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My question is that how to prove that there exists a super natural

power called " God " ? At least how to explain that. How to correlate

His existence with the character of the world? Children now a days

need more than belief to accept. Can there be any way vide which we

can establish that God exists. If some body says say :

1. Where is God I have never seen Him?

2. Who has seen Him?

3. How is He?

4. If I dont know how do I accept?

5. God is a term coined by elders to put moral shackles over us so

that we may indulge in goodness.

6. There has to be some basis for his existence? What are the logics

which point towards the existence of God? From where to pick the

thread?

 

Sarphod Tabalchi

 

 

GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES:

1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify their doubts

related to Gitaji shlokas. Therefore, responses which further

clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be posted.

2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to

substantiate your response.

3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the

extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas

4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting

sadhaka's time.

5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only.

6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other

organizations.

7. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone

number, address etc.

8. Please do not address the response to a particular individual

since the message is going to the entire group.

9. Due to the large readership, all responses may not be posted.

10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if content

is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the group.

11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth,

westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use to Sanskrit

words only, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit bracketed

wherever possible.

 

MODERATOR

Ram Ram

------------------------

 

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Posted
Posted

My question is that how to prove that there exists a super natural

power called " God " ? At least how to explain that. How to correlate

His existence with the character of the world? Children now a days

need more than belief to accept. Can there be any way vide which we

can establish that God exists. If some body says say :

1. Where is God I have never seen Him?

2. Who has seen Him?

3. How is He?

4. If I dont know how do I accept?

5. God is a term coined by elders to put moral shackles over us so

that we may indulge in goodness.

6. There has to be some basis for his existence? What are the logics

which point towards the existence of God? From where to pick the

thread?

 

Sarphod Tabalchi

 

 

NEW POSTING

 

Re: Does God (Paramatma) Exist? Where is the Proof? What is the

logic ?

 

Through that supreme devotion he comes to know Me in reality, what and how great

I am; and thereby knowing Me in essence he forthwith enters into My being

 

Gita - Chapter 18 Sloka : 55

 

Sundara Raghavendran

---------------------------

 

Deaar Sadhakas, Namaste!

When someone says " where is God? I have never seen Him " , that person

has to know what God is that he expect to see, otherwise he cannot

ask the question. The question comes from the implicit assumption

that God is some imagination, ideas, knowledge, belief, etc. in the

mind and what I see out there is definitely not " God " .

So it is better to rephrase the question back to What God is first.

When that is understood, all questions by Tabalchiji will get

answered.

Consider the following dialogue:

Q: Do you have a doubt about your own existence?

A: No, I know I exist beyond a shadow of doubt. It is so obvious to

me!

Q: How do you know you exist?

A: I don't know HOW, but I am sure I DO!

Q: Do you need any help of another person, scripture, or some

logical explanation to confirm you do exist?

A: Definitely not, even if they say I don't exist, I know I do,

because it is experiential within me now. I don't even need any

sense organs-mind-intellect to tell me I exist!

 

So, it is self-evident existence, of " beingness " we all feel within

us, and by which we know what is knowable in this world as objects

of knowledge. This experience of Being Conscious is always with us,

never are we away from IT, not even in our sleep when body-mind-

world are all gone no one knows where! But I am always!

I just have to find out that ultimately this " I " is Impersonal and

is of the nature of Existence-Consciousness which we call God!

Personal God of Bhakta appears in this Impersonal!

Based on this, I can conclude that God is not a particular object

among many objects we know through sense organs, mind and intellect.

It is THE UNIQUE and objectless EXPERIENCE!

It is like our eyes who cannot see themselves and yet know their

existence beyond any shadow of doubt because SEEING takes place

automatically by just Being.

Once it is grasped, it can lead to God Realization!

Namaskar...

 

Pratap Bhatt

 

-------------------------------

 

My dear Sarphod,

There is a very beautiful story from ancient times that I have

heard from my guru. Once, a king called his minister and said, " I

want you to answer two questions.....otherwise your position will be

at stake.....first, can you show me God. Secondly, what is God

doing right now?

The minister was in anxiety. He went home, began searching

through various scriptures....wondering if he would have a job the

next day. His small son approached him, and noticing his father's

perplexity, inquired, " What troubles you, father? " The father

responded, " Oh, this is not something you would understand. " At

the child's persistence, the father finally explained. The small

child smiled, and simply said, " Father, that is so easy to

answer.....just tell the king that even a small child can answer

these inquiries, and I will then give him my responses " .

The father had no choice, as he didn't know the way to

respond. So, when the child came before the king, he requested the

king, " First, please have a pot of milk brought forth. " The king did

so. Then the child inquired, " Is there ghee in this milk? " The

king said, " Yes, it is there. " Then the child explained, " It is

there, but you cannot see it. Why can you not see the ghee? " The

king said, " There is a process by which the ghee will be brought

forth, of course, first one must churn the milk into butter, then

the butter is slowly heated until the ghee rises to the

surface......only after one patiently follows this process will he

see the ghee. " As the king was speaking, slowly realization came

into his heart, that similarly, one cannot demand to see God at this

moment....there is a process. One who's heart is not pure, who

does not have love and devotion, cannot see the Lord, but He will

certainly reveal Himself to those who are willing to accept the

process of " bringing forth the ghee " .

The child then said, " You are asking me what God is doing.

That is putting me in the postion of teacher, and you as disciple.

So, is it appropriate for you to be sitting on your throne, if you

are learning from me? " The wise King immediately pleced the child

on the throne, and sat in front of him, ready to try to understand

his next lesson. " This is what God is doing " ....he said. " He is

taking someone from a low position and putting him into a high

position, according to the results of his work, and taking someone

else from a high position and putting him into a low position. "

The king was very pleased with the child's answers, and rewarded him

and his father.

So, one may say, " I don't accept such simplistic

responses " .....well, then, such a person will never see the Lord,

unless and until he is fortunate enough to get the association of a

sadhu, by whose association one's heart melts. When one truly

comes into contact and develops some sukrti by contact with a God

consscious person, there is no material, anaytical way to explain

what happens. It is beyond our mundane intelligence, our ability to

analyze. So, simply pray for the youth you are hoping to guide,

and gradually perhaps the mercy of the sadhus will come to them.

It is not a mechanical process.

I hope my words have been gentle, encouraging, and helpful.....it

is truly a sadness which we all share as parents if our children

become somewhat agnostic or doubtful of the underestanding of the

Lord's presence, and the need for ancient, eternal tradition. We

can only pray to be the best examples of loving, patient friends for

them that we can possibly be.

 

respectfully,

Mahalaksmi Dasi

 

-------------------------------

Sarphod,

 

Read Paramahansa Yogananda's book " the Autoibgraphy of a Yogi "

published by Self Realization Fellowship, Los Angeles, CA.

 

Haley H. Haynes

--------------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

In this posting I would like to build on my previous post.

We as parents must deeply understand the truth of who we are, what

is the nature of world and God first. Then only we can explain to

our children. I would shy away to tell children that because it is

said in our scriptures, you have to believe in God being such and

such.

 

We can begin on the path of knowledge with the premise. That which

always IS irrespective of time, location or cause, is Truth. Truth,

thus, cannot be denied and has to be our continuous experience

always, not some states we experience that come and go, rather That

in which all states of experiences happen.

 

In the beginning it may sound like intellectual, but understanding

of that which always IS, has to be our real nature, or Reality of

whatever we all seem to experience dawns on us sooner rather than

later. What is Reality, then?

If we continue to inquire, we may find that whether I am in joyful,

or painful or sad or indifference or even in depressed

situations, " I am " always present and " knowingness " of these various

situations I am in is also always present too, which I never notice

due to my attachments/aversions to situations. These situations

eventually disappear but not " I " .

What is the nature of this I that we all say I when referring to

ourselves? Whatever it is, for sure it IS! This ISNESS-I is the most

certain experience and is Truth. Even if I see illusion, I or seeing

is the truth. This seeing then is communicated as I see an object(or

hear, taste, smell, touch, think, feel etc). I and seeing is

synanymous as consciousness.

 

Now extend this to outer world. Regardless of objects we perceive

out there, Being Conscious of them is the only truth of our

experience. Thus, alleged external world is nothing but ONE

Undivided/Whole Existence/Consciousness(Absolute) in our experience.

Mind is given to us to divide the Existence into different objects

for practical and Divine play. When we come to this understanding,

our attitude towards world changes to one of dispassion, devotion

and to serve it as God, in whatever ways we can. We see God

everywhere our eyes fall upon!

This is God relization.

Namaskar.............Pratap Bhatt

 

GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES:

1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify their doubts

related to Gitaji shlokas. Therefore, responses which further

clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be posted.

2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to

substantiate your response.

3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the

extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas

4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting

sadhaka's time.

5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only.

6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other

organizations.

7. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone

number, address etc.

8. Please do not address the response to a particular individual

since the message is going to the entire group.

9. Due to the large readership, all responses may not be posted.

10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if content

is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the group.

11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth,

westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use to Sanskrit

words only, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit bracketed

wherever possible.

 

MODERATOR

Ram Ram

------------------------

 

Post message:

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Guest guest

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Posted
Posted

My question is that how to prove that there exists a super natural

power called " God " ? At least how to explain that. How to correlate

His existence with the character of the world? Children now a days

need more than belief to accept. Can there be any way vide which we

can establish that God exists. If some body says say :

1. Where is God I have never seen Him?

2. Who has seen Him?

3. How is He?

4. If I dont know how do I accept?

5. God is a term coined by elders to put moral shackles over us so

that we may indulge in goodness.

6. There has to be some basis for his existence? What are the logics

which point towards the existence of God? From where to pick the

thread?

 

Sarphod Tabalchi

 

 

NEW POSTING

 

I will come at these questions in a hard nosed manner, maybe I am

blessed as I too waved aside religions when younger but traveled full

circle to The Beloved, who I dearly love with my absolute being.

 

Question 6: There has to be some basis for his existence? What are

the logics which point towards the existence of God? From where to

pick the thread?

O.K. I would ask the skeptical young, (I will call him S. ), tell me

S. how did this Godless Universe begin? He may be a brilliant

physicist, good chance though, regardless S will start to talk about

the 'big bang', the question would then be, o.k. S. was there

substance, was there energy, and was there time, before the 'Event'?

I would ask S. also when this energy of the bang runs out what

then?, I would press the point home that the Great Indians

Traditions had a good explanation for all this many millennium

before the present time, and is probably a good guide for the

scientists. Oh! I would ask my young friend S. where did the laws of

physics come from? Apparently they are unique, the laws had to be

spot on for there to be an existance, that is what the physicist

seem to be saying.

 

I would ask S. one other thing, how is it possible for a spider to

build the perfect web according to its kind, without actually being

taught.

 

I would say to S., think about it, think about it, be tenacious, be

mercilessness, and be brave, let your desire for the truth take you

where it will, just hang in there! S. my friend I was once like you,

maybe one day we can really talk.

 

With Respect and Divine Love,

 

Mike Keenor

------------------------

 

Dear Sadak,

 

1. Where is God I have never seen Him?EXAMPLES Most children know

water is H2O (Hydrogen 2 parts and Oxygen 1 part) ask them them to

show hydrogen and oxygen showing water. Next show them Yogurt (Curd)

and ask them to show milk. Bigger children ask them to show planets.

Then tell then from Sanskrit slokas-- " God is apprameyam " that which

cannot be seen or known by senses as in case of above examples, as

God can be only known by Gyana (knowledge)

2. Who has seen Him? Like in case of scientist tell as per above

examples, so does Saints tell. Only a saint (Guru) can show God as

shown to Vivekananda by Swamy Ramakrishna

3. How is He? Slokas say: Aroopamai, Aksharamai. Roopam, Akandamai,

Viratroopamai Etc. No definite shape as HE appears in the form that

the devotee wants. HE is in sounds - Om, HE is like Sri Krishna/Sri

Rama Etc, Omnipresent (That cosmic energy filled in everything), HE

is in all shapes and forms.

4. If I dont know how do I accept? Contemplate. If you accept that

there is Galaxies then contemplate what energy is performing whole

universe, like in the case of any toy needs battery, car need petrol

or fuel, computer need electricity etc. Still do not want to accept-

Leave it.

 

Jai Sri Krishna

 

baiya sathyanarayan

-----------------------------

 

All questions arise out of answers. When one asks a question

either he needs a confirmation of the answer which he already has

or he is answering his own question. When somebody is asking a

question relating to God, first he has to explain what is in his

mind when he says or thinks of GOD.

 

Einstein said that the world is an optical illusion. We think and

feel that we are separated from the rest. This is an optical

illusion. We have no direct contact with the outside world. All

the sensorial data has to filter through our optical nerve and our

mind (delusion). So we have no idea of what is exactly out there.

When one realizes this he comes closer to God or some superior

knowledge.

 

To realise that we are the debris of God is the supreme

realisation.

 

The most mysterious thing holds the most important key. Death is

the most mysterious thing. Death holds the most important key.

 

When death happens. The soul/consciousness releases out of the

cage (body – which is always subjected to three dimensional view and

linear concept of time and space), one will realize or merge with

God

 

H. Subair

 

 

------------------------------

dear pratapji,thank u for giving us such wonderful knowledge.person

like you are really god's gift to us.

bhargav mehta

------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Re: Does God (Paramatma) Exist? Where is the Proof? What

is the logic ?

 

Through that supreme devotion he comes to know Me in reality, what

and how great I am; and thereby knowing Me in essence he forthwith

enters into My being.

 

Gita - Chapter 18 Sloka : 55

 

Sundara Raghavendran

---------------------------

 

Deaar Sadhakas, Namaste!

When someone says " where is God? I have never seen Him " , that person

has to know what God is that he expect to see, otherwise he cannot

ask the question. The question comes from the implicit assumption

that God is some imagination, ideas, knowledge, belief, etc. in the

mind and what I see out there is definitely not " God " .

So it is better to rephrase the question back to What God is first.

When that is understood, all questions by Tabalchiji will get

answered.

Consider the following dialogue:

Q: Do you have a doubt about your own existence?

A: No, I know I exist beyond a shadow of doubt. It is so obvious to

me!

Q: How do you know you exist?

A: I don't know HOW, but I am sure I DO!

Q: Do you need any help of another person, scripture, or some

logical explanation to confirm you do exist?

A: Definitely not, even if they say I don't exist, I know I do,

because it is experiential within me now. I don't even need any

sense organs-mind-intellect to tell me I exist!

 

So, it is self-evident existence, of " beingness " we all feel within

us, and by which we know what is knowable in this world as objects

of knowledge. This experience of Being Conscious is always with us,

never are we away from IT, not even in our sleep when body-mind-

world are all gone no one knows where! But I am always!

I just have to find out that ultimately this " I " is Impersonal and

is of the nature of Existence-Consciousness which we call God!

Personal God of Bhakta appears in this Impersonal!

Based on this, I can conclude that God is not a particular object

among many objects we know through sense organs, mind and intellect.

It is THE UNIQUE and objectless EXPERIENCE!

It is like our eyes who cannot see themselves and yet know their

existence beyond any shadow of doubt because SEEING takes place

automatically by just Being.

Once it is grasped, it can lead to God Realization!

Namaskar...

 

Pratap Bhatt

 

-------------------------------

 

My dear Sarphod,

There is a very beautiful story from ancient times that I have

heard from my guru. Once, a king called his minister and said, " I

want you to answer two questions.....otherwise your position will be

at stake.....first, can you show me God. Secondly, what is God

doing right now?

The minister was in anxiety. He went home, began searching

through various scriptures....wondering if he would have a job the

next day. His small son approached him, and noticing his father's

perplexity, inquired, " What troubles you, father? " The father

responded, " Oh, this is not something you would understand. " At

the child's persistence, the father finally explained. The small

child smiled, and simply said, " Father, that is so easy to

answer.....just tell the king that even a small child can answer

these inquiries, and I will then give him my responses " .

The father had no choice, as he didn't know the way to

respond. So, when the child came before the king, he requested the

king, " First, please have a pot of milk brought forth. " The king did

so. Then the child inquired, " Is there ghee in this milk? " The

king said, " Yes, it is there. " Then the child explained, " It is

there, but you cannot see it. Why can you not see the ghee? " The

king said, " There is a process by which the ghee will be brought

forth, of course, first one must churn the milk into butter, then

the butter is slowly heated until the ghee rises to the

surface......only after one patiently follows this process will he

see the ghee. " As the king was speaking, slowly realization came

into his heart, that similarly, one cannot demand to see God at this

moment....there is a process. One who's heart is not pure, who

does not have love and devotion, cannot see the Lord, but He will

certainly reveal Himself to those who are willing to accept the

process of " bringing forth the ghee " .

The child then said, " You are asking me what God is doing.

That is putting me in the postion of teacher, and you as disciple.

So, is it appropriate for you to be sitting on your throne, if you

are learning from me? " The wise King immediately pleced the child

on the throne, and sat in front of him, ready to try to understand

his next lesson. " This is what God is doing " ....he said. " He is

taking someone from a low position and putting him into a high

position, according to the results of his work, and taking someone

else from a high position and putting him into a low position. "

The king was very pleased with the child's answers, and rewarded him

and his father.

So, one may say, " I don't accept such simplistic

responses " .....well, then, such a person will never see the Lord,

unless and until he is fortunate enough to get the association of a

sadhu, by whose association one's heart melts. When one truly

comes into contact and develops some sukrti by contact with a God

consscious person, there is no material, anaytical way to explain

what happens. It is beyond our mundane intelligence, our ability to

analyze. So, simply pray for the youth you are hoping to guide,

and gradually perhaps the mercy of the sadhus will come to them.

It is not a mechanical process.

I hope my words have been gentle, encouraging, and helpful.....it

is truly a sadness which we all share as parents if our children

become somewhat agnostic or doubtful of the underestanding of the

Lord's presence, and the need for ancient, eternal tradition. We

can only pray to be the best examples of loving, patient friends for

them that we can possibly be.

 

respectfully,

Mahalaksmi Dasi

 

-------------------------------

Sarphod,

 

Read Paramahansa Yogananda's book " the Autoibgraphy of a Yogi "

published by Self Realization Fellowship, Los Angeles, CA.

 

Haley H. Haynes

--------------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

In this posting I would like to build on my previous post.

We as parents must deeply understand the truth of who we are, what

is the nature of world and God first. Then only we can explain to

our children. I would shy away to tell children that because it is

said in our scriptures, you have to believe in God being such and

such.

 

We can begin on the path of knowledge with the premise. That which

always IS irrespective of time, location or cause, is Truth. Truth,

thus, cannot be denied and has to be our continuous experience

always, not some states we experience that come and go, rather That

in which all states of experiences happen.

 

In the beginning it may sound like intellectual, but understanding

of that which always IS, has to be our real nature, or Reality of

whatever we all seem to experience dawns on us sooner rather than

later. What is Reality, then?

If we continue to inquire, we may find that whether I am in joyful,

or painful or sad or indifference or even in depressed

situations, " I am " always present and " knowingness " of these various

situations I am in is also always present too, which I never notice

due to my attachments/aversions to situations. These situations

eventually disappear but not " I " .

What is the nature of this I that we all say I when referring to

ourselves? Whatever it is, for sure it IS! This ISNESS-I is the most

certain experience and is Truth. Even if I see illusion, I or seeing

is the truth. This seeing then is communicated as I see an object(or

hear, taste, smell, touch, think, feel etc). I and seeing is

synanymous as consciousness.

 

Now extend this to outer world. Regardless of objects we perceive

out there, Being Conscious of them is the only truth of our

experience. Thus, alleged external world is nothing but ONE

Undivided/Whole Existence/Consciousness(Absolute) in our experience.

Mind is given to us to divide the Existence into different objects

for practical and Divine play. When we come to this understanding,

our attitude towards world changes to one of dispassion, devotion

and to serve it as God, in whatever ways we can. We see God

everywhere our eyes fall upon!

This is God relization.

Namaskar.............Pratap Bhatt

 

GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES:

1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify their doubts

related to Gitaji shlokas. Therefore, responses which further

clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be posted.

2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to

substantiate your response.

3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the

extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas

4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting

sadhaka's time.

5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only.

6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other

organizations.

7. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone

number, address etc.

8. Please do not address the response to a particular individual

since the message is going to the entire group.

9. Due to the large readership, all responses may not be posted.

10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if content

is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the group.

11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth,

westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use to Sanskrit

words only, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit bracketed

wherever possible.

 

MODERATOR

Ram Ram

------------------------

 

Post message:

Subscribe: -

Un: -

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Guest guest

Guest guest

Posted
Posted

My question is that how to prove that there exists a super natural

power called " God " ? At least how to explain that. How to correlate

His existence with the character of the world? Children now a days

need more than belief to accept. Can there be any way vide which we

can establish that God exists. If some body says say :

1. Where is God I have never seen Him?

2. Who has seen Him?

3. How is He?

4. If I dont know how do I accept?

5. God is a term coined by elders to put moral shackles over us so

that we may indulge in goodness.

6. There has to be some basis for his existence? What are the logics

which point towards the existence of God? From where to pick the

thread?

 

Sarphod Tabalchi

 

 

NEW POSTING

 

 

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

You have asked -

 

1) Where is God, I have never seen Him?

Answer: Paramatma is not an individual that you or any one can

simply see. Existence - IS-ness (sattaa maatre) has been given the

name Paramatma. Otherwise there is no name for that Existence or all

Names are only Paramatma's (Supreme Consciousness's) Names.

 

2) Who has seen Him?

Answer: Paramatma has not been seen by anyone to date and in future

too Paramatma will not be ever seen. Shraddhey Swamiji has stated

that Paramatma can be believed, not known, nor seen. Beyond this

whatever anyone says, is questionable.

 

3) How is He?

Answer: How, where, when, what, why, such questions regarding

Parmatma are pointless. That which cannot be known, it cannot be

described at all.

 

4) What are you able to know " Time " (samay). This question has been

asked regarding time (whose beginning and end is unknown to us). It

is not a question about the watch or the interval. It is not only

you, but no one understands anything about " time " . They can say

nothing about time. Then why do you believe in time? Similarly

believe and accept Paramatma, it will be nothing but gain.

 

5) This same work is also performed by men through establishment of

laws. Just as all do not believe in the law, similarly, everyone

continues to speak and share for correcting one's foolishness, and

according to one's own convenience and conformance giving that

tattva a " form " . You too can speak about the same as well.

 

6) The essence of belief (aastik tattva) itself is Paramatma. Then

where is one to get the support of this essential elemental belief

(aastik tattva)? Reasoning-deliberation-discussion (tark), proof-

evidence (pramaan) can be of that thing which we know. But Paramatma

is not known and cannot ever be known, then this reasoning and

seeking evidence is not in conformance to that reasoning.

 

7) Do you want Paramatma? or do you want an instruction manual or

an aphorism (sutra) to grab hold of Paramatma? Don't get caught up

in the vicious cycle of trying to find an instruction manual.

Leaving the search, become engaged in " Chup Saadhan " (Effortless

Awareness, Discipline of Silence). All quest, and inquiry will be

quietened, will become still.

 

Please kindly forgive any limitations in the expression / words

used.

 

Vineet Sarvottam

 

---------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

Let us continue further on the subject and build on what sadhakas have said.

Please, it may sound too intellectual, but it is not! It may humble us!

Consider this: If we need to know/study any object, the object has to exist in

the first place.

Even if we cannot know the object, we always know it exists. This knowing of an

existence is prior to the knowledge of its nature, attributes, function etc.

The Universe is a collection of objects, and can be said to be one Existence

fundamentally. Individual objects within it are individual existences localized

in space and time over which they exist, and change to other forms, continuing

the existences.

When we say Universe we mean the Existence only. Even the word Universe points

to the Existence first. How do we know such Existence itself? Only by being

aware/cognizant of it, no other way. So the Existence is awareness of Existence.

To see what is prior to such Existence, there has to be Awareness to know

whether or not such Existence IS. Thus Awareness as Existence has to be

beginningless! What is after the Existence, non-existence? no, because to say

it, there has to be Awareness of non-existence. If there is Awareness of

non-existence, IS-ness is established. Thus that which IS, the Existence(without

division into many objects), is eternally free of time and space containing all

objects(names/forms) in time and space by creating mind and endowing it with

this ability in terms of thoughts/feelings. Gita in 2:16 says the real never

ceases to be.

Such Awareful Existence has to be most Powerful, Intelligent, Beautiful, full of

Love and Blissful which is our experience. Can we not call this God?

God means Such Intelligence as seen through those who serve, and love

unconditionally, those who fight for Dharma, the righteousness, and those who

preach God's message!

Evil actions come out from not realizing the Truth of Eternal Oneness, GOD!

Namaskar.............Pratap Bhatt

 

 

 

----------------------------

My answer is simply to a question which has been indirectly

asked: " Why can't I see Him? "

Because He is the Seer. You are what you are looking for. It is

subjective awareness.

The problem lies with the word 'God' because we then suppose a

distinct being like a tribal deity. No, it is Awareness, Supernal-

consciousness. This is the Vedantic way. Find out who you really

are, not how others see you, but from your subjective perspective,

and you'll find what you're looking for.

Rishi Handa

 

----------------------------

Wonderful expression by Pratap (Bhatt) Bhai

 

Further, a simple but serious exercise could help in understanding

this.....

Sarphodji, ask yourself " who is asking these questions? "

" Who wants to know God? " ....and wait for the answer....

see what comes from deep inside.....

 

but you have to have patience.....and keep asking/repeating the

questions....

In fact when you come across any such question, ask yourself

who is this who wants to know this, who is asking the question?....

 

and wait for the answers and experience that follows.......

Best wishes

Sushil Jain

 

--------------------------------

I am a believer of God. Like one person said in the e-mail below, I

went through that 'show me God to believe' stage when I was around

22 years - 26 years. I was God lover before and again lover now. I

do not really know and I do not think with my limited ablity I can

ever know. At the same time I am not blind follower too. I am open

to all these 6 questions coming from a logical person because I had

them before too and have them now too. Before - with doubt, now -

with wonder and amazement.

 

Knowing God is a long journey. I am on the journey, I beleive I am

gradually understanding the divine concept. I am understanding them

through others, specially our ancestors, Indian scriptures. There

are great concepts, ideas and explanations, there are trash also

amongst them. I am amazed at the power of those ideas and

explanations. They attempted volumes and spent 100s of years to find

God and explain the divinity. Can I really understand all this in my

life? I doubt, which is why its a journey for me. Can I see God? It

depends on. I feel divinity in some great people, in their ideas for

humanity - around me.

 

OK, when somebody asks the question 'show me God', what they are

asking us is 'show me Jesus, Show me Shiva or show me Vishnu'. I

doubt if any one has seen God in these forms. Unless the divine

power appears so for any. As for God in its full form - Can I

imagine the distance between the Earth and the nearest star (Alpha

Centauri - about 4 light years away). I cannot imagine that

distance - however logically I think. Can I see God then - which is

full of this universe? Impossible to imagine. Then how can I see

God, unless God willingly appears to me.

 

My dear friend, answers to those 6 questions need volumes of

explanation or simply experiecing of the divine power - depending on

where you stand on the quest for God. Its a journey, so please

discuss with people who have done the research (of your 6 questions

before) and experience the facts yourself. You still go through the

oscillations of belief and disbeliefs, but if your quest is sincere

you will start seeing light at the end of tunnel.

 

The above does not give straight answers to even one of your

questions. So thanks for your time, if at all you read through this

until now.

 

Venu Gopal

--------------------------------

 

 

PRIOR POSTING

I will come at these questions in a hard nosed manner, maybe I am

blessed as I too waved aside religions when younger but traveled full

circle to The Beloved, who I dearly love with my absolute being.

 

Question 6: There has to be some basis for his existence? What are

the logics which point towards the existence of God? From where to

pick the thread?

O.K. I would ask the skeptical young, (I will call him S. ), tell me

S. how did this Godless Universe begin? He may be a brilliant

physicist, good chance though, regardless S will start to talk about

the 'big bang', the question would then be, o.k. S. was there

substance, was there energy, and was there time, before the 'Event'?

I would ask S. also when this energy of the bang runs out what

then?, I would press the point home that the Great Indians

Traditions had a good explanation for all this many millennium

before the present time, and is probably a good guide for the

scientists. Oh! I would ask my young friend S. where did the laws of

physics come from? Apparently they are unique, the laws had to be

spot on for there to be an existance, that is what the physicist

seem to be saying.

 

I would ask S. one other thing, how is it possible for a spider to

build the perfect web according to its kind, without actually being

taught.

 

I would say to S., think about it, think about it, be tenacious, be

mercilessness, and be brave, let your desire for the truth take you

where it will, just hang in there! S. my friend I was once like you,

maybe one day we can really talk.

 

With Respect and Divine Love,

 

Mike Keenor

------------------------

 

Dear Sadak,

 

1. Where is God I have never seen Him?EXAMPLES Most children know

water is H2O (Hydrogen 2 parts and Oxygen 1 part) ask them them to

show hydrogen and oxygen showing water. Next show them Yogurt (Curd)

and ask them to show milk. Bigger children ask them to show planets.

Then tell then from Sanskrit slokas-- " God is apprameyam " that which

cannot be seen or known by senses as in case of above examples, as

God can be only known by Gyana (knowledge)

2. Who has seen Him? Like in case of scientist tell as per above

examples, so does Saints tell. Only a saint (Guru) can show God as

shown to Vivekananda by Swamy Ramakrishna

3. How is He? Slokas say: Aroopamai, Aksharamai. Roopam, Akandamai,

Viratroopamai Etc. No definite shape as HE appears in the form that

the devotee wants. HE is in sounds - Om, HE is like Sri Krishna/Sri

Rama Etc, Omnipresent (That cosmic energy filled in everything), HE

is in all shapes and forms.

4. If I dont know how do I accept? Contemplate. If you accept that

there is Galaxies then contemplate what energy is performing whole

universe, like in the case of any toy needs battery, car need petrol

or fuel, computer need electricity etc. Still do not want to accept-

Leave it.

 

Jai Sri Krishna

 

baiya sathyanarayan

-----------------------------

 

All questions arise out of answers. When one asks a question

either he needs a confirmation of the answer which he already has

or he is answering his own question. When somebody is asking a

question relating to God, first he has to explain what is in his

mind when he says or thinks of GOD.

 

Einstein said that the world is an optical illusion. We think and

feel that we are separated from the rest. This is an optical

illusion. We have no direct contact with the outside world. All

the sensorial data has to filter through our optical nerve and our

mind (delusion). So we have no idea of what is exactly out there.

When one realizes this he comes closer to God or some superior

knowledge.

 

To realise that we are the debris of God is the supreme

realisation.

 

The most mysterious thing holds the most important key. Death is

the most mysterious thing. Death holds the most important key.

 

When death happens. The soul/consciousness releases out of the

cage (body – which is always subjected to three dimensional view and

linear concept of time and space), one will realize or merge with

God

 

H. Subair

 

 

------------------------------

dear pratapji,thank u for giving us such wonderful knowledge.person

like you are really god's gift to us.

bhargav mehta

------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Re: Does God (Paramatma) Exist? Where is the Proof? What

is the logic ?

 

Through that supreme devotion he comes to know Me in reality, what

and how great I am; and thereby knowing Me in essence he forthwith

enters into My being.

 

Gita - Chapter 18 Sloka : 55

 

Sundara Raghavendran

---------------------------

 

Deaar Sadhakas, Namaste!

When someone says " where is God? I have never seen Him " , that person

has to know what God is that he expect to see, otherwise he cannot

ask the question. The question comes from the implicit assumption

that God is some imagination, ideas, knowledge, belief, etc. in the

mind and what I see out there is definitely not " God " .

So it is better to rephrase the question back to What God is first.

When that is understood, all questions by Tabalchiji will get

answered.

Consider the following dialogue:

Q: Do you have a doubt about your own existence?

A: No, I know I exist beyond a shadow of doubt. It is so obvious to

me!

Q: How do you know you exist?

A: I don't know HOW, but I am sure I DO!

Q: Do you need any help of another person, scripture, or some

logical explanation to confirm you do exist?

A: Definitely not, even if they say I don't exist, I know I do,

because it is experiential within me now. I don't even need any

sense organs-mind-intellect to tell me I exist!

 

So, it is self-evident existence, of " beingness " we all feel within

us, and by which we know what is knowable in this world as objects

of knowledge. This experience of Being Conscious is always with us,

never are we away from IT, not even in our sleep when body-mind-

world are all gone no one knows where! But I am always!

I just have to find out that ultimately this " I " is Impersonal and

is of the nature of Existence-Consciousness which we call God!

Personal God of Bhakta appears in this Impersonal!

Based on this, I can conclude that God is not a particular object

among many objects we know through sense organs, mind and intellect.

It is THE UNIQUE and objectless EXPERIENCE!

It is like our eyes who cannot see themselves and yet know their

existence beyond any shadow of doubt because SEEING takes place

automatically by just Being.

Once it is grasped, it can lead to God Realization!

Namaskar...

 

Pratap Bhatt

 

-------------------------------

 

My dear Sarphod,

There is a very beautiful story from ancient times that I have

heard from my guru. Once, a king called his minister and said, " I

want you to answer two questions.....otherwise your position will be

at stake.....first, can you show me God. Secondly, what is God

doing right now?

The minister was in anxiety. He went home, began searching

through various scriptures....wondering if he would have a job the

next day. His small son approached him, and noticing his father's

perplexity, inquired, " What troubles you, father? " The father

responded, " Oh, this is not something you would understand. " At

the child's persistence, the father finally explained. The small

child smiled, and simply said, " Father, that is so easy to

answer.....just tell the king that even a small child can answer

these inquiries, and I will then give him my responses " .

The father had no choice, as he didn't know the way to

respond. So, when the child came before the king, he requested the

king, " First, please have a pot of milk brought forth. " The king did

so. Then the child inquired, " Is there ghee in this milk? " The

king said, " Yes, it is there. " Then the child explained, " It is

there, but you cannot see it. Why can you not see the ghee? " The

king said, " There is a process by which the ghee will be brought

forth, of course, first one must churn the milk into butter, then

the butter is slowly heated until the ghee rises to the

surface......only after one patiently follows this process will he

see the ghee. " As the king was speaking, slowly realization came

into his heart, that similarly, one cannot demand to see God at this

moment....there is a process. One who's heart is not pure, who

does not have love and devotion, cannot see the Lord, but He will

certainly reveal Himself to those who are willing to accept the

process of " bringing forth the ghee " .

The child then said, " You are asking me what God is doing.

That is putting me in the postion of teacher, and you as disciple.

So, is it appropriate for you to be sitting on your throne, if you

are learning from me? " The wise King immediately pleced the child

on the throne, and sat in front of him, ready to try to understand

his next lesson. " This is what God is doing " ....he said. " He is

taking someone from a low position and putting him into a high

position, according to the results of his work, and taking someone

else from a high position and putting him into a low position. "

The king was very pleased with the child's answers, and rewarded him

and his father.

So, one may say, " I don't accept such simplistic

responses " .....well, then, such a person will never see the Lord,

unless and until he is fortunate enough to get the association of a

sadhu, by whose association one's heart melts. When one truly

comes into contact and develops some sukrti by contact with a God

consscious person, there is no material, anaytical way to explain

what happens. It is beyond our mundane intelligence, our ability to

analyze. So, simply pray for the youth you are hoping to guide,

and gradually perhaps the mercy of the sadhus will come to them.

It is not a mechanical process.

I hope my words have been gentle, encouraging, and helpful.....it

is truly a sadness which we all share as parents if our children

become somewhat agnostic or doubtful of the underestanding of the

Lord's presence, and the need for ancient, eternal tradition. We

can only pray to be the best examples of loving, patient friends for

them that we can possibly be.

 

respectfully,

Mahalaksmi Dasi

 

-------------------------------

Sarphod,

 

Read Paramahansa Yogananda's book " the Autoibgraphy of a Yogi "

published by Self Realization Fellowship, Los Angeles, CA.

 

Haley H. Haynes

--------------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

In this posting I would like to build on my previous post.

We as parents must deeply understand the truth of who we are, what

is the nature of world and God first. Then only we can explain to

our children. I would shy away to tell children that because it is

said in our scriptures, you have to believe in God being such and

such.

 

We can begin on the path of knowledge with the premise. That which

always IS irrespective of time, location or cause, is Truth. Truth,

thus, cannot be denied and has to be our continuous experience

always, not some states we experience that come and go, rather That

in which all states of experiences happen.

 

In the beginning it may sound like intellectual, but understanding

of that which always IS, has to be our real nature, or Reality of

whatever we all seem to experience dawns on us sooner rather than

later. What is Reality, then?

If we continue to inquire, we may find that whether I am in joyful,

or painful or sad or indifference or even in depressed

situations, " I am " always present and " knowingness " of these various

situations I am in is also always present too, which I never notice

due to my attachments/aversions to situations. These situations

eventually disappear but not " I " .

What is the nature of this I that we all say I when referring to

ourselves? Whatever it is, for sure it IS! This ISNESS-I is the most

certain experience and is Truth. Even if I see illusion, I or seeing

is the truth. This seeing then is communicated as I see an object(or

hear, taste, smell, touch, think, feel etc). I and seeing is

synanymous as consciousness.

 

Now extend this to outer world. Regardless of objects we perceive

out there, Being Conscious of them is the only truth of our

experience. Thus, alleged external world is nothing but ONE

Undivided/Whole Existence/Consciousness(Absolute) in our experience.

Mind is given to us to divide the Existence into different objects

for practical and Divine play. When we come to this understanding,

our attitude towards world changes to one of dispassion, devotion

and to serve it as God, in whatever ways we can. We see God

everywhere our eyes fall upon!

This is God relization.

Namaskar.............Pratap Bhatt

 

GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES:

1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify their doubts

related to Gitaji shlokas. Therefore, responses which further

clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be posted.

2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to

substantiate your response.

3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the

extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas

4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting

sadhaka's time.

5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only.

6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other

organizations.

7. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone

number, address etc.

8. Please do not address the response to a particular individual

since the message is going to the entire group.

9. Due to the large readership, all responses may not be posted.

10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if content

is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the group.

11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth,

westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use to Sanskrit

words only, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit bracketed

wherever possible.

 

MODERATOR

Ram Ram

------------------------

 

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My question is that how to prove that there exists a super natural

power called " God " ? At least how to explain that. How to correlate

His existence with the character of the world? Children now a days

need more than belief to accept. Can there be any way vide which we

can establish that God exists. If some body says say :

1. Where is God I have never seen Him?

2. Who has seen Him?

3. How is He?

4. If I dont know how do I accept?

5. God is a term coined by elders to put moral shackles over us so

that we may indulge in goodness.

6. There has to be some basis for his existence? What are the logics

which point towards the existence of God? From where to pick the

thread?

 

Sarphod Tabalchi

 

 

NEW POSTING

 

RESUBMITTED WITH SOME CORRECTIONS

 

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

You have asked -

 

1) Where is God, I have never seen Him?

Answer: Paramatma is not an individual that you or any one can

simply see. Existence - IS-ness (sattaa maatre) has been given the

name Paramatma. Otherwise there is no name for that Existence or all

Names are only Paramatma's (Supreme Consciousness's) Names.

 

2) Who has seen Him?

Answer: Paramatma has not been seen by anyone to date and in future

too Paramatma will not be ever seen. Shraddhey Swamiji has stated

that Paramatma can be believed, not known, nor seen. Beyond this

whatever anyone says, is questionable.

 

3) How is He?

Answer: How, where, when, what, why, such questions regarding

Parmatma are pointless. That which cannot be known, it cannot be

described at all.

 

4) What are you able to know " Time " (samay). This question has been

asked regarding time (whose beginning and end is unknown to us). It

is not a question about the watch or the interval. It is not only

you, but no one understands anything about " time " . They can say

nothing about time. Then why do you believe in time? Similarly

believe and accept Paramatma, it will be nothing but gain.

 

5) This same work is also performed by men through establishment of

laws. Just as all do not believe in the law, similarly, everyone

continues to speak and share for correcting one's foolishness, and

according to one's own convenience and conformance giving that

tattva a " form " . You too can speak about the same as well.

 

6) 'Existence' itself is 'Paramaatmaa'. Where can any supportive

arguments and evidence exist to establish the existence

of 'Existence' (named Paramaatmaa)? Then where is one to get the

support of this essential elemental belief 'ASTITTVA'? Reasoning-

deliberation-discussion (tark), proof-evidence (pramaan) can be of

that thing which we know. But Paramatma is not known and cannot ever

be known, then this reasoning and seeking evidence is not in

conformance to that reasoning.

 

7) Do you want Paramatma? or do you want an instruction manual or

an aphorism (sutra) to grab hold of Paramatma? Don't get caught up

in the vicious cycle of trying to find an instruction manual.

Leaving the search, become engaged in " Chup Saadhan " (Effortless

Awareness, Discipline of Silence). All quest, and inquiry will be

quietened, will become still.

 

Please kindly forgive any limitations in the expression / words

used.

 

Vineet Sarvottam

--------------------------

 

Hari Om

 

How to know what is beyond knowledge - is the moot question.

 

Logic/Rationale !! Proof !!! Sample !! Consider the following:

 

1 .Whatever we are able to see on this earth there is always a

creator /manufacturer - be it an allpin, pen, table, house, machine,

house, bed, watch, pen, paper, cloth or aircraft. Anything visible.

Then there should be creator of oceans, fire, air, mountains, earth,

Sun. Moon, stars also !

 

God is the creator of all. - CREATOR

 

2. Whatever thing which moves , be it car, aircraft, bicycle,

machine, computer, - there is always a controller thereof. Earth

also moves. Sun/Moon also move. Oceans remain in their limits. Sun

rises and sets perfectly without fail. There must be a controller of

them also!

 

God is the controller of all- CONTROLLER

 

Q BUT A HUMAN BEING ALSO CREATES ! WHAT IS SO IMPORTANT ABOUT IT ?

 

Ans A human being cannot " create " anything! It is only " nature "

which creates! You can only change the shape thereof. You can covert

gold into ornaments or iron into sword or utensil, but you can't

create gold or iron ! Only nature provides that. You can mix two or

more elements, formulate, change shape only. You can create . You

can " discover " only.

 

To be continued.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

-------------------------

Kindly read bertrand russel

Aranha Roy

 

---------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

Let us continue further on the subject and build on what sadhakas

have said.

Please, it may sound too intellectual, but it is not! It may humble

us!

Consider this: If we need to know/study any object, the object has

to exist in

the first place.

Even if we cannot know the object, we always know it exists. This

knowing of an

existence is prior to the knowledge of its nature, attributes,

function etc.

The Universe is a collection of objects, and can be said to be one

Existence

fundamentally. Individual objects within it are individual

existences localized

in space and time over which they exist, and change to other forms,

continuing

the existences.

When we say Universe we mean the Existence only. Even the word

Universe points

to the Existence first. How do we know such Existence itself? Only

by being

aware/cognizant of it, no other way. So the Existence is awareness

of Existence.

To see what is prior to such Existence, there has to be Awareness to

know

whether or not such Existence IS. Thus Awareness as Existence has to

be

beginningless! What is after the Existence, non-existence? no,

because to say

it, there has to be Awareness of non-existence. If there is

Awareness of

non-existence, IS-ness is established. Thus that which IS, the

Existence(without

division into many objects), is eternally free of time and space

containing all

objects(names/forms) in time and space by creating mind and endowing

it with

this ability in terms of thoughts/feelings. Gita in 2:16 says the

real never

ceases to be.

Such Awareful Existence has to be most Powerful, Intelligent,

Beautiful, full of

Love and Blissful which is our experience. Can we not call this God?

God means Such Intelligence as seen through those who serve, and love

unconditionally, those who fight for Dharma, the righteousness, and

those who

preach God's message!

Evil actions come out from not realizing the Truth of Eternal

Oneness, GOD!

Namaskar.............Pratap Bhatt

 

 

 

----------------------------

My answer is simply to a question which has been indirectly

asked: " Why can't I see Him? "

Because He is the Seer. You are what you are looking for. It is

subjective awareness.

The problem lies with the word 'God' because we then suppose a

distinct being like a tribal deity. No, it is Awareness, Supernal-

consciousness. This is the Vedantic way. Find out who you really

are, not how others see you, but from your subjective perspective,

and you'll find what you're looking for.

Rishi Handa

 

----------------------------

Wonderful expression by Pratap (Bhatt) Bhai

 

Further, a simple but serious exercise could help in understanding

this.....

Sarphodji, ask yourself " who is asking these questions? "

" Who wants to know God? " ....and wait for the answer....

see what comes from deep inside.....

 

but you have to have patience.....and keep asking/repeating the

questions....

In fact when you come across any such question, ask yourself

who is this who wants to know this, who is asking the question?....

 

and wait for the answers and experience that follows.......

Best wishes

Sushil Jain

 

--------------------------------

I am a believer of God. Like one person said in the e-mail below, I

went through that 'show me God to believe' stage when I was around

22 years - 26 years. I was God lover before and again lover now. I

do not really know and I do not think with my limited ablity I can

ever know. At the same time I am not blind follower too. I am open

to all these 6 questions coming from a logical person because I had

them before too and have them now too. Before - with doubt, now -

with wonder and amazement.

 

Knowing God is a long journey. I am on the journey, I beleive I am

gradually understanding the divine concept. I am understanding them

through others, specially our ancestors, Indian scriptures. There

are great concepts, ideas and explanations, there are trash also

amongst them. I am amazed at the power of those ideas and

explanations. They attempted volumes and spent 100s of years to find

God and explain the divinity. Can I really understand all this in my

life? I doubt, which is why its a journey for me. Can I see God? It

depends on. I feel divinity in some great people, in their ideas for

humanity - around me.

 

OK, when somebody asks the question 'show me God', what they are

asking us is 'show me Jesus, Show me Shiva or show me Vishnu'. I

doubt if any one has seen God in these forms. Unless the divine

power appears so for any. As for God in its full form - Can I

imagine the distance between the Earth and the nearest star (Alpha

Centauri - about 4 light years away). I cannot imagine that

distance - however logically I think. Can I see God then - which is

full of this universe? Impossible to imagine. Then how can I see

God, unless God willingly appears to me.

 

My dear friend, answers to those 6 questions need volumes of

explanation or simply experiecing of the divine power - depending on

where you stand on the quest for God. Its a journey, so please

discuss with people who have done the research (of your 6 questions

before) and experience the facts yourself. You still go through the

oscillations of belief and disbeliefs, but if your quest is sincere

you will start seeing light at the end of tunnel.

 

The above does not give straight answers to even one of your

questions. So thanks for your time, if at all you read through this

until now.

 

Venu Gopal

--------------------------------

 

 

PRIOR POSTING

I will come at these questions in a hard nosed manner, maybe I am

blessed as I too waved aside religions when younger but traveled full

circle to The Beloved, who I dearly love with my absolute being.

 

Question 6: There has to be some basis for his existence? What are

the logics which point towards the existence of God? From where to

pick the thread?

O.K. I would ask the skeptical young, (I will call him S. ), tell me

S. how did this Godless Universe begin? He may be a brilliant

physicist, good chance though, regardless S will start to talk about

the 'big bang', the question would then be, o.k. S. was there

substance, was there energy, and was there time, before the 'Event'?

I would ask S. also when this energy of the bang runs out what

then?, I would press the point home that the Great Indians

Traditions had a good explanation for all this many millennium

before the present time, and is probably a good guide for the

scientists. Oh! I would ask my young friend S. where did the laws of

physics come from? Apparently they are unique, the laws had to be

spot on for there to be an existance, that is what the physicist

seem to be saying.

 

I would ask S. one other thing, how is it possible for a spider to

build the perfect web according to its kind, without actually being

taught.

 

I would say to S., think about it, think about it, be tenacious, be

mercilessness, and be brave, let your desire for the truth take you

where it will, just hang in there! S. my friend I was once like you,

maybe one day we can really talk.

 

With Respect and Divine Love,

 

Mike Keenor

------------------------

 

Dear Sadak,

 

1. Where is God I have never seen Him?EXAMPLES Most children know

water is H2O (Hydrogen 2 parts and Oxygen 1 part) ask them them to

show hydrogen and oxygen showing water. Next show them Yogurt (Curd)

and ask them to show milk. Bigger children ask them to show planets.

Then tell then from Sanskrit slokas-- " God is apprameyam " that which

cannot be seen or known by senses as in case of above examples, as

God can be only known by Gyana (knowledge)

2. Who has seen Him? Like in case of scientist tell as per above

examples, so does Saints tell. Only a saint (Guru) can show God as

shown to Vivekananda by Swamy Ramakrishna

3. How is He? Slokas say: Aroopamai, Aksharamai. Roopam, Akandamai,

Viratroopamai Etc. No definite shape as HE appears in the form that

the devotee wants. HE is in sounds - Om, HE is like Sri Krishna/Sri

Rama Etc, Omnipresent (That cosmic energy filled in everything), HE

is in all shapes and forms.

4. If I dont know how do I accept? Contemplate. If you accept that

there is Galaxies then contemplate what energy is performing whole

universe, like in the case of any toy needs battery, car need petrol

or fuel, computer need electricity etc. Still do not want to accept-

Leave it.

 

Jai Sri Krishna

 

baiya sathyanarayan

-----------------------------

 

All questions arise out of answers. When one asks a question

either he needs a confirmation of the answer which he already has

or he is answering his own question. When somebody is asking a

question relating to God, first he has to explain what is in his

mind when he says or thinks of GOD.

 

Einstein said that the world is an optical illusion. We think and

feel that we are separated from the rest. This is an optical

illusion. We have no direct contact with the outside world. All

the sensorial data has to filter through our optical nerve and our

mind (delusion). So we have no idea of what is exactly out there.

When one realizes this he comes closer to God or some superior

knowledge.

 

To realise that we are the debris of God is the supreme

realisation.

 

The most mysterious thing holds the most important key. Death is

the most mysterious thing. Death holds the most important key.

 

When death happens. The soul/consciousness releases out of the

cage (body – which is always subjected to three dimensional view and

linear concept of time and space), one will realize or merge with

God

 

H. Subair

 

 

------------------------------

dear pratapji,thank u for giving us such wonderful knowledge.person

like you are really god's gift to us.

bhargav mehta

------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Re: Does God (Paramatma) Exist? Where is the Proof? What

is the logic ?

 

Through that supreme devotion he comes to know Me in reality, what

and how great I am; and thereby knowing Me in essence he forthwith

enters into My being.

 

Gita - Chapter 18 Sloka : 55

 

Sundara Raghavendran

---------------------------

 

Deaar Sadhakas, Namaste!

When someone says " where is God? I have never seen Him " , that person

has to know what God is that he expect to see, otherwise he cannot

ask the question. The question comes from the implicit assumption

that God is some imagination, ideas, knowledge, belief, etc. in the

mind and what I see out there is definitely not " God " .

So it is better to rephrase the question back to What God is first.

When that is understood, all questions by Tabalchiji will get

answered.

Consider the following dialogue:

Q: Do you have a doubt about your own existence?

A: No, I know I exist beyond a shadow of doubt. It is so obvious to

me!

Q: How do you know you exist?

A: I don't know HOW, but I am sure I DO!

Q: Do you need any help of another person, scripture, or some

logical explanation to confirm you do exist?

A: Definitely not, even if they say I don't exist, I know I do,

because it is experiential within me now. I don't even need any

sense organs-mind-intellect to tell me I exist!

 

So, it is self-evident existence, of " beingness " we all feel within

us, and by which we know what is knowable in this world as objects

of knowledge. This experience of Being Conscious is always with us,

never are we away from IT, not even in our sleep when body-mind-

world are all gone no one knows where! But I am always!

I just have to find out that ultimately this " I " is Impersonal and

is of the nature of Existence-Consciousness which we call God!

Personal God of Bhakta appears in this Impersonal!

Based on this, I can conclude that God is not a particular object

among many objects we know through sense organs, mind and intellect.

It is THE UNIQUE and objectless EXPERIENCE!

It is like our eyes who cannot see themselves and yet know their

existence beyond any shadow of doubt because SEEING takes place

automatically by just Being.

Once it is grasped, it can lead to God Realization!

Namaskar...

 

Pratap Bhatt

 

-------------------------------

 

My dear Sarphod,

There is a very beautiful story from ancient times that I have

heard from my guru. Once, a king called his minister and said, " I

want you to answer two questions.....otherwise your position will be

at stake.....first, can you show me God. Secondly, what is God

doing right now?

The minister was in anxiety. He went home, began searching

through various scriptures....wondering if he would have a job the

next day. His small son approached him, and noticing his father's

perplexity, inquired, " What troubles you, father? " The father

responded, " Oh, this is not something you would understand. " At

the child's persistence, the father finally explained. The small

child smiled, and simply said, " Father, that is so easy to

answer.....just tell the king that even a small child can answer

these inquiries, and I will then give him my responses " .

The father had no choice, as he didn't know the way to

respond. So, when the child came before the king, he requested the

king, " First, please have a pot of milk brought forth. " The king did

so. Then the child inquired, " Is there ghee in this milk? " The

king said, " Yes, it is there. " Then the child explained, " It is

there, but you cannot see it. Why can you not see the ghee? " The

king said, " There is a process by which the ghee will be brought

forth, of course, first one must churn the milk into butter, then

the butter is slowly heated until the ghee rises to the

surface......only after one patiently follows this process will he

see the ghee. " As the king was speaking, slowly realization came

into his heart, that similarly, one cannot demand to see God at this

moment....there is a process. One who's heart is not pure, who

does not have love and devotion, cannot see the Lord, but He will

certainly reveal Himself to those who are willing to accept the

process of " bringing forth the ghee " .

The child then said, " You are asking me what God is doing.

That is putting me in the postion of teacher, and you as disciple.

So, is it appropriate for you to be sitting on your throne, if you

are learning from me? " The wise King immediately pleced the child

on the throne, and sat in front of him, ready to try to understand

his next lesson. " This is what God is doing " ....he said. " He is

taking someone from a low position and putting him into a high

position, according to the results of his work, and taking someone

else from a high position and putting him into a low position. "

The king was very pleased with the child's answers, and rewarded him

and his father.

So, one may say, " I don't accept such simplistic

responses " .....well, then, such a person will never see the Lord,

unless and until he is fortunate enough to get the association of a

sadhu, by whose association one's heart melts. When one truly

comes into contact and develops some sukrti by contact with a God

consscious person, there is no material, anaytical way to explain

what happens. It is beyond our mundane intelligence, our ability to

analyze. So, simply pray for the youth you are hoping to guide,

and gradually perhaps the mercy of the sadhus will come to them.

It is not a mechanical process.

I hope my words have been gentle, encouraging, and helpful.....it

is truly a sadness which we all share as parents if our children

become somewhat agnostic or doubtful of the underestanding of the

Lord's presence, and the need for ancient, eternal tradition. We

can only pray to be the best examples of loving, patient friends for

them that we can possibly be.

 

respectfully,

Mahalaksmi Dasi

 

-------------------------------

Sarphod,

 

Read Paramahansa Yogananda's book " the Autoibgraphy of a Yogi "

published by Self Realization Fellowship, Los Angeles, CA.

 

Haley H. Haynes

--------------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

In this posting I would like to build on my previous post.

We as parents must deeply understand the truth of who we are, what

is the nature of world and God first. Then only we can explain to

our children. I would shy away to tell children that because it is

said in our scriptures, you have to believe in God being such and

such.

 

We can begin on the path of knowledge with the premise. That which

always IS irrespective of time, location or cause, is Truth. Truth,

thus, cannot be denied and has to be our continuous experience

always, not some states we experience that come and go, rather That

in which all states of experiences happen.

 

In the beginning it may sound like intellectual, but understanding

of that which always IS, has to be our real nature, or Reality of

whatever we all seem to experience dawns on us sooner rather than

later. What is Reality, then?

If we continue to inquire, we may find that whether I am in joyful,

or painful or sad or indifference or even in depressed

situations, " I am " always present and " knowingness " of these various

situations I am in is also always present too, which I never notice

due to my attachments/aversions to situations. These situations

eventually disappear but not " I " .

What is the nature of this I that we all say I when referring to

ourselves? Whatever it is, for sure it IS! This ISNESS-I is the most

certain experience and is Truth. Even if I see illusion, I or seeing

is the truth. This seeing then is communicated as I see an object(or

hear, taste, smell, touch, think, feel etc). I and seeing is

synanymous as consciousness.

 

Now extend this to outer world. Regardless of objects we perceive

out there, Being Conscious of them is the only truth of our

experience. Thus, alleged external world is nothing but ONE

Undivided/Whole Existence/Consciousness(Absolute) in our experience.

Mind is given to us to divide the Existence into different objects

for practical and Divine play. When we come to this understanding,

our attitude towards world changes to one of dispassion, devotion

and to serve it as God, in whatever ways we can. We see God

everywhere our eyes fall upon!

This is God relization.

Namaskar.............Pratap Bhatt

 

GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES:

1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify their doubts

related to Gitaji shlokas. Therefore, responses which further

clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be posted.

2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to

substantiate your response.

3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the

extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas

4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting

sadhaka's time.

5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only.

6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other

organizations.

7. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone

number, address etc.

8. Please do not address the response to a particular individual

since the message is going to the entire group.

9. Due to the large readership, all responses may not be posted.

10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if content

is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the group.

11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth,

westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use to Sanskrit

words only, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit bracketed

wherever possible.

 

MODERATOR

Ram Ram

------------------------

 

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Posted

My question is that how to prove that there exists a super natural

power called " God " ? At least how to explain that. How to correlate

His existence with the character of the world? Children now a days

need more than belief to accept. Can there be any way vide which we

can establish that God exists. If some body says say :

1. Where is God I have never seen Him?

2. Who has seen Him?

3. How is He?

4. If I dont know how do I accept?

5. God is a term coined by elders to put moral shackles over us so

that we may indulge in goodness.

6. There has to be some basis for his existence? What are the logics

which point towards the existence of God? From where to pick the

thread?

 

Sarphod Tabalchi

 

 

NEW POSTING

 

Dear Sadhak,

Excellent explanation has been given by sadhak Pratapji....Excellent!

If the parents donot know GOD how can they teach the kids?

Swamiji says if something is lying in darkness we can take a deepak

with us to see it but to see a deepak(lamp) we donot need another

deepak. Same way the objects of this whole worlds can be

seen/experienced through the " SELF " but to know this SELF we donot

need anything from the world( mind/body/intellect etc.) Only SELF

knows it SELF.

1. Where is God I have never seen Him?

He is not HE, He is " I " . When we can see/know who am I we can

see/know who is God.

Indeed, You alone know Yourself by Your own potencies, O origin of

all, Lord of all beings, God of gods, O Supreme Person, Lord of the

universe! Ch10:15

2. Who has seen Him?

All realized people have known HIM.Some claim that they have seen

HIM too.

Swami Vivekananda asked this question to everyone he met-Have you

seen God ? All answers negative except Ramkrishna Paramhansa.He said-

" Yes I have seen God as clearly as I am seeing you right now. "

Listening to this Narendra became his disciple.

3. How is He?

With a single fragment of Myself I pervade and support this entire

universe.Ch10:42

4. If I dont know how do I accept?

Then go ahead follow the path shown to us by Swamiji or any realized

soul, and know Him first, then accept.

5. God is a term coined by elders to put moral shackles over us so

that we may indulge in goodness.

What's wrong with that ? Accept God ,be righteous and be Arjuna or

donot accept Him, be Duryodhana - choice is yours.

6. There has to be some basis for his existence? What are the logics

which point towards the existence of God? From where to pick the

thread?

Start with meditation and Gita. Follow the path shown by Him in Gita-

Karma Yoga, Gyaan Yoga or Bhakti Yoga. Establish yr self in YOGA.....

 

No one can force any one to believe. Kids learn by imitation. Lead

yr own life according to Dharma,and kids will pick it up.Before

giving them tatva Gyaan(absolute knowledge),its better to sit with

them and watch Ramayana, Krishna, Mahabharata and let them learn by

the character of our Sagun Sakaar Bhagwaan(God with Forms). If they

can learn from Rama or Krishna, they will be on right path and will

get their realization at their own speed.

with lots of Love,

a sadhika

Sadhna Karigar

 

--------------------------------

Jai Hanuman

 

Oye What a question Jee!!. As good as the name of the

questioner!! " Sarphod " in Hindi means skull breaker ! " Tablachi "

means he who plays treble. Unique Jee !! Namaste Sarphodji !!

Welcome Jee ! There is music everywhere ! Who kept such a classic

name Jee ? Father? OK, pick the thread from father only.

 

How do I accept if I don't know? Accept just as you accepted some

one to be your father without knowing anything about him. Don't say

please- " that children now a days need more than belief to accept " .

That, I am afraid, is not as classic a statement as is even your

kind name. Fact is that children practice only belief and solid

belief. They are masters of belief - and teachers of entire humanity

on this subject of belief. Poor adults need proof. What kind of

proof was solicited by you in accepting some one to be your father

or some name to be mine or for that purpose by " the children of now

a days " - say son of Sarphod Tablachi, if any ??

 

Do you " know " as to who is your father and who is your mother? What

proof or rationale you can give to support your acceptance of Mr X

as your father?

 

You asked " from where to pick the thread " . I reply to you that you

pick the thread from yourself and your Dear Father. Come On !

 

Reply now! Argue !!

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

-------------------------------

Mr.Pratapji Bhatt has explained the existance of God beautifully.It

is very much in sync with Sri Sri Paramhansa Yogananda's explanation

in his books- " Autobiography of a yogi " and " Man's eternal quest "

which i have read. Also the story quoted by mahalaksmiji perfectly

describes how to know God.He is all knowing and yet unknown.He is

the Devine Intelligence that governs all that is known to us.God is

indescribebable.He can only be felt in the depths of a pure soul.

Ami Chhowala

 

--------------------------------

I still remain unsatisfied in this " divine " forum. How and why

Paramatma can not be an individual ? Is there nothing in your

scriptures like Gita which says that a devotee can also " see " God ?

My Begum Sahiba states that she read from a book of your Swami

Ramsukhdasji that Jai Dayal Goenka and Hanuman Poddar

had " darshanas " of God. Was His statement right or your reference

of good Swami is right? Why do you say that God can not be known?

How then the desire to know can be fulfilled? Whether I need an

instruction manual or not is not the focal point, in fact, to be

fair to me, answer to my questions in simple and convincing manner

is focal point! None of the " sadhaks " are convincing so far. I

asked from where to pick the thread? The responses are unclear and

incomplete.

 

Mr Mike ! Incomplete, was your answer. If you believe you were like

me in the past, then make me like you in the present. Is that not a

divine task? Is that not the role of this forum? Logic must exist.

Pointers must be there. Knowledge cant be beyond itself. What else

we are doing at present except meeting?

 

Mr Vyas - When Your so called " Nature " made oceans, Sun Moon etc

and when Nature is supreme then where is the question of God? Why

cant Fire/ Ocean/etc are called God ? If yes, then how God is

beyond knowledge? How God can not be seen as stated by Mr Pratap

Bhatt or by Vineet Sarvottam ?

 

" Sadhaks " - My Begum Sahibaa directed me to you people to satisfy

my knowledge quest ! I expected better as I am hungry for answers.

 

Sarphod Tabalchi

--------------------------------

Such a question can only arise from those who consider gross body as

real self and not the outer sheath of immortal " real self " which

contains the apriori knowledge.

 

They see God every day but do not recognise THEE. The Universal God

is Tri-Ani-Pada- three bodies in One i.e. gross, subtle and divine.

Since the entire Brahamad is God, His gross body consists of " Sun

and Moon His eyes, firmament his middle body and earth as His Feet "

and His Head is in Heaven. Thus entire Brahmand is God. Most of the

people who find gross body as real, want to imagine and visulaise

God as a human being forgetting that human beings who live on this

earth are " Thy " tiny living cells. We have several billions living

cells in our gross body, can any living cell of our body tell who we

are?

 

But those who find human soul as " real self " have no difficulty in

knowing God. His divine body is the Omniscient Supreme Soul

(Parmatma) and His subtle body " Mahadeva " is omnipotent Supreme

Spirit prevalent in all animate and inanimate life/things. His

spirit is found in Shuniya (cosmic void) of all kind of matter

consisting of atoms with unsuspected vitality. Because of His spirit

prevalent in shuniya, matter is not inert.

 

Since Man is born in the image of God, human beings are also tri-ani-

pada. Immortal soul resides in our divine body, spirit resides in

our subtle body and gross instruments in our material body. Those

who consider material gross body as the real self will always find

difficult to know formless and ineffable universal God.

 

Incidentally formeless and ineffable Universal God is Brahma- name

derived from Brahmand and other gods in human form are Iswaras.

Iswaras are not the gods of entire mankind.

with regards,

Prem Sabhlok

 

 

--------------------------------

Dear sarphod,

 

God is in nature,he can only be felt.His power is dwelling

everywhere in the nature in the form of cosmic vibratioins .If we

can tune our mind with the same frequency by way of sadhana we can

feel the godliness of the nature.How a sperm can create a body with

life is the proof of the supernatural power of the god. So far we

are only establishing the things which are existing, but we are

unable to establish about the source of the existence.

Our ultimate goal our of life is to reuntite ourselves with the

nature from where we have come.Nothing extra to be thought about

god. Living close to the nature is living near god. But the senses

attached to our body always act against our realisation

process.controling the senses is the biggest challenge of our life.

Let us teach our children about righteous way of living ,think

naturally and live naturally.

 

with regards

Ramana kothuri

 

-------------------------------

--------------------------------

The questions of Mr Sarphod Tabalchi are basic questions. I too

dont believe that the Supreme Power would not leave any pointers or

logics of His existence. From where to pick the thread ? I dont

agree with Mr Sarvottam that God can not be seen by His beloved

ones.. There has to be nothing which is beyond the powers of

Supreme. One principle came from Mike's narration and Mr Vyas'

message that before " big bang " too something existed or that if

there is creation then there must be a creator. But how that is

exclusive prorogative of God only ? Creativity is universal symptom

and authority. Spiders are also creators as per Mike Keenor. Please

elaborate with reference to Sarphod's questions. What about five

elements? Are they creators? Are not these elements playing the

transformation game? I think more serious and direct discussions are

warranted on the subject, not just belief stricken answers. First

the logics/rationales have to be exhausted.

 

Luca Brasi

----------------------------

 

Jai Kali Mata

 

What is meant by " No one knows about time!!! " Also, I am unclear as

to how this is relevant to the questions asked? Is this idea about

time, emanated out of teachings of Shraddheya Swamiji referred by

him? Kindly clarify !

 

Bandook Singh

 

--------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

 

RESUBMITTED WITH SOME CORRECTIONS

 

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

You have asked -

 

1) Where is God, I have never seen Him?

Answer: Paramatma is not an individual that you or any one can

simply see. Existence - IS-ness (sattaa maatre) has been given the

name Paramatma. Otherwise there is no name for that Existence or all

Names are only Paramatma's (Supreme Consciousness's) Names.

 

2) Who has seen Him?

Answer: Paramatma has not been seen by anyone to date and in future

too Paramatma will not be ever seen. Shraddhey Swamiji has stated

that Paramatma can be believed, not known, nor seen. Beyond this

whatever anyone says, is questionable.

 

3) How is He?

Answer: How, where, when, what, why, such questions regarding

Parmatma are pointless. That which cannot be known, it cannot be

described at all.

 

4) What are you able to know " Time " (samay). This question has been

asked regarding time (whose beginning and end is unknown to us). It

is not a question about the watch or the interval. It is not only

you, but no one understands anything about " time " . They can say

nothing about time. Then why do you believe in time? Similarly

believe and accept Paramatma, it will be nothing but gain.

 

5) This same work is also performed by men through establishment of

laws. Just as all do not believe in the law, similarly, everyone

continues to speak and share for correcting one's foolishness, and

according to one's own convenience and conformance giving that

tattva a " form " . You too can speak about the same as well.

 

6) 'Existence' itself is 'Paramaatmaa'. Where can any supportive

arguments and evidence exist to establish the existence

of 'Existence' (named Paramaatmaa)? Then where is one to get the

support of this essential elemental belief 'ASTITTVA'? Reasoning-

deliberation-discussion (tark), proof-evidence (pramaan) can be of

that thing which we know. But Paramatma is not known and cannot ever

be known, then this reasoning and seeking evidence is not in

conformance to that reasoning.

 

7) Do you want Paramatma? or do you want an instruction manual or

an aphorism (sutra) to grab hold of Paramatma? Don't get caught up

in the vicious cycle of trying to find an instruction manual.

Leaving the search, become engaged in " Chup Saadhan " (Effortless

Awareness, Discipline of Silence). All quest, and inquiry will be

quietened, will become still.

 

Please kindly forgive any limitations in the expression / words

used.

 

Vineet Sarvottam

--------------------------

 

Hari Om

 

How to know what is beyond knowledge - is the moot question.

 

Logic/Rationale !! Proof !!! Sample !! Consider the following:

 

1 .Whatever we are able to see on this earth there is always a

creator /manufacturer - be it an allpin, pen, table, house, machine,

house, bed, watch, pen, paper, cloth or aircraft. Anything visible.

Then there should be creator of oceans, fire, air, mountains, earth,

Sun. Moon, stars also !

 

God is the creator of all. - CREATOR

 

2. Whatever thing which moves , be it car, aircraft, bicycle,

machine, computer, - there is always a controller thereof. Earth

also moves. Sun/Moon also move. Oceans remain in their limits. Sun

rises and sets perfectly without fail. There must be a controller of

them also!

 

God is the controller of all- CONTROLLER

 

Q BUT A HUMAN BEING ALSO CREATES ! WHAT IS SO IMPORTANT ABOUT IT ?

 

Ans A human being cannot " create " anything! It is only " nature "

which creates! You can only change the shape thereof. You can covert

gold into ornaments or iron into sword or utensil, but you can't

create gold or iron ! Only nature provides that. You can mix two or

more elements, formulate, change shape only. You can create . You

can " discover " only.

 

To be continued.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

-------------------------

Kindly read bertrand russel

Aranha Roy

 

---------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

Let us continue further on the subject and build on what sadhakas

have said.

Please, it may sound too intellectual, but it is not! It may humble

us!

Consider this: If we need to know/study any object, the object has

to exist in

the first place.

Even if we cannot know the object, we always know it exists. This

knowing of an

existence is prior to the knowledge of its nature, attributes,

function etc.

The Universe is a collection of objects, and can be said to be one

Existence

fundamentally. Individual objects within it are individual

existences localized

in space and time over which they exist, and change to other forms,

continuing

the existences.

When we say Universe we mean the Existence only. Even the word

Universe points

to the Existence first. How do we know such Existence itself? Only

by being

aware/cognizant of it, no other way. So the Existence is awareness

of Existence.

To see what is prior to such Existence, there has to be Awareness to

know

whether or not such Existence IS. Thus Awareness as Existence has to

be

beginningless! What is after the Existence, non-existence? no,

because to say

it, there has to be Awareness of non-existence. If there is

Awareness of

non-existence, IS-ness is established. Thus that which IS, the

Existence(without

division into many objects), is eternally free of time and space

containing all

objects(names/forms) in time and space by creating mind and endowing

it with

this ability in terms of thoughts/feelings. Gita in 2:16 says the

real never

ceases to be.

Such Awareful Existence has to be most Powerful, Intelligent,

Beautiful, full of

Love and Blissful which is our experience. Can we not call this God?

God means Such Intelligence as seen through those who serve, and love

unconditionally, those who fight for Dharma, the righteousness, and

those who

preach God's message!

Evil actions come out from not realizing the Truth of Eternal

Oneness, GOD!

Namaskar.............Pratap Bhatt

 

 

 

----------------------------

My answer is simply to a question which has been indirectly

asked: " Why can't I see Him? "

Because He is the Seer. You are what you are looking for. It is

subjective awareness.

The problem lies with the word 'God' because we then suppose a

distinct being like a tribal deity. No, it is Awareness, Supernal-

consciousness. This is the Vedantic way. Find out who you really

are, not how others see you, but from your subjective perspective,

and you'll find what you're looking for.

Rishi Handa

 

----------------------------

Wonderful expression by Pratap (Bhatt) Bhai

 

Further, a simple but serious exercise could help in understanding

this.....

Sarphodji, ask yourself " who is asking these questions? "

" Who wants to know God? " ....and wait for the answer....

see what comes from deep inside.....

 

but you have to have patience.....and keep asking/repeating the

questions....

In fact when you come across any such question, ask yourself

who is this who wants to know this, who is asking the question?....

 

and wait for the answers and experience that follows.......

Best wishes

Sushil Jain

 

--------------------------------

I am a believer of God. Like one person said in the e-mail below, I

went through that 'show me God to believe' stage when I was around

22 years - 26 years. I was God lover before and again lover now. I

do not really know and I do not think with my limited ablity I can

ever know. At the same time I am not blind follower too. I am open

to all these 6 questions coming from a logical person because I had

them before too and have them now too. Before - with doubt, now -

with wonder and amazement.

 

Knowing God is a long journey. I am on the journey, I beleive I am

gradually understanding the divine concept. I am understanding them

through others, specially our ancestors, Indian scriptures. There

are great concepts, ideas and explanations, there are trash also

amongst them. I am amazed at the power of those ideas and

explanations. They attempted volumes and spent 100s of years to find

God and explain the divinity. Can I really understand all this in my

life? I doubt, which is why its a journey for me. Can I see God? It

depends on. I feel divinity in some great people, in their ideas for

humanity - around me.

 

OK, when somebody asks the question 'show me God', what they are

asking us is 'show me Jesus, Show me Shiva or show me Vishnu'. I

doubt if any one has seen God in these forms. Unless the divine

power appears so for any. As for God in its full form - Can I

imagine the distance between the Earth and the nearest star (Alpha

Centauri - about 4 light years away). I cannot imagine that

distance - however logically I think. Can I see God then - which is

full of this universe? Impossible to imagine. Then how can I see

God, unless God willingly appears to me.

 

My dear friend, answers to those 6 questions need volumes of

explanation or simply experiecing of the divine power - depending on

where you stand on the quest for God. Its a journey, so please

discuss with people who have done the research (of your 6 questions

before) and experience the facts yourself. You still go through the

oscillations of belief and disbeliefs, but if your quest is sincere

you will start seeing light at the end of tunnel.

 

The above does not give straight answers to even one of your

questions. So thanks for your time, if at all you read through this

until now.

 

Venu Gopal

--------------------------------

 

 

PRIOR POSTING

I will come at these questions in a hard nosed manner, maybe I am

blessed as I too waved aside religions when younger but traveled full

circle to The Beloved, who I dearly love with my absolute being.

 

Question 6: There has to be some basis for his existence? What are

the logics which point towards the existence of God? From where to

pick the thread?

O.K. I would ask the skeptical young, (I will call him S. ), tell me

S. how did this Godless Universe begin? He may be a brilliant

physicist, good chance though, regardless S will start to talk about

the 'big bang', the question would then be, o.k. S. was there

substance, was there energy, and was there time, before the 'Event'?

I would ask S. also when this energy of the bang runs out what

then?, I would press the point home that the Great Indians

Traditions had a good explanation for all this many millennium

before the present time, and is probably a good guide for the

scientists. Oh! I would ask my young friend S. where did the laws of

physics come from? Apparently they are unique, the laws had to be

spot on for there to be an existance, that is what the physicist

seem to be saying.

 

I would ask S. one other thing, how is it possible for a spider to

build the perfect web according to its kind, without actually being

taught.

 

I would say to S., think about it, think about it, be tenacious, be

mercilessness, and be brave, let your desire for the truth take you

where it will, just hang in there! S. my friend I was once like you,

maybe one day we can really talk.

 

With Respect and Divine Love,

 

Mike Keenor

------------------------

 

Dear Sadak,

 

1. Where is God I have never seen Him?EXAMPLES Most children know

water is H2O (Hydrogen 2 parts and Oxygen 1 part) ask them them to

show hydrogen and oxygen showing water. Next show them Yogurt (Curd)

and ask them to show milk. Bigger children ask them to show planets.

Then tell then from Sanskrit slokas-- " God is apprameyam " that which

cannot be seen or known by senses as in case of above examples, as

God can be only known by Gyana (knowledge)

2. Who has seen Him? Like in case of scientist tell as per above

examples, so does Saints tell. Only a saint (Guru) can show God as

shown to Vivekananda by Swamy Ramakrishna

3. How is He? Slokas say: Aroopamai, Aksharamai. Roopam, Akandamai,

Viratroopamai Etc. No definite shape as HE appears in the form that

the devotee wants. HE is in sounds - Om, HE is like Sri Krishna/Sri

Rama Etc, Omnipresent (That cosmic energy filled in everything), HE

is in all shapes and forms.

4. If I dont know how do I accept? Contemplate. If you accept that

there is Galaxies then contemplate what energy is performing whole

universe, like in the case of any toy needs battery, car need petrol

or fuel, computer need electricity etc. Still do not want to accept-

Leave it.

 

Jai Sri Krishna

 

baiya sathyanarayan

-----------------------------

 

All questions arise out of answers. When one asks a question

either he needs a confirmation of the answer which he already has

or he is answering his own question. When somebody is asking a

question relating to God, first he has to explain what is in his

mind when he says or thinks of GOD.

 

Einstein said that the world is an optical illusion. We think and

feel that we are separated from the rest. This is an optical

illusion. We have no direct contact with the outside world. All

the sensorial data has to filter through our optical nerve and our

mind (delusion). So we have no idea of what is exactly out there.

When one realizes this he comes closer to God or some superior

knowledge.

 

To realise that we are the debris of God is the supreme

realisation.

 

The most mysterious thing holds the most important key. Death is

the most mysterious thing. Death holds the most important key.

 

When death happens. The soul/consciousness releases out of the

cage (body – which is always subjected to three dimensional view and

linear concept of time and space), one will realize or merge with

God

 

H. Subair

 

 

------------------------------

dear pratapji,thank u for giving us such wonderful knowledge.person

like you are really god's gift to us.

bhargav mehta

------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Re: Does God (Paramatma) Exist? Where is the Proof? What

is the logic ?

 

Through that supreme devotion he comes to know Me in reality, what

and how great I am; and thereby knowing Me in essence he forthwith

enters into My being.

 

Gita - Chapter 18 Sloka : 55

 

Sundara Raghavendran

---------------------------

 

Deaar Sadhakas, Namaste!

When someone says " where is God? I have never seen Him " , that person

has to know what God is that he expect to see, otherwise he cannot

ask the question. The question comes from the implicit assumption

that God is some imagination, ideas, knowledge, belief, etc. in the

mind and what I see out there is definitely not " God " .

So it is better to rephrase the question back to What God is first.

When that is understood, all questions by Tabalchiji will get

answered.

Consider the following dialogue:

Q: Do you have a doubt about your own existence?

A: No, I know I exist beyond a shadow of doubt. It is so obvious to

me!

Q: How do you know you exist?

A: I don't know HOW, but I am sure I DO!

Q: Do you need any help of another person, scripture, or some

logical explanation to confirm you do exist?

A: Definitely not, even if they say I don't exist, I know I do,

because it is experiential within me now. I don't even need any

sense organs-mind-intellect to tell me I exist!

 

So, it is self-evident existence, of " beingness " we all feel within

us, and by which we know what is knowable in this world as objects

of knowledge. This experience of Being Conscious is always with us,

never are we away from IT, not even in our sleep when body-mind-

world are all gone no one knows where! But I am always!

I just have to find out that ultimately this " I " is Impersonal and

is of the nature of Existence-Consciousness which we call God!

Personal God of Bhakta appears in this Impersonal!

Based on this, I can conclude that God is not a particular object

among many objects we know through sense organs, mind and intellect.

It is THE UNIQUE and objectless EXPERIENCE!

It is like our eyes who cannot see themselves and yet know their

existence beyond any shadow of doubt because SEEING takes place

automatically by just Being.

Once it is grasped, it can lead to God Realization!

Namaskar...

 

Pratap Bhatt

 

-------------------------------

 

My dear Sarphod,

There is a very beautiful story from ancient times that I have

heard from my guru. Once, a king called his minister and said, " I

want you to answer two questions.....otherwise your position will be

at stake.....first, can you show me God. Secondly, what is God

doing right now?

The minister was in anxiety. He went home, began searching

through various scriptures....wondering if he would have a job the

next day. His small son approached him, and noticing his father's

perplexity, inquired, " What troubles you, father? " The father

responded, " Oh, this is not something you would understand. " At

the child's persistence, the father finally explained. The small

child smiled, and simply said, " Father, that is so easy to

answer.....just tell the king that even a small child can answer

these inquiries, and I will then give him my responses " .

The father had no choice, as he didn't know the way to

respond. So, when the child came before the king, he requested the

king, " First, please have a pot of milk brought forth. " The king did

so. Then the child inquired, " Is there ghee in this milk? " The

king said, " Yes, it is there. " Then the child explained, " It is

there, but you cannot see it. Why can you not see the ghee? " The

king said, " There is a process by which the ghee will be brought

forth, of course, first one must churn the milk into butter, then

the butter is slowly heated until the ghee rises to the

surface......only after one patiently follows this process will he

see the ghee. " As the king was speaking, slowly realization came

into his heart, that similarly, one cannot demand to see God at this

moment....there is a process. One who's heart is not pure, who

does not have love and devotion, cannot see the Lord, but He will

certainly reveal Himself to those who are willing to accept the

process of " bringing forth the ghee " .

The child then said, " You are asking me what God is doing.

That is putting me in the postion of teacher, and you as disciple.

So, is it appropriate for you to be sitting on your throne, if you

are learning from me? " The wise King immediately pleced the child

on the throne, and sat in front of him, ready to try to understand

his next lesson. " This is what God is doing " ....he said. " He is

taking someone from a low position and putting him into a high

position, according to the results of his work, and taking someone

else from a high position and putting him into a low position. "

The king was very pleased with the child's answers, and rewarded him

and his father.

So, one may say, " I don't accept such simplistic

responses " .....well, then, such a person will never see the Lord,

unless and until he is fortunate enough to get the association of a

sadhu, by whose association one's heart melts. When one truly

comes into contact and develops some sukrti by contact with a God

consscious person, there is no material, anaytical way to explain

what happens. It is beyond our mundane intelligence, our ability to

analyze. So, simply pray for the youth you are hoping to guide,

and gradually perhaps the mercy of the sadhus will come to them.

It is not a mechanical process.

I hope my words have been gentle, encouraging, and helpful.....it

is truly a sadness which we all share as parents if our children

become somewhat agnostic or doubtful of the underestanding of the

Lord's presence, and the need for ancient, eternal tradition. We

can only pray to be the best examples of loving, patient friends for

them that we can possibly be.

 

respectfully,

Mahalaksmi Dasi

 

-------------------------------

Sarphod,

 

Read Paramahansa Yogananda's book " the Autoibgraphy of a Yogi "

published by Self Realization Fellowship, Los Angeles, CA.

 

Haley H. Haynes

--------------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

In this posting I would like to build on my previous post.

We as parents must deeply understand the truth of who we are, what

is the nature of world and God first. Then only we can explain to

our children. I would shy away to tell children that because it is

said in our scriptures, you have to believe in God being such and

such.

 

We can begin on the path of knowledge with the premise. That which

always IS irrespective of time, location or cause, is Truth. Truth,

thus, cannot be denied and has to be our continuous experience

always, not some states we experience that come and go, rather That

in which all states of experiences happen.

 

In the beginning it may sound like intellectual, but understanding

of that which always IS, has to be our real nature, or Reality of

whatever we all seem to experience dawns on us sooner rather than

later. What is Reality, then?

If we continue to inquire, we may find that whether I am in joyful,

or painful or sad or indifference or even in depressed

situations, " I am " always present and " knowingness " of these various

situations I am in is also always present too, which I never notice

due to my attachments/aversions to situations. These situations

eventually disappear but not " I " .

What is the nature of this I that we all say I when referring to

ourselves? Whatever it is, for sure it IS! This ISNESS-I is the most

certain experience and is Truth. Even if I see illusion, I or seeing

is the truth. This seeing then is communicated as I see an object(or

hear, taste, smell, touch, think, feel etc). I and seeing is

synanymous as consciousness.

 

Now extend this to outer world. Regardless of objects we perceive

out there, Being Conscious of them is the only truth of our

experience. Thus, alleged external world is nothing but ONE

Undivided/Whole Existence/Consciousness(Absolute) in our experience.

Mind is given to us to divide the Existence into different objects

for practical and Divine play. When we come to this understanding,

our attitude towards world changes to one of dispassion, devotion

and to serve it as God, in whatever ways we can. We see God

everywhere our eyes fall upon!

This is God relization.

Namaskar.............Pratap Bhatt

 

GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES:

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related to Gitaji shlokas. Therefore, responses which further

clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be posted.

2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to

substantiate your response.

3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the

extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas

4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting

sadhaka's time.

5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only.

6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other

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7. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone

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8. Please do not address the response to a particular individual

since the message is going to the entire group.

9. Due to the large readership, all responses may not be posted.

10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if content

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MODERATOR

Ram Ram

------------------------

 

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Posted
Posted

My question is that how to prove that there exists a super natural

power called " God " ? At least how to explain that. How to correlate

His existence with the character of the world? Children now a days

need more than belief to accept. Can there be any way vide which we

can establish that God exists. If some body says say :

1. Where is God I have never seen Him?

2. Who has seen Him?

3. How is He?

4. If I dont know how do I accept?

5. God is a term coined by elders to put moral shackles over us so

that we may indulge in goodness.

6. There has to be some basis for his existence? What are the logics

which point towards the existence of God? From where to pick the

thread?

 

Sarphod Tabalchi

 

 

NEW POSTING

 

Hare Krishna

 

Sarphodji,

 

Not only can Parmatma be an individual he can also be a fish

(Matsya-avatar), a tortoise (Kachchap-avatar), a pig (varaha-avatar),

a half lion-half man (Narsimha-avatar) and what not!!!

According to Gita, not only can a devotee see God but also know Him

and also enter into Him.

 

Arjuna said

O universal form, O thousand-armed Lord, I wish to see You in Your

four-armed form, with diadem on your head with club, wheel, conch and

lotus flower in Your hands. I long to see You in that form. (11.46)

 

Sanjaya said

The Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krishna, having spoken thus to

Arjuna, displayed His real four-armed form and at last showed His

two-armed form, thus encouraging the fearful Arjuna. (11.50)

 

Lord Krishna said:

My dear Arjuna, this form of Mine you are now seeing is very difficult

to behold. Even the demigods are ever seeking the opportunity to see

this form, which is so dear.

Neither by the study of Vedas, nor by penance, nor by charity, nor

even by rituals can I be seen in this form (with four-arms), as You

have seen Me.

O valiant Arjuna, through single-divided devotion, however, I can be

seen in this form (with four-arms), known in essence and even entered

into.

My dear Arjuna, he who performs all his duties for Me, depends on Me,

is devoted to Me, has no attachment, and is free from malice towards

all beings, reaches Me. (11.52-55)

 

Please give special attention to the last 2 verses. This will answer

your question of knowing and seeing God.

 

Yes, I have also read the same in Swamiji's book which your wife has

stated. I consider it to be true because I believe in Swamiji's words.

 

Hare Krishna

Varun P. Paprunia

------------------------------

 

Hari Om

 

No! Sarphodji. Those who want to learn should read carefully and

should learn also to be patient. All sadhaks upto now have given

excellent observations. I have also given you logics/pointers and will

continue to give you till you get satisfied. I agree with Luca that

there must be logics/rationale existing. It is another matter, as Mr

Vineet stated, that they are pointless once you proceed ahead. But

still questions are questions and your insistence , though, odd but

still should be respected. Your “ Begum Sahibaa†appears to have

directed herself to peace. I wish you understood the hidden affection

in the in the message of Mike Keenor to you. Here are more

logics/pointers to you:

 

3. In life, we always find a higher person than ourselves. In every

field a higher person than one is existing. See around you, you will

find this statement to be true. Even the President of USA can not say

“ I am the Highestâ€. Always a better /higher person than you is

existing. Now where does this “highness†end. If there is sense of

highness , then there must be an element which is “highestâ€. God is

that element. God is the HIGHEST.

 

4. You always need some “shelter†to survive. In the childhood you

need shelter of parents, teacher, etc. Then of education, ability,

wife, money, home, employers, what not. In old age, you need wife,

children, stick, doctor, medicines, health etc Sujects change but not

the need for shelter.. If there is consistent need for shelter , then

there must be an element existing of whose shelter is the ultimate

shelter. Is not it Mr Sarphod. ( You should argue on such in principle

points. Check up with you Begum Sahibaa.) ? If you are thirsty , there

must be water existing on the planet. Now when you need always some

shelter or other, then there must be an element which can be described

as “ Highest Shelter available†! God is “ PARAM ASHRAYA DATA††" Giver

of that shelter. If you take shelter of God, no other shelter will be

necessary,

 

5. We always want to be perfect. There is no doubt on that. But there

is also no doubt regarding the fact that we err. In fact “to err is

human†-this saying is prevalent on this planet from time immemorial.

Now if there is a desire to become perfect then there must exist an

element which is most perfect. Did you ever hear that there was a

difference of a fraction of a second even in timings of Sun rise and

Sun set? Is not everything moving to the perfection? Who can be more

perfect except God. God is the MOST PERFECT.

 

To be continued till you say “ I am satisfiedâ€.

 

As regards your observation that “Nature†also creates/controls-

answer is that whether you believe that nature has “knowledge� If

yes, then that nature is our God. In our religion ( I don’t know your

religion) SHAKTI is God also. But if according to you , the INERT

NATURE has no knowledge, then you have to accept God. Can inert nature

take care of so many souls, operate Law of Karma, provide food to so

many creatures? If Yes- I don’t mind calling that Nature to be God.

After all it is a matter only of “terminologyâ€. If no then you must

accept that IF THERE IS DESIRE / NEED IN YOU TO BE PERFECT OR TO TAKE

SHELTER OR TO SEEK HIGHNESS then there exists an element to fulfil

that desire. That element is called “ GOD/ PARAMATMA†. Logical ? Does

it appeal to your logic Mr Sarphod? Check up with your Begum Sahibaa

and come back. Your arguments shall exhaust, not our arguments- be

sure on this. After all you are on GT Site !

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

-------------------------------

 

Dear Sarphod:

 

Wonderful! I like your guts to put this question across!! I was

startled to start with and even alarmed as I contemplated …

thanks for triggering the turbulence from which proceeds the peace …

as always …

 

Son goes to father and asks, " Father, what is God? " Father

answered, " Whatever drives your life, whatever sustains your life

and whatever absorbs your life is verily God my child. Think about

It! " The father was wise enough not to instruct what God is. The son

promptly contemplates in what his father said and came back, " Father,

fear drives all the lives. Fear sustains all the lives. Fear absorbs

all the life. Therefore, fear should be the god. " Father

remarks, " Good job! Keep thinking. " The son not knowing whether his

revelation was conclusive or not continues to contemplate. Son comes

back to father and declares, " Father, desire drives all the lives,

desire sustains all the lives and desire absorbs all the lives.

Therefore, the desire should be the god. " Father remarks again, Good

job! Keep thinking. " The son does not feel the conclusive

appreciation regarding the god - is it fear or desire? He continues

to contemplate and realizes that, the happiness drives all the

lives. Happiness sustains all the lives. And, happiness absorbs all

the lives. Therefore happiness should be the god.

 

Now he does not go back to his father as he has already felt the

wisdom behind his father's remarks. God is not something that can be

taught to, or preached to or transferred to anybody. It is the

notion within ... it is the imagination within ... it is the

deliberation within ... it is the understanding within ... it is the

appreciation within ... IT IS THE PRESENCE WITHIN in its core. The

son, accepting the challenge from his father to use the body, senses

and mind blessed to him, continues to contemplate.

 

He has seen the driving force, sustenance strength and absorption

power in the fear, in the desire as well as in the happiness. He

sees that the three divinities of creation, sustenance,and

absorption transcend the boundaries of his existential fears,

desires and happiness altogether integrating the whole universe of

knowns as well as unknowns - manifested as well as unmanifested -

mitigating the differences that were once prominent amongst the

three phases of life - fear, desire and happiness.

 

Then starts another dilemma - who is the god amongst these three

divinites that seem to determine what life is? Driving Force or

Sustenance Strength or Absorption Power? Again, he approaches his

father, the wisdom established within to contemplate on the dilemma.

 

The driving force comes first to claim the unclaimed post of The

God. On ruthless examination, the driving force starts wondering

aloud that it itself should have been driven by something else. The

new driving force wonders the same and so on. The driving force digs

up an infinite legacy of its own kind beneath lost in the oblivion

of the past. It returns back in frustration not withstanding what

the driving force could really be.

 

The absorption power jumps in next to claim the still unclaimed post

of The God. Again, the wisdom starts the same gruelling scrutiny.

The power under sharp vigilence starts whithering away to wonder if

it absorbs everything there should be something to absorb itself.

The new absorbing power wonders the same way and so on. The

absorption power piles up an infinite heirarchy of its own kind

above lost in the oblivion of the future. It returns back in

frustration not withstanding what the absorption power could ever

be.

 

The empty throne is still awaiting to be filled. The sustenance

strength walks to claim the post in confidence. The valiant wisdom

does its job with no resistance subjecting the life sustenance

power in suspension of its examination. The sustencance strength

which provides strength to all the life around starts wondering what

is the source of its own strength and sustenance. The new source of

the strength resounds the same wonder what could be the source of

strength. The sustenance strength keeps jumping from on fold to

another all around the universe that is within its control to seek

itself folding itself in infinitude lost in the vast presence. It

returns back in frustration not withstanding what the sustenance

strength could ever be.

 

Seeing the crest-fallen champions of life not realizing their own

true nature around, the throne of The God starts fading into

silence. The wisdom starts wondering in itself. Is it not the

driving force as well as the sustenance strength as well as the

absorption power all the time all around? Suddenly, the demarkation

between the three divinities that was once so thick and opaque

starts giving away to reveal the force, strength and power of

creation, sustenance and absorption in itself and hence in every

thing that is perceieved ever.

 

The realized wisdom gets back and declares. Never ever ignore your

fears. Never ever ignore your desires. Never ever ignore your

happiness. Ever be with your fears, desires and happiness as you

are. Then you see the unison amongst your fears, desires and joys

and hence in all your emotions, relations and existence within as

well as around. Then you see all the boundaries separating your

notions dissolve in the very wisdom where you dwell upon. Being what

you are in spite of your apparent variances of life naturally

transcends all the barriers built by your cognition across

everything to reveal THE ONE everywhere and everywhence. Then the

very post of God does not appear to be real anymore which seemed the

most troublesome question to start with.

 

God remains evasive till you drift away from what you are in vain

searching whatever IT could be! Therefore, my dear friend, better

pause in your frenzy search and look around and look within … be

what you are. Then God is everything … not just a notion ... not

just a faith ... not just a doubt ... but, everything ... EVERYTHING

WITH NO EXCEPTION. If you remain what you are, IT is all-inclusive.

If you attempt to search for it, IT becomes all-exclusive. In other

words, IT is EVERYTHING in your presence; and IT is NOTHING in your

perception.

 

Respects.

 

Naga Narayana

--------------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

Let us address one aspect of Tabalchiji's issues with responses of

sadhakas received so far!

To be able to see God, one needs to recognize God upon seeing

anything, right? If one says I don't see God, one is looking for what

one " thinks " God is in whatever one is looking at. For God to be

" that " it will be very very limiting to God, because what we think is

so limited even if it is some grand image of God. That is not logical,

right?

Now when Swamiji says Goenkaji and Poddarji had darshana of God, what

does it mean?

It means the deep understanding of what God is and subsequent

realization that " my God, there is nothing else but only God IS in the

disguise of the Cosmos " that sees through that individual.

The individual's vision has changed entirely, where he/she saw objects

of the world before, now he sees only Divinity in the same forms. It

is our experience that what we believe out there, we tend to see only

that through our being closed minded. Similarly when we understand

God, this " Understanding " opens up the very mind who sees God

everywhere, individual is merely a channel God is using.

Other aspects of issues will see later....

Namaskar............Pratap Bhatt

 

------------------------

-Shree Hari-

 

Sarphodji,

 

Great! You are still questioning brilliant!

I have read the responses from our brethren, great beauty full of

divine love. But I will stick to the hared nosed roll,(look past it

dear friend).

If someone asked me to show her an oak tree, and I gave her an acorn,

what would she say I wonder? Of course the blueprint for the whole

tree is in the acorn, one also one wonders, did the first oak tree

have an acorn or the first acorn have an oak tree?

Question 6 if resolved is the platform upon which all the other

question can be answered it seems to me.

I can only tell you how I came to be touched be The Divine, that was

by my search into paradoxes, like the universe, like the acorn.

I once mentioned a man I met in unusual circumstance. It was about 3am

in a large air traffic control room, very few controllers in the room

at that time. I was waiting to get clearance to work on a console(to

do annual technical checks). There across the room was this

controller, He had his headset on,(with a long lead), he was

performing asanas, (within the restriction), " trying to stay awake? " I

asked, " no he boomed " , we started to talk. We had 'Much' in common, we

developed a dialog from then on , it was he who suggested I read

Bhagavad Gita,(I humbly suggest you do also).

He once said to me with his booming humorous voice, " Mike if people

could her us they would think we're 'Lunatics'.

What we had in common at the root, was our hunger for the truth, and

the courage, 'to ride the tiger " .

We were an unlikely pair from a world view, he was a Sri Lankan, me an

Anglo Celt, especially if one could here us talking, but we were

brothers of the spirit.

There is much I could talk of, but I must bow to the respected moderator.

 

With Respect and Divine Love,

 

Mike Keenor

-

Mr Sarphod ! So you are a male as well as married ! Very good Jee !

 

It is a good habit to act in accordance with advice your Begum. How

did she leave you alone? Do you have books of Swamiji Ramsukhdasji

Maharaj at your home? Your “Begum†had those books according to you.

Did you read them? Or your Begum only reads them? By the way did

you ever think about or did you ever have a desire to smell “ flower

of sky†? Why did you not think about flower of sky or desired to

smell it ? Reply. This is a question to you. Also reply if you always

believe only after “seeing†?

 

Let us know as to how you can get satisfied according to you?. What

methodology suits your mind.? How do you generally feel regarding

this world,mind, intellect, body etc etc ? How according to you such a

big world is operating ? Do you think there are some laws governing

this world? Keep also giving your observations , counter arguments on

EACH AND EVERY response which is given to you. Otherwise how will we

know whether the cure has taken place? Understood? You can consult

your Begum also before replying to my queries. Always tell us what

your Begum told you and what is your own observation. Why don’t you

tell your Begum also to become member and start Satsanga? Will that

not be better? What is her kind name, Jee?

 

Namaste Jee.

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

 

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

Another aspect of issues raised by Tabalchiji can be answered based on

what sadhakas already have echoed in their responses.

The most important thing is to know that God is not " something " ,

" somewhere " and " some times " . It is at the core of our being, an

intimate experience which is The Knowingness without anything known.

In otherwords, God cannot be known as another limited object,

nevertheless, is known as " knowingness " in us by virtue of just being.

For example, if someone were to ask you, can you show me Love, Peace,

Compassion, Beauty, Goodness etc " out there " ? You cann't! They are

experiences within us that we attribute to things/situations etc

outside which may have triggered them. Some philosopher rightly said

" From the beginning, not a thing is! " Please, please, see the truth of

this. We are connected to the world only through Being Conscious of

something or other which we conceptualize as subject

experiencer(mind-body), and objects experienced, both thought as

separate. Such division is not experiential.

Just as these experiences are not seen " out there " , but are truely

happening in our consciousness, God cannot be seen, as separate from

Consciousness.

Sun, for example, is nothing but the experience of light and heat,

conceptualized as " Sun " out there, for practical purpose. This is also

true for all apparant objects of the world.

God or Consciousness or Atman, are also such conceptual words of the

most intimate Wordless Experience! They are good pointers though!

When people engage in services to help others who are victims of

disasters, diseases, violence, wars, terrorism etc etc who motivates

their actions? Unconditional Love and Goodness of the heart! People

who help to preserve natural environment, forests, animals, etc etc

are also inspired by the same Love and Goodness!

Can we not call Unconditional Love and Goodness of the heart God?

Are those who bring such disasters to " apparant others " also God, if

all is God?

They are also, yes, but unfortunately " they " have not understood yet

that they are!

In God's world, only God exists playing " others " , so who does what to

whom?

Try doing evil acts after understanding deep within that all of us,

nature included, together, not individually, are God! One cannot!

 

Namaskar...........Pratap Bhatt

 

 

-

PRIOR POSITING

Dear Sadhak,

Excellent explanation has been given by sadhak Pratapji....Excellent!

If the parents donot know GOD how can they teach the kids?

Swamiji says if something is lying in darkness we can take a deepak

with us to see it but to see a deepak(lamp) we donot need another

deepak. Same way the objects of this whole worlds can be

seen/experienced through the " SELF " but to know this SELF we donot

need anything from the world( mind/body/intellect etc.) Only SELF

knows it SELF.

1. Where is God I have never seen Him?

He is not HE, He is " I " . When we can see/know who am I we can

see/know who is God.

Indeed, You alone know Yourself by Your own potencies, O origin of

all, Lord of all beings, God of gods, O Supreme Person, Lord of the

universe! Ch10:15

2. Who has seen Him?

All realized people have known HIM.Some claim that they have seen

HIM too.

Swami Vivekananda asked this question to everyone he met-Have you

seen God ? All answers negative except Ramkrishna Paramhansa.He said-

" Yes I have seen God as clearly as I am seeing you right now. "

Listening to this Narendra became his disciple.

3. How is He?

With a single fragment of Myself I pervade and support this entire

universe.Ch10:42

4. If I dont know how do I accept?

Then go ahead follow the path shown to us by Swamiji or any realized

soul, and know Him first, then accept.

5. God is a term coined by elders to put moral shackles over us so

that we may indulge in goodness.

What's wrong with that ? Accept God ,be righteous and be Arjuna or

donot accept Him, be Duryodhana - choice is yours.

6. There has to be some basis for his existence? What are the logics

which point towards the existence of God? From where to pick the

thread?

Start with meditation and Gita. Follow the path shown by Him in Gita-

Karma Yoga, Gyaan Yoga or Bhakti Yoga. Establish yr self in YOGA.....

 

No one can force any one to believe. Kids learn by imitation. Lead

yr own life according to Dharma,and kids will pick it up.Before

giving them tatva Gyaan(absolute knowledge),its better to sit with

them and watch Ramayana, Krishna, Mahabharata and let them learn by

the character of our Sagun Sakaar Bhagwaan(God with Forms). If they

can learn from Rama or Krishna, they will be on right path and will

get their realization at their own speed.

with lots of Love,

a sadhika

Sadhna Karigar

 

--------------------------------

Jai Hanuman

 

Oye What a question Jee!!. As good as the name of the

questioner!! " Sarphod " in Hindi means skull breaker ! " Tablachi "

means he who plays treble. Unique Jee !! Namaste Sarphodji !!

Welcome Jee ! There is music everywhere ! Who kept such a classic

name Jee ? Father? OK, pick the thread from father only.

 

How do I accept if I don't know? Accept just as you accepted some

one to be your father without knowing anything about him. Don't say

please- " that children now a days need more than belief to accept " .

That, I am afraid, is not as classic a statement as is even your

kind name. Fact is that children practice only belief and solid

belief. They are masters of belief - and teachers of entire humanity

on this subject of belief. Poor adults need proof. What kind of

proof was solicited by you in accepting some one to be your father

or some name to be mine or for that purpose by " the children of now

a days " - say son of Sarphod Tablachi, if any ??

 

Do you " know " as to who is your father and who is your mother? What

proof or rationale you can give to support your acceptance of Mr X

as your father?

 

You asked " from where to pick the thread " . I reply to you that you

pick the thread from yourself and your Dear Father. Come On !

 

Reply now! Argue !!

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

-------------------------------

Mr.Pratapji Bhatt has explained the existance of God beautifully.It

is very much in sync with Sri Sri Paramhansa Yogananda's explanation

in his books- " Autobiography of a yogi " and " Man's eternal quest "

which i have read. Also the story quoted by mahalaksmiji perfectly

describes how to know God.He is all knowing and yet unknown.He is

the Devine Intelligence that governs all that is known to us.God is

indescribebable.He can only be felt in the depths of a pure soul.

Ami Chhowala

 

--------------------------------

I still remain unsatisfied in this " divine " forum. How and why

Paramatma can not be an individual ? Is there nothing in your

scriptures like Gita which says that a devotee can also " see " God ?

My Begum Sahiba states that she read from a book of your Swami

Ramsukhdasji that Jai Dayal Goenka and Hanuman Poddar

had " darshanas " of God. Was His statement right or your reference

of good Swami is right? Why do you say that God can not be known?

How then the desire to know can be fulfilled? Whether I need an

instruction manual or not is not the focal point, in fact, to be

fair to me, answer to my questions in simple and convincing manner

is focal point! None of the " sadhaks " are convincing so far. I

asked from where to pick the thread? The responses are unclear and

incomplete.

 

Mr Mike ! Incomplete, was your answer. If you believe you were like

me in the past, then make me like you in the present. Is that not a

divine task? Is that not the role of this forum? Logic must exist.

Pointers must be there. Knowledge cant be beyond itself. What else

we are doing at present except meeting?

 

Mr Vyas - When Your so called " Nature " made oceans, Sun Moon etc

and when Nature is supreme then where is the question of God? Why

cant Fire/ Ocean/etc are called God ? If yes, then how God is

beyond knowledge? How God can not be seen as stated by Mr Pratap

Bhatt or by Vineet Sarvottam ?

 

" Sadhaks " - My Begum Sahibaa directed me to you people to satisfy

my knowledge quest ! I expected better as I am hungry for answers.

 

Sarphod Tabalchi

--------------------------------

Such a question can only arise from those who consider gross body as

real self and not the outer sheath of immortal " real self " which

contains the apriori knowledge.

 

They see God every day but do not recognise THEE. The Universal God

is Tri-Ani-Pada- three bodies in One i.e. gross, subtle and divine.

Since the entire Brahamad is God, His gross body consists of " Sun

and Moon His eyes, firmament his middle body and earth as His Feet "

and His Head is in Heaven. Thus entire Brahmand is God. Most of the

people who find gross body as real, want to imagine and visulaise

God as a human being forgetting that human beings who live on this

earth are " Thy " tiny living cells. We have several billions living

cells in our gross body, can any living cell of our body tell who we

are?

 

But those who find human soul as " real self " have no difficulty in

knowing God. His divine body is the Omniscient Supreme Soul

(Parmatma) and His subtle body " Mahadeva " is omnipotent Supreme

Spirit prevalent in all animate and inanimate life/things. His

spirit is found in Shuniya (cosmic void) of all kind of matter

consisting of atoms with unsuspected vitality. Because of His spirit

prevalent in shuniya, matter is not inert.

 

Since Man is born in the image of God, human beings are also tri-ani-

pada. Immortal soul resides in our divine body, spirit resides in

our subtle body and gross instruments in our material body. Those

who consider material gross body as the real self will always find

difficult to know formless and ineffable universal God.

 

Incidentally formeless and ineffable Universal God is Brahma- name

derived from Brahmand and other gods in human form are Iswaras.

Iswaras are not the gods of entire mankind.

with regards,

Prem Sabhlok

 

 

--------------------------------

Dear sarphod,

 

God is in nature,he can only be felt.His power is dwelling

everywhere in the nature in the form of cosmic vibratioins .If we

can tune our mind with the same frequency by way of sadhana we can

feel the godliness of the nature.How a sperm can create a body with

life is the proof of the supernatural power of the god. So far we

are only establishing the things which are existing, but we are

unable to establish about the source of the existence.

Our ultimate goal our of life is to reuntite ourselves with the

nature from where we have come.Nothing extra to be thought about

god. Living close to the nature is living near god. But the senses

attached to our body always act against our realisation

process.controling the senses is the biggest challenge of our life.

Let us teach our children about righteous way of living ,think

naturally and live naturally.

 

with regards

Ramana kothuri

 

-------------------------------

--------------------------------

The questions of Mr Sarphod Tabalchi are basic questions. I too

dont believe that the Supreme Power would not leave any pointers or

logics of His existence. From where to pick the thread ? I dont

agree with Mr Sarvottam that God can not be seen by His beloved

ones.. There has to be nothing which is beyond the powers of

Supreme. One principle came from Mike's narration and Mr Vyas'

message that before " big bang " too something existed or that if

there is creation then there must be a creator. But how that is

exclusive prorogative of God only ? Creativity is universal symptom

and authority. Spiders are also creators as per Mike Keenor. Please

elaborate with reference to Sarphod's questions. What about five

elements? Are they creators? Are not these elements playing the

transformation game? I think more serious and direct discussions are

warranted on the subject, not just belief stricken answers. First

the logics/rationales have to be exhausted.

 

Luca Brasi

----------------------------

 

Jai Kali Mata

 

What is meant by " No one knows about time!!! " Also, I am unclear as

to how this is relevant to the questions asked? Is this idea about

time, emanated out of teachings of Shraddheya Swamiji referred by

him? Kindly clarify !

 

Bandook Singh

 

--------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

 

RESUBMITTED WITH SOME CORRECTIONS

 

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

You have asked -

 

1) Where is God, I have never seen Him?

Answer: Paramatma is not an individual that you or any one can

simply see. Existence - IS-ness (sattaa maatre) has been given the

name Paramatma. Otherwise there is no name for that Existence or all

Names are only Paramatma's (Supreme Consciousness's) Names.

 

2) Who has seen Him?

Answer: Paramatma has not been seen by anyone to date and in future

too Paramatma will not be ever seen. Shraddhey Swamiji has stated

that Paramatma can be believed, not known, nor seen. Beyond this

whatever anyone says, is questionable.

 

3) How is He?

Answer: How, where, when, what, why, such questions regarding

Parmatma are pointless. That which cannot be known, it cannot be

described at all.

 

4) What are you able to know " Time " (samay). This question has been

asked regarding time (whose beginning and end is unknown to us). It

is not a question about the watch or the interval. It is not only

you, but no one understands anything about " time " . They can say

nothing about time. Then why do you believe in time? Similarly

believe and accept Paramatma, it will be nothing but gain.

 

5) This same work is also performed by men through establishment of

laws. Just as all do not believe in the law, similarly, everyone

continues to speak and share for correcting one's foolishness, and

according to one's own convenience and conformance giving that

tattva a " form " . You too can speak about the same as well.

 

6) 'Existence' itself is 'Paramaatmaa'. Where can any supportive

arguments and evidence exist to establish the existence

of 'Existence' (named Paramaatmaa)? Then where is one to get the

support of this essential elemental belief 'ASTITTVA'? Reasoning-

deliberation-discussion (tark), proof-evidence (pramaan) can be of

that thing which we know. But Paramatma is not known and cannot ever

be known, then this reasoning and seeking evidence is not in

conformance to that reasoning.

 

7) Do you want Paramatma? or do you want an instruction manual or

an aphorism (sutra) to grab hold of Paramatma? Don't get caught up

in the vicious cycle of trying to find an instruction manual.

Leaving the search, become engaged in " Chup Saadhan " (Effortless

Awareness, Discipline of Silence). All quest, and inquiry will be

quietened, will become still.

 

Please kindly forgive any limitations in the expression / words

used.

 

Vineet Sarvottam

--------------------------

 

Hari Om

 

How to know what is beyond knowledge - is the moot question.

 

Logic/Rationale !! Proof !!! Sample !! Consider the following:

 

1 .Whatever we are able to see on this earth there is always a

creator /manufacturer - be it an allpin, pen, table, house, machine,

house, bed, watch, pen, paper, cloth or aircraft. Anything visible.

Then there should be creator of oceans, fire, air, mountains, earth,

Sun. Moon, stars also !

 

God is the creator of all. - CREATOR

 

2. Whatever thing which moves , be it car, aircraft, bicycle,

machine, computer, - there is always a controller thereof. Earth

also moves. Sun/Moon also move. Oceans remain in their limits. Sun

rises and sets perfectly without fail. There must be a controller of

them also!

 

God is the controller of all- CONTROLLER

 

Q BUT A HUMAN BEING ALSO CREATES ! WHAT IS SO IMPORTANT ABOUT IT ?

 

Ans A human being cannot " create " anything! It is only " nature "

which creates! You can only change the shape thereof. You can covert

gold into ornaments or iron into sword or utensil, but you can't

create gold or iron ! Only nature provides that. You can mix two or

more elements, formulate, change shape only. You can create . You

can " discover " only.

 

To be continued.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

-------------------------

Kindly read bertrand russel

Aranha Roy

 

---------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

Let us continue further on the subject and build on what sadhakas

have said.

Please, it may sound too intellectual, but it is not! It may humble

us!

Consider this: If we need to know/study any object, the object has

to exist in

the first place.

Even if we cannot know the object, we always know it exists. This

knowing of an

existence is prior to the knowledge of its nature, attributes,

function etc.

The Universe is a collection of objects, and can be said to be one

Existence

fundamentally. Individual objects within it are individual

existences localized

in space and time over which they exist, and change to other forms,

continuing

the existences.

When we say Universe we mean the Existence only. Even the word

Universe points

to the Existence first. How do we know such Existence itself? Only

by being

aware/cognizant of it, no other way. So the Existence is awareness

of Existence.

To see what is prior to such Existence, there has to be Awareness to

know

whether or not such Existence IS. Thus Awareness as Existence has to

be

beginningless! What is after the Existence, non-existence? no,

because to say

it, there has to be Awareness of non-existence. If there is

Awareness of

non-existence, IS-ness is established. Thus that which IS, the

Existence(without

division into many objects), is eternally free of time and space

containing all

objects(names/forms) in time and space by creating mind and endowing

it with

this ability in terms of thoughts/feelings. Gita in 2:16 says the

real never

ceases to be.

Such Awareful Existence has to be most Powerful, Intelligent,

Beautiful, full of

Love and Blissful which is our experience. Can we not call this God?

God means Such Intelligence as seen through those who serve, and love

unconditionally, those who fight for Dharma, the righteousness, and

those who

preach God's message!

Evil actions come out from not realizing the Truth of Eternal

Oneness, GOD!

Namaskar.............Pratap Bhatt

 

 

 

----------------------------

My answer is simply to a question which has been indirectly

asked: " Why can't I see Him? "

Because He is the Seer. You are what you are looking for. It is

subjective awareness.

The problem lies with the word 'God' because we then suppose a

distinct being like a tribal deity. No, it is Awareness, Supernal-

consciousness. This is the Vedantic way. Find out who you really

are, not how others see you, but from your subjective perspective,

and you'll find what you're looking for.

Rishi Handa

 

----------------------------

Wonderful expression by Pratap (Bhatt) Bhai

 

Further, a simple but serious exercise could help in understanding

this.....

Sarphodji, ask yourself " who is asking these questions? "

" Who wants to know God? " ....and wait for the answer....

see what comes from deep inside.....

 

but you have to have patience.....and keep asking/repeating the

questions....

In fact when you come across any such question, ask yourself

who is this who wants to know this, who is asking the question?....

 

and wait for the answers and experience that follows.......

Best wishes

Sushil Jain

 

--------------------------------

I am a believer of God. Like one person said in the e-mail below, I

went through that 'show me God to believe' stage when I was around

22 years - 26 years. I was God lover before and again lover now. I

do not really know and I do not think with my limited ablity I can

ever know. At the same time I am not blind follower too. I am open

to all these 6 questions coming from a logical person because I had

them before too and have them now too. Before - with doubt, now -

with wonder and amazement.

 

Knowing God is a long journey. I am on the journey, I beleive I am

gradually understanding the divine concept. I am understanding them

through others, specially our ancestors, Indian scriptures. There

are great concepts, ideas and explanations, there are trash also

amongst them. I am amazed at the power of those ideas and

explanations. They attempted volumes and spent 100s of years to find

God and explain the divinity. Can I really understand all this in my

life? I doubt, which is why its a journey for me. Can I see God? It

depends on. I feel divinity in some great people, in their ideas for

humanity - around me.

 

OK, when somebody asks the question 'show me God', what they are

asking us is 'show me Jesus, Show me Shiva or show me Vishnu'. I

doubt if any one has seen God in these forms. Unless the divine

power appears so for any. As for God in its full form - Can I

imagine the distance between the Earth and the nearest star (Alpha

Centauri - about 4 light years away). I cannot imagine that

distance - however logically I think. Can I see God then - which is

full of this universe? Impossible to imagine. Then how can I see

God, unless God willingly appears to me.

 

My dear friend, answers to those 6 questions need volumes of

explanation or simply experiecing of the divine power - depending on

where you stand on the quest for God. Its a journey, so please

discuss with people who have done the research (of your 6 questions

before) and experience the facts yourself. You still go through the

oscillations of belief and disbeliefs, but if your quest is sincere

you will start seeing light at the end of tunnel.

 

The above does not give straight answers to even one of your

questions. So thanks for your time, if at all you read through this

until now.

 

Venu Gopal

--------------------------------

 

 

PRIOR POSTING

I will come at these questions in a hard nosed manner, maybe I am

blessed as I too waved aside religions when younger but traveled full

circle to The Beloved, who I dearly love with my absolute being.

 

Question 6: There has to be some basis for his existence? What are

the logics which point towards the existence of God? From where to

pick the thread?

O.K. I would ask the skeptical young, (I will call him S. ), tell me

S. how did this Godless Universe begin? He may be a brilliant

physicist, good chance though, regardless S will start to talk about

the 'big bang', the question would then be, o.k. S. was there

substance, was there energy, and was there time, before the 'Event'?

I would ask S. also when this energy of the bang runs out what

then?, I would press the point home that the Great Indians

Traditions had a good explanation for all this many millennium

before the present time, and is probably a good guide for the

scientists. Oh! I would ask my young friend S. where did the laws of

physics come from? Apparently they are unique, the laws had to be

spot on for there to be an existance, that is what the physicist

seem to be saying.

 

I would ask S. one other thing, how is it possible for a spider to

build the perfect web according to its kind, without actually being

taught.

 

I would say to S., think about it, think about it, be tenacious, be

mercilessness, and be brave, let your desire for the truth take you

where it will, just hang in there! S. my friend I was once like you,

maybe one day we can really talk.

 

With Respect and Divine Love,

 

Mike Keenor

------------------------

 

Dear Sadak,

 

1. Where is God I have never seen Him?EXAMPLES Most children know

water is H2O (Hydrogen 2 parts and Oxygen 1 part) ask them them to

show hydrogen and oxygen showing water. Next show them Yogurt (Curd)

and ask them to show milk. Bigger children ask them to show planets.

Then tell then from Sanskrit slokas-- " God is apprameyam " that which

cannot be seen or known by senses as in case of above examples, as

God can be only known by Gyana (knowledge)

2. Who has seen Him? Like in case of scientist tell as per above

examples, so does Saints tell. Only a saint (Guru) can show God as

shown to Vivekananda by Swamy Ramakrishna

3. How is He? Slokas say: Aroopamai, Aksharamai. Roopam, Akandamai,

Viratroopamai Etc. No definite shape as HE appears in the form that

the devotee wants. HE is in sounds - Om, HE is like Sri Krishna/Sri

Rama Etc, Omnipresent (That cosmic energy filled in everything), HE

is in all shapes and forms.

4. If I dont know how do I accept? Contemplate. If you accept that

there is Galaxies then contemplate what energy is performing whole

universe, like in the case of any toy needs battery, car need petrol

or fuel, computer need electricity etc. Still do not want to accept-

Leave it.

 

Jai Sri Krishna

 

baiya sathyanarayan

-----------------------------

 

All questions arise out of answers. When one asks a question

either he needs a confirmation of the answer which he already has

or he is answering his own question. When somebody is asking a

question relating to God, first he has to explain what is in his

mind when he says or thinks of GOD.

 

Einstein said that the world is an optical illusion. We think and

feel that we are separated from the rest. This is an optical

illusion. We have no direct contact with the outside world. All

the sensorial data has to filter through our optical nerve and our

mind (delusion). So we have no idea of what is exactly out there.

When one realizes this he comes closer to God or some superior

knowledge.

 

To realise that we are the debris of God is the supreme

realisation.

 

The most mysterious thing holds the most important key. Death is

the most mysterious thing. Death holds the most important key.

 

When death happens. The soul/consciousness releases out of the

cage (body � which is always subjected to three dimensional view and

linear concept of time and space), one will realize or merge with

God

 

H. Subair

 

 

------------------------------

dear pratapji,thank u for giving us such wonderful knowledge.person

like you are really god's gift to us.

bhargav mehta

------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Re: Does God (Paramatma) Exist? Where is the Proof? What

is the logic ?

 

Through that supreme devotion he comes to know Me in reality, what

and how great I am; and thereby knowing Me in essence he forthwith

enters into My being.

 

Gita - Chapter 18 Sloka : 55

 

Sundara Raghavendran

---------------------------

 

Deaar Sadhakas, Namaste!

When someone says " where is God? I have never seen Him " , that person

has to know what God is that he expect to see, otherwise he cannot

ask the question. The question comes from the implicit assumption

that God is some imagination, ideas, knowledge, belief, etc. in the

mind and what I see out there is definitely not " God " .

So it is better to rephrase the question back to What God is first.

When that is understood, all questions by Tabalchiji will get

answered.

Consider the following dialogue:

Q: Do you have a doubt about your own existence?

A: No, I know I exist beyond a shadow of doubt. It is so obvious to

me!

Q: How do you know you exist?

A: I don't know HOW, but I am sure I DO!

Q: Do you need any help of another person, scripture, or some

logical explanation to confirm you do exist?

A: Definitely not, even if they say I don't exist, I know I do,

because it is experiential within me now. I don't even need any

sense organs-mind-intellect to tell me I exist!

 

So, it is self-evident existence, of " beingness " we all feel within

us, and by which we know what is knowable in this world as objects

of knowledge. This experience of Being Conscious is always with us,

never are we away from IT, not even in our sleep when body-mind-

world are all gone no one knows where! But I am always!

I just have to find out that ultimately this " I " is Impersonal and

is of the nature of Existence-Consciousness which we call God!

Personal God of Bhakta appears in this Impersonal!

Based on this, I can conclude that God is not a particular object

among many objects we know through sense organs, mind and intellect.

It is THE UNIQUE and objectless EXPERIENCE!

It is like our eyes who cannot see themselves and yet know their

existence beyond any shadow of doubt because SEEING takes place

automatically by just Being.

Once it is grasped, it can lead to God Realization!

Namaskar...

 

Pratap Bhatt

 

-------------------------------

 

My dear Sarphod,

There is a very beautiful story from ancient times that I have

heard from my guru. Once, a king called his minister and said, " I

want you to answer two questions.....otherwise your position will be

at stake.....first, can you show me God. Secondly, what is God

doing right now?

The minister was in anxiety. He went home, began searching

through various scriptures....wondering if he would have a job the

next day. His small son approached him, and noticing his father's

perplexity, inquired, " What troubles you, father? " The father

responded, " Oh, this is not something you would understand. " At

the child's persistence, the father finally explained. The small

child smiled, and simply said, " Father, that is so easy to

answer.....just tell the king that even a small child can answer

these inquiries, and I will then give him my responses " .

The father had no choice, as he didn't know the way to

respond. So, when the child came before the king, he requested the

king, " First, please have a pot of milk brought forth. " The king did

so. Then the child inquired, " Is there ghee in this milk? " The

king said, " Yes, it is there. " Then the child explained, " It is

there, but you cannot see it. Why can you not see the ghee? " The

king said, " There is a process by which the ghee will be brought

forth, of course, first one must churn the milk into butter, then

the butter is slowly heated until the ghee rises to the

surface......only after one patiently follows this process will he

see the ghee. " As the king was speaking, slowly realization came

into his heart, that similarly, one cannot demand to see God at this

moment....there is a process. One who's heart is not pure, who

does not have love and devotion, cannot see the Lord, but He will

certainly reveal Himself to those who are willing to accept the

process of " bringing forth the ghee " .

The child then said, " You are asking me what God is doing.

That is putting me in the postion of teacher, and you as disciple.

So, is it appropriate for you to be sitting on your throne, if you

are learning from me? " The wise King immediately pleced the child

on the throne, and sat in front of him, ready to try to understand

his next lesson. " This is what God is doing " ....he said. " He is

taking someone from a low position and putting him into a high

position, according to the results of his work, and taking someone

else from a high position and putting him into a low position. "

The king was very pleased with the child's answers, and rewarded him

and his father.

So, one may say, " I don't accept such simplistic

responses " .....well, then, such a person will never see the Lord,

unless and until he is fortunate enough to get the association of a

sadhu, by whose association one's heart melts. When one truly

comes into contact and develops some sukrti by contact with a God

consscious person, there is no material, anaytical way to explain

what happens. It is beyond our mundane intelligence, our ability to

analyze. So, simply pray for the youth you are hoping to guide,

and gradually perhaps the mercy of the sadhus will come to them.

It is not a mechanical process.

I hope my words have been gentle, encouraging, and helpful.....it

is truly a sadness which we all share as parents if our children

become somewhat agnostic or doubtful of the underestanding of the

Lord's presence, and the need for ancient, eternal tradition. We

can only pray to be the best examples of loving, patient friends for

them that we can possibly be.

 

respectfully,

Mahalaksmi Dasi

 

-------------------------------

Sarphod,

 

Read Paramahansa Yogananda's book " the Autoibgraphy of a Yogi "

published by Self Realization Fellowship, Los Angeles, CA.

 

Haley H. Haynes

--------------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

In this posting I would like to build on my previous post.

We as parents must deeply understand the truth of who we are, what

is the nature of world and God first. Then only we can explain to

our children. I would shy away to tell children that because it is

said in our scriptures, you have to believe in God being such and

such.

 

We can begin on the path of knowledge with the premise. That which

always IS irrespective of time, location or cause, is Truth. Truth,

thus, cannot be denied and has to be our continuous experience

always, not some states we experience that come and go, rather That

in which all states of experiences happen.

 

In the beginning it may sound like intellectual, but understanding

of that which always IS, has to be our real nature, or Reality of

whatever we all seem to experience dawns on us sooner rather than

later. What is Reality, then?

If we continue to inquire, we may find that whether I am in joyful,

or painful or sad or indifference or even in depressed

situations, " I am " always present and " knowingness " of these various

situations I am in is also always present too, which I never notice

due to my attachments/aversions to situations. These situations

eventually disappear but not " I " .

What is the nature of this I that we all say I when referring to

ourselves? Whatever it is, for sure it IS! This ISNESS-I is the most

certain experience and is Truth. Even if I see illusion, I or seeing

is the truth. This seeing then is communicated as I see an object(or

hear, taste, smell, touch, think, feel etc). I and seeing is

synanymous as consciousness.

 

Now extend this to outer world. Regardless of objects we perceive

out there, Being Conscious of them is the only truth of our

experience. Thus, alleged external world is nothing but ONE

Undivided/Whole Existence/Consciousness(Absolute) in our experience.

Mind is given to us to divide the Existence into different objects

for practical and Divine play. When we come to this understanding,

our attitude towards world changes to one of dispassion, devotion

and to serve it as God, in whatever ways we can. We see God

everywhere our eyes fall upon!

This is God relization.

Namaskar.............Pratap Bhatt

 

GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES:

1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify their doubts

related to Gitaji shlokas. Therefore, responses which further

clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be posted.

2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to

substantiate your response.

3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the

extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas

4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting

sadhaka's time.

5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only.

6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other

organizations.

7. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone

number, address etc.

8. Please do not address the response to a particular individual

since the message is going to the entire group.

9. Due to the large readership, all responses may not be posted.

10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if content

is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the group.

11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth,

westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use to Sanskrit

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wherever possible.

 

MODERATOR

Ram Ram

------------------------

 

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Posted
Posted

My question is that how to prove that there exists a super natural

power called " God " ? At least how to explain that. How to correlate

His existence with the character of the world? Children now a days

need more than belief to accept. Can there be any way vide which we

can establish that God exists. If some body says say :

1. Where is God I have never seen Him?

2. Who has seen Him?

3. How is He?

4. If I dont know how do I accept?

5. God is a term coined by elders to put moral shackles over us so

that we may indulge in goodness.

6. There has to be some basis for his existence? What are the logics

which point towards the existence of God? From where to pick the

thread?

 

Sarphod Tabalchi

 

 

NEW POSTING

 

Hari Om

 

If sadhaks can concentrate on giving short pointers / rationale

which establishes the existence of Supreme Power it will help all

in being definitive, have reference material and it will also

strengthen faith. Ego, Intellect and Mind don't let you agree that

easily. And who knows who may need in the coming turbulent era of

Kaliyug, that is lacking in faith and belief. Let us get united.

 

From discourses of Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj (Taat Shree), whom I

have solely relied on for a number of years -

 

Every human being wants the following:

 

1) To " live for ever " . This is desire for SAT (existence). Fear of

death is the indicator of that desire.

2) To know every thing. No one wants to be unknowlegeable. This is

desire for CHIT (Knowledge).

3) To be happy. No one wants to be unhappy. This is desire for

ANANDA.

 

Any doubt Mr Sarphod? Now if there is a desire then the element to

fulfill that desire must also be there. There must be some one /

some element which enables you to " live for ever " , to be all knowing

and to be ever blissful. Had such an element not existed, we would

not have had the desire for the same.

 

Paramatma is SAT-CHIT-ANANDA.(Sachchidananda)

 

Raam! Raam!! Raam!!!

 

To be continued.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

------------------------------

 

Dear Tabalchi ji,

 

According to J. Krishnamurti " modern so called educated " people want

a little bit of intellectual amusement and therefore they indulge in

meaningless discussions about God and such matters. God cannot be

discussed in this manner, because That Absolute Truth (give

It/Her/Him any name) is beyond description.

Your all the six questions are like the enquiries of a " full

stomach " tourist without an iota of appetite going through the menu,

or reading it aloud with his co-friends. If you are really thirsty

you will not indulge in such childish questions about water, but

will try your best to drink it.

 

I suggest you read Uncommon Wisdom and other books by Dr Capra (a

physic scientist) who has quoted from our Sanskrit literature about

God, or read A Brief History of Time by Hawking Stephens (well known

expert on dark hole and universe) to know the concept of time and

space. At least do go through some writings by Nobel laureate Dr

Edington (a scientist). Only then, you can be a little serious about

exploring the great Absolute Truth. Become " jyan-vijyan-triptah " and

only then we can walk together on this spiritual quest.

 

Regards,

Suresh C. Sharma

------------------------

 

Sir,

You are asking the oldest question ever being asked. See around

you, a sperm has made you upto approximately 6 feet. Who designed

this project and process. Your father and mother only are tools.

Inquire within and get the answer.

 

surender syal

--------------------------------

 

Mitro,

Why has this God become famous as " HE " why not " she " or " IT "

or " Nothing " ? Today's generation will not believe in gibberish

bakwaas . The paradox is every religion, every saint says that God

is ONE. But even within Hindus philosophy we see thousands of gods

(many names and forms). If God is One then why all the differences

and the fights? How come? Ramchander Homma

 

------------------------------

I agree with Luca Brasi that I should be fairly replied. I have

asked a lot of questions. I want proof/logic and I want to know How

is that Supreme. I want sample. I want rationale. My Begum Saahibaa

also told me that I am head breaker like your Shashikaljee told me.

But I never agreed with her so far. I never admitted this version.

I am not head or skull breaker. My name suggests that I am mind

fixer. Any way how the name matters? I am what I am. I accept my

parents because even if I dont remember my birth, they remember

that. They know that I am their child. I can see them. I can feel

them. I can experience them. I can recognise them. That is why they

are my parents. Where is God? How can I accept God on the grounds

that since I did not know my parents at the time of birth and I

accepted hence I should accept God also. Children are children. They

dont understand. But I am adult. I understand. My Begum Sahibaa

could not satisfy me and hence she asked me to get in touch with you

She said you will satisfy me.I checked with her that I am not

satisfied even after, because I have MOST SOLID arguments, then

what? Even my father deserted me because he could not satisfy me.

She said such situation will not arise. If I cant see , I cant

accept. Prove to me how one can accept without seeing or feeling or

experiencing or logic or rationale or basis. At least I should feel

or experience. Even if my parents were dead at the time of birth,

still I would accept that because how can I come without them on

this earth. What is your answer? Pratap or Vineet or Mike or

Shashikala. My Begum Sahibaa said few things regarding observations

of Vineet also. Please reply- Sadhaks of this self

proclaimed " Divine " site. Dont go by my name. Even my Begum

Saahibaa complains regarding my name. What can I do regarding my

name Jee?

 

Sarphod Tabalchi

 

 

PRIOR POSTING

Hare Krishna

 

Sarphodji,

 

Not only can Parmatma be an individual he can also be a fish

(Matsya-avatar), a tortoise (Kachchap-avatar), a pig (varaha-avatar),

a half lion-half man (Narsimha-avatar) and what not!!!

According to Gita, not only can a devotee see God but also know Him

and also enter into Him.

 

Arjuna said

O universal form, O thousand-armed Lord, I wish to see You in Your

four-armed form, with diadem on your head with club, wheel, conch and

lotus flower in Your hands. I long to see You in that form. (11.46)

 

Sanjaya said

The Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krishna, having spoken thus to

Arjuna, displayed His real four-armed form and at last showed His

two-armed form, thus encouraging the fearful Arjuna. (11.50)

 

Lord Krishna said:

My dear Arjuna, this form of Mine you are now seeing is very

difficult

to behold. Even the demigods are ever seeking the opportunity to see

this form, which is so dear.

Neither by the study of Vedas, nor by penance, nor by charity, nor

even by rituals can I be seen in this form (with four-arms), as You

have seen Me.

O valiant Arjuna, through single-divided devotion, however, I can be

seen in this form (with four-arms), known in essence and even entered

into.

My dear Arjuna, he who performs all his duties for Me, depends on Me,

is devoted to Me, has no attachment, and is free from malice towards

all beings, reaches Me. (11.52-55)

 

Please give special attention to the last 2 verses. This will answer

your question of knowing and seeing God.

 

Yes, I have also read the same in Swamiji's book which your wife has

stated. I consider it to be true because I believe in Swamiji's

words.

 

Hare Krishna

Varun P. Paprunia

------------------------------

 

Hari Om

 

No! Sarphodji. Those who want to learn should read carefully and

should learn also to be patient. All sadhaks upto now have given

excellent observations. I have also given you logics/pointers and

will

continue to give you till you get satisfied. I agree with Luca that

there must be logics/rationale existing. It is another matter, as Mr

Vineet stated, that they are pointless once you proceed ahead. But

still questions are questions and your insistence , though, odd but

still should be respected. Your " Begum Sahibaa " appears to have

directed herself to peace. I wish you understood the hidden affection

in the in the message of Mike Keenor to you. Here are more

logics/pointers to you:

 

3. In life, we always find a higher person than ourselves. In every

field a higher person than one is existing. See around you, you will

find this statement to be true. Even the President of USA can not say

" I am the Highest " . Always a better /higher person than you is

existing. Now where does this " highness " end. If there is sense of

highness , then there must be an element which is " highest " . God is

that element. God is the HIGHEST.

 

4. You always need some " shelter " to survive. In the childhood you

need shelter of parents, teacher, etc. Then of education, ability,

wife, money, home, employers, what not. In old age, you need wife,

children, stick, doctor, medicines, health etc Sujects change but not

the need for shelter.. If there is consistent need for shelter , then

there must be an element existing of whose shelter is the ultimate

shelter. Is not it Mr Sarphod. ( You should argue on such in

principle

points. Check up with you Begum Sahibaa.) ? If you are thirsty ,

there

must be water existing on the planet. Now when you need always some

shelter or other, then there must be an element which can be

described

as " Highest Shelter available " ! God is " PARAM ASHRAYA DATA " Giver

of that shelter. If you take shelter of God, no other shelter will be

necessary,

 

5. We always want to be perfect. There is no doubt on that. But there

is also no doubt regarding the fact that we err. In fact " to err is

human " -this saying is prevalent on this planet from time immemorial.

Now if there is a desire to become perfect then there must exist an

element which is most perfect. Did you ever hear that there was a

difference of a fraction of a second even in timings of Sun rise and

Sun set? Is not everything moving to the perfection? Who can be more

perfect except God. God is the MOST PERFECT.

 

To be continued till you say " I am satisfied "

 

As regards your observation that " Nature " also creates/controls-

answer is that whether you believe that nature has " knowledge " ? If

yes, then that nature is our God. In our religion ( I don't know your

religion) SHAKTI is God also. But if according to you , the INERT

NATURE has no knowledge, then you have to accept God. Can inert

nature

take care of so many souls, operate Law of Karma, provide food to so

many creatures? If Yes- I don't mind calling that Nature to be God.

After all it is a matter only of " terminology " . If no then you must

accept that IF THERE IS DESIRE / NEED IN YOU TO BE PERFECT OR TO TAKE

SHELTER OR TO SEEK HIGHNESS then there exists an element to fulfil

that desire. That element is called " GOD/ PARAMATMA " . Logical ?

Does

it appeal to your logic Mr Sarphod? Check up with your Begum Sahibaa

and come back. Your arguments shall exhaust, not our arguments- be

sure on this. After all you are on GT Site !

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

-------------------------------

 

Dear Sarphod:

 

Wonderful! I like your guts to put this question across!! I was

startled to start with and even alarmed as I contemplated " thanks

for triggering the turbulence from which proceeds the peace as

always. "

 

Son goes to father and asks, " Father, what is God? " Father

answered, " Whatever drives your life, whatever sustains your life

and whatever absorbs your life is verily God my child. Think about

It! " The father was wise enough not to instruct what God is. The son

promptly contemplates in what his father said and came back, " Father,

fear drives all the lives. Fear sustains all the lives. Fear absorbs

all the life. Therefore, fear should be the god. " Father

remarks, " Good job! Keep thinking. " The son not knowing whether his

revelation was conclusive or not continues to contemplate. Son comes

back to father and declares, " Father, desire drives all the lives,

desire sustains all the lives and desire absorbs all the lives.

Therefore, the desire should be the god. " Father remarks again, Good

job! Keep thinking. " The son does not feel the conclusive

appreciation regarding the god - is it fear or desire? He continues

to contemplate and realizes that, the happiness drives all the

lives. Happiness sustains all the lives. And, happiness absorbs all

the lives. Therefore happiness should be the god.

 

Now he does not go back to his father as he has already felt the

wisdom behind his father's remarks. God is not something that can be

taught to, or preached to or transferred to anybody. It is the

notion within ... it is the imagination within ... it is the

deliberation within ... it is the understanding within ... it is the

appreciation within ... IT IS THE PRESENCE WITHIN in its core. The

son, accepting the challenge from his father to use the body, senses

and mind blessed to him, continues to contemplate.

 

He has seen the driving force, sustenance strength and absorption

power in the fear, in the desire as well as in the happiness. He

sees that the three divinities of creation, sustenance,and

absorption transcend the boundaries of his existential fears,

desires and happiness altogether integrating the whole universe of

knowns as well as unknowns - manifested as well as unmanifested -

mitigating the differences that were once prominent amongst the

three phases of life - fear, desire and happiness.

 

Then starts another dilemma - who is the god amongst these three

divinites that seem to determine what life is? Driving Force or

Sustenance Strength or Absorption Power? Again, he approaches his

father, the wisdom established within to contemplate on the dilemma.

 

The driving force comes first to claim the unclaimed post of The

God. On ruthless examination, the driving force starts wondering

aloud that it itself should have been driven by something else. The

new driving force wonders the same and so on. The driving force digs

up an infinite legacy of its own kind beneath lost in the oblivion

of the past. It returns back in frustration not withstanding what

the driving force could really be.

 

The absorption power jumps in next to claim the still unclaimed post

of The God. Again, the wisdom starts the same gruelling scrutiny.

The power under sharp vigilence starts whithering away to wonder if

it absorbs everything there should be something to absorb itself.

The new absorbing power wonders the same way and so on. The

absorption power piles up an infinite heirarchy of its own kind

above lost in the oblivion of the future. It returns back in

frustration not withstanding what the absorption power could ever

be.

 

The empty throne is still awaiting to be filled. The sustenance

strength walks to claim the post in confidence. The valiant wisdom

does its job with no resistance subjecting the life sustenance

power in suspension of its examination. The sustencance strength

which provides strength to all the life around starts wondering what

is the source of its own strength and sustenance. The new source of

the strength resounds the same wonder what could be the source of

strength. The sustenance strength keeps jumping from on fold to

another all around the universe that is within its control to seek

itself folding itself in infinitude lost in the vast presence. It

returns back in frustration not withstanding what the sustenance

strength could ever be.

 

Seeing the crest-fallen champions of life not realizing their own

true nature around, the throne of The God starts fading into

silence. The wisdom starts wondering in itself. Is it not the

driving force as well as the sustenance strength as well as the

absorption power all the time all around? Suddenly, the demarkation

between the three divinities that was once so thick and opaque

starts giving away to reveal the force, strength and power of

creation, sustenance and absorption in itself and hence in every

thing that is perceieved ever.

 

The realized wisdom gets back and declares. Never ever ignore your

fears. Never ever ignore your desires. Never ever ignore your

happiness. Ever be with your fears, desires and happiness as you

are. Then you see the unison amongst your fears, desires and joys

and hence in all your emotions, relations and existence within as

well as around. Then you see all the boundaries separating your

notions dissolve in the very wisdom where you dwell upon. Being what

you are in spite of your apparent variances of life naturally

transcends all the barriers built by your cognition across

everything to reveal THE ONE everywhere and everywhence. Then the

very post of God does not appear to be real anymore which seemed the

most troublesome question to start with.

 

God remains evasive till you drift away from what you are in vain

searching whatever IT could be! Therefore, my dear friend, better

pause in your frenzy search and look around and look within … be

what you are. Then God is everything … not just a notion ... not

just a faith ... not just a doubt ... but, everything ... EVERYTHING

WITH NO EXCEPTION. If you remain what you are, IT is all-inclusive.

If you attempt to search for it, IT becomes all-exclusive. In other

words, IT is EVERYTHING in your presence; and IT is NOTHING in your

perception.

 

Respects.

 

Naga Narayana

--------------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

Let us address one aspect of Tabalchiji's issues with responses of

sadhakas received so far!

To be able to see God, one needs to recognize God upon seeing

anything, right? If one says I don't see God, one is looking for what

one " thinks " God is in whatever one is looking at. For God to be

" that " it will be very very limiting to God, because what we think is

so limited even if it is some grand image of God. That is not

logical, right?

Now when Swamiji says Goenkaji and Poddarji had darshana of God, what

does it mean?

It means the deep understanding of what God is and subsequent

realization that " my God, there is nothing else but only God IS in

the disguise of the Cosmos " that sees through that individual.

The individual's vision has changed entirely, where he/she saw

objects of the world before, now he sees only Divinity in the same

forms. It is our experience that what we believe out there, we tend

to see only that through our being closed minded. Similarly when we

understand God, this " Understanding " opens up the very mind who sees

God everywhere, individual is merely a channel God is using.

Other aspects of issues will see later....

Namaskar............Pratap Bhatt

 

------------------------

-Shree Hari-

 

Sarphodji,

 

Great! You are still questioning brilliant!

I have read the responses from our brethren, great beauty full of

divine love. But I will stick to the hared nosed roll,(look past it

dear friend).

If someone asked me to show her an oak tree, and I gave her an acorn,

what would she say I wonder? Of course the blueprint for the whole

tree is in the acorn, one also one wonders, did the first oak tree

have an acorn or the first acorn have an oak tree?

Question 6 if resolved is the platform upon which all the other

question can be answered it seems to me.

I can only tell you how I came to be touched be The Divine, that was

by my search into paradoxes, like the universe, like the acorn.

I once mentioned a man I met in unusual circumstance. It was about

3am

in a large air traffic control room, very few controllers in the room

at that time. I was waiting to get clearance to work on a console(to

do annual technical checks). There across the room was this

controller, He had his headset on,(with a long lead), he was

performing asanas, (within the restriction), " trying to stay awake? "

I

asked, " no he boomed " , we started to talk. We had 'Much' in common,

we

developed a dialog from then on , it was he who suggested I read

Bhagavad Gita,(I humbly suggest you do also).

He once said to me with his booming humorous voice, " Mike if people

could her us they would think we're 'Lunatics'.

What we had in common at the root, was our hunger for the truth, and

the courage, 'to ride the tiger " .

We were an unlikely pair from a world view, he was a Sri Lankan, me

an

Anglo Celt, especially if one could here us talking, but we were

brothers of the spirit.

There is much I could talk of, but I must bow to the respected

moderator.

 

With Respect and Divine Love,

 

Mike Keenor

-

Mr Sarphod ! So you are a male as well as married ! Very good Jee !

 

It is a good habit to act in accordance with advice your Begum. How

did she leave you alone? Do you have books of Swamiji Ramsukhdasji

Maharaj at your home? Your “Begum†had those books according to

you.

Did you read them? Or your Begum only reads them? By the way did

you ever think about or did you ever have a desire to smell “

flower

of sky†? Why did you not think about flower of sky or desired to

smell it ? Reply. This is a question to you. Also reply if you always

believe only after “seeing†?

 

Let us know as to how you can get satisfied according to you?. What

methodology suits your mind.? How do you generally feel regarding

this world,mind, intellect, body etc etc ? How according to you such

a

big world is operating ? Do you think there are some laws governing

this world? Keep also giving your observations , counter arguments on

EACH AND EVERY response which is given to you. Otherwise how will we

know whether the cure has taken place? Understood? You can consult

your Begum also before replying to my queries. Always tell us what

your Begum told you and what is your own observation. Why don’t you

tell your Begum also to become member and start Satsanga? Will that

not be better? What is her kind name, Jee?

 

Namaste Jee.

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

 

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

Another aspect of issues raised by Tabalchiji can be answered based

on

what sadhakas already have echoed in their responses.

The most important thing is to know that God is not " something " ,

" somewhere " and " some times " . It is at the core of our being, an

intimate experience which is The Knowingness without anything known.

In otherwords, God cannot be known as another limited object,

nevertheless, is known as " knowingness " in us by virtue of just

being.

For example, if someone were to ask you, can you show me Love, Peace,

Compassion, Beauty, Goodness etc " out there " ? You cann't! They are

experiences within us that we attribute to things/situations etc

outside which may have triggered them. Some philosopher rightly said

" From the beginning, not a thing is! " Please, please, see the truth

of

this. We are connected to the world only through Being Conscious of

something or other which we conceptualize as subject

experiencer(mind-body), and objects experienced, both thought as

separate. Such division is not experiential.

Just as these experiences are not seen " out there " , but are truely

happening in our consciousness, God cannot be seen, as separate from

Consciousness.

Sun, for example, is nothing but the experience of light and heat,

conceptualized as " Sun " out there, for practical purpose. This is

also

true for all apparant objects of the world.

God or Consciousness or Atman, are also such conceptual words of the

most intimate Wordless Experience! They are good pointers though!

When people engage in services to help others who are victims of

disasters, diseases, violence, wars, terrorism etc etc who motivates

their actions? Unconditional Love and Goodness of the heart! People

who help to preserve natural environment, forests, animals, etc etc

are also inspired by the same Love and Goodness!

Can we not call Unconditional Love and Goodness of the heart God?

Are those who bring such disasters to " apparant others " also God, if

all is God?

They are also, yes, but unfortunately " they " have not understood yet

that they are!

In God's world, only God exists playing " others " , so who does what to

whom?

Try doing evil acts after understanding deep within that all of us,

nature included, together, not individually, are God! One cannot!

 

Namaskar...........Pratap Bhatt

 

 

-

PRIOR POSITING

Dear Sadhak,

Excellent explanation has been given by sadhak Pratapji....Excellent!

If the parents donot know GOD how can they teach the kids?

Swamiji says if something is lying in darkness we can take a deepak

with us to see it but to see a deepak(lamp) we donot need another

deepak. Same way the objects of this whole worlds can be

seen/experienced through the " SELF " but to know this SELF we donot

need anything from the world( mind/body/intellect etc.) Only SELF

knows it SELF.

1. Where is God I have never seen Him?

He is not HE, He is " I " . When we can see/know who am I we can

see/know who is God.

Indeed, You alone know Yourself by Your own potencies, O origin of

all, Lord of all beings, God of gods, O Supreme Person, Lord of the

universe! Ch10:15

2. Who has seen Him?

All realized people have known HIM.Some claim that they have seen

HIM too.

Swami Vivekananda asked this question to everyone he met-Have you

seen God ? All answers negative except Ramkrishna Paramhansa.He said-

" Yes I have seen God as clearly as I am seeing you right now. "

Listening to this Narendra became his disciple.

3. How is He?

With a single fragment of Myself I pervade and support this entire

universe.Ch10:42

4. If I dont know how do I accept?

Then go ahead follow the path shown to us by Swamiji or any realized

soul, and know Him first, then accept.

5. God is a term coined by elders to put moral shackles over us so

that we may indulge in goodness.

What's wrong with that ? Accept God ,be righteous and be Arjuna or

donot accept Him, be Duryodhana - choice is yours.

6. There has to be some basis for his existence? What are the logics

which point towards the existence of God? From where to pick the

thread?

Start with meditation and Gita. Follow the path shown by Him in Gita-

Karma Yoga, Gyaan Yoga or Bhakti Yoga. Establish yr self in YOGA.....

 

No one can force any one to believe. Kids learn by imitation. Lead

yr own life according to Dharma,and kids will pick it up.Before

giving them tatva Gyaan(absolute knowledge),its better to sit with

them and watch Ramayana, Krishna, Mahabharata and let them learn by

the character of our Sagun Sakaar Bhagwaan(God with Forms). If they

can learn from Rama or Krishna, they will be on right path and will

get their realization at their own speed.

with lots of Love,

a sadhika

Sadhna Karigar

 

--------------------------------

Jai Hanuman

 

Oye What a question Jee!!. As good as the name of the

questioner!! " Sarphod " in Hindi means skull breaker ! " Tablachi "

means he who plays treble. Unique Jee !! Namaste Sarphodji !!

Welcome Jee ! There is music everywhere ! Who kept such a classic

name Jee ? Father? OK, pick the thread from father only.

 

How do I accept if I don't know? Accept just as you accepted some

one to be your father without knowing anything about him. Don't say

please- " that children now a days need more than belief to accept " .

That, I am afraid, is not as classic a statement as is even your

kind name. Fact is that children practice only belief and solid

belief. They are masters of belief - and teachers of entire humanity

on this subject of belief. Poor adults need proof. What kind of

proof was solicited by you in accepting some one to be your father

or some name to be mine or for that purpose by " the children of now

a days " - say son of Sarphod Tablachi, if any ??

 

Do you " know " as to who is your father and who is your mother? What

proof or rationale you can give to support your acceptance of Mr X

as your father?

 

You asked " from where to pick the thread " . I reply to you that you

pick the thread from yourself and your Dear Father. Come On !

 

Reply now! Argue !!

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

-------------------------------

Mr.Pratapji Bhatt has explained the existance of God beautifully.It

is very much in sync with Sri Sri Paramhansa Yogananda's explanation

in his books- " Autobiography of a yogi " and " Man's eternal quest "

which i have read. Also the story quoted by mahalaksmiji perfectly

describes how to know God.He is all knowing and yet unknown.He is

the Devine Intelligence that governs all that is known to us.God is

indescribebable.He can only be felt in the depths of a pure soul.

Ami Chhowala

 

--------------------------------

I still remain unsatisfied in this " divine " forum. How and why

Paramatma can not be an individual ? Is there nothing in your

scriptures like Gita which says that a devotee can also " see " God ?

My Begum Sahiba states that she read from a book of your Swami

Ramsukhdasji that Jai Dayal Goenka and Hanuman Poddar

had " darshanas " of God. Was His statement right or your reference

of good Swami is right? Why do you say that God can not be known?

How then the desire to know can be fulfilled? Whether I need an

instruction manual or not is not the focal point, in fact, to be

fair to me, answer to my questions in simple and convincing manner

is focal point! None of the " sadhaks " are convincing so far. I

asked from where to pick the thread? The responses are unclear and

incomplete.

 

Mr Mike ! Incomplete, was your answer. If you believe you were like

me in the past, then make me like you in the present. Is that not a

divine task? Is that not the role of this forum? Logic must exist.

Pointers must be there. Knowledge cant be beyond itself. What else

we are doing at present except meeting?

 

Mr Vyas - When Your so called " Nature " made oceans, Sun Moon etc

and when Nature is supreme then where is the question of God? Why

cant Fire/ Ocean/etc are called God ? If yes, then how God is

beyond knowledge? How God can not be seen as stated by Mr Pratap

Bhatt or by Vineet Sarvottam ?

 

" Sadhaks " - My Begum Sahibaa directed me to you people to satisfy

my knowledge quest ! I expected better as I am hungry for answers.

 

Sarphod Tabalchi

--------------------------------

Such a question can only arise from those who consider gross body as

real self and not the outer sheath of immortal " real self " which

contains the apriori knowledge.

 

They see God every day but do not recognise THEE. The Universal God

is Tri-Ani-Pada- three bodies in One i.e. gross, subtle and divine.

Since the entire Brahamad is God, His gross body consists of " Sun

and Moon His eyes, firmament his middle body and earth as His Feet "

and His Head is in Heaven. Thus entire Brahmand is God. Most of the

people who find gross body as real, want to imagine and visulaise

God as a human being forgetting that human beings who live on this

earth are " Thy " tiny living cells. We have several billions living

cells in our gross body, can any living cell of our body tell who we

are?

 

But those who find human soul as " real self " have no difficulty in

knowing God. His divine body is the Omniscient Supreme Soul

(Parmatma) and His subtle body " Mahadeva " is omnipotent Supreme

Spirit prevalent in all animate and inanimate life/things. His

spirit is found in Shuniya (cosmic void) of all kind of matter

consisting of atoms with unsuspected vitality. Because of His spirit

prevalent in shuniya, matter is not inert.

 

Since Man is born in the image of God, human beings are also tri-ani-

pada. Immortal soul resides in our divine body, spirit resides in

our subtle body and gross instruments in our material body. Those

who consider material gross body as the real self will always find

difficult to know formless and ineffable universal God.

 

Incidentally formeless and ineffable Universal God is Brahma- name

derived from Brahmand and other gods in human form are Iswaras.

Iswaras are not the gods of entire mankind.

with regards,

Prem Sabhlok

 

 

--------------------------------

Dear sarphod,

 

God is in nature,he can only be felt.His power is dwelling

everywhere in the nature in the form of cosmic vibratioins .If we

can tune our mind with the same frequency by way of sadhana we can

feel the godliness of the nature.How a sperm can create a body with

life is the proof of the supernatural power of the god. So far we

are only establishing the things which are existing, but we are

unable to establish about the source of the existence.

Our ultimate goal our of life is to reuntite ourselves with the

nature from where we have come.Nothing extra to be thought about

god. Living close to the nature is living near god. But the senses

attached to our body always act against our realisation

process.controling the senses is the biggest challenge of our life.

Let us teach our children about righteous way of living ,think

naturally and live naturally.

 

with regards

Ramana kothuri

 

-------------------------------

--------------------------------

The questions of Mr Sarphod Tabalchi are basic questions. I too

dont believe that the Supreme Power would not leave any pointers or

logics of His existence. From where to pick the thread ? I dont

agree with Mr Sarvottam that God can not be seen by His beloved

ones.. There has to be nothing which is beyond the powers of

Supreme. One principle came from Mike's narration and Mr Vyas'

message that before " big bang " too something existed or that if

there is creation then there must be a creator. But how that is

exclusive prorogative of God only ? Creativity is universal symptom

and authority. Spiders are also creators as per Mike Keenor. Please

elaborate with reference to Sarphod's questions. What about five

elements? Are they creators? Are not these elements playing the

transformation game? I think more serious and direct discussions are

warranted on the subject, not just belief stricken answers. First

the logics/rationales have to be exhausted.

 

Luca Brasi

----------------------------

 

Jai Kali Mata

 

What is meant by " No one knows about time!!! " Also, I am unclear as

to how this is relevant to the questions asked? Is this idea about

time, emanated out of teachings of Shraddheya Swamiji referred by

him? Kindly clarify !

 

Bandook Singh

 

--------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

 

RESUBMITTED WITH SOME CORRECTIONS

 

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

You have asked -

 

1) Where is God, I have never seen Him?

Answer: Paramatma is not an individual that you or any one can

simply see. Existence - IS-ness (sattaa maatre) has been given the

name Paramatma. Otherwise there is no name for that Existence or all

Names are only Paramatma's (Supreme Consciousness's) Names.

 

2) Who has seen Him?

Answer: Paramatma has not been seen by anyone to date and in future

too Paramatma will not be ever seen. Shraddhey Swamiji has stated

that Paramatma can be believed, not known, nor seen. Beyond this

whatever anyone says, is questionable.

 

3) How is He?

Answer: How, where, when, what, why, such questions regarding

Parmatma are pointless. That which cannot be known, it cannot be

described at all.

 

4) What are you able to know " Time " (samay). This question has been

asked regarding time (whose beginning and end is unknown to us). It

is not a question about the watch or the interval. It is not only

you, but no one understands anything about " time " . They can say

nothing about time. Then why do you believe in time? Similarly

believe and accept Paramatma, it will be nothing but gain.

 

5) This same work is also performed by men through establishment of

laws. Just as all do not believe in the law, similarly, everyone

continues to speak and share for correcting one's foolishness, and

according to one's own convenience and conformance giving that

tattva a " form " . You too can speak about the same as well.

 

6) 'Existence' itself is 'Paramaatmaa'. Where can any supportive

arguments and evidence exist to establish the existence

of 'Existence' (named Paramaatmaa)? Then where is one to get the

support of this essential elemental belief 'ASTITTVA'? Reasoning-

deliberation-discussion (tark), proof-evidence (pramaan) can be of

that thing which we know. But Paramatma is not known and cannot ever

be known, then this reasoning and seeking evidence is not in

conformance to that reasoning.

 

7) Do you want Paramatma? or do you want an instruction manual or

an aphorism (sutra) to grab hold of Paramatma? Don't get caught up

in the vicious cycle of trying to find an instruction manual.

Leaving the search, become engaged in " Chup Saadhan " (Effortless

Awareness, Discipline of Silence). All quest, and inquiry will be

quietened, will become still.

 

Please kindly forgive any limitations in the expression / words

used.

 

Vineet Sarvottam

--------------------------

 

Hari Om

 

How to know what is beyond knowledge - is the moot question.

 

Logic/Rationale !! Proof !!! Sample !! Consider the following:

 

1 .Whatever we are able to see on this earth there is always a

creator /manufacturer - be it an allpin, pen, table, house, machine,

house, bed, watch, pen, paper, cloth or aircraft. Anything visible.

Then there should be creator of oceans, fire, air, mountains, earth,

Sun. Moon, stars also !

 

God is the creator of all. - CREATOR

 

2. Whatever thing which moves , be it car, aircraft, bicycle,

machine, computer, - there is always a controller thereof. Earth

also moves. Sun/Moon also move. Oceans remain in their limits. Sun

rises and sets perfectly without fail. There must be a controller of

them also!

 

God is the controller of all- CONTROLLER

 

Q BUT A HUMAN BEING ALSO CREATES ! WHAT IS SO IMPORTANT ABOUT IT ?

 

Ans A human being cannot " create " anything! It is only " nature "

which creates! You can only change the shape thereof. You can covert

gold into ornaments or iron into sword or utensil, but you can't

create gold or iron ! Only nature provides that. You can mix two or

more elements, formulate, change shape only. You can create . You

can " discover " only.

 

To be continued.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

-------------------------

Kindly read bertrand russel

Aranha Roy

 

---------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

Let us continue further on the subject and build on what sadhakas

have said.

Please, it may sound too intellectual, but it is not! It may humble

us!

Consider this: If we need to know/study any object, the object has

to exist in

the first place.

Even if we cannot know the object, we always know it exists. This

knowing of an

existence is prior to the knowledge of its nature, attributes,

function etc.

The Universe is a collection of objects, and can be said to be one

Existence

fundamentally. Individual objects within it are individual

existences localized

in space and time over which they exist, and change to other forms,

continuing

the existences.

When we say Universe we mean the Existence only. Even the word

Universe points

to the Existence first. How do we know such Existence itself? Only

by being

aware/cognizant of it, no other way. So the Existence is awareness

of Existence.

To see what is prior to such Existence, there has to be Awareness to

know

whether or not such Existence IS. Thus Awareness as Existence has to

be

beginningless! What is after the Existence, non-existence? no,

because to say

it, there has to be Awareness of non-existence. If there is

Awareness of

non-existence, IS-ness is established. Thus that which IS, the

Existence(without

division into many objects), is eternally free of time and space

containing all

objects(names/forms) in time and space by creating mind and endowing

it with

this ability in terms of thoughts/feelings. Gita in 2:16 says the

real never

ceases to be.

Such Awareful Existence has to be most Powerful, Intelligent,

Beautiful, full of

Love and Blissful which is our experience. Can we not call this God?

God means Such Intelligence as seen through those who serve, and love

unconditionally, those who fight for Dharma, the righteousness, and

those who

preach God's message!

Evil actions come out from not realizing the Truth of Eternal

Oneness, GOD!

Namaskar.............Pratap Bhatt

 

 

 

----------------------------

My answer is simply to a question which has been indirectly

asked: " Why can't I see Him? "

Because He is the Seer. You are what you are looking for. It is

subjective awareness.

The problem lies with the word 'God' because we then suppose a

distinct being like a tribal deity. No, it is Awareness, Supernal-

consciousness. This is the Vedantic way. Find out who you really

are, not how others see you, but from your subjective perspective,

and you'll find what you're looking for.

Rishi Handa

 

----------------------------

Wonderful expression by Pratap (Bhatt) Bhai

 

Further, a simple but serious exercise could help in understanding

this.....

Sarphodji, ask yourself " who is asking these questions? "

" Who wants to know God? " ....and wait for the answer....

see what comes from deep inside.....

 

but you have to have patience.....and keep asking/repeating the

questions....

In fact when you come across any such question, ask yourself

who is this who wants to know this, who is asking the question?....

 

and wait for the answers and experience that follows.......

Best wishes

Sushil Jain

 

--------------------------------

I am a believer of God. Like one person said in the e-mail below, I

went through that 'show me God to believe' stage when I was around

22 years - 26 years. I was God lover before and again lover now. I

do not really know and I do not think with my limited ablity I can

ever know. At the same time I am not blind follower too. I am open

to all these 6 questions coming from a logical person because I had

them before too and have them now too. Before - with doubt, now -

with wonder and amazement.

 

Knowing God is a long journey. I am on the journey, I beleive I am

gradually understanding the divine concept. I am understanding them

through others, specially our ancestors, Indian scriptures. There

are great concepts, ideas and explanations, there are trash also

amongst them. I am amazed at the power of those ideas and

explanations. They attempted volumes and spent 100s of years to find

God and explain the divinity. Can I really understand all this in my

life? I doubt, which is why its a journey for me. Can I see God? It

depends on. I feel divinity in some great people, in their ideas for

humanity - around me.

 

OK, when somebody asks the question 'show me God', what they are

asking us is 'show me Jesus, Show me Shiva or show me Vishnu'. I

doubt if any one has seen God in these forms. Unless the divine

power appears so for any. As for God in its full form - Can I

imagine the distance between the Earth and the nearest star (Alpha

Centauri - about 4 light years away). I cannot imagine that

distance - however logically I think. Can I see God then - which is

full of this universe? Impossible to imagine. Then how can I see

God, unless God willingly appears to me.

 

My dear friend, answers to those 6 questions need volumes of

explanation or simply experiecing of the divine power - depending on

where you stand on the quest for God. Its a journey, so please

discuss with people who have done the research (of your 6 questions

before) and experience the facts yourself. You still go through the

oscillations of belief and disbeliefs, but if your quest is sincere

you will start seeing light at the end of tunnel.

 

The above does not give straight answers to even one of your

questions. So thanks for your time, if at all you read through this

until now.

 

Venu Gopal

--------------------------------

 

 

PRIOR POSTING

I will come at these questions in a hard nosed manner, maybe I am

blessed as I too waved aside religions when younger but traveled full

circle to The Beloved, who I dearly love with my absolute being.

 

Question 6: There has to be some basis for his existence? What are

the logics which point towards the existence of God? From where to

pick the thread?

O.K. I would ask the skeptical young, (I will call him S. ), tell me

S. how did this Godless Universe begin? He may be a brilliant

physicist, good chance though, regardless S will start to talk about

the 'big bang', the question would then be, o.k. S. was there

substance, was there energy, and was there time, before the 'Event'?

I would ask S. also when this energy of the bang runs out what

then?, I would press the point home that the Great Indians

Traditions had a good explanation for all this many millennium

before the present time, and is probably a good guide for the

scientists. Oh! I would ask my young friend S. where did the laws of

physics come from? Apparently they are unique, the laws had to be

spot on for there to be an existance, that is what the physicist

seem to be saying.

 

I would ask S. one other thing, how is it possible for a spider to

build the perfect web according to its kind, without actually being

taught.

 

I would say to S., think about it, think about it, be tenacious, be

mercilessness, and be brave, let your desire for the truth take you

where it will, just hang in there! S. my friend I was once like you,

maybe one day we can really talk.

 

With Respect and Divine Love,

 

Mike Keenor

------------------------

 

Dear Sadak,

 

1. Where is God I have never seen Him?EXAMPLES Most children know

water is H2O (Hydrogen 2 parts and Oxygen 1 part) ask them them to

show hydrogen and oxygen showing water. Next show them Yogurt (Curd)

and ask them to show milk. Bigger children ask them to show planets.

Then tell then from Sanskrit slokas-- " God is apprameyam " that which

cannot be seen or known by senses as in case of above examples, as

God can be only known by Gyana (knowledge)

2. Who has seen Him? Like in case of scientist tell as per above

examples, so does Saints tell. Only a saint (Guru) can show God as

shown to Vivekananda by Swamy Ramakrishna

3. How is He? Slokas say: Aroopamai, Aksharamai. Roopam, Akandamai,

Viratroopamai Etc. No definite shape as HE appears in the form that

the devotee wants. HE is in sounds - Om, HE is like Sri Krishna/Sri

Rama Etc, Omnipresent (That cosmic energy filled in everything), HE

is in all shapes and forms.

4. If I dont know how do I accept? Contemplate. If you accept that

there is Galaxies then contemplate what energy is performing whole

universe, like in the case of any toy needs battery, car need petrol

or fuel, computer need electricity etc. Still do not want to accept-

Leave it.

 

Jai Sri Krishna

 

baiya sathyanarayan

-----------------------------

 

All questions arise out of answers. When one asks a question

either he needs a confirmation of the answer which he already has

or he is answering his own question. When somebody is asking a

question relating to God, first he has to explain what is in his

mind when he says or thinks of GOD.

 

Einstein said that the world is an optical illusion. We think and

feel that we are separated from the rest. This is an optical

illusion. We have no direct contact with the outside world. All

the sensorial data has to filter through our optical nerve and our

mind (delusion). So we have no idea of what is exactly out there.

When one realizes this he comes closer to God or some superior

knowledge.

 

To realise that we are the debris of God is the supreme

realisation.

 

The most mysterious thing holds the most important key. Death is

the most mysterious thing. Death holds the most important key.

 

When death happens. The soul/consciousness releases out of the

cage (body � which is always subjected to three dimensional view

and

linear concept of time and space), one will realize or merge with

God

 

H. Subair

 

 

------------------------------

dear pratapji,thank u for giving us such wonderful knowledge.person

like you are really god's gift to us.

bhargav mehta

------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Re: Does God (Paramatma) Exist? Where is the Proof? What

is the logic ?

 

Through that supreme devotion he comes to know Me in reality, what

and how great I am; and thereby knowing Me in essence he forthwith

enters into My being.

 

Gita - Chapter 18 Sloka : 55

 

Sundara Raghavendran

---------------------------

 

Deaar Sadhakas, Namaste!

When someone says " where is God? I have never seen Him " , that person

has to know what God is that he expect to see, otherwise he cannot

ask the question. The question comes from the implicit assumption

that God is some imagination, ideas, knowledge, belief, etc. in the

mind and what I see out there is definitely not " God " .

So it is better to rephrase the question back to What God is first.

When that is understood, all questions by Tabalchiji will get

answered.

Consider the following dialogue:

Q: Do you have a doubt about your own existence?

A: No, I know I exist beyond a shadow of doubt. It is so obvious to

me!

Q: How do you know you exist?

A: I don't know HOW, but I am sure I DO!

Q: Do you need any help of another person, scripture, or some

logical explanation to confirm you do exist?

A: Definitely not, even if they say I don't exist, I know I do,

because it is experiential within me now. I don't even need any

sense organs-mind-intellect to tell me I exist!

 

So, it is self-evident existence, of " beingness " we all feel within

us, and by which we know what is knowable in this world as objects

of knowledge. This experience of Being Conscious is always with us,

never are we away from IT, not even in our sleep when body-mind-

world are all gone no one knows where! But I am always!

I just have to find out that ultimately this " I " is Impersonal and

is of the nature of Existence-Consciousness which we call God!

Personal God of Bhakta appears in this Impersonal!

Based on this, I can conclude that God is not a particular object

among many objects we know through sense organs, mind and intellect.

It is THE UNIQUE and objectless EXPERIENCE!

It is like our eyes who cannot see themselves and yet know their

existence beyond any shadow of doubt because SEEING takes place

automatically by just Being.

Once it is grasped, it can lead to God Realization!

Namaskar...

 

Pratap Bhatt

 

-------------------------------

 

My dear Sarphod,

There is a very beautiful story from ancient times that I have

heard from my guru. Once, a king called his minister and said, " I

want you to answer two questions.....otherwise your position will be

at stake.....first, can you show me God. Secondly, what is God

doing right now?

The minister was in anxiety. He went home, began searching

through various scriptures....wondering if he would have a job the

next day. His small son approached him, and noticing his father's

perplexity, inquired, " What troubles you, father? " The father

responded, " Oh, this is not something you would understand. " At

the child's persistence, the father finally explained. The small

child smiled, and simply said, " Father, that is so easy to

answer.....just tell the king that even a small child can answer

these inquiries, and I will then give him my responses " .

The father had no choice, as he didn't know the way to

respond. So, when the child came before the king, he requested the

king, " First, please have a pot of milk brought forth. " The king did

so. Then the child inquired, " Is there ghee in this milk? " The

king said, " Yes, it is there. " Then the child explained, " It is

there, but you cannot see it. Why can you not see the ghee? " The

king said, " There is a process by which the ghee will be brought

forth, of course, first one must churn the milk into butter, then

the butter is slowly heated until the ghee rises to the

surface......only after one patiently follows this process will he

see the ghee. " As the king was speaking, slowly realization came

into his heart, that similarly, one cannot demand to see God at this

moment....there is a process. One who's heart is not pure, who

does not have love and devotion, cannot see the Lord, but He will

certainly reveal Himself to those who are willing to accept the

process of " bringing forth the ghee " .

The child then said, " You are asking me what God is doing.

That is putting me in the postion of teacher, and you as disciple.

So, is it appropriate for you to be sitting on your throne, if you

are learning from me? " The wise King immediately pleced the child

on the throne, and sat in front of him, ready to try to understand

his next lesson. " This is what God is doing " ....he said. " He is

taking someone from a low position and putting him into a high

position, according to the results of his work, and taking someone

else from a high position and putting him into a low position. "

The king was very pleased with the child's answers, and rewarded him

and his father.

So, one may say, " I don't accept such simplistic

responses " .....well, then, such a person will never see the Lord,

unless and until he is fortunate enough to get the association of a

sadhu, by whose association one's heart melts. When one truly

comes into contact and develops some sukrti by contact with a God

consscious person, there is no material, anaytical way to explain

what happens. It is beyond our mundane intelligence, our ability to

analyze. So, simply pray for the youth you are hoping to guide,

and gradually perhaps the mercy of the sadhus will come to them.

It is not a mechanical process.

I hope my words have been gentle, encouraging, and helpful.....it

is truly a sadness which we all share as parents if our children

become somewhat agnostic or doubtful of the underestanding of the

Lord's presence, and the need for ancient, eternal tradition. We

can only pray to be the best examples of loving, patient friends for

them that we can possibly be.

 

respectfully,

Mahalaksmi Dasi

 

-------------------------------

Sarphod,

 

Read Paramahansa Yogananda's book " the Autoibgraphy of a Yogi "

published by Self Realization Fellowship, Los Angeles, CA.

 

Haley H. Haynes

--------------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

In this posting I would like to build on my previous post.

We as parents must deeply understand the truth of who we are, what

is the nature of world and God first. Then only we can explain to

our children. I would shy away to tell children that because it is

said in our scriptures, you have to believe in God being such and

such.

 

We can begin on the path of knowledge with the premise. That which

always IS irrespective of time, location or cause, is Truth. Truth,

thus, cannot be denied and has to be our continuous experience

always, not some states we experience that come and go, rather That

in which all states of experiences happen.

 

In the beginning it may sound like intellectual, but understanding

of that which always IS, has to be our real nature, or Reality of

whatever we all seem to experience dawns on us sooner rather than

later. What is Reality, then?

If we continue to inquire, we may find that whether I am in joyful,

or painful or sad or indifference or even in depressed

situations, " I am " always present and " knowingness " of these various

situations I am in is also always present too, which I never notice

due to my attachments/aversions to situations. These situations

eventually disappear but not " I " .

What is the nature of this I that we all say I when referring to

ourselves? Whatever it is, for sure it IS! This ISNESS-I is the most

certain experience and is Truth. Even if I see illusion, I or seeing

is the truth. This seeing then is communicated as I see an object(or

hear, taste, smell, touch, think, feel etc). I and seeing is

synanymous as consciousness.

 

Now extend this to outer world. Regardless of objects we perceive

out there, Being Conscious of them is the only truth of our

experience. Thus, alleged external world is nothing but ONE

Undivided/Whole Existence/Consciousness(Absolute) in our experience.

Mind is given to us to divide the Existence into different objects

for practical and Divine play. When we come to this understanding,

our attitude towards world changes to one of dispassion, devotion

and to serve it as God, in whatever ways we can. We see God

everywhere our eyes fall upon!

This is God relization.

Namaskar.............Pratap Bhatt

 

GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES:

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related to Gitaji shlokas. Therefore, responses which further

clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be posted.

2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to

substantiate your response.

3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the

extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas

4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting

sadhaka's time.

5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only.

6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other

organizations.

7. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone

number, address etc.

8. Please do not address the response to a particular individual

since the message is going to the entire group.

9. Due to the large readership, all responses may not be posted.

10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if content

is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the group.

11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth,

westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use to Sanskrit

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wherever possible.

 

MODERATOR

Ram Ram

------------------------

 

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Posted

My question is that how to prove that there exists a super natural

power called " God " ? At least how to explain that. How to correlate

His existence with the character of the world? Children now a days

need more than belief to accept. Can there be any way vide which we

can establish that God exists. If some body says say :

1. Where is God I have never seen Him?

2. Who has seen Him?

3. How is He?

4. If I dont know how do I accept?

5. God is a term coined by elders to put moral shackles over us so

that we may indulge in goodness.

6. There has to be some basis for his existence? What are the logics

which point towards the existence of God? From where to pick the

thread?

 

Sarphod Tabalchi

 

 

NEW POSTING

 

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

Tabalchiji, with all the respect for you and questions, I may point

out that no one can make anyone see anything let alone God if that

person doesn't want to see. It seems like you may be insistent upon

seeing God in the way you want to see.

Please forgive me if I am wrong, but as a friend I am saying. It

seems like you may not have read the postings with open mind, with

the desire to know the truth. Open mind doesn't mean accepting, it

means you must give a fair reading/hearing and then asking pertinent

questions or raise doubts based on what is read. Here your responses

indicate you have decided that God cannot exist for you if you

cannot see or have some logic to prove God's existence. One has to

see that " seeing God " means deep understanding of intuitive nature

in this context where mind being limited cannot comprehend. It has

to be prepared to be open. Our conditioned mind is incapable of

grasping truth.

Some of us provided solid logic, but it still fell short to make you

see the pointers.

I said one cannot say " I don't see God " without knowing what God he

is looking that he cannot find. One has to know what one wants to

see, right? One can say " I don't know God, tell me what/where I

should look, and how to recognize " . It is different than show me

God, right?

Once again, God is the Conscious/Intelligent Existence as reflected

in our experience of " I am " right now as you read these words. In

first posting, dialogue was used to illustrate it as a solid proof

one cannot deny.

There are ways to experience God for which senses-mind-intellect is

not capable like they are for knowing objects. Nevertheless, there

is proof of God more reliable than that.

But this point didn't make any impression.

I request you with humility to re-read responses again and see what

happens!

Namaskar..............Pratap Bhatt

-------------------------------

Hare Krishna

 

Okay Mr. Sarphod,

 

Let's put God's existence out of equation for a moment and only

discuss about sample/logics/rationales w.r.t. YOUR existence.

 

I AM

 

Well, you don't have any doubt in your existence, right? Your body

has changed and it is rapidly changing every second. But Mr.

Sarphod, is you also changing with the body? You are certainly not

changing with it because if you were changing then who would have

known the change in body? You are that changeless element who knows

the change in body. Isn't it? Childhood, youth, old age are the

changing phases of the body but you are that changeless element who

is witness to all these changes. It is a law that only a changeless

element can perceive the ever-changing element. My question - What

is the basis of your never-changing existence? If you consider

body's existence as your existence then you are defying all logic,

because body is changing every second!!!

 

I and MINE

 

It is a law that whatever is mine, it is never I. For example you

consider your house, car, wife, children etc. as mine but you never

consider them as I. But in the case of body you say 'my hands, my

legs, my stomach, my ears, my eyes, my throat etc.' and

simultaneously you also consider it as 'I' e.g. I am not feeling

well. You establish two transversal relationships with the body,

that of 'I' and 'MINE'. Whichever thing is mine it is always apart

(separate) from you, and that thing which is separate from you, how

can it be I? This body is also apart from you but still you call it

as I. Is this logical?

 

Mr. Sarphod, now I wish to see you. Can you show me yourself???

Ohh... please don't show me that body which you claim it as mine. I

want to see that Mr. Sarphod who claims the body as mine. In other

words, I want to see that element which you refer to as I?

 

Before that I am eager to know whether you have ever seen yourself.

According to you anything that exists is perceptible. So Mr.

Sarphod, with which instrument have you seen yourself?

 

If you have not seen yourself then, well ..... do you exist ?????

 

And at last one more question- Whose name is Sarphod - body or

yourself?

 

Mr. Sarphod, with your logics/samples/rationales etc., first prove

 

1. Your existence.

2. The basis of your existence.

3. The instrument with which you have seen/felt your existence.

 

Then we will also discuss about God's existence....

 

As Sarphodji is contemplating over his existence, in the mean time,

those sadhaks whose faith in God has dwindled with his questions,

they are requested to read this Sadhaka posting

sadhaka/message/2108

 

Hare Krishna

Varun P. Paprunia

-------------------------------

 

Jai Hanuman

 

(Shrimad Bhagvad Geeta- Marathi Edition- By Saint Gyaaneshwarji-

Chapter 13- Kalyaan- By Narainduttji Gaur )

 

Jeeva ( J) (We all- as referred in BG 15:7) :

 

Mom pls tell me , when I was born?

 

Maya , Mother Nature, Prakrati, Illusion (As referred in BG 7: 13/14)

( M ) :

 

( Irritated) What non sense! Is it some thing to be told? (By a Mom

to Son?)

 

J: If mother doesn't tell, who will?

 

M: How to tell you? I came only after you !

 

J: Typical Mom ! Means- I came first and then you? Surprising? Isn't

it?

 

M: You won't understand. Be silent and sleep!

 

J: Come On ! First me ..! And then You ...!! (How can it be?) Pls

tell me the story ! Please !!

 

M: I told you. You won't understand! Many big people even could not.

 

J: Ok ! Then my Father can let me understand. Take me to Him, please.

 

M: ( Curtly) Stop this song of Father, Father. Your Father is Father

only for the name sake.In fact, I have to do every thing.

 

J: Does He not do anything?

 

M: What can He do? He is old, ancient, poor fellow (eternal) ! Then

totally actionless! Absolutely non-doer! Neither hands, nor legs,

nor eyes, nor ears! Nothing in fact! Look Kid ! Whatever colour ,

form etc of the world which you are seeing is my miracle, my form,

my competence, my work ! Ok? Your Father has neither any form, nor

any beauty. What beauty He can impart to the world?

 

J: But all say that He is the real Creator. See Mom! Whatever is my

Father, He is my Father! Ok? His insult...??

 

M: Insult! What insult? Whose insult? One who does not have any

caste or creed, any family or varna, any city or village- what can

be His respect or disrespect?

 

J: How bad He will feel, if He listens to what you are saying?

 

M: Even if He gets annoyed, what can He do? One who neither moves,

nor walks, nor travels, nor laughs, nor cries, nor speaks, neither

any juice, nor any taste, nor any play !!! This entire

exhibition/show I run, Dear Son !!

 

J But out there on Gate (of the circus) His name is written, O Mom !!

 

M: Ultimately you will take side of your Father only. Afterall you

are His son!

 

J: O Mom of the Universe! Why did not you put name of yours on the

front gate of this Great Circus? ( The world)

 

M: How to put my name. This is the real trgedy. You won't

understand, Son. I, the creator and controller of uncountable

universes can not do any thing by my name!! (Ramcharitmanas- 5/21/4)

 

J: Don't be sad and sorry Mom! What is the matter?

 

M: It is very secret, Son! If by seeing my banner outside the gate,

if somebody wants to meet with me, he will be disappointed. Son!

Please understand my pain. One is lazy ( does nothing), has no

organs, is actionless- those who want to search such (an element)

person , they search Him merely by His name! (Ramcharitmanas-

1/26/2). But to me, even when I am controlling entire sentient and

insentient world, if some body wants to search, CANNOT find! Cannot

search.

 

J: Why not Mom?

 

M: (With tears in her eyes) Because, in reality, I don't exist. I am

false. I am asat. I am non existent. My " not being " is my " being " .

Whatever is not- I am that. I am no-thing.

 

J: And whatever is there, that is who? Who is that?

 

M: He is your Father, Son!

 

J: (In mind, talking with himself only, Son thinks/says - Hats off

to you Mom! When you don't exist, then this is the scene of the

world that even Lord Shiva , Brahma are afraid of you -

Ramcharitmanas 7/71/8- had you existed " actually " Mom then.....)

 

O my No-thing Mom! When you don't even exist , then on whose power

you run this circus called the world?

 

M: What to tell you, Son? I can tell you only this much that, of

Whose a mere flicker of eyebrow, I do rule the uncountable

universes, I can't dare/ don't have courage to face Him. I do run

this circus only on His strength.

 

J : O My Unconquerable Mom! My hundreds of Pranaams to you. Bless

me , O Mom! So that I may get my Father!!

 

While bowing and doing Pranaams to his mother, Jeeva became

tranquilised and then in the background divine music played-

 

" MAAMEVA YA PRAPADYANTE, MAYAMETAM TARANTI YE "

 

(BG 7:14)

 

He was He only!

 

Namaste Jee.

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

-------------------------------

-Shri Hari-

 

My dear Sarphodji,

 

A few points to consider, I have said I have been touched by the

Divine,(just one way of putting it), such Grace is life changing, I

could be lying or be mad,(I tell the truth), but I know just by

reading the things fellow Sadhaks have written that I AM NOT ALONE.

Some people come to Bhagwan with ease and joy others take the path of

fire so to speak, (the hard miles).

 

In the west there is an expression,'The Dark Night of The Soul', and

yes! If it is known in the west it is most absolutely known in the

Indian Traditions.(I think Arjuna's predicament reflects that),I will

stay using the terminology to which I am most familiar.

You say you are deserted, you are not deserted, the Brethren have not

deserted you, and in the Darkest Moment of the Soul, there is a light

shining, that light comes from 'That', which will wash away you

tears, 'That' which will break your heart so that you can be

mended. Your arguments are not solid dear Brother, not to those that

have felt the embrace of The Beloved. Your inflexibility, combined

with your determined search, may well introduce you to 'The Dark

Night...', the very ONE you rebuked the most, will be the one that

rescues you. I speak from experience not from books.

 

With Respect and Divine Love,

 

Mike Keenor

 

 

 

 

 

PRIOR POSTING

Hari Om

 

If sadhaks can concentrate on giving short pointers / rationale

which establishes the existence of Supreme Power it will help all

in being definitive, have reference material and it will also

strengthen faith. Ego, Intellect and Mind don't let you agree that

easily. And who knows who may need in the coming turbulent era of

Kaliyug, that is lacking in faith and belief. Let us get united.

 

From discourses of Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj (Taat Shree), whom I

have solely relied on for a number of years -

 

Every human being wants the following:

 

1) To " live for ever " . This is desire for SAT (existence). Fear of

death is the indicator of that desire.

2) To know every thing. No one wants to be unknowlegeable. This is

desire for CHIT (Knowledge).

3) To be happy. No one wants to be unhappy. This is desire for

ANANDA.

 

Any doubt Mr Sarphod? Now if there is a desire then the element to

fulfill that desire must also be there. There must be some one /

some element which enables you to " live for ever " , to be all knowing

and to be ever blissful. Had such an element not existed, we would

not have had the desire for the same.

 

Paramatma is SAT-CHIT-ANANDA.(Sachchidananda)

 

Raam! Raam!! Raam!!!

 

To be continued.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

------------------------------

 

Dear Tabalchi ji,

 

According to J. Krishnamurti " modern so called educated " people want

a little bit of intellectual amusement and therefore they indulge in

meaningless discussions about God and such matters. God cannot be

discussed in this manner, because That Absolute Truth (give

It/Her/Him any name) is beyond description.

Your all the six questions are like the enquiries of a " full

stomach " tourist without an iota of appetite going through the menu,

or reading it aloud with his co-friends. If you are really thirsty

you will not indulge in such childish questions about water, but

will try your best to drink it.

 

I suggest you read Uncommon Wisdom and other books by Dr Capra (a

physic scientist) who has quoted from our Sanskrit literature about

God, or read A Brief History of Time by Hawking Stephens (well known

expert on dark hole and universe) to know the concept of time and

space. At least do go through some writings by Nobel laureate Dr

Edington (a scientist). Only then, you can be a little serious about

exploring the great Absolute Truth. Become " jyan-vijyan-triptah " and

only then we can walk together on this spiritual quest.

 

Regards,

Suresh C. Sharma

------------------------

 

Sir,

You are asking the oldest question ever being asked. See around

you, a sperm has made you upto approximately 6 feet. Who designed

this project and process. Your father and mother only are tools.

Inquire within and get the answer.

 

surender syal

--------------------------------

 

Mitro,

Why has this God become famous as " HE " why not " she " or " IT "

or " Nothing " ? Today's generation will not believe in gibberish

bakwaas . The paradox is every religion, every saint says that God

is ONE. But even within Hindus philosophy we see thousands of gods

(many names and forms). If God is One then why all the differences

and the fights? How come? Ramchander Homma

 

------------------------------

I agree with Luca Brasi that I should be fairly replied. I have

asked a lot of questions. I want proof/logic and I want to know How

is that Supreme. I want sample. I want rationale. My Begum Saahibaa

also told me that I am head breaker like your Shashikaljee told me.

But I never agreed with her so far. I never admitted this version.

I am not head or skull breaker. My name suggests that I am mind

fixer. Any way how the name matters? I am what I am. I accept my

parents because even if I dont remember my birth, they remember

that. They know that I am their child. I can see them. I can feel

them. I can experience them. I can recognise them. That is why they

are my parents. Where is God? How can I accept God on the grounds

that since I did not know my parents at the time of birth and I

accepted hence I should accept God also. Children are children. They

dont understand. But I am adult. I understand. My Begum Sahibaa

could not satisfy me and hence she asked me to get in touch with you

She said you will satisfy me.I checked with her that I am not

satisfied even after, because I have MOST SOLID arguments, then

what? Even my father deserted me because he could not satisfy me.

She said such situation will not arise. If I cant see , I cant

accept. Prove to me how one can accept without seeing or feeling or

experiencing or logic or rationale or basis. At least I should feel

or experience. Even if my parents were dead at the time of birth,

still I would accept that because how can I come without them on

this earth. What is your answer? Pratap or Vineet or Mike or

Shashikala. My Begum Sahibaa said few things regarding observations

of Vineet also. Please reply- Sadhaks of this self

proclaimed " Divine " site. Dont go by my name. Even my Begum

Saahibaa complains regarding my name. What can I do regarding my

name Jee?

 

Sarphod Tabalchi

 

 

PRIOR POSTING

Hare Krishna

 

Sarphodji,

 

Not only can Parmatma be an individual he can also be a fish

(Matsya-avatar), a tortoise (Kachchap-avatar), a pig (varaha-avatar),

a half lion-half man (Narsimha-avatar) and what not!!!

According to Gita, not only can a devotee see God but also know Him

and also enter into Him.

 

Arjuna said

O universal form, O thousand-armed Lord, I wish to see You in Your

four-armed form, with diadem on your head with club, wheel, conch and

lotus flower in Your hands. I long to see You in that form. (11.46)

 

Sanjaya said

The Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krishna, having spoken thus to

Arjuna, displayed His real four-armed form and at last showed His

two-armed form, thus encouraging the fearful Arjuna. (11.50)

 

Lord Krishna said:

My dear Arjuna, this form of Mine you are now seeing is very

difficult

to behold. Even the demigods are ever seeking the opportunity to see

this form, which is so dear.

Neither by the study of Vedas, nor by penance, nor by charity, nor

even by rituals can I be seen in this form (with four-arms), as You

have seen Me.

O valiant Arjuna, through single-divided devotion, however, I can be

seen in this form (with four-arms), known in essence and even entered

into.

My dear Arjuna, he who performs all his duties for Me, depends on Me,

is devoted to Me, has no attachment, and is free from malice towards

all beings, reaches Me. (11.52-55)

 

Please give special attention to the last 2 verses. This will answer

your question of knowing and seeing God.

 

Yes, I have also read the same in Swamiji's book which your wife has

stated. I consider it to be true because I believe in Swamiji's

words.

 

Hare Krishna

Varun P. Paprunia

------------------------------

 

Hari Om

 

No! Sarphodji. Those who want to learn should read carefully and

should learn also to be patient. All sadhaks upto now have given

excellent observations. I have also given you logics/pointers and

will

continue to give you till you get satisfied. I agree with Luca that

there must be logics/rationale existing. It is another matter, as Mr

Vineet stated, that they are pointless once you proceed ahead. But

still questions are questions and your insistence , though, odd but

still should be respected. Your " Begum Sahibaa " appears to have

directed herself to peace. I wish you understood the hidden affection

in the in the message of Mike Keenor to you. Here are more

logics/pointers to you:

 

3. In life, we always find a higher person than ourselves. In every

field a higher person than one is existing. See around you, you will

find this statement to be true. Even the President of USA can not say

" I am the Highest " . Always a better /higher person than you is

existing. Now where does this " highness " end. If there is sense of

highness , then there must be an element which is " highest " . God is

that element. God is the HIGHEST.

 

4. You always need some " shelter " to survive. In the childhood you

need shelter of parents, teacher, etc. Then of education, ability,

wife, money, home, employers, what not. In old age, you need wife,

children, stick, doctor, medicines, health etc Sujects change but not

the need for shelter.. If there is consistent need for shelter , then

there must be an element existing of whose shelter is the ultimate

shelter. Is not it Mr Sarphod. ( You should argue on such in

principle

points. Check up with you Begum Sahibaa.) ? If you are thirsty ,

there

must be water existing on the planet. Now when you need always some

shelter or other, then there must be an element which can be

described

as " Highest Shelter available " ! God is " PARAM ASHRAYA DATA " Giver

of that shelter. If you take shelter of God, no other shelter will be

necessary,

 

5. We always want to be perfect. There is no doubt on that. But there

is also no doubt regarding the fact that we err. In fact " to err is

human " -this saying is prevalent on this planet from time immemorial.

Now if there is a desire to become perfect then there must exist an

element which is most perfect. Did you ever hear that there was a

difference of a fraction of a second even in timings of Sun rise and

Sun set? Is not everything moving to the perfection? Who can be more

perfect except God. God is the MOST PERFECT.

 

To be continued till you say " I am satisfied "

 

As regards your observation that " Nature " also creates/controls-

answer is that whether you believe that nature has " knowledge " ? If

yes, then that nature is our God. In our religion ( I don't know your

religion) SHAKTI is God also. But if according to you , the INERT

NATURE has no knowledge, then you have to accept God. Can inert

nature

take care of so many souls, operate Law of Karma, provide food to so

many creatures? If Yes- I don't mind calling that Nature to be God.

After all it is a matter only of " terminology " . If no then you must

accept that IF THERE IS DESIRE / NEED IN YOU TO BE PERFECT OR TO TAKE

SHELTER OR TO SEEK HIGHNESS then there exists an element to fulfil

that desire. That element is called " GOD/ PARAMATMA " . Logical ?

Does

it appeal to your logic Mr Sarphod? Check up with your Begum Sahibaa

and come back. Your arguments shall exhaust, not our arguments- be

sure on this. After all you are on GT Site !

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

-------------------------------

 

Dear Sarphod:

 

Wonderful! I like your guts to put this question across!! I was

startled to start with and even alarmed as I contemplated " thanks

for triggering the turbulence from which proceeds the peace as

always. "

 

Son goes to father and asks, " Father, what is God? " Father

answered, " Whatever drives your life, whatever sustains your life

and whatever absorbs your life is verily God my child. Think about

It! " The father was wise enough not to instruct what God is. The son

promptly contemplates in what his father said and came back, " Father,

fear drives all the lives. Fear sustains all the lives. Fear absorbs

all the life. Therefore, fear should be the god. " Father

remarks, " Good job! Keep thinking. " The son not knowing whether his

revelation was conclusive or not continues to contemplate. Son comes

back to father and declares, " Father, desire drives all the lives,

desire sustains all the lives and desire absorbs all the lives.

Therefore, the desire should be the god. " Father remarks again, Good

job! Keep thinking. " The son does not feel the conclusive

appreciation regarding the god - is it fear or desire? He continues

to contemplate and realizes that, the happiness drives all the

lives. Happiness sustains all the lives. And, happiness absorbs all

the lives. Therefore happiness should be the god.

 

Now he does not go back to his father as he has already felt the

wisdom behind his father's remarks. God is not something that can be

taught to, or preached to or transferred to anybody. It is the

notion within ... it is the imagination within ... it is the

deliberation within ... it is the understanding within ... it is the

appreciation within ... IT IS THE PRESENCE WITHIN in its core. The

son, accepting the challenge from his father to use the body, senses

and mind blessed to him, continues to contemplate.

 

He has seen the driving force, sustenance strength and absorption

power in the fear, in the desire as well as in the happiness. He

sees that the three divinities of creation, sustenance,and

absorption transcend the boundaries of his existential fears,

desires and happiness altogether integrating the whole universe of

knowns as well as unknowns - manifested as well as unmanifested -

mitigating the differences that were once prominent amongst the

three phases of life - fear, desire and happiness.

 

Then starts another dilemma - who is the god amongst these three

divinites that seem to determine what life is? Driving Force or

Sustenance Strength or Absorption Power? Again, he approaches his

father, the wisdom established within to contemplate on the dilemma.

 

The driving force comes first to claim the unclaimed post of The

God. On ruthless examination, the driving force starts wondering

aloud that it itself should have been driven by something else. The

new driving force wonders the same and so on. The driving force digs

up an infinite legacy of its own kind beneath lost in the oblivion

of the past. It returns back in frustration not withstanding what

the driving force could really be.

 

The absorption power jumps in next to claim the still unclaimed post

of The God. Again, the wisdom starts the same gruelling scrutiny.

The power under sharp vigilence starts whithering away to wonder if

it absorbs everything there should be something to absorb itself.

The new absorbing power wonders the same way and so on. The

absorption power piles up an infinite heirarchy of its own kind

above lost in the oblivion of the future. It returns back in

frustration not withstanding what the absorption power could ever

be.

 

The empty throne is still awaiting to be filled. The sustenance

strength walks to claim the post in confidence. The valiant wisdom

does its job with no resistance subjecting the life sustenance

power in suspension of its examination. The sustencance strength

which provides strength to all the life around starts wondering what

is the source of its own strength and sustenance. The new source of

the strength resounds the same wonder what could be the source of

strength. The sustenance strength keeps jumping from on fold to

another all around the universe that is within its control to seek

itself folding itself in infinitude lost in the vast presence. It

returns back in frustration not withstanding what the sustenance

strength could ever be.

 

Seeing the crest-fallen champions of life not realizing their own

true nature around, the throne of The God starts fading into

silence. The wisdom starts wondering in itself. Is it not the

driving force as well as the sustenance strength as well as the

absorption power all the time all around? Suddenly, the demarkation

between the three divinities that was once so thick and opaque

starts giving away to reveal the force, strength and power of

creation, sustenance and absorption in itself and hence in every

thing that is perceieved ever.

 

The realized wisdom gets back and declares. Never ever ignore your

fears. Never ever ignore your desires. Never ever ignore your

happiness. Ever be with your fears, desires and happiness as you

are. Then you see the unison amongst your fears, desires and joys

and hence in all your emotions, relations and existence within as

well as around. Then you see all the boundaries separating your

notions dissolve in the very wisdom where you dwell upon. Being what

you are in spite of your apparent variances of life naturally

transcends all the barriers built by your cognition across

everything to reveal THE ONE everywhere and everywhence. Then the

very post of God does not appear to be real anymore which seemed the

most troublesome question to start with.

 

God remains evasive till you drift away from what you are in vain

searching whatever IT could be! Therefore, my dear friend, better

pause in your frenzy search and look around and look within … be

what you are. Then God is everything … not just a notion ... not

just a faith ... not just a doubt ... but, everything ... EVERYTHING

WITH NO EXCEPTION. If you remain what you are, IT is all-inclusive.

If you attempt to search for it, IT becomes all-exclusive. In other

words, IT is EVERYTHING in your presence; and IT is NOTHING in your

perception.

 

Respects.

 

Naga Narayana

--------------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

Let us address one aspect of Tabalchiji's issues with responses of

sadhakas received so far!

To be able to see God, one needs to recognize God upon seeing

anything, right? If one says I don't see God, one is looking for what

one " thinks " God is in whatever one is looking at. For God to be

" that " it will be very very limiting to God, because what we think is

so limited even if it is some grand image of God. That is not

logical, right?

Now when Swamiji says Goenkaji and Poddarji had darshana of God, what

does it mean?

It means the deep understanding of what God is and subsequent

realization that " my God, there is nothing else but only God IS in

the disguise of the Cosmos " that sees through that individual.

The individual's vision has changed entirely, where he/she saw

objects of the world before, now he sees only Divinity in the same

forms. It is our experience that what we believe out there, we tend

to see only that through our being closed minded. Similarly when we

understand God, this " Understanding " opens up the very mind who sees

God everywhere, individual is merely a channel God is using.

Other aspects of issues will see later....

Namaskar............Pratap Bhatt

 

------------------------

-Shree Hari-

 

Sarphodji,

 

Great! You are still questioning brilliant!

I have read the responses from our brethren, great beauty full of

divine love. But I will stick to the hared nosed roll,(look past it

dear friend).

If someone asked me to show her an oak tree, and I gave her an acorn,

what would she say I wonder? Of course the blueprint for the whole

tree is in the acorn, one also one wonders, did the first oak tree

have an acorn or the first acorn have an oak tree?

Question 6 if resolved is the platform upon which all the other

question can be answered it seems to me.

I can only tell you how I came to be touched be The Divine, that was

by my search into paradoxes, like the universe, like the acorn.

I once mentioned a man I met in unusual circumstance. It was about

3am

in a large air traffic control room, very few controllers in the room

at that time. I was waiting to get clearance to work on a console(to

do annual technical checks). There across the room was this

controller, He had his headset on,(with a long lead), he was

performing asanas, (within the restriction), " trying to stay awake? "

I

asked, " no he boomed " , we started to talk. We had 'Much' in common,

we

developed a dialog from then on , it was he who suggested I read

Bhagavad Gita,(I humbly suggest you do also).

He once said to me with his booming humorous voice, " Mike if people

could her us they would think we're 'Lunatics'.

What we had in common at the root, was our hunger for the truth, and

the courage, 'to ride the tiger " .

We were an unlikely pair from a world view, he was a Sri Lankan, me

an

Anglo Celt, especially if one could here us talking, but we were

brothers of the spirit.

There is much I could talk of, but I must bow to the respected

moderator.

 

With Respect and Divine Love,

 

Mike Keenor

-

Mr Sarphod ! So you are a male as well as married ! Very good Jee !

 

It is a good habit to act in accordance with advice your Begum. How

did she leave you alone? Do you have books of Swamiji Ramsukhdasji

Maharaj at your home? Your “Begum†had those books according to

you.

Did you read them? Or your Begum only reads them? By the way did

you ever think about or did you ever have a desire to smell “

flower

of sky†? Why did you not think about flower of sky or desired to

smell it ? Reply. This is a question to you. Also reply if you always

believe only after “seeing†?

 

Let us know as to how you can get satisfied according to you?. What

methodology suits your mind.? How do you generally feel regarding

this world,mind, intellect, body etc etc ? How according to you such

a

big world is operating ? Do you think there are some laws governing

this world? Keep also giving your observations , counter arguments on

EACH AND EVERY response which is given to you. Otherwise how will we

know whether the cure has taken place? Understood? You can consult

your Begum also before replying to my queries. Always tell us what

your Begum told you and what is your own observation. Why don’t you

tell your Begum also to become member and start Satsanga? Will that

not be better? What is her kind name, Jee?

 

Namaste Jee.

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

 

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

Another aspect of issues raised by Tabalchiji can be answered based

on

what sadhakas already have echoed in their responses.

The most important thing is to know that God is not " something " ,

" somewhere " and " some times " . It is at the core of our being, an

intimate experience which is The Knowingness without anything known.

In otherwords, God cannot be known as another limited object,

nevertheless, is known as " knowingness " in us by virtue of just

being.

For example, if someone were to ask you, can you show me Love, Peace,

Compassion, Beauty, Goodness etc " out there " ? You cann't! They are

experiences within us that we attribute to things/situations etc

outside which may have triggered them. Some philosopher rightly said

" From the beginning, not a thing is! " Please, please, see the truth

of

this. We are connected to the world only through Being Conscious of

something or other which we conceptualize as subject

experiencer(mind-body), and objects experienced, both thought as

separate. Such division is not experiential.

Just as these experiences are not seen " out there " , but are truely

happening in our consciousness, God cannot be seen, as separate from

Consciousness.

Sun, for example, is nothing but the experience of light and heat,

conceptualized as " Sun " out there, for practical purpose. This is

also

true for all apparant objects of the world.

God or Consciousness or Atman, are also such conceptual words of the

most intimate Wordless Experience! They are good pointers though!

When people engage in services to help others who are victims of

disasters, diseases, violence, wars, terrorism etc etc who motivates

their actions? Unconditional Love and Goodness of the heart! People

who help to preserve natural environment, forests, animals, etc etc

are also inspired by the same Love and Goodness!

Can we not call Unconditional Love and Goodness of the heart God?

Are those who bring such disasters to " apparant others " also God, if

all is God?

They are also, yes, but unfortunately " they " have not understood yet

that they are!

In God's world, only God exists playing " others " , so who does what to

whom?

Try doing evil acts after understanding deep within that all of us,

nature included, together, not individually, are God! One cannot!

 

Namaskar...........Pratap Bhatt

 

 

-

PRIOR POSITING

Dear Sadhak,

Excellent explanation has been given by sadhak Pratapji....Excellent!

If the parents donot know GOD how can they teach the kids?

Swamiji says if something is lying in darkness we can take a deepak

with us to see it but to see a deepak(lamp) we donot need another

deepak. Same way the objects of this whole worlds can be

seen/experienced through the " SELF " but to know this SELF we donot

need anything from the world( mind/body/intellect etc.) Only SELF

knows it SELF.

1. Where is God I have never seen Him?

He is not HE, He is " I " . When we can see/know who am I we can

see/know who is God.

Indeed, You alone know Yourself by Your own potencies, O origin of

all, Lord of all beings, God of gods, O Supreme Person, Lord of the

universe! Ch10:15

2. Who has seen Him?

All realized people have known HIM.Some claim that they have seen

HIM too.

Swami Vivekananda asked this question to everyone he met-Have you

seen God ? All answers negative except Ramkrishna Paramhansa.He said-

" Yes I have seen God as clearly as I am seeing you right now. "

Listening to this Narendra became his disciple.

3. How is He?

With a single fragment of Myself I pervade and support this entire

universe.Ch10:42

4. If I dont know how do I accept?

Then go ahead follow the path shown to us by Swamiji or any realized

soul, and know Him first, then accept.

5. God is a term coined by elders to put moral shackles over us so

that we may indulge in goodness.

What's wrong with that ? Accept God ,be righteous and be Arjuna or

donot accept Him, be Duryodhana - choice is yours.

6. There has to be some basis for his existence? What are the logics

which point towards the existence of God? From where to pick the

thread?

Start with meditation and Gita. Follow the path shown by Him in Gita-

Karma Yoga, Gyaan Yoga or Bhakti Yoga. Establish yr self in YOGA.....

 

No one can force any one to believe. Kids learn by imitation. Lead

yr own life according to Dharma,and kids will pick it up.Before

giving them tatva Gyaan(absolute knowledge),its better to sit with

them and watch Ramayana, Krishna, Mahabharata and let them learn by

the character of our Sagun Sakaar Bhagwaan(God with Forms). If they

can learn from Rama or Krishna, they will be on right path and will

get their realization at their own speed.

with lots of Love,

a sadhika

Sadhna Karigar

 

--------------------------------

Jai Hanuman

 

Oye What a question Jee!!. As good as the name of the

questioner!! " Sarphod " in Hindi means skull breaker ! " Tablachi "

means he who plays treble. Unique Jee !! Namaste Sarphodji !!

Welcome Jee ! There is music everywhere ! Who kept such a classic

name Jee ? Father? OK, pick the thread from father only.

 

How do I accept if I don't know? Accept just as you accepted some

one to be your father without knowing anything about him. Don't say

please- " that children now a days need more than belief to accept " .

That, I am afraid, is not as classic a statement as is even your

kind name. Fact is that children practice only belief and solid

belief. They are masters of belief - and teachers of entire humanity

on this subject of belief. Poor adults need proof. What kind of

proof was solicited by you in accepting some one to be your father

or some name to be mine or for that purpose by " the children of now

a days " - say son of Sarphod Tablachi, if any ??

 

Do you " know " as to who is your father and who is your mother? What

proof or rationale you can give to support your acceptance of Mr X

as your father?

 

You asked " from where to pick the thread " . I reply to you that you

pick the thread from yourself and your Dear Father. Come On !

 

Reply now! Argue !!

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

-------------------------------

Mr.Pratapji Bhatt has explained the existance of God beautifully.It

is very much in sync with Sri Sri Paramhansa Yogananda's explanation

in his books- " Autobiography of a yogi " and " Man's eternal quest "

which i have read. Also the story quoted by mahalaksmiji perfectly

describes how to know God.He is all knowing and yet unknown.He is

the Devine Intelligence that governs all that is known to us.God is

indescribebable.He can only be felt in the depths of a pure soul.

Ami Chhowala

 

--------------------------------

I still remain unsatisfied in this " divine " forum. How and why

Paramatma can not be an individual ? Is there nothing in your

scriptures like Gita which says that a devotee can also " see " God ?

My Begum Sahiba states that she read from a book of your Swami

Ramsukhdasji that Jai Dayal Goenka and Hanuman Poddar

had " darshanas " of God. Was His statement right or your reference

of good Swami is right? Why do you say that God can not be known?

How then the desire to know can be fulfilled? Whether I need an

instruction manual or not is not the focal point, in fact, to be

fair to me, answer to my questions in simple and convincing manner

is focal point! None of the " sadhaks " are convincing so far. I

asked from where to pick the thread? The responses are unclear and

incomplete.

 

Mr Mike ! Incomplete, was your answer. If you believe you were like

me in the past, then make me like you in the present. Is that not a

divine task? Is that not the role of this forum? Logic must exist.

Pointers must be there. Knowledge cant be beyond itself. What else

we are doing at present except meeting?

 

Mr Vyas - When Your so called " Nature " made oceans, Sun Moon etc

and when Nature is supreme then where is the question of God? Why

cant Fire/ Ocean/etc are called God ? If yes, then how God is

beyond knowledge? How God can not be seen as stated by Mr Pratap

Bhatt or by Vineet Sarvottam ?

 

" Sadhaks " - My Begum Sahibaa directed me to you people to satisfy

my knowledge quest ! I expected better as I am hungry for answers.

 

Sarphod Tabalchi

--------------------------------

Such a question can only arise from those who consider gross body as

real self and not the outer sheath of immortal " real self " which

contains the apriori knowledge.

 

They see God every day but do not recognise THEE. The Universal God

is Tri-Ani-Pada- three bodies in One i.e. gross, subtle and divine.

Since the entire Brahamad is God, His gross body consists of " Sun

and Moon His eyes, firmament his middle body and earth as His Feet "

and His Head is in Heaven. Thus entire Brahmand is God. Most of the

people who find gross body as real, want to imagine and visulaise

God as a human being forgetting that human beings who live on this

earth are " Thy " tiny living cells. We have several billions living

cells in our gross body, can any living cell of our body tell who we

are?

 

But those who find human soul as " real self " have no difficulty in

knowing God. His divine body is the Omniscient Supreme Soul

(Parmatma) and His subtle body " Mahadeva " is omnipotent Supreme

Spirit prevalent in all animate and inanimate life/things. His

spirit is found in Shuniya (cosmic void) of all kind of matter

consisting of atoms with unsuspected vitality. Because of His spirit

prevalent in shuniya, matter is not inert.

 

Since Man is born in the image of God, human beings are also tri-ani-

pada. Immortal soul resides in our divine body, spirit resides in

our subtle body and gross instruments in our material body. Those

who consider material gross body as the real self will always find

difficult to know formless and ineffable universal God.

 

Incidentally formeless and ineffable Universal God is Brahma- name

derived from Brahmand and other gods in human form are Iswaras.

Iswaras are not the gods of entire mankind.

with regards,

Prem Sabhlok

 

 

--------------------------------

Dear sarphod,

 

God is in nature,he can only be felt.His power is dwelling

everywhere in the nature in the form of cosmic vibratioins .If we

can tune our mind with the same frequency by way of sadhana we can

feel the godliness of the nature.How a sperm can create a body with

life is the proof of the supernatural power of the god. So far we

are only establishing the things which are existing, but we are

unable to establish about the source of the existence.

Our ultimate goal our of life is to reuntite ourselves with the

nature from where we have come.Nothing extra to be thought about

god. Living close to the nature is living near god. But the senses

attached to our body always act against our realisation

process.controling the senses is the biggest challenge of our life.

Let us teach our children about righteous way of living ,think

naturally and live naturally.

 

with regards

Ramana kothuri

 

-------------------------------

--------------------------------

The questions of Mr Sarphod Tabalchi are basic questions. I too

dont believe that the Supreme Power would not leave any pointers or

logics of His existence. From where to pick the thread ? I dont

agree with Mr Sarvottam that God can not be seen by His beloved

ones.. There has to be nothing which is beyond the powers of

Supreme. One principle came from Mike's narration and Mr Vyas'

message that before " big bang " too something existed or that if

there is creation then there must be a creator. But how that is

exclusive prorogative of God only ? Creativity is universal symptom

and authority. Spiders are also creators as per Mike Keenor. Please

elaborate with reference to Sarphod's questions. What about five

elements? Are they creators? Are not these elements playing the

transformation game? I think more serious and direct discussions are

warranted on the subject, not just belief stricken answers. First

the logics/rationales have to be exhausted.

 

Luca Brasi

----------------------------

 

Jai Kali Mata

 

What is meant by " No one knows about time!!! " Also, I am unclear as

to how this is relevant to the questions asked? Is this idea about

time, emanated out of teachings of Shraddheya Swamiji referred by

him? Kindly clarify !

 

Bandook Singh

 

--------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

 

RESUBMITTED WITH SOME CORRECTIONS

 

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

You have asked -

 

1) Where is God, I have never seen Him?

Answer: Paramatma is not an individual that you or any one can

simply see. Existence - IS-ness (sattaa maatre) has been given the

name Paramatma. Otherwise there is no name for that Existence or all

Names are only Paramatma's (Supreme Consciousness's) Names.

 

2) Who has seen Him?

Answer: Paramatma has not been seen by anyone to date and in future

too Paramatma will not be ever seen. Shraddhey Swamiji has stated

that Paramatma can be believed, not known, nor seen. Beyond this

whatever anyone says, is questionable.

 

3) How is He?

Answer: How, where, when, what, why, such questions regarding

Parmatma are pointless. That which cannot be known, it cannot be

described at all.

 

4) What are you able to know " Time " (samay). This question has been

asked regarding time (whose beginning and end is unknown to us). It

is not a question about the watch or the interval. It is not only

you, but no one understands anything about " time " . They can say

nothing about time. Then why do you believe in time? Similarly

believe and accept Paramatma, it will be nothing but gain.

 

5) This same work is also performed by men through establishment of

laws. Just as all do not believe in the law, similarly, everyone

continues to speak and share for correcting one's foolishness, and

according to one's own convenience and conformance giving that

tattva a " form " . You too can speak about the same as well.

 

6) 'Existence' itself is 'Paramaatmaa'. Where can any supportive

arguments and evidence exist to establish the existence

of 'Existence' (named Paramaatmaa)? Then where is one to get the

support of this essential elemental belief 'ASTITTVA'? Reasoning-

deliberation-discussion (tark), proof-evidence (pramaan) can be of

that thing which we know. But Paramatma is not known and cannot ever

be known, then this reasoning and seeking evidence is not in

conformance to that reasoning.

 

7) Do you want Paramatma? or do you want an instruction manual or

an aphorism (sutra) to grab hold of Paramatma? Don't get caught up

in the vicious cycle of trying to find an instruction manual.

Leaving the search, become engaged in " Chup Saadhan " (Effortless

Awareness, Discipline of Silence). All quest, and inquiry will be

quietened, will become still.

 

Please kindly forgive any limitations in the expression / words

used.

 

Vineet Sarvottam

--------------------------

 

Hari Om

 

How to know what is beyond knowledge - is the moot question.

 

Logic/Rationale !! Proof !!! Sample !! Consider the following:

 

1 .Whatever we are able to see on this earth there is always a

creator /manufacturer - be it an allpin, pen, table, house, machine,

house, bed, watch, pen, paper, cloth or aircraft. Anything visible.

Then there should be creator of oceans, fire, air, mountains, earth,

Sun. Moon, stars also !

 

God is the creator of all. - CREATOR

 

2. Whatever thing which moves , be it car, aircraft, bicycle,

machine, computer, - there is always a controller thereof. Earth

also moves. Sun/Moon also move. Oceans remain in their limits. Sun

rises and sets perfectly without fail. There must be a controller of

them also!

 

God is the controller of all- CONTROLLER

 

Q BUT A HUMAN BEING ALSO CREATES ! WHAT IS SO IMPORTANT ABOUT IT ?

 

Ans A human being cannot " create " anything! It is only " nature "

which creates! You can only change the shape thereof. You can covert

gold into ornaments or iron into sword or utensil, but you can't

create gold or iron ! Only nature provides that. You can mix two or

more elements, formulate, change shape only. You can create . You

can " discover " only.

 

To be continued.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

-------------------------

Kindly read bertrand russel

Aranha Roy

 

---------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

Let us continue further on the subject and build on what sadhakas

have said.

Please, it may sound too intellectual, but it is not! It may humble

us!

Consider this: If we need to know/study any object, the object has

to exist in

the first place.

Even if we cannot know the object, we always know it exists. This

knowing of an

existence is prior to the knowledge of its nature, attributes,

function etc.

The Universe is a collection of objects, and can be said to be one

Existence

fundamentally. Individual objects within it are individual

existences localized

in space and time over which they exist, and change to other forms,

continuing

the existences.

When we say Universe we mean the Existence only. Even the word

Universe points

to the Existence first. How do we know such Existence itself? Only

by being

aware/cognizant of it, no other way. So the Existence is awareness

of Existence.

To see what is prior to such Existence, there has to be Awareness to

know

whether or not such Existence IS. Thus Awareness as Existence has to

be

beginningless! What is after the Existence, non-existence? no,

because to say

it, there has to be Awareness of non-existence. If there is

Awareness of

non-existence, IS-ness is established. Thus that which IS, the

Existence(without

division into many objects), is eternally free of time and space

containing all

objects(names/forms) in time and space by creating mind and endowing

it with

this ability in terms of thoughts/feelings. Gita in 2:16 says the

real never

ceases to be.

Such Awareful Existence has to be most Powerful, Intelligent,

Beautiful, full of

Love and Blissful which is our experience. Can we not call this God?

God means Such Intelligence as seen through those who serve, and love

unconditionally, those who fight for Dharma, the righteousness, and

those who

preach God's message!

Evil actions come out from not realizing the Truth of Eternal

Oneness, GOD!

Namaskar.............Pratap Bhatt

 

 

 

----------------------------

My answer is simply to a question which has been indirectly

asked: " Why can't I see Him? "

Because He is the Seer. You are what you are looking for. It is

subjective awareness.

The problem lies with the word 'God' because we then suppose a

distinct being like a tribal deity. No, it is Awareness, Supernal-

consciousness. This is the Vedantic way. Find out who you really

are, not how others see you, but from your subjective perspective,

and you'll find what you're looking for.

Rishi Handa

 

----------------------------

Wonderful expression by Pratap (Bhatt) Bhai

 

Further, a simple but serious exercise could help in understanding

this.....

Sarphodji, ask yourself " who is asking these questions? "

" Who wants to know God? " ....and wait for the answer....

see what comes from deep inside.....

 

but you have to have patience.....and keep asking/repeating the

questions....

In fact when you come across any such question, ask yourself

who is this who wants to know this, who is asking the question?....

 

and wait for the answers and experience that follows.......

Best wishes

Sushil Jain

 

--------------------------------

I am a believer of God. Like one person said in the e-mail below, I

went through that 'show me God to believe' stage when I was around

22 years - 26 years. I was God lover before and again lover now. I

do not really know and I do not think with my limited ablity I can

ever know. At the same time I am not blind follower too. I am open

to all these 6 questions coming from a logical person because I had

them before too and have them now too. Before - with doubt, now -

with wonder and amazement.

 

Knowing God is a long journey. I am on the journey, I beleive I am

gradually understanding the divine concept. I am understanding them

through others, specially our ancestors, Indian scriptures. There

are great concepts, ideas and explanations, there are trash also

amongst them. I am amazed at the power of those ideas and

explanations. They attempted volumes and spent 100s of years to find

God and explain the divinity. Can I really understand all this in my

life? I doubt, which is why its a journey for me. Can I see God? It

depends on. I feel divinity in some great people, in their ideas for

humanity - around me.

 

OK, when somebody asks the question 'show me God', what they are

asking us is 'show me Jesus, Show me Shiva or show me Vishnu'. I

doubt if any one has seen God in these forms. Unless the divine

power appears so for any. As for God in its full form - Can I

imagine the distance between the Earth and the nearest star (Alpha

Centauri - about 4 light years away). I cannot imagine that

distance - however logically I think. Can I see God then - which is

full of this universe? Impossible to imagine. Then how can I see

God, unless God willingly appears to me.

 

My dear friend, answers to those 6 questions need volumes of

explanation or simply experiecing of the divine power - depending on

where you stand on the quest for God. Its a journey, so please

discuss with people who have done the research (of your 6 questions

before) and experience the facts yourself. You still go through the

oscillations of belief and disbeliefs, but if your quest is sincere

you will start seeing light at the end of tunnel.

 

The above does not give straight answers to even one of your

questions. So thanks for your time, if at all you read through this

until now.

 

Venu Gopal

--------------------------------

 

 

PRIOR POSTING

I will come at these questions in a hard nosed manner, maybe I am

blessed as I too waved aside religions when younger but traveled full

circle to The Beloved, who I dearly love with my absolute being.

 

Question 6: There has to be some basis for his existence? What are

the logics which point towards the existence of God? From where to

pick the thread?

O.K. I would ask the skeptical young, (I will call him S. ), tell me

S. how did this Godless Universe begin? He may be a brilliant

physicist, good chance though, regardless S will start to talk about

the 'big bang', the question would then be, o.k. S. was there

substance, was there energy, and was there time, before the 'Event'?

I would ask S. also when this energy of the bang runs out what

then?, I would press the point home that the Great Indians

Traditions had a good explanation for all this many millennium

before the present time, and is probably a good guide for the

scientists. Oh! I would ask my young friend S. where did the laws of

physics come from? Apparently they are unique, the laws had to be

spot on for there to be an existance, that is what the physicist

seem to be saying.

 

I would ask S. one other thing, how is it possible for a spider to

build the perfect web according to its kind, without actually being

taught.

 

I would say to S., think about it, think about it, be tenacious, be

mercilessness, and be brave, let your desire for the truth take you

where it will, just hang in there! S. my friend I was once like you,

maybe one day we can really talk.

 

With Respect and Divine Love,

 

Mike Keenor

------------------------

 

Dear Sadak,

 

1. Where is God I have never seen Him?EXAMPLES Most children know

water is H2O (Hydrogen 2 parts and Oxygen 1 part) ask them them to

show hydrogen and oxygen showing water. Next show them Yogurt (Curd)

and ask them to show milk. Bigger children ask them to show planets.

Then tell then from Sanskrit slokas-- " God is apprameyam " that which

cannot be seen or known by senses as in case of above examples, as

God can be only known by Gyana (knowledge)

2. Who has seen Him? Like in case of scientist tell as per above

examples, so does Saints tell. Only a saint (Guru) can show God as

shown to Vivekananda by Swamy Ramakrishna

3. How is He? Slokas say: Aroopamai, Aksharamai. Roopam, Akandamai,

Viratroopamai Etc. No definite shape as HE appears in the form that

the devotee wants. HE is in sounds - Om, HE is like Sri Krishna/Sri

Rama Etc, Omnipresent (That cosmic energy filled in everything), HE

is in all shapes and forms.

4. If I dont know how do I accept? Contemplate. If you accept that

there is Galaxies then contemplate what energy is performing whole

universe, like in the case of any toy needs battery, car need petrol

or fuel, computer need electricity etc. Still do not want to accept-

Leave it.

 

Jai Sri Krishna

 

baiya sathyanarayan

-----------------------------

 

All questions arise out of answers. When one asks a question

either he needs a confirmation of the answer which he already has

or he is answering his own question. When somebody is asking a

question relating to God, first he has to explain what is in his

mind when he says or thinks of GOD.

 

Einstein said that the world is an optical illusion. We think and

feel that we are separated from the rest. This is an optical

illusion. We have no direct contact with the outside world. All

the sensorial data has to filter through our optical nerve and our

mind (delusion). So we have no idea of what is exactly out there.

When one realizes this he comes closer to God or some superior

knowledge.

 

To realise that we are the debris of God is the supreme

realisation.

 

The most mysterious thing holds the most important key. Death is

the most mysterious thing. Death holds the most important key.

 

When death happens. The soul/consciousness releases out of the

cage (body � which is always subjected to three dimensional view

and

linear concept of time and space), one will realize or merge with

God

 

H. Subair

 

 

------------------------------

dear pratapji,thank u for giving us such wonderful knowledge.person

like you are really god's gift to us.

bhargav mehta

------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Re: Does God (Paramatma) Exist? Where is the Proof? What

is the logic ?

 

Through that supreme devotion he comes to know Me in reality, what

and how great I am; and thereby knowing Me in essence he forthwith

enters into My being.

 

Gita - Chapter 18 Sloka : 55

 

Sundara Raghavendran

---------------------------

 

Deaar Sadhakas, Namaste!

When someone says " where is God? I have never seen Him " , that person

has to know what God is that he expect to see, otherwise he cannot

ask the question. The question comes from the implicit assumption

that God is some imagination, ideas, knowledge, belief, etc. in the

mind and what I see out there is definitely not " God " .

So it is better to rephrase the question back to What God is first.

When that is understood, all questions by Tabalchiji will get

answered.

Consider the following dialogue:

Q: Do you have a doubt about your own existence?

A: No, I know I exist beyond a shadow of doubt. It is so obvious to

me!

Q: How do you know you exist?

A: I don't know HOW, but I am sure I DO!

Q: Do you need any help of another person, scripture, or some

logical explanation to confirm you do exist?

A: Definitely not, even if they say I don't exist, I know I do,

because it is experiential within me now. I don't even need any

sense organs-mind-intellect to tell me I exist!

 

So, it is self-evident existence, of " beingness " we all feel within

us, and by which we know what is knowable in this world as objects

of knowledge. This experience of Being Conscious is always with us,

never are we away from IT, not even in our sleep when body-mind-

world are all gone no one knows where! But I am always!

I just have to find out that ultimately this " I " is Impersonal and

is of the nature of Existence-Consciousness which we call God!

Personal God of Bhakta appears in this Impersonal!

Based on this, I can conclude that God is not a particular object

among many objects we know through sense organs, mind and intellect.

It is THE UNIQUE and objectless EXPERIENCE!

It is like our eyes who cannot see themselves and yet know their

existence beyond any shadow of doubt because SEEING takes place

automatically by just Being.

Once it is grasped, it can lead to God Realization!

Namaskar...

 

Pratap Bhatt

 

-------------------------------

 

My dear Sarphod,

There is a very beautiful story from ancient times that I have

heard from my guru. Once, a king called his minister and said, " I

want you to answer two questions.....otherwise your position will be

at stake.....first, can you show me God. Secondly, what is God

doing right now?

The minister was in anxiety. He went home, began searching

through various scriptures....wondering if he would have a job the

next day. His small son approached him, and noticing his father's

perplexity, inquired, " What troubles you, father? " The father

responded, " Oh, this is not something you would understand. " At

the child's persistence, the father finally explained. The small

child smiled, and simply said, " Father, that is so easy to

answer.....just tell the king that even a small child can answer

these inquiries, and I will then give him my responses " .

The father had no choice, as he didn't know the way to

respond. So, when the child came before the king, he requested the

king, " First, please have a pot of milk brought forth. " The king did

so. Then the child inquired, " Is there ghee in this milk? " The

king said, " Yes, it is there. " Then the child explained, " It is

there, but you cannot see it. Why can you not see the ghee? " The

king said, " There is a process by which the ghee will be brought

forth, of course, first one must churn the milk into butter, then

the butter is slowly heated until the ghee rises to the

surface......only after one patiently follows this process will he

see the ghee. " As the king was speaking, slowly realization came

into his heart, that similarly, one cannot demand to see God at this

moment....there is a process. One who's heart is not pure, who

does not have love and devotion, cannot see the Lord, but He will

certainly reveal Himself to those who are willing to accept the

process of " bringing forth the ghee " .

The child then said, " You are asking me what God is doing.

That is putting me in the postion of teacher, and you as disciple.

So, is it appropriate for you to be sitting on your throne, if you

are learning from me? " The wise King immediately pleced the child

on the throne, and sat in front of him, ready to try to understand

his next lesson. " This is what God is doing " ....he said. " He is

taking someone from a low position and putting him into a high

position, according to the results of his work, and taking someone

else from a high position and putting him into a low position. "

The king was very pleased with the child's answers, and rewarded him

and his father.

So, one may say, " I don't accept such simplistic

responses " .....well, then, such a person will never see the Lord,

unless and until he is fortunate enough to get the association of a

sadhu, by whose association one's heart melts. When one truly

comes into contact and develops some sukrti by contact with a God

consscious person, there is no material, anaytical way to explain

what happens. It is beyond our mundane intelligence, our ability to

analyze. So, simply pray for the youth you are hoping to guide,

and gradually perhaps the mercy of the sadhus will come to them.

It is not a mechanical process.

I hope my words have been gentle, encouraging, and helpful.....it

is truly a sadness which we all share as parents if our children

become somewhat agnostic or doubtful of the underestanding of the

Lord's presence, and the need for ancient, eternal tradition. We

can only pray to be the best examples of loving, patient friends for

them that we can possibly be.

 

respectfully,

Mahalaksmi Dasi

 

-------------------------------

Sarphod,

 

Read Paramahansa Yogananda's book " the Autoibgraphy of a Yogi "

published by Self Realization Fellowship, Los Angeles, CA.

 

Haley H. Haynes

--------------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

In this posting I would like to build on my previous post.

We as parents must deeply understand the truth of who we are, what

is the nature of world and God first. Then only we can explain to

our children. I would shy away to tell children that because it is

said in our scriptures, you have to believe in God being such and

such.

 

We can begin on the path of knowledge with the premise. That which

always IS irrespective of time, location or cause, is Truth. Truth,

thus, cannot be denied and has to be our continuous experience

always, not some states we experience that come and go, rather That

in which all states of experiences happen.

 

In the beginning it may sound like intellectual, but understanding

of that which always IS, has to be our real nature, or Reality of

whatever we all seem to experience dawns on us sooner rather than

later. What is Reality, then?

If we continue to inquire, we may find that whether I am in joyful,

or painful or sad or indifference or even in depressed

situations, " I am " always present and " knowingness " of these various

situations I am in is also always present too, which I never notice

due to my attachments/aversions to situations. These situations

eventually disappear but not " I " .

What is the nature of this I that we all say I when referring to

ourselves? Whatever it is, for sure it IS! This ISNESS-I is the most

certain experience and is Truth. Even if I see illusion, I or seeing

is the truth. This seeing then is communicated as I see an object(or

hear, taste, smell, touch, think, feel etc). I and seeing is

synanymous as consciousness.

 

Now extend this to outer world. Regardless of objects we perceive

out there, Being Conscious of them is the only truth of our

experience. Thus, alleged external world is nothing but ONE

Undivided/Whole Existence/Consciousness(Absolute) in our experience.

Mind is given to us to divide the Existence into different objects

for practical and Divine play. When we come to this understanding,

our attitude towards world changes to one of dispassion, devotion

and to serve it as God, in whatever ways we can. We see God

everywhere our eyes fall upon!

This is God relization.

Namaskar.............Pratap Bhatt

 

GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES:

1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify their doubts

related to Gitaji shlokas. Therefore, responses which further

clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be posted.

2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to

substantiate your response.

3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the

extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas

4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting

sadhaka's time.

5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only.

6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other

organizations.

7. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone

number, address etc.

8. Please do not address the response to a particular individual

since the message is going to the entire group.

9. Due to the large readership, all responses may not be posted.

10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if content

is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the group.

11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth,

westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use to Sanskrit

words only, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit bracketed

wherever possible.

 

MODERATOR

Ram Ram

------------------------

 

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Posted

My question is that how to prove that there exists a super natural

power called " God " ? At least how to explain that. How to correlate

His existence with the character of the world? Children now a days

need more than belief to accept. Can there be any way vide which we

can establish that God exists. If some body says say :

1. Where is God I have never seen Him?

2. Who has seen Him?

3. How is He?

4. If I dont know how do I accept?

5. God is a term coined by elders to put moral shackles over us so

that we may indulge in goodness.

6. There has to be some basis for his existence? What are the logics

which point towards the existence of God? From where to pick the

thread?

 

Sarphod Tabalchi

 

 

NEW POSTING

 

Dear " Sadhaks " (?)

 

Why my simple questions are not getting answered. Shashikalajee

asked me some questions, instead of replying to me. I , upon the

advice of my Begum Saahiba humbly replied to her. Now instead of

responding to me, she has given a conversation between a son and his

mother. My Begum is insisting to me that I should again and again

read that. OK I will do that. But let me answer her another

question. I have not desired to smell " flower of sky " , because it

does not exist. Sometimes I feel that both my Begum Sahibaa and you

Sadhaks have lost mind. What a funny question Shashikalajee has

asked. How can I desire or talk or know about a thing which doesn " t

exist? This is my basic fundamental and solid argument. Vyas N B is

giving indicators which require me to think. I am thinking. But the

best among you is Mike Keenor. He told me to remain solid. He

adviced me to remain tenacious, merciless and hang on. I am hanging

on. But then why Vineet Sarvottam told me lies? Varun Paprunia gave

him a fitting reply. Varun - you are very good. This Pratap Bhatt

is rebuking me. Why? What is my fault. On one hand you are simply

giving me round round answers. On other hand you are passing

judgement. Is this a conduct of a sadhak. Please reply to me. Or

say - none of you have capacity to answer my simple questions. My

Begum Sahibaa has already started crying. Have mercy on her at

least. But Mike praised me. He called me " brilliant " .

 

Waiting for answers.

 

Sarphod Tabalchi

---------------------------

We all struggle with these questions. The answers I found logical is

this: There is something beyond mind and matter. Some will call that

something Omnipotent, Omniscient, Omnipresent. Others will call it

random nothing. Another question one hears is why do I want to know

That Something. To Know, or to Control it? Here in lies the paradox

and answer: If it is to know only: He is right there with you,

within you: The Life, Love Peace. If it is to control so that we

control our surrounding: That is the struggle of Ego. Arjuna had to

see the Universal form to get over the final hurdle.

Jay Shree Krishna.

 

Hemendra Parikh

-------------------------------

Dear devotees of Lord Krishna,

The discussion is interesting. I learned the gita much better after

seeing the life experience of a realized lady, who had darshan of

Lord Krishna ( first darshan of Lords feet after chanting a sloka

from 10 th chapter of Gita for 30,000 times continuously for 30

days ). Her conversations with the Lord have been recorded in

Tamil, and can be shared with the group if interested.

With kind regards,

Sincerely,

P.Vivekanandan

-------------------------------

 

Try Brahmacharya ( the vow of celibacy in thought, word and deed, by

which one attains Self-realisation or reaches Brahman) and you will

see for yourself the value.

 

The Srutis declare: " Naayam Atma balaheenena labhyah - This Atman is

not attainable by a weak man. " In the Gita you will

find: " Yadichhanto brahmacharyam charanti - That desiring which

Brahmacharya is performed " (Chap. VIII-11). " Trividham narakasyedam

dvaram nasanamatmanah; kamah krodhastatha lobhastasmad etat trayam

tyajet - O Arjuna! Triple is the gate of the hell, destructive of

the Self; lust, wrath and greed: therefore let man renounce these

three " (Chap. XVI-21). " Jahi satrum mahabaho kamarupam durasadam -

Kill this powerful enemy, passion, by the observance of

Brahmacharya " (Chap. III-43).

 

If we are determined to attain the goal of life by leading a pure

life, we must keep this mind busily engaged in Divine thoughts,

concentration, meditation, study and service of humanity.

 

It is difficult to eradicate lust. But you need not despair even a

bit. Have faith in God, in His Name and in His grace. Lust cannot be

completely rooted out of the mind except by the grace of the Lord.

You are bound to succeed if you have faith in Him. The Divine Grace

is needed. God helps those who help themselves.

 

Until man continues to cling to worldliness, Paramatma cannot be

grasped by him.

 

You can read more about this in the " Easy Steps to Yoga " by Sri

Swami Sivananda.

chirag almoula

 

--------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

 

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

Tabalchiji, with all the respect for you and questions, I may point

out that no one can make anyone see anything let alone God if that

person doesn't want to see. It seems like you may be insistent upon

seeing God in the way you want to see.

Please forgive me if I am wrong, but as a friend I am saying. It

seems like you may not have read the postings with open mind, with

the desire to know the truth. Open mind doesn't mean accepting, it

means you must give a fair reading/hearing and then asking pertinent

questions or raise doubts based on what is read. Here your responses

indicate you have decided that God cannot exist for you if you

cannot see or have some logic to prove God's existence. One has to

see that " seeing God " means deep understanding of intuitive nature

in this context where mind being limited cannot comprehend. It has

to be prepared to be open. Our conditioned mind is incapable of

grasping truth.

Some of us provided solid logic, but it still fell short to make you

see the pointers.

I said one cannot say " I don't see God " without knowing what God he

is looking that he cannot find. One has to know what one wants to

see, right? One can say " I don't know God, tell me what/where I

should look, and how to recognize " . It is different than show me

God, right?

Once again, God is the Conscious/Intelligent Existence as reflected

in our experience of " I am " right now as you read these words. In

first posting, dialogue was used to illustrate it as a solid proof

one cannot deny.

There are ways to experience God for which senses-mind-intellect is

not capable like they are for knowing objects. Nevertheless, there

is proof of God more reliable than that.

But this point didn't make any impression.

I request you with humility to re-read responses again and see what

happens!

Namaskar..............Pratap Bhatt

-------------------------------

Hare Krishna

 

Okay Mr. Sarphod,

 

Let's put God's existence out of equation for a moment and only

discuss about sample/logics/rationales w.r.t. YOUR existence.

 

I AM

 

Well, you don't have any doubt in your existence, right? Your body

has changed and it is rapidly changing every second. But Mr.

Sarphod, is you also changing with the body? You are certainly not

changing with it because if you were changing then who would have

known the change in body? You are that changeless element who knows

the change in body. Isn't it? Childhood, youth, old age are the

changing phases of the body but you are that changeless element who

is witness to all these changes. It is a law that only a changeless

element can perceive the ever-changing element. My question - What

is the basis of your never-changing existence? If you consider

body's existence as your existence then you are defying all logic,

because body is changing every second!!!

 

I and MINE

 

It is a law that whatever is mine, it is never I. For example you

consider your house, car, wife, children etc. as mine but you never

consider them as I. But in the case of body you say 'my hands, my

legs, my stomach, my ears, my eyes, my throat etc.' and

simultaneously you also consider it as 'I' e.g. I am not feeling

well. You establish two transversal relationships with the body,

that of 'I' and 'MINE'. Whichever thing is mine it is always apart

(separate) from you, and that thing which is separate from you, how

can it be I? This body is also apart from you but still you call it

as I. Is this logical?

 

Mr. Sarphod, now I wish to see you. Can you show me yourself???

Ohh... please don't show me that body which you claim it as mine. I

want to see that Mr. Sarphod who claims the body as mine. In other

words, I want to see that element which you refer to as I?

 

Before that I am eager to know whether you have ever seen yourself.

According to you anything that exists is perceptible. So Mr.

Sarphod, with which instrument have you seen yourself?

 

If you have not seen yourself then, well ..... do you exist ?????

 

And at last one more question- Whose name is Sarphod - body or

yourself?

 

Mr. Sarphod, with your logics/samples/rationales etc., first prove

 

1. Your existence.

2. The basis of your existence.

3. The instrument with which you have seen/felt your existence.

 

Then we will also discuss about God's existence....

 

As Sarphodji is contemplating over his existence, in the mean time,

those sadhaks whose faith in God has dwindled with his questions,

they are requested to read this Sadhaka posting

sadhaka/message/2108

 

Hare Krishna

Varun P. Paprunia

-------------------------------

 

Jai Hanuman

 

(Shrimad Bhagvad Geeta- Marathi Edition- By Saint Gyaaneshwarji-

Chapter 13- Kalyaan- By Narainduttji Gaur )

 

Jeeva ( J) (We all- as referred in BG 15:7) :

 

Mom pls tell me , when I was born?

 

Maya , Mother Nature, Prakrati, Illusion (As referred in BG 7: 13/14)

( M ) :

 

( Irritated) What non sense! Is it some thing to be told? (By a Mom

to Son?)

 

J: If mother doesn't tell, who will?

 

M: How to tell you? I came only after you !

 

J: Typical Mom ! Means- I came first and then you? Surprising? Isn't

it?

 

M: You won't understand. Be silent and sleep!

 

J: Come On ! First me ..! And then You ...!! (How can it be?) Pls

tell me the story ! Please !!

 

M: I told you. You won't understand! Many big people even could not.

 

J: Ok ! Then my Father can let me understand. Take me to Him, please.

 

M: ( Curtly) Stop this song of Father, Father. Your Father is Father

only for the name sake.In fact, I have to do every thing.

 

J: Does He not do anything?

 

M: What can He do? He is old, ancient, poor fellow (eternal) ! Then

totally actionless! Absolutely non-doer! Neither hands, nor legs,

nor eyes, nor ears! Nothing in fact! Look Kid ! Whatever colour ,

form etc of the world which you are seeing is my miracle, my form,

my competence, my work ! Ok? Your Father has neither any form, nor

any beauty. What beauty He can impart to the world?

 

J: But all say that He is the real Creator. See Mom! Whatever is my

Father, He is my Father! Ok? His insult...??

 

M: Insult! What insult? Whose insult? One who does not have any

caste or creed, any family or varna, any city or village- what can

be His respect or disrespect?

 

J: How bad He will feel, if He listens to what you are saying?

 

M: Even if He gets annoyed, what can He do? One who neither moves,

nor walks, nor travels, nor laughs, nor cries, nor speaks, neither

any juice, nor any taste, nor any play !!! This entire

exhibition/show I run, Dear Son !!

 

J But out there on Gate (of the circus) His name is written, O Mom !!

 

M: Ultimately you will take side of your Father only. Afterall you

are His son!

 

J: O Mom of the Universe! Why did not you put name of yours on the

front gate of this Great Circus? ( The world)

 

M: How to put my name. This is the real trgedy. You won't

understand, Son. I, the creator and controller of uncountable

universes can not do any thing by my name!! (Ramcharitmanas- 5/21/4)

 

J: Don't be sad and sorry Mom! What is the matter?

 

M: It is very secret, Son! If by seeing my banner outside the gate,

if somebody wants to meet with me, he will be disappointed. Son!

Please understand my pain. One is lazy ( does nothing), has no

organs, is actionless- those who want to search such (an element)

person , they search Him merely by His name! (Ramcharitmanas-

1/26/2). But to me, even when I am controlling entire sentient and

insentient world, if some body wants to search, CANNOT find! Cannot

search.

 

J: Why not Mom?

 

M: (With tears in her eyes) Because, in reality, I don't exist. I am

false. I am asat. I am non existent. My " not being " is my " being " .

Whatever is not- I am that. I am no-thing.

 

J: And whatever is there, that is who? Who is that?

 

M: He is your Father, Son!

 

J: (In mind, talking with himself only, Son thinks/says - Hats off

to you Mom! When you don't exist, then this is the scene of the

world that even Lord Shiva , Brahma are afraid of you -

Ramcharitmanas 7/71/8- had you existed " actually " Mom then.....)

 

O my No-thing Mom! When you don't even exist , then on whose power

you run this circus called the world?

 

M: What to tell you, Son? I can tell you only this much that, of

Whose a mere flicker of eyebrow, I do rule the uncountable

universes, I can't dare/ don't have courage to face Him. I do run

this circus only on His strength.

 

J : O My Unconquerable Mom! My hundreds of Pranaams to you. Bless

me , O Mom! So that I may get my Father!!

 

While bowing and doing Pranaams to his mother, Jeeva became

tranquilised and then in the background divine music played-

 

" MAAMEVA YA PRAPADYANTE, MAYAMETAM TARANTI YE "

 

(BG 7:14)

 

He was He only!

 

Namaste Jee.

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

-------------------------------

-Shri Hari-

 

My dear Sarphodji,

 

A few points to consider, I have said I have been touched by the

Divine,(just one way of putting it), such Grace is life changing, I

could be lying or be mad,(I tell the truth), but I know just by

reading the things fellow Sadhaks have written that I AM NOT ALONE.

Some people come to Bhagwan with ease and joy others take the path of

fire so to speak, (the hard miles).

 

In the west there is an expression,'The Dark Night of The Soul', and

yes! If it is known in the west it is most absolutely known in the

Indian Traditions.(I think Arjuna's predicament reflects that),I will

stay using the terminology to which I am most familiar.

You say you are deserted, you are not deserted, the Brethren have not

deserted you, and in the Darkest Moment of the Soul, there is a light

shining, that light comes from 'That', which will wash away you

tears, 'That' which will break your heart so that you can be

mended. Your arguments are not solid dear Brother, not to those that

have felt the embrace of The Beloved. Your inflexibility, combined

with your determined search, may well introduce you to 'The Dark

Night...', the very ONE you rebuked the most, will be the one that

rescues you. I speak from experience not from books.

 

With Respect and Divine Love,

 

Mike Keenor

 

 

 

 

 

PRIOR POSTING

Hari Om

 

If sadhaks can concentrate on giving short pointers / rationale

which establishes the existence of Supreme Power it will help all

in being definitive, have reference material and it will also

strengthen faith. Ego, Intellect and Mind don't let you agree that

easily. And who knows who may need in the coming turbulent era of

Kaliyug, that is lacking in faith and belief. Let us get united.

 

From discourses of Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj (Taat Shree), whom I

have solely relied on for a number of years -

 

Every human being wants the following:

 

1) To " live for ever " . This is desire for SAT (existence). Fear of

death is the indicator of that desire.

2) To know every thing. No one wants to be unknowlegeable. This is

desire for CHIT (Knowledge).

3) To be happy. No one wants to be unhappy. This is desire for

ANANDA.

 

Any doubt Mr Sarphod? Now if there is a desire then the element to

fulfill that desire must also be there. There must be some one /

some element which enables you to " live for ever " , to be all knowing

and to be ever blissful. Had such an element not existed, we would

not have had the desire for the same.

 

Paramatma is SAT-CHIT-ANANDA.(Sachchidananda)

 

Raam! Raam!! Raam!!!

 

To be continued.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

------------------------------

 

Dear Tabalchi ji,

 

According to J. Krishnamurti " modern so called educated " people want

a little bit of intellectual amusement and therefore they indulge in

meaningless discussions about God and such matters. God cannot be

discussed in this manner, because That Absolute Truth (give

It/Her/Him any name) is beyond description.

Your all the six questions are like the enquiries of a " full

stomach " tourist without an iota of appetite going through the menu,

or reading it aloud with his co-friends. If you are really thirsty

you will not indulge in such childish questions about water, but

will try your best to drink it.

 

I suggest you read Uncommon Wisdom and other books by Dr Capra (a

physic scientist) who has quoted from our Sanskrit literature about

God, or read A Brief History of Time by Hawking Stephens (well known

expert on dark hole and universe) to know the concept of time and

space. At least do go through some writings by Nobel laureate Dr

Edington (a scientist). Only then, you can be a little serious about

exploring the great Absolute Truth. Become " jyan-vijyan-triptah " and

only then we can walk together on this spiritual quest.

 

Regards,

Suresh C. Sharma

------------------------

 

Sir,

You are asking the oldest question ever being asked. See around

you, a sperm has made you upto approximately 6 feet. Who designed

this project and process. Your father and mother only are tools.

Inquire within and get the answer.

 

surender syal

--------------------------------

 

Mitro,

Why has this God become famous as " HE " why not " she " or " IT "

or " Nothing " ? Today's generation will not believe in gibberish

bakwaas . The paradox is every religion, every saint says that God

is ONE. But even within Hindus philosophy we see thousands of gods

(many names and forms). If God is One then why all the differences

and the fights? How come? Ramchander Homma

 

------------------------------

I agree with Luca Brasi that I should be fairly replied. I have

asked a lot of questions. I want proof/logic and I want to know How

is that Supreme. I want sample. I want rationale. My Begum Saahibaa

also told me that I am head breaker like your Shashikaljee told me.

But I never agreed with her so far. I never admitted this version.

I am not head or skull breaker. My name suggests that I am mind

fixer. Any way how the name matters? I am what I am. I accept my

parents because even if I dont remember my birth, they remember

that. They know that I am their child. I can see them. I can feel

them. I can experience them. I can recognise them. That is why they

are my parents. Where is God? How can I accept God on the grounds

that since I did not know my parents at the time of birth and I

accepted hence I should accept God also. Children are children. They

dont understand. But I am adult. I understand. My Begum Sahibaa

could not satisfy me and hence she asked me to get in touch with you

She said you will satisfy me.I checked with her that I am not

satisfied even after, because I have MOST SOLID arguments, then

what? Even my father deserted me because he could not satisfy me.

She said such situation will not arise. If I cant see , I cant

accept. Prove to me how one can accept without seeing or feeling or

experiencing or logic or rationale or basis. At least I should feel

or experience. Even if my parents were dead at the time of birth,

still I would accept that because how can I come without them on

this earth. What is your answer? Pratap or Vineet or Mike or

Shashikala. My Begum Sahibaa said few things regarding observations

of Vineet also. Please reply- Sadhaks of this self

proclaimed " Divine " site. Dont go by my name. Even my Begum

Saahibaa complains regarding my name. What can I do regarding my

name Jee?

 

Sarphod Tabalchi

 

 

PRIOR POSTING

Hare Krishna

 

Sarphodji,

 

Not only can Parmatma be an individual he can also be a fish

(Matsya-avatar), a tortoise (Kachchap-avatar), a pig (varaha-avatar),

a half lion-half man (Narsimha-avatar) and what not!!!

According to Gita, not only can a devotee see God but also know Him

and also enter into Him.

 

Arjuna said

O universal form, O thousand-armed Lord, I wish to see You in Your

four-armed form, with diadem on your head with club, wheel, conch and

lotus flower in Your hands. I long to see You in that form. (11.46)

 

Sanjaya said

The Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krishna, having spoken thus to

Arjuna, displayed His real four-armed form and at last showed His

two-armed form, thus encouraging the fearful Arjuna. (11.50)

 

Lord Krishna said:

My dear Arjuna, this form of Mine you are now seeing is very

difficult

to behold. Even the demigods are ever seeking the opportunity to see

this form, which is so dear.

Neither by the study of Vedas, nor by penance, nor by charity, nor

even by rituals can I be seen in this form (with four-arms), as You

have seen Me.

O valiant Arjuna, through single-divided devotion, however, I can be

seen in this form (with four-arms), known in essence and even entered

into.

My dear Arjuna, he who performs all his duties for Me, depends on Me,

is devoted to Me, has no attachment, and is free from malice towards

all beings, reaches Me. (11.52-55)

 

Please give special attention to the last 2 verses. This will answer

your question of knowing and seeing God.

 

Yes, I have also read the same in Swamiji's book which your wife has

stated. I consider it to be true because I believe in Swamiji's

words.

 

Hare Krishna

Varun P. Paprunia

------------------------------

 

Hari Om

 

No! Sarphodji. Those who want to learn should read carefully and

should learn also to be patient. All sadhaks upto now have given

excellent observations. I have also given you logics/pointers and

will

continue to give you till you get satisfied. I agree with Luca that

there must be logics/rationale existing. It is another matter, as Mr

Vineet stated, that they are pointless once you proceed ahead. But

still questions are questions and your insistence , though, odd but

still should be respected. Your " Begum Sahibaa " appears to have

directed herself to peace. I wish you understood the hidden affection

in the in the message of Mike Keenor to you. Here are more

logics/pointers to you:

 

3. In life, we always find a higher person than ourselves. In every

field a higher person than one is existing. See around you, you will

find this statement to be true. Even the President of USA can not say

" I am the Highest " . Always a better /higher person than you is

existing. Now where does this " highness " end. If there is sense of

highness , then there must be an element which is " highest " . God is

that element. God is the HIGHEST.

 

4. You always need some " shelter " to survive. In the childhood you

need shelter of parents, teacher, etc. Then of education, ability,

wife, money, home, employers, what not. In old age, you need wife,

children, stick, doctor, medicines, health etc Sujects change but not

the need for shelter.. If there is consistent need for shelter , then

there must be an element existing of whose shelter is the ultimate

shelter. Is not it Mr Sarphod. ( You should argue on such in

principle

points. Check up with you Begum Sahibaa.) ? If you are thirsty ,

there

must be water existing on the planet. Now when you need always some

shelter or other, then there must be an element which can be

described

as " Highest Shelter available " ! God is " PARAM ASHRAYA DATA " Giver

of that shelter. If you take shelter of God, no other shelter will be

necessary,

 

5. We always want to be perfect. There is no doubt on that. But there

is also no doubt regarding the fact that we err. In fact " to err is

human " -this saying is prevalent on this planet from time immemorial.

Now if there is a desire to become perfect then there must exist an

element which is most perfect. Did you ever hear that there was a

difference of a fraction of a second even in timings of Sun rise and

Sun set? Is not everything moving to the perfection? Who can be more

perfect except God. God is the MOST PERFECT.

 

To be continued till you say " I am satisfied "

 

As regards your observation that " Nature " also creates/controls-

answer is that whether you believe that nature has " knowledge " ? If

yes, then that nature is our God. In our religion ( I don't know your

religion) SHAKTI is God also. But if according to you , the INERT

NATURE has no knowledge, then you have to accept God. Can inert

nature

take care of so many souls, operate Law of Karma, provide food to so

many creatures? If Yes- I don't mind calling that Nature to be God.

After all it is a matter only of " terminology " . If no then you must

accept that IF THERE IS DESIRE / NEED IN YOU TO BE PERFECT OR TO TAKE

SHELTER OR TO SEEK HIGHNESS then there exists an element to fulfil

that desire. That element is called " GOD/ PARAMATMA " . Logical ?

Does

it appeal to your logic Mr Sarphod? Check up with your Begum Sahibaa

and come back. Your arguments shall exhaust, not our arguments- be

sure on this. After all you are on GT Site !

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

-------------------------------

 

Dear Sarphod:

 

Wonderful! I like your guts to put this question across!! I was

startled to start with and even alarmed as I contemplated " thanks

for triggering the turbulence from which proceeds the peace as

always. "

 

Son goes to father and asks, " Father, what is God? " Father

answered, " Whatever drives your life, whatever sustains your life

and whatever absorbs your life is verily God my child. Think about

It! " The father was wise enough not to instruct what God is. The son

promptly contemplates in what his father said and came back, " Father,

fear drives all the lives. Fear sustains all the lives. Fear absorbs

all the life. Therefore, fear should be the god. " Father

remarks, " Good job! Keep thinking. " The son not knowing whether his

revelation was conclusive or not continues to contemplate. Son comes

back to father and declares, " Father, desire drives all the lives,

desire sustains all the lives and desire absorbs all the lives.

Therefore, the desire should be the god. " Father remarks again, Good

job! Keep thinking. " The son does not feel the conclusive

appreciation regarding the god - is it fear or desire? He continues

to contemplate and realizes that, the happiness drives all the

lives. Happiness sustains all the lives. And, happiness absorbs all

the lives. Therefore happiness should be the god.

 

Now he does not go back to his father as he has already felt the

wisdom behind his father's remarks. God is not something that can be

taught to, or preached to or transferred to anybody. It is the

notion within ... it is the imagination within ... it is the

deliberation within ... it is the understanding within ... it is the

appreciation within ... IT IS THE PRESENCE WITHIN in its core. The

son, accepting the challenge from his father to use the body, senses

and mind blessed to him, continues to contemplate.

 

He has seen the driving force, sustenance strength and absorption

power in the fear, in the desire as well as in the happiness. He

sees that the three divinities of creation, sustenance,and

absorption transcend the boundaries of his existential fears,

desires and happiness altogether integrating the whole universe of

knowns as well as unknowns - manifested as well as unmanifested -

mitigating the differences that were once prominent amongst the

three phases of life - fear, desire and happiness.

 

Then starts another dilemma - who is the god amongst these three

divinites that seem to determine what life is? Driving Force or

Sustenance Strength or Absorption Power? Again, he approaches his

father, the wisdom established within to contemplate on the dilemma.

 

The driving force comes first to claim the unclaimed post of The

God. On ruthless examination, the driving force starts wondering

aloud that it itself should have been driven by something else. The

new driving force wonders the same and so on. The driving force digs

up an infinite legacy of its own kind beneath lost in the oblivion

of the past. It returns back in frustration not withstanding what

the driving force could really be.

 

The absorption power jumps in next to claim the still unclaimed post

of The God. Again, the wisdom starts the same gruelling scrutiny.

The power under sharp vigilence starts whithering away to wonder if

it absorbs everything there should be something to absorb itself.

The new absorbing power wonders the same way and so on. The

absorption power piles up an infinite heirarchy of its own kind

above lost in the oblivion of the future. It returns back in

frustration not withstanding what the absorption power could ever

be.

 

The empty throne is still awaiting to be filled. The sustenance

strength walks to claim the post in confidence. The valiant wisdom

does its job with no resistance subjecting the life sustenance

power in suspension of its examination. The sustencance strength

which provides strength to all the life around starts wondering what

is the source of its own strength and sustenance. The new source of

the strength resounds the same wonder what could be the source of

strength. The sustenance strength keeps jumping from on fold to

another all around the universe that is within its control to seek

itself folding itself in infinitude lost in the vast presence. It

returns back in frustration not withstanding what the sustenance

strength could ever be.

 

Seeing the crest-fallen champions of life not realizing their own

true nature around, the throne of The God starts fading into

silence. The wisdom starts wondering in itself. Is it not the

driving force as well as the sustenance strength as well as the

absorption power all the time all around? Suddenly, the demarkation

between the three divinities that was once so thick and opaque

starts giving away to reveal the force, strength and power of

creation, sustenance and absorption in itself and hence in every

thing that is perceieved ever.

 

The realized wisdom gets back and declares. Never ever ignore your

fears. Never ever ignore your desires. Never ever ignore your

happiness. Ever be with your fears, desires and happiness as you

are. Then you see the unison amongst your fears, desires and joys

and hence in all your emotions, relations and existence within as

well as around. Then you see all the boundaries separating your

notions dissolve in the very wisdom where you dwell upon. Being what

you are in spite of your apparent variances of life naturally

transcends all the barriers built by your cognition across

everything to reveal THE ONE everywhere and everywhence. Then the

very post of God does not appear to be real anymore which seemed the

most troublesome question to start with.

 

God remains evasive till you drift away from what you are in vain

searching whatever IT could be! Therefore, my dear friend, better

pause in your frenzy search and look around and look within … be

what you are. Then God is everything … not just a notion ... not

just a faith ... not just a doubt ... but, everything ... EVERYTHING

WITH NO EXCEPTION. If you remain what you are, IT is all-inclusive.

If you attempt to search for it, IT becomes all-exclusive. In other

words, IT is EVERYTHING in your presence; and IT is NOTHING in your

perception.

 

Respects.

 

Naga Narayana

--------------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

Let us address one aspect of Tabalchiji's issues with responses of

sadhakas received so far!

To be able to see God, one needs to recognize God upon seeing

anything, right? If one says I don't see God, one is looking for what

one " thinks " God is in whatever one is looking at. For God to be

" that " it will be very very limiting to God, because what we think is

so limited even if it is some grand image of God. That is not

logical, right?

Now when Swamiji says Goenkaji and Poddarji had darshana of God, what

does it mean?

It means the deep understanding of what God is and subsequent

realization that " my God, there is nothing else but only God IS in

the disguise of the Cosmos " that sees through that individual.

The individual's vision has changed entirely, where he/she saw

objects of the world before, now he sees only Divinity in the same

forms. It is our experience that what we believe out there, we tend

to see only that through our being closed minded. Similarly when we

understand God, this " Understanding " opens up the very mind who sees

God everywhere, individual is merely a channel God is using.

Other aspects of issues will see later....

Namaskar............Pratap Bhatt

 

------------------------

-Shree Hari-

 

Sarphodji,

 

Great! You are still questioning brilliant!

I have read the responses from our brethren, great beauty full of

divine love. But I will stick to the hared nosed roll,(look past it

dear friend).

If someone asked me to show her an oak tree, and I gave her an acorn,

what would she say I wonder? Of course the blueprint for the whole

tree is in the acorn, one also one wonders, did the first oak tree

have an acorn or the first acorn have an oak tree?

Question 6 if resolved is the platform upon which all the other

question can be answered it seems to me.

I can only tell you how I came to be touched be The Divine, that was

by my search into paradoxes, like the universe, like the acorn.

I once mentioned a man I met in unusual circumstance. It was about

3am

in a large air traffic control room, very few controllers in the room

at that time. I was waiting to get clearance to work on a console(to

do annual technical checks). There across the room was this

controller, He had his headset on,(with a long lead), he was

performing asanas, (within the restriction), " trying to stay awake? "

I

asked, " no he boomed " , we started to talk. We had 'Much' in common,

we

developed a dialog from then on , it was he who suggested I read

Bhagavad Gita,(I humbly suggest you do also).

He once said to me with his booming humorous voice, " Mike if people

could her us they would think we're 'Lunatics'.

What we had in common at the root, was our hunger for the truth, and

the courage, 'to ride the tiger " .

We were an unlikely pair from a world view, he was a Sri Lankan, me

an

Anglo Celt, especially if one could here us talking, but we were

brothers of the spirit.

There is much I could talk of, but I must bow to the respected

moderator.

 

With Respect and Divine Love,

 

Mike Keenor

-

Mr Sarphod ! So you are a male as well as married ! Very good Jee !

 

It is a good habit to act in accordance with advice your Begum. How

did she leave you alone? Do you have books of Swamiji Ramsukhdasji

Maharaj at your home? Your “Begum†had those books according to

you.

Did you read them? Or your Begum only reads them? By the way did

you ever think about or did you ever have a desire to smell “

flower

of sky†? Why did you not think about flower of sky or desired to

smell it ? Reply. This is a question to you. Also reply if you always

believe only after “seeing†?

 

Let us know as to how you can get satisfied according to you?. What

methodology suits your mind.? How do you generally feel regarding

this world,mind, intellect, body etc etc ? How according to you such

a

big world is operating ? Do you think there are some laws governing

this world? Keep also giving your observations , counter arguments on

EACH AND EVERY response which is given to you. Otherwise how will we

know whether the cure has taken place? Understood? You can consult

your Begum also before replying to my queries. Always tell us what

your Begum told you and what is your own observation. Why don’t you

tell your Begum also to become member and start Satsanga? Will that

not be better? What is her kind name, Jee?

 

Namaste Jee.

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

 

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

Another aspect of issues raised by Tabalchiji can be answered based

on

what sadhakas already have echoed in their responses.

The most important thing is to know that God is not " something " ,

" somewhere " and " some times " . It is at the core of our being, an

intimate experience which is The Knowingness without anything known.

In otherwords, God cannot be known as another limited object,

nevertheless, is known as " knowingness " in us by virtue of just

being.

For example, if someone were to ask you, can you show me Love, Peace,

Compassion, Beauty, Goodness etc " out there " ? You cann't! They are

experiences within us that we attribute to things/situations etc

outside which may have triggered them. Some philosopher rightly said

" From the beginning, not a thing is! " Please, please, see the truth

of

this. We are connected to the world only through Being Conscious of

something or other which we conceptualize as subject

experiencer(mind-body), and objects experienced, both thought as

separate. Such division is not experiential.

Just as these experiences are not seen " out there " , but are truely

happening in our consciousness, God cannot be seen, as separate from

Consciousness.

Sun, for example, is nothing but the experience of light and heat,

conceptualized as " Sun " out there, for practical purpose. This is

also

true for all apparant objects of the world.

God or Consciousness or Atman, are also such conceptual words of the

most intimate Wordless Experience! They are good pointers though!

When people engage in services to help others who are victims of

disasters, diseases, violence, wars, terrorism etc etc who motivates

their actions? Unconditional Love and Goodness of the heart! People

who help to preserve natural environment, forests, animals, etc etc

are also inspired by the same Love and Goodness!

Can we not call Unconditional Love and Goodness of the heart God?

Are those who bring such disasters to " apparant others " also God, if

all is God?

They are also, yes, but unfortunately " they " have not understood yet

that they are!

In God's world, only God exists playing " others " , so who does what to

whom?

Try doing evil acts after understanding deep within that all of us,

nature included, together, not individually, are God! One cannot!

 

Namaskar...........Pratap Bhatt

 

 

-

PRIOR POSITING

Dear Sadhak,

Excellent explanation has been given by sadhak Pratapji....Excellent!

If the parents donot know GOD how can they teach the kids?

Swamiji says if something is lying in darkness we can take a deepak

with us to see it but to see a deepak(lamp) we donot need another

deepak. Same way the objects of this whole worlds can be

seen/experienced through the " SELF " but to know this SELF we donot

need anything from the world( mind/body/intellect etc.) Only SELF

knows it SELF.

1. Where is God I have never seen Him?

He is not HE, He is " I " . When we can see/know who am I we can

see/know who is God.

Indeed, You alone know Yourself by Your own potencies, O origin of

all, Lord of all beings, God of gods, O Supreme Person, Lord of the

universe! Ch10:15

2. Who has seen Him?

All realized people have known HIM.Some claim that they have seen

HIM too.

Swami Vivekananda asked this question to everyone he met-Have you

seen God ? All answers negative except Ramkrishna Paramhansa.He said-

" Yes I have seen God as clearly as I am seeing you right now. "

Listening to this Narendra became his disciple.

3. How is He?

With a single fragment of Myself I pervade and support this entire

universe.Ch10:42

4. If I dont know how do I accept?

Then go ahead follow the path shown to us by Swamiji or any realized

soul, and know Him first, then accept.

5. God is a term coined by elders to put moral shackles over us so

that we may indulge in goodness.

What's wrong with that ? Accept God ,be righteous and be Arjuna or

donot accept Him, be Duryodhana - choice is yours.

6. There has to be some basis for his existence? What are the logics

which point towards the existence of God? From where to pick the

thread?

Start with meditation and Gita. Follow the path shown by Him in Gita-

Karma Yoga, Gyaan Yoga or Bhakti Yoga. Establish yr self in YOGA.....

 

No one can force any one to believe. Kids learn by imitation. Lead

yr own life according to Dharma,and kids will pick it up.Before

giving them tatva Gyaan(absolute knowledge),its better to sit with

them and watch Ramayana, Krishna, Mahabharata and let them learn by

the character of our Sagun Sakaar Bhagwaan(God with Forms). If they

can learn from Rama or Krishna, they will be on right path and will

get their realization at their own speed.

with lots of Love,

a sadhika

Sadhna Karigar

 

--------------------------------

Jai Hanuman

 

Oye What a question Jee!!. As good as the name of the

questioner!! " Sarphod " in Hindi means skull breaker ! " Tablachi "

means he who plays treble. Unique Jee !! Namaste Sarphodji !!

Welcome Jee ! There is music everywhere ! Who kept such a classic

name Jee ? Father? OK, pick the thread from father only.

 

How do I accept if I don't know? Accept just as you accepted some

one to be your father without knowing anything about him. Don't say

please- " that children now a days need more than belief to accept " .

That, I am afraid, is not as classic a statement as is even your

kind name. Fact is that children practice only belief and solid

belief. They are masters of belief - and teachers of entire humanity

on this subject of belief. Poor adults need proof. What kind of

proof was solicited by you in accepting some one to be your father

or some name to be mine or for that purpose by " the children of now

a days " - say son of Sarphod Tablachi, if any ??

 

Do you " know " as to who is your father and who is your mother? What

proof or rationale you can give to support your acceptance of Mr X

as your father?

 

You asked " from where to pick the thread " . I reply to you that you

pick the thread from yourself and your Dear Father. Come On !

 

Reply now! Argue !!

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

-------------------------------

Mr.Pratapji Bhatt has explained the existance of God beautifully.It

is very much in sync with Sri Sri Paramhansa Yogananda's explanation

in his books- " Autobiography of a yogi " and " Man's eternal quest "

which i have read. Also the story quoted by mahalaksmiji perfectly

describes how to know God.He is all knowing and yet unknown.He is

the Devine Intelligence that governs all that is known to us.God is

indescribebable.He can only be felt in the depths of a pure soul.

Ami Chhowala

 

--------------------------------

I still remain unsatisfied in this " divine " forum. How and why

Paramatma can not be an individual ? Is there nothing in your

scriptures like Gita which says that a devotee can also " see " God ?

My Begum Sahiba states that she read from a book of your Swami

Ramsukhdasji that Jai Dayal Goenka and Hanuman Poddar

had " darshanas " of God. Was His statement right or your reference

of good Swami is right? Why do you say that God can not be known?

How then the desire to know can be fulfilled? Whether I need an

instruction manual or not is not the focal point, in fact, to be

fair to me, answer to my questions in simple and convincing manner

is focal point! None of the " sadhaks " are convincing so far. I

asked from where to pick the thread? The responses are unclear and

incomplete.

 

Mr Mike ! Incomplete, was your answer. If you believe you were like

me in the past, then make me like you in the present. Is that not a

divine task? Is that not the role of this forum? Logic must exist.

Pointers must be there. Knowledge cant be beyond itself. What else

we are doing at present except meeting?

 

Mr Vyas - When Your so called " Nature " made oceans, Sun Moon etc

and when Nature is supreme then where is the question of God? Why

cant Fire/ Ocean/etc are called God ? If yes, then how God is

beyond knowledge? How God can not be seen as stated by Mr Pratap

Bhatt or by Vineet Sarvottam ?

 

" Sadhaks " - My Begum Sahibaa directed me to you people to satisfy

my knowledge quest ! I expected better as I am hungry for answers.

 

Sarphod Tabalchi

--------------------------------

Such a question can only arise from those who consider gross body as

real self and not the outer sheath of immortal " real self " which

contains the apriori knowledge.

 

They see God every day but do not recognise THEE. The Universal God

is Tri-Ani-Pada- three bodies in One i.e. gross, subtle and divine.

Since the entire Brahamad is God, His gross body consists of " Sun

and Moon His eyes, firmament his middle body and earth as His Feet "

and His Head is in Heaven. Thus entire Brahmand is God. Most of the

people who find gross body as real, want to imagine and visulaise

God as a human being forgetting that human beings who live on this

earth are " Thy " tiny living cells. We have several billions living

cells in our gross body, can any living cell of our body tell who we

are?

 

But those who find human soul as " real self " have no difficulty in

knowing God. His divine body is the Omniscient Supreme Soul

(Parmatma) and His subtle body " Mahadeva " is omnipotent Supreme

Spirit prevalent in all animate and inanimate life/things. His

spirit is found in Shuniya (cosmic void) of all kind of matter

consisting of atoms with unsuspected vitality. Because of His spirit

prevalent in shuniya, matter is not inert.

 

Since Man is born in the image of God, human beings are also tri-ani-

pada. Immortal soul resides in our divine body, spirit resides in

our subtle body and gross instruments in our material body. Those

who consider material gross body as the real self will always find

difficult to know formless and ineffable universal God.

 

Incidentally formeless and ineffable Universal God is Brahma- name

derived from Brahmand and other gods in human form are Iswaras.

Iswaras are not the gods of entire mankind.

with regards,

Prem Sabhlok

 

 

--------------------------------

Dear sarphod,

 

God is in nature,he can only be felt.His power is dwelling

everywhere in the nature in the form of cosmic vibratioins .If we

can tune our mind with the same frequency by way of sadhana we can

feel the godliness of the nature.How a sperm can create a body with

life is the proof of the supernatural power of the god. So far we

are only establishing the things which are existing, but we are

unable to establish about the source of the existence.

Our ultimate goal our of life is to reuntite ourselves with the

nature from where we have come.Nothing extra to be thought about

god. Living close to the nature is living near god. But the senses

attached to our body always act against our realisation

process.controling the senses is the biggest challenge of our life.

Let us teach our children about righteous way of living ,think

naturally and live naturally.

 

with regards

Ramana kothuri

 

-------------------------------

--------------------------------

The questions of Mr Sarphod Tabalchi are basic questions. I too

dont believe that the Supreme Power would not leave any pointers or

logics of His existence. From where to pick the thread ? I dont

agree with Mr Sarvottam that God can not be seen by His beloved

ones.. There has to be nothing which is beyond the powers of

Supreme. One principle came from Mike's narration and Mr Vyas'

message that before " big bang " too something existed or that if

there is creation then there must be a creator. But how that is

exclusive prorogative of God only ? Creativity is universal symptom

and authority. Spiders are also creators as per Mike Keenor. Please

elaborate with reference to Sarphod's questions. What about five

elements? Are they creators? Are not these elements playing the

transformation game? I think more serious and direct discussions are

warranted on the subject, not just belief stricken answers. First

the logics/rationales have to be exhausted.

 

Luca Brasi

----------------------------

 

Jai Kali Mata

 

What is meant by " No one knows about time!!! " Also, I am unclear as

to how this is relevant to the questions asked? Is this idea about

time, emanated out of teachings of Shraddheya Swamiji referred by

him? Kindly clarify !

 

Bandook Singh

 

--------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

 

RESUBMITTED WITH SOME CORRECTIONS

 

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

You have asked -

 

1) Where is God, I have never seen Him?

Answer: Paramatma is not an individual that you or any one can

simply see. Existence - IS-ness (sattaa maatre) has been given the

name Paramatma. Otherwise there is no name for that Existence or all

Names are only Paramatma's (Supreme Consciousness's) Names.

 

2) Who has seen Him?

Answer: Paramatma has not been seen by anyone to date and in future

too Paramatma will not be ever seen. Shraddhey Swamiji has stated

that Paramatma can be believed, not known, nor seen. Beyond this

whatever anyone says, is questionable.

 

3) How is He?

Answer: How, where, when, what, why, such questions regarding

Parmatma are pointless. That which cannot be known, it cannot be

described at all.

 

4) What are you able to know " Time " (samay). This question has been

asked regarding time (whose beginning and end is unknown to us). It

is not a question about the watch or the interval. It is not only

you, but no one understands anything about " time " . They can say

nothing about time. Then why do you believe in time? Similarly

believe and accept Paramatma, it will be nothing but gain.

 

5) This same work is also performed by men through establishment of

laws. Just as all do not believe in the law, similarly, everyone

continues to speak and share for correcting one's foolishness, and

according to one's own convenience and conformance giving that

tattva a " form " . You too can speak about the same as well.

 

6) 'Existence' itself is 'Paramaatmaa'. Where can any supportive

arguments and evidence exist to establish the existence

of 'Existence' (named Paramaatmaa)? Then where is one to get the

support of this essential elemental belief 'ASTITTVA'? Reasoning-

deliberation-discussion (tark), proof-evidence (pramaan) can be of

that thing which we know. But Paramatma is not known and cannot ever

be known, then this reasoning and seeking evidence is not in

conformance to that reasoning.

 

7) Do you want Paramatma? or do you want an instruction manual or

an aphorism (sutra) to grab hold of Paramatma? Don't get caught up

in the vicious cycle of trying to find an instruction manual.

Leaving the search, become engaged in " Chup Saadhan " (Effortless

Awareness, Discipline of Silence). All quest, and inquiry will be

quietened, will become still.

 

Please kindly forgive any limitations in the expression / words

used.

 

Vineet Sarvottam

--------------------------

 

Hari Om

 

How to know what is beyond knowledge - is the moot question.

 

Logic/Rationale !! Proof !!! Sample !! Consider the following:

 

1 .Whatever we are able to see on this earth there is always a

creator /manufacturer - be it an allpin, pen, table, house, machine,

house, bed, watch, pen, paper, cloth or aircraft. Anything visible.

Then there should be creator of oceans, fire, air, mountains, earth,

Sun. Moon, stars also !

 

God is the creator of all. - CREATOR

 

2. Whatever thing which moves , be it car, aircraft, bicycle,

machine, computer, - there is always a controller thereof. Earth

also moves. Sun/Moon also move. Oceans remain in their limits. Sun

rises and sets perfectly without fail. There must be a controller of

them also!

 

God is the controller of all- CONTROLLER

 

Q BUT A HUMAN BEING ALSO CREATES ! WHAT IS SO IMPORTANT ABOUT IT ?

 

Ans A human being cannot " create " anything! It is only " nature "

which creates! You can only change the shape thereof. You can covert

gold into ornaments or iron into sword or utensil, but you can't

create gold or iron ! Only nature provides that. You can mix two or

more elements, formulate, change shape only. You can create . You

can " discover " only.

 

To be continued.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

-------------------------

Kindly read bertrand russel

Aranha Roy

 

---------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

Let us continue further on the subject and build on what sadhakas

have said.

Please, it may sound too intellectual, but it is not! It may humble

us!

Consider this: If we need to know/study any object, the object has

to exist in

the first place.

Even if we cannot know the object, we always know it exists. This

knowing of an

existence is prior to the knowledge of its nature, attributes,

function etc.

The Universe is a collection of objects, and can be said to be one

Existence

fundamentally. Individual objects within it are individual

existences localized

in space and time over which they exist, and change to other forms,

continuing

the existences.

When we say Universe we mean the Existence only. Even the word

Universe points

to the Existence first. How do we know such Existence itself? Only

by being

aware/cognizant of it, no other way. So the Existence is awareness

of Existence.

To see what is prior to such Existence, there has to be Awareness to

know

whether or not such Existence IS. Thus Awareness as Existence has to

be

beginningless! What is after the Existence, non-existence? no,

because to say

it, there has to be Awareness of non-existence. If there is

Awareness of

non-existence, IS-ness is established. Thus that which IS, the

Existence(without

division into many objects), is eternally free of time and space

containing all

objects(names/forms) in time and space by creating mind and endowing

it with

this ability in terms of thoughts/feelings. Gita in 2:16 says the

real never

ceases to be.

Such Awareful Existence has to be most Powerful, Intelligent,

Beautiful, full of

Love and Blissful which is our experience. Can we not call this God?

God means Such Intelligence as seen through those who serve, and love

unconditionally, those who fight for Dharma, the righteousness, and

those who

preach God's message!

Evil actions come out from not realizing the Truth of Eternal

Oneness, GOD!

Namaskar.............Pratap Bhatt

 

 

 

----------------------------

My answer is simply to a question which has been indirectly

asked: " Why can't I see Him? "

Because He is the Seer. You are what you are looking for. It is

subjective awareness.

The problem lies with the word 'God' because we then suppose a

distinct being like a tribal deity. No, it is Awareness, Supernal-

consciousness. This is the Vedantic way. Find out who you really

are, not how others see you, but from your subjective perspective,

and you'll find what you're looking for.

Rishi Handa

 

----------------------------

Wonderful expression by Pratap (Bhatt) Bhai

 

Further, a simple but serious exercise could help in understanding

this.....

Sarphodji, ask yourself " who is asking these questions? "

" Who wants to know God? " ....and wait for the answer....

see what comes from deep inside.....

 

but you have to have patience.....and keep asking/repeating the

questions....

In fact when you come across any such question, ask yourself

who is this who wants to know this, who is asking the question?....

 

and wait for the answers and experience that follows.......

Best wishes

Sushil Jain

 

--------------------------------

I am a believer of God. Like one person said in the e-mail below, I

went through that 'show me God to believe' stage when I was around

22 years - 26 years. I was God lover before and again lover now. I

do not really know and I do not think with my limited ablity I can

ever know. At the same time I am not blind follower too. I am open

to all these 6 questions coming from a logical person because I had

them before too and have them now too. Before - with doubt, now -

with wonder and amazement.

 

Knowing God is a long journey. I am on the journey, I beleive I am

gradually understanding the divine concept. I am understanding them

through others, specially our ancestors, Indian scriptures. There

are great concepts, ideas and explanations, there are trash also

amongst them. I am amazed at the power of those ideas and

explanations. They attempted volumes and spent 100s of years to find

God and explain the divinity. Can I really understand all this in my

life? I doubt, which is why its a journey for me. Can I see God? It

depends on. I feel divinity in some great people, in their ideas for

humanity - around me.

 

OK, when somebody asks the question 'show me God', what they are

asking us is 'show me Jesus, Show me Shiva or show me Vishnu'. I

doubt if any one has seen God in these forms. Unless the divine

power appears so for any. As for God in its full form - Can I

imagine the distance between the Earth and the nearest star (Alpha

Centauri - about 4 light years away). I cannot imagine that

distance - however logically I think. Can I see God then - which is

full of this universe? Impossible to imagine. Then how can I see

God, unless God willingly appears to me.

 

My dear friend, answers to those 6 questions need volumes of

explanation or simply experiecing of the divine power - depending on

where you stand on the quest for God. Its a journey, so please

discuss with people who have done the research (of your 6 questions

before) and experience the facts yourself. You still go through the

oscillations of belief and disbeliefs, but if your quest is sincere

you will start seeing light at the end of tunnel.

 

The above does not give straight answers to even one of your

questions. So thanks for your time, if at all you read through this

until now.

 

Venu Gopal

--------------------------------

 

 

PRIOR POSTING

I will come at these questions in a hard nosed manner, maybe I am

blessed as I too waved aside religions when younger but traveled full

circle to The Beloved, who I dearly love with my absolute being.

 

Question 6: There has to be some basis for his existence? What are

the logics which point towards the existence of God? From where to

pick the thread?

O.K. I would ask the skeptical young, (I will call him S. ), tell me

S. how did this Godless Universe begin? He may be a brilliant

physicist, good chance though, regardless S will start to talk about

the 'big bang', the question would then be, o.k. S. was there

substance, was there energy, and was there time, before the 'Event'?

I would ask S. also when this energy of the bang runs out what

then?, I would press the point home that the Great Indians

Traditions had a good explanation for all this many millennium

before the present time, and is probably a good guide for the

scientists. Oh! I would ask my young friend S. where did the laws of

physics come from? Apparently they are unique, the laws had to be

spot on for there to be an existance, that is what the physicist

seem to be saying.

 

I would ask S. one other thing, how is it possible for a spider to

build the perfect web according to its kind, without actually being

taught.

 

I would say to S., think about it, think about it, be tenacious, be

mercilessness, and be brave, let your desire for the truth take you

where it will, just hang in there! S. my friend I was once like you,

maybe one day we can really talk.

 

With Respect and Divine Love,

 

Mike Keenor

------------------------

 

Dear Sadak,

 

1. Where is God I have never seen Him?EXAMPLES Most children know

water is H2O (Hydrogen 2 parts and Oxygen 1 part) ask them them to

show hydrogen and oxygen showing water. Next show them Yogurt (Curd)

and ask them to show milk. Bigger children ask them to show planets.

Then tell then from Sanskrit slokas-- " God is apprameyam " that which

cannot be seen or known by senses as in case of above examples, as

God can be only known by Gyana (knowledge)

2. Who has seen Him? Like in case of scientist tell as per above

examples, so does Saints tell. Only a saint (Guru) can show God as

shown to Vivekananda by Swamy Ramakrishna

3. How is He? Slokas say: Aroopamai, Aksharamai. Roopam, Akandamai,

Viratroopamai Etc. No definite shape as HE appears in the form that

the devotee wants. HE is in sounds - Om, HE is like Sri Krishna/Sri

Rama Etc, Omnipresent (That cosmic energy filled in everything), HE

is in all shapes and forms.

4. If I dont know how do I accept? Contemplate. If you accept that

there is Galaxies then contemplate what energy is performing whole

universe, like in the case of any toy needs battery, car need petrol

or fuel, computer need electricity etc. Still do not want to accept-

Leave it.

 

Jai Sri Krishna

 

baiya sathyanarayan

-----------------------------

 

All questions arise out of answers. When one asks a question

either he needs a confirmation of the answer which he already has

or he is answering his own question. When somebody is asking a

question relating to God, first he has to explain what is in his

mind when he says or thinks of GOD.

 

Einstein said that the world is an optical illusion. We think and

feel that we are separated from the rest. This is an optical

illusion. We have no direct contact with the outside world. All

the sensorial data has to filter through our optical nerve and our

mind (delusion). So we have no idea of what is exactly out there.

When one realizes this he comes closer to God or some superior

knowledge.

 

To realise that we are the debris of God is the supreme

realisation.

 

The most mysterious thing holds the most important key. Death is

the most mysterious thing. Death holds the most important key.

 

When death happens. The soul/consciousness releases out of the

cage (body � which is always subjected to three dimensional view

and

linear concept of time and space), one will realize or merge with

God

 

H. Subair

 

 

------------------------------

dear pratapji,thank u for giving us such wonderful knowledge.person

like you are really god's gift to us.

bhargav mehta

------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Re: Does God (Paramatma) Exist? Where is the Proof? What

is the logic ?

 

Through that supreme devotion he comes to know Me in reality, what

and how great I am; and thereby knowing Me in essence he forthwith

enters into My being.

 

Gita - Chapter 18 Sloka : 55

 

Sundara Raghavendran

---------------------------

 

Deaar Sadhakas, Namaste!

When someone says " where is God? I have never seen Him " , that person

has to know what God is that he expect to see, otherwise he cannot

ask the question. The question comes from the implicit assumption

that God is some imagination, ideas, knowledge, belief, etc. in the

mind and what I see out there is definitely not " God " .

So it is better to rephrase the question back to What God is first.

When that is understood, all questions by Tabalchiji will get

answered.

Consider the following dialogue:

Q: Do you have a doubt about your own existence?

A: No, I know I exist beyond a shadow of doubt. It is so obvious to

me!

Q: How do you know you exist?

A: I don't know HOW, but I am sure I DO!

Q: Do you need any help of another person, scripture, or some

logical explanation to confirm you do exist?

A: Definitely not, even if they say I don't exist, I know I do,

because it is experiential within me now. I don't even need any

sense organs-mind-intellect to tell me I exist!

 

So, it is self-evident existence, of " beingness " we all feel within

us, and by which we know what is knowable in this world as objects

of knowledge. This experience of Being Conscious is always with us,

never are we away from IT, not even in our sleep when body-mind-

world are all gone no one knows where! But I am always!

I just have to find out that ultimately this " I " is Impersonal and

is of the nature of Existence-Consciousness which we call God!

Personal God of Bhakta appears in this Impersonal!

Based on this, I can conclude that God is not a particular object

among many objects we know through sense organs, mind and intellect.

It is THE UNIQUE and objectless EXPERIENCE!

It is like our eyes who cannot see themselves and yet know their

existence beyond any shadow of doubt because SEEING takes place

automatically by just Being.

Once it is grasped, it can lead to God Realization!

Namaskar...

 

Pratap Bhatt

 

-------------------------------

 

My dear Sarphod,

There is a very beautiful story from ancient times that I have

heard from my guru. Once, a king called his minister and said, " I

want you to answer two questions.....otherwise your position will be

at stake.....first, can you show me God. Secondly, what is God

doing right now?

The minister was in anxiety. He went home, began searching

through various scriptures....wondering if he would have a job the

next day. His small son approached him, and noticing his father's

perplexity, inquired, " What troubles you, father? " The father

responded, " Oh, this is not something you would understand. " At

the child's persistence, the father finally explained. The small

child smiled, and simply said, " Father, that is so easy to

answer.....just tell the king that even a small child can answer

these inquiries, and I will then give him my responses " .

The father had no choice, as he didn't know the way to

respond. So, when the child came before the king, he requested the

king, " First, please have a pot of milk brought forth. " The king did

so. Then the child inquired, " Is there ghee in this milk? " The

king said, " Yes, it is there. " Then the child explained, " It is

there, but you cannot see it. Why can you not see the ghee? " The

king said, " There is a process by which the ghee will be brought

forth, of course, first one must churn the milk into butter, then

the butter is slowly heated until the ghee rises to the

surface......only after one patiently follows this process will he

see the ghee. " As the king was speaking, slowly realization came

into his heart, that similarly, one cannot demand to see God at this

moment....there is a process. One who's heart is not pure, who

does not have love and devotion, cannot see the Lord, but He will

certainly reveal Himself to those who are willing to accept the

process of " bringing forth the ghee " .

The child then said, " You are asking me what God is doing.

That is putting me in the postion of teacher, and you as disciple.

So, is it appropriate for you to be sitting on your throne, if you

are learning from me? " The wise King immediately pleced the child

on the throne, and sat in front of him, ready to try to understand

his next lesson. " This is what God is doing " ....he said. " He is

taking someone from a low position and putting him into a high

position, according to the results of his work, and taking someone

else from a high position and putting him into a low position. "

The king was very pleased with the child's answers, and rewarded him

and his father.

So, one may say, " I don't accept such simplistic

responses " .....well, then, such a person will never see the Lord,

unless and until he is fortunate enough to get the association of a

sadhu, by whose association one's heart melts. When one truly

comes into contact and develops some sukrti by contact with a God

consscious person, there is no material, anaytical way to explain

what happens. It is beyond our mundane intelligence, our ability to

analyze. So, simply pray for the youth you are hoping to guide,

and gradually perhaps the mercy of the sadhus will come to them.

It is not a mechanical process.

I hope my words have been gentle, encouraging, and helpful.....it

is truly a sadness which we all share as parents if our children

become somewhat agnostic or doubtful of the underestanding of the

Lord's presence, and the need for ancient, eternal tradition. We

can only pray to be the best examples of loving, patient friends for

them that we can possibly be.

 

respectfully,

Mahalaksmi Dasi

 

-------------------------------

Sarphod,

 

Read Paramahansa Yogananda's book " the Autoibgraphy of a Yogi "

published by Self Realization Fellowship, Los Angeles, CA.

 

Haley H. Haynes

--------------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

In this posting I would like to build on my previous post.

We as parents must deeply understand the truth of who we are, what

is the nature of world and God first. Then only we can explain to

our children. I would shy away to tell children that because it is

said in our scriptures, you have to believe in God being such and

such.

 

We can begin on the path of knowledge with the premise. That which

always IS irrespective of time, location or cause, is Truth. Truth,

thus, cannot be denied and has to be our continuous experience

always, not some states we experience that come and go, rather That

in which all states of experiences happen.

 

In the beginning it may sound like intellectual, but understanding

of that which always IS, has to be our real nature, or Reality of

whatever we all seem to experience dawns on us sooner rather than

later. What is Reality, then?

If we continue to inquire, we may find that whether I am in joyful,

or painful or sad or indifference or even in depressed

situations, " I am " always present and " knowingness " of these various

situations I am in is also always present too, which I never notice

due to my attachments/aversions to situations. These situations

eventually disappear but not " I " .

What is the nature of this I that we all say I when referring to

ourselves? Whatever it is, for sure it IS! This ISNESS-I is the most

certain experience and is Truth. Even if I see illusion, I or seeing

is the truth. This seeing then is communicated as I see an object(or

hear, taste, smell, touch, think, feel etc). I and seeing is

synanymous as consciousness.

 

Now extend this to outer world. Regardless of objects we perceive

out there, Being Conscious of them is the only truth of our

experience. Thus, alleged external world is nothing but ONE

Undivided/Whole Existence/Consciousness(Absolute) in our experience.

Mind is given to us to divide the Existence into different objects

for practical and Divine play. When we come to this understanding,

our attitude towards world changes to one of dispassion, devotion

and to serve it as God, in whatever ways we can. We see God

everywhere our eyes fall upon!

This is God relization.

Namaskar.............Pratap Bhatt

 

GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES:

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related to Gitaji shlokas. Therefore, responses which further

clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be posted.

2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to

substantiate your response.

3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the

extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas

4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting

sadhaka's time.

5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only.

6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other

organizations.

7. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone

number, address etc.

8. Please do not address the response to a particular individual

since the message is going to the entire group.

9. Due to the large readership, all responses may not be posted.

10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if content

is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the group.

11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth,

westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use to Sanskrit

words only, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit bracketed

wherever possible.

 

MODERATOR

Ram Ram

------------------------

 

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Posted
Posted

My question is that how to prove that there exists a super natural

power called " God " ? At least how to explain that. How to correlate

His existence with the character of the world? Children now a days

need more than belief to accept. Can there be any way vide which we

can establish that God exists. If some body says say :

1. Where is God I have never seen Him?

2. Who has seen Him?

3. How is He?

4. If I dont know how do I accept?

5. God is a term coined by elders to put moral shackles over us so

that we may indulge in goodness.

6. There has to be some basis for his existence? What are the logics

which point towards the existence of God? From where to pick the

thread?

 

Sarphod Tabalchi

 

 

NEW POSTING

 

Dear Sarphod:

 

I adore your persistence to what you think is right - that is a good

quality to seek truth. At the same time, I am a bit disappointed in

its lopsidedness! It is not clear what you want, frankly.

 

I have two questions for you: Are you afraid of " God " ? Do you urge

for " God " ?

 

If " YES " to any of these questions, you have a problem. You can't

stick to your current logical conviction. It is obvious that your

current logical conviction irrespective of its self-proclaimed

excellence is JUST NOT DOING ITS JOB :(. Your logical provess can

claim accolades ONLY IF it removes your fears and quench your

desires.

If not removal, at least a nominal reduction in their intensity is

warranted ... if your intellect is working straight.

 

If " NO " to any of these questions, I see a bigger problem. Why are

you confusing yourself with these questions. That " NO " becomes

meaningless just because you are incapable of letting the very

questions go! The very reason you are raising these questions prove

that you are infested either by fear or by desire or by both

regarding " God " . THAT IS EXCELLENT!

 

Then, it is " YOUR " primary responsibility to address the same. As I

mentioned earlier, your current intellect is incapable of helping you

out. Then, you have to make a shift in your thinking to inspect the

ignorance harbored within. Pardon me for calling it ignorance. But,

the fact is ... it is. Inherent fears and desires can never let an

individual happy. They create the turbulence within in terms of

themselves. The existence of miseries is proof enough that we are not

applying our intellect in the right direction. After all, it is

common sense that we do everything ONLY FOR ONE REASON - to be

happy. I am sure you agree with it.

 

The question is are you happy with these questions as such or are you

really interested in a possible solution. If you are happy with these

questions, be happy. You can never get the solution though! If you

really need a solution, QUESTION the very questions. That is the only

way out left for you to be happy. Do you have any other choice? If

you have, please pursue. Being happy is the bottom line of all

actions ... being happy ... being happy but nothing else.

 

Nobody can instruct you what God Is! You have to figure it out

yourself.

 

I don't know who misled you that this or anything specific " is a

devine forum " as if anything else is not! If you seek divinity,

everything is devine. If not, some may claim " divinity " as if the

rest is not. Please do not get trapped into such notions ... if you

really want to seek clarity regarding your question. Question your

questions ... TRUTHFULLY. You will see the end of the tunnel.

 

Again, PLEASE DO NOT EXPECT OR INSIST FOR EXPLICIT INSTRUCTIONS

REGARDING GOD. YOU WILL NOT GET ANY ANSWER ... UNLESSS ... YOU SEE IT

WITHIN YOURSELF! The only suggestion I can make is ... look for IT

within. Because, looking out all these years has seemingly remained

futile! There is no point in digging into others' psyche when mine is

not receptive enough. If I insist to continue, I can guarantee myself

of more confusion to come!! Because ... GOD cannot be held within any

" psyche " as such.

 

Anyway, just few suggestions to think about ... think about it if you

want ... ONLY IF YOU WANT.

 

All The Best.

 

Respects.

 

Naga Narayana

 

 

 

 

PRIOR POSTING

Dear " Sadhaks " (?)

 

Why my simple questions are not getting answered. Shashikalajee

asked me some questions, instead of replying to me. I , upon the

advice of my Begum Saahiba humbly replied to her. Now instead of

responding to me, she has given a conversation between a son and his

mother. My Begum is insisting to me that I should again and again

read that. OK I will do that. But let me answer her another

question. I have not desired to smell " flower of sky " , because it

does not exist. Sometimes I feel that both my Begum Sahibaa and you

Sadhaks have lost mind. What a funny question Shashikalajee has

asked. How can I desire or talk or know about a thing which doesn " t

exist? This is my basic fundamental and solid argument. Vyas N B is

giving indicators which require me to think. I am thinking. But the

best among you is Mike Keenor. He told me to remain solid. He

adviced me to remain tenacious, merciless and hang on. I am hanging

on. But then why Vineet Sarvottam told me lies? Varun Paprunia gave

him a fitting reply. Varun - you are very good. This Pratap Bhatt

is rebuking me. Why? What is my fault. On one hand you are simply

giving me round round answers. On other hand you are passing

judgement. Is this a conduct of a sadhak. Please reply to me. Or

say - none of you have capacity to answer my simple questions. My

Begum Sahibaa has already started crying. Have mercy on her at

least. But Mike praised me. He called me " brilliant " .

 

Waiting for answers.

 

Sarphod Tabalchi

---------------------------

We all struggle with these questions. The answers I found logical is

this: There is something beyond mind and matter. Some will call that

something Omnipotent, Omniscient, Omnipresent. Others will call it

random nothing. Another question one hears is why do I want to know

That Something. To Know, or to Control it? Here in lies the paradox

and answer: If it is to know only: He is right there with you,

within you: The Life, Love Peace. If it is to control so that we

control our surrounding: That is the struggle of Ego. Arjuna had to

see the Universal form to get over the final hurdle.

Jay Shree Krishna.

 

Hemendra Parikh

-------------------------------

Dear devotees of Lord Krishna,

The discussion is interesting. I learned the gita much better after

seeing the life experience of a realized lady, who had darshan of

Lord Krishna ( first darshan of Lords feet after chanting a sloka

from 10 th chapter of Gita for 30,000 times continuously for 30

days ). Her conversations with the Lord have been recorded in

Tamil, and can be shared with the group if interested.

With kind regards,

Sincerely,

P.Vivekanandan

-------------------------------

 

Try Brahmacharya ( the vow of celibacy in thought, word and deed, by

which one attains Self-realisation or reaches Brahman) and you will

see for yourself the value.

 

The Srutis declare: " Naayam Atma balaheenena labhyah - This Atman is

not attainable by a weak man. " In the Gita you will

find: " Yadichhanto brahmacharyam charanti - That desiring which

Brahmacharya is performed " (Chap. VIII-11). " Trividham narakasyedam

dvaram nasanamatmanah; kamah krodhastatha lobhastasmad etat trayam

tyajet - O Arjuna! Triple is the gate of the hell, destructive of

the Self; lust, wrath and greed: therefore let man renounce these

three " (Chap. XVI-21). " Jahi satrum mahabaho kamarupam durasadam -

Kill this powerful enemy, passion, by the observance of

Brahmacharya " (Chap. III-43).

 

If we are determined to attain the goal of life by leading a pure

life, we must keep this mind busily engaged in Divine thoughts,

concentration, meditation, study and service of humanity.

 

It is difficult to eradicate lust. But you need not despair even a

bit. Have faith in God, in His Name and in His grace. Lust cannot be

completely rooted out of the mind except by the grace of the Lord.

You are bound to succeed if you have faith in Him. The Divine Grace

is needed. God helps those who help themselves.

 

Until man continues to cling to worldliness, Paramatma cannot be

grasped by him.

 

You can read more about this in the " Easy Steps to Yoga " by Sri

Swami Sivananda.

chirag almoula

 

--------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

 

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

Tabalchiji, with all the respect for you and questions, I may point

out that no one can make anyone see anything let alone God if that

person doesn't want to see. It seems like you may be insistent upon

seeing God in the way you want to see.

Please forgive me if I am wrong, but as a friend I am saying. It

seems like you may not have read the postings with open mind, with

the desire to know the truth. Open mind doesn't mean accepting, it

means you must give a fair reading/hearing and then asking pertinent

questions or raise doubts based on what is read. Here your responses

indicate you have decided that God cannot exist for you if you

cannot see or have some logic to prove God's existence. One has to

see that " seeing God " means deep understanding of intuitive nature

in this context where mind being limited cannot comprehend. It has

to be prepared to be open. Our conditioned mind is incapable of

grasping truth.

Some of us provided solid logic, but it still fell short to make you

see the pointers.

I said one cannot say " I don't see God " without knowing what God he

is looking that he cannot find. One has to know what one wants to

see, right? One can say " I don't know God, tell me what/where I

should look, and how to recognize " . It is different than show me

God, right?

Once again, God is the Conscious/Intelligent Existence as reflected

in our experience of " I am " right now as you read these words. In

first posting, dialogue was used to illustrate it as a solid proof

one cannot deny.

There are ways to experience God for which senses-mind-intellect is

not capable like they are for knowing objects. Nevertheless, there

is proof of God more reliable than that.

But this point didn't make any impression.

I request you with humility to re-read responses again and see what

happens!

Namaskar..............Pratap Bhatt

-------------------------------

Hare Krishna

 

Okay Mr. Sarphod,

 

Let's put God's existence out of equation for a moment and only

discuss about sample/logics/rationales w.r.t. YOUR existence.

 

I AM

 

Well, you don't have any doubt in your existence, right? Your body

has changed and it is rapidly changing every second. But Mr.

Sarphod, is you also changing with the body? You are certainly not

changing with it because if you were changing then who would have

known the change in body? You are that changeless element who knows

the change in body. Isn't it? Childhood, youth, old age are the

changing phases of the body but you are that changeless element who

is witness to all these changes. It is a law that only a changeless

element can perceive the ever-changing element. My question - What

is the basis of your never-changing existence? If you consider

body's existence as your existence then you are defying all logic,

because body is changing every second!!!

 

I and MINE

 

It is a law that whatever is mine, it is never I. For example you

consider your house, car, wife, children etc. as mine but you never

consider them as I. But in the case of body you say 'my hands, my

legs, my stomach, my ears, my eyes, my throat etc.' and

simultaneously you also consider it as 'I' e.g. I am not feeling

well. You establish two transversal relationships with the body,

that of 'I' and 'MINE'. Whichever thing is mine it is always apart

(separate) from you, and that thing which is separate from you, how

can it be I? This body is also apart from you but still you call it

as I. Is this logical?

 

Mr. Sarphod, now I wish to see you. Can you show me yourself???

Ohh... please don't show me that body which you claim it as mine. I

want to see that Mr. Sarphod who claims the body as mine. In other

words, I want to see that element which you refer to as I?

 

Before that I am eager to know whether you have ever seen yourself.

According to you anything that exists is perceptible. So Mr.

Sarphod, with which instrument have you seen yourself?

 

If you have not seen yourself then, well ..... do you exist ?????

 

And at last one more question- Whose name is Sarphod - body or

yourself?

 

Mr. Sarphod, with your logics/samples/rationales etc., first prove

 

1. Your existence.

2. The basis of your existence.

3. The instrument with which you have seen/felt your existence.

 

Then we will also discuss about God's existence....

 

As Sarphodji is contemplating over his existence, in the mean time,

those sadhaks whose faith in God has dwindled with his questions,

they are requested to read this Sadhaka posting

sadhaka/message/2108

 

Hare Krishna

Varun P. Paprunia

-------------------------------

 

Jai Hanuman

 

(Shrimad Bhagvad Geeta- Marathi Edition- By Saint Gyaaneshwarji-

Chapter 13- Kalyaan- By Narainduttji Gaur )

 

Jeeva ( J) (We all- as referred in BG 15:7) :

 

Mom pls tell me , when I was born?

 

Maya , Mother Nature, Prakrati, Illusion (As referred in BG 7: 13/14)

( M ) :

 

( Irritated) What non sense! Is it some thing to be told? (By a Mom

to Son?)

 

J: If mother doesn't tell, who will?

 

M: How to tell you? I came only after you !

 

J: Typical Mom ! Means- I came first and then you? Surprising? Isn't

it?

 

M: You won't understand. Be silent and sleep!

 

J: Come On ! First me ..! And then You ...!! (How can it be?) Pls

tell me the story ! Please !!

 

M: I told you. You won't understand! Many big people even could not.

 

J: Ok ! Then my Father can let me understand. Take me to Him, please.

 

M: ( Curtly) Stop this song of Father, Father. Your Father is Father

only for the name sake.In fact, I have to do every thing.

 

J: Does He not do anything?

 

M: What can He do? He is old, ancient, poor fellow (eternal) ! Then

totally actionless! Absolutely non-doer! Neither hands, nor legs,

nor eyes, nor ears! Nothing in fact! Look Kid ! Whatever colour ,

form etc of the world which you are seeing is my miracle, my form,

my competence, my work ! Ok? Your Father has neither any form, nor

any beauty. What beauty He can impart to the world?

 

J: But all say that He is the real Creator. See Mom! Whatever is my

Father, He is my Father! Ok? His insult...??

 

M: Insult! What insult? Whose insult? One who does not have any

caste or creed, any family or varna, any city or village- what can

be His respect or disrespect?

 

J: How bad He will feel, if He listens to what you are saying?

 

M: Even if He gets annoyed, what can He do? One who neither moves,

nor walks, nor travels, nor laughs, nor cries, nor speaks, neither

any juice, nor any taste, nor any play !!! This entire

exhibition/show I run, Dear Son !!

 

J But out there on Gate (of the circus) His name is written, O Mom !!

 

M: Ultimately you will take side of your Father only. Afterall you

are His son!

 

J: O Mom of the Universe! Why did not you put name of yours on the

front gate of this Great Circus? ( The world)

 

M: How to put my name. This is the real trgedy. You won't

understand, Son. I, the creator and controller of uncountable

universes can not do any thing by my name!! (Ramcharitmanas- 5/21/4)

 

J: Don't be sad and sorry Mom! What is the matter?

 

M: It is very secret, Son! If by seeing my banner outside the gate,

if somebody wants to meet with me, he will be disappointed. Son!

Please understand my pain. One is lazy ( does nothing), has no

organs, is actionless- those who want to search such (an element)

person , they search Him merely by His name! (Ramcharitmanas-

1/26/2). But to me, even when I am controlling entire sentient and

insentient world, if some body wants to search, CANNOT find! Cannot

search.

 

J: Why not Mom?

 

M: (With tears in her eyes) Because, in reality, I don't exist. I am

false. I am asat. I am non existent. My " not being " is my " being " .

Whatever is not- I am that. I am no-thing.

 

J: And whatever is there, that is who? Who is that?

 

M: He is your Father, Son!

 

J: (In mind, talking with himself only, Son thinks/says - Hats off

to you Mom! When you don't exist, then this is the scene of the

world that even Lord Shiva , Brahma are afraid of you -

Ramcharitmanas 7/71/8- had you existed " actually " Mom then.....)

 

O my No-thing Mom! When you don't even exist , then on whose power

you run this circus called the world?

 

M: What to tell you, Son? I can tell you only this much that, of

Whose a mere flicker of eyebrow, I do rule the uncountable

universes, I can't dare/ don't have courage to face Him. I do run

this circus only on His strength.

 

J : O My Unconquerable Mom! My hundreds of Pranaams to you. Bless

me , O Mom! So that I may get my Father!!

 

While bowing and doing Pranaams to his mother, Jeeva became

tranquilised and then in the background divine music played-

 

" MAAMEVA YA PRAPADYANTE, MAYAMETAM TARANTI YE "

 

(BG 7:14)

 

He was He only!

 

Namaste Jee.

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

-------------------------------

-Shri Hari-

 

My dear Sarphodji,

 

A few points to consider, I have said I have been touched by the

Divine,(just one way of putting it), such Grace is life changing, I

could be lying or be mad,(I tell the truth), but I know just by

reading the things fellow Sadhaks have written that I AM NOT ALONE.

Some people come to Bhagwan with ease and joy others take the path of

fire so to speak, (the hard miles).

 

In the west there is an expression,'The Dark Night of The Soul', and

yes! If it is known in the west it is most absolutely known in the

Indian Traditions.(I think Arjuna's predicament reflects that),I will

stay using the terminology to which I am most familiar.

You say you are deserted, you are not deserted, the Brethren have not

deserted you, and in the Darkest Moment of the Soul, there is a light

shining, that light comes from 'That', which will wash away you

tears, 'That' which will break your heart so that you can be

mended. Your arguments are not solid dear Brother, not to those that

have felt the embrace of The Beloved. Your inflexibility, combined

with your determined search, may well introduce you to 'The Dark

Night...', the very ONE you rebuked the most, will be the one that

rescues you. I speak from experience not from books.

 

With Respect and Divine Love,

 

Mike Keenor

 

 

 

 

 

PRIOR POSTING

Hari Om

 

If sadhaks can concentrate on giving short pointers / rationale

which establishes the existence of Supreme Power it will help all

in being definitive, have reference material and it will also

strengthen faith. Ego, Intellect and Mind don't let you agree that

easily. And who knows who may need in the coming turbulent era of

Kaliyug, that is lacking in faith and belief. Let us get united.

 

From discourses of Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj (Taat Shree), whom I

have solely relied on for a number of years -

 

Every human being wants the following:

 

1) To " live for ever " . This is desire for SAT (existence). Fear of

death is the indicator of that desire.

2) To know every thing. No one wants to be unknowlegeable. This is

desire for CHIT (Knowledge).

3) To be happy. No one wants to be unhappy. This is desire for

ANANDA.

 

Any doubt Mr Sarphod? Now if there is a desire then the element to

fulfill that desire must also be there. There must be some one /

some element which enables you to " live for ever " , to be all knowing

and to be ever blissful. Had such an element not existed, we would

not have had the desire for the same.

 

Paramatma is SAT-CHIT-ANANDA.(Sachchidananda)

 

Raam! Raam!! Raam!!!

 

To be continued.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

------------------------------

 

Dear Tabalchi ji,

 

According to J. Krishnamurti " modern so called educated " people want

a little bit of intellectual amusement and therefore they indulge in

meaningless discussions about God and such matters. God cannot be

discussed in this manner, because That Absolute Truth (give

It/Her/Him any name) is beyond description.

Your all the six questions are like the enquiries of a " full

stomach " tourist without an iota of appetite going through the menu,

or reading it aloud with his co-friends. If you are really thirsty

you will not indulge in such childish questions about water, but

will try your best to drink it.

 

I suggest you read Uncommon Wisdom and other books by Dr Capra (a

physic scientist) who has quoted from our Sanskrit literature about

God, or read A Brief History of Time by Hawking Stephens (well known

expert on dark hole and universe) to know the concept of time and

space. At least do go through some writings by Nobel laureate Dr

Edington (a scientist). Only then, you can be a little serious about

exploring the great Absolute Truth. Become " jyan-vijyan-triptah " and

only then we can walk together on this spiritual quest.

 

Regards,

Suresh C. Sharma

------------------------

 

Sir,

You are asking the oldest question ever being asked. See around

you, a sperm has made you upto approximately 6 feet. Who designed

this project and process. Your father and mother only are tools.

Inquire within and get the answer.

 

surender syal

--------------------------------

 

Mitro,

Why has this God become famous as " HE " why not " she " or " IT "

or " Nothing " ? Today's generation will not believe in gibberish

bakwaas . The paradox is every religion, every saint says that God

is ONE. But even within Hindus philosophy we see thousands of gods

(many names and forms). If God is One then why all the differences

and the fights? How come? Ramchander Homma

 

------------------------------

I agree with Luca Brasi that I should be fairly replied. I have

asked a lot of questions. I want proof/logic and I want to know How

is that Supreme. I want sample. I want rationale. My Begum Saahibaa

also told me that I am head breaker like your Shashikaljee told me.

But I never agreed with her so far. I never admitted this version.

I am not head or skull breaker. My name suggests that I am mind

fixer. Any way how the name matters? I am what I am. I accept my

parents because even if I dont remember my birth, they remember

that. They know that I am their child. I can see them. I can feel

them. I can experience them. I can recognise them. That is why they

are my parents. Where is God? How can I accept God on the grounds

that since I did not know my parents at the time of birth and I

accepted hence I should accept God also. Children are children. They

dont understand. But I am adult. I understand. My Begum Sahibaa

could not satisfy me and hence she asked me to get in touch with you

She said you will satisfy me.I checked with her that I am not

satisfied even after, because I have MOST SOLID arguments, then

what? Even my father deserted me because he could not satisfy me.

She said such situation will not arise. If I cant see , I cant

accept. Prove to me how one can accept without seeing or feeling or

experiencing or logic or rationale or basis. At least I should feel

or experience. Even if my parents were dead at the time of birth,

still I would accept that because how can I come without them on

this earth. What is your answer? Pratap or Vineet or Mike or

Shashikala. My Begum Sahibaa said few things regarding observations

of Vineet also. Please reply- Sadhaks of this self

proclaimed " Divine " site. Dont go by my name. Even my Begum

Saahibaa complains regarding my name. What can I do regarding my

name Jee?

 

Sarphod Tabalchi

 

 

PRIOR POSTING

Hare Krishna

 

Sarphodji,

 

Not only can Parmatma be an individual he can also be a fish

(Matsya-avatar), a tortoise (Kachchap-avatar), a pig (varaha-avatar),

a half lion-half man (Narsimha-avatar) and what not!!!

According to Gita, not only can a devotee see God but also know Him

and also enter into Him.

 

Arjuna said

O universal form, O thousand-armed Lord, I wish to see You in Your

four-armed form, with diadem on your head with club, wheel, conch and

lotus flower in Your hands. I long to see You in that form. (11.46)

 

Sanjaya said

The Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krishna, having spoken thus to

Arjuna, displayed His real four-armed form and at last showed His

two-armed form, thus encouraging the fearful Arjuna. (11.50)

 

Lord Krishna said:

My dear Arjuna, this form of Mine you are now seeing is very

difficult

to behold. Even the demigods are ever seeking the opportunity to see

this form, which is so dear.

Neither by the study of Vedas, nor by penance, nor by charity, nor

even by rituals can I be seen in this form (with four-arms), as You

have seen Me.

O valiant Arjuna, through single-divided devotion, however, I can be

seen in this form (with four-arms), known in essence and even entered

into.

My dear Arjuna, he who performs all his duties for Me, depends on Me,

is devoted to Me, has no attachment, and is free from malice towards

all beings, reaches Me. (11.52-55)

 

Please give special attention to the last 2 verses. This will answer

your question of knowing and seeing God.

 

Yes, I have also read the same in Swamiji's book which your wife has

stated. I consider it to be true because I believe in Swamiji's

words.

 

Hare Krishna

Varun P. Paprunia

------------------------------

 

Hari Om

 

No! Sarphodji. Those who want to learn should read carefully and

should learn also to be patient. All sadhaks upto now have given

excellent observations. I have also given you logics/pointers and

will

continue to give you till you get satisfied. I agree with Luca that

there must be logics/rationale existing. It is another matter, as Mr

Vineet stated, that they are pointless once you proceed ahead. But

still questions are questions and your insistence , though, odd but

still should be respected. Your " Begum Sahibaa " appears to have

directed herself to peace. I wish you understood the hidden affection

in the in the message of Mike Keenor to you. Here are more

logics/pointers to you:

 

3. In life, we always find a higher person than ourselves. In every

field a higher person than one is existing. See around you, you will

find this statement to be true. Even the President of USA can not say

" I am the Highest " . Always a better /higher person than you is

existing. Now where does this " highness " end. If there is sense of

highness , then there must be an element which is " highest " . God is

that element. God is the HIGHEST.

 

4. You always need some " shelter " to survive. In the childhood you

need shelter of parents, teacher, etc. Then of education, ability,

wife, money, home, employers, what not. In old age, you need wife,

children, stick, doctor, medicines, health etc Sujects change but not

the need for shelter.. If there is consistent need for shelter , then

there must be an element existing of whose shelter is the ultimate

shelter. Is not it Mr Sarphod. ( You should argue on such in

principle

points. Check up with you Begum Sahibaa.) ? If you are thirsty ,

there

must be water existing on the planet. Now when you need always some

shelter or other, then there must be an element which can be

described

as " Highest Shelter available " ! God is " PARAM ASHRAYA DATA " Giver

of that shelter. If you take shelter of God, no other shelter will be

necessary,

 

5. We always want to be perfect. There is no doubt on that. But there

is also no doubt regarding the fact that we err. In fact " to err is

human " -this saying is prevalent on this planet from time immemorial.

Now if there is a desire to become perfect then there must exist an

element which is most perfect. Did you ever hear that there was a

difference of a fraction of a second even in timings of Sun rise and

Sun set? Is not everything moving to the perfection? Who can be more

perfect except God. God is the MOST PERFECT.

 

To be continued till you say " I am satisfied "

 

As regards your observation that " Nature " also creates/controls-

answer is that whether you believe that nature has " knowledge " ? If

yes, then that nature is our God. In our religion ( I don't know your

religion) SHAKTI is God also. But if according to you , the INERT

NATURE has no knowledge, then you have to accept God. Can inert

nature

take care of so many souls, operate Law of Karma, provide food to so

many creatures? If Yes- I don't mind calling that Nature to be God.

After all it is a matter only of " terminology " . If no then you must

accept that IF THERE IS DESIRE / NEED IN YOU TO BE PERFECT OR TO TAKE

SHELTER OR TO SEEK HIGHNESS then there exists an element to fulfil

that desire. That element is called " GOD/ PARAMATMA " . Logical ?

Does

it appeal to your logic Mr Sarphod? Check up with your Begum Sahibaa

and come back. Your arguments shall exhaust, not our arguments- be

sure on this. After all you are on GT Site !

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

-------------------------------

 

Dear Sarphod:

 

Wonderful! I like your guts to put this question across!! I was

startled to start with and even alarmed as I contemplated " thanks

for triggering the turbulence from which proceeds the peace as

always. "

 

Son goes to father and asks, " Father, what is God? " Father

answered, " Whatever drives your life, whatever sustains your life

and whatever absorbs your life is verily God my child. Think about

It! " The father was wise enough not to instruct what God is. The son

promptly contemplates in what his father said and came back, " Father,

fear drives all the lives. Fear sustains all the lives. Fear absorbs

all the life. Therefore, fear should be the god. " Father

remarks, " Good job! Keep thinking. " The son not knowing whether his

revelation was conclusive or not continues to contemplate. Son comes

back to father and declares, " Father, desire drives all the lives,

desire sustains all the lives and desire absorbs all the lives.

Therefore, the desire should be the god. " Father remarks again, Good

job! Keep thinking. " The son does not feel the conclusive

appreciation regarding the god - is it fear or desire? He continues

to contemplate and realizes that, the happiness drives all the

lives. Happiness sustains all the lives. And, happiness absorbs all

the lives. Therefore happiness should be the god.

 

Now he does not go back to his father as he has already felt the

wisdom behind his father's remarks. God is not something that can be

taught to, or preached to or transferred to anybody. It is the

notion within ... it is the imagination within ... it is the

deliberation within ... it is the understanding within ... it is the

appreciation within ... IT IS THE PRESENCE WITHIN in its core. The

son, accepting the challenge from his father to use the body, senses

and mind blessed to him, continues to contemplate.

 

He has seen the driving force, sustenance strength and absorption

power in the fear, in the desire as well as in the happiness. He

sees that the three divinities of creation, sustenance,and

absorption transcend the boundaries of his existential fears,

desires and happiness altogether integrating the whole universe of

knowns as well as unknowns - manifested as well as unmanifested -

mitigating the differences that were once prominent amongst the

three phases of life - fear, desire and happiness.

 

Then starts another dilemma - who is the god amongst these three

divinites that seem to determine what life is? Driving Force or

Sustenance Strength or Absorption Power? Again, he approaches his

father, the wisdom established within to contemplate on the dilemma.

 

The driving force comes first to claim the unclaimed post of The

God. On ruthless examination, the driving force starts wondering

aloud that it itself should have been driven by something else. The

new driving force wonders the same and so on. The driving force digs

up an infinite legacy of its own kind beneath lost in the oblivion

of the past. It returns back in frustration not withstanding what

the driving force could really be.

 

The absorption power jumps in next to claim the still unclaimed post

of The God. Again, the wisdom starts the same gruelling scrutiny.

The power under sharp vigilence starts whithering away to wonder if

it absorbs everything there should be something to absorb itself.

The new absorbing power wonders the same way and so on. The

absorption power piles up an infinite heirarchy of its own kind

above lost in the oblivion of the future. It returns back in

frustration not withstanding what the absorption power could ever

be.

 

The empty throne is still awaiting to be filled. The sustenance

strength walks to claim the post in confidence. The valiant wisdom

does its job with no resistance subjecting the life sustenance

power in suspension of its examination. The sustencance strength

which provides strength to all the life around starts wondering what

is the source of its own strength and sustenance. The new source of

the strength resounds the same wonder what could be the source of

strength. The sustenance strength keeps jumping from on fold to

another all around the universe that is within its control to seek

itself folding itself in infinitude lost in the vast presence. It

returns back in frustration not withstanding what the sustenance

strength could ever be.

 

Seeing the crest-fallen champions of life not realizing their own

true nature around, the throne of The God starts fading into

silence. The wisdom starts wondering in itself. Is it not the

driving force as well as the sustenance strength as well as the

absorption power all the time all around? Suddenly, the demarkation

between the three divinities that was once so thick and opaque

starts giving away to reveal the force, strength and power of

creation, sustenance and absorption in itself and hence in every

thing that is perceieved ever.

 

The realized wisdom gets back and declares. Never ever ignore your

fears. Never ever ignore your desires. Never ever ignore your

happiness. Ever be with your fears, desires and happiness as you

are. Then you see the unison amongst your fears, desires and joys

and hence in all your emotions, relations and existence within as

well as around. Then you see all the boundaries separating your

notions dissolve in the very wisdom where you dwell upon. Being what

you are in spite of your apparent variances of life naturally

transcends all the barriers built by your cognition across

everything to reveal THE ONE everywhere and everywhence. Then the

very post of God does not appear to be real anymore which seemed the

most troublesome question to start with.

 

God remains evasive till you drift away from what you are in vain

searching whatever IT could be! Therefore, my dear friend, better

pause in your frenzy search and look around and look within … be

what you are. Then God is everything … not just a notion ... not

just a faith ... not just a doubt ... but, everything ... EVERYTHING

WITH NO EXCEPTION. If you remain what you are, IT is all-inclusive.

If you attempt to search for it, IT becomes all-exclusive. In other

words, IT is EVERYTHING in your presence; and IT is NOTHING in your

perception.

 

Respects.

 

Naga Narayana

--------------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

Let us address one aspect of Tabalchiji's issues with responses of

sadhakas received so far!

To be able to see God, one needs to recognize God upon seeing

anything, right? If one says I don't see God, one is looking for what

one " thinks " God is in whatever one is looking at. For God to be

" that " it will be very very limiting to God, because what we think is

so limited even if it is some grand image of God. That is not

logical, right?

Now when Swamiji says Goenkaji and Poddarji had darshana of God, what

does it mean?

It means the deep understanding of what God is and subsequent

realization that " my God, there is nothing else but only God IS in

the disguise of the Cosmos " that sees through that individual.

The individual's vision has changed entirely, where he/she saw

objects of the world before, now he sees only Divinity in the same

forms. It is our experience that what we believe out there, we tend

to see only that through our being closed minded. Similarly when we

understand God, this " Understanding " opens up the very mind who sees

God everywhere, individual is merely a channel God is using.

Other aspects of issues will see later....

Namaskar............Pratap Bhatt

 

------------------------

-Shree Hari-

 

Sarphodji,

 

Great! You are still questioning brilliant!

I have read the responses from our brethren, great beauty full of

divine love. But I will stick to the hared nosed roll,(look past it

dear friend).

If someone asked me to show her an oak tree, and I gave her an acorn,

what would she say I wonder? Of course the blueprint for the whole

tree is in the acorn, one also one wonders, did the first oak tree

have an acorn or the first acorn have an oak tree?

Question 6 if resolved is the platform upon which all the other

question can be answered it seems to me.

I can only tell you how I came to be touched be The Divine, that was

by my search into paradoxes, like the universe, like the acorn.

I once mentioned a man I met in unusual circumstance. It was about

3am

in a large air traffic control room, very few controllers in the room

at that time. I was waiting to get clearance to work on a console(to

do annual technical checks). There across the room was this

controller, He had his headset on,(with a long lead), he was

performing asanas, (within the restriction), " trying to stay awake? "

I

asked, " no he boomed " , we started to talk. We had 'Much' in common,

we

developed a dialog from then on , it was he who suggested I read

Bhagavad Gita,(I humbly suggest you do also).

He once said to me with his booming humorous voice, " Mike if people

could her us they would think we're 'Lunatics'.

What we had in common at the root, was our hunger for the truth, and

the courage, 'to ride the tiger " .

We were an unlikely pair from a world view, he was a Sri Lankan, me

an

Anglo Celt, especially if one could here us talking, but we were

brothers of the spirit.

There is much I could talk of, but I must bow to the respected

moderator.

 

With Respect and Divine Love,

 

Mike Keenor

-

Mr Sarphod ! So you are a male as well as married ! Very good Jee !

 

It is a good habit to act in accordance with advice your Begum. How

did she leave you alone? Do you have books of Swamiji Ramsukhdasji

Maharaj at your home? Your “Begum†had those books according to

you.

Did you read them? Or your Begum only reads them? By the way did

you ever think about or did you ever have a desire to smell “

flower

of sky†? Why did you not think about flower of sky or desired to

smell it ? Reply. This is a question to you. Also reply if you always

believe only after “seeing†?

 

Let us know as to how you can get satisfied according to you?. What

methodology suits your mind.? How do you generally feel regarding

this world,mind, intellect, body etc etc ? How according to you such

a

big world is operating ? Do you think there are some laws governing

this world? Keep also giving your observations , counter arguments on

EACH AND EVERY response which is given to you. Otherwise how will we

know whether the cure has taken place? Understood? You can consult

your Begum also before replying to my queries. Always tell us what

your Begum told you and what is your own observation. Why don’t you

tell your Begum also to become member and start Satsanga? Will that

not be better? What is her kind name, Jee?

 

Namaste Jee.

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

 

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

Another aspect of issues raised by Tabalchiji can be answered based

on

what sadhakas already have echoed in their responses.

The most important thing is to know that God is not " something " ,

" somewhere " and " some times " . It is at the core of our being, an

intimate experience which is The Knowingness without anything known.

In otherwords, God cannot be known as another limited object,

nevertheless, is known as " knowingness " in us by virtue of just

being.

For example, if someone were to ask you, can you show me Love, Peace,

Compassion, Beauty, Goodness etc " out there " ? You cann't! They are

experiences within us that we attribute to things/situations etc

outside which may have triggered them. Some philosopher rightly said

" From the beginning, not a thing is! " Please, please, see the truth

of

this. We are connected to the world only through Being Conscious of

something or other which we conceptualize as subject

experiencer(mind-body), and objects experienced, both thought as

separate. Such division is not experiential.

Just as these experiences are not seen " out there " , but are truely

happening in our consciousness, God cannot be seen, as separate from

Consciousness.

Sun, for example, is nothing but the experience of light and heat,

conceptualized as " Sun " out there, for practical purpose. This is

also

true for all apparant objects of the world.

God or Consciousness or Atman, are also such conceptual words of the

most intimate Wordless Experience! They are good pointers though!

When people engage in services to help others who are victims of

disasters, diseases, violence, wars, terrorism etc etc who motivates

their actions? Unconditional Love and Goodness of the heart! People

who help to preserve natural environment, forests, animals, etc etc

are also inspired by the same Love and Goodness!

Can we not call Unconditional Love and Goodness of the heart God?

Are those who bring such disasters to " apparant others " also God, if

all is God?

They are also, yes, but unfortunately " they " have not understood yet

that they are!

In God's world, only God exists playing " others " , so who does what to

whom?

Try doing evil acts after understanding deep within that all of us,

nature included, together, not individually, are God! One cannot!

 

Namaskar...........Pratap Bhatt

 

 

-

PRIOR POSITING

Dear Sadhak,

Excellent explanation has been given by sadhak Pratapji....Excellent!

If the parents donot know GOD how can they teach the kids?

Swamiji says if something is lying in darkness we can take a deepak

with us to see it but to see a deepak(lamp) we donot need another

deepak. Same way the objects of this whole worlds can be

seen/experienced through the " SELF " but to know this SELF we donot

need anything from the world( mind/body/intellect etc.) Only SELF

knows it SELF.

1. Where is God I have never seen Him?

He is not HE, He is " I " . When we can see/know who am I we can

see/know who is God.

Indeed, You alone know Yourself by Your own potencies, O origin of

all, Lord of all beings, God of gods, O Supreme Person, Lord of the

universe! Ch10:15

2. Who has seen Him?

All realized people have known HIM.Some claim that they have seen

HIM too.

Swami Vivekananda asked this question to everyone he met-Have you

seen God ? All answers negative except Ramkrishna Paramhansa.He said-

" Yes I have seen God as clearly as I am seeing you right now. "

Listening to this Narendra became his disciple.

3. How is He?

With a single fragment of Myself I pervade and support this entire

universe.Ch10:42

4. If I dont know how do I accept?

Then go ahead follow the path shown to us by Swamiji or any realized

soul, and know Him first, then accept.

5. God is a term coined by elders to put moral shackles over us so

that we may indulge in goodness.

What's wrong with that ? Accept God ,be righteous and be Arjuna or

donot accept Him, be Duryodhana - choice is yours.

6. There has to be some basis for his existence? What are the logics

which point towards the existence of God? From where to pick the

thread?

Start with meditation and Gita. Follow the path shown by Him in Gita-

Karma Yoga, Gyaan Yoga or Bhakti Yoga. Establish yr self in YOGA.....

 

No one can force any one to believe. Kids learn by imitation. Lead

yr own life according to Dharma,and kids will pick it up.Before

giving them tatva Gyaan(absolute knowledge),its better to sit with

them and watch Ramayana, Krishna, Mahabharata and let them learn by

the character of our Sagun Sakaar Bhagwaan(God with Forms). If they

can learn from Rama or Krishna, they will be on right path and will

get their realization at their own speed.

with lots of Love,

a sadhika

Sadhna Karigar

 

--------------------------------

Jai Hanuman

 

Oye What a question Jee!!. As good as the name of the

questioner!! " Sarphod " in Hindi means skull breaker ! " Tablachi "

means he who plays treble. Unique Jee !! Namaste Sarphodji !!

Welcome Jee ! There is music everywhere ! Who kept such a classic

name Jee ? Father? OK, pick the thread from father only.

 

How do I accept if I don't know? Accept just as you accepted some

one to be your father without knowing anything about him. Don't say

please- " that children now a days need more than belief to accept " .

That, I am afraid, is not as classic a statement as is even your

kind name. Fact is that children practice only belief and solid

belief. They are masters of belief - and teachers of entire humanity

on this subject of belief. Poor adults need proof. What kind of

proof was solicited by you in accepting some one to be your father

or some name to be mine or for that purpose by " the children of now

a days " - say son of Sarphod Tablachi, if any ??

 

Do you " know " as to who is your father and who is your mother? What

proof or rationale you can give to support your acceptance of Mr X

as your father?

 

You asked " from where to pick the thread " . I reply to you that you

pick the thread from yourself and your Dear Father. Come On !

 

Reply now! Argue !!

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

-------------------------------

Mr.Pratapji Bhatt has explained the existance of God beautifully.It

is very much in sync with Sri Sri Paramhansa Yogananda's explanation

in his books- " Autobiography of a yogi " and " Man's eternal quest "

which i have read. Also the story quoted by mahalaksmiji perfectly

describes how to know God.He is all knowing and yet unknown.He is

the Devine Intelligence that governs all that is known to us.God is

indescribebable.He can only be felt in the depths of a pure soul.

Ami Chhowala

 

--------------------------------

I still remain unsatisfied in this " divine " forum. How and why

Paramatma can not be an individual ? Is there nothing in your

scriptures like Gita which says that a devotee can also " see " God ?

My Begum Sahiba states that she read from a book of your Swami

Ramsukhdasji that Jai Dayal Goenka and Hanuman Poddar

had " darshanas " of God. Was His statement right or your reference

of good Swami is right? Why do you say that God can not be known?

How then the desire to know can be fulfilled? Whether I need an

instruction manual or not is not the focal point, in fact, to be

fair to me, answer to my questions in simple and convincing manner

is focal point! None of the " sadhaks " are convincing so far. I

asked from where to pick the thread? The responses are unclear and

incomplete.

 

Mr Mike ! Incomplete, was your answer. If you believe you were like

me in the past, then make me like you in the present. Is that not a

divine task? Is that not the role of this forum? Logic must exist.

Pointers must be there. Knowledge cant be beyond itself. What else

we are doing at present except meeting?

 

Mr Vyas - When Your so called " Nature " made oceans, Sun Moon etc

and when Nature is supreme then where is the question of God? Why

cant Fire/ Ocean/etc are called God ? If yes, then how God is

beyond knowledge? How God can not be seen as stated by Mr Pratap

Bhatt or by Vineet Sarvottam ?

 

" Sadhaks " - My Begum Sahibaa directed me to you people to satisfy

my knowledge quest ! I expected better as I am hungry for answers.

 

Sarphod Tabalchi

--------------------------------

Such a question can only arise from those who consider gross body as

real self and not the outer sheath of immortal " real self " which

contains the apriori knowledge.

 

They see God every day but do not recognise THEE. The Universal God

is Tri-Ani-Pada- three bodies in One i.e. gross, subtle and divine.

Since the entire Brahamad is God, His gross body consists of " Sun

and Moon His eyes, firmament his middle body and earth as His Feet "

and His Head is in Heaven. Thus entire Brahmand is God. Most of the

people who find gross body as real, want to imagine and visulaise

God as a human being forgetting that human beings who live on this

earth are " Thy " tiny living cells. We have several billions living

cells in our gross body, can any living cell of our body tell who we

are?

 

But those who find human soul as " real self " have no difficulty in

knowing God. His divine body is the Omniscient Supreme Soul

(Parmatma) and His subtle body " Mahadeva " is omnipotent Supreme

Spirit prevalent in all animate and inanimate life/things. His

spirit is found in Shuniya (cosmic void) of all kind of matter

consisting of atoms with unsuspected vitality. Because of His spirit

prevalent in shuniya, matter is not inert.

 

Since Man is born in the image of God, human beings are also tri-ani-

pada. Immortal soul resides in our divine body, spirit resides in

our subtle body and gross instruments in our material body. Those

who consider material gross body as the real self will always find

difficult to know formless and ineffable universal God.

 

Incidentally formeless and ineffable Universal God is Brahma- name

derived from Brahmand and other gods in human form are Iswaras.

Iswaras are not the gods of entire mankind.

with regards,

Prem Sabhlok

 

 

--------------------------------

Dear sarphod,

 

God is in nature,he can only be felt.His power is dwelling

everywhere in the nature in the form of cosmic vibratioins .If we

can tune our mind with the same frequency by way of sadhana we can

feel the godliness of the nature.How a sperm can create a body with

life is the proof of the supernatural power of the god. So far we

are only establishing the things which are existing, but we are

unable to establish about the source of the existence.

Our ultimate goal our of life is to reuntite ourselves with the

nature from where we have come.Nothing extra to be thought about

god. Living close to the nature is living near god. But the senses

attached to our body always act against our realisation

process.controling the senses is the biggest challenge of our life.

Let us teach our children about righteous way of living ,think

naturally and live naturally.

 

with regards

Ramana kothuri

 

-------------------------------

--------------------------------

The questions of Mr Sarphod Tabalchi are basic questions. I too

dont believe that the Supreme Power would not leave any pointers or

logics of His existence. From where to pick the thread ? I dont

agree with Mr Sarvottam that God can not be seen by His beloved

ones.. There has to be nothing which is beyond the powers of

Supreme. One principle came from Mike's narration and Mr Vyas'

message that before " big bang " too something existed or that if

there is creation then there must be a creator. But how that is

exclusive prorogative of God only ? Creativity is universal symptom

and authority. Spiders are also creators as per Mike Keenor. Please

elaborate with reference to Sarphod's questions. What about five

elements? Are they creators? Are not these elements playing the

transformation game? I think more serious and direct discussions are

warranted on the subject, not just belief stricken answers. First

the logics/rationales have to be exhausted.

 

Luca Brasi

----------------------------

 

Jai Kali Mata

 

What is meant by " No one knows about time!!! " Also, I am unclear as

to how this is relevant to the questions asked? Is this idea about

time, emanated out of teachings of Shraddheya Swamiji referred by

him? Kindly clarify !

 

Bandook Singh

 

--------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

 

RESUBMITTED WITH SOME CORRECTIONS

 

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

You have asked -

 

1) Where is God, I have never seen Him?

Answer: Paramatma is not an individual that you or any one can

simply see. Existence - IS-ness (sattaa maatre) has been given the

name Paramatma. Otherwise there is no name for that Existence or all

Names are only Paramatma's (Supreme Consciousness's) Names.

 

2) Who has seen Him?

Answer: Paramatma has not been seen by anyone to date and in future

too Paramatma will not be ever seen. Shraddhey Swamiji has stated

that Paramatma can be believed, not known, nor seen. Beyond this

whatever anyone says, is questionable.

 

3) How is He?

Answer: How, where, when, what, why, such questions regarding

Parmatma are pointless. That which cannot be known, it cannot be

described at all.

 

4) What are you able to know " Time " (samay). This question has been

asked regarding time (whose beginning and end is unknown to us). It

is not a question about the watch or the interval. It is not only

you, but no one understands anything about " time " . They can say

nothing about time. Then why do you believe in time? Similarly

believe and accept Paramatma, it will be nothing but gain.

 

5) This same work is also performed by men through establishment of

laws. Just as all do not believe in the law, similarly, everyone

continues to speak and share for correcting one's foolishness, and

according to one's own convenience and conformance giving that

tattva a " form " . You too can speak about the same as well.

 

6) 'Existence' itself is 'Paramaatmaa'. Where can any supportive

arguments and evidence exist to establish the existence

of 'Existence' (named Paramaatmaa)? Then where is one to get the

support of this essential elemental belief 'ASTITTVA'? Reasoning-

deliberation-discussion (tark), proof-evidence (pramaan) can be of

that thing which we know. But Paramatma is not known and cannot ever

be known, then this reasoning and seeking evidence is not in

conformance to that reasoning.

 

7) Do you want Paramatma? or do you want an instruction manual or

an aphorism (sutra) to grab hold of Paramatma? Don't get caught up

in the vicious cycle of trying to find an instruction manual.

Leaving the search, become engaged in " Chup Saadhan " (Effortless

Awareness, Discipline of Silence). All quest, and inquiry will be

quietened, will become still.

 

Please kindly forgive any limitations in the expression / words

used.

 

Vineet Sarvottam

--------------------------

 

Hari Om

 

How to know what is beyond knowledge - is the moot question.

 

Logic/Rationale !! Proof !!! Sample !! Consider the following:

 

1 .Whatever we are able to see on this earth there is always a

creator /manufacturer - be it an allpin, pen, table, house, machine,

house, bed, watch, pen, paper, cloth or aircraft. Anything visible.

Then there should be creator of oceans, fire, air, mountains, earth,

Sun. Moon, stars also !

 

God is the creator of all. - CREATOR

 

2. Whatever thing which moves , be it car, aircraft, bicycle,

machine, computer, - there is always a controller thereof. Earth

also moves. Sun/Moon also move. Oceans remain in their limits. Sun

rises and sets perfectly without fail. There must be a controller of

them also!

 

God is the controller of all- CONTROLLER

 

Q BUT A HUMAN BEING ALSO CREATES ! WHAT IS SO IMPORTANT ABOUT IT ?

 

Ans A human being cannot " create " anything! It is only " nature "

which creates! You can only change the shape thereof. You can covert

gold into ornaments or iron into sword or utensil, but you can't

create gold or iron ! Only nature provides that. You can mix two or

more elements, formulate, change shape only. You can create . You

can " discover " only.

 

To be continued.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

-------------------------

Kindly read bertrand russel

Aranha Roy

 

---------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

Let us continue further on the subject and build on what sadhakas

have said.

Please, it may sound too intellectual, but it is not! It may humble

us!

Consider this: If we need to know/study any object, the object has

to exist in

the first place.

Even if we cannot know the object, we always know it exists. This

knowing of an

existence is prior to the knowledge of its nature, attributes,

function etc.

The Universe is a collection of objects, and can be said to be one

Existence

fundamentally. Individual objects within it are individual

existences localized

in space and time over which they exist, and change to other forms,

continuing

the existences.

When we say Universe we mean the Existence only. Even the word

Universe points

to the Existence first. How do we know such Existence itself? Only

by being

aware/cognizant of it, no other way. So the Existence is awareness

of Existence.

To see what is prior to such Existence, there has to be Awareness to

know

whether or not such Existence IS. Thus Awareness as Existence has to

be

beginningless! What is after the Existence, non-existence? no,

because to say

it, there has to be Awareness of non-existence. If there is

Awareness of

non-existence, IS-ness is established. Thus that which IS, the

Existence(without

division into many objects), is eternally free of time and space

containing all

objects(names/forms) in time and space by creating mind and endowing

it with

this ability in terms of thoughts/feelings. Gita in 2:16 says the

real never

ceases to be.

Such Awareful Existence has to be most Powerful, Intelligent,

Beautiful, full of

Love and Blissful which is our experience. Can we not call this God?

God means Such Intelligence as seen through those who serve, and love

unconditionally, those who fight for Dharma, the righteousness, and

those who

preach God's message!

Evil actions come out from not realizing the Truth of Eternal

Oneness, GOD!

Namaskar.............Pratap Bhatt

 

 

 

----------------------------

My answer is simply to a question which has been indirectly

asked: " Why can't I see Him? "

Because He is the Seer. You are what you are looking for. It is

subjective awareness.

The problem lies with the word 'God' because we then suppose a

distinct being like a tribal deity. No, it is Awareness, Supernal-

consciousness. This is the Vedantic way. Find out who you really

are, not how others see you, but from your subjective perspective,

and you'll find what you're looking for.

Rishi Handa

 

----------------------------

Wonderful expression by Pratap (Bhatt) Bhai

 

Further, a simple but serious exercise could help in understanding

this.....

Sarphodji, ask yourself " who is asking these questions? "

" Who wants to know God? " ....and wait for the answer....

see what comes from deep inside.....

 

but you have to have patience.....and keep asking/repeating the

questions....

In fact when you come across any such question, ask yourself

who is this who wants to know this, who is asking the question?....

 

and wait for the answers and experience that follows.......

Best wishes

Sushil Jain

 

--------------------------------

I am a believer of God. Like one person said in the e-mail below, I

went through that 'show me God to believe' stage when I was around

22 years - 26 years. I was God lover before and again lover now. I

do not really know and I do not think with my limited ablity I can

ever know. At the same time I am not blind follower too. I am open

to all these 6 questions coming from a logical person because I had

them before too and have them now too. Before - with doubt, now -

with wonder and amazement.

 

Knowing God is a long journey. I am on the journey, I beleive I am

gradually understanding the divine concept. I am understanding them

through others, specially our ancestors, Indian scriptures. There

are great concepts, ideas and explanations, there are trash also

amongst them. I am amazed at the power of those ideas and

explanations. They attempted volumes and spent 100s of years to find

God and explain the divinity. Can I really understand all this in my

life? I doubt, which is why its a journey for me. Can I see God? It

depends on. I feel divinity in some great people, in their ideas for

humanity - around me.

 

OK, when somebody asks the question 'show me God', what they are

asking us is 'show me Jesus, Show me Shiva or show me Vishnu'. I

doubt if any one has seen God in these forms. Unless the divine

power appears so for any. As for God in its full form - Can I

imagine the distance between the Earth and the nearest star (Alpha

Centauri - about 4 light years away). I cannot imagine that

distance - however logically I think. Can I see God then - which is

full of this universe? Impossible to imagine. Then how can I see

God, unless God willingly appears to me.

 

My dear friend, answers to those 6 questions need volumes of

explanation or simply experiecing of the divine power - depending on

where you stand on the quest for God. Its a journey, so please

discuss with people who have done the research (of your 6 questions

before) and experience the facts yourself. You still go through the

oscillations of belief and disbeliefs, but if your quest is sincere

you will start seeing light at the end of tunnel.

 

The above does not give straight answers to even one of your

questions. So thanks for your time, if at all you read through this

until now.

 

Venu Gopal

--------------------------------

 

 

PRIOR POSTING

I will come at these questions in a hard nosed manner, maybe I am

blessed as I too waved aside religions when younger but traveled full

circle to The Beloved, who I dearly love with my absolute being.

 

Question 6: There has to be some basis for his existence? What are

the logics which point towards the existence of God? From where to

pick the thread?

O.K. I would ask the skeptical young, (I will call him S. ), tell me

S. how did this Godless Universe begin? He may be a brilliant

physicist, good chance though, regardless S will start to talk about

the 'big bang', the question would then be, o.k. S. was there

substance, was there energy, and was there time, before the 'Event'?

I would ask S. also when this energy of the bang runs out what

then?, I would press the point home that the Great Indians

Traditions had a good explanation for all this many millennium

before the present time, and is probably a good guide for the

scientists. Oh! I would ask my young friend S. where did the laws of

physics come from? Apparently they are unique, the laws had to be

spot on for there to be an existance, that is what the physicist

seem to be saying.

 

I would ask S. one other thing, how is it possible for a spider to

build the perfect web according to its kind, without actually being

taught.

 

I would say to S., think about it, think about it, be tenacious, be

mercilessness, and be brave, let your desire for the truth take you

where it will, just hang in there! S. my friend I was once like you,

maybe one day we can really talk.

 

With Respect and Divine Love,

 

Mike Keenor

------------------------

 

Dear Sadak,

 

1. Where is God I have never seen Him?EXAMPLES Most children know

water is H2O (Hydrogen 2 parts and Oxygen 1 part) ask them them to

show hydrogen and oxygen showing water. Next show them Yogurt (Curd)

and ask them to show milk. Bigger children ask them to show planets.

Then tell then from Sanskrit slokas-- " God is apprameyam " that which

cannot be seen or known by senses as in case of above examples, as

God can be only known by Gyana (knowledge)

2. Who has seen Him? Like in case of scientist tell as per above

examples, so does Saints tell. Only a saint (Guru) can show God as

shown to Vivekananda by Swamy Ramakrishna

3. How is He? Slokas say: Aroopamai, Aksharamai. Roopam, Akandamai,

Viratroopamai Etc. No definite shape as HE appears in the form that

the devotee wants. HE is in sounds - Om, HE is like Sri Krishna/Sri

Rama Etc, Omnipresent (That cosmic energy filled in everything), HE

is in all shapes and forms.

4. If I dont know how do I accept? Contemplate. If you accept that

there is Galaxies then contemplate what energy is performing whole

universe, like in the case of any toy needs battery, car need petrol

or fuel, computer need electricity etc. Still do not want to accept-

Leave it.

 

Jai Sri Krishna

 

baiya sathyanarayan

-----------------------------

 

All questions arise out of answers. When one asks a question

either he needs a confirmation of the answer which he already has

or he is answering his own question. When somebody is asking a

question relating to God, first he has to explain what is in his

mind when he says or thinks of GOD.

 

Einstein said that the world is an optical illusion. We think and

feel that we are separated from the rest. This is an optical

illusion. We have no direct contact with the outside world. All

the sensorial data has to filter through our optical nerve and our

mind (delusion). So we have no idea of what is exactly out there.

When one realizes this he comes closer to God or some superior

knowledge.

 

To realise that we are the debris of God is the supreme

realisation.

 

The most mysterious thing holds the most important key. Death is

the most mysterious thing. Death holds the most important key.

 

When death happens. The soul/consciousness releases out of the

cage (body � which is always subjected to three dimensional view

and

linear concept of time and space), one will realize or merge with

God

 

H. Subair

 

 

------------------------------

dear pratapji,thank u for giving us such wonderful knowledge.person

like you are really god's gift to us.

bhargav mehta

------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Re: Does God (Paramatma) Exist? Where is the Proof? What

is the logic ?

 

Through that supreme devotion he comes to know Me in reality, what

and how great I am; and thereby knowing Me in essence he forthwith

enters into My being.

 

Gita - Chapter 18 Sloka : 55

 

Sundara Raghavendran

---------------------------

 

Deaar Sadhakas, Namaste!

When someone says " where is God? I have never seen Him " , that person

has to know what God is that he expect to see, otherwise he cannot

ask the question. The question comes from the implicit assumption

that God is some imagination, ideas, knowledge, belief, etc. in the

mind and what I see out there is definitely not " God " .

So it is better to rephrase the question back to What God is first.

When that is understood, all questions by Tabalchiji will get

answered.

Consider the following dialogue:

Q: Do you have a doubt about your own existence?

A: No, I know I exist beyond a shadow of doubt. It is so obvious to

me!

Q: How do you know you exist?

A: I don't know HOW, but I am sure I DO!

Q: Do you need any help of another person, scripture, or some

logical explanation to confirm you do exist?

A: Definitely not, even if they say I don't exist, I know I do,

because it is experiential within me now. I don't even need any

sense organs-mind-intellect to tell me I exist!

 

So, it is self-evident existence, of " beingness " we all feel within

us, and by which we know what is knowable in this world as objects

of knowledge. This experience of Being Conscious is always with us,

never are we away from IT, not even in our sleep when body-mind-

world are all gone no one knows where! But I am always!

I just have to find out that ultimately this " I " is Impersonal and

is of the nature of Existence-Consciousness which we call God!

Personal God of Bhakta appears in this Impersonal!

Based on this, I can conclude that God is not a particular object

among many objects we know through sense organs, mind and intellect.

It is THE UNIQUE and objectless EXPERIENCE!

It is like our eyes who cannot see themselves and yet know their

existence beyond any shadow of doubt because SEEING takes place

automatically by just Being.

Once it is grasped, it can lead to God Realization!

Namaskar...

 

Pratap Bhatt

 

-------------------------------

 

My dear Sarphod,

There is a very beautiful story from ancient times that I have

heard from my guru. Once, a king called his minister and said, " I

want you to answer two questions.....otherwise your position will be

at stake.....first, can you show me God. Secondly, what is God

doing right now?

The minister was in anxiety. He went home, began searching

through various scriptures....wondering if he would have a job the

next day. His small son approached him, and noticing his father's

perplexity, inquired, " What troubles you, father? " The father

responded, " Oh, this is not something you would understand. " At

the child's persistence, the father finally explained. The small

child smiled, and simply said, " Father, that is so easy to

answer.....just tell the king that even a small child can answer

these inquiries, and I will then give him my responses " .

The father had no choice, as he didn't know the way to

respond. So, when the child came before the king, he requested the

king, " First, please have a pot of milk brought forth. " The king did

so. Then the child inquired, " Is there ghee in this milk? " The

king said, " Yes, it is there. " Then the child explained, " It is

there, but you cannot see it. Why can you not see the ghee? " The

king said, " There is a process by which the ghee will be brought

forth, of course, first one must churn the milk into butter, then

the butter is slowly heated until the ghee rises to the

surface......only after one patiently follows this process will he

see the ghee. " As the king was speaking, slowly realization came

into his heart, that similarly, one cannot demand to see God at this

moment....there is a process. One who's heart is not pure, who

does not have love and devotion, cannot see the Lord, but He will

certainly reveal Himself to those who are willing to accept the

process of " bringing forth the ghee " .

The child then said, " You are asking me what God is doing.

That is putting me in the postion of teacher, and you as disciple.

So, is it appropriate for you to be sitting on your throne, if you

are learning from me? " The wise King immediately pleced the child

on the throne, and sat in front of him, ready to try to understand

his next lesson. " This is what God is doing " ....he said. " He is

taking someone from a low position and putting him into a high

position, according to the results of his work, and taking someone

else from a high position and putting him into a low position. "

The king was very pleased with the child's answers, and rewarded him

and his father.

So, one may say, " I don't accept such simplistic

responses " .....well, then, such a person will never see the Lord,

unless and until he is fortunate enough to get the association of a

sadhu, by whose association one's heart melts. When one truly

comes into contact and develops some sukrti by contact with a God

consscious person, there is no material, anaytical way to explain

what happens. It is beyond our mundane intelligence, our ability to

analyze. So, simply pray for the youth you are hoping to guide,

and gradually perhaps the mercy of the sadhus will come to them.

It is not a mechanical process.

I hope my words have been gentle, encouraging, and helpful.....it

is truly a sadness which we all share as parents if our children

become somewhat agnostic or doubtful of the underestanding of the

Lord's presence, and the need for ancient, eternal tradition. We

can only pray to be the best examples of loving, patient friends for

them that we can possibly be.

 

respectfully,

Mahalaksmi Dasi

 

-------------------------------

Sarphod,

 

Read Paramahansa Yogananda's book " the Autoibgraphy of a Yogi "

published by Self Realization Fellowship, Los Angeles, CA.

 

Haley H. Haynes

--------------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

In this posting I would like to build on my previous post.

We as parents must deeply understand the truth of who we are, what

is the nature of world and God first. Then only we can explain to

our children. I would shy away to tell children that because it is

said in our scriptures, you have to believe in God being such and

such.

 

We can begin on the path of knowledge with the premise. That which

always IS irrespective of time, location or cause, is Truth. Truth,

thus, cannot be denied and has to be our continuous experience

always, not some states we experience that come and go, rather That

in which all states of experiences happen.

 

In the beginning it may sound like intellectual, but understanding

of that which always IS, has to be our real nature, or Reality of

whatever we all seem to experience dawns on us sooner rather than

later. What is Reality, then?

If we continue to inquire, we may find that whether I am in joyful,

or painful or sad or indifference or even in depressed

situations, " I am " always present and " knowingness " of these various

situations I am in is also always present too, which I never notice

due to my attachments/aversions to situations. These situations

eventually disappear but not " I " .

What is the nature of this I that we all say I when referring to

ourselves? Whatever it is, for sure it IS! This ISNESS-I is the most

certain experience and is Truth. Even if I see illusion, I or seeing

is the truth. This seeing then is communicated as I see an object(or

hear, taste, smell, touch, think, feel etc). I and seeing is

synanymous as consciousness.

 

Now extend this to outer world. Regardless of objects we perceive

out there, Being Conscious of them is the only truth of our

experience. Thus, alleged external world is nothing but ONE

Undivided/Whole Existence/Consciousness(Absolute) in our experience.

Mind is given to us to divide the Existence into different objects

for practical and Divine play. When we come to this understanding,

our attitude towards world changes to one of dispassion, devotion

and to serve it as God, in whatever ways we can. We see God

everywhere our eyes fall upon!

This is God relization.

Namaskar.............Pratap Bhatt

 

GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES:

1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify their doubts

related to Gitaji shlokas. Therefore, responses which further

clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be posted.

2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to

substantiate your response.

3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the

extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas

4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting

sadhaka's time.

5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only.

6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other

organizations.

7. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone

number, address etc.

8. Please do not address the response to a particular individual

since the message is going to the entire group.

9. Due to the large readership, all responses may not be posted.

10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if content

is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the group.

11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth,

westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use to Sanskrit

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wherever possible.

 

MODERATOR

Ram Ram

------------------------

 

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Posted
Posted

My question is that how to prove that there exists a super natural

power called " God " ? At least how to explain that. How to correlate

His existence with the character of the world? Children now a days

need more than belief to accept. Can there be any way vide which we

can establish that God exists. If some body says say :

1. Where is God I have never seen Him?

2. Who has seen Him?

3. How is He?

4. If I dont know how do I accept?

5. God is a term coined by elders to put moral shackles over us so

that we may indulge in goodness.

6. There has to be some basis for his existence? What are the logics

which point towards the existence of God? From where to pick the

thread?

 

Sarphod Tabalchi

 

 

NEW POSTING

 

Hi Sarphod Tabalchi,

1. Where is God I have never seen Him?

It seems you never tried to see God. Seeing God is not possible by

our physical eye. Those who have an insight of God only can see God.

If you try sincerely seeing God is would not be a problem. There are

many ways prescribed in our scriptures. First, Have faith in it.

Then after you never deny God.

2. Who has seen Him?

I see Him always and communicate with Him. Not only with God, I talk

to birds and animals. I can understand them and they understand me.

3. How is He?

He is always Happy. He never deny anything. He never denied my

existence. He wants everyone happy.

4. If I dont know how do I accept?

Dont reejct anything. Accept everything as it is. Never expect

anything in your way accept everything as it is. Keep God in your

mind if you dont know God. Chant Oh God Oh God Oh my God whenever

you want deny God.

5. God is a term coined by elders to put moral shackles over us so

that we may indulge in goodness.

If you know this much of God you should not deny God.

6. There has to be some basis for his existence? What are the logics

which point towards the existence of God? From where to pick the

thread?

First you ask your Parents who are patient to teach you the basic

concept of God existence. Once you have prerequesites to learn God

God comes to you automatically. Be Patient. Can you ever see the

electricity passing through a wire. A bulb is shining, Have you ever

enquired about the electricity which illumines the bulb? Think about

TV., Fridge, Air Conditioner etc., etc. whcih can not function

without electricity. Even you can not ask these questions without

that power unseen in you. My dear beleive in God is far easier than

denying God.

Lovingly, Krishna (Shobha) Das

 

------------------------

Wonderful testing of sadhaks by Tabalchi ji

We all must thank him for the excellent questions and for giving an

opportunity to better our understanding in the spiritual domain.

 

All questions have very easy answers. Excellent expression by all

sadhaks...in answering these.

 

But it is very difficult to satisfy the questioner on the answers.

since these very questions cloud everything....and become obstacles

to understanding the truth

since it is about knowing the questioner first............knowing or

seeing God comes much later.....

 

It has happened to perhaps all of us in the beginning and we may

have gone through this period.

But if we are able to contemplate on the questions with some

guidance, question begin to dissolve/disappear........and the

answers start looking meaningful........

 

So, Tabalchi ji and the begum sahiba could start with contemplating

exercise on the questions first

for example:

 

Q1 Where is God? ----contemplate on......where it should be? what

could be the place where it could be,

why it can not be hear with us?

Q2 Does God exist? ---- Contemplate on.....Who am I? ask yourself

repeatedly who am I?

Q3 Who has seen him is irrelevant? My seeing is important so

contemplate on questions - Why I don't see the God? Can I see it?

What could it look like? What should it be?

Q4 If I don't know how do I accept? Contemplate on What I don't

know? Do I know all? How can I know more?

Q5 Any other word other than God could be used for it. Contemplate

on: Is goodness gives happiness? Are moral values important? Why

we need to fear the word God to be good?

Q6 Contemplate on questions: What is basis of its existence? What

is the basis of our existence? What God must exist? Why prophets

have to come to this world? Who are these prophets?

 

See what comes as answers. It is a good learning

exercise......answers are within and we must practice to start

listening.....everyone has to do this for himself..............best

wishes......Thank you....

Sushil Jain

 

----------------------------

Dear Sarphod:

 

I have similar questions that you have.

 

Following is the status of those questions (mind you not answers):

 

1. Just beacuse I can not see GOD, that does not mean that there is

nothing like GOD which exists, since there are so many things that

exist and yet I can not see (ex: Air, Gases and so many unknowns to

mankind yet)

 

2. Same way as I have the question on the existence of GOD, I also

have the question on my question itself, i.e. I can not prove that

there is no GOD either.

 

3. Say suppose some one suddenly shows me the GOD, what are my tests

and verifications to accept him/her/it as GOD. Do I have all those

tools, a big NO (I am not sure about you)

 

4. Even if I have all those tools to test the existence of GOD and

all the tests are proved positive, then is it going to help me. That

means, do I have the right objective to find out this very unusual

thing called GOD? What is that single biggest thing that is

bothering me about finding out this GOD? Does it have the

seriousness to find out the GOD? If it does all the above questions

should be answerd positively. Or else, I am not sincere in my quest.

 

5. I might not have all these tools right now, yet I have the quest

to know about the existence of GOD, then I do not jump in to quick

conclusions like " There is no GOD, this forum is not DIVINE, etc., "

because that conclusion neither helps me nor taps in to the right

sources of knowledge. I will be just fooling myself saying " I asked

a question which this forum is not able to answer "

 

Just for the record, I remember in the whole known history of

mankind, only one person (Sri Ramakrishna Paramahansa) has admitted

to have seen GOD and was ready to show GOD to the one who was

earnestly with deepest intellectual anxiety and sincerity (Swami

Vivekananda).

 

The one who has shown and the one who was shown the GOD did not have

questions. The SOURCE and the SINK are in the perfect state of mind,

one to give and the other to receive. Am I in the equanimity levels

of Swami Vivekananda? I don't think I am and let me know if you are.

 

If you think you are, just stay there with sincere hope, A

RAMAKRISHNA will happen to you and your intellectual quest might be

fulfilled.

 

If not I need to get there before I start looking for GOD. Till such

time, GOD is tentative truth for me.

 

With a hope it might help you,

Sincerely,

Krishna (devangam krishnamurthy)

 

Hare Krishna

 

Sarphod, you have praised me by saying " I am very good " . FYI! I was

not entertaining you but I was questioning YOUR very existence. You

don't have any doubt in your existence still you cannot prove it.

Why so?? Have you thought over it?? If you can prove it (with your

logic/rationale) then why don't you do it?

 

Mikeji called you brilliant (I wonder why) but he has also called

you inflexible. But I think you have not noted that. He, Vyasji,

Pratapji and others have also given many points. You should think

over it, compare it with your logic and then prove it wrong. But for

this one need guts, because you will have to keep aside your

prejudices to think over others' points. Even if you are not able to

prove us wrong it does not mean that we can make you accept God, we

can only give logics/rationale.

 

No one can force anyone to accept God, especially those who do not

respect their father. If you cannot respect your father than how can

you accept and respect the biggest father (Param-Pita

Parmeshwar).Your father has deserted you and your wife also seems to

be upset with your adamant attitude, but you still don't have any

shame in admitting it. Rather than introspecting over your attitude

you are defending it.

 

Pratapji has not passed any judgment; it is you who is passing

judgments. Mike is best, Varun is very good, Vyas NB is making me

think. If these are not judgements then what is it? Pratapji has

correctly pointed out that you are not reading posts with an open

mind.

 

You have posted these questions only because your wife has directed

you to this group. This is the biggest problem because you are not

interested in knowing or learning anything, you are only asking

these questions just for the sake of it, just for a mere formality.

 

Mrs. Sarphod, please don't insist your husband to post questions. He

is only wasting our time and also don't reveal him anything about

Gita, because if you do so you will unnecessarily incur sin (Gita

18.67)

 

You cannot see God or feel His presence but you definitely feel your

existence as " I AM " , right? Then why can't you prove it with your

logic. I have asked 3 questions w.r.t. your existence but did not

get any reply.

 

Hare Krishna

Varun P. Paprunia

---------------------Jai Hanuman

 

Mr Sarphod ! So you do not think or talk or desire regarding "

flower of sky " - because it does not exist. You yourself said that.

You can think/desire/talk about only that thing which exists.

 

Now this is the biggest proof. You thought about God. You talked

about God. You desired to know about God. You raised questions in

this forum about God. How can you do that- if God does not exist?

 

If you can do that then why did you not talk about " flower of sky " ?

As a law you can desire about only that thing which exists.

 

Answer now! To the point only. ONLY to the point.

 

You said yourself that you would believe in your parents even if

they were dead immediately after your birth, because there is a

basis. The presence of yourself itself is an indicator of their

existence. True. Now go backwards. Presence of your parents means

your grand parents were there. Go backwards and keep going. In the

end you will find one male and one female. Who were their parents?

 

God is " Param Pita " - our eternal father.

 

Clear?

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

 

 

 

----------------------

Hari Om

 

You wanted as to what is sample of God. Answer as given by Varunji

is correct. You , yourself, are " sample " of God ! Because like God,

you are also permanent and faultless. Everybody " experiences " that -

I EXIST. ( You talked about experiencing- I am talking about

experience only) . Do you have any doubt Mr Sarphod that you are not

existing ? You never have any doubt on this. You never conduct any

test to determine whether you exist or not. You never

experience/feel that - I DID NOT EXIST. About past you may say

that " I don't know " , but you can't say " I didn't exist " ! How can

you say so?

 

Why can't you say? Because you have never perceived your " self " to

be non existing. Non existence of your " self " has never come into

your experience. Even in respect of the daily occuring of deep

sleep, your experience never suggests that at that time you were non

existent. But at the same time you experience directly the

absence of ego, intellect, mind and body etc., in the deep sleep.

 

So you exist.

So He exists.

 

Now you are constantly experiencing changes/temporariness in your

body. Who can experience that? Only that element (Self) which is

permanent and changeless and who is looking separately can

experience so..

 

So you are permanent. You are witness. You are changeless. You are

not body. You exist both with or without body. You exist.

 

Similarly God is also permanent. God is also witness. God is also

changeless. God exists both with or without body. God exists.

 

So you exist. At present you are existing Mr Sarphod Now in your

body. In which part of the body you are existing Mr Sarphod? In

which part of the body you are not existing Mr Sarphod? In fact you

are existing everywhere in the body.

 

God exists everywhere in the universe as you exist everywhere in

the body.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

------------------------------

By summery of GITA: " Tat Twam Asi " or 'That You Are'

This logic is explained by Many in different way, as Jesus : " Keep

your self as pure as a Temple, so that GOD can reside in you "

As the world today is more scientific, we require proof by our

Senses.

No machine can prove Logic.

By psychologist EEG machine shows that Yog has a point when we gain

energy from vast outer energy when we Join our inner energy during a

meditative state.

Todays scientific terms were not expressed before. So we can say

positive Energy in us and arround is GOD.

This GOD creates and increases, but the negative energy will grow

only to destroy and eliminate named 'devil' !

The different State of Mind or Self is depicted in the Epics of

Ramayana and Mahabharata by the characters playing in the theatre of

this World.

The Conditions of Heaven and Hell are also due to this state of self.

 

'Tat Twam Asi' in definition of GOD as 'Bramah-Vishnu-Maheshwar' is

also what we see in us.

Psychological mind as Male-Female has in us as a Child, Learning and

Creating with help of 'Sarswati-Bramah'. Then as we are in our

Youth, we Earn and Run our life with the help of 'Laxmi-Vishnu'. At

the end of life our Old age, Eliminate and Destroy many beliefs with

the help of 'Shakti-Shiv'. Thus we prepare our self for the next

birth. The Energy, called 'spirit' by many, is indistructible and

change form. We can ralise it and can even see as Vivekananda(non

believer of statue) was shown by Guru Ramakrishna(ardent idol

worshiper). The idol is the Mirror to see our self !

--

Regards

Swapan PURKAYASTHA

 

 

 

--------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

 

Dear Sarphod:

 

I adore your persistence to what you think is right - that is a good

quality to seek truth. At the same time, I am a bit disappointed in

its lopsidedness! It is not clear what you want, frankly.

 

I have two questions for you: Are you afraid of " God " ? Do you urge

for " God " ?

 

If " YES " to any of these questions, you have a problem. You can't

stick to your current logical conviction. It is obvious that your

current logical conviction irrespective of its self-proclaimed

excellence is JUST NOT DOING ITS JOB :(. Your logical provess can

claim accolades ONLY IF it removes your fears and quench your

desires.

If not removal, at least a nominal reduction in their intensity is

warranted ... if your intellect is working straight.

 

If " NO " to any of these questions, I see a bigger problem. Why are

you confusing yourself with these questions. That " NO " becomes

meaningless just because you are incapable of letting the very

questions go! The very reason you are raising these questions prove

that you are infested either by fear or by desire or by both

regarding " God " . THAT IS EXCELLENT!

 

Then, it is " YOUR " primary responsibility to address the same. As I

mentioned earlier, your current intellect is incapable of helping you

out. Then, you have to make a shift in your thinking to inspect the

ignorance harbored within. Pardon me for calling it ignorance. But,

the fact is ... it is. Inherent fears and desires can never let an

individual happy. They create the turbulence within in terms of

themselves. The existence of miseries is proof enough that we are not

applying our intellect in the right direction. After all, it is

common sense that we do everything ONLY FOR ONE REASON - to be

happy. I am sure you agree with it.

 

The question is are you happy with these questions as such or are you

really interested in a possible solution. If you are happy with these

questions, be happy. You can never get the solution though! If you

really need a solution, QUESTION the very questions. That is the only

way out left for you to be happy. Do you have any other choice? If

you have, please pursue. Being happy is the bottom line of all

actions ... being happy ... being happy but nothing else.

 

Nobody can instruct you what God Is! You have to figure it out

yourself.

 

I don't know who misled you that this or anything specific " is a

devine forum " as if anything else is not! If you seek divinity,

everything is devine. If not, some may claim " divinity " as if the

rest is not. Please do not get trapped into such notions ... if you

really want to seek clarity regarding your question. Question your

questions ... TRUTHFULLY. You will see the end of the tunnel.

 

Again, PLEASE DO NOT EXPECT OR INSIST FOR EXPLICIT INSTRUCTIONS

REGARDING GOD. YOU WILL NOT GET ANY ANSWER ... UNLESSS ... YOU SEE IT

WITHIN YOURSELF! The only suggestion I can make is ... look for IT

within. Because, looking out all these years has seemingly remained

futile! There is no point in digging into others' psyche when mine is

not receptive enough. If I insist to continue, I can guarantee myself

of more confusion to come!! Because ... GOD cannot be held within any

" psyche " as such.

 

Anyway, just few suggestions to think about ... think about it if you

want ... ONLY IF YOU WANT.

 

All The Best.

 

Respects.

 

Naga Narayana

 

 

 

 

PRIOR POSTING

Dear " Sadhaks " (?)

 

Why my simple questions are not getting answered. Shashikalajee

asked me some questions, instead of replying to me. I , upon the

advice of my Begum Saahiba humbly replied to her. Now instead of

responding to me, she has given a conversation between a son and his

mother. My Begum is insisting to me that I should again and again

read that. OK I will do that. But let me answer her another

question. I have not desired to smell " flower of sky " , because it

does not exist. Sometimes I feel that both my Begum Sahibaa and you

Sadhaks have lost mind. What a funny question Shashikalajee has

asked. How can I desire or talk or know about a thing which doesn " t

exist? This is my basic fundamental and solid argument. Vyas N B is

giving indicators which require me to think. I am thinking. But the

best among you is Mike Keenor. He told me to remain solid. He

adviced me to remain tenacious, merciless and hang on. I am hanging

on. But then why Vineet Sarvottam told me lies? Varun Paprunia gave

him a fitting reply. Varun - you are very good. This Pratap Bhatt

is rebuking me. Why? What is my fault. On one hand you are simply

giving me round round answers. On other hand you are passing

judgement. Is this a conduct of a sadhak. Please reply to me. Or

say - none of you have capacity to answer my simple questions. My

Begum Sahibaa has already started crying. Have mercy on her at

least. But Mike praised me. He called me " brilliant " .

 

Waiting for answers.

 

Sarphod Tabalchi

---------------------------

We all struggle with these questions. The answers I found logical is

this: There is something beyond mind and matter. Some will call that

something Omnipotent, Omniscient, Omnipresent. Others will call it

random nothing. Another question one hears is why do I want to know

That Something. To Know, or to Control it? Here in lies the paradox

and answer: If it is to know only: He is right there with you,

within you: The Life, Love Peace. If it is to control so that we

control our surrounding: That is the struggle of Ego. Arjuna had to

see the Universal form to get over the final hurdle.

Jay Shree Krishna.

 

Hemendra Parikh

-------------------------------

Dear devotees of Lord Krishna,

The discussion is interesting. I learned the gita much better after

seeing the life experience of a realized lady, who had darshan of

Lord Krishna ( first darshan of Lords feet after chanting a sloka

from 10 th chapter of Gita for 30,000 times continuously for 30

days ). Her conversations with the Lord have been recorded in

Tamil, and can be shared with the group if interested.

With kind regards,

Sincerely,

P.Vivekanandan

-------------------------------

 

Try Brahmacharya ( the vow of celibacy in thought, word and deed, by

which one attains Self-realisation or reaches Brahman) and you will

see for yourself the value.

 

The Srutis declare: " Naayam Atma balaheenena labhyah - This Atman is

not attainable by a weak man. " In the Gita you will

find: " Yadichhanto brahmacharyam charanti - That desiring which

Brahmacharya is performed " (Chap. VIII-11). " Trividham narakasyedam

dvaram nasanamatmanah; kamah krodhastatha lobhastasmad etat trayam

tyajet - O Arjuna! Triple is the gate of the hell, destructive of

the Self; lust, wrath and greed: therefore let man renounce these

three " (Chap. XVI-21). " Jahi satrum mahabaho kamarupam durasadam -

Kill this powerful enemy, passion, by the observance of

Brahmacharya " (Chap. III-43).

 

If we are determined to attain the goal of life by leading a pure

life, we must keep this mind busily engaged in Divine thoughts,

concentration, meditation, study and service of humanity.

 

It is difficult to eradicate lust. But you need not despair even a

bit. Have faith in God, in His Name and in His grace. Lust cannot be

completely rooted out of the mind except by the grace of the Lord.

You are bound to succeed if you have faith in Him. The Divine Grace

is needed. God helps those who help themselves.

 

Until man continues to cling to worldliness, Paramatma cannot be

grasped by him.

 

You can read more about this in the " Easy Steps to Yoga " by Sri

Swami Sivananda.

chirag almoula

 

--------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

 

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

Tabalchiji, with all the respect for you and questions, I may point

out that no one can make anyone see anything let alone God if that

person doesn't want to see. It seems like you may be insistent upon

seeing God in the way you want to see.

Please forgive me if I am wrong, but as a friend I am saying. It

seems like you may not have read the postings with open mind, with

the desire to know the truth. Open mind doesn't mean accepting, it

means you must give a fair reading/hearing and then asking pertinent

questions or raise doubts based on what is read. Here your responses

indicate you have decided that God cannot exist for you if you

cannot see or have some logic to prove God's existence. One has to

see that " seeing God " means deep understanding of intuitive nature

in this context where mind being limited cannot comprehend. It has

to be prepared to be open. Our conditioned mind is incapable of

grasping truth.

Some of us provided solid logic, but it still fell short to make you

see the pointers.

I said one cannot say " I don't see God " without knowing what God he

is looking that he cannot find. One has to know what one wants to

see, right? One can say " I don't know God, tell me what/where I

should look, and how to recognize " . It is different than show me

God, right?

Once again, God is the Conscious/Intelligent Existence as reflected

in our experience of " I am " right now as you read these words. In

first posting, dialogue was used to illustrate it as a solid proof

one cannot deny.

There are ways to experience God for which senses-mind-intellect is

not capable like they are for knowing objects. Nevertheless, there

is proof of God more reliable than that.

But this point didn't make any impression.

I request you with humility to re-read responses again and see what

happens!

Namaskar..............Pratap Bhatt

-------------------------------

Hare Krishna

 

Okay Mr. Sarphod,

 

Let's put God's existence out of equation for a moment and only

discuss about sample/logics/rationales w.r.t. YOUR existence.

 

I AM

 

Well, you don't have any doubt in your existence, right? Your body

has changed and it is rapidly changing every second. But Mr.

Sarphod, is you also changing with the body? You are certainly not

changing with it because if you were changing then who would have

known the change in body? You are that changeless element who knows

the change in body. Isn't it? Childhood, youth, old age are the

changing phases of the body but you are that changeless element who

is witness to all these changes. It is a law that only a changeless

element can perceive the ever-changing element. My question - What

is the basis of your never-changing existence? If you consider

body's existence as your existence then you are defying all logic,

because body is changing every second!!!

 

I and MINE

 

It is a law that whatever is mine, it is never I. For example you

consider your house, car, wife, children etc. as mine but you never

consider them as I. But in the case of body you say 'my hands, my

legs, my stomach, my ears, my eyes, my throat etc.' and

simultaneously you also consider it as 'I' e.g. I am not feeling

well. You establish two transversal relationships with the body,

that of 'I' and 'MINE'. Whichever thing is mine it is always apart

(separate) from you, and that thing which is separate from you, how

can it be I? This body is also apart from you but still you call it

as I. Is this logical?

 

Mr. Sarphod, now I wish to see you. Can you show me yourself???

Ohh... please don't show me that body which you claim it as mine. I

want to see that Mr. Sarphod who claims the body as mine. In other

words, I want to see that element which you refer to as I?

 

Before that I am eager to know whether you have ever seen yourself.

According to you anything that exists is perceptible. So Mr.

Sarphod, with which instrument have you seen yourself?

 

If you have not seen yourself then, well ..... do you exist ?????

 

And at last one more question- Whose name is Sarphod - body or

yourself?

 

Mr. Sarphod, with your logics/samples/rationales etc., first prove

 

1. Your existence.

2. The basis of your existence.

3. The instrument with which you have seen/felt your existence.

 

Then we will also discuss about God's existence....

 

As Sarphodji is contemplating over his existence, in the mean time,

those sadhaks whose faith in God has dwindled with his questions,

they are requested to read this Sadhaka posting

sadhaka/message/2108

 

Hare Krishna

Varun P. Paprunia

-------------------------------

 

Jai Hanuman

 

(Shrimad Bhagvad Geeta- Marathi Edition- By Saint Gyaaneshwarji-

Chapter 13- Kalyaan- By Narainduttji Gaur )

 

Jeeva ( J) (We all- as referred in BG 15:7) :

 

Mom pls tell me , when I was born?

 

Maya , Mother Nature, Prakrati, Illusion (As referred in BG 7: 13/14)

( M ) :

 

( Irritated) What non sense! Is it some thing to be told? (By a Mom

to Son?)

 

J: If mother doesn't tell, who will?

 

M: How to tell you? I came only after you !

 

J: Typical Mom ! Means- I came first and then you? Surprising? Isn't

it?

 

M: You won't understand. Be silent and sleep!

 

J: Come On ! First me ..! And then You ...!! (How can it be?) Pls

tell me the story ! Please !!

 

M: I told you. You won't understand! Many big people even could not.

 

J: Ok ! Then my Father can let me understand. Take me to Him, please.

 

M: ( Curtly) Stop this song of Father, Father. Your Father is Father

only for the name sake.In fact, I have to do every thing.

 

J: Does He not do anything?

 

M: What can He do? He is old, ancient, poor fellow (eternal) ! Then

totally actionless! Absolutely non-doer! Neither hands, nor legs,

nor eyes, nor ears! Nothing in fact! Look Kid ! Whatever colour ,

form etc of the world which you are seeing is my miracle, my form,

my competence, my work ! Ok? Your Father has neither any form, nor

any beauty. What beauty He can impart to the world?

 

J: But all say that He is the real Creator. See Mom! Whatever is my

Father, He is my Father! Ok? His insult...??

 

M: Insult! What insult? Whose insult? One who does not have any

caste or creed, any family or varna, any city or village- what can

be His respect or disrespect?

 

J: How bad He will feel, if He listens to what you are saying?

 

M: Even if He gets annoyed, what can He do? One who neither moves,

nor walks, nor travels, nor laughs, nor cries, nor speaks, neither

any juice, nor any taste, nor any play !!! This entire

exhibition/show I run, Dear Son !!

 

J But out there on Gate (of the circus) His name is written, O Mom !!

 

M: Ultimately you will take side of your Father only. Afterall you

are His son!

 

J: O Mom of the Universe! Why did not you put name of yours on the

front gate of this Great Circus? ( The world)

 

M: How to put my name. This is the real trgedy. You won't

understand, Son. I, the creator and controller of uncountable

universes can not do any thing by my name!! (Ramcharitmanas- 5/21/4)

 

J: Don't be sad and sorry Mom! What is the matter?

 

M: It is very secret, Son! If by seeing my banner outside the gate,

if somebody wants to meet with me, he will be disappointed. Son!

Please understand my pain. One is lazy ( does nothing), has no

organs, is actionless- those who want to search such (an element)

person , they search Him merely by His name! (Ramcharitmanas-

1/26/2). But to me, even when I am controlling entire sentient and

insentient world, if some body wants to search, CANNOT find! Cannot

search.

 

J: Why not Mom?

 

M: (With tears in her eyes) Because, in reality, I don't exist. I am

false. I am asat. I am non existent. My " not being " is my " being " .

Whatever is not- I am that. I am no-thing.

 

J: And whatever is there, that is who? Who is that?

 

M: He is your Father, Son!

 

J: (In mind, talking with himself only, Son thinks/says - Hats off

to you Mom! When you don't exist, then this is the scene of the

world that even Lord Shiva , Brahma are afraid of you -

Ramcharitmanas 7/71/8- had you existed " actually " Mom then.....)

 

O my No-thing Mom! When you don't even exist , then on whose power

you run this circus called the world?

 

M: What to tell you, Son? I can tell you only this much that, of

Whose a mere flicker of eyebrow, I do rule the uncountable

universes, I can't dare/ don't have courage to face Him. I do run

this circus only on His strength.

 

J : O My Unconquerable Mom! My hundreds of Pranaams to you. Bless

me , O Mom! So that I may get my Father!!

 

While bowing and doing Pranaams to his mother, Jeeva became

tranquilised and then in the background divine music played-

 

" MAAMEVA YA PRAPADYANTE, MAYAMETAM TARANTI YE "

 

(BG 7:14)

 

He was He only!

 

Namaste Jee.

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

-------------------------------

-Shri Hari-

 

My dear Sarphodji,

 

A few points to consider, I have said I have been touched by the

Divine,(just one way of putting it), such Grace is life changing, I

could be lying or be mad,(I tell the truth), but I know just by

reading the things fellow Sadhaks have written that I AM NOT ALONE.

Some people come to Bhagwan with ease and joy others take the path of

fire so to speak, (the hard miles).

 

In the west there is an expression,'The Dark Night of The Soul', and

yes! If it is known in the west it is most absolutely known in the

Indian Traditions.(I think Arjuna's predicament reflects that),I will

stay using the terminology to which I am most familiar.

You say you are deserted, you are not deserted, the Brethren have not

deserted you, and in the Darkest Moment of the Soul, there is a light

shining, that light comes from 'That', which will wash away you

tears, 'That' which will break your heart so that you can be

mended. Your arguments are not solid dear Brother, not to those that

have felt the embrace of The Beloved. Your inflexibility, combined

with your determined search, may well introduce you to 'The Dark

Night...', the very ONE you rebuked the most, will be the one that

rescues you. I speak from experience not from books.

 

With Respect and Divine Love,

 

Mike Keenor

 

 

 

 

 

PRIOR POSTING

Hari Om

 

If sadhaks can concentrate on giving short pointers / rationale

which establishes the existence of Supreme Power it will help all

in being definitive, have reference material and it will also

strengthen faith. Ego, Intellect and Mind don't let you agree that

easily. And who knows who may need in the coming turbulent era of

Kaliyug, that is lacking in faith and belief. Let us get united.

 

From discourses of Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj (Taat Shree), whom I

have solely relied on for a number of years -

 

Every human being wants the following:

 

1) To " live for ever " . This is desire for SAT (existence). Fear of

death is the indicator of that desire.

2) To know every thing. No one wants to be unknowlegeable. This is

desire for CHIT (Knowledge).

3) To be happy. No one wants to be unhappy. This is desire for

ANANDA.

 

Any doubt Mr Sarphod? Now if there is a desire then the element to

fulfill that desire must also be there. There must be some one /

some element which enables you to " live for ever " , to be all knowing

and to be ever blissful. Had such an element not existed, we would

not have had the desire for the same.

 

Paramatma is SAT-CHIT-ANANDA.(Sachchidananda)

 

Raam! Raam!! Raam!!!

 

To be continued.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

------------------------------

 

Dear Tabalchi ji,

 

According to J. Krishnamurti " modern so called educated " people want

a little bit of intellectual amusement and therefore they indulge in

meaningless discussions about God and such matters. God cannot be

discussed in this manner, because That Absolute Truth (give

It/Her/Him any name) is beyond description.

Your all the six questions are like the enquiries of a " full

stomach " tourist without an iota of appetite going through the menu,

or reading it aloud with his co-friends. If you are really thirsty

you will not indulge in such childish questions about water, but

will try your best to drink it.

 

I suggest you read Uncommon Wisdom and other books by Dr Capra (a

physic scientist) who has quoted from our Sanskrit literature about

God, or read A Brief History of Time by Hawking Stephens (well known

expert on dark hole and universe) to know the concept of time and

space. At least do go through some writings by Nobel laureate Dr

Edington (a scientist). Only then, you can be a little serious about

exploring the great Absolute Truth. Become " jyan-vijyan-triptah " and

only then we can walk together on this spiritual quest.

 

Regards,

Suresh C. Sharma

------------------------

 

Sir,

You are asking the oldest question ever being asked. See around

you, a sperm has made you upto approximately 6 feet. Who designed

this project and process. Your father and mother only are tools.

Inquire within and get the answer.

 

surender syal

--------------------------------

 

Mitro,

Why has this God become famous as " HE " why not " she " or " IT "

or " Nothing " ? Today's generation will not believe in gibberish

bakwaas . The paradox is every religion, every saint says that God

is ONE. But even within Hindus philosophy we see thousands of gods

(many names and forms). If God is One then why all the differences

and the fights? How come? Ramchander Homma

 

------------------------------

I agree with Luca Brasi that I should be fairly replied. I have

asked a lot of questions. I want proof/logic and I want to know How

is that Supreme. I want sample. I want rationale. My Begum Saahibaa

also told me that I am head breaker like your Shashikaljee told me.

But I never agreed with her so far. I never admitted this version.

I am not head or skull breaker. My name suggests that I am mind

fixer. Any way how the name matters? I am what I am. I accept my

parents because even if I dont remember my birth, they remember

that. They know that I am their child. I can see them. I can feel

them. I can experience them. I can recognise them. That is why they

are my parents. Where is God? How can I accept God on the grounds

that since I did not know my parents at the time of birth and I

accepted hence I should accept God also. Children are children. They

dont understand. But I am adult. I understand. My Begum Sahibaa

could not satisfy me and hence she asked me to get in touch with you

She said you will satisfy me.I checked with her that I am not

satisfied even after, because I have MOST SOLID arguments, then

what? Even my father deserted me because he could not satisfy me.

She said such situation will not arise. If I cant see , I cant

accept. Prove to me how one can accept without seeing or feeling or

experiencing or logic or rationale or basis. At least I should feel

or experience. Even if my parents were dead at the time of birth,

still I would accept that because how can I come without them on

this earth. What is your answer? Pratap or Vineet or Mike or

Shashikala. My Begum Sahibaa said few things regarding observations

of Vineet also. Please reply- Sadhaks of this self

proclaimed " Divine " site. Dont go by my name. Even my Begum

Saahibaa complains regarding my name. What can I do regarding my

name Jee?

 

Sarphod Tabalchi

 

 

PRIOR POSTING

Hare Krishna

 

Sarphodji,

 

Not only can Parmatma be an individual he can also be a fish

(Matsya-avatar), a tortoise (Kachchap-avatar), a pig (varaha-avatar),

a half lion-half man (Narsimha-avatar) and what not!!!

According to Gita, not only can a devotee see God but also know Him

and also enter into Him.

 

Arjuna said

O universal form, O thousand-armed Lord, I wish to see You in Your

four-armed form, with diadem on your head with club, wheel, conch and

lotus flower in Your hands. I long to see You in that form. (11.46)

 

Sanjaya said

The Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krishna, having spoken thus to

Arjuna, displayed His real four-armed form and at last showed His

two-armed form, thus encouraging the fearful Arjuna. (11.50)

 

Lord Krishna said:

My dear Arjuna, this form of Mine you are now seeing is very

difficult

to behold. Even the demigods are ever seeking the opportunity to see

this form, which is so dear.

Neither by the study of Vedas, nor by penance, nor by charity, nor

even by rituals can I be seen in this form (with four-arms), as You

have seen Me.

O valiant Arjuna, through single-divided devotion, however, I can be

seen in this form (with four-arms), known in essence and even entered

into.

My dear Arjuna, he who performs all his duties for Me, depends on Me,

is devoted to Me, has no attachment, and is free from malice towards

all beings, reaches Me. (11.52-55)

 

Please give special attention to the last 2 verses. This will answer

your question of knowing and seeing God.

 

Yes, I have also read the same in Swamiji's book which your wife has

stated. I consider it to be true because I believe in Swamiji's

words.

 

Hare Krishna

Varun P. Paprunia

------------------------------

 

Hari Om

 

No! Sarphodji. Those who want to learn should read carefully and

should learn also to be patient. All sadhaks upto now have given

excellent observations. I have also given you logics/pointers and

will

continue to give you till you get satisfied. I agree with Luca that

there must be logics/rationale existing. It is another matter, as Mr

Vineet stated, that they are pointless once you proceed ahead. But

still questions are questions and your insistence , though, odd but

still should be respected. Your " Begum Sahibaa " appears to have

directed herself to peace. I wish you understood the hidden affection

in the in the message of Mike Keenor to you. Here are more

logics/pointers to you:

 

3. In life, we always find a higher person than ourselves. In every

field a higher person than one is existing. See around you, you will

find this statement to be true. Even the President of USA can not say

" I am the Highest " . Always a better /higher person than you is

existing. Now where does this " highness " end. If there is sense of

highness , then there must be an element which is " highest " . God is

that element. God is the HIGHEST.

 

4. You always need some " shelter " to survive. In the childhood you

need shelter of parents, teacher, etc. Then of education, ability,

wife, money, home, employers, what not. In old age, you need wife,

children, stick, doctor, medicines, health etc Sujects change but not

the need for shelter.. If there is consistent need for shelter , then

there must be an element existing of whose shelter is the ultimate

shelter. Is not it Mr Sarphod. ( You should argue on such in

principle

points. Check up with you Begum Sahibaa.) ? If you are thirsty ,

there

must be water existing on the planet. Now when you need always some

shelter or other, then there must be an element which can be

described

as " Highest Shelter available " ! God is " PARAM ASHRAYA DATA " Giver

of that shelter. If you take shelter of God, no other shelter will be

necessary,

 

5. We always want to be perfect. There is no doubt on that. But there

is also no doubt regarding the fact that we err. In fact " to err is

human " -this saying is prevalent on this planet from time immemorial.

Now if there is a desire to become perfect then there must exist an

element which is most perfect. Did you ever hear that there was a

difference of a fraction of a second even in timings of Sun rise and

Sun set? Is not everything moving to the perfection? Who can be more

perfect except God. God is the MOST PERFECT.

 

To be continued till you say " I am satisfied "

 

As regards your observation that " Nature " also creates/controls-

answer is that whether you believe that nature has " knowledge " ? If

yes, then that nature is our God. In our religion ( I don't know your

religion) SHAKTI is God also. But if according to you , the INERT

NATURE has no knowledge, then you have to accept God. Can inert

nature

take care of so many souls, operate Law of Karma, provide food to so

many creatures? If Yes- I don't mind calling that Nature to be God.

After all it is a matter only of " terminology " . If no then you must

accept that IF THERE IS DESIRE / NEED IN YOU TO BE PERFECT OR TO TAKE

SHELTER OR TO SEEK HIGHNESS then there exists an element to fulfil

that desire. That element is called " GOD/ PARAMATMA " . Logical ?

Does

it appeal to your logic Mr Sarphod? Check up with your Begum Sahibaa

and come back. Your arguments shall exhaust, not our arguments- be

sure on this. After all you are on GT Site !

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

-------------------------------

 

Dear Sarphod:

 

Wonderful! I like your guts to put this question across!! I was

startled to start with and even alarmed as I contemplated " thanks

for triggering the turbulence from which proceeds the peace as

always. "

 

Son goes to father and asks, " Father, what is God? " Father

answered, " Whatever drives your life, whatever sustains your life

and whatever absorbs your life is verily God my child. Think about

It! " The father was wise enough not to instruct what God is. The son

promptly contemplates in what his father said and came back, " Father,

fear drives all the lives. Fear sustains all the lives. Fear absorbs

all the life. Therefore, fear should be the god. " Father

remarks, " Good job! Keep thinking. " The son not knowing whether his

revelation was conclusive or not continues to contemplate. Son comes

back to father and declares, " Father, desire drives all the lives,

desire sustains all the lives and desire absorbs all the lives.

Therefore, the desire should be the god. " Father remarks again, Good

job! Keep thinking. " The son does not feel the conclusive

appreciation regarding the god - is it fear or desire? He continues

to contemplate and realizes that, the happiness drives all the

lives. Happiness sustains all the lives. And, happiness absorbs all

the lives. Therefore happiness should be the god.

 

Now he does not go back to his father as he has already felt the

wisdom behind his father's remarks. God is not something that can be

taught to, or preached to or transferred to anybody. It is the

notion within ... it is the imagination within ... it is the

deliberation within ... it is the understanding within ... it is the

appreciation within ... IT IS THE PRESENCE WITHIN in its core. The

son, accepting the challenge from his father to use the body, senses

and mind blessed to him, continues to contemplate.

 

He has seen the driving force, sustenance strength and absorption

power in the fear, in the desire as well as in the happiness. He

sees that the three divinities of creation, sustenance,and

absorption transcend the boundaries of his existential fears,

desires and happiness altogether integrating the whole universe of

knowns as well as unknowns - manifested as well as unmanifested -

mitigating the differences that were once prominent amongst the

three phases of life - fear, desire and happiness.

 

Then starts another dilemma - who is the god amongst these three

divinites that seem to determine what life is? Driving Force or

Sustenance Strength or Absorption Power? Again, he approaches his

father, the wisdom established within to contemplate on the dilemma.

 

The driving force comes first to claim the unclaimed post of The

God. On ruthless examination, the driving force starts wondering

aloud that it itself should have been driven by something else. The

new driving force wonders the same and so on. The driving force digs

up an infinite legacy of its own kind beneath lost in the oblivion

of the past. It returns back in frustration not withstanding what

the driving force could really be.

 

The absorption power jumps in next to claim the still unclaimed post

of The God. Again, the wisdom starts the same gruelling scrutiny.

The power under sharp vigilence starts whithering away to wonder if

it absorbs everything there should be something to absorb itself.

The new absorbing power wonders the same way and so on. The

absorption power piles up an infinite heirarchy of its own kind

above lost in the oblivion of the future. It returns back in

frustration not withstanding what the absorption power could ever

be.

 

The empty throne is still awaiting to be filled. The sustenance

strength walks to claim the post in confidence. The valiant wisdom

does its job with no resistance subjecting the life sustenance

power in suspension of its examination. The sustencance strength

which provides strength to all the life around starts wondering what

is the source of its own strength and sustenance. The new source of

the strength resounds the same wonder what could be the source of

strength. The sustenance strength keeps jumping from on fold to

another all around the universe that is within its control to seek

itself folding itself in infinitude lost in the vast presence. It

returns back in frustration not withstanding what the sustenance

strength could ever be.

 

Seeing the crest-fallen champions of life not realizing their own

true nature around, the throne of The God starts fading into

silence. The wisdom starts wondering in itself. Is it not the

driving force as well as the sustenance strength as well as the

absorption power all the time all around? Suddenly, the demarkation

between the three divinities that was once so thick and opaque

starts giving away to reveal the force, strength and power of

creation, sustenance and absorption in itself and hence in every

thing that is perceieved ever.

 

The realized wisdom gets back and declares. Never ever ignore your

fears. Never ever ignore your desires. Never ever ignore your

happiness. Ever be with your fears, desires and happiness as you

are. Then you see the unison amongst your fears, desires and joys

and hence in all your emotions, relations and existence within as

well as around. Then you see all the boundaries separating your

notions dissolve in the very wisdom where you dwell upon. Being what

you are in spite of your apparent variances of life naturally

transcends all the barriers built by your cognition across

everything to reveal THE ONE everywhere and everywhence. Then the

very post of God does not appear to be real anymore which seemed the

most troublesome question to start with.

 

God remains evasive till you drift away from what you are in vain

searching whatever IT could be! Therefore, my dear friend, better

pause in your frenzy search and look around and look within … be

what you are. Then God is everything … not just a notion ... not

just a faith ... not just a doubt ... but, everything ... EVERYTHING

WITH NO EXCEPTION. If you remain what you are, IT is all-inclusive.

If you attempt to search for it, IT becomes all-exclusive. In other

words, IT is EVERYTHING in your presence; and IT is NOTHING in your

perception.

 

Respects.

 

Naga Narayana

--------------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

Let us address one aspect of Tabalchiji's issues with responses of

sadhakas received so far!

To be able to see God, one needs to recognize God upon seeing

anything, right? If one says I don't see God, one is looking for what

one " thinks " God is in whatever one is looking at. For God to be

" that " it will be very very limiting to God, because what we think is

so limited even if it is some grand image of God. That is not

logical, right?

Now when Swamiji says Goenkaji and Poddarji had darshana of God, what

does it mean?

It means the deep understanding of what God is and subsequent

realization that " my God, there is nothing else but only God IS in

the disguise of the Cosmos " that sees through that individual.

The individual's vision has changed entirely, where he/she saw

objects of the world before, now he sees only Divinity in the same

forms. It is our experience that what we believe out there, we tend

to see only that through our being closed minded. Similarly when we

understand God, this " Understanding " opens up the very mind who sees

God everywhere, individual is merely a channel God is using.

Other aspects of issues will see later....

Namaskar............Pratap Bhatt

 

------------------------

-Shree Hari-

 

Sarphodji,

 

Great! You are still questioning brilliant!

I have read the responses from our brethren, great beauty full of

divine love. But I will stick to the hared nosed roll,(look past it

dear friend).

If someone asked me to show her an oak tree, and I gave her an acorn,

what would she say I wonder? Of course the blueprint for the whole

tree is in the acorn, one also one wonders, did the first oak tree

have an acorn or the first acorn have an oak tree?

Question 6 if resolved is the platform upon which all the other

question can be answered it seems to me.

I can only tell you how I came to be touched be The Divine, that was

by my search into paradoxes, like the universe, like the acorn.

I once mentioned a man I met in unusual circumstance. It was about

3am

in a large air traffic control room, very few controllers in the room

at that time. I was waiting to get clearance to work on a console(to

do annual technical checks). There across the room was this

controller, He had his headset on,(with a long lead), he was

performing asanas, (within the restriction), " trying to stay awake? "

I

asked, " no he boomed " , we started to talk. We had 'Much' in common,

we

developed a dialog from then on , it was he who suggested I read

Bhagavad Gita,(I humbly suggest you do also).

He once said to me with his booming humorous voice, " Mike if people

could her us they would think we're 'Lunatics'.

What we had in common at the root, was our hunger for the truth, and

the courage, 'to ride the tiger " .

We were an unlikely pair from a world view, he was a Sri Lankan, me

an

Anglo Celt, especially if one could here us talking, but we were

brothers of the spirit.

There is much I could talk of, but I must bow to the respected

moderator.

 

With Respect and Divine Love,

 

Mike Keenor

-

Mr Sarphod ! So you are a male as well as married ! Very good Jee !

 

It is a good habit to act in accordance with advice your Begum. How

did she leave you alone? Do you have books of Swamiji Ramsukhdasji

Maharaj at your home? Your “Begum†had those books according to

you.

Did you read them? Or your Begum only reads them? By the way did

you ever think about or did you ever have a desire to smell “

flower

of sky†? Why did you not think about flower of sky or desired to

smell it ? Reply. This is a question to you. Also reply if you always

believe only after “seeing†?

 

Let us know as to how you can get satisfied according to you?. What

methodology suits your mind.? How do you generally feel regarding

this world,mind, intellect, body etc etc ? How according to you such

a

big world is operating ? Do you think there are some laws governing

this world? Keep also giving your observations , counter arguments on

EACH AND EVERY response which is given to you. Otherwise how will we

know whether the cure has taken place? Understood? You can consult

your Begum also before replying to my queries. Always tell us what

your Begum told you and what is your own observation. Why don’t you

tell your Begum also to become member and start Satsanga? Will that

not be better? What is her kind name, Jee?

 

Namaste Jee.

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

 

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

Another aspect of issues raised by Tabalchiji can be answered based

on

what sadhakas already have echoed in their responses.

The most important thing is to know that God is not " something " ,

" somewhere " and " some times " . It is at the core of our being, an

intimate experience which is The Knowingness without anything known.

In otherwords, God cannot be known as another limited object,

nevertheless, is known as " knowingness " in us by virtue of just

being.

For example, if someone were to ask you, can you show me Love, Peace,

Compassion, Beauty, Goodness etc " out there " ? You cann't! They are

experiences within us that we attribute to things/situations etc

outside which may have triggered them. Some philosopher rightly said

" From the beginning, not a thing is! " Please, please, see the truth

of

this. We are connected to the world only through Being Conscious of

something or other which we conceptualize as subject

experiencer(mind-body), and objects experienced, both thought as

separate. Such division is not experiential.

Just as these experiences are not seen " out there " , but are truely

happening in our consciousness, God cannot be seen, as separate from

Consciousness.

Sun, for example, is nothing but the experience of light and heat,

conceptualized as " Sun " out there, for practical purpose. This is

also

true for all apparant objects of the world.

God or Consciousness or Atman, are also such conceptual words of the

most intimate Wordless Experience! They are good pointers though!

When people engage in services to help others who are victims of

disasters, diseases, violence, wars, terrorism etc etc who motivates

their actions? Unconditional Love and Goodness of the heart! People

who help to preserve natural environment, forests, animals, etc etc

are also inspired by the same Love and Goodness!

Can we not call Unconditional Love and Goodness of the heart God?

Are those who bring such disasters to " apparant others " also God, if

all is God?

They are also, yes, but unfortunately " they " have not understood yet

that they are!

In God's world, only God exists playing " others " , so who does what to

whom?

Try doing evil acts after understanding deep within that all of us,

nature included, together, not individually, are God! One cannot!

 

Namaskar...........Pratap Bhatt

 

 

-

PRIOR POSITING

Dear Sadhak,

Excellent explanation has been given by sadhak Pratapji....Excellent!

If the parents donot know GOD how can they teach the kids?

Swamiji says if something is lying in darkness we can take a deepak

with us to see it but to see a deepak(lamp) we donot need another

deepak. Same way the objects of this whole worlds can be

seen/experienced through the " SELF " but to know this SELF we donot

need anything from the world( mind/body/intellect etc.) Only SELF

knows it SELF.

1. Where is God I have never seen Him?

He is not HE, He is " I " . When we can see/know who am I we can

see/know who is God.

Indeed, You alone know Yourself by Your own potencies, O origin of

all, Lord of all beings, God of gods, O Supreme Person, Lord of the

universe! Ch10:15

2. Who has seen Him?

All realized people have known HIM.Some claim that they have seen

HIM too.

Swami Vivekananda asked this question to everyone he met-Have you

seen God ? All answers negative except Ramkrishna Paramhansa.He said-

" Yes I have seen God as clearly as I am seeing you right now. "

Listening to this Narendra became his disciple.

3. How is He?

With a single fragment of Myself I pervade and support this entire

universe.Ch10:42

4. If I dont know how do I accept?

Then go ahead follow the path shown to us by Swamiji or any realized

soul, and know Him first, then accept.

5. God is a term coined by elders to put moral shackles over us so

that we may indulge in goodness.

What's wrong with that ? Accept God ,be righteous and be Arjuna or

donot accept Him, be Duryodhana - choice is yours.

6. There has to be some basis for his existence? What are the logics

which point towards the existence of God? From where to pick the

thread?

Start with meditation and Gita. Follow the path shown by Him in Gita-

Karma Yoga, Gyaan Yoga or Bhakti Yoga. Establish yr self in YOGA.....

 

No one can force any one to believe. Kids learn by imitation. Lead

yr own life according to Dharma,and kids will pick it up.Before

giving them tatva Gyaan(absolute knowledge),its better to sit with

them and watch Ramayana, Krishna, Mahabharata and let them learn by

the character of our Sagun Sakaar Bhagwaan(God with Forms). If they

can learn from Rama or Krishna, they will be on right path and will

get their realization at their own speed.

with lots of Love,

a sadhika

Sadhna Karigar

 

--------------------------------

Jai Hanuman

 

Oye What a question Jee!!. As good as the name of the

questioner!! " Sarphod " in Hindi means skull breaker ! " Tablachi "

means he who plays treble. Unique Jee !! Namaste Sarphodji !!

Welcome Jee ! There is music everywhere ! Who kept such a classic

name Jee ? Father? OK, pick the thread from father only.

 

How do I accept if I don't know? Accept just as you accepted some

one to be your father without knowing anything about him. Don't say

please- " that children now a days need more than belief to accept " .

That, I am afraid, is not as classic a statement as is even your

kind name. Fact is that children practice only belief and solid

belief. They are masters of belief - and teachers of entire humanity

on this subject of belief. Poor adults need proof. What kind of

proof was solicited by you in accepting some one to be your father

or some name to be mine or for that purpose by " the children of now

a days " - say son of Sarphod Tablachi, if any ??

 

Do you " know " as to who is your father and who is your mother? What

proof or rationale you can give to support your acceptance of Mr X

as your father?

 

You asked " from where to pick the thread " . I reply to you that you

pick the thread from yourself and your Dear Father. Come On !

 

Reply now! Argue !!

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

-------------------------------

Mr.Pratapji Bhatt has explained the existance of God beautifully.It

is very much in sync with Sri Sri Paramhansa Yogananda's explanation

in his books- " Autobiography of a yogi " and " Man's eternal quest "

which i have read. Also the story quoted by mahalaksmiji perfectly

describes how to know God.He is all knowing and yet unknown.He is

the Devine Intelligence that governs all that is known to us.God is

indescribebable.He can only be felt in the depths of a pure soul.

Ami Chhowala

 

--------------------------------

I still remain unsatisfied in this " divine " forum. How and why

Paramatma can not be an individual ? Is there nothing in your

scriptures like Gita which says that a devotee can also " see " God ?

My Begum Sahiba states that she read from a book of your Swami

Ramsukhdasji that Jai Dayal Goenka and Hanuman Poddar

had " darshanas " of God. Was His statement right or your reference

of good Swami is right? Why do you say that God can not be known?

How then the desire to know can be fulfilled? Whether I need an

instruction manual or not is not the focal point, in fact, to be

fair to me, answer to my questions in simple and convincing manner

is focal point! None of the " sadhaks " are convincing so far. I

asked from where to pick the thread? The responses are unclear and

incomplete.

 

Mr Mike ! Incomplete, was your answer. If you believe you were like

me in the past, then make me like you in the present. Is that not a

divine task? Is that not the role of this forum? Logic must exist.

Pointers must be there. Knowledge cant be beyond itself. What else

we are doing at present except meeting?

 

Mr Vyas - When Your so called " Nature " made oceans, Sun Moon etc

and when Nature is supreme then where is the question of God? Why

cant Fire/ Ocean/etc are called God ? If yes, then how God is

beyond knowledge? How God can not be seen as stated by Mr Pratap

Bhatt or by Vineet Sarvottam ?

 

" Sadhaks " - My Begum Sahibaa directed me to you people to satisfy

my knowledge quest ! I expected better as I am hungry for answers.

 

Sarphod Tabalchi

--------------------------------

Such a question can only arise from those who consider gross body as

real self and not the outer sheath of immortal " real self " which

contains the apriori knowledge.

 

They see God every day but do not recognise THEE. The Universal God

is Tri-Ani-Pada- three bodies in One i.e. gross, subtle and divine.

Since the entire Brahamad is God, His gross body consists of " Sun

and Moon His eyes, firmament his middle body and earth as His Feet "

and His Head is in Heaven. Thus entire Brahmand is God. Most of the

people who find gross body as real, want to imagine and visulaise

God as a human being forgetting that human beings who live on this

earth are " Thy " tiny living cells. We have several billions living

cells in our gross body, can any living cell of our body tell who we

are?

 

But those who find human soul as " real self " have no difficulty in

knowing God. His divine body is the Omniscient Supreme Soul

(Parmatma) and His subtle body " Mahadeva " is omnipotent Supreme

Spirit prevalent in all animate and inanimate life/things. His

spirit is found in Shuniya (cosmic void) of all kind of matter

consisting of atoms with unsuspected vitality. Because of His spirit

prevalent in shuniya, matter is not inert.

 

Since Man is born in the image of God, human beings are also tri-ani-

pada. Immortal soul resides in our divine body, spirit resides in

our subtle body and gross instruments in our material body. Those

who consider material gross body as the real self will always find

difficult to know formless and ineffable universal God.

 

Incidentally formeless and ineffable Universal God is Brahma- name

derived from Brahmand and other gods in human form are Iswaras.

Iswaras are not the gods of entire mankind.

with regards,

Prem Sabhlok

 

 

--------------------------------

Dear sarphod,

 

God is in nature,he can only be felt.His power is dwelling

everywhere in the nature in the form of cosmic vibratioins .If we

can tune our mind with the same frequency by way of sadhana we can

feel the godliness of the nature.How a sperm can create a body with

life is the proof of the supernatural power of the god. So far we

are only establishing the things which are existing, but we are

unable to establish about the source of the existence.

Our ultimate goal our of life is to reuntite ourselves with the

nature from where we have come.Nothing extra to be thought about

god. Living close to the nature is living near god. But the senses

attached to our body always act against our realisation

process.controling the senses is the biggest challenge of our life.

Let us teach our children about righteous way of living ,think

naturally and live naturally.

 

with regards

Ramana kothuri

 

-------------------------------

--------------------------------

The questions of Mr Sarphod Tabalchi are basic questions. I too

dont believe that the Supreme Power would not leave any pointers or

logics of His existence. From where to pick the thread ? I dont

agree with Mr Sarvottam that God can not be seen by His beloved

ones.. There has to be nothing which is beyond the powers of

Supreme. One principle came from Mike's narration and Mr Vyas'

message that before " big bang " too something existed or that if

there is creation then there must be a creator. But how that is

exclusive prorogative of God only ? Creativity is universal symptom

and authority. Spiders are also creators as per Mike Keenor. Please

elaborate with reference to Sarphod's questions. What about five

elements? Are they creators? Are not these elements playing the

transformation game? I think more serious and direct discussions are

warranted on the subject, not just belief stricken answers. First

the logics/rationales have to be exhausted.

 

Luca Brasi

----------------------------

 

Jai Kali Mata

 

What is meant by " No one knows about time!!! " Also, I am unclear as

to how this is relevant to the questions asked? Is this idea about

time, emanated out of teachings of Shraddheya Swamiji referred by

him? Kindly clarify !

 

Bandook Singh

 

--------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

 

RESUBMITTED WITH SOME CORRECTIONS

 

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

You have asked -

 

1) Where is God, I have never seen Him?

Answer: Paramatma is not an individual that you or any one can

simply see. Existence - IS-ness (sattaa maatre) has been given the

name Paramatma. Otherwise there is no name for that Existence or all

Names are only Paramatma's (Supreme Consciousness's) Names.

 

2) Who has seen Him?

Answer: Paramatma has not been seen by anyone to date and in future

too Paramatma will not be ever seen. Shraddhey Swamiji has stated

that Paramatma can be believed, not known, nor seen. Beyond this

whatever anyone says, is questionable.

 

3) How is He?

Answer: How, where, when, what, why, such questions regarding

Parmatma are pointless. That which cannot be known, it cannot be

described at all.

 

4) What are you able to know " Time " (samay). This question has been

asked regarding time (whose beginning and end is unknown to us). It

is not a question about the watch or the interval. It is not only

you, but no one understands anything about " time " . They can say

nothing about time. Then why do you believe in time? Similarly

believe and accept Paramatma, it will be nothing but gain.

 

5) This same work is also performed by men through establishment of

laws. Just as all do not believe in the law, similarly, everyone

continues to speak and share for correcting one's foolishness, and

according to one's own convenience and conformance giving that

tattva a " form " . You too can speak about the same as well.

 

6) 'Existence' itself is 'Paramaatmaa'. Where can any supportive

arguments and evidence exist to establish the existence

of 'Existence' (named Paramaatmaa)? Then where is one to get the

support of this essential elemental belief 'ASTITTVA'? Reasoning-

deliberation-discussion (tark), proof-evidence (pramaan) can be of

that thing which we know. But Paramatma is not known and cannot ever

be known, then this reasoning and seeking evidence is not in

conformance to that reasoning.

 

7) Do you want Paramatma? or do you want an instruction manual or

an aphorism (sutra) to grab hold of Paramatma? Don't get caught up

in the vicious cycle of trying to find an instruction manual.

Leaving the search, become engaged in " Chup Saadhan " (Effortless

Awareness, Discipline of Silence). All quest, and inquiry will be

quietened, will become still.

 

Please kindly forgive any limitations in the expression / words

used.

 

Vineet Sarvottam

--------------------------

 

Hari Om

 

How to know what is beyond knowledge - is the moot question.

 

Logic/Rationale !! Proof !!! Sample !! Consider the following:

 

1 .Whatever we are able to see on this earth there is always a

creator /manufacturer - be it an allpin, pen, table, house, machine,

house, bed, watch, pen, paper, cloth or aircraft. Anything visible.

Then there should be creator of oceans, fire, air, mountains, earth,

Sun. Moon, stars also !

 

God is the creator of all. - CREATOR

 

2. Whatever thing which moves , be it car, aircraft, bicycle,

machine, computer, - there is always a controller thereof. Earth

also moves. Sun/Moon also move. Oceans remain in their limits. Sun

rises and sets perfectly without fail. There must be a controller of

them also!

 

God is the controller of all- CONTROLLER

 

Q BUT A HUMAN BEING ALSO CREATES ! WHAT IS SO IMPORTANT ABOUT IT ?

 

Ans A human being cannot " create " anything! It is only " nature "

which creates! You can only change the shape thereof. You can covert

gold into ornaments or iron into sword or utensil, but you can't

create gold or iron ! Only nature provides that. You can mix two or

more elements, formulate, change shape only. You can create . You

can " discover " only.

 

To be continued.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

-------------------------

Kindly read bertrand russel

Aranha Roy

 

---------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

Let us continue further on the subject and build on what sadhakas

have said.

Please, it may sound too intellectual, but it is not! It may humble

us!

Consider this: If we need to know/study any object, the object has

to exist in

the first place.

Even if we cannot know the object, we always know it exists. This

knowing of an

existence is prior to the knowledge of its nature, attributes,

function etc.

The Universe is a collection of objects, and can be said to be one

Existence

fundamentally. Individual objects within it are individual

existences localized

in space and time over which they exist, and change to other forms,

continuing

the existences.

When we say Universe we mean the Existence only. Even the word

Universe points

to the Existence first. How do we know such Existence itself? Only

by being

aware/cognizant of it, no other way. So the Existence is awareness

of Existence.

To see what is prior to such Existence, there has to be Awareness to

know

whether or not such Existence IS. Thus Awareness as Existence has to

be

beginningless! What is after the Existence, non-existence? no,

because to say

it, there has to be Awareness of non-existence. If there is

Awareness of

non-existence, IS-ness is established. Thus that which IS, the

Existence(without

division into many objects), is eternally free of time and space

containing all

objects(names/forms) in time and space by creating mind and endowing

it with

this ability in terms of thoughts/feelings. Gita in 2:16 says the

real never

ceases to be.

Such Awareful Existence has to be most Powerful, Intelligent,

Beautiful, full of

Love and Blissful which is our experience. Can we not call this God?

God means Such Intelligence as seen through those who serve, and love

unconditionally, those who fight for Dharma, the righteousness, and

those who

preach God's message!

Evil actions come out from not realizing the Truth of Eternal

Oneness, GOD!

Namaskar.............Pratap Bhatt

 

 

 

----------------------------

My answer is simply to a question which has been indirectly

asked: " Why can't I see Him? "

Because He is the Seer. You are what you are looking for. It is

subjective awareness.

The problem lies with the word 'God' because we then suppose a

distinct being like a tribal deity. No, it is Awareness, Supernal-

consciousness. This is the Vedantic way. Find out who you really

are, not how others see you, but from your subjective perspective,

and you'll find what you're looking for.

Rishi Handa

 

----------------------------

Wonderful expression by Pratap (Bhatt) Bhai

 

Further, a simple but serious exercise could help in understanding

this.....

Sarphodji, ask yourself " who is asking these questions? "

" Who wants to know God? " ....and wait for the answer....

see what comes from deep inside.....

 

but you have to have patience.....and keep asking/repeating the

questions....

In fact when you come across any such question, ask yourself

who is this who wants to know this, who is asking the question?....

 

and wait for the answers and experience that follows.......

Best wishes

Sushil Jain

 

--------------------------------

I am a believer of God. Like one person said in the e-mail below, I

went through that 'show me God to believe' stage when I was around

22 years - 26 years. I was God lover before and again lover now. I

do not really know and I do not think with my limited ablity I can

ever know. At the same time I am not blind follower too. I am open

to all these 6 questions coming from a logical person because I had

them before too and have them now too. Before - with doubt, now -

with wonder and amazement.

 

Knowing God is a long journey. I am on the journey, I beleive I am

gradually understanding the divine concept. I am understanding them

through others, specially our ancestors, Indian scriptures. There

are great concepts, ideas and explanations, there are trash also

amongst them. I am amazed at the power of those ideas and

explanations. They attempted volumes and spent 100s of years to find

God and explain the divinity. Can I really understand all this in my

life? I doubt, which is why its a journey for me. Can I see God? It

depends on. I feel divinity in some great people, in their ideas for

humanity - around me.

 

OK, when somebody asks the question 'show me God', what they are

asking us is 'show me Jesus, Show me Shiva or show me Vishnu'. I

doubt if any one has seen God in these forms. Unless the divine

power appears so for any. As for God in its full form - Can I

imagine the distance between the Earth and the nearest star (Alpha

Centauri - about 4 light years away). I cannot imagine that

distance - however logically I think. Can I see God then - which is

full of this universe? Impossible to imagine. Then how can I see

God, unless God willingly appears to me.

 

My dear friend, answers to those 6 questions need volumes of

explanation or simply experiecing of the divine power - depending on

where you stand on the quest for God. Its a journey, so please

discuss with people who have done the research (of your 6 questions

before) and experience the facts yourself. You still go through the

oscillations of belief and disbeliefs, but if your quest is sincere

you will start seeing light at the end of tunnel.

 

The above does not give straight answers to even one of your

questions. So thanks for your time, if at all you read through this

until now.

 

Venu Gopal

--------------------------------

 

 

PRIOR POSTING

I will come at these questions in a hard nosed manner, maybe I am

blessed as I too waved aside religions when younger but traveled full

circle to The Beloved, who I dearly love with my absolute being.

 

Question 6: There has to be some basis for his existence? What are

the logics which point towards the existence of God? From where to

pick the thread?

O.K. I would ask the skeptical young, (I will call him S. ), tell me

S. how did this Godless Universe begin? He may be a brilliant

physicist, good chance though, regardless S will start to talk about

the 'big bang', the question would then be, o.k. S. was there

substance, was there energy, and was there time, before the 'Event'?

I would ask S. also when this energy of the bang runs out what

then?, I would press the point home that the Great Indians

Traditions had a good explanation for all this many millennium

before the present time, and is probably a good guide for the

scientists. Oh! I would ask my young friend S. where did the laws of

physics come from? Apparently they are unique, the laws had to be

spot on for there to be an existance, that is what the physicist

seem to be saying.

 

I would ask S. one other thing, how is it possible for a spider to

build the perfect web according to its kind, without actually being

taught.

 

I would say to S., think about it, think about it, be tenacious, be

mercilessness, and be brave, let your desire for the truth take you

where it will, just hang in there! S. my friend I was once like you,

maybe one day we can really talk.

 

With Respect and Divine Love,

 

Mike Keenor

------------------------

 

Dear Sadak,

 

1. Where is God I have never seen Him?EXAMPLES Most children know

water is H2O (Hydrogen 2 parts and Oxygen 1 part) ask them them to

show hydrogen and oxygen showing water. Next show them Yogurt (Curd)

and ask them to show milk. Bigger children ask them to show planets.

Then tell then from Sanskrit slokas-- " God is apprameyam " that which

cannot be seen or known by senses as in case of above examples, as

God can be only known by Gyana (knowledge)

2. Who has seen Him? Like in case of scientist tell as per above

examples, so does Saints tell. Only a saint (Guru) can show God as

shown to Vivekananda by Swamy Ramakrishna

3. How is He? Slokas say: Aroopamai, Aksharamai. Roopam, Akandamai,

Viratroopamai Etc. No definite shape as HE appears in the form that

the devotee wants. HE is in sounds - Om, HE is like Sri Krishna/Sri

Rama Etc, Omnipresent (That cosmic energy filled in everything), HE

is in all shapes and forms.

4. If I dont know how do I accept? Contemplate. If you accept that

there is Galaxies then contemplate what energy is performing whole

universe, like in the case of any toy needs battery, car need petrol

or fuel, computer need electricity etc. Still do not want to accept-

Leave it.

 

Jai Sri Krishna

 

baiya sathyanarayan

-----------------------------

 

All questions arise out of answers. When one asks a question

either he needs a confirmation of the answer which he already has

or he is answering his own question. When somebody is asking a

question relating to God, first he has to explain what is in his

mind when he says or thinks of GOD.

 

Einstein said that the world is an optical illusion. We think and

feel that we are separated from the rest. This is an optical

illusion. We have no direct contact with the outside world. All

the sensorial data has to filter through our optical nerve and our

mind (delusion). So we have no idea of what is exactly out there.

When one realizes this he comes closer to God or some superior

knowledge.

 

To realise that we are the debris of God is the supreme

realisation.

 

The most mysterious thing holds the most important key. Death is

the most mysterious thing. Death holds the most important key.

 

When death happens. The soul/consciousness releases out of the

cage (body � which is always subjected to three dimensional view

and

linear concept of time and space), one will realize or merge with

God

 

H. Subair

 

 

------------------------------

dear pratapji,thank u for giving us such wonderful knowledge.person

like you are really god's gift to us.

bhargav mehta

------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Re: Does God (Paramatma) Exist? Where is the Proof? What

is the logic ?

 

Through that supreme devotion he comes to know Me in reality, what

and how great I am; and thereby knowing Me in essence he forthwith

enters into My being.

 

Gita - Chapter 18 Sloka : 55

 

Sundara Raghavendran

---------------------------

 

Deaar Sadhakas, Namaste!

When someone says " where is God? I have never seen Him " , that person

has to know what God is that he expect to see, otherwise he cannot

ask the question. The question comes from the implicit assumption

that God is some imagination, ideas, knowledge, belief, etc. in the

mind and what I see out there is definitely not " God " .

So it is better to rephrase the question back to What God is first.

When that is understood, all questions by Tabalchiji will get

answered.

Consider the following dialogue:

Q: Do you have a doubt about your own existence?

A: No, I know I exist beyond a shadow of doubt. It is so obvious to

me!

Q: How do you know you exist?

A: I don't know HOW, but I am sure I DO!

Q: Do you need any help of another person, scripture, or some

logical explanation to confirm you do exist?

A: Definitely not, even if they say I don't exist, I know I do,

because it is experiential within me now. I don't even need any

sense organs-mind-intellect to tell me I exist!

 

So, it is self-evident existence, of " beingness " we all feel within

us, and by which we know what is knowable in this world as objects

of knowledge. This experience of Being Conscious is always with us,

never are we away from IT, not even in our sleep when body-mind-

world are all gone no one knows where! But I am always!

I just have to find out that ultimately this " I " is Impersonal and

is of the nature of Existence-Consciousness which we call God!

Personal God of Bhakta appears in this Impersonal!

Based on this, I can conclude that God is not a particular object

among many objects we know through sense organs, mind and intellect.

It is THE UNIQUE and objectless EXPERIENCE!

It is like our eyes who cannot see themselves and yet know their

existence beyond any shadow of doubt because SEEING takes place

automatically by just Being.

Once it is grasped, it can lead to God Realization!

Namaskar...

 

Pratap Bhatt

 

-------------------------------

 

My dear Sarphod,

There is a very beautiful story from ancient times that I have

heard from my guru. Once, a king called his minister and said, " I

want you to answer two questions.....otherwise your position will be

at stake.....first, can you show me God. Secondly, what is God

doing right now?

The minister was in anxiety. He went home, began searching

through various scriptures....wondering if he would have a job the

next day. His small son approached him, and noticing his father's

perplexity, inquired, " What troubles you, father? " The father

responded, " Oh, this is not something you would understand. " At

the child's persistence, the father finally explained. The small

child smiled, and simply said, " Father, that is so easy to

answer.....just tell the king that even a small child can answer

these inquiries, and I will then give him my responses " .

The father had no choice, as he didn't know the way to

respond. So, when the child came before the king, he requested the

king, " First, please have a pot of milk brought forth. " The king did

so. Then the child inquired, " Is there ghee in this milk? " The

king said, " Yes, it is there. " Then the child explained, " It is

there, but you cannot see it. Why can you not see the ghee? " The

king said, " There is a process by which the ghee will be brought

forth, of course, first one must churn the milk into butter, then

the butter is slowly heated until the ghee rises to the

surface......only after one patiently follows this process will he

see the ghee. " As the king was speaking, slowly realization came

into his heart, that similarly, one cannot demand to see God at this

moment....there is a process. One who's heart is not pure, who

does not have love and devotion, cannot see the Lord, but He will

certainly reveal Himself to those who are willing to accept the

process of " bringing forth the ghee " .

The child then said, " You are asking me what God is doing.

That is putting me in the postion of teacher, and you as disciple.

So, is it appropriate for you to be sitting on your throne, if you

are learning from me? " The wise King immediately pleced the child

on the throne, and sat in front of him, ready to try to understand

his next lesson. " This is what God is doing " ....he said. " He is

taking someone from a low position and putting him into a high

position, according to the results of his work, and taking someone

else from a high position and putting him into a low position. "

The king was very pleased with the child's answers, and rewarded him

and his father.

So, one may say, " I don't accept such simplistic

responses " .....well, then, such a person will never see the Lord,

unless and until he is fortunate enough to get the association of a

sadhu, by whose association one's heart melts. When one truly

comes into contact and develops some sukrti by contact with a God

consscious person, there is no material, anaytical way to explain

what happens. It is beyond our mundane intelligence, our ability to

analyze. So, simply pray for the youth you are hoping to guide,

and gradually perhaps the mercy of the sadhus will come to them.

It is not a mechanical process.

I hope my words have been gentle, encouraging, and helpful.....it

is truly a sadness which we all share as parents if our children

become somewhat agnostic or doubtful of the underestanding of the

Lord's presence, and the need for ancient, eternal tradition. We

can only pray to be the best examples of loving, patient friends for

them that we can possibly be.

 

respectfully,

Mahalaksmi Dasi

 

-------------------------------

Sarphod,

 

Read Paramahansa Yogananda's book " the Autoibgraphy of a Yogi "

published by Self Realization Fellowship, Los Angeles, CA.

 

Haley H. Haynes

--------------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

In this posting I would like to build on my previous post.

We as parents must deeply understand the truth of who we are, what

is the nature of world and God first. Then only we can explain to

our children. I would shy away to tell children that because it is

said in our scriptures, you have to believe in God being such and

such.

 

We can begin on the path of knowledge with the premise. That which

always IS irrespective of time, location or cause, is Truth. Truth,

thus, cannot be denied and has to be our continuous experience

always, not some states we experience that come and go, rather That

in which all states of experiences happen.

 

In the beginning it may sound like intellectual, but understanding

of that which always IS, has to be our real nature, or Reality of

whatever we all seem to experience dawns on us sooner rather than

later. What is Reality, then?

If we continue to inquire, we may find that whether I am in joyful,

or painful or sad or indifference or even in depressed

situations, " I am " always present and " knowingness " of these various

situations I am in is also always present too, which I never notice

due to my attachments/aversions to situations. These situations

eventually disappear but not " I " .

What is the nature of this I that we all say I when referring to

ourselves? Whatever it is, for sure it IS! This ISNESS-I is the most

certain experience and is Truth. Even if I see illusion, I or seeing

is the truth. This seeing then is communicated as I see an object(or

hear, taste, smell, touch, think, feel etc). I and seeing is

synanymous as consciousness.

 

Now extend this to outer world. Regardless of objects we perceive

out there, Being Conscious of them is the only truth of our

experience. Thus, alleged external world is nothing but ONE

Undivided/Whole Existence/Consciousness(Absolute) in our experience.

Mind is given to us to divide the Existence into different objects

for practical and Divine play. When we come to this understanding,

our attitude towards world changes to one of dispassion, devotion

and to serve it as God, in whatever ways we can. We see God

everywhere our eyes fall upon!

This is God relization.

Namaskar.............Pratap Bhatt

 

GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES:

1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify their doubts

related to Gitaji shlokas. Therefore, responses which further

clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be posted.

2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to

substantiate your response.

3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the

extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas

4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting

sadhaka's time.

5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only.

6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other

organizations.

7. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone

number, address etc.

8. Please do not address the response to a particular individual

since the message is going to the entire group.

9. Due to the large readership, all responses may not be posted.

10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if content

is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the group.

11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth,

westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use to Sanskrit

words only, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit bracketed

wherever possible.

 

MODERATOR

Ram Ram

------------------------

 

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Posted
Posted

My question is that how to prove that there exists a super natural

power called " God " ? At least how to explain that. How to correlate

His existence with the character of the world? Children now a days

need more than belief to accept. Can there be any way vide which we

can establish that God exists. If some body says say :

1. Where is God I have never seen Him?

2. Who has seen Him?

3. How is He?

4. If I dont know how do I accept?

5. God is a term coined by elders to put moral shackles over us so

that we may indulge in goodness.

6. There has to be some basis for his existence? What are the logics

which point towards the existence of God? From where to pick the

thread?

 

Sarphod Tabalchi

 

 

NEW POSTING

 

-Shree Hari-

 

Sarphodji,

 

You know; the world as you see it, is a shadow of what it really is,

I once heard it described as seeing the reflections of reality on the

back of a cave wall, one has to turn around to see the glory of what

it is.

Most people it seems, focus their whole lives looking at the false

reality reflected on the wall of the cave.

Have we not all read about Yogis with extraordinary abilities? Is

this all lies, do such souls look on the doubters such as yourself,

say nothing, smile or laugh as Lord Krishna laughed, they have

nothing to prove , all the doubters have to do is turn around as it

were, to understand.

 

One great soul that I admire was Swami Vivekananda, to me he seems to

be a man ahead of his time, a person of great intellect, and a

spiritual giant. It was he that aroused the world to the wealth that

India had to give.

 

11th September, 1893: 'Response to welcome' address:

 

" Swami Vivekananda addressed the august assembly of seven thousand

people starting with the words: " Sisters and Brothers of America... " ,

and the whole of audience went into inexplicable rapture with

standing

ovation and clapping that lasted for more than three minutes....... "

 

If you consider you have a mind of sound reasoning, then maybe you

could read the yoga aphorisms, translated by that great Swami. (If

you require any translation).

 

Why does your Lady weep, is it because she sees the anguish of your

soul. No matter what you may say or truly think, you are in conflict,

do you understand ? Jee Jee Shashikalaji has hinted at it, other

Sadhaks have made the point also, things like why ask about that

which

does not exist etc.

Sadhaks have implied that they have been through that battle. I

have,

I will tell you this, how much you reach for Father, how much you cry

for him, the tears of anguish will then turn to tears of joy, when

your heart breaks loose from prison that binds it.

 

You may not understand what I am writing about, but one day you will.

 

With Respect and Divine Love,

 

Mike Keenor

-----------------------------

Dear Sadaks,

I have not seen God yet. That is the reason I am not silent. The one

who has seen God remains silent. Let us not make tell Mr.Sherphod

Vedanta/Upanashids.

1.Where is God I have never seen Him? To see a program on TV, one

needs TV Equipment, Power (electricity), and telecasting tower

2. Who has seen Him? One who has turned his body equipment as a

temple, Power of tuning (Craving to liberate) in mind, as mind has

electricity, magnatism, and telecasting tower (GOD) omnipresent.

Just one has to tune to HIS frequency that is surrender.

3. How is He? HE is benevolent to come in any form you meditate.

4. If I dont know how do I accept? Go on saying any name of HIS.

Eventually HE will tune to your frequency as HE did to Druva.

Jai Sri Krishna

baiya sathyanarayan

----------------------------

 

Dear Sirphod

 

I made a posting on your question. There was no attempt by me or for

that matter by any body (from the posts I see) who could give you

answers like you might be expected.

 

If you want to learn about God (accept or otherwise is a different

issue) you need to spend time and energy. You can select a Guru who

can help you. I do not see from your postings you have this

expectation, but the one below.

 

But if your goal is to dispute existence of God, there could be

anohter forum that must be working on such attempts.

 

By the way you can come out with your real name.

 

Venu Komanduri

 

 

PRIOR POSTING

 

Hi Sarphod Tabalchi,

1. Where is God I have never seen Him?

It seems you never tried to see God. Seeing God is not possible by

our physical eye. Those who have an insight of God only can see God.

If you try sincerely seeing God is would not be a problem. There are

many ways prescribed in our scriptures. First, Have faith in it.

Then after you never deny God.

2. Who has seen Him?

I see Him always and communicate with Him. Not only with God, I talk

to birds and animals. I can understand them and they understand me.

3. How is He?

He is always Happy. He never deny anything. He never denied my

existence. He wants everyone happy.

4. If I dont know how do I accept?

Dont reejct anything. Accept everything as it is. Never expect

anything in your way accept everything as it is. Keep God in your

mind if you dont know God. Chant Oh God Oh God Oh my God whenever

you want deny God.

5. God is a term coined by elders to put moral shackles over us so

that we may indulge in goodness.

If you know this much of God you should not deny God.

6. There has to be some basis for his existence? What are the logics

which point towards the existence of God? From where to pick the

thread?

First you ask your Parents who are patient to teach you the basic

concept of God existence. Once you have prerequesites to learn God

God comes to you automatically. Be Patient. Can you ever see the

electricity passing through a wire. A bulb is shining, Have you ever

enquired about the electricity which illumines the bulb? Think about

TV., Fridge, Air Conditioner etc., etc. whcih can not function

without electricity. Even you can not ask these questions without

that power unseen in you. My dear beleive in God is far easier than

denying God.

Lovingly, Krishna (Shobha) Das

 

------------------------

Wonderful testing of sadhaks by Tabalchi ji

We all must thank him for the excellent questions and for giving an

opportunity to better our understanding in the spiritual domain.

 

All questions have very easy answers. Excellent expression by all

sadhaks...in answering these.

 

But it is very difficult to satisfy the questioner on the answers.

since these very questions cloud everything....and become obstacles

to understanding the truth

since it is about knowing the questioner first............knowing or

seeing God comes much later.....

 

It has happened to perhaps all of us in the beginning and we may

have gone through this period.

But if we are able to contemplate on the questions with some

guidance, question begin to dissolve/disappear........and the

answers start looking meaningful........

 

So, Tabalchi ji and the begum sahiba could start with contemplating

exercise on the questions first

for example:

 

Q1 Where is God? ----contemplate on......where it should be? what

could be the place where it could be,

why it can not be hear with us?

Q2 Does God exist? ---- Contemplate on.....Who am I? ask yourself

repeatedly who am I?

Q3 Who has seen him is irrelevant? My seeing is important so

contemplate on questions - Why I don't see the God? Can I see it?

What could it look like? What should it be?

Q4 If I don't know how do I accept? Contemplate on What I don't

know? Do I know all? How can I know more?

Q5 Any other word other than God could be used for it. Contemplate

on: Is goodness gives happiness? Are moral values important? Why

we need to fear the word God to be good?

Q6 Contemplate on questions: What is basis of its existence? What

is the basis of our existence? What God must exist? Why prophets

have to come to this world? Who are these prophets?

 

See what comes as answers. It is a good learning

exercise......answers are within and we must practice to start

listening.....everyone has to do this for himself..............best

wishes......Thank you....

Sushil Jain

 

----------------------------

Dear Sarphod:

 

I have similar questions that you have.

 

Following is the status of those questions (mind you not answers):

 

1. Just beacuse I can not see GOD, that does not mean that there is

nothing like GOD which exists, since there are so many things that

exist and yet I can not see (ex: Air, Gases and so many unknowns to

mankind yet)

 

2. Same way as I have the question on the existence of GOD, I also

have the question on my question itself, i.e. I can not prove that

there is no GOD either.

 

3. Say suppose some one suddenly shows me the GOD, what are my tests

and verifications to accept him/her/it as GOD. Do I have all those

tools, a big NO (I am not sure about you)

 

4. Even if I have all those tools to test the existence of GOD and

all the tests are proved positive, then is it going to help me. That

means, do I have the right objective to find out this very unusual

thing called GOD? What is that single biggest thing that is

bothering me about finding out this GOD? Does it have the

seriousness to find out the GOD? If it does all the above questions

should be answerd positively. Or else, I am not sincere in my quest.

 

5. I might not have all these tools right now, yet I have the quest

to know about the existence of GOD, then I do not jump in to quick

conclusions like " There is no GOD, this forum is not DIVINE, etc., "

because that conclusion neither helps me nor taps in to the right

sources of knowledge. I will be just fooling myself saying " I asked

a question which this forum is not able to answer "

 

Just for the record, I remember in the whole known history of

mankind, only one person (Sri Ramakrishna Paramahansa) has admitted

to have seen GOD and was ready to show GOD to the one who was

earnestly with deepest intellectual anxiety and sincerity (Swami

Vivekananda).

 

The one who has shown and the one who was shown the GOD did not have

questions. The SOURCE and the SINK are in the perfect state of mind,

one to give and the other to receive. Am I in the equanimity levels

of Swami Vivekananda? I don't think I am and let me know if you are.

 

If you think you are, just stay there with sincere hope, A

RAMAKRISHNA will happen to you and your intellectual quest might be

fulfilled.

 

If not I need to get there before I start looking for GOD. Till such

time, GOD is tentative truth for me.

 

With a hope it might help you,

Sincerely,

Krishna (devangam krishnamurthy)

 

Hare Krishna

 

Sarphod, you have praised me by saying " I am very good " . FYI! I was

not entertaining you but I was questioning YOUR very existence. You

don't have any doubt in your existence still you cannot prove it.

Why so?? Have you thought over it?? If you can prove it (with your

logic/rationale) then why don't you do it?

 

Mikeji called you brilliant (I wonder why) but he has also called

you inflexible. But I think you have not noted that. He, Vyasji,

Pratapji and others have also given many points. You should think

over it, compare it with your logic and then prove it wrong. But for

this one need guts, because you will have to keep aside your

prejudices to think over others' points. Even if you are not able to

prove us wrong it does not mean that we can make you accept God, we

can only give logics/rationale.

 

No one can force anyone to accept God, especially those who do not

respect their father. If you cannot respect your father than how can

you accept and respect the biggest father (Param-Pita

Parmeshwar).Your father has deserted you and your wife also seems to

be upset with your adamant attitude, but you still don't have any

shame in admitting it. Rather than introspecting over your attitude

you are defending it.

 

Pratapji has not passed any judgment; it is you who is passing

judgments. Mike is best, Varun is very good, Vyas NB is making me

think. If these are not judgements then what is it? Pratapji has

correctly pointed out that you are not reading posts with an open

mind.

 

You have posted these questions only because your wife has directed

you to this group. This is the biggest problem because you are not

interested in knowing or learning anything, you are only asking

these questions just for the sake of it, just for a mere formality.

 

Mrs. Sarphod, please don't insist your husband to post questions. He

is only wasting our time and also don't reveal him anything about

Gita, because if you do so you will unnecessarily incur sin (Gita

18.67)

 

You cannot see God or feel His presence but you definitely feel your

existence as " I AM " , right? Then why can't you prove it with your

logic. I have asked 3 questions w.r.t. your existence but did not

get any reply.

 

Hare Krishna

Varun P. Paprunia

---------------------

 

Jai Hanuman

 

Mr Sarphod ! So you do not think or talk or desire regarding "

flower of sky " - because it does not exist. You yourself said that.

You can think/desire/talk about only that thing which exists.

 

Now this is the biggest proof. You thought about God. You talked

about God. You desired to know about God. You raised questions in

this forum about God. How can you do that- if God does not exist?

 

If you can do that then why did you not talk about " flower of sky " ?

As a law you can desire about only that thing which exists.

 

Answer now! To the point only. ONLY to the point.

 

You said yourself that you would believe in your parents even if

they were dead immediately after your birth, because there is a

basis. The presence of yourself itself is an indicator of their

existence. True. Now go backwards. Presence of your parents means

your grand parents were there. Go backwards and keep going. In the

end you will find one male and one female. Who were their parents?

 

God is " Param Pita " - our eternal father.

 

Clear?

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

 

 

 

----------------------

Hari Om

 

You wanted as to what is sample of God. Answer as given by Varunji

is correct. You , yourself, are " sample " of God ! Because like God,

you are also permanent and faultless. Everybody " experiences " that -

I EXIST. ( You talked about experiencing- I am talking about

experience only) . Do you have any doubt Mr Sarphod that you are not

existing ? You never have any doubt on this. You never conduct any

test to determine whether you exist or not. You never

experience/feel that - I DID NOT EXIST. About past you may say

that " I don't know " , but you can't say " I didn't exist " ! How can

you say so?

 

Why can't you say? Because you have never perceived your " self " to

be non existing. Non existence of your " self " has never come into

your experience. Even in respect of the daily occuring of deep

sleep, your experience never suggests that at that time you were non

existent. But at the same time you experience directly the

absence of ego, intellect, mind and body etc., in the deep sleep.

 

So you exist.

So He exists.

 

Now you are constantly experiencing changes/temporariness in your

body. Who can experience that? Only that element (Self) which is

permanent and changeless and who is looking separately can

experience so..

 

So you are permanent. You are witness. You are changeless. You are

not body. You exist both with or without body. You exist.

 

Similarly God is also permanent. God is also witness. God is also

changeless. God exists both with or without body. God exists.

 

So you exist. At present you are existing Mr Sarphod Now in your

body. In which part of the body you are existing Mr Sarphod? In

which part of the body you are not existing Mr Sarphod? In fact you

are existing everywhere in the body.

 

God exists everywhere in the universe as you exist everywhere in

the body.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

------------------------------

By summery of GITA: " Tat Twam Asi " or 'That You Are'

This logic is explained by Many in different way, as Jesus : " Keep

your self as pure as a Temple, so that GOD can reside in you "

As the world today is more scientific, we require proof by our

Senses.

No machine can prove Logic.

By psychologist EEG machine shows that Yog has a point when we gain

energy from vast outer energy when we Join our inner energy during a

meditative state.

Todays scientific terms were not expressed before. So we can say

positive Energy in us and arround is GOD.

This GOD creates and increases, but the negative energy will grow

only to destroy and eliminate named 'devil' !

The different State of Mind or Self is depicted in the Epics of

Ramayana and Mahabharata by the characters playing in the theatre of

this World.

The Conditions of Heaven and Hell are also due to this state of self.

 

'Tat Twam Asi' in definition of GOD as 'Bramah-Vishnu-Maheshwar' is

also what we see in us.

Psychological mind as Male-Female has in us as a Child, Learning and

Creating with help of 'Sarswati-Bramah'. Then as we are in our

Youth, we Earn and Run our life with the help of 'Laxmi-Vishnu'. At

the end of life our Old age, Eliminate and Destroy many beliefs with

the help of 'Shakti-Shiv'. Thus we prepare our self for the next

birth. The Energy, called 'spirit' by many, is indistructible and

change form. We can ralise it and can even see as Vivekananda(non

believer of statue) was shown by Guru Ramakrishna(ardent idol

worshiper). The idol is the Mirror to see our self !

--

Regards

Swapan PURKAYASTHA

 

 

 

--------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

 

Dear Sarphod:

 

I adore your persistence to what you think is right - that is a good

quality to seek truth. At the same time, I am a bit disappointed in

its lopsidedness! It is not clear what you want, frankly.

 

I have two questions for you: Are you afraid of " God " ? Do you urge

for " God " ?

 

If " YES " to any of these questions, you have a problem. You can't

stick to your current logical conviction. It is obvious that your

current logical conviction irrespective of its self-proclaimed

excellence is JUST NOT DOING ITS JOB :(. Your logical provess can

claim accolades ONLY IF it removes your fears and quench your

desires.

If not removal, at least a nominal reduction in their intensity is

warranted ... if your intellect is working straight.

 

If " NO " to any of these questions, I see a bigger problem. Why are

you confusing yourself with these questions. That " NO " becomes

meaningless just because you are incapable of letting the very

questions go! The very reason you are raising these questions prove

that you are infested either by fear or by desire or by both

regarding " God " . THAT IS EXCELLENT!

 

Then, it is " YOUR " primary responsibility to address the same. As I

mentioned earlier, your current intellect is incapable of helping you

out. Then, you have to make a shift in your thinking to inspect the

ignorance harbored within. Pardon me for calling it ignorance. But,

the fact is ... it is. Inherent fears and desires can never let an

individual happy. They create the turbulence within in terms of

themselves. The existence of miseries is proof enough that we are not

applying our intellect in the right direction. After all, it is

common sense that we do everything ONLY FOR ONE REASON - to be

happy. I am sure you agree with it.

 

The question is are you happy with these questions as such or are you

really interested in a possible solution. If you are happy with these

questions, be happy. You can never get the solution though! If you

really need a solution, QUESTION the very questions. That is the only

way out left for you to be happy. Do you have any other choice? If

you have, please pursue. Being happy is the bottom line of all

actions ... being happy ... being happy but nothing else.

 

Nobody can instruct you what God Is! You have to figure it out

yourself.

 

I don't know who misled you that this or anything specific " is a

devine forum " as if anything else is not! If you seek divinity,

everything is devine. If not, some may claim " divinity " as if the

rest is not. Please do not get trapped into such notions ... if you

really want to seek clarity regarding your question. Question your

questions ... TRUTHFULLY. You will see the end of the tunnel.

 

Again, PLEASE DO NOT EXPECT OR INSIST FOR EXPLICIT INSTRUCTIONS

REGARDING GOD. YOU WILL NOT GET ANY ANSWER ... UNLESSS ... YOU SEE IT

WITHIN YOURSELF! The only suggestion I can make is ... look for IT

within. Because, looking out all these years has seemingly remained

futile! There is no point in digging into others' psyche when mine is

not receptive enough. If I insist to continue, I can guarantee myself

of more confusion to come!! Because ... GOD cannot be held within any

" psyche " as such.

 

Anyway, just few suggestions to think about ... think about it if you

want ... ONLY IF YOU WANT.

 

All The Best.

 

Respects.

 

Naga Narayana

 

 

 

 

PRIOR POSTING

Dear " Sadhaks " (?)

 

Why my simple questions are not getting answered. Shashikalajee

asked me some questions, instead of replying to me. I , upon the

advice of my Begum Saahiba humbly replied to her. Now instead of

responding to me, she has given a conversation between a son and his

mother. My Begum is insisting to me that I should again and again

read that. OK I will do that. But let me answer her another

question. I have not desired to smell " flower of sky " , because it

does not exist. Sometimes I feel that both my Begum Sahibaa and you

Sadhaks have lost mind. What a funny question Shashikalajee has

asked. How can I desire or talk or know about a thing which doesn " t

exist? This is my basic fundamental and solid argument. Vyas N B is

giving indicators which require me to think. I am thinking. But the

best among you is Mike Keenor. He told me to remain solid. He

adviced me to remain tenacious, merciless and hang on. I am hanging

on. But then why Vineet Sarvottam told me lies? Varun Paprunia gave

him a fitting reply. Varun - you are very good. This Pratap Bhatt

is rebuking me. Why? What is my fault. On one hand you are simply

giving me round round answers. On other hand you are passing

judgement. Is this a conduct of a sadhak. Please reply to me. Or

say - none of you have capacity to answer my simple questions. My

Begum Sahibaa has already started crying. Have mercy on her at

least. But Mike praised me. He called me " brilliant " .

 

Waiting for answers.

 

Sarphod Tabalchi

---------------------------

We all struggle with these questions. The answers I found logical is

this: There is something beyond mind and matter. Some will call that

something Omnipotent, Omniscient, Omnipresent. Others will call it

random nothing. Another question one hears is why do I want to know

That Something. To Know, or to Control it? Here in lies the paradox

and answer: If it is to know only: He is right there with you,

within you: The Life, Love Peace. If it is to control so that we

control our surrounding: That is the struggle of Ego. Arjuna had to

see the Universal form to get over the final hurdle.

Jay Shree Krishna.

 

Hemendra Parikh

-------------------------------

Dear devotees of Lord Krishna,

The discussion is interesting. I learned the gita much better after

seeing the life experience of a realized lady, who had darshan of

Lord Krishna ( first darshan of Lords feet after chanting a sloka

from 10 th chapter of Gita for 30,000 times continuously for 30

days ). Her conversations with the Lord have been recorded in

Tamil, and can be shared with the group if interested.

With kind regards,

Sincerely,

P.Vivekanandan

-------------------------------

 

Try Brahmacharya ( the vow of celibacy in thought, word and deed, by

which one attains Self-realisation or reaches Brahman) and you will

see for yourself the value.

 

The Srutis declare: " Naayam Atma balaheenena labhyah - This Atman is

not attainable by a weak man. " In the Gita you will

find: " Yadichhanto brahmacharyam charanti - That desiring which

Brahmacharya is performed " (Chap. VIII-11). " Trividham narakasyedam

dvaram nasanamatmanah; kamah krodhastatha lobhastasmad etat trayam

tyajet - O Arjuna! Triple is the gate of the hell, destructive of

the Self; lust, wrath and greed: therefore let man renounce these

three " (Chap. XVI-21). " Jahi satrum mahabaho kamarupam durasadam -

Kill this powerful enemy, passion, by the observance of

Brahmacharya " (Chap. III-43).

 

If we are determined to attain the goal of life by leading a pure

life, we must keep this mind busily engaged in Divine thoughts,

concentration, meditation, study and service of humanity.

 

It is difficult to eradicate lust. But you need not despair even a

bit. Have faith in God, in His Name and in His grace. Lust cannot be

completely rooted out of the mind except by the grace of the Lord.

You are bound to succeed if you have faith in Him. The Divine Grace

is needed. God helps those who help themselves.

 

Until man continues to cling to worldliness, Paramatma cannot be

grasped by him.

 

You can read more about this in the " Easy Steps to Yoga " by Sri

Swami Sivananda.

chirag almoula

 

--------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

 

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

Tabalchiji, with all the respect for you and questions, I may point

out that no one can make anyone see anything let alone God if that

person doesn't want to see. It seems like you may be insistent upon

seeing God in the way you want to see.

Please forgive me if I am wrong, but as a friend I am saying. It

seems like you may not have read the postings with open mind, with

the desire to know the truth. Open mind doesn't mean accepting, it

means you must give a fair reading/hearing and then asking pertinent

questions or raise doubts based on what is read. Here your responses

indicate you have decided that God cannot exist for you if you

cannot see or have some logic to prove God's existence. One has to

see that " seeing God " means deep understanding of intuitive nature

in this context where mind being limited cannot comprehend. It has

to be prepared to be open. Our conditioned mind is incapable of

grasping truth.

Some of us provided solid logic, but it still fell short to make you

see the pointers.

I said one cannot say " I don't see God " without knowing what God he

is looking that he cannot find. One has to know what one wants to

see, right? One can say " I don't know God, tell me what/where I

should look, and how to recognize " . It is different than show me

God, right?

Once again, God is the Conscious/Intelligent Existence as reflected

in our experience of " I am " right now as you read these words. In

first posting, dialogue was used to illustrate it as a solid proof

one cannot deny.

There are ways to experience God for which senses-mind-intellect is

not capable like they are for knowing objects. Nevertheless, there

is proof of God more reliable than that.

But this point didn't make any impression.

I request you with humility to re-read responses again and see what

happens!

Namaskar..............Pratap Bhatt

-------------------------------

Hare Krishna

 

Okay Mr. Sarphod,

 

Let's put God's existence out of equation for a moment and only

discuss about sample/logics/rationales w.r.t. YOUR existence.

 

I AM

 

Well, you don't have any doubt in your existence, right? Your body

has changed and it is rapidly changing every second. But Mr.

Sarphod, is you also changing with the body? You are certainly not

changing with it because if you were changing then who would have

known the change in body? You are that changeless element who knows

the change in body. Isn't it? Childhood, youth, old age are the

changing phases of the body but you are that changeless element who

is witness to all these changes. It is a law that only a changeless

element can perceive the ever-changing element. My question - What

is the basis of your never-changing existence? If you consider

body's existence as your existence then you are defying all logic,

because body is changing every second!!!

 

I and MINE

 

It is a law that whatever is mine, it is never I. For example you

consider your house, car, wife, children etc. as mine but you never

consider them as I. But in the case of body you say 'my hands, my

legs, my stomach, my ears, my eyes, my throat etc.' and

simultaneously you also consider it as 'I' e.g. I am not feeling

well. You establish two transversal relationships with the body,

that of 'I' and 'MINE'. Whichever thing is mine it is always apart

(separate) from you, and that thing which is separate from you, how

can it be I? This body is also apart from you but still you call it

as I. Is this logical?

 

Mr. Sarphod, now I wish to see you. Can you show me yourself???

Ohh... please don't show me that body which you claim it as mine. I

want to see that Mr. Sarphod who claims the body as mine. In other

words, I want to see that element which you refer to as I?

 

Before that I am eager to know whether you have ever seen yourself.

According to you anything that exists is perceptible. So Mr.

Sarphod, with which instrument have you seen yourself?

 

If you have not seen yourself then, well ..... do you exist ?????

 

And at last one more question- Whose name is Sarphod - body or

yourself?

 

Mr. Sarphod, with your logics/samples/rationales etc., first prove

 

1. Your existence.

2. The basis of your existence.

3. The instrument with which you have seen/felt your existence.

 

Then we will also discuss about God's existence....

 

As Sarphodji is contemplating over his existence, in the mean time,

those sadhaks whose faith in God has dwindled with his questions,

they are requested to read this Sadhaka posting

sadhaka/message/2108

 

Hare Krishna

Varun P. Paprunia

-------------------------------

 

Jai Hanuman

 

(Shrimad Bhagvad Geeta- Marathi Edition- By Saint Gyaaneshwarji-

Chapter 13- Kalyaan- By Narainduttji Gaur )

 

Jeeva ( J) (We all- as referred in BG 15:7) :

 

Mom pls tell me , when I was born?

 

Maya , Mother Nature, Prakrati, Illusion (As referred in BG 7: 13/14)

( M ) :

 

( Irritated) What non sense! Is it some thing to be told? (By a Mom

to Son?)

 

J: If mother doesn't tell, who will?

 

M: How to tell you? I came only after you !

 

J: Typical Mom ! Means- I came first and then you? Surprising? Isn't

it?

 

M: You won't understand. Be silent and sleep!

 

J: Come On ! First me ..! And then You ...!! (How can it be?) Pls

tell me the story ! Please !!

 

M: I told you. You won't understand! Many big people even could not.

 

J: Ok ! Then my Father can let me understand. Take me to Him, please.

 

M: ( Curtly) Stop this song of Father, Father. Your Father is Father

only for the name sake.In fact, I have to do every thing.

 

J: Does He not do anything?

 

M: What can He do? He is old, ancient, poor fellow (eternal) ! Then

totally actionless! Absolutely non-doer! Neither hands, nor legs,

nor eyes, nor ears! Nothing in fact! Look Kid ! Whatever colour ,

form etc of the world which you are seeing is my miracle, my form,

my competence, my work ! Ok? Your Father has neither any form, nor

any beauty. What beauty He can impart to the world?

 

J: But all say that He is the real Creator. See Mom! Whatever is my

Father, He is my Father! Ok? His insult...??

 

M: Insult! What insult? Whose insult? One who does not have any

caste or creed, any family or varna, any city or village- what can

be His respect or disrespect?

 

J: How bad He will feel, if He listens to what you are saying?

 

M: Even if He gets annoyed, what can He do? One who neither moves,

nor walks, nor travels, nor laughs, nor cries, nor speaks, neither

any juice, nor any taste, nor any play !!! This entire

exhibition/show I run, Dear Son !!

 

J But out there on Gate (of the circus) His name is written, O Mom !!

 

M: Ultimately you will take side of your Father only. Afterall you

are His son!

 

J: O Mom of the Universe! Why did not you put name of yours on the

front gate of this Great Circus? ( The world)

 

M: How to put my name. This is the real trgedy. You won't

understand, Son. I, the creator and controller of uncountable

universes can not do any thing by my name!! (Ramcharitmanas- 5/21/4)

 

J: Don't be sad and sorry Mom! What is the matter?

 

M: It is very secret, Son! If by seeing my banner outside the gate,

if somebody wants to meet with me, he will be disappointed. Son!

Please understand my pain. One is lazy ( does nothing), has no

organs, is actionless- those who want to search such (an element)

person , they search Him merely by His name! (Ramcharitmanas-

1/26/2). But to me, even when I am controlling entire sentient and

insentient world, if some body wants to search, CANNOT find! Cannot

search.

 

J: Why not Mom?

 

M: (With tears in her eyes) Because, in reality, I don't exist. I am

false. I am asat. I am non existent. My " not being " is my " being " .

Whatever is not- I am that. I am no-thing.

 

J: And whatever is there, that is who? Who is that?

 

M: He is your Father, Son!

 

J: (In mind, talking with himself only, Son thinks/says - Hats off

to you Mom! When you don't exist, then this is the scene of the

world that even Lord Shiva , Brahma are afraid of you -

Ramcharitmanas 7/71/8- had you existed " actually " Mom then.....)

 

O my No-thing Mom! When you don't even exist , then on whose power

you run this circus called the world?

 

M: What to tell you, Son? I can tell you only this much that, of

Whose a mere flicker of eyebrow, I do rule the uncountable

universes, I can't dare/ don't have courage to face Him. I do run

this circus only on His strength.

 

J : O My Unconquerable Mom! My hundreds of Pranaams to you. Bless

me , O Mom! So that I may get my Father!!

 

While bowing and doing Pranaams to his mother, Jeeva became

tranquilised and then in the background divine music played-

 

" MAAMEVA YA PRAPADYANTE, MAYAMETAM TARANTI YE "

 

(BG 7:14)

 

He was He only!

 

Namaste Jee.

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

-------------------------------

-Shri Hari-

 

My dear Sarphodji,

 

A few points to consider, I have said I have been touched by the

Divine,(just one way of putting it), such Grace is life changing, I

could be lying or be mad,(I tell the truth), but I know just by

reading the things fellow Sadhaks have written that I AM NOT ALONE.

Some people come to Bhagwan with ease and joy others take the path of

fire so to speak, (the hard miles).

 

In the west there is an expression,'The Dark Night of The Soul', and

yes! If it is known in the west it is most absolutely known in the

Indian Traditions.(I think Arjuna's predicament reflects that),I will

stay using the terminology to which I am most familiar.

You say you are deserted, you are not deserted, the Brethren have not

deserted you, and in the Darkest Moment of the Soul, there is a light

shining, that light comes from 'That', which will wash away you

tears, 'That' which will break your heart so that you can be

mended. Your arguments are not solid dear Brother, not to those that

have felt the embrace of The Beloved. Your inflexibility, combined

with your determined search, may well introduce you to 'The Dark

Night...', the very ONE you rebuked the most, will be the one that

rescues you. I speak from experience not from books.

 

With Respect and Divine Love,

 

Mike Keenor

 

 

 

 

 

PRIOR POSTING

Hari Om

 

If sadhaks can concentrate on giving short pointers / rationale

which establishes the existence of Supreme Power it will help all

in being definitive, have reference material and it will also

strengthen faith. Ego, Intellect and Mind don't let you agree that

easily. And who knows who may need in the coming turbulent era of

Kaliyug, that is lacking in faith and belief. Let us get united.

 

From discourses of Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj (Taat Shree), whom I

have solely relied on for a number of years -

 

Every human being wants the following:

 

1) To " live for ever " . This is desire for SAT (existence). Fear of

death is the indicator of that desire.

2) To know every thing. No one wants to be unknowlegeable. This is

desire for CHIT (Knowledge).

3) To be happy. No one wants to be unhappy. This is desire for

ANANDA.

 

Any doubt Mr Sarphod? Now if there is a desire then the element to

fulfill that desire must also be there. There must be some one /

some element which enables you to " live for ever " , to be all knowing

and to be ever blissful. Had such an element not existed, we would

not have had the desire for the same.

 

Paramatma is SAT-CHIT-ANANDA.(Sachchidananda)

 

Raam! Raam!! Raam!!!

 

To be continued.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

------------------------------

 

Dear Tabalchi ji,

 

According to J. Krishnamurti " modern so called educated " people want

a little bit of intellectual amusement and therefore they indulge in

meaningless discussions about God and such matters. God cannot be

discussed in this manner, because That Absolute Truth (give

It/Her/Him any name) is beyond description.

Your all the six questions are like the enquiries of a " full

stomach " tourist without an iota of appetite going through the menu,

or reading it aloud with his co-friends. If you are really thirsty

you will not indulge in such childish questions about water, but

will try your best to drink it.

 

I suggest you read Uncommon Wisdom and other books by Dr Capra (a

physic scientist) who has quoted from our Sanskrit literature about

God, or read A Brief History of Time by Hawking Stephens (well known

expert on dark hole and universe) to know the concept of time and

space. At least do go through some writings by Nobel laureate Dr

Edington (a scientist). Only then, you can be a little serious about

exploring the great Absolute Truth. Become " jyan-vijyan-triptah " and

only then we can walk together on this spiritual quest.

 

Regards,

Suresh C. Sharma

------------------------

 

Sir,

You are asking the oldest question ever being asked. See around

you, a sperm has made you upto approximately 6 feet. Who designed

this project and process. Your father and mother only are tools.

Inquire within and get the answer.

 

surender syal

--------------------------------

 

Mitro,

Why has this God become famous as " HE " why not " she " or " IT "

or " Nothing " ? Today's generation will not believe in gibberish

bakwaas . The paradox is every religion, every saint says that God

is ONE. But even within Hindus philosophy we see thousands of gods

(many names and forms). If God is One then why all the differences

and the fights? How come? Ramchander Homma

 

------------------------------

I agree with Luca Brasi that I should be fairly replied. I have

asked a lot of questions. I want proof/logic and I want to know How

is that Supreme. I want sample. I want rationale. My Begum Saahibaa

also told me that I am head breaker like your Shashikaljee told me.

But I never agreed with her so far. I never admitted this version.

I am not head or skull breaker. My name suggests that I am mind

fixer. Any way how the name matters? I am what I am. I accept my

parents because even if I dont remember my birth, they remember

that. They know that I am their child. I can see them. I can feel

them. I can experience them. I can recognise them. That is why they

are my parents. Where is God? How can I accept God on the grounds

that since I did not know my parents at the time of birth and I

accepted hence I should accept God also. Children are children. They

dont understand. But I am adult. I understand. My Begum Sahibaa

could not satisfy me and hence she asked me to get in touch with you

She said you will satisfy me.I checked with her that I am not

satisfied even after, because I have MOST SOLID arguments, then

what? Even my father deserted me because he could not satisfy me.

She said such situation will not arise. If I cant see , I cant

accept. Prove to me how one can accept without seeing or feeling or

experiencing or logic or rationale or basis. At least I should feel

or experience. Even if my parents were dead at the time of birth,

still I would accept that because how can I come without them on

this earth. What is your answer? Pratap or Vineet or Mike or

Shashikala. My Begum Sahibaa said few things regarding observations

of Vineet also. Please reply- Sadhaks of this self

proclaimed " Divine " site. Dont go by my name. Even my Begum

Saahibaa complains regarding my name. What can I do regarding my

name Jee?

 

Sarphod Tabalchi

 

 

PRIOR POSTING

Hare Krishna

 

Sarphodji,

 

Not only can Parmatma be an individual he can also be a fish

(Matsya-avatar), a tortoise (Kachchap-avatar), a pig (varaha-avatar),

a half lion-half man (Narsimha-avatar) and what not!!!

According to Gita, not only can a devotee see God but also know Him

and also enter into Him.

 

Arjuna said

O universal form, O thousand-armed Lord, I wish to see You in Your

four-armed form, with diadem on your head with club, wheel, conch and

lotus flower in Your hands. I long to see You in that form. (11.46)

 

Sanjaya said

The Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krishna, having spoken thus to

Arjuna, displayed His real four-armed form and at last showed His

two-armed form, thus encouraging the fearful Arjuna. (11.50)

 

Lord Krishna said:

My dear Arjuna, this form of Mine you are now seeing is very

difficult

to behold. Even the demigods are ever seeking the opportunity to see

this form, which is so dear.

Neither by the study of Vedas, nor by penance, nor by charity, nor

even by rituals can I be seen in this form (with four-arms), as You

have seen Me.

O valiant Arjuna, through single-divided devotion, however, I can be

seen in this form (with four-arms), known in essence and even entered

into.

My dear Arjuna, he who performs all his duties for Me, depends on Me,

is devoted to Me, has no attachment, and is free from malice towards

all beings, reaches Me. (11.52-55)

 

Please give special attention to the last 2 verses. This will answer

your question of knowing and seeing God.

 

Yes, I have also read the same in Swamiji's book which your wife has

stated. I consider it to be true because I believe in Swamiji's

words.

 

Hare Krishna

Varun P. Paprunia

------------------------------

 

Hari Om

 

No! Sarphodji. Those who want to learn should read carefully and

should learn also to be patient. All sadhaks upto now have given

excellent observations. I have also given you logics/pointers and

will

continue to give you till you get satisfied. I agree with Luca that

there must be logics/rationale existing. It is another matter, as Mr

Vineet stated, that they are pointless once you proceed ahead. But

still questions are questions and your insistence , though, odd but

still should be respected. Your " Begum Sahibaa " appears to have

directed herself to peace. I wish you understood the hidden affection

in the in the message of Mike Keenor to you. Here are more

logics/pointers to you:

 

3. In life, we always find a higher person than ourselves. In every

field a higher person than one is existing. See around you, you will

find this statement to be true. Even the President of USA can not say

" I am the Highest " . Always a better /higher person than you is

existing. Now where does this " highness " end. If there is sense of

highness , then there must be an element which is " highest " . God is

that element. God is the HIGHEST.

 

4. You always need some " shelter " to survive. In the childhood you

need shelter of parents, teacher, etc. Then of education, ability,

wife, money, home, employers, what not. In old age, you need wife,

children, stick, doctor, medicines, health etc Sujects change but not

the need for shelter.. If there is consistent need for shelter , then

there must be an element existing of whose shelter is the ultimate

shelter. Is not it Mr Sarphod. ( You should argue on such in

principle

points. Check up with you Begum Sahibaa.) ? If you are thirsty ,

there

must be water existing on the planet. Now when you need always some

shelter or other, then there must be an element which can be

described

as " Highest Shelter available " ! God is " PARAM ASHRAYA DATA " Giver

of that shelter. If you take shelter of God, no other shelter will be

necessary,

 

5. We always want to be perfect. There is no doubt on that. But there

is also no doubt regarding the fact that we err. In fact " to err is

human " -this saying is prevalent on this planet from time immemorial.

Now if there is a desire to become perfect then there must exist an

element which is most perfect. Did you ever hear that there was a

difference of a fraction of a second even in timings of Sun rise and

Sun set? Is not everything moving to the perfection? Who can be more

perfect except God. God is the MOST PERFECT.

 

To be continued till you say " I am satisfied "

 

As regards your observation that " Nature " also creates/controls-

answer is that whether you believe that nature has " knowledge " ? If

yes, then that nature is our God. In our religion ( I don't know your

religion) SHAKTI is God also. But if according to you , the INERT

NATURE has no knowledge, then you have to accept God. Can inert

nature

take care of so many souls, operate Law of Karma, provide food to so

many creatures? If Yes- I don't mind calling that Nature to be God.

After all it is a matter only of " terminology " . If no then you must

accept that IF THERE IS DESIRE / NEED IN YOU TO BE PERFECT OR TO TAKE

SHELTER OR TO SEEK HIGHNESS then there exists an element to fulfil

that desire. That element is called " GOD/ PARAMATMA " . Logical ?

Does

it appeal to your logic Mr Sarphod? Check up with your Begum Sahibaa

and come back. Your arguments shall exhaust, not our arguments- be

sure on this. After all you are on GT Site !

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

-------------------------------

 

Dear Sarphod:

 

Wonderful! I like your guts to put this question across!! I was

startled to start with and even alarmed as I contemplated " thanks

for triggering the turbulence from which proceeds the peace as

always. "

 

Son goes to father and asks, " Father, what is God? " Father

answered, " Whatever drives your life, whatever sustains your life

and whatever absorbs your life is verily God my child. Think about

It! " The father was wise enough not to instruct what God is. The son

promptly contemplates in what his father said and came back, " Father,

fear drives all the lives. Fear sustains all the lives. Fear absorbs

all the life. Therefore, fear should be the god. " Father

remarks, " Good job! Keep thinking. " The son not knowing whether his

revelation was conclusive or not continues to contemplate. Son comes

back to father and declares, " Father, desire drives all the lives,

desire sustains all the lives and desire absorbs all the lives.

Therefore, the desire should be the god. " Father remarks again, Good

job! Keep thinking. " The son does not feel the conclusive

appreciation regarding the god - is it fear or desire? He continues

to contemplate and realizes that, the happiness drives all the

lives. Happiness sustains all the lives. And, happiness absorbs all

the lives. Therefore happiness should be the god.

 

Now he does not go back to his father as he has already felt the

wisdom behind his father's remarks. God is not something that can be

taught to, or preached to or transferred to anybody. It is the

notion within ... it is the imagination within ... it is the

deliberation within ... it is the understanding within ... it is the

appreciation within ... IT IS THE PRESENCE WITHIN in its core. The

son, accepting the challenge from his father to use the body, senses

and mind blessed to him, continues to contemplate.

 

He has seen the driving force, sustenance strength and absorption

power in the fear, in the desire as well as in the happiness. He

sees that the three divinities of creation, sustenance,and

absorption transcend the boundaries of his existential fears,

desires and happiness altogether integrating the whole universe of

knowns as well as unknowns - manifested as well as unmanifested -

mitigating the differences that were once prominent amongst the

three phases of life - fear, desire and happiness.

 

Then starts another dilemma - who is the god amongst these three

divinites that seem to determine what life is? Driving Force or

Sustenance Strength or Absorption Power? Again, he approaches his

father, the wisdom established within to contemplate on the dilemma.

 

The driving force comes first to claim the unclaimed post of The

God. On ruthless examination, the driving force starts wondering

aloud that it itself should have been driven by something else. The

new driving force wonders the same and so on. The driving force digs

up an infinite legacy of its own kind beneath lost in the oblivion

of the past. It returns back in frustration not withstanding what

the driving force could really be.

 

The absorption power jumps in next to claim the still unclaimed post

of The God. Again, the wisdom starts the same gruelling scrutiny.

The power under sharp vigilence starts whithering away to wonder if

it absorbs everything there should be something to absorb itself.

The new absorbing power wonders the same way and so on. The

absorption power piles up an infinite heirarchy of its own kind

above lost in the oblivion of the future. It returns back in

frustration not withstanding what the absorption power could ever

be.

 

The empty throne is still awaiting to be filled. The sustenance

strength walks to claim the post in confidence. The valiant wisdom

does its job with no resistance subjecting the life sustenance

power in suspension of its examination. The sustencance strength

which provides strength to all the life around starts wondering what

is the source of its own strength and sustenance. The new source of

the strength resounds the same wonder what could be the source of

strength. The sustenance strength keeps jumping from on fold to

another all around the universe that is within its control to seek

itself folding itself in infinitude lost in the vast presence. It

returns back in frustration not withstanding what the sustenance

strength could ever be.

 

Seeing the crest-fallen champions of life not realizing their own

true nature around, the throne of The God starts fading into

silence. The wisdom starts wondering in itself. Is it not the

driving force as well as the sustenance strength as well as the

absorption power all the time all around? Suddenly, the demarkation

between the three divinities that was once so thick and opaque

starts giving away to reveal the force, strength and power of

creation, sustenance and absorption in itself and hence in every

thing that is perceieved ever.

 

The realized wisdom gets back and declares. Never ever ignore your

fears. Never ever ignore your desires. Never ever ignore your

happiness. Ever be with your fears, desires and happiness as you

are. Then you see the unison amongst your fears, desires and joys

and hence in all your emotions, relations and existence within as

well as around. Then you see all the boundaries separating your

notions dissolve in the very wisdom where you dwell upon. Being what

you are in spite of your apparent variances of life naturally

transcends all the barriers built by your cognition across

everything to reveal THE ONE everywhere and everywhence. Then the

very post of God does not appear to be real anymore which seemed the

most troublesome question to start with.

 

God remains evasive till you drift away from what you are in vain

searching whatever IT could be! Therefore, my dear friend, better

pause in your frenzy search and look around and look within … be

what you are. Then God is everything … not just a notion ... not

just a faith ... not just a doubt ... but, everything ... EVERYTHING

WITH NO EXCEPTION. If you remain what you are, IT is all-inclusive.

If you attempt to search for it, IT becomes all-exclusive. In other

words, IT is EVERYTHING in your presence; and IT is NOTHING in your

perception.

 

Respects.

 

Naga Narayana

--------------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

Let us address one aspect of Tabalchiji's issues with responses of

sadhakas received so far!

To be able to see God, one needs to recognize God upon seeing

anything, right? If one says I don't see God, one is looking for what

one " thinks " God is in whatever one is looking at. For God to be

" that " it will be very very limiting to God, because what we think is

so limited even if it is some grand image of God. That is not

logical, right?

Now when Swamiji says Goenkaji and Poddarji had darshana of God, what

does it mean?

It means the deep understanding of what God is and subsequent

realization that " my God, there is nothing else but only God IS in

the disguise of the Cosmos " that sees through that individual.

The individual's vision has changed entirely, where he/she saw

objects of the world before, now he sees only Divinity in the same

forms. It is our experience that what we believe out there, we tend

to see only that through our being closed minded. Similarly when we

understand God, this " Understanding " opens up the very mind who sees

God everywhere, individual is merely a channel God is using.

Other aspects of issues will see later....

Namaskar............Pratap Bhatt

 

------------------------

-Shree Hari-

 

Sarphodji,

 

Great! You are still questioning brilliant!

I have read the responses from our brethren, great beauty full of

divine love. But I will stick to the hared nosed roll,(look past it

dear friend).

If someone asked me to show her an oak tree, and I gave her an acorn,

what would she say I wonder? Of course the blueprint for the whole

tree is in the acorn, one also one wonders, did the first oak tree

have an acorn or the first acorn have an oak tree?

Question 6 if resolved is the platform upon which all the other

question can be answered it seems to me.

I can only tell you how I came to be touched be The Divine, that was

by my search into paradoxes, like the universe, like the acorn.

I once mentioned a man I met in unusual circumstance. It was about

3am

in a large air traffic control room, very few controllers in the room

at that time. I was waiting to get clearance to work on a console(to

do annual technical checks). There across the room was this

controller, He had his headset on,(with a long lead), he was

performing asanas, (within the restriction), " trying to stay awake? "

I

asked, " no he boomed " , we started to talk. We had 'Much' in common,

we

developed a dialog from then on , it was he who suggested I read

Bhagavad Gita,(I humbly suggest you do also).

He once said to me with his booming humorous voice, " Mike if people

could her us they would think we're 'Lunatics'.

What we had in common at the root, was our hunger for the truth, and

the courage, 'to ride the tiger " .

We were an unlikely pair from a world view, he was a Sri Lankan, me

an

Anglo Celt, especially if one could here us talking, but we were

brothers of the spirit.

There is much I could talk of, but I must bow to the respected

moderator.

 

With Respect and Divine Love,

 

Mike Keenor

-

Mr Sarphod ! So you are a male as well as married ! Very good Jee !

 

It is a good habit to act in accordance with advice your Begum. How

did she leave you alone? Do you have books of Swamiji Ramsukhdasji

Maharaj at your home? Your “Begum†had those books according to

you.

Did you read them? Or your Begum only reads them? By the way did

you ever think about or did you ever have a desire to smell “

flower

of sky†? Why did you not think about flower of sky or desired to

smell it ? Reply. This is a question to you. Also reply if you always

believe only after “seeing†?

 

Let us know as to how you can get satisfied according to you?. What

methodology suits your mind.? How do you generally feel regarding

this world,mind, intellect, body etc etc ? How according to you such

a

big world is operating ? Do you think there are some laws governing

this world? Keep also giving your observations , counter arguments on

EACH AND EVERY response which is given to you. Otherwise how will we

know whether the cure has taken place? Understood? You can consult

your Begum also before replying to my queries. Always tell us what

your Begum told you and what is your own observation. Why don’t you

tell your Begum also to become member and start Satsanga? Will that

not be better? What is her kind name, Jee?

 

Namaste Jee.

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

 

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

Another aspect of issues raised by Tabalchiji can be answered based

on

what sadhakas already have echoed in their responses.

The most important thing is to know that God is not " something " ,

" somewhere " and " some times " . It is at the core of our being, an

intimate experience which is The Knowingness without anything known.

In otherwords, God cannot be known as another limited object,

nevertheless, is known as " knowingness " in us by virtue of just

being.

For example, if someone were to ask you, can you show me Love, Peace,

Compassion, Beauty, Goodness etc " out there " ? You cann't! They are

experiences within us that we attribute to things/situations etc

outside which may have triggered them. Some philosopher rightly said

" From the beginning, not a thing is! " Please, please, see the truth

of

this. We are connected to the world only through Being Conscious of

something or other which we conceptualize as subject

experiencer(mind-body), and objects experienced, both thought as

separate. Such division is not experiential.

Just as these experiences are not seen " out there " , but are truely

happening in our consciousness, God cannot be seen, as separate from

Consciousness.

Sun, for example, is nothing but the experience of light and heat,

conceptualized as " Sun " out there, for practical purpose. This is

also

true for all apparant objects of the world.

God or Consciousness or Atman, are also such conceptual words of the

most intimate Wordless Experience! They are good pointers though!

When people engage in services to help others who are victims of

disasters, diseases, violence, wars, terrorism etc etc who motivates

their actions? Unconditional Love and Goodness of the heart! People

who help to preserve natural environment, forests, animals, etc etc

are also inspired by the same Love and Goodness!

Can we not call Unconditional Love and Goodness of the heart God?

Are those who bring such disasters to " apparant others " also God, if

all is God?

They are also, yes, but unfortunately " they " have not understood yet

that they are!

In God's world, only God exists playing " others " , so who does what to

whom?

Try doing evil acts after understanding deep within that all of us,

nature included, together, not individually, are God! One cannot!

 

Namaskar...........Pratap Bhatt

 

 

-

PRIOR POSITING

Dear Sadhak,

Excellent explanation has been given by sadhak Pratapji....Excellent!

If the parents donot know GOD how can they teach the kids?

Swamiji says if something is lying in darkness we can take a deepak

with us to see it but to see a deepak(lamp) we donot need another

deepak. Same way the objects of this whole worlds can be

seen/experienced through the " SELF " but to know this SELF we donot

need anything from the world( mind/body/intellect etc.) Only SELF

knows it SELF.

1. Where is God I have never seen Him?

He is not HE, He is " I " . When we can see/know who am I we can

see/know who is God.

Indeed, You alone know Yourself by Your own potencies, O origin of

all, Lord of all beings, God of gods, O Supreme Person, Lord of the

universe! Ch10:15

2. Who has seen Him?

All realized people have known HIM.Some claim that they have seen

HIM too.

Swami Vivekananda asked this question to everyone he met-Have you

seen God ? All answers negative except Ramkrishna Paramhansa.He said-

" Yes I have seen God as clearly as I am seeing you right now. "

Listening to this Narendra became his disciple.

3. How is He?

With a single fragment of Myself I pervade and support this entire

universe.Ch10:42

4. If I dont know how do I accept?

Then go ahead follow the path shown to us by Swamiji or any realized

soul, and know Him first, then accept.

5. God is a term coined by elders to put moral shackles over us so

that we may indulge in goodness.

What's wrong with that ? Accept God ,be righteous and be Arjuna or

donot accept Him, be Duryodhana - choice is yours.

6. There has to be some basis for his existence? What are the logics

which point towards the existence of God? From where to pick the

thread?

Start with meditation and Gita. Follow the path shown by Him in Gita-

Karma Yoga, Gyaan Yoga or Bhakti Yoga. Establish yr self in YOGA.....

 

No one can force any one to believe. Kids learn by imitation. Lead

yr own life according to Dharma,and kids will pick it up.Before

giving them tatva Gyaan(absolute knowledge),its better to sit with

them and watch Ramayana, Krishna, Mahabharata and let them learn by

the character of our Sagun Sakaar Bhagwaan(God with Forms). If they

can learn from Rama or Krishna, they will be on right path and will

get their realization at their own speed.

with lots of Love,

a sadhika

Sadhna Karigar

 

--------------------------------

Jai Hanuman

 

Oye What a question Jee!!. As good as the name of the

questioner!! " Sarphod " in Hindi means skull breaker ! " Tablachi "

means he who plays treble. Unique Jee !! Namaste Sarphodji !!

Welcome Jee ! There is music everywhere ! Who kept such a classic

name Jee ? Father? OK, pick the thread from father only.

 

How do I accept if I don't know? Accept just as you accepted some

one to be your father without knowing anything about him. Don't say

please- " that children now a days need more than belief to accept " .

That, I am afraid, is not as classic a statement as is even your

kind name. Fact is that children practice only belief and solid

belief. They are masters of belief - and teachers of entire humanity

on this subject of belief. Poor adults need proof. What kind of

proof was solicited by you in accepting some one to be your father

or some name to be mine or for that purpose by " the children of now

a days " - say son of Sarphod Tablachi, if any ??

 

Do you " know " as to who is your father and who is your mother? What

proof or rationale you can give to support your acceptance of Mr X

as your father?

 

You asked " from where to pick the thread " . I reply to you that you

pick the thread from yourself and your Dear Father. Come On !

 

Reply now! Argue !!

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

-------------------------------

Mr.Pratapji Bhatt has explained the existance of God beautifully.It

is very much in sync with Sri Sri Paramhansa Yogananda's explanation

in his books- " Autobiography of a yogi " and " Man's eternal quest "

which i have read. Also the story quoted by mahalaksmiji perfectly

describes how to know God.He is all knowing and yet unknown.He is

the Devine Intelligence that governs all that is known to us.God is

indescribebable.He can only be felt in the depths of a pure soul.

Ami Chhowala

 

--------------------------------

I still remain unsatisfied in this " divine " forum. How and why

Paramatma can not be an individual ? Is there nothing in your

scriptures like Gita which says that a devotee can also " see " God ?

My Begum Sahiba states that she read from a book of your Swami

Ramsukhdasji that Jai Dayal Goenka and Hanuman Poddar

had " darshanas " of God. Was His statement right or your reference

of good Swami is right? Why do you say that God can not be known?

How then the desire to know can be fulfilled? Whether I need an

instruction manual or not is not the focal point, in fact, to be

fair to me, answer to my questions in simple and convincing manner

is focal point! None of the " sadhaks " are convincing so far. I

asked from where to pick the thread? The responses are unclear and

incomplete.

 

Mr Mike ! Incomplete, was your answer. If you believe you were like

me in the past, then make me like you in the present. Is that not a

divine task? Is that not the role of this forum? Logic must exist.

Pointers must be there. Knowledge cant be beyond itself. What else

we are doing at present except meeting?

 

Mr Vyas - When Your so called " Nature " made oceans, Sun Moon etc

and when Nature is supreme then where is the question of God? Why

cant Fire/ Ocean/etc are called God ? If yes, then how God is

beyond knowledge? How God can not be seen as stated by Mr Pratap

Bhatt or by Vineet Sarvottam ?

 

" Sadhaks " - My Begum Sahibaa directed me to you people to satisfy

my knowledge quest ! I expected better as I am hungry for answers.

 

Sarphod Tabalchi

--------------------------------

Such a question can only arise from those who consider gross body as

real self and not the outer sheath of immortal " real self " which

contains the apriori knowledge.

 

They see God every day but do not recognise THEE. The Universal God

is Tri-Ani-Pada- three bodies in One i.e. gross, subtle and divine.

Since the entire Brahamad is God, His gross body consists of " Sun

and Moon His eyes, firmament his middle body and earth as His Feet "

and His Head is in Heaven. Thus entire Brahmand is God. Most of the

people who find gross body as real, want to imagine and visulaise

God as a human being forgetting that human beings who live on this

earth are " Thy " tiny living cells. We have several billions living

cells in our gross body, can any living cell of our body tell who we

are?

 

But those who find human soul as " real self " have no difficulty in

knowing God. His divine body is the Omniscient Supreme Soul

(Parmatma) and His subtle body " Mahadeva " is omnipotent Supreme

Spirit prevalent in all animate and inanimate life/things. His

spirit is found in Shuniya (cosmic void) of all kind of matter

consisting of atoms with unsuspected vitality. Because of His spirit

prevalent in shuniya, matter is not inert.

 

Since Man is born in the image of God, human beings are also tri-ani-

pada. Immortal soul resides in our divine body, spirit resides in

our subtle body and gross instruments in our material body. Those

who consider material gross body as the real self will always find

difficult to know formless and ineffable universal God.

 

Incidentally formeless and ineffable Universal God is Brahma- name

derived from Brahmand and other gods in human form are Iswaras.

Iswaras are not the gods of entire mankind.

with regards,

Prem Sabhlok

 

 

--------------------------------

Dear sarphod,

 

God is in nature,he can only be felt.His power is dwelling

everywhere in the nature in the form of cosmic vibratioins .If we

can tune our mind with the same frequency by way of sadhana we can

feel the godliness of the nature.How a sperm can create a body with

life is the proof of the supernatural power of the god. So far we

are only establishing the things which are existing, but we are

unable to establish about the source of the existence.

Our ultimate goal our of life is to reuntite ourselves with the

nature from where we have come.Nothing extra to be thought about

god. Living close to the nature is living near god. But the senses

attached to our body always act against our realisation

process.controling the senses is the biggest challenge of our life.

Let us teach our children about righteous way of living ,think

naturally and live naturally.

 

with regards

Ramana kothuri

 

-------------------------------

--------------------------------

The questions of Mr Sarphod Tabalchi are basic questions. I too

dont believe that the Supreme Power would not leave any pointers or

logics of His existence. From where to pick the thread ? I dont

agree with Mr Sarvottam that God can not be seen by His beloved

ones.. There has to be nothing which is beyond the powers of

Supreme. One principle came from Mike's narration and Mr Vyas'

message that before " big bang " too something existed or that if

there is creation then there must be a creator. But how that is

exclusive prorogative of God only ? Creativity is universal symptom

and authority. Spiders are also creators as per Mike Keenor. Please

elaborate with reference to Sarphod's questions. What about five

elements? Are they creators? Are not these elements playing the

transformation game? I think more serious and direct discussions are

warranted on the subject, not just belief stricken answers. First

the logics/rationales have to be exhausted.

 

Luca Brasi

----------------------------

 

Jai Kali Mata

 

What is meant by " No one knows about time!!! " Also, I am unclear as

to how this is relevant to the questions asked? Is this idea about

time, emanated out of teachings of Shraddheya Swamiji referred by

him? Kindly clarify !

 

Bandook Singh

 

--------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

 

RESUBMITTED WITH SOME CORRECTIONS

 

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

You have asked -

 

1) Where is God, I have never seen Him?

Answer: Paramatma is not an individual that you or any one can

simply see. Existence - IS-ness (sattaa maatre) has been given the

name Paramatma. Otherwise there is no name for that Existence or all

Names are only Paramatma's (Supreme Consciousness's) Names.

 

2) Who has seen Him?

Answer: Paramatma has not been seen by anyone to date and in future

too Paramatma will not be ever seen. Shraddhey Swamiji has stated

that Paramatma can be believed, not known, nor seen. Beyond this

whatever anyone says, is questionable.

 

3) How is He?

Answer: How, where, when, what, why, such questions regarding

Parmatma are pointless. That which cannot be known, it cannot be

described at all.

 

4) What are you able to know " Time " (samay). This question has been

asked regarding time (whose beginning and end is unknown to us). It

is not a question about the watch or the interval. It is not only

you, but no one understands anything about " time " . They can say

nothing about time. Then why do you believe in time? Similarly

believe and accept Paramatma, it will be nothing but gain.

 

5) This same work is also performed by men through establishment of

laws. Just as all do not believe in the law, similarly, everyone

continues to speak and share for correcting one's foolishness, and

according to one's own convenience and conformance giving that

tattva a " form " . You too can speak about the same as well.

 

6) 'Existence' itself is 'Paramaatmaa'. Where can any supportive

arguments and evidence exist to establish the existence

of 'Existence' (named Paramaatmaa)? Then where is one to get the

support of this essential elemental belief 'ASTITTVA'? Reasoning-

deliberation-discussion (tark), proof-evidence (pramaan) can be of

that thing which we know. But Paramatma is not known and cannot ever

be known, then this reasoning and seeking evidence is not in

conformance to that reasoning.

 

7) Do you want Paramatma? or do you want an instruction manual or

an aphorism (sutra) to grab hold of Paramatma? Don't get caught up

in the vicious cycle of trying to find an instruction manual.

Leaving the search, become engaged in " Chup Saadhan " (Effortless

Awareness, Discipline of Silence). All quest, and inquiry will be

quietened, will become still.

 

Please kindly forgive any limitations in the expression / words

used.

 

Vineet Sarvottam

--------------------------

 

Hari Om

 

How to know what is beyond knowledge - is the moot question.

 

Logic/Rationale !! Proof !!! Sample !! Consider the following:

 

1 .Whatever we are able to see on this earth there is always a

creator /manufacturer - be it an allpin, pen, table, house, machine,

house, bed, watch, pen, paper, cloth or aircraft. Anything visible.

Then there should be creator of oceans, fire, air, mountains, earth,

Sun. Moon, stars also !

 

God is the creator of all. - CREATOR

 

2. Whatever thing which moves , be it car, aircraft, bicycle,

machine, computer, - there is always a controller thereof. Earth

also moves. Sun/Moon also move. Oceans remain in their limits. Sun

rises and sets perfectly without fail. There must be a controller of

them also!

 

God is the controller of all- CONTROLLER

 

Q BUT A HUMAN BEING ALSO CREATES ! WHAT IS SO IMPORTANT ABOUT IT ?

 

Ans A human being cannot " create " anything! It is only " nature "

which creates! You can only change the shape thereof. You can covert

gold into ornaments or iron into sword or utensil, but you can't

create gold or iron ! Only nature provides that. You can mix two or

more elements, formulate, change shape only. You can create . You

can " discover " only.

 

To be continued.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

-------------------------

Kindly read bertrand russel

Aranha Roy

 

---------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

Let us continue further on the subject and build on what sadhakas

have said.

Please, it may sound too intellectual, but it is not! It may humble

us!

Consider this: If we need to know/study any object, the object has

to exist in

the first place.

Even if we cannot know the object, we always know it exists. This

knowing of an

existence is prior to the knowledge of its nature, attributes,

function etc.

The Universe is a collection of objects, and can be said to be one

Existence

fundamentally. Individual objects within it are individual

existences localized

in space and time over which they exist, and change to other forms,

continuing

the existences.

When we say Universe we mean the Existence only. Even the word

Universe points

to the Existence first. How do we know such Existence itself? Only

by being

aware/cognizant of it, no other way. So the Existence is awareness

of Existence.

To see what is prior to such Existence, there has to be Awareness to

know

whether or not such Existence IS. Thus Awareness as Existence has to

be

beginningless! What is after the Existence, non-existence? no,

because to say

it, there has to be Awareness of non-existence. If there is

Awareness of

non-existence, IS-ness is established. Thus that which IS, the

Existence(without

division into many objects), is eternally free of time and space

containing all

objects(names/forms) in time and space by creating mind and endowing

it with

this ability in terms of thoughts/feelings. Gita in 2:16 says the

real never

ceases to be.

Such Awareful Existence has to be most Powerful, Intelligent,

Beautiful, full of

Love and Blissful which is our experience. Can we not call this God?

God means Such Intelligence as seen through those who serve, and love

unconditionally, those who fight for Dharma, the righteousness, and

those who

preach God's message!

Evil actions come out from not realizing the Truth of Eternal

Oneness, GOD!

Namaskar.............Pratap Bhatt

 

 

 

----------------------------

My answer is simply to a question which has been indirectly

asked: " Why can't I see Him? "

Because He is the Seer. You are what you are looking for. It is

subjective awareness.

The problem lies with the word 'God' because we then suppose a

distinct being like a tribal deity. No, it is Awareness, Supernal-

consciousness. This is the Vedantic way. Find out who you really

are, not how others see you, but from your subjective perspective,

and you'll find what you're looking for.

Rishi Handa

 

----------------------------

Wonderful expression by Pratap (Bhatt) Bhai

 

Further, a simple but serious exercise could help in understanding

this.....

Sarphodji, ask yourself " who is asking these questions? "

" Who wants to know God? " ....and wait for the answer....

see what comes from deep inside.....

 

but you have to have patience.....and keep asking/repeating the

questions....

In fact when you come across any such question, ask yourself

who is this who wants to know this, who is asking the question?....

 

and wait for the answers and experience that follows.......

Best wishes

Sushil Jain

 

--------------------------------

I am a believer of God. Like one person said in the e-mail below, I

went through that 'show me God to believe' stage when I was around

22 years - 26 years. I was God lover before and again lover now. I

do not really know and I do not think with my limited ablity I can

ever know. At the same time I am not blind follower too. I am open

to all these 6 questions coming from a logical person because I had

them before too and have them now too. Before - with doubt, now -

with wonder and amazement.

 

Knowing God is a long journey. I am on the journey, I beleive I am

gradually understanding the divine concept. I am understanding them

through others, specially our ancestors, Indian scriptures. There

are great concepts, ideas and explanations, there are trash also

amongst them. I am amazed at the power of those ideas and

explanations. They attempted volumes and spent 100s of years to find

God and explain the divinity. Can I really understand all this in my

life? I doubt, which is why its a journey for me. Can I see God? It

depends on. I feel divinity in some great people, in their ideas for

humanity - around me.

 

OK, when somebody asks the question 'show me God', what they are

asking us is 'show me Jesus, Show me Shiva or show me Vishnu'. I

doubt if any one has seen God in these forms. Unless the divine

power appears so for any. As for God in its full form - Can I

imagine the distance between the Earth and the nearest star (Alpha

Centauri - about 4 light years away). I cannot imagine that

distance - however logically I think. Can I see God then - which is

full of this universe? Impossible to imagine. Then how can I see

God, unless God willingly appears to me.

 

My dear friend, answers to those 6 questions need volumes of

explanation or simply experiecing of the divine power - depending on

where you stand on the quest for God. Its a journey, so please

discuss with people who have done the research (of your 6 questions

before) and experience the facts yourself. You still go through the

oscillations of belief and disbeliefs, but if your quest is sincere

you will start seeing light at the end of tunnel.

 

The above does not give straight answers to even one of your

questions. So thanks for your time, if at all you read through this

until now.

 

Venu Gopal

--------------------------------

 

 

PRIOR POSTING

I will come at these questions in a hard nosed manner, maybe I am

blessed as I too waved aside religions when younger but traveled full

circle to The Beloved, who I dearly love with my absolute being.

 

Question 6: There has to be some basis for his existence? What are

the logics which point towards the existence of God? From where to

pick the thread?

O.K. I would ask the skeptical young, (I will call him S. ), tell me

S. how did this Godless Universe begin? He may be a brilliant

physicist, good chance though, regardless S will start to talk about

the 'big bang', the question would then be, o.k. S. was there

substance, was there energy, and was there time, before the 'Event'?

I would ask S. also when this energy of the bang runs out what

then?, I would press the point home that the Great Indians

Traditions had a good explanation for all this many millennium

before the present time, and is probably a good guide for the

scientists. Oh! I would ask my young friend S. where did the laws of

physics come from? Apparently they are unique, the laws had to be

spot on for there to be an existance, that is what the physicist

seem to be saying.

 

I would ask S. one other thing, how is it possible for a spider to

build the perfect web according to its kind, without actually being

taught.

 

I would say to S., think about it, think about it, be tenacious, be

mercilessness, and be brave, let your desire for the truth take you

where it will, just hang in there! S. my friend I was once like you,

maybe one day we can really talk.

 

With Respect and Divine Love,

 

Mike Keenor

------------------------

 

Dear Sadak,

 

1. Where is God I have never seen Him?EXAMPLES Most children know

water is H2O (Hydrogen 2 parts and Oxygen 1 part) ask them them to

show hydrogen and oxygen showing water. Next show them Yogurt (Curd)

and ask them to show milk. Bigger children ask them to show planets.

Then tell then from Sanskrit slokas-- " God is apprameyam " that which

cannot be seen or known by senses as in case of above examples, as

God can be only known by Gyana (knowledge)

2. Who has seen Him? Like in case of scientist tell as per above

examples, so does Saints tell. Only a saint (Guru) can show God as

shown to Vivekananda by Swamy Ramakrishna

3. How is He? Slokas say: Aroopamai, Aksharamai. Roopam, Akandamai,

Viratroopamai Etc. No definite shape as HE appears in the form that

the devotee wants. HE is in sounds - Om, HE is like Sri Krishna/Sri

Rama Etc, Omnipresent (That cosmic energy filled in everything), HE

is in all shapes and forms.

4. If I dont know how do I accept? Contemplate. If you accept that

there is Galaxies then contemplate what energy is performing whole

universe, like in the case of any toy needs battery, car need petrol

or fuel, computer need electricity etc. Still do not want to accept-

Leave it.

 

Jai Sri Krishna

 

baiya sathyanarayan

-----------------------------

 

All questions arise out of answers. When one asks a question

either he needs a confirmation of the answer which he already has

or he is answering his own question. When somebody is asking a

question relating to God, first he has to explain what is in his

mind when he says or thinks of GOD.

 

Einstein said that the world is an optical illusion. We think and

feel that we are separated from the rest. This is an optical

illusion. We have no direct contact with the outside world. All

the sensorial data has to filter through our optical nerve and our

mind (delusion). So we have no idea of what is exactly out there.

When one realizes this he comes closer to God or some superior

knowledge.

 

To realise that we are the debris of God is the supreme

realisation.

 

The most mysterious thing holds the most important key. Death is

the most mysterious thing. Death holds the most important key.

 

When death happens. The soul/consciousness releases out of the

cage (body � which is always subjected to three dimensional view

and

linear concept of time and space), one will realize or merge with

God

 

H. Subair

 

 

------------------------------

dear pratapji,thank u for giving us such wonderful knowledge.person

like you are really god's gift to us.

bhargav mehta

------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Re: Does God (Paramatma) Exist? Where is the Proof? What

is the logic ?

 

Through that supreme devotion he comes to know Me in reality, what

and how great I am; and thereby knowing Me in essence he forthwith

enters into My being.

 

Gita - Chapter 18 Sloka : 55

 

Sundara Raghavendran

---------------------------

 

Deaar Sadhakas, Namaste!

When someone says " where is God? I have never seen Him " , that person

has to know what God is that he expect to see, otherwise he cannot

ask the question. The question comes from the implicit assumption

that God is some imagination, ideas, knowledge, belief, etc. in the

mind and what I see out there is definitely not " God " .

So it is better to rephrase the question back to What God is first.

When that is understood, all questions by Tabalchiji will get

answered.

Consider the following dialogue:

Q: Do you have a doubt about your own existence?

A: No, I know I exist beyond a shadow of doubt. It is so obvious to

me!

Q: How do you know you exist?

A: I don't know HOW, but I am sure I DO!

Q: Do you need any help of another person, scripture, or some

logical explanation to confirm you do exist?

A: Definitely not, even if they say I don't exist, I know I do,

because it is experiential within me now. I don't even need any

sense organs-mind-intellect to tell me I exist!

 

So, it is self-evident existence, of " beingness " we all feel within

us, and by which we know what is knowable in this world as objects

of knowledge. This experience of Being Conscious is always with us,

never are we away from IT, not even in our sleep when body-mind-

world are all gone no one knows where! But I am always!

I just have to find out that ultimately this " I " is Impersonal and

is of the nature of Existence-Consciousness which we call God!

Personal God of Bhakta appears in this Impersonal!

Based on this, I can conclude that God is not a particular object

among many objects we know through sense organs, mind and intellect.

It is THE UNIQUE and objectless EXPERIENCE!

It is like our eyes who cannot see themselves and yet know their

existence beyond any shadow of doubt because SEEING takes place

automatically by just Being.

Once it is grasped, it can lead to God Realization!

Namaskar...

 

Pratap Bhatt

 

-------------------------------

 

My dear Sarphod,

There is a very beautiful story from ancient times that I have

heard from my guru. Once, a king called his minister and said, " I

want you to answer two questions.....otherwise your position will be

at stake.....first, can you show me God. Secondly, what is God

doing right now?

The minister was in anxiety. He went home, began searching

through various scriptures....wondering if he would have a job the

next day. His small son approached him, and noticing his father's

perplexity, inquired, " What troubles you, father? " The father

responded, " Oh, this is not something you would understand. " At

the child's persistence, the father finally explained. The small

child smiled, and simply said, " Father, that is so easy to

answer.....just tell the king that even a small child can answer

these inquiries, and I will then give him my responses " .

The father had no choice, as he didn't know the way to

respond. So, when the child came before the king, he requested the

king, " First, please have a pot of milk brought forth. " The king did

so. Then the child inquired, " Is there ghee in this milk? " The

king said, " Yes, it is there. " Then the child explained, " It is

there, but you cannot see it. Why can you not see the ghee? " The

king said, " There is a process by which the ghee will be brought

forth, of course, first one must churn the milk into butter, then

the butter is slowly heated until the ghee rises to the

surface......only after one patiently follows this process will he

see the ghee. " As the king was speaking, slowly realization came

into his heart, that similarly, one cannot demand to see God at this

moment....there is a process. One who's heart is not pure, who

does not have love and devotion, cannot see the Lord, but He will

certainly reveal Himself to those who are willing to accept the

process of " bringing forth the ghee " .

The child then said, " You are asking me what God is doing.

That is putting me in the postion of teacher, and you as disciple.

So, is it appropriate for you to be sitting on your throne, if you

are learning from me? " The wise King immediately pleced the child

on the throne, and sat in front of him, ready to try to understand

his next lesson. " This is what God is doing " ....he said. " He is

taking someone from a low position and putting him into a high

position, according to the results of his work, and taking someone

else from a high position and putting him into a low position. "

The king was very pleased with the child's answers, and rewarded him

and his father.

So, one may say, " I don't accept such simplistic

responses " .....well, then, such a person will never see the Lord,

unless and until he is fortunate enough to get the association of a

sadhu, by whose association one's heart melts. When one truly

comes into contact and develops some sukrti by contact with a God

consscious person, there is no material, anaytical way to explain

what happens. It is beyond our mundane intelligence, our ability to

analyze. So, simply pray for the youth you are hoping to guide,

and gradually perhaps the mercy of the sadhus will come to them.

It is not a mechanical process.

I hope my words have been gentle, encouraging, and helpful.....it

is truly a sadness which we all share as parents if our children

become somewhat agnostic or doubtful of the underestanding of the

Lord's presence, and the need for ancient, eternal tradition. We

can only pray to be the best examples of loving, patient friends for

them that we can possibly be.

 

respectfully,

Mahalaksmi Dasi

 

-------------------------------

Sarphod,

 

Read Paramahansa Yogananda's book " the Autoibgraphy of a Yogi "

published by Self Realization Fellowship, Los Angeles, CA.

 

Haley H. Haynes

--------------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

In this posting I would like to build on my previous post.

We as parents must deeply understand the truth of who we are, what

is the nature of world and God first. Then only we can explain to

our children. I would shy away to tell children that because it is

said in our scriptures, you have to believe in God being such and

such.

 

We can begin on the path of knowledge with the premise. That which

always IS irrespective of time, location or cause, is Truth. Truth,

thus, cannot be denied and has to be our continuous experience

always, not some states we experience that come and go, rather That

in which all states of experiences happen.

 

In the beginning it may sound like intellectual, but understanding

of that which always IS, has to be our real nature, or Reality of

whatever we all seem to experience dawns on us sooner rather than

later. What is Reality, then?

If we continue to inquire, we may find that whether I am in joyful,

or painful or sad or indifference or even in depressed

situations, " I am " always present and " knowingness " of these various

situations I am in is also always present too, which I never notice

due to my attachments/aversions to situations. These situations

eventually disappear but not " I " .

What is the nature of this I that we all say I when referring to

ourselves? Whatever it is, for sure it IS! This ISNESS-I is the most

certain experience and is Truth. Even if I see illusion, I or seeing

is the truth. This seeing then is communicated as I see an object(or

hear, taste, smell, touch, think, feel etc). I and seeing is

synanymous as consciousness.

 

Now extend this to outer world. Regardless of objects we perceive

out there, Being Conscious of them is the only truth of our

experience. Thus, alleged external world is nothing but ONE

Undivided/Whole Existence/Consciousness(Absolute) in our experience.

Mind is given to us to divide the Existence into different objects

for practical and Divine play. When we come to this understanding,

our attitude towards world changes to one of dispassion, devotion

and to serve it as God, in whatever ways we can. We see God

everywhere our eyes fall upon!

This is God relization.

Namaskar.............Pratap Bhatt

 

GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES:

1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify their doubts

related to Gitaji shlokas. Therefore, responses which further

clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be posted.

2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to

substantiate your response.

3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the

extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas

4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting

sadhaka's time.

5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only.

6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other

organizations.

7. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone

number, address etc.

8. Please do not address the response to a particular individual

since the message is going to the entire group.

9. Due to the large readership, all responses may not be posted.

10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if content

is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the group.

11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth,

westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use to Sanskrit

words only, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit bracketed

wherever possible.

 

MODERATOR

Ram Ram

------------------------

 

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Posted
Posted

My question is that how to prove that there exists a super natural

power called " God " ? At least how to explain that. How to correlate

His existence with the character of the world? Children now a days

need more than belief to accept. Can there be any way vide which we

can establish that God exists. If some body says say :

1. Where is God I have never seen Him?

2. Who has seen Him?

3. How is He?

4. If I dont know how do I accept?

5. God is a term coined by elders to put moral shackles over us so

that we may indulge in goodness.

6. There has to be some basis for his existence? What are the logics

which point towards the existence of God? From where to pick the

thread?

 

Sarphod Tabalchi

 

 

NEW POSTING

 

Hari Om

 

One who has thirst inside, only can see water. If there is no

thirst, inspite of water being in your front, it is not noticed by

you. Similarly , one who has thirst for God only can " see " God, and

one who has thirst for world only, " sees " the world.

 

It is your desire which in fact determines what you can or can not

see- IRRESPECTIVE OF WHAT IN FACT EXIST OR DOES NOT EXIST.

 

Because of your desire for the world only you see the world which in

reality NEVER EXISTS. Because of your non-desire only you can not

see God who in reality ALWAYS EXISTS !!

 

Want to see God? Mr Sarphod? Develop desire for Him !!

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

----------------------------

 

Dear members,

 

This is the first time I am writing on this forum - not because I

didnt wish to comment earIier, but only because I am too young in

this stage - by experience and by learning.

However, looking at the questions raised below, I thought I should

at least share my feelings:

 

1.God is no external being - he or she is part of each one of us -

all living beings. So please, do not try to explain to children that

god is some type of other person. And therefore, each one of us has

the responsibility to lead a life which moves towards positivity,

looking at betterment, and not hurting people, beings by our act.

 

Seeing GOD - we all have. Only some have realised him. He is in my

maid who comes to work each morning, he is in my child - who hugs me

every time I meet him, he is in my husband - who lives with me and

has made my life complete. I have seen him in the rickshaw walla -

who stopped by me to offer me ride to office yesterday. I see him

every day in different forms - sometimes, I too do not realise that

it was him who smiled in the morning and made my day. Everytime you

meet a person who does good to you - he or she is a reflection of

GOD. So, see god in all and see all in him.

2.The world is like stage (as Shakespears has said) - and all of us

are in here to play a role - be it tree, human, animal, you and me.

And so is a child here to play a role. All our roles are defined by

this supreme power, whom we call GOD.

 

3. There are many happenings in our life which we humans are not

able to explain - all this we credit to that UnKnowable

force/energy - GOD.

 

Try to see GOD in your family - your parents, your collegues, your

neighbours, and all the people whom you meet - search for that light

in them and do a small good act to make them happy. GOD would be

there with you!

 

Anita Sharma

-------------------------

Maybe my use of the word brilliant, can be misconstrued,a little too

Aussie, it was intended as a exclamation of pleasure.

 

I know you are playing the roll of 'devils advocate', as clearly you

would understand, Maya and Jeeva in Jee Jee Shashikalaji's clever

little dialog.

 

Best to direct a single question to a Sadhak/Sadhaks.

 

 

See Zen poem below:(Emptiness in full Bloom).

 

 

Leaping from the Ledge of Infinite Regress,

The Unmoved Mover fell into Formlessness:

Pure silence echoed between the galaxies,

Eons of eons vanished in a second,

Withered trees bloomed in fires,

Polar mountains melted, rivers went dry,

Thusness scattered in sixty directions,

Space became Time, time became things,

Black Holes filled with Nirvana,

A billion samadhi mirrors shattered,

Galaxies snuggled within a single skull,

Many became One, One only, only One.

Then, the Divine Illuminatrix in All Beings

Opened Her clouded Eye, to see:

Flowers in the Sky.

 

With Respect and Divine Love,

 

Mike Keenor

 

--------------------------

Hari Om.

 

Respected sir,

I've studied from my childhood that mother

is our first GOd.

We can see God only through our mother,father and Guru.

Where is the proof that you came through your mother's womb?

If you can explain how you passed through your mother with proof,

I can explain with Krushna's Grace the true Krushna provided you

have the permission to see Krushna.

Rest in my next.

Hari Om.

With Regards,

Ushasridhar.

 

--------------------------

 

Jesus Says.

I am the way, I am the Truth, I am the Faith. Please read the Bible.

thanks

Wilson Kochukunju

 

 

Dear Mr. Sarfod & friends,

 

Since the beginning of human civilization, the question whether

there is a God (or Gods), has occupied the human mind. It has also

been answered by various people in various ways in all the ages.

But, the question has persisted till this day.

 

I have my own explanation. I emphatically say that Parmatma does

exist. The entire universe is within Him and He is also beyond the

Universe. He is so great and also so small that nobody can see Him

with his naked eye. He can only be realized. Regarding proof, every

living being and every plant testifies His existence. With his super-

intelligence, man has been able to do most amazing things and

created wonders. But, man is still way behind in creating anything

that is self generating. Every creation of God, on the other hand,

is self-generating and self sustaining. Reproduction is a special

feature of every species. Yet, every species has a life-time after

which it vanishes. Even this earth will meet its death some day. We

see planets and stars dying and new ones coming up every day. This

never ending cyclic order of creation, recreation, assimilation and

re-emergence is a glaring proof of His existence.

 

Yours sincerely,

Ram Bhai

------------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

Varunji, I want to thank you so much for speaking out to Tabalchiji

about I being not judgemental at all. As a friend and a fellow

seeker, I was suggesting, Tabalchiji to read as many times as needed

to grasp the meaning or at least ask questions to clarify points.

Most of us know that when we read or hear 2nd or 3rd time it makes

so much difference in our understanding!

I want to wish you the very best Tabalchiji. One day you may wake up

and find all answers about Truth of God, this world and " you " .

All sadhakas have provided excellent answers/pointers!

Wishing you the best of Xmas Holidays and New Year, my fellow

sadhaks, I remain prayerful!

Namaskar......Pratap Bhatt

 

 

 

 

-------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

-Shree Hari-

 

Sarphodji,

 

You know; the world as you see it, is a shadow of what it really is,

I once heard it described as seeing the reflections of reality on the

back of a cave wall, one has to turn around to see the glory of what

it is.

Most people it seems, focus their whole lives looking at the false

reality reflected on the wall of the cave.

Have we not all read about Yogis with extraordinary abilities? Is

this all lies, do such souls look on the doubters such as yourself,

say nothing, smile or laugh as Lord Krishna laughed, they have

nothing to prove , all the doubters have to do is turn around as it

were, to understand.

 

One great soul that I admire was Swami Vivekananda, to me he seems to

be a man ahead of his time, a person of great intellect, and a

spiritual giant. It was he that aroused the world to the wealth that

India had to give.

 

11th September, 1893: 'Response to welcome' address:

 

" Swami Vivekananda addressed the august assembly of seven thousand

people starting with the words: " Sisters and Brothers of America... " ,

and the whole of audience went into inexplicable rapture with

standing

ovation and clapping that lasted for more than three minutes....... "

 

If you consider you have a mind of sound reasoning, then maybe you

could read the yoga aphorisms, translated by that great Swami. (If

you require any translation).

 

Why does your Lady weep, is it because she sees the anguish of your

soul. No matter what you may say or truly think, you are in conflict,

do you understand ? Jee Jee Shashikalaji has hinted at it, other

Sadhaks have made the point also, things like why ask about that

which

does not exist etc.

Sadhaks have implied that they have been through that battle. I

have,

I will tell you this, how much you reach for Father, how much you cry

for him, the tears of anguish will then turn to tears of joy, when

your heart breaks loose from prison that binds it.

 

You may not understand what I am writing about, but one day you will.

 

With Respect and Divine Love,

 

Mike Keenor

-----------------------------

Dear Sadaks,

I have not seen God yet. That is the reason I am not silent. The one

who has seen God remains silent. Let us not make tell Mr.Sherphod

Vedanta/Upanashids.

1.Where is God I have never seen Him? To see a program on TV, one

needs TV Equipment, Power (electricity), and telecasting tower

2. Who has seen Him? One who has turned his body equipment as a

temple, Power of tuning (Craving to liberate) in mind, as mind has

electricity, magnatism, and telecasting tower (GOD) omnipresent.

Just one has to tune to HIS frequency that is surrender.

3. How is He? HE is benevolent to come in any form you meditate.

4. If I dont know how do I accept? Go on saying any name of HIS.

Eventually HE will tune to your frequency as HE did to Druva.

Jai Sri Krishna

baiya sathyanarayan

----------------------------

 

Dear Sirphod

 

I made a posting on your question. There was no attempt by me or for

that matter by any body (from the posts I see) who could give you

answers like you might be expected.

 

If you want to learn about God (accept or otherwise is a different

issue) you need to spend time and energy. You can select a Guru who

can help you. I do not see from your postings you have this

expectation, but the one below.

 

But if your goal is to dispute existence of God, there could be

anohter forum that must be working on such attempts.

 

By the way you can come out with your real name.

 

Venu Komanduri

 

 

PRIOR POSTING

 

Hi Sarphod Tabalchi,

1. Where is God I have never seen Him?

It seems you never tried to see God. Seeing God is not possible by

our physical eye. Those who have an insight of God only can see God.

If you try sincerely seeing God is would not be a problem. There are

many ways prescribed in our scriptures. First, Have faith in it.

Then after you never deny God.

2. Who has seen Him?

I see Him always and communicate with Him. Not only with God, I talk

to birds and animals. I can understand them and they understand me.

3. How is He?

He is always Happy. He never deny anything. He never denied my

existence. He wants everyone happy.

4. If I dont know how do I accept?

Dont reejct anything. Accept everything as it is. Never expect

anything in your way accept everything as it is. Keep God in your

mind if you dont know God. Chant Oh God Oh God Oh my God whenever

you want deny God.

5. God is a term coined by elders to put moral shackles over us so

that we may indulge in goodness.

If you know this much of God you should not deny God.

6. There has to be some basis for his existence? What are the logics

which point towards the existence of God? From where to pick the

thread?

First you ask your Parents who are patient to teach you the basic

concept of God existence. Once you have prerequesites to learn God

God comes to you automatically. Be Patient. Can you ever see the

electricity passing through a wire. A bulb is shining, Have you ever

enquired about the electricity which illumines the bulb? Think about

TV., Fridge, Air Conditioner etc., etc. whcih can not function

without electricity. Even you can not ask these questions without

that power unseen in you. My dear beleive in God is far easier than

denying God.

Lovingly, Krishna (Shobha) Das

 

------------------------

Wonderful testing of sadhaks by Tabalchi ji

We all must thank him for the excellent questions and for giving an

opportunity to better our understanding in the spiritual domain.

 

All questions have very easy answers. Excellent expression by all

sadhaks...in answering these.

 

But it is very difficult to satisfy the questioner on the answers.

since these very questions cloud everything....and become obstacles

to understanding the truth

since it is about knowing the questioner first............knowing or

seeing God comes much later.....

 

It has happened to perhaps all of us in the beginning and we may

have gone through this period.

But if we are able to contemplate on the questions with some

guidance, question begin to dissolve/disappear........and the

answers start looking meaningful........

 

So, Tabalchi ji and the begum sahiba could start with contemplating

exercise on the questions first

for example:

 

Q1 Where is God? ----contemplate on......where it should be? what

could be the place where it could be,

why it can not be hear with us?

Q2 Does God exist? ---- Contemplate on.....Who am I? ask yourself

repeatedly who am I?

Q3 Who has seen him is irrelevant? My seeing is important so

contemplate on questions - Why I don't see the God? Can I see it?

What could it look like? What should it be?

Q4 If I don't know how do I accept? Contemplate on What I don't

know? Do I know all? How can I know more?

Q5 Any other word other than God could be used for it. Contemplate

on: Is goodness gives happiness? Are moral values important? Why

we need to fear the word God to be good?

Q6 Contemplate on questions: What is basis of its existence? What

is the basis of our existence? What God must exist? Why prophets

have to come to this world? Who are these prophets?

 

See what comes as answers. It is a good learning

exercise......answers are within and we must practice to start

listening.....everyone has to do this for himself..............best

wishes......Thank you....

Sushil Jain

 

----------------------------

Dear Sarphod:

 

I have similar questions that you have.

 

Following is the status of those questions (mind you not answers):

 

1. Just beacuse I can not see GOD, that does not mean that there is

nothing like GOD which exists, since there are so many things that

exist and yet I can not see (ex: Air, Gases and so many unknowns to

mankind yet)

 

2. Same way as I have the question on the existence of GOD, I also

have the question on my question itself, i.e. I can not prove that

there is no GOD either.

 

3. Say suppose some one suddenly shows me the GOD, what are my tests

and verifications to accept him/her/it as GOD. Do I have all those

tools, a big NO (I am not sure about you)

 

4. Even if I have all those tools to test the existence of GOD and

all the tests are proved positive, then is it going to help me. That

means, do I have the right objective to find out this very unusual

thing called GOD? What is that single biggest thing that is

bothering me about finding out this GOD? Does it have the

seriousness to find out the GOD? If it does all the above questions

should be answerd positively. Or else, I am not sincere in my quest.

 

5. I might not have all these tools right now, yet I have the quest

to know about the existence of GOD, then I do not jump in to quick

conclusions like " There is no GOD, this forum is not DIVINE, etc., "

because that conclusion neither helps me nor taps in to the right

sources of knowledge. I will be just fooling myself saying " I asked

a question which this forum is not able to answer "

 

Just for the record, I remember in the whole known history of

mankind, only one person (Sri Ramakrishna Paramahansa) has admitted

to have seen GOD and was ready to show GOD to the one who was

earnestly with deepest intellectual anxiety and sincerity (Swami

Vivekananda).

 

The one who has shown and the one who was shown the GOD did not have

questions. The SOURCE and the SINK are in the perfect state of mind,

one to give and the other to receive. Am I in the equanimity levels

of Swami Vivekananda? I don't think I am and let me know if you are.

 

If you think you are, just stay there with sincere hope, A

RAMAKRISHNA will happen to you and your intellectual quest might be

fulfilled.

 

If not I need to get there before I start looking for GOD. Till such

time, GOD is tentative truth for me.

 

With a hope it might help you,

Sincerely,

Krishna (devangam krishnamurthy)

 

Hare Krishna

 

Sarphod, you have praised me by saying " I am very good " . FYI! I was

not entertaining you but I was questioning YOUR very existence. You

don't have any doubt in your existence still you cannot prove it.

Why so?? Have you thought over it?? If you can prove it (with your

logic/rationale) then why don't you do it?

 

Mikeji called you brilliant (I wonder why) but he has also called

you inflexible. But I think you have not noted that. He, Vyasji,

Pratapji and others have also given many points. You should think

over it, compare it with your logic and then prove it wrong. But for

this one need guts, because you will have to keep aside your

prejudices to think over others' points. Even if you are not able to

prove us wrong it does not mean that we can make you accept God, we

can only give logics/rationale.

 

No one can force anyone to accept God, especially those who do not

respect their father. If you cannot respect your father than how can

you accept and respect the biggest father (Param-Pita

Parmeshwar).Your father has deserted you and your wife also seems to

be upset with your adamant attitude, but you still don't have any

shame in admitting it. Rather than introspecting over your attitude

you are defending it.

 

Pratapji has not passed any judgment; it is you who is passing

judgments. Mike is best, Varun is very good, Vyas NB is making me

think. If these are not judgements then what is it? Pratapji has

correctly pointed out that you are not reading posts with an open

mind.

 

You have posted these questions only because your wife has directed

you to this group. This is the biggest problem because you are not

interested in knowing or learning anything, you are only asking

these questions just for the sake of it, just for a mere formality.

 

Mrs. Sarphod, please don't insist your husband to post questions. He

is only wasting our time and also don't reveal him anything about

Gita, because if you do so you will unnecessarily incur sin (Gita

18.67)

 

You cannot see God or feel His presence but you definitely feel your

existence as " I AM " , right? Then why can't you prove it with your

logic. I have asked 3 questions w.r.t. your existence but did not

get any reply.

 

Hare Krishna

Varun P. Paprunia

---------------------

 

Jai Hanuman

 

Mr Sarphod ! So you do not think or talk or desire regarding "

flower of sky " - because it does not exist. You yourself said that.

You can think/desire/talk about only that thing which exists.

 

Now this is the biggest proof. You thought about God. You talked

about God. You desired to know about God. You raised questions in

this forum about God. How can you do that- if God does not exist?

 

If you can do that then why did you not talk about " flower of sky " ?

As a law you can desire about only that thing which exists.

 

Answer now! To the point only. ONLY to the point.

 

You said yourself that you would believe in your parents even if

they were dead immediately after your birth, because there is a

basis. The presence of yourself itself is an indicator of their

existence. True. Now go backwards. Presence of your parents means

your grand parents were there. Go backwards and keep going. In the

end you will find one male and one female. Who were their parents?

 

God is " Param Pita " - our eternal father.

 

Clear?

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

 

 

 

----------------------

Hari Om

 

You wanted as to what is sample of God. Answer as given by Varunji

is correct. You , yourself, are " sample " of God ! Because like God,

you are also permanent and faultless. Everybody " experiences " that -

I EXIST. ( You talked about experiencing- I am talking about

experience only) . Do you have any doubt Mr Sarphod that you are not

existing ? You never have any doubt on this. You never conduct any

test to determine whether you exist or not. You never

experience/feel that - I DID NOT EXIST. About past you may say

that " I don't know " , but you can't say " I didn't exist " ! How can

you say so?

 

Why can't you say? Because you have never perceived your " self " to

be non existing. Non existence of your " self " has never come into

your experience. Even in respect of the daily occuring of deep

sleep, your experience never suggests that at that time you were non

existent. But at the same time you experience directly the

absence of ego, intellect, mind and body etc., in the deep sleep.

 

So you exist.

So He exists.

 

Now you are constantly experiencing changes/temporariness in your

body. Who can experience that? Only that element (Self) which is

permanent and changeless and who is looking separately can

experience so..

 

So you are permanent. You are witness. You are changeless. You are

not body. You exist both with or without body. You exist.

 

Similarly God is also permanent. God is also witness. God is also

changeless. God exists both with or without body. God exists.

 

So you exist. At present you are existing Mr Sarphod Now in your

body. In which part of the body you are existing Mr Sarphod? In

which part of the body you are not existing Mr Sarphod? In fact you

are existing everywhere in the body.

 

God exists everywhere in the universe as you exist everywhere in

the body.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

------------------------------

By summery of GITA: " Tat Twam Asi " or 'That You Are'

This logic is explained by Many in different way, as Jesus : " Keep

your self as pure as a Temple, so that GOD can reside in you "

As the world today is more scientific, we require proof by our

Senses.

No machine can prove Logic.

By psychologist EEG machine shows that Yog has a point when we gain

energy from vast outer energy when we Join our inner energy during a

meditative state.

Todays scientific terms were not expressed before. So we can say

positive Energy in us and arround is GOD.

This GOD creates and increases, but the negative energy will grow

only to destroy and eliminate named 'devil' !

The different State of Mind or Self is depicted in the Epics of

Ramayana and Mahabharata by the characters playing in the theatre of

this World.

The Conditions of Heaven and Hell are also due to this state of self.

 

'Tat Twam Asi' in definition of GOD as 'Bramah-Vishnu-Maheshwar' is

also what we see in us.

Psychological mind as Male-Female has in us as a Child, Learning and

Creating with help of 'Sarswati-Bramah'. Then as we are in our

Youth, we Earn and Run our life with the help of 'Laxmi-Vishnu'. At

the end of life our Old age, Eliminate and Destroy many beliefs with

the help of 'Shakti-Shiv'. Thus we prepare our self for the next

birth. The Energy, called 'spirit' by many, is indistructible and

change form. We can ralise it and can even see as Vivekananda(non

believer of statue) was shown by Guru Ramakrishna(ardent idol

worshiper). The idol is the Mirror to see our self !

--

Regards

Swapan PURKAYASTHA

 

 

 

--------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

 

Dear Sarphod:

 

I adore your persistence to what you think is right - that is a good

quality to seek truth. At the same time, I am a bit disappointed in

its lopsidedness! It is not clear what you want, frankly.

 

I have two questions for you: Are you afraid of " God " ? Do you urge

for " God " ?

 

If " YES " to any of these questions, you have a problem. You can't

stick to your current logical conviction. It is obvious that your

current logical conviction irrespective of its self-proclaimed

excellence is JUST NOT DOING ITS JOB :(. Your logical provess can

claim accolades ONLY IF it removes your fears and quench your

desires.

If not removal, at least a nominal reduction in their intensity is

warranted ... if your intellect is working straight.

 

If " NO " to any of these questions, I see a bigger problem. Why are

you confusing yourself with these questions. That " NO " becomes

meaningless just because you are incapable of letting the very

questions go! The very reason you are raising these questions prove

that you are infested either by fear or by desire or by both

regarding " God " . THAT IS EXCELLENT!

 

Then, it is " YOUR " primary responsibility to address the same. As I

mentioned earlier, your current intellect is incapable of helping you

out. Then, you have to make a shift in your thinking to inspect the

ignorance harbored within. Pardon me for calling it ignorance. But,

the fact is ... it is. Inherent fears and desires can never let an

individual happy. They create the turbulence within in terms of

themselves. The existence of miseries is proof enough that we are not

applying our intellect in the right direction. After all, it is

common sense that we do everything ONLY FOR ONE REASON - to be

happy. I am sure you agree with it.

 

The question is are you happy with these questions as such or are you

really interested in a possible solution. If you are happy with these

questions, be happy. You can never get the solution though! If you

really need a solution, QUESTION the very questions. That is the only

way out left for you to be happy. Do you have any other choice? If

you have, please pursue. Being happy is the bottom line of all

actions ... being happy ... being happy but nothing else.

 

Nobody can instruct you what God Is! You have to figure it out

yourself.

 

I don't know who misled you that this or anything specific " is a

devine forum " as if anything else is not! If you seek divinity,

everything is devine. If not, some may claim " divinity " as if the

rest is not. Please do not get trapped into such notions ... if you

really want to seek clarity regarding your question. Question your

questions ... TRUTHFULLY. You will see the end of the tunnel.

 

Again, PLEASE DO NOT EXPECT OR INSIST FOR EXPLICIT INSTRUCTIONS

REGARDING GOD. YOU WILL NOT GET ANY ANSWER ... UNLESSS ... YOU SEE IT

WITHIN YOURSELF! The only suggestion I can make is ... look for IT

within. Because, looking out all these years has seemingly remained

futile! There is no point in digging into others' psyche when mine is

not receptive enough. If I insist to continue, I can guarantee myself

of more confusion to come!! Because ... GOD cannot be held within any

" psyche " as such.

 

Anyway, just few suggestions to think about ... think about it if you

want ... ONLY IF YOU WANT.

 

All The Best.

 

Respects.

 

Naga Narayana

 

 

 

 

PRIOR POSTING

Dear " Sadhaks " (?)

 

Why my simple questions are not getting answered. Shashikalajee

asked me some questions, instead of replying to me. I , upon the

advice of my Begum Saahiba humbly replied to her. Now instead of

responding to me, she has given a conversation between a son and his

mother. My Begum is insisting to me that I should again and again

read that. OK I will do that. But let me answer her another

question. I have not desired to smell " flower of sky " , because it

does not exist. Sometimes I feel that both my Begum Sahibaa and you

Sadhaks have lost mind. What a funny question Shashikalajee has

asked. How can I desire or talk or know about a thing which doesn " t

exist? This is my basic fundamental and solid argument. Vyas N B is

giving indicators which require me to think. I am thinking. But the

best among you is Mike Keenor. He told me to remain solid. He

adviced me to remain tenacious, merciless and hang on. I am hanging

on. But then why Vineet Sarvottam told me lies? Varun Paprunia gave

him a fitting reply. Varun - you are very good. This Pratap Bhatt

is rebuking me. Why? What is my fault. On one hand you are simply

giving me round round answers. On other hand you are passing

judgement. Is this a conduct of a sadhak. Please reply to me. Or

say - none of you have capacity to answer my simple questions. My

Begum Sahibaa has already started crying. Have mercy on her at

least. But Mike praised me. He called me " brilliant " .

 

Waiting for answers.

 

Sarphod Tabalchi

---------------------------

We all struggle with these questions. The answers I found logical is

this: There is something beyond mind and matter. Some will call that

something Omnipotent, Omniscient, Omnipresent. Others will call it

random nothing. Another question one hears is why do I want to know

That Something. To Know, or to Control it? Here in lies the paradox

and answer: If it is to know only: He is right there with you,

within you: The Life, Love Peace. If it is to control so that we

control our surrounding: That is the struggle of Ego. Arjuna had to

see the Universal form to get over the final hurdle.

Jay Shree Krishna.

 

Hemendra Parikh

-------------------------------

Dear devotees of Lord Krishna,

The discussion is interesting. I learned the gita much better after

seeing the life experience of a realized lady, who had darshan of

Lord Krishna ( first darshan of Lords feet after chanting a sloka

from 10 th chapter of Gita for 30,000 times continuously for 30

days ). Her conversations with the Lord have been recorded in

Tamil, and can be shared with the group if interested.

With kind regards,

Sincerely,

P.Vivekanandan

-------------------------------

 

Try Brahmacharya ( the vow of celibacy in thought, word and deed, by

which one attains Self-realisation or reaches Brahman) and you will

see for yourself the value.

 

The Srutis declare: " Naayam Atma balaheenena labhyah - This Atman is

not attainable by a weak man. " In the Gita you will

find: " Yadichhanto brahmacharyam charanti - That desiring which

Brahmacharya is performed " (Chap. VIII-11). " Trividham narakasyedam

dvaram nasanamatmanah; kamah krodhastatha lobhastasmad etat trayam

tyajet - O Arjuna! Triple is the gate of the hell, destructive of

the Self; lust, wrath and greed: therefore let man renounce these

three " (Chap. XVI-21). " Jahi satrum mahabaho kamarupam durasadam -

Kill this powerful enemy, passion, by the observance of

Brahmacharya " (Chap. III-43).

 

If we are determined to attain the goal of life by leading a pure

life, we must keep this mind busily engaged in Divine thoughts,

concentration, meditation, study and service of humanity.

 

It is difficult to eradicate lust. But you need not despair even a

bit. Have faith in God, in His Name and in His grace. Lust cannot be

completely rooted out of the mind except by the grace of the Lord.

You are bound to succeed if you have faith in Him. The Divine Grace

is needed. God helps those who help themselves.

 

Until man continues to cling to worldliness, Paramatma cannot be

grasped by him.

 

You can read more about this in the " Easy Steps to Yoga " by Sri

Swami Sivananda.

chirag almoula

 

--------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

 

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

Tabalchiji, with all the respect for you and questions, I may point

out that no one can make anyone see anything let alone God if that

person doesn't want to see. It seems like you may be insistent upon

seeing God in the way you want to see.

Please forgive me if I am wrong, but as a friend I am saying. It

seems like you may not have read the postings with open mind, with

the desire to know the truth. Open mind doesn't mean accepting, it

means you must give a fair reading/hearing and then asking pertinent

questions or raise doubts based on what is read. Here your responses

indicate you have decided that God cannot exist for you if you

cannot see or have some logic to prove God's existence. One has to

see that " seeing God " means deep understanding of intuitive nature

in this context where mind being limited cannot comprehend. It has

to be prepared to be open. Our conditioned mind is incapable of

grasping truth.

Some of us provided solid logic, but it still fell short to make you

see the pointers.

I said one cannot say " I don't see God " without knowing what God he

is looking that he cannot find. One has to know what one wants to

see, right? One can say " I don't know God, tell me what/where I

should look, and how to recognize " . It is different than show me

God, right?

Once again, God is the Conscious/Intelligent Existence as reflected

in our experience of " I am " right now as you read these words. In

first posting, dialogue was used to illustrate it as a solid proof

one cannot deny.

There are ways to experience God for which senses-mind-intellect is

not capable like they are for knowing objects. Nevertheless, there

is proof of God more reliable than that.

But this point didn't make any impression.

I request you with humility to re-read responses again and see what

happens!

Namaskar..............Pratap Bhatt

-------------------------------

Hare Krishna

 

Okay Mr. Sarphod,

 

Let's put God's existence out of equation for a moment and only

discuss about sample/logics/rationales w.r.t. YOUR existence.

 

I AM

 

Well, you don't have any doubt in your existence, right? Your body

has changed and it is rapidly changing every second. But Mr.

Sarphod, is you also changing with the body? You are certainly not

changing with it because if you were changing then who would have

known the change in body? You are that changeless element who knows

the change in body. Isn't it? Childhood, youth, old age are the

changing phases of the body but you are that changeless element who

is witness to all these changes. It is a law that only a changeless

element can perceive the ever-changing element. My question - What

is the basis of your never-changing existence? If you consider

body's existence as your existence then you are defying all logic,

because body is changing every second!!!

 

I and MINE

 

It is a law that whatever is mine, it is never I. For example you

consider your house, car, wife, children etc. as mine but you never

consider them as I. But in the case of body you say 'my hands, my

legs, my stomach, my ears, my eyes, my throat etc.' and

simultaneously you also consider it as 'I' e.g. I am not feeling

well. You establish two transversal relationships with the body,

that of 'I' and 'MINE'. Whichever thing is mine it is always apart

(separate) from you, and that thing which is separate from you, how

can it be I? This body is also apart from you but still you call it

as I. Is this logical?

 

Mr. Sarphod, now I wish to see you. Can you show me yourself???

Ohh... please don't show me that body which you claim it as mine. I

want to see that Mr. Sarphod who claims the body as mine. In other

words, I want to see that element which you refer to as I?

 

Before that I am eager to know whether you have ever seen yourself.

According to you anything that exists is perceptible. So Mr.

Sarphod, with which instrument have you seen yourself?

 

If you have not seen yourself then, well ..... do you exist ?????

 

And at last one more question- Whose name is Sarphod - body or

yourself?

 

Mr. Sarphod, with your logics/samples/rationales etc., first prove

 

1. Your existence.

2. The basis of your existence.

3. The instrument with which you have seen/felt your existence.

 

Then we will also discuss about God's existence....

 

As Sarphodji is contemplating over his existence, in the mean time,

those sadhaks whose faith in God has dwindled with his questions,

they are requested to read this Sadhaka posting

sadhaka/message/2108

 

Hare Krishna

Varun P. Paprunia

-------------------------------

 

Jai Hanuman

 

(Shrimad Bhagvad Geeta- Marathi Edition- By Saint Gyaaneshwarji-

Chapter 13- Kalyaan- By Narainduttji Gaur )

 

Jeeva ( J) (We all- as referred in BG 15:7) :

 

Mom pls tell me , when I was born?

 

Maya , Mother Nature, Prakrati, Illusion (As referred in BG 7: 13/14)

( M ) :

 

( Irritated) What non sense! Is it some thing to be told? (By a Mom

to Son?)

 

J: If mother doesn't tell, who will?

 

M: How to tell you? I came only after you !

 

J: Typical Mom ! Means- I came first and then you? Surprising? Isn't

it?

 

M: You won't understand. Be silent and sleep!

 

J: Come On ! First me ..! And then You ...!! (How can it be?) Pls

tell me the story ! Please !!

 

M: I told you. You won't understand! Many big people even could not.

 

J: Ok ! Then my Father can let me understand. Take me to Him, please.

 

M: ( Curtly) Stop this song of Father, Father. Your Father is Father

only for the name sake.In fact, I have to do every thing.

 

J: Does He not do anything?

 

M: What can He do? He is old, ancient, poor fellow (eternal) ! Then

totally actionless! Absolutely non-doer! Neither hands, nor legs,

nor eyes, nor ears! Nothing in fact! Look Kid ! Whatever colour ,

form etc of the world which you are seeing is my miracle, my form,

my competence, my work ! Ok? Your Father has neither any form, nor

any beauty. What beauty He can impart to the world?

 

J: But all say that He is the real Creator. See Mom! Whatever is my

Father, He is my Father! Ok? His insult...??

 

M: Insult! What insult? Whose insult? One who does not have any

caste or creed, any family or varna, any city or village- what can

be His respect or disrespect?

 

J: How bad He will feel, if He listens to what you are saying?

 

M: Even if He gets annoyed, what can He do? One who neither moves,

nor walks, nor travels, nor laughs, nor cries, nor speaks, neither

any juice, nor any taste, nor any play !!! This entire

exhibition/show I run, Dear Son !!

 

J But out there on Gate (of the circus) His name is written, O Mom !!

 

M: Ultimately you will take side of your Father only. Afterall you

are His son!

 

J: O Mom of the Universe! Why did not you put name of yours on the

front gate of this Great Circus? ( The world)

 

M: How to put my name. This is the real trgedy. You won't

understand, Son. I, the creator and controller of uncountable

universes can not do any thing by my name!! (Ramcharitmanas- 5/21/4)

 

J: Don't be sad and sorry Mom! What is the matter?

 

M: It is very secret, Son! If by seeing my banner outside the gate,

if somebody wants to meet with me, he will be disappointed. Son!

Please understand my pain. One is lazy ( does nothing), has no

organs, is actionless- those who want to search such (an element)

person , they search Him merely by His name! (Ramcharitmanas-

1/26/2). But to me, even when I am controlling entire sentient and

insentient world, if some body wants to search, CANNOT find! Cannot

search.

 

J: Why not Mom?

 

M: (With tears in her eyes) Because, in reality, I don't exist. I am

false. I am asat. I am non existent. My " not being " is my " being " .

Whatever is not- I am that. I am no-thing.

 

J: And whatever is there, that is who? Who is that?

 

M: He is your Father, Son!

 

J: (In mind, talking with himself only, Son thinks/says - Hats off

to you Mom! When you don't exist, then this is the scene of the

world that even Lord Shiva , Brahma are afraid of you -

Ramcharitmanas 7/71/8- had you existed " actually " Mom then.....)

 

O my No-thing Mom! When you don't even exist , then on whose power

you run this circus called the world?

 

M: What to tell you, Son? I can tell you only this much that, of

Whose a mere flicker of eyebrow, I do rule the uncountable

universes, I can't dare/ don't have courage to face Him. I do run

this circus only on His strength.

 

J : O My Unconquerable Mom! My hundreds of Pranaams to you. Bless

me , O Mom! So that I may get my Father!!

 

While bowing and doing Pranaams to his mother, Jeeva became

tranquilised and then in the background divine music played-

 

" MAAMEVA YA PRAPADYANTE, MAYAMETAM TARANTI YE "

 

(BG 7:14)

 

He was He only!

 

Namaste Jee.

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

-------------------------------

-Shri Hari-

 

My dear Sarphodji,

 

A few points to consider, I have said I have been touched by the

Divine,(just one way of putting it), such Grace is life changing, I

could be lying or be mad,(I tell the truth), but I know just by

reading the things fellow Sadhaks have written that I AM NOT ALONE.

Some people come to Bhagwan with ease and joy others take the path of

fire so to speak, (the hard miles).

 

In the west there is an expression,'The Dark Night of The Soul', and

yes! If it is known in the west it is most absolutely known in the

Indian Traditions.(I think Arjuna's predicament reflects that),I will

stay using the terminology to which I am most familiar.

You say you are deserted, you are not deserted, the Brethren have not

deserted you, and in the Darkest Moment of the Soul, there is a light

shining, that light comes from 'That', which will wash away you

tears, 'That' which will break your heart so that you can be

mended. Your arguments are not solid dear Brother, not to those that

have felt the embrace of The Beloved. Your inflexibility, combined

with your determined search, may well introduce you to 'The Dark

Night...', the very ONE you rebuked the most, will be the one that

rescues you. I speak from experience not from books.

 

With Respect and Divine Love,

 

Mike Keenor

 

 

 

 

 

PRIOR POSTING

Hari Om

 

If sadhaks can concentrate on giving short pointers / rationale

which establishes the existence of Supreme Power it will help all

in being definitive, have reference material and it will also

strengthen faith. Ego, Intellect and Mind don't let you agree that

easily. And who knows who may need in the coming turbulent era of

Kaliyug, that is lacking in faith and belief. Let us get united.

 

From discourses of Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj (Taat Shree), whom I

have solely relied on for a number of years -

 

Every human being wants the following:

 

1) To " live for ever " . This is desire for SAT (existence). Fear of

death is the indicator of that desire.

2) To know every thing. No one wants to be unknowlegeable. This is

desire for CHIT (Knowledge).

3) To be happy. No one wants to be unhappy. This is desire for

ANANDA.

 

Any doubt Mr Sarphod? Now if there is a desire then the element to

fulfill that desire must also be there. There must be some one /

some element which enables you to " live for ever " , to be all knowing

and to be ever blissful. Had such an element not existed, we would

not have had the desire for the same.

 

Paramatma is SAT-CHIT-ANANDA.(Sachchidananda)

 

Raam! Raam!! Raam!!!

 

To be continued.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

------------------------------

 

Dear Tabalchi ji,

 

According to J. Krishnamurti " modern so called educated " people want

a little bit of intellectual amusement and therefore they indulge in

meaningless discussions about God and such matters. God cannot be

discussed in this manner, because That Absolute Truth (give

It/Her/Him any name) is beyond description.

Your all the six questions are like the enquiries of a " full

stomach " tourist without an iota of appetite going through the menu,

or reading it aloud with his co-friends. If you are really thirsty

you will not indulge in such childish questions about water, but

will try your best to drink it.

 

I suggest you read Uncommon Wisdom and other books by Dr Capra (a

physic scientist) who has quoted from our Sanskrit literature about

God, or read A Brief History of Time by Hawking Stephens (well known

expert on dark hole and universe) to know the concept of time and

space. At least do go through some writings by Nobel laureate Dr

Edington (a scientist). Only then, you can be a little serious about

exploring the great Absolute Truth. Become " jyan-vijyan-triptah " and

only then we can walk together on this spiritual quest.

 

Regards,

Suresh C. Sharma

------------------------

 

Sir,

You are asking the oldest question ever being asked. See around

you, a sperm has made you upto approximately 6 feet. Who designed

this project and process. Your father and mother only are tools.

Inquire within and get the answer.

 

surender syal

--------------------------------

 

Mitro,

Why has this God become famous as " HE " why not " she " or " IT "

or " Nothing " ? Today's generation will not believe in gibberish

bakwaas . The paradox is every religion, every saint says that God

is ONE. But even within Hindus philosophy we see thousands of gods

(many names and forms). If God is One then why all the differences

and the fights? How come? Ramchander Homma

 

------------------------------

I agree with Luca Brasi that I should be fairly replied. I have

asked a lot of questions. I want proof/logic and I want to know How

is that Supreme. I want sample. I want rationale. My Begum Saahibaa

also told me that I am head breaker like your Shashikaljee told me.

But I never agreed with her so far. I never admitted this version.

I am not head or skull breaker. My name suggests that I am mind

fixer. Any way how the name matters? I am what I am. I accept my

parents because even if I dont remember my birth, they remember

that. They know that I am their child. I can see them. I can feel

them. I can experience them. I can recognise them. That is why they

are my parents. Where is God? How can I accept God on the grounds

that since I did not know my parents at the time of birth and I

accepted hence I should accept God also. Children are children. They

dont understand. But I am adult. I understand. My Begum Sahibaa

could not satisfy me and hence she asked me to get in touch with you

She said you will satisfy me.I checked with her that I am not

satisfied even after, because I have MOST SOLID arguments, then

what? Even my father deserted me because he could not satisfy me.

She said such situation will not arise. If I cant see , I cant

accept. Prove to me how one can accept without seeing or feeling or

experiencing or logic or rationale or basis. At least I should feel

or experience. Even if my parents were dead at the time of birth,

still I would accept that because how can I come without them on

this earth. What is your answer? Pratap or Vineet or Mike or

Shashikala. My Begum Sahibaa said few things regarding observations

of Vineet also. Please reply- Sadhaks of this self

proclaimed " Divine " site. Dont go by my name. Even my Begum

Saahibaa complains regarding my name. What can I do regarding my

name Jee?

 

Sarphod Tabalchi

 

 

PRIOR POSTING

Hare Krishna

 

Sarphodji,

 

Not only can Parmatma be an individual he can also be a fish

(Matsya-avatar), a tortoise (Kachchap-avatar), a pig (varaha-avatar),

a half lion-half man (Narsimha-avatar) and what not!!!

According to Gita, not only can a devotee see God but also know Him

and also enter into Him.

 

Arjuna said

O universal form, O thousand-armed Lord, I wish to see You in Your

four-armed form, with diadem on your head with club, wheel, conch and

lotus flower in Your hands. I long to see You in that form. (11.46)

 

Sanjaya said

The Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krishna, having spoken thus to

Arjuna, displayed His real four-armed form and at last showed His

two-armed form, thus encouraging the fearful Arjuna. (11.50)

 

Lord Krishna said:

My dear Arjuna, this form of Mine you are now seeing is very

difficult

to behold. Even the demigods are ever seeking the opportunity to see

this form, which is so dear.

Neither by the study of Vedas, nor by penance, nor by charity, nor

even by rituals can I be seen in this form (with four-arms), as You

have seen Me.

O valiant Arjuna, through single-divided devotion, however, I can be

seen in this form (with four-arms), known in essence and even entered

into.

My dear Arjuna, he who performs all his duties for Me, depends on Me,

is devoted to Me, has no attachment, and is free from malice towards

all beings, reaches Me. (11.52-55)

 

Please give special attention to the last 2 verses. This will answer

your question of knowing and seeing God.

 

Yes, I have also read the same in Swamiji's book which your wife has

stated. I consider it to be true because I believe in Swamiji's

words.

 

Hare Krishna

Varun P. Paprunia

------------------------------

 

Hari Om

 

No! Sarphodji. Those who want to learn should read carefully and

should learn also to be patient. All sadhaks upto now have given

excellent observations. I have also given you logics/pointers and

will

continue to give you till you get satisfied. I agree with Luca that

there must be logics/rationale existing. It is another matter, as Mr

Vineet stated, that they are pointless once you proceed ahead. But

still questions are questions and your insistence , though, odd but

still should be respected. Your " Begum Sahibaa " appears to have

directed herself to peace. I wish you understood the hidden affection

in the in the message of Mike Keenor to you. Here are more

logics/pointers to you:

 

3. In life, we always find a higher person than ourselves. In every

field a higher person than one is existing. See around you, you will

find this statement to be true. Even the President of USA can not say

" I am the Highest " . Always a better /higher person than you is

existing. Now where does this " highness " end. If there is sense of

highness , then there must be an element which is " highest " . God is

that element. God is the HIGHEST.

 

4. You always need some " shelter " to survive. In the childhood you

need shelter of parents, teacher, etc. Then of education, ability,

wife, money, home, employers, what not. In old age, you need wife,

children, stick, doctor, medicines, health etc Sujects change but not

the need for shelter.. If there is consistent need for shelter , then

there must be an element existing of whose shelter is the ultimate

shelter. Is not it Mr Sarphod. ( You should argue on such in

principle

points. Check up with you Begum Sahibaa.) ? If you are thirsty ,

there

must be water existing on the planet. Now when you need always some

shelter or other, then there must be an element which can be

described

as " Highest Shelter available " ! God is " PARAM ASHRAYA DATA " Giver

of that shelter. If you take shelter of God, no other shelter will be

necessary,

 

5. We always want to be perfect. There is no doubt on that. But there

is also no doubt regarding the fact that we err. In fact " to err is

human " -this saying is prevalent on this planet from time immemorial.

Now if there is a desire to become perfect then there must exist an

element which is most perfect. Did you ever hear that there was a

difference of a fraction of a second even in timings of Sun rise and

Sun set? Is not everything moving to the perfection? Who can be more

perfect except God. God is the MOST PERFECT.

 

To be continued till you say " I am satisfied "

 

As regards your observation that " Nature " also creates/controls-

answer is that whether you believe that nature has " knowledge " ? If

yes, then that nature is our God. In our religion ( I don't know your

religion) SHAKTI is God also. But if according to you , the INERT

NATURE has no knowledge, then you have to accept God. Can inert

nature

take care of so many souls, operate Law of Karma, provide food to so

many creatures? If Yes- I don't mind calling that Nature to be God.

After all it is a matter only of " terminology " . If no then you must

accept that IF THERE IS DESIRE / NEED IN YOU TO BE PERFECT OR TO TAKE

SHELTER OR TO SEEK HIGHNESS then there exists an element to fulfil

that desire. That element is called " GOD/ PARAMATMA " . Logical ?

Does

it appeal to your logic Mr Sarphod? Check up with your Begum Sahibaa

and come back. Your arguments shall exhaust, not our arguments- be

sure on this. After all you are on GT Site !

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

-------------------------------

 

Dear Sarphod:

 

Wonderful! I like your guts to put this question across!! I was

startled to start with and even alarmed as I contemplated " thanks

for triggering the turbulence from which proceeds the peace as

always. "

 

Son goes to father and asks, " Father, what is God? " Father

answered, " Whatever drives your life, whatever sustains your life

and whatever absorbs your life is verily God my child. Think about

It! " The father was wise enough not to instruct what God is. The son

promptly contemplates in what his father said and came back, " Father,

fear drives all the lives. Fear sustains all the lives. Fear absorbs

all the life. Therefore, fear should be the god. " Father

remarks, " Good job! Keep thinking. " The son not knowing whether his

revelation was conclusive or not continues to contemplate. Son comes

back to father and declares, " Father, desire drives all the lives,

desire sustains all the lives and desire absorbs all the lives.

Therefore, the desire should be the god. " Father remarks again, Good

job! Keep thinking. " The son does not feel the conclusive

appreciation regarding the god - is it fear or desire? He continues

to contemplate and realizes that, the happiness drives all the

lives. Happiness sustains all the lives. And, happiness absorbs all

the lives. Therefore happiness should be the god.

 

Now he does not go back to his father as he has already felt the

wisdom behind his father's remarks. God is not something that can be

taught to, or preached to or transferred to anybody. It is the

notion within ... it is the imagination within ... it is the

deliberation within ... it is the understanding within ... it is the

appreciation within ... IT IS THE PRESENCE WITHIN in its core. The

son, accepting the challenge from his father to use the body, senses

and mind blessed to him, continues to contemplate.

 

He has seen the driving force, sustenance strength and absorption

power in the fear, in the desire as well as in the happiness. He

sees that the three divinities of creation, sustenance,and

absorption transcend the boundaries of his existential fears,

desires and happiness altogether integrating the whole universe of

knowns as well as unknowns - manifested as well as unmanifested -

mitigating the differences that were once prominent amongst the

three phases of life - fear, desire and happiness.

 

Then starts another dilemma - who is the god amongst these three

divinites that seem to determine what life is? Driving Force or

Sustenance Strength or Absorption Power? Again, he approaches his

father, the wisdom established within to contemplate on the dilemma.

 

The driving force comes first to claim the unclaimed post of The

God. On ruthless examination, the driving force starts wondering

aloud that it itself should have been driven by something else. The

new driving force wonders the same and so on. The driving force digs

up an infinite legacy of its own kind beneath lost in the oblivion

of the past. It returns back in frustration not withstanding what

the driving force could really be.

 

The absorption power jumps in next to claim the still unclaimed post

of The God. Again, the wisdom starts the same gruelling scrutiny.

The power under sharp vigilence starts whithering away to wonder if

it absorbs everything there should be something to absorb itself.

The new absorbing power wonders the same way and so on. The

absorption power piles up an infinite heirarchy of its own kind

above lost in the oblivion of the future. It returns back in

frustration not withstanding what the absorption power could ever

be.

 

The empty throne is still awaiting to be filled. The sustenance

strength walks to claim the post in confidence. The valiant wisdom

does its job with no resistance subjecting the life sustenance

power in suspension of its examination. The sustencance strength

which provides strength to all the life around starts wondering what

is the source of its own strength and sustenance. The new source of

the strength resounds the same wonder what could be the source of

strength. The sustenance strength keeps jumping from on fold to

another all around the universe that is within its control to seek

itself folding itself in infinitude lost in the vast presence. It

returns back in frustration not withstanding what the sustenance

strength could ever be.

 

Seeing the crest-fallen champions of life not realizing their own

true nature around, the throne of The God starts fading into

silence. The wisdom starts wondering in itself. Is it not the

driving force as well as the sustenance strength as well as the

absorption power all the time all around? Suddenly, the demarkation

between the three divinities that was once so thick and opaque

starts giving away to reveal the force, strength and power of

creation, sustenance and absorption in itself and hence in every

thing that is perceieved ever.

 

The realized wisdom gets back and declares. Never ever ignore your

fears. Never ever ignore your desires. Never ever ignore your

happiness. Ever be with your fears, desires and happiness as you

are. Then you see the unison amongst your fears, desires and joys

and hence in all your emotions, relations and existence within as

well as around. Then you see all the boundaries separating your

notions dissolve in the very wisdom where you dwell upon. Being what

you are in spite of your apparent variances of life naturally

transcends all the barriers built by your cognition across

everything to reveal THE ONE everywhere and everywhence. Then the

very post of God does not appear to be real anymore which seemed the

most troublesome question to start with.

 

God remains evasive till you drift away from what you are in vain

searching whatever IT could be! Therefore, my dear friend, better

pause in your frenzy search and look around and look within … be

what you are. Then God is everything … not just a notion ... not

just a faith ... not just a doubt ... but, everything ... EVERYTHING

WITH NO EXCEPTION. If you remain what you are, IT is all-inclusive.

If you attempt to search for it, IT becomes all-exclusive. In other

words, IT is EVERYTHING in your presence; and IT is NOTHING in your

perception.

 

Respects.

 

Naga Narayana

--------------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

Let us address one aspect of Tabalchiji's issues with responses of

sadhakas received so far!

To be able to see God, one needs to recognize God upon seeing

anything, right? If one says I don't see God, one is looking for what

one " thinks " God is in whatever one is looking at. For God to be

" that " it will be very very limiting to God, because what we think is

so limited even if it is some grand image of God. That is not

logical, right?

Now when Swamiji says Goenkaji and Poddarji had darshana of God, what

does it mean?

It means the deep understanding of what God is and subsequent

realization that " my God, there is nothing else but only God IS in

the disguise of the Cosmos " that sees through that individual.

The individual's vision has changed entirely, where he/she saw

objects of the world before, now he sees only Divinity in the same

forms. It is our experience that what we believe out there, we tend

to see only that through our being closed minded. Similarly when we

understand God, this " Understanding " opens up the very mind who sees

God everywhere, individual is merely a channel God is using.

Other aspects of issues will see later....

Namaskar............Pratap Bhatt

 

------------------------

-Shree Hari-

 

Sarphodji,

 

Great! You are still questioning brilliant!

I have read the responses from our brethren, great beauty full of

divine love. But I will stick to the hared nosed roll,(look past it

dear friend).

If someone asked me to show her an oak tree, and I gave her an acorn,

what would she say I wonder? Of course the blueprint for the whole

tree is in the acorn, one also one wonders, did the first oak tree

have an acorn or the first acorn have an oak tree?

Question 6 if resolved is the platform upon which all the other

question can be answered it seems to me.

I can only tell you how I came to be touched be The Divine, that was

by my search into paradoxes, like the universe, like the acorn.

I once mentioned a man I met in unusual circumstance. It was about

3am

in a large air traffic control room, very few controllers in the room

at that time. I was waiting to get clearance to work on a console(to

do annual technical checks). There across the room was this

controller, He had his headset on,(with a long lead), he was

performing asanas, (within the restriction), " trying to stay awake? "

I

asked, " no he boomed " , we started to talk. We had 'Much' in common,

we

developed a dialog from then on , it was he who suggested I read

Bhagavad Gita,(I humbly suggest you do also).

He once said to me with his booming humorous voice, " Mike if people

could her us they would think we're 'Lunatics'.

What we had in common at the root, was our hunger for the truth, and

the courage, 'to ride the tiger " .

We were an unlikely pair from a world view, he was a Sri Lankan, me

an

Anglo Celt, especially if one could here us talking, but we were

brothers of the spirit.

There is much I could talk of, but I must bow to the respected

moderator.

 

With Respect and Divine Love,

 

Mike Keenor

-

Mr Sarphod ! So you are a male as well as married ! Very good Jee !

 

It is a good habit to act in accordance with advice your Begum. How

did she leave you alone? Do you have books of Swamiji Ramsukhdasji

Maharaj at your home? Your “Begum†had those books according to

you.

Did you read them? Or your Begum only reads them? By the way did

you ever think about or did you ever have a desire to smell “

flower

of sky†? Why did you not think about flower of sky or desired to

smell it ? Reply. This is a question to you. Also reply if you always

believe only after “seeing†?

 

Let us know as to how you can get satisfied according to you?. What

methodology suits your mind.? How do you generally feel regarding

this world,mind, intellect, body etc etc ? How according to you such

a

big world is operating ? Do you think there are some laws governing

this world? Keep also giving your observations , counter arguments on

EACH AND EVERY response which is given to you. Otherwise how will we

know whether the cure has taken place? Understood? You can consult

your Begum also before replying to my queries. Always tell us what

your Begum told you and what is your own observation. Why don’t you

tell your Begum also to become member and start Satsanga? Will that

not be better? What is her kind name, Jee?

 

Namaste Jee.

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

 

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

Another aspect of issues raised by Tabalchiji can be answered based

on

what sadhakas already have echoed in their responses.

The most important thing is to know that God is not " something " ,

" somewhere " and " some times " . It is at the core of our being, an

intimate experience which is The Knowingness without anything known.

In otherwords, God cannot be known as another limited object,

nevertheless, is known as " knowingness " in us by virtue of just

being.

For example, if someone were to ask you, can you show me Love, Peace,

Compassion, Beauty, Goodness etc " out there " ? You cann't! They are

experiences within us that we attribute to things/situations etc

outside which may have triggered them. Some philosopher rightly said

" From the beginning, not a thing is! " Please, please, see the truth

of

this. We are connected to the world only through Being Conscious of

something or other which we conceptualize as subject

experiencer(mind-body), and objects experienced, both thought as

separate. Such division is not experiential.

Just as these experiences are not seen " out there " , but are truely

happening in our consciousness, God cannot be seen, as separate from

Consciousness.

Sun, for example, is nothing but the experience of light and heat,

conceptualized as " Sun " out there, for practical purpose. This is

also

true for all apparant objects of the world.

God or Consciousness or Atman, are also such conceptual words of the

most intimate Wordless Experience! They are good pointers though!

When people engage in services to help others who are victims of

disasters, diseases, violence, wars, terrorism etc etc who motivates

their actions? Unconditional Love and Goodness of the heart! People

who help to preserve natural environment, forests, animals, etc etc

are also inspired by the same Love and Goodness!

Can we not call Unconditional Love and Goodness of the heart God?

Are those who bring such disasters to " apparant others " also God, if

all is God?

They are also, yes, but unfortunately " they " have not understood yet

that they are!

In God's world, only God exists playing " others " , so who does what to

whom?

Try doing evil acts after understanding deep within that all of us,

nature included, together, not individually, are God! One cannot!

 

Namaskar...........Pratap Bhatt

 

 

-

PRIOR POSITING

Dear Sadhak,

Excellent explanation has been given by sadhak Pratapji....Excellent!

If the parents donot know GOD how can they teach the kids?

Swamiji says if something is lying in darkness we can take a deepak

with us to see it but to see a deepak(lamp) we donot need another

deepak. Same way the objects of this whole worlds can be

seen/experienced through the " SELF " but to know this SELF we donot

need anything from the world( mind/body/intellect etc.) Only SELF

knows it SELF.

1. Where is God I have never seen Him?

He is not HE, He is " I " . When we can see/know who am I we can

see/know who is God.

Indeed, You alone know Yourself by Your own potencies, O origin of

all, Lord of all beings, God of gods, O Supreme Person, Lord of the

universe! Ch10:15

2. Who has seen Him?

All realized people have known HIM.Some claim that they have seen

HIM too.

Swami Vivekananda asked this question to everyone he met-Have you

seen God ? All answers negative except Ramkrishna Paramhansa.He said-

" Yes I have seen God as clearly as I am seeing you right now. "

Listening to this Narendra became his disciple.

3. How is He?

With a single fragment of Myself I pervade and support this entire

universe.Ch10:42

4. If I dont know how do I accept?

Then go ahead follow the path shown to us by Swamiji or any realized

soul, and know Him first, then accept.

5. God is a term coined by elders to put moral shackles over us so

that we may indulge in goodness.

What's wrong with that ? Accept God ,be righteous and be Arjuna or

donot accept Him, be Duryodhana - choice is yours.

6. There has to be some basis for his existence? What are the logics

which point towards the existence of God? From where to pick the

thread?

Start with meditation and Gita. Follow the path shown by Him in Gita-

Karma Yoga, Gyaan Yoga or Bhakti Yoga. Establish yr self in YOGA.....

 

No one can force any one to believe. Kids learn by imitation. Lead

yr own life according to Dharma,and kids will pick it up.Before

giving them tatva Gyaan(absolute knowledge),its better to sit with

them and watch Ramayana, Krishna, Mahabharata and let them learn by

the character of our Sagun Sakaar Bhagwaan(God with Forms). If they

can learn from Rama or Krishna, they will be on right path and will

get their realization at their own speed.

with lots of Love,

a sadhika

Sadhna Karigar

 

--------------------------------

Jai Hanuman

 

Oye What a question Jee!!. As good as the name of the

questioner!! " Sarphod " in Hindi means skull breaker ! " Tablachi "

means he who plays treble. Unique Jee !! Namaste Sarphodji !!

Welcome Jee ! There is music everywhere ! Who kept such a classic

name Jee ? Father? OK, pick the thread from father only.

 

How do I accept if I don't know? Accept just as you accepted some

one to be your father without knowing anything about him. Don't say

please- " that children now a days need more than belief to accept " .

That, I am afraid, is not as classic a statement as is even your

kind name. Fact is that children practice only belief and solid

belief. They are masters of belief - and teachers of entire humanity

on this subject of belief. Poor adults need proof. What kind of

proof was solicited by you in accepting some one to be your father

or some name to be mine or for that purpose by " the children of now

a days " - say son of Sarphod Tablachi, if any ??

 

Do you " know " as to who is your father and who is your mother? What

proof or rationale you can give to support your acceptance of Mr X

as your father?

 

You asked " from where to pick the thread " . I reply to you that you

pick the thread from yourself and your Dear Father. Come On !

 

Reply now! Argue !!

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

-------------------------------

Mr.Pratapji Bhatt has explained the existance of God beautifully.It

is very much in sync with Sri Sri Paramhansa Yogananda's explanation

in his books- " Autobiography of a yogi " and " Man's eternal quest "

which i have read. Also the story quoted by mahalaksmiji perfectly

describes how to know God.He is all knowing and yet unknown.He is

the Devine Intelligence that governs all that is known to us.God is

indescribebable.He can only be felt in the depths of a pure soul.

Ami Chhowala

 

--------------------------------

I still remain unsatisfied in this " divine " forum. How and why

Paramatma can not be an individual ? Is there nothing in your

scriptures like Gita which says that a devotee can also " see " God ?

My Begum Sahiba states that she read from a book of your Swami

Ramsukhdasji that Jai Dayal Goenka and Hanuman Poddar

had " darshanas " of God. Was His statement right or your reference

of good Swami is right? Why do you say that God can not be known?

How then the desire to know can be fulfilled? Whether I need an

instruction manual or not is not the focal point, in fact, to be

fair to me, answer to my questions in simple and convincing manner

is focal point! None of the " sadhaks " are convincing so far. I

asked from where to pick the thread? The responses are unclear and

incomplete.

 

Mr Mike ! Incomplete, was your answer. If you believe you were like

me in the past, then make me like you in the present. Is that not a

divine task? Is that not the role of this forum? Logic must exist.

Pointers must be there. Knowledge cant be beyond itself. What else

we are doing at present except meeting?

 

Mr Vyas - When Your so called " Nature " made oceans, Sun Moon etc

and when Nature is supreme then where is the question of God? Why

cant Fire/ Ocean/etc are called God ? If yes, then how God is

beyond knowledge? How God can not be seen as stated by Mr Pratap

Bhatt or by Vineet Sarvottam ?

 

" Sadhaks " - My Begum Sahibaa directed me to you people to satisfy

my knowledge quest ! I expected better as I am hungry for answers.

 

Sarphod Tabalchi

--------------------------------

Such a question can only arise from those who consider gross body as

real self and not the outer sheath of immortal " real self " which

contains the apriori knowledge.

 

They see God every day but do not recognise THEE. The Universal God

is Tri-Ani-Pada- three bodies in One i.e. gross, subtle and divine.

Since the entire Brahamad is God, His gross body consists of " Sun

and Moon His eyes, firmament his middle body and earth as His Feet "

and His Head is in Heaven. Thus entire Brahmand is God. Most of the

people who find gross body as real, want to imagine and visulaise

God as a human being forgetting that human beings who live on this

earth are " Thy " tiny living cells. We have several billions living

cells in our gross body, can any living cell of our body tell who we

are?

 

But those who find human soul as " real self " have no difficulty in

knowing God. His divine body is the Omniscient Supreme Soul

(Parmatma) and His subtle body " Mahadeva " is omnipotent Supreme

Spirit prevalent in all animate and inanimate life/things. His

spirit is found in Shuniya (cosmic void) of all kind of matter

consisting of atoms with unsuspected vitality. Because of His spirit

prevalent in shuniya, matter is not inert.

 

Since Man is born in the image of God, human beings are also tri-ani-

pada. Immortal soul resides in our divine body, spirit resides in

our subtle body and gross instruments in our material body. Those

who consider material gross body as the real self will always find

difficult to know formless and ineffable universal God.

 

Incidentally formeless and ineffable Universal God is Brahma- name

derived from Brahmand and other gods in human form are Iswaras.

Iswaras are not the gods of entire mankind.

with regards,

Prem Sabhlok

 

 

--------------------------------

Dear sarphod,

 

God is in nature,he can only be felt.His power is dwelling

everywhere in the nature in the form of cosmic vibratioins .If we

can tune our mind with the same frequency by way of sadhana we can

feel the godliness of the nature.How a sperm can create a body with

life is the proof of the supernatural power of the god. So far we

are only establishing the things which are existing, but we are

unable to establish about the source of the existence.

Our ultimate goal our of life is to reuntite ourselves with the

nature from where we have come.Nothing extra to be thought about

god. Living close to the nature is living near god. But the senses

attached to our body always act against our realisation

process.controling the senses is the biggest challenge of our life.

Let us teach our children about righteous way of living ,think

naturally and live naturally.

 

with regards

Ramana kothuri

 

-------------------------------

--------------------------------

The questions of Mr Sarphod Tabalchi are basic questions. I too

dont believe that the Supreme Power would not leave any pointers or

logics of His existence. From where to pick the thread ? I dont

agree with Mr Sarvottam that God can not be seen by His beloved

ones.. There has to be nothing which is beyond the powers of

Supreme. One principle came from Mike's narration and Mr Vyas'

message that before " big bang " too something existed or that if

there is creation then there must be a creator. But how that is

exclusive prorogative of God only ? Creativity is universal symptom

and authority. Spiders are also creators as per Mike Keenor. Please

elaborate with reference to Sarphod's questions. What about five

elements? Are they creators? Are not these elements playing the

transformation game? I think more serious and direct discussions are

warranted on the subject, not just belief stricken answers. First

the logics/rationales have to be exhausted.

 

Luca Brasi

----------------------------

 

Jai Kali Mata

 

What is meant by " No one knows about time!!! " Also, I am unclear as

to how this is relevant to the questions asked? Is this idea about

time, emanated out of teachings of Shraddheya Swamiji referred by

him? Kindly clarify !

 

Bandook Singh

 

--------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

 

RESUBMITTED WITH SOME CORRECTIONS

 

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

You have asked -

 

1) Where is God, I have never seen Him?

Answer: Paramatma is not an individual that you or any one can

simply see. Existence - IS-ness (sattaa maatre) has been given the

name Paramatma. Otherwise there is no name for that Existence or all

Names are only Paramatma's (Supreme Consciousness's) Names.

 

2) Who has seen Him?

Answer: Paramatma has not been seen by anyone to date and in future

too Paramatma will not be ever seen. Shraddhey Swamiji has stated

that Paramatma can be believed, not known, nor seen. Beyond this

whatever anyone says, is questionable.

 

3) How is He?

Answer: How, where, when, what, why, such questions regarding

Parmatma are pointless. That which cannot be known, it cannot be

described at all.

 

4) What are you able to know " Time " (samay). This question has been

asked regarding time (whose beginning and end is unknown to us). It

is not a question about the watch or the interval. It is not only

you, but no one understands anything about " time " . They can say

nothing about time. Then why do you believe in time? Similarly

believe and accept Paramatma, it will be nothing but gain.

 

5) This same work is also performed by men through establishment of

laws. Just as all do not believe in the law, similarly, everyone

continues to speak and share for correcting one's foolishness, and

according to one's own convenience and conformance giving that

tattva a " form " . You too can speak about the same as well.

 

6) 'Existence' itself is 'Paramaatmaa'. Where can any supportive

arguments and evidence exist to establish the existence

of 'Existence' (named Paramaatmaa)? Then where is one to get the

support of this essential elemental belief 'ASTITTVA'? Reasoning-

deliberation-discussion (tark), proof-evidence (pramaan) can be of

that thing which we know. But Paramatma is not known and cannot ever

be known, then this reasoning and seeking evidence is not in

conformance to that reasoning.

 

7) Do you want Paramatma? or do you want an instruction manual or

an aphorism (sutra) to grab hold of Paramatma? Don't get caught up

in the vicious cycle of trying to find an instruction manual.

Leaving the search, become engaged in " Chup Saadhan " (Effortless

Awareness, Discipline of Silence). All quest, and inquiry will be

quietened, will become still.

 

Please kindly forgive any limitations in the expression / words

used.

 

Vineet Sarvottam

--------------------------

 

Hari Om

 

How to know what is beyond knowledge - is the moot question.

 

Logic/Rationale !! Proof !!! Sample !! Consider the following:

 

1 .Whatever we are able to see on this earth there is always a

creator /manufacturer - be it an allpin, pen, table, house, machine,

house, bed, watch, pen, paper, cloth or aircraft. Anything visible.

Then there should be creator of oceans, fire, air, mountains, earth,

Sun. Moon, stars also !

 

God is the creator of all. - CREATOR

 

2. Whatever thing which moves , be it car, aircraft, bicycle,

machine, computer, - there is always a controller thereof. Earth

also moves. Sun/Moon also move. Oceans remain in their limits. Sun

rises and sets perfectly without fail. There must be a controller of

them also!

 

God is the controller of all- CONTROLLER

 

Q BUT A HUMAN BEING ALSO CREATES ! WHAT IS SO IMPORTANT ABOUT IT ?

 

Ans A human being cannot " create " anything! It is only " nature "

which creates! You can only change the shape thereof. You can covert

gold into ornaments or iron into sword or utensil, but you can't

create gold or iron ! Only nature provides that. You can mix two or

more elements, formulate, change shape only. You can create . You

can " discover " only.

 

To be continued.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

-------------------------

Kindly read bertrand russel

Aranha Roy

 

---------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

Let us continue further on the subject and build on what sadhakas

have said.

Please, it may sound too intellectual, but it is not! It may humble

us!

Consider this: If we need to know/study any object, the object has

to exist in

the first place.

Even if we cannot know the object, we always know it exists. This

knowing of an

existence is prior to the knowledge of its nature, attributes,

function etc.

The Universe is a collection of objects, and can be said to be one

Existence

fundamentally. Individual objects within it are individual

existences localized

in space and time over which they exist, and change to other forms,

continuing

the existences.

When we say Universe we mean the Existence only. Even the word

Universe points

to the Existence first. How do we know such Existence itself? Only

by being

aware/cognizant of it, no other way. So the Existence is awareness

of Existence.

To see what is prior to such Existence, there has to be Awareness to

know

whether or not such Existence IS. Thus Awareness as Existence has to

be

beginningless! What is after the Existence, non-existence? no,

because to say

it, there has to be Awareness of non-existence. If there is

Awareness of

non-existence, IS-ness is established. Thus that which IS, the

Existence(without

division into many objects), is eternally free of time and space

containing all

objects(names/forms) in time and space by creating mind and endowing

it with

this ability in terms of thoughts/feelings. Gita in 2:16 says the

real never

ceases to be.

Such Awareful Existence has to be most Powerful, Intelligent,

Beautiful, full of

Love and Blissful which is our experience. Can we not call this God?

God means Such Intelligence as seen through those who serve, and love

unconditionally, those who fight for Dharma, the righteousness, and

those who

preach God's message!

Evil actions come out from not realizing the Truth of Eternal

Oneness, GOD!

Namaskar.............Pratap Bhatt

 

 

 

----------------------------

My answer is simply to a question which has been indirectly

asked: " Why can't I see Him? "

Because He is the Seer. You are what you are looking for. It is

subjective awareness.

The problem lies with the word 'God' because we then suppose a

distinct being like a tribal deity. No, it is Awareness, Supernal-

consciousness. This is the Vedantic way. Find out who you really

are, not how others see you, but from your subjective perspective,

and you'll find what you're looking for.

Rishi Handa

 

----------------------------

Wonderful expression by Pratap (Bhatt) Bhai

 

Further, a simple but serious exercise could help in understanding

this.....

Sarphodji, ask yourself " who is asking these questions? "

" Who wants to know God? " ....and wait for the answer....

see what comes from deep inside.....

 

but you have to have patience.....and keep asking/repeating the

questions....

In fact when you come across any such question, ask yourself

who is this who wants to know this, who is asking the question?....

 

and wait for the answers and experience that follows.......

Best wishes

Sushil Jain

 

--------------------------------

I am a believer of God. Like one person said in the e-mail below, I

went through that 'show me God to believe' stage when I was around

22 years - 26 years. I was God lover before and again lover now. I

do not really know and I do not think with my limited ablity I can

ever know. At the same time I am not blind follower too. I am open

to all these 6 questions coming from a logical person because I had

them before too and have them now too. Before - with doubt, now -

with wonder and amazement.

 

Knowing God is a long journey. I am on the journey, I beleive I am

gradually understanding the divine concept. I am understanding them

through others, specially our ancestors, Indian scriptures. There

are great concepts, ideas and explanations, there are trash also

amongst them. I am amazed at the power of those ideas and

explanations. They attempted volumes and spent 100s of years to find

God and explain the divinity. Can I really understand all this in my

life? I doubt, which is why its a journey for me. Can I see God? It

depends on. I feel divinity in some great people, in their ideas for

humanity - around me.

 

OK, when somebody asks the question 'show me God', what they are

asking us is 'show me Jesus, Show me Shiva or show me Vishnu'. I

doubt if any one has seen God in these forms. Unless the divine

power appears so for any. As for God in its full form - Can I

imagine the distance between the Earth and the nearest star (Alpha

Centauri - about 4 light years away). I cannot imagine that

distance - however logically I think. Can I see God then - which is

full of this universe? Impossible to imagine. Then how can I see

God, unless God willingly appears to me.

 

My dear friend, answers to those 6 questions need volumes of

explanation or simply experiecing of the divine power - depending on

where you stand on the quest for God. Its a journey, so please

discuss with people who have done the research (of your 6 questions

before) and experience the facts yourself. You still go through the

oscillations of belief and disbeliefs, but if your quest is sincere

you will start seeing light at the end of tunnel.

 

The above does not give straight answers to even one of your

questions. So thanks for your time, if at all you read through this

until now.

 

Venu Gopal

--------------------------------

 

 

PRIOR POSTING

I will come at these questions in a hard nosed manner, maybe I am

blessed as I too waved aside religions when younger but traveled full

circle to The Beloved, who I dearly love with my absolute being.

 

Question 6: There has to be some basis for his existence? What are

the logics which point towards the existence of God? From where to

pick the thread?

O.K. I would ask the skeptical young, (I will call him S. ), tell me

S. how did this Godless Universe begin? He may be a brilliant

physicist, good chance though, regardless S will start to talk about

the 'big bang', the question would then be, o.k. S. was there

substance, was there energy, and was there time, before the 'Event'?

I would ask S. also when this energy of the bang runs out what

then?, I would press the point home that the Great Indians

Traditions had a good explanation for all this many millennium

before the present time, and is probably a good guide for the

scientists. Oh! I would ask my young friend S. where did the laws of

physics come from? Apparently they are unique, the laws had to be

spot on for there to be an existance, that is what the physicist

seem to be saying.

 

I would ask S. one other thing, how is it possible for a spider to

build the perfect web according to its kind, without actually being

taught.

 

I would say to S., think about it, think about it, be tenacious, be

mercilessness, and be brave, let your desire for the truth take you

where it will, just hang in there! S. my friend I was once like you,

maybe one day we can really talk.

 

With Respect and Divine Love,

 

Mike Keenor

------------------------

 

Dear Sadak,

 

1. Where is God I have never seen Him?EXAMPLES Most children know

water is H2O (Hydrogen 2 parts and Oxygen 1 part) ask them them to

show hydrogen and oxygen showing water. Next show them Yogurt (Curd)

and ask them to show milk. Bigger children ask them to show planets.

Then tell then from Sanskrit slokas-- " God is apprameyam " that which

cannot be seen or known by senses as in case of above examples, as

God can be only known by Gyana (knowledge)

2. Who has seen Him? Like in case of scientist tell as per above

examples, so does Saints tell. Only a saint (Guru) can show God as

shown to Vivekananda by Swamy Ramakrishna

3. How is He? Slokas say: Aroopamai, Aksharamai. Roopam, Akandamai,

Viratroopamai Etc. No definite shape as HE appears in the form that

the devotee wants. HE is in sounds - Om, HE is like Sri Krishna/Sri

Rama Etc, Omnipresent (That cosmic energy filled in everything), HE

is in all shapes and forms.

4. If I dont know how do I accept? Contemplate. If you accept that

there is Galaxies then contemplate what energy is performing whole

universe, like in the case of any toy needs battery, car need petrol

or fuel, computer need electricity etc. Still do not want to accept-

Leave it.

 

Jai Sri Krishna

 

baiya sathyanarayan

-----------------------------

 

All questions arise out of answers. When one asks a question

either he needs a confirmation of the answer which he already has

or he is answering his own question. When somebody is asking a

question relating to God, first he has to explain what is in his

mind when he says or thinks of GOD.

 

Einstein said that the world is an optical illusion. We think and

feel that we are separated from the rest. This is an optical

illusion. We have no direct contact with the outside world. All

the sensorial data has to filter through our optical nerve and our

mind (delusion). So we have no idea of what is exactly out there.

When one realizes this he comes closer to God or some superior

knowledge.

 

To realise that we are the debris of God is the supreme

realisation.

 

The most mysterious thing holds the most important key. Death is

the most mysterious thing. Death holds the most important key.

 

When death happens. The soul/consciousness releases out of the

cage (body � which is always subjected to three dimensional view

and

linear concept of time and space), one will realize or merge with

God

 

H. Subair

 

 

------------------------------

dear pratapji,thank u for giving us such wonderful knowledge.person

like you are really god's gift to us.

bhargav mehta

------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Re: Does God (Paramatma) Exist? Where is the Proof? What

is the logic ?

 

Through that supreme devotion he comes to know Me in reality, what

and how great I am; and thereby knowing Me in essence he forthwith

enters into My being.

 

Gita - Chapter 18 Sloka : 55

 

Sundara Raghavendran

---------------------------

 

Deaar Sadhakas, Namaste!

When someone says " where is God? I have never seen Him " , that person

has to know what God is that he expect to see, otherwise he cannot

ask the question. The question comes from the implicit assumption

that God is some imagination, ideas, knowledge, belief, etc. in the

mind and what I see out there is definitely not " God " .

So it is better to rephrase the question back to What God is first.

When that is understood, all questions by Tabalchiji will get

answered.

Consider the following dialogue:

Q: Do you have a doubt about your own existence?

A: No, I know I exist beyond a shadow of doubt. It is so obvious to

me!

Q: How do you know you exist?

A: I don't know HOW, but I am sure I DO!

Q: Do you need any help of another person, scripture, or some

logical explanation to confirm you do exist?

A: Definitely not, even if they say I don't exist, I know I do,

because it is experiential within me now. I don't even need any

sense organs-mind-intellect to tell me I exist!

 

So, it is self-evident existence, of " beingness " we all feel within

us, and by which we know what is knowable in this world as objects

of knowledge. This experience of Being Conscious is always with us,

never are we away from IT, not even in our sleep when body-mind-

world are all gone no one knows where! But I am always!

I just have to find out that ultimately this " I " is Impersonal and

is of the nature of Existence-Consciousness which we call God!

Personal God of Bhakta appears in this Impersonal!

Based on this, I can conclude that God is not a particular object

among many objects we know through sense organs, mind and intellect.

It is THE UNIQUE and objectless EXPERIENCE!

It is like our eyes who cannot see themselves and yet know their

existence beyond any shadow of doubt because SEEING takes place

automatically by just Being.

Once it is grasped, it can lead to God Realization!

Namaskar...

 

Pratap Bhatt

 

-------------------------------

 

My dear Sarphod,

There is a very beautiful story from ancient times that I have

heard from my guru. Once, a king called his minister and said, " I

want you to answer two questions.....otherwise your position will be

at stake.....first, can you show me God. Secondly, what is God

doing right now?

The minister was in anxiety. He went home, began searching

through various scriptures....wondering if he would have a job the

next day. His small son approached him, and noticing his father's

perplexity, inquired, " What troubles you, father? " The father

responded, " Oh, this is not something you would understand. " At

the child's persistence, the father finally explained. The small

child smiled, and simply said, " Father, that is so easy to

answer.....just tell the king that even a small child can answer

these inquiries, and I will then give him my responses " .

The father had no choice, as he didn't know the way to

respond. So, when the child came before the king, he requested the

king, " First, please have a pot of milk brought forth. " The king did

so. Then the child inquired, " Is there ghee in this milk? " The

king said, " Yes, it is there. " Then the child explained, " It is

there, but you cannot see it. Why can you not see the ghee? " The

king said, " There is a process by which the ghee will be brought

forth, of course, first one must churn the milk into butter, then

the butter is slowly heated until the ghee rises to the

surface......only after one patiently follows this process will he

see the ghee. " As the king was speaking, slowly realization came

into his heart, that similarly, one cannot demand to see God at this

moment....there is a process. One who's heart is not pure, who

does not have love and devotion, cannot see the Lord, but He will

certainly reveal Himself to those who are willing to accept the

process of " bringing forth the ghee " .

The child then said, " You are asking me what God is doing.

That is putting me in the postion of teacher, and you as disciple.

So, is it appropriate for you to be sitting on your throne, if you

are learning from me? " The wise King immediately pleced the child

on the throne, and sat in front of him, ready to try to understand

his next lesson. " This is what God is doing " ....he said. " He is

taking someone from a low position and putting him into a high

position, according to the results of his work, and taking someone

else from a high position and putting him into a low position. "

The king was very pleased with the child's answers, and rewarded him

and his father.

So, one may say, " I don't accept such simplistic

responses " .....well, then, such a person will never see the Lord,

unless and until he is fortunate enough to get the association of a

sadhu, by whose association one's heart melts. When one truly

comes into contact and develops some sukrti by contact with a God

consscious person, there is no material, anaytical way to explain

what happens. It is beyond our mundane intelligence, our ability to

analyze. So, simply pray for the youth you are hoping to guide,

and gradually perhaps the mercy of the sadhus will come to them.

It is not a mechanical process.

I hope my words have been gentle, encouraging, and helpful.....it

is truly a sadness which we all share as parents if our children

become somewhat agnostic or doubtful of the underestanding of the

Lord's presence, and the need for ancient, eternal tradition. We

can only pray to be the best examples of loving, patient friends for

them that we can possibly be.

 

respectfully,

Mahalaksmi Dasi

 

-------------------------------

Sarphod,

 

Read Paramahansa Yogananda's book " the Autoibgraphy of a Yogi "

published by Self Realization Fellowship, Los Angeles, CA.

 

Haley H. Haynes

--------------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

In this posting I would like to build on my previous post.

We as parents must deeply understand the truth of who we are, what

is the nature of world and God first. Then only we can explain to

our children. I would shy away to tell children that because it is

said in our scriptures, you have to believe in God being such and

such.

 

We can begin on the path of knowledge with the premise. That which

always IS irrespective of time, location or cause, is Truth. Truth,

thus, cannot be denied and has to be our continuous experience

always, not some states we experience that come and go, rather That

in which all states of experiences happen.

 

In the beginning it may sound like intellectual, but understanding

of that which always IS, has to be our real nature, or Reality of

whatever we all seem to experience dawns on us sooner rather than

later. What is Reality, then?

If we continue to inquire, we may find that whether I am in joyful,

or painful or sad or indifference or even in depressed

situations, " I am " always present and " knowingness " of these various

situations I am in is also always present too, which I never notice

due to my attachments/aversions to situations. These situations

eventually disappear but not " I " .

What is the nature of this I that we all say I when referring to

ourselves? Whatever it is, for sure it IS! This ISNESS-I is the most

certain experience and is Truth. Even if I see illusion, I or seeing

is the truth. This seeing then is communicated as I see an object(or

hear, taste, smell, touch, think, feel etc). I and seeing is

synanymous as consciousness.

 

Now extend this to outer world. Regardless of objects we perceive

out there, Being Conscious of them is the only truth of our

experience. Thus, alleged external world is nothing but ONE

Undivided/Whole Existence/Consciousness(Absolute) in our experience.

Mind is given to us to divide the Existence into different objects

for practical and Divine play. When we come to this understanding,

our attitude towards world changes to one of dispassion, devotion

and to serve it as God, in whatever ways we can. We see God

everywhere our eyes fall upon!

This is God relization.

Namaskar.............Pratap Bhatt

 

GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES:

1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify their doubts

related to Gitaji shlokas. Therefore, responses which further

clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be posted.

2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to

substantiate your response.

3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the

extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas

4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting

sadhaka's time.

5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only.

6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other

organizations.

7. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone

number, address etc.

8. Please do not address the response to a particular individual

since the message is going to the entire group.

9. Due to the large readership, all responses may not be posted.

10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if content

is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the group.

11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth,

westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use to Sanskrit

words only, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit bracketed

wherever possible.

 

MODERATOR

Ram Ram

------------------------

 

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Posted
Posted

My question is that how to prove that there exists a super natural

power called " God " ? At least how to explain that. How to correlate

His existence with the character of the world? Children now a days

need more than belief to accept. Can there be any way vide which we

can establish that God exists. If some body says say :

1. Where is God I have never seen Him?

2. Who has seen Him?

3. How is He?

4. If I dont know how do I accept?

5. God is a term coined by elders to put moral shackles over us so

that we may indulge in goodness.

6. There has to be some basis for his existence? What are the logics

which point towards the existence of God? From where to pick the

thread?

 

Sarphod Tabalchi

 

 

NEW POSTING

 

Jai Hanuman

 

I agree entirely with Usha Sridhar. Dear Sister! Keep writing

regularly . You are precise, accurate and perfect. So is Sister

Anita- absolutely correct and " really " .practical and therefore on

the path of Gita 7:19 ! Welcome Brother Wilson ! Welcome Ram Bhai !

O Daddy the Great ! Let such " Divinity " continue flowing unto this

GT Group ! So Pleasing ! So unbelievable !! So many reasons to

exclaim with pleasure- " Brilliant " !

 

Thanks Sarphod ! How is your Begum Sahibaa ! It is a sin to make her

cry- Get me ? SIN - I say! Do you understand what is sin? " Anguish

of your soul " is most of the times " your sin " - also ! Almost

Always!

 

Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj would often say that what is the proof

that Mr X is your father - BASED ON YOUR PERSONAL/ INDIVIDUAL/

REMEMBERED/EXPERIENTIAL- " KNOWLEDGE " ?

 

No body, come what may, has been able to " prove " in the past, nor

can they do so in the present , nor will they be able to " prove "

that in the future ! Nor can there be any possibility of proving

that. If you can't " prove " the existence of your even this father on

earth, how can you prove the existence of your " eternal father " ?

 

Reason: " Self " Proven ! Obvious !! Beyond Mind/ Intellect/Ego !

 

" Acceptance " / " Faith " / " Belief " - is the only remedy. If some body

wants to argue on this - Come On !! Hats off to you Brother

Wilson !! Please keep contributing and participating in this

Satsanga forum!

 

Mike Bhaiyya ! I gleefully noted three things in your latest

message -

 

1 An Aussie !

2 Clever 'little' dialogue!! ( Jeeva -Maya - Jagdish. Maya is in the

center. Noted that Brother? Between the two ! )

 

Above all -

 

3 Flowers in the Sky !!!!

 

(What an effort by You? What a research ! How well read , indeed !

So difficult! Yet so obvious ! So handy ! So quick - within hours of

posting the 'little dialogue' ! So Self Proven ! So inaccessible !

Yet so easily available !

 

But available in the universe to whom ? Available why ? How timely

and exactly ?

 

Sure, the poem was already existing in this creation / uiniverse for

a long long time- it was not Mike Keenor made- but what about its

manifestation !! )

 

Thanks indeed ! Unbelievable! " DIVINE " !! Do you get us Mr

Sarphod? - We are Sadhaks ! Only " Sadhaks " !

 

Namaste Jee

Jee Jee

Shashikala

---

 

Dear Vyasji,

 

You have answered beautifully. But, the problem is that Tabalchi ji

is more interested in getting 'brilliant' and similar appreciatory

comments from others (as is evident from his second mail).

 

Before trying to know God (Where is God I have never seen Him? is

Tabalchi ji's first question), he should explain what he is. If he

knows about himself, then he will see God's smiling face. Again, the

problem is that Tabalchiji is depending on others even to know " ko

aham (who am I) "

 

May I quote from Shankara ? " KASHTWAM KOHAM KUTAH AAYAATAH, KA ME

JANANI KO ME TATAH " (who are you, who am I, from where have I come,

who is my mother and who is my father).

 

Kind regards,

Suresh C Sharma

 

PRIOR POSTING

Hari Om

 

One who has thirst inside, only can see water. If there is no

thirst, inspite of water being in your front, it is not noticed by

you. Similarly , one who has thirst for God only can " see " God, and

one who has thirst for world only, " sees " the world.

 

It is your desire which in fact determines what you can or can not

see- IRRESPECTIVE OF WHAT IN FACT EXIST OR DOES NOT EXIST.

 

Because of your desire for the world only you see the world which in

reality NEVER EXISTS. Because of your non-desire only you can not

see God who in reality ALWAYS EXISTS !!

 

Want to see God? Mr Sarphod? Develop desire for Him !!

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

----------------------------

 

Dear members,

 

This is the first time I am writing on this forum - not because I

didnt wish to comment earIier, but only because I am too young in

this stage - by experience and by learning.

However, looking at the questions raised below, I thought I should

at least share my feelings:

 

1.God is no external being - he or she is part of each one of us -

all living beings. So please, do not try to explain to children that

god is some type of other person. And therefore, each one of us has

the responsibility to lead a life which moves towards positivity,

looking at betterment, and not hurting people, beings by our act.

 

Seeing GOD - we all have. Only some have realised him. He is in my

maid who comes to work each morning, he is in my child - who hugs me

every time I meet him, he is in my husband - who lives with me and

has made my life complete. I have seen him in the rickshaw walla -

who stopped by me to offer me ride to office yesterday. I see him

every day in different forms - sometimes, I too do not realise that

it was him who smiled in the morning and made my day. Everytime you

meet a person who does good to you - he or she is a reflection of

GOD. So, see god in all and see all in him.

2.The world is like stage (as Shakespears has said) - and all of us

are in here to play a role - be it tree, human, animal, you and me.

And so is a child here to play a role. All our roles are defined by

this supreme power, whom we call GOD.

 

3. There are many happenings in our life which we humans are not

able to explain - all this we credit to that UnKnowable

force/energy - GOD.

 

Try to see GOD in your family - your parents, your collegues, your

neighbours, and all the people whom you meet - search for that light

in them and do a small good act to make them happy. GOD would be

there with you!

 

Anita Sharma

-------------------------

Maybe my use of the word brilliant, can be misconstrued,a little too

Aussie, it was intended as a exclamation of pleasure.

 

I know you are playing the roll of 'devils advocate', as clearly you

would understand, Maya and Jeeva in Jee Jee Shashikalaji's clever

little dialog.

 

Best to direct a single question to a Sadhak/Sadhaks.

 

 

See Zen poem below:(Emptiness in full Bloom).

 

 

Leaping from the Ledge of Infinite Regress,

The Unmoved Mover fell into Formlessness:

Pure silence echoed between the galaxies,

Eons of eons vanished in a second,

Withered trees bloomed in fires,

Polar mountains melted, rivers went dry,

Thusness scattered in sixty directions,

Space became Time, time became things,

Black Holes filled with Nirvana,

A billion samadhi mirrors shattered,

Galaxies snuggled within a single skull,

Many became One, One only, only One.

Then, the Divine Illuminatrix in All Beings

Opened Her clouded Eye, to see:

Flowers in the Sky.

 

With Respect and Divine Love,

 

Mike Keenor

 

--------------------------

Hari Om.

 

Respected sir,

I've studied from my childhood that mother

is our first GOd.

We can see God only through our mother,father and Guru.

Where is the proof that you came through your mother's womb?

If you can explain how you passed through your mother with proof,

I can explain with Krushna's Grace the true Krushna provided you

have the permission to see Krushna.

Rest in my next.

Hari Om.

With Regards,

Ushasridhar.

 

--------------------------

 

Jesus Says.

I am the way, I am the Truth, I am the Faith. Please read the Bible.

thanks

Wilson Kochukunju

 

 

Dear Mr. Sarfod & friends,

 

Since the beginning of human civilization, the question whether

there is a God (or Gods), has occupied the human mind. It has also

been answered by various people in various ways in all the ages.

But, the question has persisted till this day.

 

I have my own explanation. I emphatically say that Parmatma does

exist. The entire universe is within Him and He is also beyond the

Universe. He is so great and also so small that nobody can see Him

with his naked eye. He can only be realized. Regarding proof, every

living being and every plant testifies His existence. With his super-

intelligence, man has been able to do most amazing things and

created wonders. But, man is still way behind in creating anything

that is self generating. Every creation of God, on the other hand,

is self-generating and self sustaining. Reproduction is a special

feature of every species. Yet, every species has a life-time after

which it vanishes. Even this earth will meet its death some day. We

see planets and stars dying and new ones coming up every day. This

never ending cyclic order of creation, recreation, assimilation and

re-emergence is a glaring proof of His existence.

 

Yours sincerely,

Ram Bhai

------------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

Varunji, I want to thank you so much for speaking out to Tabalchiji

about I being not judgemental at all. As a friend and a fellow

seeker, I was suggesting, Tabalchiji to read as many times as needed

to grasp the meaning or at least ask questions to clarify points.

Most of us know that when we read or hear 2nd or 3rd time it makes

so much difference in our understanding!

I want to wish you the very best Tabalchiji. One day you may wake up

and find all answers about Truth of God, this world and " you " .

All sadhakas have provided excellent answers/pointers!

Wishing you the best of Xmas Holidays and New Year, my fellow

sadhaks, I remain prayerful!

Namaskar......Pratap Bhatt

 

 

 

 

-------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

-Shree Hari-

 

Sarphodji,

 

You know; the world as you see it, is a shadow of what it really is,

I once heard it described as seeing the reflections of reality on the

back of a cave wall, one has to turn around to see the glory of what

it is.

Most people it seems, focus their whole lives looking at the false

reality reflected on the wall of the cave.

Have we not all read about Yogis with extraordinary abilities? Is

this all lies, do such souls look on the doubters such as yourself,

say nothing, smile or laugh as Lord Krishna laughed, they have

nothing to prove , all the doubters have to do is turn around as it

were, to understand.

 

One great soul that I admire was Swami Vivekananda, to me he seems to

be a man ahead of his time, a person of great intellect, and a

spiritual giant. It was he that aroused the world to the wealth that

India had to give.

 

11th September, 1893: 'Response to welcome' address:

 

" Swami Vivekananda addressed the august assembly of seven thousand

people starting with the words: " Sisters and Brothers of America... " ,

and the whole of audience went into inexplicable rapture with

standing

ovation and clapping that lasted for more than three minutes....... "

 

If you consider you have a mind of sound reasoning, then maybe you

could read the yoga aphorisms, translated by that great Swami. (If

you require any translation).

 

Why does your Lady weep, is it because she sees the anguish of your

soul. No matter what you may say or truly think, you are in conflict,

do you understand ? Jee Jee Shashikalaji has hinted at it, other

Sadhaks have made the point also, things like why ask about that

which

does not exist etc.

Sadhaks have implied that they have been through that battle. I

have,

I will tell you this, how much you reach for Father, how much you cry

for him, the tears of anguish will then turn to tears of joy, when

your heart breaks loose from prison that binds it.

 

You may not understand what I am writing about, but one day you will.

 

With Respect and Divine Love,

 

Mike Keenor

-----------------------------

Dear Sadaks,

I have not seen God yet. That is the reason I am not silent. The one

who has seen God remains silent. Let us not make tell Mr.Sherphod

Vedanta/Upanashids.

1.Where is God I have never seen Him? To see a program on TV, one

needs TV Equipment, Power (electricity), and telecasting tower

2. Who has seen Him? One who has turned his body equipment as a

temple, Power of tuning (Craving to liberate) in mind, as mind has

electricity, magnatism, and telecasting tower (GOD) omnipresent.

Just one has to tune to HIS frequency that is surrender.

3. How is He? HE is benevolent to come in any form you meditate.

4. If I dont know how do I accept? Go on saying any name of HIS.

Eventually HE will tune to your frequency as HE did to Druva.

Jai Sri Krishna

baiya sathyanarayan

----------------------------

 

Dear Sirphod

 

I made a posting on your question. There was no attempt by me or for

that matter by any body (from the posts I see) who could give you

answers like you might be expected.

 

If you want to learn about God (accept or otherwise is a different

issue) you need to spend time and energy. You can select a Guru who

can help you. I do not see from your postings you have this

expectation, but the one below.

 

But if your goal is to dispute existence of God, there could be

anohter forum that must be working on such attempts.

 

By the way you can come out with your real name.

 

Venu Komanduri

 

 

PRIOR POSTING

 

Hi Sarphod Tabalchi,

1. Where is God I have never seen Him?

It seems you never tried to see God. Seeing God is not possible by

our physical eye. Those who have an insight of God only can see God.

If you try sincerely seeing God is would not be a problem. There are

many ways prescribed in our scriptures. First, Have faith in it.

Then after you never deny God.

2. Who has seen Him?

I see Him always and communicate with Him. Not only with God, I talk

to birds and animals. I can understand them and they understand me.

3. How is He?

He is always Happy. He never deny anything. He never denied my

existence. He wants everyone happy.

4. If I dont know how do I accept?

Dont reejct anything. Accept everything as it is. Never expect

anything in your way accept everything as it is. Keep God in your

mind if you dont know God. Chant Oh God Oh God Oh my God whenever

you want deny God.

5. God is a term coined by elders to put moral shackles over us so

that we may indulge in goodness.

If you know this much of God you should not deny God.

6. There has to be some basis for his existence? What are the logics

which point towards the existence of God? From where to pick the

thread?

First you ask your Parents who are patient to teach you the basic

concept of God existence. Once you have prerequesites to learn God

God comes to you automatically. Be Patient. Can you ever see the

electricity passing through a wire. A bulb is shining, Have you ever

enquired about the electricity which illumines the bulb? Think about

TV., Fridge, Air Conditioner etc., etc. whcih can not function

without electricity. Even you can not ask these questions without

that power unseen in you. My dear beleive in God is far easier than

denying God.

Lovingly, Krishna (Shobha) Das

 

------------------------

Wonderful testing of sadhaks by Tabalchi ji

We all must thank him for the excellent questions and for giving an

opportunity to better our understanding in the spiritual domain.

 

All questions have very easy answers. Excellent expression by all

sadhaks...in answering these.

 

But it is very difficult to satisfy the questioner on the answers.

since these very questions cloud everything....and become obstacles

to understanding the truth

since it is about knowing the questioner first............knowing or

seeing God comes much later.....

 

It has happened to perhaps all of us in the beginning and we may

have gone through this period.

But if we are able to contemplate on the questions with some

guidance, question begin to dissolve/disappear........and the

answers start looking meaningful........

 

So, Tabalchi ji and the begum sahiba could start with contemplating

exercise on the questions first

for example:

 

Q1 Where is God? ----contemplate on......where it should be? what

could be the place where it could be,

why it can not be hear with us?

Q2 Does God exist? ---- Contemplate on.....Who am I? ask yourself

repeatedly who am I?

Q3 Who has seen him is irrelevant? My seeing is important so

contemplate on questions - Why I don't see the God? Can I see it?

What could it look like? What should it be?

Q4 If I don't know how do I accept? Contemplate on What I don't

know? Do I know all? How can I know more?

Q5 Any other word other than God could be used for it. Contemplate

on: Is goodness gives happiness? Are moral values important? Why

we need to fear the word God to be good?

Q6 Contemplate on questions: What is basis of its existence? What

is the basis of our existence? What God must exist? Why prophets

have to come to this world? Who are these prophets?

 

See what comes as answers. It is a good learning

exercise......answers are within and we must practice to start

listening.....everyone has to do this for himself..............best

wishes......Thank you....

Sushil Jain

 

----------------------------

Dear Sarphod:

 

I have similar questions that you have.

 

Following is the status of those questions (mind you not answers):

 

1. Just beacuse I can not see GOD, that does not mean that there is

nothing like GOD which exists, since there are so many things that

exist and yet I can not see (ex: Air, Gases and so many unknowns to

mankind yet)

 

2. Same way as I have the question on the existence of GOD, I also

have the question on my question itself, i.e. I can not prove that

there is no GOD either.

 

3. Say suppose some one suddenly shows me the GOD, what are my tests

and verifications to accept him/her/it as GOD. Do I have all those

tools, a big NO (I am not sure about you)

 

4. Even if I have all those tools to test the existence of GOD and

all the tests are proved positive, then is it going to help me. That

means, do I have the right objective to find out this very unusual

thing called GOD? What is that single biggest thing that is

bothering me about finding out this GOD? Does it have the

seriousness to find out the GOD? If it does all the above questions

should be answerd positively. Or else, I am not sincere in my quest.

 

5. I might not have all these tools right now, yet I have the quest

to know about the existence of GOD, then I do not jump in to quick

conclusions like " There is no GOD, this forum is not DIVINE, etc., "

because that conclusion neither helps me nor taps in to the right

sources of knowledge. I will be just fooling myself saying " I asked

a question which this forum is not able to answer "

 

Just for the record, I remember in the whole known history of

mankind, only one person (Sri Ramakrishna Paramahansa) has admitted

to have seen GOD and was ready to show GOD to the one who was

earnestly with deepest intellectual anxiety and sincerity (Swami

Vivekananda).

 

The one who has shown and the one who was shown the GOD did not have

questions. The SOURCE and the SINK are in the perfect state of mind,

one to give and the other to receive. Am I in the equanimity levels

of Swami Vivekananda? I don't think I am and let me know if you are.

 

If you think you are, just stay there with sincere hope, A

RAMAKRISHNA will happen to you and your intellectual quest might be

fulfilled.

 

If not I need to get there before I start looking for GOD. Till such

time, GOD is tentative truth for me.

 

With a hope it might help you,

Sincerely,

Krishna (devangam krishnamurthy)

 

Hare Krishna

 

Sarphod, you have praised me by saying " I am very good " . FYI! I was

not entertaining you but I was questioning YOUR very existence. You

don't have any doubt in your existence still you cannot prove it.

Why so?? Have you thought over it?? If you can prove it (with your

logic/rationale) then why don't you do it?

 

Mikeji called you brilliant (I wonder why) but he has also called

you inflexible. But I think you have not noted that. He, Vyasji,

Pratapji and others have also given many points. You should think

over it, compare it with your logic and then prove it wrong. But for

this one need guts, because you will have to keep aside your

prejudices to think over others' points. Even if you are not able to

prove us wrong it does not mean that we can make you accept God, we

can only give logics/rationale.

 

No one can force anyone to accept God, especially those who do not

respect their father. If you cannot respect your father than how can

you accept and respect the biggest father (Param-Pita

Parmeshwar).Your father has deserted you and your wife also seems to

be upset with your adamant attitude, but you still don't have any

shame in admitting it. Rather than introspecting over your attitude

you are defending it.

 

Pratapji has not passed any judgment; it is you who is passing

judgments. Mike is best, Varun is very good, Vyas NB is making me

think. If these are not judgements then what is it? Pratapji has

correctly pointed out that you are not reading posts with an open

mind.

 

You have posted these questions only because your wife has directed

you to this group. This is the biggest problem because you are not

interested in knowing or learning anything, you are only asking

these questions just for the sake of it, just for a mere formality.

 

Mrs. Sarphod, please don't insist your husband to post questions. He

is only wasting our time and also don't reveal him anything about

Gita, because if you do so you will unnecessarily incur sin (Gita

18.67)

 

You cannot see God or feel His presence but you definitely feel your

existence as " I AM " , right? Then why can't you prove it with your

logic. I have asked 3 questions w.r.t. your existence but did not

get any reply.

 

Hare Krishna

Varun P. Paprunia

---------------------

 

Jai Hanuman

 

Mr Sarphod ! So you do not think or talk or desire regarding "

flower of sky " - because it does not exist. You yourself said that.

You can think/desire/talk about only that thing which exists.

 

Now this is the biggest proof. You thought about God. You talked

about God. You desired to know about God. You raised questions in

this forum about God. How can you do that- if God does not exist?

 

If you can do that then why did you not talk about " flower of sky " ?

As a law you can desire about only that thing which exists.

 

Answer now! To the point only. ONLY to the point.

 

You said yourself that you would believe in your parents even if

they were dead immediately after your birth, because there is a

basis. The presence of yourself itself is an indicator of their

existence. True. Now go backwards. Presence of your parents means

your grand parents were there. Go backwards and keep going. In the

end you will find one male and one female. Who were their parents?

 

God is " Param Pita " - our eternal father.

 

Clear?

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

 

 

 

----------------------

Hari Om

 

You wanted as to what is sample of God. Answer as given by Varunji

is correct. You , yourself, are " sample " of God ! Because like God,

you are also permanent and faultless. Everybody " experiences " that -

I EXIST. ( You talked about experiencing- I am talking about

experience only) . Do you have any doubt Mr Sarphod that you are not

existing ? You never have any doubt on this. You never conduct any

test to determine whether you exist or not. You never

experience/feel that - I DID NOT EXIST. About past you may say

that " I don't know " , but you can't say " I didn't exist " ! How can

you say so?

 

Why can't you say? Because you have never perceived your " self " to

be non existing. Non existence of your " self " has never come into

your experience. Even in respect of the daily occuring of deep

sleep, your experience never suggests that at that time you were non

existent. But at the same time you experience directly the

absence of ego, intellect, mind and body etc., in the deep sleep.

 

So you exist.

So He exists.

 

Now you are constantly experiencing changes/temporariness in your

body. Who can experience that? Only that element (Self) which is

permanent and changeless and who is looking separately can

experience so..

 

So you are permanent. You are witness. You are changeless. You are

not body. You exist both with or without body. You exist.

 

Similarly God is also permanent. God is also witness. God is also

changeless. God exists both with or without body. God exists.

 

So you exist. At present you are existing Mr Sarphod Now in your

body. In which part of the body you are existing Mr Sarphod? In

which part of the body you are not existing Mr Sarphod? In fact you

are existing everywhere in the body.

 

God exists everywhere in the universe as you exist everywhere in

the body.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

------------------------------

By summery of GITA: " Tat Twam Asi " or 'That You Are'

This logic is explained by Many in different way, as Jesus : " Keep

your self as pure as a Temple, so that GOD can reside in you "

As the world today is more scientific, we require proof by our

Senses.

No machine can prove Logic.

By psychologist EEG machine shows that Yog has a point when we gain

energy from vast outer energy when we Join our inner energy during a

meditative state.

Todays scientific terms were not expressed before. So we can say

positive Energy in us and arround is GOD.

This GOD creates and increases, but the negative energy will grow

only to destroy and eliminate named 'devil' !

The different State of Mind or Self is depicted in the Epics of

Ramayana and Mahabharata by the characters playing in the theatre of

this World.

The Conditions of Heaven and Hell are also due to this state of self.

 

'Tat Twam Asi' in definition of GOD as 'Bramah-Vishnu-Maheshwar' is

also what we see in us.

Psychological mind as Male-Female has in us as a Child, Learning and

Creating with help of 'Sarswati-Bramah'. Then as we are in our

Youth, we Earn and Run our life with the help of 'Laxmi-Vishnu'. At

the end of life our Old age, Eliminate and Destroy many beliefs with

the help of 'Shakti-Shiv'. Thus we prepare our self for the next

birth. The Energy, called 'spirit' by many, is indistructible and

change form. We can ralise it and can even see as Vivekananda(non

believer of statue) was shown by Guru Ramakrishna(ardent idol

worshiper). The idol is the Mirror to see our self !

--

Regards

Swapan PURKAYASTHA

 

 

 

--------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

 

Dear Sarphod:

 

I adore your persistence to what you think is right - that is a good

quality to seek truth. At the same time, I am a bit disappointed in

its lopsidedness! It is not clear what you want, frankly.

 

I have two questions for you: Are you afraid of " God " ? Do you urge

for " God " ?

 

If " YES " to any of these questions, you have a problem. You can't

stick to your current logical conviction. It is obvious that your

current logical conviction irrespective of its self-proclaimed

excellence is JUST NOT DOING ITS JOB :(. Your logical provess can

claim accolades ONLY IF it removes your fears and quench your

desires.

If not removal, at least a nominal reduction in their intensity is

warranted ... if your intellect is working straight.

 

If " NO " to any of these questions, I see a bigger problem. Why are

you confusing yourself with these questions. That " NO " becomes

meaningless just because you are incapable of letting the very

questions go! The very reason you are raising these questions prove

that you are infested either by fear or by desire or by both

regarding " God " . THAT IS EXCELLENT!

 

Then, it is " YOUR " primary responsibility to address the same. As I

mentioned earlier, your current intellect is incapable of helping you

out. Then, you have to make a shift in your thinking to inspect the

ignorance harbored within. Pardon me for calling it ignorance. But,

the fact is ... it is. Inherent fears and desires can never let an

individual happy. They create the turbulence within in terms of

themselves. The existence of miseries is proof enough that we are not

applying our intellect in the right direction. After all, it is

common sense that we do everything ONLY FOR ONE REASON - to be

happy. I am sure you agree with it.

 

The question is are you happy with these questions as such or are you

really interested in a possible solution. If you are happy with these

questions, be happy. You can never get the solution though! If you

really need a solution, QUESTION the very questions. That is the only

way out left for you to be happy. Do you have any other choice? If

you have, please pursue. Being happy is the bottom line of all

actions ... being happy ... being happy but nothing else.

 

Nobody can instruct you what God Is! You have to figure it out

yourself.

 

I don't know who misled you that this or anything specific " is a

devine forum " as if anything else is not! If you seek divinity,

everything is devine. If not, some may claim " divinity " as if the

rest is not. Please do not get trapped into such notions ... if you

really want to seek clarity regarding your question. Question your

questions ... TRUTHFULLY. You will see the end of the tunnel.

 

Again, PLEASE DO NOT EXPECT OR INSIST FOR EXPLICIT INSTRUCTIONS

REGARDING GOD. YOU WILL NOT GET ANY ANSWER ... UNLESSS ... YOU SEE IT

WITHIN YOURSELF! The only suggestion I can make is ... look for IT

within. Because, looking out all these years has seemingly remained

futile! There is no point in digging into others' psyche when mine is

not receptive enough. If I insist to continue, I can guarantee myself

of more confusion to come!! Because ... GOD cannot be held within any

" psyche " as such.

 

Anyway, just few suggestions to think about ... think about it if you

want ... ONLY IF YOU WANT.

 

All The Best.

 

Respects.

 

Naga Narayana

 

 

 

 

PRIOR POSTING

Dear " Sadhaks " (?)

 

Why my simple questions are not getting answered. Shashikalajee

asked me some questions, instead of replying to me. I , upon the

advice of my Begum Saahiba humbly replied to her. Now instead of

responding to me, she has given a conversation between a son and his

mother. My Begum is insisting to me that I should again and again

read that. OK I will do that. But let me answer her another

question. I have not desired to smell " flower of sky " , because it

does not exist. Sometimes I feel that both my Begum Sahibaa and you

Sadhaks have lost mind. What a funny question Shashikalajee has

asked. How can I desire or talk or know about a thing which doesn " t

exist? This is my basic fundamental and solid argument. Vyas N B is

giving indicators which require me to think. I am thinking. But the

best among you is Mike Keenor. He told me to remain solid. He

adviced me to remain tenacious, merciless and hang on. I am hanging

on. But then why Vineet Sarvottam told me lies? Varun Paprunia gave

him a fitting reply. Varun - you are very good. This Pratap Bhatt

is rebuking me. Why? What is my fault. On one hand you are simply

giving me round round answers. On other hand you are passing

judgement. Is this a conduct of a sadhak. Please reply to me. Or

say - none of you have capacity to answer my simple questions. My

Begum Sahibaa has already started crying. Have mercy on her at

least. But Mike praised me. He called me " brilliant " .

 

Waiting for answers.

 

Sarphod Tabalchi

---------------------------

We all struggle with these questions. The answers I found logical is

this: There is something beyond mind and matter. Some will call that

something Omnipotent, Omniscient, Omnipresent. Others will call it

random nothing. Another question one hears is why do I want to know

That Something. To Know, or to Control it? Here in lies the paradox

and answer: If it is to know only: He is right there with you,

within you: The Life, Love Peace. If it is to control so that we

control our surrounding: That is the struggle of Ego. Arjuna had to

see the Universal form to get over the final hurdle.

Jay Shree Krishna.

 

Hemendra Parikh

-------------------------------

Dear devotees of Lord Krishna,

The discussion is interesting. I learned the gita much better after

seeing the life experience of a realized lady, who had darshan of

Lord Krishna ( first darshan of Lords feet after chanting a sloka

from 10 th chapter of Gita for 30,000 times continuously for 30

days ). Her conversations with the Lord have been recorded in

Tamil, and can be shared with the group if interested.

With kind regards,

Sincerely,

P.Vivekanandan

-------------------------------

 

Try Brahmacharya ( the vow of celibacy in thought, word and deed, by

which one attains Self-realisation or reaches Brahman) and you will

see for yourself the value.

 

The Srutis declare: " Naayam Atma balaheenena labhyah - This Atman is

not attainable by a weak man. " In the Gita you will

find: " Yadichhanto brahmacharyam charanti - That desiring which

Brahmacharya is performed " (Chap. VIII-11). " Trividham narakasyedam

dvaram nasanamatmanah; kamah krodhastatha lobhastasmad etat trayam

tyajet - O Arjuna! Triple is the gate of the hell, destructive of

the Self; lust, wrath and greed: therefore let man renounce these

three " (Chap. XVI-21). " Jahi satrum mahabaho kamarupam durasadam -

Kill this powerful enemy, passion, by the observance of

Brahmacharya " (Chap. III-43).

 

If we are determined to attain the goal of life by leading a pure

life, we must keep this mind busily engaged in Divine thoughts,

concentration, meditation, study and service of humanity.

 

It is difficult to eradicate lust. But you need not despair even a

bit. Have faith in God, in His Name and in His grace. Lust cannot be

completely rooted out of the mind except by the grace of the Lord.

You are bound to succeed if you have faith in Him. The Divine Grace

is needed. God helps those who help themselves.

 

Until man continues to cling to worldliness, Paramatma cannot be

grasped by him.

 

You can read more about this in the " Easy Steps to Yoga " by Sri

Swami Sivananda.

chirag almoula

 

--------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

 

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

Tabalchiji, with all the respect for you and questions, I may point

out that no one can make anyone see anything let alone God if that

person doesn't want to see. It seems like you may be insistent upon

seeing God in the way you want to see.

Please forgive me if I am wrong, but as a friend I am saying. It

seems like you may not have read the postings with open mind, with

the desire to know the truth. Open mind doesn't mean accepting, it

means you must give a fair reading/hearing and then asking pertinent

questions or raise doubts based on what is read. Here your responses

indicate you have decided that God cannot exist for you if you

cannot see or have some logic to prove God's existence. One has to

see that " seeing God " means deep understanding of intuitive nature

in this context where mind being limited cannot comprehend. It has

to be prepared to be open. Our conditioned mind is incapable of

grasping truth.

Some of us provided solid logic, but it still fell short to make you

see the pointers.

I said one cannot say " I don't see God " without knowing what God he

is looking that he cannot find. One has to know what one wants to

see, right? One can say " I don't know God, tell me what/where I

should look, and how to recognize " . It is different than show me

God, right?

Once again, God is the Conscious/Intelligent Existence as reflected

in our experience of " I am " right now as you read these words. In

first posting, dialogue was used to illustrate it as a solid proof

one cannot deny.

There are ways to experience God for which senses-mind-intellect is

not capable like they are for knowing objects. Nevertheless, there

is proof of God more reliable than that.

But this point didn't make any impression.

I request you with humility to re-read responses again and see what

happens!

Namaskar..............Pratap Bhatt

-------------------------------

Hare Krishna

 

Okay Mr. Sarphod,

 

Let's put God's existence out of equation for a moment and only

discuss about sample/logics/rationales w.r.t. YOUR existence.

 

I AM

 

Well, you don't have any doubt in your existence, right? Your body

has changed and it is rapidly changing every second. But Mr.

Sarphod, is you also changing with the body? You are certainly not

changing with it because if you were changing then who would have

known the change in body? You are that changeless element who knows

the change in body. Isn't it? Childhood, youth, old age are the

changing phases of the body but you are that changeless element who

is witness to all these changes. It is a law that only a changeless

element can perceive the ever-changing element. My question - What

is the basis of your never-changing existence? If you consider

body's existence as your existence then you are defying all logic,

because body is changing every second!!!

 

I and MINE

 

It is a law that whatever is mine, it is never I. For example you

consider your house, car, wife, children etc. as mine but you never

consider them as I. But in the case of body you say 'my hands, my

legs, my stomach, my ears, my eyes, my throat etc.' and

simultaneously you also consider it as 'I' e.g. I am not feeling

well. You establish two transversal relationships with the body,

that of 'I' and 'MINE'. Whichever thing is mine it is always apart

(separate) from you, and that thing which is separate from you, how

can it be I? This body is also apart from you but still you call it

as I. Is this logical?

 

Mr. Sarphod, now I wish to see you. Can you show me yourself???

Ohh... please don't show me that body which you claim it as mine. I

want to see that Mr. Sarphod who claims the body as mine. In other

words, I want to see that element which you refer to as I?

 

Before that I am eager to know whether you have ever seen yourself.

According to you anything that exists is perceptible. So Mr.

Sarphod, with which instrument have you seen yourself?

 

If you have not seen yourself then, well ..... do you exist ?????

 

And at last one more question- Whose name is Sarphod - body or

yourself?

 

Mr. Sarphod, with your logics/samples/rationales etc., first prove

 

1. Your existence.

2. The basis of your existence.

3. The instrument with which you have seen/felt your existence.

 

Then we will also discuss about God's existence....

 

As Sarphodji is contemplating over his existence, in the mean time,

those sadhaks whose faith in God has dwindled with his questions,

they are requested to read this Sadhaka posting

sadhaka/message/2108

 

Hare Krishna

Varun P. Paprunia

-------------------------------

 

Jai Hanuman

 

(Shrimad Bhagvad Geeta- Marathi Edition- By Saint Gyaaneshwarji-

Chapter 13- Kalyaan- By Narainduttji Gaur )

 

Jeeva ( J) (We all- as referred in BG 15:7) :

 

Mom pls tell me , when I was born?

 

Maya , Mother Nature, Prakrati, Illusion (As referred in BG 7: 13/14)

( M ) :

 

( Irritated) What non sense! Is it some thing to be told? (By a Mom

to Son?)

 

J: If mother doesn't tell, who will?

 

M: How to tell you? I came only after you !

 

J: Typical Mom ! Means- I came first and then you? Surprising? Isn't

it?

 

M: You won't understand. Be silent and sleep!

 

J: Come On ! First me ..! And then You ...!! (How can it be?) Pls

tell me the story ! Please !!

 

M: I told you. You won't understand! Many big people even could not.

 

J: Ok ! Then my Father can let me understand. Take me to Him, please.

 

M: ( Curtly) Stop this song of Father, Father. Your Father is Father

only for the name sake.In fact, I have to do every thing.

 

J: Does He not do anything?

 

M: What can He do? He is old, ancient, poor fellow (eternal) ! Then

totally actionless! Absolutely non-doer! Neither hands, nor legs,

nor eyes, nor ears! Nothing in fact! Look Kid ! Whatever colour ,

form etc of the world which you are seeing is my miracle, my form,

my competence, my work ! Ok? Your Father has neither any form, nor

any beauty. What beauty He can impart to the world?

 

J: But all say that He is the real Creator. See Mom! Whatever is my

Father, He is my Father! Ok? His insult...??

 

M: Insult! What insult? Whose insult? One who does not have any

caste or creed, any family or varna, any city or village- what can

be His respect or disrespect?

 

J: How bad He will feel, if He listens to what you are saying?

 

M: Even if He gets annoyed, what can He do? One who neither moves,

nor walks, nor travels, nor laughs, nor cries, nor speaks, neither

any juice, nor any taste, nor any play !!! This entire

exhibition/show I run, Dear Son !!

 

J But out there on Gate (of the circus) His name is written, O Mom !!

 

M: Ultimately you will take side of your Father only. Afterall you

are His son!

 

J: O Mom of the Universe! Why did not you put name of yours on the

front gate of this Great Circus? ( The world)

 

M: How to put my name. This is the real trgedy. You won't

understand, Son. I, the creator and controller of uncountable

universes can not do any thing by my name!! (Ramcharitmanas- 5/21/4)

 

J: Don't be sad and sorry Mom! What is the matter?

 

M: It is very secret, Son! If by seeing my banner outside the gate,

if somebody wants to meet with me, he will be disappointed. Son!

Please understand my pain. One is lazy ( does nothing), has no

organs, is actionless- those who want to search such (an element)

person , they search Him merely by His name! (Ramcharitmanas-

1/26/2). But to me, even when I am controlling entire sentient and

insentient world, if some body wants to search, CANNOT find! Cannot

search.

 

J: Why not Mom?

 

M: (With tears in her eyes) Because, in reality, I don't exist. I am

false. I am asat. I am non existent. My " not being " is my " being " .

Whatever is not- I am that. I am no-thing.

 

J: And whatever is there, that is who? Who is that?

 

M: He is your Father, Son!

 

J: (In mind, talking with himself only, Son thinks/says - Hats off

to you Mom! When you don't exist, then this is the scene of the

world that even Lord Shiva , Brahma are afraid of you -

Ramcharitmanas 7/71/8- had you existed " actually " Mom then.....)

 

O my No-thing Mom! When you don't even exist , then on whose power

you run this circus called the world?

 

M: What to tell you, Son? I can tell you only this much that, of

Whose a mere flicker of eyebrow, I do rule the uncountable

universes, I can't dare/ don't have courage to face Him. I do run

this circus only on His strength.

 

J : O My Unconquerable Mom! My hundreds of Pranaams to you. Bless

me , O Mom! So that I may get my Father!!

 

While bowing and doing Pranaams to his mother, Jeeva became

tranquilised and then in the background divine music played-

 

" MAAMEVA YA PRAPADYANTE, MAYAMETAM TARANTI YE "

 

(BG 7:14)

 

He was He only!

 

Namaste Jee.

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

-------------------------------

-Shri Hari-

 

My dear Sarphodji,

 

A few points to consider, I have said I have been touched by the

Divine,(just one way of putting it), such Grace is life changing, I

could be lying or be mad,(I tell the truth), but I know just by

reading the things fellow Sadhaks have written that I AM NOT ALONE.

Some people come to Bhagwan with ease and joy others take the path of

fire so to speak, (the hard miles).

 

In the west there is an expression,'The Dark Night of The Soul', and

yes! If it is known in the west it is most absolutely known in the

Indian Traditions.(I think Arjuna's predicament reflects that),I will

stay using the terminology to which I am most familiar.

You say you are deserted, you are not deserted, the Brethren have not

deserted you, and in the Darkest Moment of the Soul, there is a light

shining, that light comes from 'That', which will wash away you

tears, 'That' which will break your heart so that you can be

mended. Your arguments are not solid dear Brother, not to those that

have felt the embrace of The Beloved. Your inflexibility, combined

with your determined search, may well introduce you to 'The Dark

Night...', the very ONE you rebuked the most, will be the one that

rescues you. I speak from experience not from books.

 

With Respect and Divine Love,

 

Mike Keenor

 

 

 

 

 

PRIOR POSTING

Hari Om

 

If sadhaks can concentrate on giving short pointers / rationale

which establishes the existence of Supreme Power it will help all

in being definitive, have reference material and it will also

strengthen faith. Ego, Intellect and Mind don't let you agree that

easily. And who knows who may need in the coming turbulent era of

Kaliyug, that is lacking in faith and belief. Let us get united.

 

From discourses of Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj (Taat Shree), whom I

have solely relied on for a number of years -

 

Every human being wants the following:

 

1) To " live for ever " . This is desire for SAT (existence). Fear of

death is the indicator of that desire.

2) To know every thing. No one wants to be unknowlegeable. This is

desire for CHIT (Knowledge).

3) To be happy. No one wants to be unhappy. This is desire for

ANANDA.

 

Any doubt Mr Sarphod? Now if there is a desire then the element to

fulfill that desire must also be there. There must be some one /

some element which enables you to " live for ever " , to be all knowing

and to be ever blissful. Had such an element not existed, we would

not have had the desire for the same.

 

Paramatma is SAT-CHIT-ANANDA.(Sachchidananda)

 

Raam! Raam!! Raam!!!

 

To be continued.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

------------------------------

 

Dear Tabalchi ji,

 

According to J. Krishnamurti " modern so called educated " people want

a little bit of intellectual amusement and therefore they indulge in

meaningless discussions about God and such matters. God cannot be

discussed in this manner, because That Absolute Truth (give

It/Her/Him any name) is beyond description.

Your all the six questions are like the enquiries of a " full

stomach " tourist without an iota of appetite going through the menu,

or reading it aloud with his co-friends. If you are really thirsty

you will not indulge in such childish questions about water, but

will try your best to drink it.

 

I suggest you read Uncommon Wisdom and other books by Dr Capra (a

physic scientist) who has quoted from our Sanskrit literature about

God, or read A Brief History of Time by Hawking Stephens (well known

expert on dark hole and universe) to know the concept of time and

space. At least do go through some writings by Nobel laureate Dr

Edington (a scientist). Only then, you can be a little serious about

exploring the great Absolute Truth. Become " jyan-vijyan-triptah " and

only then we can walk together on this spiritual quest.

 

Regards,

Suresh C. Sharma

------------------------

 

Sir,

You are asking the oldest question ever being asked. See around

you, a sperm has made you upto approximately 6 feet. Who designed

this project and process. Your father and mother only are tools.

Inquire within and get the answer.

 

surender syal

--------------------------------

 

Mitro,

Why has this God become famous as " HE " why not " she " or " IT "

or " Nothing " ? Today's generation will not believe in gibberish

bakwaas . The paradox is every religion, every saint says that God

is ONE. But even within Hindus philosophy we see thousands of gods

(many names and forms). If God is One then why all the differences

and the fights? How come? Ramchander Homma

 

------------------------------

I agree with Luca Brasi that I should be fairly replied. I have

asked a lot of questions. I want proof/logic and I want to know How

is that Supreme. I want sample. I want rationale. My Begum Saahibaa

also told me that I am head breaker like your Shashikaljee told me.

But I never agreed with her so far. I never admitted this version.

I am not head or skull breaker. My name suggests that I am mind

fixer. Any way how the name matters? I am what I am. I accept my

parents because even if I dont remember my birth, they remember

that. They know that I am their child. I can see them. I can feel

them. I can experience them. I can recognise them. That is why they

are my parents. Where is God? How can I accept God on the grounds

that since I did not know my parents at the time of birth and I

accepted hence I should accept God also. Children are children. They

dont understand. But I am adult. I understand. My Begum Sahibaa

could not satisfy me and hence she asked me to get in touch with you

She said you will satisfy me.I checked with her that I am not

satisfied even after, because I have MOST SOLID arguments, then

what? Even my father deserted me because he could not satisfy me.

She said such situation will not arise. If I cant see , I cant

accept. Prove to me how one can accept without seeing or feeling or

experiencing or logic or rationale or basis. At least I should feel

or experience. Even if my parents were dead at the time of birth,

still I would accept that because how can I come without them on

this earth. What is your answer? Pratap or Vineet or Mike or

Shashikala. My Begum Sahibaa said few things regarding observations

of Vineet also. Please reply- Sadhaks of this self

proclaimed " Divine " site. Dont go by my name. Even my Begum

Saahibaa complains regarding my name. What can I do regarding my

name Jee?

 

Sarphod Tabalchi

 

 

PRIOR POSTING

Hare Krishna

 

Sarphodji,

 

Not only can Parmatma be an individual he can also be a fish

(Matsya-avatar), a tortoise (Kachchap-avatar), a pig (varaha-avatar),

a half lion-half man (Narsimha-avatar) and what not!!!

According to Gita, not only can a devotee see God but also know Him

and also enter into Him.

 

Arjuna said

O universal form, O thousand-armed Lord, I wish to see You in Your

four-armed form, with diadem on your head with club, wheel, conch and

lotus flower in Your hands. I long to see You in that form. (11.46)

 

Sanjaya said

The Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krishna, having spoken thus to

Arjuna, displayed His real four-armed form and at last showed His

two-armed form, thus encouraging the fearful Arjuna. (11.50)

 

Lord Krishna said:

My dear Arjuna, this form of Mine you are now seeing is very

difficult

to behold. Even the demigods are ever seeking the opportunity to see

this form, which is so dear.

Neither by the study of Vedas, nor by penance, nor by charity, nor

even by rituals can I be seen in this form (with four-arms), as You

have seen Me.

O valiant Arjuna, through single-divided devotion, however, I can be

seen in this form (with four-arms), known in essence and even entered

into.

My dear Arjuna, he who performs all his duties for Me, depends on Me,

is devoted to Me, has no attachment, and is free from malice towards

all beings, reaches Me. (11.52-55)

 

Please give special attention to the last 2 verses. This will answer

your question of knowing and seeing God.

 

Yes, I have also read the same in Swamiji's book which your wife has

stated. I consider it to be true because I believe in Swamiji's

words.

 

Hare Krishna

Varun P. Paprunia

------------------------------

 

Hari Om

 

No! Sarphodji. Those who want to learn should read carefully and

should learn also to be patient. All sadhaks upto now have given

excellent observations. I have also given you logics/pointers and

will

continue to give you till you get satisfied. I agree with Luca that

there must be logics/rationale existing. It is another matter, as Mr

Vineet stated, that they are pointless once you proceed ahead. But

still questions are questions and your insistence , though, odd but

still should be respected. Your " Begum Sahibaa " appears to have

directed herself to peace. I wish you understood the hidden affection

in the in the message of Mike Keenor to you. Here are more

logics/pointers to you:

 

3. In life, we always find a higher person than ourselves. In every

field a higher person than one is existing. See around you, you will

find this statement to be true. Even the President of USA can not say

" I am the Highest " . Always a better /higher person than you is

existing. Now where does this " highness " end. If there is sense of

highness , then there must be an element which is " highest " . God is

that element. God is the HIGHEST.

 

4. You always need some " shelter " to survive. In the childhood you

need shelter of parents, teacher, etc. Then of education, ability,

wife, money, home, employers, what not. In old age, you need wife,

children, stick, doctor, medicines, health etc Sujects change but not

the need for shelter.. If there is consistent need for shelter , then

there must be an element existing of whose shelter is the ultimate

shelter. Is not it Mr Sarphod. ( You should argue on such in

principle

points. Check up with you Begum Sahibaa.) ? If you are thirsty ,

there

must be water existing on the planet. Now when you need always some

shelter or other, then there must be an element which can be

described

as " Highest Shelter available " ! God is " PARAM ASHRAYA DATA " Giver

of that shelter. If you take shelter of God, no other shelter will be

necessary,

 

5. We always want to be perfect. There is no doubt on that. But there

is also no doubt regarding the fact that we err. In fact " to err is

human " -this saying is prevalent on this planet from time immemorial.

Now if there is a desire to become perfect then there must exist an

element which is most perfect. Did you ever hear that there was a

difference of a fraction of a second even in timings of Sun rise and

Sun set? Is not everything moving to the perfection? Who can be more

perfect except God. God is the MOST PERFECT.

 

To be continued till you say " I am satisfied "

 

As regards your observation that " Nature " also creates/controls-

answer is that whether you believe that nature has " knowledge " ? If

yes, then that nature is our God. In our religion ( I don't know your

religion) SHAKTI is God also. But if according to you , the INERT

NATURE has no knowledge, then you have to accept God. Can inert

nature

take care of so many souls, operate Law of Karma, provide food to so

many creatures? If Yes- I don't mind calling that Nature to be God.

After all it is a matter only of " terminology " . If no then you must

accept that IF THERE IS DESIRE / NEED IN YOU TO BE PERFECT OR TO TAKE

SHELTER OR TO SEEK HIGHNESS then there exists an element to fulfil

that desire. That element is called " GOD/ PARAMATMA " . Logical ?

Does

it appeal to your logic Mr Sarphod? Check up with your Begum Sahibaa

and come back. Your arguments shall exhaust, not our arguments- be

sure on this. After all you are on GT Site !

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

-------------------------------

 

Dear Sarphod:

 

Wonderful! I like your guts to put this question across!! I was

startled to start with and even alarmed as I contemplated " thanks

for triggering the turbulence from which proceeds the peace as

always. "

 

Son goes to father and asks, " Father, what is God? " Father

answered, " Whatever drives your life, whatever sustains your life

and whatever absorbs your life is verily God my child. Think about

It! " The father was wise enough not to instruct what God is. The son

promptly contemplates in what his father said and came back, " Father,

fear drives all the lives. Fear sustains all the lives. Fear absorbs

all the life. Therefore, fear should be the god. " Father

remarks, " Good job! Keep thinking. " The son not knowing whether his

revelation was conclusive or not continues to contemplate. Son comes

back to father and declares, " Father, desire drives all the lives,

desire sustains all the lives and desire absorbs all the lives.

Therefore, the desire should be the god. " Father remarks again, Good

job! Keep thinking. " The son does not feel the conclusive

appreciation regarding the god - is it fear or desire? He continues

to contemplate and realizes that, the happiness drives all the

lives. Happiness sustains all the lives. And, happiness absorbs all

the lives. Therefore happiness should be the god.

 

Now he does not go back to his father as he has already felt the

wisdom behind his father's remarks. God is not something that can be

taught to, or preached to or transferred to anybody. It is the

notion within ... it is the imagination within ... it is the

deliberation within ... it is the understanding within ... it is the

appreciation within ... IT IS THE PRESENCE WITHIN in its core. The

son, accepting the challenge from his father to use the body, senses

and mind blessed to him, continues to contemplate.

 

He has seen the driving force, sustenance strength and absorption

power in the fear, in the desire as well as in the happiness. He

sees that the three divinities of creation, sustenance,and

absorption transcend the boundaries of his existential fears,

desires and happiness altogether integrating the whole universe of

knowns as well as unknowns - manifested as well as unmanifested -

mitigating the differences that were once prominent amongst the

three phases of life - fear, desire and happiness.

 

Then starts another dilemma - who is the god amongst these three

divinites that seem to determine what life is? Driving Force or

Sustenance Strength or Absorption Power? Again, he approaches his

father, the wisdom established within to contemplate on the dilemma.

 

The driving force comes first to claim the unclaimed post of The

God. On ruthless examination, the driving force starts wondering

aloud that it itself should have been driven by something else. The

new driving force wonders the same and so on. The driving force digs

up an infinite legacy of its own kind beneath lost in the oblivion

of the past. It returns back in frustration not withstanding what

the driving force could really be.

 

The absorption power jumps in next to claim the still unclaimed post

of The God. Again, the wisdom starts the same gruelling scrutiny.

The power under sharp vigilence starts whithering away to wonder if

it absorbs everything there should be something to absorb itself.

The new absorbing power wonders the same way and so on. The

absorption power piles up an infinite heirarchy of its own kind

above lost in the oblivion of the future. It returns back in

frustration not withstanding what the absorption power could ever

be.

 

The empty throne is still awaiting to be filled. The sustenance

strength walks to claim the post in confidence. The valiant wisdom

does its job with no resistance subjecting the life sustenance

power in suspension of its examination. The sustencance strength

which provides strength to all the life around starts wondering what

is the source of its own strength and sustenance. The new source of

the strength resounds the same wonder what could be the source of

strength. The sustenance strength keeps jumping from on fold to

another all around the universe that is within its control to seek

itself folding itself in infinitude lost in the vast presence. It

returns back in frustration not withstanding what the sustenance

strength could ever be.

 

Seeing the crest-fallen champions of life not realizing their own

true nature around, the throne of The God starts fading into

silence. The wisdom starts wondering in itself. Is it not the

driving force as well as the sustenance strength as well as the

absorption power all the time all around? Suddenly, the demarkation

between the three divinities that was once so thick and opaque

starts giving away to reveal the force, strength and power of

creation, sustenance and absorption in itself and hence in every

thing that is perceieved ever.

 

The realized wisdom gets back and declares. Never ever ignore your

fears. Never ever ignore your desires. Never ever ignore your

happiness. Ever be with your fears, desires and happiness as you

are. Then you see the unison amongst your fears, desires and joys

and hence in all your emotions, relations and existence within as

well as around. Then you see all the boundaries separating your

notions dissolve in the very wisdom where you dwell upon. Being what

you are in spite of your apparent variances of life naturally

transcends all the barriers built by your cognition across

everything to reveal THE ONE everywhere and everywhence. Then the

very post of God does not appear to be real anymore which seemed the

most troublesome question to start with.

 

God remains evasive till you drift away from what you are in vain

searching whatever IT could be! Therefore, my dear friend, better

pause in your frenzy search and look around and look within … be

what you are. Then God is everything … not just a notion ... not

just a faith ... not just a doubt ... but, everything ... EVERYTHING

WITH NO EXCEPTION. If you remain what you are, IT is all-inclusive.

If you attempt to search for it, IT becomes all-exclusive. In other

words, IT is EVERYTHING in your presence; and IT is NOTHING in your

perception.

 

Respects.

 

Naga Narayana

--------------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

Let us address one aspect of Tabalchiji's issues with responses of

sadhakas received so far!

To be able to see God, one needs to recognize God upon seeing

anything, right? If one says I don't see God, one is looking for what

one " thinks " God is in whatever one is looking at. For God to be

" that " it will be very very limiting to God, because what we think is

so limited even if it is some grand image of God. That is not

logical, right?

Now when Swamiji says Goenkaji and Poddarji had darshana of God, what

does it mean?

It means the deep understanding of what God is and subsequent

realization that " my God, there is nothing else but only God IS in

the disguise of the Cosmos " that sees through that individual.

The individual's vision has changed entirely, where he/she saw

objects of the world before, now he sees only Divinity in the same

forms. It is our experience that what we believe out there, we tend

to see only that through our being closed minded. Similarly when we

understand God, this " Understanding " opens up the very mind who sees

God everywhere, individual is merely a channel God is using.

Other aspects of issues will see later....

Namaskar............Pratap Bhatt

 

------------------------

-Shree Hari-

 

Sarphodji,

 

Great! You are still questioning brilliant!

I have read the responses from our brethren, great beauty full of

divine love. But I will stick to the hared nosed roll,(look past it

dear friend).

If someone asked me to show her an oak tree, and I gave her an acorn,

what would she say I wonder? Of course the blueprint for the whole

tree is in the acorn, one also one wonders, did the first oak tree

have an acorn or the first acorn have an oak tree?

Question 6 if resolved is the platform upon which all the other

question can be answered it seems to me.

I can only tell you how I came to be touched be The Divine, that was

by my search into paradoxes, like the universe, like the acorn.

I once mentioned a man I met in unusual circumstance. It was about

3am

in a large air traffic control room, very few controllers in the room

at that time. I was waiting to get clearance to work on a console(to

do annual technical checks). There across the room was this

controller, He had his headset on,(with a long lead), he was

performing asanas, (within the restriction), " trying to stay awake? "

I

asked, " no he boomed " , we started to talk. We had 'Much' in common,

we

developed a dialog from then on , it was he who suggested I read

Bhagavad Gita,(I humbly suggest you do also).

He once said to me with his booming humorous voice, " Mike if people

could her us they would think we're 'Lunatics'.

What we had in common at the root, was our hunger for the truth, and

the courage, 'to ride the tiger " .

We were an unlikely pair from a world view, he was a Sri Lankan, me

an

Anglo Celt, especially if one could here us talking, but we were

brothers of the spirit.

There is much I could talk of, but I must bow to the respected

moderator.

 

With Respect and Divine Love,

 

Mike Keenor

-

Mr Sarphod ! So you are a male as well as married ! Very good Jee !

 

It is a good habit to act in accordance with advice your Begum. How

did she leave you alone? Do you have books of Swamiji Ramsukhdasji

Maharaj at your home? Your “Begum†had those books according to

you.

Did you read them? Or your Begum only reads them? By the way did

you ever think about or did you ever have a desire to smell “

flower

of sky†? Why did you not think about flower of sky or desired to

smell it ? Reply. This is a question to you. Also reply if you always

believe only after “seeing†?

 

Let us know as to how you can get satisfied according to you?. What

methodology suits your mind.? How do you generally feel regarding

this world,mind, intellect, body etc etc ? How according to you such

a

big world is operating ? Do you think there are some laws governing

this world? Keep also giving your observations , counter arguments on

EACH AND EVERY response which is given to you. Otherwise how will we

know whether the cure has taken place? Understood? You can consult

your Begum also before replying to my queries. Always tell us what

your Begum told you and what is your own observation. Why don’t you

tell your Begum also to become member and start Satsanga? Will that

not be better? What is her kind name, Jee?

 

Namaste Jee.

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

 

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

Another aspect of issues raised by Tabalchiji can be answered based

on

what sadhakas already have echoed in their responses.

The most important thing is to know that God is not " something " ,

" somewhere " and " some times " . It is at the core of our being, an

intimate experience which is The Knowingness without anything known.

In otherwords, God cannot be known as another limited object,

nevertheless, is known as " knowingness " in us by virtue of just

being.

For example, if someone were to ask you, can you show me Love, Peace,

Compassion, Beauty, Goodness etc " out there " ? You cann't! They are

experiences within us that we attribute to things/situations etc

outside which may have triggered them. Some philosopher rightly said

" From the beginning, not a thing is! " Please, please, see the truth

of

this. We are connected to the world only through Being Conscious of

something or other which we conceptualize as subject

experiencer(mind-body), and objects experienced, both thought as

separate. Such division is not experiential.

Just as these experiences are not seen " out there " , but are truely

happening in our consciousness, God cannot be seen, as separate from

Consciousness.

Sun, for example, is nothing but the experience of light and heat,

conceptualized as " Sun " out there, for practical purpose. This is

also

true for all apparant objects of the world.

God or Consciousness or Atman, are also such conceptual words of the

most intimate Wordless Experience! They are good pointers though!

When people engage in services to help others who are victims of

disasters, diseases, violence, wars, terrorism etc etc who motivates

their actions? Unconditional Love and Goodness of the heart! People

who help to preserve natural environment, forests, animals, etc etc

are also inspired by the same Love and Goodness!

Can we not call Unconditional Love and Goodness of the heart God?

Are those who bring such disasters to " apparant others " also God, if

all is God?

They are also, yes, but unfortunately " they " have not understood yet

that they are!

In God's world, only God exists playing " others " , so who does what to

whom?

Try doing evil acts after understanding deep within that all of us,

nature included, together, not individually, are God! One cannot!

 

Namaskar...........Pratap Bhatt

 

 

-

PRIOR POSITING

Dear Sadhak,

Excellent explanation has been given by sadhak Pratapji....Excellent!

If the parents donot know GOD how can they teach the kids?

Swamiji says if something is lying in darkness we can take a deepak

with us to see it but to see a deepak(lamp) we donot need another

deepak. Same way the objects of this whole worlds can be

seen/experienced through the " SELF " but to know this SELF we donot

need anything from the world( mind/body/intellect etc.) Only SELF

knows it SELF.

1. Where is God I have never seen Him?

He is not HE, He is " I " . When we can see/know who am I we can

see/know who is God.

Indeed, You alone know Yourself by Your own potencies, O origin of

all, Lord of all beings, God of gods, O Supreme Person, Lord of the

universe! Ch10:15

2. Who has seen Him?

All realized people have known HIM.Some claim that they have seen

HIM too.

Swami Vivekananda asked this question to everyone he met-Have you

seen God ? All answers negative except Ramkrishna Paramhansa.He said-

" Yes I have seen God as clearly as I am seeing you right now. "

Listening to this Narendra became his disciple.

3. How is He?

With a single fragment of Myself I pervade and support this entire

universe.Ch10:42

4. If I dont know how do I accept?

Then go ahead follow the path shown to us by Swamiji or any realized

soul, and know Him first, then accept.

5. God is a term coined by elders to put moral shackles over us so

that we may indulge in goodness.

What's wrong with that ? Accept God ,be righteous and be Arjuna or

donot accept Him, be Duryodhana - choice is yours.

6. There has to be some basis for his existence? What are the logics

which point towards the existence of God? From where to pick the

thread?

Start with meditation and Gita. Follow the path shown by Him in Gita-

Karma Yoga, Gyaan Yoga or Bhakti Yoga. Establish yr self in YOGA.....

 

No one can force any one to believe. Kids learn by imitation. Lead

yr own life according to Dharma,and kids will pick it up.Before

giving them tatva Gyaan(absolute knowledge),its better to sit with

them and watch Ramayana, Krishna, Mahabharata and let them learn by

the character of our Sagun Sakaar Bhagwaan(God with Forms). If they

can learn from Rama or Krishna, they will be on right path and will

get their realization at their own speed.

with lots of Love,

a sadhika

Sadhna Karigar

 

--------------------------------

Jai Hanuman

 

Oye What a question Jee!!. As good as the name of the

questioner!! " Sarphod " in Hindi means skull breaker ! " Tablachi "

means he who plays treble. Unique Jee !! Namaste Sarphodji !!

Welcome Jee ! There is music everywhere ! Who kept such a classic

name Jee ? Father? OK, pick the thread from father only.

 

How do I accept if I don't know? Accept just as you accepted some

one to be your father without knowing anything about him. Don't say

please- " that children now a days need more than belief to accept " .

That, I am afraid, is not as classic a statement as is even your

kind name. Fact is that children practice only belief and solid

belief. They are masters of belief - and teachers of entire humanity

on this subject of belief. Poor adults need proof. What kind of

proof was solicited by you in accepting some one to be your father

or some name to be mine or for that purpose by " the children of now

a days " - say son of Sarphod Tablachi, if any ??

 

Do you " know " as to who is your father and who is your mother? What

proof or rationale you can give to support your acceptance of Mr X

as your father?

 

You asked " from where to pick the thread " . I reply to you that you

pick the thread from yourself and your Dear Father. Come On !

 

Reply now! Argue !!

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

-------------------------------

Mr.Pratapji Bhatt has explained the existance of God beautifully.It

is very much in sync with Sri Sri Paramhansa Yogananda's explanation

in his books- " Autobiography of a yogi " and " Man's eternal quest "

which i have read. Also the story quoted by mahalaksmiji perfectly

describes how to know God.He is all knowing and yet unknown.He is

the Devine Intelligence that governs all that is known to us.God is

indescribebable.He can only be felt in the depths of a pure soul.

Ami Chhowala

 

--------------------------------

I still remain unsatisfied in this " divine " forum. How and why

Paramatma can not be an individual ? Is there nothing in your

scriptures like Gita which says that a devotee can also " see " God ?

My Begum Sahiba states that she read from a book of your Swami

Ramsukhdasji that Jai Dayal Goenka and Hanuman Poddar

had " darshanas " of God. Was His statement right or your reference

of good Swami is right? Why do you say that God can not be known?

How then the desire to know can be fulfilled? Whether I need an

instruction manual or not is not the focal point, in fact, to be

fair to me, answer to my questions in simple and convincing manner

is focal point! None of the " sadhaks " are convincing so far. I

asked from where to pick the thread? The responses are unclear and

incomplete.

 

Mr Mike ! Incomplete, was your answer. If you believe you were like

me in the past, then make me like you in the present. Is that not a

divine task? Is that not the role of this forum? Logic must exist.

Pointers must be there. Knowledge cant be beyond itself. What else

we are doing at present except meeting?

 

Mr Vyas - When Your so called " Nature " made oceans, Sun Moon etc

and when Nature is supreme then where is the question of God? Why

cant Fire/ Ocean/etc are called God ? If yes, then how God is

beyond knowledge? How God can not be seen as stated by Mr Pratap

Bhatt or by Vineet Sarvottam ?

 

" Sadhaks " - My Begum Sahibaa directed me to you people to satisfy

my knowledge quest ! I expected better as I am hungry for answers.

 

Sarphod Tabalchi

--------------------------------

Such a question can only arise from those who consider gross body as

real self and not the outer sheath of immortal " real self " which

contains the apriori knowledge.

 

They see God every day but do not recognise THEE. The Universal God

is Tri-Ani-Pada- three bodies in One i.e. gross, subtle and divine.

Since the entire Brahamad is God, His gross body consists of " Sun

and Moon His eyes, firmament his middle body and earth as His Feet "

and His Head is in Heaven. Thus entire Brahmand is God. Most of the

people who find gross body as real, want to imagine and visulaise

God as a human being forgetting that human beings who live on this

earth are " Thy " tiny living cells. We have several billions living

cells in our gross body, can any living cell of our body tell who we

are?

 

But those who find human soul as " real self " have no difficulty in

knowing God. His divine body is the Omniscient Supreme Soul

(Parmatma) and His subtle body " Mahadeva " is omnipotent Supreme

Spirit prevalent in all animate and inanimate life/things. His

spirit is found in Shuniya (cosmic void) of all kind of matter

consisting of atoms with unsuspected vitality. Because of His spirit

prevalent in shuniya, matter is not inert.

 

Since Man is born in the image of God, human beings are also tri-ani-

pada. Immortal soul resides in our divine body, spirit resides in

our subtle body and gross instruments in our material body. Those

who consider material gross body as the real self will always find

difficult to know formless and ineffable universal God.

 

Incidentally formeless and ineffable Universal God is Brahma- name

derived from Brahmand and other gods in human form are Iswaras.

Iswaras are not the gods of entire mankind.

with regards,

Prem Sabhlok

 

 

--------------------------------

Dear sarphod,

 

God is in nature,he can only be felt.His power is dwelling

everywhere in the nature in the form of cosmic vibratioins .If we

can tune our mind with the same frequency by way of sadhana we can

feel the godliness of the nature.How a sperm can create a body with

life is the proof of the supernatural power of the god. So far we

are only establishing the things which are existing, but we are

unable to establish about the source of the existence.

Our ultimate goal our of life is to reuntite ourselves with the

nature from where we have come.Nothing extra to be thought about

god. Living close to the nature is living near god. But the senses

attached to our body always act against our realisation

process.controling the senses is the biggest challenge of our life.

Let us teach our children about righteous way of living ,think

naturally and live naturally.

 

with regards

Ramana kothuri

 

-------------------------------

--------------------------------

The questions of Mr Sarphod Tabalchi are basic questions. I too

dont believe that the Supreme Power would not leave any pointers or

logics of His existence. From where to pick the thread ? I dont

agree with Mr Sarvottam that God can not be seen by His beloved

ones.. There has to be nothing which is beyond the powers of

Supreme. One principle came from Mike's narration and Mr Vyas'

message that before " big bang " too something existed or that if

there is creation then there must be a creator. But how that is

exclusive prorogative of God only ? Creativity is universal symptom

and authority. Spiders are also creators as per Mike Keenor. Please

elaborate with reference to Sarphod's questions. What about five

elements? Are they creators? Are not these elements playing the

transformation game? I think more serious and direct discussions are

warranted on the subject, not just belief stricken answers. First

the logics/rationales have to be exhausted.

 

Luca Brasi

----------------------------

 

Jai Kali Mata

 

What is meant by " No one knows about time!!! " Also, I am unclear as

to how this is relevant to the questions asked? Is this idea about

time, emanated out of teachings of Shraddheya Swamiji referred by

him? Kindly clarify !

 

Bandook Singh

 

--------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

 

RESUBMITTED WITH SOME CORRECTIONS

 

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

You have asked -

 

1) Where is God, I have never seen Him?

Answer: Paramatma is not an individual that you or any one can

simply see. Existence - IS-ness (sattaa maatre) has been given the

name Paramatma. Otherwise there is no name for that Existence or all

Names are only Paramatma's (Supreme Consciousness's) Names.

 

2) Who has seen Him?

Answer: Paramatma has not been seen by anyone to date and in future

too Paramatma will not be ever seen. Shraddhey Swamiji has stated

that Paramatma can be believed, not known, nor seen. Beyond this

whatever anyone says, is questionable.

 

3) How is He?

Answer: How, where, when, what, why, such questions regarding

Parmatma are pointless. That which cannot be known, it cannot be

described at all.

 

4) What are you able to know " Time " (samay). This question has been

asked regarding time (whose beginning and end is unknown to us). It

is not a question about the watch or the interval. It is not only

you, but no one understands anything about " time " . They can say

nothing about time. Then why do you believe in time? Similarly

believe and accept Paramatma, it will be nothing but gain.

 

5) This same work is also performed by men through establishment of

laws. Just as all do not believe in the law, similarly, everyone

continues to speak and share for correcting one's foolishness, and

according to one's own convenience and conformance giving that

tattva a " form " . You too can speak about the same as well.

 

6) 'Existence' itself is 'Paramaatmaa'. Where can any supportive

arguments and evidence exist to establish the existence

of 'Existence' (named Paramaatmaa)? Then where is one to get the

support of this essential elemental belief 'ASTITTVA'? Reasoning-

deliberation-discussion (tark), proof-evidence (pramaan) can be of

that thing which we know. But Paramatma is not known and cannot ever

be known, then this reasoning and seeking evidence is not in

conformance to that reasoning.

 

7) Do you want Paramatma? or do you want an instruction manual or

an aphorism (sutra) to grab hold of Paramatma? Don't get caught up

in the vicious cycle of trying to find an instruction manual.

Leaving the search, become engaged in " Chup Saadhan " (Effortless

Awareness, Discipline of Silence). All quest, and inquiry will be

quietened, will become still.

 

Please kindly forgive any limitations in the expression / words

used.

 

Vineet Sarvottam

--------------------------

 

Hari Om

 

How to know what is beyond knowledge - is the moot question.

 

Logic/Rationale !! Proof !!! Sample !! Consider the following:

 

1 .Whatever we are able to see on this earth there is always a

creator /manufacturer - be it an allpin, pen, table, house, machine,

house, bed, watch, pen, paper, cloth or aircraft. Anything visible.

Then there should be creator of oceans, fire, air, mountains, earth,

Sun. Moon, stars also !

 

God is the creator of all. - CREATOR

 

2. Whatever thing which moves , be it car, aircraft, bicycle,

machine, computer, - there is always a controller thereof. Earth

also moves. Sun/Moon also move. Oceans remain in their limits. Sun

rises and sets perfectly without fail. There must be a controller of

them also!

 

God is the controller of all- CONTROLLER

 

Q BUT A HUMAN BEING ALSO CREATES ! WHAT IS SO IMPORTANT ABOUT IT ?

 

Ans A human being cannot " create " anything! It is only " nature "

which creates! You can only change the shape thereof. You can covert

gold into ornaments or iron into sword or utensil, but you can't

create gold or iron ! Only nature provides that. You can mix two or

more elements, formulate, change shape only. You can create . You

can " discover " only.

 

To be continued.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

-------------------------

Kindly read bertrand russel

Aranha Roy

 

---------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

Let us continue further on the subject and build on what sadhakas

have said.

Please, it may sound too intellectual, but it is not! It may humble

us!

Consider this: If we need to know/study any object, the object has

to exist in

the first place.

Even if we cannot know the object, we always know it exists. This

knowing of an

existence is prior to the knowledge of its nature, attributes,

function etc.

The Universe is a collection of objects, and can be said to be one

Existence

fundamentally. Individual objects within it are individual

existences localized

in space and time over which they exist, and change to other forms,

continuing

the existences.

When we say Universe we mean the Existence only. Even the word

Universe points

to the Existence first. How do we know such Existence itself? Only

by being

aware/cognizant of it, no other way. So the Existence is awareness

of Existence.

To see what is prior to such Existence, there has to be Awareness to

know

whether or not such Existence IS. Thus Awareness as Existence has to

be

beginningless! What is after the Existence, non-existence? no,

because to say

it, there has to be Awareness of non-existence. If there is

Awareness of

non-existence, IS-ness is established. Thus that which IS, the

Existence(without

division into many objects), is eternally free of time and space

containing all

objects(names/forms) in time and space by creating mind and endowing

it with

this ability in terms of thoughts/feelings. Gita in 2:16 says the

real never

ceases to be.

Such Awareful Existence has to be most Powerful, Intelligent,

Beautiful, full of

Love and Blissful which is our experience. Can we not call this God?

God means Such Intelligence as seen through those who serve, and love

unconditionally, those who fight for Dharma, the righteousness, and

those who

preach God's message!

Evil actions come out from not realizing the Truth of Eternal

Oneness, GOD!

Namaskar.............Pratap Bhatt

 

 

 

----------------------------

My answer is simply to a question which has been indirectly

asked: " Why can't I see Him? "

Because He is the Seer. You are what you are looking for. It is

subjective awareness.

The problem lies with the word 'God' because we then suppose a

distinct being like a tribal deity. No, it is Awareness, Supernal-

consciousness. This is the Vedantic way. Find out who you really

are, not how others see you, but from your subjective perspective,

and you'll find what you're looking for.

Rishi Handa

 

----------------------------

Wonderful expression by Pratap (Bhatt) Bhai

 

Further, a simple but serious exercise could help in understanding

this.....

Sarphodji, ask yourself " who is asking these questions? "

" Who wants to know God? " ....and wait for the answer....

see what comes from deep inside.....

 

but you have to have patience.....and keep asking/repeating the

questions....

In fact when you come across any such question, ask yourself

who is this who wants to know this, who is asking the question?....

 

and wait for the answers and experience that follows.......

Best wishes

Sushil Jain

 

--------------------------------

I am a believer of God. Like one person said in the e-mail below, I

went through that 'show me God to believe' stage when I was around

22 years - 26 years. I was God lover before and again lover now. I

do not really know and I do not think with my limited ablity I can

ever know. At the same time I am not blind follower too. I am open

to all these 6 questions coming from a logical person because I had

them before too and have them now too. Before - with doubt, now -

with wonder and amazement.

 

Knowing God is a long journey. I am on the journey, I beleive I am

gradually understanding the divine concept. I am understanding them

through others, specially our ancestors, Indian scriptures. There

are great concepts, ideas and explanations, there are trash also

amongst them. I am amazed at the power of those ideas and

explanations. They attempted volumes and spent 100s of years to find

God and explain the divinity. Can I really understand all this in my

life? I doubt, which is why its a journey for me. Can I see God? It

depends on. I feel divinity in some great people, in their ideas for

humanity - around me.

 

OK, when somebody asks the question 'show me God', what they are

asking us is 'show me Jesus, Show me Shiva or show me Vishnu'. I

doubt if any one has seen God in these forms. Unless the divine

power appears so for any. As for God in its full form - Can I

imagine the distance between the Earth and the nearest star (Alpha

Centauri - about 4 light years away). I cannot imagine that

distance - however logically I think. Can I see God then - which is

full of this universe? Impossible to imagine. Then how can I see

God, unless God willingly appears to me.

 

My dear friend, answers to those 6 questions need volumes of

explanation or simply experiecing of the divine power - depending on

where you stand on the quest for God. Its a journey, so please

discuss with people who have done the research (of your 6 questions

before) and experience the facts yourself. You still go through the

oscillations of belief and disbeliefs, but if your quest is sincere

you will start seeing light at the end of tunnel.

 

The above does not give straight answers to even one of your

questions. So thanks for your time, if at all you read through this

until now.

 

Venu Gopal

--------------------------------

 

 

PRIOR POSTING

I will come at these questions in a hard nosed manner, maybe I am

blessed as I too waved aside religions when younger but traveled full

circle to The Beloved, who I dearly love with my absolute being.

 

Question 6: There has to be some basis for his existence? What are

the logics which point towards the existence of God? From where to

pick the thread?

O.K. I would ask the skeptical young, (I will call him S. ), tell me

S. how did this Godless Universe begin? He may be a brilliant

physicist, good chance though, regardless S will start to talk about

the 'big bang', the question would then be, o.k. S. was there

substance, was there energy, and was there time, before the 'Event'?

I would ask S. also when this energy of the bang runs out what

then?, I would press the point home that the Great Indians

Traditions had a good explanation for all this many millennium

before the present time, and is probably a good guide for the

scientists. Oh! I would ask my young friend S. where did the laws of

physics come from? Apparently they are unique, the laws had to be

spot on for there to be an existance, that is what the physicist

seem to be saying.

 

I would ask S. one other thing, how is it possible for a spider to

build the perfect web according to its kind, without actually being

taught.

 

I would say to S., think about it, think about it, be tenacious, be

mercilessness, and be brave, let your desire for the truth take you

where it will, just hang in there! S. my friend I was once like you,

maybe one day we can really talk.

 

With Respect and Divine Love,

 

Mike Keenor

------------------------

 

Dear Sadak,

 

1. Where is God I have never seen Him?EXAMPLES Most children know

water is H2O (Hydrogen 2 parts and Oxygen 1 part) ask them them to

show hydrogen and oxygen showing water. Next show them Yogurt (Curd)

and ask them to show milk. Bigger children ask them to show planets.

Then tell then from Sanskrit slokas-- " God is apprameyam " that which

cannot be seen or known by senses as in case of above examples, as

God can be only known by Gyana (knowledge)

2. Who has seen Him? Like in case of scientist tell as per above

examples, so does Saints tell. Only a saint (Guru) can show God as

shown to Vivekananda by Swamy Ramakrishna

3. How is He? Slokas say: Aroopamai, Aksharamai. Roopam, Akandamai,

Viratroopamai Etc. No definite shape as HE appears in the form that

the devotee wants. HE is in sounds - Om, HE is like Sri Krishna/Sri

Rama Etc, Omnipresent (That cosmic energy filled in everything), HE

is in all shapes and forms.

4. If I dont know how do I accept? Contemplate. If you accept that

there is Galaxies then contemplate what energy is performing whole

universe, like in the case of any toy needs battery, car need petrol

or fuel, computer need electricity etc. Still do not want to accept-

Leave it.

 

Jai Sri Krishna

 

baiya sathyanarayan

-----------------------------

 

All questions arise out of answers. When one asks a question

either he needs a confirmation of the answer which he already has

or he is answering his own question. When somebody is asking a

question relating to God, first he has to explain what is in his

mind when he says or thinks of GOD.

 

Einstein said that the world is an optical illusion. We think and

feel that we are separated from the rest. This is an optical

illusion. We have no direct contact with the outside world. All

the sensorial data has to filter through our optical nerve and our

mind (delusion). So we have no idea of what is exactly out there.

When one realizes this he comes closer to God or some superior

knowledge.

 

To realise that we are the debris of God is the supreme

realisation.

 

The most mysterious thing holds the most important key. Death is

the most mysterious thing. Death holds the most important key.

 

When death happens. The soul/consciousness releases out of the

cage (body � which is always subjected to three dimensional view

and

linear concept of time and space), one will realize or merge with

God

 

H. Subair

 

 

------------------------------

dear pratapji,thank u for giving us such wonderful knowledge.person

like you are really god's gift to us.

bhargav mehta

------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Re: Does God (Paramatma) Exist? Where is the Proof? What

is the logic ?

 

Through that supreme devotion he comes to know Me in reality, what

and how great I am; and thereby knowing Me in essence he forthwith

enters into My being.

 

Gita - Chapter 18 Sloka : 55

 

Sundara Raghavendran

---------------------------

 

Deaar Sadhakas, Namaste!

When someone says " where is God? I have never seen Him " , that person

has to know what God is that he expect to see, otherwise he cannot

ask the question. The question comes from the implicit assumption

that God is some imagination, ideas, knowledge, belief, etc. in the

mind and what I see out there is definitely not " God " .

So it is better to rephrase the question back to What God is first.

When that is understood, all questions by Tabalchiji will get

answered.

Consider the following dialogue:

Q: Do you have a doubt about your own existence?

A: No, I know I exist beyond a shadow of doubt. It is so obvious to

me!

Q: How do you know you exist?

A: I don't know HOW, but I am sure I DO!

Q: Do you need any help of another person, scripture, or some

logical explanation to confirm you do exist?

A: Definitely not, even if they say I don't exist, I know I do,

because it is experiential within me now. I don't even need any

sense organs-mind-intellect to tell me I exist!

 

So, it is self-evident existence, of " beingness " we all feel within

us, and by which we know what is knowable in this world as objects

of knowledge. This experience of Being Conscious is always with us,

never are we away from IT, not even in our sleep when body-mind-

world are all gone no one knows where! But I am always!

I just have to find out that ultimately this " I " is Impersonal and

is of the nature of Existence-Consciousness which we call God!

Personal God of Bhakta appears in this Impersonal!

Based on this, I can conclude that God is not a particular object

among many objects we know through sense organs, mind and intellect.

It is THE UNIQUE and objectless EXPERIENCE!

It is like our eyes who cannot see themselves and yet know their

existence beyond any shadow of doubt because SEEING takes place

automatically by just Being.

Once it is grasped, it can lead to God Realization!

Namaskar...

 

Pratap Bhatt

 

-------------------------------

 

My dear Sarphod,

There is a very beautiful story from ancient times that I have

heard from my guru. Once, a king called his minister and said, " I

want you to answer two questions.....otherwise your position will be

at stake.....first, can you show me God. Secondly, what is God

doing right now?

The minister was in anxiety. He went home, began searching

through various scriptures....wondering if he would have a job the

next day. His small son approached him, and noticing his father's

perplexity, inquired, " What troubles you, father? " The father

responded, " Oh, this is not something you would understand. " At

the child's persistence, the father finally explained. The small

child smiled, and simply said, " Father, that is so easy to

answer.....just tell the king that even a small child can answer

these inquiries, and I will then give him my responses " .

The father had no choice, as he didn't know the way to

respond. So, when the child came before the king, he requested the

king, " First, please have a pot of milk brought forth. " The king did

so. Then the child inquired, " Is there ghee in this milk? " The

king said, " Yes, it is there. " Then the child explained, " It is

there, but you cannot see it. Why can you not see the ghee? " The

king said, " There is a process by which the ghee will be brought

forth, of course, first one must churn the milk into butter, then

the butter is slowly heated until the ghee rises to the

surface......only after one patiently follows this process will he

see the ghee. " As the king was speaking, slowly realization came

into his heart, that similarly, one cannot demand to see God at this

moment....there is a process. One who's heart is not pure, who

does not have love and devotion, cannot see the Lord, but He will

certainly reveal Himself to those who are willing to accept the

process of " bringing forth the ghee " .

The child then said, " You are asking me what God is doing.

That is putting me in the postion of teacher, and you as disciple.

So, is it appropriate for you to be sitting on your throne, if you

are learning from me? " The wise King immediately pleced the child

on the throne, and sat in front of him, ready to try to understand

his next lesson. " This is what God is doing " ....he said. " He is

taking someone from a low position and putting him into a high

position, according to the results of his work, and taking someone

else from a high position and putting him into a low position. "

The king was very pleased with the child's answers, and rewarded him

and his father.

So, one may say, " I don't accept such simplistic

responses " .....well, then, such a person will never see the Lord,

unless and until he is fortunate enough to get the association of a

sadhu, by whose association one's heart melts. When one truly

comes into contact and develops some sukrti by contact with a God

consscious person, there is no material, anaytical way to explain

what happens. It is beyond our mundane intelligence, our ability to

analyze. So, simply pray for the youth you are hoping to guide,

and gradually perhaps the mercy of the sadhus will come to them.

It is not a mechanical process.

I hope my words have been gentle, encouraging, and helpful.....it

is truly a sadness which we all share as parents if our children

become somewhat agnostic or doubtful of the underestanding of the

Lord's presence, and the need for ancient, eternal tradition. We

can only pray to be the best examples of loving, patient friends for

them that we can possibly be.

 

respectfully,

Mahalaksmi Dasi

 

-------------------------------

Sarphod,

 

Read Paramahansa Yogananda's book " the Autoibgraphy of a Yogi "

published by Self Realization Fellowship, Los Angeles, CA.

 

Haley H. Haynes

--------------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

In this posting I would like to build on my previous post.

We as parents must deeply understand the truth of who we are, what

is the nature of world and God first. Then only we can explain to

our children. I would shy away to tell children that because it is

said in our scriptures, you have to believe in God being such and

such.

 

We can begin on the path of knowledge with the premise. That which

always IS irrespective of time, location or cause, is Truth. Truth,

thus, cannot be denied and has to be our continuous experience

always, not some states we experience that come and go, rather That

in which all states of experiences happen.

 

In the beginning it may sound like intellectual, but understanding

of that which always IS, has to be our real nature, or Reality of

whatever we all seem to experience dawns on us sooner rather than

later. What is Reality, then?

If we continue to inquire, we may find that whether I am in joyful,

or painful or sad or indifference or even in depressed

situations, " I am " always present and " knowingness " of these various

situations I am in is also always present too, which I never notice

due to my attachments/aversions to situations. These situations

eventually disappear but not " I " .

What is the nature of this I that we all say I when referring to

ourselves? Whatever it is, for sure it IS! This ISNESS-I is the most

certain experience and is Truth. Even if I see illusion, I or seeing

is the truth. This seeing then is communicated as I see an object(or

hear, taste, smell, touch, think, feel etc). I and seeing is

synanymous as consciousness.

 

Now extend this to outer world. Regardless of objects we perceive

out there, Being Conscious of them is the only truth of our

experience. Thus, alleged external world is nothing but ONE

Undivided/Whole Existence/Consciousness(Absolute) in our experience.

Mind is given to us to divide the Existence into different objects

for practical and Divine play. When we come to this understanding,

our attitude towards world changes to one of dispassion, devotion

and to serve it as God, in whatever ways we can. We see God

everywhere our eyes fall upon!

This is God relization.

Namaskar.............Pratap Bhatt

 

GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES:

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related to Gitaji shlokas. Therefore, responses which further

clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be posted.

2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to

substantiate your response.

3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the

extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas

4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting

sadhaka's time.

5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only.

6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other

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7. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone

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8. Please do not address the response to a particular individual

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9. Due to the large readership, all responses may not be posted.

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MODERATOR

Ram Ram

------------------------

 

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Posted
Posted

My question is that how to prove that there exists a super natural

power called " God " ? At least how to explain that. How to correlate

His existence with the character of the world? Children now a days

need more than belief to accept. Can there be any way vide which we

can establish that God exists. If some body says say :

1. Where is God I have never seen Him?

2. Who has seen Him?

3. How is He?

4. If I dont know how do I accept?

5. God is a term coined by elders to put moral shackles over us so

that we may indulge in goodness.

6. There has to be some basis for his existence? What are the logics

which point towards the existence of God? From where to pick the

thread?

 

Sarphod Tabalchi

 

 

NEW POSTING

 

Dear Sadhak,

Yes, Sadhakji, you are a Sadhak-a seeker of Truth,this is what my

Krishna says--

 

Chatur-vidha bhajante maam janh sukrutinorjuna!

Aarto jijnasuj-arthaarthi jnaani cha bharatarshabha! (Gita 7 / 16)

 

O Arjuna! There are four types of noble souls who worship Me : The

afflicted, the seekers of knowledge, the seekers of enjoyment and

the wise.

 

Gigyasu - seekers of knowledge.

 

The main barrier in not seeing God here and now is that you are

using wrong tool my dear.You want to see God through yr mind, which

itself is Asat.A traveller of Gyaan Marg, must know the difference

between Sat and Asat.He must disconnect himself from everything

which is Asat(temporary, everchanging). He needs to drop/disconnect

himself from everything-the world, its relations, his own body,

senses, mind, intellect, ego..... When everything is dropped there

remains NOTHING.Just Nothing...simply Nothing.....

From that NOTHING emerges Peace, Love and Bliss. From that Nothing

emerges EVRYTHING... This is the beauty of Gyaan Yoga.

 

And the most wonderful,the most amazing truth about my beloved

Krishna is---He(God) becomes whatever you want Him to be. When we

see HIM as our protector, He rushes to rescue us as in the case of

Dropadi, when we see Him as our Friend, He becomes our friend as in

the case of Sudama, when we accept HIM as all powerful miraculous

being, miracles start unfolding in our lives.When we see HIM in a

statue, he becomes motionless. He is everywhere in all forms,and

without forms too, just we are unable to see him due to our own

limited vision.

When we accept HIM as our Guide and Guru, like Arjuna did, and wish

to see HIS Vishwaroopa, He bestow us divine vision and we see Him in

everything, everywhere. I see many people saying God does not exist,

money is God..ect, etc. So what, He does not hesitate to become non

existence for them, still showering His Love....No discrimination in

His regime.

 

He just " IS " . I love Swamiji the way He describes HIM. Somewhere

Swamiji said-He IS or He IS NOT, this " IS " remains the same in both

the statement(nahi main bhi hai or hai main bhi hai).wow...How

blessed this human form is!!!

 

How divine this forum is!!!

Lets be Love, Peace and Bliss !

Shivoham! Shivoham!!

With lots of Love,

A Sadhika

Sadhna Karigar

------------------------------

 

1. Where is God I have never seen Him? You cant see HIM as HE is an

object. Have you seen Saturn planet? How do you belive that

scientist? You belive based on Knowledge. In temples 2000 years old

there are nine planets know as Nava Graha. How they saints knew

without scientific proof.

2. Who has seen Him? 100 `s of saints.

3. How is He? HE is formless and with form or any form HIS devote

needs.

4. If I dont know how do I accept? If you dont know, try to know.

Still your if you fail- It Gods will.

5. God is a term coined by elders to put moral shackles over us so

that we may indulge in goodness. Why your parents put morals as

shakles to put you good charactor. So is God put. Just understand

it. If you think shackles you are mistaking. If you think guidance

you will progress.

6. There has to be some basis for his existence? What are the logics

which point towards the existence of God? From where to pick the

thread? Nine planets and earth are in space floating. Who made them?

You want to make something you gather material and put your effort

to make project. So there is someone who is behind all and your

thinking capacity. Otherwise could be a lay man.

Jai Sri Krishna

baiya sathyanarayan

------------------------------

Pranam

 

God exists. If you want solid evidence I recommend you search

on " milkmiracle " You will see for your self.

 

bvm

Jai Shree Ram

------------------------------

 

Dear Mumukshus (those who yearn for Divinity), Namaste. For those

who yearn for Divinity's Peak Experience, no such doubt arises; in

fact their question would be why shd they have doubt in God!

Doubting God takes one nowhere.

 

Trying to reach the divinity is the correct way. There is no proof

of the dreams we have very regularLy. They don't 'exist' in the

sense of all these existing objects, you see.

 

WHERE IS GOD WHOM I DON'T SEE:

Do you 'see' the radio waves, electricity, magnetism? Do you see

love, hatred, jealousy? Do they not exist? Why all shd be visible?

 

WHO HAS SEEN HIM?

A lot of people have 'witnessed' 'Him to whom the divinity has

revealed 'itself'.

 

WHO IS HE? - HOW IS HE LIKE?

He is She and is That. One form for one thing is inapplicable in

that experience of visioning the Reality which is The Absolute among

the experiences.

 

IF I DON'T KNOW HOW DO I ACCEPT?

The dead people, unborn people, people who are far away - you can't

see them. Do you lose belief in such invisible all? Be honest in

answering these abstract questions.

 

GOD IS A SCHAKLE . . . GOODNESS.

God is not directly linked to morality, goodness, honesty, kindness

etc which we teach for our youngsters to whom we want good future

and for building in them the moral character which saves our

society. All honest people won't see God; no dishonest person can

see God.

 

THERE HAS TO BE SOME BASIS FOR THE EXISTENCE OF GOD. WHAT ARE THE

LOGICS FOR THE EXISTENCE OF GOD? FROM WHERE TO PICK THE THREAD?

We do ask for proofs for the objective things only. God as

transcendental baffles those objectives. There is no harm in the

disbelief about God. But missing a chance of His experience while

born as human beings is to miss a great opportunity. We do all those

things of happiness. enjoying etc for which we can afford. We can

afford to have a Peak Experience in this human life. Why not try?

If you surf the Youtube on the Internet, try among them the

spiritual masters' sayings. Ramana Maharshi, Nisargadutta

Maharaj . . there are scores of them who are the proofs of God.

You may want to read Tony Parsons book, 'The Open Secret'.

 

I am not glorifying him or anybody in this context. I wanted to

share with people who are seekers like me. I wish all our people the

best of luck during this Christmas and Happiness in the New Year.

 

Dr Shastry

--------------------------------

1. Where is God I have never seen Him? You cant see HIM as HE is NOT

an object. Have you seen Saturn planet? How do you belive that

scientist? You believe based on Knowledge. In temples 2000 years old

there are nine planets know as Nava Graha. How they saints knew

without scientific proof.

2. Who has seen Him? 100 `s of saints. In Duryodhan Shaba when Sri

Krishna took Virat roop, everyone folded their hand and seen HIM as

God except Duryodhan who told it was illusion.

3. How is He? HE is formless and with form or any form HIS devote

needs.

4. If I dont know how do I accept? If you dont know, try to know.

Still your if you fail- It Gods will. Yasodha accepted Sri Krishna

with love and compassion, so she tie HIM up with rope to a roller.

Duryodhan wanted to tie up Sri krishna who took Virat roop unable to

tie up. It is the way you accept.

Jai Sri Krishna

 

baiya sathyanarayan

 

PRIOR POSTING

Jai Hanuman

 

I agree entirely with Usha Sridhar. Dear Sister! Keep writing

regularly . You are precise, accurate and perfect. So is Sister

Anita- absolutely correct and " really " .practical and therefore on

the path of Gita 7:19 ! Welcome Brother Wilson ! Welcome Ram Bhai !

O Daddy the Great ! Let such " Divinity " continue flowing unto this

GT Group ! So Pleasing ! So unbelievable !! So many reasons to

exclaim with pleasure- " Brilliant " !

 

Thanks Sarphod ! How is your Begum Sahibaa ! It is a sin to make her

cry- Get me ? SIN - I say! Do you understand what is sin? " Anguish

of your soul " is most of the times " your sin " - also ! Almost

Always!

 

Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj would often say that what is the proof

that Mr X is your father - BASED ON YOUR PERSONAL/ INDIVIDUAL/

REMEMBERED/EXPERIENTIAL- " KNOWLEDGE " ?

 

No body, come what may, has been able to " prove " in the past, nor

can they do so in the present , nor will they be able to " prove "

that in the future ! Nor can there be any possibility of proving

that. If you can't " prove " the existence of your even this father on

earth, how can you prove the existence of your " eternal father " ?

 

Reason: " Self " Proven ! Obvious !! Beyond Mind/ Intellect/Ego !

 

" Acceptance " / " Faith " / " Belief " - is the only remedy. If some body

wants to argue on this - Come On !! Hats off to you Brother

Wilson !! Please keep contributing and participating in this

Satsanga forum!

 

Mike Bhaiyya ! I gleefully noted three things in your latest

message -

 

1 An Aussie !

2 Clever 'little' dialogue!! ( Jeeva -Maya - Jagdish. Maya is in the

center. Noted that Brother? Between the two ! )

 

Above all -

 

3 Flowers in the Sky !!!!

 

(What an effort by You? What a research ! How well read , indeed !

So difficult! Yet so obvious ! So handy ! So quick - within hours of

posting the 'little dialogue' ! So Self Proven ! So inaccessible !

Yet so easily available !

 

But available in the universe to whom ? Available why ? How timely

and exactly ?

 

Sure, the poem was already existing in this creation / uiniverse for

a long long time- it was not Mike Keenor made- but what about its

manifestation !! )

 

Thanks indeed ! Unbelievable! " DIVINE " !! Do you get us Mr

Sarphod? - We are Sadhaks ! Only " Sadhaks " !

 

Namaste Jee

Jee Jee

Shashikala

---

 

Dear Vyasji,

 

You have answered beautifully. But, the problem is that Tabalchi ji

is more interested in getting 'brilliant' and similar appreciatory

comments from others (as is evident from his second mail).

 

Before trying to know God (Where is God I have never seen Him? is

Tabalchi ji's first question), he should explain what he is. If he

knows about himself, then he will see God's smiling face. Again, the

problem is that Tabalchiji is depending on others even to know " ko

aham (who am I) "

 

May I quote from Shankara ? " KASHTWAM KOHAM KUTAH AAYAATAH, KA ME

JANANI KO ME TATAH " (who are you, who am I, from where have I come,

who is my mother and who is my father).

 

Kind regards,

Suresh C Sharma

 

PRIOR POSTING

Hari Om

 

One who has thirst inside, only can see water. If there is no

thirst, inspite of water being in your front, it is not noticed by

you. Similarly , one who has thirst for God only can " see " God, and

one who has thirst for world only, " sees " the world.

 

It is your desire which in fact determines what you can or can not

see- IRRESPECTIVE OF WHAT IN FACT EXIST OR DOES NOT EXIST.

 

Because of your desire for the world only you see the world which in

reality NEVER EXISTS. Because of your non-desire only you can not

see God who in reality ALWAYS EXISTS !!

 

Want to see God? Mr Sarphod? Develop desire for Him !!

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

----------------------------

 

Dear members,

 

This is the first time I am writing on this forum - not because I

didnt wish to comment earIier, but only because I am too young in

this stage - by experience and by learning.

However, looking at the questions raised below, I thought I should

at least share my feelings:

 

1.God is no external being - he or she is part of each one of us -

all living beings. So please, do not try to explain to children that

god is some type of other person. And therefore, each one of us has

the responsibility to lead a life which moves towards positivity,

looking at betterment, and not hurting people, beings by our act.

 

Seeing GOD - we all have. Only some have realised him. He is in my

maid who comes to work each morning, he is in my child - who hugs me

every time I meet him, he is in my husband - who lives with me and

has made my life complete. I have seen him in the rickshaw walla -

who stopped by me to offer me ride to office yesterday. I see him

every day in different forms - sometimes, I too do not realise that

it was him who smiled in the morning and made my day. Everytime you

meet a person who does good to you - he or she is a reflection of

GOD. So, see god in all and see all in him.

2.The world is like stage (as Shakespears has said) - and all of us

are in here to play a role - be it tree, human, animal, you and me.

And so is a child here to play a role. All our roles are defined by

this supreme power, whom we call GOD.

 

3. There are many happenings in our life which we humans are not

able to explain - all this we credit to that UnKnowable

force/energy - GOD.

 

Try to see GOD in your family - your parents, your collegues, your

neighbours, and all the people whom you meet - search for that light

in them and do a small good act to make them happy. GOD would be

there with you!

 

Anita Sharma

-------------------------

Maybe my use of the word brilliant, can be misconstrued,a little too

Aussie, it was intended as a exclamation of pleasure.

 

I know you are playing the roll of 'devils advocate', as clearly you

would understand, Maya and Jeeva in Jee Jee Shashikalaji's clever

little dialog.

 

Best to direct a single question to a Sadhak/Sadhaks.

 

 

See Zen poem below:(Emptiness in full Bloom).

 

 

Leaping from the Ledge of Infinite Regress,

The Unmoved Mover fell into Formlessness:

Pure silence echoed between the galaxies,

Eons of eons vanished in a second,

Withered trees bloomed in fires,

Polar mountains melted, rivers went dry,

Thusness scattered in sixty directions,

Space became Time, time became things,

Black Holes filled with Nirvana,

A billion samadhi mirrors shattered,

Galaxies snuggled within a single skull,

Many became One, One only, only One.

Then, the Divine Illuminatrix in All Beings

Opened Her clouded Eye, to see:

Flowers in the Sky.

 

With Respect and Divine Love,

 

Mike Keenor

 

--------------------------

Hari Om.

 

Respected sir,

I've studied from my childhood that mother

is our first GOd.

We can see God only through our mother,father and Guru.

Where is the proof that you came through your mother's womb?

If you can explain how you passed through your mother with proof,

I can explain with Krushna's Grace the true Krushna provided you

have the permission to see Krushna.

Rest in my next.

Hari Om.

With Regards,

Ushasridhar.

 

--------------------------

 

Jesus Says.

I am the way, I am the Truth, I am the Faith. Please read the Bible.

thanks

Wilson Kochukunju

 

 

Dear Mr. Sarfod & friends,

 

Since the beginning of human civilization, the question whether

there is a God (or Gods), has occupied the human mind. It has also

been answered by various people in various ways in all the ages.

But, the question has persisted till this day.

 

I have my own explanation. I emphatically say that Parmatma does

exist. The entire universe is within Him and He is also beyond the

Universe. He is so great and also so small that nobody can see Him

with his naked eye. He can only be realized. Regarding proof, every

living being and every plant testifies His existence. With his super-

intelligence, man has been able to do most amazing things and

created wonders. But, man is still way behind in creating anything

that is self generating. Every creation of God, on the other hand,

is self-generating and self sustaining. Reproduction is a special

feature of every species. Yet, every species has a life-time after

which it vanishes. Even this earth will meet its death some day. We

see planets and stars dying and new ones coming up every day. This

never ending cyclic order of creation, recreation, assimilation and

re-emergence is a glaring proof of His existence.

 

Yours sincerely,

Ram Bhai

------------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

Varunji, I want to thank you so much for speaking out to Tabalchiji

about I being not judgemental at all. As a friend and a fellow

seeker, I was suggesting, Tabalchiji to read as many times as needed

to grasp the meaning or at least ask questions to clarify points.

Most of us know that when we read or hear 2nd or 3rd time it makes

so much difference in our understanding!

I want to wish you the very best Tabalchiji. One day you may wake up

and find all answers about Truth of God, this world and " you " .

All sadhakas have provided excellent answers/pointers!

Wishing you the best of Xmas Holidays and New Year, my fellow

sadhaks, I remain prayerful!

Namaskar......Pratap Bhatt

 

 

 

 

-------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

-Shree Hari-

 

Sarphodji,

 

You know; the world as you see it, is a shadow of what it really is,

I once heard it described as seeing the reflections of reality on the

back of a cave wall, one has to turn around to see the glory of what

it is.

Most people it seems, focus their whole lives looking at the false

reality reflected on the wall of the cave.

Have we not all read about Yogis with extraordinary abilities? Is

this all lies, do such souls look on the doubters such as yourself,

say nothing, smile or laugh as Lord Krishna laughed, they have

nothing to prove , all the doubters have to do is turn around as it

were, to understand.

 

One great soul that I admire was Swami Vivekananda, to me he seems to

be a man ahead of his time, a person of great intellect, and a

spiritual giant. It was he that aroused the world to the wealth that

India had to give.

 

11th September, 1893: 'Response to welcome' address:

 

" Swami Vivekananda addressed the august assembly of seven thousand

people starting with the words: " Sisters and Brothers of America... " ,

and the whole of audience went into inexplicable rapture with

standing

ovation and clapping that lasted for more than three minutes....... "

 

If you consider you have a mind of sound reasoning, then maybe you

could read the yoga aphorisms, translated by that great Swami. (If

you require any translation).

 

Why does your Lady weep, is it because she sees the anguish of your

soul. No matter what you may say or truly think, you are in conflict,

do you understand ? Jee Jee Shashikalaji has hinted at it, other

Sadhaks have made the point also, things like why ask about that

which

does not exist etc.

Sadhaks have implied that they have been through that battle. I

have,

I will tell you this, how much you reach for Father, how much you cry

for him, the tears of anguish will then turn to tears of joy, when

your heart breaks loose from prison that binds it.

 

You may not understand what I am writing about, but one day you will.

 

With Respect and Divine Love,

 

Mike Keenor

-----------------------------

Dear Sadaks,

I have not seen God yet. That is the reason I am not silent. The one

who has seen God remains silent. Let us not make tell Mr.Sherphod

Vedanta/Upanashids.

1.Where is God I have never seen Him? To see a program on TV, one

needs TV Equipment, Power (electricity), and telecasting tower

2. Who has seen Him? One who has turned his body equipment as a

temple, Power of tuning (Craving to liberate) in mind, as mind has

electricity, magnatism, and telecasting tower (GOD) omnipresent.

Just one has to tune to HIS frequency that is surrender.

3. How is He? HE is benevolent to come in any form you meditate.

4. If I dont know how do I accept? Go on saying any name of HIS.

Eventually HE will tune to your frequency as HE did to Druva.

Jai Sri Krishna

baiya sathyanarayan

----------------------------

 

Dear Sirphod

 

I made a posting on your question. There was no attempt by me or for

that matter by any body (from the posts I see) who could give you

answers like you might be expected.

 

If you want to learn about God (accept or otherwise is a different

issue) you need to spend time and energy. You can select a Guru who

can help you. I do not see from your postings you have this

expectation, but the one below.

 

But if your goal is to dispute existence of God, there could be

anohter forum that must be working on such attempts.

 

By the way you can come out with your real name.

 

Venu Komanduri

 

 

PRIOR POSTING

 

Hi Sarphod Tabalchi,

1. Where is God I have never seen Him?

It seems you never tried to see God. Seeing God is not possible by

our physical eye. Those who have an insight of God only can see God.

If you try sincerely seeing God is would not be a problem. There are

many ways prescribed in our scriptures. First, Have faith in it.

Then after you never deny God.

2. Who has seen Him?

I see Him always and communicate with Him. Not only with God, I talk

to birds and animals. I can understand them and they understand me.

3. How is He?

He is always Happy. He never deny anything. He never denied my

existence. He wants everyone happy.

4. If I dont know how do I accept?

Dont reejct anything. Accept everything as it is. Never expect

anything in your way accept everything as it is. Keep God in your

mind if you dont know God. Chant Oh God Oh God Oh my God whenever

you want deny God.

5. God is a term coined by elders to put moral shackles over us so

that we may indulge in goodness.

If you know this much of God you should not deny God.

6. There has to be some basis for his existence? What are the logics

which point towards the existence of God? From where to pick the

thread?

First you ask your Parents who are patient to teach you the basic

concept of God existence. Once you have prerequesites to learn God

God comes to you automatically. Be Patient. Can you ever see the

electricity passing through a wire. A bulb is shining, Have you ever

enquired about the electricity which illumines the bulb? Think about

TV., Fridge, Air Conditioner etc., etc. whcih can not function

without electricity. Even you can not ask these questions without

that power unseen in you. My dear beleive in God is far easier than

denying God.

Lovingly, Krishna (Shobha) Das

 

------------------------

Wonderful testing of sadhaks by Tabalchi ji

We all must thank him for the excellent questions and for giving an

opportunity to better our understanding in the spiritual domain.

 

All questions have very easy answers. Excellent expression by all

sadhaks...in answering these.

 

But it is very difficult to satisfy the questioner on the answers.

since these very questions cloud everything....and become obstacles

to understanding the truth

since it is about knowing the questioner first............knowing or

seeing God comes much later.....

 

It has happened to perhaps all of us in the beginning and we may

have gone through this period.

But if we are able to contemplate on the questions with some

guidance, question begin to dissolve/disappear........and the

answers start looking meaningful........

 

So, Tabalchi ji and the begum sahiba could start with contemplating

exercise on the questions first

for example:

 

Q1 Where is God? ----contemplate on......where it should be? what

could be the place where it could be,

why it can not be hear with us?

Q2 Does God exist? ---- Contemplate on.....Who am I? ask yourself

repeatedly who am I?

Q3 Who has seen him is irrelevant? My seeing is important so

contemplate on questions - Why I don't see the God? Can I see it?

What could it look like? What should it be?

Q4 If I don't know how do I accept? Contemplate on What I don't

know? Do I know all? How can I know more?

Q5 Any other word other than God could be used for it. Contemplate

on: Is goodness gives happiness? Are moral values important? Why

we need to fear the word God to be good?

Q6 Contemplate on questions: What is basis of its existence? What

is the basis of our existence? What God must exist? Why prophets

have to come to this world? Who are these prophets?

 

See what comes as answers. It is a good learning

exercise......answers are within and we must practice to start

listening.....everyone has to do this for himself..............best

wishes......Thank you....

Sushil Jain

 

----------------------------

Dear Sarphod:

 

I have similar questions that you have.

 

Following is the status of those questions (mind you not answers):

 

1. Just beacuse I can not see GOD, that does not mean that there is

nothing like GOD which exists, since there are so many things that

exist and yet I can not see (ex: Air, Gases and so many unknowns to

mankind yet)

 

2. Same way as I have the question on the existence of GOD, I also

have the question on my question itself, i.e. I can not prove that

there is no GOD either.

 

3. Say suppose some one suddenly shows me the GOD, what are my tests

and verifications to accept him/her/it as GOD. Do I have all those

tools, a big NO (I am not sure about you)

 

4. Even if I have all those tools to test the existence of GOD and

all the tests are proved positive, then is it going to help me. That

means, do I have the right objective to find out this very unusual

thing called GOD? What is that single biggest thing that is

bothering me about finding out this GOD? Does it have the

seriousness to find out the GOD? If it does all the above questions

should be answerd positively. Or else, I am not sincere in my quest.

 

5. I might not have all these tools right now, yet I have the quest

to know about the existence of GOD, then I do not jump in to quick

conclusions like " There is no GOD, this forum is not DIVINE, etc., "

because that conclusion neither helps me nor taps in to the right

sources of knowledge. I will be just fooling myself saying " I asked

a question which this forum is not able to answer "

 

Just for the record, I remember in the whole known history of

mankind, only one person (Sri Ramakrishna Paramahansa) has admitted

to have seen GOD and was ready to show GOD to the one who was

earnestly with deepest intellectual anxiety and sincerity (Swami

Vivekananda).

 

The one who has shown and the one who was shown the GOD did not have

questions. The SOURCE and the SINK are in the perfect state of mind,

one to give and the other to receive. Am I in the equanimity levels

of Swami Vivekananda? I don't think I am and let me know if you are.

 

If you think you are, just stay there with sincere hope, A

RAMAKRISHNA will happen to you and your intellectual quest might be

fulfilled.

 

If not I need to get there before I start looking for GOD. Till such

time, GOD is tentative truth for me.

 

With a hope it might help you,

Sincerely,

Krishna (devangam krishnamurthy)

 

Hare Krishna

 

Sarphod, you have praised me by saying " I am very good " . FYI! I was

not entertaining you but I was questioning YOUR very existence. You

don't have any doubt in your existence still you cannot prove it.

Why so?? Have you thought over it?? If you can prove it (with your

logic/rationale) then why don't you do it?

 

Mikeji called you brilliant (I wonder why) but he has also called

you inflexible. But I think you have not noted that. He, Vyasji,

Pratapji and others have also given many points. You should think

over it, compare it with your logic and then prove it wrong. But for

this one need guts, because you will have to keep aside your

prejudices to think over others' points. Even if you are not able to

prove us wrong it does not mean that we can make you accept God, we

can only give logics/rationale.

 

No one can force anyone to accept God, especially those who do not

respect their father. If you cannot respect your father than how can

you accept and respect the biggest father (Param-Pita

Parmeshwar).Your father has deserted you and your wife also seems to

be upset with your adamant attitude, but you still don't have any

shame in admitting it. Rather than introspecting over your attitude

you are defending it.

 

Pratapji has not passed any judgment; it is you who is passing

judgments. Mike is best, Varun is very good, Vyas NB is making me

think. If these are not judgements then what is it? Pratapji has

correctly pointed out that you are not reading posts with an open

mind.

 

You have posted these questions only because your wife has directed

you to this group. This is the biggest problem because you are not

interested in knowing or learning anything, you are only asking

these questions just for the sake of it, just for a mere formality.

 

Mrs. Sarphod, please don't insist your husband to post questions. He

is only wasting our time and also don't reveal him anything about

Gita, because if you do so you will unnecessarily incur sin (Gita

18.67)

 

You cannot see God or feel His presence but you definitely feel your

existence as " I AM " , right? Then why can't you prove it with your

logic. I have asked 3 questions w.r.t. your existence but did not

get any reply.

 

Hare Krishna

Varun P. Paprunia

---------------------

 

Jai Hanuman

 

Mr Sarphod ! So you do not think or talk or desire regarding "

flower of sky " - because it does not exist. You yourself said that.

You can think/desire/talk about only that thing which exists.

 

Now this is the biggest proof. You thought about God. You talked

about God. You desired to know about God. You raised questions in

this forum about God. How can you do that- if God does not exist?

 

If you can do that then why did you not talk about " flower of sky " ?

As a law you can desire about only that thing which exists.

 

Answer now! To the point only. ONLY to the point.

 

You said yourself that you would believe in your parents even if

they were dead immediately after your birth, because there is a

basis. The presence of yourself itself is an indicator of their

existence. True. Now go backwards. Presence of your parents means

your grand parents were there. Go backwards and keep going. In the

end you will find one male and one female. Who were their parents?

 

God is " Param Pita " - our eternal father.

 

Clear?

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

 

 

 

----------------------

Hari Om

 

You wanted as to what is sample of God. Answer as given by Varunji

is correct. You , yourself, are " sample " of God ! Because like God,

you are also permanent and faultless. Everybody " experiences " that -

I EXIST. ( You talked about experiencing- I am talking about

experience only) . Do you have any doubt Mr Sarphod that you are not

existing ? You never have any doubt on this. You never conduct any

test to determine whether you exist or not. You never

experience/feel that - I DID NOT EXIST. About past you may say

that " I don't know " , but you can't say " I didn't exist " ! How can

you say so?

 

Why can't you say? Because you have never perceived your " self " to

be non existing. Non existence of your " self " has never come into

your experience. Even in respect of the daily occuring of deep

sleep, your experience never suggests that at that time you were non

existent. But at the same time you experience directly the

absence of ego, intellect, mind and body etc., in the deep sleep.

 

So you exist.

So He exists.

 

Now you are constantly experiencing changes/temporariness in your

body. Who can experience that? Only that element (Self) which is

permanent and changeless and who is looking separately can

experience so..

 

So you are permanent. You are witness. You are changeless. You are

not body. You exist both with or without body. You exist.

 

Similarly God is also permanent. God is also witness. God is also

changeless. God exists both with or without body. God exists.

 

So you exist. At present you are existing Mr Sarphod Now in your

body. In which part of the body you are existing Mr Sarphod? In

which part of the body you are not existing Mr Sarphod? In fact you

are existing everywhere in the body.

 

God exists everywhere in the universe as you exist everywhere in

the body.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

------------------------------

By summery of GITA: " Tat Twam Asi " or 'That You Are'

This logic is explained by Many in different way, as Jesus : " Keep

your self as pure as a Temple, so that GOD can reside in you "

As the world today is more scientific, we require proof by our

Senses.

No machine can prove Logic.

By psychologist EEG machine shows that Yog has a point when we gain

energy from vast outer energy when we Join our inner energy during a

meditative state.

Todays scientific terms were not expressed before. So we can say

positive Energy in us and arround is GOD.

This GOD creates and increases, but the negative energy will grow

only to destroy and eliminate named 'devil' !

The different State of Mind or Self is depicted in the Epics of

Ramayana and Mahabharata by the characters playing in the theatre of

this World.

The Conditions of Heaven and Hell are also due to this state of self.

 

'Tat Twam Asi' in definition of GOD as 'Bramah-Vishnu-Maheshwar' is

also what we see in us.

Psychological mind as Male-Female has in us as a Child, Learning and

Creating with help of 'Sarswati-Bramah'. Then as we are in our

Youth, we Earn and Run our life with the help of 'Laxmi-Vishnu'. At

the end of life our Old age, Eliminate and Destroy many beliefs with

the help of 'Shakti-Shiv'. Thus we prepare our self for the next

birth. The Energy, called 'spirit' by many, is indistructible and

change form. We can ralise it and can even see as Vivekananda(non

believer of statue) was shown by Guru Ramakrishna(ardent idol

worshiper). The idol is the Mirror to see our self !

--

Regards

Swapan PURKAYASTHA

 

 

 

--------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

 

Dear Sarphod:

 

I adore your persistence to what you think is right - that is a good

quality to seek truth. At the same time, I am a bit disappointed in

its lopsidedness! It is not clear what you want, frankly.

 

I have two questions for you: Are you afraid of " God " ? Do you urge

for " God " ?

 

If " YES " to any of these questions, you have a problem. You can't

stick to your current logical conviction. It is obvious that your

current logical conviction irrespective of its self-proclaimed

excellence is JUST NOT DOING ITS JOB :(. Your logical provess can

claim accolades ONLY IF it removes your fears and quench your

desires.

If not removal, at least a nominal reduction in their intensity is

warranted ... if your intellect is working straight.

 

If " NO " to any of these questions, I see a bigger problem. Why are

you confusing yourself with these questions. That " NO " becomes

meaningless just because you are incapable of letting the very

questions go! The very reason you are raising these questions prove

that you are infested either by fear or by desire or by both

regarding " God " . THAT IS EXCELLENT!

 

Then, it is " YOUR " primary responsibility to address the same. As I

mentioned earlier, your current intellect is incapable of helping you

out. Then, you have to make a shift in your thinking to inspect the

ignorance harbored within. Pardon me for calling it ignorance. But,

the fact is ... it is. Inherent fears and desires can never let an

individual happy. They create the turbulence within in terms of

themselves. The existence of miseries is proof enough that we are not

applying our intellect in the right direction. After all, it is

common sense that we do everything ONLY FOR ONE REASON - to be

happy. I am sure you agree with it.

 

The question is are you happy with these questions as such or are you

really interested in a possible solution. If you are happy with these

questions, be happy. You can never get the solution though! If you

really need a solution, QUESTION the very questions. That is the only

way out left for you to be happy. Do you have any other choice? If

you have, please pursue. Being happy is the bottom line of all

actions ... being happy ... being happy but nothing else.

 

Nobody can instruct you what God Is! You have to figure it out

yourself.

 

I don't know who misled you that this or anything specific " is a

devine forum " as if anything else is not! If you seek divinity,

everything is devine. If not, some may claim " divinity " as if the

rest is not. Please do not get trapped into such notions ... if you

really want to seek clarity regarding your question. Question your

questions ... TRUTHFULLY. You will see the end of the tunnel.

 

Again, PLEASE DO NOT EXPECT OR INSIST FOR EXPLICIT INSTRUCTIONS

REGARDING GOD. YOU WILL NOT GET ANY ANSWER ... UNLESSS ... YOU SEE IT

WITHIN YOURSELF! The only suggestion I can make is ... look for IT

within. Because, looking out all these years has seemingly remained

futile! There is no point in digging into others' psyche when mine is

not receptive enough. If I insist to continue, I can guarantee myself

of more confusion to come!! Because ... GOD cannot be held within any

" psyche " as such.

 

Anyway, just few suggestions to think about ... think about it if you

want ... ONLY IF YOU WANT.

 

All The Best.

 

Respects.

 

Naga Narayana

 

 

 

 

PRIOR POSTING

Dear " Sadhaks " (?)

 

Why my simple questions are not getting answered. Shashikalajee

asked me some questions, instead of replying to me. I , upon the

advice of my Begum Saahiba humbly replied to her. Now instead of

responding to me, she has given a conversation between a son and his

mother. My Begum is insisting to me that I should again and again

read that. OK I will do that. But let me answer her another

question. I have not desired to smell " flower of sky " , because it

does not exist. Sometimes I feel that both my Begum Sahibaa and you

Sadhaks have lost mind. What a funny question Shashikalajee has

asked. How can I desire or talk or know about a thing which doesn " t

exist? This is my basic fundamental and solid argument. Vyas N B is

giving indicators which require me to think. I am thinking. But the

best among you is Mike Keenor. He told me to remain solid. He

adviced me to remain tenacious, merciless and hang on. I am hanging

on. But then why Vineet Sarvottam told me lies? Varun Paprunia gave

him a fitting reply. Varun - you are very good. This Pratap Bhatt

is rebuking me. Why? What is my fault. On one hand you are simply

giving me round round answers. On other hand you are passing

judgement. Is this a conduct of a sadhak. Please reply to me. Or

say - none of you have capacity to answer my simple questions. My

Begum Sahibaa has already started crying. Have mercy on her at

least. But Mike praised me. He called me " brilliant " .

 

Waiting for answers.

 

Sarphod Tabalchi

---------------------------

We all struggle with these questions. The answers I found logical is

this: There is something beyond mind and matter. Some will call that

something Omnipotent, Omniscient, Omnipresent. Others will call it

random nothing. Another question one hears is why do I want to know

That Something. To Know, or to Control it? Here in lies the paradox

and answer: If it is to know only: He is right there with you,

within you: The Life, Love Peace. If it is to control so that we

control our surrounding: That is the struggle of Ego. Arjuna had to

see the Universal form to get over the final hurdle.

Jay Shree Krishna.

 

Hemendra Parikh

-------------------------------

Dear devotees of Lord Krishna,

The discussion is interesting. I learned the gita much better after

seeing the life experience of a realized lady, who had darshan of

Lord Krishna ( first darshan of Lords feet after chanting a sloka

from 10 th chapter of Gita for 30,000 times continuously for 30

days ). Her conversations with the Lord have been recorded in

Tamil, and can be shared with the group if interested.

With kind regards,

Sincerely,

P.Vivekanandan

-------------------------------

 

Try Brahmacharya ( the vow of celibacy in thought, word and deed, by

which one attains Self-realisation or reaches Brahman) and you will

see for yourself the value.

 

The Srutis declare: " Naayam Atma balaheenena labhyah - This Atman is

not attainable by a weak man. " In the Gita you will

find: " Yadichhanto brahmacharyam charanti - That desiring which

Brahmacharya is performed " (Chap. VIII-11). " Trividham narakasyedam

dvaram nasanamatmanah; kamah krodhastatha lobhastasmad etat trayam

tyajet - O Arjuna! Triple is the gate of the hell, destructive of

the Self; lust, wrath and greed: therefore let man renounce these

three " (Chap. XVI-21). " Jahi satrum mahabaho kamarupam durasadam -

Kill this powerful enemy, passion, by the observance of

Brahmacharya " (Chap. III-43).

 

If we are determined to attain the goal of life by leading a pure

life, we must keep this mind busily engaged in Divine thoughts,

concentration, meditation, study and service of humanity.

 

It is difficult to eradicate lust. But you need not despair even a

bit. Have faith in God, in His Name and in His grace. Lust cannot be

completely rooted out of the mind except by the grace of the Lord.

You are bound to succeed if you have faith in Him. The Divine Grace

is needed. God helps those who help themselves.

 

Until man continues to cling to worldliness, Paramatma cannot be

grasped by him.

 

You can read more about this in the " Easy Steps to Yoga " by Sri

Swami Sivananda.

chirag almoula

 

--------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

 

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

Tabalchiji, with all the respect for you and questions, I may point

out that no one can make anyone see anything let alone God if that

person doesn't want to see. It seems like you may be insistent upon

seeing God in the way you want to see.

Please forgive me if I am wrong, but as a friend I am saying. It

seems like you may not have read the postings with open mind, with

the desire to know the truth. Open mind doesn't mean accepting, it

means you must give a fair reading/hearing and then asking pertinent

questions or raise doubts based on what is read. Here your responses

indicate you have decided that God cannot exist for you if you

cannot see or have some logic to prove God's existence. One has to

see that " seeing God " means deep understanding of intuitive nature

in this context where mind being limited cannot comprehend. It has

to be prepared to be open. Our conditioned mind is incapable of

grasping truth.

Some of us provided solid logic, but it still fell short to make you

see the pointers.

I said one cannot say " I don't see God " without knowing what God he

is looking that he cannot find. One has to know what one wants to

see, right? One can say " I don't know God, tell me what/where I

should look, and how to recognize " . It is different than show me

God, right?

Once again, God is the Conscious/Intelligent Existence as reflected

in our experience of " I am " right now as you read these words. In

first posting, dialogue was used to illustrate it as a solid proof

one cannot deny.

There are ways to experience God for which senses-mind-intellect is

not capable like they are for knowing objects. Nevertheless, there

is proof of God more reliable than that.

But this point didn't make any impression.

I request you with humility to re-read responses again and see what

happens!

Namaskar..............Pratap Bhatt

-------------------------------

Hare Krishna

 

Okay Mr. Sarphod,

 

Let's put God's existence out of equation for a moment and only

discuss about sample/logics/rationales w.r.t. YOUR existence.

 

I AM

 

Well, you don't have any doubt in your existence, right? Your body

has changed and it is rapidly changing every second. But Mr.

Sarphod, is you also changing with the body? You are certainly not

changing with it because if you were changing then who would have

known the change in body? You are that changeless element who knows

the change in body. Isn't it? Childhood, youth, old age are the

changing phases of the body but you are that changeless element who

is witness to all these changes. It is a law that only a changeless

element can perceive the ever-changing element. My question - What

is the basis of your never-changing existence? If you consider

body's existence as your existence then you are defying all logic,

because body is changing every second!!!

 

I and MINE

 

It is a law that whatever is mine, it is never I. For example you

consider your house, car, wife, children etc. as mine but you never

consider them as I. But in the case of body you say 'my hands, my

legs, my stomach, my ears, my eyes, my throat etc.' and

simultaneously you also consider it as 'I' e.g. I am not feeling

well. You establish two transversal relationships with the body,

that of 'I' and 'MINE'. Whichever thing is mine it is always apart

(separate) from you, and that thing which is separate from you, how

can it be I? This body is also apart from you but still you call it

as I. Is this logical?

 

Mr. Sarphod, now I wish to see you. Can you show me yourself???

Ohh... please don't show me that body which you claim it as mine. I

want to see that Mr. Sarphod who claims the body as mine. In other

words, I want to see that element which you refer to as I?

 

Before that I am eager to know whether you have ever seen yourself.

According to you anything that exists is perceptible. So Mr.

Sarphod, with which instrument have you seen yourself?

 

If you have not seen yourself then, well ..... do you exist ?????

 

And at last one more question- Whose name is Sarphod - body or

yourself?

 

Mr. Sarphod, with your logics/samples/rationales etc., first prove

 

1. Your existence.

2. The basis of your existence.

3. The instrument with which you have seen/felt your existence.

 

Then we will also discuss about God's existence....

 

As Sarphodji is contemplating over his existence, in the mean time,

those sadhaks whose faith in God has dwindled with his questions,

they are requested to read this Sadhaka posting

sadhaka/message/2108

 

Hare Krishna

Varun P. Paprunia

-------------------------------

 

Jai Hanuman

 

(Shrimad Bhagvad Geeta- Marathi Edition- By Saint Gyaaneshwarji-

Chapter 13- Kalyaan- By Narainduttji Gaur )

 

Jeeva ( J) (We all- as referred in BG 15:7) :

 

Mom pls tell me , when I was born?

 

Maya , Mother Nature, Prakrati, Illusion (As referred in BG 7: 13/14)

( M ) :

 

( Irritated) What non sense! Is it some thing to be told? (By a Mom

to Son?)

 

J: If mother doesn't tell, who will?

 

M: How to tell you? I came only after you !

 

J: Typical Mom ! Means- I came first and then you? Surprising? Isn't

it?

 

M: You won't understand. Be silent and sleep!

 

J: Come On ! First me ..! And then You ...!! (How can it be?) Pls

tell me the story ! Please !!

 

M: I told you. You won't understand! Many big people even could not.

 

J: Ok ! Then my Father can let me understand. Take me to Him, please.

 

M: ( Curtly) Stop this song of Father, Father. Your Father is Father

only for the name sake.In fact, I have to do every thing.

 

J: Does He not do anything?

 

M: What can He do? He is old, ancient, poor fellow (eternal) ! Then

totally actionless! Absolutely non-doer! Neither hands, nor legs,

nor eyes, nor ears! Nothing in fact! Look Kid ! Whatever colour ,

form etc of the world which you are seeing is my miracle, my form,

my competence, my work ! Ok? Your Father has neither any form, nor

any beauty. What beauty He can impart to the world?

 

J: But all say that He is the real Creator. See Mom! Whatever is my

Father, He is my Father! Ok? His insult...??

 

M: Insult! What insult? Whose insult? One who does not have any

caste or creed, any family or varna, any city or village- what can

be His respect or disrespect?

 

J: How bad He will feel, if He listens to what you are saying?

 

M: Even if He gets annoyed, what can He do? One who neither moves,

nor walks, nor travels, nor laughs, nor cries, nor speaks, neither

any juice, nor any taste, nor any play !!! This entire

exhibition/show I run, Dear Son !!

 

J But out there on Gate (of the circus) His name is written, O Mom !!

 

M: Ultimately you will take side of your Father only. Afterall you

are His son!

 

J: O Mom of the Universe! Why did not you put name of yours on the

front gate of this Great Circus? ( The world)

 

M: How to put my name. This is the real trgedy. You won't

understand, Son. I, the creator and controller of uncountable

universes can not do any thing by my name!! (Ramcharitmanas- 5/21/4)

 

J: Don't be sad and sorry Mom! What is the matter?

 

M: It is very secret, Son! If by seeing my banner outside the gate,

if somebody wants to meet with me, he will be disappointed. Son!

Please understand my pain. One is lazy ( does nothing), has no

organs, is actionless- those who want to search such (an element)

person , they search Him merely by His name! (Ramcharitmanas-

1/26/2). But to me, even when I am controlling entire sentient and

insentient world, if some body wants to search, CANNOT find! Cannot

search.

 

J: Why not Mom?

 

M: (With tears in her eyes) Because, in reality, I don't exist. I am

false. I am asat. I am non existent. My " not being " is my " being " .

Whatever is not- I am that. I am no-thing.

 

J: And whatever is there, that is who? Who is that?

 

M: He is your Father, Son!

 

J: (In mind, talking with himself only, Son thinks/says - Hats off

to you Mom! When you don't exist, then this is the scene of the

world that even Lord Shiva , Brahma are afraid of you -

Ramcharitmanas 7/71/8- had you existed " actually " Mom then.....)

 

O my No-thing Mom! When you don't even exist , then on whose power

you run this circus called the world?

 

M: What to tell you, Son? I can tell you only this much that, of

Whose a mere flicker of eyebrow, I do rule the uncountable

universes, I can't dare/ don't have courage to face Him. I do run

this circus only on His strength.

 

J : O My Unconquerable Mom! My hundreds of Pranaams to you. Bless

me , O Mom! So that I may get my Father!!

 

While bowing and doing Pranaams to his mother, Jeeva became

tranquilised and then in the background divine music played-

 

" MAAMEVA YA PRAPADYANTE, MAYAMETAM TARANTI YE "

 

(BG 7:14)

 

He was He only!

 

Namaste Jee.

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

-------------------------------

-Shri Hari-

 

My dear Sarphodji,

 

A few points to consider, I have said I have been touched by the

Divine,(just one way of putting it), such Grace is life changing, I

could be lying or be mad,(I tell the truth), but I know just by

reading the things fellow Sadhaks have written that I AM NOT ALONE.

Some people come to Bhagwan with ease and joy others take the path of

fire so to speak, (the hard miles).

 

In the west there is an expression,'The Dark Night of The Soul', and

yes! If it is known in the west it is most absolutely known in the

Indian Traditions.(I think Arjuna's predicament reflects that),I will

stay using the terminology to which I am most familiar.

You say you are deserted, you are not deserted, the Brethren have not

deserted you, and in the Darkest Moment of the Soul, there is a light

shining, that light comes from 'That', which will wash away you

tears, 'That' which will break your heart so that you can be

mended. Your arguments are not solid dear Brother, not to those that

have felt the embrace of The Beloved. Your inflexibility, combined

with your determined search, may well introduce you to 'The Dark

Night...', the very ONE you rebuked the most, will be the one that

rescues you. I speak from experience not from books.

 

With Respect and Divine Love,

 

Mike Keenor

 

 

 

 

 

PRIOR POSTING

Hari Om

 

If sadhaks can concentrate on giving short pointers / rationale

which establishes the existence of Supreme Power it will help all

in being definitive, have reference material and it will also

strengthen faith. Ego, Intellect and Mind don't let you agree that

easily. And who knows who may need in the coming turbulent era of

Kaliyug, that is lacking in faith and belief. Let us get united.

 

From discourses of Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj (Taat Shree), whom I

have solely relied on for a number of years -

 

Every human being wants the following:

 

1) To " live for ever " . This is desire for SAT (existence). Fear of

death is the indicator of that desire.

2) To know every thing. No one wants to be unknowlegeable. This is

desire for CHIT (Knowledge).

3) To be happy. No one wants to be unhappy. This is desire for

ANANDA.

 

Any doubt Mr Sarphod? Now if there is a desire then the element to

fulfill that desire must also be there. There must be some one /

some element which enables you to " live for ever " , to be all knowing

and to be ever blissful. Had such an element not existed, we would

not have had the desire for the same.

 

Paramatma is SAT-CHIT-ANANDA.(Sachchidananda)

 

Raam! Raam!! Raam!!!

 

To be continued.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

------------------------------

 

Dear Tabalchi ji,

 

According to J. Krishnamurti " modern so called educated " people want

a little bit of intellectual amusement and therefore they indulge in

meaningless discussions about God and such matters. God cannot be

discussed in this manner, because That Absolute Truth (give

It/Her/Him any name) is beyond description.

Your all the six questions are like the enquiries of a " full

stomach " tourist without an iota of appetite going through the menu,

or reading it aloud with his co-friends. If you are really thirsty

you will not indulge in such childish questions about water, but

will try your best to drink it.

 

I suggest you read Uncommon Wisdom and other books by Dr Capra (a

physic scientist) who has quoted from our Sanskrit literature about

God, or read A Brief History of Time by Hawking Stephens (well known

expert on dark hole and universe) to know the concept of time and

space. At least do go through some writings by Nobel laureate Dr

Edington (a scientist). Only then, you can be a little serious about

exploring the great Absolute Truth. Become " jyan-vijyan-triptah " and

only then we can walk together on this spiritual quest.

 

Regards,

Suresh C. Sharma

------------------------

 

Sir,

You are asking the oldest question ever being asked. See around

you, a sperm has made you upto approximately 6 feet. Who designed

this project and process. Your father and mother only are tools.

Inquire within and get the answer.

 

surender syal

--------------------------------

 

Mitro,

Why has this God become famous as " HE " why not " she " or " IT "

or " Nothing " ? Today's generation will not believe in gibberish

bakwaas . The paradox is every religion, every saint says that God

is ONE. But even within Hindus philosophy we see thousands of gods

(many names and forms). If God is One then why all the differences

and the fights? How come? Ramchander Homma

 

------------------------------

I agree with Luca Brasi that I should be fairly replied. I have

asked a lot of questions. I want proof/logic and I want to know How

is that Supreme. I want sample. I want rationale. My Begum Saahibaa

also told me that I am head breaker like your Shashikaljee told me.

But I never agreed with her so far. I never admitted this version.

I am not head or skull breaker. My name suggests that I am mind

fixer. Any way how the name matters? I am what I am. I accept my

parents because even if I dont remember my birth, they remember

that. They know that I am their child. I can see them. I can feel

them. I can experience them. I can recognise them. That is why they

are my parents. Where is God? How can I accept God on the grounds

that since I did not know my parents at the time of birth and I

accepted hence I should accept God also. Children are children. They

dont understand. But I am adult. I understand. My Begum Sahibaa

could not satisfy me and hence she asked me to get in touch with you

She said you will satisfy me.I checked with her that I am not

satisfied even after, because I have MOST SOLID arguments, then

what? Even my father deserted me because he could not satisfy me.

She said such situation will not arise. If I cant see , I cant

accept. Prove to me how one can accept without seeing or feeling or

experiencing or logic or rationale or basis. At least I should feel

or experience. Even if my parents were dead at the time of birth,

still I would accept that because how can I come without them on

this earth. What is your answer? Pratap or Vineet or Mike or

Shashikala. My Begum Sahibaa said few things regarding observations

of Vineet also. Please reply- Sadhaks of this self

proclaimed " Divine " site. Dont go by my name. Even my Begum

Saahibaa complains regarding my name. What can I do regarding my

name Jee?

 

Sarphod Tabalchi

 

 

PRIOR POSTING

Hare Krishna

 

Sarphodji,

 

Not only can Parmatma be an individual he can also be a fish

(Matsya-avatar), a tortoise (Kachchap-avatar), a pig (varaha-avatar),

a half lion-half man (Narsimha-avatar) and what not!!!

According to Gita, not only can a devotee see God but also know Him

and also enter into Him.

 

Arjuna said

O universal form, O thousand-armed Lord, I wish to see You in Your

four-armed form, with diadem on your head with club, wheel, conch and

lotus flower in Your hands. I long to see You in that form. (11.46)

 

Sanjaya said

The Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krishna, having spoken thus to

Arjuna, displayed His real four-armed form and at last showed His

two-armed form, thus encouraging the fearful Arjuna. (11.50)

 

Lord Krishna said:

My dear Arjuna, this form of Mine you are now seeing is very

difficult

to behold. Even the demigods are ever seeking the opportunity to see

this form, which is so dear.

Neither by the study of Vedas, nor by penance, nor by charity, nor

even by rituals can I be seen in this form (with four-arms), as You

have seen Me.

O valiant Arjuna, through single-divided devotion, however, I can be

seen in this form (with four-arms), known in essence and even entered

into.

My dear Arjuna, he who performs all his duties for Me, depends on Me,

is devoted to Me, has no attachment, and is free from malice towards

all beings, reaches Me. (11.52-55)

 

Please give special attention to the last 2 verses. This will answer

your question of knowing and seeing God.

 

Yes, I have also read the same in Swamiji's book which your wife has

stated. I consider it to be true because I believe in Swamiji's

words.

 

Hare Krishna

Varun P. Paprunia

------------------------------

 

Hari Om

 

No! Sarphodji. Those who want to learn should read carefully and

should learn also to be patient. All sadhaks upto now have given

excellent observations. I have also given you logics/pointers and

will

continue to give you till you get satisfied. I agree with Luca that

there must be logics/rationale existing. It is another matter, as Mr

Vineet stated, that they are pointless once you proceed ahead. But

still questions are questions and your insistence , though, odd but

still should be respected. Your " Begum Sahibaa " appears to have

directed herself to peace. I wish you understood the hidden affection

in the in the message of Mike Keenor to you. Here are more

logics/pointers to you:

 

3. In life, we always find a higher person than ourselves. In every

field a higher person than one is existing. See around you, you will

find this statement to be true. Even the President of USA can not say

" I am the Highest " . Always a better /higher person than you is

existing. Now where does this " highness " end. If there is sense of

highness , then there must be an element which is " highest " . God is

that element. God is the HIGHEST.

 

4. You always need some " shelter " to survive. In the childhood you

need shelter of parents, teacher, etc. Then of education, ability,

wife, money, home, employers, what not. In old age, you need wife,

children, stick, doctor, medicines, health etc Sujects change but not

the need for shelter.. If there is consistent need for shelter , then

there must be an element existing of whose shelter is the ultimate

shelter. Is not it Mr Sarphod. ( You should argue on such in

principle

points. Check up with you Begum Sahibaa.) ? If you are thirsty ,

there

must be water existing on the planet. Now when you need always some

shelter or other, then there must be an element which can be

described

as " Highest Shelter available " ! God is " PARAM ASHRAYA DATA " Giver

of that shelter. If you take shelter of God, no other shelter will be

necessary,

 

5. We always want to be perfect. There is no doubt on that. But there

is also no doubt regarding the fact that we err. In fact " to err is

human " -this saying is prevalent on this planet from time immemorial.

Now if there is a desire to become perfect then there must exist an

element which is most perfect. Did you ever hear that there was a

difference of a fraction of a second even in timings of Sun rise and

Sun set? Is not everything moving to the perfection? Who can be more

perfect except God. God is the MOST PERFECT.

 

To be continued till you say " I am satisfied "

 

As regards your observation that " Nature " also creates/controls-

answer is that whether you believe that nature has " knowledge " ? If

yes, then that nature is our God. In our religion ( I don't know your

religion) SHAKTI is God also. But if according to you , the INERT

NATURE has no knowledge, then you have to accept God. Can inert

nature

take care of so many souls, operate Law of Karma, provide food to so

many creatures? If Yes- I don't mind calling that Nature to be God.

After all it is a matter only of " terminology " . If no then you must

accept that IF THERE IS DESIRE / NEED IN YOU TO BE PERFECT OR TO TAKE

SHELTER OR TO SEEK HIGHNESS then there exists an element to fulfil

that desire. That element is called " GOD/ PARAMATMA " . Logical ?

Does

it appeal to your logic Mr Sarphod? Check up with your Begum Sahibaa

and come back. Your arguments shall exhaust, not our arguments- be

sure on this. After all you are on GT Site !

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

-------------------------------

 

Dear Sarphod:

 

Wonderful! I like your guts to put this question across!! I was

startled to start with and even alarmed as I contemplated " thanks

for triggering the turbulence from which proceeds the peace as

always. "

 

Son goes to father and asks, " Father, what is God? " Father

answered, " Whatever drives your life, whatever sustains your life

and whatever absorbs your life is verily God my child. Think about

It! " The father was wise enough not to instruct what God is. The son

promptly contemplates in what his father said and came back, " Father,

fear drives all the lives. Fear sustains all the lives. Fear absorbs

all the life. Therefore, fear should be the god. " Father

remarks, " Good job! Keep thinking. " The son not knowing whether his

revelation was conclusive or not continues to contemplate. Son comes

back to father and declares, " Father, desire drives all the lives,

desire sustains all the lives and desire absorbs all the lives.

Therefore, the desire should be the god. " Father remarks again, Good

job! Keep thinking. " The son does not feel the conclusive

appreciation regarding the god - is it fear or desire? He continues

to contemplate and realizes that, the happiness drives all the

lives. Happiness sustains all the lives. And, happiness absorbs all

the lives. Therefore happiness should be the god.

 

Now he does not go back to his father as he has already felt the

wisdom behind his father's remarks. God is not something that can be

taught to, or preached to or transferred to anybody. It is the

notion within ... it is the imagination within ... it is the

deliberation within ... it is the understanding within ... it is the

appreciation within ... IT IS THE PRESENCE WITHIN in its core. The

son, accepting the challenge from his father to use the body, senses

and mind blessed to him, continues to contemplate.

 

He has seen the driving force, sustenance strength and absorption

power in the fear, in the desire as well as in the happiness. He

sees that the three divinities of creation, sustenance,and

absorption transcend the boundaries of his existential fears,

desires and happiness altogether integrating the whole universe of

knowns as well as unknowns - manifested as well as unmanifested -

mitigating the differences that were once prominent amongst the

three phases of life - fear, desire and happiness.

 

Then starts another dilemma - who is the god amongst these three

divinites that seem to determine what life is? Driving Force or

Sustenance Strength or Absorption Power? Again, he approaches his

father, the wisdom established within to contemplate on the dilemma.

 

The driving force comes first to claim the unclaimed post of The

God. On ruthless examination, the driving force starts wondering

aloud that it itself should have been driven by something else. The

new driving force wonders the same and so on. The driving force digs

up an infinite legacy of its own kind beneath lost in the oblivion

of the past. It returns back in frustration not withstanding what

the driving force could really be.

 

The absorption power jumps in next to claim the still unclaimed post

of The God. Again, the wisdom starts the same gruelling scrutiny.

The power under sharp vigilence starts whithering away to wonder if

it absorbs everything there should be something to absorb itself.

The new absorbing power wonders the same way and so on. The

absorption power piles up an infinite heirarchy of its own kind

above lost in the oblivion of the future. It returns back in

frustration not withstanding what the absorption power could ever

be.

 

The empty throne is still awaiting to be filled. The sustenance

strength walks to claim the post in confidence. The valiant wisdom

does its job with no resistance subjecting the life sustenance

power in suspension of its examination. The sustencance strength

which provides strength to all the life around starts wondering what

is the source of its own strength and sustenance. The new source of

the strength resounds the same wonder what could be the source of

strength. The sustenance strength keeps jumping from on fold to

another all around the universe that is within its control to seek

itself folding itself in infinitude lost in the vast presence. It

returns back in frustration not withstanding what the sustenance

strength could ever be.

 

Seeing the crest-fallen champions of life not realizing their own

true nature around, the throne of The God starts fading into

silence. The wisdom starts wondering in itself. Is it not the

driving force as well as the sustenance strength as well as the

absorption power all the time all around? Suddenly, the demarkation

between the three divinities that was once so thick and opaque

starts giving away to reveal the force, strength and power of

creation, sustenance and absorption in itself and hence in every

thing that is perceieved ever.

 

The realized wisdom gets back and declares. Never ever ignore your

fears. Never ever ignore your desires. Never ever ignore your

happiness. Ever be with your fears, desires and happiness as you

are. Then you see the unison amongst your fears, desires and joys

and hence in all your emotions, relations and existence within as

well as around. Then you see all the boundaries separating your

notions dissolve in the very wisdom where you dwell upon. Being what

you are in spite of your apparent variances of life naturally

transcends all the barriers built by your cognition across

everything to reveal THE ONE everywhere and everywhence. Then the

very post of God does not appear to be real anymore which seemed the

most troublesome question to start with.

 

God remains evasive till you drift away from what you are in vain

searching whatever IT could be! Therefore, my dear friend, better

pause in your frenzy search and look around and look within … be

what you are. Then God is everything … not just a notion ... not

just a faith ... not just a doubt ... but, everything ... EVERYTHING

WITH NO EXCEPTION. If you remain what you are, IT is all-inclusive.

If you attempt to search for it, IT becomes all-exclusive. In other

words, IT is EVERYTHING in your presence; and IT is NOTHING in your

perception.

 

Respects.

 

Naga Narayana

--------------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

Let us address one aspect of Tabalchiji's issues with responses of

sadhakas received so far!

To be able to see God, one needs to recognize God upon seeing

anything, right? If one says I don't see God, one is looking for what

one " thinks " God is in whatever one is looking at. For God to be

" that " it will be very very limiting to God, because what we think is

so limited even if it is some grand image of God. That is not

logical, right?

Now when Swamiji says Goenkaji and Poddarji had darshana of God, what

does it mean?

It means the deep understanding of what God is and subsequent

realization that " my God, there is nothing else but only God IS in

the disguise of the Cosmos " that sees through that individual.

The individual's vision has changed entirely, where he/she saw

objects of the world before, now he sees only Divinity in the same

forms. It is our experience that what we believe out there, we tend

to see only that through our being closed minded. Similarly when we

understand God, this " Understanding " opens up the very mind who sees

God everywhere, individual is merely a channel God is using.

Other aspects of issues will see later....

Namaskar............Pratap Bhatt

 

------------------------

-Shree Hari-

 

Sarphodji,

 

Great! You are still questioning brilliant!

I have read the responses from our brethren, great beauty full of

divine love. But I will stick to the hared nosed roll,(look past it

dear friend).

If someone asked me to show her an oak tree, and I gave her an acorn,

what would she say I wonder? Of course the blueprint for the whole

tree is in the acorn, one also one wonders, did the first oak tree

have an acorn or the first acorn have an oak tree?

Question 6 if resolved is the platform upon which all the other

question can be answered it seems to me.

I can only tell you how I came to be touched be The Divine, that was

by my search into paradoxes, like the universe, like the acorn.

I once mentioned a man I met in unusual circumstance. It was about

3am

in a large air traffic control room, very few controllers in the room

at that time. I was waiting to get clearance to work on a console(to

do annual technical checks). There across the room was this

controller, He had his headset on,(with a long lead), he was

performing asanas, (within the restriction), " trying to stay awake? "

I

asked, " no he boomed " , we started to talk. We had 'Much' in common,

we

developed a dialog from then on , it was he who suggested I read

Bhagavad Gita,(I humbly suggest you do also).

He once said to me with his booming humorous voice, " Mike if people

could her us they would think we're 'Lunatics'.

What we had in common at the root, was our hunger for the truth, and

the courage, 'to ride the tiger " .

We were an unlikely pair from a world view, he was a Sri Lankan, me

an

Anglo Celt, especially if one could here us talking, but we were

brothers of the spirit.

There is much I could talk of, but I must bow to the respected

moderator.

 

With Respect and Divine Love,

 

Mike Keenor

-

Mr Sarphod ! So you are a male as well as married ! Very good Jee !

 

It is a good habit to act in accordance with advice your Begum. How

did she leave you alone? Do you have books of Swamiji Ramsukhdasji

Maharaj at your home? Your “Begum†had those books according to

you.

Did you read them? Or your Begum only reads them? By the way did

you ever think about or did you ever have a desire to smell “

flower

of sky†? Why did you not think about flower of sky or desired to

smell it ? Reply. This is a question to you. Also reply if you always

believe only after “seeing†?

 

Let us know as to how you can get satisfied according to you?. What

methodology suits your mind.? How do you generally feel regarding

this world,mind, intellect, body etc etc ? How according to you such

a

big world is operating ? Do you think there are some laws governing

this world? Keep also giving your observations , counter arguments on

EACH AND EVERY response which is given to you. Otherwise how will we

know whether the cure has taken place? Understood? You can consult

your Begum also before replying to my queries. Always tell us what

your Begum told you and what is your own observation. Why don’t you

tell your Begum also to become member and start Satsanga? Will that

not be better? What is her kind name, Jee?

 

Namaste Jee.

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

 

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

Another aspect of issues raised by Tabalchiji can be answered based

on

what sadhakas already have echoed in their responses.

The most important thing is to know that God is not " something " ,

" somewhere " and " some times " . It is at the core of our being, an

intimate experience which is The Knowingness without anything known.

In otherwords, God cannot be known as another limited object,

nevertheless, is known as " knowingness " in us by virtue of just

being.

For example, if someone were to ask you, can you show me Love, Peace,

Compassion, Beauty, Goodness etc " out there " ? You cann't! They are

experiences within us that we attribute to things/situations etc

outside which may have triggered them. Some philosopher rightly said

" From the beginning, not a thing is! " Please, please, see the truth

of

this. We are connected to the world only through Being Conscious of

something or other which we conceptualize as subject

experiencer(mind-body), and objects experienced, both thought as

separate. Such division is not experiential.

Just as these experiences are not seen " out there " , but are truely

happening in our consciousness, God cannot be seen, as separate from

Consciousness.

Sun, for example, is nothing but the experience of light and heat,

conceptualized as " Sun " out there, for practical purpose. This is

also

true for all apparant objects of the world.

God or Consciousness or Atman, are also such conceptual words of the

most intimate Wordless Experience! They are good pointers though!

When people engage in services to help others who are victims of

disasters, diseases, violence, wars, terrorism etc etc who motivates

their actions? Unconditional Love and Goodness of the heart! People

who help to preserve natural environment, forests, animals, etc etc

are also inspired by the same Love and Goodness!

Can we not call Unconditional Love and Goodness of the heart God?

Are those who bring such disasters to " apparant others " also God, if

all is God?

They are also, yes, but unfortunately " they " have not understood yet

that they are!

In God's world, only God exists playing " others " , so who does what to

whom?

Try doing evil acts after understanding deep within that all of us,

nature included, together, not individually, are God! One cannot!

 

Namaskar...........Pratap Bhatt

 

 

-

PRIOR POSITING

Dear Sadhak,

Excellent explanation has been given by sadhak Pratapji....Excellent!

If the parents donot know GOD how can they teach the kids?

Swamiji says if something is lying in darkness we can take a deepak

with us to see it but to see a deepak(lamp) we donot need another

deepak. Same way the objects of this whole worlds can be

seen/experienced through the " SELF " but to know this SELF we donot

need anything from the world( mind/body/intellect etc.) Only SELF

knows it SELF.

1. Where is God I have never seen Him?

He is not HE, He is " I " . When we can see/know who am I we can

see/know who is God.

Indeed, You alone know Yourself by Your own potencies, O origin of

all, Lord of all beings, God of gods, O Supreme Person, Lord of the

universe! Ch10:15

2. Who has seen Him?

All realized people have known HIM.Some claim that they have seen

HIM too.

Swami Vivekananda asked this question to everyone he met-Have you

seen God ? All answers negative except Ramkrishna Paramhansa.He said-

" Yes I have seen God as clearly as I am seeing you right now. "

Listening to this Narendra became his disciple.

3. How is He?

With a single fragment of Myself I pervade and support this entire

universe.Ch10:42

4. If I dont know how do I accept?

Then go ahead follow the path shown to us by Swamiji or any realized

soul, and know Him first, then accept.

5. God is a term coined by elders to put moral shackles over us so

that we may indulge in goodness.

What's wrong with that ? Accept God ,be righteous and be Arjuna or

donot accept Him, be Duryodhana - choice is yours.

6. There has to be some basis for his existence? What are the logics

which point towards the existence of God? From where to pick the

thread?

Start with meditation and Gita. Follow the path shown by Him in Gita-

Karma Yoga, Gyaan Yoga or Bhakti Yoga. Establish yr self in YOGA.....

 

No one can force any one to believe. Kids learn by imitation. Lead

yr own life according to Dharma,and kids will pick it up.Before

giving them tatva Gyaan(absolute knowledge),its better to sit with

them and watch Ramayana, Krishna, Mahabharata and let them learn by

the character of our Sagun Sakaar Bhagwaan(God with Forms). If they

can learn from Rama or Krishna, they will be on right path and will

get their realization at their own speed.

with lots of Love,

a sadhika

Sadhna Karigar

 

--------------------------------

Jai Hanuman

 

Oye What a question Jee!!. As good as the name of the

questioner!! " Sarphod " in Hindi means skull breaker ! " Tablachi "

means he who plays treble. Unique Jee !! Namaste Sarphodji !!

Welcome Jee ! There is music everywhere ! Who kept such a classic

name Jee ? Father? OK, pick the thread from father only.

 

How do I accept if I don't know? Accept just as you accepted some

one to be your father without knowing anything about him. Don't say

please- " that children now a days need more than belief to accept " .

That, I am afraid, is not as classic a statement as is even your

kind name. Fact is that children practice only belief and solid

belief. They are masters of belief - and teachers of entire humanity

on this subject of belief. Poor adults need proof. What kind of

proof was solicited by you in accepting some one to be your father

or some name to be mine or for that purpose by " the children of now

a days " - say son of Sarphod Tablachi, if any ??

 

Do you " know " as to who is your father and who is your mother? What

proof or rationale you can give to support your acceptance of Mr X

as your father?

 

You asked " from where to pick the thread " . I reply to you that you

pick the thread from yourself and your Dear Father. Come On !

 

Reply now! Argue !!

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

-------------------------------

Mr.Pratapji Bhatt has explained the existance of God beautifully.It

is very much in sync with Sri Sri Paramhansa Yogananda's explanation

in his books- " Autobiography of a yogi " and " Man's eternal quest "

which i have read. Also the story quoted by mahalaksmiji perfectly

describes how to know God.He is all knowing and yet unknown.He is

the Devine Intelligence that governs all that is known to us.God is

indescribebable.He can only be felt in the depths of a pure soul.

Ami Chhowala

 

--------------------------------

I still remain unsatisfied in this " divine " forum. How and why

Paramatma can not be an individual ? Is there nothing in your

scriptures like Gita which says that a devotee can also " see " God ?

My Begum Sahiba states that she read from a book of your Swami

Ramsukhdasji that Jai Dayal Goenka and Hanuman Poddar

had " darshanas " of God. Was His statement right or your reference

of good Swami is right? Why do you say that God can not be known?

How then the desire to know can be fulfilled? Whether I need an

instruction manual or not is not the focal point, in fact, to be

fair to me, answer to my questions in simple and convincing manner

is focal point! None of the " sadhaks " are convincing so far. I

asked from where to pick the thread? The responses are unclear and

incomplete.

 

Mr Mike ! Incomplete, was your answer. If you believe you were like

me in the past, then make me like you in the present. Is that not a

divine task? Is that not the role of this forum? Logic must exist.

Pointers must be there. Knowledge cant be beyond itself. What else

we are doing at present except meeting?

 

Mr Vyas - When Your so called " Nature " made oceans, Sun Moon etc

and when Nature is supreme then where is the question of God? Why

cant Fire/ Ocean/etc are called God ? If yes, then how God is

beyond knowledge? How God can not be seen as stated by Mr Pratap

Bhatt or by Vineet Sarvottam ?

 

" Sadhaks " - My Begum Sahibaa directed me to you people to satisfy

my knowledge quest ! I expected better as I am hungry for answers.

 

Sarphod Tabalchi

--------------------------------

Such a question can only arise from those who consider gross body as

real self and not the outer sheath of immortal " real self " which

contains the apriori knowledge.

 

They see God every day but do not recognise THEE. The Universal God

is Tri-Ani-Pada- three bodies in One i.e. gross, subtle and divine.

Since the entire Brahamad is God, His gross body consists of " Sun

and Moon His eyes, firmament his middle body and earth as His Feet "

and His Head is in Heaven. Thus entire Brahmand is God. Most of the

people who find gross body as real, want to imagine and visulaise

God as a human being forgetting that human beings who live on this

earth are " Thy " tiny living cells. We have several billions living

cells in our gross body, can any living cell of our body tell who we

are?

 

But those who find human soul as " real self " have no difficulty in

knowing God. His divine body is the Omniscient Supreme Soul

(Parmatma) and His subtle body " Mahadeva " is omnipotent Supreme

Spirit prevalent in all animate and inanimate life/things. His

spirit is found in Shuniya (cosmic void) of all kind of matter

consisting of atoms with unsuspected vitality. Because of His spirit

prevalent in shuniya, matter is not inert.

 

Since Man is born in the image of God, human beings are also tri-ani-

pada. Immortal soul resides in our divine body, spirit resides in

our subtle body and gross instruments in our material body. Those

who consider material gross body as the real self will always find

difficult to know formless and ineffable universal God.

 

Incidentally formeless and ineffable Universal God is Brahma- name

derived from Brahmand and other gods in human form are Iswaras.

Iswaras are not the gods of entire mankind.

with regards,

Prem Sabhlok

 

 

--------------------------------

Dear sarphod,

 

God is in nature,he can only be felt.His power is dwelling

everywhere in the nature in the form of cosmic vibratioins .If we

can tune our mind with the same frequency by way of sadhana we can

feel the godliness of the nature.How a sperm can create a body with

life is the proof of the supernatural power of the god. So far we

are only establishing the things which are existing, but we are

unable to establish about the source of the existence.

Our ultimate goal our of life is to reuntite ourselves with the

nature from where we have come.Nothing extra to be thought about

god. Living close to the nature is living near god. But the senses

attached to our body always act against our realisation

process.controling the senses is the biggest challenge of our life.

Let us teach our children about righteous way of living ,think

naturally and live naturally.

 

with regards

Ramana kothuri

 

-------------------------------

--------------------------------

The questions of Mr Sarphod Tabalchi are basic questions. I too

dont believe that the Supreme Power would not leave any pointers or

logics of His existence. From where to pick the thread ? I dont

agree with Mr Sarvottam that God can not be seen by His beloved

ones.. There has to be nothing which is beyond the powers of

Supreme. One principle came from Mike's narration and Mr Vyas'

message that before " big bang " too something existed or that if

there is creation then there must be a creator. But how that is

exclusive prorogative of God only ? Creativity is universal symptom

and authority. Spiders are also creators as per Mike Keenor. Please

elaborate with reference to Sarphod's questions. What about five

elements? Are they creators? Are not these elements playing the

transformation game? I think more serious and direct discussions are

warranted on the subject, not just belief stricken answers. First

the logics/rationales have to be exhausted.

 

Luca Brasi

----------------------------

 

Jai Kali Mata

 

What is meant by " No one knows about time!!! " Also, I am unclear as

to how this is relevant to the questions asked? Is this idea about

time, emanated out of teachings of Shraddheya Swamiji referred by

him? Kindly clarify !

 

Bandook Singh

 

--------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

 

RESUBMITTED WITH SOME CORRECTIONS

 

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

You have asked -

 

1) Where is God, I have never seen Him?

Answer: Paramatma is not an individual that you or any one can

simply see. Existence - IS-ness (sattaa maatre) has been given the

name Paramatma. Otherwise there is no name for that Existence or all

Names are only Paramatma's (Supreme Consciousness's) Names.

 

2) Who has seen Him?

Answer: Paramatma has not been seen by anyone to date and in future

too Paramatma will not be ever seen. Shraddhey Swamiji has stated

that Paramatma can be believed, not known, nor seen. Beyond this

whatever anyone says, is questionable.

 

3) How is He?

Answer: How, where, when, what, why, such questions regarding

Parmatma are pointless. That which cannot be known, it cannot be

described at all.

 

4) What are you able to know " Time " (samay). This question has been

asked regarding time (whose beginning and end is unknown to us). It

is not a question about the watch or the interval. It is not only

you, but no one understands anything about " time " . They can say

nothing about time. Then why do you believe in time? Similarly

believe and accept Paramatma, it will be nothing but gain.

 

5) This same work is also performed by men through establishment of

laws. Just as all do not believe in the law, similarly, everyone

continues to speak and share for correcting one's foolishness, and

according to one's own convenience and conformance giving that

tattva a " form " . You too can speak about the same as well.

 

6) 'Existence' itself is 'Paramaatmaa'. Where can any supportive

arguments and evidence exist to establish the existence

of 'Existence' (named Paramaatmaa)? Then where is one to get the

support of this essential elemental belief 'ASTITTVA'? Reasoning-

deliberation-discussion (tark), proof-evidence (pramaan) can be of

that thing which we know. But Paramatma is not known and cannot ever

be known, then this reasoning and seeking evidence is not in

conformance to that reasoning.

 

7) Do you want Paramatma? or do you want an instruction manual or

an aphorism (sutra) to grab hold of Paramatma? Don't get caught up

in the vicious cycle of trying to find an instruction manual.

Leaving the search, become engaged in " Chup Saadhan " (Effortless

Awareness, Discipline of Silence). All quest, and inquiry will be

quietened, will become still.

 

Please kindly forgive any limitations in the expression / words

used.

 

Vineet Sarvottam

--------------------------

 

Hari Om

 

How to know what is beyond knowledge - is the moot question.

 

Logic/Rationale !! Proof !!! Sample !! Consider the following:

 

1 .Whatever we are able to see on this earth there is always a

creator /manufacturer - be it an allpin, pen, table, house, machine,

house, bed, watch, pen, paper, cloth or aircraft. Anything visible.

Then there should be creator of oceans, fire, air, mountains, earth,

Sun. Moon, stars also !

 

God is the creator of all. - CREATOR

 

2. Whatever thing which moves , be it car, aircraft, bicycle,

machine, computer, - there is always a controller thereof. Earth

also moves. Sun/Moon also move. Oceans remain in their limits. Sun

rises and sets perfectly without fail. There must be a controller of

them also!

 

God is the controller of all- CONTROLLER

 

Q BUT A HUMAN BEING ALSO CREATES ! WHAT IS SO IMPORTANT ABOUT IT ?

 

Ans A human being cannot " create " anything! It is only " nature "

which creates! You can only change the shape thereof. You can covert

gold into ornaments or iron into sword or utensil, but you can't

create gold or iron ! Only nature provides that. You can mix two or

more elements, formulate, change shape only. You can create . You

can " discover " only.

 

To be continued.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

-------------------------

Kindly read bertrand russel

Aranha Roy

 

---------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

Let us continue further on the subject and build on what sadhakas

have said.

Please, it may sound too intellectual, but it is not! It may humble

us!

Consider this: If we need to know/study any object, the object has

to exist in

the first place.

Even if we cannot know the object, we always know it exists. This

knowing of an

existence is prior to the knowledge of its nature, attributes,

function etc.

The Universe is a collection of objects, and can be said to be one

Existence

fundamentally. Individual objects within it are individual

existences localized

in space and time over which they exist, and change to other forms,

continuing

the existences.

When we say Universe we mean the Existence only. Even the word

Universe points

to the Existence first. How do we know such Existence itself? Only

by being

aware/cognizant of it, no other way. So the Existence is awareness

of Existence.

To see what is prior to such Existence, there has to be Awareness to

know

whether or not such Existence IS. Thus Awareness as Existence has to

be

beginningless! What is after the Existence, non-existence? no,

because to say

it, there has to be Awareness of non-existence. If there is

Awareness of

non-existence, IS-ness is established. Thus that which IS, the

Existence(without

division into many objects), is eternally free of time and space

containing all

objects(names/forms) in time and space by creating mind and endowing

it with

this ability in terms of thoughts/feelings. Gita in 2:16 says the

real never

ceases to be.

Such Awareful Existence has to be most Powerful, Intelligent,

Beautiful, full of

Love and Blissful which is our experience. Can we not call this God?

God means Such Intelligence as seen through those who serve, and love

unconditionally, those who fight for Dharma, the righteousness, and

those who

preach God's message!

Evil actions come out from not realizing the Truth of Eternal

Oneness, GOD!

Namaskar.............Pratap Bhatt

 

 

 

----------------------------

My answer is simply to a question which has been indirectly

asked: " Why can't I see Him? "

Because He is the Seer. You are what you are looking for. It is

subjective awareness.

The problem lies with the word 'God' because we then suppose a

distinct being like a tribal deity. No, it is Awareness, Supernal-

consciousness. This is the Vedantic way. Find out who you really

are, not how others see you, but from your subjective perspective,

and you'll find what you're looking for.

Rishi Handa

 

----------------------------

Wonderful expression by Pratap (Bhatt) Bhai

 

Further, a simple but serious exercise could help in understanding

this.....

Sarphodji, ask yourself " who is asking these questions? "

" Who wants to know God? " ....and wait for the answer....

see what comes from deep inside.....

 

but you have to have patience.....and keep asking/repeating the

questions....

In fact when you come across any such question, ask yourself

who is this who wants to know this, who is asking the question?....

 

and wait for the answers and experience that follows.......

Best wishes

Sushil Jain

 

--------------------------------

I am a believer of God. Like one person said in the e-mail below, I

went through that 'show me God to believe' stage when I was around

22 years - 26 years. I was God lover before and again lover now. I

do not really know and I do not think with my limited ablity I can

ever know. At the same time I am not blind follower too. I am open

to all these 6 questions coming from a logical person because I had

them before too and have them now too. Before - with doubt, now -

with wonder and amazement.

 

Knowing God is a long journey. I am on the journey, I beleive I am

gradually understanding the divine concept. I am understanding them

through others, specially our ancestors, Indian scriptures. There

are great concepts, ideas and explanations, there are trash also

amongst them. I am amazed at the power of those ideas and

explanations. They attempted volumes and spent 100s of years to find

God and explain the divinity. Can I really understand all this in my

life? I doubt, which is why its a journey for me. Can I see God? It

depends on. I feel divinity in some great people, in their ideas for

humanity - around me.

 

OK, when somebody asks the question 'show me God', what they are

asking us is 'show me Jesus, Show me Shiva or show me Vishnu'. I

doubt if any one has seen God in these forms. Unless the divine

power appears so for any. As for God in its full form - Can I

imagine the distance between the Earth and the nearest star (Alpha

Centauri - about 4 light years away). I cannot imagine that

distance - however logically I think. Can I see God then - which is

full of this universe? Impossible to imagine. Then how can I see

God, unless God willingly appears to me.

 

My dear friend, answers to those 6 questions need volumes of

explanation or simply experiecing of the divine power - depending on

where you stand on the quest for God. Its a journey, so please

discuss with people who have done the research (of your 6 questions

before) and experience the facts yourself. You still go through the

oscillations of belief and disbeliefs, but if your quest is sincere

you will start seeing light at the end of tunnel.

 

The above does not give straight answers to even one of your

questions. So thanks for your time, if at all you read through this

until now.

 

Venu Gopal

--------------------------------

 

 

PRIOR POSTING

I will come at these questions in a hard nosed manner, maybe I am

blessed as I too waved aside religions when younger but traveled full

circle to The Beloved, who I dearly love with my absolute being.

 

Question 6: There has to be some basis for his existence? What are

the logics which point towards the existence of God? From where to

pick the thread?

O.K. I would ask the skeptical young, (I will call him S. ), tell me

S. how did this Godless Universe begin? He may be a brilliant

physicist, good chance though, regardless S will start to talk about

the 'big bang', the question would then be, o.k. S. was there

substance, was there energy, and was there time, before the 'Event'?

I would ask S. also when this energy of the bang runs out what

then?, I would press the point home that the Great Indians

Traditions had a good explanation for all this many millennium

before the present time, and is probably a good guide for the

scientists. Oh! I would ask my young friend S. where did the laws of

physics come from? Apparently they are unique, the laws had to be

spot on for there to be an existance, that is what the physicist

seem to be saying.

 

I would ask S. one other thing, how is it possible for a spider to

build the perfect web according to its kind, without actually being

taught.

 

I would say to S., think about it, think about it, be tenacious, be

mercilessness, and be brave, let your desire for the truth take you

where it will, just hang in there! S. my friend I was once like you,

maybe one day we can really talk.

 

With Respect and Divine Love,

 

Mike Keenor

------------------------

 

Dear Sadak,

 

1. Where is God I have never seen Him?EXAMPLES Most children know

water is H2O (Hydrogen 2 parts and Oxygen 1 part) ask them them to

show hydrogen and oxygen showing water. Next show them Yogurt (Curd)

and ask them to show milk. Bigger children ask them to show planets.

Then tell then from Sanskrit slokas-- " God is apprameyam " that which

cannot be seen or known by senses as in case of above examples, as

God can be only known by Gyana (knowledge)

2. Who has seen Him? Like in case of scientist tell as per above

examples, so does Saints tell. Only a saint (Guru) can show God as

shown to Vivekananda by Swamy Ramakrishna

3. How is He? Slokas say: Aroopamai, Aksharamai. Roopam, Akandamai,

Viratroopamai Etc. No definite shape as HE appears in the form that

the devotee wants. HE is in sounds - Om, HE is like Sri Krishna/Sri

Rama Etc, Omnipresent (That cosmic energy filled in everything), HE

is in all shapes and forms.

4. If I dont know how do I accept? Contemplate. If you accept that

there is Galaxies then contemplate what energy is performing whole

universe, like in the case of any toy needs battery, car need petrol

or fuel, computer need electricity etc. Still do not want to accept-

Leave it.

 

Jai Sri Krishna

 

baiya sathyanarayan

-----------------------------

 

All questions arise out of answers. When one asks a question

either he needs a confirmation of the answer which he already has

or he is answering his own question. When somebody is asking a

question relating to God, first he has to explain what is in his

mind when he says or thinks of GOD.

 

Einstein said that the world is an optical illusion. We think and

feel that we are separated from the rest. This is an optical

illusion. We have no direct contact with the outside world. All

the sensorial data has to filter through our optical nerve and our

mind (delusion). So we have no idea of what is exactly out there.

When one realizes this he comes closer to God or some superior

knowledge.

 

To realise that we are the debris of God is the supreme

realisation.

 

The most mysterious thing holds the most important key. Death is

the most mysterious thing. Death holds the most important key.

 

When death happens. The soul/consciousness releases out of the

cage (body � which is always subjected to three dimensional view

and

linear concept of time and space), one will realize or merge with

God

 

H. Subair

 

 

------------------------------

dear pratapji,thank u for giving us such wonderful knowledge.person

like you are really god's gift to us.

bhargav mehta

------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Re: Does God (Paramatma) Exist? Where is the Proof? What

is the logic ?

 

Through that supreme devotion he comes to know Me in reality, what

and how great I am; and thereby knowing Me in essence he forthwith

enters into My being.

 

Gita - Chapter 18 Sloka : 55

 

Sundara Raghavendran

---------------------------

 

Deaar Sadhakas, Namaste!

When someone says " where is God? I have never seen Him " , that person

has to know what God is that he expect to see, otherwise he cannot

ask the question. The question comes from the implicit assumption

that God is some imagination, ideas, knowledge, belief, etc. in the

mind and what I see out there is definitely not " God " .

So it is better to rephrase the question back to What God is first.

When that is understood, all questions by Tabalchiji will get

answered.

Consider the following dialogue:

Q: Do you have a doubt about your own existence?

A: No, I know I exist beyond a shadow of doubt. It is so obvious to

me!

Q: How do you know you exist?

A: I don't know HOW, but I am sure I DO!

Q: Do you need any help of another person, scripture, or some

logical explanation to confirm you do exist?

A: Definitely not, even if they say I don't exist, I know I do,

because it is experiential within me now. I don't even need any

sense organs-mind-intellect to tell me I exist!

 

So, it is self-evident existence, of " beingness " we all feel within

us, and by which we know what is knowable in this world as objects

of knowledge. This experience of Being Conscious is always with us,

never are we away from IT, not even in our sleep when body-mind-

world are all gone no one knows where! But I am always!

I just have to find out that ultimately this " I " is Impersonal and

is of the nature of Existence-Consciousness which we call God!

Personal God of Bhakta appears in this Impersonal!

Based on this, I can conclude that God is not a particular object

among many objects we know through sense organs, mind and intellect.

It is THE UNIQUE and objectless EXPERIENCE!

It is like our eyes who cannot see themselves and yet know their

existence beyond any shadow of doubt because SEEING takes place

automatically by just Being.

Once it is grasped, it can lead to God Realization!

Namaskar...

 

Pratap Bhatt

 

-------------------------------

 

My dear Sarphod,

There is a very beautiful story from ancient times that I have

heard from my guru. Once, a king called his minister and said, " I

want you to answer two questions.....otherwise your position will be

at stake.....first, can you show me God. Secondly, what is God

doing right now?

The minister was in anxiety. He went home, began searching

through various scriptures....wondering if he would have a job the

next day. His small son approached him, and noticing his father's

perplexity, inquired, " What troubles you, father? " The father

responded, " Oh, this is not something you would understand. " At

the child's persistence, the father finally explained. The small

child smiled, and simply said, " Father, that is so easy to

answer.....just tell the king that even a small child can answer

these inquiries, and I will then give him my responses " .

The father had no choice, as he didn't know the way to

respond. So, when the child came before the king, he requested the

king, " First, please have a pot of milk brought forth. " The king did

so. Then the child inquired, " Is there ghee in this milk? " The

king said, " Yes, it is there. " Then the child explained, " It is

there, but you cannot see it. Why can you not see the ghee? " The

king said, " There is a process by which the ghee will be brought

forth, of course, first one must churn the milk into butter, then

the butter is slowly heated until the ghee rises to the

surface......only after one patiently follows this process will he

see the ghee. " As the king was speaking, slowly realization came

into his heart, that similarly, one cannot demand to see God at this

moment....there is a process. One who's heart is not pure, who

does not have love and devotion, cannot see the Lord, but He will

certainly reveal Himself to those who are willing to accept the

process of " bringing forth the ghee " .

The child then said, " You are asking me what God is doing.

That is putting me in the postion of teacher, and you as disciple.

So, is it appropriate for you to be sitting on your throne, if you

are learning from me? " The wise King immediately pleced the child

on the throne, and sat in front of him, ready to try to understand

his next lesson. " This is what God is doing " ....he said. " He is

taking someone from a low position and putting him into a high

position, according to the results of his work, and taking someone

else from a high position and putting him into a low position. "

The king was very pleased with the child's answers, and rewarded him

and his father.

So, one may say, " I don't accept such simplistic

responses " .....well, then, such a person will never see the Lord,

unless and until he is fortunate enough to get the association of a

sadhu, by whose association one's heart melts. When one truly

comes into contact and develops some sukrti by contact with a God

consscious person, there is no material, anaytical way to explain

what happens. It is beyond our mundane intelligence, our ability to

analyze. So, simply pray for the youth you are hoping to guide,

and gradually perhaps the mercy of the sadhus will come to them.

It is not a mechanical process.

I hope my words have been gentle, encouraging, and helpful.....it

is truly a sadness which we all share as parents if our children

become somewhat agnostic or doubtful of the underestanding of the

Lord's presence, and the need for ancient, eternal tradition. We

can only pray to be the best examples of loving, patient friends for

them that we can possibly be.

 

respectfully,

Mahalaksmi Dasi

 

-------------------------------

Sarphod,

 

Read Paramahansa Yogananda's book " the Autoibgraphy of a Yogi "

published by Self Realization Fellowship, Los Angeles, CA.

 

Haley H. Haynes

--------------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

In this posting I would like to build on my previous post.

We as parents must deeply understand the truth of who we are, what

is the nature of world and God first. Then only we can explain to

our children. I would shy away to tell children that because it is

said in our scriptures, you have to believe in God being such and

such.

 

We can begin on the path of knowledge with the premise. That which

always IS irrespective of time, location or cause, is Truth. Truth,

thus, cannot be denied and has to be our continuous experience

always, not some states we experience that come and go, rather That

in which all states of experiences happen.

 

In the beginning it may sound like intellectual, but understanding

of that which always IS, has to be our real nature, or Reality of

whatever we all seem to experience dawns on us sooner rather than

later. What is Reality, then?

If we continue to inquire, we may find that whether I am in joyful,

or painful or sad or indifference or even in depressed

situations, " I am " always present and " knowingness " of these various

situations I am in is also always present too, which I never notice

due to my attachments/aversions to situations. These situations

eventually disappear but not " I " .

What is the nature of this I that we all say I when referring to

ourselves? Whatever it is, for sure it IS! This ISNESS-I is the most

certain experience and is Truth. Even if I see illusion, I or seeing

is the truth. This seeing then is communicated as I see an object(or

hear, taste, smell, touch, think, feel etc). I and seeing is

synanymous as consciousness.

 

Now extend this to outer world. Regardless of objects we perceive

out there, Being Conscious of them is the only truth of our

experience. Thus, alleged external world is nothing but ONE

Undivided/Whole Existence/Consciousness(Absolute) in our experience.

Mind is given to us to divide the Existence into different objects

for practical and Divine play. When we come to this understanding,

our attitude towards world changes to one of dispassion, devotion

and to serve it as God, in whatever ways we can. We see God

everywhere our eyes fall upon!

This is God relization.

Namaskar.............Pratap Bhatt

 

GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES:

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related to Gitaji shlokas. Therefore, responses which further

clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be posted.

2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to

substantiate your response.

3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the

extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas

4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting

sadhaka's time.

5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only.

6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other

organizations.

7. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone

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8. Please do not address the response to a particular individual

since the message is going to the entire group.

9. Due to the large readership, all responses may not be posted.

10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if content

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11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth,

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wherever possible.

 

MODERATOR

Ram Ram

------------------------

 

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Shree Hari, Ram Ram

A couple of extra emails today.... clearing up pending messages.

From Gita Talk Moderators

Ram Ram

 

------------------------------

My question is that how to prove that there exists a super natural

power called " God " ? At least how to explain that. How to correlate

His existence with the character of the world? Children now a days

need more than belief to accept. Can there be any way vide which we

can establish that God exists. If some body says say :

1. Where is God I have never seen Him?

2. Who has seen Him?

3. How is He?

4. If I dont know how do I accept?

5. God is a term coined by elders to put moral shackles over us so

that we may indulge in goodness.

6. There has to be some basis for his existence? What are the logics

which point towards the existence of God? From where to pick the

thread?

 

Sarphod Tabalchi

 

 

NEW POSTING

 

To Respected Sadhaks of this really divine , perhaps the only of its

kind across the globe, Satsanga Group!

 

It is me, Dear Brothers, with my Dear Begum Sahibaa respectfully

thanking you all for gems of wisdom which you imparted to me and to

the world. An association of people like you, group like yours, is

or can only be God willed. Indeed, with people like Vyasji, (

extremely polished and never contradicting. Must be the one who has

seen/ touched the " dukhalayam " very closely, very wisely and won

over the same), Mike Keenor ( You are pride of the very humanity)

Varun, ( I am sure he is younger than many of us- his impetuosity/

quick reaction reflects that, but very clever and very organised-

Refer Gita 16/1 - jnanayogarvyavasthitam- an ideal young follower)

Pratapji Bhatt ( Spl regards for you, for not firing me back) , that real fire

brand Dear Sister of all of us Shashikalajee ( What a

sharp discrimination you have been blessed with ! ), Mira Dassji (

An impartial devotee /follower of Respected Swamiji Ramsukhdasji

Maharaaj), Rajaji, Baiyaji and dozens like them, are the jewels of

this divine forum. My heartfelt pranaams to Vineetji Sarvottam. His

comments were innocent and correct.

 

Thanks Again

Sarphod Tabalchi

Raseeli Rani Tabalchi

 

--------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

 

Dear Sadhak,

Yes, Sadhakji, you are a Sadhak-a seeker of Truth,this is what my

Krishna says--

 

Chatur-vidha bhajante maam janh sukrutinorjuna!

Aarto jijnasuj-arthaarthi jnaani cha bharatarshabha! (Gita 7 / 16)

 

O Arjuna! There are four types of noble souls who worship Me : The

afflicted, the seekers of knowledge, the seekers of enjoyment and

the wise.

 

Gigyasu - seekers of knowledge.

 

The main barrier in not seeing God here and now is that you are

using wrong tool my dear.You want to see God through yr mind, which

itself is Asat.A traveller of Gyaan Marg, must know the difference

between Sat and Asat.He must disconnect himself from everything

which is Asat(temporary, everchanging). He needs to drop/disconnect

himself from everything-the world, its relations, his own body,

senses, mind, intellect, ego..... When everything is dropped there

remains NOTHING.Just Nothing...simply Nothing.....

From that NOTHING emerges Peace, Love and Bliss. From that Nothing

emerges EVRYTHING... This is the beauty of Gyaan Yoga.

 

And the most wonderful,the most amazing truth about my beloved

Krishna is---He(God) becomes whatever you want Him to be. When we

see HIM as our protector, He rushes to rescue us as in the case of

Dropadi, when we see Him as our Friend, He becomes our friend as in

the case of Sudama, when we accept HIM as all powerful miraculous

being, miracles start unfolding in our lives.When we see HIM in a

statue, he becomes motionless. He is everywhere in all forms,and

without forms too, just we are unable to see him due to our own

limited vision.

When we accept HIM as our Guide and Guru, like Arjuna did, and wish

to see HIS Vishwaroopa, He bestow us divine vision and we see Him in

everything, everywhere. I see many people saying God does not exist,

money is God..ect, etc. So what, He does not hesitate to become non

existence for them, still showering His Love....No discrimination in

His regime.

 

He just " IS " . I love Swamiji the way He describes HIM. Somewhere

Swamiji said-He IS or He IS NOT, this " IS " remains the same in both

the statement(nahi main bhi hai or hai main bhi hai).wow...How

blessed this human form is!!!

 

How divine this forum is!!!

Lets be Love, Peace and Bliss !

Shivoham! Shivoham!!

With lots of Love,

A Sadhika

Sadhna Karigar

------------------------------

 

1. Where is God I have never seen Him? You cant see HIM as HE is an

object. Have you seen Saturn planet? How do you belive that

scientist? You belive based on Knowledge. In temples 2000 years old

there are nine planets know as Nava Graha. How they saints knew

without scientific proof.

2. Who has seen Him? 100 `s of saints.

3. How is He? HE is formless and with form or any form HIS devote

needs.

4. If I dont know how do I accept? If you dont know, try to know.

Still your if you fail- It Gods will.

5. God is a term coined by elders to put moral shackles over us so

that we may indulge in goodness. Why your parents put morals as

shakles to put you good charactor. So is God put. Just understand

it. If you think shackles you are mistaking. If you think guidance

you will progress.

6. There has to be some basis for his existence? What are the logics

which point towards the existence of God? From where to pick the

thread? Nine planets and earth are in space floating. Who made them?

You want to make something you gather material and put your effort

to make project. So there is someone who is behind all and your

thinking capacity. Otherwise could be a lay man.

Jai Sri Krishna

baiya sathyanarayan

------------------------------

Pranam

 

God exists. If you want solid evidence I recommend you search

on " milkmiracle " You will see for your self.

 

bvm

Jai Shree Ram

------------------------------

 

Dear Mumukshus (those who yearn for Divinity), Namaste. For those

who yearn for Divinity's Peak Experience, no such doubt arises; in

fact their question would be why shd they have doubt in God!

Doubting God takes one nowhere.

 

Trying to reach the divinity is the correct way. There is no proof

of the dreams we have very regularLy. They don't 'exist' in the

sense of all these existing objects, you see.

 

WHERE IS GOD WHOM I DON'T SEE:

Do you 'see' the radio waves, electricity, magnetism? Do you see

love, hatred, jealousy? Do they not exist? Why all shd be visible?

 

WHO HAS SEEN HIM?

A lot of people have 'witnessed' 'Him to whom the divinity has

revealed 'itself'.

 

WHO IS HE? - HOW IS HE LIKE?

He is She and is That. One form for one thing is inapplicable in

that experience of visioning the Reality which is The Absolute among

the experiences.

 

IF I DON'T KNOW HOW DO I ACCEPT?

The dead people, unborn people, people who are far away - you can't

see them. Do you lose belief in such invisible all? Be honest in

answering these abstract questions.

 

GOD IS A SCHAKLE . . . GOODNESS.

God is not directly linked to morality, goodness, honesty, kindness

etc which we teach for our youngsters to whom we want good future

and for building in them the moral character which saves our

society. All honest people won't see God; no dishonest person can

see God.

 

THERE HAS TO BE SOME BASIS FOR THE EXISTENCE OF GOD. WHAT ARE THE

LOGICS FOR THE EXISTENCE OF GOD? FROM WHERE TO PICK THE THREAD?

We do ask for proofs for the objective things only. God as

transcendental baffles those objectives. There is no harm in the

disbelief about God. But missing a chance of His experience while

born as human beings is to miss a great opportunity. We do all those

things of happiness. enjoying etc for which we can afford. We can

afford to have a Peak Experience in this human life. Why not try?

If you surf the Youtube on the Internet, try among them the

spiritual masters' sayings. Ramana Maharshi, Nisargadutta

Maharaj . . there are scores of them who are the proofs of God.

You may want to read Tony Parsons book, 'The Open Secret'.

 

I am not glorifying him or anybody in this context. I wanted to

share with people who are seekers like me. I wish all our people the

best of luck during this Christmas and Happiness in the New Year.

 

Dr Shastry

--------------------------------

1. Where is God I have never seen Him? You cant see HIM as HE is NOT

an object. Have you seen Saturn planet? How do you belive that

scientist? You believe based on Knowledge. In temples 2000 years old

there are nine planets know as Nava Graha. How they saints knew

without scientific proof.

2. Who has seen Him? 100 `s of saints. In Duryodhan Shaba when Sri

Krishna took Virat roop, everyone folded their hand and seen HIM as

God except Duryodhan who told it was illusion.

3. How is He? HE is formless and with form or any form HIS devote

needs.

4. If I dont know how do I accept? If you dont know, try to know.

Still your if you fail- It Gods will. Yasodha accepted Sri Krishna

with love and compassion, so she tie HIM up with rope to a roller.

Duryodhan wanted to tie up Sri krishna who took Virat roop unable to

tie up. It is the way you accept.

Jai Sri Krishna

 

baiya sathyanarayan

 

PRIOR POSTING

Jai Hanuman

 

I agree entirely with Usha Sridhar. Dear Sister! Keep writing

regularly . You are precise, accurate and perfect. So is Sister

Anita- absolutely correct and " really " .practical and therefore on

the path of Gita 7:19 ! Welcome Brother Wilson ! Welcome Ram Bhai !

O Daddy the Great ! Let such " Divinity " continue flowing unto this

GT Group ! So Pleasing ! So unbelievable !! So many reasons to

exclaim with pleasure- " Brilliant " !

 

Thanks Sarphod ! How is your Begum Sahibaa ! It is a sin to make her

cry- Get me ? SIN - I say! Do you understand what is sin? " Anguish

of your soul " is most of the times " your sin " - also ! Almost

Always!

 

Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj would often say that what is the proof

that Mr X is your father - BASED ON YOUR PERSONAL/ INDIVIDUAL/

REMEMBERED/EXPERIENTIAL- " KNOWLEDGE " ?

 

No body, come what may, has been able to " prove " in the past, nor

can they do so in the present , nor will they be able to " prove "

that in the future ! Nor can there be any possibility of proving

that. If you can't " prove " the existence of your even this father on

earth, how can you prove the existence of your " eternal father " ?

 

Reason: " Self " Proven ! Obvious !! Beyond Mind/ Intellect/Ego !

 

" Acceptance " / " Faith " / " Belief " - is the only remedy. If some body

wants to argue on this - Come On !! Hats off to you Brother

Wilson !! Please keep contributing and participating in this

Satsanga forum!

 

Mike Bhaiyya ! I gleefully noted three things in your latest

message -

 

1 An Aussie !

2 Clever 'little' dialogue!! ( Jeeva -Maya - Jagdish. Maya is in the

center. Noted that Brother? Between the two ! )

 

Above all -

 

3 Flowers in the Sky !!!!

 

(What an effort by You? What a research ! How well read , indeed !

So difficult! Yet so obvious ! So handy ! So quick - within hours of

posting the 'little dialogue' ! So Self Proven ! So inaccessible !

Yet so easily available !

 

But available in the universe to whom ? Available why ? How timely

and exactly ?

 

Sure, the poem was already existing in this creation / uiniverse for

a long long time- it was not Mike Keenor made- but what about its

manifestation !! )

 

Thanks indeed ! Unbelievable! " DIVINE " !! Do you get us Mr

Sarphod? - We are Sadhaks ! Only " Sadhaks " !

 

Namaste Jee

Jee Jee

Shashikala

---

 

Dear Vyasji,

 

You have answered beautifully. But, the problem is that Tabalchi ji

is more interested in getting 'brilliant' and similar appreciatory

comments from others (as is evident from his second mail).

 

Before trying to know God (Where is God I have never seen Him? is

Tabalchi ji's first question), he should explain what he is. If he

knows about himself, then he will see God's smiling face. Again, the

problem is that Tabalchiji is depending on others even to know " ko

aham (who am I) "

 

May I quote from Shankara ? " KASHTWAM KOHAM KUTAH AAYAATAH, KA ME

JANANI KO ME TATAH " (who are you, who am I, from where have I come,

who is my mother and who is my father).

 

Kind regards,

Suresh C Sharma

 

PRIOR POSTING

Hari Om

 

One who has thirst inside, only can see water. If there is no

thirst, inspite of water being in your front, it is not noticed by

you. Similarly , one who has thirst for God only can " see " God, and

one who has thirst for world only, " sees " the world.

 

It is your desire which in fact determines what you can or can not

see- IRRESPECTIVE OF WHAT IN FACT EXIST OR DOES NOT EXIST.

 

Because of your desire for the world only you see the world which in

reality NEVER EXISTS. Because of your non-desire only you can not

see God who in reality ALWAYS EXISTS !!

 

Want to see God? Mr Sarphod? Develop desire for Him !!

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

----------------------------

 

Dear members,

 

This is the first time I am writing on this forum - not because I

didnt wish to comment earIier, but only because I am too young in

this stage - by experience and by learning.

However, looking at the questions raised below, I thought I should

at least share my feelings:

 

1.God is no external being - he or she is part of each one of us -

all living beings. So please, do not try to explain to children that

god is some type of other person. And therefore, each one of us has

the responsibility to lead a life which moves towards positivity,

looking at betterment, and not hurting people, beings by our act.

 

Seeing GOD - we all have. Only some have realised him. He is in my

maid who comes to work each morning, he is in my child - who hugs me

every time I meet him, he is in my husband - who lives with me and

has made my life complete. I have seen him in the rickshaw walla -

who stopped by me to offer me ride to office yesterday. I see him

every day in different forms - sometimes, I too do not realise that

it was him who smiled in the morning and made my day. Everytime you

meet a person who does good to you - he or she is a reflection of

GOD. So, see god in all and see all in him.

2.The world is like stage (as Shakespears has said) - and all of us

are in here to play a role - be it tree, human, animal, you and me.

And so is a child here to play a role. All our roles are defined by

this supreme power, whom we call GOD.

 

3. There are many happenings in our life which we humans are not

able to explain - all this we credit to that UnKnowable

force/energy - GOD.

 

Try to see GOD in your family - your parents, your collegues, your

neighbours, and all the people whom you meet - search for that light

in them and do a small good act to make them happy. GOD would be

there with you!

 

Anita Sharma

-------------------------

Maybe my use of the word brilliant, can be misconstrued,a little too

Aussie, it was intended as a exclamation of pleasure.

 

I know you are playing the roll of 'devils advocate', as clearly you

would understand, Maya and Jeeva in Jee Jee Shashikalaji's clever

little dialog.

 

Best to direct a single question to a Sadhak/Sadhaks.

 

 

See Zen poem below:(Emptiness in full Bloom).

 

 

Leaping from the Ledge of Infinite Regress,

The Unmoved Mover fell into Formlessness:

Pure silence echoed between the galaxies,

Eons of eons vanished in a second,

Withered trees bloomed in fires,

Polar mountains melted, rivers went dry,

Thusness scattered in sixty directions,

Space became Time, time became things,

Black Holes filled with Nirvana,

A billion samadhi mirrors shattered,

Galaxies snuggled within a single skull,

Many became One, One only, only One.

Then, the Divine Illuminatrix in All Beings

Opened Her clouded Eye, to see:

Flowers in the Sky.

 

With Respect and Divine Love,

 

Mike Keenor

 

--------------------------

Hari Om.

 

Respected sir,

I've studied from my childhood that mother

is our first GOd.

We can see God only through our mother,father and Guru.

Where is the proof that you came through your mother's womb?

If you can explain how you passed through your mother with proof,

I can explain with Krushna's Grace the true Krushna provided you

have the permission to see Krushna.

Rest in my next.

Hari Om.

With Regards,

Ushasridhar.

 

--------------------------

 

Jesus Says.

I am the way, I am the Truth, I am the Faith. Please read the Bible.

thanks

Wilson Kochukunju

 

 

Dear Mr. Sarfod & friends,

 

Since the beginning of human civilization, the question whether

there is a God (or Gods), has occupied the human mind. It has also

been answered by various people in various ways in all the ages.

But, the question has persisted till this day.

 

I have my own explanation. I emphatically say that Parmatma does

exist. The entire universe is within Him and He is also beyond the

Universe. He is so great and also so small that nobody can see Him

with his naked eye. He can only be realized. Regarding proof, every

living being and every plant testifies His existence. With his super-

intelligence, man has been able to do most amazing things and

created wonders. But, man is still way behind in creating anything

that is self generating. Every creation of God, on the other hand,

is self-generating and self sustaining. Reproduction is a special

feature of every species. Yet, every species has a life-time after

which it vanishes. Even this earth will meet its death some day. We

see planets and stars dying and new ones coming up every day. This

never ending cyclic order of creation, recreation, assimilation and

re-emergence is a glaring proof of His existence.

 

Yours sincerely,

Ram Bhai

------------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

Varunji, I want to thank you so much for speaking out to Tabalchiji

about I being not judgemental at all. As a friend and a fellow

seeker, I was suggesting, Tabalchiji to read as many times as needed

to grasp the meaning or at least ask questions to clarify points.

Most of us know that when we read or hear 2nd or 3rd time it makes

so much difference in our understanding!

I want to wish you the very best Tabalchiji. One day you may wake up

and find all answers about Truth of God, this world and " you " .

All sadhakas have provided excellent answers/pointers!

Wishing you the best of Xmas Holidays and New Year, my fellow

sadhaks, I remain prayerful!

Namaskar......Pratap Bhatt

 

 

 

 

-------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

-Shree Hari-

 

Sarphodji,

 

You know; the world as you see it, is a shadow of what it really is,

I once heard it described as seeing the reflections of reality on the

back of a cave wall, one has to turn around to see the glory of what

it is.

Most people it seems, focus their whole lives looking at the false

reality reflected on the wall of the cave.

Have we not all read about Yogis with extraordinary abilities? Is

this all lies, do such souls look on the doubters such as yourself,

say nothing, smile or laugh as Lord Krishna laughed, they have

nothing to prove , all the doubters have to do is turn around as it

were, to understand.

 

One great soul that I admire was Swami Vivekananda, to me he seems to

be a man ahead of his time, a person of great intellect, and a

spiritual giant. It was he that aroused the world to the wealth that

India had to give.

 

11th September, 1893: 'Response to welcome' address:

 

" Swami Vivekananda addressed the august assembly of seven thousand

people starting with the words: " Sisters and Brothers of America... " ,

and the whole of audience went into inexplicable rapture with

standing

ovation and clapping that lasted for more than three minutes....... "

 

If you consider you have a mind of sound reasoning, then maybe you

could read the yoga aphorisms, translated by that great Swami. (If

you require any translation).

 

Why does your Lady weep, is it because she sees the anguish of your

soul. No matter what you may say or truly think, you are in conflict,

do you understand ? Jee Jee Shashikalaji has hinted at it, other

Sadhaks have made the point also, things like why ask about that

which

does not exist etc.

Sadhaks have implied that they have been through that battle. I

have,

I will tell you this, how much you reach for Father, how much you cry

for him, the tears of anguish will then turn to tears of joy, when

your heart breaks loose from prison that binds it.

 

You may not understand what I am writing about, but one day you will.

 

With Respect and Divine Love,

 

Mike Keenor

-----------------------------

Dear Sadaks,

I have not seen God yet. That is the reason I am not silent. The one

who has seen God remains silent. Let us not make tell Mr.Sherphod

Vedanta/Upanashids.

1.Where is God I have never seen Him? To see a program on TV, one

needs TV Equipment, Power (electricity), and telecasting tower

2. Who has seen Him? One who has turned his body equipment as a

temple, Power of tuning (Craving to liberate) in mind, as mind has

electricity, magnatism, and telecasting tower (GOD) omnipresent.

Just one has to tune to HIS frequency that is surrender.

3. How is He? HE is benevolent to come in any form you meditate.

4. If I dont know how do I accept? Go on saying any name of HIS.

Eventually HE will tune to your frequency as HE did to Druva.

Jai Sri Krishna

baiya sathyanarayan

----------------------------

 

Dear Sirphod

 

I made a posting on your question. There was no attempt by me or for

that matter by any body (from the posts I see) who could give you

answers like you might be expected.

 

If you want to learn about God (accept or otherwise is a different

issue) you need to spend time and energy. You can select a Guru who

can help you. I do not see from your postings you have this

expectation, but the one below.

 

But if your goal is to dispute existence of God, there could be

anohter forum that must be working on such attempts.

 

By the way you can come out with your real name.

 

Venu Komanduri

 

 

PRIOR POSTING

 

Hi Sarphod Tabalchi,

1. Where is God I have never seen Him?

It seems you never tried to see God. Seeing God is not possible by

our physical eye. Those who have an insight of God only can see God.

If you try sincerely seeing God is would not be a problem. There are

many ways prescribed in our scriptures. First, Have faith in it.

Then after you never deny God.

2. Who has seen Him?

I see Him always and communicate with Him. Not only with God, I talk

to birds and animals. I can understand them and they understand me.

3. How is He?

He is always Happy. He never deny anything. He never denied my

existence. He wants everyone happy.

4. If I dont know how do I accept?

Dont reejct anything. Accept everything as it is. Never expect

anything in your way accept everything as it is. Keep God in your

mind if you dont know God. Chant Oh God Oh God Oh my God whenever

you want deny God.

5. God is a term coined by elders to put moral shackles over us so

that we may indulge in goodness.

If you know this much of God you should not deny God.

6. There has to be some basis for his existence? What are the logics

which point towards the existence of God? From where to pick the

thread?

First you ask your Parents who are patient to teach you the basic

concept of God existence. Once you have prerequesites to learn God

God comes to you automatically. Be Patient. Can you ever see the

electricity passing through a wire. A bulb is shining, Have you ever

enquired about the electricity which illumines the bulb? Think about

TV., Fridge, Air Conditioner etc., etc. whcih can not function

without electricity. Even you can not ask these questions without

that power unseen in you. My dear beleive in God is far easier than

denying God.

Lovingly, Krishna (Shobha) Das

 

------------------------

Wonderful testing of sadhaks by Tabalchi ji

We all must thank him for the excellent questions and for giving an

opportunity to better our understanding in the spiritual domain.

 

All questions have very easy answers. Excellent expression by all

sadhaks...in answering these.

 

But it is very difficult to satisfy the questioner on the answers.

since these very questions cloud everything....and become obstacles

to understanding the truth

since it is about knowing the questioner first............knowing or

seeing God comes much later.....

 

It has happened to perhaps all of us in the beginning and we may

have gone through this period.

But if we are able to contemplate on the questions with some

guidance, question begin to dissolve/disappear........and the

answers start looking meaningful........

 

So, Tabalchi ji and the begum sahiba could start with contemplating

exercise on the questions first

for example:

 

Q1 Where is God? ----contemplate on......where it should be? what

could be the place where it could be,

why it can not be hear with us?

Q2 Does God exist? ---- Contemplate on.....Who am I? ask yourself

repeatedly who am I?

Q3 Who has seen him is irrelevant? My seeing is important so

contemplate on questions - Why I don't see the God? Can I see it?

What could it look like? What should it be?

Q4 If I don't know how do I accept? Contemplate on What I don't

know? Do I know all? How can I know more?

Q5 Any other word other than God could be used for it. Contemplate

on: Is goodness gives happiness? Are moral values important? Why

we need to fear the word God to be good?

Q6 Contemplate on questions: What is basis of its existence? What

is the basis of our existence? What God must exist? Why prophets

have to come to this world? Who are these prophets?

 

See what comes as answers. It is a good learning

exercise......answers are within and we must practice to start

listening.....everyone has to do this for himself..............best

wishes......Thank you....

Sushil Jain

 

----------------------------

Dear Sarphod:

 

I have similar questions that you have.

 

Following is the status of those questions (mind you not answers):

 

1. Just beacuse I can not see GOD, that does not mean that there is

nothing like GOD which exists, since there are so many things that

exist and yet I can not see (ex: Air, Gases and so many unknowns to

mankind yet)

 

2. Same way as I have the question on the existence of GOD, I also

have the question on my question itself, i.e. I can not prove that

there is no GOD either.

 

3. Say suppose some one suddenly shows me the GOD, what are my tests

and verifications to accept him/her/it as GOD. Do I have all those

tools, a big NO (I am not sure about you)

 

4. Even if I have all those tools to test the existence of GOD and

all the tests are proved positive, then is it going to help me. That

means, do I have the right objective to find out this very unusual

thing called GOD? What is that single biggest thing that is

bothering me about finding out this GOD? Does it have the

seriousness to find out the GOD? If it does all the above questions

should be answerd positively. Or else, I am not sincere in my quest.

 

5. I might not have all these tools right now, yet I have the quest

to know about the existence of GOD, then I do not jump in to quick

conclusions like " There is no GOD, this forum is not DIVINE, etc., "

because that conclusion neither helps me nor taps in to the right

sources of knowledge. I will be just fooling myself saying " I asked

a question which this forum is not able to answer "

 

Just for the record, I remember in the whole known history of

mankind, only one person (Sri Ramakrishna Paramahansa) has admitted

to have seen GOD and was ready to show GOD to the one who was

earnestly with deepest intellectual anxiety and sincerity (Swami

Vivekananda).

 

The one who has shown and the one who was shown the GOD did not have

questions. The SOURCE and the SINK are in the perfect state of mind,

one to give and the other to receive. Am I in the equanimity levels

of Swami Vivekananda? I don't think I am and let me know if you are.

 

If you think you are, just stay there with sincere hope, A

RAMAKRISHNA will happen to you and your intellectual quest might be

fulfilled.

 

If not I need to get there before I start looking for GOD. Till such

time, GOD is tentative truth for me.

 

With a hope it might help you,

Sincerely,

Krishna (devangam krishnamurthy)

 

Hare Krishna

 

Sarphod, you have praised me by saying " I am very good " . FYI! I was

not entertaining you but I was questioning YOUR very existence. You

don't have any doubt in your existence still you cannot prove it.

Why so?? Have you thought over it?? If you can prove it (with your

logic/rationale) then why don't you do it?

 

Mikeji called you brilliant (I wonder why) but he has also called

you inflexible. But I think you have not noted that. He, Vyasji,

Pratapji and others have also given many points. You should think

over it, compare it with your logic and then prove it wrong. But for

this one need guts, because you will have to keep aside your

prejudices to think over others' points. Even if you are not able to

prove us wrong it does not mean that we can make you accept God, we

can only give logics/rationale.

 

No one can force anyone to accept God, especially those who do not

respect their father. If you cannot respect your father than how can

you accept and respect the biggest father (Param-Pita

Parmeshwar).Your father has deserted you and your wife also seems to

be upset with your adamant attitude, but you still don't have any

shame in admitting it. Rather than introspecting over your attitude

you are defending it.

 

Pratapji has not passed any judgment; it is you who is passing

judgments. Mike is best, Varun is very good, Vyas NB is making me

think. If these are not judgements then what is it? Pratapji has

correctly pointed out that you are not reading posts with an open

mind.

 

You have posted these questions only because your wife has directed

you to this group. This is the biggest problem because you are not

interested in knowing or learning anything, you are only asking

these questions just for the sake of it, just for a mere formality.

 

Mrs. Sarphod, please don't insist your husband to post questions. He

is only wasting our time and also don't reveal him anything about

Gita, because if you do so you will unnecessarily incur sin (Gita

18.67)

 

You cannot see God or feel His presence but you definitely feel your

existence as " I AM " , right? Then why can't you prove it with your

logic. I have asked 3 questions w.r.t. your existence but did not

get any reply.

 

Hare Krishna

Varun P. Paprunia

---------------------

 

Jai Hanuman

 

Mr Sarphod ! So you do not think or talk or desire regarding "

flower of sky " - because it does not exist. You yourself said that.

You can think/desire/talk about only that thing which exists.

 

Now this is the biggest proof. You thought about God. You talked

about God. You desired to know about God. You raised questions in

this forum about God. How can you do that- if God does not exist?

 

If you can do that then why did you not talk about " flower of sky " ?

As a law you can desire about only that thing which exists.

 

Answer now! To the point only. ONLY to the point.

 

You said yourself that you would believe in your parents even if

they were dead immediately after your birth, because there is a

basis. The presence of yourself itself is an indicator of their

existence. True. Now go backwards. Presence of your parents means

your grand parents were there. Go backwards and keep going. In the

end you will find one male and one female. Who were their parents?

 

God is " Param Pita " - our eternal father.

 

Clear?

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

 

 

 

----------------------

Hari Om

 

You wanted as to what is sample of God. Answer as given by Varunji

is correct. You , yourself, are " sample " of God ! Because like God,

you are also permanent and faultless. Everybody " experiences " that -

I EXIST. ( You talked about experiencing- I am talking about

experience only) . Do you have any doubt Mr Sarphod that you are not

existing ? You never have any doubt on this. You never conduct any

test to determine whether you exist or not. You never

experience/feel that - I DID NOT EXIST. About past you may say

that " I don't know " , but you can't say " I didn't exist " ! How can

you say so?

 

Why can't you say? Because you have never perceived your " self " to

be non existing. Non existence of your " self " has never come into

your experience. Even in respect of the daily occuring of deep

sleep, your experience never suggests that at that time you were non

existent. But at the same time you experience directly the

absence of ego, intellect, mind and body etc., in the deep sleep.

 

So you exist.

So He exists.

 

Now you are constantly experiencing changes/temporariness in your

body. Who can experience that? Only that element (Self) which is

permanent and changeless and who is looking separately can

experience so..

 

So you are permanent. You are witness. You are changeless. You are

not body. You exist both with or without body. You exist.

 

Similarly God is also permanent. God is also witness. God is also

changeless. God exists both with or without body. God exists.

 

So you exist. At present you are existing Mr Sarphod Now in your

body. In which part of the body you are existing Mr Sarphod? In

which part of the body you are not existing Mr Sarphod? In fact you

are existing everywhere in the body.

 

God exists everywhere in the universe as you exist everywhere in

the body.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

------------------------------

By summery of GITA: " Tat Twam Asi " or 'That You Are'

This logic is explained by Many in different way, as Jesus : " Keep

your self as pure as a Temple, so that GOD can reside in you "

As the world today is more scientific, we require proof by our

Senses.

No machine can prove Logic.

By psychologist EEG machine shows that Yog has a point when we gain

energy from vast outer energy when we Join our inner energy during a

meditative state.

Todays scientific terms were not expressed before. So we can say

positive Energy in us and arround is GOD.

This GOD creates and increases, but the negative energy will grow

only to destroy and eliminate named 'devil' !

The different State of Mind or Self is depicted in the Epics of

Ramayana and Mahabharata by the characters playing in the theatre of

this World.

The Conditions of Heaven and Hell are also due to this state of self.

 

'Tat Twam Asi' in definition of GOD as 'Bramah-Vishnu-Maheshwar' is

also what we see in us.

Psychological mind as Male-Female has in us as a Child, Learning and

Creating with help of 'Sarswati-Bramah'. Then as we are in our

Youth, we Earn and Run our life with the help of 'Laxmi-Vishnu'. At

the end of life our Old age, Eliminate and Destroy many beliefs with

the help of 'Shakti-Shiv'. Thus we prepare our self for the next

birth. The Energy, called 'spirit' by many, is indistructible and

change form. We can ralise it and can even see as Vivekananda(non

believer of statue) was shown by Guru Ramakrishna(ardent idol

worshiper). The idol is the Mirror to see our self !

--

Regards

Swapan PURKAYASTHA

 

 

 

--------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

 

Dear Sarphod:

 

I adore your persistence to what you think is right - that is a good

quality to seek truth. At the same time, I am a bit disappointed in

its lopsidedness! It is not clear what you want, frankly.

 

I have two questions for you: Are you afraid of " God " ? Do you urge

for " God " ?

 

If " YES " to any of these questions, you have a problem. You can't

stick to your current logical conviction. It is obvious that your

current logical conviction irrespective of its self-proclaimed

excellence is JUST NOT DOING ITS JOB :(. Your logical provess can

claim accolades ONLY IF it removes your fears and quench your

desires.

If not removal, at least a nominal reduction in their intensity is

warranted ... if your intellect is working straight.

 

If " NO " to any of these questions, I see a bigger problem. Why are

you confusing yourself with these questions. That " NO " becomes

meaningless just because you are incapable of letting the very

questions go! The very reason you are raising these questions prove

that you are infested either by fear or by desire or by both

regarding " God " . THAT IS EXCELLENT!

 

Then, it is " YOUR " primary responsibility to address the same. As I

mentioned earlier, your current intellect is incapable of helping you

out. Then, you have to make a shift in your thinking to inspect the

ignorance harbored within. Pardon me for calling it ignorance. But,

the fact is ... it is. Inherent fears and desires can never let an

individual happy. They create the turbulence within in terms of

themselves. The existence of miseries is proof enough that we are not

applying our intellect in the right direction. After all, it is

common sense that we do everything ONLY FOR ONE REASON - to be

happy. I am sure you agree with it.

 

The question is are you happy with these questions as such or are you

really interested in a possible solution. If you are happy with these

questions, be happy. You can never get the solution though! If you

really need a solution, QUESTION the very questions. That is the only

way out left for you to be happy. Do you have any other choice? If

you have, please pursue. Being happy is the bottom line of all

actions ... being happy ... being happy but nothing else.

 

Nobody can instruct you what God Is! You have to figure it out

yourself.

 

I don't know who misled you that this or anything specific " is a

devine forum " as if anything else is not! If you seek divinity,

everything is devine. If not, some may claim " divinity " as if the

rest is not. Please do not get trapped into such notions ... if you

really want to seek clarity regarding your question. Question your

questions ... TRUTHFULLY. You will see the end of the tunnel.

 

Again, PLEASE DO NOT EXPECT OR INSIST FOR EXPLICIT INSTRUCTIONS

REGARDING GOD. YOU WILL NOT GET ANY ANSWER ... UNLESSS ... YOU SEE IT

WITHIN YOURSELF! The only suggestion I can make is ... look for IT

within. Because, looking out all these years has seemingly remained

futile! There is no point in digging into others' psyche when mine is

not receptive enough. If I insist to continue, I can guarantee myself

of more confusion to come!! Because ... GOD cannot be held within any

" psyche " as such.

 

Anyway, just few suggestions to think about ... think about it if you

want ... ONLY IF YOU WANT.

 

All The Best.

 

Respects.

 

Naga Narayana

 

 

 

 

PRIOR POSTING

Dear " Sadhaks " (?)

 

Why my simple questions are not getting answered. Shashikalajee

asked me some questions, instead of replying to me. I , upon the

advice of my Begum Saahiba humbly replied to her. Now instead of

responding to me, she has given a conversation between a son and his

mother. My Begum is insisting to me that I should again and again

read that. OK I will do that. But let me answer her another

question. I have not desired to smell " flower of sky " , because it

does not exist. Sometimes I feel that both my Begum Sahibaa and you

Sadhaks have lost mind. What a funny question Shashikalajee has

asked. How can I desire or talk or know about a thing which doesn " t

exist? This is my basic fundamental and solid argument. Vyas N B is

giving indicators which require me to think. I am thinking. But the

best among you is Mike Keenor. He told me to remain solid. He

adviced me to remain tenacious, merciless and hang on. I am hanging

on. But then why Vineet Sarvottam told me lies? Varun Paprunia gave

him a fitting reply. Varun - you are very good. This Pratap Bhatt

is rebuking me. Why? What is my fault. On one hand you are simply

giving me round round answers. On other hand you are passing

judgement. Is this a conduct of a sadhak. Please reply to me. Or

say - none of you have capacity to answer my simple questions. My

Begum Sahibaa has already started crying. Have mercy on her at

least. But Mike praised me. He called me " brilliant " .

 

Waiting for answers.

 

Sarphod Tabalchi

---------------------------

We all struggle with these questions. The answers I found logical is

this: There is something beyond mind and matter. Some will call that

something Omnipotent, Omniscient, Omnipresent. Others will call it

random nothing. Another question one hears is why do I want to know

That Something. To Know, or to Control it? Here in lies the paradox

and answer: If it is to know only: He is right there with you,

within you: The Life, Love Peace. If it is to control so that we

control our surrounding: That is the struggle of Ego. Arjuna had to

see the Universal form to get over the final hurdle.

Jay Shree Krishna.

 

Hemendra Parikh

-------------------------------

Dear devotees of Lord Krishna,

The discussion is interesting. I learned the gita much better after

seeing the life experience of a realized lady, who had darshan of

Lord Krishna ( first darshan of Lords feet after chanting a sloka

from 10 th chapter of Gita for 30,000 times continuously for 30

days ). Her conversations with the Lord have been recorded in

Tamil, and can be shared with the group if interested.

With kind regards,

Sincerely,

P.Vivekanandan

-------------------------------

 

Try Brahmacharya ( the vow of celibacy in thought, word and deed, by

which one attains Self-realisation or reaches Brahman) and you will

see for yourself the value.

 

The Srutis declare: " Naayam Atma balaheenena labhyah - This Atman is

not attainable by a weak man. " In the Gita you will

find: " Yadichhanto brahmacharyam charanti - That desiring which

Brahmacharya is performed " (Chap. VIII-11). " Trividham narakasyedam

dvaram nasanamatmanah; kamah krodhastatha lobhastasmad etat trayam

tyajet - O Arjuna! Triple is the gate of the hell, destructive of

the Self; lust, wrath and greed: therefore let man renounce these

three " (Chap. XVI-21). " Jahi satrum mahabaho kamarupam durasadam -

Kill this powerful enemy, passion, by the observance of

Brahmacharya " (Chap. III-43).

 

If we are determined to attain the goal of life by leading a pure

life, we must keep this mind busily engaged in Divine thoughts,

concentration, meditation, study and service of humanity.

 

It is difficult to eradicate lust. But you need not despair even a

bit. Have faith in God, in His Name and in His grace. Lust cannot be

completely rooted out of the mind except by the grace of the Lord.

You are bound to succeed if you have faith in Him. The Divine Grace

is needed. God helps those who help themselves.

 

Until man continues to cling to worldliness, Paramatma cannot be

grasped by him.

 

You can read more about this in the " Easy Steps to Yoga " by Sri

Swami Sivananda.

chirag almoula

 

--------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

 

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

Tabalchiji, with all the respect for you and questions, I may point

out that no one can make anyone see anything let alone God if that

person doesn't want to see. It seems like you may be insistent upon

seeing God in the way you want to see.

Please forgive me if I am wrong, but as a friend I am saying. It

seems like you may not have read the postings with open mind, with

the desire to know the truth. Open mind doesn't mean accepting, it

means you must give a fair reading/hearing and then asking pertinent

questions or raise doubts based on what is read. Here your responses

indicate you have decided that God cannot exist for you if you

cannot see or have some logic to prove God's existence. One has to

see that " seeing God " means deep understanding of intuitive nature

in this context where mind being limited cannot comprehend. It has

to be prepared to be open. Our conditioned mind is incapable of

grasping truth.

Some of us provided solid logic, but it still fell short to make you

see the pointers.

I said one cannot say " I don't see God " without knowing what God he

is looking that he cannot find. One has to know what one wants to

see, right? One can say " I don't know God, tell me what/where I

should look, and how to recognize " . It is different than show me

God, right?

Once again, God is the Conscious/Intelligent Existence as reflected

in our experience of " I am " right now as you read these words. In

first posting, dialogue was used to illustrate it as a solid proof

one cannot deny.

There are ways to experience God for which senses-mind-intellect is

not capable like they are for knowing objects. Nevertheless, there

is proof of God more reliable than that.

But this point didn't make any impression.

I request you with humility to re-read responses again and see what

happens!

Namaskar..............Pratap Bhatt

-------------------------------

Hare Krishna

 

Okay Mr. Sarphod,

 

Let's put God's existence out of equation for a moment and only

discuss about sample/logics/rationales w.r.t. YOUR existence.

 

I AM

 

Well, you don't have any doubt in your existence, right? Your body

has changed and it is rapidly changing every second. But Mr.

Sarphod, is you also changing with the body? You are certainly not

changing with it because if you were changing then who would have

known the change in body? You are that changeless element who knows

the change in body. Isn't it? Childhood, youth, old age are the

changing phases of the body but you are that changeless element who

is witness to all these changes. It is a law that only a changeless

element can perceive the ever-changing element. My question - What

is the basis of your never-changing existence? If you consider

body's existence as your existence then you are defying all logic,

because body is changing every second!!!

 

I and MINE

 

It is a law that whatever is mine, it is never I. For example you

consider your house, car, wife, children etc. as mine but you never

consider them as I. But in the case of body you say 'my hands, my

legs, my stomach, my ears, my eyes, my throat etc.' and

simultaneously you also consider it as 'I' e.g. I am not feeling

well. You establish two transversal relationships with the body,

that of 'I' and 'MINE'. Whichever thing is mine it is always apart

(separate) from you, and that thing which is separate from you, how

can it be I? This body is also apart from you but still you call it

as I. Is this logical?

 

Mr. Sarphod, now I wish to see you. Can you show me yourself???

Ohh... please don't show me that body which you claim it as mine. I

want to see that Mr. Sarphod who claims the body as mine. In other

words, I want to see that element which you refer to as I?

 

Before that I am eager to know whether you have ever seen yourself.

According to you anything that exists is perceptible. So Mr.

Sarphod, with which instrument have you seen yourself?

 

If you have not seen yourself then, well ..... do you exist ?????

 

And at last one more question- Whose name is Sarphod - body or

yourself?

 

Mr. Sarphod, with your logics/samples/rationales etc., first prove

 

1. Your existence.

2. The basis of your existence.

3. The instrument with which you have seen/felt your existence.

 

Then we will also discuss about God's existence....

 

As Sarphodji is contemplating over his existence, in the mean time,

those sadhaks whose faith in God has dwindled with his questions,

they are requested to read this Sadhaka posting

sadhaka/message/2108

 

Hare Krishna

Varun P. Paprunia

-------------------------------

 

Jai Hanuman

 

(Shrimad Bhagvad Geeta- Marathi Edition- By Saint Gyaaneshwarji-

Chapter 13- Kalyaan- By Narainduttji Gaur )

 

Jeeva ( J) (We all- as referred in BG 15:7) :

 

Mom pls tell me , when I was born?

 

Maya , Mother Nature, Prakrati, Illusion (As referred in BG 7: 13/14)

( M ) :

 

( Irritated) What non sense! Is it some thing to be told? (By a Mom

to Son?)

 

J: If mother doesn't tell, who will?

 

M: How to tell you? I came only after you !

 

J: Typical Mom ! Means- I came first and then you? Surprising? Isn't

it?

 

M: You won't understand. Be silent and sleep!

 

J: Come On ! First me ..! And then You ...!! (How can it be?) Pls

tell me the story ! Please !!

 

M: I told you. You won't understand! Many big people even could not.

 

J: Ok ! Then my Father can let me understand. Take me to Him, please.

 

M: ( Curtly) Stop this song of Father, Father. Your Father is Father

only for the name sake.In fact, I have to do every thing.

 

J: Does He not do anything?

 

M: What can He do? He is old, ancient, poor fellow (eternal) ! Then

totally actionless! Absolutely non-doer! Neither hands, nor legs,

nor eyes, nor ears! Nothing in fact! Look Kid ! Whatever colour ,

form etc of the world which you are seeing is my miracle, my form,

my competence, my work ! Ok? Your Father has neither any form, nor

any beauty. What beauty He can impart to the world?

 

J: But all say that He is the real Creator. See Mom! Whatever is my

Father, He is my Father! Ok? His insult...??

 

M: Insult! What insult? Whose insult? One who does not have any

caste or creed, any family or varna, any city or village- what can

be His respect or disrespect?

 

J: How bad He will feel, if He listens to what you are saying?

 

M: Even if He gets annoyed, what can He do? One who neither moves,

nor walks, nor travels, nor laughs, nor cries, nor speaks, neither

any juice, nor any taste, nor any play !!! This entire

exhibition/show I run, Dear Son !!

 

J But out there on Gate (of the circus) His name is written, O Mom !!

 

M: Ultimately you will take side of your Father only. Afterall you

are His son!

 

J: O Mom of the Universe! Why did not you put name of yours on the

front gate of this Great Circus? ( The world)

 

M: How to put my name. This is the real trgedy. You won't

understand, Son. I, the creator and controller of uncountable

universes can not do any thing by my name!! (Ramcharitmanas- 5/21/4)

 

J: Don't be sad and sorry Mom! What is the matter?

 

M: It is very secret, Son! If by seeing my banner outside the gate,

if somebody wants to meet with me, he will be disappointed. Son!

Please understand my pain. One is lazy ( does nothing), has no

organs, is actionless- those who want to search such (an element)

person , they search Him merely by His name! (Ramcharitmanas-

1/26/2). But to me, even when I am controlling entire sentient and

insentient world, if some body wants to search, CANNOT find! Cannot

search.

 

J: Why not Mom?

 

M: (With tears in her eyes) Because, in reality, I don't exist. I am

false. I am asat. I am non existent. My " not being " is my " being " .

Whatever is not- I am that. I am no-thing.

 

J: And whatever is there, that is who? Who is that?

 

M: He is your Father, Son!

 

J: (In mind, talking with himself only, Son thinks/says - Hats off

to you Mom! When you don't exist, then this is the scene of the

world that even Lord Shiva , Brahma are afraid of you -

Ramcharitmanas 7/71/8- had you existed " actually " Mom then.....)

 

O my No-thing Mom! When you don't even exist , then on whose power

you run this circus called the world?

 

M: What to tell you, Son? I can tell you only this much that, of

Whose a mere flicker of eyebrow, I do rule the uncountable

universes, I can't dare/ don't have courage to face Him. I do run

this circus only on His strength.

 

J : O My Unconquerable Mom! My hundreds of Pranaams to you. Bless

me , O Mom! So that I may get my Father!!

 

While bowing and doing Pranaams to his mother, Jeeva became

tranquilised and then in the background divine music played-

 

" MAAMEVA YA PRAPADYANTE, MAYAMETAM TARANTI YE "

 

(BG 7:14)

 

He was He only!

 

Namaste Jee.

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

-------------------------------

-Shri Hari-

 

My dear Sarphodji,

 

A few points to consider, I have said I have been touched by the

Divine,(just one way of putting it), such Grace is life changing, I

could be lying or be mad,(I tell the truth), but I know just by

reading the things fellow Sadhaks have written that I AM NOT ALONE.

Some people come to Bhagwan with ease and joy others take the path of

fire so to speak, (the hard miles).

 

In the west there is an expression,'The Dark Night of The Soul', and

yes! If it is known in the west it is most absolutely known in the

Indian Traditions.(I think Arjuna's predicament reflects that),I will

stay using the terminology to which I am most familiar.

You say you are deserted, you are not deserted, the Brethren have not

deserted you, and in the Darkest Moment of the Soul, there is a light

shining, that light comes from 'That', which will wash away you

tears, 'That' which will break your heart so that you can be

mended. Your arguments are not solid dear Brother, not to those that

have felt the embrace of The Beloved. Your inflexibility, combined

with your determined search, may well introduce you to 'The Dark

Night...', the very ONE you rebuked the most, will be the one that

rescues you. I speak from experience not from books.

 

With Respect and Divine Love,

 

Mike Keenor

 

 

 

 

 

PRIOR POSTING

Hari Om

 

If sadhaks can concentrate on giving short pointers / rationale

which establishes the existence of Supreme Power it will help all

in being definitive, have reference material and it will also

strengthen faith. Ego, Intellect and Mind don't let you agree that

easily. And who knows who may need in the coming turbulent era of

Kaliyug, that is lacking in faith and belief. Let us get united.

 

From discourses of Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj (Taat Shree), whom I

have solely relied on for a number of years -

 

Every human being wants the following:

 

1) To " live for ever " . This is desire for SAT (existence). Fear of

death is the indicator of that desire.

2) To know every thing. No one wants to be unknowlegeable. This is

desire for CHIT (Knowledge).

3) To be happy. No one wants to be unhappy. This is desire for

ANANDA.

 

Any doubt Mr Sarphod? Now if there is a desire then the element to

fulfill that desire must also be there. There must be some one /

some element which enables you to " live for ever " , to be all knowing

and to be ever blissful. Had such an element not existed, we would

not have had the desire for the same.

 

Paramatma is SAT-CHIT-ANANDA.(Sachchidananda)

 

Raam! Raam!! Raam!!!

 

To be continued.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

------------------------------

 

Dear Tabalchi ji,

 

According to J. Krishnamurti " modern so called educated " people want

a little bit of intellectual amusement and therefore they indulge in

meaningless discussions about God and such matters. God cannot be

discussed in this manner, because That Absolute Truth (give

It/Her/Him any name) is beyond description.

Your all the six questions are like the enquiries of a " full

stomach " tourist without an iota of appetite going through the menu,

or reading it aloud with his co-friends. If you are really thirsty

you will not indulge in such childish questions about water, but

will try your best to drink it.

 

I suggest you read Uncommon Wisdom and other books by Dr Capra (a

physic scientist) who has quoted from our Sanskrit literature about

God, or read A Brief History of Time by Hawking Stephens (well known

expert on dark hole and universe) to know the concept of time and

space. At least do go through some writings by Nobel laureate Dr

Edington (a scientist). Only then, you can be a little serious about

exploring the great Absolute Truth. Become " jyan-vijyan-triptah " and

only then we can walk together on this spiritual quest.

 

Regards,

Suresh C. Sharma

------------------------

 

Sir,

You are asking the oldest question ever being asked. See around

you, a sperm has made you upto approximately 6 feet. Who designed

this project and process. Your father and mother only are tools.

Inquire within and get the answer.

 

surender syal

--------------------------------

 

Mitro,

Why has this God become famous as " HE " why not " she " or " IT "

or " Nothing " ? Today's generation will not believe in gibberish

bakwaas . The paradox is every religion, every saint says that God

is ONE. But even within Hindus philosophy we see thousands of gods

(many names and forms). If God is One then why all the differences

and the fights? How come? Ramchander Homma

 

------------------------------

I agree with Luca Brasi that I should be fairly replied. I have

asked a lot of questions. I want proof/logic and I want to know How

is that Supreme. I want sample. I want rationale. My Begum Saahibaa

also told me that I am head breaker like your Shashikaljee told me.

But I never agreed with her so far. I never admitted this version.

I am not head or skull breaker. My name suggests that I am mind

fixer. Any way how the name matters? I am what I am. I accept my

parents because even if I dont remember my birth, they remember

that. They know that I am their child. I can see them. I can feel

them. I can experience them. I can recognise them. That is why they

are my parents. Where is God? How can I accept God on the grounds

that since I did not know my parents at the time of birth and I

accepted hence I should accept God also. Children are children. They

dont understand. But I am adult. I understand. My Begum Sahibaa

could not satisfy me and hence she asked me to get in touch with you

She said you will satisfy me.I checked with her that I am not

satisfied even after, because I have MOST SOLID arguments, then

what? Even my father deserted me because he could not satisfy me.

She said such situation will not arise. If I cant see , I cant

accept. Prove to me how one can accept without seeing or feeling or

experiencing or logic or rationale or basis. At least I should feel

or experience. Even if my parents were dead at the time of birth,

still I would accept that because how can I come without them on

this earth. What is your answer? Pratap or Vineet or Mike or

Shashikala. My Begum Sahibaa said few things regarding observations

of Vineet also. Please reply- Sadhaks of this self

proclaimed " Divine " site. Dont go by my name. Even my Begum

Saahibaa complains regarding my name. What can I do regarding my

name Jee?

 

Sarphod Tabalchi

 

 

PRIOR POSTING

Hare Krishna

 

Sarphodji,

 

Not only can Parmatma be an individual he can also be a fish

(Matsya-avatar), a tortoise (Kachchap-avatar), a pig (varaha-avatar),

a half lion-half man (Narsimha-avatar) and what not!!!

According to Gita, not only can a devotee see God but also know Him

and also enter into Him.

 

Arjuna said

O universal form, O thousand-armed Lord, I wish to see You in Your

four-armed form, with diadem on your head with club, wheel, conch and

lotus flower in Your hands. I long to see You in that form. (11.46)

 

Sanjaya said

The Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krishna, having spoken thus to

Arjuna, displayed His real four-armed form and at last showed His

two-armed form, thus encouraging the fearful Arjuna. (11.50)

 

Lord Krishna said:

My dear Arjuna, this form of Mine you are now seeing is very

difficult

to behold. Even the demigods are ever seeking the opportunity to see

this form, which is so dear.

Neither by the study of Vedas, nor by penance, nor by charity, nor

even by rituals can I be seen in this form (with four-arms), as You

have seen Me.

O valiant Arjuna, through single-divided devotion, however, I can be

seen in this form (with four-arms), known in essence and even entered

into.

My dear Arjuna, he who performs all his duties for Me, depends on Me,

is devoted to Me, has no attachment, and is free from malice towards

all beings, reaches Me. (11.52-55)

 

Please give special attention to the last 2 verses. This will answer

your question of knowing and seeing God.

 

Yes, I have also read the same in Swamiji's book which your wife has

stated. I consider it to be true because I believe in Swamiji's

words.

 

Hare Krishna

Varun P. Paprunia

------------------------------

 

Hari Om

 

No! Sarphodji. Those who want to learn should read carefully and

should learn also to be patient. All sadhaks upto now have given

excellent observations. I have also given you logics/pointers and

will

continue to give you till you get satisfied. I agree with Luca that

there must be logics/rationale existing. It is another matter, as Mr

Vineet stated, that they are pointless once you proceed ahead. But

still questions are questions and your insistence , though, odd but

still should be respected. Your " Begum Sahibaa " appears to have

directed herself to peace. I wish you understood the hidden affection

in the in the message of Mike Keenor to you. Here are more

logics/pointers to you:

 

3. In life, we always find a higher person than ourselves. In every

field a higher person than one is existing. See around you, you will

find this statement to be true. Even the President of USA can not say

" I am the Highest " . Always a better /higher person than you is

existing. Now where does this " highness " end. If there is sense of

highness , then there must be an element which is " highest " . God is

that element. God is the HIGHEST.

 

4. You always need some " shelter " to survive. In the childhood you

need shelter of parents, teacher, etc. Then of education, ability,

wife, money, home, employers, what not. In old age, you need wife,

children, stick, doctor, medicines, health etc Sujects change but not

the need for shelter.. If there is consistent need for shelter , then

there must be an element existing of whose shelter is the ultimate

shelter. Is not it Mr Sarphod. ( You should argue on such in

principle

points. Check up with you Begum Sahibaa.) ? If you are thirsty ,

there

must be water existing on the planet. Now when you need always some

shelter or other, then there must be an element which can be

described

as " Highest Shelter available " ! God is " PARAM ASHRAYA DATA " Giver

of that shelter. If you take shelter of God, no other shelter will be

necessary,

 

5. We always want to be perfect. There is no doubt on that. But there

is also no doubt regarding the fact that we err. In fact " to err is

human " -this saying is prevalent on this planet from time immemorial.

Now if there is a desire to become perfect then there must exist an

element which is most perfect. Did you ever hear that there was a

difference of a fraction of a second even in timings of Sun rise and

Sun set? Is not everything moving to the perfection? Who can be more

perfect except God. God is the MOST PERFECT.

 

To be continued till you say " I am satisfied "

 

As regards your observation that " Nature " also creates/controls-

answer is that whether you believe that nature has " knowledge " ? If

yes, then that nature is our God. In our religion ( I don't know your

religion) SHAKTI is God also. But if according to you , the INERT

NATURE has no knowledge, then you have to accept God. Can inert

nature

take care of so many souls, operate Law of Karma, provide food to so

many creatures? If Yes- I don't mind calling that Nature to be God.

After all it is a matter only of " terminology " . If no then you must

accept that IF THERE IS DESIRE / NEED IN YOU TO BE PERFECT OR TO TAKE

SHELTER OR TO SEEK HIGHNESS then there exists an element to fulfil

that desire. That element is called " GOD/ PARAMATMA " . Logical ?

Does

it appeal to your logic Mr Sarphod? Check up with your Begum Sahibaa

and come back. Your arguments shall exhaust, not our arguments- be

sure on this. After all you are on GT Site !

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

-------------------------------

 

Dear Sarphod:

 

Wonderful! I like your guts to put this question across!! I was

startled to start with and even alarmed as I contemplated " thanks

for triggering the turbulence from which proceeds the peace as

always. "

 

Son goes to father and asks, " Father, what is God? " Father

answered, " Whatever drives your life, whatever sustains your life

and whatever absorbs your life is verily God my child. Think about

It! " The father was wise enough not to instruct what God is. The son

promptly contemplates in what his father said and came back, " Father,

fear drives all the lives. Fear sustains all the lives. Fear absorbs

all the life. Therefore, fear should be the god. " Father

remarks, " Good job! Keep thinking. " The son not knowing whether his

revelation was conclusive or not continues to contemplate. Son comes

back to father and declares, " Father, desire drives all the lives,

desire sustains all the lives and desire absorbs all the lives.

Therefore, the desire should be the god. " Father remarks again, Good

job! Keep thinking. " The son does not feel the conclusive

appreciation regarding the god - is it fear or desire? He continues

to contemplate and realizes that, the happiness drives all the

lives. Happiness sustains all the lives. And, happiness absorbs all

the lives. Therefore happiness should be the god.

 

Now he does not go back to his father as he has already felt the

wisdom behind his father's remarks. God is not something that can be

taught to, or preached to or transferred to anybody. It is the

notion within ... it is the imagination within ... it is the

deliberation within ... it is the understanding within ... it is the

appreciation within ... IT IS THE PRESENCE WITHIN in its core. The

son, accepting the challenge from his father to use the body, senses

and mind blessed to him, continues to contemplate.

 

He has seen the driving force, sustenance strength and absorption

power in the fear, in the desire as well as in the happiness. He

sees that the three divinities of creation, sustenance,and

absorption transcend the boundaries of his existential fears,

desires and happiness altogether integrating the whole universe of

knowns as well as unknowns - manifested as well as unmanifested -

mitigating the differences that were once prominent amongst the

three phases of life - fear, desire and happiness.

 

Then starts another dilemma - who is the god amongst these three

divinites that seem to determine what life is? Driving Force or

Sustenance Strength or Absorption Power? Again, he approaches his

father, the wisdom established within to contemplate on the dilemma.

 

The driving force comes first to claim the unclaimed post of The

God. On ruthless examination, the driving force starts wondering

aloud that it itself should have been driven by something else. The

new driving force wonders the same and so on. The driving force digs

up an infinite legacy of its own kind beneath lost in the oblivion

of the past. It returns back in frustration not withstanding what

the driving force could really be.

 

The absorption power jumps in next to claim the still unclaimed post

of The God. Again, the wisdom starts the same gruelling scrutiny.

The power under sharp vigilence starts whithering away to wonder if

it absorbs everything there should be something to absorb itself.

The new absorbing power wonders the same way and so on. The

absorption power piles up an infinite heirarchy of its own kind

above lost in the oblivion of the future. It returns back in

frustration not withstanding what the absorption power could ever

be.

 

The empty throne is still awaiting to be filled. The sustenance

strength walks to claim the post in confidence. The valiant wisdom

does its job with no resistance subjecting the life sustenance

power in suspension of its examination. The sustencance strength

which provides strength to all the life around starts wondering what

is the source of its own strength and sustenance. The new source of

the strength resounds the same wonder what could be the source of

strength. The sustenance strength keeps jumping from on fold to

another all around the universe that is within its control to seek

itself folding itself in infinitude lost in the vast presence. It

returns back in frustration not withstanding what the sustenance

strength could ever be.

 

Seeing the crest-fallen champions of life not realizing their own

true nature around, the throne of The God starts fading into

silence. The wisdom starts wondering in itself. Is it not the

driving force as well as the sustenance strength as well as the

absorption power all the time all around? Suddenly, the demarkation

between the three divinities that was once so thick and opaque

starts giving away to reveal the force, strength and power of

creation, sustenance and absorption in itself and hence in every

thing that is perceieved ever.

 

The realized wisdom gets back and declares. Never ever ignore your

fears. Never ever ignore your desires. Never ever ignore your

happiness. Ever be with your fears, desires and happiness as you

are. Then you see the unison amongst your fears, desires and joys

and hence in all your emotions, relations and existence within as

well as around. Then you see all the boundaries separating your

notions dissolve in the very wisdom where you dwell upon. Being what

you are in spite of your apparent variances of life naturally

transcends all the barriers built by your cognition across

everything to reveal THE ONE everywhere and everywhence. Then the

very post of God does not appear to be real anymore which seemed the

most troublesome question to start with.

 

God remains evasive till you drift away from what you are in vain

searching whatever IT could be! Therefore, my dear friend, better

pause in your frenzy search and look around and look within … be

what you are. Then God is everything … not just a notion ... not

just a faith ... not just a doubt ... but, everything ... EVERYTHING

WITH NO EXCEPTION. If you remain what you are, IT is all-inclusive.

If you attempt to search for it, IT becomes all-exclusive. In other

words, IT is EVERYTHING in your presence; and IT is NOTHING in your

perception.

 

Respects.

 

Naga Narayana

--------------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

Let us address one aspect of Tabalchiji's issues with responses of

sadhakas received so far!

To be able to see God, one needs to recognize God upon seeing

anything, right? If one says I don't see God, one is looking for what

one " thinks " God is in whatever one is looking at. For God to be

" that " it will be very very limiting to God, because what we think is

so limited even if it is some grand image of God. That is not

logical, right?

Now when Swamiji says Goenkaji and Poddarji had darshana of God, what

does it mean?

It means the deep understanding of what God is and subsequent

realization that " my God, there is nothing else but only God IS in

the disguise of the Cosmos " that sees through that individual.

The individual's vision has changed entirely, where he/she saw

objects of the world before, now he sees only Divinity in the same

forms. It is our experience that what we believe out there, we tend

to see only that through our being closed minded. Similarly when we

understand God, this " Understanding " opens up the very mind who sees

God everywhere, individual is merely a channel God is using.

Other aspects of issues will see later....

Namaskar............Pratap Bhatt

 

------------------------

-Shree Hari-

 

Sarphodji,

 

Great! You are still questioning brilliant!

I have read the responses from our brethren, great beauty full of

divine love. But I will stick to the hared nosed roll,(look past it

dear friend).

If someone asked me to show her an oak tree, and I gave her an acorn,

what would she say I wonder? Of course the blueprint for the whole

tree is in the acorn, one also one wonders, did the first oak tree

have an acorn or the first acorn have an oak tree?

Question 6 if resolved is the platform upon which all the other

question can be answered it seems to me.

I can only tell you how I came to be touched be The Divine, that was

by my search into paradoxes, like the universe, like the acorn.

I once mentioned a man I met in unusual circumstance. It was about

3am

in a large air traffic control room, very few controllers in the room

at that time. I was waiting to get clearance to work on a console(to

do annual technical checks). There across the room was this

controller, He had his headset on,(with a long lead), he was

performing asanas, (within the restriction), " trying to stay awake? "

I

asked, " no he boomed " , we started to talk. We had 'Much' in common,

we

developed a dialog from then on , it was he who suggested I read

Bhagavad Gita,(I humbly suggest you do also).

He once said to me with his booming humorous voice, " Mike if people

could her us they would think we're 'Lunatics'.

What we had in common at the root, was our hunger for the truth, and

the courage, 'to ride the tiger " .

We were an unlikely pair from a world view, he was a Sri Lankan, me

an

Anglo Celt, especially if one could here us talking, but we were

brothers of the spirit.

There is much I could talk of, but I must bow to the respected

moderator.

 

With Respect and Divine Love,

 

Mike Keenor

-

Mr Sarphod ! So you are a male as well as married ! Very good Jee !

 

It is a good habit to act in accordance with advice your Begum. How

did she leave you alone? Do you have books of Swamiji Ramsukhdasji

Maharaj at your home? Your “Begum†had those books according to

you.

Did you read them? Or your Begum only reads them? By the way did

you ever think about or did you ever have a desire to smell “

flower

of sky†? Why did you not think about flower of sky or desired to

smell it ? Reply. This is a question to you. Also reply if you always

believe only after “seeing†?

 

Let us know as to how you can get satisfied according to you?. What

methodology suits your mind.? How do you generally feel regarding

this world,mind, intellect, body etc etc ? How according to you such

a

big world is operating ? Do you think there are some laws governing

this world? Keep also giving your observations , counter arguments on

EACH AND EVERY response which is given to you. Otherwise how will we

know whether the cure has taken place? Understood? You can consult

your Begum also before replying to my queries. Always tell us what

your Begum told you and what is your own observation. Why don’t you

tell your Begum also to become member and start Satsanga? Will that

not be better? What is her kind name, Jee?

 

Namaste Jee.

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

 

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

Another aspect of issues raised by Tabalchiji can be answered based

on

what sadhakas already have echoed in their responses.

The most important thing is to know that God is not " something " ,

" somewhere " and " some times " . It is at the core of our being, an

intimate experience which is The Knowingness without anything known.

In otherwords, God cannot be known as another limited object,

nevertheless, is known as " knowingness " in us by virtue of just

being.

For example, if someone were to ask you, can you show me Love, Peace,

Compassion, Beauty, Goodness etc " out there " ? You cann't! They are

experiences within us that we attribute to things/situations etc

outside which may have triggered them. Some philosopher rightly said

" From the beginning, not a thing is! " Please, please, see the truth

of

this. We are connected to the world only through Being Conscious of

something or other which we conceptualize as subject

experiencer(mind-body), and objects experienced, both thought as

separate. Such division is not experiential.

Just as these experiences are not seen " out there " , but are truely

happening in our consciousness, God cannot be seen, as separate from

Consciousness.

Sun, for example, is nothing but the experience of light and heat,

conceptualized as " Sun " out there, for practical purpose. This is

also

true for all apparant objects of the world.

God or Consciousness or Atman, are also such conceptual words of the

most intimate Wordless Experience! They are good pointers though!

When people engage in services to help others who are victims of

disasters, diseases, violence, wars, terrorism etc etc who motivates

their actions? Unconditional Love and Goodness of the heart! People

who help to preserve natural environment, forests, animals, etc etc

are also inspired by the same Love and Goodness!

Can we not call Unconditional Love and Goodness of the heart God?

Are those who bring such disasters to " apparant others " also God, if

all is God?

They are also, yes, but unfortunately " they " have not understood yet

that they are!

In God's world, only God exists playing " others " , so who does what to

whom?

Try doing evil acts after understanding deep within that all of us,

nature included, together, not individually, are God! One cannot!

 

Namaskar...........Pratap Bhatt

 

 

-

PRIOR POSITING

Dear Sadhak,

Excellent explanation has been given by sadhak Pratapji....Excellent!

If the parents donot know GOD how can they teach the kids?

Swamiji says if something is lying in darkness we can take a deepak

with us to see it but to see a deepak(lamp) we donot need another

deepak. Same way the objects of this whole worlds can be

seen/experienced through the " SELF " but to know this SELF we donot

need anything from the world( mind/body/intellect etc.) Only SELF

knows it SELF.

1. Where is God I have never seen Him?

He is not HE, He is " I " . When we can see/know who am I we can

see/know who is God.

Indeed, You alone know Yourself by Your own potencies, O origin of

all, Lord of all beings, God of gods, O Supreme Person, Lord of the

universe! Ch10:15

2. Who has seen Him?

All realized people have known HIM.Some claim that they have seen

HIM too.

Swami Vivekananda asked this question to everyone he met-Have you

seen God ? All answers negative except Ramkrishna Paramhansa.He said-

" Yes I have seen God as clearly as I am seeing you right now. "

Listening to this Narendra became his disciple.

3. How is He?

With a single fragment of Myself I pervade and support this entire

universe.Ch10:42

4. If I dont know how do I accept?

Then go ahead follow the path shown to us by Swamiji or any realized

soul, and know Him first, then accept.

5. God is a term coined by elders to put moral shackles over us so

that we may indulge in goodness.

What's wrong with that ? Accept God ,be righteous and be Arjuna or

donot accept Him, be Duryodhana - choice is yours.

6. There has to be some basis for his existence? What are the logics

which point towards the existence of God? From where to pick the

thread?

Start with meditation and Gita. Follow the path shown by Him in Gita-

Karma Yoga, Gyaan Yoga or Bhakti Yoga. Establish yr self in YOGA.....

 

No one can force any one to believe. Kids learn by imitation. Lead

yr own life according to Dharma,and kids will pick it up.Before

giving them tatva Gyaan(absolute knowledge),its better to sit with

them and watch Ramayana, Krishna, Mahabharata and let them learn by

the character of our Sagun Sakaar Bhagwaan(God with Forms). If they

can learn from Rama or Krishna, they will be on right path and will

get their realization at their own speed.

with lots of Love,

a sadhika

Sadhna Karigar

 

--------------------------------

Jai Hanuman

 

Oye What a question Jee!!. As good as the name of the

questioner!! " Sarphod " in Hindi means skull breaker ! " Tablachi "

means he who plays treble. Unique Jee !! Namaste Sarphodji !!

Welcome Jee ! There is music everywhere ! Who kept such a classic

name Jee ? Father? OK, pick the thread from father only.

 

How do I accept if I don't know? Accept just as you accepted some

one to be your father without knowing anything about him. Don't say

please- " that children now a days need more than belief to accept " .

That, I am afraid, is not as classic a statement as is even your

kind name. Fact is that children practice only belief and solid

belief. They are masters of belief - and teachers of entire humanity

on this subject of belief. Poor adults need proof. What kind of

proof was solicited by you in accepting some one to be your father

or some name to be mine or for that purpose by " the children of now

a days " - say son of Sarphod Tablachi, if any ??

 

Do you " know " as to who is your father and who is your mother? What

proof or rationale you can give to support your acceptance of Mr X

as your father?

 

You asked " from where to pick the thread " . I reply to you that you

pick the thread from yourself and your Dear Father. Come On !

 

Reply now! Argue !!

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

-------------------------------

Mr.Pratapji Bhatt has explained the existance of God beautifully.It

is very much in sync with Sri Sri Paramhansa Yogananda's explanation

in his books- " Autobiography of a yogi " and " Man's eternal quest "

which i have read. Also the story quoted by mahalaksmiji perfectly

describes how to know God.He is all knowing and yet unknown.He is

the Devine Intelligence that governs all that is known to us.God is

indescribebable.He can only be felt in the depths of a pure soul.

Ami Chhowala

 

--------------------------------

I still remain unsatisfied in this " divine " forum. How and why

Paramatma can not be an individual ? Is there nothing in your

scriptures like Gita which says that a devotee can also " see " God ?

My Begum Sahiba states that she read from a book of your Swami

Ramsukhdasji that Jai Dayal Goenka and Hanuman Poddar

had " darshanas " of God. Was His statement right or your reference

of good Swami is right? Why do you say that God can not be known?

How then the desire to know can be fulfilled? Whether I need an

instruction manual or not is not the focal point, in fact, to be

fair to me, answer to my questions in simple and convincing manner

is focal point! None of the " sadhaks " are convincing so far. I

asked from where to pick the thread? The responses are unclear and

incomplete.

 

Mr Mike ! Incomplete, was your answer. If you believe you were like

me in the past, then make me like you in the present. Is that not a

divine task? Is that not the role of this forum? Logic must exist.

Pointers must be there. Knowledge cant be beyond itself. What else

we are doing at present except meeting?

 

Mr Vyas - When Your so called " Nature " made oceans, Sun Moon etc

and when Nature is supreme then where is the question of God? Why

cant Fire/ Ocean/etc are called God ? If yes, then how God is

beyond knowledge? How God can not be seen as stated by Mr Pratap

Bhatt or by Vineet Sarvottam ?

 

" Sadhaks " - My Begum Sahibaa directed me to you people to satisfy

my knowledge quest ! I expected better as I am hungry for answers.

 

Sarphod Tabalchi

--------------------------------

Such a question can only arise from those who consider gross body as

real self and not the outer sheath of immortal " real self " which

contains the apriori knowledge.

 

They see God every day but do not recognise THEE. The Universal God

is Tri-Ani-Pada- three bodies in One i.e. gross, subtle and divine.

Since the entire Brahamad is God, His gross body consists of " Sun

and Moon His eyes, firmament his middle body and earth as His Feet "

and His Head is in Heaven. Thus entire Brahmand is God. Most of the

people who find gross body as real, want to imagine and visulaise

God as a human being forgetting that human beings who live on this

earth are " Thy " tiny living cells. We have several billions living

cells in our gross body, can any living cell of our body tell who we

are?

 

But those who find human soul as " real self " have no difficulty in

knowing God. His divine body is the Omniscient Supreme Soul

(Parmatma) and His subtle body " Mahadeva " is omnipotent Supreme

Spirit prevalent in all animate and inanimate life/things. His

spirit is found in Shuniya (cosmic void) of all kind of matter

consisting of atoms with unsuspected vitality. Because of His spirit

prevalent in shuniya, matter is not inert.

 

Since Man is born in the image of God, human beings are also tri-ani-

pada. Immortal soul resides in our divine body, spirit resides in

our subtle body and gross instruments in our material body. Those

who consider material gross body as the real self will always find

difficult to know formless and ineffable universal God.

 

Incidentally formeless and ineffable Universal God is Brahma- name

derived from Brahmand and other gods in human form are Iswaras.

Iswaras are not the gods of entire mankind.

with regards,

Prem Sabhlok

 

 

--------------------------------

Dear sarphod,

 

God is in nature,he can only be felt.His power is dwelling

everywhere in the nature in the form of cosmic vibratioins .If we

can tune our mind with the same frequency by way of sadhana we can

feel the godliness of the nature.How a sperm can create a body with

life is the proof of the supernatural power of the god. So far we

are only establishing the things which are existing, but we are

unable to establish about the source of the existence.

Our ultimate goal our of life is to reuntite ourselves with the

nature from where we have come.Nothing extra to be thought about

god. Living close to the nature is living near god. But the senses

attached to our body always act against our realisation

process.controling the senses is the biggest challenge of our life.

Let us teach our children about righteous way of living ,think

naturally and live naturally.

 

with regards

Ramana kothuri

 

-------------------------------

--------------------------------

The questions of Mr Sarphod Tabalchi are basic questions. I too

dont believe that the Supreme Power would not leave any pointers or

logics of His existence. From where to pick the thread ? I dont

agree with Mr Sarvottam that God can not be seen by His beloved

ones.. There has to be nothing which is beyond the powers of

Supreme. One principle came from Mike's narration and Mr Vyas'

message that before " big bang " too something existed or that if

there is creation then there must be a creator. But how that is

exclusive prorogative of God only ? Creativity is universal symptom

and authority. Spiders are also creators as per Mike Keenor. Please

elaborate with reference to Sarphod's questions. What about five

elements? Are they creators? Are not these elements playing the

transformation game? I think more serious and direct discussions are

warranted on the subject, not just belief stricken answers. First

the logics/rationales have to be exhausted.

 

Luca Brasi

----------------------------

 

Jai Kali Mata

 

What is meant by " No one knows about time!!! " Also, I am unclear as

to how this is relevant to the questions asked? Is this idea about

time, emanated out of teachings of Shraddheya Swamiji referred by

him? Kindly clarify !

 

Bandook Singh

 

--------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

 

RESUBMITTED WITH SOME CORRECTIONS

 

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

You have asked -

 

1) Where is God, I have never seen Him?

Answer: Paramatma is not an individual that you or any one can

simply see. Existence - IS-ness (sattaa maatre) has been given the

name Paramatma. Otherwise there is no name for that Existence or all

Names are only Paramatma's (Supreme Consciousness's) Names.

 

2) Who has seen Him?

Answer: Paramatma has not been seen by anyone to date and in future

too Paramatma will not be ever seen. Shraddhey Swamiji has stated

that Paramatma can be believed, not known, nor seen. Beyond this

whatever anyone says, is questionable.

 

3) How is He?

Answer: How, where, when, what, why, such questions regarding

Parmatma are pointless. That which cannot be known, it cannot be

described at all.

 

4) What are you able to know " Time " (samay). This question has been

asked regarding time (whose beginning and end is unknown to us). It

is not a question about the watch or the interval. It is not only

you, but no one understands anything about " time " . They can say

nothing about time. Then why do you believe in time? Similarly

believe and accept Paramatma, it will be nothing but gain.

 

5) This same work is also performed by men through establishment of

laws. Just as all do not believe in the law, similarly, everyone

continues to speak and share for correcting one's foolishness, and

according to one's own convenience and conformance giving that

tattva a " form " . You too can speak about the same as well.

 

6) 'Existence' itself is 'Paramaatmaa'. Where can any supportive

arguments and evidence exist to establish the existence

of 'Existence' (named Paramaatmaa)? Then where is one to get the

support of this essential elemental belief 'ASTITTVA'? Reasoning-

deliberation-discussion (tark), proof-evidence (pramaan) can be of

that thing which we know. But Paramatma is not known and cannot ever

be known, then this reasoning and seeking evidence is not in

conformance to that reasoning.

 

7) Do you want Paramatma? or do you want an instruction manual or

an aphorism (sutra) to grab hold of Paramatma? Don't get caught up

in the vicious cycle of trying to find an instruction manual.

Leaving the search, become engaged in " Chup Saadhan " (Effortless

Awareness, Discipline of Silence). All quest, and inquiry will be

quietened, will become still.

 

Please kindly forgive any limitations in the expression / words

used.

 

Vineet Sarvottam

--------------------------

 

Hari Om

 

How to know what is beyond knowledge - is the moot question.

 

Logic/Rationale !! Proof !!! Sample !! Consider the following:

 

1 .Whatever we are able to see on this earth there is always a

creator /manufacturer - be it an allpin, pen, table, house, machine,

house, bed, watch, pen, paper, cloth or aircraft. Anything visible.

Then there should be creator of oceans, fire, air, mountains, earth,

Sun. Moon, stars also !

 

God is the creator of all. - CREATOR

 

2. Whatever thing which moves , be it car, aircraft, bicycle,

machine, computer, - there is always a controller thereof. Earth

also moves. Sun/Moon also move. Oceans remain in their limits. Sun

rises and sets perfectly without fail. There must be a controller of

them also!

 

God is the controller of all- CONTROLLER

 

Q BUT A HUMAN BEING ALSO CREATES ! WHAT IS SO IMPORTANT ABOUT IT ?

 

Ans A human being cannot " create " anything! It is only " nature "

which creates! You can only change the shape thereof. You can covert

gold into ornaments or iron into sword or utensil, but you can't

create gold or iron ! Only nature provides that. You can mix two or

more elements, formulate, change shape only. You can create . You

can " discover " only.

 

To be continued.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

-------------------------

Kindly read bertrand russel

Aranha Roy

 

---------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

Let us continue further on the subject and build on what sadhakas

have said.

Please, it may sound too intellectual, but it is not! It may humble

us!

Consider this: If we need to know/study any object, the object has

to exist in

the first place.

Even if we cannot know the object, we always know it exists. This

knowing of an

existence is prior to the knowledge of its nature, attributes,

function etc.

The Universe is a collection of objects, and can be said to be one

Existence

fundamentally. Individual objects within it are individual

existences localized

in space and time over which they exist, and change to other forms,

continuing

the existences.

When we say Universe we mean the Existence only. Even the word

Universe points

to the Existence first. How do we know such Existence itself? Only

by being

aware/cognizant of it, no other way. So the Existence is awareness

of Existence.

To see what is prior to such Existence, there has to be Awareness to

know

whether or not such Existence IS. Thus Awareness as Existence has to

be

beginningless! What is after the Existence, non-existence? no,

because to say

it, there has to be Awareness of non-existence. If there is

Awareness of

non-existence, IS-ness is established. Thus that which IS, the

Existence(without

division into many objects), is eternally free of time and space

containing all

objects(names/forms) in time and space by creating mind and endowing

it with

this ability in terms of thoughts/feelings. Gita in 2:16 says the

real never

ceases to be.

Such Awareful Existence has to be most Powerful, Intelligent,

Beautiful, full of

Love and Blissful which is our experience. Can we not call this God?

God means Such Intelligence as seen through those who serve, and love

unconditionally, those who fight for Dharma, the righteousness, and

those who

preach God's message!

Evil actions come out from not realizing the Truth of Eternal

Oneness, GOD!

Namaskar.............Pratap Bhatt

 

 

 

----------------------------

My answer is simply to a question which has been indirectly

asked: " Why can't I see Him? "

Because He is the Seer. You are what you are looking for. It is

subjective awareness.

The problem lies with the word 'God' because we then suppose a

distinct being like a tribal deity. No, it is Awareness, Supernal-

consciousness. This is the Vedantic way. Find out who you really

are, not how others see you, but from your subjective perspective,

and you'll find what you're looking for.

Rishi Handa

 

----------------------------

Wonderful expression by Pratap (Bhatt) Bhai

 

Further, a simple but serious exercise could help in understanding

this.....

Sarphodji, ask yourself " who is asking these questions? "

" Who wants to know God? " ....and wait for the answer....

see what comes from deep inside.....

 

but you have to have patience.....and keep asking/repeating the

questions....

In fact when you come across any such question, ask yourself

who is this who wants to know this, who is asking the question?....

 

and wait for the answers and experience that follows.......

Best wishes

Sushil Jain

 

--------------------------------

I am a believer of God. Like one person said in the e-mail below, I

went through that 'show me God to believe' stage when I was around

22 years - 26 years. I was God lover before and again lover now. I

do not really know and I do not think with my limited ablity I can

ever know. At the same time I am not blind follower too. I am open

to all these 6 questions coming from a logical person because I had

them before too and have them now too. Before - with doubt, now -

with wonder and amazement.

 

Knowing God is a long journey. I am on the journey, I beleive I am

gradually understanding the divine concept. I am understanding them

through others, specially our ancestors, Indian scriptures. There

are great concepts, ideas and explanations, there are trash also

amongst them. I am amazed at the power of those ideas and

explanations. They attempted volumes and spent 100s of years to find

God and explain the divinity. Can I really understand all this in my

life? I doubt, which is why its a journey for me. Can I see God? It

depends on. I feel divinity in some great people, in their ideas for

humanity - around me.

 

OK, when somebody asks the question 'show me God', what they are

asking us is 'show me Jesus, Show me Shiva or show me Vishnu'. I

doubt if any one has seen God in these forms. Unless the divine

power appears so for any. As for God in its full form - Can I

imagine the distance between the Earth and the nearest star (Alpha

Centauri - about 4 light years away). I cannot imagine that

distance - however logically I think. Can I see God then - which is

full of this universe? Impossible to imagine. Then how can I see

God, unless God willingly appears to me.

 

My dear friend, answers to those 6 questions need volumes of

explanation or simply experiecing of the divine power - depending on

where you stand on the quest for God. Its a journey, so please

discuss with people who have done the research (of your 6 questions

before) and experience the facts yourself. You still go through the

oscillations of belief and disbeliefs, but if your quest is sincere

you will start seeing light at the end of tunnel.

 

The above does not give straight answers to even one of your

questions. So thanks for your time, if at all you read through this

until now.

 

Venu Gopal

--------------------------------

 

 

PRIOR POSTING

I will come at these questions in a hard nosed manner, maybe I am

blessed as I too waved aside religions when younger but traveled full

circle to The Beloved, who I dearly love with my absolute being.

 

Question 6: There has to be some basis for his existence? What are

the logics which point towards the existence of God? From where to

pick the thread?

O.K. I would ask the skeptical young, (I will call him S. ), tell me

S. how did this Godless Universe begin? He may be a brilliant

physicist, good chance though, regardless S will start to talk about

the 'big bang', the question would then be, o.k. S. was there

substance, was there energy, and was there time, before the 'Event'?

I would ask S. also when this energy of the bang runs out what

then?, I would press the point home that the Great Indians

Traditions had a good explanation for all this many millennium

before the present time, and is probably a good guide for the

scientists. Oh! I would ask my young friend S. where did the laws of

physics come from? Apparently they are unique, the laws had to be

spot on for there to be an existance, that is what the physicist

seem to be saying.

 

I would ask S. one other thing, how is it possible for a spider to

build the perfect web according to its kind, without actually being

taught.

 

I would say to S., think about it, think about it, be tenacious, be

mercilessness, and be brave, let your desire for the truth take you

where it will, just hang in there! S. my friend I was once like you,

maybe one day we can really talk.

 

With Respect and Divine Love,

 

Mike Keenor

------------------------

 

Dear Sadak,

 

1. Where is God I have never seen Him?EXAMPLES Most children know

water is H2O (Hydrogen 2 parts and Oxygen 1 part) ask them them to

show hydrogen and oxygen showing water. Next show them Yogurt (Curd)

and ask them to show milk. Bigger children ask them to show planets.

Then tell then from Sanskrit slokas-- " God is apprameyam " that which

cannot be seen or known by senses as in case of above examples, as

God can be only known by Gyana (knowledge)

2. Who has seen Him? Like in case of scientist tell as per above

examples, so does Saints tell. Only a saint (Guru) can show God as

shown to Vivekananda by Swamy Ramakrishna

3. How is He? Slokas say: Aroopamai, Aksharamai. Roopam, Akandamai,

Viratroopamai Etc. No definite shape as HE appears in the form that

the devotee wants. HE is in sounds - Om, HE is like Sri Krishna/Sri

Rama Etc, Omnipresent (That cosmic energy filled in everything), HE

is in all shapes and forms.

4. If I dont know how do I accept? Contemplate. If you accept that

there is Galaxies then contemplate what energy is performing whole

universe, like in the case of any toy needs battery, car need petrol

or fuel, computer need electricity etc. Still do not want to accept-

Leave it.

 

Jai Sri Krishna

 

baiya sathyanarayan

-----------------------------

 

All questions arise out of answers. When one asks a question

either he needs a confirmation of the answer which he already has

or he is answering his own question. When somebody is asking a

question relating to God, first he has to explain what is in his

mind when he says or thinks of GOD.

 

Einstein said that the world is an optical illusion. We think and

feel that we are separated from the rest. This is an optical

illusion. We have no direct contact with the outside world. All

the sensorial data has to filter through our optical nerve and our

mind (delusion). So we have no idea of what is exactly out there.

When one realizes this he comes closer to God or some superior

knowledge.

 

To realise that we are the debris of God is the supreme

realisation.

 

The most mysterious thing holds the most important key. Death is

the most mysterious thing. Death holds the most important key.

 

When death happens. The soul/consciousness releases out of the

cage (body � which is always subjected to three dimensional view

and

linear concept of time and space), one will realize or merge with

God

 

H. Subair

 

 

------------------------------

dear pratapji,thank u for giving us such wonderful knowledge.person

like you are really god's gift to us.

bhargav mehta

------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Re: Does God (Paramatma) Exist? Where is the Proof? What

is the logic ?

 

Through that supreme devotion he comes to know Me in reality, what

and how great I am; and thereby knowing Me in essence he forthwith

enters into My being.

 

Gita - Chapter 18 Sloka : 55

 

Sundara Raghavendran

---------------------------

 

Deaar Sadhakas, Namaste!

When someone says " where is God? I have never seen Him " , that person

has to know what God is that he expect to see, otherwise he cannot

ask the question. The question comes from the implicit assumption

that God is some imagination, ideas, knowledge, belief, etc. in the

mind and what I see out there is definitely not " God " .

So it is better to rephrase the question back to What God is first.

When that is understood, all questions by Tabalchiji will get

answered.

Consider the following dialogue:

Q: Do you have a doubt about your own existence?

A: No, I know I exist beyond a shadow of doubt. It is so obvious to

me!

Q: How do you know you exist?

A: I don't know HOW, but I am sure I DO!

Q: Do you need any help of another person, scripture, or some

logical explanation to confirm you do exist?

A: Definitely not, even if they say I don't exist, I know I do,

because it is experiential within me now. I don't even need any

sense organs-mind-intellect to tell me I exist!

 

So, it is self-evident existence, of " beingness " we all feel within

us, and by which we know what is knowable in this world as objects

of knowledge. This experience of Being Conscious is always with us,

never are we away from IT, not even in our sleep when body-mind-

world are all gone no one knows where! But I am always!

I just have to find out that ultimately this " I " is Impersonal and

is of the nature of Existence-Consciousness which we call God!

Personal God of Bhakta appears in this Impersonal!

Based on this, I can conclude that God is not a particular object

among many objects we know through sense organs, mind and intellect.

It is THE UNIQUE and objectless EXPERIENCE!

It is like our eyes who cannot see themselves and yet know their

existence beyond any shadow of doubt because SEEING takes place

automatically by just Being.

Once it is grasped, it can lead to God Realization!

Namaskar...

 

Pratap Bhatt

 

-------------------------------

 

My dear Sarphod,

There is a very beautiful story from ancient times that I have

heard from my guru. Once, a king called his minister and said, " I

want you to answer two questions.....otherwise your position will be

at stake.....first, can you show me God. Secondly, what is God

doing right now?

The minister was in anxiety. He went home, began searching

through various scriptures....wondering if he would have a job the

next day. His small son approached him, and noticing his father's

perplexity, inquired, " What troubles you, father? " The father

responded, " Oh, this is not something you would understand. " At

the child's persistence, the father finally explained. The small

child smiled, and simply said, " Father, that is so easy to

answer.....just tell the king that even a small child can answer

these inquiries, and I will then give him my responses " .

The father had no choice, as he didn't know the way to

respond. So, when the child came before the king, he requested the

king, " First, please have a pot of milk brought forth. " The king did

so. Then the child inquired, " Is there ghee in this milk? " The

king said, " Yes, it is there. " Then the child explained, " It is

there, but you cannot see it. Why can you not see the ghee? " The

king said, " There is a process by which the ghee will be brought

forth, of course, first one must churn the milk into butter, then

the butter is slowly heated until the ghee rises to the

surface......only after one patiently follows this process will he

see the ghee. " As the king was speaking, slowly realization came

into his heart, that similarly, one cannot demand to see God at this

moment....there is a process. One who's heart is not pure, who

does not have love and devotion, cannot see the Lord, but He will

certainly reveal Himself to those who are willing to accept the

process of " bringing forth the ghee " .

The child then said, " You are asking me what God is doing.

That is putting me in the postion of teacher, and you as disciple.

So, is it appropriate for you to be sitting on your throne, if you

are learning from me? " The wise King immediately pleced the child

on the throne, and sat in front of him, ready to try to understand

his next lesson. " This is what God is doing " ....he said. " He is

taking someone from a low position and putting him into a high

position, according to the results of his work, and taking someone

else from a high position and putting him into a low position. "

The king was very pleased with the child's answers, and rewarded him

and his father.

So, one may say, " I don't accept such simplistic

responses " .....well, then, such a person will never see the Lord,

unless and until he is fortunate enough to get the association of a

sadhu, by whose association one's heart melts. When one truly

comes into contact and develops some sukrti by contact with a God

consscious person, there is no material, anaytical way to explain

what happens. It is beyond our mundane intelligence, our ability to

analyze. So, simply pray for the youth you are hoping to guide,

and gradually perhaps the mercy of the sadhus will come to them.

It is not a mechanical process.

I hope my words have been gentle, encouraging, and helpful.....it

is truly a sadness which we all share as parents if our children

become somewhat agnostic or doubtful of the underestanding of the

Lord's presence, and the need for ancient, eternal tradition. We

can only pray to be the best examples of loving, patient friends for

them that we can possibly be.

 

respectfully,

Mahalaksmi Dasi

 

-------------------------------

Sarphod,

 

Read Paramahansa Yogananda's book " the Autoibgraphy of a Yogi "

published by Self Realization Fellowship, Los Angeles, CA.

 

Haley H. Haynes

--------------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

In this posting I would like to build on my previous post.

We as parents must deeply understand the truth of who we are, what

is the nature of world and God first. Then only we can explain to

our children. I would shy away to tell children that because it is

said in our scriptures, you have to believe in God being such and

such.

 

We can begin on the path of knowledge with the premise. That which

always IS irrespective of time, location or cause, is Truth. Truth,

thus, cannot be denied and has to be our continuous experience

always, not some states we experience that come and go, rather That

in which all states of experiences happen.

 

In the beginning it may sound like intellectual, but understanding

of that which always IS, has to be our real nature, or Reality of

whatever we all seem to experience dawns on us sooner rather than

later. What is Reality, then?

If we continue to inquire, we may find that whether I am in joyful,

or painful or sad or indifference or even in depressed

situations, " I am " always present and " knowingness " of these various

situations I am in is also always present too, which I never notice

due to my attachments/aversions to situations. These situations

eventually disappear but not " I " .

What is the nature of this I that we all say I when referring to

ourselves? Whatever it is, for sure it IS! This ISNESS-I is the most

certain experience and is Truth. Even if I see illusion, I or seeing

is the truth. This seeing then is communicated as I see an object(or

hear, taste, smell, touch, think, feel etc). I and seeing is

synanymous as consciousness.

 

Now extend this to outer world. Regardless of objects we perceive

out there, Being Conscious of them is the only truth of our

experience. Thus, alleged external world is nothing but ONE

Undivided/Whole Existence/Consciousness(Absolute) in our experience.

Mind is given to us to divide the Existence into different objects

for practical and Divine play. When we come to this understanding,

our attitude towards world changes to one of dispassion, devotion

and to serve it as God, in whatever ways we can. We see God

everywhere our eyes fall upon!

This is God relization.

Namaskar.............Pratap Bhatt

 

GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES:

1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify their doubts

related to Gitaji shlokas. Therefore, responses which further

clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be posted.

2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to

substantiate your response.

3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the

extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas

4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting

sadhaka's time.

5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only.

6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other

organizations.

7. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone

number, address etc.

8. Please do not address the response to a particular individual

since the message is going to the entire group.

9. Due to the large readership, all responses may not be posted.

10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if content

is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the group.

11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth,

westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use to Sanskrit

words only, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit bracketed

wherever possible.

 

MODERATOR

Ram Ram

------------------------

 

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Posted

My question is that how to prove that there exists a super natural

power called " God " ? At least how to explain that. How to correlate

His existence with the character of the world? Children now a days

need more than belief to accept. Can there be any way vide which we

can establish that God exists. If some body says say :

1. Where is God I have never seen Him?

2. Who has seen Him?

3. How is He?

4. If I dont know how do I accept?

5. God is a term coined by elders to put moral shackles over us so

that we may indulge in goodness.

6. There has to be some basis for his existence? What are the logics

which point towards the existence of God? From where to pick the

thread?

 

Sarphod Tabalchi

 

 

NEW POSTING

 

Hare Krishna

 

God is worshipped in 3 forms:

1. Attributeless-Formless (Nirgun-Nirakar)

2. Attribute-Formless (Sagun-Nirakar)

3. Attribute-Form (Sagun-Sakar)

 

Goswami Tulsidasji has said

" NIRGUN ROOP SULABH ATI SAGUN JAAN NAHI KOI "

" The attributeless form of Parmatma is very easy to understand but

no one can know the form of Parmatma with attributes. "

 

The first form of Attributeless-Formless Pramatma can be proved by

logic of uninterrupted existence (akhand satta). The second form of

Attribute-Formless (Sagun-Nirakar) Parmatma can be proved by logic

of conscious and sentient Creator, Sustainer and Destroyer.

 

But the third form of Parmatma with form and attributes (Ram,

Krishna, Shiva etc.) cannot be proved by any logic, rationale etc.

They can only be believed with purport of Gita, Ramayan, Sadhak-

Sanjivani etc.

If anyone argues over Ram being God then questions like these will

arise " In forest how did Lord Ram get deceived by a gold-deer? If He

is deceived then how is He Omniscient? Why did Lord take the help of

Sugreev's army? If He takes help then how come is He Almighty?.... "

 

When Lord Ram killed Ravan's mighty brothers Khar and Dushan, Ravan

decided to examine whether the Omniscient and Almighty Parmatma has

taken Ram-avatar. He kidnapped Sitaji (with disguise of an ascetic)

by deceiving Lord with a golden-deer. Lord failed in the examination

and Ravan was successful in his evil plan, but what was the end

result? Lord Ram destroyed the entire clan of Lankan demons

alongwith Ravan.

 

That is why Goswamiji has said

" RAM ATARKYA BUDDHI KAR JAANI "

" Lord Ram cannot be known by intellect. "

 

Faith in Parmatma with form and attributes (known as Bhagwan) can

only be developed when one does satsang. Reading scriptures is also

one form of Satsang.

 

Hare Krishna

Varun P. Paprunia

 

 

Hare Krishna

Dear Sarphod Uncle,

 

I sincerely apologize to you and your family for the language I have

used. I thought you were just trying to outsmart us with your

intellectual prowess so I used the same ploy on you; but Sir you are

a true sadhak. Sadhanaji, Mikeji recognized you but because of my so-

called cleverness I did not recognize you. Again my sincere

apologies for the usage of harsh words and blunt language.

 

Hare Krishna

Varun P. Paprunia

------------------------------

Om, God = generator orgniser destroyer.Do you see the air? No

suppose you don't see the air then you can't see the energies in the

air that sustain our body. Suppose you want to hold a grand party

of 5000 people continuing 15 days, then how much work you have to

do, you will distribute your work among your relatives. Think of

God is a organising 600 crores or more ( not only about earth but

think about whole universe). Think who has that Supreme organizing

power ! You or God. God is in every thing from atom to Everest.

Suppose you made a car that each and every thing came from you means

each part of car made from you, by you. That is God. He is

colourless, touchless, soundless, shapeless because he is supreme

energy. If you trust and have faith in God. you will trust on

god.this is the one kind of work of god. because hi is ruling on

us.Whether you go to the church or any mandir or masjid, your needs

by pleading to your superior… He is That. And you say upon

fulfilling your wish - " thank God " What is that power that is

fulfilling your needs? Whether small or a big one, it is fulfilled

and often no by your effort

 

Hari Om,

nilesh popat mali,

 

-------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

 

To Respected Sadhaks of this really divine , perhaps the only of its

kind across the globe, Satsanga Group!

 

It is me, Dear Brothers, with my Dear Begum Sahibaa respectfully

thanking you all for gems of wisdom which you imparted to me and to

the world. An association of people like you, group like yours, is

or can only be God willed. Indeed, with people like Vyasji, (

extremely polished and never contradicting. Must be the one who has

seen/ touched the " dukhalayam " very closely, very wisely and won

over the same), Mike Keenor ( You are pride of the very humanity)

Varun, ( I am sure he is younger than many of us- his impetuosity/

quick reaction reflects that, but very clever and very organised-

Refer Gita 16/1 - jnanayogarvyavasthitam- an ideal young follower)

Pratapji Bhatt ( Spl regards for you, for not firing me back) , that

real fire

brand Dear Sister of all of us Shashikalajee ( What a

sharp discrimination you have been blessed with ! ), Mira Dassji (

An impartial devotee /follower of Respected Swamiji Ramsukhdasji

Maharaaj), Rajaji, Baiyaji and dozens like them, are the jewels of

this divine forum. My heartfelt pranaams to Vineetji Sarvottam. His

comments were innocent and correct.

 

Thanks Again

Sarphod Tabalchi

Raseeli Rani Tabalchi

 

--------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

 

Dear Sadhak,

Yes, Sadhakji, you are a Sadhak-a seeker of Truth,this is what my

Krishna says--

 

Chatur-vidha bhajante maam janh sukrutinorjuna!

Aarto jijnasuj-arthaarthi jnaani cha bharatarshabha! (Gita 7 / 16)

 

O Arjuna! There are four types of noble souls who worship Me : The

afflicted, the seekers of knowledge, the seekers of enjoyment and

the wise.

 

Gigyasu - seekers of knowledge.

 

The main barrier in not seeing God here and now is that you are

using wrong tool my dear.You want to see God through yr mind, which

itself is Asat.A traveller of Gyaan Marg, must know the difference

between Sat and Asat.He must disconnect himself from everything

which is Asat(temporary, everchanging). He needs to drop/disconnect

himself from everything-the world, its relations, his own body,

senses, mind, intellect, ego..... When everything is dropped there

remains NOTHING.Just Nothing...simply Nothing.....

From that NOTHING emerges Peace, Love and Bliss. From that Nothing

emerges EVRYTHING... This is the beauty of Gyaan Yoga.

 

And the most wonderful,the most amazing truth about my beloved

Krishna is---He(God) becomes whatever you want Him to be. When we

see HIM as our protector, He rushes to rescue us as in the case of

Dropadi, when we see Him as our Friend, He becomes our friend as in

the case of Sudama, when we accept HIM as all powerful miraculous

being, miracles start unfolding in our lives.When we see HIM in a

statue, he becomes motionless. He is everywhere in all forms,and

without forms too, just we are unable to see him due to our own

limited vision.

When we accept HIM as our Guide and Guru, like Arjuna did, and wish

to see HIS Vishwaroopa, He bestow us divine vision and we see Him in

everything, everywhere. I see many people saying God does not exist,

money is God..ect, etc. So what, He does not hesitate to become non

existence for them, still showering His Love....No discrimination in

His regime.

 

He just " IS " . I love Swamiji the way He describes HIM. Somewhere

Swamiji said-He IS or He IS NOT, this " IS " remains the same in both

the statement(nahi main bhi hai or hai main bhi hai).wow...How

blessed this human form is!!!

 

How divine this forum is!!!

Lets be Love, Peace and Bliss !

Shivoham! Shivoham!!

With lots of Love,

A Sadhika

Sadhna Karigar

------------------------------

 

1. Where is God I have never seen Him? You cant see HIM as HE is an

object. Have you seen Saturn planet? How do you belive that

scientist? You belive based on Knowledge. In temples 2000 years old

there are nine planets know as Nava Graha. How they saints knew

without scientific proof.

2. Who has seen Him? 100 `s of saints.

3. How is He? HE is formless and with form or any form HIS devote

needs.

4. If I dont know how do I accept? If you dont know, try to know.

Still your if you fail- It Gods will.

5. God is a term coined by elders to put moral shackles over us so

that we may indulge in goodness. Why your parents put morals as

shakles to put you good charactor. So is God put. Just understand

it. If you think shackles you are mistaking. If you think guidance

you will progress.

6. There has to be some basis for his existence? What are the logics

which point towards the existence of God? From where to pick the

thread? Nine planets and earth are in space floating. Who made them?

You want to make something you gather material and put your effort

to make project. So there is someone who is behind all and your

thinking capacity. Otherwise could be a lay man.

Jai Sri Krishna

baiya sathyanarayan

------------------------------

Pranam

 

God exists. If you want solid evidence I recommend you search

on " milkmiracle " You will see for your self.

 

bvm

Jai Shree Ram

------------------------------

 

Dear Mumukshus (those who yearn for Divinity), Namaste. For those

who yearn for Divinity's Peak Experience, no such doubt arises; in

fact their question would be why shd they have doubt in God!

Doubting God takes one nowhere.

 

Trying to reach the divinity is the correct way. There is no proof

of the dreams we have very regularLy. They don't 'exist' in the

sense of all these existing objects, you see.

 

WHERE IS GOD WHOM I DON'T SEE:

Do you 'see' the radio waves, electricity, magnetism? Do you see

love, hatred, jealousy? Do they not exist? Why all shd be visible?

 

WHO HAS SEEN HIM?

A lot of people have 'witnessed' 'Him to whom the divinity has

revealed 'itself'.

 

WHO IS HE? - HOW IS HE LIKE?

He is She and is That. One form for one thing is inapplicable in

that experience of visioning the Reality which is The Absolute among

the experiences.

 

IF I DON'T KNOW HOW DO I ACCEPT?

The dead people, unborn people, people who are far away - you can't

see them. Do you lose belief in such invisible all? Be honest in

answering these abstract questions.

 

GOD IS A SCHAKLE . . . GOODNESS.

God is not directly linked to morality, goodness, honesty, kindness

etc which we teach for our youngsters to whom we want good future

and for building in them the moral character which saves our

society. All honest people won't see God; no dishonest person can

see God.

 

THERE HAS TO BE SOME BASIS FOR THE EXISTENCE OF GOD. WHAT ARE THE

LOGICS FOR THE EXISTENCE OF GOD? FROM WHERE TO PICK THE THREAD?

We do ask for proofs for the objective things only. God as

transcendental baffles those objectives. There is no harm in the

disbelief about God. But missing a chance of His experience while

born as human beings is to miss a great opportunity. We do all those

things of happiness. enjoying etc for which we can afford. We can

afford to have a Peak Experience in this human life. Why not try?

If you surf the Youtube on the Internet, try among them the

spiritual masters' sayings. Ramana Maharshi, Nisargadutta

Maharaj . . there are scores of them who are the proofs of God.

You may want to read Tony Parsons book, 'The Open Secret'.

 

I am not glorifying him or anybody in this context. I wanted to

share with people who are seekers like me. I wish all our people the

best of luck during this Christmas and Happiness in the New Year.

 

Dr Shastry

--------------------------------

1. Where is God I have never seen Him? You cant see HIM as HE is NOT

an object. Have you seen Saturn planet? How do you belive that

scientist? You believe based on Knowledge. In temples 2000 years old

there are nine planets know as Nava Graha. How they saints knew

without scientific proof.

2. Who has seen Him? 100 `s of saints. In Duryodhan Shaba when Sri

Krishna took Virat roop, everyone folded their hand and seen HIM as

God except Duryodhan who told it was illusion.

3. How is He? HE is formless and with form or any form HIS devote

needs.

4. If I dont know how do I accept? If you dont know, try to know.

Still your if you fail- It Gods will. Yasodha accepted Sri Krishna

with love and compassion, so she tie HIM up with rope to a roller.

Duryodhan wanted to tie up Sri krishna who took Virat roop unable to

tie up. It is the way you accept.

Jai Sri Krishna

 

baiya sathyanarayan

 

PRIOR POSTING

Jai Hanuman

 

I agree entirely with Usha Sridhar. Dear Sister! Keep writing

regularly . You are precise, accurate and perfect. So is Sister

Anita- absolutely correct and " really " .practical and therefore on

the path of Gita 7:19 ! Welcome Brother Wilson ! Welcome Ram Bhai !

O Daddy the Great ! Let such " Divinity " continue flowing unto this

GT Group ! So Pleasing ! So unbelievable !! So many reasons to

exclaim with pleasure- " Brilliant " !

 

Thanks Sarphod ! How is your Begum Sahibaa ! It is a sin to make her

cry- Get me ? SIN - I say! Do you understand what is sin? " Anguish

of your soul " is most of the times " your sin " - also ! Almost

Always!

 

Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj would often say that what is the proof

that Mr X is your father - BASED ON YOUR PERSONAL/ INDIVIDUAL/

REMEMBERED/EXPERIENTIAL- " KNOWLEDGE " ?

 

No body, come what may, has been able to " prove " in the past, nor

can they do so in the present , nor will they be able to " prove "

that in the future ! Nor can there be any possibility of proving

that. If you can't " prove " the existence of your even this father on

earth, how can you prove the existence of your " eternal father " ?

 

Reason: " Self " Proven ! Obvious !! Beyond Mind/ Intellect/Ego !

 

" Acceptance " / " Faith " / " Belief " - is the only remedy. If some body

wants to argue on this - Come On !! Hats off to you Brother

Wilson !! Please keep contributing and participating in this

Satsanga forum!

 

Mike Bhaiyya ! I gleefully noted three things in your latest

message -

 

1 An Aussie !

2 Clever 'little' dialogue!! ( Jeeva -Maya - Jagdish. Maya is in the

center. Noted that Brother? Between the two ! )

 

Above all -

 

3 Flowers in the Sky !!!!

 

(What an effort by You? What a research ! How well read , indeed !

So difficult! Yet so obvious ! So handy ! So quick - within hours of

posting the 'little dialogue' ! So Self Proven ! So inaccessible !

Yet so easily available !

 

But available in the universe to whom ? Available why ? How timely

and exactly ?

 

Sure, the poem was already existing in this creation / uiniverse for

a long long time- it was not Mike Keenor made- but what about its

manifestation !! )

 

Thanks indeed ! Unbelievable! " DIVINE " !! Do you get us Mr

Sarphod? - We are Sadhaks ! Only " Sadhaks " !

 

Namaste Jee

Jee Jee

Shashikala

---

 

Dear Vyasji,

 

You have answered beautifully. But, the problem is that Tabalchi ji

is more interested in getting 'brilliant' and similar appreciatory

comments from others (as is evident from his second mail).

 

Before trying to know God (Where is God I have never seen Him? is

Tabalchi ji's first question), he should explain what he is. If he

knows about himself, then he will see God's smiling face. Again, the

problem is that Tabalchiji is depending on others even to know " ko

aham (who am I) "

 

May I quote from Shankara ? " KASHTWAM KOHAM KUTAH AAYAATAH, KA ME

JANANI KO ME TATAH " (who are you, who am I, from where have I come,

who is my mother and who is my father).

 

Kind regards,

Suresh C Sharma

 

PRIOR POSTING

Hari Om

 

One who has thirst inside, only can see water. If there is no

thirst, inspite of water being in your front, it is not noticed by

you. Similarly , one who has thirst for God only can " see " God, and

one who has thirst for world only, " sees " the world.

 

It is your desire which in fact determines what you can or can not

see- IRRESPECTIVE OF WHAT IN FACT EXIST OR DOES NOT EXIST.

 

Because of your desire for the world only you see the world which in

reality NEVER EXISTS. Because of your non-desire only you can not

see God who in reality ALWAYS EXISTS !!

 

Want to see God? Mr Sarphod? Develop desire for Him !!

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

----------------------------

 

Dear members,

 

This is the first time I am writing on this forum - not because I

didnt wish to comment earIier, but only because I am too young in

this stage - by experience and by learning.

However, looking at the questions raised below, I thought I should

at least share my feelings:

 

1.God is no external being - he or she is part of each one of us -

all living beings. So please, do not try to explain to children that

god is some type of other person. And therefore, each one of us has

the responsibility to lead a life which moves towards positivity,

looking at betterment, and not hurting people, beings by our act.

 

Seeing GOD - we all have. Only some have realised him. He is in my

maid who comes to work each morning, he is in my child - who hugs me

every time I meet him, he is in my husband - who lives with me and

has made my life complete. I have seen him in the rickshaw walla -

who stopped by me to offer me ride to office yesterday. I see him

every day in different forms - sometimes, I too do not realise that

it was him who smiled in the morning and made my day. Everytime you

meet a person who does good to you - he or she is a reflection of

GOD. So, see god in all and see all in him.

2.The world is like stage (as Shakespears has said) - and all of us

are in here to play a role - be it tree, human, animal, you and me.

And so is a child here to play a role. All our roles are defined by

this supreme power, whom we call GOD.

 

3. There are many happenings in our life which we humans are not

able to explain - all this we credit to that UnKnowable

force/energy - GOD.

 

Try to see GOD in your family - your parents, your collegues, your

neighbours, and all the people whom you meet - search for that light

in them and do a small good act to make them happy. GOD would be

there with you!

 

Anita Sharma

-------------------------

Maybe my use of the word brilliant, can be misconstrued,a little too

Aussie, it was intended as a exclamation of pleasure.

 

I know you are playing the roll of 'devils advocate', as clearly you

would understand, Maya and Jeeva in Jee Jee Shashikalaji's clever

little dialog.

 

Best to direct a single question to a Sadhak/Sadhaks.

 

 

See Zen poem below:(Emptiness in full Bloom).

 

 

Leaping from the Ledge of Infinite Regress,

The Unmoved Mover fell into Formlessness:

Pure silence echoed between the galaxies,

Eons of eons vanished in a second,

Withered trees bloomed in fires,

Polar mountains melted, rivers went dry,

Thusness scattered in sixty directions,

Space became Time, time became things,

Black Holes filled with Nirvana,

A billion samadhi mirrors shattered,

Galaxies snuggled within a single skull,

Many became One, One only, only One.

Then, the Divine Illuminatrix in All Beings

Opened Her clouded Eye, to see:

Flowers in the Sky.

 

With Respect and Divine Love,

 

Mike Keenor

 

--------------------------

Hari Om.

 

Respected sir,

I've studied from my childhood that mother

is our first GOd.

We can see God only through our mother,father and Guru.

Where is the proof that you came through your mother's womb?

If you can explain how you passed through your mother with proof,

I can explain with Krushna's Grace the true Krushna provided you

have the permission to see Krushna.

Rest in my next.

Hari Om.

With Regards,

Ushasridhar.

 

--------------------------

 

Jesus Says.

I am the way, I am the Truth, I am the Faith. Please read the Bible.

thanks

Wilson Kochukunju

 

 

Dear Mr. Sarfod & friends,

 

Since the beginning of human civilization, the question whether

there is a God (or Gods), has occupied the human mind. It has also

been answered by various people in various ways in all the ages.

But, the question has persisted till this day.

 

I have my own explanation. I emphatically say that Parmatma does

exist. The entire universe is within Him and He is also beyond the

Universe. He is so great and also so small that nobody can see Him

with his naked eye. He can only be realized. Regarding proof, every

living being and every plant testifies His existence. With his super-

intelligence, man has been able to do most amazing things and

created wonders. But, man is still way behind in creating anything

that is self generating. Every creation of God, on the other hand,

is self-generating and self sustaining. Reproduction is a special

feature of every species. Yet, every species has a life-time after

which it vanishes. Even this earth will meet its death some day. We

see planets and stars dying and new ones coming up every day. This

never ending cyclic order of creation, recreation, assimilation and

re-emergence is a glaring proof of His existence.

 

Yours sincerely,

Ram Bhai

------------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

Varunji, I want to thank you so much for speaking out to Tabalchiji

about I being not judgemental at all. As a friend and a fellow

seeker, I was suggesting, Tabalchiji to read as many times as needed

to grasp the meaning or at least ask questions to clarify points.

Most of us know that when we read or hear 2nd or 3rd time it makes

so much difference in our understanding!

I want to wish you the very best Tabalchiji. One day you may wake up

and find all answers about Truth of God, this world and " you " .

All sadhakas have provided excellent answers/pointers!

Wishing you the best of Xmas Holidays and New Year, my fellow

sadhaks, I remain prayerful!

Namaskar......Pratap Bhatt

 

 

 

 

-------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

-Shree Hari-

 

Sarphodji,

 

You know; the world as you see it, is a shadow of what it really is,

I once heard it described as seeing the reflections of reality on the

back of a cave wall, one has to turn around to see the glory of what

it is.

Most people it seems, focus their whole lives looking at the false

reality reflected on the wall of the cave.

Have we not all read about Yogis with extraordinary abilities? Is

this all lies, do such souls look on the doubters such as yourself,

say nothing, smile or laugh as Lord Krishna laughed, they have

nothing to prove , all the doubters have to do is turn around as it

were, to understand.

 

One great soul that I admire was Swami Vivekananda, to me he seems to

be a man ahead of his time, a person of great intellect, and a

spiritual giant. It was he that aroused the world to the wealth that

India had to give.

 

11th September, 1893: 'Response to welcome' address:

 

" Swami Vivekananda addressed the august assembly of seven thousand

people starting with the words: " Sisters and Brothers of America... " ,

and the whole of audience went into inexplicable rapture with

standing

ovation and clapping that lasted for more than three minutes....... "

 

If you consider you have a mind of sound reasoning, then maybe you

could read the yoga aphorisms, translated by that great Swami. (If

you require any translation).

 

Why does your Lady weep, is it because she sees the anguish of your

soul. No matter what you may say or truly think, you are in conflict,

do you understand ? Jee Jee Shashikalaji has hinted at it, other

Sadhaks have made the point also, things like why ask about that

which

does not exist etc.

Sadhaks have implied that they have been through that battle. I

have,

I will tell you this, how much you reach for Father, how much you cry

for him, the tears of anguish will then turn to tears of joy, when

your heart breaks loose from prison that binds it.

 

You may not understand what I am writing about, but one day you will.

 

With Respect and Divine Love,

 

Mike Keenor

-----------------------------

Dear Sadaks,

I have not seen God yet. That is the reason I am not silent. The one

who has seen God remains silent. Let us not make tell Mr.Sherphod

Vedanta/Upanashids.

1.Where is God I have never seen Him? To see a program on TV, one

needs TV Equipment, Power (electricity), and telecasting tower

2. Who has seen Him? One who has turned his body equipment as a

temple, Power of tuning (Craving to liberate) in mind, as mind has

electricity, magnatism, and telecasting tower (GOD) omnipresent.

Just one has to tune to HIS frequency that is surrender.

3. How is He? HE is benevolent to come in any form you meditate.

4. If I dont know how do I accept? Go on saying any name of HIS.

Eventually HE will tune to your frequency as HE did to Druva.

Jai Sri Krishna

baiya sathyanarayan

----------------------------

 

Dear Sirphod

 

I made a posting on your question. There was no attempt by me or for

that matter by any body (from the posts I see) who could give you

answers like you might be expected.

 

If you want to learn about God (accept or otherwise is a different

issue) you need to spend time and energy. You can select a Guru who

can help you. I do not see from your postings you have this

expectation, but the one below.

 

But if your goal is to dispute existence of God, there could be

anohter forum that must be working on such attempts.

 

By the way you can come out with your real name.

 

Venu Komanduri

 

 

PRIOR POSTING

 

Hi Sarphod Tabalchi,

1. Where is God I have never seen Him?

It seems you never tried to see God. Seeing God is not possible by

our physical eye. Those who have an insight of God only can see God.

If you try sincerely seeing God is would not be a problem. There are

many ways prescribed in our scriptures. First, Have faith in it.

Then after you never deny God.

2. Who has seen Him?

I see Him always and communicate with Him. Not only with God, I talk

to birds and animals. I can understand them and they understand me.

3. How is He?

He is always Happy. He never deny anything. He never denied my

existence. He wants everyone happy.

4. If I dont know how do I accept?

Dont reejct anything. Accept everything as it is. Never expect

anything in your way accept everything as it is. Keep God in your

mind if you dont know God. Chant Oh God Oh God Oh my God whenever

you want deny God.

5. God is a term coined by elders to put moral shackles over us so

that we may indulge in goodness.

If you know this much of God you should not deny God.

6. There has to be some basis for his existence? What are the logics

which point towards the existence of God? From where to pick the

thread?

First you ask your Parents who are patient to teach you the basic

concept of God existence. Once you have prerequesites to learn God

God comes to you automatically. Be Patient. Can you ever see the

electricity passing through a wire. A bulb is shining, Have you ever

enquired about the electricity which illumines the bulb? Think about

TV., Fridge, Air Conditioner etc., etc. whcih can not function

without electricity. Even you can not ask these questions without

that power unseen in you. My dear beleive in God is far easier than

denying God.

Lovingly, Krishna (Shobha) Das

 

------------------------

Wonderful testing of sadhaks by Tabalchi ji

We all must thank him for the excellent questions and for giving an

opportunity to better our understanding in the spiritual domain.

 

All questions have very easy answers. Excellent expression by all

sadhaks...in answering these.

 

But it is very difficult to satisfy the questioner on the answers.

since these very questions cloud everything....and become obstacles

to understanding the truth

since it is about knowing the questioner first............knowing or

seeing God comes much later.....

 

It has happened to perhaps all of us in the beginning and we may

have gone through this period.

But if we are able to contemplate on the questions with some

guidance, question begin to dissolve/disappear........and the

answers start looking meaningful........

 

So, Tabalchi ji and the begum sahiba could start with contemplating

exercise on the questions first

for example:

 

Q1 Where is God? ----contemplate on......where it should be? what

could be the place where it could be,

why it can not be hear with us?

Q2 Does God exist? ---- Contemplate on.....Who am I? ask yourself

repeatedly who am I?

Q3 Who has seen him is irrelevant? My seeing is important so

contemplate on questions - Why I don't see the God? Can I see it?

What could it look like? What should it be?

Q4 If I don't know how do I accept? Contemplate on What I don't

know? Do I know all? How can I know more?

Q5 Any other word other than God could be used for it. Contemplate

on: Is goodness gives happiness? Are moral values important? Why

we need to fear the word God to be good?

Q6 Contemplate on questions: What is basis of its existence? What

is the basis of our existence? What God must exist? Why prophets

have to come to this world? Who are these prophets?

 

See what comes as answers. It is a good learning

exercise......answers are within and we must practice to start

listening.....everyone has to do this for himself..............best

wishes......Thank you....

Sushil Jain

 

----------------------------

Dear Sarphod:

 

I have similar questions that you have.

 

Following is the status of those questions (mind you not answers):

 

1. Just beacuse I can not see GOD, that does not mean that there is

nothing like GOD which exists, since there are so many things that

exist and yet I can not see (ex: Air, Gases and so many unknowns to

mankind yet)

 

2. Same way as I have the question on the existence of GOD, I also

have the question on my question itself, i.e. I can not prove that

there is no GOD either.

 

3. Say suppose some one suddenly shows me the GOD, what are my tests

and verifications to accept him/her/it as GOD. Do I have all those

tools, a big NO (I am not sure about you)

 

4. Even if I have all those tools to test the existence of GOD and

all the tests are proved positive, then is it going to help me. That

means, do I have the right objective to find out this very unusual

thing called GOD? What is that single biggest thing that is

bothering me about finding out this GOD? Does it have the

seriousness to find out the GOD? If it does all the above questions

should be answerd positively. Or else, I am not sincere in my quest.

 

5. I might not have all these tools right now, yet I have the quest

to know about the existence of GOD, then I do not jump in to quick

conclusions like " There is no GOD, this forum is not DIVINE, etc., "

because that conclusion neither helps me nor taps in to the right

sources of knowledge. I will be just fooling myself saying " I asked

a question which this forum is not able to answer "

 

Just for the record, I remember in the whole known history of

mankind, only one person (Sri Ramakrishna Paramahansa) has admitted

to have seen GOD and was ready to show GOD to the one who was

earnestly with deepest intellectual anxiety and sincerity (Swami

Vivekananda).

 

The one who has shown and the one who was shown the GOD did not have

questions. The SOURCE and the SINK are in the perfect state of mind,

one to give and the other to receive. Am I in the equanimity levels

of Swami Vivekananda? I don't think I am and let me know if you are.

 

If you think you are, just stay there with sincere hope, A

RAMAKRISHNA will happen to you and your intellectual quest might be

fulfilled.

 

If not I need to get there before I start looking for GOD. Till such

time, GOD is tentative truth for me.

 

With a hope it might help you,

Sincerely,

Krishna (devangam krishnamurthy)

 

Hare Krishna

 

Sarphod, you have praised me by saying " I am very good " . FYI! I was

not entertaining you but I was questioning YOUR very existence. You

don't have any doubt in your existence still you cannot prove it.

Why so?? Have you thought over it?? If you can prove it (with your

logic/rationale) then why don't you do it?

 

Mikeji called you brilliant (I wonder why) but he has also called

you inflexible. But I think you have not noted that. He, Vyasji,

Pratapji and others have also given many points. You should think

over it, compare it with your logic and then prove it wrong. But for

this one need guts, because you will have to keep aside your

prejudices to think over others' points. Even if you are not able to

prove us wrong it does not mean that we can make you accept God, we

can only give logics/rationale.

 

No one can force anyone to accept God, especially those who do not

respect their father. If you cannot respect your father than how can

you accept and respect the biggest father (Param-Pita

Parmeshwar).Your father has deserted you and your wife also seems to

be upset with your adamant attitude, but you still don't have any

shame in admitting it. Rather than introspecting over your attitude

you are defending it.

 

Pratapji has not passed any judgment; it is you who is passing

judgments. Mike is best, Varun is very good, Vyas NB is making me

think. If these are not judgements then what is it? Pratapji has

correctly pointed out that you are not reading posts with an open

mind.

 

You have posted these questions only because your wife has directed

you to this group. This is the biggest problem because you are not

interested in knowing or learning anything, you are only asking

these questions just for the sake of it, just for a mere formality.

 

Mrs. Sarphod, please don't insist your husband to post questions. He

is only wasting our time and also don't reveal him anything about

Gita, because if you do so you will unnecessarily incur sin (Gita

18.67)

 

You cannot see God or feel His presence but you definitely feel your

existence as " I AM " , right? Then why can't you prove it with your

logic. I have asked 3 questions w.r.t. your existence but did not

get any reply.

 

Hare Krishna

Varun P. Paprunia

---------------------

 

Jai Hanuman

 

Mr Sarphod ! So you do not think or talk or desire regarding "

flower of sky " - because it does not exist. You yourself said that.

You can think/desire/talk about only that thing which exists.

 

Now this is the biggest proof. You thought about God. You talked

about God. You desired to know about God. You raised questions in

this forum about God. How can you do that- if God does not exist?

 

If you can do that then why did you not talk about " flower of sky " ?

As a law you can desire about only that thing which exists.

 

Answer now! To the point only. ONLY to the point.

 

You said yourself that you would believe in your parents even if

they were dead immediately after your birth, because there is a

basis. The presence of yourself itself is an indicator of their

existence. True. Now go backwards. Presence of your parents means

your grand parents were there. Go backwards and keep going. In the

end you will find one male and one female. Who were their parents?

 

God is " Param Pita " - our eternal father.

 

Clear?

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

 

 

 

----------------------

Hari Om

 

You wanted as to what is sample of God. Answer as given by Varunji

is correct. You , yourself, are " sample " of God ! Because like God,

you are also permanent and faultless. Everybody " experiences " that -

I EXIST. ( You talked about experiencing- I am talking about

experience only) . Do you have any doubt Mr Sarphod that you are not

existing ? You never have any doubt on this. You never conduct any

test to determine whether you exist or not. You never

experience/feel that - I DID NOT EXIST. About past you may say

that " I don't know " , but you can't say " I didn't exist " ! How can

you say so?

 

Why can't you say? Because you have never perceived your " self " to

be non existing. Non existence of your " self " has never come into

your experience. Even in respect of the daily occuring of deep

sleep, your experience never suggests that at that time you were non

existent. But at the same time you experience directly the

absence of ego, intellect, mind and body etc., in the deep sleep.

 

So you exist.

So He exists.

 

Now you are constantly experiencing changes/temporariness in your

body. Who can experience that? Only that element (Self) which is

permanent and changeless and who is looking separately can

experience so..

 

So you are permanent. You are witness. You are changeless. You are

not body. You exist both with or without body. You exist.

 

Similarly God is also permanent. God is also witness. God is also

changeless. God exists both with or without body. God exists.

 

So you exist. At present you are existing Mr Sarphod Now in your

body. In which part of the body you are existing Mr Sarphod? In

which part of the body you are not existing Mr Sarphod? In fact you

are existing everywhere in the body.

 

God exists everywhere in the universe as you exist everywhere in

the body.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

------------------------------

By summery of GITA: " Tat Twam Asi " or 'That You Are'

This logic is explained by Many in different way, as Jesus : " Keep

your self as pure as a Temple, so that GOD can reside in you "

As the world today is more scientific, we require proof by our

Senses.

No machine can prove Logic.

By psychologist EEG machine shows that Yog has a point when we gain

energy from vast outer energy when we Join our inner energy during a

meditative state.

Todays scientific terms were not expressed before. So we can say

positive Energy in us and arround is GOD.

This GOD creates and increases, but the negative energy will grow

only to destroy and eliminate named 'devil' !

The different State of Mind or Self is depicted in the Epics of

Ramayana and Mahabharata by the characters playing in the theatre of

this World.

The Conditions of Heaven and Hell are also due to this state of self.

 

'Tat Twam Asi' in definition of GOD as 'Bramah-Vishnu-Maheshwar' is

also what we see in us.

Psychological mind as Male-Female has in us as a Child, Learning and

Creating with help of 'Sarswati-Bramah'. Then as we are in our

Youth, we Earn and Run our life with the help of 'Laxmi-Vishnu'. At

the end of life our Old age, Eliminate and Destroy many beliefs with

the help of 'Shakti-Shiv'. Thus we prepare our self for the next

birth. The Energy, called 'spirit' by many, is indistructible and

change form. We can ralise it and can even see as Vivekananda(non

believer of statue) was shown by Guru Ramakrishna(ardent idol

worshiper). The idol is the Mirror to see our self !

--

Regards

Swapan PURKAYASTHA

 

 

 

--------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

 

Dear Sarphod:

 

I adore your persistence to what you think is right - that is a good

quality to seek truth. At the same time, I am a bit disappointed in

its lopsidedness! It is not clear what you want, frankly.

 

I have two questions for you: Are you afraid of " God " ? Do you urge

for " God " ?

 

If " YES " to any of these questions, you have a problem. You can't

stick to your current logical conviction. It is obvious that your

current logical conviction irrespective of its self-proclaimed

excellence is JUST NOT DOING ITS JOB :(. Your logical provess can

claim accolades ONLY IF it removes your fears and quench your

desires.

If not removal, at least a nominal reduction in their intensity is

warranted ... if your intellect is working straight.

 

If " NO " to any of these questions, I see a bigger problem. Why are

you confusing yourself with these questions. That " NO " becomes

meaningless just because you are incapable of letting the very

questions go! The very reason you are raising these questions prove

that you are infested either by fear or by desire or by both

regarding " God " . THAT IS EXCELLENT!

 

Then, it is " YOUR " primary responsibility to address the same. As I

mentioned earlier, your current intellect is incapable of helping you

out. Then, you have to make a shift in your thinking to inspect the

ignorance harbored within. Pardon me for calling it ignorance. But,

the fact is ... it is. Inherent fears and desires can never let an

individual happy. They create the turbulence within in terms of

themselves. The existence of miseries is proof enough that we are not

applying our intellect in the right direction. After all, it is

common sense that we do everything ONLY FOR ONE REASON - to be

happy. I am sure you agree with it.

 

The question is are you happy with these questions as such or are you

really interested in a possible solution. If you are happy with these

questions, be happy. You can never get the solution though! If you

really need a solution, QUESTION the very questions. That is the only

way out left for you to be happy. Do you have any other choice? If

you have, please pursue. Being happy is the bottom line of all

actions ... being happy ... being happy but nothing else.

 

Nobody can instruct you what God Is! You have to figure it out

yourself.

 

I don't know who misled you that this or anything specific " is a

devine forum " as if anything else is not! If you seek divinity,

everything is devine. If not, some may claim " divinity " as if the

rest is not. Please do not get trapped into such notions ... if you

really want to seek clarity regarding your question. Question your

questions ... TRUTHFULLY. You will see the end of the tunnel.

 

Again, PLEASE DO NOT EXPECT OR INSIST FOR EXPLICIT INSTRUCTIONS

REGARDING GOD. YOU WILL NOT GET ANY ANSWER ... UNLESSS ... YOU SEE IT

WITHIN YOURSELF! The only suggestion I can make is ... look for IT

within. Because, looking out all these years has seemingly remained

futile! There is no point in digging into others' psyche when mine is

not receptive enough. If I insist to continue, I can guarantee myself

of more confusion to come!! Because ... GOD cannot be held within any

" psyche " as such.

 

Anyway, just few suggestions to think about ... think about it if you

want ... ONLY IF YOU WANT.

 

All The Best.

 

Respects.

 

Naga Narayana

 

 

 

 

PRIOR POSTING

Dear " Sadhaks " (?)

 

Why my simple questions are not getting answered. Shashikalajee

asked me some questions, instead of replying to me. I , upon the

advice of my Begum Saahiba humbly replied to her. Now instead of

responding to me, she has given a conversation between a son and his

mother. My Begum is insisting to me that I should again and again

read that. OK I will do that. But let me answer her another

question. I have not desired to smell " flower of sky " , because it

does not exist. Sometimes I feel that both my Begum Sahibaa and you

Sadhaks have lost mind. What a funny question Shashikalajee has

asked. How can I desire or talk or know about a thing which doesn " t

exist? This is my basic fundamental and solid argument. Vyas N B is

giving indicators which require me to think. I am thinking. But the

best among you is Mike Keenor. He told me to remain solid. He

adviced me to remain tenacious, merciless and hang on. I am hanging

on. But then why Vineet Sarvottam told me lies? Varun Paprunia gave

him a fitting reply. Varun - you are very good. This Pratap Bhatt

is rebuking me. Why? What is my fault. On one hand you are simply

giving me round round answers. On other hand you are passing

judgement. Is this a conduct of a sadhak. Please reply to me. Or

say - none of you have capacity to answer my simple questions. My

Begum Sahibaa has already started crying. Have mercy on her at

least. But Mike praised me. He called me " brilliant " .

 

Waiting for answers.

 

Sarphod Tabalchi

---------------------------

We all struggle with these questions. The answers I found logical is

this: There is something beyond mind and matter. Some will call that

something Omnipotent, Omniscient, Omnipresent. Others will call it

random nothing. Another question one hears is why do I want to know

That Something. To Know, or to Control it? Here in lies the paradox

and answer: If it is to know only: He is right there with you,

within you: The Life, Love Peace. If it is to control so that we

control our surrounding: That is the struggle of Ego. Arjuna had to

see the Universal form to get over the final hurdle.

Jay Shree Krishna.

 

Hemendra Parikh

-------------------------------

Dear devotees of Lord Krishna,

The discussion is interesting. I learned the gita much better after

seeing the life experience of a realized lady, who had darshan of

Lord Krishna ( first darshan of Lords feet after chanting a sloka

from 10 th chapter of Gita for 30,000 times continuously for 30

days ). Her conversations with the Lord have been recorded in

Tamil, and can be shared with the group if interested.

With kind regards,

Sincerely,

P.Vivekanandan

-------------------------------

 

Try Brahmacharya ( the vow of celibacy in thought, word and deed, by

which one attains Self-realisation or reaches Brahman) and you will

see for yourself the value.

 

The Srutis declare: " Naayam Atma balaheenena labhyah - This Atman is

not attainable by a weak man. " In the Gita you will

find: " Yadichhanto brahmacharyam charanti - That desiring which

Brahmacharya is performed " (Chap. VIII-11). " Trividham narakasyedam

dvaram nasanamatmanah; kamah krodhastatha lobhastasmad etat trayam

tyajet - O Arjuna! Triple is the gate of the hell, destructive of

the Self; lust, wrath and greed: therefore let man renounce these

three " (Chap. XVI-21). " Jahi satrum mahabaho kamarupam durasadam -

Kill this powerful enemy, passion, by the observance of

Brahmacharya " (Chap. III-43).

 

If we are determined to attain the goal of life by leading a pure

life, we must keep this mind busily engaged in Divine thoughts,

concentration, meditation, study and service of humanity.

 

It is difficult to eradicate lust. But you need not despair even a

bit. Have faith in God, in His Name and in His grace. Lust cannot be

completely rooted out of the mind except by the grace of the Lord.

You are bound to succeed if you have faith in Him. The Divine Grace

is needed. God helps those who help themselves.

 

Until man continues to cling to worldliness, Paramatma cannot be

grasped by him.

 

You can read more about this in the " Easy Steps to Yoga " by Sri

Swami Sivananda.

chirag almoula

 

--------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

 

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

Tabalchiji, with all the respect for you and questions, I may point

out that no one can make anyone see anything let alone God if that

person doesn't want to see. It seems like you may be insistent upon

seeing God in the way you want to see.

Please forgive me if I am wrong, but as a friend I am saying. It

seems like you may not have read the postings with open mind, with

the desire to know the truth. Open mind doesn't mean accepting, it

means you must give a fair reading/hearing and then asking pertinent

questions or raise doubts based on what is read. Here your responses

indicate you have decided that God cannot exist for you if you

cannot see or have some logic to prove God's existence. One has to

see that " seeing God " means deep understanding of intuitive nature

in this context where mind being limited cannot comprehend. It has

to be prepared to be open. Our conditioned mind is incapable of

grasping truth.

Some of us provided solid logic, but it still fell short to make you

see the pointers.

I said one cannot say " I don't see God " without knowing what God he

is looking that he cannot find. One has to know what one wants to

see, right? One can say " I don't know God, tell me what/where I

should look, and how to recognize " . It is different than show me

God, right?

Once again, God is the Conscious/Intelligent Existence as reflected

in our experience of " I am " right now as you read these words. In

first posting, dialogue was used to illustrate it as a solid proof

one cannot deny.

There are ways to experience God for which senses-mind-intellect is

not capable like they are for knowing objects. Nevertheless, there

is proof of God more reliable than that.

But this point didn't make any impression.

I request you with humility to re-read responses again and see what

happens!

Namaskar..............Pratap Bhatt

-------------------------------

Hare Krishna

 

Okay Mr. Sarphod,

 

Let's put God's existence out of equation for a moment and only

discuss about sample/logics/rationales w.r.t. YOUR existence.

 

I AM

 

Well, you don't have any doubt in your existence, right? Your body

has changed and it is rapidly changing every second. But Mr.

Sarphod, is you also changing with the body? You are certainly not

changing with it because if you were changing then who would have

known the change in body? You are that changeless element who knows

the change in body. Isn't it? Childhood, youth, old age are the

changing phases of the body but you are that changeless element who

is witness to all these changes. It is a law that only a changeless

element can perceive the ever-changing element. My question - What

is the basis of your never-changing existence? If you consider

body's existence as your existence then you are defying all logic,

because body is changing every second!!!

 

I and MINE

 

It is a law that whatever is mine, it is never I. For example you

consider your house, car, wife, children etc. as mine but you never

consider them as I. But in the case of body you say 'my hands, my

legs, my stomach, my ears, my eyes, my throat etc.' and

simultaneously you also consider it as 'I' e.g. I am not feeling

well. You establish two transversal relationships with the body,

that of 'I' and 'MINE'. Whichever thing is mine it is always apart

(separate) from you, and that thing which is separate from you, how

can it be I? This body is also apart from you but still you call it

as I. Is this logical?

 

Mr. Sarphod, now I wish to see you. Can you show me yourself???

Ohh... please don't show me that body which you claim it as mine. I

want to see that Mr. Sarphod who claims the body as mine. In other

words, I want to see that element which you refer to as I?

 

Before that I am eager to know whether you have ever seen yourself.

According to you anything that exists is perceptible. So Mr.

Sarphod, with which instrument have you seen yourself?

 

If you have not seen yourself then, well ..... do you exist ?????

 

And at last one more question- Whose name is Sarphod - body or

yourself?

 

Mr. Sarphod, with your logics/samples/rationales etc., first prove

 

1. Your existence.

2. The basis of your existence.

3. The instrument with which you have seen/felt your existence.

 

Then we will also discuss about God's existence....

 

As Sarphodji is contemplating over his existence, in the mean time,

those sadhaks whose faith in God has dwindled with his questions,

they are requested to read this Sadhaka posting

sadhaka/message/2108

 

Hare Krishna

Varun P. Paprunia

-------------------------------

 

Jai Hanuman

 

(Shrimad Bhagvad Geeta- Marathi Edition- By Saint Gyaaneshwarji-

Chapter 13- Kalyaan- By Narainduttji Gaur )

 

Jeeva ( J) (We all- as referred in BG 15:7) :

 

Mom pls tell me , when I was born?

 

Maya , Mother Nature, Prakrati, Illusion (As referred in BG 7: 13/14)

( M ) :

 

( Irritated) What non sense! Is it some thing to be told? (By a Mom

to Son?)

 

J: If mother doesn't tell, who will?

 

M: How to tell you? I came only after you !

 

J: Typical Mom ! Means- I came first and then you? Surprising? Isn't

it?

 

M: You won't understand. Be silent and sleep!

 

J: Come On ! First me ..! And then You ...!! (How can it be?) Pls

tell me the story ! Please !!

 

M: I told you. You won't understand! Many big people even could not.

 

J: Ok ! Then my Father can let me understand. Take me to Him, please.

 

M: ( Curtly) Stop this song of Father, Father. Your Father is Father

only for the name sake.In fact, I have to do every thing.

 

J: Does He not do anything?

 

M: What can He do? He is old, ancient, poor fellow (eternal) ! Then

totally actionless! Absolutely non-doer! Neither hands, nor legs,

nor eyes, nor ears! Nothing in fact! Look Kid ! Whatever colour ,

form etc of the world which you are seeing is my miracle, my form,

my competence, my work ! Ok? Your Father has neither any form, nor

any beauty. What beauty He can impart to the world?

 

J: But all say that He is the real Creator. See Mom! Whatever is my

Father, He is my Father! Ok? His insult...??

 

M: Insult! What insult? Whose insult? One who does not have any

caste or creed, any family or varna, any city or village- what can

be His respect or disrespect?

 

J: How bad He will feel, if He listens to what you are saying?

 

M: Even if He gets annoyed, what can He do? One who neither moves,

nor walks, nor travels, nor laughs, nor cries, nor speaks, neither

any juice, nor any taste, nor any play !!! This entire

exhibition/show I run, Dear Son !!

 

J But out there on Gate (of the circus) His name is written, O Mom !!

 

M: Ultimately you will take side of your Father only. Afterall you

are His son!

 

J: O Mom of the Universe! Why did not you put name of yours on the

front gate of this Great Circus? ( The world)

 

M: How to put my name. This is the real trgedy. You won't

understand, Son. I, the creator and controller of uncountable

universes can not do any thing by my name!! (Ramcharitmanas- 5/21/4)

 

J: Don't be sad and sorry Mom! What is the matter?

 

M: It is very secret, Son! If by seeing my banner outside the gate,

if somebody wants to meet with me, he will be disappointed. Son!

Please understand my pain. One is lazy ( does nothing), has no

organs, is actionless- those who want to search such (an element)

person , they search Him merely by His name! (Ramcharitmanas-

1/26/2). But to me, even when I am controlling entire sentient and

insentient world, if some body wants to search, CANNOT find! Cannot

search.

 

J: Why not Mom?

 

M: (With tears in her eyes) Because, in reality, I don't exist. I am

false. I am asat. I am non existent. My " not being " is my " being " .

Whatever is not- I am that. I am no-thing.

 

J: And whatever is there, that is who? Who is that?

 

M: He is your Father, Son!

 

J: (In mind, talking with himself only, Son thinks/says - Hats off

to you Mom! When you don't exist, then this is the scene of the

world that even Lord Shiva , Brahma are afraid of you -

Ramcharitmanas 7/71/8- had you existed " actually " Mom then.....)

 

O my No-thing Mom! When you don't even exist , then on whose power

you run this circus called the world?

 

M: What to tell you, Son? I can tell you only this much that, of

Whose a mere flicker of eyebrow, I do rule the uncountable

universes, I can't dare/ don't have courage to face Him. I do run

this circus only on His strength.

 

J : O My Unconquerable Mom! My hundreds of Pranaams to you. Bless

me , O Mom! So that I may get my Father!!

 

While bowing and doing Pranaams to his mother, Jeeva became

tranquilised and then in the background divine music played-

 

" MAAMEVA YA PRAPADYANTE, MAYAMETAM TARANTI YE "

 

(BG 7:14)

 

He was He only!

 

Namaste Jee.

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

-------------------------------

-Shri Hari-

 

My dear Sarphodji,

 

A few points to consider, I have said I have been touched by the

Divine,(just one way of putting it), such Grace is life changing, I

could be lying or be mad,(I tell the truth), but I know just by

reading the things fellow Sadhaks have written that I AM NOT ALONE.

Some people come to Bhagwan with ease and joy others take the path of

fire so to speak, (the hard miles).

 

In the west there is an expression,'The Dark Night of The Soul', and

yes! If it is known in the west it is most absolutely known in the

Indian Traditions.(I think Arjuna's predicament reflects that),I will

stay using the terminology to which I am most familiar.

You say you are deserted, you are not deserted, the Brethren have not

deserted you, and in the Darkest Moment of the Soul, there is a light

shining, that light comes from 'That', which will wash away you

tears, 'That' which will break your heart so that you can be

mended. Your arguments are not solid dear Brother, not to those that

have felt the embrace of The Beloved. Your inflexibility, combined

with your determined search, may well introduce you to 'The Dark

Night...', the very ONE you rebuked the most, will be the one that

rescues you. I speak from experience not from books.

 

With Respect and Divine Love,

 

Mike Keenor

 

 

 

 

 

PRIOR POSTING

Hari Om

 

If sadhaks can concentrate on giving short pointers / rationale

which establishes the existence of Supreme Power it will help all

in being definitive, have reference material and it will also

strengthen faith. Ego, Intellect and Mind don't let you agree that

easily. And who knows who may need in the coming turbulent era of

Kaliyug, that is lacking in faith and belief. Let us get united.

 

From discourses of Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj (Taat Shree), whom I

have solely relied on for a number of years -

 

Every human being wants the following:

 

1) To " live for ever " . This is desire for SAT (existence). Fear of

death is the indicator of that desire.

2) To know every thing. No one wants to be unknowlegeable. This is

desire for CHIT (Knowledge).

3) To be happy. No one wants to be unhappy. This is desire for

ANANDA.

 

Any doubt Mr Sarphod? Now if there is a desire then the element to

fulfill that desire must also be there. There must be some one /

some element which enables you to " live for ever " , to be all knowing

and to be ever blissful. Had such an element not existed, we would

not have had the desire for the same.

 

Paramatma is SAT-CHIT-ANANDA.(Sachchidananda)

 

Raam! Raam!! Raam!!!

 

To be continued.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

------------------------------

 

Dear Tabalchi ji,

 

According to J. Krishnamurti " modern so called educated " people want

a little bit of intellectual amusement and therefore they indulge in

meaningless discussions about God and such matters. God cannot be

discussed in this manner, because That Absolute Truth (give

It/Her/Him any name) is beyond description.

Your all the six questions are like the enquiries of a " full

stomach " tourist without an iota of appetite going through the menu,

or reading it aloud with his co-friends. If you are really thirsty

you will not indulge in such childish questions about water, but

will try your best to drink it.

 

I suggest you read Uncommon Wisdom and other books by Dr Capra (a

physic scientist) who has quoted from our Sanskrit literature about

God, or read A Brief History of Time by Hawking Stephens (well known

expert on dark hole and universe) to know the concept of time and

space. At least do go through some writings by Nobel laureate Dr

Edington (a scientist). Only then, you can be a little serious about

exploring the great Absolute Truth. Become " jyan-vijyan-triptah " and

only then we can walk together on this spiritual quest.

 

Regards,

Suresh C. Sharma

------------------------

 

Sir,

You are asking the oldest question ever being asked. See around

you, a sperm has made you upto approximately 6 feet. Who designed

this project and process. Your father and mother only are tools.

Inquire within and get the answer.

 

surender syal

--------------------------------

 

Mitro,

Why has this God become famous as " HE " why not " she " or " IT "

or " Nothing " ? Today's generation will not believe in gibberish

bakwaas . The paradox is every religion, every saint says that God

is ONE. But even within Hindus philosophy we see thousands of gods

(many names and forms). If God is One then why all the differences

and the fights? How come? Ramchander Homma

 

------------------------------

I agree with Luca Brasi that I should be fairly replied. I have

asked a lot of questions. I want proof/logic and I want to know How

is that Supreme. I want sample. I want rationale. My Begum Saahibaa

also told me that I am head breaker like your Shashikaljee told me.

But I never agreed with her so far. I never admitted this version.

I am not head or skull breaker. My name suggests that I am mind

fixer. Any way how the name matters? I am what I am. I accept my

parents because even if I dont remember my birth, they remember

that. They know that I am their child. I can see them. I can feel

them. I can experience them. I can recognise them. That is why they

are my parents. Where is God? How can I accept God on the grounds

that since I did not know my parents at the time of birth and I

accepted hence I should accept God also. Children are children. They

dont understand. But I am adult. I understand. My Begum Sahibaa

could not satisfy me and hence she asked me to get in touch with you

She said you will satisfy me.I checked with her that I am not

satisfied even after, because I have MOST SOLID arguments, then

what? Even my father deserted me because he could not satisfy me.

She said such situation will not arise. If I cant see , I cant

accept. Prove to me how one can accept without seeing or feeling or

experiencing or logic or rationale or basis. At least I should feel

or experience. Even if my parents were dead at the time of birth,

still I would accept that because how can I come without them on

this earth. What is your answer? Pratap or Vineet or Mike or

Shashikala. My Begum Sahibaa said few things regarding observations

of Vineet also. Please reply- Sadhaks of this self

proclaimed " Divine " site. Dont go by my name. Even my Begum

Saahibaa complains regarding my name. What can I do regarding my

name Jee?

 

Sarphod Tabalchi

 

 

PRIOR POSTING

Hare Krishna

 

Sarphodji,

 

Not only can Parmatma be an individual he can also be a fish

(Matsya-avatar), a tortoise (Kachchap-avatar), a pig (varaha-avatar),

a half lion-half man (Narsimha-avatar) and what not!!!

According to Gita, not only can a devotee see God but also know Him

and also enter into Him.

 

Arjuna said

O universal form, O thousand-armed Lord, I wish to see You in Your

four-armed form, with diadem on your head with club, wheel, conch and

lotus flower in Your hands. I long to see You in that form. (11.46)

 

Sanjaya said

The Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krishna, having spoken thus to

Arjuna, displayed His real four-armed form and at last showed His

two-armed form, thus encouraging the fearful Arjuna. (11.50)

 

Lord Krishna said:

My dear Arjuna, this form of Mine you are now seeing is very

difficult

to behold. Even the demigods are ever seeking the opportunity to see

this form, which is so dear.

Neither by the study of Vedas, nor by penance, nor by charity, nor

even by rituals can I be seen in this form (with four-arms), as You

have seen Me.

O valiant Arjuna, through single-divided devotion, however, I can be

seen in this form (with four-arms), known in essence and even entered

into.

My dear Arjuna, he who performs all his duties for Me, depends on Me,

is devoted to Me, has no attachment, and is free from malice towards

all beings, reaches Me. (11.52-55)

 

Please give special attention to the last 2 verses. This will answer

your question of knowing and seeing God.

 

Yes, I have also read the same in Swamiji's book which your wife has

stated. I consider it to be true because I believe in Swamiji's

words.

 

Hare Krishna

Varun P. Paprunia

------------------------------

 

Hari Om

 

No! Sarphodji. Those who want to learn should read carefully and

should learn also to be patient. All sadhaks upto now have given

excellent observations. I have also given you logics/pointers and

will

continue to give you till you get satisfied. I agree with Luca that

there must be logics/rationale existing. It is another matter, as Mr

Vineet stated, that they are pointless once you proceed ahead. But

still questions are questions and your insistence , though, odd but

still should be respected. Your " Begum Sahibaa " appears to have

directed herself to peace. I wish you understood the hidden affection

in the in the message of Mike Keenor to you. Here are more

logics/pointers to you:

 

3. In life, we always find a higher person than ourselves. In every

field a higher person than one is existing. See around you, you will

find this statement to be true. Even the President of USA can not say

" I am the Highest " . Always a better /higher person than you is

existing. Now where does this " highness " end. If there is sense of

highness , then there must be an element which is " highest " . God is

that element. God is the HIGHEST.

 

4. You always need some " shelter " to survive. In the childhood you

need shelter of parents, teacher, etc. Then of education, ability,

wife, money, home, employers, what not. In old age, you need wife,

children, stick, doctor, medicines, health etc Sujects change but not

the need for shelter.. If there is consistent need for shelter , then

there must be an element existing of whose shelter is the ultimate

shelter. Is not it Mr Sarphod. ( You should argue on such in

principle

points. Check up with you Begum Sahibaa.) ? If you are thirsty ,

there

must be water existing on the planet. Now when you need always some

shelter or other, then there must be an element which can be

described

as " Highest Shelter available " ! God is " PARAM ASHRAYA DATA " Giver

of that shelter. If you take shelter of God, no other shelter will be

necessary,

 

5. We always want to be perfect. There is no doubt on that. But there

is also no doubt regarding the fact that we err. In fact " to err is

human " -this saying is prevalent on this planet from time immemorial.

Now if there is a desire to become perfect then there must exist an

element which is most perfect. Did you ever hear that there was a

difference of a fraction of a second even in timings of Sun rise and

Sun set? Is not everything moving to the perfection? Who can be more

perfect except God. God is the MOST PERFECT.

 

To be continued till you say " I am satisfied "

 

As regards your observation that " Nature " also creates/controls-

answer is that whether you believe that nature has " knowledge " ? If

yes, then that nature is our God. In our religion ( I don't know your

religion) SHAKTI is God also. But if according to you , the INERT

NATURE has no knowledge, then you have to accept God. Can inert

nature

take care of so many souls, operate Law of Karma, provide food to so

many creatures? If Yes- I don't mind calling that Nature to be God.

After all it is a matter only of " terminology " . If no then you must

accept that IF THERE IS DESIRE / NEED IN YOU TO BE PERFECT OR TO TAKE

SHELTER OR TO SEEK HIGHNESS then there exists an element to fulfil

that desire. That element is called " GOD/ PARAMATMA " . Logical ?

Does

it appeal to your logic Mr Sarphod? Check up with your Begum Sahibaa

and come back. Your arguments shall exhaust, not our arguments- be

sure on this. After all you are on GT Site !

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

-------------------------------

 

Dear Sarphod:

 

Wonderful! I like your guts to put this question across!! I was

startled to start with and even alarmed as I contemplated " thanks

for triggering the turbulence from which proceeds the peace as

always. "

 

Son goes to father and asks, " Father, what is God? " Father

answered, " Whatever drives your life, whatever sustains your life

and whatever absorbs your life is verily God my child. Think about

It! " The father was wise enough not to instruct what God is. The son

promptly contemplates in what his father said and came back, " Father,

fear drives all the lives. Fear sustains all the lives. Fear absorbs

all the life. Therefore, fear should be the god. " Father

remarks, " Good job! Keep thinking. " The son not knowing whether his

revelation was conclusive or not continues to contemplate. Son comes

back to father and declares, " Father, desire drives all the lives,

desire sustains all the lives and desire absorbs all the lives.

Therefore, the desire should be the god. " Father remarks again, Good

job! Keep thinking. " The son does not feel the conclusive

appreciation regarding the god - is it fear or desire? He continues

to contemplate and realizes that, the happiness drives all the

lives. Happiness sustains all the lives. And, happiness absorbs all

the lives. Therefore happiness should be the god.

 

Now he does not go back to his father as he has already felt the

wisdom behind his father's remarks. God is not something that can be

taught to, or preached to or transferred to anybody. It is the

notion within ... it is the imagination within ... it is the

deliberation within ... it is the understanding within ... it is the

appreciation within ... IT IS THE PRESENCE WITHIN in its core. The

son, accepting the challenge from his father to use the body, senses

and mind blessed to him, continues to contemplate.

 

He has seen the driving force, sustenance strength and absorption

power in the fear, in the desire as well as in the happiness. He

sees that the three divinities of creation, sustenance,and

absorption transcend the boundaries of his existential fears,

desires and happiness altogether integrating the whole universe of

knowns as well as unknowns - manifested as well as unmanifested -

mitigating the differences that were once prominent amongst the

three phases of life - fear, desire and happiness.

 

Then starts another dilemma - who is the god amongst these three

divinites that seem to determine what life is? Driving Force or

Sustenance Strength or Absorption Power? Again, he approaches his

father, the wisdom established within to contemplate on the dilemma.

 

The driving force comes first to claim the unclaimed post of The

God. On ruthless examination, the driving force starts wondering

aloud that it itself should have been driven by something else. The

new driving force wonders the same and so on. The driving force digs

up an infinite legacy of its own kind beneath lost in the oblivion

of the past. It returns back in frustration not withstanding what

the driving force could really be.

 

The absorption power jumps in next to claim the still unclaimed post

of The God. Again, the wisdom starts the same gruelling scrutiny.

The power under sharp vigilence starts whithering away to wonder if

it absorbs everything there should be something to absorb itself.

The new absorbing power wonders the same way and so on. The

absorption power piles up an infinite heirarchy of its own kind

above lost in the oblivion of the future. It returns back in

frustration not withstanding what the absorption power could ever

be.

 

The empty throne is still awaiting to be filled. The sustenance

strength walks to claim the post in confidence. The valiant wisdom

does its job with no resistance subjecting the life sustenance

power in suspension of its examination. The sustencance strength

which provides strength to all the life around starts wondering what

is the source of its own strength and sustenance. The new source of

the strength resounds the same wonder what could be the source of

strength. The sustenance strength keeps jumping from on fold to

another all around the universe that is within its control to seek

itself folding itself in infinitude lost in the vast presence. It

returns back in frustration not withstanding what the sustenance

strength could ever be.

 

Seeing the crest-fallen champions of life not realizing their own

true nature around, the throne of The God starts fading into

silence. The wisdom starts wondering in itself. Is it not the

driving force as well as the sustenance strength as well as the

absorption power all the time all around? Suddenly, the demarkation

between the three divinities that was once so thick and opaque

starts giving away to reveal the force, strength and power of

creation, sustenance and absorption in itself and hence in every

thing that is perceieved ever.

 

The realized wisdom gets back and declares. Never ever ignore your

fears. Never ever ignore your desires. Never ever ignore your

happiness. Ever be with your fears, desires and happiness as you

are. Then you see the unison amongst your fears, desires and joys

and hence in all your emotions, relations and existence within as

well as around. Then you see all the boundaries separating your

notions dissolve in the very wisdom where you dwell upon. Being what

you are in spite of your apparent variances of life naturally

transcends all the barriers built by your cognition across

everything to reveal THE ONE everywhere and everywhence. Then the

very post of God does not appear to be real anymore which seemed the

most troublesome question to start with.

 

God remains evasive till you drift away from what you are in vain

searching whatever IT could be! Therefore, my dear friend, better

pause in your frenzy search and look around and look within … be

what you are. Then God is everything … not just a notion ... not

just a faith ... not just a doubt ... but, everything ... EVERYTHING

WITH NO EXCEPTION. If you remain what you are, IT is all-inclusive.

If you attempt to search for it, IT becomes all-exclusive. In other

words, IT is EVERYTHING in your presence; and IT is NOTHING in your

perception.

 

Respects.

 

Naga Narayana

--------------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

Let us address one aspect of Tabalchiji's issues with responses of

sadhakas received so far!

To be able to see God, one needs to recognize God upon seeing

anything, right? If one says I don't see God, one is looking for what

one " thinks " God is in whatever one is looking at. For God to be

" that " it will be very very limiting to God, because what we think is

so limited even if it is some grand image of God. That is not

logical, right?

Now when Swamiji says Goenkaji and Poddarji had darshana of God, what

does it mean?

It means the deep understanding of what God is and subsequent

realization that " my God, there is nothing else but only God IS in

the disguise of the Cosmos " that sees through that individual.

The individual's vision has changed entirely, where he/she saw

objects of the world before, now he sees only Divinity in the same

forms. It is our experience that what we believe out there, we tend

to see only that through our being closed minded. Similarly when we

understand God, this " Understanding " opens up the very mind who sees

God everywhere, individual is merely a channel God is using.

Other aspects of issues will see later....

Namaskar............Pratap Bhatt

 

------------------------

-Shree Hari-

 

Sarphodji,

 

Great! You are still questioning brilliant!

I have read the responses from our brethren, great beauty full of

divine love. But I will stick to the hared nosed roll,(look past it

dear friend).

If someone asked me to show her an oak tree, and I gave her an acorn,

what would she say I wonder? Of course the blueprint for the whole

tree is in the acorn, one also one wonders, did the first oak tree

have an acorn or the first acorn have an oak tree?

Question 6 if resolved is the platform upon which all the other

question can be answered it seems to me.

I can only tell you how I came to be touched be The Divine, that was

by my search into paradoxes, like the universe, like the acorn.

I once mentioned a man I met in unusual circumstance. It was about

3am

in a large air traffic control room, very few controllers in the room

at that time. I was waiting to get clearance to work on a console(to

do annual technical checks). There across the room was this

controller, He had his headset on,(with a long lead), he was

performing asanas, (within the restriction), " trying to stay awake? "

I

asked, " no he boomed " , we started to talk. We had 'Much' in common,

we

developed a dialog from then on , it was he who suggested I read

Bhagavad Gita,(I humbly suggest you do also).

He once said to me with his booming humorous voice, " Mike if people

could her us they would think we're 'Lunatics'.

What we had in common at the root, was our hunger for the truth, and

the courage, 'to ride the tiger " .

We were an unlikely pair from a world view, he was a Sri Lankan, me

an

Anglo Celt, especially if one could here us talking, but we were

brothers of the spirit.

There is much I could talk of, but I must bow to the respected

moderator.

 

With Respect and Divine Love,

 

Mike Keenor

-

Mr Sarphod ! So you are a male as well as married ! Very good Jee !

 

It is a good habit to act in accordance with advice your Begum. How

did she leave you alone? Do you have books of Swamiji Ramsukhdasji

Maharaj at your home? Your “Begum†had those books according to

you.

Did you read them? Or your Begum only reads them? By the way did

you ever think about or did you ever have a desire to smell “

flower

of sky†? Why did you not think about flower of sky or desired to

smell it ? Reply. This is a question to you. Also reply if you always

believe only after “seeing†?

 

Let us know as to how you can get satisfied according to you?. What

methodology suits your mind.? How do you generally feel regarding

this world,mind, intellect, body etc etc ? How according to you such

a

big world is operating ? Do you think there are some laws governing

this world? Keep also giving your observations , counter arguments on

EACH AND EVERY response which is given to you. Otherwise how will we

know whether the cure has taken place? Understood? You can consult

your Begum also before replying to my queries. Always tell us what

your Begum told you and what is your own observation. Why don’t you

tell your Begum also to become member and start Satsanga? Will that

not be better? What is her kind name, Jee?

 

Namaste Jee.

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

 

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

Another aspect of issues raised by Tabalchiji can be answered based

on

what sadhakas already have echoed in their responses.

The most important thing is to know that God is not " something " ,

" somewhere " and " some times " . It is at the core of our being, an

intimate experience which is The Knowingness without anything known.

In otherwords, God cannot be known as another limited object,

nevertheless, is known as " knowingness " in us by virtue of just

being.

For example, if someone were to ask you, can you show me Love, Peace,

Compassion, Beauty, Goodness etc " out there " ? You cann't! They are

experiences within us that we attribute to things/situations etc

outside which may have triggered them. Some philosopher rightly said

" From the beginning, not a thing is! " Please, please, see the truth

of

this. We are connected to the world only through Being Conscious of

something or other which we conceptualize as subject

experiencer(mind-body), and objects experienced, both thought as

separate. Such division is not experiential.

Just as these experiences are not seen " out there " , but are truely

happening in our consciousness, God cannot be seen, as separate from

Consciousness.

Sun, for example, is nothing but the experience of light and heat,

conceptualized as " Sun " out there, for practical purpose. This is

also

true for all apparant objects of the world.

God or Consciousness or Atman, are also such conceptual words of the

most intimate Wordless Experience! They are good pointers though!

When people engage in services to help others who are victims of

disasters, diseases, violence, wars, terrorism etc etc who motivates

their actions? Unconditional Love and Goodness of the heart! People

who help to preserve natural environment, forests, animals, etc etc

are also inspired by the same Love and Goodness!

Can we not call Unconditional Love and Goodness of the heart God?

Are those who bring such disasters to " apparant others " also God, if

all is God?

They are also, yes, but unfortunately " they " have not understood yet

that they are!

In God's world, only God exists playing " others " , so who does what to

whom?

Try doing evil acts after understanding deep within that all of us,

nature included, together, not individually, are God! One cannot!

 

Namaskar...........Pratap Bhatt

 

 

-

PRIOR POSITING

Dear Sadhak,

Excellent explanation has been given by sadhak Pratapji....Excellent!

If the parents donot know GOD how can they teach the kids?

Swamiji says if something is lying in darkness we can take a deepak

with us to see it but to see a deepak(lamp) we donot need another

deepak. Same way the objects of this whole worlds can be

seen/experienced through the " SELF " but to know this SELF we donot

need anything from the world( mind/body/intellect etc.) Only SELF

knows it SELF.

1. Where is God I have never seen Him?

He is not HE, He is " I " . When we can see/know who am I we can

see/know who is God.

Indeed, You alone know Yourself by Your own potencies, O origin of

all, Lord of all beings, God of gods, O Supreme Person, Lord of the

universe! Ch10:15

2. Who has seen Him?

All realized people have known HIM.Some claim that they have seen

HIM too.

Swami Vivekananda asked this question to everyone he met-Have you

seen God ? All answers negative except Ramkrishna Paramhansa.He said-

" Yes I have seen God as clearly as I am seeing you right now. "

Listening to this Narendra became his disciple.

3. How is He?

With a single fragment of Myself I pervade and support this entire

universe.Ch10:42

4. If I dont know how do I accept?

Then go ahead follow the path shown to us by Swamiji or any realized

soul, and know Him first, then accept.

5. God is a term coined by elders to put moral shackles over us so

that we may indulge in goodness.

What's wrong with that ? Accept God ,be righteous and be Arjuna or

donot accept Him, be Duryodhana - choice is yours.

6. There has to be some basis for his existence? What are the logics

which point towards the existence of God? From where to pick the

thread?

Start with meditation and Gita. Follow the path shown by Him in Gita-

Karma Yoga, Gyaan Yoga or Bhakti Yoga. Establish yr self in YOGA.....

 

No one can force any one to believe. Kids learn by imitation. Lead

yr own life according to Dharma,and kids will pick it up.Before

giving them tatva Gyaan(absolute knowledge),its better to sit with

them and watch Ramayana, Krishna, Mahabharata and let them learn by

the character of our Sagun Sakaar Bhagwaan(God with Forms). If they

can learn from Rama or Krishna, they will be on right path and will

get their realization at their own speed.

with lots of Love,

a sadhika

Sadhna Karigar

 

--------------------------------

Jai Hanuman

 

Oye What a question Jee!!. As good as the name of the

questioner!! " Sarphod " in Hindi means skull breaker ! " Tablachi "

means he who plays treble. Unique Jee !! Namaste Sarphodji !!

Welcome Jee ! There is music everywhere ! Who kept such a classic

name Jee ? Father? OK, pick the thread from father only.

 

How do I accept if I don't know? Accept just as you accepted some

one to be your father without knowing anything about him. Don't say

please- " that children now a days need more than belief to accept " .

That, I am afraid, is not as classic a statement as is even your

kind name. Fact is that children practice only belief and solid

belief. They are masters of belief - and teachers of entire humanity

on this subject of belief. Poor adults need proof. What kind of

proof was solicited by you in accepting some one to be your father

or some name to be mine or for that purpose by " the children of now

a days " - say son of Sarphod Tablachi, if any ??

 

Do you " know " as to who is your father and who is your mother? What

proof or rationale you can give to support your acceptance of Mr X

as your father?

 

You asked " from where to pick the thread " . I reply to you that you

pick the thread from yourself and your Dear Father. Come On !

 

Reply now! Argue !!

 

Namaste Jee

 

Jee Jee

Shashikala

-------------------------------

Mr.Pratapji Bhatt has explained the existance of God beautifully.It

is very much in sync with Sri Sri Paramhansa Yogananda's explanation

in his books- " Autobiography of a yogi " and " Man's eternal quest "

which i have read. Also the story quoted by mahalaksmiji perfectly

describes how to know God.He is all knowing and yet unknown.He is

the Devine Intelligence that governs all that is known to us.God is

indescribebable.He can only be felt in the depths of a pure soul.

Ami Chhowala

 

--------------------------------

I still remain unsatisfied in this " divine " forum. How and why

Paramatma can not be an individual ? Is there nothing in your

scriptures like Gita which says that a devotee can also " see " God ?

My Begum Sahiba states that she read from a book of your Swami

Ramsukhdasji that Jai Dayal Goenka and Hanuman Poddar

had " darshanas " of God. Was His statement right or your reference

of good Swami is right? Why do you say that God can not be known?

How then the desire to know can be fulfilled? Whether I need an

instruction manual or not is not the focal point, in fact, to be

fair to me, answer to my questions in simple and convincing manner

is focal point! None of the " sadhaks " are convincing so far. I

asked from where to pick the thread? The responses are unclear and

incomplete.

 

Mr Mike ! Incomplete, was your answer. If you believe you were like

me in the past, then make me like you in the present. Is that not a

divine task? Is that not the role of this forum? Logic must exist.

Pointers must be there. Knowledge cant be beyond itself. What else

we are doing at present except meeting?

 

Mr Vyas - When Your so called " Nature " made oceans, Sun Moon etc

and when Nature is supreme then where is the question of God? Why

cant Fire/ Ocean/etc are called God ? If yes, then how God is

beyond knowledge? How God can not be seen as stated by Mr Pratap

Bhatt or by Vineet Sarvottam ?

 

" Sadhaks " - My Begum Sahibaa directed me to you people to satisfy

my knowledge quest ! I expected better as I am hungry for answers.

 

Sarphod Tabalchi

--------------------------------

Such a question can only arise from those who consider gross body as

real self and not the outer sheath of immortal " real self " which

contains the apriori knowledge.

 

They see God every day but do not recognise THEE. The Universal God

is Tri-Ani-Pada- three bodies in One i.e. gross, subtle and divine.

Since the entire Brahamad is God, His gross body consists of " Sun

and Moon His eyes, firmament his middle body and earth as His Feet "

and His Head is in Heaven. Thus entire Brahmand is God. Most of the

people who find gross body as real, want to imagine and visulaise

God as a human being forgetting that human beings who live on this

earth are " Thy " tiny living cells. We have several billions living

cells in our gross body, can any living cell of our body tell who we

are?

 

But those who find human soul as " real self " have no difficulty in

knowing God. His divine body is the Omniscient Supreme Soul

(Parmatma) and His subtle body " Mahadeva " is omnipotent Supreme

Spirit prevalent in all animate and inanimate life/things. His

spirit is found in Shuniya (cosmic void) of all kind of matter

consisting of atoms with unsuspected vitality. Because of His spirit

prevalent in shuniya, matter is not inert.

 

Since Man is born in the image of God, human beings are also tri-ani-

pada. Immortal soul resides in our divine body, spirit resides in

our subtle body and gross instruments in our material body. Those

who consider material gross body as the real self will always find

difficult to know formless and ineffable universal God.

 

Incidentally formeless and ineffable Universal God is Brahma- name

derived from Brahmand and other gods in human form are Iswaras.

Iswaras are not the gods of entire mankind.

with regards,

Prem Sabhlok

 

 

--------------------------------

Dear sarphod,

 

God is in nature,he can only be felt.His power is dwelling

everywhere in the nature in the form of cosmic vibratioins .If we

can tune our mind with the same frequency by way of sadhana we can

feel the godliness of the nature.How a sperm can create a body with

life is the proof of the supernatural power of the god. So far we

are only establishing the things which are existing, but we are

unable to establish about the source of the existence.

Our ultimate goal our of life is to reuntite ourselves with the

nature from where we have come.Nothing extra to be thought about

god. Living close to the nature is living near god. But the senses

attached to our body always act against our realisation

process.controling the senses is the biggest challenge of our life.

Let us teach our children about righteous way of living ,think

naturally and live naturally.

 

with regards

Ramana kothuri

 

-------------------------------

--------------------------------

The questions of Mr Sarphod Tabalchi are basic questions. I too

dont believe that the Supreme Power would not leave any pointers or

logics of His existence. From where to pick the thread ? I dont

agree with Mr Sarvottam that God can not be seen by His beloved

ones.. There has to be nothing which is beyond the powers of

Supreme. One principle came from Mike's narration and Mr Vyas'

message that before " big bang " too something existed or that if

there is creation then there must be a creator. But how that is

exclusive prorogative of God only ? Creativity is universal symptom

and authority. Spiders are also creators as per Mike Keenor. Please

elaborate with reference to Sarphod's questions. What about five

elements? Are they creators? Are not these elements playing the

transformation game? I think more serious and direct discussions are

warranted on the subject, not just belief stricken answers. First

the logics/rationales have to be exhausted.

 

Luca Brasi

----------------------------

 

Jai Kali Mata

 

What is meant by " No one knows about time!!! " Also, I am unclear as

to how this is relevant to the questions asked? Is this idea about

time, emanated out of teachings of Shraddheya Swamiji referred by

him? Kindly clarify !

 

Bandook Singh

 

--------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

 

RESUBMITTED WITH SOME CORRECTIONS

 

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

You have asked -

 

1) Where is God, I have never seen Him?

Answer: Paramatma is not an individual that you or any one can

simply see. Existence - IS-ness (sattaa maatre) has been given the

name Paramatma. Otherwise there is no name for that Existence or all

Names are only Paramatma's (Supreme Consciousness's) Names.

 

2) Who has seen Him?

Answer: Paramatma has not been seen by anyone to date and in future

too Paramatma will not be ever seen. Shraddhey Swamiji has stated

that Paramatma can be believed, not known, nor seen. Beyond this

whatever anyone says, is questionable.

 

3) How is He?

Answer: How, where, when, what, why, such questions regarding

Parmatma are pointless. That which cannot be known, it cannot be

described at all.

 

4) What are you able to know " Time " (samay). This question has been

asked regarding time (whose beginning and end is unknown to us). It

is not a question about the watch or the interval. It is not only

you, but no one understands anything about " time " . They can say

nothing about time. Then why do you believe in time? Similarly

believe and accept Paramatma, it will be nothing but gain.

 

5) This same work is also performed by men through establishment of

laws. Just as all do not believe in the law, similarly, everyone

continues to speak and share for correcting one's foolishness, and

according to one's own convenience and conformance giving that

tattva a " form " . You too can speak about the same as well.

 

6) 'Existence' itself is 'Paramaatmaa'. Where can any supportive

arguments and evidence exist to establish the existence

of 'Existence' (named Paramaatmaa)? Then where is one to get the

support of this essential elemental belief 'ASTITTVA'? Reasoning-

deliberation-discussion (tark), proof-evidence (pramaan) can be of

that thing which we know. But Paramatma is not known and cannot ever

be known, then this reasoning and seeking evidence is not in

conformance to that reasoning.

 

7) Do you want Paramatma? or do you want an instruction manual or

an aphorism (sutra) to grab hold of Paramatma? Don't get caught up

in the vicious cycle of trying to find an instruction manual.

Leaving the search, become engaged in " Chup Saadhan " (Effortless

Awareness, Discipline of Silence). All quest, and inquiry will be

quietened, will become still.

 

Please kindly forgive any limitations in the expression / words

used.

 

Vineet Sarvottam

--------------------------

 

Hari Om

 

How to know what is beyond knowledge - is the moot question.

 

Logic/Rationale !! Proof !!! Sample !! Consider the following:

 

1 .Whatever we are able to see on this earth there is always a

creator /manufacturer - be it an allpin, pen, table, house, machine,

house, bed, watch, pen, paper, cloth or aircraft. Anything visible.

Then there should be creator of oceans, fire, air, mountains, earth,

Sun. Moon, stars also !

 

God is the creator of all. - CREATOR

 

2. Whatever thing which moves , be it car, aircraft, bicycle,

machine, computer, - there is always a controller thereof. Earth

also moves. Sun/Moon also move. Oceans remain in their limits. Sun

rises and sets perfectly without fail. There must be a controller of

them also!

 

God is the controller of all- CONTROLLER

 

Q BUT A HUMAN BEING ALSO CREATES ! WHAT IS SO IMPORTANT ABOUT IT ?

 

Ans A human being cannot " create " anything! It is only " nature "

which creates! You can only change the shape thereof. You can covert

gold into ornaments or iron into sword or utensil, but you can't

create gold or iron ! Only nature provides that. You can mix two or

more elements, formulate, change shape only. You can create . You

can " discover " only.

 

To be continued.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

-------------------------

Kindly read bertrand russel

Aranha Roy

 

---------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

Let us continue further on the subject and build on what sadhakas

have said.

Please, it may sound too intellectual, but it is not! It may humble

us!

Consider this: If we need to know/study any object, the object has

to exist in

the first place.

Even if we cannot know the object, we always know it exists. This

knowing of an

existence is prior to the knowledge of its nature, attributes,

function etc.

The Universe is a collection of objects, and can be said to be one

Existence

fundamentally. Individual objects within it are individual

existences localized

in space and time over which they exist, and change to other forms,

continuing

the existences.

When we say Universe we mean the Existence only. Even the word

Universe points

to the Existence first. How do we know such Existence itself? Only

by being

aware/cognizant of it, no other way. So the Existence is awareness

of Existence.

To see what is prior to such Existence, there has to be Awareness to

know

whether or not such Existence IS. Thus Awareness as Existence has to

be

beginningless! What is after the Existence, non-existence? no,

because to say

it, there has to be Awareness of non-existence. If there is

Awareness of

non-existence, IS-ness is established. Thus that which IS, the

Existence(without

division into many objects), is eternally free of time and space

containing all

objects(names/forms) in time and space by creating mind and endowing

it with

this ability in terms of thoughts/feelings. Gita in 2:16 says the

real never

ceases to be.

Such Awareful Existence has to be most Powerful, Intelligent,

Beautiful, full of

Love and Blissful which is our experience. Can we not call this God?

God means Such Intelligence as seen through those who serve, and love

unconditionally, those who fight for Dharma, the righteousness, and

those who

preach God's message!

Evil actions come out from not realizing the Truth of Eternal

Oneness, GOD!

Namaskar.............Pratap Bhatt

 

 

 

----------------------------

My answer is simply to a question which has been indirectly

asked: " Why can't I see Him? "

Because He is the Seer. You are what you are looking for. It is

subjective awareness.

The problem lies with the word 'God' because we then suppose a

distinct being like a tribal deity. No, it is Awareness, Supernal-

consciousness. This is the Vedantic way. Find out who you really

are, not how others see you, but from your subjective perspective,

and you'll find what you're looking for.

Rishi Handa

 

----------------------------

Wonderful expression by Pratap (Bhatt) Bhai

 

Further, a simple but serious exercise could help in understanding

this.....

Sarphodji, ask yourself " who is asking these questions? "

" Who wants to know God? " ....and wait for the answer....

see what comes from deep inside.....

 

but you have to have patience.....and keep asking/repeating the

questions....

In fact when you come across any such question, ask yourself

who is this who wants to know this, who is asking the question?....

 

and wait for the answers and experience that follows.......

Best wishes

Sushil Jain

 

--------------------------------

I am a believer of God. Like one person said in the e-mail below, I

went through that 'show me God to believe' stage when I was around

22 years - 26 years. I was God lover before and again lover now. I

do not really know and I do not think with my limited ablity I can

ever know. At the same time I am not blind follower too. I am open

to all these 6 questions coming from a logical person because I had

them before too and have them now too. Before - with doubt, now -

with wonder and amazement.

 

Knowing God is a long journey. I am on the journey, I beleive I am

gradually understanding the divine concept. I am understanding them

through others, specially our ancestors, Indian scriptures. There

are great concepts, ideas and explanations, there are trash also

amongst them. I am amazed at the power of those ideas and

explanations. They attempted volumes and spent 100s of years to find

God and explain the divinity. Can I really understand all this in my

life? I doubt, which is why its a journey for me. Can I see God? It

depends on. I feel divinity in some great people, in their ideas for

humanity - around me.

 

OK, when somebody asks the question 'show me God', what they are

asking us is 'show me Jesus, Show me Shiva or show me Vishnu'. I

doubt if any one has seen God in these forms. Unless the divine

power appears so for any. As for God in its full form - Can I

imagine the distance between the Earth and the nearest star (Alpha

Centauri - about 4 light years away). I cannot imagine that

distance - however logically I think. Can I see God then - which is

full of this universe? Impossible to imagine. Then how can I see

God, unless God willingly appears to me.

 

My dear friend, answers to those 6 questions need volumes of

explanation or simply experiecing of the divine power - depending on

where you stand on the quest for God. Its a journey, so please

discuss with people who have done the research (of your 6 questions

before) and experience the facts yourself. You still go through the

oscillations of belief and disbeliefs, but if your quest is sincere

you will start seeing light at the end of tunnel.

 

The above does not give straight answers to even one of your

questions. So thanks for your time, if at all you read through this

until now.

 

Venu Gopal

--------------------------------

 

 

PRIOR POSTING

I will come at these questions in a hard nosed manner, maybe I am

blessed as I too waved aside religions when younger but traveled full

circle to The Beloved, who I dearly love with my absolute being.

 

Question 6: There has to be some basis for his existence? What are

the logics which point towards the existence of God? From where to

pick the thread?

O.K. I would ask the skeptical young, (I will call him S. ), tell me

S. how did this Godless Universe begin? He may be a brilliant

physicist, good chance though, regardless S will start to talk about

the 'big bang', the question would then be, o.k. S. was there

substance, was there energy, and was there time, before the 'Event'?

I would ask S. also when this energy of the bang runs out what

then?, I would press the point home that the Great Indians

Traditions had a good explanation for all this many millennium

before the present time, and is probably a good guide for the

scientists. Oh! I would ask my young friend S. where did the laws of

physics come from? Apparently they are unique, the laws had to be

spot on for there to be an existance, that is what the physicist

seem to be saying.

 

I would ask S. one other thing, how is it possible for a spider to

build the perfect web according to its kind, without actually being

taught.

 

I would say to S., think about it, think about it, be tenacious, be

mercilessness, and be brave, let your desire for the truth take you

where it will, just hang in there! S. my friend I was once like you,

maybe one day we can really talk.

 

With Respect and Divine Love,

 

Mike Keenor

------------------------

 

Dear Sadak,

 

1. Where is God I have never seen Him?EXAMPLES Most children know

water is H2O (Hydrogen 2 parts and Oxygen 1 part) ask them them to

show hydrogen and oxygen showing water. Next show them Yogurt (Curd)

and ask them to show milk. Bigger children ask them to show planets.

Then tell then from Sanskrit slokas-- " God is apprameyam " that which

cannot be seen or known by senses as in case of above examples, as

God can be only known by Gyana (knowledge)

2. Who has seen Him? Like in case of scientist tell as per above

examples, so does Saints tell. Only a saint (Guru) can show God as

shown to Vivekananda by Swamy Ramakrishna

3. How is He? Slokas say: Aroopamai, Aksharamai. Roopam, Akandamai,

Viratroopamai Etc. No definite shape as HE appears in the form that

the devotee wants. HE is in sounds - Om, HE is like Sri Krishna/Sri

Rama Etc, Omnipresent (That cosmic energy filled in everything), HE

is in all shapes and forms.

4. If I dont know how do I accept? Contemplate. If you accept that

there is Galaxies then contemplate what energy is performing whole

universe, like in the case of any toy needs battery, car need petrol

or fuel, computer need electricity etc. Still do not want to accept-

Leave it.

 

Jai Sri Krishna

 

baiya sathyanarayan

-----------------------------

 

All questions arise out of answers. When one asks a question

either he needs a confirmation of the answer which he already has

or he is answering his own question. When somebody is asking a

question relating to God, first he has to explain what is in his

mind when he says or thinks of GOD.

 

Einstein said that the world is an optical illusion. We think and

feel that we are separated from the rest. This is an optical

illusion. We have no direct contact with the outside world. All

the sensorial data has to filter through our optical nerve and our

mind (delusion). So we have no idea of what is exactly out there.

When one realizes this he comes closer to God or some superior

knowledge.

 

To realise that we are the debris of God is the supreme

realisation.

 

The most mysterious thing holds the most important key. Death is

the most mysterious thing. Death holds the most important key.

 

When death happens. The soul/consciousness releases out of the

cage (body � which is always subjected to three dimensional view

and

linear concept of time and space), one will realize or merge with

God

 

H. Subair

 

 

------------------------------

dear pratapji,thank u for giving us such wonderful knowledge.person

like you are really god's gift to us.

bhargav mehta

------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Re: Does God (Paramatma) Exist? Where is the Proof? What

is the logic ?

 

Through that supreme devotion he comes to know Me in reality, what

and how great I am; and thereby knowing Me in essence he forthwith

enters into My being.

 

Gita - Chapter 18 Sloka : 55

 

Sundara Raghavendran

---------------------------

 

Deaar Sadhakas, Namaste!

When someone says " where is God? I have never seen Him " , that person

has to know what God is that he expect to see, otherwise he cannot

ask the question. The question comes from the implicit assumption

that God is some imagination, ideas, knowledge, belief, etc. in the

mind and what I see out there is definitely not " God " .

So it is better to rephrase the question back to What God is first.

When that is understood, all questions by Tabalchiji will get

answered.

Consider the following dialogue:

Q: Do you have a doubt about your own existence?

A: No, I know I exist beyond a shadow of doubt. It is so obvious to

me!

Q: How do you know you exist?

A: I don't know HOW, but I am sure I DO!

Q: Do you need any help of another person, scripture, or some

logical explanation to confirm you do exist?

A: Definitely not, even if they say I don't exist, I know I do,

because it is experiential within me now. I don't even need any

sense organs-mind-intellect to tell me I exist!

 

So, it is self-evident existence, of " beingness " we all feel within

us, and by which we know what is knowable in this world as objects

of knowledge. This experience of Being Conscious is always with us,

never are we away from IT, not even in our sleep when body-mind-

world are all gone no one knows where! But I am always!

I just have to find out that ultimately this " I " is Impersonal and

is of the nature of Existence-Consciousness which we call God!

Personal God of Bhakta appears in this Impersonal!

Based on this, I can conclude that God is not a particular object

among many objects we know through sense organs, mind and intellect.

It is THE UNIQUE and objectless EXPERIENCE!

It is like our eyes who cannot see themselves and yet know their

existence beyond any shadow of doubt because SEEING takes place

automatically by just Being.

Once it is grasped, it can lead to God Realization!

Namaskar...

 

Pratap Bhatt

 

-------------------------------

 

My dear Sarphod,

There is a very beautiful story from ancient times that I have

heard from my guru. Once, a king called his minister and said, " I

want you to answer two questions.....otherwise your position will be

at stake.....first, can you show me God. Secondly, what is God

doing right now?

The minister was in anxiety. He went home, began searching

through various scriptures....wondering if he would have a job the

next day. His small son approached him, and noticing his father's

perplexity, inquired, " What troubles you, father? " The father

responded, " Oh, this is not something you would understand. " At

the child's persistence, the father finally explained. The small

child smiled, and simply said, " Father, that is so easy to

answer.....just tell the king that even a small child can answer

these inquiries, and I will then give him my responses " .

The father had no choice, as he didn't know the way to

respond. So, when the child came before the king, he requested the

king, " First, please have a pot of milk brought forth. " The king did

so. Then the child inquired, " Is there ghee in this milk? " The

king said, " Yes, it is there. " Then the child explained, " It is

there, but you cannot see it. Why can you not see the ghee? " The

king said, " There is a process by which the ghee will be brought

forth, of course, first one must churn the milk into butter, then

the butter is slowly heated until the ghee rises to the

surface......only after one patiently follows this process will he

see the ghee. " As the king was speaking, slowly realization came

into his heart, that similarly, one cannot demand to see God at this

moment....there is a process. One who's heart is not pure, who

does not have love and devotion, cannot see the Lord, but He will

certainly reveal Himself to those who are willing to accept the

process of " bringing forth the ghee " .

The child then said, " You are asking me what God is doing.

That is putting me in the postion of teacher, and you as disciple.

So, is it appropriate for you to be sitting on your throne, if you

are learning from me? " The wise King immediately pleced the child

on the throne, and sat in front of him, ready to try to understand

his next lesson. " This is what God is doing " ....he said. " He is

taking someone from a low position and putting him into a high

position, according to the results of his work, and taking someone

else from a high position and putting him into a low position. "

The king was very pleased with the child's answers, and rewarded him

and his father.

So, one may say, " I don't accept such simplistic

responses " .....well, then, such a person will never see the Lord,

unless and until he is fortunate enough to get the association of a

sadhu, by whose association one's heart melts. When one truly

comes into contact and develops some sukrti by contact with a God

consscious person, there is no material, anaytical way to explain

what happens. It is beyond our mundane intelligence, our ability to

analyze. So, simply pray for the youth you are hoping to guide,

and gradually perhaps the mercy of the sadhus will come to them.

It is not a mechanical process.

I hope my words have been gentle, encouraging, and helpful.....it

is truly a sadness which we all share as parents if our children

become somewhat agnostic or doubtful of the underestanding of the

Lord's presence, and the need for ancient, eternal tradition. We

can only pray to be the best examples of loving, patient friends for

them that we can possibly be.

 

respectfully,

Mahalaksmi Dasi

 

-------------------------------

Sarphod,

 

Read Paramahansa Yogananda's book " the Autoibgraphy of a Yogi "

published by Self Realization Fellowship, Los Angeles, CA.

 

Haley H. Haynes

--------------------------------

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!

In this posting I would like to build on my previous post.

We as parents must deeply understand the truth of who we are, what

is the nature of world and God first. Then only we can explain to

our children. I would shy away to tell children that because it is

said in our scriptures, you have to believe in God being such and

such.

 

We can begin on the path of knowledge with the premise. That which

always IS irrespective of time, location or cause, is Truth. Truth,

thus, cannot be denied and has to be our continuous experience

always, not some states we experience that come and go, rather That

in which all states of experiences happen.

 

In the beginning it may sound like intellectual, but understanding

of that which always IS, has to be our real nature, or Reality of

whatever we all seem to experience dawns on us sooner rather than

later. What is Reality, then?

If we continue to inquire, we may find that whether I am in joyful,

or painful or sad or indifference or even in depressed

situations, " I am " always present and " knowingness " of these various

situations I am in is also always present too, which I never notice

due to my attachments/aversions to situations. These situations

eventually disappear but not " I " .

What is the nature of this I that we all say I when referring to

ourselves? Whatever it is, for sure it IS! This ISNESS-I is the most

certain experience and is Truth. Even if I see illusion, I or seeing

is the truth. This seeing then is communicated as I see an object(or

hear, taste, smell, touch, think, feel etc). I and seeing is

synanymous as consciousness.

 

Now extend this to outer world. Regardless of objects we perceive

out there, Being Conscious of them is the only truth of our

experience. Thus, alleged external world is nothing but ONE

Undivided/Whole Existence/Consciousness(Absolute) in our experience.

Mind is given to us to divide the Existence into different objects

for practical and Divine play. When we come to this understanding,

our attitude towards world changes to one of dispassion, devotion

and to serve it as God, in whatever ways we can. We see God

everywhere our eyes fall upon!

This is God relization.

Namaskar.............Pratap Bhatt

 

GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES:

1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify their doubts

related to Gitaji shlokas. Therefore, responses which further

clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be posted.

2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to

substantiate your response.

3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the

extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas

4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting

sadhaka's time.

5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only.

6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other

organizations.

7. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone

number, address etc.

8. Please do not address the response to a particular individual

since the message is going to the entire group.

9. Due to the large readership, all responses may not be posted.

10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if content

is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the group.

11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth,

westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use to Sanskrit

words only, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit bracketed

wherever possible.

 

MODERATOR

Ram Ram

------------------------

 

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My question is that how to prove that there exists a super naturalpower called "God" ? At least how to explain that. How to correlateHis existence with the character of the world? Children now a daysneed more than belief to accept. Can there be any way vide which wecan establish that God exists. If some body says say :1. Where is God I have never seen Him?2. Who has seen Him?3. How is He?4. If I dont know how do I accept?5. God is a term coined by elders to put moral shackles over us sothat we may indulge in goodness.6. There has to be some basis for his existence? What are the logicswhich point towards the existence of God? From where to pick thethread?

Sarphod Tabalchi

NEW POSTING

To my beloved sadhaks,Where is God? Who has seen Him? How is God? How do I accept Him? What logic points towards God? Let us look at Gita 7/19"After taking many births and acquiring the human form and realizing that God is Everything, should such a knower (Jnanavan) surrender to Me, indeed such a great soul is a rarity. "Repeat such a great soul is a rarity. My question is how can one not see God, who cannot be aware of where He is, how He is, but to accept Him is a good place to start and how to do this is by establishing a direct affinity for God.Everything is God. God has in simple words, expounded to us the innermost secrets of the hearts of great souls of Vasudev Sarvam. God is Everything. God is a manifestation of all that is around us(trees, mountains, birds, animals, mankind)Bhagavan says(Gita 18/55)" After realizing my quintessence (Tattva) man immediately merges into Me."Those who want to attain God do so by Discipline of Action, Knowledge and Devotion.For more info on God realization go to Swamiramsukhdasjis site and read on how to attain God with humility.catherine andersen

-------------------------

Shree Hari:Ram Ram.

By Grace of God these questions are on my computer:

1. Where is God I have never seen Him? God is in your mind. You can't see God with your eyes as mental conceptions are not seen by us.

2. Who has seen Him? Nobody ever declared he/she has seen God.

3. How is He? Nobody ever described how is God.

4. If I don't know how do I accept? If you don't know accept or don't accept, choice is yours.

5. God is a term coined by elders to put moral shackles on us so that we may indulge in goodness. What harm is there if you indulge in goodness? Indulge in goodness or not, choice is yours.

6. There has to be some basis for His existence. What are the logics which point towards the existence of God? from where to pick the thread? Existence of Existence (termed Tattva, Sattaa by Swamijee Shree Ramsukhdasjee) needs no basis for its existence. Existence of Existence is all logic and all illogic but they can't point towards Existence of Existence similarly as you can't mix water into water when you are under water only. You are the beginning and you are the end of the thread. Pick it up and go. You shall finish at the other end of thread and shall be surprised to experience that what you sought is the seeker. Vasudev: Sarvam. (Gita 7:19).

If you conceive God, you fail to experience the experience as experience is experience only (Swamijee in God IS Everything page 2 last para "Similarly in this world, men, animals, birds, trees, mountains, stones, bricks, sand, lime, earth etc. are of diverse kinds, yet what resides intrinsically within, has no form and that formless essence is God".).

Bandhu, if anything is easiest it is Realizing God (Existence, not any human with four hands etc they are NOT God as they don't reside in everything, they come and go.) Who is ever Realized as You can't deny your existence. Ram Ram.

Kachcha Sadhaka Sarvottam.----

5 Fallacies & Realities about God

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Fallacies* Ego Consciousness

 

Realities of Self Consciousness

 

 

1

 

Humans believe that God needs something.

 

Humans know that God needs nothing. God is beyond needs and demands.

 

 

2

 

Humans believe that God can fail to get what He needs.

 

Humans know that God can never fail to get what He does not need. He has no needs. God is his own measure beyond failures & successes.

 

 

3

 

Humans believe that God has separated them from Him because they have not given Him what He needs.

 

Humans know that God has integrated them from Him because they are God in human form. God is beyond form and non-form as one Living Consciousness.

 

 

4

 

Humans believe that God still needs what He needs so badly that God now requires them, from their separated position, to give it to Him.

 

Humans know that God never needs any thing from humans other that what they are and have. God is in human form.

 

 

5

 

Humans believe that God will destroy them if they do not meet His requirements.

 

Humans know for God there is no destruction and creation but infinite manifestations of energy of Living Consciousness. Dance of Living consciousness is appearance & disappearance of Physical Universe.

*Neale Donald Walsch (The New Revelations)

Sushil Jain

PRIOR POSTING

Hare Krishna

God is worshipped in 3 forms:1. Attributeless-Formless (Nirgun-Nirakar)2. Attribute-Formless (Sagun-Nirakar)3. Attribute-Form (Sagun-Sakar)

Goswami Tulsidasji has said"NIRGUN ROOP SULABH ATI SAGUN JAAN NAHI KOI""The attributeless form of Parmatma is very easy to understand butno one can know the form of Parmatma with attributes."

The first form of Attributeless-Formless Pramatma can be proved bylogic of uninterrupted existence (akhand satta). The second form ofAttribute-Formless (Sagun-Nirakar) Parmatma can be proved by logicof conscious and sentient Creator, Sustainer and Destroyer.

But the third form of Parmatma with form and attributes (Ram,Krishna, Shiva etc.) cannot be proved by any logic, rationale etc.They can only be believed with purport of Gita, Ramayan, Sadhak-Sanjivani etc.If anyone argues over Ram being God then questions like these willarise "In forest how did Lord Ram get deceived by a gold-deer? If Heis deceived then how is He Omniscient? Why did Lord take the help ofSugreev's army? If He takes help then how come is He Almighty?...."

When Lord Ram killed Ravan's mighty brothers Khar and Dushan, Ravandecided to examine whether the Omniscient and Almighty Parmatma hastaken Ram-avatar. He kidnapped Sitaji (with disguise of an ascetic)by deceiving Lord with a golden-deer. Lord failed in the examinationand Ravan was successful in his evil plan, but what was the endresult? Lord Ram destroyed the entire clan of Lankan demonsalongwith Ravan.

That is why Goswamiji has said"RAM ATARKYA BUDDHI KAR JAANI""Lord Ram cannot be known by intellect."

Faith in Parmatma with form and attributes (known as Bhagwan) canonly be developed when one does satsang. Reading scriptures is alsoone form of Satsang.

Hare KrishnaVarun P. Paprunia

Hare KrishnaDear Sarphod Uncle,

I sincerely apologize to you and your family for the language I haveused. I thought you were just trying to outsmart us with yourintellectual prowess so I used the same ploy on you; but Sir you area true sadhak. Sadhanaji, Mikeji recognized you but because of my so-called cleverness I did not recognize you. Again my sincereapologies for the usage of harsh words and blunt language.

Hare KrishnaVarun P. Paprunia------------------------------Om, God = generator orgniser destroyer.Do you see the air? Nosuppose you don't see the air then you can't see the energies in theair that sustain our body. Suppose you want to hold a grand partyof 5000 people continuing 15 days, then how much work you have todo, you will distribute your work among your relatives. Think ofGod is a organising 600 crores or more ( not only about earth butthink about whole universe). Think who has that Supreme organizingpower ! You or God. God is in every thing from atom to Everest.Suppose you made a car that each and every thing came from you meanseach part of car made from you, by you. That is God. He iscolourless, touchless, soundless, shapeless because he is supremeenergy. If you trust and have faith in God. you will trust ongod.this is the one kind of work of god. because hi is ruling onus.Whether you go to the church or any mandir or masjid, your needsby pleading to your superior… He is That. And you say uponfulfilling your wish - "thank God" What is that power that isfulfilling your needs? Whether small or a big one, it is fulfilledand often no by your effort

Hari Om,nilesh popat mali,

-------------------------------PRIOR POSTING

To Respected Sadhaks of this really divine , perhaps the only of itskind across the globe, Satsanga Group!

It is me, Dear Brothers, with my Dear Begum Sahibaa respectfullythanking you all for gems of wisdom which you imparted to me and tothe world. An association of people like you, group like yours, isor can only be God willed. Indeed, with people like Vyasji, (extremely polished and never contradicting. Must be the one who hasseen/ touched the "dukhalayam" very closely, very wisely and wonover the same), Mike Keenor ( You are pride of the very humanity)Varun, ( I am sure he is younger than many of us- his impetuosity/quick reaction reflects that, but very clever and very organised-Refer Gita 16/1 - jnanayogarvyavasthitam- an ideal young follower)Pratapji Bhatt ( Spl regards for you, for not firing me back) , thatreal firebrand Dear Sister of all of us Shashikalajee ( What asharp discrimination you have been blessed with ! ), Mira Dassji (An impartial devotee /follower of Respected Swamiji RamsukhdasjiMaharaaj), Rajaji, Baiyaji and dozens like them, are the jewels ofthis divine forum. My heartfelt pranaams to Vineetji Sarvottam. Hiscomments were innocent and correct.

Thanks AgainSarphod TabalchiRaseeli Rani Tabalchi

--------------------------------PRIOR POSTING

Dear Sadhak,Yes, Sadhakji, you are a Sadhak-a seeker of Truth,this is what myKrishna says--

Chatur-vidha bhajante maam janh sukrutinorjuna!Aarto jijnasuj-arthaarthi jnaani cha bharatarshabha! (Gita 7 / 16)

O Arjuna! There are four types of noble souls who worship Me : Theafflicted, the seekers of knowledge, the seekers of enjoyment andthe wise.

Gigyasu - seekers of knowledge.

The main barrier in not seeing God here and now is that you areusing wrong tool my dear.You want to see God through yr mind, whichitself is Asat.A traveller of Gyaan Marg, must know the differencebetween Sat and Asat.He must disconnect himself from everythingwhich is Asat(temporary, everchanging). He needs to drop/disconnecthimself from everything-the world, its relations, his own body,senses, mind, intellect, ego..... When everything is dropped thereremains NOTHING.Just Nothing...simply Nothing.....From that NOTHING emerges Peace, Love and Bliss. From that Nothingemerges EVRYTHING... This is the beauty of Gyaan Yoga.

And the most wonderful,the most amazing truth about my belovedKrishna is---He(God) becomes whatever you want Him to be. When wesee HIM as our protector, He rushes to rescue us as in the case ofDropadi, when we see Him as our Friend, He becomes our friend as inthe case of Sudama, when we accept HIM as all powerful miraculousbeing, miracles start unfolding in our lives.When we see HIM in astatue, he becomes motionless. He is everywhere in all forms,andwithout forms too, just we are unable to see him due to our ownlimited vision.When we accept HIM as our Guide and Guru, like Arjuna did, and wishto see HIS Vishwaroopa, He bestow us divine vision and we see Him ineverything, everywhere. I see many people saying God does not exist,money is God..ect, etc. So what, He does not hesitate to become nonexistence for them, still showering His Love....No discrimination inHis regime.

He just "IS". I love Swamiji the way He describes HIM. SomewhereSwamiji said-He IS or He IS NOT, this "IS" remains the same in boththe statement(nahi main bhi hai or hai main bhi hai).wow...Howblessed this human form is!!!

How divine this forum is!!!Lets be Love, Peace and Bliss !Shivoham! Shivoham!!With lots of Love,A SadhikaSadhna Karigar------------------------------

1. Where is God I have never seen Him? You cant see HIM as HE is anobject. Have you seen Saturn planet? How do you belive thatscientist? You belive based on Knowledge. In temples 2000 years oldthere are nine planets know as Nava Graha. How they saints knewwithout scientific proof.2. Who has seen Him? 100 `s of saints.3. How is He? HE is formless and with form or any form HIS devoteneeds.4. If I dont know how do I accept? If you dont know, try to know.Still your if you fail- It Gods will.5. God is a term coined by elders to put moral shackles over us sothat we may indulge in goodness. Why your parents put morals asshakles to put you good charactor. So is God put. Just understandit. If you think shackles you are mistaking. If you think guidanceyou will progress.6. There has to be some basis for his existence? What are the logicswhich point towards the existence of God? From where to pick thethread? Nine planets and earth are in space floating. Who made them?You want to make something you gather material and put your effortto make project. So there is someone who is behind all and yourthinking capacity. Otherwise could be a lay man.Jai Sri Krishnabaiya sathyanarayan------------------------------Pranam

God exists. If you want solid evidence I recommend you searchon "milkmiracle" You will see for your self.

bvmJai Shree Ram------------------------------

Dear Mumukshus (those who yearn for Divinity), Namaste. For thosewho yearn for Divinity's Peak Experience, no such doubt arises; infact their question would be why shd they have doubt in God!Doubting God takes one nowhere.

Trying to reach the divinity is the correct way. There is no proofof the dreams we have very regularLy. They don't 'exist' in thesense of all these existing objects, you see.

WHERE IS GOD WHOM I DON'T SEE:Do you 'see' the radio waves, electricity, magnetism? Do you seelove, hatred, jealousy? Do they not exist? Why all shd be visible?

WHO HAS SEEN HIM?A lot of people have 'witnessed' 'Him to whom the divinity hasrevealed 'itself'.

WHO IS HE? - HOW IS HE LIKE?He is She and is That. One form for one thing is inapplicable inthat experience of visioning the Reality which is The Absolute amongthe experiences.

IF I DON'T KNOW HOW DO I ACCEPT?The dead people, unborn people, people who are far away - you can'tsee them. Do you lose belief in such invisible all? Be honest inanswering these abstract questions.

GOD IS A SCHAKLE . . . GOODNESS.God is not directly linked to morality, goodness, honesty, kindnessetc which we teach for our youngsters to whom we want good futureand for building in them the moral character which saves oursociety. All honest people won't see God; no dishonest person cansee God.

THERE HAS TO BE SOME BASIS FOR THE EXISTENCE OF GOD. WHAT ARE THELOGICS FOR THE EXISTENCE OF GOD? FROM WHERE TO PICK THE THREAD?We do ask for proofs for the objective things only. God astranscendental baffles those objectives. There is no harm in thedisbelief about God. But missing a chance of His experience whileborn as human beings is to miss a great opportunity. We do all thosethings of happiness. enjoying etc for which we can afford. We canafford to have a Peak Experience in this human life. Why not try?If you surf the Youtube on the Internet, try among them thespiritual masters' sayings. Ramana Maharshi, NisargaduttaMaharaj . . there are scores of them who are the proofs of God.You may want to read Tony Parsons book, 'The Open Secret'.

I am not glorifying him or anybody in this context. I wanted toshare with people who are seekers like me. I wish all our people thebest of luck during this Christmas and Happiness in the New Year.

Dr Shastry--------------------------------1. Where is God I have never seen Him? You cant see HIM as HE is NOTan object. Have you seen Saturn planet? How do you belive thatscientist? You believe based on Knowledge. In temples 2000 years oldthere are nine planets know as Nava Graha. How they saints knewwithout scientific proof.2. Who has seen Him? 100 `s of saints. In Duryodhan Shaba when SriKrishna took Virat roop, everyone folded their hand and seen HIM asGod except Duryodhan who told it was illusion.3. How is He? HE is formless and with form or any form HIS devoteneeds.4. If I dont know how do I accept? If you dont know, try to know.Still your if you fail- It Gods will. Yasodha accepted Sri Krishnawith love and compassion, so she tie HIM up with rope to a roller.Duryodhan wanted to tie up Sri krishna who took Virat roop unable totie up. It is the way you accept.Jai Sri Krishna

baiya sathyanarayanPRIOR POSTINGJai Hanuman

I agree entirely with Usha Sridhar. Dear Sister! Keep writingregularly . You are precise, accurate and perfect. So is SisterAnita- absolutely correct and "really" .practical and therefore onthe path of Gita 7:19 ! Welcome Brother Wilson ! Welcome Ram Bhai !O Daddy the Great ! Let such "Divinity" continue flowing unto thisGT Group ! So Pleasing ! So unbelievable !! So many reasons toexclaim with pleasure- "Brilliant" !

Thanks Sarphod ! How is your Begum Sahibaa ! It is a sin to make hercry- Get me ? SIN - I say! Do you understand what is sin? "Anguishof your soul" is most of the times " your sin" - also ! AlmostAlways!

Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj would often say that what is the proofthat Mr X is your father - BASED ON YOUR PERSONAL/ INDIVIDUAL/REMEMBERED/EXPERIENTIAL-"KNOWLEDGE"?

No body, come what may, has been able to "prove" in the past, norcan they do so in the present , nor will they be able to "prove"that in the future ! Nor can there be any possibility of provingthat. If you can't "prove" the existence of your even this father onearth, how can you prove the existence of your "eternal father"?

Reason: "Self" Proven ! Obvious !! Beyond Mind/ Intellect/Ego !

"Acceptance"/ "Faith" / "Belief" - is the only remedy. If some bodywants to argue on this - Come On !! Hats off to you BrotherWilson !! Please keep contributing and participating in thisSatsanga forum!

Mike Bhaiyya ! I gleefully noted three things in your latestmessage -

1 An Aussie !2 Clever 'little' dialogue!! ( Jeeva -Maya - Jagdish. Maya is in thecenter. Noted that Brother? Between the two ! )

Above all -

3 Flowers in the Sky !!!!

(What an effort by You? What a research ! How well read , indeed !So difficult! Yet so obvious ! So handy ! So quick - within hours ofposting the 'little dialogue' ! So Self Proven ! So inaccessible !Yet so easily available !

But available in the universe to whom ? Available why ? How timelyand exactly ?

Sure, the poem was already existing in this creation / uiniverse fora long long time- it was not Mike Keenor made- but what about itsmanifestation !! )

Thanks indeed ! Unbelievable! "DIVINE" !! Do you get us MrSarphod? - We are Sadhaks ! Only "Sadhaks" !

Namaste JeeJee JeeShashikala---

Dear Vyasji,

You have answered beautifully. But, the problem is that Tabalchi jiis more interested in getting 'brilliant' and similar appreciatorycomments from others (as is evident from his second mail).

Before trying to know God (Where is God I have never seen Him? isTabalchi ji's first question), he should explain what he is. If heknows about himself, then he will see God's smiling face. Again, theproblem is that Tabalchiji is depending on others even to know "koaham (who am I)"

May I quote from Shankara ? "KASHTWAM KOHAM KUTAH AAYAATAH, KA MEJANANI KO ME TATAH" (who are you, who am I, from where have I come,who is my mother and who is my father).

Kind regards,Suresh C SharmaPRIOR POSTINGHari Om

One who has thirst inside, only can see water. If there is nothirst, inspite of water being in your front, it is not noticed byyou. Similarly , one who has thirst for God only can "see" God, andone who has thirst for world only, "sees" the world.

It is your desire which in fact determines what you can or can notsee- IRRESPECTIVE OF WHAT IN FACT EXIST OR DOES NOT EXIST.

Because of your desire for the world only you see the world which inreality NEVER EXISTS. Because of your non-desire only you can notsee God who in reality ALWAYS EXISTS !!

Want to see God? Mr Sarphod? Develop desire for Him !!

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B----------------------------

Dear members,

This is the first time I am writing on this forum - not because Ididnt wish to comment earIier, but only because I am too young inthis stage - by experience and by learning.However, looking at the questions raised below, I thought I shouldat least share my feelings:

1.God is no external being - he or she is part of each one of us -all living beings. So please, do not try to explain to children thatgod is some type of other person. And therefore, each one of us hasthe responsibility to lead a life which moves towards positivity,looking at betterment, and not hurting people, beings by our act.

Seeing GOD - we all have. Only some have realised him. He is in mymaid who comes to work each morning, he is in my child - who hugs meevery time I meet him, he is in my husband - who lives with me andhas made my life complete. I have seen him in the rickshaw walla -who stopped by me to offer me ride to office yesterday. I see himevery day in different forms - sometimes, I too do not realise thatit was him who smiled in the morning and made my day. Everytime youmeet a person who does good to you - he or she is a reflection ofGOD. So, see god in all and see all in him.2.The world is like stage (as Shakespears has said) - and all of usare in here to play a role - be it tree, human, animal, you and me.And so is a child here to play a role. All our roles are defined bythis supreme power, whom we call GOD.

3. There are many happenings in our life which we humans are notable to explain - all this we credit to that UnKnowableforce/energy - GOD.

Try to see GOD in your family - your parents, your collegues, yourneighbours, and all the people whom you meet - search for that lightin them and do a small good act to make them happy. GOD would bethere with you!

Anita Sharma-------------------------Maybe my use of the word brilliant, can be misconstrued,a little tooAussie, it was intended as a exclamation of pleasure.

I know you are playing the roll of 'devils advocate', as clearly youwould understand, Maya and Jeeva in Jee Jee Shashikalaji's cleverlittle dialog.

Best to direct a single question to a Sadhak/Sadhaks.

See Zen poem below:(Emptiness in full Bloom).

Leaping from the Ledge of Infinite Regress,The Unmoved Mover fell into Formlessness:Pure silence echoed between the galaxies,Eons of eons vanished in a second,Withered trees bloomed in fires,Polar mountains melted, rivers went dry,Thusness scattered in sixty directions,Space became Time, time became things,Black Holes filled with Nirvana,A billion samadhi mirrors shattered,Galaxies snuggled within a single skull,Many became One, One only, only One.Then, the Divine Illuminatrix in All BeingsOpened Her clouded Eye, to see:Flowers in the Sky.

With Respect and Divine Love,

Mike Keenor

--------------------------Hari Om.

Respected sir,I've studied from my childhood that motheris our first GOd.We can see God only through our mother,father and Guru.Where is the proof that you came through your mother's womb?If you can explain how you passed through your mother with proof,I can explain with Krushna's Grace the true Krushna provided youhave the permission to see Krushna.Rest in my next.Hari Om.With Regards,Ushasridhar.

--------------------------

Jesus Says.I am the way, I am the Truth, I am the Faith. Please read the Bible.thanksWilson Kochukunju

Dear Mr. Sarfod & friends,

Since the beginning of human civilization, the question whetherthere is a God (or Gods), has occupied the human mind. It has alsobeen answered by various people in various ways in all the ages.But, the question has persisted till this day.

I have my own explanation. I emphatically say that Parmatma doesexist. The entire universe is within Him and He is also beyond theUniverse. He is so great and also so small that nobody can see Himwith his naked eye. He can only be realized. Regarding proof, everyliving being and every plant testifies His existence. With his super-intelligence, man has been able to do most amazing things andcreated wonders. But, man is still way behind in creating anythingthat is self generating. Every creation of God, on the other hand,is self-generating and self sustaining. Reproduction is a specialfeature of every species. Yet, every species has a life-time afterwhich it vanishes. Even this earth will meet its death some day. Wesee planets and stars dying and new ones coming up every day. Thisnever ending cyclic order of creation, recreation, assimilation andre-emergence is a glaring proof of His existence.

Yours sincerely,Ram Bhai------------------------------Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!Varunji, I want to thank you so much for speaking out to Tabalchijiabout I being not judgemental at all. As a friend and a fellowseeker, I was suggesting, Tabalchiji to read as many times as neededto grasp the meaning or at least ask questions to clarify points.Most of us know that when we read or hear 2nd or 3rd time it makesso much difference in our understanding!I want to wish you the very best Tabalchiji. One day you may wake upand find all answers about Truth of God, this world and "you".All sadhakas have provided excellent answers/pointers!Wishing you the best of Xmas Holidays and New Year, my fellowsadhaks, I remain prayerful!Namaskar......Pratap Bhatt

 

-------------------------------PRIOR POSTING-Shree Hari-

Sarphodji,

You know; the world as you see it, is a shadow of what it really is,I once heard it described as seeing the reflections of reality on theback of a cave wall, one has to turn around to see the glory of whatit is.Most people it seems, focus their whole lives looking at the falsereality reflected on the wall of the cave.Have we not all read about Yogis with extraordinary abilities? Isthis all lies, do such souls look on the doubters such as yourself,say nothing, smile or laugh as Lord Krishna laughed, they havenothing to prove , all the doubters have to do is turn around as itwere, to understand.

One great soul that I admire was Swami Vivekananda, to me he seems tobe a man ahead of his time, a person of great intellect, and aspiritual giant. It was he that aroused the world to the wealth thatIndia had to give.

11th September, 1893: 'Response to welcome' address:

"Swami Vivekananda addressed the august assembly of seven thousandpeople starting with the words: "Sisters and Brothers of America...",and the whole of audience went into inexplicable rapture withstandingovation and clapping that lasted for more than three minutes......."

If you consider you have a mind of sound reasoning, then maybe youcould read the yoga aphorisms, translated by that great Swami. (Ifyou require any translation).

Why does your Lady weep, is it because she sees the anguish of yoursoul. No matter what you may say or truly think, you are in conflict,do you understand ? Jee Jee Shashikalaji has hinted at it, otherSadhaks have made the point also, things like why ask about thatwhichdoes not exist etc.Sadhaks have implied that they have been through that battle. Ihave,I will tell you this, how much you reach for Father, how much you cryfor him, the tears of anguish will then turn to tears of joy, whenyour heart breaks loose from prison that binds it.

You may not understand what I am writing about, but one day you will.

With Respect and Divine Love,

Mike Keenor-----------------------------Dear Sadaks,I have not seen God yet. That is the reason I am not silent. The onewho has seen God remains silent. Let us not make tell Mr.SherphodVedanta/Upanashids.1.Where is God I have never seen Him? To see a program on TV, oneneeds TV Equipment, Power (electricity), and telecasting tower2. Who has seen Him? One who has turned his body equipment as atemple, Power of tuning (Craving to liberate) in mind, as mind haselectricity, magnatism, and telecasting tower (GOD) omnipresent.Just one has to tune to HIS frequency that is surrender.3. How is He? HE is benevolent to come in any form you meditate.4. If I dont know how do I accept? Go on saying any name of HIS.Eventually HE will tune to your frequency as HE did to Druva.Jai Sri Krishnabaiya sathyanarayan----------------------------

Dear Sirphod

I made a posting on your question. There was no attempt by me or forthat matter by any body (from the posts I see) who could give youanswers like you might be expected.

If you want to learn about God (accept or otherwise is a differentissue) you need to spend time and energy. You can select a Guru whocan help you. I do not see from your postings you have thisexpectation, but the one below.

But if your goal is to dispute existence of God, there could beanohter forum that must be working on such attempts.

By the way you can come out with your real name.

Venu Komanduri

PRIOR POSTING

Hi Sarphod Tabalchi,1. Where is God I have never seen Him?It seems you never tried to see God. Seeing God is not possible byour physical eye. Those who have an insight of God only can see God.If you try sincerely seeing God is would not be a problem. There aremany ways prescribed in our scriptures. First, Have faith in it.Then after you never deny God.2. Who has seen Him?I see Him always and communicate with Him. Not only with God, I talkto birds and animals. I can understand them and they understand me.3. How is He?He is always Happy. He never deny anything. He never denied myexistence. He wants everyone happy.4. If I dont know how do I accept?Dont reejct anything. Accept everything as it is. Never expectanything in your way accept everything as it is. Keep God in yourmind if you dont know God. Chant Oh God Oh God Oh my God wheneveryou want deny God.5. God is a term coined by elders to put moral shackles over us sothat we may indulge in goodness.If you know this much of God you should not deny God.6. There has to be some basis for his existence? What are the logicswhich point towards the existence of God? From where to pick thethread?First you ask your Parents who are patient to teach you the basicconcept of God existence. Once you have prerequesites to learn GodGod comes to you automatically. Be Patient. Can you ever see theelectricity passing through a wire. A bulb is shining, Have you everenquired about the electricity which illumines the bulb? Think aboutTV., Fridge, Air Conditioner etc., etc. whcih can not functionwithout electricity. Even you can not ask these questions withoutthat power unseen in you. My dear beleive in God is far easier thandenying God.Lovingly, Krishna (Shobha) Das

------------------------Wonderful testing of sadhaks by Tabalchi jiWe all must thank him for the excellent questions and for giving anopportunity to better our understanding in the spiritual domain.

All questions have very easy answers. Excellent expression by allsadhaks...in answering these.

But it is very difficult to satisfy the questioner on the answers.since these very questions cloud everything....and become obstaclesto understanding the truthsince it is about knowing the questioner first............knowing orseeing God comes much later.....

It has happened to perhaps all of us in the beginning and we mayhave gone through this period.But if we are able to contemplate on the questions with someguidance, question begin to dissolve/disappear........and theanswers start looking meaningful........

So, Tabalchi ji and the begum sahiba could start with contemplatingexercise on the questions firstfor example:

Q1 Where is God? ----contemplate on......where it should be? whatcould be the place where it could be,why it can not be hear with us?Q2 Does God exist? ---- Contemplate on.....Who am I? ask yourselfrepeatedly who am I?Q3 Who has seen him is irrelevant? My seeing is important socontemplate on questions - Why I don't see the God? Can I see it?What could it look like? What should it be?Q4 If I don't know how do I accept? Contemplate on What I don'tknow? Do I know all? How can I know more?Q5 Any other word other than God could be used for it. Contemplateon: Is goodness gives happiness? Are moral values important? Whywe need to fear the word God to be good?Q6 Contemplate on questions: What is basis of its existence? Whatis the basis of our existence? What God must exist? Why prophetshave to come to this world? Who are these prophets?

See what comes as answers. It is a good learningexercise......answers are within and we must practice to startlistening.....everyone has to do this for himself..............bestwishes......Thank you....Sushil Jain

----------------------------Dear Sarphod:

I have similar questions that you have.

Following is the status of those questions (mind you not answers):

1. Just beacuse I can not see GOD, that does not mean that there isnothing like GOD which exists, since there are so many things thatexist and yet I can not see (ex: Air, Gases and so many unknowns tomankind yet)

2. Same way as I have the question on the existence of GOD, I alsohave the question on my question itself, i.e. I can not prove thatthere is no GOD either.

3. Say suppose some one suddenly shows me the GOD, what are my testsand verifications to accept him/her/it as GOD. Do I have all thosetools, a big NO (I am not sure about you)

4. Even if I have all those tools to test the existence of GOD andall the tests are proved positive, then is it going to help me. Thatmeans, do I have the right objective to find out this very unusualthing called GOD? What is that single biggest thing that isbothering me about finding out this GOD? Does it have theseriousness to find out the GOD? If it does all the above questionsshould be answerd positively. Or else, I am not sincere in my quest.

5. I might not have all these tools right now, yet I have the questto know about the existence of GOD, then I do not jump in to quickconclusions like "There is no GOD, this forum is not DIVINE, etc.,"because that conclusion neither helps me nor taps in to the rightsources of knowledge. I will be just fooling myself saying "I askeda question which this forum is not able to answer"

Just for the record, I remember in the whole known history ofmankind, only one person (Sri Ramakrishna Paramahansa) has admittedto have seen GOD and was ready to show GOD to the one who wasearnestly with deepest intellectual anxiety and sincerity (SwamiVivekananda).

The one who has shown and the one who was shown the GOD did not havequestions. The SOURCE and the SINK are in the perfect state of mind,one to give and the other to receive. Am I in the equanimity levelsof Swami Vivekananda? I don't think I am and let me know if you are.

If you think you are, just stay there with sincere hope, ARAMAKRISHNA will happen to you and your intellectual quest might befulfilled.

If not I need to get there before I start looking for GOD. Till suchtime, GOD is tentative truth for me.

With a hope it might help you,Sincerely,Krishna (devangam krishnamurthy)Hare Krishna

Sarphod, you have praised me by saying "I am very good". FYI! I wasnot entertaining you but I was questioning YOUR very existence. Youdon't have any doubt in your existence still you cannot prove it.Why so?? Have you thought over it?? If you can prove it (with yourlogic/rationale) then why don't you do it?

Mikeji called you brilliant (I wonder why) but he has also calledyou inflexible. But I think you have not noted that. He, Vyasji,Pratapji and others have also given many points. You should thinkover it, compare it with your logic and then prove it wrong. But forthis one need guts, because you will have to keep aside yourprejudices to think over others' points. Even if you are not able toprove us wrong it does not mean that we can make you accept God, wecan only give logics/rationale.

No one can force anyone to accept God, especially those who do notrespect their father. If you cannot respect your father than how canyou accept and respect the biggest father (Param-PitaParmeshwar).Your father has deserted you and your wife also seems tobe upset with your adamant attitude, but you still don't have anyshame in admitting it. Rather than introspecting over your attitudeyou are defending it.

Pratapji has not passed any judgment; it is you who is passingjudgments. Mike is best, Varun is very good, Vyas NB is making methink. If these are not judgements then what is it? Pratapji hascorrectly pointed out that you are not reading posts with an openmind.

You have posted these questions only because your wife has directedyou to this group. This is the biggest problem because you are notinterested in knowing or learning anything, you are only askingthese questions just for the sake of it, just for a mere formality.

Mrs. Sarphod, please don't insist your husband to post questions. Heis only wasting our time and also don't reveal him anything aboutGita, because if you do so you will unnecessarily incur sin (Gita18.67)

You cannot see God or feel His presence but you definitely feel yourexistence as "I AM", right? Then why can't you prove it with yourlogic. I have asked 3 questions w.r.t. your existence but did notget any reply.

Hare KrishnaVarun P. Paprunia---------------------

Jai Hanuman

Mr Sarphod ! So you do not think or talk or desire regarding "flower of sky"- because it does not exist. You yourself said that.You can think/desire/talk about only that thing which exists.

Now this is the biggest proof. You thought about God. You talkedabout God. You desired to know about God. You raised questions inthis forum about God. How can you do that- if God does not exist?

If you can do that then why did you not talk about "flower of sky"?As a law you can desire about only that thing which exists.

Answer now! To the point only. ONLY to the point.

You said yourself that you would believe in your parents even ifthey were dead immediately after your birth, because there is abasis. The presence of yourself itself is an indicator of theirexistence. True. Now go backwards. Presence of your parents meansyour grand parents were there. Go backwards and keep going. In theend you will find one male and one female. Who were their parents?

God is "Param Pita" - our eternal father.

Clear?

Namaste Jee

Jee JeeShashikala

 

----------------------Hari Om

You wanted as to what is sample of God. Answer as given by Varunjiis correct. You , yourself, are "sample" of God ! Because like God,you are also permanent and faultless. Everybody "experiences" that -I EXIST. ( You talked about experiencing- I am talking aboutexperience only) . Do you have any doubt Mr Sarphod that you are notexisting ? You never have any doubt on this. You never conduct anytest to determine whether you exist or not. You neverexperience/feel that - I DID NOT EXIST. About past you may saythat "I don't know", but you can't say "I didn't exist" ! How canyou say so?

Why can't you say? Because you have never perceived your"self" tobe non existing. Non existence of your"self" has never come intoyour experience. Even in respect of the daily occuring of deepsleep, your experience never suggests that at that time you were nonexistent. But at the same time you experience directly theabsence of ego, intellect, mind and body etc., in the deep sleep.

So you exist.So He exists.

Now you are constantly experiencing changes/temporariness in yourbody. Who can experience that? Only that element (Self) which ispermanent and changeless and who is looking separately canexperience so..

So you are permanent. You are witness. You are changeless. You arenot body. You exist both with or without body. You exist.

Similarly God is also permanent. God is also witness. God is alsochangeless. God exists both with or without body. God exists.

So you exist. At present you are existing Mr Sarphod Now in yourbody. In which part of the body you are existing Mr Sarphod? Inwhich part of the body you are not existing Mr Sarphod? In fact youare existing everywhere in the body.

God exists everywhere in the universe as you exist everywhere inthe body.

Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B------------------------------By summery of GITA: "Tat Twam Asi" or 'That You Are'This logic is explained by Many in different way, as Jesus : "Keepyour self as pure as a Temple, so that GOD can reside in you"As the world today is more scientific, we require proof by ourSenses.No machine can prove Logic.By psychologist EEG machine shows that Yog has a point when we gainenergy from vast outer energy when we Join our inner energy during ameditative state.Todays scientific terms were not expressed before. So we can saypositive Energy in us and arround is GOD.This GOD creates and increases, but the negative energy will growonly to destroy and eliminate named 'devil' !The different State of Mind or Self is depicted in the Epics ofRamayana and Mahabharata by the characters playing in the theatre ofthis World.The Conditions of Heaven and Hell are also due to this state of self.

'Tat Twam Asi' in definition of GOD as 'Bramah-Vishnu-Maheshwar' isalso what we see in us.Psychological mind as Male-Female has in us as a Child, Learning andCreating with help of 'Sarswati-Bramah'. Then as we are in ourYouth, we Earn and Run our life with the help of 'Laxmi-Vishnu'. Atthe end of life our Old age, Eliminate and Destroy many beliefs withthe help of 'Shakti-Shiv'. Thus we prepare our self for the nextbirth. The Energy, called 'spirit' by many, is indistructible andchange form. We can ralise it and can even see as Vivekananda(nonbeliever of statue) was shown by Guru Ramakrishna(ardent idolworshiper). The idol is the Mirror to see our self !--RegardsSwapan PURKAYASTHA

 

--------------------------------PRIOR POSTING

Dear Sarphod:

I adore your persistence to what you think is right - that is a goodquality to seek truth. At the same time, I am a bit disappointed inits lopsidedness! It is not clear what you want, frankly.

I have two questions for you: Are you afraid of "God"? Do you urgefor "God"?

If "YES" to any of these questions, you have a problem. You can'tstick to your current logical conviction. It is obvious that yourcurrent logical conviction irrespective of its self-proclaimedexcellence is JUST NOT DOING ITS JOB :(. Your logical provess canclaim accolades ONLY IF it removes your fears and quench yourdesires.If not removal, at least a nominal reduction in their intensity iswarranted ... if your intellect is working straight.

If "NO" to any of these questions, I see a bigger problem. Why areyou confusing yourself with these questions. That "NO" becomesmeaningless just because you are incapable of letting the veryquestions go! The very reason you are raising these questions provethat you are infested either by fear or by desire or by bothregarding "God". THAT IS EXCELLENT!

Then, it is "YOUR" primary responsibility to address the same. As Imentioned earlier, your current intellect is incapable of helping youout. Then, you have to make a shift in your thinking to inspect theignorance harbored within. Pardon me for calling it ignorance. But,the fact is ... it is. Inherent fears and desires can never let anindividual happy. They create the turbulence within in terms ofthemselves. The existence of miseries is proof enough that we are notapplying our intellect in the right direction. After all, it iscommon sense that we do everything ONLY FOR ONE REASON - to behappy. I am sure you agree with it.

The question is are you happy with these questions as such or are youreally interested in a possible solution. If you are happy with thesequestions, be happy. You can never get the solution though! If youreally need a solution, QUESTION the very questions. That is the onlyway out left for you to be happy. Do you have any other choice? Ifyou have, please pursue. Being happy is the bottom line of allactions ... being happy ... being happy but nothing else.

Nobody can instruct you what God Is! You have to figure it outyourself.

I don't know who misled you that this or anything specific "is adevine forum" as if anything else is not! If you seek divinity,everything is devine. If not, some may claim "divinity" as if therest is not. Please do not get trapped into such notions ... if youreally want to seek clarity regarding your question. Question yourquestions ... TRUTHFULLY. You will see the end of the tunnel.

Again, PLEASE DO NOT EXPECT OR INSIST FOR EXPLICIT INSTRUCTIONSREGARDING GOD. YOU WILL NOT GET ANY ANSWER ... UNLESSS ... YOU SEE ITWITHIN YOURSELF! The only suggestion I can make is ... look for ITwithin. Because, looking out all these years has seemingly remainedfutile! There is no point in digging into others' psyche when mine isnot receptive enough. If I insist to continue, I can guarantee myselfof more confusion to come!! Because ... GOD cannot be held within any"psyche" as such.

Anyway, just few suggestions to think about ... think about it if youwant ... ONLY IF YOU WANT.

All The Best.

Respects.

Naga Narayana

 

PRIOR POSTINGDear "Sadhaks" (?)

Why my simple questions are not getting answered. Shashikalajeeasked me some questions, instead of replying to me. I , upon theadvice of my Begum Saahiba humbly replied to her. Now instead ofresponding to me, she has given a conversation between a son and hismother. My Begum is insisting to me that I should again and againread that. OK I will do that. But let me answer her anotherquestion. I have not desired to smell "flower of sky" , because itdoes not exist. Sometimes I feel that both my Begum Sahibaa and youSadhaks have lost mind. What a funny question Shashikalajee hasasked. How can I desire or talk or know about a thing which doesn"texist? This is my basic fundamental and solid argument. Vyas N B isgiving indicators which require me to think. I am thinking. But thebest among you is Mike Keenor. He told me to remain solid. Headviced me to remain tenacious, merciless and hang on. I am hangingon. But then why Vineet Sarvottam told me lies? Varun Paprunia gavehim a fitting reply. Varun - you are very good. This Pratap Bhattis rebuking me. Why? What is my fault. On one hand you are simplygiving me round round answers. On other hand you are passingjudgement. Is this a conduct of a sadhak. Please reply to me. Orsay - none of you have capacity to answer my simple questions. MyBegum Sahibaa has already started crying. Have mercy on her atleast. But Mike praised me. He called me "brilliant".

Waiting for answers.

Sarphod Tabalchi---------------------------We all struggle with these questions. The answers I found logical isthis: There is something beyond mind and matter. Some will call thatsomething Omnipotent, Omniscient, Omnipresent. Others will call itrandom nothing. Another question one hears is why do I want to knowThat Something. To Know, or to Control it? Here in lies the paradoxand answer: If it is to know only: He is right there with you,within you: The Life, Love Peace. If it is to control so that wecontrol our surrounding: That is the struggle of Ego. Arjuna had tosee the Universal form to get over the final hurdle.Jay Shree Krishna.

Hemendra Parikh-------------------------------Dear devotees of Lord Krishna,The discussion is interesting. I learned the gita much better afterseeing the life experience of a realized lady, who had darshan ofLord Krishna ( first darshan of Lords feet after chanting a slokafrom 10 th chapter of Gita for 30,000 times continuously for 30days ). Her conversations with the Lord have been recorded inTamil, and can be shared with the group if interested.With kind regards,Sincerely,P.Vivekanandan-------------------------------

Try Brahmacharya ( the vow of celibacy in thought, word and deed, bywhich one attains Self-realisation or reaches Brahman) and you willsee for yourself the value.

The Srutis declare: "Naayam Atma balaheenena labhyah - This Atman isnot attainable by a weak man." In the Gita you willfind: "Yadichhanto brahmacharyam charanti - That desiring whichBrahmacharya is performed" (Chap. VIII-11). "Trividham narakasyedamdvaram nasanamatmanah; kamah krodhastatha lobhastasmad etat trayamtyajet - O Arjuna! Triple is the gate of the hell, destructive ofthe Self; lust, wrath and greed: therefore let man renounce thesethree" (Chap. XVI-21). "Jahi satrum mahabaho kamarupam durasadam -Kill this powerful enemy, passion, by the observance ofBrahmacharya" (Chap. III-43).

If we are determined to attain the goal of life by leading a purelife, we must keep this mind busily engaged in Divine thoughts,concentration, meditation, study and service of humanity.

It is difficult to eradicate lust. But you need not despair even abit. Have faith in God, in His Name and in His grace. Lust cannot becompletely rooted out of the mind except by the grace of the Lord.You are bound to succeed if you have faith in Him. The Divine Graceis needed. God helps those who help themselves.

Until man continues to cling to worldliness, Paramatma cannot begrasped by him.

You can read more about this in the "Easy Steps to Yoga" by SriSwami Sivananda.chirag almoula

--------------------------------PRIOR POSTING

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!Tabalchiji, with all the respect for you and questions, I may pointout that no one can make anyone see anything let alone God if thatperson doesn't want to see. It seems like you may be insistent uponseeing God in the way you want to see.Please forgive me if I am wrong, but as a friend I am saying. Itseems like you may not have read the postings with open mind, withthe desire to know the truth. Open mind doesn't mean accepting, itmeans you must give a fair reading/hearing and then asking pertinentquestions or raise doubts based on what is read. Here your responsesindicate you have decided that God cannot exist for you if youcannot see or have some logic to prove God's existence. One has tosee that "seeing God" means deep understanding of intuitive naturein this context where mind being limited cannot comprehend. It hasto be prepared to be open. Our conditioned mind is incapable ofgrasping truth.Some of us provided solid logic, but it still fell short to make yousee the pointers.I said one cannot say "I don't see God" without knowing what God heis looking that he cannot find. One has to know what one wants tosee, right? One can say "I don't know God, tell me what/where Ishould look, and how to recognize". It is different than show meGod, right?Once again, God is the Conscious/Intelligent Existence as reflectedin our experience of "I am" right now as you read these words. Infirst posting, dialogue was used to illustrate it as a solid proofone cannot deny.There are ways to experience God for which senses-mind-intellect isnot capable like they are for knowing objects. Nevertheless, thereis proof of God more reliable than that.But this point didn't make any impression.I request you with humility to re-read responses again and see whathappens!Namaskar..............Pratap Bhatt-------------------------------Hare Krishna

Okay Mr. Sarphod,

Let's put God's existence out of equation for a moment and onlydiscuss about sample/logics/rationales w.r.t. YOUR existence.

I AM

Well, you don't have any doubt in your existence, right? Your bodyhas changed and it is rapidly changing every second. But Mr.Sarphod, is you also changing with the body? You are certainly notchanging with it because if you were changing then who would haveknown the change in body? You are that changeless element who knowsthe change in body. Isn't it? Childhood, youth, old age are thechanging phases of the body but you are that changeless element whois witness to all these changes. It is a law that only a changelesselement can perceive the ever-changing element. My question - Whatis the basis of your never-changing existence? If you considerbody's existence as your existence then you are defying all logic,because body is changing every second!!!

I and MINE

It is a law that whatever is mine, it is never I. For example youconsider your house, car, wife, children etc. as mine but you neverconsider them as I. But in the case of body you say 'my hands, mylegs, my stomach, my ears, my eyes, my throat etc.' andsimultaneously you also consider it as 'I' e.g. I am not feelingwell. You establish two transversal relationships with the body,that of 'I' and 'MINE'. Whichever thing is mine it is always apart(separate) from you, and that thing which is separate from you, howcan it be I? This body is also apart from you but still you call itas I. Is this logical?

Mr. Sarphod, now I wish to see you. Can you show me yourself???Ohh... please don't show me that body which you claim it as mine. Iwant to see that Mr. Sarphod who claims the body as mine. In otherwords, I want to see that element which you refer to as I?

Before that I am eager to know whether you have ever seen yourself.According to you anything that exists is perceptible. So Mr.Sarphod, with which instrument have you seen yourself?

If you have not seen yourself then, well ..... do you exist ?????

And at last one more question- Whose name is Sarphod - body oryourself?

Mr. Sarphod, with your logics/samples/rationales etc., first prove

1. Your existence.2. The basis of your existence.3. The instrument with which you have seen/felt your existence.

Then we will also discuss about God's existence....

As Sarphodji is contemplating over his existence, in the mean time,those sadhaks whose faith in God has dwindled with his questions,they are requested to read this Sadhaka postingsadhaka/message/2108

Hare KrishnaVarun P. Paprunia-------------------------------

Jai Hanuman

(Shrimad Bhagvad Geeta- Marathi Edition- By Saint Gyaaneshwarji-Chapter 13- Kalyaan- By Narainduttji Gaur )

Jeeva ( J) (We all- as referred in BG 15:7) :

Mom pls tell me , when I was born?

Maya , Mother Nature, Prakrati, Illusion (As referred in BG 7: 13/14)( M ) :

( Irritated) What non sense! Is it some thing to be told? (By a Momto Son?)

J: If mother doesn't tell, who will?

M: How to tell you? I came only after you !

J: Typical Mom ! Means- I came first and then you? Surprising? Isn'tit?

M: You won't understand. Be silent and sleep!

J: Come On ! First me ..! And then You ...!! (How can it be?) Plstell me the story ! Please !!

M: I told you. You won't understand! Many big people even could not.

J: Ok ! Then my Father can let me understand. Take me to Him, please.

M: ( Curtly) Stop this song of Father, Father. Your Father is Fatheronly for the name sake.In fact, I have to do every thing.

J: Does He not do anything?

M: What can He do? He is old, ancient, poor fellow (eternal) ! Thentotally actionless! Absolutely non-doer! Neither hands, nor legs,nor eyes, nor ears! Nothing in fact! Look Kid ! Whatever colour ,form etc of the world which you are seeing is my miracle, my form,my competence, my work ! Ok? Your Father has neither any form, norany beauty. What beauty He can impart to the world?

J: But all say that He is the real Creator. See Mom! Whatever is myFather, He is my Father! Ok? His insult...??

M: Insult! What insult? Whose insult? One who does not have anycaste or creed, any family or varna, any city or village- what canbe His respect or disrespect?

J: How bad He will feel, if He listens to what you are saying?

M: Even if He gets annoyed, what can He do? One who neither moves,nor walks, nor travels, nor laughs, nor cries, nor speaks, neitherany juice, nor any taste, nor any play !!! This entireexhibition/show I run, Dear Son !!

J But out there on Gate (of the circus) His name is written, O Mom !!

M: Ultimately you will take side of your Father only. Afterall youare His son!

J: O Mom of the Universe! Why did not you put name of yours on thefront gate of this Great Circus? ( The world)

M: How to put my name. This is the real trgedy. You won'tunderstand, Son. I, the creator and controller of uncountableuniverses can not do any thing by my name!! (Ramcharitmanas- 5/21/4)

J: Don't be sad and sorry Mom! What is the matter?

M: It is very secret, Son! If by seeing my banner outside the gate,if somebody wants to meet with me, he will be disappointed. Son!Please understand my pain. One is lazy ( does nothing), has noorgans, is actionless- those who want to search such (an element)person , they search Him merely by His name! (Ramcharitmanas-1/26/2). But to me, even when I am controlling entire sentient andinsentient world, if some body wants to search, CANNOT find! Cannotsearch.

J: Why not Mom?

M: (With tears in her eyes) Because, in reality, I don't exist. I amfalse. I am asat. I am non existent. My "not being" is my "being".Whatever is not- I am that. I am no-thing.

J: And whatever is there, that is who? Who is that?

M: He is your Father, Son!

J: (In mind, talking with himself only, Son thinks/says - Hats offto you Mom! When you don't exist, then this is the scene of theworld that even Lord Shiva , Brahma are afraid of you -Ramcharitmanas 7/71/8- had you existed "actually" Mom then.....)

O my No-thing Mom! When you don't even exist , then on whose poweryou run this circus called the world?

M: What to tell you, Son? I can tell you only this much that, ofWhose a mere flicker of eyebrow, I do rule the uncountableuniverses, I can't dare/ don't have courage to face Him. I do runthis circus only on His strength.

J : O My Unconquerable Mom! My hundreds of Pranaams to you. Blessme , O Mom! So that I may get my Father!!

While bowing and doing Pranaams to his mother, Jeeva becametranquilised and then in the background divine music played-

"MAAMEVA YA PRAPADYANTE, MAYAMETAM TARANTI YE "

(BG 7:14)

He was He only!

Namaste Jee.

Jee JeeShashikala--------------------------------Shri Hari-

My dear Sarphodji,

A few points to consider, I have said I have been touched by theDivine,(just one way of putting it), such Grace is life changing, Icould be lying or be mad,(I tell the truth), but I know just byreading the things fellow Sadhaks have written that I AM NOT ALONE.Some people come to Bhagwan with ease and joy others take the path offire so to speak, (the hard miles).

In the west there is an expression,'The Dark Night of The Soul', andyes! If it is known in the west it is most absolutely known in theIndian Traditions.(I think Arjuna's predicament reflects that),I willstay using the terminology to which I am most familiar.You say you are deserted, you are not deserted, the Brethren have notdeserted you, and in the Darkest Moment of the Soul, there is a lightshining, that light comes from 'That', which will wash away youtears, 'That' which will break your heart so that you can bemended. Your arguments are not solid dear Brother, not to those thathave felt the embrace of The Beloved. Your inflexibility, combinedwith your determined search, may well introduce you to 'The DarkNight...', the very ONE you rebuked the most, will be the one thatrescues you. I speak from experience not from books.

With Respect and Divine Love,

Mike Keenor

 

PRIOR POSTINGHari Om

If sadhaks can concentrate on giving short pointers / rationalewhich establishes the existence of Supreme Power it will help allin being definitive, have reference material and it will alsostrengthen faith. Ego, Intellect and Mind don't let you agree thateasily. And who knows who may need in the coming turbulent era ofKaliyug, that is lacking in faith and belief. Let us get united.

From discourses of Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj (Taat Shree), whom Ihave solely relied on for a number of years -

Every human being wants the following:

1) To "live for ever". This is desire for SAT (existence). Fear ofdeath is the indicator of that desire.2) To know every thing. No one wants to be unknowlegeable. This isdesire for CHIT (Knowledge).3) To be happy. No one wants to be unhappy. This is desire forANANDA.

Any doubt Mr Sarphod? Now if there is a desire then the element tofulfill that desire must also be there. There must be some one /some element which enables you to "live for ever", to be all knowingand to be ever blissful. Had such an element not existed, we wouldnot have had the desire for the same.

Paramatma is SAT-CHIT-ANANDA.(Sachchidananda)

Raam! Raam!! Raam!!!

To be continued.

Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B------------------------------

Dear Tabalchi ji,

According to J. Krishnamurti "modern so called educated" people wanta little bit of intellectual amusement and therefore they indulge inmeaningless discussions about God and such matters. God cannot bediscussed in this manner, because That Absolute Truth (giveIt/Her/Him any name) is beyond description.Your all the six questions are like the enquiries of a "fullstomach" tourist without an iota of appetite going through the menu,or reading it aloud with his co-friends. If you are really thirstyyou will not indulge in such childish questions about water, butwill try your best to drink it.

I suggest you read Uncommon Wisdom and other books by Dr Capra (aphysic scientist) who has quoted from our Sanskrit literature aboutGod, or read A Brief History of Time by Hawking Stephens (well knownexpert on dark hole and universe) to know the concept of time andspace. At least do go through some writings by Nobel laureate DrEdington (a scientist). Only then, you can be a little serious aboutexploring the great Absolute Truth. Become "jyan-vijyan-triptah" andonly then we can walk together on this spiritual quest.

Regards,Suresh C. Sharma------------------------

Sir,You are asking the oldest question ever being asked. See aroundyou, a sperm has made you upto approximately 6 feet. Who designedthis project and process. Your father and mother only are tools.Inquire within and get the answer.

surender syal--------------------------------

Mitro,Why has this God become famous as "HE" why not "she" or "IT"or "Nothing"? Today's generation will not believe in gibberishbakwaas . The paradox is every religion, every saint says that Godis ONE. But even within Hindus philosophy we see thousands of gods(many names and forms). If God is One then why all the differencesand the fights? How come? Ramchander Homma

------------------------------I agree with Luca Brasi that I should be fairly replied. I haveasked a lot of questions. I want proof/logic and I want to know Howis that Supreme. I want sample. I want rationale. My Begum Saahibaaalso told me that I am head breaker like your Shashikaljee told me.But I never agreed with her so far. I never admitted this version.I am not head or skull breaker. My name suggests that I am mindfixer. Any way how the name matters? I am what I am. I accept myparents because even if I dont remember my birth, they rememberthat. They know that I am their child. I can see them. I can feelthem. I can experience them. I can recognise them. That is why theyare my parents. Where is God? How can I accept God on the groundsthat since I did not know my parents at the time of birth and Iaccepted hence I should accept God also. Children are children. Theydont understand. But I am adult. I understand. My Begum Sahibaacould not satisfy me and hence she asked me to get in touch with youShe said you will satisfy me.I checked with her that I am notsatisfied even after, because I have MOST SOLID arguments, thenwhat? Even my father deserted me because he could not satisfy me.She said such situation will not arise. If I cant see , I cantaccept. Prove to me how one can accept without seeing or feeling orexperiencing or logic or rationale or basis. At least I should feelor experience. Even if my parents were dead at the time of birth,still I would accept that because how can I come without them onthis earth. What is your answer? Pratap or Vineet or Mike orShashikala. My Begum Sahibaa said few things regarding observationsof Vineet also. Please reply- Sadhaks of this selfproclaimed "Divine" site. Dont go by my name. Even my BegumSaahibaa complains regarding my name. What can I do regarding myname Jee?

Sarphod Tabalchi

PRIOR POSTINGHare Krishna

Sarphodji,

Not only can Parmatma be an individual he can also be a fish(Matsya-avatar), a tortoise (Kachchap-avatar), a pig (varaha-avatar),a half lion-half man (Narsimha-avatar) and what not!!!According to Gita, not only can a devotee see God but also know Himand also enter into Him.

Arjuna saidO universal form, O thousand-armed Lord, I wish to see You in Yourfour-armed form, with diadem on your head with club, wheel, conch andlotus flower in Your hands. I long to see You in that form. (11.46)

Sanjaya saidThe Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krishna, having spoken thus toArjuna, displayed His real four-armed form and at last showed Histwo-armed form, thus encouraging the fearful Arjuna. (11.50)

Lord Krishna said:My dear Arjuna, this form of Mine you are now seeing is verydifficultto behold. Even the demigods are ever seeking the opportunity to seethis form, which is so dear.Neither by the study of Vedas, nor by penance, nor by charity, noreven by rituals can I be seen in this form (with four-arms), as Youhave seen Me.O valiant Arjuna, through single-divided devotion, however, I can beseen in this form (with four-arms), known in essence and even enteredinto.My dear Arjuna, he who performs all his duties for Me, depends on Me,is devoted to Me, has no attachment, and is free from malice towardsall beings, reaches Me. (11.52-55)

Please give special attention to the last 2 verses. This will answeryour question of knowing and seeing God.

Yes, I have also read the same in Swamiji's book which your wife hasstated. I consider it to be true because I believe in Swamiji'swords.

Hare KrishnaVarun P. Paprunia------------------------------

Hari Om

No! Sarphodji. Those who want to learn should read carefully andshould learn also to be patient. All sadhaks upto now have givenexcellent observations. I have also given you logics/pointers andwillcontinue to give you till you get satisfied. I agree with Luca thatthere must be logics/rationale existing. It is another matter, as MrVineet stated, that they are pointless once you proceed ahead. Butstill questions are questions and your insistence , though, odd butstill should be respected. Your "Begum Sahibaa" appears to havedirected herself to peace. I wish you understood the hidden affectionin the in the message of Mike Keenor to you. Here are morelogics/pointers to you:

3. In life, we always find a higher person than ourselves. In everyfield a higher person than one is existing. See around you, you willfind this statement to be true. Even the President of USA can not say"I am the Highest". Always a better /higher person than you isexisting. Now where does this "highness" end. If there is sense ofhighness , then there must be an element which is "highest". God isthat element. God is the HIGHEST.

4. You always need some "shelter" to survive. In the childhood youneed shelter of parents, teacher, etc. Then of education, ability,wife, money, home, employers, what not. In old age, you need wife,children, stick, doctor, medicines, health etc Sujects change but notthe need for shelter.. If there is consistent need for shelter , thenthere must be an element existing of whose shelter is the ultimateshelter. Is not it Mr Sarphod. ( You should argue on such inprinciplepoints. Check up with you Begum Sahibaa.) ? If you are thirsty ,theremust be water existing on the planet. Now when you need always someshelter or other, then there must be an element which can bedescribedas " Highest Shelter available "! God is "PARAM ASHRAYA DATA" Giverof that shelter. If you take shelter of God, no other shelter will benecessary,

5. We always want to be perfect. There is no doubt on that. But thereis also no doubt regarding the fact that we err. In fact "to err ishuman" -this saying is prevalent on this planet from time immemorial.Now if there is a desire to become perfect then there must exist anelement which is most perfect. Did you ever hear that there was adifference of a fraction of a second even in timings of Sun rise andSun set? Is not everything moving to the perfection? Who can be moreperfect except God. God is the MOST PERFECT.

To be continued till you say "I am satisfied"

As regards your observation that "Nature" also creates/controls-answer is that whether you believe that nature has "knowledge"? Ifyes, then that nature is our God. In our religion ( I don't know yourreligion) SHAKTI is God also. But if according to you , the INERTNATURE has no knowledge, then you have to accept God. Can inertnaturetake care of so many souls, operate Law of Karma, provide food to somany creatures? If Yes- I don't mind calling that Nature to be God.After all it is a matter only of "terminology". If no then you mustaccept that IF THERE IS DESIRE / NEED IN YOU TO BE PERFECT OR TO TAKESHELTER OR TO SEEK HIGHNESS then there exists an element to fulfilthat desire. That element is called " GOD/ PARAMATMA" . Logical ?Doesit appeal to your logic Mr Sarphod? Check up with your Begum Sahibaaand come back. Your arguments shall exhaust, not our arguments- besure on this. After all you are on GT Site !

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B-------------------------------

Dear Sarphod:

Wonderful! I like your guts to put this question across!! I wasstartled to start with and even alarmed as I contemplated "thanksfor triggering the turbulence from which proceeds the peace asalways."

Son goes to father and asks, "Father, what is God?" Fatheranswered, "Whatever drives your life, whatever sustains your lifeand whatever absorbs your life is verily God my child. Think aboutIt!" The father was wise enough not to instruct what God is. The sonpromptly contemplates in what his father said and came back, "Father,fear drives all the lives. Fear sustains all the lives. Fear absorbsall the life. Therefore, fear should be the god." Fatherremarks, "Good job! Keep thinking." The son not knowing whether hisrevelation was conclusive or not continues to contemplate. Son comesback to father and declares, "Father, desire drives all the lives,desire sustains all the lives and desire absorbs all the lives.Therefore, the desire should be the god." Father remarks again, Goodjob! Keep thinking." The son does not feel the conclusiveappreciation regarding the god - is it fear or desire? He continuesto contemplate and realizes that, the happiness drives all thelives. Happiness sustains all the lives. And, happiness absorbs allthe lives. Therefore happiness should be the god.

Now he does not go back to his father as he has already felt thewisdom behind his father's remarks. God is not something that can betaught to, or preached to or transferred to anybody. It is thenotion within ... it is the imagination within ... it is thedeliberation within ... it is the understanding within ... it is theappreciation within ... IT IS THE PRESENCE WITHIN in its core. Theson, accepting the challenge from his father to use the body, sensesand mind blessed to him, continues to contemplate.

He has seen the driving force, sustenance strength and absorptionpower in the fear, in the desire as well as in the happiness. Hesees that the three divinities of creation, sustenance,andabsorption transcend the boundaries of his existential fears,desires and happiness altogether integrating the whole universe ofknowns as well as unknowns - manifested as well as unmanifested -mitigating the differences that were once prominent amongst thethree phases of life - fear, desire and happiness.

Then starts another dilemma - who is the god amongst these threedivinites that seem to determine what life is? Driving Force orSustenance Strength or Absorption Power? Again, he approaches hisfather, the wisdom established within to contemplate on the dilemma.

The driving force comes first to claim the unclaimed post of TheGod. On ruthless examination, the driving force starts wonderingaloud that it itself should have been driven by something else. Thenew driving force wonders the same and so on. The driving force digsup an infinite legacy of its own kind beneath lost in the oblivionof the past. It returns back in frustration not withstanding whatthe driving force could really be.

The absorption power jumps in next to claim the still unclaimed postof The God. Again, the wisdom starts the same gruelling scrutiny.The power under sharp vigilence starts whithering away to wonder ifit absorbs everything there should be something to absorb itself.The new absorbing power wonders the same way and so on. Theabsorption power piles up an infinite heirarchy of its own kindabove lost in the oblivion of the future. It returns back infrustration not withstanding what the absorption power could everbe.

The empty throne is still awaiting to be filled. The sustenancestrength walks to claim the post in confidence. The valiant wisdomdoes its job with no resistance subjecting the life sustenancepower in suspension of its examination. The sustencance strengthwhich provides strength to all the life around starts wondering whatis the source of its own strength and sustenance. The new source ofthe strength resounds the same wonder what could be the source ofstrength. The sustenance strength keeps jumping from on fold toanother all around the universe that is within its control to seekitself folding itself in infinitude lost in the vast presence. Itreturns back in frustration not withstanding what the sustenancestrength could ever be.

Seeing the crest-fallen champions of life not realizing their owntrue nature around, the throne of The God starts fading intosilence. The wisdom starts wondering in itself. Is it not thedriving force as well as the sustenance strength as well as theabsorption power all the time all around? Suddenly, the demarkationbetween the three divinities that was once so thick and opaquestarts giving away to reveal the force, strength and power ofcreation, sustenance and absorption in itself and hence in everything that is perceieved ever.

The realized wisdom gets back and declares. Never ever ignore yourfears. Never ever ignore your desires. Never ever ignore yourhappiness. Ever be with your fears, desires and happiness as youare. Then you see the unison amongst your fears, desires and joysand hence in all your emotions, relations and existence within aswell as around. Then you see all the boundaries separating yournotions dissolve in the very wisdom where you dwell upon. Being whatyou are in spite of your apparent variances of life naturallytranscends all the barriers built by your cognition acrosseverything to reveal THE ONE everywhere and everywhence. Then thevery post of God does not appear to be real anymore which seemed themost troublesome question to start with.

God remains evasive till you drift away from what you are in vainsearching whatever IT could be! Therefore, my dear friend, betterpause in your frenzy search and look around and look within … bewhat you are. Then God is everything … not just a notion ... notjust a faith ... not just a doubt ... but, everything ... EVERYTHINGWITH NO EXCEPTION. If you remain what you are, IT is all-inclusive.If you attempt to search for it, IT becomes all-exclusive. In otherwords, IT is EVERYTHING in your presence; and IT is NOTHING in yourperception.

Respects.

Naga Narayana--------------------------------Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!Let us address one aspect of Tabalchiji's issues with responses ofsadhakas received so far!To be able to see God, one needs to recognize God upon seeinganything, right? If one says I don't see God, one is looking for whatone "thinks" God is in whatever one is looking at. For God to be"that" it will be very very limiting to God, because what we think isso limited even if it is some grand image of God. That is notlogical, right?Now when Swamiji says Goenkaji and Poddarji had darshana of God, whatdoes it mean?It means the deep understanding of what God is and subsequentrealization that "my God, there is nothing else but only God IS inthe disguise of the Cosmos" that sees through that individual.The individual's vision has changed entirely, where he/she sawobjects of the world before, now he sees only Divinity in the sameforms. It is our experience that what we believe out there, we tendto see only that through our being closed minded. Similarly when weunderstand God, this "Understanding" opens up the very mind who seesGod everywhere, individual is merely a channel God is using.Other aspects of issues will see later....Namaskar............Pratap Bhatt

-------------------------Shree Hari-

Sarphodji,

Great! You are still questioning brilliant!I have read the responses from our brethren, great beauty full ofdivine love. But I will stick to the hared nosed roll,(look past itdear friend).If someone asked me to show her an oak tree, and I gave her an acorn,what would she say I wonder? Of course the blueprint for the wholetree is in the acorn, one also one wonders, did the first oak treehave an acorn or the first acorn have an oak tree?Question 6 if resolved is the platform upon which all the otherquestion can be answered it seems to me.I can only tell you how I came to be touched be The Divine, that wasby my search into paradoxes, like the universe, like the acorn.I once mentioned a man I met in unusual circumstance. It was about3amin a large air traffic control room, very few controllers in the roomat that time. I was waiting to get clearance to work on a console(todo annual technical checks). There across the room was thiscontroller, He had his headset on,(with a long lead), he wasperforming asanas, (within the restriction), "trying to stay awake?"Iasked, "no he boomed", we started to talk. We had 'Much' in common,wedeveloped a dialog from then on , it was he who suggested I readBhagavad Gita,(I humbly suggest you do also).He once said to me with his booming humorous voice, "Mike if peoplecould her us they would think we're 'Lunatics'.What we had in common at the root, was our hunger for the truth, andthe courage, 'to ride the tiger".We were an unlikely pair from a world view, he was a Sri Lankan, meanAnglo Celt, especially if one could here us talking, but we werebrothers of the spirit.There is much I could talk of, but I must bow to the respectedmoderator.

With Respect and Divine Love,

Mike Keenor-Mr Sarphod ! So you are a male as well as married ! Very good Jee !

It is a good habit to act in accordance with advice your Begum. Howdid she leave you alone? Do you have books of Swamiji RamsukhdasjiMaharaj at your home? Your “Begum†had those books according toyou.Did you read them? Or your Begum only reads them? By the way didyou ever think about or did you ever have a desire to smell “flowerof sky†? Why did you not think about flower of sky or desired tosmell it ? Reply. This is a question to you. Also reply if you alwaysbelieve only after “seeing†?

Let us know as to how you can get satisfied according to you?. Whatmethodology suits your mind.? How do you generally feel regardingthis world,mind, intellect, body etc etc ? How according to you suchabig world is operating ? Do you think there are some laws governingthis world? Keep also giving your observations , counter arguments onEACH AND EVERY response which is given to you. Otherwise how will weknow whether the cure has taken place? Understood? You can consultyour Begum also before replying to my queries. Always tell us whatyour Begum told you and what is your own observation. Why don’t youtell your Begum also to become member and start Satsanga? Will thatnot be better? What is her kind name, Jee?

Namaste Jee.

Jee JeeShashikalaDear Sadhakas, Namaste!Another aspect of issues raised by Tabalchiji can be answered basedonwhat sadhakas already have echoed in their responses.The most important thing is to know that God is not "something","somewhere" and "some times". It is at the core of our being, anintimate experience which is The Knowingness without anything known.In otherwords, God cannot be known as another limited object,nevertheless, is known as "knowingness" in us by virtue of justbeing.For example, if someone were to ask you, can you show me Love, Peace,Compassion, Beauty, Goodness etc "out there"? You cann't! They areexperiences within us that we attribute to things/situations etcoutside which may have triggered them. Some philosopher rightly said"From the beginning, not a thing is!" Please, please, see the truthofthis. We are connected to the world only through Being Conscious ofsomething or other which we conceptualize as subjectexperiencer(mind-body), and objects experienced, both thought asseparate. Such division is not experiential.Just as these experiences are not seen "out there", but are truelyhappening in our consciousness, God cannot be seen, as separate fromConsciousness.Sun, for example, is nothing but the experience of light and heat,conceptualized as "Sun" out there, for practical purpose. This isalsotrue for all apparant objects of the world.God or Consciousness or Atman, are also such conceptual words of themost intimate Wordless Experience! They are good pointers though!When people engage in services to help others who are victims ofdisasters, diseases, violence, wars, terrorism etc etc who motivatestheir actions? Unconditional Love and Goodness of the heart! Peoplewho help to preserve natural environment, forests, animals, etc etcare also inspired by the same Love and Goodness!Can we not call Unconditional Love and Goodness of the heart God?Are those who bring such disasters to "apparant others" also God, ifall is God?They are also, yes, but unfortunately "they" have not understood yetthat they are!In God's world, only God exists playing "others", so who does what towhom?Try doing evil acts after understanding deep within that all of us,nature included, together, not individually, are God! One cannot!

Namaskar...........Pratap Bhatt

-PRIOR POSITINGDear Sadhak,Excellent explanation has been given by sadhak Pratapji....Excellent!If the parents donot know GOD how can they teach the kids?Swamiji says if something is lying in darkness we can take a deepakwith us to see it but to see a deepak(lamp) we donot need anotherdeepak. Same way the objects of this whole worlds can beseen/experienced through the "SELF" but to know this SELF we donotneed anything from the world( mind/body/intellect etc.) Only SELFknows it SELF.1. Where is God I have never seen Him?He is not HE, He is "I". When we can see/know who am I we cansee/know who is God.Indeed, You alone know Yourself by Your own potencies, O origin ofall, Lord of all beings, God of gods, O Supreme Person, Lord of theuniverse! Ch10:152. Who has seen Him?All realized people have known HIM.Some claim that they have seenHIM too.Swami Vivekananda asked this question to everyone he met-Have youseen God ? All answers negative except Ramkrishna Paramhansa.He said-"Yes I have seen God as clearly as I am seeing you right now."Listening to this Narendra became his disciple.3. How is He?With a single fragment of Myself I pervade and support this entireuniverse.Ch10:424. If I dont know how do I accept?Then go ahead follow the path shown to us by Swamiji or any realizedsoul, and know Him first, then accept.5. God is a term coined by elders to put moral shackles over us sothat we may indulge in goodness.What's wrong with that ? Accept God ,be righteous and be Arjuna ordonot accept Him, be Duryodhana - choice is yours.6. There has to be some basis for his existence? What are the logicswhich point towards the existence of God? From where to pick thethread?Start with meditation and Gita. Follow the path shown by Him in Gita-Karma Yoga, Gyaan Yoga or Bhakti Yoga. Establish yr self in YOGA.....

No one can force any one to believe. Kids learn by imitation. Leadyr own life according to Dharma,and kids will pick it up.Beforegiving them tatva Gyaan(absolute knowledge),its better to sit withthem and watch Ramayana, Krishna, Mahabharata and let them learn bythe character of our Sagun Sakaar Bhagwaan(God with Forms). If theycan learn from Rama or Krishna, they will be on right path and willget their realization at their own speed.with lots of Love,a sadhikaSadhna Karigar

--------------------------------Jai Hanuman

Oye What a question Jee!!. As good as the name of thequestioner!! "Sarphod" in Hindi means skull breaker ! "Tablachi"means he who plays treble. Unique Jee !! Namaste Sarphodji !!Welcome Jee ! There is music everywhere ! Who kept such a classicname Jee ? Father? OK, pick the thread from father only.

How do I accept if I don't know? Accept just as you accepted someone to be your father without knowing anything about him. Don't sayplease- "that children now a days need more than belief to accept".That, I am afraid, is not as classic a statement as is even yourkind name. Fact is that children practice only belief and solidbelief. They are masters of belief - and teachers of entire humanityon this subject of belief. Poor adults need proof. What kind ofproof was solicited by you in accepting some one to be your fatheror some name to be mine or for that purpose by "the children of nowa days"- say son of Sarphod Tablachi, if any ??

Do you "know" as to who is your father and who is your mother? Whatproof or rationale you can give to support your acceptance of Mr Xas your father?

You asked "from where to pick the thread". I reply to you that youpick the thread from yourself and your Dear Father. Come On !

Reply now! Argue !!

Namaste Jee

Jee JeeShashikala-------------------------------Mr.Pratapji Bhatt has explained the existance of God beautifully.Itis very much in sync with Sri Sri Paramhansa Yogananda's explanationin his books-"Autobiography of a yogi" and "Man's eternal quest"which i have read. Also the story quoted by mahalaksmiji perfectlydescribes how to know God.He is all knowing and yet unknown.He isthe Devine Intelligence that governs all that is known to us.God isindescribebable.He can only be felt in the depths of a pure soul.Ami Chhowala

--------------------------------I still remain unsatisfied in this "divine" forum. How and whyParamatma can not be an individual ? Is there nothing in yourscriptures like Gita which says that a devotee can also "see" God ?My Begum Sahiba states that she read from a book of your SwamiRamsukhdasji that Jai Dayal Goenka and Hanuman Poddarhad "darshanas" of God. Was His statement right or your referenceof good Swami is right? Why do you say that God can not be known?How then the desire to know can be fulfilled? Whether I need aninstruction manual or not is not the focal point, in fact, to befair to me, answer to my questions in simple and convincing manneris focal point! None of the "sadhaks" are convincing so far. Iasked from where to pick the thread? The responses are unclear andincomplete.

Mr Mike ! Incomplete, was your answer. If you believe you were likeme in the past, then make me like you in the present. Is that not adivine task? Is that not the role of this forum? Logic must exist.Pointers must be there. Knowledge cant be beyond itself. What elsewe are doing at present except meeting?

Mr Vyas - When Your so called " Nature" made oceans, Sun Moon etcand when Nature is supreme then where is the question of God? Whycant Fire/ Ocean/etc are called God ? If yes, then how God isbeyond knowledge? How God can not be seen as stated by Mr PratapBhatt or by Vineet Sarvottam ?

"Sadhaks" - My Begum Sahibaa directed me to you people to satisfymy knowledge quest ! I expected better as I am hungry for answers.

Sarphod Tabalchi--------------------------------Such a question can only arise from those who consider gross body asreal self and not the outer sheath of immortal "real self" whichcontains the apriori knowledge.

They see God every day but do not recognise THEE. The Universal Godis Tri-Ani-Pada- three bodies in One i.e. gross, subtle and divine.Since the entire Brahamad is God, His gross body consists of "Sunand Moon His eyes, firmament his middle body and earth as His Feet"and His Head is in Heaven. Thus entire Brahmand is God. Most of thepeople who find gross body as real, want to imagine and visulaiseGod as a human being forgetting that human beings who live on thisearth are "Thy" tiny living cells. We have several billions livingcells in our gross body, can any living cell of our body tell who weare?

But those who find human soul as "real self" have no difficulty inknowing God. His divine body is the Omniscient Supreme Soul(Parmatma) and His subtle body "Mahadeva" is omnipotent SupremeSpirit prevalent in all animate and inanimate life/things. Hisspirit is found in Shuniya (cosmic void) of all kind of matterconsisting of atoms with unsuspected vitality. Because of His spiritprevalent in shuniya, matter is not inert.

Since Man is born in the image of God, human beings are also tri-ani-pada. Immortal soul resides in our divine body, spirit resides inour subtle body and gross instruments in our material body. Thosewho consider material gross body as the real self will always finddifficult to know formless and ineffable universal God.

Incidentally formeless and ineffable Universal God is Brahma- namederived from Brahmand and other gods in human form are Iswaras.Iswaras are not the gods of entire mankind.with regards,Prem Sabhlok

--------------------------------Dear sarphod,

God is in nature,he can only be felt.His power is dwellingeverywhere in the nature in the form of cosmic vibratioins .If wecan tune our mind with the same frequency by way of sadhana we canfeel the godliness of the nature.How a sperm can create a body withlife is the proof of the supernatural power of the god. So far weare only establishing the things which are existing, but we areunable to establish about the source of the existence.Our ultimate goal our of life is to reuntite ourselves with thenature from where we have come.Nothing extra to be thought aboutgod. Living close to the nature is living near god. But the sensesattached to our body always act against our realisationprocess.controling the senses is the biggest challenge of our life.Let us teach our children about righteous way of living ,thinknaturally and live naturally.

with regardsRamana kothuri

------------------The questions of Mr Sarphod Tabalchi are basic questions. I toodont believe that the Supreme Power would not leave any pointers orlogics of His existence. From where to pick the thread ? I dontagree with Mr Sarvottam that God can not be seen by His belovedones.. There has to be nothing which is beyond the powers ofSupreme. One principle came from Mike's narration and Mr Vyas'message that before "big bang" too something existed or that ifthere is creation then there must be a creator. But how that isexclusive prorogative of God only ? Creativity is universal symptomand authority. Spiders are also creators as per Mike Keenor. Pleaseelaborate with reference to Sarphod's questions. What about fiveelements? Are they creators? Are not these elements playing thetransformation game? I think more serious and direct discussions arewarranted on the subject, not just belief stricken answers. Firstthe logics/rationales have to be exhausted.

Luca Brasi----------------------------

Jai Kali Mata

What is meant by "No one knows about time!!!" Also, I am unclear asto how this is relevant to the questions asked? Is this idea abouttime, emanated out of teachings of Shraddheya Swamiji referred byhim? Kindly clarify !

Bandook Singh

--------------------------------PRIOR POSTING

RESUBMITTED WITH SOME CORRECTIONS

Shree HariRam Ram

You have asked -

1) Where is God, I have never seen Him?Answer: Paramatma is not an individual that you or any one cansimply see. Existence - IS-ness (sattaa maatre) has been given thename Paramatma. Otherwise there is no name for that Existence or allNames are only Paramatma's (Supreme Consciousness's) Names.

2) Who has seen Him?Answer: Paramatma has not been seen by anyone to date and in futuretoo Paramatma will not be ever seen. Shraddhey Swamiji has statedthat Paramatma can be believed, not known, nor seen. Beyond thiswhatever anyone says, is questionable.

3) How is He?Answer: How, where, when, what, why, such questions regardingParmatma are pointless. That which cannot be known, it cannot bedescribed at all.

4) What are you able to know "Time" (samay). This question has beenasked regarding time (whose beginning and end is unknown to us). Itis not a question about the watch or the interval. It is not onlyyou, but no one understands anything about "time". They can saynothing about time. Then why do you believe in time? Similarlybelieve and accept Paramatma, it will be nothing but gain.

5) This same work is also performed by men through establishment oflaws. Just as all do not believe in the law, similarly, everyonecontinues to speak and share for correcting one's foolishness, andaccording to one's own convenience and conformance giving thattattva a "form". You too can speak about the same as well.

6) 'Existence' itself is 'Paramaatmaa'. Where can any supportivearguments and evidence exist to establish the existenceof 'Existence' (named Paramaatmaa)? Then where is one to get thesupport of this essential elemental belief 'ASTITTVA'? Reasoning-deliberation-discussion (tark), proof-evidence (pramaan) can be ofthat thing which we know. But Paramatma is not known and cannot everbe known, then this reasoning and seeking evidence is not inconformance to that reasoning.

7) Do you want Paramatma? or do you want an instruction manual oran aphorism (sutra) to grab hold of Paramatma? Don't get caught upin the vicious cycle of trying to find an instruction manual.Leaving the search, become engaged in "Chup Saadhan" (EffortlessAwareness, Discipline of Silence). All quest, and inquiry will bequietened, will become still.

Please kindly forgive any limitations in the expression / wordsused.

Vineet Sarvottam--------------------------

Hari Om

How to know what is beyond knowledge - is the moot question.

Logic/Rationale !! Proof !!! Sample !! Consider the following:

1 .Whatever we are able to see on this earth there is always acreator /manufacturer - be it an allpin, pen, table, house, machine,house, bed, watch, pen, paper, cloth or aircraft. Anything visible.Then there should be creator of oceans, fire, air, mountains, earth,Sun. Moon, stars also !

God is the creator of all. - CREATOR

2. Whatever thing which moves , be it car, aircraft, bicycle,machine, computer, - there is always a controller thereof. Earthalso moves. Sun/Moon also move. Oceans remain in their limits. Sunrises and sets perfectly without fail. There must be a controller ofthem also!

God is the controller of all- CONTROLLER

Q BUT A HUMAN BEING ALSO CREATES ! WHAT IS SO IMPORTANT ABOUT IT ?

Ans A human being cannot "create" anything! It is only "nature"which creates! You can only change the shape thereof. You can covertgold into ornaments or iron into sword or utensil, but you can'tcreate gold or iron ! Only nature provides that. You can mix two ormore elements, formulate, change shape only. You can create . Youcan "discover" only.

To be continued.

Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B-------------------------Kindly read bertrand russelAranha Roy

---------------------------Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!Let us continue further on the subject and build on what sadhakashave said.Please, it may sound too intellectual, but it is not! It may humbleus!Consider this: If we need to know/study any object, the object hasto exist inthe first place.Even if we cannot know the object, we always know it exists. Thisknowing of anexistence is prior to the knowledge of its nature, attributes,function etc.The Universe is a collection of objects, and can be said to be oneExistencefundamentally. Individual objects within it are individualexistences localizedin space and time over which they exist, and change to other forms,continuingthe existences.When we say Universe we mean the Existence only. Even the wordUniverse pointsto the Existence first. How do we know such Existence itself? Onlyby beingaware/cognizant of it, no other way. So the Existence is awarenessof Existence.To see what is prior to such Existence, there has to be Awareness toknowwhether or not such Existence IS. Thus Awareness as Existence has tobebeginningless! What is after the Existence, non-existence? no,because to sayit, there has to be Awareness of non-existence. If there isAwareness ofnon-existence, IS-ness is established. Thus that which IS, theExistence(withoutdivision into many objects), is eternally free of time and spacecontaining allobjects(names/forms) in time and space by creating mind and endowingit withthis ability in terms of thoughts/feelings. Gita in 2:16 says thereal neverceases to be.Such Awareful Existence has to be most Powerful, Intelligent,Beautiful, full ofLove and Blissful which is our experience. Can we not call this God?God means Such Intelligence as seen through those who serve, and loveunconditionally, those who fight for Dharma, the righteousness, andthose whopreach God's message!Evil actions come out from not realizing the Truth of EternalOneness, GOD!Namaskar.............Pratap Bhatt

 

----------------------------My answer is simply to a question which has been indirectlyasked: "Why can't I see Him?"Because He is the Seer. You are what you are looking for. It issubjective awareness.The problem lies with the word 'God' because we then suppose adistinct being like a tribal deity. No, it is Awareness, Supernal-consciousness. This is the Vedantic way. Find out who you reallyare, not how others see you, but from your subjective perspective,and you'll find what you're looking for.Rishi Handa

----------------------------Wonderful expression by Pratap (Bhatt) Bhai

Further, a simple but serious exercise could help in understandingthis.....Sarphodji, ask yourself " who is asking these questions?""Who wants to know God?" ....and wait for the answer....see what comes from deep inside.....

but you have to have patience.....and keep asking/repeating thequestions....In fact when you come across any such question, ask yourselfwho is this who wants to know this, who is asking the question?....

and wait for the answers and experience that follows.......Best wishesSushil Jain

--------------------------------I am a believer of God. Like one person said in the e-mail below, Iwent through that 'show me God to believe' stage when I was around22 years - 26 years. I was God lover before and again lover now. Ido not really know and I do not think with my limited ablity I canever know. At the same time I am not blind follower too. I am opento all these 6 questions coming from a logical person because I hadthem before too and have them now too. Before - with doubt, now -with wonder and amazement.

Knowing God is a long journey. I am on the journey, I beleive I amgradually understanding the divine concept. I am understanding themthrough others, specially our ancestors, Indian scriptures. Thereare great concepts, ideas and explanations, there are trash alsoamongst them. I am amazed at the power of those ideas andexplanations. They attempted volumes and spent 100s of years to findGod and explain the divinity. Can I really understand all this in mylife? I doubt, which is why its a journey for me. Can I see God? Itdepends on. I feel divinity in some great people, in their ideas forhumanity - around me.

OK, when somebody asks the question 'show me God', what they areasking us is 'show me Jesus, Show me Shiva or show me Vishnu'. Idoubt if any one has seen God in these forms. Unless the divinepower appears so for any. As for God in its full form - Can Iimagine the distance between the Earth and the nearest star (AlphaCentauri - about 4 light years away). I cannot imagine thatdistance - however logically I think. Can I see God then - which isfull of this universe? Impossible to imagine. Then how can I seeGod, unless God willingly appears to me.

My dear friend, answers to those 6 questions need volumes ofexplanation or simply experiecing of the divine power - depending onwhere you stand on the quest for God. Its a journey, so pleasediscuss with people who have done the research (of your 6 questionsbefore) and experience the facts yourself. You still go through theoscillations of belief and disbeliefs, but if your quest is sincereyou will start seeing light at the end of tunnel.

The above does not give straight answers to even one of yourquestions. So thanks for your time, if at all you read through thisuntil now.

Venu Gopal--------------------------------

PRIOR POSTINGI will come at these questions in a hard nosed manner, maybe I amblessed as I too waved aside religions when younger but traveled fullcircle to The Beloved, who I dearly love with my absolute being.

Question 6: There has to be some basis for his existence? What arethe logics which point towards the existence of God? From where topick the thread?O.K. I would ask the skeptical young, (I will call him S. ), tell meS. how did this Godless Universe begin? He may be a brilliantphysicist, good chance though, regardless S will start to talk aboutthe 'big bang', the question would then be, o.k. S. was theresubstance, was there energy, and was there time, before the 'Event'?I would ask S. also when this energy of the bang runs out whatthen?, I would press the point home that the Great IndiansTraditions had a good explanation for all this many millenniumbefore the present time, and is probably a good guide for thescientists. Oh! I would ask my young friend S. where did the laws ofphysics come from? Apparently they are unique, the laws had to bespot on for there to be an existance, that is what the physicistseem to be saying.

I would ask S. one other thing, how is it possible for a spider tobuild the perfect web according to its kind, without actually beingtaught.

I would say to S., think about it, think about it, be tenacious, bemercilessness, and be brave, let your desire for the truth take youwhere it will, just hang in there! S. my friend I was once like you,maybe one day we can really talk.

With Respect and Divine Love,

Mike Keenor------------------------

Dear Sadak,

1. Where is God I have never seen Him?EXAMPLES Most children knowwater is H2O (Hydrogen 2 parts and Oxygen 1 part) ask them them toshow hydrogen and oxygen showing water. Next show them Yogurt (Curd)and ask them to show milk. Bigger children ask them to show planets.Then tell then from Sanskrit slokas-- "God is apprameyam" that whichcannot be seen or known by senses as in case of above examples, asGod can be only known by Gyana (knowledge)2. Who has seen Him? Like in case of scientist tell as per aboveexamples, so does Saints tell. Only a saint (Guru) can show God asshown to Vivekananda by Swamy Ramakrishna3. How is He? Slokas say: Aroopamai, Aksharamai. Roopam, Akandamai,Viratroopamai Etc. No definite shape as HE appears in the form thatthe devotee wants. HE is in sounds - Om, HE is like Sri Krishna/SriRama Etc, Omnipresent (That cosmic energy filled in everything), HEis in all shapes and forms.4. If I dont know how do I accept? Contemplate. If you accept thatthere is Galaxies then contemplate what energy is performing wholeuniverse, like in the case of any toy needs battery, car need petrolor fuel, computer need electricity etc. Still do not want to accept-Leave it.

Jai Sri Krishna

baiya sathyanarayan-----------------------------

All questions arise out of answers. When one asks a questioneither he needs a confirmation of the answer which he already hasor he is answering his own question. When somebody is asking aquestion relating to God, first he has to explain what is in hismind when he says or thinks of GOD.

Einstein said that the world is an optical illusion. We think andfeel that we are separated from the rest. This is an opticalillusion. We have no direct contact with the outside world. Allthe sensorial data has to filter through our optical nerve and ourmind (delusion). So we have no idea of what is exactly out there.When one realizes this he comes closer to God or some superiorknowledge.

To realise that we are the debris of God is the supremerealisation.

The most mysterious thing holds the most important key. Death isthe most mysterious thing. Death holds the most important key.

When death happens. The soul/consciousness releases out of thecage (body � which is always subjected to three dimensional viewandlinear concept of time and space), one will realize or merge withGod

H. Subair

------------------------------dear pratapji,thank u for giving us such wonderful knowledge.personlike you are really god's gift to us.bhargav mehta------------------------PRIOR POSTINGRe: Does God (Paramatma) Exist? Where is the Proof? Whatis the logic ?

Through that supreme devotion he comes to know Me in reality, whatand how great I am; and thereby knowing Me in essence he forthwithenters into My being.

Gita - Chapter 18 Sloka : 55

Sundara Raghavendran---------------------------

Deaar Sadhakas, Namaste!When someone says "where is God? I have never seen Him", that personhas to know what God is that he expect to see, otherwise he cannotask the question. The question comes from the implicit assumptionthat God is some imagination, ideas, knowledge, belief, etc. in themind and what I see out there is definitely not "God".So it is better to rephrase the question back to What God is first.When that is understood, all questions by Tabalchiji will getanswered.Consider the following dialogue:Q: Do you have a doubt about your own existence?A: No, I know I exist beyond a shadow of doubt. It is so obvious tome!Q: How do you know you exist?A: I don't know HOW, but I am sure I DO!Q: Do you need any help of another person, scripture, or somelogical explanation to confirm you do exist?A: Definitely not, even if they say I don't exist, I know I do,because it is experiential within me now. I don't even need anysense organs-mind-intellect to tell me I exist!

So, it is self-evident existence, of "beingness" we all feel withinus, and by which we know what is knowable in this world as objectsof knowledge. This experience of Being Conscious is always with us,never are we away from IT, not even in our sleep when body-mind-world are all gone no one knows where! But I am always!I just have to find out that ultimately this "I" is Impersonal andis of the nature of Existence-Consciousness which we call God!Personal God of Bhakta appears in this Impersonal!Based on this, I can conclude that God is not a particular objectamong many objects we know through sense organs, mind and intellect.It is THE UNIQUE and objectless EXPERIENCE!It is like our eyes who cannot see themselves and yet know theirexistence beyond any shadow of doubt because SEEING takes placeautomatically by just Being.Once it is grasped, it can lead to God Realization!Namaskar...

Pratap Bhatt

-------------------------------

My dear Sarphod,There is a very beautiful story from ancient times that I haveheard from my guru. Once, a king called his minister and said, "Iwant you to answer two questions.....otherwise your position will beat stake.....first, can you show me God. Secondly, what is Goddoing right now?The minister was in anxiety. He went home, began searchingthrough various scriptures....wondering if he would have a job thenext day. His small son approached him, and noticing his father'sperplexity, inquired, "What troubles you, father?" The fatherresponded, "Oh, this is not something you would understand." Atthe child's persistence, the father finally explained. The smallchild smiled, and simply said, "Father, that is so easy toanswer.....just tell the king that even a small child can answerthese inquiries, and I will then give him my responses".The father had no choice, as he didn't know the way torespond. So, when the child came before the king, he requested theking, "First, please have a pot of milk brought forth." The king didso. Then the child inquired, "Is there ghee in this milk?" Theking said, "Yes, it is there." Then the child explained, "It isthere, but you cannot see it. Why can you not see the ghee?" Theking said, "There is a process by which the ghee will be broughtforth, of course, first one must churn the milk into butter, thenthe butter is slowly heated until the ghee rises to thesurface......only after one patiently follows this process will hesee the ghee." As the king was speaking, slowly realization cameinto his heart, that similarly, one cannot demand to see God at thismoment....there is a process. One who's heart is not pure, whodoes not have love and devotion, cannot see the Lord, but He willcertainly reveal Himself to those who are willing to accept theprocess of "bringing forth the ghee".The child then said, "You are asking me what God is doing.That is putting me in the postion of teacher, and you as disciple.So, is it appropriate for you to be sitting on your throne, if youare learning from me? " The wise King immediately pleced the childon the throne, and sat in front of him, ready to try to understandhis next lesson. "This is what God is doing"....he said. "He istaking someone from a low position and putting him into a highposition, according to the results of his work, and taking someoneelse from a high position and putting him into a low position."The king was very pleased with the child's answers, and rewarded himand his father.So, one may say, "I don't accept such simplisticresponses".....well, then, such a person will never see the Lord,unless and until he is fortunate enough to get the association of asadhu, by whose association one's heart melts. When one trulycomes into contact and develops some sukrti by contact with a Godconsscious person, there is no material, anaytical way to explainwhat happens. It is beyond our mundane intelligence, our ability toanalyze. So, simply pray for the youth you are hoping to guide,and gradually perhaps the mercy of the sadhus will come to them.It is not a mechanical process.I hope my words have been gentle, encouraging, and helpful.....itis truly a sadness which we all share as parents if our childrenbecome somewhat agnostic or doubtful of the underestanding of theLord's presence, and the need for ancient, eternal tradition. Wecan only pray to be the best examples of loving, patient friends forthem that we can possibly be.

respectfully,Mahalaksmi Dasi

-------------------------------Sarphod,

Read Paramahansa Yogananda's book "the Autoibgraphy of a Yogi"published by Self Realization Fellowship, Los Angeles, CA.

Haley H. Haynes--------------------------------Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!In this posting I would like to build on my previous post.We as parents must deeply understand the truth of who we are, whatis the nature of world and God first. Then only we can explain toour children. I would shy away to tell children that because it issaid in our scriptures, you have to believe in God being such andsuch.

We can begin on the path of knowledge with the premise. That whichalways IS irrespective of time, location or cause, is Truth. Truth,thus, cannot be denied and has to be our continuous experiencealways, not some states we experience that come and go, rather Thatin which all states of experiences happen.

In the beginning it may sound like intellectual, but understandingof that which always IS, has to be our real nature, or Reality ofwhatever we all seem to experience dawns on us sooner rather thanlater. What is Reality, then?If we continue to inquire, we may find that whether I am in joyful,or painful or sad or indifference or even in depressedsituations, "I am" always present and "knowingness" of these varioussituations I am in is also always present too, which I never noticedue to my attachments/aversions to situations. These situationseventually disappear but not "I".What is the nature of this I that we all say I when referring toourselves? Whatever it is, for sure it IS! This ISNESS-I is the mostcertain experience and is Truth. Even if I see illusion, I or seeingis the truth. This seeing then is communicated as I see an object(orhear, taste, smell, touch, think, feel etc). I and seeing issynanymous as consciousness.

Now extend this to outer world. Regardless of objects we perceiveout there, Being Conscious of them is the only truth of ourexperience. Thus, alleged external world is nothing but ONEUndivided/Whole Existence/Consciousness(Absolute) in our experience.Mind is given to us to divide the Existence into different objectsfor practical and Divine play. When we come to this understanding,our attitude towards world changes to one of dispassion, devotionand to serve it as God, in whatever ways we can. We see Godeverywhere our eyes fall upon!This is God relization.Namaskar.............Pratap BhattGITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES:1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify their doubtsrelated to Gitaji shlokas. Therefore, responses which furtherclarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be posted.2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures tosubstantiate your response.3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to theextent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respectingsadhaka's time.5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only.6. Please do not include links to the other sites or otherorganizations.7. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phonenumber, address etc.8. Please do not address the response to a particular individualsince the message is going to the entire group.9. Due to the large readership, all responses may not be posted.10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if contentis unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the group.11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth,westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use to Sanskritwords only, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit bracketedwherever possible.

MODERATORRam Ram------------------------

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My question is that how to prove that there exists a super naturalpower called "God" ? At least how to explain that. How to correlateHis existence with the character of the world? Children now a daysneed more than belief to accept. Can there be any way vide which wecan establish that God exists. If some body says say :1. Where is God I have never seen Him?2. Who has seen Him?3. How is He?4. If I dont know how do I accept?5. God is a term coined by elders to put moral shackles over us sothat we may indulge in goodness.6. There has to be some basis for his existence? What are the logicswhich point towards the existence of God? From where to pick thethread?

Sarphod Tabalchi

NEW POSTING

Chapter ten of Bhgavata Gita explains every aspects of Almighty GodNo more explanations required

 

Thanks

truly yours

 

S S Bhatt

----

" Ahankaram balam darpam, kamam krodham parigraham,Vimucya nirmamah santo, brahma bhuyaya kalpate" ( gita 18, 53). Which means " one who is deyached , free from false ego, false strength, pride, ownership and one who is always peaceful, such a person is eligible for brahma swarupam."When one is free from false ego and becomes non attached to material things, then that one reached " brahma bhuta stage". A pure devotee goes still further and becomed engaged in devotional service. Pure devotional service is the key to attain the lord. There are examples to prove God's presence. Sant tukaram went back to lord's kingdom on garuda vahana', sent by pandu ranga. Composer singer annamacharya saw lord venkateswara. Hare krishna. Prasad iragavarapu m.d

---

Sutra 1Parambrahma (Spirit or God) is everlasting, complete, without beginning or end.It is one, indivisible Being.The Eternal Father, God, Swami Prarmbrahma, is the only Real Substance, Sat, andis all in all in the universe.Why God is not comprenhensible;Man possesses eternal faith and believes intuitively in the existence of aSubstance, of which the objects of sense - sound, touch, sight, taste and smell,the component parts of theis visible world - are but properties. As manidentifies himself with his material body, composed of the aforesaid properties,he is able to comprhend by these impercect organs these properties only, and notthe Substance to which these properties belong. The Eternal Father, God, theonly Substance in the Universe, is therefore not comprehensible by man of thismaterial world, unless he becomes divine by lifting his self above this creationof Darkness or Maya. See Hebrews 11:1 and John 8:28."Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things notsee.""Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the son of man (human ego),then shall ye know that, I am he."Sutra 2In it (Parambrahma) is the origin of all kowledge and love, the root of allpower and joy.Prakriti or Nature of God;The Almighty Force, Shakti, or in other words the Eternal Joy, Ananda, whichproduces the world; and the Omniscient Feeling, Chit, which makes this worldconscious, demonstrate the Nature, Prakriti, of God the Father.How God is comprehended.As man is the likness of God, directing his attention inward he can comprehendwithin him the said Force and Feeling, the sole properties of his Self - theForce Almighty as his will, Vasana, with enjoyment, Bhoga; and the FeelingOmniscient as his Consciousness, Chetana, that enjoys, Bhokta. See Genesis 1:27."In this way God created man in his own image, in the image of God created hehim; male and female created he them."So says Swami Sri Yukteswarji in his book, "The Holy Science".

Haley Haynes

---------

Sarphod Tabalchi, you have raised some very pertinent questions, which clearly do away with the concept of an anthropomorphic just and merciful Father – one is reminded of the Epicurean Riddle:"Either God wants to abolish evil, and cannot; Or He can, but does not want to.If He wants to, but cannot, He is impotent. If He can, but does not want to, He is wicked.If God can abolish evil, and God really wants to do it, why is there evil in the world?"The irrational, the tissue of whose brain is of a coarse quality, will try to offer some very stupid explanations to this riddle, leaning on the spurious law of Karma.I am shocked to see educated people attach more weight to blind faith and vulgar superstition than to facts which lie in hand – this is something Charles Darwin had bemoaned as well. Raja Ram Mohan Roy had hoped that Western education wouldrid Indians of blind faith: he was wrong. Western education has succeeded only in creating a profusion of literate fools.I was reading some Indian Scripture in which there was mention of "the God who brings rain and the demons that withhold it" – this disgusted me so much that I just threw that useless book away. Science has done half the job to cure peoplefrom the disease of God and Religion; the other half can be achieved by reading Western Philosophy. I would definitely attach more weight to men of science and logic than to the buffoons who write about Gods and demons bringing rain. Ifbitten by a venomous snake, where would you rush to – a modern hospital stocking the anti-venom, or some dim-witted idiot who would parrot out Scriptures in an attempt to cure you? Until modern science developed snake anti venom, and manyother cures, our Scriptures and obsolete medical techniques were quite ineffective and useless when it came to most medical problems."God is Everything. God is a manifestation of all that is around us(trees, mountains, birds, animals, mankind)" – this quote by Catherine Anderson just proves Epicurus right – it means God is harmful bacteria, virus, and all the evil that pervades the world.If anyone really wishes to enlighten themselves, I suggest you stop reading trash and go for books by great men like David Hume and Arthur Schopenhauer.P Srivastava---

Shree Hari Ram Ram

Srivastavaji, Namaskaar! Please share with us if you have read the Bhagavad Gita. (By read, we mean - not just superficially scanning...but questioning, inquirying and seeing if the answers are available in it).....

Simply speaking.... if we have not done DNA testing of our father... we are living in blind faith.... As we recollect - ARthur Schopenhauer was deeply influenced by the Bhagavad Gita, he has made comments to that effect.

Education feeds the mind/intellect which are insentient. It is impossible to know, conquer, realize, attain the sentient essence (GOD, Consciousness, Presence) through insentient means. Ram Ram

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God is an Anglo-Saxon noun and refers to a Male (as opposed to Goddess), Creator Being. There is no provable God (or Goddess).

 

As Hindus, what do we know? Tat Tvam Asi. This Mahavakya means that we are No-Thing (Tat). This Tat is also referred to as ParaBrahman and sometimes Nirguna Brahman. What can be said about Tat? Nothing. "Mouna vakya ParaBrahaman tattwam."

 

Tat may also be defined as Om Tat Sat(chidananda). This Saguna Brahaman experience is provable. Energy/Light/Bliss is our Atmana. This we know. God we do not know. As Hindus, we have our Ishta Devatas and this good and this is personal. One does not (and cannot) have to prove the existence of our Ishta Devata. Thus, Hinduism is a monistic polymorphism and not the lesser understanding of Monotheism.

 

Swami Param

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Shree Hari Ram Ram

Swami Paramji, Kindly explain what exactly is meant by monistic polymorphism. Ram Ram

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is obvious that there is NO GOD. The characters attributed to GOD are

Omnipresent

Omnipotent

Merciful

All Knowing.

There is so much misery and injustice in this world that either God does not know it in which case he is not all knowing, or he knows and does not do any thing about it. In that case he is not merciful. Or he can not do any thing then he is not omnipotent.

I take a recent case of a 10 years old girl being raped by her father. What was God doing?

It has been said that the girl was being punished for what she might have done in her previous life. How can a merciful God punish a child of ten ? In any case what she did in her previous life could not have been done if God did not will it to be done. If we agree that it was a punishment for some act for previous life than the father can not be blamed for the this act. He was only an instrument in the WILL of God. Let us face it God is nothing but an inversion of Man to explain things he could not explain, create an absolute authority and may be give hope when there is none

arun sharma

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Shree Hari Ram Ram

Arunji... have you read the Bhagavad Gita? Paramatma is not the doer, nor a punisher ! There have been previous discussions on this subject... in Gita Talk...you can search by topic. Ram Ram

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PRIOR POSTING

To my beloved sadhaks,

Where is God? Who has seen Him? How is God? How do I accept Him? What logic points towards God? Let us look at Gita 7/19"After taking many births and acquiring the human form and realizing that God is Everything, should such a knower (Jnanavan) surrender to Me, indeed such a great soul is a rarity. "Repeat such a great soul is a rarity. My question is how can one not see God, who cannot be aware of where He is, how He is, but to accept Him is a good place to start and how to do this is by establishing a direct affinity for God.Everything is God. God has in simple words, expounded to us the innermost secrets of the hearts of great souls of Vasudev Sarvam. God is Everything. God is a manifestation of all that is around us(trees, mountains, birds, animals, mankind)Bhagavan says(Gita 18/55)" After realizing my quintessence (Tattva) man immediately merges into Me."Those who want to attain God do so by Discipline of Action, Knowledge and Devotion.For more info on God realization go to Swamiramsukhdasjis site and read on how to attain God with humility.catherine andersen

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Shree Hari:Ram Ram.

By Grace of God these questions are on my computer:

1. Where is God I have never seen Him? God is in your mind. You can't see God with your eyes as mental conceptions are not seen by us.

2. Who has seen Him? Nobody ever declared he/she has seen God.

3. How is He? Nobody ever described how is God.

4. If I don't know how do I accept? If you don't know accept or don't accept, choice is yours.

5. God is a term coined by elders to put moral shackles on us so that we may indulge in goodness. What harm is there if you indulge in goodness? Indulge in goodness or not, choice is yours.

6. There has to be some basis for His existence. What are the logics which point towards the existence of God? from where to pick the thread? Existence of Existence (termed Tattva, Sattaa by Swamijee Shree Ramsukhdasjee) needs no basis for its existence. Existence of Existence is all logic and all illogic but they can't point towards Existence of Existence similarly as you can't mix water into water when you are under water only. You are the beginning and you are the end of the thread. Pick it up and go. You shall finish at the other end of thread and shall be surprised to experience that what you sought is the seeker. Vasudev: Sarvam. (Gita 7:19).

If you conceive God, you fail to experience the experience as experience is experience only (Swamijee in God IS Everything page 2 last para "Similarly in this world, men, animals, birds, trees, mountains, stones, bricks, sand, lime, earth etc. are of diverse kinds, yet what resides intrinsically within, has no form and that formless essence is God".).

Bandhu, if anything is easiest it is Realizing God (Existence, not any human with four hands etc they are NOT God as they don't reside in everything, they come and go.) Who is ever Realized as You can't deny your existence. Ram Ram.

Kachcha Sadhaka Sarvottam.----

5 Fallacies & Realities about God Fallacies* Ego Consciousness Realities of Self Consciousness 1 Humans believe that God needs something. Humans know that God needs nothing. God is beyond needs and demands. 2 Humans believe that God can fail to get what He needs. Humans know that God can never fail to get what He does not need. He has no needs. God is his own measure beyond failures & successes. 3 Humans believe that God has separated them from Him because they have not given Him what He needs. Humans know that God has integrated them from Him because they are God in human form. God is beyond form and non-form as one Living Consciousness. 4 Humans believe that God still needs what He needs so badly that God now requires them, from their separated position, to give it to Him. Humans know that God never needs any thing from humans other that what they are and have. God is in human form. 5 Humans believe that God will destroy them if they do not meet His requirements. Humans know for God there is no destruction and creation but infinite manifestations of energy of Living Consciousness. Dance of Living consciousness is appearance & disappearance of Physical Universe.

*Neale Donald Walsch (The New Revelations)

Sushil Jain

PRIOR POSTING

Hare Krishna

God is worshipped in 3 forms:1. Attributeless-Formless (Nirgun-Nirakar)2. Attribute-Formless (Sagun-Nirakar)3. Attribute-Form (Sagun-Sakar)

Goswami Tulsidasji has said"NIRGUN ROOP SULABH ATI SAGUN JAAN NAHI KOI""The attributeless form of Parmatma is very easy to understand butno one can know the form of Parmatma with attributes."

The first form of Attributeless-Formless Pramatma can be proved bylogic of uninterrupted existence (akhand satta). The second form ofAttribute-Formless (Sagun-Nirakar) Parmatma can be proved by logicof conscious and sentient Creator, Sustainer and Destroyer.

But the third form of Parmatma with form and attributes (Ram,Krishna, Shiva etc.) cannot be proved by any logic, rationale etc.They can only be believed with purport of Gita, Ramayan, Sadhak-Sanjivani etc.If anyone argues over Ram being God then questions like these willarise "In forest how did Lord Ram get deceived by a gold-deer? If Heis deceived then how is He Omniscient? Why did Lord take the help ofSugreev's army? If He takes help then how come is He Almighty?...."

When Lord Ram killed Ravan's mighty brothers Khar and Dushan, Ravandecided to examine whether the Omniscient and Almighty Parmatma hastaken Ram-avatar. He kidnapped Sitaji (with disguise of an ascetic)by deceiving Lord with a golden-deer. Lord failed in the examinationand Ravan was successful in his evil plan, but what was the endresult? Lord Ram destroyed the entire clan of Lankan demonsalongwith Ravan.

That is why Goswamiji has said"RAM ATARKYA BUDDHI KAR JAANI""Lord Ram cannot be known by intellect."

Faith in Parmatma with form and attributes (known as Bhagwan) canonly be developed when one does satsang. Reading scriptures is alsoone form of Satsang.

Hare KrishnaVarun P. Paprunia

Hare KrishnaDear Sarphod Uncle,

I sincerely apologize to you and your family for the language I haveused. I thought you were just trying to outsmart us with yourintellectual prowess so I used the same ploy on you; but Sir you area true sadhak. Sadhanaji, Mikeji recognized you but because of my so-called cleverness I did not recognize you. Again my sincereapologies for the usage of harsh words and blunt language.

Hare KrishnaVarun P. Paprunia------------------------------Om, God = generator orgniser destroyer.Do you see the air? Nosuppose you don't see the air then you can't see the energies in theair that sustain our body. Suppose you want to hold a grand partyof 5000 people continuing 15 days, then how much work you have todo, you will distribute your work among your relatives. Think ofGod is a organising 600 crores or more ( not only about earth butthink about whole universe). Think who has that Supreme organizingpower ! You or God. God is in every thing from atom to Everest.Suppose you made a car that each and every thing came from you meanseach part of car made from you, by you. That is God. He iscolourless, touchless, soundless, shapeless because he is supremeenergy. If you trust and have faith in God. you will trust ongod.this is the one kind of work of god. because hi is ruling onus.Whether you go to the church or any mandir or masjid, your needsby pleading to your superior… He is That. And you say uponfulfilling your wish - "thank God" What is that power that isfulfilling your needs? Whether small or a big one, it is fulfilledand often no by your effort

Hari Om,nilesh popat mali,

-------------------------------PRIOR POSTING

To Respected Sadhaks of this really divine , perhaps the only of itskind across the globe, Satsanga Group!

It is me, Dear Brothers, with my Dear Begum Sahibaa respectfullythanking you all for gems of wisdom which you imparted to me and tothe world. An association of people like you, group like yours, isor can only be God willed. Indeed, with people like Vyasji, (extremely polished and never contradicting. Must be the one who hasseen/ touched the "dukhalayam" very closely, very wisely and wonover the same), Mike Keenor ( You are pride of the very humanity)Varun, ( I am sure he is younger than many of us- his impetuosity/quick reaction reflects that, but very clever and very organised-Refer Gita 16/1 - jnanayogarvyavasthitam- an ideal young follower)Pratapji Bhatt ( Spl regards for you, for not firing me back) , thatreal firebrand Dear Sister of all of us Shashikalajee ( What asharp discrimination you have been blessed with ! ), Mira Dassji (An impartial devotee /follower of Respected Swamiji RamsukhdasjiMaharaaj), Rajaji, Baiyaji and dozens like them, are the jewels ofthis divine forum. My heartfelt pranaams to Vineetji Sarvottam. Hiscomments were innocent and correct.

Thanks AgainSarphod TabalchiRaseeli Rani Tabalchi

--------------------------------PRIOR POSTING

Dear Sadhak,Yes, Sadhakji, you are a Sadhak-a seeker of Truth,this is what myKrishna says--

Chatur-vidha bhajante maam janh sukrutinorjuna!Aarto jijnasuj-arthaarthi jnaani cha bharatarshabha! (Gita 7 / 16)

O Arjuna! There are four types of noble souls who worship Me : Theafflicted, the seekers of knowledge, the seekers of enjoyment andthe wise.

Gigyasu - seekers of knowledge.

The main barrier in not seeing God here and now is that you areusing wrong tool my dear.You want to see God through yr mind, whichitself is Asat.A traveller of Gyaan Marg, must know the differencebetween Sat and Asat.He must disconnect himself from everythingwhich is Asat(temporary, everchanging). He needs to drop/disconnecthimself from everything-the world, its relations, his own body,senses, mind, intellect, ego..... When everything is dropped thereremains NOTHING.Just Nothing...simply Nothing.....From that NOTHING emerges Peace, Love and Bliss. From that Nothingemerges EVRYTHING... This is the beauty of Gyaan Yoga.

And the most wonderful,the most amazing truth about my belovedKrishna is---He(God) becomes whatever you want Him to be. When wesee HIM as our protector, He rushes to rescue us as in the case ofDropadi, when we see Him as our Friend, He becomes our friend as inthe case of Sudama, when we accept HIM as all powerful miraculousbeing, miracles start unfolding in our lives.When we see HIM in astatue, he becomes motionless. He is everywhere in all forms,andwithout forms too, just we are unable to see him due to our ownlimited vision.When we accept HIM as our Guide and Guru, like Arjuna did, and wishto see HIS Vishwaroopa, He bestow us divine vision and we see Him ineverything, everywhere. I see many people saying God does not exist,money is God..ect, etc. So what, He does not hesitate to become nonexistence for them, still showering His Love....No discrimination inHis regime.

He just "IS". I love Swamiji the way He describes HIM. SomewhereSwamiji said-He IS or He IS NOT, this "IS" remains the same in boththe statement(nahi main bhi hai or hai main bhi hai).wow...Howblessed this human form is!!!

How divine this forum is!!!Lets be Love, Peace and Bliss !Shivoham! Shivoham!!With lots of Love,A SadhikaSadhna Karigar------------------------------

1. Where is God I have never seen Him? You cant see HIM as HE is anobject. Have you seen Saturn planet? How do you belive thatscientist? You belive based on Knowledge. In temples 2000 years oldthere are nine planets know as Nava Graha. How they saints knewwithout scientific proof.2. Who has seen Him? 100 `s of saints.3. How is He? HE is formless and with form or any form HIS devoteneeds.4. If I dont know how do I accept? If you dont know, try to know.Still your if you fail- It Gods will.5. God is a term coined by elders to put moral shackles over us sothat we may indulge in goodness. Why your parents put morals asshakles to put you good charactor. So is God put. Just understandit. If you think shackles you are mistaking. If you think guidanceyou will progress.6. There has to be some basis for his existence? What are the logicswhich point towards the existence of God? From where to pick thethread? Nine planets and earth are in space floating. Who made them?You want to make something you gather material and put your effortto make project. So there is someone who is behind all and yourthinking capacity. Otherwise could be a lay man.Jai Sri Krishnabaiya sathyanarayan------------------------------Pranam

God exists. If you want solid evidence I recommend you searchon "milkmiracle" You will see for your self.

bvmJai Shree Ram------------------------------

Dear Mumukshus (those who yearn for Divinity), Namaste. For thosewho yearn for Divinity's Peak Experience, no such doubt arises; infact their question would be why shd they have doubt in God!Doubting God takes one nowhere.

Trying to reach the divinity is the correct way. There is no proofof the dreams we have very regularLy. They don't 'exist' in thesense of all these existing objects, you see.

WHERE IS GOD WHOM I DON'T SEE:Do you 'see' the radio waves, electricity, magnetism? Do you seelove, hatred, jealousy? Do they not exist? Why all shd be visible?

WHO HAS SEEN HIM?A lot of people have 'witnessed' 'Him to whom the divinity hasrevealed 'itself'.

WHO IS HE? - HOW IS HE LIKE?He is She and is That. One form for one thing is inapplicable inthat experience of visioning the Reality which is The Absolute amongthe experiences.

IF I DON'T KNOW HOW DO I ACCEPT?The dead people, unborn people, people who are far away - you can'tsee them. Do you lose belief in such invisible all? Be honest inanswering these abstract questions.

GOD IS A SCHAKLE . . . GOODNESS.God is not directly linked to morality, goodness, honesty, kindnessetc which we teach for our youngsters to whom we want good futureand for building in them the moral character which saves oursociety. All honest people won't see God; no dishonest person cansee God.

THERE HAS TO BE SOME BASIS FOR THE EXISTENCE OF GOD. WHAT ARE THELOGICS FOR THE EXISTENCE OF GOD? FROM WHERE TO PICK THE THREAD?We do ask for proofs for the objective things only. God astranscendental baffles those objectives. There is no harm in thedisbelief about God. But missing a chance of His experience whileborn as human beings is to miss a great opportunity. We do all thosethings of happiness. enjoying etc for which we can afford. We canafford to have a Peak Experience in this human life. Why not try?If you surf the Youtube on the Internet, try among them thespiritual masters' sayings. Ramana Maharshi, NisargaduttaMaharaj . . there are scores of them who are the proofs of God.You may want to read Tony Parsons book, 'The Open Secret'.

I am not glorifying him or anybody in this context. I wanted toshare with people who are seekers like me. I wish all our people thebest of luck during this Christmas and Happiness in the New Year.

Dr Shastry--------------------------------1. Where is God I have never seen Him? You cant see HIM as HE is NOTan object. Have you seen Saturn planet? How do you belive thatscientist? You believe based on Knowledge. In temples 2000 years oldthere are nine planets know as Nava Graha. How they saints knewwithout scientific proof.2. Who has seen Him? 100 `s of saints. In Duryodhan Shaba when SriKrishna took Virat roop, everyone folded their hand and seen HIM asGod except Duryodhan who told it was illusion.3. How is He? HE is formless and with form or any form HIS devoteneeds.4. If I dont know how do I accept? If you dont know, try to know.Still your if you fail- It Gods will. Yasodha accepted Sri Krishnawith love and compassion, so she tie HIM up with rope to a roller.Duryodhan wanted to tie up Sri krishna who took Virat roop unable totie up. It is the way you accept.Jai Sri Krishna

baiya sathyanarayanPRIOR POSTINGJai Hanuman

I agree entirely with Usha Sridhar. Dear Sister! Keep writingregularly . You are precise, accurate and perfect. So is SisterAnita- absolutely correct and "really" .practical and therefore onthe path of Gita 7:19 ! Welcome Brother Wilson ! Welcome Ram Bhai !O Daddy the Great ! Let such "Divinity" continue flowing unto thisGT Group ! So Pleasing ! So unbelievable !! So many reasons toexclaim with pleasure- "Brilliant" !

Thanks Sarphod ! How is your Begum Sahibaa ! It is a sin to make hercry- Get me ? SIN - I say! Do you understand what is sin? "Anguishof your soul" is most of the times " your sin" - also ! AlmostAlways!

Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj would often say that what is the proofthat Mr X is your father - BASED ON YOUR PERSONAL/ INDIVIDUAL/REMEMBERED/EXPERIENTIAL-"KNOWLEDGE"?

No body, come what may, has been able to "prove" in the past, norcan they do so in the present , nor will they be able to "prove"that in the future ! Nor can there be any possibility of provingthat. If you can't "prove" the existence of your even this father onearth, how can you prove the existence of your "eternal father"?

Reason: "Self" Proven ! Obvious !! Beyond Mind/ Intellect/Ego !

"Acceptance"/ "Faith" / "Belief" - is the only remedy. If some bodywants to argue on this - Come On !! Hats off to you BrotherWilson !! Please keep contributing and participating in thisSatsanga forum!

Mike Bhaiyya ! I gleefully noted three things in your latestmessage -

1 An Aussie !2 Clever 'little' dialogue!! ( Jeeva -Maya - Jagdish. Maya is in thecenter. Noted that Brother? Between the two ! )

Above all -

3 Flowers in the Sky !!!!

(What an effort by You? What a research ! How well read , indeed !So difficult! Yet so obvious ! So handy ! So quick - within hours ofposting the 'little dialogue' ! So Self Proven ! So inaccessible !Yet so easily available !

But available in the universe to whom ? Available why ? How timelyand exactly ?

Sure, the poem was already existing in this creation / uiniverse fora long long time- it was not Mike Keenor made- but what about itsmanifestation !! )

Thanks indeed ! Unbelievable! "DIVINE" !! Do you get us MrSarphod? - We are Sadhaks ! Only "Sadhaks" !

Namaste JeeJee JeeShashikala---

Dear Vyasji,

You have answered beautifully. But, the problem is that Tabalchi jiis more interested in getting 'brilliant' and similar appreciatorycomments from others (as is evident from his second mail).

Before trying to know God (Where is God I have never seen Him? isTabalchi ji's first question), he should explain what he is. If heknows about himself, then he will see God's smiling face. Again, theproblem is that Tabalchiji is depending on others even to know "koaham (who am I)"

May I quote from Shankara ? "KASHTWAM KOHAM KUTAH AAYAATAH, KA MEJANANI KO ME TATAH" (who are you, who am I, from where have I come,who is my mother and who is my father).

Kind regards,Suresh C SharmaPRIOR POSTINGHari Om

One who has thirst inside, only can see water. If there is nothirst, inspite of water being in your front, it is not noticed byyou. Similarly , one who has thirst for God only can "see" God, andone who has thirst for world only, "sees" the world.

It is your desire which in fact determines what you can or can notsee- IRRESPECTIVE OF WHAT IN FACT EXIST OR DOES NOT EXIST.

Because of your desire for the world only you see the world which inreality NEVER EXISTS. Because of your non-desire only you can notsee God who in reality ALWAYS EXISTS !!

Want to see God? Mr Sarphod? Develop desire for Him !!

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B----------------------------

Dear members,

This is the first time I am writing on this forum - not because Ididnt wish to comment earIier, but only because I am too young inthis stage - by experience and by learning.However, looking at the questions raised below, I thought I shouldat least share my feelings:

1.God is no external being - he or she is part of each one of us -all living beings. So please, do not try to explain to children thatgod is some type of other person. And therefore, each one of us hasthe responsibility to lead a life which moves towards positivity,looking at betterment, and not hurting people, beings by our act.

Seeing GOD - we all have. Only some have realised him. He is in mymaid who comes to work each morning, he is in my child - who hugs meevery time I meet him, he is in my husband - who lives with me andhas made my life complete. I have seen him in the rickshaw walla -who stopped by me to offer me ride to office yesterday. I see himevery day in different forms - sometimes, I too do not realise thatit was him who smiled in the morning and made my day. Everytime youmeet a person who does good to you - he or she is a reflection ofGOD. So, see god in all and see all in him.2.The world is like stage (as Shakespears has said) - and all of usare in here to play a role - be it tree, human, animal, you and me.And so is a child here to play a role. All our roles are defined bythis supreme power, whom we call GOD.

3. There are many happenings in our life which we humans are notable to explain - all this we credit to that UnKnowableforce/energy - GOD.

Try to see GOD in your family - your parents, your collegues, yourneighbours, and all the people whom you meet - search for that lightin them and do a small good act to make them happy. GOD would bethere with you!

Anita Sharma-------------------------Maybe my use of the word brilliant, can be misconstrued,a little tooAussie, it was intended as a exclamation of pleasure.

I know you are playing the roll of 'devils advocate', as clearly youwould understand, Maya and Jeeva in Jee Jee Shashikalaji's cleverlittle dialog.

Best to direct a single question to a Sadhak/Sadhaks.

See Zen poem below:(Emptiness in full Bloom).

Leaping from the Ledge of Infinite Regress,The Unmoved Mover fell into Formlessness:Pure silence echoed between the galaxies,Eons of eons vanished in a second,Withered trees bloomed in fires,Polar mountains melted, rivers went dry,Thusness scattered in sixty directions,Space became Time, time became things,Black Holes filled with Nirvana,A billion samadhi mirrors shattered,Galaxies snuggled within a single skull,Many became One, One only, only One.Then, the Divine Illuminatrix in All BeingsOpened Her clouded Eye, to see:Flowers in the Sky.

With Respect and Divine Love,

Mike Keenor

--------------------------Hari Om.

Respected sir,I've studied from my childhood that motheris our first GOd.We can see God only through our mother,father and Guru.Where is the proof that you came through your mother's womb?If you can explain how you passed through your mother with proof,I can explain with Krushna's Grace the true Krushna provided youhave the permission to see Krushna.Rest in my next.Hari Om.With Regards,Ushasridhar.

--------------------------

Jesus Says.I am the way, I am the Truth, I am the Faith. Please read the Bible.thanksWilson Kochukunju

Dear Mr. Sarfod & friends,

Since the beginning of human civilization, the question whetherthere is a God (or Gods), has occupied the human mind. It has alsobeen answered by various people in various ways in all the ages.But, the question has persisted till this day.

I have my own explanation. I emphatically say that Parmatma doesexist. The entire universe is within Him and He is also beyond theUniverse. He is so great and also so small that nobody can see Himwith his naked eye. He can only be realized. Regarding proof, everyliving being and every plant testifies His existence. With his super-intelligence, man has been able to do most amazing things andcreated wonders. But, man is still way behind in creating anythingthat is self generating. Every creation of God, on the other hand,is self-generating and self sustaining. Reproduction is a specialfeature of every species. Yet, every species has a life-time afterwhich it vanishes. Even this earth will meet its death some day. Wesee planets and stars dying and new ones coming up every day. Thisnever ending cyclic order of creation, recreation, assimilation andre-emergence is a glaring proof of His existence.

Yours sincerely,Ram Bhai------------------------------Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!Varunji, I want to thank you so much for speaking out to Tabalchijiabout I being not judgemental at all. As a friend and a fellowseeker, I was suggesting, Tabalchiji to read as many times as neededto grasp the meaning or at least ask questions to clarify points.Most of us know that when we read or hear 2nd or 3rd time it makesso much difference in our understanding!I want to wish you the very best Tabalchiji. One day you may wake upand find all answers about Truth of God, this world and "you".All sadhakas have provided excellent answers/pointers!Wishing you the best of Xmas Holidays and New Year, my fellowsadhaks, I remain prayerful!Namaskar......Pratap Bhatt

 

-------------------------------PRIOR POSTING-Shree Hari-

Sarphodji,

You know; the world as you see it, is a shadow of what it really is,I once heard it described as seeing the reflections of reality on theback of a cave wall, one has to turn around to see the glory of whatit is.Most people it seems, focus their whole lives looking at the falsereality reflected on the wall of the cave.Have we not all read about Yogis with extraordinary abilities? Isthis all lies, do such souls look on the doubters such as yourself,say nothing, smile or laugh as Lord Krishna laughed, they havenothing to prove , all the doubters have to do is turn around as itwere, to understand.

One great soul that I admire was Swami Vivekananda, to me he seems tobe a man ahead of his time, a person of great intellect, and aspiritual giant. It was he that aroused the world to the wealth thatIndia had to give.

11th September, 1893: 'Response to welcome' address:

"Swami Vivekananda addressed the august assembly of seven thousandpeople starting with the words: "Sisters and Brothers of America...",and the whole of audience went into inexplicable rapture withstandingovation and clapping that lasted for more than three minutes......."

If you consider you have a mind of sound reasoning, then maybe youcould read the yoga aphorisms, translated by that great Swami. (Ifyou require any translation).

Why does your Lady weep, is it because she sees the anguish of yoursoul. No matter what you may say or truly think, you are in conflict,do you understand ? Jee Jee Shashikalaji has hinted at it, otherSadhaks have made the point also, things like why ask about thatwhichdoes not exist etc.Sadhaks have implied that they have been through that battle. Ihave,I will tell you this, how much you reach for Father, how much you cryfor him, the tears of anguish will then turn to tears of joy, whenyour heart breaks loose from prison that binds it.

You may not understand what I am writing about, but one day you will.

With Respect and Divine Love,

Mike Keenor-----------------------------Dear Sadaks,I have not seen God yet. That is the reason I am not silent. The onewho has seen God remains silent. Let us not make tell Mr.SherphodVedanta/Upanashids.1.Where is God I have never seen Him? To see a program on TV, oneneeds TV Equipment, Power (electricity), and telecasting tower2. Who has seen Him? One who has turned his body equipment as atemple, Power of tuning (Craving to liberate) in mind, as mind haselectricity, magnatism, and telecasting tower (GOD) omnipresent.Just one has to tune to HIS frequency that is surrender.3. How is He? HE is benevolent to come in any form you meditate.4. If I dont know how do I accept? Go on saying any name of HIS.Eventually HE will tune to your frequency as HE did to Druva.Jai Sri Krishnabaiya sathyanarayan----------------------------

Dear Sirphod

I made a posting on your question. There was no attempt by me or forthat matter by any body (from the posts I see) who could give youanswers like you might be expected.

If you want to learn about God (accept or otherwise is a differentissue) you need to spend time and energy. You can select a Guru whocan help you. I do not see from your postings you have thisexpectation, but the one below.

But if your goal is to dispute existence of God, there could beanohter forum that must be working on such attempts.

By the way you can come out with your real name.

Venu Komanduri

PRIOR POSTING

Hi Sarphod Tabalchi,1. Where is God I have never seen Him?It seems you never tried to see God. Seeing God is not possible byour physical eye. Those who have an insight of God only can see God.If you try sincerely seeing God is would not be a problem. There aremany ways prescribed in our scriptures. First, Have faith in it.Then after you never deny God.2. Who has seen Him?I see Him always and communicate with Him. Not only with God, I talkto birds and animals. I can understand them and they understand me.3. How is He?He is always Happy. He never deny anything. He never denied myexistence. He wants everyone happy.4. If I dont know how do I accept?Dont reejct anything. Accept everything as it is. Never expectanything in your way accept everything as it is. Keep God in yourmind if you dont know God. Chant Oh God Oh God Oh my God wheneveryou want deny God.5. God is a term coined by elders to put moral shackles over us sothat we may indulge in goodness.If you know this much of God you should not deny God.6. There has to be some basis for his existence? What are the logicswhich point towards the existence of God? From where to pick thethread?First you ask your Parents who are patient to teach you the basicconcept of God existence. Once you have prerequesites to learn GodGod comes to you automatically. Be Patient. Can you ever see theelectricity passing through a wire. A bulb is shining, Have you everenquired about the electricity which illumines the bulb? Think aboutTV., Fridge, Air Conditioner etc., etc. whcih can not functionwithout electricity. Even you can not ask these questions withoutthat power unseen in you. My dear beleive in God is far easier thandenying God.Lovingly, Krishna (Shobha) Das

------------------------Wonderful testing of sadhaks by Tabalchi jiWe all must thank him for the excellent questions and for giving anopportunity to better our understanding in the spiritual domain.

All questions have very easy answers. Excellent expression by allsadhaks...in answering these.

But it is very difficult to satisfy the questioner on the answers.since these very questions cloud everything....and become obstaclesto understanding the truthsince it is about knowing the questioner first............knowing orseeing God comes much later.....

It has happened to perhaps all of us in the beginning and we mayhave gone through this period.But if we are able to contemplate on the questions with someguidance, question begin to dissolve/disappear........and theanswers start looking meaningful........

So, Tabalchi ji and the begum sahiba could start with contemplatingexercise on the questions firstfor example:

Q1 Where is God? ----contemplate on......where it should be? whatcould be the place where it could be,why it can not be hear with us?Q2 Does God exist? ---- Contemplate on.....Who am I? ask yourselfrepeatedly who am I?Q3 Who has seen him is irrelevant? My seeing is important socontemplate on questions - Why I don't see the God? Can I see it?What could it look like? What should it be?Q4 If I don't know how do I accept? Contemplate on What I don'tknow? Do I know all? How can I know more?Q5 Any other word other than God could be used for it. Contemplateon: Is goodness gives happiness? Are moral values important? Whywe need to fear the word God to be good?Q6 Contemplate on questions: What is basis of its existence? Whatis the basis of our existence? What God must exist? Why prophetshave to come to this world? Who are these prophets?

See what comes as answers. It is a good learningexercise......answers are within and we must practice to startlistening.....everyone has to do this for himself..............bestwishes......Thank you....Sushil Jain

----------------------------Dear Sarphod:

I have similar questions that you have.

Following is the status of those questions (mind you not answers):

1. Just beacuse I can not see GOD, that does not mean that there isnothing like GOD which exists, since there are so many things thatexist and yet I can not see (ex: Air, Gases and so many unknowns tomankind yet)

2. Same way as I have the question on the existence of GOD, I alsohave the question on my question itself, i.e. I can not prove thatthere is no GOD either.

3. Say suppose some one suddenly shows me the GOD, what are my testsand verifications to accept him/her/it as GOD. Do I have all thosetools, a big NO (I am not sure about you)

4. Even if I have all those tools to test the existence of GOD andall the tests are proved positive, then is it going to help me. Thatmeans, do I have the right objective to find out this very unusualthing called GOD? What is that single biggest thing that isbothering me about finding out this GOD? Does it have theseriousness to find out the GOD? If it does all the above questionsshould be answerd positively. Or else, I am not sincere in my quest.

5. I might not have all these tools right now, yet I have the questto know about the existence of GOD, then I do not jump in to quickconclusions like "There is no GOD, this forum is not DIVINE, etc.,"because that conclusion neither helps me nor taps in to the rightsources of knowledge. I will be just fooling myself saying "I askeda question which this forum is not able to answer"

Just for the record, I remember in the whole known history ofmankind, only one person (Sri Ramakrishna Paramahansa) has admittedto have seen GOD and was ready to show GOD to the one who wasearnestly with deepest intellectual anxiety and sincerity (SwamiVivekananda).

The one who has shown and the one who was shown the GOD did not havequestions. The SOURCE and the SINK are in the perfect state of mind,one to give and the other to receive. Am I in the equanimity levelsof Swami Vivekananda? I don't think I am and let me know if you are.

If you think you are, just stay there with sincere hope, ARAMAKRISHNA will happen to you and your intellectual quest might befulfilled.

If not I need to get there before I start looking for GOD. Till suchtime, GOD is tentative truth for me.

With a hope it might help you,Sincerely,Krishna (devangam krishnamurthy)Hare Krishna

Sarphod, you have praised me by saying "I am very good". FYI! I wasnot entertaining you but I was questioning YOUR very existence. Youdon't have any doubt in your existence still you cannot prove it.Why so?? Have you thought over it?? If you can prove it (with yourlogic/rationale) then why don't you do it?

Mikeji called you brilliant (I wonder why) but he has also calledyou inflexible. But I think you have not noted that. He, Vyasji,Pratapji and others have also given many points. You should thinkover it, compare it with your logic and then prove it wrong. But forthis one need guts, because you will have to keep aside yourprejudices to think over others' points. Even if you are not able toprove us wrong it does not mean that we can make you accept God, wecan only give logics/rationale.

No one can force anyone to accept God, especially those who do notrespect their father. If you cannot respect your father than how canyou accept and respect the biggest father (Param-PitaParmeshwar).Your father has deserted you and your wife also seems tobe upset with your adamant attitude, but you still don't have anyshame in admitting it. Rather than introspecting over your attitudeyou are defending it.

Pratapji has not passed any judgment; it is you who is passingjudgments. Mike is best, Varun is very good, Vyas NB is making methink. If these are not judgements then what is it? Pratapji hascorrectly pointed out that you are not reading posts with an openmind.

You have posted these questions only because your wife has directedyou to this group. This is the biggest problem because you are notinterested in knowing or learning anything, you are only askingthese questions just for the sake of it, just for a mere formality.

Mrs. Sarphod, please don't insist your husband to post questions. Heis only wasting our time and also don't reveal him anything aboutGita, because if you do so you will unnecessarily incur sin (Gita18.67)

You cannot see God or feel His presence but you definitely feel yourexistence as "I AM", right? Then why can't you prove it with yourlogic. I have asked 3 questions w.r.t. your existence but did notget any reply.

Hare KrishnaVarun P. Paprunia---------------------

Jai Hanuman

Mr Sarphod ! So you do not think or talk or desire regarding "flower of sky"- because it does not exist. You yourself said that.You can think/desire/talk about only that thing which exists.

Now this is the biggest proof. You thought about God. You talkedabout God. You desired to know about God. You raised questions inthis forum about God. How can you do that- if God does not exist?

If you can do that then why did you not talk about "flower of sky"?As a law you can desire about only that thing which exists.

Answer now! To the point only. ONLY to the point.

You said yourself that you would believe in your parents even ifthey were dead immediately after your birth, because there is abasis. The presence of yourself itself is an indicator of theirexistence. True. Now go backwards. Presence of your parents meansyour grand parents were there. Go backwards and keep going. In theend you will find one male and one female. Who were their parents?

God is "Param Pita" - our eternal father.

Clear?

Namaste Jee

Jee JeeShashikala

 

----------------------Hari Om

You wanted as to what is sample of God. Answer as given by Varunjiis correct. You , yourself, are "sample" of God ! Because like God,you are also permanent and faultless. Everybody "experiences" that -I EXIST. ( You talked about experiencing- I am talking aboutexperience only) . Do you have any doubt Mr Sarphod that you are notexisting ? You never have any doubt on this. You never conduct anytest to determine whether you exist or not. You neverexperience/feel that - I DID NOT EXIST. About past you may saythat "I don't know", but you can't say "I didn't exist" ! How canyou say so?

Why can't you say? Because you have never perceived your"self" tobe non existing. Non existence of your"self" has never come intoyour experience. Even in respect of the daily occuring of deepsleep, your experience never suggests that at that time you were nonexistent. But at the same time you experience directly theabsence of ego, intellect, mind and body etc., in the deep sleep.

So you exist.So He exists.

Now you are constantly experiencing changes/temporariness in yourbody. Who can experience that? Only that element (Self) which ispermanent and changeless and who is looking separately canexperience so..

So you are permanent. You are witness. You are changeless. You arenot body. You exist both with or without body. You exist.

Similarly God is also permanent. God is also witness. God is alsochangeless. God exists both with or without body. God exists.

So you exist. At present you are existing Mr Sarphod Now in yourbody. In which part of the body you are existing Mr Sarphod? Inwhich part of the body you are not existing Mr Sarphod? In fact youare existing everywhere in the body.

God exists everywhere in the universe as you exist everywhere inthe body.

Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B------------------------------By summery of GITA: "Tat Twam Asi" or 'That You Are'This logic is explained by Many in different way, as Jesus : "Keepyour self as pure as a Temple, so that GOD can reside in you"As the world today is more scientific, we require proof by ourSenses.No machine can prove Logic.By psychologist EEG machine shows that Yog has a point when we gainenergy from vast outer energy when we Join our inner energy during ameditative state.Todays scientific terms were not expressed before. So we can saypositive Energy in us and arround is GOD.This GOD creates and increases, but the negative energy will growonly to destroy and eliminate named 'devil' !The different State of Mind or Self is depicted in the Epics ofRamayana and Mahabharata by the characters playing in the theatre ofthis World.The Conditions of Heaven and Hell are also due to this state of self.

'Tat Twam Asi' in definition of GOD as 'Bramah-Vishnu-Maheshwar' isalso what we see in us.Psychological mind as Male-Female has in us as a Child, Learning andCreating with help of 'Sarswati-Bramah'. Then as we are in ourYouth, we Earn and Run our life with the help of 'Laxmi-Vishnu'. Atthe end of life our Old age, Eliminate and Destroy many beliefs withthe help of 'Shakti-Shiv'. Thus we prepare our self for the nextbirth. The Energy, called 'spirit' by many, is indistructible andchange form. We can ralise it and can even see as Vivekananda(nonbeliever of statue) was shown by Guru Ramakrishna(ardent idolworshiper). The idol is the Mirror to see our self !--RegardsSwapan PURKAYASTHA

 

--------------------------------PRIOR POSTING

Dear Sarphod:

I adore your persistence to what you think is right - that is a goodquality to seek truth. At the same time, I am a bit disappointed inits lopsidedness! It is not clear what you want, frankly.

I have two questions for you: Are you afraid of "God"? Do you urgefor "God"?

If "YES" to any of these questions, you have a problem. You can'tstick to your current logical conviction. It is obvious that yourcurrent logical conviction irrespective of its self-proclaimedexcellence is JUST NOT DOING ITS JOB :(. Your logical provess canclaim accolades ONLY IF it removes your fears and quench yourdesires.If not removal, at least a nominal reduction in their intensity iswarranted ... if your intellect is working straight.

If "NO" to any of these questions, I see a bigger problem. Why areyou confusing yourself with these questions. That "NO" becomesmeaningless just because you are incapable of letting the veryquestions go! The very reason you are raising these questions provethat you are infested either by fear or by desire or by bothregarding "God". THAT IS EXCELLENT!

Then, it is "YOUR" primary responsibility to address the same. As Imentioned earlier, your current intellect is incapable of helping youout. Then, you have to make a shift in your thinking to inspect theignorance harbored within. Pardon me for calling it ignorance. But,the fact is ... it is. Inherent fears and desires can never let anindividual happy. They create the turbulence within in terms ofthemselves. The existence of miseries is proof enough that we are notapplying our intellect in the right direction. After all, it iscommon sense that we do everything ONLY FOR ONE REASON - to behappy. I am sure you agree with it.

The question is are you happy with these questions as such or are youreally interested in a possible solution. If you are happy with thesequestions, be happy. You can never get the solution though! If youreally need a solution, QUESTION the very questions. That is the onlyway out left for you to be happy. Do you have any other choice? Ifyou have, please pursue. Being happy is the bottom line of allactions ... being happy ... being happy but nothing else.

Nobody can instruct you what God Is! You have to figure it outyourself.

I don't know who misled you that this or anything specific "is adevine forum" as if anything else is not! If you seek divinity,everything is devine. If not, some may claim "divinity" as if therest is not. Please do not get trapped into such notions ... if youreally want to seek clarity regarding your question. Question yourquestions ... TRUTHFULLY. You will see the end of the tunnel.

Again, PLEASE DO NOT EXPECT OR INSIST FOR EXPLICIT INSTRUCTIONSREGARDING GOD. YOU WILL NOT GET ANY ANSWER ... UNLESSS ... YOU SEE ITWITHIN YOURSELF! The only suggestion I can make is ... look for ITwithin. Because, looking out all these years has seemingly remainedfutile! There is no point in digging into others' psyche when mine isnot receptive enough. If I insist to continue, I can guarantee myselfof more confusion to come!! Because ... GOD cannot be held within any"psyche" as such.

Anyway, just few suggestions to think about ... think about it if youwant ... ONLY IF YOU WANT.

All The Best.

Respects.

Naga Narayana

 

PRIOR POSTINGDear "Sadhaks" (?)

Why my simple questions are not getting answered. Shashikalajeeasked me some questions, instead of replying to me. I , upon theadvice of my Begum Saahiba humbly replied to her. Now instead ofresponding to me, she has given a conversation between a son and hismother. My Begum is insisting to me that I should again and againread that. OK I will do that. But let me answer her anotherquestion. I have not desired to smell "flower of sky" , because itdoes not exist. Sometimes I feel that both my Begum Sahibaa and youSadhaks have lost mind. What a funny question Shashikalajee hasasked. How can I desire or talk or know about a thing which doesn"texist? This is my basic fundamental and solid argument. Vyas N B isgiving indicators which require me to think. I am thinking. But thebest among you is Mike Keenor. He told me to remain solid. Headviced me to remain tenacious, merciless and hang on. I am hangingon. But then why Vineet Sarvottam told me lies? Varun Paprunia gavehim a fitting reply. Varun - you are very good. This Pratap Bhattis rebuking me. Why? What is my fault. On one hand you are simplygiving me round round answers. On other hand you are passingjudgement. Is this a conduct of a sadhak. Please reply to me. Orsay - none of you have capacity to answer my simple questions. MyBegum Sahibaa has already started crying. Have mercy on her atleast. But Mike praised me. He called me "brilliant".

Waiting for answers.

Sarphod Tabalchi---------------------------We all struggle with these questions. The answers I found logical isthis: There is something beyond mind and matter. Some will call thatsomething Omnipotent, Omniscient, Omnipresent. Others will call itrandom nothing. Another question one hears is why do I want to knowThat Something. To Know, or to Control it? Here in lies the paradoxand answer: If it is to know only: He is right there with you,within you: The Life, Love Peace. If it is to control so that wecontrol our surrounding: That is the struggle of Ego. Arjuna had tosee the Universal form to get over the final hurdle.Jay Shree Krishna.

Hemendra Parikh-------------------------------Dear devotees of Lord Krishna,The discussion is interesting. I learned the gita much better afterseeing the life experience of a realized lady, who had darshan ofLord Krishna ( first darshan of Lords feet after chanting a slokafrom 10 th chapter of Gita for 30,000 times continuously for 30days ). Her conversations with the Lord have been recorded inTamil, and can be shared with the group if interested.With kind regards,Sincerely,P.Vivekanandan-------------------------------

Try Brahmacharya ( the vow of celibacy in thought, word and deed, bywhich one attains Self-realisation or reaches Brahman) and you willsee for yourself the value.

The Srutis declare: "Naayam Atma balaheenena labhyah - This Atman isnot attainable by a weak man." In the Gita you willfind: "Yadichhanto brahmacharyam charanti - That desiring whichBrahmacharya is performed" (Chap. VIII-11). "Trividham narakasyedamdvaram nasanamatmanah; kamah krodhastatha lobhastasmad etat trayamtyajet - O Arjuna! Triple is the gate of the hell, destructive ofthe Self; lust, wrath and greed: therefore let man renounce thesethree" (Chap. XVI-21). "Jahi satrum mahabaho kamarupam durasadam -Kill this powerful enemy, passion, by the observance ofBrahmacharya" (Chap. III-43).

If we are determined to attain the goal of life by leading a purelife, we must keep this mind busily engaged in Divine thoughts,concentration, meditation, study and service of humanity.

It is difficult to eradicate lust. But you need not despair even abit. Have faith in God, in His Name and in His grace. Lust cannot becompletely rooted out of the mind except by the grace of the Lord.You are bound to succeed if you have faith in Him. The Divine Graceis needed. God helps those who help themselves.

Until man continues to cling to worldliness, Paramatma cannot begrasped by him.

You can read more about this in the "Easy Steps to Yoga" by SriSwami Sivananda.chirag almoula

--------------------------------PRIOR POSTING

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!Tabalchiji, with all the respect for you and questions, I may pointout that no one can make anyone see anything let alone God if thatperson doesn't want to see. It seems like you may be insistent uponseeing God in the way you want to see.Please forgive me if I am wrong, but as a friend I am saying. Itseems like you may not have read the postings with open mind, withthe desire to know the truth. Open mind doesn't mean accepting, itmeans you must give a fair reading/hearing and then asking pertinentquestions or raise doubts based on what is read. Here your responsesindicate you have decided that God cannot exist for you if youcannot see or have some logic to prove God's existence. One has tosee that "seeing God" means deep understanding of intuitive naturein this context where mind being limited cannot comprehend. It hasto be prepared to be open. Our conditioned mind is incapable ofgrasping truth.Some of us provided solid logic, but it still fell short to make yousee the pointers.I said one cannot say "I don't see God" without knowing what God heis looking that he cannot find. One has to know what one wants tosee, right? One can say "I don't know God, tell me what/where Ishould look, and how to recognize". It is different than show meGod, right?Once again, God is the Conscious/Intelligent Existence as reflectedin our experience of "I am" right now as you read these words. Infirst posting, dialogue was used to illustrate it as a solid proofone cannot deny.There are ways to experience God for which senses-mind-intellect isnot capable like they are for knowing objects. Nevertheless, thereis proof of God more reliable than that.But this point didn't make any impression.I request you with humility to re-read responses again and see whathappens!Namaskar..............Pratap Bhatt-------------------------------Hare Krishna

Okay Mr. Sarphod,

Let's put God's existence out of equation for a moment and onlydiscuss about sample/logics/rationales w.r.t. YOUR existence.

I AM

Well, you don't have any doubt in your existence, right? Your bodyhas changed and it is rapidly changing every second. But Mr.Sarphod, is you also changing with the body? You are certainly notchanging with it because if you were changing then who would haveknown the change in body? You are that changeless element who knowsthe change in body. Isn't it? Childhood, youth, old age are thechanging phases of the body but you are that changeless element whois witness to all these changes. It is a law that only a changelesselement can perceive the ever-changing element. My question - Whatis the basis of your never-changing existence? If you considerbody's existence as your existence then you are defying all logic,because body is changing every second!!!

I and MINE

It is a law that whatever is mine, it is never I. For example youconsider your house, car, wife, children etc. as mine but you neverconsider them as I. But in the case of body you say 'my hands, mylegs, my stomach, my ears, my eyes, my throat etc.' andsimultaneously you also consider it as 'I' e.g. I am not feelingwell. You establish two transversal relationships with the body,that of 'I' and 'MINE'. Whichever thing is mine it is always apart(separate) from you, and that thing which is separate from you, howcan it be I? This body is also apart from you but still you call itas I. Is this logical?

Mr. Sarphod, now I wish to see you. Can you show me yourself???Ohh... please don't show me that body which you claim it as mine. Iwant to see that Mr. Sarphod who claims the body as mine. In otherwords, I want to see that element which you refer to as I?

Before that I am eager to know whether you have ever seen yourself.According to you anything that exists is perceptible. So Mr.Sarphod, with which instrument have you seen yourself?

If you have not seen yourself then, well ..... do you exist ?????

And at last one more question- Whose name is Sarphod - body oryourself?

Mr. Sarphod, with your logics/samples/rationales etc., first prove

1. Your existence.2. The basis of your existence.3. The instrument with which you have seen/felt your existence.

Then we will also discuss about God's existence....

As Sarphodji is contemplating over his existence, in the mean time,those sadhaks whose faith in God has dwindled with his questions,they are requested to read this Sadhaka postingsadhaka/message/2108

Hare KrishnaVarun P. Paprunia-------------------------------

Jai Hanuman

(Shrimad Bhagvad Geeta- Marathi Edition- By Saint Gyaaneshwarji-Chapter 13- Kalyaan- By Narainduttji Gaur )

Jeeva ( J) (We all- as referred in BG 15:7) :

Mom pls tell me , when I was born?

Maya , Mother Nature, Prakrati, Illusion (As referred in BG 7: 13/14)( M ) :

( Irritated) What non sense! Is it some thing to be told? (By a Momto Son?)

J: If mother doesn't tell, who will?

M: How to tell you? I came only after you !

J: Typical Mom ! Means- I came first and then you? Surprising? Isn'tit?

M: You won't understand. Be silent and sleep!

J: Come On ! First me ..! And then You ...!! (How can it be?) Plstell me the story ! Please !!

M: I told you. You won't understand! Many big people even could not.

J: Ok ! Then my Father can let me understand. Take me to Him, please.

M: ( Curtly) Stop this song of Father, Father. Your Father is Fatheronly for the name sake.In fact, I have to do every thing.

J: Does He not do anything?

M: What can He do? He is old, ancient, poor fellow (eternal) ! Thentotally actionless! Absolutely non-doer! Neither hands, nor legs,nor eyes, nor ears! Nothing in fact! Look Kid ! Whatever colour ,form etc of the world which you are seeing is my miracle, my form,my competence, my work ! Ok? Your Father has neither any form, norany beauty. What beauty He can impart to the world?

J: But all say that He is the real Creator. See Mom! Whatever is myFather, He is my Father! Ok? His insult...??

M: Insult! What insult? Whose insult? One who does not have anycaste or creed, any family or varna, any city or village- what canbe His respect or disrespect?

J: How bad He will feel, if He listens to what you are saying?

M: Even if He gets annoyed, what can He do? One who neither moves,nor walks, nor travels, nor laughs, nor cries, nor speaks, neitherany juice, nor any taste, nor any play !!! This entireexhibition/show I run, Dear Son !!

J But out there on Gate (of the circus) His name is written, O Mom !!

M: Ultimately you will take side of your Father only. Afterall youare His son!

J: O Mom of the Universe! Why did not you put name of yours on thefront gate of this Great Circus? ( The world)

M: How to put my name. This is the real trgedy. You won'tunderstand, Son. I, the creator and controller of uncountableuniverses can not do any thing by my name!! (Ramcharitmanas- 5/21/4)

J: Don't be sad and sorry Mom! What is the matter?

M: It is very secret, Son! If by seeing my banner outside the gate,if somebody wants to meet with me, he will be disappointed. Son!Please understand my pain. One is lazy ( does nothing), has noorgans, is actionless- those who want to search such (an element)person , they search Him merely by His name! (Ramcharitmanas-1/26/2). But to me, even when I am controlling entire sentient andinsentient world, if some body wants to search, CANNOT find! Cannotsearch.

J: Why not Mom?

M: (With tears in her eyes) Because, in reality, I don't exist. I amfalse. I am asat. I am non existent. My "not being" is my "being".Whatever is not- I am that. I am no-thing.

J: And whatever is there, that is who? Who is that?

M: He is your Father, Son!

J: (In mind, talking with himself only, Son thinks/says - Hats offto you Mom! When you don't exist, then this is the scene of theworld that even Lord Shiva , Brahma are afraid of you -Ramcharitmanas 7/71/8- had you existed "actually" Mom then.....)

O my No-thing Mom! When you don't even exist , then on whose poweryou run this circus called the world?

M: What to tell you, Son? I can tell you only this much that, ofWhose a mere flicker of eyebrow, I do rule the uncountableuniverses, I can't dare/ don't have courage to face Him. I do runthis circus only on His strength.

J : O My Unconquerable Mom! My hundreds of Pranaams to you. Blessme , O Mom! So that I may get my Father!!

While bowing and doing Pranaams to his mother, Jeeva becametranquilised and then in the background divine music played-

"MAAMEVA YA PRAPADYANTE, MAYAMETAM TARANTI YE "

(BG 7:14)

He was He only!

Namaste Jee.

Jee JeeShashikala--------------------------------Shri Hari-

My dear Sarphodji,

A few points to consider, I have said I have been touched by theDivine,(just one way of putting it), such Grace is life changing, Icould be lying or be mad,(I tell the truth), but I know just byreading the things fellow Sadhaks have written that I AM NOT ALONE.Some people come to Bhagwan with ease and joy others take the path offire so to speak, (the hard miles).

In the west there is an expression,'The Dark Night of The Soul', andyes! If it is known in the west it is most absolutely known in theIndian Traditions.(I think Arjuna's predicament reflects that),I willstay using the terminology to which I am most familiar.You say you are deserted, you are not deserted, the Brethren have notdeserted you, and in the Darkest Moment of the Soul, there is a lightshining, that light comes from 'That', which will wash away youtears, 'That' which will break your heart so that you can bemended. Your arguments are not solid dear Brother, not to those thathave felt the embrace of The Beloved. Your inflexibility, combinedwith your determined search, may well introduce you to 'The DarkNight...', the very ONE you rebuked the most, will be the one thatrescues you. I speak from experience not from books.

With Respect and Divine Love,

Mike Keenor

 

PRIOR POSTINGHari Om

If sadhaks can concentrate on giving short pointers / rationalewhich establishes the existence of Supreme Power it will help allin being definitive, have reference material and it will alsostrengthen faith. Ego, Intellect and Mind don't let you agree thateasily. And who knows who may need in the coming turbulent era ofKaliyug, that is lacking in faith and belief. Let us get united.

From discourses of Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj (Taat Shree), whom Ihave solely relied on for a number of years -

Every human being wants the following:

1) To "live for ever". This is desire for SAT (existence). Fear ofdeath is the indicator of that desire.2) To know every thing. No one wants to be unknowlegeable. This isdesire for CHIT (Knowledge).3) To be happy. No one wants to be unhappy. This is desire forANANDA.

Any doubt Mr Sarphod? Now if there is a desire then the element tofulfill that desire must also be there. There must be some one /some element which enables you to "live for ever", to be all knowingand to be ever blissful. Had such an element not existed, we wouldnot have had the desire for the same.

Paramatma is SAT-CHIT-ANANDA.(Sachchidananda)

Raam! Raam!! Raam!!!

To be continued.

Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B------------------------------

Dear Tabalchi ji,

According to J. Krishnamurti "modern so called educated" people wanta little bit of intellectual amusement and therefore they indulge inmeaningless discussions about God and such matters. God cannot bediscussed in this manner, because That Absolute Truth (giveIt/Her/Him any name) is beyond description.Your all the six questions are like the enquiries of a "fullstomach" tourist without an iota of appetite going through the menu,or reading it aloud with his co-friends. If you are really thirstyyou will not indulge in such childish questions about water, butwill try your best to drink it.

I suggest you read Uncommon Wisdom and other books by Dr Capra (aphysic scientist) who has quoted from our Sanskrit literature aboutGod, or read A Brief History of Time by Hawking Stephens (well knownexpert on dark hole and universe) to know the concept of time andspace. At least do go through some writings by Nobel laureate DrEdington (a scientist). Only then, you can be a little serious aboutexploring the great Absolute Truth. Become "jyan-vijyan-triptah" andonly then we can walk together on this spiritual quest.

Regards,Suresh C. Sharma------------------------

Sir,You are asking the oldest question ever being asked. See aroundyou, a sperm has made you upto approximately 6 feet. Who designedthis project and process. Your father and mother only are tools.Inquire within and get the answer.

surender syal--------------------------------

Mitro,Why has this God become famous as "HE" why not "she" or "IT"or "Nothing"? Today's generation will not believe in gibberishbakwaas . The paradox is every religion, every saint says that Godis ONE. But even within Hindus philosophy we see thousands of gods(many names and forms). If God is One then why all the differencesand the fights? How come? Ramchander Homma

------------------------------I agree with Luca Brasi that I should be fairly replied. I haveasked a lot of questions. I want proof/logic and I want to know Howis that Supreme. I want sample. I want rationale. My Begum Saahibaaalso told me that I am head breaker like your Shashikaljee told me.But I never agreed with her so far. I never admitted this version.I am not head or skull breaker. My name suggests that I am mindfixer. Any way how the name matters? I am what I am. I accept myparents because even if I dont remember my birth, they rememberthat. They know that I am their child. I can see them. I can feelthem. I can experience them. I can recognise them. That is why theyare my parents. Where is God? How can I accept God on the groundsthat since I did not know my parents at the time of birth and Iaccepted hence I should accept God also. Children are children. Theydont understand. But I am adult. I understand. My Begum Sahibaacould not satisfy me and hence she asked me to get in touch with youShe said you will satisfy me.I checked with her that I am notsatisfied even after, because I have MOST SOLID arguments, thenwhat? Even my father deserted me because he could not satisfy me.She said such situation will not arise. If I cant see , I cantaccept. Prove to me how one can accept without seeing or feeling orexperiencing or logic or rationale or basis. At least I should feelor experience. Even if my parents were dead at the time of birth,still I would accept that because how can I come without them onthis earth. What is your answer? Pratap or Vineet or Mike orShashikala. My Begum Sahibaa said few things regarding observationsof Vineet also. Please reply- Sadhaks of this selfproclaimed "Divine" site. Dont go by my name. Even my BegumSaahibaa complains regarding my name. What can I do regarding myname Jee?

Sarphod Tabalchi

PRIOR POSTINGHare Krishna

Sarphodji,

Not only can Parmatma be an individual he can also be a fish(Matsya-avatar), a tortoise (Kachchap-avatar), a pig (varaha-avatar),a half lion-half man (Narsimha-avatar) and what not!!!According to Gita, not only can a devotee see God but also know Himand also enter into Him.

Arjuna saidO universal form, O thousand-armed Lord, I wish to see You in Yourfour-armed form, with diadem on your head with club, wheel, conch andlotus flower in Your hands. I long to see You in that form. (11.46)

Sanjaya saidThe Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krishna, having spoken thus toArjuna, displayed His real four-armed form and at last showed Histwo-armed form, thus encouraging the fearful Arjuna. (11.50)

Lord Krishna said:My dear Arjuna, this form of Mine you are now seeing is verydifficultto behold. Even the demigods are ever seeking the opportunity to seethis form, which is so dear.Neither by the study of Vedas, nor by penance, nor by charity, noreven by rituals can I be seen in this form (with four-arms), as Youhave seen Me.O valiant Arjuna, through single-divided devotion, however, I can beseen in this form (with four-arms), known in essence and even enteredinto.My dear Arjuna, he who performs all his duties for Me, depends on Me,is devoted to Me, has no attachment, and is free from malice towardsall beings, reaches Me. (11.52-55)

Please give special attention to the last 2 verses. This will answeryour question of knowing and seeing God.

Yes, I have also read the same in Swamiji's book which your wife hasstated. I consider it to be true because I believe in Swamiji'swords.

Hare KrishnaVarun P. Paprunia------------------------------

Hari Om

No! Sarphodji. Those who want to learn should read carefully andshould learn also to be patient. All sadhaks upto now have givenexcellent observations. I have also given you logics/pointers andwillcontinue to give you till you get satisfied. I agree with Luca thatthere must be logics/rationale existing. It is another matter, as MrVineet stated, that they are pointless once you proceed ahead. Butstill questions are questions and your insistence , though, odd butstill should be respected. Your "Begum Sahibaa" appears to havedirected herself to peace. I wish you understood the hidden affectionin the in the message of Mike Keenor to you. Here are morelogics/pointers to you:

3. In life, we always find a higher person than ourselves. In everyfield a higher person than one is existing. See around you, you willfind this statement to be true. Even the President of USA can not say"I am the Highest". Always a better /higher person than you isexisting. Now where does this "highness" end. If there is sense ofhighness , then there must be an element which is "highest". God isthat element. God is the HIGHEST.

4. You always need some "shelter" to survive. In the childhood youneed shelter of parents, teacher, etc. Then of education, ability,wife, money, home, employers, what not. In old age, you need wife,children, stick, doctor, medicines, health etc Sujects change but notthe need for shelter.. If there is consistent need for shelter , thenthere must be an element existing of whose shelter is the ultimateshelter. Is not it Mr Sarphod. ( You should argue on such inprinciplepoints. Check up with you Begum Sahibaa.) ? If you are thirsty ,theremust be water existing on the planet. Now when you need always someshelter or other, then there must be an element which can bedescribedas " Highest Shelter available "! God is "PARAM ASHRAYA DATA" Giverof that shelter. If you take shelter of God, no other shelter will benecessary,

5. We always want to be perfect. There is no doubt on that. But thereis also no doubt regarding the fact that we err. In fact "to err ishuman" -this saying is prevalent on this planet from time immemorial.Now if there is a desire to become perfect then there must exist anelement which is most perfect. Did you ever hear that there was adifference of a fraction of a second even in timings of Sun rise andSun set? Is not everything moving to the perfection? Who can be moreperfect except God. God is the MOST PERFECT.

To be continued till you say "I am satisfied"

As regards your observation that "Nature" also creates/controls-answer is that whether you believe that nature has "knowledge"? Ifyes, then that nature is our God. In our religion ( I don't know yourreligion) SHAKTI is God also. But if according to you , the INERTNATURE has no knowledge, then you have to accept God. Can inertnaturetake care of so many souls, operate Law of Karma, provide food to somany creatures? If Yes- I don't mind calling that Nature to be God.After all it is a matter only of "terminology". If no then you mustaccept that IF THERE IS DESIRE / NEED IN YOU TO BE PERFECT OR TO TAKESHELTER OR TO SEEK HIGHNESS then there exists an element to fulfilthat desire. That element is called " GOD/ PARAMATMA" . Logical ?Doesit appeal to your logic Mr Sarphod? Check up with your Begum Sahibaaand come back. Your arguments shall exhaust, not our arguments- besure on this. After all you are on GT Site !

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B-------------------------------

Dear Sarphod:

Wonderful! I like your guts to put this question across!! I wasstartled to start with and even alarmed as I contemplated "thanksfor triggering the turbulence from which proceeds the peace asalways."

Son goes to father and asks, "Father, what is God?" Fatheranswered, "Whatever drives your life, whatever sustains your lifeand whatever absorbs your life is verily God my child. Think aboutIt!" The father was wise enough not to instruct what God is. The sonpromptly contemplates in what his father said and came back, "Father,fear drives all the lives. Fear sustains all the lives. Fear absorbsall the life. Therefore, fear should be the god." Fatherremarks, "Good job! Keep thinking." The son not knowing whether hisrevelation was conclusive or not continues to contemplate. Son comesback to father and declares, "Father, desire drives all the lives,desire sustains all the lives and desire absorbs all the lives.Therefore, the desire should be the god." Father remarks again, Goodjob! Keep thinking." The son does not feel the conclusiveappreciation regarding the god - is it fear or desire? He continuesto contemplate and realizes that, the happiness drives all thelives. Happiness sustains all the lives. And, happiness absorbs allthe lives. Therefore happiness should be the god.

Now he does not go back to his father as he has already felt thewisdom behind his father's remarks. God is not something that can betaught to, or preached to or transferred to anybody. It is thenotion within ... it is the imagination within ... it is thedeliberation within ... it is the understanding within ... it is theappreciation within ... IT IS THE PRESENCE WITHIN in its core. Theson, accepting the challenge from his father to use the body, sensesand mind blessed to him, continues to contemplate.

He has seen the driving force, sustenance strength and absorptionpower in the fear, in the desire as well as in the happiness. Hesees that the three divinities of creation, sustenance,andabsorption transcend the boundaries of his existential fears,desires and happiness altogether integrating the whole universe ofknowns as well as unknowns - manifested as well as unmanifested -mitigating the differences that were once prominent amongst thethree phases of life - fear, desire and happiness.

Then starts another dilemma - who is the god amongst these threedivinites that seem to determine what life is? Driving Force orSustenance Strength or Absorption Power? Again, he approaches hisfather, the wisdom established within to contemplate on the dilemma.

The driving force comes first to claim the unclaimed post of TheGod. On ruthless examination, the driving force starts wonderingaloud that it itself should have been driven by something else. Thenew driving force wonders the same and so on. The driving force digsup an infinite legacy of its own kind beneath lost in the oblivionof the past. It returns back in frustration not withstanding whatthe driving force could really be.

The absorption power jumps in next to claim the still unclaimed postof The God. Again, the wisdom starts the same gruelling scrutiny.The power under sharp vigilence starts whithering away to wonder ifit absorbs everything there should be something to absorb itself.The new absorbing power wonders the same way and so on. Theabsorption power piles up an infinite heirarchy of its own kindabove lost in the oblivion of the future. It returns back infrustration not withstanding what the absorption power could everbe.

The empty throne is still awaiting to be filled. The sustenancestrength walks to claim the post in confidence. The valiant wisdomdoes its job with no resistance subjecting the life sustenancepower in suspension of its examination. The sustencance strengthwhich provides strength to all the life around starts wondering whatis the source of its own strength and sustenance. The new source ofthe strength resounds the same wonder what could be the source ofstrength. The sustenance strength keeps jumping from on fold toanother all around the universe that is within its control to seekitself folding itself in infinitude lost in the vast presence. Itreturns back in frustration not withstanding what the sustenancestrength could ever be.

Seeing the crest-fallen champions of life not realizing their owntrue nature around, the throne of The God starts fading intosilence. The wisdom starts wondering in itself. Is it not thedriving force as well as the sustenance strength as well as theabsorption power all the time all around? Suddenly, the demarkationbetween the three divinities that was once so thick and opaquestarts giving away to reveal the force, strength and power ofcreation, sustenance and absorption in itself and hence in everything that is perceieved ever.

The realized wisdom gets back and declares. Never ever ignore yourfears. Never ever ignore your desires. Never ever ignore yourhappiness. Ever be with your fears, desires and happiness as youare. Then you see the unison amongst your fears, desires and joysand hence in all your emotions, relations and existence within aswell as around. Then you see all the boundaries separating yournotions dissolve in the very wisdom where you dwell upon. Being whatyou are in spite of your apparent variances of life naturallytranscends all the barriers built by your cognition acrosseverything to reveal THE ONE everywhere and everywhence. Then thevery post of God does not appear to be real anymore which seemed themost troublesome question to start with.

God remains evasive till you drift away from what you are in vainsearching whatever IT could be! Therefore, my dear friend, betterpause in your frenzy search and look around and look within … bewhat you are. Then God is everything … not just a notion ... notjust a faith ... not just a doubt ... but, everything ... EVERYTHINGWITH NO EXCEPTION. If you remain what you are, IT is all-inclusive.If you attempt to search for it, IT becomes all-exclusive. In otherwords, IT is EVERYTHING in your presence; and IT is NOTHING in yourperception.

Respects.

Naga Narayana--------------------------------Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!Let us address one aspect of Tabalchiji's issues with responses ofsadhakas received so far!To be able to see God, one needs to recognize God upon seeinganything, right? If one says I don't see God, one is looking for whatone "thinks" God is in whatever one is looking at. For God to be"that" it will be very very limiting to God, because what we think isso limited even if it is some grand image of God. That is notlogical, right?Now when Swamiji says Goenkaji and Poddarji had darshana of God, whatdoes it mean?It means the deep understanding of what God is and subsequentrealization that "my God, there is nothing else but only God IS inthe disguise of the Cosmos" that sees through that individual.The individual's vision has changed entirely, where he/she sawobjects of the world before, now he sees only Divinity in the sameforms. It is our experience that what we believe out there, we tendto see only that through our being closed minded. Similarly when weunderstand God, this "Understanding" opens up the very mind who seesGod everywhere, individual is merely a channel God is using.Other aspects of issues will see later....Namaskar............Pratap Bhatt

-------------------------Shree Hari-

Sarphodji,

Great! You are still questioning brilliant!I have read the responses from our brethren, great beauty full ofdivine love. But I will stick to the hared nosed roll,(look past itdear friend).If someone asked me to show her an oak tree, and I gave her an acorn,what would she say I wonder? Of course the blueprint for the wholetree is in the acorn, one also one wonders, did the first oak treehave an acorn or the first acorn have an oak tree?Question 6 if resolved is the platform upon which all the otherquestion can be answered it seems to me.I can only tell you how I came to be touched be The Divine, that wasby my search into paradoxes, like the universe, like the acorn.I once mentioned a man I met in unusual circumstance. It was about3amin a large air traffic control room, very few controllers in the roomat that time. I was waiting to get clearance to work on a console(todo annual technical checks). There across the room was thiscontroller, He had his headset on,(with a long lead), he wasperforming asanas, (within the restriction), "trying to stay awake?"Iasked, "no he boomed", we started to talk. We had 'Much' in common,wedeveloped a dialog from then on , it was he who suggested I readBhagavad Gita,(I humbly suggest you do also).He once said to me with his booming humorous voice, "Mike if peoplecould her us they would think we're 'Lunatics'.What we had in common at the root, was our hunger for the truth, andthe courage, 'to ride the tiger".We were an unlikely pair from a world view, he was a Sri Lankan, meanAnglo Celt, especially if one could here us talking, but we werebrothers of the spirit.There is much I could talk of, but I must bow to the respectedmoderator.

With Respect and Divine Love,

Mike Keenor-Mr Sarphod ! So you are a male as well as married ! Very good Jee !

It is a good habit to act in accordance with advice your Begum. Howdid she leave you alone? Do you have books of Swamiji RamsukhdasjiMaharaj at your home? Your “Begum†had those books according toyou.Did you read them? Or your Begum only reads them? By the way didyou ever think about or did you ever have a desire to smell “flowerof sky†? Why did you not think about flower of sky or desired tosmell it ? Reply. This is a question to you. Also reply if you alwaysbelieve only after “seeing†?

Let us know as to how you can get satisfied according to you?. Whatmethodology suits your mind.? How do you generally feel regardingthis world,mind, intellect, body etc etc ? How according to you suchabig world is operating ? Do you think there are some laws governingthis world? Keep also giving your observations , counter arguments onEACH AND EVERY response which is given to you. Otherwise how will weknow whether the cure has taken place? Understood? You can consultyour Begum also before replying to my queries. Always tell us whatyour Begum told you and what is your own observation. Why don’t youtell your Begum also to become member and start Satsanga? Will thatnot be better? What is her kind name, Jee?

Namaste Jee.

Jee JeeShashikalaDear Sadhakas, Namaste!Another aspect of issues raised by Tabalchiji can be answered basedonwhat sadhakas already have echoed in their responses.The most important thing is to know that God is not "something","somewhere" and "some times". It is at the core of our being, anintimate experience which is The Knowingness without anything known.In otherwords, God cannot be known as another limited object,nevertheless, is known as "knowingness" in us by virtue of justbeing.For example, if someone were to ask you, can you show me Love, Peace,Compassion, Beauty, Goodness etc "out there"? You cann't! They areexperiences within us that we attribute to things/situations etcoutside which may have triggered them. Some philosopher rightly said"From the beginning, not a thing is!" Please, please, see the truthofthis. We are connected to the world only through Being Conscious ofsomething or other which we conceptualize as subjectexperiencer(mind-body), and objects experienced, both thought asseparate. Such division is not experiential.Just as these experiences are not seen "out there", but are truelyhappening in our consciousness, God cannot be seen, as separate fromConsciousness.Sun, for example, is nothing but the experience of light and heat,conceptualized as "Sun" out there, for practical purpose. This isalsotrue for all apparant objects of the world.God or Consciousness or Atman, are also such conceptual words of themost intimate Wordless Experience! They are good pointers though!When people engage in services to help others who are victims ofdisasters, diseases, violence, wars, terrorism etc etc who motivatestheir actions? Unconditional Love and Goodness of the heart! Peoplewho help to preserve natural environment, forests, animals, etc etcare also inspired by the same Love and Goodness!Can we not call Unconditional Love and Goodness of the heart God?Are those who bring such disasters to "apparant others" also God, ifall is God?They are also, yes, but unfortunately "they" have not understood yetthat they are!In God's world, only God exists playing "others", so who does what towhom?Try doing evil acts after understanding deep within that all of us,nature included, together, not individually, are God! One cannot!

Namaskar...........Pratap Bhatt

-PRIOR POSITINGDear Sadhak,Excellent explanation has been given by sadhak Pratapji....Excellent!If the parents donot know GOD how can they teach the kids?Swamiji says if something is lying in darkness we can take a deepakwith us to see it but to see a deepak(lamp) we donot need anotherdeepak. Same way the objects of this whole worlds can beseen/experienced through the "SELF" but to know this SELF we donotneed anything from the world( mind/body/intellect etc.) Only SELFknows it SELF.1. Where is God I have never seen Him?He is not HE, He is "I". When we can see/know who am I we cansee/know who is God.Indeed, You alone know Yourself by Your own potencies, O origin ofall, Lord of all beings, God of gods, O Supreme Person, Lord of theuniverse! Ch10:152. Who has seen Him?All realized people have known HIM.Some claim that they have seenHIM too.Swami Vivekananda asked this question to everyone he met-Have youseen God ? All answers negative except Ramkrishna Paramhansa.He said-"Yes I have seen God as clearly as I am seeing you right now."Listening to this Narendra became his disciple.3. How is He?With a single fragment of Myself I pervade and support this entireuniverse.Ch10:424. If I dont know how do I accept?Then go ahead follow the path shown to us by Swamiji or any realizedsoul, and know Him first, then accept.5. God is a term coined by elders to put moral shackles over us sothat we may indulge in goodness.What's wrong with that ? Accept God ,be righteous and be Arjuna ordonot accept Him, be Duryodhana - choice is yours.6. There has to be some basis for his existence? What are the logicswhich point towards the existence of God? From where to pick thethread?Start with meditation and Gita. Follow the path shown by Him in Gita-Karma Yoga, Gyaan Yoga or Bhakti Yoga. Establish yr self in YOGA.....

No one can force any one to believe. Kids learn by imitation. Leadyr own life according to Dharma,and kids will pick it up.Beforegiving them tatva Gyaan(absolute knowledge),its better to sit withthem and watch Ramayana, Krishna, Mahabharata and let them learn bythe character of our Sagun Sakaar Bhagwaan(God with Forms). If theycan learn from Rama or Krishna, they will be on right path and willget their realization at their own speed.with lots of Love,a sadhikaSadhna Karigar

--------------------------------Jai Hanuman

Oye What a question Jee!!. As good as the name of thequestioner!! "Sarphod" in Hindi means skull breaker ! "Tablachi"means he who plays treble. Unique Jee !! Namaste Sarphodji !!Welcome Jee ! There is music everywhere ! Who kept such a classicname Jee ? Father? OK, pick the thread from father only.

How do I accept if I don't know? Accept just as you accepted someone to be your father without knowing anything about him. Don't sayplease- "that children now a days need more than belief to accept".That, I am afraid, is not as classic a statement as is even yourkind name. Fact is that children practice only belief and solidbelief. They are masters of belief - and teachers of entire humanityon this subject of belief. Poor adults need proof. What kind ofproof was solicited by you in accepting some one to be your fatheror some name to be mine or for that purpose by "the children of nowa days"- say son of Sarphod Tablachi, if any ??

Do you "know" as to who is your father and who is your mother? Whatproof or rationale you can give to support your acceptance of Mr Xas your father?

You asked "from where to pick the thread". I reply to you that youpick the thread from yourself and your Dear Father. Come On !

Reply now! Argue !!

Namaste Jee

Jee JeeShashikala-------------------------------Mr.Pratapji Bhatt has explained the existance of God beautifully.Itis very much in sync with Sri Sri Paramhansa Yogananda's explanationin his books-"Autobiography of a yogi" and "Man's eternal quest"which i have read. Also the story quoted by mahalaksmiji perfectlydescribes how to know God.He is all knowing and yet unknown.He isthe Devine Intelligence that governs all that is known to us.God isindescribebable.He can only be felt in the depths of a pure soul.Ami Chhowala

--------------------------------I still remain unsatisfied in this "divine" forum. How and whyParamatma can not be an individual ? Is there nothing in yourscriptures like Gita which says that a devotee can also "see" God ?My Begum Sahiba states that she read from a book of your SwamiRamsukhdasji that Jai Dayal Goenka and Hanuman Poddarhad "darshanas" of God. Was His statement right or your referenceof good Swami is right? Why do you say that God can not be known?How then the desire to know can be fulfilled? Whether I need aninstruction manual or not is not the focal point, in fact, to befair to me, answer to my questions in simple and convincing manneris focal point! None of the "sadhaks" are convincing so far. Iasked from where to pick the thread? The responses are unclear andincomplete.

Mr Mike ! Incomplete, was your answer. If you believe you were likeme in the past, then make me like you in the present. Is that not adivine task? Is that not the role of this forum? Logic must exist.Pointers must be there. Knowledge cant be beyond itself. What elsewe are doing at present except meeting?

Mr Vyas - When Your so called " Nature" made oceans, Sun Moon etcand when Nature is supreme then where is the question of God? Whycant Fire/ Ocean/etc are called God ? If yes, then how God isbeyond knowledge? How God can not be seen as stated by Mr PratapBhatt or by Vineet Sarvottam ?

"Sadhaks" - My Begum Sahibaa directed me to you people to satisfymy knowledge quest ! I expected better as I am hungry for answers.

Sarphod Tabalchi--------------------------------Such a question can only arise from those who consider gross body asreal self and not the outer sheath of immortal "real self" whichcontains the apriori knowledge.

They see God every day but do not recognise THEE. The Universal Godis Tri-Ani-Pada- three bodies in One i.e. gross, subtle and divine.Since the entire Brahamad is God, His gross body consists of "Sunand Moon His eyes, firmament his middle body and earth as His Feet"and His Head is in Heaven. Thus entire Brahmand is God. Most of thepeople who find gross body as real, want to imagine and visulaiseGod as a human being forgetting that human beings who live on thisearth are "Thy" tiny living cells. We have several billions livingcells in our gross body, can any living cell of our body tell who weare?

But those who find human soul as "real self" have no difficulty inknowing God. His divine body is the Omniscient Supreme Soul(Parmatma) and His subtle body "Mahadeva" is omnipotent SupremeSpirit prevalent in all animate and inanimate life/things. Hisspirit is found in Shuniya (cosmic void) of all kind of matterconsisting of atoms with unsuspected vitality. Because of His spiritprevalent in shuniya, matter is not inert.

Since Man is born in the image of God, human beings are also tri-ani-pada. Immortal soul resides in our divine body, spirit resides inour subtle body and gross instruments in our material body. Thosewho consider material gross body as the real self will always finddifficult to know formless and ineffable universal God.

Incidentally formeless and ineffable Universal God is Brahma- namederived from Brahmand and other gods in human form are Iswaras.Iswaras are not the gods of entire mankind.with regards,Prem Sabhlok

--------------------------------Dear sarphod,

God is in nature,he can only be felt.His power is dwellingeverywhere in the nature in the form of cosmic vibratioins .If wecan tune our mind with the same frequency by way of sadhana we canfeel the godliness of the nature.How a sperm can create a body withlife is the proof of the supernatural power of the god. So far weare only establishing the things which are existing, but we areunable to establish about the source of the existence.Our ultimate goal our of life is to reuntite ourselves with thenature from where we have come.Nothing extra to be thought aboutgod. Living close to the nature is living near god. But the sensesattached to our body always act against our realisationprocess.controling the senses is the biggest challenge of our life.Let us teach our children about righteous way of living ,thinknaturally and live naturally.

with regardsRamana kothuri

------------------The questions of Mr Sarphod Tabalchi are basic questions. I toodont believe that the Supreme Power would not leave any pointers orlogics of His existence. From where to pick the thread ? I dontagree with Mr Sarvottam that God can not be seen by His belovedones.. There has to be nothing which is beyond the powers ofSupreme. One principle came from Mike's narration and Mr Vyas'message that before "big bang" too something existed or that ifthere is creation then there must be a creator. But how that isexclusive prorogative of God only ? Creativity is universal symptomand authority. Spiders are also creators as per Mike Keenor. Pleaseelaborate with reference to Sarphod's questions. What about fiveelements? Are they creators? Are not these elements playing thetransformation game? I think more serious and direct discussions arewarranted on the subject, not just belief stricken answers. Firstthe logics/rationales have to be exhausted.

Luca Brasi----------------------------

Jai Kali Mata

What is meant by "No one knows about time!!!" Also, I am unclear asto how this is relevant to the questions asked? Is this idea abouttime, emanated out of teachings of Shraddheya Swamiji referred byhim? Kindly clarify !

Bandook Singh

--------------------------------PRIOR POSTING

RESUBMITTED WITH SOME CORRECTIONS

Shree HariRam Ram

You have asked -

1) Where is God, I have never seen Him?Answer: Paramatma is not an individual that you or any one cansimply see. Existence - IS-ness (sattaa maatre) has been given thename Paramatma. Otherwise there is no name for that Existence or allNames are only Paramatma's (Supreme Consciousness's) Names.

2) Who has seen Him?Answer: Paramatma has not been seen by anyone to date and in futuretoo Paramatma will not be ever seen. Shraddhey Swamiji has statedthat Paramatma can be believed, not known, nor seen. Beyond thiswhatever anyone says, is questionable.

3) How is He?Answer: How, where, when, what, why, such questions regardingParmatma are pointless. That which cannot be known, it cannot bedescribed at all.

4) What are you able to know "Time" (samay). This question has beenasked regarding time (whose beginning and end is unknown to us). Itis not a question about the watch or the interval. It is not onlyyou, but no one understands anything about "time". They can saynothing about time. Then why do you believe in time? Similarlybelieve and accept Paramatma, it will be nothing but gain.

5) This same work is also performed by men through establishment oflaws. Just as all do not believe in the law, similarly, everyonecontinues to speak and share for correcting one's foolishness, andaccording to one's own convenience and conformance giving thattattva a "form". You too can speak about the same as well.

6) 'Existence' itself is 'Paramaatmaa'. Where can any supportivearguments and evidence exist to establish the existenceof 'Existence' (named Paramaatmaa)? Then where is one to get thesupport of this essential elemental belief 'ASTITTVA'? Reasoning-deliberation-discussion (tark), proof-evidence (pramaan) can be ofthat thing which we know. But Paramatma is not known and cannot everbe known, then this reasoning and seeking evidence is not inconformance to that reasoning.

7) Do you want Paramatma? or do you want an instruction manual oran aphorism (sutra) to grab hold of Paramatma? Don't get caught upin the vicious cycle of trying to find an instruction manual.Leaving the search, become engaged in "Chup Saadhan" (EffortlessAwareness, Discipline of Silence). All quest, and inquiry will bequietened, will become still.

Please kindly forgive any limitations in the expression / wordsused.

Vineet Sarvottam--------------------------

Hari Om

How to know what is beyond knowledge - is the moot question.

Logic/Rationale !! Proof !!! Sample !! Consider the following:

1 .Whatever we are able to see on this earth there is always acreator /manufacturer - be it an allpin, pen, table, house, machine,house, bed, watch, pen, paper, cloth or aircraft. Anything visible.Then there should be creator of oceans, fire, air, mountains, earth,Sun. Moon, stars also !

God is the creator of all. - CREATOR

2. Whatever thing which moves , be it car, aircraft, bicycle,machine, computer, - there is always a controller thereof. Earthalso moves. Sun/Moon also move. Oceans remain in their limits. Sunrises and sets perfectly without fail. There must be a controller ofthem also!

God is the controller of all- CONTROLLER

Q BUT A HUMAN BEING ALSO CREATES ! WHAT IS SO IMPORTANT ABOUT IT ?

Ans A human being cannot "create" anything! It is only "nature"which creates! You can only change the shape thereof. You can covertgold into ornaments or iron into sword or utensil, but you can'tcreate gold or iron ! Only nature provides that. You can mix two ormore elements, formulate, change shape only. You can create . Youcan "discover" only.

To be continued.

Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B-------------------------Kindly read bertrand russelAranha Roy

---------------------------Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!Let us continue further on the subject and build on what sadhakashave said.Please, it may sound too intellectual, but it is not! It may humbleus!Consider this: If we need to know/study any object, the object hasto exist inthe first place.Even if we cannot know the object, we always know it exists. Thisknowing of anexistence is prior to the knowledge of its nature, attributes,function etc.The Universe is a collection of objects, and can be said to be oneExistencefundamentally. Individual objects within it are individualexistences localizedin space and time over which they exist, and change to other forms,continuingthe existences.When we say Universe we mean the Existence only. Even the wordUniverse pointsto the Existence first. How do we know such Existence itself? Onlyby beingaware/cognizant of it, no other way. So the Existence is awarenessof Existence.To see what is prior to such Existence, there has to be Awareness toknowwhether or not such Existence IS. Thus Awareness as Existence has tobebeginningless! What is after the Existence, non-existence? no,because to sayit, there has to be Awareness of non-existence. If there isAwareness ofnon-existence, IS-ness is established. Thus that which IS, theExistence(withoutdivision into many objects), is eternally free of time and spacecontaining allobjects(names/forms) in time and space by creating mind and endowingit withthis ability in terms of thoughts/feelings. Gita in 2:16 says thereal neverceases to be.Such Awareful Existence has to be most Powerful, Intelligent,Beautiful, full ofLove and Blissful which is our experience. Can we not call this God?God means Such Intelligence as seen through those who serve, and loveunconditionally, those who fight for Dharma, the righteousness, andthose whopreach God's message!Evil actions come out from not realizing the Truth of EternalOneness, GOD!Namaskar.............Pratap Bhatt

 

----------------------------My answer is simply to a question which has been indirectlyasked: "Why can't I see Him?"Because He is the Seer. You are what you are looking for. It issubjective awareness.The problem lies with the word 'God' because we then suppose adistinct being like a tribal deity. No, it is Awareness, Supernal-consciousness. This is the Vedantic way. Find out who you reallyare, not how others see you, but from your subjective perspective,and you'll find what you're looking for.Rishi Handa

----------------------------Wonderful expression by Pratap (Bhatt) Bhai

Further, a simple but serious exercise could help in understandingthis.....Sarphodji, ask yourself " who is asking these questions?""Who wants to know God?" ....and wait for the answer....see what comes from deep inside.....

but you have to have patience.....and keep asking/repeating thequestions....In fact when you come across any such question, ask yourselfwho is this who wants to know this, who is asking the question?....

and wait for the answers and experience that follows.......Best wishesSushil Jain

--------------------------------I am a believer of God. Like one person said in the e-mail below, Iwent through that 'show me God to believe' stage when I was around22 years - 26 years. I was God lover before and again lover now. Ido not really know and I do not think with my limited ablity I canever know. At the same time I am not blind follower too. I am opento all these 6 questions coming from a logical person because I hadthem before too and have them now too. Before - with doubt, now -with wonder and amazement.

Knowing God is a long journey. I am on the journey, I beleive I amgradually understanding the divine concept. I am understanding themthrough others, specially our ancestors, Indian scriptures. Thereare great concepts, ideas and explanations, there are trash alsoamongst them. I am amazed at the power of those ideas andexplanations. They attempted volumes and spent 100s of years to findGod and explain the divinity. Can I really understand all this in mylife? I doubt, which is why its a journey for me. Can I see God? Itdepends on. I feel divinity in some great people, in their ideas forhumanity - around me.

OK, when somebody asks the question 'show me God', what they areasking us is 'show me Jesus, Show me Shiva or show me Vishnu'. Idoubt if any one has seen God in these forms. Unless the divinepower appears so for any. As for God in its full form - Can Iimagine the distance between the Earth and the nearest star (AlphaCentauri - about 4 light years away). I cannot imagine thatdistance - however logically I think. Can I see God then - which isfull of this universe? Impossible to imagine. Then how can I seeGod, unless God willingly appears to me.

My dear friend, answers to those 6 questions need volumes ofexplanation or simply experiecing of the divine power - depending onwhere you stand on the quest for God. Its a journey, so pleasediscuss with people who have done the research (of your 6 questionsbefore) and experience the facts yourself. You still go through theoscillations of belief and disbeliefs, but if your quest is sincereyou will start seeing light at the end of tunnel.

The above does not give straight answers to even one of yourquestions. So thanks for your time, if at all you read through thisuntil now.

Venu Gopal--------------------------------

PRIOR POSTINGI will come at these questions in a hard nosed manner, maybe I amblessed as I too waved aside religions when younger but traveled fullcircle to The Beloved, who I dearly love with my absolute being.

Question 6: There has to be some basis for his existence? What arethe logics which point towards the existence of God? From where topick the thread?O.K. I would ask the skeptical young, (I will call him S. ), tell meS. how did this Godless Universe begin? He may be a brilliantphysicist, good chance though, regardless S will start to talk aboutthe 'big bang', the question would then be, o.k. S. was theresubstance, was there energy, and was there time, before the 'Event'?I would ask S. also when this energy of the bang runs out whatthen?, I would press the point home that the Great IndiansTraditions had a good explanation for all this many millenniumbefore the present time, and is probably a good guide for thescientists. Oh! I would ask my young friend S. where did the laws ofphysics come from? Apparently they are unique, the laws had to bespot on for there to be an existance, that is what the physicistseem to be saying.

I would ask S. one other thing, how is it possible for a spider tobuild the perfect web according to its kind, without actually beingtaught.

I would say to S., think about it, think about it, be tenacious, bemercilessness, and be brave, let your desire for the truth take youwhere it will, just hang in there! S. my friend I was once like you,maybe one day we can really talk.

With Respect and Divine Love,

Mike Keenor------------------------

Dear Sadak,

1. Where is God I have never seen Him?EXAMPLES Most children knowwater is H2O (Hydrogen 2 parts and Oxygen 1 part) ask them them toshow hydrogen and oxygen showing water. Next show them Yogurt (Curd)and ask them to show milk. Bigger children ask them to show planets.Then tell then from Sanskrit slokas-- "God is apprameyam" that whichcannot be seen or known by senses as in case of above examples, asGod can be only known by Gyana (knowledge)2. Who has seen Him? Like in case of scientist tell as per aboveexamples, so does Saints tell. Only a saint (Guru) can show God asshown to Vivekananda by Swamy Ramakrishna3. How is He? Slokas say: Aroopamai, Aksharamai. Roopam, Akandamai,Viratroopamai Etc. No definite shape as HE appears in the form thatthe devotee wants. HE is in sounds - Om, HE is like Sri Krishna/SriRama Etc, Omnipresent (That cosmic energy filled in everything), HEis in all shapes and forms.4. If I dont know how do I accept? Contemplate. If you accept thatthere is Galaxies then contemplate what energy is performing wholeuniverse, like in the case of any toy needs battery, car need petrolor fuel, computer need electricity etc. Still do not want to accept-Leave it.

Jai Sri Krishna

baiya sathyanarayan-----------------------------

All questions arise out of answers. When one asks a questioneither he needs a confirmation of the answer which he already hasor he is answering his own question. When somebody is asking aquestion relating to God, first he has to explain what is in hismind when he says or thinks of GOD.

Einstein said that the world is an optical illusion. We think andfeel that we are separated from the rest. This is an opticalillusion. We have no direct contact with the outside world. Allthe sensorial data has to filter through our optical nerve and ourmind (delusion). So we have no idea of what is exactly out there.When one realizes this he comes closer to God or some superiorknowledge.

To realise that we are the debris of God is the supremerealisation.

The most mysterious thing holds the most important key. Death isthe most mysterious thing. Death holds the most important key.

When death happens. The soul/consciousness releases out of thecage (body � which is always subjected to three dimensional viewandlinear concept of time and space), one will realize or merge withGod

H. Subair

------------------------------dear pratapji,thank u for giving us such wonderful knowledge.personlike you are really god's gift to us.bhargav mehta------------------------PRIOR POSTINGRe: Does God (Paramatma) Exist? Where is the Proof? Whatis the logic ?

Through that supreme devotion he comes to know Me in reality, whatand how great I am; and thereby knowing Me in essence he forthwithenters into My being.

Gita - Chapter 18 Sloka : 55

Sundara Raghavendran---------------------------

Deaar Sadhakas, Namaste!When someone says "where is God? I have never seen Him", that personhas to know what God is that he expect to see, otherwise he cannotask the question. The question comes from the implicit assumptionthat God is some imagination, ideas, knowledge, belief, etc. in themind and what I see out there is definitely not "God".So it is better to rephrase the question back to What God is first.When that is understood, all questions by Tabalchiji will getanswered.Consider the following dialogue:Q: Do you have a doubt about your own existence?A: No, I know I exist beyond a shadow of doubt. It is so obvious tome!Q: How do you know you exist?A: I don't know HOW, but I am sure I DO!Q: Do you need any help of another person, scripture, or somelogical explanation to confirm you do exist?A: Definitely not, even if they say I don't exist, I know I do,because it is experiential within me now. I don't even need anysense organs-mind-intellect to tell me I exist!

So, it is self-evident existence, of "beingness" we all feel withinus, and by which we know what is knowable in this world as objectsof knowledge. This experience of Being Conscious is always with us,never are we away from IT, not even in our sleep when body-mind-world are all gone no one knows where! But I am always!I just have to find out that ultimately this "I" is Impersonal andis of the nature of Existence-Consciousness which we call God!Personal God of Bhakta appears in this Impersonal!Based on this, I can conclude that God is not a particular objectamong many objects we know through sense organs, mind and intellect.It is THE UNIQUE and objectless EXPERIENCE!It is like our eyes who cannot see themselves and yet know theirexistence beyond any shadow of doubt because SEEING takes placeautomatically by just Being.Once it is grasped, it can lead to God Realization!Namaskar...

Pratap Bhatt

-------------------------------

My dear Sarphod,There is a very beautiful story from ancient times that I haveheard from my guru. Once, a king called his minister and said, "Iwant you to answer two questions.....otherwise your position will beat stake.....first, can you show me God. Secondly, what is Goddoing right now?The minister was in anxiety. He went home, began searchingthrough various scriptures....wondering if he would have a job thenext day. His small son approached him, and noticing his father'sperplexity, inquired, "What troubles you, father?" The fatherresponded, "Oh, this is not something you would understand." Atthe child's persistence, the father finally explained. The smallchild smiled, and simply said, "Father, that is so easy toanswer.....just tell the king that even a small child can answerthese inquiries, and I will then give him my responses".The father had no choice, as he didn't know the way torespond. So, when the child came before the king, he requested theking, "First, please have a pot of milk brought forth." The king didso. Then the child inquired, "Is there ghee in this milk?" Theking said, "Yes, it is there." Then the child explained, "It isthere, but you cannot see it. Why can you not see the ghee?" Theking said, "There is a process by which the ghee will be broughtforth, of course, first one must churn the milk into butter, thenthe butter is slowly heated until the ghee rises to thesurface......only after one patiently follows this process will hesee the ghee." As the king was speaking, slowly realization cameinto his heart, that similarly, one cannot demand to see God at thismoment....there is a process. One who's heart is not pure, whodoes not have love and devotion, cannot see the Lord, but He willcertainly reveal Himself to those who are willing to accept theprocess of "bringing forth the ghee".The child then said, "You are asking me what God is doing.That is putting me in the postion of teacher, and you as disciple.So, is it appropriate for you to be sitting on your throne, if youare learning from me? " The wise King immediately pleced the childon the throne, and sat in front of him, ready to try to understandhis next lesson. "This is what God is doing"....he said. "He istaking someone from a low position and putting him into a highposition, according to the results of his work, and taking someoneelse from a high position and putting him into a low position."The king was very pleased with the child's answers, and rewarded himand his father.So, one may say, "I don't accept such simplisticresponses".....well, then, such a person will never see the Lord,unless and until he is fortunate enough to get the association of asadhu, by whose association one's heart melts. When one trulycomes into contact and develops some sukrti by contact with a Godconsscious person, there is no material, anaytical way to explainwhat happens. It is beyond our mundane intelligence, our ability toanalyze. So, simply pray for the youth you are hoping to guide,and gradually perhaps the mercy of the sadhus will come to them.It is not a mechanical process.I hope my words have been gentle, encouraging, and helpful.....itis truly a sadness which we all share as parents if our childrenbecome somewhat agnostic or doubtful of the underestanding of theLord's presence, and the need for ancient, eternal tradition. Wecan only pray to be the best examples of loving, patient friends forthem that we can possibly be.

respectfully,Mahalaksmi Dasi

-------------------------------Sarphod,

Read Paramahansa Yogananda's book "the Autoibgraphy of a Yogi"published by Self Realization Fellowship, Los Angeles, CA.

Haley H. Haynes--------------------------------Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!In this posting I would like to build on my previous post.We as parents must deeply understand the truth of who we are, whatis the nature of world and God first. Then only we can explain toour children. I would shy away to tell children that because it issaid in our scriptures, you have to believe in God being such andsuch.

We can begin on the path of knowledge with the premise. That whichalways IS irrespective of time, location or cause, is Truth. Truth,thus, cannot be denied and has to be our continuous experiencealways, not some states we experience that come and go, rather Thatin which all states of experiences happen.

In the beginning it may sound like intellectual, but understandingof that which always IS, has to be our real nature, or Reality ofwhatever we all seem to experience dawns on us sooner rather thanlater. What is Real

 

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Shree Hari Ram Ram

Dear Sadhaks, NAMASKAR! In light of recent feedback... lengthy messages will be shortened at the discretion of the moderators. We appreciate your attention to this. Thank you, From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram

-------------------------

My question is that how to prove that there exists a super naturalpower called "God" ? At least how to explain that. How to correlateHis existence with the character of the world? Children now a daysneed more than belief to accept. Can there be any way vide which wecan establish that God exists. If some body says say :1. Where is God I have never seen Him?2. Who has seen Him?3. How is He?4. If I dont know how do I accept?5. God is a term coined by elders to put moral shackles over us sothat we may indulge in goodness.6. There has to be some basis for his existence? What are the logicswhich point towards the existence of God? From where to pick thethread?

Sarphod Tabalchi

NEW POSTING

Namaste.

The only way to 'prove that there exists a super natural power called "God" ' is to find God, in yourself, and everywhere.

 

Others may explain and provide as much information as you wish but in the final analysis, you have to discover God, yourself. You must bear in mind that you cannot "challenge" God to prove He exists; this is human thought and action, on the human plane.

 

I suggest you start with the Nasadiya - The Creation Hymn, Rig Veda Book 10 Hymn 129:

 

1. THEN was not non-existent nor existent: there was no realm of air, no sky beyond it. What covered in, and where? and what gave shelter? Was water there, unfathomed depth of water?2 Death was not then, nor was there aught immortal: no sign was there, the day's and night's divider.That One Thing, breathless, breathed by its own nature: apart from it was nothing whatsoever.3 Darkness there was: at first concealed in darkness this All was indiscriminated chaos.All that existed then was void and form less: by the great power of Warmth was born that Unit.4 Thereafter rose Desire in the beginning, Desire, the primal seed and germ of Spirit.Sages who searched with their heart's thought discovered the existent's kinship in the non-existent.5 Transversely was their severing line extended: what was above it then, and what below it?There were begetters, there were mighty forces, free action here and energy up yonder6 Who verily knows and who can here declare it, whence it was born and whence comes this creation?The Gods are later than this world's production. Who knows then whence it first came into being?7 He, the first origin of this creation, whether he formed it all or did not form it,Whose eye controls this world in highest heaven, he verily knows it, or perhaps he knows not.

 

Read it several times, sing it loud, ponder the significance and meaning of it, study it, and then ask questions about the Creation of this world, of human life, and the purpose of your existence. Then, go to Geeta for answers. Rest assured you will find God and all answers you seek.

 

Ram Ram

Deosaran Bisnath

-----------

Narain ! Narain !!

 

Issue raised by Shrivastavaji and Sharmaji is : If there is God prevalent in the world, why there is sorrow existing ? God is known to be the kindest, all knowing and all powerful. If He knows about our sorrows but is not powerful then one can understand. He will also cry with us, as we do when some one dies.But He is all powerful. If He is powerful but is ignorant, one can understand. He can say I did not know ? But He is all knowing. If He is all powerful and all knowing but if He is cruel, then one can understand. Damn care. Each is suffering due to one's own karmas. Why He should bother? But He is the kindest. He cant say to a 5 year old child, you are suffering because of your past deeds. Even we as normal fathers dont refuse to give milk to the child even if by carelessness he has split earlier given glass of milk. This is the issue raised by these two gentlemen.

 

Narain ! Narain !! Error clearly visible in their statements is total lack of normal intellect and sheer arrogance. They instead of going for reasons and instead of asking soberly a question have sat on the chair of judge and started giving verdicts. They have presumed themselves to be the only wise person, while the fact is that every human on this earth has some speciality which is unique to him. They have concluded certain things without any application of Viveka or even mind or intellect. They are , thus, neither here nor there. They have faith, as does every human being, but they dont know how and where to apply the same. They are standing in dark and feel that there is no light possible. Their views therefore are full of stupidity and lack of knowledge. Without going into that stupidity, we should in fact address the issues raised by them. WHY SORROW EXISTS, IF GOD IS THERE ?

 

Either sorrow is not there or God is not there. If sorrow is there, then either God is not therte.. If still God is there, then He is not all knowing, all powerful and the kindest. Which status is true? Let us deliberate. Sadhak Sarphod Tabalchi ! Like my name, your name is also getting immortal. Join us now, you too !

 

Narain ! Narain !!

Naarad N Maharishi

----

Hari OmDear Mr SrivastavaWhy are you thinking about God? Can you think for an element which does not exist? Are you not fully independent in acceptance? What made you express your self before this forum? What made you read these messages? What made you still recollect and narrate the book which you threw? You threw the book, but your mind did not ! Why?Catherine has faith. Do you not have faith? If you don't have, then prove your own existence ! Tell me can you live without faith in you. Can you justify existence of faith in you? You have faith in science, and some western writers you named, isn't it? She has faith in God! How you can say your faith is correctly placed, and her faith is not? What gives anyone the right to call another.... fool, or vulgar or bacteria or idiot ! Think about this..... !!! Prove to me by science ( as developed till date) as to who is your father ! Can you prove it, based on your personal knowledge? You are talking about Eternal Father , I am talking about of this birth father. Bring all of your knowledge, science, intellect, mind, expertise, capacity, imagination to prove to me as to who is your this father. Prove to me as to who are you.... Body, nose, ear, heart what are you ? Now prove !Now that you are in the forum... don't run away - let us see how how long these words last .... trash, misplaced, illogical, arising out of darkness and ignorance, blind, irrational, literate fools or lack of belief in God, I say that you believe that there is God. Now prove your disbelief ! Don't run away ! Are you ready for it? Then prove to us as to who is your this birth father , by your personal knowledge !! There should not be any "belief" on anything because your "science" does not recognise belief , it goes on the basis of proof. You should tell us how Mr So and So is your father based on a proof acquired out of your knowledge and not out of any belief on anything. Science goes on facts and acquired knowledge not on any belief. And it is a fact that you exist. How is that "you" who exists? We shall talk about your Eternal Father- Paramatma ( Your father's father's father's ...... Father of Adam and Eve) afterwards. First prove your this birth father. Bring Darwin's theories also in deliberations if that help you in correctly answering to us. Now come on! Let us have healthy deliberations.Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B

-------

Jai HanumanVery good, Jee, Very good ! There is one idiom in Hindi:Maa ka pata hi nahin hai, mausi ki chinta karate hain !Whereabouts of mother is not known, and people are worrying about mausi (mother's sister) !Raam ! Raam!! Raam!!! There is another idiom in Hindi :Andhe ko andhere main, badi door ki soojhi !A Blind person standing in darkness has claimed himself to be a visionary. Mr Shrivastava ! The best thing which has happened to you is that you have somehow reached to this forum. You were reading the messages , isn't it? Why? Now you should read more intensely and surely Daddy's grace will work like magic ! We have Sister Catherine as examples showing us how to live - devoid of hatred, negativity, frustration, brooding, fretting, ignorance, stupidity, pride. She is sober, intelligent, wise,organised, sharp,knowledgeable, determined, cool and composed. It is obvious to any one who reads her statement. What has made her so? Where lies the difference? Faith in God ! What else the difference can be? Think, if you can.Namaste Jee, Jee JeeShashikala

----

Dear Friend,I have been studying (not just reading) the Gita for 20 years now. There is some profound wisdom contained within it, and according to me a whole lot of redundant verses as well. Per what I understand, in the 11th century AD, with the advent of the Vaishnav cult, a lot of verses apotheosizing Krishna were added to the Gita. Moreover, many have commented that there would not have been sufficient time just before commencement of battle to discourse 700 verses.

Even a child can guess, none of the Deities could move even a finger in their defence over the centuries, many invaders and conquerors from central Asia plundered and demolished Hindu temples... This should convince one of the non-existence of Hindu Deities, and the irrationality behind this myth. And regarding your comment on DNA testing - haven't you heard of so many cases where DNA testing has showed people that they were wrongly believing someone else to be their father? And if someone wants proof of their parentage, don't they resort to DNA testing? Moreover, we are talking about a father that exists in flesh and blood – not an imaginary invention. You said - "It is impossible to know, conquer, realize, attain the sentient essence (GOD, Consciousness, Presence) through insentient means," either confused the meaning of the word sentient, or have invented your own meaning to it. And it is very obvious thatyou think nothing of blind faith, or of remedying it.

Little knowledge is dangerous. You write about Schopenhauer being influenced by the Gita. He was influenced by Eastern philosophy, but with the essence, and not with the rituals and blind faith contained therein, Per my understanding of his writings he believed real deductions themselves are by no means to be found in Hindu Scriptures. He regarded the world as a prison, as a place of suffering, a theme central to Hindu Scriptures. He had the sense to take matters to their logical conclusion. Based on what I understand of his writings he indicated that if the world is a place of suffering, and freeing the soul is the ultimate goal, then it is highly immoral to give birth to a child and trap a soul in a mortal prison. - Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860), On the Sufferings of the World (1851). Sadly, most of the people who read our Scriptures lack the insight of people like Schopenhauer to understand simple truths. My understanding is that Schopenhauer detested Religion, the concept of God, and for this very reason described the masses as the "natural and universal league of the stupid".

(other paragraphs excluded by moderators due to lack of relevance to the TOPIC and length).

P Srivastava

Shree Hari Ram Ram

Srivastavaji, Namaskar ! Our question is not about others... Have you personally done DNA testing of your father or are you just believing that the person you call father is your father? If you have not done DNA testing ,,, then how are you much different? Also, kindly share your explanation of "sentient" Here is the quote - "In the whole world there is no study, except that of the originals, so beneficial and so elevating as that of the Oupnekhat. It is the most rewarding and elevating reading possible: it has been the comfort of my life and it will be the one of my death." Arthur Schopenhauer (said about the Upanishads). Ram Ram

 

 

PRIOR POSTING

Chapter ten of Bhagavata Gita explains every aspects of Almighty GodNo more explanations required Thanks truly yours S S Bhatt----

" Ahankaram balam darpam, kamam krodham parigraham,Vimucya nirmamah santo, brahma bhuyaya kalpate" ( gita 18, 53). Which means " one who is deyached , free from false ego, false strength, pride, ownership and one who is always peaceful, such a person is eligible for brahma swarupam."

When one is free from false ego and becomes non attached to material things, then that one reached " brahma bhuta stage".

A pure devotee goes still further and becomed engaged in devotional service. Pure devotional service is the key to attain the lord.

There are examples to prove God's presence. Sant tukaram went back to lord's kingdom on garuda vahana', sent by pandu ranga. Composer singer annamacharya saw lord venkateswara.

Hare krishna. Prasad iragavarapu m.d

---

Sutra 1

Parambrahma (Spirit or God) is everlasting, complete, without beginning or end.It is one, indivisible Being.

The Eternal Father, God, Swami Prarmbrahma, is the only Real Substance, Sat, andis all in all in the universe.

Why God is not comprenhensible;Man possesses eternal faith and believes intuitively in the existence of aSubstance, of which the objects of sense - sound, touch, sight, taste and smell,the component parts of theis visible world - are but properties. As manidentifies himself with his material body, composed of the aforesaid properties,he is able to comprhend by these impercect organs these properties only, and notthe Substance to which these properties belong. The Eternal Father, God, theonly Substance in the Universe, is therefore not comprehensible by man of thismaterial world, unless he becomes divine by lifting his self above this creationof Darkness or Maya. See Hebrews 11:1 and John 8:28.

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things notsee."

"Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the son of man (human ego),then shall ye know that, I am he."

Sutra 2

In it (Parambrahma) is the origin of all kowledge and love, the root of allpower and joy.

Prakriti or Nature of God;The Almighty Force, Shakti, or in other words the Eternal Joy, Ananda, whichproduces the world; and the Omniscient Feeling, Chit, which makes this worldconscious, demonstrate the Nature, Prakriti, of God the Father.

How God is comprehended.

As man is the likness of God, directing his attention inward he can comprehendwithin him the said Force and Feeling, the sole properties of his Self - theForce Almighty as his will, Vasana, with enjoyment, Bhoga; and the FeelingOmniscient as his Consciousness, Chetana, that enjoys, Bhokta. See Genesis 1:27.

"In this way God created man in his own image, in the image of God created hehim; male and female created he them."

So says Swami Sri Yukteswarji in his book, "The Holy Science".

Haley Haynes

---------

Sarphod Tabalchi, you have raised some very pertinent questions, which clearly do away with the concept of an anthropomorphic just and merciful Father – one is reminded of the Epicurean Riddle:

"Either God wants to abolish evil, and cannot; Or He can, but does not want to.If He wants to, but cannot, He is impotent. If He can, but does not want to, He is wicked.If God can abolish evil, and God really wants to do it, why is there evil in the world?"

The irrational, the tissue of whose brain is of a coarse quality, will try to offer some very stupid explanations to this riddle, leaning on the spurious law of Karma.

I am shocked to see educated people attach more weight to blind faith and vulgar superstition than to facts which lie in hand – this is something Charles Darwin had bemoaned as well. Raja Ram Mohan Roy had hoped that Western education wouldrid Indians of blind faith: he was wrong. Western education has succeeded only in creating a profusion of literate fools.

I was reading some Indian Scripture in which there was mention of "the God who brings rain and the demons that withhold it" – this disgusted me so much that I just threw that useless book away. Science has done half the job to cure peoplefrom the disease of God and Religion; the other half can be achieved by reading Western Philosophy. I would definitely attach more weight to men of science and logic than to the buffoons who write about Gods and demons bringing rain. Ifbitten by a venomous snake, where would you rush to – a modern hospital stocking the anti-venom, or some dim-witted idiot who would parrot out Scriptures in an attempt to cure you? Until modern science developed snake anti venom, and manyother cures, our Scriptures and obsolete medical techniques were quite ineffective and useless when it came to most medical problems.

"God is Everything. God is a manifestation of all that is around us(trees, mountains, birds, animals, mankind)" – this quote by Catherine Anderson just proves Epicurus right – it means God is harmful bacteria, virus, and all the evil that pervades the world.

If anyone really wishes to enlighten themselves, I suggest you stop reading trash and go for books by great men like David Hume and Arthur Schopenhauer.

P Srivastava---

Shree Hari Ram Ram

Srivastavaji, Namaskaar! Please share with us if you have read the Bhagavad Gita. (By read, we mean - not just superficially scanning...but questioning, inquirying and seeing if the answers are available in it).....

Simply speaking.... if we have not done DNA testing of our father... we are living in blind faith.... As we recollect - ARthur Schopenhauer was deeply influenced by the Bhagavad Gita, he has made comments to that effect.

Education feeds the mind/intellect which are insentient. It is impossible to know, conquer, realize, attain the sentient essence (GOD, Consciousness, Presence) through insentient means. Ram Ram

------

God is an Anglo-Saxon noun and refers to a Male (as opposed to Goddess), Creator Being. There is no provable God (or Goddess). As Hindus, what do we know? Tat Tvam Asi. This Mahavakya means that we are No-Thing (Tat). This Tat is also referred to as ParaBrahman and sometimes Nirguna Brahman. What can be said about Tat? Nothing. "Mouna vakya ParaBrahaman tattwam." Tat may also be defined as Om Tat Sat(chidananda). This Saguna Brahaman experience is provable. Energy/Light/Bliss is our Atmana. This we know. God we do not know. As Hindus, we have our Ishta Devatas and this good and this is personal. One does not (and cannot) have to prove the existence of our Ishta Devata. Thus, Hinduism is a monistic polymorphism and not the lesser understanding of Monotheism. Swami Param------Shree Hari Ram RamSwami Paramji, Kindly explain what exactly is meant by monistic polymorphism. Ram Ram ------ is obvious that there is NO GOD. The characters attributed to GOD areOmnipresentOmnipotentMercifulAll Knowing.There is so much misery and injustice in this world that either God does not know it in which case he is not all knowing, or he knows and does not do any thing about it. In that case he is not merciful. Or he can not do any thing then he is not omnipotent.I take a recent case of a 10 years old girl being raped by her father. What was God doing?It has been said that the girl was being punished for what she might have done in her previous life. How can a merciful God punish a child of ten ? In any case what she did in her previous life could not have been done if God did not will it to be done. If we agree that it was a punishment for some act for previous life than the father can not be blamed for the this act. He was only an instrument in the WILL of God. Let us face it God is nothing but an inversion of Man to explain things he could not explain, create an absolute authority and may be give hope when there is nonearun sharma---

Shree Hari Ram Ram

Arunji... have you read the Bhagavad Gita? Paramatma is not the doer, nor a punisher ! There have been previous discussions on this subject... in Gita Talk...you can search by topic. Ram Ram

----

PRIOR POSTING

To my beloved sadhaks,

Where is God? Who has seen Him? How is God? How do I accept Him? What logic points towards God? Let us look at Gita 7/19"After taking many births and acquiring the human form and realizing that God is Everything, should such a knower (Jnanavan) surrender to Me, indeed such a great soul is a rarity. "Repeat such a great soul is a rarity. My question is how can one not see God, who cannot be aware of where He is, how He is, but to accept Him is a good place to start and how to do this is by establishing a direct affinity for God.Everything is God. God has in simple words, expounded to us the innermost secrets of the hearts of great souls of Vasudev Sarvam. God is Everything. God is a manifestation of all that is around us(trees, mountains, birds, animals, mankind)Bhagavan says(Gita 18/55)" After realizing my quintessence (Tattva) man immediately merges into Me."Those who want to attain God do so by Discipline of Action, Knowledge and Devotion.For more info on God realization go to Swamiramsukhdasjis site and read on how to attain God with humility.catherine andersen

-------------------------

Shree Hari:Ram Ram.

By Grace of God these questions are on my computer:

1. Where is God I have never seen Him? God is in your mind. You can't see God with your eyes as mental conceptions are not seen by us.

2. Who has seen Him? Nobody ever declared he/she has seen God.

3. How is He? Nobody ever described how is God.

4. If I don't know how do I accept? If you don't know accept or don't accept, choice is yours.

5. God is a term coined by elders to put moral shackles on us so that we may indulge in goodness. What harm is there if you indulge in goodness? Indulge in goodness or not, choice is yours.

6. There has to be some basis for His existence. What are the logics which point towards the existence of God? from where to pick the thread? Existence of Existence (termed Tattva, Sattaa by Swamijee Shree Ramsukhdasjee) needs no basis for its existence. Existence of Existence is all logic and all illogic but they can't point towards Existence of Existence similarly as you can't mix water into water when you are under water only. You are the beginning and you are the end of the thread. Pick it up and go. You shall finish at the other end of thread and shall be surprised to experience that what you sought is the seeker. Vasudev: Sarvam. (Gita 7:19).

If you conceive God, you fail to experience the experience as experience is experience only (Swamijee in God IS Everything page 2 last para "Similarly in this world, men, animals, birds, trees, mountains, stones, bricks, sand, lime, earth etc. are of diverse kinds, yet what resides intrinsically within, has no form and that formless essence is God".).

Bandhu, if anything is easiest it is Realizing God (Existence, not any human with four hands etc they are NOT God as they don't reside in everything, they come and go.) Who is ever Realized as You can't deny your existence. Ram Ram.

Kachcha Sadhaka Sarvottam.----

5 Fallacies & Realities about God Fallacies* Ego Consciousness Realities of Self Consciousness 1 Humans believe that God needs something. Humans know that God needs nothing. God is beyond needs and demands. 2 Humans believe that God can fail to get what He needs. Humans know that God can never fail to get what He does not need. He has no needs. God is his own measure beyond failures & successes. 3 Humans believe that God has separated them from Him because they have not given Him what He needs. Humans know that God has integrated them from Him because they are God in human form. God is beyond form and non-form as one Living Consciousness. 4 Humans believe that God still needs what He needs so badly that God now requires them, from their separated position, to give it to Him. Humans know that God never needs any thing from humans other that what they are and have. God is in human form. 5 Humans believe that God will destroy them if they do not meet His requirements. Humans know for God there is no destruction and creation but infinite manifestations of energy of Living Consciousness. Dance of Living consciousness is appearance & disappearance of Physical Universe.

*Neale Donald Walsch (The New Revelations)

Sushil Jain

PRIOR POSTING

Hare Krishna

God is worshipped in 3 forms:1. Attributeless-Formless (Nirgun-Nirakar)2. Attribute-Formless (Sagun-Nirakar)3. Attribute-Form (Sagun-Sakar)

Goswami Tulsidasji has said"NIRGUN ROOP SULABH ATI SAGUN JAAN NAHI KOI""The attributeless form of Parmatma is very easy to understand butno one can know the form of Parmatma with attributes."

The first form of Attributeless-Formless Pramatma can be proved bylogic of uninterrupted existence (akhand satta). The second form ofAttribute-Formless (Sagun-Nirakar) Parmatma can be proved by logicof conscious and sentient Creator, Sustainer and Destroyer.

But the third form of Parmatma with form and attributes (Ram,Krishna, Shiva etc.) cannot be proved by any logic, rationale etc.They can only be believed with purport of Gita, Ramayan, Sadhak-Sanjivani etc.If anyone argues over Ram being God then questions like these willarise "In forest how did Lord Ram get deceived by a gold-deer? If Heis deceived then how is He Omniscient? Why did Lord take the help ofSugreev's army? If He takes help then how come is He Almighty?...."

When Lord Ram killed Ravan's mighty brothers Khar and Dushan, Ravandecided to examine whether the Omniscient and Almighty Parmatma hastaken Ram-avatar. He kidnapped Sitaji (with disguise of an ascetic)by deceiving Lord with a golden-deer. Lord failed in the examinationand Ravan was successful in his evil plan, but what was the endresult? Lord Ram destroyed the entire clan of Lankan demonsalongwith Ravan.

That is why Goswamiji has said"RAM ATARKYA BUDDHI KAR JAANI""Lord Ram cannot be known by intellect."

Faith in Parmatma with form and attributes (known as Bhagwan) canonly be developed when one does satsang. Reading scriptures is alsoone form of Satsang.

Hare KrishnaVarun P. Paprunia

Hare KrishnaDear Sarphod Uncle,

I sincerely apologize to you and your family for the language I haveused. I thought you were just trying to outsmart us with yourintellectual prowess so I used the same ploy on you; but Sir you area true sadhak. Sadhanaji, Mikeji recognized you but because of my so-called cleverness I did not recognize you. Again my sincereapologies for the usage of harsh words and blunt language.

Hare KrishnaVarun P. Paprunia------------------------------Om, God = generator orgniser destroyer.Do you see the air? Nosuppose you don't see the air then you can't see the energies in theair that sustain our body. Suppose you want to hold a grand partyof 5000 people continuing 15 days, then how much work you have todo, you will distribute your work among your relatives. Think ofGod is a organising 600 crores or more ( not only about earth butthink about whole universe). Think who has that Supreme organizingpower ! You or God. God is in every thing from atom to Everest.Suppose you made a car that each and every thing came from you meanseach part of car made from you, by you. That is God. He iscolourless, touchless, soundless, shapeless because he is supremeenergy. If you trust and have faith in God. you will trust ongod.this is the one kind of work of god. because hi is ruling onus.Whether you go to the church or any mandir or masjid, your needsby pleading to your superior… He is That. And you say uponfulfilling your wish - "thank God" What is that power that isfulfilling your needs? Whether small or a big one, it is fulfilledand often no by your effort

Hari Om,nilesh popat mali,

-------------------------------PRIOR POSTING

To Respected Sadhaks of this really divine , perhaps the only of itskind across the globe, Satsanga Group!

It is me, Dear Brothers, with my Dear Begum Sahibaa respectfullythanking you all for gems of wisdom which you imparted to me and tothe world. An association of people like you, group like yours, isor can only be God willed. Indeed, with people like Vyasji, (extremely polished and never contradicting. Must be the one who hasseen/ touched the "dukhalayam" very closely, very wisely and wonover the same), Mike Keenor ( You are pride of the very humanity)Varun, ( I am sure he is younger than many of us- his impetuosity/quick reaction reflects that, but very clever and very organised-Refer Gita 16/1 - jnanayogarvyavasthitam- an ideal young follower)Pratapji Bhatt ( Spl regards for you, for not firing me back) , thatreal firebrand Dear Sister of all of us Shashikalajee ( What asharp discrimination you have been blessed with ! ), Mira Dassji (An impartial devotee /follower of Respected Swamiji RamsukhdasjiMaharaaj), Rajaji, Baiyaji and dozens like them, are the jewels ofthis divine forum. My heartfelt pranaams to Vineetji Sarvottam. Hiscomments were innocent and correct.

Thanks AgainSarphod TabalchiRaseeli Rani Tabalchi

--------------------------------PRIOR POSTING

Dear Sadhak,Yes, Sadhakji, you are a Sadhak-a seeker of Truth,this is what myKrishna says--

Chatur-vidha bhajante maam janh sukrutinorjuna!Aarto jijnasuj-arthaarthi jnaani cha bharatarshabha! (Gita 7 / 16)

O Arjuna! There are four types of noble souls who worship Me : Theafflicted, the seekers of knowledge, the seekers of enjoyment andthe wise.

Gigyasu - seekers of knowledge.

The main barrier in not seeing God here and now is that you areusing wrong tool my dear.You want to see God through yr mind, whichitself is Asat.A traveller of Gyaan Marg, must know the differencebetween Sat and Asat.He must disconnect himself from everythingwhich is Asat(temporary, everchanging). He needs to drop/disconnecthimself from everything-the world, its relations, his own body,senses, mind, intellect, ego..... When everything is dropped thereremains NOTHING.Just Nothing...simply Nothing.....From that NOTHING emerges Peace, Love and Bliss. From that Nothingemerges EVRYTHING... This is the beauty of Gyaan Yoga.

And the most wonderful,the most amazing truth about my belovedKrishna is---He(God) becomes whatever you want Him to be. When wesee HIM as our protector, He rushes to rescue us as in the case ofDropadi, when we see Him as our Friend, He becomes our friend as inthe case of Sudama, when we accept HIM as all powerful miraculousbeing, miracles start unfolding in our lives.When we see HIM in astatue, he becomes motionless. He is everywhere in all forms,andwithout forms too, just we are unable to see him due to our ownlimited vision.When we accept HIM as our Guide and Guru, like Arjuna did, and wishto see HIS Vishwaroopa, He bestow us divine vision and we see Him ineverything, everywhere. I see many people saying God does not exist,money is God..ect, etc. So what, He does not hesitate to become nonexistence for them, still showering His Love....No discrimination inHis regime.

He just "IS". I love Swamiji the way He describes HIM. SomewhereSwamiji said-He IS or He IS NOT, this "IS" remains the same in boththe statement(nahi main bhi hai or hai main bhi hai).wow...Howblessed this human form is!!!

How divine this forum is!!!Lets be Love, Peace and Bliss !Shivoham! Shivoham!!With lots of Love,A SadhikaSadhna Karigar------------------------------

1. Where is God I have never seen Him? You cant see HIM as HE is anobject. Have you seen Saturn planet? How do you belive thatscientist? You belive based on Knowledge. In temples 2000 years oldthere are nine planets know as Nava Graha. How they saints knewwithout scientific proof.2. Who has seen Him? 100 `s of saints.3. How is He? HE is formless and with form or any form HIS devoteneeds.4. If I dont know how do I accept? If you dont know, try to know.Still your if you fail- It Gods will.5. God is a term coined by elders to put moral shackles over us sothat we may indulge in goodness. Why your parents put morals asshakles to put you good charactor. So is God put. Just understandit. If you think shackles you are mistaking. If you think guidanceyou will progress.6. There has to be some basis for his existence? What are the logicswhich point towards the existence of God? From where to pick thethread? Nine planets and earth are in space floating. Who made them?You want to make something you gather material and put your effortto make project. So there is someone who is behind all and yourthinking capacity. Otherwise could be a lay man.Jai Sri Krishnabaiya sathyanarayan------------------------------Pranam

God exists. If you want solid evidence I recommend you searchon "milkmiracle" You will see for your self.

bvmJai Shree Ram------------------------------

Dear Mumukshus (those who yearn for Divinity), Namaste. For thosewho yearn for Divinity's Peak Experience, no such doubt arises; infact their question would be why shd they have doubt in God!Doubting God takes one nowhere.

Trying to reach the divinity is the correct way. There is no proofof the dreams we have very regularLy. They don't 'exist' in thesense of all these existing objects, you see.

WHERE IS GOD WHOM I DON'T SEE:Do you 'see' the radio waves, electricity, magnetism? Do you seelove, hatred, jealousy? Do they not exist? Why all shd be visible?

WHO HAS SEEN HIM?A lot of people have 'witnessed' 'Him to whom the divinity hasrevealed 'itself'.

WHO IS HE? - HOW IS HE LIKE?He is She and is That. One form for one thing is inapplicable inthat experience of visioning the Reality which is The Absolute amongthe experiences.

IF I DON'T KNOW HOW DO I ACCEPT?The dead people, unborn people, people who are far away - you can'tsee them. Do you lose belief in such invisible all? Be honest inanswering these abstract questions.

GOD IS A SCHAKLE . . . GOODNESS.God is not directly linked to morality, goodness, honesty, kindnessetc which we teach for our youngsters to whom we want good futureand for building in them the moral character which saves oursociety. All honest people won't see God; no dishonest person cansee God.

THERE HAS TO BE SOME BASIS FOR THE EXISTENCE OF GOD. WHAT ARE THELOGICS FOR THE EXISTENCE OF GOD? FROM WHERE TO PICK THE THREAD?We do ask for proofs for the objective things only. God astranscendental baffles those objectives. There is no harm in thedisbelief about God. But missing a chance of His experience whileborn as human beings is to miss a great opportunity. We do all thosethings of happiness. enjoying etc for which we can afford. We canafford to have a Peak Experience in this human life. Why not try?If you surf the Youtube on the Internet, try among them thespiritual masters' sayings. Ramana Maharshi, NisargaduttaMaharaj . . there are scores of them who are the proofs of God.You may want to read Tony Parsons book, 'The Open Secret'.

I am not glorifying him or anybody in this context. I wanted toshare with people who are seekers like me. I wish all our people thebest of luck during this Christmas and Happiness in the New Year.

Dr Shastry--------------------------------1. Where is God I have never seen Him? You cant see HIM as HE is NOTan object. Have you seen Saturn planet? How do you belive thatscientist? You believe based on Knowledge. In temples 2000 years oldthere are nine planets know as Nava Graha. How they saints knewwithout scientific proof.2. Who has seen Him? 100 `s of saints. In Duryodhan Shaba when SriKrishna took Virat roop, everyone folded their hand and seen HIM asGod except Duryodhan who told it was illusion.3. How is He? HE is formless and with form or any form HIS devoteneeds.4. If I dont know how do I accept? If you dont know, try to know.Still your if you fail- It Gods will. Yasodha accepted Sri Krishnawith love and compassion, so she tie HIM up with rope to a roller.Duryodhan wanted to tie up Sri krishna who took Virat roop unable totie up. It is the way you accept.Jai Sri Krishna

baiya sathyanarayanPRIOR POSTINGJai Hanuman

I agree entirely with Usha Sridhar. Dear Sister! Keep writingregularly . You are precise, accurate and perfect. So is SisterAnita- absolutely correct and "really" .practical and therefore onthe path of Gita 7:19 ! Welcome Brother Wilson ! Welcome Ram Bhai !O Daddy the Great ! Let such "Divinity" continue flowing unto thisGT Group ! So Pleasing ! So unbelievable !! So many reasons toexclaim with pleasure- "Brilliant" !

Thanks Sarphod ! How is your Begum Sahibaa ! It is a sin to make hercry- Get me ? SIN - I say! Do you understand what is sin? "Anguishof your soul" is most of the times " your sin" - also ! AlmostAlways!

Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj would often say that what is the proofthat Mr X is your father - BASED ON YOUR PERSONAL/ INDIVIDUAL/REMEMBERED/EXPERIENTIAL-"KNOWLEDGE"?

No body, come what may, has been able to "prove" in the past, norcan they do so in the present , nor will they be able to "prove"that in the future ! Nor can there be any possibility of provingthat. If you can't "prove" the existence of your even this father onearth, how can you prove the existence of your "eternal father"?

Reason: "Self" Proven ! Obvious !! Beyond Mind/ Intellect/Ego !

"Acceptance"/ "Faith" / "Belief" - is the only remedy. If some bodywants to argue on this - Come On !! Hats off to you BrotherWilson !! Please keep contributing and participating in thisSatsanga forum!

Mike Bhaiyya ! I gleefully noted three things in your latestmessage -

1 An Aussie !2 Clever 'little' dialogue!! ( Jeeva -Maya - Jagdish. Maya is in thecenter. Noted that Brother? Between the two ! )

Above all -

3 Flowers in the Sky !!!!

(What an effort by You? What a research ! How well read , indeed !So difficult! Yet so obvious ! So handy ! So quick - within hours ofposting the 'little dialogue' ! So Self Proven ! So inaccessible !Yet so easily available !

But available in the universe to whom ? Available why ? How timelyand exactly ?

Sure, the poem was already existing in this creation / uiniverse fora long long time- it was not Mike Keenor made- but what about itsmanifestation !! )

Thanks indeed ! Unbelievable! "DIVINE" !! Do you get us MrSarphod? - We are Sadhaks ! Only "Sadhaks" !

Namaste JeeJee JeeShashikala---

Dear Vyasji,

You have answered beautifully. But, the problem is that Tabalchi jiis more interested in getting 'brilliant' and similar appreciatorycomments from others (as is evident from his second mail).

Before trying to know God (Where is God I have never seen Him? isTabalchi ji's first question), he should explain what he is. If heknows about himself, then he will see God's smiling face. Again, theproblem is that Tabalchiji is depending on others even to know "koaham (who am I)"

May I quote from Shankara ? "KASHTWAM KOHAM KUTAH AAYAATAH, KA MEJANANI KO ME TATAH" (who are you, who am I, from where have I come,who is my mother and who is my father).

Kind regards,Suresh C SharmaPRIOR POSTINGHari Om

One who has thirst inside, only can see water. If there is nothirst, inspite of water being in your front, it is not noticed byyou. Similarly , one who has thirst for God only can "see" God, andone who has thirst for world only, "sees" the world.

It is your desire which in fact determines what you can or can notsee- IRRESPECTIVE OF WHAT IN FACT EXIST OR DOES NOT EXIST.

Because of your desire for the world only you see the world which inreality NEVER EXISTS. Because of your non-desire only you can notsee God who in reality ALWAYS EXISTS !!

Want to see God? Mr Sarphod? Develop desire for Him !!

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B----------------------------

Dear members,

This is the first time I am writing on this forum - not because Ididnt wish to comment earIier, but only because I am too young inthis stage - by experience and by learning.However, looking at the questions raised below, I thought I shouldat least share my feelings:

1.God is no external being - he or she is part of each one of us -all living beings. So please, do not try to explain to children thatgod is some type of other person. And therefore, each one of us hasthe responsibility to lead a life which moves towards positivity,looking at betterment, and not hurting people, beings by our act.

Seeing GOD - we all have. Only some have realised him. He is in mymaid who comes to work each morning, he is in my child - who hugs meevery time I meet him, he is in my husband - who lives with me andhas made my life complete. I have seen him in the rickshaw walla -who stopped by me to offer me ride to office yesterday. I see himevery day in different forms - sometimes, I too do not realise thatit was him who smiled in the morning and made my day. Everytime youmeet a person who does good to you - he or she is a reflection ofGOD. So, see god in all and see all in him.2.The world is like stage (as Shakespears has said) - and all of usare in here to play a role - be it tree, human, animal, you and me.And so is a child here to play a role. All our roles are defined bythis supreme power, whom we call GOD.

3. There are many happenings in our life which we humans are notable to explain - all this we credit to that UnKnowableforce/energy - GOD.

Try to see GOD in your family - your parents, your collegues, yourneighbours, and all the people whom you meet - search for that lightin them and do a small good act to make them happy. GOD would bethere with you!

Anita Sharma-------------------------Maybe my use of the word brilliant, can be misconstrued,a little tooAussie, it was intended as a exclamation of pleasure.

I know you are playing the roll of 'devils advocate', as clearly youwould understand, Maya and Jeeva in Jee Jee Shashikalaji's cleverlittle dialog.

Best to direct a single question to a Sadhak/Sadhaks.

See Zen poem below:(Emptiness in full Bloom).

Leaping from the Ledge of Infinite Regress,The Unmoved Mover fell into Formlessness:Pure silence echoed between the galaxies,Eons of eons vanished in a second,Withered trees bloomed in fires,Polar mountains melted, rivers went dry,Thusness scattered in sixty directions,Space became Time, time became things,Black Holes filled with Nirvana,A billion samadhi mirrors shattered,Galaxies snuggled within a single skull,Many became One, One only, only One.Then, the Divine Illuminatrix in All BeingsOpened Her clouded Eye, to see:Flowers in the Sky.

With Respect and Divine Love,

Mike Keenor

--------------------------Hari Om.

Respected sir,I've studied from my childhood that motheris our first GOd.We can see God only through our mother,father and Guru.Where is the proof that you came through your mother's womb?If you can explain how you passed through your mother with proof,I can explain with Krushna's Grace the true Krushna provided youhave the permission to see Krushna.Rest in my next.Hari Om.With Regards,Ushasridhar.

--------------------------

Jesus Says.I am the way, I am the Truth, I am the Faith. Please read the Bible.thanksWilson Kochukunju

Dear Mr. Sarfod & friends,

Since the beginning of human civilization, the question whetherthere is a God (or Gods), has occupied the human mind. It has alsobeen answered by various people in various ways in all the ages.But, the question has persisted till this day.

I have my own explanation. I emphatically say that Parmatma doesexist. The entire universe is within Him and He is also beyond theUniverse. He is so great and also so small that nobody can see Himwith his naked eye. He can only be realized. Regarding proof, everyliving being and every plant testifies His existence. With his super-intelligence, man has been able to do most amazing things andcreated wonders. But, man is still way behind in creating anythingthat is self generating. Every creation of God, on the other hand,is self-generating and self sustaining. Reproduction is a specialfeature of every species. Yet, every species has a life-time afterwhich it vanishes. Even this earth will meet its death some day. Wesee planets and stars dying and new ones coming up every day. Thisnever ending cyclic order of creation, recreation, assimilation andre-emergence is a glaring proof of His existence.

Yours sincerely,Ram Bhai------------------------------Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!Varunji, I want to thank you so much for speaking out to Tabalchijiabout I being not judgemental at all. As a friend and a fellowseeker, I was suggesting, Tabalchiji to read as many times as neededto grasp the meaning or at least ask questions to clarify points.Most of us know that when we read or hear 2nd or 3rd time it makesso much difference in our understanding!I want to wish you the very best Tabalchiji. One day you may wake upand find all answers about Truth of God, this world and "you".All sadhakas have provided excellent answers/pointers!Wishing you the best of Xmas Holidays and New Year, my fellowsadhaks, I remain prayerful!Namaskar......Pratap Bhatt

 

-------------------------------PRIOR POSTING-Shree Hari-

Sarphodji,

You know; the world as you see it, is a shadow of what it really is,I once heard it described as seeing the reflections of reality on theback of a cave wall, one has to turn around to see the glory of whatit is.Most people it seems, focus their whole lives looking at the falsereality reflected on the wall of the cave.Have we not all read about Yogis with extraordinary abilities? Isthis all lies, do such souls look on the doubters such as yourself,say nothing, smile or laugh as Lord Krishna laughed, they havenothing to prove , all the doubters have to do is turn around as itwere, to understand.

One great soul that I admire was Swami Vivekananda, to me he seems tobe a man ahead of his time, a person of great intellect, and aspiritual giant. It was he that aroused the world to the wealth thatIndia had to give.

11th September, 1893: 'Response to welcome' address:

"Swami Vivekananda addressed the august assembly of seven thousandpeople starting with the words: "Sisters and Brothers of America...",and the whole of audience went into inexplicable rapture withstandingovation and clapping that lasted for more than three minutes......."

If you consider you have a mind of sound reasoning, then maybe youcould read the yoga aphorisms, translated by that great Swami. (Ifyou require any translation).

Why does your Lady weep, is it because she sees the anguish of yoursoul. No matter what you may say or truly think, you are in conflict,do you understand ? Jee Jee Shashikalaji has hinted at it, otherSadhaks have made the point also, things like why ask about thatwhichdoes not exist etc.Sadhaks have implied that they have been through that battle. Ihave,I will tell you this, how much you reach for Father, how much you cryfor him, the tears of anguish will then turn to tears of joy, whenyour heart breaks loose from prison that binds it.

You may not understand what I am writing about, but one day you will.

With Respect and Divine Love,

Mike Keenor-----------------------------Dear Sadaks,I have not seen God yet. That is the reason I am not silent. The onewho has seen God remains silent. Let us not make tell Mr.SherphodVedanta/Upanashids.1.Where is God I have never seen Him? To see a program on TV, oneneeds TV Equipment, Power (electricity), and telecasting tower2. Who has seen Him? One who has turned his body equipment as atemple, Power of tuning (Craving to liberate) in mind, as mind haselectricity, magnatism, and telecasting tower (GOD) omnipresent.Just one has to tune to HIS frequency that is surrender.3. How is He? HE is benevolent to come in any form you meditate.4. If I dont know how do I accept? Go on saying any name of HIS.Eventually HE will tune to your frequency as HE did to Druva.Jai Sri Krishnabaiya sathyanarayan----------------------------

Dear Sirphod

I made a posting on your question. There was no attempt by me or forthat matter by any body (from the posts I see) who could give youanswers like you might be expected.

If you want to learn about God (accept or otherwise is a differentissue) you need to spend time and energy. You can select a Guru whocan help you. I do not see from your postings you have thisexpectation, but the one below.

But if your goal is to dispute existence of God, there could beanohter forum that must be working on such attempts.

By the way you can come out with your real name.

Venu Komanduri

PRIOR POSTING

Hi Sarphod Tabalchi,1. Where is God I have never seen Him?It seems you never tried to see God. Seeing God is not possible byour physical eye. Those who have an insight of God only can see God.If you try sincerely seeing God is would not be a problem. There aremany ways prescribed in our scriptures. First, Have faith in it.Then after you never deny God.2. Who has seen Him?I see Him always and communicate with Him. Not only with God, I talkto birds and animals. I can understand them and they understand me.3. How is He?He is always Happy. He never deny anything. He never denied myexistence. He wants everyone happy.4. If I dont know how do I accept?Dont reejct anything. Accept everything as it is. Never expectanything in your way accept everything as it is. Keep God in yourmind if you dont know God. Chant Oh God Oh God Oh my God wheneveryou want deny God.5. God is a term coined by elders to put moral shackles over us sothat we may indulge in goodness.If you know this much of God you should not deny God.6. There has to be some basis for his existence? What are the logicswhich point towards the existence of God? From where to pick thethread?First you ask your Parents who are patient to teach you the basicconcept of God existence. Once you have prerequesites to learn GodGod comes to you automatically. Be Patient. Can you ever see theelectricity passing through a wire. A bulb is shining, Have you everenquired about the electricity which illumines the bulb? Think aboutTV., Fridge, Air Conditioner etc., etc. whcih can not functionwithout electricity. Even you can not ask these questions withoutthat power unseen in you. My dear beleive in God is far easier thandenying God.Lovingly, Krishna (Shobha) Das

------------------------Wonderful testing of sadhaks by Tabalchi jiWe all must thank him for the excellent questions and for giving anopportunity to better our understanding in the spiritual domain.

All questions have very easy answers. Excellent expression by allsadhaks...in answering these.

But it is very difficult to satisfy the questioner on the answers.since these very questions cloud everything....and become obstaclesto understanding the truthsince it is about knowing the questioner first............knowing orseeing God comes much later.....

It has happened to perhaps all of us in the beginning and we mayhave gone through this period.But if we are able to contemplate on the questions with someguidance, question begin to dissolve/disappear........and theanswers start looking meaningful........

So, Tabalchi ji and the begum sahiba could start with contemplatingexercise on the questions firstfor example:

Q1 Where is God? ----contemplate on......where it should be? whatcould be the place where it could be,why it can not be hear with us?Q2 Does God exist? ---- Contemplate on.....Who am I? ask yourselfrepeatedly who am I?Q3 Who has seen him is irrelevant? My seeing is important socontemplate on questions - Why I don't see the God? Can I see it?What could it look like? What should it be?Q4 If I don't know how do I accept? Contemplate on What I don'tknow? Do I know all? How can I know more?Q5 Any other word other than God could be used for it. Contemplateon: Is goodness gives happiness? Are moral values important? Whywe need to fear the word God to be good?Q6 Contemplate on questions: What is basis of its existence? Whatis the basis of our existence? What God must exist? Why prophetshave to come to this world? Who are these prophets?

See what comes as answers. It is a good learningexercise......answers are within and we must practice to startlistening.....everyone has to do this for himself..............bestwishes......Thank you....Sushil Jain

----------------------------Dear Sarphod:

I have similar questions that you have.

Following is the status of those questions (mind you not answers):

1. Just beacuse I can not see GOD, that does not mean that there isnothing like GOD which exists, since there are so many things thatexist and yet I can not see (ex: Air, Gases and so many unknowns tomankind yet)

2. Same way as I have the question on the existence of GOD, I alsohave the question on my question itself, i.e. I can not prove thatthere is no GOD either.

3. Say suppose some one suddenly shows me the GOD, what are my testsand verifications to accept him/her/it as GOD. Do I have all thosetools, a big NO (I am not sure about you)

4. Even if I have all those tools to test the existence of GOD andall the tests are proved positive, then is it going to help me. Thatmeans, do I have the right objective to find out this very unusualthing called GOD? What is that single biggest thing that isbothering me about finding out this GOD? Does it have theseriousness to find out the GOD? If it does all the above questionsshould be answerd positively. Or else, I am not sincere in my quest.

5. I might not have all these tools right now, yet I have the questto know about the existence of GOD, then I do not jump in to quickconclusions like "There is no GOD, this forum is not DIVINE, etc.,"because that conclusion neither helps me nor taps in to the rightsources of knowledge. I will be just fooling myself saying "I askeda question which this forum is not able to answer"

Just for the record, I remember in the whole known history ofmankind, only one person (Sri Ramakrishna Paramahansa) has admittedto have seen GOD and was ready to show GOD to the one who wasearnestly with deepest intellectual anxiety and sincerity (SwamiVivekananda).

The one who has shown and the one who was shown the GOD did not havequestions. The SOURCE and the SINK are in the perfect state of mind,one to give and the other to receive. Am I in the equanimity levelsof Swami Vivekananda? I don't think I am and let me know if you are.

If you think you are, just stay there with sincere hope, ARAMAKRISHNA will happen to you and your intellectual quest might befulfilled.

If not I need to get there before I start looking for GOD. Till suchtime, GOD is tentative truth for me.

With a hope it might help you,Sincerely,Krishna (devangam krishnamurthy)Hare Krishna

Sarphod, you have praised me by saying "I am very good". FYI! I wasnot entertaining you but I was questioning YOUR very existence. Youdon't have any doubt in your existence still you cannot prove it.Why so?? Have you thought over it?? If you can prove it (with yourlogic/rationale) then why don't you do it?

Mikeji called you brilliant (I wonder why) but he has also calledyou inflexible. But I think you have not noted that. He, Vyasji,Pratapji and others have also given many points. You should thinkover it, compare it with your logic and then prove it wrong. But forthis one need guts, because you will have to keep aside yourprejudices to think over others' points. Even if you are not able toprove us wrong it does not mean that we can make you accept God, wecan only give logics/rationale.

No one can force anyone to accept God, especially those who do notrespect their father. If you cannot respect your father than how canyou accept and respect the biggest father (Param-PitaParmeshwar).Your father has deserted you and your wife also seems tobe upset with your adamant attitude, but you still don't have anyshame in admitting it. Rather than introspecting over your attitudeyou are defending it.

Pratapji has not passed any judgment; it is you who is passingjudgments. Mike is best, Varun is very good, Vyas NB is making methink. If these are not judgements then what is it? Pratapji hascorrectly pointed out that you are not reading posts with an openmind.

You have posted these questions only because your wife has directedyou to this group. This is the biggest problem because you are notinterested in knowing or learning anything, you are only askingthese questions just for the sake of it, just for a mere formality.

Mrs. Sarphod, please don't insist your husband to post questions. Heis only wasting our time and also don't reveal him anything aboutGita, because if you do so you will unnecessarily incur sin (Gita18.67)

You cannot see God or feel His presence but you definitely feel yourexistence as "I AM", right? Then why can't you prove it with yourlogic. I have asked 3 questions w.r.t. your existence but did notget any reply.

Hare KrishnaVarun P. Paprunia---------------------

Jai Hanuman

Mr Sarphod ! So you do not think or talk or desire regarding "flower of sky"- because it does not exist. You yourself said that.You can think/desire/talk about only that thing which exists.

Now this is the biggest proof. You thought about God. You talkedabout God. You desired to know about God. You raised questions inthis forum about God. How can you do that- if God does not exist?

If you can do that then why did you not talk about "flower of sky"?As a law you can desire about only that thing which exists.

Answer now! To the point only. ONLY to the point.

You said yourself that you would believe in your parents even ifthey were dead immediately after your birth, because there is abasis. The presence of yourself itself is an indicator of theirexistence. True. Now go backwards. Presence of your parents meansyour grand parents were there. Go backwards and keep going. In theend you will find one male and one female. Who were their parents?

God is "Param Pita" - our eternal father.

Clear?

Namaste Jee

Jee JeeShashikala

 

----------------------Hari Om

You wanted as to what is sample of God. Answer as given by Varunjiis correct. You , yourself, are "sample" of God ! Because like God,you are also permanent and faultless. Everybody "experiences" that -I EXIST. ( You talked about experiencing- I am talking aboutexperience only) . Do you have any doubt Mr Sarphod that you are notexisting ? You never have any doubt on this. You never conduct anytest to determine whether you exist or not. You neverexperience/feel that - I DID NOT EXIST. About past you may saythat "I don't know", but you can't say "I didn't exist" ! How canyou say so?

Why can't you say? Because you have never perceived your"self" tobe non existing. Non existence of your"self" has never come intoyour experience. Even in respect of the daily occuring of deepsleep, your experience never suggests that at that time you were nonexistent. But at the same time you experience directly theabsence of ego, intellect, mind and body etc., in the deep sleep.

So you exist.So He exists.

Now you are constantly experiencing changes/temporariness in yourbody. Who can experience that? Only that element (Self) which ispermanent and changeless and who is looking separately canexperience so..

So you are permanent. You are witness. You are changeless. You arenot body. You exist both with or without body. You exist.

Similarly God is also permanent. God is also witness. God is alsochangeless. God exists both with or without body. God exists.

So you exist. At present you are existing Mr Sarphod Now in yourbody. In which part of the body you are existing Mr Sarphod? Inwhich part of the body you are not existing Mr Sarphod? In fact youare existing everywhere in the body.

God exists everywhere in the universe as you exist everywhere inthe body.

Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B------------------------------By summery of GITA: "Tat Twam Asi" or 'That You Are'This logic is explained by Many in different way, as Jesus : "Keepyour self as pure as a Temple, so that GOD can reside in you"As the world today is more scientific, we require proof by ourSenses.No machine can prove Logic.By psychologist EEG machine shows that Yog has a point when we gainenergy from vast outer energy when we Join our inner energy during ameditative state.Todays scientific terms were not expressed before. So we can saypositive Energy in us and arround is GOD.This GOD creates and increases, but the negative energy will growonly to destroy and eliminate named 'devil' !The different State of Mind or Self is depicted in the Epics ofRamayana and Mahabharata by the characters playing in the theatre ofthis World.The Conditions of Heaven and Hell are also due to this state of self.

'Tat Twam Asi' in definition of GOD as 'Bramah-Vishnu-Maheshwar' isalso what we see in us.Psychological mind as Male-Female has in us as a Child, Learning andCreating with help of 'Sarswati-Bramah'. Then as we are in ourYouth, we Earn and Run our life with the help of 'Laxmi-Vishnu'. Atthe end of life our Old age, Eliminate and Destroy many beliefs withthe help of 'Shakti-Shiv'. Thus we prepare our self for the nextbirth. The Energy, called 'spirit' by many, is indistructible andchange form. We can ralise it and can even see as Vivekananda(nonbeliever of statue) was shown by Guru Ramakrishna(ardent idolworshiper). The idol is the Mirror to see our self !--RegardsSwapan PURKAYASTHA

 

--------------------------------PRIOR POSTING

Dear Sarphod:

I adore your persistence to what you think is right - that is a goodquality to seek truth. At the same time, I am a bit disappointed inits lopsidedness! It is not clear what you want, frankly.

I have two questions for you: Are you afraid of "God"? Do you urgefor "God"?

If "YES" to any of these questions, you have a problem. You can'tstick to your current logical conviction. It is obvious that yourcurrent logical conviction irrespective of its self-proclaimedexcellence is JUST NOT DOING ITS JOB :(. Your logical provess canclaim accolades ONLY IF it removes your fears and quench yourdesires.If not removal, at least a nominal reduction in their intensity iswarranted ... if your intellect is working straight.

If "NO" to any of these questions, I see a bigger problem. Why areyou confusing yourself with these questions. That "NO" becomesmeaningless just because you are incapable of letting the veryquestions go! The very reason you are raising these questions provethat you are infested either by fear or by desire or by bothregarding "God". THAT IS EXCELLENT!

Then, it is "YOUR" primary responsibility to address the same. As Imentioned earlier, your current intellect is incapable of helping youout. Then, you have to make a shift in your thinking to inspect theignorance harbored within. Pardon me for calling it ignorance. But,the fact is ... it is. Inherent fears and desires can never let anindividual happy. They create the turbulence within in terms ofthemselves. The existence of miseries is proof enough that we are notapplying our intellect in the right direction. After all, it iscommon sense that we do everything ONLY FOR ONE REASON - to behappy. I am sure you agree with it.

The question is are you happy with these questions as such or are youreally interested in a possible solution. If you are happy with thesequestions, be happy. You can never get the solution though! If youreally need a solution, QUESTION the very questions. That is the onlyway out left for you to be happy. Do you have any other choice? Ifyou have, please pursue. Being happy is the bottom line of allactions ... being happy ... being happy but nothing else.

Nobody can instruct you what God Is! You have to figure it outyourself.

I don't know who misled you that this or anything specific "is adevine forum" as if anything else is not! If you seek divinity,everything is devine. If not, some may claim "divinity" as if therest is not. Please do not get trapped into such notions ... if youreally want to seek clarity regarding your question. Question yourquestions ... TRUTHFULLY. You will see the end of the tunnel.

Again, PLEASE DO NOT EXPECT OR INSIST FOR EXPLICIT INSTRUCTIONSREGARDING GOD. YOU WILL NOT GET ANY ANSWER ... UNLESSS ... YOU SEE ITWITHIN YOURSELF! The only suggestion I can make is ... look for ITwithin. Because, looking out all these years has seemingly remainedfutile! There is no point in digging into others' psyche when mine isnot receptive enough. If I insist to continue, I can guarantee myselfof more confusion to come!! Because ... GOD cannot be held within any"psyche" as such.

Anyway, just few suggestions to think about ... think about it if youwant ... ONLY IF YOU WANT.

All The Best.

Respects.

Naga Narayana

 

PRIOR POSTINGDear "Sadhaks" (?)

Why my simple questions are not getting answered. Shashikalajeeasked me some questions, instead of replying to me. I , upon theadvice of my Begum Saahiba humbly replied to her. Now instead ofresponding to me, she has given a conversation between a son and hismother. My Begum is insisting to me that I should again and againread that. OK I will do that. But let me answer her anotherquestion. I have not desired to smell "flower of sky" , because itdoes not exist. Sometimes I feel that both my Begum Sahibaa and youSadhaks have lost mind. What a funny question Shashikalajee hasasked. How can I desire or talk or know about a thing which doesn"texist? This is my basic fundamental and solid argument. Vyas N B isgiving indicators which require me to think. I am thinking. But thebest among you is Mike Keenor. He told me to remain solid. Headviced me to remain tenacious, merciless and hang on. I am hangingon. But then why Vineet Sarvottam told me lies? Varun Paprunia gavehim a fitting reply. Varun - you are very good. This Pratap Bhattis rebuking me. Why? What is my fault. On one hand you are simplygiving me round round answers. On other hand you are passingjudgement. Is this a conduct of a sadhak. Please reply to me. Orsay - none of you have capacity to answer my simple questions. MyBegum Sahibaa has already started crying. Have mercy on her atleast. But Mike praised me. He called me "brilliant".

Waiting for answers.

Sarphod Tabalchi---------------------------We all struggle with these questions. The answers I found logical isthis: There is something beyond mind and matter. Some will call thatsomething Omnipotent, Omniscient, Omnipresent. Others will call itrandom nothing. Another question one hears is why do I want to knowThat Something. To Know, or to Control it? Here in lies the paradoxand answer: If it is to know only: He is right there with you,within you: The Life, Love Peace. If it is to control so that wecontrol our surrounding: That is the struggle of Ego. Arjuna had tosee the Universal form to get over the final hurdle.Jay Shree Krishna.

Hemendra Parikh-------------------------------Dear devotees of Lord Krishna,The discussion is interesting. I learned the gita much better afterseeing the life experience of a realized lady, who had darshan ofLord Krishna ( first darshan of Lords feet after chanting a slokafrom 10 th chapter of Gita for 30,000 times continuously for 30days ). Her conversations with the Lord have been recorded inTamil, and can be shared with the group if interested.With kind regards,Sincerely,P.Vivekanandan-------------------------------

Try Brahmacharya ( the vow of celibacy in thought, word and deed, bywhich one attains Self-realisation or reaches Brahman) and you willsee for yourself the value.

The Srutis declare: "Naayam Atma balaheenena labhyah - This Atman isnot attainable by a weak man." In the Gita you willfind: "Yadichhanto brahmacharyam charanti - That desiring whichBrahmacharya is performed" (Chap. VIII-11). "Trividham narakasyedamdvaram nasanamatmanah; kamah krodhastatha lobhastasmad etat trayamtyajet - O Arjuna! Triple is the gate of the hell, destructive ofthe Self; lust, wrath and greed: therefore let man renounce thesethree" (Chap. XVI-21). "Jahi satrum mahabaho kamarupam durasadam -Kill this powerful enemy, passion, by the observance ofBrahmacharya" (Chap. III-43).

If we are determined to attain the goal of life by leading a purelife, we must keep this mind busily engaged in Divine thoughts,concentration, meditation, study and service of humanity.

It is difficult to eradicate lust. But you need not despair even abit. Have faith in God, in His Name and in His grace. Lust cannot becompletely rooted out of the mind except by the grace of the Lord.You are bound to succeed if you have faith in Him. The Divine Graceis needed. God helps those who help themselves.

Until man continues to cling to worldliness, Paramatma cannot begrasped by him.

You can read more about this in the "Easy Steps to Yoga" by SriSwami Sivananda.chirag almoula

--------------------------------PRIOR POSTING

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!Tabalchiji, with all the respect for you and questions, I may pointout that no one can make anyone see anything let alone God if thatperson doesn't want to see. It seems like you may be insistent uponseeing God in the way you want to see.Please forgive me if I am wrong, but as a friend I am saying. Itseems like you may not have read the postings with open mind, withthe desire to know the truth. Open mind doesn't mean accepting, itmeans you must give a fair reading/hearing and then asking pertinentquestions or raise doubts based on what is read. Here your responsesindicate you have decided that God cannot exist for you if youcannot see or have some logic to prove God's existence. One has tosee that "seeing God" means deep understanding of intuitive naturein this context where mind being limited cannot comprehend. It hasto be prepared to be open. Our conditioned mind is incapable ofgrasping truth.Some of us provided solid logic, but it still fell short to make yousee the pointers.I said one cannot say "I don't see God" without knowing what God heis looking that he cannot find. One has to know what one wants tosee, right? One can say "I don't know God, tell me what/where Ishould look, and how to recognize". It is different than show meGod, right?Once again, God is the Conscious/Intelligent Existence as reflectedin our experience of "I am" right now as you read these words. Infirst posting, dialogue was used to illustrate it as a solid proofone cannot deny.There are ways to experience God for which senses-mind-intellect isnot capable like they are for knowing objects. Nevertheless, thereis proof of God more reliable than that.But this point didn't make any impression.I request you with humility to re-read responses again and see whathappens!Namaskar..............Pratap Bhatt-------------------------------Hare Krishna

Okay Mr. Sarphod,

Let's put God's existence out of equation for a moment and onlydiscuss about sample/logics/rationales w.r.t. YOUR existence.

I AM

Well, you don't have any doubt in your existence, right? Your bodyhas changed and it is rapidly changing every second. But Mr.Sarphod, is you also changing with the body? You are certainly notchanging with it because if you were changing then who would haveknown the change in body? You are that changeless element who knowsthe change in body. Isn't it? Childhood, youth, old age are thechanging phases of the body but you are that changeless element whois witness to all these changes. It is a law that only a changelesselement can perceive the ever-changing element. My question - Whatis the basis of your never-changing existence? If you considerbody's existence as your existence then you are defying all logic,because body is changing every second!!!

I and MINE

It is a law that whatever is mine, it is never I. For example youconsider your house, car, wife, children etc. as mine but you neverconsider them as I. But in the case of body you say 'my hands, mylegs, my stomach, my ears, my eyes, my throat etc.' andsimultaneously you also consider it as 'I' e.g. I am not feelingwell. You establish two transversal relationships with the body,that of 'I' and 'MINE'. Whichever thing is mine it is always apart(separate) from you, and that thing which is separate from you, howcan it be I? This body is also apart from you but still you call itas I. Is this logical?

Mr. Sarphod, now I wish to see you. Can you show me yourself???Ohh... please don't show me that body which you claim it as mine. Iwant to see that Mr. Sarphod who claims the body as mine. In otherwords, I want to see that element which you refer to as I?

Before that I am eager to know whether you have ever seen yourself.According to you anything that exists is perceptible. So Mr.Sarphod, with which instrument have you seen yourself?

If you have not seen yourself then, well ..... do you exist ?????

And at last one more question- Whose name is Sarphod - body oryourself?

Mr. Sarphod, with your logics/samples/rationales etc., first prove

1. Your existence.2. The basis of your existence.3. The instrument with which you have seen/felt your existence.

Then we will also discuss about God's existence....

As Sarphodji is contemplating over his existence, in the mean time,those sadhaks whose faith in God has dwindled with his questions,they are requested to read this Sadhaka postingsadhaka/message/2108

Hare KrishnaVarun P. Paprunia-------------------------------

Jai Hanuman

(Shrimad Bhagvad Geeta- Marathi Edition- By Saint Gyaaneshwarji-Chapter 13- Kalyaan- By Narainduttji Gaur )

Jeeva ( J) (We all- as referred in BG 15:7) :

Mom pls tell me , when I was born?

Maya , Mother Nature, Prakrati, Illusion (As referred in BG 7: 13/14)( M ) :

( Irritated) What non sense! Is it some thing to be told? (By a Momto Son?)

J: If mother doesn't tell, who will?

M: How to tell you? I came only after you !

J: Typical Mom ! Means- I came first and then you? Surprising? Isn'tit?

M: You won't understand. Be silent and sleep!

J: Come On ! First me ..! And then You ...!! (How can it be?) Plstell me the story ! Please !!

M: I told you. You won't understand! Many big people even could not.

J: Ok ! Then my Father can let me understand. Take me to Him, please.

M: ( Curtly) Stop this song of Father, Father. Your Father is Fatheronly for the name sake.In fact, I have to do every thing.

J: Does He not do anything?

M: What can He do? He is old, ancient, poor fellow (eternal) ! Thentotally actionless! Absolutely non-doer! Neither hands, nor legs,nor eyes, nor ears! Nothing in fact! Look Kid ! Whatever colour ,form etc of the world which you are seeing is my miracle, my form,my competence, my work ! Ok? Your Father has neither any form, norany beauty. What beauty He can impart to the world?

J: But all say that He is the real Creator. See Mom! Whatever is myFather, He is my Father! Ok? His insult...??

M: Insult! What insult? Whose insult? One who does not have anycaste or creed, any family or varna, any city or village- what canbe His respect or disrespect?

J: How bad He will feel, if He listens to what you are saying?

M: Even if He gets annoyed, what can He do? One who neither moves,nor walks, nor travels, nor laughs, nor cries, nor speaks, neitherany juice, nor any taste, nor any play !!! This entireexhibition/show I run, Dear Son !!

J But out there on Gate (of the circus) His name is written, O Mom !!

M: Ultimately you will take side of your Father only. Afterall youare His son!

J: O Mom of the Universe! Why did not you put name of yours on thefront gate of this Great Circus? ( The world)

M: How to put my name. This is the real trgedy. You won'tunderstand, Son. I, the creator and controller of uncountableuniverses can not do any thing by my name!! (Ramcharitmanas- 5/21/4)

J: Don't be sad and sorry Mom! What is the matter?

M: It is very secret, Son! If by seeing my banner outside the gate,if somebody wants to meet with me, he will be disappointed. Son!Please understand my pain. One is lazy ( does nothing), has noorgans, is actionless- those who want to search such (an element)person , they search Him merely by His name! (Ramcharitmanas-1/26/2). But to me, even when I am controlling entire sentient andinsentient world, if some body wants to search, CANNOT find! Cannotsearch.

J: Why not Mom?

M: (With tears in her eyes) Because, in reality, I don't exist. I amfalse. I am asat. I am non existent. My "not being" is my "being".Whatever is not- I am that. I am no-thing.

J: And whatever is there, that is who? Who is that?

M: He is your Father, Son!

J: (In mind, talking with himself only, Son thinks/says - Hats offto you Mom! When you don't exist, then this is the scene of theworld that even Lord Shiva , Brahma are afraid of you -Ramcharitmanas 7/71/8- had you existed "actually" Mom then.....)

O my No-thing Mom! When you don't even exist , then on whose poweryou run this circus called the world?

M: What to tell you, Son? I can tell you only this much that, ofWhose a mere flicker of eyebrow, I do rule the uncountableuniverses, I can't dare/ don't have courage to face Him. I do runthis circus only on His strength.

J : O My Unconquerable Mom! My hundreds of Pranaams to you. Blessme , O Mom! So that I may get my Father!!

While bowing and doing Pranaams to his mother, Jeeva becametranquilised and then in the background divine music played-

"MAAMEVA YA PRAPADYANTE, MAYAMETAM TARANTI YE "

(BG 7:14)

He was He only!

Namaste Jee.

Jee JeeShashikala--------------------------------Shri Hari-

My dear Sarphodji,

A few points to consider, I have said I have been touched by theDivine,(just one way of putting it), such Grace is life changing, Icould be lying or be mad,(I tell the truth), but I know just byreading the things fellow Sadhaks have written that I AM NOT ALONE.Some people come to Bhagwan with ease and joy others take the path offire so to speak, (the hard miles).

In the west there is an expression,'The Dark Night of The Soul', andyes! If it is known in the west it is most absolutely known in theIndian Traditions.(I think Arjuna's predicament reflects that),I willstay using the terminology to which I am most familiar.You say you are deserted, you are not deserted, the Brethren have notdeserted you, and in the Darkest Moment of the Soul, there is a lightshining, that light comes from 'That', which will wash away youtears, 'That' which will break your heart so that you can bemended. Your arguments are not solid dear Brother, not to those thathave felt the embrace of The Beloved. Your inflexibility, combinedwith your determined search, may well introduce you to 'The DarkNight...', the very ONE you rebuked the most, will be the one thatrescues you. I speak from experience not from books.

With Respect and Divine Love,

Mike Keenor

 

PRIOR POSTINGHari Om

If sadhaks can concentrate on giving short pointers / rationalewhich establishes the existence of Supreme Power it will help allin being definitive, have reference material and it will alsostrengthen faith. Ego, Intellect and Mind don't let you agree thateasily. And who knows who may need in the coming turbulent era ofKaliyug, that is lacking in faith and belief. Let us get united.

From discourses of Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj (Taat Shree), whom Ihave solely relied on for a number of years -

Every human being wants the following:

1) To "live for ever". This is desire for SAT (existence). Fear ofdeath is the indicator of that desire.2) To know every thing. No one wants to be unknowlegeable. This isdesire for CHIT (Knowledge).3) To be happy. No one wants to be unhappy. This is desire forANANDA.

Any doubt Mr Sarphod? Now if there is a desire then the element tofulfill that desire must also be there. There must be some one /some element which enables you to "live for ever", to be all knowingand to be ever blissful. Had such an element not existed, we wouldnot have had the desire for the same.

Paramatma is SAT-CHIT-ANANDA.(Sachchidananda)

Raam! Raam!! Raam!!!

To be continued.

Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B------------------------------

Dear Tabalchi ji,

According to J. Krishnamurti "modern so called educated" people wanta little bit of intellectual amusement and therefore they indulge inmeaningless discussions about God and such matters. God cannot bediscussed in this manner, because That Absolute Truth (giveIt/Her/Him any name) is beyond description.Your all the six questions are like the enquiries of a "fullstomach" tourist without an iota of appetite going through the menu,or reading it aloud with his co-friends. If you are really thirstyyou will not indulge in such childish questions about water, butwill try your best to drink it.

I suggest you read Uncommon Wisdom and other books by Dr Capra (aphysic scientist) who has quoted from our Sanskrit literature aboutGod, or read A Brief History of Time by Hawking Stephens (well knownexpert on dark hole and universe) to know the concept of time andspace. At least do go through some writings by Nobel laureate DrEdington (a scientist). Only then, you can be a little serious aboutexploring the great Absolute Truth. Become "jyan-vijyan-triptah" andonly then we can walk together on this spiritual quest.

Regards,Suresh C. Sharma------------------------

Sir,You are asking the oldest question ever being asked. See aroundyou, a sperm has made you upto approximately 6 feet. Who designedthis project and process. Your father and mother only are tools.Inquire within and get the answer.

surender syal--------------------------------

Mitro,Why has this God become famous as "HE" why not "she" or "IT"or "Nothing"? Today's generation will not believe in gibberishbakwaas . The paradox is every religion, every saint says that Godis ONE. But even within Hindus philosophy we see thousands of gods(many names and forms). If God is One then why all the differencesand the fights? How come? Ramchander Homma

------------------------------I agree with Luca Brasi that I should be fairly replied. I haveasked a lot of questions. I want proof/logic and I want to know Howis that Supreme. I want sample. I want rationale. My Begum Saahibaaalso told me that I am head breaker like your Shashikaljee told me.But I never agreed with her so far. I never admitted this version.I am not head or skull breaker. My name suggests that I am mindfixer. Any way how the name matters? I am what I am. I accept myparents because even if I dont remember my birth, they rememberthat. They know that I am their child. I can see them. I can feelthem. I can experience them. I can recognise them. That is why theyare my parents. Where is God? How can I accept God on the groundsthat since I did not know my parents at the time of birth and Iaccepted hence I should accept God also. Children are children. Theydont understand. But I am adult. I understand. My Begum Sahibaacould not satisfy me and hence she asked me to get in touch with youShe said you will satisfy me.I checked with her that I am notsatisfied even after, because I have MOST SOLID arguments, thenwhat? Even my father deserted me because he could not satisfy me.She said such situation will not arise. If I cant see , I cantaccept. Prove to me how one can accept without seeing or feeling orexperiencing or logic or rationale or basis. At least I should feelor experience. Even if my parents were dead at the time of birth,still I would accept that because how can I come without them onthis earth. What is your answer? Pratap or Vineet or Mike orShashikala. My Begum Sahibaa said few things regarding observationsof Vineet also. Please reply- Sadhaks of this selfproclaimed "Divine" site. Dont go by my name. Even my BegumSaahibaa complains regarding my name. What can I do regarding myname Jee?

Sarphod Tabalchi

PRIOR POSTINGHare Krishna

Sarphodji,

Not only can Parmatma be an individual he can also be a fish(Matsya-avatar), a tortoise (Kachchap-avatar), a pig (varaha-avatar),a half lion-half man (Narsimha-avatar) and what not!!!According to Gita, not only can a devotee see God but also know Himand also enter into Him.

Arjuna saidO universal form, O thousand-armed Lord, I wish to see You in Yourfour-armed form, with diadem on your head with club, wheel, conch andlotus flower in Your hands. I long to see You in that form. (11.46)

Sanjaya saidThe Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krishna, having spoken thus toArjuna, displayed His real four-armed form and at last showed Histwo-armed form, thus encouraging the fearful Arjuna. (11.50)

Lord Krishna said:My dear Arjuna, this form of Mine you are now seeing is verydifficultto behold. Even the demigods are ever seeking the opportunity to seethis form, which is so dear.Neither by the study of Vedas, nor by penance, nor by charity, noreven by rituals can I be seen in this form (with four-arms), as Youhave seen Me.O valiant Arjuna, through single-divided devotion, however, I can beseen in this form (with four-arms), known in essence and even enteredinto.My dear Arjuna, he who performs all his duties for Me, depends on Me,is devoted to Me, has no attachment, and is free from malice towardsall beings, reaches Me. (11.52-55)

Please give special attention to the last 2 verses. This will answeryour question of knowing and seeing God.

Yes, I have also read the same in Swamiji's book which your wife hasstated. I consider it to be true because I believe in Swamiji'swords.

Hare KrishnaVarun P. Paprunia------------------------------

Hari Om

No! Sarphodji. Those who want to learn should read carefully andshould learn also to be patient. All sadhaks upto now have givenexcellent observations. I have also given you logics/pointers andwillcontinue to give you till you get satisfied. I agree with Luca thatthere must be logics/rationale existing. It is another matter, as MrVineet stated, that they are pointless once you proceed ahead. Butstill questions are questions and your insistence , though, odd butstill should be respected. Your "Begum Sahibaa" appears to havedirected herself to peace. I wish you understood the hidden affectionin the in the message of Mike Keenor to you. Here are morelogics/pointers to you:

3. In life, we always find a higher person than ourselves. In everyfield a higher person than one is existing. See around you, you willfind this statement to be true. Even the President of USA can not say"I am the Highest". Always a better /higher person than you isexisting. Now where does this "highness" end. If there is sense ofhighness , then there must be an element which is "highest". God isthat element. God is the HIGHEST.

4. You always need some "shelter" to survive. In the childhood youneed shelter of parents, teacher, etc. Then of education, ability,wife, money, home, employers, what not. In old age, you need wife,children, stick, doctor, medicines, health etc Sujects change but notthe need for shelter.. If there is consistent need for shelter , thenthere must be an element existing of whose shelter is the ultimateshelter. Is not it Mr Sarphod. ( You should argue on such inprinciplepoints. Check up with you Begum Sahibaa.) ? If you are thirsty ,theremust be water existing on the planet. Now when you need always someshelter or other, then there must be an element which can bedescribedas " Highest Shelter available "! God is "PARAM ASHRAYA DATA" Giverof that shelter. If you take shelter of God, no other shelter will benecessary,

5. We always want to be perfect. There is no doubt on that. But thereis also no doubt regarding the fact that we err. In fact "to err ishuman" -this saying is prevalent on this planet from time immemorial.Now if there is a desire to become perfect then there must exist anelement which is most perfect. Did you ever hear that there was adifference of a fraction of a second even in timings of Sun rise andSun set? Is not everything moving to the perfection? Who can be moreperfect except God. God is the MOST PERFECT.

To be continued till you say "I am satisfied"

As regards your observation that "Nature" also creates/controls-answer is that whether you believe that nature has "knowledge"? Ifyes, then that nature is our God. In our religion ( I don't know yourreligion) SHAKTI is God also. But if according to you , the INERTNATURE has no knowledge, then you have to accept God. Can inertnaturetake care of so many souls, operate Law of Karma, provide food to somany creatures? If Yes- I don't mind calling that Nature to be God.After all it is a matter only of "terminology". If no then you mustaccept that IF THERE IS DESIRE / NEED IN YOU TO BE PERFECT OR TO TAKESHELTER OR TO SEEK HIGHNESS then there exists an element to fulfilthat desire. That element is called " GOD/ PARAMATMA" . Logical ?Doesit appeal to your logic Mr Sarphod? Check up with your Begum Sahibaaand come back. Your arguments shall exhaust, not our arguments- besure on this. After all you are on GT Site !

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B-------------------------------

Dear Sarphod:

Wonderful! I like your guts to put this question across!! I wasstartled to start with and even alarmed as I contemplated "thanksfor triggering the turbulence from which proceeds the peace asalways."

Son goes to father and asks, "Father, what is God?" Fatheranswered, "Whatever drives your life, whatever sustains your lifeand whatever absorbs your life is verily God my child. Think aboutIt!" The father was wise enough not to instruct what God is. The sonpromptly contemplates in what his father said and came back, "Father,fear drives all the lives. Fear sustains all the lives. Fear absorbsall the life. Therefore, fear should be the god." Fatherremarks, "Good job! Keep thinking." The son not knowing whether hisrevelation was conclusive or not continues to contemplate. Son comesback to father and declares, "Father, desire drives all the lives,desire sustains all the lives and desire absorbs all the lives.Therefore, the desire should be the god." Father remarks again, Goodjob! Keep thinking." The son does not feel the conclusiveappreciation regarding the god - is it fear or desire? He continuesto contemplate and realizes that, the happiness drives all thelives. Happiness sustains all the lives. And, happiness absorbs allthe lives. Therefore happiness should be the god.

Now he does not go back to his father as he has already felt thewisdom behind his father's remarks. God is not something that can betaught to, or preached to or transferred to anybody. It is thenotion within ... it is the imagination within ... it is thedeliberation within ... it is the understanding within ... it is theappreciation within ... IT IS THE PRESENCE WITHIN in its core. Theson, accepting the challenge from his father to use the body, sensesand mind blessed to him, continues to contemplate.

He has seen the driving force, sustenance strength and absorptionpower in the fear, in the desire as well as in the happiness. Hesees that the three divinities of creation, sustenance,andabsorption transcend the boundaries of his existential fears,desires and happiness altogether integrating the whole universe ofknowns as well as unknowns - manifested as well as unmanifested -mitigating the differences that were once prominent amongst thethree phases of life - fear, desire and happiness.

Then starts another dilemma - who is the god amongst these threedivinites that seem to determine what life is? Driving Force orSustenance Strength or Absorption Power? Again, he approaches hisfather, the wisdom established within to contemplate on the dilemma.

The driving force comes first to claim the unclaimed post of TheGod. On ruthless examination, the driving force starts wonderingaloud that it itself should have been driven by something else. Thenew driving force wonders the same and so on. The driving force digsup an infinite legacy of its own kind beneath lost in the oblivionof the past. It returns back in frustration not withstanding whatthe driving force could really be.

The absorption power jumps in next to claim the still unclaimed postof The God. Again, the wisdom starts the same gruelling scrutiny.The power under sharp vigilence starts whithering away to wonder ifit absorbs everything there should be something to absorb itself.The new absorbing power wonders the same way and so on. Theabsorption power piles up an infinite heirarchy of its own kindabove lost in the oblivion of the future. It returns back infrustration not withstanding what the absorption power could everbe.

The empty throne is still awaiting to be filled. The sustenancestrength walks to claim the post in confidence. The valiant wisdomdoes its job with no resistance subjecting the life sustenancepower in suspension of its examination. The sustencance strengthwhich provides strength to all the life around starts wondering whatis the source of its own strength and sustenance. The new source ofthe strength resounds the same wonder what could be the source ofstrength. The sustenance strength keeps jumping from on fold toanother all around the universe that is within its control to seekitself folding itself in infinitude lost in the vast presence. Itreturns back in frustration not withstanding what the sustenancestrength could ever be.

Seeing the crest-fallen champions of life not realizing their owntrue nature around, the throne of The God starts fading intosilence. The wisdom starts wondering in itself. Is it not thedriving force as well as the sustenance strength as well as theabsorption power all the time all around? Suddenly, the demarkationbetween the three divinities that was once so thick and opaquestarts giving away to reveal the force, strength and power ofcreation, sustenance and absorption in itself and hence in everything that is perceieved ever.

The realized wisdom gets back and declares. Never ever ignore yourfears. Never ever ignore your desires. Never ever ignore yourhappiness. Ever be with your fears, desires and happiness as youare. Then you see the unison amongst your fears, desires and joysand hence in all your emotions, relations and existence within aswell as around. Then you see all the boundaries separating yournotions dissolve in the very wisdom where you dwell upon. Being whatyou are in spite of your apparent variances of life naturallytranscends all the barriers built by your cognition acrosseverything to reveal THE ONE everywhere and everywhence. Then thevery post of God does not appear to be real anymore which seemed themost troublesome question to start with.

God remains evasive till you drift away from what you are in vainsearching whatever IT could be! Therefore, my dear friend, betterpause in your frenzy search and look around and look within … bewhat you are. Then God is everything … not just a notion ... notjust a faith ... not just a doubt ... but, everything ... EVERYTHINGWITH NO EXCEPTION. If you remain what you are, IT is all-inclusive.If you attempt to search for it, IT becomes all-exclusive. In otherwords, IT is EVERYTHING in your presence; and IT is NOTHING in yourperception.

Respects.

Naga Narayana--------------------------------Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!Let us address one aspect of Tabalchiji's issues with responses ofsadhakas received so far!To be able to see God, one needs to recognize God upon seeinganything, right? If one says I don't see God, one is looking for whatone "thinks" God is in whatever one is looking at. For God to be"that" it will be very very limiting to God, because what we think isso limited even if it is some grand image of God. That is notlogical, right?Now when Swamiji says Goenkaji and Poddarji had darshana of God, whatdoes it mean?It means the deep understanding of what God is and subsequentrealization that "my God, there is nothing else but only God IS inthe disguise of the Cosmos" that sees through that individual.The individual's vision has changed entirely, where he/she sawobjects of the world before, now he sees only Divinity in the sameforms. It is our experience that what we believe out there, we tendto see only that through our being closed minded. Similarly when weunderstand God, this "Understanding" opens up the very mind who seesGod everywhere, individual is merely a channel God is using.Other aspects of issues will see later....Namaskar............Pratap Bhatt

-------------------------Shree Hari-

Sarphodji,

Great! You are still questioning brilliant!I have read the responses from our brethren, great beauty full ofdivine love. But I will stick to the hared nosed roll,(look past itdear friend).If someone asked me to show her an oak tree, and I gave her an acorn,what would she say I wonder? Of course the blueprint for the wholetree is in the acorn, one also one wonders, did the first oak treehave an acorn or the first acorn have an oak tree?Question 6 if resolved is the platform upon which all the otherquestion can be answered it seems to me.I can only tell you how I came to be touched be The Divine, that wasby my search into paradoxes, like the universe, like the acorn.I once mentioned a man I met in unusual circumstance. It was about3amin a large air traffic control room, very few controllers in the roomat that time. I was waiting to get clearance to work on a console(todo annual technical checks). There across the room was thiscontroller, He had his headset on,(with a long lead), he wasperforming asanas, (within the restriction), "trying to stay awake?"Iasked, "no he boomed", we started to talk. We had 'Much' in common,wedeveloped a dialog from then on , it was he who suggested I readBhagavad Gita,(I humbly suggest you do also).He once said to me with his booming humorous voice, "Mike if peoplecould her us they would think we're 'Lunatics'.What we had in common at the root, was our hunger for the truth, andthe courage, 'to ride the tiger".We were an unlikely pair from a world view, he was a Sri Lankan, meanAnglo Celt, especially if one could here us talking, but we werebrothers of the spirit.There is much I could talk of, but I must bow to the respectedmoderator.

With Respect and Divine Love,

Mike Keenor-Mr Sarphod ! So you are a male as well as married ! Very good Jee !

It is a good habit to act in accordance with advice your Begum. Howdid she leave you alone? Do you have books of Swamiji RamsukhdasjiMaharaj at your home? Your “Begum†had those books according toyou.Did you read them? Or your Begum only reads them? By the way didyou ever think about or did you ever have a desire to smell “flowerof sky†? Why did you not think about flower of sky or desired tosmell it ? Reply. This is a question to you. Also reply if you alwaysbelieve only after “seeing†?

Let us know as to how you can get satisfied according to you?. Whatmethodology suits your mind.? How do you generally feel regardingthis world,mind, intellect, body etc etc ? How according to you suchabig world is operating ? Do you think there are some laws governingthis world? Keep also giving your observations , counter arguments onEACH AND EVERY response which is given to you. Otherwise how will weknow whether the cure has taken place? Understood? You can consultyour Begum also before replying to my queries. Always tell us whatyour Begum told you and what is your own observation. Why don’t youtell your Begum also to become member and start Satsanga? Will thatnot be better? What is her kind name, Jee?

Namaste Jee.

Jee JeeShashikalaDear Sadhakas, Namaste!Another aspect of issues raised by Tabalchiji can be answered basedonwhat sadhakas already have echoed in their responses.The most important thing is to know that God is not "something","somewhere" and "some times". It is at the core of our being, anintimate experience which is The Knowingness without anything known.In otherwords, God cannot be known as another limited object,nevertheless, is known as "knowingness" in us by virtue of justbeing.For example, if someone were to ask you, can you show me Love, Peace,Compassion, Beauty, Goodness etc "out there"? You cann't! They areexperiences within us that we attribute to things/situations etcoutside which may have triggered them. Some philosopher rightly said"From the beginning, not a thing is!" Please, please, see the truthofthis. We are connected to the world only through Being Conscious ofsomething or other which we conceptualize as subjectexperiencer(mind-body), and objects experienced, both thought asseparate. Such division is not experiential.Just as these experiences are not seen "out there", but are truelyhappening in our consciousness, God cannot be seen, as separate fromConsciousness.Sun, for example, is nothing but the experience of light and heat,conceptualized as "Sun" out there, for practical purpose. This isalsotrue for all apparant objects of the world.God or Consciousness or Atman, are also such conceptual words of themost intimate Wordless Experience! They are good pointers though!When people engage in services to help others who are victims ofdisasters, diseases, violence, wars, terrorism etc etc who motivatestheir actions? Unconditional Love and Goodness of the heart! Peoplewho help to preserve natural environment, forests, animals, etc etcare also inspired by the same Love and Goodness!Can we not call Unconditional Love and Goodness of the heart God?Are those who bring such disasters to "apparant others" also God, ifall is God?They are also, yes, but unfortunately "they" have not understood yetthat they are!In God's world, only God exists playing "others", so who does what towhom?Try doing evil acts after understanding deep within that all of us,nature included, together, not individually, are God! One cannot!

Namaskar...........Pratap Bhatt

-PRIOR POSITINGDear Sadhak,Excellent explanation has been given by sadhak Pratapji....Excellent!If the parents donot know GOD how can they teach the kids?Swamiji says if something is lying in darkness we can take a deepakwith us to see it but to see a deepak(lamp) we donot need anotherdeepak. Same way the objects of this whole worlds can beseen/experienced through the "SELF" but to know this SELF we donotneed anything from the world( mind/body/intellect etc.) Only SELFknows it SELF.1. Where is God I have never seen Him?He is not HE, He is "I". When we can see/know who am I we cansee/know who is God.Indeed, You alone know Yourself by Your own potencies, O origin ofall, Lord of all beings, God of gods, O Supreme Person, Lord of theuniverse! Ch10:152. Who has seen Him?All realized people have known HIM.Some claim that they have seenHIM too.Swami Vivekananda asked this question to everyone he met-Have youseen God ? All answers negative except Ramkrishna Paramhansa.He said-"Yes I have seen God as clearly as I am seeing you right now."Listening to this Narendra became his disciple.3. How is He?With a single fragment of Myself I pervade and support this entireuniverse.Ch10:424. If I dont know how do I accept?Then go ahead follow the path shown to us by Swamiji or any realizedsoul, and know Him first, then accept.5. God is a term coined by elders to put moral shackles over us sothat we may indulge in goodness.What's wrong with that ? Accept God ,be righteous and be Arjuna ordonot accept Him, be Duryodhana - choice is yours.6. There has to be some basis for his existence? What are the logicswhich point towards the existence of God? From where to pick thethread?Start with meditation and Gita. Follow the path shown by Him in Gita-Karma Yoga, Gyaan Yoga or Bhakti Yoga. Establish yr self in YOGA.....

No one can force any one to believe. Kids learn by imitation. Leadyr own life according to Dharma,and kids will pick it up.Beforegiving them tatva Gyaan(absolute knowledge),its better to sit withthem and watch Ramayana, Krishna, Mahabharata and let them learn bythe character of our Sagun Sakaar Bhagwaan(God with Forms). If theycan learn from Rama or Krishna, they will be on right path and willget their realization at their own speed.with lots of Love,a sadhikaSadhna Karigar

--------------------------------Jai Hanuman

Oye What a question Jee!!. As good as the name of thequestioner!! "Sarphod" in Hindi means skull breaker ! "Tablachi"means he who plays treble. Unique Jee !! Namaste Sarphodji !!Welcome Jee ! There is music everywhere ! Who kept such a classicname Jee ? Father? OK, pick the thread from father only.

How do I accept if I don't know? Accept just as you accepted someone to be your father without knowing anything about him. Don't sayplease- "that children now a days need more than belief to accept".That, I am afraid, is not as classic a statement as is even yourkind name. Fact is that children practice only belief and solidbelief. They are masters of belief - and teachers of entire humanityon this subject of belief. Poor adults need proof. What kind ofproof was solicited by you in accepting some one to be your fatheror some name to be mine or for that purpose by "the children of nowa days"- say son of Sarphod Tablachi, if any ??

Do you "know" as to who is your father and who is your mother? Whatproof or rationale you can give to support your acceptance of Mr Xas your father?

You asked "from where to pick the thread". I reply to you that youpick the thread from yourself and your Dear Father. Come On !

Reply now! Argue !!

Namaste Jee

Jee JeeShashikala-------------------------------Mr.Pratapji Bhatt has explained the existance of God beautifully.Itis very much in sync with Sri Sri Paramhansa Yogananda's explanationin his books-"Autobiography of a yogi" and "Man's eternal quest"which i have read. Also the story quoted by mahalaksmiji perfectlydescribes how to know God.He is all knowing and yet unknown.He isthe Devine Intelligence that governs all that is known to us.God isindescribebable.He can only be felt in the depths of a pure soul.Ami Chhowala

--------------------------------I still remain unsatisfied in this "divine" forum. How and whyParamatma can not be an individual ? Is there nothing in yourscriptures like Gita which says that a devotee can also "see" God ?My Begum Sahiba states that she read from a book of your SwamiRamsukhdasji that Jai Dayal Goenka and Hanuman Poddarhad "darshanas" of God. Was His statement right or your referenceof good Swami is right? Why do you say that God can not be known?How then the desire to know can be fulfilled? Whether I need aninstruction manual or not is not the focal point, in fact, to befair to me, answer to my questions in simple and convincing manneris focal point! None of the "sadhaks" are convincing so far. Iasked from where to pick the thread? The responses are unclear andincomplete.

Mr Mike ! Incomplete, was your answer. If you believe you were likeme in the past, then make me like you in the present. Is that not adivine task? Is that not the role of this forum? Logic must exist.Pointers must be there. Knowledge cant be beyond itself. What elsewe are doing at present except meeting?

Mr Vyas - When Your so called " Nature" made oceans, Sun Moon etcand when Nature is supreme then where is the question of God? Whycant Fire/ Ocean/etc are called God ? If yes, then how God isbeyond knowledge? How God can not be seen as stated by Mr PratapBhatt or by Vineet Sarvottam ?

"Sadhaks" - My Begum Sahibaa directed me to you people to satisfymy knowledge quest ! I expected better as I am hungry for answers.

Sarphod Tabalchi--------------------------------Such a question can only arise from those who consider gross body asreal self and not the outer sheath of immortal "real self" whichcontains the apriori knowledge.

They see God every day but do not recognise THEE. The Universal Godis Tri-Ani-Pada- three bodies in One i.e. gross, subtle and divine.Since the entire Brahamad is God, His gross body consists of "Sunand Moon His eyes, firmament his middle body and earth as His Feet"and His Head is in Heaven. Thus entire Brahmand is God. Most of thepeople who find gross body as real, want to imagine and visulaiseGod as a human being forgetting that human beings who live on thisearth are "Thy" tiny living cells. We have several billions livingcells in our gross body, can any living cell of our body tell who weare?

But those who find human soul as "real self" have no difficulty inknowing God. His divine body is the Omniscient Supreme Soul(Parmatma) and His subtle body "Mahadeva" is omnipotent SupremeSpirit prevalent in all animate and inanimate life/things. Hisspirit is found in Shuniya (cosmic void) of all kind of matterconsisting of atoms with unsuspected vitality. Because of His spiritprevalent in shuniya, matter is not inert.

Since Man is born in the image of God, human beings are also tri-ani-pada. Immortal soul resides in our divine body, spirit resides inour subtle body and gross instruments in our material body. Thosewho consider material gross body as the real self will always finddifficult to know formless and ineffable universal God.

Incidentally formeless and ineffable Universal God is Brahma- namederived from Brahmand and other gods in human form are Iswaras.Iswaras are not the gods of entire mankind.with regards,Prem Sabhlok

--------------------------------Dear sarphod,

God is in nature,he can only be felt.His power is dwellingeverywhere in the nature in the form of cosmic vibratioins .If wecan tune our mind with the same frequency by way of sadhana we canfeel the godliness of the nature.How a sperm can create a body withlife is the proof of the supernatural power of the god. So far weare only establishing the things which are existing, but we areunable to establish about the source of the existence.Our ultimate goal our of life is to reuntite ourselves with thenature from where we have come.Nothing extra to be thought aboutgod. Living close to the nature is living near god. But the sensesattached to our body always act against our realisationprocess.controling the senses is the biggest challenge of our life.Let us teach our children about righteous way of living ,thinknaturally and live naturally.

with regardsRamana kothuri

------------------The questions of Mr Sarphod Tabalchi are basic questions. I toodont believe that the Supreme Power would not leave any pointers orlogics of His existence. From where to pick the thread ? I dontagree with Mr Sarvottam that God can not be seen by His belovedones.. There has to be nothing which is beyond the powers ofSupreme. One principle came from Mike's narration and Mr Vyas'message that before "big bang" too something existed or that ifthere is creation then there must be a creator. But how that isexclusive prorogative of God only ? Creativity is universal symptomand authority. Spiders are also creators as per Mike Keenor. Pleaseelaborate with reference to Sarphod's questions. What about fiveelements? Are they creators? Are not these elements playing thetransformation game? I think more serious and direct discussions arewarranted on the subject, not just belief stricken answers. Firstthe logics/rationales have to be exhausted.

Luca Brasi----------------------------

Jai Kali Mata

What is meant by "No one knows about time!!!" Also, I am unclear asto how this is relevant to the questions asked? Is this idea abouttime, emanated out of teachings of Shraddheya Swamiji referred byhim? Kindly clarify !

Bandook Singh

--------------------------------PRIOR POSTING

RESUBMITTED WITH SOME CORRECTIONS

Shree HariRam Ram

You have asked -

1) Where is God, I have never seen Him?Answer: Paramatma is not an individual that you or any one cansimply see. Existence - IS-ness (sattaa maatre) has been given thename Paramatma. Otherwise there is no name for that Existence or allNames are only Paramatma's (Supreme Consciousness's) Names.

2) Who has seen Him?Answer: Paramatma has not been seen by anyone to date and in futuretoo Paramatma will not be ever seen. Shraddhey Swamiji has statedthat Paramatma can be believed, not known, nor seen. Beyond thiswhatever anyone says, is questionable.

3) How is He?Answer: How, where, when, what, why, such questions regardingParmatma are pointless. That which cannot be known, it cannot bedescribed at all.

4) What are you able to know "Time" (samay). This question has beenasked regarding time (whose beginning and end is unknown to us). Itis not a question about the watch or the interval. It is not onlyyou, but no one understands anything about "time". They can saynothing about time. Then why do you believe in time? Similarlybelieve and accept Paramatma, it will be nothing but gain.

5) This same work is also performed by men through establishment oflaws. Just as all do not believe in the law, similarly, everyonecontinues to speak and share for correcting one's foolishness, andaccording to one's own convenience and conformance giving thattattva a "form". You too can speak about the same as well.

6) 'Existence' itself is 'Paramaatmaa'. Where can any supportivearguments and evidence exist to establish the existenceof 'Existence' (named Paramaatmaa)? Then where is one to get thesupport of this essential elemental belief 'ASTITTVA'? Reasoning-deliberation-discussion (tark), proof-evidence (pramaan) can be ofthat thing which we know. But Paramatma is not known and cannot everbe known, then this reasoning and seeking evidence is not inconformance to that reasoning.

7) Do you want Paramatma? or do you want an instruction manual oran aphorism (sutra) to grab hold of Paramatma? Don't get caught upin the vicious cycle of trying to find an instruction manual.Leaving the search, become engaged in "Chup Saadhan" (EffortlessAwareness, Discipline of Silence). All quest, and inquiry will bequietened, will become still.

Please kindly forgive any limitations in the expression / wordsused.

Vineet Sarvottam--------------------------

Hari Om

How to know what is beyond knowledge - is the moot question.

Logic/Rationale !! Proof !!! Sample !! Consider the following:

1 .Whatever we are able to see on this earth there is always acreator /manufacturer - be it an allpin, pen, table, house, machine,house, bed, watch, pen, paper, cloth or aircraft. Anything visible.Then there should be creator of oceans, fire, air, mountains, earth,Sun. Moon, stars also !

God is the creator of all. - CREATOR

2. Whatever thing which moves , be it car, aircraft, bicycle,machine, computer, - there is always a controller thereof. Earthalso moves. Sun/Moon also move. Oceans remain in their limits. Sunrises and sets perfectly without fail. There must be a controller ofthem also!

God is the controller of all- CONTROLLER

Q BUT A HUMAN BEING ALSO CREATES ! WHAT IS SO IMPORTANT ABOUT IT ?

Ans A human being cannot "create" anything! It is only "nature"which creates! You can only change the shape thereof. You can covertgold into ornaments or iron into sword or utensil, but you can'tcreate gold or iron ! Only nature provides that. You can mix two ormore elements, formulate, change shape only. You can create . Youcan "discover" only.

To be continued.

Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B-------------------------Kindly read bertrand russelAranha Roy

---------------------------Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!Let us continue further on the subject and build on what sadhakashave said.Please, it may sound too intellectual, but it is not! It may humbleus!Consider this: If we need to know/study any object, the object hasto exist inthe first place.Even if we cannot know the object, we always know it exists. Thisknowing of anexistence is prior to the knowledge of its nature, attributes,function etc.The Universe is a collection of objects, and can be said to be oneExistencefundamentally. Individual objects within it are individualexistences localizedin space and time over which they exist, and change to other forms,continuingthe existences.When we say Universe we mean the Existence only. Even the wordUniverse pointsto the Existence first. How do we know such Existence itself? Onlyby beingaware/cognizant of it, no other way. So the Existence is awarenessof Existence.To see what is prior to such Existence, there has to be Awareness toknowwhether or not such Existence IS. Thus Awareness as Existence has tobebeginningless! What is after the Existence, non-existence? no,because to sayit, there has to be Awareness of non-existence. If there isAwareness ofnon-existence, IS-ness is established. Thus that which IS, theExistence(withoutdivision into many objects), is eternally free of time and spacecontaining allobjects(names/forms) in time and space by creating mind and endowingit withthis ability in terms of thoughts/feelings. Gita in 2:16 says thereal neverceases to be.Such Awareful Existence has to be most Powerful, Intelligent,Beautiful, full ofLove and Blissful which is our experience. Can we not call this God?God means Such Intelligence as seen through those who serve, and loveunconditionally, those who fight for Dharma, the righteousness, andthose whopreach God's message!Evil actions come out from not realizing the Truth of EternalOneness, GOD!Namaskar.............Pratap Bhatt

 

----------------------------My answer is simply to a question which has been indirectlyasked: "Why can't I see Him?"Because He is the Seer. You are what you are looking for. It issubjective awareness.The problem lies with the word 'God' because we then suppose adistinct being like a tribal deity. No, it is Awareness, Supernal-consciousness. This is the Vedantic way. Find out who you reallyare, not how others see you, but from your subjective perspective,and you'll find what you're looking for.Rishi Handa

----------------------------Wonderful expression by Pratap (Bhatt) Bhai

Further, a simple but serious exercise could help in understandingthis.....Sarphodji, ask yourself " who is asking these questions?""Who wants to know God?" ....and wait for the answer....see what comes from deep inside.....

but you have to have patience.....and keep asking/repeating thequestions....In fact when you come across any such question, ask yourselfwho is this who wants to know this, who is asking the question?....

and wait for the answers and experience that follows.......Best wishesSushil Jain

--------------------------------I am a believer of God. Like one person said in the e-mail below, Iwent through that 'show me God to believe' stage when I was around22 years - 26 years. I was God lover before and again lover now. Ido not really know and I do not think with my limited ablity I canever know. At the same time I am not blind follower too. I am opento all these 6 questions coming from a logical person because I hadthem before too and have them now too. Before - with doubt, now -with wonder and amazement.

Knowing God is a long journey. I am on the journey, I beleive I amgradually understanding the divine concept. I am understanding themthrough others, specially our ancestors, Indian scriptures. Thereare great concepts, ideas and explanations, there are trash alsoamongst them. I am amazed at the power of those ideas andexplanations. They attempted volumes and spent 100s of years to findGod and explain the divinity. Can I really understand all this in mylife? I doubt, which is why its a journey for me. Can I see God? Itdepends on. I feel divinity in some great people, in their ideas forhumanity - around me.

OK, when somebody asks the question 'show me God', what they areasking us is 'show me Jesus, Show me Shiva or show me Vishnu'. Idoubt if any one has seen God in these forms. Unless the divinepower appears so for any. As for God in its full form - Can Iimagine the distance between the Earth and the nearest star (AlphaCentauri - about 4 light years away). I cannot imagine thatdistance - however logically I think. Can I see God then - which isfull of this universe? Impossible to imagine. Then how can I seeGod, unless God willingly appears to me.

My dear friend, answers to those 6 questions need volumes ofexplanation or simply experiecing of the divine power - depending onwhere you stand on the quest for God. Its a journey, so pleasediscuss with people who have done the research (of your 6 questionsbefore) and experience the facts yourself. You still go through theoscillations of belief and disbeliefs, but if your quest is sincereyou will start seeing light at the end of tunnel.

The above does not give straight answers to even one of yourquestions. So thanks for your time, if at all you read through thisuntil now.

Venu Gopal--------------------------------

PRIOR POSTINGI will come at these questions in a hard nosed manner, maybe I amblessed as I too waved aside religions when younger but traveled fullcircle to The Beloved, who I dearly love with my absolute being.

Question 6: There has to be some basis for his existence? What arethe logics which point towards the existence of God? From where topick the thread?O.K. I would ask the skeptical young, (I will call him S. ), tell meS. how did this Godless Universe begin? He may be a brilliantphysicist, good chance though, regardless S will start to talk aboutthe 'big bang', the question would then be, o.k. S. was theresubstance, was there energy, and was there time, before the 'Event'?I would ask S. also when this energy of the bang runs out whatthen?, I would press the point home that the Great IndiansTraditions had a good explanation for all this many millenniumbefore the present time, and is probably a good guide for thescientists. Oh! I would ask my young friend S. where did the laws ofphysics come from? Apparently they are unique, the laws had to bespot on for there to be an existance, that is what the physicistseem to be saying.

I would ask S. one other thing, how is it possible for a spider tobuild the perfect web according to its kind, without actually beingtaught.

I would say to S., think about it, think about it, be tenacious, bemercilessness, and be brave, let your desire for the truth take youwhere it will, just hang in there! S. my friend I was once like you,maybe one day we can really talk.

With Respect and Divine Love,

Mike Keenor------------------------

Dear Sadak,

1. Where is God I have never seen Him?EXAMPLES Most children knowwater is H2O (Hydrogen 2 parts and Oxygen 1 part) ask them them toshow hydrogen and oxygen showing water. Next show them Yogurt (Curd)and ask them to show milk. Bigger children ask them to show planets.Then tell then from Sanskrit slokas-- "God is apprameyam" that whichcannot be seen or known by senses as in case of above examples, asGod can be only known by Gyana (knowledge)2. Who has seen Him? Like in case of scientist tell as per aboveexamples, so does Saints tell. Only a saint (Guru) can show God asshown to Vivekananda by Swamy Ramakrishna3. How is He? Slokas say: Aroopamai, Aksharamai. Roopam, Akandamai,Viratroopamai Etc. No definite shape as HE appears in the form thatthe devotee wants. HE is in sounds - Om, HE is like Sri Krishna/SriRama Etc, Omnipresent (That cosmic energy filled in everything), HEis in all shapes and forms.4. If I dont know how do I accept? Contemplate. If you accept thatthere is Galaxies then contemplate what energy is performing wholeuniverse, like in the case of any toy needs battery, car need petrolor fuel, computer need electricity etc. Still do not want to accept-Leave it.

Jai Sri Krishna

baiya sathyanarayan-----------------------------

All questions arise out of answers. When one asks a questioneither he needs a confirmation of the answer which he already hasor he is answering his own question. When somebody is asking aquestion relating to God, first he has to explain what is in hismind when he says or thinks of GOD.

Einstein said that the world is an optical illusion. We think andfeel that we are separated from the rest. This is an opticalillusion. We have no direct contact with the outside world. Allthe sensorial data has to filter through our optical nerve and ourmind (delusion). So we have no idea of what is exactly out there.When one realizes this he comes closer to God or some superiorknowledge.

To realise that we are the debris of God is the supremerealisation.

The most mysterious thing holds the most important key. Death isthe most mysterious thing. Death holds the most important key.

When death happens. The soul/consciousness releases out of thecage (body � which is always subjected to three dimensional viewandlinear concept of time and space), one will realize or merge withGod

H. Subair

------------------------------dear pratapji,thank u for giving us such wonderful knowledge.personlike you are really god's gift to us.bhargav mehta------------------------PRIOR POSTINGRe: Does God (Paramatma) Exist? Where is the Proof? Whatis the logic ?

Through that supreme devotion he comes to know Me in reality, whatand how great I am; and thereby knowing Me in essence he forthwithenters into My being.

Gita - Chapter 18 Sloka : 55

Sundara Raghavendran---------------------------

Deaar Sadhakas, Namaste!When someone says "where is God? I have never seen Him", that personhas to know what God is that he expect to see, otherwise he cannotask the question. The question comes from the implicit assumptionthat God is some imagination, ideas, knowledge, belief, etc. in themind and what I see out there is definitely not "God".So it is better to rephrase the question back to What God is first.When that is understood, all questions by Tabalchiji will getanswered.Consider the following dialogue:Q: Do you have a doubt about your own existence?A: No, I know I exist beyond a shadow of doubt. It is so obvious tome!Q: How do you know you exist?A: I don't know HOW, but I am sure I DO!Q: Do you need any help of another person, scripture, or somelogical explanation to confirm you do exist?A: Definitely not, even if they say I don't exist, I know I do,because it is experiential within me now. I don't even need anysense organs-mind-intellect to tell me I exist!

So, it is self-evident existence, of "beingness" we all feel withinus, and by which we know what is knowable in this world as objectsof knowledge. This experience of Being Conscious is always with us,never are we away from IT, not even in our sleep when body-mind-world are all gone no one knows where! But I am always!I just have to find out that ultimately this "I" is Impersonal andis of the nature of Existence-Consciousness which we call God!Personal God of Bhakta appears in this Impersonal!Based on this, I can conclude that God is not a particular objectamong many objects we know through sense organs, mind and intellect.It is THE UNIQUE and objectless EXPERIENCE!It is like our eyes who cannot see themselves and yet know theirexistence beyond any shadow of doubt because SEEING takes placeautomatically by just Being.Once it is grasped, it can lead to God Realization!Namaskar...

Pratap Bhatt

-------------------------------

My dear Sarphod,There is a very beautiful story from ancient times that I haveheard from my guru. Once, a king called his minister and said, "Iwant you to answer two questions.....otherwise your position will beat stake.....first, can you show me God. Secondly, what is Goddoing right now?The minister was in anxiety. He went home, began searchingthrough various scriptures....wondering if he would have a job thenext day. His small son approached him, and noticing his father'sperplexity, inquired, "What trou

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Shree Hari Ram Ram

Dear Sadhaks, NAMASKAR! In light of recent feedback... lengthy messages will be shortened at the discretion of the moderators. We appreciate your attention to this. Thank you, From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram

-------------------------

My question is that how to prove that there exists a super naturalpower called "God" ? At least how to explain that. How to correlateHis existence with the character of the world? Children now a daysneed more than belief to accept. Can there be any way vide which wecan establish that God exists. If some body says say :1. Where is God I have never seen Him?2. Who has seen Him?3. How is He?4. If I dont know how do I accept?5. God is a term coined by elders to put moral shackles over us sothat we may indulge in goodness.6. There has to be some basis for his existence? What are the logicswhich point towards the existence of God? From where to pick thethread?

Sarphod Tabalchi

NEW POSTING

WHO IS ASKING THIS QUESTION?

WHO WANTS TO KNOW?

DARE AND HAVE COURAGE TO KNOW HIM FIRST.........

ANSWER TO ALL QUESTIONS LIES THERE.....

 

ENCOUNTER THE "SELF"....

KNOWING SELF LEADS TO KNOWING GOD.....

IT IS SIMPLE.....

 

Sushil Jain

---

-Shree Hari-When I saw this post re-emerge, originally from Sarphod Tabalchi, and he hadeveryone spinning on the spot. I said to myself, No way, I have been there! ButI decided, 'That hell has frozen over'.Talking of Hell, that advocate of the Devil has re-emerged in the guise of P Srivastava.Straight away I have noticed something:The Patriarch Jacob wrestled with GOD all night long, God then finished the fight by putting Jacobs hip out of joint, could have obliterated Jacob, but just I minor wound. Interesting to note that Jacob did not realize who he was wrestling with. Now this is allegorical, but universal at that level. Some Sadhaks seem angry, I do not know why because you see, these beloved souls, are witnessing you wrestling with Bhagwan. And if you keep wrestling, and don't run away, HE, 'The Beloved', will break your heart and tear you down, with Love,and Grace.How do I know this? You work it out.Coming to science and logic, there is a problem, regardless of scientific principles, modern science is Christocentric, (I think I have just invented a word), there is an older ancient knowledge, one simple example is the solar system, understood in India approximately 1500 years (at least), before being understood in the West, and it was declared a heresy. Oh! and re-incarnationdeclared a heresy 500 years after Christ within Christendom, now the scientist are talking about cellular memory, (they will get there just give them time). These are early times with this debate with you, keep debating, and with Divine Grace, you will understand the things that science can't, just think how wonderful that would be!With Respect and Divine Love,Mike (Keenor).------------

Dear Sadak Sarphod Tabalchi & other sadaks,This is what you said,"" God is a term coined by elders to put moral shackles over us so that we may indulge in goodness."" Presume you are correct, then indulge goodness total pure goodness. God surely illuminates HIMSELF to you, like in the case of Vivekanadha who asked similar questions to Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa. Do you know one truth that you will surely know God existence faster than me. Your craving is higher to see God. Where as I think I know about God and making myself fool by giving all descriptions and sastras. Sinners are potential saints- the proverb. Great men like Tukaram, Chaitaniya Maha Prabu when someone pointed mistake (Not really mistake) they readily accepted and tried to change for no fault of their`s. They are Sub Zero in Ego. Example: When Kasi Pandit critisied Tukaram Abang for no sanskrit value in it and ordered to be thrown in river colse by, Turaram accepted and threw the scripts in river. But to surprise of all, the total abang came in opposite direction running water to Tukaram. Pandit body statred itchy and he fell at feet of Tukaram. Sadaks dont change even to pronounce God name as requested, but call it Bavana is important. For sake of God I should change my habbit and try when some one tells me something. By doing so I loose Ego and get Bagavan Sankalp. Zero ego. Get that Egoless God comes to you.No man on earth can describe GOD says Chandokiya Upnashid and Vedas. Vedas may say how water came, fire came etc but it says one can establish in GOD only by Gyana.What efforts did Ajaamilan do? Srimath Bagavatyh clearly says he called Narayana his son. Earnestly studing further it says, Ajamilan was given Gyana first by Vishnu Doots. Anjamilan hearing Vishnu Doots speach given to Yama Doots, his heart felt tears and utmost repentance by thinking that for calling his son Narayana if this grace could flow, what it would be if Narayana was thought during life.God benovolence making you to ask those questions. Present days there people asking so many things and matters except GOD.Jai Sri KrishnaB.Sathyanarayan

-------------------------------

ALL WORDS REMAIN WORDS, my friends , till the One word blossoms in the self to merge into the Silence that is God ............. and then ................ all is known ............

 

and this knowing has to become your knowing ................ if you today feel separate from the Self that you are ..............

 

you are the ultimate proof of your own being ............ whatever you feel you are !

 

even though the aspirant , the means, and the sadhya are ONE , not-two ! Have always been so. Will ever be so ; even so........................

the blossomimg of the One Word , the silent sound of Aum, the unheard melody ever resounding in the self, is the Gift recieved from the Self , when the self is willing to die to the self ................

 

if the aspirant wants the direct experience of the Self ..................... meditation is the way. ....................

 

meditate, meditate, meditate ............. watch the ' doings' of the self in you .............. be a witness, be a watcher , and wait ................... just wait .................. doing nothing .............

 

just watch, with the focus of your watching, " who in me is the watcher ? who am I ?" this is the shortest way ........... such is the experience and advice of all the knowers of Silence .............. including Ramanna Maharishi. Swami Ramsukhdas jee means the same , when he speaks of ' self-remembrance'...................... pleaae meditate on Swami Ramsukhdasjee's words..............

 

BUT ........................ there is a catch .............. this method of the Direct Inquiry is not for all...........

 

Karamyoga is the Way for the majority to move into higher steps of purification of the self ..........

 

each person has to strive to ' understand' what he is at the present moment now. A live Guru is the greatest help, if you cannot yourself become aware of what you are NOW , were you stand on this Path of spiritual seeking, this moment .

 

it is narinder, who is presently deluded... it is nari, who is presently feeling the separation from the Self...... it is he , who has to become free from the delusion that the self is separate from the Self ............. and Krishna , through His song Celestial, the Bhagvada Geetha, beckons him with the advice " Abandoning all the Dharmas ( of body, mind and intellect), take refuge in me alone ........"

 

and goes on to say that to those, who will so do, the reward will be ' freedom from action' ( Sh 11 of Ch3)

 

AUM

 

narinder bhandari

----------------

PRIOR POSTING

Namaste.

The only way to 'prove that there exists a super natural power called "God" ' is to find God, in yourself, and everywhere. Others may explain and provide as much information as you wish but in the final analysis, you have to discover God, yourself. You must bear in mind that you cannot "challenge" God to prove He exists; this is human thought and action, on the human plane. I suggest you start with the Nasadiya - The Creation Hymn, Rig Veda Book 10 Hymn 129: 1. THEN was not non-existent nor existent: there was no realm of air, no sky beyond it. What covered in, and where? and what gave shelter? Was water there, unfathomed depth of water?2 Death was not then, nor was there aught immortal: no sign was there, the day's and night's divider.That One Thing, breathless, breathed by its own nature: apart from it was nothing whatsoever.3 Darkness there was: at first concealed in darkness this All was indiscriminated chaos.All that existed then was void and form less: by the great power of Warmth was born that Unit.4 Thereafter rose Desire in the beginning, Desire, the primal seed and germ of Spirit.Sages who searched with their heart's thought discovered the existent's kinship in the non-existent.5 Transversely was their severing line extended: what was above it then, and what below it?There were begetters, there were mighty forces, free action here and energy up yonder6 Who verily knows and who can here declare it, whence it was born and whence comes this creation?The Gods are later than this world's production. Who knows then whence it first came into being?7 He, the first origin of this creation, whether he formed it all or did not form it,Whose eye controls this world in highest heaven, he verily knows it, or perhaps he knows not. Read it several times, sing it loud, ponder the significance and meaning of it, study it, and then ask questions about the Creation of this world, of human life, and the purpose of your existence. Then, go to Geeta for answers. Rest assured you will find God and all answers you seek. Ram Ram Deosaran Bisnath-----------

Narain ! Narain !! Issue raised by Shrivastavaji and Sharmaji is : If there is God prevalent in the world, why there is sorrow existing ? God is known to be the kindest, all knowing and all powerful. If He knows about our sorrows but is not powerful then one can understand. He will also cry with us, as we do when some one dies.But He is all powerful. If He is powerful but is ignorant, one can understand. He can say I did not know ? But He is all knowing. If He is all powerful and all knowing but if He is cruel, then one can understand. Damn care. Each is suffering due to one's own karmas. Why He should bother? But He is the kindest. He cant say to a 5 year old child, you are suffering because of your past deeds. Even we as normal fathers dont refuse to give milk to the child even if by carelessness he has split earlier given glass of milk. This is the issue raised by these two gentlemen. Narain ! Narain !! Error clearly visible in their statements is total lack of normal intellect and sheer arrogance. They instead of going for reasons and instead of asking soberly a question have sat on the chair of judge and started giving verdicts. They have presumed themselves to be the only wise person, while the fact is that every human on this earth has some speciality which is unique to him. They have concluded certain things without any application of Viveka or even mind or intellect. They are , thus, neither here nor there. They have faith, as does every human being, but they dont know how and where to apply the same. They are standing in dark and feel that there is no light possible. Their views therefore are full of stupidity and lack of knowledge. Without going into that stupidity, we should in fact address the issues raised by them. WHY SORROW EXISTS, IF GOD IS THERE ? Either sorrow is not there or God is not there. If sorrow is there, then either God is not therte.. If still God is there, then He is not all knowing, all powerful and the kindest. Which status is true? Let us deliberate. Sadhak Sarphod Tabalchi ! Like my name, your name is also getting immortal. Join us now, you too ! Narain ! Narain !!Naarad N Maharishi ----Hari OmDear Mr Srivastava

Why are you thinking about God? Can you think for an element which does not exist? Are you not fully independent in acceptance? What made you express your self before this forum? What made you read these messages? What made you still recollect and narrate the book which you threw? You threw the book, but your mind did not ! Why?

Catherine has faith. Do you not have faith? If you don't have, then prove your own existence ! Tell me can you live without faith in you. Can you justify existence of faith in you? You have faith in science, and some western writers you named, isn't it? She has faith in God! How you can say your faith is correctly placed, and her faith is not? What gives anyone the right to call another.... fool, or vulgar or bacteria or idiot ! Think about this..... !!!

Prove to me by science ( as developed till date) as to who is your father ! Can you prove it, based on your personal knowledge? You are talking about Eternal Father , I am talking about of this birth father. Bring all of your knowledge, science, intellect, mind, expertise, capacity, imagination to prove to me as to who is your this father. Prove to me as to who are you.... Body, nose, ear, heart what are you ? Now prove !

Now that you are in the forum... don't run away - let us see how how long these words last .... trash, misplaced, illogical, arising out of darkness and ignorance, blind, irrational, literate fools or lack of belief in God, I say that you believe that there is God. Now prove your disbelief ! Don't run away ! Are you ready for it? Then prove to us as to who is your this birth father , by your personal knowledge !! There should not be any "belief" on anything because your "science" does not recognise belief , it goes on the basis of proof. You should tell us how Mr So and So is your father based on a proof acquired out of your knowledge and not out of any belief on anything. Science goes on facts and acquired knowledge not on any belief. And it is a fact that you exist. How is that "you" who exists? We shall talk about your Eternal Father- Paramatma ( Your father's father's father's ...... Father of Adam and Eve) afterwards. First prove your this birth father. Bring Darwin's theories also in deliberations if that help you in correctly answering to us. Now come on! Let us have healthy deliberations.

Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B -------Jai Hanuman

Very good, Jee, Very good ! There is one idiom in Hindi:

Maa ka pata hi nahin hai, mausi ki chinta karate hain !

Whereabouts of mother is not known, and people are worrying about mausi (mother's sister) !

Raam ! Raam!! Raam!!! There is another idiom in Hindi :

Andhe ko andhere main, badi door ki soojhi !

A Blind person standing in darkness has claimed himself to be a visionary.

Mr Shrivastava ! The best thing which has happened to you is that you have somehow reached to this forum. You were reading the messages , isn't it? Why? Now you should read more intensely and surely Daddy's grace will work like magic ! We have Sister Catherine as examples showing us how to live - devoid of hatred, negativity, frustration, brooding, fretting, ignorance, stupidity, pride. She is sober, intelligent, wise,organised, sharp,knowledgeable, determined, cool and composed. It is obvious to any one who reads her statement. What has made her so? Where lies the difference? Faith in God ! What else the difference can be? Think, if you can.Namaste Jee, Jee JeeShashikala

----

Dear Friend,

I have been studying (not just reading) the Gita for 20 years now. There is some profound wisdom contained within it, and according to me a whole lot of redundant verses as well. Per what I understand, in the 11th century AD, with the advent of the Vaishnav cult, a lot of verses apotheosizing Krishna were added to the Gita. Moreover, many have commented that there would not have been sufficient time just before commencement of battle to discourse 700 verses.

Even a child can guess, none of the Deities could move even a finger in their defence over the centuries, many invaders and conquerors from central Asia plundered and demolished Hindu temples... This should convince one of the non-existence of Hindu Deities, and the irrationality behind this myth. And regarding your comment on DNA testing - haven't you heard of so many cases where DNA testing has showed people that they were wrongly believing someone else to be their father? And if someone wants proof of their parentage, don't they resort to DNA testing? Moreover, we are talking about a father that exists in flesh and blood – not an imaginary invention. You said - "It is impossible to know, conquer, realize, attain the sentient essence (GOD, Consciousness, Presence) through insentient means," either confused the meaning of the word sentient, or have invented your own meaning to it. And it is very obvious thatyou think nothing of blind faith, or of remedying it.

Little knowledge is dangerous. You write about Schopenhauer being influenced by the Gita. He was influenced by Eastern philosophy, but with the essence, and not with the rituals and blind faith contained therein, Per my understanding of his writings he believed real deductions themselves are by no means to be found in Hindu Scriptures. He regarded the world as a prison, as a place of suffering, a theme central to Hindu Scriptures. He had the sense to take matters to their logical conclusion. Based on what I understand of his writings he indicated that if the world is a place of suffering, and freeing the soul is the ultimate goal, then it is highly immoral to give birth to a child and trap a soul in a mortal prison. - Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860), On the Sufferings of the World (1851). Sadly, most of the people who read our Scriptures lack the insight of people like Schopenhauer to understand simple truths. My understanding is that Schopenhauer detested Religion, the concept of God, and for this very reason described the masses as the "natural and universal league of the stupid".

(other paragraphs excluded by moderators due to lack of relevance to the TOPIC and length).

P Srivastava

Shree Hari Ram Ram

Srivastavaji, Namaskar ! Our question is not about others... Have you personally done DNA testing of your father or are you just believing that the person you call father is your father? If you have not done DNA testing ,,, then how are you much different? Also, kindly share your explanation of "sentient" Here is the quote - "In the whole world there is no study, except that of the originals, so beneficial and so elevating as that of the Oupnekhat. It is the most rewarding and elevating reading possible: it has been the comfort of my life and it will be the one of my death." Arthur Schopenhauer (said about the Upanishads). Ram Ram

 

 

 

PRIOR POSTING

Chapter ten of Bhagavata Gita explains every aspects of Almighty GodNo more explanations required Thanks truly yours S S Bhatt----

" Ahankaram balam darpam, kamam krodham parigraham,Vimucya nirmamah santo, brahma bhuyaya kalpate" ( gita 18, 53). Which means " one who is deyached , free from false ego, false strength, pride, ownership and one who is always peaceful, such a person is eligible for brahma swarupam."

When one is free from false ego and becomes non attached to material things, then that one reached " brahma bhuta stage".

A pure devotee goes still further and becomed engaged in devotional service. Pure devotional service is the key to attain the lord.

There are examples to prove God's presence. Sant tukaram went back to lord's kingdom on garuda vahana', sent by pandu ranga. Composer singer annamacharya saw lord venkateswara.

Hare krishna. Prasad iragavarapu m.d

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Sutra 1

Parambrahma (Spirit or God) is everlasting, complete, without beginning or end.It is one, indivisible Being.

The Eternal Father, God, Swami Prarmbrahma, is the only Real Substance, Sat, andis all in all in the universe.

Why God is not comprenhensible;Man possesses eternal faith and believes intuitively in the existence of aSubstance, of which the objects of sense - sound, touch, sight, taste and smell,the component parts of theis visible world - are but properties. As manidentifies himself with his material body, composed of the aforesaid properties,he is able to comprhend by these impercect organs these properties only, and notthe Substance to which these properties belong. The Eternal Father, God, theonly Substance in the Universe, is therefore not comprehensible by man of thismaterial world, unless he becomes divine by lifting his self above this creationof Darkness or Maya. See Hebrews 11:1 and John 8:28.

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things notsee."

"Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the son of man (human ego),then shall ye know that, I am he."

Sutra 2

In it (Parambrahma) is the origin of all kowledge and love, the root of allpower and joy.

Prakriti or Nature of God;The Almighty Force, Shakti, or in other words the Eternal Joy, Ananda, whichproduces the world; and the Omniscient Feeling, Chit, which makes this worldconscious, demonstrate the Nature, Prakriti, of God the Father.

How God is comprehended.

As man is the likness of God, directing his attention inward he can comprehendwithin him the said Force and Feeling, the sole properties of his Self - theForce Almighty as his will, Vasana, with enjoyment, Bhoga; and the FeelingOmniscient as his Consciousness, Chetana, that enjoys, Bhokta. See Genesis 1:27.

"In this way God created man in his own image, in the image of God created hehim; male and female created he them."

So says Swami Sri Yukteswarji in his book, "The Holy Science".

Haley Haynes

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Sarphod Tabalchi, you have raised some very pertinent questions, which clearly do away with the concept of an anthropomorphic just and merciful Father – one is reminded of the Epicurean Riddle:

"Either God wants to abolish evil, and cannot; Or He can, but does not want to.If He wants to, but cannot, He is impotent. If He can, but does not want to, He is wicked.If God can abolish evil, and God really wants to do it, why is there evil in the world?"

The irrational, the tissue of whose brain is of a coarse quality, will try to offer some very stupid explanations to this riddle, leaning on the spurious law of Karma.

I am shocked to see educated people attach more weight to blind faith and vulgar superstition than to facts which lie in hand – this is something Charles Darwin had bemoaned as well. Raja Ram Mohan Roy had hoped that Western education wouldrid Indians of blind faith: he was wrong. Western education has succeeded only in creating a profusion of literate fools.

I was reading some Indian Scripture in which there was mention of "the God who brings rain and the demons that withhold it" – this disgusted me so much that I just threw that useless book away. Science has done half the job to cure peoplefrom the disease of God and Religion; the other half can be achieved by reading Western Philosophy. I would definitely attach more weight to men of science and logic than to the buffoons who write about Gods and demons bringing rain. Ifbitten by a venomous snake, where would you rush to – a modern hospital stocking the anti-venom, or some dim-witted idiot who would parrot out Scriptures in an attempt to cure you? Until modern science developed snake anti venom, and manyother cures, our Scriptures and obsolete medical techniques were quite ineffective and useless when it came to most medical problems.

"God is Everything. God is a manifestation of all that is around us(trees, mountains, birds, animals, mankind)" – this quote by Catherine Anderson just proves Epicurus right – it means God is harmful bacteria, virus, and all the evil that pervades the world.

If anyone really wishes to enlighten themselves, I suggest you stop reading trash and go for books by great men like David Hume and Arthur Schopenhauer.

P Srivastava---

Shree Hari Ram Ram

Srivastavaji, Namaskaar! Please share with us if you have read the Bhagavad Gita. (By read, we mean - not just superficially scanning...but questioning, inquirying and seeing if the answers are available in it).....

Simply speaking.... if we have not done DNA testing of our father... we are living in blind faith.... As we recollect - ARthur Schopenhauer was deeply influenced by the Bhagavad Gita, he has made comments to that effect.

Education feeds the mind/intellect which are insentient. It is impossible to know, conquer, realize, attain the sentient essence (GOD, Consciousness, Presence) through insentient means. Ram Ram

------

God is an Anglo-Saxon noun and refers to a Male (as opposed to Goddess), Creator Being. There is no provable God (or Goddess). As Hindus, what do we know? Tat Tvam Asi. This Mahavakya means that we are No-Thing (Tat). This Tat is also referred to as ParaBrahman and sometimes Nirguna Brahman. What can be said about Tat? Nothing. "Mouna vakya ParaBrahaman tattwam." Tat may also be defined as Om Tat Sat(chidananda). This Saguna Brahaman experience is provable. Energy/Light/Bliss is our Atmana. This we know. God we do not know. As Hindus, we have our Ishta Devatas and this good and this is personal. One does not (and cannot) have to prove the existence of our Ishta Devata. Thus, Hinduism is a monistic polymorphism and not the lesser understanding of Monotheism. Swami Param------Shree Hari Ram RamSwami Paramji, Kindly explain what exactly is meant by monistic polymorphism. Ram Ram ------ is obvious that there is NO GOD. The characters attributed to GOD areOmnipresentOmnipotentMercifulAll Knowing.There is so much misery and injustice in this world that either God does not know it in which case he is not all knowing, or he knows and does not do any thing about it. In that case he is not merciful. Or he can not do any thing then he is not omnipotent.I take a recent case of a 10 years old girl being raped by her father. What was God doing?It has been said that the girl was being punished for what she might have done in her previous life. How can a merciful God punish a child of ten ? In any case what she did in her previous life could not have been done if God did not will it to be done. If we agree that it was a punishment for some act for previous life than the father can not be blamed for the this act. He was only an instrument in the WILL of God. Let us face it God is nothing but an inversion of Man to explain things he could not explain, create an absolute authority and may be give hope when there is nonearun sharma---

Shree Hari Ram Ram

Arunji... have you read the Bhagavad Gita? Paramatma is not the doer, nor a punisher ! There have been previous discussions on this subject... in Gita Talk...you can search by topic. Ram Ram

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PRIOR POSTING

To my beloved sadhaks,

Where is God? Who has seen Him? How is God? How do I accept Him? What logic points towards God? Let us look at Gita 7/19"After taking many births and acquiring the human form and realizing that God is Everything, should such a knower (Jnanavan) surrender to Me, indeed such a great soul is a rarity. "Repeat such a great soul is a rarity. My question is how can one not see God, who cannot be aware of where He is, how He is, but to accept Him is a good place to start and how to do this is by establishing a direct affinity for God.Everything is God. God has in simple words, expounded to us the innermost secrets of the hearts of great souls of Vasudev Sarvam. God is Everything. God is a manifestation of all that is around us(trees, mountains, birds, animals, mankind)Bhagavan says(Gita 18/55)" After realizing my quintessence (Tattva) man immediately merges into Me."Those who want to attain God do so by Discipline of Action, Knowledge and Devotion.For more info on God realization go to Swamiramsukhdasjis site and read on how to attain God with humility.catherine andersen

-------------------------

Shree Hari:Ram Ram.

By Grace of God these questions are on my computer:

1. Where is God I have never seen Him? God is in your mind. You can't see God with your eyes as mental conceptions are not seen by us.

2. Who has seen Him? Nobody ever declared he/she has seen God.

3. How is He? Nobody ever described how is God.

4. If I don't know how do I accept? If you don't know accept or don't accept, choice is yours.

5. God is a term coined by elders to put moral shackles on us so that we may indulge in goodness. What harm is there if you indulge in goodness? Indulge in goodness or not, choice is yours.

6. There has to be some basis for His existence. What are the logics which point towards the existence of God? from where to pick the thread? Existence of Existence (termed Tattva, Sattaa by Swamijee Shree Ramsukhdasjee) needs no basis for its existence. Existence of Existence is all logic and all illogic but they can't point towards Existence of Existence similarly as you can't mix water into water when you are under water only. You are the beginning and you are the end of the thread. Pick it up and go. You shall finish at the other end of thread and shall be surprised to experience that what you sought is the seeker. Vasudev: Sarvam. (Gita 7:19).

If you conceive God, you fail to experience the experience as experience is experience only (Swamijee in God IS Everything page 2 last para "Similarly in this world, men, animals, birds, trees, mountains, stones, bricks, sand, lime, earth etc. are of diverse kinds, yet what resides intrinsically within, has no form and that formless essence is God".).

Bandhu, if anything is easiest it is Realizing God (Existence, not any human with four hands etc they are NOT God as they don't reside in everything, they come and go.) Who is ever Realized as You can't deny your existence. Ram Ram.

Kachcha Sadhaka Sarvottam.----

5 Fallacies & Realities about God Fallacies* Ego Consciousness Realities of Self Consciousness 1 Humans believe that God needs something. Humans know that God needs nothing. God is beyond needs and demands. 2 Humans believe that God can fail to get what He needs. Humans know that God can never fail to get what He does not need. He has no needs. God is his own measure beyond failures & successes. 3 Humans believe that God has separated them from Him because they have not given Him what He needs. Humans know that God has integrated them from Him because they are God in human form. God is beyond form and non-form as one Living Consciousness. 4 Humans believe that God still needs what He needs so badly that God now requires them, from their separated position, to give it to Him. Humans know that God never needs any thing from humans other that what they are and have. God is in human form. 5 Humans believe that God will destroy them if they do not meet His requirements. Humans know for God there is no destruction and creation but infinite manifestations of energy of Living Consciousness. Dance of Living consciousness is appearance & disappearance of Physical Universe.

*Neale Donald Walsch (The New Revelations)

Sushil Jain

PRIOR POSTING

Hare Krishna

God is worshipped in 3 forms:1. Attributeless-Formless (Nirgun-Nirakar)2. Attribute-Formless (Sagun-Nirakar)3. Attribute-Form (Sagun-Sakar)

Goswami Tulsidasji has said"NIRGUN ROOP SULABH ATI SAGUN JAAN NAHI KOI""The attributeless form of Parmatma is very easy to understand butno one can know the form of Parmatma with attributes."

The first form of Attributeless-Formless Pramatma can be proved bylogic of uninterrupted existence (akhand satta). The second form ofAttribute-Formless (Sagun-Nirakar) Parmatma can be proved by logicof conscious and sentient Creator, Sustainer and Destroyer.

But the third form of Parmatma with form and attributes (Ram,Krishna, Shiva etc.) cannot be proved by any logic, rationale etc.They can only be believed with purport of Gita, Ramayan, Sadhak-Sanjivani etc.If anyone argues over Ram being God then questions like these willarise "In forest how did Lord Ram get deceived by a gold-deer? If Heis deceived then how is He Omniscient? Why did Lord take the help ofSugreev's army? If He takes help then how come is He Almighty?...."

When Lord Ram killed Ravan's mighty brothers Khar and Dushan, Ravandecided to examine whether the Omniscient and Almighty Parmatma hastaken Ram-avatar. He kidnapped Sitaji (with disguise of an ascetic)by deceiving Lord with a golden-deer. Lord failed in the examinationand Ravan was successful in his evil plan, but what was the endresult? Lord Ram destroyed the entire clan of Lankan demonsalongwith Ravan.

That is why Goswamiji has said"RAM ATARKYA BUDDHI KAR JAANI""Lord Ram cannot be known by intellect."

Faith in Parmatma with form and attributes (known as Bhagwan) canonly be developed when one does satsang. Reading scriptures is alsoone form of Satsang.

Hare KrishnaVarun P. Paprunia

Hare KrishnaDear Sarphod Uncle,

I sincerely apologize to you and your family for the language I haveused. I thought you were just trying to outsmart us with yourintellectual prowess so I used the same ploy on you; but Sir you area true sadhak. Sadhanaji, Mikeji recognized you but because of my so-called cleverness I did not recognize you. Again my sincereapologies for the usage of harsh words and blunt language.

Hare KrishnaVarun P. Paprunia------------------------------Om, God = generator orgniser destroyer.Do you see the air? Nosuppose you don't see the air then you can't see the energies in theair that sustain our body. Suppose you want to hold a grand partyof 5000 people continuing 15 days, then how much work you have todo, you will distribute your work among your relatives. Think ofGod is a organising 600 crores or more ( not only about earth butthink about whole universe). Think who has that Supreme organizingpower ! You or God. God is in every thing from atom to Everest.Suppose you made a car that each and every thing came from you meanseach part of car made from you, by you. That is God. He iscolourless, touchless, soundless, shapeless because he is supremeenergy. If you trust and have faith in God. you will trust ongod.this is the one kind of work of god. because hi is ruling onus.Whether you go to the church or any mandir or masjid, your needsby pleading to your superior… He is That. And you say uponfulfilling your wish - "thank God" What is that power that isfulfilling your needs? Whether small or a big one, it is fulfilledand often no by your effort

Hari Om,nilesh popat mali,

-------------------------------PRIOR POSTING

To Respected Sadhaks of this really divine , perhaps the only of itskind across the globe, Satsanga Group!

It is me, Dear Brothers, with my Dear Begum Sahibaa respectfullythanking you all for gems of wisdom which you imparted to me and tothe world. An association of people like you, group like yours, isor can only be God willed. Indeed, with people like Vyasji, (extremely polished and never contradicting. Must be the one who hasseen/ touched the "dukhalayam" very closely, very wisely and wonover the same), Mike Keenor ( You are pride of the very humanity)Varun, ( I am sure he is younger than many of us- his impetuosity/quick reaction reflects that, but very clever and very organised-Refer Gita 16/1 - jnanayogarvyavasthitam- an ideal young follower)Pratapji Bhatt ( Spl regards for you, for not firing me back) , thatreal firebrand Dear Sister of all of us Shashikalajee ( What asharp discrimination you have been blessed with ! ), Mira Dassji (An impartial devotee /follower of Respected Swamiji RamsukhdasjiMaharaaj), Rajaji, Baiyaji and dozens like them, are the jewels ofthis divine forum. My heartfelt pranaams to Vineetji Sarvottam. Hiscomments were innocent and correct.

Thanks AgainSarphod TabalchiRaseeli Rani Tabalchi

--------------------------------PRIOR POSTING

Dear Sadhak,Yes, Sadhakji, you are a Sadhak-a seeker of Truth,this is what myKrishna says--

Chatur-vidha bhajante maam janh sukrutinorjuna!Aarto jijnasuj-arthaarthi jnaani cha bharatarshabha! (Gita 7 / 16)

O Arjuna! There are four types of noble souls who worship Me : Theafflicted, the seekers of knowledge, the seekers of enjoyment andthe wise.

Gigyasu - seekers of knowledge.

The main barrier in not seeing God here and now is that you areusing wrong tool my dear.You want to see God through yr mind, whichitself is Asat.A traveller of Gyaan Marg, must know the differencebetween Sat and Asat.He must disconnect himself from everythingwhich is Asat(temporary, everchanging). He needs to drop/disconnecthimself from everything-the world, its relations, his own body,senses, mind, intellect, ego..... When everything is dropped thereremains NOTHING.Just Nothing...simply Nothing.....From that NOTHING emerges Peace, Love and Bliss. From that Nothingemerges EVRYTHING... This is the beauty of Gyaan Yoga.

And the most wonderful,the most amazing truth about my belovedKrishna is---He(God) becomes whatever you want Him to be. When wesee HIM as our protector, He rushes to rescue us as in the case ofDropadi, when we see Him as our Friend, He becomes our friend as inthe case of Sudama, when we accept HIM as all powerful miraculousbeing, miracles start unfolding in our lives.When we see HIM in astatue, he becomes motionless. He is everywhere in all forms,andwithout forms too, just we are unable to see him due to our ownlimited vision.When we accept HIM as our Guide and Guru, like Arjuna did, and wishto see HIS Vishwaroopa, He bestow us divine vision and we see Him ineverything, everywhere. I see many people saying God does not exist,money is God..ect, etc. So what, He does not hesitate to become nonexistence for them, still showering His Love....No discrimination inHis regime.

He just "IS". I love Swamiji the way He describes HIM. SomewhereSwamiji said-He IS or He IS NOT, this "IS" remains the same in boththe statement(nahi main bhi hai or hai main bhi hai).wow...Howblessed this human form is!!!

How divine this forum is!!!Lets be Love, Peace and Bliss !Shivoham! Shivoham!!With lots of Love,A SadhikaSadhna Karigar------------------------------

1. Where is God I have never seen Him? You cant see HIM as HE is anobject. Have you seen Saturn planet? How do you belive thatscientist? You belive based on Knowledge. In temples 2000 years oldthere are nine planets know as Nava Graha. How they saints knewwithout scientific proof.2. Who has seen Him? 100 `s of saints.3. How is He? HE is formless and with form or any form HIS devoteneeds.4. If I dont know how do I accept? If you dont know, try to know.Still your if you fail- It Gods will.5. God is a term coined by elders to put moral shackles over us sothat we may indulge in goodness. Why your parents put morals asshakles to put you good charactor. So is God put. Just understandit. If you think shackles you are mistaking. If you think guidanceyou will progress.6. There has to be some basis for his existence? What are the logicswhich point towards the existence of God? From where to pick thethread? Nine planets and earth are in space floating. Who made them?You want to make something you gather material and put your effortto make project. So there is someone who is behind all and yourthinking capacity. Otherwise could be a lay man.Jai Sri Krishnabaiya sathyanarayan------------------------------Pranam

God exists. If you want solid evidence I recommend you searchon "milkmiracle" You will see for your self.

bvmJai Shree Ram------------------------------

Dear Mumukshus (those who yearn for Divinity), Namaste. For thosewho yearn for Divinity's Peak Experience, no such doubt arises; infact their question would be why shd they have doubt in God!Doubting God takes one nowhere.

Trying to reach the divinity is the correct way. There is no proofof the dreams we have very regularLy. They don't 'exist' in thesense of all these existing objects, you see.

WHERE IS GOD WHOM I DON'T SEE:Do you 'see' the radio waves, electricity, magnetism? Do you seelove, hatred, jealousy? Do they not exist? Why all shd be visible?

WHO HAS SEEN HIM?A lot of people have 'witnessed' 'Him to whom the divinity hasrevealed 'itself'.

WHO IS HE? - HOW IS HE LIKE?He is She and is That. One form for one thing is inapplicable inthat experience of visioning the Reality which is The Absolute amongthe experiences.

IF I DON'T KNOW HOW DO I ACCEPT?The dead people, unborn people, people who are far away - you can'tsee them. Do you lose belief in such invisible all? Be honest inanswering these abstract questions.

GOD IS A SCHAKLE . . . GOODNESS.God is not directly linked to morality, goodness, honesty, kindnessetc which we teach for our youngsters to whom we want good futureand for building in them the moral character which saves oursociety. All honest people won't see God; no dishonest person cansee God.

THERE HAS TO BE SOME BASIS FOR THE EXISTENCE OF GOD. WHAT ARE THELOGICS FOR THE EXISTENCE OF GOD? FROM WHERE TO PICK THE THREAD?We do ask for proofs for the objective things only. God astranscendental baffles those objectives. There is no harm in thedisbelief about God. But missing a chance of His experience whileborn as human beings is to miss a great opportunity. We do all thosethings of happiness. enjoying etc for which we can afford. We canafford to have a Peak Experience in this human life. Why not try?If you surf the Youtube on the Internet, try among them thespiritual masters' sayings. Ramana Maharshi, NisargaduttaMaharaj . . there are scores of them who are the proofs of God.You may want to read Tony Parsons book, 'The Open Secret'.

I am not glorifying him or anybody in this context. I wanted toshare with people who are seekers like me. I wish all our people thebest of luck during this Christmas and Happiness in the New Year.

Dr Shastry--------------------------------1. Where is God I have never seen Him? You cant see HIM as HE is NOTan object. Have you seen Saturn planet? How do you belive thatscientist? You believe based on Knowledge. In temples 2000 years oldthere are nine planets know as Nava Graha. How they saints knewwithout scientific proof.2. Who has seen Him? 100 `s of saints. In Duryodhan Shaba when SriKrishna took Virat roop, everyone folded their hand and seen HIM asGod except Duryodhan who told it was illusion.3. How is He? HE is formless and with form or any form HIS devoteneeds.4. If I dont know how do I accept? If you dont know, try to know.Still your if you fail- It Gods will. Yasodha accepted Sri Krishnawith love and compassion, so she tie HIM up with rope to a roller.Duryodhan wanted to tie up Sri krishna who took Virat roop unable totie up. It is the way you accept.Jai Sri Krishna

baiya sathyanarayanPRIOR POSTINGJai Hanuman

I agree entirely with Usha Sridhar. Dear Sister! Keep writingregularly . You are precise, accurate and perfect. So is SisterAnita- absolutely correct and "really" .practical and therefore onthe path of Gita 7:19 ! Welcome Brother Wilson ! Welcome Ram Bhai !O Daddy the Great ! Let such "Divinity" continue flowing unto thisGT Group ! So Pleasing ! So unbelievable !! So many reasons toexclaim with pleasure- "Brilliant" !

Thanks Sarphod ! How is your Begum Sahibaa ! It is a sin to make hercry- Get me ? SIN - I say! Do you understand what is sin? "Anguishof your soul" is most of the times " your sin" - also ! AlmostAlways!

Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj would often say that what is the proofthat Mr X is your father - BASED ON YOUR PERSONAL/ INDIVIDUAL/REMEMBERED/EXPERIENTIAL-"KNOWLEDGE"?

No body, come what may, has been able to "prove" in the past, norcan they do so in the present , nor will they be able to "prove"that in the future ! Nor can there be any possibility of provingthat. If you can't "prove" the existence of your even this father onearth, how can you prove the existence of your "eternal father"?

Reason: "Self" Proven ! Obvious !! Beyond Mind/ Intellect/Ego !

"Acceptance"/ "Faith" / "Belief" - is the only remedy. If some bodywants to argue on this - Come On !! Hats off to you BrotherWilson !! Please keep contributing and participating in thisSatsanga forum!

Mike Bhaiyya ! I gleefully noted three things in your latestmessage -

1 An Aussie !2 Clever 'little' dialogue!! ( Jeeva -Maya - Jagdish. Maya is in thecenter. Noted that Brother? Between the two ! )

Above all -

3 Flowers in the Sky !!!!

(What an effort by You? What a research ! How well read , indeed !So difficult! Yet so obvious ! So handy ! So quick - within hours ofposting the 'little dialogue' ! So Self Proven ! So inaccessible !Yet so easily available !

But available in the universe to whom ? Available why ? How timelyand exactly ?

Sure, the poem was already existing in this creation / uiniverse fora long long time- it was not Mike Keenor made- but what about itsmanifestation !! )

Thanks indeed ! Unbelievable! "DIVINE" !! Do you get us MrSarphod? - We are Sadhaks ! Only "Sadhaks" !

Namaste JeeJee JeeShashikala---

Dear Vyasji,

You have answered beautifully. But, the problem is that Tabalchi jiis more interested in getting 'brilliant' and similar appreciatorycomments from others (as is evident from his second mail).

Before trying to know God (Where is God I have never seen Him? isTabalchi ji's first question), he should explain what he is. If heknows about himself, then he will see God's smiling face. Again, theproblem is that Tabalchiji is depending on others even to know "koaham (who am I)"

May I quote from Shankara ? "KASHTWAM KOHAM KUTAH AAYAATAH, KA MEJANANI KO ME TATAH" (who are you, who am I, from where have I come,who is my mother and who is my father).

Kind regards,Suresh C SharmaPRIOR POSTINGHari Om

One who has thirst inside, only can see water. If there is nothirst, inspite of water being in your front, it is not noticed byyou. Similarly , one who has thirst for God only can "see" God, andone who has thirst for world only, "sees" the world.

It is your desire which in fact determines what you can or can notsee- IRRESPECTIVE OF WHAT IN FACT EXIST OR DOES NOT EXIST.

Because of your desire for the world only you see the world which inreality NEVER EXISTS. Because of your non-desire only you can notsee God who in reality ALWAYS EXISTS !!

Want to see God? Mr Sarphod? Develop desire for Him !!

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B----------------------------

Dear members,

This is the first time I am writing on this forum - not because Ididnt wish to comment earIier, but only because I am too young inthis stage - by experience and by learning.However, looking at the questions raised below, I thought I shouldat least share my feelings:

1.God is no external being - he or she is part of each one of us -all living beings. So please, do not try to explain to children thatgod is some type of other person. And therefore, each one of us hasthe responsibility to lead a life which moves towards positivity,looking at betterment, and not hurting people, beings by our act.

Seeing GOD - we all have. Only some have realised him. He is in mymaid who comes to work each morning, he is in my child - who hugs meevery time I meet him, he is in my husband - who lives with me andhas made my life complete. I have seen him in the rickshaw walla -who stopped by me to offer me ride to office yesterday. I see himevery day in different forms - sometimes, I too do not realise thatit was him who smiled in the morning and made my day. Everytime youmeet a person who does good to you - he or she is a reflection ofGOD. So, see god in all and see all in him.2.The world is like stage (as Shakespears has said) - and all of usare in here to play a role - be it tree, human, animal, you and me.And so is a child here to play a role. All our roles are defined bythis supreme power, whom we call GOD.

3. There are many happenings in our life which we humans are notable to explain - all this we credit to that UnKnowableforce/energy - GOD.

Try to see GOD in your family - your parents, your collegues, yourneighbours, and all the people whom you meet - search for that lightin them and do a small good act to make them happy. GOD would bethere with you!

Anita Sharma-------------------------Maybe my use of the word brilliant, can be misconstrued,a little tooAussie, it was intended as a exclamation of pleasure.

I know you are playing the roll of 'devils advocate', as clearly youwould understand, Maya and Jeeva in Jee Jee Shashikalaji's cleverlittle dialog.

Best to direct a single question to a Sadhak/Sadhaks.

See Zen poem below:(Emptiness in full Bloom).

Leaping from the Ledge of Infinite Regress,The Unmoved Mover fell into Formlessness:Pure silence echoed between the galaxies,Eons of eons vanished in a second,Withered trees bloomed in fires,Polar mountains melted, rivers went dry,Thusness scattered in sixty directions,Space became Time, time became things,Black Holes filled with Nirvana,A billion samadhi mirrors shattered,Galaxies snuggled within a single skull,Many became One, One only, only One.Then, the Divine Illuminatrix in All BeingsOpened Her clouded Eye, to see:Flowers in the Sky.

With Respect and Divine Love,

Mike Keenor

--------------------------Hari Om.

Respected sir,I've studied from my childhood that motheris our first GOd.We can see God only through our mother,father and Guru.Where is the proof that you came through your mother's womb?If you can explain how you passed through your mother with proof,I can explain with Krushna's Grace the true Krushna provided youhave the permission to see Krushna.Rest in my next.Hari Om.With Regards,Ushasridhar.

--------------------------

Jesus Says.I am the way, I am the Truth, I am the Faith. Please read the Bible.thanksWilson Kochukunju

Dear Mr. Sarfod & friends,

Since the beginning of human civilization, the question whetherthere is a God (or Gods), has occupied the human mind. It has alsobeen answered by various people in various ways in all the ages.But, the question has persisted till this day.

I have my own explanation. I emphatically say that Parmatma doesexist. The entire universe is within Him and He is also beyond theUniverse. He is so great and also so small that nobody can see Himwith his naked eye. He can only be realized. Regarding proof, everyliving being and every plant testifies His existence. With his super-intelligence, man has been able to do most amazing things andcreated wonders. But, man is still way behind in creating anythingthat is self generating. Every creation of God, on the other hand,is self-generating and self sustaining. Reproduction is a specialfeature of every species. Yet, every species has a life-time afterwhich it vanishes. Even this earth will meet its death some day. Wesee planets and stars dying and new ones coming up every day. Thisnever ending cyclic order of creation, recreation, assimilation andre-emergence is a glaring proof of His existence.

Yours sincerely,Ram Bhai------------------------------Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!Varunji, I want to thank you so much for speaking out to Tabalchijiabout I being not judgemental at all. As a friend and a fellowseeker, I was suggesting, Tabalchiji to read as many times as neededto grasp the meaning or at least ask questions to clarify points.Most of us know that when we read or hear 2nd or 3rd time it makesso much difference in our understanding!I want to wish you the very best Tabalchiji. One day you may wake upand find all answers about Truth of God, this world and "you".All sadhakas have provided excellent answers/pointers!Wishing you the best of Xmas Holidays and New Year, my fellowsadhaks, I remain prayerful!Namaskar......Pratap Bhatt

 

-------------------------------PRIOR POSTING-Shree Hari-

Sarphodji,

You know; the world as you see it, is a shadow of what it really is,I once heard it described as seeing the reflections of reality on theback of a cave wall, one has to turn around to see the glory of whatit is.Most people it seems, focus their whole lives looking at the falsereality reflected on the wall of the cave.Have we not all read about Yogis with extraordinary abilities? Isthis all lies, do such souls look on the doubters such as yourself,say nothing, smile or laugh as Lord Krishna laughed, they havenothing to prove , all the doubters have to do is turn around as itwere, to understand.

One great soul that I admire was Swami Vivekananda, to me he seems tobe a man ahead of his time, a person of great intellect, and aspiritual giant. It was he that aroused the world to the wealth thatIndia had to give.

11th September, 1893: 'Response to welcome' address:

"Swami Vivekananda addressed the august assembly of seven thousandpeople starting with the words: "Sisters and Brothers of America...",and the whole of audience went into inexplicable rapture withstandingovation and clapping that lasted for more than three minutes......."

If you consider you have a mind of sound reasoning, then maybe youcould read the yoga aphorisms, translated by that great Swami. (Ifyou require any translation).

Why does your Lady weep, is it because she sees the anguish of yoursoul. No matter what you may say or truly think, you are in conflict,do you understand ? Jee Jee Shashikalaji has hinted at it, otherSadhaks have made the point also, things like why ask about thatwhichdoes not exist etc.Sadhaks have implied that they have been through that battle. Ihave,I will tell you this, how much you reach for Father, how much you cryfor him, the tears of anguish will then turn to tears of joy, whenyour heart breaks loose from prison that binds it.

You may not understand what I am writing about, but one day you will.

With Respect and Divine Love,

Mike Keenor-----------------------------Dear Sadaks,I have not seen God yet. That is the reason I am not silent. The onewho has seen God remains silent. Let us not make tell Mr.SherphodVedanta/Upanashids.1.Where is God I have never seen Him? To see a program on TV, oneneeds TV Equipment, Power (electricity), and telecasting tower2. Who has seen Him? One who has turned his body equipment as atemple, Power of tuning (Craving to liberate) in mind, as mind haselectricity, magnatism, and telecasting tower (GOD) omnipresent.Just one has to tune to HIS frequency that is surrender.3. How is He? HE is benevolent to come in any form you meditate.4. If I dont know how do I accept? Go on saying any name of HIS.Eventually HE will tune to your frequency as HE did to Druva.Jai Sri Krishnabaiya sathyanarayan----------------------------

Dear Sirphod

I made a posting on your question. There was no attempt by me or forthat matter by any body (from the posts I see) who could give youanswers like you might be expected.

If you want to learn about God (accept or otherwise is a differentissue) you need to spend time and energy. You can select a Guru whocan help you. I do not see from your postings you have thisexpectation, but the one below.

But if your goal is to dispute existence of God, there could beanohter forum that must be working on such attempts.

By the way you can come out with your real name.

Venu Komanduri

PRIOR POSTING

Hi Sarphod Tabalchi,1. Where is God I have never seen Him?It seems you never tried to see God. Seeing God is not possible byour physical eye. Those who have an insight of God only can see God.If you try sincerely seeing God is would not be a problem. There aremany ways prescribed in our scriptures. First, Have faith in it.Then after you never deny God.2. Who has seen Him?I see Him always and communicate with Him. Not only with God, I talkto birds and animals. I can understand them and they understand me.3. How is He?He is always Happy. He never deny anything. He never denied myexistence. He wants everyone happy.4. If I dont know how do I accept?Dont reejct anything. Accept everything as it is. Never expectanything in your way accept everything as it is. Keep God in yourmind if you dont know God. Chant Oh God Oh God Oh my God wheneveryou want deny God.5. God is a term coined by elders to put moral shackles over us sothat we may indulge in goodness.If you know this much of God you should not deny God.6. There has to be some basis for his existence? What are the logicswhich point towards the existence of God? From where to pick thethread?First you ask your Parents who are patient to teach you the basicconcept of God existence. Once you have prerequesites to learn GodGod comes to you automatically. Be Patient. Can you ever see theelectricity passing through a wire. A bulb is shining, Have you everenquired about the electricity which illumines the bulb? Think aboutTV., Fridge, Air Conditioner etc., etc. whcih can not functionwithout electricity. Even you can not ask these questions withoutthat power unseen in you. My dear beleive in God is far easier thandenying God.Lovingly, Krishna (Shobha) Das

------------------------Wonderful testing of sadhaks by Tabalchi jiWe all must thank him for the excellent questions and for giving anopportunity to better our understanding in the spiritual domain.

All questions have very easy answers. Excellent expression by allsadhaks...in answering these.

But it is very difficult to satisfy the questioner on the answers.since these very questions cloud everything....and become obstaclesto understanding the truthsince it is about knowing the questioner first............knowing orseeing God comes much later.....

It has happened to perhaps all of us in the beginning and we mayhave gone through this period.But if we are able to contemplate on the questions with someguidance, question begin to dissolve/disappear........and theanswers start looking meaningful........

So, Tabalchi ji and the begum sahiba could start with contemplatingexercise on the questions firstfor example:

Q1 Where is God? ----contemplate on......where it should be? whatcould be the place where it could be,why it can not be hear with us?Q2 Does God exist? ---- Contemplate on.....Who am I? ask yourselfrepeatedly who am I?Q3 Who has seen him is irrelevant? My seeing is important socontemplate on questions - Why I don't see the God? Can I see it?What could it look like? What should it be?Q4 If I don't know how do I accept? Contemplate on What I don'tknow? Do I know all? How can I know more?Q5 Any other word other than God could be used for it. Contemplateon: Is goodness gives happiness? Are moral values important? Whywe need to fear the word God to be good?Q6 Contemplate on questions: What is basis of its existence? Whatis the basis of our existence? What God must exist? Why prophetshave to come to this world? Who are these prophets?

See what comes as answers. It is a good learningexercise......answers are within and we must practice to startlistening.....everyone has to do this for himself..............bestwishes......Thank you....Sushil Jain

----------------------------Dear Sarphod:

I have similar questions that you have.

Following is the status of those questions (mind you not answers):

1. Just beacuse I can not see GOD, that does not mean that there isnothing like GOD which exists, since there are so many things thatexist and yet I can not see (ex: Air, Gases and so many unknowns tomankind yet)

2. Same way as I have the question on the existence of GOD, I alsohave the question on my question itself, i.e. I can not prove thatthere is no GOD either.

3. Say suppose some one suddenly shows me the GOD, what are my testsand verifications to accept him/her/it as GOD. Do I have all thosetools, a big NO (I am not sure about you)

4. Even if I have all those tools to test the existence of GOD andall the tests are proved positive, then is it going to help me. Thatmeans, do I have the right objective to find out this very unusualthing called GOD? What is that single biggest thing that isbothering me about finding out this GOD? Does it have theseriousness to find out the GOD? If it does all the above questionsshould be answerd positively. Or else, I am not sincere in my quest.

5. I might not have all these tools right now, yet I have the questto know about the existence of GOD, then I do not jump in to quickconclusions like "There is no GOD, this forum is not DIVINE, etc.,"because that conclusion neither helps me nor taps in to the rightsources of knowledge. I will be just fooling myself saying "I askeda question which this forum is not able to answer"

Just for the record, I remember in the whole known history ofmankind, only one person (Sri Ramakrishna Paramahansa) has admittedto have seen GOD and was ready to show GOD to the one who wasearnestly with deepest intellectual anxiety and sincerity (SwamiVivekananda).

The one who has shown and the one who was shown the GOD did not havequestions. The SOURCE and the SINK are in the perfect state of mind,one to give and the other to receive. Am I in the equanimity levelsof Swami Vivekananda? I don't think I am and let me know if you are.

If you think you are, just stay there with sincere hope, ARAMAKRISHNA will happen to you and your intellectual quest might befulfilled.

If not I need to get there before I start looking for GOD. Till suchtime, GOD is tentative truth for me.

With a hope it might help you,Sincerely,Krishna (devangam krishnamurthy)Hare Krishna

Sarphod, you have praised me by saying "I am very good". FYI! I wasnot entertaining you but I was questioning YOUR very existence. Youdon't have any doubt in your existence still you cannot prove it.Why so?? Have you thought over it?? If you can prove it (with yourlogic/rationale) then why don't you do it?

Mikeji called you brilliant (I wonder why) but he has also calledyou inflexible. But I think you have not noted that. He, Vyasji,Pratapji and others have also given many points. You should thinkover it, compare it with your logic and then prove it wrong. But forthis one need guts, because you will have to keep aside yourprejudices to think over others' points. Even if you are not able toprove us wrong it does not mean that we can make you accept God, wecan only give logics/rationale.

No one can force anyone to accept God, especially those who do notrespect their father. If you cannot respect your father than how canyou accept and respect the biggest father (Param-PitaParmeshwar).Your father has deserted you and your wife also seems tobe upset with your adamant attitude, but you still don't have anyshame in admitting it. Rather than introspecting over your attitudeyou are defending it.

Pratapji has not passed any judgment; it is you who is passingjudgments. Mike is best, Varun is very good, Vyas NB is making methink. If these are not judgements then what is it? Pratapji hascorrectly pointed out that you are not reading posts with an openmind.

You have posted these questions only because your wife has directedyou to this group. This is the biggest problem because you are notinterested in knowing or learning anything, you are only askingthese questions just for the sake of it, just for a mere formality.

Mrs. Sarphod, please don't insist your husband to post questions. Heis only wasting our time and also don't reveal him anything aboutGita, because if you do so you will unnecessarily incur sin (Gita18.67)

You cannot see God or feel His presence but you definitely feel yourexistence as "I AM", right? Then why can't you prove it with yourlogic. I have asked 3 questions w.r.t. your existence but did notget any reply.

Hare KrishnaVarun P. Paprunia---------------------

Jai Hanuman

Mr Sarphod ! So you do not think or talk or desire regarding "flower of sky"- because it does not exist. You yourself said that.You can think/desire/talk about only that thing which exists.

Now this is the biggest proof. You thought about God. You talkedabout God. You desired to know about God. You raised questions inthis forum about God. How can you do that- if God does not exist?

If you can do that then why did you not talk about "flower of sky"?As a law you can desire about only that thing which exists.

Answer now! To the point only. ONLY to the point.

You said yourself that you would believe in your parents even ifthey were dead immediately after your birth, because there is abasis. The presence of yourself itself is an indicator of theirexistence. True. Now go backwards. Presence of your parents meansyour grand parents were there. Go backwards and keep going. In theend you will find one male and one female. Who were their parents?

God is "Param Pita" - our eternal father.

Clear?

Namaste Jee

Jee JeeShashikala

 

----------------------Hari Om

You wanted as to what is sample of God. Answer as given by Varunjiis correct. You , yourself, are "sample" of God ! Because like God,you are also permanent and faultless. Everybody "experiences" that -I EXIST. ( You talked about experiencing- I am talking aboutexperience only) . Do you have any doubt Mr Sarphod that you are notexisting ? You never have any doubt on this. You never conduct anytest to determine whether you exist or not. You neverexperience/feel that - I DID NOT EXIST. About past you may saythat "I don't know", but you can't say "I didn't exist" ! How canyou say so?

Why can't you say? Because you have never perceived your"self" tobe non existing. Non existence of your"self" has never come intoyour experience. Even in respect of the daily occuring of deepsleep, your experience never suggests that at that time you were nonexistent. But at the same time you experience directly theabsence of ego, intellect, mind and body etc., in the deep sleep.

So you exist.So He exists.

Now you are constantly experiencing changes/temporariness in yourbody. Who can experience that? Only that element (Self) which ispermanent and changeless and who is looking separately canexperience so..

So you are permanent. You are witness. You are changeless. You arenot body. You exist both with or without body. You exist.

Similarly God is also permanent. God is also witness. God is alsochangeless. God exists both with or without body. God exists.

So you exist. At present you are existing Mr Sarphod Now in yourbody. In which part of the body you are existing Mr Sarphod? Inwhich part of the body you are not existing Mr Sarphod? In fact youare existing everywhere in the body.

God exists everywhere in the universe as you exist everywhere inthe body.

Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B------------------------------By summery of GITA: "Tat Twam Asi" or 'That You Are'This logic is explained by Many in different way, as Jesus : "Keepyour self as pure as a Temple, so that GOD can reside in you"As the world today is more scientific, we require proof by ourSenses.No machine can prove Logic.By psychologist EEG machine shows that Yog has a point when we gainenergy from vast outer energy when we Join our inner energy during ameditative state.Todays scientific terms were not expressed before. So we can saypositive Energy in us and arround is GOD.This GOD creates and increases, but the negative energy will growonly to destroy and eliminate named 'devil' !The different State of Mind or Self is depicted in the Epics ofRamayana and Mahabharata by the characters playing in the theatre ofthis World.The Conditions of Heaven and Hell are also due to this state of self.

'Tat Twam Asi' in definition of GOD as 'Bramah-Vishnu-Maheshwar' isalso what we see in us.Psychological mind as Male-Female has in us as a Child, Learning andCreating with help of 'Sarswati-Bramah'. Then as we are in ourYouth, we Earn and Run our life with the help of 'Laxmi-Vishnu'. Atthe end of life our Old age, Eliminate and Destroy many beliefs withthe help of 'Shakti-Shiv'. Thus we prepare our self for the nextbirth. The Energy, called 'spirit' by many, is indistructible andchange form. We can ralise it and can even see as Vivekananda(nonbeliever of statue) was shown by Guru Ramakrishna(ardent idolworshiper). The idol is the Mirror to see our self !--RegardsSwapan PURKAYASTHA

 

--------------------------------PRIOR POSTING

Dear Sarphod:

I adore your persistence to what you think is right - that is a goodquality to seek truth. At the same time, I am a bit disappointed inits lopsidedness! It is not clear what you want, frankly.

I have two questions for you: Are you afraid of "God"? Do you urgefor "God"?

If "YES" to any of these questions, you have a problem. You can'tstick to your current logical conviction. It is obvious that yourcurrent logical conviction irrespective of its self-proclaimedexcellence is JUST NOT DOING ITS JOB :(. Your logical provess canclaim accolades ONLY IF it removes your fears and quench yourdesires.If not removal, at least a nominal reduction in their intensity iswarranted ... if your intellect is working straight.

If "NO" to any of these questions, I see a bigger problem. Why areyou confusing yourself with these questions. That "NO" becomesmeaningless just because you are incapable of letting the veryquestions go! The very reason you are raising these questions provethat you are infested either by fear or by desire or by bothregarding "God". THAT IS EXCELLENT!

Then, it is "YOUR" primary responsibility to address the same. As Imentioned earlier, your current intellect is incapable of helping youout. Then, you have to make a shift in your thinking to inspect theignorance harbored within. Pardon me for calling it ignorance. But,the fact is ... it is. Inherent fears and desires can never let anindividual happy. They create the turbulence within in terms ofthemselves. The existence of miseries is proof enough that we are notapplying our intellect in the right direction. After all, it iscommon sense that we do everything ONLY FOR ONE REASON - to behappy. I am sure you agree with it.

The question is are you happy with these questions as such or are youreally interested in a possible solution. If you are happy with thesequestions, be happy. You can never get the solution though! If youreally need a solution, QUESTION the very questions. That is the onlyway out left for you to be happy. Do you have any other choice? Ifyou have, please pursue. Being happy is the bottom line of allactions ... being happy ... being happy but nothing else.

Nobody can instruct you what God Is! You have to figure it outyourself.

I don't know who misled you that this or anything specific "is adevine forum" as if anything else is not! If you seek divinity,everything is devine. If not, some may claim "divinity" as if therest is not. Please do not get trapped into such notions ... if youreally want to seek clarity regarding your question. Question yourquestions ... TRUTHFULLY. You will see the end of the tunnel.

Again, PLEASE DO NOT EXPECT OR INSIST FOR EXPLICIT INSTRUCTIONSREGARDING GOD. YOU WILL NOT GET ANY ANSWER ... UNLESSS ... YOU SEE ITWITHIN YOURSELF! The only suggestion I can make is ... look for ITwithin. Because, looking out all these years has seemingly remainedfutile! There is no point in digging into others' psyche when mine isnot receptive enough. If I insist to continue, I can guarantee myselfof more confusion to come!! Because ... GOD cannot be held within any"psyche" as such.

Anyway, just few suggestions to think about ... think about it if youwant ... ONLY IF YOU WANT.

All The Best.

Respects.

Naga Narayana

 

PRIOR POSTINGDear "Sadhaks" (?)

Why my simple questions are not getting answered. Shashikalajeeasked me some questions, instead of replying to me. I , upon theadvice of my Begum Saahiba humbly replied to her. Now instead ofresponding to me, she has given a conversation between a son and hismother. My Begum is insisting to me that I should again and againread that. OK I will do that. But let me answer her anotherquestion. I have not desired to smell "flower of sky" , because itdoes not exist. Sometimes I feel that both my Begum Sahibaa and youSadhaks have lost mind. What a funny question Shashikalajee hasasked. How can I desire or talk or know about a thing which doesn"texist? This is my basic fundamental and solid argument. Vyas N B isgiving indicators which require me to think. I am thinking. But thebest among you is Mike Keenor. He told me to remain solid. Headviced me to remain tenacious, merciless and hang on. I am hangingon. But then why Vineet Sarvottam told me lies? Varun Paprunia gavehim a fitting reply. Varun - you are very good. This Pratap Bhattis rebuking me. Why? What is my fault. On one hand you are simplygiving me round round answers. On other hand you are passingjudgement. Is this a conduct of a sadhak. Please reply to me. Orsay - none of you have capacity to answer my simple questions. MyBegum Sahibaa has already started crying. Have mercy on her atleast. But Mike praised me. He called me "brilliant".

Waiting for answers.

Sarphod Tabalchi---------------------------We all struggle with these questions. The answers I found logical isthis: There is something beyond mind and matter. Some will call thatsomething Omnipotent, Omniscient, Omnipresent. Others will call itrandom nothing. Another question one hears is why do I want to knowThat Something. To Know, or to Control it? Here in lies the paradoxand answer: If it is to know only: He is right there with you,within you: The Life, Love Peace. If it is to control so that wecontrol our surrounding: That is the struggle of Ego. Arjuna had tosee the Universal form to get over the final hurdle.Jay Shree Krishna.

Hemendra Parikh-------------------------------Dear devotees of Lord Krishna,The discussion is interesting. I learned the gita much better afterseeing the life experience of a realized lady, who had darshan ofLord Krishna ( first darshan of Lords feet after chanting a slokafrom 10 th chapter of Gita for 30,000 times continuously for 30days ). Her conversations with the Lord have been recorded inTamil, and can be shared with the group if interested.With kind regards,Sincerely,P.Vivekanandan-------------------------------

Try Brahmacharya ( the vow of celibacy in thought, word and deed, bywhich one attains Self-realisation or reaches Brahman) and you willsee for yourself the value.

The Srutis declare: "Naayam Atma balaheenena labhyah - This Atman isnot attainable by a weak man." In the Gita you willfind: "Yadichhanto brahmacharyam charanti - That desiring whichBrahmacharya is performed" (Chap. VIII-11). "Trividham narakasyedamdvaram nasanamatmanah; kamah krodhastatha lobhastasmad etat trayamtyajet - O Arjuna! Triple is the gate of the hell, destructive ofthe Self; lust, wrath and greed: therefore let man renounce thesethree" (Chap. XVI-21). "Jahi satrum mahabaho kamarupam durasadam -Kill this powerful enemy, passion, by the observance ofBrahmacharya" (Chap. III-43).

If we are determined to attain the goal of life by leading a purelife, we must keep this mind busily engaged in Divine thoughts,concentration, meditation, study and service of humanity.

It is difficult to eradicate lust. But you need not despair even abit. Have faith in God, in His Name and in His grace. Lust cannot becompletely rooted out of the mind except by the grace of the Lord.You are bound to succeed if you have faith in Him. The Divine Graceis needed. God helps those who help themselves.

Until man continues to cling to worldliness, Paramatma cannot begrasped by him.

You can read more about this in the "Easy Steps to Yoga" by SriSwami Sivananda.chirag almoula

--------------------------------PRIOR POSTING

Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!Tabalchiji, with all the respect for you and questions, I may pointout that no one can make anyone see anything let alone God if thatperson doesn't want to see. It seems like you may be insistent uponseeing God in the way you want to see.Please forgive me if I am wrong, but as a friend I am saying. Itseems like you may not have read the postings with open mind, withthe desire to know the truth. Open mind doesn't mean accepting, itmeans you must give a fair reading/hearing and then asking pertinentquestions or raise doubts based on what is read. Here your responsesindicate you have decided that God cannot exist for you if youcannot see or have some logic to prove God's existence. One has tosee that "seeing God" means deep understanding of intuitive naturein this context where mind being limited cannot comprehend. It hasto be prepared to be open. Our conditioned mind is incapable ofgrasping truth.Some of us provided solid logic, but it still fell short to make yousee the pointers.I said one cannot say "I don't see God" without knowing what God heis looking that he cannot find. One has to know what one wants tosee, right? One can say "I don't know God, tell me what/where Ishould look, and how to recognize". It is different than show meGod, right?Once again, God is the Conscious/Intelligent Existence as reflectedin our experience of "I am" right now as you read these words. Infirst posting, dialogue was used to illustrate it as a solid proofone cannot deny.There are ways to experience God for which senses-mind-intellect isnot capable like they are for knowing objects. Nevertheless, thereis proof of God more reliable than that.But this point didn't make any impression.I request you with humility to re-read responses again and see whathappens!Namaskar..............Pratap Bhatt-------------------------------Hare Krishna

Okay Mr. Sarphod,

Let's put God's existence out of equation for a moment and onlydiscuss about sample/logics/rationales w.r.t. YOUR existence.

I AM

Well, you don't have any doubt in your existence, right? Your bodyhas changed and it is rapidly changing every second. But Mr.Sarphod, is you also changing with the body? You are certainly notchanging with it because if you were changing then who would haveknown the change in body? You are that changeless element who knowsthe change in body. Isn't it? Childhood, youth, old age are thechanging phases of the body but you are that changeless element whois witness to all these changes. It is a law that only a changelesselement can perceive the ever-changing element. My question - Whatis the basis of your never-changing existence? If you considerbody's existence as your existence then you are defying all logic,because body is changing every second!!!

I and MINE

It is a law that whatever is mine, it is never I. For example youconsider your house, car, wife, children etc. as mine but you neverconsider them as I. But in the case of body you say 'my hands, mylegs, my stomach, my ears, my eyes, my throat etc.' andsimultaneously you also consider it as 'I' e.g. I am not feelingwell. You establish two transversal relationships with the body,that of 'I' and 'MINE'. Whichever thing is mine it is always apart(separate) from you, and that thing which is separate from you, howcan it be I? This body is also apart from you but still you call itas I. Is this logical?

Mr. Sarphod, now I wish to see you. Can you show me yourself???Ohh... please don't show me that body which you claim it as mine. Iwant to see that Mr. Sarphod who claims the body as mine. In otherwords, I want to see that element which you refer to as I?

Before that I am eager to know whether you have ever seen yourself.According to you anything that exists is perceptible. So Mr.Sarphod, with which instrument have you seen yourself?

If you have not seen yourself then, well ..... do you exist ?????

And at last one more question- Whose name is Sarphod - body oryourself?

Mr. Sarphod, with your logics/samples/rationales etc., first prove

1. Your existence.2. The basis of your existence.3. The instrument with which you have seen/felt your existence.

Then we will also discuss about God's existence....

As Sarphodji is contemplating over his existence, in the mean time,those sadhaks whose faith in God has dwindled with his questions,they are requested to read this Sadhaka postingsadhaka/message/2108

Hare KrishnaVarun P. Paprunia-------------------------------

Jai Hanuman

(Shrimad Bhagvad Geeta- Marathi Edition- By Saint Gyaaneshwarji-Chapter 13- Kalyaan- By Narainduttji Gaur )

Jeeva ( J) (We all- as referred in BG 15:7) :

Mom pls tell me , when I was born?

Maya , Mother Nature, Prakrati, Illusion (As referred in BG 7: 13/14)( M ) :

( Irritated) What non sense! Is it some thing to be told? (By a Momto Son?)

J: If mother doesn't tell, who will?

M: How to tell you? I came only after you !

J: Typical Mom ! Means- I came first and then you? Surprising? Isn'tit?

M: You won't understand. Be silent and sleep!

J: Come On ! First me ..! And then You ...!! (How can it be?) Plstell me the story ! Please !!

M: I told you. You won't understand! Many big people even could not.

J: Ok ! Then my Father can let me understand. Take me to Him, please.

M: ( Curtly) Stop this song of Father, Father. Your Father is Fatheronly for the name sake.In fact, I have to do every thing.

J: Does He not do anything?

M: What can He do? He is old, ancient, poor fellow (eternal) ! Thentotally actionless! Absolutely non-doer! Neither hands, nor legs,nor eyes, nor ears! Nothing in fact! Look Kid ! Whatever colour ,form etc of the world which you are seeing is my miracle, my form,my competence, my work ! Ok? Your Father has neither any form, norany beauty. What beauty He can impart to the world?

J: But all say that He is the real Creator. See Mom! Whatever is myFather, He is my Father! Ok? His insult...??

M: Insult! What insult? Whose insult? One who does not have anycaste or creed, any family or varna, any city or village- what canbe His respect or disrespect?

J: How bad He will feel, if He listens to what you are saying?

M: Even if He gets annoyed, what can He do? One who neither moves,nor walks, nor travels, nor laughs, nor cries, nor speaks, neitherany juice, nor any taste, nor any play !!! This entireexhibition/show I run, Dear Son !!

J But out there on Gate (of the circus) His name is written, O Mom !!

M: Ultimately you will take side of your Father only. Afterall youare His son!

J: O Mom of the Universe! Why did not you put name of yours on thefront gate of this Great Circus? ( The world)

M: How to put my name. This is the real trgedy. You won'tunderstand, Son. I, the creator and controller of uncountableuniverses can not do any thing by my name!! (Ramcharitmanas- 5/21/4)

J: Don't be sad and sorry Mom! What is the matter?

M: It is very secret, Son! If by seeing my banner outside the gate,if somebody wants to meet with me, he will be disappointed. Son!Please understand my pain. One is lazy ( does nothing), has noorgans, is actionless- those who want to search such (an element)person , they search Him merely by His name! (Ramcharitmanas-1/26/2). But to me, even when I am controlling entire sentient andinsentient world, if some body wants to search, CANNOT find! Cannotsearch.

J: Why not Mom?

M: (With tears in her eyes) Because, in reality, I don't exist. I amfalse. I am asat. I am non existent. My "not being" is my "being".Whatever is not- I am that. I am no-thing.

J: And whatever is there, that is who? Who is that?

M: He is your Father, Son!

J: (In mind, talking with himself only, Son thinks/says - Hats offto you Mom! When you don't exist, then this is the scene of theworld that even Lord Shiva , Brahma are afraid of you -Ramcharitmanas 7/71/8- had you existed "actually" Mom then.....)

O my No-thing Mom! When you don't even exist , then on whose poweryou run this circus called the world?

M: What to tell you, Son? I can tell you only this much that, ofWhose a mere flicker of eyebrow, I do rule the uncountableuniverses, I can't dare/ don't have courage to face Him. I do runthis circus only on His strength.

J : O My Unconquerable Mom! My hundreds of Pranaams to you. Blessme , O Mom! So that I may get my Father!!

While bowing and doing Pranaams to his mother, Jeeva becametranquilised and then in the background divine music played-

"MAAMEVA YA PRAPADYANTE, MAYAMETAM TARANTI YE "

(BG 7:14)

He was He only!

Namaste Jee.

Jee JeeShashikala--------------------------------Shri Hari-

My dear Sarphodji,

A few points to consider, I have said I have been touched by theDivine,(just one way of putting it), such Grace is life changing, Icould be lying or be mad,(I tell the truth), but I know just byreading the things fellow Sadhaks have written that I AM NOT ALONE.Some people come to Bhagwan with ease and joy others take the path offire so to speak, (the hard miles).

In the west there is an expression,'The Dark Night of The Soul', andyes! If it is known in the west it is most absolutely known in theIndian Traditions.(I think Arjuna's predicament reflects that),I willstay using the terminology to which I am most familiar.You say you are deserted, you are not deserted, the Brethren have notdeserted you, and in the Darkest Moment of the Soul, there is a lightshining, that light comes from 'That', which will wash away youtears, 'That' which will break your heart so that you can bemended. Your arguments are not solid dear Brother, not to those thathave felt the embrace of The Beloved. Your inflexibility, combinedwith your determined search, may well introduce you to 'The DarkNight...', the very ONE you rebuked the most, will be the one thatrescues you. I speak from experience not from books.

With Respect and Divine Love,

Mike Keenor

 

PRIOR POSTINGHari Om

If sadhaks can concentrate on giving short pointers / rationalewhich establishes the existence of Supreme Power it will help allin being definitive, have reference material and it will alsostrengthen faith. Ego, Intellect and Mind don't let you agree thateasily. And who knows who may need in the coming turbulent era ofKaliyug, that is lacking in faith and belief. Let us get united.

From discourses of Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj (Taat Shree), whom Ihave solely relied on for a number of years -

Every human being wants the following:

1) To "live for ever". This is desire for SAT (existence). Fear ofdeath is the indicator of that desire.2) To know every thing. No one wants to be unknowlegeable. This isdesire for CHIT (Knowledge).3) To be happy. No one wants to be unhappy. This is desire forANANDA.

Any doubt Mr Sarphod? Now if there is a desire then the element tofulfill that desire must also be there. There must be some one /some element which enables you to "live for ever", to be all knowingand to be ever blissful. Had such an element not existed, we wouldnot have had the desire for the same.

Paramatma is SAT-CHIT-ANANDA.(Sachchidananda)

Raam! Raam!! Raam!!!

To be continued.

Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B------------------------------

Dear Tabalchi ji,

According to J. Krishnamurti "modern so called educated" people wanta little bit of intellectual amusement and therefore they indulge inmeaningless discussions about God and such matters. God cannot bediscussed in this manner, because That Absolute Truth (giveIt/Her/Him any name) is beyond description.Your all the six questions are like the enquiries of a "fullstomach" tourist without an iota of appetite going through the menu,or reading it aloud with his co-friends. If you are really thirstyyou will not indulge in such childish questions about water, butwill try your best to drink it.

I suggest you read Uncommon Wisdom and other books by Dr Capra (aphysic scientist) who has quoted from our Sanskrit literature aboutGod, or read A Brief History of Time by Hawking Stephens (well knownexpert on dark hole and universe) to know the concept of time andspace. At least do go through some writings by Nobel laureate DrEdington (a scientist). Only then, you can be a little serious aboutexploring the great Absolute Truth. Become "jyan-vijyan-triptah" andonly then we can walk together on this spiritual quest.

Regards,Suresh C. Sharma------------------------

Sir,You are asking the oldest question ever being asked. See aroundyou, a sperm has made you upto approximately 6 feet. Who designedthis project and process. Your father and mother only are tools.Inquire within and get the answer.

surender syal--------------------------------

Mitro,Why has this God become famous as "HE" why not "she" or "IT"or "Nothing"? Today's generation will not believe in gibberishbakwaas . The paradox is every religion, every saint says that Godis ONE. But even within Hindus philosophy we see thousands of gods(many names and forms). If God is One then why all the differencesand the fights? How come? Ramchander Homma

------------------------------I agree with Luca Brasi that I should be fairly replied. I haveasked a lot of questions. I want proof/logic and I want to know Howis that Supreme. I want sample. I want rationale. My Begum Saahibaaalso told me that I am head breaker like your Shashikaljee told me.But I never agreed with her so far. I never admitted this version.I am not head or skull breaker. My name suggests that I am mindfixer. Any way how the name matters? I am what I am. I accept myparents because even if I dont remember my birth, they rememberthat. They know that I am their child. I can see them. I can feelthem. I can experience them. I can recognise them. That is why theyare my parents. Where is God? How can I accept God on the groundsthat since I did not know my parents at the time of birth and Iaccepted hence I should accept God also. Children are children. Theydont understand. But I am adult. I understand. My Begum Sahibaacould not satisfy me and hence she asked me to get in touch with youShe said you will satisfy me.I checked with her that I am notsatisfied even after, because I have MOST SOLID arguments, thenwhat? Even my father deserted me because he could not satisfy me.She said such situation will not arise. If I cant see , I cantaccept. Prove to me how one can accept without seeing or feeling orexperiencing or logic or rationale or basis. At least I should feelor experience. Even if my parents were dead at the time of birth,still I would accept that because how can I come without them onthis earth. What is your answer? Pratap or Vineet or Mike orShashikala. My Begum Sahibaa said few things regarding observationsof Vineet also. Please reply- Sadhaks of this selfproclaimed "Divine" site. Dont go by my name. Even my BegumSaahibaa complains regarding my name. What can I do regarding myname Jee?

Sarphod Tabalchi

PRIOR POSTINGHare Krishna

Sarphodji,

Not only can Parmatma be an individual he can also be a fish(Matsya-avatar), a tortoise (Kachchap-avatar), a pig (varaha-avatar),a half lion-half man (Narsimha-avatar) and what not!!!According to Gita, not only can a devotee see God but also know Himand also enter into Him.

Arjuna saidO universal form, O thousand-armed Lord, I wish to see You in Yourfour-armed form, with diadem on your head with club, wheel, conch andlotus flower in Your hands. I long to see You in that form. (11.46)

Sanjaya saidThe Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krishna, having spoken thus toArjuna, displayed His real four-armed form and at last showed Histwo-armed form, thus encouraging the fearful Arjuna. (11.50)

Lord Krishna said:My dear Arjuna, this form of Mine you are now seeing is verydifficultto behold. Even the demigods are ever seeking the opportunity to seethis form, which is so dear.Neither by the study of Vedas, nor by penance, nor by charity, noreven by rituals can I be seen in this form (with four-arms), as Youhave seen Me.O valiant Arjuna, through single-divided devotion, however, I can beseen in this form (with four-arms), known in essence and even enteredinto.My dear Arjuna, he who performs all his duties for Me, depends on Me,is devoted to Me, has no attachment, and is free from malice towardsall beings, reaches Me. (11.52-55)

Please give special attention to the last 2 verses. This will answeryour question of knowing and seeing God.

Yes, I have also read the same in Swamiji's book which your wife hasstated. I consider it to be true because I believe in Swamiji'swords.

Hare KrishnaVarun P. Paprunia------------------------------

Hari Om

No! Sarphodji. Those who want to learn should read carefully andshould learn also to be patient. All sadhaks upto now have givenexcellent observations. I have also given you logics/pointers andwillcontinue to give you till you get satisfied. I agree with Luca thatthere must be logics/rationale existing. It is another matter, as MrVineet stated, that they are pointless once you proceed ahead. Butstill questions are questions and your insistence , though, odd butstill should be respected. Your "Begum Sahibaa" appears to havedirected herself to peace. I wish you understood the hidden affectionin the in the message of Mike Keenor to you. Here are morelogics/pointers to you:

3. In life, we always find a higher person than ourselves. In everyfield a higher person than one is existing. See around you, you willfind this statement to be true. Even the President of USA can not say"I am the Highest". Always a better /higher person than you isexisting. Now where does this "highness" end. If there is sense ofhighness , then there must be an element which is "highest". God isthat element. God is the HIGHEST.

4. You always need some "shelter" to survive. In the childhood youneed shelter of parents, teacher, etc. Then of education, ability,wife, money, home, employers, what not. In old age, you need wife,children, stick, doctor, medicines, health etc Sujects change but notthe need for shelter.. If there is consistent need for shelter , thenthere must be an element existing of whose shelter is the ultimateshelter. Is not it Mr Sarphod. ( You should argue on such inprinciplepoints. Check up with you Begum Sahibaa.) ? If you are thirsty ,theremust be water existing on the planet. Now when you need always someshelter or other, then there must be an element which can bedescribedas " Highest Shelter available "! God is "PARAM ASHRAYA DATA" Giverof that shelter. If you take shelter of God, no other shelter will benecessary,

5. We always want to be perfect. There is no doubt on that. But thereis also no doubt regarding the fact that we err. In fact "to err ishuman" -this saying is prevalent on this planet from time immemorial.Now if there is a desire to become perfect then there must exist anelement which is most perfect. Did you ever hear that there was adifference of a fraction of a second even in timings of Sun rise andSun set? Is not everything moving to the perfection? Who can be moreperfect except God. God is the MOST PERFECT.

To be continued till you say "I am satisfied"

As regards your observation that "Nature" also creates/controls-answer is that whether you believe that nature has "knowledge"? Ifyes, then that nature is our God. In our religion ( I don't know yourreligion) SHAKTI is God also. But if according to you , the INERTNATURE has no knowledge, then you have to accept God. Can inertnaturetake care of so many souls, operate Law of Karma, provide food to somany creatures? If Yes- I don't mind calling that Nature to be God.After all it is a matter only of "terminology". If no then you mustaccept that IF THERE IS DESIRE / NEED IN YOU TO BE PERFECT OR TO TAKESHELTER OR TO SEEK HIGHNESS then there exists an element to fulfilthat desire. That element is called " GOD/ PARAMATMA" . Logical ?Doesit appeal to your logic Mr Sarphod? Check up with your Begum Sahibaaand come back. Your arguments shall exhaust, not our arguments- besure on this. After all you are on GT Site !

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B-------------------------------

Dear Sarphod:

Wonderful! I like your guts to put this question across!! I wasstartled to start with and even alarmed as I contemplated "thanksfor triggering the turbulence from which proceeds the peace asalways."

Son goes to father and asks, "Father, what is God?" Fatheranswered, "Whatever drives your life, whatever sustains your lifeand whatever absorbs your life is verily God my child. Think aboutIt!" The father was wise enough not to instruct what God is. The sonpromptly contemplates in what his father said and came back, "Father,fear drives all the lives. Fear sustains all the lives. Fear absorbsall the life. Therefore, fear should be the god." Fatherremarks, "Good job! Keep thinking." The son not knowing whether hisrevelation was conclusive or not continues to contemplate. Son comesback to father and declares, "Father, desire drives all the lives,desire sustains all the lives and desire absorbs all the lives.Therefore, the desire should be the god." Father remarks again, Goodjob! Keep thinking." The son does not feel the conclusiveappreciation regarding the god - is it fear or desire? He continuesto contemplate and realizes that, the happiness drives all thelives. Happiness sustains all the lives. And, happiness absorbs allthe lives. Therefore happiness should be the god.

Now he does not go back to his father as he has already felt thewisdom behind his father's remarks. God is not something that can betaught to, or preached to or transferred to anybody. It is thenotion within ... it is the imagination within ... it is thedeliberation within ... it is the understanding within ... it is theappreciation within ... IT IS THE PRESENCE WITHIN in its core. Theson, accepting the challenge from his father to use the body, sensesand mind blessed to him, continues to contemplate.

He has seen the driving force, sustenance strength and absorptionpower in the fear, in the desire as well as in the happiness. Hesees that the three divinities of creation, sustenance,andabsorption transcend the boundaries of his existential fears,desires and happiness altogether integrating the whole universe ofknowns as well as unknowns - manifested as well as unmanifested -mitigating the differences that were once prominent amongst thethree phases of life - fear, desire and happiness.

Then starts another dilemma - who is the god amongst these threedivinites that seem to determine what life is? Driving Force orSustenance Strength or Absorption Power? Again, he approaches hisfather, the wisdom established within to contemplate on the dilemma.

The driving force comes first to claim the unclaimed post of TheGod. On ruthless examination, the driving force starts wonderingaloud that it itself should have been driven by something else. Thenew driving force wonders the same and so on. The driving force digsup an infinite legacy of its own kind beneath lost in the oblivionof the past. It returns back in frustration not withstanding whatthe driving force could really be.

The absorption power jumps in next to claim the still unclaimed postof The God. Again, the wisdom starts the same gruelling scrutiny.The power under sharp vigilence starts whithering away to wonder ifit absorbs everything there should be something to absorb itself.The new absorbing power wonders the same way and so on. Theabsorption power piles up an infinite heirarchy of its own kindabove lost in the oblivion of the future. It returns back infrustration not withstanding what the absorption power could everbe.

The empty throne is still awaiting to be filled. The sustenancestrength walks to claim the post in confidence. The valiant wisdomdoes its job with no resistance subjecting the life sustenancepower in suspension of its examination. The sustencance strengthwhich provides strength to all the life around starts wondering whatis the source of its own strength and sustenance. The new source ofthe strength resounds the same wonder what could be the source ofstrength. The sustenance strength keeps jumping from on fold toanother all around the universe that is within its control to seekitself folding itself in infinitude lost in the vast presence. Itreturns back in frustration not withstanding what the sustenancestrength could ever be.

Seeing the crest-fallen champions of life not realizing their owntrue nature around, the throne of The God starts fading intosilence. The wisdom starts wondering in itself. Is it not thedriving force as well as the sustenance strength as well as theabsorption power all the time all around? Suddenly, the demarkationbetween the three divinities that was once so thick and opaquestarts giving away to reveal the force, strength and power ofcreation, sustenance and absorption in itself and hence in everything that is perceieved ever.

The realized wisdom gets back and declares. Never ever ignore yourfears. Never ever ignore your desires. Never ever ignore yourhappiness. Ever be with your fears, desires and happiness as youare. Then you see the unison amongst your fears, desires and joysand hence in all your emotions, relations and existence within aswell as around. Then you see all the boundaries separating yournotions dissolve in the very wisdom where you dwell upon. Being whatyou are in spite of your apparent variances of life naturallytranscends all the barriers built by your cognition acrosseverything to reveal THE ONE everywhere and everywhence. Then thevery post of God does not appear to be real anymore which seemed themost troublesome question to start with.

God remains evasive till you drift away from what you are in vainsearching whatever IT could be! Therefore, my dear friend, betterpause in your frenzy search and look around and look within … bewhat you are. Then God is everything … not just a notion ... notjust a faith ... not just a doubt ... but, everything ... EVERYTHINGWITH NO EXCEPTION. If you remain what you are, IT is all-inclusive.If you attempt to search for it, IT becomes all-exclusive. In otherwords, IT is EVERYTHING in your presence; and IT is NOTHING in yourperception.

Respects.

Naga Narayana--------------------------------Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!Let us address one aspect of Tabalchiji's issues with responses ofsadhakas received so far!To be able to see God, one needs to recognize God upon seeinganything, right? If one says I don't see God, one is looking for whatone "thinks" God is in whatever one is looking at. For God to be"that" it will be very very limiting to God, because what we think isso limited even if it is some grand image of God. That is notlogical, right?Now when Swamiji says Goenkaji and Poddarji had darshana of God, whatdoes it mean?It means the deep understanding of what God is and subsequentrealization that "my God, there is nothing else but only God IS inthe disguise of the Cosmos" that sees through that individual.The individual's vision has changed entirely, where he/she sawobjects of the world before, now he sees only Divinity in the sameforms. It is our experience that what we believe out there, we tendto see only that through our being closed minded. Similarly when weunderstand God, this "Understanding" opens up the very mind who seesGod everywhere, individual is merely a channel God is using.Other aspects of issues will see later....Namaskar............Pratap Bhatt

-------------------------Shree Hari-

Sarphodji,

Great! You are still questioning brilliant!I have read the responses from our brethren, great beauty full ofdivine love. But I will stick to the hared nosed roll,(look past itdear friend).If someone asked me to show her an oak tree, and I gave her an acorn,what would she say I wonder? Of course the blueprint for the wholetree is in the acorn, one also one wonders, did the first oak treehave an acorn or the first acorn have an oak tree?Question 6 if resolved is the platform upon which all the otherquestion can be answered it seems to me.I can only tell you how I came to be touched be The Divine, that wasby my search into paradoxes, like the universe, like the acorn.I once mentioned a man I met in unusual circumstance. It was about3amin a large air traffic control room, very few controllers in the roomat that time. I was waiting to get clearance to work on a console(todo annual technical checks). There across the room was thiscontroller, He had his headset on,(with a long lead), he wasperforming asanas, (within the restriction), "trying to stay awake?"Iasked, "no he boomed", we started to talk. We had 'Much' in common,wedeveloped a dialog from then on , it was he who suggested I readBhagavad Gita,(I humbly suggest you do also).He once said to me with his booming humorous voice, "Mike if peoplecould her us they would think we're 'Lunatics'.What we had in common at the root, was our hunger for the truth, andthe courage, 'to ride the tiger".We were an unlikely pair from a world view, he was a Sri Lankan, meanAnglo Celt, especially if one could here us talking, but we werebrothers of the spirit.There is much I could talk of, but I must bow to the respectedmoderator.

With Respect and Divine Love,

Mike Keenor-Mr Sarphod ! So you are a male as well as married ! Very good Jee !

It is a good habit to act in accordance with advice your Begum. Howdid she leave you alone? Do you have books of Swamiji RamsukhdasjiMaharaj at your home? Your “Begum†had those books according toyou.Did you read them? Or your Begum only reads them? By the way didyou ever think about or did you ever have a desire to smell “flowerof sky†? Why did you not think about flower of sky or desired tosmell it ? Reply. This is a question to you. Also reply if you alwaysbelieve only after “seeing†?

Let us know as to how you can get satisfied according to you?. Whatmethodology suits your mind.? How do you generally feel regardingthis world,mind, intellect, body etc etc ? How according to you suchabig world is operating ? Do you think there are some laws governingthis world? Keep also giving your observations , counter arguments onEACH AND EVERY response which is given to you. Otherwise how will weknow whether the cure has taken place? Understood? You can consultyour Begum also before replying to my queries. Always tell us whatyour Begum told you and what is your own observation. Why don’t youtell your Begum also to become member and start Satsanga? Will thatnot be better? What is her kind name, Jee?

Namaste Jee.

Jee JeeShashikalaDear Sadhakas, Namaste!Another aspect of issues raised by Tabalchiji can be answered basedonwhat sadhakas already have echoed in their responses.The most important thing is to know that God is not "something","somewhere" and "some times". It is at the core of our being, anintimate experience which is The Knowingness without anything known.In otherwords, God cannot be known as another limited object,nevertheless, is known as "knowingness" in us by virtue of justbeing.For example, if someone were to ask you, can you show me Love, Peace,Compassion, Beauty, Goodness etc "out there"? You cann't! They areexperiences within us that we attribute to things/situations etcoutside which may have triggered them. Some philosopher rightly said"From the beginning, not a thing is!" Please, please, see the truthofthis. We are connected to the world only through Being Conscious ofsomething or other which we conceptualize as subjectexperiencer(mind-body), and objects experienced, both thought asseparate. Such division is not experiential.Just as these experiences are not seen "out there", but are truelyhappening in our consciousness, God cannot be seen, as separate fromConsciousness.Sun, for example, is nothing but the experience of light and heat,conceptualized as "Sun" out there, for practical purpose. This isalsotrue for all apparant objects of the world.God or Consciousness or Atman, are also such conceptual words of themost intimate Wordless Experience! They are good pointers though!When people engage in services to help others who are victims ofdisasters, diseases, violence, wars, terrorism etc etc who motivatestheir actions? Unconditional Love and Goodness of the heart! Peoplewho help to preserve natural environment, forests, animals, etc etcare also inspired by the same Love and Goodness!Can we not call Unconditional Love and Goodness of the heart God?Are those who bring such disasters to "apparant others" also God, ifall is God?They are also, yes, but unfortunately "they" have not understood yetthat they are!In God's world, only God exists playing "others", so who does what towhom?Try doing evil acts after understanding deep within that all of us,nature included, together, not individually, are God! One cannot!

Namaskar...........Pratap Bhatt

-PRIOR POSITINGDear Sadhak,Excellent explanation has been given by sadhak Pratapji....Excellent!If the parents donot know GOD how can they teach the kids?Swamiji says if something is lying in darkness we can take a deepakwith us to see it but to see a deepak(lamp) we donot need anotherdeepak. Same way the objects of this whole worlds can beseen/experienced through the "SELF" but to know this SELF we donotneed anything from the world( mind/body/intellect etc.) Only SELFknows it SELF.1. Where is God I have never seen Him?He is not HE, He is "I". When we can see/know who am I we cansee/know who is God.Indeed, You alone know Yourself by Your own potencies, O origin ofall, Lord of all beings, God of gods, O Supreme Person, Lord of theuniverse! Ch10:152. Who has seen Him?All realized people have known HIM.Some claim that they have seenHIM too.Swami Vivekananda asked this question to everyone he met-Have youseen God ? All answers negative except Ramkrishna Paramhansa.He said-"Yes I have seen God as clearly as I am seeing you right now."Listening to this Narendra became his disciple.3. How is He?With a single fragment of Myself I pervade and support this entireuniverse.Ch10:424. If I dont know how do I accept?Then go ahead follow the path shown to us by Swamiji or any realizedsoul, and know Him first, then accept.5. God is a term coined by elders to put moral shackles over us sothat we may indulge in goodness.What's wrong with that ? Accept God ,be righteous and be Arjuna ordonot accept Him, be Duryodhana - choice is yours.6. There has to be some basis for his existence? What are the logicswhich point towards the existence of God? From where to pick thethread?Start with meditation and Gita. Follow the path shown by Him in Gita-Karma Yoga, Gyaan Yoga or Bhakti Yoga. Establish yr self in YOGA.....

No one can force any one to believe. Kids learn by imitation. Leadyr own life according to Dharma,and kids will pick it up.Beforegiving them tatva Gyaan(absolute knowledge),its better to sit withthem and watch Ramayana, Krishna, Mahabharata and let them learn bythe character of our Sagun Sakaar Bhagwaan(God with Forms). If theycan learn from Rama or Krishna, they will be on right path and willget their realization at their own speed.with lots of Love,a sadhikaSadhna Karigar

--------------------------------Jai Hanuman

Oye What a question Jee!!. As good as the name of thequestioner!! "Sarphod" in Hindi means skull breaker ! "Tablachi"means he who plays treble. Unique Jee !! Namaste Sarphodji !!Welcome Jee ! There is music everywhere ! Who kept such a classicname Jee ? Father? OK, pick the thread from father only.

How do I accept if I don't know? Accept just as you accepted someone to be your father without knowing anything about him. Don't sayplease- "that children now a days need more than belief to accept".That, I am afraid, is not as classic a statement as is even yourkind name. Fact is that children practice only belief and solidbelief. They are masters of belief - and teachers of entire humanityon this subject of belief. Poor adults need proof. What kind ofproof was solicited by you in accepting some one to be your fatheror some name to be mine or for that purpose by "the children of nowa days"- say son of Sarphod Tablachi, if any ??

Do you "know" as to who is your father and who is your mother? Whatproof or rationale you can give to support your acceptance of Mr Xas your father?

You asked "from where to pick the thread". I reply to you that youpick the thread from yourself and your Dear Father. Come On !

Reply now! Argue !!

Namaste Jee

Jee JeeShashikala-------------------------------Mr.Pratapji Bhatt has explained the existance of God beautifully.Itis very much in sync with Sri Sri Paramhansa Yogananda's explanationin his books-"Autobiography of a yogi" and "Man's eternal quest"which i have read. Also the story quoted by mahalaksmiji perfectlydescribes how to know God.He is all knowing and yet unknown.He isthe Devine Intelligence that governs all that is known to us.God isindescribebable.He can only be felt in the depths of a pure soul.Ami Chhowala

--------------------------------I still remain unsatisfied in this "divine" forum. How and whyParamatma can not be an individual ? Is there nothing in yourscriptures like Gita which says that a devotee can also "see" God ?My Begum Sahiba states that she read from a book of your SwamiRamsukhdasji that Jai Dayal Goenka and Hanuman Poddarhad "darshanas" of God. Was His statement right or your referenceof good Swami is right? Why do you say that God can not be known?How then the desire to know can be fulfilled? Whether I need aninstruction manual or not is not the focal point, in fact, to befair to me, answer to my questions in simple and convincing manneris focal point! None of the "sadhaks" are convincing so far. Iasked from where to pick the thread? The responses are unclear andincomplete.

Mr Mike ! Incomplete, was your answer. If you believe you were likeme in the past, then make me like you in the present. Is that not adivine task? Is that not the role of this forum? Logic must exist.Pointers must be there. Knowledge cant be beyond itself. What elsewe are doing at present except meeting?

Mr Vyas - When Your so called " Nature" made oceans, Sun Moon etcand when Nature is supreme then where is the question of God? Whycant Fire/ Ocean/etc are called God ? If yes, then how God isbeyond knowledge? How God can not be seen as stated by Mr PratapBhatt or by Vineet Sarvottam ?

"Sadhaks" - My Begum Sahibaa directed me to you people to satisfymy knowledge quest ! I expected better as I am hungry for answers.

Sarphod Tabalchi--------------------------------Such a question can only arise from those who consider gross body asreal self and not the outer sheath of immortal "real self" whichcontains the apriori knowledge.

They see God every day but do not recognise THEE. The Universal Godis Tri-Ani-Pada- three bodies in One i.e. gross, subtle and divine.Since the entire Brahamad is God, His gross body consists of "Sunand Moon His eyes, firmament his middle body and earth as His Feet"and His Head is in Heaven. Thus entire Brahmand is God. Most of thepeople who find gross body as real, want to imagine and visulaiseGod as a human being forgetting that human beings who live on thisearth are "Thy" tiny living cells. We have several billions livingcells in our gross body, can any living cell of our body tell who weare?

But those who find human soul as "real self" have no difficulty inknowing God. His divine body is the Omniscient Supreme Soul(Parmatma) and His subtle body "Mahadeva" is omnipotent SupremeSpirit prevalent in all animate and inanimate life/things. Hisspirit is found in Shuniya (cosmic void) of all kind of matterconsisting of atoms with unsuspected vitality. Because of His spiritprevalent in shuniya, matter is not inert.

Since Man is born in the image of God, human beings are also tri-ani-pada. Immortal soul resides in our divine body, spirit resides inour subtle body and gross instruments in our material body. Thosewho consider material gross body as the real self will always finddifficult to know formless and ineffable universal God.

Incidentally formeless and ineffable Universal God is Brahma- namederived from Brahmand and other gods in human form are Iswaras.Iswaras are not the gods of entire mankind.with regards,Prem Sabhlok

--------------------------------Dear sarphod,

God is in nature,he can only be felt.His power is dwellingeverywhere in the nature in the form of cosmic vibratioins .If wecan tune our mind with the same frequency by way of sadhana we canfeel the godliness of the nature.How a sperm can create a body withlife is the proof of the supernatural power of the god. So far weare only establishing the things which are existing, but we areunable to establish about the source of the existence.Our ultimate goal our of life is to reuntite ourselves with thenature from where we have come.Nothing extra to be thought aboutgod. Living close to the nature is living near god. But the sensesattached to our body always act against our realisationprocess.controling the senses is the biggest challenge of our life.Let us teach our children about righteous way of living ,thinknaturally and live naturally.

with regardsRamana kothuri

------------------The questions of Mr Sarphod Tabalchi are basic questions. I toodont believe that the Supreme Power would not leave any pointers orlogics of His existence. From where to pick the thread ? I dontagree with Mr Sarvottam that God can not be seen by His belovedones.. There has to be nothing which is beyond the powers ofSupreme. One principle came from Mike's narration and Mr Vyas'message that before "big bang" too something existed or that ifthere is creation then there must be a creator. But how that isexclusive prorogative of God only ? Creativity is universal symptomand authority. Spiders are also creators as per Mike Keenor. Pleaseelaborate with reference to Sarphod's questions. What about fiveelements? Are they creators? Are not these elements playing thetransformation game? I think more serious and direct discussions arewarranted on the subject, not just belief stricken answers. Firstthe logics/rationales have to be exhausted.

Luca Brasi----------------------------

Jai Kali Mata

What is meant by "No one knows about time!!!" Also, I am unclear asto how this is relevant to the questions asked? Is this idea abouttime, emanated out of teachings of Shraddheya Swamiji referred byhim? Kindly clarify !

Bandook Singh

--------------------------------PRIOR POSTING

RESUBMITTED WITH SOME CORRECTIONS

Shree HariRam Ram

You have asked -

1) Where is God, I have never seen Him?Answer: Paramatma is not an individual that you or any one cansimply see. Existence - IS-ness (sattaa maatre) has been given thename Paramatma. Otherwise there is no name for that Existence or allNames are only Paramatma's (Supreme Consciousness's) Names.

2) Who has seen Him?Answer: Paramatma has not been seen by anyone to date and in futuretoo Paramatma will not be ever seen. Shraddhey Swamiji has statedthat Paramatma can be believed, not known, nor seen. Beyond thiswhatever anyone says, is questionable.

3) How is He?Answer: How, where, when, what, why, such questions regardingParmatma are pointless. That which cannot be known, it cannot bedescribed at all.

4) What are you able to know "Time" (samay). This question has beenasked regarding time (whose beginning and end is unknown to us). Itis not a question about the watch or the interval. It is not onlyyou, but no one understands anything about "time". They can saynothing about time. Then why do you believe in time? Similarlybelieve and accept Paramatma, it will be nothing but gain.

5) This same work is also performed by men through establishment oflaws. Just as all do not believe in the law, similarly, everyonecontinues to speak and share for correcting one's foolishness, andaccording to one's own convenience and conformance giving thattattva a "form". You too can speak about the same as well.

6) 'Existence' itself is 'Paramaatmaa'. Where can any supportivearguments and evidence exist to establish the existenceof 'Existence' (named Paramaatmaa)? Then where is one to get thesupport of this essential elemental belief 'ASTITTVA'? Reasoning-deliberation-discussion (tark), proof-evidence (pramaan) can be ofthat thing which we know. But Paramatma is not known and cannot everbe known, then this reasoning and seeking evidence is not inconformance to that reasoning.

7) Do you want Paramatma? or do you want an instruction manual oran aphorism (sutra) to grab hold of Paramatma? Don't get caught upin the vicious cycle of trying to find an instruction manual.Leaving the search, become engaged in "Chup Saadhan" (EffortlessAwareness, Discipline of Silence). All quest, and inquiry will bequietened, will become still.

Please kindly forgive any limitations in the expression / wordsused.

Vineet Sarvottam--------------------------

Hari Om

How to know what is beyond knowledge - is the moot question.

Logic/Rationale !! Proof !!! Sample !! Consider the following:

1 .Whatever we are able to see on this earth there is always acreator /manufacturer - be it an allpin, pen, table, house, machine,house, bed, watch, pen, paper, cloth or aircraft. Anything visible.Then there should be creator of oceans, fire, air, mountains, earth,Sun. Moon, stars also !

God is the creator of all. - CREATOR

2. Whatever thing which moves , be it car, aircraft, bicycle,machine, computer, - there is always a controller thereof. Earthalso moves. Sun/Moon also move. Oceans remain in their limits. Sunrises and sets perfectly without fail. There must be a controller ofthem also!

God is the controller of all- CONTROLLER

Q BUT A HUMAN BEING ALSO CREATES ! WHAT IS SO IMPORTANT ABOUT IT ?

Ans A human being cannot "create" anything! It is only "nature"which creates! You can only change the shape thereof. You can covertgold into ornaments or iron into sword or utensil, but you can'tcreate gold or iron ! Only nature provides that. You can mix two ormore elements, formulate, change shape only. You can create . Youcan "discover" only.

To be continued.

Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B-------------------------Kindly read bertrand russelAranha Roy

---------------------------Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!Let us continue further on the subject and build on what sadhakashave said.Please, it may sound too intellectual, but it is not! It may humbleus!Consider this: If we need to know/study any object, the object hasto exist inthe first place.Even if we cannot know the object, we always know it exists. Thisknowing of anexistence is prior to the knowledge of its nature, attributes,function etc.The Universe is a collection of objects, and can be said to be oneExistencefundamentally. Individual objects within it are individualexistences localizedin space and time over which they exist, and change to other forms,continuingthe existences.When we say Universe we mean the Existence only. Even the wordUniverse pointsto the Existence first. How do we know such Existence itself? Onlyby beingaware/cognizant of it, no other way. So the Existence is awarenessof Existence.To see what is prior to

 

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Shree Hari Ram Ram Dear Sadhaks, NAMASKAR! In light of recent feedback... lengthy messages will be shortened at the discretion of the moderators. We appreciate your attention to this. Thank you, From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram -------------------------My question is that how to prove that there exists a super naturalpower called "God" ? At least how to explain that. How to correlateHis existence with the character of the world? Children now a daysneed more than belief to accept. Can there be any way vide which wecan establish that God exists. If some body says say :1. Where is God I have never seen Him?2. Who has seen Him?3. How is He?4. If I dont know how do I accept?5. God is a term coined by elders to put moral shackles over us sothat we may indulge in goodness.6. There has to be some basis for his existence? What are the logicswhich point towards the existence of God? From where to pick thethread?Sarphod TabalchiNEW POSTINGDo you exist? If so, God also exists. It is as simple. What is the

proof that God exists? So, what is the proof that you exist? The proof

that you exist is that you are thinking, you are moving, you are

talking, etc. The proof that God exists is that the whole creation is

moving according to a preplanned scheme, according to preordained,

undisputed and unwritten law of Nature. Love and Love alone.....P. Gopi Krishna

-----------Hari OmThe following

statement by Narinderji reflects that meditation is a direct method of

Realisation while Karma Yoga is a longer method , which step by step

first leads to "purification of soul".... From the point of view of

Gita, discourses of Swamiji , and even technically this statement can

not be said to be correct. In fact exactly reverse is the case.

Meditation is a step by step long method of Realisation and first you

have to "purify the antahkarana" - Yogah chittavritti nirodham -

Patanjaliji Maharaj. In Karma Yoga the realisation is faster, easier

and DIRECT. Meditation is not direct method as it takes shelter of

inert first and for a long time. In the end, meditator MUST disconnect

with inert. Karma Yogi straight away disconnects inert and in fact

applies inert unto inert, and being sentient remains behind- pure and

lone !! He may ask Qs on this to get further clarity. Narinderji may

also note that "soul" does not require any purification- it is ever

pure ( chetan... Amal (flawless)... Sahaj Sukhrashi) ! In Meditation

the "antahkarana" is purified and in Karma yoga , the "ego" is purified

to renounce "bhoktaship" (results of karmas) and resolve not to "do"

anything for "self" !! Narinderji however may clarify as to who

according to him may do meditation as he believes this "direct" method

is not open to all humans."BUT ............ .........

.... there is a catch ............ .. this method of the Direct Inquiry

is not for all......... .. Karmayoga is the Way for the majority to

move into higher steps of purification of the self"Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B

------------------------------Narain ! Narain !!

 

The problem with us is that we "know" but do not "admit". We know

that who ever is born shall die. But we dont admit, when some one near

and dear dies, we start crying. The sentiments of poor Shrivastava are

like that only.. The existence of his kind self is in itself the proof

of the existence of Paramatma. What kind of proof he can give to

justify that he himself exists? Brother Mike ! Enjoy Divine Leela !!

DEKHO NIRPAKH HOY TAMAASHA ( One should witness the worldly play

remaining impartial) ! How much a person thinks, while he continues to

be proverbially a tiny speck in the ocean ? The independence has been

given to a human by Paramatma, and He does not object to His children

being brat and disobedient. He shall not. But He continues giving

money, wealth, health, time, wife, children, air, water, food etc etc

- everything even to His enemies. Isnt it His kindness? The fact is

that God is "just" with reference to the worldly

people. He is "disintertested" with reference to Jnanis. He is "kind"

(dayaalu) with reference to the devotees (bhaktas). He is all, He is

none ! Is there no love in the slap of mother? He has ordinary

inclination ( I repeat "ordinary") for welfare of all of us. His not

disturbing our independence is in itself a sign of His kindness,

justice and disinterestedness. But when it comes to Bhaktas and those

who surrender to Him, He takes their full responsibility. Then He

becomes "specially inclined" to save them from ocean of birth and

death. But generally, He does not stop anyone to even abuse Him, break

His temples, disrespect Him and deny His existence. But the moment some

one troubles His devotees, He becomes different.

 

Narain ! Narain !!

 

Naarad N Maharishi---------Jai HanumanYou are

right, Brother Mike! I also guess so !! The object of satsanga is also

sometimes to suppurate a boil, so that it may be removed by roots. Once

object is in focus, methodology is secondary. I liked your example of

"wrestling with Him".Namaste JeeJee JeeShashikala

---------------------------Shree Krishna

 

Consider the following:

 

Your child is having high fever.You take him to a doctor. Doctor

readies the injection and child cries. Now you as father are having

same characteristics vis a vis the child as Naaradji stated are the

characteristics of ' Beloved Paramatma' viz: 1. All knowing 2 All

powerful and 3 the Kindest. You know why child is crying. He does not

want the pain of injection touching his skin. You are powerful too. You

can say to Doctor, sorry. Without your consent doctor will not give

injection to the child. Where is the doubt in your kindness ? But

forgetting all three, you hold the hand of child firmly, ignore his

cries, and let the doctor give the injection. Why ? Because you know in

that sorrow, real pleasure for child is hidden. Similarly, Dear

Sadhaks, the laws of Paramatma operate. There is no sorrow existing in

the world. In sorrows your long term welfare is concealed. A child or

idiot does not understand that. A child understands the language of

love,

but does not understand language of punishment. But an intelligent

child understands language of punishment also.

 

Consider the following example:

 

Your child is in a school. He makes some mistake. Now whenever

children make mistakes, the teachers punish them. I remember my teacher

used to put pencil between my finger spaces of hand and squeez it

hard. Sometimes teachers make you stand outside or on bench. It happens

with students not seldom. But an intelligent child never

complains regarding the punishment given to him by teachers when he

comes home. Why? Because he knows that punishment given to him by

teachers was for his welfare and that he made a mistake.

 

This is how Paramatma and the devotees of Paramatma conduct in

this DUKHALAYAM, O Divine Sadhaks !! So which kind of child you are Mr

P Shrivastava? Certainly you are child of Paramatma , irrespective of

whether you admit that or not. What kind of acknowledgement an infant

does to the kindness of Mother? He cries even when he is in the lap of

her mother !! Hence every child is often called stupid.

 

Swami Rupesh Kumar-Shree Hari-Dear Srivastava,I looked up Schopenhauer in the Wikipedia, and what I found was a philosopher,who had some ideas that wove in and out of Buddhist/Hindu principles.Ex Wikipedia:'For Schopenhauer, human desire was futile, illogical, directionless, and, byextension, so was all human action in the world. The Will to Schopenhauer is ametaphysical existence which controls not only the actions of intelligentagents, but physical phenomena..'You see he was into the metaphysical. Was he out of agreement with such thingsas siddha powers? I can't see how.He did not like Abrahamic religions, from what I can see. But he had a highregard for Buddhist thought and the Upanishads.I have for a long time regarded religion, in general, as like roads to adestination. Eventually all these roads merge into a super highway, once on thehighway looking back you can see all paths were true. Trouble is when on theselesser roads, one can easily believe your road is the only road toGlory/Moksha/Enlightenment/Heaven/The Kingdom/Liberation/The Tao/......I think you require another ally other than Schopenhauer, if you want to teardown the concept of the Divine.I sense you are very angry, but with whom?With Respect and Divine Love,Mike (Keenor)-------------------------------Dear Srivastava ji,

“I am shocked to see educated people attach more weight to blind faith and vulgar superstition ..â€

While

appreciating your goodwill for the masses by advocating the modern

scientific achievements, I will like to draw your attention to many

scientists’ views about God.

(1) In his classic “Brief History of Timeâ€, Stephen W. Hawkin talks of God. May I add that he is today occupying the ‘chair’ (Peeth) which was once occupied by Sir Newton.

(2)

Dr Albert Einstein’s saying â€" “Science without religion is blind, and

religion without science is lame†(or the otherwise is also true).

(3)

Dr Albert Einstein’s saying â€" “The whole universe is an illusion,

albeit of persistent nature†(He was referring to our sensory illusion).

(4) I can quote a great deal from scientific masterpieces by Fitzgerald

Capra (Uncommon Wisdom and other books) â€" mentioning with great

reverence about the absolute truth, evening quoting from Sanskrit

scriptures. His essence is what Lord says in the Gita (10:8) “AHAM SARVASYA PRABHAVO MATTAH SARVAM PRAVARTATE / ITI MATWA

BHAJANTE MAAM BUDDHA BHAVASAMANVITAH†(I am the Source of All; from Me

everything evolves; understanding thus, the ‘wise’ endowed with ‘loving

consciousness’, always worship Me).

(5) Not admitting but supposing that your arguments are okay, let me tell you that even the scientists opine that ‘contradictory is complementary’ (if my memory is right Neil Bohr used to quote this line).

(6) Even our own contemporary and very much alive, Dr Deepak Chopra has been talking and writing profusely about our spiritualism.I was reading some Indian Scripture in which there was mention of "the God who brings rain and the demons that withhold it"

Please

read Gita and It does not mention such superstitions. This is the

educated persons’ unanimous conclusion that the Gita is the most

scientific pointer to God. Even Arthur Shopenhouver was influenced by

this holy book. You have very kindly recommended us to

read him; well, I have read him and also another German

Poet-philosopher Fredrich Nietzshe whose saying ‘God is dead’

influenced and created Hitler. May I now request you to read another

German author (Novel laureate) Herman Hesse (his master piece

Siddharth).

In

short, Bhagwan Bhaskar Adiguru Shankar is considered to the most

argumentative philosopher and seer the world has so far produced

(without any bias on my part, Sir) and his ‘Shankari Bhasya’ on the

Gita is considered to be the most authentic commentary till now. Please read it. Was he superstitious? What do you think the great scientists I have quoted above were/are also superstitious.

Having

said all this, let me hurry to add that I very much appreciate your

‘concern’ for the welfare of the human race. This indicates that your

are also involved in ‘Sarvabhoot Hiteratah’ (involved in the welfare of

all). And believe me, you are also advocating God, though in a

different manner. Yes, God is all-inclusive and you are also within His

fold.

Kind regards,

Suresh C. Sharma-PRIOR POSTINGWHO IS ASKING THIS QUESTION?WHO WANTS TO KNOW?DARE AND HAVE COURAGE TO KNOW HIM FIRST.........ANSWER TO ALL QUESTIONS LIES THERE..... ENCOUNTER THE "SELF"....KNOWING SELF LEADS TO KNOWING GOD.....IT IS SIMPLE..... Sushil Jain----Shree Hari-When I saw this post re-emerge, originally from Sarphod Tabalchi, and he hadeveryone spinning on the spot. I said to myself, No way, I have been there! ButI decided, 'That hell has frozen over'.Talking of Hell, that advocate of the Devil has re-emerged in the guise of P Srivastava.Straight away I have noticed something:The Patriarch Jacob wrestled with GOD all night long, God then finished the fight by putting Jacobs hip out of joint, could have obliterated Jacob, but just I minor wound. Interesting to note that Jacob did not realize who he was wrestling with. Now this is allegorical, but universal at that level. Some Sadhaks seem angry, I do not know why because you see, these beloved souls, are witnessing you wrestling with Bhagwan. And if you keep wrestling, and don't run away, HE, 'The Beloved', will break your heart and tear you down, with Love,and Grace.How do I know this? You work it out.Coming to science and logic, there is a problem, regardless of scientific principles, modern science is Christocentric, (I think I have just invented a word), there is an older ancient knowledge, one simple example is the solar system, understood in India approximately 1500 years (at least), before being understood in the West, and it was declared a heresy. Oh! and re-incarnationdeclared a heresy 500 years after Christ within Christendom, now the scientist are talking about cellular memory, (they will get there just give them time). These are early times with this debate with you, keep debating, and with Divine Grace, you will understand the things that science can't, just think how wonderful that would be!With Respect and Divine Love,Mike (Keenor).------------Dear Sadak Sarphod Tabalchi & other sadaks,This is what you said,"" God is a term coined by elders to put moral shackles over us so that we may indulge in goodness."" Presume you are correct, then indulge goodness total pure goodness. God surely illuminates HIMSELF to you, like in the case of Vivekanadha who asked similar questions to Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa. Do you know one truth that you will surely know God existence faster than me. Your craving is higher to see God. Where as I think I know about God and making myself fool by giving all descriptions and sastras. Sinners are potential saints- the proverb. Great men like Tukaram, Chaitaniya Maha Prabu when someone pointed mistake (Not really mistake) they readily accepted and tried to change for no fault of their`s. They are Sub Zero in Ego. Example: When Kasi Pandit critisied Tukaram Abang for no sanskrit value in it and ordered to be thrown in river colse by, Turaram accepted and threw the scripts in river. But to surprise of all, the total abang came in opposite direction running water to Tukaram. Pandit body statred itchy and he fell at feet of Tukaram. Sadaks dont change even to pronounce God name as requested, but call it Bavana is important. For sake of God I should change my habbit and try when some one tells me something. By doing so I loose Ego and get Bagavan Sankalp. Zero ego. Get that Egoless God comes to you.No man on earth can describe GOD says Chandokiya Upnashid and Vedas. Vedas may say how water came, fire came etc but it says one can establish in GOD only by Gyana.What efforts did Ajaamilan do? Srimath Bagavatyh clearly says he called Narayana his son. Earnestly studing further it says, Ajamilan was given Gyana first by Vishnu Doots. Anjamilan hearing Vishnu Doots speach given to Yama Doots, his heart felt tears and utmost repentance by thinking that for calling his son Narayana if this grace could flow, what it would be if Narayana was thought during life.God benovolence making you to ask those questions. Present days there people asking so many things and matters except GOD.Jai Sri KrishnaB.Sathyanarayan-------------------------------ALL WORDS REMAIN WORDS, my friends , till the One word blossoms in the self to merge into the Silence that is God ............. and then ................ all is known ............ and this knowing has to become your knowing ................ if you today feel separate from the Self that you are .............. you are the ultimate proof of your own being ............ whatever you feel you are ! even though the aspirant , the means, and the sadhya are ONE , not-two ! Have always been so. Will ever be so ; even so........................ the blossomimg of the One Word , the silent sound of Aum, the unheard melody ever resounding in the self, is the Gift recieved from the Self , when the self is willing to die to the self ................ if the aspirant wants the direct experience of the Self ..................... meditation is the way. .................... meditate, meditate, meditate ............. watch the ' doings' of the self in you .............. be a witness, be a watcher , and wait ................... just wait .................. doing nothing ............. just watch, with the focus of your watching, " who in me is the watcher ? who am I ?" this is the shortest way ........... such is the experience and advice of all the knowers of Silence .............. including Ramanna Maharishi. Swami Ramsukhdas jee means the same , when he speaks of ' self-remembrance'...................... pleaae meditate on Swami Ramsukhdasjee's words.............. BUT ........................ there is a catch .............. this method of the Direct Inquiry is not for all........... Karamyoga is the Way for the majority to move into higher steps of purification of the self .......... each person has to strive to ' understand' what he is at the present moment now. A live Guru is the greatest help, if you cannot yourself become aware of what you are NOW , were you stand on this Path of spiritual seeking, this moment . it is narinder, who is presently deluded... it is nari, who is presently feeling the separation from the Self...... it is he , who has to become free from the delusion that the self is separate from the Self ............. and Krishna , through His song Celestial, the Bhagvada Geetha, beckons him with the advice " Abandoning all the Dharmas ( of body, mind and intellect), take refuge in me alone ........" and goes on to say that to those, who will so do, the reward will be ' freedom from action' ( Sh 11 of Ch3) AUM narinder bhandari----------------PRIOR POSTINGNamaste.The only way to 'prove that there exists a super natural power called "God" ' is to find God, in yourself, and everywhere. Others may explain and provide as much information as you wish but in the final analysis, you have to discover God, yourself. You must bear in mind that you cannot "challenge" God to prove He exists; this is human thought and action, on the human plane. I suggest you start with the Nasadiya - The Creation Hymn, Rig Veda Book 10 Hymn 129: 1. THEN was not non-existent nor existent: there was no realm of air, no sky beyond it. What covered in, and where? and what gave shelter? Was water there, unfathomed depth of water?2 Death was not then, nor was there aught immortal: no sign was there, the day's and night's divider.That One Thing, breathless, breathed by its own nature: apart from it was nothing whatsoever.3 Darkness there was: at first concealed in darkness this All was indiscriminated chaos.All that existed then was void and form less: by the great power of Warmth was born that Unit.4 Thereafter rose Desire in the beginning, Desire, the primal seed and germ of Spirit.Sages who searched with their heart's thought discovered the existent's kinship in the non-existent.5 Transversely was their severing line extended: what was above it then, and what below it?There were begetters, there were mighty forces, free action here and energy up yonder6 Who verily knows and who can here declare it, whence it was born and whence comes this creation?The Gods are later than this world's production. Who knows then whence it first came into being?7 He, the first origin of this creation, whether he formed it all or did not form it,Whose eye controls this world in highest heaven, he verily knows it, or perhaps he knows not. Read it several times, sing it loud, ponder the significance and meaning of it, study it, and then ask questions about the Creation of this world, of human life, and the purpose of your existence. Then, go to Geeta for answers. Rest assured you will find God and all answers you seek. Ram RamDeosaran Bisnath-----------Narain ! Narain !! Issue raised by Shrivastavaji and Sharmaji is : If there is God prevalent in the world, why there is sorrow existing ? God is known to be the kindest, all knowing and all powerful. If He knows about our sorrows but is not powerful then one can understand. He will also cry with us, as we do when some one dies.But He is all powerful. If He is powerful but is ignorant, one can understand. He can say I did not know ? But He is all knowing. If He is all powerful and all knowing but if He is cruel, then one can understand. Damn care. Each is suffering due to one's own karmas. Why He should bother? But He is the kindest. He cant say to a 5 year old child, you are suffering because of your past deeds. Even we as normal fathers dont refuse to give milk to the child even if by carelessness he has split earlier given glass of milk. This is the issue raised by these two gentlemen. Narain ! Narain !! Error clearly visible in their statements is total lack of normal intellect and sheer arrogance. They instead of going for reasons and instead of asking soberly a question have sat on the chair of judge and started giving verdicts. They have presumed themselves to be the only wise person, while the fact is that every human on this earth has some speciality which is unique to him. They have concluded certain things without any application of Viveka or even mind or intellect. They are , thus, neither here nor there. They have faith, as does every human being, but they dont know how and where to apply the same. They are standing in dark and feel that there is no light possible. Their views therefore are full of stupidity and lack of knowledge. Without going into that stupidity, we should in fact address the issues raised by them. WHY SORROW EXISTS, IF GOD IS THERE ? Either sorrow is not there or God is not there. If sorrow is there, then either God is not therte.. If still God is there, then He is not all knowing, all powerful and the kindest. Which status is true? Let us deliberate. Sadhak Sarphod Tabalchi ! Like my name, your name is also getting immortal. Join us now, you too ! Narain ! Narain !!Naarad N Maharishi----Hari OmDear Mr SrivastavaWhy are you thinking about God? Can you think for an element which does not exist? Are you not fully independent in acceptance? What made you express your self before this forum? What made you read these messages? What made you still recollect and narrate the book which you threw? You threw the book, but your mind did not ! Why?Catherine has faith. Do you not have faith? If you don't have, then prove your own existence ! Tell me can you live without faith in you. Can you justify existence of faith in you? You have faith in science, and some western writers you named, isn't it? She has faith in God! How you can say your faith is correctly placed, and her faith is not? What gives anyone the right to call another.... fool, or vulgar or bacteria or idiot ! Think about this..... !!! Prove to me by science ( as developed till date) as to who is your father ! Can you prove it, based on your personal knowledge? You are talking about Eternal Father , I am talking about of this birth father. Bring all of your knowledge, science, intellect, mind, expertise, capacity, imagination to prove to me as to who is your this father. Prove to me as to who are you.... Body, nose, ear, heart what are you ? Now prove !Now that you are in the forum... don't run away - let us see how how long these words last .... trash, misplaced, illogical, arising out of darkness and ignorance, blind, irrational, literate fools or lack of belief in God, I say that you believe that there is God. Now prove your disbelief ! Don't run away ! Are you ready for it? Then prove to us as to who is your this birth father , by your personal knowledge !! There should not be any "belief" on anything because your "science" does not recognise belief , it goes on the basis of proof. You should tell us how Mr So and So is your father based on a proof acquired out of your knowledge and not out of any belief on anything. Science goes on facts and acquired knowledge not on any belief. And it is a fact that you exist. How is that "you" who exists? We shall talk about your Eternal Father- Paramatma ( Your father's father's father's ...... Father of Adam and Eve) afterwards. First prove your this birth father. Bring Darwin's theories also in deliberations if that help you in correctly answering to us. Now come on! Let us have healthy deliberations.Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B-------Jai HanumanVery good, Jee, Very good ! There is one idiom in Hindi:Maa ka pata hi nahin hai, mausi ki chinta karate hain !Whereabouts of mother is not known, and people are worrying about mausi (mother's sister) !Raam ! Raam!! Raam!!! There is another idiom in Hindi :Andhe ko andhere main, badi door ki soojhi !A Blind person standing in darkness has claimed himself to be a visionary.Mr Shrivastava ! The best thing which has happened to you is that you have somehow reached to this forum. You were reading the messages , isn't it? Why? Now you should read more intensely and surely Daddy's grace will work like magic ! We have Sister Catherine as examples showing us how to live - devoid of hatred, negativity, frustration, brooding, fretting, ignorance, stupidity, pride. She is sober, intelligent, wise,organised, sharp,knowledgeable, determined, cool and composed. It is obvious to any one who reads her statement. What has made her so? Where lies the difference? Faith in God ! What else the difference can be? Think, if you can.Namaste Jee, Jee JeeShashikala----Dear Friend,I have been studying (not just reading) the Gita for 20 years now. There is some profound wisdom contained within it, and according to me a whole lot of redundant verses as well. Per what I understand, in the 11th century AD, with the advent of the Vaishnav cult, a lot of verses apotheosizing Krishna were added to the Gita. Moreover, many have commented that there would not have been sufficient time just before commencement of battle to discourse 700 verses.Even a child can guess, none of the Deities could move even a finger in their defence over the centuries, many invaders and conquerors from central Asia plundered and demolished Hindu temples... This should convince one of the non-existence of Hindu Deities, and the irrationality behind this myth. And regarding your comment on DNA testing - haven't you heard of so many cases where DNA testing has showed people that they were wrongly believing someone else to be their father? And if someone wants proof of their parentage, don't they resort to DNA testing? Moreover, we are talking about a father that exists in flesh and blood � not an imaginary invention. You said - "It is impossible to know, conquer, realize, attain the sentient essence (GOD, Consciousness, Presence) through insentient means," either confused the meaning of the word sentient, or have invented your own meaning to it. And it is very obvious thatyou think nothing of blind faith, or of remedying it. Little knowledge is dangerous. You write about Schopenhauer being influenced by the Gita. He was influenced by Eastern philosophy, but with the essence, and not with the rituals and blind faith contained therein, Per my understanding of his writings he believed real deductions themselves are by no means to be found in Hindu Scriptures. He regarded the world as a prison, as a place of suffering, a theme central to Hindu Scriptures. He had the sense to take matters to their logical conclusion. Based on what I understand of his writings he indicated that if the world is a place of suffering, and freeing the soul is the ultimate goal, then it is highly immoral to give birth to a child and trap a soul in a mortal prison. - Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860), On the Sufferings of the World (1851). Sadly, most of the people who read our Scriptures lack the insight of people like Schopenhauer to understand simple truths. My understanding is that Schopenhauer detested Religion, the concept of God, and for this very reason described the masses as the "natural and universal league of the stupid". (other paragraphs excluded by moderators due to lack of relevance to the TOPIC and length). P SrivastavaShree Hari Ram RamSrivastavaji, Namaskar ! Our question is not about others... Have you personally done DNA testing of your father or are you just believing that the person you call father is your father? If you have not done DNA testing ,,, then how are you much different? Also, kindly share your explanation of "sentient" Here is the quote - "In the whole world there is no study, except that of the originals, so beneficial and so elevating as that of the Oupnekhat. It is the most rewarding and elevating reading possible: it has been the comfort of my life and it will be the one of my death." Arthur Schopenhauer (said about the Upanishads). Ram Ram PRIOR POSTINGChapter ten of Bhagavata Gita explains every aspects of Almighty GodNo more explanations required Thankstruly yours S S Bhatt----" Ahankaram balam darpam, kamam krodham parigraham,Vimucya nirmamah santo, brahma bhuyaya kalpate" ( gita 18, 53).Which means " one who is deyached , free from false ego, false strength, pride, ownership and one who is always peaceful, such a person is eligible for brahma swarupam."When one is free from false ego and becomes non attached to material things, then that one reached " brahma bhuta stage".A pure devotee goes still further and becomed engaged in devotional service. Pure devotional service is the key to attain the lord.There are examples to proveGod's presence. Sant tukaram went back to lord's kingdom on garuda vahana', sent by pandu ranga. Composer singer annamacharya saw lord venkateswara.Hare krishna.Prasad iragavarapu m.d---Sutra 1Parambrahma (Spirit or God) is everlasting, complete, without beginning or end.It is one, indivisible Being.The Eternal Father, God, Swami Prarmbrahma, is the only Real Substance, Sat, andis all in all in the universe.Why God is not comprenhensible;Man possesses eternal faith and believes intuitively in the existence of aSubstance, of which the objects of sense - sound, touch, sight, taste and smell,the component parts of theis visible world - are but properties. As manidentifies himself with his material body, composed of the aforesaid properties,he is able to comprhend by these impercect organs these properties only, and notthe Substance to which these properties belong. The Eternal Father, God, theonly Substance in the Universe, is therefore not comprehensible by man of thismaterial world, unless he becomes divine by lifting his self above this creationof Darkness or Maya. See Hebrews 11:1 and John 8:28."Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things notsee.""Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the son of man (human ego),then shall ye know that, I am he."Sutra 2In it (Parambrahma) is the origin of all kowledge and love, the root of allpower and joy.Prakriti or Nature of God;The Almighty Force, Shakti, or in other words the Eternal Joy, Ananda, whichproduces the world; and the Omniscient Feeling, Chit, which makes this worldconscious, demonstrate the Nature, Prakriti, of God the Father.How God is comprehended.As man is the likness of God, directing his attention inward he can comprehendwithin him the said Force and Feeling, the sole properties of his Self - theForce Almighty as his will, Vasana, with enjoyment, Bhoga; and the FeelingOmniscient as his Consciousness, Chetana, that enjoys, Bhokta. See Genesis 1:27."In this way God created man in his own image, in the image of God created hehim; male and female created he them."So says Swami Sri Yukteswarji in his book, "The Holy Science".Haley Haynes---------Sarphod Tabalchi, you have raised some very pertinent questions, which clearly do away with the concept of an anthropomorphic just and merciful Father � one is reminded of the Epicurean Riddle:"Either God wants to abolish evil, and cannot; Or He can, but does not want to.If He wants to, but cannot, He is impotent. If He can, but does not want to, He is wicked.If God can abolish evil, and God really wants to do it, why is there evil in the world?"The irrational, the tissue of whose brain is of a coarse quality, will try to offer some very stupid explanations to this riddle, leaning on the spurious law of Karma.I am shocked to see educated people attach more weight to blind faith and vulgar superstition than to facts which lie in hand � this is something Charles Darwin had bemoaned as well. Raja Ram Mohan Roy had hoped that Western education wouldrid Indians of blind faith: he was wrong. Western education has succeeded only in creating a profusion of literate fools.I was reading some Indian Scripture in which there was mention of "the God who brings rain and the demons that withhold it" � this disgusted me so much that I just threw that useless book away. Science has done half the job to cure peoplefrom the disease of God and Religion; the other half can be achieved by reading Western Philosophy. I would definitely attach more weight to men of science and logic than to the buffoons who write about Gods and demons bringing rain. Ifbitten by a venomous snake, where would you rush to � a modern hospital stocking the anti-venom, or some dim-witted idiot who would parrot out Scriptures in an attempt to cure you? Until modern science developed snake anti venom, and manyother cures, our Scriptures and obsolete medical techniques were quite ineffective and useless when it came to most medical problems."God is Everything. God is a manifestation of all that is around us(trees, mountains, birds, animals, mankind)" � this quote by Catherine Anderson just proves Epicurus right � it means God is harmful bacteria, virus, and all the evil that pervades the world.If anyone really wishes to enlighten themselves, I suggest you stop reading trash and go for books by great men like David Hume and Arthur Schopenhauer.P Srivastava---Shree Hari Ram Ram Srivastavaji, Namaskaar! Please share with us if you have read the Bhagavad Gita. (By read, we mean - not just superficially scanning...but questioning, inquirying and seeing if the answers are available in it)..... Simply speaking.... if we have not done DNA testing of our father... we are living in blind faith.... As we recollect - ARthur Schopenhauer was deeply influenced by the Bhagavad Gita, he has made comments to that effect. Education feeds the mind/intellect which are insentient. It is impossible to know, conquer, realize, attain the sentient essence (GOD, Consciousness, Presence) through insentient means. Ram Ram ------God is an Anglo-Saxon noun and refers to a Male (as opposed to Goddess), Creator Being. There is no provable God (or Goddess). As Hindus, what do we know? Tat Tvam Asi. This Mahavakya means that we are No-Thing (Tat). This Tat is also referred to as ParaBrahman and sometimes Nirguna Brahman. What can be said about Tat? Nothing. "Mouna vakya ParaBrahaman tattwam." Tat may also be defined as Om Tat Sat(chidananda). This Saguna Brahaman experience is provable. Energy/Light/Bliss is our Atmana. This we know. God we do not know. As Hindus, we have our Ishta Devatas and this good and this is personal. One does not (and cannot) have to prove the existence of our Ishta Devata. Thus, Hinduism is a monistic polymorphism and not the lesser understanding of Monotheism. Swami Param------Shree Hari Ram RamSwami Paramji, Kindly explain what exactly is meant by monistic polymorphism. Ram Ram ------ is obvious that there is NO GOD. The characters attributed to GOD areOmnipresentOmnipotentMercifulAll Knowing.There is so much misery and injustice in this world that either God does not know it in which case he is not all knowing, or he knows and does not do any thing about it. In that case he is not merciful. Or he can not do any thing then he is not omnipotent.I take a recent case of a 10 years old girl being raped by her father. What was God doing?It has been said that the girl was being punished for what she might have done in her previous life. How can a merciful God punish a child of ten ? In any case what she did in her previous life could not have been done if God did not will it to be done. If we agree that it was a punishment for some act for previous life than the father can not be blamed for the this act. He was only an instrument in the WILL of God. Let us face it God is nothing but an inversion of Man to explain things he could not explain, create an absolute authority and may be give hope when there is nonearun sharma---Shree Hari Ram Ram Arunji... have you read the Bhagavad Gita? Paramatma is not the doer, nor a punisher ! There have been previous discussions on this subject... in Gita Talk...you can search by topic. Ram Ram ----PRIOR POSTINGTo my beloved sadhaks,Where is God? Who has seen Him? How is God? How do I accept Him? What logic points towards God? Let us look at Gita 7/19"After taking many births and acquiring the human form and realizing that God is Everything, should such a knower (Jnanavan) surrender to Me, indeed such a great soul is a rarity. "Repeat such a great soul is a rarity. My question is how can one not see God, who cannot be aware of where He is, how He is, but to accept Him is a good place to start and how to do this is by establishing a direct affinity for God.Everything is God. God has in simple words, expounded to us the innermost secrets of the hearts of great souls of Vasudev Sarvam. God is Everything. God is a manifestation of all that is around us(trees, mountains, birds, animals, mankind)Bhagavan says(Gita 18/55)" After realizing my quintessence (Tattva) man immediately merges into Me."Those who want to attain God do so by Discipline of Action, Knowledge and Devotion.For more info on God realization go to Swamiramsukhdasjis site and read on how to attain God with humility.catherine andersen-------------------------Shree Hari:Ram Ram.By Grace of God these questions are on my computer:1. Where is God I have never seen Him? God is in your mind. You can't see God with your eyes as mental conceptions are not seen by us.2. Who has seen Him? Nobody ever declared he/she has seen God.3. How is He? Nobody ever described how is God.4. If I don't know how do I accept? If you don't know accept or don't accept, choice is yours.5. God is a term coined by elders to put moral shackles on us so that we may indulge in goodness. What harm is there if you indulge in goodness? Indulge in goodness or not, choice is yours.6. There has to be some basis for His existence. What are the logics which point towards the existence of God? from where to pick the thread? Existence of Existence (termed Tattva, Sattaa by Swamijee Shree Ramsukhdasjee) needs no basis for its existence. Existence of Existence is all logic and all illogic but they can't point towards Existence of Existence similarly as you can't mix water into water when you are under water only. You are the beginning and you are the end of the thread. Pick it up and go. You shall finish at the other end of thread and shall be surprised to experience that what you sought is the seeker. Vasudev: Sarvam. (Gita 7:19).If you conceive God, you fail to experience the experience as experience is experience only (Swamijee in God IS Everything page 2 last para "Similarly in this world, men, animals, birds, trees, mountains, stones, bricks, sand, lime, earth etc. are of diverse kinds, yet what resides intrinsically within, has no form and that formless essence is God".).Bandhu, if anything is easiest it is Realizing God (Existence, not any human with four hands etc they are NOT God as they don't reside in everything, they come and go.) Who is ever Realized as You can't deny your existence.Ram Ram.Kachcha Sadhaka Sarvottam.----5 Fallacies & Realities about God Fallacies* Ego Consciousness Realities of Self Consciousness1 Humans believe that God needs something. Humans know that God needs nothing. God is beyond needs and demands. 2 Humans believe that God can fail to get what He needs. Humans know that God can never fail to get what He does not need. He has no needs. God is his own measure beyond failures & successes. 3 Humans believe that God has separated them from Him because they have not given Him what He needs. Humans know that God has integrated them from Him because they are God in human form. God is beyond form and non-form as one Living Consciousness. 4 Humans believe that God still needs what He needs so badly that God now requires them, from their separated position, to give it to Him. Humans know that God never needs any thing from humans other that what they are and have. God is in human form. 5 Humans believe that God will destroy them if they do not meet His requirements. Humans know for God there is no destruction and creation but infinite manifestations of energy of Living Consciousness. Dance of Living consciousness is appearance & disappearance of Physical Universe. *Neale Donald Walsch (The New Revelations)Sushil JainPRIOR POSTINGHare KrishnaGod is worshipped in 3 forms:1. Attributeless-Formless (Nirgun-Nirakar)2. Attribute-Formless (Sagun-Nirakar)3. Attribute-Form (Sagun-Sakar)Goswami Tulsidasji has said"NIRGUN ROOP SULABH ATI SAGUN JAAN NAHI KOI""The attributeless form of Parmatma is very easy to understand butno one can know the form of Parmatma with attributes."The first form of Attributeless-Formless Pramatma can be proved bylogic of uninterrupted existence (akhand satta). The second form ofAttribute-Formless (Sagun-Nirakar) Parmatma can be proved by logicof conscious and sentient Creator, Sustainer and Destroyer.But the third form of Parmatma with form and attributes (Ram,Krishna, Shiva etc.) cannot be proved by any logic, rationale etc.They can only be believed with purport of Gita, Ramayan, Sadhak-Sanjivani etc.If anyone argues over Ram being God then questions like these willarise "In forest how did Lord Ram get deceived by a gold-deer? If Heis deceived then how is He Omniscient? Why did Lord take the help ofSugreev's army? If He takes help then how come is He Almighty?...."When Lord Ram killed Ravan's mighty brothers Khar and Dushan, Ravandecided to examine whether the Omniscient and Almighty Parmatma hastaken Ram-avatar. He kidnapped Sitaji (with disguise of an ascetic)by deceiving Lord with a golden-deer. Lord failed in the examinationand Ravan was successful in his evil plan, but what was the endresult? Lord Ram destroyed the entire clan of Lankan demonsalongwith Ravan.That is why Goswamiji has said"RAM ATARKYA BUDDHI KAR JAANI""Lord Ram cannot be known by intellect."Faith in Parmatma with form and attributes (known as Bhagwan) canonly be developed when one does satsang. Reading scriptures is alsoone form of Satsang.Hare KrishnaVarun P. PapruniaHare KrishnaDear Sarphod Uncle,I sincerely apologize to you and your family for the language I haveused. I thought you were just trying to outsmart us with yourintellectual prowess so I used the same ploy on you; but Sir you area true sadhak. Sadhanaji, Mikeji recognized you but because of my so-called cleverness I did not recognize you. Again my sincereapologies for the usage of harsh words and blunt language.Hare KrishnaVarun P. Paprunia------------------------------Om, God = generator orgniser destroyer.Do you see the air? Nosuppose you don't see the air then you can't see the energies in theair that sustain our body. Suppose you want to hold a grand partyof 5000 people continuing 15 days, then how much work you have todo, you will distribute your work among your relatives. Think ofGod is a organising 600 crores or more ( not only about earth butthink about whole universe). Think who has that Supreme organizingpower ! You or God. God is in every thing from atom to Everest.Suppose you made a car that each and every thing came from you meanseach part of car made from you, by you. That is God. He iscolourless, touchless, soundless, shapeless because he is supremeenergy. If you trust and have faith in God. you will trust ongod.this is the one kind of work of god. because hi is ruling onus.Whether you go to the church or any mandir or masjid, your needsby pleading to your superior� He is That. And you say uponfulfilling your wish - "thank God" What is that power that isfulfilling your needs? Whether small or a big one, it is fulfilledand often no by your effortHari Om,nilesh popat mali,-------------------------------PRIOR POSTINGTo Respected Sadhaks of this really divine , perhaps the only of itskind across the globe, Satsanga Group!It is me, Dear Brothers, with my Dear Begum Sahibaa respectfullythanking you all for gems of wisdom which you imparted to me and tothe world. An association of people like you, group like yours, isor can only be God willed. Indeed, with people like Vyasji, (extremely polished and never contradicting. Must be the one who hasseen/ touched the "dukhalayam" very closely, very wisely and wonover the same), Mike Keenor ( You are pride of the very humanity)Varun, ( I am sure he is younger than many of us- his impetuosity/quick reaction reflects that, but very clever and very organised-Refer Gita 16/1 - jnanayogarvyavasthitam- an ideal young follower)Pratapji Bhatt ( Spl regards for you, for not firing me back) , thatreal firebrand Dear Sister of all of us Shashikalajee ( What asharp discrimination you have been blessed with ! ), Mira Dassji (An impartial devotee /follower of Respected Swamiji RamsukhdasjiMaharaaj), Rajaji, Baiyaji and dozens like them, are the jewels ofthis divine forum. My heartfelt pranaams to Vineetji Sarvottam. Hiscomments were innocent and correct.Thanks AgainSarphod TabalchiRaseeli Rani Tabalchi--------------------------------PRIOR POSTINGDear Sadhak,Yes, Sadhakji, you are a Sadhak-a seeker of Truth,this is what myKrishna says--Chatur-vidha bhajante maam janh sukrutinorjuna!Aarto jijnasuj-arthaarthi jnaani cha bharatarshabha! (Gita 7 / 16)O Arjuna! There are four types of noble souls who worship Me : Theafflicted, the seekers of knowledge, the seekers of enjoyment andthe wise.Gigyasu - seekers of knowledge.The main barrier in not seeing God here and now is that you areusing wrong tool my dear.You want to see God through yr mind, whichitself is Asat.A traveller of Gyaan Marg, must know the differencebetween Sat and Asat.He must disconnect himself from everythingwhich is Asat(temporary, everchanging). He needs to drop/disconnecthimself from everything-the world, its relations, his own body,senses, mind, intellect, ego..... When everything is dropped thereremains NOTHING.Just Nothing...simply Nothing.....From that NOTHING emerges Peace, Love and Bliss. From that Nothingemerges EVRYTHING... This is the beauty of Gyaan Yoga.And the most wonderful,the most amazing truth about my belovedKrishna is---He(God) becomes whatever you want Him to be. When wesee HIM as our protector, He rushes to rescue us as in the case ofDropadi, when we see Him as our Friend, He becomes our friend as inthe case of Sudama, when we accept HIM as all powerful miraculousbeing, miracles start unfolding in our lives.When we see HIM in astatue, he becomes motionless. He is everywhere in all forms,andwithout forms too, just we are unable to see him due to our ownlimited vision.When we accept HIM as our Guide and Guru, like Arjuna did, and wishto see HIS Vishwaroopa, He bestow us divine vision and we see Him ineverything, everywhere. I see many people saying God does not exist,money is God..ect, etc. So what, He does not hesitate to become nonexistence for them, still showering His Love....No discrimination inHis regime.He just "IS". I love Swamiji the way He describes HIM. SomewhereSwamiji said-He IS or He IS NOT, this "IS" remains the same in boththe statement(nahi main bhi hai or hai main bhi hai).wow...Howblessed this human form is!!!How divine this forum is!!!Lets be Love, Peace and Bliss !Shivoham! Shivoham!!With lots of Love,A SadhikaSadhna Karigar------------------------------1. Where is God I have never seen Him? You cant see HIM as HE is anobject. Have you seen Saturn planet? How do you belive thatscientist? You belive based on Knowledge. In temples 2000 years oldthere are nine planets know as Nava Graha. How they saints knewwithout scientific proof.2. Who has seen Him? 100 `s of saints.3. How is He? HE is formless and with form or any form HIS devoteneeds.4. If I dont know how do I accept? If you dont know, try to know.Still your if you fail- It Gods will.5. God is a term coined by elders to put moral shackles over us sothat we may indulge in goodness. Why your parents put morals asshakles to put you good charactor. So is God put. Just understandit. If you think shackles you are mistaking. If you think guidanceyou will progress.6. There has to be some basis for his existence? What are the logicswhich point towards the existence of God? From where to pick thethread? Nine planets and earth are in space floating. Who made them?You want to make something you gather material and put your effortto make project. So there is someone who is behind all and yourthinking capacity. Otherwise could be a lay man.Jai Sri Krishnabaiya sathyanarayan------------------------------PranamGod exists. If you want solid evidence I recommend you searchon "milkmiracle" You will see for your self.bvmJai Shree Ram------------------------------Dear Mumukshus (those who yearn for Divinity), Namaste. For thosewho yearn for Divinity's Peak Experience, no such doubt arises; infact their question would be why shd they have doubt in God!Doubting God takes one nowhere.Trying to reach the divinity is the correct way. There is no proofof the dreams we have very regularLy. They don't 'exist' in thesense of all these existing objects, you see.WHERE IS GOD WHOM I DON'T SEE:Do you 'see' the radio waves, electricity, magnetism? Do you seelove, hatred, jealousy? Do they not exist? Why all shd be visible?WHO HAS SEEN HIM?A lot of people have 'witnessed' 'Him to whom the divinity hasrevealed 'itself'.WHO IS HE? - HOW IS HE LIKE?He is She and is That. One form for one thing is inapplicable inthat experience of visioning the Reality which is The Absolute amongthe experiences.IF I DON'T KNOW HOW DO I ACCEPT?The dead people, unborn people, people who are far away - you can'tsee them. Do you lose belief in such invisible all? Be honest inanswering these abstract questions.GOD IS A SCHAKLE . . . GOODNESS.God is not directly linked to morality, goodness, honesty, kindnessetc which we teach for our youngsters to whom we want good futureand for building in them the moral character which saves oursociety. All honest people won't see God; no dishonest person cansee God.THERE HAS TO BE SOME BASIS FOR THE EXISTENCE OF GOD. WHAT ARE THELOGICS FOR THE EXISTENCE OF GOD? FROM WHERE TO PICK THE THREAD?We do ask for proofs for the objective things only. God astranscendental baffles those objectives. There is no harm in thedisbelief about God. But missing a chance of His experience whileborn as human beings is to miss a great opportunity. We do all thosethings of happiness. enjoying etc for which we can afford. We canafford to have a Peak Experience in this human life. Why not try?If you surf the Youtube on the Internet, try among them thespiritual masters' sayings. Ramana Maharshi, NisargaduttaMaharaj . . there are scores of them who are the proofs of God.You may want to read Tony Parsons book, 'The Open Secret'.I am not glorifying him or anybody in this context. I wanted toshare with people who are seekers like me. I wish all our people thebest of luck during this Christmas and Happiness in the New Year.Dr Shastry--------------------------------1. Where is God I have never seen Him? You cant see HIM as HE is NOTan object. Have you seen Saturn planet? How do you belive thatscientist? You believe based on Knowledge. In temples 2000 years oldthere are nine planets know as Nava Graha. How they saints knewwithout scientific proof.2. Who has seen Him? 100 `s of saints. In Duryodhan Shaba when SriKrishna took Virat roop, everyone folded their hand and seen HIM asGod except Duryodhan who told it was illusion.3. How is He? HE is formless and with form or any form HIS devoteneeds.4. If I dont know how do I accept? If you dont know, try to know.Still your if you fail- It Gods will. Yasodha accepted Sri Krishnawith love and compassion, so she tie HIM up with rope to a roller.Duryodhan wanted to tie up Sri krishna who took Virat roop unable totie up. It is the way you accept.Jai Sri Krishnabaiya sathyanarayanPRIOR POSTINGJai HanumanI agree entirely with Usha Sridhar. Dear Sister! Keep writingregularly . You are precise, accurate and perfect. So is SisterAnita- absolutely correct and "really" .practical and therefore onthe path of Gita 7:19 ! Welcome Brother Wilson ! Welcome Ram Bhai !O Daddy the Great ! Let such "Divinity" continue flowing unto thisGT Group ! So Pleasing ! So unbelievable !! So many reasons toexclaim with pleasure- "Brilliant" !Thanks Sarphod ! How is your Begum Sahibaa ! It is a sin to make hercry- Get me ? SIN - I say! Do you understand what is sin? "Anguishof your soul" is most of the times " your sin" - also ! AlmostAlways!Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj would often say that what is the proofthat Mr X is your father - BASED ON YOUR PERSONAL/ INDIVIDUAL/REMEMBERED/EXPERIENTIAL-"KNOWLEDGE"?No body, come what may, has been able to "prove" in the past, norcan they do so in the present , nor will they be able to "prove"that in the future ! Nor can there be any possibility of provingthat. If you can't "prove" the existence of your even this father onearth, how can you prove the existence of your "eternal father"?Reason: "Self" Proven ! Obvious !! Beyond Mind/ Intellect/Ego !"Acceptance"/ "Faith" / "Belief" - is the only remedy. If some bodywants to argue on this - Come On !! Hats off to you BrotherWilson !! Please keep contributing and participating in thisSatsanga forum!Mike Bhaiyya ! I gleefully noted three things in your latestmessage -1 An Aussie !2 Clever 'little' dialogue!! ( Jeeva -Maya - Jagdish. Maya is in thecenter. Noted that Brother? Between the two ! )Above all -3 Flowers in the Sky !!!!(What an effort by You? What a research ! How well read , indeed !So difficult! Yet so obvious ! So handy ! So quick - within hours ofposting the 'little dialogue' ! So Self Proven ! So inaccessible !Yet so easily available !But available in the universe to whom ? Available why ? How timelyand exactly ?Sure, the poem was already existing in this creation / uiniverse fora long long time- it was not Mike Keenor made- but what about itsmanifestation !! )Thanks indeed ! Unbelievable! "DIVINE" !! Do you get us MrSarphod? - We are Sadhaks ! Only "Sadhaks" !Namaste JeeJee JeeShashikala---Dear Vyasji,You have answered beautifully. But, the problem is that Tabalchi jiis more interested in getting 'brilliant' and similar appreciatorycomments from others (as is evident from his second mail).Before trying to know God (Where is God I have never seen Him? isTabalchi ji's first question), he should explain what he is. If heknows about himself, then he will see God's smiling face. Again, theproblem is that Tabalchiji is depending on others even to know "koaham (who am I)"May I quote from Shankara ? "KASHTWAM KOHAM KUTAH AAYAATAH, KA MEJANANI KO ME TATAH" (who are you, who am I, from where have I come,who is my mother and who is my father).Kind regards,Suresh C SharmaPRIOR POSTINGHari OmOne who has thirst inside, only can see water. If there is nothirst, inspite of water being in your front, it is not noticed byyou. Similarly , one who has thirst for God only can "see" God, andone who has thirst for world only, "sees" the world.It is your desire which in fact determines what you can or can notsee- IRRESPECTIVE OF WHAT IN FACT EXIST OR DOES NOT EXIST.Because of your desire for the world only you see the world which inreality NEVER EXISTS. Because of your non-desire only you can notsee God who in reality ALWAYS EXISTS !!Want to see God? Mr Sarphod? Develop desire for Him !!Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B----------------------------Dear members,This is the first time I am writing on this forum - not because Ididnt wish to comment earIier, but only because I am too young inthis stage - by experience and by learning.However, looking at the questions raised below, I thought I shouldat least share my feelings:1.God is no external being - he or she is part of each one of us -all living beings. So please, do not try to explain to children thatgod is some type of other person. And therefore, each one of us hasthe responsibility to lead a life which moves towards positivity,looking at betterment, and not hurting people, beings by our act.Seeing GOD - we all have. Only some have realised him. He is in mymaid who comes to work each morning, he is in my child - who hugs meevery time I meet him, he is in my husband - who lives with me andhas made my life complete. I have seen him in the rickshaw walla -who stopped by me to offer me ride to office yesterday. I see himevery day in different forms - sometimes, I too do not realise thatit was him who smiled in the morning and made my day. Everytime youmeet a person who does good to you - he or she is a reflection ofGOD. So, see god in all and see all in him.2.The world is like stage (as Shakespears has said) - and all of usare in here to play a role - be it tree, human, animal, you and me.And so is a child here to play a role. All our roles are defined bythis supreme power, whom we call GOD.3. There are many happenings in our life which we humans are notable to explain - all this we credit to that UnKnowableforce/energy - GOD.Try to see GOD in your family - your parents, your collegues, yourneighbours, and all the people whom you meet - search for that lightin them and do a small good act to make them happy. GOD would bethere with you!Anita Sharma-------------------------Maybe my use of the word brilliant, can be misconstrued,a little tooAussie, it was intended as a exclamation of pleasure.I know you are playing the roll of 'devils advocate', as clearly youwould understand, Maya and Jeeva in Jee Jee Shashikalaji's cleverlittle dialog.Best to direct a single question to a Sadhak/Sadhaks.See Zen poem below:(Emptiness in full Bloom).Leaping from the Ledge of Infinite Regress,The Unmoved Mover fell into Formlessness:Pure silence echoed between the galaxies,Eons of eons vanished in a second,Withered trees bloomed in fires,Polar mountains melted, rivers went dry,Thusness scattered in sixty directions,Space became Time, time became things,Black Holes filled with Nirvana,A billion samadhi mirrors shattered,Galaxies snuggled within a single skull,Many became One, One only, only One.Then, the Divine Illuminatrix in All BeingsOpened Her clouded Eye, to see:Flowers in the Sky.With Respect and Divine Love,Mike Keenor--------------------------Hari Om.Respected sir,I've studied from my childhood that motheris our first GOd.We can see God only through our mother,father and Guru.Where is the proof that you came through your mother's womb?If you can explain how you passed through your mother with proof,I can explain with Krushna's Grace the true Krushna provided youhave the permission to see Krushna.Rest in my next.Hari Om.With Regards,Ushasridhar.--------------------------Jesus Says.I am the way, I am the Truth, I am the Faith. Please read the Bible.thanksWilson KochukunjuDear Mr. Sarfod & friends,Since the beginning of human civilization, the question whetherthere is a God (or Gods), has occupied the human mind. It has alsobeen answered by various people in various ways in all the ages.But, the question has persisted till this day.I have my own explanation. I emphatically say that Parmatma doesexist. The entire universe is within Him and He is also beyond theUniverse. He is so great and also so small that nobody can see Himwith his naked eye. He can only be realized. Regarding proof, everyliving being and every plant testifies His existence. With his super-intelligence, man has been able to do most amazing things andcreated wonders. But, man is still way behind in creating anythingthat is self generating. Every creation of God, on the other hand,is self-generating and self sustaining. Reproduction is a specialfeature of every species. Yet, every species has a life-time afterwhich it vanishes. Even this earth will meet its death some day. Wesee planets and stars dying and new ones coming up every day. Thisnever ending cyclic order of creation, recreation, assimilation andre-emergence is a glaring proof of His existence.Yours sincerely,Ram Bhai------------------------------Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!Varunji, I want to thank you so much for speaking out to Tabalchijiabout I being not judgemental at all. As a friend and a fellowseeker, I was suggesting, Tabalchiji to read as many times as neededto grasp the meaning or at least ask questions to clarify points.Most of us know that when we read or hear 2nd or 3rd time it makesso much difference in our understanding!I want to wish you the very best Tabalchiji. One day you may wake upand find all answers about Truth of God, this world and "you".All sadhakas have provided excellent answers/pointers!Wishing you the best of Xmas Holidays and New Year, my fellowsadhaks, I remain prayerful!Namaskar......Pratap Bhatt -------------------------------PRIOR POSTING-Shree Hari-Sarphodji,You know; the world as you see it, is a shadow of what it really is,I once heard it described as seeing the reflections of reality on theback of a cave wall, one has to turn around to see the glory of whatit is.Most people it seems, focus their whole lives looking at the falsereality reflected on the wall of the cave.Have we not all read about Yogis with extraordinary abilities? Isthis all lies, do such souls look on the doubters such as yourself,say nothing, smile or laugh as Lord Krishna laughed, they havenothing to prove , all the doubters have to do is turn around as itwere, to understand.One great soul that I admire was Swami Vivekananda, to me he seems tobe a man ahead of his time, a person of great intellect, and aspiritual giant. It was he that aroused the world to the wealth thatIndia had to give.11th September, 1893: 'Response to welcome' address:"Swami Vivekananda addressed the august assembly of seven thousandpeople starting with the words: "Sisters and Brothers of America...",and the whole of audience went into inexplicable rapture withstandingovation and clapping that lasted for more than three minutes......."If you consider you have a mind of sound reasoning, then maybe youcould read the yoga aphorisms, translated by that great Swami. (Ifyou require any translation).Why does your Lady weep, is it because she sees the anguish of yoursoul. No matter what you may say or truly think, you are in conflict,do you understand ? Jee Jee Shashikalaji has hinted at it, otherSadhaks have made the point also, things like why ask about thatwhichdoes not exist etc.Sadhaks have implied that they have been through that battle. Ihave,I will tell you this, how much you reach for Father, how much you cryfor him, the tears of anguish will then turn to tears of joy, whenyour heart breaks loose from prison that binds it.You may not understand what I am writing about, but one day you will.With Respect and Divine Love,Mike Keenor-----------------------------Dear Sadaks,I have not seen God yet. That is the reason I am not silent. The onewho has seen God remains silent. Let us not make tell Mr.SherphodVedanta/Upanashids.1.Where is God I have never seen Him? To see a program on TV, oneneeds TV Equipment, Power (electricity), and telecasting tower2. Who has seen Him? One who has turned his body equipment as atemple, Power of tuning (Craving to liberate) in mind, as mind haselectricity, magnatism, and telecasting tower (GOD) omnipresent.Just one has to tune to HIS frequency that is surrender.3. How is He? HE is benevolent to come in any form you meditate.4. If I dont know how do I accept? Go on saying any name of HIS.Eventually HE will tune to your frequency as HE did to Druva.Jai Sri Krishnabaiya sathyanarayan----------------------------Dear SirphodI made a posting on your question. There was no attempt by me or forthat matter by any body (from the posts I see) who could give youanswers like you might be expected.If you want to learn about God (accept or otherwise is a differentissue) you need to spend time and energy. You can select a Guru whocan help you. I do not see from your postings you have thisexpectation, but the one below.But if your goal is to dispute existence of God, there could beanohter forum that must be working on such attempts.By the way you can come out with your real name.Venu KomanduriPRIOR POSTINGHi Sarphod Tabalchi,1. Where is God I have never seen Him?It seems you never tried to see God. Seeing God is not possible byour physical eye. Those who have an insight of God only can see God.If you try sincerely seeing God is would not be a problem. There aremany ways prescribed in our scriptures. First, Have faith in it.Then after you never deny God.2. Who has seen Him?I see Him always and communicate with Him. Not only with God, I talkto birds and animals. I can understand them and they understand me.3. How is He?He is always Happy. He never deny anything. He never denied myexistence. He wants everyone happy.4. If I dont know how do I accept?Dont reejct anything. Accept everything as it is. Never expectanything in your way accept everything as it is. Keep God in yourmind if you dont know God. Chant Oh God Oh God Oh my God wheneveryou want deny God.5. God is a term coined by elders to put moral shackles over us sothat we may indulge in goodness.If you know this much of God you should not deny God.6. There has to be some basis for his existence? What are the logicswhich point towards the existence of God? From where to pick thethread?First you ask your Parents who are patient to teach you the basicconcept of God existence. Once you have prerequesites to learn GodGod comes to you automatically. Be Patient. Can you ever see theelectricity passing through a wire. A bulb is shining, Have you everenquired about the electricity which illumines the bulb? Think aboutTV., Fridge, Air Conditioner etc., etc. whcih can not functionwithout electricity. Even you can not ask these questions withoutthat power unseen in you. My dear beleive in God is far easier thandenying God.Lovingly, Krishna (Shobha) Das------------------------Wonderful testing of sadhaks by Tabalchi jiWe all must thank him for the excellent questions and for giving anopportunity to better our understanding in the spiritual domain.All questions have very easy answers. Excellent expression by allsadhaks...in answering these.But it is very difficult to satisfy the questioner on the answers.since these very questions cloud everything....and become obstaclesto understanding the truthsince it is about knowing the questioner first............knowing orseeing God comes much later.....It has happened to perhaps all of us in the beginning and we mayhave gone through this period.But if we are able to contemplate on the questions with someguidance, question begin to dissolve/disappear........and theanswers start looking meaningful........So, Tabalchi ji and the begum sahiba could start with contemplatingexercise on the questions firstfor example:Q1 Where is God? ----contemplate on......where it should be? whatcould be the place where it could be,why it can not be hear with us?Q2 Does God exist? ---- Contemplate on.....Who am I? ask yourselfrepeatedly who am I?Q3 Who has seen him is irrelevant? My seeing is important socontemplate on questions - Why I don't see the God? Can I see it?What could it look like? What should it be?Q4 If I don't know how do I accept? Contemplate on What I don'tknow? Do I know all? How can I know more?Q5 Any other word other than God could be used for it. Contemplateon: Is goodness gives happiness? Are moral values important? Whywe need to fear the word God to be good?Q6 Contemplate on questions: What is basis of its existence? Whatis the basis of our existence? What God must exist? Why prophetshave to come to this world? Who are these prophets?See what comes as answers. It is a good learningexercise......answers are within and we must practice to startlistening.....everyone has to do this for himself..............bestwishes......Thank you....Sushil Jain----------------------------Dear Sarphod:I have similar questions that you have.Following is the status of those questions (mind you not answers):1. Just beacuse I can not see GOD, that does not mean that there isnothing like GOD which exists, since there are so many things thatexist and yet I can not see (ex: Air, Gases and so many unknowns tomankind yet)2. Same way as I have the question on the existence of GOD, I alsohave the question on my question itself, i.e. I can not prove thatthere is no GOD either.3. Say suppose some one suddenly shows me the GOD, what are my testsand verifications to accept him/her/it as GOD. Do I have all thosetools, a big NO (I am not sure about you)4. Even if I have all those tools to test the existence of GOD andall the tests are proved positive, then is it going to help me. Thatmeans, do I have the right objective to find out this very unusualthing called GOD? What is that single biggest thing that isbothering me about finding out this GOD? Does it have theseriousness to find out the GOD? If it does all the above questionsshould be answerd positively. Or else, I am not sincere in my quest.5. I might not have all these tools right now, yet I have the questto know about the existence of GOD, then I do not jump in to quickconclusions like "There is no GOD, this forum is not DIVINE, etc.,"because that conclusion neither helps me nor taps in to the rightsources of knowledge. I will be just fooling myself saying "I askeda question which this forum is not able to answer"Just for the record, I remember in the whole known history ofmankind, only one person (Sri Ramakrishna Paramahansa) has admittedto have seen GOD and was ready to show GOD to the one who wasearnestly with deepest intellectual anxiety and sincerity (SwamiVivekananda).The one who has shown and the one who was shown the GOD did not havequestions. The SOURCE and the SINK are in the perfect state of mind,one to give and the other to receive. Am I in the equanimity levelsof Swami Vivekananda? I don't think I am and let me know if you are.If you think you are, just stay there with sincere hope, ARAMAKRISHNA will happen to you and your intellectual quest might befulfilled.If not I need to get there before I start looking for GOD. Till suchtime, GOD is tentative truth for me.With a hope it might help you,Sincerely,Krishna (devangam krishnamurthy)Hare KrishnaSarphod, you have praised me by saying "I am very good". FYI! I wasnot entertaining you but I was questioning YOUR very existence. Youdon't have any doubt in your existence still you cannot prove it.Why so?? Have you thought over it?? If you can prove it (with yourlogic/rationale) then why don't you do it?Mikeji called you brilliant (I wonder why) but he has also calledyou inflexible. But I think you have not noted that. He, Vyasji,Pratapji and others have also given many points. You should thinkover it, compare it with your logic and then prove it wrong. But forthis one need guts, because you will have to keep aside yourprejudices to think over others' points. Even if you are not able toprove us wrong it does not mean that we can make you accept God, wecan only give logics/rationale.No one can force anyone to accept God, especially those who do notrespect their father. If you cannot respect your father than how canyou accept and respect the biggest father (Param-PitaParmeshwar).Your father has deserted you and your wife also seems tobe upset with your adamant attitude, but you still don't have anyshame in admitting it. Rather than introspecting over your attitudeyou are defending it.Pratapji has not passed any judgment; it is you who is passingjudgments. Mike is best, Varun is very good, Vyas NB is making methink. If these are not judgements then what is it? Pratapji hascorrectly pointed out that you are not reading posts with an openmind.You have posted these questions only because your wife has directedyou to this group. This is the biggest problem because you are notinterested in knowing or learning anything, you are only askingthese questions just for the sake of it, just for a mere formality.Mrs. Sarphod, please don't insist your husband to post questions. Heis only wasting our time and also don't reveal him anything aboutGita, because if you do so you will unnecessarily incur sin (Gita18.67)You cannot see God or feel His presence but you definitely feel yourexistence as "I AM", right? Then why can't you prove it with yourlogic. I have asked 3 questions w.r.t. your existence but did notget any reply.Hare KrishnaVarun P. Paprunia---------------------Jai HanumanMr Sarphod ! So you do not think or talk or desire regarding "flower of sky"- because it does not exist. You yourself said that.You can think/desire/talk about only that thing which exists.Now this is the biggest proof. You thought about God. You talkedabout God. You desired to know about God. You raised questions inthis forum about God. How can you do that- if God does not exist?If you can do that then why did you not talk about "flower of sky"?As a law you can desire about only that thing which exists.Answer now! To the point only. ONLY to the point.You said yourself that you would believe in your parents even ifthey were dead immediately after your birth, because there is abasis. The presence of yourself itself is an indicator of theirexistence. True. Now go backwards. Presence of your parents meansyour grand parents were there. Go backwards and keep going. In theend you will find one male and one female. Who were their parents?God is "Param Pita" - our eternal father.Clear?Namaste JeeJee JeeShashikala ----------------------Hari OmYou wanted as to what is sample of God. Answer as given by Varunjiis correct. You , yourself, are "sample" of God ! Because like God,you are also permanent and faultless. Everybody "experiences" that -I EXIST. ( You talked about experiencing- I am talking aboutexperience only) . Do you have any doubt Mr Sarphod that you are notexisting ? You never have any doubt on this. You never conduct anytest to determine whether you exist or not. You neverexperience/feel that - I DID NOT EXIST. About past you may saythat "I don't know", but you can't say "I didn't exist" ! How canyou say so?Why can't you say? Because you have never perceived your"self" tobe non existing. Non existence of your"self" has never come intoyour experience. Even in respect of the daily occuring of deepsleep, your experience never suggests that at that time you were nonexistent. But at the same time you experience directly theabsence of ego, intellect, mind and body etc., in the deep sleep.So you exist.So He exists.Now you are constantly experiencing changes/temporariness in yourbody. Who can experience that? Only that element (Self) which ispermanent and changeless and who is looking separately canexperience so..So you are permanent. You are witness. You are changeless. You arenot body. You exist both with or without body. You exist.Similarly God is also permanent. God is also witness. God is alsochangeless. God exists both with or without body. God exists.So you exist. At present you are existing Mr Sarphod Now in yourbody. In which part of the body you are existing Mr Sarphod? Inwhich part of the body you are not existing Mr Sarphod? In fact youare existing everywhere in the body.God exists everywhere in the universe as you exist everywhere inthe body.Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B------------------------------By summery of GITA: "Tat Twam Asi" or 'That You Are'This logic is explained by Many in different way, as Jesus : "Keepyour self as pure as a Temple, so that GOD can reside in you"As the world today is more scientific, we require proof by ourSenses.No machine can prove Logic.By psychologist EEG machine shows that Yog has a point when we gainenergy from vast outer energy when we Join our inner energy during ameditative state.Todays scientific terms were not expressed before. So we can saypositive Energy in us and arround is GOD.This GOD creates and increases, but the negative energy will growonly to destroy and eliminate named 'devil' !The different State of Mind or Self is depicted in the Epics ofRamayana and Mahabharata by the characters playing in the theatre ofthis World.The Conditions of Heaven and Hell are also due to this state of self.'Tat Twam Asi' in definition of GOD as 'Bramah-Vishnu-Maheshwar' isalso what we see in us.Psychological mind as Male-Female has in us as a Child, Learning andCreating with help of 'Sarswati-Bramah'. Then as we are in ourYouth, we Earn and Run our life with the help of 'Laxmi-Vishnu'. Atthe end of life our Old age, Eliminate and Destroy many beliefs withthe help of 'Shakti-Shiv'. Thus we prepare our self for the nextbirth. The Energy, called 'spirit' by many, is indistructible andchange form. We can ralise it and can even see as Vivekananda(nonbeliever of statue) was shown by Guru Ramakrishna(ardent idolworshiper). The idol is the Mirror to see our self !--RegardsSwapan PURKAYASTHA --------------------------------PRIOR POSTINGDear Sarphod:I adore your persistence to what you think is right - that is a goodquality to seek truth. At the same time, I am a bit disappointed inits lopsidedness! It is not clear what you want, frankly.I have two questions for you: Are you afraid of "God"? Do you urgefor "God"?If "YES" to any of these questions, you have a problem. You can'tstick to your current logical conviction. It is obvious that yourcurrent logical conviction irrespective of its self-proclaimedexcellence is JUST NOT DOING ITS JOB :(. Your logical provess canclaim accolades ONLY IF it removes your fears and quench yourdesires.If not removal, at least a nominal reduction in their intensity iswarranted ... if your intellect is working straight.If "NO" to any of these questions, I see a bigger problem. Why areyou confusing yourself with these questions. That "NO" becomesmeaningless just because you are incapable of letting the veryquestions go! The very reason you are raising these questions provethat you are infested either by fear or by desire or by bothregarding "God". THAT IS EXCELLENT!Then, it is "YOUR" primary responsibility to address the same. As Imentioned earlier, your current intellect is incapable of helping youout. Then, you have to make a shift in your thinking to inspect theignorance harbored within. Pardon me for calling it ignorance. But,the fact is ... it is. Inherent fears and desires can never let anindividual happy. They create the turbulence within in terms ofthemselves. The existence of miseries is proof enough that we are notapplying our intellect in the right direction. After all, it iscommon sense that we do everything ONLY FOR ONE REASON - to behappy. I am sure you agree with it.The question is are you happy with these questions as such or are youreally interested in a possible solution. If you are happy with thesequestions, be happy. You can never get the solution though! If youreally need a solution, QUESTION the very questions. That is the onlyway out left for you to be happy. Do you have any other choice? Ifyou have, please pursue. Being happy is the bottom line of allactions ... being happy ... being happy but nothing else.Nobody can instruct you what God Is! You have to figure it outyourself.I don't know who misled you that this or anything specific "is adevine forum" as if anything else is not! If you seek divinity,everything is devine. If not, some may claim "divinity" as if therest is not. Please do not get trapped into such notions ... if youreally want to seek clarity regarding your question. Question yourquestions ... TRUTHFULLY. You will see the end of the tunnel.Again, PLEASE DO NOT EXPECT OR INSIST FOR EXPLICIT INSTRUCTIONSREGARDING GOD. YOU WILL NOT GET ANY ANSWER ... UNLESSS ... YOU SEE ITWITHIN YOURSELF! The only suggestion I can make is ... look for ITwithin. Because, looking out all these years has seemingly remainedfutile! There is no point in digging into others' psyche when mine isnot receptive enough. If I insist to continue, I can guarantee myselfof more confusion to come!! Because ... GOD cannot be held within any"psyche" as such.Anyway, just few suggestions to think about ... think about it if youwant ... ONLY IF YOU WANT.All The Best.Respects.Naga Narayana PRIOR POSTINGDear "Sadhaks" (?)Why my simple questions are not getting answered. Shashikalajeeasked me some questions, instead of replying to me. I , upon theadvice of my Begum Saahiba humbly replied to her. Now instead ofresponding to me, she has given a conversation between a son and hismother. My Begum is insisting to me that I should again and againread that. OK I will do that. But let me answer her anotherquestion. I have not desired to smell "flower of sky" , because itdoes not exist. Sometimes I feel that both my Begum Sahibaa and youSadhaks have lost mind. What a funny question Shashikalajee hasasked. How can I desire or talk or know about a thing which doesn"texist? This is my basic fundamental and solid argument. Vyas N B isgiving indicators which require me to think. I am thinking. But thebest among you is Mike Keenor. He told me to remain solid. Headviced me to remain tenacious, merciless and hang on. I am hangingon. But then why Vineet Sarvottam told me lies? Varun Paprunia gavehim a fitting reply. Varun - you are very good. This Pratap Bhattis rebuking me. Why? What is my fault. On one hand you are simplygiving me round round answers. On other hand you are passingjudgement. Is this a conduct of a sadhak. Please reply to me. Orsay - none of you have capacity to answer my simple questions. MyBegum Sahibaa has already started crying. Have mercy on her atleast. But Mike praised me. He called me "brilliant".Waiting for answers.Sarphod Tabalchi---------------------------We all struggle with these questions. The answers I found logical isthis: There is something beyond mind and matter. Some will call thatsomething Omnipotent, Omniscient, Omnipresent. Others will call itrandom nothing. Another question one hears is why do I want to knowThat Something. To Know, or to Control it? Here in lies the paradoxand answer: If it is to know only: He is right there with you,within you: The Life, Love Peace. If it is to control so that wecontrol our surrounding: That is the struggle of Ego. Arjuna had tosee the Universal form to get over the final hurdle.Jay Shree Krishna.Hemendra Parikh-------------------------------Dear devotees of Lord Krishna,The discussion is interesting. I learned the gita much better afterseeing the life experience of a realized lady, who had darshan ofLord Krishna ( first darshan of Lords feet after chanting a slokafrom 10 th chapter of Gita for 30,000 times continuously for 30days ). Her conversations with the Lord have been recorded inTamil, and can be shared with the group if interested.With kind regards,Sincerely,P.Vivekanandan-------------------------------Try Brahmacharya ( the vow of celibacy in thought, word and deed, bywhich one attains Self-realisation or reaches Brahman) and you willsee for yourself the value.The Srutis declare: "Naayam Atma balaheenena labhyah - This Atman isnot attainable by a weak man." In the Gita you willfind: "Yadichhanto brahmacharyam charanti - That desiring whichBrahmacharya is performed" (Chap. VIII-11). "Trividham narakasyedamdvaram nasanamatmanah; kamah krodhastatha lobhastasmad etat trayamtyajet - O Arjuna! Triple is the gate of the hell, destructive ofthe Self; lust, wrath and greed: therefore let man renounce thesethree" (Chap. XVI-21). "Jahi satrum mahabaho kamarupam durasadam -Kill this powerful enemy, passion, by the observance ofBrahmacharya" (Chap. III-43).If we are determined to attain the goal of life by leading a purelife, we must keep this mind busily engaged in Divine thoughts,concentration, meditation, study and service of humanity.It is difficult to eradicate lust. But you need not despair even abit. Have faith in God, in His Name and in His grace. Lust cannot becompletely rooted out of the mind except by the grace of the Lord.You are bound to succeed if you have faith in Him. The Divine Graceis needed. God helps those who help themselves.Until man continues to cling to worldliness, Paramatma cannot begrasped by him.You can read more about this in the "Easy Steps to Yoga" by SriSwami Sivananda.chirag almoula--------------------------------PRIOR POSTINGDear Sadhakas, Namaste!Tabalchiji, with all the respect for you and questions, I may pointout that no one can make anyone see anything let alone God if thatperson doesn't want to see. It seems like you may be insistent uponseeing God in the way you want to see.Please forgive me if I am wrong, but as a friend I am saying. Itseems like you may not have read the postings with open mind, withthe desire to know the truth. Open mind doesn't mean accepting, itmeans you must give a fair reading/hearing and then asking pertinentquestions or raise doubts based on what is read. Here your responsesindicate you have decided that God cannot exist for you if youcannot see or have some logic to prove God's existence. One has tosee that "seeing God" means deep understanding of intuitive naturein this context where mind being limited cannot comprehend. It hasto be prepared to be open. Our conditioned mind is incapable ofgrasping truth.Some of us provided solid logic, but it still fell short to make yousee the pointers.I said one cannot say "I don't see God" without knowing what God heis looking that he cannot find. One has to know what one wants tosee, right? One can say "I don't know God, tell me what/where Ishould look, and how to recognize". It is different than show meGod, right?Once again, God is the Conscious/Intelligent Existence as reflectedin our experience of "I am" right now as you read these words. Infirst posting, dialogue was used to illustrate it as a solid proofone cannot deny.There are ways to experience God for which senses-mind-intellect isnot capable like they are for knowing objects. Nevertheless, thereis proof of God more reliable than that.But this point didn't make any impression.I request you with humility to re-read responses again and see whathappens!Namaskar..............Pratap Bhatt-------------------------------Hare KrishnaOkay Mr. Sarphod,Let's put God's existence out of equation for a moment and onlydiscuss about sample/logics/rationales w.r.t. YOUR existence.I AMWell, you don't have any doubt in your existence, right? Your bodyhas changed and it is rapidly changing every second. But Mr.Sarphod, is you also changing with the body? You are certainly notchanging with it because if you were changing then who would haveknown the change in body? You are that changeless element who knowsthe change in body. Isn't it? Childhood, youth, old age are thechanging phases of the body but you are that changeless element whois witness to all these changes. It is a law that only a changelesselement can perceive the ever-changing element. My question - Whatis the basis of your never-changing existence? If you considerbody's existence as your existence then you are defying all logic,because body is changing every second!!!I and MINEIt is a law that whatever is mine, it is never I. For example youconsider your house, car, wife, children etc. as mine but you neverconsider them as I. But in the case of body you say 'my hands, mylegs, my stomach, my ears, my eyes, my throat etc.' andsimultaneously you also consider it as 'I' e.g. I am not feelingwell. You establish two transversal relationships with the body,that of 'I' and 'MINE'. Whichever thing is mine it is always apart(separate) from you, and that thing which is separate from you, howcan it be I? This body is also apart from you but still you call itas I. Is this logical?Mr. Sarphod, now I wish to see you. Can you show me yourself???Ohh... please don't show me that body which you claim it as mine. Iwant to see that Mr. Sarphod who claims the body as mine. In otherwords, I want to see that element which you refer to as I?Before that I am eager to know whether you have ever seen yourself.According to you anything that exists is perceptible. So Mr.Sarphod, with which instrument have you seen yourself?If you have not seen yourself then, well ..... do you exist ?????And at last one more question- Whose name is Sarphod - body oryourself?Mr. Sarphod, with your logics/samples/rationales etc., first prove1. Your existence.2. The basis of your existence.3. The instrument with which you have seen/felt your existence.Then we will also discuss about God's existence....As Sarphodji is contemplating over his existence, in the mean time,those sadhaks whose faith in God has dwindled with his questions,they are requested to read this Sadhaka postingsadhaka/message/2108Hare KrishnaVarun P. Paprunia-------------------------------Jai Hanuman(Shrimad Bhagvad Geeta- Marathi Edition- By Saint Gyaaneshwarji-Chapter 13- Kalyaan- By Narainduttji Gaur )Jeeva ( J) (We all- as referred in BG 15:7) :Mom pls tell me , when I was born?Maya , Mother Nature, Prakrati, Illusion (As referred in BG 7: 13/14)( M ) :( Irritated) What non sense! Is it some thing to be told? (By a Momto Son?)J: If mother doesn't tell, who will?M: How to tell you? I came only after you !J: Typical Mom ! Means- I came first and then you? Surprising? Isn'tit?M: You won't understand. Be silent and sleep!J: Come On ! First me ..! And then You ...!! (How can it be?) Plstell me the story ! Please !!M: I told you. You won't understand! Many big people even could not.J: Ok ! Then my Father can let me understand. Take me to Him, please.M: ( Curtly) Stop this song of Father, Father. Your Father is Fatheronly for the name sake.In fact, I have to do every thing.J: Does He not do anything?M: What can He do? He is old, ancient, poor fellow (eternal) ! Thentotally actionless! Absolutely non-doer! Neither hands, nor legs,nor eyes, nor ears! Nothing in fact! Look Kid ! Whatever colour ,form etc of the world which you are seeing is my miracle, my form,my competence, my work ! Ok? Your Father has neither any form, norany beauty. What beauty He can impart to the world?J: But all say that He is the real Creator. See Mom! Whatever is myFather, He is my Father! Ok? His insult...??M: Insult! What insult? Whose insult? One who does not have anycaste or creed, any family or varna, any city or village- what canbe His respect or disrespect?J: How bad He will feel, if He listens to what you are saying?M: Even if He gets annoyed, what can He do? One who neither moves,nor walks, nor travels, nor laughs, nor cries, nor speaks, neitherany juice, nor any taste, nor any play !!! This entireexhibition/show I run, Dear Son !!J But out there on Gate (of the circus) His name is written, O Mom !!M: Ultimately you will take side of your Father only. Afterall youare His son!J: O Mom of the Universe! Why did not you put name of yours on thefront gate of this Great Circus? ( The world)M: How to put my name. This is the real trgedy. You won'tunderstand, Son. I, the creator and controller of uncountableuniverses can not do any thing by my name!! (Ramcharitmanas- 5/21/4)J: Don't be sad and sorry Mom! What is the matter?M: It is very secret, Son! If by seeing my banner outside the gate,if somebody wants to meet with me, he will be disappointed. Son!Please understand my pain. One is lazy ( does nothing), has noorgans, is actionless- those who want to search such (an element)person , they search Him merely by His name! (Ramcharitmanas-1/26/2). But to me, even when I am controlling entire sentient andinsentient world, if some body wants to search, CANNOT find! Cannotsearch.J: Why not Mom?M: (With tears in her eyes) Because, in reality, I don't exist. I amfalse. I am asat. I am non existent. My "not being" is my "being".Whatever is not- I am that. I am no-thing.J: And whatever is there, that is who? Who is that?M: He is your Father, Son!J: (In mind, talking with himself only, Son thinks/says - Hats offto you Mom! When you don't exist, then this is the scene of theworld that even Lord Shiva , Brahma are afraid of you -Ramcharitmanas 7/71/8- had you existed "actually" Mom then.....)O my No-thing Mom! When you don't even exist , then on whose poweryou run this circus called the world?M: What to tell you, Son? I can tell you only this much that, ofWhose a mere flicker of eyebrow, I do rule the uncountableuniverses, I can't dare/ don't have courage to face Him. I do runthis circus only on His strength.J : O My Unconquerable Mom! My hundreds of Pranaams to you. Blessme , O Mom! So that I may get my Father!!While bowing and doing Pranaams to his mother, Jeeva becametranquilised and then in the background divine music played-"MAAMEVA YA PRAPADYANTE, MAYAMETAM TARANTI YE "(BG 7:14)He was He only!Namaste Jee.Jee JeeShashikala--------------------------------Shri Hari-My dear Sarphodji,A few points to consider, I have said I have been touched by theDivine,(just one way of putting it), such Grace is life changing, Icould be lying or be mad,(I tell the truth), but I know just byreading the things fellow Sadhaks have written that I AM NOT ALONE.Some people come to Bhagwan with ease and joy others take the path offire so to speak, (the hard miles).In the west there is an expression,'The Dark Night of The Soul', andyes! If it is known in the west it is most absolutely known in theIndian Traditions.(I think Arjuna's predicament reflects that),I willstay using the terminology to which I am most familiar.You say you are deserted, you are not deserted, the Brethren have notdeserted you, and in the Darkest Moment of the Soul, there is a lightshining, that light comes from 'That', which will wash away youtears, 'That' which will break your heart so that you can bemended. Your arguments are not solid dear Brother, not to those thathave felt the embrace of The Beloved. Your inflexibility, combinedwith your determined search, may well introduce you to 'The DarkNight...', the very ONE you rebuked the most, will be the one thatrescues you. I speak from experience not from books.With Respect and Divine Love,Mike Keenor PRIOR POSTINGHari OmIf sadhaks can concentrate on giving short pointers / rationalewhich establishes the existence of Supreme Power it will help allin being definitive, have reference material and it will alsostrengthen faith. Ego, Intellect and Mind don't let you agree thateasily. And who knows who may need in the coming turbulent era ofKaliyug, that is lacking in faith and belief. Let us get united.From discourses of Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj (Taat Shree), whom Ihave solely relied on for a number of years -Every human being wants the following:1) To "live for ever". This is desire for SAT (existence). Fear ofdeath is the indicator of that desire.2) To know every thing. No one wants to be unknowlegeable. This isdesire for CHIT (Knowledge).3) To be happy. No one wants to be unhappy. This is desire forANANDA.Any doubt Mr Sarphod? Now if there is a desire then the element tofulfill that desire must also be there. There must be some one /some element which enables you to "live for ever", to be all knowingand to be ever blissful. Had such an element not existed, we wouldnot have had the desire for the same.Paramatma is SAT-CHIT-ANANDA.(Sachchidananda)Raam! Raam!! Raam!!!To be continued.Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B------------------------------Dear Tabalchi ji,According to J. Krishnamurti "modern so called educated" people wanta little bit of intellectual amusement and therefore they indulge inmeaningless discussions about God and such matters. God cannot bediscussed in this manner, because That Absolute Truth (giveIt/Her/Him any name) is beyond description.Your all the six questions are like the enquiries of a "fullstomach" tourist without an iota of appetite going through the menu,or reading it aloud with his co-friends. If you are really thirstyyou will not indulge in such childish questions about water, butwill try your best to drink it.I suggest you read Uncommon Wisdom and other books by Dr Capra (aphysic scientist) who has quoted from our Sanskrit literature aboutGod, or read A Brief History of Time by Hawking Stephens (well knownexpert on dark hole and universe) to know the concept of time andspace. At least do go through some writings by Nobel laureate DrEdington (a scientist). Only then, you can be a little serious aboutexploring the great Absolute Truth. Become "jyan-vijyan-triptah" andonly then we can walk together on this spiritual quest.Regards,Suresh C. Sharma------------------------Sir,You are asking the oldest question ever being asked. See aroundyou, a sperm has made you upto approximately 6 feet. Who designedthis project and process. Your father and mother only are tools.Inquire within and get the answer.surender syal--------------------------------Mitro,Why has this God become famous as "HE" why not "she" or "IT"or "Nothing"? Today's generation will not believe in gibberishbakwaas . The paradox is every religion, every saint says that Godis ONE. But even within Hindus philosophy we see thousands of gods(many names and forms). If God is One then why all the differencesand the fights? How come? Ramchander Homma------------------------------I agree with Luca Brasi that I should be fairly replied. I haveasked a lot of questions. I want proof/logic and I want to know Howis that Supreme. I want sample. I want rationale. My Begum Saahibaaalso told me that I am head breaker like your Shashikaljee told me.But I never agreed with her so far. I never admitted this version.I am not head or skull breaker. My name suggests that I am mindfixer. Any way how the name matters? I am what I am. I accept myparents because even if I dont remember my birth, they rememberthat. They know that I am their child. I can see them. I can feelthem. I can experience them. I can recognise them. That is why theyare my parents. Where is God? How can I accept God on the groundsthat since I did not know my parents at the time of birth and Iaccepted hence I should accept God also. Children are children. Theydont understand. But I am adult. I understand. My Begum Sahibaacould not satisfy me and hence she asked me to get in touch with youShe said you will satisfy me.I checked with her that I am notsatisfied even after, because I have MOST SOLID arguments, thenwhat? Even my father deserted me because he could not satisfy me.She said such situation will not arise. If I cant see , I cantaccept. Prove to me how one can accept without seeing or feeling orexperiencing or logic or rationale or basis. At least I should feelor experience. Even if my parents were dead at the time of birth,still I would accept that because how can I come without them onthis earth. What is your answer? Pratap or Vineet or Mike orShashikala. My Begum Sahibaa said few things regarding observationsof Vineet also. Please reply- Sadhaks of this selfproclaimed "Divine" site. Dont go by my name. Even my BegumSaahibaa complains regarding my name. What can I do regarding myname Jee?Sarphod TabalchiPRIOR POSTINGHare KrishnaSarphodji,Not only can Parmatma be an individual he can also be a fish(Matsya-avatar), a tortoise (Kachchap-avatar), a pig (varaha-avatar),a half lion-half man (Narsimha-avatar) and what not!!!According to Gita, not only can a devotee see God but also know Himand also enter into Him.Arjuna saidO universal form, O thousand-armed Lord, I wish to see You in Yourfour-armed form, with diadem on your head with club, wheel, conch andlotus flower in Your hands. I long to see You in that form. (11.46)Sanjaya saidThe Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krishna, having spoken thus toArjuna, displayed His real four-armed form and at last showed Histwo-armed form, thus encouraging the fearful Arjuna. (11.50)Lord Krishna said:My dear Arjuna, this form of Mine you are now seeing is verydifficultto behold. Even the demigods are ever seeking the opportunity to seethis form, which is so dear.Neither by the study of Vedas, nor by penance, nor by charity, noreven by rituals can I be seen in this form (with four-arms), as Youhave seen Me.O valiant Arjuna, through single-divided devotion, however, I can beseen in this form (with four-arms), known in essence and even enteredinto.My dear Arjuna, he who performs all his duties for Me, depends on Me,is devoted to Me, has no attachment, and is free from malice towardsall beings, reaches Me. (11.52-55)Please give special attention to the last 2 verses. This will answeryour question of knowing and seeing God.Yes, I have also read the same in Swamiji's book which your wife hasstated. I consider it to be true because I believe in Swamiji'swords.Hare KrishnaVarun P. Paprunia------------------------------Hari OmNo! Sarphodji. Those who want to learn should read carefully andshould learn also to be patient. All sadhaks upto now have givenexcellent observations. I have also given you logics/pointers andwillcontinue to give you till you get satisfied. I agree with Luca thatthere must be logics/rationale existing. It is another matter, as MrVineet stated, that they are pointless once you proceed ahead. Butstill questions are questions and your insistence , though, odd butstill should be respected. Your "Begum Sahibaa" appears to havedirected herself to peace. I wish you understood the hidden affectionin the in the message of Mike Keenor to you. Here are morelogics/pointers to you:3. In life, we always find a higher person than ourselves. In everyfield a higher person than one is existing. See around you, you willfind this statement to be true. Even the President of USA can not say"I am the Highest". Always a better /higher person than you isexisting. Now where does this "highness" end. If there is sense ofhighness , then there must be an element which is "highest". God isthat element. God is the HIGHEST.4. You always need some "shelter" to survive. In the childhood youneed shelter of parents, teacher, etc. Then of education, ability,wife, money, home, employers, what not. In old age, you need wife,children, stick, doctor, medicines, health etc Sujects change but notthe need for shelter.. If there is consistent need for shelter , thenthere must be an element existing of whose shelter is the ultimateshelter. Is not it Mr Sarphod. ( You should argue on such inprinciplepoints. Check up with you Begum Sahibaa.) ? If you are thirsty ,theremust be water existing on the planet. Now when you need always someshelter or other, then there must be an element which can bedescribedas " Highest Shelter available "! God is "PARAM ASHRAYA DATA" Giverof that shelter. If you take shelter of God, no other shelter will benecessary,5. We always want to be perfect. There is no doubt on that. But thereis also no doubt regarding the fact that we err. In fact "to err ishuman" -this saying is prevalent on this planet from time immemorial.Now if there is a desire to become perfect then there must exist anelement which is most perfect. Did you ever hear that there was adifference of a fraction of a second even in timings of Sun rise andSun set? Is not everything moving to the perfection? Who can be moreperfect except God. God is the MOST PERFECT.To be continued till you say "I am satisfied"As regards your observation that "Nature" also creates/controls-answer is that whether you believe that nature has "knowledge"? Ifyes, then that nature is our God. In our religion ( I don't know yourreligion) SHAKTI is God also. But if according to you , the INERTNATURE has no knowledge, then you have to accept God. Can inertnaturetake care of so many souls, operate Law of Karma, provide food to somany creatures? If Yes- I don't mind calling that Nature to be God.After all it is a matter only of "terminology". If no then you mustaccept that IF THERE IS DESIRE / NEED IN YOU TO BE PERFECT OR TO TAKESHELTER OR TO SEEK HIGHNESS then there exists an element to fulfilthat desire. That element is called " GOD/ PARAMATMA" . Logical ?Doesit appeal to your logic Mr Sarphod? Check up with your Begum Sahibaaand come back. Your arguments shall exhaust, not our arguments- besure on this. After all you are on GT Site !Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B-------------------------------Dear Sarphod:Wonderful! I like your guts to put this question across!! I wasstartled to start with and even alarmed as I contemplated "thanksfor triggering the turbulence from which proceeds the peace asalways."Son goes to father and asks, "Father, what is God?" Fatheranswered, "Whatever drives your life, whatever sustains your lifeand whatever absorbs your life is verily God my child. Think aboutIt!" The father was wise enough not to instruct what God is. The sonpromptly contemplates in what his father said and came back, "Father,fear drives all the lives. Fear sustains all the lives. Fear absorbsall the life. Therefore, fear should be the god." Fatherremarks, "Good job! Keep thinking." The son not knowing whether hisrevelation was conclusive or not continues to contemplate. Son comesback to father and declares, "Father, desire drives all the lives,desire sustains all the lives and desire absorbs all the lives.Therefore, the desire should be the god." Father remarks again, Goodjob! Keep thinking." The son does not feel the conclusiveappreciation regarding the god - is it fear or desire? He continuesto contemplate and realizes that, the happiness drives all thelives. Happiness sustains all the lives. And, happiness absorbs allthe lives. Therefore happiness should be the god.Now he does not go back to his father as he has already felt thewisdom behind his father's remarks. God is not something that can betaught to, or preached to or transferred to anybody. It is thenotion within ... it is the imagination within ... it is thedeliberation within ... it is the understanding within ... it is theappreciation within ... IT IS THE PRESENCE WITHIN in its core. Theson, accepting the challenge from his father to use the body, sensesand mind blessed to him, continues to contemplate.He has seen the driving force, sustenance strength and absorptionpower in the fear, in the desire as well as in the happiness. Hesees that the three divinities of creation, sustenance,andabsorption transcend the boundaries of his existential fears,desires and happiness altogether integrating the whole universe ofknowns as well as unknowns - manifested as well as unmanifested -mitigating the differences that were once prominent amongst thethree phases of life - fear, desire and happiness.Then starts another dilemma - who is the god amongst these threedivinites that seem to determine what life is? Driving Force orSustenance Strength or Absorption Power? Again, he approaches hisfather, the wisdom established within to contemplate on the dilemma.The driving force comes first to claim the unclaimed post of TheGod. On ruthless examination, the driving force starts wonderingaloud that it itself should have been driven by something else. Thenew driving force wonders the same and so on. The driving force digsup an infinite legacy of its own kind beneath lost in the oblivionof the past. It returns back in frustration not withstanding whatthe driving force could really be.The absorption power jumps in next to claim the still unclaimed postof The God. Again, the wisdom starts the same gruelling scrutiny.The power under sharp vigilence starts whithering away to wonder ifit absorbs everything there should be something to absorb itself.The new absorbing power wonders the same way and so on. Theabsorption power piles up an infinite heirarchy of its own kindabove lost in the oblivion of the future. It returns back infrustration not withstanding what the absorption power could everbe.The empty throne is still awaiting to be filled. The sustenancestrength walks to claim the post in confidence. The valiant wisdomdoes its job with no resistance subjecting the life sustenancepower in suspension of its examination. The sustencance strengthwhich provides strength to all the life around starts wondering whatis the source of its own strength and sustenance. The new source ofthe strength resounds the same wonder what could be the source ofstrength. The sustenance strength keeps jumping from on fold toanother all around the universe that is within its control to seekitself folding itself in infinitude lost in the vast presence. Itreturns back in frustration not withstanding what the sustenancestrength could ever be.Seeing the crest-fallen champions of life not realizing their owntrue nature around, the throne of The God starts fading intosilence. The wisdom starts wondering in itself. Is it not thedriving force as well as the sustenance strength as well as theabsorption power all the time all around? Suddenly, the demarkationbetween the three divinities that was once so thick and opaquestarts giving away to reveal the force, strength and power ofcreation, sustenance and absorption in itself and hence in everything that is perceieved ever.The realized wisdom gets back and declares. Never ever ignore yourfears. Never ever ignore your desires. Never ever ignore yourhappiness. Ever be with your fears, desires and happiness as youare. Then you see the unison amongst your fears, desires and joysand hence in all your emotions, relations and existence within aswell as around. Then you see all the boundaries separating yournotions dissolve in the very wisdom where you dwell upon. Being whatyou are in spite of your apparent variances of life naturallytranscends all the barriers built by your cognition acrosseverything to reveal THE ONE everywhere and everywhence. Then thevery post of God does not appear to be real anymore which seemed themost troublesome question to start with.God remains evasive till you drift away from what you are in vainsearching whatever IT could be! Therefore, my dear friend, betterpause in your frenzy search and look around and look within … bewhat you are. Then God is everything … not just a notion ... notjust a faith ... not just a doubt ... but, everything ... EVERYTHINGWITH NO EXCEPTION. If you remain what you are, IT is all-inclusive.If you attempt to search for it, IT becomes all-exclusive. In otherwords, IT is EVERYTHING in your presence; and IT is NOTHING in yourperception.Respects.Naga Narayana--------------------------------Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!Let us address one aspect of Tabalchiji's issues with responses ofsadhakas received so far!To be able to see God, one needs to recognize God upon seeinganything, right? If one says I don't see God, one is looking for whatone "thinks" God is in whatever one is looking at. For God to be"that" it will be very very limiting to God, because what we think isso limited even if it is some grand image of God. That is notlogical, right?Now when Swamiji says Goenkaji and Poddarji had darshana of God, whatdoes it mean?It means the deep understanding of what God is and subsequentrealization that "my God, there is nothing else but only God IS inthe disguise of the Cosmos" that sees through that individual.The individual's vision has changed entirely, where he/she sawobjects of the world before, now he sees only Divinity in the sameforms. It is our experience that what we believe out there, we tendto see only that through our being closed minded. Similarly when weunderstand God, this "Understanding" opens up the very mind who seesGod everywhere, individual is merely a channel God is using.Other aspects of issues will see later....Namaskar............Pratap Bhatt-------------------------Shree Hari-Sarphodji,Great! You are still questioning brilliant!I have read the responses from our brethren, great beauty full ofdivine love. But I will stick to the hared nosed roll,(look past itdear friend).If someone asked me to show her an oak tree, and I gave her an acorn,what would she say I wonder? Of course the blueprint for the wholetree is in the acorn, one also one wonders, did the first oak treehave an acorn or the first acorn have an oak tree?Question 6 if resolved is the platform upon which all the otherquestion can be answered it seems to me.I can only tell you how I came to be touched be The Divine, that wasby my search into paradoxes, like the universe, like the acorn.I once mentioned a man I met in unusual circumstance. It was about3amin a large air traffic control room, very few controllers in the roomat that time. I was waiting to get clearance to work on a console(todo annual technical checks). There across the room was thiscontroller, He had his headset on,(with a long lead), he wasperforming asanas, (within the restriction), "trying to stay awake?"Iasked, "no he boomed", we started to talk. We had 'Much' in common,wedeveloped a dialog from then on , it was he who suggested I readBhagavad Gita,(I humbly suggest you do also).He once said to me with his booming humorous voice, "Mike if peoplecould her us they would think we're 'Lunatics'.What we had in common at the root, was our hunger for the truth, andthe courage, 'to ride the tiger".We were an unlikely pair from a world view, he was a Sri Lankan, meanAnglo Celt, especially if one could here us talking, but we werebrothers of the spirit.There is much I could talk of, but I must bow to the respectedmoderator.With Respect and Divine Love,Mike Keenor-Mr Sarphod ! So you are a male as well as married ! Very good Jee !It is a good habit to act in accordance with advice your Begum. Howdid she leave you alone? Do you have books of Swamiji RamsukhdasjiMaharaj at your home? Your “Begum†had those books according toyou.Did you read them? Or your Begum only reads them? By the way didyou ever think about or did you ever have a desire to smell “flowerof sky†? Why did you not think about flower of sky or desired tosmell it ? Reply. This is a question to you. Also reply if you alwaysbelieve only after “seeing†?Let us know as to how you can get satisfied according to you?. Whatmethodology suits your mind.? How do you generally feel regardingthis world,mind, intellect, body etc etc ? How according to you suchabig world is operating ? Do you think there are some laws governingthis world? Keep also giving your observations , counter arguments onEACH AND EVERY response which is given to you. Otherwise how will weknow whether the cure has taken place? Understood? You can consultyour Begum also before replying to my queries. Always tell us whatyour Begum told you and what is your own observation. Why don’t youtell your Begum also to become member and start Satsanga? Will thatnot be better? What is her kind name, Jee?Namaste Jee.Jee JeeShashikalaDear Sadhakas, Namaste!Another aspect of issues raised by Tabalchiji can be answered basedonwhat sadhakas already have echoed in their responses.The most important thing is to know that God is not "something","somewhere" and "some times". It is at the core of our being, anintimate experience which is The Knowingness without anything known.In otherwords, God cannot be known as another limited object,nevertheless, is known as "knowingness" in us by virtue of justbeing.For example, if someone were to ask you, can you show me Love, Peace,Compassion, Beauty, Goodness etc "out there"? You cann't! They areexperiences within us that we attribute to things/situations etcoutside which may have triggered them. Some philosopher rightly said"From the beginning, not a thing is!" Please, please, see the truthofthis. We are connected to the world only through Being Conscious ofsomething or other which we conceptualize as subjectexperiencer(mind-body), and objects experienced, both thought asseparate. Such division is not experiential.Just as these experiences are not seen "out there", but are truelyhappening in our consciousness, God cannot be seen, as separate fromConsciousness.Sun, for example, is nothing but the experience of light and heat,conceptualized as "Sun" out there, for practical purpose. This isalsotrue for all apparant objects of the world.God or Consciousness or Atman, are also such conceptual words of themost intimate Wordless Experience! They are good pointers though!When people engage in services to help others who are victims ofdisasters, diseases, violence, wars, terrorism etc etc who motivatestheir actions? Unconditional Love and Goodness of the heart! Peoplewho help to preserve natural environment, forests, animals, etc etcare also inspired by the same Love and Goodness!Can we not call Unconditional Love and Goodness of the heart God?Are those who bring such disasters to "apparant others" also God, ifall is God?They are also, yes, but unfortunately "they" have not understood yetthat they are!In God's world, only God exists playing "others", so who does what towhom?Try doing evil acts after understanding deep within that all of us,nature included, together, not individually, are God! One cannot!Namaskar...........Pratap Bhatt-PRIOR POSITINGDear Sadhak,Excellent explanation has been given by sadhak Pratapji....Excellent!If the parents donot know GOD how can they teach the kids?Swamiji says if something is lying in darkness we can take a deepakwith us to see it but to see a deepak(lamp) we donot need anotherdeepak. Same way the objects of this whole worlds can beseen/experienced through the "SELF" but to know this SELF we donotneed anything from the world( mind/body/intellect etc.) Only SELFknows it SELF.1. Where is God I have never seen Him?He is not HE, He is "I". When we can see/know who am I we cansee/know who is God.Indeed, You alone know Yourself by Your own potencies, O origin ofall, Lord of all beings, God of gods, O Supreme Person, Lord of theuniverse! Ch10:152. Who has seen Him?All realized people have known HIM.Some claim that they have seenHIM too.Swami Vivekananda asked this question to everyone he met-Have youseen God ? All answers negative except Ramkrishna Paramhansa.He said-"Yes I have seen God as clearly as I am seeing you right now."Listening to this Narendra became his disciple.3. How is He?With a single fragment of Myself I pervade and support this entireuniverse.Ch10:424. If I dont know how do I accept?Then go ahead follow the path shown to us by Swamiji or any realizedsoul, and know Him first, then accept.5. God is a term coined by elders to put moral shackles over us sothat we may indulge in goodness.What's wrong with that ? Accept God ,be righteous and be Arjuna ordonot accept Him, be Duryodhana - choice is yours.6. There has to be some basis for his existence? What are the logicswhich point towards the existence of God? From where to pick thethread?Start with meditation and Gita. Follow the path shown by Him in Gita-Karma Yoga, Gyaan Yoga or Bhakti Yoga. Establish yr self in YOGA.....No one can force any one to believe. Kids learn by imitation. Leadyr own life according to Dharma,and kids will pick it up.Beforegiving them tatva Gyaan(absolute knowledge),its better to sit withthem and watch Ramayana, Krishna, Mahabharata and let them learn bythe character of our Sagun Sakaar Bhagwaan(God with Forms). If theycan learn from Rama or Krishna, they will be on right path and willget their realization at their own speed.with lots of Love,a sadhikaSadhna Karigar--------------------------------Jai HanumanOye What a question Jee!!. As good as the name of thequestioner!! "Sarphod" in Hindi means skull breaker ! "Tablachi"means he who plays treble. Unique Jee !! Namaste Sarphodji !!Welcome Jee ! There is music everywhere ! Who kept such a classicname Jee ? Father? OK, pick the thread from father only.How do I accept if I don't know? Accept just as you accepted someone to be your father without knowing anything about him. Don't sayplease- "that children now a days need more than belief to accept".That, I am afraid, is not as classic a statement as is even yourkind name. Fact is that children practice only belief and solidbelief. They are masters of belief - and teachers of entire humanityon this subject of belief. Poor adults need proof. What kind ofproof was solicited by you in accepting some one to be your fatheror some name to be mine or for that purpose by "the children of nowa days"- say son of Sarphod Tablachi, if any ??Do you "know" as to who is your father and who is your mother? Whatproof or rationale you can give to support your acceptance of Mr Xas your father?You asked "from where to pick the thread". I reply to you that youpick the thread from yourself and your Dear Father. Come On !Reply now! Argue !!Namaste JeeJee JeeShashikala-------------------------------Mr.Pratapji Bhatt has explained the existance of God beautifully.Itis very much in sync with Sri Sri Paramhansa Yogananda's explanationin his books-"Autobiography of a yogi" and "Man's eternal quest"which i have read. Also the story quoted by mahalaksmiji perfectlydescribes how to know God.He is all knowing and yet unknown.He isthe Devine Intelligence that governs all that is known to us.God isindescribebable.He can only be felt in the depths of a pure soul.Ami Chhowala--------------------------------I still remain unsatisfied in this "divine" forum. How and whyParamatma can not be an individual ? Is there nothing in yourscriptures like Gita which says that a devotee can also "see" God ?My Begum Sahiba states that she read from a book of your SwamiRamsukhdasji that Jai Dayal Goenka and Hanuman Poddarhad "darshanas" of God. Was His statement right or your referenceof good Swami is right? Why do you say that God can not be known?How then the desire to know can be fulfilled? Whether I need aninstruction manual or not is not the focal point, in fact, to befair to me, answer to my questions in simple and convincing manneris focal point! None of the "sadhaks" are convincing so far. Iasked from where to pick the thread? The responses are unclear andincomplete.Mr Mike ! Incomplete, was your answer. If you believe you were likeme in the past, then make me like you in the present. Is that not adivine task? Is that not the role of this forum? Logic must exist.Pointers must be there. Knowledge cant be beyond itself. What elsewe are doing at present except meeting?Mr Vyas - When Your so called " Nature" made oceans, Sun Moon etcand when Nature is supreme then where is the question of God? Whycant Fire/ Ocean/etc are called God ? If yes, then how God isbeyond knowledge? How God can not be seen as stated by Mr PratapBhatt or by Vineet Sarvottam ?"Sadhaks" - My Begum Sahibaa directed me to you people to satisfymy knowledge quest ! I expected better as I am hungry for answers.Sarphod Tabalchi--------------------------------Such a question can only arise from those who consider gross body asreal self and not the outer sheath of immortal "real self" whichcontains the apriori knowledge.They see God every day but do not recognise THEE. The Universal Godis Tri-Ani-Pada- three bodies in One i.e. gross, subtle and divine.Since the entire Brahamad is God, His gross body consists of "Sunand Moon His eyes, firmament his middle body and earth as His Feet"and His Head is in Heaven. Thus entire Brahmand is God. Most of thepeople who find gross body as real, want to imagine and visulaiseGod as a human being forgetting that human beings who live on thisearth are "Thy" tiny living cells. We have several billions livingcells in our gross body, can any living cell of our body tell who weare?But those who find human soul as "real self" have no difficulty inknowing God. His divine body is the Omniscient Supreme Soul(Parmatma) and His subtle body "Mahadeva" is omnipotent SupremeSpirit prevalent in all animate and inanimate life/things. Hisspirit is found in Shuniya (cosmic void) of all kind of matterconsisting of atoms with unsuspected vitality. Because of His spiritprevalent in shuniya, matter is not inert.Since Man is born in the image of God, human beings are also tri-ani-pada. Immortal soul resides in our divine body, spirit resides inour subtle body and gross instruments in our material body. Thosewho consider material gross body as the real self will always finddifficult to know formless and ineffable universal God.Incidentally formeless and ineffable Universal God is Brahma- namederived from Brahmand and other gods in human form are Iswaras.Iswaras are not the gods of entire mankind.with regards,Prem Sabhlok--------------------------------Dear sarphod,God is in nature,he can only be felt.His power is dwellingeverywhere in the nature in the form of cosmic vibratioins .If wecan tune our mind with the same frequency by way of sadhana we canfeel the godliness of the nature.How a sperm can create a body withlife is the proof of the supernatural power of the god. So far weare only establishing the things which are existing, but we areunable to establish about the source of the existence.O

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Shree Hari Ram RamDear Sadhaks, NAMASKAR! THE TOPIC IS BEING CLOSED FOR NOW. WE WILL START SIMILAR TOPIC AS THE MESSAGES ARE GETTING TRUNCATED HAVING REACHED MAXIMUM ALLOWABLE SIZE. Thank you ALL FOR PARTICIPATING, From Gita Talk Moderators, Ram Ram-------------------------My question is that how to prove that there exists a super naturalpower called "God" ? At least how to explain that. How to correlateHis existence with the character of the world? Children now a daysneed more than belief to accept. Can there be any way vide which wecan establish that God exists. If some body says say :1. Where is God I have never seen Him?2. Who has seen Him?3. How is He?4. If I dont know how do I accept?5. God is a term coined by elders to put moral shackles over us sothat we may indulge in goodness.6. There has to be some basis for his existence? What are the logicswhich point towards the existence of God? From where to pick thethread?Sarphod TabalchiNEW POSTINGYes. God exists. There is lot of proof of God's existence.Rather there is no proof that God does not exist. One must first find proof thatGod does not exist before one asks for the proof of existence of God.Unfortunately, no one has ever been able to prove the non-extence of God.Theperson who can explain logically and cosistently without resort to faith in someconjecture the entire Creation and the entire history of events before and afterthe Big Bang will be able to logically understand the existence of God.Before one seeks proof of God, one must define what he means by God. God in thesense of Paramatma exists for certain. But not any kind of conjectural /hypothetical god.Basudeb Sen--------------------Dear sadaks,To teach children about God existence, child needsproof to totally accept. May be you say this or that, child listens andcontemplates how far your saying is true. That is natural for allchildren.Basically child can be made to contemplate earnestly withinterest with the following. 1) In any sweet ask the child to showsugar. 2) Bigger child ask to show butter in milk. 3) child above 16ask to show electricity or magnetism. 4) child above 18 ask to showhydrogen and oxygen in water. In all the above to know any one of theabove, one has to do some effort (sadana-Bakthi-Pooja-sing on God etc)in water boil to separate hydrogen & oxygen with an apparatus, forbutter in milk, boil milk and add little yogurt, wait next day andchurn to get butter. In electricity, create motion between 2 magnetselectric energy can be felt. First Child has to know that GOD isomnipresent energy in the whole cosmos. The energy cannot be seen as itis not an object. To see or know energy an appratus (Body) and certainfunction (sadana-Bakthi-Pooja-sing on God etc) of body organs as persastras can reveal presence of God.My grandson Chakradari in London asked me the same question andanswered the same. The school there is British and Christianity, buttook the answer of his and presented him a memento. Later he askedabout his class mates bullying him. I said just smile at them and sayin mind Narayanayah. His bullying friends after few days understoodthat their act gave them trouble in some form or other. They becameinterested in Godly talk.� Children ask why so many God and Goddesses next. Then one has toexplain them that it is different forms that came from differentcountries. Now man goes everywhere as so the question comes. Olden daysman was restricted to a place of his own village and God was namedaccording to his knowledge. Further God when incarnated as a bhraminboy was called Vamana.Jai Sri KrishnaB.Sathyanarayan--------------------------------HE can be felt.His avtaars have appeared and fought terrorism andinjustice.Involvement of such names such as Jagdish,Bhagat,Sajjan(noble)tend toindicate divine role against terrorism.Subject is too deep for me alone tofathom.I have even observed the use of the name Nachiketa,saviour in hours oflikely death.tewari subhash chander-------------------------------Hari OmRight you are ! Brother Mike !!QuoteI have for a long time regarded religion, in general, as like roads toadestination. Eventually all these roads merge into a super highway,once on thehighway looking back you can see all paths were true.Trouble is when on theselesser roads, one can easily believe your roadis the only road toGlory/Moksha/ Enlightenment/ Heaven/TheKingdom/Liberation/ The Tao/......UnquoteSwamiji said the'trouble' referred by you above, in the end, (even after you haveattained "mukti") haunts you, as it prevents you from getting"parabhakti" ( Real Devotion/ Bhakti represented by ever increasingLove between Bhagwaan and Bhakta) . Respects from heart to you, Brother Mike !Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N BP.S. I would urge Moderators to continue permitting Sadhaks to praiseother Sadhaks, when need be. There is nothing wrong in praising others-neither Gita nor Swamiji nor worldly conduct norms nor conscience norhumanity considers that be inappropriate. Not praising others may bewrong and jeolous but praising others - let it be permitted. When weare permitting such high velocity praising songs and poems on inertslike money, what is wrong in praising sadhaks? Are they not superior tomoney, at least? Hence let us have these innocent liberties.-Narain ! Narain !!

 

It is a joy to read Vyasji and Brother Mike Keenor. One wonders

how close Mike has reached to the highest truth. Narain ! Narain !!

Indeed, "Samoham sarvabhuteshu, tishthantam Parameshwaram"

Narain ! Narain!!

 

Naarad N Maharishi---Jai Shree Krishna

 

I am sorry to offend Divine GT Moderator's recent guidelines but I

cant help . I must say that the message of Brother Mike Keenor is

divine ! Coming from western world and still having such deep

understanding of Sanatan Dharma is making me proud of Sanatan Dharma

as well. In fact both Catherine Anderson and Mike Keenor are jewels in

the crown of 'Beloved' . I pray that they get ever increasing (

pratikshan vardhmaan prem) of Paramatma !!

 

Swami Rupesh Kumar-------PRIOR POSTINGDo you exist? If so, God also exists. It is as simple. What is the proof that God exists? So, what is the proof that you exist? The proof that you exist is that you are thinking, you are moving, you are talking, etc. The proof that God exists is that the whole creation is moving according to a preplanned scheme, according to preordained, undisputed and unwritten law of Nature.Love and Love alone.....P. Gopi Krishna-----------Hari OmThe following statement by Narinderji reflects that meditation is a direct method of Realisation while Karma Yoga is a longer method , which step by step first leads to "purification of soul".... From the point of view of Gita, discourses of Swamiji , and even technically this statement can not be said to be correct. In fact exactly reverse is the case. Meditation is a step by step long method of Realisation and first you have to "purify the antahkarana" - Yogah chittavritti nirodham - Patanjaliji Maharaj. In Karma Yoga the realisation is faster, easier and DIRECT. Meditation is not direct method as it takes shelter of inert first and for a long time. In the end, meditator MUST disconnect with inert. Karma Yogi straight away disconnects inert and in fact applies inert unto inert, and being sentient remains behind- pure and lone !! He may ask Qs on this to get further clarity. Narinderji may also note that "soul" does not require any purification- it is ever pure ( chetan... Amal (flawless)... Sahaj Sukhrashi) ! In Meditation the "antahkarana" is purified and in Karma yoga , the "ego" is purified to renounce "bhoktaship" (results of karmas) and resolve not to "do" anything for "self" !! Narinderji however may clarify as to who according to him may do meditation as he believes this "direct" method is not open to all humans."BUT ............ ......... ... there is a catch ............ .. this method of the Direct Inquiry is not for all......... .. Karmayoga is the Way for the majority to move into higher steps of purification of the self"Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B------------------------------Narain ! Narain !! The problem with us is that we "know" but do not "admit". We know that who ever is born shall die. But we dont admit, when some one near and dear dies, we start crying. The sentiments of poor Shrivastava are like that only.. The existence of his kind self is in itself the proof of the existence of Paramatma. What kind of proof he can give to justify that he himself exists? Brother Mike ! Enjoy Divine Leela !! DEKHO NIRPAKH HOY TAMAASHA ( One should witness the worldly play remaining impartial) ! How much a person thinks, while he continues to be proverbially a tiny speck in the ocean ? The independence has been given to a human by Paramatma, and He does not object to His children being brat and disobedient. He shall not. But He continues giving money, wealth, health, time, wife, children, air, water, food etc etc - everything even to His enemies. Isnt it His kindness? The fact is that God is "just" with reference to the worldly people. He is "disintertested" with reference to Jnanis. He is "kind" (dayaalu) with reference to the devotees (bhaktas). He is all, He is none ! Is there no love in the slap of mother? He has ordinary inclination ( I repeat "ordinary") for welfare of all of us. His not disturbing our independence is in itself a sign of His kindness, justice and disinterestedness. But when it comes to Bhaktas and those who surrender to Him, He takes their full responsibility. Then He becomes "specially inclined" to save them from ocean of birth and death. But generally, He does not stop anyone to even abuse Him, break His temples, disrespect Him and deny His existence. But the moment some one troubles His devotees, He becomes different. Narain ! Narain !! Naarad N Maharishi---------Jai HanumanYou are right, Brother Mike! I also guess so !! The object of satsanga is also sometimes to suppurate a boil, so that it may be removed by roots. Once object is in focus, methodology is secondary. I liked your example of "wrestling with Him".Namaste JeeJee JeeShashikala---------------------------Shree Krishna Consider the following: Your child is having high fever.You take him to a doctor. Doctor readies the injection and child cries. Now you as father are having same characteristics vis a vis the child as Naaradji stated are the characteristics of ' Beloved Paramatma' viz: 1. All knowing 2 All powerful and 3 the Kindest. You know why child is crying. He does not want the pain of injection touching his skin. You are powerful too. You can say to Doctor, sorry. Without your consent doctor will not give injection to the child. Where is the doubt in your kindness ? But forgetting all three, you hold the hand of child firmly, ignore his cries, and let the doctor give the injection. Why ? Because you know in that sorrow, real pleasure for child is hidden. Similarly, Dear Sadhaks, the laws of Paramatma operate. There is no sorrow existing in the world. In sorrows your long term welfare is concealed. A child or idiot does not understand that. A child understands the language of love, but does not understand language of punishment. But an intelligent child understands language of punishment also. Consider the following example: Your child is in a school. He makes some mistake. Now whenever children make mistakes, the teachers punish them. I remember my teacher used to put pencil between my finger spaces of hand and squeez it hard. Sometimes teachers make you stand outside or on bench. It happens with students not seldom. But an intelligent child never complains regarding the punishment given to him by teachers when he comes home. Why? Because he knows that punishment given to him by teachers was for his welfare and that he made a mistake. This is how Paramatma and the devotees of Paramatma conduct in this DUKHALAYAM, O Divine Sadhaks !! So which kind of child you are Mr P Shrivastava? Certainly you are child of Paramatma , irrespective of whether you admit that or not. What kind of acknowledgement an infant does to the kindness of Mother? He cries even when he is in the lap of her mother !! Hence every child is often called stupid. Swami Rupesh Kumar-Shree Hari-Dear Srivastava,I looked up Schopenhauer in the Wikipedia, and what I found was a philosopher,who had some ideas that wove in and out of Buddhist/Hindu principles.Ex Wikipedia:'For Schopenhauer, human desire was futile, illogical, directionless, and, byextension, so was all human action in the world. The Will to Schopenhauer is ametaphysical existence which controls not only the actions of intelligentagents, but physical phenomena..'You see he was into the metaphysical. Was he out of agreement with such thingsas siddha powers? I can't see how.He did not like Abrahamic religions, from what I can see. But he had a highregard for Buddhist thought and the Upanishads.I have for a long time regarded religion, in general, as like roads to adestination. Eventually all these roads merge into a super highway, once on thehighway looking back you can see all paths were true. Trouble is when on theselesser roads, one can easily believe your road is the only road toGlory/Moksha/Enlightenment/Heaven/The Kingdom/Liberation/The Tao/......I think you require another ally other than Schopenhauer, if you want to teardown the concept of the Divine.I sense you are very angry, but with whom?With Respect and Divine Love,Mike (Keenor)-------------------------------Dear Srivastava ji, “I am shocked to see educated people attach more weight to blind faith and vulgar superstition ..†While appreciating your goodwill for the masses by advocating the modern scientific achievements, I will like to draw your attention to many scientists’ views about God. (1) In his classic “Brief History of Timeâ€, Stephen W. Hawkin talks of God. May I add that he is today occupying the ‘chair’ (Peeth) which was once occupied by Sir Newton. (2) Dr Albert Einstein’s saying �" “Science without religion is blind, and religion without science is lame†(or the otherwise is also true). (3) Dr Albert Einstein’s saying �" “The whole universe is an illusion, albeit of persistent nature†(He was referring to our sensory illusion). (4) I can quote a great deal from scientific masterpieces by Fitzgerald Capra (Uncommon Wisdom and other books) �" mentioning with great reverence about the absolute truth, evening quoting from Sanskrit scriptures. His essence is what Lord says in the Gita (10:8) “AHAM SARVASYA PRABHAVO MATTAH SARVAM PRAVARTATE / ITI MATWA BHAJANTE MAAM BUDDHA BHAVASAMANVITAH†(I am the Source of All; from Me everything evolves; understanding thus, the ‘wise’ endowed with ‘loving consciousness’, always worship Me). (5) Not admitting but supposing that your arguments are okay, let me tell you that even the scientists opine that ‘contradictory is complementary’ (if my memory is right Neil Bohr used to quote this line). (6) Even our own contemporary and very much alive, Dr Deepak Chopra has been talking and writing profusely about our spiritualism.I was reading some Indian Scripture in which there was mention of "the God who brings rain and the demons that withhold it" Please read Gita and It does not mention such superstitions. This is the educated persons’ unanimous conclusion that the Gita is the most scientific pointer to God. Even Arthur Shopenhouver was influenced by this holy book. You have very kindly recommended us to read him; well, I have read him and also another German Poet-philosopher Fredrich Nietzshe whose saying ‘God is dead’ influenced and created Hitler. May I now request you to read another German author (Novel laureate) Herman Hesse (his master piece Siddharth). In short, Bhagwan Bhaskar Adiguru Shankar is considered to the most argumentative philosopher and seer the world has so far produced (without any bias on my part, Sir) and his ‘Shankari Bhasya’ on the Gita is considered to be the most authentic commentary till now. Please read it. Was he superstitious? What do you think the great scientists I have quoted above were/are also superstitious.Having said all this, let me hurry to add that I very much appreciate your ‘concern’ for the welfare of the human race. This indicates that your are also involved in ‘Sarvabhoot Hiteratah’ (involved in the welfare of all). And believe me, you are also advocating God, though in a different manner. Yes, God is all-inclusive and you are also within His fold.Kind regards,Suresh C. Sharma-PRIOR POSTINGWHO IS ASKING THIS QUESTION?WHO WANTS TO KNOW?DARE AND HAVE COURAGE TO KNOW HIM FIRST.........ANSWER TO ALL QUESTIONS LIES THERE..... ENCOUNTER THE "SELF"....KNOWING SELF LEADS TO KNOWING GOD.....IT IS SIMPLE..... Sushil Jain----Shree Hari-When I saw this post re-emerge, originally from Sarphod Tabalchi, and he hadeveryone spinning on the spot. I said to myself, No way, I have been there! ButI decided, 'That hell has frozen over'.Talking of Hell, that advocate of the Devil has re-emerged in the guise of P Srivastava.Straight away I have noticed something:The Patriarch Jacob wrestled with GOD all night long, God then finished the fight by putting Jacobs hip out of joint, could have obliterated Jacob, but just I minor wound. Interesting to note that Jacob did not realize who he was wrestling with. Now this is allegorical, but universal at that level. Some Sadhaks seem angry, I do not know why because you see, these beloved souls, are witnessing you wrestling with Bhagwan. And if you keep wrestling, and don't run away, HE, 'The Beloved', will break your heart and tear you down, with Love,and Grace.How do I know this? You work it out.Coming to science and logic, there is a problem, regardless of scientific principles, modern science is Christocentric, (I think I have just invented a word), there is an older ancient knowledge, one simple example is the solar system, understood in India approximately 1500 years (at least), before being understood in the West, and it was declared a heresy. Oh! and re-incarnationdeclared a heresy 500 years after Christ within Christendom, now the scientist are talking about cellular memory, (they will get there just give them time). These are early times with this debate with you, keep debating, and with Divine Grace, you will understand the things that science can't, just think how wonderful that would be!With Respect and Divine Love,Mike (Keenor).------------Dear Sadak Sarphod Tabalchi & other sadaks,This is what you said,"" God is a term coined by elders to put moral shackles over us so that we may indulge in goodness."" Presume you are correct, then indulge goodness total pure goodness. God surely illuminates HIMSELF to you, like in the case of Vivekanadha who asked similar questions to Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa. Do you know one truth that you will surely know God existence faster than me. Your craving is higher to see God. Where as I think I know about God and making myself fool by giving all descriptions and sastras. Sinners are potential saints- the proverb. Great men like Tukaram, Chaitaniya Maha Prabu when someone pointed mistake (Not really mistake) they readily accepted and tried to change for no fault of their`s. They are Sub Zero in Ego. Example: When Kasi Pandit critisied Tukaram Abang for no sanskrit value in it and ordered to be thrown in river colse by, Turaram accepted and threw the scripts in river. But to surprise of all, the total abang came in opposite direction running water to Tukaram. Pandit body statred itchy and he fell at feet of Tukaram. Sadaks dont change even to pronounce God name as requested, but call it Bavana is important. For sake of God I should change my habbit and try when some one tells me something. By doing so I loose Ego and get Bagavan Sankalp. Zero ego. Get that Egoless God comes to you.No man on earth can describe GOD says Chandokiya Upnashid and Vedas. Vedas may say how water came, fire came etc but it says one can establish in GOD only by Gyana.What efforts did Ajaamilan do? Srimath Bagavatyh clearly says he called Narayana his son. Earnestly studing further it says, Ajamilan was given Gyana first by Vishnu Doots. Anjamilan hearing Vishnu Doots speach given to Yama Doots, his heart felt tears and utmost repentance by thinking that for calling his son Narayana if this grace could flow, what it would be if Narayana was thought during life.God benovolence making you to ask those questions. Present days there people asking so many things and matters except GOD.Jai Sri KrishnaB.Sathyanarayan-------------------------------ALL WORDS REMAIN WORDS, my friends , till the One word blossoms in the self to merge into the Silence that is God ............. and then ................ all is known ............ and this knowing has to become your knowing ................ if you today feel separate from the Self that you are .............. you are the ultimate proof of your own being ............ whatever you feel you are ! even though the aspirant , the means, and the sadhya are ONE , not-two ! Have always been so. Will ever be so ; even so........................ the blossomimg of the One Word , the silent sound of Aum, the unheard melody ever resounding in the self, is the Gift recieved from the Self , when the self is willing to die to the self ................ if the aspirant wants the direct experience of the Self ..................... meditation is the way. .................... meditate, meditate, meditate ............. watch the ' doings' of the self in you .............. be a witness, be a watcher , and wait ................... just wait .................. doing nothing ............. just watch, with the focus of your watching, " who in me is the watcher ? who am I ?" this is the shortest way ........... such is the experience and advice of all the knowers of Silence .............. including Ramanna Maharishi. Swami Ramsukhdas jee means the same , when he speaks of ' self-remembrance'...................... pleaae meditate on Swami Ramsukhdasjee's words.............. BUT ........................ there is a catch .............. this method of the Direct Inquiry is not for all........... Karamyoga is the Way for the majority to move into higher steps of purification of the self .......... each person has to strive to ' understand' what he is at the present moment now. A live Guru is the greatest help, if you cannot yourself become aware of what you are NOW , were you stand on this Path of spiritual seeking, this moment . it is narinder, who is presently deluded... it is nari, who is presently feeling the separation from the Self...... it is he , who has to become free from the delusion that the self is separate from the Self ............. and Krishna , through His song Celestial, the Bhagvada Geetha, beckons him with the advice " Abandoning all the Dharmas ( of body, mind and intellect), take refuge in me alone ........" and goes on to say that to those, who will so do, the reward will be ' freedom from action' ( Sh 11 of Ch3) AUM narinder bhandari----------------PRIOR POSTINGNamaste.The only way to 'prove that there exists a super natural power called "God" ' is to find God, in yourself, and everywhere. Others may explain and provide as much information as you wish but in the final analysis, you have to discover God, yourself. You must bear in mind that you cannot "challenge" God to prove He exists; this is human thought and action, on the human plane. I suggest you start with the Nasadiya - The Creation Hymn, Rig Veda Book 10 Hymn 129: 1. THEN was not non-existent nor existent: there was no realm of air, no sky beyond it. What covered in, and where? and what gave shelter? Was water there, unfathomed depth of water?2 Death was not then, nor was there aught immortal: no sign was there, the day's and night's divider.That One Thing, breathless, breathed by its own nature: apart from it was nothing whatsoever.3 Darkness there was: at first concealed in darkness this All was indiscriminated chaos.All that existed then was void and form less: by the great power of Warmth was born that Unit.4 Thereafter rose Desire in the beginning, Desire, the primal seed and germ of Spirit.Sages who searched with their heart's thought discovered the existent's kinship in the non-existent.5 Transversely was their severing line extended: what was above it then, and what below it?There were begetters, there were mighty forces, free action here and energy up yonder6 Who verily knows and who can here declare it, whence it was born and whence comes this creation?The Gods are later than this world's production. Who knows then whence it first came into being?7 He, the first origin of this creation, whether he formed it all or did not form it,Whose eye controls this world in highest heaven, he verily knows it, or perhaps he knows not. Read it several times, sing it loud, ponder the significance and meaning of it, study it, and then ask questions about the Creation of this world, of human life, and the purpose of your existence. Then, go to Geeta for answers. Rest assured you will find God and all answers you seek. Ram RamDeosaran Bisnath-----------Narain ! Narain !! Issue raised by Shrivastavaji and Sharmaji is : If there is God prevalent in the world, why there is sorrow existing ? God is known to be the kindest, all knowing and all powerful. If He knows about our sorrows but is not powerful then one can understand. He will also cry with us, as we do when some one dies.But He is all powerful. If He is powerful but is ignorant, one can understand. He can say I did not know ? But He is all knowing. If He is all powerful and all knowing but if He is cruel, then one can understand. Damn care. Each is suffering due to one's own karmas. Why He should bother? But He is the kindest. He cant say to a 5 year old child, you are suffering because of your past deeds. Even we as normal fathers dont refuse to give milk to the child even if by carelessness he has split earlier given glass of milk. This is the issue raised by these two gentlemen. Narain ! Narain !! Error clearly visible in their statements is total lack of normal intellect and sheer arrogance. They instead of going for reasons and instead of asking soberly a question have sat on the chair of judge and started giving verdicts. They have presumed themselves to be the only wise person, while the fact is that every human on this earth has some speciality which is unique to him. They have concluded certain things without any application of Viveka or even mind or intellect. They are , thus, neither here nor there. They have faith, as does every human being, but they dont know how and where to apply the same. They are standing in dark and feel that there is no light possible. Their views therefore are full of stupidity and lack of knowledge. Without going into that stupidity, we should in fact address the issues raised by them. WHY SORROW EXISTS, IF GOD IS THERE ? Either sorrow is not there or God is not there. If sorrow is there, then either God is not therte.. If still God is there, then He is not all knowing, all powerful and the kindest. Which status is true? Let us deliberate. Sadhak Sarphod Tabalchi ! Like my name, your name is also getting immortal. Join us now, you too ! Narain ! Narain !!Naarad N Maharishi----Hari OmDear Mr SrivastavaWhy are you thinking about God? Can you think for an element which does not exist? Are you not fully independent in acceptance? What made you express your self before this forum? What made you read these messages? What made you still recollect and narrate the book which you threw? You threw the book, but your mind did not ! Why?Catherine has faith. Do you not have faith? If you don't have, then prove your own existence ! Tell me can you live without faith in you. Can you justify existence of faith in you? You have faith in science, and some western writers you named, isn't it? She has faith in God! How you can say your faith is correctly placed, and her faith is not? What gives anyone the right to call another.... fool, or vulgar or bacteria or idiot ! Think about this..... !!!Prove to me by science ( as developed till date) as to who is your father ! Can you prove it, based on your personal knowledge? You are talking about Eternal Father , I am talking about of this birth father. Bring all of your knowledge, science, intellect, mind, expertise, capacity, imagination to prove to me as to who is your this father. Prove to me as to who are you.... Body, nose, ear, heart what are you ? Now prove !Now that you are in the forum... don't run away - let us see how how long these words last .... trash, misplaced, illogical, arising out of darkness and ignorance, blind, irrational, literate fools or lack of belief in God, I say that you believe that there is God. Now prove your disbelief ! Don't run away ! Are you ready for it? Then prove to us as to who is your this birth father , by your personal knowledge !! There should not be any "belief" on anything because your "science" does not recognise belief , it goes on the basis of proof. You should tell us how Mr So and So is your father based on a proof acquired out of your knowledge and not out of any belief on anything. Science goes on facts and acquired knowledge not on any belief. And it is a fact that you exist. How is that "you" who exists? We shall talk about your Eternal Father- Paramatma ( Your father's father's father's ...... Father of Adam and Eve) afterwards. First prove your this birth father. Bring Darwin's theories also in deliberations if that help you in correctly answering to us. Now come on! Let us have healthy deliberations.Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B-------Jai HanumanVery good, Jee, Very good ! There is one idiom in Hindi:Maa ka pata hi nahin hai, mausi ki chinta karate hain !Whereabouts of mother is not known, and people are worrying about mausi (mother's sister) !Raam ! Raam!! Raam!!! There is another idiom in Hindi :Andhe ko andhere main, badi door ki soojhi !A Blind person standing in darkness has claimed himself to be a visionary.Mr Shrivastava ! The best thing which has happened to you is that you have somehow reached to this forum. You were reading the messages , isn't it? Why? Now you should read more intensely and surely Daddy's grace will work like magic ! We have Sister Catherine as examples showing us how to live - devoid of hatred, negativity, frustration, brooding, fretting, ignorance, stupidity, pride. She is sober, intelligent, wise,organised, sharp,knowledgeable, determined, cool and composed. It is obvious to any one who reads her statement. What has made her so? Where lies the difference? Faith in God ! What else the difference can be? Think, if you can.Namaste Jee, Jee JeeShashikala----Dear Friend,I have been studying (not just reading) the Gita for 20 years now. There is some profound wisdom contained within it, and according to me a whole lot of redundant verses as well. Per what I understand, in the 11th century AD, with the advent of the Vaishnav cult, a lot of verses apotheosizing Krishna were added to the Gita. Moreover, many have commented that there would not have been sufficient time just before commencement of battle to discourse 700 verses.Even a child can guess, none of the Deities could move even a finger in their defence over the centuries, many invaders and conquerors from central Asia plundered and demolished Hindu temples... This should convince one of the non-existence of Hindu Deities, and the irrationality behind this myth. And regarding your comment on DNA testing - haven't you heard of so many cases where DNA testing has showed people that they were wrongly believing someone else to be their father? And if someone wants proof of their parentage, don't they resort to DNA testing? Moreover, we are talking about a father that exists in flesh and blood � not an imaginary invention. You said - "It is impossible to know, conquer, realize, attain the sentient essence (GOD, Consciousness, Presence) through insentient means," either confused the meaning of the word sentient, or have invented your own meaning to it. And it is very obvious thatyou think nothing of blind faith, or of remedying it. Little knowledge is dangerous. You write about Schopenhauer being influenced by the Gita. He was influenced by Eastern philosophy, but with the essence, and not with the rituals and blind faith contained therein, Per my understanding of his writings he believed real deductions themselves are by no means to be found in Hindu Scriptures. He regarded the world as a prison, as a place of suffering, a theme central to Hindu Scriptures. He had the sense to take matters to their logical conclusion. Based on what I understand of his writings he indicated that if the world is a place of suffering, and freeing the soul is the ultimate goal, then it is highly immoral to give birth to a child and trap a soul in a mortal prison. - Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860), On the Sufferings of the World (1851). Sadly, most of the people who read our Scriptures lack the insight of people like Schopenhauer to understand simple truths. My understanding is that Schopenhauer detested Religion, the concept of God, and for this very reason described the masses as the "natural and universal league of the stupid".(other paragraphs excluded by moderators due to lack of relevance to the TOPIC and length).P SrivastavaShree Hari Ram RamSrivastavaji, Namaskar ! Our question is not about others... Have you personally done DNA testing of your father or are you just believing that the person you call father is your father? If you have not done DNA testing ,,, then how are you much different? Also, kindly share your explanation of "sentient" Here is the quote - "In the whole world there is no study, except that of the originals, so beneficial and so elevating as that of the Oupnekhat. It is the most rewarding and elevating reading possible: it has been the comfort of my life and it will be the one of my death." Arthur Schopenhauer (said about the Upanishads). Ram Ram PRIOR POSTINGChapter ten of Bhagavata Gita explains every aspects of Almighty GodNo more explanations required Thankstruly yours S S Bhatt----" Ahankaram balam darpam, kamam krodham parigraham,Vimucya nirmamah santo, brahma bhuyaya kalpate" ( gita 18, 53).Which means " one who is deyached , free from false ego, false strength, pride, ownership and one who is always peaceful, such a person is eligible for brahma swarupam."When one is free from false ego and becomes non attached to material things, then that one reached " brahma bhuta stage".A pure devotee goes still further and becomed engaged in devotional service. Pure devotional service is the key to attain the lord.There are examples to proveGod's presence. Sant tukaram went back to lord's kingdom on garuda vahana', sent by pandu ranga. Composer singer annamacharya saw lord venkateswara.Hare krishna.Prasad iragavarapu m.d---Sutra 1Parambrahma (Spirit or God) is everlasting, complete, without beginning or end.It is one, indivisible Being.The Eternal Father, God, Swami Prarmbrahma, is the only Real Substance, Sat, andis all in all in the universe.Why God is not comprenhensible;Man possesses eternal faith and believes intuitively in the existence of aSubstance, of which the objects of sense - sound, touch, sight, taste and smell,the component parts of theis visible world - are but properties. As manidentifies himself with his material body, composed of the aforesaid properties,he is able to comprhend by these impercect organs these properties only, and notthe Substance to which these properties belong. The Eternal Father, God, theonly Substance in the Universe, is therefore not comprehensible by man of thismaterial world, unless he becomes divine by lifting his self above this creationof Darkness or Maya. See Hebrews 11:1 and John 8:28."Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things notsee.""Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the son of man (human ego),then shall ye know that, I am he."Sutra 2In it (Parambrahma) is the origin of all kowledge and love, the root of allpower and joy.Prakriti or Nature of God;The Almighty Force, Shakti, or in other words the Eternal Joy, Ananda, whichproduces the world; and the Omniscient Feeling, Chit, which makes this worldconscious, demonstrate the Nature, Prakriti, of God the Father.How God is comprehended.As man is the likness of God, directing his attention inward he can comprehendwithin him the said Force and Feeling, the sole properties of his Self - theForce Almighty as his will, Vasana, with enjoyment, Bhoga; and the FeelingOmniscient as his Consciousness, Chetana, that enjoys, Bhokta. See Genesis 1:27."In this way God created man in his own image, in the image of God created hehim; male and female created he them."So says Swami Sri Yukteswarji in his book, "The Holy Science".Haley Haynes---------Sarphod Tabalchi, you have raised some very pertinent questions, which clearly do away with the concept of an anthropomorphic just and merciful Father � one is reminded of the Epicurean Riddle:"Either God wants to abolish evil, and cannot; Or He can, but does not want to.If He wants to, but cannot, He is impotent. If He can, but does not want to, He is wicked.If God can abolish evil, and God really wants to do it, why is there evil in the world?"The irrational, the tissue of whose brain is of a coarse quality, will try to offer some very stupid explanations to this riddle, leaning on the spurious law of Karma.I am shocked to see educated people attach more weight to blind faith and vulgar superstition than to facts which lie in hand � this is something Charles Darwin had bemoaned as well. Raja Ram Mohan Roy had hoped that Western education wouldrid Indians of blind faith: he was wrong. Western education has succeeded only in creating a profusion of literate fools.I was reading some Indian Scripture in which there was mention of "the God who brings rain and the demons that withhold it" � this disgusted me so much that I just threw that useless book away. Science has done half the job to cure peoplefrom the disease of God and Religion; the other half can be achieved by reading Western Philosophy. I would definitely attach more weight to men of science and logic than to the buffoons who write about Gods and demons bringing rain. Ifbitten by a venomous snake, where would you rush to � a modern hospital stocking the anti-venom, or some dim-witted idiot who would parrot out Scriptures in an attempt to cure you? Until modern science developed snake anti venom, and manyother cures, our Scriptures and obsolete medical techniques were quite ineffective and useless when it came to most medical problems."God is Everything. God is a manifestation of all that is around us(trees, mountains, birds, animals, mankind)" � this quote by Catherine Anderson just proves Epicurus right � it means God is harmful bacteria, virus, and all the evil that pervades the world.If anyone really wishes to enlighten themselves, I suggest you stop reading trash and go for books by great men like David Hume and Arthur Schopenhauer.P Srivastava---Shree Hari Ram RamSrivastavaji, Namaskaar! Please share with us if you have read the Bhagavad Gita. (By read, we mean - not just superficially scanning...but questioning, inquirying and seeing if the answers are available in it)..... Simply speaking.... if we have not done DNA testing of our father... we are living in blind faith.... As we recollect - ARthur Schopenhauer was deeply influenced by the Bhagavad Gita, he has made comments to that effect. Education feeds the mind/intellect which are insentient. It is impossible to know, conquer, realize, attain the sentient essence (GOD, Consciousness, Presence) through insentient means. Ram Ram ------God is an Anglo-Saxon noun and refers to a Male (as opposed to Goddess), Creator Being. There is no provable God (or Goddess). As Hindus, what do we know? Tat Tvam Asi. This Mahavakya means that we are No-Thing (Tat). This Tat is also referred to as ParaBrahman and sometimes Nirguna Brahman. What can be said about Tat? Nothing. "Mouna vakya ParaBrahaman tattwam." Tat may also be defined as Om Tat Sat(chidananda). This Saguna Brahaman experience is provable. Energy/Light/Bliss is our Atmana. This we know. God we do not know. As Hindus, we have our Ishta Devatas and this good and this is personal. One does not (and cannot) have to prove the existence of our Ishta Devata. Thus, Hinduism is a monistic polymorphism and not the lesser understanding of Monotheism. Swami Param------Shree Hari Ram RamSwami Paramji, Kindly explain what exactly is meant by monistic polymorphism. Ram Ram------ is obvious that there is NO GOD. The characters attributed to GOD areOmnipresentOmnipotentMercifulAll Knowing.There is so much misery and injustice in this world that either God does not know it in which case he is not all knowing, or he knows and does not do any thing about it. In that case he is not merciful. Or he can not do any thing then he is not omnipotent.I take a recent case of a 10 years old girl being raped by her father. What was God doing?It has been said that the girl was being punished for what she might have done in her previous life. How can a merciful God punish a child of ten ? In any case what she did in her previous life could not have been done if God did not will it to be done. If we agree that it was a punishment for some act for previous life than the father can not be blamed for the this act. He was only an instrument in the WILL of God. Let us face it God is nothing but an inversion of Man to explain things he could not explain, create an absolute authority and may be give hope when there is nonearun sharma---Shree Hari Ram RamArunji... have you read the Bhagavad Gita? Paramatma is not the doer, nor a punisher ! There have been previous discussions on this subject... in Gita Talk...you can search by topic. Ram Ram----PRIOR POSTINGTo my beloved sadhaks,Where is God? Who has seen Him? How is God? How do I accept Him? What logic points towards God? Let us look at Gita 7/19"After taking many births and acquiring the human form and realizing that God is Everything, should such a knower (Jnanavan) surrender to Me, indeed such a great soul is a rarity. "Repeat such a great soul is a rarity. My question is how can one not see God, who cannot be aware of where He is, how He is, but to accept Him is a good place to start and how to do this is by establishing a direct affinity for God.Everything is God. God has in simple words, expounded to us the innermost secrets of the hearts of great souls of Vasudev Sarvam. God is Everything. God is a manifestation of all that is around us(trees, mountains, birds, animals, mankind)Bhagavan says(Gita 18/55)" After realizing my quintessence (Tattva) man immediately merges into Me."Those who want to attain God do so by Discipline of Action, Knowledge and Devotion.For more info on God realization go to Swamiramsukhdasjis site and read on how to attain God with humility.catherine andersen-------------------------Shree Hari:Ram Ram.By Grace of God these questions are on my computer:1. Where is God I have never seen Him? God is in your mind. You can't see God with your eyes as mental conceptions are not seen by us.2. Who has seen Him? Nobody ever declared he/she has seen God.3. How is He? Nobody ever described how is God.4. If I don't know how do I accept? If you don't know accept or don't accept, choice is yours.5. God is a term coined by elders to put moral shackles on us so that we may indulge in goodness. What harm is there if you indulge in goodness? Indulge in goodness or not, choice is yours.6. There has to be some basis for His existence. What are the logics which point towards the existence of God? from where to pick the thread? Existence of Existence (termed Tattva, Sattaa by Swamijee Shree Ramsukhdasjee) needs no basis for its existence. Existence of Existence is all logic and all illogic but they can't point towards Existence of Existence similarly as you can't mix water into water when you are under water only. You are the beginning and you are the end of the thread. Pick it up and go. You shall finish at the other end of thread and shall be surprised to experience that what you sought is the seeker. Vasudev: Sarvam. (Gita 7:19).If you conceive God, you fail to experience the experience as experience is experience only (Swamijee in God IS Everything page 2 last para "Similarly in this world, men, animals, birds, trees, mountains, stones, bricks, sand, lime, earth etc. are of diverse kinds, yet what resides intrinsically within, has no form and that formless essence is God".).Bandhu, if anything is easiest it is Realizing God (Existence, not any human with four hands etc they are NOT God as they don't reside in everything, they come and go.) Who is ever Realized as You can't deny your existence.Ram Ram.Kachcha Sadhaka Sarvottam.----5 Fallacies & Realities about God Fallacies* Ego Consciousness Realities of Self Consciousness1 Humans believe that God needs something. Humans know that God needs nothing. God is beyond needs and demands. 2 Humans believe that God can fail to get what He needs. Humans know that God can never fail to get what He does not need. He has no needs. God is his own measure beyond failures & successes. 3 Humans believe that God has separated them from Him because they have not given Him what He needs. Humans know that God has integrated them from Him because they are God in human form. God is beyond form and non-form as one Living Consciousness. 4 Humans believe that God still needs what He needs so badly that God now requires them, from their separated position, to give it to Him. Humans know that God never needs any thing from humans other that what they are and have. God is in human form. 5 Humans believe that God will destroy them if they do not meet His requirements. Humans know for God there is no destruction and creation but infinite manifestations of energy of Living Consciousness. Dance of Living consciousness is appearance & disappearance of Physical Universe. *Neale Donald Walsch (The New Revelations)Sushil JainPRIOR POSTINGHare KrishnaGod is worshipped in 3 forms:1. Attributeless-Formless (Nirgun-Nirakar)2. Attribute-Formless (Sagun-Nirakar)3. Attribute-Form (Sagun-Sakar)Goswami Tulsidasji has said"NIRGUN ROOP SULABH ATI SAGUN JAAN NAHI KOI""The attributeless form of Parmatma is very easy to understand butno one can know the form of Parmatma with attributes."The first form of Attributeless-Formless Pramatma can be proved bylogic of uninterrupted existence (akhand satta). The second form ofAttribute-Formless (Sagun-Nirakar) Parmatma can be proved by logicof conscious and sentient Creator, Sustainer and Destroyer.But the third form of Parmatma with form and attributes (Ram,Krishna, Shiva etc.) cannot be proved by any logic, rationale etc.They can only be believed with purport of Gita, Ramayan, Sadhak-Sanjivani etc.If anyone argues over Ram being God then questions like these willarise "In forest how did Lord Ram get deceived by a gold-deer? If Heis deceived then how is He Omniscient? Why did Lord take the help ofSugreev's army? If He takes help then how come is He Almighty?...."When Lord Ram killed Ravan's mighty brothers Khar and Dushan, Ravandecided to examine whether the Omniscient and Almighty Parmatma hastaken Ram-avatar. He kidnapped Sitaji (with disguise of an ascetic)by deceiving Lord with a golden-deer. Lord failed in the examinationand Ravan was successful in his evil plan, but what was the endresult? Lord Ram destroyed the entire clan of Lankan demonsalongwith Ravan.That is why Goswamiji has said"RAM ATARKYA BUDDHI KAR JAANI""Lord Ram cannot be known by intellect."Faith in Parmatma with form and attributes (known as Bhagwan) canonly be developed when one does satsang. Reading scriptures is alsoone form of Satsang.Hare KrishnaVarun P. PapruniaHare KrishnaDear Sarphod Uncle,I sincerely apologize to you and your family for the language I haveused. I thought you were just trying to outsmart us with yourintellectual prowess so I used the same ploy on you; but Sir you area true sadhak. Sadhanaji, Mikeji recognized you but because of my so-called cleverness I did not recognize you. Again my sincereapologies for the usage of harsh words and blunt language.Hare KrishnaVarun P. Paprunia------------------------------Om, God = generator orgniser destroyer.Do you see the air? Nosuppose you don't see the air then you can't see the energies in theair that sustain our body. Suppose you want to hold a grand partyof 5000 people continuing 15 days, then how much work you have todo, you will distribute your work among your relatives. Think ofGod is a organising 600 crores or more ( not only about earth butthink about whole universe). Think who has that Supreme organizingpower ! You or God. God is in every thing from atom to Everest.Suppose you made a car that each and every thing came from you meanseach part of car made from you, by you. That is God. He iscolourless, touchless, soundless, shapeless because he is supremeenergy. If you trust and have faith in God. you will trust ongod.this is the one kind of work of god. because hi is ruling onus.Whether you go to the church or any mandir or masjid, your needsby pleading to your superior� He is That. And you say uponfulfilling your wish - "thank God" What is that power that isfulfilling your needs? Whether small or a big one, it is fulfilledand often no by your effortHari Om,nilesh popat mali,-------------------------------PRIOR POSTINGTo Respected Sadhaks of this really divine , perhaps the only of itskind across the globe, Satsanga Group!It is me, Dear Brothers, with my Dear Begum Sahibaa respectfullythanking you all for gems of wisdom which you imparted to me and tothe world. An association of people like you, group like yours, isor can only be God willed. Indeed, with people like Vyasji, (extremely polished and never contradicting. Must be the one who hasseen/ touched the "dukhalayam" very closely, very wisely and wonover the same), Mike Keenor ( You are pride of the very humanity)Varun, ( I am sure he is younger than many of us- his impetuosity/quick reaction reflects that, but very clever and very organised-Refer Gita 16/1 - jnanayogarvyavasthitam- an ideal young follower)Pratapji Bhatt ( Spl regards for you, for not firing me back) , thatreal firebrand Dear Sister of all of us Shashikalajee ( What asharp discrimination you have been blessed with ! ), Mira Dassji (An impartial devotee /follower of Respected Swamiji RamsukhdasjiMaharaaj), Rajaji, Baiyaji and dozens like them, are the jewels ofthis divine forum. My heartfelt pranaams to Vineetji Sarvottam. Hiscomments were innocent and correct.Thanks AgainSarphod TabalchiRaseeli Rani Tabalchi--------------------------------PRIOR POSTINGDear Sadhak,Yes, Sadhakji, you are a Sadhak-a seeker of Truth,this is what myKrishna says--Chatur-vidha bhajante maam janh sukrutinorjuna!Aarto jijnasuj-arthaarthi jnaani cha bharatarshabha! (Gita 7 / 16)O Arjuna! There are four types of noble souls who worship Me : Theafflicted, the seekers of knowledge, the seekers of enjoyment andthe wise.Gigyasu - seekers of knowledge.The main barrier in not seeing God here and now is that you areusing wrong tool my dear.You want to see God through yr mind, whichitself is Asat.A traveller of Gyaan Marg, must know the differencebetween Sat and Asat.He must disconnect himself from everythingwhich is Asat(temporary, everchanging). He needs to drop/disconnecthimself from everything-the world, its relations, his own body,senses, mind, intellect, ego..... When everything is dropped thereremains NOTHING.Just Nothing...simply Nothing.....From that NOTHING emerges Peace, Love and Bliss. From that Nothingemerges EVRYTHING... This is the beauty of Gyaan Yoga.And the most wonderful,the most amazing truth about my belovedKrishna is---He(God) becomes whatever you want Him to be. When wesee HIM as our protector, He rushes to rescue us as in the case ofDropadi, when we see Him as our Friend, He becomes our friend as inthe case of Sudama, when we accept HIM as all powerful miraculousbeing, miracles start unfolding in our lives.When we see HIM in astatue, he becomes motionless. He is everywhere in all forms,andwithout forms too, just we are unable to see him due to our ownlimited vision.When we accept HIM as our Guide and Guru, like Arjuna did, and wishto see HIS Vishwaroopa, He bestow us divine vision and we see Him ineverything, everywhere. I see many people saying God does not exist,money is God..ect, etc. So what, He does not hesitate to become nonexistence for them, still showering His Love....No discrimination inHis regime.He just "IS". I love Swamiji the way He describes HIM. SomewhereSwamiji said-He IS or He IS NOT, this "IS" remains the same in boththe statement(nahi main bhi hai or hai main bhi hai).wow...Howblessed this human form is!!!How divine this forum is!!!Lets be Love, Peace and Bliss !Shivoham! Shivoham!!With lots of Love,A SadhikaSadhna Karigar------------------------------1. Where is God I have never seen Him? You cant see HIM as HE is anobject. Have you seen Saturn planet? How do you belive thatscientist? You belive based on Knowledge. In temples 2000 years oldthere are nine planets know as Nava Graha. How they saints knewwithout scientific proof.2. Who has seen Him? 100 `s of saints.3. How is He? HE is formless and with form or any form HIS devoteneeds.4. If I dont know how do I accept? If you dont know, try to know.Still your if you fail- It Gods will.5. God is a term coined by elders to put moral shackles over us sothat we may indulge in goodness. Why your parents put morals asshakles to put you good charactor. So is God put. Just understandit. If you think shackles you are mistaking. If you think guidanceyou will progress.6. There has to be some basis for his existence? What are the logicswhich point towards the existence of God? From where to pick thethread? Nine planets and earth are in space floating. Who made them?You want to make something you gather material and put your effortto make project. So there is someone who is behind all and yourthinking capacity. Otherwise could be a lay man.Jai Sri Krishnabaiya sathyanarayan------------------------------PranamGod exists. If you want solid evidence I recommend you searchon "milkmiracle" You will see for your self.bvmJai Shree Ram------------------------------Dear Mumukshus (those who yearn for Divinity), Namaste. For thosewho yearn for Divinity's Peak Experience, no such doubt arises; infact their question would be why shd they have doubt in God!Doubting God takes one nowhere.Trying to reach the divinity is the correct way. There is no proofof the dreams we have very regularLy. They don't 'exist' in thesense of all these existing objects, you see.WHERE IS GOD WHOM I DON'T SEE:Do you 'see' the radio waves, electricity, magnetism? Do you seelove, hatred, jealousy? Do they not exist? Why all shd be visible?WHO HAS SEEN HIM?A lot of people have 'witnessed' 'Him to whom the divinity hasrevealed 'itself'.WHO IS HE? - HOW IS HE LIKE?He is She and is That. One form for one thing is inapplicable inthat experience of visioning the Reality which is The Absolute amongthe experiences.IF I DON'T KNOW HOW DO I ACCEPT?The dead people, unborn people, people who are far away - you can'tsee them. Do you lose belief in such invisible all? Be honest inanswering these abstract questions.GOD IS A SCHAKLE . . . GOODNESS.God is not directly linked to morality, goodness, honesty, kindnessetc which we teach for our youngsters to whom we want good futureand for building in them the moral character which saves oursociety. All honest people won't see God; no dishonest person cansee God.THERE HAS TO BE SOME BASIS FOR THE EXISTENCE OF GOD. WHAT ARE THELOGICS FOR THE EXISTENCE OF GOD? FROM WHERE TO PICK THE THREAD?We do ask for proofs for the objective things only. God astranscendental baffles those objectives. There is no harm in thedisbelief about God. But missing a chance of His experience whileborn as human beings is to miss a great opportunity. We do all thosethings of happiness. enjoying etc for which we can afford. We canafford to have a Peak Experience in this human life. Why not try?If you surf the Youtube on the Internet, try among them thespiritual masters' sayings. Ramana Maharshi, NisargaduttaMaharaj . . there are scores of them who are the proofs of God.You may want to read Tony Parsons book, 'The Open Secret'.I am not glorifying him or anybody in this context. I wanted toshare with people who are seekers like me. I wish all our people thebest of luck during this Christmas and Happiness in the New Year.Dr Shastry--------------------------------1. Where is God I have never seen Him? You cant see HIM as HE is NOTan object. Have you seen Saturn planet? How do you belive thatscientist? You believe based on Knowledge. In temples 2000 years oldthere are nine planets know as Nava Graha. How they saints knewwithout scientific proof.2. Who has seen Him? 100 `s of saints. In Duryodhan Shaba when SriKrishna took Virat roop, everyone folded their hand and seen HIM asGod except Duryodhan who told it was illusion.3. How is He? HE is formless and with form or any form HIS devoteneeds.4. If I dont know how do I accept? If you dont know, try to know.Still your if you fail- It Gods will. Yasodha accepted Sri Krishnawith love and compassion, so she tie HIM up with rope to a roller.Duryodhan wanted to tie up Sri krishna who took Virat roop unable totie up. It is the way you accept.Jai Sri Krishnabaiya sathyanarayanPRIOR POSTINGJai HanumanI agree entirely with Usha Sridhar. Dear Sister! Keep writingregularly . You are precise, accurate and perfect. So is SisterAnita- absolutely correct and "really" .practical and therefore onthe path of Gita 7:19 ! Welcome Brother Wilson ! Welcome Ram Bhai !O Daddy the Great ! Let such "Divinity" continue flowing unto thisGT Group ! So Pleasing ! So unbelievable !! So many reasons toexclaim with pleasure- "Brilliant" !Thanks Sarphod ! How is your Begum Sahibaa ! It is a sin to make hercry- Get me ? SIN - I say! Do you understand what is sin? "Anguishof your soul" is most of the times " your sin" - also ! AlmostAlways!Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj would often say that what is the proofthat Mr X is your father - BASED ON YOUR PERSONAL/ INDIVIDUAL/REMEMBERED/EXPERIENTIAL-"KNOWLEDGE"?No body, come what may, has been able to "prove" in the past, norcan they do so in the present , nor will they be able to "prove"that in the future ! Nor can there be any possibility of provingthat. If you can't "prove" the existence of your even this father onearth, how can you prove the existence of your "eternal father"?Reason: "Self" Proven ! Obvious !! Beyond Mind/ Intellect/Ego !"Acceptance"/ "Faith" / "Belief" - is the only remedy. If some bodywants to argue on this - Come On !! Hats off to you BrotherWilson !! Please keep contributing and participating in thisSatsanga forum!Mike Bhaiyya ! I gleefully noted three things in your latestmessage -1 An Aussie !2 Clever 'little' dialogue!! ( Jeeva -Maya - Jagdish. Maya is in thecenter. Noted that Brother? Between the two ! )Above all -3 Flowers in the Sky !!!!(What an effort by You? What a research ! How well read , indeed !So difficult! Yet so obvious ! So handy ! So quick - within hours ofposting the 'little dialogue' ! So Self Proven ! So inaccessible !Yet so easily available !But available in the universe to whom ? Available why ? How timelyand exactly ?Sure, the poem was already existing in this creation / uiniverse fora long long time- it was not Mike Keenor made- but what about itsmanifestation !! )Thanks indeed ! Unbelievable! "DIVINE" !! Do you get us MrSarphod? - We are Sadhaks ! Only "Sadhaks" !Namaste JeeJee JeeShashikala---Dear Vyasji,You have answered beautifully. But, the problem is that Tabalchi jiis more interested in getting 'brilliant' and similar appreciatorycomments from others (as is evident from his second mail).Before trying to know God (Where is God I have never seen Him? isTabalchi ji's first question), he should explain what he is. If heknows about himself, then he will see God's smiling face. Again, theproblem is that Tabalchiji is depending on others even to know "koaham (who am I)"May I quote from Shankara ? "KASHTWAM KOHAM KUTAH AAYAATAH, KA MEJANANI KO ME TATAH" (who are you, who am I, from where have I come,who is my mother and who is my father).Kind regards,Suresh C SharmaPRIOR POSTINGHari OmOne who has thirst inside, only can see water. If there is nothirst, inspite of water being in your front, it is not noticed byyou. Similarly , one who has thirst for God only can "see" God, andone who has thirst for world only, "sees" the world.It is your desire which in fact determines what you can or can notsee- IRRESPECTIVE OF WHAT IN FACT EXIST OR DOES NOT EXIST.Because of your desire for the world only you see the world which inreality NEVER EXISTS. Because of your non-desire only you can notsee God who in reality ALWAYS EXISTS !!Want to see God? Mr Sarphod? Develop desire for Him !!Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B----------------------------Dear members,This is the first time I am writing on this forum - not because Ididnt wish to comment earIier, but only because I am too young inthis stage - by experience and by learning.However, looking at the questions raised below, I thought I shouldat least share my feelings:1.God is no external being - he or she is part of each one of us -all living beings. So please, do not try to explain to children thatgod is some type of other person. And therefore, each one of us hasthe responsibility to lead a life which moves towards positivity,looking at betterment, and not hurting people, beings by our act.Seeing GOD - we all have. Only some have realised him. He is in mymaid who comes to work each morning, he is in my child - who hugs meevery time I meet him, he is in my husband - who lives with me andhas made my life complete. I have seen him in the rickshaw walla -who stopped by me to offer me ride to office yesterday. I see himevery day in different forms - sometimes, I too do not realise thatit was him who smiled in the morning and made my day. Everytime youmeet a person who does good to you - he or she is a reflection ofGOD. So, see god in all and see all in him.2.The world is like stage (as Shakespears has said) - and all of usare in here to play a role - be it tree, human, animal, you and me.And so is a child here to play a role. All our roles are defined bythis supreme power, whom we call GOD.3. There are many happenings in our life which we humans are notable to explain - all this we credit to that UnKnowableforce/energy - GOD.Try to see GOD in your family - your parents, your collegues, yourneighbours, and all the people whom you meet - search for that lightin them and do a small good act to make them happy. GOD would bethere with you!Anita Sharma-------------------------Maybe my use of the word brilliant, can be misconstrued,a little tooAussie, it was intended as a exclamation of pleasure.I know you are playing the roll of 'devils advocate', as clearly youwould understand, Maya and Jeeva in Jee Jee Shashikalaji's cleverlittle dialog.Best to direct a single question to a Sadhak/Sadhaks.See Zen poem below:(Emptiness in full Bloom).Leaping from the Ledge of Infinite Regress,The Unmoved Mover fell into Formlessness:Pure silence echoed between the galaxies,Eons of eons vanished in a second,Withered trees bloomed in fires,Polar mountains melted, rivers went dry,Thusness scattered in sixty directions,Space became Time, time became things,Black Holes filled with Nirvana,A billion samadhi mirrors shattered,Galaxies snuggled within a single skull,Many became One, One only, only One.Then, the Divine Illuminatrix in All BeingsOpened Her clouded Eye, to see:Flowers in the Sky.With Respect and Divine Love,Mike Keenor--------------------------Hari Om.Respected sir,I've studied from my childhood that motheris our first GOd.We can see God only through our mother,father and Guru.Where is the proof that you came through your mother's womb?If you can explain how you passed through your mother with proof,I can explain with Krushna's Grace the true Krushna provided youhave the permission to see Krushna.Rest in my next.Hari Om.With Regards,Ushasridhar.--------------------------Jesus Says.I am the way, I am the Truth, I am the Faith. Please read the Bible.thanksWilson KochukunjuDear Mr. Sarfod & friends,Since the beginning of human civilization, the question whetherthere is a God (or Gods), has occupied the human mind. It has alsobeen answered by various people in various ways in all the ages.But, the question has persisted till this day.I have my own explanation. I emphatically say that Parmatma doesexist. The entire universe is within Him and He is also beyond theUniverse. He is so great and also so small that nobody can see Himwith his naked eye. He can only be realized. Regarding proof, everyliving being and every plant testifies His existence. With his super-intelligence, man has been able to do most amazing things andcreated wonders. But, man is still way behind in creating anythingthat is self generating. Every creation of God, on the other hand,is self-generating and self sustaining. Reproduction is a specialfeature of every species. Yet, every species has a life-time afterwhich it vanishes. Even this earth will meet its death some day. Wesee planets and stars dying and new ones coming up every day. Thisnever ending cyclic order of creation, recreation, assimilation andre-emergence is a glaring proof of His existence.Yours sincerely,Ram Bhai------------------------------Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!Varunji, I want to thank you so much for speaking out to Tabalchijiabout I being not judgemental at all. As a friend and a fellowseeker, I was suggesting, Tabalchiji to read as many times as neededto grasp the meaning or at least ask questions to clarify points.Most of us know that when we read or hear 2nd or 3rd time it makesso much difference in our understanding!I want to wish you the very best Tabalchiji. One day you may wake upand find all answers about Truth of God, this world and "you".All sadhakas have provided excellent answers/pointers!Wishing you the best of Xmas Holidays and New Year, my fellowsadhaks, I remain prayerful!Namaskar......Pratap Bhatt -------------------------------PRIOR POSTING-Shree Hari-Sarphodji,You know; the world as you see it, is a shadow of what it really is,I once heard it described as seeing the reflections of reality on theback of a cave wall, one has to turn around to see the glory of whatit is.Most people it seems, focus their whole lives looking at the falsereality reflected on the wall of the cave.Have we not all read about Yogis with extraordinary abilities? Isthis all lies, do such souls look on the doubters such as yourself,say nothing, smile or laugh as Lord Krishna laughed, they havenothing to prove , all the doubters have to do is turn around as itwere, to understand.One great soul that I admire was Swami Vivekananda, to me he seems tobe a man ahead of his time, a person of great intellect, and aspiritual giant. It was he that aroused the world to the wealth thatIndia had to give.11th September, 1893: 'Response to welcome' address:"Swami Vivekananda addressed the august assembly of seven thousandpeople starting with the words: "Sisters and Brothers of America...",and the whole of audience went into inexplicable rapture withstandingovation and clapping that lasted for more than three minutes......."If you consider you have a mind of sound reasoning, then maybe youcould read the yoga aphorisms, translated by that great Swami. (Ifyou require any translation).Why does your Lady weep, is it because she sees the anguish of yoursoul. No matter what you may say or truly think, you are in conflict,do you understand ? Jee Jee Shashikalaji has hinted at it, otherSadhaks have made the point also, things like why ask about thatwhichdoes not exist etc.Sadhaks have implied that they have been through that battle. Ihave,I will tell you this, how much you reach for Father, how much you cryfor him, the tears of anguish will then turn to tears of joy, whenyour heart breaks loose from prison that binds it.You may not understand what I am writing about, but one day you will.With Respect and Divine Love,Mike Keenor-----------------------------Dear Sadaks,I have not seen God yet. That is the reason I am not silent. The onewho has seen God remains silent. Let us not make tell Mr.SherphodVedanta/Upanashids.1.Where is God I have never seen Him? To see a program on TV, oneneeds TV Equipment, Power (electricity), and telecasting tower2. Who has seen Him? One who has turned his body equipment as atemple, Power of tuning (Craving to liberate) in mind, as mind haselectricity, magnatism, and telecasting tower (GOD) omnipresent.Just one has to tune to HIS frequency that is surrender.3. How is He? HE is benevolent to come in any form you meditate.4. If I dont know how do I accept? Go on saying any name of HIS.Eventually HE will tune to your frequency as HE did to Druva.Jai Sri Krishnabaiya sathyanarayan----------------------------Dear SirphodI made a posting on your question. There was no attempt by me or forthat matter by any body (from the posts I see) who could give youanswers like you might be expected.If you want to learn about God (accept or otherwise is a differentissue) you need to spend time and energy. You can select a Guru whocan help you. I do not see from your postings you have thisexpectation, but the one below.But if your goal is to dispute existence of God, there could beanohter forum that must be working on such attempts.By the way you can come out with your real name.Venu KomanduriPRIOR POSTINGHi Sarphod Tabalchi,1. Where is God I have never seen Him?It seems you never tried to see God. Seeing God is not possible byour physical eye. Those who have an insight of God only can see God.If you try sincerely seeing God is would not be a problem. There aremany ways prescribed in our scriptures. First, Have faith in it.Then after you never deny God.2. Who has seen Him?I see Him always and communicate with Him. Not only with God, I talkto birds and animals. I can understand them and they understand me.3. How is He?He is always Happy. He never deny anything. He never denied myexistence. He wants everyone happy.4. If I dont know how do I accept?Dont reejct anything. Accept everything as it is. Never expectanything in your way accept everything as it is. Keep God in yourmind if you dont know God. Chant Oh God Oh God Oh my God wheneveryou want deny God.5. God is a term coined by elders to put moral shackles over us sothat we may indulge in goodness.If you know this much of God you should not deny God.6. There has to be some basis for his existence? What are the logicswhich point towards the existence of God? From where to pick thethread?First you ask your Parents who are patient to teach you the basicconcept of God existence. Once you have prerequesites to learn GodGod comes to you automatically. Be Patient. Can you ever see theelectricity passing through a wire. A bulb is shining, Have you everenquired about the electricity which illumines the bulb? Think aboutTV., Fridge, Air Conditioner etc., etc. whcih can not functionwithout electricity. Even you can not ask these questions withoutthat power unseen in you. My dear beleive in God is far easier thandenying God.Lovingly, Krishna (Shobha) Das------------------------Wonderful testing of sadhaks by Tabalchi jiWe all must thank him for the excellent questions and for giving anopportunity to better our understanding in the spiritual domain.All questions have very easy answers. Excellent expression by allsadhaks...in answering these.But it is very difficult to satisfy the questioner on the answers.since these very questions cloud everything....and become obstaclesto understanding the truthsince it is about knowing the questioner first............knowing orseeing God comes much later.....It has happened to perhaps all of us in the beginning and we mayhave gone through this period.But if we are able to contemplate on the questions with someguidance, question begin to dissolve/disappear........and theanswers start looking meaningful........So, Tabalchi ji and the begum sahiba could start with contemplatingexercise on the questions firstfor example:Q1 Where is God? ----contemplate on......where it should be? whatcould be the place where it could be,why it can not be hear with us?Q2 Does God exist? ---- Contemplate on.....Who am I? ask yourselfrepeatedly who am I?Q3 Who has seen him is irrelevant? My seeing is important socontemplate on questions - Why I don't see the God? Can I see it?What could it look like? What should it be?Q4 If I don't know how do I accept? Contemplate on What I don'tknow? Do I know all? How can I know more?Q5 Any other word other than God could be used for it. Contemplateon: Is goodness gives happiness? Are moral values important? Whywe need to fear the word God to be good?Q6 Contemplate on questions: What is basis of its existence? Whatis the basis of our existence? What God must exist? Why prophetshave to come to this world? Who are these prophets?See what comes as answers. It is a good learningexercise......answers are within and we must practice to startlistening.....everyone has to do this for himself..............bestwishes......Thank you....Sushil Jain----------------------------Dear Sarphod:I have similar questions that you have.Following is the status of those questions (mind you not answers):1. Just beacuse I can not see GOD, that does not mean that there isnothing like GOD which exists, since there are so many things thatexist and yet I can not see (ex: Air, Gases and so many unknowns tomankind yet)2. Same way as I have the question on the existence of GOD, I alsohave the question on my question itself, i.e. I can not prove thatthere is no GOD either.3. Say suppose some one suddenly shows me the GOD, what are my testsand verifications to accept him/her/it as GOD. Do I have all thosetools, a big NO (I am not sure about you)4. Even if I have all those tools to test the existence of GOD andall the tests are proved positive, then is it going to help me. Thatmeans, do I have the right objective to find out this very unusualthing called GOD? What is that single biggest thing that isbothering me about finding out this GOD? Does it have theseriousness to find out the GOD? If it does all the above questionsshould be answerd positively. Or else, I am not sincere in my quest.5. I might not have all these tools right now, yet I have the questto know about the existence of GOD, then I do not jump in to quickconclusions like "There is no GOD, this forum is not DIVINE, etc.,"because that conclusion neither helps me nor taps in to the rightsources of knowledge. I will be just fooling myself saying "I askeda question which this forum is not able to answer"Just for the record, I remember in the whole known history ofmankind, only one person (Sri Ramakrishna Paramahansa) has admittedto have seen GOD and was ready to show GOD to the one who wasearnestly with deepest intellectual anxiety and sincerity (SwamiVivekananda).The one who has shown and the one who was shown the GOD did not havequestions. The SOURCE and the SINK are in the perfect state of mind,one to give and the other to receive. Am I in the equanimity levelsof Swami Vivekananda? I don't think I am and let me know if you are.If you think you are, just stay there with sincere hope, ARAMAKRISHNA will happen to you and your intellectual quest might befulfilled.If not I need to get there before I start looking for GOD. Till suchtime, GOD is tentative truth for me.With a hope it might help you,Sincerely,Krishna (devangam krishnamurthy)Hare KrishnaSarphod, you have praised me by saying "I am very good". FYI! I wasnot entertaining you but I was questioning YOUR very existence. Youdon't have any doubt in your existence still you cannot prove it.Why so?? Have you thought over it?? If you can prove it (with yourlogic/rationale) then why don't you do it?Mikeji called you brilliant (I wonder why) but he has also calledyou inflexible. But I think you have not noted that. He, Vyasji,Pratapji and others have also given many points. You should thinkover it, compare it with your logic and then prove it wrong. But forthis one need guts, because you will have to keep aside yourprejudices to think over others' points. Even if you are not able toprove us wrong it does not mean that we can make you accept God, wecan only give logics/rationale.No one can force anyone to accept God, especially those who do notrespect their father. If you cannot respect your father than how canyou accept and respect the biggest father (Param-PitaParmeshwar).Your father has deserted you and your wife also seems tobe upset with your adamant attitude, but you still don't have anyshame in admitting it. Rather than introspecting over your attitudeyou are defending it.Pratapji has not passed any judgment; it is you who is passingjudgments. Mike is best, Varun is very good, Vyas NB is making methink. If these are not judgements then what is it? Pratapji hascorrectly pointed out that you are not reading posts with an openmind.You have posted these questions only because your wife has directedyou to this group. This is the biggest problem because you are notinterested in knowing or learning anything, you are only askingthese questions just for the sake of it, just for a mere formality.Mrs. Sarphod, please don't insist your husband to post questions. Heis only wasting our time and also don't reveal him anything aboutGita, because if you do so you will unnecessarily incur sin (Gita18.67)You cannot see God or feel His presence but you definitely feel yourexistence as "I AM", right? Then why can't you prove it with yourlogic. I have asked 3 questions w.r.t. your existence but did notget any reply.Hare KrishnaVarun P. Paprunia---------------------Jai HanumanMr Sarphod ! So you do not think or talk or desire regarding "flower of sky"- because it does not exist. You yourself said that.You can think/desire/talk about only that thing which exists.Now this is the biggest proof. You thought about God. You talkedabout God. You desired to know about God. You raised questions inthis forum about God. How can you do that- if God does not exist?If you can do that then why did you not talk about "flower of sky"?As a law you can desire about only that thing which exists.Answer now! To the point only. ONLY to the point.You said yourself that you would believe in your parents even ifthey were dead immediately after your birth, because there is abasis. The presence of yourself itself is an indicator of theirexistence. True. Now go backwards. Presence of your parents meansyour grand parents were there. Go backwards and keep going. In theend you will find one male and one female. Who were their parents?God is "Param Pita" - our eternal father.Clear?Namaste JeeJee JeeShashikala ----------------------Hari OmYou wanted as to what is sample of God. Answer as given by Varunjiis correct. You , yourself, are "sample" of God ! Because like God,you are also permanent and faultless. Everybody "experiences" that -I EXIST. ( You talked about experiencing- I am talking aboutexperience only) . Do you have any doubt Mr Sarphod that you are notexisting ? You never have any doubt on this. You never conduct anytest to determine whether you exist or not. You neverexperience/feel that - I DID NOT EXIST. About past you may saythat "I don't know", but you can't say "I didn't exist" ! How canyou say so?Why can't you say? Because you have never perceived your"self" tobe non existing. Non existence of your"self" has never come intoyour experience. Even in respect of the daily occuring of deepsleep, your experience never suggests that at that time you were nonexistent. But at the same time you experience directly theabsence of ego, intellect, mind and body etc., in the deep sleep.So you exist.So He exists.Now you are constantly experiencing changes/temporariness in yourbody. Who can experience that? Only that element (Self) which ispermanent and changeless and who is looking separately canexperience so..So you are permanent. You are witness. You are changeless. You arenot body. You exist both with or without body. You exist.Similarly God is also permanent. God is also witness. God is alsochangeless. God exists both with or without body. God exists.So you exist. At present you are existing Mr Sarphod Now in yourbody. In which part of the body you are existing Mr Sarphod? Inwhich part of the body you are not existing Mr Sarphod? In fact youare existing everywhere in the body.God exists everywhere in the universe as you exist everywhere inthe body.Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B------------------------------By summery of GITA: "Tat Twam Asi" or 'That You Are'This logic is explained by Many in different way, as Jesus : "Keepyour self as pure as a Temple, so that GOD can reside in you"As the world today is more scientific, we require proof by ourSenses.No machine can prove Logic.By psychologist EEG machine shows that Yog has a point when we gainenergy from vast outer energy when we Join our inner energy during ameditative state.Todays scientific terms were not expressed before. So we can saypositive Energy in us and arround is GOD.This GOD creates and increases, but the negative energy will growonly to destroy and eliminate named 'devil' !The different State of Mind or Self is depicted in the Epics ofRamayana and Mahabharata by the characters playing in the theatre ofthis World.The Conditions of Heaven and Hell are also due to this state of self.'Tat Twam Asi' in definition of GOD as 'Bramah-Vishnu-Maheshwar' isalso what we see in us.Psychological mind as Male-Female has in us as a Child, Learning andCreating with help of 'Sarswati-Bramah'. Then as we are in ourYouth, we Earn and Run our life with the help of 'Laxmi-Vishnu'. Atthe end of life our Old age, Eliminate and Destroy many beliefs withthe help of 'Shakti-Shiv'. Thus we prepare our self for the nextbirth. The Energy, called 'spirit' by many, is indistructible andchange form. We can ralise it and can even see as Vivekananda(nonbeliever of statue) was shown by Guru Ramakrishna(ardent idolworshiper). The idol is the Mirror to see our self !--RegardsSwapan PURKAYASTHA --------------------------------PRIOR POSTINGDear Sarphod:I adore your persistence to what you think is right - that is a goodquality to seek truth. At the same time, I am a bit disappointed inits lopsidedness! It is not clear what you want, frankly.I have two questions for you: Are you afraid of "God"? Do you urgefor "God"?If "YES" to any of these questions, you have a problem. You can'tstick to your current logical conviction. It is obvious that yourcurrent logical conviction irrespective of its self-proclaimedexcellence is JUST NOT DOING ITS JOB :(. Your logical provess canclaim accolades ONLY IF it removes your fears and quench yourdesires.If not removal, at least a nominal reduction in their intensity iswarranted ... if your intellect is working straight.If "NO" to any of these questions, I see a bigger problem. Why areyou confusing yourself with these questions. That "NO" becomesmeaningless just because you are incapable of letting the veryquestions go! The very reason you are raising these questions provethat you are infested either by fear or by desire or by bothregarding "God". THAT IS EXCELLENT!Then, it is "YOUR" primary responsibility to address the same. As Imentioned earlier, your current intellect is incapable of helping youout. Then, you have to make a shift in your thinking to inspect theignorance harbored within. Pardon me for calling it ignorance. But,the fact is ... it is. Inherent fears and desires can never let anindividual happy. They create the turbulence within in terms ofthemselves. The existence of miseries is proof enough that we are notapplying our intellect in the right direction. After all, it iscommon sense that we do everything ONLY FOR ONE REASON - to behappy. I am sure you agree with it.The question is are you happy with these questions as such or are youreally interested in a possible solution. If you are happy with thesequestions, be happy. You can never get the solution though! If youreally need a solution, QUESTION the very questions. That is the onlyway out left for you to be happy. Do you have any other choice? Ifyou have, please pursue. Being happy is the bottom line of allactions ... being happy ... being happy but nothing else.Nobody can instruct you what God Is! You have to figure it outyourself.I don't know who misled you that this or anything specific "is adevine forum" as if anything else is not! If you seek divinity,everything is devine. If not, some may claim "divinity" as if therest is not. Please do not get trapped into such notions ... if youreally want to seek clarity regarding your question. Question yourquestions ... TRUTHFULLY. You will see the end of the tunnel.Again, PLEASE DO NOT EXPECT OR INSIST FOR EXPLICIT INSTRUCTIONSREGARDING GOD. YOU WILL NOT GET ANY ANSWER ... UNLESSS ... YOU SEE ITWITHIN YOURSELF! The only suggestion I can make is ... look for ITwithin. Because, looking out all these years has seemingly remainedfutile! There is no point in digging into others' psyche when mine isnot receptive enough. If I insist to continue, I can guarantee myselfof more confusion to come!! Because ... GOD cannot be held within any"psyche" as such.Anyway, just few suggestions to think about ... think about it if youwant ... ONLY IF YOU WANT.All The Best.Respects.Naga Narayana PRIOR POSTINGDear "Sadhaks" (?)Why my simple questions are not getting answered. Shashikalajeeasked me some questions, instead of replying to me. I , upon theadvice of my Begum Saahiba humbly replied to her. Now instead ofresponding to me, she has given a conversation between a son and hismother. My Begum is insisting to me that I should again and againread that. OK I will do that. But let me answer her anotherquestion. I have not desired to smell "flower of sky" , because itdoes not exist. Sometimes I feel that both my Begum Sahibaa and youSadhaks have lost mind. What a funny question Shashikalajee hasasked. How can I desire or talk or know about a thing which doesn"texist? This is my basic fundamental and solid argument. Vyas N B isgiving indicators which require me to think. I am thinking. But thebest among you is Mike Keenor. He told me to remain solid. Headviced me to remain tenacious, merciless and hang on. I am hangingon. But then why Vineet Sarvottam told me lies? Varun Paprunia gavehim a fitting reply. Varun - you are very good. This Pratap Bhattis rebuking me. Why? What is my fault. On one hand you are simplygiving me round round answers. On other hand you are passingjudgement. Is this a conduct of a sadhak. Please reply to me. Orsay - none of you have capacity to answer my simple questions. MyBegum Sahibaa has already started crying. Have mercy on her atleast. But Mike praised me. He called me "brilliant".Waiting for answers.Sarphod Tabalchi---------------------------We all struggle with these questions. The answers I found logical isthis: There is something beyond mind and matter. Some will call thatsomething Omnipotent, Omniscient, Omnipresent. Others will call itrandom nothing. Another question one hears is why do I want to knowThat Something. To Know, or to Control it? Here in lies the paradoxand answer: If it is to know only: He is right there with you,within you: The Life, Love Peace. If it is to control so that wecontrol our surrounding: That is the struggle of Ego. Arjuna had tosee the Universal form to get over the final hurdle.Jay Shree Krishna.Hemendra Parikh-------------------------------Dear devotees of Lord Krishna,The discussion is interesting. I learned the gita much better afterseeing the life experience of a realized lady, who had darshan ofLord Krishna ( first darshan of Lords feet after chanting a slokafrom 10 th chapter of Gita for 30,000 times continuously for 30days ). Her conversations with the Lord have been recorded inTamil, and can be shared with the group if interested.With kind regards,Sincerely,P.Vivekanandan-------------------------------Try Brahmacharya ( the vow of celibacy in thought, word and deed, bywhich one attains Self-realisation or reaches Brahman) and you willsee for yourself the value.The Srutis declare: "Naayam Atma balaheenena labhyah - This Atman isnot attainable by a weak man." In the Gita you willfind: "Yadichhanto brahmacharyam charanti - That desiring whichBrahmacharya is performed" (Chap. VIII-11). "Trividham narakasyedamdvaram nasanamatmanah; kamah krodhastatha lobhastasmad etat trayamtyajet - O Arjuna! Triple is the gate of the hell, destructive ofthe Self; lust, wrath and greed: therefore let man renounce thesethree" (Chap. XVI-21). "Jahi satrum mahabaho kamarupam durasadam -Kill this powerful enemy, passion, by the observance ofBrahmacharya" (Chap. III-43).If we are determined to attain the goal of life by leading a purelife, we must keep this mind busily engaged in Divine thoughts,concentration, meditation, study and service of humanity.It is difficult to eradicate lust. But you need not despair even abit. Have faith in God, in His Name and in His grace. Lust cannot becompletely rooted out of the mind except by the grace of the Lord.You are bound to succeed if you have faith in Him. The Divine Graceis needed. God helps those who help themselves.Until man continues to cling to worldliness, Paramatma cannot begrasped by him.You can read more about this in the "Easy Steps to Yoga" by SriSwami Sivananda.chirag almoula--------------------------------PRIOR POSTINGDear Sadhakas, Namaste!Tabalchiji, with all the respect for you and questions, I may pointout that no one can make anyone see anything let alone God if thatperson doesn't want to see. It seems like you may be insistent uponseeing God in the way you want to see.Please forgive me if I am wrong, but as a friend I am saying. Itseems like you may not have read the postings with open mind, withthe desire to know the truth. Open mind doesn't mean accepting, itmeans you must give a fair reading/hearing and then asking pertinentquestions or raise doubts based on what is read. Here your responsesindicate you have decided that God cannot exist for you if youcannot see or have some logic to prove God's existence. One has tosee that "seeing God" means deep understanding of intuitive naturein this context where mind being limited cannot comprehend. It hasto be prepared to be open. Our conditioned mind is incapable ofgrasping truth.Some of us provided solid logic, but it still fell short to make yousee the pointers.I said one cannot say "I don't see God" without knowing what God heis looking that he cannot find. One has to know what one wants tosee, right? One can say "I don't know God, tell me what/where Ishould look, and how to recognize". It is different than show meGod, right?Once again, God is the Conscious/Intelligent Existence as reflectedin our experience of "I am" right now as you read these words. Infirst posting, dialogue was used to illustrate it as a solid proofone cannot deny.There are ways to experience God for which senses-mind-intellect isnot capable like they are for knowing objects. Nevertheless, thereis proof of God more reliable than that.But this point didn't make any impression.I request you with humility to re-read responses again and see whathappens!Namaskar..............Pratap Bhatt-------------------------------Hare KrishnaOkay Mr. Sarphod,Let's put God's existence out of equation for a moment and onlydiscuss about sample/logics/rationales w.r.t. YOUR existence.I AMWell, you don't have any doubt in your existence, right? Your bodyhas changed and it is rapidly changing every second. But Mr.Sarphod, is you also changing with the body? You are certainly notchanging with it because if you were changing then who would haveknown the change in body? You are that changeless element who knowsthe change in body. Isn't it? Childhood, youth, old age are thechanging phases of the body but you are that changeless element whois witness to all these changes. It is a law that only a changelesselement can perceive the ever-changing element. My question - Whatis the basis of your never-changing existence? If you considerbody's existence as your existence then you are defying all logic,because body is changing every second!!!I and MINEIt is a law that whatever is mine, it is never I. For example youconsider your house, car, wife, children etc. as mine but you neverconsider them as I. But in the case of body you say 'my hands, mylegs, my stomach, my ears, my eyes, my throat etc.' andsimultaneously you also consider it as 'I' e.g. I am not feelingwell. You establish two transversal relationships with the body,that of 'I' and 'MINE'. Whichever thing is mine it is always apart(separate) from you, and that thing which is separate from you, howcan it be I? This body is also apart from you but still you call itas I. Is this logical?Mr. Sarphod, now I wish to see you. Can you show me yourself???Ohh... please don't show me that body which you claim it as mine. Iwant to see that Mr. Sarphod who claims the body as mine. In otherwords, I want to see that element which you refer to as I?Before that I am eager to know whether you have ever seen yourself.According to you anything that exists is perceptible. So Mr.Sarphod, with which instrument have you seen yourself?If you have not seen yourself then, well ..... do you exist ?????And at last one more question- Whose name is Sarphod - body oryourself?Mr. Sarphod, with your logics/samples/rationales etc., first prove1. Your existence.2. The basis of your existence.3. The instrument with which you have seen/felt your existence.Then we will also discuss about God's existence....As Sarphodji is contemplating over his existence, in the mean time,those sadhaks whose faith in God has dwindled with his questions,they are requested to read this Sadhaka postingsadhaka/message/2108Hare KrishnaVarun P. Paprunia-------------------------------Jai Hanuman(Shrimad Bhagvad Geeta- Marathi Edition- By Saint Gyaaneshwarji-Chapter 13- Kalyaan- By Narainduttji Gaur )Jeeva ( J) (We all- as referred in BG 15:7) :Mom pls tell me , when I was born?Maya , Mother Nature, Prakrati, Illusion (As referred in BG 7: 13/14)( M ) :( Irritated) What non sense! Is it some thing to be told? (By a Momto Son?)J: If mother doesn't tell, who will?M: How to tell you? I came only after you !J: Typical Mom ! Means- I came first and then you? Surprising? Isn'tit?M: You won't understand. Be silent and sleep!J: Come On ! First me ..! And then You ...!! (How can it be?) Plstell me the story ! Please !!M: I told you. You won't understand! Many big people even could not.J: Ok ! Then my Father can let me understand. Take me to Him, please.M: ( Curtly) Stop this song of Father, Father. Your Father is Fatheronly for the name sake.In fact, I have to do every thing.J: Does He not do anything?M: What can He do? He is old, ancient, poor fellow (eternal) ! Thentotally actionless! Absolutely non-doer! Neither hands, nor legs,nor eyes, nor ears! Nothing in fact! Look Kid ! Whatever colour ,form etc of the world which you are seeing is my miracle, my form,my competence, my work ! Ok? Your Father has neither any form, norany beauty. What beauty He can impart to the world?J: But all say that He is the real Creator. See Mom! Whatever is myFather, He is my Father! Ok? His insult...??M: Insult! What insult? Whose insult? One who does not have anycaste or creed, any family or varna, any city or village- what canbe His respect or disrespect?J: How bad He will feel, if He listens to what you are saying?M: Even if He gets annoyed, what can He do? One who neither moves,nor walks, nor travels, nor laughs, nor cries, nor speaks, neitherany juice, nor any taste, nor any play !!! This entireexhibition/show I run, Dear Son !!J But out there on Gate (of the circus) His name is written, O Mom !!M: Ultimately you will take side of your Father only. Afterall youare His son!J: O Mom of the Universe! Why did not you put name of yours on thefront gate of this Great Circus? ( The world)M: How to put my name. This is the real trgedy. You won'tunderstand, Son. I, the creator and controller of uncountableuniverses can not do any thing by my name!! (Ramcharitmanas- 5/21/4)J: Don't be sad and sorry Mom! What is the matter?M: It is very secret, Son! If by seeing my banner outside the gate,if somebody wants to meet with me, he will be disappointed. Son!Please understand my pain. One is lazy ( does nothing), has noorgans, is actionless- those who want to search such (an element)person , they search Him merely by His name! (Ramcharitmanas-1/26/2). But to me, even when I am controlling entire sentient andinsentient world, if some body wants to search, CANNOT find! Cannotsearch.J: Why not Mom?M: (With tears in her eyes) Because, in reality, I don't exist. I amfalse. I am asat. I am non existent. My "not being" is my "being".Whatever is not- I am that. I am no-thing.J: And whatever is there, that is who? Who is that?M: He is your Father, Son!J: (In mind, talking with himself only, Son thinks/says - Hats offto you Mom! When you don't exist, then this is the scene of theworld that even Lord Shiva , Brahma are afraid of you -Ramcharitmanas 7/71/8- had you existed "actually" Mom then.....)O my No-thing Mom! When you don't even exist , then on whose poweryou run this circus called the world?M: What to tell you, Son? I can tell you only this much that, ofWhose a mere flicker of eyebrow, I do rule the uncountableuniverses, I can't dare/ don't have courage to face Him. I do runthis circus only on His strength.J : O My Unconquerable Mom! My hundreds of Pranaams to you. Blessme , O Mom! So that I may get my Father!!While bowing and doing Pranaams to his mother, Jeeva becametranquilised and then in the background divine music played-"MAAMEVA YA PRAPADYANTE, MAYAMETAM TARANTI YE "(BG 7:14)He was He only!Namaste Jee.Jee JeeShashikala--------------------------------Shri Hari-My dear Sarphodji,A few points to consider, I have said I have been touched by theDivine,(just one way of putting it), such Grace is life changing, Icould be lying or be mad,(I tell the truth), but I know just byreading the things fellow Sadhaks have written that I AM NOT ALONE.Some people come to Bhagwan with ease and joy others take the path offire so to speak, (the hard miles).In the west there is an expression,'The Dark Night of The Soul', andyes! If it is known in the west it is most absolutely known in theIndian Traditions.(I think Arjuna's predicament reflects that),I willstay using the terminology to which I am most familiar.You say you are deserted, you are not deserted, the Brethren have notdeserted you, and in the Darkest Moment of the Soul, there is a lightshining, that light comes from 'That', which will wash away youtears, 'That' which will break your heart so that you can bemended. Your arguments are not solid dear Brother, not to those thathave felt the embrace of The Beloved. Your inflexibility, combinedwith your determined search, may well introduce you to 'The DarkNight...', the very ONE you rebuked the most, will be the one thatrescues you. I speak from experience not from books.With Respect and Divine Love,Mike Keenor PRIOR POSTINGHari OmIf sadhaks can concentrate on giving short pointers / rationalewhich establishes the existence of Supreme Power it will help allin being definitive, have reference material and it will alsostrengthen faith. Ego, Intellect and Mind don't let you agree thateasily. And who knows who may need in the coming turbulent era ofKaliyug, that is lacking in faith and belief. Let us get united.From discourses of Swamiji Ramsukhdasji Maharaj (Taat Shree), whom Ihave solely relied on for a number of years -Every human being wants the following:1) To "live for ever". This is desire for SAT (existence). Fear ofdeath is the indicator of that desire.2) To know every thing. No one wants to be unknowlegeable. This isdesire for CHIT (Knowledge).3) To be happy. No one wants to be unhappy. This is desire forANANDA.Any doubt Mr Sarphod? Now if there is a desire then the element tofulfill that desire must also be there. There must be some one /some element which enables you to "live for ever", to be all knowingand to be ever blissful. Had such an element not existed, we wouldnot have had the desire for the same.Paramatma is SAT-CHIT-ANANDA.(Sachchidananda)Raam! Raam!! Raam!!!To be continued.Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B------------------------------Dear Tabalchi ji,According to J. Krishnamurti "modern so called educated" people wanta little bit of intellectual amusement and therefore they indulge inmeaningless discussions about God and such matters. God cannot bediscussed in this manner, because That Absolute Truth (giveIt/Her/Him any name) is beyond description.Your all the six questions are like the enquiries of a "fullstomach" tourist without an iota of appetite going through the menu,or reading it aloud with his co-friends. If you are really thirstyyou will not indulge in such childish questions about water, butwill try your best to drink it.I suggest you read Uncommon Wisdom and other books by Dr Capra (aphysic scientist) who has quoted from our Sanskrit literature aboutGod, or read A Brief History of Time by Hawking Stephens (well knownexpert on dark hole and universe) to know the concept of time andspace. At least do go through some writings by Nobel laureate DrEdington (a scientist). Only then, you can be a little serious aboutexploring the great Absolute Truth. Become "jyan-vijyan-triptah" andonly then we can walk together on this spiritual quest.Regards,Suresh C. Sharma------------------------Sir,You are asking the oldest question ever being asked. See aroundyou, a sperm has made you upto approximately 6 feet. Who designedthis project and process. Your father and mother only are tools.Inquire within and get the answer.surender syal--------------------------------Mitro,Why has this God become famous as "HE" why not "she" or "IT"or "Nothing"? Today's generation will not believe in gibberishbakwaas . The paradox is every religion, every saint says that Godis ONE. But even within Hindus philosophy we see thousands of gods(many names and forms). If God is One then why all the differencesand the fights? How come? Ramchander Homma------------------------------I agree with Luca Brasi that I should be fairly replied. I haveasked a lot of questions. I want proof/logic and I want to know Howis that Supreme. I want sample. I want rationale. My Begum Saahibaaalso told me that I am head breaker like your Shashikaljee told me.But I never agreed with her so far. I never admitted this version.I am not head or skull breaker. My name suggests that I am mindfixer. Any way how the name matters? I am what I am. I accept myparents because even if I dont remember my birth, they rememberthat. They know that I am their child. I can see them. I can feelthem. I can experience them. I can recognise them. That is why theyare my parents. Where is God? How can I accept God on the groundsthat since I did not know my parents at the time of birth and Iaccepted hence I should accept God also. Children are children. Theydont understand. But I am adult. I understand. My Begum Sahibaacould not satisfy me and hence she asked me to get in touch with youShe said you will satisfy me.I checked with her that I am notsatisfied even after, because I have MOST SOLID arguments, thenwhat? Even my father deserted me because he could not satisfy me.She said such situation will not arise. If I cant see , I cantaccept. Prove to me how one can accept without seeing or feeling orexperiencing or logic or rationale or basis. At least I should feelor experience. Even if my parents were dead at the time of birth,still I would accept that because how can I come without them onthis earth. What is your answer? Pratap or Vineet or Mike orShashikala. My Begum Sahibaa said few things regarding observationsof Vineet also. Please reply- Sadhaks of this selfproclaimed "Divine" site. Dont go by my name. Even my BegumSaahibaa complains regarding my name. What can I do regarding myname Jee?Sarphod TabalchiPRIOR POSTINGHare KrishnaSarphodji,Not only can Parmatma be an individual he can also be a fish(Matsya-avatar), a tortoise (Kachchap-avatar), a pig (varaha-avatar),a half lion-half man (Narsimha-avatar) and what not!!!According to Gita, not only can a devotee see God but also know Himand also enter into Him.Arjuna saidO universal form, O thousand-armed Lord, I wish to see You in Yourfour-armed form, with diadem on your head with club, wheel, conch andlotus flower in Your hands. I long to see You in that form. (11.46)Sanjaya saidThe Supreme Personality of Godhead, Krishna, having spoken thus toArjuna, displayed His real four-armed form and at last showed Histwo-armed form, thus encouraging the fearful Arjuna. (11.50)Lord Krishna said:My dear Arjuna, this form of Mine you are now seeing is verydifficultto behold. Even the demigods are ever seeking the opportunity to seethis form, which is so dear.Neither by the study of Vedas, nor by penance, nor by charity, noreven by rituals can I be seen in this form (with four-arms), as Youhave seen Me.O valiant Arjuna, through single-divided devotion, however, I can beseen in this form (with four-arms), known in essence and even enteredinto.My dear Arjuna, he who performs all his duties for Me, depends on Me,is devoted to Me, has no attachment, and is free from malice towardsall beings, reaches Me. (11.52-55)Please give special attention to the last 2 verses. This will answeryour question of knowing and seeing God.Yes, I have also read the same in Swamiji's book which your wife hasstated. I consider it to be true because I believe in Swamiji'swords.Hare KrishnaVarun P. Paprunia------------------------------Hari OmNo! Sarphodji. Those who want to learn should read carefully andshould learn also to be patient. All sadhaks upto now have givenexcellent observations. I have also given you logics/pointers andwillcontinue to give you till you get satisfied. I agree with Luca thatthere must be logics/rationale existing. It is another matter, as MrVineet stated, that they are pointless once you proceed ahead. Butstill questions are questions and your insistence , though, odd butstill should be respected. Your "Begum Sahibaa" appears to havedirected herself to peace. I wish you understood the hidden affectionin the in the message of Mike Keenor to you. Here are morelogics/pointers to you:3. In life, we always find a higher person than ourselves. In everyfield a higher person than one is existing. See around you, you willfind this statement to be true. Even the President of USA can not say"I am the Highest". Always a better /higher person than you isexisting. Now where does this "highness" end. If there is sense ofhighness , then there must be an element which is "highest". God isthat element. God is the HIGHEST.4. You always need some "shelter" to survive. In the childhood youneed shelter of parents, teacher, etc. Then of education, ability,wife, money, home, employers, what not. In old age, you need wife,children, stick, doctor, medicines, health etc Sujects change but notthe need for shelter.. If there is consistent need for shelter , thenthere must be an element existing of whose shelter is the ultimateshelter. Is not it Mr Sarphod. ( You should argue on such inprinciplepoints. Check up with you Begum Sahibaa.) ? If you are thirsty ,theremust be water existing on the planet. Now when you need always someshelter or other, then there must be an element which can bedescribedas " Highest Shelter available "! God is "PARAM ASHRAYA DATA" Giverof that shelter. If you take shelter of God, no other shelter will benecessary,5. We always want to be perfect. There is no doubt on that. But thereis also no doubt regarding the fact that we err. In fact "to err ishuman" -this saying is prevalent on this planet from time immemorial.Now if there is a desire to become perfect then there must exist anelement which is most perfect. Did you ever hear that there was adifference of a fraction of a second even in timings of Sun rise andSun set? Is not everything moving to the perfection? Who can be moreperfect except God. God is the MOST PERFECT.To be continued till you say "I am satisfied"As regards your observation that "Nature" also creates/controls-answer is that whether you believe that nature has "knowledge"? Ifyes, then that nature is our God. In our religion ( I don't know yourreligion) SHAKTI is God also. But if according to you , the INERTNATURE has no knowledge, then you have to accept God. Can inertnaturetake care of so many souls, operate Law of Karma, provide food to somany creatures? If Yes- I don't mind calling that Nature to be God.After all it is a matter only of "terminology". If no then you mustaccept that IF THERE IS DESIRE / NEED IN YOU TO BE PERFECT OR TO TAKESHELTER OR TO SEEK HIGHNESS then there exists an element to fulfilthat desire. That element is called " GOD/ PARAMATMA" . Logical ?Doesit appeal to your logic Mr Sarphod? Check up with your Begum Sahibaaand come back. Your arguments shall exhaust, not our arguments- besure on this. After all you are on GT Site !Jai Shree KrishnaVyas N B-------------------------------Dear Sarphod:Wonderful! I like your guts to put this question across!! I wasstartled to start with and even alarmed as I contemplated "thanksfor triggering the turbulence from which proceeds the peace asalways."Son goes to father and asks, "Father, what is God?" Fatheranswered, "Whatever drives your life, whatever sustains your lifeand whatever absorbs your life is verily God my child. Think aboutIt!" The father was wise enough not to instruct what God is. The sonpromptly contemplates in what his father said and came back, "Father,fear drives all the lives. Fear sustains all the lives. Fear absorbsall the life. Therefore, fear should be the god." Fatherremarks, "Good job! Keep thinking." The son not knowing whether hisrevelation was conclusive or not continues to contemplate. Son comesback to father and declares, "Father, desire drives all the lives,desire sustains all the lives and desire absorbs all the lives.Therefore, the desire should be the god." Father remarks again, Goodjob! Keep thinking." The son does not feel the conclusiveappreciation regarding the god - is it fear or desire? He continuesto contemplate and realizes that, the happiness drives all thelives. Happiness sustains all the lives. And, happiness absorbs allthe lives. Therefore happiness should be the god.Now he does not go back to his father as he has already felt thewisdom behind his father's remarks. God is not something that can betaught to, or preached to or transferred to anybody. It is thenotion within ... it is the imagination within ... it is thedeliberation within ... it is the understanding within ... it is theappreciation within ... IT IS THE PRESENCE WITHIN in its core. Theson, accepting the challenge from his father to use the body, sensesand mind blessed to him, continues to contemplate.He has seen the driving force, sustenance strength and absorptionpower in the fear, in the desire as well as in the happiness. Hesees that the three divinities of creation, sustenance,andabsorption transcend the boundaries of his existential fears,desires and happiness altogether integrating the whole universe ofknowns as well as unknowns - manifested as well as unmanifested -mitigating the differences that were once prominent amongst thethree phases of life - fear, desire and happiness.Then starts another dilemma - who is the god amongst these threedivinites that seem to determine what life is? Driving Force orSustenance Strength or Absorption Power? Again, he approaches hisfather, the wisdom established within to contemplate on the dilemma.The driving force comes first to claim the unclaimed post of TheGod. On ruthless examination, the driving force starts wonderingaloud that it itself should have been driven by something else. Thenew driving force wonders the same and so on. The driving force digsup an infinite legacy of its own kind beneath lost in the oblivionof the past. It returns back in frustration not withstanding whatthe driving force could really be.The absorption power jumps in next to claim the still unclaimed postof The God. Again, the wisdom starts the same gruelling scrutiny.The power under sharp vigilence starts whithering away to wonder ifit absorbs everything there should be something to absorb itself.The new absorbing power wonders the same way and so on. Theabsorption power piles up an infinite heirarchy of its own kindabove lost in the oblivion of the future. It returns back infrustration not withstanding what the absorption power could everbe.The empty throne is still awaiting to be filled. The sustenancestrength walks to claim the post in confidence. The valiant wisdomdoes its job with no resistance subjecting the life sustenancepower in suspension of its examination. The sustencance strengthwhich provides strength to all the life around starts wondering whatis the source of its own strength and sustenance. The new source ofthe strength resounds the same wonder what could be the source ofstrength. The sustenance strength keeps jumping from on fold toanother all around the universe that is within its control to seekitself folding itself in infinitude lost in the vast presence. Itreturns back in frustration not withstanding what the sustenancestrength could ever be.Seeing the crest-fallen champions of life not realizing their owntrue nature around, the throne of The God starts fading intosilence. The wisdom starts wondering in itself. Is it not thedriving force as well as the sustenance strength as well as theabsorption power all the time all around? Suddenly, the demarkationbetween the three divinities that was once so thick and opaquestarts giving away to reveal the force, strength and power ofcreation, sustenance and absorption in itself and hence in everything that is perceieved ever.The realized wisdom gets back and declares. Never ever ignore yourfears. Never ever ignore your desires. Never ever ignore yourhappiness. Ever be with your fears, desires and happiness as youare. Then you see the unison amongst your fears, desires and joysand hence in all your emotions, relations and existence within aswell as around. Then you see all the boundaries separating yournotions dissolve in the very wisdom where you dwell upon. Being whatyou are in spite of your apparent variances of life naturallytranscends all the barriers built by your cognition acrosseverything to reveal THE ONE everywhere and everywhence. Then thevery post of God does not appear to be real anymore which seemed themost troublesome question to start with.God remains evasive till you drift away from what you are in vainsearching whatever IT could be! Therefore, my dear friend, betterpause in your frenzy search and look around and look within … bewhat you are. Then God is everything … not just a notion ... notjust a faith ... not just a doubt ... but, everything ... EVERYTHINGWITH NO EXCEPTION. If you remain what you are, IT is all-inclusive.If you attempt to search for it, IT becomes all-exclusive. In otherwords, IT is EVERYTHING in your presence; and IT is NOTHING in yourperception.Respects.Naga Narayana--------------------------------Dear Sadhakas, Namaste!Let us address one aspect of Tabalchiji's issues with responses ofsadhakas received so far!To be able to see God, one needs to recognize God upon seeinganything, right? If one says I don't see God, one is looking for whatone "thinks" God is in whatever one is looking at. For God to be"that" it will be very very limiting to God, because what we think isso limited even if it is some grand image of God. That is notlogical, right?Now when Swamiji says Goenkaji and Poddarji had darshana of God, whatdoes it mean?It means the deep understanding of what God is and subsequentrealization that "my God, there is nothing else but only God IS inthe disguise of the Cosmos" that sees through that individual.The individual's vision has changed entirely, where he/she sawobjects of the world before, now he sees only Divinity in the sameforms. It is our experience that what we believe out there, we tendto see only that through our being closed minded. Similarly when weunderstand God, this "Understanding" opens up the very mind who seesGod everywhere, individual is merely a channel God is using.Other aspects of issues will see later....Namaskar............Pratap Bhatt-------------------------Shree Hari-Sarphodji,Great! You are still questioning brilliant!I have read the responses from our brethren, great beauty full ofdivine love. But I will stick to the hared nosed roll,(look past itdear friend).If someone asked me to show her an oak tree, and I gave her an acorn,what would she say I wonder? Of course the blueprint for the wholetree is in the acorn, one also one wonders, did the first oak treehave an acorn or the first acorn have an oak tree?Question 6 if resolved is the platform upon which all the otherquestion can be answered it seems to me.I can only tell you how I came to be touched be The Divine, that wasby my search into paradoxes, like the universe, like the acorn.I once mentioned a man I met in unusual circumstance. It was about3amin a large air traffic control room, very few controllers in the roomat that time. I was waiting to get clearance to work on a console(todo annual technical checks). There across the room was thiscontroller, He had his headset on,(with a long lead), he wasperforming asanas, (within the restriction), "trying to stay awake?"Iasked, "no he boomed", we started to talk. We had 'Much' in common,wedeveloped a dialog from then on , it was he who suggested I readBhagavad Gita,(I humbly suggest you do also).He once said to me with his booming humorous voice, "Mike if peoplecould her us they would think we're 'Lunatics'.What we had in common at the root, was our hunger for the truth, andthe courage, 'to ride the tiger".We were an unlikely pair from a world view, he was a Sri Lankan, meanAnglo Celt, especially if one could here u(Message over 64k, truncated.)

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