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Discharge of Duty Leads to Salvation and Freedom from Human Suffering

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Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

In today's sadhak posting, " Discharge of Duty leads to Salvation and

Freedom from Suffering, " in the last paragraph Swamiji has stated -

 

" Here a doubt may arise that we do good to others but others instead

of doing good to us, do evil to us, then how will 'parasparam

bhavayantah'(serve each other selflessly through one's duty) be

applicable? The answer is that if we do good to others, others will

not be able to do evil to us. They will have no power to do evil to

us. Even if they do evil to us, they will repent for it afterwards and

will lament for it. If they do evil to us; there will be many others

to do good to us and to sympathize with us. In fact there is no

ordinance anywhere to do evil to anyone. A man because of aversion

(dislikes, hate) does evil to others. " Parasparam bhavayantah " (serve

each other selflessly through one's duty). This is humanity and it

applies to mankind. Due to the lack of " Parasparam bhavayantah "

(selfless spirit through one's duties), man is suffering. "

 

From " The Bhagavad Gita - Sadhak Sanjivani " in English pg 288-289

and in Hindi page 165 by Swami Ramsukhdasji

 

To read the entire message please visit:

sadhaka/message/2149

 

PLEASE KINDLY PRESENT YOUR THOUGHTS, questions, doubts, affirmations

with reference to this message.

 

Gita Talk Moderator

Ram Ram

-------------------------------

NEW POSTING

 

-Shree Hari-

 

The last paragraph touches on something that is often missed by modern

society. If someone 'throws dirty water in ones face', in return for

ones kindness and compassion, in truth it is they who suffer.

When I observe such people, I feel compassion, all that spiteful

energy gives them a painful and wretched life, their world is

different from mine , their world is filled with idiots, and nasty

people, mine is filled with wise and beautiful people.

 

As always I enjoy the posts. With Respect and Divine Love,

 

Mike Keenor

 

-------------------------------

GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES:

1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify their doubts

related to Gitaji shlokas. Therefore, responses which further

clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be posted.

2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to

substantiate your response.

3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the

extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas

4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting

sadhaka's time.

5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only.

6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other

organizations.

7. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone

number, address etc.

8. Please do not address the response to a particular individual

since the message is going to the entire group.

9. Due to the large readership, all responses may not be posted.

10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if content

is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the group.

11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth,

westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use to Sanskrit

words only, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit bracketed

wherever possible.

 

MODERATOR

Ram Ram

------------------------

 

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Posted
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Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

In today's sadhak posting, " Discharge of Duty leads to Salvation and

Freedom from Suffering, " in the last paragraph Swamiji has stated -

 

" Here a doubt may arise that we do good to others but others instead

of doing good to us, do evil to us, then how will 'parasparam

bhavayantah'(serve each other selflessly through one's duty) be

applicable? The answer is that if we do good to others, others will

not be able to do evil to us. They will have no power to do evil to

us. Even if they do evil to us, they will repent for it afterwards

and

will lament for it. If they do evil to us; there will be many others

to do good to us and to sympathize with us. In fact there is no

ordinance anywhere to do evil to anyone. A man because of aversion

(dislikes, hate) does evil to others. " Parasparam bhavayantah " (serve

each other selflessly through one's duty). This is humanity and it

applies to mankind. Due to the lack of " Parasparam bhavayantah "

(selfless spirit through one's duties), man is suffering. "

 

From " The Bhagavad Gita - Sadhak Sanjivani " in English pg 288-289

and in Hindi page 165 by Swami Ramsukhdasji

 

To read the entire message please visit:

sadhaka/message/2149

 

PLEASE KINDLY PRESENT YOUR THOUGHTS, questions, doubts, affirmations

with reference to this message.

 

Gita Talk Moderator

Ram Ram

-------------------------------

NEW POSTING

 

Indeed, as Mike would often say, Swamiji had capacity " to look into

the souls " of us. Now a statement like this can only touch your

soul. Why this statement only? - I have found so many such

statements holding true in actual life and getting manifested before

you EXACTLY when you need or rather when Paramatma felt you needed !

A dozen at least of such laws and principles, diverse/ touching your

life in different ways , which I can list!

 

Swamiji was indeed Crown Jewel of your " Beloved " .

This statement of Swamiji (Taat Shree) has many facets-

 

1 The evil doer loses his capacity itself to do evil to you.

 

I don't know how it happens. May be " conscience " has something to do

with it. ( What according to you can be the reason Dear Sadhaks?

Brother Mike?)

 

But I know most certainly that it never fails to happen. It is my

direct personal experience, not with one person but at least with

dozen people who in my bad (?) phase , in different ways, at

different times, under different pretexts, giving different

reasons, did evil to me. ( O God ! In bad times even your cloths

become your enemies).

 

Another reason I can think of is again Swamiji's principle only -

" If you misutilise any thing, you lose that thing. " He would often

say if an Employer deals badly with good employee, next time he WILL

NOT get good employee. Why? How? I don't know. But I know it is true.

 

Another reason I now think is that God wanted me to realise the

truth. He washes our eyes with tears till they are clean enough to

behold the reality.

 

2 Evil Doer will repent. Will cry. Will suffer.

 

As you sow so shall you reap. History proves it right.

What perplexes me is the timing.(May be because one can at least

tend to wait, what else aggrieved can do. But this " wait " is not

good, experience has taught me that)

 

Is there any thing which governs the timing? I don't know. But my

personal experience teaches me- it is faster if you forgive and stop

considering him to be evil. On this I have no doubt. If you keep

your wounds green and unhealed- the evil doer will not, AT LEAST to

you, " appear " to be repenting. An honest remark by me based on

personal experience. The moment you forgive and forget, suddenly and

unexpectedly you hear the news of his sufferring. Any comments Mike

about your experience or my experience? Fellow Sadhaks? This is my

personal experience.

 

3. Nothing wrong will happen to you

 

No doubt about that ! Timing ? Yes ! But I feel for the aggrieved

it doesn't matter. He is too busy fighting. He loses the sense of

timing. I wonder if he believes at that point that he is into bad

times. I feel only today that I was unto terrible waters at that

time. I did not feel so then. I don't know why. Any comments Mike?

Dear fellow sadhaks?

 

4 As against one person doing evil to you, many others will come to

your rescue.

 

I can give many examples from my personal experience in life that it

happened. Strangers help. Those who you in the past considered as

bad or enemies help. Nature helps. Circumstances help. The most weak

otherwise, they help. Help definitely comes without even soliciting

and it comes in abundance. No doubt on that.

 

Only thing which aggrieved should conquer and that takes time (

again my personal experience only) is to forget and forgive the evil

doers. Baba! It is rather very very difficult. If one prays, one

should always pray to be able to forgive. I don't know why it is

difficult. May be ego has something to do with it.

 

What do you say sadhaks ? Is it difficult? Why it is difficult ?

Today it is not so for me. But in the past, it was terribly

difficult. Most of the mental agonies which I suffered were in fact

due to that only and not due to evil done actually to me by evil

doer or because of the results of that evilness.

 

And then comes the " blaming " . Who do you blame? That also is a very

painful phase. I feel today, may be in retrospect, that in blaming

you always incur a sin. Blame is sin in itself.

 

Says Taat Shree- You have not forgiven, if you become happy, even

subtly and internally, when you hear the news of suffering of evil

doer !! Acid Test !!! Some of such tests which He prescribed , they

kill your ego decisively. They are simple but absolutely difficult.

They are difficult but in fact very very simple. Forgive and

forget !!

 

Another principle which I practiced, based on Great Swamiji, was

to " do good " , if opportunity arises, to the very evil doer.( God

gives you such opportunities, quite often. Another personal

experience) . Great results come of that Karma. Believe me on that.

It helps you in forgiving and forgetting. I remember I did good but

inside my heart I thought that as revenge while doing. But later on

I forgot. I forgot without even realising.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

 

 

-------------------------------

Namaskar,

We should not do good thinking/expecting others to to do good to us.

If we do good without any expectations, it will have effect on

others,

including the evil nature people, in the long run.

With respects

Sunil K. Thusu

 

-------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

-Shree Hari-

 

The last paragraph touches on something that is often missed by

modern

society. If someone 'throws dirty water in ones face', in return for

ones kindness and compassion, in truth it is they who suffer.

When I observe such people, I feel compassion, all that spiteful

energy gives them a painful and wretched life, their world is

different from mine , their world is filled with idiots, and nasty

people, mine is filled with wise and beautiful people.

 

As always I enjoy the posts. With Respect and Divine Love,

 

Mike Keenor

 

-------------------------------

GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES:

1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify their doubts

related to Gitaji shlokas. Therefore, responses which further

clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be posted.

2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to

substantiate your response.

3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the

extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas

4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting

sadhaka's time.

5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only.

6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other

organizations.

7. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone

number, address etc.

8. Please do not address the response to a particular individual

since the message is going to the entire group.

9. Due to the large readership, all responses may not be posted.

10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if content

is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the group.

11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth,

westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use to Sanskrit

words only, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit bracketed

wherever possible.

 

MODERATOR

Ram Ram

------------------------

 

Post message:

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Guest guest

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Posted
Posted

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

In today's sadhak posting, " Discharge of Duty leads to Salvation and

Freedom from Suffering, " in the last paragraph Swamiji has stated -

 

" Here a doubt may arise that we do good to others but others instead

of doing good to us, do evil to us, then how will 'parasparam

bhavayantah'(serve each other selflessly through one's duty) be

applicable? The answer is that if we do good to others, others will

not be able to do evil to us. They will have no power to do evil to

us. Even if they do evil to us, they will repent for it afterwards

and

will lament for it. If they do evil to us; there will be many others

to do good to us and to sympathize with us. In fact there is no

ordinance anywhere to do evil to anyone. A man because of aversion

(dislikes, hate) does evil to others. " Parasparam bhavayantah " (serve

each other selflessly through one's duty). This is humanity and it

applies to mankind. Due to the lack of " Parasparam bhavayantah "

(selfless spirit through one's duties), man is suffering. "

 

From " The Bhagavad Gita - Sadhak Sanjivani " in English pg 288-289

and in Hindi page 165 by Swami Ramsukhdasji

 

To read the entire message please visit:

sadhaka/message/2149

 

PLEASE KINDLY PRESENT YOUR THOUGHTS, questions, doubts, affirmations

with reference to this message.

 

Gita Talk Moderator

Ram Ram

-------------------------------

NEW POSTING

 

Dear Sadaks,

In the first instance, Do good to others ONLY when repeadly asked

for. vasita Rishi in Dasaratha kingdom is Guru. Dasaratha attempted

many ways to have child. Everything failed. He asked Guru what can

he do? Guru said Do Puthra Kamesti Yog and you will have children

definetely. Dasaratha said, " Why have you not told me earlier

Guru? " . Guru said you have not asked me till now. Only ask then Do

good. Mother Drowpathi cried for Sri Krishna` s help while being

disrobed, Bagavan came to rescue.

Secondly when evil is returned for good just ignore as the Pala of

action is not your. It is Sri Krishna` s. Also when one can make

differance of Pala as Good or evil, he is still in ignorance.

Thirdly never ever think that for evil done in return for good has

to be repented by the evil doer. Vasudeva Sarvam Mayam. The doer and

the receipent are one and the same. By thinking the evil doer will

repent one day or other, you are showing supramacy over the evil

doer and your Chita (Buddhi) becomes Ashudh (poluted)

Do good at mind level or physically only when asked for. Sometimes

good done turns to be harmful to the other. Besides where comes the

question of doership.

Jai Sri Krishna

 

baiya sathyanarayan

 

--------------------------------

 

Respected Vyas Ji,

 

I fully agree and believe with all the four points given by

you i.e.

 

1 The evil doer loses his capacity itself to do evil to you.

2 Evil Doer will repent. Will cry. Will suffer.

3. Nothing wrong will happen to you

4 As against one person doing evil to you, many others will come to

your rescue.

 

I have always believed this world works on the principle

that every action has an equal and opposite reaction i.e. whatever

we do comes back to us sometime , somewhere , somehow.

 

But Why then the evil is increasing and goodness is

decreasing in this world. We find people instead of being selfless

are becoming selfish by each passing generations, moral values are

going down, educated people (like Mr. Sarphod ) are questioning the

existence of GOD , all around us we find more evil than goodness (Mr

Sarphod, i am not referring to you as evil but people in general

including myself) ) . Anger, jealousy, greed these negative

feelings are more prominent in people these days (I don't categorize

people as good or bad , I believe nobody in today's time including

myself is 100 % GOOD OR 100% BAD )but the negative traits are

increasing by the day.

 

How can we then say that evil doer loses his capacity itself to do

evil.

 

Could it be because when our evil deeds come back to us we are not

able to relate them with our wrong doings done earlier and instead

name them as BAD KISMET .

 

Vandana

 

 

 

 

 

--------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

 

Indeed, as Mike would often say, Swamiji had capacity " to look into

the souls " of us. Now a statement like this can only touch your

soul. Why this statement only? - I have found so many such

statements holding true in actual life and getting manifested before

you EXACTLY when you need or rather when Paramatma felt you needed !

A dozen at least of such laws and principles, diverse/ touching your

life in different ways , which I can list!

 

Swamiji was indeed Crown Jewel of your " Beloved " .

This statement of Swamiji (Taat Shree) has many facets-

 

1 The evil doer loses his capacity itself to do evil to you.

 

I don't know how it happens. May be " conscience " has something to do

with it. ( What according to you can be the reason Dear Sadhaks?

Brother Mike?)

 

But I know most certainly that it never fails to happen. It is my

direct personal experience, not with one person but at least with

dozen people who in my bad (?) phase , in different ways, at

different times, under different pretexts, giving different

reasons, did evil to me. ( O God ! In bad times even your cloths

become your enemies).

 

Another reason I can think of is again Swamiji's principle only -

" If you misutilise any thing, you lose that thing. " He would often

say if an Employer deals badly with good employee, next time he WILL

NOT get good employee. Why? How? I don't know. But I know it is true.

 

Another reason I now think is that God wanted me to realise the

truth. He washes our eyes with tears till they are clean enough to

behold the reality.

 

2 Evil Doer will repent. Will cry. Will suffer.

 

As you sow so shall you reap. History proves it right.

What perplexes me is the timing.(May be because one can at least

tend to wait, what else aggrieved can do. But this " wait " is not

good, experience has taught me that)

 

Is there any thing which governs the timing? I don't know. But my

personal experience teaches me- it is faster if you forgive and stop

considering him to be evil. On this I have no doubt. If you keep

your wounds green and unhealed- the evil doer will not, AT LEAST to

you, " appear " to be repenting. An honest remark by me based on

personal experience. The moment you forgive and forget, suddenly and

unexpectedly you hear the news of his sufferring. Any comments Mike

about your experience or my experience? Fellow Sadhaks? This is my

personal experience.

 

3. Nothing wrong will happen to you

 

No doubt about that ! Timing ? Yes ! But I feel for the aggrieved

it doesn't matter. He is too busy fighting. He loses the sense of

timing. I wonder if he believes at that point that he is into bad

times. I feel only today that I was unto terrible waters at that

time. I did not feel so then. I don't know why. Any comments Mike?

Dear fellow sadhaks?

 

4 As against one person doing evil to you, many others will come to

your rescue.

 

I can give many examples from my personal experience in life that it

happened. Strangers help. Those who you in the past considered as

bad or enemies help. Nature helps. Circumstances help. The most weak

otherwise, they help. Help definitely comes without even soliciting

and it comes in abundance. No doubt on that.

 

Only thing which aggrieved should conquer and that takes time (

again my personal experience only) is to forget and forgive the evil

doers. Baba! It is rather very very difficult. If one prays, one

should always pray to be able to forgive. I don't know why it is

difficult. May be ego has something to do with it.

 

What do you say sadhaks ? Is it difficult? Why it is difficult ?

Today it is not so for me. But in the past, it was terribly

difficult. Most of the mental agonies which I suffered were in fact

due to that only and not due to evil done actually to me by evil

doer or because of the results of that evilness.

 

And then comes the " blaming " . Who do you blame? That also is a very

painful phase. I feel today, may be in retrospect, that in blaming

you always incur a sin. Blame is sin in itself.

 

Says Taat Shree- You have not forgiven, if you become happy, even

subtly and internally, when you hear the news of suffering of evil

doer !! Acid Test !!! Some of such tests which He prescribed , they

kill your ego decisively. They are simple but absolutely difficult.

They are difficult but in fact very very simple. Forgive and

forget !!

 

Another principle which I practiced, based on Great Swamiji, was

to " do good " , if opportunity arises, to the very evil doer.( God

gives you such opportunities, quite often. Another personal

experience) . Great results come of that Karma. Believe me on that.

It helps you in forgiving and forgetting. I remember I did good but

inside my heart I thought that as revenge while doing. But later on

I forgot. I forgot without even realising.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

 

 

-------------------------------

Namaskar,

We should not do good thinking/expecting others to to do good to us.

If we do good without any expectations, it will have effect on

others,

including the evil nature people, in the long run.

With respects

Sunil K. Thusu

 

-------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

-Shree Hari-

 

The last paragraph touches on something that is often missed by

modern

society. If someone 'throws dirty water in ones face', in return for

ones kindness and compassion, in truth it is they who suffer.

When I observe such people, I feel compassion, all that spiteful

energy gives them a painful and wretched life, their world is

different from mine , their world is filled with idiots, and nasty

people, mine is filled with wise and beautiful people.

 

As always I enjoy the posts. With Respect and Divine Love,

 

Mike Keenor

 

-------------------------------

GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES:

1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify their doubts

related to Gitaji shlokas. Therefore, responses which further

clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be posted.

2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to

substantiate your response.

3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the

extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas

4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting

sadhaka's time.

5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only.

6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other

organizations.

7. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone

number, address etc.

8. Please do not address the response to a particular individual

since the message is going to the entire group.

9. Due to the large readership, all responses may not be posted.

10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if content

is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the group.

11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth,

westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use to Sanskrit

words only, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit bracketed

wherever possible.

 

MODERATOR

Ram Ram

------------------------

 

Post message:

Subscribe: -

Un: -

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Guest guest

Guest guest

Posted
Posted

Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

In today's sadhak posting, " Discharge of Duty leads to Salvation and

Freedom from Suffering, " in the last paragraph Swamiji has stated -

 

" Here a doubt may arise that we do good to others but others instead

of doing good to us, do evil to us, then how will 'parasparam

bhavayantah'(serve each other selflessly through one's duty) be

applicable? The answer is that if we do good to others, others will

not be able to do evil to us. They will have no power to do evil to

us. Even if they do evil to us, they will repent for it afterwards

and

will lament for it. If they do evil to us; there will be many others

to do good to us and to sympathize with us. In fact there is no

ordinance anywhere to do evil to anyone. A man because of aversion

(dislikes, hate) does evil to others. " Parasparam bhavayantah " (serve

each other selflessly through one's duty). This is humanity and it

applies to mankind. Due to the lack of " Parasparam bhavayantah "

(selfless spirit through one's duties), man is suffering. "

 

From " The Bhagavad Gita - Sadhak Sanjivani " in English pg 288-289

and in Hindi page 165 by Swami Ramsukhdasji

 

To read the entire message please visit:

sadhaka/message/2149

 

PLEASE KINDLY PRESENT YOUR THOUGHTS, questions, doubts, affirmations

with reference to this message.

 

Gita Talk Moderator

Ram Ram

-------------------------------

NEW POSTING

 

Hari Om

Vandanaji ! A good question indeed !

 

There are two things.

 

One- your propensity to do evil.

 

Two- your capacity to do evil.

 

You may have desire to do something but you may not have capacity

to do something. The evil doer " tries " /

even " attempts " / " wishes/wants/desires " to do evil to you- but " can

not do evil to you " . He loses his very capacity to impact you or

cause results to you.

 

Your entire narration is by and large with reference

to " desire/attempt/wish/want/try " of evil doer and not his capacity

to do evil or cause harm to you. The distinction between the two is

of something like the distinction between karma and result and

extends/tilts towards the capacity of your doing karma. But the

desire to cause evil remains a separate thing.

 

Hence increase in evil doers are reflective of

desires/propensities/attempts of the evil doer and not of his

capacity to do the same in effect and thus cause harm to others.

 

Hope this is clear. Next time, I shall of course attempt to answer

your questions with reference to the propensities/desires/causes in

control, of the evil doer.

 

Last para is irrelevant to the above. It is a separate matter

altogether. I shall touch upon that too next time.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

--------------------------------

 

 

-Shree Hari-

 

 

Before I go any further I will paste a piece from " The prophet " by

Kahlil Gibran:

'Your pain is the breaking of the shell that encloses your

understanding.

Even as the stone of the fruit must break, that its heart may stand

in

the sun, so you must know pain.'

This lyrical observation by Kahlil Gibran, reflects the wisdom of

Swamiji when he referred to the benefits of unfavorable circumstance.

Comment 1: The evil doer loses his capacity itself to do evil to

you...

I believe that is correct, if one transcends the knee jerk nature,

then something profound happens, but it has to be genuine, you are

thus not contaminated by the evil doers poison.

Look there is a day of reckoning, that comes upon a person when

divine

grace touches her/him, it is a blessing but is full of anguish.

Even though we may be living a righteous life, what dark murky past

have we lived before?...

....I remember starting to say I'm sorry over and over again, then

tears then screams, then a feeling that, as it were, I wanted to turn

myself inside out, (the stone had broken). Impossible to be the same

again.

Remember, as far as I know I have not done any real harm to anyone,

BUT my soul knows otherwise.

The principle of not to mis-utilise, is I think cosmic in proportion,

and is highly transcendent, from the mundane to the profound.

 

Comment 2: (As you sow so shall you reap. History proves it right).

It is quite evident that this is true, if one has hate burnt out of

him/her then what is there to forgive, you watch in a kind of sorrow

as their history turns into hell. Of course one learns from these

events, filed under Wisdom.

 

Comment 3: I am having a little trouble getting my head around that

one. Apart from the fact that those who wished to harm me, in the

long run did not, every thing worked out as good as it could.

 

Comment 4: A quick and humorous obsevation. When I was in my military

training many years ago, (it was brutal), there was a trainee ahead

of my entry. He had a huge scare on his face, very gaunt and swarthy,

looked like a Gypsy, and I used to think, " I better keep well out of

of this fellas way he looks lethal " .

In the fullness of time I was posted to a certain electronic

servicing establishment. Yes there he was, yes he was of Romany

stock. He was a gentleman, definitely helped me when I needed it,

taught some Romany knowledge about wild food, he was a pleasure to

work with.

 

Behind the scenes I think Baba who loves us, his children, and by

looking to Him the beloved, we will progress.

 

Vyasji I have answered these points you put to me off the cuff.

Although I sense Gitaji all around this thread.

 

With Respect and Divine,

 

Mike Keenor

 

 

 

--------------------------------

Dear Sadaks,

In the first instance, Do good to others ONLY when repeadly asked

for. vasita Rishi in Dasaratha kingdom is Guru. Dasaratha attempted

many ways to have child. Everything failed. He asked Guru what can

he do? Guru said Do Puthra Kamesti Yog and you will have children

definetely. Dasaratha said, " Why have you not told me earlier

Guru? " . Guru said you have not asked me till now. Only ask then Do

good. Mother Drowpathi cried for Sri Krishna` s help while being

disrobed, Bagavan came to rescue.

Secondly when evil is returned for good just ignore as the Pala of

action is not your. It is Sri Krishna` s. Also when one can make

differance of Pala as Good or evil, he is still in ignorance.

Thirdly never ever think that for evil done in return for good has

to be repented by the evil doer. Vasudeva Sarvam Mayam. The doer and

the receipent are one and the same. By thinking the evil doer will

repent one day or other, you are showing supramacy over the evil

doer and your Chita (Buddhi) becomes Ashudh (poluted)

Do good at mind level or physically only when asked for. Sometimes

good done turns to be harmful to the other. Besides where comes the

question of doership.

Jai Sri Krishna

 

baiya sathyanarayan

 

--------------------------------

 

Respected Vyas Ji,

 

I fully agree and believe with all the four points given by

you i.e.

 

1 The evil doer loses his capacity itself to do evil to you.

2 Evil Doer will repent. Will cry. Will suffer.

3. Nothing wrong will happen to you

4 As against one person doing evil to you, many others will come to

your rescue.

 

I have always believed this world works on the principle

that every action has an equal and opposite reaction i.e. whatever

we do comes back to us sometime , somewhere , somehow.

 

But Why then the evil is increasing and goodness is

decreasing in this world. We find people instead of being selfless

are becoming selfish by each passing generations, moral values are

going down, educated people (like Mr. Sarphod ) are questioning the

existence of GOD , all around us we find more evil than goodness (Mr

Sarphod, i am not referring to you as evil but people in general

including myself) ) . Anger, jealousy, greed these negative

feelings are more prominent in people these days (I don't categorize

people as good or bad , I believe nobody in today's time including

myself is 100 % GOOD OR 100% BAD )but the negative traits are

increasing by the day.

 

How can we then say that evil doer loses his capacity itself to do

evil.

 

Could it be because when our evil deeds come back to us we are not

able to relate them with our wrong doings done earlier and instead

name them as BAD KISMET .

 

Vandana

 

 

 

 

 

--------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

 

Indeed, as Mike would often say, Swamiji had capacity " to look into

the souls " of us. Now a statement like this can only touch your

soul. Why this statement only? - I have found so many such

statements holding true in actual life and getting manifested before

you EXACTLY when you need or rather when Paramatma felt you needed !

A dozen at least of such laws and principles, diverse/ touching your

life in different ways , which I can list!

 

Swamiji was indeed Crown Jewel of your " Beloved " .

This statement of Swamiji (Taat Shree) has many facets-

 

1 The evil doer loses his capacity itself to do evil to you.

 

I don't know how it happens. May be " conscience " has something to do

with it. ( What according to you can be the reason Dear Sadhaks?

Brother Mike?)

 

But I know most certainly that it never fails to happen. It is my

direct personal experience, not with one person but at least with

dozen people who in my bad (?) phase , in different ways, at

different times, under different pretexts, giving different

reasons, did evil to me. ( O God ! In bad times even your cloths

become your enemies).

 

Another reason I can think of is again Swamiji's principle only -

" If you misutilise any thing, you lose that thing. " He would often

say if an Employer deals badly with good employee, next time he WILL

NOT get good employee. Why? How? I don't know. But I know it is true.

 

Another reason I now think is that God wanted me to realise the

truth. He washes our eyes with tears till they are clean enough to

behold the reality.

 

2 Evil Doer will repent. Will cry. Will suffer.

 

As you sow so shall you reap. History proves it right.

What perplexes me is the timing.(May be because one can at least

tend to wait, what else aggrieved can do. But this " wait " is not

good, experience has taught me that)

 

Is there any thing which governs the timing? I don't know. But my

personal experience teaches me- it is faster if you forgive and stop

considering him to be evil. On this I have no doubt. If you keep

your wounds green and unhealed- the evil doer will not, AT LEAST to

you, " appear " to be repenting. An honest remark by me based on

personal experience. The moment you forgive and forget, suddenly and

unexpectedly you hear the news of his sufferring. Any comments Mike

about your experience or my experience? Fellow Sadhaks? This is my

personal experience.

 

3. Nothing wrong will happen to you

 

No doubt about that ! Timing ? Yes ! But I feel for the aggrieved

it doesn't matter. He is too busy fighting. He loses the sense of

timing. I wonder if he believes at that point that he is into bad

times. I feel only today that I was unto terrible waters at that

time. I did not feel so then. I don't know why. Any comments Mike?

Dear fellow sadhaks?

 

4 As against one person doing evil to you, many others will come to

your rescue.

 

I can give many examples from my personal experience in life that it

happened. Strangers help. Those who you in the past considered as

bad or enemies help. Nature helps. Circumstances help. The most weak

otherwise, they help. Help definitely comes without even soliciting

and it comes in abundance. No doubt on that.

 

Only thing which aggrieved should conquer and that takes time (

again my personal experience only) is to forget and forgive the evil

doers. Baba! It is rather very very difficult. If one prays, one

should always pray to be able to forgive. I don't know why it is

difficult. May be ego has something to do with it.

 

What do you say sadhaks ? Is it difficult? Why it is difficult ?

Today it is not so for me. But in the past, it was terribly

difficult. Most of the mental agonies which I suffered were in fact

due to that only and not due to evil done actually to me by evil

doer or because of the results of that evilness.

 

And then comes the " blaming " . Who do you blame? That also is a very

painful phase. I feel today, may be in retrospect, that in blaming

you always incur a sin. Blame is sin in itself.

 

Says Taat Shree- You have not forgiven, if you become happy, even

subtly and internally, when you hear the news of suffering of evil

doer !! Acid Test !!! Some of such tests which He prescribed , they

kill your ego decisively. They are simple but absolutely difficult.

They are difficult but in fact very very simple. Forgive and

forget !!

 

Another principle which I practiced, based on Great Swamiji, was

to " do good " , if opportunity arises, to the very evil doer.( God

gives you such opportunities, quite often. Another personal

experience) . Great results come of that Karma. Believe me on that.

It helps you in forgiving and forgetting. I remember I did good but

inside my heart I thought that as revenge while doing. But later on

I forgot. I forgot without even realising.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

 

 

-------------------------------

Namaskar,

We should not do good thinking/expecting others to to do good to us.

If we do good without any expectations, it will have effect on

others,

including the evil nature people, in the long run.

With respects

Sunil K. Thusu

 

-------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

-Shree Hari-

 

The last paragraph touches on something that is often missed by

modern

society. If someone 'throws dirty water in ones face', in return for

ones kindness and compassion, in truth it is they who suffer.

When I observe such people, I feel compassion, all that spiteful

energy gives them a painful and wretched life, their world is

different from mine , their world is filled with idiots, and nasty

people, mine is filled with wise and beautiful people.

 

As always I enjoy the posts. With Respect and Divine Love,

 

Mike Keenor

 

-------------------------------

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Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

In today's sadhak posting, " Discharge of Duty leads to Salvation and

Freedom from Suffering, " in the last paragraph Swamiji has stated -

 

" Here a doubt may arise that we do good to others but others instead

of doing good to us, do evil to us, then how will 'parasparam

bhavayantah'(serve each other selflessly through one's duty) be

applicable? The answer is that if we do good to others, others will

not be able to do evil to us. They will have no power to do evil to

us. Even if they do evil to us, they will repent for it afterwards

and

will lament for it. If they do evil to us; there will be many others

to do good to us and to sympathize with us. In fact there is no

ordinance anywhere to do evil to anyone. A man because of aversion

(dislikes, hate) does evil to others. " Parasparam bhavayantah " (serve

each other selflessly through one's duty). This is humanity and it

applies to mankind. Due to the lack of " Parasparam bhavayantah "

(selfless spirit through one's duties), man is suffering. "

 

From " The Bhagavad Gita - Sadhak Sanjivani " in English pg 288-289

and in Hindi page 165 by Swami Ramsukhdasji

 

To read the entire message please visit:

sadhaka/message/2149

 

PLEASE KINDLY PRESENT YOUR THOUGHTS, questions, doubts, affirmations

with reference to this message.

 

Gita Talk Moderator

Ram Ram

-------------------------------

NEW POSTING

 

Dear sadak

1) The evil doer loses his capacity itself to do evil to you.

Reply:

 

a) Who is your evil doer? The doer and you are one and the

same as Vasudeva Sarvam. It is evil (element of bad thought) in a

person. So it is not the person himself evil. Ex: A muslim was

reapeatedly spitting at Sant Ekanath on Ekadasi day. Sant just

ignored. The muslim got fed up as there was no reaction to his

doing. He fell at Sant feet. Ekanath said to the man, " Your Kuran

teaches that external (Shudhi) cleanliness and internal cleanliness

both required to see God. So you were only spitting at me polluting

my body each when I came back after bath. But if had I got angry on

you, my internal clealiness would have gone. If my Chit becomes

dirty with angry words, it is difficult to clean it (mind) " . No any

action Evil retreated.

 

b) Christ was crucified, But HE said to his father pardon the evil

doer as they know not what they are doing. Here the evil brought

death to Christ as it is happening these days. But such great

cleaniness Christ had, HE came back with Austrial body, to prove

that body and soul are differant. Here Christ Prarabdha was over on

earth, so went to heavens. Action was done by Christ to impart

knowledge to ignorant people who opposed him. So crucification took

place.

 

c) Adi Sankara was taken secretly by Kabali head to be beheaded.

Sankara bowed down offering his head for the killing. But will of

God that one of Sanakars disciple came at that time. Seeing this,

the disciple got cosmic energy that he killed the Kabali by his

fingers. Sankara saw this and sang Nurashima Storam, the disciple

came back to normal. Sankara Prarabdha is not over, so he had to

live. Thus rescued.

 

d) Pandavas were cheated by Duryodan and Sakuni evil mind in playing

gambling and sent Pandavas to forest 14 years of suffering. Why?

Here Pandavas (yudistra) made of mistake of commiting one of the

Pancha Maha Padakam (One of the five great sins) gambling. So there

was No rescue.

 

2. Evil Doer will repent. Will cry. Will suffer. There is NO

question evil doer will repent. Once evil in a person vacates, the

person by himself (Athuman which was wittness) punishes the body in

which Athuman exists. .. Like the person who betrayed Christ for

silver coins. Like Buddha said, " Do not take abuses to be at you.

Then the same abuses bounces back to the sender like a ball thrown

against a wall " . In upanashids it is said, " a person doing evil to

you, is doing Good to you by taking off your sins done knowingly or

unknowingly " . Ex:1) In Garuda Puran-- There was woman not getting

married. A sant (saint) came for Biksha saw the lady weeping and

knew her problem. Sant said to the lady daily sit just outside your

house with your father and talk happily, your marriage will settle

soon. Lady never questioned the concept. People passing by use to

pass different comments that the girl and father are behaving

indecently. Those people took away the sins of that girl done in her

earlier birth and she soon got married.

 

a) A prostitute was to be stoned to death by some persons. Christ

interfered and said, " Those who have not sinned can cast stones at

the lady first " . Once their evil was illumined in their mind they

droped the stones. So the evil is differant from evil doer.

 

3. Nothing. wrong will happen to you. That is NOT a guarantee.

Guarantee is nothing wrong happens is to your Athuman, As Bagavan

said in Geetha that Athuman is non-destructable.. We saw totally

innocent Cooly at Mumbai railway station killed by terrorist. The

cooly and the terrorist have no connection. People killed by

carelessness by driver. Driver and people got killed have no

connection. Same time they were people just came out of Taj few

minutes earlier to blast, got saved. Something happening to us or

not depends on our Prarabdha Karmas which is arrow out from Bow,

this is said in Vivekachdani. Refer Dasaratha death with Sri Rama

seperation, where Dasaratha killed a boy by mistake in woods and the

boys parents cursed Dasratha death to come years later.

 

4 As against one person doing evil to you, many others will come to

your rescue. No only GOD can rescue one through others. When

Jarasandh waged war with Sri Krishna, people said that it is not

their look out, as it is purely enmity between Sri Krishana and

Jarasand. How much Sri Krishna had done for those people? Christ was

crucified, but the entire crowd stayed behind fearing death. How

much Christ done for them? Mahathuma Gandhi done untold good to our

nation. Are we celebrating his birthday as that of today`s

ministers? We do our Karma as Sarvam Sri Krishna Arpanam and never

expect someone to save us.

 

Humble request, pardon me where ever I am wrong.

Jai Sri Krishna

baiya sathyanarayan

-----------------------

-Shree Hari-

 

Brother Vyas,

 

 

I will continue my response to your post, as you invited comment from me.

Comment 4:(continued) Blame, some people seem to waste enormous

emotional energy trying to apportion blame, it appears as a vane

attempt to divert any personal involvement in an unfavorable event.

What I see of the constant blamers, is, they do incur sin for sure,

always trying to point score, they seem to be horrible people who no

one likes.

 

I am in the position now, that someone who did terrible things to me,

told terrible lies, is now almost completely in our care, (my wife and I).

A very nice Sikh lady we know ask how this person was doing quite some time

back, we told her, I then looked at this lady, shook my head and said, " There's

an awful lot of Karma here " .

I could see the unfolding, and dear Sadhaks, I got no pleasure from

this unfolding. What I feel is a sadness, for what could have been.

 

Vyasji from your post, and others of yours, it is clear that you have

gone through a transition of the spirit, as I have, I think it is

important to mention these things when appropriate, it will give

validation and support to others.

 

With Respect and Divine Love,

 

Mike Keenor

-------------------------------

Dear Sadaks,

 

Ref: Vandana.

 

Evil will grow day by day more folds. It is bound to happen as Bagavan said

about Kaliyug. Just concentrate on Bagavan do not see world. Do not think you

want to do good until it is asked for, and forget the action done immediately

and keep your concentration on God. The more you see evil the more the mind will

sympathize and concentration lost.

 

In tretha Yug Mother Seethas torchered by Ravana, Sri Krishna mother Devi and

Vasu dev was torchered. Now it is in multifold. Your aim is to get out from

here and not see what is happening. Jai Sri Krishna

 

baiya sathyanarayan

 

-------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Hari Om

Vandanaji ! A good question indeed !

 

There are two things.

 

One- your propensity to do evil.

 

Two- your capacity to do evil.

 

You may have desire to do something but you may not have capacity

to do something. The evil doer " tries " /

even " attempts " / " wishes/wants/desires " to do evil to you- but " can

not do evil to you " . He loses his very capacity to impact you or

cause results to you.

 

Your entire narration is by and large with reference

to " desire/attempt/wish/want/try " of evil doer and not his capacity

to do evil or cause harm to you. The distinction between the two is

of something like the distinction between karma and result and

extends/tilts towards the capacity of your doing karma. But the

desire to cause evil remains a separate thing.

 

Hence increase in evil doers are reflective of

desires/propensities/attempts of the evil doer and not of his

capacity to do the same in effect and thus cause harm to others.

 

Hope this is clear. Next time, I shall of course attempt to answer

your questions with reference to the propensities/desires/causes in

control, of the evil doer.

 

Last para is irrelevant to the above. It is a separate matter

altogether. I shall touch upon that too next time.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

--------------------------------

 

 

-Shree Hari-

 

 

Before I go any further I will paste a piece from " The prophet " by

Kahlil Gibran:

'Your pain is the breaking of the shell that encloses your

understanding.

Even as the stone of the fruit must break, that its heart may stand

in

the sun, so you must know pain.'

This lyrical observation by Kahlil Gibran, reflects the wisdom of

Swamiji when he referred to the benefits of unfavorable circumstance.

Comment 1: The evil doer loses his capacity itself to do evil to

you...

I believe that is correct, if one transcends the knee jerk nature,

then something profound happens, but it has to be genuine, you are

thus not contaminated by the evil doers poison.

Look there is a day of reckoning, that comes upon a person when

divine

grace touches her/him, it is a blessing but is full of anguish.

Even though we may be living a righteous life, what dark murky past

have we lived before?...

....I remember starting to say I'm sorry over and over again, then

tears then screams, then a feeling that, as it were, I wanted to turn

myself inside out, (the stone had broken). Impossible to be the same

again.

Remember, as far as I know I have not done any real harm to anyone,

BUT my soul knows otherwise.

The principle of not to mis-utilise, is I think cosmic in proportion,

and is highly transcendent, from the mundane to the profound.

 

Comment 2: (As you sow so shall you reap. History proves it right).

It is quite evident that this is true, if one has hate burnt out of

him/her then what is there to forgive, you watch in a kind of sorrow

as their history turns into hell. Of course one learns from these

events, filed under Wisdom.

 

Comment 3: I am having a little trouble getting my head around that

one. Apart from the fact that those who wished to harm me, in the

long run did not, every thing worked out as good as it could.

 

Comment 4: A quick and humorous obsevation. When I was in my military

training many years ago, (it was brutal), there was a trainee ahead

of my entry. He had a huge scare on his face, very gaunt and swarthy,

looked like a Gypsy, and I used to think, " I better keep well out of

of this fellas way he looks lethal " .

In the fullness of time I was posted to a certain electronic

servicing establishment. Yes there he was, yes he was of Romany

stock. He was a gentleman, definitely helped me when I needed it,

taught some Romany knowledge about wild food, he was a pleasure to

work with.

 

Behind the scenes I think Baba who loves us, his children, and by

looking to Him the beloved, we will progress.

 

Vyasji I have answered these points you put to me off the cuff.

Although I sense Gitaji all around this thread.

 

With Respect and Divine,

 

Mike Keenor

 

 

 

--------------------------------

Dear Sadaks,

In the first instance, Do good to others ONLY when repeadly asked

for. vasita Rishi in Dasaratha kingdom is Guru. Dasaratha attempted

many ways to have child. Everything failed. He asked Guru what can

he do? Guru said Do Puthra Kamesti Yog and you will have children

definetely. Dasaratha said, " Why have you not told me earlier

Guru? " . Guru said you have not asked me till now. Only ask then Do

good. Mother Drowpathi cried for Sri Krishna` s help while being

disrobed, Bagavan came to rescue.

Secondly when evil is returned for good just ignore as the Pala of

action is not your. It is Sri Krishna` s. Also when one can make

differance of Pala as Good or evil, he is still in ignorance.

Thirdly never ever think that for evil done in return for good has

to be repented by the evil doer. Vasudeva Sarvam Mayam. The doer and

the receipent are one and the same. By thinking the evil doer will

repent one day or other, you are showing supramacy over the evil

doer and your Chita (Buddhi) becomes Ashudh (poluted)

Do good at mind level or physically only when asked for. Sometimes

good done turns to be harmful to the other. Besides where comes the

question of doership.

Jai Sri Krishna

 

baiya sathyanarayan

 

--------------------------------

 

Respected Vyas Ji,

 

I fully agree and believe with all the four points given by

you i.e.

 

1 The evil doer loses his capacity itself to do evil to you.

2 Evil Doer will repent. Will cry. Will suffer.

3. Nothing wrong will happen to you

4 As against one person doing evil to you, many others will come to

your rescue.

 

I have always believed this world works on the principle

that every action has an equal and opposite reaction i.e. whatever

we do comes back to us sometime , somewhere , somehow.

 

But Why then the evil is increasing and goodness is

decreasing in this world. We find people instead of being selfless

are becoming selfish by each passing generations, moral values are

going down, educated people (like Mr. Sarphod ) are questioning the

existence of GOD , all around us we find more evil than goodness (Mr

Sarphod, i am not referring to you as evil but people in general

including myself) ) . Anger, jealousy, greed these negative

feelings are more prominent in people these days (I don't categorize

people as good or bad , I believe nobody in today's time including

myself is 100 % GOOD OR 100% BAD )but the negative traits are

increasing by the day.

 

How can we then say that evil doer loses his capacity itself to do

evil.

 

Could it be because when our evil deeds come back to us we are not

able to relate them with our wrong doings done earlier and instead

name them as BAD KISMET .

 

Vandana

 

 

 

 

 

--------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

 

Indeed, as Mike would often say, Swamiji had capacity " to look into

the souls " of us. Now a statement like this can only touch your

soul. Why this statement only? - I have found so many such

statements holding true in actual life and getting manifested before

you EXACTLY when you need or rather when Paramatma felt you needed !

A dozen at least of such laws and principles, diverse/ touching your

life in different ways , which I can list!

 

Swamiji was indeed Crown Jewel of your " Beloved " .

This statement of Swamiji (Taat Shree) has many facets-

 

1 The evil doer loses his capacity itself to do evil to you.

 

I don't know how it happens. May be " conscience " has something to do

with it. ( What according to you can be the reason Dear Sadhaks?

Brother Mike?)

 

But I know most certainly that it never fails to happen. It is my

direct personal experience, not with one person but at least with

dozen people who in my bad (?) phase , in different ways, at

different times, under different pretexts, giving different

reasons, did evil to me. ( O God ! In bad times even your cloths

become your enemies).

 

Another reason I can think of is again Swamiji's principle only -

" If you misutilise any thing, you lose that thing. " He would often

say if an Employer deals badly with good employee, next time he WILL

NOT get good employee. Why? How? I don't know. But I know it is true.

 

Another reason I now think is that God wanted me to realise the

truth. He washes our eyes with tears till they are clean enough to

behold the reality.

 

2 Evil Doer will repent. Will cry. Will suffer.

 

As you sow so shall you reap. History proves it right.

What perplexes me is the timing.(May be because one can at least

tend to wait, what else aggrieved can do. But this " wait " is not

good, experience has taught me that)

 

Is there any thing which governs the timing? I don't know. But my

personal experience teaches me- it is faster if you forgive and stop

considering him to be evil. On this I have no doubt. If you keep

your wounds green and unhealed- the evil doer will not, AT LEAST to

you, " appear " to be repenting. An honest remark by me based on

personal experience. The moment you forgive and forget, suddenly and

unexpectedly you hear the news of his sufferring. Any comments Mike

about your experience or my experience? Fellow Sadhaks? This is my

personal experience.

 

3. Nothing wrong will happen to you

 

No doubt about that ! Timing ? Yes ! But I feel for the aggrieved

it doesn't matter. He is too busy fighting. He loses the sense of

timing. I wonder if he believes at that point that he is into bad

times. I feel only today that I was unto terrible waters at that

time. I did not feel so then. I don't know why. Any comments Mike?

Dear fellow sadhaks?

 

4 As against one person doing evil to you, many others will come to

your rescue.

 

I can give many examples from my personal experience in life that it

happened. Strangers help. Those who you in the past considered as

bad or enemies help. Nature helps. Circumstances help. The most weak

otherwise, they help. Help definitely comes without even soliciting

and it comes in abundance. No doubt on that.

 

Only thing which aggrieved should conquer and that takes time (

again my personal experience only) is to forget and forgive the evil

doers. Baba! It is rather very very difficult. If one prays, one

should always pray to be able to forgive. I don't know why it is

difficult. May be ego has something to do with it.

 

What do you say sadhaks ? Is it difficult? Why it is difficult ?

Today it is not so for me. But in the past, it was terribly

difficult. Most of the mental agonies which I suffered were in fact

due to that only and not due to evil done actually to me by evil

doer or because of the results of that evilness.

 

And then comes the " blaming " . Who do you blame? That also is a very

painful phase. I feel today, may be in retrospect, that in blaming

you always incur a sin. Blame is sin in itself.

 

Says Taat Shree- You have not forgiven, if you become happy, even

subtly and internally, when you hear the news of suffering of evil

doer !! Acid Test !!! Some of such tests which He prescribed , they

kill your ego decisively. They are simple but absolutely difficult.

They are difficult but in fact very very simple. Forgive and

forget !!

 

Another principle which I practiced, based on Great Swamiji, was

to " do good " , if opportunity arises, to the very evil doer.( God

gives you such opportunities, quite often. Another personal

experience) . Great results come of that Karma. Believe me on that.

It helps you in forgiving and forgetting. I remember I did good but

inside my heart I thought that as revenge while doing. But later on

I forgot. I forgot without even realising.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

 

 

-------------------------------

Namaskar,

We should not do good thinking/expecting others to to do good to us.

If we do good without any expectations, it will have effect on

others,

including the evil nature people, in the long run.

With respects

Sunil K. Thusu

 

-------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

-Shree Hari-

 

The last paragraph touches on something that is often missed by

modern

society. If someone 'throws dirty water in ones face', in return for

ones kindness and compassion, in truth it is they who suffer.

When I observe such people, I feel compassion, all that spiteful

energy gives them a painful and wretched life, their world is

different from mine , their world is filled with idiots, and nasty

people, mine is filled with wise and beautiful people.

 

As always I enjoy the posts. With Respect and Divine Love,

 

Mike Keenor

 

-------------------------------

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Ram Ram

------------------------

 

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Shree Hari

Ram Ram

 

In today's sadhak posting, " Discharge of Duty leads to Salvation and

Freedom from Suffering, " in the last paragraph Swamiji has stated -

 

" Here a doubt may arise that we do good to others but others instead

of doing good to us, do evil to us, then how will 'parasparam

bhavayantah'(serve each other selflessly through one's duty) be

applicable? The answer is that if we do good to others, others will

not be able to do evil to us. They will have no power to do evil to

us. Even if they do evil to us, they will repent for it afterwards

and

will lament for it. If they do evil to us; there will be many others

to do good to us and to sympathize with us. In fact there is no

ordinance anywhere to do evil to anyone. A man because of aversion

(dislikes, hate) does evil to others. " Parasparam bhavayantah " (serve

each other selflessly through one's duty). This is humanity and it

applies to mankind. Due to the lack of " Parasparam bhavayantah "

(selfless spirit through one's duties), man is suffering. "

 

From " The Bhagavad Gita - Sadhak Sanjivani " in English pg 288-289

and in Hindi page 165 by Swami Ramsukhdasji

 

To read the entire message please visit:

sadhaka/message/2149

 

PLEASE KINDLY PRESENT YOUR THOUGHTS, questions, doubts, affirmations

with reference to this message.

 

Gita Talk Moderator

Ram Ram

-------------------------------

NEW POSTING

 

Hare Krishna

 

Yes Mikeji, it certainly gives validation and support to me. Yours

and Vyasji's posts will help me when I go through the phase which

you referred to as 'transition of spirit'. Thank you very much....

Hare Krishna

Varun P. Paprunia

--------------------------------

Dear Sadhaks, Namaste!

Let us look at this in another way " discharge of duty leads to

salvation and freedom from suffering " .

Suppose in a small village total population of 100 people are

living. They went to listen to the discourse given by a saint

travelling through the village. Saint mentioned " discharge your duty

to your family and fellow beings, and you all will be free from

suffering.

Now if all of them do it, then there is no suffering people, right?

In duty, one of the most important elements is to do wothout being a

doer of acts, but with everything one has, and then accept the

result as prasadam. Such a one is already free!

Sounds hypothetical? sure is in today's world. But the intention of

Swamiji is conveyed in this example as is always the intention when

any Saint, any time, any where, has spoken.

It is for everyone to follow.

If someone does evil acts, majority of people will come to rescue,

and most of the times apparant victoms get saved. People rush to

help others in man made disasters or natural disasters. Aren't they

discharging duties even when they are not realized?

There is never an evil person, of course there are acts that emerge

from ignorance. When I think I am separate from the rest of the

mankind, then only there is a possibility for conflict and therefore

evil actions, for likes and dislikes, attachments and aversions, and

others such pairs of imagined opposites.

If I am Whole and everyone and everything(Vasudevam Sarvam), there

is no possibility of relating to another and therefore no evility

either! All happenings are natural done by Me and for Me and to Me!

J. Krishnamurti used to say " You are the World and World is you " .

Please realize the Truth of this, it is not hypothetical! By and

large there are many many good people around even these days that

the world is functioning as it is and World Consciousness is

evolving to higher and higher level.

What worst can happen to Saints like Jesus, say, other than

sacrificing a body which he knew he never was? The body-mind is

manifest instrument(like PBS) of God announcing messages like

Swamiji's to lead us to the shores of ultimate fulfilment!

Namaskar..........Pratap Bhatt

 

 

 

--------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Dear sadak

1) The evil doer loses his capacity itself to do evil to you.

Reply:

 

a) Who is your evil doer? The doer and you are one and the

same as Vasudeva Sarvam. It is evil (element of bad thought) in a

person. So it is not the person himself evil. Ex: A muslim was

reapeatedly spitting at Sant Ekanath on Ekadasi day. Sant just

ignored. The muslim got fed up as there was no reaction to his

doing. He fell at Sant feet. Ekanath said to the man, " Your Kuran

teaches that external (Shudhi) cleanliness and internal cleanliness

both required to see God. So you were only spitting at me polluting

my body each when I came back after bath. But if had I got angry on

you, my internal clealiness would have gone. If my Chit becomes

dirty with angry words, it is difficult to clean it (mind) " . No any

action Evil retreated.

 

b) Christ was crucified, But HE said to his father pardon the evil

doer as they know not what they are doing. Here the evil brought

death to Christ as it is happening these days. But such great

cleaniness Christ had, HE came back with Austrial body, to prove

that body and soul are differant. Here Christ Prarabdha was over on

earth, so went to heavens. Action was done by Christ to impart

knowledge to ignorant people who opposed him. So crucification took

place.

 

c) Adi Sankara was taken secretly by Kabali head to be beheaded.

Sankara bowed down offering his head for the killing. But will of

God that one of Sanakars disciple came at that time. Seeing this,

the disciple got cosmic energy that he killed the Kabali by his

fingers. Sankara saw this and sang Nurashima Storam, the disciple

came back to normal. Sankara Prarabdha is not over, so he had to

live. Thus rescued.

 

d) Pandavas were cheated by Duryodan and Sakuni evil mind in playing

gambling and sent Pandavas to forest 14 years of suffering. Why?

Here Pandavas (yudistra) made of mistake of commiting one of the

Pancha Maha Padakam (One of the five great sins) gambling. So there

was No rescue.

 

2. Evil Doer will repent. Will cry. Will suffer. There is NO

question evil doer will repent. Once evil in a person vacates, the

person by himself (Athuman which was wittness) punishes the body in

which Athuman exists. .. Like the person who betrayed Christ for

silver coins. Like Buddha said, " Do not take abuses to be at you.

Then the same abuses bounces back to the sender like a ball thrown

against a wall " . In upanashids it is said, " a person doing evil to

you, is doing Good to you by taking off your sins done knowingly or

unknowingly " . Ex:1) In Garuda Puran-- There was woman not getting

married. A sant (saint) came for Biksha saw the lady weeping and

knew her problem. Sant said to the lady daily sit just outside your

house with your father and talk happily, your marriage will settle

soon. Lady never questioned the concept. People passing by use to

pass different comments that the girl and father are behaving

indecently. Those people took away the sins of that girl done in her

earlier birth and she soon got married.

 

a) A prostitute was to be stoned to death by some persons. Christ

interfered and said, " Those who have not sinned can cast stones at

the lady first " . Once their evil was illumined in their mind they

droped the stones. So the evil is differant from evil doer.

 

3. Nothing. wrong will happen to you. That is NOT a guarantee.

Guarantee is nothing wrong happens is to your Athuman, As Bagavan

said in Geetha that Athuman is non-destructable.. We saw totally

innocent Cooly at Mumbai railway station killed by terrorist. The

cooly and the terrorist have no connection. People killed by

carelessness by driver. Driver and people got killed have no

connection. Same time they were people just came out of Taj few

minutes earlier to blast, got saved. Something happening to us or

not depends on our Prarabdha Karmas which is arrow out from Bow,

this is said in Vivekachdani. Refer Dasaratha death with Sri Rama

seperation, where Dasaratha killed a boy by mistake in woods and the

boys parents cursed Dasratha death to come years later.

 

4 As against one person doing evil to you, many others will come to

your rescue. No only GOD can rescue one through others. When

Jarasandh waged war with Sri Krishna, people said that it is not

their look out, as it is purely enmity between Sri Krishana and

Jarasand. How much Sri Krishna had done for those people? Christ was

crucified, but the entire crowd stayed behind fearing death. How

much Christ done for them? Mahathuma Gandhi done untold good to our

nation. Are we celebrating his birthday as that of today`s

ministers? We do our Karma as Sarvam Sri Krishna Arpanam and never

expect someone to save us.

 

Humble request, pardon me where ever I am wrong.

Jai Sri Krishna

baiya sathyanarayan

-----------------------

-Shree Hari-

 

Brother Vyas,

 

 

I will continue my response to your post, as you invited comment

from me.

Comment 4:(continued) Blame, some people seem to waste enormous

emotional energy trying to apportion blame, it appears as a vane

attempt to divert any personal involvement in an unfavorable event.

What I see of the constant blamers, is, they do incur sin for sure,

always trying to point score, they seem to be horrible people who no

one likes.

 

I am in the position now, that someone who did terrible things to me,

told terrible lies, is now almost completely in our care, (my wife

and I).

A very nice Sikh lady we know ask how this person was doing quite

some time

back, we told her, I then looked at this lady, shook my head and

said, " There's

an awful lot of Karma here " .

I could see the unfolding, and dear Sadhaks, I got no pleasure from

this unfolding. What I feel is a sadness, for what could have been.

 

Vyasji from your post, and others of yours, it is clear that you have

gone through a transition of the spirit, as I have, I think it is

important to mention these things when appropriate, it will give

validation and support to others.

 

With Respect and Divine Love,

 

Mike Keenor

-------------------------------

Dear Sadaks,

 

Ref: Vandana.

 

Evil will grow day by day more folds. It is bound to happen as

Bagavan said

about Kaliyug. Just concentrate on Bagavan do not see world. Do not

think you

want to do good until it is asked for, and forget the action done

immediately

and keep your concentration on God. The more you see evil the more

the mind will

sympathize and concentration lost.

 

In tretha Yug Mother Seethas torchered by Ravana, Sri Krishna mother

Devi and

Vasu dev was torchered. Now it is in multifold. Your aim is to get

out from

here and not see what is happening. Jai Sri Krishna

 

baiya sathyanarayan

 

-------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

Hari Om

Vandanaji ! A good question indeed !

 

There are two things.

 

One- your propensity to do evil.

 

Two- your capacity to do evil.

 

You may have desire to do something but you may not have capacity

to do something. The evil doer " tries " /

even " attempts " / " wishes/wants/desires " to do evil to you- but " can

not do evil to you " . He loses his very capacity to impact you or

cause results to you.

 

Your entire narration is by and large with reference

to " desire/attempt/wish/want/try " of evil doer and not his capacity

to do evil or cause harm to you. The distinction between the two is

of something like the distinction between karma and result and

extends/tilts towards the capacity of your doing karma. But the

desire to cause evil remains a separate thing.

 

Hence increase in evil doers are reflective of

desires/propensities/attempts of the evil doer and not of his

capacity to do the same in effect and thus cause harm to others.

 

Hope this is clear. Next time, I shall of course attempt to answer

your questions with reference to the propensities/desires/causes in

control, of the evil doer.

 

Last para is irrelevant to the above. It is a separate matter

altogether. I shall touch upon that too next time.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

 

Vyas N B

--------------------------------

 

 

-Shree Hari-

 

 

Before I go any further I will paste a piece from " The prophet " by

Kahlil Gibran:

'Your pain is the breaking of the shell that encloses your

understanding.

Even as the stone of the fruit must break, that its heart may stand

in

the sun, so you must know pain.'

This lyrical observation by Kahlil Gibran, reflects the wisdom of

Swamiji when he referred to the benefits of unfavorable circumstance.

Comment 1: The evil doer loses his capacity itself to do evil to

you...

I believe that is correct, if one transcends the knee jerk nature,

then something profound happens, but it has to be genuine, you are

thus not contaminated by the evil doers poison.

Look there is a day of reckoning, that comes upon a person when

divine

grace touches her/him, it is a blessing but is full of anguish.

Even though we may be living a righteous life, what dark murky past

have we lived before?...

....I remember starting to say I'm sorry over and over again, then

tears then screams, then a feeling that, as it were, I wanted to turn

myself inside out, (the stone had broken). Impossible to be the same

again.

Remember, as far as I know I have not done any real harm to anyone,

BUT my soul knows otherwise.

The principle of not to mis-utilise, is I think cosmic in proportion,

and is highly transcendent, from the mundane to the profound.

 

Comment 2: (As you sow so shall you reap. History proves it right).

It is quite evident that this is true, if one has hate burnt out of

him/her then what is there to forgive, you watch in a kind of sorrow

as their history turns into hell. Of course one learns from these

events, filed under Wisdom.

 

Comment 3: I am having a little trouble getting my head around that

one. Apart from the fact that those who wished to harm me, in the

long run did not, every thing worked out as good as it could.

 

Comment 4: A quick and humorous obsevation. When I was in my military

training many years ago, (it was brutal), there was a trainee ahead

of my entry. He had a huge scare on his face, very gaunt and swarthy,

looked like a Gypsy, and I used to think, " I better keep well out of

of this fellas way he looks lethal " .

In the fullness of time I was posted to a certain electronic

servicing establishment. Yes there he was, yes he was of Romany

stock. He was a gentleman, definitely helped me when I needed it,

taught some Romany knowledge about wild food, he was a pleasure to

work with.

 

Behind the scenes I think Baba who loves us, his children, and by

looking to Him the beloved, we will progress.

 

Vyasji I have answered these points you put to me off the cuff.

Although I sense Gitaji all around this thread.

 

With Respect and Divine,

 

Mike Keenor

 

 

 

--------------------------------

Dear Sadaks,

In the first instance, Do good to others ONLY when repeadly asked

for. vasita Rishi in Dasaratha kingdom is Guru. Dasaratha attempted

many ways to have child. Everything failed. He asked Guru what can

he do? Guru said Do Puthra Kamesti Yog and you will have children

definetely. Dasaratha said, " Why have you not told me earlier

Guru? " . Guru said you have not asked me till now. Only ask then Do

good. Mother Drowpathi cried for Sri Krishna` s help while being

disrobed, Bagavan came to rescue.

Secondly when evil is returned for good just ignore as the Pala of

action is not your. It is Sri Krishna` s. Also when one can make

differance of Pala as Good or evil, he is still in ignorance.

Thirdly never ever think that for evil done in return for good has

to be repented by the evil doer. Vasudeva Sarvam Mayam. The doer and

the receipent are one and the same. By thinking the evil doer will

repent one day or other, you are showing supramacy over the evil

doer and your Chita (Buddhi) becomes Ashudh (poluted)

Do good at mind level or physically only when asked for. Sometimes

good done turns to be harmful to the other. Besides where comes the

question of doership.

Jai Sri Krishna

 

baiya sathyanarayan

 

--------------------------------

 

Respected Vyas Ji,

 

I fully agree and believe with all the four points given by

you i.e.

 

1 The evil doer loses his capacity itself to do evil to you.

2 Evil Doer will repent. Will cry. Will suffer.

3. Nothing wrong will happen to you

4 As against one person doing evil to you, many others will come to

your rescue.

 

I have always believed this world works on the principle

that every action has an equal and opposite reaction i.e. whatever

we do comes back to us sometime , somewhere , somehow.

 

But Why then the evil is increasing and goodness is

decreasing in this world. We find people instead of being selfless

are becoming selfish by each passing generations, moral values are

going down, educated people (like Mr. Sarphod ) are questioning the

existence of GOD , all around us we find more evil than goodness (Mr

Sarphod, i am not referring to you as evil but people in general

including myself) ) . Anger, jealousy, greed these negative

feelings are more prominent in people these days (I don't categorize

people as good or bad , I believe nobody in today's time including

myself is 100 % GOOD OR 100% BAD )but the negative traits are

increasing by the day.

 

How can we then say that evil doer loses his capacity itself to do

evil.

 

Could it be because when our evil deeds come back to us we are not

able to relate them with our wrong doings done earlier and instead

name them as BAD KISMET .

 

Vandana

 

 

 

 

 

--------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

 

Indeed, as Mike would often say, Swamiji had capacity " to look into

the souls " of us. Now a statement like this can only touch your

soul. Why this statement only? - I have found so many such

statements holding true in actual life and getting manifested before

you EXACTLY when you need or rather when Paramatma felt you needed !

A dozen at least of such laws and principles, diverse/ touching your

life in different ways , which I can list!

 

Swamiji was indeed Crown Jewel of your " Beloved " .

This statement of Swamiji (Taat Shree) has many facets-

 

1 The evil doer loses his capacity itself to do evil to you.

 

I don't know how it happens. May be " conscience " has something to do

with it. ( What according to you can be the reason Dear Sadhaks?

Brother Mike?)

 

But I know most certainly that it never fails to happen. It is my

direct personal experience, not with one person but at least with

dozen people who in my bad (?) phase , in different ways, at

different times, under different pretexts, giving different

reasons, did evil to me. ( O God ! In bad times even your cloths

become your enemies).

 

Another reason I can think of is again Swamiji's principle only -

" If you misutilise any thing, you lose that thing. " He would often

say if an Employer deals badly with good employee, next time he WILL

NOT get good employee. Why? How? I don't know. But I know it is true.

 

Another reason I now think is that God wanted me to realise the

truth. He washes our eyes with tears till they are clean enough to

behold the reality.

 

2 Evil Doer will repent. Will cry. Will suffer.

 

As you sow so shall you reap. History proves it right.

What perplexes me is the timing.(May be because one can at least

tend to wait, what else aggrieved can do. But this " wait " is not

good, experience has taught me that)

 

Is there any thing which governs the timing? I don't know. But my

personal experience teaches me- it is faster if you forgive and stop

considering him to be evil. On this I have no doubt. If you keep

your wounds green and unhealed- the evil doer will not, AT LEAST to

you, " appear " to be repenting. An honest remark by me based on

personal experience. The moment you forgive and forget, suddenly and

unexpectedly you hear the news of his sufferring. Any comments Mike

about your experience or my experience? Fellow Sadhaks? This is my

personal experience.

 

3. Nothing wrong will happen to you

 

No doubt about that ! Timing ? Yes ! But I feel for the aggrieved

it doesn't matter. He is too busy fighting. He loses the sense of

timing. I wonder if he believes at that point that he is into bad

times. I feel only today that I was unto terrible waters at that

time. I did not feel so then. I don't know why. Any comments Mike?

Dear fellow sadhaks?

 

4 As against one person doing evil to you, many others will come to

your rescue.

 

I can give many examples from my personal experience in life that it

happened. Strangers help. Those who you in the past considered as

bad or enemies help. Nature helps. Circumstances help. The most weak

otherwise, they help. Help definitely comes without even soliciting

and it comes in abundance. No doubt on that.

 

Only thing which aggrieved should conquer and that takes time (

again my personal experience only) is to forget and forgive the evil

doers. Baba! It is rather very very difficult. If one prays, one

should always pray to be able to forgive. I don't know why it is

difficult. May be ego has something to do with it.

 

What do you say sadhaks ? Is it difficult? Why it is difficult ?

Today it is not so for me. But in the past, it was terribly

difficult. Most of the mental agonies which I suffered were in fact

due to that only and not due to evil done actually to me by evil

doer or because of the results of that evilness.

 

And then comes the " blaming " . Who do you blame? That also is a very

painful phase. I feel today, may be in retrospect, that in blaming

you always incur a sin. Blame is sin in itself.

 

Says Taat Shree- You have not forgiven, if you become happy, even

subtly and internally, when you hear the news of suffering of evil

doer !! Acid Test !!! Some of such tests which He prescribed , they

kill your ego decisively. They are simple but absolutely difficult.

They are difficult but in fact very very simple. Forgive and

forget !!

 

Another principle which I practiced, based on Great Swamiji, was

to " do good " , if opportunity arises, to the very evil doer.( God

gives you such opportunities, quite often. Another personal

experience) . Great results come of that Karma. Believe me on that.

It helps you in forgiving and forgetting. I remember I did good but

inside my heart I thought that as revenge while doing. But later on

I forgot. I forgot without even realising.

 

Jai Shree Krishna

Vyas N B

 

 

-------------------------------

Namaskar,

We should not do good thinking/expecting others to to do good to us.

If we do good without any expectations, it will have effect on

others,

including the evil nature people, in the long run.

With respects

Sunil K. Thusu

 

-------------------------------

PRIOR POSTING

-Shree Hari-

 

The last paragraph touches on something that is often missed by

modern

society. If someone 'throws dirty water in ones face', in return for

ones kindness and compassion, in truth it is they who suffer.

When I observe such people, I feel compassion, all that spiteful

energy gives them a painful and wretched life, their world is

different from mine , their world is filled with idiots, and nasty

people, mine is filled with wise and beautiful people.

 

As always I enjoy the posts. With Respect and Divine Love,

 

Mike Keenor

 

-------------------------------

GITA TALK GROUP GUIDELINES:

1. Purpose of the group is to help Sadhakas clarify their doubts

related to Gitaji shlokas. Therefore, responses which further

clarify the understanding of Gitaji, will only be posted.

2. Wherever possible, please quote Gitaji or other scriptures to

substantiate your response.

3. Kindly limit personal feelings, opinions, beliefs etc. to the

extent that they further help in understanding the Gita shlokas

4. Please be as concise and to the point as possible, respecting

sadhaka's time.

5. Kindly focus your writing to the subject at hand only.

6. Please do not include links to the other sites or other

organizations.

7. Kindly do not include your personal information such as phone

number, address etc.

8. Please do not address the response to a particular individual

since the message is going to the entire group.

9. Due to the large readership, all responses may not be posted.

10. Moderator at his discretion, may modify the posting, if content

is unclear or not appropriate for distribution to the group.

11. Please respond taking into consideration the novices, youth,

westerners, non-sectarian audience. Kindly limit the use to Sanskrit

words only, rather provide the English word with Sanskrit bracketed

wherever possible.

 

MODERATOR

Ram Ram

------------------------

 

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