Guest guest Posted December 10, 2008 Report Share Posted December 10, 2008 Shree Hari Ram Ram To respected and eminent Gita Talk members, I seek your guidance in attaining responses to the following - 1) In all the Vedas, the Puranas, the Upanishads, in Bhagavad Gita, in Ramayana, and in Ramcharitramanas, in which places is there any mention of Hindu, Hinduism, Hindu Dharma, or Hindu Sampradaaya (sect). Is there anything written about them? I am seeking in these scriptures actual and existing proof or evidence. 2) In those scriptures, where there is specific mention of Dharma and related matters, in that very scripture, the meaning of the word Dharma, please provide from the main scripture the specific quotation/extract, not someone's commentaries or lectures or exposition. Is that Dharma understood as being " Hindu mat " (hindu philosophy) or " Hindu Dharma " ? If this has been written, in which chapter is it? What are the supporting documents / background, please kindly share. 3) That which is authoritatively called Bharatiya Sanatana Dharma, that versus the Dharma in Gitaji that for which Shri Krishna Bhagwaan agreed to descend (incarnate) time and again for the establishment of Dharma, in that the so-called one-ness that is revealed, regarding that I seek the scriptural evidence (uskaa shastriya pramaan chahiye). If preceding the Shri Krishna-lila, this Sanatana Dharma was existing, then was Bhagwaan's words/knowledge (shabda-gyaan) incomplete that instead of saying Sanatana Dharma, simple said Dharma? 4) If Gita Talk instead of being for all of mankind, is simply only for participants from the Hindu sect/doctrine, then please share and make available the related principles / rules / practices. If in the language there appears to be some impatience, than please forgive me, and kindly grace me with your continued generosity. Vineet Sarvottam ------------------------------- -------------------------------- GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: 1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify their doubts related to Gitaji shalokas. Therefore, responses which further clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be posted. 2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to substantiate your response. 3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas 4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting sadhaka's time. 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only. 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other organizations. 7. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone number, address etc. 8. Please do not address the response to a particular individual since the message is going to the entire group. 9. Due to the large readership, all responses may not be posted. 10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if content is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the group. 11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use to Sanskrit words only, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit bracketed wherever possible. MODERATOR Ram Ram ------------------------ Post message: Subscribe: - Un: - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 10, 2008 Report Share Posted December 10, 2008 Shree Hari Ram Ram To respected and eminent Gita Talk members, I seek your guidance in attaining responses to the following - 1) In all the Vedas, the Puranas, the Upanishads, in Bhagavad Gita, in Ramayana, and in Ramcharitramanas, in which places is there any mention of Hindu, Hinduism, Hindu Dharma, or Hindu Sampradaaya (sect). Is there anything written about them? I am seeking in these scriptures actual and existing proof or evidence. 2) In those scriptures, where there is specific mention of Dharma and related matters, in that very scripture, the meaning of the word Dharma, please provide from the main scripture the specific quotation/extract, not someone's commentaries or lectures or exposition. Is that Dharma understood as being " Hindu mat " (hindu philosophy) or " Hindu Dharma " ? If this has been written, in which chapter is it? What are the supporting documents / background, please kindly share. 3) That which is authoritatively called Bharatiya Sanatana Dharma, that versus the Dharma in Gitaji that for which Shri Krishna Bhagwaan agreed to descend (incarnate) time and again for the establishment of Dharma, in that the so-called one-ness that is revealed, regarding that I seek the scriptural evidence (uskaa shastriya pramaan chahiye). If preceding the Shri Krishna-lila, this Sanatana Dharma was existing, then was Bhagwaan's words/knowledge (shabda-gyaan) incomplete that instead of saying Sanatana Dharma, simple said Dharma? 4) If Gita Talk instead of being for all of mankind, is simply only for participants from the Hindu sect/doctrine, then please share and make available the related principles / rules / practices. If in the language there appears to be some impatience, than please forgive me, and kindly grace me with your continued generosity. Vineet Sarvottam ------------------------------ NEW POSTING Gita is for people of all religions. That is why there is no mention of Hindu religion. Indians were called Hindus by invaders because of the Indus river and our faith was given the name. Hinduism is a way of life rather than a religion and there is nothing in the Gita which does not apply to people of other religions. Hari Shanker Deo ------------------------------ " Dhritih kshama damo asteyam shaucham-indriya nigrahah Dhi vidya satyam-akrodho dashakam dharma lakshanam " (Manu Smriti, Ch.VI-92) (1) Dhriti – Patience, (2) Kshama – Forgiveness, (3) Damah – Self Control, (4) Asteya – Not Stealing, (5) Shaucha – Purity, (6) Indriya Nigraha – Sense Control, (7) Dhi – Intellect, (8) Vidya – Learning/Knowledge, (9) Satya – Truth, (10) Akrodha – Absence of Anger. this shows that dharma is secular as there is no reference to personal belief, god, satan heaven , hell, angels etc... Dharma is called Dao in chinese and therefore Daoism is subsciption to this idea. one of the 3 texts of this tradition is 'Tao Te ching' Its opening line is 'the Dao that can be named is not the dao', and this falls in line with our thinking. Compare this to christian islamic judaic views that god has only one name jehova, allah, etc.. patanjali in chapter 3 says chose your favourite deity, this also means that god is relegated to do whatever suits you, its really not that important. therefore hinduism or dharma is not a religion in the judaic club, gang, sense. and traditionally hindus have said that it is not a religion but a 'way of life'. personally i have never d to the way of life buisness because then surely islam is an absolute 'way of life'. however in context of the above this can be understood as something other than belief, faith, etc... sanatana dharma has also been translated as the perennial philosophy by Aldous huxley, see his book of the same name and take a look at his novel, Island. there is only one dharma and all the rest are panths, paths. Ravi Bakhsi ------------------------------ The Word Hinduism was derived from the Indus civilisation. About 2,000 years ago when the Greeks sailed up the Indus River, they were surprised to find a civilisation that existed and they refer to them as the Indus. Later this was changed to Hindus. Mangal Deolal ------------------------------- -------------------------------- GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: 1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify their doubts related to Gitaji shalokas. Therefore, responses which further clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be posted. 2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to substantiate your response. 3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas 4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting sadhaka's time. 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only. 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other organizations. 7. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone number, address etc. 8. Please do not address the response to a particular individual since the message is going to the entire group. 9. Due to the large readership, all responses may not be posted. 10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if content is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the group. 11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use to Sanskrit words only, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit bracketed wherever possible. MODERATOR Ram Ram ------------------------ Post message: Subscribe: - Un: - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 11, 2008 Report Share Posted December 11, 2008 Shree Hari Ram Ram To respected and eminent Gita Talk members, I seek your guidance in attaining responses to the following - 1) In all the Vedas, the Puranas, the Upanishads, in Bhagavad Gita, in Ramayana, and in Ramcharitramanas, in which places is there any mention of Hindu, Hinduism, Hindu Dharma, or Hindu Sampradaaya (sect). Is there anything written about them? I am seeking in these scriptures actual and existing proof or evidence. 2) In those scriptures, where there is specific mention of Dharma and related matters, in that very scripture, the meaning of the word Dharma, please provide from the main scripture the specific quotation/extract, not someone's commentaries or lectures or exposition. Is that Dharma understood as being " Hindu mat " (hindu philosophy) or " Hindu Dharma " ? If this has been written, in which chapter is it? What are the supporting documents / background, please kindly share. 3) That which is authoritatively called Bharatiya Sanatana Dharma, that versus the Dharma in Gitaji that for which Shri Krishna Bhagwaan agreed to descend (incarnate) time and again for the establishment of Dharma, in that the so-called one-ness that is revealed, regarding that I seek the scriptural evidence (uskaa shastriya pramaan chahiye). If preceding the Shri Krishna-lila, this Sanatana Dharma was existing, then was Bhagwaan's words/knowledge (shabda-gyaan) incomplete that instead of saying Sanatana Dharma, simple said Dharma? 4) If Gita Talk instead of being for all of mankind, is simply only for participants from the Hindu sect/doctrine, then please share and make available the related principles / rules / practices. If in the language there appears to be some impatience, than please forgive me, and kindly grace me with your continued generosity. Vineet Sarvottam ------------------------------ NEW POSTING Namaskar I have gone through the mail " Misunderstanding of Dharma with Hinduism " . It is absolutely right the Hinduism has been misunderstood with dharma. It was started by britishers and has been followed by our politicians. Also, this is also true that no one has ever heard the word " HINDU " or " HINDUTVA " in any of our bhartiya granthas. All other related words like " HINDUTVA " , " HINDUSTAN " , " HINDUSTANI " , " HIND " , " HINDI " are derived from the word " HINDU " . So the question is that from where this word " HINDU " came from? Well, it was started, when Mugals shown their interest in our country " AKHAND BHARAT " (Incl. Present Bharat, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Nepal, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, Bhutan). They (Mugals) used to call " SINDHU " to the people who lives at the eastern side and the banks of River SINDU. But due to language problem they pronounce is as " HINDU " . Therefore according to them (Mugals), all the peoples living in Bharat, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Nepal, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, Bhutan are HINDU. Than how it could be HINDU DHARMA? Dharma is entirely different from HINDU. Hindu means a Sanskriti, the Culture, the Living Style of Bharat. According to our Vedas, Bhagvat Gita the word " Dharma " denotes the certain important Karmas (Must do work or Duties) of a human being like " Mtri Dharma (Duties & Responsibilities towards your Mother) " , " Pitri Dharma (Duties & Responsibilities towards your Father) " , " Desh Dharma (Duties & Responsibilities towards your Mother Land) " etc. Both the words " HINDU " & " DHARMA " have nothing to do with religion or caste. So i request all the readers to spread this fact as much as possible and understand the real meaning of " HINDU " & " DHARMA " Dhanyavad Avadhesh Didwania ----------------------------- My dear Vineet Sarvotam, My respects to all in this forum.....kindly allow me to share what I have heard from others in regard to the word " Hindu " . My opening words are not particularly " authoritative " so please kindly forgive me, but what I have to say will certainly be of interest in your discussion. Firstly, I have heard many times through the years, coming from many sadhaks, is that the word " Hindu " was coined by the British. They were unable to properly pronounce the word " Sindhus " in regard to the community/culture of individuals living on the bank of the Sindhus River, so the word " Hindu " came into the lanuauge. On a trip I made to India in the year 2000, I was on a small plane between one large city and another, and somehow or other, (we know the hand of the Lord is everywhere) the seat next to me was occupied by a sannyasi from Hrshikesh. I was conversing with a business man in a suit next to him, and explaiing this exact same thing, about the word Hindu being no where in the Vedas, and the business man turned to the sannyas (who did not speak English) and asked him about this, then turned to me, and said, " He says you are absolutely correrct. " I was amazed that the business man had no idea, though he was from India. Little by little, I have had to learn the sad truth that many born in India do not know what is Sanatan Dharma, nor the destructive influences of the British....or how to live by the teachings of Gita. I pray that those who do undeerstand this continually seek ways to spread it to others. There is a vrery nice section mentioned in a booklet called Sri Hari Nama Maha Mantra....compiled by Srila B.V. Narayana Maharaj.....there the Srimad Bhagavatam is quoted (1.2.8) " dharmah svanusthitah pumsam, visvaksena-kathasu yah.......notpadayed yadi ratim, shrama eva hi kevalam " ..... " The main purpose of varnasrama- dharma is to simplify the life of a person who is performing his natural occupational duty, so that he has sufficient time to hear hari-katha. However, if an attraction for hari-katha is not inspired, then all the reilgious activities he performs in accordance with varnasrama-dharma will be so much useless labour. " Respectfully, Mahalaksmi Dasi -------------------------------Dear Shri Vineet Sarvottam, All your questions are very relevant to appreciate what Dharma is. Is Sanatna Dharma same as Hindu Dharma. With my limited knowledge I would like to answer your doubts/points as below. Hindu word is not mentioned in many of our scriptures as for a number of centuries it related to residents of Hindustan i.e. areas EAST of Sindhu river (Indus) pronounced in Persian language as Hindu river. Even the word India is from Indus river as pronounced by Greeks. By 15th century A.D Hindu word acquired some religious connotation as in Adi Grantah Sahib Guru Nanak writes Turki Kaane and Hindu Anne i.e. Muslims were half blind and Hindu totally blind to God's Vedic religion. Guru Nanak tried his best to revive Vedas being himself belonging to BEDI family for whom Vedas were the supreme scriptures. Still the word Hindu was not fully accepted as relating to religion. Even today if a Muslim goes to Egypt he is known as HINDI i.e from Hindustan. For the first time in the 19th century when first Census was taken by British Government in India after 1857, All those religions which originated from out side India like Islam, Christianity, Jews etc their followers were counted separately and all religions/sects/cults which originated from India were clubbed as Hindu religion. Thus this practice is even followed today by government of India. When we say Hindus are over 80% it means Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists, Jains, Kabir panthis, Ganpatias, Arya samajists etc. The word Dharma first appeared in Rig Veda where it is mentioned " Rtm, Satyam, Dharmmam " Rta- the cosmic laws of social, moral and physical order are eternal truths (satyam) and following these Rta (laws) is Vedic Dharma. Later when due to certain vested interets some influential and poewerful people found difficult to follow Rta, many interpretation of Dharma started like duty, which binds, way of life etc. Only followers of Vedic metaphysics can appreciate the original meaning of Dharma. Thus Hindu Dharma, Sanatan Dharma (meaning eternal religion of Vedas) would largely mean the same thing. Infact for any individual if Vedas are the supreme scriptures, he/she is a follower of Sanatan Dharma. Since Bhagavad Gita is largely based on Vedic metaphysics, Dharma would mean Sanatan Dharma. Bhagavd Gita clealy says in Chapter 16 that study of Vedas is the supreme virtue. Any interpretation which contardict Vedic interpretation is not valid in Vedic Sanatan Dharma If still some doubts persist I can clarify further with my very limited knowledge. with regards, Prem Sabhlok -------------------------------- Dear Sadak, At one time only Hinduism existed. So it called Hinduism, Hindu Dharma etc. Later on came Jainism, Buddism, Christanity, and Islam to India when people started travelling by ships. Hindu Dharma purely meant Dharma in common to all living and non living things. One can see in many histories that God went to rescue his devote irrespective of caste and creed. Even Muslim Kabir Doss was devote of Panduranga. A slaughter Dharma Vajer in Maha Bharat is praised of his Pitru Bakthi. There are Dharmas concerning, women (Sree Dharma), Purusha (Man), Raja, Sanyasi, Etc. Then there is Prayachita Dharma, Bagavatha dharma, Deva Dharma, Surya Dharma, Pancha Bootha Dharma so on. These Dharmas are there in perfect scripts. All Dharmas are taken care by 33 crore demi gods, like Vayu, Agni, Indra etc. There is one called Yuga Dharma. That is the earth and it` s planets have Chatur yuga. Namely Satya Yuga, Thretha Yuga, Dwapara Yuga and Kali yuga. Longest is Satya Yuga. Shortest is Kali yuga around 14300 years. That is why Bramaji is depicted with 4 heads representing 4 yugas. This is also said in Old testament of Christanity as the world is square. In Geetha Bagavan says everything rest only on Dharma. Dharma means the rightfulness. In Ramayan scores of dharmas are said. Even drinking water by left hand is Adharma. Dharma is clearly said about food. Dharma is said about how man from morning to evening should behave related to environment. PLEASE NOTE ALL THESE DHARMAS ARE FOR NOT ONLY FOR HINDUS, BUT FOR SOCIETY AT LARGE. Bagavan Sri Krishna said that HE will incarnate from time to time, means that HE comes to protect the people who follow all these Dharmas. Such people are called Dharmathumas. HE does not come for people who are not rightious. We can see mass of humans killed for verious reasons. But if ONE dharmathuma is attacked, Bagavan response is immediate. In important scripts it said that in the event of abuses of God, God remains silent. But in the event of very small neglect/discomfort caused to HIS devote, God respondes at once. To give evidence from scripts/upanashid/puranas it is lengthy. Besides Bagavan says these are to be taught to a person who is consistant in seeking truth able to practice basic teachings of Sanathana Dharma. To learn incomplete a small science of human body MBBS one needs 5 years. To learn these Dharmas one needs contiuous effort day in and day out. Jai Sri Krishna baiya sathyanarayan ----------------------------- =============================================================== PRIOR POSTING Gita is for people of all religions. That is why there is no mention of Hindu religion. Indians were called Hindus by invaders because of the Indus river and our faith was given the name. Hinduism is a way of life rather than a religion and there is nothing in the Gita which does not apply to people of other religions. Hari Shanker Deo ------------------------------ " Dhritih kshama damo asteyam shaucham-indriya nigrahah Dhi vidya satyam-akrodho dashakam dharma lakshanam " (Manu Smriti, Ch.VI-92) (1) Dhriti – Patience, (2) Kshama – Forgiveness, (3) Damah – Self Control, (4) Asteya – Not Stealing, (5) Shaucha – Purity, (6) Indriya Nigraha – Sense Control, (7) Dhi – Intellect, (8) Vidya – Learning/Knowledge, (9) Satya – Truth, (10) Akrodha – Absence of Anger. this shows that dharma is secular as there is no reference to personal belief, god, satan heaven , hell, angels etc... Dharma is called Dao in chinese and therefore Daoism is subsciption to this idea. one of the 3 texts of this tradition is 'Tao Te ching' Its opening line is 'the Dao that can be named is not the dao', and this falls in line with our thinking. Compare this to christian islamic judaic views that god has only one name jehova, allah, etc.. patanjali in chapter 3 says chose your favourite deity, this also means that god is relegated to do whatever suits you, its really not that important. therefore hinduism or dharma is not a religion in the judaic club, gang, sense. and traditionally hindus have said that it is not a religion but a 'way of life'. personally i have never d to the way of life buisness because then surely islam is an absolute 'way of life'. however in context of the above this can be understood as something other than belief, faith, etc... sanatana dharma has also been translated as the perennial philosophy by Aldous huxley, see his book of the same name and take a look at his novel, Island. there is only one dharma and all the rest are panths, paths. Ravi Bakhsi ------------------------------ The Word Hinduism was derived from the Indus civilisation. About 2,000 years ago when the Greeks sailed up the Indus River, they were surprised to find a civilisation that existed and they refer to them as the Indus. Later this was changed to Hindus. Mangal Deolal ------------------------------- -------------------------------- GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: 1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify their doubts related to Gitaji shalokas. Therefore, responses which further clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be posted. 2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to substantiate your response. 3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas 4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting sadhaka's time. 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only. 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other organizations. 7. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone number, address etc. 8. Please do not address the response to a particular individual since the message is going to the entire group. 9. Due to the large readership, all responses may not be posted. 10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if content is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the group. 11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use to Sanskrit words only, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit bracketed wherever possible. MODERATOR Ram Ram ------------------------ Post message: Subscribe: - Un: - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 11, 2008 Report Share Posted December 11, 2008 Shree Hari Ram Ram To respected and eminent Gita Talk members, I seek your guidance in attaining responses to the following - 1) In all the Vedas, the Puranas, the Upanishads, in Bhagavad Gita, in Ramayana, and in Ramcharitramanas, in which places is there any mention of Hindu, Hinduism, Hindu Dharma, or Hindu Sampradaaya (sect). Is there anything written about them? I am seeking in these scriptures actual and existing proof or evidence. 2) In those scriptures, where there is specific mention of Dharma and related matters, in that very scripture, the meaning of the word Dharma, please provide from the main scripture the specific quotation/extract, not someone's commentaries or lectures or exposition. Is that Dharma understood as being " Hindu mat " (hindu philosophy) or " Hindu Dharma " ? If this has been written, in which chapter is it? What are the supporting documents / background, please kindly share. 3) That which is authoritatively called Bharatiya Sanatana Dharma, that versus the Dharma in Gitaji that for which Shri Krishna Bhagwaan agreed to descend (incarnate) time and again for the establishment of Dharma, in that the so-called one-ness that is revealed, regarding that I seek the scriptural evidence (uskaa shastriya pramaan chahiye). If preceding the Shri Krishna-lila, this Sanatana Dharma was existing, then was Bhagwaan's words/knowledge (shabda-gyaan) incomplete that instead of saying Sanatana Dharma, simple said Dharma? 4) If Gita Talk instead of being for all of mankind, is simply only for participants from the Hindu sect/doctrine, then please share and make available the related principles / rules / practices. If in the language there appears to be some impatience, than please forgive me, and kindly grace me with your continued generosity. Vineet Sarvottam ------------------------------ NEW POSTING Respected readers, My daNdavats to all in this forum..... So many beautiful thoughts......I had one more piece of information I wished to share, which is that the word " dharma " I have always heard translates as " that which one cannot sepatate from one's very existence " . So, the dharma of sugar is sweetness, the dharma of water is wetness, and the dharma of the soul is service. An intelligent person will ask, " OK, so who or what can I serve eternally? " Then the undeerstandig of Sanatana dharma, meaning more or less, our eternal occupation......service to the Lord. When coming to Gita, and the ancient Vedic tradition, one finds so many wonderful, indepth and personal concepts of what is pleasing to the service of Radha Krsna, and how to act day by day, minute by minute, instructions on how to bath, how to disciplie the mind, how to learn self restraint, peacefulness, etc. etc. This is all preliminary to the goal, a loving relationship with God. reSpectfully, Mahalaksmi Dasi ----------------------------- Namaste It is correct that, the word HINDU is not mentioned in Vedas, etc. According to Persian language, Hindu means, Kafir, chor, etc. The Persians for whatever reasons, they called Indians Hindus and we Indian also started calling us HINDU without knowing the real meaning. In Mumbai underworld, some gangstars are called in different depending upon their way of attacking, as " _____ Yeda " (mad person). Later it has become a part of his name. Likewise, we Indians continued with this bad name. I think this is mentioned in detail in Swamy Dayanand Saraswati's (Founder of Arya Samaj) " Satyartha Prakash " in Hindi and " Light of Truth " in English. He deals with it. H.K. Sudhakara ------------------------- Understanding Hindu Dharma. " Flow on self-purifying (H)indu with expansiveness... " Rig Veda. IX.96.21 Indu/Sindhu/Hindu/Sanatan Dharma/Vedic Dharma/Yoga Dharma--it is all the same. Those who would seek to separate the aforementioned only serve to tear apart. We see the results today of this division. We have those who unethically divorce the various [Hindu] Yogas from Hinduism; those who try and separate Sanantan Dharma and Hinduism. " A house divided... " Swami Param ------------------------------- PRIOR POSTING Namaskar I have gone through the mail " Misunderstanding of Dharma with Hinduism " . It is absolutely right the Hinduism has been misunderstood with dharma. It was started by britishers and has been followed by our politicians. Also, this is also true that no one has ever heard the word " HINDU " or " HINDUTVA " in any of our bhartiya granthas. All other related words like " HINDUTVA " , " HINDUSTAN " , " HINDUSTANI " , " HIND " , " HINDI " are derived from the word " HINDU " . So the question is that from where this word " HINDU " came from? Well, it was started, when Mugals shown their interest in our country " AKHAND BHARAT " (Incl. Present Bharat, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Nepal, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, Bhutan). They (Mugals) used to call " SINDHU " to the people who lives at the eastern side and the banks of River SINDU. But due to language problem they pronounce is as " HINDU " . Therefore according to them (Mugals), all the peoples living in Bharat, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Nepal, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, Bhutan are HINDU. Than how it could be HINDU DHARMA? Dharma is entirely different from HINDU. Hindu means a Sanskriti, the Culture, the Living Style of Bharat. According to our Vedas, Bhagvat Gita the word " Dharma " denotes the certain important Karmas (Must do work or Duties) of a human being like " Mtri Dharma (Duties & Responsibilities towards your Mother) " , " Pitri Dharma (Duties & Responsibilities towards your Father) " , " Desh Dharma (Duties & Responsibilities towards your Mother Land) " etc. Both the words " HINDU " & " DHARMA " have nothing to do with religion or caste. So i request all the readers to spread this fact as much as possible and understand the real meaning of " HINDU " & " DHARMA " Dhanyavad Avadhesh Didwania ----------------------------- My dear Vineet Sarvotam, My respects to all in this forum.....kindly allow me to share what I have heard from others in regard to the word " Hindu " . My opening words are not particularly " authoritative " so please kindly forgive me, but what I have to say will certainly be of interest in your discussion. Firstly, I have heard many times through the years, coming from many sadhaks, is that the word " Hindu " was coined by the British. They were unable to properly pronounce the word " Sindhus " in regard to the community/culture of individuals living on the bank of the Sindhus River, so the word " Hindu " came into the lanuauge. On a trip I made to India in the year 2000, I was on a small plane between one large city and another, and somehow or other, (we know the hand of the Lord is everywhere) the seat next to me was occupied by a sannyasi from Hrshikesh. I was conversing with a business man in a suit next to him, and explaiing this exact same thing, about the word Hindu being no where in the Vedas, and the business man turned to the sannyas (who did not speak English) and asked him about this, then turned to me, and said, " He says you are absolutely correrct. " I was amazed that the business man had no idea, though he was from India. Little by little, I have had to learn the sad truth that many born in India do not know what is Sanatan Dharma, nor the destructive influences of the British....or how to live by the teachings of Gita. I pray that those who do undeerstand this continually seek ways to spread it to others. There is a vrery nice section mentioned in a booklet called Sri Hari Nama Maha Mantra....compiled by Srila B.V. Narayana Maharaj.....there the Srimad Bhagavatam is quoted (1.2.8) " dharmah svanusthitah pumsam, visvaksena-kathasu yah.......notpadayed yadi ratim, shrama eva hi kevalam " ..... " The main purpose of varnasrama- dharma is to simplify the life of a person who is performing his natural occupational duty, so that he has sufficient time to hear hari-katha. However, if an attraction for hari-katha is not inspired, then all the reilgious activities he performs in accordance with varnasrama-dharma will be so much useless labour. " Respectfully, Mahalaksmi Dasi -------------------------------Dear Shri Vineet Sarvottam, All your questions are very relevant to appreciate what Dharma is. Is Sanatna Dharma same as Hindu Dharma. With my limited knowledge I would like to answer your doubts/points as below. Hindu word is not mentioned in many of our scriptures as for a number of centuries it related to residents of Hindustan i.e. areas EAST of Sindhu river (Indus) pronounced in Persian language as Hindu river. Even the word India is from Indus river as pronounced by Greeks. By 15th century A.D Hindu word acquired some religious connotation as in Adi Grantah Sahib Guru Nanak writes Turki Kaane and Hindu Anne i.e. Muslims were half blind and Hindu totally blind to God's Vedic religion. Guru Nanak tried his best to revive Vedas being himself belonging to BEDI family for whom Vedas were the supreme scriptures. Still the word Hindu was not fully accepted as relating to religion. Even today if a Muslim goes to Egypt he is known as HINDI i.e from Hindustan. For the first time in the 19th century when first Census was taken by British Government in India after 1857, All those religions which originated from out side India like Islam, Christianity, Jews etc their followers were counted separately and all religions/sects/cults which originated from India were clubbed as Hindu religion. Thus this practice is even followed today by government of India. When we say Hindus are over 80% it means Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists, Jains, Kabir panthis, Ganpatias, Arya samajists etc. The word Dharma first appeared in Rig Veda where it is mentioned " Rtm, Satyam, Dharmmam " Rta- the cosmic laws of social, moral and physical order are eternal truths (satyam) and following these Rta (laws) is Vedic Dharma. Later when due to certain vested interets some influential and poewerful people found difficult to follow Rta, many interpretation of Dharma started like duty, which binds, way of life etc. Only followers of Vedic metaphysics can appreciate the original meaning of Dharma. Thus Hindu Dharma, Sanatan Dharma (meaning eternal religion of Vedas) would largely mean the same thing. Infact for any individual if Vedas are the supreme scriptures, he/she is a follower of Sanatan Dharma. Since Bhagavad Gita is largely based on Vedic metaphysics, Dharma would mean Sanatan Dharma. Bhagavd Gita clealy says in Chapter 16 that study of Vedas is the supreme virtue. Any interpretation which contardict Vedic interpretation is not valid in Vedic Sanatan Dharma If still some doubts persist I can clarify further with my very limited knowledge. with regards, Prem Sabhlok -------------------------------- Dear Sadak, At one time only Hinduism existed. So it called Hinduism, Hindu Dharma etc. Later on came Jainism, Buddism, Christanity, and Islam to India when people started travelling by ships. Hindu Dharma purely meant Dharma in common to all living and non living things. One can see in many histories that God went to rescue his devote irrespective of caste and creed. Even Muslim Kabir Doss was devote of Panduranga. A slaughter Dharma Vajer in Maha Bharat is praised of his Pitru Bakthi. There are Dharmas concerning, women (Sree Dharma), Purusha (Man), Raja, Sanyasi, Etc. Then there is Prayachita Dharma, Bagavatha dharma, Deva Dharma, Surya Dharma, Pancha Bootha Dharma so on. These Dharmas are there in perfect scripts. All Dharmas are taken care by 33 crore demi gods, like Vayu, Agni, Indra etc. There is one called Yuga Dharma. That is the earth and it` s planets have Chatur yuga. Namely Satya Yuga, Thretha Yuga, Dwapara Yuga and Kali yuga. Longest is Satya Yuga. Shortest is Kali yuga around 14300 years. That is why Bramaji is depicted with 4 heads representing 4 yugas. This is also said in Old testament of Christanity as the world is square. In Geetha Bagavan says everything rest only on Dharma. Dharma means the rightfulness. In Ramayan scores of dharmas are said. Even drinking water by left hand is Adharma. Dharma is clearly said about food. Dharma is said about how man from morning to evening should behave related to environment. PLEASE NOTE ALL THESE DHARMAS ARE FOR NOT ONLY FOR HINDUS, BUT FOR SOCIETY AT LARGE. Bagavan Sri Krishna said that HE will incarnate from time to time, means that HE comes to protect the people who follow all these Dharmas. Such people are called Dharmathumas. HE does not come for people who are not rightious. We can see mass of humans killed for verious reasons. But if ONE dharmathuma is attacked, Bagavan response is immediate. In important scripts it said that in the event of abuses of God, God remains silent. But in the event of very small neglect/discomfort caused to HIS devote, God respondes at once. To give evidence from scripts/upanashid/puranas it is lengthy. Besides Bagavan says these are to be taught to a person who is consistant in seeking truth able to practice basic teachings of Sanathana Dharma. To learn incomplete a small science of human body MBBS one needs 5 years. To learn these Dharmas one needs contiuous effort day in and day out. Jai Sri Krishna baiya sathyanarayan ----------------------------- =============================================================== PRIOR POSTING Gita is for people of all religions. That is why there is no mention of Hindu religion. Indians were called Hindus by invaders because of the Indus river and our faith was given the name. Hinduism is a way of life rather than a religion and there is nothing in the Gita which does not apply to people of other religions. Hari Shanker Deo ------------------------------ " Dhritih kshama damo asteyam shaucham-indriya nigrahah Dhi vidya satyam-akrodho dashakam dharma lakshanam " (Manu Smriti, Ch.VI-92) (1) Dhriti – Patience, (2) Kshama – Forgiveness, (3) Damah – Self Control, (4) Asteya – Not Stealing, (5) Shaucha – Purity, (6) Indriya Nigraha – Sense Control, (7) Dhi – Intellect, (8) Vidya – Learning/Knowledge, (9) Satya – Truth, (10) Akrodha – Absence of Anger. this shows that dharma is secular as there is no reference to personal belief, god, satan heaven , hell, angels etc... Dharma is called Dao in chinese and therefore Daoism is subsciption to this idea. one of the 3 texts of this tradition is 'Tao Te ching' Its opening line is 'the Dao that can be named is not the dao', and this falls in line with our thinking. Compare this to christian islamic judaic views that god has only one name jehova, allah, etc.. patanjali in chapter 3 says chose your favourite deity, this also means that god is relegated to do whatever suits you, its really not that important. therefore hinduism or dharma is not a religion in the judaic club, gang, sense. and traditionally hindus have said that it is not a religion but a 'way of life'. personally i have never d to the way of life buisness because then surely islam is an absolute 'way of life'. however in context of the above this can be understood as something other than belief, faith, etc... sanatana dharma has also been translated as the perennial philosophy by Aldous huxley, see his book of the same name and take a look at his novel, Island. there is only one dharma and all the rest are panths, paths. Ravi Bakhsi ------------------------------ The Word Hinduism was derived from the Indus civilisation. About 2,000 years ago when the Greeks sailed up the Indus River, they were surprised to find a civilisation that existed and they refer to them as the Indus. Later this was changed to Hindus. Mangal Deolal ------------------------------- -------------------------------- GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: 1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify their doubts related to Gitaji shalokas. Therefore, responses which further clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be posted. 2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to substantiate your response. 3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas 4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting sadhaka's time. 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only. 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other organizations. 7. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone number, address etc. 8. Please do not address the response to a particular individual since the message is going to the entire group. 9. Due to the large readership, all responses may not be posted. 10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if content is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the group. 11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use to Sanskrit words only, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit bracketed wherever possible. MODERATOR Ram Ram ------------------------ Post message: Subscribe: - Un: - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 14, 2008 Report Share Posted December 14, 2008 Shree Hari Ram Ram To respected and eminent Gita Talk members, I seek your guidance in attaining responses to the following - 1) In all the Vedas, the Puranas, the Upanishads, in Bhagavad Gita, in Ramayana, and in Ramcharitramanas, in which places is there any mention of Hindu, Hinduism, Hindu Dharma, or Hindu Sampradaaya (sect). Is there anything written about them? I am seeking in these scriptures actual and existing proof or evidence. 2) In those scriptures, where there is specific mention of Dharma and related matters, in that very scripture, the meaning of the word Dharma, please provide from the main scripture the specific quotation/extract, not someone's commentaries or lectures or exposition. Is that Dharma understood as being " Hindu mat " (hindu philosophy) or " Hindu Dharma " ? If this has been written, in which chapter is it? What are the supporting documents / background, please kindly share. 3) That which is authoritatively called Bharatiya Sanatana Dharma, that versus the Dharma in Gitaji that for which Shri Krishna Bhagwaan agreed to descend (incarnate) time and again for the establishment of Dharma, in that the so-called one-ness that is revealed, regarding that I seek the scriptural evidence (uskaa shastriya pramaan chahiye). If preceding the Shri Krishna-lila, this Sanatana Dharma was existing, then was Bhagwaan's words/knowledge (shabda-gyaan) incomplete that instead of saying Sanatana Dharma, simple said Dharma? 4) If Gita Talk instead of being for all of mankind, is simply only for participants from the Hindu sect/doctrine, then please share and make available the related principles / rules / practices. If in the language there appears to be some impatience, than please forgive me, and kindly grace me with your continued generosity. Vineet Sarvottam ------------------------------ NEW POSTING Dear All, MEANING OF THE WORD " HINDU " I recently joined this group and found that there are interesting brain storming sessions going on. Can someone please help me understand exact roots of word 'Hindu' ? I could find roots for 'Vedic' but not 'Hindu' anywhere in Bhagwad Gita. If someone please shed some light, it will be great help to our research group. Regards, -Nisarg Joshi Serial Vedic Learner ----------------------------- Dear Shri Vineetji, I read your mail with interest.Put briefly, Lord Krishna in the Gita [or whoever compiled it from earlier version]went beyond the basic tenets of vedas/vedanta/Upanishads.To say that Gitacharya merely summarised what was in the Upanishads is not correct. In this respect,the word Dharma used by the Lord means Sanatana Dharma (Eternal Law, Eternal Principles) and has wide meaning. Lord Krishna did not speak for Hindus only. Infact He says that whatever God/gods you may worship, it ends up in Me---that is Universal Spirit. There is no use in discussing these things from purely historical or theological perspective. Various sampradayas or traditions/sects came right from the time of Kashmir Saivism or even earlier. The worship of Vishnu brought in Puranas with emphasis on Srimad Bhagavatam...then many sects came into being. Further there is no Hindu Dharma, Christian Dharma or Islam Dharma or Jewish Dharma. As I understand, there is only one Dharma, but if you take Dharma to mean a religion or traditions, there are many. Dharma means only 'righteousness' and not 'rites.' The word Hindu or Hindu faith or religion came much later, not in Vedic/Upanishadic times...period. In Shirdi Sai Smaran, ---Dr N K Srinivasan -------------------------- Shree Hari Ram Ram All Sadhaks, please include reference to the particular scripture, as it is important for posting to this topic. Gita Talk Moderator Ram Ram ---------------------------- -------------------------- PRIOR POSTING Respected readers, My daNdavats to all in this forum..... So many beautiful thoughts......I had one more piece of information I wished to share, which is that the word " dharma " I have always heard translates as " that which one cannot sepatate from one's very existence " . So, the dharma of sugar is sweetness, the dharma of water is wetness, and the dharma of the soul is service. An intelligent person will ask, " OK, so who or what can I serve eternally? " Then the undeerstandig of Sanatana dharma, meaning more or less, our eternal occupation......service to the Lord. When coming to Gita, and the ancient Vedic tradition, one finds so many wonderful, indepth and personal concepts of what is pleasing to the service of Radha Krsna, and how to act day by day, minute by minute, instructions on how to bath, how to disciplie the mind, how to learn self restraint, peacefulness, etc. etc. This is all preliminary to the goal, a loving relationship with God. reSpectfully, Mahalaksmi Dasi ----------------------------- Namaste It is correct that, the word HINDU is not mentioned in Vedas, etc. According to Persian language, Hindu means, Kafir, chor, etc. The Persians for whatever reasons, they called Indians Hindus and we Indian also started calling us HINDU without knowing the real meaning. In Mumbai underworld, some gangstars are called in different depending upon their way of attacking, as " _____ Yeda " (mad person). Later it has become a part of his name. Likewise, we Indians continued with this bad name. I think this is mentioned in detail in Swamy Dayanand Saraswati's (Founder of Arya Samaj) " Satyartha Prakash " in Hindi and " Light of Truth " in English. He deals with it. H.K. Sudhakara ------------------------- Understanding Hindu Dharma. " Flow on self-purifying (H)indu with expansiveness... " Rig Veda. IX.96.21 Indu/Sindhu/Hindu/Sanatan Dharma/Vedic Dharma/Yoga Dharma--it is all the same. Those who would seek to separate the aforementioned only serve to tear apart. We see the results today of this division. We have those who unethically divorce the various [Hindu] Yogas from Hinduism; those who try and separate Sanantan Dharma and Hinduism. " A house divided... " Swami Param ------------------------------- PRIOR POSTING Namaskar I have gone through the mail " Misunderstanding of Dharma with Hinduism " . It is absolutely right the Hinduism has been misunderstood with dharma. It was started by britishers and has been followed by our politicians. Also, this is also true that no one has ever heard the word " HINDU " or " HINDUTVA " in any of our bhartiya granthas. All other related words like " HINDUTVA " , " HINDUSTAN " , " HINDUSTANI " , " HIND " , " HINDI " are derived from the word " HINDU " . So the question is that from where this word " HINDU " came from? Well, it was started, when Mugals shown their interest in our country " AKHAND BHARAT " (Incl. Present Bharat, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Nepal, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, Bhutan). They (Mugals) used to call " SINDHU " to the people who lives at the eastern side and the banks of River SINDU. But due to language problem they pronounce is as " HINDU " . Therefore according to them (Mugals), all the peoples living in Bharat, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Nepal, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, Bhutan are HINDU. Than how it could be HINDU DHARMA? Dharma is entirely different from HINDU. Hindu means a Sanskriti, the Culture, the Living Style of Bharat. According to our Vedas, Bhagvat Gita the word " Dharma " denotes the certain important Karmas (Must do work or Duties) of a human being like " Mtri Dharma (Duties & Responsibilities towards your Mother) " , " Pitri Dharma (Duties & Responsibilities towards your Father) " , " Desh Dharma (Duties & Responsibilities towards your Mother Land) " etc. Both the words " HINDU " & " DHARMA " have nothing to do with religion or caste. So i request all the readers to spread this fact as much as possible and understand the real meaning of " HINDU " & " DHARMA " Dhanyavad Avadhesh Didwania ----------------------------- My dear Vineet Sarvotam, My respects to all in this forum.....kindly allow me to share what I have heard from others in regard to the word " Hindu " . My opening words are not particularly " authoritative " so please kindly forgive me, but what I have to say will certainly be of interest in your discussion. Firstly, I have heard many times through the years, coming from many sadhaks, is that the word " Hindu " was coined by the British. They were unable to properly pronounce the word " Sindhus " in regard to the community/culture of individuals living on the bank of the Sindhus River, so the word " Hindu " came into the lanuauge. On a trip I made to India in the year 2000, I was on a small plane between one large city and another, and somehow or other, (we know the hand of the Lord is everywhere) the seat next to me was occupied by a sannyasi from Hrshikesh. I was conversing with a business man in a suit next to him, and explaiing this exact same thing, about the word Hindu being no where in the Vedas, and the business man turned to the sannyas (who did not speak English) and asked him about this, then turned to me, and said, " He says you are absolutely correrct. " I was amazed that the business man had no idea, though he was from India. Little by little, I have had to learn the sad truth that many born in India do not know what is Sanatan Dharma, nor the destructive influences of the British....or how to live by the teachings of Gita. I pray that those who do undeerstand this continually seek ways to spread it to others. There is a vrery nice section mentioned in a booklet called Sri Hari Nama Maha Mantra....compiled by Srila B.V. Narayana Maharaj.....there the Srimad Bhagavatam is quoted (1.2.8) " dharmah svanusthitah pumsam, visvaksena-kathasu yah.......notpadayed yadi ratim, shrama eva hi kevalam " ..... " The main purpose of varnasrama- dharma is to simplify the life of a person who is performing his natural occupational duty, so that he has sufficient time to hear hari-katha. However, if an attraction for hari-katha is not inspired, then all the reilgious activities he performs in accordance with varnasrama-dharma will be so much useless labour. " Respectfully, Mahalaksmi Dasi -------------------------------Dear Shri Vineet Sarvottam, All your questions are very relevant to appreciate what Dharma is. Is Sanatna Dharma same as Hindu Dharma. With my limited knowledge I would like to answer your doubts/points as below. Hindu word is not mentioned in many of our scriptures as for a number of centuries it related to residents of Hindustan i.e. areas EAST of Sindhu river (Indus) pronounced in Persian language as Hindu river. Even the word India is from Indus river as pronounced by Greeks. By 15th century A.D Hindu word acquired some religious connotation as in Adi Grantah Sahib Guru Nanak writes Turki Kaane and Hindu Anne i.e. Muslims were half blind and Hindu totally blind to God's Vedic religion. Guru Nanak tried his best to revive Vedas being himself belonging to BEDI family for whom Vedas were the supreme scriptures. Still the word Hindu was not fully accepted as relating to religion. Even today if a Muslim goes to Egypt he is known as HINDI i.e from Hindustan. For the first time in the 19th century when first Census was taken by British Government in India after 1857, All those religions which originated from out side India like Islam, Christianity, Jews etc their followers were counted separately and all religions/sects/cults which originated from India were clubbed as Hindu religion. Thus this practice is even followed today by government of India. When we say Hindus are over 80% it means Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists, Jains, Kabir panthis, Ganpatias, Arya samajists etc. The word Dharma first appeared in Rig Veda where it is mentioned " Rtm, Satyam, Dharmmam " Rta- the cosmic laws of social, moral and physical order are eternal truths (satyam) and following these Rta (laws) is Vedic Dharma. Later when due to certain vested interets some influential and poewerful people found difficult to follow Rta, many interpretation of Dharma started like duty, which binds, way of life etc. Only followers of Vedic metaphysics can appreciate the original meaning of Dharma. Thus Hindu Dharma, Sanatan Dharma (meaning eternal religion of Vedas) would largely mean the same thing. Infact for any individual if Vedas are the supreme scriptures, he/she is a follower of Sanatan Dharma. Since Bhagavad Gita is largely based on Vedic metaphysics, Dharma would mean Sanatan Dharma. Bhagavd Gita clealy says in Chapter 16 that study of Vedas is the supreme virtue. Any interpretation which contardict Vedic interpretation is not valid in Vedic Sanatan Dharma If still some doubts persist I can clarify further with my very limited knowledge. with regards, Prem Sabhlok -------------------------------- Dear Sadak, At one time only Hinduism existed. So it called Hinduism, Hindu Dharma etc. Later on came Jainism, Buddism, Christanity, and Islam to India when people started travelling by ships. Hindu Dharma purely meant Dharma in common to all living and non living things. One can see in many histories that God went to rescue his devote irrespective of caste and creed. Even Muslim Kabir Doss was devote of Panduranga. A slaughter Dharma Vajer in Maha Bharat is praised of his Pitru Bakthi. There are Dharmas concerning, women (Sree Dharma), Purusha (Man), Raja, Sanyasi, Etc. Then there is Prayachita Dharma, Bagavatha dharma, Deva Dharma, Surya Dharma, Pancha Bootha Dharma so on. These Dharmas are there in perfect scripts. All Dharmas are taken care by 33 crore demi gods, like Vayu, Agni, Indra etc. There is one called Yuga Dharma. That is the earth and it` s planets have Chatur yuga. Namely Satya Yuga, Thretha Yuga, Dwapara Yuga and Kali yuga. Longest is Satya Yuga. Shortest is Kali yuga around 14300 years. That is why Bramaji is depicted with 4 heads representing 4 yugas. This is also said in Old testament of Christanity as the world is square. In Geetha Bagavan says everything rest only on Dharma. Dharma means the rightfulness. In Ramayan scores of dharmas are said. Even drinking water by left hand is Adharma. Dharma is clearly said about food. Dharma is said about how man from morning to evening should behave related to environment. PLEASE NOTE ALL THESE DHARMAS ARE FOR NOT ONLY FOR HINDUS, BUT FOR SOCIETY AT LARGE. Bagavan Sri Krishna said that HE will incarnate from time to time, means that HE comes to protect the people who follow all these Dharmas. Such people are called Dharmathumas. HE does not come for people who are not rightious. We can see mass of humans killed for verious reasons. But if ONE dharmathuma is attacked, Bagavan response is immediate. In important scripts it said that in the event of abuses of God, God remains silent. But in the event of very small neglect/discomfort caused to HIS devote, God respondes at once. To give evidence from scripts/upanashid/puranas it is lengthy. Besides Bagavan says these are to be taught to a person who is consistant in seeking truth able to practice basic teachings of Sanathana Dharma. To learn incomplete a small science of human body MBBS one needs 5 years. To learn these Dharmas one needs contiuous effort day in and day out. Jai Sri Krishna baiya sathyanarayan ----------------------------- =============================================================== PRIOR POSTING Gita is for people of all religions. That is why there is no mention of Hindu religion. Indians were called Hindus by invaders because of the Indus river and our faith was given the name. Hinduism is a way of life rather than a religion and there is nothing in the Gita which does not apply to people of other religions. Hari Shanker Deo ------------------------------ " Dhritih kshama damo asteyam shaucham-indriya nigrahah Dhi vidya satyam-akrodho dashakam dharma lakshanam " (Manu Smriti, Ch.VI-92) (1) Dhriti – Patience, (2) Kshama – Forgiveness, (3) Damah – Self Control, (4) Asteya – Not Stealing, (5) Shaucha – Purity, (6) Indriya Nigraha – Sense Control, (7) Dhi – Intellect, (8) Vidya – Learning/Knowledge, (9) Satya – Truth, (10) Akrodha – Absence of Anger. this shows that dharma is secular as there is no reference to personal belief, god, satan heaven , hell, angels etc... Dharma is called Dao in chinese and therefore Daoism is subsciption to this idea. one of the 3 texts of this tradition is 'Tao Te ching' Its opening line is 'the Dao that can be named is not the dao', and this falls in line with our thinking. Compare this to christian islamic judaic views that god has only one name jehova, allah, etc.. patanjali in chapter 3 says chose your favourite deity, this also means that god is relegated to do whatever suits you, its really not that important. therefore hinduism or dharma is not a religion in the judaic club, gang, sense. and traditionally hindus have said that it is not a religion but a 'way of life'. personally i have never d to the way of life buisness because then surely islam is an absolute 'way of life'. however in context of the above this can be understood as something other than belief, faith, etc... sanatana dharma has also been translated as the perennial philosophy by Aldous huxley, see his book of the same name and take a look at his novel, Island. there is only one dharma and all the rest are panths, paths. Ravi Bakhsi ------------------------------ The Word Hinduism was derived from the Indus civilisation. About 2,000 years ago when the Greeks sailed up the Indus River, they were surprised to find a civilisation that existed and they refer to them as the Indus. Later this was changed to Hindus. Mangal Deolal ------------------------------- -------------------------------- GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: 1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify their doubts related to Gitaji shalokas. Therefore, responses which further clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be posted. 2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to substantiate your response. 3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas 4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting sadhaka's time. 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only. 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other organizations. 7. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone number, address etc. 8. Please do not address the response to a particular individual since the message is going to the entire group. 9. Due to the large readership, all responses may not be posted. 10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if content is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the group. 11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use to Sanskrit words only, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit bracketed wherever possible. MODERATOR Ram Ram ------------------------ Post message: Subscribe: - Un: - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 24, 2008 Report Share Posted December 24, 2008 Shree Hari Ram Ram To respected and eminent Gita Talk members, I seek your guidance in attaining responses to the following - 1) In all the Vedas, the Puranas, the Upanishads, in Bhagavad Gita, in Ramayana, and in Ramcharitramanas, in which places is there any mention of Hindu, Hinduism, Hindu Dharma, or Hindu Sampradaaya (sect). Is there anything written about them? I am seeking in these scriptures actual and existing proof or evidence. 2) In those scriptures, where there is specific mention of Dharma and related matters, in that very scripture, the meaning of the word Dharma, please provide from the main scripture the specific quotation/extract, not someone's commentaries or lectures or exposition. Is that Dharma understood as being " Hindu mat " (hindu philosophy) or " Hindu Dharma " ? If this has been written, in which chapter is it? What are the supporting documents / background, please kindly share. 3) That which is authoritatively called Bharatiya Sanatana Dharma, that versus the Dharma in Gitaji that for which Shri Krishna Bhagwaan agreed to descend (incarnate) time and again for the establishment of Dharma, in that the so-called one-ness that is revealed, regarding that I seek the scriptural evidence (uskaa shastriya pramaan chahiye). If preceding the Shri Krishna-lila, this Sanatana Dharma was existing, then was Bhagwaan's words/knowledge (shabda-gyaan) incomplete that instead of saying Sanatana Dharma, simple said Dharma? 4) If Gita Talk instead of being for all of mankind, is simply only for participants from the Hindu sect/doctrine, then please share and make available the related principles / rules / practices. If in the language there appears to be some impatience, than please forgive me, and kindly grace me with your continued generosity. Vineet Sarvottam ------------------------------ NEW POSTING Shree Hari || Ram Ram || Dear Vineetji Thank you very much for such scholarly and loaded questions, I do not consider myself qualified to answer the questions adequately but here is an humble attempt: QUESTION 1: After consulting with the scholars in the Detroit area, I learnt to confirm my own idea that the words " Hindu " , " Hinduism " , " Hindu Dharma " are not found in Vedas, Upnishads, Brahma Sutras, Ramayana, Ramcharitmanas or Puranas. Also, there is no mention of " Hindu " in 3000 stotras composed by Adi Shankracharya and many more by numerous other sages. Though there is an extensive mention of gods in our scriptures, for example in the Bhagavad Gita, many of these gods are mentioned in Chapter 10 and 11. At some point in time in recent history, these gods have come to be known as Hindu gods. According to one theory, how the Sanatana Dharma got the name of Hinduism, it is believed that as Persians came towards India they called the people living on the east side of river Indus (Sindhu in Sanskrit) as " Hindus " because they pronounce " S " as " H " , so from `Sindhu' it became `Hindu'. During the Mohammedan rule we took up the word ourselves. But the word " Hindu " lost its significance since all people who live on this side of the Indus river in modern times do not follow the same religion as they did in ancient times, there are proper Hindus, Mohammedans, Christians, Jains etc. who also live in India. QUESTION 2: The meaning of Dharma is given as which holds and sustains (It is said in Mahabharat – " when one follows Dharma, it protects " ). Dharma is broadly classified into two ways - Sanatana (Eternal) Dharma and Swadharma (Individual duty) Meaning of Sanatana: - That which is an eternal – ever was, is and ever will be - That which is not subject to change - Universal – fundamental truths in it exist at all times and all places Meaning of Dharma: - That which holds and sustains ( " When one follows Dharma it protects " - Mahabharat) - The levels of Dharma are specified at different levels: Swadharma (Individual duty) - .. Personal Dharma (As it pertains to personal cleaniness and good conduct etc.) .. Family Dharma (Duty towards other family relationships) .. Society Dharma (Duty towards social setting, village, city or town) .. National Dharma (Duty towards one's nation) The Swadharma or individual duty varies with time, place, conditions or circumstances. For Swadharma Dharma, refer to Gitaji verses - 2/ 31-37, 3/35 and 18- 47. Sanatana Dharma never changes it is: - That which is an eternal order, governing the laws for the smooth functioning of this universe - That which is the inherent nature of things (Ex: Sun giving light, Basic virtues - Truth, Non-voilence, Compassion, Charity ...) - That which encompasses all the Spiritual Laws - That which contains the spiritual laws are eternal and are a means of God realization - That which is the source of the spiritual laws For Sanatana Dharma refer to Gitaji verses 4-7, 4-8 and 11-18 QUESTION 3. Whenever Dharma is mentioned in Gitaji, it is meant to be in a broader sense as Sanatana Dharma only. When Dharma applies to individual duties then the word `Swadharma' is used. This fact is brought up in several places in Gitaji: BG (4-1 and 4-2) In the context of Karma Yoga, Lord Krishna says, I taught this imperishable Yoga to Vivasvan (Sun God), Vivasvan told it to Manu and Manu spoke it to Iksvaku. Thus handed down from father to son, the Royal sages knew it till that Yoga was lost to the world through long lapse of Time, O' Paramtapa (Arjuna). BG (4-7 and 4-8) Whenever there is a decline in righteousness and an upsurge in righteousness, O Arjuna, I then manifest Myself. For the protection of the virtuous, for the destruction of the wicked and for establishing righteousness, I manifest myself from age to age. BG (11-18) Thou art the Imperishable, the Supreme to be realized. Thou art the Ultimate Resort of the Universe; Thou art the protector of the Dharma; Thou art the imperishable eternal Prime Person, I consider. QUESTION 4. All secular and spiritual knowledge is based on Vedas, all authoritative scriptures are derived from Vedas only. These scriptures address to the human being in general, therefore the Sanatana Dharma applies to all races, creeds and cultures, and not just to Hindus. Humble regards, Madan Kaura ------------------------------ PRIOR POSTING Dear All, MEANING OF THE WORD " HINDU " I recently joined this group and found that there are interesting brain storming sessions going on. Can someone please help me understand exact roots of word 'Hindu' ? I could find roots for 'Vedic' but not 'Hindu' anywhere in Bhagwad Gita. If someone please shed some light, it will be great help to our research group. Regards, -Nisarg Joshi Serial Vedic Learner ----------------------------- Dear Shri Vineetji, I read your mail with interest.Put briefly, Lord Krishna in the Gita [or whoever compiled it from earlier version]went beyond the basic tenets of vedas/vedanta/Upanishads.To say that Gitacharya merely summarised what was in the Upanishads is not correct. In this respect,the word Dharma used by the Lord means Sanatana Dharma (Eternal Law, Eternal Principles) and has wide meaning. Lord Krishna did not speak for Hindus only. Infact He says that whatever God/gods you may worship, it ends up in Me---that is Universal Spirit. There is no use in discussing these things from purely historical or theological perspective. Various sampradayas or traditions/sects came right from the time of Kashmir Saivism or even earlier. The worship of Vishnu brought in Puranas with emphasis on Srimad Bhagavatam...then many sects came into being. Further there is no Hindu Dharma, Christian Dharma or Islam Dharma or Jewish Dharma. As I understand, there is only one Dharma, but if you take Dharma to mean a religion or traditions, there are many. Dharma means only 'righteousness' and not 'rites.' The word Hindu or Hindu faith or religion came much later, not in Vedic/Upanishadic times...period. In Shirdi Sai Smaran, ---Dr N K Srinivasan -------------------------- Shree Hari Ram Ram All Sadhaks, please include reference to the particular scripture, as it is important for posting to this topic. Gita Talk Moderator Ram Ram ---------------------------- -------------------------- PRIOR POSTING Respected readers, My daNdavats to all in this forum..... So many beautiful thoughts......I had one more piece of information I wished to share, which is that the word " dharma " I have always heard translates as " that which one cannot sepatate from one's very existence " . So, the dharma of sugar is sweetness, the dharma of water is wetness, and the dharma of the soul is service. An intelligent person will ask, " OK, so who or what can I serve eternally? " Then the undeerstandig of Sanatana dharma, meaning more or less, our eternal occupation......service to the Lord. When coming to Gita, and the ancient Vedic tradition, one finds so many wonderful, indepth and personal concepts of what is pleasing to the service of Radha Krsna, and how to act day by day, minute by minute, instructions on how to bath, how to disciplie the mind, how to learn self restraint, peacefulness, etc. etc. This is all preliminary to the goal, a loving relationship with God. reSpectfully, Mahalaksmi Dasi ----------------------------- Namaste It is correct that, the word HINDU is not mentioned in Vedas, etc. According to Persian language, Hindu means, Kafir, chor, etc. The Persians for whatever reasons, they called Indians Hindus and we Indian also started calling us HINDU without knowing the real meaning. In Mumbai underworld, some gangstars are called in different depending upon their way of attacking, as " _____ Yeda " (mad person). Later it has become a part of his name. Likewise, we Indians continued with this bad name. I think this is mentioned in detail in Swamy Dayanand Saraswati's (Founder of Arya Samaj) " Satyartha Prakash " in Hindi and " Light of Truth " in English. He deals with it. H.K. Sudhakara ------------------------- Understanding Hindu Dharma. " Flow on self-purifying (H)indu with expansiveness... " Rig Veda. IX.96.21 Indu/Sindhu/Hindu/Sanatan Dharma/Vedic Dharma/Yoga Dharma--it is all the same. Those who would seek to separate the aforementioned only serve to tear apart. We see the results today of this division. We have those who unethically divorce the various [Hindu] Yogas from Hinduism; those who try and separate Sanantan Dharma and Hinduism. " A house divided... " Swami Param ------------------------------- PRIOR POSTING Namaskar I have gone through the mail " Misunderstanding of Dharma with Hinduism " . It is absolutely right the Hinduism has been misunderstood with dharma. It was started by britishers and has been followed by our politicians. Also, this is also true that no one has ever heard the word " HINDU " or " HINDUTVA " in any of our bhartiya granthas. All other related words like " HINDUTVA " , " HINDUSTAN " , " HINDUSTANI " , " HIND " , " HINDI " are derived from the word " HINDU " . So the question is that from where this word " HINDU " came from? Well, it was started, when Mugals shown their interest in our country " AKHAND BHARAT " (Incl. Present Bharat, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Nepal, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, Bhutan). They (Mugals) used to call " SINDHU " to the people who lives at the eastern side and the banks of River SINDU. But due to language problem they pronounce is as " HINDU " . Therefore according to them (Mugals), all the peoples living in Bharat, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Nepal, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, Bhutan are HINDU. Than how it could be HINDU DHARMA? Dharma is entirely different from HINDU. Hindu means a Sanskriti, the Culture, the Living Style of Bharat. According to our Vedas, Bhagvat Gita the word " Dharma " denotes the certain important Karmas (Must do work or Duties) of a human being like " Mtri Dharma (Duties & Responsibilities towards your Mother) " , " Pitri Dharma (Duties & Responsibilities towards your Father) " , " Desh Dharma (Duties & Responsibilities towards your Mother Land) " etc. Both the words " HINDU " & " DHARMA " have nothing to do with religion or caste. So i request all the readers to spread this fact as much as possible and understand the real meaning of " HINDU " & " DHARMA " Dhanyavad Avadhesh Didwania ----------------------------- My dear Vineet Sarvotam, My respects to all in this forum.....kindly allow me to share what I have heard from others in regard to the word " Hindu " . My opening words are not particularly " authoritative " so please kindly forgive me, but what I have to say will certainly be of interest in your discussion. Firstly, I have heard many times through the years, coming from many sadhaks, is that the word " Hindu " was coined by the British. They were unable to properly pronounce the word " Sindhus " in regard to the community/culture of individuals living on the bank of the Sindhus River, so the word " Hindu " came into the lanuauge. On a trip I made to India in the year 2000, I was on a small plane between one large city and another, and somehow or other, (we know the hand of the Lord is everywhere) the seat next to me was occupied by a sannyasi from Hrshikesh. I was conversing with a business man in a suit next to him, and explaiing this exact same thing, about the word Hindu being no where in the Vedas, and the business man turned to the sannyas (who did not speak English) and asked him about this, then turned to me, and said, " He says you are absolutely correrct. " I was amazed that the business man had no idea, though he was from India. Little by little, I have had to learn the sad truth that many born in India do not know what is Sanatan Dharma, nor the destructive influences of the British....or how to live by the teachings of Gita. I pray that those who do undeerstand this continually seek ways to spread it to others. There is a vrery nice section mentioned in a booklet called Sri Hari Nama Maha Mantra....compiled by Srila B.V. Narayana Maharaj.....there the Srimad Bhagavatam is quoted (1.2.8) " dharmah svanusthitah pumsam, visvaksena-kathasu yah.......notpadayed yadi ratim, shrama eva hi kevalam " ..... " The main purpose of varnasrama- dharma is to simplify the life of a person who is performing his natural occupational duty, so that he has sufficient time to hear hari-katha. However, if an attraction for hari-katha is not inspired, then all the reilgious activities he performs in accordance with varnasrama-dharma will be so much useless labour. " Respectfully, Mahalaksmi Dasi -------------------------------Dear Shri Vineet Sarvottam, All your questions are very relevant to appreciate what Dharma is. Is Sanatna Dharma same as Hindu Dharma. With my limited knowledge I would like to answer your doubts/points as below. Hindu word is not mentioned in many of our scriptures as for a number of centuries it related to residents of Hindustan i.e. areas EAST of Sindhu river (Indus) pronounced in Persian language as Hindu river. Even the word India is from Indus river as pronounced by Greeks. By 15th century A.D Hindu word acquired some religious connotation as in Adi Grantah Sahib Guru Nanak writes Turki Kaane and Hindu Anne i.e. Muslims were half blind and Hindu totally blind to God's Vedic religion. Guru Nanak tried his best to revive Vedas being himself belonging to BEDI family for whom Vedas were the supreme scriptures. Still the word Hindu was not fully accepted as relating to religion. Even today if a Muslim goes to Egypt he is known as HINDI i.e from Hindustan. For the first time in the 19th century when first Census was taken by British Government in India after 1857, All those religions which originated from out side India like Islam, Christianity, Jews etc their followers were counted separately and all religions/sects/cults which originated from India were clubbed as Hindu religion. Thus this practice is even followed today by government of India. When we say Hindus are over 80% it means Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists, Jains, Kabir panthis, Ganpatias, Arya samajists etc. The word Dharma first appeared in Rig Veda where it is mentioned " Rtm, Satyam, Dharmmam " Rta- the cosmic laws of social, moral and physical order are eternal truths (satyam) and following these Rta (laws) is Vedic Dharma. Later when due to certain vested interets some influential and poewerful people found difficult to follow Rta, many interpretation of Dharma started like duty, which binds, way of life etc. Only followers of Vedic metaphysics can appreciate the original meaning of Dharma. Thus Hindu Dharma, Sanatan Dharma (meaning eternal religion of Vedas) would largely mean the same thing. Infact for any individual if Vedas are the supreme scriptures, he/she is a follower of Sanatan Dharma. Since Bhagavad Gita is largely based on Vedic metaphysics, Dharma would mean Sanatan Dharma. Bhagavd Gita clealy says in Chapter 16 that study of Vedas is the supreme virtue. Any interpretation which contardict Vedic interpretation is not valid in Vedic Sanatan Dharma If still some doubts persist I can clarify further with my very limited knowledge. with regards, Prem Sabhlok -------------------------------- Dear Sadak, At one time only Hinduism existed. So it called Hinduism, Hindu Dharma etc. Later on came Jainism, Buddism, Christanity, and Islam to India when people started travelling by ships. Hindu Dharma purely meant Dharma in common to all living and non living things. One can see in many histories that God went to rescue his devote irrespective of caste and creed. Even Muslim Kabir Doss was devote of Panduranga. A slaughter Dharma Vajer in Maha Bharat is praised of his Pitru Bakthi. There are Dharmas concerning, women (Sree Dharma), Purusha (Man), Raja, Sanyasi, Etc. Then there is Prayachita Dharma, Bagavatha dharma, Deva Dharma, Surya Dharma, Pancha Bootha Dharma so on. These Dharmas are there in perfect scripts. All Dharmas are taken care by 33 crore demi gods, like Vayu, Agni, Indra etc. There is one called Yuga Dharma. That is the earth and it` s planets have Chatur yuga. Namely Satya Yuga, Thretha Yuga, Dwapara Yuga and Kali yuga. Longest is Satya Yuga. Shortest is Kali yuga around 14300 years. That is why Bramaji is depicted with 4 heads representing 4 yugas. This is also said in Old testament of Christanity as the world is square. In Geetha Bagavan says everything rest only on Dharma. Dharma means the rightfulness. In Ramayan scores of dharmas are said. Even drinking water by left hand is Adharma. Dharma is clearly said about food. Dharma is said about how man from morning to evening should behave related to environment. PLEASE NOTE ALL THESE DHARMAS ARE FOR NOT ONLY FOR HINDUS, BUT FOR SOCIETY AT LARGE. Bagavan Sri Krishna said that HE will incarnate from time to time, means that HE comes to protect the people who follow all these Dharmas. Such people are called Dharmathumas. HE does not come for people who are not rightious. We can see mass of humans killed for verious reasons. But if ONE dharmathuma is attacked, Bagavan response is immediate. In important scripts it said that in the event of abuses of God, God remains silent. But in the event of very small neglect/discomfort caused to HIS devote, God respondes at once. To give evidence from scripts/upanashid/puranas it is lengthy. Besides Bagavan says these are to be taught to a person who is consistant in seeking truth able to practice basic teachings of Sanathana Dharma. To learn incomplete a small science of human body MBBS one needs 5 years. To learn these Dharmas one needs contiuous effort day in and day out. Jai Sri Krishna baiya sathyanarayan ----------------------------- =============================================================== PRIOR POSTING Gita is for people of all religions. That is why there is no mention of Hindu religion. Indians were called Hindus by invaders because of the Indus river and our faith was given the name. Hinduism is a way of life rather than a religion and there is nothing in the Gita which does not apply to people of other religions. Hari Shanker Deo ------------------------------ " Dhritih kshama damo asteyam shaucham-indriya nigrahah Dhi vidya satyam-akrodho dashakam dharma lakshanam " (Manu Smriti, Ch.VI-92) (1) Dhriti – Patience, (2) Kshama – Forgiveness, (3) Damah – Self Control, (4) Asteya – Not Stealing, (5) Shaucha – Purity, (6) Indriya Nigraha – Sense Control, (7) Dhi – Intellect, (8) Vidya – Learning/Knowledge, (9) Satya – Truth, (10) Akrodha – Absence of Anger. this shows that dharma is secular as there is no reference to personal belief, god, satan heaven , hell, angels etc... Dharma is called Dao in chinese and therefore Daoism is subsciption to this idea. one of the 3 texts of this tradition is 'Tao Te ching' Its opening line is 'the Dao that can be named is not the dao', and this falls in line with our thinking. Compare this to christian islamic judaic views that god has only one name jehova, allah, etc.. patanjali in chapter 3 says chose your favourite deity, this also means that god is relegated to do whatever suits you, its really not that important. therefore hinduism or dharma is not a religion in the judaic club, gang, sense. and traditionally hindus have said that it is not a religion but a 'way of life'. personally i have never d to the way of life buisness because then surely islam is an absolute 'way of life'. however in context of the above this can be understood as something other than belief, faith, etc... sanatana dharma has also been translated as the perennial philosophy by Aldous huxley, see his book of the same name and take a look at his novel, Island. there is only one dharma and all the rest are panths, paths. Ravi Bakhsi ------------------------------ The Word Hinduism was derived from the Indus civilisation. About 2,000 years ago when the Greeks sailed up the Indus River, they were surprised to find a civilisation that existed and they refer to them as the Indus. Later this was changed to Hindus. Mangal Deolal ------------------------------- -------------------------------- GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: 1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify their doubts related to Gitaji shalokas. Therefore, responses which further clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be posted. 2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to substantiate your response. 3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas 4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting sadhaka's time. 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only. 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other organizations. 7. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone number, address etc. 8. Please do not address the response to a particular individual since the message is going to the entire group. 9. Due to the large readership, all responses may not be posted. 10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if content is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the group. 11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use to Sanskrit words only, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit bracketed wherever possible. MODERATOR Ram Ram ------------------------ Post message: Subscribe: - Un: - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 26, 2008 Report Share Posted December 26, 2008 Shree Hari Ram Ram To respected and eminent Gita Talk members, I seek your guidance in attaining responses to the following - 1) In all the Vedas, the Puranas, the Upanishads, in Bhagavad Gita, in Ramayana, and in Ramcharitramanas, in which places is there any mention of Hindu, Hinduism, Hindu Dharma, or Hindu Sampradaaya (sect). Is there anything written about them? I am seeking in these scriptures actual and existing proof or evidence. 2) In those scriptures, where there is specific mention of Dharma and related matters, in that very scripture, the meaning of the word Dharma, please provide from the main scripture the specific quotation/extract, not someone's commentaries or lectures or exposition. Is that Dharma understood as being " Hindu mat " (hindu philosophy) or " Hindu Dharma " ? If this has been written, in which chapter is it? What are the supporting documents / background, please kindly share. 3) That which is authoritatively called Bharatiya Sanatana Dharma, that versus the Dharma in Gitaji that for which Shri Krishna Bhagwaan agreed to descend (incarnate) time and again for the establishment of Dharma, in that the so-called one-ness that is revealed, regarding that I seek the scriptural evidence (uskaa shastriya pramaan chahiye). If preceding the Shri Krishna-lila, this Sanatana Dharma was existing, then was Bhagwaan's words/knowledge (shabda-gyaan) incomplete that instead of saying Sanatana Dharma, simple said Dharma? 4) If Gita Talk instead of being for all of mankind, is simply only for participants from the Hindu sect/doctrine, then please share and make available the related principles / rules / practices. If in the language there appears to be some impatience, than please forgive me, and kindly grace me with your continued generosity. Vineet Sarvottam ------------------------------ NEW POSTING Shree Hari Ram Ram Bhaiyyaa Madan, Your reading and study is good. Now, I have not been able to study these scriptures at all. From your message from the Gita verses Gita 4:7, 8, 11-18, no where did I find the word Hindu or Sanatana Dharma. Eternal Dharma, is in itself to be understood as Sanatana Dharma, that was not to be found in Gitaji. I want to undertand the root, the essence of these compositions/works (kruti). Vineet Sarvottam -------------------------------- Shree Hari || Ram Ram || Dear Vineetji Thank you very much for such scholarly and loaded questions, I do not consider myself qualified to answer the questions adequately but here is an humble attempt: QUESTION 1: After consulting with the scholars in the Detroit area, I learnt to confirm my own idea that the words " Hindu " , " Hinduism " , " Hindu Dharma " are not found in Vedas, Upnishads, Brahma Sutras, Ramayana, Ramcharitmanas or Puranas. Also, there is no mention of " Hindu " in 3000 stotras composed by Adi Shankracharya and many more by numerous other sages. Though there is an extensive mention of gods in our scriptures, for example in the Bhagavad Gita, many of these gods are mentioned in Chapter 10 and 11. At some point in time in recent history, these gods have come to be known as Hindu gods. According to one theory, how the Sanatana Dharma got the name of Hinduism, it is believed that as Persians came towards India they called the people living on the east side of river Indus (Sindhu in Sanskrit) as " Hindus " because they pronounce " S " as " H " , so from `Sindhu' it became `Hindu'. During the Mohammedan rule we took up the word ourselves. But the word " Hindu " lost its significance since all people who live on this side of the Indus river in modern times do not follow the same religion as they did in ancient times, there are proper Hindus, Mohammedans, Christians, Jains etc. who also live in India. QUESTION 2: The meaning of Dharma is given as which holds and sustains (It is said in Mahabharat – " when one follows Dharma, it protects " ). Dharma is broadly classified into two ways - Sanatana (Eternal) Dharma and Swadharma (Individual duty) Meaning of Sanatana: - That which is an eternal – ever was, is and ever will be - That which is not subject to change - Universal – fundamental truths in it exist at all times and all places Meaning of Dharma: - That which holds and sustains ( " When one follows Dharma it protects " - Mahabharat) - The levels of Dharma are specified at different levels: Swadharma (Individual duty) - .. Personal Dharma (As it pertains to personal cleaniness and good conduct etc.) .. Family Dharma (Duty towards other family relationships) .. Society Dharma (Duty towards social setting, village, city or town) .. National Dharma (Duty towards one's nation) The Swadharma or individual duty varies with time, place, conditions or circumstances. For Swadharma Dharma, refer to Gitaji verses - 2/ 31-37, 3/35 and 18- 47. Sanatana Dharma never changes it is: - That which is an eternal order, governing the laws for the smooth functioning of this universe - That which is the inherent nature of things (Ex: Sun giving light, Basic virtues - Truth, Non-voilence, Compassion, Charity ...) - That which encompasses all the Spiritual Laws - That which contains the spiritual laws are eternal and are a means of God realization - That which is the source of the spiritual laws For Sanatana Dharma refer to Gitaji verses 4-7, 4-8 and 11-18 QUESTION 3. Whenever Dharma is mentioned in Gitaji, it is meant to be in a broader sense as Sanatana Dharma only. When Dharma applies to individual duties then the word `Swadharma' is used. This fact is brought up in several places in Gitaji: BG (4-1 and 4-2) In the context of Karma Yoga, Lord Krishna says, I taught this imperishable Yoga to Vivasvan (Sun God), Vivasvan told it to Manu and Manu spoke it to Iksvaku. Thus handed down from father to son, the Royal sages knew it till that Yoga was lost to the world through long lapse of Time, O' Paramtapa (Arjuna). BG (4-7 and 4-8) Whenever there is a decline in righteousness and an upsurge in righteousness, O Arjuna, I then manifest Myself. For the protection of the virtuous, for the destruction of the wicked and for establishing righteousness, I manifest myself from age to age. BG (11-18) Thou art the Imperishable, the Supreme to be realized. Thou art the Ultimate Resort of the Universe; Thou art the protector of the Dharma; Thou art the imperishable eternal Prime Person, I consider. QUESTION 4. All secular and spiritual knowledge is based on Vedas, all authoritative scriptures are derived from Vedas only. These scriptures address to the human being in general, therefore the Sanatana Dharma applies to all races, creeds and cultures, and not just to Hindus. Humble regards, Madan Kaura ----------------------------- Pranaams to members Dear Vineet, please see this - (1) Hindusthan 'HIMAALAYAAM SAMAARAMBHYA YAAVAT HINDU SAROVARAM TAM DEVA NIRMITAM DESAM HINDUSTHANAM PRACHAKSHATHE' (2) Hindu 'SINDHU PARYANTHAAM YASYAA BHAARATHA BHOOMIKA, MATHRUBHU : , PITHRUBHUSCHAIVA, SA VAI, HINDU ITHI SMRUTHA' I am not able to locate the authority for this. Pranaams Vijayan ------------------------------ PRIOR POSTING Dear All, MEANING OF THE WORD " HINDU " I recently joined this group and found that there are interesting brain storming sessions going on. Can someone please help me understand exact roots of word 'Hindu' ? I could find roots for 'Vedic' but not 'Hindu' anywhere in Bhagwad Gita. If someone please shed some light, it will be great help to our research group. Regards, -Nisarg Joshi Serial Vedic Learner ----------------------------- Dear Shri Vineetji, I read your mail with interest.Put briefly, Lord Krishna in the Gita [or whoever compiled it from earlier version]went beyond the basic tenets of vedas/vedanta/Upanishads.To say that Gitacharya merely summarised what was in the Upanishads is not correct. In this respect,the word Dharma used by the Lord means Sanatana Dharma (Eternal Law, Eternal Principles) and has wide meaning. Lord Krishna did not speak for Hindus only. Infact He says that whatever God/gods you may worship, it ends up in Me---that is Universal Spirit. There is no use in discussing these things from purely historical or theological perspective. Various sampradayas or traditions/sects came right from the time of Kashmir Saivism or even earlier. The worship of Vishnu brought in Puranas with emphasis on Srimad Bhagavatam...then many sects came into being. Further there is no Hindu Dharma, Christian Dharma or Islam Dharma or Jewish Dharma. As I understand, there is only one Dharma, but if you take Dharma to mean a religion or traditions, there are many. Dharma means only 'righteousness' and not 'rites.' The word Hindu or Hindu faith or religion came much later, not in Vedic/Upanishadic times...period. In Shirdi Sai Smaran, ---Dr N K Srinivasan -------------------------- Shree Hari Ram Ram All Sadhaks, please include reference to the particular scripture, as it is important for posting to this topic. Gita Talk Moderator Ram Ram ---------------------------- -------------------------- PRIOR POSTING Respected readers, My daNdavats to all in this forum..... So many beautiful thoughts......I had one more piece of information I wished to share, which is that the word " dharma " I have always heard translates as " that which one cannot sepatate from one's very existence " . So, the dharma of sugar is sweetness, the dharma of water is wetness, and the dharma of the soul is service. An intelligent person will ask, " OK, so who or what can I serve eternally? " Then the undeerstandig of Sanatana dharma, meaning more or less, our eternal occupation......service to the Lord. When coming to Gita, and the ancient Vedic tradition, one finds so many wonderful, indepth and personal concepts of what is pleasing to the service of Radha Krsna, and how to act day by day, minute by minute, instructions on how to bath, how to disciplie the mind, how to learn self restraint, peacefulness, etc. etc. This is all preliminary to the goal, a loving relationship with God. reSpectfully, Mahalaksmi Dasi ----------------------------- Namaste It is correct that, the word HINDU is not mentioned in Vedas, etc. According to Persian language, Hindu means, Kafir, chor, etc. The Persians for whatever reasons, they called Indians Hindus and we Indian also started calling us HINDU without knowing the real meaning. In Mumbai underworld, some gangstars are called in different depending upon their way of attacking, as " _____ Yeda " (mad person). Later it has become a part of his name. Likewise, we Indians continued with this bad name. I think this is mentioned in detail in Swamy Dayanand Saraswati's (Founder of Arya Samaj) " Satyartha Prakash " in Hindi and " Light of Truth " in English. He deals with it. H.K. Sudhakara ------------------------- Understanding Hindu Dharma. " Flow on self-purifying (H)indu with expansiveness... " Rig Veda. IX.96.21 Indu/Sindhu/Hindu/Sanatan Dharma/Vedic Dharma/Yoga Dharma--it is all the same. Those who would seek to separate the aforementioned only serve to tear apart. We see the results today of this division. We have those who unethically divorce the various [Hindu] Yogas from Hinduism; those who try and separate Sanantan Dharma and Hinduism. " A house divided... " Swami Param ------------------------------- PRIOR POSTING Namaskar I have gone through the mail " Misunderstanding of Dharma with Hinduism " . It is absolutely right the Hinduism has been misunderstood with dharma. It was started by britishers and has been followed by our politicians. Also, this is also true that no one has ever heard the word " HINDU " or " HINDUTVA " in any of our bhartiya granthas. All other related words like " HINDUTVA " , " HINDUSTAN " , " HINDUSTANI " , " HIND " , " HINDI " are derived from the word " HINDU " . So the question is that from where this word " HINDU " came from? Well, it was started, when Mugals shown their interest in our country " AKHAND BHARAT " (Incl. Present Bharat, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Nepal, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, Bhutan). They (Mugals) used to call " SINDHU " to the people who lives at the eastern side and the banks of River SINDU. But due to language problem they pronounce is as " HINDU " . Therefore according to them (Mugals), all the peoples living in Bharat, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Nepal, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, Bhutan are HINDU. Than how it could be HINDU DHARMA? Dharma is entirely different from HINDU. Hindu means a Sanskriti, the Culture, the Living Style of Bharat. According to our Vedas, Bhagvat Gita the word " Dharma " denotes the certain important Karmas (Must do work or Duties) of a human being like " Mtri Dharma (Duties & Responsibilities towards your Mother) " , " Pitri Dharma (Duties & Responsibilities towards your Father) " , " Desh Dharma (Duties & Responsibilities towards your Mother Land) " etc. Both the words " HINDU " & " DHARMA " have nothing to do with religion or caste. So i request all the readers to spread this fact as much as possible and understand the real meaning of " HINDU " & " DHARMA " Dhanyavad Avadhesh Didwania ----------------------------- My dear Vineet Sarvotam, My respects to all in this forum.....kindly allow me to share what I have heard from others in regard to the word " Hindu " . My opening words are not particularly " authoritative " so please kindly forgive me, but what I have to say will certainly be of interest in your discussion. Firstly, I have heard many times through the years, coming from many sadhaks, is that the word " Hindu " was coined by the British. They were unable to properly pronounce the word " Sindhus " in regard to the community/culture of individuals living on the bank of the Sindhus River, so the word " Hindu " came into the lanuauge. On a trip I made to India in the year 2000, I was on a small plane between one large city and another, and somehow or other, (we know the hand of the Lord is everywhere) the seat next to me was occupied by a sannyasi from Hrshikesh. I was conversing with a business man in a suit next to him, and explaiing this exact same thing, about the word Hindu being no where in the Vedas, and the business man turned to the sannyas (who did not speak English) and asked him about this, then turned to me, and said, " He says you are absolutely correrct. " I was amazed that the business man had no idea, though he was from India. Little by little, I have had to learn the sad truth that many born in India do not know what is Sanatan Dharma, nor the destructive influences of the British....or how to live by the teachings of Gita. I pray that those who do undeerstand this continually seek ways to spread it to others. There is a vrery nice section mentioned in a booklet called Sri Hari Nama Maha Mantra....compiled by Srila B.V. Narayana Maharaj.....there the Srimad Bhagavatam is quoted (1.2.8) " dharmah svanusthitah pumsam, visvaksena-kathasu yah.......notpadayed yadi ratim, shrama eva hi kevalam " ..... " The main purpose of varnasrama- dharma is to simplify the life of a person who is performing his natural occupational duty, so that he has sufficient time to hear hari-katha. However, if an attraction for hari-katha is not inspired, then all the reilgious activities he performs in accordance with varnasrama-dharma will be so much useless labour. " Respectfully, Mahalaksmi Dasi -------------------------------Dear Shri Vineet Sarvottam, All your questions are very relevant to appreciate what Dharma is. Is Sanatna Dharma same as Hindu Dharma. With my limited knowledge I would like to answer your doubts/points as below. Hindu word is not mentioned in many of our scriptures as for a number of centuries it related to residents of Hindustan i.e. areas EAST of Sindhu river (Indus) pronounced in Persian language as Hindu river. Even the word India is from Indus river as pronounced by Greeks. By 15th century A.D Hindu word acquired some religious connotation as in Adi Grantah Sahib Guru Nanak writes Turki Kaane and Hindu Anne i.e. Muslims were half blind and Hindu totally blind to God's Vedic religion. Guru Nanak tried his best to revive Vedas being himself belonging to BEDI family for whom Vedas were the supreme scriptures. Still the word Hindu was not fully accepted as relating to religion. Even today if a Muslim goes to Egypt he is known as HINDI i.e from Hindustan. For the first time in the 19th century when first Census was taken by British Government in India after 1857, All those religions which originated from out side India like Islam, Christianity, Jews etc their followers were counted separately and all religions/sects/cults which originated from India were clubbed as Hindu religion. Thus this practice is even followed today by government of India. When we say Hindus are over 80% it means Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists, Jains, Kabir panthis, Ganpatias, Arya samajists etc. The word Dharma first appeared in Rig Veda where it is mentioned " Rtm, Satyam, Dharmmam " Rta- the cosmic laws of social, moral and physical order are eternal truths (satyam) and following these Rta (laws) is Vedic Dharma. Later when due to certain vested interets some influential and poewerful people found difficult to follow Rta, many interpretation of Dharma started like duty, which binds, way of life etc. Only followers of Vedic metaphysics can appreciate the original meaning of Dharma. Thus Hindu Dharma, Sanatan Dharma (meaning eternal religion of Vedas) would largely mean the same thing. Infact for any individual if Vedas are the supreme scriptures, he/she is a follower of Sanatan Dharma. Since Bhagavad Gita is largely based on Vedic metaphysics, Dharma would mean Sanatan Dharma. Bhagavd Gita clealy says in Chapter 16 that study of Vedas is the supreme virtue. Any interpretation which contardict Vedic interpretation is not valid in Vedic Sanatan Dharma If still some doubts persist I can clarify further with my very limited knowledge. with regards, Prem Sabhlok -------------------------------- Dear Sadak, At one time only Hinduism existed. So it called Hinduism, Hindu Dharma etc. Later on came Jainism, Buddism, Christanity, and Islam to India when people started travelling by ships. Hindu Dharma purely meant Dharma in common to all living and non living things. One can see in many histories that God went to rescue his devote irrespective of caste and creed. Even Muslim Kabir Doss was devote of Panduranga. A slaughter Dharma Vajer in Maha Bharat is praised of his Pitru Bakthi. There are Dharmas concerning, women (Sree Dharma), Purusha (Man), Raja, Sanyasi, Etc. Then there is Prayachita Dharma, Bagavatha dharma, Deva Dharma, Surya Dharma, Pancha Bootha Dharma so on. These Dharmas are there in perfect scripts. All Dharmas are taken care by 33 crore demi gods, like Vayu, Agni, Indra etc. There is one called Yuga Dharma. That is the earth and it` s planets have Chatur yuga. Namely Satya Yuga, Thretha Yuga, Dwapara Yuga and Kali yuga. Longest is Satya Yuga. Shortest is Kali yuga around 14300 years. That is why Bramaji is depicted with 4 heads representing 4 yugas. This is also said in Old testament of Christanity as the world is square. In Geetha Bagavan says everything rest only on Dharma. Dharma means the rightfulness. In Ramayan scores of dharmas are said. Even drinking water by left hand is Adharma. Dharma is clearly said about food. Dharma is said about how man from morning to evening should behave related to environment. PLEASE NOTE ALL THESE DHARMAS ARE FOR NOT ONLY FOR HINDUS, BUT FOR SOCIETY AT LARGE. Bagavan Sri Krishna said that HE will incarnate from time to time, means that HE comes to protect the people who follow all these Dharmas. Such people are called Dharmathumas. HE does not come for people who are not rightious. We can see mass of humans killed for verious reasons. But if ONE dharmathuma is attacked, Bagavan response is immediate. In important scripts it said that in the event of abuses of God, God remains silent. But in the event of very small neglect/discomfort caused to HIS devote, God respondes at once. To give evidence from scripts/upanashid/puranas it is lengthy. Besides Bagavan says these are to be taught to a person who is consistant in seeking truth able to practice basic teachings of Sanathana Dharma. To learn incomplete a small science of human body MBBS one needs 5 years. To learn these Dharmas one needs contiuous effort day in and day out. Jai Sri Krishna baiya sathyanarayan ----------------------------- =============================================================== PRIOR POSTING Gita is for people of all religions. That is why there is no mention of Hindu religion. Indians were called Hindus by invaders because of the Indus river and our faith was given the name. Hinduism is a way of life rather than a religion and there is nothing in the Gita which does not apply to people of other religions. Hari Shanker Deo ------------------------------ " Dhritih kshama damo asteyam shaucham-indriya nigrahah Dhi vidya satyam-akrodho dashakam dharma lakshanam " (Manu Smriti, Ch.VI-92) (1) Dhriti – Patience, (2) Kshama – Forgiveness, (3) Damah – Self Control, (4) Asteya – Not Stealing, (5) Shaucha – Purity, (6) Indriya Nigraha – Sense Control, (7) Dhi – Intellect, (8) Vidya – Learning/Knowledge, (9) Satya – Truth, (10) Akrodha – Absence of Anger. this shows that dharma is secular as there is no reference to personal belief, god, satan heaven , hell, angels etc... Dharma is called Dao in chinese and therefore Daoism is subsciption to this idea. one of the 3 texts of this tradition is 'Tao Te ching' Its opening line is 'the Dao that can be named is not the dao', and this falls in line with our thinking. Compare this to christian islamic judaic views that god has only one name jehova, allah, etc.. patanjali in chapter 3 says chose your favourite deity, this also means that god is relegated to do whatever suits you, its really not that important. therefore hinduism or dharma is not a religion in the judaic club, gang, sense. and traditionally hindus have said that it is not a religion but a 'way of life'. personally i have never d to the way of life buisness because then surely islam is an absolute 'way of life'. however in context of the above this can be understood as something other than belief, faith, etc... sanatana dharma has also been translated as the perennial philosophy by Aldous huxley, see his book of the same name and take a look at his novel, Island. there is only one dharma and all the rest are panths, paths. Ravi Bakhsi ------------------------------ The Word Hinduism was derived from the Indus civilisation. About 2,000 years ago when the Greeks sailed up the Indus River, they were surprised to find a civilisation that existed and they refer to them as the Indus. Later this was changed to Hindus. Mangal Deolal ------------------------------- -------------------------------- GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: 1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify their doubts related to Gitaji shalokas. Therefore, responses which further clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be posted. 2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to substantiate your response. 3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas 4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting sadhaka's time. 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only. 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other organizations. 7. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone number, address etc. 8. Please do not address the response to a particular individual since the message is going to the entire group. 9. Due to the large readership, all responses may not be posted. 10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if content is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the group. 11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use to Sanskrit words only, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit bracketed wherever possible. MODERATOR Ram Ram ------------------------ Post message: Subscribe: - Un: - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 27, 2008 Report Share Posted December 27, 2008 Shree Hari Ram Ram To respected and eminent Gita Talk members, I seek your guidance in attaining responses to the following - 1) In all the Vedas, the Puranas, the Upanishads, in Bhagavad Gita, in Ramayana, and in Ramcharitramanas, in which places is there any mention of Hindu, Hinduism, Hindu Dharma, or Hindu Sampradaaya (sect). Is there anything written about them? I am seeking in these scriptures actual and existing proof or evidence. 2) In those scriptures, where there is specific mention of Dharma and related matters, in that very scripture, the meaning of the word Dharma, please provide from the main scripture the specific quotation/extract, not someone's commentaries or lectures or exposition. Is that Dharma understood as being " Hindu mat " (hindu philosophy) or " Hindu Dharma " ? If this has been written, in which chapter is it? What are the supporting documents / background, please kindly share. 3) That which is authoritatively called Bharatiya Sanatana Dharma, that versus the Dharma in Gitaji that for which Shri Krishna Bhagwaan agreed to descend (incarnate) time and again for the establishment of Dharma, in that the so-called one-ness that is revealed, regarding that I seek the scriptural evidence (uskaa shastriya pramaan chahiye). If preceding the Shri Krishna-lila, this Sanatana Dharma was existing, then was Bhagwaan's words/knowledge (shabda-gyaan) incomplete that instead of saying Sanatana Dharma, simple said Dharma? 4) If Gita Talk instead of being for all of mankind, is simply only for participants from the Hindu sect/doctrine, then please share and make available the related principles / rules / practices. If in the language there appears to be some impatience, than please forgive me, and kindly grace me with your continued generosity. Vineet Sarvottam ------------------------------ NEW POSTING Shree Hari || Ram Ram || Dear Vineetji Pls. forgive me, was not able to make it very clear, here is another attempt - as per the previous note, pls. note that the word 'Hindu' is not mentioned in any of our scriptures but there is a definite mention of " Sanatana Dharma " ' in Gitaji in the following verses: BG (11-18), Arjuna says - " tvamaksaram paramam veditavam, tvamasya visvasya param nidhanam tvamavayayah sassasvatadharmagopta, sanatanastvam puruso mato me " You are, I recognize, the Imperishable, the Supreme Being (Aksara) to be realized; You are the ultimate refuge of this universe; the protector of Eternal (Sanatana) Dharma and you are the eternally imperishable Being. 'Tvam sasvatadharmagopta' - Arjuna says, that when there is, decline of righteousness and rise of unrighteousness, the Lord by taking an incarnation, destroys the evil and protects " Sanatana Dharma " , the Dharma that has existed since the time immemorial and shall exist forever. (Ref: Sadhak-Sanjivani, pg.1251 in English and pg. 690 in Hindi). BG (14-27): Lord Krishna says - " brahmano hi pratishahamamtrsyavyavasya ca sasvatasya ca dharmasya sukhasyaikantikasya ca " For, I am the abode of Brahma, the immortal and the Imperishable, of Santana (Eternal) Dharma (Law of righteousness) and of absolute bliss. " Sasvatasya ca dharmasya " Lord Krishna, is the abode of eternal (Sanatana) Dharma and eternal (Sanatana) Dharma, is the abode of the Lord. It means that the Lord and eternal (Sanatana) Dharma, are one and the same.* * There are four important Dharmas (Religions) in the world. They are Hindu (Sanatana or Eternal), Buddhism, Christian and Muslim. The founders of these are Buddha, Christian and Mohammada respectively. But the Sanatana Dharma was not originated by anyone, it is eternal and beginning-less like the Lord. This is discovery made by sages from India. What is discovered, has its own pre-existence. The methods of God-realization described in other Dhramas are also the gift of " Sanatana Dharma " . Whenever there is a decline of this Dharma, the Lord incarnates Himself for the establishment of Dharma (Gitaji 4/7-8). So the Lord re-establishes it, He does not find it (just like when something is lost we find it). Actually all other religions are the product of Sanatana Dharma only. So if their principles are obeyed without any desire for their fruit, they will lead to salvation undoubtedly. A deep thought for salvation as is described in Sanatana Dharma is not available in other religions. The principles of Sanatana Dharma (which in time came to be known as Hinduism) are totally scientific and they lead to salvation. (Ref: Sadhak-Sanjivani, pg. 1577 in English and pg. 855 in Hindi). Ram Ram Humble pranams Madan Kaura ------------------------------ RAM RAM, here are the dictionary meanings of Dharma: 'Dharma' may be defined as the eternal law or the sum of many good qualities governing, upholding, and supporting creation and the world order. for example helping each other keeps the world running (Gitaji 3.10-11) It is the eternal relationship between the creator and His creatures. It also means way of life, doctrine, principle, prescribed duty, righteousness, right action, integrity, ideal conduct, custom, virtue, nature, essential quality, commandments, moral principles, spiritual truth, spirituality, spiritual values, and a function within the scriptural injunction or religion. = hariom roy ------------------------------ Shree Hari Ram Ram Bhaiyyaa Madan, Your reading and study is good. Now, I have not been able to study these scriptures at all. From your message from the Gita verses Gita 4:7, 8, 11-18, no where did I find the word Hindu or Sanatana Dharma. Eternal Dharma, is in itself to be understood as Sanatana Dharma, that was not to be found in Gitaji. I want to undertand the root, the essence of these compositions/works (kruti). Vineet Sarvottam -------------------------------- Shree Hari || Ram Ram || Dear Vineetji Thank you very much for such scholarly and loaded questions, I do not consider myself qualified to answer the questions adequately but here is an humble attempt: QUESTION 1: After consulting with the scholars in the Detroit area, I learnt to confirm my own idea that the words " Hindu " , " Hinduism " , " Hindu Dharma " are not found in Vedas, Upnishads, Brahma Sutras, Ramayana, Ramcharitmanas or Puranas. Also, there is no mention of " Hindu " in 3000 stotras composed by Adi Shankracharya and many more by numerous other sages. Though there is an extensive mention of gods in our scriptures, for example in the Bhagavad Gita, many of these gods are mentioned in Chapter 10 and 11. At some point in time in recent history, these gods have come to be known as Hindu gods. According to one theory, how the Sanatana Dharma got the name of Hinduism, it is believed that as Persians came towards India they called the people living on the east side of river Indus (Sindhu in Sanskrit) as " Hindus " because they pronounce " S " as " H " , so from `Sindhu' it became `Hindu'. During the Mohammedan rule we took up the word ourselves. But the word " Hindu " lost its significance since all people who live on this side of the Indus river in modern times do not follow the same religion as they did in ancient times, there are proper Hindus, Mohammedans, Christians, Jains etc. who also live in India. QUESTION 2: The meaning of Dharma is given as which holds and sustains (It is said in Mahabharat – " when one follows Dharma, it protects " ). Dharma is broadly classified into two ways - Sanatana (Eternal) Dharma and Swadharma (Individual duty) Meaning of Sanatana: - That which is an eternal – ever was, is and ever will be - That which is not subject to change - Universal – fundamental truths in it exist at all times and all places Meaning of Dharma: - That which holds and sustains ( " When one follows Dharma it protects " - Mahabharat) - The levels of Dharma are specified at different levels: Swadharma (Individual duty) - .. Personal Dharma (As it pertains to personal cleaniness and good conduct etc.) .. Family Dharma (Duty towards other family relationships) .. Society Dharma (Duty towards social setting, village, city or town) .. National Dharma (Duty towards one's nation) The Swadharma or individual duty varies with time, place, conditions or circumstances. For Swadharma Dharma, refer to Gitaji verses - 2/ 31-37, 3/35 and 18- 47. Sanatana Dharma never changes it is: - That which is an eternal order, governing the laws for the smooth functioning of this universe - That which is the inherent nature of things (Ex: Sun giving light, Basic virtues - Truth, Non-voilence, Compassion, Charity ...) - That which encompasses all the Spiritual Laws - That which contains the spiritual laws are eternal and are a means of God realization - That which is the source of the spiritual laws For Sanatana Dharma refer to Gitaji verses 4-7, 4-8 and 11-18 QUESTION 3. Whenever Dharma is mentioned in Gitaji, it is meant to be in a broader sense as Sanatana Dharma only. When Dharma applies to individual duties then the word `Swadharma' is used. This fact is brought up in several places in Gitaji: BG (4-1 and 4-2) In the context of Karma Yoga, Lord Krishna says, I taught this imperishable Yoga to Vivasvan (Sun God), Vivasvan told it to Manu and Manu spoke it to Iksvaku. Thus handed down from father to son, the Royal sages knew it till that Yoga was lost to the world through long lapse of Time, O' Paramtapa (Arjuna). BG (4-7 and 4-8) Whenever there is a decline in righteousness and an upsurge in righteousness, O Arjuna, I then manifest Myself. For the protection of the virtuous, for the destruction of the wicked and for establishing righteousness, I manifest myself from age to age. BG (11-18) Thou art the Imperishable, the Supreme to be realized. Thou art the Ultimate Resort of the Universe; Thou art the protector of the Dharma; Thou art the imperishable eternal Prime Person, I consider. QUESTION 4. All secular and spiritual knowledge is based on Vedas, all authoritative scriptures are derived from Vedas only. These scriptures address to the human being in general, therefore the Sanatana Dharma applies to all races, creeds and cultures, and not just to Hindus. Humble regards, Madan Kaura ----------------------------- Pranaams to members Dear Vineet, please see this - (1) Hindusthan 'HIMAALAYAAM SAMAARAMBHYA YAAVAT HINDU SAROVARAM TAM DEVA NIRMITAM DESAM HINDUSTHANAM PRACHAKSHATHE' (2) Hindu 'SINDHU PARYANTHAAM YASYAA BHAARATHA BHOOMIKA, MATHRUBHU : , PITHRUBHUSCHAIVA, SA VAI, HINDU ITHI SMRUTHA' I am not able to locate the authority for this. Pranaams Vijayan ------------------------------ PRIOR POSTING Dear All, MEANING OF THE WORD " HINDU " I recently joined this group and found that there are interesting brain storming sessions going on. Can someone please help me understand exact roots of word 'Hindu' ? I could find roots for 'Vedic' but not 'Hindu' anywhere in Bhagwad Gita. If someone please shed some light, it will be great help to our research group. Regards, -Nisarg Joshi Serial Vedic Learner ----------------------------- Dear Shri Vineetji, I read your mail with interest.Put briefly, Lord Krishna in the Gita [or whoever compiled it from earlier version]went beyond the basic tenets of vedas/vedanta/Upanishads.To say that Gitacharya merely summarised what was in the Upanishads is not correct. In this respect,the word Dharma used by the Lord means Sanatana Dharma (Eternal Law, Eternal Principles) and has wide meaning. Lord Krishna did not speak for Hindus only. Infact He says that whatever God/gods you may worship, it ends up in Me---that is Universal Spirit. There is no use in discussing these things from purely historical or theological perspective. Various sampradayas or traditions/sects came right from the time of Kashmir Saivism or even earlier. The worship of Vishnu brought in Puranas with emphasis on Srimad Bhagavatam...then many sects came into being. Further there is no Hindu Dharma, Christian Dharma or Islam Dharma or Jewish Dharma. As I understand, there is only one Dharma, but if you take Dharma to mean a religion or traditions, there are many. Dharma means only 'righteousness' and not 'rites.' The word Hindu or Hindu faith or religion came much later, not in Vedic/Upanishadic times...period. In Shirdi Sai Smaran, ---Dr N K Srinivasan -------------------------- Shree Hari Ram Ram All Sadhaks, please include reference to the particular scripture, as it is important for posting to this topic. Gita Talk Moderator Ram Ram ---------------------------- -------------------------- PRIOR POSTING Respected readers, My daNdavats to all in this forum..... So many beautiful thoughts......I had one more piece of information I wished to share, which is that the word " dharma " I have always heard translates as " that which one cannot sepatate from one's very existence " . So, the dharma of sugar is sweetness, the dharma of water is wetness, and the dharma of the soul is service. An intelligent person will ask, " OK, so who or what can I serve eternally? " Then the undeerstandig of Sanatana dharma, meaning more or less, our eternal occupation......service to the Lord. When coming to Gita, and the ancient Vedic tradition, one finds so many wonderful, indepth and personal concepts of what is pleasing to the service of Radha Krsna, and how to act day by day, minute by minute, instructions on how to bath, how to disciplie the mind, how to learn self restraint, peacefulness, etc. etc. This is all preliminary to the goal, a loving relationship with God. reSpectfully, Mahalaksmi Dasi ----------------------------- Namaste It is correct that, the word HINDU is not mentioned in Vedas, etc. According to Persian language, Hindu means, Kafir, chor, etc. The Persians for whatever reasons, they called Indians Hindus and we Indian also started calling us HINDU without knowing the real meaning. In Mumbai underworld, some gangstars are called in different depending upon their way of attacking, as " _____ Yeda " (mad person). Later it has become a part of his name. Likewise, we Indians continued with this bad name. I think this is mentioned in detail in Swamy Dayanand Saraswati's (Founder of Arya Samaj) " Satyartha Prakash " in Hindi and " Light of Truth " in English. He deals with it. H.K. Sudhakara ------------------------- Understanding Hindu Dharma. " Flow on self-purifying (H)indu with expansiveness... " Rig Veda. IX.96.21 Indu/Sindhu/Hindu/Sanatan Dharma/Vedic Dharma/Yoga Dharma--it is all the same. Those who would seek to separate the aforementioned only serve to tear apart. We see the results today of this division. We have those who unethically divorce the various [Hindu] Yogas from Hinduism; those who try and separate Sanantan Dharma and Hinduism. " A house divided... " Swami Param ------------------------------- PRIOR POSTING Namaskar I have gone through the mail " Misunderstanding of Dharma with Hinduism " . It is absolutely right the Hinduism has been misunderstood with dharma. It was started by britishers and has been followed by our politicians. Also, this is also true that no one has ever heard the word " HINDU " or " HINDUTVA " in any of our bhartiya granthas. All other related words like " HINDUTVA " , " HINDUSTAN " , " HINDUSTANI " , " HIND " , " HINDI " are derived from the word " HINDU " . So the question is that from where this word " HINDU " came from? Well, it was started, when Mugals shown their interest in our country " AKHAND BHARAT " (Incl. Present Bharat, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Nepal, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, Bhutan). They (Mugals) used to call " SINDHU " to the people who lives at the eastern side and the banks of River SINDU. But due to language problem they pronounce is as " HINDU " . Therefore according to them (Mugals), all the peoples living in Bharat, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Nepal, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, Bhutan are HINDU. Than how it could be HINDU DHARMA? Dharma is entirely different from HINDU. Hindu means a Sanskriti, the Culture, the Living Style of Bharat. According to our Vedas, Bhagvat Gita the word " Dharma " denotes the certain important Karmas (Must do work or Duties) of a human being like " Mtri Dharma (Duties & Responsibilities towards your Mother) " , " Pitri Dharma (Duties & Responsibilities towards your Father) " , " Desh Dharma (Duties & Responsibilities towards your Mother Land) " etc. Both the words " HINDU " & " DHARMA " have nothing to do with religion or caste. So i request all the readers to spread this fact as much as possible and understand the real meaning of " HINDU " & " DHARMA " Dhanyavad Avadhesh Didwania ----------------------------- My dear Vineet Sarvotam, My respects to all in this forum.....kindly allow me to share what I have heard from others in regard to the word " Hindu " . My opening words are not particularly " authoritative " so please kindly forgive me, but what I have to say will certainly be of interest in your discussion. Firstly, I have heard many times through the years, coming from many sadhaks, is that the word " Hindu " was coined by the British. They were unable to properly pronounce the word " Sindhus " in regard to the community/culture of individuals living on the bank of the Sindhus River, so the word " Hindu " came into the lanuauge. On a trip I made to India in the year 2000, I was on a small plane between one large city and another, and somehow or other, (we know the hand of the Lord is everywhere) the seat next to me was occupied by a sannyasi from Hrshikesh. I was conversing with a business man in a suit next to him, and explaiing this exact same thing, about the word Hindu being no where in the Vedas, and the business man turned to the sannyas (who did not speak English) and asked him about this, then turned to me, and said, " He says you are absolutely correrct. " I was amazed that the business man had no idea, though he was from India. Little by little, I have had to learn the sad truth that many born in India do not know what is Sanatan Dharma, nor the destructive influences of the British....or how to live by the teachings of Gita. I pray that those who do undeerstand this continually seek ways to spread it to others. There is a vrery nice section mentioned in a booklet called Sri Hari Nama Maha Mantra....compiled by Srila B.V. Narayana Maharaj.....there the Srimad Bhagavatam is quoted (1.2.8) " dharmah svanusthitah pumsam, visvaksena-kathasu yah.......notpadayed yadi ratim, shrama eva hi kevalam " ..... " The main purpose of varnasrama- dharma is to simplify the life of a person who is performing his natural occupational duty, so that he has sufficient time to hear hari-katha. However, if an attraction for hari-katha is not inspired, then all the reilgious activities he performs in accordance with varnasrama-dharma will be so much useless labour. " Respectfully, Mahalaksmi Dasi -------------------------------Dear Shri Vineet Sarvottam, All your questions are very relevant to appreciate what Dharma is. Is Sanatna Dharma same as Hindu Dharma. With my limited knowledge I would like to answer your doubts/points as below. Hindu word is not mentioned in many of our scriptures as for a number of centuries it related to residents of Hindustan i.e. areas EAST of Sindhu river (Indus) pronounced in Persian language as Hindu river. Even the word India is from Indus river as pronounced by Greeks. By 15th century A.D Hindu word acquired some religious connotation as in Adi Grantah Sahib Guru Nanak writes Turki Kaane and Hindu Anne i.e. Muslims were half blind and Hindu totally blind to God's Vedic religion. Guru Nanak tried his best to revive Vedas being himself belonging to BEDI family for whom Vedas were the supreme scriptures. Still the word Hindu was not fully accepted as relating to religion. Even today if a Muslim goes to Egypt he is known as HINDI i.e from Hindustan. For the first time in the 19th century when first Census was taken by British Government in India after 1857, All those religions which originated from out side India like Islam, Christianity, Jews etc their followers were counted separately and all religions/sects/cults which originated from India were clubbed as Hindu religion. Thus this practice is even followed today by government of India. When we say Hindus are over 80% it means Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists, Jains, Kabir panthis, Ganpatias, Arya samajists etc. The word Dharma first appeared in Rig Veda where it is mentioned " Rtm, Satyam, Dharmmam " Rta- the cosmic laws of social, moral and physical order are eternal truths (satyam) and following these Rta (laws) is Vedic Dharma. Later when due to certain vested interets some influential and poewerful people found difficult to follow Rta, many interpretation of Dharma started like duty, which binds, way of life etc. Only followers of Vedic metaphysics can appreciate the original meaning of Dharma. Thus Hindu Dharma, Sanatan Dharma (meaning eternal religion of Vedas) would largely mean the same thing. Infact for any individual if Vedas are the supreme scriptures, he/she is a follower of Sanatan Dharma. Since Bhagavad Gita is largely based on Vedic metaphysics, Dharma would mean Sanatan Dharma. Bhagavd Gita clealy says in Chapter 16 that study of Vedas is the supreme virtue. Any interpretation which contardict Vedic interpretation is not valid in Vedic Sanatan Dharma If still some doubts persist I can clarify further with my very limited knowledge. with regards, Prem Sabhlok -------------------------------- Dear Sadak, At one time only Hinduism existed. So it called Hinduism, Hindu Dharma etc. Later on came Jainism, Buddism, Christanity, and Islam to India when people started travelling by ships. Hindu Dharma purely meant Dharma in common to all living and non living things. One can see in many histories that God went to rescue his devote irrespective of caste and creed. Even Muslim Kabir Doss was devote of Panduranga. A slaughter Dharma Vajer in Maha Bharat is praised of his Pitru Bakthi. There are Dharmas concerning, women (Sree Dharma), Purusha (Man), Raja, Sanyasi, Etc. Then there is Prayachita Dharma, Bagavatha dharma, Deva Dharma, Surya Dharma, Pancha Bootha Dharma so on. These Dharmas are there in perfect scripts. All Dharmas are taken care by 33 crore demi gods, like Vayu, Agni, Indra etc. There is one called Yuga Dharma. That is the earth and it` s planets have Chatur yuga. Namely Satya Yuga, Thretha Yuga, Dwapara Yuga and Kali yuga. Longest is Satya Yuga. Shortest is Kali yuga around 14300 years. That is why Bramaji is depicted with 4 heads representing 4 yugas. This is also said in Old testament of Christanity as the world is square. In Geetha Bagavan says everything rest only on Dharma. Dharma means the rightfulness. In Ramayan scores of dharmas are said. Even drinking water by left hand is Adharma. Dharma is clearly said about food. Dharma is said about how man from morning to evening should behave related to environment. PLEASE NOTE ALL THESE DHARMAS ARE FOR NOT ONLY FOR HINDUS, BUT FOR SOCIETY AT LARGE. Bagavan Sri Krishna said that HE will incarnate from time to time, means that HE comes to protect the people who follow all these Dharmas. Such people are called Dharmathumas. HE does not come for people who are not rightious. We can see mass of humans killed for verious reasons. But if ONE dharmathuma is attacked, Bagavan response is immediate. In important scripts it said that in the event of abuses of God, God remains silent. But in the event of very small neglect/discomfort caused to HIS devote, God respondes at once. To give evidence from scripts/upanashid/puranas it is lengthy. Besides Bagavan says these are to be taught to a person who is consistant in seeking truth able to practice basic teachings of Sanathana Dharma. To learn incomplete a small science of human body MBBS one needs 5 years. To learn these Dharmas one needs contiuous effort day in and day out. Jai Sri Krishna baiya sathyanarayan ----------------------------- =============================================================== PRIOR POSTING Gita is for people of all religions. That is why there is no mention of Hindu religion. Indians were called Hindus by invaders because of the Indus river and our faith was given the name. Hinduism is a way of life rather than a religion and there is nothing in the Gita which does not apply to people of other religions. Hari Shanker Deo ------------------------------ " Dhritih kshama damo asteyam shaucham-indriya nigrahah Dhi vidya satyam-akrodho dashakam dharma lakshanam " (Manu Smriti, Ch.VI-92) (1) Dhriti – Patience, (2) Kshama – Forgiveness, (3) Damah – Self Control, (4) Asteya – Not Stealing, (5) Shaucha – Purity, (6) Indriya Nigraha – Sense Control, (7) Dhi – Intellect, (8) Vidya – Learning/Knowledge, (9) Satya – Truth, (10) Akrodha – Absence of Anger. this shows that dharma is secular as there is no reference to personal belief, god, satan heaven , hell, angels etc... Dharma is called Dao in chinese and therefore Daoism is subsciption to this idea. one of the 3 texts of this tradition is 'Tao Te ching' Its opening line is 'the Dao that can be named is not the dao', and this falls in line with our thinking. Compare this to christian islamic judaic views that god has only one name jehova, allah, etc.. patanjali in chapter 3 says chose your favourite deity, this also means that god is relegated to do whatever suits you, its really not that important. therefore hinduism or dharma is not a religion in the judaic club, gang, sense. and traditionally hindus have said that it is not a religion but a 'way of life'. personally i have never d to the way of life buisness because then surely islam is an absolute 'way of life'. however in context of the above this can be understood as something other than belief, faith, etc... sanatana dharma has also been translated as the perennial philosophy by Aldous huxley, see his book of the same name and take a look at his novel, Island. there is only one dharma and all the rest are panths, paths. Ravi Bakhsi ------------------------------ The Word Hinduism was derived from the Indus civilisation. About 2,000 years ago when the Greeks sailed up the Indus River, they were surprised to find a civilisation that existed and they refer to them as the Indus. Later this was changed to Hindus. Mangal Deolal ------------------------------- -------------------------------- GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: 1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify their doubts related to Gitaji shalokas. Therefore, responses which further clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be posted. 2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to substantiate your response. 3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas 4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting sadhaka's time. 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only. 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other organizations. 7. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone number, address etc. 8. Please do not address the response to a particular individual since the message is going to the entire group. 9. Due to the large readership, all responses may not be posted. 10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if content is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the group. 11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use to Sanskrit words only, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit bracketed wherever possible. MODERATOR Ram Ram ------------------------ Post message: Subscribe: - Un: - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 28, 2008 Report Share Posted December 28, 2008 Shree Hari Ram Ram To respected and eminent Gita Talk members, I seek your guidance in attaining responses to the following - 1) In all the Vedas, the Puranas, the Upanishads, in Bhagavad Gita, in Ramayana, and in Ramcharitramanas, in which places is there any mention of Hindu, Hinduism, Hindu Dharma, or Hindu Sampradaaya (sect). Is there anything written about them? I am seeking in these scriptures actual and existing proof or evidence. 2) In those scriptures, where there is specific mention of Dharma and related matters, in that very scripture, the meaning of the word Dharma, please provide from the main scripture the specific quotation/extract, not someone's commentaries or lectures or exposition. Is that Dharma understood as being " Hindu mat " (hindu philosophy) or " Hindu Dharma " ? If this has been written, in which chapter is it? What are the supporting documents / background, please kindly share. 3) That which is authoritatively called Bharatiya Sanatana Dharma, that versus the Dharma in Gitaji that for which Shri Krishna Bhagwaan agreed to descend (incarnate) time and again for the establishment of Dharma, in that the so-called one-ness that is revealed, regarding that I seek the scriptural evidence (uskaa shastriya pramaan chahiye). If preceding the Shri Krishna-lila, this Sanatana Dharma was existing, then was Bhagwaan's words/knowledge (shabda-gyaan) incomplete that instead of saying Sanatana Dharma, simple said Dharma? 4) If Gita Talk instead of being for all of mankind, is simply only for participants from the Hindu sect/doctrine, then please share and make available the related principles / rules / practices. If in the language there appears to be some impatience, than please forgive me, and kindly grace me with your continued generosity. Vineet Sarvottam ------------------------------ NEW POSTING Dear sadak, The scriptures and Vedas talks in whole about humanity and prakuthi (Nature). Besides they deal truth about Athuman/Bramam (Individual and Supreme Consciousness) which is all pervading. So it cannot differentiate Hindu, Muslim or Christianity. People travel from far, exchange views and form their own sects. Of late people form their own group under new names and new Gods also. In Kaliyug this deviation is expected to take place. Certain Gurus will call themselves as Bagavan and people will pray to them instead of Sri Krishna or Sri Rama Or Bagavan Shiva and form their new " ism " (similiar to how Hinduism has come about) Jai Sri Krishna baiya sathyanarayan ---------------------------- Priya 'Shree Hari', Pranams. || SHRI GURUBHYO NAMAH || Sarva-jana-aapto poornah siddhah apoorva Anandah puraakrtaAM | Atmani drshtah sarvatraaste nirupaadhikah nihshreyasi Brahmani OM|| HARIH OM || Season's Greetings and our prayers for the New Year - 'MAITRIM BHAJATA' MANTRAM PATHATA, AMRTAM PIBATA. Dr Shastry. With regards to your query, of any quotations for the term " Hindu " as appearing in our Sanskrit literature, we have plenty only after 18th century. Our scriptures do not speak of that because the term Hindu is only of a recent origin. Before Jesus, there was no usage of the term Christian and so is the case with every religion at the time of the prophet and before him. HIMAALAYAAT SAMAARABHYA YAVAD-INDU SAROVARAM | TAM DEVA-NIRMITAM DESHAM " HIMDUSTHANAM " PRACHAKSHATE || is a quotation from a Purana as well. This identifies that whole region and the people originating between the great Himalayas and the Indian ocean as Hindusthanam. There is yet another saying from another Purana - I've forgotten that shloka. When I find that out, I'll e mail. When India came into contact with the outsiders of the Indic religions, to identify themselves, they invented this 'Hindu' term as the common factor to the various denominations within this flexible, adaptable, ever-growing oraganic element. If you call us Sanatani, how do you distinguish the Arya Samajis, Brahmo Samajis, and all the numerous offsprings of the Mother Religion of them all? H I N D U = Shaiva- Sikh- Jain- Vaishnava, Buddhist Dr Shastry ------------------------------ Shree Hari Ram Ram Shastryji, kindly provide specific reference of the Purana. Ram Ram Gita Talk Moderators ------------------------------- Thanks respected Madan kaura ji for this elobrate explanation of Dharma... Parnaams kuldip suri ------------------------------ PRIOR POSTING Shree Hari || Ram Ram || Dear Vineetji Pls. forgive me, was not able to make it very clear, here is another attempt - as per the previous note, pls. note that the word 'Hindu' is not mentioned in any of our scriptures but there is a definite mention of " Sanatana Dharma " ' in Gitaji in the following verses: BG (11-18), Arjuna says - " tvamaksaram paramam veditavam, tvamasya visvasya param nidhanam tvamavayayah sassasvatadharmagopta, sanatanastvam puruso mato me " You are, I recognize, the Imperishable, the Supreme Being (Aksara) to be realized; You are the ultimate refuge of this universe; the protector of Eternal (Sanatana) Dharma and you are the eternally imperishable Being. 'Tvam sasvatadharmagopta' - Arjuna says, that when there is, decline of righteousness and rise of unrighteousness, the Lord by taking an incarnation, destroys the evil and protects " Sanatana Dharma " , the Dharma that has existed since the time immemorial and shall exist forever. (Ref: Sadhak-Sanjivani, pg.1251 in English and pg. 690 in Hindi). BG (14-27): Lord Krishna says - " brahmano hi pratishahamamtrsyavyavasya ca sasvatasya ca dharmasya sukhasyaikantikasya ca " For, I am the abode of Brahma, the immortal and the Imperishable, of Santana (Eternal) Dharma (Law of righteousness) and of absolute bliss. " Sasvatasya ca dharmasya " Lord Krishna, is the abode of eternal (Sanatana) Dharma and eternal (Sanatana) Dharma, is the abode of the Lord. It means that the Lord and eternal (Sanatana) Dharma, are one and the same.* * There are four important Dharmas (Religions) in the world. They are Hindu (Sanatana or Eternal), Buddhism, Christian and Muslim. The founders of these are Buddha, Christian and Mohammada respectively. But the Sanatana Dharma was not originated by anyone, it is eternal and beginning-less like the Lord. This is discovery made by sages from India. What is discovered, has its own pre-existence. The methods of God-realization described in other Dhramas are also the gift of " Sanatana Dharma " . Whenever there is a decline of this Dharma, the Lord incarnates Himself for the establishment of Dharma (Gitaji 4/7-8). So the Lord re-establishes it, He does not find it (just like when something is lost we find it). Actually all other religions are the product of Sanatana Dharma only. So if their principles are obeyed without any desire for their fruit, they will lead to salvation undoubtedly. A deep thought for salvation as is described in Sanatana Dharma is not available in other religions. The principles of Sanatana Dharma (which in time came to be known as Hinduism) are totally scientific and they lead to salvation. (Ref: Sadhak-Sanjivani, pg. 1577 in English and pg. 855 in Hindi). Ram Ram Humble pranams Madan Kaura ------------------------------ RAM RAM, here are the dictionary meanings of Dharma: 'Dharma' may be defined as the eternal law or the sum of many good qualities governing, upholding, and supporting creation and the world order. for example helping each other keeps the world running (Gitaji 3.10-11) It is the eternal relationship between the creator and His creatures. It also means way of life, doctrine, principle, prescribed duty, righteousness, right action, integrity, ideal conduct, custom, virtue, nature, essential quality, commandments, moral principles, spiritual truth, spirituality, spiritual values, and a function within the scriptural injunction or religion. = hariom roy ------------------------------ Shree Hari Ram Ram Bhaiyyaa Madan, Your reading and study is good. Now, I have not been able to study these scriptures at all. From your message from the Gita verses Gita 4:7, 8, 11-18, no where did I find the word Hindu or Sanatana Dharma. Eternal Dharma, is in itself to be understood as Sanatana Dharma, that was not to be found in Gitaji. I want to undertand the root, the essence of these compositions/works (kruti). Vineet Sarvottam -------------------------------- Shree Hari || Ram Ram || Dear Vineetji Thank you very much for such scholarly and loaded questions, I do not consider myself qualified to answer the questions adequately but here is an humble attempt: QUESTION 1: After consulting with the scholars in the Detroit area, I learnt to confirm my own idea that the words " Hindu " , " Hinduism " , " Hindu Dharma " are not found in Vedas, Upnishads, Brahma Sutras, Ramayana, Ramcharitmanas or Puranas. Also, there is no mention of " Hindu " in 3000 stotras composed by Adi Shankracharya and many more by numerous other sages. Though there is an extensive mention of gods in our scriptures, for example in the Bhagavad Gita, many of these gods are mentioned in Chapter 10 and 11. At some point in time in recent history, these gods have come to be known as Hindu gods. According to one theory, how the Sanatana Dharma got the name of Hinduism, it is believed that as Persians came towards India they called the people living on the east side of river Indus (Sindhu in Sanskrit) as " Hindus " because they pronounce " S " as " H " , so from `Sindhu' it became `Hindu'. During the Mohammedan rule we took up the word ourselves. But the word " Hindu " lost its significance since all people who live on this side of the Indus river in modern times do not follow the same religion as they did in ancient times, there are proper Hindus, Mohammedans, Christians, Jains etc. who also live in India. QUESTION 2: The meaning of Dharma is given as which holds and sustains (It is said in Mahabharat – " when one follows Dharma, it protects " ). Dharma is broadly classified into two ways - Sanatana (Eternal) Dharma and Swadharma (Individual duty) Meaning of Sanatana: - That which is an eternal – ever was, is and ever will be - That which is not subject to change - Universal – fundamental truths in it exist at all times and all places Meaning of Dharma: - That which holds and sustains ( " When one follows Dharma it protects " - Mahabharat) - The levels of Dharma are specified at different levels: Swadharma (Individual duty) - .. Personal Dharma (As it pertains to personal cleaniness and good conduct etc.) .. Family Dharma (Duty towards other family relationships) .. Society Dharma (Duty towards social setting, village, city or town) .. National Dharma (Duty towards one's nation) The Swadharma or individual duty varies with time, place, conditions or circumstances. For Swadharma Dharma, refer to Gitaji verses - 2/ 31-37, 3/35 and 18- 47. Sanatana Dharma never changes it is: - That which is an eternal order, governing the laws for the smooth functioning of this universe - That which is the inherent nature of things (Ex: Sun giving light, Basic virtues - Truth, Non-voilence, Compassion, Charity ...) - That which encompasses all the Spiritual Laws - That which contains the spiritual laws are eternal and are a means of God realization - That which is the source of the spiritual laws For Sanatana Dharma refer to Gitaji verses 4-7, 4-8 and 11-18 QUESTION 3. Whenever Dharma is mentioned in Gitaji, it is meant to be in a broader sense as Sanatana Dharma only. When Dharma applies to individual duties then the word `Swadharma' is used. This fact is brought up in several places in Gitaji: BG (4-1 and 4-2) In the context of Karma Yoga, Lord Krishna says, I taught this imperishable Yoga to Vivasvan (Sun God), Vivasvan told it to Manu and Manu spoke it to Iksvaku. Thus handed down from father to son, the Royal sages knew it till that Yoga was lost to the world through long lapse of Time, O' Paramtapa (Arjuna). BG (4-7 and 4-8) Whenever there is a decline in righteousness and an upsurge in righteousness, O Arjuna, I then manifest Myself. For the protection of the virtuous, for the destruction of the wicked and for establishing righteousness, I manifest myself from age to age. BG (11-18) Thou art the Imperishable, the Supreme to be realized. Thou art the Ultimate Resort of the Universe; Thou art the protector of the Dharma; Thou art the imperishable eternal Prime Person, I consider. QUESTION 4. All secular and spiritual knowledge is based on Vedas, all authoritative scriptures are derived from Vedas only. These scriptures address to the human being in general, therefore the Sanatana Dharma applies to all races, creeds and cultures, and not just to Hindus. Humble regards, Madan Kaura ----------------------------- Pranaams to members Dear Vineet, please see this - (1) Hindusthan 'HIMAALAYAAM SAMAARAMBHYA YAAVAT HINDU SAROVARAM TAM DEVA NIRMITAM DESAM HINDUSTHANAM PRACHAKSHATHE' (2) Hindu 'SINDHU PARYANTHAAM YASYAA BHAARATHA BHOOMIKA, MATHRUBHU : , PITHRUBHUSCHAIVA, SA VAI, HINDU ITHI SMRUTHA' I am not able to locate the authority for this. Pranaams Vijayan ------------------------------ PRIOR POSTING Dear All, MEANING OF THE WORD " HINDU " I recently joined this group and found that there are interesting brain storming sessions going on. Can someone please help me understand exact roots of word 'Hindu' ? I could find roots for 'Vedic' but not 'Hindu' anywhere in Bhagwad Gita. If someone please shed some light, it will be great help to our research group. Regards, -Nisarg Joshi Serial Vedic Learner ----------------------------- Dear Shri Vineetji, I read your mail with interest.Put briefly, Lord Krishna in the Gita [or whoever compiled it from earlier version]went beyond the basic tenets of vedas/vedanta/Upanishads.To say that Gitacharya merely summarised what was in the Upanishads is not correct. In this respect,the word Dharma used by the Lord means Sanatana Dharma (Eternal Law, Eternal Principles) and has wide meaning. Lord Krishna did not speak for Hindus only. Infact He says that whatever God/gods you may worship, it ends up in Me---that is Universal Spirit. There is no use in discussing these things from purely historical or theological perspective. Various sampradayas or traditions/sects came right from the time of Kashmir Saivism or even earlier. The worship of Vishnu brought in Puranas with emphasis on Srimad Bhagavatam...then many sects came into being. Further there is no Hindu Dharma, Christian Dharma or Islam Dharma or Jewish Dharma. As I understand, there is only one Dharma, but if you take Dharma to mean a religion or traditions, there are many. Dharma means only 'righteousness' and not 'rites.' The word Hindu or Hindu faith or religion came much later, not in Vedic/Upanishadic times...period. In Shirdi Sai Smaran, ---Dr N K Srinivasan -------------------------- Shree Hari Ram Ram All Sadhaks, please include reference to the particular scripture, as it is important for posting to this topic. Gita Talk Moderator Ram Ram ---------------------------- -------------------------- PRIOR POSTING Respected readers, My daNdavats to all in this forum..... So many beautiful thoughts......I had one more piece of information I wished to share, which is that the word " dharma " I have always heard translates as " that which one cannot sepatate from one's very existence " . So, the dharma of sugar is sweetness, the dharma of water is wetness, and the dharma of the soul is service. An intelligent person will ask, " OK, so who or what can I serve eternally? " Then the undeerstandig of Sanatana dharma, meaning more or less, our eternal occupation......service to the Lord. When coming to Gita, and the ancient Vedic tradition, one finds so many wonderful, indepth and personal concepts of what is pleasing to the service of Radha Krsna, and how to act day by day, minute by minute, instructions on how to bath, how to disciplie the mind, how to learn self restraint, peacefulness, etc. etc. This is all preliminary to the goal, a loving relationship with God. reSpectfully, Mahalaksmi Dasi ----------------------------- Namaste It is correct that, the word HINDU is not mentioned in Vedas, etc. According to Persian language, Hindu means, Kafir, chor, etc. The Persians for whatever reasons, they called Indians Hindus and we Indian also started calling us HINDU without knowing the real meaning. In Mumbai underworld, some gangstars are called in different depending upon their way of attacking, as " _____ Yeda " (mad person). Later it has become a part of his name. Likewise, we Indians continued with this bad name. I think this is mentioned in detail in Swamy Dayanand Saraswati's (Founder of Arya Samaj) " Satyartha Prakash " in Hindi and " Light of Truth " in English. He deals with it. H.K. Sudhakara ------------------------- Understanding Hindu Dharma. " Flow on self-purifying (H)indu with expansiveness... " Rig Veda. IX.96.21 Indu/Sindhu/Hindu/Sanatan Dharma/Vedic Dharma/Yoga Dharma--it is all the same. Those who would seek to separate the aforementioned only serve to tear apart. We see the results today of this division. We have those who unethically divorce the various [Hindu] Yogas from Hinduism; those who try and separate Sanantan Dharma and Hinduism. " A house divided... " Swami Param ------------------------------- PRIOR POSTING Namaskar I have gone through the mail " Misunderstanding of Dharma with Hinduism " . It is absolutely right the Hinduism has been misunderstood with dharma. It was started by britishers and has been followed by our politicians. Also, this is also true that no one has ever heard the word " HINDU " or " HINDUTVA " in any of our bhartiya granthas. All other related words like " HINDUTVA " , " HINDUSTAN " , " HINDUSTANI " , " HIND " , " HINDI " are derived from the word " HINDU " . So the question is that from where this word " HINDU " came from? Well, it was started, when Mugals shown their interest in our country " AKHAND BHARAT " (Incl. Present Bharat, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Nepal, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, Bhutan). They (Mugals) used to call " SINDHU " to the people who lives at the eastern side and the banks of River SINDU. But due to language problem they pronounce is as " HINDU " . Therefore according to them (Mugals), all the peoples living in Bharat, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Nepal, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, Bhutan are HINDU. Than how it could be HINDU DHARMA? Dharma is entirely different from HINDU. Hindu means a Sanskriti, the Culture, the Living Style of Bharat. According to our Vedas, Bhagvat Gita the word " Dharma " denotes the certain important Karmas (Must do work or Duties) of a human being like " Mtri Dharma (Duties & Responsibilities towards your Mother) " , " Pitri Dharma (Duties & Responsibilities towards your Father) " , " Desh Dharma (Duties & Responsibilities towards your Mother Land) " etc. Both the words " HINDU " & " DHARMA " have nothing to do with religion or caste. So i request all the readers to spread this fact as much as possible and understand the real meaning of " HINDU " & " DHARMA " Dhanyavad Avadhesh Didwania ----------------------------- My dear Vineet Sarvotam, My respects to all in this forum.....kindly allow me to share what I have heard from others in regard to the word " Hindu " . My opening words are not particularly " authoritative " so please kindly forgive me, but what I have to say will certainly be of interest in your discussion. Firstly, I have heard many times through the years, coming from many sadhaks, is that the word " Hindu " was coined by the British. They were unable to properly pronounce the word " Sindhus " in regard to the community/culture of individuals living on the bank of the Sindhus River, so the word " Hindu " came into the lanuauge. On a trip I made to India in the year 2000, I was on a small plane between one large city and another, and somehow or other, (we know the hand of the Lord is everywhere) the seat next to me was occupied by a sannyasi from Hrshikesh. I was conversing with a business man in a suit next to him, and explaiing this exact same thing, about the word Hindu being no where in the Vedas, and the business man turned to the sannyas (who did not speak English) and asked him about this, then turned to me, and said, " He says you are absolutely correrct. " I was amazed that the business man had no idea, though he was from India. Little by little, I have had to learn the sad truth that many born in India do not know what is Sanatan Dharma, nor the destructive influences of the British....or how to live by the teachings of Gita. I pray that those who do undeerstand this continually seek ways to spread it to others. There is a vrery nice section mentioned in a booklet called Sri Hari Nama Maha Mantra....compiled by Srila B.V. Narayana Maharaj.....there the Srimad Bhagavatam is quoted (1.2.8) " dharmah svanusthitah pumsam, visvaksena-kathasu yah.......notpadayed yadi ratim, shrama eva hi kevalam " ..... " The main purpose of varnasrama- dharma is to simplify the life of a person who is performing his natural occupational duty, so that he has sufficient time to hear hari-katha. However, if an attraction for hari-katha is not inspired, then all the reilgious activities he performs in accordance with varnasrama-dharma will be so much useless labour. " Respectfully, Mahalaksmi Dasi -------------------------------Dear Shri Vineet Sarvottam, All your questions are very relevant to appreciate what Dharma is. Is Sanatna Dharma same as Hindu Dharma. With my limited knowledge I would like to answer your doubts/points as below. Hindu word is not mentioned in many of our scriptures as for a number of centuries it related to residents of Hindustan i.e. areas EAST of Sindhu river (Indus) pronounced in Persian language as Hindu river. Even the word India is from Indus river as pronounced by Greeks. By 15th century A.D Hindu word acquired some religious connotation as in Adi Grantah Sahib Guru Nanak writes Turki Kaane and Hindu Anne i.e. Muslims were half blind and Hindu totally blind to God's Vedic religion. Guru Nanak tried his best to revive Vedas being himself belonging to BEDI family for whom Vedas were the supreme scriptures. Still the word Hindu was not fully accepted as relating to religion. Even today if a Muslim goes to Egypt he is known as HINDI i.e from Hindustan. For the first time in the 19th century when first Census was taken by British Government in India after 1857, All those religions which originated from out side India like Islam, Christianity, Jews etc their followers were counted separately and all religions/sects/cults which originated from India were clubbed as Hindu religion. Thus this practice is even followed today by government of India. When we say Hindus are over 80% it means Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists, Jains, Kabir panthis, Ganpatias, Arya samajists etc. The word Dharma first appeared in Rig Veda where it is mentioned " Rtm, Satyam, Dharmmam " Rta- the cosmic laws of social, moral and physical order are eternal truths (satyam) and following these Rta (laws) is Vedic Dharma. Later when due to certain vested interets some influential and poewerful people found difficult to follow Rta, many interpretation of Dharma started like duty, which binds, way of life etc. Only followers of Vedic metaphysics can appreciate the original meaning of Dharma. Thus Hindu Dharma, Sanatan Dharma (meaning eternal religion of Vedas) would largely mean the same thing. Infact for any individual if Vedas are the supreme scriptures, he/she is a follower of Sanatan Dharma. Since Bhagavad Gita is largely based on Vedic metaphysics, Dharma would mean Sanatan Dharma. Bhagavd Gita clealy says in Chapter 16 that study of Vedas is the supreme virtue. Any interpretation which contardict Vedic interpretation is not valid in Vedic Sanatan Dharma If still some doubts persist I can clarify further with my very limited knowledge. with regards, Prem Sabhlok -------------------------------- Dear Sadak, At one time only Hinduism existed. So it called Hinduism, Hindu Dharma etc. Later on came Jainism, Buddism, Christanity, and Islam to India when people started travelling by ships. Hindu Dharma purely meant Dharma in common to all living and non living things. One can see in many histories that God went to rescue his devote irrespective of caste and creed. Even Muslim Kabir Doss was devote of Panduranga. A slaughter Dharma Vajer in Maha Bharat is praised of his Pitru Bakthi. There are Dharmas concerning, women (Sree Dharma), Purusha (Man), Raja, Sanyasi, Etc. Then there is Prayachita Dharma, Bagavatha dharma, Deva Dharma, Surya Dharma, Pancha Bootha Dharma so on. These Dharmas are there in perfect scripts. All Dharmas are taken care by 33 crore demi gods, like Vayu, Agni, Indra etc. There is one called Yuga Dharma. That is the earth and it` s planets have Chatur yuga. Namely Satya Yuga, Thretha Yuga, Dwapara Yuga and Kali yuga. Longest is Satya Yuga. Shortest is Kali yuga around 14300 years. That is why Bramaji is depicted with 4 heads representing 4 yugas. This is also said in Old testament of Christanity as the world is square. In Geetha Bagavan says everything rest only on Dharma. Dharma means the rightfulness. In Ramayan scores of dharmas are said. Even drinking water by left hand is Adharma. Dharma is clearly said about food. Dharma is said about how man from morning to evening should behave related to environment. PLEASE NOTE ALL THESE DHARMAS ARE FOR NOT ONLY FOR HINDUS, BUT FOR SOCIETY AT LARGE. Bagavan Sri Krishna said that HE will incarnate from time to time, means that HE comes to protect the people who follow all these Dharmas. Such people are called Dharmathumas. HE does not come for people who are not rightious. We can see mass of humans killed for verious reasons. But if ONE dharmathuma is attacked, Bagavan response is immediate. In important scripts it said that in the event of abuses of God, God remains silent. But in the event of very small neglect/discomfort caused to HIS devote, God respondes at once. To give evidence from scripts/upanashid/puranas it is lengthy. Besides Bagavan says these are to be taught to a person who is consistant in seeking truth able to practice basic teachings of Sanathana Dharma. To learn incomplete a small science of human body MBBS one needs 5 years. To learn these Dharmas one needs contiuous effort day in and day out. Jai Sri Krishna baiya sathyanarayan ----------------------------- =============================================================== PRIOR POSTING Gita is for people of all religions. That is why there is no mention of Hindu religion. Indians were called Hindus by invaders because of the Indus river and our faith was given the name. Hinduism is a way of life rather than a religion and there is nothing in the Gita which does not apply to people of other religions. Hari Shanker Deo ------------------------------ " Dhritih kshama damo asteyam shaucham-indriya nigrahah Dhi vidya satyam-akrodho dashakam dharma lakshanam " (Manu Smriti, Ch.VI-92) (1) Dhriti – Patience, (2) Kshama – Forgiveness, (3) Damah – Self Control, (4) Asteya – Not Stealing, (5) Shaucha – Purity, (6) Indriya Nigraha – Sense Control, (7) Dhi – Intellect, (8) Vidya – Learning/Knowledge, (9) Satya – Truth, (10) Akrodha – Absence of Anger. this shows that dharma is secular as there is no reference to personal belief, god, satan heaven , hell, angels etc... Dharma is called Dao in chinese and therefore Daoism is subsciption to this idea. one of the 3 texts of this tradition is 'Tao Te ching' Its opening line is 'the Dao that can be named is not the dao', and this falls in line with our thinking. Compare this to christian islamic judaic views that god has only one name jehova, allah, etc.. patanjali in chapter 3 says chose your favourite deity, this also means that god is relegated to do whatever suits you, its really not that important. therefore hinduism or dharma is not a religion in the judaic club, gang, sense. and traditionally hindus have said that it is not a religion but a 'way of life'. personally i have never d to the way of life buisness because then surely islam is an absolute 'way of life'. however in context of the above this can be understood as something other than belief, faith, etc... sanatana dharma has also been translated as the perennial philosophy by Aldous huxley, see his book of the same name and take a look at his novel, Island. there is only one dharma and all the rest are panths, paths. Ravi Bakhsi ------------------------------ The Word Hinduism was derived from the Indus civilisation. About 2,000 years ago when the Greeks sailed up the Indus River, they were surprised to find a civilisation that existed and they refer to them as the Indus. Later this was changed to Hindus. Mangal Deolal ------------------------------- -------------------------------- GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: 1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify their doubts related to Gitaji shalokas. Therefore, responses which further clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be posted. 2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to substantiate your response. 3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas 4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting sadhaka's time. 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only. 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other organizations. 7. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone number, address etc. 8. Please do not address the response to a particular individual since the message is going to the entire group. 9. Due to the large readership, all responses may not be posted. 10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if content is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the group. 11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use to Sanskrit words only, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit bracketed wherever possible. MODERATOR Ram Ram ------------------------ Post message: Subscribe: - Un: - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 31, 2008 Report Share Posted December 31, 2008 Shree Hari Ram Ram To respected and eminent Gita Talk members, I seek your guidance in attaining responses to the following - 1) In all the Vedas, the Puranas, the Upanishads, in Bhagavad Gita, in Ramayana, and in Ramcharitramanas, in which places is there any mention of Hindu, Hinduism, Hindu Dharma, or Hindu Sampradaaya (sect). Is there anything written about them? I am seeking in these scriptures actual and existing proof or evidence. 2) In those scriptures, where there is specific mention of Dharma and related matters, in that very scripture, the meaning of the word Dharma, please provide from the main scripture the specific quotation/extract, not someone's commentaries or lectures or exposition. Is that Dharma understood as being " Hindu mat " (hindu philosophy) or " Hindu Dharma " ? If this has been written, in which chapter is it? What are the supporting documents / background, please kindly share. 3) That which is authoritatively called Bharatiya Sanatana Dharma, that versus the Dharma in Gitaji that for which Shri Krishna Bhagwaan agreed to descend (incarnate) time and again for the establishment of Dharma, in that the so-called one-ness that is revealed, regarding that I seek the scriptural evidence (uskaa shastriya pramaan chahiye). If preceding the Shri Krishna-lila, this Sanatana Dharma was existing, then was Bhagwaan's words/knowledge (shabda-gyaan) incomplete that instead of saying Sanatana Dharma, simple said Dharma? 4) If Gita Talk instead of being for all of mankind, is simply only for participants from the Hindu sect/doctrine, then please share and make available the related principles / rules / practices. If in the language there appears to be some impatience, than please forgive me, and kindly grace me with your continued generosity. Vineet Sarvottam ------------------------------ NEW POSTING Shree Hari Ram Ram Madan Bhaiyyaa, in Gitaji's Chapter 11, Shloka 18 Arjuna says to Bhagwaan the word " Shaasvatdharmagoptaa " (protector of eternal Dharma, protector of righteousness) not " Sanatanadharmagoptaa " (protector of one who accepts Sanatana Dharma) nor " Hindudharmagoptaa " (protector of Hindu Dharma) and for Bhagwaan Himself he calls Him " Sanatana Puruso " (Existing from time immemorial, Eternal Imperishable Being) not " Shaasvat Purush " (Immortal Being), nor " Hindu Purush " (Of Hindu Origin). He " Sanatana " (Eternal) who is beyond (past, present and future), who is Truth. That " Shaasvatdharma " whose protection Arjuna was able to speak of to Bhagavaan, that alone in Kaliyug is being called Sanatana Dharma and will now be called out as Hindu Dharma, such has not been declared in the entire Mahabharat holy book. In Sadhak Sanjivani (Hindi) page 924 in the lower half of the page, Swamiji Himself has said – " Hindu dharma is " anaadi " (without a beginning), " anant " (infinite) and " Shaasvat " (eternal). This has been written so because the remaining three religions and sacred legends most spoken off, - Islam, Buddhist, and Christianity, have been made known by great souls, whereas " Dharma " (not Hindu dharma, not Sanatana Dharma) is without a beginning (anaadi), infinite (anant) , eternal (shaashvat) and sanatana (existing from time immemorial). With this Dharma, no Hindu, no Muslim, no Buddhist, no Sikh, no Christian, no Jain, no Judaic, no other word, in the form of preposition (upasarg) is essential. (and Bhagwaan Himself has said that on the destruction of righteousness - Dharma, He has talked about His manisfestation. He has not talked of some " Sanatana Dharma " or some " Hindu dharma " or some " Shaashvat dharma " . Just as there cannot be two Paramatmas (Supreme Consciousness), in the same manner, Eternal is only One and that is Paramatma (whatever Name we may chose to call that One). If Paramatma is Eternal and without a beginning, and Hindu Dharma is " Eternal " then in these two, which came first and which came later? Neither came first, nor any came after. Both are together names of that One and only Reality (Truth). Whether some one out of their delusion, calls this Dharma – Hindu / Sanatana by joining a group or organization believes and presupposes it to be it's own group's great treasures, then with regards to this matter, what can Dharma do? In the same manner, if Gitaji is considered to be the scriptures/doctrines of a particular sect/group, then I would object and oppose this group. If Gita has been relayed for a particular group/sect, then was Bhagwaan not capable of saying so that the Path of Yoga shared in the Gita is for Hindus? Oh! I forgot that Bhagavaan has in no place (Gitaji or otherwise) used the word Hindu at all. Therefore it is best if this discussion is put together, as Gita-Talk members deserving of honor, do not wish to see Gitaji shared with all of mankind. So be it! Sarvottam. ------------------------ Dear Madanlalji Kaura I AM ENJOYING AND APPRECIATIVE O DISCOURSE WHICH HAS BEEN GOING ON IN THIS THANKS A COMMENT HERE IS WHAT YOU QUOTED IN THIS TRAILING EMAILS BG (4-7 and 4-8) Whenever there is a decline in righteousness and an upsurge in righteousness, IS THIS AN UPSURGE UNRIGHTEOUSNESS OR RIGHTEOUSNESS AS YOU QUOTED LOOKS TO ME IT SHOULD BE UPSURGE IN UNRIGHTEOUESNESS BUT MAY BE I AM WRONG MAY BE YOU CAN CLARIFY AS BHAGWAN KRISHNA COMES ON THE EARTH BECAUSE O UNRIGHTEOUSNESS ANY HOW THANKS O Arjuna, I then manifest Myself. For the protection of the virtuous, for the destruction of the wicked and for establishing righteousness, I manifest myself from age to age Dinesh Patel ------------------------------ Faith is only answer for all Unknown from " lrresources " ----------------------------- Shree Hari With all respect to any Dharma.Let me share from where did the word Hindu derived.In An Ancient India the geographical area was vast extended.The Sind river was in India.The people from Sind was actually traders and preachers who migrated everywhere.Sind was later on started pronounced as Hind, subsequently Hindu. Now I fail to Understand why there is so much hue and cry as a religion.It is not religion but actually it the people staying were called as Hindu. Let me be clear example:people from Mahad called as Mahadkar,from Chembur as Chemburkar ect. Let us be one as Hindu in this auspicious Land and be called as Hindustani rather then dividing ourselves. Thanks to all such person who say so for their own benifits and cheap publicity in the eyes of innocent people and further misguiding. Dharma according to me and as I understood means our Kartavya (duty) towards our Nation, Mother Earth. Thanks, God Bless You Bhawar Shah -------------------------------- PRIOR POSTING Shree Hari || Ram Ram || Dear Vineetji Pls. forgive me, was not able to make it very clear, here is another attempt - as per the previous note, pls. note that the word 'Hindu' is not mentioned in any of our scriptures but there is a definite mention of " Sanatana Dharma " ' in Gitaji in the following verses: BG (11-18), Arjuna says - " tvamaksaram paramam veditavam, tvamasya visvasya param nidhanam tvamavayayah sassasvatadharmagopta, sanatanastvam puruso mato me " You are, I recognize, the Imperishable, the Supreme Being (Aksara) to be realized; You are the ultimate refuge of this universe; the protector of Eternal (Sanatana) Dharma and you are the eternally imperishable Being. 'Tvam sasvatadharmagopta' - Arjuna says, that when there is, decline of righteousness and rise of unrighteousness, the Lord by taking an incarnation, destroys the evil and protects " Sanatana Dharma " , the Dharma that has existed since the time immemorial and shall exist forever. (Ref: Sadhak-Sanjivani, pg.1251 in English and pg. 690 in Hindi). BG (14-27): Lord Krishna says - " brahmano hi pratishahamamtrsyavyavasya ca sasvatasya ca dharmasya sukhasyaikantikasya ca " For, I am the abode of Brahma, the immortal and the Imperishable, of Santana (Eternal) Dharma (Law of righteousness) and of absolute bliss. " Sasvatasya ca dharmasya " Lord Krishna, is the abode of eternal (Sanatana) Dharma and eternal (Sanatana) Dharma, is the abode of the Lord. It means that the Lord and eternal (Sanatana) Dharma, are one and the same.* * There are four important Dharmas (Religions) in the world. They are Hindu (Sanatana or Eternal), Buddhism, Christian and Muslim. The founders of these are Buddha, Christian and Mohammada respectively. But the Sanatana Dharma was not originated by anyone, it is eternal and beginning-less like the Lord. This is discovery made by sages from India. What is discovered, has its own pre-existence. The methods of God-realization described in other Dhramas are also the gift of " Sanatana Dharma " . Whenever there is a decline of this Dharma, the Lord incarnates Himself for the establishment of Dharma (Gitaji 4/7-8). So the Lord re-establishes it, He does not find it (just like when something is lost we find it). Actually all other religions are the product of Sanatana Dharma only. So if their principles are obeyed without any desire for their fruit, they will lead to salvation undoubtedly. A deep thought for salvation as is described in Sanatana Dharma is not available in other religions. The principles of Sanatana Dharma (which in time came to be known as Hinduism) are totally scientific and they lead to salvation. (Ref: Sadhak-Sanjivani, pg. 1577 in English and pg. 855 in Hindi). Ram Ram Humble pranams Madan Kaura ------------------------------ RAM RAM, here are the dictionary meanings of Dharma: 'Dharma' may be defined as the eternal law or the sum of many good qualities governing, upholding, and supporting creation and the world order. for example helping each other keeps the world running (Gitaji 3.10-11) It is the eternal relationship between the creator and His creatures. It also means way of life, doctrine, principle, prescribed duty, righteousness, right action, integrity, ideal conduct, custom, virtue, nature, essential quality, commandments, moral principles, spiritual truth, spirituality, spiritual values, and a function within the scriptural injunction or religion. = hariom roy ------------------------------ Shree Hari Ram Ram Bhaiyyaa Madan, Your reading and study is good. Now, I have not been able to study these scriptures at all. From your message from the Gita verses Gita 4:7, 8, 11-18, no where did I find the word Hindu or Sanatana Dharma. Eternal Dharma, is in itself to be understood as Sanatana Dharma, that was not to be found in Gitaji. I want to undertand the root, the essence of these compositions/works (kruti). Vineet Sarvottam -------------------------------- Shree Hari || Ram Ram || Dear Vineetji Thank you very much for such scholarly and loaded questions, I do not consider myself qualified to answer the questions adequately but here is an humble attempt: QUESTION 1: After consulting with the scholars in the Detroit area, I learnt to confirm my own idea that the words " Hindu " , " Hinduism " , " Hindu Dharma " are not found in Vedas, Upnishads, Brahma Sutras, Ramayana, Ramcharitmanas or Puranas. Also, there is no mention of " Hindu " in 3000 stotras composed by Adi Shankracharya and many more by numerous other sages. Though there is an extensive mention of gods in our scriptures, for example in the Bhagavad Gita, many of these gods are mentioned in Chapter 10 and 11. At some point in time in recent history, these gods have come to be known as Hindu gods. According to one theory, how the Sanatana Dharma got the name of Hinduism, it is believed that as Persians came towards India they called the people living on the east side of river Indus (Sindhu in Sanskrit) as " Hindus " because they pronounce " S " as " H " , so from `Sindhu' it became `Hindu'. During the Mohammedan rule we took up the word ourselves. But the word " Hindu " lost its significance since all people who live on this side of the Indus river in modern times do not follow the same religion as they did in ancient times, there are proper Hindus, Mohammedans, Christians, Jains etc. who also live in India. QUESTION 2: The meaning of Dharma is given as which holds and sustains (It is said in Mahabharat – " when one follows Dharma, it protects " ). Dharma is broadly classified into two ways - Sanatana (Eternal) Dharma and Swadharma (Individual duty) Meaning of Sanatana: - That which is an eternal – ever was, is and ever will be - That which is not subject to change - Universal – fundamental truths in it exist at all times and all places Meaning of Dharma: - That which holds and sustains ( " When one follows Dharma it protects " - Mahabharat) - The levels of Dharma are specified at different levels: Swadharma (Individual duty) - .. Personal Dharma (As it pertains to personal cleaniness and good conduct etc.) .. Family Dharma (Duty towards other family relationships) .. Society Dharma (Duty towards social setting, village, city or town) .. National Dharma (Duty towards one's nation) The Swadharma or individual duty varies with time, place, conditions or circumstances. For Swadharma Dharma, refer to Gitaji verses - 2/ 31-37, 3/35 and 18- 47. Sanatana Dharma never changes it is: - That which is an eternal order, governing the laws for the smooth functioning of this universe - That which is the inherent nature of things (Ex: Sun giving light, Basic virtues - Truth, Non-voilence, Compassion, Charity ...) - That which encompasses all the Spiritual Laws - That which contains the spiritual laws are eternal and are a means of God realization - That which is the source of the spiritual laws For Sanatana Dharma refer to Gitaji verses 4-7, 4-8 and 11-18 QUESTION 3. Whenever Dharma is mentioned in Gitaji, it is meant to be in a broader sense as Sanatana Dharma only. When Dharma applies to individual duties then the word `Swadharma' is used. This fact is brought up in several places in Gitaji: BG (4-1 and 4-2) In the context of Karma Yoga, Lord Krishna says, I taught this imperishable Yoga to Vivasvan (Sun God), Vivasvan told it to Manu and Manu spoke it to Iksvaku. Thus handed down from father to son, the Royal sages knew it till that Yoga was lost to the world through long lapse of Time, O' Paramtapa (Arjuna). BG (4-7 and 4-8) Whenever there is a decline in righteousness and an upsurge in righteousness, O Arjuna, I then manifest Myself. For the protection of the virtuous, for the destruction of the wicked and for establishing righteousness, I manifest myself from age to age. BG (11-18) Thou art the Imperishable, the Supreme to be realized. Thou art the Ultimate Resort of the Universe; Thou art the protector of the Dharma; Thou art the imperishable eternal Prime Person, I consider. QUESTION 4. All secular and spiritual knowledge is based on Vedas, all authoritative scriptures are derived from Vedas only. These scriptures address to the human being in general, therefore the Sanatana Dharma applies to all races, creeds and cultures, and not just to Hindus. Humble regards, Madan Kaura ----------------------------- Pranaams to members Dear Vineet, please see this - (1) Hindusthan 'HIMAALAYAAM SAMAARAMBHYA YAAVAT HINDU SAROVARAM TAM DEVA NIRMITAM DESAM HINDUSTHANAM PRACHAKSHATHE' (2) Hindu 'SINDHU PARYANTHAAM YASYAA BHAARATHA BHOOMIKA, MATHRUBHU : , PITHRUBHUSCHAIVA, SA VAI, HINDU ITHI SMRUTHA' I am not able to locate the authority for this. Pranaams Vijayan ------------------------------ PRIOR POSTING Dear All, MEANING OF THE WORD " HINDU " I recently joined this group and found that there are interesting brain storming sessions going on. Can someone please help me understand exact roots of word 'Hindu' ? I could find roots for 'Vedic' but not 'Hindu' anywhere in Bhagwad Gita. If someone please shed some light, it will be great help to our research group. Regards, -Nisarg Joshi Serial Vedic Learner ----------------------------- Dear Shri Vineetji, I read your mail with interest.Put briefly, Lord Krishna in the Gita [or whoever compiled it from earlier version]went beyond the basic tenets of vedas/vedanta/Upanishads.To say that Gitacharya merely summarised what was in the Upanishads is not correct. In this respect,the word Dharma used by the Lord means Sanatana Dharma (Eternal Law, Eternal Principles) and has wide meaning. Lord Krishna did not speak for Hindus only. Infact He says that whatever God/gods you may worship, it ends up in Me---that is Universal Spirit. There is no use in discussing these things from purely historical or theological perspective. Various sampradayas or traditions/sects came right from the time of Kashmir Saivism or even earlier. The worship of Vishnu brought in Puranas with emphasis on Srimad Bhagavatam...then many sects came into being. Further there is no Hindu Dharma, Christian Dharma or Islam Dharma or Jewish Dharma. As I understand, there is only one Dharma, but if you take Dharma to mean a religion or traditions, there are many. Dharma means only 'righteousness' and not 'rites.' The word Hindu or Hindu faith or religion came much later, not in Vedic/Upanishadic times...period. In Shirdi Sai Smaran, ---Dr N K Srinivasan -------------------------- Shree Hari Ram Ram All Sadhaks, please include reference to the particular scripture, as it is important for posting to this topic. Gita Talk Moderator Ram Ram ---------------------------- -------------------------- PRIOR POSTING Respected readers, My daNdavats to all in this forum..... So many beautiful thoughts......I had one more piece of information I wished to share, which is that the word " dharma " I have always heard translates as " that which one cannot sepatate from one's very existence " . So, the dharma of sugar is sweetness, the dharma of water is wetness, and the dharma of the soul is service. An intelligent person will ask, " OK, so who or what can I serve eternally? " Then the undeerstandig of Sanatana dharma, meaning more or less, our eternal occupation......service to the Lord. When coming to Gita, and the ancient Vedic tradition, one finds so many wonderful, indepth and personal concepts of what is pleasing to the service of Radha Krsna, and how to act day by day, minute by minute, instructions on how to bath, how to disciplie the mind, how to learn self restraint, peacefulness, etc. etc. This is all preliminary to the goal, a loving relationship with God. reSpectfully, Mahalaksmi Dasi ----------------------------- Namaste It is correct that, the word HINDU is not mentioned in Vedas, etc. According to Persian language, Hindu means, Kafir, chor, etc. The Persians for whatever reasons, they called Indians Hindus and we Indian also started calling us HINDU without knowing the real meaning. In Mumbai underworld, some gangstars are called in different depending upon their way of attacking, as " _____ Yeda " (mad person). Later it has become a part of his name. Likewise, we Indians continued with this bad name. I think this is mentioned in detail in Swamy Dayanand Saraswati's (Founder of Arya Samaj) " Satyartha Prakash " in Hindi and " Light of Truth " in English. He deals with it. H.K. Sudhakara ------------------------- Understanding Hindu Dharma. " Flow on self-purifying (H)indu with expansiveness... " Rig Veda. IX.96.21 Indu/Sindhu/Hindu/Sanatan Dharma/Vedic Dharma/Yoga Dharma--it is all the same. Those who would seek to separate the aforementioned only serve to tear apart. We see the results today of this division. We have those who unethically divorce the various [Hindu] Yogas from Hinduism; those who try and separate Sanantan Dharma and Hinduism. " A house divided... " Swami Param ------------------------------- PRIOR POSTING Namaskar I have gone through the mail " Misunderstanding of Dharma with Hinduism " . It is absolutely right the Hinduism has been misunderstood with dharma. It was started by britishers and has been followed by our politicians. Also, this is also true that no one has ever heard the word " HINDU " or " HINDUTVA " in any of our bhartiya granthas. All other related words like " HINDUTVA " , " HINDUSTAN " , " HINDUSTANI " , " HIND " , " HINDI " are derived from the word " HINDU " . So the question is that from where this word " HINDU " came from? Well, it was started, when Mugals shown their interest in our country " AKHAND BHARAT " (Incl. Present Bharat, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Nepal, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, Bhutan). They (Mugals) used to call " SINDHU " to the people who lives at the eastern side and the banks of River SINDU. But due to language problem they pronounce is as " HINDU " . Therefore according to them (Mugals), all the peoples living in Bharat, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Nepal, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, Bhutan are HINDU. Than how it could be HINDU DHARMA? Dharma is entirely different from HINDU. Hindu means a Sanskriti, the Culture, the Living Style of Bharat. According to our Vedas, Bhagvat Gita the word " Dharma " denotes the certain important Karmas (Must do work or Duties) of a human being like " Mtri Dharma (Duties & Responsibilities towards your Mother) " , " Pitri Dharma (Duties & Responsibilities towards your Father) " , " Desh Dharma (Duties & Responsibilities towards your Mother Land) " etc. Both the words " HINDU " & " DHARMA " have nothing to do with religion or caste. So i request all the readers to spread this fact as much as possible and understand the real meaning of " HINDU " & " DHARMA " Dhanyavad Avadhesh Didwania ----------------------------- My dear Vineet Sarvotam, My respects to all in this forum.....kindly allow me to share what I have heard from others in regard to the word " Hindu " . My opening words are not particularly " authoritative " so please kindly forgive me, but what I have to say will certainly be of interest in your discussion. Firstly, I have heard many times through the years, coming from many sadhaks, is that the word " Hindu " was coined by the British. They were unable to properly pronounce the word " Sindhus " in regard to the community/culture of individuals living on the bank of the Sindhus River, so the word " Hindu " came into the lanuauge. On a trip I made to India in the year 2000, I was on a small plane between one large city and another, and somehow or other, (we know the hand of the Lord is everywhere) the seat next to me was occupied by a sannyasi from Hrshikesh. I was conversing with a business man in a suit next to him, and explaiing this exact same thing, about the word Hindu being no where in the Vedas, and the business man turned to the sannyas (who did not speak English) and asked him about this, then turned to me, and said, " He says you are absolutely correrct. " I was amazed that the business man had no idea, though he was from India. Little by little, I have had to learn the sad truth that many born in India do not know what is Sanatan Dharma, nor the destructive influences of the British....or how to live by the teachings of Gita. I pray that those who do undeerstand this continually seek ways to spread it to others. There is a vrery nice section mentioned in a booklet called Sri Hari Nama Maha Mantra....compiled by Srila B.V. Narayana Maharaj.....there the Srimad Bhagavatam is quoted (1.2.8) " dharmah svanusthitah pumsam, visvaksena-kathasu yah.......notpadayed yadi ratim, shrama eva hi kevalam " ..... " The main purpose of varnasrama- dharma is to simplify the life of a person who is performing his natural occupational duty, so that he has sufficient time to hear hari-katha. However, if an attraction for hari-katha is not inspired, then all the reilgious activities he performs in accordance with varnasrama-dharma will be so much useless labour. " Respectfully, Mahalaksmi Dasi -------------------------------Dear Shri Vineet Sarvottam, All your questions are very relevant to appreciate what Dharma is. Is Sanatna Dharma same as Hindu Dharma. With my limited knowledge I would like to answer your doubts/points as below. Hindu word is not mentioned in many of our scriptures as for a number of centuries it related to residents of Hindustan i.e. areas EAST of Sindhu river (Indus) pronounced in Persian language as Hindu river. Even the word India is from Indus river as pronounced by Greeks. By 15th century A.D Hindu word acquired some religious connotation as in Adi Grantah Sahib Guru Nanak writes Turki Kaane and Hindu Anne i.e. Muslims were half blind and Hindu totally blind to God's Vedic religion. Guru Nanak tried his best to revive Vedas being himself belonging to BEDI family for whom Vedas were the supreme scriptures. Still the word Hindu was not fully accepted as relating to religion. Even today if a Muslim goes to Egypt he is known as HINDI i.e from Hindustan. For the first time in the 19th century when first Census was taken by British Government in India after 1857, All those religions which originated from out side India like Islam, Christianity, Jews etc their followers were counted separately and all religions/sects/cults which originated from India were clubbed as Hindu religion. Thus this practice is even followed today by government of India. When we say Hindus are over 80% it means Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists, Jains, Kabir panthis, Ganpatias, Arya samajists etc. The word Dharma first appeared in Rig Veda where it is mentioned " Rtm, Satyam, Dharmmam " Rta- the cosmic laws of social, moral and physical order are eternal truths (satyam) and following these Rta (laws) is Vedic Dharma. Later when due to certain vested interets some influential and poewerful people found difficult to follow Rta, many interpretation of Dharma started like duty, which binds, way of life etc. Only followers of Vedic metaphysics can appreciate the original meaning of Dharma. Thus Hindu Dharma, Sanatan Dharma (meaning eternal religion of Vedas) would largely mean the same thing. Infact for any individual if Vedas are the supreme scriptures, he/she is a follower of Sanatan Dharma. Since Bhagavad Gita is largely based on Vedic metaphysics, Dharma would mean Sanatan Dharma. Bhagavd Gita clealy says in Chapter 16 that study of Vedas is the supreme virtue. Any interpretation which contardict Vedic interpretation is not valid in Vedic Sanatan Dharma If still some doubts persist I can clarify further with my very limited knowledge. with regards, Prem Sabhlok -------------------------------- Dear Sadak, At one time only Hinduism existed. So it called Hinduism, Hindu Dharma etc. Later on came Jainism, Buddism, Christanity, and Islam to India when people started travelling by ships. Hindu Dharma purely meant Dharma in common to all living and non living things. One can see in many histories that God went to rescue his devote irrespective of caste and creed. Even Muslim Kabir Doss was devote of Panduranga. A slaughter Dharma Vajer in Maha Bharat is praised of his Pitru Bakthi. There are Dharmas concerning, women (Sree Dharma), Purusha (Man), Raja, Sanyasi, Etc. Then there is Prayachita Dharma, Bagavatha dharma, Deva Dharma, Surya Dharma, Pancha Bootha Dharma so on. These Dharmas are there in perfect scripts. All Dharmas are taken care by 33 crore demi gods, like Vayu, Agni, Indra etc. There is one called Yuga Dharma. That is the earth and it` s planets have Chatur yuga. Namely Satya Yuga, Thretha Yuga, Dwapara Yuga and Kali yuga. Longest is Satya Yuga. Shortest is Kali yuga around 14300 years. That is why Bramaji is depicted with 4 heads representing 4 yugas. This is also said in Old testament of Christanity as the world is square. In Geetha Bagavan says everything rest only on Dharma. Dharma means the rightfulness. In Ramayan scores of dharmas are said. Even drinking water by left hand is Adharma. Dharma is clearly said about food. Dharma is said about how man from morning to evening should behave related to environment. PLEASE NOTE ALL THESE DHARMAS ARE FOR NOT ONLY FOR HINDUS, BUT FOR SOCIETY AT LARGE. Bagavan Sri Krishna said that HE will incarnate from time to time, means that HE comes to protect the people who follow all these Dharmas. Such people are called Dharmathumas. HE does not come for people who are not rightious. We can see mass of humans killed for verious reasons. But if ONE dharmathuma is attacked, Bagavan response is immediate. In important scripts it said that in the event of abuses of God, God remains silent. But in the event of very small neglect/discomfort caused to HIS devote, God respondes at once. To give evidence from scripts/upanashid/puranas it is lengthy. Besides Bagavan says these are to be taught to a person who is consistant in seeking truth able to practice basic teachings of Sanathana Dharma. To learn incomplete a small science of human body MBBS one needs 5 years. To learn these Dharmas one needs contiuous effort day in and day out. Jai Sri Krishna baiya sathyanarayan ----------------------------- =============================================================== PRIOR POSTING Gita is for people of all religions. That is why there is no mention of Hindu religion. Indians were called Hindus by invaders because of the Indus river and our faith was given the name. Hinduism is a way of life rather than a religion and there is nothing in the Gita which does not apply to people of other religions. Hari Shanker Deo ------------------------------ " Dhritih kshama damo asteyam shaucham-indriya nigrahah Dhi vidya satyam-akrodho dashakam dharma lakshanam " (Manu Smriti, Ch.VI-92) (1) Dhriti – Patience, (2) Kshama – Forgiveness, (3) Damah – Self Control, (4) Asteya – Not Stealing, (5) Shaucha – Purity, (6) Indriya Nigraha – Sense Control, (7) Dhi – Intellect, (8) Vidya – Learning/Knowledge, (9) Satya – Truth, (10) Akrodha – Absence of Anger. this shows that dharma is secular as there is no reference to personal belief, god, satan heaven , hell, angels etc... Dharma is called Dao in chinese and therefore Daoism is subsciption to this idea. one of the 3 texts of this tradition is 'Tao Te ching' Its opening line is 'the Dao that can be named is not the dao', and this falls in line with our thinking. Compare this to christian islamic judaic views that god has only one name jehova, allah, etc.. patanjali in chapter 3 says chose your favourite deity, this also means that god is relegated to do whatever suits you, its really not that important. therefore hinduism or dharma is not a religion in the judaic club, gang, sense. and traditionally hindus have said that it is not a religion but a 'way of life'. personally i have never d to the way of life buisness because then surely islam is an absolute 'way of life'. however in context of the above this can be understood as something other than belief, faith, etc... sanatana dharma has also been translated as the perennial philosophy by Aldous huxley, see his book of the same name and take a look at his novel, Island. there is only one dharma and all the rest are panths, paths. Ravi Bakhsi ------------------------------ The Word Hinduism was derived from the Indus civilisation. About 2,000 years ago when the Greeks sailed up the Indus River, they were surprised to find a civilisation that existed and they refer to them as the Indus. Later this was changed to Hindus. Mangal Deolal ------------------------------- -------------------------------- GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: 1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify their doubts related to Gitaji shalokas. Therefore, responses which further clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be posted. 2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to substantiate your response. 3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas 4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting sadhaka's time. 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only. 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other organizations. 7. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone number, address etc. 8. Please do not address the response to a particular individual since the message is going to the entire group. 9. Due to the large readership, all responses may not be posted. 10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if content is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the group. 11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use to Sanskrit words only, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit bracketed wherever possible. MODERATOR Ram Ram ------------------------ Post message: Subscribe: - Un: - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 1, 2009 Report Share Posted January 1, 2009 Shree Hari Ram Ram To respected and eminent Gita Talk members, I seek your guidance in attaining responses to the following - 1) In all the Vedas, the Puranas, the Upanishads, in Bhagavad Gita, in Ramayana, and in Ramcharitramanas, in which places is there any mention of Hindu, Hinduism, Hindu Dharma, or Hindu Sampradaaya (sect). Is there anything written about them? I am seeking in these scriptures actual and existing proof or evidence. 2) In those scriptures, where there is specific mention of Dharma and related matters, in that very scripture, the meaning of the word Dharma, please provide from the main scripture the specific quotation/extract, not someone's commentaries or lectures or exposition. Is that Dharma understood as being " Hindu mat " (hindu philosophy) or " Hindu Dharma " ? If this has been written, in which chapter is it? What are the supporting documents / background, please kindly share. 3) That which is authoritatively called Bharatiya Sanatana Dharma, that versus the Dharma in Gitaji that for which Shri Krishna Bhagwaan agreed to descend (incarnate) time and again for the establishment of Dharma, in that the so-called one-ness that is revealed, regarding that I seek the scriptural evidence (uskaa shastriya pramaan chahiye). If preceding the Shri Krishna-lila, this Sanatana Dharma was existing, then was Bhagwaan's words/knowledge (shabda-gyaan) incomplete that instead of saying Sanatana Dharma, simple said Dharma? 4) If Gita Talk instead of being for all of mankind, is simply only for participants from the Hindu sect/doctrine, then please share and make available the related principles / rules / practices. If in the language there appears to be some impatience, than please forgive me, and kindly grace me with your continued generosity. Vineet Sarvottam ------------------------------ NEW POSTING -Shree Hari- I have withheld any comment on this thread, and have become a student. Aren't we all students some of the time? I now understand that 'Hindu' is a result of history and linguistics, I found this aspect of the thread informative, interesting. Vineet Sarvottam, with respect I have pasted in a part of one of your comments: '.... Islam, Buddhist, and Christianity, have been made known by great souls, whereas " Dharma " (not Hindu dharma, not Sanatana Dharma) is without a beginning (anaad....' I maybe might have something to offer, that is easily overlooked, that is the 'Mystic'. She/He can evolve from any platform religious or otherwise, but goes beyond the surface beyond ritual and dogma, seeking and experiencing the 'Divine' seeking to know 'Higher Self', i.e. beyond religion. So Gitaji is the most natural book of the 'Cosmos' there is for such souls. To clarify my point see paste below: 'Henry David Thoreau: In the morning I bathe my intellect in the stupendous and cosmogonal philosophy of the Bhagavad-gita, in comparison with which our modern world and its literature seem puny and trivial.' You do realize that this is in agreement with your quote, Vineetji? This is the start: Chapter:9 Even those who with faith worship Other gods, also worship Me, Though with a mistaken approach, This is the truth, Son of Kunti. (23) Truly I am the Enjoyer, And Lord of all sacrifices; But because they do not know Me They return, subject to rebirth. (24) Then the Mystic emerges: Chapter:9 With mind fixed on Me, devoted, worshiping, bowing down to Me, Thus made steadfast, with Me as your Supreme aim you shall come to Me. (34) The Dharma that has been spoken of is the underpinning of all faiths, and reveals itself to those who with all their hearts look beyond the clouds of dogma. With Respect and Divine Love, Mike Keenor ------------------------------ ------------------------------ PRIOR POSTING Shree Hari Ram Ram Madan Bhaiyyaa, in Gitaji's Chapter 11, Shloka 18 Arjuna says to Bhagwaan the word " Shaasvatdharmagoptaa " (protector of eternal Dharma, protector of righteousness) not " Sanatanadharmagoptaa " (protector of one who accepts Sanatana Dharma) nor " Hindudharmagoptaa " (protector of Hindu Dharma) and for Bhagwaan Himself he calls Him " Sanatana Puruso " (Existing from time immemorial, Eternal Imperishable Being) not " Shaasvat Purush " (Immortal Being), nor " Hindu Purush " (Of Hindu Origin). He " Sanatana " (Eternal) who is beyond (past, present and future), who is Truth. That " Shaasvatdharma " whose protection Arjuna was able to speak of to Bhagavaan, that alone in Kaliyug is being called Sanatana Dharma and will now be called out as Hindu Dharma, such has not been declared in the entire Mahabharat holy book. In Sadhak Sanjivani (Hindi) page 924 in the lower half of the page, Swamiji Himself has said – " Hindu dharma is " anaadi " (without a beginning), " anant " (infinite) and " Shaasvat " (eternal). This has been written so because the remaining three religions and sacred legends most spoken off, - Islam, Buddhist, and Christianity, have been made known by great souls, whereas " Dharma " (not Hindu dharma, not Sanatana Dharma) is without a beginning (anaadi), infinite (anant) , eternal (shaashvat) and sanatana (existing from time immemorial). With this Dharma, no Hindu, no Muslim, no Buddhist, no Sikh, no Christian, no Jain, no Judaic, no other word, in the form of preposition (upasarg) is essential. (and Bhagwaan Himself has said that on the destruction of righteousness - Dharma, He has talked about His manisfestation. He has not talked of some " Sanatana Dharma " or some " Hindu dharma " or some " Shaashvat dharma " . Just as there cannot be two Paramatmas (Supreme Consciousness), in the same manner, Eternal is only One and that is Paramatma (whatever Name we may chose to call that One). If Paramatma is Eternal and without a beginning, and Hindu Dharma is " Eternal " then in these two, which came first and which came later? Neither came first, nor any came after. Both are together names of that One and only Reality (Truth). Whether some one out of their delusion, calls this Dharma – Hindu / Sanatana by joining a group or organization believes and presupposes it to be it's own group's great treasures, then with regards to this matter, what can Dharma do? In the same manner, if Gitaji is considered to be the scriptures/doctrines of a particular sect/group, then I would object and oppose this group. If Gita has been relayed for a particular group/sect, then was Bhagwaan not capable of saying so that the Path of Yoga shared in the Gita is for Hindus? Oh! I forgot that Bhagavaan has in no place (Gitaji or otherwise) used the word Hindu at all. Therefore it is best if this discussion is put together, as Gita-Talk members deserving of honor, do not wish to see Gitaji shared with all of mankind. So be it! Sarvottam. ------------------------ Dear Madanlalji Kaura I AM ENJOYING AND APPRECIATIVE O DISCOURSE WHICH HAS BEEN GOING ON IN THIS THANKS A COMMENT HERE IS WHAT YOU QUOTED IN THIS TRAILING EMAILS BG (4-7 and 4-8) Whenever there is a decline in righteousness and an upsurge in righteousness, IS THIS AN UPSURGE UNRIGHTEOUSNESS OR RIGHTEOUSNESS AS YOU QUOTED LOOKS TO ME IT SHOULD BE UPSURGE IN UNRIGHTEOUESNESS BUT MAY BE I AM WRONG MAY BE YOU CAN CLARIFY AS BHAGWAN KRISHNA COMES ON THE EARTH BECAUSE O UNRIGHTEOUSNESS ANY HOW THANKS O Arjuna, I then manifest Myself. For the protection of the virtuous, for the destruction of the wicked and for establishing righteousness, I manifest myself from age to age Dinesh Patel ------------------------------ Faith is only answer for all Unknown from " lrresources " ----------------------------- Shree Hari With all respect to any Dharma.Let me share from where did the word Hindu derived.In An Ancient India the geographical area was vast extended.The Sind river was in India.The people from Sind was actually traders and preachers who migrated everywhere.Sind was later on started pronounced as Hind, subsequently Hindu. Now I fail to Understand why there is so much hue and cry as a religion.It is not religion but actually it the people staying were called as Hindu. Let me be clear example:people from Mahad called as Mahadkar,from Chembur as Chemburkar ect. Let us be one as Hindu in this auspicious Land and be called as Hindustani rather then dividing ourselves. Thanks to all such person who say so for their own benifits and cheap publicity in the eyes of innocent people and further misguiding. Dharma according to me and as I understood means our Kartavya (duty) towards our Nation, Mother Earth. Thanks, God Bless You Bhawar Shah -------------------------------- PRIOR POSTING Shree Hari || Ram Ram || Dear Vineetji Pls. forgive me, was not able to make it very clear, here is another attempt - as per the previous note, pls. note that the word 'Hindu' is not mentioned in any of our scriptures but there is a definite mention of " Sanatana Dharma " ' in Gitaji in the following verses: BG (11-18), Arjuna says - " tvamaksaram paramam veditavam, tvamasya visvasya param nidhanam tvamavayayah sassasvatadharmagopta, sanatanastvam puruso mato me " You are, I recognize, the Imperishable, the Supreme Being (Aksara) to be realized; You are the ultimate refuge of this universe; the protector of Eternal (Sanatana) Dharma and you are the eternally imperishable Being. 'Tvam sasvatadharmagopta' - Arjuna says, that when there is, decline of righteousness and rise of unrighteousness, the Lord by taking an incarnation, destroys the evil and protects " Sanatana Dharma " , the Dharma that has existed since the time immemorial and shall exist forever. (Ref: Sadhak-Sanjivani, pg.1251 in English and pg. 690 in Hindi). BG (14-27): Lord Krishna says - " brahmano hi pratishahamamtrsyavyavasya ca sasvatasya ca dharmasya sukhasyaikantikasya ca " For, I am the abode of Brahma, the immortal and the Imperishable, of Santana (Eternal) Dharma (Law of righteousness) and of absolute bliss. " Sasvatasya ca dharmasya " Lord Krishna, is the abode of eternal (Sanatana) Dharma and eternal (Sanatana) Dharma, is the abode of the Lord. It means that the Lord and eternal (Sanatana) Dharma, are one and the same.* * There are four important Dharmas (Religions) in the world. They are Hindu (Sanatana or Eternal), Buddhism, Christian and Muslim. The founders of these are Buddha, Christian and Mohammada respectively. But the Sanatana Dharma was not originated by anyone, it is eternal and beginning-less like the Lord. This is discovery made by sages from India. What is discovered, has its own pre-existence. The methods of God-realization described in other Dhramas are also the gift of " Sanatana Dharma " . Whenever there is a decline of this Dharma, the Lord incarnates Himself for the establishment of Dharma (Gitaji 4/7-8). So the Lord re-establishes it, He does not find it (just like when something is lost we find it). Actually all other religions are the product of Sanatana Dharma only. So if their principles are obeyed without any desire for their fruit, they will lead to salvation undoubtedly. A deep thought for salvation as is described in Sanatana Dharma is not available in other religions. The principles of Sanatana Dharma (which in time came to be known as Hinduism) are totally scientific and they lead to salvation. (Ref: Sadhak-Sanjivani, pg. 1577 in English and pg. 855 in Hindi). Ram Ram Humble pranams Madan Kaura ------------------------------ RAM RAM, here are the dictionary meanings of Dharma: 'Dharma' may be defined as the eternal law or the sum of many good qualities governing, upholding, and supporting creation and the world order. for example helping each other keeps the world running (Gitaji 3.10-11) It is the eternal relationship between the creator and His creatures. It also means way of life, doctrine, principle, prescribed duty, righteousness, right action, integrity, ideal conduct, custom, virtue, nature, essential quality, commandments, moral principles, spiritual truth, spirituality, spiritual values, and a function within the scriptural injunction or religion. = hariom roy ------------------------------ Shree Hari Ram Ram Bhaiyyaa Madan, Your reading and study is good. Now, I have not been able to study these scriptures at all. From your message from the Gita verses Gita 4:7, 8, 11-18, no where did I find the word Hindu or Sanatana Dharma. Eternal Dharma, is in itself to be understood as Sanatana Dharma, that was not to be found in Gitaji. I want to undertand the root, the essence of these compositions/works (kruti). Vineet Sarvottam -------------------------------- Shree Hari || Ram Ram || Dear Vineetji Thank you very much for such scholarly and loaded questions, I do not consider myself qualified to answer the questions adequately but here is an humble attempt: QUESTION 1: After consulting with the scholars in the Detroit area, I learnt to confirm my own idea that the words " Hindu " , " Hinduism " , " Hindu Dharma " are not found in Vedas, Upnishads, Brahma Sutras, Ramayana, Ramcharitmanas or Puranas. Also, there is no mention of " Hindu " in 3000 stotras composed by Adi Shankracharya and many more by numerous other sages. Though there is an extensive mention of gods in our scriptures, for example in the Bhagavad Gita, many of these gods are mentioned in Chapter 10 and 11. At some point in time in recent history, these gods have come to be known as Hindu gods. According to one theory, how the Sanatana Dharma got the name of Hinduism, it is believed that as Persians came towards India they called the people living on the east side of river Indus (Sindhu in Sanskrit) as " Hindus " because they pronounce " S " as " H " , so from `Sindhu' it became `Hindu'. During the Mohammedan rule we took up the word ourselves. But the word " Hindu " lost its significance since all people who live on this side of the Indus river in modern times do not follow the same religion as they did in ancient times, there are proper Hindus, Mohammedans, Christians, Jains etc. who also live in India. QUESTION 2: The meaning of Dharma is given as which holds and sustains (It is said in Mahabharat – " when one follows Dharma, it protects " ). Dharma is broadly classified into two ways - Sanatana (Eternal) Dharma and Swadharma (Individual duty) Meaning of Sanatana: - That which is an eternal – ever was, is and ever will be - That which is not subject to change - Universal – fundamental truths in it exist at all times and all places Meaning of Dharma: - That which holds and sustains ( " When one follows Dharma it protects " - Mahabharat) - The levels of Dharma are specified at different levels: Swadharma (Individual duty) - .. Personal Dharma (As it pertains to personal cleaniness and good conduct etc.) .. Family Dharma (Duty towards other family relationships) .. Society Dharma (Duty towards social setting, village, city or town) .. National Dharma (Duty towards one's nation) The Swadharma or individual duty varies with time, place, conditions or circumstances. For Swadharma Dharma, refer to Gitaji verses - 2/ 31-37, 3/35 and 18- 47. Sanatana Dharma never changes it is: - That which is an eternal order, governing the laws for the smooth functioning of this universe - That which is the inherent nature of things (Ex: Sun giving light, Basic virtues - Truth, Non-voilence, Compassion, Charity ...) - That which encompasses all the Spiritual Laws - That which contains the spiritual laws are eternal and are a means of God realization - That which is the source of the spiritual laws For Sanatana Dharma refer to Gitaji verses 4-7, 4-8 and 11-18 QUESTION 3. Whenever Dharma is mentioned in Gitaji, it is meant to be in a broader sense as Sanatana Dharma only. When Dharma applies to individual duties then the word `Swadharma' is used. This fact is brought up in several places in Gitaji: BG (4-1 and 4-2) In the context of Karma Yoga, Lord Krishna says, I taught this imperishable Yoga to Vivasvan (Sun God), Vivasvan told it to Manu and Manu spoke it to Iksvaku. Thus handed down from father to son, the Royal sages knew it till that Yoga was lost to the world through long lapse of Time, O' Paramtapa (Arjuna). BG (4-7 and 4-8) Whenever there is a decline in righteousness and an upsurge in righteousness, O Arjuna, I then manifest Myself. For the protection of the virtuous, for the destruction of the wicked and for establishing righteousness, I manifest myself from age to age. BG (11-18) Thou art the Imperishable, the Supreme to be realized. Thou art the Ultimate Resort of the Universe; Thou art the protector of the Dharma; Thou art the imperishable eternal Prime Person, I consider. QUESTION 4. All secular and spiritual knowledge is based on Vedas, all authoritative scriptures are derived from Vedas only. These scriptures address to the human being in general, therefore the Sanatana Dharma applies to all races, creeds and cultures, and not just to Hindus. Humble regards, Madan Kaura ----------------------------- Pranaams to members Dear Vineet, please see this - (1) Hindusthan 'HIMAALAYAAM SAMAARAMBHYA YAAVAT HINDU SAROVARAM TAM DEVA NIRMITAM DESAM HINDUSTHANAM PRACHAKSHATHE' (2) Hindu 'SINDHU PARYANTHAAM YASYAA BHAARATHA BHOOMIKA, MATHRUBHU : , PITHRUBHUSCHAIVA, SA VAI, HINDU ITHI SMRUTHA' I am not able to locate the authority for this. Pranaams Vijayan ------------------------------ PRIOR POSTING Dear All, MEANING OF THE WORD " HINDU " I recently joined this group and found that there are interesting brain storming sessions going on. Can someone please help me understand exact roots of word 'Hindu' ? I could find roots for 'Vedic' but not 'Hindu' anywhere in Bhagwad Gita. If someone please shed some light, it will be great help to our research group. Regards, -Nisarg Joshi Serial Vedic Learner ----------------------------- Dear Shri Vineetji, I read your mail with interest.Put briefly, Lord Krishna in the Gita [or whoever compiled it from earlier version]went beyond the basic tenets of vedas/vedanta/Upanishads.To say that Gitacharya merely summarised what was in the Upanishads is not correct. In this respect,the word Dharma used by the Lord means Sanatana Dharma (Eternal Law, Eternal Principles) and has wide meaning. Lord Krishna did not speak for Hindus only. Infact He says that whatever God/gods you may worship, it ends up in Me---that is Universal Spirit. There is no use in discussing these things from purely historical or theological perspective. Various sampradayas or traditions/sects came right from the time of Kashmir Saivism or even earlier. The worship of Vishnu brought in Puranas with emphasis on Srimad Bhagavatam...then many sects came into being. Further there is no Hindu Dharma, Christian Dharma or Islam Dharma or Jewish Dharma. As I understand, there is only one Dharma, but if you take Dharma to mean a religion or traditions, there are many. Dharma means only 'righteousness' and not 'rites.' The word Hindu or Hindu faith or religion came much later, not in Vedic/Upanishadic times...period. In Shirdi Sai Smaran, ---Dr N K Srinivasan -------------------------- Shree Hari Ram Ram All Sadhaks, please include reference to the particular scripture, as it is important for posting to this topic. Gita Talk Moderator Ram Ram ---------------------------- -------------------------- PRIOR POSTING Respected readers, My daNdavats to all in this forum..... So many beautiful thoughts......I had one more piece of information I wished to share, which is that the word " dharma " I have always heard translates as " that which one cannot sepatate from one's very existence " . So, the dharma of sugar is sweetness, the dharma of water is wetness, and the dharma of the soul is service. An intelligent person will ask, " OK, so who or what can I serve eternally? " Then the undeerstandig of Sanatana dharma, meaning more or less, our eternal occupation......service to the Lord. When coming to Gita, and the ancient Vedic tradition, one finds so many wonderful, indepth and personal concepts of what is pleasing to the service of Radha Krsna, and how to act day by day, minute by minute, instructions on how to bath, how to disciplie the mind, how to learn self restraint, peacefulness, etc. etc. This is all preliminary to the goal, a loving relationship with God. reSpectfully, Mahalaksmi Dasi ----------------------------- Namaste It is correct that, the word HINDU is not mentioned in Vedas, etc. According to Persian language, Hindu means, Kafir, chor, etc. The Persians for whatever reasons, they called Indians Hindus and we Indian also started calling us HINDU without knowing the real meaning. In Mumbai underworld, some gangstars are called in different depending upon their way of attacking, as " _____ Yeda " (mad person). Later it has become a part of his name. Likewise, we Indians continued with this bad name. I think this is mentioned in detail in Swamy Dayanand Saraswati's (Founder of Arya Samaj) " Satyartha Prakash " in Hindi and " Light of Truth " in English. He deals with it. H.K. Sudhakara ------------------------- Understanding Hindu Dharma. " Flow on self-purifying (H)indu with expansiveness... " Rig Veda. IX.96.21 Indu/Sindhu/Hindu/Sanatan Dharma/Vedic Dharma/Yoga Dharma--it is all the same. Those who would seek to separate the aforementioned only serve to tear apart. We see the results today of this division. We have those who unethically divorce the various [Hindu] Yogas from Hinduism; those who try and separate Sanantan Dharma and Hinduism. " A house divided... " Swami Param ------------------------------- PRIOR POSTING Namaskar I have gone through the mail " Misunderstanding of Dharma with Hinduism " . It is absolutely right the Hinduism has been misunderstood with dharma. It was started by britishers and has been followed by our politicians. Also, this is also true that no one has ever heard the word " HINDU " or " HINDUTVA " in any of our bhartiya granthas. All other related words like " HINDUTVA " , " HINDUSTAN " , " HINDUSTANI " , " HIND " , " HINDI " are derived from the word " HINDU " . So the question is that from where this word " HINDU " came from? Well, it was started, when Mugals shown their interest in our country " AKHAND BHARAT " (Incl. Present Bharat, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Nepal, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, Bhutan). They (Mugals) used to call " SINDHU " to the people who lives at the eastern side and the banks of River SINDU. But due to language problem they pronounce is as " HINDU " . Therefore according to them (Mugals), all the peoples living in Bharat, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Nepal, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, Bhutan are HINDU. Than how it could be HINDU DHARMA? Dharma is entirely different from HINDU. Hindu means a Sanskriti, the Culture, the Living Style of Bharat. According to our Vedas, Bhagvat Gita the word " Dharma " denotes the certain important Karmas (Must do work or Duties) of a human being like " Mtri Dharma (Duties & Responsibilities towards your Mother) " , " Pitri Dharma (Duties & Responsibilities towards your Father) " , " Desh Dharma (Duties & Responsibilities towards your Mother Land) " etc. Both the words " HINDU " & " DHARMA " have nothing to do with religion or caste. So i request all the readers to spread this fact as much as possible and understand the real meaning of " HINDU " & " DHARMA " Dhanyavad Avadhesh Didwania ----------------------------- My dear Vineet Sarvotam, My respects to all in this forum.....kindly allow me to share what I have heard from others in regard to the word " Hindu " . My opening words are not particularly " authoritative " so please kindly forgive me, but what I have to say will certainly be of interest in your discussion. Firstly, I have heard many times through the years, coming from many sadhaks, is that the word " Hindu " was coined by the British. They were unable to properly pronounce the word " Sindhus " in regard to the community/culture of individuals living on the bank of the Sindhus River, so the word " Hindu " came into the lanuauge. On a trip I made to India in the year 2000, I was on a small plane between one large city and another, and somehow or other, (we know the hand of the Lord is everywhere) the seat next to me was occupied by a sannyasi from Hrshikesh. I was conversing with a business man in a suit next to him, and explaiing this exact same thing, about the word Hindu being no where in the Vedas, and the business man turned to the sannyas (who did not speak English) and asked him about this, then turned to me, and said, " He says you are absolutely correrct. " I was amazed that the business man had no idea, though he was from India. Little by little, I have had to learn the sad truth that many born in India do not know what is Sanatan Dharma, nor the destructive influences of the British....or how to live by the teachings of Gita. I pray that those who do undeerstand this continually seek ways to spread it to others. There is a vrery nice section mentioned in a booklet called Sri Hari Nama Maha Mantra....compiled by Srila B.V. Narayana Maharaj.....there the Srimad Bhagavatam is quoted (1.2.8) " dharmah svanusthitah pumsam, visvaksena-kathasu yah.......notpadayed yadi ratim, shrama eva hi kevalam " ..... " The main purpose of varnasrama- dharma is to simplify the life of a person who is performing his natural occupational duty, so that he has sufficient time to hear hari-katha. However, if an attraction for hari-katha is not inspired, then all the reilgious activities he performs in accordance with varnasrama-dharma will be so much useless labour. " Respectfully, Mahalaksmi Dasi -------------------------------Dear Shri Vineet Sarvottam, All your questions are very relevant to appreciate what Dharma is. Is Sanatna Dharma same as Hindu Dharma. With my limited knowledge I would like to answer your doubts/points as below. Hindu word is not mentioned in many of our scriptures as for a number of centuries it related to residents of Hindustan i.e. areas EAST of Sindhu river (Indus) pronounced in Persian language as Hindu river. Even the word India is from Indus river as pronounced by Greeks. By 15th century A.D Hindu word acquired some religious connotation as in Adi Grantah Sahib Guru Nanak writes Turki Kaane and Hindu Anne i.e. Muslims were half blind and Hindu totally blind to God's Vedic religion. Guru Nanak tried his best to revive Vedas being himself belonging to BEDI family for whom Vedas were the supreme scriptures. Still the word Hindu was not fully accepted as relating to religion. Even today if a Muslim goes to Egypt he is known as HINDI i.e from Hindustan. For the first time in the 19th century when first Census was taken by British Government in India after 1857, All those religions which originated from out side India like Islam, Christianity, Jews etc their followers were counted separately and all religions/sects/cults which originated from India were clubbed as Hindu religion. Thus this practice is even followed today by government of India. When we say Hindus are over 80% it means Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists, Jains, Kabir panthis, Ganpatias, Arya samajists etc. The word Dharma first appeared in Rig Veda where it is mentioned " Rtm, Satyam, Dharmmam " Rta- the cosmic laws of social, moral and physical order are eternal truths (satyam) and following these Rta (laws) is Vedic Dharma. Later when due to certain vested interets some influential and poewerful people found difficult to follow Rta, many interpretation of Dharma started like duty, which binds, way of life etc. Only followers of Vedic metaphysics can appreciate the original meaning of Dharma. Thus Hindu Dharma, Sanatan Dharma (meaning eternal religion of Vedas) would largely mean the same thing. Infact for any individual if Vedas are the supreme scriptures, he/she is a follower of Sanatan Dharma. Since Bhagavad Gita is largely based on Vedic metaphysics, Dharma would mean Sanatan Dharma. Bhagavd Gita clealy says in Chapter 16 that study of Vedas is the supreme virtue. Any interpretation which contardict Vedic interpretation is not valid in Vedic Sanatan Dharma If still some doubts persist I can clarify further with my very limited knowledge. with regards, Prem Sabhlok -------------------------------- Dear Sadak, At one time only Hinduism existed. So it called Hinduism, Hindu Dharma etc. Later on came Jainism, Buddism, Christanity, and Islam to India when people started travelling by ships. Hindu Dharma purely meant Dharma in common to all living and non living things. One can see in many histories that God went to rescue his devote irrespective of caste and creed. Even Muslim Kabir Doss was devote of Panduranga. A slaughter Dharma Vajer in Maha Bharat is praised of his Pitru Bakthi. There are Dharmas concerning, women (Sree Dharma), Purusha (Man), Raja, Sanyasi, Etc. Then there is Prayachita Dharma, Bagavatha dharma, Deva Dharma, Surya Dharma, Pancha Bootha Dharma so on. These Dharmas are there in perfect scripts. All Dharmas are taken care by 33 crore demi gods, like Vayu, Agni, Indra etc. There is one called Yuga Dharma. That is the earth and it` s planets have Chatur yuga. Namely Satya Yuga, Thretha Yuga, Dwapara Yuga and Kali yuga. Longest is Satya Yuga. Shortest is Kali yuga around 14300 years. That is why Bramaji is depicted with 4 heads representing 4 yugas. This is also said in Old testament of Christanity as the world is square. In Geetha Bagavan says everything rest only on Dharma. Dharma means the rightfulness. In Ramayan scores of dharmas are said. Even drinking water by left hand is Adharma. Dharma is clearly said about food. Dharma is said about how man from morning to evening should behave related to environment. PLEASE NOTE ALL THESE DHARMAS ARE FOR NOT ONLY FOR HINDUS, BUT FOR SOCIETY AT LARGE. Bagavan Sri Krishna said that HE will incarnate from time to time, means that HE comes to protect the people who follow all these Dharmas. Such people are called Dharmathumas. HE does not come for people who are not rightious. We can see mass of humans killed for verious reasons. But if ONE dharmathuma is attacked, Bagavan response is immediate. In important scripts it said that in the event of abuses of God, God remains silent. But in the event of very small neglect/discomfort caused to HIS devote, God respondes at once. To give evidence from scripts/upanashid/puranas it is lengthy. Besides Bagavan says these are to be taught to a person who is consistant in seeking truth able to practice basic teachings of Sanathana Dharma. To learn incomplete a small science of human body MBBS one needs 5 years. To learn these Dharmas one needs contiuous effort day in and day out. Jai Sri Krishna baiya sathyanarayan ----------------------------- =============================================================== PRIOR POSTING Gita is for people of all religions. That is why there is no mention of Hindu religion. Indians were called Hindus by invaders because of the Indus river and our faith was given the name. Hinduism is a way of life rather than a religion and there is nothing in the Gita which does not apply to people of other religions. Hari Shanker Deo ------------------------------ " Dhritih kshama damo asteyam shaucham-indriya nigrahah Dhi vidya satyam-akrodho dashakam dharma lakshanam " (Manu Smriti, Ch.VI-92) (1) Dhriti – Patience, (2) Kshama – Forgiveness, (3) Damah – Self Control, (4) Asteya – Not Stealing, (5) Shaucha – Purity, (6) Indriya Nigraha – Sense Control, (7) Dhi – Intellect, (8) Vidya – Learning/Knowledge, (9) Satya – Truth, (10) Akrodha – Absence of Anger. this shows that dharma is secular as there is no reference to personal belief, god, satan heaven , hell, angels etc... Dharma is called Dao in chinese and therefore Daoism is subsciption to this idea. one of the 3 texts of this tradition is 'Tao Te ching' Its opening line is 'the Dao that can be named is not the dao', and this falls in line with our thinking. Compare this to christian islamic judaic views that god has only one name jehova, allah, etc.. patanjali in chapter 3 says chose your favourite deity, this also means that god is relegated to do whatever suits you, its really not that important. therefore hinduism or dharma is not a religion in the judaic club, gang, sense. and traditionally hindus have said that it is not a religion but a 'way of life'. personally i have never d to the way of life buisness because then surely islam is an absolute 'way of life'. however in context of the above this can be understood as something other than belief, faith, etc... sanatana dharma has also been translated as the perennial philosophy by Aldous huxley, see his book of the same name and take a look at his novel, Island. there is only one dharma and all the rest are panths, paths. Ravi Bakhsi ------------------------------ The Word Hinduism was derived from the Indus civilisation. About 2,000 years ago when the Greeks sailed up the Indus River, they were surprised to find a civilisation that existed and they refer to them as the Indus. Later this was changed to Hindus. Mangal Deolal ------------------------------- -------------------------------- GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES: 1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify their doubts related to Gitaji shalokas. Therefore, responses which further clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be posted. 2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to substantiate your response. 3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas 4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting sadhaka's time. 5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only. 6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other organizations. 7. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone number, address etc. 8. Please do not address the response to a particular individual since the message is going to the entire group. 9. Due to the large readership, all responses may not be posted. 10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if content is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the group. 11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth, westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use to Sanskrit words only, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit bracketed wherever possible. MODERATOR Ram Ram ------------------------ Post message: Subscribe: - Un: - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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