to kill such a person instantly. Rama had the capability to destroy Ravan. Yet, Rama sends his representation to Ravana till the last moment to avert the war and to avoid killing of anyone. On the other hand, Ravana never regrets his actions. He interprets Rama's good will as weakness and believes that the weak ones are born only to suffer from the wrath of the strong ones like himself. The goodness is often misunderstood with weakness. He shows no interest in saving any lives as such! Also, when Rama sends Hanuman to find Sita, he requests Hanuman to understand first what Sita wants. Sita was already about to suicide notwithstanding the violence attempted against her. Thanks to Vedavati's curse and Mandodari's wisdom, Ravana could not dare violating her physically. Yet, she was literally tortured psychologically. When Hanuman reveals his identity, the first thing she reminds Rama is to liberate her from the situation at the earliest. She even puts a timeline for the action lest she would kill herself. A husband is violated and wants his wife back. He is wise enough to ensure that his wife wants the same. He is human enough to request and warn the violator. The violator is insensitive to honor others in the first place and refuses to do so even after a series of reminders and warnings even from his own brothers and wife. Is it not obvious that such characters should be removed from the society for the sake of social welfare? Same case in Mahabharata. The peace-loving Yudhishthira wages everything - kingdom, his brothers, his wife and himself - to evade a war. They accept banishment. Krishna himself pleads the Kauravas for peace. He even offers on his own that he will convince the Pandavas even if they are given just five villages - not an empire, not a kingdom, not even a province ... just five villages. Again, the violators refuse to acknowledge and honor the requests made. On contrary, they mock the peace mongers as impotents. Did they leave any choice but to be removed? Kamsa, Krishna's uncle, had murdered many new borns driven by his baseless paranoia. He had imprisoned his own sister and her husband for life. He had thrown his own father into dungeons for power. He unleashed wrath on poor villagers just for a fear of a child killing him. He drew his death nearer and nearer thanks to his own paranoia. If people were happy, why would they send Akrura to plead Krishna and Balarama to kill their own king? If they were not convinced, why would Krishna and Balarama consider killing their own uncle? If you read Bhagavata carefully, the brothers never strike on Kamsa on their own. Attempts were made to murder them at every step. Did Kamsa leave any room for his own survival? Did he leave any other way other than killing him to rescue the people? In all cases, who killed whom. Even from social perspective, Ravana, Kamsa, Duryodhana etc. had already killed themselves with their deeds by violating every human around who just wanted them dead. They just needed a power to depend upon. Rama and Krishna happened to be those. Respects. Naga Narayana. To be contd. … -- Dear Sadaks, If a doctor does operation and patient dies for some reason. Do you blame the doctor? If a judge setences a criminal to be hanged until death, do you tell judge commited murder? Here the doctor intention to save the patient. judge intention was to punish, not to murder. But if a man kills another man for gains/vengence is called murder. But if Hindu Gods kills very bad person after giving long rope, it is called in Hinduism " Vadham " , may mean termination. Like one`s leg gets affected by diabetes, the leg is cut off. Here Asuras (Very bad people) are affected by total mind corruption. There are warned now and then which can also be known from puranas. Only ultimately God terminates. In Christianity- there is a thing known as Judgement Day. Please ask Christians what it is. When Moses went 40 days on hills for prayer, leaving hundreds of peoples at the foothills, the people lost faith in GOD and they started drinking wine, made forms of eagle/animals as Gods, behaving like animals, any woman with any man, Moses came down with 10 Commandments. But all laughed at him. Result Gods in heaven says Bible, killed almost all. Even now due imbalance of Dharma, earthquake/Tsunami (Pralaya) takes place killing people. Jai Sri Krishna baiya sathyanarayan -- Narain Narain My question is to Vineet Sarvottam. Sir, if that scorpion comes into your house, then what will you do ? Pls check up with Papa and come back. It is important question. I love this father/son relationship/asking questions and wise councelling.. Lallubhai Chirimar - dear mr iyer First we have to study the Vedas, then Upanishads, Brahmanas, Aranyakas, Siksha, Nirukta, Chhandas, then the 18 Mahapuranas, 18 upa-puranas, then the Ithihaasaas Mahabharat and Ramayana etc. This is the series of study prescribed. From this it is clear that Vedas are the first to study, i.e. Lower primary, then the next upper primary, then high school, then plus 2, then degree and finally the ithihaasaas which are to be studied for PG. Our problem is what is to be studied in PG, we study in KG or lower primary. The root of man is his head and his leg portion is the head actually. The growth starts from the head portion once it is formed as a unicellular organ in the uterus. (Oordhwamoolamadhassakha...... bhagawat gita). This means now we are standing upward down position (on the reverse.) Therefore all our actions are on the reverse. So to hear something from other Dharmas like Christian or Islam or any other and think in that direction, is not of Sanathana Dharma. It has no equivalence in the world, rather, all other dharmas are born out of it only. The modern education system is teaching only of the Drishyas, means, object based (Dravyaadhishtita). Shabda, Sparsa, Roopa, Rasa, Gandha, these are only taught and studied. There is no teaching of the tought. Means, before I start studying a matter or an object which is outside me, I should first study about myself. Dear Mr Iyer, you may kindly start studying yourself. Do not think of Devataas. Devataas and men are having equally good and bad qualities. The one who is able to do MANANA he is man. No that those having two legs fitted on the stomac are men.... No never. Start asking yourself, who 'am I ? From where I came., Where I have to go/reach... What for I am sent here.. Who has sent me ? With whose ability my eyes are able to see, with whose inspiration I am being led to do the innumerable doings (karmaas), with whose wish my ears are able to hear... Just because I have two eyes, I cannot see. Just because I have two ears, I cannot hear. Just because I have tongue I cannot talk... Then what is that power which orders my these senses (INDRIYAAS) to do karma. That chaitanya swaroopa is within you covered by all the (bad) smskaaraas bought forward throug out the innumerable birth and death. This cover one has to remove or (dis- cover) then the original will shine. One reaches a stage of no.... nothing. regards vijayan kiliyil -- Dear Iyer ji namaskar Without assessing the powers of the opponent the survival is not possible. It is upto an individual which path to lead. For the benifit of mankind if voilence is utilised is a sin too but there are methods of prayashchitas too. For the welfare of mankind you have to access whom you are dealing with a most powerful demon or an ordinary person. If you have to deal with a terrorist you need to use arms and even kill him if he is a dire problem. You should explain your son simply the role of a police man/ army gaurding the nations use voilence to combat terror. In sprtuality there are various types of dealing with sinners for some the killing of demons like Ravana, Kansa and other mighty powerful ones God has to create a counter programme that could eliminate the EVIL intensions of Adharmi individuls and on the other hand where you have to deal with the common man you have to guide vast population to follow a faith and bring people on a common platform to attain harmony and peace. No incarnation can be compared with each other. Jesus the son of God fufiled a mission and blessed the world with his guidance and a noble thought but people got stuck in Churchanity instead. Mulsims received Holy Koran but today fanaticism knew no limits through its powerful followers. Hindus have a vast tresure of knowledge but most of them are busy in caste based practices and the entire world is on one side struglling for everything to achieve things through easy methods. There is no easy way to attain goals. One who has created a room for voilence gets voilence and one who deservs to be dealt with a non voilent ways get the same way and let this to be decided by the almighty and let humans do not decide on this as we lack that supreme vision that decides everything for every being present in this world. It is so upto you to follow a path that God deals accordingly for you. So simple if a terrorist bothers a nation authorities counter his actions through like agencies. If there is a person approaching or bothering authorities is dealt through dialogue and pecefully things are settled. To get convinced for the actions of incarnations you have to study the related scriptures to realise the truth. One can not be greater than other just by making a foolish assesment that one has used voilence and another has used non voilent tactic to attain something. You need to know the missions of each incarnation and at the end you will find that all had a different missions and people with different powers to deal with. If we are dealing with a rustler we must know that one is to be defeated with same trade. IF one us a poor man one has to deal with him in the simple fashion. A poor man can not be dealt with voilence. Judge the situations of both the eras you will and can satisfy your curious son. Even study voilence and non voilence in real terms. When you eat something you fulfil your need to support/ maintain your physical state. Will you stop eating just because one day you came to know that eating too in a way leads one to act via voilent means. Do not you cut plants, kill animals and while eating eat several unseen things? All the incarnations acted as per their respective TIME and requirements. One who had to use weapons used them perfectly and one who had to use compassion and love used it the brilliant way. It is upto the people for whom these greats are born as to how they deal with them. That is why incarnations acted differently but all established superiority of Dharma the truth over Evil on this globe. With regards Love and knowledge! Dalip Langoo -- 1. Hindu gods are not to be understood in the same way as the judaic / greek gods. they are manifestations of the self and relate to our own psychological processes. this has been understood recently in the west as archetypes of the self and forms part of CG jungs analytical psychology. 2. Though Hindu gods always seem to be involved in wars (conflict is a better term) hindus are generally characterised as being non-violent and gandhi is one example of this. most international violence and acts of terrorism these days are related to the middleeast the home of judaism, christianity and islam, not to hinduism, buddhism, jainism, sikhism, taoism or any other pagan tradition please read 'the god delusion' by richard dawkins Ravi Bakhsi -------------------------------- Nevertheless, in an age when artistic depiction is misused for anti- Hindu propaganda as mentioned, Hindus have to reflect and ask whether such artistic depiction is doing harm to how their faith/culture is being perceived by others and by their youth, and whether we should advise against such depictions. It is defensive and slavish mentality that Hindus are falling prey to the mechanisations of others. When one believe in one god, can there be different ones ? How Hindus or somebody else want to depict their Gods is their choice. Hindus dont have to feel sorry about making pictures of their Gods. It is none one else's concern. Sampuran sINGH - PRIOR POSTING Dear Shri Iyer: Namaskaram with respects. Hindu concept of Dharma, according to my feeble understanding, makes a distinction between violence required by one's duties, and violence done mindlessly or to seek pleasure. When a king punishes a criminal, it is done to prevent further crime, and is therefore not himsa. The distinction between himsa and ahimsa is very nicely explained in Mahabharat at several places. To my mind, the present confusion is due to advocacy of extreme ahimsa by Gandhi ji. This led to a mixing of personal dharma of an ordinary citizen with that of raj dharma of the state and the king. Gandhi ji's interpretation of ahimsa is valid only in satyuga. How would you deal with Somalian pirates by using ahimsa? Gandhiji's ahimsa itself succeeded perhaps only once – against the British. It failed against others. Further, while Hindu gods are shown armed to the teeth, Hindus themselves have remained relatively peace oriented. In other systems, the Gods have been depicted as peaceful, but the followers have been very violent. Therefore, my view is that the symbolic arming of Hindu gods is aspirational (as is the peaceful depiction in other systems), as a means to encourage Hindus to be a little more war-like. Secondly, the violence by the Hindu deities has almost always been in response to the needs of the people, and not out of spite or anger. Hope this is useful, Sanjay Agarawal - Here in the UK, we have been considering this issue for some time. During the last 2 to 3 years, we have had Christian priests telling us that Hindu faith and its gods are violent and preach violence – `look at the pictures of your gods!', they say. The letter from Shree G A Iyer thus rang de ja vu-bells for me. 1. The paintings and other depictions of Hindu divinities are the work of artists who have enjoyed, and continue to enjoy, the freedom of artistic expression their faith community has traditionally granted them. Nowhere in the scriptures is it decreed that we have to paint pictures of gods/goddesses nor that we have to show gods/goddesses carrying weapons. But to-date no one has questioned why we undertake such depictions. 2. Islam forbids artistic expressions of anything divine, or of Muhammed. Christians actively depict Christ, but only in a peaceful/suffering pose. 3. If we bear in mind that what we are being told today through revised editions and mis-translations of scriptures of faiths is somewhat different from the original scriptures, the artistic stereotyping may not necessarily correspond to the actual `life- history' of the concerned figures and their teachings. 4. Christians believe that Christ was the son of God, but he was unable to stop injustice and cruelty and gave his life in the process. That is their belief. Hindus believe in incarnation of the divine who uses supernatural powers as a last resort to destroy evil. This is not to be equated with the concept of `violence' in the ordinary human terms. Once the order is restored and the righteous victims of evil are liberated from the tyranny of the evil-doer, the avatar no longer resorts to the so-called `violence' and returns to the normal benevolent peaceful form. Our scriptures describe God as the source of bliss and auspiciousness, the avatar coming to protect devotees, to restore righteousness, and order to nature and cosmos when such is threatened. 5. Faiths should be judged i) on the basis not of propaganda but on what is actually written in their scriptures, and ii) on the actions of the faith communities. Contrast Hindus [and their record of non- aggression against other countries and against other faiths – even of giving sanctuary to those faiths fleeing persecution elsewhere – Jews, Parsees, Assyrian Christians], with the followers of other faiths who have acted to decimate other faith-based civilisations and committed genocides in India, Americas, Australia, etc. etc., almost succeeding in wiping out various civilisations and races. Nevertheless, in an age when artistic depiction is misused for anti- Hindu propaganda as mentioned, Hindus have to reflect and ask whether such artistic depiction is doing harm to how their faith/culture is being perceived by others and by their youth, and whether we should advise against such depictions. Unfortunately this is easier said than done. How do you persuade those who make money out of this industry to cease such activities? Time to reflect. Girdhari - Namaste Sadhakas.. Sumangal Suprabhat... As per my belief in our hindu religion, there is only one God " Parmatma " . All the names you noted like Shri Rama, Krishna, Durga etc. are its " Ansha " who took birth as Human being to taught us about " Dharma " & to spread " Peace & Love " . Param Parmatma created this beautiful Earth/Shrushti for us. He is controlling us. If someone is not following his 'Rules of life' and troubling others. He / she must get punished for others well-being & to keep Peace in the world. Example : If you have a box of fruits & one of them get spoiled what you will do..?? You will remove that spoiled fruit so that other fruits will remain good otherwise that one fruit will spoil others. Thanks Satish Pawaskar Keep Smiling Always ;-) India ------------------------------ God is suddha, buddha, muktha swaroopa. For killing somebody, one has to get angry. (krodha) God does not get krodha. (If it becomes angry, none of us will be thre.) To kill somebody, you have to get angry. Only, we become angry and therefore we cannot be God. Krodha is the resultant of Kaama (Aasakthi). When you slap your son, does he start praising you...? does he get Aananda. Rama never killed Ravana. Ravana is described as Moha (Aasakthi). Rama killed only the Aasakthi which was there in Ravana. The praisings of Ravana is well clearly written. Once some body goes thru it, one can understand that Rama never killed Ranava but the God gave him the Moksha. regards vijayan kiliyil ----------------------------- Hindu Gods demonstrate ;- Nip the evil in the bud. They never lose patience.the annhilation of the evil is done after many many chances for abondoning the violence against innocent are provided to the asuras (demons), who usually ignore these. Regards Shiban Raina ------------------------------ Dear Shri Iyer, Please refer to your mail of November 10/11. You say that you are a senior citizen and also a staunch Hindu, but in my eyers, you seem to be utterly confused about the basic Hindu faith. Unfortunately, most of the modern educated Hindus suffer from this confusion according to me. Resultantly, the upcoming Hindu generation is alsmost uprooted from their Hindu base. Your question as to why Hindu Gods are depicted to be showing violence (killing or annihilating evil physically), betrays ignorance of the basic Hindu tenet that Parameshwara or Paramatma (God) is one. Only Devatas and Devis, who have a positive effect on human beings are many. Parents and Gurus too are counted among Devatas, (Matridevo bhava, Pitridevo bhava). Paramatma's creative faculty personified as Brahma has no armament or weapon. Vishnu representing His executive faculty and Rudra (Shiva) representing the assimilation or dissolution faculty alone bear a weapon in one hand whereas the other hand bears a protective gesture. It only symbolises punishment to the evil doer and protection to the righteous ones. The message is concretized in the Geeta, " Paritranayaya sadhunam vinashaya cha dushkritam/ Dharma sansthapanarthaya sambhavami yuge yuge, " (From time to time, I appear on earth in order to protect the righteous ones, destroy the evil doers and to establish the rule of Dharma, i.e., righteousness or rule of law). In the Mahabharatha, (Shanti-parva, chap. 57), Bhishma Pitamah tells Yudhishthir, " The greatest sin of a king is his failure to protect his subjects. He should protect the dharma of all his Varnas. (It means that every citizen should be able to pursue his or her chosen vocation/occupation, education, trade, business, farming, lending services, doing government or private job, without let or hindrance). The king should act like Yamaraj in administering justice and like Kuber in collection of revenue. He should make provision for those who cannot support themselves and should take good care of those who help the destitute " Such lessons of Hindu scriptures have been ignored . Resultantly, they have brought the country to a breaking point. In Raj dharma, the question of violence and non-violence is irrelevant. Yours sincerely, Ram Gopal ------------------------------- -Shree Hari- There has been a lot of mention of various gods killing, in conflict, the Divine Feminine has been mentioned also on this thread. Now, I do not know these ancient Vedic literatures, but have some insights to other bronze age traditions. Emmanuel Vilakovski considered that the various ancient Greek stories of waring gods, was actually the remembrance of ancient astronomic events. I have seen on this thread, Sadhaks inferring that these ancient sagas of warring gods, was the primordial forces at work. Other Sadhaks have in my opinion, correctly pointed out that the Abrahamic traditions are the most warlike, I have an explanation as to why. Here is a quote from the book, 'A shewing of God's Love', (written by an Christian medieval female mystic ). " The mother may fold her child tenderly to her breast , but our tender Mother Jesus, He may homely lead into His blessed Breast....... " (Notice the Feminine/Masculine aspects here ). When I first read this, I thought of, (hard to believe I know), Shakti , Quan Yin , Mother Mary, and Asherah, known also as Elat , the feminine aspect of El, ( The supreme GOD). You see, She has been factored out of the world, (perhaps She is retuning, I pray She is). I ask you. Would She desire her children to kill each other.? The point is Asherah was forced out of the traditions of Israel and Judah, leaving in the minds of those people, Yahweh, without his consort, thus the Divine Feminine, the Nurturer ,was no longer in their hearts, the growth of the Patriarch religion had started. So the god of their tradition became a god of war and and male dominance. The great Swami Vivekananda pointed out the horror of the millions that were killed in the name of that (unbalanced) god . Bede Griffiths regarded a religion without balance as demonic. Sri Krishna pointed out to Arjuna that, he (Arjuna) had no memory of his past lives. Now consider this. If a swami, a doctor, maybe a Sister of Mercy, or any sweet soul., suddenly remembered with great clarity , being a warrior, raising the battle- ax, or sword in brutal warfare , what would they think. A soul can weary of war, did not Lord Krishna point out it was only the flesh and blood that was being destroyed in warfare. Many have said that the external world is a reflection of mankind's inner self. With Respect and Divine Love. Mike Keenor ---------------------------- Respected Sir, It is not the question of God or human being, the central theme is that " a woman is most often linked and the cause of fights / wars " as well as, down fall ! It may appear to be crude, but still there seems to be a connection, am I not correct? Barin Chatterjee ----------------------------- In Short, Hindus believe in the principle so nonviolence that is practical and can be practiced in day to day life. Christians believe in a Utopian nonviolence theory that neither they nor anyone else can practice. To elaborate, I suppose your son is not old enough to introspect and understand. First of all there are no Hindu Gods and Christian god. There is just ONE power that is omnipresent in all the things/beings. And it (I will not call it he or she) is not really non-violence per our definition, else no one ever died, no one got killed and there was no war ever etc. I understand that your son is really referring to the incarnations / perceptions of Gods that Hindus and Christians respectively believe in. First thing that you need to know is per Christians Jesus is not a God. He is the " Son of God " or the Messiah. Per Christians God never incarnated but Hindus do believe that God incarnates and so there is no point in comparing their perception of God to Hindu perception. Mahatma Gandhi's nonviolence was predominantly adopted from Christianity to fight them back on their own turf and with their own weapon. Persecution of nonviolent people by British brought back the memories of persecution of Jesus and his disciples and received extensive coverage and support from rest of the Christian world, forcing British out of India. In India Buddha preached and followed non violence, however, his disciples when they went to China to teach Buddhism they first learned martial arts to protect themselves during the journey. This is how martial art first reached China which they later expanded upon. Nonviolence shouldn't be confused with cowardice. Nonviolence means not hurting others for pleasure and self-fulfillment. However, fighting (and if needed killing) for protecting self and others can not be categorized as Violence. Nonviolence also means giving peace a chance before waging a war. That is why both Ram and Krishna sent a last peace message to Ravan and Duryodhan so the war could be avoided. Anand Awasthi PRIOR POSTING If you have some problem in any part of your body, first you try to cure it, but when it becomes incurable it has to be cut off to prevent rest of the body. World is viraat swaroop (Universal Form) of God. All creatures are parts of it. Things become clear when you think from God's point of view. Thanks Raja Gurdasani - Dear Sadhakas, Namaste! Shashikala Bahenji, right you are: " who can kill who " , as all is immortal/imperishable! I guess Sadhakas are answering in the best possible ways they know, because it is to be explained by a father to a son who is asking such questions as he should. Perhaps it is a giant leap to grasp such concept as immortality, which may not be appreciated at this stage in son's life! My short answer is: " when one inquires into deeper meanings of God, Life, Death, Incarnations, (non)Violence, being Hindu, Hindu Gods etc, one may come upon understanding that many questions like this get answered in the satisfactory way " . Now I would teach my son these things, but I didn't know myself when they were growing up! In my experience the best answer to one's question is the disappearance of question itself in the light of understanding question, as J Krishnamurti used to say " Please see that the answer is in the question " . Namaskar..... Pratap Bhatt ----------------------------- Hari Om 'Violence' is a relative term. Basically in the divine play of God, humans enjoy certain liberties of conduct. There are laws governing the entire creation. Humans have immense powers but identification with the mind and body makes them 'desire' for worldly temporary pleasures. Here they come in conflict with another law- desires can never be fulfilled, you can only renounce them. In order to fulfill the desires, one indulges into violence. 'Gods' in order to keep the creation going 'mete out' the results of deeds in an equally violent manner- as you sow, so shall you reap.. In fact, when they do so, they are liberating the souls from darkness. Hence, it is all 'play' , there is no violence, there is only 'mercy', there is only 'love' emanating from the top. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B -------------------------------- Namaste, Sanatana Dharma is not a simplistic/moralistic philosophy where things/ acts are categorised as eternally good or bad. It is the context that determines whether an act is good or bad. consequently when adharma prevails - the destruction/ killing of the 'asuras' is necessary for greater good. To give you an analogy - a knife might be considered as an instrument for violence but it is also necessary for cutting vegetables etc. The oft quoted verse 'ahimsa paramo dharmah' from the Gita is only half of the entire line which concludes with 'dharma himsa tathaiva cha' - himsa is equally valid when used for dharma. Gods in our tradition perpetrated violence against those forces that prevented Truth / dharma from prevailing and therefore cannot be judged in the same tone as those who commit senseless violence. Hope this helps. Shubhamastu Anuradha Choudry -------------------------------- Many Rishis such as 'Balmiki' were masters of weaponry and yet they opted not to fight because they are Brahmins, not authorized to slay but authorized to teach. The TriDev Brahma, Vishnu and Maheswar are in-charge of this universe and they have to do whatever is good for mankind. Manoj Padhi ------------------------------- fellow sadhakaas, namasteji..There is no escape from birth and death cycles..all our prayers wish peace and happiness..three times...But..if you can't defend yourself with vachaa, love..etc..you have to kill by Mantra or sahastra..even God had to exterminate terror by bad elements. Hari Om Vishnu Dada (Vishnu Patel) -- PRIOR POSTING There is only one God. No Hindu God or Muslim God or Christian God. They are all one and the same. Besides all human beings, irrespective of religion have souls whose ultimate destiny is to merge with God or the Parmatma. So to say this God is violent and the other is not is an exercise in futility. Hari Shanker Deo - Dear Mr. Iyer, Gods created all creatures on earth. A few of them tried to supercede GOD and also tried to destabilise the world. GOD had to ensure that these creatures do not wreak havoc. hence the destruction of evil. Anil Jain - Jai Hanuman Where is the question of some one " killing " another, when everyone is " immortal/imperishable " as a law ? Can any sadhak enlighten me, Jee ? So that I may address this question !! Kindly help, Jee ! Jee !! 'Violence' by 'Gods' ! Raam, Raam, Raam !! Mike Bhaiyya ! Pratap Bhaiyya! Sathyanarainji !! Adrien !! Any one Jee ! But quickly Jee !! Will you come to my rescue with reference to 'self' and 'Gitaji' - Jee! Jee ! ! Your sister is too stunned and anxious by the question, Jee ! Who can kill whom Jee ! What do you say Adrien ? Namaste Jee Jee Jee Shashikala ----------------------------- ----------------------------- 1. Hindu gods are to be understood in the same way as the judaic / greek gods. they are manifestations of the self and relate to our own psychological processes. this has been understtood recently in the west as archetypes of the self and forms part of CG jungs analytical psychology. 2. though Hindu gods always seem to be involved in wars (conflict is a better term) hindus are generally characterised as being non- violent and gandhi is one example of this. Majority of the international violence and acts of terrorism these days are related to the middleeast the home of judaism, christianity and islam, not to hinduism, buddhism, jainism, sikhism, taoism or any other pagan tradition. please read 'the god delusion' by richard dawkins for great understanding. Ravi Bakhsi Dear Mr Iyer, Violence is something that you cannot avoid. Tell me when you eat vegetarian food do you not think that those vegetables and rice and dal and other such food also grew which means they had a life. Which means that the vegetables and rice were alive and were killed for your ultimate consumption. That is violence to a lesser degree. What makes you think that violence does not occur everyday? Even when you breathe you kill millions of bacteria that enter your nose and mouth. Let me put it to you that without a section of the population taking the initiative of killing bad elements in any society, others do not have the luxury of being non-violent. hope this helps Prashanth Thirukkonda - Dear spiritual brothers and sisters, Vedas do not advise just non violence but lay emphasis on Non Violence of the strong. Prakrti- the divine subtle Nature which is our Supreme Mother according to Vedas is extremely strong and powerful but largely peaceful and non violent. She provides a Book of Nature which even blind people and even animals/fishes/birds can read and wants us to follow Rts- Her cosmic laws of necessity for our social, moral and physical order. Like any benevolent and loving mother she remains peaceful and affectioante most of the time but gets extremly violent when we flout her Cosmic Laws of Nature and start spreading social, moral and physical evils. Hindu gods (Ishwaras) are Not God- as there is only One universal God for the entire mankind wise men describe Him with different names. All the Hindu gods/goddesses (Ishwaras/devas/devis) are extremely powerful and strong but like Prakrti merciful, benevolent and always keen to ensure that cosmic Laws of nature (Rta) are observed by all her children who are noble people. Thus Hindu Ishwaras/devas/devis are the greatest followers of Non violence of the Strong but get violent if evil is spread in society, environment is polluted and hydra headed CORRUPTION with Nine Heads over takes virtue, ethics, divine thoughts and social nobilty. Incidentally Mahatma Gandhi never talked of Non Violence in a general way but always talked of Non Violence of the Strong. He wanted people of India to become morally, spiritually and physically strong and then non violent. Non violence of the Weak is self destruction. He has greatly emphasised this point in his Biography " My Experiment With Truth " . None of our gods/godesses become violent for the sake of violence but give a very long rope to evil people to change and behave conforming to Vedic Rta but those non divine people (Avarnas/Vritras) who encourage all actions against Laws of Nature and create social, moral and physics pollution strict action is taken by Hindu Ishwras/devas/devis. with kind regards, Prem Sabhlok -- PRIOR POSTING Shree Hari Ram Ram Shri Iyer Bhaiyya, Tell your son simply that to eradicate evil, one has to engage in violence. If your son understands about a scorpion and his sting, then ask him that if a scorpion comes into the house and is running around to sting someone, what would he do? Sometimes, a question posed against a question, can be a better clarifier, than an answer. So be it ! Vineet Sarvottam -------------------------------- Dear Sadhak, According to the Yajnavalkya Samhita, ahimsa or non-violence is the awareness and practice of non-violence in thought, speech and action. Do we practice Non-violence at that lavel ??? Do we not kill mosquitoes, cockroches and so many other so called " harmful being " according to us? What do you say about - Hang till death, cutting hands of a thief and so many other such so called justice orders? All our Puranas have symbolic meaning, they want us to look deep inside us. The war between good and evil is going on inside us only. Do we not need to " kill " our bad thoughts ? Do we call killing of our bad thoughts/demonic qualities as the act of violence ? Who gives power to kill those bad qualities within ? Ya Devi Sarvabhuteshu Shakti rupen sansthita Namstasye, namstasye, Namstasye namo Nama " I bow to the Divine Mother Who resides within me as Power/Strength " Thus MaaDurga-Goddess of Motherly Love, Mother of sur (Demigods/our good qualities) and Asura(Devils/our bad qualities) alike, cannot be blamed as performing violence. She is washing away the evils of Her sons by purifying them through Her divine weapons, and ultimately merging them all in Her own Divine Love. Similarly Lord Shiva, who drank vemon for the welfare of the entire universe, whose another name is Bhole Baba(Innocent God who pleases easily and bless us without considering our good/bad karmas) can not even think of violence. Read more about Him and you will know how merciful is He. We cannot know about our Gods until we know our own self. The Supreme is seated right into our own Heart. Look within, meditate deeply and know Thy Self. Surrender to Gitaji and go beyond the duality of this world. Krishna says- " I am the goal, the sustainer, the master, the witness, the abode, the refuge and the most dear friend. I am the creation and the annihilation, the basis of everything, the resting place and the eternal seed. " Gitaji Ch 9:18 He is All then who is killing whom ? We are not the body, and suffering is all illusion arising from the Nature. If we want to see peace, love and bliss in the world, we have to " BE " peace, love and bliss. There is no other way. There is no Hindu GOD or Christian God. There is only ONE, and that ONE GOD cannot be understood by debate as He is beyond duality, beyond mind, intellect. God can only be experienced. If your son wants to understand Sanatan Dharma, present him with a Gitaji. Read Gitaji over and over again, contemplate on each stanza. Come back and answer your own question. With lots of Love, A sadhika Sadhna Karigar - Dear Sir, We all need to better understand the Hindu philosophy and its message. First of all we need to understand the meaning of non- violence. Does it mean only physical act of killing or harming? No. any act leading to harm or hurt others through thought, word or deed is Non-violence. A physical act of killing in a war with a pure intension of good of the mankind is again not classified as violence. Unfortunately, this thought also is misunderstood, misinterpreted and misused now a days. When a mother slaps a child it is not called violence. because the act originates out of Love. The stories which you are referring to are from an era when evil could be identified as a person. who in many cases knew what is evil or wrong but could not help act in that influence.. that time to remove the evil was to destroy them. Even if you look at the story of Gods killing... you would find that it was the last resort. Even those 'evil' people were given all the possible chances and opportunities to change. Only when they refused to comply and the suffering of good become unbearable the physical act of annihilation was performed, to reinstate the faith, to restore righteousness. It is high time we realize that spirituality is not for weak. it requires Will of Shankra, courage of Vivekanand. Today good and evil have become seen in every person. hence to destroy the evil path of annihilation of the person is not resorted. In todays time the solution is - Transformation of heart. for this the divine beings use various methods. even allowing themselves to suffer. Lets not misinterpret their divine pure act of grace. We are such people who would not hesistate to crucify Jesus and do nothing to stop and fight against but will be first to feel pity after the act is done. we dont want to self introspect why he was crucified. we are just contented to know that he was crucified for our sins. As if the godly people have the obligation to be crucified while we continue on our unjust ways. if you love Jesus then share his pain by being good and just. be open and understanding, be loving towards all. God has given each one enough strength to fight our own battles. be willing to suffer the punishments for the mistake committed, dont pass it on to god or godly people and expect them to suffer for you. I request you to not use such words " hindu gods lose patience " . this thought itself is full of ignorance. First of all know - There is only one GOD and he is omnipresent, omniscience, and omni-potent. What ever God does is for good of all. Even the physical act of so called violence is for the good. it is for us to understand how, when and why he does what he does. Even to qualify to question god we must first become a humble student. then may be the divine wisdom would fall on us to understand and enjoy the bliss of his grace. sai ram Abhimanyu Kaul Sadaks With birth comes death. Mahatma Gandhi fought with weapons he had i.e. none, but you cannot run a country on that philosophy as India found out with China. We must all defend Dharma. This is the best. A persons duty is to live according to Dharma and to defend it. From Ahimsa paramo dharmaha, Dharma himsa tathaiva cha. This Is the full proper statement. Each person has to follow the work according to his caste and station in life. Kshatriyas job is to defend and fight for dharma. This is amply show in Gita, Ramayan, Mahabharat, in FACT THE ONLY HOLY BOOK WRITTEN ON A BATTLE FIELD IS THE GITA. Non violence is the best Dharma, but to attain it HIMSA (violence) is required to defend this is the message. Jayesh A Patel PRIOR POSTING dear brother loves and best wishes. The creator Himself has said in Geeta that the very purpose of His incarnation in human form is to destroy the wicked, to save the righteous. In fact this seems to be one of the necessary divine rule. Moreover non-violence does not mean not to resist evil. thanks. ck kaul ------------------------------- II SHRI HARI II Respected Shri Iyer Ji, One must understand God or Lord, a Prophet and Saint in their respective capacity. Our Gods and Hindu Dharma do not follow the principle of Violence (Hinsa) and in fact, Violence (Hinsa) has no place in any of Hindu scriptures and character of our Gods and Saints. Our scriptures say " Ahinsa Param Dharmo " (Non-violence is the ultimate (basis) of religion). Life (Leela) of our Gods and Saints show no violence whatsoever. To understand this you must go through our scriptures carefully under the guidance of eminent Sdhakas and participate in the Satsang of our great Saints (Sad Gurus). In Sanatan Dharma, there are mainly five Gods (Panch Devas) and only these Panch Devas are worshipped. Although, there are thirty three crore Devi Devtas and they are all the parts of only Panch Devas. In other religions we do not find Gods but the great Saints who are said to be Sons of Gods and sent by God to spread peace and the teachings of Gods. Our religion spreads over infinite time, you can count the origination and time for the others. First of all it is important to understand Ravna, Bali, Kans and numerous other Asur (Rakshasas). All these Asur were God's devotees (Bhaktas) and following the path of Vair (enmity) Bhakti (devotion for enmity). There are two type of devotees (Bhaktas) first Premi Bhaktas (dveotees who love God) and second the Vairi Bhaktas (devotees who keep enmity with God). Purpose of both devotees is same i.e. attainment of God. Ravna and his brother Kumbh Karan both were Jay and Vijay the Door Men (Dwar Pal) of Lord Vishnu's Vaikuntha lok. One day Sanakadik Rishis were going to meet God Vishnu in the Vaikunthalok and Jay and Vijay the Door Men (Dwar Pal) of Lord's Vaikunthalok stopped them at the door saying that they can not enter Vaikuntha without God Vishnu's permission, which was quite surprising as Rishis and Saints do not require permission to enter any of Divya Lokas. Therefore, Sanakadik Rishis got angry over the attitude of Jay and Vijay the Door Men (Dwar Pal) of Lord Vaikuntha and passed on curse (Shraap) to Jay and Vijay to take birth three times in Asuras (Rakshasas). Frightened by the curse (Shraap), Jay and Vijay fell on the lotus feet of Sanakadik Rishis for mercy (Daya) and Lord Vishnu also requested Sanakadik Rishis to show some compassion and Sanakadik Rishis relaxed their curse (Shraap) and told that though Jay and Vijay will take birth in Asur Kul (Rakshasas, Demons) but Lord Vishnu will take reincarnation (Avtaar) for their welfare (Udhar). And Sanakadik Rishis said this will happen likewise (Tthasthu). Accordingly, Jay and Vijay the Door Men (Dwar Pal) of Lord Vishnu's Vekunthalok, took birth in Asur Kul in Treta Yug and Lord Ram took incarnation (Avtaar) for their well being (Udhar). Ravna and his brother Kumbh Karan along with numerous Asurs (demoniac beings) were killed and each of them went to Satlok. In Dwaapar they took birth as Dantvakra and Shishupal, the associates of Kans, and Lord Krishna took incarnation (Avtaar) for their well being (Udhar). Dantvakra and Shishupal along with so many Asurs were killed by Lord Krishna and each of these Asurs (demoniac ones) went to Lord Krishna's dham (abode). When the Jeev gets Lord's Divya Lok on his death, he is called Badbhagi (great in destiny) as he gets Lord's Divya Lok which the Sadhu, saints, Rishi and sadhakas long for. For each of the Lord's incarnation (Avtaar), there are various reasons (Hetu) and to fulfill each of the reason (Hetu) Lord takes incarnation (Avtaar) for the welfare of Lord's devotees (Bhaktas). Ram Charit Manas states " RAM JANAM KE HETU ANEKA, PARAM VICHITRA EK TE EKA " . You can understand these only by participating in the Satsang and by carefully going through and understanding our holy scriptures like Shreemad Bhagwat, Ram Charit Manas, Shiv Mha Puran, Skand Puran, Vedas, Upnishaidas, Shruty and Samrity granthas and even sidh Chalisa like hanuman Chalisa, Durga Chalisa, Shive Chalisa and so on. Perhaps you do not know about the sacrifice of our great Rishis and Saints and that's why you are quoting the example of Jesus. Our Dadhichi Rishi sacrificed his body to give his bones (Asthiyan) to Indra Dev the king of Devtaas to make Vajra from the Rishi's bones (Asthiyan) for killing Vritasur Asur to save the Srishti from demolition. Sanatan Dharma possesses infinite knowledge of the Infinite Lord. No other religion possesses such a large variety of Holy Scriptures. There are four Vedas, 301 Upnishaidas, 18 Puranas, Vedant and enormous Saint Charitar, Saint Vaani, Guru Vaani etc. It is simply enormous! That's why it is stated in Ram Charit Manas " HARI ANANT HARI KATHA ANANTA , KAHI SUNI BAHU VIDHI SAB SANTA " . The Gatha (Katha) of Ananat Bhagwan, the One whose birth and death is not known to any body, the One who is unborn and do not die and the One who is beyond birth and death is INFINITE (Aseem, Athaha)! How can men like us who are definite, limited in life and strength can know his Katha. Sanatan Dharma is a non-violent religion. Do not be misconceived or misguided. Go to Satsang, read our holy scriptures and then only you will be able to express your true quest (Jigyas) for knowledge. May Bhagwan Shree Hari Har satisfy your doubts! Shubham Astu, RAJINDER MOHAN VOHRA -------------------------- Thank you for forwarding this letter. I believe Krishna never resorted to any violence - he tried to protect non-violence. Krishna never advised Arjuna to kill people or resort to violence. Can you show anywhere in GITA Krishna advising a war? Gods are to protect non-violence and to maintain dharma. They are not Saints. Lovingly Dr.Uday Pai -------------------------- Dear Sir: Perhaps Hindu Gods resort to " violence " so that Hindu people stay peaceful. Only Hinduism can create a Gandhi, as you pointed out, the staunches non-violent person. While other religion's God may not appear to be violent, the people of other religion appear to be more violent than Hindus, as can be observed by events today and by events of History. Viz. Followers of a " peaceful " Jesus initiated the Crusades. So maybe there is an inverse relationship between the behavior of Gods and their followers ?? (Based on my understanding, the old testament of the Christians is full of violence. " Slay the idolators, destroy the idols " , " leave no man, woman, child, animals of the enemy alive " to paraphrase some of the writings.) Also, the violence of the Hindu Gods is not mindless violence. There are some people who only listen to violence. For example, the terrorists who are bombing innocent people in India can only be handled thru like minded treatment. Perhaps, publicly blowing up a terrorist in the same place he planted bombs to kill innocent people is the only language he will listen to. So in that sense I wish Hindus would get more aggressive to seek justice. And Dharma requires this. Dilip Bhagat --------------------------- Hare Ram Hare Krishna Dear Sir, Pranam If your question has arisen out of a thirst to understand the God, then I whole heartedly welcome it and try to put my views as below. However if it has arisen with an intention of malice, then it is time to quit all false books/thoughts leading you to such confusions or debates and concentrate only on the divine Gita - the ultimate guide to reach the one and only God. According to the holy Gita, God is the most superior, the ultimate power, the invincible, and is always victorious. The common sense also confirms this, otherwise anyone can defeat God and he/she can become God. Just as living things are created by God, it is His duty to digest them within Himself and give life to new ones to maintain the balance of this universe. This digestion into Himself has happened in many ways - in the form of moksha to the Rushis who had spent a peaceful life worshipping Him throughout their life, in the form of death to those who approached a violent form of life and in several ways. This had been confirmed by the existence of Lord Krishna, who is the ONE and ONLY GOD in this world and Bhagavad Gita is the proof for it. The portraying of victory of good over evil have been depicted as VIOLENT for common man to understand but it is all part of his MAYA ! And remember it was the choice Jaya and Vijaya made to die in the hands of the God Himself three times as evil doers than to be his devotees and wait for the MOKSHA after 6 rebirths. And why do you focus only at these depictions and see it as a physical violence while there are plenty of instances in puranas where God had been so merciful and loving - mokhas to rushis, life to the dead, etc. I hope my explanation will answer you that God doesn't lose patience and resort to violence. Regarding your reference to Jesus, He was a messiah of peace who suffered and died for the people. A God is there to protect the good from evil. If God cannot protect himself in the hands of evil, how can he protect the good from the evil? From my perspectivie it is illogical to think that someone suffered pain in the past for the sins which will be committed by future generations. It should be the other way round. And the existence of Lord Krishna is the best example of the triumph of God over evil or mere mortals. He killed the evil and he was always victorious. He was so merciful to end his incarnation in the hands of his beloved devotee as per his promise in his previous incarnation as Lord Rama. I hope and pray that you and your son will read the divine Gita with a positive mind-set, as all of us should do, and attain Lord Krishna with our good thoughts and deeds. Hare Ram Hare Krishna SRIKANTH MOHAN KETHU --------------------------- Dear Sadak, The statement of Sri Iyer GA that Bagavan Shiva killed Kameswar. Dear Sir, Vayu Bagavan is wind, Varna Bagavan is Rain and so on. The demi gods are having No specific form. They are Pancha Boothas. Kameswar is not GOD or demi God. Kameswar is symbol of desire. Kama + Easwaran-- means Kama desire-- Easwaran ruler. Kameswaran is ruler of desires. Bagavan Shiva killed Kameswar by HIS 3rd eye. We can also kill desires by our 3rd eye Gyana located between 2 eye brows were thilak is put upon. Again-- Kama never leaves anyone by its nature. But it did not work out in case of Bagavan Shiva. Also purana says that Kameswar was given back the power. This Kameswar was sent by Indra to distrub Bagavan Vishnu while doing Yogic Tapas in Badrinath. Kameswar failed in his attempt and Sri Vishnu gave Menaka a very beautiful looking lady as present to Indra through Kameswar. These puranas have hidden concepts. B.Sathyanarayan --------------------------- Evil can not be fought with platitudes. For example if we stand with folded hands before terrorists then they will gain the upper hand. That is what our ancient books teach us. Our Gods fought evil even in Satyug and we should fight evil in Kaliyug too. That is the lesson for us. Even in Christian countries, they have armies and give death sentences to murderers. Remember Iraq and Afghanistan? Hari Shanker Deo ----------------------------- I don't think there should be so much concern about " Hindu " " Gods " . The word Hindu itself is a misnomer, and should not be used to characterize the Bharatyia philosphical traditions. Most linguists will agree that it started with the " Satem/hatem " divide in the IE languages, and the " hatem " group residing outside the geopolitical context of the subcontinent who corrupted Sindhu into Hindu. Sindhu was a part of the " Mahabharatm " of Krishna and not the whole. The Arabs do mention " Hind-va-Sind " in the 7-8th century chronicles, thereby distinguishing and extending the concept from mere " Sindhu " . But no " Hindu " inscriptions use the term until 15th century. There are also many " Gods " . Vishnu descends as avatar, but Shiva does not. The Gods do not always show fairness in their treatment and this is the reason sometimes they have to justify their actions by introducing " past life karma " , something obviously unverifiable by the majority of the commoners. The Ramayana story as popularly rendered omits certain crucial details from the Balmiki version relevant for this topic, like that of why Ravana had to be invited by Rama to perform the rites of initiation ( " Bodhana " ) of Chandi/Durga - the same rites carried out by the avatar of Vishnu to gain ultimate victory over Ravana. Ravana was the best " Brahmin " available (what happened to " caste " - the same " caste " which has even found its way into the Gita as something whose breakdown by the " women " and others leads to eventual destruction of " civilization " and " dharma " - the Asura clan Ravana, who fights and abducts women like the Kshatryias being a Brahmin!) for even Brahma had omitted Gayatri recitation for one " Sandhya " and was unfit as a " yagnik " (lets not go into the actual reason as to why he could not - as it might throw some lights on possible motivations even in this fountainhead of " Brahmanya " revelation). The " Gods " and the " Asuras " both derived from the same " father " , and to start with they were not even " immortal " . They had to coopt the asura " siblings " to extract " amrita " and then needed Vishnu to cheat them of their legitimate share. The Gods get tempted by the beauty of mortal women, like Ahalya, and seduce or rape them. It becomes convenient then later to invent " bad past Karma " to justify such unfair treatment of humans. In this the common Gods do resemble (and were perhaps in reality just deification of actual humans or modeled on the " aristocracy " of the time) the common historical behaviour of elite ruling class. The real strength of Bharatyia philosophy should be sought in a proper analysis and absorption of the Upanishads, the Gita, and the Mahabharatam - the last two being essentially statements on political society and individual's relation with that of the state and the social group. These have little to do with the " Gods " - Gods have minor roles in the Mahabharatam, the original source of the Gita. Gods are just a reflection of humanity, and should not be given so much importance. The Upanishads give a framework very much in compliance with modern science and logic, as to how humans should continue to explore the world around them and continuously update their knowledge - never to be stationary with one ossified belief without continuous requestioning ( " Charaibeti " ). The Mahabharatam and the Gita, edited out of their obvious later " priestly opportunistic addition " of support of unfair and unauthentic practices like " hereditary and for-life varna " gives the guiding principle for social interaction and the nature of the state - a crucial vision of nationhood embodied in this ideal of Krishna. " Gods " are not the primary messages of these core texts - they are mere additions by interested priests to extract benefits from society without contributing in real terms. " dikgajone " --------------------------- Sir, To my limited mind, there are two types of powers SUR (divine) and AASUR (demoniac). And Ishwara (God) also has to adopt the aasura (demoniac) powers in order to destroy the aasuri (demoniac) aspects in a aasur (demoniac) person. A Sur (Virtuous, Divine person) is always of positive behaviour. This is simplest and easiest way to understand. Ram Ji also killed AASURAs (demoniac men) because He is Ishwara (God), Himself, and does not need extra powers to switch between Sur (Divine) and AAsur (Demoniac) properties to accomplish a task. " apb1942 " ---------------------------- PRIOR POSTING Dear sadaks, First about Human-- Man kills man-Why? Enemity, Greed Etc Etc. Animals kill animals only for food. Hindu God never resort to Violence but terminate extremely Bad people for the betterment of human beings at large. Here the Gods benefit nothing, but they act to save human beings at large. It is depicted in such a manner by some that it looks like violence. Kans is maternal uncle of Sri Krishna. Kans jailed his parents, Devaki and Vasudev. Sri Krishna as child left Mathura, but Kans went on sending asuras (demoniac people) to kill Sri Krishna. Asuras came to Krishna from Mathura, but Krishna never went there to kill. In defense Sri Krishna killed Asuras. The sacred truth behind this killing is giving Mukthi (salvation) to them. When God incarnates and kills, it is divine to die in the hands of Bhagavan. Sri Krishna never killed Jarasand though he waged war several times. Duryodhan was not killed though he tried to rope up Krishna who came as messenger for Pandavas. These people were unfit to die in HIS hands. Several warnings were given to Kans to behave himself and since he failed he was killed. Besides Kans was door keeper at Vaikunth as Jaya/Vijaya. Due to ego there they were cursed by Sanakadhi Munis to be born on earth. Actually Kans after being killed went to Vaikunth. Sri Rama was quietly living in the forest, why should Ravana abduct and carry Mother Sita to Lanka? When Ravana lost war and became alone without arms in his hand, Sri Rama said to Ravana Go today think of your sins and come tomorrow. But Ravana came to wage war again knowing that he will be killed. So also other Gods did. Jesus was born as human acquired Gyana between the age 14 to 30 became saint. Normally saints or Sanyasins are forbidden to any type of killing. They allow other to kill them, as it is their knowledge that body alone is being destroyed, but not the Soul (Athuman). When Jesus rose from death with body of wounds it was astrial body (Non Destructable). His disciple never believed Jesus and tested Jesus' wound on his ribs by sending his pointing finger into the wound. This disciple finger is still not perished and remains an exhibit. Demons with strong powers can be killed by Gods only. Now take Maha Lakshmi who incarnated as Sri Andal in Srivalliputtur, was tought by her God father Sri Pria Alwar the good deeds of Sri Krishna. She fell in love with Krishna and wanted to marry Sri Krishna. She took to 30 days Dhanurmasa Vrath and in presence of Chola king and people she was taken abode of Sri Vishnu who gave Dharshan to all with Sanka, Chakra, four Arms Etc on Garuda. Gods appear (Not Born) looks like being born. Sri Krishna was with 108 occult powers when born. To people it looks as being born. Sri Rama or Sri Krishna opted to be kshatriya / yadava not as Brahmin. Brahmins are forbidden to kill. Sanyasin (ascetics) are tought to give in themselves, when someone strikes them. Like Adi Sankara/Buddha/ Christ. B.Sathyanarayan Some of the Demons / Ill-minded souls are hard to change with preachings alone. They have to be physically removed like weeds, because they go beyond repair and are harmful to mankind. Also these characters and killing by GOD need not be taken in the literal sense. To make common people like us to understand, some of these might have been personified, otherwise it is mostly how to control the inner evils like greed/ ego etc to attain divinity " mvssr75 " ------------------------------- -Shree Hari- Dear Iyer GA, What a blessing you have in a son that wants to debate such things with you and visa versa. A respectful correction.Yahweh(Christian/Judaic God) was involved in wholesale slaughter and genocide. When the hard shell around ones spiritual heart is broken, the taste for violence is lost. I am looking forward to the wise council of the Sadhaks. I think this is a very interesting question. With Respect and Divine Love. Mike Keenor -------------------------------- VIOLENCE is when you apply force UNLAWFULLY, SHOURYA is KARTAVYA (Duty) to restore DHARMA Dear Iyer, Lord krishna himself went to Su(Dhur)yodhana and adviced to give back what belonged to Pandavas. Did they heed? So lord had to KILL them to teach this world that if you try to keep that which does not belong to you, it will be disaster. Lord pardons who ever takes asylum in him, kills who goes against him (Nature). Gandhi policy does not apply to all cases. Can we sit in front of afzal guru fasting like Gandhi and make him repent for his attack on parliament? Please try it and then ask why krishna killed Kamsa. You yourself will take a weapon to restore Dharma if your son is hurt by any anti-social element and when they try to do again and again. Using Shourya is kartavya (duty) and is a part of restoring Dharma (righteousness) and shanti (peace). Violence is not a part of Hindu Gods or any body who protects Mother Land. It is called " shourya " Please note if our people in borders chant Om shanti, then bullets come from other side and may hit your chest. So a protector(God or any king/human being like soldier) has to use force to subdue non-social element to restore the civilizaton, else country will be weak and no place for Dharma. Hindu gods showed this ... to be strong and rise to occasion. Save the Dharma even if you have to kill your own brother. Non-violence should be practised but not at all times. HARI OM TATH SATH shiva Kumar shapur Dear Shri Ayer, I too am an old man, vegetarian and certainly non-violent. But I am a devotee of Durga. It is depicted in various forms including Mahishmardani. Similarly other Hindu Gods too may be shown in benevolent forms like Gyatri, Lord Vishnu or Brahma Even Shiva may be depicted in the dance pose. Dear friend you look inside. You will find a conflict going in all the time. Good ultimately prevails. But it is so because of a fight between the God and the devil. So my suggestion is enjoy the fights and always stand by the righteousness. With best wishes. Shridhar Pant -------------------------------- Shreemanji, There is a small anamoly. You say you are a senior citizen and haven't been able to realise the answer to your question in all these years ????? Is there any difference between Bhartiya (Indian/Hindu) and other Gods ? Read the scriptures with an open mind and NOT blind faith or dislike. It has all got to do with human psychology. You will discover the answer yourself. Pranam Sampuran Singh - GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: 1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify their doubts related to Gitaji shlokas. Therefore, responses which further clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be posted. 2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to substantiate your response. 3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas 4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting sadhaka's time. 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only. 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other organizations. 7. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone number, address etc. 8. Please do not address the response to a particular individual since the message is going to the entire group. 9. Due to the large readership, all responses may not be posted. 10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if content is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the group. 11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use to Sanskrit words only, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit bracketed wherever possible. MODERATOR Ram Ram ------------------------ Post message: Subscribe: - Un: - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 20, 2008 Report Share Posted November 20, 2008 Respected Sirs, I am hindu, a senior citizen, vegetarian and a non-violent loving person. Mahatma Gandhi was the staunchest of non-violent human beings. Though every one, violent and non violent alike would like peace prevail in this world VIOLENCE is happening in this world, knowingly or unknowingly. My question is - Why Hindu Gods are depicted to be showing violence (killing or anihilating evil physically)? eg: Lord Krishna Kills Kamsa, Goddess Durga Kills Pandasura and other Asuras, Lord Shiva Kills Kameswar, Lord Rama Kills Ravana and Bali. Lords of other religions do not appear to follow these paths, no matter the extent of the sufferings one has to undergo. Jesus suffered all along, though he too was believed to have had super natural powers. Kindly enlighten me, in the circumstances, why Hindu Gods loose patience and resort to violent killings to eliminate evil? I have to answer my son who debates with me often. Pranams ! Iyer GA -- NEW POSTING Namaskar to all, We have talked of Dharma to defend and punish after peaceful efforts. Shatriya dharma also seems to be pointing to anger, fear and weakness. Good over bad and GOD over Rakshas, fight is going on for ever. We could not control our selfish desire. Example of Duryodhana as the Eldest and Ravan fulfilling his Rakshah dharma shows their being true to their Dharma. Killing of Bali, Ravan, Duryodhana and other ashura predominantly show misbehaiviour towards Women the Mother. In this world of patriachial society Mother is related to Birth and Death. Out great Mother Earth, Motherland and our own Mother are object of selfless service and we can't repay back. We have always used and enjoyed the benevolence but could not return back, which is also a form of Violence. Due to this violence we are destroying ourselves as Earth will by the global warming. Mahabharat & Ramayan are examples of increasing negativeness which ended in perishing of their Family. The Yadav and Sita here and middle west showed the relatives of Mohammed eliminted. The apostles of Jesus spread the word of Love. But christianity again has continued the act of punishing without waiting for the Day of judgement. 'Violence in any form results in more violence which eats ourself', this is to be told to our children. Humans as Intellectual leaders should be settled by debate and not follow the jungle rule to prove their maturity and superiority among the living creatures. -- Regards Swapan PURKAYASTHA -------------------------- Soceity – Individual – Non-Violence Any soceity always faces two problems – (1) the invaders looking for opportunites like hawks and vultures to feed upon a weak society; and (2) the schemers within a society to promote their causes beyond their rights geopardising the social integrity. That is the fact. The social health and prosperity depends on the society's integrity and strength. So is for a person – the external invaders in terms of objective attractions and the internal schemers in terms of desires and fears perpetually feed on a gullible individual. They join hands to geopardise internal strength and fracture personal integrity of the individual in the game of survival. One should not mislead a soceity (and an individual) in the name of " non-violence " or any other high-sounding phrases that may weaken it to become vulnerable to its own doom. It is the primary responsibility of every individual – personally as well as socially. In my opinion, one of the root cause for the milleniums of subjugation of Indian population is the superficially preached, wrongly understood and illusively adapted extra-ordinary concepts such as non-violence. One can disguise under " non-violence " and let the whole population including oneself suffer the violence under a tyrant insider or invader – one may call it non-violence or tolerance; but I call it indifference and even cowardice. Or one may gather strength to face and terminate the tyrant to let the whole population and oneself live in peace – one may call it violence or aggression; but I call it self-assertion and progression. Whenever the body is infested it should be disinfected and whenever it is under attack it should be quarantined off the infectors ... so is a house, and a village, as well as a nation. We can treat the epics such as Ramayana and Mahabharata as either personal saga or social saga or both toward establishing and maintaining social/individual balance of presence against the odds around as well as within. The human characters battling for sustanence of social balance in terms of morale, prosperity and stability would become the variance in natural elements that stirr an individual pcyche in terms of experiences and their traces recorded by the psyche in terms of memories, constantly nurturing clones of desires and fears in the individual in infinitude, battling for sustanance of psychological balance in terms of esteem, fulfillment and confidence. True violence is within an individual (or a soceity) rooted in one's treatment to one's own nature. Suffering is the indicator of the violence. One would feel injured only when one's nature is violated knowingly or unknowingly. Developing desires contrary to one's nature is the root cause for all the fears harbored within. Borrowing an alien nature, even though it sounds noble (e.g. non- violence), cannot resolve this problem. It will add new conflicts generated from the ignorance regarding the newly solicited value. It is like taking a well-named medicine for a problem that is never diagnosed in the first place. Imbibing non-violence without appreciating the violence within can be the most violent act one could possibly turn into … violence suppressed within by force ticks like a time bomb … erodes the individual from within … increasing one's suffering exponentially within. Suffering within for whatsoever reason is THE ONLY SIN that is accounted in our scriptures. Symptomatic treatment for superficial suppression of the miseries is not an acceptable remedy as the seeds of miseries are left healthy which would ensure the miseries to eventually resurface stronger. The epics depict the removal of the root causes of the suffering as such. The wars of Ramayana and Mahabharata are the nerve-wracking conflicts an individual is engaged within to establish oneself in the peace within. All the violators – be it intrinsic or extrinsic or both – have to be faced, fought with and eliminated with an absolute resolve to establish in the non-violence within. Once established within, it exuberates on its own – no additional practice is required. One can never " acquire " non-violence by preaching – who-so-ever preaches and who-so-ever listens. It is revealed only in those who take initiative to seek the same within with clarity and resolve. If you want to see The God in the characters of Rama, Krishna, etc. … my friend, you have to change your outlook completely and understand what is meant by violence, non-violence, and the god ... also you will have to re-read our epics in a totally different perspective to see its relevance to your self-cleansing and god- realization process. Let me just throw a stone at you from this perspective ... " Non-Violenece " IS THE ONLY REASON why " The God " had to " kill " the so-called " evil elements " in our stories! ... All the words/phrases under quotes need to be examined at their roots … Please think about it. Respects. Naga Narayana. (to be contd.) -- 3. Violence – Religion – Non-Violence I saw a video clip by a Scandinavian doctoral scholar on the current rage of conversion in India. A school bus with children is made to stop. The children from " Hindu " background are asked to chant names of " Hindu " gods. The driver would not move the bus. Then the children are asked to chant Jesus. The driver moves the bus. The preacher elates to the innocent children how Jesus is great! He would not stop there ... he insists how Hindu gods are useless!! Monotheism is often promoted as the greatest path to God Realization because, it is. But the problem with the preachers is they do not realize that the population is not ready for God Realization when they have no clue what this ONE GOD means. Ignorant acceptance or fearful imposition or greedy marketing of notions of ONE GOD brings in the violence in human mind. Having no clue of what ONE GOD means and unable to drop the idea that what I believe is the greatest, the stubborn mind wages war against anything that questions its identity, its " god " . The very belief of god remains superstition and explodes out as fanatism to prove its non-existent sanity within. Intolerance to anything other than what I believe is the first signs of such fanatism. Then, the preaching mind starts blurting meaningless phrases such as " my god " , " other gods " etc. while actually talking about ONE GOD! Hinduism is not a religion, but a federation of religions with mutual respect – Polytheist for beginners and monotheist for the seekers. Traditionally, The Dharma has three wings – Jaata (personal), Samaaja (social) and Sanaatana (eternal). All " Hindu " religions – be it Aindrism, Aagnism, Praanism, Braamhsim, Vaishnavism, Shaivism, Shaaktism, or any other faith – are based on single agenda: Minimal Violence. Every individual is free to choose " a god " personally. The element of nature that appeals to a person the most is divinized so that a person would not violate his nature as far as possible. Every family will have a family deity that represents the consensus amongst the family members to minimize the mutual violations within the family. Every community would have a community deity representing the communal consensus – again, to minimize the communal violations. Every village would have a deity representing the population's consensus – again to minimize the violations and conflicts within a population. Therefore, every Indian religion is also a consensual federation of beleifs and values. As every individual enjoys the freedom, every other individual is automatically respected – mutual tolerance of beleifs becomes a necessity in such a federation. Thus confrontation and contradiction of beleifs and values are minmized on the very onset of the so called religions in such a system. Having diverse nature is natural amongst the population … so is the polytheism. If an individual has ardent interest in the education, he/she should be free to pursue education worshipping the very process of education. An individual has a chance to attain the ONE GOD only when the personal god (in this case, Saraswati) is appreciated thoroughly. The life has to be appreciated at its depth before one opens mouth on Monotheism. Awareful transcendence of the Jaata and Samaaja Dharmas is a necessity to enter the Sanaatana Dharma – Monotheism. Preaching Monotheism with little or no appreciation of life in depth can only lead to fanatism and violence that we see around the world today. Violence has been adapted against the polytheism in India from ages not understanding its greatness – UNITY IN DIVERSITY through FREEDOM AND TOLERANCE – to propagand the greatness of monotheism(s). The very propoganda becomes a mockery of the monotheism. Please see the paradox in the preaching of monotheism – ONE GOD is the greatest of all. Plurality is already believed before promoting Singularity. The very preaching is violence – violation of the preacher's belief as well as the listners' beliefs! Anything followed with blind belief becomes an identity to an ego that it cannot just let go!! Removal of all violations within is the fundamental purpose of a religion. It is just a stepping stone toward God Realization. It can never be a medium for God Realization in itself. A religion can serve its purpose only when it acknowledges the variance in the levels of appreciation in an individual … only when it understands the diversity in people's understanding of life … only when it attempts to eliminate violations within and across individuals to promote tolerance, harmony and non-violence. Removal of hurdles to such harmony is essential as ignorance always remains the driving force of any soceity in spite of all efforts one could possibly put forward! No preaching could change it. Buddha could not … Mahaaveer could not … Jesus could not … Mohammed could not … Gandhi could not! Working with the inevitable – the ignorance – is the concept of polytheism, The Federation of Values and Beliefs. That is the only way to reduce the violations and hence the violence. The wars of Ramayana and Mahabharata are the wars against all the threats to social and individual harmony, the violators of natural/social/individual balance, and the agressors promoting intolerence and conflicts. These wars have to be kept alive to maintain natural/social/individual balance as such as the threats, violators and aggressors will never stop being around!!! Respects. Naga Narayana. To be contd. … 4. Violence, Non-Violence and God What is violation? Any event that seem to break the boundaries of one's beliefs against one's desire. What is violence? Any violation that injures an individual physically and/or mentally. Violation requires two parties - violator and violatee. A violater has to see an alien entity and its boundary to break the same. A violatee should see an alien entity as well with an exclusive boundary of its own to perceive that the alien is breaking in. The God cannot have any boundary – if one attempts to imagine " a god " with boundaries, the very belief is debatable since (1) the very notion is captive within one's imagination; and (2) there exists an infinitude outside such a captivity! If The God has no boundary how can there be a violater or a violatee? Then, how can there be any violation? What is violence then when no one can tresspass nobody?! All the emotional qualities – positive as well as negative – drop out automatically as an individual starts converging toward The God. If there is not such convergence, the very spiritual process should be treated with suspicion. The very suspicion that Rama or Krishna could be The God on one hand and also to be violent on the other hand is self-contradictory. The relative emotions of a typical human perception of violence and non- violence on an absolute entity is paradoxical. If one perceives the god through projection of any human (or otherwise) perception, it remains a mere notion just like the very perception. Violence and non-violence is in one's perception. As Krishna says in Bhagavad Gita, Na kartritvam na karmaani lokasya srijati prabhuh | Na karamphalasamyogam svabhaavastu pravartate || Whether nature is created or just present, every particle, atom, quark, photon, pulse is just present as is in spite of the apparently perpetual cosmic re-alignement, re-orientation and re- association amongst them. Really speaking, nothing can even modify, let alone violate, anything as such. Therefore, the very notion of violation and hence violence remains oblivious and baseless. Growing out of the perceived violence and transcendence of the notion of non-violence to attain the state of no violence and no non- violence is THE WAR waged in Ramayana and Mahabharata. Acknowledging, appreciating, understanding and realising the life " as is " is the only target of a spiritual seeker. Removal of all the hurdles toward attainment of the same perpetually is all the wars are about. The sacrifice in which the seeker hunts down his possessive, relational and emotional hurdles to drop the same as oblations is all these wars are about. Removal of the core violators within at their roots so that they can never raise again to bring in a preception of violence is all these wars are about. When the characters help the seeker to initiate, sustain and complete the Bramha Yagnya they reveal The God as such. Brahmaarpanam brahmahavih brahmaagnou brahmanaahutam | Brahmaiva tena gantavyam brahmakarma samaadhinam || The violator, the violatee, as well as the violation remain one with The Absolute loosing their distinction as well as presence in the same. The war is to fight all the perceptional hurdles to mitigate the very perceptional insistance to keep the notions of violation, violator and violatee alive. Respects. Naga Narayana - Shree Hari Ram Ram Nagaji, it would be helpful to further clarify, Hinduism and your usage of the word Polytheistic with regards to it, to avoid any misunderstanding/confusion. Gita talk Moderator Thanks for the sincere concern. I understand that. This is the basis of this writing. Many of my " non-Hindu " friends raise this same question with a conviction that Hinduism is Polytheist. Infact, by observing we practice the " religion " gives the same picture frankly. The ultimate God is the same - HAPPINESS. But THAT remains aloof to the intellect that is not ready to attain. There is no point in confusing the intellect when it is not ready. Looking at diversity is its nature. Let it ... let it freely and openly. Then, it is possible that it may one day see the light ... The Absolute nature in the very deity it is worshipping. Once it sees The Absolute there, it can see nothing but The Absolute everywhere. The Absolute is not for everybody, at least to start with. That is the importance of Sagunopaaaana (worship of God with qualities and attributes). Nirgunopaasana (worship of the Absolute/without qualities and attributes) an eventuality. When Sagunopaasana is practiced right, IT WILL TAKE THE UPAASAKA TO NIRGUNA FOR SURE. Polytheism - Saguna Saapeksha Saakaara Daiva - is most natural for any to perceive to start with. If somebody is happy with Nirguna Nirapeksha Niraakaara Brahman ... of course, that is good! Seeking THAT through either " the knowns " or " the unknown " beyond both known and unknown is the primary agenda of either of the Upaasanas. Direct answer to your statement " Hinduism is monotheist " ... I personally agree as my nature is to seek Nirgunopaasana. But, The World also harbors the others ... Dwaitins, Yogins, etc. where there exists a heirarchy even amongst the divinities. I see polytheism everywhere for the simple reason that the perception of every individual is unique and never be the same as anybody else's. Even the very appreciation of the Monotheism will remain diverse in one's mind and speech. Monotheism is a concept to win over our scattered appreciation of life. It looses its very context as soon as a seeker attains The Absolute just like Polytheism drops its context. If you really want me to refer to our Sanaatana Dharma, IT IS THAT which includes Gunas as well as Nirguna as well as everything beyond. We perceive Nirguna as a notion since we perceive Gunas. If we stop perceiving the Gunas as such where can the notion of Nirguna stand?! Thank you very much for the requested clarification. Respects Naga Narayana - PRIOR POSTING Dear Sadhak, " Whenever and wherever there is a decline in Dharma, O descendant of Bharata, and a predominant rise of adharma--at that time I descend Myself.In order to deliver the pious and to annihilate the miscreants, as well as to reestablish the principles of dharma, I advent Myself millennium after millennium " .GitaCh4:7-8 This means the reason behind formless taking form(incarnations) are- 1. to reestablish Dharma in society when there is acute decline in Dharma and rise of adharma 3.To Protect the people of right conduct, who follow Dharma 4. To punish/remove the evil doers Based on this I am writing few points which can help you explain yr CHILD why our God/Goddess are depicted so strong and powerful- 1.God is Almighty----Hindu deities are depicted powerful and extremely strong. If my God is not strong enough to punish and kill the evil doers then how He/She would be able to protect me from dangers, evil doers ? Bhoot pichas nikat nahin avein , Mahaveer jab naam sunavein... (evil doers and ghost etc cannot come near you if they hear the name of Hanumaan) Why? because we all know that Hanumaan is so strong and powerful.When we chant Hanumaan chalisa our fear releases, but can we chant Gandhiji gandhiji to remove our fear ? 2. God is Just---- When I see my God punishing and killing the evil doers, I know He/She will perform justice to me also if I am following the right conduct, my Dharma. 3.God is all Protective/Supreme power- Even a child can believe that my God is able to protect me because they see them so brave, strong, power full equipped with all weapons... And my mind also feel that nothing is impossible when my God is with me, it gives me courage to follow the right conduct even midst of many wrong doers. 4, God is Loving, Kind and forgiving --All Hindu God/Goddess are strong, powerful and kind. Even the sinners can take refuge in them as they all are kind enough to forgive the worst of the sinner. Once someone surrender, they forgive.(remember forgiveness is ornament of brave, strong and powerful. A weak, coward forgiving strong powerful enemy make no sense as the weak has no power to punish the wrong doer.) 5.Establish Dharma---All Hindu deities kill the devils( someone who follow the path of cruelty and adharma) only, so all deities actually removing adharma and establishing dharma only. 6.Characteristic of incarnated God/Goddess is Ideal - when we read the characteristic of any Hindu God/Goddess we come to know that we can learn how to lead our life by following their instructions.If we can pick up just one preaching our entire attitude change, our entire life change. If parents want to prohibit their son from involving into violence, or any kind of adharma, then they must teach them Gita because Gita encourage the kids to follow their own Dharma, Gita teaches them why this anger arise, and why people are so different. Gita teaches them how to concentrate on MY DUTY instead of running behind the whimsical mind. Comparision is certainly not a right approach to teach Dharma to the kids. We need positive approach when we talk to kids specially teenagers. With lots of Love, A sadhika Sadhna Karigar ------------------------------ We all are fighting with so many things from morning till evening daily, right from birth to end of life, it is a struggle and part of life. Hindu Gods are visualised to fight the same way during their course of action, nothing is new , try to understand the same. We are all aspirants of truth, struggling throughout our life for attaining smaller to bigger truth and purifying our actions, if it is not so we shall remain glorifying our outer not the inner self. God Bless and illumine our hearts with love and nobility. Hari Motwani ------------------------------- Hare Krishna, All glories to Srila Prabhupada & Vaishnavas. Pranams to you and all readers in this forum. The question presented here by Shri Iyer G. A. " Why Hindu Gods are depicted to be showing violence (killing or annihilating evil physically)? It's a very good and a logical question from the mundane perspective. In order to understand the answer I would like to present an explanation based on Bhakti Vedantic philosophy. Arjuna also propagated the philosophy of non-violence on the battle field of Kurukshetra. We find a very interesting, convincing and logical dialogue from the mundane perspective in the first chapter of the Bhagvat Gita. (Verses 29 to 46). In the above context I would like to draw attention verses 36, 37, 38 quoted below: papam eva´srayed asman hatvaitan atatayinaḠtasman narha vayam hantum dhartaraá¹sá¹ran sa-bandhavan sva-janam hi katham hatva sukhinaḠsyama madhava yady apy ete na pa´syanti lobhopahata-cetasaáh¸ kula-ká¹saya-krá¹tam doá¹sam mitra-drohe ca patakam katham na jñeyam asmabhiḠpapad asman nivartitum kula-ká¹£aya-ká¹›tam doá¹£am prapa´syadbhir janardana Sin will overcome us if we slay such aggressors. Therefore it is not proper for us to kill the sons of Dhá¹›taraá¹£á¹ra and our friends. What should we gain, O Kṛṣṇa, husband of the goddess of fortune, and how could we be happy by killing our own kinsmen? O Janardana, although these men, overtaken by greed, see no fault in killing one's family or quarreling with friends, why should we, with knowledge of the sin, engage in these acts? After Arjuna presents such logical statements for not fighting and resigns, he surrenders to Krishna for His guidance, and thus Krishna spoke the Bhagavat Gita starting with straightforward talk: a´socyan anva´socas tvam prajña-vadam´s ca bhaá¹£ase gatasun agatasum´s ca nanu´socanti paṇá¸itaḥ The Blessed Lord said: While speaking learned words, you are mourning for what is not worthy of grief. Those who are wise lament neither for the living nor the dead. Basically He was indicating that Arjuna you are talking like a learned man or a wise man but you are not; because your logic is based on the `bodily' or material concept of Life. The essence of Bhagvat Gita is that you and others that you see are not this material body, but are spirit souls and as far is the soul is concerned it is eternal. The individual soul obtains a material body according to its past karma and in order to get out of the mire of or catch 22 cycle of karma when one must transcend the modes of material nature. This can only be done if one completely surrenders to God/Krishna. Surrendering to Him (God) means following the will of God, His instructions. We can do that by hearing `as it is' from realized Sadhu, Guru & Shastra /Scripture. (The word He spoke and the words spoken about Him). Sometimes even after repeated negotiations with the wrong doers if the path of peace fails then war is eminent. The war in Kurukshetra was a last resort. After more than fair negotiations……..Duryodhana said " I will not give the Pandavas even little space as that would fit on a pin head " . The Supreme Lord Himself negotiated…now is war or violence induced by such a war unfair? It was the desire and the will of God that His devotees the Pandavas get back what rightfully belonged to them; and when ever the will if God is opposed that is `adharma'. Here God specifically indicated His desire. Of course on has to be very careful and not become a radical, fanatical and endanger the society o man kind or creation by either whimsically thinking or interrupting the will of God by self proclamation. That is demoniac. That is why it is imperative to follow the `word' of God `as it is' without interpretations that suits one's sense gratification. And this possible by hearing from realized souls in, a bonafide spiritual master or Guru in disciplic succession/parmapara. A true devotee of the Lord never propagates violence when it comes to insults or injustice upon the self. Lord Jesus Christ tolerated all that was inflicted on him but for the good of others was not afraid to be what appears to be act of violence in the Temple of Jerusalem, Herod's Temple, at which the courtyard is described as being filled with livestock and the tables of the money changers, who changed the standard Greek and Roman money for Jewish and Tyrian money, which were the only coinage that could be used in Temple ceremonies. According to the Gospels, Jesus took offense to this (extorting profit from the exchange of monies), and so, creating a whip from some cords, drives out the livestock, scatters the coins of the money changers, and turns over their tables, and those of the people selling doves. So what to talk about God Himself, who takes great offense when His devotees or innocent are tortured by the injustice of the demoniac. This material world is described by the Vedic scriptures as `kuntha jagat'. Kuntha means anxiety, the part of His creation where there is `NO ANXIETY' is known as Vaikunth. The spiritual world, where there is no anxiety. No anxiety caused by birth, death old age or disease. Krishna says that this world is `dukhalayam ashahvatam' meaning this material world is temporary and full of miseries. One of the categories of miseries is the Adhibhautika klesh miseries that inflicted by others (violence). We cannot find or expect Utopia in this material world. There always exists atheistic class of `demoniac beings' that will inflict pain on even the religious, pious, faithful devotees of the Lord. In order to check that, God either makes someone an instrument (example Arjuna) or He Himself descends in various forms, incarnations Avtaras to Mitigate /eradicate/ annihilate the miscreants according to time, place and circumstances. Bhagvat Gita Chapter 4:7-8 yada yada hi dharmasya glanir bhavati bharata abhyutthanam adharmasya tadatmanam sá¹›jamy ahamparitraṇaya sadhunam vina´saya ca duá¹£ká¹›tam dharma- samsthapanarthaya sambhavami yuge yuge Whenever and wherever there is a decline in religious practice, O descendant of Bharata, and a predominant rise of irreligion—at that time I descend Myself. In order to deliver the pious and to annihilate the miscreants, as well as to reestablish the principles of religion, I advent Myself millennium after millennium. Now there are many categories of the incarnations of God. The Brahma Samhita says `Advaitam Achutam, anandi rupam' meaning there is none second to the Lord (Advaitam), He is infallible- never influenced by the illusory energy or Maya (Achutam), and He has unlimited forms /incarnations (anadi rupam). When the Lord creates He has incarnates as `Guna avatars', when he descends Himself for annihilating the demoniac, for pleasure of devotees and leaves mankind His Deity form, sends his Messengers, and Holy scriptures it is His `Kripa Lila' or Merciful pastimes. So depending on time, place and circumstances during this endless cycle of material creation He descends in different forms to enact transcendental pastimes whether it is the killing of Kamsa, Ravana, Hairanyakashipu or propagating non-violence in His incarnation of Lord Buddha or as a devotee of the Lord opening the reservoir of Love for God as Chaitanya Mahaprabhu. Whether the Lord embraces someone, kicks someone or even kills someone it is all on TRANSCENDENTAL PLATFORM. For example all demons killed by the Lord (regardless of which demon he killed in which incarnation), and those killed in His presence in battle of Kurukshetra attained a spiritual destination. So there is benefit for those killed by the Lord. One great Vaishnava Acharya Srila Bhakti Vinode Thakore in poem compiled by him writes " asura shakala pailo charana vinode thalilo boshi……Gopinath mama nivedana shuno " meaning: O Lord Gopinath [please here my fervent prayer, so many demons have wound up getting your mercy by the touch of Your lotus feet (example: Krishna kicked Kamsa again and again before killing him, Krishna danced on the hood of Kaliya Naag until Kaliya spat blood) but Vinode (Thakur Bhakti Vinode) is still is tired and waiting for your mercy. The Supreme Lord is a Transcendental Autocrat. Whatever He does it is for the supreme benefit of all and it gives Him Pleasure too weather stealing (stealing butter from gopis for the pleasure of gopis) or even when He brakes His promise. (He promised he would never participate in the battle of Kurukshetra....but He broke His promise by charging towards Bhisma with a chariot wheel when Bhishma almost killed Arjuna. Krishna says in the Bhagavat Gita " Pratijanati kaunteya, na me bhakta pranashyat' ` O Son of Kunti (Arjuna) please declare that My devotee will never perish'. He asks His devotee to declare, He could have very well said: " I declare that My devotee will never perish " , but instead He asks Arjuna to do so ……..why is that? The Acharyas comment that sometimes the Lord is known to break His promises for the sake of His devotees but He will never break a promise that His devotee has made! Such Love is the pinnacle of the loving exchange and reciprocation of the Lord & His devotee. This is something that we should never forget. No society can exist with Law and order. We have the Police department, jails courts etc that punish or even induce killing (capital punishment) on criminals who are a danger to the society. So it should not be surprising that Lord who descends in His various incarnations kills various demons. His instruments are powerful enough to do His will, but when He personally descends he also gives immense pleasure to His devotees and that is the main reason for enacting many different lilas or pastimes. I must express my gratitude to Srila Prabhupada and all devotees for imparting these transcendental teachings to whom I am eternally indebted towards. I hope I was able to answer your question. One excellent reference book that I strongly recommend is : `BHAGAVAT GITA AS IT IS, by A.C. Bhativedanta Swami Prabhupada. It will make your life sublime. Haribol Satchitananda Dasa -- PRIOR POSTING PS: This is a burning question that has been misused from centuries against Indian Faiths. I would like to address this in detail. I request the moderators to allow me to do so. Thanks. Naga. Violence in Epics Any scripture can be studied from social perspective or from spiritual perspective. Once, a scripture is examined from social perspective, all characters ought to be human be it Rama or Krishna or Abraham or Zeus or Achilles. After all, these characters are visualized by humans, may be enlightened, yet humans. Therefore, the actions performed by these characters need to be obsorbed with an acute circumstantial social awareness without jumping into conclusions out of context. Hanuman tells Bhima when requested to help Pandavas in the anticipated Mahabharata war, " I belong to an erstwhile value system. Hence, I am not entitled to wage your war. " The author, Veda Vyasa, emphasises on many occasions the social boundaries within which every social norm has to be examined carefully. I suggest you to read the epics of Mahabharata and Ramayana again carefully before answering your son. It is a better idea to encourage him to study the same himself before criticizing them. Ravana has abducted Sita, wife of Rama. A common man would boil in rage to kill such a person instantly. Rama had the capability to destroy Ravan. Yet, Rama sends his representation to Ravana till the last moment to avert the war and to avoid killing of anyone. On the other hand, Ravana never regrets his actions. He interprets Rama's good will as weakness and believes that the weak ones are born only to suffer from the wrath of the strong ones like himself. The goodness is often misunderstood with weakness. He shows no interest in saving any lives as such! Also, when Rama sends Hanuman to find Sita, he requests Hanuman to understand first what Sita wants. Sita was already about to suicide notwithstanding the violence attempted against her. Thanks to Vedavati's curse and Mandodari's wisdom, Ravana could not dare violating her physically. Yet, she was literally tortured psychologically. When Hanuman reveals his identity, the first thing she reminds Rama is to liberate her from the situation at the earliest. She even puts a timeline for the action lest she would kill herself. A husband is violated and wants his wife back. He is wise enough to ensure that his wife wants the same. He is human enough to request and warn the violator. The violator is insensitive to honor others in the first place and refuses to do so even after a series of reminders and warnings even from his own brothers and wife. Is it not obvious that such characters should be removed from the society for the sake of social welfare? Same case in Mahabharata. The peace-loving Yudhishthira wages everything - kingdom, his brothers, his wife and himself - to evade a war. They accept banishment. Krishna himself pleads the Kauravas for peace. He even offers on his own that he will convince the Pandavas even if they are given just five villages - not an empire, not a kingdom, not even a province ... just five villages. Again, the violators refuse to acknowledge and honor the requests made. On contrary, they mock the peace mongers as impotents. Did they leave any choice but to be removed? Kamsa, Krishna's uncle, had murdered many new borns driven by his baseless paranoia. He had imprisoned his own sister and her husband for life. He had thrown his own father into dungeons for power. He unleashed wrath on poor villagers just for a fear of a child killing him. He drew his death nearer and nearer thanks to his own paranoia. If people were happy, why would they send Akrura to plead Krishna and Balarama to kill their own king? If they were not convinced, why would Krishna and Balarama consider killing their own uncle? If you read Bhagavata carefully, the brothers never strike on Kamsa on their own. Attempts were made to murder them at every step. Did Kamsa leave any room for his own survival? Did he leave any other way other than killing him to rescue the people? In all cases, who killed whom. Even from social perspective, Ravana, Kamsa, Duryodhana etc. had already killed themselves with their deeds by violating every human around who just wanted them dead. They just needed a power to depend upon. Rama and Krishna happened to be those. Respects. Naga Narayana. To be contd. … -- Dear Sadaks, If a doctor does operation and patient dies for some reason. Do you blame the doctor? If a judge setences a criminal to be hanged until death, do you tell judge commited murder? Here the doctor intention to save the patient. judge intention was to punish, not to murder. But if a man kills another man for gains/vengence is called murder. But if Hindu Gods kills very bad person after giving long rope, it is called in Hinduism " Vadham " , may mean termination. Like one`s leg gets affected by diabetes, the leg is cut off. Here Asuras (Very bad people) are affected by total mind corruption. There are warned now and then which can also be known from puranas. Only ultimately God terminates. In Christianity- there is a thing known as Judgement Day. Please ask Christians what it is. When Moses went 40 days on hills for prayer, leaving hundreds of peoples at the foothills, the people lost faith in GOD and they started drinking wine, made forms of eagle/animals as Gods, behaving like animals, any woman with any man, Moses came down with 10 Commandments. But all laughed at him. Result Gods in heaven says Bible, killed almost all. Even now due imbalance of Dharma, earthquake/Tsunami (Pralaya) takes place killing people. Jai Sri Krishna baiya sathyanarayan -- Narain Narain My question is to Vineet Sarvottam. Sir, if that scorpion comes into your house, then what will you do ? Pls check up with Papa and come back. It is important question. I love this father/son relationship/asking questions and wise councelling.. Lallubhai Chirimar - dear mr iyer First we have to study the Vedas, then Upanishads, Brahmanas, Aranyakas, Siksha, Nirukta, Chhandas, then the 18 Mahapuranas, 18 upa-puranas, then the Ithihaasaas Mahabharat and Ramayana etc. This is the series of study prescribed. From this it is clear that Vedas are the first to study, i.e. Lower primary, then the next upper primary, then high school, then plus 2, then degree and finally the ithihaasaas which are to be studied for PG. Our problem is what is to be studied in PG, we study in KG or lower primary. The root of man is his head and his leg portion is the head actually. The growth starts from the head portion once it is formed as a unicellular organ in the uterus. (Oordhwamoolamadhassakha...... bhagawat gita). This means now we are standing upward down position (on the reverse.) Therefore all our actions are on the reverse. So to hear something from other Dharmas like Christian or Islam or any other and think in that direction, is not of Sanathana Dharma. It has no equivalence in the world, rather, all other dharmas are born out of it only. The modern education system is teaching only of the Drishyas, means, object based (Dravyaadhishtita). Shabda, Sparsa, Roopa, Rasa, Gandha, these are only taught and studied. There is no teaching of the tought. Means, before I start studying a matter or an object which is outside me, I should first study about myself. Dear Mr Iyer, you may kindly start studying yourself. Do not think of Devataas. Devataas and men are having equally good and bad qualities. The one who is able to do MANANA he is man. No that those having two legs fitted on the stomac are men.... No never. Start asking yourself, who 'am I ? From where I came., Where I have to go/reach... What for I am sent here.. Who has sent me ? With whose ability my eyes are able to see, with whose inspiration I am being led to do the innumerable doings (karmaas), with whose wish my ears are able to hear... Just because I have two eyes, I cannot see. Just because I have two ears, I cannot hear. Just because I have tongue I cannot talk... Then what is that power which orders my these senses (INDRIYAAS) to do karma. That chaitanya swaroopa is within you covered by all the (bad) smskaaraas bought forward throug out the innumerable birth and death. This cover one has to remove or (dis- cover) then the original will shine. One reaches a stage of no.... nothing. regards vijayan kiliyil -- Dear Iyer ji namaskar Without assessing the powers of the opponent the survival is not possible. It is upto an individual which path to lead. For the benifit of mankind if voilence is utilised is a sin too but there are methods of prayashchitas too. For the welfare of mankind you have to access whom you are dealing with a most powerful demon or an ordinary person. If you have to deal with a terrorist you need to use arms and even kill him if he is a dire problem. You should explain your son simply the role of a police man/ army gaurding the nations use voilence to combat terror. In sprtuality there are various types of dealing with sinners for some the killing of demons like Ravana, Kansa and other mighty powerful ones God has to create a counter programme that could eliminate the EVIL intensions of Adharmi individuls and on the other hand where you have to deal with the common man you have to guide vast population to follow a faith and bring people on a common platform to attain harmony and peace. No incarnation can be compared with each other. Jesus the son of God fufiled a mission and blessed the world with his guidance and a noble thought but people got stuck in Churchanity instead. Mulsims received Holy Koran but today fanaticism knew no limits through its powerful followers. Hindus have a vast tresure of knowledge but most of them are busy in caste based practices and the entire world is on one side struglling for everything to achieve things through easy methods. There is no easy way to attain goals. One who has created a room for voilence gets voilence and one who deservs to be dealt with a non voilent ways get the same way and let this to be decided by the almighty and let humans do not decide on this as we lack that supreme vision that decides everything for every being present in this world. It is so upto you to follow a path that God deals accordingly for you. So simple if a terrorist bothers a nation authorities counter his actions through like agencies. If there is a person approaching or bothering authorities is dealt through dialogue and pecefully things are settled. To get convinced for the actions of incarnations you have to study the related scriptures to realise the truth. One can not be greater than other just by making a foolish assesment that one has used voilence and another has used non voilent tactic to attain something. You need to know the missions of each incarnation and at the end you will find that all had a different missions and people with different powers to deal with. If we are dealing with a rustler we must know that one is to be defeated with same trade. IF one us a poor man one has to deal with him in the simple fashion. A poor man can not be dealt with voilence. Judge the situations of both the eras you will and can satisfy your curious son. Even study voilence and non voilence in real terms. When you eat something you fulfil your need to support/ maintain your physical state. Will you stop eating just because one day you came to know that eating too in a way leads one to act via voilent means. Do not you cut plants, kill animals and while eating eat several unseen things? All the incarnations acted as per their respective TIME and requirements. One who had to use weapons used them perfectly and one who had to use compassion and love used it the brilliant way. It is upto the people for whom these greats are born as to how they deal with them. That is why incarnations acted differently but all established superiority of Dharma the truth over Evil on this globe. With regards Love and knowledge! Dalip Langoo -- 1. Hindu gods are not to be understood in the same way as the judaic / greek gods. they are manifestations of the self and relate to our own psychological processes. this has been understood recently in the west as archetypes of the self and forms part of CG jungs analytical psychology. 2. Though Hindu gods always seem to be involved in wars (conflict is a better term) hindus are generally characterised as being non-violent and gandhi is one example of this. most international violence and acts of terrorism these days are related to the middleeast the home of judaism, christianity and islam, not to hinduism, buddhism, jainism, sikhism, taoism or any other pagan tradition please read 'the god delusion' by richard dawkins Ravi Bakhsi -------------------------------- Nevertheless, in an age when artistic depiction is misused for anti- Hindu propaganda as mentioned, Hindus have to reflect and ask whether such artistic depiction is doing harm to how their faith/culture is being perceived by others and by their youth, and whether we should advise against such depictions. It is defensive and slavish mentality that Hindus are falling prey to the mechanisations of others. When one believe in one god, can there be different ones ? How Hindus or somebody else want to depict their Gods is their choice. Hindus dont have to feel sorry about making pictures of their Gods. It is none one else's concern. Sampuran sINGH - PRIOR POSTING Dear Shri Iyer: Namaskaram with respects. Hindu concept of Dharma, according to my feeble understanding, makes a distinction between violence required by one's duties, and violence done mindlessly or to seek pleasure. When a king punishes a criminal, it is done to prevent further crime, and is therefore not himsa. The distinction between himsa and ahimsa is very nicely explained in Mahabharat at several places. To my mind, the present confusion is due to advocacy of extreme ahimsa by Gandhi ji. This led to a mixing of personal dharma of an ordinary citizen with that of raj dharma of the state and the king. Gandhi ji's interpretation of ahimsa is valid only in satyuga. How would you deal with Somalian pirates by using ahimsa? Gandhiji's ahimsa itself succeeded perhaps only once – against the British. It failed against others. Further, while Hindu gods are shown armed to the teeth, Hindus themselves have remained relatively peace oriented. In other systems, the Gods have been depicted as peaceful, but the followers have been very violent. Therefore, my view is that the symbolic arming of Hindu gods is aspirational (as is the peaceful depiction in other systems), as a means to encourage Hindus to be a little more war-like. Secondly, the violence by the Hindu deities has almost always been in response to the needs of the people, and not out of spite or anger. Hope this is useful, Sanjay Agarawal - Here in the UK, we have been considering this issue for some time. During the last 2 to 3 years, we have had Christian priests telling us that Hindu faith and its gods are violent and preach violence – `look at the pictures of your gods!', they say. The letter from Shree G A Iyer thus rang de ja vu-bells for me. 1. The paintings and other depictions of Hindu divinities are the work of artists who have enjoyed, and continue to enjoy, the freedom of artistic expression their faith community has traditionally granted them. Nowhere in the scriptures is it decreed that we have to paint pictures of gods/goddesses nor that we have to show gods/goddesses carrying weapons. But to-date no one has questioned why we undertake such depictions. 2. Islam forbids artistic expressions of anything divine, or of Muhammed. Christians actively depict Christ, but only in a peaceful/suffering pose. 3. If we bear in mind that what we are being told today through revised editions and mis-translations of scriptures of faiths is somewhat different from the original scriptures, the artistic stereotyping may not necessarily correspond to the actual `life- history' of the concerned figures and their teachings. 4. Christians believe that Christ was the son of God, but he was unable to stop injustice and cruelty and gave his life in the process. That is their belief. Hindus believe in incarnation of the divine who uses supernatural powers as a last resort to destroy evil. This is not to be equated with the concept of `violence' in the ordinary human terms. Once the order is restored and the righteous victims of evil are liberated from the tyranny of the evil-doer, the avatar no longer resorts to the so-called `violence' and returns to the normal benevolent peaceful form. Our scriptures describe God as the source of bliss and auspiciousness, the avatar coming to protect devotees, to restore righteousness, and order to nature and cosmos when such is threatened. 5. Faiths should be judged i) on the basis not of propaganda but on what is actually written in their scriptures, and ii) on the actions of the faith communities. Contrast Hindus [and their record of non- aggression against other countries and against other faiths – even of giving sanctuary to those faiths fleeing persecution elsewhere – Jews, Parsees, Assyrian Christians], with the followers of other faiths who have acted to decimate other faith-based civilisations and committed genocides in India, Americas, Australia, etc. etc., almost succeeding in wiping out various civilisations and races. Nevertheless, in an age when artistic depiction is misused for anti- Hindu propaganda as mentioned, Hindus have to reflect and ask whether such artistic depiction is doing harm to how their faith/culture is being perceived by others and by their youth, and whether we should advise against such depictions. Unfortunately this is easier said than done. How do you persuade those who make money out of this industry to cease such activities? Time to reflect. Girdhari - Namaste Sadhakas.. Sumangal Suprabhat... As per my belief in our hindu religion, there is only one God " Parmatma " . All the names you noted like Shri Rama, Krishna, Durga etc. are its " Ansha " who took birth as Human being to taught us about " Dharma " & to spread " Peace & Love " . Param Parmatma created this beautiful Earth/Shrushti for us. He is controlling us. If someone is not following his 'Rules of life' and troubling others. He / she must get punished for others well-being & to keep Peace in the world. Example : If you have a box of fruits & one of them get spoiled what you will do..?? You will remove that spoiled fruit so that other fruits will remain good otherwise that one fruit will spoil others. Thanks Satish Pawaskar Keep Smiling Always ;-) India ------------------------------ God is suddha, buddha, muktha swaroopa. For killing somebody, one has to get angry. (krodha) God does not get krodha. (If it becomes angry, none of us will be thre.) To kill somebody, you have to get angry. Only, we become angry and therefore we cannot be God. Krodha is the resultant of Kaama (Aasakthi). When you slap your son, does he start praising you...? does he get Aananda. Rama never killed Ravana. Ravana is described as Moha (Aasakthi). Rama killed only the Aasakthi which was there in Ravana. The praisings of Ravana is well clearly written. Once some body goes thru it, one can understand that Rama never killed Ranava but the God gave him the Moksha. regards vijayan kiliyil ----------------------------- Hindu Gods demonstrate ;- Nip the evil in the bud. They never lose patience.the annhilation of the evil is done after many many chances for abondoning the violence against innocent are provided to the asuras (demons), who usually ignore these. Regards Shiban Raina ------------------------------ Dear Shri Iyer, Please refer to your mail of November 10/11. You say that you are a senior citizen and also a staunch Hindu, but in my eyers, you seem to be utterly confused about the basic Hindu faith. Unfortunately, most of the modern educated Hindus suffer from this confusion according to me. Resultantly, the upcoming Hindu generation is alsmost uprooted from their Hindu base. Your question as to why Hindu Gods are depicted to be showing violence (killing or annihilating evil physically), betrays ignorance of the basic Hindu tenet that Parameshwara or Paramatma (God) is one. Only Devatas and Devis, who have a positive effect on human beings are many. Parents and Gurus too are counted among Devatas, (Matridevo bhava, Pitridevo bhava). Paramatma's creative faculty personified as Brahma has no armament or weapon. Vishnu representing His executive faculty and Rudra (Shiva) representing the assimilation or dissolution faculty alone bear a weapon in one hand whereas the other hand bears a protective gesture. It only symbolises punishment to the evil doer and protection to the righteous ones. The message is concretized in the Geeta, " Paritranayaya sadhunam vinashaya cha dushkritam/ Dharma sansthapanarthaya sambhavami yuge yuge, " (From time to time, I appear on earth in order to protect the righteous ones, destroy the evil doers and to establish the rule of Dharma, i.e., righteousness or rule of law). In the Mahabharatha, (Shanti-parva, chap. 57), Bhishma Pitamah tells Yudhishthir, " The greatest sin of a king is his failure to protect his subjects. He should protect the dharma of all his Varnas. (It means that every citizen should be able to pursue his or her chosen vocation/occupation, education, trade, business, farming, lending services, doing government or private job, without let or hindrance). The king should act like Yamaraj in administering justice and like Kuber in collection of revenue. He should make provision for those who cannot support themselves and should take good care of those who help the destitute " Such lessons of Hindu scriptures have been ignored . Resultantly, they have brought the country to a breaking point. In Raj dharma, the question of violence and non-violence is irrelevant. Yours sincerely, Ram Gopal ------------------------------- -Shree Hari- There has been a lot of mention of various gods killing, in conflict, the Divine Feminine has been mentioned also on this thread. Now, I do not know these ancient Vedic literatures, but have some insights to other bronze age traditions. Emmanuel Vilakovski considered that the various ancient Greek stories of waring gods, was actually the remembrance of ancient astronomic events. I have seen on this thread, Sadhaks inferring that these ancient sagas of warring gods, was the primordial forces at work. Other Sadhaks have in my opinion, correctly pointed out that the Abrahamic traditions are the most warlike, I have an explanation as to why. Here is a quote from the book, 'A shewing of God's Love', (written by an Christian medieval female mystic ). " The mother may fold her child tenderly to her breast , but our tender Mother Jesus, He may homely lead into His blessed Breast....... " (Notice the Feminine/Masculine aspects here ). When I first read this, I thought of, (hard to believe I know), Shakti , Quan Yin , Mother Mary, and Asherah, known also as Elat , the feminine aspect of El, ( The supreme GOD). You see, She has been factored out of the world, (perhaps She is retuning, I pray She is). I ask you. Would She desire her children to kill each other.? The point is Asherah was forced out of the traditions of Israel and Judah, leaving in the minds of those people, Yahweh, without his consort, thus the Divine Feminine, the Nurturer ,was no longer in their hearts, the growth of the Patriarch religion had started. So the god of their tradition became a god of war and and male dominance. The great Swami Vivekananda pointed out the horror of the millions that were killed in the name of that (unbalanced) god . Bede Griffiths regarded a religion without balance as demonic. Sri Krishna pointed out to Arjuna that, he (Arjuna) had no memory of his past lives. Now consider this. If a swami, a doctor, maybe a Sister of Mercy, or any sweet soul., suddenly remembered with great clarity , being a warrior, raising the battle- ax, or sword in brutal warfare , what would they think. A soul can weary of war, did not Lord Krishna point out it was only the flesh and blood that was being destroyed in warfare. Many have said that the external world is a reflection of mankind's inner self. With Respect and Divine Love. Mike Keenor ---------------------------- Respected Sir, It is not the question of God or human being, the central theme is that " a woman is most often linked and the cause of fights / wars " as well as, down fall ! It may appear to be crude, but still there seems to be a connection, am I not correct? Barin Chatterjee ----------------------------- In Short, Hindus believe in the principle so nonviolence that is practical and can be practiced in day to day life. Christians believe in a Utopian nonviolence theory that neither they nor anyone else can practice. To elaborate, I suppose your son is not old enough to introspect and understand. First of all there are no Hindu Gods and Christian god. There is just ONE power that is omnipresent in all the things/beings. And it (I will not call it he or she) is not really non-violence per our definition, else no one ever died, no one got killed and there was no war ever etc. I understand that your son is really referring to the incarnations / perceptions of Gods that Hindus and Christians respectively believe in. First thing that you need to know is per Christians Jesus is not a God. He is the " Son of God " or the Messiah. Per Christians God never incarnated but Hindus do believe that God incarnates and so there is no point in comparing their perception of God to Hindu perception. Mahatma Gandhi's nonviolence was predominantly adopted from Christianity to fight them back on their own turf and with their own weapon. Persecution of nonviolent people by British brought back the memories of persecution of Jesus and his disciples and received extensive coverage and support from rest of the Christian world, forcing British out of India. In India Buddha preached and followed non violence, however, his disciples when they went to China to teach Buddhism they first learned martial arts to protect themselves during the journey. This is how martial art first reached China which they later expanded upon. Nonviolence shouldn't be confused with cowardice. Nonviolence means not hurting others for pleasure and self-fulfillment. However, fighting (and if needed killing) for protecting self and others can not be categorized as Violence. Nonviolence also means giving peace a chance before waging a war. That is why both Ram and Krishna sent a last peace message to Ravan and Duryodhan so the war could be avoided. Anand Awasthi PRIOR POSTING If you have some problem in any part of your body, first you try to cure it, but when it becomes incurable it has to be cut off to prevent rest of the body. World is viraat swaroop (Universal Form) of God. All creatures are parts of it. Things become clear when you think from God's point of view. Thanks Raja Gurdasani - Dear Sadhakas, Namaste! Shashikala Bahenji, right you are: " who can kill who " , as all is immortal/imperishable! I guess Sadhakas are answering in the best possible ways they know, because it is to be explained by a father to a son who is asking such questions as he should. Perhaps it is a giant leap to grasp such concept as immortality, which may not be appreciated at this stage in son's life! My short answer is: " when one inquires into deeper meanings of God, Life, Death, Incarnations, (non)Violence, being Hindu, Hindu Gods etc, one may come upon understanding that many questions like this get answered in the satisfactory way " . Now I would teach my son these things, but I didn't know myself when they were growing up! In my experience the best answer to one's question is the disappearance of question itself in the light of understanding question, as J Krishnamurti used to say " Please see that the answer is in the question " . Namaskar..... Pratap Bhatt ----------------------------- Hari Om 'Violence' is a relative term. Basically in the divine play of God, humans enjoy certain liberties of conduct. There are laws governing the entire creation. Humans have immense powers but identification with the mind and body makes them 'desire' for worldly temporary pleasures. Here they come in conflict with another law- desires can never be fulfilled, you can only renounce them. In order to fulfill the desires, one indulges into violence. 'Gods' in order to keep the creation going 'mete out' the results of deeds in an equally violent manner- as you sow, so shall you reap.. In fact, when they do so, they are liberating the souls from darkness. Hence, it is all 'play' , there is no violence, there is only 'mercy', there is only 'love' emanating from the top. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B -------------------------------- Namaste, Sanatana Dharma is not a simplistic/moralistic philosophy where things/ acts are categorised as eternally good or bad. It is the context that determines whether an act is good or bad. consequently when adharma prevails - the destruction/ killing of the 'asuras' is necessary for greater good. To give you an analogy - a knife might be considered as an instrument for violence but it is also necessary for cutting vegetables etc. The oft quoted verse 'ahimsa paramo dharmah' from the Gita is only half of the entire line which concludes with 'dharma himsa tathaiva cha' - himsa is equally valid when used for dharma. Gods in our tradition perpetrated violence against those forces that prevented Truth / dharma from prevailing and therefore cannot be judged in the same tone as those who commit senseless violence. Hope this helps. Shubhamastu Anuradha Choudry -------------------------------- Many Rishis such as 'Balmiki' were masters of weaponry and yet they opted not to fight because they are Brahmins, not authorized to slay but authorized to teach. The TriDev Brahma, Vishnu and Maheswar are in-charge of this universe and they have to do whatever is good for mankind. Manoj Padhi ------------------------------- fellow sadhakaas, namasteji..There is no escape from birth and death cycles..all our prayers wish peace and happiness..three times...But..if you can't defend yourself with vachaa, love..etc..you have to kill by Mantra or sahastra..even God had to exterminate terror by bad elements. Hari Om Vishnu Dada (Vishnu Patel) -- PRIOR POSTING There is only one God. No Hindu God or Muslim God or Christian God. They are all one and the same. Besides all human beings, irrespective of religion have souls whose ultimate destiny is to merge with God or the Parmatma. So to say this God is violent and the other is not is an exercise in futility. Hari Shanker Deo - Dear Mr. Iyer, Gods created all creatures on earth. A few of them tried to supercede GOD and also tried to destabilise the world. GOD had to ensure that these creatures do not wreak havoc. hence the destruction of evil. Anil Jain - Jai Hanuman Where is the question of some one " killing " another, when everyone is " immortal/imperishable " as a law ? Can any sadhak enlighten me, Jee ? So that I may address this question !! Kindly help, Jee ! Jee !! 'Violence' by 'Gods' ! Raam, Raam, Raam !! Mike Bhaiyya ! Pratap Bhaiyya! Sathyanarainji !! Adrien !! Any one Jee ! But quickly Jee !! Will you come to my rescue with reference to 'self' and 'Gitaji' - Jee! Jee ! ! Your sister is too stunned and anxious by the question, Jee ! Who can kill whom Jee ! What do you say Adrien ? Namaste Jee Jee Jee Shashikala ----------------------------- ----------------------------- 1. Hindu gods are to be understood in the same way as the judaic / greek gods. they are manifestations of the self and relate to our own psychological processes. this has been understtood recently in the west as archetypes of the self and forms part of CG jungs analytical psychology. 2. though Hindu gods always seem to be involved in wars (conflict is a better term) hindus are generally characterised as being non- violent and gandhi is one example of this. Majority of the international violence and acts of terrorism these days are related to the middleeast the home of judaism, christianity and islam, not to hinduism, buddhism, jainism, sikhism, taoism or any other pagan tradition. please read 'the god delusion' by richard dawkins for great understanding. Ravi Bakhsi Dear Mr Iyer, Violence is something that you cannot avoid. Tell me when you eat vegetarian food do you not think that those vegetables and rice and dal and other such food also grew which means they had a life. Which means that the vegetables and rice were alive and were killed for your ultimate consumption. That is violence to a lesser degree. What makes you think that violence does not occur everyday? Even when you breathe you kill millions of bacteria that enter your nose and mouth. Let me put it to you that without a section of the population taking the initiative of killing bad elements in any society, others do not have the luxury of being non-violent. hope this helps Prashanth Thirukkonda - Dear spiritual brothers and sisters, Vedas do not advise just non violence but lay emphasis on Non Violence of the strong. Prakrti- the divine subtle Nature which is our Supreme Mother according to Vedas is extremely strong and powerful but largely peaceful and non violent. She provides a Book of Nature which even blind people and even animals/fishes/birds can read and wants us to follow Rts- Her cosmic laws of necessity for our social, moral and physical order. Like any benevolent and loving mother she remains peaceful and affectioante most of the time but gets extremly violent when we flout her Cosmic Laws of Nature and start spreading social, moral and physical evils. Hindu gods (Ishwaras) are Not God- as there is only One universal God for the entire mankind wise men describe Him with different names. All the Hindu gods/goddesses (Ishwaras/devas/devis) are extremely powerful and strong but like Prakrti merciful, benevolent and always keen to ensure that cosmic Laws of nature (Rta) are observed by all her children who are noble people. Thus Hindu Ishwaras/devas/devis are the greatest followers of Non violence of the Strong but get violent if evil is spread in society, environment is polluted and hydra headed CORRUPTION with Nine Heads over takes virtue, ethics, divine thoughts and social nobilty. Incidentally Mahatma Gandhi never talked of Non Violence in a general way but always talked of Non Violence of the Strong. He wanted people of India to become morally, spiritually and physically strong and then non violent. Non violence of the Weak is self destruction. He has greatly emphasised this point in his Biography " My Experiment With Truth " . None of our gods/godesses become violent for the sake of violence but give a very long rope to evil people to change and behave conforming to Vedic Rta but those non divine people (Avarnas/Vritras) who encourage all actions against Laws of Nature and create social, moral and physics pollution strict action is taken by Hindu Ishwras/devas/devis. with kind regards, Prem Sabhlok -- PRIOR POSTING Shree Hari Ram Ram Shri Iyer Bhaiyya, Tell your son simply that to eradicate evil, one has to engage in violence. If your son understands about a scorpion and his sting, then ask him that if a scorpion comes into the house and is running around to sting someone, what would he do? Sometimes, a question posed against a question, can be a better clarifier, than an answer. So be it ! Vineet Sarvottam -------------------------------- Dear Sadhak, According to the Yajnavalkya Samhita, ahimsa or non-violence is the awareness and practice of non-violence in thought, speech and action. Do we practice Non-violence at that lavel ??? Do we not kill mosquitoes, cockroches and so many other so called " harmful being " according to us? What do you say about - Hang till death, cutting hands of a thief and so many other such so called justice orders? All our Puranas have symbolic meaning, they want us to look deep inside us. The war between good and evil is going on inside us only. Do we not need to " kill " our bad thoughts ? Do we call killing of our bad thoughts/demonic qualities as the act of violence ? Who gives power to kill those bad qualities within ? Ya Devi Sarvabhuteshu Shakti rupen sansthita Namstasye, namstasye, Namstasye namo Nama " I bow to the Divine Mother Who resides within me as Power/Strength " Thus MaaDurga-Goddess of Motherly Love, Mother of sur (Demigods/our good qualities) and Asura(Devils/our bad qualities) alike, cannot be blamed as performing violence. She is washing away the evils of Her sons by purifying them through Her divine weapons, and ultimately merging them all in Her own Divine Love. Similarly Lord Shiva, who drank vemon for the welfare of the entire universe, whose another name is Bhole Baba(Innocent God who pleases easily and bless us without considering our good/bad karmas) can not even think of violence. Read more about Him and you will know how merciful is He. We cannot know about our Gods until we know our own self. The Supreme is seated right into our own Heart. Look within, meditate deeply and know Thy Self. Surrender to Gitaji and go beyond the duality of this world. Krishna says- " I am the goal, the sustainer, the master, the witness, the abode, the refuge and the most dear friend. I am the creation and the annihilation, the basis of everything, the resting place and the eternal seed. " Gitaji Ch 9:18 He is All then who is killing whom ? We are not the body, and suffering is all illusion arising from the Nature. If we want to see peace, love and bliss in the world, we have to " BE " peace, love and bliss. There is no other way. There is no Hindu GOD or Christian God. There is only ONE, and that ONE GOD cannot be understood by debate as He is beyond duality, beyond mind, intellect. God can only be experienced. If your son wants to understand Sanatan Dharma, present him with a Gitaji. Read Gitaji over and over again, contemplate on each stanza. Come back and answer your own question. With lots of Love, A sadhika Sadhna Karigar - Dear Sir, We all need to better understand the Hindu philosophy and its message. First of all we need to understand the meaning of non- violence. Does it mean only physical act of killing or harming? No. any act leading to harm or hurt others through thought, word or deed is Non-violence. A physical act of killing in a war with a pure intension of good of the mankind is again not classified as violence. Unfortunately, this thought also is misunderstood, misinterpreted and misused now a days. When a mother slaps a child it is not called violence. because the act originates out of Love. The stories which you are referring to are from an era when evil could be identified as a person. who in many cases knew what is evil or wrong but could not help act in that influence.. that time to remove the evil was to destroy them. Even if you look at the story of Gods killing... you would find that it was the last resort. Even those 'evil' people were given all the possible chances and opportunities to change. Only when they refused to comply and the suffering of good become unbearable the physical act of annihilation was performed, to reinstate the faith, to restore righteousness. It is high time we realize that spirituality is not for weak. it requires Will of Shankra, courage of Vivekanand. Today good and evil have become seen in every person. hence to destroy the evil path of annihilation of the person is not resorted. In todays time the solution is - Transformation of heart. for this the divine beings use various methods. even allowing themselves to suffer. Lets not misinterpret their divine pure act of grace. We are such people who would not hesistate to crucify Jesus and do nothing to stop and fight against but will be first to feel pity after the act is done. we dont want to self introspect why he was crucified. we are just contented to know that he was crucified for our sins. As if the godly people have the obligation to be crucified while we continue on our unjust ways. if you love Jesus then share his pain by being good and just. be open and understanding, be loving towards all. God has given each one enough strength to fight our own battles. be willing to suffer the punishments for the mistake committed, dont pass it on to god or godly people and expect them to suffer for you. I request you to not use such words " hindu gods lose patience " . this thought itself is full of ignorance. First of all know - There is only one GOD and he is omnipresent, omniscience, and omni-potent. What ever God does is for good of all. Even the physical act of so called violence is for the good. it is for us to understand how, when and why he does what he does. Even to qualify to question god we must first become a humble student. then may be the divine wisdom would fall on us to understand and enjoy the bliss of his grace. sai ram Abhimanyu Kaul Sadaks With birth comes death. Mahatma Gandhi fought with weapons he had i.e. none, but you cannot run a country on that philosophy as India found out with China. We must all defend Dharma. This is the best. A persons duty is to live according to Dharma and to defend it. From Ahimsa paramo dharmaha, Dharma himsa tathaiva cha. This Is the full proper statement. Each person has to follow the work according to his caste and station in life. Kshatriyas job is to defend and fight for dharma. This is amply show in Gita, Ramayan, Mahabharat, in FACT THE ONLY HOLY BOOK WRITTEN ON A BATTLE FIELD IS THE GITA. Non violence is the best Dharma, but to attain it HIMSA (violence) is required to defend this is the message. Jayesh A Patel PRIOR POSTING dear brother loves and best wishes. The creator Himself has said in Geeta that the very purpose of His incarnation in human form is to destroy the wicked, to save the righteous. In fact this seems to be one of the necessary divine rule. Moreover non-violence does not mean not to resist evil. thanks. ck kaul ------------------------------- II SHRI HARI II Respected Shri Iyer Ji, One must understand God or Lord, a Prophet and Saint in their respective capacity. Our Gods and Hindu Dharma do not follow the principle of Violence (Hinsa) and in fact, Violence (Hinsa) has no place in any of Hindu scriptures and character of our Gods and Saints. Our scriptures say " Ahinsa Param Dharmo " (Non-violence is the ultimate (basis) of religion). Life (Leela) of our Gods and Saints show no violence whatsoever. To understand this you must go through our scriptures carefully under the guidance of eminent Sdhakas and participate in the Satsang of our great Saints (Sad Gurus). In Sanatan Dharma, there are mainly five Gods (Panch Devas) and only these Panch Devas are worshipped. Although, there are thirty three crore Devi Devtas and they are all the parts of only Panch Devas. In other religions we do not find Gods but the great Saints who are said to be Sons of Gods and sent by God to spread peace and the teachings of Gods. Our religion spreads over infinite time, you can count the origination and time for the others. First of all it is important to understand Ravna, Bali, Kans and numerous other Asur (Rakshasas). All these Asur were God's devotees (Bhaktas) and following the path of Vair (enmity) Bhakti (devotion for enmity). There are two type of devotees (Bhaktas) first Premi Bhaktas (dveotees who love God) and second the Vairi Bhaktas (devotees who keep enmity with God). Purpose of both devotees is same i.e. attainment of God. Ravna and his brother Kumbh Karan both were Jay and Vijay the Door Men (Dwar Pal) of Lord Vishnu's Vaikuntha lok. One day Sanakadik Rishis were going to meet God Vishnu in the Vaikunthalok and Jay and Vijay the Door Men (Dwar Pal) of Lord's Vaikunthalok stopped them at the door saying that they can not enter Vaikuntha without God Vishnu's permission, which was quite surprising as Rishis and Saints do not require permission to enter any of Divya Lokas. Therefore, Sanakadik Rishis got angry over the attitude of Jay and Vijay the Door Men (Dwar Pal) of Lord Vaikuntha and passed on curse (Shraap) to Jay and Vijay to take birth three times in Asuras (Rakshasas). Frightened by the curse (Shraap), Jay and Vijay fell on the lotus feet of Sanakadik Rishis for mercy (Daya) and Lord Vishnu also requested Sanakadik Rishis to show some compassion and Sanakadik Rishis relaxed their curse (Shraap) and told that though Jay and Vijay will take birth in Asur Kul (Rakshasas, Demons) but Lord Vishnu will take reincarnation (Avtaar) for their welfare (Udhar). And Sanakadik Rishis said this will happen likewise (Tthasthu). Accordingly, Jay and Vijay the Door Men (Dwar Pal) of Lord Vishnu's Vekunthalok, took birth in Asur Kul in Treta Yug and Lord Ram took incarnation (Avtaar) for their well being (Udhar). Ravna and his brother Kumbh Karan along with numerous Asurs (demoniac beings) were killed and each of them went to Satlok. In Dwaapar they took birth as Dantvakra and Shishupal, the associates of Kans, and Lord Krishna took incarnation (Avtaar) for their well being (Udhar). Dantvakra and Shishupal along with so many Asurs were killed by Lord Krishna and each of these Asurs (demoniac ones) went to Lord Krishna's dham (abode). When the Jeev gets Lord's Divya Lok on his death, he is called Badbhagi (great in destiny) as he gets Lord's Divya Lok which the Sadhu, saints, Rishi and sadhakas long for. For each of the Lord's incarnation (Avtaar), there are various reasons (Hetu) and to fulfill each of the reason (Hetu) Lord takes incarnation (Avtaar) for the welfare of Lord's devotees (Bhaktas). Ram Charit Manas states " RAM JANAM KE HETU ANEKA, PARAM VICHITRA EK TE EKA " . You can understand these only by participating in the Satsang and by carefully going through and understanding our holy scriptures like Shreemad Bhagwat, Ram Charit Manas, Shiv Mha Puran, Skand Puran, Vedas, Upnishaidas, Shruty and Samrity granthas and even sidh Chalisa like hanuman Chalisa, Durga Chalisa, Shive Chalisa and so on. Perhaps you do not know about the sacrifice of our great Rishis and Saints and that's why you are quoting the example of Jesus. Our Dadhichi Rishi sacrificed his body to give his bones (Asthiyan) to Indra Dev the king of Devtaas to make Vajra from the Rishi's bones (Asthiyan) for killing Vritasur Asur to save the Srishti from demolition. Sanatan Dharma possesses infinite knowledge of the Infinite Lord. No other religion possesses such a large variety of Holy Scriptures. There are four Vedas, 301 Upnishaidas, 18 Puranas, Vedant and enormous Saint Charitar, Saint Vaani, Guru Vaani etc. It is simply enormous! That's why it is stated in Ram Charit Manas " HARI ANANT HARI KATHA ANANTA , KAHI SUNI BAHU VIDHI SAB SANTA " . The Gatha (Katha) of Ananat Bhagwan, the One whose birth and death is not known to any body, the One who is unborn and do not die and the One who is beyond birth and death is INFINITE (Aseem, Athaha)! How can men like us who are definite, limited in life and strength can know his Katha. Sanatan Dharma is a non-violent religion. Do not be misconceived or misguided. Go to Satsang, read our holy scriptures and then only you will be able to express your true quest (Jigyas) for knowledge. May Bhagwan Shree Hari Har satisfy your doubts! Shubham Astu, RAJINDER MOHAN VOHRA -------------------------- Thank you for forwarding this letter. I believe Krishna never resorted to any violence - he tried to protect non-violence. Krishna never advised Arjuna to kill people or resort to violence. Can you show anywhere in GITA Krishna advising a war? Gods are to protect non-violence and to maintain dharma. They are not Saints. Lovingly Dr.Uday Pai -------------------------- Dear Sir: Perhaps Hindu Gods resort to " violence " so that Hindu people stay peaceful. Only Hinduism can create a Gandhi, as you pointed out, the staunches non-violent person. While other religion's God may not appear to be violent, the people of other religion appear to be more violent than Hindus, as can be observed by events today and by events of History. Viz. Followers of a " peaceful " Jesus initiated the Crusades. So maybe there is an inverse relationship between the behavior of Gods and their followers ?? (Based on my understanding, the old testament of the Christians is full of violence. " Slay the idolators, destroy the idols " , " leave no man, woman, child, animals of the enemy alive " to paraphrase some of the writings.) Also, the violence of the Hindu Gods is not mindless violence. There are some people who only listen to violence. For example, the terrorists who are bombing innocent people in India can only be handled thru like minded treatment. Perhaps, publicly blowing up a terrorist in the same place he planted bombs to kill innocent people is the only language he will listen to. So in that sense I wish Hindus would get more aggressive to seek justice. And Dharma requires this. Dilip Bhagat --------------------------- Hare Ram Hare Krishna Dear Sir, Pranam If your question has arisen out of a thirst to understand the God, then I whole heartedly welcome it and try to put my views as below. However if it has arisen with an intention of malice, then it is time to quit all false books/thoughts leading you to such confusions or debates and concentrate only on the divine Gita - the ultimate guide to reach the one and only God. According to the holy Gita, God is the most superior, the ultimate power, the invincible, and is always victorious. The common sense also confirms this, otherwise anyone can defeat God and he/she can become God. Just as living things are created by God, it is His duty to digest them within Himself and give life to new ones to maintain the balance of this universe. This digestion into Himself has happened in many ways - in the form of moksha to the Rushis who had spent a peaceful life worshipping Him throughout their life, in the form of death to those who approached a violent form of life and in several ways. This had been confirmed by the existence of Lord Krishna, who is the ONE and ONLY GOD in this world and Bhagavad Gita is the proof for it. The portraying of victory of good over evil have been depicted as VIOLENT for common man to understand but it is all part of his MAYA ! And remember it was the choice Jaya and Vijaya made to die in the hands of the God Himself three times as evil doers than to be his devotees and wait for the MOKSHA after 6 rebirths. And why do you focus only at these depictions and see it as a physical violence while there are plenty of instances in puranas where God had been so merciful and loving - mokhas to rushis, life to the dead, etc. I hope my explanation will answer you that God doesn't lose patience and resort to violence. Regarding your reference to Jesus, He was a messiah of peace who suffered and died for the people. A God is there to protect the good from evil. If God cannot protect himself in the hands of evil, how can he protect the good from the evil? From my perspectivie it is illogical to think that someone suffered pain in the past for the sins which will be committed by future generations. It should be the other way round. And the existence of Lord Krishna is the best example of the triumph of God over evil or mere mortals. He killed the evil and he was always victorious. He was so merciful to end his incarnation in the hands of his beloved devotee as per his promise in his previous incarnation as Lord Rama. I hope and pray that you and your son will read the divine Gita with a positive mind-set, as all of us should do, and attain Lord Krishna with our good thoughts and deeds. Hare Ram Hare Krishna SRIKANTH MOHAN KETHU --------------------------- Dear Sadak, The statement of Sri Iyer GA that Bagavan Shiva killed Kameswar. Dear Sir, Vayu Bagavan is wind, Varna Bagavan is Rain and so on. The demi gods are having No specific form. They are Pancha Boothas. Kameswar is not GOD or demi God. Kameswar is symbol of desire. Kama + Easwaran-- means Kama desire-- Easwaran ruler. Kameswaran is ruler of desires. Bagavan Shiva killed Kameswar by HIS 3rd eye. We can also kill desires by our 3rd eye Gyana located between 2 eye brows were thilak is put upon. Again-- Kama never leaves anyone by its nature. But it did not work out in case of Bagavan Shiva. Also purana says that Kameswar was given back the power. This Kameswar was sent by Indra to distrub Bagavan Vishnu while doing Yogic Tapas in Badrinath. Kameswar failed in his attempt and Sri Vishnu gave Menaka a very beautiful looking lady as present to Indra through Kameswar. These puranas have hidden concepts. B.Sathyanarayan --------------------------- Evil can not be fought with platitudes. For example if we stand with folded hands before terrorists then they will gain the upper hand. That is what our ancient books teach us. Our Gods fought evil even in Satyug and we should fight evil in Kaliyug too. That is the lesson for us. Even in Christian countries, they have armies and give death sentences to murderers. Remember Iraq and Afghanistan? Hari Shanker Deo ----------------------------- I don't think there should be so much concern about " Hindu " " Gods " . The word Hindu itself is a misnomer, and should not be used to characterize the Bharatyia philosphical traditions. Most linguists will agree that it started with the " Satem/hatem " divide in the IE languages, and the " hatem " group residing outside the geopolitical context of the subcontinent who corrupted Sindhu into Hindu. Sindhu was a part of the " Mahabharatm " of Krishna and not the whole. The Arabs do mention " Hind-va-Sind " in the 7-8th century chronicles, thereby distinguishing and extending the concept from mere " Sindhu " . But no " Hindu " inscriptions use the term until 15th century. There are also many " Gods " . Vishnu descends as avatar, but Shiva does not. The Gods do not always show fairness in their treatment and this is the reason sometimes they have to justify their actions by introducing " past life karma " , something obviously unverifiable by the majority of the commoners. The Ramayana story as popularly rendered omits certain crucial details from the Balmiki version relevant for this topic, like that of why Ravana had to be invited by Rama to perform the rites of initiation ( " Bodhana " ) of Chandi/Durga - the same rites carried out by the avatar of Vishnu to gain ultimate victory over Ravana. Ravana was the best " Brahmin " available (what happened to " caste " - the same " caste " which has even found its way into the Gita as something whose breakdown by the " women " and others leads to eventual destruction of " civilization " and " dharma " - the Asura clan Ravana, who fights and abducts women like the Kshatryias being a Brahmin!) for even Brahma had omitted Gayatri recitation for one " Sandhya " and was unfit as a " yagnik " (lets not go into the actual reason as to why he could not - as it might throw some lights on possible motivations even in this fountainhead of " Brahmanya " revelation). The " Gods " and the " Asuras " both derived from the same " father " , and to start with they were not even " immortal " . They had to coopt the asura " siblings " to extract " amrita " and then needed Vishnu to cheat them of their legitimate share. The Gods get tempted by the beauty of mortal women, like Ahalya, and seduce or rape them. It becomes convenient then later to invent " bad past Karma " to justify such unfair treatment of humans. In this the common Gods do resemble (and were perhaps in reality just deification of actual humans or modeled on the " aristocracy " of the time) the common historical behaviour of elite ruling class. The real strength of Bharatyia philosophy should be sought in a proper analysis and absorption of the Upanishads, the Gita, and the Mahabharatam - the last two being essentially statements on political society and individual's relation with that of the state and the social group. These have little to do with the " Gods " - Gods have minor roles in the Mahabharatam, the original source of the Gita. Gods are just a reflection of humanity, and should not be given so much importance. The Upanishads give a framework very much in compliance with modern science and logic, as to how humans should continue to explore the world around them and continuously update their knowledge - never to be stationary with one ossified belief without continuous requestioning ( " Charaibeti " ). The Mahabharatam and the Gita, edited out of their obvious later " priestly opportunistic addition " of support of unfair and unauthentic practices like " hereditary and for-life varna " gives the guiding principle for social interaction and the nature of the state - a crucial vision of nationhood embodied in this ideal of Krishna. " Gods " are not the primary messages of these core texts - they are mere additions by interested priests to extract benefits from society without contributing in real terms. " dikgajone " --------------------------- Sir, To my limited mind, there are two types of powers SUR (divine) and AASUR (demoniac). And Ishwara (God) also has to adopt the aasura (demoniac) powers in order to destroy the aasuri (demoniac) aspects in a aasur (demoniac) person. A Sur (Virtuous, Divine person) is always of positive behaviour. This is simplest and easiest way to understand. Ram Ji also killed AASURAs (demoniac men) because He is Ishwara (God), Himself, and does not need extra powers to switch between Sur (Divine) and AAsur (Demoniac) properties to accomplish a task. " apb1942 " ---------------------------- PRIOR POSTING Dear sadaks, First about Human-- Man kills man-Why? Enemity, Greed Etc Etc. Animals kill animals only for food. Hindu God never resort to Violence but terminate extremely Bad people for the betterment of human beings at large. Here the Gods benefit nothing, but they act to save human beings at large. It is depicted in such a manner by some that it looks like violence. Kans is maternal uncle of Sri Krishna. Kans jailed his parents, Devaki and Vasudev. Sri Krishna as child left Mathura, but Kans went on sending asuras (demoniac people) to kill Sri Krishna. Asuras came to Krishna from Mathura, but Krishna never went there to kill. In defense Sri Krishna killed Asuras. The sacred truth behind this killing is giving Mukthi (salvation) to them. When God incarnates and kills, it is divine to die in the hands of Bhagavan. Sri Krishna never killed Jarasand though he waged war several times. Duryodhan was not killed though he tried to rope up Krishna who came as messenger for Pandavas. These people were unfit to die in HIS hands. Several warnings were given to Kans to behave himself and since he failed he was killed. Besides Kans was door keeper at Vaikunth as Jaya/Vijaya. Due to ego there they were cursed by Sanakadhi Munis to be born on earth. Actually Kans after being killed went to Vaikunth. Sri Rama was quietly living in the forest, why should Ravana abduct and carry Mother Sita to Lanka? When Ravana lost war and became alone without arms in his hand, Sri Rama said to Ravana Go today think of your sins and come tomorrow. But Ravana came to wage war again knowing that he will be killed. So also other Gods did. Jesus was born as human acquired Gyana between the age 14 to 30 became saint. Normally saints or Sanyasins are forbidden to any type of killing. They allow other to kill them, as it is their knowledge that body alone is being destroyed, but not the Soul (Athuman). When Jesus rose from death with body of wounds it was astrial body (Non Destructable). His disciple never believed Jesus and tested Jesus' wound on his ribs by sending his pointing finger into the wound. This disciple finger is still not perished and remains an exhibit. Demons with strong powers can be killed by Gods only. Now take Maha Lakshmi who incarnated as Sri Andal in Srivalliputtur, was tought by her God father Sri Pria Alwar the good deeds of Sri Krishna. She fell in love with Krishna and wanted to marry Sri Krishna. She took to 30 days Dhanurmasa Vrath and in presence of Chola king and people she was taken abode of Sri Vishnu who gave Dharshan to all with Sanka, Chakra, four Arms Etc on Garuda. Gods appear (Not Born) looks like being born. Sri Krishna was with 108 occult powers when born. To people it looks as being born. Sri Rama or Sri Krishna opted to be kshatriya / yadava not as Brahmin. Brahmins are forbidden to kill. Sanyasin (ascetics) are tought to give in themselves, when someone strikes them. Like Adi Sankara/Buddha/ Christ. B.Sathyanarayan Some of the Demons / Ill-minded souls are hard to change with preachings alone. They have to be physically removed like weeds, because they go beyond repair and are harmful to mankind. Also these characters and killing by GOD need not be taken in the literal sense. To make common people like us to understand, some of these might have been personified, otherwise it is mostly how to control the inner evils like greed/ ego etc to attain divinity " mvssr75 " ------------------------------- -Shree Hari- Dear Iyer GA, What a blessing you have in a son that wants to debate such things with you and visa versa. A respectful correction.Yahweh(Christian/Judaic God) was involved in wholesale slaughter and genocide. When the hard shell around ones spiritual heart is broken, the taste for violence is lost. I am looking forward to the wise council of the Sadhaks. I think this is a very interesting question. With Respect and Divine Love. Mike Keenor -------------------------------- VIOLENCE is when you apply force UNLAWFULLY, SHOURYA is KARTAVYA (Duty) to restore DHARMA Dear Iyer, Lord krishna himself went to Su(Dhur)yodhana and adviced to give back what belonged to Pandavas. Did they heed? So lord had to KILL them to teach this world that if you try to keep that which does not belong to you, it will be disaster. Lord pardons who ever takes asylum in him, kills who goes against him (Nature). Gandhi policy does not apply to all cases. Can we sit in front of afzal guru fasting like Gandhi and make him repent for his attack on parliament? Please try it and then ask why krishna killed Kamsa. You yourself will take a weapon to restore Dharma if your son is hurt by any anti-social element and when they try to do again and again. Using Shourya is kartavya (duty) and is a part of restoring Dharma (righteousness) and shanti (peace). Violence is not a part of Hindu Gods or any body who protects Mother Land. It is called " shourya " Please note if our people in borders chant Om shanti, then bullets come from other side and may hit your chest. So a protector(God or any king/human being like soldier) has to use force to subdue non-social element to restore the civilizaton, else country will be weak and no place for Dharma. Hindu gods showed this ... to be strong and rise to occasion. Save the Dharma even if you have to kill your own brother. Non-violence should be practised but not at all times. HARI OM TATH SATH shiva Kumar shapur Dear Shri Ayer, I too am an old man, vegetarian and certainly non-violent. But I am a devotee of Durga. It is depicted in various forms including Mahishmardani. Similarly other Hindu Gods too may be shown in benevolent forms like Gyatri, Lord Vishnu or Brahma Even Shiva may be depicted in the dance pose. Dear friend you look inside. You will find a conflict going in all the time. Good ultimately prevails. But it is so because of a fight between the God and the devil. So my suggestion is enjoy the fights and always stand by the righteousness. With best wishes. Shridhar Pant -------------------------------- Shreemanji, There is a small anamoly. You say you are a senior citizen and haven't been able to realise the answer to your question in all these years ????? Is there any difference between Bhartiya (Indian/Hindu) and other Gods ? Read the scriptures with an open mind and NOT blind faith or dislike. It has all got to do with human psychology. You will discover the answer yourself. Pranam Sampuran Singh - GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: 1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify their doubts related to Gitaji shlokas. Therefore, responses which further clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be posted. 2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to substantiate your response. 3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas 4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting sadhaka's time. 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only. 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other organizations. 7. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone number, address etc. 8. Please do not address the response to a particular individual since the message is going to the entire group. 9. Due to the large readership, all responses may not be posted. 10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if content is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the group. 11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use to Sanskrit words only, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit bracketed wherever possible. MODERATOR Ram Ram ------------------------ Post message: Subscribe: - Un: - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 20, 2008 Report Share Posted November 20, 2008 Respected Sirs, I am hindu, a senior citizen, vegetarian and a non-violent loving person. Mahatma Gandhi was the staunchest of non-violent human beings. Though every one, violent and non violent alike would like peace prevail in this world VIOLENCE is happening in this world, knowingly or unknowingly. My question is - Why Hindu Gods are depicted to be showing violence (killing or anihilating evil physically)? eg: Lord Krishna Kills Kamsa, Goddess Durga Kills Pandasura and other Asuras, Lord Shiva Kills Kameswar, Lord Rama Kills Ravana and Bali. Lords of other religions do not appear to follow these paths, no matter the extent of the sufferings one has to undergo. Jesus suffered all along, though he too was believed to have had super natural powers. Kindly enlighten me, in the circumstances, why Hindu Gods loose patience and resort to violent killings to eliminate evil? I have to answer my son who debates with me often. Pranams ! Iyer GA -- NEW POSTING 2. Soceity – Individual – Non-Violence Any soceity always faces two problems – (1) the invaders looking for opportunites like hawks and vultures to feed upon a weak society; and (2) the schemers within a society to promote their causes beyond their rights geopardising the social integrity. That is the fact. The social health and prosperity depends on the society's integrity and strength. So is for a person – the external invaders in terms of objective attractions and the internal schemers in terms of desires and fears perpetually feed on a gullible individual. They join hands to geopardise internal strength and fracture personal integrity of the individual in the game of survival. One should not mislead a soceity (and an individual) in the name of " non-violence " or any other high-sounding phrases that may weaken it to become vulnerable to its own doom. It is the primary responsibility of every individual – personally as well as socially. In my opinion, one of the root cause for the milleniums of subjugation of Indian population is the superficially preached, wrongly understood and illusively adapted extra-ordinary concepts such as non-violence. One can disguise under " non-violence " and let the whole population including oneself suffer the violence under a tyrant insider or invader – one may call it non-violence or tolerance; but I call it indifference and even cowardice. Or one may gather strength to face and terminate the tyrant to let the whole population and oneself live in peace – one may call it violence or aggression; but I call it self-assertion and progression. Whenever the body is infested it should be disinfected and whenever it is under attack it should be quarantined off the infectors ... so is a house, and a village, as well as a nation. We can treat the epics such as Ramayana and Mahabharata as either personal saga or social saga or both toward establishing and maintaining social/individual balance of presence against the odds around as well as within. The human characters battling for sustanence of social balance in terms of morale, prosperity and stability would become the variance in natural elements that stirr an individual pcyche in terms of experiences and their traces recorded by the psyche in terms of memories, constantly nurturing clones of desires and fears in the individual in infinitude, battling for sustanance of psychological balance in terms of esteem, fulfillment and confidence. True violence is within an individual (or a soceity) rooted in one's treatment to one's own nature. Suffering is the indicator of the violence. One would feel injured only when one's nature is violated knowingly or unknowingly. Developing desires contrary to one's nature is the root cause for all the fears harbored within. Borrowing an alien nature, even though it sounds noble (e.g. non-violence), cannot resolve this problem. It will add new conflicts generated from the ignorance regarding the newly solicited value. It is like taking a well-named medicine for a problem that is never diagnosed in the first place. Imbibing non-violence without appreciating the violence within can be the most violent act one could possibly turn into … violence suppressed within by force ticks like a time bomb … erodes the individual from within … increasing one's suffering exponentially within. Suffering within for whatsoever reason is THE ONLY SIN that is accounted in our scriptures. Symptomatic treatment for superficial suppression of the miseries is not an acceptable remedy as the seeds of miseries are left healthy which would ensure the miseries to eventually resurface stronger. The epics depict the removal of the root causes of the suffering as such. The wars of Ramayana and Mahabharata are the nerve-wracking conflicts an individual is engaged within to establish oneself in the peace within. All the violators – be it intrinsic or extrinsic or both – have to be faced, fought with and eliminated with an absolute resolve to establish in the non-violence within. Once established within, it exuberates on its own – no additional practice is required. One can never " acquire " non-violence by preaching – who-so-ever preaches and who-so-ever listens. It is revealed only in those who take initiative to seek the same within with clarity and resolve. If you want to see The God in the characters of Rama, Krishna, etc. … my friend, you have to change your outlook completely and understand what is meant by violence, non-violence, and the god ... also you will have to re-read our epics in a totally different perspective to see its relevance to your self-cleansing and god-realization process. Let me just throw a stone at you from this perspective ... " Non-Violenece " IS THE ONLY REASON why " The God " had to " kill " the so-called " evil elements " in our stories! ... All the words/phrases under quotes need to be examined at their roots … Please think about it. Respects. Naga Narayana. Dear Iyer saheb If rats could invent God, it'd be a super rat. If cats could invent one, it'd be a super cat. We humans created our own Gods. Now, the difference between Indian religionists and the rest of the religions is that our ancestors, particularly the Gurus and saints, endowed the Gods with human failings. Others created Gods...the revealed person! Like the Marxists believe, they truly believe that Marx was revealed, perhaps the only one after Muhammad. That is why their language, diction, imagery, perception, consciousness, the very being is so devoted to that icon. Wish they could create a Mecca...if not in a deserted, palm fringed island, at least in the North Pole. Sincerely Arun Shrivastava ------------------------------ -- PRIOR POSTING Namaskar to all, We have talked of Dharma to defend and punish after peaceful efforts. Shatriya dharma also seems to be pointing to anger, fear and weakness. Good over bad and GOD over Rakshas, fight is going on for ever. We could not control our selfish desire. Example of Duryodhana as the Eldest and Ravan fulfilling his Rakshah dharma shows their being true to their Dharma. Killing of Bali, Ravan, Duryodhana and other ashura predominantly show misbehaiviour towards Women the Mother. In this world of patriachial society Mother is related to Birth and Death. Out great Mother Earth, Motherland and our own Mother are object of selfless service and we can't repay back. We have always used and enjoyed the benevolence but could not return back, which is also a form of Violence. Due to this violence we are destroying ourselves as Earth will by the global warming. Mahabharat & Ramayan are examples of increasing negativeness which ended in perishing of their Family. The Yadav and Sita here and middle west showed the relatives of Mohammed eliminted. The apostles of Jesus spread the word of Love. But christianity again has continued the act of punishing without waiting for the Day of judgement. 'Violence in any form results in more violence which eats ourself', this is to be told to our children. Humans as Intellectual leaders should be settled by debate and not follow the jungle rule to prove their maturity and superiority among the living creatures. -- Regards Swapan PURKAYASTHA -------------------------- Soceity – Individual – Non-Violence Any soceity always faces two problems – (1) the invaders looking for opportunites like hawks and vultures to feed upon a weak society; and (2) the schemers within a society to promote their causes beyond their rights geopardising the social integrity. That is the fact. The social health and prosperity depends on the society's integrity and strength. So is for a person – the external invaders in terms of objective attractions and the internal schemers in terms of desires and fears perpetually feed on a gullible individual. They join hands to geopardise internal strength and fracture personal integrity of the individual in the game of survival. One should not mislead a soceity (and an individual) in the name of " non-violence " or any other high-sounding phrases that may weaken it to become vulnerable to its own doom. It is the primary responsibility of every individual – personally as well as socially. In my opinion, one of the root cause for the milleniums of subjugation of Indian population is the superficially preached, wrongly understood and illusively adapted extra-ordinary concepts such as non-violence. One can disguise under " non-violence " and let the whole population including oneself suffer the violence under a tyrant insider or invader – one may call it non-violence or tolerance; but I call it indifference and even cowardice. Or one may gather strength to face and terminate the tyrant to let the whole population and oneself live in peace – one may call it violence or aggression; but I call it self-assertion and progression. Whenever the body is infested it should be disinfected and whenever it is under attack it should be quarantined off the infectors ... so is a house, and a village, as well as a nation. We can treat the epics such as Ramayana and Mahabharata as either personal saga or social saga or both toward establishing and maintaining social/individual balance of presence against the odds around as well as within. The human characters battling for sustanence of social balance in terms of morale, prosperity and stability would become the variance in natural elements that stirr an individual pcyche in terms of experiences and their traces recorded by the psyche in terms of memories, constantly nurturing clones of desires and fears in the individual in infinitude, battling for sustanance of psychological balance in terms of esteem, fulfillment and confidence. True violence is within an individual (or a soceity) rooted in one's treatment to one's own nature. Suffering is the indicator of the violence. One would feel injured only when one's nature is violated knowingly or unknowingly. Developing desires contrary to one's nature is the root cause for all the fears harbored within. Borrowing an alien nature, even though it sounds noble (e.g. non- violence), cannot resolve this problem. It will add new conflicts generated from the ignorance regarding the newly solicited value. It is like taking a well-named medicine for a problem that is never diagnosed in the first place. Imbibing non-violence without appreciating the violence within can be the most violent act one could possibly turn into … violence suppressed within by force ticks like a time bomb … erodes the individual from within … increasing one's suffering exponentially within. Suffering within for whatsoever reason is THE ONLY SIN that is accounted in our scriptures. Symptomatic treatment for superficial suppression of the miseries is not an acceptable remedy as the seeds of miseries are left healthy which would ensure the miseries to eventually resurface stronger. The epics depict the removal of the root causes of the suffering as such. The wars of Ramayana and Mahabharata are the nerve-wracking conflicts an individual is engaged within to establish oneself in the peace within. All the violators – be it intrinsic or extrinsic or both – have to be faced, fought with and eliminated with an absolute resolve to establish in the non-violence within. Once established within, it exuberates on its own – no additional practice is required. One can never " acquire " non-violence by preaching – who-so-ever preaches and who-so-ever listens. It is revealed only in those who take initiative to seek the same within with clarity and resolve. If you want to see The God in the characters of Rama, Krishna, etc. … my friend, you have to change your outlook completely and understand what is meant by violence, non-violence, and the god ... also you will have to re-read our epics in a totally different perspective to see its relevance to your self-cleansing and god- realization process. Let me just throw a stone at you from this perspective ... " Non-Violenece " IS THE ONLY REASON why " The God " had to " kill " the so-called " evil elements " in our stories! ... All the words/phrases under quotes need to be examined at their roots … Please think about it. Respects. Naga Narayana. (to be contd.) -- 3. Violence – Religion – Non-Violence I saw a video clip by a Scandinavian doctoral scholar on the current rage of conversion in India. A school bus with children is made to stop. The children from " Hindu " background are asked to chant names of " Hindu " gods. The driver would not move the bus. Then the children are asked to chant Jesus. The driver moves the bus. The preacher elates to the innocent children how Jesus is great! He would not stop there ... he insists how Hindu gods are useless!! Monotheism is often promoted as the greatest path to God Realization because, it is. But the problem with the preachers is they do not realize that the population is not ready for God Realization when they have no clue what this ONE GOD means. Ignorant acceptance or fearful imposition or greedy marketing of notions of ONE GOD brings in the violence in human mind. Having no clue of what ONE GOD means and unable to drop the idea that what I believe is the greatest, the stubborn mind wages war against anything that questions its identity, its " god " . The very belief of god remains superstition and explodes out as fanatism to prove its non-existent sanity within. Intolerance to anything other than what I believe is the first signs of such fanatism. Then, the preaching mind starts blurting meaningless phrases such as " my god " , " other gods " etc. while actually talking about ONE GOD! Hinduism is not a religion, but a federation of religions with mutual respect – Polytheist for beginners and monotheist for the seekers. Traditionally, The Dharma has three wings – Jaata (personal), Samaaja (social) and Sanaatana (eternal). All " Hindu " religions – be it Aindrism, Aagnism, Praanism, Braamhsim, Vaishnavism, Shaivism, Shaaktism, or any other faith – are based on single agenda: Minimal Violence. Every individual is free to choose " a god " personally. The element of nature that appeals to a person the most is divinized so that a person would not violate his nature as far as possible. Every family will have a family deity that represents the consensus amongst the family members to minimize the mutual violations within the family. Every community would have a community deity representing the communal consensus – again, to minimize the communal violations. Every village would have a deity representing the population's consensus – again to minimize the violations and conflicts within a population. Therefore, every Indian religion is also a consensual federation of beleifs and values. As every individual enjoys the freedom, every other individual is automatically respected – mutual tolerance of beleifs becomes a necessity in such a federation. Thus confrontation and contradiction of beleifs and values are minmized on the very onset of the so called religions in such a system. Having diverse nature is natural amongst the population … so is the polytheism. If an individual has ardent interest in the education, he/she should be free to pursue education worshipping the very process of education. An individual has a chance to attain the ONE GOD only when the personal god (in this case, Saraswati) is appreciated thoroughly. The life has to be appreciated at its depth before one opens mouth on Monotheism. Awareful transcendence of the Jaata and Samaaja Dharmas is a necessity to enter the Sanaatana Dharma – Monotheism. Preaching Monotheism with little or no appreciation of life in depth can only lead to fanatism and violence that we see around the world today. Violence has been adapted against the polytheism in India from ages not understanding its greatness – UNITY IN DIVERSITY through FREEDOM AND TOLERANCE – to propagand the greatness of monotheism(s). The very propoganda becomes a mockery of the monotheism. Please see the paradox in the preaching of monotheism – ONE GOD is the greatest of all. Plurality is already believed before promoting Singularity. The very preaching is violence – violation of the preacher's belief as well as the listners' beliefs! Anything followed with blind belief becomes an identity to an ego that it cannot just let go!! Removal of all violations within is the fundamental purpose of a religion. It is just a stepping stone toward God Realization. It can never be a medium for God Realization in itself. A religion can serve its purpose only when it acknowledges the variance in the levels of appreciation in an individual … only when it understands the diversity in people's understanding of life … only when it attempts to eliminate violations within and across individuals to promote tolerance, harmony and non-violence. Removal of hurdles to such harmony is essential as ignorance always remains the driving force of any soceity in spite of all efforts one could possibly put forward! No preaching could change it. Buddha could not … Mahaaveer could not … Jesus could not … Mohammed could not … Gandhi could not! Working with the inevitable – the ignorance – is the concept of polytheism, The Federation of Values and Beliefs. That is the only way to reduce the violations and hence the violence. The wars of Ramayana and Mahabharata are the wars against all the threats to social and individual harmony, the violators of natural/social/individual balance, and the agressors promoting intolerence and conflicts. These wars have to be kept alive to maintain natural/social/individual balance as such as the threats, violators and aggressors will never stop being around!!! Respects. Naga Narayana. To be contd. … 4. Violence, Non-Violence and God What is violation? Any event that seem to break the boundaries of one's beliefs against one's desire. What is violence? Any violation that injures an individual physically and/or mentally. Violation requires two parties - violator and violatee. A violater has to see an alien entity and its boundary to break the same. A violatee should see an alien entity as well with an exclusive boundary of its own to perceive that the alien is breaking in. The God cannot have any boundary – if one attempts to imagine " a god " with boundaries, the very belief is debatable since (1) the very notion is captive within one's imagination; and (2) there exists an infinitude outside such a captivity! If The God has no boundary how can there be a violater or a violatee? Then, how can there be any violation? What is violence then when no one can tresspass nobody?! All the emotional qualities – positive as well as negative – drop out automatically as an individual starts converging toward The God. If there is not such convergence, the very spiritual process should be treated with suspicion. The very suspicion that Rama or Krishna could be The God on one hand and also to be violent on the other hand is self-contradictory. The relative emotions of a typical human perception of violence and non- violence on an absolute entity is paradoxical. If one perceives the god through projection of any human (or otherwise) perception, it remains a mere notion just like the very perception. Violence and non-violence is in one's perception. As Krishna says in Bhagavad Gita, Na kartritvam na karmaani lokasya srijati prabhuh | Na karamphalasamyogam svabhaavastu pravartate || Whether nature is created or just present, every particle, atom, quark, photon, pulse is just present as is in spite of the apparently perpetual cosmic re-alignement, re-orientation and re- association amongst them. Really speaking, nothing can even modify, let alone violate, anything as such. Therefore, the very notion of violation and hence violence remains oblivious and baseless. Growing out of the perceived violence and transcendence of the notion of non-violence to attain the state of no violence and no non- violence is THE WAR waged in Ramayana and Mahabharata. Acknowledging, appreciating, understanding and realising the life " as is " is the only target of a spiritual seeker. Removal of all the hurdles toward attainment of the same perpetually is all the wars are about. The sacrifice in which the seeker hunts down his possessive, relational and emotional hurdles to drop the same as oblations is all these wars are about. Removal of the core violators within at their roots so that they can never raise again to bring in a preception of violence is all these wars are about. When the characters help the seeker to initiate, sustain and complete the Bramha Yagnya they reveal The God as such. Brahmaarpanam brahmahavih brahmaagnou brahmanaahutam | Brahmaiva tena gantavyam brahmakarma samaadhinam || The violator, the violatee, as well as the violation remain one with The Absolute loosing their distinction as well as presence in the same. The war is to fight all the perceptional hurdles to mitigate the very perceptional insistance to keep the notions of violation, violator and violatee alive. Respects. Naga Narayana - Shree Hari Ram Ram Nagaji, it would be helpful to further clarify, Hinduism and your usage of the word Polytheistic with regards to it, to avoid any misunderstanding/confusion. Gita talk Moderator Thanks for the sincere concern. I understand that. This is the basis of this writing. Many of my " non-Hindu " friends raise this same question with a conviction that Hinduism is Polytheist. Infact, by observing we practice the " religion " gives the same picture frankly. The ultimate God is the same - HAPPINESS. But THAT remains aloof to the intellect that is not ready to attain. There is no point in confusing the intellect when it is not ready. Looking at diversity is its nature. Let it ... let it freely and openly. Then, it is possible that it may one day see the light ... The Absolute nature in the very deity it is worshipping. Once it sees The Absolute there, it can see nothing but The Absolute everywhere. The Absolute is not for everybody, at least to start with. That is the importance of Sagunopaaaana (worship of God with qualities and attributes). Nirgunopaasana (worship of the Absolute/without qualities and attributes) an eventuality. When Sagunopaasana is practiced right, IT WILL TAKE THE UPAASAKA TO NIRGUNA FOR SURE. Polytheism - Saguna Saapeksha Saakaara Daiva - is most natural for any to perceive to start with. If somebody is happy with Nirguna Nirapeksha Niraakaara Brahman ... of course, that is good! Seeking THAT through either " the knowns " or " the unknown " beyond both known and unknown is the primary agenda of either of the Upaasanas. Direct answer to your statement " Hinduism is monotheist " ... I personally agree as my nature is to seek Nirgunopaasana. But, The World also harbors the others ... Dwaitins, Yogins, etc. where there exists a heirarchy even amongst the divinities. I see polytheism everywhere for the simple reason that the perception of every individual is unique and never be the same as anybody else's. Even the very appreciation of the Monotheism will remain diverse in one's mind and speech. Monotheism is a concept to win over our scattered appreciation of life. It looses its very context as soon as a seeker attains The Absolute just like Polytheism drops its context. If you really want me to refer to our Sanaatana Dharma, IT IS THAT which includes Gunas as well as Nirguna as well as everything beyond. We perceive Nirguna as a notion since we perceive Gunas. If we stop perceiving the Gunas as such where can the notion of Nirguna stand?! Thank you very much for the requested clarification. Respects Naga Narayana - PRIOR POSTING Dear Sadhak, " Whenever and wherever there is a decline in Dharma, O descendant of Bharata, and a predominant rise of adharma--at that time I descend Myself.In order to deliver the pious and to annihilate the miscreants, as well as to reestablish the principles of dharma, I advent Myself millennium after millennium " .GitaCh4:7-8 This means the reason behind formless taking form(incarnations) are- 1. to reestablish Dharma in society when there is acute decline in Dharma and rise of adharma 3.To Protect the people of right conduct, who follow Dharma 4. To punish/remove the evil doers Based on this I am writing few points which can help you explain yr CHILD why our God/Goddess are depicted so strong and powerful- 1.God is Almighty----Hindu deities are depicted powerful and extremely strong. If my God is not strong enough to punish and kill the evil doers then how He/She would be able to protect me from dangers, evil doers ? Bhoot pichas nikat nahin avein , Mahaveer jab naam sunavein... (evil doers and ghost etc cannot come near you if they hear the name of Hanumaan) Why? because we all know that Hanumaan is so strong and powerful.When we chant Hanumaan chalisa our fear releases, but can we chant Gandhiji gandhiji to remove our fear ? 2. God is Just---- When I see my God punishing and killing the evil doers, I know He/She will perform justice to me also if I am following the right conduct, my Dharma. 3.God is all Protective/Supreme power- Even a child can believe that my God is able to protect me because they see them so brave, strong, power full equipped with all weapons... And my mind also feel that nothing is impossible when my God is with me, it gives me courage to follow the right conduct even midst of many wrong doers. 4, God is Loving, Kind and forgiving --All Hindu God/Goddess are strong, powerful and kind. Even the sinners can take refuge in them as they all are kind enough to forgive the worst of the sinner. Once someone surrender, they forgive.(remember forgiveness is ornament of brave, strong and powerful. A weak, coward forgiving strong powerful enemy make no sense as the weak has no power to punish the wrong doer.) 5.Establish Dharma---All Hindu deities kill the devils( someone who follow the path of cruelty and adharma) only, so all deities actually removing adharma and establishing dharma only. 6.Characteristic of incarnated God/Goddess is Ideal - when we read the characteristic of any Hindu God/Goddess we come to know that we can learn how to lead our life by following their instructions.If we can pick up just one preaching our entire attitude change, our entire life change. If parents want to prohibit their son from involving into violence, or any kind of adharma, then they must teach them Gita because Gita encourage the kids to follow their own Dharma, Gita teaches them why this anger arise, and why people are so different. Gita teaches them how to concentrate on MY DUTY instead of running behind the whimsical mind. Comparision is certainly not a right approach to teach Dharma to the kids. We need positive approach when we talk to kids specially teenagers. With lots of Love, A sadhika Sadhna Karigar ------------------------------ We all are fighting with so many things from morning till evening daily, right from birth to end of life, it is a struggle and part of life. Hindu Gods are visualised to fight the same way during their course of action, nothing is new , try to understand the same. We are all aspirants of truth, struggling throughout our life for attaining smaller to bigger truth and purifying our actions, if it is not so we shall remain glorifying our outer not the inner self. God Bless and illumine our hearts with love and nobility. Hari Motwani ------------------------------- Hare Krishna, All glories to Srila Prabhupada & Vaishnavas. Pranams to you and all readers in this forum. The question presented here by Shri Iyer G. A. " Why Hindu Gods are depicted to be showing violence (killing or annihilating evil physically)? It's a very good and a logical question from the mundane perspective. In order to understand the answer I would like to present an explanation based on Bhakti Vedantic philosophy. Arjuna also propagated the philosophy of non-violence on the battle field of Kurukshetra. We find a very interesting, convincing and logical dialogue from the mundane perspective in the first chapter of the Bhagvat Gita. (Verses 29 to 46). In the above context I would like to draw attention verses 36, 37, 38 quoted below: papam eva´srayed asman hatvaitan atatayinaḠtasman narha vayam hantum dhartaraá¹sá¹ran sa-bandhavan sva-janam hi katham hatva sukhinaḠsyama madhava yady apy ete na pa´syanti lobhopahata-cetasaáh¸ kula-ká¹saya-krá¹tam doá¹sam mitra-drohe ca patakam katham na jñeyam asmabhiḠpapad asman nivartitum kula-ká¹£aya-ká¹›tam doá¹£am prapa´syadbhir janardana Sin will overcome us if we slay such aggressors. Therefore it is not proper for us to kill the sons of Dhá¹›taraá¹£á¹ra and our friends. What should we gain, O Kṛṣṇa, husband of the goddess of fortune, and how could we be happy by killing our own kinsmen? O Janardana, although these men, overtaken by greed, see no fault in killing one's family or quarreling with friends, why should we, with knowledge of the sin, engage in these acts? After Arjuna presents such logical statements for not fighting and resigns, he surrenders to Krishna for His guidance, and thus Krishna spoke the Bhagavat Gita starting with straightforward talk: a´socyan anva´socas tvam prajña-vadam´s ca bhaá¹£ase gatasun agatasum´s ca nanu´socanti paṇá¸itaḥ The Blessed Lord said: While speaking learned words, you are mourning for what is not worthy of grief. Those who are wise lament neither for the living nor the dead. Basically He was indicating that Arjuna you are talking like a learned man or a wise man but you are not; because your logic is based on the `bodily' or material concept of Life. The essence of Bhagvat Gita is that you and others that you see are not this material body, but are spirit souls and as far is the soul is concerned it is eternal. The individual soul obtains a material body according to its past karma and in order to get out of the mire of or catch 22 cycle of karma when one must transcend the modes of material nature. This can only be done if one completely surrenders to God/Krishna. Surrendering to Him (God) means following the will of God, His instructions. We can do that by hearing `as it is' from realized Sadhu, Guru & Shastra /Scripture. (The word He spoke and the words spoken about Him). Sometimes even after repeated negotiations with the wrong doers if the path of peace fails then war is eminent. The war in Kurukshetra was a last resort. After more than fair negotiations……..Duryodhana said " I will not give the Pandavas even little space as that would fit on a pin head " . The Supreme Lord Himself negotiated…now is war or violence induced by such a war unfair? It was the desire and the will of God that His devotees the Pandavas get back what rightfully belonged to them; and when ever the will if God is opposed that is `adharma'. Here God specifically indicated His desire. Of course on has to be very careful and not become a radical, fanatical and endanger the society o man kind or creation by either whimsically thinking or interrupting the will of God by self proclamation. That is demoniac. That is why it is imperative to follow the `word' of God `as it is' without interpretations that suits one's sense gratification. And this possible by hearing from realized souls in, a bonafide spiritual master or Guru in disciplic succession/parmapara. A true devotee of the Lord never propagates violence when it comes to insults or injustice upon the self. Lord Jesus Christ tolerated all that was inflicted on him but for the good of others was not afraid to be what appears to be act of violence in the Temple of Jerusalem, Herod's Temple, at which the courtyard is described as being filled with livestock and the tables of the money changers, who changed the standard Greek and Roman money for Jewish and Tyrian money, which were the only coinage that could be used in Temple ceremonies. According to the Gospels, Jesus took offense to this (extorting profit from the exchange of monies), and so, creating a whip from some cords, drives out the livestock, scatters the coins of the money changers, and turns over their tables, and those of the people selling doves. So what to talk about God Himself, who takes great offense when His devotees or innocent are tortured by the injustice of the demoniac. This material world is described by the Vedic scriptures as `kuntha jagat'. Kuntha means anxiety, the part of His creation where there is `NO ANXIETY' is known as Vaikunth. The spiritual world, where there is no anxiety. No anxiety caused by birth, death old age or disease. Krishna says that this world is `dukhalayam ashahvatam' meaning this material world is temporary and full of miseries. One of the categories of miseries is the Adhibhautika klesh miseries that inflicted by others (violence). We cannot find or expect Utopia in this material world. There always exists atheistic class of `demoniac beings' that will inflict pain on even the religious, pious, faithful devotees of the Lord. In order to check that, God either makes someone an instrument (example Arjuna) or He Himself descends in various forms, incarnations Avtaras to Mitigate /eradicate/ annihilate the miscreants according to time, place and circumstances. Bhagvat Gita Chapter 4:7-8 yada yada hi dharmasya glanir bhavati bharata abhyutthanam adharmasya tadatmanam sá¹›jamy ahamparitraṇaya sadhunam vina´saya ca duá¹£ká¹›tam dharma- samsthapanarthaya sambhavami yuge yuge Whenever and wherever there is a decline in religious practice, O descendant of Bharata, and a predominant rise of irreligion—at that time I descend Myself. In order to deliver the pious and to annihilate the miscreants, as well as to reestablish the principles of religion, I advent Myself millennium after millennium. Now there are many categories of the incarnations of God. The Brahma Samhita says `Advaitam Achutam, anandi rupam' meaning there is none second to the Lord (Advaitam), He is infallible- never influenced by the illusory energy or Maya (Achutam), and He has unlimited forms /incarnations (anadi rupam). When the Lord creates He has incarnates as `Guna avatars', when he descends Himself for annihilating the demoniac, for pleasure of devotees and leaves mankind His Deity form, sends his Messengers, and Holy scriptures it is His `Kripa Lila' or Merciful pastimes. So depending on time, place and circumstances during this endless cycle of material creation He descends in different forms to enact transcendental pastimes whether it is the killing of Kamsa, Ravana, Hairanyakashipu or propagating non-violence in His incarnation of Lord Buddha or as a devotee of the Lord opening the reservoir of Love for God as Chaitanya Mahaprabhu. Whether the Lord embraces someone, kicks someone or even kills someone it is all on TRANSCENDENTAL PLATFORM. For example all demons killed by the Lord (regardless of which demon he killed in which incarnation), and those killed in His presence in battle of Kurukshetra attained a spiritual destination. So there is benefit for those killed by the Lord. One great Vaishnava Acharya Srila Bhakti Vinode Thakore in poem compiled by him writes " asura shakala pailo charana vinode thalilo boshi……Gopinath mama nivedana shuno " meaning: O Lord Gopinath [please here my fervent prayer, so many demons have wound up getting your mercy by the touch of Your lotus feet (example: Krishna kicked Kamsa again and again before killing him, Krishna danced on the hood of Kaliya Naag until Kaliya spat blood) but Vinode (Thakur Bhakti Vinode) is still is tired and waiting for your mercy. The Supreme Lord is a Transcendental Autocrat. Whatever He does it is for the supreme benefit of all and it gives Him Pleasure too weather stealing (stealing butter from gopis for the pleasure of gopis) or even when He brakes His promise. (He promised he would never participate in the battle of Kurukshetra....but He broke His promise by charging towards Bhisma with a chariot wheel when Bhishma almost killed Arjuna. Krishna says in the Bhagavat Gita " Pratijanati kaunteya, na me bhakta pranashyat' ` O Son of Kunti (Arjuna) please declare that My devotee will never perish'. He asks His devotee to declare, He could have very well said: " I declare that My devotee will never perish " , but instead He asks Arjuna to do so ……..why is that? The Acharyas comment that sometimes the Lord is known to break His promises for the sake of His devotees but He will never break a promise that His devotee has made! Such Love is the pinnacle of the loving exchange and reciprocation of the Lord & His devotee. This is something that we should never forget. No society can exist with Law and order. We have the Police department, jails courts etc that punish or even induce killing (capital punishment) on criminals who are a danger to the society. So it should not be surprising that Lord who descends in His various incarnations kills various demons. His instruments are powerful enough to do His will, but when He personally descends he also gives immense pleasure to His devotees and that is the main reason for enacting many different lilas or pastimes. I must express my gratitude to Srila Prabhupada and all devotees for imparting these transcendental teachings to whom I am eternally indebted towards. I hope I was able to answer your question. One excellent reference book that I strongly recommend is : `BHAGAVAT GITA AS IT IS, by A.C. Bhativedanta Swami Prabhupada. It will make your life sublime. Haribol Satchitananda Dasa -- PRIOR POSTING PS: This is a burning question that has been misused from centuries against Indian Faiths. I would like to address this in detail. I request the moderators to allow me to do so. Thanks. Naga. Violence in Epics Any scripture can be studied from social perspective or from spiritual perspective. Once, a scripture is examined from social perspective, all characters ought to be human be it Rama or Krishna or Abraham or Zeus or Achilles. After all, these characters are visualized by humans, may be enlightened, yet humans. Therefore, the actions performed by these characters need to be obsorbed with an acute circumstantial social awareness without jumping into conclusions out of context. Hanuman tells Bhima when requested to help Pandavas in the anticipated Mahabharata war, " I belong to an erstwhile value system. Hence, I am not entitled to wage your war. " The author, Veda Vyasa, emphasises on many occasions the social boundaries within which every social norm has to be examined carefully. I suggest you to read the epics of Mahabharata and Ramayana again carefully before answering your son. It is a better idea to encourage him to study the same himself before criticizing them. Ravana has abducted Sita, wife of Rama. A common man would boil in rage to kill such a person instantly. Rama had the capability to destroy Ravan. Yet, Rama sends his representation to Ravana till the last moment to avert the war and to avoid killing of anyone. On the other hand, Ravana never regrets his actions. He interprets Rama's good will as weakness and believes that the weak ones are born only to suffer from the wrath of the strong ones like himself. The goodness is often misunderstood with weakness. He shows no interest in saving any lives as such! Also, when Rama sends Hanuman to find Sita, he requests Hanuman to understand first what Sita wants. Sita was already about to suicide notwithstanding the violence attempted against her. Thanks to Vedavati's curse and Mandodari's wisdom, Ravana could not dare violating her physically. Yet, she was literally tortured psychologically. When Hanuman reveals his identity, the first thing she reminds Rama is to liberate her from the situation at the earliest. She even puts a timeline for the action lest she would kill herself. A husband is violated and wants his wife back. He is wise enough to ensure that his wife wants the same. He is human enough to request and warn the violator. The violator is insensitive to honor others in the first place and refuses to do so even after a series of reminders and warnings even from his own brothers and wife. Is it not obvious that such characters should be removed from the society for the sake of social welfare? Same case in Mahabharata. The peace-loving Yudhishthira wages everything - kingdom, his brothers, his wife and himself - to evade a war. They accept banishment. Krishna himself pleads the Kauravas for peace. He even offers on his own that he will convince the Pandavas even if they are given just five villages - not an empire, not a kingdom, not even a province ... just five villages. Again, the violators refuse to acknowledge and honor the requests made. On contrary, they mock the peace mongers as impotents. Did they leave any choice but to be removed? Kamsa, Krishna's uncle, had murdered many new borns driven by his baseless paranoia. He had imprisoned his own sister and her husband for life. He had thrown his own father into dungeons for power. He unleashed wrath on poor villagers just for a fear of a child killing him. He drew his death nearer and nearer thanks to his own paranoia. If people were happy, why would they send Akrura to plead Krishna and Balarama to kill their own king? If they were not convinced, why would Krishna and Balarama consider killing their own uncle? If you read Bhagavata carefully, the brothers never strike on Kamsa on their own. Attempts were made to murder them at every step. Did Kamsa leave any room for his own survival? Did he leave any other way other than killing him to rescue the people? In all cases, who killed whom. Even from social perspective, Ravana, Kamsa, Duryodhana etc. had already killed themselves with their deeds by violating every human around who just wanted them dead. They just needed a power to depend upon. Rama and Krishna happened to be those. Respects. Naga Narayana. To be contd. … -- Dear Sadaks, If a doctor does operation and patient dies for some reason. Do you blame the doctor? If a judge setences a criminal to be hanged until death, do you tell judge commited murder? Here the doctor intention to save the patient. judge intention was to punish, not to murder. But if a man kills another man for gains/vengence is called murder. But if Hindu Gods kills very bad person after giving long rope, it is called in Hinduism " Vadham " , may mean termination. Like one`s leg gets affected by diabetes, the leg is cut off. Here Asuras (Very bad people) are affected by total mind corruption. There are warned now and then which can also be known from puranas. Only ultimately God terminates. In Christianity- there is a thing known as Judgement Day. Please ask Christians what it is. When Moses went 40 days on hills for prayer, leaving hundreds of peoples at the foothills, the people lost faith in GOD and they started drinking wine, made forms of eagle/animals as Gods, behaving like animals, any woman with any man, Moses came down with 10 Commandments. But all laughed at him. Result Gods in heaven says Bible, killed almost all. Even now due imbalance of Dharma, earthquake/Tsunami (Pralaya) takes place killing people. Jai Sri Krishna baiya sathyanarayan -- Narain Narain My question is to Vineet Sarvottam. Sir, if that scorpion comes into your house, then what will you do ? Pls check up with Papa and come back. It is important question. I love this father/son relationship/asking questions and wise councelling.. Lallubhai Chirimar - dear mr iyer First we have to study the Vedas, then Upanishads, Brahmanas, Aranyakas, Siksha, Nirukta, Chhandas, then the 18 Mahapuranas, 18 upa-puranas, then the Ithihaasaas Mahabharat and Ramayana etc. This is the series of study prescribed. From this it is clear that Vedas are the first to study, i.e. Lower primary, then the next upper primary, then high school, then plus 2, then degree and finally the ithihaasaas which are to be studied for PG. Our problem is what is to be studied in PG, we study in KG or lower primary. The root of man is his head and his leg portion is the head actually. The growth starts from the head portion once it is formed as a unicellular organ in the uterus. (Oordhwamoolamadhassakha...... bhagawat gita). This means now we are standing upward down position (on the reverse.) Therefore all our actions are on the reverse. So to hear something from other Dharmas like Christian or Islam or any other and think in that direction, is not of Sanathana Dharma. It has no equivalence in the world, rather, all other dharmas are born out of it only. The modern education system is teaching only of the Drishyas, means, object based (Dravyaadhishtita). Shabda, Sparsa, Roopa, Rasa, Gandha, these are only taught and studied. There is no teaching of the tought. Means, before I start studying a matter or an object which is outside me, I should first study about myself. Dear Mr Iyer, you may kindly start studying yourself. Do not think of Devataas. Devataas and men are having equally good and bad qualities. The one who is able to do MANANA he is man. No that those having two legs fitted on the stomac are men.... No never. Start asking yourself, who 'am I ? From where I came., Where I have to go/reach... What for I am sent here.. Who has sent me ? With whose ability my eyes are able to see, with whose inspiration I am being led to do the innumerable doings (karmaas), with whose wish my ears are able to hear... Just because I have two eyes, I cannot see. Just because I have two ears, I cannot hear. Just because I have tongue I cannot talk... Then what is that power which orders my these senses (INDRIYAAS) to do karma. That chaitanya swaroopa is within you covered by all the (bad) smskaaraas bought forward throug out the innumerable birth and death. This cover one has to remove or (dis- cover) then the original will shine. One reaches a stage of no.... nothing. regards vijayan kiliyil -- Dear Iyer ji namaskar Without assessing the powers of the opponent the survival is not possible. It is upto an individual which path to lead. For the benifit of mankind if voilence is utilised is a sin too but there are methods of prayashchitas too. For the welfare of mankind you have to access whom you are dealing with a most powerful demon or an ordinary person. If you have to deal with a terrorist you need to use arms and even kill him if he is a dire problem. You should explain your son simply the role of a police man/ army gaurding the nations use voilence to combat terror. In sprtuality there are various types of dealing with sinners for some the killing of demons like Ravana, Kansa and other mighty powerful ones God has to create a counter programme that could eliminate the EVIL intensions of Adharmi individuls and on the other hand where you have to deal with the common man you have to guide vast population to follow a faith and bring people on a common platform to attain harmony and peace. No incarnation can be compared with each other. Jesus the son of God fufiled a mission and blessed the world with his guidance and a noble thought but people got stuck in Churchanity instead. Mulsims received Holy Koran but today fanaticism knew no limits through its powerful followers. Hindus have a vast tresure of knowledge but most of them are busy in caste based practices and the entire world is on one side struglling for everything to achieve things through easy methods. There is no easy way to attain goals. One who has created a room for voilence gets voilence and one who deservs to be dealt with a non voilent ways get the same way and let this to be decided by the almighty and let humans do not decide on this as we lack that supreme vision that decides everything for every being present in this world. It is so upto you to follow a path that God deals accordingly for you. So simple if a terrorist bothers a nation authorities counter his actions through like agencies. If there is a person approaching or bothering authorities is dealt through dialogue and pecefully things are settled. To get convinced for the actions of incarnations you have to study the related scriptures to realise the truth. One can not be greater than other just by making a foolish assesment that one has used voilence and another has used non voilent tactic to attain something. You need to know the missions of each incarnation and at the end you will find that all had a different missions and people with different powers to deal with. If we are dealing with a rustler we must know that one is to be defeated with same trade. IF one us a poor man one has to deal with him in the simple fashion. A poor man can not be dealt with voilence. Judge the situations of both the eras you will and can satisfy your curious son. Even study voilence and non voilence in real terms. When you eat something you fulfil your need to support/ maintain your physical state. Will you stop eating just because one day you came to know that eating too in a way leads one to act via voilent means. Do not you cut plants, kill animals and while eating eat several unseen things? All the incarnations acted as per their respective TIME and requirements. One who had to use weapons used them perfectly and one who had to use compassion and love used it the brilliant way. It is upto the people for whom these greats are born as to how they deal with them. That is why incarnations acted differently but all established superiority of Dharma the truth over Evil on this globe. With regards Love and knowledge! Dalip Langoo -- 1. Hindu gods are not to be understood in the same way as the judaic / greek gods. they are manifestations of the self and relate to our own psychological processes. this has been understood recently in the west as archetypes of the self and forms part of CG jungs analytical psychology. 2. Though Hindu gods always seem to be involved in wars (conflict is a better term) hindus are generally characterised as being non-violent and gandhi is one example of this. most international violence and acts of terrorism these days are related to the middleeast the home of judaism, christianity and islam, not to hinduism, buddhism, jainism, sikhism, taoism or any other pagan tradition please read 'the god delusion' by richard dawkins Ravi Bakhsi -------------------------------- Nevertheless, in an age when artistic depiction is misused for anti- Hindu propaganda as mentioned, Hindus have to reflect and ask whether such artistic depiction is doing harm to how their faith/culture is being perceived by others and by their youth, and whether we should advise against such depictions. It is defensive and slavish mentality that Hindus are falling prey to the mechanisations of others. When one believe in one god, can there be different ones ? How Hindus or somebody else want to depict their Gods is their choice. Hindus dont have to feel sorry about making pictures of their Gods. It is none one else's concern. Sampuran sINGH - PRIOR POSTING Dear Shri Iyer: Namaskaram with respects. Hindu concept of Dharma, according to my feeble understanding, makes a distinction between violence required by one's duties, and violence done mindlessly or to seek pleasure. When a king punishes a criminal, it is done to prevent further crime, and is therefore not himsa. The distinction between himsa and ahimsa is very nicely explained in Mahabharat at several places. To my mind, the present confusion is due to advocacy of extreme ahimsa by Gandhi ji. This led to a mixing of personal dharma of an ordinary citizen with that of raj dharma of the state and the king. Gandhi ji's interpretation of ahimsa is valid only in satyuga. How would you deal with Somalian pirates by using ahimsa? Gandhiji's ahimsa itself succeeded perhaps only once – against the British. It failed against others. Further, while Hindu gods are shown armed to the teeth, Hindus themselves have remained relatively peace oriented. In other systems, the Gods have been depicted as peaceful, but the followers have been very violent. Therefore, my view is that the symbolic arming of Hindu gods is aspirational (as is the peaceful depiction in other systems), as a means to encourage Hindus to be a little more war-like. Secondly, the violence by the Hindu deities has almost always been in response to the needs of the people, and not out of spite or anger. Hope this is useful, Sanjay Agarawal - Here in the UK, we have been considering this issue for some time. During the last 2 to 3 years, we have had Christian priests telling us that Hindu faith and its gods are violent and preach violence – `look at the pictures of your gods!', they say. The letter from Shree G A Iyer thus rang de ja vu-bells for me. 1. The paintings and other depictions of Hindu divinities are the work of artists who have enjoyed, and continue to enjoy, the freedom of artistic expression their faith community has traditionally granted them. Nowhere in the scriptures is it decreed that we have to paint pictures of gods/goddesses nor that we have to show gods/goddesses carrying weapons. But to-date no one has questioned why we undertake such depictions. 2. Islam forbids artistic expressions of anything divine, or of Muhammed. Christians actively depict Christ, but only in a peaceful/suffering pose. 3. If we bear in mind that what we are being told today through revised editions and mis-translations of scriptures of faiths is somewhat different from the original scriptures, the artistic stereotyping may not necessarily correspond to the actual `life- history' of the concerned figures and their teachings. 4. Christians believe that Christ was the son of God, but he was unable to stop injustice and cruelty and gave his life in the process. That is their belief. Hindus believe in incarnation of the divine who uses supernatural powers as a last resort to destroy evil. This is not to be equated with the concept of `violence' in the ordinary human terms. Once the order is restored and the righteous victims of evil are liberated from the tyranny of the evil-doer, the avatar no longer resorts to the so-called `violence' and returns to the normal benevolent peaceful form. Our scriptures describe God as the source of bliss and auspiciousness, the avatar coming to protect devotees, to restore righteousness, and order to nature and cosmos when such is threatened. 5. Faiths should be judged i) on the basis not of propaganda but on what is actually written in their scriptures, and ii) on the actions of the faith communities. Contrast Hindus [and their record of non- aggression against other countries and against other faiths – even of giving sanctuary to those faiths fleeing persecution elsewhere – Jews, Parsees, Assyrian Christians], with the followers of other faiths who have acted to decimate other faith-based civilisations and committed genocides in India, Americas, Australia, etc. etc., almost succeeding in wiping out various civilisations and races. Nevertheless, in an age when artistic depiction is misused for anti- Hindu propaganda as mentioned, Hindus have to reflect and ask whether such artistic depiction is doing harm to how their faith/culture is being perceived by others and by their youth, and whether we should advise against such depictions. Unfortunately this is easier said than done. How do you persuade those who make money out of this industry to cease such activities? Time to reflect. Girdhari - Namaste Sadhakas.. Sumangal Suprabhat... As per my belief in our hindu religion, there is only one God " Parmatma " . All the names you noted like Shri Rama, Krishna, Durga etc. are its " Ansha " who took birth as Human being to taught us about " Dharma " & to spread " Peace & Love " . Param Parmatma created this beautiful Earth/Shrushti for us. He is controlling us. If someone is not following his 'Rules of life' and troubling others. He / she must get punished for others well-being & to keep Peace in the world. Example : If you have a box of fruits & one of them get spoiled what you will do..?? You will remove that spoiled fruit so that other fruits will remain good otherwise that one fruit will spoil others. Thanks Satish Pawaskar Keep Smiling Always ;-) India ------------------------------ God is suddha, buddha, muktha swaroopa. For killing somebody, one has to get angry. (krodha) God does not get krodha. (If it becomes angry, none of us will be thre.) To kill somebody, you have to get angry. Only, we become angry and therefore we cannot be God. Krodha is the resultant of Kaama (Aasakthi). When you slap your son, does he start praising you...? does he get Aananda. Rama never killed Ravana. Ravana is described as Moha (Aasakthi). Rama killed only the Aasakthi which was there in Ravana. The praisings of Ravana is well clearly written. Once some body goes thru it, one can understand that Rama never killed Ranava but the God gave him the Moksha. regards vijayan kiliyil ----------------------------- Hindu Gods demonstrate ;- Nip the evil in the bud. They never lose patience.the annhilation of the evil is done after many many chances for abondoning the violence against innocent are provided to the asuras (demons), who usually ignore these. Regards Shiban Raina ------------------------------ Dear Shri Iyer, Please refer to your mail of November 10/11. You say that you are a senior citizen and also a staunch Hindu, but in my eyers, you seem to be utterly confused about the basic Hindu faith. Unfortunately, most of the modern educated Hindus suffer from this confusion according to me. Resultantly, the upcoming Hindu generation is alsmost uprooted from their Hindu base. Your question as to why Hindu Gods are depicted to be showing violence (killing or annihilating evil physically), betrays ignorance of the basic Hindu tenet that Parameshwara or Paramatma (God) is one. Only Devatas and Devis, who have a positive effect on human beings are many. Parents and Gurus too are counted among Devatas, (Matridevo bhava, Pitridevo bhava). Paramatma's creative faculty personified as Brahma has no armament or weapon. Vishnu representing His executive faculty and Rudra (Shiva) representing the assimilation or dissolution faculty alone bear a weapon in one hand whereas the other hand bears a protective gesture. It only symbolises punishment to the evil doer and protection to the righteous ones. The message is concretized in the Geeta, " Paritranayaya sadhunam vinashaya cha dushkritam/ Dharma sansthapanarthaya sambhavami yuge yuge, " (From time to time, I appear on earth in order to protect the righteous ones, destroy the evil doers and to establish the rule of Dharma, i.e., righteousness or rule of law). In the Mahabharatha, (Shanti-parva, chap. 57), Bhishma Pitamah tells Yudhishthir, " The greatest sin of a king is his failure to protect his subjects. He should protect the dharma of all his Varnas. (It means that every citizen should be able to pursue his or her chosen vocation/occupation, education, trade, business, farming, lending services, doing government or private job, without let or hindrance). The king should act like Yamaraj in administering justice and like Kuber in collection of revenue. He should make provision for those who cannot support themselves and should take good care of those who help the destitute " Such lessons of Hindu scriptures have been ignored . Resultantly, they have brought the country to a breaking point. In Raj dharma, the question of violence and non-violence is irrelevant. Yours sincerely, Ram Gopal ------------------------------- -Shree Hari- There has been a lot of mention of various gods killing, in conflict, the Divine Feminine has been mentioned also on this thread. Now, I do not know these ancient Vedic literatures, but have some insights to other bronze age traditions. Emmanuel Vilakovski considered that the various ancient Greek stories of waring gods, was actually the remembrance of ancient astronomic events. I have seen on this thread, Sadhaks inferring that these ancient sagas of warring gods, was the primordial forces at work. Other Sadhaks have in my opinion, correctly pointed out that the Abrahamic traditions are the most warlike, I have an explanation as to why. Here is a quote from the book, 'A shewing of God's Love', (written by an Christian medieval female mystic ). " The mother may fold her child tenderly to her breast , but our tender Mother Jesus, He may homely lead into His blessed Breast....... " (Notice the Feminine/Masculine aspects here ). When I first read this, I thought of, (hard to believe I know), Shakti , Quan Yin , Mother Mary, and Asherah, known also as Elat , the feminine aspect of El, ( The supreme GOD). You see, She has been factored out of the world, (perhaps She is retuning, I pray She is). I ask you. Would She desire her children to kill each other.? The point is Asherah was forced out of the traditions of Israel and Judah, leaving in the minds of those people, Yahweh, without his consort, thus the Divine Feminine, the Nurturer ,was no longer in their hearts, the growth of the Patriarch religion had started. So the god of their tradition became a god of war and and male dominance. The great Swami Vivekananda pointed out the horror of the millions that were killed in the name of that (unbalanced) god . Bede Griffiths regarded a religion without balance as demonic. Sri Krishna pointed out to Arjuna that, he (Arjuna) had no memory of his past lives. Now consider this. If a swami, a doctor, maybe a Sister of Mercy, or any sweet soul., suddenly remembered with great clarity , being a warrior, raising the battle- ax, or sword in brutal warfare , what would they think. A soul can weary of war, did not Lord Krishna point out it was only the flesh and blood that was being destroyed in warfare. Many have said that the external world is a reflection of mankind's inner self. With Respect and Divine Love. Mike Keenor ---------------------------- Respected Sir, It is not the question of God or human being, the central theme is that " a woman is most often linked and the cause of fights / wars " as well as, down fall ! It may appear to be crude, but still there seems to be a connection, am I not correct? Barin Chatterjee ----------------------------- In Short, Hindus believe in the principle so nonviolence that is practical and can be practiced in day to day life. Christians believe in a Utopian nonviolence theory that neither they nor anyone else can practice. To elaborate, I suppose your son is not old enough to introspect and understand. First of all there are no Hindu Gods and Christian god. There is just ONE power that is omnipresent in all the things/beings. And it (I will not call it he or she) is not really non-violence per our definition, else no one ever died, no one got killed and there was no war ever etc. I understand that your son is really referring to the incarnations / perceptions of Gods that Hindus and Christians respectively believe in. First thing that you need to know is per Christians Jesus is not a God. He is the " Son of God " or the Messiah. Per Christians God never incarnated but Hindus do believe that God incarnates and so there is no point in comparing their perception of God to Hindu perception. Mahatma Gandhi's nonviolence was predominantly adopted from Christianity to fight them back on their own turf and with their own weapon. Persecution of nonviolent people by British brought back the memories of persecution of Jesus and his disciples and received extensive coverage and support from rest of the Christian world, forcing British out of India. In India Buddha preached and followed non violence, however, his disciples when they went to China to teach Buddhism they first learned martial arts to protect themselves during the journey. This is how martial art first reached China which they later expanded upon. Nonviolence shouldn't be confused with cowardice. Nonviolence means not hurting others for pleasure and self-fulfillment. However, fighting (and if needed killing) for protecting self and others can not be categorized as Violence. Nonviolence also means giving peace a chance before waging a war. That is why both Ram and Krishna sent a last peace message to Ravan and Duryodhan so the war could be avoided. Anand Awasthi PRIOR POSTING If you have some problem in any part of your body, first you try to cure it, but when it becomes incurable it has to be cut off to prevent rest of the body. World is viraat swaroop (Universal Form) of God. All creatures are parts of it. Things become clear when you think from God's point of view. Thanks Raja Gurdasani - Dear Sadhakas, Namaste! Shashikala Bahenji, right you are: " who can kill who " , as all is immortal/imperishable! I guess Sadhakas are answering in the best possible ways they know, because it is to be explained by a father to a son who is asking such questions as he should. Perhaps it is a giant leap to grasp such concept as immortality, which may not be appreciated at this stage in son's life! My short answer is: " when one inquires into deeper meanings of God, Life, Death, Incarnations, (non)Violence, being Hindu, Hindu Gods etc, one may come upon understanding that many questions like this get answered in the satisfactory way " . Now I would teach my son these things, but I didn't know myself when they were growing up! In my experience the best answer to one's question is the disappearance of question itself in the light of understanding question, as J Krishnamurti used to say " Please see that the answer is in the question " . Namaskar..... Pratap Bhatt ----------------------------- Hari Om 'Violence' is a relative term. Basically in the divine play of God, humans enjoy certain liberties of conduct. There are laws governing the entire creation. Humans have immense powers but identification with the mind and body makes them 'desire' for worldly temporary pleasures. Here they come in conflict with another law- desires can never be fulfilled, you can only renounce them. In order to fulfill the desires, one indulges into violence. 'Gods' in order to keep the creation going 'mete out' the results of deeds in an equally violent manner- as you sow, so shall you reap.. In fact, when they do so, they are liberating the souls from darkness. Hence, it is all 'play' , there is no violence, there is only 'mercy', there is only 'love' emanating from the top. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B -------------------------------- Namaste, Sanatana Dharma is not a simplistic/moralistic philosophy where things/ acts are categorised as eternally good or bad. It is the context that determines whether an act is good or bad. consequently when adharma prevails - the destruction/ killing of the 'asuras' is necessary for greater good. To give you an analogy - a knife might be considered as an instrument for violence but it is also necessary for cutting vegetables etc. The oft quoted verse 'ahimsa paramo dharmah' from the Gita is only half of the entire line which concludes with 'dharma himsa tathaiva cha' - himsa is equally valid when used for dharma. Gods in our tradition perpetrated violence against those forces that prevented Truth / dharma from prevailing and therefore cannot be judged in the same tone as those who commit senseless violence. Hope this helps. Shubhamastu Anuradha Choudry -------------------------------- Many Rishis such as 'Balmiki' were masters of weaponry and yet they opted not to fight because they are Brahmins, not authorized to slay but authorized to teach. The TriDev Brahma, Vishnu and Maheswar are in-charge of this universe and they have to do whatever is good for mankind. Manoj Padhi ------------------------------- fellow sadhakaas, namasteji..There is no escape from birth and death cycles..all our prayers wish peace and happiness..three times...But..if you can't defend yourself with vachaa, love..etc..you have to kill by Mantra or sahastra..even God had to exterminate terror by bad elements. Hari Om Vishnu Dada (Vishnu Patel) -- PRIOR POSTING There is only one God. No Hindu God or Muslim God or Christian God. They are all one and the same. Besides all human beings, irrespective of religion have souls whose ultimate destiny is to merge with God or the Parmatma. So to say this God is violent and the other is not is an exercise in futility. Hari Shanker Deo - Dear Mr. Iyer, Gods created all creatures on earth. A few of them tried to supercede GOD and also tried to destabilise the world. GOD had to ensure that these creatures do not wreak havoc. hence the destruction of evil. Anil Jain - Jai Hanuman Where is the question of some one " killing " another, when everyone is " immortal/imperishable " as a law ? Can any sadhak enlighten me, Jee ? So that I may address this question !! Kindly help, Jee ! Jee !! 'Violence' by 'Gods' ! Raam, Raam, Raam !! Mike Bhaiyya ! Pratap Bhaiyya! Sathyanarainji !! Adrien !! Any one Jee ! But quickly Jee !! Will you come to my rescue with reference to 'self' and 'Gitaji' - Jee! Jee ! ! Your sister is too stunned and anxious by the question, Jee ! Who can kill whom Jee ! What do you say Adrien ? Namaste Jee Jee Jee Shashikala ----------------------------- ----------------------------- 1. Hindu gods are to be understood in the same way as the judaic / greek gods. they are manifestations of the self and relate to our own psychological processes. this has been understtood recently in the west as archetypes of the self and forms part of CG jungs analytical psychology. 2. though Hindu gods always seem to be involved in wars (conflict is a better term) hindus are generally characterised as being non- violent and gandhi is one example of this. Majority of the international violence and acts of terrorism these days are related to the middleeast the home of judaism, christianity and islam, not to hinduism, buddhism, jainism, sikhism, taoism or any other pagan tradition. please read 'the god delusion' by richard dawkins for great understanding. Ravi Bakhsi Dear Mr Iyer, Violence is something that you cannot avoid. Tell me when you eat vegetarian food do you not think that those vegetables and rice and dal and other such food also grew which means they had a life. Which means that the vegetables and rice were alive and were killed for your ultimate consumption. That is violence to a lesser degree. What makes you think that violence does not occur everyday? Even when you breathe you kill millions of bacteria that enter your nose and mouth. Let me put it to you that without a section of the population taking the initiative of killing bad elements in any society, others do not have the luxury of being non-violent. hope this helps Prashanth Thirukkonda - Dear spiritual brothers and sisters, Vedas do not advise just non violence but lay emphasis on Non Violence of the strong. Prakrti- the divine subtle Nature which is our Supreme Mother according to Vedas is extremely strong and powerful but largely peaceful and non violent. She provides a Book of Nature which even blind people and even animals/fishes/birds can read and wants us to follow Rts- Her cosmic laws of necessity for our social, moral and physical order. Like any benevolent and loving mother she remains peaceful and affectioante most of the time but gets extremly violent when we flout her Cosmic Laws of Nature and start spreading social, moral and physical evils. Hindu gods (Ishwaras) are Not God- as there is only One universal God for the entire mankind wise men describe Him with different names. All the Hindu gods/goddesses (Ishwaras/devas/devis) are extremely powerful and strong but like Prakrti merciful, benevolent and always keen to ensure that cosmic Laws of nature (Rta) are observed by all her children who are noble people. Thus Hindu Ishwaras/devas/devis are the greatest followers of Non violence of the Strong but get violent if evil is spread in society, environment is polluted and hydra headed CORRUPTION with Nine Heads over takes virtue, ethics, divine thoughts and social nobilty. Incidentally Mahatma Gandhi never talked of Non Violence in a general way but always talked of Non Violence of the Strong. He wanted people of India to become morally, spiritually and physically strong and then non violent. Non violence of the Weak is self destruction. He has greatly emphasised this point in his Biography " My Experiment With Truth " . None of our gods/godesses become violent for the sake of violence but give a very long rope to evil people to change and behave conforming to Vedic Rta but those non divine people (Avarnas/Vritras) who encourage all actions against Laws of Nature and create social, moral and physics pollution strict action is taken by Hindu Ishwras/devas/devis. with kind regards, Prem Sabhlok -- PRIOR POSTING Shree Hari Ram Ram Shri Iyer Bhaiyya, Tell your son simply that to eradicate evil, one has to engage in violence. If your son understands about a scorpion and his sting, then ask him that if a scorpion comes into the house and is running around to sting someone, what would he do? Sometimes, a question posed against a question, can be a better clarifier, than an answer. So be it ! Vineet Sarvottam -------------------------------- Dear Sadhak, According to the Yajnavalkya Samhita, ahimsa or non-violence is the awareness and practice of non-violence in thought, speech and action. Do we practice Non-violence at that lavel ??? Do we not kill mosquitoes, cockroches and so many other so called " harmful being " according to us? What do you say about - Hang till death, cutting hands of a thief and so many other such so called justice orders? All our Puranas have symbolic meaning, they want us to look deep inside us. The war between good and evil is going on inside us only. Do we not need to " kill " our bad thoughts ? Do we call killing of our bad thoughts/demonic qualities as the act of violence ? Who gives power to kill those bad qualities within ? Ya Devi Sarvabhuteshu Shakti rupen sansthita Namstasye, namstasye, Namstasye namo Nama " I bow to the Divine Mother Who resides within me as Power/Strength " Thus MaaDurga-Goddess of Motherly Love, Mother of sur (Demigods/our good qualities) and Asura(Devils/our bad qualities) alike, cannot be blamed as performing violence. She is washing away the evils of Her sons by purifying them through Her divine weapons, and ultimately merging them all in Her own Divine Love. Similarly Lord Shiva, who drank vemon for the welfare of the entire universe, whose another name is Bhole Baba(Innocent God who pleases easily and bless us without considering our good/bad karmas) can not even think of violence. Read more about Him and you will know how merciful is He. We cannot know about our Gods until we know our own self. The Supreme is seated right into our own Heart. Look within, meditate deeply and know Thy Self. Surrender to Gitaji and go beyond the duality of this world. Krishna says- " I am the goal, the sustainer, the master, the witness, the abode, the refuge and the most dear friend. I am the creation and the annihilation, the basis of everything, the resting place and the eternal seed. " Gitaji Ch 9:18 He is All then who is killing whom ? We are not the body, and suffering is all illusion arising from the Nature. If we want to see peace, love and bliss in the world, we have to " BE " peace, love and bliss. There is no other way. There is no Hindu GOD or Christian God. There is only ONE, and that ONE GOD cannot be understood by debate as He is beyond duality, beyond mind, intellect. God can only be experienced. If your son wants to understand Sanatan Dharma, present him with a Gitaji. Read Gitaji over and over again, contemplate on each stanza. Come back and answer your own question. With lots of Love, A sadhika Sadhna Karigar - Dear Sir, We all need to better understand the Hindu philosophy and its message. First of all we need to understand the meaning of non- violence. Does it mean only physical act of killing or harming? No. any act leading to harm or hurt others through thought, word or deed is Non-violence. A physical act of killing in a war with a pure intension of good of the mankind is again not classified as violence. Unfortunately, this thought also is misunderstood, misinterpreted and misused now a days. When a mother slaps a child it is not called violence. because the act originates out of Love. The stories which you are referring to are from an era when evil could be identified as a person. who in many cases knew what is evil or wrong but could not help act in that influence.. that time to remove the evil was to destroy them. Even if you look at the story of Gods killing... you would find that it was the last resort. Even those 'evil' people were given all the possible chances and opportunities to change. Only when they refused to comply and the suffering of good become unbearable the physical act of annihilation was performed, to reinstate the faith, to restore righteousness. It is high time we realize that spirituality is not for weak. it requires Will of Shankra, courage of Vivekanand. Today good and evil have become seen in every person. hence to destroy the evil path of annihilation of the person is not resorted. In todays time the solution is - Transformation of heart. for this the divine beings use various methods. even allowing themselves to suffer. Lets not misinterpret their divine pure act of grace. We are such people who would not hesistate to crucify Jesus and do nothing to stop and fight against but will be first to feel pity after the act is done. we dont want to self introspect why he was crucified. we are just contented to know that he was crucified for our sins. As if the godly people have the obligation to be crucified while we continue on our unjust ways. if you love Jesus then share his pain by being good and just. be open and understanding, be loving towards all. God has given each one enough strength to fight our own battles. be willing to suffer the punishments for the mistake committed, dont pass it on to god or godly people and expect them to suffer for you. I request you to not use such words " hindu gods lose patience " . this thought itself is full of ignorance. First of all know - There is only one GOD and he is omnipresent, omniscience, and omni-potent. What ever God does is for good of all. Even the physical act of so called violence is for the good. it is for us to understand how, when and why he does what he does. Even to qualify to question god we must first become a humble student. then may be the divine wisdom would fall on us to understand and enjoy the bliss of his grace. sai ram Abhimanyu Kaul Sadaks With birth comes death. Mahatma Gandhi fought with weapons he had i.e. none, but you cannot run a country on that philosophy as India found out with China. We must all defend Dharma. This is the best. A persons duty is to live according to Dharma and to defend it. From Ahimsa paramo dharmaha, Dharma himsa tathaiva cha. This Is the full proper statement. Each person has to follow the work according to his caste and station in life. Kshatriyas job is to defend and fight for dharma. This is amply show in Gita, Ramayan, Mahabharat, in FACT THE ONLY HOLY BOOK WRITTEN ON A BATTLE FIELD IS THE GITA. Non violence is the best Dharma, but to attain it HIMSA (violence) is required to defend this is the message. Jayesh A Patel PRIOR POSTING dear brother loves and best wishes. The creator Himself has said in Geeta that the very purpose of His incarnation in human form is to destroy the wicked, to save the righteous. In fact this seems to be one of the necessary divine rule. Moreover non-violence does not mean not to resist evil. thanks. ck kaul ------------------------------- II SHRI HARI II Respected Shri Iyer Ji, One must understand God or Lord, a Prophet and Saint in their respective capacity. Our Gods and Hindu Dharma do not follow the principle of Violence (Hinsa) and in fact, Violence (Hinsa) has no place in any of Hindu scriptures and character of our Gods and Saints. Our scriptures say " Ahinsa Param Dharmo " (Non-violence is the ultimate (basis) of religion). Life (Leela) of our Gods and Saints show no violence whatsoever. To understand this you must go through our scriptures carefully under the guidance of eminent Sdhakas and participate in the Satsang of our great Saints (Sad Gurus). In Sanatan Dharma, there are mainly five Gods (Panch Devas) and only these Panch Devas are worshipped. Although, there are thirty three crore Devi Devtas and they are all the parts of only Panch Devas. In other religions we do not find Gods but the great Saints who are said to be Sons of Gods and sent by God to spread peace and the teachings of Gods. Our religion spreads over infinite time, you can count the origination and time for the others. First of all it is important to understand Ravna, Bali, Kans and numerous other Asur (Rakshasas). All these Asur were God's devotees (Bhaktas) and following the path of Vair (enmity) Bhakti (devotion for enmity). There are two type of devotees (Bhaktas) first Premi Bhaktas (dveotees who love God) and second the Vairi Bhaktas (devotees who keep enmity with God). Purpose of both devotees is same i.e. attainment of God. Ravna and his brother Kumbh Karan both were Jay and Vijay the Door Men (Dwar Pal) of Lord Vishnu's Vaikuntha lok. One day Sanakadik Rishis were going to meet God Vishnu in the Vaikunthalok and Jay and Vijay the Door Men (Dwar Pal) of Lord's Vaikunthalok stopped them at the door saying that they can not enter Vaikuntha without God Vishnu's permission, which was quite surprising as Rishis and Saints do not require permission to enter any of Divya Lokas. Therefore, Sanakadik Rishis got angry over the attitude of Jay and Vijay the Door Men (Dwar Pal) of Lord Vaikuntha and passed on curse (Shraap) to Jay and Vijay to take birth three times in Asuras (Rakshasas). Frightened by the curse (Shraap), Jay and Vijay fell on the lotus feet of Sanakadik Rishis for mercy (Daya) and Lord Vishnu also requested Sanakadik Rishis to show some compassion and Sanakadik Rishis relaxed their curse (Shraap) and told that though Jay and Vijay will take birth in Asur Kul (Rakshasas, Demons) but Lord Vishnu will take reincarnation (Avtaar) for their welfare (Udhar). And Sanakadik Rishis said this will happen likewise (Tthasthu). Accordingly, Jay and Vijay the Door Men (Dwar Pal) of Lord Vishnu's Vekunthalok, took birth in Asur Kul in Treta Yug and Lord Ram took incarnation (Avtaar) for their well being (Udhar). Ravna and his brother Kumbh Karan along with numerous Asurs (demoniac beings) were killed and each of them went to Satlok. In Dwaapar they took birth as Dantvakra and Shishupal, the associates of Kans, and Lord Krishna took incarnation (Avtaar) for their well being (Udhar). Dantvakra and Shishupal along with so many Asurs were killed by Lord Krishna and each of these Asurs (demoniac ones) went to Lord Krishna's dham (abode). When the Jeev gets Lord's Divya Lok on his death, he is called Badbhagi (great in destiny) as he gets Lord's Divya Lok which the Sadhu, saints, Rishi and sadhakas long for. For each of the Lord's incarnation (Avtaar), there are various reasons (Hetu) and to fulfill each of the reason (Hetu) Lord takes incarnation (Avtaar) for the welfare of Lord's devotees (Bhaktas). Ram Charit Manas states " RAM JANAM KE HETU ANEKA, PARAM VICHITRA EK TE EKA " . You can understand these only by participating in the Satsang and by carefully going through and understanding our holy scriptures like Shreemad Bhagwat, Ram Charit Manas, Shiv Mha Puran, Skand Puran, Vedas, Upnishaidas, Shruty and Samrity granthas and even sidh Chalisa like hanuman Chalisa, Durga Chalisa, Shive Chalisa and so on. Perhaps you do not know about the sacrifice of our great Rishis and Saints and that's why you are quoting the example of Jesus. Our Dadhichi Rishi sacrificed his body to give his bones (Asthiyan) to Indra Dev the king of Devtaas to make Vajra from the Rishi's bones (Asthiyan) for killing Vritasur Asur to save the Srishti from demolition. Sanatan Dharma possesses infinite knowledge of the Infinite Lord. No other religion possesses such a large variety of Holy Scriptures. There are four Vedas, 301 Upnishaidas, 18 Puranas, Vedant and enormous Saint Charitar, Saint Vaani, Guru Vaani etc. It is simply enormous! That's why it is stated in Ram Charit Manas " HARI ANANT HARI KATHA ANANTA , KAHI SUNI BAHU VIDHI SAB SANTA " . The Gatha (Katha) of Ananat Bhagwan, the One whose birth and death is not known to any body, the One who is unborn and do not die and the One who is beyond birth and death is INFINITE (Aseem, Athaha)! How can men like us who are definite, limited in life and strength can know his Katha. Sanatan Dharma is a non-violent religion. Do not be misconceived or misguided. Go to Satsang, read our holy scriptures and then only you will be able to express your true quest (Jigyas) for knowledge. May Bhagwan Shree Hari Har satisfy your doubts! Shubham Astu, RAJINDER MOHAN VOHRA -------------------------- Thank you for forwarding this letter. I believe Krishna never resorted to any violence - he tried to protect non-violence. Krishna never advised Arjuna to kill people or resort to violence. Can you show anywhere in GITA Krishna advising a war? Gods are to protect non-violence and to maintain dharma. They are not Saints. Lovingly Dr.Uday Pai -------------------------- Dear Sir: Perhaps Hindu Gods resort to " violence " so that Hindu people stay peaceful. Only Hinduism can create a Gandhi, as you pointed out, the staunches non-violent person. While other religion's God may not appear to be violent, the people of other religion appear to be more violent than Hindus, as can be observed by events today and by events of History. Viz. Followers of a " peaceful " Jesus initiated the Crusades. So maybe there is an inverse relationship between the behavior of Gods and their followers ?? (Based on my understanding, the old testament of the Christians is full of violence. " Slay the idolators, destroy the idols " , " leave no man, woman, child, animals of the enemy alive " to paraphrase some of the writings.) Also, the violence of the Hindu Gods is not mindless violence. There are some people who only listen to violence. For example, the terrorists who are bombing innocent people in India can only be handled thru like minded treatment. Perhaps, publicly blowing up a terrorist in the same place he planted bombs to kill innocent people is the only language he will listen to. So in that sense I wish Hindus would get more aggressive to seek justice. And Dharma requires this. Dilip Bhagat --------------------------- Hare Ram Hare Krishna Dear Sir, Pranam If your question has arisen out of a thirst to understand the God, then I whole heartedly welcome it and try to put my views as below. However if it has arisen with an intention of malice, then it is time to quit all false books/thoughts leading you to such confusions or debates and concentrate only on the divine Gita - the ultimate guide to reach the one and only God. According to the holy Gita, God is the most superior, the ultimate power, the invincible, and is always victorious. The common sense also confirms this, otherwise anyone can defeat God and he/she can become God. Just as living things are created by God, it is His duty to digest them within Himself and give life to new ones to maintain the balance of this universe. This digestion into Himself has happened in many ways - in the form of moksha to the Rushis who had spent a peaceful life worshipping Him throughout their life, in the form of death to those who approached a violent form of life and in several ways. This had been confirmed by the existence of Lord Krishna, who is the ONE and ONLY GOD in this world and Bhagavad Gita is the proof for it. The portraying of victory of good over evil have been depicted as VIOLENT for common man to understand but it is all part of his MAYA ! And remember it was the choice Jaya and Vijaya made to die in the hands of the God Himself three times as evil doers than to be his devotees and wait for the MOKSHA after 6 rebirths. And why do you focus only at these depictions and see it as a physical violence while there are plenty of instances in puranas where God had been so merciful and loving - mokhas to rushis, life to the dead, etc. I hope my explanation will answer you that God doesn't lose patience and resort to violence. Regarding your reference to Jesus, He was a messiah of peace who suffered and died for the people. A God is there to protect the good from evil. If God cannot protect himself in the hands of evil, how can he protect the good from the evil? From my perspectivie it is illogical to think that someone suffered pain in the past for the sins which will be committed by future generations. It should be the other way round. And the existence of Lord Krishna is the best example of the triumph of God over evil or mere mortals. He killed the evil and he was always victorious. He was so merciful to end his incarnation in the hands of his beloved devotee as per his promise in his previous incarnation as Lord Rama. I hope and pray that you and your son will read the divine Gita with a positive mind-set, as all of us should do, and attain Lord Krishna with our good thoughts and deeds. Hare Ram Hare Krishna SRIKANTH MOHAN KETHU --------------------------- Dear Sadak, The statement of Sri Iyer GA that Bagavan Shiva killed Kameswar. Dear Sir, Vayu Bagavan is wind, Varna Bagavan is Rain and so on. The demi gods are having No specific form. They are Pancha Boothas. Kameswar is not GOD or demi God. Kameswar is symbol of desire. Kama + Easwaran-- means Kama desire-- Easwaran ruler. Kameswaran is ruler of desires. Bagavan Shiva killed Kameswar by HIS 3rd eye. We can also kill desires by our 3rd eye Gyana located between 2 eye brows were thilak is put upon. Again-- Kama never leaves anyone by its nature. But it did not work out in case of Bagavan Shiva. Also purana says that Kameswar was given back the power. This Kameswar was sent by Indra to distrub Bagavan Vishnu while doing Yogic Tapas in Badrinath. Kameswar failed in his attempt and Sri Vishnu gave Menaka a very beautiful looking lady as present to Indra through Kameswar. These puranas have hidden concepts. B.Sathyanarayan --------------------------- Evil can not be fought with platitudes. For example if we stand with folded hands before terrorists then they will gain the upper hand. That is what our ancient books teach us. Our Gods fought evil even in Satyug and we should fight evil in Kaliyug too. That is the lesson for us. Even in Christian countries, they have armies and give death sentences to murderers. Remember Iraq and Afghanistan? Hari Shanker Deo ----------------------------- I don't think there should be so much concern about " Hindu " " Gods " . The word Hindu itself is a misnomer, and should not be used to characterize the Bharatyia philosphical traditions. Most linguists will agree that it started with the " Satem/hatem " divide in the IE languages, and the " hatem " group residing outside the geopolitical context of the subcontinent who corrupted Sindhu into Hindu. Sindhu was a part of the " Mahabharatm " of Krishna and not the whole. The Arabs do mention " Hind-va-Sind " in the 7-8th century chronicles, thereby distinguishing and extending the concept from mere " Sindhu " . But no " Hindu " inscriptions use the term until 15th century. There are also many " Gods " . Vishnu descends as avatar, but Shiva does not. The Gods do not always show fairness in their treatment and this is the reason sometimes they have to justify their actions by introducing " past life karma " , something obviously unverifiable by the majority of the commoners. The Ramayana story as popularly rendered omits certain crucial details from the Balmiki version relevant for this topic, like that of why Ravana had to be invited by Rama to perform the rites of initiation ( " Bodhana " ) of Chandi/Durga - the same rites carried out by the avatar of Vishnu to gain ultimate victory over Ravana. Ravana was the best " Brahmin " available (what happened to " caste " - the same " caste " which has even found its way into the Gita as something whose breakdown by the " women " and others leads to eventual destruction of " civilization " and " dharma " - the Asura clan Ravana, who fights and abducts women like the Kshatryias being a Brahmin!) for even Brahma had omitted Gayatri recitation for one " Sandhya " and was unfit as a " yagnik " (lets not go into the actual reason as to why he could not - as it might throw some lights on possible motivations even in this fountainhead of " Brahmanya " revelation). The " Gods " and the " Asuras " both derived from the same " father " , and to start with they were not even " immortal " . They had to coopt the asura " siblings " to extract " amrita " and then needed Vishnu to cheat them of their legitimate share. The Gods get tempted by the beauty of mortal women, like Ahalya, and seduce or rape them. It becomes convenient then later to invent " bad past Karma " to justify such unfair treatment of humans. In this the common Gods do resemble (and were perhaps in reality just deification of actual humans or modeled on the " aristocracy " of the time) the common historical behaviour of elite ruling class. The real strength of Bharatyia philosophy should be sought in a proper analysis and absorption of the Upanishads, the Gita, and the Mahabharatam - the last two being essentially statements on political society and individual's relation with that of the state and the social group. These have little to do with the " Gods " - Gods have minor roles in the Mahabharatam, the original source of the Gita. Gods are just a reflection of humanity, and should not be given so much importance. The Upanishads give a framework very much in compliance with modern science and logic, as to how humans should continue to explore the world around them and continuously update their knowledge - never to be stationary with one ossified belief without continuous requestioning ( " Charaibeti " ). The Mahabharatam and the Gita, edited out of their obvious later " priestly opportunistic addition " of support of unfair and unauthentic practices like " hereditary and for-life varna " gives the guiding principle for social interaction and the nature of the state - a crucial vision of nationhood embodied in this ideal of Krishna. " Gods " are not the primary messages of these core texts - they are mere additions by interested priests to extract benefits from society without contributing in real terms. " dikgajone " --------------------------- Sir, To my limited mind, there are two types of powers SUR (divine) and AASUR (demoniac). And Ishwara (God) also has to adopt the aasura (demoniac) powers in order to destroy the aasuri (demoniac) aspects in a aasur (demoniac) person. A Sur (Virtuous, Divine person) is always of positive behaviour. This is simplest and easiest way to understand. Ram Ji also killed AASURAs (demoniac men) because He is Ishwara (God), Himself, and does not need extra powers to switch between Sur (Divine) and AAsur (Demoniac) properties to accomplish a task. " apb1942 " ---------------------------- PRIOR POSTING Dear sadaks, First about Human-- Man kills man-Why? Enemity, Greed Etc Etc. Animals kill animals only for food. Hindu God never resort to Violence but terminate extremely Bad people for the betterment of human beings at large. Here the Gods benefit nothing, but they act to save human beings at large. It is depicted in such a manner by some that it looks like violence. Kans is maternal uncle of Sri Krishna. Kans jailed his parents, Devaki and Vasudev. Sri Krishna as child left Mathura, but Kans went on sending asuras (demoniac people) to kill Sri Krishna. Asuras came to Krishna from Mathura, but Krishna never went there to kill. In defense Sri Krishna killed Asuras. The sacred truth behind this killing is giving Mukthi (salvation) to them. When God incarnates and kills, it is divine to die in the hands of Bhagavan. Sri Krishna never killed Jarasand though he waged war several times. Duryodhan was not killed though he tried to rope up Krishna who came as messenger for Pandavas. These people were unfit to die in HIS hands. Several warnings were given to Kans to behave himself and since he failed he was killed. Besides Kans was door keeper at Vaikunth as Jaya/Vijaya. Due to ego there they were cursed by Sanakadhi Munis to be born on earth. Actually Kans after being killed went to Vaikunth. Sri Rama was quietly living in the forest, why should Ravana abduct and carry Mother Sita to Lanka? When Ravana lost war and became alone without arms in his hand, Sri Rama said to Ravana Go today think of your sins and come tomorrow. But Ravana came to wage war again knowing that he will be killed. So also other Gods did. Jesus was born as human acquired Gyana between the age 14 to 30 became saint. Normally saints or Sanyasins are forbidden to any type of killing. They allow other to kill them, as it is their knowledge that body alone is being destroyed, but not the Soul (Athuman). When Jesus rose from death with body of wounds it was astrial body (Non Destructable). His disciple never believed Jesus and tested Jesus' wound on his ribs by sending his pointing finger into the wound. This disciple finger is still not perished and remains an exhibit. Demons with strong powers can be killed by Gods only. Now take Maha Lakshmi who incarnated as Sri Andal in Srivalliputtur, was tought by her God father Sri Pria Alwar the good deeds of Sri Krishna. She fell in love with Krishna and wanted to marry Sri Krishna. She took to 30 days Dhanurmasa Vrath and in presence of Chola king and people she was taken abode of Sri Vishnu who gave Dharshan to all with Sanka, Chakra, four Arms Etc on Garuda. Gods appear (Not Born) looks like being born. Sri Krishna was with 108 occult powers when born. To people it looks as being born. Sri Rama or Sri Krishna opted to be kshatriya / yadava not as Brahmin. Brahmins are forbidden to kill. Sanyasin (ascetics) are tought to give in themselves, when someone strikes them. Like Adi Sankara/Buddha/ Christ. B.Sathyanarayan Some of the Demons / Ill-minded souls are hard to change with preachings alone. They have to be physically removed like weeds, because they go beyond repair and are harmful to mankind. Also these characters and killing by GOD need not be taken in the literal sense. To make common people like us to understand, some of these might have been personified, otherwise it is mostly how to control the inner evils like greed/ ego etc to attain divinity " mvssr75 " ------------------------------- -Shree Hari- Dear Iyer GA, What a blessing you have in a son that wants to debate such things with you and visa versa. A respectful correction.Yahweh(Christian/Judaic God) was involved in wholesale slaughter and genocide. When the hard shell around ones spiritual heart is broken, the taste for violence is lost. I am looking forward to the wise council of the Sadhaks. I think this is a very interesting question. With Respect and Divine Love. Mike Keenor -------------------------------- VIOLENCE is when you apply force UNLAWFULLY, SHOURYA is KARTAVYA (Duty) to restore DHARMA Dear Iyer, Lord krishna himself went to Su(Dhur)yodhana and adviced to give back what belonged to Pandavas. Did they heed? So lord had to KILL them to teach this world that if you try to keep that which does not belong to you, it will be disaster. Lord pardons who ever takes asylum in him, kills who goes against him (Nature). Gandhi policy does not apply to all cases. Can we sit in front of afzal guru fasting like Gandhi and make him repent for his attack on parliament? Please try it and then ask why krishna killed Kamsa. You yourself will take a weapon to restore Dharma if your son is hurt by any anti-social element and when they try to do again and again. Using Shourya is kartavya (duty) and is a part of restoring Dharma (righteousness) and shanti (peace). Violence is not a part of Hindu Gods or any body who protects Mother Land. It is called " shourya " Please note if our people in borders chant Om shanti, then bullets come from other side and may hit your chest. So a protector(God or any king/human being like soldier) has to use force to subdue non-social element to restore the civilizaton, else country will be weak and no place for Dharma. Hindu gods showed this ... to be strong and rise to occasion. Save the Dharma even if you have to kill your own brother. Non-violence should be practised but not at all times. HARI OM TATH SATH shiva Kumar shapur Dear Shri Ayer, I too am an old man, vegetarian and certainly non-violent. But I am a devotee of Durga. It is depicted in various forms including Mahishmardani. Similarly other Hindu Gods too may be shown in benevolent forms like Gyatri, Lord Vishnu or Brahma Even Shiva may be depicted in the dance pose. Dear friend you look inside. You will find a conflict going in all the time. Good ultimately prevails. But it is so because of a fight between the God and the devil. So my suggestion is enjoy the fights and always stand by the righteousness. With best wishes. Shridhar Pant -------------------------------- Shreemanji, There is a small anamoly. You say you are a senior citizen and haven't been able to realise the answer to your question in all these years ????? Is there any difference between Bhartiya (Indian/Hindu) and other Gods ? Read the scriptures with an open mind and NOT blind faith or dislike. It has all got to do with human psychology. You will discover the answer yourself. Pranam Sampuran Singh - GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: 1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify their doubts related to Gitaji shlokas. Therefore, responses which further clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be posted. 2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to substantiate your response. 3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas 4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting sadhaka's time. 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only. 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other organizations. 7. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone number, address etc. 8. Please do not address the response to a particular individual since the message is going to the entire group. 9. Due to the large readership, all responses may not be posted. 10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if content is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the group. 11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use to Sanskrit words only, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit bracketed wherever possible. MODERATOR Ram Ram ------------------------ Post message: Subscribe: - Un: - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 23, 2008 Report Share Posted November 23, 2008 Respected Sirs, I am hindu, a senior citizen, vegetarian and a non-violent loving person. Mahatma Gandhi was the staunchest of non-violent human beings. Though every one, violent and non violent alike would like peace prevail in this world VIOLENCE is happening in this world, knowingly or unknowingly. My question is - Why Hindu Gods are depicted to be showing violence (killing or anihilating evil physically)? eg: Lord Krishna Kills Kamsa, Goddess Durga Kills Pandasura and other Asuras, Lord Shiva Kills Kameswar, Lord Rama Kills Ravana and Bali. Lords of other religions do not appear to follow these paths, no matter the extent of the sufferings one has to undergo. Jesus suffered all along, though he too was believed to have had super natural powers. Kindly enlighten me, in the circumstances, why Hindu Gods loose patience and resort to violent killings to eliminate evil? I have to answer my son who debates with me often. Pranams ! Iyer GA -- NEW POSTING Hari Om I think discussion on this topic is taking epic proportions. Simple Q was why Hindu Gods are depicted to be showing violence ? Answer is that our sight is on violence only. Hindu Gods are also shown as playing flutes, taking care of cows, being merciful, tolerating pains, doing austerities, enduring sufferrings. Iyerji. You may safely tell your son that both evil and good are relative. Basically soul is immortal, imperishable and neither is born nor is dead. There are laws governing this Creation. There is a " Lila " going on. When one constantly plays roles which do not set great examples of righteousness and one misutilises karma generated powers acquired by him, and harrasses kind, tolerating souls- sometimes God/Goddesses " remove " them from the scene, so that humanity at large can live peacefully. That removal process depends on the " karmas " made by the evil conducting person. What do You call that removal process - " violence " or " justice " or " re-establishing dharma " or " releasing innocent people from atrocities " etc etc are terms. Fundamentally evil must be destroyed. Soul gets evilness because of misutilisation of independence accorded to it in this " divine lila " . When some one crosses limits and acquires " super natural " powers and misutises those powers- in order to continue with the creation- Gods/Goddesses mete out justice and remove them from the scene. As simple as that ! There is no need for any extension of this simple. Question. Many of the terms used by fellow sadhaks go beyond my mind also- how son of Mr Iyer will grasp them. There is no point in putting before him pages and pages of thesis. All religions are good. All religions seek peace only. Everywhere both sides viz good and evil are existing. The Supreme is one only. Or we all are that only. No body kills, no body is slain. In this divine lila, ultimately " dharma/truth " prevails. Jai Shree Krishna N.B. Vyas - All the hindu epics have a deeper meaning and they have to be thought upon seriously before the meaning gets revealed. For example, the word Kamsa means kah means who sah means he? He is a monster residing in every one of our hearts shouting who is He (He for God). Its our ahamkara (egoism), Selfishness. Lord Krishna kills that ahamkara (egoism). It has nothing to do with violence. As killing your selfishness brings forth selflessness which is good for the society at large. As you turn into a great man. By the way Krishna also means the all attractiveness that is the ultimate traction. Similarly all Gods and Demons have some other meaning and the violence in all cases is related with killing of the demons i.e. the bad qualities in us and to purify our heart and soul. Think deep to teach and guide your son the right path. Jai Bhagavad Gite! " bbkm1969 " ------------------------------ Hindus was a name given by invaders to all those residing on the other side of the Sindhu river. There is no such thing as Hindus, it is only Sanatana Dharma (eternal laws / guiding principles). You can believe in one God, believe in many Gods or be a non believer, we are still following eternal laws/guiding principles. In fact, Sanatana Dharma (in later years known as Hinduism) is not a religion, it is a way of life. God is someone whom we have never seen. When there is only one God how can we differentiate? Hari Shanker Deo Namaskar ! Dear Mr. Iyer GA As per belief of what I have learnt that Asurs (demoniac ones) were given many vardans (blessings) on account of them doing lot of japa (name repetition) for long time and they had through tapas (austerities) gained lot of powers so that none could kill them. Ravan was a great Shiva bhakt (devotee of Shiva) , but used all his siddhis and supernatural powers for capturing and harassing mother Sita. Because of his intense earlier sadhana (spiritual practices), Shri Ram killed him, there by giving Ravan moksh (liberation). Any one killed by actual hands of an avatar (manifestation of God) gets moksh (liberated). Parabrahma or Ishwar (God) as one calls is all merciful, He realised this child will not change even after many births and continue to torment others, so in His great mercy he removes/so call kills the Asur creating problems, like Ravan by Lord Ram. If Lord Ram had not killed Ravan he would have gone on the same way for many others, more vengence on rishis (ascetics), munis and holy souls. Same is the case of Mahishasur being killed by Durga at a twilight when not day or night and no inside or outside. Lord removes these people never out of vengence but out of mercy for others and the tormentors adharmic (unrighteous) souls, may in normal circumstances may have to take many hundred of births to wipe off this multiple killing karma and be tortured for many years in different regions of hell. Hindu Gods are very loving and benevolent and do not lose patience by any stretch of imagination, they are doing punya (virtues) to very evil souls by saving their repeated few hundred births and deaths due to his very evil karma (actions), by slaying him and giving moksha (liberation) to his/her atma (soul). This way they are freeing normal people and monks/rishis can carry their pooja (prayers), meditation/sadhna (spiritual practices) uninteruptedly. Also realise that another reason for this violence could be to instill fear in hearts of similar evil souls, and chances are some of them might mend their ways and move towards path of dharma (righteousness) and back to God. Also realise an avatar (God's manifestation on earth), takes so called birth only when surroundings are very tamasic (filled with ignorance) to improve worldy society by their example of selflessness. Lord Ram could have easily saved Mother Sita, it was merely his divine play to get Hanuman involved and to get Ravan killed by his hands. Avatars for them just drift from one earthly garment or body to other, they are neither born or die in our worldy sense. They are shinning examples on how we need to be. Avatars are beyond human birth and not born because of any past life karma account, they will to be born to save the world, without any unselfish reasons, 100% dharmic to change the world. If Lord was born in his natural form with so many heads and hands, chances are greedy men may have to earn money put Him in a circus, that is the reason bhagvan takes exactly manav roop (human form), but one must realise just because he looks like an ordinary person, he is not, He is very high spiritually, much more than we can ever realise by our narrow visioned, one track mind. Also need to realise avatars took which form most suitable to their paricular times. Last, but not least one must realise that all paths lead to God if dharmic, some are short and thorny, hair pin bends, one must have courage and talmal to be with God and others are straight but long, depends which one you choose. Each one takes path as per his spiritual level on earth at that point of time . You will recall even prophet Mohamed had to flee from Mecca to Medina for some time. Jews, troubled Jesus to extreme, though born in that community. Zoraster too was troubled constantly by evil persons, as a child thrown in a cave of pack of wolf's which were killed and placed beside. so that mother wolf would attack him, in midst of charging cows, but saved as one cow spread her four limbs and covered the child from stampede from others and only then left. These avtars come with a msg to teach /preach common man as Jesus spoke to fishermen on the bank of a river and made them his disciples, most famous being Peter. Gods dont die because of any karma (actions) but simply merge their atmas (soul) with universal life force at the time decided by them once again. Gratitude at holy charan of Gurudev Shirin --- Sir The answer is simple. There is nothing quite as miraclous as a birth. That which has lived in water for such a long period now suddenly with an instance is able to survive in an atmosphere. The joy it brings to the family born into. Yet this soul has recently just parted in a death. This seems painful. However, this is an illusion. Death is merely an event to bring to life and hope. This is the law of karma. The violence you refer to is illusory, it is the vehicle by which joy arrives. Aryan Gods are weapon clad because some are beyond reasoning. Their weapons demonstrate the reality of life. Veda Shakti! Deeno Sharma --- PRIOR POSTING 2. Soceity – Individual – Non-Violence Any soceity always faces two problems – (1) the invaders looking for opportunites like hawks and vultures to feed upon a weak society; and (2) the schemers within a society to promote their causes beyond their rights geopardising the social integrity. That is the fact. The social health and prosperity depends on the society's integrity and strength. So is for a person – the external invaders in terms of objective attractions and the internal schemers in terms of desires and fears perpetually feed on a gullible individual. They join hands to geopardise internal strength and fracture personal integrity of the individual in the game of survival. One should not mislead a soceity (and an individual) in the name of " non-violence " or any other high-sounding phrases that may weaken it to become vulnerable to its own doom. It is the primary responsibility of every individual – personally as well as socially. In my opinion, one of the root cause for the milleniums of subjugation of Indian population is the superficially preached, wrongly understood and illusively adapted extra-ordinary concepts such as non-violence. One can disguise under " non-violence " and let the whole population including oneself suffer the violence under a tyrant insider or invader – one may call it non-violence or tolerance; but I call it indifference and even cowardice. Or one may gather strength to face and terminate the tyrant to let the whole population and oneself live in peace – one may call it violence or aggression; but I call it self-assertion and progression. Whenever the body is infested it should be disinfected and whenever it is under attack it should be quarantined off the infectors ... so is a house, and a village, as well as a nation. We can treat the epics such as Ramayana and Mahabharata as either personal saga or social saga or both toward establishing and maintaining social/individual balance of presence against the odds around as well as within. The human characters battling for sustanence of social balance in terms of morale, prosperity and stability would become the variance in natural elements that stirr an individual pcyche in terms of experiences and their traces recorded by the psyche in terms of memories, constantly nurturing clones of desires and fears in the individual in infinitude, battling for sustanance of psychological balance in terms of esteem, fulfillment and confidence. True violence is within an individual (or a soceity) rooted in one's treatment to one's own nature. Suffering is the indicator of the violence. One would feel injured only when one's nature is violated knowingly or unknowingly. Developing desires contrary to one's nature is the root cause for all the fears harbored within. Borrowing an alien nature, even though it sounds noble (e.g. non-violence), cannot resolve this problem. It will add new conflicts generated from the ignorance regarding the newly solicited value. It is like taking a well-named medicine for a problem that is never diagnosed in the first place. Imbibing non-violence without appreciating the violence within can be the most violent act one could possibly turn into … violence suppressed within by force ticks like a time bomb … erodes the individual from within … increasing one's suffering exponentially within. Suffering within for whatsoever reason is THE ONLY SIN that is accounted in our scriptures. Symptomatic treatment for superficial suppression of the miseries is not an acceptable remedy as the seeds of miseries are left healthy which would ensure the miseries to eventually resurface stronger. The epics depict the removal of the root causes of the suffering as such. The wars of Ramayana and Mahabharata are the nerve-wracking conflicts an individual is engaged within to establish oneself in the peace within. All the violators – be it intrinsic or extrinsic or both – have to be faced, fought with and eliminated with an absolute resolve to establish in the non-violence within. Once established within, it exuberates on its own – no additional practice is required. One can never " acquire " non-violence by preaching – who-so-ever preaches and who-so-ever listens. It is revealed only in those who take initiative to seek the same within with clarity and resolve. If you want to see The God in the characters of Rama, Krishna, etc. … my friend, you have to change your outlook completely and understand what is meant by violence, non-violence, and the god ... also you will have to re-read our epics in a totally different perspective to see its relevance to your self-cleansing and god-realization process. Let me just throw a stone at you from this perspective ... " Non-Violenece " IS THE ONLY REASON why " The God " had to " kill " the so-called " evil elements " in our stories! ... All the words/phrases under quotes need to be examined at their roots … Please think about it. Respects. Naga Narayana. Dear Iyer saheb If rats could invent God, it'd be a super rat. If cats could invent one, it'd be a super cat. We humans created our own Gods. Now, the difference between Indian religionists and the rest of the religions is that our ancestors, particularly the Gurus and saints, endowed the Gods with human failings. Others created Gods...the revealed person! Like the Marxists believe, they truly believe that Marx was revealed, perhaps the only one after Muhammad. That is why their language, diction, imagery, perception, consciousness, the very being is so devoted to that icon. Wish they could create a Mecca...if not in a deserted, palm fringed island, at least in the North Pole. Sincerely Arun Shrivastava ------------------------------ -- PRIOR POSTING Namaskar to all, We have talked of Dharma to defend and punish after peaceful efforts. Shatriya dharma also seems to be pointing to anger, fear and weakness. Good over bad and GOD over Rakshas, fight is going on for ever. We could not control our selfish desire. Example of Duryodhana as the Eldest and Ravan fulfilling his Rakshah dharma shows their being true to their Dharma. Killing of Bali, Ravan, Duryodhana and other ashura predominantly show misbehaiviour towards Women the Mother. In this world of patriachial society Mother is related to Birth and Death. Out great Mother Earth, Motherland and our own Mother are object of selfless service and we can't repay back. We have always used and enjoyed the benevolence but could not return back, which is also a form of Violence. Due to this violence we are destroying ourselves as Earth will by the global warming. Mahabharat & Ramayan are examples of increasing negativeness which ended in perishing of their Family. The Yadav and Sita here and middle west showed the relatives of Mohammed eliminted. The apostles of Jesus spread the word of Love. But christianity again has continued the act of punishing without waiting for the Day of judgement. 'Violence in any form results in more violence which eats ourself', this is to be told to our children. Humans as Intellectual leaders should be settled by debate and not follow the jungle rule to prove their maturity and superiority among the living creatures. -- Regards Swapan PURKAYASTHA -------------------------- Soceity – Individual – Non-Violence Any soceity always faces two problems – (1) the invaders looking for opportunites like hawks and vultures to feed upon a weak society; and (2) the schemers within a society to promote their causes beyond their rights geopardising the social integrity. That is the fact. The social health and prosperity depends on the society's integrity and strength. So is for a person – the external invaders in terms of objective attractions and the internal schemers in terms of desires and fears perpetually feed on a gullible individual. They join hands to geopardise internal strength and fracture personal integrity of the individual in the game of survival. One should not mislead a soceity (and an individual) in the name of " non-violence " or any other high-sounding phrases that may weaken it to become vulnerable to its own doom. It is the primary responsibility of every individual – personally as well as socially. In my opinion, one of the root cause for the milleniums of subjugation of Indian population is the superficially preached, wrongly understood and illusively adapted extra-ordinary concepts such as non-violence. One can disguise under " non-violence " and let the whole population including oneself suffer the violence under a tyrant insider or invader – one may call it non-violence or tolerance; but I call it indifference and even cowardice. Or one may gather strength to face and terminate the tyrant to let the whole population and oneself live in peace – one may call it violence or aggression; but I call it self-assertion and progression. Whenever the body is infested it should be disinfected and whenever it is under attack it should be quarantined off the infectors ... so is a house, and a village, as well as a nation. We can treat the epics such as Ramayana and Mahabharata as either personal saga or social saga or both toward establishing and maintaining social/individual balance of presence against the odds around as well as within. The human characters battling for sustanence of social balance in terms of morale, prosperity and stability would become the variance in natural elements that stirr an individual pcyche in terms of experiences and their traces recorded by the psyche in terms of memories, constantly nurturing clones of desires and fears in the individual in infinitude, battling for sustanance of psychological balance in terms of esteem, fulfillment and confidence. True violence is within an individual (or a soceity) rooted in one's treatment to one's own nature. Suffering is the indicator of the violence. One would feel injured only when one's nature is violated knowingly or unknowingly. Developing desires contrary to one's nature is the root cause for all the fears harbored within. Borrowing an alien nature, even though it sounds noble (e.g. non- violence), cannot resolve this problem. It will add new conflicts generated from the ignorance regarding the newly solicited value. It is like taking a well-named medicine for a problem that is never diagnosed in the first place. Imbibing non-violence without appreciating the violence within can be the most violent act one could possibly turn into … violence suppressed within by force ticks like a time bomb … erodes the individual from within … increasing one's suffering exponentially within. Suffering within for whatsoever reason is THE ONLY SIN that is accounted in our scriptures. Symptomatic treatment for superficial suppression of the miseries is not an acceptable remedy as the seeds of miseries are left healthy which would ensure the miseries to eventually resurface stronger. The epics depict the removal of the root causes of the suffering as such. The wars of Ramayana and Mahabharata are the nerve-wracking conflicts an individual is engaged within to establish oneself in the peace within. All the violators – be it intrinsic or extrinsic or both – have to be faced, fought with and eliminated with an absolute resolve to establish in the non-violence within. Once established within, it exuberates on its own – no additional practice is required. One can never " acquire " non-violence by preaching – who-so-ever preaches and who-so-ever listens. It is revealed only in those who take initiative to seek the same within with clarity and resolve. If you want to see The God in the characters of Rama, Krishna, etc. … my friend, you have to change your outlook completely and understand what is meant by violence, non-violence, and the god ... also you will have to re-read our epics in a totally different perspective to see its relevance to your self-cleansing and god- realization process. Let me just throw a stone at you from this perspective ... " Non-Violenece " IS THE ONLY REASON why " The God " had to " kill " the so-called " evil elements " in our stories! ... All the words/phrases under quotes need to be examined at their roots … Please think about it. Respects. Naga Narayana. (to be contd.) -- 3. Violence – Religion – Non-Violence I saw a video clip by a Scandinavian doctoral scholar on the current rage of conversion in India. A school bus with children is made to stop. The children from " Hindu " background are asked to chant names of " Hindu " gods. The driver would not move the bus. Then the children are asked to chant Jesus. The driver moves the bus. The preacher elates to the innocent children how Jesus is great! He would not stop there ... he insists how Hindu gods are useless!! Monotheism is often promoted as the greatest path to God Realization because, it is. But the problem with the preachers is they do not realize that the population is not ready for God Realization when they have no clue what this ONE GOD means. Ignorant acceptance or fearful imposition or greedy marketing of notions of ONE GOD brings in the violence in human mind. Having no clue of what ONE GOD means and unable to drop the idea that what I believe is the greatest, the stubborn mind wages war against anything that questions its identity, its " god " . The very belief of god remains superstition and explodes out as fanatism to prove its non-existent sanity within. Intolerance to anything other than what I believe is the first signs of such fanatism. Then, the preaching mind starts blurting meaningless phrases such as " my god " , " other gods " etc. while actually talking about ONE GOD! Hinduism is not a religion, but a federation of religions with mutual respect – Polytheist for beginners and monotheist for the seekers. Traditionally, The Dharma has three wings – Jaata (personal), Samaaja (social) and Sanaatana (eternal). All " Hindu " religions – be it Aindrism, Aagnism, Praanism, Braamhsim, Vaishnavism, Shaivism, Shaaktism, or any other faith – are based on single agenda: Minimal Violence. Every individual is free to choose " a god " personally. The element of nature that appeals to a person the most is divinized so that a person would not violate his nature as far as possible. Every family will have a family deity that represents the consensus amongst the family members to minimize the mutual violations within the family. Every community would have a community deity representing the communal consensus – again, to minimize the communal violations. Every village would have a deity representing the population's consensus – again to minimize the violations and conflicts within a population. Therefore, every Indian religion is also a consensual federation of beleifs and values. As every individual enjoys the freedom, every other individual is automatically respected – mutual tolerance of beleifs becomes a necessity in such a federation. Thus confrontation and contradiction of beleifs and values are minmized on the very onset of the so called religions in such a system. Having diverse nature is natural amongst the population … so is the polytheism. If an individual has ardent interest in the education, he/she should be free to pursue education worshipping the very process of education. An individual has a chance to attain the ONE GOD only when the personal god (in this case, Saraswati) is appreciated thoroughly. The life has to be appreciated at its depth before one opens mouth on Monotheism. Awareful transcendence of the Jaata and Samaaja Dharmas is a necessity to enter the Sanaatana Dharma – Monotheism. Preaching Monotheism with little or no appreciation of life in depth can only lead to fanatism and violence that we see around the world today. Violence has been adapted against the polytheism in India from ages not understanding its greatness – UNITY IN DIVERSITY through FREEDOM AND TOLERANCE – to propagand the greatness of monotheism(s). The very propoganda becomes a mockery of the monotheism. Please see the paradox in the preaching of monotheism – ONE GOD is the greatest of all. Plurality is already believed before promoting Singularity. The very preaching is violence – violation of the preacher's belief as well as the listners' beliefs! Anything followed with blind belief becomes an identity to an ego that it cannot just let go!! Removal of all violations within is the fundamental purpose of a religion. It is just a stepping stone toward God Realization. It can never be a medium for God Realization in itself. A religion can serve its purpose only when it acknowledges the variance in the levels of appreciation in an individual … only when it understands the diversity in people's understanding of life … only when it attempts to eliminate violations within and across individuals to promote tolerance, harmony and non-violence. Removal of hurdles to such harmony is essential as ignorance always remains the driving force of any soceity in spite of all efforts one could possibly put forward! No preaching could change it. Buddha could not … Mahaaveer could not … Jesus could not … Mohammed could not … Gandhi could not! Working with the inevitable – the ignorance – is the concept of polytheism, The Federation of Values and Beliefs. That is the only way to reduce the violations and hence the violence. The wars of Ramayana and Mahabharata are the wars against all the threats to social and individual harmony, the violators of natural/social/individual balance, and the agressors promoting intolerence and conflicts. These wars have to be kept alive to maintain natural/social/individual balance as such as the threats, violators and aggressors will never stop being around!!! Respects. Naga Narayana. To be contd. … 4. Violence, Non-Violence and God What is violation? Any event that seem to break the boundaries of one's beliefs against one's desire. What is violence? Any violation that injures an individual physically and/or mentally. Violation requires two parties - violator and violatee. A violater has to see an alien entity and its boundary to break the same. A violatee should see an alien entity as well with an exclusive boundary of its own to perceive that the alien is breaking in. The God cannot have any boundary – if one attempts to imagine " a god " with boundaries, the very belief is debatable since (1) the very notion is captive within one's imagination; and (2) there exists an infinitude outside such a captivity! If The God has no boundary how can there be a violater or a violatee? Then, how can there be any violation? What is violence then when no one can tresspass nobody?! All the emotional qualities – positive as well as negative – drop out automatically as an individual starts converging toward The God. If there is not such convergence, the very spiritual process should be treated with suspicion. The very suspicion that Rama or Krishna could be The God on one hand and also to be violent on the other hand is self-contradictory. The relative emotions of a typical human perception of violence and non- violence on an absolute entity is paradoxical. If one perceives the god through projection of any human (or otherwise) perception, it remains a mere notion just like the very perception. Violence and non-violence is in one's perception. As Krishna says in Bhagavad Gita, Na kartritvam na karmaani lokasya srijati prabhuh | Na karamphalasamyogam svabhaavastu pravartate || Whether nature is created or just present, every particle, atom, quark, photon, pulse is just present as is in spite of the apparently perpetual cosmic re-alignement, re-orientation and re- association amongst them. Really speaking, nothing can even modify, let alone violate, anything as such. Therefore, the very notion of violation and hence violence remains oblivious and baseless. Growing out of the perceived violence and transcendence of the notion of non-violence to attain the state of no violence and no non- violence is THE WAR waged in Ramayana and Mahabharata. Acknowledging, appreciating, understanding and realising the life " as is " is the only target of a spiritual seeker. Removal of all the hurdles toward attainment of the same perpetually is all the wars are about. The sacrifice in which the seeker hunts down his possessive, relational and emotional hurdles to drop the same as oblations is all these wars are about. Removal of the core violators within at their roots so that they can never raise again to bring in a preception of violence is all these wars are about. When the characters help the seeker to initiate, sustain and complete the Bramha Yagnya they reveal The God as such. Brahmaarpanam brahmahavih brahmaagnou brahmanaahutam | Brahmaiva tena gantavyam brahmakarma samaadhinam || The violator, the violatee, as well as the violation remain one with The Absolute loosing their distinction as well as presence in the same. The war is to fight all the perceptional hurdles to mitigate the very perceptional insistance to keep the notions of violation, violator and violatee alive. Respects. Naga Narayana - Shree Hari Ram Ram Nagaji, it would be helpful to further clarify, Hinduism and your usage of the word Polytheistic with regards to it, to avoid any misunderstanding/confusion. Gita talk Moderator Thanks for the sincere concern. I understand that. This is the basis of this writing. Many of my " non-Hindu " friends raise this same question with a conviction that Hinduism is Polytheist. Infact, by observing we practice the " religion " gives the same picture frankly. The ultimate God is the same - HAPPINESS. But THAT remains aloof to the intellect that is not ready to attain. There is no point in confusing the intellect when it is not ready. Looking at diversity is its nature. Let it ... let it freely and openly. Then, it is possible that it may one day see the light ... The Absolute nature in the very deity it is worshipping. Once it sees The Absolute there, it can see nothing but The Absolute everywhere. The Absolute is not for everybody, at least to start with. That is the importance of Sagunopaaaana (worship of God with qualities and attributes). Nirgunopaasana (worship of the Absolute/without qualities and attributes) an eventuality. When Sagunopaasana is practiced right, IT WILL TAKE THE UPAASAKA TO NIRGUNA FOR SURE. Polytheism - Saguna Saapeksha Saakaara Daiva - is most natural for any to perceive to start with. If somebody is happy with Nirguna Nirapeksha Niraakaara Brahman ... of course, that is good! Seeking THAT through either " the knowns " or " the unknown " beyond both known and unknown is the primary agenda of either of the Upaasanas. Direct answer to your statement " Hinduism is monotheist " ... I personally agree as my nature is to seek Nirgunopaasana. But, The World also harbors the others ... Dwaitins, Yogins, etc. where there exists a heirarchy even amongst the divinities. I see polytheism everywhere for the simple reason that the perception of every individual is unique and never be the same as anybody else's. Even the very appreciation of the Monotheism will remain diverse in one's mind and speech. Monotheism is a concept to win over our scattered appreciation of life. It looses its very context as soon as a seeker attains The Absolute just like Polytheism drops its context. If you really want me to refer to our Sanaatana Dharma, IT IS THAT which includes Gunas as well as Nirguna as well as everything beyond. We perceive Nirguna as a notion since we perceive Gunas. If we stop perceiving the Gunas as such where can the notion of Nirguna stand?! Thank you very much for the requested clarification. Respects Naga Narayana - PRIOR POSTING Dear Sadhak, " Whenever and wherever there is a decline in Dharma, O descendant of Bharata, and a predominant rise of adharma--at that time I descend Myself.In order to deliver the pious and to annihilate the miscreants, as well as to reestablish the principles of dharma, I advent Myself millennium after millennium " .GitaCh4:7-8 This means the reason behind formless taking form(incarnations) are- 1. to reestablish Dharma in society when there is acute decline in Dharma and rise of adharma 3.To Protect the people of right conduct, who follow Dharma 4. To punish/remove the evil doers Based on this I am writing few points which can help you explain yr CHILD why our God/Goddess are depicted so strong and powerful- 1.God is Almighty----Hindu deities are depicted powerful and extremely strong. If my God is not strong enough to punish and kill the evil doers then how He/She would be able to protect me from dangers, evil doers ? Bhoot pichas nikat nahin avein , Mahaveer jab naam sunavein... (evil doers and ghost etc cannot come near you if they hear the name of Hanumaan) Why? because we all know that Hanumaan is so strong and powerful.When we chant Hanumaan chalisa our fear releases, but can we chant Gandhiji gandhiji to remove our fear ? 2. God is Just---- When I see my God punishing and killing the evil doers, I know He/She will perform justice to me also if I am following the right conduct, my Dharma. 3.God is all Protective/Supreme power- Even a child can believe that my God is able to protect me because they see them so brave, strong, power full equipped with all weapons... And my mind also feel that nothing is impossible when my God is with me, it gives me courage to follow the right conduct even midst of many wrong doers. 4, God is Loving, Kind and forgiving --All Hindu God/Goddess are strong, powerful and kind. Even the sinners can take refuge in them as they all are kind enough to forgive the worst of the sinner. Once someone surrender, they forgive.(remember forgiveness is ornament of brave, strong and powerful. A weak, coward forgiving strong powerful enemy make no sense as the weak has no power to punish the wrong doer.) 5.Establish Dharma---All Hindu deities kill the devils( someone who follow the path of cruelty and adharma) only, so all deities actually removing adharma and establishing dharma only. 6.Characteristic of incarnated God/Goddess is Ideal - when we read the characteristic of any Hindu God/Goddess we come to know that we can learn how to lead our life by following their instructions.If we can pick up just one preaching our entire attitude change, our entire life change. If parents want to prohibit their son from involving into violence, or any kind of adharma, then they must teach them Gita because Gita encourage the kids to follow their own Dharma, Gita teaches them why this anger arise, and why people are so different. Gita teaches them how to concentrate on MY DUTY instead of running behind the whimsical mind. Comparision is certainly not a right approach to teach Dharma to the kids. We need positive approach when we talk to kids specially teenagers. With lots of Love, A sadhika Sadhna Karigar ------------------------------ We all are fighting with so many things from morning till evening daily, right from birth to end of life, it is a struggle and part of life. Hindu Gods are visualised to fight the same way during their course of action, nothing is new , try to understand the same. We are all aspirants of truth, struggling throughout our life for attaining smaller to bigger truth and purifying our actions, if it is not so we shall remain glorifying our outer not the inner self. God Bless and illumine our hearts with love and nobility. Hari Motwani ------------------------------- Hare Krishna, All glories to Srila Prabhupada & Vaishnavas. Pranams to you and all readers in this forum. The question presented here by Shri Iyer G. A. " Why Hindu Gods are depicted to be showing violence (killing or annihilating evil physically)? It's a very good and a logical question from the mundane perspective. In order to understand the answer I would like to present an explanation based on Bhakti Vedantic philosophy. Arjuna also propagated the philosophy of non-violence on the battle field of Kurukshetra. We find a very interesting, convincing and logical dialogue from the mundane perspective in the first chapter of the Bhagvat Gita. (Verses 29 to 46). In the above context I would like to draw attention verses 36, 37, 38 quoted below: papam eva´srayed asman hatvaitan atatayinaḠtasman narha vayam hantum dhartaraá¹sá¹ran sa-bandhavan sva-janam hi katham hatva sukhinaḠsyama madhava yady apy ete na pa´syanti lobhopahata-cetasaáh¸ kula-ká¹saya-krá¹tam doá¹sam mitra-drohe ca patakam katham na jñeyam asmabhiḠpapad asman nivartitum kula-ká¹£aya-ká¹›tam doá¹£am prapa´syadbhir janardana Sin will overcome us if we slay such aggressors. Therefore it is not proper for us to kill the sons of Dhá¹›taraá¹£á¹ra and our friends. What should we gain, O Kṛṣṇa, husband of the goddess of fortune, and how could we be happy by killing our own kinsmen? O Janardana, although these men, overtaken by greed, see no fault in killing one's family or quarreling with friends, why should we, with knowledge of the sin, engage in these acts? After Arjuna presents such logical statements for not fighting and resigns, he surrenders to Krishna for His guidance, and thus Krishna spoke the Bhagavat Gita starting with straightforward talk: a´socyan anva´socas tvam prajña-vadam´s ca bhaá¹£ase gatasun agatasum´s ca nanu´socanti paṇá¸itaḥ The Blessed Lord said: While speaking learned words, you are mourning for what is not worthy of grief. Those who are wise lament neither for the living nor the dead. Basically He was indicating that Arjuna you are talking like a learned man or a wise man but you are not; because your logic is based on the `bodily' or material concept of Life. The essence of Bhagvat Gita is that you and others that you see are not this material body, but are spirit souls and as far is the soul is concerned it is eternal. The individual soul obtains a material body according to its past karma and in order to get out of the mire of or catch 22 cycle of karma when one must transcend the modes of material nature. This can only be done if one completely surrenders to God/Krishna. Surrendering to Him (God) means following the will of God, His instructions. We can do that by hearing `as it is' from realized Sadhu, Guru & Shastra /Scripture. (The word He spoke and the words spoken about Him). Sometimes even after repeated negotiations with the wrong doers if the path of peace fails then war is eminent. The war in Kurukshetra was a last resort. After more than fair negotiations……..Duryodhana said " I will not give the Pandavas even little space as that would fit on a pin head " . The Supreme Lord Himself negotiated…now is war or violence induced by such a war unfair? It was the desire and the will of God that His devotees the Pandavas get back what rightfully belonged to them; and when ever the will if God is opposed that is `adharma'. Here God specifically indicated His desire. Of course on has to be very careful and not become a radical, fanatical and endanger the society o man kind or creation by either whimsically thinking or interrupting the will of God by self proclamation. That is demoniac. That is why it is imperative to follow the `word' of God `as it is' without interpretations that suits one's sense gratification. And this possible by hearing from realized souls in, a bonafide spiritual master or Guru in disciplic succession/parmapara. A true devotee of the Lord never propagates violence when it comes to insults or injustice upon the self. Lord Jesus Christ tolerated all that was inflicted on him but for the good of others was not afraid to be what appears to be act of violence in the Temple of Jerusalem, Herod's Temple, at which the courtyard is described as being filled with livestock and the tables of the money changers, who changed the standard Greek and Roman money for Jewish and Tyrian money, which were the only coinage that could be used in Temple ceremonies. According to the Gospels, Jesus took offense to this (extorting profit from the exchange of monies), and so, creating a whip from some cords, drives out the livestock, scatters the coins of the money changers, and turns over their tables, and those of the people selling doves. So what to talk about God Himself, who takes great offense when His devotees or innocent are tortured by the injustice of the demoniac. This material world is described by the Vedic scriptures as `kuntha jagat'. Kuntha means anxiety, the part of His creation where there is `NO ANXIETY' is known as Vaikunth. The spiritual world, where there is no anxiety. No anxiety caused by birth, death old age or disease. Krishna says that this world is `dukhalayam ashahvatam' meaning this material world is temporary and full of miseries. One of the categories of miseries is the Adhibhautika klesh miseries that inflicted by others (violence). We cannot find or expect Utopia in this material world. There always exists atheistic class of `demoniac beings' that will inflict pain on even the religious, pious, faithful devotees of the Lord. In order to check that, God either makes someone an instrument (example Arjuna) or He Himself descends in various forms, incarnations Avtaras to Mitigate /eradicate/ annihilate the miscreants according to time, place and circumstances. Bhagvat Gita Chapter 4:7-8 yada yada hi dharmasya glanir bhavati bharata abhyutthanam adharmasya tadatmanam sá¹›jamy ahamparitraṇaya sadhunam vina´saya ca duá¹£ká¹›tam dharma- samsthapanarthaya sambhavami yuge yuge Whenever and wherever there is a decline in religious practice, O descendant of Bharata, and a predominant rise of irreligion—at that time I descend Myself. In order to deliver the pious and to annihilate the miscreants, as well as to reestablish the principles of religion, I advent Myself millennium after millennium. Now there are many categories of the incarnations of God. The Brahma Samhita says `Advaitam Achutam, anandi rupam' meaning there is none second to the Lord (Advaitam), He is infallible- never influenced by the illusory energy or Maya (Achutam), and He has unlimited forms /incarnations (anadi rupam). When the Lord creates He has incarnates as `Guna avatars', when he descends Himself for annihilating the demoniac, for pleasure of devotees and leaves mankind His Deity form, sends his Messengers, and Holy scriptures it is His `Kripa Lila' or Merciful pastimes. So depending on time, place and circumstances during this endless cycle of material creation He descends in different forms to enact transcendental pastimes whether it is the killing of Kamsa, Ravana, Hairanyakashipu or propagating non-violence in His incarnation of Lord Buddha or as a devotee of the Lord opening the reservoir of Love for God as Chaitanya Mahaprabhu. Whether the Lord embraces someone, kicks someone or even kills someone it is all on TRANSCENDENTAL PLATFORM. For example all demons killed by the Lord (regardless of which demon he killed in which incarnation), and those killed in His presence in battle of Kurukshetra attained a spiritual destination. So there is benefit for those killed by the Lord. One great Vaishnava Acharya Srila Bhakti Vinode Thakore in poem compiled by him writes " asura shakala pailo charana vinode thalilo boshi……Gopinath mama nivedana shuno " meaning: O Lord Gopinath [please here my fervent prayer, so many demons have wound up getting your mercy by the touch of Your lotus feet (example: Krishna kicked Kamsa again and again before killing him, Krishna danced on the hood of Kaliya Naag until Kaliya spat blood) but Vinode (Thakur Bhakti Vinode) is still is tired and waiting for your mercy. The Supreme Lord is a Transcendental Autocrat. Whatever He does it is for the supreme benefit of all and it gives Him Pleasure too weather stealing (stealing butter from gopis for the pleasure of gopis) or even when He brakes His promise. (He promised he would never participate in the battle of Kurukshetra....but He broke His promise by charging towards Bhisma with a chariot wheel when Bhishma almost killed Arjuna. Krishna says in the Bhagavat Gita " Pratijanati kaunteya, na me bhakta pranashyat' ` O Son of Kunti (Arjuna) please declare that My devotee will never perish'. He asks His devotee to declare, He could have very well said: " I declare that My devotee will never perish " , but instead He asks Arjuna to do so ……..why is that? The Acharyas comment that sometimes the Lord is known to break His promises for the sake of His devotees but He will never break a promise that His devotee has made! Such Love is the pinnacle of the loving exchange and reciprocation of the Lord & His devotee. This is something that we should never forget. No society can exist with Law and order. We have the Police department, jails courts etc that punish or even induce killing (capital punishment) on criminals who are a danger to the society. So it should not be surprising that Lord who descends in His various incarnations kills various demons. His instruments are powerful enough to do His will, but when He personally descends he also gives immense pleasure to His devotees and that is the main reason for enacting many different lilas or pastimes. I must express my gratitude to Srila Prabhupada and all devotees for imparting these transcendental teachings to whom I am eternally indebted towards. I hope I was able to answer your question. One excellent reference book that I strongly recommend is : `BHAGAVAT GITA AS IT IS, by A.C. Bhativedanta Swami Prabhupada. It will make your life sublime. Haribol Satchitananda Dasa -- PRIOR POSTING PS: This is a burning question that has been misused from centuries against Indian Faiths. I would like to address this in detail. I request the moderators to allow me to do so. Thanks. Naga. Violence in Epics Any scripture can be studied from social perspective or from spiritual perspective. Once, a scripture is examined from social perspective, all characters ought to be human be it Rama or Krishna or Abraham or Zeus or Achilles. After all, these characters are visualized by humans, may be enlightened, yet humans. Therefore, the actions performed by these characters need to be obsorbed with an acute circumstantial social awareness without jumping into conclusions out of context. Hanuman tells Bhima when requested to help Pandavas in the anticipated Mahabharata war, " I belong to an erstwhile value system. Hence, I am not entitled to wage your war. " The author, Veda Vyasa, emphasises on many occasions the social boundaries within which every social norm has to be examined carefully. I suggest you to read the epics of Mahabharata and Ramayana again carefully before answering your son. It is a better idea to encourage him to study the same himself before criticizing them. Ravana has abducted Sita, wife of Rama. A common man would boil in rage to kill such a person instantly. Rama had the capability to destroy Ravan. Yet, Rama sends his representation to Ravana till the last moment to avert the war and to avoid killing of anyone. On the other hand, Ravana never regrets his actions. He interprets Rama's good will as weakness and believes that the weak ones are born only to suffer from the wrath of the strong ones like himself. The goodness is often misunderstood with weakness. He shows no interest in saving any lives as such! Also, when Rama sends Hanuman to find Sita, he requests Hanuman to understand first what Sita wants. Sita was already about to suicide notwithstanding the violence attempted against her. Thanks to Vedavati's curse and Mandodari's wisdom, Ravana could not dare violating her physically. Yet, she was literally tortured psychologically. When Hanuman reveals his identity, the first thing she reminds Rama is to liberate her from the situation at the earliest. She even puts a timeline for the action lest she would kill herself. A husband is violated and wants his wife back. He is wise enough to ensure that his wife wants the same. He is human enough to request and warn the violator. The violator is insensitive to honor others in the first place and refuses to do so even after a series of reminders and warnings even from his own brothers and wife. Is it not obvious that such characters should be removed from the society for the sake of social welfare? Same case in Mahabharata. The peace-loving Yudhishthira wages everything - kingdom, his brothers, his wife and himself - to evade a war. They accept banishment. Krishna himself pleads the Kauravas for peace. He even offers on his own that he will convince the Pandavas even if they are given just five villages - not an empire, not a kingdom, not even a province ... just five villages. Again, the violators refuse to acknowledge and honor the requests made. On contrary, they mock the peace mongers as impotents. Did they leave any choice but to be removed? Kamsa, Krishna's uncle, had murdered many new borns driven by his baseless paranoia. He had imprisoned his own sister and her husband for life. He had thrown his own father into dungeons for power. He unleashed wrath on poor villagers just for a fear of a child killing him. He drew his death nearer and nearer thanks to his own paranoia. If people were happy, why would they send Akrura to plead Krishna and Balarama to kill their own king? If they were not convinced, why would Krishna and Balarama consider killing their own uncle? If you read Bhagavata carefully, the brothers never strike on Kamsa on their own. Attempts were made to murder them at every step. Did Kamsa leave any room for his own survival? Did he leave any other way other than killing him to rescue the people? In all cases, who killed whom. Even from social perspective, Ravana, Kamsa, Duryodhana etc. had already killed themselves with their deeds by violating every human around who just wanted them dead. They just needed a power to depend upon. Rama and Krishna happened to be those. Respects. Naga Narayana. To be contd. … -- Dear Sadaks, If a doctor does operation and patient dies for some reason. Do you blame the doctor? If a judge setences a criminal to be hanged until death, do you tell judge commited murder? Here the doctor intention to save the patient. judge intention was to punish, not to murder. But if a man kills another man for gains/vengence is called murder. But if Hindu Gods kills very bad person after giving long rope, it is called in Hinduism " Vadham " , may mean termination. Like one`s leg gets affected by diabetes, the leg is cut off. Here Asuras (Very bad people) are affected by total mind corruption. There are warned now and then which can also be known from puranas. Only ultimately God terminates. In Christianity- there is a thing known as Judgement Day. Please ask Christians what it is. When Moses went 40 days on hills for prayer, leaving hundreds of peoples at the foothills, the people lost faith in GOD and they started drinking wine, made forms of eagle/animals as Gods, behaving like animals, any woman with any man, Moses came down with 10 Commandments. But all laughed at him. Result Gods in heaven says Bible, killed almost all. Even now due imbalance of Dharma, earthquake/Tsunami (Pralaya) takes place killing people. Jai Sri Krishna baiya sathyanarayan -- Narain Narain My question is to Vineet Sarvottam. Sir, if that scorpion comes into your house, then what will you do ? Pls check up with Papa and come back. It is important question. I love this father/son relationship/asking questions and wise councelling.. Lallubhai Chirimar - dear mr iyer First we have to study the Vedas, then Upanishads, Brahmanas, Aranyakas, Siksha, Nirukta, Chhandas, then the 18 Mahapuranas, 18 upa-puranas, then the Ithihaasaas Mahabharat and Ramayana etc. This is the series of study prescribed. From this it is clear that Vedas are the first to study, i.e. Lower primary, then the next upper primary, then high school, then plus 2, then degree and finally the ithihaasaas which are to be studied for PG. Our problem is what is to be studied in PG, we study in KG or lower primary. The root of man is his head and his leg portion is the head actually. The growth starts from the head portion once it is formed as a unicellular organ in the uterus. (Oordhwamoolamadhassakha...... bhagawat gita). This means now we are standing upward down position (on the reverse.) Therefore all our actions are on the reverse. So to hear something from other Dharmas like Christian or Islam or any other and think in that direction, is not of Sanathana Dharma. It has no equivalence in the world, rather, all other dharmas are born out of it only. The modern education system is teaching only of the Drishyas, means, object based (Dravyaadhishtita). Shabda, Sparsa, Roopa, Rasa, Gandha, these are only taught and studied. There is no teaching of the tought. Means, before I start studying a matter or an object which is outside me, I should first study about myself. Dear Mr Iyer, you may kindly start studying yourself. Do not think of Devataas. Devataas and men are having equally good and bad qualities. The one who is able to do MANANA he is man. No that those having two legs fitted on the stomac are men.... No never. Start asking yourself, who 'am I ? From where I came., Where I have to go/reach... What for I am sent here.. Who has sent me ? With whose ability my eyes are able to see, with whose inspiration I am being led to do the innumerable doings (karmaas), with whose wish my ears are able to hear... Just because I have two eyes, I cannot see. Just because I have two ears, I cannot hear. Just because I have tongue I cannot talk... Then what is that power which orders my these senses (INDRIYAAS) to do karma. That chaitanya swaroopa is within you covered by all the (bad) smskaaraas bought forward throug out the innumerable birth and death. This cover one has to remove or (dis- cover) then the original will shine. One reaches a stage of no.... nothing. regards vijayan kiliyil -- Dear Iyer ji namaskar Without assessing the powers of the opponent the survival is not possible. It is upto an individual which path to lead. For the benifit of mankind if voilence is utilised is a sin too but there are methods of prayashchitas too. For the welfare of mankind you have to access whom you are dealing with a most powerful demon or an ordinary person. If you have to deal with a terrorist you need to use arms and even kill him if he is a dire problem. You should explain your son simply the role of a police man/ army gaurding the nations use voilence to combat terror. In sprtuality there are various types of dealing with sinners for some the killing of demons like Ravana, Kansa and other mighty powerful ones God has to create a counter programme that could eliminate the EVIL intensions of Adharmi individuls and on the other hand where you have to deal with the common man you have to guide vast population to follow a faith and bring people on a common platform to attain harmony and peace. No incarnation can be compared with each other. Jesus the son of God fufiled a mission and blessed the world with his guidance and a noble thought but people got stuck in Churchanity instead. Mulsims received Holy Koran but today fanaticism knew no limits through its powerful followers. Hindus have a vast tresure of knowledge but most of them are busy in caste based practices and the entire world is on one side struglling for everything to achieve things through easy methods. There is no easy way to attain goals. One who has created a room for voilence gets voilence and one who deservs to be dealt with a non voilent ways get the same way and let this to be decided by the almighty and let humans do not decide on this as we lack that supreme vision that decides everything for every being present in this world. It is so upto you to follow a path that God deals accordingly for you. So simple if a terrorist bothers a nation authorities counter his actions through like agencies. If there is a person approaching or bothering authorities is dealt through dialogue and pecefully things are settled. To get convinced for the actions of incarnations you have to study the related scriptures to realise the truth. One can not be greater than other just by making a foolish assesment that one has used voilence and another has used non voilent tactic to attain something. You need to know the missions of each incarnation and at the end you will find that all had a different missions and people with different powers to deal with. If we are dealing with a rustler we must know that one is to be defeated with same trade. IF one us a poor man one has to deal with him in the simple fashion. A poor man can not be dealt with voilence. Judge the situations of both the eras you will and can satisfy your curious son. Even study voilence and non voilence in real terms. When you eat something you fulfil your need to support/ maintain your physical state. Will you stop eating just because one day you came to know that eating too in a way leads one to act via voilent means. Do not you cut plants, kill animals and while eating eat several unseen things? All the incarnations acted as per their respective TIME and requirements. One who had to use weapons used them perfectly and one who had to use compassion and love used it the brilliant way. It is upto the people for whom these greats are born as to how they deal with them. That is why incarnations acted differently but all established superiority of Dharma the truth over Evil on this globe. With regards Love and knowledge! Dalip Langoo -- 1. Hindu gods are not to be understood in the same way as the judaic / greek gods. they are manifestations of the self and relate to our own psychological processes. this has been understood recently in the west as archetypes of the self and forms part of CG jungs analytical psychology. 2. Though Hindu gods always seem to be involved in wars (conflict is a better term) hindus are generally characterised as being non-violent and gandhi is one example of this. most international violence and acts of terrorism these days are related to the middleeast the home of judaism, christianity and islam, not to hinduism, buddhism, jainism, sikhism, taoism or any other pagan tradition please read 'the god delusion' by richard dawkins Ravi Bakhsi -------------------------------- Nevertheless, in an age when artistic depiction is misused for anti- Hindu propaganda as mentioned, Hindus have to reflect and ask whether such artistic depiction is doing harm to how their faith/culture is being perceived by others and by their youth, and whether we should advise against such depictions. It is defensive and slavish mentality that Hindus are falling prey to the mechanisations of others. When one believe in one god, can there be different ones ? How Hindus or somebody else want to depict their Gods is their choice. Hindus dont have to feel sorry about making pictures of their Gods. It is none one else's concern. Sampuran sINGH - PRIOR POSTING Dear Shri Iyer: Namaskaram with respects. Hindu concept of Dharma, according to my feeble understanding, makes a distinction between violence required by one's duties, and violence done mindlessly or to seek pleasure. When a king punishes a criminal, it is done to prevent further crime, and is therefore not himsa. The distinction between himsa and ahimsa is very nicely explained in Mahabharat at several places. To my mind, the present confusion is due to advocacy of extreme ahimsa by Gandhi ji. This led to a mixing of personal dharma of an ordinary citizen with that of raj dharma of the state and the king. Gandhi ji's interpretation of ahimsa is valid only in satyuga. How would you deal with Somalian pirates by using ahimsa? Gandhiji's ahimsa itself succeeded perhaps only once – against the British. It failed against others. Further, while Hindu gods are shown armed to the teeth, Hindus themselves have remained relatively peace oriented. In other systems, the Gods have been depicted as peaceful, but the followers have been very violent. Therefore, my view is that the symbolic arming of Hindu gods is aspirational (as is the peaceful depiction in other systems), as a means to encourage Hindus to be a little more war-like. Secondly, the violence by the Hindu deities has almost always been in response to the needs of the people, and not out of spite or anger. Hope this is useful, Sanjay Agarawal - Here in the UK, we have been considering this issue for some time. During the last 2 to 3 years, we have had Christian priests telling us that Hindu faith and its gods are violent and preach violence – `look at the pictures of your gods!', they say. The letter from Shree G A Iyer thus rang de ja vu-bells for me. 1. The paintings and other depictions of Hindu divinities are the work of artists who have enjoyed, and continue to enjoy, the freedom of artistic expression their faith community has traditionally granted them. Nowhere in the scriptures is it decreed that we have to paint pictures of gods/goddesses nor that we have to show gods/goddesses carrying weapons. But to-date no one has questioned why we undertake such depictions. 2. Islam forbids artistic expressions of anything divine, or of Muhammed. Christians actively depict Christ, but only in a peaceful/suffering pose. 3. If we bear in mind that what we are being told today through revised editions and mis-translations of scriptures of faiths is somewhat different from the original scriptures, the artistic stereotyping may not necessarily correspond to the actual `life- history' of the concerned figures and their teachings. 4. Christians believe that Christ was the son of God, but he was unable to stop injustice and cruelty and gave his life in the process. That is their belief. Hindus believe in incarnation of the divine who uses supernatural powers as a last resort to destroy evil. This is not to be equated with the concept of `violence' in the ordinary human terms. Once the order is restored and the righteous victims of evil are liberated from the tyranny of the evil-doer, the avatar no longer resorts to the so-called `violence' and returns to the normal benevolent peaceful form. Our scriptures describe God as the source of bliss and auspiciousness, the avatar coming to protect devotees, to restore righteousness, and order to nature and cosmos when such is threatened. 5. Faiths should be judged i) on the basis not of propaganda but on what is actually written in their scriptures, and ii) on the actions of the faith communities. Contrast Hindus [and their record of non- aggression against other countries and against other faiths – even of giving sanctuary to those faiths fleeing persecution elsewhere – Jews, Parsees, Assyrian Christians], with the followers of other faiths who have acted to decimate other faith-based civilisations and committed genocides in India, Americas, Australia, etc. etc., almost succeeding in wiping out various civilisations and races. Nevertheless, in an age when artistic depiction is misused for anti- Hindu propaganda as mentioned, Hindus have to reflect and ask whether such artistic depiction is doing harm to how their faith/culture is being perceived by others and by their youth, and whether we should advise against such depictions. Unfortunately this is easier said than done. How do you persuade those who make money out of this industry to cease such activities? Time to reflect. Girdhari - Namaste Sadhakas.. Sumangal Suprabhat... As per my belief in our hindu religion, there is only one God " Parmatma " . All the names you noted like Shri Rama, Krishna, Durga etc. are its " Ansha " who took birth as Human being to taught us about " Dharma " & to spread " Peace & Love " . Param Parmatma created this beautiful Earth/Shrushti for us. He is controlling us. If someone is not following his 'Rules of life' and troubling others. He / she must get punished for others well-being & to keep Peace in the world. Example : If you have a box of fruits & one of them get spoiled what you will do..?? You will remove that spoiled fruit so that other fruits will remain good otherwise that one fruit will spoil others. Thanks Satish Pawaskar Keep Smiling Always ;-) India ------------------------------ God is suddha, buddha, muktha swaroopa. For killing somebody, one has to get angry. (krodha) God does not get krodha. (If it becomes angry, none of us will be thre.) To kill somebody, you have to get angry. Only, we become angry and therefore we cannot be God. Krodha is the resultant of Kaama (Aasakthi). When you slap your son, does he start praising you...? does he get Aananda. Rama never killed Ravana. Ravana is described as Moha (Aasakthi). Rama killed only the Aasakthi which was there in Ravana. The praisings of Ravana is well clearly written. Once some body goes thru it, one can understand that Rama never killed Ranava but the God gave him the Moksha. regards vijayan kiliyil ----------------------------- Hindu Gods demonstrate ;- Nip the evil in the bud. They never lose patience.the annhilation of the evil is done after many many chances for abondoning the violence against innocent are provided to the asuras (demons), who usually ignore these. Regards Shiban Raina ------------------------------ Dear Shri Iyer, Please refer to your mail of November 10/11. You say that you are a senior citizen and also a staunch Hindu, but in my eyers, you seem to be utterly confused about the basic Hindu faith. Unfortunately, most of the modern educated Hindus suffer from this confusion according to me. Resultantly, the upcoming Hindu generation is alsmost uprooted from their Hindu base. Your question as to why Hindu Gods are depicted to be showing violence (killing or annihilating evil physically), betrays ignorance of the basic Hindu tenet that Parameshwara or Paramatma (God) is one. Only Devatas and Devis, who have a positive effect on human beings are many. Parents and Gurus too are counted among Devatas, (Matridevo bhava, Pitridevo bhava). Paramatma's creative faculty personified as Brahma has no armament or weapon. Vishnu representing His executive faculty and Rudra (Shiva) representing the assimilation or dissolution faculty alone bear a weapon in one hand whereas the other hand bears a protective gesture. It only symbolises punishment to the evil doer and protection to the righteous ones. The message is concretized in the Geeta, " Paritranayaya sadhunam vinashaya cha dushkritam/ Dharma sansthapanarthaya sambhavami yuge yuge, " (From time to time, I appear on earth in order to protect the righteous ones, destroy the evil doers and to establish the rule of Dharma, i.e., righteousness or rule of law). In the Mahabharatha, (Shanti-parva, chap. 57), Bhishma Pitamah tells Yudhishthir, " The greatest sin of a king is his failure to protect his subjects. He should protect the dharma of all his Varnas. (It means that every citizen should be able to pursue his or her chosen vocation/occupation, education, trade, business, farming, lending services, doing government or private job, without let or hindrance). The king should act like Yamaraj in administering justice and like Kuber in collection of revenue. He should make provision for those who cannot support themselves and should take good care of those who help the destitute " Such lessons of Hindu scriptures have been ignored . Resultantly, they have brought the country to a breaking point. In Raj dharma, the question of violence and non-violence is irrelevant. Yours sincerely, Ram Gopal ------------------------------- -Shree Hari- There has been a lot of mention of various gods killing, in conflict, the Divine Feminine has been mentioned also on this thread. Now, I do not know these ancient Vedic literatures, but have some insights to other bronze age traditions. Emmanuel Vilakovski considered that the various ancient Greek stories of waring gods, was actually the remembrance of ancient astronomic events. I have seen on this thread, Sadhaks inferring that these ancient sagas of warring gods, was the primordial forces at work. Other Sadhaks have in my opinion, correctly pointed out that the Abrahamic traditions are the most warlike, I have an explanation as to why. Here is a quote from the book, 'A shewing of God's Love', (written by an Christian medieval female mystic ). " The mother may fold her child tenderly to her breast , but our tender Mother Jesus, He may homely lead into His blessed Breast....... " (Notice the Feminine/Masculine aspects here ). When I first read this, I thought of, (hard to believe I know), Shakti , Quan Yin , Mother Mary, and Asherah, known also as Elat , the feminine aspect of El, ( The supreme GOD). You see, She has been factored out of the world, (perhaps She is retuning, I pray She is). I ask you. Would She desire her children to kill each other.? The point is Asherah was forced out of the traditions of Israel and Judah, leaving in the minds of those people, Yahweh, without his consort, thus the Divine Feminine, the Nurturer ,was no longer in their hearts, the growth of the Patriarch religion had started. So the god of their tradition became a god of war and and male dominance. The great Swami Vivekananda pointed out the horror of the millions that were killed in the name of that (unbalanced) god . Bede Griffiths regarded a religion without balance as demonic. Sri Krishna pointed out to Arjuna that, he (Arjuna) had no memory of his past lives. Now consider this. If a swami, a doctor, maybe a Sister of Mercy, or any sweet soul., suddenly remembered with great clarity , being a warrior, raising the battle- ax, or sword in brutal warfare , what would they think. A soul can weary of war, did not Lord Krishna point out it was only the flesh and blood that was being destroyed in warfare. Many have said that the external world is a reflection of mankind's inner self. With Respect and Divine Love. Mike Keenor ---------------------------- Respected Sir, It is not the question of God or human being, the central theme is that " a woman is most often linked and the cause of fights / wars " as well as, down fall ! It may appear to be crude, but still there seems to be a connection, am I not correct? Barin Chatterjee ----------------------------- In Short, Hindus believe in the principle so nonviolence that is practical and can be practiced in day to day life. Christians believe in a Utopian nonviolence theory that neither they nor anyone else can practice. To elaborate, I suppose your son is not old enough to introspect and understand. First of all there are no Hindu Gods and Christian god. There is just ONE power that is omnipresent in all the things/beings. And it (I will not call it he or she) is not really non-violence per our definition, else no one ever died, no one got killed and there was no war ever etc. I understand that your son is really referring to the incarnations / perceptions of Gods that Hindus and Christians respectively believe in. First thing that you need to know is per Christians Jesus is not a God. He is the " Son of God " or the Messiah. Per Christians God never incarnated but Hindus do believe that God incarnates and so there is no point in comparing their perception of God to Hindu perception. Mahatma Gandhi's nonviolence was predominantly adopted from Christianity to fight them back on their own turf and with their own weapon. Persecution of nonviolent people by British brought back the memories of persecution of Jesus and his disciples and received extensive coverage and support from rest of the Christian world, forcing British out of India. In India Buddha preached and followed non violence, however, his disciples when they went to China to teach Buddhism they first learned martial arts to protect themselves during the journey. This is how martial art first reached China which they later expanded upon. Nonviolence shouldn't be confused with cowardice. Nonviolence means not hurting others for pleasure and self-fulfillment. However, fighting (and if needed killing) for protecting self and others can not be categorized as Violence. Nonviolence also means giving peace a chance before waging a war. That is why both Ram and Krishna sent a last peace message to Ravan and Duryodhan so the war could be avoided. Anand Awasthi PRIOR POSTING If you have some problem in any part of your body, first you try to cure it, but when it becomes incurable it has to be cut off to prevent rest of the body. World is viraat swaroop (Universal Form) of God. All creatures are parts of it. Things become clear when you think from God's point of view. Thanks Raja Gurdasani - Dear Sadhakas, Namaste! Shashikala Bahenji, right you are: " who can kill who " , as all is immortal/imperishable! I guess Sadhakas are answering in the best possible ways they know, because it is to be explained by a father to a son who is asking such questions as he should. Perhaps it is a giant leap to grasp such concept as immortality, which may not be appreciated at this stage in son's life! My short answer is: " when one inquires into deeper meanings of God, Life, Death, Incarnations, (non)Violence, being Hindu, Hindu Gods etc, one may come upon understanding that many questions like this get answered in the satisfactory way " . Now I would teach my son these things, but I didn't know myself when they were growing up! In my experience the best answer to one's question is the disappearance of question itself in the light of understanding question, as J Krishnamurti used to say " Please see that the answer is in the question " . Namaskar..... Pratap Bhatt ----------------------------- Hari Om 'Violence' is a relative term. Basically in the divine play of God, humans enjoy certain liberties of conduct. There are laws governing the entire creation. Humans have immense powers but identification with the mind and body makes them 'desire' for worldly temporary pleasures. Here they come in conflict with another law- desires can never be fulfilled, you can only renounce them. In order to fulfill the desires, one indulges into violence. 'Gods' in order to keep the creation going 'mete out' the results of deeds in an equally violent manner- as you sow, so shall you reap.. In fact, when they do so, they are liberating the souls from darkness. Hence, it is all 'play' , there is no violence, there is only 'mercy', there is only 'love' emanating from the top. Jai Shree Krishna Vyas N B -------------------------------- Namaste, Sanatana Dharma is not a simplistic/moralistic philosophy where things/ acts are categorised as eternally good or bad. It is the context that determines whether an act is good or bad. consequently when adharma prevails - the destruction/ killing of the 'asuras' is necessary for greater good. To give you an analogy - a knife might be considered as an instrument for violence but it is also necessary for cutting vegetables etc. The oft quoted verse 'ahimsa paramo dharmah' from the Gita is only half of the entire line which concludes with 'dharma himsa tathaiva cha' - himsa is equally valid when used for dharma. Gods in our tradition perpetrated violence against those forces that prevented Truth / dharma from prevailing and therefore cannot be judged in the same tone as those who commit senseless violence. Hope this helps. Shubhamastu Anuradha Choudry -------------------------------- Many Rishis such as 'Balmiki' were masters of weaponry and yet they opted not to fight because they are Brahmins, not authorized to slay but authorized to teach. The TriDev Brahma, Vishnu and Maheswar are in-charge of this universe and they have to do whatever is good for mankind. Manoj Padhi ------------------------------- fellow sadhakaas, namasteji..There is no escape from birth and death cycles..all our prayers wish peace and happiness..three times...But..if you can't defend yourself with vachaa, love..etc..you have to kill by Mantra or sahastra..even God had to exterminate terror by bad elements. Hari Om Vishnu Dada (Vishnu Patel) -- PRIOR POSTING There is only one God. No Hindu God or Muslim God or Christian God. They are all one and the same. Besides all human beings, irrespective of religion have souls whose ultimate destiny is to merge with God or the Parmatma. So to say this God is violent and the other is not is an exercise in futility. Hari Shanker Deo - Dear Mr. Iyer, Gods created all creatures on earth. A few of them tried to supercede GOD and also tried to destabilise the world. GOD had to ensure that these creatures do not wreak havoc. hence the destruction of evil. Anil Jain - Jai Hanuman Where is the question of some one " killing " another, when everyone is " immortal/imperishable " as a law ? Can any sadhak enlighten me, Jee ? So that I may address this question !! Kindly help, Jee ! Jee !! 'Violence' by 'Gods' ! Raam, Raam, Raam !! Mike Bhaiyya ! Pratap Bhaiyya! Sathyanarainji !! Adrien !! Any one Jee ! But quickly Jee !! Will you come to my rescue with reference to 'self' and 'Gitaji' - Jee! Jee ! ! Your sister is too stunned and anxious by the question, Jee ! Who can kill whom Jee ! What do you say Adrien ? Namaste Jee Jee Jee Shashikala ----------------------------- ----------------------------- 1. Hindu gods are to be understood in the same way as the judaic / greek gods. they are manifestations of the self and relate to our own psychological processes. this has been understtood recently in the west as archetypes of the self and forms part of CG jungs analytical psychology. 2. though Hindu gods always seem to be involved in wars (conflict is a better term) hindus are generally characterised as being non- violent and gandhi is one example of this. Majority of the international violence and acts of terrorism these days are related to the middleeast the home of judaism, christianity and islam, not to hinduism, buddhism, jainism, sikhism, taoism or any other pagan tradition. please read 'the god delusion' by richard dawkins for great understanding. Ravi Bakhsi Dear Mr Iyer, Violence is something that you cannot avoid. Tell me when you eat vegetarian food do you not think that those vegetables and rice and dal and other such food also grew which means they had a life. Which means that the vegetables and rice were alive and were killed for your ultimate consumption. That is violence to a lesser degree. What makes you think that violence does not occur everyday? Even when you breathe you kill millions of bacteria that enter your nose and mouth. Let me put it to you that without a section of the population taking the initiative of killing bad elements in any society, others do not have the luxury of being non-violent. hope this helps Prashanth Thirukkonda - Dear spiritual brothers and sisters, Vedas do not advise just non violence but lay emphasis on Non Violence of the strong. Prakrti- the divine subtle Nature which is our Supreme Mother according to Vedas is extremely strong and powerful but largely peaceful and non violent. She provides a Book of Nature which even blind people and even animals/fishes/birds can read and wants us to follow Rts- Her cosmic laws of necessity for our social, moral and physical order. Like any benevolent and loving mother she remains peaceful and affectioante most of the time but gets extremly violent when we flout her Cosmic Laws of Nature and start spreading social, moral and physical evils. Hindu gods (Ishwaras) are Not God- as there is only One universal God for the entire mankind wise men describe Him with different names. All the Hindu gods/goddesses (Ishwaras/devas/devis) are extremely powerful and strong but like Prakrti merciful, benevolent and always keen to ensure that cosmic Laws of nature (Rta) are observed by all her children who are noble people. Thus Hindu Ishwaras/devas/devis are the greatest followers of Non violence of the Strong but get violent if evil is spread in society, environment is polluted and hydra headed CORRUPTION with Nine Heads over takes virtue, ethics, divine thoughts and social nobilty. Incidentally Mahatma Gandhi never talked of Non Violence in a general way but always talked of Non Violence of the Strong. He wanted people of India to become morally, spiritually and physically strong and then non violent. Non violence of the Weak is self destruction. He has greatly emphasised this point in his Biography " My Experiment With Truth " . None of our gods/godesses become violent for the sake of violence but give a very long rope to evil people to change and behave conforming to Vedic Rta but those non divine people (Avarnas/Vritras) who encourage all actions against Laws of Nature and create social, moral and physics pollution strict action is taken by Hindu Ishwras/devas/devis. with kind regards, Prem Sabhlok -- PRIOR POSTING Shree Hari Ram Ram Shri Iyer Bhaiyya, Tell your son simply that to eradicate evil, one has to engage in violence. If your son understands about a scorpion and his sting, then ask him that if a scorpion comes into the house and is running around to sting someone, what would he do? Sometimes, a question posed against a question, can be a better clarifier, than an answer. So be it ! Vineet Sarvottam -------------------------------- Dear Sadhak, According to the Yajnavalkya Samhita, ahimsa or non-violence is the awareness and practice of non-violence in thought, speech and action. Do we practice Non-violence at that lavel ??? Do we not kill mosquitoes, cockroches and so many other so called " harmful being " according to us? What do you say about - Hang till death, cutting hands of a thief and so many other such so called justice orders? All our Puranas have symbolic meaning, they want us to look deep inside us. The war between good and evil is going on inside us only. Do we not need to " kill " our bad thoughts ? Do we call killing of our bad thoughts/demonic qualities as the act of violence ? Who gives power to kill those bad qualities within ? Ya Devi Sarvabhuteshu Shakti rupen sansthita Namstasye, namstasye, Namstasye namo Nama " I bow to the Divine Mother Who resides within me as Power/Strength " Thus MaaDurga-Goddess of Motherly Love, Mother of sur (Demigods/our good qualities) and Asura(Devils/our bad qualities) alike, cannot be blamed as performing violence. She is washing away the evils of Her sons by purifying them through Her divine weapons, and ultimately merging them all in Her own Divine Love. Similarly Lord Shiva, who drank vemon for the welfare of the entire universe, whose another name is Bhole Baba(Innocent God who pleases easily and bless us without considering our good/bad karmas) can not even think of violence. Read more about Him and you will know how merciful is He. We cannot know about our Gods until we know our own self. The Supreme is seated right into our own Heart. Look within, meditate deeply and know Thy Self. Surrender to Gitaji and go beyond the duality of this world. Krishna says- " I am the goal, the sustainer, the master, the witness, the abode, the refuge and the most dear friend. I am the creation and the annihilation, the basis of everything, the resting place and the eternal seed. " Gitaji Ch 9:18 He is All then who is killing whom ? We are not the body, and suffering is all illusion arising from the Nature. If we want to see peace, love and bliss in the world, we have to " BE " peace, love and bliss. There is no other way. There is no Hindu GOD or Christian God. There is only ONE, and that ONE GOD cannot be understood by debate as He is beyond duality, beyond mind, intellect. God can only be experienced. If your son wants to understand Sanatan Dharma, present him with a Gitaji. Read Gitaji over and over again, contemplate on each stanza. Come back and answer your own question. With lots of Love, A sadhika Sadhna Karigar - Dear Sir, We all need to better understand the Hindu philosophy and its message. First of all we need to understand the meaning of non- violence. Does it mean only physical act of killing or harming? No. any act leading to harm or hurt others through thought, word or deed is Non-violence. A physical act of killing in a war with a pure intension of good of the mankind is again not classified as violence. Unfortunately, this thought also is misunderstood, misinterpreted and misused now a days. When a mother slaps a child it is not called violence. because the act originates out of Love. The stories which you are referring to are from an era when evil could be identified as a person. who in many cases knew what is evil or wrong but could not help act in that influence.. that time to remove the evil was to destroy them. Even if you look at the story of Gods killing... you would find that it was the last resort. Even those 'evil' people were given all the possible chances and opportunities to change. Only when they refused to comply and the suffering of good become unbearable the physical act of annihilation was performed, to reinstate the faith, to restore righteousness. It is high time we realize that spirituality is not for weak. it requires Will of Shankra, courage of Vivekanand. Today good and evil have become seen in every person. hence to destroy the evil path of annihilation of the person is not resorted. In todays time the solution is - Transformation of heart. for this the divine beings use various methods. even allowing themselves to suffer. Lets not misinterpret their divine pure act of grace. We are such people who would not hesistate to crucify Jesus and do nothing to stop and fight against but will be first to feel pity after the act is done. we dont want to self introspect why he was crucified. we are just contented to know that he was crucified for our sins. As if the godly people have the obligation to be crucified while we continue on our unjust ways. if you love Jesus then share his pain by being good and just. be open and understanding, be loving towards all. God has given each one enough strength to fight our own battles. be willing to suffer the punishments for the mistake committed, dont pass it on to god or godly people and expect them to suffer for you. I request you to not use such words " hindu gods lose patience " . this thought itself is full of ignorance. First of all know - There is only one GOD and he is omnipresent, omniscience, and omni-potent. What ever God does is for good of all. Even the physical act of so called violence is for the good. it is for us to understand how, when and why he does what he does. Even to qualify to question god we must first become a humble student. then may be the divine wisdom would fall on us to understand and enjoy the bliss of his grace. sai ram Abhimanyu Kaul Sadaks With birth comes death. Mahatma Gandhi fought with weapons he had i.e. none, but you cannot run a country on that philosophy as India found out with China. We must all defend Dharma. This is the best. A persons duty is to live according to Dharma and to defend it. From Ahimsa paramo dharmaha, Dharma himsa tathaiva cha. This Is the full proper statement. Each person has to follow the work according to his caste and station in life. Kshatriyas job is to defend and fight for dharma. This is amply show in Gita, Ramayan, Mahabharat, in FACT THE ONLY HOLY BOOK WRITTEN ON A BATTLE FIELD IS THE GITA. Non violence is the best Dharma, but to attain it HIMSA (violence) is required to defend this is the message. Jayesh A Patel PRIOR POSTING dear brother loves and best wishes. The creator Himself has said in Geeta that the very purpose of His incarnation in human form is to destroy the wicked, to save the righteous. In fact this seems to be one of the necessary divine rule. Moreover non-violence does not mean not to resist evil. thanks. ck kaul ------------------------------- II SHRI HARI II Respected Shri Iyer Ji, One must understand God or Lord, a Prophet and Saint in their respective capacity. Our Gods and Hindu Dharma do not follow the principle of Violence (Hinsa) and in fact, Violence (Hinsa) has no place in any of Hindu scriptures and character of our Gods and Saints. Our scriptures say " Ahinsa Param Dharmo " (Non-violence is the ultimate (basis) of religion). Life (Leela) of our Gods and Saints show no violence whatsoever. To understand this you must go through our scriptures carefully under the guidance of eminent Sdhakas and participate in the Satsang of our great Saints (Sad Gurus). In Sanatan Dharma, there are mainly five Gods (Panch Devas) and only these Panch Devas are worshipped. Although, there are thirty three crore Devi Devtas and they are all the parts of only Panch Devas. In other religions we do not find Gods but the great Saints who are said to be Sons of Gods and sent by God to spread peace and the teachings of Gods. Our religion spreads over infinite time, you can count the origination and time for the others. First of all it is important to understand Ravna, Bali, Kans and numerous other Asur (Rakshasas). All these Asur were God's devotees (Bhaktas) and following the path of Vair (enmity) Bhakti (devotion for enmity). There are two type of devotees (Bhaktas) first Premi Bhaktas (dveotees who love God) and second the Vairi Bhaktas (devotees who keep enmity with God). Purpose of both devotees is same i.e. attainment of God. Ravna and his brother Kumbh Karan both were Jay and Vijay the Door Men (Dwar Pal) of Lord Vishnu's Vaikuntha lok. One day Sanakadik Rishis were going to meet God Vishnu in the Vaikunthalok and Jay and Vijay the Door Men (Dwar Pal) of Lord's Vaikunthalok stopped them at the door saying that they can not enter Vaikuntha without God Vishnu's permission, which was quite surprising as Rishis and Saints do not require permission to enter any of Divya Lokas. Therefore, Sanakadik Rishis got angry over the attitude of Jay and Vijay the Door Men (Dwar Pal) of Lord Vaikuntha and passed on curse (Shraap) to Jay and Vijay to take birth three times in Asuras (Rakshasas). Frightened by the curse (Shraap), Jay and Vijay fell on the lotus feet of Sanakadik Rishis for mercy (Daya) and Lord Vishnu also requested Sanakadik Rishis to show some compassion and Sanakadik Rishis relaxed their curse (Shraap) and told that though Jay and Vijay will take birth in Asur Kul (Rakshasas, Demons) but Lord Vishnu will take reincarnation (Avtaar) for their welfare (Udhar). And Sanakadik Rishis said this will happen likewise (Tthasthu). Accordingly, Jay and Vijay the Door Men (Dwar Pal) of Lord Vishnu's Vekunthalok, took birth in Asur Kul in Treta Yug and Lord Ram took incarnation (Avtaar) for their well being (Udhar). Ravna and his brother Kumbh Karan along with numerous Asurs (demoniac beings) were killed and each of them went to Satlok. In Dwaapar they took birth as Dantvakra and Shishupal, the associates of Kans, and Lord Krishna took incarnation (Avtaar) for their well being (Udhar). Dantvakra and Shishupal along with so many Asurs were killed by Lord Krishna and each of these Asurs (demoniac ones) went to Lord Krishna's dham (abode). When the Jeev gets Lord's Divya Lok on his death, he is called Badbhagi (great in destiny) as he gets Lord's Divya Lok which the Sadhu, saints, Rishi and sadhakas long for. For each of the Lord's incarnation (Avtaar), there are various reasons (Hetu) and to fulfill each of the reason (Hetu) Lord takes incarnation (Avtaar) for the welfare of Lord's devotees (Bhaktas). Ram Charit Manas states " RAM JANAM KE HETU ANEKA, PARAM VICHITRA EK TE EKA " . You can understand these only by participating in the Satsang and by carefully going through and understanding our holy scriptures like Shreemad Bhagwat, Ram Charit Manas, Shiv Mha Puran, Skand Puran, Vedas, Upnishaidas, Shruty and Samrity granthas and even sidh Chalisa like hanuman Chalisa, Durga Chalisa, Shive Chalisa and so on. Perhaps you do not know about the sacrifice of our great Rishis and Saints and that's why you are quoting the example of Jesus. Our Dadhichi Rishi sacrificed his body to give his bones (Asthiyan) to Indra Dev the king of Devtaas to make Vajra from the Rishi's bones (Asthiyan) for killing Vritasur Asur to save the Srishti from demolition. Sanatan Dharma possesses infinite knowledge of the Infinite Lord. No other religion possesses such a large variety of Holy Scriptures. There are four Vedas, 301 Upnishaidas, 18 Puranas, Vedant and enormous Saint Charitar, Saint Vaani, Guru Vaani etc. It is simply enormous! That's why it is stated in Ram Charit Manas " HARI ANANT HARI KATHA ANANTA , KAHI SUNI BAHU VIDHI SAB SANTA " . The Gatha (Katha) of Ananat Bhagwan, the One whose birth and death is not known to any body, the One who is unborn and do not die and the One who is beyond birth and death is INFINITE (Aseem, Athaha)! How can men like us who are definite, limited in life and strength can know his Katha. Sanatan Dharma is a non-violent religion. Do not be misconceived or misguided. Go to Satsang, read our holy scriptures and then only you will be able to express your true quest (Jigyas) for knowledge. May Bhagwan Shree Hari Har satisfy your doubts! Shubham Astu, RAJINDER MOHAN VOHRA -------------------------- Thank you for forwarding this letter. I believe Krishna never resorted to any violence - he tried to protect non-violence. Krishna never advised Arjuna to kill people or resort to violence. Can you show anywhere in GITA Krishna advising a war? Gods are to protect non-violence and to maintain dharma. They are not Saints. Lovingly Dr.Uday Pai -------------------------- Dear Sir: Perhaps Hindu Gods resort to " violence " so that Hindu people stay peaceful. Only Hinduism can create a Gandhi, as you pointed out, the staunches non-violent person. While other religion's God may not appear to be violent, the people of other religion appear to be more violent than Hindus, as can be observed by events today and by events of History. Viz. Followers of a " peaceful " Jesus initiated the Crusades. So maybe there is an inverse relationship between the behavior of Gods and their followers ?? (Based on my understanding, the old testament of the Christians is full of violence. " Slay the idolators, destroy the idols " , " leave no man, woman, child, animals of the enemy alive " to paraphrase some of the writings.) Also, the violence of the Hindu Gods is not mindless violence. There are some people who only listen to violence. For example, the terrorists who are bombing innocent people in India can only be handled thru like minded treatment. Perhaps, publicly blowing up a terrorist in the same place he planted bombs to kill innocent people is the only language he will listen to. So in that sense I wish Hindus would get more aggressive to seek justice. And Dharma requires this. Dilip Bhagat --------------------------- Hare Ram Hare Krishna Dear Sir, Pranam If your question has arisen out of a thirst to understand the God, then I whole heartedly welcome it and try to put my views as below. However if it has arisen with an intention of malice, then it is time to quit all false books/thoughts leading you to such confusions or debates and concentrate only on the divine Gita - the ultimate guide to reach the one and only God. According to the holy Gita, God is the most superior, the ultimate power, the invincible, and is always victorious. The common sense also confirms this, otherwise anyone can defeat God and he/she can become God. Just as living things are created by God, it is His duty to digest them within Himself and give life to new ones to maintain the balance of this universe. This digestion into Himself has happened in many ways - in the form of moksha to the Rushis who had spent a peaceful life worshipping Him throughout their life, in the form of death to those who approached a violent form of life and in several ways. This had been confirmed by the existence of Lord Krishna, who is the ONE and ONLY GOD in this world and Bhagavad Gita is the proof for it. The portraying of victory of good over evil have been depicted as VIOLENT for common man to understand but it is all part of his MAYA ! And remember it was the choice Jaya and Vijaya made to die in the hands of the God Himself three times as evil doers than to be his devotees and wait for the MOKSHA after 6 rebirths. And why do you focus only at these depictions and see it as a physical violence while there are plenty of instances in puranas where God had been so merciful and loving - mokhas to rushis, life to the dead, etc. I hope my explanation will answer you that God doesn't lose patience and resort to violence. Regarding your reference to Jesus, He was a messiah of peace who suffered and died for the people. A God is there to protect the good from evil. If God cannot protect himself in the hands of evil, how can he protect the good from the evil? From my perspectivie it is illogical to think that someone suffered pain in the past for the sins which will be committed by future generations. It should be the other way round. And the existence of Lord Krishna is the best example of the triumph of God over evil or mere mortals. He killed the evil and he was always victorious. He was so merciful to end his incarnation in the hands of his beloved devotee as per his promise in his previous incarnation as Lord Rama. I hope and pray that you and your son will read the divine Gita with a positive mind-set, as all of us should do, and attain Lord Krishna with our good thoughts and deeds. Hare Ram Hare Krishna SRIKANTH MOHAN KETHU --------------------------- Dear Sadak, The statement of Sri Iyer GA that Bagavan Shiva killed Kameswar. Dear Sir, Vayu Bagavan is wind, Varna Bagavan is Rain and so on. The demi gods are having No specific form. They are Pancha Boothas. Kameswar is not GOD or demi God. Kameswar is symbol of desire. Kama + Easwaran-- means Kama desire-- Easwaran ruler. Kameswaran is ruler of desires. Bagavan Shiva killed Kameswar by HIS 3rd eye. We can also kill desires by our 3rd eye Gyana located between 2 eye brows were thilak is put upon. Again-- Kama never leaves anyone by its nature. But it did not work out in case of Bagavan Shiva. Also purana says that Kameswar was given back the power. This Kameswar was sent by Indra to distrub Bagavan Vishnu while doing Yogic Tapas in Badrinath. Kameswar failed in his attempt and Sri Vishnu gave Menaka a very beautiful looking lady as present to Indra through Kameswar. These puranas have hidden concepts. B.Sathyanarayan --------------------------- Evil can not be fought with platitudes. For example if we stand with folded hands before terrorists then they will gain the upper hand. That is what our ancient books teach us. Our Gods fought evil even in Satyug and we should fight evil in Kaliyug too. That is the lesson for us. Even in Christian countries, they have armies and give death sentences to murderers. Remember Iraq and Afghanistan? Hari Shanker Deo ----------------------------- I don't think there should be so much concern about " Hindu " " Gods " . The word Hindu itself is a misnomer, and should not be used to characterize the Bharatyia philosphical traditions. Most linguists will agree that it started with the " Satem/hatem " divide in the IE languages, and the " hatem " group residing outside the geopolitical context of the subcontinent who corrupted Sindhu into Hindu. Sindhu was a part of the " Mahabharatm " of Krishna and not the whole. The Arabs do mention " Hind-va-Sind " in the 7-8th century chronicles, thereby distinguishing and extending the concept from mere " Sindhu " . But no " Hindu " inscriptions use the term until 15th century. There are also many " Gods " . Vishnu descends as avatar, but Shiva does not. The Gods do not always show fairness in their treatment and this is the reason sometimes they have to justify their actions by introducing " past life karma " , something obviously unverifiable by the majority of the commoners. The Ramayana story as popularly rendered omits certain crucial details from the Balmiki version relevant for this topic, like that of why Ravana had to be invited by Rama to perform the rites of initiation ( " Bodhana " ) of Chandi/Durga - the same rites carried out by the avatar of Vishnu to gain ultimate victory over Ravana. Ravana was the best " Brahmin " available (what happened to " caste " - the same " caste " which has even found its way into the Gita as something whose breakdown by the " women " and others leads to eventual destruction of " civilization " and " dharma " - the Asura clan Ravana, who fights and abducts women like the Kshatryias being a Brahmin!) for even Brahma had omitted Gayatri recitation for one " Sandhya " and was unfit as a " yagnik " (lets not go into the actual reason as to why he could not - as it might throw some lights on possible motivations even in this fountainhead of " Brahmanya " revelation). The " Gods " and the " Asuras " both derived from the same " father " , and to start with they were not even " immortal " . They had to coopt the asura " siblings " to extract " amrita " and then needed Vishnu to cheat them of their legitimate share. The Gods get tempted by the beauty of mortal women, like Ahalya, and seduce or rape them. It becomes convenient then later to invent " bad past Karma " to justify such unfair treatment of humans. In this the common Gods do resemble (and were perhaps in reality just deification of actual humans or modeled on the " aristocracy " of the time) the common historical behaviour of elite ruling class. The real strength of Bharatyia philosophy should be sought in a proper analysis and absorption of the Upanishads, the Gita, and the Mahabharatam - the last two being essentially statements on political society and individual's relation with that of the state and the social group. These have little to do with the " Gods " - Gods have minor roles in the Mahabharatam, the original source of the Gita. Gods are just a reflection of humanity, and should not be given so much importance. The Upanishads give a framework very much in compliance with modern science and logic, as to how humans should continue to explore the world around them and continuously update their knowledge - never to be stationary with one ossified belief without continuous requestioning ( " Charaibeti " ). The Mahabharatam and the Gita, edited out of their obvious later " priestly opportunistic addition " of support of unfair and unauthentic practices like " hereditary and for-life varna " gives the guiding principle for social interaction and the nature of the state - a crucial vision of nationhood embodied in this ideal of Krishna. " Gods " are not the primary messages of these core texts - they are mere additions by interested priests to extract benefits from society without contributing in real terms. " dikgajone " --------------------------- Sir, To my limited mind, there are two types of powers SUR (divine) and AASUR (demoniac). And Ishwara (God) also has to adopt the aasura (demoniac) powers in order to destroy the aasuri (demoniac) aspects in a aasur (demoniac) person. A Sur (Virtuous, Divine person) is always of positive behaviour. This is simplest and easiest way to understand. Ram Ji also killed AASURAs (demoniac men) because He is Ishwara (God), Himself, and does not need extra powers to switch between Sur (Divine) and AAsur (Demoniac) properties to accomplish a task. " apb1942 " ---------------------------- PRIOR POSTING Dear sadaks, First about Human-- Man kills man-Why? Enemity, Greed Etc Etc. Animals kill animals only for food. Hindu God never resort to Violence but terminate extremely Bad people for the betterment of human beings at large. Here the Gods benefit nothing, but they act to save human beings at large. It is depicted in such a manner by some that it looks like violence. Kans is maternal uncle of Sri Krishna. Kans jailed his parents, Devaki and Vasudev. Sri Krishna as child left Mathura, but Kans went on sending asuras (demoniac people) to kill Sri Krishna. Asuras came to Krishna from Mathura, but Krishna never went there to kill. In defense Sri Krishna killed Asuras. The sacred truth behind this killing is giving Mukthi (salvation) to them. When God incarnates and kills, it is divine to die in the hands of Bhagavan. Sri Krishna never killed Jarasand though he waged war several times. Duryodhan was not killed though he tried to rope up Krishna who came as messenger for Pandavas. These people were unfit to die in HIS hands. Several warnings were given to Kans to behave himself and since he failed he was killed. Besides Kans was door keeper at Vaikunth as Jaya/Vijaya. Due to ego there they were cursed by Sanakadhi Munis to be born on earth. Actually Kans after being killed went to Vaikunth. Sri Rama was quietly living in the forest, why should Ravana abduct and carry Mother Sita to Lanka? When Ravana lost war and became alone without arms in his hand, Sri Rama said to Ravana Go today think of your sins and come tomorrow. But Ravana came to wage war again knowing that he will be killed. So also other Gods did. Jesus was born as human acquired Gyana between the age 14 to 30 became saint. Normally saints or Sanyasins are forbidden to any type of killing. They allow other to kill them, as it is their knowledge that body alone is being destroyed, but not the Soul (Athuman). When Jesus rose from death with body of wounds it was astrial body (Non Destructable). His disciple never believed Jesus and tested Jesus' wound on his ribs by sending his pointing finger into the wound. This disciple finger is still not perished and remains an exhibit. Demons with strong powers can be killed by Gods only. Now take Maha Lakshmi who incarnated as Sri Andal in Srivalliputtur, was tought by her God father Sri Pria Alwar the good deeds of Sri Krishna. She fell in love with Krishna and wanted to marry Sri Krishna. She took to 30 days Dhanurmasa Vrath and in presence of Chola king and people she was taken abode of Sri Vishnu who gave Dharshan to all with Sanka, Chakra, four Arms Etc on Garuda. Gods appear (Not Born) looks like being born. Sri Krishna was with 108 occult powers when born. To people it looks as being born. Sri Rama or Sri Krishna opted to be kshatriya / yadava not as Brahmin. Brahmins are forbidden to kill. Sanyasin (ascetics) are tought to give in themselves, when someone strikes them. Like Adi Sankara/Buddha/ Christ. B.Sathyanarayan Some of the Demons / Ill-minded souls are hard to change with preachings alone. They have to be physically removed like weeds, because they go beyond repair and are harmful to mankind. Also these characters and killing by GOD need not be taken in the literal sense. To make common people like us to understand, some of these might have been personified, otherwise it is mostly how to control the inner evils like greed/ ego etc to attain divinity " mvssr75 " ------------------------------- -Shree Hari- Dear Iyer GA, What a blessing you have in a son that wants to debate such things with you and visa versa. A respectful correction.Yahweh(Christian/Judaic God) was involved in wholesale slaughter and genocide. When the hard shell around ones spiritual heart is broken, the taste for violence is lost. I am looking forward to the wise council of the Sadhaks. I think this is a very interesting question. With Respect and Divine Love. Mike Keenor -------------------------------- VIOLENCE is when you apply force UNLAWFULLY, SHOURYA is KARTAVYA (Duty) to restore DHARMA Dear Iyer, Lord krishna himself went to Su(Dhur)yodhana and adviced to give back what belonged to Pandavas. Did they heed? So lord had to KILL them to teach this world that if you try to keep that which does not belong to you, it will be disaster. Lord pardons who ever takes asylum in him, kills who goes against him (Nature). Gandhi policy does not apply to all cases. Can we sit in front of afzal guru fasting like Gandhi and make him repent for his attack on parliament? Please try it and then ask why krishna killed Kamsa. You yourself will take a weapon to restore Dharma if your son is hurt by any anti-social element and when they try to do again and again. Using Shourya is kartavya (duty) and is a part of restoring Dharma (righteousness) and shanti (peace). Violence is not a part of Hindu Gods or any body who protects Mother Land. It is called " shourya " Please note if our people in borders chant Om shanti, then bullets come from other side and may hit your chest. So a protector(God or any king/human being like soldier) has to use force to subdue non-social element to restore the civilizaton, else country will be weak and no place for Dharma. Hindu gods showed this ... to be strong and rise to occasion. Save the Dharma even if you have to kill your own brother. Non-violence should be practised but not at all times. HARI OM TATH SATH shiva Kumar shapur Dear Shri Ayer, I too am an old man, vegetarian and certainly non-violent. But I am a devotee of Durga. It is depicted in various forms including Mahishmardani. Similarly other Hindu Gods too may be shown in benevolent forms like Gyatri, Lord Vishnu or Brahma Even Shiva may be depicted in the dance pose. Dear friend you look inside. You will find a conflict going in all the time. Good ultimately prevails. But it is so because of a fight between the God and the devil. So my suggestion is enjoy the fights and always stand by the righteousness. With best wishes. Shridhar Pant -------------------------------- Shreemanji, There is a small anamoly. You say you are a senior citizen and haven't been able to realise the answer to your question in all these years ????? Is there any difference between Bhartiya (Indian/Hindu) and other Gods ? Read the scriptures with an open mind and NOT blind faith or dislike. It has all got to do with human psychology. You will discover the answer yourself. Pranam Sampuran Singh - GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: 1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify their doubts related to Gitaji shlokas. Therefore, responses which further clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be posted. 2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to substantiate your response. 3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas 4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting sadhaka's time. 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only. 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other organizations. 7. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone number, address etc. 8. Please do not address the response to a particular individual since the message is going to the entire group. 9. Due to the large readership, all responses may not be posted. 10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if content is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the group. 11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use to Sanskrit words only, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit bracketed wherever possible. MODERATOR Ram Ram ------------------------ Post message: Subscribe: - Un: - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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